13 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f96dd7fa17305c122d51c5736a4f517c.mp3 6c435750b2c14a4c6c6584b33ff00adb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gruss, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caganek, Anna Date of Interview 1978-01-30 Subject LCSH Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.) Willis Sharpe Kilmer; Swamp Root Medicine Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 12:35 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56071">Interview with Michael Gruss</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Gruss Interviewed by: Anna Caganek, Dan O'Neil, Joe Newcomb, Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 30 January 1978 Dan: Okay. Uh, when will this be, uh…? Joe: Oh, it’ll be, uh…it’ll be a little while. We’ll let you all know when it’s gonna be out; it’ll probably be a couple’a weeks. Dan: Couple’a weeks? Joe: Couple weeks we get to…permission. That, We’ll have a couple more to talk with, eh…some other people [unintelligible] Michael: And then you’re all through with that. Joe: Yeah, we’re all done for now. Michael: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Dan: [chuckles] Nettie: That was really interesting, Mr. Gruss. Michael: Now, I thought maybe you’d want a picture there taken of that shrine in the back. Joe: Uh, what’s that? Michael: Huh? Joe: Shrine? Michael: You go toe - go through the- Dan: Y-y-you can show - yeah. You can show him the, the, the shrine; it’s right through the back door there. Michael: Wait, you go right, straight through - you look through that window there. Nettie: Through that window. [Cut to a bit later] Michael: In the town, Vixen. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: And that [unintelligible] was desperately, you know, against anything like that. Because yeah, he was one… [Background noise interruption] Dan: Huh, huh, go ahead. Yeah, it’s on now. Yeah. Yeah… Joe: Yeah, we’ll be going back to the, uh… Annie: Thank you very much. Joe: Back to the office. Annie: I appreciated hearing this story so - Endicott Johnson, especially. History. Michael: How did you like that in the back? That shrine? Annie: That’s part of your handiwork, huh? Joe: That’s very nice. Very nice. Annie: It’s a powerful tree. Michael: You know, I thought maybe if one wanted a picture of that sometime, they could go down and take ‘em. Joe: Yeah, okay. We- [Unintelligible mix of voices] Dan: Have you, eh…have you got any more of these here I could give to Joe? One to Joe? Joe: What’s that? Dan: This is a, this is a pin of the s-Johnson City Arch. Joe: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got any of those? Nettie: We all got pins, but we all got one, yes. Dan: Yeah. Joe: Oh, did you? Good. Nettie: So you have to have one, too. Michael: There’s you. Dan: That would be for a man. Nettie: For a man, you gotta have the rum. Michael: And, and you just got the one head over, the other head [unintelligible]- Nettie: The rum, Mr. Gruss. Michael: You have to have one of those. [clears throat] Dan: Nah, that’s just- Nettie: This one here. [Unintelligible mix of voices] Michael: No, the, the other [unintelligible]. Mm-hm. Nettie: Oh, yeah. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Yeah. Michael: You got one? Nettie: Yeah, I have a small one. Yeah, I have a small one. Michael: That’s all I get out of 22 pounds. Dan: Yeah [laughing]. Michael: No, I see it. Eh, eh, I’d have to get it for, for every room. Well, anyway…they cost - you see that…it cost, er, the shoes and [unintelligible]- Joe: We don’t know if they can touch. Dan: Brass, isn’t it? Michael: Huh? Dan: Brass, isn’t it? Michael: No. Dan: Brass, probably. Michael: No, it was bronze. Dan: Bronze? Joe: Oh, yeah. Dan: I imagine you could take- [Unintelligible mix of voices] Michael: And I have to get from every room - for all the ages - how many male, how many female. Go to each room, and I put it in an envelope, and put mark that down there, and that’s - put on my suggestion: 10 cents a piece. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And that, that’s what it cost, ebeh, when I, eh, had to mail. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And that’s, everybody got ‘em because everybody was 100 back then for, eh, you know…E. J. Well, you know what they did years ago. My job was, eh - during the wintertime, they - every week there’d be two cargos of oranges or fruit. And, and we had four rows in, eh, Florida, you know. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: E. J.’s. Dan: Yeah. Michael: Yeah, so we, eh…I was down there. Well, Patterson. He used to be the market master. And, eh, they sent two cargos here: One for Endicott, one for Binghamton. Joe: Right. Michael: So they sold the tops. Joe: Right. Michael: 50 cents a pack for your oranges. Three if it was all, all right there on the tree. Because if it was on every car, there had to be two men. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: See, when your left floor - they’re in Florida, when they loaded, they had to put ice in there. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: But, when you got to the cold country, you had to dump the ice. And, uh, light these kerosene lamps to decide - so they wouldn’t freeze. Joe: Do you remember anything about the Kilmer, eh…Swamp Root factory? Michael: The what? Dan: Kilmer Swamp Root? Do you remember anything about the Kilmer Swamp Root? Michael: Oh, yeah. Willis Sharpe Kilmer? Dan: Yeah. Michael: Oh, yes! I knew him good. Dan: Hm, did you? Michael: Everybody said he was a mean - he had that, um…place there, eh…bought up [Route] 17…uh…Sky Lake. Joe: Mm-hm. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: Yes. See, my son was doing some floor work up in there, and I had to have some more tile. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And there come up - drove up in there. And Willis was up in there. And, eh…he said, “You got any business here?” I said, “I sure have.” Said, “I’m bringing some tile up here for my son.” He said, “Who?” I said, “John.” He says, “Is that your son?” I said, “Yes.” “Ooooh!” He grabbed, he said, “Let’s goin’ up in there.” He helped me to carry it there. He had four buildings here and two lakes. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: He said, “Gee.” He says, “I’m glad to meet you. I got every - take ‘em.” He says, “Anytime you wanna come in here, come.” And he said, “The place is yours.” Dan: Uh-huh. Michael: Yeah, he was awful, awful nice. Dan: George, George Ely was his Treasurer. Michael: Huh? Dan: George Ely was his Treasurer. Michael: Yeah. Well… Dan: As I understand it, there was- Michael: I think there was a, eh…wh-where, uh, there’s whatcha call there…? That Slovak cemetery. That whole place, all the way up to the top - that’s where his barns were for his horses. Joe: Did he have a race track there? Michael: Yes - big race track. Dan: That was on Riverside Dr., though? Michael: Riverside Dr. Dan: Yeah. Michael: There was no Riverside Dr. at that time because that was all fenced in up ‘till that hill there. Dan: Yeah. Michael: And there was all barns up in there. You take for instance, eh, the horses. [clears throat] You can see today, they’re all in bronze. Was you ever up to the Kilmer Ceme-Cemetery? Dan: Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s, uh, LaFrance Cemetery on Morgan Rd. Michael: Where? Dan: LaFrance Cemetery on Morgan Rd. Michael: Right. Yeah. Dan: They’ve got a monument to Exterminator. Michael: Exterminator. And the other one there is, eh… Dan: Sun Briar. Michael: Sun Briar. Dan: And, yeah. Michael: That was the fastest horse. That, that, the horse brought him money. Dan: Exterminator won the Derby. Michael: Yeah. Dan: That was a last-minute switch. Michael: Yeah. Dan: Yeah. Michael: He was, he was, you’ll see, you’ll see there’s other animals in there: Dogs, and cats, and everything. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Michael: Am I right? There’s monuments all around there. Dan: [clears throat] He’s got one big plot. Michael: Yeah. Dan: There, it’s very well-kept. Michael: Yep. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: You know, uh…everyone said he was a mean guy, and this and that. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: Well, I didn’t find him that way. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: What other association did you have with him? Michael: Wi’im? Joe: Yeah. Michael: Not - no kind of a personal association at all. Joe: I see, I just wanted to- Michael: It was just that way. Joe: Yeah. Michael: Meet him that way, and I always found him very, very good. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: Because you see, uh, here, when he died? Everybody was, yelled that there were out, said this and that. They told me, they said, “Well, why don’t you put your name in there? You’ll get something, anyway.” I said, “No, I don’t want anything.” Nettie: [laughs] Michael: “Don’t want anything that don’t belong to me.” But I’ll tell you, as far I was concerned? I thought Willis Sharpe Kilmer was a very good man. Dan: Yeah. Joe: Now, did he found the company or was it his father? Michael: Huh? Joe: Did he found the company or was it his father? Michael: Well, I’ll tell you the truth about it. He had a brother. And his brother, ah, eh, made that swamp root medicine. Dan: Right. Michael: Am I right? Dan: Right. Michael: I mean, he stole the patent. Dan: That’s right. That’s, that’s where he- Joe: Who, who did, now? Michael: Willis. Dan: Wi-Wi-Willis and his father- Michael: [chuckles] Dan: -stole the patent from [chuckles] the uncle. Michael: Am I right? Dan: Right. Joe: Well, wa-was it his father or was it Willis? Michael: It’s his brother. Joe: Yeah. But, who stole the patent? Michael: Willis stole it from his brother. Joe: I see, alright. Okay. Dan & Nettie: [chuckles] Michael: You see, they had to, whatcha call it…? Had it, eh…you know, to have, eh, have patents made, it’s quite tricky. Nettie: Right. Joe: Yeah. Now, who’s - who was Dr. Kilmer? The one they used in the advertising? They called it, “Dr. Kilmer.” Now, that was- Michael: That was Willis Sharpe. Annie: Thank you. Joe: Oh, was that Willis? Dan: Yeah, the thing- Annie: -we can talk to you then. Dan: Okay. Annie: Thank you very much for letting us- Michael: Yeah, it was nice here. Annie: Thank you. Michael: Yeah. Good talking to you. Annie: We’ll talk to you soon. Joe: Thank you. Annie: Bye, nice to meet you. Joe: We’ll let you know if there’s good - we’ll let you know if this is going to be on so you can watch yourself. [Shared laughter] Annie: We’ll tell you when. Okay? Michael: Well, that’s, that’s the whole story. [Unintelligible voices] Dan: I, I, uh, I’ve got, uh, I’ve got that on another tape. Uh, uh, about the, uh… Joe: Do you? Of Kilmer? Dan: Kilmer, yeah. Joe: Oh, okay. Dan: Stealin’ that, stealin’ that- Joe: Alright. Dan: -eh, patent. But, eh, as I understand, of course, in those days- Michael: You didn’t know it was a swamp root, did you? Dan: Eh, yeah, yes, I knew it was not a swamp root. But, eh, in those days, advertising was such that it was, eh, eh, it was, it was shady. In other words, somebody would send me on, and would advertise a yard of soap for 10 cents. Michael: Yeah. Dan: So you’d send in your 10 cents and they’d send you a, a yard of soap thread. Michael: Well… Joe: Yeah, it was- Michael: The thing is, know you take places like the First Ward. That’s where everybody came here to do their shopping. Everybody from whole [sic] Binghamton. Dan: Mm-hm. Michael: ‘Cause they had the stuff they needed. And you take for instance Dr. Mary Ross…she was 100%, she was, uh, as I said before, on maternity cases. Joe: Yeah. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Well, I think we- Michael: And I couldn’t turn anybody down. I couldn’t, you know? People were poor. There was a lot of poor ones who, they- Dan: [clears throat] Michael: But, I still say what they love - what we need over here…we need a good shopping center and a good drug store. We have no drug store. Dan: No. Joe: You keep plugging that. Michael: Huh? Joe: You- [Tape cuts to sometime later] Dan: This concludes a televised interview with Mr. Michael Gruss of 10 Phelps St., Binghamton, New York. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gruss Subject The topic of the resource Gruss, Michael -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Johnson City (N.Y.) Description An account of the resource Michael Gruss speaks about Willis Sharpe Kilmer, his horses and the Swamp Root Medicine he produced. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 68 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0c8848de3376827a12c5948050203bf2.mp3 c84fbc024164e2c82a6da5440831ec12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5bf812daa036adaec7594d4ea4c8ba5b.mp3 dfe6b0cabc4d858f37c0bad08841c7fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kuryla, Frances Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-01-13 Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:42 Minutes ; 00:24 Seconds Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56074">Interview with Frances Kuryla</a> Subject LCSH Kuryla, Frances -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Mrs. Frances Kuryla Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 13 January 1978 [This interview concerns Mrs Kuryla's father, Michele Gallo, and her Uncle, Nichola Gallo, hereafter referred to as Uncle Nick. The third voice in the interview on tape is Barbara Gallo, Mrs Kuryla’s sister.] Dan: Frances, will you relate to me the immigration of your father and your uncle to this country and their life and experiences in the community, and start right there in Italy where they were born? Frances: Well, they were born in a little town, Padula, in Salerno and my uncle, as an elderly brother, came to America first at the age of seventeen, ah. Dan: That was your Uncle Nick? Frances: My Uncle Nick. Dan: OK. Frances: And ah, the reason I suppose they did come was their trade, that they thought they would have more of an opportunity to practice their trade, which was stonecutters, and ah, my uncle came in 18— Dan: —87. Frances: 1887, and he settled, well, he settled in, ah, Glen Falls. I think it is very difficult— Dan: When did he come to Binghamton? Frances: Well, he came to Binghamton in 1897 on a job on the Courthouse. He was employed by Carlucci of Scranton, and he was foreman on this work on the Courthouse. In the meantime he met a young woman, widow woman, who had a business on Chenango Street in the Moon block, and they married and they started this business from then on. Dan: Now, what business did they start, Frances? Frances: Candy, candy business. Dan: Canning? Frances: Candy store. Dan: Oh, candy store, OK. Frances: And then he decided that, ah, to go into a bigger business—he opened up a wholesale grocery and, ah, then on he, ah, chartered his own private bank—the first Italian bank in the area and, ah— Dan: Where was that located? Frances: That was on 138 Henry Street. Dan: 138 Henry Street. Frances: And what I can remember of it, and it was there until 1926 when they liquidated it. Dan: And when did you say he started? Frances: In 1912 it was chartered, in 1914 actually licensed, and ah, I said he had a wholesale grocery, and he also was involved with the steamship agency and money exchange—that was all involved in his business. Then as far as my uncle, as I said, he kept that until he retired in 1926—he gave it all up and he retired to Italy, returned to Italy. He stayed there for a year and then came back to this country. He retired and he was fifty years old when he retired. Dan: When did he come back? Frances: In 1927. Dan: Well, he only stayed in Italy two years, then, and then he came back here and retired. Frances: He lived at 119 Henry Street. Dan: So until, 1897 to 1926, let’s see, that’s only thirty years he retired. Frances: Yeah—he was fifty years old. Dan: Now you say that he worked on the Courthouse as a foreman? Frances: Now I understand that he was a foreman, now, this was his trade. Whether he actually did the work there, I don't know. Dan: Now what building do you know that he worked on? Frances: Supposedly the Courthouse. Dan: Another building? Frances: No, what all I remember that my father and my other uncle worked on other buildings in the area. Dan: Oh, I see, OK. Frances: Then my father came in the 1900—he followed his brother here, and I, he, guess he landed in New York and stayed there a while with the family. Then also worked through Carlucci—they had this job to build the Press Building and my father came here as an employee of Carlucci contractors as a stonecutter. He did all the artwork on the doorway, the archway. Dan: On the— Frances: Of the Press Building—it took him months to do that. He also told me about the lion heads—there were six of them up on the top and he also told me that each lion had a tooth as long as your arm. I can remember these little things that he told me and how they had to make their own scaffolds—there was no rig, this carving, they also had to do their own scaffolding, you know, and I remember him telling me also, back in those days, in 1904, at that time as a stonecutter, he was making $7.00 a day, which was a big thing back then. Dan: It was good money in those days. Frances: In those days. Dan: Right. Frances: This is what he used to tell me about it. Then Dad, I guess he got what they call, almost like a miner's, you know, a spot on the lung. Dan: Yeah, yeah, a lung disease. Frances: Yes, so he had to give it up and he went back to Italy in 1909 or 1910—he went back to Italy, supposedly to get the cure or whatever it was. So when my Dad came back to America, which must have been about 1910—he was only there for about a year in 1910 and, ah, he gave it up and he went into business with my Uncle Angelo Sessani, they had, like a hotel. Then he met my mother and they decided that he would pull out of that and they got married, in 1915 he married my mother, and they opened up their own store on Fayette Street in the Serafini building. Then in 1921 my dad moved his little store to the building at 9 Fayette Street, you know, where they are now—where Mike was born in 1921. Then he went into the wholesale grocery business and dealt with all the Italian import business—he used to distribute to, like the Arlington and all that. Then when my Uncle retired in 1926, my dad took over the steamship agency and the money exchange—he expanded his business to that, and then Dad retired when—80 years old. Dan: Until he was 80. Frances: Yeah, he died in 1971. Dan: Ah, did this bank, now, that your uncle established—-what was the reason for establishing that? Now, this was an Italian bank, right? Frances: Yeah, it was a State of New York, but it dealt with the immigrants to be able to help them to speak English. They couldn't speak, you know. Dan: And then, also—what was the steamship end of it? Frances: Like the Broome County Travel. Dan: Just like the Broome County Travel Agency. Frances: Yeah, it was a travel agency by boat—there was no air. Dan: That was started in what year? Frances: I suppose along that time, too—I mean, I can't pin it down. Dan: He got out of that in 1926 and it just closed. Frances: He got out of that in 1926 and it just closed, the City Bank, the City Bank, what do you call it where they came in and checked up? And they closed up—you know, that’s when they liquidated his bank. Dan: Yeah—now, when he established the bank, I mean, did he have to have so much assets? Do you know how much assets there were? Frances: I don't know how much there were. Dan: You know, I checked some directories dating back to 1880, 1890, over at Roberson Library, and they had quite a few banks listed and they boasted of capitals of $100,000. Which is—that was a lot of money, you know. Of course, today it’s peanuts. Frances: Well my cousin Annie, Annie Sassani, I was talking to her yesterday—of course she worked for my uncle, you know, until they liquidated his bank—and she said that very day, that last day when the investigators or whatever came in, they checked it all out or whatever it was, and it came right to the penny—everything—you know, the license was removed as part of it. It had to be licensed. Dan: Do you know what was the reason why it closed? Frances: Because he retired. Dan: Oh, just retired. Frances: He didn't need to anymore—there was no other reason, he just retired. And then my cousin, she was over there, he took his daughter over there and she married over there. Dan: And then he came back here. Frances: And then he came back here. Dan: And then he was just in retirement after he came back here. Frances: Yeah. Dan: But your dad carried on the wholesale grocery. Frances: My dad—he did not start my father in the wholesale business, he had nothing to do with it. My dad only took from my uncle was the steamship agency and the money exchange, but as far as the business, the wholesale, that was my father’s establishment, not my uncle’s, see what I mean? Dan: What was your father's? The steamship was your father’s. Frances: The grocery store was my father’s. Dan: The grocery store was your father's. Frances: Yes, but when my uncle closed up all his business, my father took over his steamship agency and money exchange. The bank was not transferable—that was licensed. Uncle Nick had a grocery. Dan: But you say the money exchange—this was for—? Frances: Foreign exchange money orders, people who would send money over here. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Frances: Well, that’s about it, of course they were property owners, no doubt about that.  Dan: Yeah, yeah, but your dad, outside of his affiliation with the bank there, was primarily in the grocery business, right? Frances: Forty-some years. Dan: You say he worked on the Kilmer Building? Frances: The Press Building my father worked on. Dan: The Press Building. Frances: Of course there was a Kilmer building, too, but they, ah, they used to say the one up near the Arlington was actually the Kilmer building. They called that the Kilmer building—the Landers. Dan: The Landers, yeah. Frances: But the Press Building was actually a Kilmer building, he owned it and Dad actually worked on it, I know that for a fact. In fact to look is like, well, it will be there forever. I hate the thought of ever tearing it down. Dan: In essence, though, Frances, the reason that your uncle came to Broome County was because the contractor down in Scranton had the job for him here, and ah, your dad—having the same trade, he came over too. Frances: Yeah, you see, they were apprentices—my dad was, in Italy—to the trade. They actually came up from Pennsylvania, but when my dad landed in New York, he had a sister living in New York and he stayed with her for a while. Then he went to Scranton. Dan: So he did have relatives in the States already. Francis: Oh yeah, in New York—evidently they came before Dad, but Dad was younger. Eventually all the family resided in Binghamton. Dan: Yeah, and how about the language barrier? How did they overcome that? Frances: My uncle spoke fluently, English fluently. Dad still, he was, of course he was hard of hearing, so what—ah, when he first came, whatever he learned in the beginning, that sort of stood with him, so he still had the accent, but Dad read. Dan: Did he have to attend any schools here at all? Frances: No, but they were educated in Europe—they both had, like a high school education. Uncle Nick was more with the English speaking than Dad was—like, like he was a great friend of Harvey Hinman, the man who used to be the Chancellor of the State of New York, and Senator Clark. I've got pictures of my uncle with Senator Clark—they used to be buddy-buddies with Senator Clark in my day. You know the ones who had Senator Clark over on the old Vestal Highway, that had the farm there—well, ah, I have pictures of my uncle—he mingled more with the political element. He did quite a bit, like during the election time—took the Italian people to go out and vote—like a leader, like you know. People depended on him a lot for help in translations and stuff. He was like my mother. My mother did a lot of that—of course Mother was American-born. She was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania, but Mother did a lot of, for instance, my dad's trade or my dad's business. Dad didn't come in contact with the others in his earlier days, he dealt more with the immigrants. Like when they came, showing them the way to get around and handling a lot of stuff. Now my mother would do a lot of interpreting for these people who couldn't speak English, although she was American-born but she spoke fluent Italian. So this is what, their contribution toward, you know, the Italian community—helping the immigrant when they came, you know. They didn't know which way to turn and the store was there and they, it was like home to them—it was that area where the Italians all sort of settled. Dan: Right—that was down— Frances: —on Fayette Street. Dan: Fayette Street. Frances: I don't know whether my dad's store was actually the first store. I'm not sure. Dan: Now, in that neighborhood, of course you had not only Italians’ nationalities, but you had Irish and you had Jewish. Frances: Yeah, Irish, Jewish, and Italians, and that’s it. Dan: In that particular area. Frances: And there wasn't nothing else but that particular area where Dad’s store was, was of Italian extraction, almost everybody there. The only Italian church was there, most functions were right around, so—as I said, as far as my dad, Uncle Nick was more political, more social than my dad. My dad was more of the business element of Italian people, so he therefore spoke English, but it was broken, you know—he could write. Dan: But of course the clientele he dealt with, I mean, probably couldn't speak anything but Italian. Frances: Right. Dan: And of course your mother was an interpreter. Frances: Yeah, many of the new citizens. Dan: And you say what year your Dad retired? How many years was he in business down there? Frances: Ah— Dan: Just approximately. Frances: Wait a minute, when did Kennedy get shot? Dan: About fifteen years ago. Frances: That’s when Dad retired, so Dad would be 90, ah, he died in 1971. About 1966, he closed because he got sick. Dan: 1966. Frances: I think that’s when he quit. He opened his business in 1915. Dan: Now this bank that your uncle established, ah, that was the only Italian bank—there hasn't been one since, has there? Frances: I think there was, ah, I'm not quite sure. [To Barbara, her sister] Was Mr. Buono—? [Back to Dan] I don't think there was, actually. It might not have been licensed, actually, I couldn't say—Mr. Buono had something to do with savings or something like that, but Uncle Nick was actually a licensed, a private bank, you know, like First City. From 1912 to 1926. Dan: But he was a very, very astute businessman. Must have been—you figure coming here in 1887, coming to Broome County in 1897, and going back to Italy in 1926 is only about 30 years and he's made, he's made his fortune. Frances: He owned some property like my dad did, and buildings like that and investments, whatever they were. Like I say, he always said when he was 52 he was going to retire, and he did—actually, he was 50. Dan: He was 50 years old when he retired. Frances: And he lived to be what, about 82. Dan: No Social Security in those days, either. Frances: No, they did it all on their own. If they had anything, they worked hard for it and they saved for it. Dan: Yeah they must have, working at $7.00 a week—a day, rather, $7.00 a day. Frances: That was high pay, because I can remember my mother saying that she worked for $7.00 a week and my dad was getting $7.00 a day.  Dan: $7.00 a day, so you figure that times five, that was pretty good money. Because EJ, I mean, they were $4.00. $3.50 or $4.00 a day or something like that. Frances: In those days. Dan: Well, that was back in the early part, well, you know in about 1935, something like that, ‘36, they were getting about $35.00 a week—that would be about $7.00 a day. Frances: Mother said that she worked in a cigar factory for $7.00 a week. Dan: Your mother did. Frances: When she came from Pennsylvania. Dan: Oh yeah, what factory did she work in? Frances: It was down there near the old EJ factory there in Johnson City. Wasn't there one in Binghamton—a cigar factory? Dan: This was at one time the cigar factory of the world. Frances: Yeah, almost everybody worked there—she said they came up from Pennsylvania. They took the train down to Lestershire, they used to call it. Dan: Yeah, that was the forerunner of Johnson City. Frances: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of little details, like right now I could say—your mind is gone. We had one session before you started this and I went blank, really. Dan: Now, this paper that Barbara has here goes into detail. Frances: More in detail about my uncle. Dan: Your uncle, how he was knighted, etc. If I could take or borrow that, Barbara, and have it Xeroxed and return it to you and that would be sort of a memorabilia that would go along with this transcription—? Frances: Actually, my uncle was the head of the Italian community at that time. I mean like everybody has one person and he sort of was the overseer of a lot of Italian doings, like the Church—the beginning of St. Mary’s Church—my uncle was involved. Dan: Was he one of the founders of the Church? Frances: In fact, there was a lot to it that we don't go into details—the facts are, he was a trustee for a long, long time but he, ah, I think he had a lot to do with, actually, of the building of St. Mary’s Church and money raising, fundraising at that time, and being a man like you say, position, he had a lot of influence and social work like fundraising during World War I. See, Dan, I have this thing. This is, my mother had it all these years, ah, it was in the Binghamton Press. I kept it—I like to put it in a frame so it don't— Dan: Oh, it’s your uncle. You might get that laminated, Frances. Frances: I don't know the date that’s on it—19—what is it? Dan: 1923. Frances: He was knighted in ’22. Socially and politically, he was a very well-known man and I think he did great service. Dan: But your dad, you know, worked on the Courthouse. Frances: I know he worked on the Press Building, not sure of the Courthouse. Dan: But your uncle— Frances: Our uncle worked on the Courthouse. Dan: You don't know where, I mean. Frances: He was a foreman—he had men under him. Dan: He had men under him when it was built. Frances: Whether he actually worked on it, I don't know—whether that thing says anything. No, he was a foreman, now, whether he did actual, as he was engaged as a stonecutter on that building until its completion. Dan: Well then he did—probably a working foreman. Frances: Yeah, that’s probably what they had, more like, today you’re a foreman you don't do the—but I also remember my uncle saying that he worked on a house on Riverside Drive—supposedly over a doorway, and you know, to this day, I think I know the house but I never ventured up to look and see what kind of work is on that front door. Dan: You know there is a house on Riverside Drive that’s made out of stone, completely out of stone, and that was the Pratt mansion. Frances: Is it the lower part of Riverside Drive towards the bridge? Dan: Right, right, right. It’s on the right hand side as you're going toward Johnson City and it’s on the right. Frances: That might be it. He said he worked on, over the doorway of one of those houses and I never took the time. Dan: That’s the only one there to my recollection, the only one there that’s all stone. Frances: Does it have a porch on the right hand side? Dan: On the right hand side I think there is a porch and there’s a breezeway on kind of, you know, on the left hand side. Frances: I'll bet my dad—that seems to be the one, but he never showed me, he told me, so I can't really say that’s the one. Dan: That’s your dad? Frances: No, that’s my uncle. Dan: Your uncle, your uncle did more of the stonemasonry than your dad did, didn't he? Frances: No, I wouldn't say that. My dad was more of a tradesman. Dan: I thought he was more in the grocery business. Frances: No, no, my dad was more so, as I say, just working on that particular building, on the Kilmer, on the Press Building, was really the big thing because that took a number of years, 1904 to 1910—before 1904. Like he told me four months over the archway. No, I think my uncle was more of a businessman, rather, that was a trade and most of these, my father and his two brothers—that was a way of life in the area that they came from—it was something the whole people in that community, that they were all stonecutters—they were some of the best in southern Italy. Dan: Now this is the homestead of your dad? Original homestead? Frances: Well, we've been here for fifty-some years. You mean on Court Street? No, we used to live on Fayette Street. Dan: Oh, did you? Frances: Sure, when I went to St. Mary’s School, where did I go? Dan: I don't remember. Frances: Don't you remember the box of macaroni I used to have to bring to the main altar? Mother and Dad used to reside on Henry Street. The greatest part of our life was on Fayette Street and here. We've been here since 1928. So I would say that a good length of time. But Dad went into the grocery business, I guess, I mean his own grocery business, when he married Mother in 1915. Dan: 1915. Frances: And he built, saved his money and built that building in 1916 when we went into 9 Fayette Street, and that’s when really his business started to, you know, he went into big scale. Dan: In wholesale he probably sold to a lot of stores around. Frances: He sold Arlington, and he supplied a lot of restaurants around here with Italians and the Arlington. You see, Dad also had his own name brand—the Gallo Brand Macaroni, the Gallo Brand Olive Oil, tomatoes. So they used to come in big trucks and deliver macaroni like they do now and Dad used to go, like the Arlington Hotel—he used to be the salesman and my mother would take care of the store. Community Coffee Shop used to buy from him—remember that? Dan: Sure. Frances: But way back even, like I say, I don't know whether the Mohican, but oh, yes, I remember delivering, ah, one of my boyfriends at that time, we delivered some macaroni to the Mohican. They bought my dad's name brand, Gallo brand. Dan: So what did he have, a jobber that processed this stuff for him? Frances: He had his own seal on it—the rooster, which, that was the symbol. “Gallo” means a rooster. Dan: I see. Frances: So the sticker on it would show the rooster, a Gallo name brand, but Dad had his own wholesale. He was a good salesman and then, as I say, he always felt, he said he never wanted to work for anyone—he wanted to be an independent person and that’s what he did. After, you know, after years of wholesaling, of course his health didn't permit him to go on—he had that miner's lung, but that was his trade in Europe. They must have thought that Binghamton was the place for opportunity, because they remained here and all their ancestors came here. Dan: Well, that’s fine. Frances: I don't know how much we helped you on this. Dan: Well, you helped a lot and as you say— Frances: Well, I think my dad, more than my uncle, my dad's life was limited, I mean he was a businessman—he dealt in real estate. Dad had quite a bit of real estate. Dan: Yeah, but the fact that he did have the wholesale part of the grocery trade and sold the different places which we are all familiar with. Frances: Oh, they knew, my dad had, I have people in Endicott today, many with grocery stores, and they said, “Oh, I remember your dad, we used to buy from him,” because he had all the imports, see, like Italian cheese and that smelly dried-up—remember? You don't remember, I went to school smelling like crazy—but you know, that dried cod fish, you know, things like that, it was all import stuff and you couldn't get it anyplace else except from my father in those days. Now, maybe there was a man on Susquehanna Street. Milasi, now that was another businessman, really, but what they contributed, I don't know. Dan: Yeah, but he came after your dad, ah, long after—your dad was probably the pioneer. Frances: I guess they were, there were a few of them—you know, Danny, another thing, my Uncle Jerry Lombardi—when you think about it, he was even before my father, but God bless his soul, he's dead now but you know Susquehanna Street where they used to have the dog pound? They used to have a hotel there and they had a grocery store way back in those times. Mary must be seventy now, isn't she, and my uncle had this hotel, like a hotel and a grocery store and all that back in those days. Well, you could combine things—in those days you could do that, you know. But there were quite a few Italian people who contributed, you know, in the early days. I think my uncle was the one as an old-timer, and then there were a lot in the time of my father, you know, who contributed, and I said the only thing that my dad can stand out in my mind was, he was a good businessman but that’s all I can say. Dan: That’s good, I appreciate you taking the time out and coming all the way from Endicott. I hope the weather is good going back. Frances: Danny. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frances Kuryla Subject The topic of the resource Kuryla, Frances -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Italians -- United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Stone-cutters; Grocery trade Description An account of the resource Frances Kuryla relates the immigration of her father, Michael Gallo and her uncle Nichola Gallo from Italy. Kuryla's father and uncle believed that they would have a better opportunity to practice their trade as stonecutter, in the United States. Nichola Gallo arrived in 1887 and started as a stone cutter. He left this profession to charter the first Italian bank and was involved in assisting immigrants with his steamship travel agency and money exchange program. On his retirement he closed the bank. Kuryla's father immigrated later (1900) and also worked as a stonecutter. He then opened a wholesale grocery business and had his own line of food under the Gallo label. He later took over the steamship agency and money exchange program from his brother, Nichola. The two brothers often assisted Italian immigrants with financial and personal issues. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 69A ; Recording 69B Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kuryla, Frances ; O'Neil, Dan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-13 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33:42 Minutes ; 00:24 Seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Levine, Herbert Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-09-15 Subject LCSH Levine, Herbert -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Endicott (N.Y.); Russians -- United States; Jews; Syracuse University; Korean War, 1950-1953; Jewelry trade; Jewelry stores Ruby and Sons; Van Cotts Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:42 Minutes ; 14:36 Minutes ; 21:13 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56078">Interview with Herbert Levine</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Herbert Levine Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 15 September 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to Herbert Levine of Hazard Hill Rd., Binghamton, [New York] on September 15, 1978. Herbert: Is the microphone in here? Nettie: Herb, will you tell us about your life and experiences in the community?  Herbert: Yeah, well, let me just use this as a guide. Okay? [clears throat] Um, first, I think we ought to talk about my father's background in, uh…in Europe. My father was born in Kharkov in Russia, actually the Ukraine. And, um…as a youngster, the family later moved to Kiev - where he grew up. My father went to school until age 12 or 13. He went to a Russian school during the day, and at 3:00 in the afternoon went to a Hebrew school where he learned to read Hebrew and to, uh, learn about the, you know, prayers of the Jewish religion. After, um….after leaving school, at about 13 years of age, he  went to work as an, uh, an apprentice to a German jeweler who lived in Russia - and just as we used to read about in the days of Charles Dickens, he lived in this man's place and slept on the floor and ate the food that was left over and that's, that’s what he did. And, ah, it's hard for us today to visualize just how they treated, eh, someone who was an apprentice. But he, he told of how one time he looked over the man's shoulder as he was working on a watch and fixing a watch - and the guy just knocked him for a loop and said, "Lookit: When I'm ready to have you know what I'm doing - I'll show you. Until then, you just sweep the floor and do what you're supposed to do." So, so that's what it was. Um, [clears throat] part of the interesting background that my father's family was that his mother died when he was eight years old, leaving four children. Uh, for a father to bring up four young children in, in Europe at that time was almost impossible, so he married a woman who was a widow. And she had four children. So together, there was, eh, four of our kids, and four, uh…four of my kids, four of your kids [laughs], and then they had three children. So there was a family of 11…uh, let me see…10 of whom came here. 10 children and a mother and father left Russia in 1905 to, uh, come to America. Uh, the reason they left Russia at that time was that, uh, unrest was already beginning. The workers were beginning to march in protest against  the Czar - the seeds of the rebellion, the revolution was starting. There was a  tremendous pressure against the Jewish community. My father tells of meeting out in the woods where they had protest meetings, complaining about the Czar, and what they're doing, and how the Cossacks used to come riding on horses with whips and swinging, uh, whips around their heads and chasing the people through the woods after them, so they used to, used to get out. So the young, Jewish people, at that time, were conscripted into the army - were just drafted into  the army - were put into the army for 20 - 25 years. His grandfather, he  recalled, who lived with them as a boy, 10 - 12 years old was conscripted  into the Russian army and served in the Russian army for 25 years. During  this period of time, on numerous occasions, uh, somebody, I don't know who - whether they be soldiers, whatever - were interested in converting him to Christianity. And to make him bow down to the cross. Well, one of the facets, tenets of the Jewish religion, is that our interpretation of the Ten Commandments is that you don't bow down to anything, and it means don't bow down. So it means Jewish people don't bow. And he - my father's grandfather - used  to show us the whip marks - scars on his back where he was whipped - to try to make him bow down and he just wouldn't do it. Never did. And so, that, that certainly re-enforced their, ah, feelings of religion because if their grandfather suffered through that, there’s something that you weren't going to give up in a hurry. But, he left Russia at the age 15 - together with, uh, with all his family. And they left, came, you know, steerage - they took every, almost all the money they had, um, to pay for their way to come to America. And, um, and to America, they came. They landed in Ellis Island, as did most of the immigrants at that time: 1905. And there was a slight problem with my father's health. They checked his lungs and they weren’t too happy about it; they were almost to send them back  because they were concerned about TB - tuberculosis. But, they finally let  him through. When they came to America, they were greeted by some sort of a cousin, distant cousin or something who was going to set him up in business. And they gave him whatever money they had left and he just ran off with it. So that took care of all the money they had. Like many immigrants at that time, they settled in the lower East Side of New York City. All these people - 10 children and a father and mother - in a little, tiny apartment. And everybody went out to get a job. My father, having worked in a jewelry business, went to work at age 15 in a factory, in a jewelry factory that made watch cases - pocket watch cases. And he was a polisher, just as you see a guy working on shoes in E.J. polishing all day long? That's what he did; he worked on a polishing machine. We have to realize, at this time, that he came here speaking only Russian, Ukrainian and German - those were the only languages he knew at 15 when he came here. So, uh, he went to night school in New York City to learn English to be able to get along as best he could. Incidentally, they never spoke Jewish or Yiddish because the Russian Jews who came to America thought it was nekaltoorne - it was not cultured to speak a low language like Yiddish. So in their homes, they spoke Russian. And they continued to. So at age 15, he, he worked in this factory. And, uh, did for a couple, three years until he started having trouble with his lungs. It was working in the sweatshop with no ventilation and so for forth - it wasn't good for his health. So his father suggested to him he oughta work outside where it's, uh, health, er, healthy and vigorous. So my dad went to a school that was organized at that time by a Baron de Hirsch - was a wealthy Jewish philanthropist - set up a school to teach agriculture in New Jersey. And went to this agriculture school for two years, studying agriculture and  horticulture. He said he didn't do too well in the theoretical parts of it because he did have trouble in the reading and writing, but when it came to the practical year - working with trees, vegetables, and so forth - he was top of his class. After taking this training, he was placed on a farm up near Rochester. And he worked on this farm, but he really found out that the farm life wasn't for him. He could remember that the farmer paid him very little and, and he really didn’t get much to eat. And he tells me how they used to go into the chicken coop and take a little pin prick and pick, prick a couple holes in the eggs, and- Nettie: [chuckles] Herbert: [chuckling] suck out the eggs, and put it back, in the egg, in the egg shell, back in the chicken's nest. Whatever.  But that, that didn't work out too well; he really didn't enjoy being a farmer. And so he went to Syracuse at this time. And his older brother - my uncle - married a woman in Syracuse whose family was in the jewelry business. And they were in the jewelry business such that they did business house to house - face to face with people. Not just in Syracuse, but around the upstate New York area. So my father was given a route and he went out with a suitcase full of jewelry. And he went one day to Rome, to Ilion, to Herkimer - in that general neck of the woods. And he developed a route, just like the Jewel Tea man did. Went to people's homes, and met them, and spoke with them. Now, one of the advantages that he had was his ability with languages because he came to America speaking Russian and Ukrainian very easily. He was able to pick up other Slovak languages enough to get along - Polish and Slovak. Uh, he spoke German because he had a background in German, and it wasn't too long before he was able to pick up Italian. And he was able to get along and, and…and if he didn't know what a word was, he would just show a thing to a person - an earring, necklace, whatever - he had to learn these words, you know. And the people told him what it was, you know. Koletso [sic]. He knew what it was, but in, in Italian they told him what a ring was, what an earring was. So he was able to sell the thing. In those days credit was very important because, uh, these were just working people, really. And, uh…so, they would buy something and pay for it a little bit each week - you would come back  to see them [cough], you were invited in the home - if a christening, a wedding or  birthday or gift was coming up or something, they would say to him, "Ruby, why don't  you bring something next week because I have a special gift coming up?"  My father's name was Rubin Levine - uh, Ruven (R-U-V-E-N), I guess is how it, how it was in Russian. And we have his birth certificate, and it’s interesting to see the name Levine spelled in Russian - because Levine in Russian is spelled with five letters (L-A-V-E-N). “E” is a hard sound; an “e”, a Russian “e,” is a hard sound, “e.” There was a meakhnozak [sic] at the end, you know? Nettie: Yes. Herbert: But anyway, there was a hard “e” sound. And so today, when you see people's names - “Levine,” sometimes it appears as “Levin” (L-E-V-I-N) because they just took one letter from each letter in the Russian alphabet and called it “Levine.” And it came out in English, “Levin.” To make it sound like “Levine,” in our case, they put a [sic] “e” on the end. So it would, instead of…it really sounds like “Leh-vine...” Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: If you pronounce it exactly. Some people spell it  L-E-V-E-N-E, with an “e” on the end. Nettie: Oh, nice. Herbert: Maybe keeping it “Levine.” But I, I've asked him if it ever was Levinsky or anything like it, but it  wasn't Levinsky. It was really Levine, which is an old, old Hebrew word; it comes from the Levites. The Levites, if you read the first testament, they were priests and Levites who took care of the Temple in the early days. And that's where the names Levi; Livi; Levin; Levine comes from - sort of a historic thing. But, [clears throat] where were we? He, he was working in Syracu-out of Syracuse, traveling to Ilion, Rome, so forth, when World War I came along. And, uh, having never served in the Army - boom! - first thing you know - away he went. Uh, let's just see what it was [clears throat] - in 1917, I think, 1917 or 1918 is when he went. So he went into the army at 27 - 28 years of age - no youngster. And, uh, went through training, was assigned to a machine gun battalion, was sent to France. In France, uh, he learned French because he had this ability to pick up languages. Uh, spent some time in France. He was wounded; received the Purple Heart. Spent some time in the hospital in France. And, uh, came back finally. And, ‘bout a year and half later, in 1919. Uh, from the army, a veteran. Decided, well, maybe he would go back to Syracuse where he left off and go into business - in the jewelry business. Uh, lo and behold, he found that, number one: He was replaced. [chuckles] There was a man who was traveling the same route that he was and he told everybody he was Ruby's brother. “Ruby’s in the army - I'll ta-I’ll take care, I’m his brother.” So he stole all of his customers; this guy took all his customers. Secondly, his actual brother, who was  the son-in-law in this business, wasn't that happy with him coming back to settle permanently in Syracuse. So my father heard of the Triple Cities - he heard of this place, you know, eight-80 miles away from Syracuse that was filled with shoe workers, and new immigrants, and workers, and there was, uh, a busy, thriving, growing community. So in the spring of 1919, 1919…he came to Binghamton. And he, uh, had a house - had a room, lived in a rooming house. I guess on Carroll St./Susquehanna St., someplace. And he opened up an office in the Press Building. At that time, there were many jewelers operating out of the Press Building - some with little shops, there manufacturing jewelers, watch makers - and he decided he would start from scratch. And, and as he did before out of the Syracuse area, he went house to house, people's homes- introduced himself; came in; sat down; told them he was a jeweler; he would be happy to sell them things; had nice things - and through his personality and his ability to get along, speaking all of these seven or eight languages…it was easy for him to make contact with, with, uh, immigrants. And, and by treating people fairly and honestly, little by little, his reputation  grew as an honest man. And, uh, and his business became established. He met my mother in  the early 20's…and, uh, [clears throat] let's see…1922, [cough] moved to Endicott. He decided Endicott didn't have anywhere as many jewelers as Binghamton did and perhaps, it  would be better to be in a smaller community and be more important than being  in Binghamton with a lot of jewelers. So, he came to Binghamton - opened a business and still continued to go visiting his customers door to door. However, i-it was difficult- tough on his stomach because in those days everybody made their own wine. And [coughs] when you were invited into someone's house, you had to accept their hospitality, and accepting their hospitality meant drinking whatever they had to offer was. After doing that eight - 10 - 15 times, you came home upset to your stomach and pretty sick. And my mother said, "Hey, you better cut this out. If you’re gonna be in business, these people better come see you. If they're not interested enough in comin’ to see you, then [chuckles] that's just too bad." Nettie: [chuckles] Herbert: So, so he stopped going out house to house. Maybe did on Sundays, but he, uh, but he did…uh, organize his own business and had a business where people came to him. One of his first drivers was a, a young man who liked to drive a car. His name was Sammy Moriello. Now, I don't know if you remember the name. But, he was a very notable youngster in Endicott's history. He was a, a [sic] Air Force ace. He was a pilot and, and an ace - I don’t know how many planes you had to shoot down. I think he was later killed flying. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: But, he was, ah, he used to drive my father from house to house and door to door so that he was able to, uh, have more freedom to take care of his business and his customers. During this period of time, you know, in the early 20s - Endicott was  sort of rough and tumble. There were all kinds of things going on, and it probably wasn’t the most, uh, civil, organized, uh, community way of life. If there was a police chief with one or two policemen, that was probably a lot. And there was a lot of robbery and, and such things going on. [coughs] He told a story, one day, of going to someone's home, he knocked on the door, and the man lets him in - some place on the north side of Endicott - and the man…my father has a little suitcase full of jewelry. The man pulls out a gun and points it to my father, and he says, "You know, Ruby?” He says, “I could let you have it right now.” He said, “But, I'm not going to because they told me that you’re a [sic] okay guy and to leave you alone." And so, that's just what they did. They, uh, they did leave him alone and never bothered him. Throughout the many years that I worked with my dad in 1953 - 1965, uh, I used to ask him about those times and what went on. And of course, he could understand everything everybody spoke: He could understand Italian; Russian; Polish; Slovak. Many people were speaking Italian…but he never repeated stories. I used to ask him  about Barbara and what- Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: -went on in those days, but he never used to talk about it. He said, "Some things you listen and ya, and you don't repeat.” And he said, “That’s how you [laughs] get along in this world." Nettie: [laughs] Herbert: And, and so, that's, that’s what he did. Um, just briefly on my mother's background - she was born in Syracuse. Her family came to America. Perhaps, uh, 20 years before my father's family did, coming from Austria-Hungary. And this family, also, again, 10 children. Her mother and father came and settled in Syracuse, New York…and, uh, were brought up there. These children had much more of an education. My mother went to high school; graduated from high school; worked as a secretary in the Syracuse area before coming to Binghamton. So, uh, culturally, uh, they were on a different plateau. Uh, they spoke Yiddish in their home. Especially when my grandfather died at an early age. But, the grandmother spoke to her Jewish and Yiddish quite often. Um, so my mother certainly had no ability to speak foreign languages other than, uh, a little bit of Jewish and, uh, and English. In our home growing up, the youngsters once in a while, the only time they ever resorted to a foreign language is when they didn't the children to understand. Nettie: [chuckles] Herbert: As happens in, in so many families. From the beginning, I think my father's whole concept of business was to present a feeling of interest in his customers. That he was concerned about them - that he gonna treat them right and be honest. And, and, uh…to his very last year, as I can recall in Endicott talking to people as we stood there, standing beside him - and, and he told customers in whatever language that he was speaking that he wasn't going to leave his children a million dollars, but he was going to leave them an honest name. And, and this was really his, uh, his whole concept. And I think, you know, a very valid one for, uh, for running a business today. Uh, my dad was very much involved in the community. Uh, during the war years, I recall…well, let's go back. He, he became a Mason and was involved in Masonry, which was a, a very big thing. Interestingly enough, although Masonry was a very strong Protestant movement, Masonry did allow Jewish people to belong to it. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: Catholic people didn't, but Jewish people did. And, uh, and so, at Round Hill Lodge in Endicott, my father became very much involved - was in Consistory, a member of the shrine, and took much pride in, in participating. I can recall that, ah, my father always was interested in going to adult education courses in UE High School, way, way back. Uh, courses were given on current events, and world politics, and national politics. And, and, uh, rarely did he miss attending one of those types of courses. Like many people who, uh, came up from nothing, my  father knew very little about hobbies. He didn't play cards, play golf, gamble - he, he really just, uh, worked. Had a little garden - took care of his garden. And, uh, between the energies that he consumed - bringing up his family; being a father; and working; and taking care of his house...that, that took care of everything. Uh, in those days, of course, a six day week existed in a retail business. There was no such thing as a vacation. We never went on a vacation for a week or two because to go on a vacation would’ve meant to close the business and that, that just was never done. So I have to admire greatly those people who came before us, such as my father and,and his many friends and customers. Because, you know, these people were of two worlds and of two cultures. They lived in, in America, in Endicott. And they were able to keep up with the problems of  the community, and the state, and the nation, and so forth. But at the same time, they never lost touch with what happened in the Old World. And they were able to talk with someone about Europe, and what went on there and what is going on there - at the same time as keeping track of what was going on in America. They lived in two worlds. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: And sometimes, we, who have an opportunity to go to college, uh, think that we have it all, but we really don't. We probably have, ah, just a finger, thumbnail full of background of knowledge compared to what these people did who were have enough, you know, to pick up their whole family. 10 children, a husband and wife - go to a place where they couldn't even speak the language and didn't know what was ahead of them. It was, uh, an amazing - it was an amazing chore, but everybody did it in those days. I guess, I guess it, you just took a chance. Today, people are worried about moving to Charlotte, North Carolina; and they’re debating and going - and you know, it's a, it’s a big challenge. Here, people left to go to a new country. And didn't know what was ahead of ‘em - didn't know, didn’t know what was coming  Uh…now, how did I happen to end where I am?  Uh, I went to college in Syracuse University in 1945. And, uh, my parents thought that certainly, anyone who is able ought to go to college and be educated and be something. My father said, "Well, why don't you become an optometrist? Ya know?” Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: “And I'll put a little place for ya in the back of the store. I'll tell all my friends-” Nettie: [laughs] Herbert: “-you know, my son’s here, you’ll take care of him." In those days, Rudolph's had an optometrist - uh, you used to get your glasses in a jewelry store. That was the thing to do. Hilkins, which was one of the oldest - the oldest jewelry store in Endicott - was originally an optical place and a jeweler. That's what Mr. Hilkins needs, an optician; and that's how they got into business. So in those days, at least on that particular point, I didn't argue. So I went to Syracuse University and took the necessary courses to go to study optometry at Columbia University. In those days, you went to college for two years and then studied optometry for two years.  And so, I underwent some courses in math; in calculus; in physics; in chemistry; in scientific German; whatever I needed to do. And, uh, applied to get into Columbia. Just at the time I applied, all the veterans were returning  from the war, and I was a youngster who just went to college at just being, just a little over16 years old…so that I was only 18 years when all the veterans of 24 - 5 - 6 - 8 were coming out of the service. They were given preference and I didn't get in. I really wasn't too sad because I, I really [laughs]…it wasn't my idea in the first place - it was father's. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: So I continued my education, and majored in sociology which I found very interesting, and studied about world population problems and, and ethnic backgrounds and all the things that we’re interested in today. Juvenile delinquency, criminology, and so forth. It, it was an interesting way to, to see life. I was very much involved in the  campus activities, and the dean knew my name, and the chancellor knew my name. And, however, very - hardly a teacher knew who I was. I wasn't the most excellent student. But, upon graduation, I thought certainly the world had - is looking for a guy  like me with all these talents, and abilities, and so forth. And, and I went out to look for a job. During this period of time, I’d met the girl who later became my wife, and, uh, she was interested in seeing me get established and get going. And so, the pressure was on. So upon graduation from college, I had to do something. And lo and behold, there weren't too many jobs available in 1949. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: But, uh, because I helped my father after school, and a, maybe couple summer vacations, in the jewelry business, I ended up getting a job with Kay Jewelers. Which at the time had its headquarters in Washington, D. C. In 1949, Kay Jewelers was the largest jewelry chain in the country. And they had a training  program for young people, such as myself. So, so I went to Rochester, N. Y. where I went to work as a trainee for $45.00 a week. And I worked six days a week; the store was open two nights and we trimmed a window one night. So I worked three nights a week and our manager liked to work every Sunday morning. So I worked every Sunday morning as well. So that was an interesting introduction to how- [Both laugh] Herbert: -how to have to work for a living. I didn't have a car, and I used to ride back and forth on a bus and lived in a room in a rooming house. And many times didn't talk to anybody from the day I left the s-time I left the store ‘till the next morning. Because I'd go to a restaurant and have something to eat, went home, and went to a movie, and that’s about it. But a year later, I was married. My wife and I settled in, in Rochester and she worked across the street in the Girl Scout office, and I in the, in the Kay Jewelers. And there I was until I was rescued from this terrible fate because I really didn't enjoy the level of the business. It was a credit business doing business with, um, uh, the black population. At that time, I felt they were really being taken advantage of - 50¢ down, 50¢ a week, selling things to people who couldn't afford it. It was, uh, it was not a nice thing to get off. But I was rescued by all this by Uncle Sam who said, "You'd better come with  me," because Korea had just started and I was about to get drafted. So I entered the U.S. Coast Guard where I went to Officer Candidate School - later became an officer and skipper of a Coast Guard cutter in Norfolk, Virginia. I stayed in  Norfolk, Virginia for two years. Didn't know quite what to do - maybe I’d go to law school, maybe I’d do something; go back to get a graduate degree in business. When my father wrote me a note one day- Nettie: [clears throat] Herbert: -that he was going to buy a jewelry store - Abraham’s Jewelry and, and Luggage Store - on Chenango St. And said, “You’ll come home - we'll have a second store, you’ll be en [sic], it’ll be terrific.” So we made plans to come to Endicott, and to move there, and to settle. And now we have a youngster: Our oldest son, uh, Rick. And we were all set to come when my dad called to say, “The deal fell through, but come here, anyway.” So come home, anyway, we did. And we lived in Endicott in a, on a house on McKinley Avenue. I went to work joining my father’s business in 1953. I stayed with him, working with him side by side from 1953 until he died in 1965. Our, after our parents died in ‘55 and ‘56, my brother and I remained owners of Ruby & Sons. And in 1969, uh, Kenneth Van Cott had decided to retire. At first, my brother Carl and I were both going to, uh, buy this store and run them together. But, as we worked out the details, it appeared that we would be much better off if, uh, each of us had our own business. So I bought Van Cott's, selling my interest to the Endicott store to Carl. So as of the past nine years, Carl owns Ruby & Sons and I own Van Cott' s, and we're best friends, and it works out, works out very, very good. Um, after getting involved in the jewelry business, one of the first things I did was to  start taking courses in gemology and diamond study because it appeared to me from the very start that, that Mr. Van Cott had the right approach on the, on the jewelry business. He was a professional and he was an expert; he was a registered jeweler in the American Gem Society. And it appeared that that's the kind of person you should be: If you’re going to be a jeweler, be first class in all the way. So we sort of copied everything he did in, in organizing our store and changing it from a credit store to what we call a fine jewelry store. And so we copied everything in Endicott to make our store as close as it could be to Van Cott’s. So now our two stores are similar in character. Uh, Van Cott's still has a tradition that goes way back to the early 1900s as the- Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: -quality store in Binghamton. And we still have customers coming in, uh, as a result of that. But we, I did become a registered jeweler in the American Gem Society, and for a number of years it was just Mr. Van Cott and myself who held this title. Today in our store we have two other young men plus myself who hold the title of, uh, of registered jeweler. Nettie: [coughs] Herbert: At the present time, I am on a board of directors at the American Gem Society- one of 12 jewelers in the whole country who was elected to this post. I am also serving this year as president of the New York State Retail Jewelers’ Association, uh, for the second year in a row. So I think being involved in, in organizations and in the jewelry business is very much important. Incidentally, uh, there's a third generation of Levine’s involved in the, the jewelry. Our son, Bill, who graduated from Syracuse University two years ago, is now in California at the Gemological Institute of America where he teaches  courses in diamond study and diamond grading. People from all over the world come to take these courses. And he's been there now going on two years and enjoys very much what he’s doing. He's become quite a speaker and traveled to Kansas, and to Missouri - addressing retail jewelers’ groups on how important it is to be a professional jeweler and, and have the knowledge and ability that is required to grade diamonds and gem stones. The jewelry business today keeps going on, and will go on forever because from day one - from the very first time when a primitive cave man looked down and saw a shiny pebble that shined just a little bit more than the rest, he put it in his little pouch  and saved it because it looked special. And if he liked someone extra special, maybe he even gave that little, beautiful, polished stone to him or to her to show his feelings. And jewelry throughout the years has done the, just that: It has conveyed people's feelings and emotions. I'm not sure that people even felt stronger about how much they would put into a piece jewelry years ago than today. My father had told me how to give, to be a godparent of a child was a very big  thing a couple generations ago - 50 years ago. When you were named as the godparent of a child, it was an honor that, that you know - above everything. You bought all of the children's  clothes, and you did everything and, and…if he was a boy, you bought him a pocket watch. And my father would tell me how people would buy a beautiful pocket watch - which today are back in style - and people would spend $50.00. $50.00 on a solid gold pocket watch. And these people didn't make good…$20.00 a week. Can you  imagine that? They spent 2 and a half weeks’ money on a christening gift. That’s today like giving somebody - I don't know - a $500.00 christening gift. You wouldn’t think of it. So…I'm not so sure that even though we give jewelry today, I don't think we stretch our, the limits of our involvement as much as we did way back when, when we realized that we wanted to give something extra special. And it would be nothing - I can recall in the early 50s when we did a lot of business with Endicott Johnson workers - for an Endicott Johnson worker to buy a Christmas gift for $50…for wife or husband to give a gift to each other…and in those days, usually both people worked in the factory. And they came in on a Friday afternoon with their paycheck; Friday afternoon, they came in and paid on their account with their paycheck, and they cashed their checks. Rarely was the check over $50.00. And they paid $1.00 on  their account. They paid $1.00. It would take a whole year to pay for their Christmas gift. And they never missed a week because the Endicott Johnson people had this  reputation for being most credit-worthy and being very, very responsible. For, uh, even though they didn’t make big incomes, when they accepted an obligation, they accepted it, uh, very wholeheartedly. And they very rarely backed down on it. One time, though, he, my father told me of an incident where a man didn't - wasn't quite so honest. And he bought one of these big, beautiful pocket watches I'm talking about which was $100.00 with chain and gold chain, a pocket watch. And…he sold it. My father sold it on credit, as he often did - this is without a credit bureau - nobody called the credit bureau, [laughs] nobody called anything. you looked at a guy - he looked honest, he worked at E.J., so you trusted him. What the heck! But o and behold, the next week, a man came in to my father and said, "Ruby, did you sell a pocket watch to such-and-such a fellow's name?" And he said, "Sure." He says, "Well, you know, he's going back to the Old Country for good. He's leaving town and he's not corning back, and he's taking your watch with him." Well, $100.00 is a lot of money, especially in those days. So my father got on the very early morning Erie train at 4 o’clock in the morning, rode all the way to New York City where the man had told him the name of the ship that this man was going to sail on. So he got there to the ship where the people were loading up - and lo and behold! There's the man. My father said, "What's the big idea? Where's my watch?" It was right there in his pocket. He said, "What kind of guy are you to take - steal that watch from me- take it all the way to Europe?" So he got his watch back. Another interesting story he told is: In 1934, one day, he got a call in the middle of the night from the police department that his store was broken into on Washington Ave. So that, uh, they went down and that’s just what happened; the front door was broken, people gained entrance to the store, and many of the rings, watches, and so forth were in trade, were all taken, strewn around. Almost everything was missing. Well, you didn't have insurance - at least, he didn't have insurance to cover himself that day, and he was really sick. However, the next day, he had a visit from a man, friend, a customer. And he said, "Ruby.” He said, "I know who robbed your store." He said, "And I'll tell you who it is." He said, "I was having a drink in a restaurant last night, and I heard these two fellas talking about doing a job.” “They were gonna do a job? Well, what were they gonna do?” And he [the customer] said, “I don’t know nothin’. They never mentioned the name of the place. But he said, “I’m sure that’s the people." So he told him who it was. And they were arrested, and they were able to recover, uh, some of the things. [phone interruption] Hello? Hello? [hangs up phone] So that was just another instance where my father's, uh, friendly relationships with people, you know, was, was such that, uh… Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: It, it really helped him. And, and, and I think that's probably the most important factor, uh, in the life of those people who, like himself, came and settled in a new country in the early 1900s. They came without a formal background, a formal education, but they, they had a sense of pride and responsibility. Um, when the American Legion had a parade, when Fourth of July came, or Veteran's Day, Memorial Day - it was a big thing. It was a big thing in Endicott and everybody was there. And even though these people, uh, didn't have roots that went back to the, to the Declaration of Independence in 1776, or the Civil War, or anything else… Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: I think these new immigrants felt more strongly about the pride in their country. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: And respect to the flag than, than many of  our children feel today. They take it for granted; we all, we all take it for granted. Um, growing up in Endicott was an interesting experience, and quite often I'm approached by people who are studying economics, and they hear about the terrible monopoly that existed in Endicott when the Johnson family took advantage of all the people, and re-surfed them, and became now - wealthy and millionaires. And I disagree with them heartly [sic] because growing up in Endicott as I did, I don't remember depressions or breadlines…I can remember a couple times people came to our house for something to eat, and my mother would say, "Well, why don't you rake up the leaves and do something?" So they didn’t feel like they were beggars. And, and they would do a little bit of work. And for that, in return she would give them something to eat. But, um…yeah, I think it was just a warm, friendly relationship. People used to sit on the front porches. This is a thing gone - of sitting on a front porch and saying "hello" to your neighbors, and talking to people as they wen up and down the street. Across the street from Endicott…ah, ah, in Endicott on McKinley Ave. was a little bend in McKinley Ave. where an alley is. An, an area was set up there where men used to pitch quoits every night. I don't know if you remember a family - Sutton. Sutton owned a drug store and there was a man named Kent who was an IBM’er…and a man named Bradley. Worked in the tannery; his son, Bob Bradley is head of Maine-Endwell. I think, uh, [of its] physical education department. His son, Tom, has a bar - redheaded - has a bar- Nettie: Yeah. Herbert: -on Arthur Ave., someplace. Anyway, they used to pitch quoits every night. And they went to Nanticoke Creek - we used to call that Nanticoke Crick. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: And I still do. And they got clay and they, they made these, uh, pits. And as youngsters, we used to sit there, they used to play, and we would keep score. Well, this was, this was sort of a community get-together. Everybody went there and, and it was just an informal get-together. But, everyone knew everyone. And I can recall as a youngster that you could go from one block - from Monroe St. to Broad St., behind all the houses on McKinley Ave. There wasn't a fence; there wasn't a fence. And little by little, the fences started coming - and the shrubs and the hedges. Whereas today, you know, we live in the backyard society. Now, if you want to have sun you, you sit in the backyard. And when you’re there, you don't see anybody and nobody sees you. That’s the way we live today. But, growing up in Endicott as we did, you sat on the front porch and watched everyone go by - it was a wonderful  institution. But, getting back to the Johnsons…when we went to a band concert on Sun, on Sunday night, as everybody did, and Mr. George F. used to come, sit in the front row and pass out nickels, or shake hands, or whatever he did…um, he didn't have a body guard that I know of. I don't think anybody was worried he would be shot, or hurt, or anything. Because he really, uh…the people had a love and respect for him. Everybody knew that his door was open; if you had a problem, you went to see Mr. George F. And if you wanted to have a church, a handful of families got together and said, "Look: We'd like to pray in our own, certain way.” And he said, "How much money do you need?" And you had a church. And when the people in the  American Legion wanted to have an American Legion, he said, “Here’s, here’s the money. You know? Build one.” And they had one in Endicott, one in West Endicott, one in Johnson City - wherever they wanted. He saw to it that, uh, the people's basic needs were provided for. It’s amazing how he understood people's basic needs. He knew they wanted their own home, a place to raise a garden, a place for recreation - built these beautiful parks and golf courses. I mean, who would ever think that the best golfers in Endicott 40 years ago used to be fellas who worked in the tannery? And they got out at 1 o'clock because they did all their work, and they used to go, and they used to go to play golf. The best golfers in Endicott used to work in the tannery. I mean, it’s unheard of. Today we think of people at a fancy Country Club who are going to be golfers - you know, the millionaires? In those days, it was the big strong fellows that could pull those hides out of the tanks and had all afternoon to learn to play golf. So that it, uh…it was a wonderful heritage growing up in Endicott. Uh, I think it was a melting pot - people of all, uh, backgrounds, uh, felt that they had something in common. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: And, uh, they shared and helped one another. I don't think there was tremendous bigotry. Uh, growing up as a person of the Jewish religion in Endicott, it was  certainly a tremendous minority. One thing I can remember most vividly is that, in eighth grade, we used to take a course called, “civics.” We used to have to take, “civics” and “citizenship.” It, it was always frightening because those were the first two regents things you took before ninth grade. And everybody had to take civics and citizenship. And I could remember in one of the courses - civics or citizenship - the teacher was trying to have us understand that, the concept of a melting pot. How America consisted of all these people from all different backgrounds who sort of came together. And she said, "You know? It would be a fun experiment if we could see right here in our class what countries are the backgrounds people came from.” So she said, “Let's try this: I'm going to mention these countries, and if you have a parent who came from one of these countries, why don’t you stand up and we’ll see what it is." So she mentioned England - a few people stood up. You know, Scotland; Ireland; Germany; Italy; Czechoslovakia. And they finally got to Russia. And she said, you know, "Anybody's parents who’re from Russia, stand up." And I stood up. Along with four, five, or six kids. And these kids looked at me and said, "Why are you standing up? You're not Russian! You’re Jewish." Nettie: [laughter] Herbert: So it was hard for them to understand that in Russia, some people were Jewish, too. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: They weren’t just, uh, Russian Orthodox or whatever church the Russian people belong to. But, uh, our children probably missed this. And they'll never quite understand what, uh, what it meant to grow up in a community where…I guess everybody started from base zero. And where they got, was closer to, to being close together. And now, after a couple generations, uh, perhaps in a sosh, socio-economic level, uh…some people's children are going off to private schools, and colleges, and living in fancy homes. And, and no longer come in contact with a general mixture of people of all different backgrounds. Of course, the people of the second generation greatly resisted their cultural background. I can recall how customers would come into the store with their parents. And my father would conduct the conversation with their  parent - in Italian, Polish, Slavish or whatever it was - and the kids would listen. And my father would talk to them in their native tongue and the kids would answer back in English. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: He said, “Don't you do that.” He said, “You’re going to be sorry if you don't take advantage of learning this language when you have the chance.” But, so many people - second generation - just wanted  to be Americanized. And they didn't want to be identified with anything old; they just  wanted to be identified with the new. In fact, some of the children, I'm sure, were embarrassed a little bit that their parents spoke with an accent and didn't speak perfect English. And, um, it certainly is nothing to be ashamed of. Because as I mentioned in the beginning, these people are heads and shoulders over us. They understand two worlds and we don't do too much of a job, uh, understanding one. As to my, uh, background and club affiliations? Uh, early in my life, probably one of the most important things in my life I ever did was to get involved with the scouting movement - in boy scouting. Much of my time as a teenager was spent concerning myself as a Boy Scout Troop, Sea Scout Troop. Which incidentally met at the First Methodist Church. And I can recall every Scout Sunday, during Scout Week - on Scout Sunday, I marched into the First Methodist Church with all the other scouts and sat and listened to this church service. Which, you know, was very, uh foreign to me. I listened to it; I wasn't 100% comfortable. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: But, I thought it wouldn't hurt if I did that. And then that was…that’s certainly what we did. On returning to Endicott in 1953, I became involved in Endicott Kiwanis Club - which certainly was a, a rewarding experience. Uh, throughout the years, l’ve been involved in many community activities. Uh, at this time, I happen to be serving as a trustee on the Binghamton Savings Bank, as a trustee on the Board of Binghamton General Hospital, I'm on the Board of WSKG TV and Radio as a trustee. I happen to be involved as President of the Jewish Cemetery Association, as a necessary job someone  has to do. I’ve served in the past year as a Vice-President of the Boy Scouts’ Council. Uh, Vice-President of the Temple of Israel. Uh…I, I try to get involved in as many things as I can. Years ago, I was, uh, President of the Endicott, Vestal-Endwell Chamber of Commerce when we had such an organization. I was Chairman of the Merchants’ Organization when I was in Endicott on Washington Ave. Few years ago, I was Chairman of the Merchants’ Association here on Court Street. But, when we opened our new store at the Oakdale Mall, seemed it wasn't right for me to be Chairman of the Court Street Businessmen…well, because I had two stores, perhaps competing with the Binghamton merchants. How much more time do we have on this tape? Do you know? Nettie: [unintelligible] Herbert: Let's just speak for a few minutes about the, uh, the settlement of the few Jewish families who did settle in Endicott. Um, in the early 1920s, there were probably a handful, maybe 10 - 15 Jewish families who settled in the Endicott area. Most of these were small merchants that had small shops. Some even started out on Washington Ave. with a little store front and, uh, lived in the back of the store. Uh, over the store. I think that, uh, Shapiro's did - Shapiro's Men's Shop. And Lachman's - Buddy Lachman's parents had a haberdashery store. I think this is how they started. Uh, with a store and a little house - a little apartment behind a store or above a store. So this little handful of people became very much involved…they were never large enough to have their own Jewish congregation. Although, the women saw to it that they got together on a regular basis - that the children were given Jewish education. Uh, we used to drive to Binghamton in a car pool, to a Sunday school every Sunday. And during the week, we went to religious instruction after school. The Endicott school system used to provide a classroom for the Jewish people to have Jewish instruction. And I can remember I had to go off after school. The other kids wanted to play ball or something. And Nick Paks, and Paul Kominos, and some of the Greek kids were going to Greek lessons and we were going Hebrew school. And, and we both had to do the same things after school. So the, um…the Jewish people did cling together because they had a common, common heritage. Common background. Uh, without a, a permanent place of religion to worship in. Uh, arrangements were made to rent space in the Odd Fellows Hall. And the Odd Fellows Hall - which was on Riverview Drive right next door to the American Legion - had big rooms above it. And so, during the High Holy days on Yom Kippur; Rosh Hashanah; the Jewish New Years, we would hold, uh, our religious services in this building. On those, these three days. Oftentimes on Sunday afternoons, uh, a get-together would be held. And using the social facilities on the main floor of this Odd Fellows Hall, we would have a joint, uh, dinner, or program, or such. And again, the children knew each other; everyone was sort of together. And, uh, it was quite a, it was quite an involved, close, closely knit community. The day finally did arrive - I believe in the late 1940s when Temple Beth-El was built - my father and a number of other people were most instrumental in seeing that a building was built. A permanent house of worship. And, uh, this building was built, uh, Jefferson Ave., in Endicott. Interestingly enough, uh, the St. Paul's Episcopal Church was going to do some remodeling and the  church had to be shut down. So that the two congregations got together and shared the use of Temple Beth-El on Sundays. The Episcopal people came to use the facilities, and on Friday and Saturday, the Jewish services were held. Uh, uh…for me to get totally into a discussion involving the basis of the Jewish religion probably would take three/four hours, and I don't know if I'm the most capable person to do that. But, I think it is interesting to note that, uh, many of these people who started out in this community have, have grown and, and settled in Broome County and found their way in prominence…uh, Herb Kline, son of Jim Kline Men's Store, is now a very prominent Binghamton attorney. Bud Lachman, also an attorney. Uh, happens to practice in Endicott; lives in Binghamton. Bruce Becker, whose father was an attorney - following in his father's  footsteps. He’s, uh, an attorney today, as well. Irvin Shapiro, who runs a very fine men's store - following in his father's footsteps. My two brothers are in Endicott running a jewelry business - it goes back to 1990. So that you can see that, ah, a number of these people came to the community, stayed and settled. Sandy Salerson, whose father was a, a well known figure on Washington Ave. now works at, uh, - had his own business for a while with his father-in-law, now works in Montgomery Ward in the appliance department. So that, many of these people are still here. Uh, Murray Shapiro - whose father was manager of Rudolph’s for many, many years - still lives in this community. He’s, uh, holds a position at IBM. And you can see that from this tiny, little community evolved a very strong background of, of people who were involved in the community, and they stayed here, and contributed to it. And were lucky enough to share in those early years when, when they got to know the community of Endicott, and, and they grew up with all, with kids from all over. You know, in those days, the north side was a sort of a no-no place. Today, the north side of Endicott has the most beautiful homes, the most beautiful golf course; it’s, uh, the most elegant, lovely place. Upper Taft Ave., is, is just beautiful. Nettie: Mm-hm. And downtown, which used to be so terrific is, is [chuckles] where- Nettie: [lightly chuckles] Herbert: -all the decay is. So it took 50 years for the tables to turn, but, uh, but it certainly did. And it’s interesting to look back on. Okay? Nettie: Yeah, that’s- Herbert: That would give us something to do. Nettie: Mm-hm. Herbert: How ya doin’? Nettie: Well, Herb, this was very interesting interview, I wanna thank you very much. Herbert: Good. It’ll be interesting to see what it all looks like when we’re done. Nettie: Mm-hm. Okay. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Herbert Levine Subject The topic of the resource Levine, Herbert -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Endicott (N.Y.); Russians -- United States; Jews; Syracuse University; Korean War, 1950-1953; Jewelry trade; Jewelry stores Description An account of the resource Herbert Levine talks of his father's family and their immigration from Russia to the United States because of the religious persecution against the Jewish people. The family initially settled in the lower East Side of New York City. Levine's father, who had apprenticed with a jeweler in Russia, was able to find work in a jewelry factory, but left due to ill health. He then went to an agriculture school and upon graduating went to work on a farm for a short period of time. He then settled in Syracuse, NY where he went to work for his brother as a jewelry salesman. Being able to several languages was advantageous in his sales. During World War I he entered the armed services and was wounded. As a result he received a Purple Heart. Upon returning home he settled in the Triple Cities where he became a successful jewelry salesman because he spoke several languages. He later married and opened a jewelry business in Endicott, NY. Levine briefly talks about his mother's family. Levine also discusses his own life. He attended Syracuse University and after graduation went to work for Kay Jewelers until he was drafted during the Korean War. After the war ended he went to work at his father's jewelry business, Ruby and Sons, which he continued to operate after his father's death. He later sold his interest in the store to his brother and then purchased Van Cott's. He discusses his life in Endicott, as a child and as an adult, the Jewish population in Endicott and the organizations he belonged to. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 70 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e65665eed6ed35f6286cba4d12321c71.mp3 653fdadaff9cc49f99cc326501fff782 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6601a42a405c0d053949439a9b06b52.mp3 1e6b427f181b9becca22bf0cd4e3f0a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Macko, George J. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Politylo, Nettie Date of Interview 1978-03-30 Subject LCSH Macko, George -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Czechs--United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Politics; Broome Community College; Broome County (N.Y.). Supervisors, Board of; Binghamton Glass Co.; Olum's Furniture Co.; Glassblowing; Clinton Street neighborhood; First Ward; Interpreter; Broome County Airport; St. Michael's Church Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:03 Minutes ; 10:20 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56083">Interview with George J. Macko</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: George J. Macko Interviewed by: Nettie Politylo Date of interview: 30 March 1978 Nettie: This is Nettie Politylo, interviewer, talking to George J. Macko of 36 LaGrange Street, Binghamton, NY, on March 29, 1978. Mr. Macko, will you tell me about the experiences of your people coming here from Europe—coming here—etc.? George: Ready? Nettie: Yes. George: My dad and mother was born in what they call now Czechoslovakia, a good many years ago. Dad came here to the United States—he landed in Philadelphia in about the year 1888. He walked—he didn't have money enough to pay railroad fare from Philadelphia to Scranton, so him and another man that came over with him, they walked the railroad track from Philadelphia to Scranton—and they got—because lot of our friends is living there—so he stayed there a while and worked in the mines. He stayed at the mines a while—and he come back—he moved into Binghamton in 1890. He got his first citizen papers before that and he worked—hard job, to get a job them days—was putting sewer going down through Clinton Street. They hired you for two days and the next two days you was done—you didn't have a job, and you had to struggle along to get a job—so then he went to work and he got a job with Roberson Lumber Co. He had a job working outdoors piling lumber—when they comes in the cars and get piling it—he worked there, oh, ’til about 19—1907—no, 1906—he worked there 1896—he left there—he had a very bad case of asthma—had it tough. But he used to like to take his drinks, and he worked, but sometimes when it comes Friday or Saturday—boy—that was bad! But it’s one of them conditions—like the old timer used to be—that was nothing new to them. And Mother come to this country about 18—1890. She was a hard worker—she used to keep house. They used to have boarders come to live with us—they had good ones and they had bad ones—they had to make both ends meet to get along the best they could. About the year 1907—Dad come home from work one day and I come home from school, he said, Dad, “I'm not going to work anymore, I'm done—I can't work no more ’cause my asthma got me so I can't do anything." So he died. I was ten and a half years old then when he died, and two years later, Mother was in bad shape—she fell down on the ice in the wintertime on the sidewalk, hit the back of head—she went into a coma. She died two years after Dad died. That left us—I was twelve and a half years old at that time—so what happens—so after they both died—I went to live—my sister, my brother and I—went to live with my uncle, Mr. & Mrs. George Tatich. I lived with them. When I was fourteen years old, I had to quit school to go to work—so I started to work for the Binghamton Glass Co. as a mold boy and snapping-up boy. In 1913 I started apprenticeship of being a glassblower—learning the trade, glassblower. I stayed, worked in the glasshouse until 1924. I quit there in '24 and I went to work and started to work at Olum Furniture Co. on Clinton Street. Mr. Jacob Olum was the owner and proprietor of the business, and I worked for him, and I been working for him continuously until I retired after 51 years working. I come up the hard way with ’em—I met all kinds of people, good and bad—we managed to get along the best I could. I used to talk, go out to be a witness for, witness for people to be a citizen of this country—and used to go out to work selling furniture and go out, help a whole lot on different things—being sort of an interpreter for things for to help them along when they would buy homes, etc.—which we did—and they got going good—and I got to be working in the store. We got in the Slovak people, Polish people, Czechoslovakian people, Ukrainian people—and you meet them all—I could understand them and I could talk with them all—I had no difficulty at all. So, I worked ’til 19—19—after forty years of working for the store—I retired after I was 69 years old on social security. After I retired Mr. Olum wanted me to come back to work two or three nights a week, so I decided—I went back to work three times a week with a salary of $30.00 for twelve hours, and I stayed there, I put in eleven years doing that and I worked there ’til I was taken sick—and with doctor's orders, I decided to give up work, so I haven't been working since. So, my political help, I started to get in politics about in the year 1928. I was elected Secretary of the Roosevelt—Roosevelt Victory Democratic ticket—Secretary of the First Ward Group that we had here—and I kept being in politics, and went along and here of 19—1934—or ‘35, I run to be supervisor for the First Ward—and I was elected to that office, and I was elected continuously to that office from 19—1936 to 1955. In the 1955 election I got beat and that ended my career as a politician. Nettie: Well, tell me more about your politics—exactly what your job was. What was your—trustee, councilman, supervisor—? George: Supervisor. Nettie: Supervisor of what? George: I was county supervisor for twenty years. I was on different committees—I was on a whole lot of important committees on the Board of Supervisors—I spent nine years on the Finance Committee that made up the finances and the budget for the county for the year. I was on that for nine years. I was on the law Legislative Committee about nine years. I was on the Airport Committee from the time we started it, ’til I got beaten in the election. I was on the construction of the airport, and after the airport was finished—then I was on the committee that started when they started going to work on building a new college in Binghamton. The Board of Supervisors elected twelve members to be on the committee about getting a college in Binghamton. We decided to do that and the Board of Supervisors voted to appropriate one million dollars for that new college that we were supposed to have. Things went along smoothly, then all of a sudden things turned around. Lt. Governor—er—er—Lt. Governor of the state, he came down, we had a meeting with the Board of Supervisors. He wanted us to go to work and start another college in the city and at one million dollars that we wanted to appropriate for the state college—to go to work, to put that toward the new community college that, they called it at that time—it wasn't community college, at that time, it was the School of Science. So they took—they—they split the committee of the twelve men—they took three men, Harry True, myself, and Hugh Wheeler to be on the new school that we wanted to open up—which today is Broome Technical School. And I been on that school from the time they started it ’til I got beaten in the election. I still have a lot of faith in that school and I think it is one of the Godsends of our County for having a school like that. That is a very good school. Nettie: Mr. Macko—how about telling me more the airport—how it started—how did it get around? I know it had something to do with the Johnsons—I'm not sure. George: Johnsons? Johnson—what's-his-name was on the committee. Nettie: Charlie Johnson? George: See, they had an airport in Endicott, but they wanted to have a bigger airport because the government would not put any money into that airport because of circumstances in the airport that they didn't think would be feasible to do it. So they appointed a committee—Johnson was on that—ooh—President of the Ansco Co. was on that—quite a few real business people were on that committee. So they come before the Board of Supervisors to see what we can do, if we would be—interested in building the airport—so we had a meeting, and this group of people come and explained to us why we should have a new airport here and so forth, like that. And, ah, ’course I was interested in aviation because my son was a flier. My son is a flier in the Navy. After they got through talking, we heard all sides of the story and the Board was kind of quiet, so I said to this—I can't think of his name now, he used to be a big wheel here—I said, “You people—now you sell up a idea, this here airport, now you should go out, and go out and canvas the city and different parts of the city, kinds of different parts of the county, then come back to us with the report—see what you made on it.” And it went along like that, and they came back and then the board decided that we go along building the airport. Nettie: How did you find that site? Why not another site? George: This committee that was working on it, they had that all located. They showed us the site before we started to do it. We all saw it. It's a good site, but still, it’s a condition of Broome County—when you get fogged, you get fogged in—you can't help it, it's a situation we have here. Nettie: A sort of pockets there, too. George: That's right. The airport did a good thing for the community. Nettie: Yes, business. George: Everything. Everybody. A lot of people come back, come back and objected to me, come up, a lot come up, he said, “George, we gave you the devil for being for the airport, but we're sure happy you done it." Nettie: That's right, that's right. George: I said that's all right—that's the way you got to take it—some good and bad. Nettie: That's right. George: I says I always manage—oh, when—I always manage, when I even voted—when I even voted for anything in the county, on the different budgets, I always went to work—I went to court [inaudible], hard concepts, I listen to ’em—I'm talking—if it's a good thing and they satisfaction me, I voted for it. And if I wasn't satisfied, I'd question them about it—and after I questioned, if the question come out to my satisfaction, I voted for it, if not, I voted against it—and that was always my motto when I voted for anything. Nettie: Other words, you voted, you went along as though it was something of your own, as though that was your private thing. George: Well, the benefit of the people, for the benefit of the people. Nettie: That's right. Your heart was really in it. George: That's right. I didn't want to hold up anything that wasn't, that wasn’t—anybody that was detrimental to the city, I didn't like. Nettie: Did you ever know the Kilmers? Did you ever know anything about the Kilmers? George: I've known of them, but I never had any contact with ‘em. Nettie: How about the Link people? Do you know the Links? George: I know Ed Link, but, ah— Nettie: Just through business? George: Just through business, that's right. Nettie: Nothing personal. Well, how about telling me—where was this Olum's located? On Clinton Street, or was it located— George: —Clinton Street. Nettie: Clinton Street. At that era, say fifty years ago, I know that they had, probably, many stores and probably, I think Jewish people had stores, and things like that. Will you tell me something about that? Other people you got involved with? George: Well, there was different people had businesses there, mostly grocery stores—why, mostly—there were two or three Jewish places had grocery stores. Then they had a dry goods store that they have, that they used to have on Clinton Street, people by the name of Smock’s. They used to have children—children's—and baby dressing, and dresses for the ladies. They was in business for quite a while, but then he died off, she died off—that closed that business up—and then they had a lot of people running the hotel—saloon, drinking places, that so many of them had, some in and some out. Nettie: Wasn't there a Lincoln Hotel at one time? George: Yeah—Lincoln Hotel. Nettie: That's before Ann Kolota had it. George: Well, Lincoln Hotel, Mr. Torony owned it—he used to have a corner on, a hotel on the corner of Charles and Clinton Street. He was doing business there, but he had to get out of there, so then he went to work—took the Lincoln Hotel over. And he’d run that for quite a while—and went along, got along good—we used to go there and I used to meet him quite often—every week, my wife and I’d go there every week. They used to have dances, there’d be dancin’, we'd meet different people and we'd have a glorious time there. So Mr. Torony got down to the point, he says, "George,” he says, “I want to give up—I want to sell.” He says, “I want to sell it to you."  I says, "Steve! Sell it to me?” I says, "I haven't got the money to pay for that."  He says, "What do you care? I'll take a mortgage."  Yes, but I said, "I don't want to worry about a mortgage." But it went along, and a fellow by the name of Maxim come along, he bought it. Maxim had it for quite a while, and he sold it—and I don't know who had it now since the Kolotas had it. I don't know who runs it now. I used to go out, and people who come from the old country had to go, they all had to go and order up cit—get citizen papers. I used to go out, I can't tell you even how many people I went to be—ah—be a citizen, put in for citizen papers for. Well sometimes, ah—they used to make me mad—they wouldn’t come and tell me, "Will you go for me?” but they’d come up and tell me, “You gotta go for me.” And it’s the night—the day before they got to go to court, they’d say, “You got to go with me." So I turned a few of them down. Anyone—anybody that wanted me to be a witness for ‘em and I didn’t like their character, I wouldn't go. I wouldn't go for everyone, because one time I went for a witness with another fella—both of the fellas are dead—one was a witness and one was the man running for citizen paper. We went up—I never had to worry about what I said or done, but I wasn't—I wasn’t—I didn't hear what the other guy had to say, so I was going to be honest—so this examiner, when we got through, he said, he says, "All right,” he said, “I will rest your case, but,” he said, “when you come before the judge and get citizen papers,” he says, “I will put perjury charges against you.” Nettie: Put what? George: Perjury charges. Nettie: Oh, perjury. George: So we had to go from one office to another to sign up. Someone—but this thing was bothering me all the while. And I said to the guy, I says, "Come on back." Ah, he said, "Where?" I said, "We're going back to the examiner, again." He said, "Why?" I said, "He said something I didn't like as far as myself is concerned—I don't know about you, but I'm fighting for myself." So I went in there and saw him. He said—I think his name was Smith—I says, "Smith, did I understand you say that you passed us all right but when it comes to court—before the court to get the papers, you’ll go put perjury charges against us?"  He says, “Yes,” so I says, “Let me tell you, Smith, right now.” I said, "You want to make damn sure that the perjury charges you're going to put against me, that they’re gonna be good, or I'm gonna sue you.” I said, "I will not go to work and stand up to anybody accusing me of perjury when I haven’t perjured myself." Well, we come to court, he never mentioned a thing about it—he just said to the judge, "Pass the guy." But I'm telling you, so—you had some of them couldn't write their names, you know, hard workers—they never wrote in their lives [inaudible]. I had one guy in particular, Harry Terre—Harry Tatiliba. He's [inaudible] junkyard [inaudible] iron all day long—how do you expect a guy to write a letter when he never wrote a letter before? So he had it in there and the examiner called me in and he said, "George,” he says. he says, "I like this guy and all that, but he says he can't sign his name.” I said, "Let me talk to him in his language.” I said, “He'll sign it.” I said, “he'll do it, just let me talk his language.” So I told him in his language, I said, "If you don't sign your name, you're not going to get the citizen papers, so take your time—try to write as plain as you can. Take your time, don't rush it." He did. (Laughing.) Nettie: They have to have someone interpreting for them. George: That's right. I had—I had to ask permission to interpret for him. So—I’d never done that. Nettie: That was interesting. George: Another time I went up for a witness for a man. He was born here—in Scranton—well, he goes outside of Scranton. When the war come along they took him in—pushed. He said he wouldn't go and fight because he wasn’t going to fight against his brothers over there, his father and brothers in the old country. And he was born here, they took him in, but when he got discharged from the Army he got his citizen papers. So I went up to be a witness for his wife for papers, and this examiner—she took her husband's citizen paper with her—and he questioned her, he says, "This is your husband?" She says, "Yes”—and he was born in, near Scranton, and was baptized in Scranton—she said, "Yes."  Well, he said, "He didn't need no citizen papers—he's a citizen in the first place." Well, he said, "The government gave it to him when he discharged, so that's it." So, you see there was wrong in there, too. Nettie: That's right. George: So, she got her paper without a bit of trouble. But most of the people, I never had none of them turned down that I went to be witness for—because I was careful who I went for. I went for Slovak people, I went for American people, I went for Italian people—those that I knew they was all right, I went for ‘em, no trouble at all. And I never tried to charge any of them any money for going—although losing time at work, but never charged any of them—but some of them would give me a donation once in a while. And a friend of mine, I went for citizen’s papers for him and his wife—and they both got it. And I was running for election that year, and he went to work, he said, to some people he said, "Don't vote for George. George has been there long enough,” he said, "get somebody else to run." I said, "That's what I get paid for being his witness." (Laughing.) Nettie: People are comical, aren't they? George: You got ups and downs, I'm telling you. Yeah. Nettie: Since we're on Clinton Street, how about telling me something about that Horvatt Bank that was closed— George: Horvatt Bank was closed by the State Dept. of Banking—they closed it. There was a discrepancy or something, something like that. I don't want to bring in the bi—the other part of it. But it, ah—It hurt the people of the First Ward and hurt the business of the First Ward when that bank went under. There's no question about it. It’s just too bad that it happened. Nettie: Mr. Macko, what kind of people went to that bank? Why didn't they go to Binghamton Savings Bank? Why did they go to Horvatt Bank? George: They went to the Horvatt because he's one of our kind, and he used to have a good reputation. His dad used to run the beer business, which, my dad used to go there every week—had a grand time—and the family was well known, so the people had a lot of confidence in him so they went to the bank. Now, you take all the churches—all the churches had money in banquet—er—Horvatt's Bank. I was elected Treasurer in St. Michael's Church in the July. When the half year was up they elected me for a full year, so, a year and half as Treasurer in St. Michael's Church. After that I was elected for President of the Board from 1923 to '29. In '29, after the year 1929, I didn't want to be on it any longer, so I—I was elected but I refused it, wouldn’t be swore in, so that stopped it. Then, I didn't get elected—got elected again in 1934. In 1934 I took it again amidst a lot of turmoil—church fight was starting in there—which I didn't like, didn’t need in the first place, because I knew the law says, when you got membership laws to go by, that's all you got to worry about—membership laws. Well, St. Michael’s Church was dedic—er—elected—er, appointed by 27 families. They got the charter for St. Michael’s Church in 1920—er, in 1904, and when I was there I tried to keep within the law on everything was done, and the people had confidence in me and they always wanted me in there. So after I served in 1920, er, ‘34, this church fight got started, harder, hotter and hotter, and I tried to calm it down the best I could. I used to tell ‘em, he says, "Look at this—why do we have to fight? Don't go to the left, don't go to the right, but stay in the middle of the road,” and I said, “If you stay in the middle of the road, you're gonna win. And if you don't stay in the middle of the road, you don't win.” Well, it just happened, they wasn’t under membership laws in New York State. Well, the law, the charter said we should have the Greek Catholic Church—Greek Catholic Church rites. That was in the charter. But that was, that was the fight about Greek Catholic Church religion, fighting, that didn't help ‘em any. But if I say, there wasn’t no law to take ‘em out of the—they even sent two lawyers to the old country to check up on the history of the church and everything—Bernie Chernin and another guy. That was a vacation for them. Who paid—and who paid for it? The poor people. So—is there anything else? Nettie: When you were telling me about—you were working—your dad was a glassblower? George: I was a glassblower. Nettie: You were a glassblower. George: I was a glassblower. I was seventeen years old when I started blowing glass. Nettie: Mr. Macko, will you tell me the procedure of blowing glass? I think it is quite interesting—can you explain it? Or if you can’t, you have to show it, is that it?  George: (Laughing.) You know, we used to have thirty-three glassblowers working at the glassworks, but every year they allowed, they’d usually allow them to put one apprentice—to put an apprentice on, so, every year there's men put in for ‘em. I went in for a four-year apprentice—they used to have a five-year apprentice, but when l went in it was a four-year apprentice. We used to have old glass—sand, soda, lime, and potash—and we used to melt it, and we used to have about a hundred tons of glass melted just like molasses, day and night. And you’d have a long pipe, a pipe about that long [about 24”], and you’d put a [inaudible] on the end of it, and you'd go to work and gather that glass, take it and roll it on the stone or iron, and you had a form for the bottle, and you'd go to work and before you closed the bowl you’d blow the bottle out. So they used to make bottles from—anyway, I used to make a bottle from one half ounce up to sixteen ounces—but then, they used to make bottles up to five gallons, but that I couldn't do because that was too big a job for me. Nettie: Is that only bottles, or did you make vases and other things? George: Bottles. Nettie: —just bottles— George: Just bottles. So, in 1923, the year—we closed for the season, and then '24, I started work for Olum. That was the end of my glassblowing business. But that was hard work. In wintertime, half a side you were burning and the other side of you was freezing, and blowing glass all day long was no picnic. You had to go clear round the—you had to work in union—unison. And if you didn't—if you happened to stop—the thing didn't work out for you when you was on, on the kneading board. To divide it, you'd have to holler, “Look out!” because the man would come around with the hot glass and hit you in the rear with it—burn your pants if you didn't holler. So you had to be watchin’ all the time. Had to go day round, day round and round and round. Nettie: Did this have something to do with your respiration after many years? George: Didn't bother me. I used to play in a band, even! Blow glass, play in a band. Oh, no. We, ah—back in 1912, we started a band from St. Michael’s Church. Nettie: Just a few men? George: Oh, there were the few of us—then there was quite a few of them, wound up, but the band went along, gone along good. Nettie: What did you do in the band? How many in the band, and what part did you play in it? George: I played the cornet. I played the cornet, but then I quit that band, and guys asked me to go to work, get a saxophone—and I start blowing, training on the saxophone and I went to work, went to first work for the Slovak Citizens Band. I played in that afterward. But St. Michael’s band—they had a nice band, but they broke up. Nettie: Where did you play? At picnics, things like that? George: Yes. Nettie: Did you have high school? George: My education—I went to school when I was seven years old and I quit when I was fourteen—I got up, er, finished the seventh grade and graduated the glassblower. (Laughing.) Yeah. Nettie: Your education was experience throughout life, right? George: That's right—but thank God I struggled along all right. I can't complain. Nettie: Did you have a son in service? George: Yeah—my older boy. Nettie: Will you tell us about your family? George: I got two sons—and they’re both high school graduates—-and then he started—the War come along—he went to work and started to take night school in Endicott High School to be a pilot, and he went along. They picked ten men out of the class to go to work and take flying lessons in the Endicott Airport—so, he was one of the ten—so then he went to work after that certain length—-certain courses to go through. Then they took, out of the ten—they picked out five others to go for another course of flying, and he went along—he won every one of them because—so things come along, and the report come out from Washington that all the civilians in pilot training have to join the service—and there's ten of them up in Endicott. There were some from Massachusetts, some from New York in the class—so they got together and, “We got to join, we got to join the service”—so they went to the Navy-Army recruiting station here. They wanted to enlist as pilots in aviation in the government—they wouldn't take them, so they decided to go to New York and got the Navy Department up there to see if they could take them in. Well, they had a meeting there, the twelve men, and they said, “We will.” He says, “Gonna take a couple of you, two of you is gonna pass. One is perfect—he's in from right today—he's in.” That was my son. They take him for this one. “From today on, you're a Navy man. Go out and buy a uniform and the government will pay for ‘em—and the government will pay for ‘em.” And the other boy, he's a boy from Owego—they gave him thirty days to fix up his teeth and report back in New York in thirty days, and he was appointed after that—so my son was in there. He trained pilots for the Navy for I think, for two and a half years. So then they went to work—so, they kinda closed down on that after, they went to work—they send them out to be instructed to be fighter pilots, so my son, the older boy, is a Navy fighter pilot, and they laid him off and he got through with the rank of Commander—from Ensign to Commander is quite a step without a big education—so he came back home, and he wanted—to put in full time and part time. He's got 27 years in as a Navy pilot. Nettie: Is he living here—in the Triple Cities? George: He's living here—he's living up above us on this street. He's got two boys, both college graduates. Both work for American Airlines—one works out of the super—vice president's office—the older one works out of the vice president's office as a troubleshooter or something, and the other one, the younger one, works in the accounting office, and my younger boy, Joe, he works, lives with me here—and he's been working ever since he graduated college—er—high school, for GAF for 34 1/2 years, and he got laid off. Nettie: That was sad. George: Yeah. He can't get a job—to get a job for $2.65 an hour—but when you’re making more money than that, try and get a job. Try and get a job. Nettie: I know. It is very hard. George: Them are the situations. Nettie: Mr. Macko, when you worked at Olum's, what kind of wages did you get—years ago, compared to wages now? George: I started there at $25.00 a week—you work from 8 o'clock to 9, 10 o'clock at night. Nettie: Every day? George: Every day, every day. Nettie: How did they deliver furniture? Must have had buggies? George: They had a truck—truck. Nettie: They always had trucks? George: Yeah, I was a salesman, I was a salesman—help uncrate the stuff, crate the stuff, polish the stuff, truck driving. I done everything, even swept the floor in the store. Nettie: For $25.00 a week? That was when? How long ago? George: That was back about 1924-1925. Nettie: Now the wages are different, right? George: Then we got a raise. Then, when Horvatt Bank went under in 1929, we had to take a cut in wages again. Nettie: Oh. George: The boss lost his money—so them are the things. Nettie: How about the charge accounts? Will you explain? George: They have charge accounts—which is a good account—good charge account. They'd have—before, they didn't use to have a charge account, and especially when we had floods. The people that were born here and they owed him more, more. Mr. Olum didn't crowd them—anything—he asked them to go along, “Pay a little as you can,” he said [inaudible] and you work along with ‘em. Then after that, he'd take the furniture and have it fixed for repairs—stuff like that—and then he started a Red Circle Credit Bureau, which you can have—buy furniture—without paying a carrying charge on it for a year. After a year there is a carrying charge, but the carrying charge is about—at that time was, I think, about 10%—that was made on the schedule, that average was 10%. On the electrical end of it, they used to give them ninety days without a carrying charge to pay for it. If they didn't pay for it, then you had to pay a carrying charge—and the carrying is the same way they are today in the store—you're doing business directly with the store, not with outsiders. See, it is a company-owned store. Nettie: Sounds like Mr. Olum was a very nice man to work for. Sounds like he had a lot of compassion for people, the way you tell me. George: He was very good to the people, very good. That's why all the people used to go to him, because he was so nice to ‘em—he was a Jew but he was like one of us, as far as that goes. Nettie: Is he still living? George: Oh yes, he'll be coming home from Florida in April. He's going to be 84 years old and I'll be 83—the same day—yeah. He was a very nice man to work for—-because I lived there—er, worked there that long. Nettie: He sounds like a very nice man. George: Yeah. Nettie: Going back to Clinton Street, do you remember any people or characters who were colorful—someone comical—something outstanding about certain people? George: Well— Nettie: Maybe someone prominent? George: There weren't any too prominent. They was all congenial—all happy, jolly, full of jokes, etc. Nettie: Well, do you want to tell me anything else, Mr. Macko? George: I don't know— Nettie: What social life did you have? George: My social life was very good. My wife—we're married 62 years, will be 62. We got along good—we raised a family of two boys—getting along right now—getting along good right now, thank God. As far as social life, we can't complain—as long as we are healthy and well, that's the main thing, the rest will come gradually. Nettie: Do you belong to any clubs? George: Just the First Ward citizens. Nettie: Do you go out there? Do you have your meals there? George: I haven't been in there quite a while. Look, all winter long I haven't drove my car—from the day—all winter long. The boy, younger boy stayed home, he said, "Stay home. Never mind driving the car, roads are so bad—get off of them," so I stayed home and didn't drive. Nettie: It was a bad winter, wasn't it? George: Oh, it was awful. Nettie: Is there anything you have interesting for our tape? Something on your mind? George: Say, there is one thing. You go down to First Ward Library, there is a library book in Slovak that was made by Mr. Mazar and Paul Sasinek. I saw it four years ago—has the history of the Slovak people in the Ward here. If you get a chance to look it up, you'll see it. Nettie: I think it will be very nice. George: I think you'll get a whole lot out of that. Nettie: Well, Mr. Macko, it was a pleasure of you giving us information for our tape. Thank you very much. George: You’re welcome, I assure you. Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George J. Macko Subject The topic of the resource Macko, George -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Immigrants; Czechs--United States; Binghamton (N.Y.); Politics; Broome Community College; Broome County (N.Y.). Supervisors, Board of; Binghamton Glass Co.; Olum's Furniture Co.; Glassblowing; Clinton Street neighborhood; First Ward; Interpreter; Broome County Airport; St. Michael's Church Description An account of the resource Macko talks about his father immigrating from Czeckoslavia and settling in Binghamton, NY. Both his parents died when he was young and he and his siblings lived with a relative. At fourteen he left school to work for the Binghamton Glass Co. where he learned the glassblowing trade. He details the operation of the glassblowing. He left there after ten years to work for Olums Furniture Co. on Clinton Street. He worked there for fifty-one years. He describes the Clinton Street neighborhood and the businesses located there. He served as an interperter and assisted immigrants in the community with paperwork for mortgages and citizenship. After retiring he became involved in politics. He served as a County Supervisor for twenty years representing the First Ward. He speaks of being on several committees during his time as a County Supervisor and was involved with the creation of Broome Technical School [Broome Community College] and the Broome County Airport. He also served as a board member of St. Michael's Church. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 71 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Macko, George J. ; Politylo, Nettie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-03-30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 34:03 Minutes ; 10:20 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/669a47054fde83aa900d3d8045b2c49b.mp3 777d85c2963cd6e029a9f93e038d12cb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dcae8cb5a12052e457724e4d47cad181.mp3 a05fd0ec38da06260cbeecc347133da5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. 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This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Polansky, Joe Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview O'Neil, Dan Date of Interview 1978-05-30 Subject LCSH New York State Athletic Commission; Jack O'Brien; Jack Sharkey; Johnson Field; Kalurah Temple. Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33:14 Minutes ; 5:31 Minutes Collection Broome County Oral History Project Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56087">Interview with Joe Polansky</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Joe Polansky Interviewed by: Dan O’Neil Date of interview: 22 February 1978 Dan: This is Dan O’Neil, and I’m speaking to Joe Sheppe Polansky. 54 Glenwood Avenue, Binghamton, New York. The date is February 22, 1978. Okay, ah, Joe, would you, ah, relate to me your life and working experiences in the community with emphasis on your affiliation with the boxing profession? Joe: Well, the boxing profession? Dan: Yeah, you can start out with that. [Referring to outline that he had been given earlier] Joe: Well, first I want to say that I was born June 18, 1902 in Coaldale, Pennsylvania in Schuylkill County in the coal mining fields and, ah…at the age of 16 my Father died and being the first - the oldest - boy of the family, nine, I went to work in the mines. And, eh, my education consisted of first year High School and then I had to go into the mines. I worked in the mines for one year and during that time I was boxing as an amateur, and boxing as an amateur at that time was 1918, during the War, and we had amateur fights all throughout the coal regions and I participated in all of them. They had, ah, community sings which consisted of boys being draft- eh, asked to get into the service, and they had boxing bouts at all those meetings, and I participated in every one. And I was very successful in the amateur ranks, knocking out a number of  boys, and, ah, at one time, I had two fights in one night. The first fight and the last fight. Because winning them both - knocking both boys out and, ah, my employment at that time? Well, I worked sporadically, learning the barber trade which I worked at time and time again because I was busily training for the fights, and I started my career in Tunakwa, Pennsylvania Hall. I scored four knockouts in a row then I, at that time, I met a lot of tough coal region boys. I was trained by the Chief of Police of my home town Coaldale, P.A. His name was James Foagallagher. He took great interest in me and at one of the fights I knocked out a soldier boy, and the soldier boy was very popular at that time so I wasn't so popular myself by knocking him out, however, that night Tiny Maxwell was the principle speaker at the banquet and Tiny Maxwell was a great sportswriter of the Philadelphia newspaper, and after I knocked both those boys out, the following week I was in the Philadelphia - Jack O’Brien’s gymnasium in Philadephia - training. I stayed there for 10 days, taking my training course from the great Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. And, ah, after I got through there, I boxed in Allentown, Pottsville, Lansford, Flagstaff, P.A., Nesquehoning, P.A., and a number of others - Reading and on to Philadelphia. Again, to box. Ah…that was what I called my employment at that time, was boxing and ah…(will ya shut that off now?). After I got through boxing in Philadelphia, I came to Binghamton for a 10 day vacation and, ah, I was working out at the YMCA and Smut Smith, who was Sports Editor of the Binghamton Sun, came over to the YMCA to watch me work out and he told, after watching me work out he says to me, he says, "What do you weigh?" I said, "135 pounds." He says, "Would you like to fight next Friday?" Here I'm in town only 5 days and Friday night was the big Binghamton Sun Community, ah, Contest that was run every year by the Sun Bulletin for, ah, some charitable affair and, ah, he says, "You're on to fight next Friday night." I said, "OK." So, Friday night came and there’s, the Kalurah Temple was packed to the hilt and that night I knocked out a young fellow - a very popular Binghamton boy by the name of Billy Kinney - and that night was one of the most notable nights in my career because I met George F. Johnson. I met Mayor Tom Wilson and that time Senator Billy Hill - those were the three men I met that night I was in my, my first night in town. I, ah, and it was a great entry for me into the City of Binghamton. [inaudible] And, ah, at that time, I was living in Johnson Field right across from the ballpark and every morning I used to run around the ballpark to get my exercise and, ah…from then on, I kept boxing here in the City of Binghamton; Endicott; Johnson City; Syracuse; Rochester; Buffalo. And that was the start of my, my, ah, entry into Binghamton. Talking about George F. Johnson, I met George F. Johnson a week later. And, ah, I says to Mr. Johnson that I would like to buy one of the E.J. homes. Mr. Johnson answered me, and he says, "Joe, the only one man, people can buy an E.J. home, are people who work for Endicott Johnson." And I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Johnson," but I said, "I'm thinking I know a man who wants to sell me their home and, ah, on Carlton Street, and I'd like to buy it." Three days later, Mr. Johnson called me to his office and he says, "Joe." He says, "You asked me about buying the E.J. home." I says, "Yes, I'd like to get my Mother up here and my family." "Well,” he says, "you have a sister working for me, haven't you?" I says, "Yeah, she's been working for ya for the past 20 years." He says, "Well, have her sign on the Deed and you can buy the home." And that’s how I bought the home at 40 Carlton Street, Johnson City - where we lived for many, many years. [inaudible] Dan: Ah, what year did you come to Binghamton, Joe? Joe: May 16, 1921. Dan: Okay…and, ah, the reason was to, to…what was the reason you came to Binghamton, was for vacation, and you came to visit your sister? Joe: That’s right. [inaudible] Her name is Mrs. Anna Gavula. Dan: Gavula? Okay. Joe: She lived on Broad Street, right across from the ballpark. Dan: Okay, so you bought the house on Carlton Street? Joe: That’s right. Dan: Okay, and then from where then, then what did you do? After you bought the house - I mean, did you continue boxing? Joe: Yes. Oh, I continued boxing until, uh…until 1929. Dan: Until 1929. And that’s when you retired from actually, from actually- Joe: That's right. That’s right. Dan: Uh-huh. And then, wha - and then what? Joe: I retired from boxing, and then I became the boxing instructor of the YMCA. Dan: I see. Uh-huh. Joe: And after - during that time, though, I was a boxing commissioner - ah, no, a boxing commissioner, ah…the boxing commissioner at that time was, um…Tom Farley. Dan: Tom Farley? Joe: Jim Farley. Dan: Oh, the Postmaster? Joe: Brother of the Postmaster General. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And I was interested in getting on the boxing commission, however it didn't get on there for awhile. But from 1930 until 1933, I was a New York State referee of boxing and wrestling, and after 1933…in 1937…I was, ah, boxing instructor at the old Binghamton Police gymnasium. Then Senator Lehman appointed me as Boxing Commissioner, ah, Inspector of the State Athletic Commission. Dan: That was in 1937? Joe: That - 1937. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And I was on it, nine - from 1937 until 1972. Dan: Mm-hm. As a boxing commissioner - er, boxing instructor, rather? Joe: That’s right. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: That’s what I think is 35 years altogether. Dan: Mm-hm. Now Joe, as a boxing referee, were the bouts that you refereed locally or were they all over? Joe: All over New York State. Dan: And, and what, eh-? Joe: Buffalo, Utica, ah…Auburn, Elmira, Binghamton, and all the other cities that had boxing bouts at that time. Dan: Mm-hm. And, uh, in your travels, did you, ah, meet any, ah, notables? Joe: Well, the most notable was the, the boxing bouts that I had was some of Carmen Basilio's Championship fights in Syracuse. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And, ah…what'd I say? Well, Jack Sharkey was my famous, my favorite, ah, ah, man that I met in New York City at all the fights ‘cause he came down from his, ah, place in Boston, and I met him at all the fights in New York. And, ah, we always went out together, and we've been wonderful friends ever since. And, ah…Sharkey, to me, was a great fighter. He should, uh, when he was boxing Jack Dempsey, he was beating Jack Dempsey until Jack Dempsey really fouled him, and the he looked away and the first thing you know, Jack Dempsey hit him on the chin and knocked him out. Dan: In what year was that, Joe? Joe: 1928 or -29, I'm, uh… Dan: Uh-huh. Joe:I’m not sure. Dan: Yeah. Joe: I can't tell. Dan: Now, now Jack Sharkey's given name was, what? Joe: Za k- Z-A-U-K-A-U-S-K-A-S.[sic] Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: Zukauskas. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: Joe Zukauskas. Dan: And they lived on the lower end of Clinton Street. Down, ah, where…where that shop is now. I can't think of the name of it. Dan: And how did, did, Joe happen to, ah, or Jack happen to get into the boxing, ah, profession? How did Jack Sharkey happen-? Joe: Jack Sharkey was in the Navy. And that’s where he learned to box. And, uh…after he got out of the Navy, he, he was one of the first boxers to box Harry Wills. Jack Dempsey was Champion at the time and the color line was drawn pretty close, and Jack Dempsey would not fight Harry Wills. Dan: In what year was this, Joe? Joe: In, uh, the early - the late 20s. Dan: Late 20s. Joe: And, ah, Jack Sharkey fought Harry Wills despite the color line and beat Harry Wills at the time, and that made him very popular because Jack Dempsey wouldn't fight Harry Wills, yet Sharkey did and beat him. It wasn't whether Dempsey was afraid of him or what, but Sharkey fought him and beat him. And that's what made him a very popular fighter at that time. And, ah…Jack Sharkey visited here immediately after he got out of the Navy in 1924, I believe, -25, and he was my guest at, uh, the Carlton Hotel at that time and, ah…we went out on dates together at the time. And, ah, he was boxing under the name of…well, I think it was “Jack Sharkey” at that time, too. And, ah, he fought in Syracuse. He fought in Syracuse, eh, I don't know, I think it was -26, -27 in 1927. And, ah…Sharkey was not the most popular guy in Binghamton at that time because of something that happened previous to when he went into the Navy, which I don't know anything about. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And, ah… Dan: Now, was - wasn’t he known, eh, as the Boston Gob? Joe: That’s right. that’s right. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Yeah. Yes, he was. Dan: And he retired in what year? Do you remember…Joe? Joe: After the, in the…late 30s, I think. Dan: In the late 30s? Joe: Sometime after  the - after 1930. Dan: Uh-huh. And what do you recall of, uh - the Max Schmeling training here for his fight with Jack Sharkey? Joe: Well, at that time he, uh, uh, as I just said, he wasn't the most popular, and that’s why George F. Johnson invited Max Schmeling to train in Endicott, and he trained at the old dance hall in Endicott. And, ah, I went down there quite often to watch him train because, ah, I knew his manager and some of his trainers through, ah, being on, ah…in boxing in New York. And, ah…I already knew him pretty well. I…I didn't get to meet, ah, Schmeling very often, but I met him a number of times down there and we talked. But the greatest athlete I think I ever met was a football player, and a baseball player, and a great Indian. And you know who he is? Dan: Jim Thorpe. Joe: Jim Thorpe. I met Jim Thorpe in Kalurah Temple. He came here with a wrestler by the name of Indian, Indian…Stock, I think his name was. and Bill Irving, who was one of the fi - allplayers here at that time…ah, was an old friend of Jim Thorpe. And we three of us sat in Kalurah Temple for two hours in the, the, ah…in the dressing room talking about old times, when Jim Thorpe played with the, with the baseball team in, in Ohio with Bill Irving. Ah…his early, ah, training in…at the…ah, University he attended at that time. And, ah, he was telling us about coming to Philadelphia for the ge - for the, eh, All-Star track events in Philadelphia, which was a yearly, was one of the, the biggest attractions throughout all, uh, colleges. And they waited, waited for the team to come in with Jim Thorpe from, uh, his university. It was an Indian School. Dan: Yeah. Joe: And, ah, I just can't think of the name- Dan: Carlisle? Joe: Carlisle College. And they waited for Carlisle College to come in on the train, and Erie, the Princeton team come in - they had 24, ah, runners. The Yale team come in, they had about 36 participants. And when the Carlisle team come off the, off the train, there was just 4 Indian runners and Jim Thorpe was one of ‘em. And he, that day, at the Philadelphia races, he won all the track events. And here they waited for ah ah the teams to come in and this team come in with only 4 men on it: Jim Thorpe and three other Indians - but Jim Thorpe was the main one that won most the race - all the races - all the track events that, that afternoon. So, it was a great day for me because I knew Tiny Maxwell - Tiny Maxwell was a sports editor of the Philadelphia Ledger, I believe it was at that time. And he was a personal friend of my manager's. My manager was a, a man who run a restaurant in Philadelphia and ah, and ah, him and Tiny Maxwell were very close friends, and that’s how I, I happen to…happen to know him.  Dan: Mm-hm. Now, who were some of the, ah, ah…fighters that you instructed here, locally? Joe: Well, Joe Banovic was one of my, my boys that I worked with, Johnny Haystack, Joe Zinck and, ah, and I- Dan: Ya have anything to do with Phil Shay - Phil Vanderbeck? Joe: Vanderbeck, I was his trainer when he went to, to, ah…New York to fight in the Golden Gloves. Tommy Curry was one of the trainers and I was the other trainer. And, ah…we stayed in New York that, that night, and Vanderbeck boxed the next day. And, ah… some of the other participants were, were, ah…well, I got a picture of ‘em there but I just can't think of any of them, but Vanderbeck was the outstanding one at the, Joe - I think Joe Matisi boxed in that- Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: -tournament, too. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Although, he didn't do too good at the time, but he showed up very well. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: But he didn't win any championship. Dan: Mm-hm. Did ya - how ‘bout, di - Joe Taylor? Did you have anything to do with him? Joe: Joe Taylor? No, I never - I refereed his bouts after I got through boxing, but I never had much to do with Joe Taylor outside of him being a, a member of our old-time boxers association - of which I was Secretary - and that was the only contact I had with Joe Taylor. Dan: Mm-hm. Ah, outside of Jack Sharkey, Joe, uh, who would you say would be the best, ah, fighter to come out of this area? Joe: Out of this area? Dan: Yeah, outside of Jack Sharkey. Joe: I would say Joe Banovic; Joe Matisi. Between those two… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: I would say. I, ah, go ahe - the reason that I picked them was because, because they were heavyweights, more or less. Dan: Yeah. Joe: Or in that heavyweight class, which is one of the most popular classes. Tommy Curry, myself - we were of the lightweights - the lightweights were not too popular at the time… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Because a heavyweight is always…a heavyweight match is always… Dan: Now, from the time up until you retired in 1929, most of the boxing matches locally were down at the Kalurah Temple, right? Joe: No, Johnson Field. Dan: Johnson Field? Joe: Johnson Field is where most of mine were and, eh, and Kalurah Temple. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: But, ah, during the summer, there was always 5 or 6 fights during the, uh, summer at the Johnson Field. Dan: Mm-hm. I recall one fight in particular, ah, involving a local boxer - I believe it was in Johnson Field. Did Jake LaMotta fight here at one time? Joe: Yes he did, yes he did. But I really can't think of who he boxed. Dan: I was under the impression that it was Joe Taylor. Joe: No, Jake LaMotta never boxed in Binghamton - he boxed in Syracuse. Dan: Oh, in Syracuse. Joe: And he boxed Joey Taylor. Dan: Oh, I see. Joe: Joey Taylor put up a wonderful- Dan: Yeah. Joe: -fight against Jake LaMotta. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: I was at the fight - I worked there as an Inspector at the time. Dan: I see. Joe: For the New York State Athletic Commission. Dan: Uh-huh. So, uh, outside of Jack Sharley and, ah, who else did you, uh, who, who of the other heavyweights did you know?  Joe: Well, Jim Braddock was one of my great friends and everybody knows his history of how he became Champion. And, ah, Mickey Walker was, was another great, ah, friend of mine, and Mickey Walker came here the night I boxed Billy Kinney. And thats how I happened to go back to Newark, New Jersey with Mickey Walker. And I trained in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and, ah I boxed in Newark twice at the old Newark Airdrome, I believe they call it, or an Airdrome…and, ah, Mickey Walker's manager at that time was Jim Bulger (B-U-L-G-E-R), and he’s the man that took me to Newark and trained me there. But at that time, I broke my hand and I had to come back to Binghamton. Dan: Mm. Joe: A year later, I went, went out to Cleveland, Ohio, and I boxed in Cleveland, Akron and Mansfield. And at that time I was under the na - management of a, of a Cleveland man. And, eh… Dan: The [inaudible]. Joe:That’s where I met…can’t think of, uh…another great fighter. A heavyweight out there in Cleveland and I can't just think of his name. And I stayed out in Cleveland for a year. For a whole year. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And I boxed in those different… and I, I boxed in a place called Highland Park. Highland Park was a, was a racehor - racetrack, and they had a big gymnasium there, and they held bouts there at that time. Dan: Mm-hm. Now, you started to, to box when you were in the coal mines, um- Joe: That’s right. Dan: - in Pennsylvania. Now, when did you turn professional, Joe? Joe: Oh, I had about…56 amateur fights… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Before I turned professional. And then, I believe I had about 55 professional fights after that. So- Dan: You don't know what that year was that you turned professional. Joe: Around -20. Around 1920. Dan: Around 1920. Joe: Because I, I boxed amateur. But I had more, more 56 amateur fights and only 55 professional fights, so- Dan: Yeah-huh. Joe: I had more experience as an amateur that I did as a professional. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: But that’s what helped me out because I was a good puncher. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Had a good right hand and I scored a lot of knockouts. Dan : Mm-hm. And out of the 55 professional fights, how many did you win? Joe: Well, I only lost two. Dan: Only lost two. Joe: Yeah. Only lost two. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: But, the others, uh, at that time there was a lot of no-decision fights. So. if you were on your feet at the end of 10 rounds, there was no decision. You either won or you…either knocked your man out or you beat him very bad, at, or you win…but, uh, most, uh, in those days, there were no Boxing Commissions. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: in the early 20s. Ah, no boxing, ah, commissions to, uh, say that you had to make a decision, so there was no-decisions on many occasions. Dan: Mm-hm. Now, have you pursued the, ah, your barbering trade at all, Joe? Joe: Pardon? Dan: Have you pursued your barbering trade at all? Joe: Not much after, after, I just…sporadically. Dan: Just sporadically. Joe: Yeah. Dan: Most of your life has been spent, been spent in the boxing profession? Joe: With the Boxing Commission. Dan: Right. Mm-hm. Now, you, when you bought your house on Carlton Street in Johnson City, I mean, what disposition was made of that, I mean how, how did you happen to move from there to here? Joe: There to here? Dan: Yeah. You say you bought the house from George F. Johnson through your sister, right? Joe: Ye-yes. Dan: And, ah, I was just wondering, you sold that, did you, eventually? Joe: Well, after my Mother died. Dan: After your Mother died. Joe: After my Mother died, then we, we sold the house… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And the children each went their own way… Dan: Yeah. Joe: And that’s how I happened to, I got in business with ah John Cupina, who was First Ward Councilman… Dan: Oh, yes. Joe: Here in the City of Binghamton. Dan: Oh, yes. Joe: I was his partner in the liquor store at 54 Glenwood Avenue for 18 years, where I, we are right now… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: With the liquor store downstairs. And after he died, we got, we…the liquor store was sold to someone else. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And, ah, I was still with the Boxing Commission at the time, so I was kept busy doing my work there. Dan: Mm-hm. So, are you more or less retired as far as the Boxing- Joe: Yeah. Dan: -Commission is concerned? Joe: Well, I still go there on a…I'm still, uh, associated with the Commission - but the trouble is, when you go there, everybody's new, nobody knows ya. Dan: Yeah. Joe: All the ones that I, all the people that I know, I'm 76 years old. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And all the people that I knew are either dead or gone. Dan: [light laughter] Joe: Or not working. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: And that’s quite a thing when you go to New York now and, ah, find one of the people that you know and that's about it. Dan: Uh-huh; uh-huh. Joe: That’s why it's always a pleasure to meet Jack Sharkey down there. Dan: Yeah. Joe: That’s why we always go out together. Dan: Uh-huh. Now, of course you have a banquet every year, don't you, for the old-timers? Joe: Yeah, we have a banquet every year for the old timers, and our next banquet is, is, uh…May 13, 1978 at Johnson City, American Legion. And, ah, at that time, we honor so many fighters who have paid, ah, their dues and, ah, have-did their boxing from the old-timers. They've got to be over 50 years old before we, before we, ah, honor anybody. Dan: I see. Joe: In other words, they, tha…that’s the age limit. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: And, ah, so we honor so many people every year, and it’s interesting. The next one is May 13th in Johnson Field or Johnson American Legion. Dan: Mm-hm. Well, is there anything else you would like to add, Joe? Joe: Well, I, the only thing is, I say I belong to the Holy Spirit Church here in Binghamton, New York. And, ah…as far as club membership is concerned, I belong to the different, ah, memberships in the church, and that’s about all. I, uh, I used to belong to a number of clubs, but I just, uh, got away from it all. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And, ah, I want to say one thing that, one of the main things of my, ah, career was as Scout commissioner - Boy Scout Commissioner here in the First Ward during my boxing days because I was popular at the time and I was able to be a Commissioner, and at that time we had 7 Boy Scout Troops in the First Ward. It took a lot of work it took a lot of time of mine to be the Commissioner and meet each and every one of those seven Troops during the weeks that I was on the Board. And I'm very proud of that because today there is only one Boy Scout Troop in the First Ward. Which means that the work isn't being done. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And that’s why the interest isn't being taken care of as it should be. There should be more Boy Scout Troops because a lot of the boys are being, getting in trouble… Dan: Right. Joe:...they have nothing to do… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe:...and that’s why the interest should be in scouting. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And that’s why I am very proud of what I had done at that time, having, boy, ah…Boy Scout Commissionership. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And, uh, leading and raising a lot of the boys that I meet today are, ah, successful business men that were in my Boy Scout Troop. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: That time. Dan: Mm-hm. Ah, Joe, what, ah…just as an afterthought, going back to when you first started fighting, what did you usually get for a fight? Joe: Oh, $150.00… Dan: A hundreh… Joe: …two-hundreh… Dan: $250.00? Joe:...300. The best, the most money I ever made was $1,650.00. Dan: Is that right? Joe: For a 12-round bout. Dan: And that was at the height of your career? Joe: That’s right. Dan: As a professional? Joe: That was in 1923 - 24. Although $1,600.00 at that time was a lot of money. Dan: That’s right. Joe: If I had only invested it properly… Dan: [light laughter] Joe:...in E.J. or IBM stock… Dan: Right, right… Joe:...I'd a been alright today. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: But, I, as a young fella, you don't think of those things. Dan: Joe: And that’s about the size of it. Dan: Uh-huh. Joe: Or if something come up like some stock that, ah, went world wild, why...I sure remember the 1929 crash here in the First Ward when Horvatt's Bank went up. And all the poor people of the First Ward lost their money. I, ah, I saw people crying down there at the bank. And those, those are things that a lot of the young people today don't, don’t remember because they, they naturally weren't born at the time. Dan: Right. Dan: Even born at the time. But, ah, when you see the way some of them are spending money today, it’s, ah, interesting to me because I've seen the hardships that people went through at that time. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Especially during the, the, crash… Dan: Mm-hm. Joe:...in 1929 and 1930. Dan: Yeah…when you were working in the coal mines, what were you getting a day? Joe: Well, it was, I think it was a dollar, an…close to two dollars a day. That’s about it. Dan: Mm-hm. Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Dan: You went to work at 16? Joe: That was in 19, uh…1918 or 19…1918. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Yeah. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: Right during the war. Dan: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, because I was only 16 years old at the time. Dan: Mm-hm. Joe: And it was quite…when you think of the wages today… Dan: [light chuckle] Well, inflation’s, er, inflation is eating that up. Joe: It’s hard to believe. Dan: It is, it is. Well Joe, I certainly thank you very much for your cooperation and, ah, ah…if there's anything that you couldn’t remember or anything that should come to mind after I leave, why, don't hesitate to call me - I will be glad to return. Joe: I’ll be glad to do it. Dan: Okay, I’ll… Joe: Thank you. Dan: I'll turn this off here.  Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Polansky Subject The topic of the resource Polansky, Joe -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Coaldale (Schuylkill County, Pa.); Binghamton (N.Y.); Boxing; Boxing matches; Boxer; Boxing referees; Schmeling, Max, 1905-2005; Thorpe, Jim; Boy Scouts. Description An account of the resource Joe Polansky speaks about leaving high school to go and work in the coal mine in Coaldale, (Schuylkill County), PA after his father died. He stayed there for one year. During that year he became an amateur boxer and then attended a training course in Philadelphia under Jack O'Brien. He then had traveled thoughout PA for boxing matches. He moved to Binghamton and began participating in boxing matches in this region. The matches were held at Johnson Field and the Kalurah Temple. He boxed throughout New York, New Jersey and Ohio. He later became a professional boxer and retired from boxing in 1929. He discusses his boxing matches. He served as a referee for boxing and wrestling and was a boxing instructor. He was also associated with the New York State Athletic Commission. He recollects knowing notable boxers such as local boxer, Jack Sharkey, and Max Schmeling. He talks of meeting Jim Thorpe. He was a Boy Scout Commissioner in Binghamton's First Ward. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 72 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0a37c6a02baeb277abe5225bb767f50.mp3 4e8761f3994f9bd48a63c5e3fb2aa63d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed. See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information. Acknowledgment of sensitive content Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community. However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rider, Arthur G. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wood, Wanda Date of Interview 1978-02-23 Subject LCSH Watch making; Watch repair Collection Broome County Oral History Project Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56091">Interview with Arthur G. Rider</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:37 Minutes Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Broome County Oral History Project Interview with: Arthur G. Rider Interveiwed by: Wanda Wood Date of Interview: 30 May 1978 Wanda: This is Wanda Wood, interviewing Mr. Arthur G. Rider  in the Press Building. Binghamton, New York. The date is 30 May, 1978. [muffled: 78]. Mr. Rider, you've been a citizen around this area for many years, and we'd like to get some  of your experiences down on tape. And, ah, especially about  your, your jewelry. Wholesale jewelry business. And, ah, could you begin by telling us where you were born? Arthur: Oh, I was born up on, ah, River Road [Chenango Bridge], ah, about, ah, almost at the corner of the airport road. And, ah…my people lived there three…I think they were there three years before I was born. And then…and, ah, and I still own the, I still own the house. [clears throat] Well, they, ah… Wanda: And they - were they farmers, or…? Arthur: They were farmers, ayunh-yuh. Ayunh…farmers. Yeah, we had probably 20 cows, and 50 chickens, and, askah, three horses. Wanda: [laughing] That was a big farm, probably. Arthur: Well not, very big...I drove a horse to school when I was a kid, to Chenango Forks. Wanda: Chenango Forks School. Arthur: Ayuh. Wanda: Where was that, then? Where was the school?  Arthur: Well, the school was on the right hand side of, um…on the right hand side of, ah, Main St. in Chenango Forks. It's around, in where the new fire station is now. Wanda: Oh. The building is gone, is it? Arthur: Yes. The building’s gone. Oh, yes - it's been gone  for quite a while. Wanda: Did you have to go up that dug-road along the river?  Arthur: Yeah, I went up the dug-road. Wanda: [laughs] Arthur: Drove the dug-road. Wanda: That must have been pretty treacherous sometimes in the winter. Arthur: Well, yes. Ayuh, it was. Yeah. Horse jumped out of the one track into the other where we were in it. I  remember we all went down the, down the bank in the [laughs]  - horse and all. Wanda: [laughs] Overturned? Arthur: But, I made it. Didn't do any damage, as I remember. Wanda: [laughs] Oh, dear. Arthur: Yeah. Wanda: So you went to school up there until, when? Arthur: Went to school, and that's where I got an idea that I wanted to learn the jewelry business. Used to go in to see the watchmaker theres every day. Got it in my head I wanted to learn watchmakin’, so then…I… Wanda: Mm. Arthur:...Went to…took a correspondence course in it first, and then I went to Lancaster, to Bowman's in Lancaster and studied - took up the watchmaking. Then I came back and got a job, mmm…Russell O'Brien, 54 Court St. I was there about a year…a year, I guess. And then I went...a year, a year…  Wanda: Was that a sort of an apprenticeship? Arthur: No, no. I got a job, you know. It was, ah…I think  for that age... You see, that was in 19…no, 1918 or 1919. Right? At the end of the war. And, ah, ah, considering, I don't thinkin’ I got such a bad job to start with. I got $20.00 a week. Wanda: [chuckles] Arthur: Then I raised me to 25, and then I went  to thirty. I went down to 20 Court St., and I got, ah, finally got 35 after, after the five years. And, ah, I told you that I, about-a, the…I told you about living in the Hotchkiss? [Hotchkiss Boarding House, corner of Henry and Carroll Sts.] Wanda: Yes, I'd like to hear about that.   Arthur: Yeah, on the same...ah, that, that was the time that boarded up there, and I ate there.   Wanda: It was the Hotchkiss?   Arthur: Ah, three meals a day in this boarding house. Linen  tablecloths and, and, ah, colored waiters, and three meals a day for a dollar. So you see- Wanda: Yes, it is- Arthur: I wasn't doing so bad at, ah, on tw-25/$30.00 a week. And only paying out, eh, six and a couple’a, couple of dollars for a room. Wanda: [laughs] Arthur: In proportion, I was doin'... [Both laugh]   Wanda: -far better than you would these days, that's for sure.   Arthur: In proportion, I was doing much better.   Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: Uh-huh. But anyway, the watchmaking... there was a demand for them, must be, because I don't think - my wife's my same age and I don't think she got, as the secretary for a lawyer, I think she only got $6.00 a week when she started. Wanda: Mm-hm. Well, why - when you were - this job, the second job you had, were you watchmaking, or, or were you…? Arthur: Repairing watches. Repairing watches. Wanda: Repairing. And then how did you get from there into  jewelry? Arthur: Well, [sardonic chuckle] well I got mad that - ‘s’well, I got mad that-s, I wanted to travel on the road, so I applied for a job up  to the Pond's in Syracuse, the ones that sell Keepsake now? Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: And-a went up there and that's how I got a job.  They gave me a job. Traveled on the road…on commission. Straight commission. Wanda: Huh. Did you cover one certain area, or…? Arthur: Well, I covered New York State, mostly.  Wanda: Is that a fact? Arthur: Yeah, traveled around New York State. Wanda: What was that, by train or car, or what? Arthur: Part of the time by train. In the wintertime, I traveled by train, wintertime [summertime] I used the car, but, ah, I never traveled on the train too much. Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: Have some, but not too much. Wanda: And you took your sample cases and… Arthur: Ayuh, I took samples. Wanda: And went to jewelry stores? Arthur: Jewelry stores, yeah. Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: Well… Wanda: I imagine the styles of jewelry has changed a lot since then, hasn't it? Arthur: Well, yes, I guess. Not too, I don't think…not too much, as I know of.  Wanda: Wasn't jewelry quite, oh, ornate…in those days? Arthur: I don't remember. We sold - oh, used to sell cufflinks, lots of cufflinks, ah, and lots of cuff buttons, and lots of, ah, Waldemar chains [watch chains]'n…and, ah…oh, little  pins. Small, little pins for the ladies, a-and, ah…oh, I don't  know. Then we sold watches. See, a wholesaler those days sold watches. Wanda: Uh-huh. Arthur: Now, they don't. Wanda: Oh, they don't? It's gone too big now? Arthur: Well, it's gone... see, during the war in 1940, they all switched over from, ah…from wholesalers, direct from the manufacturer to the retailer…’bout 1940. Wanda: Oh. Arthur: So that, that, ah, that ended a lot of the big wholesalers. Wanda: Cut out the middleman, didn't it? Arthur: Yep. Few of them, few of them survived. And some didn't. Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: Down…so… Wanda: What, ah…how did you…? You must know a lot about diamonds. How did you get into that branch of the jewelry? Arthur: Well, I go - I guess…when I worked for the Pond's,  ah, I was interested. They seemed to be interested in, ah, I sold the - you see, they had the trade na- mark name, “Keepsake.” Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: And, ah…I sold the first assortment of them I sold  down in Honesdale, Pennsylvania. And, ah, Robert Pond sold the first one in, ah, the first ring in, in, ah, Mike Lisson's in Syracuse on Salina Street. Wanda: Hm. Arthur: Then I got it in my hea- I worked for them 10 years, then, then I got it in my head I wanted to try  it myself, so… [Both laugh] Arthur: Then I went to, then I went to work at that. Then, then I went to work for an outfit in Lancaster where I sold  the same kind of, uh, well, jewelry. Hamilton watches; Elgin watches; every kind of silverware and whatnot. And so then I, then I got it in my head I wanted to go to Europe. I thought, if they could go to Europe I could go to Europe,  so I [laughs] the Pond's - I figured, if they go to Europe and  buy diamonds, I could, too. Wanda: [laughs] Arthur: So in 19 - lessee…1938. I went, I went to Europe and bought some stones over there. Wanda: Well, where did you go for that? Arthur: Well, I went to, I went to, um…went to Antwerp first. Then I went, ‘n’, then I went from there to Amsterdam. Went to…they had offices in both places. And I stayed there four/five days and, ah, bought a few stones. ‘N’ I always, ah, I kept the contact for years and years...there. Wanda: So you've dealt with that same- Arthur: Yeah, I did for years and years. Wanda: -contact? Arthur: Yeah. So then I come back, and I didn't go to Europe again, ah, for another…see…not ‘till about 1960…probably not…what? ‘Bout 19sh…guess about 1970, I guess we went the second time. Of course, the war come on, you see. Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: And blocked ya from the, the second war, there. That blocked you from, from going over there. Wanda: Did you, was there trouble with supplying, uh, diamonds  from, ah, Holland during the war? Arthur: Hmmm, well, I… Wanda: Do you remember? Arthur: Well, during the war, you couldn't get  'em from over there. They were all bottled up. I mean, ah, eh…the Nazis took a lot of them and, eh, ah…you couldn't get - no. The man I knew, he was, happened to be in America when, when, um…when Hitler marched into Holland, He was in America. Wanda: Oh. Arthur: And, ah, he stayed here several years. Wanda: Hm. Arthur: Until the thing got quieted down...yes. No, you couldn't, there was no, no diamonds come outta there during the war. Wanda: Hm. Arthur: None, none at all...then. So I, uh…I dunno. I… Wanda: How did you, how'd you supply your customers, then? Arthur: Oh, it was very difficult. Of course, there's an awful - people have awful big stocks of them in America. And, ah, I dunno where they come from. The price was very high then. And, [sardonic chuckle] but it just - I couldn't supply them very good.  Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: Then of course, the government - you couldn't travel  because you couldn't get stamps to travel. Wanda: That's right. Arthur: Yeah. You had to bootleg- Wanda: Strange how we forget, isn't it? Arthur: You had to buy bootleg gasoline. [Both laugh] Arthur:God, you don't  remember any of that stuff! Wanda: Oh, well…a little... Arthur: A little... Wanda: Some of the fringes about stamping, stamps and so  forth. Arthur: That was a disgrace. That's the reason I, I didn't go for this, ah, about this gasoline business this time. I didn't believe there was any shortage. There wasn't any shortage then. They claimed there wasn't any shortage then. Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: All they were out to…try to stop you from travelin' or  something. I guess they… Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: There wasn't any shortage of gasoline; they had gasoline those days.  Wanda: And it doesn't seem as though there's any real shortage now.  Arthur: No, I don't believe there isn’t any, probably isn't any real shortage now. They just…they'd like to have you believe that there was, and... Wanda: Ayuh. Arthur: But there isn't - when you see the cars on the road,  you know there isn't. Wanda: [chuckles] That’s certainly- Arthur: They didn't raise the price of it much. Wanda: No. Arthur: No. Now, that’s been- Wanda: So now you, now you, ah, you've been in this one  particular spot here for, what? 35 years? Arthur: About…I guess about 35 years I've been here. I'm not dead sure, but I think about 35 years. Wanda: When you first started on your own, where did you set up business? Arthur: Over in the old Savings Bank building, back of the  Marine-Midland Bank. You know- Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: The one between City Hall and, and, ah...I, I rented a room over there for, ah…for, ah, $20.00 a month. Wanda: [laughs] Arthur: And I… Wanda: To start with? Arthur: And I finally got in two rooms, then three rooms. And, ah, they bought, and, ah…that's when the old, that's when the old Binghamton Savings Bank was there. Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: Then they bought, then, uh, then they took over the, ah…which bank was it there? Um…another savings bank pretty near went flooey? Um, or over in the location where they are now. I can't name the bank. I oughta be able to. Wanda: It wouldn't be the Citizen's…? Arthur: No- Wanda: …Bank? Arthur -the Citizen's was up along here. [Chenango St.] Wanda: The People's Bank? Arthur: No, the, um... Wanda: People's Bank? Arthur: There was a savings bank - another one, over there. Wanda: Huh. I'll have to look into that. Arthur: No, I can't name ‘em. But, they were going to go flooey, and, ah, the Binghamton Savings Bank…ah, took them over. Wanda: Oh. Arthur: Then they eventually moved over there. Eventually moved over there. Wanda: And that's now the Marine-Midland building, right?  Arthur: No, no, no. Wanda: Oh, you’re telling- Arthur: Over - where the Savings Bank is now. Wanda: Oh, I see. Arthur: There was, there was, there was, ah…another savings bank over there. Somebody could tell you that. Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: But I, I can't. Wanda: We'll have to look that up. Arthur: ‘Cause Citizen's Bank was right along in here some where. They went flooey, too. Wanda: They really folded, didn't they? Arthur: Ayuh. Wanda: Ayuh. Arthur: Ayuh, but the savings, the other one [Chenango Valley Savings Bank- 66 Exchange St.], was gonna fold, I guess. But they went.. the Binghamton Savings Bank took  ‘em over… Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: So that saved them. Wanda: How did, how did the Depression affect your business?  Were people willing to spend [unintelligible]? Arthur: They didn't have any money and you couldn't, ah…no. There wasn't any business, hardly. Wanda: Bad times, huh? Arthur: Yeah. Yes. Very, very...bad. 'Course, you could travel around the-then. I could travel around for, say, $35.00 a week. I could travel around and go, and be gone five days probably, for 35, $40.00. Wanda: Oh. Arthur: And, ah, now…now you go out 'n in one day you spend $50.00. Ridiculous! Wanda:...Motels and that sort of thing. Arthur: I stayed down in Corning the other night. And, ah,  their rate, um…normally, maybe I'd get in there for 24 or $25.00. But, I ended up paying 30. And, ah, they said that's all they had. Wanda: I hope that was a good night's sleep. Arthur: Well…[chuckles] I slept pretty fair. I told them they could give me a room on the back 'n they gave me one on the front, but it was all right; I slept. Wanda: [laughs] Arthur: It's a very beautiful  hotel - or motel. Wanda: Yes. Arthur: That Hilton in, ah, Corning. Wanda: Oh. Arthur: It's very nice. It's a nice… Wanda: Do you do much traveling now? Arthur: Oh, I travel. Oh, three or four days, three or four  days one week. And then maybe not much the next. Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: And, ah..no, I keep, I go around... keep goin'. Wanda: You to- you've had a very successful career, I should think. Arthur: No, I wouldn't say so. Wanda: Well, I know you're a well-respected businessman in  Binghamton. Arthur: [laughs] I don't know about that. Wanda: …Who do you think influenced you the most... during your life? Arthur: Hm…I…well, I think it was, ah, probably those people I worked for in Syracuse. I think, ah…they probably did, ayuh, in a way. Because they were quite, quite sucs, quite successful, and they were…kept themselves up in very good order, and, ah, and, ah…very, they were very successful. 'Course they, they built that business. When I worked for ‘em, they were doin', ah…oh, when I started, probably doing a half a million. And now they're doing 18 million. Wanda: That's Keepsake Diamonds? Arthur: Ayuh. Wanda: There's one right there. [laughs] Arthur: Ayuh. Yeah. Wanda: Well, it did- Arthur: Well, and so that probably influenced me. And the man in Europe taught me more about stones than anybody else. He’s… Wanda: What is there to learn? I'm absolutely...I don't know  anything about them. What is there to learn about diamonds,  cutting and all that sort of thing? Arthur: Oh, there's so much to know that it's, it's, ah, pitiful. I mean… Wanda: [laughs] Not enough time today, eh? Arthur: Oh, no. You couldn't, ah…but it's color, and, and, ah…color and make and imperfection and, and everything goes  into the, puttin' the value on ‘em. Everything. Very complicated, very complicated thing. Wanda: I notice you have some pretty complicated looking  machinery here, too. [chuckles] Arthur: Well, I - yeah. Yeah, a microscope. Yeah. On some of  ‘em. And scales, and, and, ah…there's some of ‘em, ah…have  more then I have. Now you're coming along to a period where  they're bringing in these diamonds that are not diamonds, but, um…this, ah, uh, cubic zirconia. Ah, is a new material. And the hardness is way up there, and, ah, refractive index is, was, was way up, too. and that's, ah, that's really a fooler. More, a bigger fooler than they've ever had. Wanda: Is that right? Arthur: Yeah. Bigger fooler than they've ever had. Wanda: You mean there’s been others? [unintelligible] Arthur: Oh, there's other, been other things, sure. But this thing…this thing, it’s really got 'em a little worried, I think. [chuckles]  Wanda: Do they sparkle just as good as the other ones?  Arthur: Well, ah, they can be a…it would be a job to, to separate ‘em. Wanda: Is that a fact? Arthur: Yep. I don't own one; I'm gonna buy one. I'm gonna buy one or two of ‘em. But, I haven't. Wanda: They aren't anywhere as near as, as expensive as diamonds, right? Arthur: Oh no, no, no, no. No. No. Wanda: Diamonds are still good, solid investment, aren’t they? Arthur: Ayuh. Wanda: Always probably will be. Arthur: Have been, I guess. I hope so. Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: Price goes up and up and up. Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: Yeah. So much that you can't believe it. Wanda: Well, would you advise young people these days to get into the business that you're in? Arthur: No. I wouldn't. Wanda: You wouldn't? Arthur: No. I think it's too, I think it's too difficult. Stores, you see, there’s, it's getting so there are very few stores. Wanda: Mm-hm. Arthur: Yeah, very few stores. When I started out, you could go to…well, now the fellow from Greene does pretty good, but there was a store in Oxford that, they did just, just as well. Of course, the store in Norwich, that's all right. But, then there was Sherburne, there was Earlville, and there was Hamilton. Always had jewelry stores...and they don't now. Wanda: That's true. Arthur: No. When I was a kid, you used to go to - or when  I started, I’d go to Newark Valley and stay half a day. And, ah, then I'd go to Nichols and stay half a day. And, ah, get an order. Wanda: Is that right? Arthur: But, you couldn't do that now. Wanda: Huh. Well, that's kinda sad, isn't it? Arthur: In a way, yes. Wanda: Yeah. Arthur: Those towns have...gone down markedly. Wanda: How ‘bout this…original man that you said inspired  you to become, get interested in jewelry in, in, ah, Chenango  Forks…what kind of a place did he have? A jewelry-? Arthur: Oh, a little bit of a, of a, ah…watchmaking shop. Wanda: Was it in the old hotel there or what? Arthur: No, it was the next building beyond that hotel, and it's, eh, where the post office is built out - ah, the building is, ah, the front built out on it? Wanda: Mm-hm, mm-hm. Arthur: That's where - Al Elliot, his name was. Wanda: Oh. Arthur: And, ah…ya know, he was…he was a pretty good watchmaker. He was a general mechanic. Wanda: Huh. Arthur: Ayuh, he was…he was very, ah, good  watchmaker, I think - but not a very good businessman, I don’t think. Wanda: [laughs] That’s- Arthur: Hey, he was long on guns. He could shoot…and, ah, he really could. He was a terrific marksman. Wanda: Huh. Arthur: Yeah. Wanda: So his store probably had a lot of other things besides watches in it, then. Arthur: Largely. Largely, I'd say. 'Twasn't much of a store. Wanda: [chuckles] Arthur: As you think of it now, not much of a store. But, he made a living there. Wanda: Uh-huh. Arthur: Had one of the first cars in Chenango Forks; an old, Maxwell car. Wanda: [laughs] Arthur: Ayuh. Wanda: I'd like to see that again. Arthur: You wouldn't see that, no. Wanda: Well, what, uh…anything more you wanna- Arthur: No, I don't want to- Wanda: -tell us about, to…? Arthur: I don't want to tell you any more. Wanda: I've taken up quite a bit of your time already, anyway. Arthur: No. I don't care about that. Wanda: Well, it's been very enjoyable and I want to thank you very much. Arthur: But I didn’t tell you much. Wanda: Oh, I think you did. Arthur: You do think so? Wanda: Yes.  Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Arthur G. Rider Subject The topic of the resource Rider, Arthur -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Chenango Bridge (N.Y.); Lancaster (Pa.); Jewelry; World War, 1939-1945; Diamonds; Jewelry trade; Jewelry stores; Wholesale trade Description An account of the resource Arthur Rider speaks of his childhood in Chenango Bridge and of becoming interested in watchmaking. He went to school in Lancaster, Pennsylvania for training. He became a jewelry salesman for a company in Syracuse and travelled thoughout New York State. He later opened his own wholesale jewelry store in . He discusses the impact that World War II had upon his business, as he purchased diamonds from suppliers in Europe. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 73 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c6e6e039fa2e63eb99318b3e3224a102.jpeg 3de3f6acae74084ef2a291834e526c2c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ebd1aac58bd71decc5144562bf6354d2.m4a ce5530381a7bceae723f391c1d114945 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/viewer/viewer.php?cachefiles=Wasyliw.xml Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website http://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=Wasyliw.xml OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ZenonWasyliw.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zenon Wasyliw Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dillon Eggleston and Grace Palumbo Biographical Text Zenon Wasyliw is a professor of History at Ithaca College. He is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Johnson City, New York. Both of his parents emigrated from Ukraine at the end of World War II after his father had been offered a position in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Binghamton as a choir director. He and his wife live together in Ithaca, and make the hour long drive to Johnson City each week to attend mass, although his wife is not of Ukrainian descent. He has traveled to Ukraine and Russia multiple times to tour the hometowns of his parents and do dissertation work at Kiev University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:15 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Language English Subject LCSH Wasyliw, Zenon. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Culture; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Ethnicity; Historians ; Ukrainian Orthodox Church; Ukrainian Catholic Church; Ethnic identity Digital Publisher Binghamton University Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Zenon Wasyliw Interviewed by: Grace Palumbo and Dillon Eggelston Transcriber: Grace Palumbo and Dillon Eggelston Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 12:00 pm Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Dillon Eggleston: Good afternoon, it's Sunday April 10th, 2016. I'm Dillon Eggleston. Grace Palumbo: And I'm Grace Palumbo. DE: And we're interviewing -- Zenon Wasyliw: Zenon Wasyliw, or Zenon Wasyliw. DE: And we're at Saint John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York and we'd like to begin our interview. So Professor Wasyliw, could you tell us when and where you were born? ZW: I was born not far from here on the north side of Johnson City. My parents came from Ukraine. DE: Can you tell us where in the Ukraine your family comes from? ZW: Well my father came from Stryi, which is in the Galician or Halychyna part and my mother came from the Volyn region, which was more in the northern part and that's where the both of them met and actually lived before living is in the Volyn region, in the northern region of Ukraine. GP: When did they come over to the United States? ZW: They came in 1948, along with my brother who was born in 1946. They lost three children before coming here. Two daughters died in a carpet bombing and a son who had died in a refugee camp. And so I'm the American- I was the American in the family because I was born here. DE: Did your family first settle in Binghamton or was this a later move? ZW: No, they first settled in this area. DE: In Johnson City? ZW: Well first in Binghamton, the area of Downs Avenue. And then they worked at Endicott Johnson and bought an Endicott Johnson house, an E.J. house. You've heard of that? DE: Oh yes yes, I had a maternal grandmother who worked for EJ as well. Did your family consider elsewhere before leaving the Ukraine? ZW: What's interesting is, though my dad came from a very poor family, to finish his education he went to a religious seminary but never got ordained. But he made a number of friends who told him they were leaving for the United States and that they would help sponsor him if he ever wanted to leave. And so it happened and they had become priests, Basilian Fathers, and so they filled out the paperwork and he was brought to Binghamton to be a choir director at the Ukrainian Catholic church. And so it was kind of a link of former friends. GP: Did you have any relatives here when your family came over? ZW: No, nope. Almost all the relatives stayed behind in Ukraine. An aunt and uncle did settle in Chicago. DE: You mentioned that your father was at the Ukrainian Catholic church. ZW: Yes. DE: But today we're at an Orthodox Church. ZW: Yes. DE: Can you tell us a little about that? ZW: Sure! You know in Ukraine, even now, it's very pluralistic religiously. You even have three Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions. And so my mother was born Ukrainian Orthodox but became Ukrainian Catholic and I grew up in the Ukrainian Catholic church. But there's always this pull, you know, with the Ukrainian Orthodox and I was hired at Ithaca College in 1989 and another lovely person was put into my office who became my wife -you met her in the social hall- and a very good friend of ours, he was the chairperson of the communication department and was also a Greek Orthodox priest. And so we decided to become Eastern Orthodox and it was important to maintain the heritage. And so we joined this parish. But I grew up with friends with both churches. But I kind of like with this parish, how can I put it, it's-- not to be unfair to the other parish, but it's a little less nationalistic and very accepting. I mean you have, most of the parish have, you know, non-Ukrainian spouses. We have people who aren't even of Ukrainian background who are members, the Parish president, Brian Baxendale. So in a way, it was a number of things, a very good friend of ours being an Orthodox priest, but also leaning toward -we had our issues with the Catholic Church too. And granted, and so we joined the parish, and then when our daughter was born in 1995, she was baptized here. And we would take the one-hour drive almost every week, and she went to religious instructions, and it was a very warm and accepting parish. So I don't know if that explains part of it, but yeah I mean, there are other issues too, where you have congregational control of finances, for example and a little bit more of a democratic spirit. But my brother still goes to the other church, I have many friends. DE: Have you visited the Ukraine since your family has come to America? ZW: I have. My area is East European history, Soviet history, and I first went in the summer of 1984 with a group of Canadian educators. And it was the first time, I met all of these distant, even you know, cousins, uncles and aunts, they gave me a very nice welcome. I had never met them before, but I used to write letters to my aunt and uncle in Ukraine. But I have a much larger extended family, and so that was really very, very interesting. But then I returned again in 1986 to do dissertation research and so I was at Moscow State University and Kiev State University. And then I returned in the 90s and 2000s, but to be honest since my mom passed away - my dad passed away '86 and then my mom passed away about ten years ago- I really haven't kept up with the family. DE: Can you tell us what it was like to meet these people for the first time? You had mentioned you had correspondence with them. ZW: Yeah, I had correspondence, more with my mom's side of the family, but less so with my father's. And they all started crying and you know they were us telling stories, it was a rough life. And my mom had actually visited there back in 1977, but you know when she told them about losing three kids and surviving and-- I mean it was. I had one uncle who was in the Soviet Army, who died and never found out where he was. I had another uncle I met, who was in the Red Army, in the Soviet Red Army. He was captured by the Germans, he escaped. He was a part of the French Resistance but then he got arrested because he was in France. But then he was a veteran, and then I had another uncle who fought for Ukrainian liberation. But you know, a number of them were taken away as slave laborers by the Germans as well. But they got me drunk a number of times. So it was interesting, it was more intentional, in 1984, type of stuff so. I should have been better in keeping in touch with them, so. GP: Was it difficult to get there because they were under Soviet rule at the time? ZW: Well, by 1984 things had opened up and I just didn't want to go as a tourist. So I went together with a group of Canadian educators, I was the only American in the group. And it was Ukrainian language and literature seminars in Kiev University, and then traveling around. I was still a member of the other parish and people had thought I'd become, you know, that I'm betraying whatever, but in a way it made a big impact, traveling there. So I learned a lot too and I picked up more of my language and became very fluent and kind of got a real flavor for it. And then in 1986 I was there from 86 into 1987, living in a dorm at Moscow State University, surviving on 350 Rubles a month, and it was after Chernobyl. And so I was in Kiev in December, but I'm glad I did it both times, because now when I teach, I have these great stories for my students. In terms of how my experiences, staying ahead of the authorities when making photocopies of documents or microfilms because I had a faculty mentor, who was from SUNY Albany, whenever I would make copies, he would take them from me and take them to the US embassy. And it would take them for a while to find out what I was photocopying. They would start restricting it and then I would go to another place to make microfilm and stuff like that. And my faculty mentor did the right thing because the materials were sent out by diplomatic pouch, 'because the authorities would never look at the stuff. So it was interesting. DE: Quickly, what was 300 Rubles, how much would that be in today's, do you know? ZW: Well, the problem at the time was, there wasn't stuff to buy using Rubles. But they did have specialty stores, for hard currency, but I didn't want to do it. And you know, to be honest, there were other people who were on an exchange who came from more affluent backgrounds. I was from SUNY, I didn't have, I did not have disposable income and so I tried to live like everyone else did. And so, I survived. In Moscow my uncle and cousin came up and they brought me dried fish and goods and stuff like that, which was an experience, which was nice. But you know, there were people that differentiated by us too. If you were a member of the party you were pretty well off. I made a number of British friends who were doing research, and we found out that one academy of sciences library archive had a good cafeteria. We would go there for lunch, I could go on and on. I tell my students these stories. DE: Do you have a strong sense of Ukrainian identity, despite being in the US and do you feel as though that's a different identity than the Catholic Church, which you mentioned was more nationalistic? ZW: Well, I mean, there are people related, distantly, between the two parishes. You know, I've lived in Ithaca where we're a very progressive community and for example the revolution that took place in Ukraine I see as very, very positive. Because it deals with building a civil society and an identity based on citizenship, not on nationality. And so in Ukraine, you could be Ukrainian background, you could be Russian background, you could be Jewish, you could be Muslim and you're a citizen of Ukraine. And so for me it's really a cultural identity. And you know, the more the merrier. And in a way this parish really represents this because it's more identity based and kind of sharing a culture, you know, if you've looked at the hall, you've looked around here, people are very proud of their heritage. Even though there isn't a strict lineage of Ukrainian, you marry Ukrainian. But to me it's more of a cultural affinity. And my wife is not of Ukrainian background but she really likes the parish, she's a member of the sisterhood, I sing in the choir, can't make it every Sunday. But our daughter, you know, loves this parish. Her name is Victoria, she decided to take her Ukrainian name, Vika, V-I-K-A. She's a third-year student at Northeastern, electrical engineering major. Pat and I are historians, but to her, the identity is really important, and people from the parish send her letters. You know, they give little scholarships for college students from here. And so it's a nice -do you see what I mean? It's beyond just identity, but it's a community, centered around this cultural identity that's still very important to people. GP: How long have you spoken Ukrainian? ZW: Since I was born. It's an interesting situation, where my parents would start talking to me in English, but I refused to speak to them in English. I would speak to them in Ukrainian because to me, I knew that was their native language. And so we had the Giant Market, you remember the Giant Market? DE: Yes. ZW: They would start talking to me in English and I would respond to them in Ukrainian. It was probably why I became a historian, kind of a contrarian type of person. Of course when I was in Ukraine, I really worked on picking up more of the literary language, so I'm pretty fluent in it. GP: Does your daughter speak Ukrainian as well? ZW: Oh she's angry at me that I didn't teach her any. I started to, but you know, she might pick it up. But do you see what I mean, identity is wide open. But you know it also comes up with January seventh is when we celebrate Christmas, Ukrainian Christmas and Easter follows an Eastern Orthodox calendar and you know, we do a number of other traditions as well. DE: What smells remind you of Ukraine? ZW: Cabbage. DE: Cabbage? GP: Cabbage? ZW: Otherwise known as Kapusta. You know it's a very durable food, that and potatoes. Actually when I was living in the dorms, back in the 80s, there was always plenty of cabbage and potatoes, I mean, it's like the Irish. I don't know if you know a little Irish history, they had their famine, and everyone had to leave and they had to deal with the English. And with the Ukrainians it was the same thing, they had this traumatic famine, people had to leave, they had to deal with the Russian Empire. When they made food to sell they do cabbage rolls, and the pierogis out of potatoes. GP: I was reading about that online, looked good. ZW: Well, you should come. GP: How do the cultural values of people in the US seem to differ from those of the Ukraine? ZW: When you have a community like this, there's a sense of watching out for one another and even though, you know, we're not related by blood, there is this feeling of an extended family. And I think that's becoming less and less common in the US. People are kind of more atomized, kind of go off on their own, and so that I think is very nice. And in Ukraine it's more pluralistic and one of my areas of study is sociology of religion and in Ukraine there's Ukrainian Greek Catholic church, there’s a Roman Catholic church, there are three different Ukrainian Orthodox churches, because we argue. I mean, do you see what I mean? It's more fluid. There's a strong Jewish community there. A Muslim community. The fastest growing religion is Mormonism. So, part of it is, because even with Poland, you have the Catholic Church, in Russia it's the Russian Orthodox Church under the Patriarch. And part of the Ukrainian culture is there's this strong identity and feel of attachment, but this kind of, probably why we haven't had political independence as much. Because you kind of have this real diversity of thought and attachment. I hope that makes sense. GP: Yeah. ZW: And in a way Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic, and there are Ukrainian Protestants in the area too. Pentecostalists. DE: So, you mentioned that your wife wasn't Ukrainian but she's since been accepted into the parish. ZW: Oh very nicely. DE: How has this differed from other marriages that have been within the parish itself? ZW: This parish is very, very welcoming. I think most of the marriages are Ukrainian non-Ukrainian, actually. You read the liturgy; most of it is in English. But people still maintain the other traditions, I think it was a long-term priest here, Father Lawryk and his wife, who really had this "Let's welcome everyone in but share the culture." So, you know, the deacon who was serving today, he's not of Ukrainian background, but he married someone from the parish. And then there's another example, I'm forgetting his name, his last name is Baxter, where as a kid, he kind of he got into trouble and one Ukrainian family kind of adopted him and he started going to dance and rehearsals and everything else. He became a Ukrainian Orthodox priest. Not one little iota of even Ukrainian background. So I mean it's this kind of fluid, more fluid identity, which is nice. But I think looking at community and having shared cultural values, and with this family you have these core families, larger families, and you know attendance can vary. When they all come together at Easter, the place fills up. Hope I'm not giving too long answers. GP and DE: No, no these are the are great. DE: Did your parents have trouble assimilating to American culture when they came over? ZW: Well, in some ways yes, because the parish became the center of their life and you know, my father was the choir director and my mom volunteered a lot with preparing food and raising funds and with organization. But you know, they also had friends beyond the community as well, I think as time went on. And you know with my brother and me, that kind of bring things out, but clearly the focus -you know, what would happen is since many people at Sacred Heart had to leave quickly and many of their relatives stayed behind, you would have a system of Godparents. And so my Godmother, Yechyk, I became closer with that family. My mother was Godmother of Stephan and then my brother had -you see what I'm getting at? There are ways of kind of creating another form of an extended family. They're always going to feel like I'm a member of that parish, which is fine and I still stay in contact with them. So we kind of have this interesting cultural adaptation with Godparents and making those kinds of relations as well. I think in this parish -because this was formed in 1926- you're already getting into fourth generation members and a bit at Sacred Heart. You have a number of people who are interrelated as well but extended families are pretty strong here too. GP: Are there any elements of American culture that you prefer over Ukrainian culture or vice versa? ZW: Well, you know American culture is so different. I've lived in Ithaca since 1989, and we have our own culture there! And so both my wife and I were, Ithaca is a very caring and open-minded community and so that's kind of our view of American Ithaca culture. And I think American culture is changing a bit and even in Ukraine it depends what region of Ukraine you go to you'll find differences as well. What I think is still important is this sense of having some kind of identity, having a community. I mean, when the parish puts on their Ukrainian Days Festival, it's amazing. Everyone just comes together, volunteers, no one gets paid. People come together, they volunteer, their time, the choir sings, there are dancers, you know they make $30,000 to $35,000 to help support the church. And so do you see it's kind of this volunteerism, caring for one another; people aren't really talking American politics here either, because that could be pretty lethal. That's the one thing missing at Ithaca, because you don't have these ethnic communities. There's so many university students. Sometimes we'll go to the Greek Church, but it's nothing like here. And so, in a way, you know, it's very accepting, but still it's nice to have a community and our daughter really benefitted a lot by it. Because you know, coming here every week when my mother was still alive, she got to see her grandmother. But it has this other alternative community that she can look forward to. And her friends don't always understand this. Members of the Sisterhood sent her a box of cookies and wrote her a personal letter, and she put it up on her bulletin board. She says "Look, people care." And so, I think that's a big thing. And you know, the communities can vary in identity, this is a far more assimilated parish because the founders, there are very few people who were born in Ukraine here. Then at Sacred Heart it's a different situation, but even they're kind of adapting and you know they have an English liturgy there too, so it depends. But I'm warped by it, actually I'm a little critical, I don't know if you've ever heard the term "ten square miles surrounded by reality." That's what defines Ithaca, and I just see these bumper stickers. And when you have an Ivy League university and Ithaca College, which is a private university, it kind of brings in a lot of wealth. And you can kind of live this lifestyle, believing you know a lot of stuff being out of touch with the rest of the world. I hope you understand what I'm getting at. And Universities can be real bubbles too. DE: Can you tell us how you and your wife met? ZW: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because we were both grad students at Binghamton University, but she was Medieval and I did East Europe, so we knew of each other but then, we were both hired at Ithaca College at the same time and put in the same office, [laughter], and it was, in a way, what also happened is a lot of older faculty, but they really liked us. And that's the other kind of thing that there's less of, they would have dinner parties and we would be invited, and as I've mentioned, part of the group was a Greek Orthodox priest who later became a metropolitan, archbishop, but he loved to party. And, you know, we said; well let's have Gus perform the ceremony, so we kind of had our own little group as well. But since he was a good friend of ours, we had the wedding there [in Ithaca]. But there was a priest here, Father Myron, who I would stay in touch with and he kept sending parish bulletins, and when our daughter was to be born we decided, well, you know, we want to give her all of this, and it was the right move. Now, in the mid-1990s, the latter part of the nineties, Ithaca College let go of a bunch of people, and my wife was one of them, but then she got a job at Cornell. She's an assistant dean for admissions and advising, but she does international admissions for the liberal arts school. So she's been to, just last year she's been to India for two weeks, through a full break, Armenia in the fall, Japan in January. She's been to Australia, then China a couple of times, different places in Europe, nice places in Europe. I laugh because, a little over ten years ago, as part of a grant that sent me to less favorable parts of Eastern Europe, not the capitals, but these other places, so we make the commute here, [to this parish], whenever we can. When our daughter was still going to classes here, and my mother was alive, we almost made it every week, but now it's more like once or twice a month. DE: Was your wedding based in Ukrainian culture? ZW: No, it was a Greek Orthodox ceremony in English, though my best man, Mike Lowa, did a few things in Ukrainian. He's belonged to three different parishes, but it was really a very, met a few Ukrainians from Sacred Heart, but it was professors, and family who was there, along with a few faculty members who were there. So, there weren't many [Ukrainians], that wasn't as important to us. It was important to have friends there, and friends performing the ceremony. And we had an open bar. [Laughter]. And it was all in Ithaca, which was neat. GP: Do you think your Ukrainian heritage influenced you to become a historian? ZW: Oh, definitely. You know, I had, because my grandparents were in Ukraine, I had replacement grandparents, and I heard so many stories from them, and they came from different regions of Ukraine. And, my dad and mom would tell a lot of stories, and a lot of people in the community would push for their children to get degrees in engineering, and medicine, and stuff like that, but they just didn't have people who would study history, because what do you do with a degree in history? But I was also thinking of going into high school teaching. Things just kind of-- you know how they can build, you know, here I am at Binghamton, okay, I'll become a history major, I'll get an MAT, though, I went to Harvard summer school when I was a junior, and they said you should keep getting a PhD, you know this stuff really well. And I said, well there so much work in a PhD, so instead I got an MAT to teach high school social studies, and I did that a little bit, but then people said you should keep on going and I got another master’s, and then a PhD. And, in a way, I was trying to look at Ukrainian history form a larger perspective, and it was in the spring of 1989, we were going to Cornell to do some research, and we were passing Ithaca College. I looked to the right and I said, I would like to teach here. Two weeks later, a job opened up, and they hired me. So, it was meant to be. But, I'm always careful. My research was on Ukrainian history, and as when the Soviet Union fell apart, suddenly there weren't many people who knew about this part of the world, because the idea was, well, you study Russian history, because that's the "empire," and you didn't have as many people looking at other parts of the Soviet Union, in part to employability. But at Ithaca College, I really liked it; because I taught a variety of courses and then when they found out I had an MAT, they asked me to coordinate the social studies teacher education program. SO, I have this whole other community. We put out 3-5 people a year, and we have this closed Facebook group of graduates who are social studies teachers or administrators. And I was chair of the history department for six years, and interim director of the gerontology institution. So, I do a lot of different things, and teach different courses, but in a way, being interested in the family past, and trying to make sense of really tragic histories all around, and so, here we are. DE: What was your thesis? ZW: I was planning to do a dissertation on secular rituals, and to replace sacred rituals. But they hired a new dissertation director, and she was Heather's [DeHaan] dissertation advisor at Toronto, but her name was Viola, and what Viola basically said was, well pick a topic on peasants or peasants. And so, I decided to look at the status of the Ukrainian countryside in the 1920s. It was very interesting because, in the 1920s, with the Soviet history, they actually became much more liberal. They didn't have collective farms, and they had a policy of nativization, where they were pushing, and teaching in native languages. And so in was in the 1920s that for the first time-- because during the Russian Empire, they banned Ukrainian-- they had a number of decrees where Ukrainian was not only not to be taught, but it was not even allowed to be written. And so, you could get in trouble. The portrait of the poet Taras Shevchenko on the right, [on the wall of the room], was a serf, and he was, his freedom was bought, and he started writing poetry. He was in St. Petersburg as an artist, but they sent him off to Siberia, and he started writing in Ukrainian. But his Ukrainian became kind of a social history because he wrote about the struggles of everyday people and stuff like that. And he was always repressed, and there was always this pressure on the language. The Ukrainian part that was in Austria, they were allowing for more. But then, in 1921, the Soviet government said, in order to convince people to be Communist, we have to teach them in their native language. And so a decree went out, 'everyone is now going to learn Ukrainian.' They also created a separate Ukrainian republic, Soviet Republic, and you had the first president of Ukraine, independent Ukraine, coming back and the danger was that in the Soviet Union, you had a very strong Ukrainian identity. People were speaking Ukrainian, and so I'm looking at this period where, suddenly, people are speaking in their native language, literacy rates are improving. But on the other hand, they're not taking on a Soviet identity, they're taking on more of the Ukrainian identity. And so, when Stalin takes power in 1928, all of this is just going to be crushed. So, to make a long story short, that's it. The areas that I'm studying, neither of my parents come from really, but I thought it was a good social history. So the challenges to get the voice of the people up, and very often, people didn't write, but it was a period of even Soviet history that was more relaxed, up until Stalin came. GP: What were your parent's experiences in Ukraine, or in the USSR even? ZW: Well, my dad was older, and he was born in what was the Austrian Empire. The memoires of that era were better, but, I mean, it was during the First World War, and as a child he remembers different armies coming and going and coming and going. And then Ukraine became part of Poland, which was kind of difficult, because if you were of Ukrainian background, you kind of couldn't really get jobs. My mother was a bit younger, but he grew up in a city, which was much different. And that probably impacted me too, because you had Poles and Jews living in the city, and so, she never learned how to embroider, she never did the Easter eggs. Do you see what I'm getting at? A lot of this [the culture] is still pretty much a village culture, and so, in a way, I may have been advantaged. My dad came from a very, very poor family, but at the time the Austrian government stated opening up gymnasiums, kind of schools, that carried on, and when it was time to continue the education, it was difficult. With thirteen kids in the family, my father couldn't afford it, and then he found out that you could go to school for free at a religious seminary, and so he went off, and finished his degree there. Then, he studied Latin, among other things. He never became a priest, but kind of came back and was pretty much unemployed. Eventually, he was hired to be a choir director, and stuff like that. When the Soviets came in, because he was literate, he actually got a job, helping edit a newspaper. People around here wouldn't like to hear that, of course, but, you know, there are different stories. Then, they asked him to teach because my father, by this time, knew seven languages. But, there was always this threat, they [the Soviets] would say, 'we know you have a religious background,' and that was always going to hang over his head. So, I think he was able to stay neutral when he was teaching, and then when the Nazis came in, he just stayed teaching in the school there. Aunts and uncles were taken away as forced laborers, Eastern workers, but he hung in there. Towards the end of the war he had to decide, 'do I stay, even though I have these friends in the United States who might sponsor me? Or, do I chance it with the state?' You know, he never held a gun. It's a very unique story, you would laugh. He was in the Soviet army for three days, and they kind of had him take notes on supplies, and then he was in the Polish army for three hours or something. But throughout the entire experience, he never was part of any military, which is very unique, I think. And so, trains were leaving for the West, and they had to decide, and they ended up going. And, they lost two kids in a massive bombardment. They ended up in a refugee camp, and then a son passed away. You know, it kind of reminds me of all of the stuff going on in Syria now. But, sure enough, they got to New York City. His friends from the seminary met him at the boat, at the dock, and then put him on a train to Binghamton. The people here were very nice, very supportive. What was interesting, when I got back in 1984, my aunt was telling me that the Soviet authorities kept bugging her to talk my dad into coming back. I mean, in a way that means he probably wasn't in as much trouble as others. But you know, you couldn't have trusted that. But, my aunt was very outspoken, and she said 'I told them, I wouldn't trust you, you guys are liars!' And her poor husband, who was a veteran, was like 'quiet, quiet, don't say anything like that!' DE: Why didn't your parents stay in New York City? ZW: Because part of my father's justification for coming here, was that they needed a choir director in Binghamton. GP: Did your parents ever go back to Ukraine? ZW: My mother did, in 1977. What happened was, when they got here, my father went to work at Endicott-Johnson, and my mother worked at Don McCarthy shoe factory. Much later, when my father worked in the factory, and he worked second shift, my mom worked first shift, so someone would be home. During dinner breaks, my dad would read books. So one day, his friend said 'Bill, listen.' He went by Bill because my parents were Visil and Maria, and when they got citizenship, they changed it to William and Mary, and my dad went by Bill. They gave me my name because it was very historic. But anyway, his friends would say 'Bill, you can be a teacher,' and towards the end, before he retired, he got certified to teach German and Russian, and he taught for a few years. And that kind of had an impact on my brother and I. My brother is ten years older, but he ended up going to SUNY Cortland, a PE major, but went on to get a PhD in anatomy, and a medical doctor, and just retired from practicing orthopedic surgery in this area. I mean, life is more complex, because you'll say 'oh, first generation college' and whatever else, but it's kind of muddled that way as well. DE: What were the seven languages that your father knew? ZW: Gee, well, we have Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, German, Latin, Greek, and I'm forgetting what other one. Because he knew the Slavic languages, he would've picked that up. But, you know, that would be the thing. There were other like him, who were educated, but in the US, people hear you speak with an accent and they think you're stupid. But that wasn't the case. But it's a nice community here, or at least it was. It's kind of scary when you now have this Islamophobia, and Dearborn, Michigan has a large concentration of Muslims, but they're very assimilated, and acclimated. People would come here because they saw opportunity. It's in Europe that the Muslims weren't as accepted as well. This area has had a lot of refugees come in. But one of the differences is that when my parents came, there was already an established community, and people were helping them out. DE: Have your children been to Ukraine? ZW: No. But at some point. You see, my wife's the good travel organizer, and she's looking to at some point arrange the right time. I have a step-daughter, who's older now and who just got back to Ithaca recently. She has a library science degree she got from Michigan. She was working at SUNY Potsdam and then met a web developer who's at St. Lawrence University. To our great fortune, he got a job at Cornell, and she got a job at Ithaca College as a librarian. Our younger daughter is at Northeastern, and they require three six-month co-ops, and that means she works form January until the end of June. This summer she's off to Italy, taking two four-credit classes. So, it's a matter of timing and money, as to when we'll go there. But, you know, I have a conference in New York, Association for the Study of Nationalities, and my wife has already planned out, there are a number of Ukrainian restaurants. And, you know, we visited the Ukrainian museum, and we support the church as well, so, kind of aligned, but we're not professional Ukrainians. I mean, it's important, but, it's part of our multi-faceted life. GP: What's your favorite Ukrainian recipe? ZW: My wife a great cook, but being in Ithaca, I prefer more vegetarian options, so the cabbage rolls with either rice and mushrooms, or buckwheat kasha. When I was over there, other Americans who were in Russia or Ukraine couldn't handle the buckwheat kasha, and I love that stuff, so I think that's also differentiated. But there's a lot of foods that I like. We had pierogies last night, and what's nice is that, when they make them here, if there's leftover dough, they let people take it home. So my wife made some potato pierogies. But usually I like the sauerkraut filling. DE: Can you tell us about Ukrainian music? ZW: Oh, yeah. It's lyrical. Often, Ukrainian will be compared to Italian. It's a very kind of lyrical language; it's kind of a sing-song language. I sang in the choir in the basses today and, you know, a cappella is the way the liturgy works, and everything is sung. Although at Sacred Heart they recite more often now. But, you know the choral music is nice, the folk music as well. It's a very, very rich musical culture. They had a priest and his wife here for decades, who did a really nice job in terms of all of the folk arts that were here, and putting in a folk choir, and stuff like that. But you know, in Ukraine, they have reggae, Ukrainian reggae, and other types of similar music. I don't' know if you've heard of 'Gogo' or there's another group as well, with very kind of a blend of new age and folk music. So there's a lot of different varieties. But I do admit, I like singing in the bass section of the choir. DE: Would your parents have listened to the reggae Ukrainian music, or was that not around yet? ZW: They didn't know what it was. So, I mean, you hear different musical styles, but I'm a reggae fan, or old music. DE: I think we've got a lot of information so thank you so much. GP: Thank you so much. ZW: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zenon Wasyliw Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wasyliw, Zenon ; Eggleston, Dillon ; Palumbo, Grace Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Zenon Wasyliw is a professor of History at Ithaca College. He is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Johnson City, New York. Both of his parents emigrated from Ukraine at the end of World War II after his father had been offered a position in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Binghamton as a choir director. He and his wife live together in Ithaca, and make the hour long drive to Johnson City each week to attend mass, although his wife is not of Ukrainian descent. He has traveled to Ukraine and Russia multiple times to tour the hometowns of his parents and do dissertation work at Kiev University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Zenon Wasyliw.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 54:15 Subject The topic of the resource Wasyliw, Zenon. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Culture; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2e59527ded2e9601aee5939924d74b81.mp3 5bd4fad5db616f38e418cced94cc7f69 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrianna Watson Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Biographical Text Adrianna Watson is a college student majoring in Law and is a second generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in Johnson City. She lives in the Southern Tier of New York with her large, extended family.  Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 71:36 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Watson, Adrianna. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Ukrainian folk dancing; Ukrainian cooking; Summer camps; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AdriannaWatson.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Ethnicity; College students; Holidays; Binghamton (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Oral History Project Interview with: Adrianna Watson Interviewed by: McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Transcriber: McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:00 AM Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) McKenna Hage: OK, so would you mind just stating your name and date of birth where you're from for us? Adrianna Watson: Adriana Watson, Umm1/14/97 and I am from Binghamton New York right here. I am born in JC Wilson Hospital, so right here. MH: And can you just tell us a little about yourself? AW: Yeah, I am a college student at BCC. I actually just changed my major to law, I'm going for to become a lawyer. I am Ukrainian, very proud to be Ukrainian. I come from a huge, huge, huge family [laughs]. Church is basically all my family plus some, it's kind of ridiculous. I don't know what else you wanna know? MH: You said you're proud to be Ukrainian, what are some of the things that you really take pride in and how has it shaped who you are? AW: I take pride in that I can say that I am Ukrainian, that I've been given this so and so freedom, since Russia is always there trying to take over the country and what not. Being an independent from and being an independent country, even though I was not from Ukraine, I am American born, I take-- it is very -- it is very important to me to always share my heritage to everyone, no matter who they are. And I take very much pride because my family rose me Ukrainian. My first language was Ukrainian even though I was American born. So but I am not as fluent as I used to be, but it is still a lot of fun. Holidays always around Ukrainian, Easter is ridiculous, Christmas is even more ridiculous. We have about oh! a good 100 people over at the house. MH: Woo, that's a lot. AW: Yes it is, we have dinner there. We have a whole bunch of the certain meals that we have to eat a certain way and we pull the hair and we tap the spoon on the head with peas and what not, it is a lot of fun. All home-made food, my grandma makes all the food, it is ridiculous and then we go to midnight mass, and then we go to my priest's house with caroling. And it's a lot of fun. Easter is a lot of fun too. I just, my friends have always been, want to know so much about me being Ukrainian just because I am so open about it. I am very open about who I am, where I come from, I like to explain to people. I like to tell people how proud I am to be Ukrainian. Actually, in fourth grade I was in the paper. My teacher saw how proud I am of my heritage, and I was in the paper for it. It was, it was a lot of fun and I've been very open about it and just, it's just been around me my whole life. My whole family, here obviously, is just so into it. So I've grown to be into it as well. MH: Now, when did-- were your parents born here? AW: My parents were born here. My grandmother was born here. My grand-father wasn't. So that's where I am second, I am the second generation and my great-grandparents were or my grandmothers grandparents were born in Ukraine, so that's where I am the third generation, kind of confusing I know, but that's where I am from. MH: What were-- what brought your grandparent over from Ukraine? AW: Which, my grandfather? MH: Yes. AW: Okay, my grandfather because he was in such turmoil in Ukraine, and he was separated from his family when he was very young, at my age around 18/19 years old. He was actually from Ukraine, separated from his family, taken to I believe Germany and that's where he was pretty much raised. So he kind of spoke a lot more German than Ukrainian, because that's where he was living, so then his family was moved to Poland. So my grandparents' family is in Poland right now instead of Ukraine, but they are Ukrainian. Another confusing kind of thing. But then he came over here because Germany was in such turmoil with the World Wars and whatnot so he came over here though I think Parris Island? No not Parris Island, what am I thinking. Ellis Island. My friends are from Parris Island. Ellis Island, I actually went to Ellis Island, his name is there, it's very touching, very cool. It's very cool you know to see your grandfather's' name, he died of cancer but that's another story. So that's how he came over here. My great grandparents came over here I believe to get married. I am not 100% sure because I never met them, and my grandmother just always tells me how wonderful and good people they were. "titka" means "aunt" in Ukrainian by the way, just a Ukrainian term. They were like the first of the church, and brought up through the church and knew the old church so I think that's what they were. They help built it and stuff like that, my grandfather did, my great father did at least. MH: Did your grandfather, since he grew up in and spent a lot of time in Germany, was he still able to maintain his Ukrainian heritage? AW: Yes, oh yes. He came over here and was like we're raising my kids Ukrainian, that is it, end of story. No matter how long he was in Germany, he did teach my mom and my aunts a little German, because you know it better to know more languages, right? So, but he was definitely hardcore Ukrainian just like the rest of my family is. MH: Did he settle right in Binghamton? AW: Oh, yes. He settled right here in Binghamton and that's how he met my grandmother, yeah. MH: Wow. AW: Yeah, yeah. MH: Do you know of any struggles or hardships he might have faced? AW: Oh, man, in Germany? MH: In Germany and here in Binghamton. AW: Okay, in Germany, I know one story my grandmother would always tell me was, he remembered bombs and he remembered being in a ditch for days, because bombs kept going off off and off. And I think that was his last straw to come over here. Over here he met my grandmother right off the bat so they got married rather quickly, and they started having kids. My grandmother was raised on the farm so she was kind of independent, she was the oldest. Very independent, you know, I am my own woman but we're going to get married. They raised four kids, and it was very hard, they were poor, they did not come from wealth at all. So they raised their own name, and through the church- the church really helped bring them, you know- give them family, give them more purpose kind of thing. So religion was very important to them. My grandfather, when he became ill, was when the hardship really happened and my mom was I think nine when he passed. So my grandmother was basically left alone to raise four kids by herself, she had two jobs, so really they came from nothing. They did it! And my uncle is a doctor, my aunt's a nurse, you know, very successful, but they did it. It's- it's amazing how, you know, they came from literally nothing and he came from such distraught and torn away from his family and he comes over here but still had nothing. But family was really important in the Ukrainian heritage, extremely important. I can't even emphasize that enough because without family-- it's just-- It's very prominent. Kevin Hiller: So, what are your favorite kind of family traditions that you have? AW: Oh, I love these, Oh Christmas is just the best time of year, I love Christmas that are just all-around family. We invite everyone over that is family, even non-family you know, we just bring everyone in. Another tradition is making pysanky. I love making pysanky at Easter time; Ukrainian Easter eggs. Ukrainian dancing-was just a lot of fun; I graduated so I kind of had to end that. But it was just a ton of fun. Man, everything about being Ukrainian comes with it, eating food, making paskas, making food, learning how to make food-amazing. Because I get to experience that and not a lot of people do, you know. And I am very grateful for that and I take that to heart for me, because my grandma is passing on her traditions on to me which is amazing, it's just a lot of fun. MH: Do you have any other family stories that really stand out or mean a lot to you as a Ukrainian that you've heard? AW: Oh boy, let me think-- my grandmother, other than being strong, my grandfather coming from absolutely nothing--oh boy. I know a lot of.. Another one of my other cousins Hegoslavka, I think you guys interviewed her. Did you guys interview her? MH: This is my first time-- KH: Yes, this is my first interview too. AW: Oh cool, ok, so another group interviewed her last time, so they might have a little more detail, but she went through hell and back. Excuse my French. But it was, she went through everything. Literally in Ukraine, didn't know where to sleep, didn't know where she was going to eat. She didn't know, she would sell coats, she would wear five or six coats, she would just sell them for money, for anything. She sold everything. She had a whole family she had to provide for, and she did. She did it. I mean through bombing, through raids, through you know witnessing shootings right in front of her eyes. Witnessing her family being killed. It was horrible, but she survived it, again family really is what brought her to America and what really kept her alive- her providing for her family. And her trying everything she can to keep her family alive is- that amazing and it's an amazing story. She's gone through, I don't know, a lot. I only know little snippets because she becomes very emotional obviously talking about it, but ugh, she-- Ukrainian women and men are just so strong, they have been through literally everything. So even as little as going to the doctor and admitting that they need help is just so hard for them because you know they don't want to do it, they're strong, you know what I mean? It's just ugh, it's just amazing, you know, what you're capable of when you are put in those situations. And she did the impossible. She literally came and didn't know where to sleep, slept on the road, slept on different couches, just knocked on doors and just asked to sleep and eat. They ate bread and that was it, another reason why there is bread everywhere [Laughter]. Why we eat so much bread, but yeah, her story is amazing, I only know snippets, but it is an amazing story. MH: Have you ever been to the Ukraine or would you like to visit one day? AW: Oh, I have never been, but I am dying to visit, when, once I graduate college, and get my feet together, I definitely want to travel the world, and my first place would be Ukraine. And Poland because to visit my family. But I have been offered many times to go to Ukraine, money wise, it's hard because I'm only a college student, so you know what it is. [Laughter] But yeah, definitely one day. Definitely. MH: Do you know where in Ukraine your family hailed from, was it rural was it in the city? AW: It was more rural, really, it was villages, umm the villages they came from are not there anymore. So, if I told you, it would be- you'd be like "What? Where?" So, it's more in Western Ukraine, near Poland, that's why Poland was the best route for them, they were more near the border. Kiev, I have family from Kiev, I know people from Kiev, which is the capital. But yeah, more western Ukraine. Southern-Western, something like that, I'm trying to look at that map [points to a map on the wall] but yeah that's where they're pretty much from. MH: Have you ever faced any sort of discrimination being Ukrainian here in Binghamton or was there ever a period where the church came under fire for anything in the community? AW: Umm, I personally, I've experienced some kind of, you know, hesitance for being Ukrainian. To be honest I really- it was an awful situation and someone was like "oh well you're Ukrainian so it doesn't matter what you say". Something kind of like that. That kind of was just a sentence but it kind of was like really? Really? Really? We're in America, we live in such different ethnicity, like come on. But I have, but I still say I'm proud. I don't care what people say, I am Ukrainian, if you don't like it, get on with your life, that's pretty much me. What was your other question? MH: I think you pretty much covered it. But in contrast to that, what are some of the good things that you have experienced? AW: Just reaching out to the people and, you know, connecting to people, you know. I drive down the high way. I've a Tryzub which is the Ukrainian symbol on the back of my car and you know, seeing other people Tryzubs, I honk [Laughter], I say "hey what's up, we were like connected," you know. At BU, I mean BCC, even at BU, I met Ukrainians and stuff like that. There is a lot of Ukrainian out there I didn't know about, I mean they came over from Ukraine and they're starting over at BCC and stuff like that. So, I met a lot people there which is very cool because we connect obviously. I mean I reach out to every Ukrainian I can and I say "oh, you're Ukrainian? Alright, cool, we're new best friends." Like that kind of thing. I've um, I just-- it is just a lot of fun. I go to Ukrainian camp in Ellenville, New York, and I do that my whole life and I've met whole many amazing, amazing friends over there. It is a like a whole new network of friends. Just kinda weird we talk about how my American friends and I met my Ukrainian friends because they're totally different. They really are. How we act together is just totally different, it is a lot of fun. I definitely reach out to other Ukrainians and I definitely, you know, say "Hey, what's up? Let's talk" and stuff like that. Because why not, you know? I mean we're pretty small. I mean Ukraine is pretty desperate and you know not very rich so, might as well reach out to other Ukrainians and see how their life is and see what they've gone through, and what I've gone through and stuff like that. MH: Can you explain how your American friends and Ukrainian friends are different? AW: My American friends, they're very interested but--they are not as religious, and I don't want to put that as how different they are. But they're not as, like, family oriented. Like for example, my one friend, she's an only child, she barely spends time with her family. She's kind of out of the house doing whatever she wants. Me, on the weekends, I am family, 100%, all the time. Literally, I sleep over at her house, eight o'clock in the morning have something to do, always something to do. And so I leave, I go to my family, Ukrainian stuff, obviously, and then church obviously on Sunday, so that's another thing. My Ukrainian friends were very- we're all the same. We're all around family, we're all around religion, we are very--we just kind of act the same too. We have like a different--persona about ourselves, you know what I mean? So, it just, it's just different in that sense of how family means to one another. Not to be like, "Americans don't think family means anything to them", because they do. But it's just the difference of celebrating certain things like holidays and stuff like that. Like how we celebrate Christmas and Easter. You know, my American friends really don't celebrate as in depth as I do. And my Ukrainian friends, we do. Or when we go out, we have zabavas. Zabavas' dances. It's totally different being Ukrainian. All we do is Ukrainian dance. That's it. So Ukrainian dancing is another huge thing that is just different. I polka. I polka and waltz. So, my friends, they're not used to polka-ing or waltzing, so when they come to our zabavas, our dances, they're like "What the heck is this music? This is like from the 1930's". I am like, "It's okay, you just go with it, it is just one two three, you just go". But yeah, it's different in that kind of aspect, just how we live life and stuff like that, which is okay. It's definitely okay. I definitely have a big influence on my American friends' lives and I definitely bring them into my life since it is so different, but I definitely make it work at the same time, so it's a lot of fun. KH: What are some common misconceptions that people might have about Ukraine and what would you like them to know or what people think of the community here in Binghamton? AW: I think sometimes people think that we are too hard headed, that we're too- we don't, I smile a lot because- but I know a lot of people from Ukraine they don't really smile. They don't really want to get to know other people, you just have to let them in. Once you go ahead, and you're in, they are so heartwarming. They're so caring, because they have been through hell and back, excuse my French again. [Laughter] But they're very hard people. They're very hard to read, very hard to crack a smile with. You know, you have my uncles who are from here, they've been through- they have been through it all too and they really sometimes it's like- I'll even be like "Oh, well should I say that? Should I not say that? I don't know what to say", you know what I mean? But once you get to know a Ukrainian, men or women, they are very caring. They will do anything for you because they know what it is like, and they know that if you go through something that they'll help you. I think that's the most- that's hardest thing for other people to get in on with Ukrainians. I smile a lot because that's just my personality. I'm a very open person, very open minded, but a lot of Ukrainians just cut it off and just don't want to get hurt from other people, because they have been. So I think that is the most--yeah. MH: Do you think that's changing all with the younger generations? AW: I do. Me, personally, I do. My generation has been very open and honest. I think it is just the older generation because they did come from Ukraine and did come from just distraught and what not like that. MH: Do you know how the community here in Binghamton has changed since your grandparents and great grandparents immigrated? Do you know how the history has been influenced? AW: We try to keep the history of Ukraine to the history of Ukraine. We know that it's changing. We know that the language is changing, with the new dialects are whatnot. We are considered, what my grandmother likes to say, the "old regime language", which means that sometimes when we communicate with other Ukrainians it is difficult to understand them because they're more, I don't want to say "Russianized" because they are from Eastern Ukraine. They come over here and we're like, "Wait what are you talking about?". So, it's difficult to communicate anymore with other Ukrainians but we still do it, we accept it, we are very open about it because we understand that it's always going to change. The community is changing to be more open minded and more open to other people coming to our heritage. We understand that we can't have all Ukrainians here in this church, we can't have all Ukrainians everywhere. I mean, we're going to marry other people, it's not going to always be Ukrainian. And I mean you just gotta open up and make the community wide. Any, you know, my father's not Ukrainian, he' English. My mom married him, and he came to the church and he considers himself Ukrainian because we're so open about it. We bring 'em in and we're like "Listen, you're part Ukrainian now". He was baptized in this church. Yeah, he was baptized in this church and everything. And he is now a Ukrainian dance teacher, I mean he literally never knew anything Ukrainian a day in his life before my mom, so-- [Laughter] That's a lot of aspect to how it is changing, bringing more people in and trying to introduce our culture to theirs. MH: Do you know what your father really found shocking at first or what he sort of loves most about becoming this new Ukrainian? AW: Family. MH: Family? AW: He really does. I mean, his family, it's not perfect, no family is perfect, but it's very kind of just distraught. They are not very close, they're not very like "Oh, let's hang out every holiday". Our family, doesn't matter what holiday it is. Thanksgiving we have a huge party, big family comes over, everyone comes over. So, I think that is what he really likes the most is how he has made so much family here, that he considers family, even though he's not. He has made so many new friends too, I think that is what he takes much for granted with being Ukrainian and being introduced into the family. It's just family. KH: Was he religious at all before? AW: Yes, he was Christian but he didn't go to church every Sunday like he does now. So that was a big aspect about being baptized, which was huge and amazing and hopefully maybe I'll find someone like that someday because it is hard. It is difficult nowadays. But yeah, he is amazing, he is awesome. MH: You said before that even though this community is more open and changing. Is it still considered more conservative than others? AW: Yes. MH: And in what ways, you know what sort of practices are still rigid in structure? AW: Like religious-wise? MH: Yeah, also culture-wise. AW: Definitely church. Going to church on time. Being there every Sunday. Going for holidays and stuff like that. We go for every holiday. Thanksgiving eve. We go to church. It's a big thing. It's huge for our family to be at church on time and to be there every Sunday, every holiday. It's good though, it really is. It brings up a lot of things. It is conservative, it brings up a lot of morality wise and stuff like that. It teaches you a different side of what other people are thinking or whatever. It's really good to be on both sides, because I've seen both sides. I understand both sides. My dad's and my mom's. I think that church really what makes us that way. MH: Do you know when your great-grandparents immigrated, what their immigration experience was like? AW: My great grandparents, I think they also came through Ellis Island, I believe so- either that or they came on a boat, I'm not sure. But their experience was very hard. It was extremely difficult. It was not easy coming over here from nothing, from a different country, it's difficult. Even nowadays for immigrants it's hard. But back then definitely with all of the turmoil, and the war, and that possible terrorists out there and what not. It was difficult for them to come over here to improve their lives, and their name and become an American citizen, but they did it. It was a long journey, but they definitely did it and thank god for that because I wouldn't be here. MH: Do you know what their occupations were? AW: I honestly, my grandfather was a farmer and my great grandmother did nothing. They raised, on the farm that I live on today actually, he had a little shop that my great grandmother, worked at as well. They did that in Binghamton actually. Do you know where St. Michael's is? Right around the corner there used to be a little shop, and that was their little shop. And they literally built it and did the best they could, like a little hardware shop or whatever. At my house there was actually a little gas station. Right in my front yard, it was kind of weird- just one pump. And they also lived off of that. They lived off of selling their meat, their eggs, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's how they raised farmers. My whole family was farmers. My grandmother and all of her brothers and sisters, there was nine of them, so they were all farmers, raised on the farm, and working hard. My grandmother stayed home, my uncles went out to college and stuff like that. My grandmother I don't believe even went to college, she worked jobs her whole life trying to support her family, and support even when she was living with her parents. So, farming that's it. MH: So you said you live in the same house, I think that is so cool. AW: Yeah. It's 140 years old. MH: Oh my gosh! KH: Wow! AW: It's an old house. It's amazing. I mean, you can just feel- sometimes you can feel the presence of my great grandparents which is just amazing. Still the same barn across the street, just a red barn. We don't raise cattle anymore and stuff like that but back then, you know, seeing where they would slaughter them, where to keep them, where the horses were, were the chickens were, we have a chicken coop in my backyard too, so we use that now for storage. But it's really cool living in the same house my grandparents raised and built their name. MH: Are there any sort of specific objects in the house that have a story or some importance? AW: Oh, boy! My-- we actually have my great-grandparents wedding cake still. MH: Wow! AW: So that's in the house, which that is really cool because that thing is like-- I think it is like 100 years old to be honest with you, very old. But it is really cool to have, you know, that presence there. And we've changed a lot of it, we used to have old wallpaper that they had, oh man was wallpaper was just horrible. [Laughter] When they talk about horrible, I'm talking about horrible. So, we repainted that but we've redone the whole house basically. The barn is really what we kept alone, obviously we use it for storage and whatnot. But there's still hay up in the barn, so it's really cool to, you know, feel the hay from when they were alive, you know what I mean? I mean, it connects me to them since I never got to meet them, which I would have loved to have met them. But yeah it is cool, it is cool. MH: Can you explain the significance of the wedding cake and in Ukrainian tradition? AW: It's like a regular wedding cake. We do not cut it, we shellac it, so we keep it forever. It is the meaning of the bond of a marriage because you keep it forever, you shellac and keep it. We have a party to make it with all our cousins. The bridal party, we invite whoever- it is usually women who make it- we invite the women over, we sit there, and we all make the dough. The center of it is paska. Paska is like sweet bread, have you ever had Day of the Dead bread? No? It's like a very sweet bread, very light. Oh, my grandma makes the best paska- again bread is huge. [Laughter] We make that first and then we make little chotchkies which are like little birds, and like flowers and stuff like that and then we shellac them, we all lay them out separate after the shellac and let them dry, and then we take toothpicks and we just stick it on the cake and we add like branches and stuff like that and then we stick them on with ribbon, and we make it whatever design you want. There's so many different designs out there, I mean my grandmother knows all of the designs, I have no idea. But, whatever you want. You can have three stories, my moms' is four stories high, it is like this big [motions with hands], with those flowers coming out everywhere, ribbon, birds, everything, it is really cool. KH: So, you have your mother's wedding cake as well? AW: Yes, my mother's' too. So she, even though my parents are divorced, she keeps it because it is of such significance, it's beautiful, it really is, and it sits up on the corner, next to my grandparents. So it's cool just to see both generations kind of just sitting there. It's really cool. My grandmother has hers at her house, but hers is huge. But it's amazing. KH: Are there any objects, you mentioned the Easter eggs before, can you just explain the significance and the process of making them and what it means? What it signifies? AW: Yeah, making Ukrainian Easter eggs is an Easter tradition, obviously with eggs. Like Americanized eggs, but we just add more designs onto them. It's a process, a very long process, but a very fun process. We take the egg, we put wax on it, we dye it, and then put more wax on it, light it with a flame, then we take the wax off it, and we have an Easter egg. It is really cool to be in that tradition and have that. I introduced it to a lot of my friends, my friend have made Ukrainian Easter eggs before, it's a lot of fun, we have a good time. But we display them over the house. We have two different displays at my house, personally. But at Easter time we put them all over. We have little stands that they stand on, and we just put them in the entrance or in the family room or up in my room, I have a few eggs of mine that I've made and we definitely show people, we kind of show them off because it's part of our tradition and it's part of who we are, and you know it's a good thing to be around. You know I want to introduce it to other people and I have and obviously they made some with me and it's really cool that I can put it on and tell other people who I am and where I am from and have them make it and be part of it. It's a lot of fun, lot of fun. MH: What were some of your friends' reactions, you said before that you loved to show them and tell them all about it, what were their reactions when they did it? AW: Well they were frustrated. They really were. For some of them it was their first times making them, and they sat there and just wanted to throw the egg and just be done with it, which is very understandable. But they went through it and in the end when they saw their end result and they got their egg, I think one of my friends almost cried because he was so excited to make an Easter egg. Their reaction to their finished product and all the frustration they've gone through trying to finish the egg is just priceless, it really is. They love it, they really do and it's really cool to see how much they actually love it. MH: Were there any other traditions that you introduced them too and how did they react to those? AW: Ukrainian dancing. They've seen my Ukrainian dancing. I dance at the festival, so they've come and seen that and are just like "can you teach me some of the steps". They just want to know and be so involved. The language. I've taught them little words and they're like "Oh I know what that is". So I've taught them, you know, little things. Like paska, they have eaten paska. And hren which is like horseradish and beets put together and my grandma makes it-it's the best- we put it on paska and they eat it and they love it. They love Ukrainian food. We actually pierogies, homemade ones and they loved doing that. Halupki, pigs wrapped in a blanket, they loved doing that too. So food, a lot of food, dancing, language, and stuff like that we've introduced to them. KH: So you seem to talk a lot about Ukrainian foods-- AW: Uh, yes-- KH: -- do you have any favorites? AW: Oh boy! What is my favorite? Kielbasa and kraut. I love kielbasa and kraut. We get our kielbasa from New York City, called Baczynsky's, from this place called Baczynsky's. They have the best meat, it's so out of this world, it's amazing. All Ukrainians work there, so we go there and all talk in Ukrainian. It's really cool to have that, you know, little shop in the corner. It brings me back to wondering what my great grandparents would be like because that's kind of what they did. So, it is really cool, and they knew my great grandparents, I mean the owner, we knew them for many years. So, it is really cool to see. I love pierogies [pronounces in Ukrainian] with onions [more Ukrainian], it is so good. I like it all to be honest with you. Obviously, I was raised food is food, you have to eat, and you eat it all or else it is rude. You have to literally eat everything on your plate and everything at the table. [Laughter] So you would have third or fourth helpings because my grandmother just says, "you're not done, you're still hungry", she just puts it on your plate and says, "you're eating it". That's what you got to do. You got to do what you got to do, right? But food is huge, huge in the community. I love Ukrainian food, love it. It's better than, honestly, most Americanized food, because it's homemade, everything is homemade, nothing's store bought other than like Kraut and stuff like that. But my grandparents would- another story- my grandmother would come home; my great grandmother would be sitting there making pierogis all day long. She had to feed like nine boys. MH: Oh, my goodness! AW: Yeah! And they ate a lot. So she just sat there all day long just making pierogies all by herself. Homemade. Just a ton of them every day, that's all they'd eat. It's also just dough and potatoes. So, they'd home grow the potatoes and they had the dough and it was just easy. And they weren't rich, they were very poor so that was just the cheapest and easiest way for them to eat, so it's cool. And knowing how to make them is just really cool. MH: I find it interesting, we interviewed a gentleman of Russian descent and he said that food is not a big deal in Russia-- AW: Really? MH: --so do you know of any other difference between Ukraine and Russia? AW: I'm not an expert on Russian culture. I'm really not. I do know that we share a lot of like the same- pysanky, we both do I believe. And I believe we both make paska, I believe. And Ukrainian dance is another thing. Ukrainian dance is huge, like we both dance very similarly, knowing other Russian groups. We've danced with them, we dance at the same concerts as them and stuff like that. We connect, and we talk, but they do dance very similarly to us which is another thing that's big. That's pretty much it that I know. Our languages are pretty similar too, that's why it is becoming Ukrainian-Russian kind of thing in more Eastern Ukraine right now. But other than that I don't know. MH: But here in the community, you do mix? You do have some interaction with Russian groups? AW: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially in dancing mostly. We just go to the same festivals and the same kind of concerts and stuff like that. Someone will ask us to dance and sometimes they have Russian dancing, sometimes Ukrainian dancing, and you know, sitting back and comparing Russian to our kind of dance is kind of dance is very similar, it really is. We have a lot of the same steps, but it is also very different with costumes and stuff like that. We have different costumes, which is cool to see. Other than that and the community, that huge in comparison. MH: What is the attitude towards what's going on in Russia and Ukraine now? AW: It's hard, it really is. I mean, it's hard to see. We, as Ukrainians here in the community we understand that what's going on is not every Russians fault, it really isn't. So us reaching out to other Russians is not the problem. It's just when they make it prominent that they want our country is when we have the problem. You understand? So, we, here in the community, a lot of Russians here really don't want this turmoil that is going on in Ukraine. They really don't. And so we connect with them and we, we talk about it and they're very supportive of us and, you know, some of them understand and want Ukraine to be a part of their country which is also understandable because we became independent, we were part of Russia first, but as we became independent, we want to stay independent. So that's why I think, for me, being Ukrainian is so strong. Like I'm so proud to be Ukrainian, I'm proud to say that I am a Ukrainian, whether we become part of Russia or not, I will always say I'm Ukrainian. You know? So, I think sometimes it brings tension but most of the time we just talk about it and we just things out, which is important. It really is. KH: So did your strong- oh what's the word I'm looking for -- your strong inheritance of Ukrainian values, did that come with how you were raised? AW: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. If I was not raised how I was raised I'd never have these values really. I was raised Ukrainian, my first language is Ukrainian. So Ukraine was always part of my life. I went to Ukrainian school, Ukrainian camp. So, it really was-- it really is a huge part of my life which is also why differentiates me from my American friends because it is just so-- it just consumes my whole life. It really does, and I am so proud, so proud to be Ukrainian. I mean, I don't know if this important but I've a tattoo of the Tryzub on my ribs to signify that I, no matter-- who try to take my heritage away from me, no matter who try to take my country away from me, I always have that and it is always gonna be mine permanently. So, I am very outspoken to be Ukrainian even though people sometimes get annoyed with it. I understand but like in fourth grade I was in the paper for being such a strong heritage from the beginning. It was just so strong. KH: Do you plan to stay in the Binghamton community here? AW: That's a good question. [Laughter] I would- I understand why I would like to because I have such a community here being Ukrainian and having the strong community I do here, but wanting to become a lawyer and what not, it's kind of more maybe I might travel. I do know many other Ukrainian communities, like Washington D.C., I know a Ukrainian community down there that I'm close to, I have friends down there. Wherever I go I will find a Ukrainian community, I will find a Ukrainian church. I mean this will always be my church. I want to get married in this church, no matter where I live. This is just, my church. But, wherever I go, I will go and try to go to a Ukrainian community, and join another Ukrainian community because I know we are all open and we all just want to be family. So, I probably will move, even though I know it's going to be difficult, but I will always carry that with me. MH: Is your family and community supportive of the fact that you know you might have to leave? AW: Yeah. My family is pretty- they, they understand. They know that I want to go on and travel and live my life and, you know, become successful and become who I am. And they know that I will carry on my traditions wherever I go. I mean if I marry and American, sorry, you're going to become Ukrainian. Like that's just how it is. You know what I mean? They are very supportive, they really are. They know that I have valued this my whole life and I will always value this. So it's just how it's going to be. MH: I probably already know the answer to this, but do you plan on raising your children and your family similarly to how you were raised? AW: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. Definitely. They will be raised, I will try to teach them as much Ukrainian as I know. But tradition wise and church wise they will be raised Catholic, they will be raised with always going to church on holidays, always celebrating Christmas. Christmas I will always come back here, for Christmas no matter where I live, no matter how big my family is. My grandma will always have Christmas, as long as she's living, at her house. And if she dies and they stop tradition, I'll start it up in my house, you know? So, it will always carry with me, through my kids, through my spouse, whatever. I'm very headstrong on this. MH: You just talked a lot about religion, how has religion influenced you in, you know, morality or just making life choices? AW: Very greatly. I have been raised Catholic literally since birth. So I portray that even in my friends' life. I'm not the type to try and convert them, but I am the type that says "I have to go to church, I'm going to church". You know, I have to wake up on Sunday at 8 o'clock in the morning, I'm going to do it, I have to go. So church and religion is very important in my life. I'm the more tame of my friends. I do do some "crazy" [air quotes] stuff, but religion is always in the back of my mind, morality is always there with my friends. I even try and like, not convert them, but try and teach them some ways. My friends have come to church with me and I've, you know, introduced them to my heritage and my religion and who I am. And it's part of who I am, I'm not going to hide it from the world, you know what I mean? So religion is a huge part of my life as well. MH: So how does Russian Orthodox differ from--? AW: Ukrainian Catholic? MH: Yeah. AW: Russian Orthodox Church, they have different, like, ways to baptize, different ways to do other things. They're kind of the same thing but they just do things differently than we do. So in desperation if we can't find a Ukrainian Catholic church if we go out of town we go to a Russian Orthodox because they're pretty much the same thing, they just do things differently. So it's comparable but it also has some differences to it. MH: It sounds like the communities is accepting of them even though you're different. So, there isn't any sort of [motions with hands to suggest conflict]--? AW: No, no, no. Not that I know of at least. I don't know. Not that I know of. We, as I said, we go to Russian Orthodox when we're out of town and at the beach or something like that. We still go to church on vacations, that's another thing, when we're out of town. So, yeah. KH: So what's your favorite part of the Ukrainian Community in Binghamton? AW: Oh, how big it actually is. Meeting other Ukrainians that are a part of the community that I didn't even know about. You know, I mean, I have a pretty big family here and I have pretty big connections, like outwards, even in Binghamton that don't go to this church and what not. But knowing other people that are a part of the community that I didn't know of beforehand is really cool. It's really cool to meet other people and bring them in and stuff like that. MH: You said you knew of a Ukrainian community in Washington D.C., how did you meet them? AW: SUM, up in my Ukrainian camp, literally, all across the country they come and you know it's cool to see other people from like, California, even Texas, I don't know- crazy. Philadelphia- huge, huge, Ukrainian community in Philadelphia. Washington D.C. I was in a debutant, as well. It's part of the tradition. And they had one down in D.C. and I know a lot of friends, my friends, who go down to D.C. and go to that debutant too, which is a very Ukrainian tradition. So that's how I know other Ukrainian communities and they're all over the world. MH: And how does Binghamton differ from these other communities or does it? AW: We--sometimes they go to other churches and we celebrate other religions and stuff like that but other than that we're really quite similar and that's why I've made so many friends because we have so many similarities. One of my kind of cousins, she's married, well not married, she's adopted into the family, from Ukraine actually. There's two of them, brother and sister, they are not brother and sister by blood, but by adoption and their story is just- man what they went through to come over here. Do you want me to tell you a little bit about it? MH: If you're comfortable. AW: Yeah, that's fine. My- I consider them my family- my cousins. They're very close to me, I consider them my siblings, you know, my sister and my brother. Their names are Tereza and Mykola. Tereza was very young when she was adopted, I believe she was three? Two or three? But Mykola was more six? Seven? Eight? Something around there. So he remembers a lot more. When they, when my cousins went over there to adopt them, they saw that he had scratches, he had bruises, he was beaten. They were both beaten over there in the adoption homes. So they saw both of them, and they saw them just curled up together. They were actually together, they meet each other and they said we just can't separate them. How can we separate them? We are taking them both, because they only wanted one. So they said how we can separate these two kids who connected a bond trying to protect each other. He did everything for her. She was behind him, he was in front and they were just cuddling. They were just holding on to each other, basically for dear life, and he had just so many bruises and so many- you know they were verbally, verbally- it was ridiculous what they would say to them. So they adopted them and they came over here, and Mykola, he does have a lot of problems now because he does remember a lot of it and he used to have nightmares and he's on a lot of medications and stuff like that, but he has actually become a personal trainer. He's very successful. She is going off to become a doctor. So they're very successful. They're normal, very normal. He's the one who more has problems, per se. He's had a lot of, a lot of life issues, but they've solved it and you know, they just have to go with it. You can't- you just have to- you know, you can't push them away. They both are very close to me, they're also from SUM, I know them from. They're from Yonkers. Yonkers is where their SUM group meets. But they're from Port River. So they live far away, but we still keep in contact. They are both amazing, amazing people. What they came from, how they, I mean, my cousins they really are amazing for saving them and taking them both in and with all the hardship they knew that was coming with both of them is amazing. They, they're just, it's incredible, it really is. MH: Wow! That's amazing. AW: Like the stories you hear of, you know, of terrible adoption horror stories. It really is true and you know, they're living proof of it but they're so successful. They're going off and I mean he's had problems his whole life, but look at him, he's a personal trainer. I'm so happy for them. They're very Ukrainian as well, both of them are like me. They're very outspoken about it, very open people, which is amazing too because you'd think they'd be closed off from the world, they're not. They're very open, very--want to bring everyone in and just talk to them about it, you know what I mean? So, which is amazing for them and it's- I don't- I don't even know half the stuff they both went through over there, but to see them now is just truly, truly amazing. MH: So even though they had, you know, such a hard experience there, they're still proud to be Ukrainian? AW: Oh yeah. MH: Do you think that comes more from your family and you know, how-- AW: How they were raised? --They were raised? Yeah, definitely. I mean, they understood just because they were in a bad situation and a bad home, I mean adoption companies and adoption homes over there and you know, foster homes over there are very different from them over here, even to this day. They're very poor countries so they, they really don't have a lot. So, but, they just were in bad home. I mean even over here in America that happens, they're just in a bad home and there was a lot more bad homes back then when they were first born then there are now in Ukraine, but they- amazing that they were saved and they're over here now and they, they understand the difference of a bad home and Ukraine. They don't- they don't connect the two. So they, which is awesome because that means they can celebrate that and I wouldn't be as close, I don't think that I could be as close to them, you know? They'd be more cut off, just more conservative about their life, but they're very very proud to be Ukrainian, just as I am. MH: When your cousins were looking to adopt, did they specifically choose Ukrainian because of their own history? AW: Yes. Yes. And they understood what was going on in Ukraine with adoption companies over there. So they understood what, um, they could possibly go through, adopting from Ukraine back then. But they, they did it and I'm so happy they did and they're happy they did. They are the two-honestly it's crazy- they look like their parents. It's so weird. They all look together and it's like "are you sure you're not born here, like are you sure you're not born from them?" But they're not and they look like each other, even though they're not. So how they grew up together, I think it was just a match made in heaven to be honest with you. It was perfect. Yeah. MH: Wow, that's amazing. AW: It is amazing, it's really cool. MH: Going back to the Ukrainian communities around the country, and you said you could go to D.C., do you think most communities would be open-- AW: Yeah. MH: Are they all very open? AW: I believe so, I can't tell you one hundred percent because I'm not- I don't- I've gone to other communities but I've never really associated that much into the communities. But if I went to other Ukrainian communities across the country I'd probably know someone, so I'd probably be brought in very quickly. But other than that they're very open, just like us, they're very open to everyone and even in SUM sometimes we have Americans that are there that just want to know the culture, you know? Just want to get involved and we accept them, they're there and we just deal with it, you know what I mean? It's cool. It's cool. KH: So going back to your cousins, what part of Ukraine did they live in before they were adopted? Or do you not know? AW: More middle. Middle East. From there, I believe. MH: Do you know how location in Ukrainian influences cultural identity? AW: Oh yes. Eastern Ukraine is more Russianized. Western Ukraine is more Polandized and then the middle of Ukraine is kind of both. So, since Russia is, you know, such a big influence, that's where Russianized Ukrainian comes from. Since Poland is kind of an influence where a lot of people fled from Ukraine to Poland, there, Polish is also Ukraine, Polish-Ukraine is also a thing too. And middle Ukraine is kind of both. It's more Eastern, more Russianized, that I know of. But, Ukrainian, the old old regime Ukrainian language still is huge in Ukraine. It's just not- it's just kind of going away since everything's becoming new with, you know, bringing up with Russia and Poland and stuff like that. So, that's pretty much the differences of how Ukraine can be and that's why it's hard to understand other people because sometimes they're speaking Polish-Ukrainian, sometimes they're speaking Russian-Ukrainian. You don't know, so that's pretty much the difference. MH: What is- where does the majority of the community members here in Binghamton hail from, Western or Eastern? AW: Western. Yes, Western. MH: So, what sort of practices distinguish them from Eastern? AW: It's not really practices, it's just the language. So they language is really what differences everyone from where they come from. I mean, like we said before hutsul, pysanky Ukrainian eggs, even there's hutsul dances, there's a lot of very- sickle dance is more from Western Ukraine, hutsul dance is more from Eastern. So there's different kinds of dances, songs, writings and stories from different parts of the country, kind of like our country, you know very- it's different, you know, wherever you go. So I think that's what--yeah. MH: Do you know when this community was sort of established, around what period and what brought them to Binghamton? AW: Oh boy, it was early nineteen hundreds. And they came to Binghamton--I think because so many people from Ukrainian descent were here so, um, they just kind of saw the potential and just made the community and built the church, and the church was in a different part of Johnson City, I believe. I forget what the old church is, but there was an old church that was made first and that's what-it was kind of- it was small. So they decided we needed a bigger church. We need- we have more people coming in, coming from Ukraine and more immigrants and stuff like that, so we built this church and that was a little later on, I think it was 40 years after the first church was built, I believe so, don't quote me on that, I'm not sure. But then we built the new church and that's when all these people who are now American born, they're bigger families and obviously my grandparents because they had a farm, they had a huge family and then other people in this church also had nine, ten kids, so that's why we built this church. MH: What sort of differences do you see between the older generation here and the younger, Americanized, American-born kids? AW: Obviously because we were born with such technology and such knowledge and what we were open too and what they weren't. They weren't born with all of the technology we have so that's a huge part, I mean we're all on our phones and they're like "why are you always on your phone?" you know. Kind of the normal older people kind of questions and stuff like that, but how they- how they tell their stories is different than us. I mean, they have such heart into how they talk even, they have such pain too and how they talk about certain things and sometimes you shut up and just listen, you know? They definitely--just how the media has been brought up, we brought up around the media, how they're brought up around the media too, which is a huge impact in how we are both raised and how we both communicate to each other because we were brought up with the openness of Google, you know, the news and whatnot like that, and they had no idea half the time. I mean my grandparents didn't have a TV, they had a radio. So that was it, that's all they listened to. So that's just the technology and media difference really is what is kind of hard about communicating with them but they're pretty- they understand and work with it, so it's becoming easier to be honest. MH: Is there anything you could learn from them? Or what you'd be interested in learning? AW: Oh I have learned a lot from my grandmother. She is an amazing amazing woman and I learned how to cook from her, I've learned how to write in Ukrainian from her, how to speak. I mean she was my babysitter so she's the one who really put all her traditions and all her knowledge into my brother and I. I have a little brothers turning sixteen and we both were raised Ukrainian, raised one hundred percent by mostly, kind of her. My parents both were at work so she had us all day long, so she kind of almost raised us in a sense. So her impact on how to cook, clean, how to act and stuff like that really is a big- what has made us who we are today. Another thing about Ukrainian is-it's not sexist but- the women stayed home and they cleaned and they cooked and they took care of the kids because that's what they had to do. The men went out and worked and were farmers and stuff like that, that's how she was raised. So that- she tried to put that in my brother and I's kind of brain, but not in going off to college. Going off to college was for- she wanted all of us to go to college. She wanted her kids to go to college that was her biggest thing, was just go to college, I don't care what you go for just do it. And so in that sense the women got to kind of do their own thing and become their own person, but it's still the expectation that they're going to stay home and cook and clean all that kind of stuff after their job and stuff like that. I am more of the person of I'm not going to stay home cook and clean. I'm going to obviously become a lawyer. So I'm going to have a lot of late nights and you know studying and stuff like that so I am more- I do understand her ways and I respect her ways, which I actually do take into some consideration in my life. When I have kids I want to stay home with them their first couple of years until they go to school and then obviously put them in daycare or whatever I need to do, or until whenever I come home or whatever, and even if I don't have to work and I marry someone "rich" [air quotes] then I'll stay home with the kids, you know? So--having her opinion in that way kind of, I respect it a lot and I take it in my life, you know, it's good to be around your kids and I understand it but also at the same time I want to become my own person and I want to become independent and successful first. So yeah. MH: Is this sort of the typical thinking still among the Ukrainian community here? AW: Yes. The older community, yes. It's how they were raised and that's how they think everyone else should be raised. And it's difficult for them to see all these, like, teen pregnancies and see all these young couples getting married. I mean, she was young, but like, getting married for no reason and getting just- kind of- throwing their life away kind of thing. It's hard for them to see and my grandma sometimes doesn't understand it as much, but she tries to- that's why I think she tries to so much teach us how to- how it should be and stuff like that. But I- I am my own person and I understand both ways and so I think that's why the community is so- that's how the older community is. MH: You mentioned you have a brother. Is he as passionate about Ukraine as you are? AW: Not as much to be honest with you. Really to be honest, he's really not as passionate. He's passionate though he just doesn't speak it as much, but he does understand it. He does, I mean, he portrays to his friends. His friends come and make pysanky too. So he, I mean it's not like he holds it off from the world but he's definitely open about it and he wants to tell people about it, he's just not as--into it as I am. So, I'm the one who's just Ukrainian all the way. He the one who "if I marry someone English, Ukrainian, whatever I'll decide that later on", you know that kind of thing. Yeah he'll bring them too obviously to Ukrainian traditions and stuff like that but he's more of an "I'll just go with the flow whatever, I mean, they're English, I'm Ukrainian, okay." That kind of thing. I'm more, "yeah you're going to be Ukrainian and we're raising my kids Ukrainian whatever". He's more just laid back about it. MH: I just wanted to get this straight for the record, so you, your first language was Ukrainian? AW: Yes. MH: And is it still spoken in your house? AW: Yes. MH: Can you read it and write it? AW: I can speak it, I can read somewhat, I can write somewhat. I can definitely write my name, I can write the date and months and stuff like that. I'm not fluent in reading, writing, or speaking it. I used to be, obviously. My first language was Ukrainian, I lost it after going to school. My counselor told my parents "You need to teach them English, not Ukrainian, because they're struggling". I wish my counselor didn't do that, because I would love to be more fluent in it, I really would. I've always thought about going in college and taking a course and becoming more fluent or something like that because it's really important to me. But yeah, speaking, reading, writing, is kind of difficult, but I make do and I can communicate with other Ukrainians, yeah. MH: Was is hard for you when you were small, having to learn English or, you know, was there a language barrier between you and the other kids? AW: I really don't remember, but I do know that it was, I believe it was difficult. There was a little bit of a language barrier, I was kind of slow learning English. English was always my hard- back in elementary school it was always hard for me. And even in middle school it was difficult for me. English was my worst subject. So learning English was always- I never understood- I never really understood it. Now I do, obviously. But I never really understood how the language works and stuff like that back then. So teachers would be frustrated with me, they'd say "oh you're never going to get very far with English" or "you're not going to do very good", "your essays are always going to be horrible" and stuff like that. So I mean they worked with it, but they became frustrated with me because I just didn't understand it and they didn't know why. I said "my language is Ukrainian" like "this is where I come from", like English is second to me so learning all the -oh man it was so difficult learning all the little words and what they mean and different-- MH: -- prepositions -- AW: Yes, oh my gosh, don't even get me started. It's still confusing to me, so it's- it was difficult, it was, but I made do and I mean obviously I wish Ukrainian was more promoted in my house. I mean my dad didn't speak Ukrainian, he kind of does now, he knows somewhat but he really didn't speak it so that was another thing. My mom, my grandma was really the one to enforce it. I wish they pushed it more because I would have made do but it's okay, it worked out, obviously it worked out fine. MH: You mentioned you went to Ukrainian school? AW: Uh-huh. MH: Can you explain what that was? AW: Yeah it was here, through my church-- MH: OK, so like a Sunday school? AW: Yeah, kind of like that, yeah- it was on Saturdays and it was in the morning and it was also corresponding with SUM [also known as CYM] and for SUM we have to do- there was different camps throughout the summer, so one week was dance camp, one week was like history camp. I mostly went to the all-around camp where we did kind of everything. So we had to recite poems and stuff like that in Ukrainian, so that was part of Ukrainian school was preparing ourselves for something called "zlet" up there, which is something kind of like- it was Memorial Day weekend so we all did like sports and we all recited poems and did all these things and we got points and we got medals at the end and trophies too, that was also really fun, being brought up like that. But speaking it was part of that, so I guess that Ukrainian school was preparing for SUM, which is Ukrainian camp, and speaking it. So that was kind of- it was all in one. MH: Where was SUM located? AW: Ellenville, New York. Which is about two hours away from here, so not that far away. It's a lot of fun. I'm going there obviously Memorial Day weekend. I don't participate anymore because I'm too old, but I just go to see all my friends and we all just hang out and just have the weekend there, we just go to vatra, which are bonfires, and we go to the dances and it's just a lot of fun, we just chill and hang out. Now it's cool because I don't have to do anything. I'd don't have to you know, learn all these poems, which was so stressful back then, but it was worth it, it was a lot of fun. I mean, it helped make me who I am today, going to Ukraine camp and having that diverse friend connection is really cool. Yeah. MH: Just going back to your father's family, I find this so interesting. We've talked about your mother's family and, you know, her Ukrainian heritage, but do you know anything about your Father's English? AW: He's American-born, his whole family was born here. He, I believe he said something about being of Indian descent, I'm not sure, one time he said that it might be possible. They- we're not as close to them. He really made family here, so. I mean we celebrate birthdays and stuff like that with them, I mean when my parents were married they celebrated a lot more with us, like Thanksgiving we celebrated with them, it was a big family thing. And, you know, first holy communions or like birthdays, they'd come, still, to my birthday parties, or whatever. Birthday parties are another huge thing. We have a party for every birthday, it's ridiculous. But, they--they're Christian so they still go to church and stuff like that so we have that kind of connection and that kind of, we can compare like that, but other than that we don't really see them as much so they just kind of do their own thing, we just kind of do our own thing. I mean, bringing them into the family through my mom and them getting married, they obviously took part of some of the Ukrainian traditions because obviously we are very contagious, [laughter] so we call on other people and they take part in it, and they miss it, they really do. But it was cool seeing how they came from just being English and not knowing any other culture and coming and marrying into this family and you know they even took some Ukrainian with them. They have pysanky around their house and things like that. My brother, not my brother, my father has a brother and a sister, and they're closer to the sister than he is to his brother and his sister has Ukrainian pysanky and embroideries from my mom's wedding and stuff like that that they have taken with them and display in their house, which is cool because we are not very close to them, but it's cool. MH: So how does it feel seeing, I like the word you used, "contagious", you know, seeing your Ukrainian history spread? And are you excited about that? AW: Oh yeah, it gets me so excited. I love talking about how I'm Ukrainian and I just like to portray onto others who I am and where I come from and how Ukraine is. I mean, you hear a little about Ukraine on the news, about being Russia trying to take over or whatever, I mean, some people have this certain opinion that- we are a poor country. I mean we're a pretty big country, but our population is pretty small. So, I like to introduce to other people, "Hey, I'm Ukrainian, you want to learn more?", "Obviously, yeah let's go", you know what I mean? So, I love to talk about, like, who I am and where I come from and really introduce the Ukrainian tradition to others because I think it's important. I want to hear about other people too. I love to hear about who other people have become and what other cultures are compared to mine, like Polish, they're different but they're similar. It's really cool to compare and meet other people and stuff like that. So I do the same and I want to know other people's, bring it on, like I want to compare I want to switch notes and stuff like that, but I definitely- it's so much fun talking about my heritage to others because we're so different. We really are, but we are also so much the same. It's cool. It's a lot of fun. MH: Just to conclude our interview, we have a few sort of general questions. AW: Yeah. MH: What is your favorite part about being Ukrainian? AW: My favorite part? Boy, that's a good question. I love talking about Ukrainian heritage and I love celebrating it. I love being with family and just having all of the traditions and really still practicing them. Because I know a lot of other people don't really practice their traditions. We practice every single one. We love our traditions. So traditions basically is my favorite part of being Ukrainian and celebrating them with family. MH: Do you have a favorite tradition? AW: Christmas. MH: Christmas? AW: Christmas. Because we just bring every family member from all across the country, even- we have family in Australia now, they come back-- MH: Wow! AW: Yeah! So it's really cool. I remember when she went away she spoke English and she had this thick New York accent, she went over there now she has an Australian accent. I'm like "wait, what's this, hold on, backup, reverse, wait, what?" [Laughter] So it's really cool to have them come over here, and she's actually getting married in June? July? Which is really exciting because we're going to have people from Canada, Australia, and America-- MH: Oh my gosh! AW: So yeah, it's going to be a big wedding. Seven hundred people. Crazy. Yeah, weddings are another thing that's a lot- Actually weddings is another thing that I love about being Ukrainian because the tradition of a wedding is totally different. The ceremony is about an hour and a half, two hours to get married, and then we basically party all night and party all day. So before, let me explain the wedding, so before you go to the mother's house, the bride's mother's house and you get the blessing of the godparents and they put a rushnyk, which is an embroidered cloth over your head and they pray with you and they wish you the best. And the groom is- well I don't know where the groom is honestly. But this is all at the bride's parent's house, bride's mother's house, and then they go to the church and they get married. The service is so beautiful. It's so long but so worth it, so beautiful. And they- after they get married we go to the reception and the reception lasts until we are done dancing to be honest and dancing is just all night long and then the next day we go to the parents' house and we have another party to celebrate their marriage and we just- we just chill and take the day to actually kind of regroup each other but we invite the whole family, so it's another hundred, hundred-fifty people over at the house. Every holiday, there is at least a hundred people that we celebrate with. So a wedding is another thing that I love. I love going to Ukrainian weddings because it's just so different than, like, an American wedding. You get married in like ten minutes and then you say your vows in like ten minutes and you're married and you go to the reception, you know what I mean? It is totally- there is so much more. And the reception, we do dances, certain dances with the mother and stuff like Ukrainianized dances and stuff like that that we partake in the wedding as well. Which is cool to introduce to Americans, they've never been to a Ukrainian wedding, they don't know what they're in for. I'm telling them, "You don't know what you're in for if you go to a Ukrainian wedding because there's a lot more to it than you think". So it's really cool, yeah. MH: You mentioned you now have family in, or at weddings you'll have Ukrainians from Australia, Canada and the U.S., do you know how their communities differ from communities in the U.S.? AW: Canada, I know more about in Canada than I do about Australia. Australia, she moved there like five, six years ago so I've never been there. Obviously I'd love to go there, and I will go there, because that's awesome. But I think the communities are pretty much the same in Canada and they are here, I think they do a little different tradition wise, different like, things, and stuff like that. It depends on their religion as well, that's another huge part of it. But, yeah they definitely- it's cool to see how others, like, their weddings might be a little different, so when they come to our wedding we're going to see how they react to certain things with the reception and stuff like that, but I think it's pretty much the same and stuff. MH: What's one thing you want everyone to know about Ukraine and being Ukrainian? AW: Oh, how, how spiritual we are. How open we are. How generous and kind and sweet we are. I want people to know that we are open to everyone and we just want to tell you about our culture. We just want everyone to know that we're Ukrainian and we're proud of it and we're not stubborn and hard and closed off as some people might think Ukrainians are. I just want people to know that we are very open and we want- we just want to tell you about our culture and just, open it up and have you come in and celebrate with us, as well as us celebrating with you. MH: Okay, is there anything else you'd like to add or want us to know? AW: I think that pretty much covered everything that I at least know as being Ukrainian. Other than food, lot of food, dancing, the language-- Obviously there are so many other stories that are out there of Ukrainians and stuff like that. Definitely being American-born but being raised Ukrainian has been a blessing and really, I'm so proud to be Ukrainian even though I am American. It's just amazing. It's an amazing feeling to have this background, it really is. MH: Do you identify more with Ukrainian or American? AW: Hmm. I- depends on what--certain things. I identify with being more Ukrainian, but then again I am very proud to be an American. I really am. I hold proud. I, honestly, I might become a politician one day, you never know, maybe President, you never know. Hey, why not? You go big or go home right? [Laughter] So, but being Ukrainian is just so strong for me even though I do love being an American. I really do. I celebrate everything, Fourth of July, and everything like that. I love it. It's an amazing feeling as well to have both cultures and really celebrate both. I mean it becomes extremely busy, but it's okay and it's a lot of fun having both backgrounds. MH: Kevin do you have any other questions? KH: Nope. MH: I think that just about covers it. Thank you so much. AW: Thank you. MH: That was amazing. AW: Good. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrianna Watson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Watson, Adrianna ; Hage, McKenna ; Hiller, Kevin Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Adrianna Watson is a college student majoring in Law and is a second generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in Johnson City. She lives in the Southern Tier of New York with her large, extended family. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adrianna Watson.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 71:36 Subject The topic of the resource Watson, Adrianna. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Ukrainian folk dancing; Ukrainian cooking; Summer camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/26752b39606ee1ffd92c2d8333d03c9e.m4a 09154d91ec02ab8d659dea8b2e8aa8d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Sanyshyn Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kevin DeLuca and Kayla Jermansky Date of Interview 6 April 2016 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:19 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Biographical Text David Sanyshyn is a retired engineer and is a third generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in the Binghamton area. He is a Vietnam War veteran, having served two terms in the Navy, and is active in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He met his wife, a second generation Ukrainian, in the United States. They have 3 children together and 4 grandchildren, and reside in Binghamton. Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Sanyshyn, David. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Church; Ukrainian--music; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DavidSanyshyn.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Ukrainians; Immigrants; Catholics, Ukrainian; Veterans; Ukrainian diaspora; Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Ethnicity ; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: David Sanyshyn Interviewed by: Kevin DeLuca and Kayla Jermansky Transcriber: Kevin DeLuca and Kayla Jermansky Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Kevin DeLuca: Hello, my name is Kevin DeLuca, and this is Kayla Jermansky, and we are here today at Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church on April 6th to interview David Sanyshyn. David Sanyshyn is a 3rd generation Ukrainian immigrant. He has agreed to speak to us about his personal experiences growing up as a Ukrainian, and we are interviewing him in order to learn more his personal experiences and cultural identity. We will also be discussing his childhood, what he considers to be his national identity, what influenced his grandparents to come to America, as well as any other insight he chooses to share with us. Kayla Jermansky: So, you said you were born here in Binghamton. Specifically, you were born in this community? David Sanyshyn: Yes, I grew up two houses down from the church. KD: Is everyone in this community a Ukrainian immigrant? DS: When I was born it wasn't unusual to hear Polish, Slovak, Russian or Ukrainian anywhere in the community. There was a lot of households that actually spoke all of them. KJ: Do you still hear those languages today? DS: Not really, most of the immigration has moved out along with the jobs. KJ: Is there a reason you chose to stay instead of leaving? DS: I like the area and it's just a beautiful place to live. KD: What do you like most about it? DS: The scenery and the change of seasons. Also, the mountains. My grandparents came from a place very similar to this in geography. KD: Do you know why your grandparents came here? DS: Jobs. My mother's side came to work in Syracuse and actually went back to Ukraine which was uncommon at the time. Then he came here with the intent of working. This was around 1910 and she saw that changes in the political atmosphere was getting pretty bad. So, she wrote him a letter and said if you can work there and make enough money to live then maybe there is a better place to live. Then he sent her money to have her transported here. My other grandparents came during WW1 and settled in New Jersey. KJ: For more background info, can you tell us when you were born? DS: 1950. KD: What do you do for a living? DS: Right now, I'm a retired software engineer. KJ: What is your educational background? DS: I have a 2-year degree that I got after I got out of the service. KJ: How old were you when you joined the Navy? DS: 18. KD: What influenced you to serve in the Navy? DS: The draft. The war was going on; if I didn't join the Navy I would've been drafted in the Army. KD: Can you tell us a little more about your experience in the Navy? DS: I made 2 tours in Vietnam and learned electronics. I saw a lot of different sights, a lot of different places: Guam, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Japan. KJ: So, you are very well traveled. DS: Yes, well they say join the Navy, see the world. It was interesting to see all of the different cultures. KJ: How long did you serve? DS: 4 years. KD: Do you have any children? DS: Yes. KD: How many? DS: 3 children and 4 grandchildren. KJ: Did you meet your wife here? DS: No, she's from Utica. KD: Is she also Ukrainian? DS: Yes, she's also Ukrainian. She is 2nd generation, her parents came after WW2. KD: When did you start coming to this church? DS: Right from birth. I was baptized here. Actually, before this church was here, my grandmother used to have a little Chapel in her house and a Brazilian priest used to come around once in a while and have masses. KJ: How religious would you say you are? DS: Pretty religious. KD: Would you say this church helped you acclimate to Binghamton? DS: Yes, because we always had a very close tie to the Church and being Ukrainian we always had a close tie to the traditions also. We still carry out all of the traditions. I still host Christmas Eve at our house and we've had as many as 52 at a sit-down dinner for Christmas Eve. KD: How many brothers and sisters do you have? DS: I have 5 sisters and 2 brothers. KJ: How was that growing up with so many kids around? DS: There was always a lot of people around, so it was always good. Plus, both of my parents came from big families. There were 9 or 10 kids in both of my grandparents' houses so there were always a lot of festivities, a lot of music and a lot of get together. KD: Do you think having a big family is a Ukrainian tradition? DS: It was a tradition because back then you wanted more hands to work the fields. At the turn of the century that was how you lived; as soon as spring hit you were working from sun up until sundown. KD: What kinds of games did you play as a child? DS: You know, just the regular kickball or baseball or basketball. Some type of ball. KJ: Are there any specific Ukrainian games that your parents brought over? DS: Not really, my parents weren't big game players. There was always a lot of work to do with the farm. KJ: What was it like growing up with your parents, were they strict? DS: I wouldn't say they were strict. They helped instill important values. They always practiced what they preached. KD: How do you think your experience would be different if you grew up in Ukraine instead of here? DS: It definitely would have been more of an agricultural society. There would also be a lot of different cultures. KJ: We have learned that Ukraine is known as a "melting pot". DS: Yes, my mother's side of the family, I believe, are actually Ukrainians living in Poland. It actually used to be part of Ukraine at one point. KD: Did your grandparents always identify as Ukrainian? DS: Yes. KD: What would you identify yourself as now? DS: Ukrainian American. KJ: Have you ever visited Ukraine? DS: No. KD: Did you ever plan to? DS: I think it would be interesting just to see it. Of course, now you can just look on the internet. KD: Is there a reason that you didn't? DS: Well, for one thing, the border was closed for a long time. It wasn't until 1992 that they opened it up. We did have some visitors, though. My wife's cousin came from Ukraine. KJ: Was it difficult for your grandparents to find work here? DS: No, I don't think so. My mother's father worked here on the railroad and after he moved here the second time he was working in EJ. I don't know if you've ever heard the term "which way EJ". Both: No. DS: That was because Endicott Johnson employed people and he needed people to work in the shoe factory. So, that was the saying for immigrants once they got off the boat, they'd say "which way EJ". The idea was they were going to come here to work in this area; that's how a lot of people got settled here. KJ: How would you say your grandparents' experience was first coming here? DS: It was difficult but that's why they hung in different communities. My grandfather actually lived up on a hill here and he used to grow vegetables. They bought some farms up here and started farming, which is what they did best. They raised their kids and they all went off and did things. KD: Do you have any remaining family members still in Ukraine? DS: I'm not sure. From what I understand my grandfather was from a family of 16 and we haven't kept up with all of them. KD: Has your family brought over any Ukrainian traditions that you still practice today? DS: Oh yeah. Christmas Eve supper, a 12-course meal, and we put hay on the table. There's always a dish with barley or wheat and honey and nuts or raisins. Then, we had Barsch which is a type of fish. We had sauerkraut and some lima beans. And there are a couple of other smaller dishes. KJ: Are there any other smaller traditions that you guys have? DS: Well on Easter in Ukraine they would perform these dances and songs and the kids would all join in. They still do it around here but not as much, it's not as practical as it used to be. They also used to have water fights the day after Easter. The girls would go after the guys and the guys would go after the girls. KJ: Have your parents passed down any traditions to you that you still do? DS: We still do Christmas Eve dinner and on Easter we will have a big breakfast. There's eggs, ham, pasta, potato salad and stuff like that. KD: Are there any daily traditions or just ways of living that could be different from someone that isn't Ukrainian? DS: Well my kids have always told me that we were different because for one thing I have a large piece of land- I have 40 acres and I built my own house. Then they got to college and were surprised that nobody builds their own houses anymore. My father worked carpentry for quite a while and there are a lot of things that he showed me. As a matter of fact, when I got out of the service that is what I wanted to do. You know, build a house and sell it, build a house and sell it. I saved money up when I was in the service and then when I got out of the service my parents had built a house next to the one we have up here. My father came to me and said, "You see that house, you can't build it and sell it for enough to make money on it." So, I said, well I know electronics, so I got hired in GE and worked there for about a year then I worked for IBM for a while. They had this last layoff in 2009 and that's when I retired. KJ: So, you would say you had a good career path? DS: Yeah, it's interesting because now my sons are growing up now and working, and with all of the costs and student loans it's hard making ends meet. I don't mean to scare you but that's what a lot of people are experiencing. KD: Where did your children go to school? DS: Whitney Point. KD: Is that in the community? DS: Whitney Point is up I-81 about 20 miles. KJ: So, they stayed local. Did they ever consider leaving? DS: My son is still here, and my 2 daughters are back in Raleigh. Both of them are teachers down there. My older daughter was actually working at IBM when they started making the layoffs. So, then she went down there with my younger daughter. KJ: So that's Raleigh, North Carolina, right? DS: Raleigh, yes. KD: Have you ever thought about leaving Binghamton? DS: No, when I got out of the service I bought my aunt's share of my grandparents' farm and I got 33 acres out of that. Then my parents had more that they split up between me and my brothers and sisters. KD: Did all of your siblings stay in Binghamton too? DS: I have 2 sisters and 1 brother that stayed in the area. I have a brother in Ryder, New York and a sister in Queens. Then I have a sister in Cary, North Carolina, and I have another sister in Austin, Texas. My brother lives next door to me and my sister lives around the corner. KJ: Very close family. DS: Yes, we all experienced everything together. Even when we are apart we still remember our roots. KJ: Do you have any particular memories from when you were a kid? DS: Just the area. We used to go sledding around the roadside here, it's called Old Dale Hill Road. We would start up here at the Church and sled down the road. This area is loaded with fruit trees: plums, cherries, apples, peaches. Like I said my grandfather had tons of fruit, strawberries too. He would always get them out earlier than everyone else, like 2 weeks, and he'd always make out well on the strawberries with people, being the first one of the season. KJ: That sounds like an interesting childhood. DS: Yeah, I was a country boy because this is the outskirts here. This was all farm area around here still. I was an early riser, gone early morning, my mother would yell at me "Where'd you go?" KD: Do you think if your parents had settled in a bigger city your childhood would have been different? DS: Yes. We've had several different relatives that grew up in big cities and it seems like most of the kids got messed up. Maybe a couple of them were okay but most of them really had problems. KD: What do you think the biggest difference is living in the city? DS: It's hard to be as cultural in the city. You seem to have a lot less, I mean you have a small community here, where you knew the people and your parents knew who you were playing with and stuff like this, and in the city, you don't know where you're going. KJ: That is true, yeah. I think you could consider us both city kids, right Kevin? Do you consider yourself a city kid? KD: Yeah. KJ: Yeah, we grew up in the city. DS: Where did you grow up? KJ: I grew up in Brooklyn. D. Brooklyn, okay. I had relatives in the Bronx. KJ: Yeah, it's a different atmosphere. D. Yeah, we visited down there, somewhere in Jersey City, and the others are in the Bronx. KJ: It's a very different change coming to Binghamton from the city, I'll tell you that. DS: Yeah from Whitney Point, where you're driving a tractor to work. KJ: So, you said that there are/were multiple ethnic groups within the community, right? How would you say that affected your life growing up, or your perspective? D. Well, we were always aware of who we are, of who we were and who they were. And it was something that was respected too, okay you're this, you're that, and people identified with what they were. Today, everybody wants to mold it to a mold; you're not this, you're not that, you're not anything. KD: So, does that help you stay connected to your culture? DS: Yeah, and also a lot of the same interests. Music was a common interest, and we had close ties to music. My grandfather actually when he came to this country was a musician and all my--he played the cimbalom and the sopilka. The cimbalom, I don't know if you've ever seen it, it's like a trapezoid instrument, it's played with two sticks. And the sopilka is a flute, so he used to play the flute, and all my mother's brothers and some sisters actually played instruments, so that's why you could say there was a lot of music around. KJ: Are you a musician? DS: I played the accordion. I used to play in an ethnic band, a Ukrainian band from Syracuse. KJ: Do you still play it? DS: When I can. When my arthritis doesn't hurt. My brother plays too, and my sister played piano, and my mom, actually, two of my sisters, played piano. KJ: That's nice. So, music had a very big impact in your life then? DS: Oh yeah. KJ: Was that something that your parents brought over or was that just an interest of yours? DS: I think it was an interest because of how I was exposed to it, because they played, and I mean, my uncle actually, Geraldine, my uncle, he would, he played the piano and the accordion. He could play the piano at the concert level, I mean he could do show panel, you know what I'm saying? He used to just show her off because he was an appliance repair man, and he'd go to somebody and fix their refrigerator and there'd be a piano there and he'd sit down, and it'd be a show. [Imitates show music] And his family was a big influence, he influenced, that's where I got the accordion interest from, and he also turned out to be our choir director in Church. And now his son is the choir director, he died a couple of years ago. KD: How would you say your children's experiences have differed from your own here? DS: The children's experiences? Well they grew up in a different time, there wasn't that much. I mean they were tied here locally at the Church, but not as you know, because you know when this was local, all the kids you went to school with were your neighbors here. And now as we moved out, now you're in a country area. My son was the first group to ride the bus on our road, because it was originally just a field access road, I think there was barely enough room to get the horse and wagon through. And then they finally widened it when they opened the park up there, because the Binghamton Greenwood Park, is right down the road from us. My grandparents' farm went right up to the park, actually my father used to, I used to go there in the wintertime for the milk house. And so, they, they weren't as connected there, they were more just connected in the Church, but they had a different time like I said. They kind of grew up in something different because of the property and the fact that I built my own house, did all my own work. But now they're out on their own. KJ: So, you've seen Binghamton go through some pretty big changes from then, how would you say, what do you think are the biggest changes Binghamton's gone through? DS: Loss of jobs. Loss of jobs and the moving out, you know the children moved out. The people that had left the area, and the industries had left the area all by design. KD: So, if your grandparents were coming to America now, you don't think they would come to Binghamton? DS: No, what would there be for them? KD: Where do you think they would have gone instead? DS: If they were coming now, I don't know what, well for one thing it'd be a different reason why they were coming, right? Okay, things were very, life was very hard there. There was this idea of hey jobs, you could get jobs, you could better yourself, that's why they came. You're coming now, I don't know why they'd come. I mean although there is, there are people that are coming now, but I'm not sure, I don't know that many from Ukraine that are coming. KD: Is there anything about American culture that stands out to you? From all the places you've been when you were in the Navy? DS: Well my answer's quite different between here and like the Philippines. Totally different. Philippines gets a lot of rain, actually I was in some of the same places my father was during World War II. It was on in that there, the people are totting rice paddies, flood's going on. They're standing there with their little Coke, Coca-Cola, on the corner. You know there's this much water up there. KJ: That's really interesting. Is there anything specific that you remember from the War, like in any of the places that you've been to? Any good memories that you have? DS: Oh, they were all good memories. The only thing, I made two Westpac cruises to Vietnam, and the squadron I had, I was assigned to, had just came off of their training cruise. And I wish I could've done both, because it sounded like they had a totally different experience, because we were always going into ports and there was a ship you know, carrier coming in every week, 5000 guys. They had been talking to some of the guys that had come off the Mediterranean Cruise. They went on a cruise that no American ship had been on in like 5 or 10 years. And he says you go in there and the people would invite you in, they'd invite you right in their house. Certainly, a suburb. You'd drink, it was just totally different. Barcelona, Mediterranean, area there. It was quite different. KD: That's a really interesting experience. Most people, I would think, don't have as positive of an experience coming from the War. DS: I was on ship, I worked in the radio pool and I was actually in the Navy for two hours. That was the only time I actually spent on the thing, but we had planes coming up shot up, stuff like that. So there was actually a fire on our carrier one time, plane came in and the main mount broke, so when it landed and the main mount broke it tilted up, and when it tilted up it came loose from the cable that catches it, cause when it lands it catches the cable, and when it did that it reared off and crashed against a bunch of planes on the bow and started a fire. But, they had the fire out in 20 seconds. They had this guy in his vest suit, and he has this nozzle with PKB powder, wet water they call it, and they just go in there and just gut the fire out and push the plane through the other side. KJ: That's amazing. Was anyone hurt? DS: They lost 5 people, 1 was the pioneer on the plane that crashed. He had ejected, but when he ejected he was at an angle, so instead of going up and going down, he fell off that way. KJ: That's terrible. Are you still close to any of the men that you worked with during the War? Do you speak to any of them? DS: No, the only one I ever met, and this was years later, was actually in Owego. I looked over and there was my Chief that was my Chief on ship. I had a bench across from his office, and I looked over and he remembered me. Chief Chancy. He was preparing a training manual for the helicopters that they build here. That was about the only one I've ever met. KD: So, you weren't able to retain your ties with them? DS: No, at that time, I mean, I am buddies, but we weren't that close to where we corresponded or anything. Course there wasn't e-mail or anything like this, you know, so you don't know where in a couple of years, you know they're someplace. KD: So, you must have all came from different areas then? DS: Yeah. George was from, George Brown was from Texas, another guy from Nebraska, and there was a guy from New York here, Utica area. KJ: How do you think that changed your experience, meeting people from different areas? DS: It was, it gave me a great deal of, what's the word I want to use, confidence. That I could be myself, be with all these other people, and still be myself and my identity. You knew this guy and what he did, and they knew you and what you did and where you were from, and nobody says well I can never associate with you because you're from here, or because you're that. So, in that sense it gave me a deep set of confidence, and also learning because I was in Old Giants program, the aviation. That was a tough one. Because I had the, where I went to school in Memphis, after I got out of boot camp, they had the top 20, they would give you a test, the top 25 guys would go on this accelerated course. Well there was me and another guy were the only 2 guys that only had a high school education. There was guys in there that had Masters in physics or a Masters in Math. One guy had a Masters in sociology. So, me and this other guy, we were, they lowered the score to get us in the same class. That was tough. KJ: What would you say is one of your biggest life accomplishments? DS: Biggest life accomplishments? Probably building my house. Making it through. KJ: I would say that's a pretty big accomplishment. ` DS: And it continues on today now that I've retired, and I got a big orchard with over a 100 blueberry plants, 50 strawberries, not strawberry, blackberry and raspberry plants. Make my own wine, make my own sauerkraut. KJ: That's amazing. Did anybody teach you how to do that, or you learned on your own? DS: I looked online. I still can make some wine because I got all these blueberries, so I looked it up and okay, you know, they tell you to prepare it. Put these tablets in and you know here's the yeast, you got to get some yeast, you put the yeast in. Well I put the yeast in and it bubbled a few times and stopped. So, I said, oh, so I went online again, and it said 10 reasons why fermentation stops, and well, one thing was my temperature where I had the wine was too low. It's got to be between 70 and 75 so I kind of made this incubator so to speak, I had one of my electric thermostats, because I put electric heat around the house, I put it in there and plugged it all in. Set this for 75 and that blew up, then I also found out that the blueberries, or wild berries, everything about making wine is geared towards grapes. Grapes have natural enzymes and stuff, so I found out that you had to add these enzymes and also there isn't that much sugar, because you can't use just all berries, because you would get too much undesirables, so you diluted it. I think it was 5 gallons of berries that mashed down to about 2 gallons and I did the rest of it with water. So, you have to add these nutrients back in to get it to fermented. Once I did that and tried it again it took off and made a good batch of wine. So, every year for Christmas I have that wine. KJ: Do you sell it ever? DS: No, you can't sell it. KJ: Oh wait, do you need the license? DS: You'd need a license. In fact, in different years we have berries. I'm getting my own berries and so does my cousin, he has other plants too and the guy that lives across the street had 165 plants. But nothing had been done to them in 35 years, so they weren't able to grow. I mean his brother was 6 feet 6 and he couldn't reach them. He had to get in there and you couldn't walk through them. We actually, my cousin and I, went over there after season and we went in and trimmed them, where you couldn't even walk between the rows. We had them, so you could drive a tractor through. So that's, that I would inherit to my, well no I was going to say from a different point of view, that I attribute to my upbringing, doing don't worry about how to do it, go ahead and do it, you'll figure it out one way, some way or the other. I mean cause not only did I build my house; I did all of my own plumbing, all of my own electric, all the deciding, all that stuff. KJ: That's very strong values to have. DS: Yeah now my son's doing it. He's doing a little bit of stuff, actually I have a saw mill too, I cut my own logs. The addition I put on my house was all done in pine and I actually made the flooring for it too, done in ash. KJ: That's amazing. All the houses I see are brick so that's quite a different perspective. DS: Yeah that was an experience too because I had these logs and I had to get them cut up and then I saw an advertisement for a saw, but it was kind of small, so I expanded it after I bought it and then I expanded it again, so I could get a much bigger log out of there. But now I harvested quite a few trees and ran them through the still, not the still, the kiln. I had a solar kiln that I built, somehow, I had maple, ash, cherry, oak, spalted beech. KJ: So, what else do you spend your time doing, other than all of that? DS: I'm still doing some remodeling. I just finished the pantry and I'm getting ready to do hardwood floors on the rest of the house. KD: So, do you see your family living here for a long time in the future? DS: As long as they got something to do, some place to, you know, some place to, that's one of the problems you know as people move out, finding when they come back they have to have a place to stay, otherwise they won't visit. Okay it's like you, if you were back in your hometown and you could stay at your parents' house, you know even after you get married. Go visit them, you'd probably might visit them. KJ: So, what would you say that you value the most in life? DS: Value the most in life? My religion. KD: So, would you say you're proud of identifying as Ukrainian? DS: Yeah. KD: In what ways does that make you most proud? Like what are the specific? DS: Well I don't think it's a matter of pride, it's a matter of who I am. And I'm okay with that. You want to be something else, be something else. But you know this is what I am, you know I'm not, I'm not a mixture, somebody else is going to build their own house, plant berries, that's what I like to, that's what I do. Somebody else has different interests, that's them. KJ: It seems like you have a very strong sense of identity. How would you kind of categorize what your identity means to you? Like what exactly does being Ukrainian mean to you? DS: It's the Church practices, the religion, the traditions. There's many different, one of the things growing up as being Ukrainian is you have to know who you are and how you're different from everybody else. So, you have a more stronger sense of where you came from, why these things are your traditions, what they are. Why you have certain feelings, you know I have certain feelings. I mean one of them, I have a great love for mountainous area. I mean that was one thing when I went across country and you know everything's flat until you hit Ohio. When I drove home from the service, when I got out, being in flat land makes me nervous. It's like I'm on a big hill but I can't see the edge. But I love the mountains and you know when I look where my grandparents came from, my wife's father always talked about finding the mountains which are a lot taller than New York. But he also had the same thing, he loves mushrooms that was the other thing I, I have a dilemma when I go to the woods because I like to hunt, and I like mushrooms, and I did the logging. So, I'm in the woods and I go well that's a nice tree, I could make a, oh look at these mushrooms, oh wait you're hunting! KJ: Sounds like you have a very busy life going on. DS: Yeah, I just never was one to sit around and do nothing. KD: So, you mentioned that you have a strong sense of who you are and how You're different from other types of cultures. What would you say makes you the most different from any other culture? DS: The most different from any other, I don't think there's that much difference, I think in every culture you have people who are stronger, people that value time and are always producing something. You know I wouldn't see myself as being different, different in a sense that I'm different from everybody else. I just have these values that I worked towards, and some people have other values that they worked towards. KJ: So, we're coming towards the end of the interview. We have like 8 minutes left. KD: How do you think your opinions would be different if you came here by yourself? Like if you were the one that came to America? DS: How would my opinions be different? I don't know if my opinions would be different, what I would face would be different, and how I would have gotten here would be different. My grandparents faced what was going on in that time, and in this country isn't the same as it was 100 years ago when they came here. The situation's not the same as what they came under 100 years, it's a lot different from when I was born. I mean I could still remember my one channel on TV, no microwaves, and it was strange that we were cleaning out my mother's house, she died here on Easter, and we were cleaning her house and there was this thing. And my brothers and sisters didn't know what it was, and it was the floodlights they used to use for making video cameras cause your video camera now, you don't need it, but they used to have 4 big floodlights and they used to walk around to make a 50 minute, a 50-foot reel thing. So, there's a lot of things that are different there, but they're both different here and different from where I had come from, if I was to just come here by myself. KD: Did your parents ever tell you anything about coming over, travel wise? DS: My parents didn't come here, my grandparents, when you talked to them it was the equivalent of going from here to Philadelphia with whatever you had on your back or whatever you could carry. And maybe that trip to get to the boat and come over here, when you're on the boat. KD: Did they ever go back after they came here? DS: Well my grandfather did go back at the time, the one grandfather, my mother's father. The others they never went back. Of course, most of it was that they were from Ukraine, so it was closed up after World War I, after Stalin, Lenin, overtook Ukraine and they corresponded and it was very sporadic. KJ: Did they have good experiences, like do they remember Ukraine fondly or is it more of a bittersweet memory? DS: It's probably bittersweet. They liked some of the things, but life was hard over there, it was. You worked all year and all summer long, morning to night, to survive. KJ: Yeah, it's a very difficult lifestyle. Did any of your grandparents fight in the war? DS: I don't believe so. My father was in the war, my wife's father, he was in World War II. He actually fought in UFA, which was the Ukrainian army. He actually fought in most of the service, and the communists. Well they actually fought against the communists because Ukraine at the time saw communism just as bad, worse, than they say Nazism. There was a lot of guys that came over here that did fight for them and they were scared. They were scared for a long time that someone was going to come for them. KJ: I can imagine. So, we have a couple minutes left, so is there anything that you would like to add to the interview that we didn't already discuss? DS: It's good to see you doing this. I mean it's always good to share what you know. That's one of the things that I think, one of the worst things now is I built my own house, I have all these other things I've done, but there's not anybody really to take any of that knowledge. I mean either from there's nobody that has an interest, which is a problem. I mean we're looking at my parents' house and there's nobody that wants a fixer-upper. They want to go in, give me a TV and internet connection and let somebody else do the work. That's not a good attitude to have. KD: So, have you had a chance to share your story with anyone else? DS: Not directly like this, I mean I always shared with my kids, I mean they know a lot of the stories and stuff and they remember what they grew up with. And my son now, he's on his own, he's doing stuff to his house. He's picked it up and thought oh I want to do this and do that. So now he's doing it. He was just at my place making his own molding for his house. He told molding out and was exchanging it for pine molding. KJ: That's nice. I mean you could consider this your legacy, which is pretty cool to have. You know you're going to go into the records, people will be able to see what your life was like. It's very interesting. Well, thank you for speaking with us. KD: Thank you for your time. KJ: This was very informative. DS: Oh, you're welcome. There's lots of things that people used to have, even driving in this area and what used to be here and what isn't. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Sanyshyn Subject The topic of the resource Sanyshyn, David. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Church; Ukrainian--music; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sanyshyn, David ; DeLuca, Kevin ; Jermansky, Kayla Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David Sanyshyn is a retired engineer and is a third generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in the Binghamton area. He is a Vietnam War veteran, having served two terms in the Navy, and is active in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He met his wife, a second generation Ukrainian, in the United States. They have 3 children together and 4 grandchildren, and reside in Binghamton. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Sanyshyn.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8892c6b47cdd0d2658b7f099024f0a03.mp3 eaa2f5d07ca1ac61d80fe39c8b07156a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43:46 minutes Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amin Amin Date of Interview 22 March 2013 Language English Biographical Text Amin Amin fled his hometown, which was located north of the Kurdish city of Duhok, to escape Saddam Hussein’s violence towards Kurds. He arrived in the United States with his family in 1992 and settled in Johnson City, NY, where he grew up among a Kurdish community. Although his primary language is Kurdish, he became fluent in English and was able to blend in within the American society and culture. Amin has a master’s degree from Tennessee State University (TSU). Digital Publisher Binghamton University Keywords Kurdish; United States; Diaspora; Kurdistan; Saddam Hussein; Duhok; Iraq; Binghamton; Johnson City; Broome County; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Amin Amin Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 22 March 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 EI: So, let us start with your full name, okay. 0:07 AA: Amin Amin. 0:08 EI: Amin Amin. Birth place? 0:12 AA: Um, Iraq. 0:13 EI: Iraq. What is it? 0:14 AA: Like northern Iraq, like Kani Balave. 0:17 EI: Okay, I mean the city? 0:19 AA: Kani Balave, like that is the area. 0:21 EI: Duhok or? 0:22 AA: Yeah, north of Duhok. 0:24 EI: North of Duhok, part of Duhok right? 0:27 AA: Yeah. 0:27 EI: Okay. Okay. Is it a village or a small city? 0:30 AA: I mean I was born right about when we ran away from Saddam Hussein and stuff, so it was like in¬¬– 0:36 EI: When did you born? 0:37 AA: (19)87, 1987. 0:39 EI: Do you remember anything? [laughs] 0:43 AA: Nah, not much, not much– 0:46 EI: Okay, good. You are originally Kurd and Sunni? 0:51 AA: Yes. 0:52 EI: Are you married? 0:54 AA: No. 0:56 EI: How many siblings do you have? 0:58 AA: I have four brothers and four sisters. 1:00 EI: Okay, Mashallah. What is your education level? 1:03 AA: Getting my master’s in a month. 1:07 EI: Okay, in BU [Binghamton University] or– 1:08 AA: No in uh, TSU [Tennessee State Univeristy] in uh Tennessee. 1:15 EI: Ah, okay, okay, good. Uh your native language is Kurdish. Other languages you know? 1:24 AA: I know some French but not too well. 1:27 EI: Uh number of years in the United States? 1:32 AA: Um I came here in 1992, so it is going on twenty-one years. 1:36 EI: Okay, 1992 you came here. 1:38 AA: Yeah so going to twenty-one almost. 1:42 El: Yeah ok, so when you came here you were three years old right? 1:45 AA: Yeah just about. 1:47 EI: Okay. 1:48 AA: I was turning five, probably four. 1:51 EI: Yeah, (19)87. Do you remember anything, when you came here? 1:59 AA: What was the question? When I came here? Not much I have like visual memories here and then but nothing like too specific. You know. Maybe some images, you know, but nothing too uh– 2:12 EI: So, how was your childhood? 2:16 AA: I mean it was uh– 2:18 EI: What do you remember? 2:19 AA: When I came here I did not go to school the first year, so I was mostly around my family, you know, just you know– 2:27 EI: Do you remember anything at that time? I mean how was it? 2:30 AA: When I first came here? 2:32 EI: Yeah. 2:33 AA: I mean to me it just seemed normal. 2:35 EI: Not, like the last years, you were just– 2:38 AA: We were in Turkish camps and we came here as refugees. 2:43 EI: Do you remember anything from Turkish camps? 2:44 AA: No, I mean like I got images– 2:47 EI: And when they tell, I mean your family? How they tell, did they tell you anything about it or? 2:54 AA: I mean we were there for about four years almost. 3:00 EI: Four years in Turkey? 3:01 AA: Yeah, Turkish camps. 3:03 EI: Where? 3:06 AA: Diyarbakır. 3:09 EI: Diyarbakır, Okay. Did they tell anything, did you ask them that what happened– 3:11 AA: I mean it was a hard life style, you know it is like you just got maybe couple loaves of bread and maybe like some soup for the whole family for the whole day, you know. And It was you could not really do any work, you know, so my dad tried to do some jobs, but most of the time it was illegal if you like hop the border or something like that, but he would try to do some jobs inside the camps and stuff like that, like tried to make some extra money. But it was hard to do any jobs they tell us that I mean it was a hard life style you know. 3:49 EI: Yeah, I mean, maybe your mum told you were sick like we were taking of you. Do you have any stories like that they told? 4:00 AA: Yeah, I mean, we would always like get sick and my brother would need medicine sometime and my dad would have to go you all the way to Iran and to get medicine, my brother is one year older than me but my dad would have to walk, you know he had to get medicine, and he had to do whatever he can you know, make money, however but it was like we were in camps so it was like very hard life style but um- 4:23 EI: What was his job in Duhok. 4:27 AA: When we first came I mean he was like a veterinarian for like animals and stuff like that we take care of them, but then he also did like, he did a lot of different jobs, you know, his family had farm land that was in Iraq but in Turkey, there was really like no jobs, just in refugee camps– 4:51 EI: Was it tent or constructions, the camps? 4:57 AA: No, it was tents. All the stories they told it was tents. Like one family would get a big tent but you get eleven, because my family and my uncles’ family we lived, probably back then it was fifteen or sixteen of us in that tent that is enough for like two three rooms, like two rooms. 5:15 EI: Okay, and for, for you sister– 5:16 AA: I think after like the second year they gave them another tent so they moved out, it was a little more space, you know. 5:23 EI: Yeah, Actually. It should be difficult for you I mean you are still alive because a long way if they have told you, I do not know. How long have been they have walked to come there? 5:36AA: To come to Turkey? 5:40 EI: Yeah. 5:40 AA: Um, I would estimate like probably like over fifty-sixty miles or close to a hundred and you know on their way they had a lot of problems, a lot people would throw their kids because they could not walk no more, they were just leave their kids, a lot of times like, or the planes would be shooting at them, and you are looking for your kid you do not know where they are at, everybody is running away and a lot of people lost their kid, one of my sisters, she was on my grandmother’s house when that happened and we left and my grandparents went another way, so she went with them, she did not come to America until like (19)96-(19)97. We did not see her. She was with them but at that time we did not know but you know later on they called, they got information that she was with them. So, like a lot of people just lost their kids, and a lot of people on their way they could just walk any more, if you did not have you know transportation like donkeys or whatever, you know stuff like that, a lot of people would just fall on the ground and just die right there. 6:44 EI: How did they tell stories about life in Kurdistan before war? 6:51 AA: Before war, I mean our family had ups and down do you know like financially, you know. Sometimes it would be rich and then over there is no insurance like my dad had a store, it burned down– 7:04 EI: Why? 7:05 AA: Huh? 7:06 EI: Why? 7:07 AA: Like they had farms and stuff like that, sometimes, one time he told us that the farm got on fire and they lost like everything, there is no insurance, no nothing, so you are done for the year. 7:16 EI: The fire you said, is it just accidental? 7:19 AA: Yeah, that was before we run to Turkey. I mean this is he telling me stories like the (19)70s and (19)80s, but there is no, you never know, it might not rain that year, you do not get crops you going to live bad that year you know. 7:35 EI: Yeah, exactly. It should be difficult on you. Especially in camps– 7:43 AA: Yeah, in the camps even one of my uncles because I had two uncles one of them died like twenty-seven and a lot of people, I mean a lot of the people and even like my parents and my uncle and my dad still believe that you know, because sometimes they would send bread maybe expired or um no good and they would eat it, you know, because he had stomach problem and stuff like that and he eventually died from it. So, I mean over there you know you get whatever you get, whatever they give you, you eat. 8:21 EI: No choice. 8:22 AA: Yeah, you basically you live in the mud too. You sleep on that a lot, you are breathing in it. 8:30 EI: Is your dad still alive? 8:31 AA: Yeah, my father. 8:33 EI: Okay, great. So, from which part you remember your childhood? I mean when you started school here or before? 8:46 AA: Yeah, right when we got here, my uncle he knew like alphabet, numbers and stuff like that, right then when I was four years old you know he showed me the alphabet and he showed me numbers and I started reading like little words, like cat, dog, before I even went to school and all of us Kurdish people we were like in some buildings over the main street in Johnson city like in those two big buildings they burned down recently, but we all lived there, there was like seven or eight of us, of our families, and we always go out and see each other, you know. 9:23 EI: All the families were there? 9:24 AA: Yeah, we were the original, it was my family. There was about seven families like came here in 1992. There was only one guy in 91 he came here before us and he brought most of us, did our paperwork and brought us here. You know and um we all lived in those apartments and you know, we would go and see each other every night and you know the refugee people would help us you know. I guess it is probably the American Civic did stuff like that, they helped us, they took us to stores, and you know they showed us how food stamp worked and stuff like that. 9:58 EI: Yeah, okay. So, what were you doing, I mean you just play with the other Kurdish children or? 10:05 AA: Yeah, Yeah, Mostly we were just like, you know we had a big family, so we would hang out just with the family and there was other Kurdish people would walk to the park, you know there is a park about a quarter mile down the road, you know we would walk there and have fun over there, do stuff around– just like stuff kids would do and then I went to school there elementary of Abraham Lincoln, I went there. 10:32 EI: Yeah, you started school, here right? 10:35 AA: Yup, Kindergarten, I went to Kindergarten, I mean I learned the language in like two three months you know– 10:39 EI: English? 10:40 AA: Yes, I was so young I learnt it quick, um I was just mostly with them, and then we just do what kids do, you know. 10:48 EI: Yeah, exactly. Was it difficult to learn, I mean not to learn in a short period, how was it? 10:55 AA: I mean it was easy, it was easy for me to learn, and I mean to be honest I think my, because I mean we are very cultural, like Kurdish people, like after I was done with like, I think my English was best when I was eighth or ninth grade, because I was hanging out with both American and Kurdish people, but as I got older I started hanging out more with Kurdish people, we are cultural you know, so probably my English got worse, believe it or not. 11:25 EI: [laughs] Yeah, you should be right. So, what you were doing in school? 11:29 AA: I mean in school, like right when I started I was really good at school because you know my uncle prepared me and I mean they always pushed me to do good at school so I mean you just go to school, do all my school work, and you know, made friends here and there like American friends to, and you know I would come home but like I would never like go out with them, it was just school time I would be with the American people and when I got home we would just be home, my dad would go to work and come home and we just hang out stuff like that. 12:01 EI: What was his job at that time? 12:03 AA: Um he did mostly um like uh a custodial work, you know like uh, janitor and stuff like that. Maintenance for buildings and yeah, he did mostly that type of work. 12:14 EI: Your mom, she is a housewife? 12:17 AA: Yeah, she is at home. I mean she had eight kids you know [laughs] at the time there was six of us at that time, but- 12:25 EI: Are you all studying or I mean are you all went to college or? 12:29 AA: Yeah, I mean I am getting my masters, two of my sisters had their associates another one of them is working; she is trying to get her nursing degree. My other brother has Bachelors in business; he is working for like a research company. He is doing pretty well. My other brother is going to get associates in civil engineering, and then my younger brother he is working for his associates in civil engineering too. 12:57 EI: Why all civil engineering and engineering? 13:00 AA: I do not know I did it, I started out with computer science but– 13:06 EI: No social science? 13:08 AA: No, I do not know the job market over here is civil engineering it is called whether it you got concrete, expanding and contrasting you got concrete break and you got asphalt um, you know the roads are horrible, there are always going to be bad because of the snow, so there is a lot of civil engineering jobs you know. There is not that many like if you do business. My brother did business but now I mean it was hard for him to find a job here, so he is in Tennessee right now and he found a good job over there, so you going to go with the job market. So, I think that is why everybody doing civil engineering. That’s what I think. 13:43 EI: It is interesting, yeah, okay. So after, you continued school here in Binghamton, right? 13:55 AA: Yes, well, we lived in Johnson City until about probably um (19)96 – (19)97 and then we moved to Binghamton, and then we stayed in Binghamton until– 14:05 EI: Was there any difference between them? 14:07 AA: Johnson City and Binghamton? Uh, Not really, not too much, um– 14:13 EI: You went to another school, you changed school? 14:15 AA: Yeah, changed schools. I went to um Theodor Roosevelt over in Binghamton. 14:19 EI: How was it that time? 14:21 AA: It was pretty good, but um it was pretty good. Not too many changes really. And then I went to the middle school over there. 14:32 EI: How was life there in middle school? Still hanging out with uh Kurds or– 14:37 AA: Yeah, in middle school it was mostly. It was a mix, it was probably fifty-fifty. You know as many Kurdish friends as American friends. But we still– the Kurdish people hang out together you know. We still did not, most of us hang out together, uh during even like lunch time or after school, we would definitely just be together we would go, we lived in like basically in um like housing, it is like projects, we would go play basketball, you know after school and we would do that for two, three hours or we go play soccer and it was just sports, we were mostly into sports, yeah, we did a lot of sports. It was either school or sports. 15:18 EI: So how was the life for your family at that time? I mean, they just tried to survive or uh what was the general– 15:29 AA: I mean yeah, I mean it was not too good, we were living in projects. If you live in projects your life style is not too good you know– 15:37 EI: What do you mean? 15:38 AA: Like projects is like housing when you have a lot of apartments together, and all the apartments look alike, that is like a project you know. And I mean it was mostly like a ghetto basically. Yeah it was a ghetto and we lived in there but we made it, our parents always got us what we wanted and stuff like that, but we were not living in the best style you know but because our dad like my parents they always pushed us towards education, they were like do not worry about work, do not worry about money, do not think about money, my parents always they said that to us, just worry about education and they were right you know. 16:18 EI: And they always supported you for your education. 16:21 A: For the education all the time. And never, never for like for money, they told us do not think about money, [laughter] you know because if you start thinking about money a lot of people they send their kids to work at sixteen and seventeen full time, they will not be able to do school you know. 16:38 EI: Yeah exactly. 16:39 AA: A lot of people, a lot of even Kurdish families even other families did that and yeah, they had nice cars then but now they barely making it and the people who went for education they have nice cars and nice houses, you know. It catches up to you. 16:55 EI: Yeah, exactly I mean it is guarantee for wanting you. Yeah it is good I mean, same with my family, they always supported us to just go to school, just get your education, like graduate from university. So yeah, it is good they have this idea. Okay good, and then high school or? 17:20 AA: Yeah, then Binghamton High School um. 17:23 EI: Where is it? 17:23 AA: Binghamton High School, it is in downtown Main Street in Binghamton. 17:29 EI: How was it? 17:30 AA: It was pretty good, it was pretty average, same thing, mostly, after that I went towards like mostly Kurdish friends, it was probably 80 percent, like 80 to 90 percent of my friends were Kurdish or Bosnian, you know we associate with the Bosnian people a lot. 17:53 EI: Uh how was it different, I mean why, yeah it is cultural but were there any tension between you and others or? 18:01 AA: No I would not say tension, we just knew other families we just go to each other’s houses, we grew up together, we had the same religious background and then we had the same culture, and we understood each other like, you know people, because we tend to stay away from like parties or like drinking, or like going out, that’s what a lot like the other culture they all talked about, parties– Because we did not do any of that stuff, so it was not comfortable for us to hang out with them you know, um and then, we were just comfortable with Kurdish people. 18:42 EI: Yeah, so that is why. Okay, uh were you fighting? [laughs] 18:49 AA: Yeah, I mean there was fight here and there. We had good amount probably through high school three – four fight. [laughter] It happens but you know I mean we grew up in, we understood, I mean it was not– 19:07 EI: What was the main reason behind it? 19:09 AA: I mean mostly it was, um it was mostly just like if we got picked on or something like that, some of us stand up for you know, or some of us just be like whatever but it was me and my brothers and my cousins and stuff like that, there was enough of us that we stand up for ourselves, you know. We would not take. Because I mean we grew up in the environment like we knew if you stand up for yourself they will leave you alone, if you do not stand up for yourself it is going to happened every day. We understood that, so we did not let anybody push us around, we were not crazy but we would stand up for us, and then we got respect for that. We grew up in that environment; we knew how it was– 19:55 EI: Yeah culturally, I mean you should be from Saddam– 19:57 AA: Yeah, yeah, I mean there would never be fights among like us Kurdish people though, rarely like I do not remember ever a Kurdish person fighting a Kurdish person, but I mean if there was another like group of people that wanted to fight us, we would always stand up for ourselves. 20:13 EI: Yeah, okay. So, what do you think about, uh let us back. Have you been in Kurdistan? 20:26 AA: Yeah, after 2003, but my family they go a lot, my parents– 20:32 EI: Why? They miss it or? 20:33 AA: Yeah, they miss it and I mean they got direct family over there– 20:38 EI: Yeah, still got relatives there. 20:41 AA: Yeah, so they go for visit. But for me like they are my relatives and stuff but I do not really know them that well you know. So yeah, I got feelings for them but some of my friends here became my family and they become my friends even when my family in Kurdistan. You know what I am saying. [laughter] It is hard to have that feeling for somebody you never met. 21:03 EI: Yeah, so in 2003 you went there? How was it, what do you remember? 21:10 AA: I mean, it was pretty good, but um like the people over there, they have a different mindset than the people grew up here, you know something we find it funny is not funny to them you know, or something they find funny. [laughter] I am like that is not funny you know. So, it is like two different people you know. Because I grew up over here I like to watch basketball or American football, over there they go crazy about soccer, you know? I like soccer too but for me American football or basketball is more of my type, but if I talk about a basketball player with them they are like what are you talking about who cares, [laughter] and if I talk about American football they going to be like so what, and then we were– it is different mindset stuff, I can definitely tell I was not a 100 percent comfortable over there. 22:01 EI: Yeah okay, just game things were different for you and them? Or– 22:09 AA: No, I mean just even- 22:12 EI: Have you been talking about politics or something– 22:15 AA: Yeah, I mean even like politics, what we are exposed to is different than they are exposed to, what I see on TV, they might not see, but what they see in the country I will not see, you know. 22:26 EI: So, what was the main difference for example? 22:27 AA: Um let us say like, I do not know even, let us say I talked about um North Korean politics or something like that or what is going on in North Korea. They probably did not know that much about North Korea, you know, they did not have when they grew up, they did not have that, they did not really care, I do not know if they did not care or they did not look into like the news stuff like that you know. Over here you are exposed to all the news from all different countries you know, you got Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen all those places you know, for them I do not think they were exposed to that many, that much news or they did not or might not care, but um. I do not know just the stuff I would find fun like going to a movie or something like that, they did not go to movies over there. Very rarely, maybe in the last for-three years they built movie theaters over there. So, for me it would be fun to go watch a movie or you know– 23:27 EI: Actually, maybe it was not possible for them because it is a new established country and- 23:31 AA: Yeah, so for me the fun doing something going for a movie for them something fun is go on the top of a mountain and grill and dance and stuff like that, it is different you know. 23:45 EI: [laughs] Yeah, exactly, exactly, so what is the country for you, I mean, [clears throat] what is Kurdistan for you? 23:57 AA: I mean for me it is, we are really cultural so for us it is always home, you know. That is always home. Every Kurdish person you ever talk to they have intentions to go back sometime you know– 24:12 EI: What about you? 24:13 AA: Huh? For me I mean I want to, but it just going to depend on the situation what I am doing at that time, for me right now I am doing my education and I cannot just get up and leave. I will be working soon. I cannot just get up and leave, but I plan to but it is going to be really hard to find the right time you know. 24:33 EI: Yeah, for the future you are planning or– 24:36 AA: Yeah, like I always had that in the back of my mind but I also know it is going to be very hard because my brothers and sisters are here and I go there it is just going to be hard, and you know. We want to but it is going to be tough, but I mean if the economy, I mean they had a lot to do with the economy, if the economy still gets worse here, because still gets worse and the economy over there is booming right now. You know if it keeps on progressing, I think a lot of us going back and a lot of Kurdish people had already gone back for good. Like there is a good amount of Kurdish people that going back for Kurdistan for good. 25:14 EI: They are going back? 25:16 AA: Yeah, they have. 2517 EI: Really? 25:17 AA: Yeah, over the last eight or nine years like a good amount expressly [especially] from Europe. 25:22 EI: I mean because of job opportunities? 25:24 AA: Yeah, like jobs and um I mean the life style is hard here now, it is not like used to be. You know you use to able to find, you know a lot of people would work here and they just quit their job and the next they go to a different job that is how, in the nineties that is how was Binghamton. 25:43 EI: Yeah. 25:43 AA: You know you can leave job and go to a better job the next day, right now people would never their job you know, you will never find another job if you leave it. So, a lot of people going back. 25:58 EI: Yeah, could you follow, are you following the news in Kurdistan? Like watching TV? 26:04 AA: Yeah, we have Kurdish satellite at the house, you know Kurdish satellite, so we keep up with that here and there. 26:11 EI: What do you think for the recent developments or in general for the country? 26:17 AA: I mean, from what I hear and what I see, I mean if you are talking financially, you the economy is like booming or they are doing really well, and I mean a lot of people over there if you show them a 2006 car they will never drive it, they get I do not want to drive this, they are all driving 2011, 2012 over there, everybody is. So it has changed dramatically but at the same time yeah they are good and wealthier but everybody who goes back there come back and say there is no more, I do not know how to say it in English, you know rahm, like rahm, emotion there is no like connection with the families stuff like that, so yeah they are getting richer but their affection for each other like their love for each other is getting worse. So, the money might be there, but everybody goes back and comes back you know they say there is no more rahm, there is no more affection for each other. 27:21 EI: Yeah, the cultural emotion, yeah, I do not know. 27:26 AA: Yeah it is getting weaker– 27:28 EI: Maybe it is strong in Binghamton, I do not know because there is a good Kurdish community here, their relation is good because for that, I do not know. 27:33 AA: Yeah, it is good here but when they go back to Kurdistan, every year they get richer in Kurdistan but the emotion gets less. 27:45 EI: Yeah good. So, what is the United States for you? 27:46 AA: The United States, I mean that’s, this is where I grew up with at too you know, at the same time it is also home believe it or not. [laughter] so like two homes, it is like having two homes but never feeling like fulfilled, you never full it is like um– 28:07 EI: Both sides maybe you go there you will have the same feelings– 28:13 AA: Yeah, I tell a lot of my friends. 28:15 EI: You miss something here or if you are here you miss something there. 28:17 AA: I tell a lot of my friends I am like you know we are not American and we are not Kurdish, you know it is hard for us– 28:26 EI: Just in between– 28:27 AA: It is really tough because we cannot get along, we get along with American but you cannot live their life style, their life style is different than you know, our life style is different than a regular American you know. I am not going to go out and party, I am not going to out and drink, I just do not like that, you know it is against the religion I do not like it, where I am not going to you know stuff that they find fun I do not find fun you know, I do not want to go on the beach, you know have naked run for no reason, but then if I go back to Kurdistan, we do not, we were not like them either you know, they are different you know, I am not going to go on a mountain and dance for no reason, [laughter] or they like that yeah, or I am not going to go and talk about somebody or like over there it is about power you know, if somebody is more powerful than me I am not going to be like yes sir yes sir, I am not going to be his servant, you know we are not like these people we are different, you know. 29:24 EI: Yeah, exactly. New generation– 29:27 AA: Yeah, we are mixed, we are not like the American, and we are not like the Kurdish people. 29:32 EI: Yeah, what about your father and mother, do they want to go back or? 29:38 AA: I mean sometimes they say yes, but sometimes like over the last time that they have gone, they see that the affection is not the same, it is different you know. Yeah it is better to live but I mean also you over here you got the best doctors you know, over here you never have to worry about corruption, you never have to worry about it really you know, I mean you have your um laws as a citizen, you know, nobody can take your laws [rights] away from you. 30:06 EI: What do you think about corruption, do you believe that there is corruption now or? 30:10 AA: Where? 30:11 EI: In Kurdistan? 30:12 AA: Oh, yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. It is tough though– 30:17 EI: What kind of corruption? 30:20 AA: Like let us say you want to meet with somebody, you know let us say like a congressman but not even a congressman like a just let us say like a doctor or something, you have to go to a doctor, if you know somebody, you going to be in the waiting room maybe for like six, seven hours and then somebody would walk in and he will go straight to see the doctor, and he will yell at the doctor, if I go and yell at the doctor, they will never see me again, they might even arrest me. There is other people that walk in and yell at the doctor and maybe even give the doctor a smack, and the doctor cannot say anything to them so I mean that is corruption to me or if you want to do your paperwork, if you know people it is going to be easier for you to see the person to do your paperwork. 31:08 EI: Okay, is it so common or in some places? 31:12 AA: Like I have not been there but I mean you hear stories, I do not think, it is not like it is not like horrible but it could be better, it could always be better. I mean it is like over here too, but it is very minimal over here. Like if you know somebody there is a better chance you going to get a job, but it is minimal here, over there it is a little more but hopefully it is going to get better. 31:38 EI: Still I think maybe could not establish a bureaucracy? 31:42 AA: It is tough you know, I mean– 31:44 EI: Still there is family relations, tribal relations– 31:48 AA: And then the older generation has a different mindset, it is going to take maybe a hundred-two hundred years for the mindset to change. The older generation yeah, because– 31:59 EI: But– I think you had different ideas from that so, maybe one or two generation will be– 32:04 AA: Yeah, one or two generation that is probably a hundred years you would say? 31:16 EI: No, maybe ten to thirty years– 32:19 AA: Oh really? Okay. 32:20 EI: Yeah, but okay we do not know what happen because it is not easy to even to talk about one people so for one country for one nation, you do not know that– 32:32 AA: I think it will take some time. 32:35 EI: But you said lots of people are going back to Kurdistan, so– 32:39 AA: Yeah, there is people going back, I think it has to do with both economy– 32:43 EI: And there is a lot of students here as I know outside– 32:46 AA: Yeah, they do send them, they send them but I think a lot of people going back just because of the economy you know, both the economy been bad here and the fact that the economy is still good over there. People go where the money is you know. We came here because of the economy too. You know the economy was horrible there and you know, we were been oppressed we came here for that too. 33:16 EI: Yeah. Not just economy of course– 33:21 AA: Like war. 33:29 EI: Exactly. So yeah, the war, do you think the tension will increase again between Arabs and Kurds there, or? 33:44 AA: Um, to me I think if there ever is going to be a problem is going to be over Kirkuk. That is me personally. 33:52 EI: What? 33:53 AA: Kirkuk, Kirkuk. 33:54 EI: Kirkuk okay. 33:55 AA: I think it is going to be because of that. It is all rich and it is right in the middle. So, I think if they resolve that somehow, you know if they say we split it or something like that I think they resolve that, I do not see why there would be a tension, but I think if there is ever going to be a problem it is going to be over Kirkuk between the Arabs and the Kurdish people and then between Kurdish and the Turkish government I think that is over land you know, if everyone, draw a map you know Turkey is not going to give up their land so but I think between Arabs it is only going to be over Kirkuk that is how see it. 34:36 EI: Do you believe in independence or is it good now for you? 34:40 AA: Um, I mean. 34:40 EI: I mean the recent condition of Kurdistan– 34:45 AA: Oh no, we are not satisfied, Kurdish people are not satisfied with just right now just because there is peace because unless you have your own borders you are not going to feel complete. You want your own property. 35:00 EI: Is it security or just? 35:02 AA: No, you feel more comfortable, like right now if you live in an apartment but you know it is not yours. Once you buy your house, you feel complete, you are like this is my house, this is my stuff. So, I think that is what the boundaries are going to do. So yeah, right now they are living in an apartment but you want your lands, you want to be able like this is mine I control it. 35:26 EI: So, I mean if there is like a referendum or something, you will vote for independence, is it right? 35:32 AA: Yeah, if they even let us vote over here sometimes, even for their stuff over there like we will drive to Washington and we will vote for presidency and stuff like that for Iraq. 35:47 EI: You are citizen of both countries, right? 35:49 AA: Yes. 35:49 EI: Okay, good, double citizenship. 35:52 AA: Yeah. 35:52 EI: Yeah. Do you need to serve in army or something is there anything like that? 35:59 AA: No. 35:59 EI: No? You do not need to. 36:01 AA: No. 36:02 EI: Yeah, okay Good. Yeah, perfect. So, in the United States I mean another identity is Islam, Muslim as you said. So, did you have any difficulties here? 36:16 AA: No, not– 36:18 EI: In school, in college, in work, in your job, in your environment– 36:23 AA: Um. I mean if ever there was, it is not that they would come in person and say, if there ever it was they kept it inside they might tell somebody else but– 36:33 EI: Do you feel something? 36:35 AA: Very rarely. Um I am trying to think of it, any moment– 36:39 EI: Especially after like 9/11. 36:41 AA: No. I never really thought, just because the way I dress the way I act I think it is not like I dress with the Islamic traditional cloth or the way, I mean my English is not like, you can tell it is not I just came to the country or something like that. So, I think that helps. But um– 37:08 EI: If it was not, would it be difficult or? 37:14 AA: I think it might be, yeah, if I dressed up in Muslim clothes and I went to Walmart, I am sure people look at me differently than right now I am dressed up as it Nike or North Face in I wear Adidas and I just go the store, people look at me differently like I am dressed casual. I think dressing has a lot to do with it. And then um I think dressing has a big impact on it and you know just the style of my hair or stuff like that. 37:44 EI: But for example, in school or something when you said like I am Muslim, it is not problem right? 37:48 AA: No. it was not a problem. Really was never a problem because I grew up in a school very diverse, you know it is very diverse. I mean probably white people are the minority in my school, you know it was like pretty, it was almost like that. But other schools I have heard stuff like that, especially in Nashville like the richer areas like in Brentwood because Nashville has about fifteen to twenty thousand Kurdish people. 38:16 EI: Oh, that much? 38:17 AA: Yeah, and they would say the richer school that is like a Republican state, Tennessee is and there is a lot, there is racist people there. And they would have a lot of problems over there. You know kids would get picked at because they were Muslim and stuff like that so in the South it happens a lot more and the North to be honest I cannot remember ever happening to me. 38:50 EI: Yeah, okay. Will you visit next time Kurdistan– 38:54 AA: Oh yeah, for sure. 38:55 EI: When? 38:57 AA: I have been over the last six years extremely busy with my school and work and stuff like that. 39:05 EI: You went in 2003 you said right? 39:07 AA: Yeah, in 2003. So, I mean I came back and I started college a couple years after that so– 39:11 EI: How was the physical conditions when you went there? 39:15 AA: What do you mean by that? The environment– 39:19 EI: I mean service sector, the buildings, the roads– 39:22 AA: I mean they were– 39:23 EI: It is now much better, right? Completely different. 39:25 AA: Yeah like, I mean over there when I use to go there, there is a couple areas I used to walk to the market you know, and I would walk to the market and for about half mile like to almost a mile on both sides was a rural, like it was not established it was just like dirt roads and stuff like that, and my sister was telling me now, telling me about that and she is like the whole mile is all store now, two three buildings, she is like if you go there you will not recognize it. And have like a Domino’s Pizza and they have a lot of like American restaurants, just to give you like the price of property, in that area you could probably buy a piece of a good amount for let us say ten thousand dollars, right now it would be worth a hundred twenty thousand dollars, same spot just ten different years you know so it is like you know I ‘ve known people who bought property for nine thousand dollars and they sold the property for ninety-five thousand like last year, I mean the economy is like it is going crazy over there. 40:38 EI: Do you think it will continue like that or? 40:42 AA: Personally, I have no idea– EI: Actually, it is oil rich country– 40:48 AA: Yeah, it is like Dubai, I mean Dubai climax too though, you know right now if you go to a lot of their buildings are empty you know the skyscrapers there is a lot of, and Dubai they were one worse hit you know, but so you never know when it is going to stop, it is going to eventually stop but it might not be for another ten or fifteen years, you know. 41:09 EI: Oh, not near future. 41:10 AA: I do not see it no. There is just so much money in the country right now. There is so much business and there is, it is really incredible. 41:16 EI: Is there any investment like factories or industry? 41:22 AA: See that is another problem, when we are talking about corruption I mean it is hard for normal person to go there let us say open up a factory without somebody else being like you have to give me 25 or 30 percent. That is one of the thing– that is one of the biggest things I do not like about it. And I mean I do not know I hope that changes because I am not going to go open up a factory if they take 30 percent for no reason, if they tell me okay, it is tax, I will be like you know, but that is a thing over here they do the same thing, you know if you have a multi-million company they take 40 percent from you, you know. They do that over here but over there they do not say it is for tax, they just say you have to give it to me so I think the people over there get upset you know, if they say it is for tax and this and that, maybe they work around it, that is what they do here, but over there they really do not have tax you know, so they just take it from the people, so it is like I do not want to do that. 42:22 EI: Yeah, oaky. Yeah, I hope they will all comment. Okay, so your relation with Americans is still same or still you are more integrated or hang out more with Kurds? 42:34 AA: I mean right now, I am not at a point if I would say 95 percent of my, the people I affiliate with are either Kurdish or like I got some Ukrainian friends or Bosnian friends, like rarely I do not really associate with any Americans to be honest. 42:53 EI: Will you marry with Americans? Is it possible? 42:57 AA: No. 42:57 EI: Why? 42:58 AA: No, I mean just one is religion, that is the number one thing. And then also to be honest it is culturally, we tend to like marry in our culture. 43:13 EI: It will be a Kurd. 43:14 AA: Yeah, it will be a Kurd. It is going to be a Muslim you know. But most likely like 95 percent it is going to be a Kurd if not, it has to be a Muslim. 43:32 EI: Okay, Yeah. Good. Thank you so much. It is almost forty-five minutes. 43:40 AA: I talk fast, so that is why. 43:42 EI: No that is fine. I mean uh- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Amin Amin