127 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb0a875e02ce5184d06d2a910b2fa55b.jpg d94de9645816965072ce76d4ff40a0a7 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b48e9839c6ee7f18e91be4ab97325ba1.mp3 9586fe3e50ac3b9987e6ccb27c791827 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dirck Halstead, 1936-2022 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dirk Halstead is a photojournalist, editor, and publisher of The Digital Journalist. Halstead started photojournalism in high school and at the age of 17, he worked with Life Magazine to cover the Guatemalan Civil War. He worked at United Press International (UPI) for 15 years after attending Haverford College. He has dedicated his life to photography and has created some great pieces of work.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dirck Halstead (1936-2022) was a photojournalist, editor, and publisher of <em>The Digital Journalist</em>. Halstead started photojournalism in high school and at the age of 17, he worked with <em>Life</em> Magazine to cover the Guatemalan Civil War. He worked at United Press International (UPI) for 15 years after attending Haverford College. He has dedicated his life to photography and has created some great pieces of work.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Photojournalists; Editors; Publishers; Halstead, Dirck, 1936--Interviews Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 118:45 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Photojournalism; Vietnam; United Press International (UPI); Military draft; Tet Offensive; End of the Vietnam War; Dangers of Photographing War; Racism; Sexism; Drug Culture; Beatles; Rolling Stones; Apocalypse Now (film); Platoon (film); Richard Nixon; China; United States Military; Draft; Harry Truman; Dwight D. Eisenhower.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Photojournalism; Vietnam; United Press International (UPI); Military draft; Tet Offensive; End of the Vietnam War; Dangers of Photographing War; Racism; Sexism; Drug Culture; Beatles; Rolling Stones; Apocalypse Now (film); Platoon (film); Richard Nixon; China; United States Military; Draft; Harry Truman; Dwight D. Eisenhower.</span> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dirck Halstead Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 14 November 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing one, two, three. First off, first question I have been asking most of the second half of the people that I have interviewed is, how did you become who you are as a photo journalist? Really, how did you start so young at the age of 17, I believe? DH (00:00:23): Well, I was given a camera by my parents for Christmas when I guess I was 15. It was a Kodak [inaudible]. And the thing that made the difference was they gave me a little dark room outfit with it, which allowed you to make contact prints. That was the thing that got me hooked, the ability to make prints, back before digital, of course. So I started taking the camera to school and making pictures of the kids and bringing the prints back and they loved them. Within a year, I was the official photographer for the school. So at that time I had talked my parents into giving me a two-and-a-quarter by three-and-a-quarter speed graphic. By the time I was in my senior year in high school, I was working on a part-time basis for a local newspaper. The local newspaper was owned by a guy named Carl Tucker in Bedford Village, New York. It had been a weekly newspaper. So I volunteered to take pictures for him and set up a dark room in the newspaper office, and he gave me $5 a picture for every picture that was run. Well, over the course of sixth months, he bought six other newspapers. SM (00:02:21): Wow. DH (00:02:24): All of a sudden I was shooting for seven newspapers and I was the only photographer. So that $5 per picture started to multiply and I was making real money. I was 17 years old and I was pulling in a couple hundred dollars a week. SM (00:02:53): Wow. DH (00:02:53): Taking these pictures. During the course of that spring, I went down to Washington to photograph the Army McCarthy Hearings, and would stay there on the day that Joseph Welch said, "Finally, sir, have you, no sense of shame." SM (00:03:19): Remember that very well. DH (00:03:21): Photographed that. And I have been through a series of circumstances, I wound up several weeks later going to Guatemala as part of a student expedition to build some schools, which resulted in my being the first, the youngest war correspondent Life Magazine ever had. SM (00:03:51): Wow. Quite an experience. Can you describe your parents? Who were your parents and what were the role models you had as a young person? What was it like going to your high school and actually, what were your college days like in Haverford, because that is not far from where I live? I have known several graduates of Haverford. DH (00:04:13): Yeah. Is that feedback I am getting? SM (00:04:18): Oh, no, I am fine. DH (00:04:20): No, I seem to hear feedback coming on the line. SM (00:04:22): I do not know. DH (00:04:22): Okay. Anyway. My parents were probably the perfect hybrid for being my parents. My mother was an advertising agency executive, and my father was a telecommunications engineer. So that is the mix I came out of. SM (00:04:54): What was it like going to college there at Haverford? What was college like then? DH (00:05:00): Well, I will tell you quite honestly, I did not pay much attention to it because I had just got my first story in Life Magazine, and I really was not the slightest bit interested in Haverford. And so the main thing I did was I started a photo service at Haverford. I set up a dark room in the biology building and pretty much did my own thing for a year. I would say I was not really participating much in the Haverford lifestyle. SM (00:05:52): Now, did you graduate from Haverford? DH (00:05:55): I did not. I did not graduate. SM (00:05:57): Okay. When you- DH (00:06:01): No, [inaudible] at the end of the first year. SM (00:06:02): Oh, okay. One of the other things I was reading about your background, you were the UPI's Bureau Chief in Vietnam. Some of the questions I have about there from when to when, did you do that and how did you secure this position, and what did the job entail? DH (00:06:21): Well, I did Haverford for a year, and then I was offered a job by UPI in Dallas, Texas at the Dallas Times Herald. So I worked at the Dallas Times Herald for two years as a general assignment photographer. When I got to be, I guess, 19, I was drafted like everybody else being drafted in those days. That resulted in actually the best job I ever had. When I got my draft notice, I ran into another photographer named Don Uhrbrock, who was a Life photographer, who had just gotten out of the Army. We met at a Cotton Bowl game in Dallas. He said, "Well, listen, you ought to go see General Clifton." General Clifton at that time was the chief of information for Department of the Army. So I just called General Clifton's office and I made an appointment. On my way back to New York to go to Fort Dix for basic training, I just popped into the Pentagon with a portfolio, and I showed him my portfolio. Obviously, I have been recommended by Don Uhrbrock and he said, "Well, how did you like a job?" I said, "Well, great. What do I do?" He said, "All you do is when you get in basic training, you send me a postcard and you tell me what your serial number is and when you are expected out of basic, and I will take care of the rest." SM (00:08:35): Wow. DH (00:08:35): I will never forget, there was this major who was sitting outside the general's office, and he looked at me as I came out of the general's office and he said, "Kid, let me get this straight, you just got drafted and you just came in to show your portfolio?" I said, "Yeah, it seems to work." Sure enough, for the next two years, I had the best job ever. I was the chief photographer of the Department of the Army and wrote my own orders and traveled all over the world. SM (00:09:15): Wow. DH (00:09:15): Did all these different stories. Lived in a great apartment in Arlington. Never wore a uniform. SM (00:09:25): Oh my goodness. DH (00:09:25): So I had a great time in the Army. SM (00:09:30): Now you went to Vietnam as the UPI Bureau chief? DH (00:09:35): Yeah. There is some feedback I keep getting. After two years working for the Army, I went back to UPI, I first went back to UPI in Washington, and I was there for about six months, then I went to New York and I staffed UPI for New York for about six or eight months. And then I became a picture Bureau chief in Philadelphia. I was there for two years. Then in 1965, I got ready to send the Marine to Vietnam, and I was assigned as the Picture Bureau chief Saigon. SM (00:10:37): Wow. DH (00:10:38): [inaudible] Operation. SM (00:10:39): Wow. DH (00:10:40): I was there for two years. SM (00:10:45): Did you oversee many other photographers, or were you the photographer? DH (00:10:49): Yep, I was the Picture Bureau chief. I went out and I shot, but I also ran the bureau. SM (00:10:58): What were your personal feelings about that war when you went over there? Some people, when they first went, depending on whether you served in the military or were in other capacities, the early years, which you would say (19)64, (19)65 years were a lot different than the (19)67, (19)71 years, early on what were your thoughts about the war when you first arrived, and then what were your thoughts when you left? DH (00:11:27): Well, I photographed the first US Marines arriving on China Beach in March of (19)65. And I also photographed the last US Marines leaving in 1975. SM (00:11:44): Wow. DH (00:11:45): From the roof of the embassy. SM (00:11:45): Yes. DH (00:11:48): So I saw the whole hill. Actually, it was very exciting. We had a lot of mobility in those days, and you could go anywhere and do anything. Helicopters, boats, jeeps, everything was available to you. You could get on transport at the drop of the hat, go anywhere you wanted to go and get back to Saigon at the end of the day for a nice drink on the shelf of the Continental Palace. It was a great story. The US experience of the troops and Vietnam was a gradual learning curve for the first few months. This was a great, wonderful experiment in the use of the military. Everybody was having a great time. They were getting to test all the new weapons, and the leaders were gung ho. It was not for almost a year before US troops really began to be sucked into situations where they could no longer prevail. Then it became a very serious business. I think that the people who had been photographing or writing about Vietnam prior to March of 1965, had a much better perspective on how difficult this was going to be because they understood the tactics of Vietnam. They understood the corruption that existed within the South Vietnamese. Most of what we call the old hand, were very pessimistic right from the beginning. But for most of the new arrivals, people like me, we were just having a great time and we just were happy as it could be. SM (00:14:48): Would you say that this learning curve that the people you talked about, but even your learning curve as a professional photographer over there from early on, is when you look at (19)65, then you look at Tet in (19)68, and then you look at 1975, the helicopters going off the roof, those are three monumental happenings in this whole phase. Would you agree with that? Were you there with Tet? DH (00:15:18): I was not there at Tet. I was on home leave during Tet, but I was certainly there for the beginning and the end. Yeah. I mean, everything totally changed. But to this day, I do not believe that that war had to end the way it ended. The reason why I say that is because we walked away from Vietnam. The Congress stopped appropriating and by March of 1975, the North Vietnamese were pretty well shocked. The bombing offensives had been very effective, especially the Christmas bombing offensive. They had been cut off by China, they had been cut off by Russia. They were not getting their supplies anymore, and they were not in a good position. The way it all fell is that the North Vietnamese decided that they would launch an experimental offensive in the Highlands at a place called Ban Me Thuot. So they assembled an overwhelming force for this little place, and took Ban Me Thuot and started to march down the Highway 19 toward Saigon and the general who was in charge of what we called Free Corps, which is where [inaudible 00:17:36] was, he panicked because actually he had taken prisoner by the North Vietnamese during the French War, and he did not want to become a prisoner again so he got on a helicopter and he just left his headquarters and left it undefended and just told his troops to make their way to Saigon. At the same time, the president of Vietnam panicked, Nguyen Van Thieu, and he pulled the Marines out away and left the South Vietnamese marines trapped on the beach [inaudible] and totally cut off. From that point on, it was all that the North Vietnamese could do to keep up with the retreating troops. It was total complete panic. To this day, I believe that if that general had not bolted from Pleiku actually and if Thieu had not pulled the Marines out of Vietnam, probably it would have wound up with some sort of conciliation government. In fact, the day before Saigon fell, a conciliation government was formed by a guy named Big Ben, and they put up the new colors of this conciliation government. But by that time, it was academic because the tanks were already in Saigon. But no, I have always believed it was a very bad mistake all around from the beginning to end. SM (00:19:53): If you were to be asked, which I am asking now, the main reason why we lost that war, what would your response be? Still there? DH (00:20:19): Yeah. I am thinking. I think it is very easy to blame the media, but after Tet, and specifically after Walter Cronkite turned against Vietnam, that signaled the end of any US public support in the war. There was none. There was no support in Congress. The American people did not believe in it. The news media did not believe in it, and it was a hopeless case. SM (00:21:14): When you looked at McNamara's book, he just passed away this past year, but Robert McNamara's book, "In Retrospect," he had mention in that book that he made mistakes, and then of course, even in McGeorge Bundy's book that came out about six months before he passed away, he was against that war from the get-go, and actually told President Johnson that we should not be there, and it was a mistake. Yet they continued to stay in Vietnam regardless of these attitudes of some of our leaders. Do you put any blame at all on President Johnson, and particularly with the people, Robert McNamara, McGeorge Bundy- DH (00:22:00): Of course, yeah, it was a very bad idea. SM (00:22:10): But that scene where you are taking pictures of the helicopter, I believe it was April 30th, 1975, if I remember correctly, were you inside the facility? Did you get on a helicopter yourself? DH (00:22:28): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. SM (00:22:31): There is all kinds of stories there that the Vietnamese people that were able to leave were friends of the Americans or linked to the Vietnamese military, that a lot of them were left. Of course, we know what happened in Vietnam after the helicopters left with the reeducation camps. There were stories of South Vietnamese troops throwing their uniforms away because they did not want to be identified as that whole thing. When you arrived at the aircraft carrier, what were the scenes like? What was going on there, just firsthand description? DH (00:23:16): Well, by the way, I have written at great length about that whole experience, and it is on the Digital Journalist, and it is called White Christmas. Just go onto Digital Journalist, and it is a very long piece, which goes into great detail. SM (00:23:48): All right. Any short little anecdote you want to say though for the interview? DH (00:23:55): Well, it was total chaos. The group that I left Saigon with came out of the defense attache's office, which was out at Tan Son Nhut. The Marines were busing Americans and Vietnamese from meeting points in downtown Saigon, and they were being bused out to Tan Son Nhut. When they got to Tan Son Nhut, they were taken inside the bowling alley, which was full of Vietnamese and Americans and civilians. Once the Marines established their landing zone, almost immediately these big Chinook helicopters started to come in and they would just hover. They were loading those helicopters as fast as they could. Then everybody was being flown out about 12 miles out to ships in the Gulf. I was landed on the Coral Sea, which was one of about a dozen carriers that were receiving people. What was interesting was that among the helicopters that were coming in were all these South Vietnamese helicopters. What they would do is they would touch down and the South Vietnamese would jump out, and then they would push those helicopters off the ship. In fact, in a couple of occasions, they did not even land. There was one pilot who just ditched his helicopter right next to the carrier, but there were a lot of helicopters thrown overboard that day. SM (00:26:22): Wow. Of course, that was the beginning of the Boat People that we all know what happened afterwards, trying to escape in the thousands and thousands who drowned at sea trying to escape Vietnam. DH (00:26:36): Right. SM (00:26:38): What pictures do you remember most from your time there in Vietnam? Were there any pictures that you took that stood out? Can you describe the exact environment when you took that picture or pictures? DH (00:26:54): You know what, I hate to tell you this, but I have to do it all the time, and every photographer who is interviewed says the same thing. We are very bad when it comes to saying, my favorite picture is... or, I like this picture. We cannot do that. It is something that we are just not wired to do. I cannot objectively discuss my pictures. The only picture I can objectively discuss is the Monica Lewinsky picture. SM (00:27:32): Oh, yes. DH (00:27:32): Other than that, I cannot. SM (00:27:36): But you would say though, you had full access in that war to take pictures, but obviously there was dangers too, that you could have lost your life. Did you know other photographers who lost their lives during the Vietnam War? DH (00:27:52): Yeah, many. Vietnam had the highest casualty rate among photographers of any war in history. SM (00:28:03): Did any of your UPI photographers die? DH (00:28:03): Oh, yeah. Well, in fact, are you by your email right now? SM (00:28:07): No, I am not. DH (00:28:09): Oh. Because I just answered a question to the John Winslow of News Photographer Magazine, who more or less asked me a similar question and I sent him a reply. I will read it to you. I am going to put you on speaker for a minute. SM (00:29:59): Okay. Were the troops well aware of what was going on in America at the time with respect to what many people call the war at home? SM (00:30:03): America at the time with respect to what many people call the war at home, the protests. DH (00:30:04): Oh, yeah-yeah. SM (00:30:07): I have read some novels, and I have also read some books depending on the year, obviously, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s were the greatest amount of protests in America, but what were the troops thinking when they... What part do you believe that played in the war itself? Not only in terms of the feelings that many of the troops had, but the enemy? DH (00:30:33): Well, I think it was encouraging for the enemy, and I think that it was very, very difficult on the troop. It was fighting in those jungles and the common instances of fragging where an enlisted man would throw grenade at an officer, and it was a very volatile situation. There were some units that were much higher performing units, like the Marines, for example, but army draftees. It was a very difficult war for them, and it is a war that they were not prepared to fight. SM (00:31:49): The troops came back to the United States, particularly in the early (19)70s and started the Vietnam veterans against the war, and there were a lot of veterans against the war, I guess, that were serving, especially in that 67 to 71 period when it seemed like chaos was not only in America, but also in Vietnam within the troops. Did you see that as well? Did you actually see troops who were against the war who were actually fighting it? DH (00:32:17): Yes, sure. Yeah, you run into that. As I say, episodes of bragging just were units just would not go out, right? I mean, there was a period during the Christmas bombing offensive over no, where all the B52s stopped flying. They just decided they were not going to get shot down anymore. The North Vietnamese had gotten that down to the science, and they could target those B52s as they would come over the mountains. They were taking them out left and right. At one point, all the B50s in Guam just had a stand down. SM (00:33:15): Did you see all... A lot of the things that were happening in America, not only the protests, but certainly the battles over racism and sexism and the drug culture, the rock music, the sense that government is lying, all these movements that came about in the early (19)70s, were a lot of these things happening within the troops too? The troops were a microcosm of what was going on in America. DH (00:33:47): Yeah, sure. Yeah, especially in 1968, yeah. SM (00:33:52): What was it about (19)68 that made a difference than any other year? DH (00:33:55): Yes, (19)68 was really the crucial year. SM (00:34:01): And could you explain a little further what made it a crucial year or- DH (00:34:07): Everything came together that year. So the war was heavy casualties. The lifestyles of the young people were changing. The Beatles were happening. The Rolling Stones were happening, long hair was happening, drugs were happening. It was the overthrow of what we would think was normal in the society and the general generational conflict. SM (00:34:51): Is there any movie that you feel portrays that era better than any other, because many Vietnam vets have been pretty critical of the movies that have been made on Vietnam. DH (00:35:09): Apocalypse. SM (00:35:11): Apocalypse Now? DH (00:35:14): But that I said, right. From the standpoint of... And if you get the idea, well, this was all just totally nuts. SM (00:35:41): Yeah, also the movie Platoon was one that most Vietnam vets did not like. Why do you think they did not like that film? DH (00:35:51): I think I cannot speak with Vietnam vets. I found Platoon really to be estrin. Platoon is really sort of what we call a TikTok. That is how it was, that is how it was. Emotionally, it has no heft. There are Apocalypse Now. Those crazy people were really there, when all those crazy things, and it was totally out of control. SM (00:36:43): How has the experience in Vietnam differed from any of the other photo experiences you had since that time? What made that unique in itself? DH (00:36:56): Well, first off, Vietnam was "my war". If you talk to most professional journalists who been around for a while, almost all of them have an event that they identify with, and that this was the core event of my life. And for me, Vietnam was that core event. It is what shaped me, it is what shaped all my colleagues. You have to remember, anybody who is anybody or has been anybody in journalism, went through that experience. And rather, Tom broke off. Peter Jennings, Tech Poppel, they all went through Vietnam. They all served their time there, but roughly the same time. And the thing that was unique about Vietnam was that you were very much in control of what you did. In previous wars as World War II, such as Korea, if you were a correspondent or a photographer, you really had no control over where you went. You joined up with some troops and wound up mowing with those troops wherever they went for as long as they were gone. And it was a shared experience with the troops. Vietnam was totally different, Vietnam was covering a fire. Every morning you would read the wires and find out what had happened overnight, and then you would take your car out to [inaudible] and hop on a helicopter and buy off a couple hundred miles and be set down in the middle of a raging battle And cover that battle, and then when you would have enough of that, you would get back on a helicopter and go back to Saigon and go have a beer. And so it was always a matter of personal choice that you did. And so that puts a whole different perspective on it because once you realize that you are making those choices, you are not being forced, you have a much different feeling about the whole process. And it becomes much more of a personal adventure. And I will tell you that I personally ever met a photographer who covered Vietnam, who did not love the experience. Love it, not like it, loved it, did not get enough of it, did not stay away. I was there for two years in (19)65 and (19)66, came back to New York for two years, and from the minute I was back in New York, I wait to get back to Saigon. And I was totally miserable in New York. There was nobody to talk to or everything seemed like total bullshit to me. I had no depth, they did not understand what was going on in the world. And after going back to Vietnam for Time Magazine in 1972, the first morning I woke up and was walking down Main Street in Saigon. It felt like I had gone to bed several years earlier and woke up that next morning in Saigon and nothing else had happened in those three years I was away. It was just a total complete, okay now I am back where I ought to be. SM (00:42:00): Okay. DH (00:42:02): And so very important that you understand, but point of view now, a lot of that point of view was because we were in strand of what we did. We were all accredited by Max V. So you have identification cards allow you to get on any helicopter or plane with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. And I actually could come home at the end of the night. And the press facilities, by the way, were very good. Even in places like Danang with bars and all that stuff. Word since then, have not been that much fun. Places like Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, there is no booze. Where is the fun. There is no fun. It is miserable places where people get dismembered by. IEEs. And there is not a lot of, after going on in those places. Vietnam, we laughed our asses off. SM (00:43:43): What is interesting when you talk about the freedoms that you had in Vietnam, it is almost like that is the culture of that (19)60s generation or that era, that one of the goals of the cultural revolution at that period was that people were in charge of their own lives. They did not have to worry about the corporate, having a corporate image that I am empowered to do, I am empowered to speak up. I am empowered to fight injustice. I am empowered to do these things. There was a feeling, a sense of my voice counts, and basically what you are saying is even in the world of porno journalism in Vietnam and your fellow photojournalist, there was that same cultural feeling of you are in charge. DH (00:44:31): Yeah, well- SM (00:44:33): That was the time. DH (00:44:34): Yeah and after I attribute a lot of this one man, and that is Barry Zorithian. SM (00:44:45): Who? DH (00:44:46): Barry Zorithian. SM (00:44:47): How do you spell that name? DH (00:44:49): Z-O-R-I-T H I A N. Barry Zorithian. SM (00:44:54): Okay. DH (00:44:55): Barry Zorthian was acting Spokeman. He was not a spokeman, he was head of Max V military assistance command Vietnam of the press operation. And he said all the policies, and he was a former time incorporated guy, and his heart was a journalist heart. But he had a very high rank within Max V. He was number two people of organization. And so he is the one who made these decision. Chris could do all that, one of the lessons because the Vietnam people who were in charge in Vietnam after the Vietnam War blamed Zorithian and blamed themselves were losing the war. And their theory was that they lost the war... SM (00:46:22): They lost the war at what? Still there? DH (00:46:30): Yeah, I am here. SM (00:46:30): Oh, okay. SM (00:46:30): Yeah. SM (00:46:38): Are you waiting for another question or... One of the questions that I wanted to ask is, I was looking at one of your videos on the computer and you were talking about when you take pictures, you feel that it' is an educational process and you have a very strong philosophy of responsibility. Could you go into detail on that with, you had mentioned that in the video? DH (00:47:18): Very strong sense of responsibility, people to do all of the things that I have done over my life. My job is to... SM (00:47:51): I think we are getting cut off here. DH (00:47:54): Oh, is really- SM (00:47:56): Want me to call you again? I am getting cut off now. DH (00:47:59): Oh, you better call me back. SM (00:48:00): Okay, thanks, bye. Oh, you teach me any courses or? DH (00:48:12): I do not teach courses currently. SM (00:48:17): So the next few questions are going to be based on a lot on the generation, the boomer generation, and of course Vietnam bets were part of that. When you hear people, especially in recent years, blame all of the problems we have on to have today in our society on the era known as the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And of course they are talking about the drug culture, the welfare state, the divorce rate, some people call it the beginning of the handout society, the lack of respect for authority, the divisive nature in our dealings with people with that we disagree with. In other words, placing the blame on the boomer generation really. What are your feelings when you hear that from politicians or pundits? DH (00:49:05): Well, I laugh because it seems to me that things have reversed itself. The liberals are now the professors and the conservatives of the students, and you see this all over. Right now, a lot of anxiety on a part of the current generation is they are not going to get what they are entitled to. SM (00:49:50): That is interesting because one of the most important things when you learn about what an activist is, an activist never says these words, 'what is in it for me?' It is 'what is in it for we' was the mentality of the many of the college students of the (19)60s and (19)70s. And if you hear the reverse, what is in it for me? They are not an activist. DH (00:50:16): No, they are not, no-no. And I will say one of the big problems I have with students and having taught photojournalism, I find a total lack of curiosity there. When I look into their eyes, there is nothing there. There is lifeless. I do not know if it is too much time spent in front of video games, whether it is not learning to read, but there is nothing there. I did an exercise the first two times I taught my photojournalism class. I would walk around- SM (00:51:17): What year was this? DH (00:51:20): And there would be a dozen kids at the table, and I would walk around and I would get up real close and I would look them in the eye. And about one in four, I would say, okay, you are crazy. And I meant that in a good way because what I was seeing is there was something going on in those eyes. There was life, there was some flickering there, there was some wildness in there. There was something, there was a pulse in that person. The rest of them, if I did not say that, I knew they might as well drop out of that class right then because they were not going to do anything. I find that the greatest problem in teaching journalism today is teaching what a story is. Students have no idea whatsoever of what a story is, what makes up a story. How do you do it? How do you find it? I used to be good at that stuff. I mean very fast, but they are not anymore. SM (00:53:03): Would you say that the students of the (19)60s and the (19)70s had that, whereas the students of the (19)80s, (19)90s, and what we call the 2010s, which is the next two generations, generation X and certainly the millennial students of the day, are they in the latter group? DH (00:53:24): Yeah, I mean, I think the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s were on fire that they could not consume enough experiences or ideas. They were ravish. They wanted to ingest anything and everything, all. They were hungry for experience. They were hungry for drugs, they were hungry for sex, they were hungry. They were raiding maniacs. Look around you today, you do not see it. SM (00:54:11): Back in the (19)90s. I like your thoughts with the generation Xer group that followed the boomer generation. We had a panel of boomers and generation Xers, and they were having some problems with each other. And I found in my programs that I did the university that Generation Xers, and they are people born from (19)65 till about 1982. They either looked at the (19)60s as their sick and tired of the nostalgia that this generation of boomers is always talking about or they regretted that they did not live during that time because there were causes and there was nothing in between either like you or they did not. Did you find that too? DH (00:54:57): Yeah. SM (00:54:58): When you look at the boomer generation, which is those born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I want to preface this statement by saying that I now know that people that were born between (19)35 and (19)45 are as much of boomer as those born in that period because of the sense of spirit and they were kind of the mentors and role models for many boomers. When you look at the boomer generation, are there any basic characteristics or strengths or flaw that you can apply to them as a group? And of course we know there is 74 million people in this generation, but just from the ones you knew. DH (00:55:36): Well, I think that my experience is that people of my generation was stewarded earlier. They were out doing things, talk about me working for my newspaper at the age of 17. I was not drifting around aimlessly. I knew things I wanted to do. And that same thing went for all my friends. I had class reunion that long ago. We were talking about this very thing. People became young adults at the age of 18 and some cases 17. Now, God help us, you are lucky if you find a young adult at 30. SM (00:56:42): So the criticism that some people have of boomers is that they were a generation that never grew up. Some people think, well, again, I am just putting the shoe on the other foot there. Some people just do not like boomers and that they never did grow up. So I do not know if you have any concepts on that. DH (00:57:12): Not really, no. SM (00:57:14): And also the many of the boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history, particularly when they were young. And again, many felt they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society by ending racism, sexism, homophobia, ending war, bringing peace and making the world a better place to live. Is the world we live in an indictment of the generation or are we a better nation overall because of their activism? DH (00:57:43): That is the meaning of life question. I do not know. I do not know. SM (00:57:55): Can you give any other strengths or weaknesses of that generation? If you have any other thoughts? DH (00:58:04): Well, everybody has got their idea of the greatest generation. We know We are Tom [inaudible] fan. And I think for me, the most interesting generation was the boomers. Were the greatest or not, I do not know, but [inaudible] info. Well, I think we are in a society today that is just sort of drifting. SM (00:58:47): And again, I am just trying to understand the boomer generation from many different angles. Do you put any blame on that on the parents of today's young people, generation Xers were the children of Boomers. And now if you look on college campuses, only 15 percent of the millennial students of today are the kids of boomers. Most of them are the kids of generation Xers. So do you think this is also a criticism of the parents who maybe did not pass on some of the feelings that they had when they were young. DH (00:59:23): Yeah, I think so. And I think that that is probably a fallout from the boomer generation as far as caring for your young. But I think that as we all know, the basic family structure as we knew it has disappeared. Dinner around the table, the participation of adults and kids' activities, and certainly among minorities, it is- DH (01:00:02): And certainly among minorities, it is a disaster. No place at the table. SM (01:00:13): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? DH (01:00:19): (19)60s began with John Kennedy being inaugurated. SM (01:00:27): And when did it end? DH (01:00:38): When was that big concert, San Francisco? Was it the Rolling Stones? SM (01:00:46): Altamont? DH (01:00:47): Altamont, yeah. SM (01:00:48): That is when the violence, yes. Is there a watershed moment that you think that stands out for most boomers? DH (01:01:03): I do not know. I think that is an individual thing. SM (01:01:04): I think you were born in 1936, correct? DH (01:01:05): Correct. SM (01:01:08): Then you have lived through these periods. And just give a couple [inaudible], because these are the periods that boomers have lived. The oldest boomer is now 64, and the youngest is 49. So I think most boomers now realize that they are mortal, like every other group. In your own words, can you describe the America of the following periods as you remember? Just from your growing up, and just what these periods may symbolize to you, because these are all periods in boomers' lives. That period from the end of World War II, 1946, to the inauguration of President Kennedy. DH (01:01:53): I think that was a period of excitement and possibility. We were getting into the space race. And because the space race, there were so many technological changes. Just everything that you had in your house was changing, and becoming high-tech, we are on our way to that. And so I thought that the (19)50s, we still had the [inaudible], but I thought that the (19)50s was an optimistic and innovative time. SM (01:02:53): How about the period 1961 to 1970? DH (01:02:57): Sixty-one to (19)70, of course that is when everything exploded. And the Kennedy, and Kennedy's assassination, and Bobby Kennedy, and rock and roll, and drugs, and Andy Warhol. And total changes in dress, and the way people related to each other. Very casual sex, all those things. SM (01:03:38): How about 1971 to 1980? DH (01:03:43): (19)71to (19)80, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford. First off, you really have to understand that the first two years, we were totally bogged down in Watergate, where I think we were collectively losing our senses. And Nixon was totally out of control. The war went on in Vietnam. And then we had a breather with Gerry Ford, who was a very nice man. And then Jimmy Carter, who has since proven to be one of our better ex-presidents, but who was a total disaster when it came to the concept of protecting presidential authority of power. And the period of malaise. So I do not know if you remember the kind of clothes that Gerry Ford and Jimmy Carter wore, but these real weird plaids. SM (01:05:15): Yeah, and then Jerry Ford is not a very good golfer, and he hit a lot of people. DH (01:05:24): Yeah. But a very nice man. I liked Gerry Ford the whole time. But it was not much doing. And we were limping along with malaise, and everybody just generally not feeling very good. And then we got to (19)80s, and there was Ronnie. SM (01:05:47): Yeah, (19)81 to (19)90 was the next period. DH (01:05:52): Yeah. And as I was concerned, that was a wonderful time, because I got to spend all my time in Santa Barbara. But everybody seemed to feel really good. They liked Ronnie. Nobody took him too seriously, except when he said, "Tear down this wall, Mr. Gorbachev." Promptly did exactly that. And so I think the (19)80s was a feel-good period. SM (01:06:31): Do you think it was a period where he was trying to bring back the (19)50s? DH (01:06:32): Not really, no. SM (01:06:39): And bring the military back to power, the way it should be, as opposed to the way it was in the (19)70s? DH (01:06:45): Well, see, I personally always looked at Reagan, I saw this happy-go-lucky warrior, who always seemed to have such a good time. And I personally prospered during the (19)80s. I thought I was just wonderful. And like I say, I spent, out of eight years, I spent a whole year in Santa Barbara. And so that was not hard to say. SM (01:07:22): How about the (19)90s? 1991 to 2000? DH (01:07:29): Now, I am beginning to run into short term memory loss. What happened in the (19)90s? I cannot remember. SM (01:07:40): Well, we had the president of Bush I and Bill Clinton. DH (01:07:42): Yeah. Well, that is the answer. Bill Clinton, I thought was a hoot. He seemed to have a wonderful sense of humor and good time. But I thought, personally, he was a total fraud. I kept watching, as a photographer, I am always watching the eyes of my subject. I am trying to read what is in there. And what I found out very early on in the Clinton administration was for the first front that I covered him, I thought I had never covered anybody as fascinating as Bill Clinton. He could get to the point he could make a smart, a steep statement, his eyes had empathy, sympathy. He knew how to reach out to just the right person. And then I realized, after lunch, I was watching an act. SM (01:09:08): Wow. DH (01:09:14): But he would do the same thing, every single time. And I could tell in advance that he was going to tear up. I could tell what he was going to do. And so, for eight years... Actually seven years. For seven years, I studied Bill Clinton's face from up close, waiting to get him. And I finally did. If you go on my webpage, on the digital journalist and go to the covers, you will see a picture of Bill Clinton. And it was during the middle of the Monica business, and he was at a rally with the First Lady, and she was having absolutely nothing to do with him. And he would sort of reach out, tentatively toward her, and she would bat his hand away. And I soon suddenly started to notice that his right jaw kept clenching. And it went on and on. And his jaw was just clenching. And I have a whole roll of that, the [inaudible] Magazine. And I said, "I got you. I finally got you." After seven years, I finally saw the real Bill Clinton. SM (01:10:56): I know there is a picture on there too of them with masks. DH (01:11:02): Yeah. Yeah. And I consider that a metaphor, because I think they are both the same. I think they are two sides at the same point, that they deserve each other. And I have always thought that. SM (01:11:23): You have covered presidents from Kennedy to Clinton, I think maybe even a little bit above Bush too, but you say you finally got Clinton. What do you have to say about these other presidents in terms of maybe the photographs, and what their personalities were? And maybe even, I have got a question here, which President had the greatest impact on the boomer generation, in your opinion? Because you covered the White House for 29 years, and that is basically the time when the boomers were young, and then going into middle age. So you are dealing with Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Bush I, and Clinton. DH (01:12:05): All right. Let me give you my quick rundown. Kennedy, I covered from his inaugural until he was killed. A totally fascinating character, and very, very similar to Bill Clinton. In fact, they are almost alter-egos. Bill Clinton, the same characteristics I mentioned of Bill Clinton, I talk about John Kennedy. The photographers used to call Kennedy 'Jack the Back'. And the reason for that is Kennedy was very camera conscious. And so whenever he would come into view of the camera, he would immediately turn his back to the lens until he had composed himself. Until he had his face where he wanted it to be, hair was where he wanted it to be, and then he would turn his face to camera. But the first thing was always the turning of the back. SM (01:13:25): Wow. DH (01:13:26): So he was 'Jack the back'. And a fantastic energy to cover, and just a total wild man. Everything you read about him is true, including the midnight trips to the swimming pool. One photographer I knew, he really sort of served as an on the road pimp for him. He would run alongside the car, and as they were going in these motorcades, and they were in the open car, we had all these teenage girls, and Kennedy used to call them leapers. And he would see one that would strike his eye, and he would just look at my friend, Stanley Tretick, who is a photographer, and just point to her. And it was Tretick's job to go over to her and say, "How would you like the come meet the Senator?" SM (01:14:31): Wow. DH (01:14:34): And so, that was bad boy. SM (01:14:41): Always think of him with the older women, not younger women. DH (01:14:43): Oh, no-no. He loved the leapers. And they were just like hors d'oeuvres. I mean, Marilyn Monroe was the main course. SM (01:14:47): Right. DH (01:14:55): And then Lyndon Johnson, totally fascinating. And far bigger than life. Just huge. And he would dominate the room. He would intimidate, physically, anybody he was with. One of the best stories that I have ever heard, and it is apocryphal, is that at Camp David, Johnson was having a meeting with the president of Canada, Lester Pearson. And Lester Pearson, they were talking heatedly about Vietnam, and photographers were able to watch as Kennedy reached forward, grabbed Lester Pearson's [inaudible], and raised him off his feet, and said, loud enough for us to hear, "Boy, you have been fishing on my front lawn." SM (01:16:12): Wow. DH (01:16:15): That was Lyndon Johnson. SM (01:16:19): Wow. DH (01:16:29): And he was obsessively narcissistic. He insisted, for example, that his photographer, Okamoto, photographed him sitting on the bathroom. He wanted every piece of shit recorded. And he was something else. I could tell you stories about Lyndon Johnson [inaudible] and all that. And so then, of course, after Lyndon Johnson, we got Nixon, right? And of course Nixon was my favorite because Nixon was the best subject a photographer to ever have. He was totally crazy. And you could see every emotion. The world's worst poker player. And his face was... Anytime he made an address, his face was like a living contradiction. His eyes would be delivering one message, and his mouth would be delivering another. And there would be this moisture above his mouth, and his little eyes would be darting around the room. And he was nuts, in a word. And in fact, he did a whole bunch of nutty things. For example, during Watergate, he could not stand it. And so, one night, he bolted from the White House, in the middle of the night, called a car, drove to Dulles Airport, and got on a PWA DC-10, fly out the Santa Barbara. All alone. There was one Secret Service agent who was on the plane. And then, of course, then they had the problem, how would they get him back from Santa Barbara? Because he had not officially left. And so he was stuck in Santa Barbara, it was terrible weather. It was raining, and he was stuck there for a week. And fortunately, Henry Kissinger had taken a Jetstar down to see one of his [inaudible] in Mexico. And that plane had come back up to 29 Palm to resurface. So that is how they got him back. They had to put him in the closet of the plane to get him back Washington. Another time, he bolted from the White House and he went to Lincoln Memorial, and stood in the rain in front of Lincoln Memorial, soaking wet, for an hour, just staring at Lincoln. And of course, the more intense that Watergate story got, the better it, got. I mean, I could not wait to get to the White House in the morning. I mean, I would have paid thousands of dollars just for the privilege of going to those briefings. Because with Ron Ziegler up here, and Jerry what was his name dismantling Nixon, and all the craziness that was going on. And of course, during that period, I had, I think 20 of my 50 covers just on Nixon. And my trick was... And the other guys never caught onto it. My trick, from day one, was to use the longest possible lens that I could find. And so where my colleagues were all using 80 to 200-millimeter lenses, from his speeches, I was using eight hundreds. And I was getting in so tight on his face because I wanted to see those eyes. And there is a very famous picture in my covers of, it was taken during the American Legion Convention in New Orleans, and it was toward the end of Watergate. And he was walking into the convention hall, and he was not sleeping at all. There was just this wildness in his face. And as he was going into the hall, a reporter said, " Mr. President, what about the missing eight and a half [inaudible]?" And Nixon turned around and grabbed Ron Ziegler, and just hurled him backwards, yelling, keep those bastards away from me. And then he went on stage and there is this haunted face of Richard Nixon, where it is all there. The whole thing. The whole crazy is all there. So I mean, he was a wonderful story, you could not ask for anything better than that. SM (01:22:37): Was Agnew an important part of that story too? DH (01:22:40): In retrospect, no. Early on, yes. And then, of course, Gerry Ford, who is probably the sweetest guy ever be president. Really very nice man. Never had any desire at all to be president. Perfectly happy up on the house. And loved photographers. He used to come over to the house for drinks. Almost fell off our balcony one night. But just a really nice man. And that gave way to Carter, who was just, as I say, just a mess. I will never forget one time he was at Normandy, visiting the graveside soldiers to [inaudible]. And it was a gorgeous spring day, and he was with Valérie Giscard d'Estaing. And Valérie Giscard d'Estaing was... Hang on a minute. SM (01:24:23): Yep. DH (01:24:23): Are you there? SM (01:24:23): Yep, I am here. DH (01:24:23): Good. I dropped my phone. SM (01:24:23): Okay. DH (01:24:23): Anyway, Valérie Giscard d'Estaing was this very handsome, tall, distinguished looking guy. And he was wearing this bespoke [inaudible] suit. And next to him is this guy, in this Colombo [inaudible], looked like a flasher. And that was Jimmy Carter. And so that is when we started calling him the [inaudible] Flasher. SM (01:24:58): Oh my God. DH (01:25:05): And then after Carter... SM (01:25:07): Reagan. DH (01:25:09): Reagan, and I have already talked about Reagan. And then I have Clinton, and I have talked to you about Clinton. SM (01:25:19): George Bush I. DH (01:25:21): Oh, yeah. George Bush I. How could I forget George Bush I? Again, a very good friend of mine. And a very loosey goosey guy, except when he was deciding to go to war. Basically, a very decent man. And I will never forget, when after Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait, and Bush had been up at Kennebunkport, and he came back later that day. And he walked off of Air Force One, and I knew George Bush very well, the face that I saw, I had never seen before. It scared the living shit out of me. And somebody turned to him as he was going in the door of the White House and said, "So what are you going to do about Saddam Hussein?" And he pointed and said, "Wait. Just wait and watch." I said, "Whoa." And of course he did. Yeah. And wait [inaudible] war. But by and large, he was fun to be around. Hilarious. If you look at some of the pictures on my site, there are all these really funny pictures of him. He liked making fun of himself. He was deliberately goofy. And then there is George W. Bush, who I hate. Totally nasty man. Nasty in ways I cannot even calculate. But he is a bully. And he thinks he is too clever by half. And I have no regard for him whatsoever. SM (01:28:05): Yet he has got a really nice wife, Barbara. DH (01:28:09): No, that is George H. SM (01:28:11): Yeah, I mean Laura. DH (01:28:12): Laura. Yeah. SM (01:28:15): And then of course, you have got a really nice picture on your website of President Obama. He is only been in there two years, but I guess your thoughts on him so far. DH (01:28:25): Well, I think he is doing the best he can. I mean, God help you. I mean, who would want to be in that position? The mess he has inherited. And I do not think he has made any big mistakes. I think he has strapped himself with an overwhelming schedule. And I think doing as well as he can. Time will tell. SM (01:29:04): Yeah. It is amazing how people... He says that he tries to not be identified with a (19)60s generation, and he tries to disassociate, yet his critics say he is the epitome of it. That he is farther to the left than in any other president. Which, they may just be critics saying it, but he cannot seem to win no how, no matter what he does. What are your thoughts on the two pictures that were very big during the Vietnam War. And as an observer, as a photographer observing another person's photography, what did you think of the picture, the girl in the pitcher? With Kim Fuchs? And the second picture was the colonel killing the Viet Cong person in, I guess it was Saigon, or whatever it was. DH (01:29:52): Yeah, of course. Both of those were taken by very dear friends of mine. Colonel [inaudible] being killed, that was [inaudible] Eddie Adams. SM (01:30:01): Right. DH (01:30:01): And that- DH (01:30:03): ... [inaudible] Eddie Adams. SM (01:30:01): Right. DH (01:30:01): And that is certainly one of the most influential pictures that is ever been taken. It definitely turned the direction against the war. There is no question about it. And it is a picture that haunted Eddie Adams until he died. He wished he had never taken it. And then the Kim Phúc picture, that is taken by another friend of mine. And I think that is a lesser picture than the Eddie Adams picture, which of course on a scale of one to 10 is 10. But again, that was an influential picture. SM (01:31:03): And of course the other pictures, the My Lai pictures, which seemed to say to Americans that our troops are committing atrocities. And what did you think of all the coverage of My Lai? Because it got a lot of press. It was on the front cover of magazines, and people refer to it all the time. DH (01:31:25): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. SM (01:31:30): Did you think that from... depending on who you talked to, this was happening all the time in Vietnam, or was this just one of those rare happenings? DH (01:31:42): Well, I think it happened a lot more, most people realize. In a war where there are no lines and you have these guys with guns walking through villages, and those guys had been shot at an hour before, that sort of stuff happened. SM (01:32:12): One of the questions that I have asked everybody from the time I started with Senator McCarthy back in (19)96 was the question of healing, this issue of healing. I took a group of students to Washington, D.C. in 1995 to meet former Senator Edmund Muskie, who was