128
10
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d8592c14a2e914e39bd9769f9e505bb6.pdf
3386583196b211a7791f7b5210c58123
PDF Text
Text
Beethoven In his sixteenth year
by Becke r in Coblenz. 1833.
Guarneri StringQuartet
Harpur
Seas
eason 66-67
WinterSeries
�Wednesday, J a nuary 11 , 1967
8 :15 p.m. Coll ege Theate r
L . v. BEETHOVEN
QUARTET in G MAJOR, Op. 18, No. 2
All egro
Adagio Cantabi le
Sche r zo. All egro
Allegro molt o quasi Pr esto
Q UARTET
in
F MAJOR, Op. 59, No. 1
Allegro
All egre tto vivace e sempr e Scherzando
Adagio molt o e mesto
Theme Russe. Allegro
intermission
QUARTET in A MI NO R, Op. 132
Assai Sostenuto - Allegro
All egro ma non tanto
Molto adagio
Hei l ige r Da11kgesa11g eines Genesenen
a11 die Gottheit, in der lydischen
Tonart
All a marcia, assai vivace : All egro ap passionato
A RECEPTION honoring the Quartet will be
held in the Faculty Lou11ge adjacent to the
theater following this evening's recital.
The
audience i s most cordially invited to atte11d.
�Notes
by William
Klenz
T
he quartet , Op. 18 No. 2 bears the nickname, "Comphment Quartet"
because of the florid, elegant
nature of its openmg ph r ases which set t he tone
for t he entire first movement . However the material is not
empty flattery, but rich in patt erns and moti ves which receive a searching analysis and r esynthes i s in the course of
the movement.
Juxtaposition, mutual modification, interaction are the devices which make the wor k a reflection of
the natural worl d and the Force behind it. Th ese are carried
out at obvious, overt levels, and at recon dite, arcane depths
whence they operate directly upon the subconscious which
senses the •rightness• and precision of things for whi ch the
"small-change counting" consciousness has no recogniti on
o r epi stemological terms.
The qua r tet 1s all of a piece . The Adagio has many
themati c and motivic references to the first move ment It also contains a surprise, a mini ature Sonata Allegro
tucked between its two broad state ments which are themselves a Lied form and its variation. The Scherzo continues
the atmosphere of elegance and wit while the very l:l aydn like finale develops a motive fi r st presented (f) at bar 20 of
the first movement.
TT he th r ee quartets Op. 59 are k nown as the "Rasoumousky" quartets, being so called for the patron and dedica tee who brought them into being. He was • sou Excellence
M ons i er l e Comte de Rasoumoffsky Conseiller prive actuel
de l a Majeste' L'Empereur De T out es les Ru ss1es .. . • the
Russian ambassador at Vienna.
With th ese quartets we move into Beethoven's "middle"
period marked by mastery and conscious innovation. New
ki nds of the matic mate r ial are evolved and new methods of
devel opment and expansion. Just how new is shown by the
story of Romberg, the 'ceHist, and this quartet. Certainly
there is no greater joy for a 'cellist than to deli ver the b r oad
gratefull y written opening t heme of t his first movement.
Y et, Romberg (whose own cliche-ridden
musi c is of a legendary platitudinousness) is c l aimed to have trampled the
score on the floor, saying, "who can pl ay such rubbish?"
(He did pl ay, however, othe r concerts with Beethoven.) A
small statistic will show the difference in scope. The first
m ovement of Op. 18, No. 16 consists of 264 bars (excl usive
of repeats) played at a rate of 80 bars to the minute (c. 3.3
min.). The first movement of Op. 59, No. 1, consists of 400
bars played at a r ateof40-45barsto the mlnute (c. JOmin.)
�Th e density and integr ationisoft heor der achieved by Haydn
in hi s mos t advanced manner and "inherited"
by Beethoven.
The Scherzo was at fi r st considered the work of a madm an . Again, the ' ce llo starts, all alone, with an empt y
rh ythm -see mingl y c hildish, but actuall y of g r eat vi tality.
(It seem s that this i s t he movement t hat precipitated Rom ber g's ire.) I t is a m ovemen t that could have been wri tt en
by no one el se; t he project ion of the materi als of a scherzo
int o a sonat a fo rm .
The s low move ment-•ver y s low and s ad " is one of th e
m os t pe r f ect thi ngs in Beethoven, it must have cost him muc h
labor-the r e i s ce r tainly nothing except Bee thov en' s own
w o r k to co m pare wi th it fo r refinement of c r aft , deep senti m ent and hones t i ntention to communi cate .
T he fi nale commemo r ate s Rasoumousky's o r i gin wi th
a brilli ant, witt y finale on a Russi an · folk tune taken fro m
th e coll ecti on m ad e by I. Prats ch . I t , like all the ot her move m ents , i s i n sonata form, and the quartet as a who l e r epres e nts t he triumph of the power of musi c al or gani za t ion
offe r ed by the Sonata .
The Quartet Op. 132 in A Minor was wr itten i n 1825 and
is t he second of the set of th r ee commissioned b y Prince
Galit zin . Sket ches for t he first and l ast movements appear
al read y in 1824 and the working out was begun at once afte r
t he compl etion of the Quartet i n Eflat , Op . 127, in Febr uar y
o f 1825 wa s i nte r r upted for sever al wee k s by t he severe ill ness whi ch ove r took Beethoven that Spr1ng . This circu m stance, we wi ll see, cont ributes to t he content of the work.
Its co mposition was r esumed in M ar c h and fin i shed tow ard
the end of Jul y . The fi r st movementbegmswi th an enigma ti c
"cabbalistic"
phr ase, a secr et symbol whi ch has t he cha r a ct er of a m yst erious introduct ion - "akey.• !t is that , but
m o r e besides, for in reality i t is t he co mpl ement ar y counter point to the wi nged phrase whi ch i s "released" i n the high
r egis te r of the 'cello after the fl eet pas sage of the fir st violi n.
B ee thoven in fact combines the cu mul ati ve effect of introduction w11h the function of exposition, !o r t hese cont rasting
yet mat chi ng halves con st it ute t he first gr oup of thema t ic
e l em ents whose i nt roduction i s the "plot" of t he movement .
T hey ar e neve 1· l ong absent, In spite of the int r oducti on of
cont r asti ng material.
The fi nal pages of the move ment are
not abl e for their sonor i t y, and eloquent r educti on t o convincing c l ar i t y or the original •c r yptogram. "
The scherzo m ovement se t s asi de jovial hil arit y and
dynam ism fo r det ailed, el egant , witt y counter point. Its trio
exploits the same peasant- i nst r u ment eff ect s (hurdy- gu r dy)
w hich we r e i n the original m ovement desi gned for thi s pl ace
Continued on back page
�State University of New York at Binghamton
H ARPUR COLLEGE
The Department of Mus ic prese nts
THE GUARNERI STRING QUARTET (in residence)
Arnold Stein hardt
violi n
John Dalley
vio lin
R EC IT A L S
f
O
Michael Tree
viola
David Soye r
cello
SEAS O N 1 96 6-67
SUMMER SERIES
W IN T ER SERIES
SPRI NG SERI ES
Sunday , July 10
Sunday, November 6
Sunday , Marc h 12
Sunday, Jul y 24
Sunday, August 7
Tuesday, Decembe r 13
Wednesday, J anuary 4
Saturday, Mar c h 18
Sunday, April 2
Wednesday, J anua ry 11
Sunday, February 12
Sunday, Aprll 30
Satu r day, May 6
Sunday, August 14
Sunday, September 11
Sunday , October 9
All performances at 8:15 p.m. In the Harpur College Theater.
Late comers will be seated after the first quartet,
Ushering c our tesy of Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma.
February
11 at 3:00 p.m. in C.A. 183
NOTES (Continued)
but whi ch was moved to the Alla danza tcdesca or Op. 130. Here the effect is even
m o re overt and col orful.
The third move ment ref ers di r ectly t o Beethoven' s illness in 1825. It was l abelled by Beethoven originally in French "Chant De reconnaissanc e, en style l ydique,
offert a l a Divinite, par un convalescent." It is in Lied form, st r ophic , with three
va ri ed strophes and two intervening, cont rasting, refrains. The Lydian mode is a
scale F-F , with B natural instead or B flat. The effect is a curious one, a kind or
enforced inactivity (which it indeed desc ribes). The refr ains (in normal D major)
are l abelled also Neue Kraft fühlend (feeling of new strength). The l ast strophe
l abe lled "with most intimate sentiment• varie s the original in such a wa y as t o provide subtle and curious links to the materials of the first move ment. The comparison t o the equall y autobiogr aphical s l ow movement or the piano Sonat a Op. 110 (which
al so conce rns itself with an illness and conval escence) is inescapabl e.
The Finale begins Alla Marcia - the march serves as fanfare introduction-invoc ation (an el ement, it will be observed that is absent fro m its proper pl ace, the opening of the fi r st m ovement) . lt i s connected by a passage or recitativo dec l amation
(Violin I) , reminiscent of the Ninth Symphony, to the finale prope r , a Rondo or Dio nysian abandon.
Program design by William Mihalko
J
f
�
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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3 sound tape reels
Duration
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23:10
40:12
19:35
27:32
OHMS Object
URL
https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE60285
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE60285"> Winter Series Recital</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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Winter Series Recital, January 11, 1967
Subject
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Concerts
Instrumental music
Live sound recordings
Description
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Beethoven quartets. Held at 8:15 pm, Jan. 11, 1967, Harpur College Theater.
Creator
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Guarneri Quartet
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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1967-01-11
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This digital recording may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Binghamton University Music Department tape recordings, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton
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Beethoven, Ludwig van, 1770-1827
State University of New York at Binghamton. Department of Music.
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sound
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Winter Series Recital 1967-1-11.pdf
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e477e03be319d57a7cabc19c63c2ef16.mp3
48e4bf7ae48778b7ad6bdb6c712f092d
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-06-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jacobs, Ron
Duration
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02:08:11
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Rock and Roll, 60's music, Vietnam War, Anti-war protests, Germany, Freedom of Speech Movement, Political activism, Music influence on politics.
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975;
Peace movements—United States--20th century;
Jacobs, Ron--Interviews
Biographical Text
Ron Jacobs is a writer and activist. He attended his first protest against the Vietnam war in 1969. Jacob is the author of The Way the Wind Blew: A History of the Weather Underground and a trilogy of novels called The Seventies Series. He has a Bachelor's degree from Evergreen State College. Jacob currently writes for Counterpunch magazine. He continues his activism against war, racism, and capitalism.
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ron Jacobs
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 4 June 2019
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:00
Let us start, so are you ready?
RJ: 00:01
I am ready.
SM: 00:02
Okay. Very good. First off, thank you very much for doing this. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? You can use words or adjectives, and why do you pick these adjectives? So, what, when you think of those two periods, what do you think of?
RJ: 00:24
The first thing I think of is, is anti-war. And it is just because I was, that was pretty important in my life, being against the war and so on, and a lot of my friends was. And I think the other thing, I think, of is probably rock music, rock concerts just because they seem to me they kind of symbolize great, they symbolize like a certain kind of mentality where there is a lot of freedoms that did not exist before, and probably do not exist as much now, but still, you know, in the same manner.
SM:
01:04 You know, you make a good point here, because when you talk about the music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, when you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, you think of the background music, which is the music, but it was much more than background, it was actually at the forefront, because- could you talk about the music a little bit more detail like what your favorite groups were and why? And secondly, the messages that were often in the music is something that I do not see today, but there were very clear messages in a lot of that music.
RJ: 01:36
Yeah. My favorite bands were Bob Dylan, the Beatles, The Stones and the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater. And I think I liked, I could not really tell you why I like the Beatles, mostly because they kind of reflected and led like the whole, to me anyhow, what it meant to be a hippie counterculture kind of person. You know, they gradually went into- they grad- they started off as just mop tops, and eventually started being spokespeople and reflections of the, of the greater counterculture movement [phone rings] that was going up around them among regular people [clatter]. The Rolling Stones, I think, mostly because what I think of is (19)68 Street Fighting Man and, and their songs about revolution. Because even if they were not revolutionaries, they did, their music riled up people and also going back to the message, the message was, you know, well, for example, say Street Fighting Man, you know, the message was that there was nothing else to do, the only way we were going to be able to move ahead is if we if we get out, is if we join a rock and roll band, but the rock and roll band in itself is a revolutionary statement. And Grateful Dead, I think the Grateful Dead to me just represented a place where if everything worked out okay, and the counterculture dreams, worked out, worked out the way they were supposed to everything, it was the world that we could be living in in another 10 years or something. I mean, obviously, it did work out. But that was kind of what in my teenage mind, that was kind of how I saw it and stuff. Bob Dylan, it is really hard to say, but because he was so much, I mean, it was when I first discovered him was probably in (19)68, when I was 13 and I heard Like a Rolling Stone. And, and then from there, I just got into his music because it was his voice was so unusual. And I liked the whole image that he presented on the wandering vagabond, the Woody Guthrie kind of guy, the, you know, I liked his cynicism. But at the same time, it was tinged with some kind of like hope. And then as he went on, I think what really sold me more than anything else was when he did the Rolling Thunder Revue in the mid (19)70s, which where he tried to revive, you know, the whole [inaudible] he did around Hurricane Carter, and his-his constant advocacy for African Americans and the working people and so on, even in his songs that were not overtly political, he was advocating for them. You know what he would do the biography songs. I will say, The Ballad of Hollis Brown, or William Zanzinger. And you know, some of the, and he did the song on George Jackson. And George Jackson was important to me, because I was a at the time I was hanging out with Black Panthers over in Germany. And so, you know, as a friend, and so they will you we read a lot about that. Creedence Clearwater as a [inaudible] since my father was in the military, that song Fortunate Son was really crucial to me where he attacks, "I am not no military son," and he was just attacking the whole war machine and the mentality of us making money off of war. And that kind of tied in with the country Joe song, "What are we fighting for, 1234, what are we fighting for?" Yeah.
SM: 03:30
Wow. When you talk about the music again of that era, you talk about sometimes the music even defines the year, let alone a specific event. And you were talking about (19)69, this is the 50th anniversary of Woodstock this year. And then of course, it was, I think it was (19)67 was the Summer of Love. And they are all defined by music. And even in the early (19)70s, when you think of the music change, George Harrison's music for Bangladesh, which is one of the first concerts to raise funds for a tragedy that was happening around the world, it was amazing how music brings people together for so many reasons. Just your thoughts on those three events.
RJ: 05:55
Yeah, the Summer of Love, I was just a kid, you know, I was like in junior high school. It fascinated me and the son- I think the song, the album that some of the albums that will always be identified for me are, is Sergeant Pepper's since that came out like that year at the beginning of June (19)67. (19)69, I mean, that was kind of the year when I really started getting into listening to a lot of albums and moving past the (19)45s, you know, into and when you think of a lot of the songs that came out, a lot of the albums that came out that year, it is kind of interesting. And then you toss in those two keynote events, at least according to the media, Woodstock and Altamont. You know, Woodstock still, it is, it is this, you know, it is this thing that everybody knows about. I can think of, I have nieces and nephews who are in their 20s now, but I am probably back in 19-, it must have been around (19)99 when they were like, you know, when they were babies, or three or four years old. And they had heard my older sister and I some of our friends and some of our siblings talk about Woodstock. They-they knew what it was, it was part of their consciousness in terms of like, oh, yeah, what I guess went on people got together, had a good time and loved each other and listened to music, you know. I mean, that is, that is the watered-down version. But that is what people think of when they think of Woodstock. And then Altamont is always, even if it was not the end of the counterculture which I do not think it was, it has this, it has all that darkness around it. You know, and you know, the concert for Bangladesh, I was living in Germany at the time, because my dad was in the military. And so I was, I think, a junior in high school, and when the movie hit over in Germany, and I had been reading about the concert, because on the military base where the high school that I went to was, there was a base library, and it got the Village Voice, and it got Rolling Stone magazine, and the GI who was the head librarian, him and I were friends so he would always make sure that I, he would set them aside for me so I could read them before he put them on the shelf. And I remember all the, reading all the articles in the wake of the Bangladesh concert. So, when the movie finally came out, I remember skipping school and I went to this movie theater downtown that showed movies in German and then sometimes they would have English subtitles. But it did not matter for that since that was a concert movie, it did not really matter. But I remember sitting there and watching it go through like three times just because I could not get enough of watching the music and just the combination of those musicians and kind of kind of trying to put myself there just which is what the Woodstock movie did really well, too. I mean, the Woodstock movie universalized the Woodstock experience, even if it was just a way for Warner Brothers to make money. It also kind of spread the whole Woodstock idea around the world.
SM: 07:33
Yes. Is there is there again, you have mentioned some events that really kind of impacted your early life. But is there one particular event and when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that stands out for you more than any other? And I say that, do you think that stands out for the generation that you are part of? And secondly, can you remember a personal event or experience where that really impacted you during that whole period?
RJ: 09:24
I do not know if I can remember just one. I think Woodstock is a key event. But I also think maybe more on the political side was either the moratorium in (19)69, or maybe even more so the Kent State, when Kent State happened.
SM: 09:45
Oh, yeah.
RJ: 09:46
And Kent State to me, I was in, I was a freshman in high school, and we walked out, you know, we walked out of classes and everything. This is over in Germany on a military base, but there were so many people, it just affected people in such a, in that kind of way. Personally, it would probably be Kent State, you know, and the aftermath of Kent State that that made the biggest impact on I think it really convinced me that no matter what I thought things were, there was, I could not trust the authorities.
SM: 10:24
Right. I think it is interesting, Ron, you mentioned that because that is the event that shaped my life in terms of when I was at the school Binghamton. I graduated, [crosstalk] I graduated in (19)70. And, and I went into higher education as a career because of what happened at Kent State. Because it was the epitome of what we saw for quite a while were students, and were not talking to faculty and students were, you know, some of the administration are in very bad relationships. And so I went into it to see if I can do it my small role in changing that. And, and so, you know, that is a very important event in my life. And that was when I was a senior in college.
RJ: 11:06
Interesting, yeah.
SM: 11:07
I wanted to ask you this question, too, and it gets real- what you hear today in the news many times is when we go back to the (19)60s, the culture wars that we are seeing today in our society, in (20)19, are definitely going back to that era, the (19)60s, they say. Do you still see divisions in the (19)60s in today's society? Some, some call it the ongoing culture wars. I would just like your thoughts on that.
RJ: 11:33
I do think there is divisions, but I do not think they are divided in the same- the divisions are not the same as they were before if you know what I-I mean, a lot of times back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, it was always presented as generational, you know, and, and now I am not so sure. Because there is people like us, who it is generational, but in a different way. I mean, I know people like in their 60s and older, tend to be more conservative, even now that I just think because back when we were younger, there were more conservative people, they just went about their business. But I think I think that the key division that still exists, is ones having to do with women and their rights. And I think we are seeing it down south and all the all the recent abortion law laws that are going back to almost as bad as it was before Roe vs. Wade, in terms of restricting women's right to choose, and so on. And I also see behind that I see a basically a misogyny, a system of systemic misogyny that it is certain that some people cannot let go. And of course, you know, given who we have in office right now, who is obviously president who is obviously a misogynist in his own foolish way. You know, there is people who are a lot meaner, a lot, a lot more sharper and meaner than he is, and more political than he is, who are taking us to the next level which are these laws and these attacks on women. I do not know; the other stuff is harder to tell. I do not know if the racial divide is as big as it was. I think it is still there. But I think that with the exception of a small number of racists, I think individual racism: has almost gone. I mean, it is, it is more overt now than it was, you know, say under Barack Obama, or even George Bush or Bill Clinton. But that is because of the nature of once again, who's in power.
SM: 13:37
Right.
RJ: 13:37
But I, in terms of a lot of the generational stuff. I do not know that it is that big a deal. I mean, I just got finished teaching at a, working at a college last year. And now I just semi-retired, and got a part time job down at the local public library. And I was working with a lot of college kid well, obviously, working, I worked at the library, so I interact with a lot of college students. And I would say the biggest thing now is with a lot of the college- and this was a liberal arts Catholic school, in general, small like about 2000 students- I would say, in general, the overall politics are liberal. And so, and this is in Vermont, so that might have something to do with it. Overall, the and the social, the cultural stuff is nothing, I mean if they do not if they do not smoke pot, they do not care that it is legal. You know, they are they do not care about the gender identity stuff. They do not care about trans. They do not care about gay, straight, any of that stuff. So, I think a lot of those things, at least maybe in the generation coming up now like say 35 and under. I do not think that stuff is there at all, hardly, you know. But I would say there is still some strong divisions and like I said, I think the biggest one is around the rights of women.
SM: 14:53
Right. Very good point. Could you discuss a little bit of your background where you grew up, your relationship with your parents, experiences that shaped you when you were very young politically or socially or, and-and the any school experiences that you might have had?
RJ: 15:12
Sure. Well, I grew up, I was born in (19)55. My father was in the military when I was born. He had graduated from college the year before, he had gotten into ROTC so he would not be drafted into the Korean War. And then they decided, he decided, him and my mother decided that he was going to make a career out of the military. He was an officer, he, he went into what they call security service, which is basically gathering intelligence. He worked with NSA. He was he was one of the original officers at the founding of the National Security Agency in the late (19)50s. And so, we traveled around the world we got, we ended up we were stationed, after a few years of going from Texas to Alaska, back to Texas and so on, we ended up in Maryland, outside of Washington, DC in (19)60- (19)59 or (19)60. And then we went to Pakistan, because the military had a spy base there with-with satellites. And this also they used the joint- they shared an airport with the Pakistani military and the-the Pak- and the Pakistani civilian people that they used to use to fly U2 planes over the Soviet Union. In fact, it was where it was the base, where the U2 plane that Gary Powers was flying that got shot down, it was where it was launched. But they-they were not doing U2 planes anymore, because then by then they had better radar-radar technology. And so, it was a small base, we were there for two years. While I was there, there was a war between India and Pakistan. And so, they evacuated all the women and children from the base. We went to Turkey and spent three months on an airbase there. And this was right around the same time as they were starting to move all the US dependents out of Vietnam, because Vietnam was starting to really heat up, (19)65, fall of, fall of (19)65. And then we went back to the States, and we lived in Maryland for, my father every time he was stationed in a state where I was living with him, it was always- after he moved to Maryland the first time- it was always back to Maryland, because that is where his work was. And then we went to, then he went to Vietnam in (19)68, when I was 13. And he came back when I was 14. And over that cour- I was starting, I was against the war before he left, like I was, I campaigned for [inaudible] Bobby Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy. I would just pass it out, you know, pass out literature and–
SM: 17:37
Right.
RJ: 17:38
-knock knocking on doors with the local Democratic precinct chair Catherine because she lived right up the street from us. And she was a family friend. My father was always a Republican, he always voted for Nixon, my mother was always a Democrat. We come from a big family, there is a total of 12 kids in our family.
SM: 17:57
Wow. [laughs]
RJ: 17:58
I am the second oldest, I have a sister who is a year older than me, and my sister and I shared a very similar trajectory in terms of our politics, our interests and stuff. I was probably a little more fringe than she was because it was easier for me to be being a white guy, and white male, I would could get away with more and so on, you know, especially back in the (19)60s, early (19)70s. And then when we-we got, my dad came back from Vietnam in (19)69. And I had been really following a lot, you know I would go to the antiwar protests in our hometown that were put on by some of the college students from University of Maryland, which was about eight miles from [inaudible]. And they were they were [inaudible] this is during the moratorium they were [inaudible] protests, we stood and we read out the names of the war dead and had peace signs and stuff you know, but you know, people drove by and threw stuff at us, you know, because it was a pretty redneck town, a pretty military town. And then we moved to- my dad got stationed to Frankfurt, Germany- and we moved there in March (19)70. And right when the Beatles Let it Be song was released, I remember listening to it in the, in the military airport before we took off to go to Germany. And so, I went to high school, I finished up my ninth grade and finished up high school out of milit- at a high school on a military base in Frankfort. It was a big high school, it is great high school, a lot of liberal teachers. And I think part of it was because a lot of the teachers wanted those jobs because then they could live in Europe and go skiing and visit you know all these different places. So, when I was over there, there was a bunch of rebels in the high school, and we worked together with them. Some anti-war GIS and stuff, we put out and we distribute an underground newspaper and I went to a lot of protests, and we worked with some Black Panthers and stuff. We help we help publicize when Angela Davis was arrested and in jail, her sister did a tour to raise funds to free Angela Davis. And they came to Frankfort and so we-we helped publicize that on base with some, you know, leaving leaflets and talking to different GIS and, and students and so on. And then when I came back to the, I graduated (19)73 came back to the States. And basically, I got involved. I went to Fordham University for a year and got involved there, just kind of there. First, I was just doing the impeachment stuff because that is when the impeaching Nixon thing was just getting warm. It was right, I was there the fall when the Saturday Night Massacre happened with when he fired all Archibald Cox and stuff.
SM: 20:42
Right.
RJ: 20:43
And then also, the coup against Chile happened. So, I was living in New York City so I was able to go to protests, it was kind of something that I wanted to do. Then I left there and went to University of Maryland for a while. And then I dropped out and just kind of worked and went to California. And was kind of worked when I felt like it living, hitchhiking around, living on the streets going to festivals. I was I was somewhat politically involved. You know and I sold pot, stuff like that, you know, just kind of living that kind of.
SM: 21:17
Did you ever live in a commune?
RJ: 21:20
Not really, I mostly just live with, like, most of the places I live in were kind of [inaudible] people I had good friends in the hog farm and I would crash at their house. But I never, I never wanted to join anything because I really did not want to usually because most of them you had to follow certain rules. And I did not want to commit myself to anything–
SM: 21:39
Right.
RJ: 21:39
-at the time. So, I was just kind of like an independent operator if you want to use a funny term or something, you know.
SM: 21:46
What is amazing about on the West Coast and then San, San Francisco area, the diggers are the big group out there. Yeah, and kind of [crosstalk] On the streets, and then they went, then when everything happened they all went off into the commune life.
RJ: 22:00
Yeah, and they, their-their, their reach is pretty far and wide. Down into Kizzy, the people that were connected to Kizzy with [inaudible] Kizzy and the Grateful Dead, because a lot of them ended up, you know, they ended up starting a hog farm, they ended up starting these other communes up north in Northern California. Peter Coyote was a digger. You know, he became a famous movie star and actor and stuff. And then there was some other guys who came back East. Some of them ended up joining up with the yippies, Abbie Hoffman, and those guys, even and you know, there was always kind of a running joke between the yippies and the diggers is that the diggers invented a lot of the stuff that the yippies made popular and sold to the world. And it is kind of true, the Free Store, and the free meals and all that kind of stuff, and how to, you know, drop the, you know, get free phone calls, all that kind of stuff. The diggers talked about it and did it but they did not write books about it. Whereas I would kind of argue that it was because the yippies were an East Coast phenomenon, you kind of did things differently on the East Coast because it was more populated, less, more impersonal as well.
SM: 23:13
Yeah, of course. The yippies had a pig for President. So [laughs]
RJ: 23:16
Right.
SM: 23:19
Pigasus. Pigasus the pig.
RJ: 23:21
Pigasus. Yeah-yeah.
SM: 23:22
When you think of the (19)60s- now, again, I am going to ask you, what do you think is the (19)60s. I have had many people say what they felt the (19)60s was, I have had people say, well, it was two parts. It was the part and the first three years when Ken- then Kennedy was assassinated, then you had the second part of the (19)60s which went through to the mid (19)70s. Then there is some that say the (19)60s should be (19)60 and (19)70, quit talking about all this (19)70s stuff. What-what, what defines the-the years for the (19)60s to you?
RJ: 23:58
I like to think of it in terms of the long (19)60s, when I think in France and in Germany, and a couple other European countries and basically what defines it is this: raised consciousness and spirit that was, that was infused with lot of hope that people could change the world and actually make it into a place where everybody had, truly had equal chances, because everybody had their basic things taken care of like food, education, health care, housing, that was all there. For, that was what everybody could afford that and then they could actually work on living, living out their dreams and, and, and kind of moving beyond the individualist, individualistic rat race that (19)50s kind of brought on you know, the-the prosperity. But at the same time, there was another part of it which was the forces of reaction, which basically took over in the late, well they Nixon, Nixon was the first one of those. But I honestly think that that really became popular under Ronald Reagan. And the forces of reaction, which kind of, it never wanted to see that hope that the (19)60s represented come to fruition, and are still trying to turn it back, which is, you know, even little symbols of it like Obama or something, how some people just still cannot even deal with that, you know, or women's right to choose who, who that what they are going to do and so on. But I think overall, that the (19)60s were, were a positive thing. And I think they moved the world, Western, I think the entire world but that definitely the United States and the rest of the Western world, I think, and probably the Soviet Union, too, but they move people forward in terms of learning that it was okay, that learning that you should not judge people, by the way they look, I think that was probably one of the key things, whether it was long hair, or whether were skin color, or whether it was like, you know, man, woman, age, whatever, fat, skinny, whatever, you know–
SM: 26:16
Would you say that, if you were to put a point where the (19)60s started, it is when the election of John Kennedy, because of the fact of his speech, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?" And of course, we all know about the Peace Corps and VISTA. And you know, the people that did go into the service, you know, that whole feeling of giving back. And of course, then we lost him. And-and then, you know, some people are always saying, "When did the (19)60s end?" And some people say it has never ended, really, but-but some people think that the (19)60s ended when the helicopter went off the American Embassy in, in Saigon in on April 30, of (19)75. And that was really a very symbolic thing. And then others say that in the fall of (19)73, you saw a big difference on college campuses, because there were still protests through (19)72. And when streaking started on college campuses, if you remember that and fall of (19)73, streaking was [crosstalk]–
RJ: 27:24
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 27:24
-and no one was, activism seemed to die. It is like, it is the campus has totally changed. I just want your, what is your feelings are about, you know, Kennedy, streaking, the-the end of the Vietnam War, and we lost the war, your thoughts?
RJ: 27:41
I would say the Kennedy thing is probably sometime in the campaign is probably a good pinpoint. But also one could argue that the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which took place a couple years earlier was-
SM: 27:59
Ah, (19)57. Yep.
RJ: 27:59
-was the seed, that was the seeds of the (19)60s because it was the first time that there was that kind of mass organization to change an obviously very unjust law. And Kennedy, whether he was a great hero, or whether he was not a great hero, he represented a lot of hope to a lot of people across the board, and I would argue so that Bobby Kennedy. If I were to say sometime [inaudible] I guess (19)73 in the fall was the year that I started college, at Fordham. And there was still a fair amount of activism, but it certainly was not anything like it was two years previous. And there was a lot of streaking going on-on the campus that I was on. But I think a lot of the activism had moved out into the streets and off campus by then because a lot of the people who were the primary activists, had graduated or left after you know graduated like around your time, or the year after.
SM: 28:59
Yes.
RJ: 29:00
(19)70, (19)71.
SM: 29:01
Yep.
RJ: 29:02
And I also think Kent State scared a lot of people away.
SM: 29:05
Yep.
RJ: 29:06
Because they saw how serious the authorities would get if, if things got if things got more out of hand than they already were in their mind. It is I can see why people would say the April 30 (19)75 was the end because Vietnam was such a defining- I mean, it was the key reason for so much of the protests. And it was kind of like, what brought a lot of these different strains of protest together because it was the war that was causing the economic situation. It was the war, the structure of the draft was racist, that people who are dying at the highest rate were African American and Latino immigrants and so on, so I can see that it was also taking away a lot of young men.
SM: 29:51
Right.
RJ: 29:53
But then there is another possibility that it was Jimmy Carter's election because even though he was a big change from Nixon and Ford. It was a different kind of, he was trying to- remember what the he had the amnesty?
SM: 30:06
Oh, yes.
RJ: 30:07
For the draft resistors?
SM: 30:08
Oh, yes, yes.
RJ: 30:08
And I think he was trying to put that all to bed. And what he, what he brought in, a lot of people do not think, are just starting to talk about this in the last five or six years, is that he brought in the idea that the government that [inaudible], the idea that the government should provide medical care, the idea that the government should help people get on their feet with welfare and stuff like that. And he started saying that, and that he started the actual downsizing of the government and privatizing a bunch of the government that Reagan carried out to a great extent, and has continued ever since. So, so it is, but symbolically, I think it would be the end of the Vietnam War. You know, because that that was so crucial, and that just meant so many people felt relieved when they knew that that was finally over, you know.
SM: 31:02
Those are excellent observations. I appreciate what you just said. Very well thought out. What, we have, you already mentioned the whole issue of the spirit. I remember in some, many of the people that I have interviewed, one of them, in fact, was Richie Havens before he passed away. I did a phone interview, and I am trying to get his family to "okay" the interview, it is hard to get a hold of them. But there were several people that talked about this issue of spirit. Could you define the spirit of the 60s on and how would you define the spirit? What made it happen? And is it based on age and now I say age, because a lot of my interviews are on the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and (19)64. But the front edge boomers are those born between (19)46 and say, (19)57. And they were involved in the activism and the protests because the others were kind of young-
RJ: 31:52
Right-right.
SM: 31:53
-during that. So oftentimes, we talk about this spirit in terms of age, but Richie corrected that with me. Richie said, I am a boomer and I was born in (19)41. And so, and it brought up a whole issue because most of the major activists were born in (19)39 to (19)45. [laughs]
RJ: 32:13
Yeah. Timothy Leary was born in the early (19)30s.
SM: 32:15
Yeah. So yeah-yeah, yeah. So- And Dave Dellinger was another one that was older.
RJ: 32:19
Right, oh yeah. He was a lot older.
SM: 32:21
Yeah.
RJ: 32:23
Yeah. And Bob Dylan was born in (19)41. You know, so yeah. So, I do not think age has, I think age had a lot to do with it in terms of who the bulk of the (19)60s spirit hit. But, but as always, it was a lot of the was our, you know, what they call it nowadays, they call them elders, who kind of showed the way. And some of them joined in 100 percent. And some of them just kind of apprec- say, someone like William Burroughs the Beat writer who never really had any use for hippies, you know that he appreciated the fact that his writings are so popular among them, and that he influenced so many people like. I mean, he influenced Bob Dylan, he influenced a lot of- Jim Morrison, he influenced Patti Smith. So, he influenced a lot of musicians and poets to in the way they express themselves. And the dark places or the light places that they went because he had gone there, he had kind of opened the door to those places. The spirit, I think, was mostly I still think it is hard to define, but I think it was basically one that was of a revolutionary hope. And I do not mean revolution, just in political terms. I mean, in like, in the fact that things were going to change 180 degrees, and they were going to be a lot better. And some people did it, some people just wanted to do it by changing their lifestyle like joining communes or hitchhiking around. Other people wanted to do it by become- you know, joining a new religion or finding themselves through yoga and the Maharishi or even Christianity, whatever. And then a lot of people wanted to do it, you know, and then as brought through political change and social change, other people did it. Like if you think about it in the early (19)70s, when, say, David Bowie, Lou Reed, and even Mick Jagger and stuff started doing some of the cross-gender stuff. And that, you know, that was a big following. I think it was bigger in Britain than it was in the States, given the differences in the cultures in relation to that kind of stuff back then. But I think that a lot of people were like, well we cannot, maybe we cannot change the world, but we can definitely change who we are. And that way maybe that will help make the world a better place, a more tolerant place or whatever, you know, and even if that is not an intentional thought, it is kind of like part of the zeitgeist of that whole desire to change and to express oneself in terms of-
SM: 32:26
Right. You are really you are, again, a tremendous analysis. As a personal person who was in that era, and I cannot even explain it, it was just a good feeling. I, you know, it is not an arrogance, it is not being arrogant. It is just a good feeling if I am riding on a bus, and I am a college student, or I am wearing my college sweatshirt, back in the (19)60s and (10)70s, wherever, when I went to undergrad and grad, it was just a feeling it was a different time I and there was a lot of trouble, you know, the protests that divisions in America, between Black and white and women and men, and in the gay movement, everything, there so many issues. However, there was a just a feeling that it was a good time to live in. And it was something to do with the spirit of the times that I never saw as a little boy in the (9)50s. And I have never seen since in my life. I do not know if you felt that way. Still there. Ron, still there?
RJ: 36:10
Yeah.
SM: 36:11
Oh, okay. You okay?
RJ: 36:13
Yeah, [inaudible] hear.
SM: 36:14
Okay. Any obser- anything to say on that?
RJ: 36:18
Yes. I agree with you that I have not seen it since. And I can say, as someone who is coming in you know, that many years younger than you like six or seven, I guess. That as a teenager, you had this feeling like you were going to go, you know, once you got into like high school, you were going to be part of this huge thing. And I mean, I honestly felt like I was part of this huge thing and that anything was possible. And some of that is just being young. But I also think part of it was just kind of the fact that maybe it was because there was such a critical mass of young people who are all and-and we all kind of we are think- our media was not so diverse, that we were all listening to a lot of the same records. And, you know, reading the same newspapers, and, you know, and then also there was really good communication through like the different underground newspapers, and at rock concerts and just going to places where young people went and stuff.
SM: 37:18
What do you think was the watershed event of the (19)60s? I think you have already said it, Vietnam?
RJ: 37:23
Yes. Yeah. I think Vietnam was, at least for, for most white people. Anyhow, I would be if I was African American, it might be something different. But I would say, but even though even though they were affected, like much more, you know, in terms of demographics and stuff, there might be something different for them. But I would say in terms of, of a white, in terms of white young people, Vietnam was the watershed event.
SM: 37:50
When you look at the whole era, the lessons of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what are the lessons, the lessons that we hopefully learn from, not only so we will not make the same mistakes again, or things that we are we wish we could continue to multiply. Just lessons from that era?
RJ: 38:15
One lesson would be that you cannot give up. Sometimes- this is in especially in the, I am speaking in the political arena. You cannot give up because you think you won because the people who are opposed to change the kind of change you want, are always ready to pounce back and remove the changes that you have. And I think we have seen that over the decades as stuff has slowly gone back like the- I mean, some things are moved forward, like marijuana is legal in so many states now. And it is not a big deal. Other things have moved backwards. And so, but I would, and then other things I think maybe is that sometimes it might be better to give your opponents a listen. And try to find points of commonality instead of only looking for the points where you disagree. Because if you only focus on the points you disagree, it is going to be really hard to ever come to any kind of any move forward that makes everybody a little bit happy at least. Other than that, I do not know. You know, I cannot, you know, in terms of things that I wish we could keep on doing, I wish there was just a way that we could just keep the feeling of that we are all in this together. But I do not think that exists anymore. I just think it is because that is how our economy goes. Our economy likes to atomize everything and people, there is so more people and some people and people's life- I do not think people have the same idea that they are all living this, in the same, same concept anymore. I think the divisions, I think in some ways that we are going back to the divisions. Some divisions are deeper, like, between, maybe between the very rich and everybody else. And there are different divisions, but I do, you know, and like between the people who think there is nothing wrong say with some of the stuff that, you know, politicians do and those of us who think that politicians are completely on the wrong track, you know, like, especially the right-wing politicians or whatever, you know, the Mitch McConnell and those-those folks. But it is hard to capsulize in just-just, just a couple of things.
SM: 40:51
Would you would you be able to, for example, when you look at this Boomer generation, I mean, this is a question on the generation because of the fact they are part, they are the (19)60s in respect. Just a couple adjectives, positive or negative against the generation?
RJ: 41:10
Self-centered, that is the negative one on one. Innovative. Potentially, I think they are more caring, I would say more caring is a big thing. You know, no matter how they express it, they express it by working with charity by whether they express it through if they go to church through their church, whether they express it politically, or just, you know, how they think, think about other people. I also think that, overall, this is not, is that they are materialistic. More than you know, even though we tried to get away from it. I think that ultimately, we are materialistic. And I think that is just such an overriding part of our culture, it is almost impossible to get away from it. Unless you do not have the ways to have any material things. And even then, you might be craving them I do not know, you know. I am trying to think of–
SM: 42:17
That is pretty good.
RJ: 42:22
I think also, and this is just due to what happened. And I do not think we were always that way, because I think we ended up, started off very hopeful. But I think a lot of us ended up quite cynical. So that was just something that happened over time. And maybe it is because we are we have romantic ideas. And then when those romantic ideas either failed, or were quashed-
SM: 42:47
Right.
RJ: 42:48
-a lot of times you just become a cynic. Because you are kind of like, well, what is the point? Nothing is going to change anyhow, so why should I bother?
SM: 42:54
You know, when we see the news for the last, whether it be from 9/11, around (20)00, or any of the bad things that happen on the Daily News in our for the last 18 years in this news century, and then you go back to the (19)90s and everything in the (19)60s was supposed to end all that. The goal of young people is not to have war, and peace and the whole things. And then you see all these terrible things happening, school children being killed, people go into schools and shooting on people, going into synagogues and killing people. The Muslims are an endangered species in many parts of the country, we, you know, have we gotten worse, or you know, and most and then several books have been written by two of the people that I have interviewed, that we have had more war since World War Two, than at any time in the history of the world. And you know, World War Two was supposedly, you know, going into the (19)50s. And the Cold War started. And it is just like, you wonder, wow, we had this great feeling of great spirit for that short period of time and for some reason, these, this youth, the 74 million that were in the boomer generation, what had they done to make any kind of a difference? And some people will say nothing.
RJ: 44:14
Yeah. Oh, yeah. There is a lot of people will say nothing, I mean, I hear- you see those things. I do not know, if you use Facebook or anything. You will see the memes on there, blaming everything on the boomer generation, you know, and, you know, there is a validity to that, because it is people our age, but part of that, I think, is because people thought you know, when people think what they think, everybody was the same and they do not understand that there was always at least two opposing viewpoints, even among our generation, you know. A lot of people took, picked and picked and chose what they wanted from each side, you know, and I think that was probably what most people did. Whereas there are some people like myself more and more definitely on the left, and others people who are always definitely on the right. And so, part of that I think is the it was it was the whole thing was with the [inaudible] constant war, I think it was just the way, it was something that happened when after World War Two, and they decided that they wanted to maintain this permanent war economy because that was the only way they could keep everybody employed. And they were not, they were not creative enough to come up with a different way. I mean, you look at someplace like Japan, where they were forbidden to make any weapons, or even have a standing army for decades. And they ended up becoming a very wealthy country too. But only recently have they even been allowed to have a standing army. And so consequently, they spent a lot of their energy developing other stuff, you know, that-that did not require them to constantly go out. And or, did not require them to think that they needed keep on going out [inaudible] war, to get rid of the inventory, or whatever the reason is.
SM: 44:20
Yeah, I do. Right.
RJ: 46:07
And I do not think any other countries have the idea that they can save the world. Maybe the only other one that might have in its time, in our time, is the Soviet Union. And that was because of, you know, they had an agenda, as well as the United States to both of us was to protect, I believe, was to defend, ultimately, their economic growth for either-either country.
SM: 46:29
So, the, a little anecdote, when I lived in San Francisco Bay area, from (19)76, to (19)83, there was this religious minister on the radio, he had his weekly show, I listened to what he, you know, he was good at times, but I will never forget him making a statement one night, on the radio, it was late at night. And he said, he blamed all the problems of the world-- now this is in the late (19)70s, and early (19)80s, all the problems on the world on the boomer generation, and he basically made a- and he is a minister. And he said, "The world will be a much better place when-when we know the last member of the boomer generation has died." And that was across the board statement, whether you are conservative liberal or anything in between, because he was condemning that entire generation, for a lot of the issues that were going on in the Bay Area and the world at that time. And I just that is always kind of stuck with me. I wanted to get back to one other question here. We were talking about that question, a question, learning lessons. Of course, the biggest lesson is whether we as a nation, the United States, learned anything from the Vietnam War. You know, because we have been involved in other wars. I know, when the Gulf War came up in (19)89, a lot of Vietnam veterans are saying, "Do not go to war." Because you know, we are, we should not be going there. And just your and then, of course, we have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, just your thoughts on did, talking about lessons learned or lessons lost, did the United States of America learn anything from the lessons of Vietnam?
RJ: 48:07
I think what they learned, I mean, and Colin Powell said it back when he was working for Reagan I think, and he said that you should not go into a country. I mean, these are bad things to learn, I think, but it is what they learned because their military minds. And that is that you do not go into and into a country unless, you know, you can overwhelm them with superior force. And that was kind of what they did when they did that first war in Iraq like (19)91, or whatever, under George Bush, the father. And I think the other thing they learned was to them, was to not let people know what was really going on in the battle zone. And just by controlling the media, even more than it was ever controlled in Vietnam. And I think the other thing they learned was to never have a draft. Because all of those, I mean, all these wars and the war, I mean, we were we have been at war now since well, since they attacked Afghanistan after 9/11. And we do not even really know you and I and most of Americans, most people in the world do not know what countries the US is even fighting in other than Afghanistan.
SM: 49:21
Right.
RJ: 49:21
And, you know, and that has nothing to do even with, and that does not even begin to mention the places where we supply most of the arms, like in Yemen or something like that. So, I think the-the military establishment and the war establishment, learn very, learned those lessons very well. Basically, if you are going to be a war, do not tell the truth, which is kind of like, you know, that is the standard thing, the first casualty of war is the truth. But this way, they have just learned to not even begin with it, you know, and, and, I mean, if you think of the way we got into the-the (20)03 invasion of Iraq, it was Colin Powell was up there telling outright lies to the Security Council, you know, and he even admitted, yeah, I lied. And then there is this guy, Colonel-Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson. He is a retired Air Force guy. And he just put out a- wrote an article that he put out talking about how he, how he lied for the, to get the US into Iraq. And he is saying do not, we cannot let them do it again to go into Iran. You know. So, as far as the rest of us, I think there was a decent antiwar movement against the first invasion of Iraq, the deserts, I think that was Desert Storm.
SM: 50:36
Yep.
RJ: 50:37
And then I think there was a really good antiwar movement against-against the second invasion of Iraq, but I think the leaders of the antiwar movement did not, they thought that they could, they decided to go along and go along with the Obama campaign and join the Democratic Party to try to stop the war. And they should have known better because the Vietnam War expanded under-under the Democrats, you know, under LBJ, Kennedy and LBJ.
SM: 51:08
Right.
RJ: 51:08
So, and that, I think, so I am not sure the leadership of the antiwar movement learned anything, because basically, they allowed the antiwar movement to be led into the, into the, into the Democratic Party. And while Obama did diminish the number of troops in Iraq, there is still, there has always been troops there, and then he just stepped up the aerial and the drone wars and so on.
SM: 51:32
Right, right.
RJ: 51:32
So, so I am not- it is it is kind of a mixed bag, you know, and I do not know, like, now I wonder if, say, say they decided to invade Venezuela or invade Iran in the next year or two, I wonder how, how and what the any antiwar movement would look like. I mean, I stay in touch with a lot of people who were involved in all the antiwar movements since Viet- since Vietnam, and, you know, and all- whether they started back then or whether they were younger and came-came around- but it is just kind of people who have been, have kind of committed their life [inaudible] anyhow, you know.
SM: 52:15
Right.
RJ: 52:17
So, I do not, I do not know how many people would come and join any groundswell. It is really difficult to tell, because we are so removed from so many people's lives now.
SM: 52:26
Right.
RJ: 52:26
Since there is. since there is no draft, that that changes everything I think.
SM: 52:32
When you look back, there has been- I do a lot of reading and books and the some of the recent books have said, they are talking about how effective really was the student- I mean, not the antiwar movement as a whole, but the student protest movement on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam. I would like your thoughts on, did they play a major role in ending the war? The critics will say that, "Oh, no, no, no, that they did not have that much, they were troublemakers, basically." And what really ended, the, when people started going against the war is when their sons came start coming home from the war from people that live in the Midwest and their sons came home in coffins. That is what changed the war. And your thoughts on the student protest movement during the (19)60s and early (19)70s?
RJ: 53:23
I think it was very important. I think that it was the bulk of the antiwar movement. I think if that if the student antiwar movement had not existed, a lot of those people whose sons did come home in the coffins, and so on, would never have thought that it was okay for them to be against the war. And they would have just kind of said, well, you know, he died for his country, and they would have gone along with that. But I think the fact that the antiwar movement, which was basically mostly student based because they were the ones, it was people their age was going to be set over there. I think that the fact that they organized the movement, that they helped the movement expand and so on, and that they were not afraid to stand up and deal with whatever they had to deal with, that is, that is, that is what held [inaudible] for antiwar idea, consciousness in the American people. And then I think, you know, I think of my father, he was a military man. He was a career military man. He went to Vietnam, he told me is- this is an interesting irony. But on the, I was 13. On the day that, on the day that LBJ said that he was would not run nor would he accept the nomination for his party for presidency. That was like March 31 (19)68. He, that was the day my dad told me that he had given-given orders to go to Vietnam.
SM: 54:51
Oh, wow.
RJ: 54:52
And I was just, I was 13. I was starting to I was I was I was precocious in terms of my awareness of the news and everything and, you know, so and I had already started campaigning for Gene McCarthy and I was switching over to Bobby Kennedy once he joined after the, after the New Hampshire primary there, but. But um, and I just remembered that and then he went away, he started starting in July of that of that year (19)68, he went away, because he had to go to these special trainings before we went over to Vietnam. So he was basically gone for like 18 months. And when he came back, I was pretty much hardcore antiwar, and so on. And he never told me this until after my son was born when I was 29. So sometime like mid-mid (19)80s. He, he said, "You know, when I, by the time I was in Vietnam, I knew that it was the wrong war for us to be in." And he said, "But I had no choice." He said, "I had a family to support. I had," you know, and, and basically, you know, that, as you can probably guess, that was a major source of contention between me and my father, the whole time I was in high school, and we would have some pretty intense arguments about it and stuff, you know, and it kind of made me question. You know, ee was a very, he was raised Catholic, he is a very traditional Catholic. So always made me question the morality of somebody who could be involved in that at the same time, the, the this, “Thou shalt not kill and all that kind of stuff,” you know what I mean, so. So, I think and I think he was on the conservative edge of things. And I think he [inaudible] when he told me that he said, "yeah," he says, "If I had been a civilian," he said, "I would not have gone to a protest." But I would have signed every petition, and I would have talked to congress people. But [inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible].
SM: 56:57
One of the kind of semi controversies, it is happening today, and I have seen amongst Vietnam veterans now. I go to the Vietnam Memorial a lot, and I listen to all the state and I- it is a nonpolitical entity, they talk about it is in remembrance of those who served and died. And, and they are heroes. When the when the Vietnam, it is well known fact that when Vietnam vets came home, they were treated terribly by this country as a whole. And but the question I have always felt, in my experience with the antiwar movement, is I never felt that the anti the genuine antiwar activists were against the troops, they were against the leaders who sent the troops. And there is still this perception out there that when they came home from Vietnam, it was the antiwar movement that treated them poorly. I do not think so. But could you correct me or your feelings on this? I thought it was. I thought it was America as a whole. Because of this perception that Vietnam vets were baby killers, the My Lai massacre, post-traumatic stress disorder, they are all crazy, all these things. And so, I thought that was the reason why, but you know, your thoughts.
RJ: 58:14
I think that I agree with what you are saying essentially, in terms of that it was the, it was the government of the United States that failed the, failed the veterans. Failed the guys coming back. It is for me, having grown up growing up in the military, and when I was in high school, doing a lot of work and hanging out with a lot of GIS who are against the war a lot. Where I was in Germany, a lot of the GIS were finishing up their two years enlistment because they were just draftees. And so, they would, they would have gone to boot camp, and then gone to Vietnam for a year. And then they would spend like their last 10 months being a clerk typist somewhere, you know, and a lot of us ended up in Germany In Germany. And so, I knew them through like, you know, rock music and, you know, to smoking pot, and just like, working with some of them on-on new antiwar stuff, and so on. And, you know, they were a select group, they were not the majority of, you know, just like most people that most people are not politically involved, these guys were politically involved. And, you know, what I [inaudible] them, is they were very clear that it was, you know, the people they did not like, was the officers and the politicians. And it was the politicians who could have treated them one way or the other. And they basically stalled for so long to even get the PTSD considered a valid psychological disorder, you know, and the only reason that really happened was because of who [inaudible] the war constantly lobbying and so on to, to get recognized by the APA as, to go into the DSM, whatever you think of the DSM that is, you know, that is what the where they have the list of disorders. So, I think Americans in general just wanted to forget about it, kind of the way they, right now I work part time in a public library. And a lot of the people who come in every day are people who do not have a home. And a lot of them are vets from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
SM: 1:00:23
Wow.
RJ: 1:00:23
And I see the same thing, I see the same thing happening.
SM: 1:00:27
Wow, that is really sad.
RJ: 1:00:28
People do not care about them. And these men, I think, probably have, I do not know, because I was never in war, thank God. But some of these men come in, and they have some incredible mental health issues, not to go not to say about other issues that they are just finding out, you know, cancers or something that happened from being in a war zone and so on. And they self-medicate on very heavy levels, you know, like, kind of like some of, you probably had buddies who did the same thing, who came back from Vietnam. I know I did. I had like two or three of my friends who are dead by the end of this, who two of them enlisted. And one of them got drafted. And they went to Vietnam. They were a couple years older than me in high school. And they all, one of them overdosed on heroin, the other two committed suicide. So that so you know, how the high rate of suicide now-
SM: 1:01:17
Yes.
RJ: 1:01:19
-among Iraq vets and so on. And so I kind of it is kind of, you know, American politicians love to make Bernie Sanders and I am not politicking for him or anything, but he will say, if you do not want to make if you do not want to take care of your vets, do not make wars, you know, and because his point is that, you know, Americans like their wars, but they do not really care about the vets. And when I talk with my dad about it, who used to be when he first got out of the military in (19)79, he used to be kind of [inaudible] on Vietnam vets who are complaining, but then he starts doing his church, he started doing counseling for vets who are applying to get back into the workforce. And, and, you know, he wanted to do it, because he was a vet himself that he, you know, he understands that military code and all that. And that, even if they even if GIS did not like the military, they still respect a man who had a higher rate. So, there is that whole thing that happens within the military training and everything. And it really changed his mind about it. He realized, like, No, you know, we did him wrong. I think that is part of what happened in Vietnam. And I think it is what is, you know, it happened in previous wars. But I think what the difference between previous wars and Vietnam was that Vietnam became such an unpopular war. But also, at the same time, there was a lot. It was the first time that a war had taken place where people continued to chall- where the challenges to it got bigger as the war went on as opposed to other wars where they were like, say World War One, there was a lot of opposition to the US going in and just all around the world. But once the war started, most [inaudible] did their thing. Same with World War Two. Whereas Vietnam, nobody really even knew it was beginning but by the time it was [cuts off]
SM: 1:03:09
Still there?
RJ: 1:03:10
Yeah, I am just going in and out. Are you there?
SM: 1:03:14
Yeah, I am here. Got it okay?
RJ: 1:03:19
My phone is funny, sometimes. I am trying to stay in one place, but I am not sure what is going on.
SM: 1:03:24
I hear you now.
RJ: 1:03:26
Okay. So, I think that the vets bore the brunt of it. You know, and I but I do not think it was the antiwar movement, any more than it was any other part of the United States.
SM: 1:03:37
Have you changed your feeling about the boomer generation over the years, just changed from when you were younger that spirit and now today, have you just devolved differently when you think about that whole generation? [phone rings]
RJ: 1:03:53
Well, not really, I still think that it played as you know, as a generation. It-
SM: 1:04:00
That is a noise in the background, forget it.
RJ: 1:04:02
Okay. As a generation it did, it took advantage of the time it was in and it made things it changed the world for the better- in substantial ways, mostly for the better, I think. I think I do not know, climate change is a tough thing to get a handle on, you know, get your head around. But I think in a lot of terms of people being able to fulfill their lives and people granting more opportunity for more people at least in the United States [inaudible]
SM: 1:04:42
Is your phone breaking up?
RJ: 1:04:48
I think this is, I am not sure why. Yeah.
SM: 1:04:50
You got enough power in your phone?
RJ: 1:04:53
Yeah. I am plugged in. I am plugged in.
SM: 1:04:57
We are about a little, about halfway through that okay?
RJ: 1:05:01
Yeah, yep.
SM: 1:05:01
Yeah-yeah. And I am going to get to some questions about your two books in a couple more questions. But I got a few more here that. Let us see here. Could you describe, a lot of times the boomer generation and the student- young people in the (19)60s used to say they were the most unique generation in American history is because of the attitudes they had, that they were going to be the best change agents for good in our society, was that arrogance on the part of the boomer generation and the students of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that they were going to be different than any other generation, before or after?
RJ: 1:05:09
Okay. The I think it was era, it is not necessarily a bad arrogance, I think they would have been told that growing up, that they were special. And I think the fact that so many of them took it to heart and tried to do the right thing with it, it is actually it is kind of like trying to make that arrogance air out you know. But yeah, I think it is a little bit arrogant. I- it is hard. I think it is too early to tell whether or not it was true, to be honest. But I also, you know, I have a son who is 35 have a daughter who is 25. And, you know, their mom and I, you know, even when we lived in different houses and stuff, we were always involved in, very involved in their parenting and so on. And she is a few years younger than me. So, she is a little bit different generation a little bit later in the boomer generation. So, but I think that their values are the same, but I do not see them as intense on trying to change anything, they are just trying to figure out how to pay their bills and stuff like that. And part of it is because of the way college is structured now, you have some people kids owe more than that, they owe more than I ever paid for a house, just to go through college. So, you know.
SM: 1:06:58
What did you know, and I will close on this, this particular area of questioning what made the generation different beyond their size, we all know, everybody talks about how big, you know, the boomer generation after World War Two, you know, babies are booming like crazy? And we all know about the size. And that is what they talked about for years, it was in the (19)50s, how big this generation is, what made them so different?
RJ: 1:07:21
I think part of it was the media. And the advent of television and the fact that by what, (19)68 pretty much, so many homes had TVs in them. And the television industry at that time was so centralized. So, we were all seeing a lot of the same stuff. And there was only two or three out, there were CBS, ABC and NBC and Metro media. So, there was not a lot of different interpretations of what was going on. And then I also think that the school systems in most neighborhoods, mostly white neighborhoods, once again, I think we are very well funded. And a lot of the teachers who were teaching were people with a breadth of experience, and they wanted, you know, there was a lot of innovative stuff there for them to use. So that kind of expanded the way we thought. And I also just think the access that we had, it is nothing compared to what kids have now. But we were the first generation to have access to, you know, expendable cash. Um, so there is a whole culture that grew up around us, which did not really happen before. And they always talk about, you know, Chuck Berry, Elvis and Bill Haley as like being the beginning of the youth culture. And by the time, by the time of the late (19)60s, it was like the counterculture. And then by the mid (19)70s, it started breaking up into smaller subcultures. But still, we were buying the bulk of the records, and we were, we were determining what wrote what route the record company and the movies, we are going to go. You know, I mean, if you think of so many movies that were geared towards the youth, you know, the young generation at that time, whether they were silly movies, or whether they were more serious movies like Joe or The Graduate or something, you know, or Easy Rider, they were still geared because that was a market. So, I think it was a combination, the size definitely made a difference, because that meant that people who wanted to make money knew that they had, they could make a lot of money and they sold the right thing. And so then that spread it even more, but it also they that means they had to figure out a way to package the ideas that we were representing or that we were expressing and then sell them back to us and by selling them back to us, they spread it like I was saying earlier with what by the fact that they took the Woodstock movie, made Woodstock [inaudible] all over the world [inaudible] Woodstock generation that [inaudible], you know.
SM: 1:09:53
It has often so often been quoted in a lot of the history books, particularly the ones written in the (19)90s on the (19)60s that the, the-the boomers or the actually the boomer generation were truly activists or involved in some sort of activity linked to the Vietnam War, Civil Rights, the women's movement, the Native American movement, Hispanic movement, environmental movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, were that they were linked to the issues of the day, the saying that they were, there were only 7 percent involved. And I thought, well, that is still a lot of people when you are talking 74 million. But is it true? Or is this another way that some writers whether they be to the right, or people who are critical of the left, is this another way of lessening the impact that this generation or that 7 percent have had on American scene since the (19)60s?
RJ: 1:10:49
I think it is a way of lesson I mean, who knows what the real numbers were and who knows how they arrived at those numbers. I mean, if you think about if you try to take add together, people who went to protests or people who said they went to protest, or people who joined SDS, or people who were involved in some civil rights organization, or an Earth Day or the, you know, the lesbian, gay movement or something, it is, it is really hard to say, because what do they mean by commitment? I mean, everybody, most people were affected by it on some level, and some people might have gone to one protest, but never gone to another one. And, you know, so that that is hard. I think it is a way to try to diminish it, because I think it kind of takes away the fact that most major moments of social upheaval, are usually only involving a few people. Like the American Revolution did not involve most of the most of the colonists, the French Revolution and Russia revolution did not either. So, it is hard to, it is hard to say, but I, when I read those books, when I read those numbers and stuff, my first reaction is like, I do not believe it. And then my second reaction is, well, how did you come up with these, with that number, you know.
SM: 1:12:05
Very good, good, another good analysis there. I, this is a question that is one, been one of the most important one I have asked, during this whole process of interviewing people over all the years, I have been one that is always wondered about the healing process. Do you feel that the generation of boomers the, or the young people of that era and even America, and certainly Vietnam veterans, do you feel that this generation and the group, that healing as it relates to the war and other divisions of the time, that we have not gotten over it even today, and, and I asked this in terms of the Vietnam memorial was built to heal the nation. Remember, Jan Scruggs wrote the book, "To Heal a Nation."
RJ: 1:12:52
Right.
SM: 1:12:53
He is what he tried to do it to heal the Vietnam veterans who served in that war, their families, and the loved ones of those who died. And, and I think he is pretty comfortable that that wall has done a lot with respect to healing within that group. However, do you feel that we as a nation, and I know we are talking years, Vietnam now ended in (19)75. So, we are talking a long time ago. But do you think we are still having problems with healing? Or do you think a lot of the people still have not healed from that war and are going to go with to the grave with the animosity and dislike toward the people who disagreed with them over that their involvement in the war and the, you know, protests against the war? It is the whole healing process as a nation. You think, is it important, or is it, it is not an issue anymore?
RJ: 1:13:50
I think it is still going on. And I think every once in a while, a politician comes along, who breaks open the wound, and kind of pokes itself [inaudible] or whatever, and riles up people who, who they will never forgive on both sides. And then it starts all over and then we have this other moment of soul searching. But then the way I kind of look at it, too, is healing from a trauma like that is never going to be easy. And it is a long-time process. I think some of the people who poke the wound are people who were, who were not even alive at the time, but they have this idea, this ideological idea, and I think it is mostly from the right but I know also, it is also from the left, but and who will bring it up to try to because it is kind of like a shortcut, a metaphor for certain divisions that have always existed in this country between the you know, the left wing and the right wing, and people in the middle and so on. I mean, I speak personally and people, you know, my father and I had a big gap and we did not talk to each other for a few years and stuff like that and Vietnam was the crux of the issue and his role. But you know, we are, we are, we are way past that and like, I know that most of his friends that he stays in touch with from the military, you know, a lot of his lot of his friend's kids had the same kind of issue with their father. And that is long gone, you know, you, you know, you have their grandkids and things change, you know, so I think, I think, I think on a personal level, and I just think of like people that I talked to, or that I have talked to over the years, whether when I was organizing for, you know, stuff, and whether or not they supported me, whether or not they supported my side or still were on their side, I think that there is, we have, there is an ability to talk with each other now that did not exist then. And sometimes that might be all you can hope for, because talking is crucial to anything. But I think there will always be those on both sides, for good reason, in their mind, that will never let go. And they will go to the grave, angry at the stuff that went down, and the other side as they perceive them, and so on. But I do not it is kind of like the racial thing. I do not think the racial thing is as bad as it used to be either. I mean, you look around it, you see so many interracial couples, you see so many sports teams that, you know, kids are your kids or your grandkids or some relatives of yours, kids or whatever play on. And, you know, it is like, kids of all races, and they are, you know, they are playing together sports, and there is, and some of them are hanging out after school and stuff. So, so I think it is kind of changed. I am not saying it is gone, because I do not think it is. And like I said, I think there are those politicians and others who bring it up every once a while for-for their own reasons. And so, when they do that, it does get people riled up. I mean I admit, it gets me riled up when I see somebody. Like, Henry Kissinger still pisses the hell out of me.
SM: 1:17:05
Oh, yeah. He does everybody [laughs]. Yes.
RJ: 1:17:07
Yeah, and every time I see him on kind of, like, you know, someone you know, you know, I do not need- someone needs to drive a wooden stake through his heart because I think he is a vampire. But you know, you know what I mean? Like, if so, and Kissinger lives in his own world, so I do not think he really cares, because he kind of has such an arrogance. I do not think he thinks he is even human, but that is a whole other story.
SM: 1:17:26
You need to read, there is a brand-new book out called Reckless, you need to read it. It is about him.
RJ: 1:17:32
Oh, really? Okay. Thanks for the recommendation.
SM: 1:17:33
Yeah, it is called "Reckless." You will see it in the bookstores.
RJ: 1:17:36
Yeah sure, maybe my library has it. If not, I will order it. Yeah. Cool. Okay.
SM: 1:17:41
And he actually has written a book now called "Kissinger on Kissinger," when I go to Barnes and Noble I turn the book, I put the back side up on the book [laughs].
RJ: 1:17:51
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:17:53
The generation gap was something that was all talked about in the (19)60s, I mean, this generation gap. In fact, one of the people I interviewed was the guy on the front cover of Life magazine, who was had his picture with the glasses on talking with his father. And I actually interviewed him, had a great interview. And, but that was a really good book that he wrote too and they healed, I mean, but my main [inaudible] questions, you basically answered it, because the generation gap that we all heard about and experienced. And with respect, do you think it is really gotten a lot better between those people within families in particular?
RJ: 1:18:31
Yeah, I really do. I mean, I just think of things, you know, you get used to each other. That is one thing, you know. And then you know, something- I was I was down visiting my dad, he was in the DC area. I was down, visiting him last December and I happened to be over at his house when one of his old buddies came by, some- somebody who retired a couple of years before he did. And I had not seen him since he was still in uniform. And I was still I was, like, 22 years old or something. And he, we got to talking because he I was asking how I was friends with one of his daughters, and we got to talking about his kids. And he was talking about his grandkids and everything. And you know, and he looked at me and like, my hair is still really long. And he looked at me, he goes, Yeah, you know, he joked about it. I said, "Well, I will probably never cut it." He goes, "Yeah, that is because your father made you keep it short the whole time you lived at his house." And I said, "Yes, that is very true." And then my dad had him both, actually said to me, as our conversation went on, they go, "You know, Ron, you were more right about things than we were." And I thought that was interesting. I mean, he still has his opinions about the stuff that will never change, like about abortion and contraception and stuff like that, you know, but he said about the war and about-about who was really running the country and what-what the reasons they were, he said that they did not have the country's best interests in mind. And I used to get into arguments with him and that guy all the time. So that was kind of cool. Like, you know, to be, to be able to stay aware, study and look back on what you thought, and be able to change your mind. And I, and I have done the same thing. You know, there is some things that I was like really adamant about. And I was like, you know, really there is nothing, you know, they were right. There is something to be said about some of these things that have been around for generations and stuff, you know. So, it is kind of like, we will get to this point where he will say, "I grew up during World War Two." And you know, he was in high school during World War Two. And he goes, "I grew up during World War Two. And you know, there was a clear enemy. And then after that, we were told the Communists were the enemy." And he says that, "As it turned out, maybe they were not as big of an enemy as we thought they were, and what maybe we should have dealt with it differently." He said, "But when you are in the thick of things you do not know." And I said, "Yeah, well, that is kind of like the same thing for me." I was in the thick of things, and there were some things that I thought were great that I found out, well, maybe I should not have been champion, like, you know, Communist China or something, you know, what I mean, you know, that I definitely was, but you know, I would, I would just like to have, I would just to rile up my dad, I would have pictures of Mao on my wall, you know, just because just to make him see, you know, so you know, stuff like that. Now, I would never do that because, you know, Mao did great things, but he did a lot of terrible things, too. So, you know.
SM: 1:21:16
It is like me, when I first took a job at West Chester University in (19)87, the first person I met was a professor in political science, the chair, I went into his office, and he had a picture of Lenin behind his office. And he is, and then he had a picture of a man that was on his desk. And he said, before we even started the, to talk about it, because I was just meeting him for the first time he said, "The man be- on the wall behind me is my hero. And the man that is in that picture on my desk is the, is-is my enemy. I despise him." Well, that was the President of Bing- of Westchester University.
RJ: 1:21:53
Oh, really? Oh, that is funny. [laughter]
SM: 1:21:57
He was just rubbing me the wrong way, he just was testing me. He says, "I was only kidding." [laughter]
RJ: 1:22:03
That is great.
SM: 1:22:04
But, you know, it was a little bit of humor there.
RJ: 1:22:07
Yeah.
SM: 1:22:07
I have one other question, then I am going to get into your books. The-the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. How, how important was that movement in terms of the whole (19)60s era in terms of activism against, you know, the war and civil rights? A lot has been written recently about that Free Speech Movement, Ronald Reagan came to national recognition because of his war against the students at Berkeley. But your thoughts on that Free Speech Movement and the impact that it had on the (19)60s?
RJ: 1:22:42
I think the key thing, I mean, lot of the organizers were-were men and women who had been down doing [inaudible] registration out in the South. [cuts off]
SM: 1:22:58
Still there? Hold on.
RJ: 1:23:03
Okay.
SM: 1:23:04
Yeah, we are back. Yep.
RJ: 1:23:05
Okay. I think that it helped them see that the issues that they had been working on down South, were also related to issues that were their issues at home. And I think the whole time when-when they took [inaudible], and did the speeches for that 18 hours, or whatever it was, I think that was one of the most empowering things that young people could see that they could, that they could control the discussion for-for the while, and it kind of it was, in terms of empowerment, I think it was one of the key moments for the white student movement, especially.
SM: 1:23:44
You know, still there?
RJ: 1:23:46
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:23:47
You-you hit the word there, empowerment. When we brought Tom Paine Hayden to our campus, sadly, he is passed now. But six years ago, not six years ago, 10 years ago, I brought him just before I left Westchester. And he met with all of our student leaders, and we had dinner and he went to dinner and-and he was listening to what the students, he asked, "What power do you have? Do you have a voice here on campus?" And they all said, "Oh, yeah, we are involved in doing budgets, and we are on committees, we are appointed." And he is sitting there in amazement, he is shaking his head. No, he comes back and says, "I am not asking you about what power you have. I want to know if you are truly empowered." And then he went on to define empowerment. And they then they start shaking their heads. It is like, I do not know if I liked this guy. And so, it is a difference of generations here but what true empowerment means. Could you define the difference between power and empowerment, in when you discuss the (19)60s, especially those people who are in the antiwar movement?
RJ: 1:24:56
Power is something that somebody in my mind powers something that somebody else has. And some people try to take it for themselves. And they may or may not succeed, but you are not, empowerment is something that comes from within an individual and within a group. And when you realize that you as, as a group, or you as a class, or you as a gender or as a movement, have the power to change things without asking to do it. I mean, that is to me is kind of what I see. Whereas power is something you have to ask someone else to give you.
SM: 1:25:30
Very good. I agree. I am going to ask some questions about your book right now. I know you wrote the book, "The Way the Wind Blew." And there is a, there is a comment on the back of the book that I want you to respond to. You probably remember this. Jacobs argues that the group's eventual demise, this is the Weathermen.
RJ: 1:25:50
Yeah.
SM: 1:25:50
The group's actual eventual demise resulted in the, I will think I will read it from the book, I cannot read my own writing. My goodness. See here. He argues that the group's eventual demise resulted as much from the contradictions of his politics as from the increasingly repressive FBI attention. Could you go into detail on that?
RJ: 1:26:14
Yeah. In terms of politics, the original statement that you do not know a Weatherman statement was they basically, it is-I am trying to figure out a way to do without using too much jargon. They basically put the Black liberation movement as the as the vanguard of any revolution in the United States, above the working class, above any class. And then they also saw as, then they also saw themselves. And that is the fundamental basis of their, of their argument, and that they are the only that the thing that what the white movement could do was to support the Black liberation movement, especially as represented by the Black Panthers, and a couple other similar ultra-left organizations. Then after they did the Days of Rage, where they, they thought they were going to get 10,000 people, and they barely got 1000, at best, and they got in fights with, they started fights with the cops, and the cops beat them up and stuff like that. And then they went underground. And there, that was when they started calling. Everybody, except for people who agreed with them, pigs, and that if you were either on their side, or you are on the wrong side, and you know, you know, and that did not just mean policemen or politicians or businessmen or people who, you know, it meant the people who worked in the businesses, it meant GIS, it meant other students who disagreed with their politics or whatever. And then there was the whole contradiction when they decided to kind of, when they went underground. And there was a battle between, there was a strong debate between the different cells as to whether or not they should say whether or not they should use bombs to kill people. And as you probably know, like, they had the bomb that blew up in the townhouse in Greenwich Village, was intended to kill a bunch of soldiers at-at a dance at Fort Dix. Fortunately, fortunately, in the long run, and for those soldiers and their girlfriends, it did not kill anybody but three of the Weather Underground. But there is even within that group of people who are working in that townhouse, there was at least two of the four who did not agree with the idea to kill people, they just wanted to blow up, like, you know, like a recruiting office or, you know, put a bomb in the Pentagon or something like that, and call ahead and not and not kill, not hurt anybody. Because they wanted to have more symbolic attacks at that level. And then the other thing was when they came, then another contradiction that came up was when they decided to try to organize young people and the whole, they latched on to the counterculture and so on. And that became greater and greater, because there was two very different factions in the group. It is hard to say who represented who but I would say that Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn and the California group were more into the counterculture. And the New York group with David Gilbert and some of those people, some of the people from Boston, were more into maintaining a hardcore Marxist Leninism and not-not bombing as much and trying to actually do other kinds of underground activities. And so, there was all these contradictions that were bubbling up and what they, they came to a fruition after the United States left Vietnam because that was the main reason why Weatherman- Weather Underground existed was because of the Vietnam War. I mean, you know, a lot of them had about half of them that started in the anti-racist movement. But when the war came along, they became many of the leaders in SDS of the antiwar movement. And they would tie the anti-racist and the antiwar movements together a lot of as anti-imperialist movements. But then, when, when that happened, when the United States left Vietnam in April 30 (19)75, the group was pretty small by then. And there was a lot of debate within the group about where they should go next. Some members wanted to, Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Jeff Jones, and a few of the other ones, some of the original founders who are still in the group, they wanted to go above ground. They wanted to turn themselves in, try to work out a deal where they only did a few months each or something. And then organize with the above ground or popular united front organizations they had to go into the working class and start organizing women workers, African American workers, Latino workers and young workers to try to create a new militant labor movement. But then there was this other faction that was led by an old guy who had, his name was Clayton Van Lydegraf, he had been kicked out of the Communist Party, kicked out of the progressive Labor Party, because he was too ultra-left. He was basically a guy who believed in propaganda of the deed, you know, so he convinced another group to go and start bombing again, and they got infiltrated. And that is how that group got arrested.
SM: 1:26:25
Wow.
RJ: 1:26:45
And then, you know, and so, so there are so many contradictions within the group. And then when you combine it with the fact that the Feds were kind of, the Feds were pretty close to catching them, and then they would not be because I think when the church committee hearings happened, a lot of those a lot of those investigations that were being conducted illegally had to be shut down, which is the only way you are going to catch someone like the Weatherman anyhow, because they had a very good underground network and so on. So, I hope that answers your question.
SM: 1:32:15
Yes, it does, I think Mark Rudd was in that group too, was not he?
RJ: 1:32:19
Yeah. And he left, he left back, like in (19)70 right after they were underground. He was underground for a little while. And then they, the women in the group asked him to leave the group because of his sexist sex- hardcore sexism. And basically, he left. And you know, he never snitched on anybody or anything. But he left. And you know, he is actually his book, he wrote a book.
SM: 1:32:42
Yeah, it is a good book.
RJ: 1:32:44
It is a very good book. And, you know, if you have the time, while you are reading, to check out a few of the different memoirs that have come out, they all, read them together, you kind of get an idea of the different, you know, they are all very intelligent individuals. And so, you get an idea of stuff that went on, within the group and so on. And then also on a personal level, Kathy Wilkerson's is very good too. She is one of the few women who has written-written a book on it. And it is a, it is a really good book, she sticks a lot more to the politics than some of the, some of the guys' memoirs do and stuff too.
SM: 1:33:18
Well, I have had a chance to meet Mark at Kent State. He is and I really liked him. He was a–
RJ: 1:33:22
Well, I heard he is a really nice guy. I have talked to him on the phone a couple of times, he helped me, like when I was writing my book, no one was talking about the Weather Underground. And they did not really know who I was. And my context, the guy who was like I was going to I had gone back to get my undergraduate degree. I was like, in my late 30s. And I wrote that as my senior thesis out at Evergreen College, and the guy who was my, one of my advisors, was a guy who had been in the antiwar movement in Boston. And he had been arrested down in San Diego, and charged with conspiracy to, the FBI tried to kill him and stuff. But um, and so but he had always disagreed with the Weather Underground. So, he only knew a couple people that would talk to me because most of them did not, they still had these grudges from the (19)70s, you know what I mean. But through him, so I was only able to talk to a few people, I was able to talk to Bill Ayers. And then I talked to a few guys who were still underground that I met actually two friends of mine, who knew them because they sold LSD to them.
SM: 1:34:29
I have met I have met Bill Ayers at Kent State as well. And-and then, of course, Bernadine, I interviewed her.
RJ: 1:34:37
Oh, that have been interesting. I have never really, I have met her like a couple of times, but I have never been able to sit down and talk with her or anything.
SM: 1:34:43
Well, I did a phone interview with her. And then I went to New York to take her picture along with David McReynolds, I mean, he just died last year.
RJ: 1:34:51
Oh yeah. Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:34:52
And I took pictures of them together. It was, it is an interesting side note, I will send you an email on it, but I am still going to get her interview approval back. And of course, David died. So, I got to go through his brother. There is no question you feel that SDS died because of the Weatherman, correct?
RJ: 1:35:10
No, I do not, I think SDS was going to die anyhow.
SM: 1:35:15
Okay.
RJ: 1:35:16
I think it was, it had [cuts out]
SM: 1:35:23
Still there?
RJ: 1:35:28
You there?
SM: 1:35:29
Yep, I am here.
RJ: 1:35:30
Okay. In (19)68, you could see it when they started to go down the, when they started to become more Marxist, Leninist, and so on, they, they were going to automatically cut out a lot of folks who did not, who might-might have been interested in what Marx had to say, but we are not going to call themselves Leninists. You know, and they might have found Marx a good way to analyze capitalism, to find a fault with capitalism. But they were not going to, they were not going to say that they were pro, you know, dictatorship or proletariat, or anything. So, I think they were kind of at a at their end anyhow, it is too bad that nothing really came after them that had the popular groundswell of them and so on. Which is not to say that groups like Weather Underground and the progressive Labor Party cert- they certainly helped make that end come quicker, I think. You know, because I think if SDS had been around when Kent State happened as the SDS pre- Weather Underground, pre-progressive Labor Party, I think those protests might have taken a different turn. I do not, I think Kent State might have still happened. But [inaudible] they would have been able to sustain them past the original outrage and actually make it make a lot more of a long-term difference. But who knows, you know, it is one of those alternative history things.
SM: 1:36:53
One of the things you state in the book, I perused through it, I got to read it real, sit down, and really, I was reading it fast. Is that you talk about the, it is not about the personalities in the weather, weather men, it is about the political history of the organization. And there is a quote in there that the weather's insistence on an ant- what really affected you and you were influenced by them, is because of the weather's insistence on an anti-racist, anti-imperialist, anti-sexist analysis was fundamental to my political development. Is, is that a correct statement?
RJ: 1:37:30
Yeah, I think it is still true. I mean, then, because I used to read a lot of their, their newspapers and so on, especially when I was living in New York City, they were harder to get over in [inaudible]. But by the time I was living in New York City and stuff, and I was in a different group, but between their stuff, and some of the other groups, that was pretty fundamental to me becoming to choosing the politics, I thought, because they were trying to figure out a way to bring all three of those together. And some groups were more just on the anti-sexism. Others were more just on the anti-racism, and others were more just on the antiwar. And they, the Weather Underground and a couple other organizations that were on the, I guess they would be considered extreme left for sure. Not as extreme left as Weather Underground. But over definitely over in that direction. I think they were the groups that were trying to figure out a way to combine all those and make it fit to (19)73 America.
SM: 1:38:28
Yeah, I am going to go into your second book now, which was "Daydream Sunset, the Sixties Counterculture in the Seventies." Could you define, I have heard a lot of people talking about this counterculture. And could you define what you mean as a counterculture? And, and I noticed you mentioned it was centered on LSD and marijuana, it was crucial to the counterculture. Could you go on to that?
RJ: 1:38:53
Yeah, I would say the counterculture was a culture that was made up primarily of white middle classes at the beginning, and it spread to the working-class youth as time went on. It was founded in person, the idea of like an, it evolved from the Beats, the whole Beatniks and the Beat stuff, you know, and that is where they got the marijuana from, and that is where they got, you know, some of the other drugs from, but I think it evolved organically, or through a combination of economic situation at the time, to the fact that there are so many young people gathering together in different places, whether that was the workplace or college or high school, whatever. And then I really think LSD made a big difference. And I would say, in large part because of people like Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey, who proselytized LSD, they both did it in their own way. But, so and then the, the easy availability of LSD for a while and the fact that places like Greenwich Village and the Haight-Ashbury in San Fran- in New York and San Francisco respectively, were gathering places for young for young kind of footloose youth who did not want to work much and so on. And those kinds of scenes just kind of gathered and they spread throughout-throughout the country and throughout the western world [inaudible] into other parts of the world. But I think fundamentally, it was a movement involved in personal freedom, and in discovering personal freedom, and at the same time, loosening the bonds of sexism, and [inaudible] periods of puritanism. And also, in trying to figure out a new way to live together in a postindustrial world.
SM: 1:40:48
You also mentioned, and you talk about the tragedies, particularly around (19)70 of Kent State, Jackson State, all happening in May of that year. And of course, that was all linked to Nixon and the Cambodian invasion, so many books have been written on it. Nixon still has stated it was never an invasion, we had already been in Cambodia before. And it was just, and it was not very, very long. But of course, the anti-war movement had different feelings on that. In terms of, were they part of the end of the counterculture?
RJ: 1:41:23
I think it was part of the politicization of the counterculture, because I think the counterculture kind of carried on for a while. It was like, it kind of went from sex, drugs, rock and roll and politics, just to sex, drugs and rock and roll. I mean, if you think of the mid (19)70s, you know, I mean you could kind of look at it in terms of the bands. You know, you went from bands that were political and intent to bands like Led Zeppelin, you know no, I mean, Led Zeppelin's fine, but they were definitely not a political band in any way, shape, or form, you know. And then, and then a lot, you think of some of the other music.
SM: 1:41:58
Disco.
RJ: 1:41:58
You know, some of the bands-
SM: 1:41:59
You got disco too. [laughs]
RJ: 1:42:02
Disco started coming in, disco started like, among the gays, and African Americans, you know, but then when it got taken over by mainstream America, pretty much with that [inaudible] Saturday Night Fever, was that what it was called?
SM: 1:42:15
Yes-yes.
RJ: 1:42:16
And that kind of, that all the sudden, you heard disco everywhere. And you know, I was not ever a fan of disco, because I really, it just was not for me. [inaudible]
SM: 1:42:32
Could you say that, could you repeat that again? I missed it.
RJ: 1:42:37
You know, as well as me that disco was everywhere, it was almost impossible to go someplace where there was not a disco club.
SM: 1:42:44
Right.
RJ: 1:42:44
So.
SM: 1:42:46
You also have it here, the and I, it is another quote, the period we call the (19)60s is as much a myth as it is a truth as much maligned as it is championed. Want to explain that any further?
RJ: 1:43:01
Yeah, sure. I mean, it really happened. That is the truth part. But what really happened depends on who you were and what you saw, and where you were, and how you [inaudible], you know. And in terms of history, it is definitely as you know, you read a lot of books and you know, from, you know, it depends on who's telling you the history. And so, and then the missed part is just the myth. You know, I mean, it is like, Woodstock was this great, wonderful festival. And it was, but at the same time, a lot of that is myth. And that is where it moves into that. And [inaudible], we have talked about that. It has continued to maligned. I mean, there are people who know from that preacher you hear, that radio preacher you are talking about all the way up to today like Pat Robertson and people like that who say, and Rush Limbaugh, who say that everything bad happened because of the (19)60s, you know.
SM: 1:43:55
Right.
RJ: 1:43:56
So, and then there is other people on the other side who champion it on a you know, who still live like with the rose-colored glasses. I think most people who are intimately involved in it- people like Wavy Gravy, people like the Grateful Dead, most of the band that made up the Grateful Dead, and all the regular stuff, they probably all have just people every day, [inaudible] I am, they all have their own different viewpoints, some less cynical than others, probably and some very jaundiced.
SM: 1:44:30
I want to I want to quote something from the front of your book, and I am going to put it in the record for the interview and I thought it was very well written here. It is about Jackson Browne. And this is about the disintegration of the counterculture. Do you mind if I quote this?
RJ: 1:44:45
Oh, go for it.
SM: 1:44:46
Yeah, it is, it is on the very beginning. In the introduction, songwriter Jackson Browne had a similar understanding of the disintegration of the counterculture. His two was both apocalyptic and lyrical. Brown's three songs cycle of "For Every Man," "Before the Deluge" and "Pretender" appears on three successive disks. And it is a story of a generation and a culture trying to change the world while facing an apocalypse of war and environmental devastation, and ultimately, a ceding to the hegemony of the world and the system that tried so hard to change. "The Pretender," which is the final song of the cycle is a depressing admission that the system of corporate television, war, and nine to five jobs was more powerful than the world of the counterculture hoped to forge if only because it had more developed Foundation. The song itself is a tale of surrendering to that world, and numbing oneself to the reality via sex, drugs and Rock and Roll. Well, I that you wrote that. That is great. Any-any other thoughts on that? Because, you know, this is again, the power of music, like go way back in our interview, how powerful music can be. You talk about Hunter Thompson in here too you, we really made it I mean, we have talked about, I always tell students, the dots, the dots that connect the dots, and music is part of that. And if you listen to a lot of that music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, you will see the dots connected within the music. Any other thoughts on, that you wanted on Jackson Browne, in the, in the record?
RJ: 1:46:30
There is, I talk about him and you know, I think it is pretty, I think it is pretty clear in terms of [inaudible] to those three songs. The middle one is about people fighting against the environmental devastation. And he was very big in the anti-nuclear movement, which was big in the mid (19)70s. And so that is kind of what he is talking about in that song, but in a much greater thing, he is talking about the counterculture in that in that generation. And then obviously in the last song, as I mentioned, there, you know, it is a song about a guy who goes to work, comes home, puts his glasses on, does some cocaine, has sex, wakes up in the morning, gets back in his car, goes to work dah-dah, dah-dah, dah, you know. There is a, in that, later on in that those first pages of that book, I talk about Bruce Springsteen, and he kind of came on board. He his first like National popularity was (19)75, when the "Born to Run" album came out, and Bruce was never a hippie, he was informed by the counterculture. He grew up in a working-class New Jersey, his dad was a factory worker and so on. And I think Bruce represents the (19)70s better than any other popular musician because of the way he chronicles individuals' lives first. In Born to Run, it is about people trying to get away from their dead [inaudible] you know, taking the same job in the same place that their dad had a job or their mom and then just racing or fast cars and then leaving, or trying to leave and then and falling in love and like trying to hide out on the beach in the summer and smoke pot or whatever. And then the next- and for him, it is about becoming a rock and roll musician as his way out of, of that life. Then the next album is "Darkness on the Edge of Town," which is basically about the people who did who get into the car culture. The town, I live in Maryland, on and off, my dad was stationed there, and then after I left moved out of there, my parents’ house, our culture was real big and like best people spent their money on, it was almost going back to the (19)50s. And then he kind of gotten he just follows that transcript, transition all the way up to people getting married, and getting divorced, and so on, always brings some of that reality about working, although being a member of the working class, and so on. And I think he really, he captures that that what happened to most people who are in the United States, most young people who are in the United States and who were not on the trajectory of college, and who were not on, who were not in the military, but who, you know, who were just trying to figure out how to how to make a life for themselves. And the counterculture gave them a lot of those kids hope that they could try something different. And some of them left their hometowns and went up to San Francisco or hit the road or started going to rock festivals or following the Grateful Dead around or something. But ultimately, most of them ended up, you have to face the reality of.
SM: 1:49:39
Right.
RJ: 1:49:40
And that is that is that economic hegemony that, you know, it just had more power, it won in its own way, but there are still elements that still exist throughout, throughout our culture.
SM: 1:49:54
Yeah, we talk about the two events that really were the watershed events. All the movements were important, but in Vietnam and the Civil Rights Movement, to me are the two that really make the (19)60s. Because with the Civil Rights Movement gave everybody experience and knowledge about how to protest. And, you know, they gave the kind of laid down some of the laws about protesting. And so those two, and I think, what is amazing about Dr. King is, when you think about Dr. King, he, he is one of the-the figures of the (19)60s because of the fact that he obviously, he believed in nonviolent protest, and he was involved in so many protests itself, the March on Washington, but it is that speech in (19)67, against the war in Vietnam, that links civil rights, and, and in the, in the anti-war movement in a very major way. Because toward the end of Dr. King's life, he was always talking about the economy and the economy. And he ended up dying, you know, in a city in Memphis, where the they were fighting for rights, the work was fighting for rights [crosstalk]
RJ: 1:51:04
Yeah, they were economic rights and to work yeah, exactly. To form a Union, yeah.
SM: 1:51:09
He is a, he is a major force, and he is a major force in my life because of who he is. And the mere fact that he lost a lot of friends in the civil rights movement for his stand on the Vietnam War. And so, it is a, it is, the (19)60s is just an amazing thing here. I have a question. A couple more questions. And then a couple of things to end. What are the most important books on the on the (19)60s that were written in the (19)60s or (19)70s that impacted you? I have a list here of a few, but what books did you read that had a great impact on you?
RJ: 1:51:43
Well, one of them was "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Another one was "The Greed of America."
SM: 1:51:51
Oh, yeah. Charles Wright?
RJ: 1:51:53
Yeah, yeah. Another one was, I am trying to think which one- "Revolution for the Hell of it" by Abbie Hoffman?
SM: 1:52:00
Okay.
RJ: 1:52:02
And then there was one by Tom Hayden, I cannot, I think it was about the Chicago 8 trial. I think it was just called "The Trial."
SM: 1:52:10
Yep.
RJ: 1:52:10
Those are, those are ones that come to my mind pretty much quickly. There is, there is got to be other ones, but I cannot think of them right now.
SM: 1:52:19
I have Hayden's books. All of his books were just amazing. I, the "The Armies of the Night" by Norman Mailer.
RJ: 1:52:27
Oh, yeah, absolutely. That is an incredible book. Yeah.
SM: 1:52:28
That was another one. Theodore Roszak's, "The Making of a Counterculture."
RJ: 1:52:30
Yep. Yep, that is yep, okay.
SM: 1:52:35
There was James Farmer's "Nigger," the book, that was very popular. Eldridge Cleaver, "The Soul on Ice"
RJ: 1:52:41
Soul on Ice, yep-yep.
SM: 1:52:42
James Kunen, "The Strawberry Statement," and Ron Kovic's "Born on the Fourth of July."
RJ: 1:52:49
Absolutely yeah.
SM: 1:52:50
And anything Tom Wolfe wrote.
RJ: 1:52:53
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" was-was crucial to me. So was "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" and "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail" by Hunter S. Thompson. Yeah.
SM: 1:52:54
Because Tom Wolfe- Yep. And the, another question here is, there were a lot of you know, slogans from the (19)60s. What were the slogans that after that whole era, say from (19)60, to (19)75 slogans that you remember that had an impact on you that were so well known at the time?
RJ: 1:53:21
[whispers] Oh, man.
SM: 1:53:22
Slogans from civil rights leaders, African Americans, antiwar activists, politicians anything.
RJ: 1:53:30
Okay, right on the Black Power thing, Black Power right on.
SM: 1:53:34
Right.
RJ: 1:53:36
The 2,4,6,8- no, no, "Hey-hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?"
SM: 1:53:43
Right.
RJ: 1:53:45
Trying to take a couple of the other ones. I am trying to think there were some at the antiwar protests, but I cannot really remember right now.
SM: 1:53:57
Malcolm X had one, "By Any Means Necessary."
RJ: 1:54:01
Yes.
SM: 1:54:02
And of course, Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone over 30."
RJ: 1:54:06
And "Do It."
SM: 1:54:07
Yeah.
RJ: 1:54:08
Just which-which Nike now uses I guess.
SM: 1:54:11
Yeah. I do not know how that some of these advertisers can get away with this stuff.
RJ: 1:54:14
Yeah-yeah, yeah.
SM: 1:54:15
I cannot believe that some of the people would approve, or their families would approve them to use some of these things.
RJ: 1:54:21
Maybe they it is it was not trademark, they cannot really do anything about it probably or something, yeah.
SM: 1:54:25
I would say that probably the one thing and this is just is that the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, even though as an organized group, they were not very large, I think they were one of the most influential antiwar groups in terms of moving regular Americans to start really challenging the war, besides the students, the students. I think, the VVAW, they are, it is difficult to measure how important they were in terms of changing middle America's mind about the war. I did not ask a lot of questions we were coming- we have now done two hours here, almost two hours. But I usually conclude by making some-some names for you to kind of respond to, but is there a question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask that you might want to respond to something that you want to state about the (19)60s or anything that I have been talking about, something that I have not asked? One of the things I noticed back then in the (19)60s to, you would have, I know, there was always the sexism within the antiwar movement and women in secondary roles. And that is a lot of the reasons why the woman's movement evolved. And even there was an issue with that with the nurses that served in Vietnam. I mean, it is a whole thing about when the wall was built, where were the nurses. So, it is like, there is a lot of that stuff. But one thing I did notice, and I would like your observations on this, too. When you look at the protests and the movements and so forth of the (19)60s, they would come together at protests, you will see, in the latter part of the (19)60s, you see, you know, the-the African American organizations, the women's groups, the gay and lesbian groups, and especially after (19)69, they would all be together in an antiwar movement. And they would come together. I asked David Mixner about this, I interviewed who was, you know, he was involved in both- the antiwar movement and-and he says, there is truth to this, that they are all separate now. The women's movement has their big rallies in Washington, the antiwar group, is basically the antiwar groups. It is, the gay and lesbian group [inaudible] their big events and so forth. And civil rights groups have those-they are not coming together, is-is my observation incorrect?
RJ: 1:56:54
I think it is more true than- no, I think it is pretty true. And I, I often wonder why that is, because when it comes to war, war affects everybody. And then also, I mean, I look over the years, and groups became more and more single issue in the late (19)70s, and going into the (19)80s, and into all throughout the whole (19)90s. And obviously, into the into this century. But I think part of it might be I mean, I-I am just filling stuff out there. I think part of it might be also because of the professionalization of a lot of the leaderships where they actually have these jobs and their organizations. Like back and back, like during the antiwar movement, there was only, there was only two or three antiwar groups that were at, that helped organize every single major antiwar demonstration. And even now, even those groups, the leadership was constantly changing, rotating itself. And they were not careers. Whereas I think a lot of times, nowadays, a lot of the social justice stuff, people make careers out of it. And you know, because it is done through an NGO or something like that. And that has a negative effect in one way and that it separates these groups. It also makes those groups more timid about joining things that might be more confrontational, because they might lose their funding from whatever philanthropic organization is giving them their money. So, there is, I mean, that is just one-one possibility, but I think that is absolutely true. I think they are more separate, even when there is big movements, like when they were going after the invasion of Iraq in 2003. And there were some pretty big protests. But–
SM: 1:58:38
Yeah, well, when I, when I interviewed David, he is a producer in New York, I guess. And he, he brought it up and he says, "Yeah, we have these big rallies for the gay and lesbian bisexual community. And they are, they are not reaching out to other groups." And he says, like, "I will see what I can do about that." I, he is a powerful leader in that community. But he is also involved in a lot of other things. So, I do not know what. I am going to conclude this if it is okay with you with just some personalities from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. I have a bigger list than this, but I will try to go fast. All you have to do is just give me a one- or two-word response.
RJ: 1:59:17
Okay-okay.
SM: 1:59:19
Tom Hayden.
RJ: 1:59:22
Solid, revolutionary–
SM: 1:59:26
Jane Fonda.
RJ: 1:59:34
Personality who made a lot of unpopular but morally right decisions.
SM: 1:59:41
Lyndon Johnson.
RJ: 1:59:44
A man caught between the war machine and his desire to help the poor.
SM: 1:59:49
Eugene McCarthy.
RJ: 1:59:54
Don Quixote.
SM: 1:59:56
Bobby Kennedy.
RJ: 2:00:00
A man who might have been able to unite the voting population of the United States.
SM: 2:00:05
John Kennedy.
RJ: 2:00:09
Somebody who died way too soon.
SM: 2:00:11
Dwight Eisenhower.
RJ: 2:00:15
(19)50s Classic.
SM: 2:00:17
Gerald Ford.
RJ: 2:00:19
(19)50s classic.
SM: 2:00:21
[laughs] Okay. Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon
RJ: 2:00:26
Joe McCarthy with a less ugly attitude.
SM: 2:00:29
[laughs] Dr. Benjamin Spock.
RJ: 2:00:36
Very moral human being.
SM: 2:00:39
Huey Newton. Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, the Black Panthers,
RJ: 2:00:45
Revolutionary heroes who never had a chance.
SM: 2:00:50
Malcolm X.
RJ: 2:00:52
Another revolutionary hero who was fated to die.
SM: 2:00:56
Jerry Rubin.
RJ: 2:00:59
A clown.
SM: 2:01:00
Abbie Hoffman.
RJ: 2:01:03
A clown with better politics.
SM: 2:01:05
Rodney Davis.
RJ: 2:01:12
A metaphor for a lot of people in, of his generation.
SM: 2:01:17
Timothy Leary.
RJ: 2:01:21
Self-centered, arrogant and very, very interesting.
SM: 2:01:26
Ralph Nader.
RJ: 2:01:31
Understated champion.
SM: 2:01:33
Hubert Humphrey.
RJ: 2:01:36
He got screwed.
SM: 2:01:39
Barry Goldwater.
RJ: 2:01:42
The beginning of the racialization of the Republican Party.
SM: 2:01:49
George Wallace.
RJ: 2:01:51
Racist.
SM: 2:01:52
Martin Luther King Jr.
RJ: 2:01:55
Hero.
SM: 2:01:56
Muhammad Ali.
RJ: 2:01:57
Another hero.
SM: 2:01:58
Spiro Agnew.
RJ: 2:02:04
Sucker.
SM: 2:02:06
Gloria Steinem.
RJ: 2:02:11
Intelligent, middle class, feminist.
SM: 2:02:16
John Lewis.
RJ: 2:02:20
So, oh, John. No, John Lewis, the African American guy?
SM: 2:02:24
Yes.
RJ: 2:02:26
A hero who made too many compromises.
SM: 2:02:31
Byard Rustin.
RJ: 2:02:33
Same. Hero who made too many compromises.
SM: 2:02:36
Richard Daley.
RJ: 2:02:40
I cannot say anything good about him.
SM: 2:02:42
Robert McNamara.
RJ: 2:02:44
I cannot say anything good about him either. He was an intellectual who wasted his brains.
SM: 2:02:49
Daniel Ellsberg.
RJ: 2:02:51
He was a hero and an intellectual who did the right thing.
SM: 2:02:55
Woodward and Bernstein.
RJ: 2:02:58
Too, they, you know, I wanted to- I am a little bit of a journalist. To me, what they did was one of the more heroic things of that time. So, they are heroes.
SM: 2:03:08
Angela Davis.
RJ: 2:03:10
Also a hero.
SM: 2:03:11
Bella Abzug.
RJ: 2:03:14
Fascinating and militant.
SM: 2:03:16
Jackie Kennedy.
RJ: 2:03:23
One of the strongest popular personalities and woman, women that I can think of.
SM: 2:03:30
And I got about five more. Walter Cronkite.
RJ: 2:03:35
He was the bearer of the news good and bad, but he always did it with a sense of justice.
SM: 2:03:41
And then musicians. Jimi Hendrix.
RJ: 2:03:46
Best guitarist ever, died too young.
SM: 2:03:48
Janis Joplin.
RJ: 2:03:54
A true, true hippie who could think.
SM: 2:03:59
The Beatles.
RJ: 2:04:01
They were kind of like demigods.
SM: 2:04:05
Elvis Presley.
RJ: 2:04:08
Almost the dad- almost the daddy of rock and roll.
SM: 2:04:11
And of course, and there are other musicians that you would like to put in there, solo or groups that that should really define the (19)60s if you want to add a lot more on to there?
RJ: 2:04:24
Just a couple, I would like to add Bob Dylan as the-the poet and Nobel Laureate in real truth actually now but of the genera- of the time, and the Grateful Dead as the people, the torchbearers of the counterculture.
SM: 2:04:40
Yeah, I will I will add Richie Havens on to this because to me, he was the symbol of the spirit of the era.
RJ: 2:04:46
Yeah, that is, that is good. That, his version of freedom in Woodstock movie says it all.
SM: 2:04:53 Yep. And so, I, that is basically it. I am done here now. Do you want to add anything else or finished?
RJ: 2:05:03
I think I am done also, thanks. Yep.
SM: 2:05:05
Yep, well what will happen here is we have got the copier, and this is on the digital machine. Now the guy, young man, set it up, and then I will turn it off. You will get a copy sent to you Ron.
RJ: 2:05:16
Okay.
SM: 2:05:17
It will either be sent through the computer or it will be sent to your home address. And, and now, if you could email your home address to me again, I so that we can mail it to you. And then, or we will do it over the computer, we have your email, and we will go from there. And then there is a form you have to sign too, but you have to listen to it first and approve it before anything- Okay, sure- is okay. It has been an honor to talk to you, I apologize for taking so long to do this. I did not know I was going to tear my knee up. And I have still got my crutch here to the side. And I will be interviewing John Sinclair sometime in the next month, I hope.
RJ: 2:05:56
Oh, that would be fun.
SM: 2:05:57
I can work that out. And, and then I do need some pictures of you. I need a couple pictures that you can mail to me because of the 275 people that I originally did, I think about 230 I interviewed them in person, the rest I did over the phone, so I have to get approved pictures from them, that ones that are over the computer.
RJ: 2:06:19
Okay, so I can just send you a couple?
SM: 2:06:21
Yeah, send me a couple that they have been approved. And if somebody took the pictures of you, you have to tell me who the person is.
RJ: 2:06:27
Sure, sure. Okay.
SM: 2:06:28
They have to get the credit for the picture. And look at and we have a bio, if you could do a brief bio and send it to me, unless there is a bio on the on the computer. That would be helpful too. Because what is going to happen is these tapes will all be available for research and scholarship. That for students and faculty, and they will be, the center will open I think at the end of this year or the beginning of 2020. And they are going to let them available for research right now. And we have got 105 Already done of the original group we have got- 31 died since I started this.
RJ: 2:07:07
Oh, wow.
SM: 2:07:07
So, I have gotten about 15 of those who died, the families to approve, but some of the people I cannot find, it is a big effort. But anyways, but you are going to- it is your important because your name will far outlive any book that I might have done for an oral history interview book. Because they will be people- we looks listening to your voice.
RJ: 2:07:28
Right.
SM: 2:07:29
And the tape 100 years from now.
RJ: 2:07:32
Right.
SM: 2:07:33
So that is what makes this project even more important.
RJ: 2:07:36
Yeah, thanks for doing it.
SM: 2:07:37
Yep. And again, thank you very much, continued success in all that you do.
RJ: 2:07:42
Thank you same to you and I will send that, I will get find some pictures and so on and send you that my mailing address and we will go from there.
SM: 2:07:52
Okay, great. Thanks Ron, have a great day.
RJ: 2:07:55
Yep take care you too. Bye-bye.
SM: 2:07:56 Bye.
(End of Interview)
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Ron Jacobs
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-05-03
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Wayne Coffey
Year of Graduation
1976
Biographical Text
An award-winning sports journalist and writer for the <em>Daily News</em> (one of NY's best papers back in the day).
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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Interview with Wayne Coffey
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Coffey, Wayne ; Gashurov, Irene
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An award-winning sports journalist and writer for the <em>Daily News</em> (one of NY's best papers back in the day).
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2019-05-03
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eng
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Wayne Coffey.mp3
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2019-05-03
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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58:40 minutes
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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In copyright
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
12 April 2019
Interviewer
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Aynur De Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Midya Khudur
Duration
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48:30 minutes
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Biographical Text
Midya was born in Mosul and lived there until 2002, before the fall of Saddam Hussein. She then moved with her family to Duhok and has been living there ever since. She came to the United States in the fall of 2018 to study at Binghamton University and get her Master's degree.
Keywords
Childhood; Mosul; Duhok; Kurdistan; Kurdish Diaspora; Kurdish Culture; Language; Kurdish Dialects; 2003 Iraq War; Saddam Hussein
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English
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Audio
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Midya Khudur
Interviewed by: Aynur DeRouen
Transcriber: Joseph Seif
Date of interview: 12 April 2019
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
AD: We are recording. So today is. We are good. Today is April 12, 2019 and we are here uh talk to
Midya. Midya for the record can you give us your full name?
0:22
MK: Yeah, my name is Midya Khudur, um.
0:26
AD: And can you briefly tell us where you are from, and since you are so young, you would not mind telling us when you were born and where?
0:38
MK: So, I am from the Kurdistan region of Iraq, but I was born in 1992. I first born, I was born in Mosul and then my family went to Duhok to the northern part of Iraq in 2002 before the fall of Saddam. And I stayed there until now, [mumbles] until I come to the States pursuing my master degree.
1:01
AD: Okay, so, eh, so can you tell us a little bit about your family? Like how many siblings do you have, what your father does, what your mother does? You know that kind of information.
1:17
MK: Okay, so my dad is an engineer, my mom she could finish high-institute school herself teaching, but then she could not work because like she got married [laughs] and then yeah. We are, we are four daughters and one brother. I am in the middle. Two of them, my two sisters who are older than me, are both married and having kids, and the two of them that are younger than me, they are not. They are still students, they are studying, yeah. And currently live in Duhok. Yeah.
1:52
AD: So, uh, your father works in Duhok?
1:57
MK: Yeah.
1:58
AD: And what kind of engineer?
2:00
MK: He is a Mechanical Engineer. Yeah.
2:02
AD: Okay, so, eh. You said you were born in Mosul and then moved to Duhok area. So do you remember, do you have any memory of uh, Mosul?
2:15
MK: So, I was nine year when I moved from Mosul, but I remember from it is my grandfather’s house and our house, the playground, my cousins, because it was like my grandfather’s house like the biggest one and then small houses besides it they were all like for who else and so me and I mean my cousins were always playing there. I always loved his garden, um, the food that we were cooking there, everything. I remember sometime uh, the school as well, because I was there for like, I stayed there until fifth grade for primary school, so I remember, yeah, a little bit about the school as well. Yeah.
2:57
AD: So, uh did you live in a. What kind of uh area? Or was it like this strict like mostly Kurdish people lived, or people lived from different background in the same area? I was trying to get the sense.
3:16
MK: Yeah, I think it was like a mixed area, because we were living in the center of Mosul, so I do not really, I do not really know how like the distribution of people back then, but I remember that we have Arab and other ethnicity group uh neighbors, yeah.
3:35
AD: So, were you like interacting with them? With the neighbors?
3:39
MK: Um, not that much, because I had my cousins, they all were my age, so I did not need to have like extra friendship. Yeah.
3:48
AD: So, you were basically hanging out with your cousins.
3:51
MK: Yeah true.
3:52
AD: So, how about your family, your parents, grandparents, do you remember that they were interacting with other neighbors?
4:02
MK: Yeah, I believe so, because usually like my father and uh my aunt, usually they talk about their memories at the university some of their neighbors. So yeah they have, they have their group of friends and so on. But because like we had a lot of relative there in Mosul, like all my uncles, so I think like most of our social communication things it was through that. With my uncles and relatives. Yeah.
4:34
AD: So, did your extended family also moved to Duhok area?
4:40
MK: Well they moved but I think we were almost the first one who moved? The moved after the fall of Saddam, after 2003 after situation got bad, in Mosul, yeah they moved to Duhok. Yeah.
4:52
AD: Okay. So, you do not have any family left in Mosul?
4:56
MK: No, no.
4:57
AD: So, all Duhok.
4:58
MK: Yeah.
4:59
AD: So, what did you think about Duhok when you moved there?
5:04
MK: Yeah so, so when I first moved from Mosul to Duhok, I was thinking yay it is cool, I am going to speak my language, with like my neighbors and friends and so on and so on. But then when I moved to Duhok I discovered that my accent is different from them. [laughs] Which is like another trouble. Because like when I was in Mosul, all students or my friends they would say, “she is Kurdish, she is speaking in a weird way”. And then when I came to Duhok they were saying “you speaking almost Arabic”, because I was influenced by the Arabic language so I present a lot of Arabic words in my language. But then it was strange for me like the biggest challenge that I always had is the language, because I speak a dialect inside the house and then, when I was a kid, I was speaking another language outside, which was Arabic. And then when I moved to Duhok, I like tried to speak their dialect and the other challenge I was studying in another dialect, which was like disarani [Kurdish language dialect] one.
6:00
AD: Yeah.
6:01
MK: So, basically, I was dealing with three dialects in my daily life. [laughs]
6:06
AD: Wow!
6:07
MK: Yeah.
6:07
AD: So, uh Mosul, you went to, like when you went to primary school, it was like the language was Arabic? I take it?
6:15
MK: Yeah true. Yeah, yeah true.
6:17
AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic?
6:20
MK: Uh, yeah, I was nine years when I came to Duhok. I kind of lost it. I still I could uh, read it and write it, but when communication, I kind of lost it at some point, but then I uh a lot of Arabs displaced and came to Duhok, so I had a lot of Arab friends uh short after I coming to Duhok, so that is how I could restore my language, the Arabic language fluency when it comes to talking.
6:50
AD: I see.
6:51
MK: Yeah.
6:52
AD: So, and is this language thing still going on? You speak different dialect at home, different at school, different on the street?
7:00
MK: Yeah.
7:00
AD: Still continuing?
7:02
MK: It is always like that. Yeah at home it is a dialect, and then with friends another dialect, and then with Arabs another language, and then with my English colleague another language. So I always have that struggle of language, yeah.
7:16
AD: So, did you correct your accent for them? Or stick to your accent?
7:22
MK: No, I correct my accent, but the thing is when I am with like close friends or like. So now I mean the formation of my language is a mix of Arabic, English and Kurdish, so like the person, I mean the person that I feel comfortable with, he should know all three languages so that understand me. Because I cannot be only restricted to one language, I cannot express myself that way.
7:46
AD: Yeah.
7:47
MK: Yeah.
7:47
AD: Well, that’s good though, right? It’s different.
7:51
MK: It is suffering. [laughs] I mean people, people they say it is good, especially if you write about those challenges, but it is kind of a suffering when it comes to, when you want to express yourself or when you want to belong to something. Yeah.
8:07
AD: Yeah.
8:07
MK: Yeah.
8:08
AD: So, 2002, uh how was Duhok? Like environment wise? Like when you move there? How was it?
8:18
MK: So, comparing to Mosul, Duhok the weather was nicer, we were having a lot of fruits there. [laughs] We were not having that much fruit, but I mean as an environment and as a city it was nice. I was not really developed back then, but it was a nice one. I liked it. Yeah.
8:33
AD: You liked it.
8:34
MK: Yeah.
8:36
AD: So, uh, do you remember when things were happening? Like, like the Saddam was missing, then they found him, they, you know. I mean you were very you ng, obviously, but do you remember? Because it was a big event–
8:57
MK: Yeah, yeah true.
8:58
AD: –And then how he was.
9:01
MK: Yeah, of course I remember. So when first the U.S. came to Iraq, we Kurds, we were scared, as though we were living in the [inaudible] rural part but, a lot of us got, I mean we went to villages to more secured area because we were worried. And we all like watching news, what will happen, and I remember one day um, so we went to a village. We stayed in a school with my other relatives it was a more secured area to stay. And once I remember, we woke up in the morning and the sky and the weather was, was so, um, uh, I do not know, um.
9:42
AD: Was it foggy?
9:43
MK: Yeah it was foggy.
9:44
AD: Okay.
9:44
MK: And people were so sacred, they thought it is chemical, uh–
9:50
AD: Yeah.
9:50
MK: Yeah from, they thought that they are like chemicals from Saddam, like he’s throwing on us again and we all like put this uh thing on our mouth to cover it and in our nose covered–
9:41
AD: So that is the collective memory right there.
9:43
MK: [laughs] You think so? Yeah, so I remember everyone was so scared until we discovered no it is just the weather, it is nothing to do with the chemicals. Yeah, but then like after that, when Saddam um, when American could take over Baghdad and so on, when uh we moved back to Duhok and then, and then like everyone was watching news, yeah I remember the town when Saddam got arrest. I remember the time when he was in the court and the other Ba’ath regime people and uh there were getting asked by the court uh, about their crimes and so on. Yeah I remember it very well yeah.
10:50
AD: Yeah, but you did not really live through the uh, you know like when the–
10:59
MK: Yeah.
10:59
AD: –Chemical weapon, like the Halabja, Anfal, all that. But your parents have the memory of those incidences.
11:06
MK: Yeah, I did not really live in that part, but the threat that Saddam have, to everyone even the Arab cities in Iraq. It is so much so, I remember when I was a kid, I was always threatened by my mom. Like to be careful when I speak. I mean because I remember, um I remember when I was a kid, I used to act as a broadcasting person and like doing news and talking about Saddam, inside the house and my mom would tell me “Midya how to shut up, what if one of his, his like troops are here or one of the police are here, he will arrest us because of you” so I always learn to be careful. And I also remember once in the school, so usually when it is Saddam’s birthday or whatever, so we all we have to yell at the highest frequency on our voice that uh “long life Saddam” so, and I needed to say it because like my, because my manager she was looking at me. It was one of the most disgracing moments in my life. [laughs]
12:10
AD: Yeah.
12:11
MK: Because, you were saying “long life Saddam” and so uh–
12:15
AD: How did you say that? Where you saying in Arabic or in Kurdish?
12:18
MK: Yeah in Arabic because like when it is his birthday, we needed to celebrate at the schools and everywhere, so like we would be like–
12:25
AD: What is the sentence? Tell me in Arabic.
12:28
MK: Uh [Arabic], something like that, yeah, yeah so, yeah so it’s like how it was that we all students we will march in the school and we would say that word, yeah. Yeah.
12:43
AD: Yeah that is [laughter] so you, you, there was like the fear was like imbedded in you, even though you did not really–
12:52
MK: True, true, yeah.
12:53
AD: You go through all that, uh, so uh, so which grade where you in when you were in Mosul? Or like Middle School?
13:03
MK: No–
13:03
AD: Or still elementary?
13:05
MK: Yeah elementary, I was in fourth grade, so I was like nine years old.
13:08
AD: Oh, nine years–
13:09
MK: Yeah.
13:09
AD: Okay, so uh and where did you go to university? In Duhok?
13:14
MK: Yeah, yeah.
13:15
AD: So, you did not go to Erbil.
13:17
MK: No, no I stayed in Duhok, yeah.
13:19
AD: Okay, so uh and every– But there were still some Arabic people in Duhok area, right? It was not just complete Kurdish?
13:30
MK: Yeah true, true. Yeah there were Arabic back then. And after the fall of Saddam, yeah, a lot of Arabs came and make it to live in Duhok.
13:44
AD: Duhok area. So uh, so where you interacting with those people or your family you know did you have any in your neighborhood?
13:53
MK: I do not remember exactly, no, in my neighborhood we do not have it but yeah we interacting, because there were student with us, uh, they were working with us, so, yeah I mean from that, yeah. And my dad had his like university time friends sometimes they would come, stay, tour in the area, yeah.
14:12
AD: I see, so uh, like how was the like the life growing up? Like what did you celebrate, what did you, you know like do like with your family or with your friends, like what were the major things. Like I do not want to give you ideas, but like for example like either religious holidays, or Kurdish holidays, like what were the things that you were?
14:45
MK: So, I am considered from the generation the lucky ones because at my time we could have our autonomous government, so we were reading in my language, celebrating Newroz, wearing our cloths. So, so I mean I do not really share any bad memory, just like my parents, so almost my memories they were good one. So like we were celebrating uh, our Eids, our, the Muslim feast, we were celebrating uh, Newroz, Yezidi’s one, Assyrian’s one. Uh and the way it was brought up, it was really easy for me because I was mostly going to school to university or not really having those high conflicts of politics in the time that I grow up. Yeah.
15:38
MK and AD: Yeah.
15:38
AD: But uh, how about your parents, like were they still like cautious even though they lived in a safer environment things like little settle down. You know what I mean.
15:54
AD: How-how do you know, uh, view that? Like ̶
15:59
MK: Actually, after the fall of Saddam, no. I mean almost all the Kurds, I think even Arabs who did not have that fear of Saddam any long. So we were life you are having a peaceful mind when it comes to Saddam and what he might able to do for us. So, no we did not have that fear, no, yeah.
16:20
AD: Yeah, so, uh, that is a good thing, because that lasted for a long time for several generations–
16:31
MK: True.
16:31
AD: –We have been interviewing like, what a big toll–
16:35
MK: True, yeah.
16:37
AD: –And their lives. Um, so then you wanted to come here.
16:44
MK: Yeah.
16:44
AD: To study?
16:45
MK: Yeah, true.
16:46
AD: Why?
16:46
MK: So, we are now in a developing stage and um, so I mean, true we could have our own autonomy and so on, but still we have other social things that we have to reconstruct to have a strong society, territory whatever, and education is one of them. Uh, I always wanted to have like a time of my life outside Kurdistan, getting exposed to other people, other environment and especially to other, a higher, a higher education, yeah. So that is how I could made it into here. Uh, I applied for a scholarship and I got accepted, and um, I also wanted that because now, because now the environment is getting so challenging when it comes to work, so it is like you are going to find everyone is trying to have Master. At the time when someone was having Master Degree, then that person would really have a good job, but now no, no longer matter. So now, everyone is trying to have a Master. Everyone is mastering in English language, so it is a very challenging environment right now. Plus when I.S.I.S. [Islamic State in Iraq and Syria] came to Iraq, it effected our economy. So much, so now, I mean, my generation we all like struggling to find a work and we are all struggling to improve ourselves. To have the best out of it. So, yeah.
18:15
AD: Mhm, okay, so. What did you think about this society when you came here? It is like, did you find it different, did you find it similar? Like what is your take on like. Did you first of all, did you directly come to Binghamton area? Or did you go somewhere else first, then came here? How did it work out?
18:40
MK: Do one of the things that the scholarship provide, is that you have one month of pre-academic course somewhere else. It was in Syracuse, which was almost the same as Binghamton. I was with other international students and then I came to here. The society is absolutely different um–
18:58
AD:In what regard?
19:00
MK: So, the amount of homeless people that are seen around the city is kind for shocked me. I did not expect that. Uh, I did not know that women and men get paid differently in the State, I was expecting something better. I did not know the conflict between people of color and white people. Plus, um, one of the struggles that I always have here is that the culture, because you know, we are from a very tense culture that we care about and, so coming people are so individualistic it is kind of, like it was surprising for me. At the same time, I am of course, I am impressed by the creative work that people here are doing how they impressing your knowledge, investing in it, hearing your voice. Um, I come here. I was, my, so my bachelor’s degree was English Language and Literature, I come here for comparative literature, I could never imagine that one day I am going to work in Kurdish Studies and now I am interested in that. If I was in Iraq I would not do it, because basically our education is so much like restricted, this the A.B.C.D. of your department, here no, you have more choices to develop it, so, it is something very interesting and, yeah I love it. I love it when it comes to the academic wise.
20:19
AD: Yeah, education wise. So did you get to meet with Kurdish people in this area?
20:26
MK: Yeah surprisingly, there is a high, uh, number of Kurdish community here, so. Yeah, the first time I come to Binghamton, a Kurdish driver took me to my place [laughs] that was–
20:38
AD: Did you know he was Kurdish? How did you find out he is Kurdish?
20:43
MK: I actually knew because, there was an Iraqi friend here, so that is how I could know about Binghamton and she like, I stayed with her for a half year. She told me there is a Kurdish driver, he said when you come I will take her to home. So it was nice, yeah. The first thing, he was the first, Kurdish person that I knew here, and then, I met with other students, yeah. And now I am staying in a house that is owned by a Kurdish landlord, yeah [laughs] the area, there are a lot of Kurds around. [laughs]
21:17
AD: Yeah, that is nice, right?
21:19
MK: Yeah, yeah.
21:20
AD: Yeah so, uh, do you uh, join like activities with them? Like how do you interact with the Kurd? I know that you are a student, but do you interact with them? If so how?
21:36
MK: Yeah, so my interaction, because like I have limited time, but, um, they helped me a lot when I was doing, when I moved from my house with other one, they invite me to their house. So there is one Kurdish family that I am in a close connection with them, I usually go there on weekends, or like, I mean like once or twice per month, having dinner or so. Yeah with them.
22:01
AD: That is nice, who are they?
22:04
MK: They are actually the owner of the building that I live in, yeah. Uh.
AD: The name? I do not think I know.
22:12
MK: Ekrem?
22:13
AD: Ekrem!
22:14
MK: Yeah, yeah.
22:15
AD: No, I do not think I know.
22:17
MK: Yeah, uhm.
22:18
AD: So when did he come?
22:21
MK: He came in the 90s with, yeah with the whole I mean the Kurdish community-
22:30
AD: So (19)96 area–
22:32
MK: I think so.
22:33
AD: Like a lot of them came during 1996.
22:35
MK: Yeah, I think so, yeah.
22:36
AD: Okay so he came during that time–
22:37
MK: Yeah.
22:37
AD: –I do not think I uh, I interview with him. So maybe you can put me in touch with him. [laughter] So, uh, so you just, so you basically interact with him than the others.
22:52
MK: I interact with him and his family, there is a Kurdish student I interact with him and his family as well.
22:59
AD: Kurdish student, like, like you from Kurdistan, or?
23:02
MK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
23:04
AD: Oh, so there are more?
23:05
MK: No, no, it is like Marwan.
23:07
AD: Okay.
23:08
MK: Yeah and there is a Kurdish lady, but she, uh, she like has the American citizenship. I know her through another friend as well, yeah. And I was, yeah. I was there in the Thanksgiving, yeah, in their house, yeah.
23:22
AD: That is nice.
23:24
MK: Yeah.
23:25
AD: Getting to know people. So did you build relationship with like other groups? Like Americans, or I do not know, different nationalities.
23:27
MK: Yeah, yeah; absolutely. So in the, it is one of the things in our department that we have weekly gathering, so, yeah I build relationship with Americans as well and other international student as well.
23:49
AD: So, do you hang out with them? Do things?
23:52
MK: Yeah, we do, like when I have time I do, yeah. [chuckles]
23:56
AD: Yeah because you are busy and then, most of your time goes for studies. So what did you do during the break? When you had a break?
24:06
MK: This break? Or like usually?
24:10
AD: Winter break.
24:11
MK: Oh, so the winter break, it was a miserable one, because all my friends [laughs] are not here, so I was just basically on Netflix, or studying, not studying actually reading or whatever. Um so yeah, that how I mean, that is the longest break that I had so far. And the winter break, that was the winter break, the spring break, I was also busy with studying. Yeah.
24:33
AD: Yeah spring break I never consider it spring break.
24:36
MK: Yeah as a break.
24:38
AD: Spring break is a time to study.
24:40
MK: And usually, professors use that to give more homework. [laughs]
24:43
AD: Exactly, right? So best time to catch up, yeah.
24:46
MK: [laughs] True.
24:47
AD: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Uh, so spring break, and then the Thanksgiving break. I never, never understood how people can go have a vacation–
25:59
MK: True.
25:00
AD: –Like this is time to catch up, yeah.
25:04
MK: True, yeah.
25:05
AD: So, uh, now the summer is coming. What are you planning for summer? So this is going to be a very empty campus during summer.
25:15
MK: Yeah, I am planning to tour around the state, the places that I am interested in, yeah, and part of I will dedicate it for working on my thesis, maybe if I find an internship or to work. But like basically yeah, my basic aim is to tour around the state [laughs] and to study.
25:35
AD: Alone, or do you have friends, or–
25:38
MK: So that depends, uh, because a lot of my friends, even the international ones are going back home, it depends. So, but, I think I will have like at least one or two. [laughs] Yeah.
25:48
AD: Okay, so there is a big, you know, Kurdish community, like Iraqi Kurdish in Nashville area–
25:58
MK: True.
25:58
AD: –You know that right.
26:00
MK: Yeah.
26:00
AD: Do you have any like, family or friends that?
26:05
MK: Mhm, no, not really.
26:07
AD: No?
26:07
MK: No, no
26:07
AD: No, because I think that is like the biggest Kurdish community–
26:13
MK: True, true.
26:14
AD: –Uh they call it like little Kurdistan, I think.
26:17
MK: True, yeah, yeah.
26:18
AD: So, you do not have anyone–
26:20
MK: No.
26:20
AD: –You do not know anyone.
26:21
MK: No. [laughs]
26:24
AD: Yeah, you will be fine.
26:26
MK: Yeah, I will be fine. [laughs]
26:28
AD: Yeah, yeah, so how long, uh, will you stay here? So you will definitely have next fall.
26:37
MK: Yeah, so next fall is my last semester here, I will be home in December.
26:43
AD: Oh, so you decided so that– or that is the rule for your scholarship that you have to–
26:49
MK: It is yeah. I mean, because like my, I finish my Masters until then. So, so when I finish it is one of the regulations that I go back home, yeah and after that I do not know whether if I want to continue for Ph.D. here or not. I do not know, it really depends. As I told you, it is so challenging now the working environment, because I am even not sure if I go back home I am going to work with my own specialization or no. Everything depends in the time when I go back home and if I get out of the situation.
27:19
AD: Are you planning on going for you Ph.D.? Do you, do you want to go? I am not saying you are going, but–
27:29
MK: I may do it if I know that I will work in the academic field, yeah, yeah.
27:35
AD: So, do you want to come to the States, not necessarily here, do you want to do it in the States, or?
27:45
MK: It also depends in what I am going to teach so I am currently I am so much interested in Kurdish studies. If that really go on, there is the University of Exeter they have–
27:55
AD: In England, yes.
27:56
MK: –Yeah they have department for Kurdish studies, I do not know, I am just daydreaming. Or maybe here because like I love it here as well, because there are some Universities who have Kurdish Studies, not specifically Kurdish Studies, but they have, they have some department that are dedicating for that.
28:14
AD: There are some universities in the States related to Kurdish Studies.
28:19
MK: Is it the one in Florida? I have heard about one in Florida and Chicago?
28:24
AD: Yeah, Chicago, yes.
28:26
MK: Yeah, yeah but they do not, they do not give courses I think, right?
28:32
AD: I do not know the exact details, but they are providing like Kurdish language courses–
28:40
MK: Yeah.
28:40
28:40
AD: –I think it is getting there. It does not happen very quickly–
28:44
MK: True.
28:44
AD: –It takes time, but it is not like Exeter by any means. Because that has been established–
28:51
MK: True.
28:51
AD: –A while ago, so I think they are trying to establish here as well.
28:58
MK: True.
28:58
AD: So, uh, it, but it is interesting. So, it took you to come to United States to figure out that you are really interested in Kurdish Studies. [laughs]
29:10
MK: Yeah. [laughs] It was always amused but you know when you go to an external environment you get exposed to the question of your identity so much.
29:20
AD: Right?
29:20
MK: Yeah, yeah.
29:21
AD: So now you are Kurdish, so you were not even aware of that, now your Kurdish identity became stronger.
29:29
MK: It became stronger especially when you find in other nations that how the studies have developed and yours is not that much developed, so it becomes a challenge why, why it is not developed, we have to work on it, yeah, yeah.
29:43
AD: Absolutely.
29:43
MK: Yeah, yeah.
29:44
AD: Absolutely, that is a good thing. So do you have like uh, traditional clothing with you? Do you wear it like during special days?
29:56
MK: I actually brought with me, but so I have not been to any [laughs] Kurdish celebration. [laughs]
30:05
AD: Any weddings to go?
30:06
MK: –There was a Kurdish wedding I was invited, but I was in New York, so I could not wear it. [laughs] Yeah.
30:15
AD: So, do you wear, uh, traditional clothing. Like when do you wear it? In Duhok–
30:18
MK: Ah, okay.
30:18
AD: –When you are living in Duhok what are the occasions you wear those cloths?
30:26
MK: So, usually a lot of girls wear– usually the old women wear it all the time. Girls in my age they wear it inside the house, some of them, but for me it is not that much comfortable to wear it inside the house. So I usually wear it at Newroz and in weddings, and sometimes in celebrations, like if there is feast or something, sometimes I wear it into celebrations as well, yeah.
30:50
AD: So, everybody wears it like when–
30:54
MK: Yeah.
30:54
AD: –Like let us say Newroz, that is like very uh important. So, every– like– Do Kurdish people go– like in Duhok, I am not talking about in United States–
31:08
MK: Yeah.
31:08
AD: –Go with like regular clothing, or they all wear?
31:11
MK: In Newroz? No like, most of them wear the Kurdish cloths, yeah.
31:17
AD: Yeah.
31:17
MK: Yeah, yeah.
31:18
AD: That is just like the tradition.
31:21
MK: Yeah, true, yeah.
31:24
AD: Yeah, so do you have any questions to ask uh Midya?
31:31
JS: Um, not really, well actually maybe, maybe on the religion front. Um, how is religion different from in Kurdistan than here? Like, is there–
31:43
MK: You mean for me personally or the community, the Kurdish community?
31:49
AD: Both.
31:49
JS: Both [laughter]
31:50
AD: Start with personally then tell us what your observation.
31:57
MK: For me personally I am not a very religious person, I do pray and fast, but I am not very restricted to religious person, so for me it is kind of the same. In both countries. For the Kurdish community here, I feel like some families are struggling to keep the traditions and to keep their kids on the track they used to be and others cannot control it. So I have seen two types of Kurds here, the Kurds who are, uh trying to do at least praying and fasting and the Kurds who are like no, I mean they no longer caring about that. So, I have seen those two types, yeah. And I think it is a struggle for Kurdish parents to keep their kids on the track especially in the State. Yeah.
32:46
AD: Yeah.
32:46
MK: The track that they want, I mean. Yeah.
32:48
AD: Because kids, react.
32:51
MK: Yeah, because they are basically American, yeah.
32:54
AD: Yeah, absolutely so, uh, the other thing is, when– So, religion is one of them you think people are losing. What I mean losing, it is like uh the kids react to it–
32:12
MK: Yeah.
32:13
AD: –They do not want to follow strict–
33:15
MK: True.
33:16
AD: –Rules–
33:16
MK: Yeah.
33:18
AD: –Uh what else, like your observation, what else do you think, uh, is disappearing in Kurdish culture. Like what is continuing and what is disappearing?
33:30
MK: What I founded amazing that even young people here speak in Kurdish, which is, I did not expect that because they grown up in the State, but they do speak it and I do not know why. Is it because there is a large community here or because it is like how they grown up? Um what was the question? [mumbles] [laughter]
33:52
AD: Or like– So language–
33:53
MK: My observation–
33:54
AD: –Your observation.
33:55
MK: Ah, okay. The other observation, uh, I think the Kurdish parents are kind of struggling with their kids because I mean now with the globalization all the parents are struggling, because all of them they are like from the old generation, they were not exposed to it, and now… because even, because even parents in Kurdistan are struggling that. So here the conflict it is higher, because they, they want their kids to, for example, to be married, to follow certain norms and now because they cannot embrace that. It is not something that belongs to them. So I think this one of the struggles I have noticed here, yeah, yeah.
34:38
AD: So, uh, I know they want people to continue to marry, because those were the answers when I asked the question continue to marry Kurdish people, or girls or boys and then like keep it together, but uh I think there were some students that I knew that they are like dating or seeing other people. So, did you also observe that?
35:12
MK: Yeah, and I observed this hard for their parents to cope for that, but–
35:16
AD: Yeah.
35:17
MK: But yeah, like they are human. I mean they–
35:18
AD: They live in a society–
35:19
MK: –Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah–
35:19
AD: Yeah.
35:19
MK: I have observed that, especially the, the younger generation, um they, they basically, I mean, they cause, but they are living an American life, so it is so normal for them to be with another couple that is not, another person that is not really Kurdish and, but I think that is a struggle for their parents. Yeah.
35:46
AD: Yeah, so do you think the community here is still keeping the Kurdish identity?
35:57
MK: Mhm, to some extent, it varies from one family to another, but I think to some extent, not like that much strong, but it is not even that much lost as well. So, it really, so the parents here they could keep it for– They could keep it, they could invest that somehow in their kids. Now it depends on the kids on how they going to invest it on the coming generation.
36:22
AD: Yeah, will they marry another Kurdish person, for example–
36:27
MK: So basically, will they speak in Kurdish with their kids, or tell them the traditions or no, yeah.
36:34
AD: Yeah.
36:34
MK: Yeah.
36:34
AD: Like also the– Do you see people, like constantly cook Kurdish food, or they started to switch to like American, like you know, American food?
36:53
MK: I do not have that much interaction, but from the family that I have met uh I think they are– I do not think– Because the family that I met they really do the Kurdish food, and I know some of them are still like that. But I do not know about all of them. Yeah, yeah.
37:11
AD: Yeah, and then whenever you see them it is probably special day, so that is all you see–
37:17
MK: True.
37:17
AD: Is Kurdish food ̶
37:19
MK: True, yeah.
37:20
AD: Yeah, because traditionally, uh, you know, you make the Kurdish bread and even Marwan told me that there is a special kind of–
37:33
MK: Dough?
37:33
AD: –Yeah, needs to be brought here, so and then some people have in their homes. But like how many people have it, and how many much. Like when you have a full-time job, how are you going to do that?
37:46
MK: Yeah, I think, no, I think like to certain extent I think they are– because basically people who live in the Kurdish territories they are not that much committed to cooking food. But so, I think here– yeah, I do not think that they are doing, backing bread, or doing harder stuff, I do not think so. It might be only on special occasions. Yeah.
38:14
AD: Yeah, even in Kurdistan they stopped religiously doing that kind of hard work, labor intense cooking I would call that.
38:24
MK: Yeah, yeah especially the younger generation, because–
38:27
AD: Because they work? Right? When you work full time, how are you going to have time to go home and start making the dough and–
38:35
MK: True.
38:35
AD: –To make the bread. It is hard.
38:37
MK: True.
38:37
AD: Twenty-first century.
38:41
MK: Yeah.
38:41
AD: Absolutely, so anything else? That was a very good question by the way.
38:48
JS: Thanks. [clears throat]
38:49
AD: I am thinking if there is anything else, uh.
38:54
JS: I cannot really think of anything.
38:55
AD: Yeah, I cannot either; do you have anything else to add?
39:01
MK: Maybe the conflict of identity that Kurds are facing now?
39:04
AD: Yeah, yes.
39:05
MK: Mhm, yeah so–
39:05
AD: –So that is another issue liking in diaspora ̶
39:15
MK: Even actually I think– because now like– So it is since 90s we are having our autonomous uh territory and we are studying in Kurdish, we are seeing all the labels in Kurdish, we are celebrating our own traditions and so on. So, the Kurdish new generation, I think the conflict now higher than before when it comes to identity. We longer living wars, we are no longer– So now like we, we no longer really interacting that much with people, I mean except if they like displaced people or workers of whatever, but we are not– We are no longer, in out check points, we are having Arabs people telling to show us your identity or whatever. So, the whole conclusion is that we ask Kurds who raise up after the 90s, our sense of identity is hard than before that, we cannot, we cannot– It is hard for us to tell we are Iraqis, so especially when it comes to diaspora. So once one of my German friends told me “I was with– I went to the barber and he was Kurd and I told him, where are you from? He told me, I am from Kurdistan. He said it was talking for me you guys say you are from Kurdistan.” And I was like yeah I think that we Kurds we are now living in this conflict of identity, which one to impress, we know that we are Kurds, but at the same time we know that there is no word of Kurdistan that exist in a map or official documents. So I think this conflict of identity now is highly affecting on us, uh our daily interaction because even like with our other Arab friend it is hard for them to understand– It is not harder, but like it is hard to accept the idea that we are a different identity group. We are different ethnical group. So, so I think now that new generation we are struggling when it comes to identity, and especially in diaspora. So I think that we are always lost in this, the amount of language that we are embracing since we have a grown up, than the amount of identity that, I am Kurdish, but then when I have in my passport is Iraqi, then do I really belong to this Iraq, or no? and then when I go the diaspora I am exposed to other identities, so I do not know whether it is even it might be even the modern age fever, that everyone is having this conflict of identity to what we belong to truly. But now for me, especially, after I came to the State, now it is even more tense. What is my identity, what do I belong to really? So, yeah, yeah. I think now, this is like one of the hot topics that is in the Kurdish brain– people– young generation mind, the identity.
42:15
AD: Absolutely.
42:15
MK: Yeah.
42:16
AD: But uh, even though you know Saddam is gone and you know thankfully hard days are over, uh, but you know Kurdish people came a very very long way, so and then kept the identity going–
42:37
MK: Yeah, true.
42:38
AD: –And not just in Iraq, look in Iran, especially in Turkey–
42:43
MK: Mhm, True.
42:44
AD: –So and, so I think it is one of the very strong identities, like among people that–
42:54
MK: Yeah.
42:54
AD: –I met. Even though, it is normal, all those factors are very valid, but uh.
43:06
MK: Yeah, true.
43:08
AD: You know even the people, like uh, I met or I read like they lost a lot of aspects of Kurdish culture, maybe they do not really know the history of it anymore–
43:25
MK: True.
43:25
AD: –But when it comes to the question, what is your identity and then they are like oh I am Kurdish. [laughs] You know, you know what I mean.
MK: True, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
AD: Very interesting, it is like they cannot really tell you solid thing. Like there are a lot of Kurdish people in Germany for example. They lost a lot of things–
43:47
MK: Yeah true.
43:48
AD: –But when it comes to the question, oh yeah, I am Kurdish. [laughs]
43:52
MK: True, true, yeah-yeah true, true, yeah.
43:54
AD: So that is promising in a way. [laughter] So, yeah but it is it is a big problem.
44:05
MK: Yeah, true, the identity is a big problem. Especially it is conflict between us and other ethnicities, which we do not really love it, I mean I personally I do not really like it, but–
44:15
AD: Yeah.
44:15
MK: –It is what it is. [laughs]
44:18
AD: That is right, that is right.
44:20
MK: Yeah.
44:20
AD: And religion in this area I talked to two different people. There is a group they are very religious, and then there is a group they are not religious at all, so. And that is the case living in Duhok, right? Not everyone is religious–
44:39
MK: True.
44:39
AD: –Or in any society. So people. In this place you know, not everyone goes to church every Sunday and some people do and some people– So, that is normal.
44:52
MK: True.
44:54
AD: That is a normal thing. Uh, I think, but language, religion, identity, that is all important aspects of the Kurdish diaspora–
45:11
MK: True.
45:12
AD: –We examine today.
45:14
MK: Yeah, true.
45:15
AD: So, I cannot think of any other question.
45:20
JS: I think we covered a good portion. I cannot think of anything either.
45:25
AD: Yeah, I think, I think because uh, you know, you are actually the second– Actually you are the youngest person so far–
45:36
MK: Oh really?
45:37
AD: –We interviewed, so your perspective is totally different because you do not have–
45:43
MK: Yeah.
45:44
AD: –You do not have the memory–
45:45
MK: True, yeah.
45:46
AD: –Of what your parents went through–
45:48
MK: Yeah, true.
45:49
AD: –You have little bit of things through them–
45:52
MK: Yeah.
45:52
AD: –But thankfully you do not have that memory, uh, and so it is different.
45:58
MK: Yeah, it is different true.
45:59
AD: Yeah.
45:59
MK: Yeah.
46:00
AD: So, do you have anything else like regarding your experience living here <clear-throat> uh related to society or related to Kurdish community, or anything you want to add?
46:26
MK: Mhm, no nothing in my mind so far. [laughs]
46:29
AD: Okay, but they were really helping and accepting toward you when you came here.
46:35
MK: Oh yeah, because when I was back home, I was like I wish I do not meet Kurdish, because like I sick of my society I wanted to go somewhere there were not any Kurds, but when I came here I realized that it is really important to know some people and there were really– I mean like they were so generous and helpful and I was like surprised. I mean like, I was like wow, I mean I should have, I should not have been so weird about it at the beginning. [laughs] Yeah because they really, they really helped me so much especially when I first moved to here, yeah.
47:06
AD: That is nice.
47:07
MK: [laughs] Yeah.
47:07
AD: Yeah, so you did not want that and that happened and then–
47:11
MK: No, I did not want that, I want go to society that is completely different one, but– yeah, but.
47:13
AD: How did the– Like did you pick Binghamton University, or the Fulbright [name of the scholarship] people decided where you are going based on your studies?
47:21
MK: It is basically, they tell us to suggest– So I never knew that Binghamton has the Kurdish community, but it is like, it is what they, they selected actually, they tell us to do some selection, but eventually it is them who select and decide, yeah.
47:32
AD: So, and you selected because of the faculty, or like what a department has to offer–
47:54
MK: I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:56
AD: Yeah, yeah, and then having the Kurdish. [laughter] community was a bonus. [laughter]
48:06
MK: True, that was something I should be thankful about it, I did not know about it. [laughter] True, yeah.
48:12
AD: Okay, well thank you so much for you time and–
48:16
MK: Yeah, no thank you.
48:17
AD: –I wish you good luck and I am sure you will do just fine.
48:25
MK: Inshallah [God willing]. [laughs]
48:27
AD: Inshallah, okay, all righty.
48:28
MK: Thanks a lot, I am sorry for the bad language–
(End of interview)
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Interview with Midya Khudur
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-03-01
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Steven M. Weiss
Year of Graduation
1970
Biographical Text
Steven Mark Weiss is the president of Straightforward Communications, a marketing and research consultancy in consumer demography and trends. His clients have included Hilton Hotels, Denny’s and the California Department of Agriculture. A magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University and of the Culinary Institute of America, Steve spent the early part of his career as the executive food & beverage editor of <em>Restaurants & Institutions</em> magazine. His work earned him a Jesse Neal award for editorial excellence from the American Business Media. For nearly a decade he was the regular columnist of <em>QSR Magazine</em>. He is also an award-winning journalist with 25 years’ experience as a marketing and management consultant to the food service industry. Steve resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, and serves as vice president of the Arizona Society of Astrologers. He has written books on astrology, including <em>Signs of Success</em>, which represents his lifetime avocational interest in astrology.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College - Seventies alumni; Harpur College - Alumni in the food industry; Harpur College - Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College - Alumni in astrology; Harpur College - Alumni in journalism
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Steven M. Weiss
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 1 March 2019
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SW: 00:02
I am Steven Weiss Harpur College, class of (19)70. I am in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am being interviewed by Irene Gashurov for the for the Binghamton Library Archives. Nope. Okay. Well, start again. [inaudible]
IG: 00:26
It is for the Binghamton alumni. It is going to be an audio a collection of audio recordings with alumni from the (19)60s and early (19)70s.
SW: 00:42
All right [crosstalk]
IG: 00:44
Sixties collection [crosstalk] yes, I do, I do. Okay, so let us start from the beginning. Where did you- you said you grew up in Brooklyn.
SW: 00: 53
I grew up in Rigo Park in Queens. Went to Forest Hills High School. I was born in Brooklyn.
IG: 00: 57
I see, I see. So, who were your parents? What did they do? Do they encourage your education?
SW: 01:08
Yeah, I think I was. We were in a culture where education was valuable.
IG: 01:12
Yeah.
SW: 01:13
My father was an executive in the camera and photography industry. Worked for a variety of companies, and my mother was a housewife.
IG: 01:26
Are you one of several children, or?
SW: 01:29
I am an only.
IG: 01:29
You are an only.
SW: 01:30
Yes.
IG: 01:31
You are an only- so you went to Forest Hills High School? How did you decide to go to Harpur College?
SW: 01:41
Do you know, on one level, it was as simple as being an affordable college, but-but that that denigrates or plays down the fact that it was considered a good college, even, even back in the (19)60s, I remember a New York Times article that everyone liked to quote, that that Harpur was the public Swarthmore, that that got a lot of play on the campus at that time and-and so. So, the idea I-I had in my mind to perhaps go to Tufts and in Massachusetts, but, but really, for a lot of people of my generation and our socio-economic class, you went to either Harpur or you went to Stony Brook, yeah, Harpur, if you were interested in liberal arts, Stony Brook, more for science.
SW: 01:42
More for science. That is that is interesting. So, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study?
SW: 02:32
Until-until my freshman English class, I did. I-I had intended to go to Harpur and study political science with-with the notion that I would go into law, because that was that was appropriate at the time. But my freshman English teacher changed everything about my life.
SW: 02:49
Let us hear about it. Who was the freshman English teacher?
SW: 02:49
My freshman English teacher was Zach Bowen, who was an eminent James Joyce scholar, and in fact, he eventually moved from Harpur to become the chairman of the department of the English department the University of Delaware. And then from there, after several years, he went to the University of Miami in Florida and became their chairman. But-but Zach was a- anyone from my generation who encountered Zach, he was an enormous, jolly, wise, funny man, and for better or for worse, he took a liking to me to my work. And when I told him that I was going to major in political science, he sort of laughed at me and said, "No-no, you are an English major." [laughter]
IG: 03:38
That is great.
SW: 03:39
He put me in that direction.
IG: 03:40
So, he claimed you as one of his own.
SW: 03:44
I think that is a very good, apt way of putting it, yes.
IG: 03:47
So, what kind of mind-expanding things did you learn in that, you know, with this professor? What-what did you learn?
SW: 03: 56
I hope this is not too much of a segue, but you know, to think about I have been thinking about this because I know I was going to have this, this moment with you and-and I realized that it is, it is, it is obvious that we want to abstract generalities that make sense. You know, generational, generationally and collectively. But my generation, we were so individualistic, for better or for worse, that that, you know, it was part of the tapestry right of life. So-so-so I responded to Zach because he was totally avuncular and smart and funny, and a guy that I that I admired immediately, and it looked like what he was doing was fun. And so, there is that, there is that personality context where a young man looking for-for examples, not-not idols. Idols is too strong a word, but people [crosstalk] or just people that you could, you could model behavior on. You know that, oh, I could be this guy someday, and Zach was, Zach was that for me. But then there is also the-the coursework itself, being exposed to things like the Odyssey and the Aeneid and some of the, you know, some of the earlier classical literature. I believe we read some, if I am not mistaken, we read some classical Greek tragedy, and immediately that captivated me, and as captivated me my entire life.
IG: 05:21
Right.
SW: 05:22
Mythology.
IG: 05:23
Have you studied different kinds of mythologies?
SW: 05:27
I was, it turned out that I was not really an academic at heart, although I did have a I had a teaching assistantship. I was working on my Master's at Binghamton as well. I did very well in school, and I took, I took coursework very seriously, but, but another teacher who had an influence on me was a was an associate professor by the name of Betsy Oswald, who is a talented novelist, and she was teaching, she was my first writing teacher, and between Zach and Betsy-Betsy-Betsy convinced me that I was, I was cut out for writing, and so I found out that I was more of a journalist than I was a scholar. So-so not that I ever turned my back on mythology, but I did not choose to pursue the mythology as a as a career aspiration, the writing became more of an aspiration.
IG: 06:16
That is wonderful that you discovered it so early in your life, right?
SW: 06:23
I had been writing for, for, you know, for, I am the sort of guy who was in grade school, was writing for the other school magazines. I would always been writing. But I needed someone to confirm that that was something that one did, that it was okay to be what to aspire to be a journalist or to be a writer, and I think I needed someone to say, yeah, that is okay. "Yeah, that is what your talent is, and that is what your desires do it."
IG: 06:47
I mean, did you become a journalist after that?
SW: 06: 50
Yes-yes. I, well, I decided that that in order to be after my, after my-my Harpur, my Binghamton years, I felt that in order to be a journalist, I needed to have a specialty. That it was not just another I was not a general assignment reporter, and one of my lifelong interests was, is food. I come from a Jewish, Italian family, that is all we are interested in. So, I went to the Culinary Institute of America and got a chef's training yes in Hyde Park, New York, and put culinary and journalism together. And I spent several years as a as an editor of a major restaurant publication out of Chicago.
IG: 07:33
Wow.
SW: 07:35
Restaurants and institutions were-
IG: 07:37
So, you were food critic?
SW: 07:38
I was a food critic here in Phoenix for a while, but mostly I was, I was a I was working in the business press, as far as the restaurant and food industry went, so I was rather than, rather than a critic. I was, I was, let us say, an ally. I was more interested in what made a restaurant great than-than judging whether it was great.
IG: 08:01
How do you mean, how it is sale, it is revenues, and-
SW: 08:07
Yes, exactly, or-or as what became my, what became my major interest was, in fact, marketing and-and-and analysis of dietary habits and preferences you are looking this-this book is that kind of a book. For seven or eight years, I was the executive food editor of a magazine called restaurants and institutions, which was the largest, largest trade publication in the restaurant industry. So, I my job was to find out what they were doing and how they did it, and if they were willing to share with other restaurateurs. And I had a pretty international beat on that, so I got to go and eat a lot of great places and stay in a lot of great places.
IG: 08: 52
What are among your I mean, we are veering off topic, but this is, personally so interesting. So, what- so when-when was this period of work. When did it take place in the-
SW: 09:04
The period of work was from about 1975 after I graduated the Culinary Institute of America, to about 1981.
IG: 09:11
Okay.
SW: 09:12
When I moved down here.
IG: 09:14
When you moved in 1981 so, you reviewed, you reviewed, you know successful New York restaurants. Do you any, any stand out in your mind?
SW: 09:25
Oh, absolutely. [crosstalk]I do not want to the honest truth is that the great, the greatest restaurant company, probably that ever existed in New York, at least during my-my lifetime, was Restaurant Associates, and they were the company that did the Four Seasons and Forum of the 12 Caesars and-and the really great restaurants of their time. And the general, the gentleman who was responsible, you know, who led that company was, his name was Joe Baum, and Joe did all of these restaurants. And then he kind of just disappeared from the scene, and all of a sudden, his name came up attached to a project which was called the World Trade Center. And I so I called, I called Joe, because I knew him a little bit. I said, "Look, you know, you are a great restaurateur, and this is really interesting, what you are doing here." So, I made my-my reputation in the restaurant industry, writing an enormous article, I wrote one of the first articles about the integrated restaurant. I concept behind the World Trade Center, from the from the top that from the top of the building, to-
IG: 10:33
Windows on the world.
SW: 10:34
-windows on the world--got married there as a matter of fact—and-and to-to the marketplace, which was the concourse area, to the sky lobbies, which had restaurants on the 44th floor, but it was a very brilliant, integrated restaurant system. That is the sort of thing I wrote about. How did you- how does someone possibly create and then manage and run this kind of restaurant? So-so like on the on the on the creative level, the people like James Beard were coming in to-to brainstorm and-and then-then the actual building and running of it was another fascinating story, interesting to my readers.
IG: 11:12
Right-right, no, interesting, interesting to any reader. And James Beard was brought in to consult on the menu, or?
SW: 11:20
Yes, in fact, Joe Baum was a brilliant, brilliant man. The restaurant industry misses him, but he would, he would invite, invite James Beard into his office and just let James Beard free associate about what American cuisine should be, what American upscale cuisine, and he would talk, he would talk about, I have listened to some of these tapes. He would talk about brioche, lighter than air, floating off into the into this sky, and it was fantasy, but, but, but Joe and his people were plugged into this, and they just used it as an inspiration for-
IG: 11: 51
Did the windows on the world have brioche?
SW: 11: 54
I do not know [crosstalk] everything in its time. It had everything.
IG: 11: 58
I forget what it had. I-I was there a couple of times, but I-
SW: 12:02
Well, it was not just the fabulous, was not just the fabulous windows on the world, which was several restaurants, from the windows on the world to the Cellar in the Sky, which was the wine cellar restaurant. Then they had something called the Hors d'Oeuvreriewhich was just all hors-d'oeuvres, international hors-d'oeuvres. But on the lobby was, was just as interesting, on the on the main core concourse of the World Trade Center, they had something called the Big Kitchen. And the Big Kitchen was like the prototype for all of the for every, you know, casual fast-food concept that ever existed, but it was high scale. So, there was a bakery there, there was a there was a grill, there was a hamburger place. This one of the first places in America that ever had [crosstalk] and next to the Big Kitchen was a restaurant called the Market. And the Market was a, was a was in honor of all of the fresh food and produce in New York. So, every day, the chefs would go out and they would buy the best fish or meat or vegetables they could find. And all the menus were handwritten because it was that fresh. And that was that was that was ahead of time too.
IG: 13:03
That was ahead of its time. Was very ahead of its time. It is, it is extremely interesting. It is extremely interesting. Were there any was there any connection? Do you know that the site of the former world trade, World's Fair in Flushing Meadow Park also has kind of a similar setup to Windows on the World? I mean, it also has sort of, you know, but it is a much smaller scale. Was it by the same proprietary or you know-
SW: 13:36
Restaurant Associates was involved—It is funny you would mention that goes, I grew up in Queens on the 14th floor of an apartment building that looked over the World Fair site, the world that whole, you know, I used to watch the aggregated in the summer. We watched the shows and the fireworks. But the that-that World's Fair the first one, not the one in 1964 but the but the original. I want to, I want to put the date. It was the 1964 World's Fair, but that was the first time in the time in America that that there was a celebration of the International, the possibility of international food. That is such it was such a so I have written about it because it is such a seminal moment in culinary history that-that-that-that-that World's Fair, you know, was the first time there was like a giant concourse devoted to things, you know, you know, you know, Asian food, and even things like Belgian waffle was a big, was a big hit at that World's Fair, and they did not exist. The idea of cooking a fresh waffle and putting whip cream and strawberries on it.
IG: 14:35
I think, I think, I think that is absolutely right. It kind of introduced, you know, not only well through food, essentially through food, you know, I mean, we can, we can discuss. I have, actually, my daughter has a friend, Joe Torella, who was also a journalist at People Magazine. But, you know, he wrote a book about the (19)64, (19)6 5 World’s Fair. Have you heard it?
SW: 15:05
Yes, I am not, but I am going to look for it now, because it is dear to me.
IG: 15:12
Probably touches on what you, you bring up, because it is, it is sort of, you know, it is heavily researched. And-
SW: 15:20
Yeah-yeah, that was-
IG: 15:22
-what we can, we can, all right, so let us go back to Harpur. Let us go back to Binghamton. So, you arrived on campus. What, in (19)66?
SW: 15:33
(19)66, yes.
IG: 15:34
(19)66, a city kid, and you are coming into really the boondocks. What was it like then? What was the college describe it?
SW: 15:44
It was very small by today's standards. I think there were, there were either just south or just north of 2000 students there. And over the course of a year, you literally got to, if you did not know personally, everybody on campus, you recognized everyone on campus. It was that intimate. But, but the it, but-but the-the-the truth of it? Well, there is lots of truths to it. One is your, your only. I was only 17 years old when I started college, and it was the first, I mean, I travel some as a kid, but this was, you know, the first attachment from home. So, a lot of what goes on is just a, you know, once psycho psychology responding to the strangeness of being on your own, but it was also in the forest, as far as a New York City kid was concerned, and I was surrounded by a lot of kids like myself, really smart people who-who Harpur was a liberal, liberal place. I do not know what it is like today, but that was a very-very liberal campus and-and so it was, it was like, it was like, you took the compression of the city and young people and you it was a chance like-like the snakes coming out of the popcorn [laughter], the fake popcorn, we were springing all over the place, if the truth be told. On the other hand, I was very serious about academics. And I, you know, I gravitated, I liked, I liked going to college, I like, I like the education. And it was, it was a it was a mixture of social strangeness and a chance to-
IG: 17:13
How so? Social strangeness?
SW: 17:14
I just think the freedom that that is involved, they in the in the in the orientation week in the freshman year. One of the traditions that Harpur had, I do not know whether it exists, I hope not, but they had it called Patty's wake. And Patty's wake was a beer blast. And, you know, we were, I was not even old enough to drink beer, but so be it. You know, this should be my worst crime, but-but it was, it was it was it was so mind bending. Forget, forget the drugs and all the rest that came later was just mind bending to be served. You know, limitless amounts of beer in a space with music and hundreds of kids your age were just free for the first time. I do not know how to put a neat lasso around it-
IG: 18:03
Exactly, but it is [inaudible] you vivid-vivid picture and memory, you know. So, you know, there probably was a sense of being part of this community, and uh-
SW: 18:21
I think it is a very- I wrestle with that point a lot. [crosstalk] I wrestle with the community point a lot. Because as someone who eventually got into generational studies, that is what the consistent consumers. I do not know whether my generation was as collectivized as some of the other generations that I see. I think that the in primitive or the nature of the people that I went to Harpur with, everyone was in a play about themselves.
IG: 18: 52
That is a brilliant way of describing it is very individualistic, very but that is great.
SW: 18: 58
And so, our play is overlapped, but-but-but-but everyone was really existing in-in a script that was being written for them, personally. And so while it is fair to discuss the (19)60s in terms of anti-war culture or-or drug culture, or-or materialism is-is-is, you know, is laid upon the baby boomers, and that is and none of that is wrong, but-but-but I do not think it captures the essence of what every, every person who participated was going through, because there was a lot of ways to act out, whether you were in the theater department or whether you were an anti-war protester, or whether you were a musician, or whether you were a scholar, and people-people had a passion about what they were doing. And you know, sometimes that passion got a little too crazy, but, but I would describe my experience at Harpur in general as just being around a lot of passionate, crazy people. Pick crazy because the because I. Society teaches you to modulate a little. Yes, you get older, and these-these people are not entirely modulated.
IG: 20:06
So do you think that this is true of the youth culture, because a lot is said about the youth culture in the late (19)60s, and you know all of these rebellions going on in the United States, protests and-and in Europe. Do you think that everyone was, you know, feeling, I mean, you cannot speak for the whole world? But do you think that this was more true of Harpur College or youth culture in general, that everybody was in their own play?
SW: 20:38
I-I think that that the answer is yes to both, both the youth culture in general and Harpur, which gave people an opportunity because of the nature of the people who attended and the nature of the social structure of the school itself, allowed it to flourish. But-but as somebody who cares about this, because I have studied this and it is meaningful to me, I believe that every generation discovers its values in part as a break away from the preceding generations. In other words, that in order that-that the values of a generation are formulated in not necessarily in protest, but you need to create a unique identity that allows your generation to be a survival generation, there is got to be something that you are not just aping a previous generation, and what Tom Brokaw has described as the greatest generation, because they lived through a depression and because they fought a war. God bless them. Yes. However, I would tell you that one of the major, at least in my observation, one of the major qualities of that generation is well for one of a better term, excuse me, Tom Brokaw, fear and repression, because their survival depended on being brave, on enduring horrible, horrible things as a result. When they created us, my generation, when they created us, they wanted us to toe the line. They wanted us to behave because they felt that is the way you survived. You know that there was, there was there was an appreciation that you survived by following the laws of the tribe. Well, so turned out my generation was not having any of that, because we had to create our own values. So instead of, instead of cursing the darkness, we lit the candle and that. And so that is who we became. We became people who were, you know, we decided, rather than crawling back in the womb and being afraid that we would go out and party for a while. And I think that was true of my generation, and I think it was very true at Harpur, because Harpur was inclined to be liberal about those things.
IG: 22:36
But-but you also acted as a collective. I mean, it was, it was very individualistic, but was not there a sense of collective of, you know, going out and marching on Washington, and also the music of the (19)60s was very much about, um, you know-
SW: 22: 55
I think, I think that is eminently fair. And I think, I think when half a million people show up at Woodstock. You have a right to talk about collective but my experience and A, this may be just totally atypical to me or B, because I am a journalist by nature, and I was more of a watcher, you know, I was much more interested in observing than participating. But I just felt that even I acted a little bit in Binghamton too. I was a couple of plays, even though I was an English major and but the people in the theater department well, but you could say that they were collective. They were all doing plays together, but damn, they were a diverse group of people.
IG: 23:33
That is a very good analogy. And I think so highly of the theater department is still excellent today, still excellent.
SW: 23:41
Are you looking at Morris from Fiorello? That was my great moment.
IG: 23:48
Yeah, so that was a great experience for you, acting in theater. And-
SW: 23: 57
Yeah, those-
IG: 23: 58
That is a very participant. I mean, still you are, you are, yes, you are a star, and you are in your own head, but I mean the nature of acting is that you are, it is imitative and, but you are acting as a collective.
SW: 24:11
I-I was in a couple of demonstrations, and I was in a couple of-of plays, right? And, and had I been in the country at the time, I would have gone to Woodstock. I happened to be, I was, I was in the summer of my junior year, which was on Woodstock took place. I was at Oxford University on a summer program. I had applied to a summer program. So, I went to see the Rolling Stones in Hyde Park in London that summer, which was the same summer. So, I get, I get some credit, but I guess what I am trying to say is that, yeah, okay, I participated in communal actions, but it was it. I was experiencing it on such an individual level. Did I get the paper in on time? Was my girlfriend happy? Was and that was as real as being, you know, part of the crowd that was watching, you know. Mick Jagger come out of the helicopter.
IG: 25:01
I understand. I understand.
SW: 25:04
But I do not know how you write history if you do not see some collective, you know, strains. But it was also-
IG: 25:11
-a period of finding out about yourself.
SW: 25:13
Absolutely more than anything, more than anything.
IG: 25:18
So, you know how? Just tell me about you know what your when you were not studying, how did you spend your free time you acted?
SW: 25:28
Yeah, it was. We did not have fraternities. So, I doubt whether the school does. I do not know if it does, but we had social clubs. For some reason, they were lost in historical there were no fraternity houses, and there were no sorority houses, but we had social clubs. So, I was a member of a social club, and I played ball with-with, you know, with my, with my brothers, and we had parties, you know, we-we dated, and we had, we had, we had, you know, so there was, there was that kind of, what might be called traditional college life, of having a having, you know, you know, friends, you played ball with and govern. So that was part of my life. And then you just knew people from all sorts of people, had all sorts of interests at Harpur, you know, one of my good friends was, was, you know, running Students for a Democratic Society. And one was a soft, you know, what was an athlete, and one was a- in the theater.
IG: 26:19
Right-right.
SW: 26:22
I feel like I, you know, poured over like the vial of mercury, and all of the little, you know, droplets are running every which way, because-because it is hard for me to just put a, you know, just a neat bow around-around it.
IG: 26:35
It cannot be and but-but also it is, it is, it is you who are bringing, you know, it is easier to put a neat bow, I do not know. Or it is maybe a turn of mind-
SW: 26:46
Yes-
IG: 26:46
-that wants to put it.
SW: 26:47
-yes, that is-
IG: 26:48
-you do not, you do not. So, you know, how, how do you think people perceived you? How would you how would your classmates, for example, remember you?
SW: 27:03
That is a great question. That is such a hard question to ask too. I do not you know, I would be honest with you if I, if I, if I could tell you that, although I think it is, I think it is part of a journalist nature that you do not want to be the story. I mean, maybe things are changed today. So-so I think that that every time I was able to just sit in and not be the focus of attention, I was, I was at my best. So-so-so the answer your question is they would probably say who that would be. That would be a sign of success. I do not think I was a follower or a leader. I just, I was interested in the zoo. But again, you know, in all honesty, I was very concerned that my girlfriend was happy. I was very concerned that I was getting good grades. Just-just that Harpur at that time, was impossible to ignore. What was going on around there, which was which was wild. Here is what I mean by individual being an individual. I was in the first draft lottery during the Vietnam War, okay, and so I remember, I remember being in my, my dorm room at the time, you know, and they are reading off the numbers on the radio this. That is really how it happened. Now you find out what number you were, but you know your birthday, you know, April 7 is one, and, you know, and for every second is two. So, I had a number that was low, but not really low, you know, it was, it was one of the in other words, I think they went up. I think eventually they went through, like 120 numbers. Like 1/3 of the people were in the draft lottery, were contacted by their draft boards. And I was around 120 I, you know, I, I had a number that was low, but I did not know what to do. Do, you know, I mean, I mean, I knew I had to register for the draft, but the Vietnam war was not popular in Binghamton, you know, on campus, but I did not want to. I had no, I had no intent of going to Canada, you know, leaving the country. But these, that was, that was pretty, that was pretty intense in my life, you know, whatever the collective was doing, I had to make a decision about-about what to do, and I eventually decided to join the National Guard in Binghamton. So, I joined, I joined the National Guard in Binghamton. And on the night of my graduation weekend, there was a very, there was a very famous Grateful Dead concert that took place in Binghamton in 1970 in May and-and-and-and I had to leave on a plane the next morning to go to Fort Knox, Kentucky for my basic training. I was more, you know, I was more of a I was closer to being a hippie than being a straight let us put it that way. The whole school is down there in the gym at the Grateful Dead concert, and I am sitting in the student center by myself because I was too blue. This is what life was like, as opposed to the-the-the, you know, the abstract collective. I am sitting in the thinking, “Oh man, I am going to the army tomorrow, and as fate would have it, I so I fly to Fort Know Kentucky.” You get there, they shave your head, they-they give you a uniform, and it is pretty it is pretty abrupt change of lifestyle. And that night, that night was Kent State, and I had just joined the National Guard as a as a compromise solution to not wanting to go to Canada, to not wanting to dodge the draft, and that night, I got one of the biggest lessons of my life, which was, there are no compromises. Life will life will instruct you in spite of yourself. That is the way Harpur felt to me. It was profound. And the things that were most profound were things that that that being in Binghamton and being a Harpur opened up for me, but they were in part, because I was an anti-war activist or some other collective, you know, phenomenon, and I think that is what is true of most of the people I knew there.
IG: 30: 59
So let me understand you-you-you know, enlisted in National Guard in the hope of avoiding being sent to Vietnam.
SW: 31:09
Yes, absolutely.
IG: 31:10
Yeah, that, I mean, that is the way I read it.
SW: 31:12
Yes.
IG: 31:13
Why did you feel that the day that you know, the-the night before you would be sent to training, and you learned about Penn State? Why did you feel that that was a compromise?
SW: 31:30
Because I felt like I was taking a middle road, rather than making, you know, rather than-than going out one way or the other, saying, you know, I am for the war, and, you know, I am willing to-to, you know, endure the responsibility of patriotism and fighting for my country, or I am against the war. And I thought it was, you know, an evil, hostile thing. And so, I was uncertain. I was uncertain about his doing, not to mention the fear of, oh my gosh, I am going to put a gun in my hand tomorrow, and I want to learn how to, how to shoot and do those things, the irony, because everything is, you know, connected and strange. I went to the local National Guard army in Binghamton just out, just for the heck of it, you know, I when I went the first time, it was not necessarily to sign up for all I knew they did not have any places, because people were joining the reserves to get out of going to Vietnam. And I went to the National Guard Armory, and the warrant officer said, “Well, I have two openings here. I learned that that the unit in Binghamton is a heavy construction unit. They-they build, they build the permanent-permanent, you know, facilities for the army. And he says, so I got, I got, I got two jobs. This is one you could sign up and I could teach you how to break big rocks into little rocks. I will never forget that was one of the jobs. I could learn how to operate the machine that broke the big rocks and little rocks, interesting, but not necessarily my skill set. He says "The other thing is, I need a cook." And so that is how the world is funny. So, I went to the army and went to cook some Baker's school. That was my first formal training as a cook. So, everything was connected. And I went to, I went-
IG: 33:07
That is so interesting. So, you know, what was the training any-any- was there any resemblance to culinary school?
SW: 33:20
Not, but it was like this. It was being around the mass production of food. I always, I always make people laugh. And in culinary school you say, "Oh, I know how to make a pie." You get a number 10 can of filling. You get a pre made pie crust. You pour the filling into the pie crust. But then you, you did get the Army gave me the opportunity to be around the mass production of food. You know, you cook breakfast. You are cooking French toast for 200 people. It is an interesting experience. So, there were things you could.
IG: 33: 51
Of course, of course. So how long did you serve? How long uh-
SW: 33: 58
I served in the National Guard for three years, and usually it is six years that you have to serve. But I have a very sympathetic company commander and a very-very sympathetic company priest, Father bill. I want to get father Bill in this lifetime. I said, Look, guys. I said, “This is not me. Help me. Help me find a, you know, an honorable way out.” I said, “I do not want dishonorable discharge. I want honorable discharge, but there is got to be somebody, because you have observed me for three years. I played the game, but I got to get out of Binghamton. I did. I had to go and live my life.” And they were sympathetic and helped me get out. So, I served for three years.
IG: 34:36
And then you went back to New York.
SW: 34:38
I went to the Culinary Institute. Well, actually, no, but I got out. When I got out of the National Guard, I did the strangest thing, because this, this feels like I should send you a check for a therapy session, because I am reliving things and moments in my life that are that are profoundly, you know, changed, big change moments. But when I got out of the National Guard, I wanted to prove to myself that I did not. Leave the National Guard because I was some sort of physical coward, right. This was something like I was not getting out just to avoid so my-my father had a contact, and I joined the Merchant Marine. You know, the Merchant Marine is not a military branch, it is just the just and so I sailed for about a year on a steel hauling ship that went from Baltimore around Florida into the eastern ship channel. But-but, so what I, what I did after, what I after, what I did after, you know, leaving Binghamton and leaving, you know, leaving graduate school and leaving the National Guard, was I sailed for a year and while I was on the ship, this is much more than anyone needs to know. But I was in Houston. We had docked in Houston, and I had applied to the Culinary Institute of America. I decided that I was going to take my desire to write, and I was going to marry it to food, which I loved, and then I was going to go to the Culinary Institute of America. And that worked out for me. I worked out for me. I worked for the public relations department the entire time I was at the Culinary Institute. I wrote all their magazines, and it opened up a door to becoming a food editor at a national publication. But that night in Houston, in the ship channel, it was during the first Russian wheat deal. They were taking American tankers, oil tankers, cleaning them out, loading them with wheat and sending them to Russia and, and I will say this about the Merchant Marine, it is a weird life. But they paid. The pay was, this was astonishing. Great, great. It was great. And they offered me the opportunity to go on one of these ships to Russia. The idea was, we clean out the hole from the oil, and then we would go to go to Russia. And because of the nature of the of the deal, it would have been very, very profitable for young men. And that was, that was another moment like, huh, should I go to Russia, or should I go to the Culinary Institute of America? And I think I wanted to be a little saner at that moment, so I went to Chef's college instead of going to Russia.
IG: 37:00
That is so interesting. Do I know that that America was sending Russia-
SW: 37:10
Wheat.
IG: 37:10
-which used to be the bread basket of the world, the Ukraine.
SW: 37:14
Yes.
IG: 37:14
Ukraine was sending it.
SW: 37:16
They needed our wheat. I think it was 1973 or 74 it was one of those two years.
IG: 37:21
I vaguely remember something.
SW: 37:22
That was a big deal.
IG: 37:23
Yeah, so you went to the Culinary Institute. And, you know-
SW: 37:30
Yeah because-
IG: 37:31
-and how did your life, kind of, I mean, your personal life, for example, how was it shaping up? Did you have uh-
SW: 37:40
Yeah, I went to the Culinary Institute in America, and I was paying my own way, and I needed, I needed a job, and I got a job in Kingston, New York. I was the cook at a Salvation Army daycare center in Kingston, New York, so that so that so in the afternoon, before I went to class, class would run from about one to seven. So, in the afternoon, I would go and I would cook for the kids and-and one day, I was driving from Kingston to Hyde Park, where the culinary suit was, and it was in a snowstorm, and my car slid off the road, and I, and it was this big, you know, deal of getting pulled out of a ditch and the rest of it. And I got to school, and school had been closed. They had announced the closure of the school. So, they did not announce, in other words, they had closed the school, but they did not announce it in a way that I that was accessible. So, I got, finally got to the school. I was the maddest guy on the planet. You mean, you made me drive in a snowstorm, I get an accident. So, I walk into the I walk into the building, and there was nobody around, and I walked up to the second floor of this used to be a Jesuit seminary on the banks. I walked into the second floor and there was one guy there, and I said, and I was, I was, I was fuming. And I said, I do not know who you are, but and I told him my story, just like you are asking me now, because I mentioned who I was and what I was doing. He says, "Well-well, I am the Public Relations Director of the school, and I need a writer." So, I put myself through school for the next two years being a writer for the Culinary Institute of America and that and that sort of, you know, pointed me in the direction that I wanted to go. So, I spent a lot of time spending sending out, you know, letters and resumes to-to magazines and newspapers and magazine in Chicago said, Yeah, you know, you should come work for us.
IG: 39:36
It sounds very much that, you know, all of these very fateful encounters, you know, that led you to the career that you have now. But you know, it kind of presupposes a certain kind of openness to opportunity, because somebody else would not have taken the bait, right? It is, you know, a certain personality.
SW: 40:03
I did not, I did not read the-the questionnaire thoroughly, but I took a glance at it. The one question that that stood out there that made me laugh was, are you still friends with anybody from-from-from your, from your alumni. Now I am close to one-one fellow who I went to graduate school with at Harpur. I am still close with him. But as far as the undergraduate people, nope-nope, and the owner, and the reason, it was not that I did not love them, and I still do, and I would be joyful to encounter them. Yes, I think we all just-just shot off into, you know, you said you are being open, being open to, you know, possibilities. I read everyone there, that way, that there was no I read everyone there. I do not think I share you my story, but I do not think I am exceptional. I think if you sat down most of the people from my classroom, my-my-my circle of contacts and friends, they would all tell you a story like this. It is funny. I went to school with Tony Kornheiser. Is one of the better-known alumni. You know, he is on ESPN, and Tony was the sports writer for the back then the newspaper was not by dream. It was called the Colonial News, and Tony was the sports editor, and I was the movie critic for the Colonial News. And, and that is how life is funny here, Tony is a household name, and I had other things to do. I was not going to be a movie critic. Did other things.
IG: 41:28
I did not know that, but you were a movie critic. What you know, talk about this for a little while. So, what movies did you-
SW: 41:35
I remember reviewing, I remember reviewing Franco Zepparelli's Romeo and Juliet. And I remember writing a review. I wrote a review of Guess Who's Coming to Dinner with Sidney-Sidney Poitier, and and-and, as with every other school, there were super characters. Most of us were kind of characters, but there were some people, you know, in the student body who were, you know, brilliant but slightly unhinged. I remember one of them coming over after the Sidney Poitier review and-and-and he-he smiled at me, and, you know, clamped me on the shoulder and said, "Good job." I never, I think those were the only two words I said to that guy the entire time. But I was happy. You know, I got, I got an atta boy from, from one of the characters, David Hammer was the guy-
IG: 42:27
I think I interviewed him. I would not be surprised. He is a lawyer now, and his- he is a partner in his own-
SW: 42:36
Would not be surprised. He could have done anything you wanted
IG: 42:38
I interviewed. I interviewed him.
SW: 42:40
Glad to know that he is still-still there, because he was a brilliant guy. He could have done anything; he could have done anything he wanted to do.
IG: 42:42
That is so interesting. Well, it is not surprising that you know, you know some of the people that I have interviewed and, okay, so-so open, yeah, openness to the world, certainly, you know, is equality of the people that I interviewed. I think I think most, I think I think most, but of course, expressed in different ways anyway. So, you know, so what- this was a time of, you know, changing mores. Were you paying attention to, you know, civil rights movement, women's rights came later in the in the late (19)70s. Were you aware of inequality- did you care, did you take-
SW: 43:49
I would be misrepresenting myself to say that it was particularly political, so-so it is really not a, it is really not an area that I have a lot to contribute to.
IG: 44:00
Right, okay, all right.
SW: 44:03
I was in the National Guard. [laughs]
IG: 44:09
Okay, so do you think that this generation of young people has something to learn from your generation?
SW: 44:27
I think that is a very fair question. And I think that the only fair answer is maybe, but-but I but I think that first of all, the nature of consciousness prior to the electronic revolution is it is a different kind of consciousness. And I do not know whether it is a better consciousness or a lesser consciousness, but it is a different kind of consciousness. And I said this about the younger generation is I am very impressed by their versatility. The they can do 10 things at once, but they cannot do anything longer than five minutes. And that that is just on one level, that is just an old guy going, you know those kids today, but-but on another level, I think that concentration is-is a valuable commodity, and I think when what my son is a data analyst. So, this is particularly, he is a brilliant kid, and he is a great data analyst. But the notion is, there is always one more fact, there is always one more piece of data. There is always something you could add to-to alter the algorithm or the equation, and-and it is like, no, there are times when it is good to dig deep rather than to dig wide. So, I would like to think that that that, you know, there is still a place for-for concentration, which I do not see, and I see, I see everyone responding at the, you know, to the to the immediate impulse of the moment, you know. And I do not know, maybe I have just described that kind of character because I was when I was a young man. So, I-I the real way I want to answer that question, though, and this is something that I thought about, and is important to me, is that in ancient civilizations, because I like ancient civilizations, I like mythology. In ancient civilizations, if you live to a certain age, let us pick 60 at random. But if you, if you are at the age of 60, and you lived past that time, you became an elder of the tribe, that you were valuable to your civilization as an older person, because you had lived some life and you knew things, and it was the nature of lots of organized cultures that you would access the wisdom of the elders. You would talk to an elder, because the elder could stop you from making mistakes, or had some insights into-into culturally repetitive situations. In our culture these days, you get to a certain age and you are useless. In other words, we-we do not have, we do not honor the elders in our society because of what they know. You know, in other words, I am saying you do not honor the elders because that is the right thing to do, or that is, that is the kind thing to do, or the ethical thing to do. You honor the elders because they know something. And it is funny, because in the nature of the work that I do now, the counseling work that I do, I am forever telling people who are over the age of 60, this is the fight for the rest of your life. Otherwise, it is funny. I talk to people my generation, they all they still want to know, you know, who they are going to date. Will they fall in love? You know, what is the next. You know, you know, business empire to conquer. And I say, you know, get a grip, man, or get a grip, you know, Gal, it is, it is, it is it. Life is finite. There is nothing you can do about that. And I try to say life comes in thirds. You know, from like one to 30, you are young and you are, you know, you are allowed to have, you know, the karma of the situation is you are learning things. From 30 to 60, you are an adult, and you do adult things, and you have you have a family, and you get married, or you have a business or whatever. But after that, there is a decision to make, because time is getting short, and you are not as vital in the same way you were vital. So, what are you going to use these years for? And I just believe that afterwards you can be an elder of the tribe, but life makes it hard to be an elder of the tribe in our society, so you have to fight for that.
IG: 48:26
You have to find; you have to find a venue.
SW: 48:28
Exactly.
IG: 48:28
[inaudible] you can be older.
SW: 48:30
Exactly, right.
IG: 48:30
I absolutely agree. I-I that that is really very deep. You said you counsel.
SW: 48:40
Yes.
IG: 48:40
Is that, you know, who do you counsel?
SW: 48:44
Well, you know, here we get into the area where I have always been from the time. Okay, here is another strain of Harpur that is important. I got. I became interested in astrology partially because of my interest in mythology as a student. But partially because of a girl who was into astrology. And she was fairly, fairly adept. She was fairly well read in astrology. She was another undergraduate, like I was-
IG: 49:06
Linda Goodman Sun Signs.
SW: 49:07
The first what was one of the first three books that was handed to me. Jody handed me three books. She handed me Linda Goodman Sun Signs because I said it turned out we had our birthday was one day apart, and I wanted to, I thought this would be a good way to-to-to impress a lady. So, she gave me Linda Goodman Sun Signs. She gave me Astrology for Adults, by Joan Quigley. Now Astrology for Adults, the interesting thing about it is Joan Quigley, remember when, when-when it was turned out that Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan were deeply into astrology. It was on the cover of People magazine and Time Magazine. Well, Joan Quigley was their astrologer and [crosstalk] So Joan quickly was the Reagan's astrologer, and she had written a book called Astrology for Adults, which was a second level astrology book. And I, all I want to do is run around for people do not worry to worry about the President's into astrology. She was a really good astrologer, but the third book she gave me was a very, very esoteric study called An Astrological Triptych, by a famous astrologer by the name of Dane Rudhyar, who was a very-very eminent, thoughtful, brilliant, philosophical astrologer. And I read, I read the first two books, no problem. The third book, I did not know what the hell I was reading, and it became kind of a challenge to me, an intellectual challenge. I wanted to know enough astrology to understand what I was reading in this book. So, astrology became an interest, because I liked mythology. I loved Athena. She was my favorite Goddess, and I, you know, the relationship did not go anywhere, but the astrology got under my skin. So, for from the age of 18, I have been interested in astrology and-and I have taken classes, I have written for astrological journals, but all on the QT. I was, I was having a career, and this was, this was my avocation. This was not my vocation, but I was, I was a serious, I was a serious student of astrology without being an astrologer at the age of 60, you know, apropos of this, you know, being an elder, life circumstances changed for me in my business and in my personal life. And it was a gateway. It was clearly a gateway. And I could either try to recapture the stuff I had been doing for 30 years, or I could say, "Look, you know, do what you do, what your passion tells you to do, for the running time while you, while you are still capable." So-so I had, it is funny, because it is it Louis, Louis Patler who is a who is a co-writer, and a very well-known if you, if you, if you Google Louis, you would see what, what an influential business consultant he is in the world right now. His daughter knew that I was into astrology. She kept bugging and bugging me about doing a reading for because I do not do readings purely in this, because this turns me on. It is sort of like, like a person who has some ability to paint, but paints the pictures for himself. And she became so incessant, I finally said to him, "Look, I am going to do this for her." And she became she became client one. Well, I never advertised. This is about 12 years ago. I never but I never tried to build a practice. She told friends. Friends told friends. Word got out. I published some books, and I have about 200 clients now, and most of them are very accomplished, in fact. In fact, this morning, I did a consultation with a doctor in Canada. These are not people who are they are scientists. There is business leaders. They want to keep you know, sharing names is not the right idea, but when I say counsel, I am having the sort of conversation you and I are having today. These are the conversations I have with people because the universe has been kind and sending me people who have are really thoughtful, you know, are really worth talking to. I am not. For me, astrology is not, you know, you know, I lost my dog. Where is my doll? Do that kind of astrology. I try to talk about life of you. I try to do my wisdom, my wisdom years via the via this consulting. But I find that you know, that people come back over and over again and-and the names and the the-the-the accomplishments of the people that I get to consult with are impressive. Let us just leave it that way.
SW: 49:53
Again. They come to me because I am not trying to sell them that I am an Oracle. I mean, yes, there is synchronicity involved. Yes, I tell people things that. How did I know that the-the- it is funny, the doc, the Canadian doctor, a woman who is, I know, I know because I have read for her husband, too, has been married for 25 years? I could look at her chart, and I say, you know, I have to say this to you there, there is really a strong indication here of some sexual, you know, hanky panky attraction going on. And I was right. I was right on. I do not know how I know that, all right, that, you know, I do not know how I know that looking at a piece of paper, you know what I mean. And I am not, I am not going to, I would never advocate, oh, astrology is true. It is the word of you know, you know the universe. But sometimes it blows my mind. I do not think I would have stuck with it if it was not, if that did not occasionally happen.
IG: 49:53
Right. Well, I think we should near we should think of concluding this extremely [crosstalk]
SW: 49:53
This tape will be [crosstalk]
IG: 49: 53
How interesting. Well, they are interesting.
IG: 50:40
-your life and period. So, do you- what are some of the most important lessons that you have learned from your college years--life lessons?
SW: 54: 59
Yeah-yeah. I think that Harpur was instrumental. And this is this, is this, this is something that is important to me. I think Harpur opened me up to the possibility of dreaming of-of not feeling that reality was something that came with a set of instructions. I think that, I think that that the nature of what I studied and what I did and who I was doing it with, made me believe in the possibility that that you could always learn something, you could always be surprised. You could always you could always trip into something that was, you know, oh, I could have never anticipated that life was going to take me down this road or this was going to happen. And I think, I think leaving a, you know, leaving-leaving New York as a young, young guy, as a 17 year old guy, and even though I was, you know, a little free spirited, I was still looking to my family in a, you know, in a community of, you know, belief and practice and-and Harpur could have been a different kind of school where I simply, you know, went for an academic reputation, and I studied hard, and I and I, you know, figured out how to become something. But the things that were important about Harpur were the was the was the open endness of it all, the free-floating associations that seem to have so much meaning. And I honestly feel that basically, and again, this is just for me, that is that, that is what Harpur opened me up. It is sort of like a look like, you know, like, like a meditation or a spiritual journey. I only can characterize it that looking back at it, it opened me up. It opened me up to the possibilities of the universe. And that was life lesson number one, that and I realized that in order to write, you had to concentrate. [laughs]
IG: 56: 54
Well, that is that is absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for a really, very, you know, very substantive, unique interview, I think that we are going to conclude-
SW: 57:09
Okay.
IG: 57:10
-here and I thank you very much, Steve.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Steven M. Weiss
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Weiss, Steven M. ; Gashurov, Irene
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Steven Mark Weiss is the president of Straightforward Communications, a marketing and research consultancy in consumer demography and trends. His clients have included Hilton Hotels, Denny’s and the California Department of Agriculture. A magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University and of the Culinary Institute of America, Steve spent the early part of his career as the executive food & beverage editor of <em>Restaurants & Institutions</em> magazine. His work earned him a Jesse Neal award for editorial excellence from the American Business Media. For nearly a decade he was the regular columnist of <em>QSR Magazine</em>. He is also an award-winning journalist with 25 years’ experience as a marketing and management consultant to the food service industry. Steve resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, and serves as vice president of the Arizona Society of Astrologers. He has written books on astrology, including <em>Signs of Success</em>, which represents his lifetime avocational interest in astrology.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-03-01
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In Copyright
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eng
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Steven Weiss.mp3
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2019-03-01
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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57:14 Minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/caa543c05169d9bdab41084b0b5b7e6e.mp3
fe72dd8dd104914af745b8e6a8fb8a37
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-03-01
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Paula A. Baxter
Year of Graduation
1975
Biographical Text
Paula A. Baxter is a retired curator, librarian, educator, and independent professional writer specializing in art history and Native American jewelry. She served for 22 years as curator of the Art & Architecture Collection at the New York Public Library. She previously worked at the Museum of Modern Art library and several art colleges. Baxter earned her B.A. and M.A. in Art History from <span class="hover:entity-accent entity-underline inline cursor-pointer align-baseline"><span class="whitespace-normal">Binghamton University</span></span> and an M.S. in Library Service from <span class="hover:entity-accent entity-underline inline cursor-pointer align-baseline"><span class="whitespace-normal">Columbia University</span></span>. She is the author of several books on Native American jewelry, including <em data-start="577" data-end="618">Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry</em> (2000), and has published numerous articles on design history, art research, and collecting. Before relocating to Arizona in 2017, she also taught humanities as an adjunct professor at Berkeley College.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni in Art & Design.
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Paula A. Baxter
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 1 March 2019
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:00
Now we are live.
PB: 00:02
Okay. Hi, I am Paula Baxter. I graduated from Binghamton in 1975. I stayed on for two more years and got a master's in 1977. We are sitting in my backyard in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I am at this point, retired from the New York Public Library, but I am also a former adjunct professor and a professional writer, and I am working on the magnum opus of my career at this moment. I am the daughter of a man who took a long time to become a college professor. My dad was in World War Two. He was one of those 16-year-olds who lied about his age and went off, and he spent three years in the South Pacific. He came home, he went to NYU on the GI Bill, and he first worked as a liquor salesman, but he wanted to teach first in high school and then in college. This meant my childhood involved a lot of moving around, and we finally ended up by junior high school in Oneonta, New York, upstate, where he was a professor of Spanish at the college here at Oneonta State. He did not have his PhD; however, he had a master's from the University of New Mexico, where we lived for a couple of years in the early (19)60s. And he very slowly- he liked to joke that he was the world's longest running PhD candidate, but there were many more, and he went to Binghamton. And so, Binghamton was firmly lodged in my mind as a place to go. I did; however, I was the only child I did not like Oneonta to grow up in. I did not have a good time. There was illness in my family. Only child students were very cliquey and laughed at me now, but one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Binghamton was that none of my classmates in high school whatsoever planned to go to Binghamton. And when you ask these kids, “Why?” they said, too many drugs. So luckily for me, I ignored them and went to Binghamton and became a real person.
IG: 02:15
Okay, so that is wonderful, a wonderful introduction. We will explore how you became a real person in Binghamton. Okay, so what were some of your first impressions of the college, Harpur College, and when did you arrive there?
PB: 02:39
Yeah, I arrived in January of 1973. I had graduated a semester early from high school, and Binghamton had accepted me, but they had deferred me for a year, and this is very embarrassing, but I could not pass 11th-grade math. I blame this inability to do math entirely on the fact that I moved around a lot as a kid, and every time I arrived in a new school system, they were doing a different form of math. They were very sympathetic at Binghamton because my English, my language and my history grades were top of the line, high region scores also, but that poor old math problem dragged my GPA down, so they had me go to Oneonta State for a year, where I did very well and got my feet, let us say, and arrived at Binghamton in January, 1973 and my first impression walking through the Student Union and smelling the pot. [laughter]
IG: 03:41
That is a great that is a great sensory image. And so how did you respond to that? Did you-
PB: 03:50
Did not bother me in the slightest. I was assigned to it this time. It was a pretty new College in the Woods for my dorm residents, and the dorms were nice. They were new and fun, and I did not have the world's greatest roommates, but that all got sorted out initially, and I was overwhelmed. It was huge. And the first thing that came in very strongly to me is that I, for the first time in my life being a sheltered Wasp who received her letter from the DAR at age 18. I was a minority, because a large majority of the students there were from down state, New York or the Metro New York area, and they were Jewish, and so here I was a little Wasp girl in the middle of this large college he had a kosher kitchen in the student union, which I found rather amazing, and you kind of could not miss the ambient tea. But you know what? It turned out to be wonderful. And I credit Binghamton for teaching me how to enjoy and coexist and live with diversity. And there were plenty of other upstate students there; somehow, we all found each other. And what was a very fascinating thing is that we integrated well into our fellow students’ lifestyles. And many times, when we made buddies, a couple of us would be upstate non-Jews, and then we would have one or two Jews in our, in our little group.
IG: 05:20
So, but the diversity was largely upstate, downstate Jewish-
PB: 05:25
Right at this time, there was a very small black--I did know a few black students and very small Asian. I knew one, and ironically, that was not unlike Oneonta, where I went to high school with no black, or I went to high school with no ethnic students at all, and there were three Jewish families in town, so I had had a very sheltered existence in terms of the world at Oneonta get to Binghamton, and it is a whole other ball game.
IG: 05:57
So, how do you remember? What are your first impression of the campus physically? I mean, did you, I mean, you are from upstate New York, so-
PB: 06:09
It was much bigger than Oneonta. The architecture was very diverse, which I found interesting. At Binghamton, things were built at different times. As I said, I went into new dorms, but they had an older residential area called Dickerson, and there were lots of different campus buildings that were all architecturally different. It was a hodgepodge. There were nice outdoor sculptures, and there was a quad, and there was the library, which I gravitated to at once because I lived at my library in Oneonta, at the town library, which was a nice old library.
IG: 06:47
Can you describe the library for us in the early (19)70s? What was that like?
PB: 06:53
I am trying to remember. It was not as it is now. It was largely floor by floor on a lateral rectangular layout, but there were some underground areas that were reached by bridges, and the art library was down in an underground part of the library that had its own spaces, shared with the music division. And so architecturally was interesting, a little foreign. You have to remember, this is the pre-computer age. The only machinery we had there were microfilm machines and the early photocopiers, which always seemed to break down every five minutes.
IG: 07:34
But you had slides. I mean, we will talk [crosstalk] we will talk about that. And was the art museum-
PB: 07:44
That was active. It was over in the building. It was on the quad. I think I cannot remember what they called the building. There are things there I am stubbornly forgetting. But it had the large statue of Pegasus on it, which was a big joke about Pegasus. And we shared quarters. The art department was there. The first thing I have to tell you, however, is- I did not go right to the art department. I came in in (19)73 planning to be an archeologist. So, I was an anthropology major. And I really do not- they were in separate buildings, and I do not remember much about them, except for the physical Anthro lab.
IG: 08:21
What drew you to archeology?
PB: 08:24
Okay, this is an interesting story. It was Native American. I wanted to be at that time; Binghamton's degree was called the anthropology of the North American Indian. I wanted to be a field archaeologist. I did my field work in my first year at the end of my first year in Binghamton, and we discovered that I could not work in the field. I had a million allergies, and I was a bug magnet, and they would and we, there might be 25 of us on the dig, and none of them would get bit, and I would be bit to the point that I was bloody. The professors, the field supervisors, they told me, do not shower, do not use soap, do not use shampoo. I did all those things, and at the end of the term, they said to me, “You just cannot do field work.” And I felt like my heart was broken, but-but because they were intellectually astute at Binghamton and the professors in anthropology, not one of whom do I remember their names, by the way, but they were good. They recommended I look at the Art History program, and I did, and I was welcomed in. And the professors were top of the line. They were all refugees from the Ivy League, and many of them left after I finished my master's, to go back to the Ivy League, and that is what I did. I ended up taking an art history BA and MA.
IG: 09:52
And what drew you to Native American culture?
PB: 09:59
We had a Native American in our family that we did not know anything about.
IG: 10:04
A relative?
PB: 10:04
A relative, you have to remember this is from the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. You have to understand that my mom and dad's family grew up in upstate New York, rural, and they were prejudiced, like many people, and they attempted to hide the identity of this relative, and I became very intrigued by that. I found photos, and I found data, and I was only able to determine that he was a Seneca Indian whose family were wiped out by a typhoid-typhoid epidemic in the early 1900s, and he was adopted by a Baptist missionary family whose last name was Baxter. How interesting. And they hid his identity, so we had the- my mother had an interest in this, even though it was not her family, it was my father's. We had virtually no information about him. This is my problem here. [coughs] But anyway-
IG: 11:08
He has been a great-grand uncle?
PB: 11:12
Great-grandfather, as far as and the other thing, however, you need to understand, because I did try to look into it to see if there was a connection that I could prove historically. Because, if you may not know, in the United States, Indian tribes are regulated by the blood quantum level. They are the only ones that are of all minorities in the country. However, the Senecas are matrilineal, and this was a paternal relative, so I did not qualify. I am probably 1/64 Iroquois, Seneca, as they would say, how Dasani. I have no family-
IG: 11:36
Have you done a DNA test?
PB: 11:47
No, I did not. I did not do that. So that was I felt with that background, I was officially interested. My mother was interested. She kept some books on anthropology around the house. But I also was interested in classical Greek and Roman. And as a matter of fact, my MA thesis, now my BA thesis, was on Roman painting. So, you see, I sidelined the Native American interest in, and it became a dual interest with, first, initially classical Greece and Rome. And then I became my master's was expertise in English and American 19th-century decorative art, which led me ultimately to jewelry. And I had very good training for that.
IG: 12:42
Do you remember the professors you studied?
PB: 12:44
I remember every one of my professors, and-and then I want to mention one who was not one who was a professor, but not in art history, because I was mindful of your questions. My-my undergraduate advisor was Vincent Bruno, a very distinguished expert in underwater archeology, and he had written a book on the Parthenon. And I wrote my master's thesis. Sorry, I am sorry. BA thesis under him on Roman painting. But two of the professors were very good to me, and I did the dangerous thing. And when I stayed on for the MA, I switched over to-
IG: 13:22
Why do you say the dangerous thing?
PB: 13:23
Well, because you can alienate your professor. However, Bruno and I managed to stay friends, and I used to see him after college. I stayed in touch with these three professors I am mentioning now after college, who were delighted by the career turn I did, because they wanted me to stay on for a PhD, and I left them to go to Columbia University and get my MLS in art librarianship. But Kenneth Lindsay and Albert Boime were my MA advisors. Ken was very good to many students, mentored a lot of them. And Albert Boime is a brilliant 19th-century scholar, but lots of things, and he was a Marxist art historian at that time. Marxist art history is a little old-fashioned. You have to understand that I went to college so far back that a lot of the current methodologies did not develop. But Marxism is really social history, which is what I wanted, and that is the methodology I adopted.
IG: 14:19
It is, it is, it is a critical lens through which to see art.
PB: 14:25
How art is developed-
IG: 14:27
Is Terry Eagleton, one of the Marxists, I mean, he is a literary critic.
PB: 14:34
Was he at Binghamton at the time?
IG: 14:36
No, but he is a Marxist.
PB: 14:39
Yeah. Al was Albert was probably, I was that way too. Yeah-yeah. And he wrote unabashedly, Marx- Marxist theory. He is famous for a number of books. His most famous book is about the academy, the- in both England and France, the idea of the Parisian Academy in the 19th century. But he was very diverse. He wrote an article about the Pre-Raphaelites and had other interests as well.
IG: 15:08
Okay.
PB: 15:08
I was his grad assistant in, um [crosstalk]
IG: 15:12
How-how was your thinking personality shaping through all of these courses, and the attention that you were getting in class, and um-
PB: 15:24
I was growing, and I was developing as a person. I was very repressed in high school. I was repressed because of my family situation. I actually had almost no boyfriends. I did not fit into all the cliques in Oneonta and kind of went from one to one to one, which we turned out to be my personality. I am the kind of person that breaks through all the cliques and is a friend, and I and interestingly, my father was that way as a faculty member too. They could all be fighting with each other, but everybody liked my father, and he united them, etc. I could go from clique to clique in different groups, perhaps because I was a solitary girl child, but as an adult, critical thinking adult, Binghamton was excellent for me, and the library did play a role, because I had always been bookish. I always read a lot. I am a speed reader, by the way, which is something we found out in high school, [crosstalk], and it is just a natural speed reader who retains, and I still, I read a lot of books. Now I read, I read all kinds of fiction and genre and nonfiction. So, the library answered a lot of needs, but socially, I bloomed, and I developed. And probably the most critical thing of all, I should tell you, although we could save it for the end, is that I met the love of my life in Binghamton, although I was wise and kept him as a friend, and he was a friend, and we did not start dating and become a couple until I was in grad school. He graduated (19)76. And-
IG: 16:54
A Grad school in Binghamton?
PB: 16:56
No, he graduates undergraduate. He graduated in 1976 from Binghamton, English major with a Medieval Studies Certificate, and-
IG: 17:04
So, he probably knows Kenneth Lindsay.
PB: 17:07
Well, his professors were you will know him. I am blanking. If you gave me some names, I would know Charmack, Paul Charmack, Robin Oggins, and a few others whose names I have forgotten. He had a medieval certificate. He and I, next month, in February, in March, will be celebrating our 40th winning anniversary.
IG: 17:33
What is his name?
PB: 17:34
Barry Katzen.
IG: 17:37
Well, congratulations. [crosstalk]
PB: 17:39
There used to be a joke in my mother's time about how girls would go to college to get their Mrs. In the 70s, we totally spat upon that idea, and we are not into it. I naturally had to become a feminist at this time period, and that is partly why I kept my-my maiden name, but also because I had student loans due, and I just did not want to do the paperwork to change to a married name. But what was the point I was going to make? That it was a byproduct. He was a friend I made. And I also think that it was very good that we stayed friends for a couple of years before we became romantically involved. I think that is why our marriage is endured. We know a number of couples in Binghamton who married while in college, and every one of those couples is divorced now. So, we waited, and it was very good. Now, one thing I wanted to say, because you want to talk about life experiences, and I have to laugh, Barry and I took a course together, an English course under Alvin Voss, who we were very fond of in the English Department. And it was on Shakespeare. And I used to, I remember I was naughty. I used to slip notes to Barry sometimes during class, but to this day, he and I will quote lines from Shakespeare. Will have memories of a line like when I was at NYPL, and they were getting ready to have layoffs at the during the recession of 2008-9. I remembered a quote from As You Like It, when I was at home, I was in a better place, or when I began writing magazine articles, I would remember brevity is the soul of wit, and things of that nature. And I have to say to this day, Barry and I laughed, but we feel like that. The Shakespeare class gave us an unknown at the time, but a lasting connection. And of course, nowadays, well, Shakespeare can endure, and does endure, but it is funny and that we remember Voss and his lectures and his talks, whereas I have forgotten all my anthropology professors’ names, and not my art history, but a lot of other professors, and we both still remember that class.
IG: 17:41
Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you have such a clear memory of that class with Barry and-and sort of, you know, a foggy memory of the other classes?
PB: 18:27
I think Vos [Alvin Vos], who actually physically was kind of an unassuming, modest man, youngish at that time, spoke in a very, sometimes dreamy tone of voice, very meaningful. And he had us read, not always the obvious parts from Shakespeare, but when he did, he would actually allow us into that world. And I remember that one of them we read, and that is still my favorite. And then, as I began to understand that there were some possible Native American Connections in that, the tempest became my favorite play. And with the line, " Oh, Brave New World, this is the one where Miranda and prospect [crosstalk] exile, and it had to be his teaching, and it had to be our willingness to be receptive. And what is interesting is it was not a course that was really going to line up with what we did in our day-to-day lives, but it stayed with us. And I cannot explain it. I feel that there was an intellectual rigor about Binghamton's programs and all the courses that you took that was excellent, and my BA was hard-earned, particularly my senior year. I should say another thing too, Barry and I were on Pipe Dream. So, we were connected with some of the politics on campus. We knew people in the student government. Barry roomed with the President of the Student Council. And=
IG: 21:50
What was his name, the-
PB: 21:51
Bill Gordon. And so, we knew the student council. I do have to say, though, that compared to what was going on in the (19)60s, by (19)73, (19)74, (19)75 things were relatively calm, although there was one sit-in over tuition increases that everybody was involved with.
IG: 22:07
You were involved in the sit-in?
PB: 22:08
Well, I did not go right in, but Barry was, and we knew people that were doing the sit-in. We were on Pipe Dream. So, we sent our-
IG: 22:16
Student newspaper?
PB: 22:17
Yes, and I became Features Editor in (19)74 I should also say that is another connection. I was on the high school newspaper. I was in the Oneonta State newspaper. I guess I was thinking about journalism alongside or as a way of earning money, because anthropology and art history can be difficult to break into. And I got onto pipe dream. And Barry got onto pipe dream. He started out as a photographer for Pipe Dream, and eventually became managing editor. I was Features Editor there for the year of 1974, which is pretty cool. And I stepped out, though in (19)75 because I was a senior and my courses and my BA thesis were tough. I could not give the time and attention to Pipe Dream that I could previously. Barry became editor-in-chief of Pipe Dream in 1976.
IG: 23:10
What kind of features article were you running at the time? Do you remember?
PB: 23:14
I would report on concerts. I also had, I had writers under me. I would report on art exhibits, what was going on in the art museum, concerts, and even sometimes major concerts that came to Binghamton, to the arena, things like that. There would be people that would come to play. I remember that we had Harry Chapin, or maybe I am confusing that with Oneonta, but he would come by a few times, and other singer-songwriters and features, as I can remember, that really related to art, music, and cultural activities.
IG: 23:41
I see.
PB: 23:51
Plays.
IG: 23:57
Plays. Remember any titles that were-
PB: 23:59
No-no, I have to tell you, I really do not remember, and I think that it was because of the senior year. They were very demanding in the art history program, very demanding, which was good for me later in life. And then, of course, I went right into the MA, which was grueling back at that time; there was a thought that I could teach college without my PhD. That changed a lot by the end of the decade. So, they were very rigorous in preparing me to teach introductory art history, which meant I had to know every image in Janssen, and part of my exam-
IG: 24:25
Janssen being the textbook?
PB: 24:37
Being the history, the famous history of art had 3000 images in it, and part of my master's degree in order to qualify for it were two exams. One was a written thesis, which I did with Boime, and the other were my orals. And my oral exams is I would go into an into the classroom, and they would show 12 slides. With no identification. And I had to be able to identify them. And they could be from pre-history to now, and then talk about their context. And they would do sly and clever things. Renaissance closely mimicked Hellenistic Greek and Roman sculpture. You could get confused. They put something in. It was modeled on something at, and the cruelest thing they did, because I missed this one. If I missed more than two, I failed. So, I could not fail. The son of the guns, and I will say it to the day this day, put up the Bury Edmund's cross without the Christ on it. And I and several colleagues were taking our orals, missed that one. So, when I said it was rigorous, it was rigorous.
IG: 25:48
Was it ever it- was it ever constructed without the Christ on the cross? Or did they just take it off?
PB: 25:55
They take it off. I think it could be removed for cleaning. So, they had slides of it removed for cleaning and whatever. Yeah, they wanted us to be able to recognize that cross form and pin it to the time period because it was significant. The beauty for how it hand helped me in later life is to this day, if you show me a page full of various different images, I can identify right away differences and similarities and things of that nature. That is a rigorous visual training that does not happen today in current art historical training, and I do not think any students in the last 10, 20 years could handle that.
IG: 26:36
Why do you think that-that has changed?
PB: 26:38
Because I think the entire academic picture has changed within the (19)80s, (19)90s, 2000s with No Child Left Behind. The Switch to stem as you know, there has been a movement away from liberal arts training, and art history has also been a very, very rigorous, demanding field. Every one of my professors was male, and yet most students, not just the Binghamton but elsewhere Columbia elsewhere, are female. Men do get ahead. I noticed you had a question about did men do better. The few men that were interested in art history, I remember always kind of did better in terms of getting to speak more with a professor, or being called on first, or things like that. So yes, there was some mild sexism going on in there, but all of these men that I studied under undergrad and grad were themselves products of Ivy League training, and they all invariably went back to Ivy League. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I did not go on for a PhD is that I knew Al was going to jump to UCLA, a lot of them, except for Lindsay, who stayed and was faithful, all of them went to other places and-and Bruno came down to New York, so I was able to see him there, and he And I kept up a relationship, and it was tough, but it also induced the same academic-academic snobbery in me, snobbery in me, when I talking about the library at Binghamton, because I know this is important, I got a job right away working in the library. All the art librarians, from Betty Lincoln to Thomas Jacoby, were very nurturing, and I was very, very good working there. I mean, did not do anything super professional, and they encouraged me when I began to think, I am a girl from a family with no money, and they want me to stay on for a PhD, and then I am going to have to go on and move around the entire country, taking little jobs, just like my dad had to do to get to where he wanted to go, and make very little money and often be adjunct. And maybe I should do something practical. And they say I am good as a librarian. So, I went down and applied to Columbia. I was not going to go anywhere but the finest program in the country. This is what Binghamton had done to me. And I went down, and I interviewed with them, and I said, “I want you to know I want to come in. I only plan to be an art librarian. I am very ambitious. I want to run one of the best art libraries in the country.” And they like that because they were very arrogant, thought and knew they were the finest [crosstalk] I am blanking on the names, so forgive me, all of them, and it is just today right now, or it is an issue I have with my age, but I can remember them, and they were good. They were, they were kind of arrogant there, too. And by the way, this is a digression, that department was eliminated.
IG: 29:38
Oh, I know I went-
PB: 29:39
[crosstalk] and that had to do with real estate. They did not play their cards, right?
IG: 29:45
But it is also, it is also, I mean, this is another conversation, but it is also that they were in keeping up with all of the technological development,
PB: 29:52
Right. And they did not do a good job on that. The other thing they did not do is they did not forge ties with departments like communications, journalism, because something happened out in Florida with one of their major universities there, and they eliminated the library school, and all the faculty were able to go to other positions in the college. But at that time, Columbia was on the top, and they allowed me to construct a master's in library science there that was completely art-oriented. I even took government documents and did the art documents from the National Endowment of the Arts. And it was also a big in for getting jobs. Why I had to work all the time? I mean, I did not say this at the beginning, but there was no money in my family. I had taken out student loans, which I paid off, or things like that, but I got scholarships there at Columbia. My workplaces, I worked at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and then I worked at this is a stretch American Institute of Physics, in their photo archives, working, and they paid for my second year of library school.
IG: 30:59
How wonderful.
PB: 31:00
I did not stay with them. They did not mind. They paid obviously, this is a long time ago, and I got my MLS in 1979, so the Columbia connection, I would not have gone there. I would not have done as well as I did, if it had not been for the rigor of the background in both my undergraduate and then my first graduate training in Binghamton, and I did very well in library school there, and I got very great jobs, except the one thing is, I was offered a job at SUNY Purchase, straight out of library school, and Barry announced that he wanted to get out of New York. He was having existential angst, and he applied to grad school at UCLA and the University of Wisconsin, and we got married, and I went with him, so I deferred that job.
IG: 31:50
Where did you end up going?
PB: 31:51
I ended up not getting a good job. I ended up getting a parent. Oh, you guys love this. I ended up working in the agriculture college, in their library, in their land, tenure library in Madison-Madison, Wisconsin, because nobody I- okay, this is a good story.
IG: 32:10
Okay, tell us a good story.
PB: 32:11
It is a good story. And coming from Binghamton, you can see that I already have a little intellectual snobbery, well-earned and well-deserved. I applied for a job at the Madison County Technical College. So, I go in for the interview, and he looks at my resume, and he looks at my resume, and he said, “Columbia University. I do not know where that is or what that is.” He said, “I only hire University of Wisconsin graduates. Get out of my office.” There was a very strong- this was 1979, (19)80. There was a very strong anti- well, no, they had had a blow-up. They had had the ROTC building was blown up during the (19)60s, and they blamed outside agitators from New York. However, it did not take me very long to find out that the kid who blew up the ROTC building and killed a math professor was a local Madison boy. But I would be in the student I would be in the staff lounge, and just over here, well, you know him. He is a con artist. He is from New York, and I would get this. I had a great work study student who worked for me, and I am talking to her, and she was really bright. And I said, “Oh, you know, I would hire you or something like that right away, or, you know, or but I had trouble getting hired here.” And she said to me, I and she loved me, by the way. She said, “I would not hire you. You are not a UW grad.” I actually, I heard that the woman they hired instead of me at Purchase left after a year, and she was Dr. Stan. She taught at Columbia before it closed, and got a PhD from there. So, I wrote to them, and I said, “I lied.” I said, “Oh, I am coming back, and I will be living right in the area. Any chance that you would interview me for the job?” They hired me right back in, so I left my husband behind for a year in Madison. He finished his master's degree, and I came and lived by myself in White Plains, where I lived for 31 years and worked at SUNY Purchase. From SUNY Purchase, I was lured to the Museum of Modern Art, where I became head of reference.
IG: 34:30
Marvelous.
PB: 34:31
And it was quite an amazing job. I got to meet all kinds of wonderful people. I partied with Andy Warhol. I had-
IG: 34:40
Tell us about that.
PB: 34:41
Oh, well, that would be, that was a good joke I would tell my students about because we were both drunk at a, at a reception, and-
IG: 34:49
Where was the reception?
PB: 34:50
I was working at MOMA. MoMA was the child of the Rockefellers, who were the trustees, and they also, of course, Rockefeller Center. They had redone all of it. Restaurants. This is back in (19)84, I believe. And yeah, it is (19)84 or so, and they had redone all the restaurants around the skating rink in Manhattan. They had the statue and all that. So, they closed the area off, and they did a large reception. I saw Donald Trump there with his first wife, and all I could think of was- she has five inches of makeup on.
IG: 35:22
She has what?
PB: 35:23
Five inches of makeup on. But it was one of those looks (19)80s parties you hear about. And they had stations where you could go get your sirloin burger, your pate, this and that. They had open wine and liquor bars. So I was with all the librarians, you know, all the library people at MoMA. We were sitting together big table across from Keith Haring, who stuck his foot out and let me trip over it, and then laughed outrageously. That was Keith. And so, this is a really good story. This is the really and I think Binghamton was at the root of my being able to take all this very well. So, I- we drank liberally. I was a young woman at this time. I was really young. I was 24 when I got my second master's in Columbia. So, I had started college at age 16. So, I had, I did all my training together in this, you know, seven, eight-year period, and-and then had it. So, we all have been drinking very nicely, and my seatmates came back to me said, "Oh, Paula, there is a chocolate mousse station down there." And they describe where it is. "Oh," I said, three sheets to the wind, or whatever you call I want. I want chocolate mousse. So, I jumped up in the table, and I run over there, and I find out there is a big line, and at the end of the line, there is this very handsome man. Mind you, I am drunk, and he is wearing a gray bespoke suit, a beautiful lavender necktie. He has snow white hair, and it is tied back like a 19th-century man with a velvet ribbon in the back, and he smells of some fantastic cologne. So, I go running up to him, and I say, "Oh, I love chocolate mousse, do not you?" And he looks at me, and he sees me, and he smiles his beatific smile. And I said, “What a handsome guy, I am going to flirt with him.” And we start having this amazing, stupid, superficial conversation about chocolate mousse and chocolate mousses we have loved, and chocolate mousses we would like. And we had to wait about 10, 15 minutes on the line, or maybe, I know it was around 10 minutes, and then he was ahead of me in line, so they fixed his plate, but like a gentleman, he stayed with me, and then he helped advise me, because he had, like, white chocolate mousse, and this, I mean, this is the Lux 80s. You would never get that now. And-and help me fill my plate, and then, and I am chatting away at him, and he is chatting back at me, and then we get ready to part, and he is sitting in different areas, so we are standing and we are talking to each other like we are kind of like enamored of each other. And I said, “That was a wonderful talk we had. Thank you very much.” And he looks at me. He says, “I had a great time. Thank you.” So, he walks away. So here is the best part. Here are all my librarian friends. They are jumping up and down on their tables, on the chairs, because they are drunk too, screaming. They look just like the monkeys in 2001 with the monolith. "Paula. Paula. Paula. That was Andy Warhol." And I said, "That was Andy." And they said, "Yeah, what the hell were you doing with him?" It looked like he was going to pick you up and take you for a date. Well. I said, "Well, that would not be bloody likely, but I did not know it was him." And then I told the story to one of my students in college years later, and one of my little students said, she said, "You know what I think happened? He loved that you did not recognize him, and he probably did not get that-that much." And then I just talked to him like he was a human, like he was another guy, and I was flirting with him and everything. Later on, I had to teach Warhol in college, because I taught this creative mind course I read, and it turned out he had a famous quote, I am a very superficial person, and it was part of his whole, you know, rise on debt and all that. And I realized that that interlude, my 15 minutes of fame with him, or 10 or whatever, because he is the one that made that quote. You know, we probably were having a wonderful time. Because if I knew who he was, I would have changed my behavior immediately and been whatever. And he had the joy of a young woman who did not know he was gay and did not know he was who he was, and just a true human being having fun at a party. And I met some other great people, too. So, MoMA was wonderful, but I was very ambitious. An ancient Chinese curse, you sometimes will get what you want. So, I applied for the curatorship of the Art and Architecture Department at the New York Public Library. I did not do research, number one mistake, but I knew that that was one of the premier positions, and I was very ambitious, and I had competition that took six months to hire, and then I was hired, and I stayed there for 22 years. But it was a terrible place, a terrible, terrible workplace, terrible.
IG: 40:35
Why?
PB: 40:36
Because there was no appreciation of the employees and no trust, no appreciation. For example, I curated exhibitions, but I was not allowed to talk to the President of the, of NYPL. Did not want staff talking to trustees. I- my boss and I had to give a little show and tell to Oscar de la Renta, his wife, Annette, and Bill Blass. They love me. Bill Blass started up a friendship with me. He wanted to do stuff. I had to actually go to the director of the NYPL and tell him that Bill Blass was talking to me directly. And he put an end to that at once; it was terrible.
IG: 41:21
How terrible.
PB: 41:22
One time, if you know about development-
IG: 41:24
Who instituted those rules?
PB: 41:27
I do not know, but that was a culture, that was a culture. And I came in. At-
IG: 41:32
Do you think that-that has changed?
PB: 41:34
I think it has gotten worse.
IG: 41:36
You think that it is, but Tony Marks was president.
PB: 41:40
And at, yeah, he was at, oh, God, what is it? I have a friend of mine works, worked there for him.
IG: 41:47
But no longer.
PB: 41:48
Yeah, Amherst College. Was it Amherst, or was it the other one?
IG: 41:52
Who was the president at the time?
PB: 41:54
Well, I had several, actually, I do not even mean president, I mean director of the library. I see Bill Walker, and he was not a good person. Oh, I am seeing this librarianship, so, all right, I am getting a little too free here. All right, make sure you delete that and, you know, just leave it vague like that. It was not a good place to work. And one example of that is that they brought in new management around 2004, and the word got out, but then they took so long, because they were using lawyers, they were going to McKinsey Company had come and done a survey. They blamed upper management. They found out, right? Who was responsible? Well, you know, upper management is not going to take the fall. So, they decided that all the middle managers who were over 40 would be gotten rid of. And that was me, along with some brilliant people. I had just done an exhibition there. Oh, and they made a gag order. We were not allowed to talk for three years about being turned down. And one of their motives where we were in the New York State Pension, and the ones who had been there who were over 55 and were in tier one, they cost them a fortune. I was in tier four, though, and which was the least one. But they just came, and they just cleaned house. They tossed one of the beloved curators, who was considered to be the best map librarian in the country, out while she was still doing an exhibition. I had just done an exhibition that broke attendance records and had gotten raves in the New York Times, in the New Yorker magazine, and they decided-
IG: 43:37
These articles, do these articles mention you?
PB: 43:40
Yes. Oh, not always.
IG: 43:44
Not always.
PB: 43:44
The New York Times is funny about not necessarily mentioning curators and things like that. Although I did get mentioned in the early exhibitions, later on, I might have-
IG: 43:56
What was the name of the exhibition that you were-
PB: 43:59
I have the poster in the home. It is called Art Deco design, rhythm, and verve. That was the attendance-breaking one, but it did not matter, and I knew the collection. I had a master's. I had been there 22 years, and but they had brought in a manager, and he was actually a colleague, friend of mine, and they decided they would not have two non-union managers, so I was the one to go, and he had just come in a few years ago. Previously-
IG: 44:36
When did that happen?
PB: 44:37
2002 because I was going out for brain surgery. I had a brain tumor. I am a brain tumor survivor, and we did not know if I was going to make it, but that is not why they hired him. They did not even know all this was coming down until I let them know, and he came on board like the week before I went for my surgery.
IG: 44:58
Okay, so that-that is really a life-changing event,
PB: 45:02
Yes, and-
IG: 45:03
You survived.
PB: 45:04
Yeah.
IG: 45:05
How did that change your life?
PB: 45:06
Well, I began to see I began to again. Maybe we can even think my critical thinking skills were good from my early 20s on, I knew a lot of us stayed there. I was very highly paid. I was one of the highest-paid art librarians in the country, which is what I wanted. But that made me a target. I had a big target on my back. [crosstalk] Yes, they did not care. I mean, the people that they let go, they let go of the curator in the Slavic division, the curator-
IG: 45:38
I know, I know-
PB: 45:40
[crosstalk] They let John Lundquist. They let go of Alice Hudson, everybody who was over 40. And mind you, they were not necessarily as well-well-paid as me, because they have been there longer. I came in, and I had-
IG: 45:53
What was, what was their what was the premise? I mean, what was, what was their explanation for doing away? For example-
PB: 46:02
They were going; they wanted to integrate. It was going to be one library; they did away with the research libraries. They had started a remote storage facility at Princeton that they did in Tandem with Princeton and Columbia. Put your books into stories; you probably had a 60 percent chance of never seeing them again. It all went black. It went black.
IG: 46:31
It was such a-
PB: 46:32
And I had a gag, I had a gag order on me. For me, they had to be careful, because Alice, John, and Ed. They were, they were older than me, 10 years older than me. I was just in my mid 50s at that time. I came in as a tier four, the bottom tier, and they really did not have a reason. And if they had been asked, " Why did you take the one with all the experience and credentials over the one that is just come in as a library manager, they would not have a leg to stand on. So, this is what they did, which was illegal, but believe me, they had all their lawyers on it. They knew I would turn 55 in October 2009, so they kept me on for a year. They let me know in July, 2008 that I was out; my position was eliminated. That is how they got around it legally. My position as curator- they retired. Almost all, except for a couple of curator positions just eliminated them. That was a legal thing that they did to protect themselves, and with me, they came. They said, “This is totally illegal by New York State law.” Why am I doing this as a recording here? Well, I do not mind. I am past the date now. They told me, “Oh, Paula, you are going to be 55 next September.” Illegal-illegal-illegal. Why do not we have you retire then, and we will give you health benefits for life, for right up through Medicare, and even help you with which is what they did with retirees. But they did not have to give them to me, and they did not give them to a lot of other people who they laid off. They laid off 65 people at the time I was let go, and 64 of them were called into the auditorium and told you have 10 days to pack up and leave. I was the 65th, but they waited on me. The director had me in his office, and I came in, and I knew I am in trouble because the labor relations guy is there, and he said, coldly to me, I am the one that had done all these things. Got articles in the New York Times and that, as did all my colleagues. And he said, “Things are changing here at the New York Public Library; we no longer have any need of your experience or services.” And it was mean as could be. Now, there are ways to handle it. And this guy, who is now head of the National Archives, by the way, you know, was very mean to me. I guess he was told he had to be that way. I am sure he did not enjoy it, but he enjoyed his very lux salary as director. I think he was brought in. We all agree, he was brought in as a henchman, and there was a reward waiting for him down the line, which there was, and he, you know, there is so many ways to tell somebody they are not wanted anymore. He could have done it and still got rid of me and said, “You know, this is great, but we are changing to a more STEM version, and we are going to downplay our liberal arts.” He just basically made me feel like a creep. And then when I am like, really creep, and I am thinking, gee, maybe I have a lawsuit here, and they were terribly afraid of that, he said, “But you know what, we are going to keep you. You are still a year away from being 55. We are going to keep you for a year, and we are going to second you.” He did not use the second. I mean, using that term to the Education Department, where you will work till next year, and maybe you can stay on, and but at least when you get retired, you will be 55, and you will be in the state pension system, and you can get a pension. Well, first of all, illegally. That is illegal-illegal-illegal. You do not talk to an employee about their age. And yet, they did, I and they did it, you know, and I think that they were measuring lawsuit versus, you know, the carrot to get someone who had had a brain tumor and had to get checked every few years and take an MRI, and I also had both my knees replaced in 2006 and then had radiation because the tumor grew again. They knew I needed health benefits, so that was my bribery, and I went for it. And as soon as I was retired, nobody in the New York area would touch me because I was retired, so I am desperate, and so I decided to write books again, and I taught a little course back at Purchase and continuing ed and on the next to second, last second to last night of the course I was teaching, one of my students raised her hand, said, "My husband's a dean at Berkeley College. They are looking for someone to teach art history and critical thinking. Can I recommend you?” They hired me like a flash.
IG: 51:29
That is wonderful.
PB: 51:31
And I worked for them for nearly eight years. But Binghamton, I am in you know, I think Binghamton-Binghamton opened my eyes to the world, but also taught me what intellectual integrity was, and about hard work and about various things. I have another story for you, which will tell you about the upstate downstate. I worked various jobs, and the jobs I worked most often when I was an undergraduate because I had school, but I needed that money. I had no spending money. I worked as a night guard in the dorms because I was a night owl. But one summer when I was not taking many courses, they hired me in the cafeteria of the Student Union, and I like it was my second day there, and they said, “You know what, we are going to put you on the cash register?” Well, it turned out to be a call celeb, and all of Binghamton was talking about it, because they had never, ever put a student, an undergraduate student, on the cash register, because they figured, or, steal, and I was in nine days wonder, I think the radio station had a big thing about it, pipe dream had a little article about it. People would come up to me and say, they put you on the cash register. And I, yeah, but they-they knew they talked to me, and I talked upstate. They knew where I came from. They even knew part of my family through Cooperstown and stuff like that. And so, I always thought that that was a marvelous statement about Binghamton. And this is (19)74, (19)70 sometimes (19)74 or late (19)73, and this was the upstate-downstate divide, because all of us were firmly agreed, and they would not say anything in the cafeteria. But I knew it was true that because I was an upstate girl, they could trust me on the cash register.
IG: 53:29
That is a great story. We are running out of time.
PB: 53:34
I knew it.
IG: 53:34
And so, I usually conclude these interviews by asking, " What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? And you said, “Intellectual integrity and rigor.”
PB: 53:48
Being able to work hard. I was not able to write five books without being very disciplined. I had to make decisions like, I am not watching television, I am writing. I cannot write books if I watch television. And I think that some of the arrogance of my professors in that program, you know, that we are the best, and this and that rubbed off on me, because I wanted to go to the best college for librarianship when I decided to be a professional librarian, art librarian. And I also think that Binghamton took a sheltered little girl from a very white bread, you know, not diverse community, grew up that way, and exposed her to lots of different students, lots of different situations. Socially, I did well. Romance-wise, I went from being a little girl who did not go to the prom to, you know, popular, and I became a person. But all my critical thinking, because I was very informed when I came to Binghamton, developed there, and I had to learn to grow up fast. There were things that we do not need to talk about Binghamton, that you learn to grow up fast. Asked about, and you had to have faith in your faculty. And I certainly did. And I, you know, I did two master's degrees willy nilly, and got by them quite well, straight out of there. And to this day, because I still intellectually, you know, I was hurt by the NYPL experience deeply hurt, and probably will be, you know, Barry says, you know, remember, that is past old news and all that, but writing all those books and doing all that was my way, and I have a lot of published articles-
IG: 55:36
Books, please tell our audience are on-
PB: 55:39
Native American jewelry. I am an expert in that area, particularly Southwestern Navajo and Pueblo jewelry, because the Southwest is the marketplace for all Native American jewelry. Jewelers from South America, Central America, and Canada come to the southwest to sell their jewelry.
IG: 56:02
And just tell us how many books you have written and some of the titles. And-
PB: 56:07
The first book I wrote was a tribute to my library background. I wrote the Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry. It is the first and only such encyclopedia of its kind. NYPL keeps it in their main reading room still, which is a source of pride to me that I have a book in the main reading room at NYPL at 42nd Street. I then went on to write four more books. My magnum opus is a two-volume definitive 150 years of Navajo Pueblo jewelry design, 1870 to 2020. It is an expansion of my first full book, Southwestern Silver Jewelry. And I have is going to be combination reference book, picture book. It will be the resource in the field of jewelry, because and has often got short hand. You know, short treatment in academia and other areas, because it is decorative arts or whatever, and Native American art in general has not always had a literature that serves it well. A lot of people wrote were enthusiasts or collectors, and not necessarily academics. So, I am able to write in an academic but accessible, shall we say, accessible, scholarly man- manner, thanks to my education and my training as a professional.
IG: 57:33
Thank you so much. It has been a delightful interview, an extremely interesting life story.
PB: 57:41
I think Barry would be angry that I talked about the NYPL. But since this is a library and it is a center, and you know, they did us wrong, I do not mind being on record with this; they cannot do anything to me. The statute
of limitations is long over, and you know, if you are going to be a librarian, you need to be alert. I saw many red flags in my time there. And, yeah, this is not being required.
IG: 58:10
All right. Thank you very, very much.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Paula A. Baxter
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Baxter, Paula A. ; Gashurov, Irene
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eng
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Paula Baxter.mp3
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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58:14 minutes
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-02-28
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Harold Magalnick
Year of Graduation
1967
Biographical Text
Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona, for more than 30 years. Dr. Magalnick and his wife continue to live in Phoenix, Arizona.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medicine; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni who are pediatricians; Harpur College-Alumni who served in the U.S. Navy; Harpur College – Alumni in community service
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Harold Magalnick
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 28 February 2019
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
HM: 00:00
So, my name is Harold Magalnick, M, A, G, A, L, N, I, C, K, and I graduated from State University of New York Binghamton in 1967, and we are currently in Phoenix, Arizona, where I am a pediatrician. So that, once I graduated from Binghamton, I went to the State University of New York downstate for medical school. So, I was there for four years, from 1967 until 1971. I then went to do a pediatric residency at the University of Maryland from 1971 until 1975, then I did a year of psychiatry residency from 1975 to 1976, then I went into the Navy for two years. I was one of the last of the draft of doctors from 1976 to 1978, and then I have been in this practice since 1978.
IG: 01:10
May I borrow your pen? Thank you so much. So let us start at the beginning, and maybe you could tell us where you grew up, you know, and what kind of upbringing you have.
HM: 01:33
So, I grew up in the Bronx, New York. I am one of three boys. I have a twin brother, and I have an older brother who is four years older than my twin brother and I. My father was a pharmacist in our area where we grew up. My mother worked in the store, and my older brother is a pharmacist. My twin brother- when we went to Harpur, it was a trimester, so that my twin brother could not get into the November semester. So, he actually started in July, where I started in November, so that he then went to summer schools and graduated from Binghamton the year before I graduated. So, he graduated-graduated 1966, where I graduated in 1967; he went to dental school, when I went to medical school.
IG: 02:31
And what did you see? You started in (19)63 or (19)64?
HM: 02:35
I started in (19)63.
IG: 02:40
So, what was, oh, so was education, higher education encouraged in your family?
HM: 02:48
My father was the first one. My father is one of six. He has three sisters. He had three sisters and two brothers, and he is the only one of the six that graduated college. So that I do not think it was ever an issue, we would not go I was I graduated second in a class of 1000 from high school.
IG: 03:12
Wow. And what high school did you go to?
HM: 03:14
Christopher Columbus High School in the Bronx, and had a full ride at CCNY [The City College of New York] in their honors program, but I did want to stay in city, so my parents said that you can go to Binghamton only because I had an uncle and an aunt who lived in Oneonta, not too far away, and they felt it was okay as long as there was family close by. So, my parents allowed my twin brother and I to go outside of New York City, and then I was a- had a Regents scholarship so that my tuition was mostly paid for. So, my parents just paid for room and board. And it was an interesting experience. I mean, I had the same roommate for four years.
IG: 04:03
Really?
HM: 04:03
So, we met each other on the first day, and then he went to medical school in Buffalo. When I went to medical school downstate.
IG: 04:10
Was he from New York City or from-
HM: 04:12
He was from Queens?
IG: 04:13
What is his name, by the- for the record?
HM: 04:19
Oh, Jay Harolds, H, A, R, O, L, D, S, and he is now a radiologist. He was living in Oklahoma City, but I think he is actually now practicing outside of Oklahoma, but his family still lives in Oklahoma.
IG: 04:35
Is your brother in Phoenix?
HM: 04:37
No, he is a- well, he is now retired. A lot of us from my career are retired. So, he is retired. He lives in Boston. He was practicing in Boston.
IG: 04:51
So let us jump to Harpur College and your first impressions of the campus. I mean, you are a big city boy, and you come to the country.
HM: 05:03
It was very cold because it started in November, and I remember the dormitories Harpur was going through an expansion mode during the four years that I was there. So, there was constant construction. And it was, um, a very difficult school; three-quarters of the entering class were either valedictorian and salutatorian of the graduating classes. So, you had this brain trust, so that it was a lot of very bright kids.
IG: 05:35
But you were number two in your high school of 1000.
HM: 05:38
Correct, so that I was perfectly capable of being part of the brain trust, but still, it was a lot of competition. So, when you had 1000 students at my high school, the number that were truly competitive for me was not that great. But at Binghamton-
IG: 05:53
It was all very competitive.
HM: 05:55
All very competitive, especially in the sciences, and some of the teachers were also very competitive, so that-
IG: 06:02
With the students?
HM: 06:03
Yes, so that they made decisions on whether they felt that they wanted you to go to medical school or not go to medical school. There was a lot, especially in organic chemistry and those higher-level sciences, they made decisions.
IG: 06:17
I never heard that. This is, this is really interesting. It is an interesting observation.
HM: 06:22
Well, we had an organic chemistry teacher who would write with both hands, and then when three-quarters of the class got D's and F's the first semester, and nobody, I mean, these are bright kids.
IG: 06:34
Yeah.
HM: 06:35
He decided that for the second semester, those kids who survived the first semester, that he would do tutorials. So, we would throw you in front of the entire section, hammer you with questions in front of the entire section, and if you did not know that, if you did not know the answers, he would kind of berate you.
IG: 06:51
That is very old school.
HM: 06:52
Very old school.
IG: 06:53
Was he from?
IG: 06:55
Who knows? Who knows? You do not know if he was an immigrant from-
HM: 07:00
Oh, no-no Norcross [Bruce Norcross], and he was, he was not an immigrant from anywhere. He was very smart, but he was very full of himself. And maybe he was a frustrated doctor.
IG: 07:11
Maybe.
HM: 07:12
So that maybe that was the issue. But it was. It was definitely an issue. My true brother was so worried about taking organic because it was one of my only Cs in college. My first semester, I got a B the second semester. But C the first semester, he took it at Ford, and we got two A's over the summer so that he was-
IG: 07:31
He would not have [crosstalk] required. So, you had a requirement. Obviously, you wanted to go into the sciences. You- did you have medicine-
HM: 07:41
I knew I wanted to be a pediatrician; I was 10.
IG: 07:44
You always knew that. How come?
HM: 07:46
I just knew I wanted to work with children, so that I was going to be a pediatrician, and my parents did not want me to be a pediatrician. They wanted me to be a dentist because they felt my father being a pharmacist. Felt that pediatricians and physicians do not spend enough time with their families, so that they want to be a dentist. I said, “No, I do not want to be a dentist.”
IG: 08:07
Why? How did you decide? Did you have a role model?
HM: 08:11
No, I went to a family doctor.
IG: 08:12
And did you like this family doctor?
HM: 08:15
No.
IG: 08:15
No. It is interesting. It is interesting when-when children make these decisions, and they just stay with them. Yeah, uh-
HM: 08:24
It was never an issue that I was not going to go to medical school.
IG: 08:27
In your mind?
HM: 08:28
Yes, in my mind.
IG: 08:30
You never, but do you mind if we close the door? Because, okay, so you were on the, you know, medical track, on the science track at Harpur, but I understand that there were also humanities requirements that you had.
HM: 08:39
Oh, yeah, I was actually, I was a literature minor. I loved reading.
IG: 08:56
You loved reading. So, what did you think of your profs and the courses that you were taking?
HM: 09:03
You know, all of those were kind of fluff fun for the science majors.
IG: 09:06
Oh, really?
HM: 09:07
The problems at Binghamton is that everything was four credits
IG: 09:10
Yeah.
HM: 09:10
So that my sociology 101, was the same four credits as my organic chemistry class, which included tutorials and lab the same four credits. So, therefore, there was really no equality across the board. The science majors were really pooped upon because we had so much more work. My wife was a German literature major. There were three people in her German artist section, so that she knew everybody, and there was a very close department.
IG: 09:44
Right.
HM: 09:44
It was not that way in science.
IG: 09:46
Did she go into the sciences, ultimately, your wife?
HM: 09:49
She graduated, and then made the decision, she wanted to marry me, and we got married a year later. No, probably six months after she graduated, and she went into computer programming, which was just another language to put me through medical school.
IG: 10:10
That is an interesting way of looking at it.
HM: 10:12
And then she- we had our first child the end of my internship year, and she- we decided we did not want anyone else bringing up our children, so she did not work outside the home until our youngest was in kindergarten, and now she owns a medical billing firm with my daughter, who has her German mind, and she has a degree in applied mathematics and her MBA, and they own a medical building firm.
IG: 10:36
How interesting. How interesting. Well, I have sort of, you know, scoped out the professional lives of your family members. So, you know, let us return to earlier, formative experience-
HM: 10:44
And my brother also married his girlfriend from Binghamton.
IG: 10:59
Oh, really?
HM: 10:59
Yeah, so that my sister-in-law went to Binghamton, my wife and I went to Binghamton. My twin brother went to Binghamton.
IG: 11:06
So, how did you have time if you studied so hard? How did you have time to socialize and meet your wife?
HM: 11:11
She- we started dating in April of my senior year.
IG: 11:16
I see.
HM: 11:16
April of her junior year.
IG: 11:18
I see.
HM: 11:18
And then we got engaged in November of my first year of medical school, and it was her senior year.
IG: 11:29
I see. So-so, you probably had, you know, kind of, you know, the academics eased up by that time.
HM: 11:39
No.
IG: 11:40
No, all right. Well, you know, let us, let us backtrack and let us talk about, you know, courses that really made an impact on you, humanities, sciences, I mean, a positive, you know, you spoke about this-
IG: 11:58
Organic chemistry.
IG: 12:01
-tyrannical teacher. What other? What other, you know, positive or negative? What other?
HM: 12:06
There are some lovely teachers, yeah, so that are my microbiology teacher was just and actually she was an MD, and she came back and was teaching micro, and she was marvelous. And I remember some of my English Lit teachers who were just marvelous, and my poli sci-
IG: 12:29
How were they marvelous? What-what-what world do they open for you?
HM: 12:33
I think the issue to allow the ability to discuss in a collegial way where you feel that your viewpoint is-is as treasured as anyone else's viewpoint was an important issue for Binghamton, so that it was a group of very bright kids, so allow them to fly and allow them to do what they need to do. So, the atmosphere in those days was more small-town, so that everybody got to know everybody else. But with the trimester where you are pushed into four months, it was a little bit more concentrated, and I think that is what made it harder, because you did not have just two months off.
IG: 13:18
Right.
HM: 13:19
You had four months off. But during the four to eight months you were in school, those were concentrated periods of time together, all the work done in a shorter period of time.
IG: 13:30
I see.
HM: 13:31
So that it was just a little bit more concentrated. They then got rid of the trimester, so that-that was only there during the time we were there.
IG: 13:42
So how did the trimester go? Just explain to us, how did it work? So, you had-
HM: 13:46
My twin brother started in July.
IG: 13:48
Yeah.
HM: 13:49
So that his master started in July, ended in November.
IG: 13:52
Right. And then?
HM: 13:52
Then there was one that went for four months, from November, November, December, January, February.
IG: 13:57
I see, I see.
HM: 13:58
And then there was another one that went from March, April, May, and June.
IG: 14:02
Okay.
HM: 14:03
So that you could graduate, if you went to all the master's.
IG: 14:06
Right.
HM: 14:06
You could graduate-
IG: 14:07
In three years.
HM: 14:08
-two and two-thirds years.
IG: 14:09
Oh, wow.
HM: 14:09
And that was an issue the state wanted to look at getting right people through right. Most people did not do two and two-thirds years, but my friend brother graduated a year before I did.
IG: 14:22
So, you know, could you talk about some of the- I am going to [inaudible]. So, could you talk about some of the specific courses that made an impression on you, and the way maybe that they opened your understanding of a discipline or a different way of looking at the world, at life. Do you have any memories about that?
HM: 14:56
I think that some of the science classes, even the bio the beginning botany class, I think, going out into the woods around Binghamton, because especially in the spring, we would do a lot of our labs outside, and you would go through the area of the river and pick up different plants and look at them. And I thought that was neat to do so that the instructors and the professors were really involved in getting us out into our environment, see what was around that whole Southern Tier where Binghamton is, was fun. So, I loved the issues of us getting out and doing those things. I remember, I do not remember, I think it was just a biology class where we had to do respiratory quotients. And they brought in a vat of cockroaches, so that we had this huge vat of cockroaches, and we all had to go into this vat, take out a cockroach, and put it into a-a test tube, and then test the respiratory quotient of a cockroach. And nobody wanted to go in and put their hands in the cockroach. And then one-one of the girls in the class that she did not really care, so for the entire class, she was putting cockroaches in everybody's test tube. But then one person, the cockroach, got out and threw up, threw their hands up in the air, and they all the whole class ran around trying to pick up this cockroach. Then the professor says, "Let us not use cockroaches. Let us use green peas." And that was much easier to do the green peas, but it was just fun.
IG: 16:51
Yeah.
HM: 16:52
It was just fun. And it was just neat. The interaction that occurred between the professors and the students.
IG: 16:58
And the students. How large were the classes?
HM: 17:02
A lot of them were in the sciences. A lot of them were lectures, so that when you went down to your smaller labs, those were smaller, and they could be 20 to 30. But in the large lecture halls, there were probably 200.
IG: 17:16
Were the labs conducted by a graduate assistant or by the professor?
HM: 17:19
Both.
IG: 17:20
Yeah, both.
HM: 17:23
There was no graduate school when we first started. Binghamton got much bigger.
IG: 17:28
That is right.
HM: 17:29
Harpur got much bigger as time went on. So, they started with graduate programs, but there was not many graduate students when we first started.
IG: 17:37
Thanks. Thanks for reminding me. I think I knew that. What was residential life like? Describe your campus. By the way, did you interact with students from upstate New York? And-
HM: 17:54
No.
IG: 17:55
You did not? It was all-
HM: 17:56
I mean, did I interact with students? Oh, students [crosstalk]
IG: 17:58
From-from [crosstalk]
HM: 17:59
Yeah-yeah, we interact with everyone.
IG: 18:01
With everyone, with every-
HM: 18:02
There was a marked difference between downstate and upstate, so that there was also a marked difference between those who were Jewish and those who were not Jewish, so that there was a lot of differences that existed in Binghamton at the time. There was, and it was the beginning of the radical movement. So, there was a lot of political things going on in Binghamton at the time, because the whole Vietnam War was becoming a major issue.
IG: 18:33
Right.
HM: 18:34
So that there were lots of things that were going on that was producing a lot of turmoil on campus.
IG: 18:40
So, were you involved in any of it?
HM: 18:42
No.
IG: 18:43
No, but you watched.
HM: 18:45
Oh yes, you had to watch.
IG: 18:45
You had to watch it.
HM: 18:47
You are involved with it, but-
IG: 18:48
Could you, could you describe it? I know that there were sit-ins.
HM: 18:52
Oh yeah, it was kind of fun. And you heard all this stuff, and there were a certain group of people that were really involved with that more, much more, when you looked at the sciences, we had too much work, so that we did not have the time. But the kids that were in poli sci and sociology, they had plenty of time.
IG: 19:09
They had plenty of time.
HM: 19:10
So that they could do all of this stuff, and they grew their hair, and they had the free love. And the people in the sciences, we did not have time for them.
IG: 19:19
Did you sympathize with them? What did you think of them?
HM: 19:25
I, you know, it is hard for me now to truly know what I felt at the time, because too much water has gone under the bridge.
IG: 19:35
Yeah.
HM: 19:35
So that I think my political views have kind of evolved over a period of time, and since I was not radicalized as a student.
IG: 19:43
Right.
HM: 19:43
I do not think that I truly remember. I do not know. I think that I- there were certain points of view that I thought were appropriate for women's rights. It is minorities and the treatment of minorities, the whole issue of war, these were things that were becoming big during the (19)60s.
IG: 20:10
Even-even (19)63 and (19)64 there were-
HM: 20:13
The beginnings of those issues.
IG: 20:15
-beginnings of those issues, but they were probably-
HM: 20:17
When I remember when Kennedy was assessed.
IG: 20:19
Yes-yes.
HM: 20:20
So that-that was a major issue on the loss of innocence that occurred with the assassination of a president. So that, and I remember the day that, and I was a freshman, I think it was he must have died in (19)63.
IG: 20:35
Kennedy?
HM: 20:36
Yeah.
IG: 20:36
November (19)63.
HM: 20:39
Yeah. And I remember that was November, and we started in November, so that I had just started at Harpur, and I remember going down in the TV was down in the-
IG: 20:51
The Student Union?
HM: 20:53
No, it was that the student union was on the other side of campus, so that each dormitory had a little rec room with a TV in it, so that we would go down to the rec room. Because to get to the student unit, you had to go over the bridge that linked they went over the little highway, and it was always icy, and it was November, and it was icy, and it was horrible outside, so that you stayed at this at your own dormitory, and I remember going there and seeing everybody around the TV as the whole issue with Kennedy's assassination was unfolding. So, it was a major issue at Binghamton.
IG: 21:37
It was a major issue at Binghamton. And I mean, did that make you feel alarmed when you saw the assassination? You said, loss of innocence, you put it very well. How did that impact you? Or did it-
HM: 21:54
Well, I think that the issue of the vulnerability that you are and- at any time, at any place, became much more obvious. I think that as a teenager, we look at ourselves as invincible. And now you say, no-no, you are always vulnerable.
IG: 22:08
Even-even from that one assassination, you felt that somehow you were more vulnerable as a result. That is interesting. What I know that you were immersed in your studies. But what were some of the discussions, political discussions in the air at that time? What were people? What were people talking about that they thought was unjust or they favored, or, you know, what kind of things?
HM: 22:38
Well, I think the big issue was the draft.
IG: 22:40
Yes.
HM: 22:41
So, the draft was a big issue, and how one gets deferred, and what are the things to get deferred? And if you do not get deferred, what do you do?
IG: 22:49
Right.
HM: 22:49
And who is going to leave the country, and who is not going to leave the country. So those were major issues that kids nowadays do not deal with.
IG: 22:57
Right.
HM: 22:58
That was a major defining issue of even what you were going to do in your career, what gets you deferred, and what does not get you deferred. So, what your draft number was and where you are in the draft [crosstalk] was a major issue.
IG: 23:18
What were some of the ways that I know that staying in school, and you know, going on for your graduate-
HM: 23:24
Medical school.
IG: 23:25
-education, medical school, was one sure way of avoiding the draft.
HM: 23:31
Correct.
IG: 23:31
But what were some other, you know, strategies-
HM: 23:36
You know, I do not remember [crosstalk], and that is the only one that I knew obviously, if you had an infirmity that was going to keep you out of the-
IG: 23:42
Right-right.
HM: 23:43
-to play on the issue of your infirmity.
IG: 23:46
Right.
HM: 23:48
There was a lot of yeah debate going back and forth.
IG: 23:51
What do you think that there was that created an air of an anxiety among your friends?
HM: 23:57
Yeah. Because if you got kicked out of school, you went directly to the draft board. So that the issue, and here you are in a very hard school.
IG: 24:06
Right.
HM: 24:06
And you know what percentage you are going to go on to go to medical school? When you have a lot of bright kids, are you going to get everybody into medical school? Probably not. So that the issue is that it produced more of the issue of the anxiety. So, you know, I think the issue of dating, and I think the whole issue of being away from home and being in a more diverse environment. And I had two brothers; I did not have any sisters. How one develops one whole issue about one's sexuality was a major player at Binghamton, too.
IG: 24:47
Yeah.
HM: 24:48
So, there are the people that were much freer and the people that were not very free at all, and how one dealt with-
IG: 24:56
How did you look upon that? Were you? You know, you mentioned free love, and you know, the kind of radical student, you know, radical-minded students. And how did you, you know? How did that influence you? How did you regard that?
HM: 25:12
I regarded that as interesting-
IG: 25:14
As interesting.
HM: 25:15
-but it was not-
IG: 25:16
It was not.
HM: 25:17
-for me.
IG: 25:17
Yeah, okay.
HM: 25:19
So that I was interested in getting my studies done.
IG: 25:24
Yeah-yeah.
HM: 25:25
So that and my roommate was very similar to me.
IG: 25:27
Right.
HM: 25:28
So, the two of us were very, very similar.
IG: 25:30
Right.
HM: 25:31
But, you know, they did not have any fraternities in Binghamton when we were there. They only had social clubs.
IG: 25:37
Right.
HM: 25:38
So that we decided a group of us got together to make our own social club.
IG: 25:43
What was the social club?
HM: 25:45
It was called, I will think of it in a second. STO, some Greek letters, sigma, something [crosstalk], so but it was STO, and we just got together, and we made it. We got a chart, we developed our charter so that we could meet as a social club, and we had social action. I got involved in going to the mental hospital, the state mental hospital in Binghamton. Service there,
IG: 26:21
Oh, that is great.
HM: 26:23
So that I got involved in city action work. What is city action work? Looking at the issue of how people are treated in the state hospitals.
IG: 26:36
How marvelous.
HM: 26:37
How people access care. And I continue using that today in my community action work that I do here.
IG: 26:46
And so, what are and so the school actually paved the way for that opportunity. Or did you seek it out yourself? I mean, how did you-
HM: 26:55
I think that at-at the Student Union, there were always things up on the board for you to do. So maybe it happened through the Student Union. I do not know exactly, but I remember going to the state hospital and meeting people and-and it was an interesting experience. I mean, that might be one of the reasons that I was going to do child psychiatry. But the Navy did not want me as a psychiatrist; they wanted me as a pediatrician, so that I just did a year of psychiatry. But it has always been an important part of my life, and it probably started from back when I was in Binghamton.
IG: 27:35
What was the hospital?
HM: 27:37
The state mental hospital.
IG: 27:38
The state mental and was that in Binghamton, or Endicott?
HM: 27:42
I think it was in Binghamton.
IG: 27:44
In Binghamton. How-how interesting. So, at the hospital, did you assist doctors as they made their rounds, or?
HM: 27:53
Oh no-no-no- I think-
IG: 27:54
This is- what did you do exactly?
HM: 27:56
I do not necessarily remember exactly, but the issue is that I would go in and the issue of helping organize activities.
IG: 27:57
I see, I see.
HM: 28:12
So that I was part of the team that went in on a regular basis to give support when activities were being done, so which is meeting and greeting, and realizing that nobody is crazy all the time, the issue is everybody needs to have a friend, and that it was important to be a consistent object for these people. So that it taught me a little bit about my ego strengths, and it was fun.
IG: 28:42
Your ego stress.
HM: 28:43
Strengths.
IG: 28:44
Strength.
HM: 28:45
Strengths.
IG: 28:46
Ego strength, that is really fascinating. So how did you carry you-you felt that you-you know throughout your life, you-you somehow, you know, continue this continued the lessons gained from that experience.
HM: 29:02
That happened, I did in order to be board certified in peds; you have to do three years of general pediatrics. I actually did four years, because the fourth year was chief residency. So that I think that my whole issue at Binghamton was to also give me the tools to be a leader, so that you had a lot of bright people, and they were pushed into doing certain things, and maybe that also gave me the ability to know my strengths, so that it was not an issue, that I was not going to be chief resident, so that I was chief resident, and they only picked two out of every class to go on to becoming Chief and then psychiatry was marvelous, because it was just developmental stuff that I had been doing forever. So, it was fun to do psychiatry for a year. My wife did not like me as a psychiatrist, but I liked me as a psychiatrist. And then in the military, it was kind of interesting when you had to deal with hierarchy that was not as bright as you are, but it was also a very good experience, and that is what brought us out to the West Coast. Otherwise, we would still be back East.
IG: 30:21
That is, that is, that is very interesting. That is everything is that whole career arc. Do you think that you know your professors, knowing that you were facing the draft, protected you in some way by giving- I know that there was-
HM: 30:42
They would use that.
IG: 30:44
They would use that, oh.
HM: 30:46
If you do not do what I tell you to do, and you do not do well, you are going to flunk out, and if you flunk out, you are going to go directly into the military.
IG: 30:55
I see, I see. I- you know, I have heard varying things, but I guess I have not spoken to too many [inaudible]. I have spoken, actually, to another doctor, but somebody who became a doctor, but so did you, you know- So you gave me, sort of, you know, an overview of your career after Binghamton, and have you, have you stayed in touch with any of your classmates? You have not?
HM: 31:36
Jay Harold is my roommate. I have been in touch with.
IG: 31:38
You have been, you have been.
HM: 31:39
My old girlfriend who was married to my twin brother's best friend.
IG: 31:43
Oh, well.
HM: 31:43
I have been in contact with. Because he is a pathologist in Palm Springs, and his wife is a realtor now, but she was a political science major at Binghamton, and we know each other.
IG: 31:59
How did you, did you stay in touch with them throughout your life? Or, yeah. Did you notice big changes from because my understanding of the early (19)60s is that, you know, the type of student rebelliousness was a lot more docile than it became in the late (19)60s. Did you notice, you know, striking differences?
HM: 32:24
Well, I think as the war wore on and people became more incensed about what was going on, then people became much more radicalized, and I think that as the press became more involved, and you saw, when you were seeing more of what was going on, people became more radicalized. But we even in the early (19)60s, we knew that there were people who were provocateurs that were on campus, and they were there to get people involved.
IG: 33:03
Did Harpur have a reputation of, you know, being a radical college even then, back then, because it did in the late (19)60s.
HM: 33:16
It got, it was known as the diamond in the university system, that you had a lot of very-very bright kids, that is
IG: 33:27
That was a reputation, but did not have a reputation.
HM: 33:30
You also got that. It is a little bit more left than right.
IG: 33:42
What? You know? What are some of the greatest lessons that you learned from your time at Harpur that have benefited Well, you mentioned your psychiatric experience,
HM: 33:57
Community involvement.
IG: 33:59
Community involvement.
HM: 34:00
And I have been doing that forever, going into schools, being involved with how children are educated. I follow kids. I do I think for children in special education, they have an individual educational plan. And I go every year to multiple kids’ IEPs [Individualized Education Program], because my feeling is, is that they need to get what they need to get from school. And sometimes services are not allowed for certain children unless I show up.
IG: 34:32
That is fantastic.
HM: 34:34
So that I go, I do not get paid for it.
HM: 34:36
Yeah.
HM: 34:37
My issue is that it is my-my role as a pediatrician to be there. So, for some kids, I have been at every single IEP from preschool through high school.
IG: 34:50
That is fantastic.
HM: 34:51
And since I have been in the same practice for 40 years, I now see the kids of the kids, so I know these families so well.
IG: 34:59
And you think that you know this community, the germs for this community service mindset started at Harpur College. That is wonderful. Do you want to look through your [crosstalk] [looking at the yearbook]?
HM: 35:18
And it was just you can see from this how, if you take a look at the previous years, this is my graduating year.
HM: 35:25
Yeah.
HM: 35:26
This is very artsy. Once before this-
IG: 35:29
Yes.
HM: 35:30
The (19)63-
IG: 35:30
It is very artsy.
HM: 35:32
The (19)63, (19)64. the (19)65-
IG: 35:35
I like it.
HM: 35:36
Our regular look like any kind of and this is a very artsy,
IG: 35:41
Yes.
HM: 35:43
This is a change that occurred in (19)67. So (19)67 all of a sudden, it became this, you know, markedly different role here, stepping on the coat, which [crosstalk] there was mud, because we were in constant construction, and the weather was awful until the spring. And then you can see how this was.
IG: 36:14
It is beautifully laid out.
HM: 36:15
And this is 1967, when all of a sudden, this is the building. This was an administrative building, a new science building.
IG: 36:25
Right. These buildings, I think, still stand,
HM: 36:29
Now, they are the old buildings.
IG: 36:30
Yeah, now they are the old buildings.
HM: 36:31
Going down the mighty Susquehanna. This was each one of the- you would build these rafts, and the social clubs would compete against each other to go and see who could get down the river the quickest.
IG: 36:46
But you did not, you did not participate.
HM: 36:48
Oh, yeah, I was [crosstalk]
IG: 36:50
But you, yeah, you did not mention that.
HM: 36:53
Yeah.
IG: 36:55
So, you-you did play sports, did you?
HM: 37:00
I was on the student [crosstalk]
IG: 37:01
Oh, wow.
HM: 37:02
That is me.
HM: 37:14
This is the marches. You can see people.
IG: 37:17
This is from (19)67 probably.
HM: 37:19
This is (19)67.
IG: 37:19
Yeah, this is (19)67.
HM: 37:21
This is how the weather was majority of the time.
IG: 37:23
This is in Washington.
HM: 37:24
No.
IG: 37:25
This is in Binghamton. Oh, that is right, I recognize, yeah,
HM: 37:33
Going to the school.
IG: 37:37
That looks very much like the (19)60s [inaudible]. What-what-
HM: 37:54
So, there I am.
IG: 37:57
Oh, that is very nice of you. You look different. [laughs] I mean, it is not [crosstalk]
HM: 38:11
[crosstalk] so many years ago.
IG: 38:13
Yeah.
HM: 38:14
It is just kind of amazing. So here I must have been, maybe I was 20, maybe 19. Yeah, drinking.
IG: 38:27
That is sort of, you know, the overarching theme I ask. Another question I ask the people I interview is, you know, do you think that your generation's experience has something to say to students today?
HM: 38:54
I think that the issue of change and how we evoke change came through a period of time that was a tremendous amount of change that was going on, socially, economically, politically, and I think that now, with the issue of social media, things go even quicker, so that it is even harder to deal with the issue of change, but the issue of the university should allow you to have that period of time in a safe environment to reflect than how one deals with that, because the university should give you the ability the time to reflect and not just cram information down your throat.
IG: 39:35
That is great.
HM: 39:36
But need to do that issue of reflection. And Harpur was so different from New York City, which was so much more high-powered, it allowed you to do that. So, if I was at CCNY and my parents wanted me, I would have lived at home. I would have still been bound by the morality of what was my parents-
IG: 39:57
Right.
HM: 39:58
-and I would not have grown as much as. I did when I was outside.
IG: 40:04
It is a great-great response. And the theater is so interesting. It is, it is very the program now is a very strong one. Was it then?
HM: 40:25
Oh yes, very strong.
IG: 40:28
Did you have? Did you have an opportunity to attend plays or a musical group, but you-you did not have the time to participate.
HM: 40:38
I did not have the time to participate, but I did attend.
IG: 40:41
You did attend?
HM: 40:42
Oh yeah.
IG: 40:50
Were there any international students that you remember?
HM: 40:53
No.
IG: 40:53
No, it was, it was pretty much-
HM: 40:56
Yeah, you can see very vanilla.
IG: 40:58
Yes, very vanilla. So, you know, I think you know, you have spoken what, what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? I think you have, you have talked about, you know, the time to grow, the time to have a safe space, anything else that you would like to add to that.
HM: 41:22
And the issue of competition, so that actually, medical school was easier than Binghamton. The hardest thing about medical school was getting into medical school.
IG: 41:31
Right.
HM: 41:32
But Binghamton was much harder than medical school, because medical school is just memorization. You do not have to do any kind of interpretive work. All you have to do is memorize.
IG: 41:45
Right.
HM: 41:46
So, where in Binghamton, you had to think. You did not have to think too much in medical school. You just had to memorize so that it was an entirely different experience in medical school. So, Binghamton gave you that ability to develop those parts of you that need reflection. [inaudible] medical school, you do not have to do any of that.
IG: 41:47
Thank you so much. It has been really insightful. And do you have anything?
HM: 42:14
And I think Susan might have given you- Susan is in Detroit this weekend, this week, she is went on Tuesday, because she is one of the national accountants of the United States Figure Skating Association. So, she goes all over the United States doing accounting. Even though she was a German major, she was very smart. And when our kids got into figure skating, Susan had to get involved in figure skating. So, she became the president of the Arizona figure skating club.
IG: 42:38
Right.
HM: 42:41
She then became a national accountant. Taught herself all the things she needed to know, and now she goes around the United States doing accounting. She got me involved, so I was one of the team docs. The United States circuit skating association took the kids all over the world as one of the team docs, which was fun, but now I am getting too old for that.
IG: 43:04
Well, thank you so much. It has been, it has been a wonderful actually, I know I just spoke to somebody who knows your wife, a Sue Castaldo, who is in Phoenix.
HM: 43:14
Oh, really?
IG: 43:15
Yeah-yeah.
HM: 43:15
How did she know Susan?
IG: 43:17
I think through the accounting-
HM: 43:20
Oh, through the-
IG: 43:21
-accounting field, yeah.
HM: 43:23
The United States Figure Skating Association?
IG: 43:25
No.
HM: 43:27
Oh, because Susan is in because of her medical bill?
IG: 43:31
That is right, that is right. That is how she knows.
HM: 43:33
Yeah.
IG: 43:35
So, we are going to conclude our interview right now. Thank you very-very much.
HM: 43:43
So, what is going to happen with this?
IG: 43:45
Okay, I will tell you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Harold Magalnick
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Magalnick, Harold ; Gashurov, Irene
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-02-28
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eng
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Harold Magalnick.mp3
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2019-02-28
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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43:47 minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7e94a3071777684d0eb0bfa99af75d4.mp3
8a994229d63f53f87e811a60fa3fa103
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Oral Histories
Title
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-02-28
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sue Castaldo
Year of Graduation
1963
Biographical Text
Sue Castaldo, of Italian descent, grew up in Mechanicville, New York, and graduated from Harpur College in 1963 with a degree in sociology and anthropology. While at Harpur, she met her husband, Ed Yaw, and together they raised four children. Sue began her career in education, teaching in Vestal schools and later working with adult learners in Illinois. She went on to earn an MBA from Adelphi University in 1983 and transitioned into customer service at Bank of America in Phoenix. A successful entrepreneur, Sue owned and operated the retail candy business Candy in Bloom for 25 years. Now retired, she continues to live in Phoenix, Arizona.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in small business; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni from Mechanicville, New York; Harpur College – Alumni of Italian descent
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Sue Castaldo
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 28 February 2019
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(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:00
So, please Sue. I would like you to introduce yourself, let us know where we are sitting, and what we are going to do.
SC: 00:11
Okay, my name is Sue Costello. We are in Phoenix, Arizona. Where are we? So, um, ASU [Arizona State University] office, and we are going to be talking about my experiences at Harpur College in the (19)60s.
IG: 00:24
Very good. Okay, so Sue. We can begin. And what year did you graduate?
SC: 00:30
I graduated in (19)63.
IG: 00:31
Where are you from?
SC: 00:35
I am from Mechanicville, New York.
IG: 00:37
Oh, and where is that exactly?
SC: 00:40
It is between Albany and Saratoga, right on the Hudson, a little, tiny town.
IG: 00:47
So, you know, where did your- just tell me a little bit about your background, who your parents were, what they did.
SC: 00:58
My dad was a career army. So, we moved around a little bit. When I was a child, we lived in Panama for a while. Mom was a stay-at-home mom until they got, they got divorced when I was a when I was a freshman at Harpur, and she then worked in a local department store. They are both, they are both gone now.
IG: 01:28
Are they from Mechanicville themselves?
SC: 01:31
They were from Mechanicville. They were both of their parents. My grandparents came here as immigrants from Italy. Yeah, my small town is mostly Italian, mostly from the same area.
IG: 01:43
How interesting. Where in Italy were they from? Do you know?
SC: 01:49
Around the Naples area.
IG: 01:52
Have you been watching the Elena Ferranti series on HBO?
SC: 02:00
No.
IG: 02:00
My Brilliant Friend, it is set in Naples.
SC: 02:06
Oh.
IG: 02:06
After the war.
SC: 02:07
We are planning to go to Italy in September, so that would be nice.
IG: 02:13
And so, you grew up there, and you lived in Panama for a while. How long were you in Panama?
SC: 02:21
A couple of years, I was like, eight years old.
IG: 02:23
Oh, I see. Where did you go to high school?
SC: 02:28
In Mechanicville.
IG: 02:29
Yeah, and-
SC: 02:30
Yeah.
IG: 02:30
A public school or?
SC: 02:31
Yes-yes. I laugh at today's schools of 1000s. My graduating class had 140 students in it.
IG: 02:42
So, do you think that you got a better education as a result?
SC: 02:46
I feel like I got a good education. I had good teachers. I should have done better at Harpur, but I was experiencing so many things that I had never experienced before, coming from that little town.
IG: 03:02
Well, we would like to talk about that.
SC: 03:05
We had, like, I swear, two or three Jewish families in town, one black family. That was it. The rest of us were Italians. [laughs] And when I went to college, it was like, Oh my gosh. I did not even know what a bagel was, and I had so many Jewish friends, it was a brand-new experience for me. There were not- I remember two, one black person, one person from India, one person from Barbados, and they were all friends of mine, but that is it. Harpur was like, what 400, 600 students when I, when I started,
IG: 03:52
Tell me a little bit about I am very interested in your Italian community in Mechanicsville.
SC: 03:58
No mechanics. There was only one mechanic; there is no s [laughs].
IG: 04:00
Mechanic.
SC: 04:01
Mechanicville. [laughs]
IG: 04:04
Mechanicville. So, did you grow up hearing Italian spoken?
SC: 04:11
Yes, yeah, yes, in grandparents’ homes, my mom did not speak Italian, but she spoke Italian to her-her parents. But we did not speak it at home, so I understood more than I spoke.
IG: 04:27
But that is wonderful.
SC: 04:29
It was wonderful.
IG: 04:30
Yeah, so you grew up in two cultures.
SC: 04:33
Yes-yes.
IG: 04:36
Did you have an interest in learning more about your familial culture?
SC: 04:46
No, because I felt like I knew quite a bit.
IG: 04:50
Yes.
SC: 04:52
Yeah, they were, I mean, they came over on the boat. [laughs]
IG: 04:58
And so, you knew about the cuisine-
SC: 05:01
Oh yes.
IG: 05:01
-a little about the language, their histories-
SC: 05:09
Not so much their histories. No, I have photos and, you know, and names, and but not so much about their histories. In my head, they came from that little, little smaller towns than where we were in Italy, you know, like close together. And I think even my great grandparents were from that those same little towns.
IG: 05:40
Was education valued in your family?
SC: 05:45
Not particularly, not in my extended family, yes, especially my dad's side. My mom only had one brother. My dad had six, and a couple of them were school teachers. One of them in particular pushed a lot, but yeah, but just extended family more than you know.
IG: 06:12
So, what did they tell you about your schooling? Do they say do well, go to college.
SC: 06:18
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Definitely pushed for college. And in my generation, I was the first one to go to college in my generation, and one of my brothers went to junior college. And my niece, who is 10 years younger than I, she went to college and she-she retired as a guidance counselor. So, there was some, but in my generation.
IG: 06:56
So, what was your thinking about college as you were going to high school? Did you have a clear idea that this is what you would like to do, and what would you like to do?
SC: 07:08
I really did not have an idea of what I would like to do.
IG: 07:11
Right.
SC: 07:13
I knew I wanted a liberal arts education. And I looked at Harpur because it had such a good reputation, it was close enough to home, but far enough away that I did not have to live at home. I wanted that experience.
IG: 07:30
And is this the reason that you chose Harpur rather than Albany or Buffalo?
SC: 07:37
You know, I cannot even remember if I applied to Albany. If I went to Albany, I would probably have to live at home, so that-that came into. Buffalo, forget it, no snow. I mean, there is enough snow in Binghamton. [laughs] But I did not know too much about this school, and when I got there, I was, "Oh, my God, what an experience that was."
IG: 08:04
So, what were your first impressions?
SC: 08:06
Mud-mud and boardwalks. There were only four dormitories, a student union. Maybe the library was there. Then, no classrooms, no, we took buses to Endicott. Had classes in old army barracks. We wore gloves to take tests. I mean, cold came through the windows and the walls. It was fun, but the first impression was definitely mud everywhere.
IG: 08:48
But you saw, you know, a wooded area, or-
SC: 08:52
It was gorgeous.
IG: 08:53
It was gorgeous.
SC: 08:54
It was beautiful. I mean, there were hills and trees all around the campus.
IG: 08:59
And you arrived in early autumn?
SC: 09:01
Yes.
IG: 09:02
And you had never seen the campus before?
SC: 09:04
No-no.
IG: 09:06
So, you met students, and what were they like?
SC: 09:14
They were just fantastic. I mean, they were all from New York City. They were worldly. They were people that I learned so much from. It was great.
IG: 09:27
Like, what kind of things did you learn from?
SC: 09:30
Well, I learned about the Jewish culture.
IG: 09:32
Yeah.
SC: 09:34
I learned about New York City.
IG: 09:39
For example, give us a few examples. What did you learn about the Jewish culture? What did you learn about New York City?
SC: 09:46
Well, the Jewish culture, I learned about their holidays, and I learned about their cuisine, and a little bit about their religion. I learned that they were; it might be the Mediterranean culture. They were so much like Italians in the fact that they were very family-oriented. Yeah, and they were smart.
IG: 10:18
And they were very smart.
SC: 10:19
They were very smart. And I looked around, and I said, "What am I doing here?"
IG: 10:23
Yeah, did you feel that you had to catch up, that you had to study more as a result, or?
SC: 10:32
I did. I did. But you know, I really did not do that. [laughs]
IG: 10:32
Well, tell us what you did.
SC: 10:38
I played a lot.
IG: 10:39
Yeah.
SC: 10:40
I was- somebody called me a few months ago that I had dated 50 years ago, and he said I was looking through the Harpur directory, I guess the newest one. And he said, "I found you when you were still alive." [laughs] He said, "I am glad you are still alive," but he remembered me as a Spitfire. I do not remember that, but I was- I had a small circle of friends, but I feel like I knew almost everybody, because I loved people, and I would go where there were people, and I just knew everybody.
IG: 11:24
So, how did you know everybody?
SC: 11:27
Through classes, and we would have what we called Hoot and Nannies sing-alongs. We would have movies in the lounge areas.
IG: 11:36
Of the Student Union?
SC: 11:39
And in the dorms and in the dorms. Yeah, I do not; you know, I did not participate in a lot of extracurricular activities, but I did belong to the Newman Club.
IG: 11:52
And what was that?
SC: 11:53
It was a Catholic organization, and I also was in the chorus for a while. So, I knew some people that way.
IG: 12:04
What, what kind of music would you sing?
SC: 12:06
You know, I cannot remember.
IG: 12:08
Was it classical? Was it folk? Was it-
SC: 12:11
Wasn't folk? No.
IG: 12:13
Popular, or?
SC: 12:14
It was a little bit of classical, a little bit of popular. You had to please everybody, I guess.
IG: 12:22
So, you socialized a lot, and you met a, not really a diverse, but a different kind of student body, right?
SC: 12:32
It was not very diverse. I mean, we did not have that many international students, but I made sure I got to know who they were.
IG: 12:45
Did you have a sense of how they felt about being there among so many different people, or did you feel a kindred spirit to them? Because you felt, at first, you must have felt-
SC: 12:58
I did not feel well. I may have, I may have. But the couple, I mean, they were so two of them in particular, were very outgoing, a fellow from India, he was a little more reserved, but the others just kind of fit in. They joined social clubs, and that is another thing I did not do.
IG: 13:21
Why didn't you do that?
SC: 13:22
To me, it was like a sorority. It was not sororities and fraternities, but-but it was, I just- it did not interest me. It just would not.
IG: 13:35
What should interest you? What-what were your classes about, you know-
SC: 13:39
Well, I started my major, ended up being sociology, with sociology, anthropology, and what I was going to do with that, I had no idea, but it sounded interesting to me.
IG: 13:54
Was it interesting?
SC: 13:55
It was, and I carried through all the way with it, all the way through, I did not change.
IG: 14:00
So, are there any classes or professors that stand out?
SC: 14:05
Oh yes-yes-yes, I wrote them down. You know what? I went through my yearbook.
IG: 14:13
Okay.
SC: 14:14
Because I did not think I would remember their names. I remembered their names, but I do remember who did what. Dr. Savage, in philosophy. I had never had a philosophy course.
IG: 14:26
So, what kind of things-
SC: 14:28
Absolutely-
IG: 14:29
-he opened your mind to?
SC: 14:31
Absolutely loved it. A lot of it was logic. And I had never been exposed to logic. And I have always been a very logical person. And he just explained it so well. And another one was Dr. Levin, and he taught a course in law, which fascinated me. I had taken an aptitude test once since, and they told me I should have been a tax lawyer. I guess that is where the logic comes in as well. And I really enjoyed his class. And there was an English class, Dr. Kasberg. I see these, and these were all freshman classes, and they were all taught in the old colonial building in Endicott. Have you been in that building?
IG: 15:22
No.
SC: 15:24
Have you seen that building? It is gorgeous.
IG: 15:26
No.
SC: 15:27
It was all run down then, though, and the classes were held upstairs, kind of in an attic, it was-
IG: 15:33
And the barracks were also in Endicott.
SC: 15:36
Yes-yes.
IG: 15:37
Do you remember Bill Vogley from that time?
SC: 15:41
I do remember that name.
IG: 15:42
Name, because he also describes barracks,
SC: 15:48
Cold.
IG: 15:49
Cold and snow covering into the barracks.
SC: 15:52
Wearing gloves.
IG: 15:53
Yeah.
SC: 15:53
But that is how you got to know everybody. You were crammed in these little buildings, and you- there was no place to go that was not, that was not a campus, you know, so you really did get to know everybody.
IG: 16:08
Was there a bus to take you back to your dorms?
SC: 16:11
Yes.
IG: 16:12
Did any of the students drive their own cars?
SC: 16:15
No, not until I do not remember anybody driving their own cars as a freshman, but as an upperclassman, I remember some, but I think most of them, the ones from New York City, did not know how to drive. They never had to drive. The ones who drove were the townies, and I knew so many of them. I do not know how I just people gravitate to me. They still do. I do not understand why, but I knew the very-very popular people, and I also knew the not-so-popular people, and we were all kind of friendly.
IG: 16:59
So, you socialized with your classmates in the dormitories, but where else in town?
SC: 17:13
We did we had a roller rink in Endicott that we could bus to you. I did that there was Pat Mitchell's ice cream, which I think is still there on Endicott, you are missing out. [laughs] And you know, typical college students, there was a bar in Endicott, I mean, in Binghamton, that was not very far from campus.
IG: 17:42
What was it called?
SC: 17:43
I cannot remember Sullivan's, and there is one, and there was one, and we used to play shuffleboard in that place, and we would go to a place in Johnson City. And I cannot remember the name of that one, but that is where we had speedies, and I think it is still there.
IG: 18:02
What was the drinking age then? Did they check licenses? No?
SC: 18:07
I do not ever remember them checking these. I do not, and I did have a circle offense that we went to church in Binghamton, and I even I started a group. There were people at church that wanted to do something, and I suggested, how about you adopt some college students and invite them to your homes? And-
IG: 18:07
How nice.
SC: 18:40
-like an adopt-a-grandmother kind of thing. And I had a group that went to this Mrs. Taylor's house on Pennsylvania Avenue almost every Sunday for fried chicken.
IG: 18:51
Oh, how nice.
SC: 18:52
It was so cool. I do not know how long it lasted. I cannot remember.
IG: 18:57
So, you discovered organizational abilities in yourself, right?
SC: 19:01
Yes.
IG: 19:03
Did you know that you have them before?
SC: 19:07
You know, I belonged to an awful lot of stuff in high school, but I do not think I myself organized anything. I was kind of a shy- I was a nerd. They know me in high school is, you know, a smart, a smarty. I was not that way in college. [laughs] I think if I got out with a C average, that was good.
IG: 19:35
So, you, you know, any-any noteworthy academics that you can think of, in addition to those three profs that you mentioned.
SC: 19:53
No, there were some I did not like at all. I had a calculus class that I went to one day and dropped out, mostly because I did not understand the subject right away. And the woman who taught the class was Indian, and I had a very hard time understanding her. So, I said, Okay, I do not need this class. So, I got out of that class.
IG: 20:27
Um, was- were most of the professors’ locals, or were they from- they-they were from other countries? Was-
SC: 20:40
They were not. I do not remember anyone from another country, except that-that math teacher, I think most of them were local. In fact, I worked for Professor Dodge. She was one of my sociology professors, and he had a couple of small children, and he needed help at you know, he and his wife needed help at home with the kids, and I remember doing some lighthouse work for them too. So, I did work, and that is another place I met a lot of people. I worked in the linen room. They would bring down their dirty linen, and I would give them clean linen. And I mean, and that was everybody in that dorm.
IG: 21:27
So that was a way that you would make pocket money.
SC: 21:30
Mm-hmm.
IG: 21:31
Were you a Regents scholar?
SC: 21:33
Yes.
IG: 21:35
Do you remember what the college cost you at all? Were you- was it paid for it entirely?
SC: 21:44
You know, I kind of remember $12 in credit hours. That sounds about right?
IG: 21:50
I do not know.
SC: 21:52
That is what I remember. I did not come from a lot of money. I must have had some scholarships. I won prizes in- at graduation from high school, and I know some of them were partial scholarships. I had a grandmother who used to give me money all the time when I came home and went back to school, and my mom would send me $5 every once in a while, but that was that. So, I did the linen, and I worked for Professor Dodge. And there, I cannot remember who there was another professor who brought their kids over from time to time, and I would babysit the group.
IG: 22:39
For their- were there other students doing similar things to you? Were they making money outside of campus or?
SC: 22:52
In my group, I do not [crosstalk], but there has always been kids who worked in the cafeteria, but in my little circle, I do not remember anybody. I know one-one girl who started out being a roommate. She spent her last three years, I think, living with the Andersons. He was a math teacher. She was a math major, and she would help out around their houses. He was in a wheelchair, and she helped out around their house and for room and board, she lived with them. They lived like right on the edge of campus, which is no longer the edge of campus. [laughs]
IG: 23:38
Did you feel that you were more grown up than the others because you had to pay your way?
SC: 23:44
No.
IG: 23:46
No. How did that make you feel better? Bigger?
SC: 23:52
I never-
IG: 23:54
Self-sufficient?
SC: 23:55
I never felt that. No, I just felt like this was what I had to do.
IG: 23:59
What you had to do.
SC: 24:00
And I did it.
IG: 24:03
What-what kinds of things would you talk about with your roommates, with your classmates?
SC: 24:10
Well, a lot of times it had to do with classes. If they had the same classes that that I did.
IG: 24:17
Right.
SC: 24:20
We would talk about our families back home and kid stuff, mostly, you know, clothing. It was
IG: 24:37
Dating?
SC: 24:38
That too.
IG: 24:39
Were you dating?
SC: 24:40
A lot. a lot.
IG: 24:43
You were dating a lot.
SC: 24:45
Yes, it was fun.
IG: 24:49
It was fun. And you and you would spend your time off campus, on campus?
SC: 24:55
Mostly on campus, because there were no cars there. You know, the buses were mostly for going back and forth to Endicott to school. If somebody had a car, we would go to the movies, like I said, we would go roller skating, but it was mostly on campus. We would have dances in the gym.
IG: 25:18
Right.
SC: 25:19
And that, that type of thing.
IG: 25:23
Did you feel that you were going to meet your husband-
SC: 25:27
I did.
IG: 25:28
-during- You did?
SC: 25:29
Yes.
IG: 25:29
Well, tell us about it.
SC: 25:32
I do not know very much. [laughs] He was, he was very popular. He was, at one point, he was the president of the Student Government.
IG: 25:42
Are you still married to him?
SC: 25:43
No, I was married to him for 16 years. Yeah, but no, maybe not.
IG: 25:49
I mean, since he is an alum, could you mention his name?
SC: 25:52
Yeah, his name is Ed Yaw. Y-W-W.
IG: 25:54
Okay.
SC: 25:58
Yeah, I do not know how involved he is, and I have never, I have been to a couple of college reunions, and I do not, I have never seen him there. No, and we are in touch because we did have four children together. And we go to all kinds of things that kid, you know, for the kids, you know, all the times up until this day.
IG: 26:25
Was he from New York?
SC: 26:27
Yes, he was from a small town to Potsdam, upstate New York. His-his father was a music teacher there. He taught French horn and cello. Yeah.
IG: 26:40
So, uh-
SC: 26:43
I think we met, and he was a year younger, so the first time we met each other, it was, you know, I was a sophomore, and we got married when he was a senior, and I was teaching in Vestal.
IG: 27:03
You were already teaching?
SC: 27:05
Yeah.
IG: 27:05
So, you-
SC: 27:05
I went to-
IG: 27:07
[crosstalk] slightly older.
SC: 27:08
I was a year older. I went to an intensive Teacher Training Program at Oneonta during this my- the summer after my graduation.
IG: 27:19
I see.
SC: 27:19
And then I got a teaching job in Vestal and taught for two years.
IG: 27:24
So, how long did you remain in Vestal?
SC: 27:30
Teaching in Vestal for two years, we lived in Johnson City. And then when he graduated a year after I did, in (19)60 he graduated in (19)64 he started working in the admissions office, and I believe he worked in the admissions office for two years, maybe three, and then we went to Carbondale, Illinois, so he could get his PhD in college administration, Southern Illinois University.
IG: 28:10
What kind of um, so, what kind of work did you- what was your career in? Teaching?
SC: 28:16
Mostly teaching. I did not. I was a stay-at-home mom for a long time, for a really long time. I mean, I did the two years of teaching in Vestal, and I had, you know, two little guys when we moved to Carbondale, and I taught some out there in a federal program for adults.
IG: 28:38
I see and what kind of federal program.
SC: 28:42
I cannot remember what it was, but I remember teaching. I just remember this one 85-year-old woman, a black woman, a cotton picker. We taught her how to write her name for the very first time. It was that kind of thing. It was just amazing. It was amazing. And when we came back to New York, we came back to Long Beach. I did a lot of little nothings. I sewed for somebody, some little shop, but I did not really have a career until I got divorced, and I got my MBA at Adelphi, and I went into the payroll business. I-I was a Customer Service Manager at a payroll company, and started out in Manhattan, moved to Queens, and that is what brought me out here. I got transferred out here.
IG: 29:35
Could you mention the companies that you worked for?
SC: 29:37
I worked it was called Payroll Plus when I first started.
IG: 29:45
When-when was that?
SC: 29:46
That was in (19)86 No-no-no-no-no-no, (19)81. Yeah, because I moved out of New York in (19)86. Yeah, in (19)81 I started there, and they moved me out here, and then Bank of America bought that payroll. So, I worked for Bank of America until they sold it to ADP, and that is when I said, "No more."
IG: 30:14
So when-when did you when did you retire?
SC: 30:16
I never retired.
IG: 30:18
You never retired [crosstalk].
SC: 30:21
No [crosstalk] doing that. I-I started my-my own. It was not my own business. I started; I was a licensee of a company in Texas. They do not exist anymore, though. I started this. I always wanted to be a florist. I started a candy bouquet business, and I had a retail shop for 12 years, and then I moved it home, because my mother came out to stay with me. She stayed with me for three years before she died. But that was perfect. I moved it home, and when I made deliveries, she came with me. So, I-
IG: 30:45
Do you still have a business?
SC: 30:58
I just stopped accepting credit cards. I closed down my website, but I still have some customers that call me. So, I-
IG: 31:09
What was the name of your business?
SC: 31:11
Candy and bloom. I think I saw it somewhere on your list, Candy and Bloom.
IG: 31:17
But this is for, this is for our listening audience,
SC: 31:21
Okay.
IG: 31:21
It is not for me.
SC: 31:22
Candy and Bloom. And it was a licensee of a Texas company when I-I was working in Texas for Bank of America for a while, for I cannot even remember if it was a whole year or not. And I found this little shop, and I fell in love with it. So, I bought the license, and away I went.
IG: 31:45
That is very interesting. I would like to circle back to your college days.
SC: 31:52
Okay.
IG: 31:53
And ask you, what were the politics that if, if any that were being discussed on campus?
SC: 32:02
I remember falling in with a group that I do not know if they identified themselves or we all did, as the original beatniks, and I remember being encouraged by that group was a very artistic group, if you ever get a chance to look at a yearbook from that time, there was a club called the outing club, and it was mostly those people, and it was not real friendly with them. I just knew them, and I do not know how they kept encouraging me to do sit-in or sit-out when there were bomb drills and that kind of thing.
IG: 32:50
You were doing bomb drills-
SC: 32:51
We were-
IG: 32:51
-on campus?
SC: 32:53
Um, yeah.
IG: 32:56
Against the threat of their Soviet empire? Is that what you were doing?
SC: 33:00
Maybe it was not, maybe it was not, I do not know, we were not doing drills, but something was going on, and they were doing these great big sit-ins on the lawn in front of the Student Union
SC: 33:19
Protesting what?
SC: 33:20
Protesting nuclear bombs, nuclear weapons. They were very active, very vocal.
IG: 33:31
Did they protest on campus alone, or did they go out to town or Washington?
SC: 33:38
No-no, it was always on campus.
IG: 33:41
And so, this was a small group.
SC: 33:43
It was a small group.
IG: 33:44
It was a small group.
SC: 33:45
I would say, no more than, no more than 25.
IG: 33:50
So, did you feel an affiliation with them in some way? Were you also against the bomb?
SC: 33:55
Yeah-yeah.
IG: 33:56
Yeah. What kind of music did you listen to?
SC: 34:01
Folk music mostly.
IG: 34:03
Yeah.
SC: 34:04
Yeah.
IG: 34:04
Peter, Paul, and Mary.
SC: 34:05
Yeah. And we did Joan Baez. We did a lot of folk singing. There was a lot there were a lot of guitars on campus.
IG: 34:13
That is right. You are a singer.
SC: 34:14
One of my roommates played guitar, and she knew all the folk songs. And we did folk dancing in the gym. That was all new to me.
IG: 34:30
Did you feel that you were swept up by some kind of youth movement on campus, you know, that was the beatniks were part of-
SC: 34:40
No, I was a pretty independent thinker too. Yeah, I did not really submerge myself in-in that group.
IG: 34:52
What were some of the other groups discussing?
SC: 34:58
You know, I cannot. There was a group that tried to get me to play bridge. Those are the intellectuals.
IG: 35:07
I am thinking about politics.
SC: 35:08
Politics? You know, I do not remember anything political except for that one group, and I guess I remember a lot of political activity after (19)63 and I was trying to figure out what happened to me here, because I remember the day that Kennedy was shot, I was teaching, and I remember being on campus with a whole group of people watching TV for days, but my husband was still in school. He was not my husband then, but he was, he was still in school. So, I think that is how that happened, that I happened to be on campus then, and there was a lot of discussion at that point in time, but I do not remember anything very political.
IG: 36:11
But what were people saying? How awful.
SC: 36:14
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is really all I remember, sorry.
IG: 36:22
Uh, what were- did you notice, you know, the changing mores? Did you know women feel that they have to? Did they envision any kind of future for themselves beyond getting married-
SC: 36:42
Oh, at that school, absolutely.
IG: 36:46
Tell us about that.
SC: 36:46
Absolutely. I mean, these were these-these were career women, these were intelligent women.
IG: 36:54
Right.
SC: 36:55
Yeah-yeah.
IG: 36:57
It is not to say that intelligent women did not streamline into getting married [crosstalk]
SC: 37:05
Right-right. And I, and I was not either, you know, but it happened, you know. It happens. But those were women who were, they were going to go out and be lawyers and doctors, and they were going to do stuff.
IG: 37:08
And did they do the stuff? Yeah, have you kept in touch with some of these women?
SC: 37:27
I have.
IG: 37:28
So, what-what you know, what did they do?
SC: 37:31
Bonnie Malecon was a chemist, and she became a chemist for NASA.
IG: 37:37
Wow.
SC: 37:38
And she worked in Boston. Stephanie Mandelbaum. She was Stephanie Singer at the time, and she did not even graduate. She was in my freshman year. She was a math professor at what was, what was the girls’ part of Rutgers. I always forget there is a girls’ school that goes along with Rutgers. There is a girl's counterpart-
IG: 38:09
Oh, Douglas College.
SC: 38:10
It was either there or Rutgers, one of the two where she where she taught math. I think they are both retired now, and Wren de Mattis, she was from Saranac Lake. She married. She and her husband started a computer company for municipalities. She now lives in France with her with another husband; her first husband died, and we visited them 20 years ago. [crosstalk]That was nice. That was nice, yeah. You know, I think most of the people that I am still in touch with those-those are the women, the others are all men.
IG: 39:07
So, all the others are all men, and where are the- I mean, how do you get together? Do you get together individually?
SC: 39:17
We do not- we mostly do it on Facebook- anymore.
IG: 39:19
I see.
SC: 39:20
That is how we keep in touch.
IG: 39:21
I see, I see.
SC: 39:23
And sometimes by telephone.
IG: 39:25
And sometimes by telephone. Are there any chapters for, I mean-
SC: 39:29
You know, there was a chapter here, but I think it just kind of fell apart. We-we started to get together. When was me, was it? Could it have been loved floor who came out here? It might have been, and she had a cocktail party at a local at a downtown restaurant or hotel, and several of us who graduated together got together, and we also had, we all met at another restaurant not too long after that, and then somebody organized a trip to a baseball game. They were all younger people, and I thought they would keep it going right, but I never heard another thing after that.
IG: 40:17
How long ago was that?
SC: 40:21
Oh, it has been a few years. It has been years.
IG: 40:28
Okay. So, when you look back at your years in Binghamton at Harpur, what do you think that the college gave you? How were you changed by that experience?
SC: 40:46
It grew me up.
IG: 40:51
Yeah.
SC: 40:54
I got a little bit more self-esteem, a little I got to be a little bit more outgoing. I was kind of shy in high school, even though I did not know a lot of people, but it was a small town. Yeah, more self-esteem, and you touched on something earlier, organizational ability. So many people are afraid of public speaking, and it brought you know that out in me, I would, I would speak up in class more than I more than I did before.
IG: 41:31
What kind of things would you speak up against? Or did you just answer questions?
SC: 41:37
I just answered questions. Or if we were in an, in a discussion, I would take part. But I know I cannot remember particulars. Come on, it was a long time ago.
IG: 41:46
The general tenor, you know, some people were confronted authority. Others argumentative.
SC: 41:56
I do not remember confronting authority at all. You do not know, except for that one group.
IG: 42:05
But they, but you were not part of that group.
SC: 42:07
I was not part of that group.
IG: 42:10
Right?
SC: 42:10
No.
IG: 42:11
But you were friends with them.
SC: 42:12
Yes.
IG: 42:14
You know, did you feel that there were different expectations for women than there were for men?
SC: 42:25
I never felt that.
IG: 42:27
You never felt.
SC: 42:28
I never felt that at all. No. I felt like we were treated as equals.
IG: 42:37
So, there were no greater restrictions on the freedoms of women as opposed to men.
SC: 42:45
I am trying to remember if the men had a curfew like the women did, and I cannot remember.
IG: 42:50
That is, that is, that is one of the restrictions.
SC: 42:50
We did have curfews.
IG: 42:50
That is one of the restrictions.
SC: 42:54
Yes.
IG: 42:56
What do you think? Do you- do you believe that your generation's experience can teach, can say something to the present generation? Do you think that there are any, you know, major sort of lessons or major experiences that-that you were just-
SC: 43:22
I think-
IG: 43:22
-that would be useful for the current generation.
SC: 43:26
Yeah, I do not know that they would listen. You know-
IG: 43:30
You have a captive audience. They are listening [crosstalk]
SC: 43:32
More civility. I mean, we did not confront authority. We had respect for our professors and each other; I do not see that anymore. We were kinder. I mean, there was probably an oddball out there who was not so kind, but I did not meet him.
IG: 44:05
Do you think this is true of this generation, or just the culture outside of Harpur College?
SC: 44:11
Oh, I think it is the culture-
IG: 44:13
Outside of Harpur College?
SC: 44:15
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
IG: 44:18
So, it is not; it does not really have to do with a generation, this current generation of young people, but it has more to do with a culture outside of Harpur College. What do you think?
SC: 44:35
Well, I think I, you know, I do not know what Harpur College is like these days. It is kind of a smaller college of my Harpur College, gosh, speaking to today's generation from Harpur College, my Harpur College. It, yeah, it is the authority. It is the respect for individuals that stands out in my mind, the respect for human life. Times have changed, and not for the best, and I wish we could go back.
IG: 45:26
What lessons did you learn from this time in your life?
SC: 45:32
I learned how to get along with a lot of different people, and I learned that you do not have a lot of money. Have to have a lot of money to have a good time and a good education, and you can be just as, just as good as somebody who has got a lot of money. I mean, I came from nothing, and I do not think anybody knew that about me, and I do not think anybody cared. Was a different time.
IG: 46:12
It is a different time, but it is also a different group of people at Harpur College; it might not have been the same experience elsewhere, or do you think would have been?
SC: 46:25
Might have. I do not know, [crosstalk], I kind of remember another person that I really got along with, really, really well. She was this big, she was a little person, and she lived on my floor, and we got along really well. I came to college wearing a, this is my Spitfire thing. I wore a kilt, you know, a little short skirt, big safety. She borrowed it all the time. And there was another one on my floor who was, she was a Hulk, and she was an RA, and she was not very nice, but she was nice to me, and I do not know why.
IG: 47:07
You must have drawn that out from people.
SC: 47:12
I do not know. I do not know I like people.
IG: 47:20
That is, that is, I think that is key. I think that is key. So, I am just looking back at you at your life so far. What do you know, some of the lessons that you have learned from your experience at Harpur and your life that you would like to share with you know, young people listening to this interview, what are some of the key elements to having a successful life?
SC: 47:57
Well, I think I have touched on almost all of them, as you know, just put yourself out there, and do not be afraid to mix with other kinds of people. And, you know, respect each other, basically.
IG: 48:16
Do you have any concluding remarks?
SC: 48:19
I do not, other than I loved my experience there. I really, really did. I had a good experience. I have, I have a cousin whose son did not have a good experience there, and I felt bad for him. He went to Harpur.
IG: 48:39
But when?
SC: 48:40
Probably was probably almost 20 years ago.
IG: 48:47
It was a different, a different time.
SC: 48:49
It was a different time, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, I was lost a lot of the time in classes where I mean, what am I doing here? These are smart people, but I persevered, and I got through. Just keep on trucking.
IG: 49:18
Well, that is great. That is great advice. Thank you so much.
SC: 49:21
You are so welcome. I talked a little bit.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Sue Castaldo
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Castaldo, Sue ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
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2019-02-28
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Sue Castaldo.mp3
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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49:24 minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3
31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
2/15/2019
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
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Mark Kachadourian
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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20:47
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Mark Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 14 February 2019
Interview Setting: Vestal, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:02
JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from?
00:25
MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York.
00:34
JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian?
00:45
MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian.
01:02
JK: And where are they from?
01:06
MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age.
01:28
JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side?
01:34
MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well.
01:41
JK: And where are they from?
01:44
MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head.
01:52
JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States?
02:02
MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here.
02:22
JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia?
02:29
MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape.
02:44
JK: Do you recall any stories from that?
02:50
MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories.
03:31
JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you
03:35
MK: From my grandfather telling me.
03:38
JK: So he was there, he personally escaped.
03:41
MK: Yes.
03:44
JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America?
03:48
MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada,
04:28
JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States.
04:35
MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head.
04:55
JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide?
05:09
MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child.
05:26
JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia?
05:33
MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about.
06:06
JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia?
06:10
MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no.
06:59
JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school?
07:09
MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian.
07:41
JK: Can you read and write Armenian?
07:43
MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it.
07:51
JK: [inaudible]
07:51
MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by.
08:03
JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up?
08:08
MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up.
08:11
JK: And what is her name? And how old is she?
08:15
MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age.
08:24
JK: What's the age difference between you two?
08:31
MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months.
08:37
JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶
08:40
MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶
08:53
JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up?
09:00
MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York.
09:39
JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia?
09:46
MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that.
10:00
JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today?
10:05
MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia,
10:33
JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid?
10:38
MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes.
10:44
JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller?
10:54
MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away,
11:26
JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian?
11:36
MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know.
11:43
JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything?
11:48
MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were.
11:59
JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no?
12:08
MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it.
12:14
JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church?
12:19
MK: Mostly at church.
12:28
JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church?
12:42
MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents.
13:11
JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶
13:15
MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out.
13:32
JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area?
13:38
MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times.
14:21
JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶
14:37
MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children.
15:41
JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian?
15:45
MK: Yes.
15:46
JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you?
15:50
MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture.
16:15
JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey?
16:18
MK: No.
16:19
JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia?
16:23
MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure.
16:41
JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia?
16:51
MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it.
17:14
JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶
17:21
MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶
17:33
JK: Do you attend church regularly today?
17:36
MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services.
17:57
JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian?
18:04
MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in.
19:22
JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think?
19:31
MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives.
20:31
JK: Is there anything else you want to add?
20:37
MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay.
20:43
JK: Thank you.
20:45
MK: You are welcome. Have a good day.
(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture.
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Interview with Mark Kachadourian
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
12/1/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
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Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information
Biographical Text
Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children.<br /><br /><br />Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.
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<strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Marion and George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Jacqueline Kachadourian<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 1 December 2017<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />(Start of Interview)<br /> <br /><strong>00:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶ December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record? <br /> <br /><strong>00:19 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George. <br /> <br /><strong>00:24 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian. <br /> <br /><strong>00:28 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And where were you both born? <br /> <br /><strong>00:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.<br /> <br /><strong>00:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And who are your parents and where were they born? <br /> <br /><strong>00:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: <em>Erciyes Dağı]</em> and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them? <br /> <br /><strong>01:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶ or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here? <br /> <br /><strong>01:47 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course, yes. <br /> <br /><strong>01:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶ food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further? <br /> <br /><strong>04:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶ you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave? <br /> <br /><strong>04:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh when she, when she went through this? <br /> <br /><strong>05:01 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, do you ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>05:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story. <br /> <br /><strong>06:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But it is all the same really. <br /> <br /><strong>07:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks. <br /> <br /><strong>07:22 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>Well many towns did, but they were ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>07:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know. <br /> <br /><strong>07:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And your father was one of them. <br /> <br /><strong>08:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶ he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here. <br /> <br /><strong>09:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?<br /> <br /><strong>09:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?<br /> <br /><strong>09:45 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Do you want me to tell? <br /> <br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yes. <br /> <br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> As we go along, or just wait until ̶<br /> <br /><strong>09:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Do you want to go? <br /> <br /><strong>09:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, I mean, I, I can ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>09:52 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I can go on and ̶ [laughs] <br /> <br /><strong>09:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶ at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶ she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶ he was ̶ he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶ my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶ similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶ and she went through Syria and different. <br /> <br /><strong>12:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert. <br /> <br /><strong>12:16 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah and she ended up in ̶ and my father too ̶ They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶ I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶ beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>13:08 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah my father was seventeen. <br /> <br /><strong>13:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶ my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶ was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶ You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶ my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶ However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶ he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.<br /> <br /><strong>16:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶ he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶ and your father probably had a similar experience ̶ coming through Ellis ̶ have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.<br /> <br /><strong>17:25 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶ right and see the Statue of Liberty.<br /> <br /><strong>17:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> It is well ̶ they have a museum ̶ exhibit it is very nice now.<br /> <br /><strong>17:34 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> At the other side of the island.<br /> <br /><strong>17:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶ could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>18:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶ the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶ had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?<br /> <br /><strong>18:55</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The political scene you mean.<br /> <br /><strong>18:57 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, and ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>18:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶ he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.<br /> <br /><strong>19:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶ politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶ the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶ my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶ the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> The promise?<br /> <br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>The promise?<br /> <br /><strong>20:55 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶ they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶ The church was very ̶ The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>21:39 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.<br /> <br /><strong>21:42 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>22:06 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.<br /> <br /><strong>22:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.<br /> <br /><strong>22:19 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?<br /> <br /><strong>22:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They never really, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>22:47 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.<br /> <br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah, of course.<br /> <br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶ an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.<br /> <br /><strong>23:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>23:43 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.<br /> <br /><strong>23:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Your father spoke some Arabic.<br /> <br /><strong>23:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.<br /> <br /><strong>23:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Now my father's family ̶ because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶ they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶ my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶ it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>26:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And you mixed Armenian words with English words.<br /> <br /><strong>26:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶ know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.<br /> <br /><strong>26:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>26:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶ it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶ there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶ once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`<br /> <br /><strong>28:15 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right.<br /> <br /><strong>28:16</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>28:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.<br /> <br /><strong>29:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶ for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.<br /> <br /><strong>30:44 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶ were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?<br /> <br /><strong>30:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>31:56 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>33:05 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>33:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And that was true of our ̶ my parents as well.<br /> <br /><strong>33:45 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.<br /> <br /><strong>34:14 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>34:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶ went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.<br /> <br /><strong>35:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.<br /> <br /><strong>35:49 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>35:54 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The fact that they were not living persecution every day.<br /> <br /><strong>36:57 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> That is right, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>36:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know.<br /> <br /><strong>37:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They always were very grateful to be here.<br /> <br /><strong>37:04 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.<br /> <br /><strong>37:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We have but you know, we were only ̶ our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.<br /> <br /><strong>37:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶ an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.<br /> <br /><strong>38:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?<br /> <br /><strong>38:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well George did not have that advantage ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>38:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.<br /> <br /><strong>38:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.<br /> <br /><strong>39:39 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>39:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our ̶ my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶ you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.<br /> <br /><strong>40:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.<br /> <br /><strong>40:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶ oh he is just great I mean he is ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>41:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Seventeen now.<br /> <br /><strong>41:18 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.<br /> <br /><strong>41:38 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> University.<br /> <br /><strong>41:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>41:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.<br /> <br /><strong>41:58</strong><br />Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶ what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>42:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well it was natural.<br /> <br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Natural.<br /> <br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> It was always very natural. You know, I mean.<br /> <br /><strong>42:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.<br /> <br /><strong>42:23 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.<br /> <br /><strong>42:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶<br /> <br /><strong>42:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>42:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not it was it was expected and ̶<br /> <br /> <br /><strong>42:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.<br /> <br /><strong>43:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?<br /> <br /><strong>44:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶ before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:26 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:35 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Dental school.<br /> <br /><strong>44:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.<br /> <br /><strong>44:39</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right. <br /> <br /><strong>44:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶ I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.” <br /> <br /><strong>46:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was seventeen. <br /> <br /><strong>46:29 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to get to know her better.<br /> <br /><strong>46:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶<br /> <br /><strong>46:59</strong><br />Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.<br /> <br /><strong>47:03</strong><br />Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>47:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.<br /> <br /><strong>47:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness.<br /> <br /><strong>47:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.<br /> <br /><strong>47:58 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents. <br /> <br /><strong>48:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶<br /> <br /><strong>48:16 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married. <br /> <br /><strong>48:21 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.<br /> <br /><strong>48:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.<br /> <br /><strong>48:34 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yeah ̶ and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?<br /> <br /><strong>48:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the cul ̶ well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.<br /> <br /><strong>49:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And family, and family.<br /> <br /><strong>49:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶ where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.<br /> <br /><strong>49:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶<br /> <br /><strong>50:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?<br /> <br /><strong>50:21 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?<br /> <br /><strong>50:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Now? You mean now? <br /> <br /><strong>50:33 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.<br /> <br /><strong>50:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶<br /> <br /><strong>51:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.<br /> <br /><strong>51:06 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well not ̶ they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But maybe it is not as intense as it was.<br /> <br /><strong>52:27 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?<br /> <br /><strong>52:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well we went to Istanbul first ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where yeah where ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶<br /> <br /><strong>53:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where they all ̶ many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>53:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.<br /> <br /><strong>54:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We would never do it today but we did it then.<br /> <br /><strong>54:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶ how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.<br /> <br /><strong>54:37 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness that is amazing wow. <br /> <br /><strong>54:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.<br /> <br /><strong>54:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>55:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Speak Western ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>55:08 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.<br /> <br /><strong>55:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶ It has its own language.<br /> <br /><strong>55:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The old language, the old ̶<br /> <br /><strong>55:28 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Which even we do not understand.<br /> <br /><strong>55:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶<br /> <br /><strong>55:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Excuse me.<br /> <br /><strong>55:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?<br /> <br /><strong>55:47 </strong><br /><strong>MR & GR:</strong> American-Armenian.<br /> <br /><strong>55:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>56:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.<br /> <br /><strong>56:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶<br /> <br /><strong>56:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.<br /> <br /><strong>56:26 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah, that is for sure.<br /> <br /><strong>56:29 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, they are the best.<br /> <br /><strong>56:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they are all proud of their heritage.<br /> <br /><strong>56:33 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we are.<br /> <br /><strong>56:36 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?<br /> <br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> What is that Marion?<br /> <br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.<br /> <br /><strong>56:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.<br /> <br /><strong>57:42 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes.<br /> <br /><strong>57:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶<br /> <br /><strong>57:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and,<br />and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.<br /> <br /><strong>58:09 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much. <br /> <br /><strong>58:12</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You are very welcome.<br /> <br />(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation
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Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian