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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3bd2f7c57b24ea5309177bc98a90255.pdf
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PDF Text
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BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I Z N
STATE U N I V E R S I T Y O
F N E W Y O R K
d e c
[4
D E P A R T M E N T
“ IT ALI AN NIG HT “
CLASS RECITAL ( Maria L. Cook Ins tructor )
Monda y, Dece mber 1 3 a t 8 pm
Casade sus H a ll , BU Fine A rts Bui lding
Free ad missio n , recep tion to follow
�Christina Kompar has performed with Eastern Festival
Opera,Bronx Opera, Dell’arte Ensamble , and troupers
Light Opera Company. Former president and music
director of NYU Chamber Singers,Kompar directed the
Children’s Choir for the Eastern Festival Opera’s
production of La Boheme, where she held the position
I. ARIE from OPERA
1.I! valzer di Musetta
Soprano: Christina Kompar
“ Quando men vo......
»
from La Boheme of G. Puccini.
Cities Opera’s Resident Artist Program.
2.Aria del Duca
Questa e quella per me pari sono..... Tenore: Brister Hay
from Rigoletto of G. Verdi (18131901)
3.Aria di Nemorino
of Assistant Chorus Master. Ms. Kompar earnd her
Bachelor’s of Music Education at New York University,
and is currently pursuing a Master’s in Opera at
Binghamton University in conjunction with the Tri
Tenore: Richard Leonberger
from L’Elisir d’Amore o f G. Donizzetti (17971 848)
Brister Hay MM Opera, Bingamton
University,BM/Opera, SUNY Purchase Colloge.
Apperances: king Kaspar, Bingamton University,Amal
and the Night Visitor. Purchase Opera: Tamino in Die
Zauberflote; Gherardo in Gianni Schicchi, Ferrando in
Cosi‘ Fan Tutte. Awards: Clark Felloship, Binghamton
University.
3.L’Alba separa dalla luce l’ombra. Tenore: Brister Hay
Zachary Israel Nobile Kampler, Artistic Director and
Conductor of The Eastern Festival Symphony Orchestra.
A graduate of the Julliard PreColloge program,he has
performed in Alice Tully Hall and Julliard Hall.In addition
to studying with Maestro Vincent La Selva of the New
York Grand OperaCompany, Kampler completed three
III. Canzoni della nonna ( Grandma’s songs)
terms at the Conductors Institute at Bard College,
II. Romanze of Francesco Tosti (18461916)
1. Sogno
Soprano: Christina Kompar
2.ldeale
Tenore: Richard Leonberger
1. Fa la nanna bambin .
lstrian lullaby
Soprano : Christina Kompar.
2. Musica proibita
Tenori : Brister Hay
Of S. Gastaldon
Richard Leonberger
3. Santa Lucia (neapolitan boat song)
where he worked with Maestro Harold Faberman. In
2004, Kampler became the assistant conductor to
Maestro Salvatore Princinotti at the Stamford Yong
Artist Philharmonic and toured Italy with the orchestra
in 2006.Kampler has conducted for TAB
Production(2007), Crystal Opera(2008), and Nickel City
Opera where he has been Music Director since
2009.Kampler holds a B.A. in music from N.Y.U. and
currently pursuing a Master in Orchestral Conducting at
S.U.N.Y. Binghamton,under the tutelage of Maestro
Timothy Perry.
�Bin gha mton Un ive rsit y Mu sic Department’s
U P C O M I N G E V E N T S
F
I
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
É
–
Monday, December 13 — “Italian Night” Clas s Re cital (Maria Co
ok,
Instr uctor) — 8:00 p.m. — Casa desus Re cital Hall — free
Frida y, January 28 — Master Clas s with Pa ul Houghtaling from
Univ ersity
of Alabama — 9 :40 a.m. to 11:50 a .m. — C asadesus Recital H
all — free
Sun day, Jan uary 30 — U nive rsity Cha mbe r Ch orus — 3 p.m
. — Trinity
Memorial
Church, Binghamton — free
Friday, February 4 — Early On (Peter Browne, ke yboards, Barb
Kaufman, recorder, Chr istin a Sa lasny, so prano, Stephen Sta ara
Paul Sweeny, guitar) — 8 p.m. — C asadesus Recital Hall — $ lker, cello,
10 general
public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
Thursday, February 17 — Orga nist Jona than Biggers — A Ba
ch
Cele brat ion!! Series — 8 p.m. — F A21 – $10 general publ
ic; $5
faculty/staff/seniors ; $2 students
Frid ay, February 18 — Orga nist Jona than Biggers — A Ba ch C
Series (1 1/17 repe at perform ance) — 4 p.m. — F A21 — $10 elebration!!
general public ;
$5 fa culty /staff/seniors ; $2 students
Saturday, February 19 — Mas ter’s Rec ital : Cab iria J acob sen,
mez zo
soprano — 3 p.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — free
Thursday, February 24 — MidDay Con cert — 1:20 p.m. — Casa
desus
Recital Hall — free
Saturday, February 26 — Univ ersity Symphony Orchestra : Viv
— 3 p.m. — Osterhout Concert Thea ter — $10 general public ; $5 e Ia Fran ce
faculty/staff/seniors ; free for students
Sunday, February 27 —W ind S ymp hony Con certo and Aria
Com petit ion
— 6:30 p.m. — Casadesus Recital Hall — free
For ticket information, please call the
And erso n Ce nter B o x O ffice at 7 77A RTS .
To see all events, please visit music.binghamton.edu
Become a fan on Facebook by visiting
Bing ham ton Uni vers ity Mus ic Dep artm ent
�
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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1 audio disc
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27:18:00
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE148235">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE148235</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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Italian Night Concert, December 13, 2010
Recital Tape 2010-12-13
Description
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Works by Musetta, Puccini, Verdi, Donizetti, Tosti, Gastaldon
Creator
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Kompar, Christina
Hay, Brister
Leonberger, Richard
Cook, Maria
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-12-13
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In copyright
Type
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df753b4355ebba091101334dc2e87f3b.jpg
9664591256b5b84bc9dbdc710b93549a
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7ca9b9911672660423c33be25a7c556.mp3
c85b3890001ae58728c074c90e81f46c
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rick Synchef
Date of Interview
2010-12-15
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
153:58
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Black Panther; Angela Davis; Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Earth Day; Activism; Vietnam War; Free speech movement; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Black Panther; Angela Davis; Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Earth Day; Activism; Vietnam War; Free speech movement; Activism.</span>
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6535,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,1184274],"15":"Arial"}">Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s.</span>
Subject LCSH
Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rick Synchef
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 15 December 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:02):
Testing one, two. Okay. The first question I have been asking at least the last 50 people that I have been interviewing is, Rick, can you describe your growing up years, your high school years, where you grew up, maybe some experiences you had at that school prior to going off to the University of Wisconsin to college, and also if you had any early role models before you went off to college. Either parents or people in the news or people that you read about in books.
RS (00:00:42):
I had a fairly normal childhood growing up in the suburbs of Chicago. I want to go off the record. I do not know how much of this you want. I may say more than is necessary, so you may-
SM (00:00:55):
Go right ahead.
RS (00:00:56):
Okay. President of my class in eighth grade, politically interested, writing letters to the editor in high school for our local newspaper. I have to go off for a second. If I make grammatical mistakes, will I be able to correct them at-
SM (00:01:12):
Oh yeah. You will be able to correct them because you will see the transcript.
RS (00:01:17):
Because I would rather just speak and if I say something, I do not want to have to worry about my grammar so much when I speak with you.
SM (00:01:22):
That is okay.
RS (00:01:23):
Okay.
SM (00:01:24):
Yep.
RS (00:01:24):
All right. Always interested in politics. Followed politics. Senior year in high school, actually just graduating after senior year in high school. It was 1968. Since I just graduated, I was not allowed by my parents to go down to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in August at night. I went with a couple of friends the following day to the Grant Park area. We walked into the Conrad Hilton Hotel, and this tear gas smell was just terrible. Started tearing up right away in the lobby of the hotel. But go back a bit. I was very normal, very athletic, a jock in high school, but was interested in going to a good university and furthering my education, and at that point, I was already fairly sure I was going to become an attorney but did not know. We went to visit a number of colleges and one of them was the University of Wisconsin in Madison. I had already been to some fairly conservative schools like Miami of Ohio, University of Illinois. Then when I got to Madison, we had walked out of the administration building after meeting with a counselor, or somebody regarding college admissions, and they were doing construction across the street and there was plywood everywhere and on one big sheet of plywood, written in spray paint, "LBJ sucks." I had a feeling that is where I wanted to go. Looked and sounded like fun. People on roller skates, dogs with bandanas. That was for me.
SM (00:03:30):
Yeah. Yeah, that was (19)68 and that summer... That was an unbelievable year. Now, I know I have some questions later on here and I am going to ask you about that year and your years in college, but going to... You went down there. What did you think of that whole experience, that Democratic convention with the police and against the young people, and they were all students, but there were a lot of young people there, and of course, there was chaos even inside the Democratic Convention itself?
RS (00:04:04):
A complete overreaction to what I viewed as non-violent political participation in the democratic process. Of course, being born in Chicago and having a family or relatives in Chicago since the 18(19)70s, I was fairly familiar with the Chicago police, but not firsthand. Never had a problem. Parenthetically, I grew up in a suburb 25 miles north of Chicago and only saw "the good parts of Chicago" when I came into the city. But I was shocked seeing people being beaten with clubs, tear gas, National Guard, Army... I do not know the exact terminology, but there was an Army personnel carrier with tripod-mounted machine guns and barbed wire around them. Chicago was transformed into an armed camp. It was quite an eye-opener at 18 years old.
SM (00:05:17):
And you were not allowed to be there at night, but you were there during the day.
RS (00:05:22):
Two friends and I went down there after the event in Grant Park that night, and on Michigan Avenue then, the prior evening. The smell of tear gas was just really awful. It was new to me. First time. Really awful.
SM (00:05:47):
I bet you when you first heard the rock group, Chicago, they had that first album and it was a prologue. The whole world is watching. The whole world is watching. Did you hear any of that?
RS (00:06:02):
I did. Actually, the name on their first album was Chicago Transferred Authority. For obvious reasons, they changed it. They shortened it to Chicago. I did. I knew I was interested in politics before then, but I became even more interested and I ended up majoring in political science.
SM (00:06:25):
Well, as a young person at 18... I know this. I got this question later, but that was the year before you graduated from high school when Martin Luther King was killed in April, and Bobby Kennedy was killed in Los Angeles in June, and this is before your high school graduation, and then you got the Chicago Convention in August.
RS (00:06:47):
Stunning. Absolutely stunning to see people who I looked up to and admired, assassinated. I did not really know what to make of it at that time, being 18 years old, but I knew something was terribly wrong.
SM (00:07:04):
When you went to your high school graduation, that must have been around the third week of June, or somewhere around there?
RS (00:07:10):
A bit earlier, but yes.
SM (00:07:12):
Yeah. Was what was the theme of your high school graduation? Was there talk of what was happening in America in (19)68? The main speaker of the student speakers losing those two great leaders, but the nation seemed torn apart. What was your high school graduation like in terms of what people were saying?
RS (00:07:33):
It appeared that what was going on in the larger world was irrelevant. It was a very standard high school graduation, held at a very nice facility called Virginia Park in Highland Park, Illinois, and it was as if those events had not happened.
SM (00:07:54):
Wow. What was it like? And I am getting to your college years at the University of Wisconsin. I got quite a few questions here. I had a friend that was in graduate school with me from the University of Wisconsin. He was a political science major and he was a PhD candidate, and his name was Alex Sapkowski. Does that name ever ring a bell to you?
RS (00:08:14):
It does not.
SM (00:08:15):
Now, he came from Wisconsin, and he was there at Ohio State in (19)71, but what was it like to be a college student at the University of Wisconsin from (19)68 to (19)72? Just your overall feeling when you look at that four years, what was it like because people reading this are going to be high school and college students that were not alive then.
RS (00:08:39):
Initially, I was a "straight person", meaning I went to see a Janice Joplin concert in 1969 wearing a coat and tie. I thought that is what you did when you went to a concert. Dressed nicely for class and took my studies very seriously.
SM (00:09:03):
Right. Yeah. During those four years, what kinds of protests did you see and what were the issues that they were protesting?
RS (00:09:14):
There were a number of issues. Everything from civil rights to the war, of course, and maybe I should say the Vietnam War for young people. The Vietnam War. The environmental movement was just starting. The first birthday was held in April 1970, and the University of Wisconsin was prominently involved in the Senator Gaylord Nelson was the, I believe, first person who proposed having an birthday.
SM (00:09:46):
Yeah. And I interviewed him for my book.
RS (00:09:49):
I saw that.
SM (00:09:51):
Yeah.
RS (00:09:51):
I saw that. So there was a lot of what you could call a consciousness-raising in so many different areas from migrant workers to civil rights to, of course, the war and the... To borrow one expression, the military industrial complex, but medicine was a very progressive, politically aware, and politically savvy place.
SM (00:10:29):
Obviously, were they... Were a lot of the students against ROTC on campus too? Blocking military recruiters. Was that...
RS (00:10:38):
In fact, freshman year in college, ROTC orientation was compulsory as a class-
SM (00:10:46):
Oh my gosh.
RS (00:10:48):
... For incoming freshman. And that was changed; I believe a year or two after I became a student. Near the ROTC building... I do not know if you want to print this, it was regularly burned down during the spring. It was an annual riot.
SM (00:11:08):
Oh, you mean... Oh, they burned it down there too?
RS (00:11:13):
Yes.
SM (00:11:14):
Well, how many times was it burned down?
RS (00:11:16):
I believe at least once annually.
SM (00:11:19):
Oh my goodness. Kent State was only that one time. Wow. That was crazy. And of course, did they have to call in the National Guard at your campus?
RS (00:11:32):
National Guard was on campus regularly. Bayonets, tear gas... There was a Black student strike in the winter of 1969, and that was really the first large demonstration that I saw on campus. And subsequent to that, there were of course, many, many demonstrations primarily having to do with Vietnam War.
SM (00:12:08):
At that time, at the University of Wisconsin, what was the relationship between the students? Now, I am not sure, again, what percentage of your students were involved in anti-war activity or activism, but what was the relationship between a lot of the students and the administration and the faculty?
RS (00:12:33):
The relationship between the students and the administration was adversarial. They viewed students as a... This might be too strong. I do not want to... I was going to say necessary evil. I do not want to say. Something necessary, but I believe the [inaudible] were doing students a favor to let them attend the university, and that they were not sufficiently grateful for their opportunity. Politically, the faculty was by and large, very progressive, and there were a number of excellent professors who taught... Give me a... Who used materials such as by Howard Zen and other liberal political scientists. There were George Moscone and Harvey Goldberg come to mind as two professors who were teaching political science in a... I mean, I am searching for a word. I do not want to say alternative way, but using-using materials that were not customary.
SM (00:13:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Were the faculty more kind of partners with the students as opposed to... Were faculty mostly against the administration too?
RS (00:14:10):
I suppose it would depend on the department.
SM (00:14:14):
Right.
RS (00:14:16):
I do not want to make generalizations. This was a long time ago.
SM (00:14:21):
Right.
RS (00:14:21):
But I believe in the hard sciences, they were more conservative rather than in the liberal arts areas, they were, I believe, much more progressive.
SM (00:14:34):
Yeah, I know that it is hard to generalize, even when you talk about 74 million boomers. You can only... Depending on who you talk to, only about 5 percent to 10 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism during that area in the entire nation.
RS (00:14:52):
Well, I assure you, at the University of Wisconsin, it were much more demonstrations. Brought out on occasion 10,000, 20,000 people.
SM (00:15:00):
Wow.
RS (00:15:01):
And just very, very [inaudible].
SM (00:15:09):
So, the relationship between... How was the relationship between students and the community of Madison and the Police Department of Madison during those four years?
RS (00:15:19):
Well, I believe it was a... I am hearing feedback.
SM (00:15:27):
I do not. I am fine on my end. Are you having feedback?
RS (00:15:34):
I am. It just started too.
SM (00:15:37):
Okay. Are you okay now or...
RS (00:15:40):
Let me see if I hear it. That is better.
SM (00:15:42):
Okay.
RS (00:15:42):
That is better. Could you restate the question?
SM (00:15:47):
Yeah. Well, the question was the relationship between the students and the community of Madison, the citizens of Madison, and-
RS (00:15:54):
I believe it was more like a traditional town versus gown atmosphere. Police, of course, being blue collar and from, by and large, parts of the city of Madison, which were not located near the campus, really disliked many of the students intensely. They viewed them as spoiled and... Let me think. Overprivileged people who were fortunate even to be there, and that they were in some ways desecrating a place where many of them had grown up. I can refer you to a movie called The War At Home, which is excellent.
SM (00:16:45):
I have it.
RS (00:16:46):
You have it?
SM (00:16:46):
Yes.
RS (00:16:46):
Okay.
SM (00:16:49):
Yeah. This is something too important, because I noticed this on my campus, but I wanted to hear from you. There seemed.... What was the relationship in the late (19)60s and early seventies between White students and African American students? There seemed to be a split.
RS (00:17:07):
In Madison, I think by... Or I should not say Madison. I said at the university, by and large, I think it was very good.
SM (00:17:14):
Because at around (19)69, (19)70, you noticed at Kent State, there were no students of color at that protest. They were told to basically not be seen by the African-American leaders of the campus, and actually the student government president was African-American, but what happened is during the Black Power there was a split where most of the white students continued protesting the Vietnam War and African American students started fighting for rights for African Americans, and so there was a split. Did you see that on your campus?
RS (00:17:52):
I really did not. I would say that they were not mutually exclusive, that many of the activities involved both. There was a large overlap.
SM (00:18:04):
Yeah. It got so bad at Ohio State University that in (19)71 and (19)72, in the Ohio Union, African American students had their own separate dances and White students had their dances in another part of the building, so there was some tension there.
RS (00:18:22):
I cannot recall something like that happening. I am not saying that it did not. But I vividly recall events such as what happened on the night of the massacre at Kent State with police charging groups of students, police helicopters hovering overhead, massive amount of tear gas. They used so much tear gas on the campus that they eventually ran out and switched to pepper gas, which hurt you more.
SM (00:18:53):
Oh my, God. Did you guys have graduation that year, or did they close the school?
RS (00:18:58):
No, everything happened, but the classes after Kent State were... I should not say the word canceled. Were switched to using a pass/fail system for the semester. But the police would throw tear gas everywhere students congregated, whether it was in the student union, the library... I should not say the library. Let me strike that. I cannot promise that. In the student union, fraternity houses, places of worship, anywhere that students congregated to get away from them. No place was safe.
SM (00:19:37):
Who were some of the speakers that you saw that came to your campus during the year (19)68 to (19)72? I do not know if you went to see these speakers. Could be national leaders or activists; did you go to see speakers?
RS (00:19:58):
I have to tell you. In all honesty, I do not remember. I am sure I did, but I cannot recall specific people. I just know that many of them came to campus, including people during Chicago Southern Conspiracy trial. But yes, many, many people came to campus. I believe Todd Gitlin, who had former president of SDS, Tom Hayden, I believe Paul Krassner came. Many, many people came to the campus, but frankly, I was not as interested in the leaders as I was learning about the issues.
SM (00:20:39):
Very good. What was the relationship between the protestors on campus at Wisconsin and members of fraternities and sororities and some of the student athletes and the ROTC students?
RS (00:20:56):
Initially, it seemed like an adversarial relationship, but what the police actions and the administration's conduct resulted in was radicalizing formerly conservative people like fraternity members. When the police come in and throw tear gas in your fraternity, you suddenly do not like them quite much.
SM (00:21:19):
Oh my, God. Yeah.
RS (00:21:22):
So, they had a reverse effect from what they intended in that they caused people to question authority and say that things did not work as they had assumed that they were.
SM (00:21:42):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting because that is what the free speech movement was all about. A lot of the people in Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, did not agree with the new left and their politics, but when they were not allowed to hand out literature, that was an attack on all students and they all kind of united.
RS (00:22:04):
I think this was a longstanding policy by the University of California to keep the campus "pure".
SM (00:22:11):
Yes.
RS (00:22:12):
And refrain from any political activity on campus, which included the setting up of card tables with literature on them, which resulted in the free speech movement in the fall of (19)64.
SM (00:22:32):
And it is interesting too, that what was going on in American in the fifties, were there fear of communists and that kind of led to some of the mentality of college administrations and so forth. Did you see the evolution of other movements on your campus at that time? Because you were on a university campus in (19)68 to (19)72 when just about all the movements came to fruition, particularly in the early seventies, because that is when the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, and even the Black Power and a lot of the Black Panthers, kind of all evolved around that timeframe as kind of an offshoot of the anti-war movement and civil rights movements. Did you see those evolving on your campus?
RS (00:23:19):
I knew they were present, including the environmental movement that I previously mentioned, but the primary issue for me was the Vietnam War, and for many, I believe. People my age were being sent over there to die for what many of us thought was no logical reason until they already left. I believe that the goals were not really clear enough to make the... Let me rephrase that. I believe that young people did not see that the end justified the means.
SM (00:24:08):
And what were some of your classes like? Did you have professors that said, "Today, I am not going to teach my class. We are going to talk about what is going on in the world?" There seemed to be some of that. Did you have that in any of your classes?
RS (00:24:21):
Yes, I did. It was easy to do when you smelled tear gas [inaudible] through the windows of the classroom.
SM (00:24:27):
Yeah. What were some of those conversations? You are sitting in a room with all your fellow students. What were some of the thoughts that were going through some of those young people's minds?
RS (00:24:40):
Well, I think most of the people were as naive as I was when we started. It was quite an eye-opener. Of course, there were a few students from Europe that did not see this as anything unusual who thought socialism was... God, let me rephrase. That is awful. I am making generalizations. But we discussed socialism and other more leftist ideas as if they were completely normal and nothing to be afraid of. But again, for myself and for many people being suburbanized. This was quite an eye-opener.
SM (00:25:23):
Oh, yeah. So in the... And were there any teach-ins at your school?
RS (00:25:30):
I remember one for the environment. I remember for the Vietnam War. I also remember reading lists of people who had died that week. The area around the university library became probably the main meeting area for student demonstrations. And at times there were many thousands of people there.
SM (00:26:01):
Now, these demonstrations, were they approved or did they just kind of happened?
RS (00:26:07):
They were spontaneous in many times, and often people would hand out pieces of paper saying, "Meeting 8:00 PM, library mall," or something like that, to make it an event that was passed. Information was passed on from person to person without a great deal of publicity, presumably to keep it [inaudible] from the authorities.
SM (00:26:36):
So a lot of times when it happened, the police were at the sides then watching the students.
RS (00:26:42):
Well, I do not know for sure, but I have a feeling that the police were in with the students as well.
SM (00:26:48):
You are probably right because infiltration was very big in those days, particularly in groups like SDS. We all know about the book that came out in the 19(19)80s called Rads.
RS (00:27:05):
Yes.
SM (00:27:05):
Which is where the lab was blown up at the University of Wisconsin and one student died.
RS (00:27:10):
[inaudible].
SM (00:27:13):
Yeah. I do not... Could you give a little more information on the... I think that happened when you were there.
RS (00:27:19):
Well, actually it happened while I was a student, but it happened during the summer and I was not on campus when it happened.
SM (00:27:28):
Well, what was it all... Could you tell a little bit more about it? Because people have not read the book of Rads or... What was it? Who did it? Did anybody pay the price for the bombing of it? And who was the young man who died and what was the reaction of the campus, particularly when school started in the fall?
RS (00:27:47):
It happened at, I believe, 3:45 in the morning and was purposely designed so not to hurt anyone, and it was assumed that nobody would be in the Army Research Center at 3:45 in the morning. Four people were involved; three of which were punished, and one has never been caught.
SM (00:28:15):
Were they students?
RS (00:28:17):
I believe that... I should not answer that. I cannot answer that question. I believe to a [inaudible] for certain. I do not remember. But there were two brothers, Dwight and Carl Armstrong, and two other people named David Fine and Leo Bert. I believe Leo Burt has never been caught.
SM (00:28:40):
And the other three, did they serve time in jail or...
RS (00:28:45):
I know Carl Armstrong did. I believe his brother Dwight did, and I believe David Fine did as well, but I cannot be for sure about him.
SM (00:28:59):
Now. What was-
RS (00:29:00):
I know for certain Carl Armstrong.
SM (00:29:02):
What summer were-
RS (00:29:02):
Actually, let me interrupt you for one sec. They were actually from Madison, the brothers, which was quite a shock to the Madison community that some of their own could be involved in this. Many, many times activities were blamed on out-of-state agitators. Yet they were from the same town.
SM (00:29:31):
And they were students too then, correct? At Wisconsin? You are not sure.
RS (00:29:36):
I am not sure. They were older than me. I believe they may have been students before I got there.
SM (00:29:43):
When you came back in the fall, was that the number one topic of discussion?
RS (00:29:47):
It was. It was really stunning to see this huge building reduced... Well, damaged. I should not say reduced. Damaged substantially. And it was quite an eye-opener, again, for young people who had not seen anything like that before.
SM (00:30:10):
You went on to law school. Now, you mentioned early on in the interview that you kind of knew in high school you wanted to be a lawyer. Why?
RS (00:30:22):
I wanted to help people. Law is very complex. I thought I could get involved and make changes in society and in an individual's life in a meaningful way.
SM (00:30:42):
And so probably your undergraduate degree...
RS (00:30:47):
Political science.
SM (00:30:48):
Yeah. Political science was a good preparation for that.
RS (00:30:51):
It was. It was. Again, I got an excellent education at the University of Huntington.
SM (00:30:57):
That is a great school.
RS (00:31:02):
It was a fine school, and I also got a street education.
SM (00:31:08):
Did you join organizations?
RS (00:31:10):
Excuse me. Let me interrupt you for-
SM (00:31:11):
Yep.
RS (00:31:11):
For some of the students, parents gave them gas masks before they departed for campus for fall.
SM (00:31:19):
Oh my, God.
RS (00:31:19):
Do not believe that happens today. Parent giving their sons and daughters gas masks for the upcoming year at school.
SM (00:31:31):
I wonder how many parents said, "Do not get involved in any protests."
RS (00:31:36):
Well, not only do not get involved, but do not sign anything. Many of the parents will remember the Red Scare. Do not join any groups. Do not sign any petitions. Quite fearful of repercussions for political activity.
SM (00:31:54):
Wow. So your plan was to become a lawyer. What did you specialize in law?
RS (00:32:05):
I did what was called tort work involving personal injury worker's compensation, and occasional medical malpractice. But one thing I am very proud of is representing over 600 Vietnam veterans for free on the Agent Orange class action litigation.
SM (00:32:25):
Yeah. I am going to go... I have a question on that. I am going to go... That was later in my interview, but that is very important. I have got a question here regarding this. You represented vets linked to Agent Orange. How did that happen?
RS (00:32:40):
Can you be a little more specific?
SM (00:32:44):
Yeah. Did one vet come to you and say, "We need help for the 600," or...
RS (00:32:53):
That is exactly what happened. One vet came to my office and said he had been in Vietnam and had a terrible, terrible rash on his skin, and he did not know what it was from. I said... That is bad grammar. What had caused it? I started dealing with a nurse at the Veteran Administration Hospital on the west side of Chicago where they had been seeing a number of people for these unexplained problems. Her name was Maude DeVictor, and when she saw that I was involved and not interested in obtaining anything for my services, but trying to help, she started referring a few clients to me. And I was one of the first 50 people in the law... I should say, attorneys in the country involved.
SM (00:33:50):
Wow. It is a big issue. Still is.
RS (00:33:53):
Well, this resulted in me receiving a death threat and having my telephone tapped.
SM (00:34:00):
Really?
RS (00:34:01):
Yes.
SM (00:34:03):
That is after you were working very hard on behalf of the 600?
RS (00:34:07):
Yes. I mean, I worked in conjunction with attorneys both locally in Chicago and across the nation, meeting with epidemiologists and other experts in diseases regarding the cause. And one of the attorneys I worked with in Chicago was a very establishment lawyer, but he was so convinced that his phone was being tapped, that he was tape-recording all of his own conversations.
SM (00:34:40):
And you think you were being tapped?
RS (00:34:44):
I heard the clicks on my line repeatedly.
SM (00:34:49):
Who do you think was tapping you?
RS (00:34:52):
I do not want to speculate.
SM (00:34:54):
Okay. Who would be against helping veterans though? Unless it is the government. Anyways.
RS (00:35:02):
Well, the chemical company-
SM (00:35:03):
... Anyways.
RS (00:35:03):
Well, the chemical companies were making a great deal of money from this product.
SM (00:35:06):
Right.
RS (00:35:09):
The lawsuit included Dow Monsanto, Diamond Shamrock and a number of other chemical companies in addition to the US government.
SM (00:35:22):
What was the final result of the lawsuit?
RS (00:35:28):
In 1984, the class action case was settled. I would have to check, but I believe the settlement result was $180 million. I believe there were changes subsequently, but the time I was involved, the maximum they were paying was approximately $14,000 to the survivor of someone who had died as a result of the Agent Orange exposure due to cancer, leukemia or other problems. People with lesser problems got less.
SM (00:36:07):
So in the end it was more than just the 600. It was people all over-
RS (00:36:15):
We represented approximately a little over 600, but there were many, many thousands of claims.
SM (00:36:22):
And that is still an issue today.
RS (00:36:26):
I know it is. I know it is.
SM (00:36:26):
I am met a vet down on Veterans Day at The Wall who was having a hard time. He has got Agent Orange issues and having a hard time getting his medical coverage and so forth. For those young people who will be reading this and certainly students that were not alive during the Vietnam War, can you explain what Agent Orange is and what it did in Vietnam?
RS (00:36:54):
It is a chemical defoliant. The purpose of spraying Agent Orange was to kill all the vegetation, so that the enemy could not hide. It was sprayed in areas along the rivers, basically the forest to just kill everything, to prevent the North Vietnamese from having cover, and it caused horrible defects, birth defects, miscarriages, and apparently is one of the most toxic. Agent Orange was contaminated during its manufacture by a... I have to start again. I am not phrasing this right. The production of Agent Orange caused a byproduct called dioxin. Dioxin is one of the most toxic substances known to man. A miniscule amount can cause terrible problems and the subsequent discovery during the case, showed that the government had known about it since 1957, that it caused terrible problems.
SM (00:38:15):
And so these Vietnam vets were coming back after serving their nation, and they were having a hard time getting medical coverage for this issue.
RS (00:38:25):
Yes.
SM (00:38:26):
And it kept going year after year after year. I know politicians got involved in it. In fact, I just talked to Bob Edgar last week, the former congressman. He went back to Vietnam, I think it was about a month ago, and Agent Orange is still an issue in Vietnam because so many of the population was affected by it.
RS (00:38:48):
Well, also, in addition to spraying it, what would happen is it would accumulate in ponds, and people would drink water from these ponds in incredibly high concentrations of the chemical.
SM (00:39:02):
Yeah, it is terrible. What did that say about... Vietnam Vets obviously are not the anti-war protestors. Some came back, became veterans against the war, John Kerry and that group, Bobby Muller. But what did that say to those veterans who came back to America after serving their nation? What do you think the lesson that comes out of this?
RS (00:39:31):
Some of them that I represent, were very-very bitter. Basically, many of them considered themselves chemical cannon fodder. And that they were knowingly exposed to something that eventually caused many of them to die.
SM (00:39:56):
Wow. Yeah, that is a major issue, and that is certainly an issue that was known by anyone alive at that time. I do not know whether you were for or against the war or anything in between, Agent Orange was in the news constantly. When you were at Northwestern, you had mentioned something just on your email to me. You said when you went there to law school, you say it could not have been more different on that campus than it was at Madison. Explain the difference between Northwestern Law School and clinical science undergrad at Wisconsin?
RS (00:40:41):
I was barely familiar with Northwestern Law School because my father went to law school there. In fact, when I was a little kid, I was dressed up wearing a tee-shirt that said Northwestern Law when I was a toddler. I knew about the place. I got a very good legal education, very conservative corporate oriented school. The old saying when I was there was that, you go to the University of Chicago to become a judge... Excuse me, I should say law school, University of Chicago Law School to become a judge. And they go to the Northwestern Law School to become a corporation council. So again, I got a very good legal education, but politics were not relevant to learning the law and their view. In fact, my corporation's professor... I do not know if I should give his name because I do not want to-
SM (00:41:45):
No, you do not need to do that.
RS (00:41:47):
But said in a discussion of corporate law, morality and ethics were irrelevant.
SM (00:41:57):
Well, I think Berkeley students in (19)64, (19)65 realize that.
RS (00:42:07):
We were there to learn the law, and in that way, it was an old school Socratic method type of education. If you are familiar with the movie, The Paper Chase.
SM (00:42:18):
Yes, I am.
RS (00:42:21):
It was very much like that.
SM (00:42:23):
Wow. I forget the lawyer that was in that, the older actor. Oh, he was good.
RS (00:42:28):
Named...
SM (00:42:30):
I see him now.
RS (00:42:32):
John Houseman.
SM (00:42:33):
Yeah. What a great professor. And I think, was it Ryan O'Neill?
RS (00:42:36):
Timothy Bottoms.
SM (00:42:38):
Oh, that is right. Timothy Bottoms. You got it.
RS (00:42:41):
And it was based on a corporation... Let me see, corporation's law professor at Harvard.
SM (00:42:52):
Yeah. I had here because you were at such an activist university as an undergrad and you went to Northwestern. I am sure there probably was some activism there for the undergrads, but the question I was... Basically was three things here. Bear in mind as I mention these, was the difference when you made that statement because of the campus and the type of students that were there. Number two, the things were beginning to wind down, and the anti-war movement, particularly around that time of (19)72, (19)73, (19)74 and people were tired of the acrimony. And third, that law school, the people were career oriented. They wanted to get a good job, money and a career, and they were not into social issues anymore, because they were going for a career. Did all those play a part in the differences of the two campuses?
RS (00:43:47):
To say that they were career oriented would be an understatement. Many people went to the law school, and again, I cannot speak for everyone because I did not speak to everyone in my class. By and large, many students knew that once they graduated, after having done well in law school, they were looking for jobs at the large corporate oriented law firms in Chicago and elsewhere.
SM (00:44:24):
Were there-
RS (00:44:24):
Which paid very well.
SM (00:44:26):
Were there many lawyers that said, I am going to go back and work around a university to help students, and not make that much money?
RS (00:44:34):
Not that I recall.
SM (00:44:36):
I know that was a big thing at that time for law students. They can go back and represent college students. Did you sense that when you were at Northwestern, that things were winding down in the anti-war movement?
RS (00:44:52):
Well, they were. The war was winding down. We had missed the draft. Miss is the wrong word, had not been drafted and self-interest seemed like it was the rule of the day.
SM (00:45:15):
In those years, (19)75 to (19)81, you practiced law, that was in Chicago, correct?
RS (00:45:24):
Yes.
SM (00:45:24):
Now, this is a fulfillment question. Did you feel more fulfilled during those six years as a lawyer, or were you more fulfilled as a college student during your four years at the University of Wisconsin?
RS (00:45:38):
No, I would call college more a formative experience than a fulfilling experience. It was sort of like making a piece of sculpture where at first you have to put the body and the arms on, before you can make the fingernails look the way they are supposed to.
SM (00:45:56):
Right.
RS (00:46:00):
It was more formative. I was oriented toward being an attorney, but I was not quite sure what area of law I wanted to do. I just knew that it was a vehicle for helping people who did not know the law, understand it and wind their way through the system with as little trouble as possible.
SM (00:46:29):
Yeah. I put down here because I concentrate a little bit. We are going to get into memorabilia in a few minutes, but I think your college years are fascinating and that your career's fascinating, just from what you have given on your brief email.
RS (00:46:47):
Off the record, you were asking me to pull up memories that are 40 years old. My short-term memories is not what it used-used to be, but neither is the rest of me.
SM (00:46:55):
Yeah, but I can tell from the way you are responding though, that these memories are important to you.
RS (00:47:03):
They were exciting... I should not say. They were incredibly exciting, interesting, vibrant times.
SM (00:47:10):
Yes.
RS (00:47:11):
You woke up in the morning never knowing what that day would bring. There was an excitement and electricity in the air, that I just do not see happening anymore.
SM (00:47:23):
Yeah.
RS (00:47:23):
It was an incredible time to be alive.
SM (00:47:28):
Yeah. I can remember taking buses from school. Just getting on a Greyhound bus and if you were a young person, you had this... Not that you were arrogant, but you felt like what a world we were living in. It was just a feeling, there were some bad things happening in the world, but there seemed to be some sort of unity between the youth at that time.
RS (00:47:50):
Well, you are absolutely right. There were so many idealistic, risk taking young people, who believed that anything was possible.
SM (00:48:02):
Right.
RS (00:48:04):
They sought to transform society with emotional and physical commitment, and boundless, often playful energy. Our distrust of the establishment, also known as the Man, was prevalent. Also with varying degrees of success, young people tried to manifest their own divinity. Consciousness raising was taken seriously as a truth seeking path towards personal enlightenment and positive social change.
SM (00:48:38):
Did you read any of those books of that era when you were a college student? Some of the best books ever came out in that-
RS (00:48:47):
[inaudible] Carlos Castañeda?
SM (00:48:48):
Yeah.
RS (00:48:49):
Of course.
SM (00:48:51):
Yeah. Of course, I know that Saul Alinsky was a big person because I think he is out of Chicago.
RS (00:48:57):
He was-
SM (00:48:59):
Was it Rules for Radicals?
RS (00:49:01):
He was a community organizer. I actually have a signed copy, first edition of his book, Rules for Radicals.
SM (00:49:08):
Keep it, it is valuable and pass it on.
RS (00:49:12):
I intend to.
SM (00:49:13):
It is an unbelievable thing because I know Hillary Clinton was influenced by him when she was a student. And then of course the other books were... I do not know if you read The Greening of America by Charles Reich?
RS (00:49:28):
I have a copy, which I had signed by him about 10 years ago.
SM (00:49:33):
Wow. I am trying to interview him. In February he is coming back to teach a course at Yale Law School. He is kind of hibernated, he lives in San Francisco.
RS (00:49:40):
Yes.
SM (00:49:43):
But I do not even know how to get ahold of-
RS (00:49:43):
He lives in Mill Valley. I am not certain. He may have... I should not say that. I do not know. He is in the Bay Area.
SM (00:49:51):
Yeah.
RS (00:49:52):
If I may, one of the most significant developments of the 1960, was really greatly increased involvement of young people in the political process. People got involved. They were passionate. If you have ever seen any video or film from the protests, people put their bodies on the line.
SM (00:50:21):
Right.
RS (00:50:22):
And many were beaten. They risked being tear gassed for what they believed. I do not really see that happening today. It is as if young... To me, and perhaps it is aging that says this, but there is not the passion. They are almost defeated before they begin, many of them. It seems like an end to, why fight the system we cannot win. Well, that is self-defeating. You will never know if you can win or not if you do not step the ring.
SM (00:50:57):
That is what Teddy Roosevelt said, " Got to get into the arena of life."
RS (00:51:06):
I did not know. Truly, I did not know, but many of them seem defeated and they have been... As George Carlin said, many of them been bought off by gizmo's and gadgets.
SM (00:51:18):
And of course George knew that those... What is it? The eight words he could not say or something like that...
RS (00:51:23):
Seven.
SM (00:51:25):
Seven. He said them anyways.
RS (00:51:28):
He did them at the Milwaukee Summerfest concert, I believe 1970, he was arrested for them.
SM (00:51:33):
Wow.
RS (00:51:34):
But it was a really exciting, electric time to be alive. There were so many changes taking place in society. If you want, I can give you a few obvious ones.
SM (00:51:49):
Yeah, go ahead.
RS (00:51:51):
I mean like a revolution in fashion, highlighted bright colors and tie-dyed clothes, long hair on men, replaced short cropped haircuts. New developments in graphic art, including the use of nonlinear writing and flowing colors, marked a pretty stark departure from the past. That was most evident in posters produced to promote rock events, but not exclusive. Television seemed like a fairly conservative medium and a skewed controversy. They started showing rock and roll performers and highlighting drama with frank and sometimes explicit adult themes. The sudden and prolific emergence of underground newspapers and comics.
SM (00:52:47):
Yes.
RS (00:52:47):
Disseminate liberal ideas and breakthroughs in art to an interested, sympathetic audience, that could be counted in millions. Again, this is long before email, cell phones, the widespread use of fax machines. I do not know if you want to write this, but I have many leaflets, these were vehicles of communication. People would hand out handbills.
SM (00:53:18):
Right.
RS (00:53:21):
And actually little notes, demonstration 8:00 PM, Library Mall, which I know I said, but this is how people communicated often. Underground newspapers and underground comics as well, you can include them. There has always been a bohemian or nonconformist or countercultural movement in America, which is parallel of mainstream society, consisting of free thinkers who were dissatisfied with conventional values, and people who sought emotional and spiritual satisfaction in ways other than the acquisition of wealth and power. And conformity, for do not sake, was seen as a compensation for a lack of ability, or I will say courage, for yourself.
SM (00:54:15):
Yeah. That is beautiful.
RS (00:54:19):
I mean, this is how I feel, and it was a rebellion against conformity, but it became more open as opposed to people in the (19)50s. The Beats who I admire very much, were really well mocked and I want to say pigeonholed. Could say the water overflowed the cup and it was impossible for the establishment to keep it inside.
SM (00:54:48):
Hold on a second. [inaudible].
RS (00:54:57):
A year or two ago, when he received a lifetime achievement award for his writing, was held in the [inaudible] public library.
SM (00:55:03):
Is that the same ceremony that Paul was involved in?
RS (00:55:06):
No, that was in Oakland. It was the Pen. P-E-N.
SM (00:55:10):
Okay.
RS (00:55:11):
Oakland.
SM (00:55:12):
Yep.
RS (00:55:17):
But I believe this might have been Pen San Francisco, but I would go to every reading I could have, and he has not done one in a long, long time.
SM (00:55:24):
Yeah. Someone said his health is not very good.
RS (00:55:28):
It is unfortunate to hear, because he was a really active guy. He would swim at the YMCA regularly, drive his bike when he was in his (19)70s, through traffic in San Francisco.
SM (00:55:40):
Yeah, I got some of his books. I got another question here. Are you finished with that information or...
RS (00:55:54):
But I am here for whatever you want to...
SM (00:55:56):
Yeah. This period, (19)68 to (19)72, you already talked about your senior year when you graduated. And you talked about the 1968 in Chicago and MLK, but some other major events that took place during those four years away from your college, was Woodstock in (19)69 and certainly... I got a list of them here. I will just list these and then you can comment on any of them as a whole. You had the Kent State, Jackson State of 1970. You had the big protest in Washington in 1969, known as the Moratorium. In 1969, you had the first openly major protest, Stonewall for gay and lesbian people in New York City. Then you had Altamont that some people say was really the end of the (19)60s, because you had Woodstock, then you had Altamont. Then you had Attica at the prisons. You had the American Indian Movement from (19)67 to (19)71, that began with Alcatraz and ended at Wounded Knee. You had the Black Panther trials, particularly the one in Yale or in New Haven. Earth Day in 1970. You had the Angela Davis situation with George Jackson over at San Quentin. [inaudible]. Then you had the SDS going to the Weathermen. Then you had Johnson withdrawing from the race in (19)68, and then you had Agnew-
RS (00:57:31):
That was quite a stunner. That was quite a stunner.
SM (00:57:32):
And then you had Agnew going all over these campuses, yelling about hobnobs and all the other things, attacking young people and-
RS (00:57:45):
[inaudible].
SM (00:57:45):
Yeah. And then of course Nixon was elected in (19)68 and (19)72, and then we had The Pentagon papers with Ellsberg, and then the evolution of Vietnam Veterans Against the War in (19)71. Then of course you had the hippies and the Yippies and so forth. All these things happened during that (19)68 to (19)72 period.
RS (00:58:02):
Yes.
SM (00:58:04):
You were obviously aware of all of them. Any of these stand out, that...
RS (00:58:10):
Well, again, being in Madison, Madison was isolated in the sense that it was not anywhere near another metropolitan area. The closest one was Milwaukee, which is approximately 90 miles away. And while being a wonderful place, we did not really interact much... How should we say? People came to campus, spoke or whatever, and left. It was not as if they were there permanently, as if you were in a large city like New York or Chicago. I was aware of what was going on through reading the newspaper, television and radio, but I did not go to any of those specific events you mentioned.
SM (00:59:01):
Were students... Did you see the-
RS (00:59:02):
These were rock festivals in the Madison area and Milwaukee.
SM (00:59:13):
Yeah. Did you see on the campus though, the evolution of the Black Panthers, from the nonviolent protest ala Dr. King, and then you saw the SDS, and then they went to become the Weatherman. What were your thoughts on those? This was a big transition.
RS (00:59:35):
It was. I had mixed emotions. On the one hand, I felt frustrated that no matter what we did, did not seem to make any difference. But on the other hand, I felt that some of the other activities such as the bombings, could possibly be counterproductive and not change the minds of the people whose minds we wanted to change.
SM (01:00:02):
The contrast, again, when you see Altamont, then you compare it to Woodstock. What seemed to be (19)69, and then Altamont was (19)70, was the exact opposite. Then you had the-
RS (01:00:19):
There were too many factors involved with that to make a real comparison. Woodstock sort of happened.
SM (01:00:26):
Right.
RS (01:00:28):
And it is wonderful that it did. Altamont seemed like a convergence of just the bad things.
SM (01:00:37):
Yeah. It was tragic up there with the motorcycle gang that beat up that guy, and of course... [inaudible] and then some of the atrocities in Vietnam are coming out at this time, revealed to the American public and...
RS (01:00:54):
Quite stunning to a suburban kid.
SM (01:00:56):
Yeah. And then of course, the American Indian movie went from Alcatraz, which was a good thing, to Wounded Knee, which was bad.
RS (01:01:06):
Yeah.
SM (01:01:06):
So you have a lot of these interesting contrasts. I did not know if they affected the students there or not. To go over the books again, we mentioned the Greening of America with Charles Reich, but there was another one. There were several others too. There was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.
RS (01:01:28):
Yeah, I met him again about a year ago, this year actually. Very bright, interesting person. I believe his new book is The Making of the Elder Culture.
SM (01:01:39):
Yeah, I wanted to interview him, but he says he is retired and he has got a health issue.
RS (01:01:48):
He do not look the healthiest, but when he took the book reading, he was in Berkeley. He was very good.
SM (01:01:56):
Good. Yeah, and then the other ones were of course, Soul on Ice with Eldridge Cleaver and Harry Edwards Black Students. And you had The Other America by Michael Harrington and...
RS (01:02:08):
Yes.
SM (01:02:08):
And then there was the Erik Erikson's books on the psychology, I believe of the American youth at that time, and I know Kenneth Keniston also wrote a book, Youth and Radical. So, there is a lot of really good books out that I did not know if they were popular on college campuses.
RS (01:02:27):
They were. People like Abbie Hoffman's book Steal This Book. Gary Ruben's [inaudible] of course, The Realist by Paul Krassner, it was great. But a lot of the information we got was from underground newspapers. They seemed more willing to print what we thought was the truth.
SM (01:02:52):
What were the underground papers you liked?
RS (01:02:52):
There was one in Madison called Takeover, which was good. Chicago Seed was very good. I did not really see much of the Berkeley Barb being where I was, but I would heard of it.
SM (01:03:06):
Right.
RS (01:03:07):
And these which other I knew, was very significant. Occasionally I saw a copy.
SM (01:03:12):
Did you ever read Ramparts?
RS (01:03:13):
Sure.
SM (01:03:14):
Yeah.
RS (01:03:14):
Sure. Excellent investigative journalism at the time.
SM (01:03:21):
Yeah. Peter Richardson's got a whole book out on it right now.
RS (01:03:23):
He did a reading here. I want to go off the record with this but Warren Hinckle became an alcoholic. It was just not a [inaudible] at a bar and he was just... To use a cliche, a shell of his former self.
SM (01:03:40):
Yeah. I tried to get him to be interviewed and Peter told me the only way you can find him is in a bar.
RS (01:03:45):
Yes. I do not know, and I should not be saying this, and I ask you not to repeat it, but I think he and Paul Krassner must have had a falling out because he and Paul... And I cannot remember why exactly, but we walked into some place where Warren Hinckle was there and did not even say a hello to each other.
SM (01:04:03):
Well-
RS (01:04:04):
Unusual for people who shared many of the same values.
SM (01:04:08):
Yeah, it is not Paul. I think a lot of people realize he is a drunk. I am not going to say that, but I do not even know him.
RS (01:04:19):
Peter.
SM (01:04:20):
Peter said the only way he got the interview, and he was talking about it because Hinckle was brilliant. What a writer.
RS (01:04:28):
Yeah.
SM (01:04:28):
But he always had a problem with alcohol and-
RS (01:04:32):
Oh, I should add Rolling Stone to my group.
SM (01:04:34):
Yeah, he probably will die an alcoholic.
RS (01:04:40):
I would not be surprised. The way I saw him drinking, I am surprised he is alive now, but I do not want to pass judgment.
SM (01:04:45):
Yeah.
RS (01:04:46):
It is unfortunate. Who knows the pressures that he was under from the government or God knows who else.
SM (01:04:55):
Right. Yeah. Of the personalities of the (19)60s and (19)70s, who were the ones that you feel had the greatest impact on the generation, or particularly had the greatest impact on you who were a part of the generation?
RS (01:05:06):
I would have to start with Ken Kesey. Yeah, I remember a quote of his, and I may be butchering it, but I believe it was, "Most people are destined to leave their lives never having moved off of dead center?
SM (01:05:23):
Wow. That is a beautiful quote.
RS (01:05:25):
I did not want to be one of those people.
SM (01:05:27):
Very good.
RS (01:05:29):
I did not want to be one of those people. What he did in terms of promulgating light shows that... I do not want to say promulgate, that is the wrong word. Of using light shows, of course, the Grateful Dead is his house band.
SM (01:05:48):
Right.
RS (01:05:48):
And Acid in the Punch Bowl when it was still legal, probably after it was illegal. Seemed like they were the counter culturals, I will say funsters. Of course their name was Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters.
SM (01:06:13):
Yeah, it is Wavy Gravy, I believe.
RS (01:06:13):
Yes.
SM (01:06:13):
And Paul was in their group?
RS (01:06:16):
Yes. As opposed to Timothy Leary, who as you know, begin doing scientific research, the [inaudible] and other hallucinogens. I remember reading about how bummed out Kesey and the Pranksters were going to Millbrook in upstate New York, and they were taking everything so seriously at Millbrook, which is not the wrong thing to do, but it was a very different approach from the West Coast.
SM (01:06:46):
Were there any other personalities besides Ken Kesey, that you think really shaped the generation, and then you as a part of the generation?
RS (01:06:57):
I liked Paul Krassner's writing very much.
SM (01:07:02):
I got a couple of his books, but I got to get more.
RS (01:07:04):
And The Realist was a wonderful publication. Of course, you never know what was true and what was not.
SM (01:07:16):
Right. His sense of humor is unbelievable though.
RS (01:07:19):
Oh, he is a brilliant, brilliant man. He told a story about writing an article for the AARP Magazine, and when he got it, his article was not... They told him they would publish it and it was not in there. They called him and they told, they published three different magazines, one for people over 50, one for people over 60, one for people over 70. He was surprised to find out he was too old to read his own writing.
SM (01:07:47):
He said they had a-
RS (01:07:51):
He said that many times. Yeah, he said that-
SM (01:08:00):
I am laughing just... And I saw it yesterday on YouTube.
RS (01:08:04):
Still I love him.
SM (01:08:06):
He is a great guy. I got to meet him. I am going to come to LA next time instead of San Francisco.
RS (01:08:10):
He is in the Palm Springs area.
SM (01:08:13):
Yeah. How far is that from LA?
RS (01:08:17):
You got me. I cannot answer that. I know it... I do not know.
SM (01:08:21):
I know Cleve Jones moved there too. The AIDS quilt guy.
RS (01:08:27):
Okay.
SM (01:08:30):
He left San Francisco. He got tired of the overcast skies, so he is not there in San Francisco anymore. A lot of people are moving down there, according to what I am hearing. What do you think were the most impactful movies in that time that you were in college, that you remember, that you think were very influential on...
RS (01:08:53):
Haskell Wexler's Medium Cool, very interesting, being from Chicago. It is a cinéma verité film, a great deal of which was filmed at the Democratic Convention Street protests, it was good. Arthur Penn's Bonnie and Clyde was a new type of movie. Maybe I should not say new type. It was influential. Joe with Peter Boyle was a frightening movie.
SM (01:09:22):
I remember that. Yeah.
RS (01:09:26):
Joe was a very, I will say a conservative person, who at the end ended up shooting his own daughter. He was goaded into... Excuse me, I should not say that. Let me back up. I made a mistake about the content of the movie. Should I just say it was a very influential movie about extremely conservative…
SM (01:09:54):
Yeah.
RS (01:09:55):
I do not want to use the word redneck, because he was a northerner.
SM (01:10:00):
Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is...
SM (01:10:02):
Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is...
RS (01:10:02):
Well, how about if I just say he was a very influential... It was a very influential...
SM (01:10:11):
Yeah, that is fine. Any others? I always want to know-
RS (01:10:17):
Well, Woodstock of course.
SM (01:10:18):
Oh, yeah.
RS (01:10:19):
Groundbreaking movie in terms of its techniques and portrayal so many phenomenal rock bands. Similarly, Monterey Pop.
SM (01:10:28):
Hmm.
RS (01:10:32):
And Give Me Shelter by the Maysles brothers of Altamont was a-
SM (01:10:37):
Yeah.
RS (01:10:37):
... great movie. And of course, Easy Rider.
SM (01:10:40):
Yes.
RS (01:10:41):
Which was frightening, which I saw in LA in 1969 and walked out of there with friends shaking.
SM (01:10:43):
Yeah, I did not expect that ending.
RS (01:10:53):
I do not think anybody.
SM (01:10:54):
I often wondered when his friend got shot away, why he kept going.
RS (01:11:01):
Well, he turned around and then he got to... there was a prequel, it was showing the future before it happened.
SM (01:11:09):
Oh, okay.
RS (01:11:10):
And he turned, Dennis Hopper, turned around and got shot too.
SM (01:11:14):
Yeah.
RS (01:11:16):
But that was a frightening movie.
SM (01:11:20):
How about the Graduate? Was that the-
RS (01:11:21):
Very interesting film. Saw it and was still in high school.
SM (01:11:30):
And then, the Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was supposed to be about the sexual mores of the era.
RS (01:11:36):
Yes. Sexual mores at the [inaudible] in at the end.
SM (01:11:40):
Right. And I think there was another movie that seemed to be the Zabriski Point.
RS (01:11:47):
God, you have a good number. Yes, I think there was a Strawberry Statement as well.
SM (01:11:52):
Yeah. That came later. And then there was the Sterile Cuckoo, Liza Minnelli.
RS (01:12:03):
I should remember that. But I do not, all I remember was Liza Minnelli's name.
SM (01:12:10):
Yeah, and Wendell Burton-
RS (01:12:13):
Okay. Go ahead.
SM (01:12:13):
Yeah. Liza Minnelli and Wendell Burton. And then of course Shaft.
RS (01:12:15):
Yes.
SM (01:12:16):
Yeah.
RS (01:12:16):
Interesting.
SM (01:12:22):
Was there anything on TV that you think will really... Well, you mentioned about the black and white TV and the Boomers were all in junior, or excuse me, in elementary school during that period. Or, just when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody, I think of Captain Kangaroo, I think of Dave Garaway Peace. I think of Hopalong Cassidy Lone Ranger.
RS (01:12:52):
How about Pinky Lee?
SM (01:12:53):
Yeah, Pinky Lee.
RS (01:12:54):
Pee-wee Herman's... what is the word? Influence.
SM (01:13:02):
Yeah. Rootie Kazootie. But there was also Walt Disney and all those shows, the Mouseketeers, Westerns galore. Very few African-Americans-
RS (01:13:14):
Start with the political things. Like that was the week that was, I thought a very interesting TV show.
SM (01:13:20):
Right.
RS (01:13:20):
Taken from the British show doing politics. Of course Laugh-In.
SM (01:13:26):
That was the (19)60s though.
RS (01:13:28):
Yeah. The Smothers Brothers, of course.
SM (01:13:30):
Yep.
RS (01:13:30):
Were very influential. What they went through just to put on the people like Peter Seeger was unbelievable.
SM (01:13:37):
Uh-huh, yep.
RS (01:13:42):
I did not watch much TV, but there was, God, I am trying to... Ted Paulson Show, very good.
SM (01:13:45):
I know in the (19)50s, Edward R. Murrow was seen to be a pretty honest guy.
RS (01:13:58):
Was.
SM (01:13:58):
Yeah.
RS (01:13:58):
Then Walter Cronkite took up the mantle.
SM (01:14:01):
Right.
RS (01:14:02):
When he said the war in Vietnam was unwinnable, I think that was a little turning point of the country.
SM (01:14:07):
Mm-hmm.
RS (01:14:09):
But there were so many written influence, such as underground comics, Robert Crumb, like Zapp! Comics written for kids.
SM (01:14:21):
Oh yeah, and that made into a movie in 1971.
RS (01:14:24):
Yeah, which was not that wonderful, I saw it of course.
SM (01:14:24):
Right.
RS (01:14:32):
But there were, I mean, so many influential publications, so many underground newspapers, magazine comics, countercultural publication, it seemed like eventually some of it eventually seeped into mainstream society.
SM (01:14:53):
One question I have been asking everyone is today you have members of the right, or conservatives, attacking the (19)60s generation, or the boomers that were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reasons why we have all the problems in our society today, or most of them, because of the drug culture, the lack of sexual mores, i.e. the sexual revolution, the extreme divorce rate, breakup of the American family as a unit, the lack of going... families not going to church anymore. Went from going to church or synagogue to kind of an inner spirituality, and we saw that through the Beatles and the Maharishi and that group, the Moonies. Then we have, again, they attack the generation for the welfare state, the handout society, the sense of, "Well, I got to have it now." Type of an attitude, extensive consumerism where, "I got to have everything. I got to own everything. And, "If I cannot have it, I got to have it now." Kind of mentality. And that is why we have the financial problems we are in today. So, there is a lot of things. The other thing is too, that we have come into a society where it is all about rights. Everybody wants their rights, but lost them are irresponsible. Your thoughts of those attacks by people on the right?
RS (01:16:46):
I think back to a Bob Dylan line of, "Do not criticize what you cannot understand."
SM (01:16:51):
Well, that is good.
RS (01:16:54):
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of what we tried to do. Making a more equitable and egalitarian society I think has been and always will be seen as a threat to the establishment. I mean, there have always been the proletariat, bourgeoisie, but in the electronic age, such as we have, it seems like things are happening so much faster. The concentration of wealth, I think was one of the major problems. It was not enough to make a lot, you had to make more, and the other person had to have less. I think it is up to that, I think it is based on fear by and large, that there is not enough to go around so, "I am going to get mine and good luck with yours."
SM (01:17:43):
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is interesting because I know Randy Shaw, who you may know in San Francisco, the Tenderloin, and he also graduated from Berkeley. He wrote a book called The Activist Handbook. And in that handbook, he talks about the definition of what an activist is. And it is if you ever say the term, "What is in it for me?" You are not an activist because it is supposed to be, "What is in it for we?" And so that was interesting what you just said there, because there was some kind of a linkage. And how important-
RS (01:18:30):
I am a little punchy, so forgive me and please do not let me take things off the record, but it was about Plato being forced by the establishment to drink hemlock for telling the truth.
SM (01:18:44):
Mm-hmm, that is right.
RS (01:18:48):
You can include that. I am a little punchy, I was going to say Socrates...
SM (01:18:51):
Yeah, but there is true to that. Yeah, the sort of [inaudible]-
RS (01:18:54):
Because he taught young people what he believed was the truth. He ended up with a phony trial and being forced to drink hemlock, I think is nothing though.
SM (01:19:03):
I know there is a book up, but I.F. Stone wrote called The Trial of Socrates.
RS (01:19:09):
Stone wrote, yeah. Yes, yes. This is nothing new.
SM (01:19:13):
Yep. Now you mentioned that again. How important were The Beats in shaping the generation, in your opinion, in shaping certainly the new left?
RS (01:19:27):
Well, the older get, I guess the more I see their influence. I mean, so in America, there has always been a Bohemian side, but it seems like after World War II things seem to coalesce in certain areas, like Greenwich Village in New York City, North Beach area in San Francisco. Returning GIs from the war. Jazz musicians, liberal writers, they seemed to start gathering in certain places. Maybe they were always there, and I just did not know about it. But for example, in the early (19)50s, Lawrence Ferlinghetti opened up City Life Bookstore in San Francisco. He originally intended it only to be a store that sold only paperback books, but it became a magnet for disaffected writers and artists. Of course, he was put on trial for publishing Howl in 1956 an obscenity trial where the mores at the time said the police could decide what was obscene or not. If police did not like what you did, you did not do it.
SM (01:20:46):
Right.
RS (01:20:46):
Lenny Bruce is a good example.
SM (01:20:50):
And do you think that even that historic book that Kerouac wrote On the Road, it is symbolic of freedom, sense of-
RS (01:21:01):
Absolutely, it was adventures and observations of his encounters with America while being on the road.
SM (01:21:07):
And he is not being controlled by a boss, or by... he is just free.
RS (01:21:13):
Well, for me, it is a landmark of Pete writing was Ellen Ginsburg's Howl, you know about the dehumanization and degradation of the individual by the all-consuming corporate monolith. You know, you asked me about movies, Network was another one, which is-
SM (01:21:34):
Oh, yes.
RS (01:21:34):
... very, very good.
SM (01:21:37):
Go out to that window and say, "I am not going to take it anymore."
RS (01:21:41):
Yes. But also Ed Beatty as, maybe the CEO or president of a large corporation. The world is business, and it is really sad that people see the world as a business.
SM (01:21:58):
Another movie that you brought up I just thought of is Deliverance.
RS (01:22:04):
Yes and no. I mean, that was a...
SM (01:22:04):
He was in that too.
RS (01:22:11):
Yes, he was. Oh, you brought him up. Yes.
SM (01:22:13):
Yep.
RS (01:22:14):
I do not know that that is relevant politically.
SM (01:22:16):
Right.
RS (01:22:20):
It was culture, culture clash. But Howl...
SM (01:22:24):
Yeah.
RS (01:22:24):
The thing with the... and with Network, forgive me, Peter Fitz said, "It was not America that was finished, it was the individual that was finished." Afraid things are going in that direction. It seemed as though in the (19)60s we could be one step ahead of the man. Right now, it seems with all the high tech equipment and other means of control, they are one step ahead of us.
SM (01:22:56):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end, and what was the watershed moment?
RS (01:23:03):
I think it really began, if you want to speak about the (19)60s and not what led up to them, such as The Beats. I would say Ken Kesey, the epitaph, the Merry Pranksters and Grateful Dead, whom I like very, very much, playing long improvisational music. But Kesey was a very, very bright man exposing the world. The Magical Mystery Tour about the Beatles, as you know, was really a copy of what Kesey did.
SM (01:23:43):
When did it end?
RS (01:23:46):
Probably as the war wound down, the draft was abolished, it was became more self-interested, and less society... this is a bad phrasing, society interested.
SM (01:24:01):
Was there a watershed moment?
RS (01:24:07):
Possibly the reelection of Nixon, that area, that time, early (19)70s, after Jimmy Hendrix had died, Janice Joplin had died, Jim Morrison had died. Many political people, Fred Hampton had been assassinated in Chicago. It seemed to start losing its steam.
SM (01:24:38):
The generation gap. Did you have a generation gap of your parents, especially after you went off to college?
RS (01:24:46):
Yes and no. My father always said it was more important what was in my head then what was on it. And I believe that is true, we are hung up on the looks of rebellion rather than the ideas of rebellion.
SM (01:25:05):
Excellent. Yeah. There is no question that the generation gap was an issue between World War II generation and the boomers. Do you remember that Life magazine cover that had the boy on the cover that... wearing his blue glasses or whatever and the father's pointing a finger at him on one side of the glasses?
RS (01:25:27):
Yeah, I do.
SM (01:25:28):
And the son's pointing on the other. I had that magazine, it was pretty serious for many.
RS (01:25:35):
Well, I remember a quote that Ronald Reagan said while he was governor of California during protests at the University of California in Berkeley, "That if there is going to be a blood bath let us start now." He talked about killing people's own children.
SM (01:25:54):
Yeah, it is... And he came to power on two issues, this law and order on college campuses to end the student protestors from breaking up colleges, and secondly, to end the welfare state. And it is interesting because Watts took place in (19)64 in Los Angeles, so obviously what went on at Berkeley, what was going on in Watts and a lot of these things are directly related to him. And of course, that was a thrust onto the national stage in (19)76, and of course we know the rest of the history.
RS (01:26:37):
It was stunning how easily people were willing to... What is the word? Take extreme measures against people who thought different.
SM (01:26:55):
Right.
RS (01:26:58):
We used to call them the thought police, and I think we were right.
SM (01:27:03):
In your own words because you are a boomer and I guess you are 60, you were born in (19)49?
RS (01:27:09):
60 going on 19.
SM (01:27:12):
That is... Time and peace, same with me. I am not 60.
RS (01:27:17):
I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do when I grow up.
SM (01:27:21):
Yeah, Rick, that is the same thing with me.
RS (01:27:25):
My hair is just as long, I have worked out a lot. No, you can grow older without growing old.
SM (01:27:36):
I agree. And I believe the young people of that era, even though they stay in shape to try to stay young and so forth, there was a period of time many did not think that they were going to be mortal people, but they were going to live forever, I think they realized they were not going to now. But you know-
RS (01:27:57):
I saw people in law school in their early 20s who look like old men.
SM (01:28:04):
Yeah.
RS (01:28:04):
Not physically, but so much is spiritually.
SM (01:28:08):
Right.
RS (01:28:09):
You could see the... Yeah, their adolescence was a distant memory.
SM (01:28:17):
Yep.
RS (01:28:17):
Was all about the buck.
SM (01:28:20):
Yeah.
RS (01:28:22):
A work, go work hard in a law school, hope that a big corporate law firm hires you, 80 hours a week, make partner, buy a big house and then get divorced, move on to your... get rid of your starter wife and move up the social ladder.
SM (01:28:43):
And have a heart attack by 50. Sam... Describe the following years in your own words. You said, this is the era the boomers have been alive, do you like the term boomer?
RS (01:28:56):
I do not think it has been well defined. I mean, what is a boomer? Just because you were born a certain age, at a certain time period. I think it is more what you do than the time you were born. Were the boomers, by many people's definition, they psychologically were.
SM (01:29:17):
Yep. Yeah. I am finding that out that-
RS (01:29:20):
Ginsburg was a, if you want to think, Allen Ginsburg was a boomer.
SM (01:29:26):
Mm-hmm. Richie Havens was born in 1941, but he said, "I am a boomer. I am more of a boomer than the people who were boomers in the last 10 years of the boomer timeline." A lot of them believe boomers are really people that were born say around (19)37, (19)38 and go to about (19)56 or (19)57.
RS (01:29:47):
Rachel Meadow said something, and I know I am mangling her quote about, "Being put in a category so you could be satirized easily."
SM (01:29:56):
Right. Well, when you look at these periods, again, it is defined, higher ed does this for a reason, the boomers of those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that is the definition. And Obama would be a boomer because he was born in (19)62, I think.
(01:30:14):
But I am going to give you six timeframes here just put some words to these timeframes. For 1946 to 1960, what was it like to be in America at that time? Just a few words.
RS (01:30:31):
Conform, and they were wearing t-shirts, white t-shirts with nothing printed on them. I think Country Joe McDonald did something like that, "We wore white t-shirts, but we did not have anything written, nothing was written them.
SM (01:30:45):
Yep. I remember that.
RS (01:30:50):
When you graduated from high school, you went to work, went to college, or joined the army.
SM (01:30:56):
Mm-hmm. How about that period? (19)61 to (19)70?
RS (01:31:06):
You know, for me, probably the low point was the assassination of John Kennedy. I knew right away nothing would ever be the same.
SM (01:31:11):
Mm-hmm. Where were you when he was shot?
RS (01:31:17):
I sitting in the classroom in seventh grade when it came over to the intercom.
SM (01:31:22):
And were you let out of school early?
RS (01:31:25):
I believe so. I believe so. That was a terrible time, and I believe the country lost a great deal of its innocence and naivete.
SM (01:31:36):
When you look at that whole period about (19)61 through (19)70, besides Kennedy, what comes to mind? Or, does he dominate?
RS (01:31:48):
Could you repeat the question?
SM (01:31:50):
Yeah. Between 1961 and 1970, what comes to mind besides Kennedy? Or, is that assassination the dominant theme?
RS (01:31:59):
Kind of, for me a good analogy would be changing from watching a black and white TV to watching a color TV. Things exploded. I mean, there was the free speech movement in Berkeley. There was Ken Kesey and the Mary Pranksters, the use of cut... expanding drugs, a certain more openness to question what had been taken for granted.
SM (01:32:33):
Mm-hmm. How about the period (19)71 to 1980?
RS (01:32:43):
Liberalism, but retrenching. Talk about legalizing marijuana by Jimmy Carter, and I do not want to put words in his mouth, that was not what he said. Possibly the decriminalization, and I should not quote him either because I do not want to, but the decriminalization of marijuana, the mainstream acceptance of some of the arts. Including music, drawings, clothes. Yet, retrenching at the same time. I will never forget when I came out to Berkeley in 1976 to visit, I went into the Good Earth health food store and the girl working behind the counter was wearing a shirt with an alligator on it. I knew things had changed.
SM (01:33:42):
Yeah. How about 1981 to 1990?
RS (01:33:55):
Yeah. Think about that one. I cannot give you something off the top of my head. That is hard. Disco? No, that was earlier. I should not say disco.
SM (01:33:59):
That was the (19)76 to (19)80.
RS (01:34:12):
Oh God, I am dating myself.
SM (01:34:13):
Ronald Reagan was that period.
RS (01:34:16):
He was. Just say no, the demonization of the (19)60s and the counterculture.
SM (01:34:29):
How about 1991 to 2000?
RS (01:34:35):
At first, the belief that we had elected for president one of us. Clinton playing saxophone on Arsenio Hall was something I never expected to see a presidential candidate do. Well, Nixon played the piano on Jack Paar, I believe.
SM (01:34:55):
Right.
RS (01:34:55):
Not the same.
SM (01:35:00):
Yeah. I think-
RS (01:35:00):
The idea that we had elected someone who would understand, to use a cliche, where we were coming from, because he and his wife were one of us.
SM (01:35:15):
Mm-hmm. And the period-
RS (01:35:28):
Art, hip.
SM (01:35:29):
Right.
RS (01:35:29):
Intelligent and presumably liberal.
SM (01:35:30):
Then the period 2001 to 2011?
RS (01:35:35):
Frightening.
SM (01:35:38):
Certainly 9/11 defined it.
RS (01:35:40):
Frightening. The rationalization of entrenching further and further government control in every aspect of people's lives, and the justification for taking away people's liberty.
SM (01:36:01):
This is just another thing too. When you are talking about the period, how did the Cold War, McCarthyism, the threat of the nuclear bomb, the space race, the March on Washington in (19)63, the Kennedy inaugural speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you..." And his assassination, the Cuban Missile Crisis, shape your life? Those are all major happenings. You already talked about JFK, but were those other events in some way affect your life?
RS (01:36:34):
Well, not directly, but it really made you feel how vulnerable you were. If the president can get shot what can happen to me?
SM (01:36:46):
You are right.
RS (01:36:50):
The impermanence of everything, if the mighty and powerful can be taken down, how about the little guy's chance? I keep going back to the movie Network, which I thought was excellent, about America not being finished. It was the end that we sit in our houses with our color TVs and we have some steel-belted radials. There was also another movie by Jules Pfeiffer, named Little Murders, with Elliot Gould.
SM (01:37:27):
Elliot Gould?
RS (01:37:28):
Who sat there living behind steel shutters in New York, sniping at people and then shooting back. Kind of like Escape from New York... let us see, a prequel to Escape from New York.
SM (01:37:43):
Wow.
RS (01:37:43):
I do not know where I am coming up with this.
SM (01:37:48):
Yeah, what is happened with a lot of my interviews is that I interviewed... Well, who was it? [inaudible]... Richard Flax. You know Dr. Flax?
RS (01:37:59):
I do not.
SM (01:37:59):
He helped write the free speech move... excuse me, the Tom Hayden, and he was a professor of UC Santa Barbara and I brought up things in it, and boy, he loved it yesterday or two days ago because it was bringing back these memories and he was pretty good at remembering things. And he felt real good at the end of the interview because it stretched his mind and made him remember things he had not thought about in a long time. Do you think we as a nation have an issue with healing, problem with healing? We took a group of students to Washington in 1995 to see Edmund Muskie and the students that I took down to Washington from my university were not alive in the (19)60s, but they had seen the 1968 convention, the terrible battles between police and young people, and they saw what happened inside the convention hall. They had seen movies of what was going on in the (19)60s. They knew the two people that were murdered in 1968, and they had seen some people in those videos saying that we are having a second civil war coming and all those other things. And since we had Edmund Muskie to talk to, he was the vice-presidential running mate. And so they thought he was going to respond to this question based on 1968. And the question was this, do you feel that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in our society, that during the time that the boomers have been alive, that they are going to go to their grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? That the bitterness, the vindictiveness, dislikes have continued in many ways and we see it today in our divisive nature, in our politics, and of course the backlash we see. So do you think we have a problem as a nation with healing?
RS (01:40:06):
I do, and I am not optimistic. Views seem to be getting more and more and more entrenched. I mean, an example is Fox News and MSNBC, I cannot recall the name of the writer of a wrote about mirror culture, how you only want to see things that reflect back what you already want to see. I think that is very true. I am guilty of it myself. I think conservative people will go to their graves saying that we ruined America and liberal people will go to their graves saying we tried to save it.
SM (01:40:53):
Do you think that the wall, the Vietnam Memorial, which I know you probably visited.
RS (01:41:02):
Actually, I have not, but I am familiar with it.
SM (01:41:05):
Yeah. Has that done anything, as Jan Scruggs said in his book, not only did we build the wall mainly to heal the vets, the families of those who died, and the 3 million who served, but that we tried in some way to heal the nation. Do you think the wall has done that?
RS (01:41:23):
I do not. I think it is a wonderful monument to people who died, in my view, unnecessarily. But as far as healing goes, I do not know. I think it is a place for people to go and grieve family or friend, but an influence beyond that, I do not think, I do not so.
SM (01:41:45):
Do you think, I have a question here too regarding trust. That one of the major qualities that the boomer generation possesses, and I kind of include all 70... I do not like to generalize, but I think in this one I am that all 74 million, those who were for or against the war, liberals, conservatives, or even the 85 to 90 percent who were not activists in any way and just went on with their lives, so to speak, but were subconsciously affected that this is a generation that did not trust. It did not trust because of the fact that so many of their leaders lied to them. Whether you were astute enough to see Eisenhower lie to elementary school kids in 1959 about U2, the spy plane that he said it was not, and it was. To the Gulf of Tonkin with Lyndon Johnson, to Watergate with Richard Nixon, to all the lies that came out of Vietnam in terms of numbers. And there did not seem to be any trusting in our generation toward anyone in the sense of authority, whether it be a president, a university president, a corporate leader, a rabbi, a priest, a minister, anybody in a position of leadership, we do not trust them.
RS (01:43:04):
I think it is a health mistrust. I think not questioning authority is unhealthy. Again, I keep going wait to the classics, the Greek classics.
SM (01:43:20):
Right?
RS (01:43:21):
People have always been punished for questioning the predominant, I do not want to use rulers, what is a better word than rulers? Governing authority. Remember a bumper sticker, "Subvert the dominant paradigm." That is very good. That is very good.
SM (01:43:56):
Do you remember as a young person, when you were a college student, you would see a car that had an American flag on it and you knew that the person who had the American flag was a conservative saying that, "I am a better American than you are." Basically a statement to those who were against the war.
RS (01:44:15):
Absolutely. I remember a friend telling me a story about he was attending the University of Iowa, going into this small town for whatever reason, meeting hostility and running into some guy who he saw also had long hair, was as if had met his brother, you knew you could trust him. You knew who someone was by their looks, I should say you knew what they believed by their looks. Now, I think there are a great deal of wolves in sheep clothing.
SM (01:44:51):
Yeah. I think there were a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing, but I can remember just getting off the subject, but I was picked up by my dad, we were going home from college and he pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had a white... He pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had an American flag. I did not have that long hair. I had longer hair, but not real long.
RS (01:45:10):
Were you a communist homosexual radical?
SM (01:45:13):
No, but what happened was I looked at that flag and I said to my dad, "I got to say something to that guy." My dad said, "Steve, do not start something here." Because basically I would learned that putting an American flag on your car then, not like it is now, it is different today, but putting a flag on your car then was basically saying, "I am a better American than you are." And that pissed me off.
RS (01:45:39):
Well, the prevalent attitude by many people was "love it or leave it."
SM (01:45:42):
That is right.
RS (01:45:42):
Instead of love it or change it.
SM (01:45:42):
Yes.
RS (01:45:49):
That is not the right way to say this. Love it and change it.
SM (01:45:53):
Exactly.
RS (01:45:54):
It was not, if you did not like it, get out. Because if you like it, help it.
SM (01:46:01):
What are the lessons learned from the (19)60s? And what are the lessons lost from the (19)60s?
RS (01:46:10):
I think one of them is to have fun. To have fun. I remember in the movie Citizen Kane, Edward Everett Horton, who played Bernstein, saying to the reporter interviewing him, "It is very easy to make a lot of money if all you want to do is make a lot of money." I want to do a lot more. Although I could certainly use the financial, cannot count it when you are dead. Although, oh, that is a stupid thing to fix. You cannot count anything after you are dead. But try hugging it when you are lonely or scared. Human... There is a word I am searching. Human values rather than material value?
SM (01:47:11):
Yeah, materialism.
RS (01:47:15):
It is necessary, but it is not sufficient. How about that?
SM (01:47:25):
That is great.
RS (01:47:26):
Accumulation of objects and wealth may be necessary, but it certainly is deficient.
SM (01:47:29):
What are the lessons you think we have lost from the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Or when boomers were young?
RS (01:47:37):
Certainly there is more cynicism, bitterness. I think what we lost is the sense that we can make a difference. As I said earlier, many people, young people, I believe give up without trying. How will they know?
SM (01:48:05):
I know that when you hear people like Tom Hayden and some of the other activists who have been unbelievable leaders their whole lives, they look at the positive side of today's generation as they see some of the activism that they are involved in on the computer. It is changed somewhat, but there is a lot of activism going on-on the internet and so forth, so there are some good things. It is just one of them seems to be that they are not publicized and so we do not know.
RS (01:48:38):
I disagree. I am very late to the technological revolution. I do not believe that someone sending you an email from Australia telling you "your friend" makes them your friend. I thought a friend with someone you could call late at night when you needed them and they would come. That is someone who wants to get on a social network and say, " I am your friend," but then if you ever actually spoke and called them and needed help, will they be there for you?
SM (01:49:10):
Good point. Yep. I am now to the section I want to ask you about your memorabilia after all this time. Sorry, make sure the tapes back on here again. And it seems to be working. All right. You said in your email that you have a thousand items and 700 are signed.
RS (01:49:44):
I have several thousand items.
SM (01:49:45):
Wow. Have you broken these down into different categories? What are the categories?
RS (01:49:56):
Books. I collect first edition books. Books, posters, handbills, leaflets, underground newspapers, underground comics, bumper stickers, records, clothes, pinback buttons, and a lot of miscellaneous stuff.
SM (01:50:28):
I should have told you, I just got rid of all my (19)70s clothes.
RS (01:50:31):
Oh.
SM (01:50:33):
I gave them to the Salvation Army. I had them all these years. They were in great shape too.
RS (01:50:39):
Do not tell me stuff like that.
SM (01:50:41):
Well, I figured they did not have any value.
RS (01:50:43):
I do not know. I have clothes, but I have no idea what the value is.
SM (01:50:50):
Right. Well, I still have some of them, but it is the clothes I wore. You know those shoes that were platform shoes and those kinds of things?
RS (01:50:57):
Absolutely.
SM (01:50:59):
Well, I did not get rid of those, but I do have some of the items.
RS (01:51:04):
Glam Rock stuff.
SM (01:51:06):
Oh, yeah. Now, how did you accumulate? Did you buy these or did you... And how did you get them all signed? Or did you collect them while you were in college, or has this all been something since your college days in collecting?
RS (01:51:21):
No, I started collecting things in college: underground newspapers, comics, posters, leaflets. Political protest leaflets I would take off a telephone pole. They looked interesting, and many of them were period pieces with artwork. I knew these things were unique to the time period, and I felt that they should be preserved.
SM (01:51:50):
Excellent.
RS (01:51:50):
Later on, in the (19)80s, I got a catalog from someone who had taken many items. And it was the first time I had seen these things categorized and broken down into logical, coherent categories. I bought a few items and it became obsessive.
SM (01:52:13):
It is like me, I am a bibliophile, so I have thousands of books. So, I have a lot of (19)60s books.
RS (01:52:20):
I have a lot myself, but I thought that it would be wonderful to meet some of the people who were involved and participated in all the activities. And I started going to book signings and political discussions and just hearing all the lecturers, authors, as well as scrounging through used bookstores, junk shops, yard sales, catalogs, Paper Collectors Magazines, record stores. That is quite a bit.
SM (01:53:00):
Yeah. Well, what is interesting, I have collected anything dealing with Vietnam on magazines. And I have ordered them all. And so I have just about anything linked of Vietnam. I have all the Look, Life magazines that have Vietnam. I have gotten a lot of Newsweek and Time magazines dealing with that as well.
RS (01:53:23):
Posters. I am sorry to interrupt.
SM (01:53:25):
Yeah, go ahead.
RS (01:53:26):
I think posters could be broken down into two different groups, really. Posters that were used for one specific event, such as a protest rally or a music concert or a literary event. The posters produced either commercially or underground dealing with politics, ecology, et cetera. One example of the first one are Fillmore or Avalon posters, meaning posters used to promote events at the Fillmore Auditorium or the Avalon ballroom.
SM (01:53:57):
Oh, yeah.
RS (01:54:01):
And posters for political events or handbills such as the Yippies passed out before the Democratic Convention. And then just generalized things like "Make Love Not War" was one classic. Just in general cultural items.
SM (01:54:23):
Bill Graham, somebody bought a warehouse of all his stuff.
RS (01:54:28):
Sure. I bought some things from Ben Friedman, he used to have a store called The Postermat at 601 Columbus in San Francisco.
SM (01:54:34):
Right.
RS (01:54:36):
Yes.
SM (01:54:36):
They were sitting there for years, just in the closed warehouse, is not that correct?
RS (01:54:41):
Yes. Well, I do not want to get off, but this is off the record, but people from the company called Park Rock bought it. This is what they paid. Oh, they bought it for a million dollars, made the first payment and then stiffed them. And they made a small fortune on this stuff.
SM (01:54:57):
Oh, wow.
RS (01:54:57):
It is more than a small one.
SM (01:54:59):
Wow. Yeah. Now, when you talk about how many... I broke it down here. I thought you had had books, posters, records. Do you have toys?
RS (01:55:11):
I have miscellaneous of things. A jigsaw puzzle with Agnew on one side and Nixon on the other. I do not know toys per se, but miscellaneous items: little figurines, clothes, just all sorts of things.
SM (01:55:32):
Yeah. I still have all my cowboy and Indian sets from the (19)50s.
RS (01:55:39):
Wow.
SM (01:55:40):
Yeah. And army, those metal army figures. I accumulated them all. They are all going to my... I am creating a center for the study of the boomer generation at my parents' college.
RS (01:55:54):
What I would like to do very, very much is get some of my stuff in display cases.
SM (01:55:59):
Yes.
RS (01:56:00):
Exhibit. I spoke with the director of special collections for the University of Virginia Library, and he is very interested, but they have a lag time for exhibits for two years. They have a large collection of their own. And he said he would run it by a committee to see if they wanted to get involved with my stuff, but I do not think they have a budget to do it.
SM (01:56:25):
Yeah. Do you have a website with some? You do not put your stuff out there on the pictures.
RS (01:56:28):
No, I do not. I am private that way. I do not want someone to see what I have.
SM (01:56:28):
Yeah. I think you need to keep that private.
RS (01:56:35):
I would be happy to show it to them, but I do not really publicize what I do, what I have.
SM (01:56:40):
Yeah, same here. I have a condominium here and I got two of the rooms are stacked with books and books everywhere and people cannot believe all the books I have.
RS (01:56:49):
Yeah. What I have is my stuff. There is a company that makes archival things called Light Impressions, archival storage boxes with pH neutral cardboard and Mylar sleeves. I have hundreds and hundreds, if not more, of my handbills and leaflets in Mylar sleeves.
SM (01:57:15):
Wow. Those are—
RS (01:57:15):
Supposedly, Mylar is chemically inert and will last for a hundred years.
SM (01:57:18):
Wow. Yeah, you said you have used them in a college course. What college and how did they use them?
RS (01:57:27):
There was a course at the college at Marin on the 19(19)60s, and I brought some to show. But I enjoy meeting some of the people who were involved or caused so much of everything to happen. Like everyone from Jerry Rubin, Paul Krassner, people involved with the Human Be-In in Golden Gate Park. Rock musicians. Of course, Ginsburg, Berliner, Getty, Michael McClure, Tim Leary, John Sinclair from the White Panther Party. Then Tom Hayden.
SM (01:58:13):
Do you have presidential memorabilia too from that era?
RS (01:58:17):
Not really. I have political posters, but I would not call it presidential memorabilia.
SM (01:58:28):
Yeah.
RS (01:58:28):
And anti-Nixon, anti- Johnson. Yeah.
SM (01:58:37):
I actually, this is your interview, but I collected as a kid, so I had the Eisenhower/Nixon stuff, and then I have the Nixon/Lodge stuff who ran against Kennedy and Johnson. Then I have Kennedy/Johnson, and then I have Barry Goldwater and Miller.
RS (01:58:55):
Well, I have a Gene McCarthy item signed by him and a George McGovern item signed by him.
SM (01:59:04):
Great. Yeah. You noticed the people that I have interviewed, most of them have signed their books. And then, of course, I worked at the university for 30 some years, and so everybody that came through, I had them sign their books. So I have a lot of things too. But I am curious, I listed some names here from Jerry Ruben to Ken Kesey, Alan Ginsburg, Leary, Paul Krassner, Jerry Garcia. Any of the Black Panther stuff?
RS (01:59:33):
Sure.
SM (01:59:34):
Yeah. I wonder what happened to all that stuff that was over in Oakland. Did anybody ever keep any of that stuff besides you?
RS (01:59:43):
I believe the Black Panthers sold their archive to Stanford University. But sure, Bobby Seale, Kathleen Cleaver, and a number of other people's signatures.
SM (02:00:00):
Wow. How about the free speech movement? Any materials on that?
RS (02:00:03):
Absolutely. Mario Savio who passed away long ago signed a few of my things. Michael Rossman, who passed away did. Yes, I do. I really have a well-rounded collection in a lot of different areas: political, social, artistic.
SM (02:00:28):
And then of course you had... I do not know if you had materials from the Summer of Love, which was (19)67 and—
RS (02:00:35):
A great deal. There was a group in the 1967 Summer of Love in The Haight-Ashbury called The Diggers, which was—
SM (02:00:42):
Oh, yeah. That is with Peter Coyote.
RS (02:00:45):
I have approximately 40 of their handbills.
SM (02:00:48):
Wow.
RS (02:00:51):
Sure. I have all five handbills the Human Be-in.
SM (02:00:57):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:00:57):
And two printer variants. Each one has signed by about 15, 20 participants in the event. And one of the two Human Be-In posters, which is a classic. I have an original Acid Test poster from 1964, which is extremely rare, signed by Ken Kesey, and Allen Ginsberg, and Paul Krassner and others.
SM (02:01:21):
Wow. Yeah. How did you find that?
RS (02:01:27):
I got it from Kesey's son actually. I used to be friends with him in the (19)80s, (19)90s.
SM (02:01:31):
Oh, wow.
RS (02:01:33):
Zane Kesey. I was friends with him, and I actually went up to Oregon for the world premiere of a play his dad, Ken Kesey, wrote called Twister in the early (19)90s. And then when they put the play on here at the Fillmore Auditorium for two nights, I did the video camera work for one night.
SM (02:01:56):
Yeah. Do you have any things from Kent State too?
RS (02:02:09):
I have something that is absolutely unique. I got it from one of the attorneys for some of the National Guardsmen involved died, and in his estate was an actual transcript of where interrogation is, might be wrong, questioning of the National Guardsmen under oath as to what happened afterwards. It is one of a kind.
SM (02:02:34):
Wow. Yeah, I know recently, in the last couple years, one of those Guardsmen died that had actually spoken. Most of them have not spoken, but he was the one that had, and then he passed away. I forget his name.
RS (02:02:51):
I have Judge Julius Hoffman, who presided over the Chicago Seven trial in Chicago's Christmas album during that time with Christmas cards from Mayor Daley and the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, and a number of other people.
SM (02:03:05):
They did a record?
RS (02:03:07):
No. They did... Look, this is actually Judge... Let me back up. This is Judge Julius Hoffman's Christmas album. I do not mean album. I mean his own Christmas cards that were sent to him that he put in an album.
SM (02:03:20):
Oh my gosh. Wow.
RS (02:03:25):
I have quite a bit.
SM (02:03:26):
How would you ever find that? How do you find some of these things?
RS (02:03:30):
In the Paper Collectors Magazine about 20 years ago.
SM (02:03:34):
Wow.
RS (02:03:35):
Hang on for a second. Let me just grab some more water.
SM (02:03:36):
Yep, that is okay.
RS (02:03:37):
I got a lot of early SDS publications from the the early (19)60s and one called the Port Huron Statement. It was a pivotal document that came out in 1963. I do not know how much you want to hear about this.
SM (02:04:16):
Yeah, I just want just some of the items because it is important that this is history and this is all about history.
RS (02:04:19):
Sorry. Sorry, I interrupted you. Please go ahead. Go ahead.
SM (02:04:21):
No, I am done. Go ahead.
RS (02:04:23):
The Port Huron Statement was... What is the word? It had to do with student participation which is participatory democracy. A number of similar leaders from all over the country met in 1963 in Port Huron, Michigan to put together a manifesto for student participation in politics in society. I have a mimeograph draft version that Tom Hayden wrote, which I believe may be the only copy in the world.
SM (02:05:03):
Wow.
RS (02:05:04):
Signed by Tom Hayden.
SM (02:05:05):
Yeah, because you see he and Richard Flax were the two that wrote it. Wow.
RS (02:05:08):
I believe The Port Huron Statement was primarily written by Tom Hayden.
SM (02:05:09):
It was, but Richard Flax was a very good writer and Tom got to know him quite well, and he was involved in making some corrections and proper English, so he was there. I interviewed him on Monday. He is a retired sociology professor.
RS (02:05:35):
Huh.
SM (02:05:36):
And he has written some great books. He has written three major books on the (19)60s. He is a retired professor.
RS (02:05:46):
No, I have, as I said, a lot of early SDS items. I have Weather Underground items, Yippie items; hand bills mostly. Of course, Woodstock related items, including tickets and the program for Woodstock, which is very rare because it rained for three days and the programs were mostly destroyed.
SM (02:06:11):
You are right. You are right.
RS (02:06:14):
So, I have an original Woodstock program signed by some of the participants of Woodstock.
SM (02:06:19):
Wow. So that is really neat. Yeah, I have quite a few books that are signed by people, but it is fun, is not it, trying to get them to sign things if they are still alive, some of these people.
RS (02:06:36):
And some are nice and some are not, but I guess that is the way people are.
SM (02:06:40):
Right.
RS (02:06:42):
Some of them insist on dating things because when they date them it makes it less valuable than if they had just simply signed their name. But word records that are very rare dealing with politics or drug use, a whole host of things. It is hard to summarize several thousand items. I made a mistake. The Port Huron Statement, in addition to having the mimeograph, I also have a second printing. I just have the mimeograph draft statement.
SM (02:07:22):
I think the original was in a brown cover?
RS (02:07:25):
God, yeah. Yeah, you are right. Yes. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Yes.
SM (02:07:31):
And guess who has that?
RS (02:07:34):
You.
SM (02:07:34):
Yes. I found that in a used bookstore.
RS (02:07:39):
Well, I have the second printing and I have the mimeograph draft version, but I do not have a first printing.
SM (02:07:48):
Wow.
RS (02:07:50):
And then the San Francisco Oracle was the quintessential underground newspaper. Only 12 issues were put out. It was in San Francisco by Allen Cohen. And I have every issue also signed by Allen, who passed away. Fillmore and Avalon posters, as I said, and handbills.
SM (02:08:19):
Wow.
RS (02:08:20):
Several hundred pinback buttons, political and cultural, such as Make Love Not War.
SM (02:08:31):
The black fist for the Black Panthers?
RS (02:08:33):
Sure.
SM (02:08:34):
Yeah. Wow.
RS (02:08:36):
The many anti-Nixon, anti-Johnson, Gene McCarthy, George McGovern.
SM (02:08:45):
Wow. Excellent.
RS (02:08:53):
I really feel an obligation to try to preserve as much of the counterculture as possible.
SM (02:09:02):
Yeah. Now that you have got this collection together, what do you plan to do with it? You going to pass it on to a university for protection someday?
RS (02:09:14):
I really do not know. I have not decided.
SM (02:09:14):
Unless you got a family that cares about it.
RS (02:09:16):
Well, I am single.
SM (02:09:22):
As a person who is reached 62, (19)60s, I have had to think about where my stuff's going, and my family, none of them want this stuff. So, I am working on an arrangement with my parents' college that they will take my collection for nothing, as long as they protect it, preserve it, and they follow guidelines that I give to them. And it has to be for education, and it has to be for students and research.
RS (02:09:55):
Good.
SM (02:09:55):
Because you just cannot let it just go. And it has to go where it is going to be appreciated. And to me, it has to be used by students. And it is going to take a couple years, because this college, I could have done it to my alma mater SUNY Binghamton and I would have gotten a much bigger response and a much faster response. But I am doing it because my parents went to this small school outside Syracuse, Cazenovia College, and I want to be able to do something to improve their campus, but they have got to protect it. And it is going to take a while because they do not have the building, they do not have the money. And times are tough, but I know what I want them to do. And for items like you have, you also want to make sure that if a university ends up... you need to have a person that is going to check on them every so often, someone that you can trust that they are following through with what they said they were going to do with the materials. So, I have my niece, even though she has got... I have picked one person. She has agreed to do it. So that when all my items are there and all documented and everything, that no one professor can take items away from it and keep it for themselves. Secondly, some items have to be worn with white gloves. Thirdly, and most importantly, they cannot be taken away from the university and they cannot be taken away from the research area where they are. They are for student and faculty research. It is pure education. It is a lot easier said than done right now because that place is almost 400 miles from me. I am not going to die tomorrow, I hope, but I do know that I have it now that they are going to get them.
RS (02:11:57):
It is a good plan. I have not taken it that far yet.
SM (02:12:00):
Yeah, but you need to know that your items are valuable. And you know something? Rick, I think sometimes even beyond the person who collects, there is a reason why you are doing it that you may not even realize it while. You are doing it because you like it and you personally care about these things.
RS (02:12:22):
Well, also because I feel I have, for whatever reason, an obligation to preserve as much as possible of a time period I do not think it is ever going to happen again.
SM (02:12:32):
I agree.
RS (02:12:35):
This was a, I cannot say unique because every time period is unique, but a groundbreaking explosion of human potential.
SM (02:12:49):
Yeah. I think some of the things you have got are unique, because they have never existed before and will never exist again.
RS (02:12:58):
Well, showing how society had changed so much. I feel like a cultural historian.
SM (02:13:06):
And I know Paul, when he gave the names, it has taken me a while to contact the names. I think I had your name six months ago from Paul. But I have contacted everyone and the only person in the list that he gave me is Stewart Brand was the only one that did not want to do an interview. He is the only one.
RS (02:13:24):
Funny you mentioned him. About 20 years ago, I asked for some autographs on things. Excuse me, I have to eat something. I feel my blood sugar dropping down to zero. I was living in Mill Valley. Stewart Brand had a place in Sausalito where he did the Whole Earth catalog.
SM (02:13:46):
Yes.
RS (02:13:48):
I called and said, "I collected some things. They are not for resale. This is just for me. Would you sign all my stuff?" He said, "No autographs!" Just like that. "No, autographs!"
SM (02:14:01):
Yeah. Well, he must be a friend of Paul's. But he just simply said, "I have no interest at this time." But he also is a multi-millionaire now, and so he has got—
RS (02:14:15):
I think after he went to MIT and became a technocrat he kind of lost his roots.
SM (02:14:20):
Yeah. He is the only one. And then the other one is Ina May Gaskin. I interviewed Steven, but Ina May has not responded. So she is the only other one. And it took me a while to get Carolyn Garcia, but I finally got Carolyn.
RS (02:14:39):
She is sweet.
SM (02:14:40):
Oh, she is really nice. I interviewed her on the phone and when I was out there I took her picture just outside Golden Gate Park. She is a very nice person. By the way, she does not like that new book on Ken Kesey either.
RS (02:14:51):
Which one?
SM (02:14:52):
It is a brand-new book out. I bought it right over there by the Golden Gate Park, the Haight Street...
RS (02:15:06):
The Booksmith.
SM (02:15:06):
Yeah. And it was in there and it was brand new. And I mentioned to Carolyn when I was... She just drove over so I could take her picture at the entrance to the park to be at the top of her interview. And she says, "He was not supposed to print that book. There were certain things that I objected to and that I did not like." So, there is some mistruths in that book. And I do not know anything about it, but I think there is going to be some issues going on down the road on that. My last question is this, do you have any more to say on the memorabilia?
RS (02:15:42):
It is an incredible window into a wonderful time period in American history. Give me a second.
SM (02:15:54):
Yep.
RS (02:15:54):
Can I say something that if you want to put this in somewhere you can?
SM (02:15:58):
Okay.
RS (02:16:00):
I went to about 160 Grateful Dead concerts.
SM (02:16:03):
Wow.
RS (02:16:04):
Some of the best times in my life.
SM (02:16:06):
I only went to one.
RS (02:16:08):
Wonderful, wonderful. My first one was in Madison, actually, College. And at that time things were so loose that, looking appropriate, I just simply walked up some stairs up to the stage and spent the whole concert leaning on the bass player's, Phil Lesh's, amp.
SM (02:16:28):
Oh my God.
RS (02:16:28):
That is how things were in 1970. (19)71. Actually, this is (19)71 now.
SM (02:16:28):
Right?
RS (02:16:36):
Yeah. I have about 300 Grateful Dead tapes of concerts. One of them, I was friends with a friend of one of the guys, and at the 1986 New Year's show, they got me backstage. Not only backstage, but actually into the band room after the show where all the guys were. There were so many tanks of nitrous oxide, it looked like a hospital.
SM (02:16:59):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:17:01):
And I had some of the best times in my life at those shows. I think Joseph Campbell called them a Dionysian Celebration of Life. I cannot improve on that.
SM (02:17:16):
Yeah. Jerry Garcia was a hell of a talent. And what a great guitar player. And I never met him. I just mentioned to Carolyn, just from what I saw, and I see him on YouTube a lot, he seemed to be a very gentle person.
RS (02:17:29):
He was.
SM (02:17:29):
Even with interviews with him and Ken Kesey, they looked like they were brothers. They were having a good time together. There was a mutual respect. And he seemed to be a very humble person, because he came from tough times.
RS (02:17:48):
Well, he said, I think after being in the Grateful Dead for 20 years, he was just starting to learn how to play a guitar.
SM (02:17:53):
My God. Huh.
RS (02:17:57):
I used to see him driving his BMW around Mill Valley. He was friends, well not only friends, for many years with David Grisman, who was in the New Riders of the Purple Sage, and a phenomenal mandolin player who lived nearby, a few minutes away from where I lived. I would see him driving his black BMW.
SM (02:18:14):
Well, is not it amazing that the San Francisco Bay area has all this talent? I am amazed. And of course when I lived... I lived out there from (19)76 to (19)83, Huey Lewis and the News came up and the Tower of Power were there and Boz Scaggs over in Marin County. And there were a lot of different groups. I know John Handy and his saxophone playing down at the Embarcadero Center.
RS (02:18:40):
There it’s
s one event that stood out in my mind, and I do not know where you can put this in the interview if you choose to, but after I saw the Jefferson Airplane do a concert at the University of Wisconsin Field House two weeks after Kent State, there were about 15,000 people in the audience, and the conclusion, the last song they played was called Volunteers. It was off the Volunteers album. And one of the lines was, "Up against the wall, Motherfucker." And 15,000 people put their fists in the air.
SM (02:19:19):
Wow.
RS (02:19:20):
Something I will never forget.
SM (02:19:22):
Yeah, you mentioned at Wisconsin that you saw the Grateful Dead and you saw—
RS (02:19:25):
Janice. And Hendrix.
SM (02:19:25):
You saw all these people there?
RS (02:19:32):
I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix. It was after Woodstock, but before the movie came out. And I remember during the concert, somebody said, "What can we get you, Jimi?" And he said, "A joint." They started throwing joints at him. Joints are bouncing off his chest, off his guitar.
SM (02:19:51):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:19:54):
20 or 30 of them must have hit him. Joints. And then the last thing he did was appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner.
RS (02:20:03):
Appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner.
SM (02:20:07):
Oh yeah.
RS (02:20:07):
Which was before the movie came out. And then I had never seen In The Purple Haze.
SM (02:20:09):
Oh my God.
RS (02:20:11):
Phenomenal.
SM (02:20:14):
And you say you saw Janice there too?
RS (02:20:18):
Sure. (19)69, going to the concert November, wearing a coat and tie.
SM (02:20:28):
Unbelievable.
RS (02:20:28):
By the Kent state time I had changed. Can I tell you something that must be off the rec? My roommates and I used to buy hash from and Glenn Silber who did the War at Home movie.
SM (02:20:36):
Oh my gosh.
RS (02:20:38):
I have been around my friend.
SM (02:20:40):
Yeah. Well when Janice Joplin was, that was the Chief Turtles album, right around that time. I have a story, I have interviewed so many people, but the hippies were upset with her because of the fact that the hippies were into drugs, not alcohol.
RS (02:21:00):
She was into Southern Comfort.
SM (02:21:01):
Yeah, she was into Southern Comfort, and a lot of the hippies did not get along with her. She broke a rule. Hippies do not drink alcohol.
RS (02:21:10):
Maybe beer, but that was it.
SM (02:21:12):
Yeah, but they did not like the fact that she was doing that.
RS (02:21:15):
Mind-expanding.
SM (02:21:17):
Yeah. Any other rock groups or single performers that you saw in Wisconsin?
RS (02:21:25):
Country Joe to Jefferson Airplane to the Grateful Dead. So many of the people from that time. I mean, it would be hard to give, but all the usual suspects.
SM (02:21:43):
You know what is interesting, I have one last question here, but I will mention this just for general, it will not be in the interview, but when I was in college, I went to SUNY Binghamton and we had winter break and we had spring break and we had-
RS (02:21:54):
Wild place.
SM (02:21:56):
Yeah. And we had the Paul Butterfield Blues Band all the time performing at the campus center Friday. But we had Judy Collins, we had Arlo Guthrie, we had Odetta, Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington. And then we had Iron Butterfly and the Turtles and the Mountain.
RS (02:22:22):
Sure.
SM (02:22:25):
And the Chambers Brothers. We had all these groups. Love and Spoonful, and even The Birds and Anthony Imperials. I will just never forget all these groups and these concerts when I was a college student. There is no other time.
RS (02:22:45):
There is no other. I can give you a quote that I remember. If you want to use, so be it. Remember how they used to say drugs are for people who cannot handle reality? Our saying was reality was for people who cannot handle drugs.
SM (02:23:00):
That is a great quote. I will use that.
RS (02:23:07):
I did not make it up.
SM (02:23:08):
And do not forget, you are going to see this transcript, so you can scribble some of this stuff out. My last question is this, and I have asked this to everybody. When the best history books are written about any period, it is usually 50 years afterwards. The best World War II books were coming out in the early, well, about 2000, 2001. And so some of the best World War II books are coming out now. What do you think historians and sociologists and commentators will say about the (19)60s or the Boomer generation? I think I am going to say this, Boomer generation, this generation that was born after World War II, and was very young in the (19)60s and the seventies and early eighties. What do you think they will say? What will be the lasting legacy? And I say this knowing that the Boomers are now reaching older age, they still got 15 to 20 years left so they could change old age, but just your thoughts. What do you think they are going to say? Especially after the last Boomer may have passed on?
RS (02:24:10):
Well, that was the flowering of you and potential. So, we did not take anything at face value. So, we questioned authority, and that we can make a difference, and we did.
SM (02:24:27):
That is great. Is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
RS (02:24:37):
About the specific items in my collection, which I do not have to tell you about, but I really thought that is half of what you would do would be about what we had discussed, and half what would be about collecting counterculture member review. But I understand this is a sociology book and not for collectors.
SM (02:24:53):
Yeah. Well, you can tell me more about your collection because I did not know what items you had except some general items. I can ask specific questions like the items you have linked to Ken Kesey or any of the beats.
RS (02:25:09):
I mean, I have highlight, I have to tell you, in all honesty, I am pretty punchy. And not because of you, it is because I thought we would go for an hour and it is two and a half.
SM (02:25:20):
I think that is enough.
RS (02:25:21):
So I thought you said an hour and a half. But no, I am not complaining at all, I am just saying I am starting to wander a little. My mind is not quite as disciplined as when we started. But I think that we did make a difference. So I know we did. And then from now on, no one will take unquestioned the statement from the government to the mainstream media. That you need to think for yourself, draw your own conclusions, do not accept anything at face value without running it through your own mind and deciding whether it makes sense or not. And the motivations for what was said by whoever was saying and why? What are they looking for you to do? Is it in their self-interest or is it in yours?
SM (02:26:06):
Yeah. Using a Paul Krassner line, we just hit the midway point. Yeah, I think Paul would laugh at that. Tell you, fantastic.
RS (02:26:20):
Pleasure speaking to you.
SM (02:26:23):
Yeah, no, Rick, I wish I would come out when I was out to San Francisco. I had not been out there in 10 years.
RS (02:26:27):
You are always welcome to-
SM (02:26:29):
And I might go out again next year and I want to meet Paul and Nancy. I will even drive down if I have to down south just to see him. I want to take their pictures and stuff like that. There is a few other people in LA. But I regret that I had not called you before I went to San Francisco because I met seven people to take their pictures. I met Carolyn Garcia, took her picture. Peter Richardson, who wrote the book on Ramparts Magazine, Jim Quay, former head of the Arts council who lives in the Bay Area, and-
RS (02:27:03):
Wait, girl was sweet.
SM (02:27:05):
Huh?
RS (02:27:06):
Carolyn Cassidy was known during the pranks, it still is, its mountain girl.
SM (02:27:12):
Yes-yes. And then I-
RS (02:27:14):
Very sweet person. Lived in Ballenas for many years, which was another counter cultural, it is on the Pacific Ocean. Incredibly beautiful, very isolated. You have to drive over Mountain [inaudible] here in Marin County to get there.
SM (02:27:31):
I think Charles-
RS (02:27:32):
Go ahead.
SM (02:27:33):
I think Charles wrote a book, something to do with Ballenas Bay too.
RS (02:27:38):
Probably. It is very beautiful, wildlife and all that, but a lot of the, she lived right near there for a long time.
SM (02:27:49):
Wow.
RS (02:27:55):
I really do feel an obligation to preserve as much of this time period as I can.
SM (02:27:57):
I think it is a great thing that you are doing.
RS (02:28:00):
Thank you, Stephen.
SM (02:28:01):
I admire you for doing it and we need more people like you because in the end I think subconsciously you are preserving it, but you are preserving it for others. It is that (19)60s mentality. I know that I have been collecting all my books and all this stuff and I am collecting all these interviews for a reason because I want young people, students, college students and general public, to get a better understanding of the times we lived in and to not have the new Gingrich's of the world and the people condemning an entire era because they do not like the politics or the personalities of the people or the long here. You got to understand the times.
RS (02:28:45):
Cultural warfare, they have a vested interest in the status quo. Just as the seed money, 90 percent of the seed money in the eighties for the partnership with Drug-Free America. You know where that came from? Tobacco companies and the alcohol companies.
SM (02:29:01):
Yep. You are right.
RS (02:29:04):
I wonder why because they did not want any other recreational interest horning in on their market.
SM (02:29:11):
Charles Wright is coming, he is teaching a course at Yale this spring. I found out so I am going to contact the Yale law and hopefully I can get an interview with him. But boy, you cannot even reach him in the Bay Area. He does not even have a website.
RS (02:29:21):
I thought he was in Berkeley.
SM (02:29:21):
Yeah.
RS (02:29:28):
Yeah, I think he is in Berkeley.
SM (02:29:28):
Well, if you ever find out a website for him or an email, let me know because I would like to try to interview him because he did write the Greening of the Merit.
RS (02:29:36):
I can tell you where he did the reading in Berkeley was six months ago at the bookstore.
SM (02:29:40):
Okay.
RS (02:29:42):
It is called Books Incorporated. Fourth Street of Berkeley.
SM (02:29:48):
Fourth Street. Okay, I could give him a call.
RS (02:29:52):
That is where he did his last reading.
SM (02:29:53):
Okay.
RS (02:29:55):
I know you are calling me to write a book and I know this is off the wall, not off the wall, but it is unrelated. I want to get my stuff in display cases somewhere where people can see it, whether it is a library, university, if you could keep me in mind, I am not looking to make any money, that would be nice, but nobody has money to pay for that kind of stuff.
SM (02:30:15):
Well, the connections that I have are only with three. I have left where I used to work, so I am done with them. I have worked there 22 years. But my alma maters, I am Ohio State, Binghamton University, and then Cazenovia, so I do have links with all of them.
RS (02:30:34):
You happen to see an opportunity where I could get my stuff in display cases or on a wall somewhere for an exhibit, I would be very-
SM (02:30:42):
I will, yep.
RS (02:30:44):
Something needs to be seen instead of being in archival boxes in my closet, Stephen.
SM (02:30:49):
Yep. Let me talk to a few people. There might even be a chance that, I am not sure, maybe at Binghamton and Seattle, Ohio State, I was a grad student there. All of my professors are gone, but I do believe there is a professor in the history department there who is a (19)60s guy, and I mean he is younger than a Boomer. Well, he is a young Boomer, but he is not, he was not old enough to be around when all this other stuff was happening. So, there is a good person there at Ohio State, but Binghamton's still the school it was when I was there, back in-
RS (02:31:30):
Let me think. I can tell you one final anecdote before you get off the bus. But that is another quote I should have given you. You are on the bus or you are off the bus.
SM (02:31:41):
Yes. Very good.
RS (02:31:44):
It is true.
SM (02:31:44):
Yeah. Definitely true.
RS (02:31:46):
You are off the bus.
SM (02:31:48):
Well, do you talk to Paul at all?
RS (02:31:52):
You send the emails constantly. I do not talk that much but we said we are in constant contact.
SM (02:31:58):
Good. Yeah. I just sent him a response to his Facebook message about, I thought it was the [inaudible] thing. Tell him I said hi. Tell him and Nancy I said hi.
RS (02:32:09):
He said he is getting off Facebook because there is just 5,000 friends he is never met.
SM (02:32:26):
I think what he is going to do, he is staying on Facebook, but he is going to cut the number down. I think that is what it is.
RS (02:32:26):
Well Saturday he told me he is getting off it, but I do not know. He could change his mind, but I am so happy to speak with you. It is been a pleasure.
SM (02:32:36):
It has been a pleasure here too.
RS (02:32:37):
Wish you a great deal of luck with your book, you are doing such a good thing.
SM (02:32:41):
Well, thank you very much. People like you and Paul and all the people that I have interviewed, I love that year that I grew up in, I obviously you do too. I feel fortunate that I was alive.
RS (02:32:55):
Well, I never left.
SM (02:32:56):
That is good.
RS (02:32:58):
Well, I will let you on the one final thing. Kesey came to the San Francisco area for a book tour. They drove the bus. This was not the original bus, but a new version of the bus from Oregon here. Outside the books in store at Hay Street, I went in, it was Kesey and a few other people, smoked a joint on the bus with Kesey. How about this? Oh, and then he tested a bottle of wine and he says before he drank, "it has lithium in it." Oh no. Hey, it could have been [inaudible 02:33:35]. Anyway, I am not going to regal you with stories, but I have been around as they say, and I have paid my dues and I have counter cultural Street cred.
SM (02:33:49):
Great.
RS (02:33:50):
Thanks Steve.
SM (02:33:50):
Thanks, you have a great day. Happy holidays to you.
RS (02:33:54):
Take care, Steve.
SM (02:33:54):
You bet, bye.
RS (02:33:55):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Rick Synchef
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Synchef, Rick ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews
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Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-12-15
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175c
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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153:58
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-12-22
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ellis Cose
Language
English
Biographical Text
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Sound
Interview Format
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6979,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Verdana"}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; divisions; Healing; Vietnam War; Generations; Segregation; Media; Racial conflict; Riot, Journalist; Inner-city school; African American; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Criminal justice system; Jim Crow."}">Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; divisions; Healing; Vietnam War; Generations; Segregation; Media; Racial conflict; Riot, Journalist; Inner-city school; African American; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Criminal justice system; Jim Crow.</span>
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178:08
Subject LCSH
African American editors; African American Authors; Cose, Ellis--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ellis Cose
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 22 December 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:05):
Testing one, two. One of the questions that I have asked everybody in the interview process, I normally ask it toward the end of the interview, but I am going to ask it in the beginning this time, is that do you believe, as a boomer, that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s, the intense divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the Vietnam War and against it? I ask this question because I took a group of students to see Edmond Muskie in 1995, and we asked that same question to him, and the students felt that he was going to respond based on what happened at the convention in (19)68. And, of course, (19)68 was an unbelievable year with a lot of tragedy. And so, they thought he was going to talk about the 1968 conventions and the tremendous divisions in the country. I will let you know what he said, but what are your thoughts?
EC (00:01:18):
Well, I guess my thought is that I am not sure that I agree the whole concept of healing to begin with. I think that we are all shaped by our times in a huge way. We are shaped by the things that are important to us in a huge way. And if by healing we mean that as we approach old age, we resolve those issues and we agree about those conflicts and we reach a state of harmony with one another, I am not sure that that happened. I think that we have certainly put the Vietnam War collectively as a nation behind us, and I think that the emotions that were invested in that once upon the time are not nearly what they were, even among people who were directly involved with exception here or there. I also think that if we look at the question of race, clearly, we have come a huge distance in this country when it comes to the ability of white to see African Americans as [inaudible] beings. Though, interestingly enough, I mean, I just finished turning in the manuscript for a book that looks at generations, including the boomers, those who are treat boomers, the silence, so calls and also the millennials. And one thing that is very clear to me is that in terms of how capable different generations of races are of seeing each other as human beings, a lot of that has to do with the generation in which they were shaped. Not so much with the conflict of the generations, but just the ethos of a particular generation. People who grew up in segregated setting have an awfully difficult time getting beyond that, it is not a question of healing, it is just that their entire experience growing up was of believing that people were destined to be separate. People who came up right after segregation have a different way of looking at things, but they were still raised in society where it was a big deal for blacks and whites to marry each other for blacks and whites, to be close friends with one another. And those people in large measure never get to a point where they get beyond that. It is not a question for me of conflicts, it is not an issue of, " I was a segregationist or an integrationist," and therefore we heal somehow, there is a language of healing, and I am very familiar with it. I hear it a lot. There are different groups which come together to do what they call healing. That whole idea implies that once upon a time people were whole. Somehow in the course of event, they develop a wound and then they are going to go and somehow heal this wound. I just think it misconstrues human relationship. So I guess my answer to that is that yes, I think that to some extent we get over the conflicts of the past, but I just do not really accept the language of healing that...
SM (00:04:50):
Yeah, when Senator Musky responded, the students again that came with me, none of them were alive during the Vietnam War. They had all seen these on videos and so forth, and they were surprised that Senator Musky did not even comment on the (19)60s or anything to do with (19)68. He basically commented that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race, and that he went into detail talking about it. And another thing too, when you think of healing, a lot of people from the Vietnam War think of Kim Phuc because she has come, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War. I interviewed her and the whole interview with her was, she is a very forgiving and healing person, and we must move on. And one other comment before getting the next question is when I interviewed the late Gaylord Nelson at his office at the Wilderness Society, I knew him quite well. And he said, he was struck by the question, he says, nobody is walking around Washington DC talking about not healing from the Vietnam War or the divisions that took place at that time. They do not wear it on their sleeve, but he said it is permanently in the body politic. And that is where the impact really is in the politics itself. Just a little side light of this question now, do you feel that the Vietnam Memorial itself has helped the nation heal?
EC (00:06:17):
Well, it runs into the same issue. I do not believe in this concept of healing. I just do not. I mean, think it is great, and I think it has acknowledged the contributions of people who through no fault of their own, got involved in the conflict that the nation collectively ended up repudiating. And so I think that is a good thing. But I think healing is almost clinical therapeutic concept that does not really apply to what happens in the context of a national conflicts, except for people who were very much on the front lines of those and did suffer some sort of clinical result as a consequence of that. And in those cases, I think it goes individual to individual. Some individuals are capable of healing, some are not. But I do not think that nation heal in that way. I think that is something that individuals do within themselves.
SM (00:07:23):
I have done a lot of reading on your background. You have got your website's great, by the way.
EC (00:07:26):
Thank you.
SM (00:07:27):
I think you have a great website and there is some great biographies of you, just small biographies of your background and your books and the themes of your books, and certainly your growing up years. But I always ask this because the people that are going to be reading these interviews will not have read your books and will certainly will hope they will after the interviews. But how did you become who you are? What was it like growing up in Chicago as a teenager? What were your college years? Was there activism on your campus when you were an undergraduate student? And were you involved in any of the organizations at your college?
EC (00:08:11):
I came to writing for a very simple reason, and then I have written about this before. But basically the reason I became a writer was because of riots in my community. I came up on the west side of Chicago, and I was a kid in high school when Martin Luther King was fascinated in 1968. And my community literally went up in flames. And the same thing had happened to that same community on the west side of Chicago in 1966. It went up in flames in that instance because of a police conflict, which is actually what led a lot to the riot of the (19)60s of a conflict between a citizen and the cops. And that caused an uprising. It took indeed, of course, it came just the King. But in both instances, there were fires, there were tanked, the community, and there was pretty significant violence. And as a kid, we were watching that and then reading the press reports at the time, I realized that the press reports that I was reading about bore no resemblance community about my community, bore no resemblance to community that I was living in. And this gets, actually into your previous question about healing. And my point about generation, if we go back to the late (19)60s, this was the time when the major newspapers, firstly had no black reporters at all. There were an exceptions here and there, but the so-called major media simply saw no reason back then to hire blacks. And so when they covered something like a racial conflict or a riot, they covered it as if they were covering a third world community they did not understand, full of people who were irrational and who were not full human being. And you can see this very clearly in any of the coverage of those days, if you go back and read some of the accounts, the riots from back then. And I made the decision, even though I was not terribly interested initially in being a writer, that someone needed to write about these kinds of things that had some understanding of these communities. And it happened to coincide with an ongoing conflict I had was with an English teacher over doing assignments because I was a bright kid and the assignments in my way of thinking or mind numbingly stupid. I got her to agree that my assignment would be to write a paper on riot and why they occur in the communities [inaudible] have them. And she ended up agreeing to this for my assignment for English for that year. And for the first time, I got excited about writing and ended up turning in a manuscript of somewhere between 130 and 200 pages as I recall, which she received, took home, read, came back and told me, I am going to give you an A for the course, but I am not really capable of grading this, judging this, you need to send it to a professional." I had no idea what a professional writer was really. She advised me to send it to Gwendolyn Brooks. Because Gwendolyn Brooks was a poor [inaudible] Illinois. Gwendolyn Brooks read it, got in touch with me, essentially told me I needed to think about becoming a writer as the profession. And that launched me into becoming a writer. I also happened to get a job as a columnist for the Chicago Sun Time when, well, when I was 18 as a columnist for their school supplement publication, but I was 19, became a columnist for their actual newspaper. So all of that obviously influenced heavily my decision to become a journalist, to become a writer.
SM (00:12:40):
Was that experience in Chicago when you were young, how did that affect your psyche? You were having the experience of someone who was saying you were a really good writer. Can you hold on a second? My cell phones? Hold on one second. Hold on one second. Hello? Yes-yes. No-no-no-no. I am ready to head off. Yeah, well, I cannot get any over there any earlier though. Okay. Okay. Oh, just get me a couple hamburgers. That is it. Okay. Yep, that is it. I am actually on the phone with my landlord. Upper window. Okay. All right. Thanks, Jim. Bye. Ellis, you still there?
EC (00:14:06):
Yes.
SM (00:14:06):
My brother has gone because he is getting an eye appointment today. That is why I am leaving early.
EC (00:14:13):
Well, you asking.
SM (00:14:13):
Yeah, I was asking about the psyche.
EC (00:14:14):
Psyche.
SM (00:14:15):
What was it about you personally that even though these very terrible things were happening in this country, that you felt within yourself that you were going to be a success as a writer? It was a kind of, nothing was going to stop you.
EC (00:14:31):
Well, I never thought, even as a very, very young man, that I was not going to be a success at whatever it was that I decided to do. Why did I feel that way? Well, it certainly was not the result of coming up in the projects. There were not a whole lot of folks who were particular successes in the projects. But I think it was my psychology, and my psychology was shaped, I am sure by some measure, by the fact that I knew I was a very bright kid. Despite the fact that I went to terrible inner-city schools, which had all the terrible things happening to them that you read about, and that the teachers, at least many of them were very uninterested in teaching much of anything. And despite the fact that the schools at least found that I went to did not but they were fairly violent. I was always acknowledged as a bright kid. I always tested off the charts. When time came for me to go to high school, I got into a high school out of my neighborhood, which was when high school considered, it was at the time the fitted the best public school in the city because I tested well and always tested well. And so I knew I was a bright kid, and so I knew I had potential, at least mental potential. I also knew that I was a hard worker. So despite the fact that there were lots of messages that came to kids in my community here, "You are never going to be anything. You are going to be a failure. You are never going to amount too much in life." I just found it very easy to tune that out because it is, from my perspective has just been a part of me.
SM (00:16:31):
I was talking at some of the major events when you were young, even very young. How did the following event shape your consciousness as a young African-American teenager and young adult, and obviously some of these things, you were born in (19)51, so you were very young, nine or 10, I am not sure if you were aware of all of them, but as you aged, I broke down in some of these events. You were 12, 13, 14, 18, 20. But I am just going to list some of the key events that in the civil rights movement that were part of that 20-year period, and just any brief comment you can and how important you felt it was not only for you personally, but for our nation. The Montgomery Bus Boycott.
EC (00:17:21):
Well, the Montgomery Bus boycott. I was barrel as an infant pretty much at that point. I read about it as an adult or as a young man I suppose. But we are talking in about (19)50s now. I would have been three or four years old. And so in terms of my having any consciousness of that happening at the time, I had absolutely none. I was just way too young for that.
SM (00:17:51):
And that would include also the Brown versus Board of Education decision, and-
EC (00:17:54):
Well, same thing.
SM (00:17:55):
Little Rock Nine.
EC (00:17:55):
Yeah. I was a bit older when Little Rock Nine occurred, of course, but still, I was the age of six, seven, eight, nine, not really consistently reading the newspaper at that time. We would probably have to get out of the (19)50s.
SM (00:18:16):
Yeah, they-
EC (00:18:17):
Get to a point where I would be aware of the conflict that is swirled around the whole issue of civil rights.
SM (00:18:26):
The other ones are when you were 13 and up, and that is the March on Washington (19)63, Freedom Summer in (19)64. And certainly the terrible tragedy of Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman being killed. Were you aware of those events as of 13, 14-year-old?
EC (00:18:45):
That is interesting. I am sure I was aware in some vague way, and clearly the March Washington was a huge event and I would have been, what? 12 at the time that took place. I am sure I was aware of it, but looking back, I cannot say I have a cautious memory of what I was thinking at that time. I am certain I was not aware of. I am certain it was part of a lot of things I was beginning to be aware of that were happening around me. I remember realizing somewhere along the way, or at least concluding somewhere along the way, that the South was a very ugly place full of ugly, bigoted people. And I think really that was an opinion that was shaped by the news event at the time. But I cannot say if you go incident by incident, I did not know anybody who went down to Washington, yeah for the march on Washington. I did not know anybody who was involved with the with freedom rights, I mean, was a poor kid from a poor community on the west side of Chicago. The people I know were not doing those things. They were basically just trying to make it. And so I cannot say that any of those events shaped me in the way that they would have shaped me if I was five or 10 years older. I cannot say that any of those had a huge impression on me. The first discreet event of the (19)60s that I can remember making a huge impression on me other than the riots themselves, which had a huge impact on me because that was my community that was being torn apart. Other than that, the first event of the (19)60s was as you can say really, really shook me was Martin Luther King's assassination.
SM (00:20:47):
Yeah, that is on my-
EC (00:20:47):
- [inaudible] of (19)68.
SM (00:20:52):
And certainly MLK's assassination, certainly the over representation of African Americans who served in the Vietnam War was well documented at that time. And then Dr. King's Vietnam speech back in 1967, and then of course, the rise of the Black Panthers. Your thoughts on those?
EC (00:21:16):
Well, the Black Panthers I was aware of, and because they were in the west side of Chicago that was and my introduction to them was that all of a sudden these people appeared. And again, I do not remember exactly what level of how intimate my knowledge was, but I do remember being told, I think by friends of mine, that there was this conflict between the gangs on the south side and what I was coming, the big gang on the south side was something called August of the Black Peace Stone Nation, which is started off as, there is a Blackstone Rangers. And this may be apocryphal or may not be, but I do. But I do remember being told as a teenager that the Black Panthers were planning to set up shop on the South side, and that the Black Peace Stone Nation told them, no, that was their turf, that was their territory, and they were not going to make way for another gang. So I remember that dispute, at least as I understood it at the time, having taken place. And the rise of the Black Panthers happened to coincide with a time when I was starting college. And so I was very much aware of them by that time. And there were people I knew who had links to the Black Panthers, and so I was aware of them. I admired them in a certain way. I felt they certainly dressed again pretty cool, their leather jackets and whatnot. I liked their attitude in terms of their being a standup group who were going to not take much of anything from anybody. I remember when we're talking about early college years by this point, and at that point, I was very much aware of all these things that were going on. And I do remember of reading Eldridge Cleavers. Was it Soul on Ice?
SM (00:23:30):
Yep. Soul on Ice.
EC (00:23:32):
Somewhere back then. And being disappointed in Eldridge Cleaver, because I realized that not only was he a rapist, which I knew that he was a rapist, but I had assumed he had sufficient political consciousness that he had transcended that. And at some point, Soul on Ice becomes a defend of rape as a political act, which I thought was just absurd. So reading that affected the way that I felt about the Panthers, I had no respect for him after reading that and began to think maybe the Panthers were not this noble organization that I had assumed they were.
SM (00:24:23):
What is amazing about the Black Panthers, and when I have talked about and interviewed other people, they say, you are dealing with some major personalities here that are different. You have got Elders Cleaver, you have got Kathleen Cleaver, you have got Bobby Seal, you have got Huey Newton, you have got Stokely Carmichael, you have got H. Rep Brown. You have got, I got Elaine Brown.
EC (00:24:45):
Yeah, Elaine-
SM (00:24:46):
Dave Hilliard. And you see, you are dealing with a lot of different-
EC (00:24:49):
I am not sure Stokely Carmichael was, there were actually a number of the Panthers. Certainly it was not temporary.
SM (00:24:57):
Right. I think he did become a panther.
EC (00:24:58):
It is possible. You obviously studying this, I am not, but I do not remember him being very prominent with the Panthers because he became prominent as another kind of character. But yeah, and certainly Huey Newton was a totally different character than Eldridge Cleaver mean, then they ended up having a huge dispute at the end of the day. And by this time, we were getting into the years. So I was a journalist, and so I have never really covered the Panthers as a story, but I did know some of the characters. At one point, I interviewed Bobby Seal at another point, Kathleen Cleaver I interviewed. So I knew some of these people were at least in passing as a journalist and had impressions of them and was certainly around at the time when the big split occurred between the so-called East Coast and West Coast Panthers, and the Eldridge faction and the Huey Newton faction. And remember, they were saying very ugly things about one another. So that was also part of my reassessment of who and what the Panthers were. But I remember initially just being one, attracted to them and thinking that they were very interesting. Two, respecting the fact they were willing to stand up to police violence, things of that nature. Three, respecting the fact that they were not at this time a sort of black militancy. They were a group that was not racist in the sense that they were willing to embrace various races as long as you agree with their program. But three, think that there were some individuals who were truly screwed up, who were involved with them. And Eldridge Cleavers being first on that list of people who thought were totally screwed up clearly if the history of Houston Newton, there was a history of somebody who was not terribly well adjusted either, and who did all kinds of things. So at the end of the day, I had a mixed assessment of the Black Panthers, but I was certainly aware by that time being a 16, 17, 18, 19, when they were in their heyday, being very much aware of them, there was a sense among a lot of people, and it was, that included, I passaged, but a whole lot of folks who were activists at that time. There was a sense that we were in throes of revolution, that something huge was on the verge of happening in the United States, that we were about to overthrow one system and have it replaced by another. And I remember lots of people getting swept up in that sense. I was not one of them. I just never thought that [inaudible] analysis made a whole lot of sense. It was on target, but I certainly recall it.
SM (00:28:19):
Well, one of the things that also was taking place at this time was what was happening in the prisons. We all know what happened with Angela Davis and the murder, I guess at George Jackson in San Quentin. So that was a big issue. I know on college campuses, we were talking about that all the time. And because when I was in graduate school, I actually went to Mansfield Reformatory and was there for two semesters and could not believe how prisoners are being treated. It was a maximum-security facility in Ohio.
EC (00:28:51):
Well, there were a lot of issues. There were not simply the prisons, it was the politicization in a way, and then the incarceration of people. Or in effect political crime. And it was (19)69. I recall very clearly when you had the murders of Mark Clark, that Hampton in Chicago and was at that point, I was very active in those student politics and was one of the leaders of the protests that we had at the University of Illinois Chicago at the time, which stem from that shooting. Which seems to us then, and actually being now looking back, have been a political assassination. So there was a lot of, among folks I knew, including myself, a lot of anger and outrage and those kinds of things happening. And certainly as we look back, we did not know through the extent of the time how involved the FBI was in monitoring these groups and provocateur times in these groups and even...
EC (00:30:03):
... and been a provocateur at times in these groups. And even, obviously, been a provocateur in times of his relationship with Martin Luther King Jr. All of that was going on. So it was much broader than just prisons I think. It was the youth of the arms of the criminal justice system to attempt to repress this movement in many respects. And I remember being aware of that. I remember being angry about that. I think I was much less aware of what was going on in prisons in general.
SM (00:30:41):
I know that Attica was one of the biggest events. I think it was in (19)71. And of course, that was a tragedy from the get-go, and that was a follow-up to what was happening at San Quentin with Angela Davis and so forth with George Jackson. But I find it interesting that there is a book out now, and you have probably written about this many times, about the fact that the Jim Crow of 2010 is actually what is happening with the African-American male in our prisons.
EC (00:31:15):
Well, I do not accept the term because I think Jim Crow was very different than what is happening with prisons. But I do think that is a national tragedy. And I do think that, in many ways, our criminal justice system is racialized. Why do not I think it is Jim Crow? Because Jim Crow, you had everybody who was black in a community who was made to act in a certain way because of laws that mandated made certain behaviors. That is not what is happening with the prisons. But I think we do have a huge percentage issue now of African-American males, and also a very large percentage of Latino males for that matter, whose life options are totally destroyed having to do with their involvement in the criminal justice system. So I think it is criminal. But I think that one of the problems with just the way that people in general tend to look at things is that we tend to want to always compare one event to another event that we are familiar with as if they are the same thing. I think that the over incarceration of people of color and people in general in this country is a national tragedy. I do not think it is Jim Crow, and I do not think it particularly adds to the analysis to call it Jim Crow.
SM (00:32:41):
Right. You are aware of that book that is out now?
EC (00:32:47):
Yes.
SM (00:32:47):
Yeah. It is...
EC (00:32:47):
[inaudible] it is fascinating, yeah.
SM (00:32:49):
Yeah. It is doing quite well.
EC (00:32:50):
Yeah.
SM (00:32:50):
You are a gifted writer, and you already mentioned the fact that [inaudible] you read when you were in college. What are the books and writers who influenced you as a young man? Not only as a journalist, but as a person who covered some of these issues in the United States? Did you read James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison?
EC (00:33:13):
Well, you named the two that had the most impact on me when I was coming up and discovering my voice as a writer. I was a big admirer of Baldwin in particular. I mean, he wrote clearly more than Ellison did, but I was a huge admirer of his and read everything of his I could find. And I remember it was probably The Fire Next Time, I think may be the first thing of his that I read, which explained what was going on in the streets. And in a way that, for the first time, made sense to me. Certainly, a Black Boy... Not a Black Boy, a Native Son rather. When I read that, I was just blown away by how beautiful of a writer Ralph Ellison was. By his ability to sort of capture that story, that voice, that time. So both of those were... I mean, I also in that era remember being very impressed by Hermann Hesse, who I just thought was a very interesting writer. But it was really Baldwin was number one. So much so that initially I remember thinking that maybe I did not need to go to college because Baldwin did not go to college. And he did very well as a writer, so why should I waste my time going to college. I remember thinking about that at the time.
SM (00:34:50):
Did you ever have a chance to read Harry Edwards' book, Black Students?
EC (00:34:55):
I do not think I have read that book, no.
SM (00:34:59):
Yeah, because that was very popular back in (19)71. Of course, Harry's the one that encouraged the students-
EC (00:35:08):
[inaudible] I know who he is. But I do not remember reading that book, so I do not think it was from the books that I read.
SM (00:35:09):
Yeah. The other ones were, well, I do not know if [inaudible] was Michael Harrington, The Other America.
EC (00:35:15):
Oh, yeah. No, I read that at some point, but I cannot say that it was a huge...
SM (00:35:22):
Of course.
EC (00:35:22):
... an influence on me in terms of journalism or any other way. I just thought that he was doing important work, and was one of those things that I read.
SM (00:35:32):
The other one that seemed to have an influence on some boomers is LeRoi Jones because he was a beat writer and...
EC (00:35:40):
I mean, I have read LeRoi Jones and I read some of his things-
SM (00:35:43):
Amiri Baraka.
EC (00:35:45):
I mean, for my taste, at the time at least, he was a bit more avant-garde than I was. And he just did not grab me in the same way. And then I remember also... Yeah, so I just did not have the same sense of Jones or Amiri Baraka as he later became. I mean, I was influenced by some of the Chicago set of writers. Don Lee, who later became Haki Madhubuti, I remember being impressed by. And some of the other writers who I got to know in Chicago as a young man. But as I said, I mean, for me by far in terms of convincing me that I could become a writer, I think it was Baldwin. I mean, and reading him that, okay, this guy is doing something I think I can do.
SM (00:36:42):
Do you like the term boomer?
EC (00:36:47):
I mean, it is obviously a term that is been coined and accepted widely for people in a certain demographic, so I do not have a particular problem with it, but yeah.
SM (00:37:01):
What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear someone talk about the boomer generation?
EC (00:37:07):
I do not think that certain traits come to my mind. What comes to mind is the post-World War II generation and the 20 to 25 years beyond that. And just because of the fact that so many of these people peaked... Well, peaked is not the right word, but came of age in the (19)60s and in that era. It certainly evokes thoughts of the (19)60s and the cultural transformation in the country that occurred then.
SM (00:37:46):
The next few questions deal with the Moynihan Report from (19)65. And then recently, Rich Lowry from the...
EC (00:37:57):
The New York Times.
SM (00:38:00):
Yeah, the National Review commented on, actually, only three months ago on the Moynihan Report. But I want this in the record, so if you would bear with me, I just want to read this and get your comments on it. And that is that when the Moynihan Report came out, these are very important things it says here. "In the decade they began with school desegregations, decision of the Supreme Court, and ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64. The demand of Negro Americans for full recognition of their civil rights was finally met. In this new period, the expectations of Negro Americans will go beyond civil rights. Being Americans, they will now expect that in the near future equal opportunities for them as a group will produce roughly equal results as compared with other groups. This is not going to happen, nor will it happen for generations to come unless a new and special effort is made." And there were two reasons that Moynihan wrote for putting this report together. First, the racist virus in the American bloodstream still afflicts us in (19)65. And then second, three centuries of sometimes unimaginable mistreatment have taken their toll on the Negro people. Then that says here what is an interesting is the report that Lowry says that Moynihan was basically shut out. At some point, the report was being listened to, but then as the war in Vietnam was raging on and on and there were disagreements over policy and so forth, the Moynihan Report went to the back burner. And this is what I would like you to respond to from the original report, if that was written by Moynihan. "The gap between Negro and most other groups in American society is widening. Is that the Negro family and the urban ghettos is crumbling. A middle class group has managed to save itself, but for vast numbers of unskilled, poorly educated city working class, the fabric of conventional social relationships has all but disintegrated. So long as this situation persists, the cycle of poverty and disadvantage will continue to repeat itself." And then he ends in this section by saying, "A national effort is required that will give unity of purpose to the many activities of the federal government in this area directed to a new kind of national goal, the establishment of a stable negro family structure. This would be a new departure for federal policy. But almost certainly offers the only possibility of resolving in our time what is after all the nation's oldest, and most intransigent, and now its most dangerous social problem." And then he ends by saying, "What Gunnar Myrdal said in An American Dilemma remains true today. America's free to choose whether the Negro shall remain her liability or become her opportunity." And-
EC (00:41:12):
I mean, I think what is interesting about the Moynihan Report, there are two things. I mean, one is that it became this political hot potato in the sense that progressive social scientists, African-American activists, and other people attacked it because they thought it was blaming the victim. They thought it was an attack and some sort of... And he used the word mythology in it, though you did not read that part. They thought it was an attack on the black community just because of the language that he used because [inaudible] the things that he described. I mean, I think the other thing that is interesting is that the trends that he was worried about. Two things about those. I mean, one is his idea of the rate of children being born out of wedlock, et cetera. If you look at the numbers he was reporting at the time for African-Americans, they are pretty close to what the numbers are for white now. So what he was really giving voice too, even though he did not know it himself, was an emerging trend in society, not just in African-American communities. But what's also interesting about that report is that in some ways it was prescient. I mean, he did in fact put his finger on some real problems. And I think that because of the language that he used, because of the times that he wrote this report in. Having less to do actually with the Vietnam War, I suspect, than with domestic politics. The message was never really paid attention to. I am not sure if it had been paid attention to, that the tools were in place to do anything about it at any rate. But I think if you set aside just some of the rhetoric of the time, which is difficult to do, and just look at what he was trying to do, it was actually an impressive work of scholarship.
SM (00:43:11):
Yeah, he wrote that. It is interesting. I was reading background. He was sitting downstairs and he did it on a typewriter.
EC (00:43:21):
Well, everybody wrote on a typewriter back then.
SM (00:43:21):
Yeah. And only 100 of the reports actually were ever handed out. It was not widely distributed. This is how Lowry, Lowry wrote this three months ago, and this is his commentary on what he considers the failure of the African-American community. He said, "Moynihan had talked about and he believed that the richest inheritance any child can have is a stable, loving, disciplined family life. He wanted to create a sense of urgency about the fact that black children were disproportionately denied this inheritance." And then the black out of wedlock births had increased from 18 percent in 1950 to 22, 23.6 percent in (19)63. And he saw that as a weakness of the family structure. And he also linked it up as unemployment fell, out of wedlock births continued to rise, illegitimacy had developed a dynamic of its own. Then the Johnson administration-
EC (00:44:17):
Right, right. So what is Lowry's bottom line?
SM (00:44:20):
The bottom line is that he feels that the African-American family has... The illegitimacy rate is skyrocketing today in America. He says here, "The black out of wedlock birth rate is-"
EC (00:44:35):
I mean, it means two things. I mean, one, just as a matter of statistics, clearly, we have had a huge rise in the out of wedlock births. Particularly in the black community, but also in the white community. I mean, my problem with an analysis from someone like Lowry is [inaudible]. First of all, he is an ideologue. So I do not take anything [inaudible] someone like that says seriously because he is an ideologue trying to make an ideological point. So as a scholar, I just have no respect for that. But it is true that even ideologues make isolated facts that are true. And it is true that there has been a huge increase in out of wedlock births. That is occurred for a whole set of reasons. But the problem of the right-wing ideological analysis, the problem I have with that, aside from the fact that it is based in ideology, which means that it is not a thoughtful analysis. Is essentially that it comes from a place where people think there is a white community and a black community that are totally separate from one another, that have no impact on one another. And that there are these trends that spring up just out of the blue that take place in this so-called different black community. And that is just absurd. We have in America, we have trends that occur and they are certainly more prominent in poor communities and communities of color in some cases, in other communities in other cases. But something that begins with an idea that the black community did this, the black community did that, the black community ought to do this, is so racist and stupid that it is not worth responding to.
SM (00:46:28):
Yeah. It is interesting because of the right wing or the conservatives have also said that talking about the entire generation, all the boomer generation, the breakdown of the American society, most of our problems today center around the generation that came of age after World War II in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The drug-
EC (00:46:49):
Well, again, I mean, I am not terribly inclined to engage stupid analysis. Because at the end of the day, this is just stupid stuff. It comes out of ideologues who sort of have some idea that they could go back to some kind of society they imagined happened. Or what would have occurred if there had not been the so-called cultural revolution. That is just dumb.
SM (00:47:15):
Why do you feel that the right or conservatives continue today to always, what I call a... There is a backlash. The constant backlash against any progress that was seen to be made in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It is ever present. You hear it today on Fox constantly.
EC (00:47:38):
I think people are... And you have to ask these people too.
SM (00:47:43):
And I have.
EC (00:47:45):
And I doubt that they really know because I doubt they have that ability to reflect on their own psychology that clearly. But my suspicion is that you have a lot of people who were in effect very comfortable with the way that things used to be. And do not like the fact that they got shaken up. And in addition to that, you have a lot of people who have a point of ideology, do not like the fact that government got into the role of trying to help poor people. That government got into the business of trying to integrate society. That government got into the business of doing things that they would prefer the government have not done. And I think a lot of it stems from there. I mean, I think that Barack Obama is right when he makes the analysis that there are a lot of people still fighting the war, so the 1960s. But that sort of coincides with my point, which is that we are shaped by the era that in which we were raised. And I think that a lot of folks who came of age at a certain time, they have a certain analysis of that and they just did not like what was happening to their society. And I think you see echoes of that in a sense in the Tea Party movement now where their whole model is we are going to take back America. Well, take it back to what? Thing is there is never a clear answer about that.
SM (00:49:19):
Yes. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed-
EC (00:49:25):
[inaudible]
SM (00:49:25):
What was the watershed moment of that whole era?
EC (00:49:32):
I think there were lots of moments there. And again, and not to be difficult, but I am just not sure that I can frame it that way. I mean, there were fairly lots of things that happened. I mean, there was the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The decision of Johnson to resign. The Black Sunday event in Selma, the passage of the Voting Rights, the Civil Rights Act. The so-called Summer of Love. I mean, there were all these huge events that took place in the (19)60s. And then there were the riots. There was the Watts riots in (19)65. There were the huge riots that broke out in the wake of the assassination of King. There was the [inaudible] commission and his report, which for the first time ever pointed at white racism as a cause of a problem of a serious nature in the black community. You have a government entity sort of making that analysis. I am not sure, and I know historians love to do this and journalists love to do this, love to pick one point and one thing and say it was this, this, this and that. There were lots of things. But I think they also built on things that happened in the (19)60s. I mean, you would not have had the segregation banish we had in the (19)60s had it not been for the decision in (19)54 with Brown v. Board. You would not have had that if you had not had the cases that were originally brought in... that were the predecessor cases they had brought in the (19)40s. So there is a lot of stuff sort of leading into the (19)60s. And there was a, in that sense, sort of continuum. I think they just sort of peaked in the (19)60s in some way. And you had what seemed to be just one huge change after another taking place, which hit people in a huge way. And dependent upon what your interests were at the time, I think the (19)60s event that shook you is different. I mean, for some people it is obviously a lot of the stuff around the Vietnam War. For other people, it is a lot of stuff around civil rights. For other people, it is a lot of stuff around the rise of the hippies and the Summer of Love and things that went on of that nature. I think it just depends. I do not think there is an answer for that that sort of applies to everything and everybody.
SM (00:52:22):
Do you feel the Beats had any role at all in the anti-authoritarian attitudes that many boomers had when they started going to high school and college in the (19)60s? Because the Beats were members of the Silent Generation. And their writings, even though they were not large in number, their books were well read and they were anti-authoritarian in just about every way.
EC (00:52:50):
Well, I mean, there were certainly the Beats, the hipsters. I mean, they were certainly a sort of precursor to the hippies. And did they create this set of movements in the (19)60s? No, I do not think so. I mean, I think the movements of the (19)60s were [inaudible]. I mean, I think they gave some kind of intellectual context for them. I mean, I do not think what happened was that you had a generation that all of a sudden became anti-establishment and then started acting out. I think you had huge events that had an impact on people. I mean, you did have these huge battles taking place over civil rights. You did have the Vietnam War, which was directly affecting lots of young men who were not all that crazy about going to fight in a war in a country that they had no problem with. You also had the introduction of birth control, at least a new kind of birth control. And therefore a sort of sense of sexual liberation that had not existed before. So all of these things sort of took place. And I think that at the end of the day had more impact than the published writings of a few writers.
SM (00:54:34):
I think you have already answered my next question too because it was really getting into some of the things that well-known people had said. Quotes that are linked to people. I will mention these. Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." John Kennedy, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Robert Kennedy, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Then you have the, "We shall overcome," which was the civil rights feelings of the South. And you had the Timothy Leary, "Tune on, turn on, dropout," kind of attitude. And then you had what Muhammad Ali said, which I think was a very important influence on many, many boomers when he said, "I am not going to Vietnam to kill little yellow babies when we are not taking care of little black babies at home." And then Bobby Muller, when he came back from Vietnam saying, "I learned that America is not always the good guy." So would you say that all these kinds of quotes are really... Just to what you were saying, it is part of our very being. They influenced a lot of different people in different ways.
EC (00:55:49):
Well, I mean, I think the quotes came out of the times. I do not think the times came out of the quote is basically my point. I think the reason these quotes resonated with people were because you did have a huge war in Vietnam. I mean, obviously, if it had not been, Muhammad Ali would never have said what he said. The reason Malcolm X's quote resonated was because you had a huge battle going on over basic rights for African-Americans at the time. Otherwise, what he said would have made no sense. So I think that that... And the same thing with, "We shall overcome." I mean, I think that these sorts of things stem out of huge sort of social events that were occurring. So as I was saying in an answer to your previous question, I do not think that the words were the things that drove the event. I think the events drove the words.
SM (00:56:50):
Very good. I am going to change my tape here.
EC (00:56:58):
[inaudible] might be a little bit of snow, but I do not think it is going to affect anything serious.
SM (00:57:04):
Could you discuss, this is very important, when you look at college campuses in the 1960s, late (19)60s and certainly early (19)70s, the term Black Power was everywhere. And it was all over the country too. And we saw it. I remember seeing a clip recently, Kathleen Cleaver explaining why she had an afro on a college campus. And it is tremendous, it is only 15 seconds. But what was the purpose of Black Power? What were its goals and the ultimate impact that it had on people at that time? Because it was a little bit beyond what Dr. King and Bayard Rustin were thinking about when they were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. What was Black Power?
EC (00:57:51):
I think, well, Black Power meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But I mean, I think at its essence, it was an articulation of a desire of to take control of their own destiny. To not be reliant on either the goodwill or the bad intention of white Americans. And to strike out an individual... Not individual, but a collective political path that could lead to empowerment of black people. I mean, that in its essence was what the idea of Black Power was about. Now people have very, very different ideas of what that meant. You have the Nation of Islam, the black Muslims, who thought that it basically meant having an independent nation totally separate from White America. You had other folks, some who were involved in movement politics, who thought that what that meant was black people taking charge of all leadership roles and movement activities, and moving white people aside. You had the other folks who thought it meant something else. So I am not sure you can look beyond the general sort of ideas of it, say it meant one thing. But I think what it came out of was this sense of... I think it was very much a generational sense. It came out of this sense that white people basically could not be trusted. And that the destiny of African-America, of African-Americans needed to be an African-American path.
SM (00:59:43):
It's interesting because I was at Ohio State in (19)71 and that was very powerful on our campus. And in the Ohio Union, African-American students and white students were having separate dances, and they could not even go to the section of the union where the dances were. There were a lot of issues there at the time. And some of the students-
SM (01:00:02):
... issues there at the time, and some of the students went off to Linda McKinley High School to get guards for their dances without consulting the campus. What is interesting here is if you look at the study of Kent State University, you do not see any African American students protesting there. You read some of the books on Kent State, and there was a split happening between African American students and white students, particularly in the anti- war movement, that...
EC (01:00:30):
Well, there was not a split that happened.
SM (01:00:30):
Well, so...
EC (01:00:36):
I think that reflected a society that was intensely segregated, where African Americans... And we are still dealing with this. We are still dealing with this. It's not as if, prior to the eruption of the so-called Black Power Movement, you had an integrated society of Blacks and whites and they were doing lots of things together. That was never the case. So, it is hardly surprising that when you had a movement to bring up, they reflected the segregated nature of society. So, of course, we had white leaders; you had Black leaders, you had white activism and Black activism, and even around civil rights. Yes, they did come together and there was a huge effort to form some sort of multiracial coalition. But this, again, goes back to where we began this discussion, which is I think we are very much creatures of what shapes us. There were very few white Americans at that time, and also not that many Black Americans, who came up in anything remotely resembling an integrated setting or integrated society. There was this very strong sense that there were just two communities, and I think for many people, it was just impossible to bridge that gap, even among many people who considered themselves [inaudible].
SM (01:01:59):
I think you are right because when you talk about activism of the (19)60s, you are only talking 5 percent, possibly, of the entire generation of 74 million that were even activists.
EC (01:02:09):
Yeah. And even among the activists, I think they carried a lot of the racial baggage of their generation.
SM (01:02:19):
If you look at the studies, though, of the (19)60s, you see that when the African American students protested the lunch counters in the South, many white students all over the country empathized and protested in various cities that same situation. Then you had a Freedom Summer where quite a few white students went South and risked their lives, and you had the many of them coming back to Berkeley at the free speech movement. So, there was that linkage between...
EC (01:02:50):
No, I am not saying there was not a linkage. I think there had to be a linkage. I mean, my God, you have people fighting for civil rights. How could they not consciously try to make some linkage? But I am saying that despite that, what I would call a real sort of beyond race, post-racial set of conditions never existed even within the movement.
SM (01:03:16):
Good point. Could you describe Boomer Generation now, born between (19)46 and (19)64, the oldest is 64 this year, and the youngest is 49. Could you describe, in your own words, the America of the following periods that Boomers have been alive? Just general comments about the periods, for all Americans and then secondly, were African Americans might think of this period as well, the period 1946 to 1960.
EC (01:03:53):
I guess the question is just too broad for me to get my head around. It's just too broad. I mean, I am not sure what you are looking for.
SM (01:04:03):
Well, when you think of that period in America, (19)46 to (19)60, just a couple of words that to describe it.
EC (01:04:10):
Well, I do not think of that as one period because if you think of (19)46, you are thinking, at least what I am thinking of, is post-war: The nation is still sort of putting itself together after that. You are thinking civil rights is very few people's agenda at that time. You are thinking of an era where, by and large, segregation is accepted as the way of life. If you go and move up into the (19)50s, and then you are obviously talking about an awakening that occurred at some point, driven largely by the events in Montgomery and elsewhere in the South, where all of a sudden, the country begins to question collectively what in the hell they were doing and what should be the status quo? Again, driven by... And your cutoff date was the early (19)60s?
SM (01:05:27):
Yeah. I had the (19)61 to (19)70 period.
EC (01:05:31):
Yeah. I think it was a different period. I think that post-war, and I was not around then, but I have read about that period. I think we were adjusting to being in a post-war situation. There was a certain celebration of having made the world safe for democracy. I think there was a huge unawareness of what was going on in our own backyard. There was a backlash against many of the Black troops who came back and were expecting to be treated as equals or at least hoped they would be, and were relegated immediately to the back of the bus. There were, in some cases, violence against the Black soldiers who had the temerity to demand to be treated as equal human beings. You had just a sense of incomprehension among white Americans that Black folk would be interested or entitled to any treatment other than the sort of treatment that had been meted out for years and years. Then you had, as I said, the awakening of the beginning in the middle (19)50s when there were all these huge protests and the rise of the civil rights movement, when at least thinking Americans, and in this instance, I am thinking of white thinking Americans, had to say, "My, God. Something is wrong here. Let us take a look at this and see if we can do something about that." Then the (19)60s is very different. I mean, being in the (19)60s, you had a country that had been wrestling for some years with the demand for equality, but you also had an international community that was taking interest at that point. That was, in various sectors, condemning the United States for articulating a concept of equality, but yet not being able to live up to that itself.
SM (01:07:54):
Yeah. That period, (19)61 to (19)70 and then (19)71 to (19)80, I guess some people think there is a linkage between those two, that the early (19)70s was basically a continuation of the (19)60s.
EC (01:08:08):
Well, as you probably could surmise from what I have said all along, I think everything is a continuation of something else. My mind does not work that way that it was this discrete little period that was not connected to the period before that. I just do not think history works that way. I do not think people work that way. I think that we are always sort of building on what came before.
SM (01:08:33):
Would you say, though, that when you start getting into the 1980s and Ronald Reagan, that is the period of backlash?
EC (01:08:41):
Well, there were periods of backlash all along the way. I mean, when whites effectively marched out of the Democratic Party after the Johnson years, that was a backlash. That was a huge backlash, certainly against civil rights. I do not think you had any period of struggle where there was not backlash, but certainly I think that by the time Reagan got into office, you had, I guess, a national mandate for a certain bit of politics.
SM (01:09:29):
Yeah. Of course, we talk about the culture wars. We have seen them on university campuses, at least I have seen them my whole life, for over 30 years. That certainly is a quality that defines what America's all about in that period. As a journalist, you mentioned it early on, but have you seen a racism and prejudice during your years in the profession? You told me about the early years when very few African Americans, but now as... And I know Asso Moore real well. I have known Asso for 30 years, and he shared so many things about what happened with him when he came up. But once the African American journalists were a very important part of the scene, you still see the subtleness? Basically, what I am saying, as a journalist, have you seen racism or prejudice during your years in the profession? Just your thoughts on that.
EC (01:10:28):
Well, I think anybody who is honest would have to answer of course you have. But again, that goes back [inaudible] to my personal experience. But I think that Americans have this dopey idea that people are raised with a certain set of beliefs, and they come up holding to these things, and all of a sudden they get enlightenment and, boom, they go from being racist to not racist. That is not any equivalent human being that I know of. I think that if people are brought up and they always keep a lot of the beliefs that people are brought up with unless they are some extraordinary kind of person. So, it is impossible for me, just intellectually to conceive of a profession where Blacks were totally excluded; it was considered natural to do interviews about communities but not interview anybody Black; where the Black community was looked at as some foreign and hostile place; but then, boom, you get the civil rights and all these people suddenly start seeing things totally differently. No, of course not. Has racism become unacceptable in society? Yes, it has. Has it become a much more subtle... Of course it has. Personally, I think things have reached the point where there is really little to be gained by calling people racist because nobody in this country considers themselves racist anymore. Everybody considers themselves enlightened, even if they do not happen to have any Black friends, even if they do not happen to believe that Black people are capable of doing certain things. They still do not think they are racist. So, I think the whole idea of calling people racist does not make a whole lot of sense. But do you see things happen all the time in society that are rooted in people's racial preconceptions? Yes, of course you do, and of course I have.
SM (01:12:35):
It is interesting, Elvis, that the subtleness is the adjective that now describes racism or sexism or homo... There is a subtleness, supposedly, in our society. It is what really Dr. King, if you read his writings, that he feared the most. He feared the fence-sitter he did, where people, I do not know where you stand at an issue. He could deal with a bigot because he knew who they were. Obviously, his supporters. But the fence-sitter was the one that he was most afraid of. And that is always stuck with me. So, in my years in higher ed, when I see people that just say nothing, I think of Dr. King, and they're a bunch of fence-sitters. You got to say something.
EC (01:13:20):
Well, I am aware of that, and I think you're right in your interpretation of what King said, but I am making a different point, which is this: Even people who declare themselves not racist and who therefore would not consider themselves fence-sitters are not necessarily free of racial prejudice. I do not know how many social events I have gone to organized by white journalists, some of them terribly important, where it becomes very clear that they do not have any Black people in their lives. They just do not invite people. I remember years ago... What was it? Maybe 10, 15 years ago, when Paul Delaney left the New York Times. He was the senior-ranking Black journalist at the time. There was a party given for him by one of the top editors there. I remember being struck with the fact that the only Black people at that party were the three of us who Paul had invited. Now, from my way of thinking, it is not possible to operate in a world where you do not have any Black friends, do not see any Black people, do not think you have anything in common with Black people, and yet at the same time, to think that you are totally free of racial prejudice and preconceptions. I just do not think that is possible.
SM (01:14:54):
Remember when we invited you to West Chester, you had written your book Nation of Strangers, which, a great book.
EC (01:15:00):
Thank you.
SM (01:15:02):
I passed it on to my niece to read a couple years ago, and she read it. She liked it, too. I am just using this: Do you think we are still a nation of strangers, here in the year 2010, with the divisiveness between groups and so forth?
EC (01:15:22):
I think we are becoming less so generationally. I think that the analyses that I would have made, certainly when it comes to racism and ethnic groups and the estrangement that I would have made 20 years ago is not quite the one I would make today. I think that people, and particularly younger people, are becoming much more comfortable than folks in the Boomer Generation and certainly the folks in the Silent Generation with reaching across the so-called racial divide. So, I think we're evolving, and I think a lot of it has to do with the transformation in generations.
SM (01:16:12):
Do you feel the media has done a good job over the years covering the events that shaped the Boomers? I say this because there is a recent book out by Professor Young at Lehigh University, I am just starting to read it, which basically says that the media has portrayed the (19)60s and (19)70s in more of a sensationalistic way, concentrating oftentimes on the bad or the highly controversial over the serious and highly analytical substance types of approach. What are your thoughts on how it has been covered?
EC (01:16:47):
Well, I think the reality is that that is just a consequence of the media doing what it always does, which is to try to sum up things, which is to try to point to what it considers something that is most significant, which is the focus on something that is attention-grabbing, which is another word for sensational, and which is to try to find trends whether or not they're there. That is sort of the conventional approach to journalism in this country. So, of course, I think it is going to not be a balanced or fair view because that would be sort of saying that you expect to see a portrayal of an average, ordinary sort of society by reading the front page. Well, the front page is full of people who get shot, full of people who do awful things, is full of people who are engaged in great political battles. That is not what most people's normal life is like.
SM (01:18:01):
Yeah. One of the things of the (19)60s, and again, well, I want to make sure it crossed every ethnic group, and that was the generation gap. Did you have a generation gap in your family, between you and your parents on the issue of the war or on any of the social issues that you got involved in as a young person?
EC (01:18:21):
Well, I am not sure I would call it a generation gap, but yeah, my parents and I saw things quite differently. But I am not sure that... I think the events were more colorful back then, in some ways, than they are for some generations. But I am hard-pressed to think of a generation that does not see things differently than their parents in some way. I think my parents did not understand how I could admire at least some things about a group like the Black Panthers, who they thought were just sort of thugs. But I think the first time I brought a white friend home, actually, well, a white friend home who was female, at least, my mother just thought this was crazy because she was a product of the segregated South and did not understand how it was even conceivable to have a white friend who was female without being worried about terrible consequences. And so, her reality was a different reality. So, there is a generation gap, but certainly we looked at things different because of our generation.
SM (01:19:47):
Yeah. You remember that Life Magazine cover that had the young man with the long hair with his father pointing a finger at the sun?
EC (01:19:55):
Yeah.
SM (01:19:55):
They are talking about the generation gap. Then the book, The Wounded Generation, Jim Webb brings up in a conversation with James Fallows and Bobby Mueller and Phil Caputo, that the real gap, yeah, it was between parents and their kids, but the real gap was between those who went to war and served their country in Vietnam and those who did not, what he called the intragenerational gap. Do you agree with that?
EC (01:20:26):
You are going to get the same answer from me on a lot of these questions, which is those kinds of analyses is just way too pat.
SM (01:20:36):
That came right out of a transcript from a...
EC (01:20:37):
Right. Right. I mean, as I said, yeah, there were differences obviously. I know people who went to Vietnam; I know people who did not, and in some cases, there was not any sort of gap at all in any meaningful sense. But sure, the guys who went to Vietnam had a very different experience than the ones who did not. Part of the reason a lot of people did not go to Vietnam, it depends on what year you're talking about, the younger folks because they got better lottery numbers; the older folks, because they were better at playing the system. So, yeah, sure. There was a gap there, but it started off with a gap, particularly if you had people who were gaming the system to stay away from the war and people who decided to go. So, you had a gap before they even went.
SM (01:21:29):
Right. I know we are getting almost to the end of our time here. I got just two questions left. One of them is dealing with the women's movement. The women's movement evolved out of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement, and there's been at least a lot written about the apparent sexism that took place in both the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, which pushed women into their own movement. Are you in agreement with that?
EC (01:21:58):
Well, yes and no. I think that more out of the civil rights movement than the anti-war movement, in a sense that A Feminine Mistake was written in (19)63, as I recall. That was before the anti-war movement had really picked up any steam. That is, for me, where I would sort of put as the marker for the beginning of the modern feminist movement. I think it is as good a place as any. But I think clearly, when you had all of this talk about equality and you had all this movement for social equality, you were going to have women who looked at that and said, "My, goodness. Some of this applies to us, too." So, I would say much more out of the civil rights movement, which was in full-force by the time the women's movement began to take off, than the anti-war movement, which came a little bit later.
SM (01:22:57):
As a take-off of this question, do any of these movements of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I am talking about the environmental movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano, Native American, women's movement, do any of these mean something in 2011? Because others have commented, they are all kind of separate; they are all kind of into their own world now, and they seem like in the (19)60s and (19)70s they were together on many issues.
EC (01:23:30):
Well, I am not sure I would agree with that either. I mean, if you look at the very fact that the Mexican American Legal Defense Education Fund and the Puerto Rico Legal Defense Education Fund and American Legal Defense Fund, I mean they named themselves after the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. I mean, that was a very conscious decision. They were, in effect, copying what the NAACP had done in a very conscious way. Well, all these groups still exist. Some of them are still very prominently fighting. And there is a... What is it? The Conference for Civil Rights out of DC, which still is an umbrella group which tries to hold them all together. I do not think they have gone their separate ways. I think they are probably as much together in a sense as they ever were. Now, I think the larger question is whether the groups rooted in that time, and those groups are all rooted in that time; they were sort of formed around the civil rights era or shortly after it, how relevant they are to today's time, I think is the larger question, not whether they are still in cooperation. I think they still are.
SM (01:24:52):
Actually, this is a two-part question, and this is it. One of the things I have heard and read about over the years, and you have seen it on the news, is critical of the African American leadership today in America. How can you try to compare it with the era of the (19)50s and the (19)60s and the (19)70s, when you had Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer, Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young. I mean, John Lewis, even though he is still very important today as a congressman, but you have these very powerful, visible, respected, although some people did not like them that were racist, and trying to compare... There has been articles written that, "Where is the African American leadership today?" Have you thought about that or written about it?
EC (01:25:45):
Well, again, I think that is sort of a stupid place to begin in terms of the people who write that sort of stuff because, again, it has to do with my way of looking at the world. Martin Luther King did not just one fine day sort of spring out of nowhere and lead a movement. Martin Luther King was recruited for a movement that was already in process. The idea that a great man came along and totally changed everything that is happened before is so ahistorical, I do not know where to begin. The reason you had these larger-than-life figures is because there were larger-than-life issues that they were dealing with that were very clear, and they demanded the appearance of larger-than-life issues, so [inaudible] larger-than-life people who could embody them. You had certainly some very-very gifted people. I think the other thing you have to realize is that if you were an African American who was supremely talented and a great public speaker and had certain sort of skills in that era, you did not have a whole lot of options. So, you had a huge number of these people who were being, first of all, going into the church, and then you had the church funneling them into the movement. Not all of them. But a lot of these people sort of came that route. They did not have the option of becoming a lawyer on Wall Street. No big law firm was going to hire them. They did not have the option of working for some big corporation and becoming anything important. No corporation was going to have anything in a position. So, I think a few things you have to sort of just acknowledge: One is that if you were going to really shine, there were a limited number of areas wherein which you could shine. If you had talent, one of those areas was going to be the big movement of the day. I think the other thing though, as I was saying, is that times shape the people more than people shape the times as far as individuals go. Yes, all those people you name were supremely gifted individuals. And yes, they were courageous and they were insightful and they helped move us to a place where we needed to be moved. But the fact of the matter is if they had not, somebody else would have, because the times demanded that.
SM (01:28:27):
And in studying Bayard Rustin, we all know there would have been no Bayard Rustin without A. Philip Randolph.
EC (01:28:32):
Yeah. [inaudible]. Yeah. I would agree.
SM (01:28:34):
And what a great man he was. My last question is legacy. The best history books are often written 50 years after an era or an event. I know it is hard for you to probably to answer this, too, or to speculate, but what do you think historians and sociologists and writers will be saying about this generation, and I mean an all-inclusive generation, Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, every ethnic background you can imagine. What do you think they are going to say about the Boomer Generation once the last Boomer's passed?
EC (01:29:10):
Well, I think they will say that it was a generation that happened to be in America at a time when some huge events took place and, really, in terms of demographics, it was a huge generation, which is why one of the reasons it is called the Boomer Generation. In terms of events, it sort of bore witness to some of the defining events of that century. So, what would they say about it? I think they would say that a lot of big things happened during the era of the Boomers.
SM (01:29:48):
Okay. Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
EC (01:29:56):
I had no idea what you were going to ask, so...
SM (01:30:00):
One final thing, and thank you very much, Elvis, for...
SM (01:30:03):
One final thing, and thank you very much, Ellis, for... And I owe you lunch.
EC (01:30:06):
Oh, sure. Well, we can [inaudible]
SM (01:30:07):
I am going to do that because I come to New York. I have got about nine people. I got to take their pictures that I have interviewed on the phone, and I will be in communication with you. But do you think one of the qualities that probably is a good quality, but some people say is bad, is that this is a generation that really does not trust because they had so many leaders lie to them while they were growing up, whether it be Watergate or the lies about Vietnam, or even Eisenhower's U2 lie. They saw so many leaders lying to them that trust is, they're not a very trusting generation.
EC (01:30:46):
Well, that is a psychological question. I would not characterize the generation that way. I mean, there was certainly the phrase of the time, do not trust anyone over 30.
SM (01:30:58):
But Jerry Rubin changed that to 40 when he realized he was turning 30.
EC (01:31:06):
Oh hell, over 30 I mean, so of course. I do not think you can pick a psychological trait and use it to define an entire generation. I just do not. I think there are people with that generation who are... But to me that is much more, that is asking what analysis of personal psychology, which goes beyond, well beyond my expertise. But I just do not think those kinds of terms apply to an entire generation.
SM (01:31:37):
Very good. Well, thank you very...
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Ellis Cose
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Cose, Ellis ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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African American editors; African American Authors; Cose, Ellis--Interviews
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Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for <em>Newsweek</em>. He is the author of a dozen of books including the best-selling <em>The Rage of a Privileged Class</em>. He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the <em>Times Magazine</em>. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his B.A. degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-12-22
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.41a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.41b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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178:08
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a241e9b50dd29b12de82cf8cd00ff17c.mp3
590da30bb3caaeba63c5c2aed19fd853
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
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Date of Interview
2011-01-29
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Linda Borus
Language
English
Biographical Text
Linda Borus is the Chief Investigator with the State Appellate Defender Office, State of Michigan. Borus was an activist and Ph.D. student at Columbia University when she became the investigator for Bernard Stroble (Shango) case, as part of the Attica Defense Committee. After this trial, she devoted her entire career to working in the criminal justice system.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The 1960s; Columbia; Attica; John Kennedy's assassination; Malcolm X; Martin Luther King Jr; Anti-War Movement; Mohammad Ali; Baby boomer generation"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">The 1960s; Columbia; Attica; John Kennedy's assassination; Malcolm X; Martin Luther King Jr; Anti-War Movement; Mohammad Ali; Baby boomer generation</span>
Duration
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130:39
Subject LCSH
Michigan State Appellate Defender Office; Public defenders; Borus, Linda--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Linda Borus
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Borus, Linda ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Michigan State Appellate Defender Office; Public defenders; Borus, Linda--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Linda Borus is the Chief Investigator with the State Appellate Defender Office, State of Michigan. Borus was an activist and Ph.D. student at Columbia University when she became the investigator for Bernard Stroble (Shango) case, as part of the Attica Defense Committee. After this trial, she devoted her entire career working in the criminal justice system.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2011-01-29
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In Copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.25a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.25b
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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The size or duration of the resource.
130:39
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8248c2bd43f396b337eddc3cfc856d53.pdf
b5f57bdcfd8b825d71fa34b01acbcd58
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BINGHAM TON
U N I Y E R S L I T Y
S I A I E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
WIDEO
[4
D E P A R T M E N T
B INGHAM TON U NIVERSI TY
C HAMBER C HORUS
Tahn e e Kallis, conductor
In partial fulfillment of t h e d egree of
Master of Music in Choral Cond ucting
Assisted by
Student Bra ss a n d Percussio n Ensemble
and
Peter Brow ne, organ
Sunday, January 30, 2011
3:00 p. m .
Trinity Memorial Church
Binghamton, New York
�U NIVERSITY C HAMBER C HORUS
PROGRAM
G. F. Handel
( 1685– 1 759)
Sing Unto God (Judas Maccabeus) ..
Thomas Tallis
( 1505– 1585)
UF You Love Me
lives).... Ludwig van Beethoven
Hallelujah (Christ on the Mount o f O
(1770–1827)
(©7107) R
A
R
E
I. Gloria in excelsis Deo
ll. Domine Deus Rex caelestis
III. Quoniam tu solus sanct us
John Rutter
(b. 1945)
Susan MacLe nnan, Michel le Anderson, sopranos
Cheryl Jacobson, alto
Trumpets
Dan Fein, Nicholas Polacco,
Olivia Santoro, Samuel B. Weintraub
Trombones
Jay Bartishev ich, Bill Marsiglia, Rob Menard
Tuba
Matt Gukowsky
Percussion
Amanda Jacobs, Benjamin Ramos
SOPRANO
Jayde Doetschman
MayBelle Golis
Susan MacLennan
Cathie Makowka
Kelly Pueschel
Ligita Poznere
Susan Sarzynski
Barbara Thamasett
Jennifer Walsh
Lois Wilston
ALTO
Michelle Anderson
Michelle Doherty
Diane A. Ferraccioli
Sylvia Horowitz
Cheryl Jacobson
Ethel F. Molessa
Greta L. Mye rs
Joyce Printz
TENOR
Kevin Dohert y
H.B. King
Lee Shepherd
Sherry Willia mson
BASS
Bruce Borton
Carl Bugaisk i
J. Scott Hust ed
Tom Lamphe re
Jacob Myers
Joseph E. Nelson
William Clark Snyder
�Binghamton University M usic D epartment’s
U P C O M I N G E V E N T S
MidDay Concerts are held on Thursdays at 1:20 PM in Casadesus
Recital Hall unless otherwise noted and are FREE
Friday, February 4 — Early On (Peter Browne, keyboards, Barbara
Kaufman, recorder, Christina Salasny, soprano, Stephen Stalker,
cello, Paul Sweeney, guitar) — 8 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — $10
general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
Thursday, February 17 — Organist Jonathan Biggers — A Bach
Celebration!! Series – 8 PM — FA21 — $10 general public; $5 faculty/
staff/seniors; $2 students
Friday, February 18 — Organist Jonathan Biggers — A Bach
Celebration!! Series (11 / 17 repeat performance) — 4 PM — FA21
$10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; $2 students
Saturday, February 19 — Master’s Recital : Cabiria Jacobsen,
mezzosoprano — 3 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — free
Thursday, February 24 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus
Recital Hall — free
Saturday, February 26 — University Symphony Orchestra : Vive la
France — 3 PM — Osterhout Concert Theater – $10 general public; $5
faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
Sunday, February 27 — Wind Symphony Concerto and Aria
Competition — 6:30 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — free
Thursday, March 3 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus
Recital Hall — free
Saturday, March 5 — Junior Recital : Mark Rossnagel, organ — 3
PM — First Presbyterian Church, Binghamton — free
For ticket information, please call the
Anderson Center B ox O ffice at 777ARTS
�
Dublin Core
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Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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1 audio disc
Duration
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35:45:00
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154620">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154620</a>
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Title
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Binghamton University Chamber Chorus January 30, 2011
Recital Tape 2011-1-30
Description
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Held at 3:00 p.m., January 30, 2011, Trinity Memorial Church, Binghamton, New York.
Creator
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Fallis, Tahnee
Browne, Peter
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-01-30
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In copyright
Type
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sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
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1 audio disc
Duration
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35:45:00
Streaming Audio
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146586">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146586</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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Tahnee Fallis Graduate Conducting Record January 30, 2011
Recital Tape 2011-1-30
Description
An account of the resource
Works by Handel, Beethoven, Rutter
Creator
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Fallis, Tahnee
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-01-30
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5bdb22b3ae908811152b0b3bc5fc8e57.jpg
cf91d4520a217957328d0ffd55a877c6
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7063e6b9f4ce0c6cad17aa1d599fdcf5.mp3
84029d45994fe13bc714a96dc5ac37fe
Dublin Core
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Ted Morgan
Date of Interview
2011-02-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
117:15
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Ted Morgan is a Professor Emeritus in Political Science at Leigh University. He is the author of The Sixties Experience: Hard Lessons about Modern America. Dr. Morgan received his Bachelor degree from Oberlin College and his Master's degree and Ph.D. in Political Science from Brandeis University. He taught classes on Social Movements and Legacies of the 1960s, and Propaganda, Media, American Politics, and Organizing for Democracy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,11791078],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Ted Morgan is a Professor Emeritus in Political Science at Leigh University. He is the author of <em>The Sixties Experience: Hard Lessons about Modern America</em>. Dr. Morgan received his Bachelor degree from Oberlin College and his Master's degree and Ph.D. in Political Science from Brandeis University. He taught classes on Social Movements and Legacies of the 1960s, and Propaganda, Media, American Politics, and Organizing for Democracy.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Oberlin College; Vietnam War; political activism; media; Baby boom generation; Conscientious objector; Anderson Cooper; FOX News; financial crisis; war discourse."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Oberlin College; Vietnam War; political activism; media; Baby boom generation; Conscientious objector; Anderson Cooper; FOX News; financial crisis; war discourse.</span>
Subject LCSH
Historians; Journalists; Authors; Morgan, Ted, 1932--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Ted Morgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Morgan, Ted, 1932- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Historians; Journalists; Authors; Morgan, Ted, 1932--Interviews
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.135
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
117:15
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Ted Morgan is a Professor Emeritus in Political Science at Leigh University. He is the author of <em>The Sixties Experience: Hard Lessons about Modern America</em>. Dr. Morgan received his Bachelor degree from Oberlin College and his Master's degree and Ph.D. in Political Science from Brandeis University. He taught classes on Social Movements and Legacies of the 1960s, and Propaganda, Media, American Politics, and Organizing for Democracy.
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d67ec8422639a0cb92cb5895aab488b1.pdf
d6aa4e580a0426916de53d6350fb7075
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
A N I Y E R D L I L Y
S T A T E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K
d e c
[4
D E P A R T M E N T
EARLY O N
Peter B rowne, keyboards
Barbara Kaufman, recorders
Christina Salasny, soprano
Stephen Stalker, cello
Paul Sweeny, guitar
' \
]
February 4, 2011
8:00 p.m.
Room 21, Fine Arts Building
�PROGRAM
dro Scarlatti
Cant ata: Clori Mia Clori Bella..............................Alesan (1660–1725)
Recitative: Clori mia, clori bella
Aria : Onde chiare
Recitative: Si, si, narrar egli pur bell’ onde amichi
Aria : Parla parla il cor fa tto loquace
soprano, alto recorder, cello, guitar, harpsichord
nnn Merula
Can zona La Pighetta.................cccccevvvveeeeeneennnn
(1595–1665)
soprano recorder, cello, guitar, harpsichord
hn Dowland
Can She Excuse My Wrongs............c..cccce................JO(1563–1626)
Sorrow Stay
Wilt Thou Unkind thus Rea ve Me?
Lasso Vita Mia
soprano, guitar, alto recorder, cello
..... . Barsanti
Sonata III in g mino r.... ..... ..... ..... ..ce eee evn nn.. (1690–1755)
Adagio
Allegro
Largo
Gavotta
Minuet
alto recorder, cello, harpsichord
Three Ricercari: Nos. 6, 1, & 3
Domenico Gabrielli
(1659–1690)
solo cello
0
eorg F. Handel
Cant ata: Nel Dolce Dell’oblio. . ...........................G (1685–1759)
Recitative: Nel dolce dell’oblio
Aria : Giache il sonno a lei
Recitative: Cosi fida ella vive
Aria : Ha l ’inganno iI suo diletto
soprano, alto recorder, cello, guitar, harpsichord
�TEXTS
& INTERMISSION a
CLORI MIA, CLORI BELLA
Peter Hurford
(B.1930)
From: Laudate Dominum
Scherzo
Meditation
Processional
organ solo
Cello Suite No. 1
Canto primo (sostenuto e Iargamente)
Fuga: Andante moderato
Lamento: Lento rubato
Canto secondo (sostenuto)
.. Benjamin Britten
(19131976)
I
I
solo cello
Five Quiet Songs
Dirge In Woods
Silence
An Epitaph
Omar’s Lament
The Birds
Divertimento (1964)
Prelude
Air
Festivo
Soliloquy
Finale
...... John Duarte
(1919–2004)
soprano, guitar
John Graves
Mario Mascarenhas
Early On
3. Recitative
Clori, my beautiful Clori,
Ah! Mine no longer;
Clori who loved me so much,
and whom I loved,
now flees me in disdain
and says continually,
“I shall detest you as much
as I used to love you.”
Friendly waters of the Tiber,
tell her that I love her so much,
that your waves are increased
by my weeping.
Yes, tell her,
friendly waves,
that my heart speaks thus,
driven to our banks
by the cruelty of my suffering.
Thus on my lips
speaks my heart
My lips O Clori,
do not tell of their torment,
overcome by grief,
but the sighing of my heart
tells you all too much
and yet you do not hear.
2. Aria
4. Aria
Crystal waters,
which scatter tears of
silver murmuring
on your beautiful shores,
I beseech you, do not keep silent ;
if weeping stirs you,
gather my tears
into your waves
My heart speaks, made eloquent in
describing to you its pain.
And with the language of sighs,
you know that it speaks of peace.
to make known my torment.
alto recorder, piano
Papagaio Embriagado
1. Recitative
I
1
Lasso Vita Mia
Alas my life makes me to die, cruel love consumes my heart with a
thousand wounds which make me die. Ah me, alas, cruel love does not
let me die but makes me suffer a thousand torments.
�Nel Dolce Dell’Oblio
1. Recitative: In sleep’s sweet forgetfulness while you are sleeping, my
beloved Phyllis watches with her thoughts. And in night’s stillness, love
will not allow her to rest but in different ways disturbs her peace while
she is sleeping.
2. Aria: Around her restless bed hover visions of her beloved.
Dreaming she sees her love, hurries to embrace his chains.
3. Recitative: Thus, faithful she lives, faithful to the heart she loves.
And in darkness, though lying, he breathes the light of that sun for which
he is sighing.
4. Aria: To embrace in sleep’s deception that dear form for which we
grieved. O delight beyond belief! But to wake up from this dream of
gladness and joy, to discover all was madness, our grief is past belief.
FIVE QUIET SONGS
3. An Epitaph (Walter De La Mare)
Here lies a most beautiful lady, light of step and heart was she. I think
she was the most beautiful lady who ever lived in the West Country. But
beauty vanishes, Beauty passes; however rare, rare it be. And when I
crumble, who will remember the lady from the W est Country?
4. Omar’s Lament (Edward Fitzgerald trans. Rubaiyat of Omar
Khayam)
Alas, that Spring should vanish with the rose! That youth’s sweet
scented manuscript should close! The nightingale that in the branches
sang, ah, whence and whither flown again, who knows?
Ah love! Could thou and I with fate conspire to grasp this sorry scheme
of things entire, would we not shatter it to bits and then remould it closer
to the heart ’s desire, the heart’s desire.
1. Dirge in Woods (George Meredith)
A wind sways the pines, and below not a breath of wild air; still as the
mosses that glow on the flooring and over the lines of the roots here and
there. The pine tree drops its dead; they are quiet as under the sea;
overhead rushes life in a race, as the clouds the clouds chase, and we
go, and we drop like the fruits of the tree: Even we, even so.
2. Silence (Thomas Hood)
There is a silence where hath been no sound; There is a silence where
sound may be; in the cold grave, under the deep, deep sea, or in a wide
desert where no life is found, which hath been mute and still must sleep
profound.
No voice is hushed, no life treads silently; but clouds and cloudy
shadows wander free, that never spoke, over the idle ground.
But in the green ruins in the desolate walls of antique palaces where .
man hath been, though the dun fox, or wild hyena calls and owls that flit
continually between shriek to the echo, and the low wind moans; there
the true silence is, self conscious and alone.
5. The Birds (Hilaire Belloc)
When Jesus Christ was four years old, the angels brought him toys of
gold which no man ever bought or sold; and yet with them he would not
play. He made him wild fowl out of clay, and blessed them till they flew
away: Tu creasti Domine, O, Jesus Christ, Thou Child so wise, bless
mine hands and fill mine eyes, and bring my soul to Paradise.
�Binghamton Univer sity Music Departme nt ’s
U P C O M I N G E V E N T S
MidDay concerts are held on Thursdays, 1:20 PM in Casadesus Recital
Hall unless otherwise noted and are FREE
Thursday, February 17 — Organist Jonathan Biggers — A Bach
Celebration!! Series — 8 PM — FA21 — $10 general public; $5 faculty/
staff/seniors; $2 students
Friday, February 18 — Organist Jonathan Biggers — A Bach
Celebration!! Series (11/ 17 repeat performance) — 4 PM — FA21
$10 general public; $5 faculty/staff/seniors; $2 students
Saturday, February 19 — Master’s Recital : Cabiria Jaoobsen,
mezzosoprano — 3 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — free
Thursday, February 24 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus
Recital Hall — free
Saturday, February 26 — University Symphony O rchestra : Vive Ia
France — 3 PM — Osterhout Concert Theater — $10 general public; $5
faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
Sunday, February 27 — Wind Symphony Concerto and Aria
Competition — 6:30 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — free
Thursday, March 3 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus
Recital Hall — free
Saturday, M arch 5 — Junior Recital : Mark Rossnagel, orga n — 3
PM — First Presbyterian Church, Binghamton — free
Sunday, March 6 — Win d Symphony : Passacaglia (Homage on
BACH) — 3 PM — Anderson Center Chamber Hall — free
Thursday, March 10 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus
Recital Hall — free
For ticket information, please call the
Ander son Center Box Office a t 7 77A R TS.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 audio discs
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:04:01
45:44
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146589">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE146589</a>
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Early On, February 4, 2011
Recital Tape 2011-2-4
Description
An account of the resource
Works by Scarlatti. Merula, Dowland, Gabrielli, Hurford, HAndel, Britten
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Browne, Peter
Kaufman, Barbara
Salasny, Christina
Stalker, Stephen
Sweeny, Paul Morris
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-04
Rights
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In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
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1 audio disc
Duration
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58:14:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154623">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE154623</a>
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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To Paris and back, February 6 2011
Recital Tape 2011-2-6
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 3:00 p.m., February 6, 2011, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Joel Dieger
Mariam Vardzelashvili
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b89a5d08a08954b62c4d47fe0e16ab26.jpg
03198c17fb2c2298098fe26085eb78bc
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c8cdbc11084b50b1d1bb92ce849cdeb.mp3
1cc31cdc9881cea5c8f258e6596492b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
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Date of Interview
2011-02-09
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Fass, 1933-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bob Fass, a native of Brooklyn, NY, is a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, Radio Unnameable. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He has a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show is still on air. You can tune in every Thursday night from midnight until 3:00 am."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Bob Fass (June 29, 1933 – April 24, 2021), a native of Brooklyn, NY, was a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, <em>Radio Unnameable</em>. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He had a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show was on the air until his death. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Theater; Nina Simone; Hippies; Yippies; Black Power; Julius Lester; Sexual revolution; Birth control pill; Counterculture; Generation gap; Jim Webb; Baby boom generation; Voting; Radio show; Musicians; Bob Dylan; Gulley Jimson; WBAI; WFMU; The Horse's Mouth."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Theater; Nina Simone; Hippies; Yippies; Black Power; Julius Lester; Sexual revolution; Birth control pill; Counterculture; Generation gap; Jim Webb; Baby boom generation; Voting; Radio show; Musicians; Bob Dylan; Gulley Jimson; WBAI; WFMU; The Horse's Mouth.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
223:03
Subject LCSH
Radio broadcasters; Soldiers; Fass, Bob, 1933--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Fass
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fass, Bob, 1933- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Radio broadcasters; Soldiers; Fass, Bob, 1933--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bob Fass, a native of Brooklyn, NY, is a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, Radio Unnameable. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He has a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show is still on air. You can tune in every Thursday night from midnight until 3:00 am."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Bob Fass (June 29, 1933 – April 24, 2021), a native of Brooklyn, NY, was a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, <em>Radio Unnameable</em>. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He had a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show was on the air until his death. </span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.50a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.50b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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223:03