the vice presidential candidate in 1968 at the Democratic Convention in Chicago. And the students that went with me came up with this question. They were not born at the time, but they had seen all the videos of that year, 1968, and what happened in Chicago. And their question was this: "Due to all the divisions that were happening in America at the time, 1968, divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who did not, those who supported the troops and those who did not, do you think the (19)60s generation, the Vietnam generation, will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing, due to the tremendous divisive issues that tore us apart?" I will give you what Senator Muskie's response was after I hear yours. DH (01:33:26): You know what? I do not think so. I think time has passed. I mean, I certainly do not find myself dwelling on it. SM (01:33:39): Do you think we as a nation have a problem with healing? And what has the wall done in Washington, D.C. to help this process? Some people say it has really helped the vets and their families, but the question is, as Jan Scruggs, when he wrote in his book, To Heal a Nation, has it really gone beyond the vets? DH (01:33:59): Yeah. Well, no, I think for the vet, I mean, that is who it is for after all. And so, no, I love the wall. I think it is a beautiful tribute and I think that is great. SM (01:34:15): So you would not put the Vietnam generation in the same league with the divisions that took place during the Civil War? Because it is well documented they did not heal from that war. DH (01:34:30): Yeah. Well, except that was a big difference. It was fought here on our property, on our country. Everybody was involved. SM (01:34:45): Right. The other question is the issue of trust, obviously because of a lot of the leaders lied to members of the boomer generation throughout their youth. Obviously the biggest examples are Watergate with President Nixon, but we also know the Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson. And more astute young students, and there were many of them, saw the lies that Eisenhower even gave in 1959 on the U-2 incident where he said it was not a spy plane. And then you had all the numbers that McNamara was giving on the troops, and we knew that those were not actual numbers. So there was a sense that no one trusted anybody in a sense of responsibility, whether it be a university president, a corporate leader, a congressman, a senator, a principal. No matter who they were, there was this lack of trust. Do you think that is been a negative quality within the generation? It has been characterized as part of them, or do you see anything positive in that? DH (01:35:52): What concerns me is the divisions that are deepening among citizens. It used to be you could go to a dinner party in Washington and the table would be full of Democrats and Republicans. That would not happen today; one or the other. You are either a Democrat or a Republican. And as somebody who has lived for a long time in Washington and taught people there every day, it is the thing that I think bothers everybody the most. Half of the population is not talking to the other half. And I cannot remember any time that that has happened. And I credit to a large extent the rise of cable pundits who are yelling at each other 24 hours a day, except on Saturdays. They take off on Saturday. But I think they are responsible to a large degree. I think that we are suffering from a breakdown in civility that I think is just going to get worse. And I only know, is now we have got these commissions at work. Everybody is [inaudible] is going to start getting [inaudible] simultaneously. That could be a lot of very pissed off people. SM (01:37:53): Do you see any links there between the divisiveness in the (19)60s? Because a lot of people were not talking to each other back then, they were shouting people down at times and were not listening to the other side. Do you see any kind of link between then and now? DH (01:38:06): Totally different. Totally different. I think that you had a lifestyle conflict which would manifest itself primarily in the long hairs versus the short hairs. And of course, you always had the police on the side of the short hairs. And so I think that that was a lifestyle division. This is a much more ... How do you explain this? This is a division over who gets what. And I think it is going to be very nasty. SM (01:39:09): I have only got three more questions and then I am... One of the things here, and I know you say this in your literature, and I know it was important, regardless of what we say about Richard Nixon, the pros and the cons, we got to give credit for him in terms of his trip to China, and you were- DH (01:39:33): Oh, absolutely. SM (01:39:35): Yeah. I would like to you to talk about in your own words, as a person who not only took pictures and have said that this is one of the most important experiences you have went through, how important that trip was to this country and to this world. DH (01:39:50): Well, as somebody who was chosen to photograph that trip to China, I have always regarded that at the high point of my life. And I certainly think it is at the pinnacle representing what a person of the United States is able to do. This was a... I guess you would call it a Hail Mary pass, that Kissinger and Nixon cooked up one summer. And we were in San Clemente, and Kissinger disappeared for a week and came back and we discovered he had been to China. And that was the beginning of the process of setting that trip up. But there has never been a more important presidential trip. And I do not see how there could ever be, unless maybe we are sitting on the confrontation of World War III. But it changed everything. Because of that trip, China and Russia stopped supporting North Vietnam. And so it was the precursor to ending the Vietnam War, really. Totally realigned world politics, shifted alliances. And it was responsible... Hello? Hello? SM (01:41:54): Yeah, I am here. Yeah. DH (01:41:56): Okay. It was responsible for liberating China from [inaudible] and start them on a path which God only knows how that is going to finally play out. But that one trip changed everything. And there is another trip I want to mention to you because it is along the same lines. And that was the trip to the Soviet Union for the SALT agreement. And I do not know if you remember when that happened, but that was two weeks before Nixon resigned. And he did two trips back-to-back in a 10-day period in that period immediately before he resigned. One was he went to India and Israel, and the other was he went to the Soviet Union. And Nixon and Kissinger were frantic to get the SALT treaty signed the, because they knew time was running out. And so Kissinger went to see... Was it Brezhnev then, I think? I think it was Brezhnev. But Kissinger went to see him and he said, "Listen, we need to have a talk. As you realize, the president is under extraordinary pressure in the United States." Can you hang on just a sec? SM (01:43:59): Yep-yep. DH (01:43:59): Okay. The president is under ordinary pressure in the United States. He has not been sleeping well. I personally am very worried about his mental health. So I would recommend that when you have your discussion, you treat him very carefully, very carefully. And that is how we got the SALT treaty passed. SM (01:44:54): Geez. He did an awful lot toward the end. DH (01:44:57): Yes, he did. SM (01:45:00): Were you in the room when he resigned? DH (01:45:02): Yes, I was. SM (01:45:02): Yeah. I remember watching that on television, and by golly, that was an emotional event with his family right there behind him and his thanking all of his staff. And yeah, I remember he talked about his mom. Would you say of all the presidents we have talked about that really were alive when the boomers in their lives, that he is the most Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? He can have the greatest moments and then he can have the worst moments, extremes, almost like psychosis or something psychologically. DH (01:45:40): Yeah, absolutely. SM (01:45:41): That seemed to be a another really... even though it was a sad moment, he said the right words. DH (01:45:48): Yeah. Well, he was a great president, except he was crazy. SM (01:45:54): Yeah-yeah. Well, Bobby Muller, when he came back from Vietnam, the person who founded Vietnam Veterans of America, this is a famous quote from him. He said, "I knew that when I came back from Vietnam, that America was not always the good guy," because he had been a Marine and he went in there, and of course he was injured. But he saw things that we have discussed in the late (19)60s over in Vietnam, and knew some things. Is that what a lot of veterans were saying around that time, that for the first time... I know in World War II, we did not say that. I do not think in Korea we said that. But a lot of Vietnam vets were saying, "America is not always the good guy." DH (01:46:40): Yeah-yeah. Mm-hmm. SM (01:46:41): Did you sense that from a lot of vets? DH (01:46:42): Not a lot, but some, yeah. SM (01:46:52): And then there was, in The Wounded Generation, which was a book written in 1980, there was a panel with Phil Caputo, James Fallows, Bobby Muller, Jim Webb, who is now Senator Webb. And they talked about the issue of the generation gap between parents and young people. But then Jim Webb said something that changed the discussion. He said the real generation gap, it was not really between father and son or mother and daughter, or whatever; it was between those who went to war and those who did not, those who fought the war and those who did not. And he was very critical in the discussion that this is what we call a service generation, i.e. Kennedy, the Peace Corps and serving your country when your nation calls... that in reality, the boomer generation is not a service-oriented generation. Your thoughts on the generation gap between those who served and those who did not, and the concept of service, which is often linked to the (19)60s generation. DH (01:48:00): Yeah-yeah. SM (01:48:03): Any thoughts? DH (01:48:05): Well, I personally, I told you I had a great job when I was in the Army. I personally benefited enormously from the draft. And I think that when the draft was discontinued, we lost something, lost something as a basis of shared service that we regret today. And the military's got broken. We cannot keep sending the same people back over and over and over again. You cannot keep on doing this. And I think you see the estimate of we are going to be in Afghanistan until 2014. Where are these people going to come from? So I personally am for the draft. It sure did not hurt me any, and I thought it was a very valuable experience. SM (01:49:37): I heard the other night on TV, Eliot Spitzer was talking, the former governor of New York, and he says he is for the draft. And quite a few of the Democrats now are starting to think, in fairness... because we all know about the fairness issue during the Vietnam War; in fairness, all people should be called. And that actually should be even service for everyone. And they went to the point of even people that may not be qualified for military service be required to do other kinds of service for two years. It is across the board, so you are not... just because you physically cannot do it, you still can do two years of service. I will end with this. Two other presidents we did not talk about, and they were the beginning when boomers were very young, and that is President Truman and President Eisenhower. Your thoughts on them? Because Eisenhower was the president that all the boomers saw in the (19)50s, this grandfather figure from (19)52 to (19)60. And of course the boomer generation was just going into 7th grade around the time President Kennedy was coming into office. Your thoughts on Eisenhower and Truman? DH (01:50:45): Yeah, I do not have any. SM (01:50:45): Do not have any? DH (01:50:46): No [inaudible]- SM (01:50:49): Pardon? DH (01:50:50): That is before my time. SM (01:50:52): All right. And the last thing, my very last question is this. I proposed that the (19)60s generation or the Vietnam generation that grew up in the (19)50s, before all these changes happened in the (19)60s, had three qualities. They were fairly naive, they were quiet, and there was a lot of fear within them. Fear, because of course the worry about nuclear annihilation, we all went through the tests at school. Some may have seen the McCarthy hearings, fearing about speaking up, being labeled a communist. Naive, just not really knowing what was going on in the world, certainly in the area of civil rights. You did not see a whole lot on TV in the (19)50s about some of these things. And then a fairly quiet generation. Those are qualities when boomers were very young, and then of course then John Kennedy in the (19)60s, and a lot of things changed. Do you think those qualities of fear, being naive and being quiet is pretty on-target for boomers when they were very young? DH (01:52:08): It is an interesting question. I think there is a pervasive fear right now that things are out of control. I think that fundamentals that we took for granted, that I would be able to always find a job, provide for my family, have a place to live and shelter and food, these fundamentals are now in grave question. And they have never been a question before, that I know, except for the homeless. But now everybody is potentially looking down the same barrel. And so I think people are... I am terrified. I think people are terrified. SM (01:53:37): Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? DH (01:53:39): No-no. SM (01:53:43): Do you have any final thoughts or comments on the boomer generation itself? DH (01:53:51): I think I pretty well talked it out. SM (01:53:55): When the best history books are written, it is often 50 years after an event. What do you think, let us say maybe 30, 40 years from now, historians and sociologists will be saying about the Vietnam generation once they have passed on? DH (01:54:20): I am not sure they are going to have much to say. It is already faded. I am glad we have that wall there. It is a reminder, but I do not think... You used to see, for example, lots of Vietnam vets. You do not see many anymore, because they are all dying away. And I think people are more preoccupied with the current crises that are coming down the road than they are thinking about Vietnam. SM (01:55:06): Or any of the stuff in the (19)60s- DH (01:55:13): Right, yeah. SM (01:55:14): ...all the movements. Do you think that is why we do not hear as much about civil rights and women's rights? And we hear a little bit more about gay rights because of the marriage issue, and then in the environmental issues, and the Native American, all the ethnic groups... They were very prevalent in the (19)70s and the (19)80s, but they seem to have waned. DH (01:55:41): Yeah-yeah. SM (01:55:41): By the way, I want to say that Edmund Muskie's response to that question, I did not give you the answer, about the healing issue. He said we have not healed since the Civil War in the area of race. And that is what he went on to talk about, so anyway. DH (01:55:57): Anyway. Well, I think that is probably true. I think it is getting much worse. I think we are basically watching the devastation of Black families. Looking at all the figures, it is an unbelievable thing. I mean, the Black family structure has totally disappeared. SM (01:56:30): When you think about all the things that are happening to the unemployed today, it is up at close to 10 percent, but now they say different parts of the country, it is 18 percent. But we talk about people's pensions are being threatened; in Pennsylvania, they are being threatened right now. And so Social Security can be become... What are people going to live on? I am just amazed at where we are heading. It is really scary. DH (01:56:58): Well, I told you, I am terrified. And I will tell you, there was a statistic I heard just the other day, which shocked me, which was [inaudible] the town that if you were a young white man with a prison record, you stood a better chance of getting a job than being a young Black man with no prison record. SM (01:57:34): That is amazing. That does not shock me. Wow. Well, I thank you very much. DH (01:57:44): Okay. Let me know how it works out. SM (01:57:46): Yeah, you will see the transcript eventually. I am going to be hibernating six months doing my transcripts. I am going to need two pictures of you. DH (01:57:55): Okay. That we can do easy. SM (01:57:57): Yeah. And I love that picture of you with all those book covers in the background. That is a great shot. DH (01:58:02): Okay. I can get that to you. SM (01:58:04): Yeah. And keep doing what you are doing. You are one heck of a photographer. I kept a lot of magazines over the years. I think I have got about seven of your magazine covers, and the one of George Bush I have. I know I have a stack here. I do not ever take the covers off a magazine. I keep the magazine. So I got boxes of magazines that I have kept over the years from my archives. So I have got quite a few of your covers on the original magazine. DH (01:58:31): Well, that is good. SM (01:58:35): Yep. Well, you have a great day, and thank you very much. I really appreciate it. It has been an honor to talk to you. DH (01:58:41): Okay, take care. SM (01:58:41): Take care. Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dirck Halstead Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Halstead, Dirck, 1936-2022 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Photojournalists; Editors; Publishers; Halstead, Dirck, 1936--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dirk Halstead is a photojournalist, editor, and publisher of The Digital Journalist. Halstead started photojournalism in high school and at the age of 17, he worked with Life Magazine to cover the Guatemalan Civil War. He worked at United Press International (UPI) for 15 years after attending Haverford College. He has dedicated his life to photography and has created some great pieces of work.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dirck Halstead (1936-2022) was a photojournalist, editor, and publisher of <em>The Digital Journalist</em>. Halstead started photojournalism in high school and at the age of 17, he worked with <em>Life</em> magazine to cover the Guatemalan Civil War. He worked at United Press International (UPI) for 15 years after attending Haverford College. He has dedicated his life to photography and has created some great pieces of work.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.124a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.124b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 118:45 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c266f4a00193bffe9a39916ee631ee5c.pdf 14bcffbe31e1e5640f198e61ca4bdc77 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U N I V E R S I T Y STATE  UNIVERSITY  OF  NEW  Y O R K wdc [4 D E P A R T M E N T F I R S T  S T E P S A N D  F I N A L  T H O U G H T S E ARLY AND L ATE C HORAL W ORKS BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY CHORUS Bruce Borton, conductor Siobhan Sculley, student conductor Victoria Cannizzo, Susan MacLennan MayBelle Golis, sopranos Cabiria Jacobsen, mezzo soprano Peter Browne and William Lawson, pianists Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:00 p.m. Osterhout Concert Theater �PROGRAM Schaffe in mir, Gott, ein rein Herz . Op.29 No. 2 ...Johannes Brahms (1833­1897) Schaffe in mir, Gott. ein rein Herz Make me a clean heart, O God, Und gib mir einen neuen, gewissen Geist. And renew a right spirit within me. Verwirf mich nicht von deinem Angesicht Cast me not away from thy presence Und nimm deinen heiligen Geist nicht von mir and take not thy holy Spirit from me. Troste mich wieder mit deiner Hfilfe, O give me the comfort of thy help again. Und der freudige Geist erhalte mich. And stablish me with thy free Spirit. ­­Psalm 51 : 10­12 Ave verum corpus (1 791 ) Ave vérum Corpus. Natum de Maria Virgine: Vere passum. immolatum ln cruce pro homine: C ujus latus perforatum, Unda fluxit sanguine: Esto nébis praegustatum In mortis examine. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart ( l 75 6­1 791 ) Hail, true Body, born of the Virgin Mary. Who has truly suffered, was sacrificed on the cross for mortals. Whose side was pierced. whence flowed water and blood: Be for us a foretaste (of heaven) During our final examining. Franz Schubert (1797­1828) Christ ist erstanden! ( l  8 1 6). Christ ist erstanden! F reude dem Sterblichen. Den die verderblichen. Schleichenden, erblichen Mingel um wanden. Christ is risen! Joy to the One, of us Who the pernicious, Ancestral. insidious, Fault has unwoven. ­­Chor der Engel aus Faust (Goethe) <....... Franz Schubert Stdndchen. (D.920) Cabiria Jacobsen, mezzo soprano Men of the University Chorus Siobhan Sculley, conductor Zogernd leise. in des Dunkels nacht ’ger Stille. Sind wir hier. In den Finger sanft gekriimmt. Leise. leise pochen wir An des Liebchens Kammerthiir. Doch nun steigend. Schwellend. hebend. Mit vereinter Stimme laut Rufen aus wir hochvertraut : Schlafdu nicht. wenn der Neigung Stimme spricht Sucht‘ ein Weiser nah und ferne, Menschen einst mit der Lateme Wie viel seltner dann als Gold Menschen uns geneigt und hold. Drum. wenn Freundschaft. Liebe spricht. Hesitantly. quietly. in the dark‘s nocturnal stillness, We are here. And with fingers gently bent. lightly, lightly we knock At our sweetheart ’s chamber door. But now increasing, swelling, rising. with a loud. united voice. we call out confidently: “Sleep not when the voice of affection speaks!” Once a wise man searched near and far with a lantern for friends. H o w  much rarer than gold Are people who are gracious and kind. So. when friendship or love speaks, Freundin, Liebchen, schlaf du nicht! Friend. sweetheart, do not  sleep! Aber was in allen Reichen But what in all the world War dem Schlummer zu vergleichen? Would be comparable to sleep? Drum. statt Worten und statt Gaben, So, instead of words and gifls, Sollst du nun auch Ruhe haben. You shall now also have rest. Noch ein Griisschen, noch ein Wort! One more little greeting, one more word! Es verstummt die frohe Weise; The joyful melody becomes silent; Leise. leise, Schleichen wir uns wieder fort. Quietly, quietly again we steal away. ­­Franz Grillparzer Salut printemps (1882)..............................................Claude Debussy (1862­1918) Salut printemps. jeune saison, Dieu rend aux plaines leur couronne. La séve ardente qui bouillonne S’épanche et brise sa prison. Bois et champs sont en floraison. Un monde invisible bourdonne, Hail spring, young season! God restores the crown to the plains. The ardent, bubbling sap Overflows and breaks its prison. Woods and fields are flowering; An invisible world murmurs; L’eau sur le caillou qui résonne Water runs over the reverberating pebble Court et dit sa claire chanson. And sings its clear song. Le genét dore la colline: The broom gilds the hill ; Sur le vert gazon 1’aubépine On the green lawn the hawthorn Verse la neige de ses fleurs. Pours forth its snowy blooms. Tout est fraicheur. amour. lumiére, All is freshness, love and light, Et du sein fécund de la terre Montent des chants et des senteurs. And songs and scents arise From the fertile bosom of the earth. ­­Comte de Ségur Victoria Cannizzo, soprano solo Noél des enfants qui n’ont plus de maisons (1916 ) .. Claude Debussy (Christmas Carol of the Homeless Children) Nous n‘avons plus de maisons! Oh! La! We no longer have homes! Les ennemis ont tout pris, The enemies have taken everything, tout pris, jusqu’a notre petit lit! even our tiny beds! lls ont brulé ;’I'école et notre maitre aussi. They have burned the school, and our teacher too. Ils ont brulé l‘église et monsieur Jesus Christ. They burned the church and mister Jesus Christ, Et le vieux pauvre qui n’a pas pu s’en aller! And the old beggar who couldn‘t escape! Bien sur! Papa est a la guerre. Of course, papa is away at war. Pauvre mama nest morte! And poor mama died A vant d ’voir vu  tout ca. before seeing all of this. Qu’est c ’que I’on va faire? What are we to do? Noél, petit Noél! N‘allez pas chez eux, Santa. dear Santa! Don’t go to their houses. Punissezles! Vengez les enfants de France! Les petits Belges, les petits Serbes, Et les petits Polonais aussi! Si nous en oublions, pardonneznous. Noél! Sur tout. pas de joujoux, Tachez de nous redonner le pain quotidian. Noél! Ecouteznous, Nous n’avons plus de petits sabots: Mais donnez la victoire aux enfants de France! Punish them! Avenge the children of France! The little Belgians, the little Serbs. And the little Poles too! If we forget some of them. forgive us. Santa! Above all. no toys! Try to give us our daily bread once again. Santa. listen to us. We have no more little wooden shoes: But give victory to the children of France! ­­C. Debussy Women of the University Chorus William Lawson, piano �Missa Brevis in  F Major .....................c..ceeeu......... Josef Haydn (1 732­1809) Kyrie Gloria Credo Sanctus Benedictus Agnus Dei Susan MacLennan and MayBelle Golis, soprano soloists Siobhan Sculley, conductor Fern I  Cabiria Jacobsen, mezzo soprano o Paul Watrobski, cello e All the sun long it was running. it was lovely, the hay Fields high as the house, the tunes from the chimneys, it was air And playing, lovely and watery And fire green as grass. And nightly under the simple stars As I rode to sleep the owls were bearing the farm away, All the moon long I heard. blessed among stables, the nightjars Flying with the ricks, and the horses Flashing into the dark. And then to awake. and the farm, like a wanderer white With the dew, come back, the cock on his shoulder. it was all Shining, it was Adam and maiden. The sky gathered again And the sun grew round that very day. i carry your heart with me, (i carry it in my heart) i am never without it (anywhere i go you go my dear; and whatever is done by only me is your doing my darling) i fear no fate (for you are my fate my sweet) i want no world (for beautiful you are my world, my true) and it ’s you are whatever a moon has always meant and whatever a sun will always sing is you here is the deepest secret nobody knows (here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud   and the sky of the sky o f tree called life: which grows higher than soul can hope or mind can hide) and this is the wonder that ’s keeping the stars apart i carry your heart (i carry it in my heart) So it must have been afier the birth of the simple light In the first. spinning place. the spellbound horses walking warm ­—.e. cummings   Missa B r e v i s . . . . . . . . o g t e m w o s L. Webb (b. 1976) Out of the whinnying green stable On to the fields of praise. iI (MM Choral Conducting. Binghamton University, 2001) . Susan MacLennan, soprano solo Now as l was young and easy under the apple boughs About the lilting house and happy as the grass was green, The night above the dingle starry, Time let me hail and climb Golden in the heydays of his eyes, And honoured among wagons I was prince of the apple towns And once below a time I lordly had the trees and leaves Trail with daisies and barley Down the rivers of the windfall light. And as l was green and carefree, famous among the barns About the happy yard and singing as the farm was home, In the sun that is young once only. Time let me play and be Golden in the mercy of his means. And green and golden I was huntsman and herdsman. the calves Sang to my born. the foxes on the hills barked clear and cold, And the sabbath rang slowly In the pebbles of the holy streams.   n Duke o J t r a (1899­1984 Arranged for chorus by Rachelle Brisson h (Premiere performance of this arrangement. completed Spring, 2010) Kyrie Sanctus Benedictus Agnus Dei John Corigliano (b. 1938) Michelle Anderson, Cheryl Jacobson, Andrew Fuller, Daniel Romberger, solo quartet James Hsia, Ella Serrano, violins I Carry Your H (1960) And honoured among foxes and pheasants by the gay house Under the new made clouds and happy as the heart was long, In the sun born over and over. I ran my heedless ways. My wishes raced through the house high hay And nothing I cared. at my sky blue trades, that time allows In all his tuneful turning so few and such morning songs Before the children green and golden Follow him out of grace. Nothing l cared. in the lamb white days. that time would take me Up to the swallow thronged lofi by the shadow of my hand. In the moon that is always rising. Nor that riding to sleep I should hear him fly with the high fields And wake to the farm forever fled from the childless land. Oh as I was young and easy in the mercy of his means, Time held me green and dying Though I sang in my chains like the sea. ­­Dylan Thomas �section the male lover determines that his female companion “needs her sleep more than his amorous advances.” NOTES O N  T H E  MUSIC Youth is full of pleasance, age is full of care. . . Youth is wild, and age is tame. (William Shakespeare) Time is the great arbiter of quali ty in the arts. an d genius in musi c is most often recognized and acknowledged only afler the passage of a great deal of it.  In the normal course of events, one would expect to find a composer’s greatest creations only a fter a certain ma turation process ­­ the middle to late years.  Yet genius is frequently found in eve n the earliest com positions of the true greats as we can see in today’s performance of works by t he twenty­seven­year­old Brahms, the nineteen­year­old Schubert, and the seventeen­year­old Haydn. Johannes Brahms interest in choral music spanned his entire career.  His most well­known choral work, Ein deutsches Requiem , was composed near the middle of his life, but the motets, part songs, and folk song arrangements were written from his early years in Hamburg to the last decade of his life in the 1890’s.  The opus 29 motets (there are two of them) were written in 1859­60 for local Hamburg choirs.  The fugal middle section demonstrates his admiration of the music of the past, most notably that of J.S. Ba ch.  However, in the Ldndler­ like  third section. one can also hear traces of the German folk music which he so admired and spent much of his life collecting and arranging. l l The two Debussy choral works presented provide another opportunity to hear works from the beginning and end of a brilliant creative career.  Debussy composed the short cantata, Salut Printemps. as an attempt to win the Prix de Rome in 1881.  Having encount ered significant difficulties in his earlier harmony studies at the Paris Conservatoire over his penchant for parallel fourths and fifths, he followed the advice of his composition teacher. Guiraud, and curtailed his innovative creative urges and attempted a style that would be more conventional and pleasing to the judges.  The work failed to win the prize in 1881, but Debussy was successful two years later with his cantata L ‘enfant prodigue. Most of Mozart ’s sacred choral music dates from his early years as composer in service to the Archbishop of Salzburg, Hieronymus, Count Colloredo.  It is always to be regretted that for al most a decade. when the composer was enjoying his most productive years in Vienna, he abandoned sacred choral composition. In 1 791, his last yea r, he returned to this genre for two final masterpieces. th e exquisite motet Ave verum corpus, and his uncompleted Requiem.  The motet was written for Anton Stoll, a village teacher and choirrnaster at Baden.  Mozart composed in an intentionally simple style befitting the modest resources of the village church. Very little is known of Schubert ’s inspiration for or the circumstances surrounding the composition of Christ ist erstanden (also known as Chor der Engel or “Chorus of Angels”) a text found in Pa rt 1, Act 1, Scene 1 of Goethe’s Faust.  We do know that Schubert was familiar with Faust as early as 1 814 (age 17) because the composer’s famous song for voice and piano. Gretchen am Spinnrade, dates from that ti me.  The choral work was not published until 1839, long after Schubert ’s death in 1828. ­­ Bruce Borton Schubert composed Stidndchen ( Serenade) in 182 7, less than a year before his death in 1828. and the first performance was given in August of that year. The poem by Grillparzer is divided into three sections. The first section describes a male visitor atte mpting to wake his female companion. The second section talks about friendship and love. The poem concludes by observing that it is easier to find gold than it  is to find a person that is “Gracious and kind.” In this last The poet was commissioned by a friend to write t his poem to celebrate the birthday of his wife. Grillparzer contacted Schube rt and he quickly agreed to compose the music. When Grillparzer saw the first version for men ’s voices and soloist, he said, “no Schubert. I can’t use it, as this is supposed to be a celebration for Gosmar’s female friends.” Schube rt changed the work from male voices to female voices and on A ugust 1 1, 182 7, a group of Miss Gosmar ’s female friends sang Standchen to her while in a garden. “The vision of a female ensemble serenading a girlfriend with a poem written from a male standpoint must have been a bit strange and certainly humorous.” ­­ Siobhan Sculley The year 1915 found Debussy suffering from te rminal cancer and deeply affected by recent events of the war in which the Kaiser’s army had ravaged and occupied much of Belgium, Poland. and Serbia.  Days before undergoing surgery to remove his colon, he wrote the words and music for this emotional little song expressing the tragedy though the eyes of an orphaned child. Originally writte n for solo voice and piano, in 19 16 he rearranged the piece for children’s chorus.  He died later that year, making this choral work his final work for voice. ­­ Bruce Borton l l Franz Joseph Ha ydn was born in  1732 in Rohrau, Austria. Betwee n 1749­1750, Haydn composed the Missa Brevis in F major.  It is one of his earliest known compositions. During this time, he was a freelance musician, teacher, and composer. The text in his Missa Brevis follows the ordinary of the Catholic Mass, which includes the Kyrie. Gloria, Credo. Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei, but set in very brief and economical fashion.  The two longest text movements. the Gloria and Credo. last only 1‘30 and 2‘30 respectively in part due to his employment of a technique called “telescoping”, a process in which several   lines of text are sung simultaneously.  This allows the quick delivery o f long The and.  ssible to underst text. although resulting in text that is nearly impo �performing forces include SATB chorus, two soprano soloists, and a very small orchestra of violins 1 and 2, and basso continuo. The overall harmonic structure and form of this work are simple.  The form of the piece resembles Concerto Grosso style, with alternating solo, tutti, solo. tutti. The simple structure aligns with the ideals of the Catholic Church in the 1750’s. Pope Benedict XIV desired liturgical music that focused on the religious intention as opposed to operatic style. Towards the end of Haydn ’s life (1805), the manuscript of the mass was found in the Servite Monastery at Rossau. Haydn was elated when he rediscovered this work and found that he enjoyed “the melody and certain youthful fire“. ­­Siobhan Sculley “First steps” are frequently taken during student years, and Binghamton University has been witness to a number of first steps over the years.  Rachelle Brisson came to Binghamton University as a graduate student in 2009­2010. She is a graduate of Mansfield University and is currently a resident of Owego, New York.  In the spring of 2010, Ms. Brisson was a student in Bruce Borton ’s Choral Arranging class and completed her arrangement of John Duke‘s solo song, i carry your heart, a setting of an e.e. cummings poem, as a final class project.  Today it receives its premiere performance. Jeffrey Webb completed his Master of Music in Choral Conducting degree at Binghamton University in May, 2001.  While at Binghamton. Jeff conducted the Women’s Chorus, performed with Harpur Chorale and Uni versity Chorus, and assisted with the choral program.  The Missa Brevis in A­Flat was one of several composition and arranging projects completed during his Binghamton years.  It received its premiere performance by the Harpur Chorale in May. 2001.  Webb now is an assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh­ Johnstown and is music director of the Blair Concert Chorale, a community chamber chorus. John Corigliano is one of America ’s foremost living composers.  His symphonies, chamber music, film scores and keyboard works have enjoyed wide acclaim and won the composer a Pulitzer Prize in 2001 for his Symphony No. 2.  His vocal works follow the lyric tradition of Samuel Barber.  Fern Hill is his earliest published choral work, written soon after his graduation from Manhattan School of Music.  The Dylan Thomas poem itself is perfectly appropriate for today’s program rhapsodizing the glories of youth from the viewpoint of old age.  Conjuring images of the Welsh poet ’s childhood summers on his aunt ’s farm. the poem describes being “prince of the apple towns. . .green and carefree, famous among the barns. .  In the end, however. time leads him from these happy times, and finally holds him “green and dying” but still singing “in my chains like the sea.” THE UNIVERSITY CHORUS Bruce Borton, conductor Siobhan Sculley, student conductor Peter Browne and William Lawson, accompanists Soprano 1 Michelle Anderson Susan Bachman Brittany L. Bory Lorrina Fuentes Mary Gilda MayBelle Golis Margaret Hays Sayuri lto Susan MacLennan Cathie Makowka Mary Barb Martin Susan Rosenberg Marilyn Ross Ligita Roznere Gloria Salamida Siobhan Sculley Barbara Alhart Simon Barbara Thamasett Soprano 2 Sarina Barrera Ency Burhans Patricia Caldwell Rachel Christian Jenna Cooley Joanne Corey Christina Cussen Barbara Herne Sioux Petrow Kelly Pueschel Nuzhat Quaderi Megan L. Roppolo Susan Sarzynski Jennifer Walsh Lois Wilston N. Ewa Wu Alto 1 Carolyn E. Blake Nanette Borton Maria Luisa Cook Carole Dickinson Jayde Doetschman Michelle Doherty Tahnee Fallis Diane A. Ferraccioli Amanda Grode Olivia Hon Sylvia Horowitz Grace Houghton Cheryl Jacobson Joan Kellam Claire Labbe *Choir president TChoir secretary Pat Labzentis Adina Lowy* Margit Mayberry Katherine Moscowitch Greta Myers Anna Nicholas Joyce Printz Mary Schuster Jane Shear Sarah Szalasnyt Susan Szczotka Susan S. Waring Mary Woestman Caitlin Worm Alto 2 Kathryn Baine Lois P. Bare Anna Bitterbaum Kate Bouman Phyllis S. Burr Jeanne Fenzel Ida Amelia Jones Janice Lee Hallie Marks Ethel F. Molessa Shirley Rodgers �Tenor Barbara Barno Brad Bennett Martin Bidney Kevin D’ Andria Kevin Doherty Andrew Fuller H. B. King Carl Kinne Dennis Leipold David W. Martin Kevin Mootoo Justin Padilla Brian Presser Carlton Sackett Jr. Sherry Williamson Bass 1 Eric Bare Ronald Beauchamp Nick DeFeo Richard Dutko Benjamin Elling Russell Feinstein Michael Jabo, J.D. Tom Lamphere Christian Martin David Mizrahi Edward J. Orosz Joshua Perry Mike Pontera Myron F. Shlatz William Clark Snyder Shane Thorn Bass 2 Michael Brenner Carl Bugaiski Jushin Choi David DeMoya Mark Epstein Adam Geier David Hanson Pak Lok Pio Lau Michael Little Sean Marrin Arlo H. Meeker Joseph E. Nelson Daniel Romberger David L. Schriber Donald Lee Stanley Bob Sullivan ’  Bipghagntonw {fig  C 0 : 1 1 " ! q u  _, ‘O fc h e st r a \‘ "  ee) The Binghamton Gommunity Orchestra 2010­2011 SEASON  SCHEDULE Saturday, April 9, 2011, 7pm Sunday, November 21, 2010, 7pm  Helen foley Theatre  at Binghamton High School  Binghamton Community flrchestm  with the Binghamton Youth  Sarah Jane Johnson Church Johnson City, AY Annual STMTA  Winners Concert Tim Perry, Conductor Symphomy Orchestra  Frieda Abdo,  Soprano Barry Peters, Conductor For more information: www.BCOrchestra.com, conductor@BCOrchestra.com or 607 759­9004 The Binghamton University Chorus has been performing major works for chorus and orchestra since 1971.  Its 125+ members include university students, faculty, staff, and a large and loyal group of community singers from throughout the Southern Tier and northern Pennsylvania.  With representatives of all ages and singing experience, it is the most diverse of all of the ensembles at the University.  lts repertoire has included virtually all the major choral works in the standard repertoire including the major works of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms. Verdi, Mendelssohn, Mozart, Haydn, and a sizable number of twentieth and twenty­first century composers.  They perform regularly with the Binghamton University Symphony and the Binghamton Philharmonic including recent performances of Brahms Ein deursches Requiem  and Beethoven Symphony No. 9 under conductor José­Luis Novo. r l I l I :l l I :l I I I I l l l l I i l Something Old Something N e w A C o mm u n i ty  Si ng w i t h  Alice Pa rk e r Saturday, October 16  2010, 3 :00 p m Furst Presbrtenan C   ,h 42 Chenango Street. Binghamton, NY F ol k So n g I nspi rat i ons Directed br  fume  Bover Cotten Sunday, Oc tobe: 17, 201 0 ,  4:00 p m T umty Memoual Episcopal Church,  44 Mam Street, B: NY L esso ns  a n d  Ca rols for C h ri s u n a s 11 0.4 00 pm Saturday,  Novem ber  27, 201 0, 73:0  p m & Sunday, Now Church of t he H ol r Truuty, 346 Prospect Street,  Binghamton,  NY C h o ra l  jo u rn e ys :  D e p a rt u r e s,  Dest i n a t i o ns  a n d  D r e a m s Led hr.  Bruce Borton,  ­ '  '*:e for Artistic Director Sunday,  March 20,  20 11 , 4:00 p m vtenan Church,  42 C henango St e e t ,  Binghamton,  NY Furst P,  Ali‘s F ai r : So n gs  o f L o ve & W a r L e d by James N iblock, candidate for Artistic Di rector aday,  h i m­l l  2011,  4:00 pm  ts P r e s b rt e s i a n   Church , 42 Ci nango Street, Binghamton, N Y (D T h e  M a d ri g a l  C h o i r  o f  B i n g h a m t o n   «  201 0­2011  + 33rd Season  1 KEEIIZZITN For ticket information visit www.madrigalchoir.com or call 607­729–4767 �G  N I G   (eles Thursday, November 1 8 – Mid­Day Concert – 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Thursday, November 18 – Fried heim Memorial Lecture/Recital Series: Claudio Monteverdi, II lamento d ’ Arianna ( Paul Schleuse, spea ker ; C h rist i na Salasny, soprano ; And re w Wal kling, cello a n d  Pa ul Sweeny, guitar ) – 8 p.m. ~ Casadesus Recital Hall – $5 general public; free for students (1 00 student tickets available) F ri da y, Novem ber 1 9 – O rganist J o n a t ha n Biggers : A Bach Celebration ~ 8 p.m. – FA2 1 – $10 general public: $5 faculty/staff/seniors; $2 students Saturda y, Novem ber 20 – Prof. Ti mot h y C hee k (U ni versity of Michigan ) Masterclass on Czech diction a n d  vocal l it e rature – 1 0 a.m. – 1 2 noon and 2 ­ 4 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Sunday, November 21 – Czech Vocal Music : Ma ry Burgess, soprano ; Ti moth y Le Feb v re, baritone ; guest a rt ist Ti moth y C hee k, piano – 3 p.m. – Anderson Center Cham ber Hall – $ 1 5 general public : $ 1 0 faculty/staff/seniors; $5 students T uesday, Novem ber 23 – Percussion E nsem ble – 8 p.m. – Anderson Center Chamber Hall – free Wednesda y, Decem ber 1 – Lecture/Recital with J ie un J a n g,  piano – 8 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Thursday, Decem ber 2 – Holiday Mid­Day Concert – 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Th ursda y, Decem ber 2 – H a r p u r  C hora l e & Women ’s C ho rus – 8 p.m. – Trinity Memorial Church. Binghamton – free F riday, December 3 ~ Flute Studio a nd Flute C ham ber Concert – 10:30 a.m. ­ Casadesus Recital Hall – free Saturday, December 4 – University Symphony O rchestra : America ’s Inner Life ­ 3 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater – $10 general public: $5 faculty/staffiseniors: free for students (Group rate $8 per person) For ticket information, please call the A nderson Box Office at 7 7 7­ ,4 R TS. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio discs Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:17:15 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource First Steps and Final Thoughts: Early and Late Choral Works, November 14, 2010 Recital Tape 2010-11-14 Description An account of the resource Works by Brahms, Mozart, Schubert, DeBussy, Duke, Webb Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Borton, Bruce Sculley, Shiobhan Cannizzo, Victoria MacLennan, Susan Golis, MayBelle Jacobsen, Cabiria Browne, Peter Lawson, William James Hsia, James Serrano, Ella Watrobski, Paul Anderson, Michelle Jacobsen, Cheryl Fuller, Andrew Romberger, David Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/de1ac8eb5602e2316879c2b114fde6f2.pdf 3c6a1a85322a05b7a1906e024c505946 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U  N  I  V  E  R  S  1  T  Y S T A T E   U N I V E R S I T Y   O F  N E W  Y O R K zedec D E R A   R T  M E N T THURSDAY MID ­DAY  CONCERT U“ y  SS S A M”?  "  , a h  N‘\ « 5, S e THURS DAY, NOVEMBER 18, 2010 1:20 P.M. CASADESUS RECITAL HALL �PROGRAM In  this  program  we  present  an  afternoon  of  dance­drumming  from southern Ghana. These ensembles are the collective work the Beginning and  Advanced  sections  of  African  Dance  (THEA  2891/3891;  AFST Beginning African Dance Class/ N u kporfe African Music Ensemble IV. Gahu. Gahu is a neo­traditional dance that h as been adopted and adapted  by the  Ewe people of Ghana. It  is an offshoot of the Gome dance, a Pan­Atlantic African dance form that emerged in the  19th  century  from  the  synthesis  of  European  hymns  and marches  with  West  African  musical  sensibilities.  The  name Gahu suggests an airplane, and represents local experiences with new technology and culture. The songs are often humorous and fun, suggesting themes of courtship and cele bration. V. Kpatsa. This dance comes from a neighbori ng group of the Ewe, known  as  the  Ga­Adangbe.  They  share  many  linguistic  and cultural  affinities  with  the  Ewe,  and  these  two  groups  have historically  interacted  with  each  other.  The  characteristic 289J/389J) and the African  Music  Ensemble (MUS  143B/MUSP 257; AFST  188B).  These  courses are  offered  each  semester  through  the Departments of Africana Studies, Music, and Theatre Dance. Advanced African Dance Class / N u kporfe African Music Ensemble Processional from  the dance Agbekor. These  first three  pieces present the dance Agbekor, a war dance of the Ewe people of Ghana.  As the  drummers and dancers proceed  to  the  stage  in traditional fashion, they sing a war song that calls the warriors to battle against the  European colonial  powers. The second song memorializes  the  great  warrior  Kundo  who  led  warriors  into battle and has been killed. The movements imitate moments of the  battle,  and  follow  the  drum  language  of  the  lead  drum, atsimevu. L II. III. Preludes from the dance Agbekor. These short dance interludes introduce  the  solo  dance  section  that  follows.  Both  of  these pieces  are  among  the  most  technically  demanding  works  in traditional African music. The accompanying music is played in a sharp presto tempo between 190–200 beats per minute, and the musicians must maintain their highly syncopated musical  lines that tend to fall between the beats. The communication between the  lead  drummer  and  dancers is absolute­ every note  cues a movement or gesture. Solo dance flights from the dance Agbekor. The following ten solo dance movements feature a combination of the dance class and Nukporfe. Each sequence is introduced  by the lead drum, and is completed with a turning movement. \ IJ — V E . b Re di   B e   AP S — v­— oi n   o ­  N 2 \ movement  of  K patsa  is  a  limping  gait  that  imitates  the movements of dwarfs, a magical  race of beings which  inhabit rural areas in Ghana. These movements were embellished with dance  combinations  and  eventually  became  a  social  and recreational  dance  known  as  Kpatsa,  whose  name  is  an onomatopoeic reference to the movement of  dwarfs. N u kporfe African Music E nsemble VI. Togo  Atsia.  This  dance  piece  is  made  up  of  a  series  of choreographed dance sequences known as atsia. These sequences are cued by drum language phrases [vugbe ] played by the lead drummer on atsimevu — the tall  drum leaning on the stand — which are answered by the response drum  kidi — the medium– sized drum. In  the  1960s, expert choreographers and drummers in  the  Ghana  Dance  Ensemble  arranged  this  series  of  atisa movements into a performance piece, whic h they dubbed Togo Atsia, in recognition of their origin within E we groups in Togo. VII. Sohoun.  Sohoun  is  an  Ewe­Fon  sacred  dance  used  to  open  a ceremony of the Yeve shrine. The original m ovements danced at the shrine inspired the choreography for t his folkloric  version, created by Dr. Opoku for the Ghana Dance Ensemble. �PERFORMERS Dances Directed and Choreographed by Pierrette Aboadji, Department of Theatre Dance B E G I N N I N G  DANCE­CLASS Caroline  Castro,  John  Charitable,  Luella  Cheng,  Comeisha  Clarke, Jasmine Davis, Nikita Felix, Cristhian Gonzalez, Akilia G reen, Katherine Hall, Ka­Deva Higgs, Farina Jaw, Jianell Jimenez, Aman da Kan, Ryan Kardian, Rachel  Kreutzer, Young Min  Lee, Mei  Li, Wan Hua Li, Htet Lin,  Saul  Nadel,  Kaitlyn  Orr,  Bianca  Parris,  Macarry  Pobanz,  Jenna Salner,  Simone  Scott,  Racquel  Stephenson,  Regina  Thomas,  Symone Wilkinson, Sin­Woong Yun. A D V A N C E D  D ANCE­CLASS Seth  Awotwi,  Vanessa  Ayivi,  Marjhana  Blaise,  Derreck  Boateng, Britney  Brandon,  Shykina  Brown,  Alexis  Bullard,  Keara  Caughman, Hye­Ra  Choi,  Taisha  Destin,  Maria  Gil,  Katherine  Green,  Starleana Holmes, Sangyun Kim, Ton ia  Kurian, Madelyn  Lantigua, Jehoon  Lee, Darwin Martinez, Sakia Miller, Miranda Nortey, Laila Octave, Abosede Ogunbiyi,  Alandra  Price,  Mamadou  Sanogo, Keneka Soares, Monique Thompson, C h uyi Wang, Paa Kwesi Yanful . NUKPORFE DANCERS Vera  Adutwumwaah, Alexandria  Blackman, Shantae Blount, Samantha Bolan, Megan Buah, Lydia G yampoh, Nickesha Kelly, Jul iana Kuffour, Mildred  Ngminebayihi,  Ferrian  Palmer,  Cherub  Ruiz,  Amber  Rivers, Kristen Donaphin, Kpoti Kitissou, Sarah Kuras. Drumming directed and arranged by James Burns, Departments of Music and Africana Studies N UKPORFE MUSICIANS Alex Craver, David Donaphin, Da Ham, Daniel Miller, Seongeun Gu, Wayne Papke, Lisbeth Pereyra, Michaela Pinnock, Stefano Quarta, Kyeong Min Shin, Keaton Rood, Adrian Soto Lopez, Jasmi ne Walker. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:55:00 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146593">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146593</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thursday Mid-day Concert, November 18, 2010 Recital Tape 2010-11-18 Description An account of the resource Works by Agbekor, Gahu, Kpatsa, Sohoun Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aboadji, Pierrette Burns, James Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a478dacb6ed154c74e7fdacb9498d1ba.jpg 3598cf14be1cf3dd6e23d13511db4e8c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b36e16b686b058c45d55ddb2a9a4be05.mp3 a6b42b40249b0e86671ab6ac8dc18551 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Cohen, 1955 May 21- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Robert Cohen is a professor at New York University where he teaches History, Social Studies, Education, and Human Development. He received his Bachelor's degree at SUNY Buffalo and his Ph.D. at the University of California at Berkeley. Cohen also writes books and most of them focus on either history or people as a whole.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Robert Cohen is a professor at New York University where he teaches History, Social Studies, Education, and Human Development. He received his Bachelor's degree at SUNY Buffalo and his Ph.D. at the University of California at Berkeley. Cohen also writes books, most of which focus on either history or people as a whole.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span>University experience; University of South Carolina: Columbia: Berkeley: Free speech movement; Student protest; Walkout; Anti-war movement; Youth activism; SUNY Buffalo; 1960's; Social change; Welfare Rights Group; Black Panthers; Stereotypes; NAACP</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 199:21 Subject LCSH College teachers; New York University; Cohen, Robert, 1955 May 21--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Robert Cohen Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 19 November 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two, testing. Record this. RC (00:00:08): Sure. SM (00:00:09): Yeah. RC (00:00:11): The president, this is the University of South Carolina. I can get the name of the person who spoke, I do not recall it offhand, but it was an administrator, who was explaining this freshman, or I think he called it First-Year Experience. And what happened was, after Kent State, I think it was, the student union building at University of South Carolina was taken over by the student protestors. And the president of the University of South Carolina was pretty upset about this. Like you said, why? How could students be so elevated from the university that they would take over a building? So how can we make them feel better about the university and better orient them? And those conversations led to this creating of this project, Freshman Experience. And it led to what emerged as a whole center at the University of South Carolina that launched this whole First-year Experience thing out of, became a big national, international thing. And now it has gone beyond that. I think there is a Sophomore Experience and there is a Senior Experience. There is a whole... And there's a ton of publications and all that. Anyway, this administrator, whose name I can, if you remind me, I can dig up, spoke at the conference. So he might be somebody, you want to interview. Shows that this had a sort of impact on educational reform. And it came at a place that you would not normally associate with a lot of student protests, which was the University of South Carolina, Columbia. SM (00:01:41): Well, and actually one of my questions later in the interview, deals with the impact that the student protest movement really had on college campus overall, because there is a lot of questions based on, now we are into our third generation since. And first question I want to ask you, I asked this to all of the people I have interviewed is, how did you become who you are? I know that you went to Berkeley, you graduated from Berkeley, you read it up also that you were involved in the 20th anniversary of The Free Speech Movement. But who are you? How did you become a history professor? What was your interest? How did you link up with The Free Speech Movement? Those kinds of things, and who were your role models? RC (00:02:27): Well, I became interested in student protests because I was involved in student protests. I was a high school student at the end of the Vietnam era. So I participated in the moratorium against the Vietnam War. And even as a high school freshman, I was involved in that. And this is in New York City? SM (00:02:54): That was (19)69. RC (00:02:54): Yeah. That is right. And the students, it was in public high school, James Madison in Brooklyn. But there was so much overcrowding back then, that we were not in the main building. We were in an annex building about half mile away. And so myself and some other students helped organize a walkout, a moratorium day, where we were going to walk out of the building and go over to the main building and join the demonstration there against the war, which is what we did. So I got involved and I got involved in the anti-war movement, in part because my brother and my older sister were involved in it. But also because my next door neighbor had been in the Marines. And I used to correspond with him. And he came back disillusioned with the war. And that got me very curious about what was going on with the war. So I think initially, I was interested in it because of the war in Vietnam. I also was very much interested in the civil rights movement. There was a African American student at Madison, who was the first black student to run for president, was Cornell with Knight. And my brother was involved in sort of this campaign, one of the people helping to manage this campaign. And administration was very hostile to it. And I think there was an interest in the civil rights movement itself. And I think, I guess I have always admired people like Bob Moses and they're always [inaudible]. So I think it was through those things that I first got interested. And just as an undergraduate, I was an undergraduate at SUNY Buffalo, and there was a lot of activism there too, centered around the anecdote of- SM (00:04:37): Oh, yeah. Governor Rockefeller, yeah. RC (00:04:43): Yeah. And so I think the student movement of the (19)60s always interesting movement because in part, I came out of that. So I am always interested in the student protest, youth activism in the (19)60s that came in through that experience about trying to stop the war in Vietnam and trying to fight against racial discrimination. SM (00:05:00): So you were at SUNY Buffalo, and then you went on to grad school? RC (00:05:03): Yes at Berkeley. SM (00:05:03): PhD At Berkeley. RC (00:05:05): Yeah. SM (00:05:05): Did you go to Berkeley based on the fact that The Free Speech movement was there? Or you thought it was a great history department? RC (00:05:11): No. I think it entered in my mind, that I might do something about The Free Speech Movement as a study, but it was really mostly because the history department was really such a great department back then, was not so much because of Berkeley's... And the stuff that happened with my connection with The Free Speech movement, was not part of my graduate program, was more like what I was doing because I was a graduate student activist. I was one of the people helped to found the TA union. SM (00:05:41): Teaching Assistant union? RC (00:05:42): Yeah, at Berkeley. That was in the (19)80s, it was called AGSE, Association of Grad Student Employees. And then, let us see, that is me back then. And we were trying to organize on that. And then I was also involved in the anti-apartheid. SM (00:06:02): Oh, yes. RC (00:06:04): I was the editorial page editor of the Daily Californian in the (19)60s. So when I left editor, they blew up some of the- SM (00:06:14): Wow. RC (00:06:16): ...some of the editorials SM (00:06:17): Oh my gosh. Very good. RC (00:06:18): So yeah, this is back in the (19)80s. So anyway, that is the stuff that I was doing. SM (00:06:22): Yeah, the anti-apartheid, that was (19)87, I believe, was not it, the heyday of that? RC (00:06:25): Well, actually, a little earlier. It was actually (19)84, (19)85. Actually, the spring of (19)85 is when I first took off because it was a connection between 2010 anniversary of The Free Speech Movement, which- SM (00:06:39): (19)84. RC (00:06:39): ... (19)84. And this was the poster from that. This is all the- SM (00:06:44): Oh my gosh. Wow, what a great poster. RC (00:06:49): It was organized by a guy named Michael Rossman, who was one of the leaders of The Free Speech Movement. SM (00:06:53): Unbelievable. That is- RC (00:06:55): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that is how I got involved with all this. I think, again, it is a kind of extension of my own background, but also just an interest in social change. SM (00:07:05): And now you are teaching and making sure that future generations understand their history and- RC (00:07:10): Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. SM (00:07:11): ...which is real important. RC (00:07:12): Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I teach teachers too, so that is the other thing. This is part of the education school, and I teach in the history department. In fact, I am doing a course on the (19)60s now with Marilyn Young, who does- SM (00:07:28): Yeah, I interviewed her. Yes. Yes. RC (00:07:30): She does the history of the Vietnam War. Yeah. And I think also, I would say that, the attempt to try to get the people to remember what happened in the (19)60s and just to understand history of social protest more generally. So yeah, I have been involved in this, there was a project, actually, we were working on trying to organize the fifth anniversary, some events around the Port Huron statements, fifth anniversary-anniversary in (19)62. So Tom Hayden was here, and we're going to organize some events around that too. But yeah, that is really what I am just interested in. Teaching students history of, well, I guess not just the, I would say, I have also written a book on the thirties, on student protesting in the thirties, so it is not just the (19)60s, because this is, there is a-a continuum here, protests that is always going on in the United States. SM (00:08:25): One thing is a takeoff because it was my second question is, when you were there in (19)84 and you were a graduate student and you was involved in the planning of the 20th anniversary, what was the difference between (19)64 and (19)84, in terms of the optimism or the feelings of the leaders in (19)64? Because I know Mario Savio was still alive, and Jackie Goldberg and obviously Bettina and others. Where were they in (19)84, in terms of their feelings toward the university that they feel like they had accomplished a lot on at that particular time? What made that such a special event? RC (00:09:10): Yeah. Well actually, I will answer in a second, but just reminded me, have you seen the film, Letter to the Next Generation about Ohio State students? SM (00:09:16): No, I have not seen that. I went to grad school at Ohio State, that is where it was. RC (00:09:20): Oh, then you would have to see this film that is by Jim Klein, called Letter to the Next Generation. It is a film where, he has 1980s students looking back on students from the 1960s. And actually not 1960, but really cannot say, 1970. So you should probably interview him if he's still around because he did a whole movie about this. SM (00:09:40): Well, that was anti-war at Ohio State in (19)72, (19)73. And then... RC (00:09:43): Yeah. Well, because what he is doing, is he is looking at what happened to that generation in the (19)80s? SM (00:09:48): What is his full name? RC (00:09:50): I think it is James Klein. Just Google the book. SM (00:09:54): Klein? RC (00:09:54): Yeah. SM (00:09:54): Okay. RC (00:09:55): If you just Google the movie, it is called Letter to the Next Generation. Okay. SM (00:09:57): And I thought I was up on things. RC (00:10:01): No, it is a really interesting film. I always use it when I teach about the (19)60s because they ask, like what you are saying, about how the generations are different. Now, you were asking about what their attitude was? What the- SM (00:10:12): Yeah, and what did you learn? Obviously, you knew about it, but what did you learn in (19)84 that you did not know about what happened in (19)64, particularly by having that opportunity to meet Mario firsthand and the others firsthand? RC (00:10:27): Well, I think the main thing was just seeing the, first of all, I think one thing was impressive about them was, that they had maintained their interest in democratic change. They were still very idealistic. They did not advertise it like, we made history and you cannot. They wanted to empower people. They thought it was important to let the next generation know what had gone on and their generation. I think that Mario was very involved in the movement against US intervention in Central America. He was very concerned about that. Bettina had been very much concerned about that as well, but also very involved in founding women's studies and gay lesbian rights, woman's issues. Jackie Goldberg had been on the city council and the state legislature in California. These people all had ongoing concerns with social protests. And also the idea was, this is a lot more sort of deeper than taking over a building or something. It was not just bang, bang, bang, boom, boom, boom. It was really a lifelong commitment to trying to make America a more just society. And sort of understanding that I think was important for people. But also, I think it was that, in terms of the students in my generation, it was also seeing that, you had the possibility of making change. That this was not something that was unique to the (19)60s or it was not some brilliant genius that created this, but rather conditions were conducive to it and people felt like that they could make a difference. So I think, what happened at Berkeley, was we had this enormous rally and a series of events about the Free Speech commemoration in October of (19)84. And then I think it sort of startled people that, they could get so many students out because, at that time, the press had been acting as if those students are really all a bunch of yuppies and no one's going to be active anymore. And none of that was really true. But there was a lot of hype about it. And I think this showed that, hey, there is a big progressive community here. There is a big left liberal subculture, we can do things. And I think that fed into this activism against Reagan's imperialist policy of Central America and also this dealing that we could do more on the issue of anti-apartheid. And that was really something that the movement was really getting launched in DC and then Columbia University. Berkeley was not first, but then when to hit Berkeley, it was really big. And in part, I think because in the fall there had been this discussion about activism through these collaboration events. SM (00:13:12): What I like about your book and you talk about Mario, but you make, and your introduction and throughout the book, it is very important for people to read it, I think. I think Your introduction is great because there is two things. The media has a way of building up myths. And one of the myths is that when SDS split, with the weatherman and then the concept of the Black Panthers, some people said they were violent and some people said they were not. The media had a way of taking on the weathermen, as if this was the way the anti-war movement students were. They were all this way, this is the way. And so you make sure that, in your talks with Mario, that that is not true, that the majority of the students were not violent at the very end. And why has the media, in your opinion, tried to portray this generation the way it has? Just sensationalize things. RC (00:14:06): Well, I think a few things. One with the Panthers, I, there definitely was violent, there were wrenches that were very violent. And in New Haven, they tortured and killed somebody. The Bay Area, there was somebody killed. So I think there is, and the weather just a few blocks from here, blew up a building. So it is not that they are not sensationalizing that did happen. But it is a question of, how representative of the thousands and millions of people who are involved in this movement. It is like, yeah, if you have a demonstration and a hundred thousand people march not violently, and then a hundred people throw rocks, who is going to make the headline? So I think that there is an issue about... News is almost by definition what is new and different. And if you have had five years of people doing these large marches against the war, that is not considered news anymore. What is news is, when people carry a flag or blow up a building, that is what is considered news. And that is the story. I was involved in high school anti-war movement in New York City, and it never would have occurred to us to do anything violent. We did not think about that. It was not even a temptation because we just thought anything like that would did not make any sense. And most people would not think that made sense. So I think there is that. I think there is a way in which some of the stuff that happened, this agenda dynamic to it, seems like very masculine and Hollywood to do things that are violent. Or even the style of the panthers, black leather and black berets and there is something slick about it. In fact, there is this book by Thomas... You know this book, Sweet Land of Liberty by Thomas Sugrue about the- SM (00:15:55): I have that, yes. I have not read it, I have it though. RC (00:15:58): Well, what is interesting, by the way of example, he does not dwell much on the Black Panthers because he does not think they had much real impact in changing society. Whereas, if you look at the welfare rights movement, which did benefit lots of people, in other words, they got a lot of people out of poverty and they got government assistance of people who really needed it, but it was not big and flashy. Nobody was wearing berets or anything, leather and berets and taking guns out. And it would be just like that. If you try to depict that in a visual, you would have a bunch of people sitting in a bunch of rooms organizing meetings, which looks like, well, that looks boring, but actually it is helping poor people more than the Panthers did. So he highlights, I think there is statistics like that. And by the way, that movement was headed mostly by women. I think it was tied in with the Great Society's community action. Committees that, like you said, at a place like Philadelphia, 70 percent of the people who were involved in the leadership of that were black women. Now, most people who say in the (19)60s, if you asked them about this welfare rights movement, would you draw a blank? If you ask them about the Black Panthers, they would know that right away. But the question is no, which is more representative? Which is having more of an impact? And I think it is the welfare rights group. But I also think that, what is sensational, what is going to make headlines is what is unusual. It is not to say the violence had no role. You think about the big ghetto rebellions, there was not in fact, there was a kind of outburst of anger and violence that awakened America to some pretty terrible social conditions people were facing. But I do not think that is really... If you looked at Berkeley, for example, Berkeley in (19)64, The Free Speech movement was almost entirely non-violent and it was not even about Vietnam. An issue, if you ask students, they would not even know what it is about because, despite the name, they would think I must have something to do with Vietnam or something because it's the (19)60s, or the draft or whatever. But nothing to do with any of that, just about free speech that grew out of activism that is connected to the civil rights movement. Which was, at that point, pretty relentlessly non-violent. So I think, yeah, there is a way which the (19)60s gets dealt with, through one of the most sort of technicolor, exciting image. Not just violence, but also sex, drugs and rock and roll and thinking about the summer of love and all that counterculture. But if you look at the picture of the students marching to the Regents meeting of The Free Speech Movement, Mario is wearing a tie and coat and the woman are wearing skirts looking... The fact at that point, they were being baited as beat... Like the attack on the students' movement at Berkeley at that time was hip... The word hippie was not even used yet. It was still, people do not think about beatniks. So, it was like beatnik baiting. In other words, oh, there must all be in sandals and have long hair and beards and all that. And this is 1964, the beetles had just come to America, there was not really a counterculture as there would be later in the (19)60s. So, what I am saying is there are distinctive eras within the (19)60s, not just one era. And there's a way in which the easiest way to deal with something is like these stereotypes. And so I think that, there is a lot of obfuscation and a lot of misunderstanding in the (19)60s, because the way that is remembered is through these very dramatic late (19)60s images, both the violent ones that you were alluding to and countercultural ones that, again, it is not that it is based on nothing because there were groups like the Black Panthers and Weather Underground, but tiny. And the NAACP, had a thousand times more members than the Black Panthers. So why are we paying so much more attention to the Black Panthers than the NAACP? Or the same thing you could say about, with The Free Speech Movement is non-violent, so why is it very few people know it is history? It is in part because that is not the images that people have. SM (00:20:09): You bring up two other important points too. And I think when, in the book on Mario Savio and the others about longevity, when you talk about Mario, you are talking about a lifelong activist. He might have had the problems of the depression, some of the other things, but deep down inside his central core was rights. Even as you bring up all the time, the rights was a very important part of what the (19)60s was all about. And there were many people. And the media, again, oftentimes tried to portray that the (19)60s generation or the boomer generation, not just the activist, but overall, they went on to become yuppies. I heard that in Philadelphia, when I was living there, there is a whole section and a lot of them were making money on Wall Street. They were in their early thirties and so forth. So there was that business about longevity. And the other important point you bring up, which is really important. We know Reagan came to power because of the backlash, when he became governor and the whole thing. But this perception, the media again, that Reagan, the Reich came to dominance, so to speak. And what happened in The Free Speech Movement in the protests in the (19)60s, basically, I would not say it was defeated, but the backlash put America back on the right track, so to speak. And you bring up a very important point in the book that, yeah, there may have been a backlash, but it did not have an effect on the rights movement and all the movements. Could you kind of talk about those other two things that the media oftentimes tried to portray? RC (00:21:49): Well, I think that the shift to the right has been very powerful and it is very difficult to deal with, in other words, to overcome it is just that it does not mean the other people disappear. We tend to deal in very simple decade thing. The (19)60s was this, the (19)80s was this. People that have not died, they are still there, or there is a core of people who are still active. So it is very simplistic to think that they do not... The other thing is that there has always been a trend in American history, with officers such as [inaudible] talks about the cycles of American history going between liberalism and reform and privatism and conservatism. So that is nothing new. And the thing is that, the attempt of the right to bring back the (19)50s, or you want put it that way, which has always been the project. Look, you can say, the problem with the analysis, is that the assumption is that the way things are, is the way that they always will be. In other words, thinking when people were making those arguments about Reaganism or Bushsism, whatever you want to say, it was when they were in the White House dominating things. And they have had a lot of political success, so it's easy to think that that is really what matters. But remember that Obama, the election to be president would never ever happen if it was not for the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act of the (19)60s. In other words, so you could just easily argue that, well, the right was just a blip on the screen and it is really the left that is making a difference because we have a president who is African American, which never would have been impossible before the (19)60s or without the (19)60s. But I think, the way I see it, it is an ongoing struggle. In other words, that the right tries to impose its own agenda politically and culturally in America. And there is a lot of resistance to it because a lot of things have changed because of what happened during the (19)60s. Women are not willing to be subordinated the way that they were in the (19)50s. There is a resistance when they try to get rid of, say, Roe versus Wade. Or if you think about the attempts to, every time the US intervenes abroad, there is much more resistance now than there would have been before Vietnam. So whether it is Iraq or Afghanistan or Grenada or Nicaragua, there is pushback in a way that there was not before. So the dynamic, in other words, there is always a right left conflict in the United States. The question is, who is winning and how that is going? And I think that what the (19)60s did was, it gave it a lot more, the left, a lot more resources and ideas about how to push back. So I think, that from my perspective, I think that the backlash events against the (19)60s is very powerful and very worrisome. But on other hand, look, why is it the rights always worried about Murphy Brown or whatever is going on in Hollywood? And this feeling like that there was a cultural revolution in the (19)60s that they lost, even if they take local power, that is why they are so furious, is that they feel like, well we took Congress back, or we took the White House during the Reagan and Bush years. Why is this culture still so progressive? Still so- SM (00:25:09): Good point. RC (00:25:12): ... defying conservatism because there were political transformations that came out in the (19)60s, but then there is backlash and there is also postal transformation in the (19)60s, and they had not been able to reverse all of that. So you turn on TV set now you are going to see, well, black folks on TV, you are going to see women on TV and roles that they would not have played in the (19)50s or early (19)60s. So there is a lot of things I think that the (19)60s changed in an enduring way that I do not think are ever going to go back. But I also think, yeah, there has been.... You know there is another book, Framing the (19)60s, where we talked about the way that the right has used the (19)60s over the years, have you seen that? SM (00:25:51): I probably have that. I try to keep up. I have not read them all. RC (00:25:54): Yeah, that is this one. He talks about the way that Reagan and Bush, all these guys- SM (00:26:00): Framing the... RC (00:26:02): Framing the (19)60s. ... using the (19)60s as a kind of whooping boy to try and basically say that we need to be rescued from the way that America was corrupted and ruined by this decade of disorder and chaos and violence. So in a way, it has given them something to run against. But on the other hand, I think, it strengthened the left in lots of ways that. In other words, what is the simplification is to think that, well, because we won the last election, there has been some great mandate and this huge change that, like Ingrid calling Clinton the Countercultural McGovern. And we were going to get rid of all the things the (19)60s wrecked about America. And basically overreaching and ended up getting kicked out of power because there was a lot of support, not from a government, but just for a different type of society where women have rights, where black have rights, where we're concerned about the general welfare and not just about private profits. So I think that this whole push to the right, has been in part, fueled by this reaction against the changes in the (19)60s. But a lot of people disagree with them and they do not win every election. How do you explain Clinton two terms, then Obama's? And I do not mean to make it just about Democrats and Republicans because it goes deeper than that. Clinton said that if you look back on the (19)60s as a disaster, you are probably a Republican. You look back- SM (00:27:34): [inaudible] RC (00:27:36): ...probably. I think there is something to that, but I think it goes beyond party politics. I think it is more about how are we organizing our values and our lives? And that I think on issues of foreign policy, that runs especially deep. The idea that the United States should not just go around pushing other countries around. And if they do that, then, especially in an aggressive way, there's going to be resistance here. And there has been. SM (00:27:58): It is like Bobby Muller when he came back from... I know Bobby quite well, he came to my retirement party and he said that one of the things he learned about being in Vietnam was, that when he came back, he knew America was not always right. And that was hard for him because when he went into the Marines, he thought America was always right. RC (00:28:17): Well, yeah. Yeah, I think that is true. I think that a lot of people were awakened to the idea that United States, on some level, is not that different from other great powers. And that acts in a self-interested way and sometimes this regards to the rights of other nations. And so the whole question of, when I talk to my teachers, I ask them, how are you going to teach about America's role in the world? Are you going to act as if the United States is just a benign force at all times? Or is the United States an imperialist power? That is a question that I think needs to be asked. Or if you think about Osama bin Laden, the United States during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, act like they were freedom fighters. A decade later, then they were terrorists. Is sort of like, well, there is lots of examples. Think about Iran helping to overthrow Mossadeq. And then you end up with the Shah imposing the Shah, and then you get the rise of the Islamic Republic and Khomeinism. In a way, a lot of these things are connected to stuff we did, or thinking about overthrowing Allende. And the idea that, after that you have Pinochet. A lot of times, by messing with other countries internal history, the way that we do, we get outcomes that are worse than what they started out with. So I think that, that is one of the things that came out of (19)60s is saying, well, look, we are not going to always assume that just because it is US foreign policy, it does not make sense. We are going to ask you, what are you doing? Are you respecting what this other country is about? And is the outcome worse than it was when you inherited it? SM (00:30:04): President Obama is damned if he does or damned if he does not. It is interesting, depending on who you read, supposedly he does not like to identify with the (19)60s. But people, his opponents, criticize him as being the epitome of the (19)60s, in fact, way to the left. RC (00:30:26): So there is always this ridiculous political dynamic in the United States, that anything that is even moderately left to center is seen as being... You see these books that are published that depict him as a socialist. Really on the cover. SM (00:30:35): I hear that, there are people who might, Facebook, some of my conservative students- RC (00:30:39): Or Gingrich, it is completely nutty. I think that, he is so moderate that, I think in a way he sees himself as a post-partisan president and wants to go beyond the (19)60s. So I think that, in a way, maybe one of his mistakes is not understanding, that this whole politics of backlash, that the right in this country's organized and a way they cannot even be civil about it. They have somebody saying, well, my goal... Even in a place and time, like the (19)60s, there is some degree of bipartisanship. You respect the office of the presidency. Here, just this week, they wanted to meet with them to talk about the budget, they are too busy. What I am saying to you is that, in a way, I see the way that he is treated, by the right, as kind of an extension of this unfriendliness towards black rights, towards civil rights. There is an element of that there. I do not mean it is just about race, but I think there is a part of that there. But I also think he is very moderate. I think of him as being... My perspective on him is that, he's been too much thinking that he can move beyond those... He wants to, it is admirable to get United States out of this mode of this left, right dynamic, but there is really no way to, because that is the way, the Republican Party is organized. They're organized basically, to wage class warfare on the poor and that is basically it. And also, I think to have this sort of imperial presence, and it is hard to disengage from that. But you cannot disengage from that if you do not understand or you are not going to articulate. Well, look, we need to have something that is like that, a new, new deal. We are entering into a period of liberal reform or progressive reform and be able to change the discourse. Right now, it is amazing to me, going around the (19)60s, I think there is a whole way in which... It is like Hoover's, it is basically that you are saying that you want to go back to small government, essentially the magic of the free market and deregulation. And that is what caused the crash in the first place. I have a tea party seat at my class, I talked to him about this small department. How do you explain, you think about the last depression we are in, what pulled us out was World War II, the greatest deficit spending in American history. So that was suggest that, the small government solutions that you are talking about is not the way to get out of it. In fact, when Roosevelt used a small government approach in (19)37, it caused a recession. He had a kind of [inaudible], he scaled back on these programs and he got this huge upsurge in unemployment. So I do not know, I guess what I think about this whole thing is that, it is kind of over the top, these attacks on him. On the other hand, I think that he is part of the (19)60s legacy and is resented for that reason. And even though he does not want to identify that way, and I think that is admirable in a certain sense, that you want to not have this partisan, you want to get out of this partisan, but you cannot because the people on the right, see him as an extension of... I think what you see with the right is, any kind of government dimension that is seen as... They do not make the sense between liberalism and socialism. RC (00:34:03): Any kind of government dimension is seen as... They do not make-make sense between liberalism and socialism. And so, they are nutty in that way. There is a big difference between someone who is liberal and someone who is a socialist and that is lost on them. So, I think that in my film, there is a lot of this discussion about Obama... Reflects some of these same issues except that he wants to hold himself above or away from this and it's not really working. SM (00:34:29): When you look at the boomer generation, do you look at the entire... Actually, there is 74 million people in that generation. People have written about the (19)60s, a very small percentage were activists. Depending on who you talk to, I said 15 percent and I have been corrected many times by historians. Thomas Power says, "Steve, 5 percent." But what I am asking here in this question is, if you look at the entire 74 million and, in your book, you concentrate on Mario and some of the new left, what are your thoughts on the whole generation as a whole? RC (00:35:10): Well, first of all, I do not think generations make history. I think people who are active make history. The American Revolution was John Adams. That estimate was a third of people who are opposed, a third were supportive, and a third were neutral. So, to speak about 1770s generation is not particularly meaningful because the Loyalists lost. The apathetic did not make much difference. The people who made the difference were those who were- SM (00:35:35): The few. RC (00:35:38): ...involved in the Patriot cause, so I think that is always true. History has always made by minorities. In other words, what kind of history would you write if you highlighted the fact that the majority of people were not involved. It would be history of inactivity, indifference. So I do not really think that is... To me, I know that argument. The same thing is true, Melvin Dubofsky made that argument about the (19)30s. He wrote an essay called The Not So Turbulent years. And there is a trilogy, or no, a two-volume work by Irving Bernstein called The Turbulent Years about the (19)30s. It's about the labor upheaval and all that. And he wrote an article saying, well, that is really got it backwards. Actually, I do not know if he still, but he used to teach at Binghamton, Melvin Dubofsky, great labor historian. SM (00:36:30): That is right. RC (00:36:32): Anyway, so he made the argument that what we really need to figure out is not why a minority in the labor movement was active and striking, we have to figure out why majority did not strike. And I do not think that is wrong. I think, yeah, we need to know both. So my feeling is, the boomer generation is probably more affected by the cultural changes of the (19)60s. More feminists, more egalitarian, less racist than... In other words, they were there. But like this book I am doing on the South, probably the majority of Southern students, no, definitely majority, were not involved in the student protests. And actually were kind of either indifferent or hostile to it, but still their campuses were changed by it. At the end of the... There is a book about, I mean we are doing a book, there is also a book that came out very recently, I think it is called Sitting in and Standing Up. It is by Jeff Turner at University of Georgia Press, about southern student protests in the (19)60s. And what he found, and what we found in his essays that we are looking at is that the college campuses of the (19)60s started out in the South pretty conservative places. If you were at a place like the University of Alabama, Georgia, there would be no Black students at all, very traditional gender roles, not much academic freedom. By the end of the (19)60s, of course with desegregation that had changed, but also because of the student movement, the anti-war movement had an impact even in the Deep South. So what I am saying to you is those campuses... Today, if you go to a place like the University of Georgia or the University of Alabama, I am sure there would be a woman's studies program, a Black studies program. There would be people who write about American foreign policy in a critical vein. As I am saying is that these institutions were transformed and became more progressive, even if majority people, majority students politically are just sort of mainstream. So I think people were changed by the culture and political atmosphere, even if they were not activists. I do not really... I just do not think that a good way to make history is just by counting numbers, just by counting how people are participating and how many are not- SM (00:38:51): I think some people that have actually kind of emphasized this for people that are trying to lessen the impact these people had by just concentrating on the numbers. RC (00:39:02): Yeah, and I would say that that is a way... You can never really do political history that way because politics is not made by... For example, when we think about 1961, are we concerned with the majority of people in Massachusetts who are not involved in democratic politics or are we trying to figure out what John Kennedy was about? He is one person, right? Well, he is one person who made a big difference because he became President of the United States. So there is a way in which if you really take the logic of that argument, then you are only going to do a certain type of social history and you are not going to look at political history. So it is not just about the (19)60s. As I said, you can the same argument about the Revolution. You can make the same argument about Secession. ow many people were actively involved in the secessionist movement? It was a minority, but it had this enormous impact on the South and on the country. So I do not think that the boomer... When people talk about the boomer generation as a whole, I would not expect any generation the majority would do anything. You are talking about just millions and millions of people. But the fact is that that generation gave birth to the largest mass movement of college student protestors in the history of this country and that is very significant. The first generation that really, a large percentage said no to racism and said no to imperialism, that is significant. That does not mean that a majority of people of that generation, if you look at the polls, majority of people were in the 18 to 21 age group supported the Vietnam War till very-very late. SM (00:40:38): That is right, (19)66. RC (00:40:38): So even beyond, there is that book by Wattenberg and all those, The New Majority that shows that. So it is definitely the case that we are not talking about a majority of that generation doing anything. SM (00:40:52): Do you like the term boomer? RC (00:40:55): Well, I think that is just reflects the baby boom. I do not have a particular problem about it. To me it is not the generation itself, that idea, it is just the basic demographics. It does not tell you all that much. I do not know. SM (00:41:10): Yeah, well one of the things [inaudible] we learned when I was in grad school at Ohio State when reading Harry Edward's book Black Students and some of Kenneth Keniston's books and so forth, is that the (19)60s generation was divided into so many different areas. And Harry talked about the differences between militants, anomic activists, activists, radicals and so forth. That was the first time I really learned the difference between them. And what he was basically saying is that the leaders of the (19)60s movements were oftentimes those born between 1938, (19)39 and (19)45. Because you look at Tom Hayden, you look at Mario Savio, they were in that (19)40 to (19)45 period and they were part of a spirit. But it is a spirit that- RC (00:42:04): Yeah, I think that is true probably for the earlier (19)60s. I think that with the... Remember that both Mario and Hayden were part of the founding fathers and mothers of the New Left. But if you look at the late (19)60s generation, they would fall into that later range. But I do not think, for me it is like saying when I was growing up in that period, I did not feel myself particularly identified as being a boomer. That term does not really have much all that much meaning for me, I think it is a question of the way I see in college campuses. Essentially, you have different subcultures that are either consciously or unconsciously competing to set the tone of their generation. So you have a more academic, more traditional, maybe more political, they're all different types of subcultures that are competing. And in the (19)60s what happened was a sort of more activist subculture really began to dominate. And that is to me what is significant. Not the demographics that it was the largest generation of young people. I think what happened probably could have happened no matter how many young people there were, I guess you could say because there were many more kids in college that had made it possible for this group to have a larger impact. But it is not necessarily so, if you look at the (19)30s, my first book was about student protests during the Great Depression. There was no boomer generation there, but they were the first generation to have mass student protests, the sort of depression generation. I guess what I am saying is to me that is not really the central fact of the era. I guess I would say that probably the fact that it was mostly more affluent era helped to make it so, but when people, you talk about the boomer, they are talking about boomers are talking about the size of the generation. There were so many young people because of the baby boom. And I think that is kind of, to me it is not really the central issue or the central factor that made this all possible. It is sort of the background demographic. And I think the way that it's talked about is, it is often a put down, the boomer generation are these... Because there is so many, they think the whole world is their generation and their self-indulgent and self-centered and all this stuff and I think a lot of that is kind of overstated. I do not think I hardly ever use that, even though I have written a lot about the (19)60s, it is not a term that I have used. I wrote also about student... The southern stuff I have written about is about the opposite end of it. It's about southern students resisting integration at one point. I did not get to finish it, but I was doing a book and I published some articles about the University of Georgia desegregation crisis in (19)61. And I was going to do a comparison of the desegregation crisis in the University of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi. And those students, they said that they were activists initially, they were active on the other side. They were active in resisting change. My article on the Georgia group was called Two Four Six Eight We Do Not Want to Integrate. It is about these white students who essentially rioted outside the dormitory of Charlayne Hunter, later on Charlayne Hunter-Gault, first Black student at the University of Georgia. And they were part of the same boomer generation that Charlene was, or earlier incarnation of what I was. But how is that meaningful? In other words, what does that explain to you? Also, the Young Americans for Freedom- SM (00:45:43): Yes, the brand-new book out on that too, by the way. RC (00:45:45): Yeah. Which book were you- SM (00:45:51): It is a brand-new book by a guy named Pre, Primo? It is really in depth, real thick book. RC (00:45:57): I have this book about, there is several different things, but there's also this Rebecca Klatch's book, A Generation Divided about- SM (00:46:04): Oh, I have that. RC (00:46:05): ...about the New Left and the New Right, looking at the... You see some parallels, but I am just saying if it is a generational thing that makes people progressive, then how do you explain this stuff on the right that is going on? SM (00:46:15): I will email you the- RC (00:46:16): Sure. SM (00:46:16): It is a brand-new book, just came out. RC (00:46:18): No, I had not seen that yet. So what I am saying to you, is to me, it is such a massive group and such a huge category. It does not explain too much. That is why I thought- SM (00:46:28): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what do you think was the watershed ruling? RC (00:46:34): When did the (19)60s begin? Well, there is a lot of people have different perspectives on that. People talk about the long (19)60s. I think that from my perspective, in terms of setting the tone of the decade, really the February of 1960 with the sit-ins in North Carolina, that is at Greensboro, that is really helped to set the tone for what happened politically in the (19)60s. And as far as when it ended, I think that that is more difficult. You could say that it ended with the Vietnam War. There's a lot of dispute about to what extent the social protests of the (19)60s actually ended because a time when after SDS had imploded and the anti-war movement kind of came to a screeching halt because the war ended, you had the beginnings of the feminist movement, you have the upsurge of gay and lesbian liberation, the birth of the environmental movement. So I think it is kind of a complicated question. I think that I tend to think of the United States as a culture that does not have these neat little beginnings and endings. The (19)60s ends as a political... The anti-war movement ended. But in a sense it was reincarnated again every time a new US intervention happened, it's like what's her name talks about this, she rejects the whole idea of the frontier. I am forgetting her name. Patricia Limerick. This is a book about the legacy of conquest. She is the founding mother of the New Western history. And she talked about how people... When does the frontier, when does it close? And she said, "Well, it opens every time there is a dispute about Indian land." Or in other words, her view is that the period ends when you have people looking back on it with... When they make up these sort of Disneyland type of tourist attractions about it. And you could say, well there is a Woodstock museum or something. But it comes back as soon as there is a dispute about land rights and there are. In other words it is like it all starts to come back again. But I think in terms of the larger dynamic, could say that there's a lot of different points we could say. Well, the right, really absurd. Was it the reelection of Nixon in (19)68? Could you say that Chicago and the reelection of Nixon in (19)68 ended the (19)60s? Well, I guess the reason why it is a difficult question is because the (19)60s changed so much and there were so many different areas. You think about legal history, political history, social history, cultural history. There is a lot of different manifestations of the change that the (19)60s made. And you take this Tinker decision about students having the rights in school. There have been a lot of decisions because the Supreme Court moved to the right, whether it is Bethel versus Frazier or any of the other decisions, the bang hits for Jesus one more recently. There is a lot of shifting away from those rights because the (19)60s ended with those decisions or the fact that they still have not thrown Tinker out. Is that so that there's still continuity? So I think you could say the same thing in terms of politics. Does the (19)60s end when Reagan got elected president, then is that really because he was a nemesis of them? Well then how do you explain Obama? But I guess the way I think of in terms of there being mass movements in the streets, that did end with the end of the Vietnam War. And so I think that Doug [inaudible] has an article about this whole question about did the (19)60s ever end? And if you have this concept of the long (19)60s, it could seem like, no, it never ends. But definitely there is a change in the way the politics are organized. There is not like massive... There are not mass movements and mass protests in the streets and on college campuses. And that really ended in the early (19)70s. So I would say probably that is how I would say- SM (00:51:15): The person that you co-teach the course with, Marilyn Young. Has she stated to you when the (19)60s began? Because I asked that question to her. RC (00:51:22): No, we have not gotten to that yet. I do not think I have [inaudible] what would she have said? SM (00:51:25): She said it started with the Beats. RC (00:51:27): Oh, the Beats. Yeah, we actually, we started talking about the Beats. But I mean, that is culturally right? SM (00:51:31): Yes. RC (00:51:31): So I think that I would agree that the roots of... There is a lot of different roots in the (19)50s that make the (19)60s possible. But I think politically I would say, again, that question when you talk about the (19)60s, you could also say, well, in terms of the court cases, you say the (19)60s began with Brown, right? In (19)54. SM (00:51:53): (19)54. RC (00:51:54): So I think it depends on what is it you are focusing on? Is it culture? Is it electoral politics? Is it politics in the street? Is it judicial politics? You would have different answers depending on which of those you are focusing. It is sort of like saying, "When did the Great Depression end?" People say, "Well it did not end until World War II." And I said, "Well macro economically that is true. But if you look at the immediate crisis like the farm crisis or the banking crisis, no, those ended much earlier." So I think that depends on which you were talking about. But I think that if you asked me as a political story, then I would say that it began with the idea of mass protesting, possible as a civil disobedience as a source of social change. It began with the sit-ins in began in Greensboro and it ended a little bit after the war ended. It actually began to cool right after Kent State, in terms of mass protest in the streets. That is what I would say. But in terms of the cultural dynamic and the spinoff of other movements it's a very gendered answer. If we think, well the anti-war movement is what made the (19)60s, then what about the feminist movement which really hit a stride in the (19)70s? The same thing, gay liberation and lesbian liberation, those are things that really took off in the (19)70s. The same thing as the environmental movement and then the upsurge of the anti-nuclear movement. So I think it is maybe a little too sweeping to say it ends here and begins there. But I think something did change in the (19)70s in the sense that they're being mass in the street’s kind of protests. SM (00:53:38): Since people are going to be reading these oral history interviews, I know what the Free Speech Movement is and so do you, but my question here is if you could just briefly describe what the Free Speech Movement was, what it was not, why did it happen? Who were the student leaders and why was this event so important for colleges in (19)64 and beyond? RC (00:54:03): Well, the Free Speech Movement was basically what its name said. It was a contest over freedom of speech initially, where the administration... It started as a kind of board dispute where the university ends and the street, the city begin. And that is a kind of interesting dispute to begin with because in a way, what that was about on the corner of the south corner of the campus is saying that you can have the right to do political advocacy if you are off campus. And they thought that the strip of land on Bancroft and Telegraph avenues was off campus. But then it turned out, they found out that some of the little political tables they used to do organizing were actually on university property, that that strip the land that they thought was owned by the city was actually partially owned by the university and part of it was owned by the university. So then it was violating this university regulation about political neutrality. But if you just think about that, what that means is there's more freedom off campus then there is on campus. The First Amendment will protect your free speech rights off campus but on campus, you cannot do political advocacy. And just think about what that says. I mean, the university is supposed to be a place where you have academic freedom and the free expression of ideas is treasured. And instead, we're saying that, "Well, if this becomes part of the campus, it is got the kiss of death on it." It is sort of like, "No, you cannot do protest here. You cannot do advocacy here." So that is a reflection of the lack of political freedom on campuses, especially Berkeley on campus, that is ever since the Red Scare of our (19)30s. There is a mini Red Scare in the Bay Area after the general strike, where in (19)34 the university put these regulations out about political neutrality that you cannot do advocacy on campus. And that is very oppressive. Basically, it was done to protect the university from being red baited by the university, by the right wing and the state legislature. But how can you have freedom in a university if you cannot have free speech? And how can you have free speech if you cannot advocate? They thought, "Well, you could talk about anything but you cannot advocate something." Well, that is a ridiculous distinction. It is a distinction without difference, there is no way that... Mario said, "You would have to be like a Solomon to be able to make that kind of a distinction." And it was not tenable. And when they got pushed back with, then it would collapse. But the point is that these rules were restrictive and it was reinforced by the loyalty oath and McCarthyism. And even though this is 1964 and the president of the campus, Clark Kerr is a liberal, he is still towing the line with these very restrictive regulations. And so, what really brought this to a head was students were very much affected by the Civil Rights Movement and by the civil rights protests against Barry Goldwater because they had the Democratic... The Republican Convention at the Cow Palace in San Francisco. So students wanted to participate in these things. And then the university tried to clamp down when they found out, the Oakland Tribune reporter came and found out that this is not city property, it is campus property. So therefore the university, "Oh, we have to then stop this organizing." And the students said, "No, we know. Why should we be restricted in our ability to speak and our ability to protest." And the university was not flexible. And the university students began first very politely trying. That is another thing that is important. They did not immediately say, "Okay, let us take over a building." That is not the way people operated back then. They said, "Let us try to petition, this is unreasonable. Let us get the university to reconsider these policies." But the university would not reconsider. It was basically saying that we do not think that the university should be playing this role. And so they would not compromise. I mean, not compromise, there was really no way to compromise in the sense that you either are going to have free speech on campus or you're not. The university wanted to make these compromises, as well. "We will let you have these tables but you cannot advocate political action." And then they changed the position and said, "Well, you can advocate political action, but it cannot be illegal." Well if you are advocating action against racism and that leads to a sit-in, that is illegal. So you are restricting their speech, their ability to make the university a place where students are involved in trying to serve society can organize against racism. And the students felt that was wrong. And that in turn, led to social, to protests, to sit-ins. And that in turn, I think had several effects. One was that it showed students that even though you by yourself are not powerful as a student using civil disobedience as a great equalizer, you can as a student have power if you are organized together. So that is one piece of this. The other thing that I think that the protests led to was students, after they said, "Well, the university is restricting us and this is not right." Then they began to say, "Well, wait a second, why is the university doing this?" In other words, what happened was it began as a movement was about free speech, but it evolved into something else beyond that. Because what I am saying is what happened is once the free speech issue is surfaced, then it led students to wonder, "Well, why is the university doing this? What's wrong with the university itself that it restricts freedom of speech?" And they came to this conclusion that the university was too close to what they call the military industrial complex. And so, was willing to sacrifice freedom of its own students and faculty in order to ingratiate itself with the powers that be. And so in other words, it led to this whole critique of the corporate university, which today is very much in vogue amongst some scholars who would look at the way that the university's become so much... If you look at David Kirp's book Shakespeare, Einstein and the Bottom Line, there's tons of books this criticize the university for being essentially, almost like a business. Or Sheila Slaughter's book Academic Capitalism. There is all this critique of the university as losing its sense of mission. So I think that the point is that it started off as movement just to... Mario came back from Mississippi and no intention at all of launching a mass movement at Berkeley. They were not interested in protesting about the university. They were just intending to keep on doing their activism in the Bay Area. There was all this activism in the Bay Area against discrimination in the local stores, in hotels on Auto Row. They thought they would continue to do that. It was just because the university basically was trying to stop them from doing that by denying them their free speech rights, that they began to focus their attention from off campus to on campus. And then once they started to focus it on campus, they began to be critical of the university because why is the university repressing free speech? And what came out of this movement were several things. One is that it showed that the students could be effective. SM (01:01:15): Hold on a second. Mine is to prepare people to be administrators in higher ed. RC (01:01:25): Oh, that is interesting. SM (01:01:26): Well, go ahead. RC (01:01:30): What I was going to say is that then what happened was... What was significant of the Free Speech Movement was that it won. Most student protests lose, historically. They won. And they won in part because the students had a core issue that a lot of people agreed on, that people should have the right to speak freely. They won because they were mostly non-violent. And so even though it seemed the majority of people in California were opposed to the movement because all they focused on was how disruptive it was. They thought there were riots, there were not riots, there were protests. The students at Sproul Hall did not rush the building. They marched in slowly. It is almost like a formal ceremony. When Joan Baez singing We Shall Overcome and you are walking into a building, that is not like some hijacking going on. That is like a very public act of deliberate and moderate civil disobedience. Non-violent. So what the Free Speech Movement showed was that when students have a large grievance and organized in a non-violent way against it, and also when they start to try to appeal to the faculty, because the Free Speech Movement was not just a student movement. That is another mistake people make. Campuses are not just students and administrators. Very important are the faculty. And what was really going on during the Free Speech Movement and my colleague Reggie Zelnik's article was about this, it was the administration and the students were competing with each other to win over the faculty. And in the end, the students won over the faculty because the administration was so blundering and repressive and worst of all was at the Greek theater when they took Mario off the stage by his tie. And they tried to gag him, basically gagging him. The administration kind of discredited itself. And the students, the faculty eventually on December 8th with their resolutions sided with the Free Speech Movement. And Kerr looked back on this when I interviewed him, the president of the university, looked back on the revolt as a faculty revolt as much as a student revolt. And he was right about that. The faculty, it took a long time because the faculty had loyalty to the university and to the administration. Faculty did not take over any buildings. They are not going to sit in, they generally have more loyalty to the institution and to the administration. But in the end they sided with the students. So I think what it showed is that if you really organize people and educate them on a big issue, and you use civil disobedience non-violently and as a last recourse... In other words, there is another sort of stereotype of the (19)60s that student protest is all about you go take over a building. That is not the way things worked in the Free Speech Movement. That was the last thing they were trying to do. They thought they could win without that. Civil disobedience caused people to get arrested, suspended, it is very painful. It is not the first thing that you do. It is really the last thing that you do. And they only used it when they absolutely felt like they needed to. And so, December 2nd to 3rd, Mario gave his famous speech and all that. They did take over the administration building, but that was because they felt like nothing else had worked. And the faculty eventually sided with them I think because despite the fact that for its time it was very militant, they were non-violent. They had a really important grievance and they spent the whole semester explaining it to people. It is not like these big dramatic moments that you should really focus on when you think about these moments, it is the long, difficult and even tiresome and boring, not boring, I would not say boring, the long and tiresome process of educating people about the issue that you are working on. SM (01:05:27): Like Tom Hayden does constantly. RC (01:05:29): Yeah. SM (01:05:30): With his Facebook page. RC (01:05:31): Yeah, so what I am saying is that what the Free Speech Movement showed is that students can have an influence in shaping history and as long as they organize intelligently, non-violently and in a sustained way and remember that they have to appeal to people outside of their own group, which is what the students did because they brought the faculty along with them. SM (01:05:55): It is interesting that Clark Kerr wrote that book, The Uses of the University, which was required reading in our graduate program at Ohio State. And that is the outline of the corporate world that we are talking about here. When I interviewed Bettina she said she really did not like Clark Kerr, but then in later years there was some situation where they were brought together for some reason. RC (01:06:17): Yeah, he wanted to get some feedback on his memoir, I think. SM (01:06:21): Yeah. And she said, "I really like the man." He was not as bad as he portrayed and of course he was fired by Reagan. RC (01:06:28): Well, I think the thing is that Kerr was basically in a lot of ways an admirable person. He had worked with Paul Taylor and Dorothy Lang, a very progressive background. And if you look at his master plan for California higher education, it was about providing accessible, cheap, higher education to the entire, no, universal higher education. SM (01:06:54): Wish it was still that way. RC (01:06:55): Yeah, I know. So in a way, he was caught between the right and the left. I do not think he was a bad person. He just made some pretty big mistakes in handling the protests. But look at his overall career, he was about... And even the stuff he was talking about, I think he was slightly misinterpreted by the Free Speech Movement. He was not uncritical of corporatization at the university. If you read that book carefully. He does have a kind of celebrating tone, but he does have some sort of... In fact, he is sarcastic at point. He suggests that there is some language in there that Hal Draper took him to task for. But he is sort of saying that, you could prostitute yourself and go too far in the quest for profits, a university could. So he was not uncritical. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to say that once the Free Speech Movement had shown that civil disobedience and students could be this effective force for change, I think that paved the way for what happened with the anti-war movement. That in fact, the Scranton Commission on Campus Unrest talked. RC (01:08:03): ... that in fact, the Scranton Commission on Campus Unrest talked about the free speech movement as the Berkeley invention, which is mass protest, civil disobedience. In other words, it showed that, and just in the semester before you have got all this mass protest on the antiwar issue, that students could be a force for social change. And if they used these tactics. SM (01:08:24): And of course those tactics were the tactics that Dr. King used, and he would- RC (01:08:27): Right, the civil rights movement. SM (01:08:28): Yeah. RC (01:08:28): They were bringing, I mean, really the free speech movement brought the tactics of the civil rights movement, the early civil rights movement and the black student movement onto college campuses. SM (01:08:36): And the teachings and- RC (01:08:37): Yeah. Yeah. If you think about, for example, the sit-in movement, that was a predominantly Black movement in (19)60, (19)61. So, really the people who first, the students who first used civil disobedience on college, no, the first college students to use mass civil disobedience were black students mostly, but they were not using them on campus. They were using them at lunch counters. Was using them as a tool to get rid of Jim Crow off campus. What the free speech movement did was take those tactics that had been so successful off campus, and used them on campus. SM (01:09:05): It is interesting, when I interviewed the late Gaylord Nelson, the senator from Wisconsin, talking about Earth Day, he had a meeting with I think David, well, some of the organizers of the moratorium, and did not want to step on their toes, so there was a partnership there from the get-go. And the importance of the teaching was very important at the very beginning of Earth Day. And Gaylord Nelson wanted to make sure, and he worked with them. Yeah, I know Michael Rossmann, boy, I wish I had met him. In his blog, and I had been reading a lot of stuff before I came here today, he made a comment that really upset him towards the end of his life saying that, "The media has always portrayed Berkeley as this liberal school from the West," And he disagreed with that. He said, "It was not a liberal school. The students were what made this happen. It was not a liberal school. Why do you think we were fighting for these issues?" Your thoughts on Michael? He was really critical of the perception that the media portrays about Berkeley then and now. RC (01:10:08): Well, I think it is complicated. I think there was a... It depends on what you are talking about with Berkeley. There was a core of civil liberties-oriented faculty at Berkeley, who had resisted the loyalty oath from the McCarthy era, and they were the same core people. Some of those were in the same core of people who were resisting the administration, repression during the free speech movement. Now, it is complicated because Strong, the Chancellor, and Kerr, as the president, were also in the loyalty oath. So, those were on the protest of liberty side. So, it is complicated. I do not really think I totally agree with him on the idea that the faculty, the administration, that I think there were... I would say that Berkeley was a progressive place. I mean, look, it was the first, and Rossmann was a part of it even before the free speech movement, back in the late (19)50s, SLATE had been formed. So, there was a kind of progressive tradition at Berkeley. SM (01:11:08): It was (19)58, I believe. RC (01:11:09): Yeah, that went on. And before that it was called TASC, Towards a New Student Community or something. And I think that was made possible in part by the fact that, first of all, Berkeley was aspiring to be a national institution, which meant that it got really top talent in terms of academics. We had some very progressive faculty who were emerging there, some people like Michael Rogan in Political Science, Ken Stamp and Leon Litwack in History, Charles Muscatine in the English department [inaudible] the loyalty oath, and then became a great educational reformer. So, I think that there was a liberal and left subculture there, both on the student body and the faculty. And because of the quality of the place, there was a cosmopolitanism about it, and it was a tradition of the Bay Area that went back all the way back to General Strike, about there being, and there were progressive institutions like KPFA. And so, there is a sort of a left subculture out there. But there is also, I think what he meant was that if you look at the elections, like the student government elections, it was very rare that the left got anywhere. There was a big frat and sorority culture. It was in some ways like a typical Midwestern or Southern campus with a large traditional collegiate culture. And right on the eve of the free speech movement, in fact, I think it was Art Goldberg had told Bettina, "Oh, they just got defeated again in the student government elections." This is sort of like the left did. [inaudible] like, "Oh, well, now this campus is so conservative. We will never get anywhere." And that was going into this myth of this Berkeley being this ultra-radical place, where it was easy to organize. I think that is what Michael meant. In the early (19)60s that was not the case. There was a large, very conventional culture to the place that this insurgency was sort of beginning to challenge. But it was the idea that the average Berkeley student was radical. This is just not true. In fact, I did this article on the chapter in my book on the free speech movement about the rank and file. It's called This is Their Fight, and had the [inaudible]. SM (01:13:16): It is the paperback [inaudible]. Yeah. RC (01:13:18): Yeah, that is right. That looked at the statements that the students made to the judge just before they were sentenced for their arrests for the sitting-in the Sproul Hall. And most of the students were not radicals. They were very reluctant to sit in. They did not want to break the law. They did not want to violate university regulations. They were just pretty moderate. But they felt they had no choice because they wanted to preserve free speech. So, if you look at the number of people who had a radical analysis, saying, "Well, universities are schools of corporations, and we need to resist imperialism and racism," who had this radical critique. It a very small minority. And in fact, if you think about there never would have been a mass movement at Berkeley if it could not reach beyond the small radical core. It had to be able to speak to mainstream students and to moderates and to liberals. And that is really what the free speech movement was able to do. So, I think that is what he meant. In other words, the idea that the Berkeley is this other, and it is like something out of Mars or something and all these aliens, that is how he got this movement. No. You got this movement because he was able to mobilize what was in many ways not a very unconventional campus to really, in fact, if you look at Larry Levine, his essay and the free speech book. He was a faculty member. He had just come from City College in New York when he came to Berkeley in the early (19)60s. And the first thing, the first demonstration he came into contact was not a politics, it was a panty raid. And he was saying, "Oh my God, what am I getting into?" What is this culture like? So, I think what Rossmann was right about was there was a dominant student culture that was setting the tone that was not politically radical or even particularly liberal, but that the movement kind of challenged that and sort of toppled that. SM (01:15:06): What is amazing is that some of the things that were happening in Berkeley were also happening in Harpur and SUNY Binghamton, because Dr. Dearing, within a year after I graduated in (19)70, retired and went up to Upstate Medical Center because his health had gone down. He died actually three years later, but they fired Professor Liebman in the Sociology Department for leading a protest in downtown Binghamton. And when they had the anniversary of the class of 1970, which was my class, this past year, a lot of them were not going back because what's happened is they're building it all up is this, the (19)60s and tie-dyes. And to me, not taking the seriousness of a lot of the issues that were facing the campus at that time. And my high school, when I was in high school, a graduate of SUNY Binghamton was fired from my high school. And that is the reason why I think I really wanted to go to Harpur College, because if somebody is fired for... Because they thought he was a communist. And this is the mid-(19)60s. So, it is a lot of connections between Binghamton and Berkeley in terms of the kinds of students and- RC (01:16:21): Oh, sure. SM (01:16:22): ... And the kinds of issues. And the president who was respected, Bruce Dearing, I do not know if you have ever heard of him. He was respected, but they kicked their OTC off. And when all the residence halls became, when the fraternities became so big, it really disturbed me because the college in the woods right now in SUNI Binghamton is basically all frat guys. And I lived there, and we would not have a frat guy around. They had to go to Cornell to be in fraternities. We banned them. They were banned at Binghamton. They had had to go to Cornell. And so, it is a lot of stuff kind of linked. We were a much smaller school, but we were kind of in, our heart was here. RC (01:17:03): Oh, sure. SM (01:17:03): No question about it. Mario Savio, to me, I mean, you have done an unbelievable book, and I really believe more Americans and young people need to know about this man. I state here, and I just want to put it in here for the record, and that is that who was he? Where did he come from? And just briefly, how did he rise to the top? And what I really like about him was that his motives were totally pure in so many ways, because he was... We were raised in at Ohio State University in the theme of student development, overcoming obstacles in one's life. And to know that he was a stutterer, and to be able to stand up in front of all those people and say what he did. And then also what I like about many of the leaders of the free speech movement you're bringing out so well, it's not about me. It is about us. RC (01:18:09): Yeah. SM (01:18:11): And he did not care about a political career. He cared about an issue that was so, see, that is what I want. That is what to me was the (19)60s was about. Just your thoughts on Mario and- RC (01:18:21): Oh, yeah. Well, I think that Mario basically came at it from a moral position. He came up, he was the oldest boy in a Catholic home, and he was going to be, he had a religious sensibility. He was going to be a priest. And eventually, he did not go that direction. But I think in a certain sense you could see that same moral sensibility as expressed here. He had a very strong sense of right and wrong. And he felt that, particularly with the civil rights movement, he saw what happened at Birmingham where people were being attacked, kids were being, black kids were being attacked by police dogs and fire hoses, that this was really wrong. He felt both shamed and inspired by those protests, ashamed that America would do this and inspired to try to do something to help. And so, I think he had a very strong impetus towards to help those who were being oppressed. Even before the civil rights movement, he had been not before the civil harassment, before he became involved in the summer, he went to Mexico and did poverty work to help poor peasants in Mexico. I think that he felt that one had to take a stand to stop something that would have, to stop evil. And that is what he was really doing. He felt in a way the civil rights movement was, even though he was not religious anymore, he felt that it was, that racism was sinful. And that the attempt to rid of it, to get rid of it was almost like God showing His hand in the world. Even though he was not religious, he still talked about it way, kind of a post-Catholic way of speaking. He had not lost that kind of way of thinking about things. He was pretty broken with his church. And I think that when you think about Savio, that is really what he was about. It was saying that we had to take a moral stance to stop evil and to make democracy possible. And then he went down. So, he became active in the Bay Area civil rights movement, got arrested. When he was in jail, that was about the Sheraton-Palace to try to stop the discrimination in the hotel. And while he was in jail for that, he found out about this Mississippi Freedom Summer and decided, "Well, I am knew tried to go down there." And he did. And he went down there and saw, there, look, in the Bay Area, if you got arrested, it could be inconvenient. Hold on a second. SM (01:20:41): Yep. RC (01:20:43): Sitting in against racism, you can get arrested or possibly hit over the head or something. You could get hurt. But mostly it is about you could get arrested. In Mississippi, you're risking your life. When he was on his way down to Mississippi, in Oxford, Mississippi getting trained by SNCC and the cultural organizers, they found out that the three civil rights workers were missing, Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman. And so, it was really clear from, Bob Moses said, "Do not kid yourself. They are not coming back. And nobody will think any less of you if you just decide, 'Look, I do not want to put my life on the line.'" And the amazing thing is, nobody left. They all went, because they felt like this is really the most important thing happening in America, if not in the world. We are going to stop this pattern of racist violence and decent and disenfranchisement. This is going to stop now, and we are going to help make it happen in collaboration with the black community. It is not that we, mostly white college students are going to save the day. We are going to show solidarity. And down there, this was a movement that was led by black people, by heroic student organizers of African American descent and former students like Bob Moses, and being supported by people within the African American community of Mississippi. And when he was there, he saw, I mean, this is a whole other level of activism because you are risking your life, but you are only there for the summer. Those African Americans who are down there, they are risking their life and their property and their whole futures in a way that is not just the summer. In other words, you go to sign up to vote, and you could lose your land or you could lose your life, and you could have this pattern of harassment that goes on for years, right? And so, what Mario began to see was this is a really a deep and heavy-duty thing. And they were talking about which side are you on? Are you trying to really make America a more democratic place, and what are you willing to do about it? And so, when it came back to Berkeley, and he had the memories of that, he felt when these administrations are trying to cut down the free speech area that made it possible for Berkeley to be a recruiting ground for this kind of activism, the idea is, "Well, look, we were not just kidding down there. That was not some summer lark. This is serious. People down there are risking their lives for their freedom, and you are going to tell me that you are going to stop me from doing this?" And so, essentially what it was about was the solidarity that you're going to take a stance. And also, there is no pretense. There's no jargon. It is very plainspoken. He called it a Jimmy Stewart kind of approach to oratory. We are not talking about the bourgeoisie or the proletariat or high theory. We are talking about just right or wrong, and this is wrong, and we have got to do something about it. And that was not just something that applied to Berkeley and to the free speech issue, but became a lifelong thing for him. That is, when you see people, he came, why did he, he really did not want to be a politician. He was not a politician. He was a brilliant philosophy and science student. He was meant to be a professor or an award-winning scientist. And he wanted to be able to focus on that. But it kept happening that things kept happening in society that he could not put his head in the sand. So, when Reagan is funding this terrorist war in Nicaragua, or the United States is supporting a government in El Salvador that has death squads, or the Apartheid, the United States is subsidizing Apartheid or the anti-immigrants, anti-affirmative action stuff was happening in California in the 1990s. He felt, "I have got to take a stand against this." Or even in his home university at Sonoma State, when he was, really the struggle that he died in the midst of, it was, if we raise these fees, like what is going on now, then the working-class kids are not going to be able to come here, and education should be accessible. So, I think with Mario, what it was really about was a feeling that, "I need to stand up for what's right." And I think that did have an effect on him as a person that I think that it helped him in some way. That was not why he did it, but it did help him work his way through. He had a very hard childhood. He'd been abused as a child. And I think that affected his speech. He had a very bad stammer. And in a way, the liberation of the students, people talk about the (19)60s, being able to find your voice. In a way that was what it was for him. He found his voice by trying to give voice to others by trying to help others be free of their oppression. He became, here you had somebody who could not speak as a child. And now he was a great orator. And to me, that is really symbolic of what the (19)60s at its best was about, was about standing up to help others, and in the process of trying to change and help free others, you are self-freeing yourself, because racism was not just about black people being hurt by it. It also hurt us as a society. It hurt whites as well. It hurt all the generations that were coming up, being raised on intolerance and hatred. So, I think that for Mario, and it also had to do with, it was just this idea that when things were, when something was oppressive and unjust, you have a responsibility to try to do something about it. Even if you are busy doing something else, even if you would rather be doing something else, even if it does not, if it is not good for your career and certainly not good for your health. And in a sense, he died. He lived because of it. In a way, he died because of it too. He died. He had been involved in all these anti-affirmative, in his defense of affirmative action, in challenging those valid initiatives against affirmative action and against immigrant rights. And so, he kind of exhausted himself in that and the [inaudible] battle, and he had a weak heart and he died in the midst of the struggle. His wife thinks that he was so compassionate and so concerned and so activist that you could say that he worked himself to death. Now, that may or may not be the case, but the point is think about how that compares to the stereotype about people from the (19)60s who sell out, who [inaudible] out their politics. It is the exact opposite of that. SM (01:27:11): Yep, [inaudible] RC (01:27:12): Yeah, he never cashed in on any of this. It was really about, "Look, we do not need some great leader to do this. We can do this ourselves." And that was another thing. That is one of the reason why he stepped out of leadership. He did not feel like, you should not need a celebrity leader. You should be able to organize movements where, if you are a good organizer, you will organize your way out of a job because people should be able to organize themselves. SM (01:27:35): That is the Benjamin Barber mentality. Benjamin Barber has written the books on citizenship and the nation that requires a strong president. Well, we want a strong president. But when you have stronger citizens, that is the greater democracy. RC (01:27:50): Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is the idea of participatory democracy, which Mario kind of embodied. SM (01:27:55): Here, I know we are getting out close to the end of our time here, and I have got, we are not going to finish the questions, but is there a connection between the free speech movement and the following events? And I will just list these events. Kent State, 1970, Columbia in (19)68, Harvard Square, the March on Washington in (19)63, the moratorium of (19)69, Earth Day in 1970, Chicago Convention in (19)68. RC (01:28:22): Well, I think that- SM (01:28:23): Any connections there between the free speech movement? RC (01:28:26): Well, I think that just the later events in terms of protest, the idea that you can make a difference by going out in the streets and protesting, I think those are all, but they're all very different events. So, I would say that I would not attribute everything to the free speech movement. I think that there is a kind of way in which there is this ethos of being able to make change through social protests that is connected in all these things. And the later student events you are talking about the idea that the generation, that young people can make a difference, that if you think about those later events you are pointing to. I think there definitely is a connection there. But I would not want to attribute every, in other words, I think if you think about it, the civil rights movement helped to make the free speech movement possible. The free speech movement helped to make the anti-war movement possible. The anti-war movement helped to make the women's movement, the gay liberation movement, environmental movements possible. So, I think there is a connection there between this sort of ethos of social criticism, social protest that the free speech movement helped to promote. But I would not say it was by itself. I think there was these cycles or this pattern of activism that when you get people in motion and they have an impact, then that in turn, on one issue, that in turn can affect them on other issues. SM (01:29:44): I will try to make these brief here, but one of the things about- RC (01:29:48): We can also finish on the phone too. I mean, in other words, we do not have to. In other words, we can always pick it up again. There is not really, you do not have to feel like you have to get it in. I mean, I am available. We can always- SM (01:29:58): Well, this is fascinating. Your students are very lucky to have you because I am a firm believer that students need to know their history, and they do not know enough of it. I have had too many students tell me that the Vietnam War was before World War II, and I have heard stories still that in high school, teachers, at least particularly those that were going to high school in the 1990s, that they do not... Their classes stop in the (19)60s. They do not go beyond. They stopped the history. It is like me when I was in school, it was John Kennedy stops at the Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty or something like that. But the thing, this is a question that, because you talk about Allan Blum and the closing of the American mind. You have got the David Horwitz’s writing all these books because he went from a liberal to a conservative. And political correctness is something that was so prevalent on college campus in the (19)80s and (19)90s, and some say it is still there today. What are your thoughts on those issues? Particularly, I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and Phyllis Schlafly and David Horowitz both believe that the student protestors of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, and they are also teaching the students of today. They run all the studies courses, women's studies, the black studies, the gay and lesbian studies, environmental studies, Asian American studies, Native American studies, Latino studies. They are all the liberals, the left from the (19)60s, and they are only giving one side. So, that is the Schlafly’s and the Horowitz’s. And then you have got Barney Frank, who is a Democrat. He wrote a book called Speaking Frankly, which I think is a very good book, way before all this issue of the environment. And he talks in there about the fact that after the (19)72 election where people supported McGovern, that the Democratic Party will never survive if it cannot stay away from the anti-war people. It has got to make the separation. The Democratic Party has to go a different direction. It cannot be the Teddy Kennedy types. It has got to be a totally different direction. So, here is a Democrat, powerful, even then, a gay Democrat saying that, "We must separate ourselves from the anti-war and the activists of the (19)60s within the Democratic Party." You have got Schlafly and Horowitz saying that today's universe, you have got political correctness saying that as a result of what happened, maybe starting with the free speech movement and the protests and so forth. RC (01:32:34): Well, let me tell you- SM (01:32:34): Gone the other direction. RC (01:32:35): Yeah, I mean, first of all, I mean, I would say this, that I think it is very simplistic to say the university is all one thing or another, just like I was saying before with the boomer generation. It is a very large, complex thing. I mean, on the one hand, what about, I mean, if you look at the University of California, it is a great example. I mean, BP had this huge center for corporate, as what's his name was saying, David Kirk was saying in this book on Shakespeare, Einstein, and the Bottom Line that Mario, by talking about the corporatization of the university was being prophetic. A campus where with the dean of the business school is called the Bank of America Dean. So, the idea, what I am saying to you is that you could make, they focus on a few liberal studies. What about, who has the computer science departments? Who has the business schools? Who is heading the law schools? I mean, the idea that the university was headed by a bunch of radicals, then how could you explain the incredible corporatization of the university? That is such a simplification. The university does all these things that are pillars of the computer revolution, of corporate capitalism. To make it like the university's all one thing, that it's been taken over by radicals, is you are lopping off two-thirds of the university, and the ones, parts of the university that have most of the money. You know what I mean? Why would the universities that, if they are on the left, why would they even have business schools? Where does that come from? So, I think that it is such an oversimplification to judge. You are judging the entire universities by a few disciplines or departments that would lean to the left because of the nature of those departments or disciplines. I think that is really simplistic. I mean, I do not really think of the universities as, I mean, look, if you look, there is a whole literature about the universities, including this one. We had a TA strike that crushed the union. The universities are not being run by radicals. I mean, that is absurd. There is an influence in terms of ideas of people on the left and liberals, sure. That is the case. The majority of academics are liberals, but in terms of, it is such an overstatement to act as if the university is somehow part of the revolutionary left when the university, how do you explain all the stuff about corporatization? And look at the critique by Sheila Slaughter who look at the university as corporate capitalism embodied. I mean, there is a struggle. The university is a contradictory place. Some of the people who were student radicals have gone into academia, but there's lots more people who were never, like you are saying, the majority of people in the boomer generation were not radicals. So, the idea that they have taken over the university is really absurd. SM (01:35:22): Yeah. And my proposition and just your thoughts on this maybe, I have got two more questions, and we will end here, is that today's universities are afraid of the term activism, activists. Volunteerism is, 95 percent of the students are involved in volunteering. A lot of it's required, but a lot of them are doing it. And that is very good. Some people say that is activism. Well, I do believe that is short-term activism. I am talking about the mentality of the Mario Savio’s, the Tom Hayden’s, the Bettina Aptheker’s, which is, "It is my life. It is part of who I am. It is part of my very being. It is 24-7. It is not two days a week at two hours." And I think you are right on that. I think a lot of the people that run today universities are boomers who were not activists, who had the experience of being on campuses and seeing what activism does to a campus, knowing that we are in tough times. And if there's any protests, maybe students will not come to the college. RC (01:36:17): Well, if you look at the disengagement with the students, like Dick Flacks has got the study about California freshman. SM (01:36:21): I am interviewing him. Yeah. RC (01:36:23): Yeah. I mean, if the universities are about making students radical activists, they are doing a pretty poor job. Right? I mean, because you can run academic programs that just are about academics and do not have an activist ethos. So, I think that, if what David Horowitz and Phyllis Schlafly were saying, "Look, for God's sake, we have two wars going on," right? Two, not one, two. Where is the mass protest? Obviously, if the left had taken over college campuses and was there to build mass movements, they are not doing a very good job. Right? So, I think it is a very simplistic view. I mean- SM (01:36:56): Do you think they are afraid of that? Do you think that the universities, people may be the board of trustees or the type of administrators are afraid of activism because it brings back memories of the (19)60s? It could happen again. RC (01:37:09): No. I think it has been so long since they had a mass protest. I do not think that is something that is on their minds. I think that if it came, if it emerged, they probably would feel that way. But right now, I mean, there is also, remember there is a new generation here. There is a 21st century generation of students that is very influenced by computers that may not be, you may be thinking about this too much in a 20th century vein. In other words, that there is a whole new way of looking at things, and activism has been reduced to pushing a button on a computer, which does not necessarily really change things, but people might think that it does. SM (01:37:44): Brought a picture up. RC (01:37:46): That is right. So what I am saying, saying is- it is not necessarily the case that if there is activism, that it would take the form of the (19)60s, or anybody's worried about that, in a way. So, I am just saying I think that the idea that the university are breeding grounds of activism is, it may be in some ways a more interesting place if that was the case. But it is not true. On the other hand, there are books that show that, let me qualify that, there is this new book that came out by Mark Warren, Fire in the Heart. He looks at lots of people who are involved in [inaudible] activists today, and says that people who are activists, some of them did come through those programs that Phyllis Schlafly and those guys are complaining about. And I think, in other words, but that is only a minority. In other words, you can learn to oppose racism and become activists on the college campuses. You can. But that is only a small group that is. SM (01:38:40): Wow, this is interesting. I thought I was up on books. RC (01:38:45): Yeah. Well, yeah. SM (01:38:46): You are really up on them. My last question here, and I asked a little of this- RC (01:38:48): Let me just tell my student I will be right with her. SM (01:38:49): Yep. RC (01:39:00): So I do not lose her. SM (01:39:01): Okay. RC (01:39:01): Hey, how you doing? I will be out in about a minute, okay? [inaudible] Okay, sure. SM (01:39:04): Okay. What did the university learn from the student protest, particularly the free speech movement? What did the university learn from the free speech movement itself? And how has the university changed for the better? And what areas does the university structure still exemplify what the free speech movement was fighting all about in (19)64, (19)65? In other words, is Mario was here today in this room, and I was asking him this question, your response may be different from his, but would he be positive or negative? Or where would he be? RC (01:39:33): Well, actually, he did think that there had been some progress made because he was talking, in the last chapter of the book, he talks about Sonoma State, that the university was not all white anymore. And so in fact, he felt the university was retreating from being free in terms of money at just the wrong time. Just as the university was getting to be desegregated, and there were people of color coming, that all of a sudden it was thousands of dollars. And some people would say, "Well, is that an accident?" Back in the (19)60s when most students are white, it was pretty much free in most places, many places in the public universities. Now that it is probably gotten desegregated to some degree, now it is expensive. It is an interesting argument. So, I think in that sense, he would feel like he felt like there had been progress made in terms of accessibility to higher education. And also, I mean, definitely in terms of free speech, the university, now most universities allow students student rights, and even spread to the high schools through the Tinker decision. So, I think that had changed. I think in terms of the, but the basic issues about what the critique of higher education in terms of how much do we care about teaching? How much do we care about that function of the university serving the poor, that still has not, that is still there. In other words, that university is still about getting big money and trying to service corporate America and the defense establishment. Its top priority is not how can we wage a war on poverty? That is not what is at the top of the agenda for universities. It is like my university, where are they rushing to build a campus? Not in some starving Third World country, but in oil-rich Abu Dhabi. So, I think the idea is that the basic issue about what is the service mission of the university? Who is the university serving? That that has not really changed as much as people like Mario would like it. He thought the university should be a center of the attempt to make America more democratic and more egalitarian. And that would mean giving students of color and working class students more access to higher education. That would mean building an ethos among students that would think, "Okay, how can we change society?" And also if you are going into academics, how can you think- RC (01:42:03): And also if you are going into academics, how can you think critically about society? In other words like generating new ideas to make the society a more just, not just about demonstrating, but okay, what are we learning about our social problems through our studies that we can then act on later on? SM (01:42:16): I think course of this, that the whole issue of fundraising in higher education today is a major issue. We talk about links to corporations, but at the school that I just left, and I know this is the case at several other schools, they had cut back on student life activities and in some places, they are very observant of the fact that if a particular speaker or form or program could affect in any way, the dollar flows from donors, they are a little hesitant to support it. And so by they have ways of controlling it in subtle ways by cutting off the amount of funds. So they cannot bring in controversial speakers. And I think that is a big concern about free speech issues. It's done very subtly as we see racism still exists in our society in a very subtle way. RC (01:43:07): Oh, I agree that the universities do not want to... That dynamic is still there. What I meant about free speech was if students want to organize on an issue, people would know you cannot come down the same way that they did in (19)64. You cannot say that. So... SM (01:43:19): I have a few more questions, but maybe- RC (01:43:21): You can do it on the phone. SM (01:43:22): ... 30 minutes. 30 minutes [inaudible]. RC (01:43:22): Sure. Sure. SM (01:43:22): But I really appreciate it. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Robert Cohen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cohen, Robert, 1955 May 21- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; New York University; Cohen, Robert, 1955 May 21--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Robert Cohen is a professor at New York University, where he teaches History, Social Studies, Education, and Human Development. He received his B.A. at SUNY Buffalo and his PhD. at the University of California at Berkeley. Cohen also writes books, most of which focus on either history or people as a whole. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.40a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.40b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 199:21 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1268f1e5cac376ef2c72e7244e0b34c0.jpg 8a20a3d68e01509e829bdef1a2e7c0eb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa631efedf8af02f17eff97e12e9f8a9.mp3 e92cb22f082e991fe61d85fd1a44532e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-20 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David J. Garrow, 1953- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, Dr. David Garrow is a historian, educator, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a Professor of Law &amp; History, and Distinguished Faculty Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He was the senior advisor for the TV show Eyes on The Prize and a senior research fellow at Homerton College in Cambridge, M.A. He is a regular contributor to the Washington Post, New York Times, and The American Prospect. Garrow graduated magna cum laude from Wesleyan University and then received his Ph.D. from Duke University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, Dr. David Garrow is a historian, educator, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a Professor of Law &amp; History, and Distinguished Faculty Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He was the senior advisor for the TV show <em>Eyes on The Prize</em> and a senior research fellow at Homerton College in Cambridge, M.A. He is a regular contributor to the <em>Washington Post</em>, <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>The American Prospect</em>. Garrow graduated magna cum laude from Wesleyan University and then received his Ph.D. from Duke University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; LGBT rights; Black Panthers; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.; SNCC; Democratic Convention of 1964; Vietnam; Black power movement; Malcolm X; March on Selma; Montgomery March.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; LGBT rights; Black Panthers; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.; SNCC; Democratic Convention of 1964; Vietnam; Black power movement; Malcolm X; March on Selma; Montgomery March.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 126:59 Subject LCSH Historians; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers;University of Pittsburgh. School of Law; Garrow, David J., 1953--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Garrow Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 20 November 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) DG (00:00:04): So, my memory now of the different emails and... SM (00:00:07): I have to check these out every so often. Make sure they are [inaudible]. DG (00:00:10): You run them both on the same thing. SM (00:00:11): Yeah. DG (00:00:11): Yeah, we are on exactly the same thing. SM (00:00:11): Yeah. Well the first hundred I did not, and then Charlie Hardy from the history department told me, "Steve, are you getting two tapes?" Because I have had situations where I damage the tape. And then you have got the backup. And I get them on CD's as fast as possible. And then whatever happens to these tapes, end up at the university or whatever and the CD will be there forever. DG (00:00:36): So, okay. Just the one thought I have had in the back of my mind, looking forward to when we were going to get together. I, for whatever reason, have always been deeply, deeply uncomfortable with any and every invocation of boomer generation as a phrase. Now, for some reason I just really dislike the word boomer. SM (00:01:01): You are not the first that is said that. DG (00:01:01): Okay. Now I do not know. And I am not opposed to periodization or generationalism or eras. So, my problem is not with the concept. My problem is with the word. And it may be that my deep dislike for Bill Clinton is what explains this. Because at least in the journalism of the 1990s, Clinton was presented as the personification of the boomer generation. SM (00:01:39): Yes. DG (00:01:45): Now I gave up on Bill Clinton when he mucked over Lani Guinier in about May or June of 1993. And I sort of wrote him off as any political figure, I was interested in [inaudible 00:02:05]. Well this may be completely my sort of anti-Clintonism being transferred to something that is guilt by association with Bill Clinton. SM (00:02:15): What is interesting is that many people have told me they hate the term. Todd Gitlin actually in my interview said, "If you mentioned the word one more time I am going to stop the interview." There has been some issues. One of the main issues is that people that were born between say (19)39 and (19)45 are closer to the boomers, the frontline, the first 10 years. DG (00:02:37): Todd is a good bit older. SM (00:02:39): Well Todd I think is 42, I interviewed him a long time ago. But Tom Hayden and basically all the leaders of the movement were mostly born between (19)40 and (19)45. And when I was in graduate school, I can remember being taught in class at Ohio State that the majority of the militants were the older people, were the ones that were leading the movement even in (19)70. And they were born before (19)46. For me being born in (19)53. Now I have great respect for Todd, though I do not know him personally at all. I do know Tom Hayden, have known Tom Hayden some personally. DG (00:03:20): But they must have football. SM (00:03:23): Yeah, a football game day. DG (00:03:24): Wow. Oh my god. I do not think Tom Hayden is here from the same generation. I mean I do not exactly know how much older than I am Tom is. SM (00:03:39): Tom is 10 years older. I think he was born in (19)42. DG (00:03:44): I think we may want to wait until the percussion session... SM (00:03:45): Yeah, let me go over, turn it off. DG (00:03:54): And start meeting people as a scholar. I first start meeting people 179, 19 80. So, I am 26 at that time. And whether it is Bayard Rustin, whether it is Mike Harrington, whether it is somebody like Tom Hayden. Bayard is certainly more than a generation older than me. But being 26 at that time, both these are good examples to use, because they are so far apart in age. Being 26 at that time, both Bayard and Tom seemed so much older than I am that they seemed to be more from the same generation. The linkage between the two of them seems to be inherently closer than any possible linkage of say, me to Tom. Now, even the youngest of the SNCC people, say someone who is 17, 18 in say 1964 even, not the first generation of SNCC people in here. I am using generation in a four-year increment. But say even someone who was active in SNCC at age 18 in 1964 is still born in (19)46. So inherently for me, in my Civil Rights movement phase, all of those people seem measurably older than I am. Because to someone who is 26, 27, seven years seems significant. Now that I am 57, seven years does not seem very significant at all. So, I think a lot of my ways of looking at people and thinking about generations and thinking about age is the artifact of how sort of unusually young I was when I first got in the interviewing trenches. SM (00:06:03): Yeah, you raised a good point because you kind of are close to that second half of the boomer generation, which had totally different experiences than the first half. So, for them it is like the older brother and the younger brother. And we had many cases of that. And I think part of the process of doing this book, I have learned so much that you cannot put things into nice packages that there is what I call a spirit. There was a spirit that really crossed, was a part of the front-runners of the generation that were linked to some people that were older, maybe members of the silent generation or those born in World War II. That had similar experiences. And that is what Tom Hayden said. Tom does not like the term boomer. Two questions for you. Up through when does your application of the term run? What is your what is the [inaudible] year? DG (00:06:59): Because I am a higher ed person and all my degrees are in higher ed, higher education looks at the boomer generation as those born between (19)46 and (19)64. And then we get into the generation Xer's, which is 65 to about (19)81, (19)82, there is a little discrepancy there. Just two things then, now given what I am now doing with Barack, Barack was born in (19)61, and all the people I am now interviewing in terms of his contemporaries are either his age, or say in terms of his Harvard classmates, since Barack takes essentially five years off, (19)83 to (19)88 before law school. So, a lot of Barack classmates are five years younger than he is in terms of the people I go interview for this. Now, it is interesting when I interview someone who is born in 1966, entering Harvard Law School of 1988, and they are 13 years younger than me. And I am quite aware that they are younger than me, they do not quite feel like they are from a different generation in the sense that my graduate students are, or my wife's graduate students whom we know. So, I think of some of the PhD's, new PhD's, recent PhD's we know at Cambridge. I am just going to say the names that I think about people like Lee and Julia. They are going to be 30 now roughly, maybe early thirties. So that means they are born 1980. Now they are a generation younger than me in a way that somebody born (19)66 is not so clearly. And then the other thing I was going to say to a Civil Rights historian like me, (19)45, (19)46 looms big, because of how totally different the local world, particularly in the South is, once you have got African American military veterans coming back. When the war ends, (19)45, (19)46, Amzie Moore, Medgar Evers, folks like that. So, my predisposition in terms of how I would periodize things is to draw a line some place in (19)45. And then probably, I guess I would begin in (19)46 because if somebody gets home from the war sometime summer of (19)45, fall of (19)45, the first children of the war are born in (19)46. One my first conscious memories, and I may just be slow and not very good, and I certainly have more reasons than most people to have blocked out good chunks, large chunks, huge chunks of my early childhood. My earliest substantive memories are the Kennedy assassination and the Kennedy funeral, which I saw in person. So, for me, I have vague recollections of my father kvetching about traffic problems because of the march on Washington. So that is three months earlier. So, my first political news memories are from being 10 years old. Now, let me say one other thing, and this is really, really central. And if there is anything profound, I have to say, I think this is profound. And I have been aware of this for going on 30 years and I still cannot wrap my little brain around it. Martin Luther King, the whole ambition of King's public life, takes place in less than 13 years. From late (19)55 to early (19)68. Now, when I started out in (19)79, (19)80, at age 26, age 27, the 13 years from (19)55 to (19)68, 13 years seems like a long time. A really long time. Now here is the crux of my problem. I have now been doing this for, depending on where I put the start point, at least 32 years from when Protest at Selma was published. SM (00:12:16): Yes, I have that. DG (00:12:16): Or in terms of when I started, I started my first day of work on what became Protest at Selma was June 1st, (19)74, which I remember quite clearly because it is when I began work on the senior thesis that ended up as Protest at Selma. Now the notion that I have been doing more or less the same thing, permutations of the same thing for 32 to 36 years. I have very clear memories of, I can picture... One of the weird things with my memory is that I cannot tell you a lot of things about my personal life or things that I did or girlfriends or going to meet, did I speak at a conference? When did I last speak in Louisville? When did I last speak at Princeton? Things about my personal life, personal experiences, none of that sticks. But I can picture almost without exception, virtually every person I have ever interviewed and can picture the room, the scene. SM (00:13:33): So, can I. DG (00:13:34): 1979 forward. SM (00:13:35): Oh, wow. That is really a good story. DG (00:13:38): But it is profoundly weird to me that I have been a historian for 32 plus years. And my 32 plus years does not seem very long to me. Whereas King's public life was only 13 years. I cannot wrap... This is about the limits of my ability to be articulate about this. But in making the answer very simple is that the black freedom struggle of that period happened very, very quickly, very, very intensively. And let me do a further extension or parallel of that. Up until (19)65, when Griswold comes down, and indeed really into (19)66, (19)67, this is just parroting from Liberty and Sexuality, nobody with two or three real, real outlier exceptions, no one has ever thought, ever had the idea of a constitutional right to abortion. Now within the space of six years, never mind 13 with King, within the space of literally six years, and then January (19)73, it is actually more like five. Within the space of five years this, being the idea of a constitutional right to abortion, goes from being non-existent to being the law of the land. That at least initially the relatively non-controversial law of land. So, the speed with which Roe v Wade comes to pass is mind-boggling, even compared to the speed of the black freedom struggle. Now lastly, look at where we are today, where we have been the last 6, 9, 10 years with gay equality, gay marriage. No societal change in my lifetime comes anywhere imaginably close in magnitude and scale and depth to how the status of gay people has changed in American society from when I was in high school until the present day. I have a reasonably clear memory of first realizing that there was such a thing as a gay person in I think maybe my junior or senior year of college at Wesleyan, which should be like 1973. Now that is pretty slow, pretty late. Was I aware that Stonewall had happened? I read the New York Times when I was in high school, so I must have read about this. But I did not have the personal awareness, certainly I had no awareness when I was in high school in Greenwich up through (19)71, there was such a thing as gay people. And I cannot remember who it was at Wesleyan, and I do not know the gay historiography, gay identity theory quite well enough to do this competently. But there is, I think no question as a historical matter, as a legal matter, that the speed and degree of progression with gay social acceptance, gay legal rights is directly concomitant to the public visibility of gay people. Because the more visible, I would argue, the more non-gay people become aware of fundamental similarity, fundamental equality. But needless to say, there is no one who is more totally pro-gay marriage than I am. But I view the speed with which gay people have moved from being either non-present or actively widely harassed, humiliated, discriminated against. I view the speed with which this has happened as just remarkable. So, on all of these things, whether it is the black freedom struggle, 13 years, whether it is right to abortion, five or six years, whether it is gay equality, the last, however, we would put a beginning point on that sometime, whether Stonewall or later. I think the speed of change over the course of my lifetime on the things I care about has been just remarkable. SM (00:19:41): Well those, they are beautiful insights. Because when I was a graduate student at Ohio State, and I believe the spring of (19)71, Dr. Johnson, our advisor, we were talking about the war. In fact, it was a legal aspect in higher ed class. At the very end of the class, he asked all the men to stay after, and well, we were going back to study and whatever. It is in the middle of the winter. And he said, "I want you guys to meet Dr. Allen Hurst." DG (00:20:05): I recognize that name. SM (00:20:07): And we are talking about the war in Vietnam, our whole theory, we were talking about Civil Rights and you were talking about women's issues, whether police can come on campus. We are dealing with a lot of legal issues here. And he says, "I want to introduce to you the guy who is going to get the first PhD in gay history, Amal Hurst from the University of Minnesota." I think he was at Minnesota, and we were looking at each other. First off, we were black and white, no Asians, but black and white. And we were in this room, we all looked at each other, none of us knew hardly anything, we knew nothing about gay people. And we did not even know that there were gay people. And we are talking about African American and white males, who are liberal and pretty well-educated. And so, we did not understand why Dr. Johnson did this, because Phil Tripp was another person that asked Dr. Johnson to introduce them. And he just wanted to make us aware that there is another group that is being discriminated against in our society. And you are going to be dealing with this issue down the road if you are going to have a career in higher ed. DG (00:21:14): Right. SM (00:21:17): And he talked, and Pat comes over. He said, "Was not that strange?" We did not dislike the man. He was brilliant when he talked. And obviously he was a front runner. DG (00:21:24): Right-right. SM (00:21:27): But the fact that here we are dealing with the issues of black and white, male and female, war and peace. And here we are talking about gay rights in 1971. DG (00:21:37): Right now, let me take a pause. Just me to get more coffee. Because given my... Given what you are doing, be sure to look, need to think about the date on it, it is going to be April or May of 2000. So, look on the 2000 menu. And it is a long newspaper piece that I had in the Atlanta Journal constitution discussing the experience of the 40th reunion of SNCC, and the sort of implicit tensions between the ways in which the participant alumni wanted to remember the SNCC experience. Versus what we historians believe we know about the SNCC experience. And my sort of gentle polite point is that, and this reflects a broader belief I have, is that people remember happy experiences much better, much more clearly than they remember negative or unpleasant experiences. That people retain what is happy and pleasing and reassuring and discard that which is troubling and unpleasant. And I first realized that principle, not sure it is correct it is a principle, early on when I was interviewing people who had been in Montgomery (19)55, the (19)59, (19)60 doc's time in Montgomery. And I started to realize that virtually without exception, everybody had very clear, sometimes detailed, memories of the year of the boycott, December (19)55 to December (19)56. But the vast majority of them had very little memory about what happens in Montgomery and what happens with the Montgomery Improvement Association 1957 to 1959. Because there is just a lot of internal tensions and disagreements, and some people are sour about all the attention that is gone to Dr. King. And some people are sour that Mrs. Parks has been sort of forgotten and ignored. But very few people in black Montgomery could sort of narrate their way across the calendar of (19)57, (19)58, (19)59, yet virtually everyone could narrate their way from January to March to June to November of 1956. So, you run into this probably just as much as I do, interviewing hundreds and hundreds of people, whether it is for King, for Roe vs Wade, for Barack Obama. The variegation of human memory, the selectivity of human memory, the way in which human memory moves things around across time and gets chronology bodged up, is fascinating to me. And I deal with it. And in the present context, I deal with it all the time with Obama, especially in the 1980s. Which is the heart of it, the Barack Obama circle, at least in some ways. But so, I have become acutely conscious of the importance of getting sort of it documented, where was Barack at different times in the calendar 1984 or the calendar 1985. So that when I hear different people's memories, I saw Barack in LA or Barack went to this conference in Cambridge, Massachusetts. SM (00:26:06): They do not have any... DG (00:26:14): So that I have got a sort of calendar skeleton to which I can try to attach the memories in some sort of jigsaw puzzle type of way. Because I think I have always thought right back the Selma book, I sort of organize everything I know in chronological fashion. Every set of note cards, every set of three by five cards. Now this 1900-page, single space Obama notes file that I [inaudible]. Everything is organized chronologically, it is the way I understand the world. And maybe I wonder if sometimes I sound an excessively peavey or tiresome interviewer, because I always try to get people to do it chronologically. I sat with someone last Tuesday who has a collection of Barack letters, and we walked our way through them, sort of reading them out loud in order. But I was very pleased that that person had the same orientation I do. The only way to think about the letters is to think about them in chronological order. SM (00:27:37): Well, the question I wanted to ask you is kind of that way, because I was very sensitive, even as a young person in college when I saw that picture of Stokely Carmichael next to Dr. King. And Dr. King has kind of got his arms and... That body language with Dr. King. And then we had James Farmer on the campus, so he talked about Dr. King in meetings. It was a tremendous session. I really liked them. But the question I am getting at here is, in 1954, Brown vs Board of Education was passed. And of course, that was historic. However, when we had Jack Greenberg on campus who worked with Thurgood Marshall and going through the South and all the things that they had to go through, Dr. King was the next phase. And I can remember he really appreciated that there was a past, however, I want now. Right. Dr. King said, Thurgood Marshall has a more gradualist approach. We are going to be non-violent protest, and when we want it now, then you get the time. And Dr. King's only 36, 37 years old. You have got Stokely Carmichael talking to him, out of respect, and said, "Your time is past." Then you have a few years earlier, the debate with Malcolm X and Bayard Rustin, basically the chain... See, what you are seeing is the seemingly older generation was really in the late thirties and early forties being challenged by the late twenties and thirties. And then of course the Black Panthers. The question I am asking you is just your thoughts about young people challenging the system. The question that comes up over and over again is the Civil Rights movement was predominantly, there were not very many boomers inbound of the Civil Rights movement, it was in the fifties. If you are talking about the youngest boomers were going to junior high school in 1959 and (19)60. So how could they really be involved in the Civil Rights movement, except those early students that went on Freedom Summer and they had to be a little bit older. Your thoughts on Boomer participation in the Civil Rights movement, how important were they both black and white? And secondly, your thoughts on this seeming ongoing chronological evolution of the movement by people saying "Your time is past." Yeah. DG (00:30:14): Docs born in (19)29. Most of the other ministers are a little bit older than Doc, or somebody like Fred Shuttlesworth were measurably older. So the ministers, the adult leadership of the movement. I do not know off the top of my head what year Jim Farmer is born in. God, I say his name, I hear that voice. Best voice ever. SM (00:30:34): Oh yeah. DG (00:30:34): So, King is essentially 26 at the time of Montgomery, which certainly seems young to any of us in retrospect. When SNCC gets going in 1960, I do not know precisely what year. Bob Moses is a little bit or older, because Bob's been out, what, three years maybe got a master's degree, he was teaching. So Bob is a little bit older. Jim Forman is probably a little bit older than Bob. Because Jim was, I think, off the top of my head, find out how much older Jim Forman is than John than say Julian Bond. And it is going to be on the order of 10 years, maybe a little more. So, with a few exceptions, for like Jim and to a lesser degree, Bob, most of the people in SNCC are essentially 22, 21 years old in (19)60, (19)61. So, they were born sort of (19)38, (19)39, (19)40. They were 10 years younger than Doc. Now, there was no doubt whatsoever in the context of (19)60 to (19)65, (19)66, that 10-year gap between King and the members of SNCC. Is 10 years a generation? Boy is 10 years a generation. There is no doubt about that. And the younger people who are tied to Doc and SCLC, Bernard Lee, first and foremost. Now Bernard had been in the military. Bernard like Bob Moses may be a little bit older. Well, did Bernard ever graduate from Alabama State? If so, what year? Bernard's, I am not sure. But if you look at the photos of Bernard with Docketing, Bernard is dressing like King and Abernathy and Andy Young. And so, he is sort of acting older than the SNCC people. Now, to my mind, the geographical distinction within SNCC is probably the most important because you have got people like Stokely and Bill Mahoney, people that have gone to Howard and Washington. People whose experience was not simply the South, or not simply the rural south. SM (00:33:30): And Cortland Cox was not ignorant. DG (00:33:32): Yes, exactly. SM (00:33:33): And E Carolyn Brown, who was H Rap Brown's brother. They were both students at Howard. DG (00:33:37): Okay. Now there is another Brown brother whom I know from Brooklyn. SM (00:33:47): We had E Carolyn Brown, we had both of them at our campus and we did a tribute to Bayard Rustin. We did a national tribute to Rustin. DG (00:33:53): Yes-yes, yes. SM (00:33:54): And we had Norman Hill, Rochelle Horowitz- DG (00:33:57): Oh, I love Rochelle. SM (00:33:58): ... And Walter Nagle, Cortland Cox, E Carolyn Brown. Ernie Green came up and spoke, and John Lewis opened the conference. DG (00:34:09): How many years ago was this? SM (00:34:12): Probably we did that conference in (19)99, 2000. John Damilia was the only one that we wanted there that had a bad back and could not make it. And Dr. Levine from Bowdoin College, the historian. DG (00:34:21): Yeah, I am afraid that is not a book I like. SM (00:34:28): Yeah. And then also VP Franklin, we had him there. So, it was a really good conference. And by the way, those tapes are all in the library [inaudible] They were all there. DG (00:34:40): Oh, great. No, I adored Bayard. I saw a lot of Bayard, (19)84 to (19)87 in New York. Because he died what, August of (19)87? I remember we had dinner with him and Walter. I cannot remember where it was. Sometime early that summer, maybe circa June.... right? Sometime early that summer, maybe circa June. This is another weird thing about being a historian. I remember about three, four, five years ago now, picking up ... I certainly did not buy it, but I might have picked it up in a bookstore, I picked it up in the library, there was a somewhat memoir-ish book that Ron Radosh, a historian who started out as a sort of young communist, and then wrote a very good book on the Rosenbergs, and then became a sort of very, very self-identified, very conservative. And Ron had some account in there of a conversation he had with Bayard at a party at the home of myself and the woman I was then living with, Susan, in West Harlem. This would have been probably in (19)85. I have the exact date of the party someplace. And Radosh had the year of the party off by at least two years. I am doing this from memory, we are on tape. I do not want to be unfair. He might have had it off by four years. And I remember thinking, this was weird to me, both because I was not quite prepared for seeing parties I have thrown making it into the history books. And then I was, at best, bemused by the fact that a professional historian could get the date of something from a relatively recent time period so wrong. Then, about two or three years ago, I was completely freaked when someone said to me, a good nine, 10 months after it came out, I know, it is [inaudible] Don Critchlow, who's a conservative Catholic social historian, Don Critchlow emailed me, and said, "Are you aware of what is in Arthur Schlesinger's diaries about you?" I was completely unaware. SM (00:37:08): About you? DG (00:37:09): Yep. And it turned out that someplace in Arthur's diaries, and I have got to think about the date. What was the date of this? Sometime in the early (19)80s. Could be 1980. The first time I met Arthur, I think he invited me to lunch at the Century Club, old and fancy thing, on 43rd or 44th Street, Midtown. Arthur had been acquainted with Stan Levison. Arthur had published his RFK book by that point, talking about RFK signing off on the wire-tapping, and RFK being briefed about King's sex life, and all this. And so, Arthur and I discussed this thing. Discussed family, and certainly discussed some aspects of King's private life over lunch. And lo and behold, there in Arthur's diaries is a perfectly accurate recounting of our lunch conversation. And I was very fortunate. I was quite happy that none of the people that reviewed the book decided that this conversation about King's private life in the diaries merited comment in the newspapers. But again, I mention both of these, because I think of myself very much, and boy, am I conscious about this now in the Obama context. I think of myself as purely a historian. I have no desire to be at ... The last thing I want to do is have anything to do with the 2012 election. So, I find it sort of weird that I am turning up as a character, however minor and brief, I find it sort of weird that I am turning up as a character in the historical record, rather than simply being a third-party chronicler of it, if I am saying this with any clarity. SM (00:39:08): I ended up getting to know Mrs. King's sister, who taught at... DG (00:39:12): Oh, Edith. SM (00:39:12): Edith. DG (00:39:13): Oh, wow. SM (00:39:16): She liked me, and we tried to get her to come, but she was pretty ill, and I have lost touch with her since I left the university. But one time, I asked her, "What did you think of the books written on Dr. King?" And I mentioned your name, Taylor Branch. And she did not like any of them, because of the fact, I think it is because they dealt with the sex life of Dr. King. DG (00:39:37): Right-right. SM (00:39:40): So, probably just does not know the whole history of the ... She just read the books. DG (00:39:44): [inaudible] I mean, I am super conscious of this. And I am firmly comfortable saying this on tape. And this is arguably the most important ethical decision I have ever made in my life. And it was a decision I made in 1979, and it remains an active, live decision today, 31 years later. I first met the woman whom a number of us King scholars referred to privately as the real wife in 1979. And I saw her any number of times back in the eighties. I have not been in active touch with her for some years, though I know Clay Carson has been in very active touch. I will peacefully say that I do not think ... There are certainly some people, or there is certainly one person who has written a lot on Dr. King, who has no clue about who this person really is, and has gotten it wrong in print, and I have politely sort of indicated that. But leaving that one exception aside, there are a good number of us in the world of King scholars, it is true of me, it is true of Clay, it is true of Jim Cone. We have known this lady, and she knows us. She knows we know, we know she knows we know, for 30 years. And I have always thought that so long as she is alive, it is entirely her decision as to whether she wants to publicly acknowledge the relationship. SM (00:41:27): Right. Yeah. DG (00:41:27): Now, I know Clay has said to her, probably more than once, and this is not an exact quote he was to say, that sooner rather than later, she would sit down with a tape recorder, and make some tapes, and put them in an envelope, and wrap it up, and put whatever future date she wants on that envelope. And that is my belief, too. So certainly, I mean, Taylor did not know what he was doing on this. But all the rest of us, we made a conscious decision that I think this is still right, I still believe it, that we could give an honest portrayal of what was going on in King's life, without having to out her. We have been incomplete, but I do not think it has been, in any way, misleading. And I think the balance of interests has played out correctly. Now, 2020, coming up on 25 years later, that is not the world we live in now. So, there is a little bit of an artifact there. SM (00:42:41): When you talk about Dr. King, because he is such an important figure in the lives of boomers, I do not care, you had to be in a cave not to be affected by him if you are a member of the generation. What was Thurgood Marshall's thoughts on Dr. King's commentary, that he appreciated the gradualist approach, and the passage of the law, but we are going to do it a different way. We are going to [inaudible]. What did Thurgood Marshall think of Dr. King, and vice versa? And secondly, when Dr. King had those kinds of challenging comments given to him by Stokely Carmichael, what was the relationship between those two men? I have a sense. Because here was a man of stature, and he knew who he was, but he could take it like, he could take his part, because you have got to be a thick skin to be in the position there. But, to me, those are very important. A lot of people portray Stokely as this Black Panther that is got ... but he was a smart guy. DG (00:43:41): Yes-yes, yes-yes. Yeah. SM (00:43:41): So, talk about Martin Luther King and Stokely. DG (00:43:41): Sure-sure. Sure. Yeah. Let me [inaudible]. Let me grab a book. Hold on. I just want to grab a book. SM (00:43:52): Because these are all important things. And my interviews, again, are oral histories, based on not only about the times that people lived, but the interesting and historic facts within those times, that are part of boomer lives. And of course, I am caught up in this boomer, I am actually not seeing it that much anymore. DG (00:44:16): Okay. There is no doubt that for King, that both Thurgood Marshall and Roy Wilkins seemed a generation older to him than he is. Now, both Marshall and Wilkins, as I am sure you realize, and the Marshall pieces of it are memorialized in that not very good Carl Rowan book, and in the perfectly solid Juan Williams book. Marshall, for whatever combination of reasons, of both ego, and envy, and strategic disagreement, and commitment to being a lawyer, Marshall's view of King is dismissive, sarcastic, hostile, right from early 1956 forward. Now, part of it is reasonably rooted in the lawyer's perception that the NAACP LDF lawyers always have to clean up the legal mess after some protest campaign. And oftentimes get left holding some sort of financial bag. With Roy Wilkins, the envy, jealousy, hatred of King is, I think, less defensible, less explicable. It is just pure competition, that the NAACP is so self-important, and so full of itself, that it does not want a younger organizational competitor. Now, that is mirrored with Wyatt Walker's reaction to SNCC, because Wyatt has the same sort of my organization first attitude, with regard to SCLC, that especially Wilkins and Thurgood Marshall, too, had about the NAACP. Now, Doc, Dr. King, Doc does not share that, because Doc never buys into the sort of organizational ego model. And that is one of the many reasons why King is most oftentimes always a morally superior leadership figure to the whole raft of everybody else, because he is able to practice a degree of self-abnegation that is unusual. And we can say this to mean, and I say that relative, not just the Civil Rights Movement egos, but to egotistical and selfish behavior in the Pro-Choice movement, where I think it is at least as bad. Interestingly, I would argue that there has been dramatically less selfish, egotistical behavior the last 10 to 15 years, in the legal part of the Gay Rights movement. And I think that that absence of self-seeking, self-promoting behavior among Gay Rights legal advocates, has been a significant factor in why they have been so successful. Now, Stokely, then, and Stokely is a challenger. Keep in mind, Stokely is a challenger within SNCC. So, the John Lewis, [inaudible], et cetera. SM (00:47:55): Yeah. DG (00:48:06): Stokely is a challenger within SNCC, as well as a challenger to Doc. And Stokely is a very, very bright ... Stokely was a very bright, and in many, many respects, a very likable person, who unfortunately had a little bit of a sickness, the profound sickness of anti-Semitism. But Stokely did not have the degree of ego self-control that Doc did, which is why Stokely allows himself to be swung into the damaging media circus of what does Black power mean, in the way that he was in (19)66, (19)67. And Stokely is sort of like a comet passing by. I mean, there is John Lewis, then there is Stokely, then all of a sudden, you have got Rap Brown. And then I would make a fourth generational point here, just to sort of complete it. And they may technically, they are older by dint of age, but it almost seems like a subsequent generation, the sort of Oakland-based Panthers represented by Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale, et cetera, et cetera. And this is only the second thing, I would recommended it, and I will limit myself to two. If you are at all interested in Panther stuff, about two and a half years ago, I wrote a really, I think, first rate, really powerful little historiographical essay on the Panther literature, where I put in some deadly, deadly end notes dissecting bad faux scholarship. It is in Reviews in American History, I think December, 2007. So, it will be on the 2007 page on the website. I mean, the Panthers are a hugely important presence, (19)67 to the early seventies. The quality of the literature on the Panthers is horrible, just horrible. SM (00:50:27): I interviewed Roz Payne now, last week. DG (00:50:29): She is incredible. Roz Payne is a good person. SM (00:50:37): Her photography, and [inaudible] you can read any of this stuff. DG (00:50:38): Roz is ... yeah-yeah, yeah. That is great. But so much of the Panther scholarly, big quotation marks, "literature," is the worst sort of fan-ship stuff. It is like bad early communist party historiography, where the people writing about CP USA, wanted to simply celebrate the importance of communists. And CP historiography has improved measurably over the last 15 years. And I am certain Panther historiography will improve over time, once we get past the fan club devotees. But the Panther historiography is really important, because there are many positive commendable things about the Panthers. And many, many more really despicable, horrible, evil things about the Panthers. And just as I was saying earlier about human memory, and people remembering the good and forgetting the bad, oh boy, do we see that, this is not in bad taste, in spades in Panther material, because both the participants themselves and the fan-ship historians want to talk about breakfast programs, breakfast programs, breakfast programs. And not talk about the frigging thuggery where they are killing people. And I do not mean cops, I mean a variety of innocent, undeserving supporters. So, there is that sort of generational succession from Marshall to King to Stokely to Huey. That is inevitable in the same way that we get a sort of succession within the reproductive rights movement from a Katherine Hepburn senior, to an Estelle Griswold, to a Bob Hall, an Alan Guttmacher, or a Roy Lucas. SM (00:52:42): What is interesting about the Panthers, and I have been asked by people that I have interviewed that you cannot just ... it is like you said in that article about always mentioning the organizations, and the top civil rights leaders. Well, yeah, we would like to talk about Stokely Carmichael, and Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale, but there was Kathleen Cleaver, there was Eldridge Cleaver, there was H. Rap Brown, if they liked him or not. There was Fred Hampton who was killed in Chicago. There was Bobby Hutton, who was killed. There was... DG (00:53:33): It is a very mixed bag of people. I mean, Kathleen Cleaver, that group. Newton, at one point, is something of a positive figure, before he goes way downhill. I cannot be, at any time, as positive about Eldridge. I actually think that much of the best Panther activism happened away from the Oakland epicenter, in the same way that an awful lot of the best of SNCC happened away from the Atlanta epicenter. SM (00:54:04): When we talk about the anti-war movement in the (19)60s going violent, we know the SDS and the Weathermen. We know what happened there. We know what happened in the American Indian movement. There was violence at Wounded Knee. What happened at Alcatraz was fine. And then we see some violence with the Young Bloods, the Puerto Rican group that was following the Black Panthers. So, we see a lot of violence here. And the question is, were the Black Panthers violent? There is a question, "No, they were not." "Yes, they are." "No, they were not." "They are not the Weathermen." DG (00:54:38): The Panthers devolved into an organized crime gang. The Panthers are, what is his name? It is not a fully honest book. The guy who was the security head who is now in New York. He has got a very unusual name. I am blocking the first name. I want to say his last name is Forbes. Forbes? SM (00:54:57): Black Panther? DG (00:54:57): Yeah, Panther. SM (00:54:58): Oh. I only know Dave Hilliard is the guy in charge. DG (00:55:01): Yeah. Yeah. I cannot [inaudible]. SM (00:55:03): Elaine Brown, I think. I think David Horowitz believes that she is the person responsible for the murder of... DG (00:55:11): Betty, the secretary. SM (00:55:12): Yes. DG (00:55:12): I mean, I cannot think of anything positive to say about Elaine Brown, or David Hilliard, or David Horowitz. But on the ... I forget her, I am not going to get her name right, Betty Lou Prader? Pratter? SM (00:55:27): Yes. Betty Van Patton? Was that her name, or something like that? DG (00:55:27): Yeah, something on, yeah. I apologize for not having it right. On that one, Horowitz may have benefited from the Blind Pig phenomenon. I am not good enough ... I do not know the SDS decline well enough to narrate all the splits. I wish that people like Bill Ayers, and I have a lot of respect for Bill in some ways. I wish that people like Bill and Bernadine and... SM (00:56:17): I have been trying to get her to be interviewed, and she just [inaudible]. Well, she does not even say yes or no. She would not even respond. Her secretary said, "I give it to her." She does not even respond. DG (00:56:25): Yeah. I wish the people from that whole world were a little more publicly honest with themselves. SM (00:56:36): Martin [inaudible] has been. DG (00:56:38): Has he? Okay. SM (00:56:39): I think Martin... DG (00:56:39): See, I do not follow with that. The person on whom I have always relied, whose judgment I have always relied upon for that world is Todd. SM (00:56:48): Oh, yeah. DG (00:56:48): Todd is sort of my guidepost for that, because to the extent I know it, and that extent is limited and modest, Todd is the person who gets it right. SM (00:57:03): I do not know how much more time you have? DG (00:57:05): It is more a question of my tiredness. We can go to another five, 10 minutes. SM (00:57:09): Okay, great. And then I will finish it on a phone conversation. DG (00:57:12): Sure-sure. SM (00:57:12): I have got some real quick questions I have put together since you are home. The Civil Rights Movement is so important in the lives of boomers. Again, you would have to be in a cage to not realize it. DG (00:57:25): Right. SM (00:57:25): And it is so important, because we all know that have studied the history of that period, that the Freedom Summer of (19)64, but way before Freedom Summer, people like Tom Hayden and others who went South. DG (00:57:36): Going South. Yep-yep, yep, yep-yep. SM (00:57:37): Casey... DG (00:57:37): Casey Hayden. SM (00:57:38): Casey Hayden, who is going to be interviewed with me. She is always... DG (00:57:42): She is a beautiful person. SM (00:57:42): She does not do interviews anymore, though. DG (00:57:44): Oh, really? SM (00:57:45): No, she is very hesitant. And I guess she is pretty sick. And she has got some very bad back problems, and everything. DG (00:57:51): Oh, okay. SM (00:57:53): But the question I am getting at is, would not you say that the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s was the catalyst for everything that followed? Anti-War movement, the Women's movement, the Gay and Lesbian movement, the Environmental movement, the Chicano movement, and the Native American movement. Because they use that, history books have said that it was the model on how to do things. DG (00:58:18): Yep. Now I am quite positive on Sara Evan's book, which is really the book to make... SM (00:58:25): Personal Choices? DG (00:58:40): Yeah-yeah. Personal Politics. SM (00:58:40): Personal Politics. DG (00:58:40): And Sara's book, if I am remembering this right, is 1980, I want to think? SM (00:58:40): I think that is right. I would say that. DG (00:58:46): Now, I think that basic notion is correct to a degree, but to a modest degree. And it varies by movement. The white folks who go South, both early on, like Tom, like Joni, and then the larger group that go South in (19)64, and a smattering of those who go in (19)65.I think if we look at the individual biographical trajectories of those people, and I do not like saying this, but I mean, it is the honest thing to say, they do not turn out to be, on the whole, terribly influential people. Given their pedigrees, they actually should have been more influential. And that raises the bigger question, which you can see on any SNCC email lists or set of exchanges, that participation in something as intense, and emotional, and threatening as the movement, tends to, at least to some measurable degree, to produce instances of personal emotional traumatization of whatever sort. Now, I do not know enough, and I am rusty enough on that Alden from Saint and company, the sort of psychiatric psychological literature of the mid to late (19)60s on Civil Rights movement volunteers, and I have got various ambivalences about that literature that we do not need to go into. But I guess you could make the argument, quite fair-minded argument, as a scholar, that the people who chose to go South, were, of course, not a random distribution. But these were already people who were self-identified as dissenters, or uncomfortable, or outside the norm. SM (01:00:57): And many red diaper babies. DG (01:00:59): Yeah. It is not just ideological. And certainly, I completely agree on the diaper baby aspect of it. So, the fact that these people end up having a post (19)64, (19)65 higher-than-average casualty rate, in terms of their sort of social connectivity, it could be, to some degree, the result of pre-selection, and not just the result of the trauma of being in Neshoba County Mississippi, or wherever, in 1964. Now, I am not sure where, anywhere I was going to go after that. SM (01:01:47): Would not you say, though, that probably one of the most important results of those young people being around the Free Speech movement at Berkeley in (19)64- It looks like the other one here. I am going to be out at Berkeley. They have got a statue out there that they put up for the Free Speech Movement. DG (01:02:14): Oh, okay. SM (01:02:14): I am going to be out there next week vacationing. But I am going to be going to the... DG (01:02:24): Certainly, in terms of Sabio, and the FS, and then Berkeley, yeah, there is a direct line of connection. And there is some direct line of connection as Sara's book very nicely traces out, to many of the early feminist groupings grouplex, especially in New York. When you look, though, and this is where I am switching over to liberty and sexuality, in terms of the actual legislative initiatives and activism around the legislative initiatives, and with the legal initiatives that lead to Roe and Doe, the right to abortion is the product not of the feminist movement, it is the product of a relatively small-sized network of mainly male, or disproportionately male, professionals, doctors, public health people, journalists, lawyers. So, even if this is sort of politically incorrect in some sectors of the planet, I do not see the ... it is incorrect to see Roe versus Wade as a product of feminist activism. It is a product of professional reformers, very impressive, committed professional reformers. Where the doctors are crucial and the lawyers are crucial. Now, some of the lawyers are young women. But just as many of the important lawyers are young men. And you can argue young men are quite committed to the idea of sexual freedom, unsurprisingly. Now, I do not know. I am not good and I do not know American Indian movement history at all. I do not know Chicano history well at all. But I think that we have to moderate and de-limit the notion that everything else flows directly from the Black Freedom struggle in the South. Both because the direct personal linkages are actually relatively modest, though that is a separable question from a sort of, the category of was a Cesar Chavez, was a whomever, inspired by watching King, inspired by watching John Lewis? That, I cannot judge. That is outside of my purview. So, anything else, or are we... SM (01:05:33): I guess we will finish this up at another time. And I thank you. DG (01:05:37): Oh, sure. SM (01:05:37): I did not expect to have this. And I really, it is an honor. DG (01:05:48): No, I wanted to do it. No, I felt ... I spent 98 percent of my life in your position, trying to get former Obama classmates, or campaign staffers, or whatever, to talk to me. SM (01:05:55): Right. DG (01:05:55): So, my sense of the karma is just too overwhelming. SM (01:06:03): Well, what is interesting, Dr. Garrow, is that this is my first book. All these years I have been in hiding. I have been so busy being a college administrator, working with students, I have not had a chance. But this is actually an oral history. This is going to be like a Studs Terkel [inaudible] ideas. But my next venture, I am in my early (19)60s, and I am starting late, but my next venture is something that Lewis Baldwin, the historian, said that I ought to do. And that is something, Dr. King is one of my all-time heroes. And I worked in higher education for 30 years, and I make sure every year we get a tribute to him. And I got heat for it. DG (01:06:42): Right, right-right. SM (01:06:43): I got a lot of heat. Not in more recent years, but in some of the other years. And my dream is that someday do an in-depth look, in-depth, at him and his Vietnam Memorial. Because Vietnam and Civil Rights were two areas that I am closely linked to. DG (01:07:05): You want to, I mean, I hope he is in good health. Up there in years. SM (01:07:09): [inaudible]? DG (01:07:09): No-no, no. Vince Harding, in Denver. SM (01:07:13): Oh. DG (01:07:13): Look up Vincent. Vincent is someone you need to be aware of. Vincent has some contributing role in Vietnam and Speech. I would have to ask Clay or somebody else, somebody, or Steve Fayer, from Eyes on the Prize. Steve would know. But Vincent would be good. Pay attention to that name. Look up Vincent. Vincent is probably older than Doc. So, Vincent is going to be born in the twenties. But Vincent is, to some degree, a sort of lesser male version of Ella Baker, in terms of encouraging the young people across the (19)60s. SM (01:07:52): Yeah, well, one of my first interviews was with Julian Bond, and he said, that was one of my early ones. And I brought Julian into our campus twice, and went down to the [inaudible] Memorial in Washington, and he was thrust into the emcee role, with about 10 minute's notice. But then I had John Lewis, I interviewed him for the book, and we had him on our campus. Of course, Lewis Baldwin came to our campus. And so, I have been involved in this for a very long time. And the final question I was going to ask here, let us see, my golly. That is a very long one. DG (01:08:29): Go ahead and state it. I mean, this is my body clock. SM (01:08:34): Yeah, I understand. DG (01:08:39): I am just starting, [inaudible], and physically, having spoken this morning, too. SM (01:08:41): I guess the last question I will ask, and that is something that you brought up when you mentioned in that article that I read off the web, about the fact that we tend to, as human beings, and as a society, and the media, to always go to the big-name organizations and the well-known names. We did a program on Dr. King at Westchester University, where we invited Linn Washington. I do not know if you know Linn? He wrote a book on Black judges in Pennsylvania? DG (01:09:13): No. SM (01:09:14): And a Professor from Villanova. And we talked about the unknown heroes. DG (01:09:21): [inaudible]. SM (01:09:24): The things that if Dr. King was alive today, he would say it is all the people that have gone and died that we will never know who they were, and what they did. DG (01:09:36): Yeah-yeah, yeah. SM (01:09:36): Because the movement could not have happened without that. Could you say a little bit about the unknown names [inaudible]. DG (01:09:43): You will see King repeatedly over time use the phrase, ground crew. He has got some extended airline metaphor about, it is not just pilots, it is the ground crew. I mean, that is repeatedly inescapably true, locale after locale, after locale. Whether... SM (01:10:03): It is capably true locale after locale after locale, whether in Montgomery, whether in Albany, whether in Birmingham or Selma. Let me just, the one last thing to say on this, sure you know this already, but just to emphasize it, keep in mind that in Birmingham in particular, we have got such a degree of active participation by people who are not yet high school graduates. And so, you have a degree of youth in terms of 15-year-olds in Birmingham in 1963, so that your actual in the streets lead, wedge in Birmingham, James Orange. James Orange is an important name for you. Because James graduated when did James graduate Parker High School? I am not going to get this right. Look up James. I hope somebody has done a good Wikipedia on James. And who was, I am going to, I am rush on this, who was the principal? Was Angela Davis's father, the principal at Parker High School? Angela Davis comes from Birmingham, and there is a lot of, I may have this, I have to send this, who is principal of Parker High School is important, but I may have [inaudible] about the Davis' versus someone else. DG (01:11:31): He was there when the little girl died in the church fire. SM (01:11:31): Yeah-yeah. DG (01:11:31): Yeah. SM (01:11:36): Look up Sheryll Cashin's father too. John Cashin, who was a dentist in Huntsville. Sheryll was a wonderful... DG (01:11:42): How do you spell that last name? SM (01:11:43): C A S H I N. Sheryll was a law professor at Georgetown. Wonderful lady. And she wrote a memoir, published a memoir about two, three years ago, about her daddy. And the daddy was so committed to activism that he was always putting his family in, potentially, dire straits. So, I have not, unfortunately, read it, but it is a memoir about the family cost of activism. And she was a really good person. Great. DG (01:12:20): She was a Georgetown? SM (01:12:20): Yeah. And so, David, Sheryll. S H E R Y L L Cashin. DG (01:12:26): David Coles there, I think. SM (01:12:27): Yes-yes, yes. Yeah. But Birmingham should stand out for you because so many of the young participants in Birmingham are post 45. DG (01:12:36): Yes-yes. SM (01:12:36): Date of birth. So, we should stop, I am, and I will just put it here. DG (01:12:41): Sure. SM (01:12:48): One of the things about Barack Obama, what is interesting is that he tries to not be identified with the boomers, of the (19)60s generation, yet the press keeps saying he is the reincarnation of it. So, is not been that an oxymoron that he was trying to disassociate himself from it? I have read everything that has been written about Barack, at least with any sort of biographical linkage. And I have not seen that or otherwise, have not thought about it. But that may be, again, me tuning out when I see the word boomer. DG (01:13:28): Oh yes. SM (01:13:29): That may be what is going on. DG (01:13:31): I think they say the (19)60s generation. I think that is what they do. SM (01:13:38): Yeah, sure. And again, thanks again for bearing with me here and... DG (01:13:41): Oh sure. SM (01:13:41): Being patient. What was the working relationship like between Dr. King and the other members of the Big four? James Farmer, Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young? What was their relationship like? Wilkins, like the NAACP hierarchy in general, including Thurgood Marshall and Wilkins' direct deputies like John Marshall viewed King with the, had a leery view of King from the get-go as a potential threat to the or NAACP's organizational primacy. DG (01:14:34): And certainly, once King formed SCLC in 1957, and then especially once the student movement got active in 1960, the NAACP's disdain, dislike for King became more pronounced. So, the King, Wilkins relationship was never close and was pretty consistently fraught with dislike, disdain on Wilkins's part. King learned to just tolerate it. I think King was significantly more comfortable with both Jim Farmer and with Whitney Young. They were never close, close, nor was King in any way close with Floyd McKissick, after McKissick replaces Jim Farmer, (19)66-ish, King and Young, as is well known, had some tensions after (19)65, because, true, Young was much more directly aligned with Lyndon Johnson and did not share King's opposition to the Vietnam War, had one well-known face off, not quite argument, but disagreeable conversation during the period when John Lewis's head of SNCC. They are, that is a somewhat closer relationship, but it is not as close as I think some people may imagine it, nowadays or in recent time. SM (01:16:45): Is there truth to that story that when President Kennedy was concerned about the March on Washington (19)63, when the group met at the White House, was, actually A. Phillip Randolph was kind of the father figure and all the other civil rights leaders, he was very worried about potential violence in the city, and he was hesitant to support it, but he was very concerned what John Lewis was going to say. And... DG (01:17:13): Mr. Randolph was without a doubt, the presiding elder in that entire context of 1963. The overblown or exaggerated worries about the 1963 March were, I think, shared pretty widely throughout the Kennedy administration, not just on the part of the President. And I do not think the President was as, was any more concerned or worried than a good many people in DOJ and in the White House. SM (01:17:55): When you look at the speech he gave in New York in (19)67 against the Vietnam War, did he consult with any of his other peers before giving that speech? In other words, the other members of the Big Four or... DG (01:18:13): No. SM (01:18:14): Either in other members of SCLC? DG (01:18:16): No. The relationship among the leaders is never at any point, that interlinked. Steven Courier, wealthy Financial Person, Foundation head, who died in a plane crash sometime (19)66, (19)67-ish, I am not sure of the date. Steve Courier had tried to bring all of the African American Civil Rights leaders together in a thing called Cook Roll Count, CUCRL, Council for United Civil Rights Leadership, which was a, sort of, effort to create a regular conversational structure. It never really got anywhere, because really none of them were that interested in giving up their independence to that degree. So, King, the people King consulted most closely with, and this is true from (19)62 onward up to (19)68, are the two circles of one his immediate people around him in SCLC, Wyatt Walker, And he, Wyatt leaves in (19)64. Andy Young, oftentimes Jim Bevel, Ralph Abernathy, and Bernard Lee, in a different, less policy-oriented way. But the people who really had the most substantive political policy and analytical, intellectual interaction with King are really King's New Yorkers, Stan Levison, Clarence Jones, Bayard Rustin, Harry Walk Tell, Marion Logan, a little bit less so. Mike Harrington, a little bit less so, but it really is the New Yorkers who were the Brain Trust, and Bayard and Stan in particular, Clarence, probably third Harry Walk Tell, Fourth, they are in many respects, the most important sounding boards for King, even though he spent a whole lot more time in a day of the week, hours per day, sense with Bernard Lee and Ralph Abernathy. Come Vietnam, there are some other important voices in there too. Vincent Harding, John McGuire, who certainly make contributions to that, to the... SM (01:21:07): Did Rabbi Heschel play an important role here too? DG (01:21:10): Excuse me, I am sorry? SM (01:21:11): Did Rabbi Heschel play an important role in his... DG (01:21:14): No-no. SM (01:21:15): No? DG (01:21:16): No, I do not think there is, there is a little bit of contact there. You could say the same thing for Ben Spot, but no, I am... Thanks to the wiretap transcripts. This is, again, one of the great ironies of the FBI. Thanks to the wiretap transcripts, one can have a real good idea of who King is in contact with, because the transcripts we have with Stan, with Clarence, with Bayard, make really clear who else King is talking with too. SM (01:21:50): Very good. Yeah, because I know there is a lot of discussion out there that he played a major role in that Vietnam speech. DG (01:21:58): Heschel? SM (01:21:58): Yeah. Persuading him to do it, not... DG (01:22:01): Oh. No, I would have to think about how the invitation to go to Riverside comes into being, but no, I would not... SM (01:22:19): Would you agree that March on Washington (19)63, how many people were there? I have heard different numbers. DG (01:22:26): I do not want to do that off the top of my head, whatever. I know I looked at that with a critical edge when I did, bearing the cross. So, whatever I said in bearing the cross would be my own best conclusion about the numbers that were used contemporaneously. Hold on just a second for me. SM (01:22:53): Yep. DG (01:22:53): I want to turn the temperature on the fan up a bit. Sorry, here we go. SM (01:23:10): Is it pretty cold in Chicago? DG (01:23:12): No, actually not. When I came back in, I made it cooler and where I am sitting here, it just blows directly on me. SM (01:23:22): One of the, I think we talked about this briefly at Princeton, but one of the sensitivities about the civil rights movement, is the sexism and the few women were at the leader, in the leadership roles. But I have some questions. I met with Dr. Cohen this past, yesterday, in fact, down in New York City. DG (01:23:44): Oh, Jim Cohen? SM (01:23:45): No, Robert Cohen who wrote, [crosstalk] free speech movement. DG (01:23:46): Oh, sure-sure, sure. SM (01:23:48): And he is writing a new book now on the activism in the South, the African American activism in the South amongst the young students in the early (19)60s, which has not been written about as much, and a lot of women were in key roles there. Your thoughts on what the media has portrayed as a sexism within the movement, particularly when you look at the March on Washington (19)63, you see Dorothy Height there and Mahalia Jackson was there singing, but you do not see there, any other, really, women leaders? DG (01:24:21): No, they went through them. I would not get the entire roster of names correct off the top of my head, but there is a series of quick introductions of other women and did it include Mrs. Parks? Did it include Diane Nash Bevel? Did it include Gloria Richardson from Cambridge, Maryland? Part of what is an issue in the limits on women's organizational participation in the movement, part of that grows out of, in some aspects of the movement, grows straight out of the black church, gender roles, gender structure. Part of it too, simply just parallels what there is in all of the US society at that time, wholly separate from, apart from the movement, but the most important women to name, I always draw back when the first name people use is Dorothy Height, because Dorothy Height was simply someone who was the head of an organization with an office in Washington, period. People like Diane Nash, people like Gloria Richardson, people like Joanne Robinson in Montgomery, people like Amelia Boynton in Selma. One could go on and on at the local level, and one could also do the same thing with people like Ruby, Doris Smith Robinson in women played major roles in most of the locales, most of the organizations Septima Clark, Dorothy Cotton in SCL C, and did not get much credit or appropriate credit until years later in some of the literature. But the question of women's roles should be looked at from that fundamentally local, fundamentally southern lens knocked through a sort of DC interest group perspective. SM (01:26:45): Would you say that, I asked a question to everyone. I think I may have asked it to you, as well, but when did the (19)60s begin and end and many people feel that the (19)60s began at the lunch counters? DG (01:27:00): Oh, yeah. No, I would very much agree with the February 1, 1960 dating. I do not think I am going to cast a vote on when they end, because if I had to choose, I think I would say when RFK is shot in Los Angeles, more so than when Doc is killed. SM (01:27:36): Why did, this is interesting because Bayard Rustin's a big name here. Yeah. He is from Westchester, and we did a conference on this, and I have read in several books, Dr. Levine's book and John de Emilio's book. There is a lot of explanations here, but I would like to hear from you, why did Dr. King not fire Bayard Rustin? He had people... DG (01:27:54): Sorry, in what time frame? SM (01:27:57): In that time frame, I think Jose Williams was one of the biggest critics of Bayard Rustin, and did not really like him. And because he was a gay person, and... DG (01:28:08): Well, I was in the major attack on Bayard is what Adam Powell mounts back in 1960, for God knows what reasons, maybe because he is carrying water for national political party leadership, I think is the most likely answer. And King, as I said, in baring the crosses, other people have said Emilio, too. I mean, King behaves very badly towards Bayard in 1960. SM (01:28:43): In what way? In what way? DG (01:28:43): In contrast, everybody behaves very well, very courageously in 1963 when Strom Thurmond and others go after Rustin in the context of the (19)63 March, and Bayard from (19)63 into (19)66, (19)67, what Bayard and Mr. Randolph are saying about, and Tom Kahn are saying about economic policy issues and questions, is a big, big, big influence on what is going on in progressive circles in the 1960s. And a big, big influence on King. Where Bayard draws a lot of criticism, is in Bayard's reluctance, unwillingness, tardiness, to be critical of the Vietnam War, which seems all the more pronounced, and to some people inexplicable or contradictory, given Bayard's, deep pacifist roots and credentials going back to the 1940s. SM (01:30:00): Would you say though that even when Dr. King went north, I remember he went into the Chicago area and there were criticism within the ranks of SCLC and in other groups, that he should stay in the South, that racism was really an issue in the South and not in the North. DG (01:30:20): I think most of the disagreement within SCLC, was fundamentally, rooted in the fact that the staff were virtually all Southerners, lifetime Southerners, who, understandably, felt much more comfortable anywhere in the South than they would in any northern city, whether Chicago, New York, Newark, et cetera. In retrospect, how much of a mistake was it for Doc and SCLC to come to Chicago? The local movement here that invited them, Al Raby was a vibrant local network, although it was a vibrant local network set in a context where a heavy majority of African Americans were, African Americans who were politically active, were unsurprisingly, tied fairly closely to the Democratic machine. SM (01:31:35): Could you describe Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and then maybe some of the members of the Big Four as well? Their response to black power and to the Black Panthers, as a whole? I say this for a couple reasons. Number one, there is that picture of Dr. King next to Stokely Carmichael, and Stokely may be one of the more respected Black Panthers, but he was in SNNC, and then he went to the Black Panthers as... DG (01:32:03): Yeah, but I would never speak of Stokely as a panther. The Panthers, to me are a very separate kettle of fish from what Stokely and Willie Ricks, and other people from SNCC who really use the black power phrase represent. And the people who put forward the black power phrase ,and the black power emphasis from the Southern movement, I think are a quite understandable product of what black people are looking at in a context like Lowndes County, Alabama in (19)65, (19)66, where in contrast, in huge total contrast, to what Bayard Rustin is seeing at the national level, where Bayard and other national political voices are seeing the Democratic party and labor unions, as the best vehicles and allies for the black policy agenda. In a context like Alabama, the Democratic Party simply means George Wallace. So, there is a really almost complete disconnect between what black activists are experiencing in a rural southern context and what the world looks like to someone like Bayard. The Panthers are largely a San Francisco Bay area phenomenon, who then acquire somewhat spontaneously adherence supporters, enlistees, in a series of varied other locales, whether it is Chicago and other cities, both large and small. I think it is very, very difficult to speak comprehensively, about the Panthers in any, to any meaningful degree, because what the Panthers represented in Baltimore or Boston or Chicago, is not necessarily what they represented in Oakland. The historiography on the Black Panther party is not very large, and today, not very good. And we have got a long way to go on that. SM (01:35:01): How did the, I always remember, even in college, I remember Charles, I think it is Charles Silverman's Crisis in Black and White? DG (01:35:09): Oh, yeah. Yep. SM (01:35:10): A great book that we read in sociology class back in the late (19)60s, which was a required reading. And I will never forget the line in there where Dr. King did not fear the bigot, and he knew his supporters, but he feared the fence sitter, the one that we never know what they think, but he felt they were the more dangerous. And one of the things about after King, is that he was very open and you knew what he was thinking. I often wondered what Thurgood Marshall thought when Dr. King was coming to power. And the Brown versus Board of Education decision in (19)54 was monumental. It was historic, but it was a more gradualist approach to rights for African Americans. Whereas Dr. King said, I praise that decision, but we want it now. And so... DG (01:36:05): No, let me... SM (01:36:05): The time of change. So, he was basically challenging the methods of Thurgood Marshall, your thoughts on how did Thurgood respond to Dr. King, and the style of non-violent protest? DG (01:36:13): Well, Thurgood Marshall was, Thurgood Marshall was a lawyer, through and through, and believed totally in a constitutional, constitutional rights, constitutional litigation through the courts approach to civil rights change. Marshall was very dubious, doubtful, sarcastic, about any notion that people getting arrested and facing criminal charges, could make any positive contribution. So, Marshall's disdain, is a disdain for the entire concept of civil disobedience as a social change strategy? SM (01:37:13): Did that, I often wonder then, Dr. King then when he was in his late thirties, and I know Bayard Rustin's the same way, were challenged by the new ones, the Stokely’s and the, I guess, H. Rap Brown... DG (01:37:27): I actually, I actually believe that the King-Stokely relationship was both closer and more respectful than most people have been willing to appreciate or acknowledge. Stokely and Willie Ricks enjoyed the politics of theater, or theatrical politics of, the theatrical aspects of black power politics, a little bit too much for anyone's good. But I view Stokely as someone who was trying to push the envelope without totally leaving the King frame of reference. SM (01:38:26): Yeah, because then you get the H Rap Browns who was in SNNC, and then he became a Black Panther, and a lot of people thought he went to violence. DG (01:38:40): I do not believe Rap had much of any relationship with Dr. King. And again, I do not think either Stokely or Rap should be discussed in terms of the Panthers, because that is a brief potential organizational alliance that goes nowhere. SM (01:39:00): What did Dr. King think of the Huey Newtons and the Bobby Seals, though, would not he... DG (01:39:06): I am unaware of any evidence that he thought about them much at all. SM (01:39:12): Okay. DG (01:39:12): You just do not see much reference to it at all. I do not think King ever met any of those folks in person that I am aware of. Even passively. I would have to, I think that is the right answer. I just want, I would want to think about that. But... SM (01:39:37): In some of my interviews that I have had, and again, your opinion would be very important on this. When we talk about the student protest movement of the (19)60s, a lot of people will say, well, the boomers were both born between (19)46 and (19)64. I know Dr. King had many young teenagers in his movement, but basically the civil rights movement was older people, whereas the boomers really came to power with the anti-war movement of Vietnam, women's movement and all the other movements in the late (19)60s. So thus, the boomers did not have much of an influence in the civil rights movement. Do you believe that? DG (01:40:14): But it varies by organization and by locale. Now, most everyone who was in SNCC would have been roughly 20, 22 years old in 1960, 1962. You do not, I am not sure you have anybody, you do not have many people in SNCC born after (19)46. Now, at a local level, in a place like Birmingham where you have a lot of high school student participation, though simply at a protest or demonstrator level, if you were 18 years old in 1963, that means you were born in (19)45. So, you would have a little bit there. But then even people who are 22 years old in 1968, in terms of people who are graduating from active and anti-war stuff, only a little bit of people who would be born, say (19)46, (19)47-ish. SM (01:41:30): And this is, just the information you just gave me, shows that trying to pinpoint a generation based on years (19)46 to (19)64 really takes away a lot, because I am talking the spirit, and I have had more and more people tell me that those people born, say between (19)38 and (19)45 are as, are closer to the first generation, the first 10-year boomers than the boomers of the last 10 years. Because it is... DG (01:42:03): Yeah, I would... SM (01:42:04): It is a spirit thing. DG (01:42:05): Yep. I would agree with that. Yes. SM (01:42:06): Yeah. So thus, they are linked in a very important way. Your thoughts on the relationship between Dr. King and Malcolm X? Malcolm died in (19)65. Correct me. I think they liked each other, but... DG (01:42:21): As best we know, they only met in person once that, the well-known photo of it. I think they had a significant degree of mutually shared respect. I think it is, fundamentally, erroneous for people to think of them as opponents or opposites. And I think Malcolm needs to be viewed primarily through the lens of the last 12 months of his life, when he is independent from Elijah and the Nation of Islam. SM (01:43:02): I have always thought, as a person who loves history, I am not as a historian like you, but I have always, history was my major, that there is a link between Malcolm X and Bobby Kennedy, and I have always felt that the link was just what you said, that Malcolm changed, all people were not devils. He saw when he went over to Mecca and he came back, he was a change man, and that is, Bobby Kennedy was the same way. DG (01:43:30): Yep, that is a very good, when you first started saying that, I thought, no, this does not make any sense. But no. Then when you explained exact, you explained the parallel. No, I completely confirm with, because that is a very insightful linkage. SM (01:43:47): Yeah. Because the Bobby that we saw in the hearings for Jimmy Hoffa is not the Bobby that we saw in (19)67 and (19)68. DG (01:43:53): Exactly. SM (01:43:55): And so, I just see tremendous passion in caring for fellow human beings. Overall, what was the relationship between SNCC and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference all throughout their history? DG (01:44:08): Oh, that is, I mean... SM (01:44:08): I do not, I... DG (01:44:08): That is book length, yeah. SM (01:44:11): Yeah. DG (01:44:18): SCLC helps give birth to SNCC, by the time of Albany and December of (19)61, especially into the summer of (19)62, many of the younger people in SNCC become somewhat disdain of King's hesitance, as well as King's media stature. The SNCC people are both more impatient and more locally oriented. By the time of the Democratic Convention in (19)64, the SNCC people have a much more critical... The snake people have a much more critical, much more cynical worldview than King and Bayard Rustin. By the time of Selma and Montgomery in the spring of (19)65, the tensions and disagreements are pretty pronounced, and you do have a sort of clear split between the organizations, even though there is still a lot of close personal ties one-on-one. And then ironically, in some respect, the two organizations come together in opposing Vietnam. SM (01:45:55): What some people have written, that when SNCC was breaking up, many went to become Black Panthers. Is that true? DG (01:46:06): No, I do not... I think the Panthers loom rather small in the whole thing. I am not sure there was ever a Panthers operation in Atlanta, for example. I am not sure there is. One thing that has to be kept in mind is that, and some of the more recent literature on the Panthers documents this, that you clearly had people setting themselves up in... I am not sure I would select the town accurately off the top of my head, Omaha, Nebraska, maybe you have people setting, announcing that they are Black Panthers in some city and the official Black Panther party in Oakland does not know anything about them, but the Panthers are as much a media phenomenon as they are anything else? SM (01:47:09): We know the impact that the young students who went south for Freedom Summer and even before Freedom Summer had in terms of many of the students that were at the free speech movement and at Berkeley and (19)64, (19)65, and certainly the influence that the movement had on the anti-war and the other movements in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Is there a direct, would you say that the concept of participatory democracy, which was in the SDS manifesto, which Tom Hayden wrote, and also what happened out at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65 with the free speech where they talked about participatory democracy, it all began with SNCC. DG (01:47:54): Yes. Certainly Tom, and I mean this... It has been years since I read and reviewed Tom's book, but I believe my recollection is that Tom's memoir makes it very clear how much he was influenced by what he saw of SNCC when he went south early on. Because remember Tom is in Albany for some chunk of time. I think there is significant direct influence from SNCC to early SDS to free speech movement in Berkeley. Again, my memory on this is a little rusty because it is, so many years have passed. Tim Miller's book- SM (01:48:39): Democracy in the Streets? DG (01:48:40): Yeah, it has been probably 20 years now since that book came out, but I remember that as being really first-rate and very much on target in analyzing those relationships and influences and linkages. SM (01:48:59): How important was Coretta Scott King, her role before and after Dr. King's death and- DG (01:49:06): Very little. Before Doc's death, close to zero and not that significant after. SM (01:49:21): Because I have a question here because we see a lot of her, but what is interesting is that they had four children yet that it was such a dysfunctional family after his death. Not so much right after his death, but certainly as they got into their twenties and thirties fighting over the center and when are they going to sell it and- DG (01:49:40): Unfortunately, the whole SCLC world becomes dysfunctional after Doc's death because you have disagreements between Ralph Abernathy and Mrs. King. You have disagreements between Jose Williams and Ralph, between... Throw Andy Young into the mix, throw Jesse Jackson into the mix. There are no happy stories from (19)68 forward in SCLC in the King Center, there are no happy stories at all. Joseph Lowry is the one creditable survivor who comes through all of that period. It is a sad story. SM (01:50:30): You had mentioned in, when I was talking to you at Princeton about Dr. King had another wife, something of that effect. DG (01:50:42): Oh yeah. We have always used... I mean, there is someone whom we have never, who is still alive and we have never publicly named who is the most significant person in his personal life from (19)63 forward. I mean, that is in Bearing the Cross without a name attached. That lady has got to be, let me think. Well into her seventies now. SM (01:51:15): Was she the type of person that influenced him politically? In his- DG (01:51:20): No, I do not say political influence, no, but I think he draws more emotional sustenance and support from that relationship than from anything else. SM (01:51:37): That whole J Edgar Hoover... Would you think that Bobby Kennedy really regretted that in the end? DG (01:51:49): I think he regretted going along with the Bureau on wiretapping King himself as distinct from wiretapping Stan Levison and Clarence Jones. That would be my... If we were able to know where Bobby's mind was at on that as of early June (19)68, that is my strong instinct as to what he would say. SM (01:52:22): What do you think these files say? I have read that the three thickest files of any American in the FBI is Dr. King, Eleanor Roosevelt- DG (01:52:39): Oh, that is crap. SM (01:52:40): ... And John Lennon. DG (01:52:40): No. SM (01:52:49): No? DG (01:52:50): No, the John Lennon thing is a complete Looney Tunes trip. No, I mean the largest files the Bureau would be on Communist party functionaries that most people have never heard of. And the FBI file on say Elijah Mohamed would be 65 times larger than anything they have on Mrs. Roosevelt, never mind John Lennon. The Lennon thing is the result of one installer with a sort of creative omelet. And even Doc's file, I mean the main... The 1066, 70 file on Doc is large, but it is my now rusty recollection, though no one has ever gotten the file on Elijah, is that Elijah's would be significantly larger. SM (01:53:48): One of the things that in our conference on Bayard Rustin that we learned... Well, we knew that he influenced a lot of young people, but somebody at the conference had documented that he had influenced almost 2,500 people to go into public services in some capacity. DG (01:54:06): Well, it depends. That would depend on how one defines the term influence. SM (01:54:12): Yeah. And of course, a lot of them were at the conference and some of... Quite a few of them were working in the Clinton administration at the time. But did Dr. King have the same kind of influence on young people to follow in his- DG (01:54:28): I think that is difficult to measure because it is... Does one mean one on one-on-one relationships as opposed to people that see something on TV or on film or read something? In a one-on-one sense, it would be very hard to add up significant numbers. SM (01:55:01): We are looking at the boomer generation, of course there were quite a few presidents from Truman right now to Obama. But when you look at the following presidents, just a brief comment on these few, where would you place them in the area of civil rights? In other words, they were really cared about this issue. It was not just being pragmatic to do it or something. John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, and Jimmy Carter. DG (01:55:35): JFK changes very measurably for the better in May, June of (19)63. It is a great step forward for him. LBJ cares a great deal about it, clearly, from November of (19)63 forward, though he becomes very despondent, depressed that Black America in the (19)67, (19)68 context does not appreciate him more. Nixon, I do not think ever views it as any different than interest group organizational politics in other settings. Say the civil rights movement to Nixon is another, is say, like the labor movement, another piece on the chess board. I am not sure I could say anything with regard to Jerry Ford when he is in the house. I do not think he ever focuses on it to a significant degree. Ditto for Ronald Reagan. I do not think Reagan had any personal, negative values about it. I just do not think he had ever thought about it or appreciated it very much. Carter in a way, would be the most complicated because he perhaps should have known more and done more coming from where he came from in southwest Georgia. I do not know the Carter biographical literature, but Carter probably is always more distant from it than he might have been. SM (01:57:54): How about the two Bushes? Bush one, Bush two, and of course Bill Clinton. DG (01:57:58): I do not know enough biographically about either Bush. I mean, they are sort of outside my, I have never written about them, so they are really outside my scholarly purview. SM (01:58:18): And Bill Clinton? DG (01:58:19): No, I- SM (01:58:22): He seemed to care about it. DG (01:58:23): I have not read... Some of the political theatrics, I think playing the saxophone or whatever on, what was that Gentleman's TV show? Arsenio Hall. SM (01:58:41): Yeah. DG (01:58:42): I think those sorts of political theatrics can be taken way too seriously or way too importantly by people. SM (01:58:50): And of course, the last two you have written about Dwight Eisenhower and Harry Truman. DG (01:58:55): Yeah, Eisenhower is a huge disappointment, probably is the one person in the entire panoply of presidents who evidence suggests, did hold discriminatory views. Truman, on the other hand, is a quite pleasant surprise given where he comes from in terms of very modest roots. SM (01:59:20): He integrated the military, did not he? DG (01:59:27): Yeah. Well, I think that is a more complicated story. SM (01:59:28): Yes, I know. Pressures, yeah. DG (01:59:31): Are we about there? SM (01:59:32): We got a couple more questions, a couple more here. Bayard Rustin's. Would you say that Bayard Rustin's most influential person in his life was A. Philip Randolph and that Dr. Mays was the most important influence in Dr. King's life? DG (01:59:49): I think that is correct for Bayard. It is either Mr. Randolph or AJ Musky, though Musky is a complicated, and in some ways unhappy... Ends unhappily, but I would defer to John De Emilio on that. On Doc, with regard to Benny Mays, no. No, absolutely not the most important. Hard to say. I mean, the answer is probably Daddy King in that sense. Yeah. Daddy King is definitely my answer there. SM (02:00:37): This is a question that we asked Senator Edmond Musky, when I took students to Washington in 19... I do not think I asked this question, did I? The question on healing? It is a question that the students came up with when we went down in DC in (19)95, and the question was this. Due to the divisions that were so intense during the 1960s, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing from the massive divisions that tore the nation apart at the time? Students that came up with a question- DG (02:01:17): No. I mean, I do not... I would critique or dismiss the question because I think the people that really suffered the divisions, as you rightly touched on somewhat earlier, are people who are pre (19)46. SM (02:01:37): Yeah. Because Senator Musky, his response was that, "We have not healed since the Civil War in the issue of race." DG (02:01:43): No, I think that varies a lot by local and class and neighborhood. I mean, simple generalizations do not work on that. I mean, whenever I am in a place like this, Chicago, there are so many complexities. I turn away from all-inclusive generalizations on that. SM (02:02:16): Two more questions and then we are done. DG (02:02:18): Sure. Okay. SM (02:02:18): One question on Roe v. Wade, which is, you have written a whole book on that? DG (02:02:22): Right. SM (02:02:22): And how important is this decision? Because there is this constant behind the scenes in Congress that we are going to change this, we are going to reverse the decision- DG (02:02:33): No, Roe will never be reversed in name. No. Roe has been a crucial landmark in acknowledging women's equality. This is a culture that is now much more child conscious than was American society in 1973. And I think that really the greater appreciation, the greater social cultural appreciation of children as opposed to 35, 40 years ago, is why overall American opinion is so much more ambivalent about abortion now than in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. SM (02:03:43): Now, my question is, where do we stand today in the area of civil rights? In women's rights and all those rights movements that were so important in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? They still exist, but [crosstalk] DG (02:52:20): Yep. I mean three things, Barack Obama's election as president, irrespective of whether he ends up as a one-term president, will undeniably always be remembered as one of the landmark events in American history since the Civil War, much more important than the election of John Kennedy or Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush. Second, women have a degree of equality and equal participation in public life and the professions now that almost no one would have imagined in 1960 or 1965. And then lastly, the greatest change in America in my lifetime, I think without a doubt, the greatest change in America in the lifetime of all of us who are presently adults, is the almost complete acceptance of gay people as equal participants in American society and public life. Look at what Bayard went through. SM (02:53:50): Right. DG (02:53:51): Even as of 1970, it was almost impossible to be a gay person in public without being physically victimized. I mean, that is the greatest change, the best change that has happened during the lifetime of the boomer generation. SM (02:54:16): Would you say that the lasting legacy of the boomer generation may be the rights movement? Because Mario Savio talked about- DG (02:54:23): No, I would not. No, I would not want to... I mean, we would have to break down how much of the credit for what is happened, say with gay rights, goes to people who predate (19)46 or postdate to (19)64. SM (02:54:39): Mm-hmm. Is there a lasting legacy that you would say if you were a historian? DG (02:54:46): No, I have not thought about it in the way you have because I do not think about the generational category or the generational construct. SM (02:54:52): Right. Any other thoughts? DG (02:54:54): Nope. I think we are there. SM (02:54:56): Well, I want to thank you very much for not only greeting me at Princeton, which was an honor to meet you, and- DG (02:55:02): [inaudible]. SM (02:55:02): Meeting me at Princeton, which was an honor to meet you, and- DG (02:55:02): Totally. It was great. I very much enjoyed our conversation there. It was really great. SM (02:55:05): Yeah, and I will... Let us stay in touch, and I will keep you updated on my project. DG (02:55:09): Okay. Please do. SM (02:55:10): And continued success in your working on that book on President Obama. DG (02:55:15): Thank you very much. SM (02:55:15): Have a great day. DG (02:55:15): Okay, bye. SM (02:55:17): Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 3 microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. David Garrow Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Garrow, David J., 1953- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Historians; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers;University of Pittsburgh. School of Law; Garrow, David J., 1953--Interviews Description An account of the resource Born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, Dr. David Garrow is a historian, educator, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a Professor of Law &amp; History, and Distinguished Faculty Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He was the senior advisor for the TV show <em>Eyes on The Prize</em> and a senior research fellow at Homerton College in Cambridge, M.A. He is a regular contributor to the <em>Washington Post</em>, <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>The American Prospect</em>. Garrow graduated magna cum laude from Wesleyan University and then received his Ph.D. from Duke University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.191a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.191b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.191c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 126:59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/16652ff6f0e106a923f63c6353908aca.pdf 0d9e5c9c540754fea35d6e28ab627185 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON V N I  V E R S I I Y T X   S TAT E   U N I V E R S I T Y   O F   N E W  Y O R K wide [4 D E P A R T M E N T SONGS FROM CZECHOSLOVAKIA Mar y Burgess, soprano Timothy LeFebvre, baritone Timothy Cheek, piano ll Sunday, November 21, 2010 3 p.m. Anderson Center Chamber Hall �ABOUT THE PERFORMERS PROGRAM From “Patero dvozjpévu (Five duets),” Op. 13.......Karel Bendl (1838–1897) S n e b e  s e  s n a s i  andélé  Na nebi mésic s hvézdami Pisné milostné (Love Songs), Op. 83 ..............Antonin Dvoiak 1.  O, nasi Iasce nekvete to vytouzené Stésti  2.  V tak mnohém srdci mrtvo jest 3.  Kol domu se ted’ potacim 4. Ja vim, i e v  sladké nadéji 5.  Nad krajem védovi Iehky spanek 6. Zde v Iese u potoka 7.  V té sladké moci oéi tvych 8.  O, duse draha jedinka (1841­1904) + { a  INTERMISSION  cz (Rusalka’s “Song to the Moon") l l F From “Certové Sténa (The Devil’s Wall)". .....Bedfich Smetana (1824­1884) Jen jedina mé Zeny krasna tvar tak dojala  From “Rusalka’: ...... Mésicku na nebi hlubokém — Timothy LeFebvre — l { ...Antonin Dvorak (1841­1904) Vecerni pisné (Evening Songs)........................Antonin Dvoiak 1.  Kydz jsem se dival do nebe 2.  Vy mali, drobni ptackové 3.  Jsem jako lipa kosata 4. Vy vsichni, kdo jste stisnéni 5.  Ten ptacek, ten se nazpiva From “Moravské dvojzpévy (Moravian duets)”, Op. 32 .Dvoiak A ja ti uplynu V dobrym sme se sesli Slavikovsky polecko maly Holub na javore The audience i s  invited t o  m eet and greet the performers after the concert in the President’s Room of the Anderson Center. Nationally  acclaimed  baritone  Timothy  LeFebvre  has  wide­ranging experience from the operatic stage to the concert hall.  2009–2010 ap­ pearances  include  Faure’s  Requiem  with  Syracuse  Symphony, Mendelssohn’s Elijah with Hamilton College, a solo recital at Hamilton College,  Beethoven’s  Ninth  Symphony  with  the  Orchestra  of the Southern Finger Lakes and Vaughan­Williams’ Dona nobis pacem with the  Binghamton Downtown  Singers. His  2008–2009  appearances  in­ cluded the title role in Rigoletto with Tri­Cities Opera, Messiah with Jacksonville Symphony, Ping in Turandot with Jacksonville Symphony, the  Brahms  Requiem  with  the  Binghamton  Philharmonic,  Vaughan­ Williams’  Five  Mystical  Songs  and  Liszt’s  Christus  with  the  New Dominion Chorale in Washington, DC, Purcell’s Dido and Aeneas and Mozart’s Solemn Vesper Mass with the Berkshire Choral Festival. In the 2007–2008 season, LeFebvre made his debut with Opera Delaware, and had  return  engagements  with  Berkshire  Choral  Festival,  Jacksonville Symphony, Chattanooga Symphony and Opera, and Cornell University. Mr. LeFebvre has appeared in concert with the Jacksonville Symphony, Pensacola  Symphony,  West  Virginia  Symphony  Orchestra,  Vermont Symphony, Minnesota Symphony, Syracuse Symphony, American Sym­ phony Orchestra, Pittsburgh Symphony, Spokane Symphony, Bingham­ ton Philharmonic, Rochester Bach Festival, Berkshire Choral Festival, New  Dominion  Chorale,  Williamsport  Symphony,  Syracuse  Chamber Music Society, the Skaneateles Festival and the Marlboro Music Festival. He has also appeared in concert at New York’s Carnegie Hall and Alice Tully Hall. His operatic experience includes leading roles with Central City Opera, Tri­Cities Opera, Sarasota Opera, Chattanooga Symphony and Opera, Syracuse Opera, Indianapolis Opera, Opera Delaware, and Opera Theater of Pittsburgh. Mr. LeFebvre is a winner of the New York Liederkranz Vocal Compe­ tition, and other awards include the Richard F.  Gold Career Grant, an Opera  Fellowship  at  Binghamton  University  and  Regional  Finalist  in several Metropolitan Opera Competitions. Mr. LeFebvre is a graduate of Carnegie  Mellon University and Binghamton University.  After twelve years  of  teaching  at  Binghamton  University,  Tim  is  now  Associate Professor  of  Singing  at  Oberlin  Conservatory  of  Music.  Future performances include Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony with Williamsport Symphony. �— Mary Burgess — — Timothy Cheek — Mary Burgess was accepted by the prestigious Curtis Institute of Music, where all students are on scholarship, at the age of seventeen. She studied there for five years with Mme. Eufemia Giannini Gregory, and made her debut with New York City Opera while still an undergraduate at Curtis. Early in her career she spent numerous summers in Vermont as a participant in the Marlboro Music Festival, and then joined the Marlboro College music faculty, working with Blanche Moyse, revered Bach con­ ductor and violinist. Since 1984 Prof. Burgess has been a member of the music faculty at The State University of New York at Binghamton, where she is Associate Professor of Voice and coordinator of vocal programs. She is often called upon to adjudicate vocal competitions and to serve as consultant and reviewer of books or manuscripts on voice pedagogy. She has recorded for Columbia Masterworks, CRI, Sony Classical and Telarc, and her performances of Britten’s Les Illuminations and Mahler Symphony No. 2 with the Omaha Symphony were filmed for broadcast by Nebraska ETV. Burgess is a native of South Carolina. Pianist and vocal coach Timothy Cheek is well known for his work in Czech vocal music. His books Singing in Czech: A Guide to Czech Lyric Diction and Vocal Repertoire, with a foreword by Sir Charles Mackerras; a series on Janacek’s opera Iibretti; and his newly published book on Smetana’s Prodana nevésta / The Bartered Bride are recognized inter­ nationally as authoritative resources for singing in Czech. He has been a 4 Burgess‘ European operatic debut was at the Holland Festival, in the title role of Cavalli’s Erismena. She repeated this role at the Spoleto Festival in Italy, at the Theatre Royale de la Monnaie in Brussels, at the Brooklyn Academy  of Music,  and  again  in  Amsterdam  at  Netherlands  Opera during their regular season. She was  then engaged  for several con­ secutive seasons in leading roles at Dublin Grand Opera in Ireland. In the U.S. she has performed at New York City Opera, Santa Fe Opera, New Orleans Opera, Washington Opera, Nevada Opera, and many other regional companies including Tri Cities Opera. Her repertory of thirty roles in five languages ranges from Monteverdi and Cavalli to Britten and Virgil Thomson, including seven which she has performed in Binghamton with Tri­Cities Opera: Madama Butterfly, LaTraviata, Tosca, Marguerite in Faust, The Merry Widow, Norma, and most recently, Suor Angelica. Burgess has appeared as soloist with over two dozen U.S. orchestras, including the Boston Symphony (with Seiji Ozawa), Cleveland Orchestra (Lorin Maazel , Eduardo Mata), Chicago Symphony (Sir Simon Rattle), and Cincinnati Symphony (Klaus Tennstedt, James Conlon). She has been a frequent guest at such well known festivals as Ravinia, Aspen, Blossom, Casals, Chautauqua, Marlboro, and the Cincinnati May Fes­ tival, performing over the years a concert repertory of over 45 works with orchestra. She has appeared often at the Monadnock Music Festival with James Bolle and the New Hampshire Symphony both in opera and in concert repertory, making an acclaimed debut in the role of Susan B. Anthony in Virgil Thomson‘s The Mother of Us All honoring the centenary of his birth. Returning to the Monadnock  Festival for  a gala  concert performance of La Traviata, her Violetta prompted the Boston Herald to comment: “...she negotiated “Sempre Libera” with warmth and specificity of expression. She also produced beautiful, floaty pianissimos in the aria. More  importantly,  she  had  a  minutely  detailed  conception  of  the character and the role that informed her singing. It was a revelation to watch her.” especially  instrumental  in  championing  the  works  of  Czech  female composer  Vitézslava  Kapralova  (1915–40).  In order  to  promote  this extraordinary composer, Dr. Cheek has presented lectures and recitals throughout  North  America  and  Europe;  performed  in  several  world premieres of her songs; recorded the complete songs of Kapralova with soprano Dana Buresova on a Supraphon CD, nominated for the best recording of 2003 by the Czech journal Harmonie; and edited a critical edition of the songs for the Czech publisher Amos Editio in 2006. He is on the International Advisory Board of the Kapralova Society, based in Toronto. In  2009  the  Czech  song cycle Apple  Train  by the  renowned  Czech composer  Sylvie  Bodorova  was  written  for  Timothy  Cheek,  soprano Laurie Lashbrook, and dancer Bohuslava Jelinkova. They premiered the new work in Sydney, Australia this past summer. 1 After completing an opera internship at the National Theatre in Prague under the great Janacek conductor Bohumil Gregor in 1995, Cheek went on to receive several prestigious grants from the International Research and Exchanges Board in Washington, DC for hands­on research in the Czech Republic. He has coached, performed, and taught masterclasses on  Czech  vocal  repertoire  at  summer  festivals,  music  schools,  and conferences in the United States, Australia, Canada, Czech Republic, Israel, Slovakia, Italy, and South Africa. Since 1994 he has been on the faculty of the University of Michigan, where he instituted a new course for singers and pianists, “Czech Vocal Literature.” His duties at the univer­ sity include teaching diction classes, serving as music director of Opera Workshop, and  coaching opera  productions. He is also an  Associate Faculty  member  of  the  university’s  Center  for  Russian  and  East European Studies. His education includes a doctorate in collaborative piano and chamber music from the University of Michigan, degrees in piano performance from the University of Texas at Austin and the Oberlin Conservatory, and a Fulbright award to study as an opera coach at the Teatro Comunale  in Florence,  Italy.  Dr.  Cheek’s  performances  as  a collaborative  pianist  have  brought  him  to  fifteen  countries  on  four continents, and have been broadcast worldwide. �Program Notes TRANSLATIONS KAREL BENDL (1838­1897) Bendl was a respected composer and teacher, and a major writer of Czech vocal works,  with more than 140  songs  and  over 300 choral pieces. A colleague of Dvorak, Bendl was chosen to replace Dvorak as teacher of composition while the master was away in America. He is overshadowed by Dvorak, who was almost his exact contemporary, and some of his works are unjustly neglected. I. Se nebe se s nasi andele (From the sky descend angels) Smetana  excelled in opera and instrumental compositions, and wrote only a handful of songs and choral works.  His comic opera “Prodana nevesta (The Bartered Bride)" was by far the most popular of his eight operas and from the 1890’s was thevonly Czech opera before Janacek’s to be regularly performed abroad. “Certova sténa (The Devil’s Wall)" is his last opera, completed in 1882. From the sky descend angels, and there is golden sleep, And each of them brings a dream of dear rejoicing. Wherever they stop, there they know nice things; They know how it is in heaven, And they will reveal it through a dream. Suddenly the eyelids drop, Oh sweet, sweet power of sleep! Your image I see before me, Beloved dear one, good night! ANTONIN DVORAK (1841­1904) Na nebi mésic s hvézdami (In the sky with moon and stars) BEDRICH SMETANA (1824­1884) Dvorak wrote more than one hundred songs for voice and piano — one in 1901, and the rest between 1865 and 1895. Although he was at his best in instrumental writing, it is interesting to note that his first published work was a song; his first work to be publicly performed was a song; the work that captured Brahms’ attention and led to international recognition was the Moravian Duets, Op. 32; and his youthful attempt at songwriting, Cypresses, served as a fountain of inspiration for other musical works throughout his life. Veéemi Pisné (Evening Songs), Op. 31, is a beautiful and varied set of five songs for middle voice, written probably in 1876, revised in 1882, and published in 1883. Pisné Milostné (Love Songs), Op. 83, is a beautiful set of eight songs for high voice, written in 1888 as revisions of the 1865 Cypresses collection. Compare piano figurations in song No. 7, “V té sladké moci oéi tvych”  (“In the sweet power of your eyes”), to similar measures in the slow movement of Dvorak’s Piano Quintet in A major, Op. 81. The quintet was written a year before the songs, but the songs have their inspiration and origin from 1865. — Notes by Timothy Cheek Excerpted from his book “Singing in Czech: A Guide to Czech Lyric Diction and Vocal Repertoire” (Scarecrow Press 2001) In the sky, the moon with stars, And in the forest full of small sounds, And on that vast world, as if God were spreading love, A different voice of these young little leaves changes into sweet discourse, As if the whole world were in delight, dissolving into kisses. And yet, I know that in solitude many hearts suffer, and that many youthful faces drown in bitter tears. In the sky, the moon with stars, And in the forest full of small sounds, And on that vast world, as if God were spreading love. II. Love Songs, Op.83 1.  Oh, that longed for happiness does not blossom in our love: And if it were to blossom, and if it were to blossom, it will not for long, for long. Why would a tear steal into passionate kisses? Why would she, in her full love, embrace me anxiously? Oh, bitter is that parting where hope does not beckon: for the heart feels in its trembling that soon, ah, soon it will miserably perish. 2. In so many a heart is death, like in dark desolation, in it certainly there is a place only for pain and for suffering. Here deceptions of passionate love enter in that heart, and the heart yearning with weeping, is aware that it loves. And in that sweet illusion once again in paradise that dead heart changes and sings, sings an old myth, sings an old myth! 3.  Now I am staggering outside the house where you used to live, and from the wounds of love I bleed, of sweet, false love! And with sad eyes I look on to see if you are taking a step toward me: and facing you, I open my arms, but I feel a tear in my eye. Oh, where are you, dear, where are you today, why won’t you come to me? Why don’t ! have in my heart bliss and rejoicing; won’t I see you ever again? �4. I know that in sweet hope I may yet love you; and that therefore you want even more ardently to cultivate my love. And yet, when I behold your eyes on this blissful night, and I learn how the bliss of love from them alights so much onto me: now my eyes are with tears, now they are suddenly dry, for in our happiness evil fate gazes behind us, for in our happiness evil fate gazes behind us. 5. Over the countryside reigns a light sleep, the clear May night has spread itself out; a timid breeze steals itself into the leaves, the strength of peace has bent down from heaven. The flowers slumbered, through the brook a choir of mysterious melodies is murmuring more softly. Nature in delight blissfully muses, everywhere the conflict of restless elements has become silent. The stars have gathered together as lights of hope, the earth is turning into a heavenly sphere. My heart, in which bliss once blossomed, my heart is dragged only by the rush of pain, my heart is dragged by the rush of pain! 6.  Here in the forest at the brook I am all alone; and deep in thought I stare at the waves in the brook. Now I see an old stone, over which the waves swell; the stone, the stone rises and falls without rest under the wave. And the current bears down on it until the rock topples over. When will the wave of life carry me away from the world, when, ah, will the wave of life carry me away? 7. In the sweet power of your eyes how gladly, how gladly I would perish. if only the laughter of your beautiful lips did not beckon me to life. However, I will choose this sweet death right away with this love, with this love in my breast: if only your smiling lips awaken me to life, if your smiling lips awaken me to life, awaken me. 8. Oh, dear soul, one­and­only, you who live ever in my heart: my thought circles round you, though evil fate divides us. Oh, if only I were a singing swan, I would fly to you; and in my last gasp, I would sing out my heart to you in fainting, ah, in my last gasp. Ill. From Certova Sténa The Devil’s Wall Act I: Volk Vitkovic, a head of the powerful Czech Rozmberk family in the mid­30” century, was rejected in his youth by his beloved, and he has remained single and without an heir. News comes that this love from his distant past has died. Only one woman’s beautiful face moved me so much That I dreamed a myth of love; Oh, I remember how the brilliance of those eyes lit up for me the living stars, And by the shining beauty of her dawn sky, The brilliance penetrated into my breast, making paradise bloom there! That was a time of hope, that beautiful May of youth! And I had hoped to be a lover; Oh, woman, bewitching star, why did you remain cold toward me? And another, your man’s heart, he embraced you in his arms, He stole you from me, And only the fire of dejected yearning remained for me. I fled from myself, and wherever I entered There blazed your image, and memory, and regret. And the sweet brilliance never more flashed before me, And no other heart appeared before me, However, up till now I remember only the brilliance of those eyes, And up till now only one woman’s beautiful face moves me so much That I believe in the myth of love, that I believe in the myth of love! IV. Rusalka’s “Song t o  the Moon” Oh, moon in the deep heavens, your light sees far away, around the wide world you wander, you look into the dwellings of people, around the wide world you wander, you look into the dwellings of people. Oh, moon, stand still for a while, tell me, where is my beloved, oh, moon, stand still for a while, tell me, tell, where is m y b  eloved? Tell him, oh silvery moon, that my arms embrace him, so that he, at  least for a little while, might remember me in his dreams, so that he, at least for a little while, might remember me in his dreams. Give him light far away, give him light, tell him, tell, who waits here for him; give him light far away, give him light, tell him, tell, who waits here for him! Oh, if his human soul dreams of me, let this remembrance awaken him! Oh, moon, do not disappear, do not disappear, Oh, moon, do not disappear! V.  Vecerni pisné, Op. 31 Evening Songs 1. Kdyz jsem se dival do nebe When I looked to the sky Through the gold little stars, It seemed to me that you are a saint and that I am a holy angel, And that I am a holy angel. I took the harp to my arms And sang songs to you, so that the songs of the saints fell silent And each one gazed on us, and each one gazed on us. But God the Father alone stopped for awhile in His creative plans, And it seems to me, and it seems to me, That a teary diamond flowed down His cheek. �2. Vy mali, drobni ptackové You small, tiny little birds, you song­dreamy sleepers, I wonder which of you will remember that I am dying in tears, I wonder which of you will remember that I am dying in tears? Dear little moon, stay in the sky so I may take delight in you; My love’s ardor has cooled down, we are suited to one another, My love’s ardor has cooled down, we are suited to one another. The last flame is falling asleep, for me there remain only words: And yet I would fan it all again, I would be unhappy once more, And yet I would fan it all again, I would be unhappy once more. 3.  Jsem jako lipa kosata I am like a full linden tree when dressing for a special occasion: You beautiful May rose, come here to my cool shade, You beautiful May rose, come here to my cool shade. Here each leaf breathes fragrance, here a swarm of little bees buzzes, In the evening little birds fly here — those thoughts are mine, In the evening little birds fly here — those thoughts are mine. They are flying far away, like children leaving home: However, if you sit next to me, No more will they fly away, no more will they fly away. 4.  Vy vssichni, kdo jste stisnéni All you who are downcast, come right now, come to me, Here take away from your shoulders the burden of hardship, and gently forget. I have founded here a realm of love, where friend is entwined with friend, And for all who have it in their hearts, it flows in fair songs. Here the envious one doesn’t know a rival, here speech is like a sweet song, Here, the lion is a tame lamb, and birds of prey young doves. Here there are remedies for all hardships, here the heart forever grows young, Here the rose blossom doesn’t lose freshness, Here the rose blossom doesn‘t lose freshness, and there is no hostility. 5.  Ten ptacek, ten se nazpiva That little bird, it sings so much, as if it were song incarnate; But whoever has love in his heart, don’t be astonished that he sings, Don’t be astonished that he sings! And the little bird, the one that knows how to speak like that from the heart and to the heart, (don‘t be astonished) that a man would barely keep from crying, that a man would barely keep from crying. When he will understand with his heart. But often it seems to me that I am his friend in sorrows, For even these songs of mine are only gentle laments. VI. Moravian Duets, Op. 32 A ja t i  u plynu And will I run away from you on the dear Danube! And I have at home a fishing pole that I’ll use to catch some little fish. And I’ll make myself into a wild pigeon, and I’ll fly under the high sky. And I have at home some crows that will grab for me, that will grab for me some pigeons! And I’ll make myself into a big crow, and I’ll fly to you on the Hungarian side. And I have at home a crossbow that will shoot at all the crows’ souls. And I will make myself into the little stars in the sky, and I’ll shine for the people on earth. And there are with us at home some astronomers that count the little stars in the sky. And anyway, you will be mine, or the Lord God will give you to me! V dobrym sme se sesli As friends we met, as friends we will part, and if, my sweetheart, mine, we will forget about each other? I will think about you, not only during the year, I will, my sweetheart, I will with each step, I will think about you with each, with each step. Slavikovsky poleéko maly She: The little Slavikovsky field — we won’t, sweetheart, get married, we won’t, we won’t, that’s not possible, not even that field, my sweetheart, your mother won’t give us. He: What is it to us what our mothers want, our mothers won’t rule over us. Only you, my girl, only you want me, just give me your little hand for good night. Holub na javore A little dove flew on the field to fill up its craw. When he had filled his little craw, he sat under the maple tree. Under the maple tree my dear is embroidering a green kerchief. She’s embroidering on it a little wreath, for her sweetheart left her. She’s embroidering on it the blossom from a rose, for all the whole world has left her. All translations by Timothy Cheek �Binghamton University Music D epartment’s U PC O M I N G  E V E N T S Tuesday, November 23 — Percussion Ensemble — 8 p.m. — Anderson Center Chamber Hall — free Wednesday, December 1 — Lecture/Recital with Jieun Jang, piano — 8 p.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — free Thursday, December 2 — Holiday Mid­Day Concert — 1:20 p.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — free Thursday, December 2 — Harpur Chora le & Women’s Chorus — 8 p.m. — Trinity Memorial Church, Binghamton — free Friday, December 3 — Flute Studio a nd Flute Chamber Concert — 10:30 a.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — free Friday, December 3 — Composer’s Concert (students o f  Christopher Loy) — 8 p.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — free Saturday, December 4 — University Sy mphony Orchestra: America’s Inner Life — 3 p.m. — Osterhout Concert Theater — $10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students (Group rate $8 per person) Sunday, December 5 — Wind  Symphony: Gathering o f  Angels — 3 p.m. — Anderson Center Chamber Hall — free Sunday, December 5 — Violin Recital: Janey Choi, violin, Michael Salmirs, piano and guest artist Rebecca Ansel, violin — 7:30 p.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — $10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; $2 students Thursday, December 9 — Jazz Mid­Day Concert with guest artist — 1:20 p.m. — Osterhout Concert Theater — free (Co­sponsored by the Binghamton University Music Department and the Harpur Jazz Project) Thursday, December 9 — Harpur Jazz Ensemble Concert with guest artist — 8 p.m. — Osterhout Concert Theater — $10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students (Co­sponsored by the Binghamton University Music Department and the Harpur Jazz Project) For ticket information, p/ease call the Anderson Center Box O ffice a t 777­ARTS. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 55:09:00 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146102">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146102</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Songs from Czechoslovakia, November 21, 2010 Recital Tape 2010-11-21 Description An account of the resource Works by Bendl, Dvořák, Smetana. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource LeFebvre, Timothy Cheek, Timothy Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65a958ce18c1b7be6f8c4b456fd6817c.jpg 4d70d54f3f273a0abb41cebe442ed3d6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b389af43142f7802f2a35d8796c9a7c3.mp3 4c7ebeb9b8ea53921c07ee4f960ecc6d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marvin N. Olasky Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Marvin Olasky is an editor, an author of more than 20 books and a distinguished chair in Journalism and Public Policy at Patrick Henry College. He received his Bachelor's degree in American Studies from Yale University and his Ph.D. in American Culture from the University of Michigan. Olasky let his position of provost of the King's College to focus on his position of editor-in-chief of WORLD Magazine. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5039,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Dr. Marvin Olasky is an editor, an author of more than 20 books and a distinguished chair in Journalism and Public Policy at Patrick Henry College. He received his Bachelor's degree in American Studies from Yale University and his Ph.D. in American Culture from the University of Michigan. Olasky left his position of provost of the King's College to focus on his position of editor-in-chief of <em>WORLD Magazine</em>. </span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 146:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; VIetnam War; John F Kennedy; Ronald Reagan; NAACP; Students \\nfor Democratic Society; Black Panthers; Vietnam Veterans; Free speech movement; Activism; Kent State&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; VIetnam War; John F Kennedy; Ronald Reagan; NAACP; Students \nfor Democratic Society; Black Panthers; Vietnam Veterans; Free speech movement; Activism; Kent State</span> Subject LCSH Editors; Authors, American; College teachers; Patrick Henry College (Purcellville, Va.); Olasky, Marvin N.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Marvin Olasky Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 23 November 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. MO (00:00:08): Yeah. A company is putting out his first in comic book perform, and then they will all be accumulated next spring. So. SM (00:00:17): Okay. MO (00:00:17): Some kind of fun writing fiction. SM (00:00:20): My first question is how did you become who you are? You are a fry edge boomer, which is those boomers born in those first 10 years, between (19)46 and (19)56. So how did you become who you are? And secondly, when you look at who you are, you went to Yale and graduated in (19)71, and then you went to Michigan and got a PhD there in American Studies. So what were your experiences like at those two universities, the college environment? MO (00:00:52): Well, first I became who I am because my parents at a certain time in 1946 decided to get married, and they had a son in 1947, and they had a second son in 1950. Mainly me, I owe it all to them. Those are a lot of questions you have asked. Kind of a multiple warhead question. Which one do you want me to start with? SM (00:01:18): I would start with that first one, how you became who you are first and the influences you had in your very early life with your parents and so forth. MO (00:01:36): Influences in very early life. Well, there is a lot there too. Growing up in the (19)50s, I think there was a certain amount of fear in the air concerning the possibility of nuclear warfare. Growing up as a kid in suburban Boston, there were lots of cultural influences. I think my grandparents were real pioneers. They managed to make their way out of the Russian Empire and get all the way to Massachusetts, usually by the way of Germany, in one case by London and Ellis Island and then Boston. So they had a pioneering spirit, and I think they wanted to assure as best they could, that their children would not have the same difficulties that they did. And so there was a certain protectiveness on the part of the grandparents towards their kids. That is my parent. On my father's side, my grandfather Lewis, who in my family would call Lewis the pioneer with my kids, I call them, that was a devout Jew. He would be praying a lot and my father had the forms, but not the belief. He was a very smart kid who graduated at the top of his Marden high school class in 1936, and he was accepted to Harvard at a time when I think there was a quota on Jewish student. He learned in the 1930s, he majored in anthropology. He learned that various tribes all made up their own creation myths and their concepts of God. He learned that there was no reason beyond tribal identity to choose one over another. He came to believe in religious evolution with cultures over time, moving from primitive belief to rationalistic understandings. So he began to think that the most important part of Judaism was not theology. There was no reason to think that writings from so long ago were grinding on us. Writing emphasized culture, which reflected the history of the people. And this actually is very common in the 1930s, whether in a very painful form like the Nazis or the fascist Italy. They emphasized, here is the genius of our particular tribe. And that was a murderous form. My father had a benevolent form of the same thing. Namely, there are tribes. The Judaism is a tribe, here are particular customs to follow, but there were no particular beliefs there. And then on my mother's side, her parents, as far as I know, were not particularly religious. They were entrepreneurs. Her father went to the streets of Boston with a horse and wagon, collect and used mattresses and then stuffing them. And that over time became a furniture store that made him fairly prosperous, but there was no particular belief there. And so, I think my older brother and myself in the 1950s were raised with a certain set of rituals, but no real belief behind them. And both of us in time noticed that. And that led me, I think probably with my brother's urging in some ways, or I think he was three years older or so, he came to these ideas. I think I started reading some books like Sigmund Freud, the Future of Illusion. This is about when I am 14 years old, or HG Wells book, the history of the world. And I became a pretty straightforward materialist. And then in my teenage play, an atheist. So that came out of, I think, living in an atmosphere in the 1950s and the early 1960s when there was a certain set of rituals, but there really was not belief, at least in my parents. There was a fearful time in certain ways. Again, nuclear warfare as a prospect. And the question was, well, what is there really? And if the answer was there is not really anything there, then that led into a search for alternative. SM (00:08:27): Was McCarthyism part of this too? This fear? MO (00:08:30): What? SM (00:08:31): Was McCarthy is not part of this fear? MO (00:08:34): No, not that I ever recognized, no. My parents were not particularly active, politically active. That was just a world that was really foreign to me. And then I am just thinking that there was a thing of just the other influences. There was a series of books, about hundred, over a hundred non-fiction books published by Random House in the 1950s and the 1960s called Landmark Books. SM (00:09:29): Oh, yeah. I had a lot of them. MO (00:09:32): And so I just read and read and read. This probably started when I was in probably the fifth grade, sixth grade. I read a lot of these about Christopher Columbus and Captain John Smith and Paul Revere and the Minuteman and Lee and Grant Appomattox. And I think the story of my grandparents pioneering, and I never knew very much about it, mean they spoke Yiddish, I did not. There was not a whole lot of communication, but I had a sense that they were particularly Lewis the Pioneer, a heroic person leaving his home. And somehow, he was actually drafted into the Russian Army in just about, I think 1912 or so, perhaps 1910. He deserted and somehow made his way across Russia, across Europe, and eventually came to the United States. And so, I did not know much about that, but I had the sense of being a pioneer. And so I basically was learning American history from the Landmark books, and I really bonded with it. So I think there was a certain love of America, or Love of the West, or love of pioneering. And then there were, I think this [inaudible], some of the television shows of the time. I was looking back recently and trying to remember what I was watching, and there were two that had an influence on me. I think The Rifleman was a popular show in the late (19)50s. And the Lucas McCain, who was the character in the show, was really, I mean, he got into gun sites, but I suppose was some sort of compassionate and conservative also. He gave ex-con an job on his ranch. I was looking back recently at some of the episode, I mean just this plot descriptions, there was one of his old enemies who had changed to become a doctor. He could not believe it at first, but then this Palmer adversary helped him in a gunfight. So it was a Western that many of the Westerns at the time. The writers were trying to make certain political and cultural points in them. And so it was an interesting western. It was to shoot them up, but also with the idea of helping people defending the rights of immigrants. Lucas McCain helps the man from China open a laundry, helps the family from Argentina buy a ranch. And they were very well directed. The creator and initial screenwriter and director of the series with Sam Peckinpah, who went on to direct some very good Western movies in the 1960s. So anyway, I think there were television shows that had a cultural impact. And then there was another one called Have Gun Will Travel. SM (00:13:24): Paladin, yeah. MO (00:13:27): Which there was an actor, Richard Boone, who played Paladin and Paladin, again, a gun fighter who had come to the rescue of those in need. So, he was also a chess player. I grew up playing chess, and he was smart. He was a high IQ gunslinger. So, there was this idea of being a hero in some ways and fighting for those who needed help fighting for the oppressed. So I suspect that had some influence on me too, in a way. Baseball had a lot of influence to me. I was a mediocre player, mediocre is probably over exaggerating my perilous, a pretty bad player. But I became a fan of Boston Red Sox and started to follow them. And baseball is just an interesting combination of the one and the many in it has had individual community. Everyone gets a ton of that. You are also part of a team. And so stuck in some ways also that an influence on me. Maybe that is deeper down, but if you ask about some of the influences. SM (00:14:55): Yeah, those are excellent examples. Well said. You went to Yale from (19)67 to (19)71, and of course you went to Michigan too for your PhD. The first question I had here is what were your college years like at Yale? Because everybody knows there were a lot of protests there. I know that John Hersey wrote a book, I think in (19)69, A letter to the alumni, explaining what happened there. And I know that I think the Black Panthers were involved in something at that time over there. MO (00:15:27): Oh, yeah. SM (00:15:27): With Bobby Seal. Your thoughts about your college years at Yale? MO (00:15:34): Oh... SM (00:15:34): Any influence on you there. MO (00:15:37): For sure, and very strange times now. I came into Yale in my own mind, an atheist and critical of lots of things. Some of the things at Yale, I would like to say this was all intellectual in a way. But I suspect I had a full of covetousness and I went to Yale. And I entered in the fall of (19)68- so hold on just one moment, please. SM (00:16:24): Yep. MO (00:16:50): And so, I am there with my two polyester sweaters, and I met one roommate, one of my roommates had his, had brought his own dresser, just to hold all of his luxurious woolen sweaters. So there may have been some covetousness there in my part. Had another roommate who was the son of a Virginia banker, and he brought with him a great [inaudible]. Excuse me, I am just going to be heading down an elevator if I lose you for a moment. I do not think I will. But if I do, just call me right back. SM (00:17:30): Okay. MO (00:17:31): No. Cause now I am trying to walk a little. SM (00:17:35): Okay. MO (00:17:37): And he sat for hours in the corner of a living room next to a high intensity lamp. But he focused away from himself, so he was invisible, and everyone else had to squint. I just remember the interesting characters, and that probably had an influence on me. But then also the- Hold on a moment. I am on the, let me just see. I do not think this is going to work. It will be harder to hear, because I will just walk around inside. SM (00:18:26): Okay. MO (00:18:32): No, and I am not blaming the professors because again, I came already predisposed to some of these things. But what I learned in history classes is that America, also known as Amerikkka, the way it was often spelt a deeply embedded class system within which, let us say expensive sweaters or stereos, could be seen as stolen. So in a sense, my covetousness could be made broader or bigger. And instead of having to look at myself and in my own sin, I will use that word, I could say, well, I am right. And we have a class system in America, and therefore, if I am going to be on the side of the pool in the oppressed, I should be out to attack the capitalist. And those folks, Amerikkka industrial machine, theoretically manufactured deaths in Napalm's, Vietnam, the excess of the machine, threatened to turn all of us into machines. So there was all that aspect to it. Essentially, I had a hole in my soul. I needed a good preacher. But Yale provided Williams Sloan Coffin. SM (00:20:24): Oh, yes. MO (00:20:25): Who was preaching, and [inaudible] about the Vietnam War. I mean, actually went several times and listened to him. And it would have been great if I had heard some message about my own, the hole in my soul and my need to change. But instead, I could see myself as good and the system as oppressive. I took a course offered by Charlie Wright. Charlie Wright had a number one bestseller, the Greening of America. SM (00:20:58): Oh, yes. MO (00:20:59): And in that book its told, it was my generation that would solve all the nation's problems. So, it always allowed me to look at someone else as the problem, or some system as the problem. Again, I do not at all blame Yale for some of my political weirdness, but I did not get their answers that would have been useful to me. I will give you just some other, well, Charlie Rock's class, it was kind of bizarre. You could do whatever you wanted as long as it showed some dislike for America. I think I received an honors in that class for cutting out pictures from old Red Sox's yearbooks and interspersing them with comments about baseball racism. There was a required art class in the art museum, and my artistic ability was even worse than my ability in baseball. So one of my roommates that year had a black cat. So I carried the black cat and let the cat out of the back onto the museum floor explaining that I had just created a work of art, showing how the Black Panthers were freeing themselves from the bag, the container in which America society placed members of their race. And I received an honors for that effort, even though the cat ran away. SM (00:23:13): Oh my God. MO (00:23:13): And hid among some expensive canvases that prompted a frenzy search. But nevertheless, got my honors. That was just a weird time where, as long as you, this was before political correctness was a term, but as long as you wrote things like that you could do well, and this was also period, the understanding was yes, humanity in some way had a change. And so how would that happen? There was a Yale professor named Jose Delgado, who was doing experiments in electrical stimulation of the brain. So he was putting tiny sensors into monkey brains to control their behavior. And the idea as well, maybe you could do this for people. And there were lots of cults and so forth. So there was salvation through science, salvation through engineering, salvation through various eastern religions, salvation through drugs. And I, instead of embracing drugs, recent religions, I began to look for salvation through Marxism. Actually, see if I have this, oh, Che Guevara was, he died in 1967. So, I am coming to Yale in (19)68, and this was the beginning of the Che Guevara cult. And Guevara talked about how we have to make sacrifices. We may find ourselves at the edge of destruction, but we will at the end, have created a communist society or ideal. So I could see what I called sin, but not my own. And it was caused by alienation derived from the division of labor, the existence of capitalists and so forth. So yeah, I kept moving further and further and further to the left. And I started running some columns in the Yale Daily News going around New Haven and exploring things. And my answer for everything was, go left young man. So... SM (00:26:05): Did you... MO (00:26:07): ... Had a rather blinker view of the world. And again, not blaming Yale, but that is what I picked up there. And it pushed me further and faster in a direction I was probably heading otherwise. Now, why did I go all the way to communism? And others did not. Number one, their heads may have been screwed on straighter than mine was. In my own mind, the justification was, well, I am willing to be bold, and they are timid, which was very nicely self-congratulatory. There may be a little bit of truth to that, and that probably because my social antenna were not as well tuned as they should have been, I would sometimes actually read things and believe them and try to act on them rather than just dismissing that and something, well, "That is fine for those folks to do, but I am not going to do it." So this came in a sense, in my own thinking, probably there was a merger of, well, my grandparents were heroic. I mean, they set off across the ocean and they did all this, and I am going to be heroic also and do something striking and unusual. And the two, in a sense, the two political parties at Yale were liberals and radical. Conservatives were fairly non-existent. And the only ones I ever encountered were there was a party of the right, which essentially believed in wearing suits some smoking cigars. That is all I saw of them. So that did not appeal to me at all. But as far as the folks who were appealing liberalism, radicalism, and I did not think liberalism worked very well in my understanding of what I thought was my wisdom. And so I just kept becoming more and more radical and thought, "Yeah, I am being bold and courageous." So that was my justification. SM (00:28:38): When you went off to Michigan and you picked majored in American Studies, why did you pick American Studies? And was Michigan any different in your doctoral program than Yale? MO (00:28:50): I picked American Studies originally because I had some advanced placement credits from high school. I had the option of graduating from Yale in three years rather than four. And even though I look back and wonder why I was in such a hurry to leave a place with lots of libraries and time to do what you wanted to do and so forth, I was in a hurry. And American Studies was the major I could take that the requirements were such that I could take care of all that in three years. I think originally, I was thinking of majoring in history, but that would have taken four years. And I found I enjoyed it because it is a mix of history and literature and film and so forth. And I was interested in writing, and I have been a reporter for a while in Boston and out in Oregon, this is also part of my pioneer stuff. I mean, the day after I graduated from college, I started bicycle across the country and bicycle from Boston to Oregon. SM (00:30:00): Wow. MO (00:30:00): So, yeah, that was it and... MO (00:30:03): Okay. SM (00:30:03): Wow. MO (00:30:03): So yeah, that was it and then continued around the world. After working in Oregon for a while, I took a Soviet freighter across Pacific, and then Trans-Siberian Railroad and stuff like that. I was interested in traveling and seeing things and probably doing something in journalism down the road. Michigan had a program in American culture that was appealing. They offered a very good fellowship, and so I took it. Now, why Michigan? Curiously enough, I had never been there. I had just been told, cool place. A professor in the American studies program named Robert Skalar, S-K-A-L-A-R, who was a Marxist or a radical or something and would be very sympathetic. Why do not you just apply there and see if they will give you some money, so you can afford to go there? And when they did, I went. As it turned out, Skalar was on leave my first year. After my first year, my beliefs were changing. So, I was no longer interested in taking classes with Skalar, but that was the one professor I had heard of. I mean, actually I applied there while in Europe and had just heard, why not? Why not do that? I applied to a couple other places too. Michigan offered the best fellowship. And, yeah, it seemed interesting. Before I traveled across the country, I had never been west of the Hudson River except for one short plane trip to Chicago. So, I did not know anything about the Midwest. I mean, I had bicycled through it. It seemed like an interesting place. And Ann Arbor would have the reputation of a hip community, so that is why there. And again, America Studies was just accidental originally. SM (00:32:18): Was that- MO (00:32:18): To Michigan in many ways, but I am glad it worked out that way. SM (00:32:21): Was that the place where you started reading the Bible and became a Christian, or- MO (00:32:27): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the place where, yeah, I went through a big transformation. It was also the place where I met my wife with whom I have been married now for 34 and a half years. So yeah, I am very glad to have gone to Michigan SM (00:32:46): As a student of the (19)60s and the mid-(19)70s, how do boomer students differ from... You not only were, you went to school with the boomers and you have been a professor teaching the generation Xers and the millennials, and as I say here, how do the boomer students differ from generation Xers or millennial students of today? And what would be some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation of 74 million? If have any thoughts on that. MO (00:33:19): Yeah, hold yeah, hold on for just one moment, please. SM (00:33:21): Okay. MO (00:33:21): Good question. I do not know of any other generation in American history that has been so prematurely honored. In other words, when Sean Charlie Reich was wearing the greeting of America, he apparently wrote a lot of it sitting in a couple of dining halls of Yale, listening to students. And he wrote that this was the most wonderful generation as opposed to... He wrote about consciousness one, the old consciousness of small business and consciousness two was the consciousness of big organizations. And then consciousness three was going to be a new benevolent, wonderful processes that would bring peace and good times to America and the whole world. And the exemplars of consciousness three were these college students. So typically, you have had students going to college with the idea, at least in theory of learning from professors, doing lots of other things as well, but the draw was supposedly learning from professors, and it was all reversed. The world turned upside down and professors were supposed to be learning from students. So that is what this generation grew up with basically in college. And because it is so big bigger than before and after, in a sense that leadership, for better or worse for the whole culture, has remained with this generation as it has gone through the route within the body of the snake moving down. So, whatever this generation has found most interesting is what has led the culture in many ways and so it is no surprise. But right now we're seeing you saw in this past year such an attention paid to healthcare, because this is something that this generation cares most deeply about. So, there is that solid system, that self-infatuation. Being told early on, "You are the best and the brightest," and then just by the power of numbers being always the center of attention for advertisers and propaganda and others. SM (00:36:21): When did the (19)60s begin and when did it end in your opinion? And was there a watershed moment? MO (00:36:32): Yeah, probably began with the assassination of President Kennedy. Probably ended in some ways... I am shortening the decade a little bit. In some ways it may have ended with the shootings at Kent State or may have continued all the way to the end of the Vietnam War- SM (00:37:10): (19)75. MO (00:37:11): ... The impeachment of Nixon, the end of the Vietnam War in 1975. I can see either way, going from 1960 to 1970, from 1963 to 1975. And I think of the Kent State shooting because that is when it became obvious to lots of people that this was not play. Three days before there had been big demonstrations in New Haven over the trial of Black Panther leader, Bobby Seale. The Chicago Seven, Abby Hoffman, and all had come to New Haven and were poor ratings. There were probably about thousand [inaudible 00:38:11] around the country who came there. There were rumors of gun shipments being stolen. There were several thousand National Guard troops dispensed to New Haven with live ammunition. And people were walking up to the National Guard soldiers and taunting them and at night there was some rock throwing and so forth and providentially, the National Guard soldiers did not fire in response, but it could have happened. I do not think there was a sense of reality that in fact people could be dead. Three days later that changed. I mean, it is interesting that the war demonstrations fell off sharply when two things happened. I mean, number one, there was instead of men generally being draft able, there was the draft lottery. And so, two-thirds of men were safe at that point, and the draft was sprawling off at that point anyway. And then second, you had people trot dead in a demonstration. So instead of just being able to play, it was serious, and instead of your own life being on the line through the draft, suddenly lots of people were protected and it became less of an urgent matter. So, I can see that aspect of the (19)60s dying then. And then of course, the other big thing in the (19)60s is you have the civil rights movement, in many ways culminating in Martin Luther King Jr's speech at the Washington monument, I mean the Lincoln Memorial. But then morphing into something very different and instead of peace often bringing violence. So, you have the race riots in (19)65, and then big time in (19)68. So, the civil rights era that had the moral superiority of the civil rights movement with sit-ins and peaceful not violent. Yeah, that died and there was talk of, from Stokely Carmichael and others, a violent activity. This was not connected with the civil rights movement, but the riots did break out that basically ended the good spirit of things. And then you moved from a situation where African Americans were discriminated against quickly to a situation where at least in terms of university placement and so forth, and some jobs with affirmative action, they actually had benefits. And so, the good feeling that grew out among a lot of white folks of wanted to help the underdog, got dissipated. So that is why I think you could look upon 1970 or so at the end of the decade. But on the other hand, since the Vietnam War continued and there were actually a lot more Americans, and I suspect a lot more Vietnamese, dying during the first Nixon term than during Johnson's years in office, that you could say which led to a lot of education kept going. And culturally, you start to see lots of changes in music and drug use and so forth and so that might continue all the way up to 1975. SM (00:42:27): Yeah. Do you remember where you were when John Kennedy was assassinated? The exact moment that you heard? MO (00:42:34): Yeah, I was 13 and playing a board hockey game with my brother. My father came home and gave the news. I mean, this was several hours after it happened. There had not been an announcement of my school, I had walked home, had not been listening to the radio or watching television or anything. So I was a late learner. But I certainly remember that whole weekend with the television broadcast and the funeral and so forth. SM (00:43:09): In 1990, I think it was 1994, Newt Gingrich made some pretty strong comments against the (19)60s' generation when he came into power. And of course, he's a boomer himself, but I know George Will has oftentimes in his writings made some strong attacks against the generation. Of course, during the recent campaign, I know even John McCain had made some comments about Hillary Clinton, even though they're close friends because of her (19)60s and so forth. And my question is this, many people on the right have attacked the (19)60s' generation for the breakup of the American family, the drug culture, the divorce rate, the lack of respect for authority, the welfare state, which the idea of a handout society, a lot of the isms that we see today, your thoughts on the right, these are people from the right making strong attacks against the voter generation basically for most of the problems we have in our society today. MO (00:44:19): Well, yeah, I think some of those attacks are justified, but the (19)60s came after the (19)50s. It is not as if the (19)60s just grew out of nothing. There were real problems in the (19)50s. While you had a lot of people, as I mentioned at the outset, and my parents were among them, but I think this is more general, a lot of people observing certain rituals going to church, going to synagogue. I am not sure how deep the belief was or how much it affected what people did not on Saturday or Sunday, but throughout the week. So, there were real theological weaknesses. In the 19th and the early 20th century, there were great opportunities for smart and entrepreneurial women in leading a great number of volunteer associations, civil society groups, social service organizations. So there was real outlet for, say, middle class women who wanted to be executives. They were not in the business world, but they were in the social service world, which was very big because the volunteer nonprofit sector, because you did not have government doing so many of these things. And then as governments started growing in the 1930s and this kept going in the 1950s, a lot of those opportunities disappeared. So, there were a lot of bright entrepreneurial women who no longer had those opportunities, but they were not yet welcomed into the world of business or the ranks of the governmental bureaucracy and so forth and so there was a lot of frustration there. Betty Peran wrote out of frustration. So there were problems there. And you go down the line, it's not as if the 1950s were a great decade in the 1960s, a horrible decade. While you certainly see some major cultural shifts, there's a lot of continuity. Now at the same time, yeah, I certainly see my own generation as pacific, tending to be self-gratifying, self-infatuating. So yeah, if I hear negative things said about this generation, I tend to agree with them. But this was part of a long process, not just something that came out of nowhere. SM (00:47:43): The generation gap was... Did you have that in your family in any way, particularly in your Yale years, because... So then you changed, of course, when you went to grad school, but was the generation gap, which was so prevalent amongst the boomer generation between parents and kids at that time, number one, was that part of what your experience was like? And number two, a book was written in 1980 called The Wounded Generation, and in there was a panel that met, which included Jim Webb, Bobby Mueller, James Fallows, Phil Caputo. They talked about the Vietnam War and in that discussion, it came up that the stronger generation gap was between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not. So just your thoughts on the concept of the generation gap itself in the boomer generation. MO (00:48:44): No, I think as far as the second part, I think that is very true. I mean, a huge gap and probably bigger than the generation gap as such. Yeah, I do not know. Look, historically, there is always a gap of some kind, it is hard for me to measure how good this was compared to others, but certainly the gap between those who went and those who did not was very large. SM (00:49:17): How about between you and your parents when you were at Yale? MO (00:49:23): Oh, sure. But again, hard for me to measure. And if you read a book like the Education of Henry Adams, there was a gap. Just about every autobiography I have read, there is a gap of some kind. So yeah, it is just hard to measure how large this was or how significant compared to others. SM (00:49:59): One of the qualities, and I think you have already made reference to this in your commentary about being self-indulgent, but many of the young people in college camps in the (19)60s felt they were the most unique generation in ,American history when they were young because there was a kind of spirit and a belief, and it may have been naive, but a belief that they were going to be change agents for the betterment of society. That they were going to help end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace, save the environment. Some of the older boomers still believe that this was a very important part of the spirit of the times. Your thoughts on this concept of unique generation? MO (00:50:40): Oh, yeah. I mean, as I mentioned in terms of the Charles A. Reich book, The Greening of America, that was very much there, and not just among the students at Yale, it was among the professors. And so there was a tendency of professors to, in a sense, kiss up to the students. SM (00:51:03): There was another book at that time that was equivalent to Greening of America, and it was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. You ever had a chance to read that? MO (00:51:12): Yeah, I remember that vaguely. SM (00:51:18): That was- MO (00:51:19): And I think that was strong. I mean, there were a lot of different aspects of the counterculture. So, I gravitated in the early (19)70s to the Marxist aspect, which in some ways was more traditional. There was not a lot of drug use, his people would sit around listening to Paul Robeson music and playing chess. So yeah, some of the more colorful aspects in terms I may have missed as I pursued some other parts of it. SM (00:52:04): One of the things that you will learn in studying the Free Speech Movement is that Ronald Reagan really came to national prominence, everybody knew his acting, but in terms of politically, he came to prominence in California because he took on two issues. He wanted to bring law and order to the college campuses. He was tired of students protesting, and he was making reference to the Free Speech Movement is (19)64, (19)65, and also People's Park in (19)69, which was more violent. There's no violence in the Free Speech Movement and then the end of the welfare state. Those are two issues that were important in California. And obviously those are two issues, certainly, they kind of brought them to national attention. Your thoughts on the rise of Ronald Reagan, because part of his rise was his attack on the students. MO (00:52:56): Well, I remember once in 1972, I hitchhiked from Salem, Oregon down to San Francisco and went to sleep on the interstate highway at one of the bus stops and was awakened at 6:00 AM or something by the sprinklers going off. I remember getting up and condemning Ronald Reagan. So I was blaming him for waking me up wet from the sprinkler. So yeah, there was a tendency to look upon him as the bad guy for anything. Well, the Free Speech Movement, as I understand, it quickly became the Dirty Speech Movement. I do not know how glorious an episode it was, because I do not think there was any lack of opportunity for free speech among students, but anyway. So it was an attempt basically with the aid and comfort of professors to overturn the university system. And in many ways, it may have deserved overturning, but I do not think the results were any improvement. SM (00:54:47): Well, I know one of the central thesis was that the university's about ideas, not about corporate takeover of college campuses. And even some of the critics of higher education today say that the corporation has again taken over the university because of the issues of money and fundraising is become so prominent. Some things- MO (00:55:08): Hold on a moment please. SM (00:55:09): Tape player back out. Forget what I was saying. Oh, it is about the free speech. The university is about ideas, not about corporate takeover. So that was the basic premise of... And free speech and certainly justice and the beginning of rights, student rights and so forth. And of course, I have interviewed a lot of people about the impact and well, the universities have forgotten the entire history of the student movement is because the corporations are again in predominant power again on university campuses. Just your thoughts on that. MO (00:55:50): Well, but look there are, certainly in areas of science and engineering and so forth, I mean, I saw this at the University of Texas. There is corporate power there, but there is actually much more governmental power and corporations certainly do not run these universities now. I mean, these universities are run by the left. At the University of Texas, I do not know of any cases where someone on the left has been denied tenure or promotion or law and honor of various kinds, but it happens to conservatives a lot, it happens to Christians a lot. So yeah, there is the tenured left. A lot of folks from this generation, the 1960s, are now running the universities and creating, again, a state where the two political parties are liberal or radical, and usually the dominant political party's radical. SM (00:57:16): I know when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, and I know David Horowitz, I interviewed him too, and we had them on our campus twice. But Phyllis Schlafly's main quote is this. She said that the troublemakers of the (19)60s are now running the schools, and particularly in certain academic areas and studies departments. And she was referring to women's studies, gay and lesbian studies, Chicano studies, black studies, environmental studies. Basically about those areas, she said they're run by the left. MO (00:57:52): Yeah, I think that is largely accurate, at least in my experience from what I saw at the University of Texas, what I have read occasionally from the American Culture Program with the University of Michigan, what I saw during the year at Princeton when I was on leave and so forth. I think that is largely accurate. SM (00:58:22): I am going to turn the aside of my case. Hold on one second. You are still going to be at the school though through the end of January. I might come down to New York. I have to take three professors pictures. I may come down and take your pictures sometime early January, if that is okay. MO (00:58:42): Okay, sure. SM (00:58:44): Looking at the presidents of the boomer regeneration, from Harry Truman, right through to President Obama. You wrote a great book, a really good book on leadership, I like that. And then your three books on compassionate conservatism. I like that book. And the one you wrote in 1992, the Newt Gingrich, we talked about, those are my three favorite books. But when you look at the presidents of the time that the boomers have been alive, I would just like to brief comments on your thoughts on John Kennedy and his new frontier President Johnson and his great society, and Richard Nixon, who, when he came to power, I guess he was going to vietnamize the armies in Vietnam or whatever. And brief comments on all the other presidents from Truman to Obama in terms of leadership quality. MO (00:59:41): Truman and Eisenhower, I do not have any personal memory of. Kennedy was in many ways an old-style Democrat, machine politics from Boston, but a strenuous foreign policy. But a strenuous foreign policy, very, very opposed to the Soviet Union, and willing, as he sat in his inaugural desk, wanting to bear any price in order to win the Cold War against the Soviet Union. Economically, he cut taxes. So, these days, I mean, he would be called a conservative Democrat. Lyndon Johnson was, I think, a terrible failure as a president. Domestically, the enormous expansion of the federal government, part of which designed to help the poor, the War on Poverty, Great Society, but actually has been enormously destructive. And you can see this in a whole variety of ways, including... Again, there are a lot of cultural changes involved in this, but certainly some contribution to the disintegration of many families and poor communities. So, a terrible president domestically, and then internationally, trying to fight the Vietnam War as he did, turned out to be a disaster. SM (01:01:43): Mm-hmm. MO (01:01:43): I do not know. At this point, was back in the (19)60s. In the late (19)60s, I was certainly a dove. I think the hawks at the time made an argument, but at least what I understand is if every escalation is so carefully planned that the adversary has time to get ready for it, you are unlikely to be able to win a war that way. So it just seemed to be trying to fight a war as a politician does not, at least from my very small understanding of military history, seem to be the most effective thing. SM (01:02:26): And those two presidents seem to have what they call, as David Halberstam said, the best and the brightest within their administration. MO (01:02:35): Yeah. And this certainly showed that someone who ran the Ford Motor Company is not necessarily the best person to run a war. So that is what I think. I mean, I just think of Johnson as a total disaster as a president. SM (01:03:03): Nixon? MO (01:03:03): Oh, Richard Nixon? SM (01:03:04): Yeah. MO (01:03:07): I am not a particular fan of his either, and it would take a while to go into that. Gerald Ford, a Michigander, seemed like a nice guy, and probably did the best he could with the very bad hand he was dealt coming in right after Watergate. Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter is the first modern Democratic president, and not exactly having a realistic understanding of the world. And that contributed to the mess in Iran that we're still having difficulties with. Yeah. And then you have Ronald Reagan, who understood the world situation better than any president since John F. Kennedy, let us say. And I used to have a poster on my door at the University of Texas. On one side of it were statements made by leading college professors, leading Sovietologists, experts on the Soviet Union as late as 1988, talking about how strong the Soviet Union was, how it would survive for decades, how it was winning the Cold War against the U.S., and so forth. And then there was Ronald Reagan who was saying against all the advice of the experts and the advice of the experts within his own administration, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." So that is impressive. And his stance took the Soviet Union was not as strong as it looked and could quickly crumble was just seen as totally out to lunch just a few years before the Soviet Union in fact did crumble. And that is the clearest example in my lifetime of a political leader who had a vision that proved to be accurate and feasible much faster than even some of the people on his own team, probably most of the people on his own team would have expected or imagined possible. So that is impressive. And there are a lot of other ups and downs of the administration, but the tax cut seemed to help the economy a lot. So he's the flip side of Lyndon Johnson. Lyndon Johnson a failure both internationally and domestically, and Reagan a success both internationally and domestically. SM (01:06:21): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. MO (01:06:24): George H. W. Bush, the first president that I met, and so have some sense of beyond that mediated by television, but seemed like a very nice guy, a very honorable person, did not have the vision of Reagan. And that got him, that made him a one-term president essentially. Bill Clinton, just, I mean, such a supremely competent politician. Probably no better politician in America. I mean, he is probably the best politician in America since Henry Clay and probably better than Clay, and then Clay ran for the President three times and lost, but very similar in a sense of the person who was good at doing small things to gain popularity and insinuate himself and into the confidence of people. Tell you a Bill Clinton story. Well, so a few Clinton stories, if I may. SM (01:07:55): That is okay. MO (01:07:55): Because this right... At the end of 1995, and then again at the end of 1997, my family and I were invited guests for the annual New Year's thing down at Hilton Head, Renaissance Weekend. And in (19)95, this was right after the battle with the Republicans about supposedly shutting down the government. In (19)95 he and Hillary came at the last moment. They came on December 31st. Typically, I was told that they would come maybe on December 28th or 7th, go to a variety of panels. They came on December 31st. And December 31st, New Year's Eve, the schedule was that Hillary at 11:00 PM was supposed to introduce Bill, and then he would speak until about 11:50, at which point people could break and go to the champagne and dessert table. Now at dinner, Bill and Hillary were a couple of tables away, but she had her back turned to him a lot. And from one person who was at the table, I mean, she was incredibly frosty towards him. And then at 11 o'clock she stood up just to introduce Bill. But instead of doing that, she started giving a speech about her travels around the world. She took us all the way around the world and then took us all the way around again and kept speaking until about 11:55, maybe 11:50, but giving Bill only time for a few short remarks ending at about 10 seconds to midnight, at which point there was a mad dash for the dessert and champagne table. Now, I find that interesting because later on, reading Ken Starr's chronology, it appears that earlier that day, Bill and Monica had a tryst. SM (01:10:02): Oh, wow. MO (01:10:02): And I suspect that Hillary, despite her later denials, knew about all this. And thus not only leading her frostiness at dinner, but her extraordinary, taking what was supposed to be a five-minute introduction, turning into a 50-minute speech. SM (01:10:17): Wow. MO (01:10:17): For instance, squeezing out Bill. So Bill Clinton had to live. I mean, he messed around a lot. He also had to live with Hillary, which does not justify his messing around at all. But this was the type of... Well, let me just go on. I mean, that was just my early first experience. And my second experience with him, I think, is more telling. I mean, the first one kind of sets it up that here was some of the tensions in his life and the way he lived. But the second one, he did come. He and Hillary came down a few days early. And so he would go into these various sessions. And the way it works, there are lot of these different panels on different subjects. So everyone's involved in a variety of panels, and he just bobs in and bobs out, and wherever he bobs in, whoever's speaking might finish speaking and then the chairman... I saw this several times. The chairman would stop and say, "Now, Mr. President, what do you have to say about this topic?" So, I was on one panel talking about interracial adoption, and Bill comes in and I, of course, finish up what I am saying at that point, and then he says, "And this question, interracial adoption, is the most important question, so important in our national life that I am thinking about it all the time." Okay? SM (01:11:59): Mm-hmm. MO (01:11:59): Then I heard him say the same thing in relation to several other questions, thinking about it all the time, and this is what he would do. There was-was one session where Bill Nye the Science Guy from CBS was talking about the importance of the U.S. going onto a metric system, and having heard Bill Clinton say all these different things, "I am thinking about this all the time," I expect him to say that then. But he did not that time, so he was not thinking all the time about the U.S. going on a metric system. He is thinking all the time about transracial adoption. So, I went up to him at one point, and this is when I was writing this book on the American leadership tradition that he referred to. And so I mentioned to him that I had been studying the 1830s, 1840s, and finding very interesting. And reading about Henry Clay, and Clinton was a lot like Henry Clay. And I expected him to ask me how, at which point would have talked a little bit about how Clay was. Henry Clay had a reputation as an extreme womanizer with adultery and so forth. But he did not give me that opportunity. He said, "That period, those decades, 1830s, 1840s are so important. I think about them all the time." Anyway. SM (01:13:21): Yeah. Wow. Those are quite the stories. How about the last Bush and, of course, President Obama? MO (01:13:30): Oh, well, the last Bush, I liked him. I still do. I did some occasional talking with him in Texas about what became known as compassionate conservatism. Yeah. I think he had a personal visceral understanding of it from the way he himself changed from being pretty much at least a borderline alcoholic. And then his life changing. I mean, he understood how other people can change. He understood the way that a long-term alcoholic or an addict or someone else through God's grace can change. And so, he just understood this in a way that other politicians cannot. And then he had this kind of individual history, thinking about going about baseball. The Governor's Mansion in Texas is a nice old building a couple of blocks away from the Capitol, but the dome of the Texas Capitol is even a slightly bigger, I am told, than the U.S. Capitol. But very similar. And so, he showed me up once on his balcony that overlooks the Capitol and talk about how he would sit up there at night and listen to Texas Rangers games on the radio and just sort of look over at the Capitol and listen to baseball and things like that. So there was a certain romantic streak there about... I am not all the time just being a policy wonk. I care about baseball. I found that all very appealing, and his administration was disappointing to me in that compassionate conservatism that was supposed to be a decentralizing policy became looked upon as part of big government. And so it really ruined the brand. But that was the smallest part of his activities. I mean, once 9/11 happened, he became a foreign policy or war president, or any hope of real change in domestic policy really went out the window at that point. It was Iraq and Afghanistan all the time. So that I found disappointing since I was involved in these matters. I mean, you read about it in The Tragedy of American Compassion. SM (01:16:14): Yes. Yes. MO (01:16:14): Welfare reform and fighting poverty, and really not much got done. And compassionate conservatism got a bad reputation. And the faith-based initiative pretty much fizzled. But that was outside of his control. SM (01:16:29): And, of course, President Obama, he has been there two years, but... MO (01:16:36): Oh, well, I disagree with a lot of his policies, most of his policies I suspect. But personally, as compared to Bill Clinton, he seems to have a strong marriage and strong family, and I credit him on that. And I really do not like it when conservatives attack him personally or start psychoanalyzing him. I mean, we disagreed politically. But he seems to be within his political mode, which is essentially an attempt to syncretize Marxism and Christianity. I mean, he's consistent and honorable in that, which again, I very much disagreed with back when I was in the Communist Party. I got some training in how to talk to church people trying to syncretize Christianity and Marxism. And I recognize in the types of approaches Obama the has basically that attempt, which I think is trying to meld two beliefs that are diametrically opposed. So, I mean, I see some policy incoherence, and I do not like his approach, his policy aspects, but personally, it is important to have a guy right down in the White House who is honorable, and particularly important, I hope, and useful in the Black community, where over 70 percent of kids are born out of wedlock, to actually be an operating family, and to see a guy who says, being smart is good, it is not being white. It is you. And you can get somewhere. So personally, I applaud his presidency, but politically, public policy, I think he is totally wrong. SM (01:18:49): Yeah. One of the things about President Obama is he tries to separate himself from the (19)60s generation, but his critics say he is the epitome of it. And some of his critics, like Newt Gingrich will say he is even to the Left or the Left and... MO (01:19:03): Yeah. SM (01:19:04): So, he cannot win know-how, and he is a boomer because he was only two years old, but... MO (01:19:11): Right. SM (01:19:11): Yeah. So- MO (01:19:14): So, I mean, he is the epitome of it in terms of policy. But in terms of personal discipline, he is the antithesis. SM (01:19:22): On Richard Nixon, I know we cannot talk about him, but would you say that Watergate was a watershed moment in the lives of many boomers because there were a lot of other experiences, the Vietnam War and McNamara and the Gulf of Tonkin. But that watershed experience really showed about not trusting leaders. And how can a guy so smart be so stupid in what he did? MO (01:19:53): Yeah. That is a good question. I think that there was already so much distrust of leaders. I do not know if he made it all that much worse. I mean, that was right at the tail of an era where the operative mantra was never trust anyone over 30. It is not as if he created that distrust. In fact, the distrust probably created Watergate in some ways because the country had gone to the Left. Nixon did not think he could get any favorable treatment from the wizards of media or academia, and that seemed to speed the sense that you have to fight back by whatever means necessary. So he in a sense became the mirror image operatively of his opponent. And that is what brought down his presidency. SM (01:21:12): In terms of the Eisenhower, I think a lot of boomers do remember him because they were in elementary school, and I remember him as a kind of a grandfather figure, and I felt kind of comfortable because he had been a hero of World War II and he had that smile and he made you feel comfortable. I do not know. Maybe he was not doing what other presidents have done, but there was something about Eisenhower in the (19)50s that fit right. MO (01:21:40): I do not know if you are- SM (01:21:40): Yeah. MO (01:21:43): Yeah. I just do not remember very well. The grandfather figure I remember is when I was 20 years old in 1970. In May of 1970, we had a whole series of long weekends, one being the anti-war demonstrations, and then Bobby Seale demonstrations in New Haven. And then I think the next weekend there was a big anti-war march, a few 100,000 people in Washington. And on Monday after that weekend, the idea was that college kids were supposed to camp the halls of Congress and talk with their representatives. Did not have any success in there really. But towards the end of the day, we were just walking past the office of the Speaker of the House, John McCormick at the time. And McCormack was from Cambridge, which was right next door where I grew up. And so my roommates and I decided just to go in and see. This is about 05:30 or so, see if McCormack would talk with us for a few minutes. And surprisingly enough, he said, "Sure." And so we went in, and I thought I was being very bright, making analogies, since McCormack was of Irish ancestry, making analogies of the Irish revolt against the British to the position of the Vietnamese in regards to the U.S., and so forth. And he kind of laughed it off, but engaged just in a very grandfatherly way. And then he said, and I found out later this is true, he said, "Well, I need to go home to have dinner with my wife. That is what I do every day." And apparently this is true. Whenever he was in Washington, I mean, they would always have dinner together. But for here, let me show you something. And so, he took us into the Chamber of the House of Representatives and pointed us to this chair, this big tall chair that swivels around. He said, "Here. Go sit in my chair. And I am often out at dinner, but please have fun, sit in my chair. And there's the sergeant of arms or whatever who will watch you." And we all did. I mean, we all thought of ourselves as 20 year old mature radicals, but we enjoyed being like McCormack's grandchildren or great-grandchildren, probably at that point, and swiveling in his chair. SM (01:23:53): How incredible. Yeah. I remember. MO (01:23:57): So... SM (01:23:57): Yeah. MO (01:23:58): Yeah. So he actually knew how to treat us. I mean, he took us seriously, but not too seriously. He did not kiss up to us. He did not agree with us. He basically knew, I mean, here are kids who think they're very wise in their own eyes, and I will humor them and enjoy them, and then let them fool around in my chair. SM (01:24:19): What's interesting is the first lie that I remember as a young person growing up was very clear. It was 1959 when Eisenhower went on television and said that the U2 incident, we were not spying. And Eisenhower lied. And it was well known that he was lying. So the question I had here now is about your books. The two in particular, The Tragedy of American Compassion and Compassionate Conservatism are two very important and influential books that you wrote. What is the basic meaning of those two books, and why are they so influential, not only back when Newt Gingrich was handing them out in Congress, but still today? I have read a lot of literature that they're still talking about it. And so what's the basic premise? MO (01:25:09): Well, The Tragedy of American Compassion told the story, essentially tragic story, that with good intentions of helping the poor, government grew and created new programs, and those programs, for reasons that I explained, produced exactly the opposite results. So it's a tragedy because there's an attempt to soar high towards the suns and there's hubris and the wings melt and you plummet to Earth. So, it is a tragedy when attempting to do something that is exciting, to be a pioneer, to do the right thing, you end up actually hurting those you are inclined to help. So, I tend to look upon a lot of poverty fighting by the Left as not... There certainly was a power grabbing aspect of it, but a lot of it was very well-intentioned. It just failed for reasons I saw. And so that is why I think that it had some play, and if it is useful, that is why, because it is not so much attacking or psychoanalyzing or yelling, but trying to tell a story and explain what happened in a way that indicates there were honorable people on both sides. SM (01:26:44): What are your thoughts on the new Left? Obviously, a lot of times when people criticize the (19)60s generation, we know that only five to 10 percent may have been the activists of a particular era, and 90 percent we are probably subconsciously affected, but were not out on the streets or on the front lines. What are your thoughts on the new Left in the (19)60s and the liberal activists linked to the following groups? So just your quick comments on these following groups. Do not have to be in any great detail. Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee? MO (01:27:21): Playing with violence. SM (01:27:23): Because that was SNCC. MO (01:27:25): Right? SM (01:27:27): Southern Christian Leadership? MO (01:27:29): So, you are saying, what, you are saying, the Student Nonviolent... This is SNCC you are talking about? SM (01:27:32): Yes. MO (01:27:33): Right? Yeah. Yeah. SM (01:27:35): Southern- MO (01:27:36): Playing with Fire. Playing with fire. SM (01:27:38): Southern Christian Leadership Conference? MO (01:27:43): Largely Christian. SM (01:27:45): Congress of Racial Equality? MO (01:27:53): The same two involved with the government. SM (01:27:57): NAACP? MO (01:28:00): Same. More so than core, I suspect, but similar. SM (01:28:05): The National Urban League? MO (01:28:08): Similar. SM (01:28:09): Students for Democratic- MO (01:28:11): In other words, the problem was instead of helping people to be independent of government, it made people more dependent. It made people dependent on government. And that is not a good situation in which to be. SM (01:28:25): Students for Democratic Society? MO (01:28:31): Students in essence for non-democratic society. SM (01:28:36): Of course, the Weathermen? MO (01:28:41): Turned out they really... It was Ronald Reagan who knew which way the wind was blowing. And they did not know. SM (01:28:49): The American Indian Movement? MO (01:28:53): Never had much involvement with them. SM (01:28:56): National Organization for Women? MO (01:29:03): Sympathizing with the plight of Betty Friedan. I mean, I sympathize with the plight of Betty Friedan, but they did not help. The organization has not helped women. SM (01:29:20): Earth Day? MO (01:29:28): Replacing in some ways Arbor Day, and Arbor Day emphasized, let us say, going out and planting a tree, and Earth Day by pushing for more. That is probably accomplished less. SM (01:29:44): The Young Lords? MO (01:29:49): I had no involvement. Do not really know. SM (01:29:52): Black Panthers? MO (01:29:59): Yeah. The. MO (01:30:00): There was a Black Panther led rally in the Yale hockey rink in 1970, where one of the Black Panther leaders beat a white kid in front of everyone, and the populist cheered. SM (01:30:36): Vietnam Veterans Against the War. MO (01:30:37): Well, a lot of them had reason to be against the war, but at least from what I understand of John Kerry's testimony, there is a tendency to emphasize the worst and not keep in mind the reasons America went into Vietnam. Again, there is a tragedy. There were initially good intentions of initially good intentions, and then it became a mess. SM (01:31:21): Young Americans for Freedom. MO (01:31:31): I never had any involvement with them in their peak. So while ideologically I would tend to be in agreement with a lot of what they were saying. I just really did not, I did not know them personally. SM (01:31:49): I think you have talked already about this, but the Free Speech Movement, I think you have already... MO (01:31:56): Yeah. SM (01:31:57): Yeah. Kent State and Colo... I think you have talked about Kent State already. Columbia, (19)68. MO (01:32:06): Oh. Then for too many professors lacking any confidence and catering to students unwisely. SM (01:32:28): Chicago, (19)68. MO (01:32:32): Well, that I just saw on television was not there, so I have just heard different things about it, and so I do not necessarily blame either side there. This was a confrontation waiting to happen. SM (01:32:50): And then the Moratorium, (19)69. MO (01:32:54): Yeah, this was a... Led to a big demonstration in Washington. I did not go that one, I went to the next one. So again, I am just generally aware of this I do not have any personal involvement. SM (01:33:06): When you look at the year that the boomers have been alive, which is 1946 to 2011, the oldest is now 64, and the youngest is 49. So, there are no young squirts anymore in this generation, even in the latter group. In a few words, I know you have already talked a little bit about the (19)50s, but in a few words, could you describe the following periods in America, just from your perspective, the period 1946 to 1960. MO (01:33:39): The two were not... SM (01:33:43): Well, you know. MO (01:33:44): No, they, Cold War, economic growth. Nothing. I have no brilliant observations tonight. SM (01:33:56): The year 1961 to 1970. MO (01:34:06): Yeah, I think I will skip this because I have already sort talked about that and do not have any pithy observations here. SM (01:34:12): Yeah, it is all those different eras through... I think you talked about the president, so... In the (19)60s and (19)70s, students protested against the Vietnam War, but they were also against the IBM mentality that universities were like factories producing mines that where they tried to get people to think alike based on the needs of society, like a production line. The Free Speech Movement was a front-runner of many protests later on in the (19)60s and early (19)70s where they wanted the universities to be about ideas, not corporate takeover. Yet today, some top educators say we have returned to this mentality when corporate takeover takes precedence over ideas. If you could, and I am particularly... I know I asked this before, but the area of fundraising has become so prominent in universities today that the... I have read a lot of articles, there's a fear that fundraising has gone to not only that the president of universities are, that is their number one job, but there is a fear that ideas will stop in universities if, for example: speakers, whether it be conservative or liberal, come to a university and thus there may be a potential loss of revenue because these speakers have come to the school. Just your thoughts on that, my comment there. MO (01:35:42): Oh, I mean that may be, I tend to see the, as we have talked about, I tend to see the left political emphasis to be greater having. So I mean that indeed is a problem, but not the most serious problem. SM (01:36:05): Well, I remember when Michelle Malkin went to Berkeley and the students were not allowing her to... did not want her to speak. And to me that is ridiculous. I do not care if it is conservative or liberal, everybody has a right to give their ideas, especially if they are invited. MO (01:36:25): I agree. I once was charged with introducing Wade Connolly, the... SM (01:36:29): Oh, we had him on our campus. MO (01:36:36): And yeah, the left students came with... They had a big bass drum that they kept beating and he eventually gave up. I mean, they would not allow them to speak at all. So yes, this is why at least this epitome of the free speech movement is not for free speech at all. SM (01:36:56): Wow. Yeah, many members of the boomer generation wanted to change the world for the better. We talked about this, but how would you grade them overall on the scale of 1 to 10, in terms of their ability to change the world we live in? MO (01:37:14): Well, I mean, every generation changes the world in some ways. I spoke the idea was to change the world and make it a more wonderful place, and I would probably give about a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10. SM (01:37:27): How would you rate their leadership on a scale of one to ten? We have had two boomer presidents now, President Clinton, and actually President Obama, pshaw, he is two years old, so. How would you rate their leadership on a scale of one to ten as a boomer generation? MO (01:37:46): Oh, that is hard. There is so many different leaders. There are the two presidents, I would rate them differently. That is too causes of question for me. SM (01:37:58): Okay. And how would you rate them in the area of compassion, as a generation of compassion? MO (01:38:08): Oh about... Well, again I would not generalize. I would say that some of them, I would rate some of them a 10, I would rate some of them a 1. Overall to make a generalization, I would tell you about an 8 in talking. About a 3 in doing. SM (01:38:30): Oh, wow. Do you believe today's universities are afraid of the return of activism? You are working in a college environment right now that has a basic philosophy, but you were also at the University of Texas Austin. MO (01:38:43): Correct. SM (01:38:45): Do you feel that universities are afraid of that word, that volunteerism is the okay word on campuses today? And the reason why they're afraid of the term activism as a return to the (19)60s kind of? MO (01:39:00): Yeah, but I do not see any huge worries about that because the (19)60s have not happened again. I mean, the reaction to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars has been so small compared to that to Vietnam. And part may be because we do not have to draft anymore, and part there may be other reasons, but I do not see any huge fear in part of university administrators. SM (01:39:28): And could you discuss in your own words how you defined the culture wars or what happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s is still alive today in our body politic and in everyday interactions between people who disagree on tactics, solutions, belief systems between each other? MO (01:39:48): Well, I mean, the basic cultural divide is between people who essentially, as fallen sinners as all of us are, try to live or aspire to live in accord with biblical principles and those who have become self-proclaim gods. [inaudible] So, I mean, that is the basic cultural divide and there are lots of ripples from that all over the place. But that is the, basically, "Who do we worship God or a man?" SM (01:40:33): I have just a list of names here of people. You can just give quick comments on them. These are personalities from the (19)60s and (19)70s. The first one is Eugene McCarthy. MO (01:40:49): Again, did not know him personally, but he showed courage and seemed to be a personally virtuous individual as far as I know. SM (01:41:05): Bobby Kennedy. MO (01:41:14): Certainly a person who thought things through carefully, who thought things through with political care and caution. And I tend to think of him to some extent like John Kennedy, a representative of the older Democratic Party, that while I might disagree about some things. I mean, they had a lot of personal reasons to be associated with it. I mean, said personal, I mean a lot of decency associated with it. There were all sorts of different things about personal lives and so forth, but from what I know he did care about his family, he did care about this country, and was willing to be... Well gave his life campaigning. So basically, I think positively about him. SM (01:42:27): Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X. MO (01:42:32): Well, I tend to think positive about Martin Luther King Jr. I mean, again, there are all sorts of questions about his dissertation, his sexual life, his this, his that. But I think he was a positive force in American life, particularly in his emphasis on non-violent. Malcolm X, hard to know because he seemed to be in a period of change at the time he was gunned down. Hard to know what would have happened. Certainly his early writing and the autobiography of Malcolm X was filled with hatred. Again, the earlier part of it, and who knows what would have happened to him. But his legacy, I do not think was positive in the way that I still tend to think positively of towards Martin Luther King Jr. SM (01:43:20): How about Bayard Rustin? MO (01:43:25): He was more of an ideological leader, a theorist. It's been so long since I read it in college, so I will defer on that. SM (01:43:40): Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. MO (01:43:45): Oh, Jane Fonda certainly very cute and crute in other movies. Pretty good actress. At the time I applauded her, so I am no better than she. But certainly going to North Vietnam, and as I understand it, posing with anti-aircraft gun that shot down American flyers and so forth, not a good thing to do. Tom Hayden, very consistent through his career of trying to push forward radical ideas and sometimes in one way, sometimes through California politics. So, I think he has been largely a destructive force, and he does not have the virtue of being cute and a good actress like his wife. SM (01:44:51): David Harris. MO (01:44:54): Oh, that is the name I remember so vaguely mean. SM (01:44:58): Joann Baez's husband. MO (01:45:03): Yeah, I do not remember much about him. SM (01:45:04): William Buckley and Barry Goldwater. MO (01:45:12): Well, Buckley did a lot to revive the Conservative movement and in largely a positive way. I mean, he turned to be a fusionist, he wanted to bring together libertarians and traditionalists. Wanted to bring together Christians and non-Christians. I think he was a positive force in American life and fun to listen to, and a good writer. And there are not all that many good writers, so I tend to esteem them. Barry Goldwater. Well, the world is the theater of God and the way God brings in particular actors fits the time. I mean he briefly had a starring role, and I think overall acquitted himself recently in that role. So I just tend to think of him... He was an astounding American character from the 1960s who was quintessentially American and regardless of any... I could tell you a lot, but kind of delightful as an American character, SM (01:46:36): Benjamin Spock and Timothy Leary. MO (01:46:42): I remember Timothy Leary turned, what is it? Turn on, tune in, drop out? A destructive presence in American life. And I never took LSD, that is one of the things I missed, I am glad I did not. Cause apparently it had some very bad effects on some people whose lives were ruined in the process. So, a very destructive. Benjamin Spock, I mean who knows whether his baby book was useful or not. I guess a lot of parents found it useful. There's a lot of controversy about whether the way kids were raised, Spock kids. Later on, his anti-war stuff I do not think was particularly helpful. SM (01:47:25): How about Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman? MO (01:47:29): Well, Abbie Hoffman, I remember from the Bobby Seale demonstrations and that he got up and he was chanting, the president of Yale was named Kingman Brewster, and he got up and was chanting always, "Fuck Kingman Brewer. Fuck Kingman Brewer." And I do not know whether he was deliberately mispronouncing the name as an insult. Seems kind of a strange insult or whether he was so ill-informed what was going on that he actually did not even get the name. That to me as a reporter, if you do not even get the name, that tends to, leaves me to look less favorably on anything else. So he was kind of... again there's a very opposite person from Barry Goldwater, but one of these, a uniquely character who was amusing and had a passing role in the theater. And at this point I look back and I see him as being very destructive, but this is part of the panorama of American life. And so I just think back at him with amusement, but also certain disdain. SM (01:48:45): How about George McGovern and Hubert Humphrey? MO (01:48:49): George McGovern I rode around with when I was a reporter in Bend, Oregon, early in his campaign before he got any chance at all. I mean, I was reporting and wrote a profile on him. Seemed like a very nice guy personally. Later on, after he was in the Senate, I read that he owned for a while a hotel or an inn of some kind in Connecticut and learn something about a business and about the difficulty of managing a business, and said he wished he had known some of that when he was in the Senate. So yeah, I think of McGovern as the person who turned the Democratic Party from something that had good points to it, to something that is culturally and internationally very unhelpful. Yeah, nice guy. Personally, I wish he should have been the manager or owner of an inn before he went to the Senate. SM (01:49:48): How about Humphrey? MO (01:49:57): Again here, here is a guy who had a lot of benevolent impulses, certainly his... In 1948 I think he was mayor of Minneapolis and standing up against the state's rioters and the Democratic Party, Strom Thurmond at the time, and others. I think he was useful in promoting racial integration at that point. Certainly, a happy warrior, was not real nasty on the campaign trail. Kind of a bridge between the old Democratic Party and the McGovern Democratic Party in a way. So, I do not know, this is interesting. I mean, I have not thought about these people for a long time, but it is hard for me to think ill of some of them, unless they were really diametrically tearing down some good institutions, unless they were very deliberately attacking God. It is hard for me to think negatively of them because I think back to them though as well, this is part of the... These are interesting characters SM (01:51:09): That gets into Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger. MO (01:51:14): Yeah, well, Kissinger I have a hard time distinguishing from Dr. Strangelove. So kind of a mad genius in his way. The advice he gave concerning Vietnam, I do not think was all that good, and in other areas as well. McNamara, seems to me in fighting war it's good to take into account the experience of those who had their boots on the ground. SM (01:51:52): How about Ed Musky and Spiro Agnew? MO (01:52:00): Yeah, none of them made a huge impact on me. Spiro Agnew I once I remember talking with a speech writer who had the enjoyable task of throwing out some alliteration. I cannot remember one. I mean talking about the press and so forth. So Spiro Agnew it seems to me like a little kid who was spitting at his opponents all the time, but then not to think all that benevolently of him, and then he seemed somewhat corrupt, as I recall. That must be a Democratic politician. No, I do not know anything about him personally really. I do not remember anything about him personally, but not a person I remember as either particularly heroic or particularly nasty. He represented the Democratic Party at the time, which some good things, some bad things. SM (01:53:02): Daniel Ellsberg and Gloria Steinhem. MO (01:53:10): Well, Ellsberg I think was one of the heroes for my roommates and myself at the time. Beyond that, he has faded from my memory. Gloria Steinem, I mean, the feminist movement took a wrong turn when it became pro-abortion. And I tend to think of feminists like Susan B. Anthony in the 19th century who I think were doing the right thing and fighting for women's rights in a way that did not kill babies in the process. I mean, Susan B. Anthony was very pro-life. So yeah, I am all in favor of women being able to be in good jobs and to have equal treatment and so forth, but when Gloria Steinhem tries to advance women on the corpses of unborn children, I cannot think very benevolently of her. SM (01:54:27): Along this line, where would you put people like Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan and Geraldine Ferraro? MO (01:54:36): Again, Betty Friedan, I just remember her original book and I thought her complaint had a lot of merit to it. But all of them, again, this is a great sadness in American life, when they embraced abortion at that point, I just think this is something that is so evil and so much against the good parts of liberalism. I mean, liberalism was always... Hubert Humphrey would say some more nice things [inaudible] he was always talking about how we treat people at the dawn of life, at the end of life. He was a compassionate liberal. I do not think the big government strategies were effective, but I can certainly honor his goals. And in the Democratic Party, led by some of the feminists you just mentioned, turned pro-abortion. I mean, that to me was a killer for the Democratic Party. And if Democrats have managed to resist that, they would have been much more virtuous and also more successful politically over the years. SM (01:55:45): The most recent boomers that are very influential certainly are Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice. Any thoughts on those two? MO (01:55:57): Not particularly. I mean, Condoleezza Rice, I mean very smart and a good musician, and also knowledgeable about football. These are not bad things. And from what I understand, she was a good advisor to President Bush, a good Secretary of State. So I tend to think positively of her. Hillary Clinton, I cannot, again, the abortion part of her agenda and so forth. Therefore, I have a hard time getting mad at her personally. Bill put her through a lot and no, she hasn't been as bad a Secretary of State as a lot of people would have expected. SM (01:56:53): Go right ahead. MO (01:56:55): No, I mean, she seems to have been a good mother to Chelsea, and I do not know the details of her personal life. I imagine it must have been very, very hard over the years. And whether she should have stayed with Bill or not, that is not a judgment for me to make. So yeah, I just cannot get as mad at Hillary as some people do. SM (01:57:21): How about Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh? MO (01:57:27): Again, I see all these, I mean, they are just astounding characters. I mean, Newt, actually, I got to know a little bit. I remember in 1995, and again, I am very grateful to him, and that he made The Tragedy of American Compassion well known. So, I am very grateful to him for doing that. And I think he had a genuine concern for poor people and a genuine concern about welfare. I think it was hugely reckless what he did in having his affair, I mean, number one, wrong. Number two, when political leaders have affairs like that, it's not fair to the thousands of people who work for them, and many kids dedicated their lives, because they just have thrown it all the away. I remember sitting in a restaurant late one night, it was almost midnight in Washington near the White House, and I asked Newt, well, how could I pray for him? And he said, he thought for a little, and he says, "Well, the physical things." And I thought he meant by that, well, he was on the go 20 hours a day and with reporters ready to take any slip of the tongue and amplify it. I thought that was what he was talking about mean, but he may have been talking about his adultery at the time. And I had lunch once with his wife, she seemed like a very nice person, but she did not deserve to be treated the way he treated her. So, I tend to, as I think about various people, if they are pro-abortion that gets me angry and if they have not been faithful to their wives, that irritates me. So, in WORLD, back in 2007, actually, we had a good interview with Newt and we had a profile of him that I wrote and we put on the cover basically, "Newt do not run." And I feel the same way now. He just has not proven himself as a trustworthy leader, and in part because of the way he treated his first two wives. I am glad now that he seems to have settle down and if it came to voting for him or Obama, I would vote for him on policy issues. MO (02:00:02): I would vote for him on policy issues, but Obama seems to be personally leading a more virtuous life. SM (02:00:10): And Rush? MO (02:00:12): Rush, I think he performs a useful function in American life. Given the ardent liberalism and sometimes radicalism of the big television networks, with the exception of Fox, and the big newspapers, I am glad that talk radio is there, and Rush has been a pioneer in it. Some of the things he says I do not like, but overall, I think he's performed a positive function in American life. SM (02:00:51): Just a few more names, and then, my final two questions. William Fulbright and Gaylord Nelson? MO (02:00:59): I do not remember any of them, either. Fulbright, I remember as a smart guy from Arkansas, the Fulbright program and so forth. I just remember him as a very well-spoken person who turned against the Vietnam War, and maybe he was right in doing so at the time. Gaylord Nelson, I just do not remember very well at all. Just a name from Wisconsin, that is about it. SM (02:01:26): Yeah, he is the founder of Earth Day. Rachel Carson. MO (02:01:29): Right. SM (02:01:30): Rachel Carson, who wrote "Silent Spring." MO (02:01:34): Rachel Carson, I wrote an article a few years ago about the growth of malaria and other diseases in Africa because of the bans on spraying and so forth, and bed nets just do not keep out the mosquitoes all that well. As a result of Rachel Carson and her good intentions, there are a lot of people who have come down with malaria who otherwise would not have. That, to me, is a great tragedy. I just think of her and the association with that. Again, I am sure there are many other things she did, the book and so forth, but thinking about malaria, you have got to kill mosquitoes before they ruin the lives of people. Protecting, preserving human life, to me, is a priority. I am sure there were some good things she accomplished, but perhaps going too far. It is just been destructive of millions of lives. SM (02:02:50): Tommy Smith and Stokely Carmichael? MO (02:02:54): I just remember Tommy Smith from the 1968 Olympics, that is about it. At the time, I applauded it. Looking back, that is not something I think he should have done. Stokely Carmichael, I think, is very destructive. "Burn, baby burn," that was not helpful to anyone, and particularly the people who did the burning. SM (02:03:20): How about John Lewis? MO (02:03:24): Very limited memory of him. SM (02:03:27): He is the congressman from Georgia. MO (02:03:30): Yeah, that is about all I know about him. SM (02:03:32): And then, the Black Panthers, which is basically seven different people: Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown, and Kathleen Cleaver. MO (02:03:51): I remember at Yale, Bobby Seale came to speak, and I wrote an article about his speech, and just the reaction of Yale students. This was playing, basically, and again, this is why in some ways, when people saw it getting serious, with Penn State and so forth, the playing stopped. This is playing. Here, you basically had bullies, and loud mouths, and criminals essentially, and honoring them. This was playing, and I played, other people played, but it just was not a mature way to respond to them. SM (02:04:37): The two well-known Weathermen, Mark Rudd and Bernadine Dohrn. MO (02:04:45): Again, largely destructive, and sometimes ending up some of their associates, when bombs blew up in New York and so forth. I just see them as destructive in American life, and in so far as they're still around, and they have not changed their thinking, probably still destructive, although not in as direct way as they aspired to be in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. SM (02:05:12): Of course, Vietnam, Colin Powell and William Westmoreland. MO (02:05:16): Again, I never had any personal involvement with them. They both seem to be honorable people. Colin Powell, I wish he had been pro-life. Had he been, I certainly would have wanted to support him for the president. Westmoreland, I do not know, had he had a free hand, it would have turned out better. It seems to me to be a miserable position to be a general, asked to just do a strategy, be micromanaged by Lyndon Johnson. SM (02:06:06): Okay, that was my last... the Vietnam Memorial, just your thoughts. My next to last question is the issue of healing. We did take a group of students from Westchester University to Washington DC in 1995. The students, none of them were born at the time of the (19)60s, they had looked at the entire year of 1968, and they wanted to ask Senator Muskie this question. Do you feel that- MO (02:06:39): Can you hold on just one moment please? SM (02:06:40): Yes, it's okay. The question they asked Senator Muskie in (19)95 was this: due to the divisions that were so strong in the 1960s, particularly in (19)68, with the divisions between Black and White, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war or against the war, or supported the troops and were against the troops, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its graves like the Civil War generation, not healing, still bitter, still divided? That was the question they asked Senator Muskie, and they were hoping he was going to talk about the (19)68 convention, and all the other stuff. I will tell you what he said after I hear your response. Do you think healing is an issue in this country, that people are still bitter about what happened back then? Or, do you think it is not an issue? MO (02:07:43): I do not know, I cannot generalize. I think some people are and some people are not. I do not know what the percentages are. I know a lot of my former colleagues at the University of Texas, some of them are still bitter, but whether it is old grievances or new grievances, I do not know. SM (02:08:17): Do you think the wall has done a good job? Jan Scruggs wrote the book "To Heal A Nation," and of course, it was geared toward healing the families of those who lost loved ones in the war, and also, all the Vietnam vets who served in that war, to heal them. I think he wanted to go beyond that, to try to heal the nation, as his book said. Do you think the wall has healed the nation in any way? MO (02:08:41): I am sorry, the Vietnam Memorial? SM (02:08:44): The Vietnam Memorial, yes. MO (02:08:48): No, I do not think something like that can heal a nation. That would be an overreach. Does it help individuals? Yeah, I have been there and seen the way people react to it. I think it is actually pretty effective. I would hope there has been healing there, because that is not going on. In other words, the abortion war is still very much with us, so I do not think there is going to be any healing until finally, we come to some reconciliation. SM (02:09:35): That is Roe v Wade, the Roe v Wade decision. MO (02:09:39): Yeah, exactly. In a sense, that is a gift from the Supreme Court that keeps on giving in a very negative way. As far as the Vietnam War, that is long ago at this point. It depends. I have seen reconciliation between, for example, Japanese Christians and Christians who dropped bombs on them, similar in Vietnam. I think the reconciliation tends to come when people realize that we're all sinners. We have all, in various ways, hated, and done destructive things. We cannot compliment ourselves, and lord it over anyone else. That generally comes with, at least in this country, most often a Christian understanding. I have seen that reconciliation between former enemies through Christ. I have not seen it very often through politics, or anything else. SM (02:11:08): Yes, Senator Muskie's response was that he did not even mention 1968, or any of the problems in America in the (19)60s. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War over the area of race." He talked about racism in our society that was ongoing. That is the way he responded. The issue of trust is also a quality that is often given, a lack of trust is often given to many people in the boomer generation, for good reason, because they saw so many leaders lie to them. Do you think it is good to be a generation that is labeled as not a trusting generation? Is that good or bad? MO (02:11:58): I do not think it much matters. SM (02:12:03): Do you believe, like a lot of people who are majors in political science in college, that the first thing they learn in political science is, the stronger democracy is the democracy where the citizens are constantly not trusting their government and their leaders, because that is what a democracy is about? It keeps people on their toes. MO (02:12:30): Certainly, there is an old hymn, "Do not put your trust in princes," and so forth. A certain amount of distrust is very healthy. Does it come to the point where one assumes that everyone is always lying all the time? You cannot live in a society that way. Distrust of people in power is very useful, but the assumption that they are all out to get you, that they're all thieves, where does useful distrust end and paranoia begin? That is a difficult charting sometimes. It seems to be useful that people are distrustful of politicians, because then, you're going to be in favor of decentralized government, less centralized power, that is very helpful. Taken to an extreme, you have a society that just tears itself apart. SM (02:13:42): What do you think the lasting legacy will be? Usually, the best history books, or books in sociology, political books are written 50 years after something ends, whether it be a war or talking about a generation. What do you think historians and writers will say about this boomer generation once the last boomer has passed? What do you think their evaluation will be of it? Of course, it is hard to say it now, because the boomers are just entering old age, and they have still got 20 years of life, most of them. MO (02:14:20): Yeah, that is a good question. I am just trying to think, if I were around in 50 years, and trying to write a history of this period, this has been an extraordinarily blessed generation. Only a small percentage have had to face war, or natural disaster, or hunger, or any of the things that were the common lot of mankind since the beginning, or close to the beginning. It's been a very blessed generation, and what have we done with those blessings? I think some people have acquitted themselves well, and others not. I do not know if there will be a lot of generalization. It strikes me that I would hope that future historians will look back at abortion the way historians today tend to look back at slavery, as something abhorrent. In so far as this generation has really pushed abortion in lots of ways, I think that would be certainly an indictment of this generation. We saw lots of positive as well. I suspect people looking back will see that we were very occupied with some bread, and lots of circuses. Hard to say. SM (02:17:05): I am going to end everything here, but if you would listen to what I have to say here, and did not just respond to it, it deals with the issue of poverty that you have talked about in several of your books. I am just going to read something I have written here, and your thoughts. "An activist is often defined as a person who believes in what is in it for us, not what is in it for me. As Dr. King used to often say, "It is about we, not me," so, activists should fit your definition of compassion." But, in "Compassionate Conservatism," you put political labels on a quality that both liberals and conservatives should have. I know you say compassionate conservatism, but maybe compassionate liberalism, too. We all want to end poverty, but when we have a society that oftentimes emphasizes what is in it for me, do you fear that our society cares more about personal survival over group survival? I conclude by saying, "In short, understanding our past is important, as you state in your books. But, we oftentimes accept that we will always have poor people. Is not this part of the problem? Why must we always indoctrinate our youth that there has always been poor people, and there always will. How about believing that one day, there will be no poor people?" Am I being realistic or utopian? When you talk about compassionate conservatism, I think it's very important to have it, but I also believe in compassionate liberalism, and something that crosses over to all of our society. I have always thought, as a young man who was in sociology classes in my early years, professors saying, "We always have poor people. History has always shown us we are going to pay poor people." Why cannot we believe one day there will not be any? That is part of compassion and conservatism, that everybody... I do not believe in handouts, either, but everybody will be able to live a productive life, and everybody will have a legacy. I believe we are brought onto this planet, because I am a deeply religious person, too, that if we are born on this planet, we all have a right to have a legacy on this planet. Just your final thoughts. MO (02:19:43): No, I agree. I think the critical few words you just said were, "I do not believe in handouts." Where programs go wrong is when they become handout programs, and that is been the problem with a lot of governmental programs. Not all, but a lot of them. You can actually make things worse in the process of wanting to make things better. I think we should aspire to a time when there's no poverty. There will be some people who are poor by choice. I do not think we have to force-feed people. There are going to be some people who believe, like Buddhist monks, it is good to be poor, and you will have that. As far as people who are working, who are striving, who are aspiring, I do not think any of them should be poor, and I do not think any of them have to be poor. This is a rich enough society where that should not be necessary at all. But if you start having handouts, then you're actually likely to have most of those people remain poor, and probably their children will grow up poor also, because their children will not see where it is to work. That is a problem. You can do great harm if you try to do good in an unwise way. I agree with you, we should certainly aspire to a society where there will not be any poor. SM (02:21:27): I remember during the Clinton Administration, when somebody was working at a McDonald's in one of the inner cities, I remember Bill Clinton had just given a great speech, and he is a pretty compassionate guy. Increasing jobs was part of it, but a lot of criticism that these are just not very good jobs, they did not pay a lot. I can remember one person saying, "Well, geez, I have been working at McDonald's, and now I can make a little bit more by going on welfare rather than going to work at McDonald's," that it would be about the same amount of money. MO (02:22:06): Yeah. SM (02:22:06): That is a terrible attitude to have, because that takes the work ethic out, and that means that is a handout. "I will not work because I do not have an incentive." MO (02:22:19): The government program that I am very comfortable with is EITC, earned income tax credit, and so forth, because that actually is designed to make working at McDonald's better than anything you're going to get from the government. You need something like that. The problem is, when you set up a program to try to help people who desperately need help, because we really do not want government officials to be sometimes arbitrarily deciding who gets help and who does not, we have to extend it across the board. The people then who do not really need the help, it actually leads them not to work. Governmental programs are a very blunt instrument. They're hard to do right, and we have seen them do wrong. That is my basic critique of them. Programs that are much more flexible tend to be much better, and we do not associate government bureaucracy with flexibility. SM (02:23:34): Do you think that most of these programs that are really hurting the poor have really come through the time that boomers have evolved as adults? MO (02:23:47): Yeah, they started in the (19)60s, and you cannot blame the boomer generation for that at that point, they were not in. Certainly the way it's continued, it is hard for someone whose needs have always been satisfied, and not more than needs, whose wants, whose desires have been satisfied, to say no to other people, even when it might be important to say no at times. I have had people who had poverty programs, church programs, who grew up poor themselves. They have a much easier time saying no than upper middle class folks, because they themselves have seen the destructiveness of what happens when you just start passing out stuff. You know this, this has been going on for a long time, but you have certainly helped me go down memory lane. SM (02:24:45): Thank you very much, I am done. I do not know if you have any final comments, but I think you have said it all. I truly appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to do this interview. MO (02:24:58): You are welcome. You say you type up these transcripts, or you have them typed up? SM (02:25:02): No, I am going to do them myself. Peter Golm and others, some other people who have written books, have had horror stories about people who have been transcribing for them. I am going to be transcribing all of them myself over a six-month period. Everybody will see their transcript, too, and when they see their transcript, it is the final "Okay" to be able to publish it within this book. MO (02:25:27): Oh, good. SM (02:25:27): I will be keeping in touch with you. I am going to come into New York sometime in early January to take your picture. I will just let you know that. I want to wish you happy holidays. MO (02:25:40): You too. This is a great project you are involved in, and I hope you are enjoying it. You sound like you are having fun with it. SM (02:25:46): I am. I am learning a lot, but I want to make sure that students learn from this as well. My whole life is devoted to students in higher ed, so I want to make sure I have a product that students can read, so that they can understand. You cannot live in the shoes of someone, but do not judge people by what other people say about them. Just listen to them, and learn. MO (02:26:10): Yeah. SM (02:26:11): Okay. MO (02:26:12): Okay, thanks. SM (02:26:13): Thanks. Have a great day. MO (02:26:15): Thank you. SM (02:26:15): Bye. (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Marvin Olasky Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Olasky, Marvin N. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Editors; Authors, American; College teachers; Patrick Henry College (Purcellville, Va.); Olasky, Marvin N.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Marvin Olasky is an editor, an author of more than 20 books and a distinguished chair in Journalism and Public Policy at Patrick Henry College. He received his Bachelor of Arts in American Studies from Yale University and his Ph.D. in American Culture from the University of Michigan. Olasky left his position of provost of the King's College to focus on his position of editor-in-chief of <em>WORLD Magazine</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource in copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.146a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.146b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 146:19 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20ec3be45fc53d0d2ff785fe01e0cc88.jpg 6c47375f4fda7b31a929aa9800f1ef16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c7f2cb01d77f0138c58a519cfd291ba.mp3 a8c06fef3b3a65bde52b261842f36bf6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Randy Shaw, 1956- Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Randy Shaw is an attorney, author and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, as well as the co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., and the editor of the newspaper, Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5039,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Randy Shaw is an attorney, author, and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, as well as the co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., and the editor of the newspaper, Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Affirmative action; Proposition 13; Activism; Activist Handbook; Illegal immigration; Baby boom generation; Tenure in the nineteen seventies; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:1,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0}}">Affirmative action; Proposition 13; Activism; Activist Handbook; Illegal immigration; Baby boom generation; Tenure in the nineteen seventies; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:07 Subject LCSH Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Shaw, Randy, 1956--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Randy Shaw Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shaw, Randy, 1956- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Shaw, Randy, 1956--Interviews Description An account of the resource Randy Shaw is an attorney, author and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., editor of Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.147 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 42:07 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6b8e953cd8ab71b180c38046ac7f2587.pdf ad28164658643915fdc1e0bb1d414ce0 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U N I V E R S I T X S T A T E   U N I V E R S I T Y   O F  N E W   Y O R K zldec ’ D E P A R T M E N T UNIVE RSITY PERCU SSION ENSEMBLE CO NCERT Daniel F abricius, Conductor Devan Tracy, Xylophone Soloist Tuesday evening, November 23, 201 0 8:00 PM Anderson Center Chamber Hall �PROGRAM University Percussion Ensemble Personnel Septet (1995)  M .Daniel Levitan a t Three Shades of “C” (1 996)....  r a Grm i   ............Stephen Primatic zoINTERMISSIONos Mercury Rising (2005)  Back Talk (1938)  Nathan Daughtrey «..u......Harry Breuer Arranged by Richard C. Gipson Devan Tracy, Xylophone Christmas! (in under 3 minutes). ........A rranged by Amanda Jacobs Sabre Dange; (1942).................................Aram  Khachaturian A rranged by James L. Moore John Erdman Amanda Jacobs Melissa Larson Mike McManamon Benjamin Ramos Rose Steenstra Devan Tracy Andrew Williamson DANIEL FABRICIUS, Lecturer of Music in Percussion. has been a member of the Binghamton  University  faculty  since  1992.  He  holds  degrees  from  Mansfield University and Ithaca College where he studied percussion  with Richard Talbot and Gordon Stout. In addition to his work at  BU, he has served as Director of Bands at Owcgo  Free  Academy  since  1989.  He  has  been  a member  of  the  Binghamton Philharmonic percussion  section  since  1982  but  is also comfortable performing  in popular, rock, jazz, and other styles.  He plays regularly on drums as a member of several musical organizations in the Southern Tier including his own band, Prism.  He has  also  played  often  as  a  free­lance  percussionist,  accompanying  national  touring artists such as Tommy Tune, Jerry Vail, Lorrie Morgan, Ringling Brothers Circus, the Smothers  Brothers, and Ella Fitzgerald.  He  is highly regarded  in the region as  a percussion  soloist  and  ensemble  player  and  has  collaborated  often  with  organist Jonathan Biggcrs and thc Ithaca Bra.  For many years Professor Fabricius has served the New York State School  Music Association as an All­State Percussion adjudicator. In addition he is the Instrumental Jazz Reviews editor of The School Music News and was the Jazz editor for the current NYSSMA Manual.  He serves on the faculty of the Binghamton  High  School  Percussion  Camp  each  summer  and  over  the  years  has presented many percussion clinics at state conventions and conferences.  In addition he often serves as  a guest  conductor  for honor band  festivals and has adjudicated Jazz Ensemble and Concert Band performances at music festivals throughout New York. DEVAN TRACY is a sophomore at  BU majoring in Mechanical Engineering with a Sustainable Engineering minor.  At  BU she is member of the Harpur Jazz Ensemble and the University Percussion Ensemble.  As a student at Saratoga Springs High School she  was a winner of the  Concerto Competition.  In high school Devan was also a member  of the  Empire  State  Youth  Orchestra and Percussion Ensemble.  She  was selected as an alternate Timpanist for the N Y Conference All­State.  Besides practicing various percussion instruments, Devan enjoys spending  free  time on other activities such  as  running,  bicycling,  climbing  mountains,  riding  motorcycles,  frisbcc,  yoga, bonfire sing­a­longs, architecture, photography, and baking. �Binghamton University M usic D epartment’s U P C O M I N G  E V E N T S M M t D ’ Wednesday, December 1 – Lecture/Recital with Jieun Jang, piano – 8 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Thursday, December 2 – Holiday Mid­Day Concert – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Thursday, December 2 – Harpur Chorale & Women’s Chorus – 8 p.m. – Trinity Memorial Church, Binghamton – free Friday, December 3 – Flute Studio and Flute  Chamber Concert – 10:30 a.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Friday, December 3 –­ Composer’s Concert (students of Christopher Loy) – 8 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Saturday, December 4 – University Symphony Orchestra : America’s Inner Life ­­ 3 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater – $10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students (Group rate $8 per person) Sunday, December 5 –­ Wind Symphony: Gathering of Angels ­­ 3 p.m. ­­ Anderson Center Chamber Hall – free Sunday, December 5 – Violin Recital : Janey Choi, violin, Michael Salmirs, piano and guest artist Rebecca Ansel, violin – 7:30 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – $10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; $ 2 students Thursday, December 9 – Jazz Mid­Day Conc ert with guest artist – 1:20 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater –  free (Co­sponsored by the Binghamton University Music Department and the Harpur J azz Project) Thursday, December 9 – Harpur Jazz Ensemble Concert with guest artist – 8 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater – $10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students (Co­sponsored by the Binghamton University Music Department and the Harpur J azz Project) Friday, December 10 – Singing Chinese Cla ss Recital – 8 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free For ticket information, please call the Anderson Center B o x  O ffice at 777­ARTS. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:30:00 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146099">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146099</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Percussion Ensemble Concert, November 23, 2010 Recital Tape 2010-11-23 Description An account of the resource Works by Levitan, Grimo, Primatic, Daughtrey, Breur, Khachataurian Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fabricius, Daniel Erdman, John Jacobs, Amanda McManamon, Mike Ramos, Benjamin Steenstra, Rose Tracy, Devan Williamson, Andrew Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Universal Viewer / Rosetta Rosetta audio media Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:01:12 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE147765">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE147765</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jieun Jangig Recital Prokofien, December 1, 2010 Recital Tape 2010-12-1 Description An account of the resource Works by Prokofiev, Serget Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jang, Jieun Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound