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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/27a7ecf6a9d427f5f7c17e3f3030cb59.pdf
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BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
State University of N ew York
A
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B . E B P A R T M
E N T
Binghamton University Orchestra
Concerto & Aria Competition 20078
Casadesus Recital Hall
7:00 p.m.
Sunday, November 18, 2007
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Bingha
mton U niversit
y Orchestra
C o nc e r t o & A r i a Co m p etitio n 200 7 8
Sunday, November 18. 2007
Casadesus Recital Hall
Division I W oodwinds, Brass & Percussion
Stephanie Lehman
Ney Rosauro: Marimba Concerto, mvts. 2 &4
Matthew Hassell
C.M. von Weber: Clarinet Concerto #2, mvt. 3
Diana Amari & Alexa Weinberg
P.H. Telemann : Suite in F Major for Two Horns
Mvts. 1,2 & 5
Erica Leo
Cecile Chaminade: Concertino for Flute
Division 3: Strings
Eris Chang: Viadla
Mozart: Concerto #3, G Major K. 216, m v t
Elizabeth Sterling, Violin
Lalo: Symphonie Espagnole, mvt 1
Sarah Sterling, Viola
Hindemith: Trauermusik
Griffin Sarg
8ent, Violin
fi
De Beriot. Scene de Ballet
Jennifer Chen, Cello
Bruch: Kol Nidrei
Nicole HsienYu Hsu
Division 4: K eyboards
Chopin: Concerto #2 in F minor, mvt I
R o bert M u l ler
arisennuuu"ttun“t“tuna“uuutnuuunuuuuu
Di visio n 2 V o c al
La Toya Lewis , Soprano
Bizet ’s ‘Carmen’: Micaela ‘s aria “Je dis...”
Audience:
Silence please – we are recording for the competitors.
Enter and Leave the Hall through the back door.only between competitors.
No talking or writing; Please, Silence all electronics!!
Jonathan M oots , Baritone
Thanks to our Judges, faculty and student participants.
F.J. Haydn: Horn Concerto # I in D. mvt. 1
Mozart: “Alcandro lo confesso ’ K 51 2
,
Sung Jin Park, Soprano
Donizetti/Don Pasquale: ‘Quel guardo il cavaliere '
Ariana Zbrzezny, Mezzosoprano
Rossini: ‘Cruda Sorte ’
Abigail Freeman, Soprano
Mozart: Vorrei spiegarvi, O Dio. K. 418
Intermission – ten minutes
The Winners ’ Concert with the University Orchestra will be Saturday evening,
March 1%, 2008 at 8:00 m
p in the Osterhout Theater.
e
�Coming
“Crents
Th u rsday, No vem ber 29 – MidDay Concert – 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus
Recital Hall – free
Friday, N ovem ber 30 – Flute Stud io Recital – 10:30 a.m. – Casadesus
Recital Hall – free
Satu rday, Decem ber 1 – Fl ute Ensem ble Recita l – 12 noo n – Casadesus
Recital Hall – free
Satu rday, Decem ber 1 – Reunion Recital : Aa ron Nicho lson, baritone
and Todd Robinson, bassba ritone – 8:00 p.m. – Anderson Center
Chamber Hall $1 5 general public; $13 faculty/staff/seniors; $7 students
Sunday, Decem ber 2 – U niversity O rchest ra : Sounds Behind the Celluloid
– 3:00 p.m . Anderson Center Concert Theater $9 general public; $7
faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
Tuesday, Decem ber 4 – Pe rcussion E nsemble – 8:00 p.m. Anderson Center
Chamber Hall – free
Th u rsday, Decem ber 6 – M idDay Co ncert – 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital
Hall – free
Thursday, Decem ber 6 – Ha rpu r Chorale and Wom en ’s Chorus – 8:00 p.m.
– Trinity Memorial Ch urch, Binghamton – free
Friday, December 7 – Singing Chinese – 7:00 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall –
free
Sunday, Decem ber 9 – W ind Sym phony – 7 :30 – Anderson Center Chamber
Hall – free
�
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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3 audio cassettes 3 audio discs
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1:14:00
57:47
45:08
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE196886">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE196886</a>
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Binghamton University Orchestra concerto and aria competition 2007-8, November 3, 2007
Recital Tape 11-18-2007
Description
An account of the resource
Held at 7:00 p.m., November 18, 2007, Casadesus Recital Hall. Works of Rosauro, Weber, Telemann, Chaminade, Haydn, Bizet, Mozart, Donizetti, Rossini, Lalo, Hindemith, Beriot, Bruch, Chopin.
Creator
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Lehman, Stephanie
Hassell, Matthew
Amari, Diana
Weinberg, Alexa
Leo, Erica
Muller, Rob
Lewis, LaToya
Moots, Jonathan
Park, Sung-Jin
Zbrzezny, Ariana
Freeman, Abigail
Chang, Erin
Sterling, Elizabeth
Sterling, Sarah
Sargent, Griffin
Chen, Jennifer
Hsien-Yu Hsu, Nicole
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2007-11-18
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In copyright
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sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
dfde5906-934f-4f59-8040-ee5438fe7a24
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48dc3521a08a7081264f0c89eb45f8e5
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7834a42ac41cd495dd8afd4f66a0d4fa.MP3
5c356abfdd34f052f109147af336991a
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
19 November 2019
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Joseph Lewis
Duration
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1:31:26
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
Joseph Lewis, originally from Massillon, Ohio, is a survivor of the Kent State shootings. Lewis was an 18-year-old freshman, studying pre-professional social work when he was shot while attending the student protest rally in 1970. He quit school in 1972 and moved to Oregon, where he has resided ever since. Lewis retired from the Scappoose, Oregon Public Works Department in 2013 as supervisor of the water treatment plant. He also served 16 years on the Scappoose Board of Education.
Keywords
Cleveland; Boomer generation; Civil Rights Movement; 1960s; Woodstock generation; College campus; President Nixon; Vietnam War; Student activism; Kent State shooting; Trust.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Joseph Lewis
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger and Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 2 December 2021
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:01
All right. My first question, Joe, is where did you grow up, and what were your parents’ careers and backgrounds in your early years? And when you talk about this, also describe your elementary and high school years.
JL: 00:18
Okay, that is a good question. I grew up on the near west side of Cleveland. I think a part of town used to be called the old Brooklyn. It is where the Christmas story is set kind of
SM: 00:32
Oh, that one.
JL: 00:33
[inaudible] from long ago. And, and I grew up I went to the elementary schools in Cleveland from the from kindergarten to the fourth grade, and I will name the schools and you will, you will see commonality I went to kindergarten at St. Mary's kindergarten. And I went to first to fourth grade in Cleveland that Our Lady of Good Counsel school, and then we moved just outside of Parma, Ohio, and I went to fourth to eighth grade at St. Francis de Sales school. And then my family moved to Massillon, Ohio, just 50 miles south of Cleveland, because my dad was a traveling salesman, and that was more centrally located because sales area, where I enrolled at Central Catholic High School in Canton. So, you will see the commonality there. I went to all parochial schools, as did all my brothers and sisters. I was the oldest of eight kids, seven who survive. And my dad, my dad was a salesman for a couple of different lumber wholesalers, United States plywood, and then later warehouse. And my mom was a homemaker, you know, in those days, you could get by with one income.
SM: 01:57
Right. During those first- do you want to add anything more?
JL: 02:06
Always. But go ahead. [laughs]
SM: 02:08
During, the question? I think you are a Catholic then, right. [laughter]
JL: 02:13
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that is true.
SM: 02:17
During those-
JL: 02:19
Good deduction. [laughter]
SM: 02:21
I can put two and two together there. During your first 18 years of life, did you identify with your generation called Boomer, I mean-
JL: 02:34
Oh, I am so stereotypically boomer. I mean, I was a boy scout, an altar boy. I was a kind of a goody, goody, I did not, I did not challenge too many of the rules in those days. So, it was like the Eisenhower era, you know, and things were- it was post-war, booming as they say and, and everything was-was kind of like growing. And I was very stereotypical of the era, I would think.
SM: 03:06
Did you did you in your neighborhood, at your schools, your parents’ friends, were a lot of the parents World War Two veterans and if they were, did you ever, did they ever talk about World War Two?
JL: 03:21
I grew up on the, when I was on the near west side our-our community was a lot of immigrants from different parts of the world. We had, on my street we had, my grandparents came from Slovakia, my maternal grandparents. So, there were Slovak people. There were Polish people. There were Italian people. There were Puerto Rican people, and German people all on our street. And so, I do not remember too much of the parents discussing World War Two. And I think that my parents were a little bit younger. They were too young for World War Two and too old for Korea. My dad, he was born in (19)30. So-so he himself was not, was not a Vet. And I do not remember too much discussion about it. Although you remember the, I assume you are a boomer too?
SM: 04:20
Oh, yeah. I am front edge.
JL: 04:22
Remember, remember our entertainment was all about I mean, World War Two movies and heroism: and patriotism: was-was all over the entertainment world at that time. But as far as the discussion of World War Two Vets, I did not I did not get exposed to that too much. Now, my grandfather lost a brother in World War Two. And, and he would, you know, they call it cursing. But what it really is-is when cursing is really when you invoke the names of the dead. When he would get really-really mad, he would say, "Oh, for the love of Mike" and that would be his brother who was killed in the war.
SM: 04:59
Wow, yeah. Yeah, I grew up in, in a community where there were a lot of vets, but they never talked about the war, it was nothing, it was just raising-
JL: 05:08
Yeah.
SM: 05:09
-a family going to work. Mom was at home taking care of the kids, dad was out making the money. So that is kind of that happened to a lot.
JL: 05:17
Yeah.
SM: 05:18
You know, as far as you know, the boomers themselves, you know, you have you lived long enough now to be a young boomer and an older boomer. When you were young through say, 40, what were some of the qualities that you admired in your, in your generation, when they were younger? Especially the front edge boomers that were born between (19)46 and say, (19)57, because boomers go up to (19)64?
JL: 05:46
Well, you know, I do not know, if I really reflected on-on that, that much. I am proud of the things that, that our generation has-has done, I think that we brought attention to the environment and, and to war policies and, and to treatment of minorities. You know, and we, of course, I think what impressed me most was the was the Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King was the greatest American of my lifetime. And, and the effort he led to you, get equality for all, I think, is what-what I am kind of most focused on as a positive of our time here and in the USA. And there were struggles, you know, it was a struggle of the new the new appreciation of what was real and who was being treated fairly and who was not.
SM: 06:50
Yeah, it is interesting, because when we were young boomers, there was a summer of (19)64, which is when all those young people, a lot of African Americans, but a lot of white Americans who went down the south to try to get African Americans to vote, and risked their lives in doing so. And that was in (19)64. So, and that was-
JL: 07:11
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 07:11
-right at the time when we were in high school.
JL: 07:15
Right.
SM: 07:16
So, there was a lot of that, that that happening as well. And, and, you know, there was a lot of books being written now on the boomer generation, because we were now the oldest generation- can you believe it? It is hard to believe that this generation that, you know, when they were young thought they would probably never grow old. But when you reflect on this whole generation, as a whole now as a person, and probably in your early 70s, what are, did they succeed? Or did they fail in their kind of their, you know, when we talk about the protest movement, and talking about the-the amount of activists that were probably only about 7 or 8 percent, of the 74 million, who are truly activists in their lifetime. But when you look at that, their accomplishments over time, there is a lot of commentary now, some say they were, they were no different than any other generation, what made them different, in your view?
JL: 08:14
Well, the unique opportunity. I think we had to, to live in a country at a time when it was booming economically and when there was a great growth of free time. And we-we did not have to struggle just to stay alive. So, we could experiment with thoughts, ideas and practices that before were not, I do not think they were within the reach of, of people, some of the things that we had the opportunity to do like travel and, and just experiment with different ways of thinking in organizations. And I think we benefited from, from the relative peace after World War Two that allowed us, allowed our families to thrive. And give us give us stability you know, in our, in our daily lives. I think that, I think that in many ways we-we did succeed and opening, opening the discussion for like, we talked about the Civil Rights Movement and the environmental movement, American Indian Movement, anti-war movement, and I mean, those were struggles that are more, I would say more or less successful at least in drawing attention to the problems- not in solving them, but at least in pointing them out is an important thing I think.
SM: 09:52
You raise something very important, Joe and then it is, you know what, when you are, we had time to be able to discuss these things with our peers, with their teachers with even our parents. And, and so it is like the sense of kind of, we were around people who talked like we did about the things we cared about- civil rights, ending the war, whatever, as a kind of sense of community. There was a sense of some sort of a community, which is also often times divide, it is part of a quality of being an activist.
JL: 10:31
Yeah, I, you know, well, my sense of community is, I mean, I am the oldest of eight. And so, I tend to be an extrovert and kind of a bossy to brothers anyway, so I had a lot of networking in high school, and I had the friends in all different kinds of groups and, and people who thought like me, and people who did not think like me. But eventually going to college for a while, and then and then kind of, kind of identifying with like, the anti-war movement and cultural, certain cultural appreciations, focused my-my group identity even more, and so. So, in a way that is good, in a way it is bad and the way it is good is that I did get great discussions about ideas, and feelings and sentiments that I had. But it also, we see from the developments recently with the Facebook algo- algorithms and things that it, kind of is an isolating in a way to be around people who think like you.
SM: 11:43
It is true.
JL: 11:45
So-so I had both of those effects. But yeah, I definitely felt a sense of community and in those heady days of (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, when it seemed like, you know, the Woodstock generation. I mean, it seems a far cry to say the boomers are the same as the Woodstock generation, but I guess we are and, and it seemed like there was a change on the horizon for the better. And it was just about to flip to where appreciations would be modified away from profit and more for the, you know, the desire to do right and be good and fair. And just and.
SM: 12:33
Did you-
JL: 12:33
I think there was a part of the community I recognized.
SM: 12:36
Yeah, did you feel, yes, you personally, you are, you are a young person. This is I am feeling [inaudible] myself here, too. I felt, it was great to be young. I cannot explain it.
JL: 12:47
Oh, yeah.
SM: 12:47
Yeah, I could be. I could be on a bus. And I would see a beautiful girl or a woman and she was part of my generation. I could I could go over and talk to her. And I did, [inaudible]. But I could talk to her. I felt good. I mean, there was I felt good about myself. And my generation.
JL: 13:07
Yeah, you know, there was a commonality. I mean, if your hair was a little bit long, or if you had on, if you have on bell bottom pants, or beads or something, you had identifiers that kind of gave away some of your thinking.
SM: 13:24
Right.
JL: 13:25
Which meant-meant you were thinking like me. So, there was like an automatic network evolved for based on sight clues, I guess you would say.
SM: 13:36
If you have any, you know, there was a talk back then about what they call the generation gap. There is, in fact, one of my individuals I interviewed wrote the book on the generation gap and his father and person he worked for- was there a generation gap in your family?
JL: 13:53
Oh, definitely was, yeah, definitely was. My dad was, I think, voted for Nixon, at least once. And, and he was, he was not a powerfully strong conservative, but he you know, was, was a, this was the time, and I do not need to tell you, before Watergate. So, before Watergate, the people did not question what the government said as to being truthful or not. And so, there was I think there was an [inaudible]- and I did, I questioned the truth of the reports going back from Vietnam about how hard we were winning that war and, and our purposes for being there and so forth. And so, we did have a generation gap, my dad, after I was shot at Kent State, he assumed that I had done something wrong, which in fact, I did not. I mean, I-I did give some men with the rifle a finger, which is a bad idea, but it is not a crime. And it took some convincing for him to, to get to that way of thinking. So, we did have a bit of a generation gap and, and I mean I was his first, his first child and it is challenging one I am so sorry dad, rest in peace.
SM: 15:20
Well, I am going right now to your undergraduate school. Why did you pick Kent State to go there as your undergraduate?
JL: 15:28
Well-well, I will finish my I finished my, my monologue about the different schools I attended. And I will tell you the colleges I applied to. When I was a junior in high school, I started to apply to colleges. And I applied to Gonzaga University in Spokane. Xavier University in Cincinnati, St. Louis, Washington University in St. Louis, Notre Dame in South Bend, and Kent State, all of them being Catholic schools, except for Kansas State. And I had good SAT scores, I was accepted to all of them. But I could not afford them because I was paying my own way and working full time and going to school full time. So, I actually applied for and received a partial award to go to Notre Dame from the Rocco foundation in Canton, Ohio, but it was still not within my means to attend Notre Dame. So, I wound up going to State University, Kent State, which in those days was unbelievably affordable, unbelievably affordable.
SM: 16:45
Could you describe your college years, I am going to certainly get into the May 4th situation?
JL: 16:52
Yeah.
SM: 16:52
-but could you describe your college years at Kent State both before and after, I do not know how to say this, before and after April 30th, to May 4th, 1970?
JL: 17:06
Oh, yeah. Well, for me that is a college year. [laughs]
SM: 17:11
Yeah.
JL: 17:12
I started school in September of (19)69 at Kent State, and that was a month after Woodstock. And you know, it was a few months before the assassination of Black Panthers in the apartment in Chicago. It was after the Beatles broke up but so going to, I got into the dormitory, Johnson Hall. And it was, as I said, I was the oldest child in my family. And so, I have done my share of babysitting and kid watching and it was the ultimate freedom to be free from my-my parents' home not that they were ever, it was ever a bad home. But I had to, you know time to come and go at the times I chose and of course, I had to do my own laundry. But I had a meal plan and two roommates in the dorm room where I lived and I was just really free to experiment with life and learning. And I loved learning. I was taking biology and French and anthropology and English in lots of different, you know, curious, and sociology was my major. And I just loved learning but I also loved freedom so that in the spring of spring of (19)70, in March, my friend and I hitchhiked around the East Coast, we-we hitchhiked down to see his cousin in Kentucky and his cousin was on spring break. So, we went on down to Georgia. We hitchhiked you know, back and forth and different places and visiting friends in Ohio and elsewhere. And it was just an enormous, enormous glory of freedom. And the, one of the things I remember most is walking around the campus that fall and the music coming out of the windows- people you know, were free now from their parents' strictures of "Turn that thing down" like I was. And then there was there was high volume music coming out of every dorm window. It was like, it was like the new bands were Led Zeppelin, Crosby, Stills and Nash, you know, McCartney's solo album, the Dead, the Stones, you know, the Beatles, a whole anthology, it was amazing. I mean, and just think, you know, to think the first time you heard Led Zeppelin blasting out of a dorm room window as you walked along, you know, it was just-just to transportive to a whole different, you know, like, this is our time now.
SM: 19:54
Yes.
JL: 19:55
Rock and roll was blasting and it was it was exciting. It was very exciting. I, you know, I did, I had tried smoking a little weed and taking a little psychedelic and, and, you know, that was, that was also added a twist of interest to things and drinking, you know, drinking the three-two beer that was available [crosstalk]. Geez. So, there was lots, of lots of new things, you know, and then the relationships with, with both guys and girls. I was making friends from with people from all over the country, meeting beautiful girls from all over the, over the country. And, you know, it was just a vibrant, exciting time. And it seemed very hopeful and the future was full of prospects. Because, you know, if you had a college degree in the (19)70s, you were going to get a job somewhere and hopefully doing something you liked. And I was exploring different, different courses. And I really liked anthropology. But mostly, like I said, my major was pre-professional social work. I wanted to do something to change the world for the better. I guess that was my goal.
SM: 21:13
Yeah, you said when you when you look at Kansas State when you first got there, did you think that was more of a tranquil campus before (19)70 or did you sense that it was an activist campus from the get go?
JL: 21:26
I knew that there had been some political activity there. But that was not really what the focus was on. In fact, I remember very clearly my, my freshman orientation the summer before I went to school there, they, they were quick, quick to point out that there were 28 bars in five blocks. And that there was live music, live music almost every night and every weekend and [inaudible] and the ratio of girls to boys at Kent State was two to one. And people came from all over northeastern Ohio for the nightlife scenes on the weekends. I mean, the James Gang, Joe Walsh was the house band-
SM: 22:05
Oh yeah.
JL: 22:06
-and local bars and, and there was other, you know, musicians would come through Kent and have shown there that were fantastic. So, the activism: was not the first thing that that that anyone thought of at that time. Although I really had not been tuned in to some of the Black United Students activities-
SM: 22:26
Right.
JL: 22:26
-and the occupation of the music and speech. I did not. I maybe had read about it, but did not focus in on it so much.
SM: 22:34
You know, it is interesting, because the history books I have written this for a years when they talk about the tragedy, I as we all say, as they all need to say, the murderers at Kent State and-and-
JL: 22:47
Yeah, absolutely.
SM: 22:47
-so, I have been corrected to make sure that not the tragedy, more the murderers at Kent State. But the word on the street and on many of the history books that have been written is why did this happen, why did this tragedy happen of all places at Kent State? Why not Ohio State, why not Ohio University, which was at the time I worked there. Was one of the most liberal campuses, where massive protests were taking place or a place like Columbia, or Berkeley or even Harvard or Wisconsin, but four were killed at Kent State and the perception was in the media coverage is this tranquil campus in the Midwest.
JL: 23:28
Yeah.
SM: 23:28
You know, that it happened there so now the war came home to America. Your just, your thoughts on that?
JL: 23:36
Well, that is, that is kind of a hard to analyze, given what happened there after all, but there was a real town and gown division in I think, a lot of college towns and that was certainly true at Kent, we had, you know, old time farmers, farmland all around the town and, and there was definitely a difference in opinion between the people who lived in Canton, families had lived there for a long time and the students who had come from all over the northeastern United States to attend there. But I think that one source for good background is Tom Grace's book which talked about the history of Northeastern Ohio and he-
SM: 24:23
Yes.
JL: 24:23
-he reminds us of some things we kind of forgot about. My grandfather who came from Slovakia, got a job in Republic steel mills and worked his whole life I mean, in the steel mills as a union steel worker and Akron had both Goodrich and Goodyear Tire and Rubber, the rubber capital of the world and in Pittsburgh and Youngstown all had steel mills and steel manufacturing plants. And it was it was a place where there was, there were many working people who had been organized into unions and who had learned how to-to speak for their own rights and stand up to the to the bosses and ask for fair wages. And so, there was a background of political activity. It was not exactly antiwar activity, and it was not necessarily student activity. But this area was booming, it was just going through a huge, a huge growth, you know, of employment and workers and families rising from rising from the lowest level of working class up into some kind of middle-class comfort, buying homes in the suburbs. And-and I think, you know, I do not know if that explains anything, but what the situation was very dynamic there.
SM: 25:45
Yeah, I have read that book. And, and I will be, I will be interviewing him as well, in the next couple of weeks.
JL: 25:52
Good, [crosstalk]
SM: 25:52
Because he has agreed to be interviewed. He is very busy, I think helping with Alan's archives and other and other things and speaking, and he is a professor, so he has got a lot on his on his table.
JL: 26:04
Yes, he does.
SM: 26:04
Yeah, you know, the whole thing of what created the tension, you were not easy to describe some of the things there because the town gown relations are terrible, even at the school that I went to here in Binghamton, New York. It was terrible. And that, what would you say, created the tension at Kent State leading up to Nixon's speech on April 30th, of (19)70? Because as a nation, not only at Kent State, but Ohio State where I went to grad school, I know what happened on that campus. The campuses erupted after that speech. Did you hear this speech?
JL: 26:42
Yes, I well, I did not actually hear it. I read about it on a ticker tape machine at Taylor Hall on Kent State campus. I do not know, you probably know what a ticker tape machine is.
SM: 26:54
Yes.
JL: 26:54
Some folks, may not [laughter] and, and I read it as it was news that night, April 30th, 11 or something that night, I was walking around with my girlfriend and we were in Taylor Hall. And read that news there for the you know, when it was still hot off the presses. And then you know, saw the follow up on the in the TV evening news and news the next day. And the reaction around the country of the expansion of the war where Nixon, I blamed President Nixon and Governor Rhodes for the murders at Kent State because they set the scene. Nixon said that he would bring us together and had a secret plan to end the war and he was just lying to get elected and to hold on to power and the same thing was happening with Governor, Governor Rhodes who after the RTC building was burned, he made a huge, huge speech, inflammatory speech with the with the guard already present on the on the university campus, about the terrible terrorists who were organized and behind this, which was hyperbolic to say the least. He was really giving the-the antiwar movement a lot more credibility than it deserved at the time for their organization, their ability to create violent resistance and, and I think they painted a picture that was far more dire than was necessary at the time and resulted in the overreaction, and murder and wounding of students at Kent State and other places, in Jackson State around the country.
SM: 28:39
In your own words, because it is very important that that I do interview all the people that are still alive that were wounded at Kent State, I am actually going to be interviewing a person who was a professor at Westchester who was a student at Kent State and she was witnessing everything from her residence hall right next to the, where the it all happened. But when you, if you could describe in your own words, you. What you were doing between the 30th of April and May 5th, the day after the tra- the killings happened, just in your own words. What you saw, witnessed, experienced, were involved in, people students you spoke to, what, how did all those students come to that, the green by the bell? Because people that are going to be hearing your interview are people that are not even alive yet. They are going to be studying and doing your research on the (19)60s and Kent State is a watershed event in that era.
JL: 29:50
Well, on the Commons at Kent State there is what they called the victory bell which was supposed to be used for athletic victories but it was more commonly in those days used to-to call crowds together for assemblies. And-and so for the period that you are talking about from the time of the Cambodian incursion, until May 5th, I was not present for Friday demonstration of burying the Constitution because they said Nixon had killed the Constitution. I did not witness that but I read about it in the campus paper later. And they said that they were planning a follow up demonstration for Monday afternoon. And so, I read about that, but had not really thought much more than that about it. And Saturday, I also watched from my dorm room, which is Johnson Hall, which is immediately adjacent to the commons and Taylor Hall and the pagoda. And I watched as some, crowd assembled around the ROTC building, which there had been rumors that it would be targeted because of the presence on campus as a as a, you know, as a supporter of the war, of the war in Vietnam. And so, I went outside of my dorm and watched from the grass in front of the dorm, from a distance as some people kind of attempted to set the building on fire, unsuccessfully, several times. And they threw a safety flare on the roof and it rolled off without doing anything and they broke a window and, and lit drapes on fire and it flamed up and burned out. And then somebody in the front of the crowd- I do not know who, it was dark, and I did not know people. Somebody said, "Let us go get some more supporters." And so, the crowd marched around the whole campus, which is pretty large. And so that took, you know, 45 minutes or so. And we, I followed along behind the crowd. And we marched around the campus to a couple of the other dormitories asking people to join us and then forward to the front of the campus, past the president of the university's house, which was a well-guarded by people at the driveway and out onto the highway that connected Ravenna and Kent, and actually stopped and stopped traffic and people in the front of the crowd were blocking traffic with, they pull like construction equipment out onto the road and blocked traffic and compressors and trailers and stuff. And then people will shortly behind them would move them back out of the way. It was kind of like we do not want to really cause that much disruption. And I followed along behind and watched this happen until we got back to the front of the campus and we started to turn and go back towards my dormitory basically, which is back towards the ROTC building. And as we turned and headed back onto campus, that is when the Ohio National Guard arrived from the east, from Ravenna in trucks and jeeps and-and armored personnel carriers. So, they came rolling down the highway. And so, I turned in hightailed it back to my dormitory. And when I got there, that building was fully engulfed in flames, which I always thought was suspicious since it seemed like the attempts to ignite it previously had been unsuccessful. So, the so I went to my dorm and my-my dorm window faced the other ways. So, I went across the hall, to my friend Tom's room, and we watched out his window as the ROTC building went up in flames and burned and, and I know it is super cliché, but I have to say that while this was happening, the radio station from Cleveland, I think it was WMS was playing for what it is worth, you know, "Something is Happening Here."
SM: 34:07
Wow.
JL: 34:07
This building is just flaming up and I am thinking, wow, what-what the hell you know. And so, the next day, Sunday there was, the guards who had arrived on campus that night, Saturday after the building was burned. 900 members of the Ohio National Guard were bivouacked on the Kent State campus. And they were positioned in front of the different administration buildings and different places around campus. But it was a fairly nice spring morning in northeastern Ohio, it can be pretty that time of year and-and so students and Co-eds and people were walking around having conversations with the guardsmen who were in you know, their-their steel helmets with-with their rifles and bayonets fixed on the end. And it was just a very, very bizarre to be occupied by your own army, is how it felt and-and it was very much a feeling of the war has come home. You know here-here you are at school and here are these people ready for war and so-so Sunday was just a real mix of strange feelings until the governor came to the came to the firehouse in Kent and made the most inflammatory speech, banged his fist on the table, talking about the worst people in American history of being present here, these organized student rebels and-and he gave, like I say he gave the antiwar organization a lot more credit than I thought it deserved for being effective and organized and bloodthirsty. It was not, there was not any of the way he described it that way. But I think that the guardsmen were inspired by his hatred. And there was also a rip came down that there would be no assemblies allowed of four or more people. And that the National Guard will be breaking up any assemblies of groups of people. But they also said that Monday there would be classes as usual. So, you have quite an irony there when you are having students go to classes and guardsmen breaking up you know, groups of four. Well, Sunday I, I was on, I stayed in the dorm area. But friends of mine went down to protest against the curfew. And it was a 10 o'clock curfew in the streets of Kent and 11 o'clock on the campus if I am not mistaken. And some friends of mine went to go talk to the university president and the mayor about lifting the curfew so that we could you know, go about our schooling business. And nobody ever came to talk to them, although they were promised that they would, they just sat down in the street and said, you know, wait here, we will get them to speak to you which they never did come but after the curfew time arrived, the National Guard who had surrounded these demonstrators who are peacefully sitting in the street and singing songs of the era, at a curfew time, they surrounded them and started lobbing tear gas into the group. And so, there was pandemonium, I am told and students ran and some were bayonetted that night and others were chased and beaten. And it was from my view at the dorm, it was one of the scariest sights I have seen where there were helicopters, three helicopters with search lights, hovering overhead and [crosstalk] tear gas on the campus with platoons of guardsmen shoulder to shoulder, bayonets at the ready, herding students into dormitories because they were out past curfew. And I spoke later that night with my-my resident counselor Lou, who said that he had witnessed, he was trying to conduct students to come in the end of our, of our dorm and escape the guardsmen, and they can go through the building and out the other way to their dorms. And as he got the last student, in the guardsmen behind him lunged with his bayonet and he, Luke pulled the door shut on the guy's knife, as he lunged to try and get the students and so it was a very ugly scene.
SM: 38:34
Wow.
JL: 38:35
And he and I stayed up talking that night for a while and discussed whether or not those guns would be loaded with live ammunition. And we have kind of concluded there was really no need for them to be loaded with live ammunition. And I do not know if we suggested they had blanks, or why we would think that but we were pretty sure there was no need for live ammunition in those guns. But we also said it was hard to tell who was wearing the white hats and who was wearing the black hats because while students were throwing things out their windows at the dorms at the guardsmen, the guardsmen were also throwing rocks at the students' windows in the dormitories and-and it was it was just real ugly, it was a real ugly scene that night. So, Monday was classes as usual, with guardsmen all along the burned-out ashes of ROTC building. And I went to a couple of classes actually and the sociology professors and two messages one was the "Keep safe, stay low and stay out of sight" and the other was, "It is a participatory democracy and if you want your voice heard you need to get out there and do it" and I, I kind of took a second tack I wanted to support the-the protest, protesting the presence of an invasion and occupation of our campus by-
SM: 39:56
Yes.
JL: 39:56
-the National Guard. But I wanted to do it in a peaceful way, you know, the way Martin Luther King showed us and the way Mahatma Gandhi showed us that, you know, collective action peaceably with a large number of people can get can get results. And so, I was headed for, I kind of think of it now as a, I was headed for some kind of street theater demonstration, but the National Guard were coming to war. And so, this was not going to be a good, good, good mix. And then, so I watched, I watched the National Guard, you know, tried to tell the students to disperse. And they said, "Students this is illegal assembly, return to your dormitories." And they said that a few times with more cat calls and more upraised fingers, and-and finally, when the students did not disperse upon the command, they fired tear gas into the crowd, from far distance with like, like, like a grenade launch modified rifles that would shoot across 100 yards. And the wind was such that it was not very effective. So, students could get wet cloths over their mouths, pick up the tear gas canisters and throw them back. And it was it was a back and forth that seemed almost theatrical, at this point, without a sense of doom, which was a mistake on my part, definitely a mistake. And so, when that did not disperse the crowd, they moved forward with their tear gas masks and helmets and bayonets at the ready and split the crowd up that way. And so, I of course, retreated between Taylor Hall and Johnson Hall, which is my dorm. I mean, I was never more than 50 yards from my room actually. I retreated between the two buildings and off to one side and the guardsmen followed up the hill and down on the other side onto the practice football field. And then myself and the students near me reassembled on the hilltop by Taylor Hall overlooking the guardsmen and then watched them take a kneel, and aim their weapons at a vocal part of the crowd, towards the Prentice Hall parking lot where Alan Canfora was with his black flag. And where other activists were yelling at them, and some people threw gravel at them. You know, there was a big deal about throwing rocks, well, they were not rocks, they were gravel, and no guardsmen were injured. But I think it irritated the guardsmen. And that was the part of the crowd where most of the dead were later on. And so, after they kneeled and aimed for a while, a small group of guardsmen gathered in the middle of the field, and then they headed back up the hill the way they had come. And so, what this meant was, they turned and walked directly towards me because of where I had moved to, after they passed by. And so, I of course, moved out of the way again, but I was very near to them. And I could see them jostling, hear their equipment, kind of rattling as it came up the hill. And they kept looking hard back over their right shoulders, which was back in the Prentice Hall parking lot area. And I have always suspected that they were picking targets at this point. And so, when they got to the top of the hill, they were very close to me, kind of right in front of me. And the first three riflemen, turned and leveled their rifles in my direction, as they had knelt and aimed previously down below. And so, I thought this was, again, a gesture of, you know, of a threatening gesture. And so, I gesture back at that time with my middle finger, my right hand up raised, and they had their guns aimed at me. And, you know, I thought it was kind of a theatrical stand up as I, as I said, I came, I came ready for street theater, but they came ready for war. And so, it was not too long, a few seconds passed. And then I saw the ground and I heard, started hearing sounds popping, saw the ground in front of me turn up and I realized that there was actual live ammo in those guns. And simultaneously to that thought I was shot. The bullet hit my right hip, and threw me to the ground where I collapsed on the ground on my back. And I learned later that a second person shot me after I had been on the ground through the lower left leg. And so, as I lay on the ground, there was 13 seconds of solid gunfire. And then it stopped and there was just a heartbeat of unbelievable silence. Before people started screaming about what had happened and what they had just seen. I was laying there and a person, persons came up to me, a person came up to my left. And it turned out to be a brother of a high school classmate of mine. He saw my ID and put it back in my pocket. And then I asked him how bad the wound was. And he said, I think it is just a flesh wound. Because he had seen the exit wound in my left jeans pocket where the bullet exited. I had an entry wound, I had an entry wound to my right front pocket like where your coin change pocket is in your jeans, that was the size of a nickel. And I had an exit wound on my left rear jeans pocket the size of a Coke can.
SM: 45:48
Wow.
JL: 45:49
And when he saw he said it was a flesh wound, I was relieved, although there, that was not really true. I could not get up, and I could not, I could not move. And then a girl came from my right side and held my hand and I just squeezed the heck out of that girl's hand and she stayed with me the whole time until the ambulances came and loaded two of us into an ambulance. I was in an ambulance with John Cleary. John was shot through the lungs, apparently, and he was in terrible agony. It was a very, very difficult ride to ambulance, we, we both were very uncomfortable, I thought I was going to die. I said, as I said, you know, all the Catholic training that I had, I said a good act of contrition, asking God to forgive me for my sins. And, and I kind of thought, you know, I am only 18 I really have not committed, done too many things wrong. But just in case. Just in case, I said that prayer and got into the ambulance, got over to the hospital. And amazingly, I was semi-conscious this whole time. Even seeing high school classmates come up to the ambulance window and give me that high wave. But when I got to the hospital, the last thing, I remember, and it is comical. I love my mom and she was very strict with eight kids, you got to be strict. I got to the hospital, they said we were going to have to cut off your clothes. And I remember thinking to myself, my very last thought was, Mom was not going to like that. And then I went into, went into surgery for six hours and got several pints of blood. Went the intensive care for, unit for a week or so, the first couple of days I was 50/50 live or die I got the last rites night. Some of my friends from high school came and visited me I do not know somehow, they found me and I do not remember that but in our 50th reunion last in 2020, became an, retold me the story and it was it was very moving to hear from these seventy-year-old people about what moved them most of them were 18 and it was very touching. And I was in the hospital with Dean and John Cleary, we were all tall, I was the shortest one at 6'3" so our feet stuck out of the ends of the ICU beds. And we got to [inaudible] and friends forever. Then after a three weeks and a day, I got out of the hospital and went back to my parents’ home in Maslen and shortly thereafter read an article in the newspaper, the local Maslen evening independent which said that it had a story about the Kent State shootings and I thought well this this should be interesting so I read it and it said that students attacked guardsmen with bricks and bottles and overturned cars. And none of that was true. Not a word of that was true. And I thought, oh my god, you know my parents’ friends my neighbors here in Maslin. They think that is what is real? So-so for me the takeaway was you know, you cannot believe the media or the government. When it suits them, they are going to lie? So, I-I recovered at home, I did not really have too many long-lasting injuries although I do have to say that I have had my right hip replaced three times which is right near the in the entry wound of that 30-caliber rifle bullet. There has been no actual medical connection made between it but I suspected that it is connected. And then the story goes on, trying to get, trying to get accountability with Arthur Krause and the parents of those four kids dead. We tried to get accountability. And, and, and that was a tough climb because the first, the first legal gathering was the Portage County grand jury which indicted 25 students and professors and no guardsmen. In fact, I was, I was shot twice, and then I was arrested. I was indicted for fourth degree riot by the Portage County grand jury and later the charges were dropped for lack of evidence, but it gave me an understanding of what some people in America experience where they were victims of what was called Law Enforcement crime, and then they were charged with the crime themselves. So, I have a deep sympathy for, you know, for Breonna Taylor and-
SM: 49:30
Yeah. Yes.
JL: 51:09
-Michael Brown, you know, George Floyd, because to me, this is this is a story I have had a deep insight into.
SM: 51:19
When, I want to mention the bond, did you know any of the people that were wounded with you or killed before this this murder?
JL: 51:34
I did not, I did not know anyone. The only person I had a passing acquaintance with-with was Alison Krauss. Because she was the girlfriend of my mailbox partner in my dorm. Barry Levine, our-our names were alphabetical [audio cuts] box at the dorm. And so, I would see Allison and Barry almost every day and-and what I will say about Allison is she was attractive in every way. Vivacious, and smart and beautiful and involved and just really, really struck me as a beautiful person. But I did not know any others until we got together for different legal purposes years later.
SM: 52:24
Can you describe the, I guess the one thing, I have learned something from this interview? I know you were wounded. I did not know the seriousness of your wounds. As you go over the years, Joe, have you, have you had any flashbacks, do you had on that day? How has your mental and physical health been over the years?
JL: 52:49
You know, I do not really have flashbacks, like nightmares. I and I do not know, I have spoken with ant-war vets over the years a number of times. And a couple of times they pointed at me and said "PTSD!" because they've seen me cry when I talk about the incident. And-and of course I have I have huge reservoirs of emotion for the sorrow that I feel. Now that I am a parent and a grandparent for those families who lost, Allison and Jeff, Sandy and Bill that day, for no good reason. They did not do anything wrong. And-and so that that, to me is heartbreaking. But I do have, you know, very close bonds with the other families, the other eight guys who were wounded- well there was only, I think six of us left now but yeah, so I do not. As far as physical results, I think that my problems with my right hip may be related to my injuries there. And mentally, like I said, like, I do not believe the government or the media.
SM: 54:09
Right.
JL: 54:10
But I am not alone in that respect. I know.
SM: 54:14
When you, I want to flash back now. Now, obviously you went back to school, when did you go back to school to continue your education and when did you graduate?
JL: 54:28
I went back to school, and I think it was the winter of (19)71. But I never finished, I left. I was I was trying to go to school full time and work full time. I was under, under indictment waiting for trial. And I was self-medicating. And so, it was not a good, was not a good mix. It was not successful for me I-I managed to stay in school and work until the summer of (19)72. And so that was really just like a couple quarters more. And then I-I moved from Kent to Oregon where I am now.
SM: 55:17
Did you realize, you probably did the-the massive coverage of this of the murders that took place the following week, you and I- we were talking about the impact it has had on the people who were there, the students that were alive at Kent at that time, the families and so forth. Are you aware of the impact that this event had on college students and people all over the country like yours truly? The tragedy-?
JL: 55:48
Yes-yes, yes. The largest student strike in American history. And, and I know, and I know that it was a formidable time, I mean, you know, it to me, to me, of course, is much more personal. But frequently in historical movies or, or stories, or even just, you know, magazine articles, the Kent State shooting comes up as a pivotal reflection of the time and the desperation and just the, the peak of resistance to the war.
SM: 56:23
A lot of people that have written, that have written about this event, and then actually in books, too, that said that, when the tragedies at Kent State and Jackson State hit, that, then the War at Vietnam now came home to Middle America.
JL: 56:41
Right.
SM: 56:42
And that the war was going to end because of it. The a, and because there was still at that time, a lot of people that supported the war. And Nixon always had his group that, you know that, you know that they were supporting him. But it is what happened at Kent State, it just had a tremendous impact way beyond, it changed careers. And one of the things I had had to talk with Alan about because he came, and I had real good long conversations with him. And he knew I went into higher education because of the tragedy. I wanted to do my small part, as a college administrator to make sure this never happened again on a university campus. And I am saying this now for Alan, Alan. All the years that he talked when he came to West Chester University to speak, one of his ultimate goals was to get truth and justice for those who, you know, suffered because of this, but also to make sure this kind of an event never again, ever happens on a university campus. A free speech, protest, where students died expressing their free speech. So, it was-
JL: 56:59
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 58:00
-it is there is so-so much here. And, and, of course, you know, what Alan did all throughout the years to make sure that we never forget it as well. When you as a, as a young person, I want to question some of the things that you have already brought up because of what happened at Kent State, the qualities of distrust toward government, distrust toward the system, distrust toward leaders. There was a slogan back in the (19)60s that, that the boomers that were involved in activist in the antiwar movement, and the impact that it had on them was that they did not trust leaders. And-and, and we were talking all leaders. University presidents, politicians, ministers, rabbis, anyone in a position of leadership could not be trusted. Did that affect you that way?
JL: 59:01
You know, to me, that is an extreme point of view, and I try to be rational. And so to me, that would be like, I call it jumping to confusions and I, I have respect for leadership, but I have to understand that they are, they are working for the common good and not for personal, you know, financial or power dictates that-that just, they are trying to keep maintain their power, their influence, and, and so I do not, I would not say that I take that kind of a broad brush with all leadership. I would, I would evaluate, I would evaluate the things that a leader does and says and judged by their actions. It is more than their words. But the blanket statement that I made is true. I distrust media and government. The government lied to us about Vietnam and the media lies to us constantly about different things. But I would not say that I challenged all leadership, I was distrustful. And I always looked for like, what is the reason someone would want us to believe this way, I was questioning, I was questioning but I was not completely full of distrust for all leaders. I would not say.
SM: 1:00:25
This is important question, Joe, that I want to ask, what are the lessons of Kent State for not only, for future generations of college students? What is the lesson you want them to know? Not only from college students, that are, young people that are alive today that are yet born, because through research and scholarship at our center, we are hoping that we will find people who were going to study the (19)60s and early (19)70s, get their PhD in this area and teach the (19)60s the way it should be taught, from all points of view, conservative liberal and everything in between. What are what do you feel were the lessons of Kent State that you want to pass on to future generations?
JL: 1:01:13
I just think that there is, there is hope when-when people recognize their common ground. And I still believe in nonviolent resistance. I believe in direct action using nonviolent methods. Although it is a hard, hard slog, sometimes you get where you are going. I do not believe you can fight violence with violence, I think we need to be, we need to be peaceful and rational and, and respectful of each other, even especially those who disagree with. And it is hard. That is a, that is a hard, hard assignment. But that is what I tried to do. And as far as the overall lessons from Kent State, I-I hope that we have learned that we have to allow for dissent. We should not be attacking people who do not agree with government policies, we should be, you know, I actually, you know, remember the Nixon administration was all talking about law and order. Where most of those people were convicted felons, in the Nixon administration, and protesters at Kent State did not, you know, as far as I know, did not break any laws. I mean, we were peacefully protesting we, we did not have weapons, we did not assault people, we did not damage property that day. And so, to me, we need to have room in our, in our society, for disagreement, for peaceful disagreement. And not to quickly jump to conclusions. Like I know, I have some people I know in northwestern Oregon, who, who assume that since you know, you are kind of a lefty liberal that that you should be destroyed.
SM: 1:03:05
Right.
JL: 1:03:05
I think there should be real tolerance for-for both of us to exist in the same in the same geographic location with opposing points of view.
SM: 1:03:15
It is amazing. Yeah, that is what you said is one of the issues in America today.
JL: 1:03:20
Yeah.
SM: 1:03:22
You know, not listening to other points of view. I mean, it is my way or the highway, it very good observations. I want to be clear on this. Who were the villains of Kent State and who were the heroes?
JL: 1:03:39
I am not sure about the heroes. I know. The villains are Nixon and Rhodes. The heroes are the heroes are Glenn Frank, who begged students after the shooting to not confront guardsmen a second time because the guards said they would shoot again, if needed. The heroes are Glenn Frank who saved lives by doing that that day. And those-those people who are brave enough to speak the truth about Kent State, Alan Canfora and Dean Kahler, they have done enormous work by staying in the area whereas I, in (19)72, man I was gone, I am out of there. But they stayed and confronted it. And I mean, Dean, it is escapable, it is a conversation he could not avoid having. And so, they are the heroes for continuing to tell the truth about what happened that day and, and trying to avoid a recurrence of that and-and I think anyone who stands up to, stands up for the rule of law. I mean, because Nixon said he was the law and order people but really Law and Order would not have allowed the shootings at Kent State to happen in our civil trial they talked about the even the Army's rules of engagement do not allow people to turn on fire on-on agitators or protesters. The designation as the commander will point out specific targets for individual snipers to shoot at, it is not turn and fire when you when you feel like and, and the fact that the guardsmen all said they were afraid for their lives after being sequestered for 30 days is to me very questionable.
SM: 1:04:19
Right. Beyond Kent State, which is the obvious answer to this question, but is there another specific watershed event that was really important in your life? Either an event or happening or a death?
JL: 1:05:40
Yeah, there have been. My first wife was a paralegal assistant with the Kent State Trial, and I fell in love with her when I first saw her, she died of cancer in (19)91, after we were married 15 years together. But my first, my first inclination to, to answer is, when I was eight, my little brother, who was hydrocephalic, who had water on the brain, died when he was five. And the moment of, and my grandma was babysitting me because my mom and dad and nur- and aunt who was a nurse, said they were taking Peter to the doctor. And so, grandma was babysitting me that night, and I stayed up later than I was ever allowed too before. But at a certain point, a certain moment in time, I burst into tears. And I realized that that was the moment my brother died. And so, to me, the most important lesson in life I have ever learned is that we are all connected. We are all brothers connected in life through a way that we do not understand. And-and so this is carried with me from that day on. And it is, it is hard, not too hard not to respect people who you are related to. And so, I tried to, I tried to live my life with that lesson in mind. Lately, lately, political events, the-the Standing Rock protest was very important, I think, for people to stop the prostitution of our land for the benefit of profiteers. And the protection of our drinking water, I have, my career, my working career, I am retired now as of (20)13. But in my adult life, I have spent 20 years from (19)80 to (20)00, as a union president and shop steward for our public works employee’s union for the city where I live. And then from (20)00 to (20)16, I spent four, four terms on the local school board-
SM: 1:07:57
Oh.
JL: 1:07:58
-administering, administering to the school districts needs from kind of a management point of view. So, to me, working people are where it is at, they are the people who make our country strong and good. And we need to respect them and give them, acknowledge the work that they do and help them however we can to be successful and happy.
SM: 1:08:19
That is really great, Joe, because that is giving back. It is giving back-
JL: 1:08:26
Well, when I got here to Northwestern Oregon, I was damaged, I was very damaged goods. And so, the people here and they, that natural beauty, helped me to recover. And so, I feel like I owe it to my community to give back and that is, that is exactly my intention is I love it here. And I want the folks to know that I will do what I can to make it a better place.
SM: 1:08:49
It is amazing, because that is what Alan did all his life was kind of is giving back-
JL: 1:08:53
Most of the guys-
SM: 1:08:54
Yeah, and Dean is all about that.
JL: 1:08:58
Most of the guys are really nice guys, you know that?
SM: 1:09:01
Yes.
JL: 1:09:01
I sometimes wonder how can the, how can shooters find nine nicer guys? I mean, it is I guess there is something humbling about being shot too being, but-but yeah, I am really I am really proud to have acquaintance of mine, I call them my blood brothers. And we, we are connected in a way no one else really wants to be or can be. And so, for me that recovery, the reunions are bittersweet. They are horribly sad and-and wonderfully warm and, and welcoming because when I get together with these folks, and our supporters, our families and friends, it is just an amazing time.
SM: 1:09:50
Well, I know at one of the Kent State remembrances a few years back, you and another person who passed away were together.
JL: 1:09:59
Oh, Jim Russel.
SM: 1:09:59
Yeah Jim Russell and I am, I do not know if you remember, I took your pictures and I gave the pictures to I think Alan because they were real good close up shots. You were sitting at a panel in the auditorium there and they came out really great. And so, and I remember you were very close to him, and then the tragedy that he passed away.
JL: 1:10:20
Yeah, I convinced him to move to Oregon after our civil trial. He, he kept me sane during the civil trial, because he was a genius. He was, he had multifarious interests. And he was he was actually deeply involved in all of them. Um, and I was, I had moved to the forested hills outside of our little town in (19)72. So, in the (19)75 trial, when we were all going back to Cleveland for 14 weeks in the summer, for uh, four days a week of trial. Um, I was just out of my element as the press cameras and interviewers would follow us around the street. I was really out of my element coming from the woods, where I had been when Jim-Jim just talked to me. And he talked and he talked and he talked because he [laughs], he had all these interests. And he kept me from-from freaking out, really. And so, I feel like he saved my, saved my uh, sanity. And uh, so we became close. And then he- I invited him to move to Oregon when I came back home. And uh, after 25 years went by the local Oregon, Oregonian had an article about us, the 25th, you know, anniversary of the Kent State shootings. And after that, two professors and teachers started inviting us to come to their classes. And we were, we were very reluctant activists, Jim, especially, very reluctant. But what we found was that by telling the truth of our story, that- it kind of was cathartic, that it lightened the load on our hearts. Although I do feel it was obvious from observation that it was causing some sorrow for the students who heard us talk about the truth about Kent State. And so, we bonded that way for years. We did that at colleges and high schools around Oregon until (20)07 when Jim had a heart attack, and as he would have, as he would have designed it, had a heart attack and died in his wife's arms. At his home in Rainier, Oregon. It was a heart heartbreaking [inaudible], for me to think about him being gone, we- we had, an extremely close relationship. In many ways we were so different that we were like, uh, two poles of a magnet. And it just drew us together, we could tell the Kent State story because we had each been at different places at different times, in a way that was so thorough, and uh, we were just like, kind of walk into each other's uh, monologues smoothlessly, smoothly. And uh, and it was it was just a it was a very powerful, very powerful sort of when we told it together.
SM: 1:13:21
Well, he is, he is another one of those, of the nine. One of the good guys and why, [crosstalk]. I had- Oh man, he, was also, worked for the city- [laughs] I-I want to mention the Vietnam Memorial, you know, the whole thing happened in 1982. When Vietnam veterans came back, they were treated pretty poorly and, [crosstalk] and really poorly. No, not by me either. But, then in 1982, the wall opened and everything's changed. Now the question I really want to ask you, Jan Scruggs wrote that historic book, "The Healing of a Nation." And of course, he, he wanted to make the Vietnam Memorial, a nonpolitical entity, as a remembrance for the 58 plus 1000 who died, and are, certainly all Vietnam veterans who have served and their families. The question I want to ask you is, the Vietnam Memorial has done a great job in terms of healing amongst the veterans themselves and their families and now many, men, have seems like more Vietnam veterans are dying faster than even the World War Two veterans died from post-traumatic stress disorder but certainly Agent Orange and cancer and everything. I remember asking this to three United States senators. I asked this to Senator Eugene McCarthy, I asked this to George McGovern, and I asked this to Gaylord Nelson and it was Gaylord Nelson's response, which was the best one. But the question is, is it possible to heal, as a nation, from a war that tore us so much apart? [silence] Are you still there?
JL: 1:13:30
He was an engineer, he was, he was into the detail of [chuckles] of the radius of curbs and shit like [laughter], are you kidding me? I mean, I think, he, he annoyed the hell out of me and I think I have amused the hell out of him so, [inaudible]. So, it was the perfect relationship.
SM: 1:13:31
Yep.
JL: 1:13:49
You are breaking up, Steven. Yeah, I-I kind of missed the first part.
SM: 1:15:13
Is it, is it possible to heal, have-have we healed, as a nation from the Vietnam War?
JL: 1:15:38
Oh, good question. Um, [coughs] that is a good question. I-I do not know. I-I do not know would say we have made attempts to heal, I-I, I-I do think of one thing that we have not talked about, that is a very important element to response to the war in Vietnam was the Veterans for Peace, the antiwar, that is actually where leaders, even more so than the student antiwar groups, in opposing the war in Vietnam. And I think without them, we would not have gotten to the memorial into the place where we are now. [crosstalk] But, I-I think there is, I think there is still existing divisions that go back to that time. And I am not so sure that they are only about the war, they may also be about the philosophy of governance, the approach to authority, the relationship that men have with their fathers [laughs].
SM: 1:16:37
Right.
JL: 1:16:38
You know, I-I think we should have learned to be more forgiving and more compassionate, but I am not sure that all of us have. [crosstalk] The other thing I would add, as you talk about the fifty-eight thousand, lives that were sacrificed, we also have to remember the 3 million-
SM: 1:16:57
You are right.
JL: 1:16:58
-Asians who,
SM: 1:16:58
Yes. Mhm. Right. Yeah, I-. Mhm. Yes, you are darn right [crosstalk]. Yes. Yes. Because, when you go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and um, you know, it is not only seeing the faces of those who-who are no longer with us who served their nation, but it is also the 3 million who died, the Vietnamese themselves. I-I know that from working in a university and advising the Asian American organization, of which most of them were Vietnamese students, whose parents were both people and survived, on the boats to go to certain islands. And then of course, they ended up meeting, they fell in love. And a lot of the Vietnamese have done very well in this nation. And, but a lot of them are from the boat people that survived that war, just survived. And, I know President Bush in 1989, you may remember this, said "The Vietnam syndrome is over." Remember when he said that? And uh, and-and I said, he has, he has got to be kidding me. Because it kind of gets into what they call, "The culture wars." And the culture wars from the (19)60s are still happening right now in the year 2021.
JL: 1:16:59
-who died. Well, you know, I belong to a, an internet, internet, message group that is called, "Full Disclosure." And it was, it was, it was started a couple years ago, maybe more than a couple of years ago, to correct the historical revisionism: that was trying to make it sound like, Vietnam was a glorious war. And, these are mostly veterans, their outspoken antiwar veterans, who, share emails, you know, not every day, but frequently, with their comments about the way things are going now. And-and some of them I-I have met, a great group of antiwar vets in the Portland area similar so my best friends who I hear from pretty often and, and they are still active in doing what they did and opposing war and telling the truth of war to, to people who will listen, students and the public whenever they can. And we went on some speaking tours with them, Russell and I and, and it was very moving. It was very moving. One of this, one of these friends is a, was a Vietnam era medic, a combat medic, and-and he-he has a vague resemblance to Dana Carvey, and [crosstalk] his speech is so honest that he will have you laughing, and then crying within 20 minutes of telling his story about, uh-
SM: 1:19:46
Wow.
JL: 1:19:46
-about-about his experiences and those of the-the guys the young men around him, who you know, who were wounded and dying and some of them dead and, it has just been uh, hm. I-I am very grateful for their friendship, let me say that. I-I have met some guys whose-whose friendship means a great deal to me because they support, they support, our Kent State experience and a motivation we had that time. So, it means a lot to me.
SM: 1:20:20
Oh really? Wow. Mhm. The, we only got a couple more questions here. One of them is, as you as we were in, especially the front edge boomers when they were in junior high school, there were some major events that happened. And I would like to know your thoughts on what happened in, on November 22nd of (19)63, where were you when JFK was killed?
JL: 1:20:41
I was in seventh grade, I was seventh grade, in Mrs. Lakely's class and our [inaudible] Ohio at St. Francis De Sales. School. And of course, since it was a Catholic school, and this was our first Catholic president, everybody was heartbroken. It was, it was just a tragic, tragic event. And of course, in (19)68, then we lost RFK and Martin Luther King. And it seemed like we had entered a period of history where assassination was going to be the rule rather than the exception. And that was damn frightening, I think for us.
SM: 1:21:08
Yes-yes. Right. And even Malcolm X got killed in (19)65.
JL: 1:21:21
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:21:21
Yeah-yeah. Oh, this is really well addressed in Tom Grace's books. He calls it, "The Long Sixties." And-and I think there is a connection between the, late (19)50s, labor movement and the early (19)70s, repression, government repression that kind of tamped down the-the, mobilization of-of antigovernment activity. So, I guess, I would guess, late, late (19)50s and early (19)70s kind of really defined something like the (19)60s. But, um, yeah, I-I do not know I-I am not a very well, I am not a very learned person I have going on as I have learned through life, but not through, formal education. So, I-I do not really know. You know, and, and, of course, of course, we all know that Gandhi, was murdered as well, way before, but he was a role model for Dr. King. It is amazing that, you know, you met-, you mentioned about why did the nine might in the four, who were killed, cannot stay in the nine who are wounded. Why did it happen to good people like this? Well, you know, same thing you can say for politicians who a lot of people believe we are doing good deeds for others, and then others did not like them. So, let us eliminate them. So, it is kind of, that is part of the experience of, I think of the boomer generation-generation as well. I got two more questions. This question is when do you think the (19)60s began? And when do you think it ended? If it did? You know, that the personalities of the, when you look at the, your life, from when you were young and now older, as a boomer, who were the personalities that you just simply admired? And, and then the personalities that you did not admire?
JL: 1:23:32
Well, I loved my grandma. My grandma was from Slovakia. She always stood up straight. She always spoke clearly. She was a very well informed, she was a democratic precinct woman and would be at a voting ballot place every, every election. She was kind and sweet. And I know she, she was very quiet about those things that troubled her. And as far as someone to [silence] look up to, I think it would be Nixon. People with ulterior motives who would lie out the side of their mouth to get what they wanted. That was not really legitimate. You know, he-he got into politics by answering a one ad by some California businessman who wanted to voice for them in the, in the legislature in California. So, he was like a prostitute from the beginning, I think. Jagger Hoover, you know, he was a brutal, brutal, and evil person. And the more we know about him, the less I like him. He, he caused suffering and death. You know, um, I had I had the opportunity at one of the Kent State commemoration is to meet Bobby Seale, who, who I admire I mean, he was at the forefront of the Black Panther Party when, they rose up and challenged the government with the rifles on the steps of the courthouse in Sacramento, which is brilliant and also fearful, [laughs] fearful tactic. But, you know, he was not perfect, he-he did have some, he did have some shortcomings, but he was faced with an unbelievable situation that Black Panthers and that time and, and I guess I also looked up to people who I met like Reverend John Adams, he was a minister for the board of Church and Society, the United Methodist Church, he was like a chaplain for us during our Kent State Civil Trial, as well as a, the only white man to cross the lines in (19)75, between the FBI and the occupants' occupiers at Wounded Knee. So, to me, he is like a chaplain for, for causes that were important. I do not know. I am happy to have the friends I have, who support me and who I support, and, I feel very lucky to be where I am.
SM: 1:26:09
And how important was the music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s to you?
JL: 1:26:15
Oh critical, oh critical.
SM: 1:26:17
-during, during everything?
JL: 1:26:18
-It was life, music of the music then, and the lyrics. I mean, they are they define, to a large extent they define, define those moments more than anything else.
SM: 1:26:33
Yeah, they were they were something that is for sure. And-and are there any? Uh, I only got-finishing this up. Um, the movies, there have been many movies that have come out trying to describe the (19)60s or the Vietnam War. What are the movies that you really, think are good ones to watch? If you want to try to understand the era when the Boomers were young?
JL: 1:27:02
I do not know. My friend, my combat veteran friend, says that, uh, "Platoon," was the most realistic one that he thought for being in combat. I do not know. I do not know if there is movies, if a movie has-has captured, has captured the spirit yet. I-um, yeah, I am not. I do not have a really great memory anyway. So, I do not know. I cannot answer that.
SM: 1:27:32
I will end with this. You know, when-when I asked that question about when do the (19)60s end, everybody has their own kind of answers. But to me when (19)73 hit, I do not know, you probably remember this point, it probably happened at Kent State as well. It is when the people were stripping. Remember that started happening again. They were running all over the campus nude and all that other stuff. I-I, I [crosstalk] was at Ohio, I was in my first job at Ohio University. And I got a call from Jones graduate tower on the Ohio State campus where I lived when I was a graduate student. And they said, Steve, you got to come back to campus, why? The (19)60s are over. I said, "What?" Just come back to the campus for Friday night and I will explain. I drove back to Jones tower. I read the paper that that that people in different residence halls are going to strip off and run across campus. They were feeling free. [laughs] And they did not care about anything political. And, uh, so I go behind the Ohio State Law Library and go and behold, they were doing the Rockettes [laughs]. Some-some women are coming out doing Rockettes things nude and then the guts the guys were coming out wherever they were. And then, then all of a sudden, people were taking their clothes off and run across campus. And then they said, come the next day, because they were going to run down High Street. And so, it was a weekend. So, I came to High Street sat at the corner of Mercian auditorium [laughs]. And here they come [laughs].
JL: 1:29:03
Wow.
SM: 1:29:04
And I and I said, and I said to myself, "This, is this the end of the (19)60s?" [laughs] "Does this mean? [crosstalk] that fun, has now returned to the college campus?" [crosstalk] So I-I do not you know, I have always, I have mentioned that I remember I mentioned that to Rodney Davis and he laughed. And uh, when he said there was some sense of truce there because it was kind of people were going into communes at that time. They were, kind of, it was, -a it was a long story. I want to, and I want to thank you very much for spending this time with me. Yeah, I have learned a lot.
JL: 1:29:38
Sure.
SM: 1:29:38
-for you and, uh, and my admiration for you is always, higher, now it is even higher. You know, I, I will be there at the remembrance event this next year. I hope you are there because I am I am going to come back. I have to be there for Alan because I think they are going to do some things for him. But, are there any final thoughts, that you would like to mention that you feel, that you did not say? Anything in connection with your-?
JL: 1:30:03
Oh, no. [laughs] Yeah, I do not know. [laughs] Sure. Well, you know, I have been to most of the commemorations I have missed a few. But usually someone will come up to me and they will say, and they will find, after they find out who I am and my connection, my experience, they will come up to me and they will say, "This is my first time back," and then they will start to cry. And so, what I often say to people is, you did not have to be shot, to be wounded at Kent State on May 4th (19)70. In fact, I think the whole country, the whole country had a wound that day.
SM: 1:30:07
I agree.
JL: 1:30:35
And I think we are all still trying to heal from it.
SM: 1:30:41
That-That is, what a way to end the interview. Thank you very much, Joe.
JL: 1:30:46
Thank you, Steven, for what you do.
SM: 1:30:47
Thank you. And I will make sure that the university will send this, um this CD, it will be on your CD, it will be sent to you once they digitize it. For before it is finally approved.
JL: 1:31:00
And, uh send me a link to look at the other interviews.
SM: 1:31:03
I will do so.
JL: 1:31:04
if there is a way you can do that alright, thanks.
SM: 1:31:05
Yeah, I will do that- when I get [inaudible] I meant, um, I am-yep. Thank you very much. Be safe, stay healthy. And keep doing what you are doing.
JL: 1:31:15
All right. You too, Stephen. Thank you.
SM: 1:31:17
Have a great day. Bye now.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Joseph Lewis
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
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</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Date of Interview
19 November 2021
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Stephen McKiernan
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Dr. Bruce Johansen
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1:54:15
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Biographical Text
Dr. Bruce Johansen is a Professor of Communication and Native American Studies, the University of Nebraska at Omaha. He had authored 39 published books as of 2014. He writes frequently about environmental subjects. He also writes as a journalist in several national forums, including the Washington Post and The Progressive, with letters to the editor in The Atlantic, New York Times, National Geographic, Wall Street Journal, et al. He earned his Bachelor's degree from the University of Washington; a Master's degree from the University of Minnesota, and he has a Ph.D. from the University of Washington.
Keywords
Washington State; Nato; 1960s; Native Americans; American Indian Movement; John F Kenndy; 1950s; Wild West; Wounded Knee; Activism; Vietnam; Healing.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Bruce Johansen
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 2 December 2021
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:02
All right, we are all set.
BC: 00:05
Okay.
SM: 00:06
Thank you very much Dr. Johansen for agreeing to be interviewed for this, for the Center for the Study of (19)60s at Binghamton University. The first question I want to ask you is could you tell us a little bit about your growing up years, your early influences, your parents, where you went to high school, college, those early years before you became a professor?
BC: 00:28
Okay. I was born in 1950 in San Diego by, was in the, Coast Guard, it was, you know they have a, Coast Guard bases you know, all over the place. So, I grew up, you know, moving you know over about half-half the world you know, they have a Coast Guard in the Philippines, they have it in you know, in [inaudible] up in Canada, in Puerto Rico, so they even have all these here in Omaha, but you know there is not any coast here, but they have one. You know, so, I grew up until age 18, you know, traveling, you know, with my family at age 18, okay I mean between ages 15 and 18 which was 1965 to (19)68, I was at high, high school in Fort Angeles, you know in Washington State. And there is a Coast Guard base there too, and the, the time change to you know to, apply for college and I, favorite the- you know, the view of Washington. My parents had been transferred to San Diego again, and they invited me to come but I was, I mean I was itching to get out of that, you know there else. And so, I went over to Seattle and got a scholarship which we, they hired me to go to school there, so I did [chuckles]. [inaudible] provide scholarships so then I was in the, you know in the, Seattle in school when you know the whole anti-war movement blew up. And in 1971, I was the editor of the, "The Daily," which is this student paper, so I mean I spent all kinds of time covering this, you know, and it is on the record if you go back far enough to do that. I started in (19)69, I became the editor in (19)71, and I graduated with my BA in (19)72, and after that I went over to Seattle two times and this takes us up to about, let us see, (19)74 and five. I took ten months in Minnesota, and then came back to Seattle, and I went back to the times, I mean I was overeducated for my job so I ended up getting a PhD at this, you know, famous school and graduated 1971. My thesis and dissertation was on the ways in which the {inaudible] help to fight our government, in you know in the (19)30s, (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s and onward. And that blew up a debate all over the country which, it did not actually start up till the (19)80s, and it got bigger you know after that but the- there was all kinds of throwback and there were other people who were you know, interested too. Then I put it, I mean after a long search for a publisher in (19)82, the dissertation came out as a book. [inaudible] awaited it starts to spread, and I am being slimed by people such as you know, [inaudible] and others you know, you have not listened till you been slimed with [inaudible]. And in some of his books too, he hated, of course. So, this takes us up to about 1982, you know, I am out of college, I have my PhD and I started to become active in, in Indian fishing rights, you know also in the early (19)70s, you know, things were heating up in the northwest. Most people outside that area do not have a good idea of why this, you know, battle over salmon was a such big item in that area. But I started out, I was still at the times (19)72-(19)76, and I covered this, the fishing rights, and got to know some of the people behind it. So, jumping ahead to (19)82 again, my book is out, you know, I am a starving artist, you know, books, I mean, even books that have an audience, I mean, often do not support you so, and I did you know, side gigs, I mean, I wrote articles. [inaudible] I could not feel as if I could go back to the times before my [inaudible] job there, and the [inaudible] had been hiring a lot of its own graduates because everyone wanted to stay there. So, when I graduated there, just before that, the dean of arts and sciences, sciences issued an edict or an order that said that the school of communications, which I was in could not hire any more of its own graduates. So, I was you know, when I was looking for an academic job, I went out on-on the road, and I ended up in 1982 in Omaha and I worked here, and I was pretty tired. I think it was 2018 so that, you know, that puts me probably at over 37 years as an academic in Omaha you know and, and I am still to receive books and articles-
SM: 15:16
Right.
BC: 15:18
-from here so you know it has added up to 53 books-
SM: 15:29
Wow.
BC: 15:29
-and hundreds of other things you know if you Google me you will, you will get an idea of what is out there.
SM: 15:44
Yeah you, you are quite a scholar, I mean you wrote the Encyclopedia of Native Americans and some of the other books are just unbelievable. And my question is, how, I know that you are talking about the issue with salmon and so forth, River Race and so forth? But how did you get an interest in Native American issues?
BC: 16:14
Back in about 1970, I read a book by Keith Brown called [inaudible] and that is what started it, and also when my PhD, you the time came to start a PhD dissertation I had just I had several friends who are you know urging me to do the Iroquois connection with, with Benjamin Franklin and others, and the people on my PhD several, one of them did not, had never heard of the idea. And they did not take it to be you know, part of history or part of what could be in the historic scholarly record. So, I had to start pulling evidence and I pulled out accounts from the past and quotes from the papers, and other things. And just feeding them to the people on my committee and after a while they do it, that opened the first door and then I had to do it, and as you can see from looking at, at my stuff prior, I am- mean a writer. And as a journalist earlier, I mean, I did write fast and accurately, I am quick so, and I, you know, I mean people freeze up but I freeze up when I talk, and as a kid, about the age of eight I started to stutter. And for a while I was real, I am unhappy because I did not think I had any outlets. You know, I mean, I just be taken as a stupid kid. So, then I started work on it since about the age of nine. And I am now 71, and as sit here at my keyboard, I mean, I am working on some books and chapters today. So, I mean it, it has not stopped.
SM: 20:56
What was, what was the name of that first book that came from your dissertation?
BC: 21:04
That was "Forgotten Founders," and it was my, actually, it was my second book.
SM: 21:16
Okay.
BC: 21:17
The first one was, was called "The Iroquois," which was about how, you know, Indian issues were still alive. So, I mean, it brings things from the past up to date. You know, and so that was the first one, second one was "Forgotten Founders," which has gone on to have a real, you know, interesting, you know, impact all over the world. People, you know, hear this idea, and they either go, that is fascinating, or that is crap [chuckles].
SM: 22:22
And that is the one, is that the one that Rush Limbaugh criticizes you for?
BC: 22:27
Yeah, yeah.
SM: 22:31
What did he say about your book?
BC: 22:33
Well, he just said it was false, and that there could not possibly be a connection here. I mean, after all, you know, the founders were the founders, and the Indians were the Indians. And that is all there was. And he obviously had not read it. And that was [inaudible], you know, when after it, I mean, they paid attention. So, I had a real fun time taking them on and going into their publications and their audiences, and countering them. I mean, I turned them into, guess the word would be foils for my argument. And it, it was spread it out. It had an effect, which was opposite of what they wanted. You know, so it was, I mean, I had a really good time going after them and going into publications, which I could not get into, on my own. But since there was a debate here, I was able to worm my way into scholarly journals in history, and anthropology, and others. The idea has a really interesting fact in several academic fields if you look at it, there is obviously there is history, there is anthropology, there is [inaudible], there is law, you know and-and others you know, so it is spread like that. Also, when I am getting up with audience in several academic fields and the public, and also a lot of people in other countries are interested in American history in a way and I decided to teach audit in India which was fascinating, in Poland-
SM: 26:45
Wow.
BC: 26:46
-[inaudible].
SM: 26:49
What was the, what was the basic, what was the basic argument in the book that upset people like Limbaugh? What was, what was your basic premise in the book?
BC: 27:02
Well that there was an effect of what was, first of all, you understand that Franklin was on the way to do the Iroquois guardian and let us see, in let us say (19)50 or so, you know, he was an on [inaudible] and so, he observed how they operate, you know there is, just the culture you know, who does what, and he had a, he wrote, you know, CDs of [inaudible], you know which, which were you know, well-read small books at the time, you know, they had an audience and he published them I mean, he had a press too. So, he, at an audience and he described you know, how they operate their councils you know, their law, and gave people an idea that the, you know, Iroquois and other Indian nations had a, they were democracies, you know they, they operated in in counsels. So, Franklin takes this idea back home and puts it in his little books, and they, they spread out, you know, (19)50, (19)54, (19)50, (19)50-(19)60s and a bit after that, and this plants some seeds and some of the other founders pick it up, but he is the main one. You know, Franklin who loved going into other cultures and observing them, and writing about it. And towards the end, this real interesting [inaudible] he might have even used [inaudible] in his own time. So, he is fascinating, and almost every, you know, public library has published copies of his, his [inaudible]. You know, so it was really easy to praise what he was up to, you just had to work at it. Because there was so much of it.
SM: 31:57
The, from this experience from one of your earlier books, how have, obviously in the academic community, your books have been praised. But for critics, when you look at your writings, say in the since we are talking about the (19)60s here, (19)60s and (19)70s, we can include the (19)50s too, what was your awareness meeting meter with respect to all the major issues of the (19)60s amongst them? How did you become interested again, in the Native American issues and indigenous peoples movements, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s? Did you feel that this period in American history was positive or negative with respect to how Native Americans were, you know, presented in, through books, through television, through movies, through writings, and obviously, your contribution has been so positive and so educational, but just your perception of what was going on in America in the (19)60s and (19)70s in respect to Native American issues?
BC: 33:16
Well, I mean, I was, I got involved in these issues is about (19)70. And there were, you know, native people, you know, making their case, about you know, what ended up being forgotten. Founders early on, you know, I mean, it you can phrase it, you know, and they would tell me a bit about it and I was fascinated before about 1968, I was in high school in a rural area, you know, and I was not really old enough to take part in these things. But, I got to college in (19)68 just as the upheaval was flowing up, and the Vietnam war movement was, was also opening up all kinds of other issues, issues having to do with, you know, Latino rights, Black rights, Native rights, you know. fishing rights, all kinds of things, you know, gay rights, things that filtered into our culture after that. It was a galvanizing, anti-war movement, it was a galvanizing event that caused all these other, insurgence to have a platform and it also increased conflict, you know, around all, all these issues, I mean there was a great deal of upheaval in this I think. You know, my next book is on you know, black lives matter, and you see the same issues there that you did in the (19)60s and (19)70s, the whole you know, whole, American movement like Aim and other, other things. All kinds of, the idea was to get out from under a system which had made Native life very tough you know, to basically turn it over and start again you know, get fishing rights back, get land rights back, and then change, the damage which was, they worked on that too. And of course, that is still on, on-going you know the, you know the, the idea of you know, say, you know it is, it is an example but, Indian mascots, okay, which was getting started in the (19)60s. You know, the idea of this stereotypical Indian in shines and advertising it all, all over the place. In Omaha if you have ever seen it, we have the [inaudible] of Omaha trademark, and here in town where the company had its home office, they have a building that had their, their-their Indian, Indian on it, mutual on the top and then [inaudible] you know, Indian. Black lives matter as part of their efforts pointed that, Indian taken down. And if you come to Omaha today, you will see that it has been taken down in the field [inaudible] on it. So, you know, things have some things have changed. You know, and it is just an idea to make people think, and this has been going on. I mean, in the (19)70s, the American Indian Movement, you know, they, [inaudible] of this school I taught at, had an Indian mascot, you know, up until the, the early (19)70s. It was an ugly piece of work. I mean, it was dumb looking stick, bad art, bad idea. And so, Aim, you know, the Aim's head office was in Minneapolis, and they came down here and said, sack that thing, and they did, the early (19)70s, the, you know, the teens came up [inaudible] which, you know, is a big, fat animal that has an attitude you know. The Cleveland Indians-
SM: 42:25
Right.
BC: 42:25
-that was there, you know, the ugly, ugly mascot got there, too. And I am not sure if you know, they still have, have it. I mean, I have not checked it out. The Washington Redskins, they took that one off and they have not settled on anything else. So, I think the team is now called the team or something like this, the team from Washington. [chuckles] There certainly have been some changes and that is, that is for the positives for sure. Oh, yeah so, I write books as I look at them, have been part of the changes and you go out and you talk about these things, you educate people, and you get out the stereotypes, all kinds of stereotypes and, you know, history about Indians. And these are even carried on by people who have good educations, you know, but I got in there with the scholars and debated the stereotypes, which was an interesting turn of events. The idea at the basis of all of this, was the idea of the frontier, you know, basically said our ancestors came here over the ocean and established for 13 states on the eastern seaboard and expanded out west. And you can see, if you go to a place like, Omaha, the ages of the buildings that go up as you get further from the-the old party town. Omaha was started in the 1850s, you can get the whole idea that was always taught is that so, whites, you know, the Anglos, the people who came over the ocean you know, I mean my, my grandparents are from Norway, that the frontier will move from east to west and I was arguing that it was not that simple. You know, there was a movement of course, east to west, but then there was also feedback, which came from west to east, you know, when we start to learn from the Indians and it shapes our culture, so we have, you know, to some degree now, a hybrid culture, and you can see that in our own language, in some words that we use that people in England could not recognize. The names of our states, you know, half of them, you know Omaha is an Indian name. Nebraska is an Indian name; half the states have Indian names. And this is just an idea of the feedback, I mean the idea that we just rolled over them is too simple. You know, there was feedback and part of that feedback were things like Franklin, going out in the 1840s and 1850s, and building the case himself that that was feedback, in fact, his being part of it. Now, he understood that, and it is really interesting to read his papers because he, he understood things which have since been lost. I mean, I have, I found it fascinating. And if there was one person in the past that I could go back, just one, the one I would pick would be him, fascinating person.
SM: 49:11
Well, his grave is in Philadelphia as you know, yeah, and if you have ever been to Philadelphia, a lot of people are still throwing change on his stone, on that corner. Yeah, he is a, he is an icon in Philadelphia. And I want your thoughts on this because you and I are about same age. And even though you started college in 1968, which is the year the American Indian Movement began. If I want to go back to post WWII, I want to go between that 1946 to 1960 when John Kennedy became president, you know, the young Boomer kids, which are born between (19)60, excuse me, (19)46 to (19)64 grew up with you know, black and white television, all those Westerns on T.V. During the 1950s, with a Kodachrome, Technicolor and so forth at the movie theaters, every Saturday, you could go watch Westerns on Saturday, you can actually see him during the week, but when we were in school, and so, and of course, the comics, and everything was the Wild Wild West. It was all about, you know, you had Hopalong Cassidy and you had, you know, you had the Lone Ranger, and Tonto you had, and of course, you had Bonanza, as you got into late (19)50s, early (19)60s, you got all those, all those television shows Rawhide, Wagon Train, you know, the list. And of course, the movies, the many, many, many movies in the (19)60s, they were all these top actors, okay, [inaudible]. And this all the question is this, Native Americans were in all the movies, but they were always at war, with the people, with the white men. And I, you know, as a little boy, I grew up, I had cowboys and Indians, you probably had them too. They were composted Indians that your parents gave you for Christmas, or for your birthday, they were in all the stores. And, of course, you had the happy outfits, you had Davy Crockett, and it, you had all this stuff. But it was always the Native Americans, or they were always at war with the white man. And, and I, and I never really, as a kid put two and two together. I do not think a lot of kids did. And then as you get into the (19)60s, as you start getting older, you find out the truth. That, you know, that, about how they were treated, and you will learn about how they lost their lands, and how the trees you know, they were lied too, they, you know, then you learn more than it is, it is more than just six or seven Native American groups, it is smaller groups that were part of a nation and nations all across the country. And then the, the cavalry going to war, you know, people going west, taking up the land, all the way to California and of course, then you have the situation, big, Little Big Horn. You are, you are a kid growing up and hearing all this as well, by the time you got to 1968. What were, what were your thoughts as a boomer kid, before you even went to college in (19)68 about how Native Americans were portrayed on T.V., in the movies, in comics, in books, everything?
BC: 52:51
I think this goes back to, back to, from age two, I mean I was fooling with my parents and we were going into, I mean also, Village Theory has its own basis, you still go out and you see other cultures. And I recall from early on, you know, having an interest in other cultures, you know, and this was the (19)50s and I spent a great deal of time outside the country. So, I had something to compare it to, you know, and I was very, very interested in Puerto Rico, and both my friends were Puerto Rican and I was also for, for prolonged periods you know got exposed to Indian or others stereotypes, and when there was no Americans in the Philippines or Puerto Rico. And I just had different interests, you know, the cowboys and Indians, it did not appeal to me. So, I was from, from early on, I was looking at things from a different angle. And so, as I started to find out that there was actually something here, something interesting I mean, all these other cultures had interesting things to teach us now, the actual, the actual attachment to native peoples started to come up, up about 1970, you know, as I said, earlier, but I mean, I have been prepared by my early experiences to tell this, this standard line now, not everyone has that, you know, has that advantage, you know, being shown other cultures and other people, and having, kind of built in, I mean, I was receptive, you know, putting back to Canada, what this culture stuff is, it did not appeal to me. I mean, I did not like it. So, I am, I have felt better, you know, hanging out with, you know, Black people, Latinos, Native people, and then others, you know, that do not fit these-these groups and that is just genuine over time. I mean, I had a very interesting time in India, basically telling [inaudible] on topics that they had not heard about, but it opens their minds up and they will be receptive, so it is interesting to be on the, on the wave. And, I have kept, my, my basement here that is my library, my papers at all if anyone is interested after I go, it is all here. You know, and I have gotten more interested in people from around the world all the time and people resegregate. And I think that as [inaudible] it is our responsibility to be citizens of the world. But, of course there are all kinds of other people out there who do not think like that. I mean, things, some of them [crosstalk]. Oh, there is also a whole sector in our culture that, you know, have these symbols in their heads. They are the old thinking, I mean, it is still out there, the cowboys and Indians in the south.
SM: 1:00:25
The- the, the image was always presented now as a little kid that the, the Indians were always the bad people.
BC: 1:00:36
Yeah.
SM: 1:00:37
And, the cowboys are always the good people, even when the Cowboys did real bad things toward the, I mean, you know, little boys and girls have a hard time putting two and two together at times. But boy, as times go on, you reflect. And that is the way I reflected it. And but then, in the 1960s, when the American movie came about (19)68, like all the other movements in the (19)60s, I mean, I was kind of happy that it was happening. Because when I look at the 20th century, with an emphasis on the 1950s through the (19)80s, where would we place the concerns of Native American citizens in the scheme of things? I do not remember in the 1950s any president talking about Native American issues. And, and but in the 1960s, I see, I see people like Senator Fred Harris and his wife, Madonna Harris, who were very involved in Native American issues from the get go. And I know Madonna is still very involved, have been her entire life. But, when you look at some of the some of the issues in the (19)60s and (19)70s that stand out to me, this is just me as a white man. But, a little boy growing up in the Syracuse area, that I saw a lot of Native Americans ads on T.V., I remember the one who, of the Native American who wanted to save the environment. And he got a tear in his eye, if you remember that ad.
BC: 1:02:14
Yeah.
SM: 1:02:14
Yep. Buffy Sainte Marie, who was the great singer of the (19)60s. I mean, she still is great today, what an icon in the Native American community. And her songs all talk about the Native American spirits, the Marlon Brando, the Native American female, going to the Academy Awards, when he was getting in, she was there and there was a scene. And of course, I already talked about all the T.V. shows and they were on T.V. and, and then, too, I would like you to talk about a couple of things here, because you are a scholar that can see the insight into these more than I can. I would like you to talk about Wounded Knee. How important Wounded Knee is in the history of Native Americans, and the original Wounded Knee, and what happened in (19)73. And then also the takeover of Alcatraz, I interviewed John Trudell, who was there and of course, he has passed away and I am really upset that the interview is lost, but, but that was (19)69 to (19)71. And then of course, again, the information of the American Indian Movement in (19)68. So, I am I am really asking about Wounded Knee, AIM, and Alcatraz if you could talk on all three?
BC: 1:03:36
Well, that is a big hawk there [chuckles], yeah, after having read [inaudible] book, okay. I came to understand that, did people at that time had to go out and take some toys, you know and-and also point out you know, who owned what, you know and, and who shared culture with whom. And so, in part, I mean, all of these things were skills by eating, and science, you know, with other people in, in movements to point out that Indians were humans, they were fighting stereotypes. It comes as you kicked down from all these you know, Indian movies, and other things which can improve their entity, you know and to turn them into stereotypes. Some of this was also kind of, it tends to go both ways, you know, some people perceive, for example, the Indians you know Alcatraz as, as stereotypical. But I think part of it was, you know, bringing attention to certain issues that they had publicized and part of that was, pointing out that they were human, and part of it was working on getting back the land, you know all these things happened at the same time. And, all of these things had these roots, they were, they were teaching the rest of us these things, that is what I think of it.
SM: 1:07:08
The, the, could you talk a little bit about Wounded Knee?
BC: 1:07:20
Again, it was a [inaudible] to, to get people to pay attention, I mean to all the things that I talked about earlier. I mean part of it was publicity vehicle part of it was establishing humanity, part of it was understanding, you know, who owns what and where. All of these things, also it goes into, you know the, Wounded Knee happened at the very end of the Vietnam War, so all of the elements that contain that movement, [inaudible] Wounded Knee. But, other than that I do not think of myself as an expert on any-any single incident, and I have not really gone into what, people who established, people who planned it and carrying it out what they thought.
SM: 1:09:34
Yeah, I know when reading about the American Indian Movement in (19)68, the people who created it back in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Certainly, Dennis Banks and people like that, were certainly major activists of the 1960s and (19)70s and beyond. Some of the issues you already talked about, the issue of fishing rights the, the revitalization of traditions within the Native American community, the economic independence, which is very important to any group, legal rights, tribal areas, restoration of lands that had been lost. The things that came up in the (19)60s over cemeteries on Native American lands, I grew up in Syracuse, where the Mohawk Nation was fighting to make sure that the New York State Thruway would not go through their, their cemeteries. And there were major protests on the highways near Syracuse for many years. Many college students from Binghamton were involved in those protests, the broken treaties, and obviously AIM started because of the assistance for those who were living in poverty in Minneapolis, and of course that group that came together. Could you talk about, and you know them because of the, you know, who they are, you know, Bell Corte, you know, banks, the leaders of the AIM movement how important they were as leaders?
BC: 1:11:19
They were important to but there were all kinds of other people behind them, you know who, you know in the crime life you know, who's [inaudible] we have heard only every so often who are just as important and there are also, how conflicts inside of the movement. Women were not being treated fairly in the movement so, there was a big effort going on inside to address that. There was a group called "Women of all Nations," [inaudible] which was big into you know, pointing out that the majority of Asians were patriarchal and this was not reflected in AIM's behavior which it, at least at the start was very, very male oriented, right. That is an example, but it, you know, other things happened it was not as simple as-as it appeared on T.V. So, you know, they were important, but then AIM also fell hard, you know, in the, let us see after about 1978 and there were major, major differences, between you know different people which were exploited by the FBI and other agencies that were trying to break them up, so.
SM: 1:15:02
Yep. Yeah, you know, it is, it is in the antiwar movement and in the civil rights movement, that patriarchal thing was present.
BC: 1:15:13
Oh, it was.
SM: 1:15:15
Yeah, it was certainly in the American Indian Movement as well. And also, whenever any group starts going toward leaving nonviolence and going toward violence, you start getting into some trouble there. And that whole thing about the COINTELPRO, you bring, it was a question I was going to ask later on here, but they seem to be going everywhere with this thing. The COINTELPRO was the term used by Nixon's government to spy and to infiltrate activist groups challenging the government, any group that challenged the government's issues, linked to the states, what was happening with the, while the eighth, I think you have just described it, you know, they, they COINTELPRO was such a terrible thing, in terms of trying to break up groups, infiltrating groups getting, you know, people to go against each other. Have you done any writing on COINTELPRO and what they did in the American Indian Movement?
BC: 1:16:27
[inaudible]
SM: 1:16:28
Oh, yes-yes.
BC: 1:16:32
Yeah. Look in the index.
SM: 1:16:36
Yep.
BC: 1:16:37
And from time to time, and type of [inaudible], I have done that. You know, it would be helpful to us, the, you know, in Texas.
SM: 1:17:07
Yeah, one of the things, Native Americans also served in the Vietnam War.
BC: 1:17:13
Oh, yeah.
SM: 1:17:14
There is a brand-new book out now and why, I think it is called, "Why We Serve," it is a brand new one and Barnes and Noble. It is a big book. I would like to ask you, how many, do you know how many Native Americans actually served in the war? And did, most of them come from the inner city or were they from reservations in the inner city and how were they treated in the military? I heard one story from somebody who wrote a book on the Vietnam War. And they said many times, they would put a Native American on point simply because they were Native Americans. Now, all these things, so, you know, how many died in the war? How many around the wall?
BC: 1:18:07
Well, I have not ever looked that up. I do know, just by the stories, I have heard that the, [inaudible] was quite high. And it was high, for the most part, because at the time, you know, there were not that many native people in college. So, they, they were not deferred, you know, and they were not, they could not get it. You know, [inaudible] says to, any of those, you know, ways that you can stay out of it. And, some of them actually went on their own because there was an appeal to this stereotype of warrior at the time, but then they get over there. And they find out that well, you know, Uncle Sam is fighting the Vietnamese, and the Vietnamese are the Indian soldiers over there. So, that there is some interesting dialogues where Native Americans find out that they are on-on the wrong side. And that they are being oppressed too, and of course, all the stereotypes and discrimination and all of that went over. You know, this stuff was in the armed forces too. So, I mean, again, I have not studied it and I do not know how, how many there were, just incidentally [inaudible].
SM: 1:20:48
Yeah, I, well I read it in two different books, I cannot remember the two books but they are different ones where in, in a platoon. If there was a Native American within the platoon, the person in charge would say you are on point. And the question, that is a dangerous thing to be on point.
BC: 1:21:02
Yeah.
SM: 1:21:05
Cause there is a chance you will not come out alive. But also when you are on point that means you are helping the group go in the right direction, and so because there was a stereotypical response "You are good at point, on point, and that is why you are going to, we are sending you there," so, it was so obvious to me when I read it in both instances, in a sense to me they were sending them to their deaths. And because many people on point died and or, they landed or walked on a booby trap or whatever when they were on point. When you look at the 1960s, and the 1970s, because this is the Center for the (19)60s and you brought a lot of historic information in your writings. And your writings are going to be here too, many of your writings. I am going to, my three books I have written by you including the one we have been talking about, I am giving to the university. So, they will be here, at the center. But when you look at the (19)60s and (19)70s, was there, was it a positive or negative time for Native Americans? There was a lot of activism, but were they, was the activism kind of an organizing, a more frustrating or was it a feeling of, good feelings that we were doing something, we were bringing more attention to the world to our issues?
BC: 1:22:55
Well I think it was both, you know, there were lots of people who were discovering their history, and what they did, and dealing with problems of their time, with things like fishing rights, and land rights, you know, being mistreated by the FBI and other things. That gave everyone a sense of, you know, spirit, discovery, change, all of that. But at the same time, there was still a lot of people still living on reservations, still unhappy, despicable, inescapable poverty, all of this was happening at the same time, so it goes both ways. You could not change everything at once. So, AIM and others, there were, you know, other older groups have been activists too going back even further, so that tends to fire people up. And when you get active, you get things done and that is a good feeling but you are still looking back at your hometown or you are in places like that where there is people you know, and there is still people who are poor, unhappy, drunk, and that did not disappear. It has not disappeared in our time either. We just, in this area we just disposed of a small town on the South Dakota border, which leads up to [inaudible]. They did not sell anything except beer, so you know Indians were always going up there and buying beer, and cracking it open on the sidewalk. It was quite a sight of the old days, AIM and others have not been able to change the way that human beings, humanity like that. And there is others stores on the boundary because you cannot buy alcohol on the rez, but you can buy it off the rez, and there is still stores which are basically getting people drunk.
SM: 1:27:02
Wow. One thing I will say about AIM, and any of the groups from the (19)60s or any activist organization is when they come together, it does create a sense of community, a group of people who think alike, care about the same issues, and then builds, it builds. And certainly, any of those kinds of activities, activist activities, let us the world know that there are many concerns that need to be addressed. And I think another thing too, is, I just finished an interview with Ted Glick, another person from the Catholic movement in the (19)60s. And the fact is that urgency, the concept of urgency is another important quality within any activist group. And what he was trying to do in Minneapolis, like many possible groups, even years before Native American groups, is the fact that these are urgent issues that need to be addressed. And, and part of being an activist group too, or being organizing, is the organizing, of course. But it is the fact that often times, division happens. And of course, we live in a society now that is so divided over everything, but you cannot really bring attention to an issue unless there is some sort of division happening with one's efforts. You know, Alcatraz may have been remembering John Trudell was interviewing. You know, that may have been the people may have been upset about it. And it was, you know, a way to get the attention of Native American issues. But, you know, division was automatic because people did not like it. Jane Fonda arrived at that and they did not like it even more. And so, it is, these are all qualities. I look at these as positive things in an era of a very tumultuous period because whether they would be the people of AIM or the people of the ant-war movement, women's movement, or any of the movements they spoke up, and they did it for a reason. And it was to bring attention to the world, that things need to change and we are living in a world that is equal. We are all one, we are a community and so anyways, I just wanted to kind of throw that in there just from my thoughts on, on that type of thing. One of the things is, was I, maybe you do not know this but was there a generation gap in any of the Native American families with respect to any of these issues we talk about in the (19)60s?
BC: 1:30:42
Well, yeah, I mean, there were every family is different and there were things of this type, I mean in all families, you know, my own was that way too. But I detect that there were older families that had this happen, you know, Vine Deloria was still real active in the (19)50s and (19)60s and he influenced a lot of us who came after him. I mean, I do and he was the leader of all kinds of things. Also, kind of a bridge between the older people, and you know, younger ones, you know, he was older, but he was in the movement. And I think the same struggle was happening in Indian households, you know, and others.
SM: 1:33:09
Oh, we got a couple more questions then we will be done. Who, who are the icons in the Native American movement of writers, artists, actors, activists, politicians? When you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s who are the icons that come to mind?
BC: 1:33:36
Well the first is [inaudible] who I was, you know, I am really, well of course, and I cannot really think off the top of my head who else you know, because there are all kinds of people in different areas.
SM: 1:34:36
Certainly, that book by Dean Brown had influenced you as well.
BC: 1:34:45
I am [inaudible] in person, and he said to me that you do not know how any times I have stuck up for you in, you know, debates and whatnot. And you know, I am pretty sure he created it because he was, he had a great influence on me. And if it had not been for him and his book I might have, you know, ended up doing other things, what everything might have been.
SM: 1:35:47
Well, I am going to add one name though I am going to add one additional name here.
BC: 1:35:51
Yeah.
SM: 1:35:52
And that name is Bruce Johansen.
BC: 1:35:57
Thank you.
SM: 1:35:57
You know, you-you you have no idea the influence that you were having in an awakening in this world about Native American issues and everything. I mean, I, you, you know, I, it is just an honor to talk to you. I mean, you are you are a gifted scholar, and you deeply care about the topic you talk about, and it is, even how you answer your questions, just, just brilliant to me. I have only two more questions. One of them is obviously about the Vietnam Memorial in Washington D.C. Have you visited it yet?
BC: 1:36:37
Have I seen it?
SM: 1:36:40
Have you been to the wall?
BC: 1:36:43
I have not. I mean, I have seen pictures of it.
SM: 1:36:49
Yeah, well, I just want to ask this question. In 1982, the wall was built. And all the guys that came home, and gals, who came home from Vietnam were treated terribly, all over the, including the Native American veterans. I mean, nobody treated any of them with any sense of respect. Only until 1982, when the wall was built, Jan Scruggs, John Wheeler, and that group of people that had the courage to make it happen. It was built in remembrance for those who died in that war, the 50,000 plus. Plus, many that were wounded, and all Vietnam veterans who served and as many have told me it is also in memory of the 3 million Vietnamese who died in that war. And so, I-I want, the question I want to ask is, our nation has, was so divided in the 1960s and (19)70s. It was a tumultuous period, but it was also many people say a great time to be alive. So, cause so many issues were being brought to the attention. People were fighting one way or the other. But, the key thing is I want to ask is the healing. I asked this question to a lot of people I remember asked it to George McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, and Gaylord Nelson. And I asked them, as politicians have we healed since the war? And should we care about the healing process, the divided soak of so many different issues? Has the wall done anything really to heal the nation beyond healing those who served, and died, and their families, in just your thoughts? You know, I will mention one thing before you answer this question, and that is that when I asked Gaylord Nelson, Gaylord Nelson was very blunt with me. You know, he was the one that was responsible for ending the funding for the Vietnam War in Congress. He proposed a bill that ended it, and of course, he found it Earth Day. And he looked at me and he said, Steve, people are not walking around Washington, D.C., you know, have they healed from the war, they were not wearing it on their sleeve. But, let me tell you one thing it forever changed the body politic. And just your thoughts on whether this, the wall itself has helped the nation heal?
BC: 1:39:29
I think it is a symbol of healing. You know, and in-in that way, I think it helped us heal, heal. I was in a, you know, as a, as you heard, a military family and I was very anti-war myself. And so, that line that split us up with right through our house. And so, we, we had come to terms with that issue, I mean, at home and we kind of did. And I have always thought that everyone deserves honor as a person, you know, as, and as different as we are I have tried to be behave honorably with everybody, no matter what their race, creed, color background, etiology might be. And in part, that is because my, you know, my associations with people who are not by culture or color, or background, are so easily diverse you know, and I think that people need to open up to that, to people who are not like them because there is going to come a time when we are going to have to face the ultimate issue, which is what is happening with our Earth. Because humans have gotten to the point where we control what happens to the Earth, the heating up out there, they are more storms and all these things we can see. And I prayed about that, too, because it is the existential issue, and it is an issue that we all face. And, and if we are going to treat each other honorably, that means we have to deal with the fact that people are different from each other, that they perceive those differences in negative way often. We have to get past that. We have to get past the idea that we are different, and so different that we have to claw each other's eyes out.
SM: 1:42:49
Right.
BC: 1:42:50
Even if it comes with bargaining ourselves back to bows and arrows. Our resources are going to have to be put to healing the whole Earth, and stopping certain things which are going to screw it up forever. And I have done a stack books on climate change too, and it is real, and it is happening right now. And we are, you know, like, Bob Dylan once sang a heart, brain is going to fall and already has, we have to get to.
SM: 1:43:58
Yeah, yeah. Yep, I agree. And it brings in right here, this issue of, the issue of environmental racism with respect to indigenous populations. That is another issue we have to deal with-
BC: 1:44:13
Yeah.
SM: 1:44:13
-you know, about what is going on in African American communities all over the country, but also Native American. And this especially, and I mentioned Gaylord Nelson, because I know he cared about this, because he founded Earth in 1970. He was about everybody. Yeah, and, you know, environmental racism is certainly an issue in the Native American community. I want to close with this, very broad question here. I, you know, you can be, if I can find it here. I want to thank you again for answering all my questions. But this is, you can be as short or detailed as you want to on this, but could you describe how Native Americans have been treated from the founding of our nation through today? We know about the lies, the broken treaties, the broken promises, the stolen land, the treatments, the dehumanizing of them, Native Americans, as we, as oftentimes being unequal to the white man or anybody else. And, and lack of often times respect for their culture, and understanding of their traditions. And, and been taking these things as part of our culture now, because Native Americans are Americans too, as you talked about, we are all family if we can ever understand this, just in your, just you know you have written books on the history of in so many different areas, you wrote the encyclopedia. If there was one major thing you could just say, toward the end of our interview? How, how have Native Americans been treated from 1776 To 2021? [silence] Are you still there? Okay, could you describe in detail or in your own way, how Native Americans have been treated from the founding of this nation through today, we know about the lies, the broken treaties, the broken promises and stolen land, the treatment, treatment that is been so abusive, often times dehumanizing the group, as unequal’s due to their culture, and their race, just you are, you know, you have written books on many subjects, you have the encyclopedia. But to hear a scholar of your magnitude talk about in a, in a very succinct way, how Native Americans had been treated since 1776 to 2021?
BC: 1:47:22
If I could go back to the idea of honor, they often have not been treated with honor. We talked about the wall, you know, the Vietnam Veterans wall are people who died from our country. There is one image that sticks in my head that I cannot get out of it. It is some of the, you know, the service members who came home, who were bat on, and I do not think they deserve that dishonor you know, even though I was against the war, I was not against them. Every person has a different reason or two or more for ending up in that war, or doing anything else and everyone ought to be treated with honor, and it has been a long time, I mean, in fact, the Indian, Indians being maltreated, goes back to 1492, you know, with Columbus and I could go on and on about how Indians were stolen from and mistreated that time, on. People, people from Europe, took the land, they took the resources, and the history is all there. I mean, at least [inaudible] of an open society, that we can go find these things out, we can talk about them, we can demonstrate. That is what has been happening. And, that is a good thing. I mean, it is a good thing to be able to discuss, and get these things out in the air, and make our, make our system more perfect. I mean, if we can face the history act with honor, and honor, honor the people who gave us this land, as it turned out. Some of it was given and some of it was by, by force, think of what all of us have learned. And this is what, why I do, what I do is to try and increase the idea of honor between everybody. And to do that we have to get over some hurdles. And this extends on what I was talking earlier about the existential issue. We cannot be fighting each other and I, this is a high bar. But given what is happening, and we can almost see it on the evening news, and other places that there are more storms. I mean, I could go on, [inaudible], we have not seen them. I mean, I live in Seattle, where things were easy. I mean, it did not go up to, and they did not have you know, huge storms and wash everything away and it was easier in the (19)60s in some ways. So, native people they open it, they offer us the opportunity of seeing history with their eyes. It is necessary, necessary that we think about it, we take it to heart, or we change things because as a scholar, part of the job is it just to watch, I mean, part of the job is to define what we need to do with knowledge to cover it, debate it, and to think things over, to draw other people in because this just gets us together to tackle the really big issues that we all face. You know, that is my two bits.
SM: 1:54:07
I think that is, that is a great way to end the interview. And, let me up turn the, can we turn this off?
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Bruce Johansen
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
19 November 2021
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ted Glick
Duration
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1:43:31
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
Ted Glick is an activist, organizer, and writer. After a year of student activism as a sophomore at Grinnell College in Iowa, he left college in 1969 to work full time against the Vietnam War. He was imprisoned for eleven months for his draft resistance activities during the Vietnam War. Glick has been active in the independent progressive political movement since 1975 and since 2003 has been a national leader in the climate justice movement. He is the author of several books including his most recent titled <span>21st Century Revolution.<br /><br /></span>
Keywords
1960s; Division; Ideology; Students for Democratic Society; Violence; American Indian Movement; Individualism; Change; Prison Issue; Activism.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ted Glick
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 2 December 2021
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(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:01
All right.
TG: 00:03
Yes. So, I have retired, started working in the, towards the end of (20)15, started working on what became eventually the "Burglar for Peace" book. I have finished the manuscript for that at the end of (20)16, I started looking for a publisher, it took two years until I found somebody willing to publish it. It took another year and a half from that point, until it finally was published. So, there was like a three-and-a-half-year period after I finished that first book. And, you know, I ended up writing, eventually, I, actually the story is that I, after I finished doing that "Burglar for Peace," when I finished that manuscript, one of the next things I did, I happened to find a bible of my father who had died about a year before. And I have never been able to read the Bible. I have been in and out of the church since I was, you know, a little kid. I have never been able to read the Bible, really, very much of it at any one time. But I decided after I looked at his Bible with like, all the markings and the underlining, maybe I should read this Bible, and I did. So, I spent four or five months reading his 2000-page Bible. And that basically got me going on further reading, eventually further writing, what eventually became another book that the title is "The 21st Century Revolution: Through Higher Love, Racial Justice and Democratic Cooperation," which that, almost half though it actually does deal with issues related to religion and spirituality, and the kind of the relationship of, you know, people coming from that perspective or perspectives with those who are essentially not religious or spiritual, or even or are even anti-religious but who also think that the world is in need of a lot of change- kind of the historical inter-relationship between kind of believers and, you know, kind of particularly people coming out of the Marxist tradition, going back to the (18)48 Communist Manifesto, and so on. So anyway, so about half the book is about that, in general terms, and the rest of it is ideas about how we can bring about changes in the world, along the lines of higher love, racial justice, democratic cooperation–
SM: 02:44
Wow.
TG: 02:45
-action on climate, etc. So, so I am now the author of two books published one year after the other [laughs], which is not something I would have ever thought when I retired would ever be the case, but it just kind of happened that that is the way it worked out. I actually self-published the second book, because I just did not want to spend two more years–
SM: 03:07
Right-right.
TG: 03:07
-or whatever finding a publisher. So anyway, that is a new development.
SM: 03:12
Well, when would that book be in the bookstores?
TG: 03:15
Well, I do not know about bookstores, it is probably, you know, in some bookstores right now. It is definitely available via the internet. It is the I, they did not publish it, but the same company that published burglar for peace agreed to distribute this book. So, it is available at pmpress.org. It is right there, if you just put in my name, it will come up. You can order either of my two books right there. That is the really the easiest way. And again, it may be in some bookstores, but I do not know if it is I do not know how many, probably not a lot at this point.
SM: 03:57
Well you mentioned your life, you never thought you would be writing two books. But when you look at your entire life, what a life it is.
TG: 04:04
Yeah.
SM: 04:05
And-and I want to start out by asking this very important for first question is, what is the meaning of an activist? And-and in this definition, who are you with respect to the definition of an activist? And when you look at some of the other greats that you have mentioned in your book, like Dr. King and Gandhi and the Berrigan Brothers, what did they possess as activists that you were always aspiring to?
TG: 04:36
Well, I do think, I define myself as an activist, but also as an organizer, and of course, as a person with kind of progressive political views. And so, you know, somebody who is an activist could be, you know, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, right. So, to me it is important to be clear, where, where the activism is going, what is the purpose of it, you know, what is the reason for it. So that is important. The, but also there is, to me, there is a difference between an activist and an organizer. An activist, could be somebody, and there certainly are people I know like this, who, you know, they like to do things that are, you know, that are reflective of their belief. They like to work in a soup kitchen feeding people, they maybe want to, they clean up parks, you know, whenever there is a park cleanup, trying to get garbage, try to clean up parks, there is that that to me, that is activism. And that is all good. But we need also organizers, people who really, and this definitely in terms of that Dr. King, and Ghandi, and Phil Berrigan, they were all people who knew how to bring other people together, how to inspire other people, how to give leadership, how to help other people find their own leadership qualities and to develop them develop, their-their other people's abilities to lead, you know, an organizer is somebody who really, really sees the bigger picture and understands that change does not happen because of individuals that do things, or even individual ideas, those are all, that is all very important. Ultimately, change happens when, when large numbers of people join together in movements, in social movements, political movements, movements for change of some kind, and, and are able to impact society, because they have joined together and because they have been able to, to bring to bring about change accordingly. In whatever way it happens.
SM: 07:03
You bring up throughout your book in many different examples, the importance of community. That and bringing people together of like minds for a particular cause. But by having community you also find people who are, may disagree with you, but will create a dialogue with you. And-and I think that was very important to say, because when you think of the country we live in today, and what the (19)60s was all about, there was a lot of division going on. But that division was necessary in order to get the dialogue going to try to and some of the bad things that were happening.
TG: 07:46
Yeah, no, that is a big issue of the question. I have actually been thinking about that for the last month or so as far as something I want to write a little bit more about. Because you are right, that there is a lot of similarities between the (19)60s and today in terms of the-the division that exists, and the divisions. But you know, not-not all divisions are bad things, right. When you, uniting a people who have the ideology, you know, of Donald Trump. I mean, their really deep ideology and who worship the guy- uniting people like that with, you know, people like me, people who believe that, you know, Black lives do matter, etc. You know, that is not really likely. People do change. I mean, there are examples of Ku Klux Klan leaders who literally have torn up their Ku Klux Klan cards and have kind of gone over to the other side, as they have come to realize what they were believing and doing was wrong. That does happen. But-but you know, in general, when-when you have that much of a gulf between what people believe in and what they do and what their-their vision of society is, it is, it is important actually for the things it for it to be clear about the differences that exists. Very important. You know, one of the things that I have experienced working politically in the United States is that a lot of other countries allow for multiple political parties. They use systems of proportional representation, where you when you are voting, or a parliament or Congress, you can vote for X individuals, but you also get to vote for a party. And parties that get a certain percentage of the vote, usually it is 5 percent. You know, if you if you show that you are organized enough and have enough of a social base that you can get 5 percent of the vote, then you then you will end up. Yeah, thing 5 percent of the seats in the parliament, which, you know, we call the Congress. That is a much more democratic system. And that, I think, is something that, you know, we need to strive for in this country. In this country, when you have only two parties, there is always this, this tendency to try to mishmash you just, to get anything done there is, there is a tendency for things to kind of be pushed towards the more-more lowest common denominator, when what is really needed is much more significant change than just kind of the lowest common denominator. And having a political system that really reflected the-the different political perspectives that do exist in this country, I think would be helpful. I mean, I do believe, again from experience, that compromise, when you are talking about legislation, certainly, but even when you are talking about building a movement, compromise is something that is real. The key the trick is that, you know, you cannot compromise principles. You can compromise on tactics- -you can compromise on, you know, the particularly, particularities of a solution to a problem. But you cannot compromise on principles. And there is, without question, a long history among people who are on the left, people who are about a different kind of society that is more just, more fair, more peaceful- getting into power, and essentially compromising principles, compromising so much that they essentially become corrupt. They become corrupt leaders. And that is a real problem. That is a real major issue that the second book that I wrote, in many ways, I wrote that book, trying to address that issue, what-what is it that leads to, you know, good causes really good causes going bad, and a lot of it has to do with-with that happening, leaders are getting divorced from the people that they are representing or trying to represent. And leaders just getting caught up in their own individual power, and losing sight of what it was that got them involved in the first place. And in this in this second book, 21st century revolution, I do put forward ideas on how we can build a very different kind of a movement today that I actually think is happening, I do not think it is something in the future. I think it actually is going on right now, a different kind of a movement that that has the kind of internal culture and goes about its whole processes of decision making, and the way it structures itself, to kind of minimize the possibilities of that, that kind of thing happening going forward. It is a huge issue. I mean, anybody who has studied history knows that this is just, you know, a lot of what history is about. Good causes going bad, good people going bad, personal corruption. That is, that is part of the human condition. And but it does not have to be that way. I really do not think it has to be that way. Right. That, it is excellent because you mentioned several times in your book, how movements for gr- for very noble causes can sometimes fall apart because of disagreements within the community. And the community I talk about, the examples you talk about is the Students for Democratic Society. Right.
SM: 13:48
And the and then the, going away from non-violence toward violence, really kind of ended that particular group and turned people off. And, and you know, and that also happened somewhat in the American Indian Movement where great causes, but then all of a sudden violence took over and because of this AIM, which started in (19)68, did not live as long, although it still exists for very good causes. But you know, that when you start going from non-violence to violence, that can just ruin it right away.
TG: 14:24
Yeah. Yeah. No, no question about it. I-I yeah, I mean, actually, your what you said is just-just right. I guess, the what I would deepen it though a little bit. It is definitely the issue of a commitment to a nonviolent approach versus an openness to violence. But I am actually not a pacifist. I do not own a gun, I have actually never fired a gun with the exception of a camp that I went to when I was a teenager and I would shoot a 22 at targets. And also, when I was in the boy scouts, I think I did a little bit of that then. So, I am not into guns, I am not into violence, I am very much into-into non-violence on a personal level and in terms of the movement that that I am building. But I definitely, for example, I and I referenced this person in my, definitely, in this latest book, I am not sure about Burglars for Peace. But Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Germany was a, he was a pacifist, you know, Lutheran minister, a leader in the German Lutheran Church. And because Hitler was so evil, and because of everything that was happening in Germany, eventually became part of a plot to assassinate Hitler, working with disaffected people in the military and the universities and so on. So, I am not, so in that sense, it is it, it is not necessarily in every single case, violence versus non-violence, I think, to me, it is, it is deeper, it really does have to do with this issue of, of, of personal values, and whether you are going to stick to your personal values and have. I mean, really, for some people, for religious people, it is whether you believe in God and whether you follow, whether you put God and what he, what he stands for what-what or she, this, this thing that we call God, this, this greater force in the universe- whether that is the priority, right? If that is what if that is the number one thing that you are trying every day, to live your life by, by that standard, right, that you trying to, you know, love your neighbor as yourself in a very literal way, and in the way that you interact with other people, in the way that you talk to people, in the way that you communicate, in the way that you work together in an organization to make decisions. Right, you do not, you know, you are not coming from added from an individualistic standpoint that, you know, I want to get my get things my way I want to kind of get, manipulate somebody to get them to go along with me or something along those lines, that it really is a genuine understanding of connections, right. That there are human connections, connections to the natural world, connections to people, you know, who have come before us and people who are coming after us- that those, all of those connections are really what make us, can make us the kind of people that we can be, I mean, that I know we can be, from my own experience. That there is, there are many people who do take those values seriously, whether they are religious or spiritual or-or not at all, they take values of concern for others, of trying to love other people, of trying to be just in your dealings and fair and honest. That is, that is, to me, that is, that is, that is the deeper need, that we have all of us who want to change the world that we need to, you know, not just be-be that way on an individual basis. But we need to talk about this, you know, in this book that, the second book that I wrote, in the research I did, I came across some really good stuff from Albert Einstein. I am kind of looking up right now, what I am hoping for here. You know, Einstein, what, he was not an atheist. He said he was not an atheist. But he also said he did not believe in some, in the conception of God that many people believed in. His was more what he called a kind of a cosmic religion. But one of the things he said, a great quote, it is very short here. That, here it is. And he, you know, he kind of writes more about this, but kind of, here is, here is kind of, to me, the punch line. He is talking about the necessity of a human societies having a, an ethical and a moral approach to-to, you know, to the development of society. And he, he relates that to the just the dominance of the scientific method and science as being you know, what was, back when he was alive was very much, much more of a dominant current, that science is kind of everything. That is the key on understanding being scientific. So here, this is like this couple sentences here. He said this in (19)51. He said quote, "A positive aspiration and effort for an ethical, moral configuration of our common life is of overriding importance. Here, no science can save us." And I have had definitely experience over, you know, the years that I have been active, with people who have essentially seen themselves as very scientific, everything needs to be just objective scientific, etc. But there is a dimension to life that is more than science. You know, again, Einstein talks about that. He talks about the-the mysterious, the sense of awe and grandeur that you can get when you are out in nature. That that that to him is kind of like a way that we, you know, sense this greater force that people call God that there is this greater power, greater force in the universe. And it is important that people do not lose that, do not lose that that sense of wonder, that is the I mean, Jesus talked about to enter into heaven, you need to be like a child, right. A child who is just kind of, you know, amazed at everything that he or she, you know, experiences as they are growing up. And it is just a whole, a joy, and an interest, and so on.
SM: 21:34
This is what, some of those comments, there just, it can link up to your life. In the early part of your book, you talk about those early years when you were growing up with your parents. And then of course, going off to college, I looked at, you know, for any young person or trying to find his or her way in life, it is a great book, because you are a perfect example, and a role model of a person whose evolving is ongoing, yet you had a lot of uncertainties at times, but you found your way. And in life's journey, in the end, even with some of the discussions you had with your parents, it was your way, it was not their way, it was your way, you found your way. And if you could talk a little bit about those early years, growing up in Lancaster and, you know, your upbringing with your parents, and then going off to college and, and in particular, discuss what was going through your mind at college with respect to what was become- what was happening at the time on college campuses and linkage with the society in the United States and the world, linked to the Vietnam War. And of course, in our country, Civil Rights, the draft, the multiple movements that were evolving for gay and lesbian, Chicano, African American, women's movement. You know, those kinds of things. They were all happening when you were in college, and they were obviously, you were going to things, hearing speakers, talking to your peers, but you were trying to find yourself. Could you kind of describe that a little more in detail?
TG: 23:18
Yeah, sure. Well, you know, growing up before I went to college, I did have the benefit of being part of a family, which was, of course, primarily my parents. It also did include aunts and uncles and grandparents. I again, I have, had the real privilege of on both sides of my family, having those connections, family reunions, that went on a lot and visits to, to, you know, my aunts and uncles and my getting to know my cousins and so on. And within that family, the two the two families, the-the Glicks on my father's side, and the Zieglers on my mother's side, you know, the things I am talking about were generally the way people viewed the world, there was a real strong strain of the importance of an ethical, and a moral life of a lot of the best of Christian principles. So that that was, I was not an activist at all, when I was in, in high school. You know, I was just, you know, doing sports, that was my big thing. You know, pretty good students. things here and there, I had my friends. But I was following things. My-my, my parents, particularly my father, was active, to some extent in the local civil rights movement in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, although for some reason he never talked very much with either me or my two sisters about it that I remember. He just, I think he had a view that essentially, I had to make my own way. And he really did not talk to me much at all about what he was doing or why he was doing it even although, again, I the values I understood were, that was what was underlining it. And I do have memories of my father explicitly saying things to me about it, there-there was one time in I think Chicago when I was maybe four or five, and we were at the at a at the beach, I guess it must have been Lake Michigan and somebody must have used the N word close to where we were. And I think I asked him, "What does that mean?" He says, "well, Ted, I do not ever want to hear you use that word." And then he kind of explained what, what, what it meant and why it was the wrong thing to say, and so on. So certainly, those-those things happen. I remember another time, my dad and I had gone up to a hockey game, I was maybe 15 or 16. And we were in Lancaster, we went to Hershey, Pennsylvania, there was a minor league hockey team there. And every once in a while, we did that. And I just remember one time, we were driving in the car, listening to the radio, and there is some story about like, you know, poverty in you know, in the world, how many people were in poverty, and so on. And my dad just made this very short comment about Ted, there is something that you could maybe do with your life. And I, that is that, that is stuck with me all these years, which has to mean that it had an impact on me. So, there were things, so there are things like that that happened that again, it was not so much politics, it was values. That, that is what I got more than anything from my parents and from my bigger family. So that then when I went off to college, and you know, there I am, you know, the whole, I mean, I had been following the Civil Rights Movement as I was kind of growing up and becoming a teenager, and I certainly was supportive of the Civil Rights Movement in a general sense, without doing anything. My dad did take me to hear Martin Luther King once, when he came to speak at a at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster. So, you know, I had some exposure to that, and was definitely sympathetic and supportive of, you know, Black people being treated equally, and having equal rights and voting rights and everything else that was not, it was not hard to support that, again, based upon how I was raised. When I have got to college, because of the Selective Service system and the necessity to register, that brought the issue of war and militarism much more, you know, it came home to me. I did decide to register. At that point, I did not even know that there was such a thing as a draft resistance movement, that was urging young men not to register as a way to protest the war. I did not know that when I when I registered in (19)67. But I did learn about it at college in my freshman year, and I increasingly, as I was learning more about the war and studying more about, you know, the history of, you know, African Americans in this country, I was definitely becoming more and more upset about all of that. Definitely upset when the TV news literally seemed like almost every day would give the body count, number of killed and it was in the hundreds every day, hundreds of people being killed. And I had done the study to realize that the United States was just wrong in what it was doing. It essentially had gone in right after French colonial colonialism in Indochina had been defeated. And the people there were in the process of trying to run their own country from, or countries. And the US had gone in to basically replace France as this colonial power in it. And everything had just gotten totally out of hand with the escalation and so many people being killed and just the devastation. So, I was torn up about that, I was really torn up. Eventually, that led me to turning in my draft card, led me to leaving college to work full time against the war primarily and that eventually led the course to the Catholic left and going into draft boards and storing draft files into prison and so on. So that was, that was kind of the that was, that was the, that was a trajec- trajectory very much based in how I was raised. Things I experienced, you know, growing up and then being exposed when I got to college to issues that I, you know, and people there in college who had views that I had had very little contact with. And that is how I changed.
SM: 29:56
Well, one of the- one line in in your book that really stood out- and there are many lines- but it is this one sentence. And it is when you describe that the-the event that changed your life was the event on April 4 (19)68.
TG: 30:15
Yeah, that was it. That was one of them. You know, Martin Luther King was killed. That was what finally pushed me. That turned me into an activist. That literally was the day I became an activist. And I have been going ever since I just, I was going in that direction, moving towards it. My thoughts were more and more along those lines, but I was not doing anything. I was, I guess, afraid. It was like a step into the unknown. Maybe I knew, I maybe I had some sense that if I did this, you know, who knows what would, I would become, but it just all built up that that that was the point at which I said, "Well, maybe they killed him. But you know, I can maybe do what I can." And I had, I felt I had to do something, it was like I was driven, I had to do something. So, I put up this little petition on the wall of the mail room where everybody got their mail, all the students got their mail, this was of course before the age of the internet. And about half the students signed it within a couple of days. And I sent it off to the to like Mike Mansfield, I believe, who was the Speaker of the House, and I forget who the person was in the Senate, I sent it off to them. Basically, calling upon-upon them to take action to change the conditions that Dr. King was trying to change. And then I you know, at that it just continued from there. And you-you know, I have never, I have never regretted the way for doing all of this. I have I have met people just recently, actually. Earlier this year, I was visiting my son and daughter in law and our, at that point, like three-month-old grandson. And I was talking with somebody, a friend of my son and daughter in law about, you know, my life and what I have been doing. And he, he was, you know, he had read my book, he had read my "Burglar for Peace “book. And he, you know, his, his feeling was that, you know, I had just made all these sacrifices, and I was probably alone, a lot of the time and etc. And my wife who has a kind of similar background to mine in terms of being an activist and an organizer for a long time. We said, "Well, not-not really." I mean, I said "we, when we embarked on the life that we did, we found there were other people who saw things the same way. And over time, you know, we developed friendships and connections that were very helpful and gave us support. And we joined organizations and networks." And that has been true ever since it is not, it is not as if it is not like there has not been really difficult times, times when I have had doubts, no question about that. I mean, that continues today. But in general, I feel really lucky to have had the experiences that I have that I did. And to come to this kind of a life. I I am very lucky.
SM: 33:20
I know that when the funeral was on TV for Dr. King, they showed the audience and Bobby Kennedy was sitting there. And the sun was coming through at Ebenezer Baptist Church, and it was landing right on him. And when he was killed a coupl- two months later on June 5 of (19)68, you know, I thought of that. Yeah, and I know you are working for him and so that must have shocked you too.
TG: 33:53
Yeah, that was definitely another big turning point that that was, you know, after Dr. King was killed. Yeah, I went to work for Bobby Kennedy. I was very much, you know, into activism. After, you know, and, and working for Bobby Kennedy was the main way that I was doing it. After he was killed two months later, I felt hopeless. I felt like, geez you cannot even like get somebody elected president who you support? I mean, what is happening to this country? You know, you had Richard Nixon spouting off all that he was spouting off, Spiro Agnew, all these really right winger, George Wallace. I mean, it was very similar to the dynamics today, it really was. The atmosphere was very similar to what is happening now with Trump and all the Trump followers and so I-I kind of look upon that as my, my summer of being radicalized. It was when I, as I said and say in my book, it was when I-I discovered Bob Dylan and I started listening to, you know, all his protest songs. And the one that I just stuck on was "Masters of War." That was someone that just really was so just right there in terms of my mood, you know. I actually, just a week or two ago, I was out riding my bike, I ride my bike kind of long-distance biking, I do that a few times a week. And, and every once in a while, something happens when I am riding my bike, something comes to mind. I mean, actually, a lot of times things come to my mind that I are kind of helpful in terms of just either my work, or just-just appreciating more about life or who I am. So, one, so one of the things that came to mind was that song Masters of War is that there was something that had happened I forget which-which particular outrage it was, it made me feel like, "Oh, my God, is there, what is happening to this country, is there any real hope?" So, you know, that next morning, I, that song just kind of reappeared it kind of came up from within me. And I just started while I am on my bike, trying to remember that versus just the anger and outrage, and they have kind of the agony of that song. And yeah, and it is, and it is, and it is still through the day, but-but the things are different today, there is, there are definitely differences between-between back then and today, and in a good way. It remains to be seen, who is going to win out right now, the forces of evil and the forces of try, trying to do things in a just way. I mean, that remains to be seen, but there are differences that are much more I would say in the favor of the good guys. That was true back then. And actually, what you said about what happened with SDS is a good example. You know, you have a you have a very strong movement among young people here, not just in the United States, but worldwide, you know, young people, particularly around the issue of a climate crisis, but not just that. They are, they are definitely in motion, they definitely see that need to take action, the need to speak out, to get organized. And there is nothing that I have seen that comes anywhere close as far as you know, the-the dynamics within that youth movement, to what happened back there, 50, 50 years ago–
SM: 37:31
Right.
TG: 37:31
-particular, particularly with SDS, there is nothing like it, nothing close to it. There is a more maturity, I would say among these young people, they understand the importance of community. They are not into kind of nihilistic adventuristic violent actions, because they are feeling so terrible and hopeless. You know, that is, that is, that is very important. That is very important.
SM: 37:54
You know, you lost two people that were probably heroes to you in Dr. King, and Bobby, and of course, many, you know, we are the same age and the front edge boomers are certainly affected by this. But they were also affected by the assassination of the President, United States in (19)63.
TG: 38:13
Right.
SM: 38:14
And I have often wondered, and I do not know if you thought of this a lot, I have- what that assas- assassination did in (19)63, and the two in (19)68. And I also put in there, Malcolm X and (19)65. And there is Medgar Evers, and the list goes on and on. It, what does this say about America?
TG: 38:39
Well, there is a very deep strain of white supremacy, racism, violence. You know, kind of a libertarianism kind of individualism, actually more than a libertarianism, very much individualism. There is a lot of that, for sure. And again, we see it in what exists right now. You know, this, this country has, the history of the US is a history in many ways of struggle between those who, you know, want to keep it, you know, something dominated by white men, white, rich, white men of property, right. And we see that today. The whole Republican Party. It is astounding, you know, in terms of the who is in Congress, virtually the whole Republican Party, that is their agenda. How do we maintain the rule of rich white man, [inaudible] straight men, right? That is, that is, that is what they are about. It is all about power. Principle is just in short supply. And then, you know, you have those on the left side of things who are in various different ways- there is all kinds of differences- but in various kinds of ways are trying to make a, quote, "more perfect union," trying to change the society. I mean, that is what the history of the US has been about starting with the Bill of Rights and the struggle over, you know, the Bill of Rights right after the revolution. And then, of course, the Civil War, the slavery and the women's suffrage movement and the labor movement of the (19)30s. You know, peace movements along the way, and the whole emergence of the LGBTQ movement in the late (19)60s on a on a mass scale and disability rights. I mean, just that, that is, that is the struggle in this country. And there really are, I do believe, and I think generally polls show this, there is a lot, there is definitely more people who want to move things forward, than there are people who want to basically go back to the old way of Jim Crow, and segregation And women being essentially second class citizens and gay people, you know, be trying to push them back into the closet and all those, that that whole social cultural dynamics, women not having the right to make decisions about their own bodies, in terms of children [inaudible], having children, all those things. I definitely believe that there is many more of us than there are of them. But you know, that does not necessarily mean as we can see right now with the laws that are being passed, they it is all over the country to suppress the vote when you look at the-the who is on the Supreme Court because of the machinations of Mitch McConnell–
SM: 41:41
Right.
TG: 41:42
-to prevent people from being nominated who should have been or who should not have been, you know, when it comes to what is, what is her name? Amy, Amy Coney Barrett, what one month before the election, all of a sudden, you know, she is put forward things like that.
SM: 42:00
Right.
TG: 42:01
So yeah, that is the history. And, you know, it is maybe that is the history of the world. I mean, if you look at what is happening in the world, it is just this constant battle between the forces of progress and moving forward.
SM: 42:14
Yep, I agree.
TG: 42:14
And those who just-just want to want to stay stuck in basically backwardness, you know, cultural and political backwardness.
SM: 42:23
I always thought that in the (19)60s when we were young, and this whole kind of utopian idea that-that the future would all be steps going forward. And now we hear so many times people saying we are taking two steps forward, and then we have to take one step backward. It you know, it is amazing. I like to talk to you about the on Ultra Resistance, the Catholic left and–
TG: 42:23
Right.
SM: 42:25
-certainly, in your book, you talk about the two important qualities that they that united them. First off, they were, they were believed in the Catholic Church's principles. But number two, is their- their reluctance and their protests against events like the Vietnam War and the draft, that it was the draft that united them. And could you talk a little bit about your experience with your draft card? And number two, you mentioned David Harris. I have interviewed him and-and I have interviewed some other people like David [inaudible], who was in that group in New York City that burned his draft card. Could you talk about the importance of the draft in really inciting people to the activists? Come–
TG: 43:39
Yeah no, no question back there in the (19)60s, the draft and the movement against the draft was-was a huge thing, in terms of eventually ending the war. And in terms of more and more people, you know, seeing, you know, the faults, and the deep-seated faults and problems of the society. And all the other movements, really the kind of, kind of emerged out of the Civil Rights Movement first, and then the peace movement and then everything else. I mean, the thing about a draft is that, you know, if you are a, back then if you are a young man, does not matter your color, your income, where you live, you have to register that to be part of the Selective Service system, and you are liable to be drafted. Of course, there, there were ways that you know, richer people like what happened with Trump and Bush, they were able to get into the either the National Guard in Bush's case or in Trump's case, you know, get a doctor to say that if he had, what was it, fallen arches or something with his feet. So, you know, there is definitely that is, that is all it was kind of part of the dynamic but in general, everybody was affected. The vast majority of people were affected by this and when there is a hot war with hundreds of people dying every day and people coming back in body bags and without arms and legs and with their minds really messed up and PTSD and everything else. You know, that can have big impacts upon a society and upon, you know, a whole generation of young people. So that is what happened. That is what happened when it came to the Vietnam War. I mean, this the Vietnam War was not World War Two, we were not fighting against Hitler and fascism. You know, we were kind of the opposite. We were fighting on behalf, on the side of really the some of the most dictatorial elements in the southern part of Vietnam, that, that is the ones who had actually collaborated with the French when it came to colonialism. So as-as the truth kind of eventually comes out, and people realize that this is an unjust war that we should not be in, and yet here is, here is so many young men who are liable to have to go and fight it. Yeah, over time, that-that, that it was, it was, it was, it was a context, it was a set of realities that definitely impacted your ability to build a big strong movement.
SM: 46:15
How did you feel? How did you feel inside when you yourself were [inaudible] going in front of people, regarding your card?
TG: 46:25
I am sorry, what was that about going before people?
SM: 46:28
Yeah, when people saw it, when you, you, you know, if you are on stage, or mailing your card in or whatever it was, what was going through your mind?
TG: 46:38
I was just so angry, and so upset. That was the dynamic that was driving me. I-I was a shy kid growing up. I mean, I really was. I mean, I was actually really shy in a lot of ways. When I was no longer a kid, for quite a while. I am less shy now, finally. But you know, I, it is like, the war consumed my life. I mean, it just consumed me, it was something that I could not forget. And it was just such a monstrous evil. That, you know, I know, I knew some people who, you know, were going to Vietnam, who were threatened with it, you know, it was just this all-consuming thing. And I was not the only one that-that was true for. Again, that is, that is why you had a direct Resistance Movement develop and why you eventually have a Catholic left develop with more militant actions. Yeah, I think- thinking. I mean, the thinking was, you know, what you did when you were trying to understand, you know, reading books and trying to write what it is all about. But then at a certain point, you know, I mean, you obviously had to keep thinking about what-what should you do, what you should do. But, you know, Bonhoeffer had a really, really good, good statement, he said, something about he was like, he was writing to a young person from prison, he said something like, "your generation..." No, it sounds like we have "We have spent too much time in thought, and, and debate, believing that, that is the way we should be about living our lives for you." He is saying, to this young person, "Your thinking will be much more related to your responsibilities in action."
SM: 48:42
Yep.
TG: 48:43
There was like a connection between thinking and action that he made. And that is all that stuck with me, that that quote always stuck with me. I think that is the way I am. I think I continue to be like that. I do a lot of thinking, that is for sure. But I eventually do feel it is really important for us to go somewhere and not just kind of be out there.
SM: 49:04
It is the importance of deeds over dreaming.
TG: 49:07
Yeah.
SM: 49:08
Of what could be, let us make it by doing it through deeds.
TG: 49:11 Yeah.
SM: 49:11
I, your discussion of prison, and all those experiences in prison, I think are important too. Because I can remember and you, your- you really loved Dr. King, he often talked about if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then maybe you do not really have beliefs. And, and of course, the letter from Birmingham jail is one of the greatest things ever to read. And I am, I am a firm believer in that. And so, you have to take that risk. And there are too many people in this world who are indifferent and silent, fearful of losing their security and so forth. And all of that goes away when you create a deed like you have done in your life and other activists have done. Your thoughts about, you know, Dr. King, and that whole philosophy about, you must be willing to go to jail for your beliefs.
TG: 49:31
Right. Yeah. I have to think where to begin. You know, jail is certainly not a fun place to be. The reality is, of course, that overwhelmingly, the people who are in jail are people who come from low income, low wealth backgrounds who are Black or indigenous or Latino. That is, that is certainly the reality in the United States. So, you know, jail can be romanticized, it is not, it is, it is, it is a hard place to be day to day for sure. But if you are unwilling to take risks of going to jail, if you are unwilling to basically voluntarily suffer. You know, fasting is another example, you know, you are, you are, you are almost taking away a very important weapon, you know, a nonviolent weapon that we need to have. There is a, there is a lot of history that shows that when people are willing to take risks, when they are willing to step out of kind of their usual kind of roles in society, when they are, when they are willing to, you know, to go to jail if necessary, for an important cause, that, that is, that is definitely a component of building a successful movement for change. If you do not, if the people who believe in something are only willing to go so far, you know, it kind of gets picked up on by others that well, yeah, your ideas are good, but it is not that important, or probably not going to happen et. cetera, you know, there is this need for, it is almost like a disruption of the routine. There is a need for something to be introduced into a dynamic that is new and different, that makes people think, you know, make people think, "Why would they, why would they do that? Why would they be willing to go to jail? Why would they get- why would they be willing to get arrested or not eat for days or weeks?" So that, that, that is, that is, it is an important component of societal change. I mean, probably the best example would be Jesus really, or one of the best examples. I mean, if he had been unwilling to, you know, stick with it, and he knew what he was getting into when he was going there to Jerusalem. He knew what the risks were, were, he may have known exactly what was going to happen if you believe certain things about Jesus, but you are cert- there is no question just historically that he was he was very smart man and he knew what he was risking, and, but he stuck with it. And he did not run. He was willing to face it. And look what has happened because of his courage.
SM: 53:20
Right.
TG: 53:20
His willingness to do that.
SM: 53:21
Yeah.
TG: 53:22
Look, what-what, what exists worldwide. You know, there is a lot of corruption. There is or there is certainly been a lot of corruption, a lot of bad dynamics within organized religion, certainly Christianity with both Catholic and Protestantism. And you have like, right wing conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists who just really distort the truth, the really certainly what Jesus was all about, the Old Testaments kind of another story, it is much more of a mixed bag. But certainly, when it comes to Jesus and his life, there is a lot of distortion of what he really was about that goes on. But-but you know, another person like that, that has been important to me is that James Connolly, who was a leader of the Irish Freedom Movement, he was also a socialist and a labor organizer in the, I guess, the late (18)00s, early (19)00s. He was part of the Easter Uprising in (19)60s, in Ireland, and he-he was not, he was captured with others, when that uprising failed, and, you know, I-I read a biography of his and, you know, he was he was a socialist, but he also was a Christian. He did have religious beliefs. He was also a feminist very interestingly, he got, in many ways he was he was kind of ahead of his time, in terms of a lot of man, a lot of people, a lot of men on the left actually. And, and he would write about and he-he felt that there, there that in terms of again, moving the process forward of social change- in his case, trying to get independence for Ireland from Britain and for a more just society- that was much more respectful of working-class people and so on, that some people were going to have to take risks and maybe die. And he ended up, he ended up being killed because of those beliefs and his willingness to act on them. You know, there is a saying, I am not sure I am going to get it quite right. But it is something like, if you do not, if you are not, if you are not willing to, if your beliefs are such that you are not willing to die for them, your beliefs, beliefs are probably not very deep. That is not quite right. But I think that is true.
SM: 54:19
Oh, okay. Yeah. I know that you have talked in depth about the trials that the ultra-resistance went through, particularly the Harrisburg Nine and the Catonsville Trials, could you describe the lessons that you learned from these trials, and how important they are when trying to, you know, let the world know that the issues that you are trying to reach out to the world to get to know better?
TG: 56:25
Yeah, well you know, it is really, really interesting that you are raising that now. I was just part of a trial. A one-one week ago, today, November 12, in Wilmington, Delaware, I was part of a grandparents' walk, walk for our grandchildren. We went from Scranton, Pennsylvania, to Wilmington, this was late June of this year. And you know, calling upon, you know, President Biden to be a strong leader on issue of climate and social justice. And at the end of the of this, it was like eight days of a walk and sometimes driving in between Scranton and Wilmington, 15 of us got ourselves arrested in front of a major complex of Chase Bank, at the credit card headquarters for Chase Bank and the United States. And Chase Bank happens to be the number one financer of the fossil fuel industry in the world. And they have been they have been that for the last five years, there has been reports that have come out analyzing banks and their role in financing, you know, new gas, new oil, new coal, and so on. And so, we-we had this action. And we were offered, paying 10, a $10 fine, and then that would be the end of it. And most of us decided not to take that offer we decided we wanted to have a trial, insist on our right to a trial. So, we had, we had one a week ago. And the thing that we did in that trial, that is the same as that I and others did in, in my first trial in Roches- Rochester, New York. This was in (19)70, one of the draft board raids was in Rochester, New York, and in (19)70, and seven of the eight of us defended ourselves. We were our own lawyers, and what we found during that trial, and then what we found just a week ago, was that our doing that, you know, and we were prepared, we did have a lawyer who was an advisor who was involved with us but, you know, we were our own lawyers, essentially. And in both cases, the use of that tactic of being a defendant defending themselves, really, really opened up the courtroom, it made it possible to bring in the information and kind of backed, stuff that backed up our claim that what we were doing, what we did may have broken the law but it was not a crime, or that there was or that there was a much greater crime that we were addressing. In the case of the Rochester trial, it was the Vietnam War in particular. In the case of this trial a week ago, it was climate change, climate disruption and the role of Chase Bank being a major enabler of the expansion of fossil fuels, which of course is the driver of climate change.
SM: 59:34
Right.
TG: 59:34
And you know, we were really very effective at getting stuff in, the judge, this kind of justice of the peace judge was a woman. We were surprised really how much we got in and it was because we were organized. We actually were respectful. We were not going in there to disrupt the courtroom. We really wanted to make our case. So, so my less- you know, it was kind of driven home again to me this lesson that the court, the court can be a place where you can, again, really have impacts, have real impacts on people where you can show, you know, really-really, it can be a platform for speaking and for putting forward your beliefs and articulating, articulating them. And that and-and that there is something behind them, you are not just kind of talking. You are there because you took an action, you were willing to do something with your belief and risk, you know, time in jail. And so, yeah, I definitely in terms of a life lesson, I do believe that people, people being willing to do a nonviolent civil disobedience, and being willing to then go to trial, and, and defend the action and get at the "why" of why the actions happened to the extent that, that is done well, that that can be a very, very effective technique and a tactic in building a movement for the kind of change we need.
SM: 1:01:15
That was brilliantly said, very- I want to ask also about the sections on your prison life. What did you learn in prison?
TG: 1:01:27
Well, the- you know, the number one thing I would say is, I, you know, when you are in prison, you know, you are a prisoner. Generally, you do not have a lot to do during the day, you know, most cases the jobs that are available that you are assigned to, is really not a lot of work to do, they kind of make work. So you have a lot of time just to observe. And one of the things that I observed in the prisons that I was in over the, just about a year that I was going to prison was the kind of the structure of things, how they work that you had this whole hierarchy of, you know, you had the warden at the top on the top, then you had kind of the guards with their officers, they were kind of a next level. Then, of course, you had some other staff there at the prison. But then even among the prisoners, like I particularly saw this at Danbury prison. Danbury, you had a setup where they were, the best, most of the people at Danbury, including me, lived in dormitories where there was like 50 to 100 people in one big room, with your, with your bed and your locker. Essentially, that was what you had, where you could keep stuff in your locker. And, but there were there were individual rooms, that you could say were kind of like cells, but they tend to be more like rooms, you know, they were locked at night, that kind of thing. But I noticed that those rooms which were, the better, better housing accommodations went to primarily the more white collar white, you know, people who have broken the law, the criminals, the people who were there for white collar crime, those were primarily who got those. So I saw that. And then I saw basically, the rest of the kind of the prison society of course, which was the prisoners, who in the case, of Danbury, again, you know, many Black and Latino, many work working class whites, low income, whites, in vast majority of cases. So just-just the kind of the class dynamics the kind of the structure of how the prison society worked. I just realized that it was pretty similar to how society is structured here. And in the outside world, it is different, you know, it is not as stark, of course, because you are in, you are not in prison, can tend to be hidden. But you-you, you have a similar a similar dynamic here in terms of kind of various classes. So that was, that was one that was one big thing that, for me, came out of prison. On a personal level, I would say it was very valuable in terms of particularly my interactions with-with Black people, you know, I had-had very little contact before going to prison with, you know, individuals, you know, Black-Black people where I grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, it was overwhelmingly white, very, very few, very, very few Black or you know, Latino people were where I lived and where I went to school, but in prison it was different. And so I developed friendships. And, you know, I just basically came to learn that, you know, basically we are all the same ultimately you know, there are differences in culture, there is certainly differences in the way society structures things in terms of poverty and classes and so on. But underneath it all, we all are really the same in terms of our desires, our fears, our anxieties, etc. I just, I just learned that by interacting on a daily basis with people who, you know, I had not interacted with. And I guess it was kind of true also, with kind of more lower income working class whites when I, the first prison I went to in Ashland, Kentucky was a youth prison. Because I was 21 at the time, and a lot of the of the people who were there were from Appalachia, or Appalachia, and they were there for stealing a car and they had been prison, they had been sentenced to up to six years in prison for stealing a car. And they would get out, the sooner they would get out would be when they kind of became less rebellious, and basically more adjusted and so on. But, you know, I just had more day to day interactions with kind of, you know, Appalachian, you know, young white men, and kind of a similar thing, right. So that-that was, that was definitely a really very big, positive thing for me just being exposed to people from different races, different classes or cultures. And again, seeing that whatever their views, whatever their idiosyncrasies, whatever, in some cases, they are, you know, the fact that they were really kind of messed up emotionally, acted out, things like that-that, you know, there but for fortune go I, right that, that, that anyone, I could have been any one of those people if I had been just born to, you know, different parents and a different, you know, reality. It was just luck that I ended up the way I did ultimately, and that I really needed to never forget that-that underneath it all, each of us we are pretty similar, and we want many of the same things.
SM: 1:07:18
For people that will be listening to this interview now and 50 years from now, who if you could describe these three individuals in your own words, who was Philip Berrigan, who was Daniel Berrigan and who was Eliza- Elizabeth McAllister?
TG: 1:07:40
Well, Phil Berrigan, is pretty easy. Phil was one of the best organizers I think I have ever met. You know, he was a really, he was a tough guy in a good way. He was very strong, very determined. He knew how to talk to people in a respectful way. He knew how to build community, how to bring people together, I just experienced that particularly at Danbury prison when I was there with him and with Dan Berrigan for about six months. He you know, he had his rough edges, he talks about them in his, in his own autobiography, you know, he sometimes could definitely get impatient and try to impose really, his views. But I would not say that was the main thing about Phil at all. And, you know, he really, he really took the teachings of Christianity seriously, the best of Christianity seriously and he tried to live them out in his life, particularly, I guess, after World War Two, he was exposed to a lot in World War Two. That certainly sobered him and made him realize how war is just a such a terrible thing. Yeah, that is what I say about Phil. I actually, I would also say he was somebody I learned eventually, who, even when you did have big disagreements with them that, you know, ultimately, he was able to, as I learned and I hope that I have continued to be, was that that, that differences between people in general should not be a reason why there cannot be some connection, some relationships, some way of continuing to talk and be in contact. So that was something I think, ultimately learned from Phil and kind of my own interactions with him. As far as Dan, Dan was not so much a good organizer, I mean, he did do it. He was much more of a you know, very creative, really very brilliant big picture guy. He saw things, he saw kind of a bigger picture he, I think, had a sense of history, a sense of I do not know, just-just kind of the what, the vicissitudes of life, kind of the angst, the good things, the bad things. Either roll with it. I do not know, there was kind of a depth, a depth to Dan, I would say that was not quite the same with Phil. Dan was just really wise, very wise. Very wise person. And as far as Elizabeth-Elizabeth, she was also a very determined person, she really definitely had an inner strength. She-she got involved, I think into political activity later in life. And perhaps getting into the Cath- Catholic left what she did, it was it was not I do not think it was so much her thing at that point in time. I think I would say that, she was, she was a good organizer, but not as good as, as Phil. I do not know, I honestly, I had run ins with-with Elizabeth in a way I really did not generally with Phil and Dan and ultimately, I did have run in with Dan actually. But I had more difficulty with Liz and kind of the work that we did together. So, but the thing about her is that she is stuck with it, you know. She not doing very well right now as we are speaking. I am not sure how many more years she has. But she has just been a warrior. She has like not, she has continued to take action. She was there and prisoner for what, a year and a half I believe it was for, you know, an action against nuclear weapons in Georgia. She has refused to, to give up and has stuck with it. And her perseverance is definitely an example to learn from. She was the mother as Phil was the father of three young people. I know one of them, Frida Berrigan pretty well and Frida is great. Yeah, that those-those have been my experiences and how I would see them.
SM: 1:12:51
Let me I want to, for the record, just have to Daniel Berrigan quotes here. And then I have got one quote from you. And then I will come back with another question. But this is from page 44 of your book. And this is Daniel: "A Christian can confront the law of the land. That law which protects the war makers even as it prosecutes the peacemakers. The Christians can refuse to pay taxes. They can aid and abet and harbor people like myself who are in legal jeopardy for resistance, along with AWO Wells. They can work with GIS on bases helping those young men to awaken to the truth of their condition and their society. In coffee houses or with hospitality in their homes, they can organize within their professions and neighborhoods and churches, so that a solid wall of conscience confronts the deaths makers, they can make it increasingly difficult for local draft boards to function. There are a hundred nonviolent means of resistance up to now untried, or half tried or badly tried. But the peace will not be one without such serious and constant sacrificial courageous actions on the part of large numbers of good men and women. The peace will not be won without the moral equivalent of the loss and suffering and separation, that the war itself is exacting." And then the other quote, and then I am going to have your quote as well, on page 27, and 28 here. So yeah, this is Dan again, speaking: "We say killing is disorder, life and gentleness and community and unselfishness is the only order we recognize. For the sake of that order, we risk our liberty, our good name. The time has passed when good people can remain silent, when obedience can segregate them from public risk, when the poor can die without defense. We ask our fellow Christians to consider in their hearts a question, which has tortured us night and day since the war began." The Vietnam War, "How many must die before our voices are heard? How many must be torn-tortured, dislocated, starved, maddened? How long was the world's resources be raped in the service of legalized murder? When at what point will we say no to this war? We have chosen to say, with the gift of our liberty, if necessary, our lives, the violence stops here, the death stops here, the suppression of truth stops here, this war stops here." Those are powerful words. And then, and then here is a very powerful words from you, Ted, and this is on page 21. And here it is, here: "As I as I read, and thought, the more I became first confused, then sad, then angry, and now moved to the point where I must take a stand against what I feel is ruining the lives of many young people in this country, as well as the lives of millions of people in the third world. I make this protest against death, I make this affirmation of life because I deeply believe the United States actions have caused and are causing such a high degree of suffering, and have destroyed so many lives that I must cry out against these actions, by this break, age and non-compliance with the selective service system. I do so with a feeling of inward peace now that I am no longer tied to what I consider wrong." I just want to quote these because I thought they were great thoughts from your book. Any thoughts on any of them?
TG: 1:16:49
Well, yeah, you know there really is an inward piece to living out your belief, as much as possible. I mean, the reality for a lot of people in this world is they need to survive, they need to do things to, you know, put bread on the table, pay the rent, you know, clothes for your kids and yourself, etc. That definitely means sometimes you just have to do that. And you take what you can get, if you cannot get the kind of job you would really like. So, I know that reality, and I have, I have dealt with that myself over the years in terms of, you know, finding ways of paying those bills. But-but there is an inner peace that comes from your doing as much as you can, as best as you can to change the world in whatever way that you are trying to do it. You know, whatever issue or issues with whatever perspective you have on it, you know, and that can change over time, people evolve and change as they learn more. So that, yeah, in terms of the inward peace thing, I resonate with that, that is still true. You know, I sleep pretty well at night. Like I think I, my conscience is pretty, pretty clear. I feel like I have done what I could, and that does make my life better. And I have met so many people, so many good people as a result of this work. That, you know, I never would have met otherwise. In terms of what Dan said, I really was, I was saying, yeah, that is, that is kind of a good example of what I was trying to say in terms of the kind of person Dan was. Dan, he saw the bigger picture, he understood that people come in to, in this case, the peace movement against the Vietnam War at different points in their life in terms of what they are able to do or what they are willing to do. And-and it all counts, right, all of it counts. You know, that that was very reflected in, you know, in some of what was that Dan was saying there as well as obviously, the, the kind of what I was saying in terms of how if you are willing to risk something that you believe in. That is, that is really the way of the world when it comes to how it changes, you know, good things do not happen you know, without risk, they really do not. And heart risk and hard work, no question about it. You know, the thing. Just going back to your other question, Phil, pretty much from my experience when I was with him, and working with him, and afterwards when I was not working with him for many years. That was, he was not like that so much for certainly during the Vietnam War, Phil was like, you know, "You should do more. You should, you should, you should get involved with what we were doing, that if you are really serious about stopping this war, you should go into a draft board and help us destroy draft files or remove them and burn them somewhere away from the draft board, so people do not get sent to Vietnam." He was he was, he challenged people, you know, I experienced that there in Danbury prison when he organized, what was for me my first long hunger strike, he organized a group of [inaudible] to go on a hunger strike that ended up going 34 days in connection with issues there in the prison, as well as, as the war. He kind of brought him the tiger cages in Vietnam where and then I guess women were tortured in the way they were just kept in these cells and so on, it was a big issue at the time. And he-he organized this fast around prison issues and connected to the tiger cages. Yeah, he was he was the he was a really determined leader to push as much as could be pushed and willing to take these kinds of risks. Dan took risks too, no question about it. He definitely was a risk taker, but he had that big, broader perspective. And, you know, the two of them together, were a team in a lot of ways, they brought their different strengths. And they, they, they have they did a lot back then then and it is still going on in terms of the impact that they have.
SM: 1:21:26
You also [inaudible] put in here, just briefly, the-the fact that when the anti-war [inaudible] Ultra resistance was really happening, the connection between the Catholic Church and Pope John, because, you know, anybody who studied the Catholic Church, about the Second Vatican Council remembers Pope John and I, and of course he, you know, so-so they were deep religious Catholics, which both Americans were. They are living the Bible, they are living what the Pope is saying, as well, which is, and I can remember a quote here and yours, "Make the church relevant to 20th century consciousness," and written with respect to the war, racism and poverty.
TG: 1:22:10
Right.
SM: 1:22:10
And I mean, it is so you know, and of course, the drafting, you know the draft was the other reason because of connection and the greater crime and everything, but your book is, is brilliant in so many ways, because anyone who wants to learn about the (19)60s, the anti-war movement, the Catholic Church's involvement, you put everything together, and it makes you think. And it is just tremendous. I-I just, I am, my final questions are just a few general questions. What are your thoughts on the boomer generation, the generation you belong to? These are just commentaries? So, were you positive or negative about the generation?
TG: 1:22:53
Well, you know, there was variation, it is not like you can say it is one thing, I mean, you had all kinds of, different kinds of people. I mean, I think in the sweep of history, that we, we played a very important role in trying, in helping to, to move this country in the world forward, you know, the (19)60s and into the 19)70s, that whole period was a key period in terms of-of, of changing this country. And, and it was, it was what was started then is continuing today. Take the women's movement, the women's movement, kind of the, I guess, it was called the third wave, the women's, the women's movement emerged in a lot of ways at first out of the Civil Rights Movement. You know, women who went south and risked their lives, fighting for the rights for Black people and equality for Black people. You know, eventually they came back to where they lived, their communities that were, you know, white, basically white and, and they had had their consciousness raised, and their willingness to speak up and take action, and they started doing it around sexism, and, you know, male dominance and disrespect and abuse and violence against women. And that movement, continu- that-that, you know, things have just continued since that time, there is always again these efforts that are made to move, go backwards and to strip away many of those gains that have been won. But there, there are a lot of them that are here to stay. I mean, there is clearly major changes in this country. So, you know, if you just take that issue, and then you can look at other issues, and it is similar. I think that our generation that I was part of and you were part of, we had an impact that continues. I really do believe that
SM: 1:24:51
In your view, when did the (19)60s begin, and when did it end if it did end?
TG: 1:24:58
Well, I mean for me, that began around (19)68. But that is really just for me personally. From my reading of history, it seems like it really began. I mean, you had the Civil Rights Movement, which started in the (19)50s, right? That that was really the, really the movement that got things going. That because so much came out of the Civil Rights Movement, including the peace movement, the women's movement, and so on. I guess if you are talking about a movement of the (19)60s, mid (19)60s, I would say after Johnson was elected as the peace candidate, and then within a few months, he basically becomes the war president. That that really, in terms of the antiwar movement, I would say that is when that began. That really, it did not really exist too much. There was some people, some of the some groups that like the War Resisters League and the Fellowship of Reconciliation that had been around for a long time, and they existed, but in terms of a mass movement that really was began to change society as a whole, I would say it was not until (19)65.
SM: 1:26:13
All right, one of the things that you probably heard, too, that really, of the generation, the boomer generation of 74 million, only approximately 7 percent of that group was involved in any sort of activism. I think sometimes when people mention that they, it is kind of a negative on the boomer generation, but and in respect-
TG: 1:26:38
Right.
SM: 1:26:38
-I think it is a positive because if 7 percent and do what-what they did, that is pretty good.
TG: 1:26:44
Yeah well, you know, I have read, there are people who have studied social movements very closely. And they I am forgetting some, some of the names of the people who, who did these studies, but what has kind of come out of that is that the that if 3 percent, or maybe if three and a half percent, but three, if three to three and a half percent of a population are willing to be active, to take action, to go to demonstrations, you know, to do various other things these days, it would have to do with the internet and, you know, social media, as well as demonstrations and actions, that if you have 3 percent of a society that is, that is really out there an active, that is what you need for significant social change to happen. So, if indeed, it was 7 percent, that is double that number.
SM: 1:27:37
Yeah.
TG: 1:27:37
So that is not so bad.
SM: 1:27:39
No, I agree. There is so many reasons why the Vietnam War ended, but what the what, in your opinion, what was the number one reason why the war ended?
TG: 1:27:49
Well, if you had, the number one reason. I would say, the GIS turning against the war, who were in Vietnam. I think that was the breaking point, you know, clearly the resistance of the Vietnamese to try to keep control of their own country. Without that, of course, things would have ended up very different, but-but certainly from the standpoint of, of the United States, it was the GI resistance that made a huge difference. Everything began to change when-when that happened. Yeah, that is what I would say.
SM: 1:28:34
The Vietnam memorial. Have you been there?
TG: 1:28:37
I have been yeah.
SM: 1:28:38
Yeah, well I know I moved back from California in (19)83. The first place I went to was the memorial, took the train down from Philly but Jan Scruggs founded the, along with some other major Vietnam veterans, the heal- and the Vietnam Memorial, and he wrote a book called The Healing of a Nation. And what role do you think that wall has done to heal the nation? I know it is healed a lot of the veterans and the families of those who died. I mean, I see it every year when I go down there. [inaudible] tremendous job, because Vietnam veterans are treated so poorly when they return home. And in (19)82, that was a mark, demarcation right there because that now there was a good feeling that they had served. Your thoughts on the importance of the wall and healing this nation from this war?
TG: 1:29:36
I honestly could not really answer that with any real knowledge. I know about the wall. You know, my sense is that the way it was done with listing all of the names of everybody who died, rather than, you know, what can often be done for these kinds of things, you know, putting a general on a horse or a general, you know, in a military vehicle or just a general up on a on a statue and, you know, that kind of a memorial or a monument. That is, that is, you know, that is a very different kind of a monument. So having all the names of everybody who died, is- was-was a was a good thing to bring home, helped to bring home the reality of war and what it does, what it does for people, [inaudible] has really major impacts on lots and lots of [inaudible]. [crosstalk] I would think that has something to do with it to the extent what you are saying is true, which I just do not know. I would think that is why.
SM: 1:30:51
Right. I, this is a criticism I heard from those who were against the anti-war movement in any of the activists in that era. How would you respond to the- this person's opinion, they are troublemakers who only care about their but their beliefs, not the beliefs of others? They are selfish and not selfless. Again, they only see a crisis from their own point of view. And these are critics of those people who are activists who challenge the system. And I quote this as well, that many times when people are hiring people today in the world of work, they want predictable people as opposed to unpredictable people. I feel activists are unpredictable, and they are the best people. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, the people that are a little different than are willing to challenge the system. And this mentality that is still out there. I mean, when Governor Rhodes was in charge of the people in at Kent State back in (19)70, you heard what he talked about, the brown shirts, the worst of our society. And of course, he you know, it was ridiculous. But just your thoughts on that?
TG: 1:32:13
Well, there were, they were definitely a minority. There were people in, I mean, it is like this for any movement, really. There were people in the peace movement, who were more frankly into it, for not the best reasons. And who, as a result, eventually, they dropped out of it, because they really should not have been there in the first place maybe or they realized that they should move on. But that, for the vast majority of people, certainly my experiences, involvement came from, from a really good place. It came out of, I mean in some cases it came just out of real personal fear of being killed or losing your leg or your eyes or being maimed for life or going crazy from being sent to war. And that is totally understandable and legitimate. But I would, I would, I would certainly say that my experience back then, and since then, is it in general, most people who get involved in these kinds of movements, you know, they are doing it for the right reason. If-if they end up, you know, kind of going off and not being such, not being the kind of people, they should be, again, it might have something to do with the leadership of these movements. That that has to be looked at. You know, you look at today, I mean, you compare Donald Trump to Joe Biden, right. And Joe Biden's really not my guy. I supported Bernie Sanders, both in (20)16 and (20)20. Although I did actually, I did a 32 day, they asked a hunger strike to defeat Trump. I did not eat for 32 days in the month October-
SM: 1:34:08
Wow.
TG: 1:34:08
-last year, because I wanted to Biden to win. But you look at the difference in terms of, you know, Trump, and like the Republicans in Congress and the way so many of them are, I mean, jeez. I do not I think there is a real difference in kind of truthfulness, and the general quality of people's lives between the Republicans and the Democrats and the, and some of the progressive independents like Bernie Sanders who work with the Democrats. You know, there is, that is, you know, definitely there is Democrats who take a lot of money from, you know, big corporations, from the fossil fuel industry. And you know, I do not agree with some of that kind of an approach but in general, when it comes to movements, when it comes to people active in essentially kind of progressive movements trying to advance to a different kind of society, my experience is that you meet an awful lot of good people when you are in those movements. Not-not perfect people, but good people, good hearted people who are, who are trying, as best they can. And again, you know, I will come back to some of what I said earlier that it is our res- those of us who, you know, play leadership roles in those movements, it is our responsibility to do everything we can to have the movements, that have the organizations that are part of, that makeup those movements, that are key to those movements, be about a very different way of interacting with one another, a very different way of living our lives, of really taking building of community seriously, helping people to-to become stronger, and to develop good leadership skills themselves. You know, that-that, and we cannot be into just, you know, following individual leaders, we need to be about the importance of what is called group centered leadership. I talk about that in this new book of mine, that-that is really critical that, that if you are building an organization, you are building a movement that is about social change, if you do not have an internal culture that is all about, you know, working together, and not just putting up one person or a few people as, as the leaders, that that is this conscious process of a continual working together, growing together, developing together, trying to build that kind of a culture for the movement, if that does not happen, you know, sooner or later, things are going to go the wrong way. But they do not have to. I really think if we are conscious about that issue, that is, that is what I really tried to hit away at one of the key things in this second book of mine, then I think we, then I really do believe we can change the world. I really do.
SM: 1:37:00
I have two final questions, and then we are done. Who are the heroes of the (19)60s and early (19)70s? And who are the villains of the (19)60s and early (19)70s?
TG: 1:37:10
Well, the villains are easier. Certainly, Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover, off the top of my head that-that is those would be the two ones I would first think of in terms of villains definitely. LBJ, you know, certainly he, he was kind of a mixed bag, he did some good things in terms of support for the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and so on. But the war, he was totally taken in and very problematic. In terms of the heroes, I mean, again, clearly the two Berrigan brothers and you know, many other people who were active in that movement. Dave Dellinger, I think of Dave Dellinger, who was a good friend. He was a wonderful human being and wonderful nonviolent leader. Gosh, who else? I mean, there is your they are all there were all those different movements, the women's movement, right. I do not know who were some of the leaders in the women's movement, but in that movement, the American Indian Movement that you mentioned, Russell Banks, Dennis Means, Bella Cortes. Yeah, you had a lot of a lot of different leaders from the (19)60s. In terms of the peace movement, I guess I really would see Dave Dellinger here as being a really, really important in terms of what he was about what he stood for. And then of course, you know, Phil and Dan Berrigan, they-they were standouts.
SM: 1:38:59
My last question is because you have been obviously most of your life an activist and organizer. And, but what frustrates you the most? Because you have been a lifelong activist and-and what inspires you the most from being that lifelong activist?
TG: 1:39:21
Well, you know, I guess the frustrating thing is that so many so many days, it feels like everything is just going too slowly. You know, especially now with the climate crisis and how urgent that issue is. And there is a there is a time there is a, there is a deadline for that. I do not think we have passed it yet, but we are getting close to the tipping points, tipping points that could just lead to really horrific societal upheaval and disillusion and so on. So especially when it comes to that issue, the slowness with which change happens. That is very frustrating. I do know, one of the things that keeps me hopeful is that I do know that history does show that, you know, you have a, history usually moves through a process of social change happens, where, you know, for a long time, kind of under the surface, it seems like not much is happening, but things are happening. And then all of a sudden, you know, you never know exactly what is, what leads to it, but all of a sudden, things can change. And you can you have this kind of like a political tipping point moment, and all of a sudden, is this kind of, it is this dynamic that takes over. And that is where you can have, you know, revolutions. Sometimes a good one, sometimes they degenerate, frankly. So that, again, those are lessons we need to learn how to how to make sure that any major changes that happens stick and do not degenerate. But yeah, so and in terms of so that, so your question was about frustrations. The other was what inspires me, what inspires me is right now the young people who are coming forward, I was just on a call this morning. With two young people, I think they were both in their 20s, they are both in their 20s. We had a wonderful conversation about you know, how we can be more effective in the organizing work that we are doing. You know, there are an awful lot of really dedicated sharp young people who have learned how to work together a lot of different races and cultures involved in this kind of youth upsurge that I see that, that is definitely inspiring. You know, without-without young people being involved, it is very hard to bring about change but when young people are involved, a lot of things can change and actually much more quickly.
SM: 1:41:57
Very good. Ted, I want to thank you very much for this interview. I am going to turn the tape off now and then I will give you some final comments. Hold on a second.
TG: 1:42:05
Okay.
SM: 1:42:05
Hold on. That was a long one. I just, make sure I got the, the recording just ended but I hit the, it is still recording here. I do not know why so I hit the stop. Still recording.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Ted Glick
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-03-29
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Janice Quinter
Year of Graduation
1973
Biographical Text
Janice (Ebenstein) Quinter attended Harpur College from 1970-1973 and graduated with a Bachelors in Anthropology and a minor in Afro-American Studies. After working at the American Museum of Natural History she was awarded a Master's degree in Anthropology and Certificate in Museum Studies from New York University in 1980. She spent her career as an archivist in research repositories in every borough in New York City, including 24 years at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, of the New York Public Library. Janice is happy to have contributed to increasing human knowledge about many areas of study.
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Janice Quinter
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 29 March 2019
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
JQ: 00:08
My present name is Janice Quinter. That is QUINTER. My unmarried name is Ebenstein EBENSTEIN. I was at Harpur from 1970 to (19)73 for three years as a transfer student living in Jackson. And I am happy to be conducting the interview about my experiences in very fun kind of memories of Harpur College at Binghamton.
IG: 00:39
Very good, very good. So maybe you could tell us where you grew up and what your family background was like, and whether education was encouraged and your family; what your parents did.
JQ: 01:00
My parents were born in the 1910s in New York City. They were born of Jewish parents, my two brothers and myself are Jewish. I have two older brothers. My parents did not attend college. They graduated from high school in New York City, which at that time was like getting at least a community college degree, if not-not more advanced than that. My mother loved the English in English language in foreign languages. So, she learned to articulate the language very carefully and to spell and love literature. She- we lived in a housing project, which I am very proud of actually, in Rockaway Beach called the "Arverne Housing Project." Completed just a few months before I was born, I was born in 1951. My parents moved in-in late 1950. My father was a war veteran and was stationed in Europe and fought in Germany, Luxembourg, and France. My parents met here in New York City in Manhattan. And would married at 19- f- f- knowing to the for five years--my parents were married in 1942. My father sold housewares because his family had done similar kinds of things. And my parents, my father was in it was in the military for about five-five and a half years. He was drafted in 1942, served eleven months war broke out. He married my mother within a short period of time after that, and then went off to war for another four years. And my brother was born in 1943. So, my father so my brother, a short period of time my mother lived with her parents up in Harlem at that time. And my mother worked when she needed to work because we were in a housing project, which was a wonderful place to live in in Rockaway right next to the beach, with many interesting, very nicely behaved students, kids at the time and parents who most of them had had fathers who are war veterans. So, the housing project was built to accommodate the war veterans and their wives and children at the time. So many of the children were my age. My mother worked in a library for a number of years, for 14 years before she retired in 1986. My father retired the same year. We are Jewish, and it was just inculcated in us without ever I do not recall my parents ever telling us to do any homework, to do homework or read or have any particular things that we must we just knew that education is very important. You will wind up going to college and pursuing our interests. I, being the only girl and the kind of the oddball kid had all these unusual interests, like archaeology and anthropology, and American Indian Studies and travel to not the norm kinds of places. So, my parents did not encourage me per se, they just kind of enabled me to do these things. For example, I did not attend my high school graduation because in 1969 from Far Rockaway High School because I had applied for an archaeology field program in Pennsylvania. And as most students across the country complete their high school year in early June, this program was due to begin in late June. So, I opted to not attend the what was the gala for the students.
IG: 04:54
The graduation ceremony.
JQ: 04:56
The prom, end of June. And I had even gotten the dress and earrings and all the other paraphernalia. Nor did I go to my high school graduation my parents did not mind at all because they knew that this was-was that attending the field program in archaeology was far more important to me than going to exercises like that.
IG: 05:15
You know, how did you develop these interests so early on that is quite remarkable. Usually it is, it is something that comes into one's life at a later, at a later point, right? Not-not in high school.
JQ: 05:29
My earliest recollection of becoming interested in archaeology was when I was in grade school and the teacher--I must not could have been a third of fourth grade--the teacher read some story about cavemen and that just intrigued me. My mother bought a book for me. Later on, I guess I was already in junior high school by that time about geology or earth science. So, I devour that in and read the archaeology books that were available in the local library in Rockaway. And I got associated with somebody heading an archaeology program at the Brooklyn Museum in the late 1960s. So, I got involved in that kind of thing. So that by the time I was in junior high school, I already knew that I was going to study archaeology, and I never wavered from that it was my path was set. [laughs] By the time I was perhaps 14 or so. So, I wound up getting a bachelor's in anthropology from Harpur College, SUNY Binghamton. And then I had the opportunity when I was already at Harpur, to go to West Africa, between my junior and senior years. So, I wound up being able to minor, an Afro American Studies.
IG: 06:49
Tremendous-tremendous. So why did you choose Harpur because of its art- you know, why-why- tell us.
JQ: 06:57
I was graduated from high school in June 1969. I was not very good--I should say a competent student in algebra. So, my average was brought down my overall average was brought down because of that. This was before open admissions, which people my age who lived in New York City will know about, my average was half a point too low to be admitted to Hunter College, living in Rockaway Beach, all the colleges were quite far from me. So, Hunter College would have been the only college which I could have gotten to in about an hour or hour, about an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half travel on the subway--all the other colleges would have been not possible to have reached. So, my average was 83.5, I needed 84. So, I was not admitted. I went to New York City Community College in Brooklyn on J Street for my freshman year. And I loved that college. The students were really interesting, involved in everything very open about their feelings and the world around them, the Civil Rights kinds of things going on and different kinds of music. And it was- I was completely happy at that school. But I knew I wanted to study anthropology. So, I took all the regular subjects but not anthropology at New York City Community College. So, I took a year of geology, I was not permitted to take geology in high school because I was not an advanced student what [inaudible] called SP, SP three or SP two.
IG: 06:58
I remember.
JQ: 07:42
So, I could not take most interesting subject of all so I took history and French and literature and a fantastic philosophy course, which still has an impact on me. And gym, which was great, athletic programs. But I knew I did not want to go to that school for two years because I wanted to have a college which had strong academics in my chosen field. So, I got- I knew I wanted to go to a four-year CUNY- SUNY Center, not-not one of the regular colleges. They were all only four because I wanted better academics of the four-
IG: 09:14
What do you mean by SUNY Center?
JQ: 09:17
I am not using the right term. The four major centers-
IG: 09:22
Research centers, or...?
JQ: 09:23
-like Stony Brook Albany, Buffalo, I am sorry, not yet but Buffalo, the four major-
IG: 09:30
I mean, there are there are universities, their universities within the SUNY system, but-
JQ: 09:36
Yes, but for example, not-not-not Geneseo, not Plattsburgh-
IG: 09:40
Right-right.
JQ: 09:40
-those [crosstalk]
IG: 09:40
Because they are the major research universities. So- Right.
JQ: 09:44
That a special term now I am not-not able to recall the term but there were four colleges within the SUNY system of New York State, which were better than the regular local colleges [crosstalk] are-are-are four of them. So, of those Buffalo was for me was-was too far away and too cold. Albany was in another city and I lived in a big city. And Albany was not an interesting city to me was just a government city. Stony Brook had a reputation for being very druggie, which was not my area of wanting to become like that. So left SUNY Binghamton. So, I did not visit SUNY Binghamton. I select, simply selected out of a catalog at from-from Binghamton catalog. The catalog discussed the kinds of professors and when I counted in compared the PhD professor that those professors had PhDs with the other schools, they were far greater number in SUNY Binghamton. So, I chose to go there. And they also had a large number of anthropology courses. So, I simply chose Binghamton out of out of the catalog.
IG: 10:54
So, when you first arrived, what were- what-what year did you arrive in?
JQ: 11:00
I arrived in mid-September 1970. My parents drove me, drove me up with my belongings. There was no- at that time, most of the students lived on campus. But there was no student housing for me. So, my parents and I found a place where I could live for which included three meals a day for seven days a week off campus in the City of Binghamton five miles from the campus for over $21 a week. And then I had a roommate from the Bronx from the high school of the Bronx High School of Science.
IG: 11:32
Right.
JQ: 11:34
So, we roomed together for the year when house it became available on campus. For me then I moved into Dickinson College.
IG: 11:42
So, what were your first impressions of the university?
JQ: 11:47
Lots of mud. [laughs] Construction going on nonstop until the day I left and I think construction is still continuing.
IG: 11:58
Yes-yes, it is.
JQ: 12:02
Very cloudy and rainy. Not very pleasant weather. Fantastic students, excellent professors. Growing up in Rockaway Beach, I saw only a few trees in my life. We were too far away to go into Central Park or other parks outside of Rockaway, although we had done some traveling across the country. So, the fact that I could go to the women's gym walking down a path and sit at a bench and write some letters and do some reading and collect these colorful leaves, which I never knew existed and put them in dictionary, flatten them out and send them to friends. My let- my letters about what I was doing at Harpur College was endearing. I really had never seen colorful trees before. So, all the colors of the reds and the browns and the goldens and just being able to kick the leaves and run around and be able to- be safe because in the, in the late 1960s, 1970 New York City was not safe. So, I could not go out in the evening just be able to see earthworms. I had never seen an earthworm before. Even though I am from-from the outer area. We did not have earthworms in Rockaway, we did not have any earth it was all sand--lots of woods. I think that was my first impression, just the beautiful countryside and with really interesting students and very highly trained, thoughtful, intelligent professors.
IG: 13:41
Do any professors stand out in your mind that made that influenced you that made a particular impact?
JQ: 13:54
Yes, there were a couple, most especially professor Percy Borde [Percival Sebastian Borde], who was involved in the theater department. He taught West African- he was originally from Trinidad and taught West African dance which I took in the-the fall semester of 1970, spring semester 1972. I had never taken or seen dance from any other country in the world. Growing up in Rockaway Beach, we just had one-one regular culture and then a couple of other-other things. So, the fact that I could have the opportunity to take a dance course, in a culture other than my own is what attracted me to the culture. It was not that I was particularly interested in African or Black culture, but it is just different from my own. And anthropologists are curious about people who are not like us. So, I was eager to take that.
IG: 15:02
So, what did you learn about the culture through the dance? You remember?
JQ: 15:07
Yes, I remember quite a bit. The fact that the culture is intrinsic to- that dance is intrinsic to the to the culture, and everything that is important to the West African people, especially the Yoruba, who we focused on and those people also in Liberia, was expressed through the dance. So, we learned many of the dances which Percy Borde and his wife, quite famous dancer, also from Trinidad, Pearl Primus [Pearl Eileen Primus] had collected these dancers who had studied the dances and learn them in West Africa and then brought them back and we were able to learn them. We also learned- we presented our dances at the end of the semester. So, our graduation, so to speak from the class was to cook a West African styled food, wear-wear African clothing to the dance, we learned some words, we learned a whole array of other kinds of things. And then we presented this to the other students on campus.
IG: 16:15
I am very curious about the dances so though this kind of diverges from now a little bit of your recollection of the Harpur, of the Harpur Binghamton experience. But were they, were they in any way invoking deities? Do they have any kind of Shamanic-shamanic underpinning or, I mean, that is- do you remember that about them?
JQ: 16:46
Yes, but-but the answer is negative. They were not shamanistic in that sense. Perhaps. Percy and his wife had not learned those dances, but we were not told about that.
IG: 16:58
I see.
JQ: 16:58
So, they were more involved into there was a welcome dance, which is quite famous at Pearl made [inaudible]. And we learned that, we learned work dances-dances that would have been done in the field. More everyday kind of dances but not-not the religious kinds of things.
IG: 17:14
I see. I see.
JQ: 17:15
We did have a drummer who played the bongo drum quite carefully because the rhythm is very important. So, he competed us in our classes and performances.
IG: 17:25
I know that the drum also has a special role in these dances and it is almost a call and response. Does-does that have that function in the Yoruba dances? Do you remember?
JQ: 17:37
I do not recollect that in the dances. I-I mean, I know about in the music, but I do not recall that in the dances. But I did- through Percy Borde--he did invite a number of students with- to accompany him to West Africa to study during the entire summer.
IG: 17:59
Did you go?
JQ: 18:00
I sure did.
IG: 18:01
Oh, how was that?
JQ: 18:02
So again, my- here I was 21 years old.
IG: 18:05
How fantastic.
JQ: 18:06
I was- all the other students were Black and male and Protestant or Catholic, Christian. So here I am-
IG: 18:16
How wonderful.
JQ: 18:16
-the only girl the only white and the only do little petite skinny-skinny 110-pound gal who went and I did not get sick. I was very proud of that. So, I not only did I see- we were actually there to study the cultures in 44 countries in West Africa, Nigeria, Liberia, Ghana, and Dahomey, which is now called Guinean. So, we spent eight and a half nine weeks there. Percy was there that the entire time we had an interview and then we were selected and I was- I had wanted to participate because I was an anthropology student over the years an opportunity to learn everything, I could possibly soak up with an extraordinary person along with the other students. So, we met and we-we encountered segments of society from every realm of every stratified society. From the Oba has the Kings, the president of Liberia, we-we met him, we met the villagers. The villagers went to a lot of the villages. Many of the people when we were traveling had never- in villages had never seen a white person before. So, they would point to me and say in their local language, white man, white man, so it was quite-quite extraordinary. We studied at two universities had food prepared-prepared specially for us. The professors were extraordinary. So, we had courses in linguistic sociology, art, appreciation, so to speak, then actually doing the art, music, dance, the hist-history, the various problems that-that the societies faced, especially with the populations moving into the cities from the countryside. So, it was all immersive and utterly fantastic. So, I wound up years later in the 1990s, being asked by the head of the archives of the Schomburg Center for Research and black culture, which is the black Research Library of New York Public Library in Harlem, to work in the archives, so wanted to do that for 24 years. And then I retired five years ago from that. So yes, there was a very direct impact upon my worldview, as well as my career. And my, I think my contributions to society because of having met Percy Borde. I also then went the next semester. He- the spring semester, the year I was graduating, so that would have been the spring semester of 1973. He was also teaching a course in Caribbean dance, West Indian dance, which I participated in as well. And he had hoped to have taken a contingent of us with him to Trinidad, where he was from to study Trinidad in culture, but he was not able to get the funding for that. So, it did not quite pan out, but did not stop me. I met several other students whom he had introduced me to, and we together went to Trinidad for carnival that year. So, we were all there for two weeks, between February and March. And I had told my professors in advance that I would be missing two weeks of school my graduating semester, they gave me permission. Then I took I made up the courses in the test when I returned and graduated, luckily successfully. Another professor, who wound up being very influential, and whom I adore as well, is named Owen Lynch, an anthropologist who was brought up here in Flushing, Queens, and taught anthropology, social anthropology and anthropology, about India, Asia-India. I had him for an anthropology religion class, also when I was an upperclassman, and he was quite extraordinary. He loves students. He was very funny, a fantastic professor. And more than that, just fantastic human being very giving very humble, found all kinds of creative, practical ways to help the Indians whom he studied. And he studied the untouchables in the 1960s, and early (19)70s, before they really had any kind of freedom. He left Harpur around the same time I was graduating, oh, I did not want to add in my compliments to him that he was the only professor of all those at Harpur College who actually went to the graduation exercise for us. So, I was able to introduce him to my parents. And I have always remembered that his that is extraordinary love of student- love and appreciation of students by actually going to the graduation exercise on our behalf. He then left Harpur College because he had gotten an invitation to have a chair at NYU anthropology, the anthropology department. After four years, I wound up going to NYU for-for graduate studies. And he became very-very dear friend. I mean, he had been a dear friend before but he became very important to me there especially. So, I was with him during both colleges that he taught and much to my benefit, and I think to his as well, he and I remained very close friends till his death some years ago, and I saw him just a couple of months before he died and-
IG: 18:16
Right-right.
JQ: 24:07
-he and I remained close friends. I mean, my whole family knew him, he came to my wedding. He knew my children, so it was very endearing for all of us.
IG: 24:18
That is tremendous. I mean, that is, that is tremendous. So interesting. How-how, you know, how did your- I mean, you had such a really enlightened privileged view of the world at such an early age. How did that shape sort of your-your, you know, politics about the civil rights movement in the United States?
JQ: 24:59
Well, I-I should add that I came from a very standard background at the time. Rockaway Beach had primarily Jewish working-class families and students.
IG: 25:14
Right.
JQ: 25:15
In both the primary schools as well as up through high school, we had a few black students, a few Black-Black families who lived who went to the same schools that I did. And they were no, and there were some, some Irish Catholic Irish. And that was all, there were no Latin Americans because the law had not changed at that point. So perhaps it was my interest in anthropology, which gave me a broader perspective, but not-not when I was living in Rockaway, because I was just a very normal, ordinary existence. Although I was interested in the Civil War, but that was about before I went to college, but I thought that was the extent of my having any understanding about any other people. And all we studied about other countries in high school was, we were, we were, the United States was in that country to prevent the spread of communism that was repeated in every single class. So, it was certainly not-not in high school. Um, I and I did not really have an interest in Black culture, aside from being able to take Percy Borde's class, but I was between my junior and senior years. So, it did not develop early. But I, but I did meet Africans, there were a couple of Africans who were friends with Percy Borde whom I met and became friends with, in my senior year, still at a college. So, I think having been to West Africa and being exposed to so much, I had no preconceived notions about Africa before I went there. I remember when I arrived, one of the college students in Africa college student who was there not-not one of us American, SUNY, Binghamton students, asked what my notions were about Africa. He asked that I think was like Tarzan people getting a golden round from tree to tree. And I had never thought that I had no thoughts. And I had no preconceived ideas at all, except what the respect that Percy Borde taught us, of Africans having toward other Africans, and especially toward elders, I remember when-when we were there, there were a small group, and there was an older African lady, market lady carrying merchandise in her head. And he made all of us stop, because his elder in society needed to pass so we had to stop so she could go before. So, I think the respect that the Africans have for each other had, especially the women had a very big impact on my being able to see the world in a different light, that American culture was not the only thing which existed and our standards of behavior were certainly not-not the ordinary, although at that time, there was a greater respect for elders and there are now. The- this whole young people generation came about in the mid (19)60s, I would say, yeah, so it was not like I was brought up with it from early childhood-
IG: 28:56
I see.
JQ: 28:57
-onward. But I think I did not quite answer your questions. [crosstalk]
IG: 28:59
I was, I was grasping at something I do not know, I-
JQ: 29:05
Civil rights.
IG: 29:06
-civil rights, civil rights. But you in part, answered this, because you saw that there were a different, a different ways of being different ways of living outside of the United States. And maybe this is not the only viewpoint. I mean, it expanded your- it enlarged. It was an enlarging experience. So, but-but I do not, you know, I mean, did it make you feel more? I mean, were you involved in the Civil Rights movement at all? And did your experience in Africa kind of fuel your belief in the rightness of civil rights, you know in injustice and for African Americans you know, and making it more immediate. I do not I mean-
JQ: 30:13
Okay.
IG: 30:14
-my might have been something very different.
JQ: 30:15
First of all, I was too young to have become actively involved in civil rights, because born in 1951, so it would have been, would have been born in the 1940s to have actively involved in it on a regular basis. So, I do not really know that I became actively involved in civil rights. When I was grad- during-during this time period, or when I was graduated. I think I was just; I-I did not know to become active. I think that that was a thing that I was thinking about this before your arrival--that Harpur College was extraordinary in the sense that it really broadened my perspective in a lot of ways that had never occurred to me before. I found the students at Far Rockaway High School. And we were all from Rockaway, pretty much the same. And I did not find that the conversations were enlightening or interesting at all, until I went to New York City Community College, where students were way ahead of my thinking in terms of just realizing things and understanding things. And then we talk and talk and talk. And then I could- my mind started to expand then. And it expanded a lot more, I think, at Harpur, and I was not ever involved politically, which I think is-is important, the reason I am having difficulty with your question. But at Harpur, in the student union, especially during lunch break, there were students who set up tables about various things, which they were particularly interested in. So, they were tables, and they were people who were belong to- who were communists and socialists. Capitalists did not need a table because most people were capitalist anyhow. So that would not be a new, new kind of conversation. People evolved in the women's movement, just the beginnings of gay and lesbian stuff, especially in dance classes and dance clubs, which I belong to there--not-not modern dance, not-not-
IG: 30:55
Right. Interesting, yeah.
JQ: 32:25
-different kinds of food and what I was, I was used to--American food, but I just, I never experienced it. So, I think that was my enlightenment. Not-not, so it was some of everything all at once. But it was not particularly civil rights. For example, there was, there was a male student who had been in Attica prison before in the 1960s, before my arrival, so like when the Attica riots occurred in 1970. He was then had a table of his own in the student center and handed out literature. So, I think the enlightenment came about all these things, which I had never thought about, because they just did not occur in Rockaway Beach, where I guess.
IG: 33:09
I guess, you know, I would, you know, I, my assumption was that after having gone to Africa and seen the richness of this culture and the- you mentioned, you know, exposure to- to big intellectuals in, you know, academics, and then coming here and seeing how far we need to go, you know, to appreciate- that there was no question about, you know, how deserving African American people are, and-and after, after experiencing that, in Africa. I do not know what I am grasping toward, but it just, you know, because you see these people from a very different vantage point, you see their sort of ancestors and-and here, you know, the, the whole issue is the color of the skin, and you see people here and there, you know, who are accomplished and you know, it just like it becomes you know, I would think that you would, you know, that conclusion that you would draw eyes, what is the whole problem about, you know, why are we struggling? Why-why-why did this happen in the first place, you know, and- does that make sense? I think I took it as a given. That is a given. That is a given.
JQ: 34:39
Right, given because not well- not only does this just make sense, because it is just obvious, very logical. You do not think I needed to realize that [crosstalk] save a copy, for example, in I also did take a course my last semester at Harpur College, Afro American history since 1877--1877 being a cut off with the Reconstruction. So, I wound up doing a term paper about the founding of the of the NAACP, and the Jewish involvement in those early years.
IG: 35:26
I understand. I understand.
JQ: 35:28
I think it-it was just so obvious to me what the solution is that I do not think it required-required [crosstalk] realization.
IG: 35:37
I just remember the United States or I remember even New York, I am, I am a little bit younger than you were. But I remember a very different New York, and that there were racial divides and racial tensions. And so that is, you know, that-that is what I was exposed to. That is what I that is the New York, even the New York, the progressive New York that I grew up in. Um, so-
JQ: 36:10
So, New York was difficult at the time when I was graduated in 1973. New York was a real problem to live in. I lived in Rockaway Beach. So, it was I worked at the American Museum of Natural History for four years right after graduation. So, it would take me between an hour and a quarter an hour and a half to get to work. But Rockway had become very dangerous.
IG: 36:35
Yeah.
JQ: 36:36
So, there was a policeman literally on every train, I had a self-imposed curfew of leaving Manhattan, no later than nine o'clock at night, or I would not get home and live. My father had to meet me at the subway station, my mother had to leave, he had to leave work early. My mother had he picked up my mother from her library job and in Far Rockaway. And then you would have to pick me up from the subway station because I could not walk those four blocks home without getting attacked, which I was with my mother once and then by myself once or at a friend's house in Brooklyn, or stay with my brother overnight. So, New York was-was very difficult at the time. So, I think I was just trying to keep alive, not worry about the civil rights movement, because-
IG: 37:23
I understand I understand.
JQ: 37:25
-it was just, really difficult.
IG: 37:25
You know, I was-
JQ: 37:26
Really difficult.
IG: 37:27
Yeah. So, you know, you-you have this splendid education at Harpur College. You know, what, and you-you gave us a sense of the, actually the politicized and very intellectualized environment just by describing the cafeteria, and, you know, the-the different political groups that would form around tables. Was the Vietnam War, you know, how-how, you know, how dominant a topic, but was it in your life and in your circles at the time?
JQ: 38:21
I recall one of the students who was worried about graduating 1973, because he was not going to be allowed himself to be drafted. So, and he did not want to run, a run up to Canada either. So, he knew that when he was graduated, no longer have a student deferment. And was drafted, he was just going to go to prison, and spend a year or two in prison just doing really donkey work there. So, I think that we were all very much concerned about Vietnam. But there were not a lot of as I recall, there were not a lot of protests about Vietnam there either. There was more involvement in abortion rights for women, and in the women's movement, from my recollection than-than Vietnam. I guess because the students, maybe because by the time (19)72-(19)73, rolled around, things look like there was going like, there was going to be a final an end to the war, which still took a couple of years, but perhaps because especially with the men, they maybe they felt that they were not going to be drafted, or they had this protection that I do not really recall a lot of demonstrations about that. I do recall a bus going to Washington DC to protest about women's rights. That would have been maybe (19)72 or so. (19)71-(19)72.
IG: 39:53
So how was the women's-women's rights movement? Come How did it come into your consciousness? You know, how did it how did it- how did you begin to think about it? I mean, what-what were the first signs? You know, how did you perceive it at the time? What- how did you recognize that it was emerging as a movement? And how did you respond to it? I remember, you know, from a later time, the appearance of the book Our Bodies, Ourselves, and that, to me was kind of a symbol of the movement.
JQ: 40:35
I remember the book Yeah. I was not a very politically active person.
IG: 40:41
Yeah.
JQ: 40:41
But other women and men students that that I knew were. So, I think I got the inklings and the-the thrust of all this from them, even though I did not participate actively myself. And I remember one of the, one of the other dancers turned out to be lesbian, although I do not think that she actually discussed that. So, she was involved in the women's movement from a different point of view. Not from the-the what the expected one. But I think there was more concerned about abortion. That is what I recollect. I said there was. And then I remember, one young student [inaudible] was explaining to a woman student, what abortion is, and the mechanics of all this stuff, and how all that it says, remove the DNC, something like that, I certainly did not know. So, this young fella knew it. So, my parents were not political, my two brothers really are not. So, I did not have politics, in my family, and in my blood, so to speak. So, I think I was a little bit on the periphery of that. I think I was involved in other activities at Harpur College. And that, really, the politics. And the American Indian Movement started around that same time a little bit later, though. But I do not think we had any American Indian students at the time. So that was not direct, as it was for the Attica prisoner, which was quite immediate and left a big impression on me.
IG: 42:18
Why-why did it impress you, The Attica?
JQ: 42:23
Because it was not just something that they were flyers about, or something in a paper, it was immediate, because one of our students was a former prisoner. So, he would present he would give us presentations and talk to us and, and present flyers, but it was more of a personal nature. So that was very impressive.
IG: 42:43
I see. I see. I see.
JQ: 42:45
So again, this was something which, just like I was saying, at Far Rockaway High School, I did not think about any of these things. But when-when you are confronted with a [crosstalk], then it becomes immediate, and then you understand the implications of it.
IG: 42:59
Understand.
JQ: 43:01
We were involved in other things at Harpur, which I knew nothing about. So that left a big impression on me. For example, when I grew up in Rockaway Beach, food was very simple and very much the same. If you wanted to buy tomatoes, for example, they were three little pinkish tomatoes in a piece of cardboard, thin cardboard, couple of cellophane, all the same size, they all were made to fit in that little thing. So, my only knowledge of food was iceberg lettuce, and these pinkish horrible tomatoes, and white bread, and maybe whole wheat bread. And a few other such things like that oatmeal. So, when I got to Harpur, there were so many students who were involved in, in cooking and protesting about other things, for example, in- I think, was 1970, or (19)71, there was the strike of the people who were picking the iceberg lettuce in California, as well as the grapes. So, we students said, “We are not eating that stuff.” So, you cannot serve it to us. And of course, the administration obliges them did not serve us that those kinds of things, students actually had quite a bit of power, which I was very proud of, not that I was instrumental in this, but I had never known that anybody could have power, let alone students gives the big administration. So, I learned about politics through direct action that way, so to speak, not celebrates but-but-but things that were more immediate and affected us on a daily basis. And then in terms of food, there were many kinds of diets which people students could enjoy at Harpur College, there was the-the kosher kitchen, there was a macrobiotic diet, which was all new to me.
IG: 44:52
Oh, that is right.
JQ: 44:53
There was healthful living. So, to my way of thinking, people who lived in the (19)60s and early (19)70s were split into two groups. You can either take the druggie kinds of things in the drop out kind of hippie type of thing. Or you can chop or you could choose the hippie kind of thing, but live healthfully. So, I chose the latter.
IG: 45:15
Well, maybe-maybe, you know, the-the latter, the latter group is kind of the defectors from the druggie crowd because you know, a lot of the macrobiotic adherence were former druggies from-from you know, my knowledge and they came to macrobiotics as a way to get clean. But you know that that is not that is not your experience. But-
JQ: 45:48
Right. I do not know if it Harpur College because the students would have been 18-19-20. So, I do not know if their background was-was drug related, or if they just selected because they had the opportunity to improve their diet yet, which would have been my own background. Since-
IG: 46:09
Yeah.
JQ: 46:09
-grains and non-meat things.
IG: 46:13
Yeah-yeah-yeah.
JQ: 46:13
And the whole wheat stuff was not anything I had ever known about.
IG: 46:18
Right-right.
JQ: 46:19
So that was rather enlightening to me.
IG: 46:21
Yeah.
JQ: 46:22
And be able- being able to have an input with the administration was also rather amazing to me. One of the things I found extraordinary at Harpur, which I am very proud about is that we students actually had a great amount of respect given to us by the administration, and the various academic departments, which enabled us to create courses and even majors, for example, my roommate wanted to- she was one year older than I, she wanted to have a Hebrew-Hebrew studies major. So, she actually put together courses and professors and created a major for herself, which she was the only one, the only Hebrew studies major at the school. So, the only one to have done this, the first one. Now, one could get a Hebrew studies major, but she was able to create this for herself. I actually created- That is remarkable. -two-two courses--one was in ceramics. And the other was in Hermann-Hermann Hesse as literature, I have actually found a professor who was one of my English professors. And I put together a course, years later I-
IG: 47:34
How did you interest this professor to teach exclusively Hermann Hesse class and how did that come into being? How did you, you know, because I mean, administration is, you know, I could imagine so many roadblocks to getting a course approved, it takes forever.
JQ: 47:51
I think he must have taught a course in Mark Twain or something, some-some individual writers’ course before I met him. I remember we read Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, which from an academic perspective, and also Huckleberry Finn, with him and he said he was a great academician. I think he was just accustomed to looking at by biographies or single authors who had written a body of work and being able to teach it. And Hermann Hesse was pretty popular in the 1960s, early (19)70s. So, I do not recall any difficulty I just asked him when he said, "Okay."
IG: 48:34
Okay.
JQ: 48:37
And we did it up. [laughs]
IG: 48:39
And so-so it was offered as a Hermann Hesse class.
JQ: 48:43
Yes. Yes.
IG: 48:44
So, there must have been very little red tape, you know, to get this course approved. You know, he just declared it a course. And it became a course.
JQ: 48:54
Yes. Yes. [crosstalk]
IG: 48:54
Is that the way that it worked?
JQ: 48:55
That is my recollection, I do not recall having any red tape really to form--there have been a ceramics course before, but then it was dropped for a number of years. I reintroduced it and it was just do it. That is the Herman-Herman has course I just remember asking the professor and he said, "Alright."
IG: 49:13
Did you put together now a syllabi?
JQ: 49:15
I-I- no. That was- he had done that, then I realized that he was such an advanced professor, he was beyond my ability to be a good student in his- a great students in his course. I was like getting a B or C when I had always gotten the A's and literature in English. So, I realized I was just not an advanced enough student for him.
IG: 49:40
Yeah.
JQ: 49:41
So even though I-I created the course I wound up not taking it with him. I did take the ceramics course however. So, we were taught it was not just like a junior high school kind of shop class. We were actually taught a lot of techniques and it could be could pertain- related to-to archaeology with ceramics that way.
IG: 50:00
And-and in different parts of the world, does it?
JQ: 50:05
No, it was recently a hand on doing it. So, we learned that [crosstalk]. Years later, I spoke to a colleague at- archivist colleague, who worked for many years at Columbia University, this world-renowned university, she had worked there for years and never ever heard in the history of Columbia University, a student was putting together a major or a course. And something was just, we just do it at. It is just-just one of the things that we can do. When I first got there the first semester, so we students, and I was not the originator of this idea, but I certainly participated in it fully. We created a store--we got- we had somebody else had gotten the-the storefront, and we actually cleaned everything out painted it decorated it, created I remember- I used to make change purses and sell them for $1 or something dollar 25. I think I got I made 25 cents profit on it. So, we-we just quick created a store by- for and administered by [crosstalk]. I was as I was not the originator. I did not need to do any of the background work. But I do not I am sure that the administration would have supported it. If-if we had a number of students had also put together an ambulance program, not I- but I guess because of the drugs on campus. They actually put together an ambulance, which try to name [inaudible].
IG: 51:45
Yeah, I remember. It is-
JQ: 51:47
It originated-
IG: 51:48
-still exists.
JQ: 51:49
It originated with us, right. And it still exists all these 50 years later or so.
IG: 51:53
That is, that is, that is great that you know, someone was as respectful of-of your creativity of your ideas and supported you and help you implement these. How did that do you think that confidence in students- how do you think that that affected you in?
JQ: 52:18
Well, I did want to add one thing before I tell you about that. We- there was a new dormitory at SUNY Binghamton called College in the Woods, which was built in about 1972. And they were- the administration initially was going to cut down more trees than we felt was necessary in order to build the dormitory buildings. So, we had one or two little protests, not anything, aggressive, or major. So, we request the administration not chop down as many trees as they did not, they chopped down only the number of trees that they needed to-to construct the buildings and to build the sidewalks. So, we got what we wanted to do. So, I think the way it affected me and I think this also took many years, including my work at the Schomburg Center, when one of my best friends was a communist from Haiti. And everybody endured the man. So, I think I learned a lot about activism from him. So, I, other people consider me an activist these days, I just consider myself just doing what I need to do to help improve society. So, I think having seen that students have a good deal of power. And I did not know anything about power, not power, because I was just a little protected kid from Rockaway that I realized that we could accomplish things, either individually, or as groups did not need to be violent, really, I did not see- they were very few demonstrations. as I recollect at Harpur College, politically. I was not there in May of 19, May of 1970. During the May activities--I was at my other-other college. And indeed, we did not attend class that day. But often, even though we had many students from New York City, who were very bright, it was a not a place where there were lots of demonstrations. So, I think somehow that the administration, I did not know any of the administrators did have a lot of respect for us. And that the ideas were good, solid, not-not negative ideas. They just went along with it also was a new school. I maybe that had something to do with it, that it was founded in the late 1950s. So, there was not a long history of having some kind of tradition or doing things in only one way and having the-the administration be very powerful. And the students, no doubt starting in the mid-1960s, were more active, that would have been the first time they would have been active. So, I think the administration just went along with us because the ideas were positive. And then it took me personally a number of years because I went to graduate school and did other things. It took me a number of years, until the 1990s, when I started to do things as well, not knowing that the ideas probably stemmed from Harpur College, because I had a colleague at the Schomburg Center who was very active politically. So, I think he kind of taught me how I could do things and make-make an impact. So, I am always are quite frequently at my local council men's office with an idea that I would like to see implemented, and some of them, to some extent, have been implemented, as just I do not know, the legislative process very well. So, people- other people have said, "Oh, Janice, you are a political activist. You just do not-do not recognize that in yourself."
IG: 54:08
Right.
JQ: 56:07
But I think it probably did come down that from Harpur, I think, I have been saying this for years, that the Harpur students were absolutely extraordinary, that they were the most selfless group of people I have ever met, that they had real, higher aspirations, to make a better society. And I think this was many students, not just a few of them. So, I think that was a real pattern, which I was able to follow in my own life and say, "Oh, that comes from Harpur," I could see it. I have a friend who is a Harpur student, who now lives in California, a musician. And I have said, "Boy, those Harpur students were just so amazing, they did this and this and this." So, I think, happily, that, not being able to compare it to just what I believe that Harpur students were better than other students in the sense of, of really trying to make a positive impact in the world. Even at years after they graduated, without going through the negativity of alienating their parents and-and doing a lot of things which would have been problematic in society the time for a young person or-or for the parents. So, I think Harpur students were just wonderful. I applaud for them. [laughs]
IG: 56:07
Right-right. That is wonderful. I-I, you know, I think that is such a gift that you have been, that you had been given in really being given sort of a, a wide berth to express herself and to be taken seriously, because I think the, you know, the hardest thing for a young person as they are, you know, becoming an adult and is to have the-the courage of their convictions is to believe in you know, and what-what they are and, and here, you are actually encouraged to become that,
JQ: 58:08
And also, by the professors.
IG: 58:11
Yeah, of course, by the professors by the administration. That is wonderful.
JQ: 58:15
Yeah.
IG: 58:17
So just give us a- you know, an overview of your, you know, your career trajectory.
JQ: 58:26
As mentioned, I was graduated in 1973. Something I do want to add, which was, which is a negative is that I majored in anthropology, just because I love that there was no other reason for it. But as-as I was due to graduate, I entered the office of the chair of the department, Dr. Horowitz [Michael Horowitz]--I do not recall his first name Horowitz. And I asked him his advice. "What do you think I could do with an anthropology degree? What kind of job shall I get? Now that I am graduating going back to New York City." He said, "Well, you always pump gas." And that is all he said. He offered nothing for me at all. I do not think anybody could get away with that these days, actually.
IG: 59:14
No-no.
JQ: 59:15
But it was, it was early 1970s. And I did not have- I had ideas but not a specific goal or how to achieve these. So, I went the route of applying for a job as a secretary. "Can you type?" repeatedly I cannot tell you how many hundreds of times I was asked about that. My first job actually was working in the world for World Trade Center building number one in 1973. Working for Japanese import export firm. I then was able to get a job again as a secretary, working at South Street Seaport Museum because by then I figured out I would like to work in a museum. And then I was very happy to have worked for four years at the American Museum of Natural History, which had nothing to do with my secretarial skills because I applied for several secretarial jobs. But the-the personnel woman who I still remember name Mrs. Lazada, from the Philippines was so taken with the fact that I really wanted to work the museum, I think I must have applied for three jobs there. And I wound up working for the Department of vertebrate paleontology. So that was my geology background came into use there for four years, and I had two fantastic curators so I was able to do a lot of things besides just working for- just typing manuscripts and letters, which are fascinating in the- in it in and of themselves. But I was able to work with a lot, a lot with the fossils, with moving cleaning and moving the Macedon bones and sorting the-the fossil mammals from Australia. And-
IG: 1:00:54
Yeah, I love them- [crosstalk] So interesting. Yeah.
JQ: 1:00:55
-how it helped me to go to use a caliper to measure them and be ascribed with my curator would give me the measurements and I got to know people from all the different scientific departments and a library. I decided I would like to work in a museum professionally. So, I left not quite happily, after four years. So, this was in 1977 and went to New York University where Owen Lynch was my friend and protector. It was a very difficult school because of the head of anthropology department at the time, just the opposite of-of Harpur college. I was graduated in 1980, with a master's in Anthropology and certification Museum Studies. Unfortunately, my- President Reagan had come into power at the time, even though he came from a cultural background being an actor. He did not care about the culturals. So, we cut- he slashed them financially. So, I wound up learning how to do archival work at a small museum on Staten Island, Staten Island, Staten Island Institute of Arts and Sciences. So, I learned how to become an archivist there. And even that he slashed by three months, that was a CETA program, a CETA training program, CETA and then I got to know people in the field, even though I had never heard of archives before I became one. So, I had to work in a number of research libraries in psychology work for John Jay College of Criminal Justice in its archives and a special program, the municipal archives here in New York City, New York Hospital Corner Medical Center. Psychology-
IG: 1:01:03
Which did you enjoy?
JQ: 1:01:15
And also, something called the historic documents inventory. Well, I love working on Staten Island still my favorite borough, I have never lived there. But I was just enamored of my colleagues and their-their great passion for Staten Island. And I was so enamored of archival work that I did not even know when it was time to go home, I did not know was time to eat lunch, I was just looking at learning from the documents. I worked for Cornell University, but here in New York City, on a statewide project, to survey all the repositories open to the public. All across, it was actually in every county of New York See, I worked in the New York City phase of the project. So, I worked at probably different probably around 200 depositories of all types here in New York City museums, historic societies, just neat places. And then I worked then I got a phone call from the curator at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black culture in Harlem to ask me if I would work for her.
IG: 1:03:40
How did it- how do they know of you?
JQ: 1:03:42
Because I had sur-survey those archives [crosstalk] archives as well, because of my interest in Black Studies.
IG: 1:03:48
I see, I see.
JQ: 1:03:49
We all had it. There were five of us work working simultaneously in New York City. So, we had a choice of where we wanted to work. So, some people like banks and corporations, whatnot. I liked all the interesting ethnic place in museums.
IG: 1:04:02
Right-right.
JQ: 1:04:03
So, I worked at the Schomburg Center on this project for about four weeks or so. So, the curator in the archives department got to know me and then called me to ask about work for which I did. So, I spent that time I had two babies and could not afford to pay a babysitter for two, for two children. So, I worked the Schomburg Center from 1990 to 19- until I retired in 2014. Five years ago, three days a week. So, I worked there on hundreds of collections. When I went to the Schomburg Center a couple of months ago, probably in January or so there was an all-new staff in the archives. So, I never met them, but they all knew my name because my name was on hundreds of collections when I go to other repositories on Staten Island or-or have a history of psychiatry archive in New York Hospital Cornell Medical Center. So, Staff never saw me but they know my name because my name is-is on hundreds of collections there as well. So-
IG: 1:05:07
That is wonderful.
JQ: 1:05:07
I feel very proud of [crosstalk]-
IG: 1:05:09
-your imprint.
JQ: 1:05:11
I feel very proud that I, I believe that I have put here on earth to continue people's research to make-make research repositories available to increase human knowledge. So, I-I feel that I was able to do this through my archival work, because those collections are organized for all time process is what we call it for all time. And the reports, the finding aids are there to help researchers. So they are, they are a permanent contribution in many different repositories across the city. And I still continue to donate research-research materials to various libraries, I was just contributing a photo manual 50 years old to a photo photographic archive in Midtown yesterday. And I have got a number of other books and other photo, postcards and other-other research things lined up to me to deliver the next couple of weeks or so.
IG: 1:06:16
What was, what was, you know, the most interesting involving archive, I know that it is an impossible question.
JQ: 1:06:28
I love being on Staten Island. Because everything was brand new to me, all I knew was that there was a ferry and there was a bridge. So, I really loved being immersed in Staten Island history and natural history and learning about the bird count and seeing the journals of the founders from the repository from the 1870s. And learning to read the 19th century handwriting becoming- become quite adept at that just enchanted me. I loved working at the American Museum of Natural History, and then have the opportunity to return some years later. And being the only person who was trusted by the librarians there, as well as all the curators and all the scientific departments. So, they showed me their collect- their archival collections allowed me to write them up to me was really extraordinary. So mineral science, mammalogy and the paleontological collections, anthropology, so many collections took me three months, just to work up the descriptions in that one repository. And now that one repository has a guide of many hundreds of pages, which I completely organized myself. So, I am very proud of that. And I am glad to also be able to, even though I did not know I was going to end up doing this still five years after my retirement, I am still gathering material and-and I have contributed to almost 30 repositories, New York City, donating books in our current material to these various places. So, to me, that is a gift, so that I hope that I will leave the world in a better place of when the way I found it, which is what I think the whole legacy of people who attend or as children attended a wonderful campus my children did in Lake Placid or at Harpur College, that I think those fantastic students really were very serious about wanting to leave the world a better place. And Harpur College, I think, have made students have made tremendous contributions to the world.
IG: 1:08:38
I think so too, I think so from-from those students that I have spoken to certainly, I think we are wrapping up and this fascinating interview. And what I would like to ask as sort of a concluding question is, what-what do you think- what lessons? What were the most important lessons from this period in your life and that you would like to impart to the- you know, the young people who may be listening to this tape, and what do you- what advice do you have to give to them, that has helped you succeed in your, in your chosen profession and in your life?
JQ: 1:09:33
I think I can answer that. answer that in two ways. One is that, especially for liberal arts students, as so many of us were in the 1960s-1970s. We or at least I was able to benefit from Harpur from being a student at Harpur College, because I was, I allowed myself to be exposed in the classroom with adequate classroom in many things, which I never thought about before, or never done before, for example, I took modern dance, modern dance, I belong to the modern dance club. So, we performed at Harpur College and also for a school in Binghamton. So, I have never heard of jazz music before a lot of these things. So, I think to be able to, and I was just actually advising a young woman who just started Stony Brook University last semester about the same kind of thing that if you could just expand your mind, which is a very 1960s Psychedelic term, but one can use it in this way, as well. To allow yourself to take courses and think about things and speak to people about things which you never thought about before. And try not to associate only with the students, some of my fond memories are becoming friends with a man who was twice my age at the time who I worked for, in maintenance. So, I became friends with him and his wife off campus and invited me to their home, which was enchanting, because I probably get a little bit tired of seeing everybody who's exactly your age, that I became friends with a family who lived in the city of Binghamton, and they took me to their house and took me hiking with their children. So, it was very enchanting. So, I think that is important to maintain a perspective of not just everybody who is 21 as you are. But also, to try to take what you have learned at Harpur. And I think Harpur is a great place to be able to do and I hope it still is, of being able to implement programs does not have to be a course or a major, just doing something for somebody else, or something else or another country, which is a lot easier to do now than when I was at school when there were fewer international students. And then being able to take those that the lessons learned, learned there, how to do things, and bring it back to your own home and community and try to do things which will benefit a greater number of people or the earth. I mean, we had to Earth Day 1970. So, I was luckily, [inaudible] I was not there for that it started a few months before I- my arrival. To me, the most important thing that we should accomplish these days is taking care of the earth. There will always be people.
IG: 1:12:35
Yeah.
JQ: 1:12:37
If there are more or fewer people will still always have people, we have got only one Earth. So, to me, the most important thing that we should do is take care of, care of the earth in the best way possible. And get involved in ecological studies and efforts as best as possible. And take lessons from the elders of our native peoples in this hemisphere, not necessarily just in this country, because we have got native peoples all the way from tip of North America all the way to the southern part of South America-
IG: 1:13:13
Yeah.
JQ: 1:13:14
-Patagonia. So, I think we should take the lessons of-of being stewards of the earth, and doing everything we possibly can to embrace the earth not just in a scientific environmental way, which is really an environmental kind of almost like a non-passionate way or satire scientifically. But I feel that we need to embrace the earth. And it is lovely, and we should love it. And more of a poetic sense, not just in a scientific sense. And I think if we keep that kind of thing in mind, then we will make the right decisions.
IG: 1:13:52
Thank you for a beautiful interview. Thank you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Janice Quinter
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Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
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Quinter, Janice ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
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Janice (Ebenstein) Quinter attended Harpur College from 1970-1973 and graduated with a Bachelors in Anthropology and a minor in Afro-American Studies. After working at the American Museum of Natural History she was awarded a Master's degree in Anthropology and Certificate in Museum Studies from New York University in 1980. She spent her career as an archivist in research repositories in every borough in New York City, including 24 years at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture at the New York Public Library. Janice is happy to have contributed to increasing human knowledge about many areas of study.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-03-29
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eng
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Janice Quinter_1.mp3
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2019-03-29
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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73:58 minutes
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2019-04-02
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied
Year of Graduation
1966
Biographical Text
Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied, American Librarian. Certified reading specialist, New Jersey, New York; She worked as adult services supervisor for the Edison Public Library and as public relations officer for the I.L. Peretz Community Jewish School in New Brunswick before that. She is a member of the New Jersey Library Association. She enjoys reading, gardening and furniture refinishing in her spare time.
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Audio
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied
Subject
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Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
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Espenschied, Barbara Kriegsman ; Gashurov, Irene
Description
An account of the resource
Barbara Kriegsman Espenschied, American Librarian. Certified reading specialist, New Jersey, New York; She worked as adult services supervisor for the Edison Public Library and as public relations officer for the I.L. Peretz Community Jewish School in New Brunswick before that. She is a member of the New Jersey Library Association. She enjoys reading, gardening and furniture refinishing in her spare time.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-04-02
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eng
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Barbara Espenschied_1.mp3
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2019-04-02
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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48:36 minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bbbda9cebd06cc1ca5f5fc188f61f092.jpg
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-03-11
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Barry Schneider
Year of Graduation
1964
Biographical Text
Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona.
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Transcription
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Barry Schneider
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 11 March 2019
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
BS: 00:00
[inaudible] My name is Barry Schneider, graduated 1964 from Harpur College, and I am now a retired superior court judge in Phoenix, Arizona. Today is March 1, 2019.
IG: 00:17
Where are we? And [inaudible]
BS: 00:19
We are in my office in Phoenix I have as a retired judge. I became a mediator/arbitrator. I do not practice law, although my license is active and I have an office in Phoenix at 1313, East Osborne Road, Phoenix, Arizona, 85014.
IG: 00:39
And what are you doing?
BS: 00:41
And I am told that what we are doing is compiling some kind of an oral history of my wonderful time at Harpur College in the (19)60s.
IG: 00:49
Exactly-exactly. All right. So, thank you very much for that intro. So maybe we can begin by your just tell me a little bit of by way of background, where did you grow up and who your parents were? What they did? Did they encourage you to continue with your higher education?
BS: 01:11
Absolutely. I was born in the Bronx in New York, right near Yankee Stadium, and my family moved when I was 12 years old to the south shore of Long Island, to Woodmere New York, five towns on the south shore, and I went to high school at Hewlett on Long Island. I graduated high school in 1960 I had played varsity basketball and varsity baseball in high school, and my parents were off born in the United States from parents who had emigrated around turn of the 20th century from Russia and other countries around there. My father was a small businessman who owned a small manufacturing business that manufactured leather wedding albums and such. My mother was a homemaker. She-she was a brilliant card player. She is a life master in Bridge at a very early age, played poker in her later years, very smart woman. I had a sister that unfortunately passed away when I was a junior in college. She was 17. The family moved to Long Island when it came to applying to colleges, my high school limited us to three applications, and I applied to Cornell engineering, because I figured I could not get into Cornell otherwise, and I had an interest in math at the time. And I applied to University of Vermont, and I applied to Harpur College, which was definitely promoted strongly by my high school guidance counselor. He put it in terms of, economically, it is obviously a good deal, but scholastically, it has got an excellent reputation. It is going to be a growing, wonderful university in the northern part of the state. It is part of the state system. It is going to have funding, presumably, it was 1000 students or so when I applied, it sounded great, and I was accepted to all three and I chose Harpur.
IG: 01:12
Why?
BS: 01:58
For all those reasons, I liked the idea that it was small. I did not really want to go to an engineering school in Vermont. I did not really know anything about it, so Harpur seemed the right fit for me. And my parents are very encouraging. Fact, I still remember, finally, my father passed away in 2006, 92 I still remember fondly the trip that he and I took from our home to Binghamton from my orientation. It was just the two of us. It was a wonderful couple of days together. So, they were very supportive.
IG: 04:27
Had you- thank you. Had you ever visited Binghamton before arriving on campus?
BS: 04:37
I do not think so. I am not sure. I do not have a recollection of it. I do not think so.
IG: 04:47
So, what were your first impressions your-
BS: 04:50
I did visit. I did visit because I remember being taken through the dorm and knocking on somebody's door. I cannot remember who it was. It could have been somebody became a big director. No, he was here behind me. Was not Andrew Bergman. He was a year behind me. Was Andrew Bergman's good friend I was thinking about that was not them knocked on somebody's door. They showed me the dorm room. So, I was there for a brief time before I actually went there. And my impressions were, what did I know? 17-year-old kid from Long Island. I do not know anything.
IG: 05:26
So, you know you-you had not experienced rural life before, right?
BS: 05:33
No, Suburban. You know, Bronx in suburbia.
IG: 05:37
Okay, so-
BS: 05:38
Camps every now and then.
IG: 05:40
Yeah. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of the place of the students that you met on your first days?
BS: 05:48
It is hard to remember the first impressions my first activities. I remember this. I do not know if it is of any interest, but I have an athletic interest. I went to college having no-no dreams of ever having any intercollegiate experience. I remember my high school basketball coach laughing at me. He says, “As soon as you hear that basketball bounce, you are going to be in the gym.” I am 5'6", (5')7", whatever, and I am a little tiny runt. I so the first thing I did was, I think I knew who my roommate was. I think we met before we went up there. We had a mutual friend. He got kicked out of the school in our sophomore year, but I went down to the gym, which was then the small gym, which I do not know if it is a women's gym now or not, it was not the big field house by any means, and there were on the outdoor basketball courts. There were a bunch of games going on. One of the players in one of the games was a junior at Harpur. His name is Jimmy Davis. I knew Jimmy pretty well because he was a star of the basketball team a couple of years ahead of me at Hewlett, and his younger brother was a year behind me at Hewlett, and we were teammates on the basketball team. And in fact, I remember talking to Jimmy before I made my decision about Harpur, because I would I knew that he had gone there, and he was very encouraging. And I saw Jimmy on the play on the basketball courts playing with his older guy turned out to be the basketball coach. And Jimmy says, "Hey, peanuts." So, peanuts was my name from orientation week until I graduated and I got into the game that the coach was playing, Jimmy was playing. I do not know if Mickey Greenberg was there. Probably was. And because of Jimmy, who the coach idolized, Jimmy was a God. He was a great player, because I was kind of part of his whatever I was seen by the coach as, hey, this is potential, whatever. In fact, the coach had told me that my JV basketball coach in high school had met him earlier that summer at some coaches’ conference, and for some reason he knew I was going to Harpur and mentioned to the coach, Frank Pollard, hey, this kid, peanuts is coming, you know, keep your eye out for him. That is my first recollection of anything during orientation week. Remember getting the beanies, and if you know when the beanie, they-they did an H in your forehead. And I was, I was always getting an H on my forehead because I was challenging these ridiculous norms, whatever, that is what I remember. I started off as a math major, and I think either after my first semester or my second semester, I said, "No, that is not for me." I had four eight o'clock in my first semester. It was freezing cold. I never could not get the you know; I did not want to go to class. And I have a good friend, Tony D'Aristotle, who graduated a year before me, who was also on the basketball team, local from Binghamton, still lives in Binghamton. Used to live Montreal, taught Montreal in McGill, taught at Stanford, taught and spent time down South America back in Binghamton, I stayed his house. When I am there. He was a math major; he was a professor of math. He was a PhD in math, and he remembers the conversation that I do not remember when I told Dick Wick Hall, who was a professor of math, I do not think this is for me. And Hall said, okay, he could not care less. So, I started as a math major, then I had to figure out a major, and I majored in economics. There was that a little bit of math in it.
IG: 05:48
Yeah. How- what did you think of-of the students in your classes?
BS: 05:48
I loved it. There was all this political, civil rights stuff going on, hippies, beats. On beatniks and dressing, you know, differently. I remember the fun we used to have, and I was kind of a part of that. I was, I went up to Buffalo to-to demonstrate against house on American Activities Committee, and I, I was part of that group, but I was not as fringed as they were. But I remember going into town wearing my Harpur jacket, carrying my communism textbook from social science whatever, just to get a reaction from the local people. I mean, we had fun, but we were but we will push. We were part of that generation, the sexual revolution, civil rights revolution. I remember Stokely Carmichael coming to the campus.
IG: 10:51
When-when?
BS: 10:53
(19)63, (19)64.
IG: 10:55
I had not realized that.
BS: 10:57
And John Lewis, I think, was with him as well.
IG: 10:59
Oh, really?
BS: 11:00
I think so. And I just kind of was on the background, just [crosstalk]
IG: 11:06
We actually have their- we have John Lewis's interview for another collection.
BS: 11:12
Okay, yeah, but I was very wrapped up in that social in the social political culture.
IG: 11:18
I had not realized was that that early in the (19)60s.
BS: 11:23
Before the Vietnam War, it was purely the civil rights movement. And I marched on Washington in 1963--there was groups that were being sent by Harpur College, and I did not really get a part of that. I go home, it is August, back home and talk about parents encouraging you. And my sister had died earlier that year, and I am home and the civil rights march, the March on Washington, and I said, I want to go and by myself. I got on a train, and my mother packed me a lunch, goodbye and good luck and Godspeed. She was proud of me. So was my father.
IG: 12:05
How wonderful.
BS: 12:06
It was, tearing up, but I mean to me, those four years were irrepla- irreplaceable. Girlfriends broke up with me, all that stuff. It was a real coming of age experience.
IG: 12:26
Tell us a little bit more about the groups that you socialized with and-
BS: 12:30
I was a member. I was kind of rushed by. We did not have they did not have fraternity news. Then they had social clubs. And one of the leading social clubs was Adelphi. I do not know if it is still there. This is where the President the senior class was a member, and all-all the Upstate waspy guys. And then there was SOS, which was much more ragged and much more rowdy. Then there was ITK, there was goal yards, and I was somewhat known on campus. I mean, I was six men on the basketball team in my freshman year. I started in my junior year, and I got rushed SOS rushed me. Some of my best friends were in SOS, and I chose Adelphi because that was, you know, that was the prestigious thing to do. And I got so tired of it. By my junior year, I basically dropped out. I got tired of things like the pledge, this pledges with pledge, and then we had sat down like we had this authority. No, yes, no, yes. It just bothered me. I said, I do not want to be part of this, so I dropped out and I became more of the hippie kind of-
IG: 13:46
Well, tell me about the young people who were part of this hippie group.
BS: 13:52
They were-
IG: 13:53
Who were they? They were from Long Island in New York City-
BS: 13:56
Mostly- there was mostly downstate, but some upstate as well. They dress scruff here they most of them were, well, a lot of them were literature majors, very artistic, very creative. Deborah Tannen, okay, big name in Harpur College was a good friend of mine. She was a year behind me, and I hung out. She one of her best friends was my girlfriend at the time, and we and her boyfriend at the time was also a year behind me, Mike Tillis, who is now in Israel with a long, Hasidic kind of a life for many years. And we would double date. I had a car. We would go out after games. Deborah Tennant and I were good friends, and we still are in contact with each other, although I am not, you know, she is Deborah Tannen and I am not. She is really a celebrity. I mean, she is, she is, she is amazing. The last reunion, we spent some time together, I have pictures of my phone with her. She is wonderful. And she was, really, she was an English major. She became, you know, a linguistics PhD. I guess they are related, but that is the kind of folks I was hanging out with. They were not really. Some of them were just hanging out in a snack bar. They were not. Some of them were not good students. Deborah was my girlfriend was and who is your girlfriend? Elaine Selling. I have no idea what has happened to her. She had broken up with a boyfriend before me. We went out. She dumped me to go back with him. That is all what I remember. I am just trying to think there was, who were these kids. I mean, I was friendly with the athletes and kind of this group, you know, I was, I was sort of a bridge between them, of sorts.
IG: 15:58
The athletes were not politicized.
BS: 16:01
Yeah, some of them were.
IG: 16:01
Some of them were.
BS: 16:02
Yeah, but not as much as these kids.
IG: 16:05
Yeah. What kind of things did they talked about? What, what did you talk about when you were with them?
BS: 16:10
Oh, what typically young men talk about? Women basketball exams in school? Nothing that I can remember that is, you know, particularly [crosstalk]
IG: 16:22
[inaudible] on American activities. Did you talk about anything political or [crosstalk] when was in the air at the time?
BS: 16:29
I think the Vietnam War. I cannot remember where that was starting to heat up. But, you know, there were draft issues. You know, we were concerned about the draft. Some of us, some of them, my classmates, went to pretty, not extremes, but went to medical school they could not get into us, and went to Bologna, just, you know, right, basically, to avoid the that is not fair to say, but I went to graduate school, I lasted a semester, and then I went to law school.
IG: 17:07
Where did you go to graduate school?
BS: 17:10
Rutgers in economics. I actually lasted a semester, and then I quit in the second semester. I did not like it. My economics advisor was a guy named John LaTourette. It was a wonderful guy.
IG: 17:24
Yeah. So, you know, just, let us backtrack before you went to law school. So, you know some of the professors that made an impression on you. Can you remember some names?
BS: 17:36
John LaTourette. He was my Economics professor. Took a number of courses with him. There was a guy named Hamilton, associate sociology professor. He was pretty left. He had a good relationship with a lot of these students. There was a guy who taught statistics, I do not remember his name, that I just enjoyed. We had a good relationship. I hate, I hate his statistics. I think I got to be in this, somehow, Van [Robert VanHadel] something. I kind of have an image of him, but he would not remember me. I do not remember him. I lived off campus since my sophomore year, starting my sophomore year, since I was able to, I did, and I lived with some upperclassmen, and I lived with guys in my sophomore year who were dirty, who were stealing exams. They all got kicked out, and I was not and I said, do not, I do not want to see it. Leave me alone. But I was in the house with these guys. It was very uncomfortable. But did not never I was, I always, I was, you know, what is that word Teflon? I was Teflon. About that me. I never got, nobody ever talked to me. But I never got pulled in. But I knew the guy that knew the combination to this, and then he was able to get the exams and go away. I do not, I do not want this. I do not want to do this. And I would, you know, I was pretty good student in economics. I was actually second highest in the class in that in that major. It is hard to say, but those guys got kicked out in my sophomore year. My roommate, I told you about, he was involved in that. There was about half dozen-dozen that did not graduate because they were shamed out of the school. And it was, it was a was scandalous, what was going on. And, you know, I did not blow the whistle on these guys. I just go away. I do not want to know about it.
IG: 19:41
Right-right. Kennedy assassination.
BS: 19:45
Oh yeah, our yearbook. I remember I was in the snack bar. You know, everybody remembers where they were. And there is a picture in my yearbook, which I have at home. My house burnt down, but that did not burn. And. Then whoever took I-I am in one of the pictures, and we are just like this, you know, totally morose and sad and looking down, and that was captured in the yearbook. Did you ever see the yearbooks back?
IG: 20:16
Yes-yes-yes.
BS: 20:17
Okay, there is pictures of the Kennedy the day Kennedy was killed. Very moving, but it was just I was I remember being in the snack bar. Snack bar was like the womb. It was where everybody went. And I will tell you a cute story. Perhaps I am now living in Phoenix. I have all kids who are about how old eight, seven, ten, eight and eleven, and a bunch of families going to the movies on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, and we are going to see the In-laws. And I had no idea Andrew Bergman wrote this, and I am sitting in the movie, and I am laughing louder, harder than everybody else in the theater, and I said out loud, and my wife will swear to this, this feels like I am in the snack bar, and it was Andrew Bergman who hung out in a snack bar. This is same humor that I grew up with in Harpur College. Was in that movie, you know, the movie
IG: 21:24
With De Niro.
BS: 21:25
No Peter Faulk.
IG: 21:27
Oh-oh [crosstalk]
BS: 21:29
Go see it on Netflix. It is one of the it is, Peter Faulk and Alan Arkin.
IG: 21:36
Yeah, they are great actors.
BS: 21:37
And Alan Arkin is this dentist, and Peter Faulk is his, who knows? Why is his CIA agent? We do not know for sure. And he gets Alan Arkin, who is his most upright, prudish kind of guy, to go to South America to some banana republic. And they get into these scrapes and-and they are running because people are shooting at them. And the famous scene is, is that Peter Faullk is saying serpentine-serpentine so they have to go back. Serpentines means when we run like this. So, he has already run straight, has not been shot now he has to go back and sir. It is hilarious, but it was the humor that I knew and felt comfortable with from Harpur College snack bar.
IG: 22:17
It comes from another place. It comes from another place. It comes from, you know, maybe New York City.
BS: 22:26
Oh, yeah. Andrew Burton was from New York City.
IG: 22:28
Exactly.
BS: 22:29
Of course.
IG: 22:29
That is where-
BS: 22:30
But that, but we infected the snack bar, and that is, you know, that is how we sat around. And there is those that have, not jokes that we told, but those-those-
IG: 22:41
Kind of humor.
BS: 22:41
Yeah.
IG: 22:42
Which is, how would you describe this humor?
BS: 22:46
It is kind of little bit it is a it is a little screwy. It is not, it is not [inaudible] young men telling jokes. It is kind of a warp view of the world. The other story I heard about Andrew Bergman, who wrote Blazing Saddles. Now that you have seen, right?
IG: 23:07
Yes.
BS: 23:08
And Mel Brooks confirmed this about two or three years ago. He had this one-on-one interview on HBO for a couple hours. Was one of my- I was a big thing at Harpur College too. Was a 2000-year-old man? They just came out. Mel Brooks and Carl Erin is 2000-year-old man on record came out just before at that time, and we used to speak to each other from phrases from the record, I will never walk. I do not walk for a bus will always be another. You know, fear is the main compulsion, propulsion, whatever. The story I heard, and it was kind of confirmed by Mel Brooks, is that Bergman wrote this book Blazing Saddles. He went on to history at Wisconsin for post graduate. And it's, I never read the book, and a movie theater picked it up and says to Bergman, write the script. And this is a story I heard. Bergman had a lot of trouble writing the screenplay, and he was not producing, and he had writer's block, and he had all those problems. So, the studio says, "Okay, we will give you some help." So, Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor are hired to help Andrew Bergman write this script. And can you, I always say this, can you imagine sitting in a room with these guys? They are crazy. I mean [crosstalk] of course, everybody would have had a peak into that. So Blazing Saddles then gets published, I mean, produced, and it is incredible. And it is that humor. Also, it is the opening scene when Mel Brooks is Indian chief and comes up on these African Americans who are working on the railroad, and he goes schwatzers.
IG: 24:54
[laughs]
BS: 24:54
It is class, it is classic. That is classic.
IG: 24:58
That is very New York.
BS: 25:01
How much more New York can you be-
IG: 25:03
No, you cannot.
BS: 25:04
-than Mel Brooks, and it is just, I went to see Blazing Saddles. I had just it was early (19)70s. I moved here in (19)71 to Phoenix, and we went out with another couple, also from New York, who have been here a few years long, more than we have, and we went to see Blazing Saddles in the movies. And as we are walking into the theater, there is this family of cowboys and cow girls and cow, cow father, cow mother and five, five or six cow kids in their cowboy hats and their boots. They are thinking they go to see, going to see a shoot them up. And they go into a Wayne movie, right? They go in, they sit down in the theater and kind of watching them. And the opening scene, when Mel Brooks goes Schwartz, they on-on mass, get up and leave the theater. Phoenix is not New York, no, it is not. It is not, it is, it is more and more it is, you know, it is, it is progressing. This was a small Southwestern town. It is still conservative, but there is a lot more of that happening. liberal stuff happening anyway. So, I do not that is fine. I knew Andrew Bergman a little bit. And I remember when I went to see the movie with Bert Parks that he wrote about stuffed animals. They were killing these rare birds and rare animals. I forget what they are doing. It was, it was a ridiculously comic type of thing. Bert Parks played his Miss America role, and Marlon Brando had a role in that, in which he played, which he mocked himself in The Godfather. And I remember writing a letter to, I do not know if he ever wrote back, writing a letter to Andrew Bergen and say, “How did you ever get Marlon Brando to sit down and accept this role?” I forget the name of the movie, but it is a Bergman was good. He was he has not done anything in a long time. I do not think, but I think he was very successful. I think he had a place on Central Park, South or North, or whatever, and.
IG: 27:26
Let us talk about you then.
BS: 27:27
Okay.
IG: 27:28
Okay, so, I mean, you obviously had an interest in comedy.
BS: 27:33
Well, yeah, I like [crosstalk]
IG: 27:35
Films?
BS: 27:36
Yeah.
IG: 27:37
Was that- was there an opportunity to do that at Harpur was-
BS: 27:43
A little bit.
IG: 27:43
Film Club, or-
BS: 27:44
I have to go to the restroom. Can we shut this off for a while when we do that? Professor is the one that I remember was Sidney Harcave, who was a preeminent Russian history scholar. I took two or three classes with him. We used his textbook Russia, a history and I remember once I had three finals on one day, and I was freaking out, and I went to him, and his advice to me was, get a good night's sleep. I wanted to take it some other time, but he would not do that. He was really fantastic professor, and I really enjoyed his classes, walking around campus. I am remembering now things like Sid Arthur Herman has his novels, the kids walking around reading that stuff, part of the, you know, the evolution of-of these young people who are starting to sprout their own wings and separate themselves from their parents’ generation and from and changing the cultural surroundings that they were part of. There was a beehive of that kind of activity back in the (19)60s. [crosstalk] Yeah, I mean, I did not understand I was not the scholar they were. So, I was kind of listening to them talk about it. But I had a girlfriend who was a literature major, and Deborah Tanner was her best friend. I mean, I had, if I wanted to talk to these people, I had, I had to pick up the book that they were reading, kind of and but I enjoyed it. I mean, it was, it was a wonderful awakening coming, you know, coming of age kind of a thing. There was, you know, I still look back upon those days terribly fondly, and always felt very fortunate that I had that opportunity. But on the other hand, having gone to Harpur College, there was a little bit of a of a burden in that when I graduated law school and I went out interviewing for jobs, I put down Harpur College and all that stuff. The first question I got from everybody interviewing me, where is Harpur College? Nobody ever heard of it. This is 1968, (19)69 and it was a bit of a, you know, an obstacle.
IG: 30:13
It was in you-
BS: 30:15
It was founded in 1948 and it had an amazing reputation, but nobody knew about it. It was not known. And these high-priced lawyers in these large law firms who went to all the Ivy League schools and were snobs about that, their first question to me was, where is Harpur College? So, I would not answer, but I had this. It was, it was incredible. Every single interview I got that same question. They never heard of it. They have now.
IG: 30:48
They have now, and they have-
BS: 30:51
And, I am sorry, they changed the name because the name, you know, I understand, [crosstalk], yeah, they changed it two or three times. It was SUNY at Binghamton. It was Binghamton University. Harpur College developed a great name. I am sorry that it was not still not the name of the school.
IG: 31:09
Yeah, because, as someone told me, you know it your generation got the end and the generation. Well, while Harpur College existed, that you got an elite education, liberal arts education for almost no money.
BS: 31:34
Right. I think we had an incoming class. It was told student body was about 1000 our incoming class is about 300 something. 10 percent of those kids were valedictorians in high school. Mean, these were top students in each of their schools who could not afford to go to an Ivy League school. This was the their-their opportunity, and the school thrived because of not only the professors being like Sidney Harcave, this preeminent scholar in his field. There were others in geology, there were in in all different all different departments, but the kids were very active and creative, and they part of what created that environment, not just the professors. It was that it was this frenetic activity, the civil rights movement and the war in Vietnam, obviously was heating up things I was thinking about that one of my good friends who was a year ahead of me. He was on the basketball team, Kenny Hoffman. His name is on the Vietnam Memorial in DC. He was a pilot, and he was killed, and it was not much after we graduated, we needless to say, most of the students were very actively opposed to the war, and I was really was not sure I was one of them. And after I graduated, I marched in down Fifth Avenue. I was anti-war, and I really did not understand as much until I saw Ken Burns thing on-on public TV.
IG: 33:28
Emily being your- you said, Emily.
BS: 33:32
No-no, Ken Burns.
IG: 33:34
Ken Burns. No. You said, somebody did not understand.
BS: 33:39
I did not.
IG: 33:39
You did not understand.
BS: 33:40
I did not understand why I was so it was the- my friends were opposed to it. So, I am I did not really understand the gravity, the gravitas, the you know, that, you know, I hated Nixon and I hated the war and I did all that stuff, but not. It was not until I became a lot, until recently, really, when all came together with-with-with Ken Burns's incredible documentary on the Vietnam War. It was amazing. It was just a hell hole. Kick any deeper and deeper, and I did not really appreciate it at that time. I was not as knowledgeable. It was not as aware.
IG: 34:21
And all the people that orchestrated it already knew that it was,
BS: 34:25
I am not sure. They were kids. They were rebelling. They were revolting.
IG: 34:26
The administration-
BS: 34:28
Oh yeah, they knew Johnson knew he was caught me, lied about Tonkin Gulf and all that to get us in there, just like George W Bush did to get us into Iraq.
IG: 34:43
So, there was Vietnam moving over. All of you did that create anxiety?
BS: 34:51
Yeah, sure, the draft and the war and all that. I do not remember it exactly, but we were so opposed to it, we could never see ourselves carrying a gun in Vietnam. It did not make any sense.
IG: 35:07
Did your professors support you?
BS: 35:10
A lot of them did.
BS: 35:11
They did not need to. They did not need it. We did not need protection. We did not need protection. We were not doing anything illegal. We were not doing anything that was going to get us in trouble. We were not, you know-
IG: 35:11
Did they sort of protect you?
IG: 35:26
Did they encourage you to go on to grad school?
BS: 35:29
John LaTourette encouraged me to go on to economics. He gave me a reference letter. And actually, lots of rec, I think, was from Rutgers. I had spent some time there, and he got me a fellowship, which I felt badly about, but I said, it is not for me.
IG: 35:51
So, what happened next? You dropped out of Rutgers. How did you become? I mean, give me sort of the arc of your career. How did you become a superior court judge?
BS: 36:06
That is a very it is interesting to me. I am not sure to anybody else, but I am trying to think of whether I should, I should say this on the record, but I dropped out of graduate school in Rutgers after one semester, and I knew that I am looking at being drafted. I do not have any-any educational protection, so I applied. I had been accepted in graduate school at City University in New York, and I lasted. I went about a month, and I just stopped going. I never quit. I never announced it resignation letter. I just stopped going. So, I am knowing that in my mind, I got to, you know, I got to figure out something a lot of a lot of people I knew were signing up on in reserve units to avoid getting drafted, to delay it by a year or two, my best man at my wedding who was simpatico, and all the things that we felt at the time. He winds up going to officer candidate training school in the Marines, and he is now in Vietnam as a second lieutenant, which is the most dangerous position on the battlefield. He is the guy saying, follow me, and he gets shot in the back by his own men. He survived, thank God, but he went, he signed up in a reserve unit that got activated, and he is now in Vietnam. That is the kind of stuff that was happening that was after we graduated. So going to law school had a lot to do with figuring that piece out. I did not really ever dream of being a lawyer.
IG: 37:47
What did you dream of becoming?
BS: 37:49
Nothing.
IG: 37:50
Nothing?
BS: 37:51
I could not play professional baseball because I was not good enough and I was too short for basketball. So, I had no dreams. My father had a nice business. My father was such a wonderful man. He would have embraced the fact, if I would have gone into business with him, it would have been the happiest man in the world. He understood that I did not want to do that, and he encouraged me to do whatever I wanted. So, I went to law school. I applied late. I got accepted to Brooklyn Law School, St John's law school, and I think I was rejected NYU in Columbia, maybe because it was late, maybe because I was not good enough. A lot of Harpur graduates were at St John's, people a year ahead of me or two, and I knew them pretty well, and it was easy for me to get in, you know, to kind of be engulfed and protected by them. So, I went to St John's. I was living at my parents’ house, and on Long Island. I take the train every day from Long Island to Brooklyn. Was in Brooklyn, and now it is in Queens, and I did real well. I was like top five in my first-first semester, and I thought I flunked out. I went on a ski trip with some of these my friends from Harpur who were your head of me, and I told them, I am not even buying my books for next semester I flunked out. They laughed at me. I am telling you, I flunked out. We were at the ski trip, and my mother calls and she reads me my grades, and they sounded okay. And I tell these graceton, these friends of mine, they said, “My God, you are probably number one in the class.” I said “I was number five.” I made Law Review, which is a whole other world in law school, it is a you spend a lot of time with the elites of the elite students in law school, putting together a legal magazine, periodical. I scholarly, and you spend hours reading and editing and discussing and looking for it is, it is a whole other life. And I did that for the rest of my law school career. And I did, I did not study as hard because I had Law Review for one thing. And I thought it was a piece of cake now. So, I went from like an 85 average to a 77 average in my second semester, then I kind of leveled out. I did okay. I did not. Was not good enough to get a job in the big Wall Street firms because they never heard of Harpur College. For one thing, my first job out of law school-
IG: 40:17
When was this? What year?
BS: 40:20
I graduated law school in (19)68 if I would have graduated with my class would have been (19)67 but I spent that year screwing around graduate school, and I still had to worry about the draft, because now I was about 25 and 26 is the magic number, so one of the things I did was to apply. I got a job within what is called OEO, legal services for the poor, Office of Economic Opportunity, federal concept, and John-Robert Kennedy had a lot to do with that, bringing publicly funded law firms, in effect, into the ghettos to assist the people who live there.
IG: 41:08
Is that a precursor of legal aid-
BS: 41:10
Legal Aid in New York was criminal, so this was the civil side.
IG: 41:14
I see, I see.
BS: 41:15
And that is where I got a job and I applied to the to the Selective Service that I think what I am doing here is more important to my country than carrying a gun in Vietnam did not work, so I eventually did not, did not have to get drafted. It is a long story that I am not going to tell now, but a lot of what I did, and a lot of my-my-my friends, were doing this frenzy time was figuring out ways not to get killed in Vietnam. Trump does. Trump did the same thing. You know, my I never mind. So, I really took the law school, and I graduated in (19)68 I am working at Bedford Stuyvesant, legal services for the community center, whatever borrow legal services for the poor, going down every day with 10,15, files the landlord and tenant court representing people that were being evicted and it was not going anywhere. It was not a job that [phone rings] I will let Chelsea answer that. So, then I got a job in a small Wall Street firm does not exist anymore. It was like 12 lawyers, not a big they had some big clients, some big Israeli connected Bank Leumi, Israel was a big client of theirs and other Israeli connected businesses. And then my wife.
IG: 42:58
How did you meet your wife? Is that your wife?
BS: 43:01
That is my wife.
IG: 43:01
Yeah, I thought so.
BS: 43:03
We have a great first date story. But I guess, since I am revealing so much about myself, I will tell you that in a moment. But my wife said to me, this is now 1970ish, and I am working now at [inaudible] and Bookstein, no longer it in Bedford, Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. And she is from Connecticut. She went to NYU, that is where we met, and she is working in the city we have by the time we move; our daughter was eight months old. But before we had children, she was working at banker's trust thing, which is now Bank of America, and doing very well working on whatever. She was having horrible experiences on the subway with perverts on the subway, and she said, "I cannot I cannot stand this anymore. I- we have to move." So, the logical thing for any New Yorker like myself, she is not a New Yorker, was to move to Long Island or Westchester or New Jersey. And we looked at some houses, and then we kind of looked at each other, and we said, “Boy, if we get, if we move and keep this job, we are stuck for the rest. We cannot move. We are, we are just imprisoned by this system. We cannot afford ever, or buy in a house we cannot afford whatever.” So, we said, “Let us take a look at this.” I never heard of Phoenix. I heard of Phoenix. I never knew anything about it, and I was out of a law school friend of mine, we graduated, and we were at a party at his house, and we are sitting around, what do you want to move to? What do you want to do? I do not want to go to Miami. It is too it is too much like New York. It is too much the same. So, somebody says, What about Phoenix, Arizona? I said, “Where is it? What is it?” So, I had, we had from law school. We had these little two by four little diaries, pocket diaries that a large publishing house handed out. And they had an atlas, and they had all the states broken down by Northeast, Northwest, and there was Arizona, right next to New Mexico, next to Texas, and it was close to Las Vegas. This far from LA looked like a good place, and I started reading about it. They have not. They just established an NBA basketball franchise that is important. So, sight unseen. Basically, I came out here for an exploratory run. Nothing happened, and we packed up. Six months later, we packed without a job, we packed up. We just moved out here. Some connections. I had to take the bar exam in those days. You had to have a six-month residency, and then you took the bar exam. Not true anymore today, so I got a job in a firm because I was not licensed to just do Scrivener work for a couple $100 a month. I still had to look for a real job. And I finally got a job in a law firm downtown, a prominent personal injury law firm, which I knew nothing about. And I was there from (19)72 to (19)77 when I formed a partnership with an older friend of mine, and we were together from (19)77 to about (19)84 and we kind of split the sheets, and we kept the name, but I was on my own, kind of building a practice. Meanwhile, friends of mine, good friends of mine, are applying and becoming judges on the Superior Court or state court of general jurisdiction, and I am talking to my friends and, "Gee, that sounds like a nice gig. I mean, I like to do that. " And I am 42, 43 years old, kind of young, but it is- we have merit selection in Arizona. We do not have general elections. Least the three largest counties in Arizona, you go through a screening process, you make an application, there is a commission that is half lawyers, half lay people presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. You submit your application. In my day, there was like 75 applicants for two positions. They call through them, 15 or so are then interviewed, then they take five and they send it to the governor, and the governor must choose from that short list, and half of that short list has to be different political parties. So, depoliticize it is to bring it is called Merit selection, and it was kind of new at the time it came in, oh, maybe a few years before that, I would never run for election. It is not who I am. Bruce Babbitt was the governor at the time, and I did my application, got my interview, and I was appointed on the first shot, which was not remarkable, but it was usually it is two or three times when you to get it. I was very fortunate.
IG: 48:16
What kind of cases did you try?
BS: 48:18
Well, we have three departments. We have, well, we have more than that. We have a civil department, we have a criminal department, we have a probate department. Most of my time as a private lawyer was in civil. I did not do any criminal, really. I did some domestic relation. Domestic Relations was the other one. Domestic Relations, probate, civil and criminal. I did when I left the firm and joined with this guy. I needed business, so I did anything that came in the door, and I did some divorce work, which nobody wants to do. So, the- our court is a court of general jurisdiction, which means we are, we are not a local justice of the peace court. We are not- we do not hear small matters. We hear major matters, major felonies, murders, kidnapping and we hear major civil cases for millions of dollars as well as little cases. So, we hear, as a civil in the civil department, we hear everything that could be filed, medical malpractice case, lawyer malpractice case, products liability case, automobile accidents, partnership dissolutions, real estate fraud, transactions, everything that you ever learned about in law school is on your plate as a civil department judge, criminal is what you would expect in criminal. I had no, no background the criminal, but I took to it, and I need today, 10, 15, years, 12 years after I retired, I will run into one of the lawyers used to practice in my court, and they think of me as a criminal person, criminal, you know, and I am not. It took me six months to learn the language I. Had no idea what was going on when I was on criminal. I was scared to death. I mean, I look out on the morning. We have a morning calendar in criminal and that is when we do our sentencings, emotions for release, our conferences before we did our trials. And there would be maybe 12 inmates sitting there in the jury box waiting for their case to be called, and on that side of the room, maybe their family members are sitting behind them, and on the other side of the room is the is, is the victims, and then there is the prosecutors and the defense lawyers. And I used to walk out on a bench. I used to look at this array, and I say to myself, I know less than every one of these people in this courtroom about what I am doing, but it took me about six months, and all of a sudden, I had-
IG: 50:49
You gained the confidence just by doing up and doing it.
BS: 50:53
Reading it and figuring it out and understanding the lexicon. And it is not really hard. It is the easiest for me. It is the easiest. It was the easiest assignment. Criminal. There was some-
IG: 51:04
What was the hardest?
BS: 51:06
Civil was the hardest in terms of the difficulty of the issues. The hardest assignment probably was domestic relations, because you had to resolve unresolvable disputes. There was never enough money to go around, never enough time with the children. And you had people fighting it, you know, because they hated each other, and that was difficult on the toll it took on you personally, civil was the most difficult because the issues were the most, the most difficult.
IG: 51:44
Like what issues did you-
BS: 51:47
Just itis evolved. Now, you know, I have been gone 12 years, but I do mediation, so I see the cases at the mediation stage, and there is summary judgments, you know, 10 inches thick that you have to read through and prepare for oral argument to decide and on our court. We do not have any research assistance. We do not have any staff. We do it by ourselves. It is very, very time consuming, and it's, you know, every commercial case, they think they have entitlement to a summary judgment as a matter of law. So, they file one or two or more, and it is pages and pages and pages of stuff on. Could be economic loss rule. It could be on, you know, whatever legal doctrine is being bad need about, and it is constantly evolving and changing. You got to keep up. I got invited fairly often to speak at State Bar seminars on various issues, which was a challenge for me.
IG: 52:50
What kind of issues Did you speak about?
BS: 52:53
Motion practice, how to write motions, how to be more persuasive. I wrote about evidence, evidentiary things I spoke about number of times on some ethical issues the Code of Professional Conduct.
IG: 53:11
Such as?
BS: 53:12
Candor toward the tribunal. Point 3.3. Of the Code of Professional Conduct, you must be candid in front of a judge. You cannot be misleading or lie. And there are cases that are very interesting reads, and I would talk about that, you know, beyond the faculty, talking about things like that, oh, I do not remember all the things on my website, if you I do not know if you looked at my website. You might want to do that. I describe some of the things, you know, speech, speaking engagements, I have not had much lately. That is part of my problem. If it is a problem to where I am not as busy now, 12 years after I retired as it was three years after I retired, because nobody knows me anymore, I was a known item when I retired from the bench.
IG: 53:59
Why do not you teach?
BS: 54:01
I also taught at school.
IG: 54:02
Really?
BS: 54:04
I taught at ASU Sandra Day O'Connor School of Law. Taught for about five or six years. They had a very interesting civil practice. No, not civil practice, lawyering Theory and Practice class, which was basically a hands-on student. It was a lottery to get into those classes. They had to argue cases, try a case, and I was one of the faculty that took one of the little sections. And for about five or six years, I was a what is the word that you use for a professor?
IG: 54:43
Adjunct.
BS: 54:44
What?
IG: 54:44
Adjunct.
BS: 54:45
Adjunct at a new law school, which is now going out of business, Phoenix School of Law. I taught civil practice there for a few times, for a few semesters, while I was on the bench, because I was thinking of doing that when I retired being a law professor. But I did, fortunately, I did that on a full-time basis while still on the bench. I said, this is real work. I do not want to do this. The worst part of it was the grading. Was the creating the final exam and then grading it. I do not want to still hard. So, I just-
IG: 55:18
Got a graduate assistant?
BS: 55:19
No-no, I was the I was assisting the other professors in doing this. They were not going to assist me.
IG: 55:29
No. Things, things run differently, actually, not differently. But, you know, you could employ a graduate assistant from the law department.
BS: 55:38
Possibly. But I just, I like the I like the classroom. I like the interaction with the class. I am actually going down next this later this month, two young lawyers I know are teaching this class at ASU, and they invited me to be a guest for one of their nights, which I did last year. It is fun. I enjoy tremendously interacting with young lawyers. I enjoy interacting when a judge, when a new judge, is appointed to my bench, if I happen to have some connection, maybe through a friend or whatever, I try to reach out and say, here is some tips and whatever, I enjoy that.
IG: 56:19
Have you considered speaking at Binghamton? I mean, there is no law school, but there is a pre law program.
BS: 56:24
I have not considered it, but-
IG: 56:24
You have not considered it.
BS: 56:24
Well, it is a long trip.
IG: 56:27
It is a long trip.
BS: 56:33
I do. I go back. I went back to reunion on three, four years ago. I was there in 2008 which is when I got the Distinguished Alumni Award. So, I went back for that, and I went back once or twice after that, both times saying studying at my friend Tony D Aristotle's house on Carroll Street Downtown Binghamton, right next to the Italian American club. You know what that is?
IG: 56:56
Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah.
BS: 56:58
It has got this old house is over 100 years old. It is great.
IG: 57:03
You promised to tell me about-
BS: 57:06
My first date. People actually asked me to tell this story. My wife hates it every now, but last couple times, tell them how we had our first date. Okay, I am in my second year in law school in Brooklyn, New York, at St John's University. And a friend of mine from Harpur, a teammate named Roy Tompowski. He may have run across him. He is a pretty active alum. He is an accountant. Lives in Westchester, and Roy calls me, I want to be disparaging, because I am on the record, and says I got a girl for you. All right, Roy, you know what-what is the story? Well, she is at NYU uptown. She is a junior, she is very pretty, and she is very smart, and she is from Connecticut, okay, I will give her a call. So, I-I call once, and I do not roommate answers call another time, another time, and finally, we make this date for Friday night. What I find out later is that she had a boyfriend that she goes out with on Saturday nights, but she is trying to break up with him. So, she tells Roy at a party that she went to camp, the same camp Roy went to, that is the connection. And she was at a party of all the camp guys, and she went up to Roy, and she said, you know, you have a guy for me. So, Roy says, Yeah, but he may be too short for you peanuts anyway. So, she has worried about that. That is what she knows. So, we finally make this day for Friday night. And I figured I am living in Brooklyn. I had this new TR four that I got when I graduated. Sometimes I got somewhere along the way, and she is up in the Bronx, you know, the city at all, New York City. Okay, good. So I am in Brooklyn, Atlantic Avenue area by downtown Brooklyn. She is up upper she is right by, well, she is NYU uptown, okay, which is where the Hall of Fame was, Fordham Road, and about 200 and something street go up the West Side Highway. So, I decide to plan this evening for this first date for this hick from Connecticut. So, I decide the theme will be, I am going to show her how real New Yorkers live. So, I took up there, pick her up. I do not you know. First Date never met her, and the first stop was the Upper West Side to the Improv, okay, which was just opening at the time year or two. We do not remember what act we saw, but we think it was probably somebody like, was not Robin Williams, but it was Steve. What is his name? Could have been. Somebody? No, no, it was another guy. Used to be a school teacher in New York. Anyway, I have seen 1000 times. Cannot remember his name. He has been on Broadway a lot in the Wasserstein plays wrong. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, we do not remember what we saw. That was the first stop to about 10ish or so, and then I the next stop, I do not tell her, is to go from the Upper West Side down to the lower east side to catch this delicatessen. Okay, we are really, real New Yorkers. Hang out. So, we are driving down. We are making first date kind of conversation. What is your favorite color, that kind of stuff? Who is your favorite singer? What do you know, all that garbage? So, we drive, I drive, and I park, and she does not say anything. We go into cats' you ever been to cats?
BS: 1:00:50
It is cavernous. It is huge, and you have a choice when you go in. You can either go to the left for waiter service, or you go to the right for counter service. Waiter service, a little more expensive. I am a poor law student. I cannot afford the waiter service. I tell her I would love to have a pastrami on rye, but I cannot afford that. So, I have what New York is called two with which are two hot dogs [inaudible] and sauerkraut. For those who are not initiated, she announces that she does not really like this kind of food. It is almost like Annie Hall. She does not really like this food, so she orders a turkey on rye. I go get my two hot dogs with we continue our small talk and in cats as you get this little ticket that you, they punch as to how much you owe, we are standing on line now to pay. We are about three or four deep, and at the cash register there is this older guy, probably 30 years younger than I am now, but an older guy, little bit of a palsy, a little bit of shaking, and he is obviously an owner. He is looking around making sure nobody is stealing any silverware, that kind of a look. So, we are getting closer and closer, and then we get about one removed, and this old guy says, "Hi Willa." She goes, "Hi, Benny." What is going on here? So, Benny, turns out he is a minority owner of Katz's delicatessen. The majority owner is her uncle, Willa's uncle, Lenny, who is her mother's brother, Willa is named after William Katz, her maternal grandfather, who pre deceased her. She is named Willa because her mother wanted to name her after her father. So, she is named after the founder of Katz's delicatessen. This is her family.
IG: 1:00:50
Yes.
IG: 1:02:40
And she did not tell you.
IG: 1:02:41
What does your wife do? Did she continue working in a bank?
BS: 1:02:41
No, she-she, dropped out of, I think she dropped out of graduate. I do not think she ever got her graduate degree. Children were born. We moved out here. She started working for me when I was in practice, and kind of like doing my books and stuff, not doing any reception in and then when I got appointed to the bank, she was without a job, so then she went to work for a friend of ours. Was a lawyer, kind of running his office. And then I think he retired, and then she basically stopped working in that kind of a situation. She does a lot of charitable work. Now she has got five grandkids, and all that back is not great.
BS: 1:02:41
Never said a word, and Benny comped us. We did not pay. So, I am going, I could have a pastrami sandwich. And after we got married, we were still living in New York for those first three years. We used to get care packages from Katz. You cannot believe the pounds of roast beef that we would get hot dogs like an electrical wire. We did not pay for it. So that is my first date story I submit to you. It is one of the best first date stories you will ever hear. So, she never told me. She never she cut she was from Connecticut. She did not really, she said, this looks familiar. She knew it when she walked in there. But driving up, she never said anything, and certainly did not say anything when she walked in the Annie Hall thing, if you remember Annie Hall, Woody Allen in a deli with what is her name, Diane Keaton, and she orders like a roast beef on white with butter, and he goes, shiska. Was not quite like that, because she is not a shiska; so, but my wife, but she does not like this food.
IG: 1:04:47
Well, she is beautiful. I you know, let us think about wrapping up this conversation. But you know, the final question that I ask. What lessons do you did you learn from the-the- this time in your life, that Harpur College?
BS: 1:05:11
Lessons that I learned, the important importance of friendship, I made really good friends that I am so many. Some of them, I am still friendly with that. I am still the importance of having that warmth in your life, that support in your life, people who care about you, people that you care about. It was really a very nurturing place. In fact, when people graduate like Mickey Greenberg. You must know Mickey. Everybody knows Mickey well. One of me is very close friend of mine. We were teammates together. He was a great basketball player. He has died in the wool Brooklyn, New York. His parents were there. He lives in Binghamton. Since he graduated. He it is the womb. It was considered the womb, but there is that nurturing sense of the place that I carry with me, and I look back so fondly on, what did I learn? I mean, I learned what anybody does who becomes more worldly wise and on his own or her own, without parents constantly saying, do your homework, that kind of thing. You got to figure things out for yourself. But that is true in any that is true in any university, but in particular in Binghamton, I am not sure it was a learning thing as much as an experience of the warmth and the nurture and of the surroundings of the people that you were there with. It was an amazing experience for me.
IG: 1:06:41
Well, thank you very much for this amazing interview. Been very wonderful talking to you.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Barry Schneider
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Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
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Schneider, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Description
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Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2019-03-11
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In Copyright
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eng
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Sound
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Barry Schneider.mp3
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2019-03-11
Is Part Of
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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66:48 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/413da5af9b25718fd861534ef0c6d4d3.mp3
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5129bc3b154a1b81fedada515387a027.jpg
33662591b079390becc63ebbb7aa414c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2019-04-02
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Dr. Eric D. Weitz
Year of Graduation
1974
Biographical Text
Dr. Eric Weitz is Distinguished Professor of History and the former Dean of Humanities and Arts at The City College of New York (CCNY). Trained in modern German and European history, Weitz has also worked in international and global history. He is currently completing <em>A World Divided: A Global History of Nation-States and Human Rights since the Eighteenth Century</em>.
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Interview with Dr. Eric D. Weitz
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Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae
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Weitz, Eric D. ; Gashurov, Irene
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Dr. Eric Weitz is Distinguished Professor of History and the former Dean of Humanities and Arts at The City College of New York (CCNY). Trained in modern German and European history, Weitz has also worked in international and global history. He is currently completing <em>A World Divided: A Global History of Nation-States and Human Rights since the Eighteenth Century</em>.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2019-04-02
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eng
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Eric Weitz.mp3
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2019-04-02
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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53:49 minutes
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Cleary
Biographical Text
John Cleary, a native of Scotia, NY, was a student at Kent State University when he was shot in the chest by the National Guardsman. After his recovery, Cleary received his Bachelor's Degree in Architecture from Kent State University and practiced in Pittsburg, PA until his retirement.
Date of Interview
2022-01-26
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
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1:20:39
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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Digital file
Material Type
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
"Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Protest; Activism; Architectural degree; College campus; College education; Life magazine.
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Cleary
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 26 January 2022
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:01
All right, we are all set. I can put it on? Okay, I am going to put you on... All right. Again, John, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. I always start out the interviews with a question about your early years. Could you, could you describe your growing up years, where you were born, what kind of a neighborhood you came from, what your parents did for a living, kind of your hometown environment during your elementary and secondary school years?
JC: 00:34
Sure. I actually grew up in a very rural area in upstate New York, near Schenectady, Albany. The actual name of the town was Scotia. And we actually live probably about five to six miles outside of Scotia. So we were really in a very rural area. My parents had a small Cape Cod house on probably about three acres of land. Actually, they were right near kind of an intersection. And on the one corner, the intersection was Centre Glenville Methodist Church which we went to, we attended. And so it was basically within walking distance of our house, even though we were in a rural area. And then on the other side of the intersection was Glendale Elementary School, where I basically went to, you know, first through sixth, you know, I spent, I was very much of an outdoor person and my younger years, spent a lot. I was involved in scouting quite a bit. And so we did a lot of camping trips and fishing trips. And I just really enjoyed that aspect of it. Trying to think here, oh and then we you know, these were the days when you kind of had pickup baseball games, no, no adults involved. Everyone grabbed their mitts and a baseball. And since we were within walking distance to the elementary school, there was a ball field in the back. And I just remember in spring and summer, after school, going over there and some of the kids did not have gloves. So when you, when you were in the outfield, and you got your turn at bat, you just dropped your glove on the ground where it was, and then people would run out and they would share your gloves but that was just kind of our upbringing. Probably in about fifth or sixth grade, I really got interested in skiing. And my parents, there was a golf course, probably within a 30 minutes’ drive of our house where they set up a rope tow in the winter. And so I would go over there, they dropped me off at eight in the morning and pick me up at five and I skied all day and have a great- -great time of it. Later, when I got into high school, we used to have a ski club and my parents had dropped me off. We would get a bus at like six in the morning and drive two to three hours. You know we were at the foothills of the Adirondacks and close to Vermont. And so we would ski a different resort every Saturday. And gosh I remember I think this is like, you know, it was not a school bus, it was pretty nice Coach bus and I think that the cost of the bus and the lift ticket was like $7.
SM: 03:33
Wow. It is a little different today [laughs].
JC: 03:51
No, it is different today could not even get a, probably could not even get a hamburger and a coke for that.
SM: 04:29
[laughs] That is true, when you were a kid were you a Pittsburgh pirate fan?
JC: 04:34
Well I grew up in upstate New York so.
SM: 04:36
Okay, who was your, who your favorite players?
JC: 04:42
You know what I did not really follow the-the you know, well I followed the Yankees and gosh, you were going to, you were going to try to- there was of course Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford. There were you know some of the other major players. My dad was a huge New York Giants fan. So I remember on Sunday afternoons, sitting in the living room and watching football with my dad.
SM: 05:13
Yeah. I am a big Giants fan. I grew up in Ithaca and Cortland. So that is, that Giant's country.
JC: 05:20
Yeah, there you go.
SM: 05:21
Yeah. When you were, how did your parents and your young peer friends feel about the issues in the news that were taking place during those early years, particularly in the early (19)60s, their thoughts on, you know, at the dinner table when you were with your parents or your, really your friends in school. Did you ever talk about the-the war in Vietnam, the civil rights movement and some of the other movements that were taking place at that time, some for the first time?
JC: 05:53
Well, I mean, I have to be honest here and say that really, I was not really political at all, I was kind of in my own little bubble in upstate New York. And basically, like I said, I was very much involved with the doing things outdoors and did not watch hardly any TV, did not watch or read any, any papers per se. We did not really talk politics at the dinner table. Usually, it was about the day's events, or, you know, when I say day's events, meaning what I had done, or what my parents had done, or you know, those-those types of issues. We really did not talk politics at all in our family.
SM: 06:48
Did-did you ever, just as just as you now, this is not talking about, did you ever feel that you were something- this was way before college- that your generation was so different than any other generation? Because it was the biggest generation in history, because you were one of the children of the world war two generation- 74 million. And it seemed like everything in the news in the late (19)40s, (19)50s and (19)60s was all about these young boomers. Did you ever think about the, being a part of that generation that seems to be in the news every minute?
JC: 07:26
To be honest, I really did not and, and, you know, probably in my own naïveté you know, I was just kind of cruising along with my, you know, friends that I hung out with and did things and did not really look at the overall picture nationwide, what was going on. It really was not until I went to Kent that I really began to be exposed to anything going on outside our little community. You know, we had one, one TV in the house. And basically, you know, we were watching Bonanza and Disney show. I do think my parents watched the nightly news. But, you know, I certainly was not involved in that. So, I did not really kind of piece together any kind of an overall picture what my generation was doing or, you know, I obviously had some brushes with the Vietnam War, especially. And then this was really more, maybe my senior year or my freshman at Kent, when they had the draft. I fortunately got a high number. And so, I really did not have to worry about the draft, but I did have some high school friends, especially those that I hung around with, who got low numbers, and one, one, one went into the Navy, and the other one enlisted in the Air Force. So, they-they were basically, you know, avoiding having to go into the army.
SM: 09:32
Right. Now, why did you pick Kent State?
JC: 09:39
Well, I was vacillating my senior years to what I wanted to major in and I started it started to gel that I thought architecture might be the right direction for me and at one time thought about going into the medical field to become a doctor. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought that I was a little more of a creative person. And so I thought architecture would be the better route for me. And my dad worked, it was like, probably the only, it was the major employer in the area, General Electric. And he had a coworker, a friend of his, whose son went to Kent, and majored in architecture. And so, my dad said, "Hey, look, my, you know, my son, John is thinking about going into architecture and I know your son is going to Kent, would you mind if he came over and just kind of looked at what, what your son is doing at Kent?" And so we went over and visited them. And of course, he pulls out these presentation boards that he had done, and some models that he had done. And I was kind of blown away. I said, this is really cool stuff. And, you know, I loved what he what he was doing and what he was involved in. So, we-we decided to go out in the spring and check out Kent. I had looked at Syracuse University, which is the you know, it still is- it was pretty expensive, even for somebody who lived in the state. And Syracuse is a little more of an urban campus. And when I went to Kent, and we went for a weekend because a little bit of a drive, and they had an orientation, where they gave you a tour of the campus. And I just remember feeling really comfortable. And you know, on, I liked the size of the campus, I liked the layout of the campus, it was more spread out and just had a really nice feel for it, and that was really what would push me to go there.
SM: 12:15
Now I know that I, I am from Ithaca and Cornell has a really good architecture program too. I believe their program was five years. Was your- a five year program? Or was it four?
JC: 12:26
Yeah. It actually was, it was a five year program.
SM: 12:29
Yep. And I thought that is pretty common now. And that is a pretty, it is a really good program to get into. It is sometimes very difficult to get into too.
JC: 12:39
Yeah, I think we thought maybe Cornell might be out of reach for me. I mean, I was a fairly good school student in high school, but I was not outstanding.
SM: 12:49
Now, when you went to Kent State University, what was your first impression? So that first year you were there, what kind of an environment was it? Was it one with a lot of activism going on? Was there good relationships between the community and the students? What kind of a feel did you get beyond the classroom?
JC: 13:10
Well, the interesting thing is, I kind of felt this almost tidal wave of change, which I felt happened the year that I was a freshman. Because when I when I first arrived on campus as a freshman, you know, people were still kind of dressing up to go to classes. You saw boys with ties and women in, you know, skirts and dresses, and we have RAS. And they had like a kind of a freshman orientation. And we were supposed to wear these goofy hats called thinks. So that upperclassmen could pick on you, you know, it was kind of still that kind of (19)60s type of mentality. That kind of began to fall by the wayside in the winter. And by spring, I mean, really, everyone was dressing extremely casually, jeanies, hair was getting longer, you know, just really saw a tremendous change in environment there. I guess the other point I was going to make was because architecture is a little bit of a difficult program, you-you really needed to have study groups to kind of help each other along with homework and classroom assignments. So, you know, I immediately began to bond with about maybe five or six freshmen architectural students. You know, we would study together, we worked together on projects. So, you know, the friendships really began to form fairly early. And that was kind of specific to my architectural programs. I guess I like to say, you know, I probably missed some great times down on Water Street and the bars that first year-
SM: 15:21
Right.
JC: 15:22
-because I was I was a little bit too concerned about my grades and everything.
SM: 15:28
Right.
JC: 15:30
But and I suppose I was not a drinking age yet then either. But either way, I did not really discover much of the downtown life until spring.
SM: 15:42
Yeah, what year you begin there?
JC: 15:48
(19)69.
SM: 15:49
(19)69. You know (19)69, you know, I was just, I just had an interview with another person and who was there at that time. And the political environment of about Kent State from afar was that it, you know, Ohio University and Ohio State, were the two that were more very activist oriented with a lot of protests and everything, did not realize how many protests took place at Kent State. And-and how big these Students for Democratic Society was on the campus, who were against the war. Did you see any friction between the students at that time between those who were against the war and those who were for it?
JC: 16:35
I do remember. I mean, let us, let us fast forward to the spring. I do not really do not really remember any of that in the fall or the winter. I am not saying that it was not there. But I do not remember seeing any of it. And then in the spring, there were some more outdoor rallies. And I, you know, I began to see these anti-war protests. And the school of architecture was located on the top floor of Taylor Hall. So we oversaw the campus, so when there were rallies and you know, things going on-on the commons, we would overlook that, and we would see it, and we would hear it. But I will be honest with you, I did not really attend any, any of those rallies, but I was witness to them. I did not really see any clashes between regular students and activists, but I did witness the spring rallies that were going on-on campus.
SM: 17:59
Did you get a feeling there at the time that there was a tension within the community toward the students? That is the city, the city of Kent, the people who were not students?
JC: 18:12
Well, I have to be careful here. Because, you know, obviously, you know, we read it, you know, we have read things and you know, you know, I have read a lot about how the townspeople resented the students, and were concerned about the students. But for me, personally, I did not spend a lot of time in town. Like I said, I did not really discover Water Street or Main Street until the spring. So, I cannot honestly say that, that that myself personally, that I saw any of that.
SM: 18:52
Leading up to that, the terrible tragedy that happened on the fourth of May (19)70. Can you describe that day? What, how that opened? What you were doing in the day itself? And then sadly, how you were in the line of fire?
JC: 19:12
Sure. I do not know if you want me to or not, but I, I can kind of go over the entire weekend, if you want.
SM: 19:21
I would like that because I have got five interviews I have done now. And I- what is important, John, is I just want people who are not alive today. These are going to be for research and scholarships for students, faculty and national scholars down the road. And in Kent, what happened at Kent State is the, one of the historic events of the (19)60s, no question, in fact, in American history, in my view. If you want to go over what happened maybe from April 30th when Nixon announced his speech or about going into Cambodia?
JC: 19:56
Yeah, what I was going to do is pick it up from Friday. Because, you know, things really changed for me starting on-on Friday. I was once again haven't really [audio cuts].
SM: 20:23
Still there? Whoops. Okay, we are all set, we are back.
JC: 20:48
I was talking about Sunday. And there was really kind of a real tension that you could feel between the students and the military on campus. When you walked around campus, there was military presence everywhere. And I think for a lot of the antiwar students and the activists, you know, this, this was a really upsetting thing, to-to have this strong military presence on their campus. And so everywhere you went on Sunday, there were National Guard, at campus buildings, parking lots, driving up and down the streets. It was really kind of a little disconcerting. And right around dusk, there was a curfew that went into place. And basically, what they told us was that no groups of students more than three could be out at any one time. And we typically ate dinner a little bit later, because we would be doing work or doing some stuff up at Taylor Hall. So when we were done with dinner, and trying to walk back across an open area to our dorms, they were threatening to tear gas us because there was like three or four of us. So we had to break into smaller groups. And I know there were some groups that came out at the dining hall later, after we did, that were tear gassed. And probably around eight in the evening or so there was an attempt to have some sort of a rally on Commons. Helicopters appeared, with search lights and bull horns. And the group was tear gassed. The tear gas drifted back into our dorm. And so, we-we ran out of the building, because we could not breathe. And the Guardsmen who were deployed outside, forced us back into the building. They did not want to hear any of our excuses. They said there was a curfew, we had to stay in the building. So, we finally went into the study lounges and kind of hunkered down, because they were not as bad with the tear gas. And we really did not get much sleep that night. There were helicopters hovering all over campus that were loud. They were kind of harassing anyone that was outside. So you know, it was a pretty tense night. And it was a long night. Like I said, we did not get much sleep. So then, Monday, classes were still in session. So that Monday morning, I went to, I believe it was my English class. And the-the building entrance had soldiers on each side of it. And our professor said, you know, that there was probably going to be a rally at noon and it was our decision whether we should attend it or not. And pretty much everywhere I went that morning, the talk was that there was going to be a noon rally. So when I was done with my English class, and I decided that I would borrow my roommate's camera, he had a little instamatic. I enjoyed photography but unfortunately at that point, I did not have my camera with me. So, I borrowed his camera and thought, well, I am going to go to the rally more out of curiosity to see what was going to happen, than really, to support any cause one way or the other. And so I did go to the, to the rally, I kind of stood off to the side. I watched it as it grew in size, I really felt there was kind of a hardcore group that were right around the victory bale of maybe 100 to 200 students that were really actively protesting. And there were probably a couple 1000 there around that were just kind of watching similar to what I was doing. Some of them were going to their classes. The, the commons area is kind of in the middle of campus. And it is really a crossroads for anyone going to class. So it is a natural point where people are going to be walking through to get to maybe the union or for-for lunch, or to, to go to class. So, you know, I saw a Jeep come out with a bullhorn. And they ordered everyone to disperse and said, this was an illegal rally, and you were ordered to disperse, which pretty much everyone ignored. And so they, there was a line of guardsmen that were down, kind of almost guarding the burned out ROTC building, which was at the end of the commons, kind of sitting there in ruins. And so they, they started to move out, the guardsmen moved out on file. There were two companies. I could be incorrect, I believe it was A and C. And one, one went to the right of Taylor Hall, and one went to the left of Taylor Hall. And they started to push students back with tear gas, firing tear gas into the students. Some of the students were able to pick up the tear gas and throw it back at the guardsmen. So you can kind of see this back and forth between the guardsmen and the students with the tear gas. I did take some pictures of the guardsmen as they walked up. I was to, as you face Taylor Hall, I was more towards the left hand side, near the pagoda. And the National Guards kind of walked by me, I was fairly close to them. You know, I felt these are professional soldiers. And I did not feel threatened by them. And I felt as long as I behaved myself and did not do anything, that there should be no issue with them. And so they did go by me. And I took some pictures as I went by. They went down to, there was a parking lot in front of Taylor Hall. And they ended up in a practice football field, which is no longer there. And at the soccer or football field, well, I do not remember exactly, there were some chain-link fencing on two sides of it. So they were kind of hemmed in just a little bit, and they kind of regrouped there and kind of huddled together. And the students, by that time had been pushed down into the parking lot. And there was a small group that were still pretty active. Kind of yelling obscenities at them. There might have been a few rocks that were thrown, but at the distance they were, they certainly were not reaching the guardsmen. At one point the guardsmen did kneel and aim their weapons into the crowd. And did not really discourage any of the protesters. And then at some point, the-the guardsmen kind of re huddled together, it felt like they were discussing what they were going to do next. And then they reformed into a line and begin to walk back up this hill towards the pagoda. And to what I was thinking, that they were going to go back over, they called it Blanket Hill, and to the, to the commons. And there, there was kind of a feeling, I think, at that point, that things were wrapping up. And I do know that some of the students were beginning to leave, heading to their classes. And I was going to go into Taylor Hall, I had a design class that afternoon, and I was going to go in and get ready for my class. And so, I walked up to the-the entrance of Taylor Hall, and there is a metal sculpture there. And I was standing next to the metal sculpture, and I thought to myself, I am going to get one more picture of them right before they get over the crest of the hill. So I stood there. And I was with this instamatic and I had to rewind the camera so that I could get to the next shot. So, I was rewinding, you know, the camera, getting it ready to take a shot and they-they reached the crest of the hill, and I was getting the camera ready to raise up. And suddenly, they just turned and fired. And without any warning. And it just seemed like there was this instantaneous movement in unison, where the soldiers all turned and fired. And I believe they were firing more towards the parking lot. But I happened to be in their line of fire. And I do kind of, before I was hit, I do kind of remember, Joe Lewis was in front of me, maybe by 50 or 75 feet, not a lot. I do not think there was anyone else. I do not think there was anyone else in front of us other than the two of us, because really, the bulk of the people were either off to the side or behind me. And I do remember thinking, he was giving them the finger, you know, he was, he was flicking them off. And seconds later, they-they fired, and I got hit in the chest. I like to say, it is like, I felt like I got hit in the chest with a sledge hammer. I dropped to the ground. And I really do not have any more recollection of what happened at that point. I do remember kind of coming to in the hospital. And they were, they were doing triage at the time. And I was out in a corridor, and I was in a fair amount of pain. And my concern was that I would be forgotten. And I remember kind of panicking a little bit. Because, do they know that I am out here in this corridor? And finally, a couple of nurses came out and the first thing they wanted to know was, "Do you have your parents phone number, do you have some contact numbers?" And it is like, "Why aren't you helping me?" and they are, you know, they are, "Well, you are going to go in shortly to see the doctor but we need to be able to contact your parents." So I remember reeling off a bunch of phone numbers, home phone number and office phone numbers, and they finally wheeled me in to see a doctor. And I think I almost immediately went into surgery. And the next thing I remember, was in a hospital room with Dean Taylor and Joe Lewis as, as roommates.
SM: 35:18
Wow-wow. I know, the picture of, on Life magazine is a picture of you, I believe with-
JC: 35:27
[inaudible]
SM: 35:27
-students around you. And I had that magazine along with the one from, I think, Newsweek, hanging in my office for many years. I was reading about that particular picture. And it is my understanding that students were in a circle around you were kind of protecting you. And they were holding hands. So no further harm could come to you.
JC: 35:54
Yeah, and I- the interesting thing is, like I said, I do not have any recollection after the point that I was shot. And I was not aware of that. And Howard Ruffner took that picture. I am sure you are aware of that. And about two years ago, Howard Ruffner was in Kent to promote a new book that he had written. And basically, it was a series of photographs taken on that day. And it was right before the 50th anniversary, before COVID had hit. And so I decided, well, this is be a great opportunity to see Howard because he lives in California. And so, we certainly do not have many opportunities to get together. So I went up to Kent, and we had a reunion of sorts. Unfortunately, the media kind of made a little bigger deal about it than I thought they would, but they did. But he was showing me pictures. And he had taken a picture of the students circled around me holding hands. And that really hit me, that was a very impactful picture. And in some respects, I liked that picture better than the one he took of me. Because it really shows, you know, at that point, they did not know if the guards were coming back or not. And they were putting their life kind of on the line to protect me. And not only that, but the students that were working on me, Joe Kolum, and some others, you know, really saved, I think, saved my life. So I am really in a debt of gratitude to them for doing that.
SM: 38:10
I know, when I interviewed Joe, he said that when he was put in the ambulance, you were right by his side, in the same ambulance.
JC: 38:20
That very well could be I like I said, I just do not remember the ambulance ride at all.
SM: 38:27
Now, how long did it take you to recuperate from this serious injury so that you can get back to school?
JC: 38:33
I was in hospital for about two weeks. I was intensive care for about a week. There was, there was some concern early on about infection and some other issues. Because of the extent of the injuries, but you know, you are young. I was 19 I think at the time, 18 or 19. So I did, was able to bounce back and after two weeks what they kind of quietly got me to the airport. I have to tell you this. I guess it is an amusing story. But when-when I was at Kent as a freshman, I bought a car there and it was an old car, Chrysler, 1957 Chrysler. It was like a limousine this thing was a boat. And after I was shot, my parents flew out and they were able to use my car and because it had Ohio plates on it, pretty much could go anywhere and not be bothered by the press because they did not know who they were. And I flew home two weeks later, and they drove my car home with all my belongings. And when they got to the driveway of our house, the power steering pump caught on fire. And the car, there were flames coming out of the hood. And they flung open the door and threw all my belongings on the lawn. And fortunately, the car did not. It was just a small fire and they were able to put it out. But my parents loved to tell the story how every belonging I had was thrown out on the front lawn.
SM: 40:48
Wow. And now, of course, classes are canceled. And you did you start back in the fall?
JC: 40:57
Yeah, I flew home. I flew home about two weeks later, and recuperated that summer. And the professors were really great. And they did it for everybody, not just me. They sent us homework assignments, they sent us classwork, and we are able to complete our semester. You know, this is before the internet and emails, everything was done through the mail, you know, US Postal Service. And they would mail me assignments, and they and they did not cut me any slack either. And I did the work and got grades for it. So I was able to complete my freshman year. And then the following fall, you know, I went back to Kent.
SM: 41:59
Now, and you got your degree in five years.
JC: 42:01
I did.
SM: 42:02
And, and well, how has your career been? Yeah, you, and how did you end up in Pittsburgh?
JC: 42:12
Well, my-my wife was originally from Pittsburgh. And when we graduated from Kent. It was (19)74. And the economy was not doing really good right then. And jobs are really scarce. And trying to go back to upstate New York, there was just absolutely nothing there. Like I said, I was in more of a rural community, small town. And really, for architecture, you need a bigger, you [inaudible] you need more of an urban town. So, we had looked at Cleveland, that was one of our thoughts. And we also looked at Pittsburgh, and I liked the lay of the land of Pittsburgh, it was a little more mountainous, and had the hills and the rivers. And it reminded me a little more of upstate New York. So we ended, up I got a job in Pittsburgh, it was touch and go. If I had not gotten a job in Pittsburgh, we probably would have ended up in Cleveland. But I did get a job in Pittsburgh and that is where we, where we ended up.
SM: 43:37
Now, after the, what I have also noticed about coming to the remembrance events over the past month, not the last two years, obviously. But last, over the 50 year period, is the camaraderie between those who are wounded and the families of those who died. I know there are a lot of issues after the, after the initially because I know there was a, there was a trial for some of the activists and so forth. But how did who was responsible for the camaraderie between the nine that were wounded and the families of the four that were killed?
JC: 44:15
Well, I think a lot of that had to do with the May Force Task Group. And, you know, I will be honest with you, I was starting out in my career and work was tough. And I really did not attend the trials the way that I should have. And I had a family that I had to support. And so, I could not really take the time to go up to Cleveland for the civil trials. So I was really only there when-when I had to be and so I really did not bond with the wounded students and the families until a few, quite a few years later, maybe 10 years later. My, believe it or not, my son was born on May 4th.
SM: 45:13
Oh my God.
JC: 45:13
And obviously that was not planned. And it just happened that way. And so I have a pretty strong faith. And I felt like God was telling me something, you know, you cannot, you cannot bury this, you cannot pretend it did not happen to you. You cannot put it behind you. It is something that you need to confront. So I started going back to the commemorations and the May Fourth Task Force would put on a breakfast on those mornings on May 4th, and at those breakfasts would be the other wounded students and family members. And so it just began a process of getting to know people casually at first, just sitting there and having breakfast with them, and spending a little time with their family and bringing my family and Tom Grace and Alan Canfora reached out to me. And both Tom and Alan are big baseball fans. And so I guess in Buffalo, where Thomas from, the Pittsburgh Pirates had a [inaudible] team. So we did, both Tom and Alan came down one time. And we went to a pirate’s game. [crosstalk] So yeah, we had a great time. And so, you know, it just began a process of getting to know one another. And I have tried, in the last four or five years since I have been retired, to try to reach out and get to know, some of the wounded students a little better. About two years, two and a half years ago, my wife and I were out. And we did a Northwest trip to Seattle and Portland. And Joe lives out there. And so we made a point to swing by and have lunch with Joe and his wife, got to see where Joe lived. And, you know, that was meaningful for us. And Tom and I have gotten together several times. And so it is just a matter of and-and Dean Kahler. We, about a year ago, Joe was traveling through Kent, he was actually moving one of his sons back to Oregon. And the three of us got together at a local, I cannot even remember if it was a Ponderosa or what it was, but it was a lunch place. And, you know, we commented on it was, you know, these were the three of us that were hospital roommates. And it was kind of nice to get together without the, all the noise and attention that May 4th typically brings. So the times that we get together when we can kind of be out of the limelight, and just be ourselves-
SM: 48:57
Yep.
JC: 48:57
-I think has gone a long way to establishing some, hopefully some long-term relationships.
SM: 49:08
And that is very important, that whole issue of healing. One of the questions I have asked him a lot of the people that I have interviewed are dealing with the Vietnam War, and healing from that war and the divisions it caused in America. And, and Jan Scruggs wrote a book and I think it can apply to any kind of a tragedy, To Heal a Nation. And the basic premise behind the building of the Wall in (19)82 was to heal the families who lost loved ones in that war and not to make it a political statement, but to remember those who lost their lives, and so that they will never be forgotten number one, and then also provide healing within the family and the families of the veterans, but also to pay respects to those who fought in that war and came home and were treated so poorly by America upon their return. So, the one thing about healing, do you use have do you, it is a word that sometimes is overused. But do you have still any issues with healing from this tragedy?
JC: 50:17
What I have found is going up to the commemorations I, I used to always kind of hang in the back and you know, kind of be anonymous in and not really want to, you know, participate. But the last five years or so I have kind of taken on the tact that, you know, we, you know, our numbers are dwindling, and we need to respect those that were slain on that day, and the other wounded students, and, you know, remember them. And walking around the parking lot during commemoration right before them, where the markers are where the students were slain. People have come to me that maybe they recognize me, or, you know, they might just say, "Were you there?" You know, obviously, I am in my 70s, I look the part, you know, "Where were you on May 4th?" And when I share my story, I find that there are a lot of people out there that were there that day that are hurting, and they, they need to share their story. And so, I find that many a time when I am out there talking to people who were there, they were filling in the blanks for me, when I was unconscious, and when I did not witness what they witnessed the hurt and the pain, that they went through seeing the carnage and seeing the bodies on the ground. You know, I was lucky in that I did not witness that. But they did. And I think it becomes a healing process for all of us, when we talk about it together, and we have these shared experiences of being there. Each of our stories are different. And yet they are kind of weaved together to make this one large picture.
SM: 52:45
Very-very well said, I know that Alan, before he passed, a couple of years before he passed, he was adamant and brought in some great programs. He was always a leader, he was always he was always lead taking the lead. And you know, and making sure because it was all about the four that died and those that are wounded. He was all about them. And, and he did a tremendous job. But he but he and several others wanted to find out who, who gave the order to do the shooting. This is the whole issue. And they brought that man there that they said they think they had him on tape. And I know that Alan was up there in the front. And there were a couple other guests there too, who were, you know, supporting that concept that whoever gave the order. And-and so do you still feel that we need to find out who did it? I mean, we know that who that they were shot my guardsmen, but who gave the order?
JC: 53:42
Well, I think there is some frustration out there. Because people are looking for justice. And they certainly do not feel that justice was served here. And yeah, it would be great to find out who gave the order. And it would also be great to maybe hold some of the guardsmen that shot indiscriminately into the crowd to make them accountable. But there is so much time that is gone by, you know, we are beyond the 50-year mark, that I am just [inaudible] that that we are never really going to get to the bottom of that. And it is just going to be something that is always going to be a question mark out there. And unfortunately, I do not think there is ever going to be an answer. You know, everyone kind of has this hope that there will be some guardsmen on their deathbed that is going to share the some story about what actually happened. But short of that, I do not think we are going to really get to the bottom of what actually happened.
SM: 54:59
You were there. And you know some of the things that took place, [inaudible] you read the student newspapers, at Kent state the following year when school started again. When you look at the whole that whole period from the 30th of April till when Nixon gave the speech at 9pm, until the killings and the wounding, on the fourth. Who- is that, that is, that is part of our history, is-is an important part of our history. When you look at the (19)60s, what other big major events affected your life? Even before Kent State, and I say, when you look at the, when boomers were young, there was one word that kept coming up over and over again, in my mind, assassination, assassination, bullets, killing. What is the say about our democracy? We lose a President of the United States in (19)63. That is when [crosstalk]. Yes, go ahead.
JC: 56:04
Yeah. I think that everyone kind of remembers John F. Kennedy's assassination. I think I was a little too young to totally understand the implications of what had happened, but I do remember my parents being a little fearful, and that the TV was on constantly with the funeral, and all the other proceedings going on.
SM: 56:36
And then only-
JC: 56:39
The only other highlight, and I am sorry, go ahead Stephen.
SM: 56:42
I was just going to say that the course five years later, his brother gets assassinated, as well as the Martin Luther King. And when-
JC: 56:49
Yep.
SM: 56:49
-when you look at the Jackson State issue, which is important because Kent State students in the group have done a tremendous job of making sure that those who lost their lives there at Jackson State 10 days later are, there was camaraderie between them and the students at Kent State. I admire them so much for this, they are, thatis a lesson for America to reach out because they also had a tragedy. But to lose some-
JC: 57:17
Yep.
SM: 57:17
-it seemed like the people that our age when the boomers seem to see even when you talk about Jackson State, that was in Jackson, Mississippi and Medgar Evers was killed there in that same year. So it is,-
JC: 57:35
Yes.
SM: 57:35
-it is, so it is like, we grew up with assassinations, one assassination after another killings, and we are still having a lot of issues. But the tragedy, you know, it is like, I have learned one thing, and Alan said, you know, these were murders at Kent State, quit saying it is a tragedy at Kent State. They were murderers.
JC: 57:55 Yeah, yeah. It took me a while to say that I felt that was maybe would turn people off when you discuss it. But Alan is absolutely right. What happened there was, when you think about Dean Kahler, who was shot in the back while laying on the ground, and Sandy Scheuer and others that [inaudible], were just going to class. It was just an indiscriminate shooting. And they are certainly, their lives were not in any kind of danger. And you know, it was just wanton or wanton shooting that which really cannot be explained.
SM: 58:46
One of the things that I, I do a lot of reading, and I have heard this for years, and it is in so many books. I know, Tom Grace, I talked to him about this too, is that why Kent State? You know, of all the universities in America with all the major protests, you know, and of course, Ohio State had ma- I went to Ohio State to grad school. So Ohio State had major protests at the very same time, but no one died. And in Ohio University, where I worked in my first job, they were always considered the most liberal campus in Ohio. And they were actually purging students when I was there. Because they were up to 18,000. Then then they were down 1000s. That is why the branch campuses were helping their enrollment, but [crosstalk] but they could they get kind of tired. I think I said this to Alan, when he came to West Chester University, [inaudible] there twice. I am getting tired of hearing this in history books. Why at Kent State, because why not? It is worth I think all the major crises happened at state universities where there seemed to have been tragedies. So-so, you know.
JC: 1:00:03
Well, I think I think that if you look at the governor Rhodes, and you look at the burning of the ROTC building, and the mayor of Kent, Mayor Satrom, calling in the National Guard probably prematurely. And, you know, it was just all these things kind of led up to this and the rhetoric that was said, by the governor prior to the weekend. You know, I just think that all of this kind of, unfortunately, fell in place for-for something like that to happen.
SM: 1:00:46
I agree. It is the word that we use nowadays is the perfect storm, seemed like the perfect storm.
JC: 1:00:54
Yes.
SM: 1:00:54
Everything came in. And I, as I was saying to Tom when I interviewed him, you know, I my very first book that I read on Kent State was James Michener's book- it is full of misinformation, it has got, it is incorrect, it is not a very good book. But one thing- [crosstalk] Huh? Is that like, Kent is the hotbed of SDS? Yes. Yeah. And also, he talked about President White. And he is a culprit in this in my view, because I spent my career in higher education, and you have to have a strong president. Yet, not, every university and, and the person, and everything stops, anything that happens on your campus, you have to take responsibility for it, you are in charge. And Tom, Tom was great in terms of explaining what he has historically done in the past of not being there at the time when he needed to be there. And I blame a lot of it on him. If he if he had come-
JC: 1:01:56
I am just [inaudible], I am incredulous that he would be out to lunch, off campus, when everyone knew that there was going to be a rally that-
SM: 1:02:08
Yes.
JC: 1:02:09
-day at noon. He had to have known.
SM: 1:02:11
He did, I he should have gotten back. He was away. But he could have gotten back, he certainly could have gotten back before May 4th. And because everything was happening.
JC: 1:02:21
You know, I have a feeling if that had been Dr. Beverly Warren, she would have been out there on campus, next to the guards. You know, talking to them, talking to the leaders, the guardsmen, he should have been out there, you know, talking to them and making sure that things did not get out of control.
SM: 1:02:48
Yep.
JC: 1:02:48
And with him gone. It just gave the military carte blanche to do whatever they wanted.
SM: 1:02:56
Yeah, so it is a kind of a combination of everything coming to a head and unfortunately, sadly, it cost lives.
JC: 1:03:02
Yeah.
SM: 1:03:03
You know, do you have one May 4th comes every year, now I am thinking of involving the remembrance, but even those years that you were not going to the events, does that May four- obviously you have a child born on May 4th. But does that, you feel like it is like April 27, that you are only four, seven days away from that, that that day that help- really had an impact on your life?
JC: 1:03:32
Well, it is something that I now that I am retired and I can dwell more on it, yes, I do think about it, anticipate what the significance of the day means and trying to make plans to be there. And, you know, if there is interviews or whatever, to make myself available for that. I think that is the other thing I am trying to do on retirement is there are some Ohio teachers who were teaching May 4th in the classroom to their students, and I have tried to make myself available to talk to these people. And so yes, when May 4th comes around now, you know, there-there is some anticipation towards it and-and what can be done to keep-keep the memory alive. There were times after I was first married and were struggling at work that may 4th came and went and I think about it over lunch hour and that, you know, that might be might be the extent of it. That is it certainly has changed here in the latter years.
SM: 1:04:58
Have you had any flashbacks from that day?
JC: 1:05:05
No, I cannot say that I have. I have always, like I said, I think, in a weird way, I was fortunate in that I do not recall what happened to me after I was hit. But no, I cannot say that I have any unpleasant flashbacks to it. Sometimes, you know, a lot of people ask me, you know, you were you were shot in front of the metal sculpture, and does it bother you when you walk by that place you were shot? And I guess my answer to that is that, you know, when I went back to camp- I would walk by that spot every day going into Taylor Hall. And if anything, it inspired me saying, Look, you, you were given a second chance here at life, and you need to take advantage of it.
SM: 1:06:00
Yep, very positive attitude, that is excellent. Yeah, I have taken pictures of that sculpture, and it has got a hole through it and one spot. So you can see how powerful those bullets were.
JC: 1:06:13
Yeah. Imagine that hitting a person.
SM: 1:06:16
Yes, I know. The other thing I wanted to mention, because of the I am talking really about the boomer generation of which we are a part, and what the (19)60s were all about, is the fact that we lost so many good people, and but there were a lot of positive things too, along with the negatives. Do you, we are, we are reflecting on now what is going on in America today, with all the great divisions we are having, it is very- I do not think I have ever lived at a time like this. The pandemic does not happen either. But it is everything else has been going on in the news. But when you come here-
JC: 1:06:55
Well, I think social media has a lot to do with that.
SM: 1:07:02
In terms of what they are what they are-?
JC: 1:07:06
Why we are so why we are so divisive, versus maybe 20 years ago. I mean, obviously, every generation, you know, we had the-the war protests and kind of a culture counterculture movement, where there was, you know, our parents, I think we were trying to comprehend what the heck we were doing. But yeah, this seems to be much more, I think with social media, you can kind of anonymously sit back and be very what is the right word, insensitive or cruel. And when you are not talking to somebody face to face. You can, you can say a lot more damaging words, and not feel guilty about it. And yeah, it is, it is very frustrating to see the misinformation. And the how things are taken out of context constantly on social media.
SM: 1:08:21
How, there-there came a time with your children, when they probably put two and two together and "Dad, why were you shot, Daddy? Why were you shot?" Trying to explain to them and how do you explain that to a child? As they, and as they get older, what at what juncture did you tell the whole story? Because, you know, they are, when they are young, they do not kind of grasp things.
JC: 1:08:47
Yeah, I do not think we really talked too much about it until they were maybe in junior high, or you know, about that age. And I think the other thing that kind of came into play was probably like, whenever there was like a pivotal anniversary, like the 10th or the 15th or 20th anniversary, the press tends to come out of the woodwork and want to interview you and they want to do newspaper articles and they want to do you know, maybe a little local TV segment or something. So obviously that became apparent to them. So, you know, we did explain to them what had happened. And, you know, it is interesting, we were going through my daughter's paperwork from you know, my wife saves everything she will not, you know, if it is kid related, she keeps it. And there was a paper she had done probably in eighth or ninth grade for English class about the Kent State shootings. And I was, I was pretty impressed with her insight and being able to describe the events and what-what had happened, you know, without, you know, from her point of view from a younger generation not being there.
SM: 1:10:25
That is excellent. I only got a couple more questions here. One of them is the, what- two, it is a two-part question. What are the major lessons to be learned from the killings at Kent State and Jackson State? And what are the, and the second part of the question is, what are the lessons from the (19)60s and (19)70s in your opinion? As we pass on, we are now we are talking we are now three generation starting of the third generation beyond boomer that are being born today.
JC: 1:11:05
Well, there is lessons to be learned. I guess the question is, are we really learning anything from it? You can draw some parallels, I think, when you go back to May 4th, and the rhetoric and I am talking about Governor Rhodes' inflammatory talk about students being worse than Brownshirts. And, you know, I think, that might have been in reference to communists, communist, I do not remember, but-but anyway, you know, this kind of inflammatory discourse, which then leads to violence. And I still, unfortunately, think we are seeing it today when people say things, to inflame groups, and then violence occurs. And so there is some frustration, because you wonder, are we really learning from these lessons? Are we learning that you know, gun violence, escalates, when followed by angry words and discourse? And so, the lessons, you know, are, I suppose, that you know, we need to pause and look at where we are going with some of this, and, and try to de-escalate situations, versus escalate them. And we are even seeing it today where rather than a calm voice, and trying to resolve a tense situation, things get ramped up, and then we have an unfortunate shooting, and it can even be police that are doing the shooting, because rather than try to de-escalate a situation, things are getting ramped. So, you know, unfortunately, I see some parallels to what is happening today, to what-what happened back there. Your second part about the (19)60s and (19)70s. I think that there was an attempt by our generation to try to break from the norm, and create a more loving and caring society, one that that takes care of its own. Unfortunately, I think that has not happened. And it is kind of fallen on deaf ears. And we have a lot of social issues today that if we showed more compassion and more understanding, I think we could start to resolve some of the- these issues, but instead, everything has become political. And it just seems like any issue today, even when we are talking about science, somehow, we end up with two sides to a story. And it baffles me on some of this. Where, where, you know, we are just trying to take care of people, or we are trying to do what is best for the common good and somehow this has to become a political issue, and it truly is sad that we have gotten to that point. So you know, I think we started out in the (19)60s and (19)70s, very idealistic, we were going to change the world. But here we are, you know, 40, 50 years later, and not much has changed.
SM: 1:15:48
[inaudible] I am going to end with this. I am going to ask you to talk to someone who is going to be listening to this 20, 30 and 40 years from now, and this is January 26 2022. If there is any lessons that you yourself can give to the future youth of America, in terms of, based on the experiences of what happened at Kent State and Jackson State, what would that be in terms of advice? And one thing I want to add to this, John, you have already mentioned it, you cannot forget your history, you got to know your history and where we came from.
JC: 1:16:29
Absolutely.
SM: 1:16:29
Yeah, not and I am really worried about, and this has been not just my generation, boomers the generations that followed, their lack of knowledge of history is amazing. I am shocked, I work with young people. They do not know the Vietnam War. I had, we have had people tell me the Vietnam wars before World War Two, how do they get through high school that way? And so, it is the, it is the knowledge of history. But what would your advice be to future generations with respect to this historic event, Kent State and Jackson State?
JC: 1:17:03
Well, I think my, my advice would be, is when you look at history, I remember, in my history classes, it is more than just memorizing dates and times and when-when these things happened, you have to try to put yourself in the time and in the place, and what people's mindsets were, I think it is more important to understand the events leading up to what happened at May 4th, versus, you know, trying to remember that it happened in the (19)70s, or whatever. And if you are a college student, and you are listening to this, try to imagine yourself being on a college campus, and being confronted with the military, with guns and halftracks, and helicopters, with them preventing you from saying what you are, what you want to say. So your freedom is being challenged by powers to be in and by your political system. And you need to just visualize what would you do as a student, if you were confronted with this, and this is what we had to face. That we did not ask for the military to be on campus. We felt that we had a right to be on our campus, our campus was open, and to be assaulted in the way that that crowd was, to be shot indiscriminately and then listen to the hatred and the vitriol that came out of the country as they came out of the state, towards the students who had done nothing more than congregate on campus, to present their political views, and think about how you would react if you were confronted in that in that type of situation.
SM: 1:19:50
Beautifully said. Beautifully said. John, on that note, I want to end the interview. And I want to say thank you very much for taking part are in this. I will say this, I hope to meet you. I am going to be at Kent State on the fourth. I will be there probably the second through the fourth. I love the walk that walk.
JC: 1:20:11
Yeah, I am going to, even if you know that from what I am understanding, there is some uncertainty as to whether they are going to do something because of COVID.
SM: 1:20:21
Right.
JC: 1:20:21
And but I have missed two years there. And I think I am going to be there no matter what, even if it is just unofficial.
SM: 1:20:31
Same here. So, I look, we will be in touch and I am, I am going to turn this off. Thank you very much. Do not leave me yet.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John Cleary
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2022-01-27
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie
Biographical Text
<span>Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie, a native of Madison, Wisconsin, </span><span>joined the American Red Cross after graduating from college and served as part of the Supplemental </span><span>Recreational Activity Overseas Program (SRAO) in Vietnam, circa 1967-70. She served in Nha Trang, Da Nang, and Phan Rang. </span><span> After Vietnam, Christie attended graduate school and received a Ph.D. from Walden University, and became a college professor at several schools including teaching Communication at Western Connecticut State University and Manhattanville College. She recently wrote her first book, Women of City Point: 1864-1865. <br /><br /></span>
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1:23:21
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Military women; Vietnam War; Red Cross; Volunteering; Donut Dollies; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Vietnam; Graduate school; College education.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Jeanne Sam Bokina Christie
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 27 January 2022
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:00
You kidding, Philadelphia's cold but not this cold [laughs].
JSBC: 00:03
And we are expecting two feet of snow on Saturday.
SM: 00:06
Oh, wow. Well that is Wisconsin, anyway. But just when you went to Vietnam. Okay, first off, the one question I want to ask, which I have been asking everyone is in at any time with your family, did you have any kind of a generation gap on these issues? You had, obviously, you had the support of your parents to go to Vietnam. But was there any gap at all on discussions of for or against the war?
JSBC: 00:32
Not really. I have two brothers and an older sister, my older sister was, you know, engaged and getting married and doing the woman things at that point, the two boys were still coming up through high school, they were 10 years and 12 years younger than I was. So, you know, it is like, that is my older sister type stuff. No, there was no real discussion that I remember. There may have been some conversation and, but nothing that stands out in my mind. You know, they pretty much, mom and dad said you can go, go type thing. And that cut the feeling they had. The boys were always curious. I did send home, my, you know, like poncho liners and my uniforms and things like that to them. And they played with them. So they were a lot younger at that point. And, you know.
SM: 01:31
When you entered the Red Cross, what was, was there a training period that you had to go through?
JSBC: 01:37
There was a training period, we had to report to Washington for two weeks. And we had to have our uniforms, we had to have our navy blue raincoats, we had to have our black handbags, we had to have our black loafers. We had, you know, a list of things that we had to have, and our foot lockers. And I had talked to a gal in Milwaukee who had come back from Vietnam. And she was telling me all sorts of stories. And it was just like, "I really want to do this, I really want to go." So, we had a list of things that we had to have before we went to Washington, when we got to Washington, we were put up in a hotel, I do not remember the name of the hotel at this point. And the very first day I got there, I was wearing my little navy blue suit with my red and white polka dot blouse with a tie [inaudible] on it. And took the elevator upstairs, and there was this woman on the elevator and we are chatting. And I said, "Well, I am going for the training for the Red Cross to go to Vietnam." Turned out to be the director [laughter].
SM: 02:43
Perfect timing.
JSBC: 02:44
Perfect timing, I will never forget that and you know, she just kind of rolled her eyes and laughed. So that was my introduction to the Red Cross, it was a lot about and I did not know this at the time, about rank, organization in the military, things you can do, things you cannot do, things you should do, things you should not do. But a lot of the girls came, and we were all girls at that point still. A lot of them came from military backgrounds. I came from the quasi you know, Fire Department background. So there, there was some structure there, but I did not know the ranks and they did not know the you know, the different services and things like that where others people did. So they went through all that and they taught us you know, "This is, how many stripes? What does that mean? What organization? Is that army? Is that navy? How did you, do you drink? When do you drink? Do you? Are you in uniform? Do you drink? If so how much do you drink?" You know, things like that, that we needed to know when we hit the ground running. It was not a lot about the world at that point. It was about our jobs at that point. So again, there was no emphasis on what was going on in the world right now. It was there was a war you were going to go and this is how you are going to you know get through it. Basically they showed us how to do programs. As an art teacher I you know I could paint anything I draw pictures I can do that. So.
SM: 04:24
They were actually taking, each of these individuals were taking your skills and how they were going to apply to this job. [crosstalk] Excellent.
JSBC: 04:29
They were taking skills. Yep, as well as your willingness to go they would take your skills. I was, you know, everybody loved having an art major come because that made making signs and posters really easy. Yeah, it was it was a lot of that stuff. We got into mischief. We had fun we would go out at night as a group and if we would run into some soldiers of course we would start talking and you know, have a drink with them and whatever. But we-we ran as a pack and nobody got into trouble. So, there were a couple girls that really were questioning whether they want to go after the at the end of the two weeks. And you had the option, you could, you know, you could walk away. But most of us went, and then we had to get our shots at the very end, we had to had a whole list of shots we had to have before we got there. And then they finally gave you the GG shot. And we swore that doctor was just a, you know. But we, you know, they virtually shoot you in the butt and then they say, "See you later," and they put you on an airplane for how many hours and it is like, ohhhhh.
SM: 04:40
Yeah. My gosh.
JSBC: 05:46
But we all survived. And then we flew from there. And we went to the airport, and we flew out to California to Travis Air Force Base. And there were about 13 of us that went to Vietnam on the flight that I was on, all in our little blue uniforms and chitter-chattering away with all these guys that are, you know, giving the 20,000 mile stares because they were returning to Vietnam. And they were you know, "You guys have no idea what you are going to get into," that thing. But we were fine. You know, we were fine. And when we got close to Vietnam, they turned out all the lights, it was dark. And we all kind of looked at each other like "Oh my gosh," flew in in the dark. And when he opened the door, it was just this blast of tropical heat coming in.
SM: 06:40
Yep-yep.
JSBC: 06:41
And everybody started, the Marines or the military started yelling at all the recruits and the guys on board the plane and we kind of looked at each other and said, "What have we gotten into?" They took us off, isolated us, and took us to BOQ where we spent the night. Next morning, we got up and I saw the guards sitting in front with guns. It is like, "Holy moly."
SM: 07:07
A lot different than being home.
JSBC: 07:10
Yeah, a lot different than Wisconsin. So that that was kind of the rude awakening into to Vietnam, and we had to go get uniforms and they were, we were issued boots. You know, pants, shirts, caps, which promptly we put on took a picture, and then pretty much got rid of the gear because we could wear our blue uniforms. And we just had a lot of logistical things that we had to do. Then we have training sessions at the Red Cross headquarters there on how to do a program. I had a friend from Wescott, a friend I did not- I would not know his name at this point. A gentleman from the Red Cross from Wisconsin was there. And the phone rang and they said, “Jeanne, that is for you.” I was still Jeannie. And you know, I am in Vietnam, what the hell is calling me? Happened to be this guy from the Red Cross in Wisconsin, in Madison. He said, "I have a motor scooter, let us go, I will show you around the city." So I got permission. And we went out and drove all over Saigon at that point. I remember going to the zoo, I remember driving in traffic. And here I am on the back of a scooter. And just having a wonderful time. [laughs]
SM: 08:31
My gosh.
JSBC: 08:33
Totally different, you know, the training sessions were supposed to be at. And it was, you know, it was easy. They kind of assessed the group and decided who would go to which unit at that point. And after a couple days, they said "You are going here you are going there. The flight is leaving at, you know, in 20 minutes from the airport, you better get over there." There was no great farewell, a farewell ceremony. And I was sent to NhaTrang for my first duty station.
SM: 09:08
Now did you go, when they broke the 13 up, how many kind of stayed together? Were there four of you, or two of you? Or how many?
JSBC: 09:15
No, we all kind of went different places. I do not remember who went where. I know I was the only one going to NhaTrang. And it just depended on how many, you know, slots were open. And-
SM: 09:30
Oh, okay.
JSBC: 09:32
-where they were, you know, who was rotating out is what mattered. So they had to fill those slots. And I was the only one that went to NhaTrang.
SM: 09:40 Now how long were you there?
JSBC: 09:43
Oof, I am going to say about six months.
SM: 09:48
So, half the time you were in Vietnam, you were there.
JSBC: 09:51
Well, I was 13 months in Vietnam. So. I was there, I came in the end of January. [counting] February March, April, May June. Yeah, about six months, about July, and had a great time, learned a lot. We learned from each other at that point. You know, we were paired up with another girl who had been there obviously a long time or much longer than we had at that point. And, you know, we were shown the ropes. "This is who we, who you need to see, this is who you need to go to, this is where you have to go. This is oh, this unit over here, that is over there. Come on, we can go on to this group over here." So it was, it was a learning experience the whole time. They did, of course, do a little harassment. I had to pull guard duty the very first night. They made me sit on the front steps and our hooch was shared with the nurses, it was on the hospital compound. The separating factor was a roll of barbed wire. And the village homes right on the other side of the barbed wire, and there were kids playing over there.
SM: 09:53
Okay. Wow.
JSBC: 11:02
And the girl said, "Well, you have to do guard duty that night. So, we are going to give you a whistle. And we are going to give you a helmet, and we are going to give you a flashlight, and if you see anything, you have to blow your whistle." They had a horrendous time laughing that night. I was scared to death. [laughter] Somebody comes down the road, what am I do now, type thing. Well, it was, you know, just pure harassment. And it is funny now, but you know, it is, that is how you start. You pay your dues. And I had some really great roommates and I had some really good people to work with. Kathy Wickstrom, who has passed away now, was my roommate for many, many months. She was from Illinois. And oh, gosh, she was just great to me, I mean, she could charm the pants off a snake, you know, she could, she knew how to do it all. And she always wore her hair up on a, in a bun up top. And one of the funnier stories about Kathy is, of course, we are out programming and she walks underneath a branch and it catches on her hair. And she used to stuff it with nylon stockings, to keep it fluffy. And as she is walking away, the stocking is coming out of the back of her hair. [laughter] And the guys are in hysterics laughing and I was laughing and Kathy was like, "What is going on?" But she you know, she was just cool. And she knew the weapons, she knew how to get the guys to talk about the weapons. "Tell me about your, what is this rifle over here? Well, why is it different from that rifle?" She knew the banter that would go with it. So she was a great teacher. And we had a lot of fun on different things. And-and, you know, I cannot say, I am sorry she is gone. But she-she really taught me a lot about how to deal with everything.
SM: 12:58
Now did you, but when you would go out to be with these, the troops, did we did, were you taken in a helicopter or a truck or both? Depending on where you were?
JSBC: 13:10
Yeah, sometimes we would go out in a jeep. Sometimes if it was, you know, close by on the base, we would go out on the Jeep. A lot of times, we had a quarter ton truck and we had two drivers, Richie and gosh, can think the other guy's name right now. And then a lot of times we would fly, we would go by chopper, we would go by the, special forces used to take us out in a different plane. Cannot-cannot even think of the name of the plane now. But it was not unusual to you know, show up at the Special Forces location and they would say, "Okay, today we are going to do here, we are going to go there and, you know, get in that aircraft." So it just depended on-on where we were going. Sometimes we rode the duck, we went to [inaudible] Island, and they had this water duck, you know, ride the duck type thing. And we went out to the islands on the duck and did our programs and then got on the duck and came back. So it would vary from what they had available as to where you had to go in Nha Trang.
SM: 14:20
Were the numbers of soldiers that were there, dd you, were they waiting for you? Or do they just, you were there doing things and they just kind of walked up? Or how did that work?
JSBC: 14:29
A little of each. Sometimes they knew we were coming, sometimes if we were flying in, you would drop out of the sky and it is like, "Oh my God, they are girls." You know, and it was like wildfire. "The girls, the girls came on my helicopter." So it varied. There were occasions when we had a regular stop that they knew we were coming on Monday at, you know, 11 o'clock or whatever it is. So they would have a group kind of gathered around and, you know, nobody was required to stay there. They could walk off if they did not like what you are doing. A lot of guys just would stand in the background and watch. So it, it varied. It varied. You had to roll with the punches at that point.
SM: 15:16
Did you, now were you were only there one day? Or did you sometimes be there two days?
JSBC: 15:20
No, we would be there an hour.
SM: 15:22
Oh, an hour?
JSBC: 15:23
An hour usually. Yeah, you would do six or seven stops during the course of a day.
SM: 15:29
Wow. That is a lot of stops.
JSBC: 15:31
It is a lot of stops. And so we would go from one to the other. And again, it depended on how, your, what your transportation was. And then, you know, how long does it fly- Does it take to fly such and such a place? How long does it take to you know, get the truck to, when-when we left town in the truck, we had to stop at the White Mice Station? And they had to pay the-the Vietnamese guards off for safe passage. So that was that was kind of interesting. I was like, "Richie, what are you doing?" He said, "We are paying the guards off." So, you know, the White Mice knew that we were in the area, and they would, it is okay, the girls are coming out and blah, blah, blah, blah, type thing. So that was after staying in [inaudible]. So you know, it varied, it varied.
SM: 16:23
In a typical week, would you be doing this seven day a week or five days a week?
JSBC: 16:30
Maybe six days a week.
SM: 16:31
Okay.
JSBC: 16:31
You might have a day off, but let me clue you. If you are in a combat zone, as a woman, there is no time off. [laughter] Because anyplace you go, you know, you are drawing attention and the crowd is coming. But we technically had one day off. And I know, because I became very good friends with [inaudible] and she would take me shopping. And we would go into town, we would go shopping. So I know I had time off to do that. And we cook different food together. I went to her-her house at one point and met her children it was, I was very honored actually to be able to do that. And then her husband wanted to give me a ride home. And I weighed more than he did on the motor scooter. So [laughter] he was a little, a little embarrassed that he could not give me a ride home. They had to find a vehicle for me to ride in.
SM: 17:31
Right.
JSBC: 17:31
But, you know, it is- we genuinely had one day off.
SM: 17:36
In those, and you did this for a year now, six months or a little over six months at this location, and then other locations. Were there some men or some of the troops that stood out, like in other words, that you are doing your programs, but they might want to, you know, I have not been able to talk to my mom or dad. I you know, did they ever kind of open up at all?
JSBC: 18:04
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you would go in there you do you learn to do, we learned very quickly to read nonverbally, what the case was going to be. Sometimes you would show up and they had just lost somebody. You knew that you, kind of forget the program, there was going to be no-no giggles and laughs this time. We also learned to sit next to them instead of in front of them. We very quickly learned that so that they could talk to you without being threatened. And sometimes all we felt like were-were great big ears, because we listened to them. And that was one of the things we learned to do a lot of from the older gals. Just listen to them. Let them do the talking. And if they will not talk, again, get them to talk about their weapon. They will always tell you about, you could wake them up in the middle of the night. "Tell me about your guns." And you know, they'll rattle it off. So just to get them speaking was sometimes a major accomplishment. Sometimes we heard sentences that all started with f. And we knew the meaning of every one of them. We did not pass judgment, we just listened.
SM: 18:56
Right. Were you, also were these protected areas where you were, in other words you were when you were when the troops, there was a group farther away that was protecting the area where you were. I say this because you know your very first experience on arrival in Vietnam was to have the lights turned off on the plane. Obviously you knew then that it was a different lifestyle there. You know your work, dd you ever feel worrying about, you might yourself be killed?
JSBC: 19:53
You know, that was one of the things that we laugh about and we reflect back on the younger generation now. Then we, we were 21 years old, we were like the kids now, invincible. Nothing would ever get us. We knew there was danger, we knew there was a war zone going on. We know people are getting killed and dying. But it was not first thought on our mind. We could not go to work if we, you know, we worried about that. So it was it was a danger. It was situational. There were times that things did happen. There were times that, you know, several women did get killed while we were there. But it was, you know, it was not at the top of your list in your mind. You cannot do your job if, if you were worried about that. So we just did the best we could. We, our driver had a gun. So you know, we had an armed guard technically. You know, the men were very protective of us. If anything came up, we were the first ones they would grab and, you know, get out of the way. So, it was not anything we worried about at that point in our life. Now it is a whole different thing. I would worry about it. But back then, no, being 21. And, and you know, the world is your oyster type thing. We did not think about it.
SM: 21:34
Do you know how many in, once the war was over how many in the Red Cross had died?
JSBC: 21:40
Oh, gosh, I know, there were at least five. There were three in our program that died. And I just found out the other day that there was another woman whose husband was there. She was working for another organization. And she was killed during Tet.
SM: 21:58
Wow.
JSBC: 21:59
Yeah.
SM: 22:00
You know, I reflect upon the-the wall in Washington DC, of course, the women's memorial in (19)93 that was opened, but I reflect upon the wall because I think there is only 12 names on the wall of women.
JSBC: 22:12
Right-right.
SM: 22:13
And are there any of them Red Cross?
JSBC: 22:16
Red Cross has a plaque that has their names on them. But because we were not technically military-
SM: 22:24
Right.
JSBC: 22:24
-we could not be put on the wall. And that still to this day is one of those bugaboos. You know, I live in a community that has a veteran’s group, but I am not a veteran.
SM: 22:38
Yeah.
JSBC: 22:38
I am a veteran of Vietnam.
SM: 22:40
Right.
JSBC: 22:40
But not a Vietnam veteran.
SM: 22:41
Right.
JSBC: 22:42
And that, you know, that is a very fine line of distinction. And there is resentment when you get into a group and you are not a DD 214 veteran.
SM: 22:53
Right. I understand that. I know there is, when the wall was built, all these restrictions about what other things that can be placed near the wall. Of course, the three man statue, that got through because of some power [inaudible] Vietnam vets. But, of course, the women's memorial was way overdue, way overdue. And thanks to Diane and all she did in her group. But, you know, there, I have gotten to the wall now, on Memorial Day, Veterans Day, except the last two years because of COVID every year since Lewis Puller died, because I got to know, I know, I got to know Lewis and I really felt I had to be there every year from that point forward. And-and it is interesting, because I know there has been men who had dogs that they love, there needs to be recognition for the dogs. And of course, they, no way are they going to be recognized at the wall and certain-. But people like you and who went over and we were with the, maybe there was a discussion down the road that that will change.
JSBC: 24:01
I doubt it very truthfully. I really, I cannot see, they, if they did that there are so many things they would have to do. If we all die out, then somebody might recognize it. But then they would not have to give us medical coverage or, you know, Agent Orange coverage or anything else. PTSD. We all were exposed to the whole stuff. But because we are with a private organization, we are not covered under that. And if they recognized us, then they would have to do that. So once we all die off, it'll probably happen, but not until then.
SM: 24:38
I think. Yeah, the things that were happening in America. During that time that you were there. Were you cognizant of what was going on in America itself?
JSBC: 24:48
No.
SM: 24:48
Because of the tremendous protests and divisions and everything else. The race issue racial issues, drugs, everything.
JSBC: 24:56
No, I was not well, the drugs and the race issue were after I came home. And they were not that prevalent when I was there. Because I was there early. I was there (19)67.
SM: 25:12
Right.
JSBC: 25:13
So, you know, that that starts in afterwards and becomes a problem in the (19)70s. So I was not aware of that. I, we knew there were drugs. And if you wanted them, you could get them. But it, it was not a problem for us then. If that makes sense. I mean, it sounds crazy.
SM: 25:38
And they always, they always say that the real heyday or the, when the real deaths were happening in large numbers was from (19)67 to (19)71 were the real crisis years. And I know Phil Caputo who wrote the book "A Rumor of War," he wrote the book because "Hey, wait a minute, I was there in (19)65 and (19)66. And there is a lot going on there too the-the Ia Drang Valley was very early."
JSBC: 26:04
Yeah.
SM: 26:05
So you know, I bring these things up. Because you see, so many books have been written and you know, the war was a long one and there was different periods of ups and downs, and, and certainly drugs. You know, what was happening in America was somewhat prevalent, what was happening in Vietnam as well in the early (19)70s. What, what did you do when you were after six months, where did you go after that?
JSBC: 26:30
After NhaTrang, I went to Da Nang with the First Marine Division. And we were, we had quarters in a house that we lived in and in Da Nang proper. We had a driver who had a red and white Volkswagen bus [laughs] to take us back and forth. We had a center up on freedom hill, and we had a center on the flight line for the Marine Corps, which was blown up shortly after I got there. So you know, it was a very different. I had been with the army, and I had been with the Navy in NhaTrang, basically, in special forces. Now all sudden, I am with the Marine Corps. And that was an adjustment. That was an adjustment. Not a bad one. And you know, but it was a different way of looking at military service and your obligation and things.
SM: 27:29
Yeah.
JSBC: 27:30
Yeah.
SM: 27:30
I can understand, I know a lot of Marines and-
JSBC: 27:33
Yep.
SM: 27:34
-to get to be a Marine is very difficult.
JSBC: 27:36
Yeah.
SM: 27:36
And you know, you can go through training and you do not cut it and then go into the army and but you are not a Marine.
JSBC: 27:42
Yeah.
SM: 27:42
And so, there is a pride and there is a call and I can see it the Vietnam Memorial every year, the pride is really there in being a Marine, and it goes from generation to generation too.
JSBC: 27:51
It does, and you know, great guys. A lot of I mean, I knew some of the dirty things that were going on when I was in NhaTrang. For example, I am going to backtrack a second, I had two friends who were with Air America. And they used to come by the house, the house that had the barbed wire on the outside, and we would sit and chat and talk and everything else. And one of the guys was dating a nurse in town, not a gov- not a military nurse, but a civilian nurse. And, gosh he was good looking guy, good looking guy. And anyway, one day, the other friend came by and he said, "I want to tell you that so and so is no longer here." And I said, "what happened?" He said, "He killed himself." And I said, "Oh, why?" "Well, he shot the nurse. He killed the nurse. And then he turned the gun on himself." So we knew things like that were going on. But, you know, it was a much grander scale when we got to the Marine Corps. And they had a lot of dirty stuff. I mean, you know, I, the standing joke about the "Oh apricots for me." They showed me a string of-of ear.
SM: 29:05
Wow.
JSBC: 29:06
When I was out in the field one day, and I really thought they were apricots. I really did. And today I look at apricots and I see, you know, the same thing [laughs]. And I was like, "Hmm." And then seeing shrunken heads and different things like that, and some of the beatings and some of the other problems that went into it, that I did not see in NhaTrang a lot. I was more exposed to it when I was with the Marine Corps. They were tough. There was, there was no you know, leeway. You were, you either did it or you did not do it type thing. And great guys. I love my Marines, absolutely adore them. But their duty was very different from that of the Army or the Navy. And you know if anything happens, if I ever need protection, I am going to get myself a couple of good Marines.
SM: 30:03
Yeah, I think I can remember when we had Jan Scruggs and Country Joe McDonald, they came to West Chester University back in, I think (19)99, we, we did the traveling Vietnam memorial at the university and, and-and they were speaking and Jan helped us get Country Joe. I remember we were at dinner one night and country Joe was just talking with Jan, Jan was talking to the students and-and then country Joe, just out of the clear blue says, "Well, you know why there were not any hostages, why there were not any hostage- North Vietnamese or Vietcong hostages, do not you?" And, "Because they were all killed." And I did not, I did not quite understand this, I thought there were hostages. And because what happened is a lot of the guys gave them, they gave them off to the South Vietnamese Army, and they did whatever they wanted to do to him or something.
JSBC: 31:02
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 31:03
So that and I, and Jan did not even say anything, this is all Country Joe saying it. Any he kind of, you know. So and it came up due to a question from a student. I wanted to ask you, since you were with, around these guys, you know, for an entire year and you know how America treated them upon the return home, this has really upset me for a long time, is how Vietnam veterans are treated upon their return to America. I have locals’ stories of veterans coming home and not even allowed into a Viet Veterans of Foreign Wars office. And because a lot of it has to do with My Lai and this perception that they are all crazed, and they are all bad. And that affected the women too.
JSBC: 31:46
Sure.
SM: 31:47
Did you notice when you were with the, for that year, the mental health issues that were facing a lot of the young men and women who were serving in Vietnam, and we all know now cause of post-traumatic stress disorder. And-and you said the one gentleman killed himself and then his girlfriend or whatever, just-just the overall mental health of, you know, the Agent Orange and all the things they were going through?
JSBC: 32:19
I am going to say no. As a general term, Agent Orange, we did not know about we did not understand it at that point. The mental health issues. Yeah, there were a lot of issues. And there were a lot of guys who were stressed out. But again, our job was to listen to them, and not debate the issues. And if they had a paragraph of all F words, we under, we listened to those too, and tried not to get into the debate if that makes sense. PTSD, nobody knew about at that point. You know, it, it was an emotional thing. I had, I had a Marine come into the center one day, and we had a music room where they would play drums and everything else. They were supposed to check the weapons. He brought us up, brought a weapon in with him, and all sudden, I am on duty. And I hear this, "Boom." And, you know, now what, you look. And they said, "Oh, in the music room type thing." I went into the music room, he had shot himself in the foot. So he could get out. And he left. I mean, he was gone before I even got there. "Where would he go?" "Well, he shot himself in the foot, you know, took off." So, you know, yeah, there were, the guys were under a lot of stress. And again, it was not our job to get into that finite portion of right or wrong with them. Listen to them.
SM: 33:57
Right.
JSBC: 33:58
Listen to them. So it was very interesting. You know, I do not know what I can tell you. I mean, laughter was best, the best medicine. And, and we knew that from again, the previous training from the older women that had been there before. If you get-get them to laugh, they cannot cry and they cannot laugh at the same time. If they can laugh at you, make them do that. If they can laugh at themselves, even better. You know, try and bring some humor and break that facade. If they cannot talk to you. You know if you are serving chow and you have got six of them sitting over on the other side just watching and you know, spill something on yourself or drop a dish and make them laugh. So, you know, you were always aware of that factor. I do not know if that makes sense to you.
SM: 34:56
Yeah, it does. It does. I-I was not there. I think this- It is important because the people who will be listening to these interviews, you know, it is all about research and scholarship and trying to understand the times and that war. And it is, and believe me, 20, 30 years from now, generations will be listening to these interviews as well. And I just do not want this, the (19)60s and (19)70s and the Vietnam War, and the lessons learned from these times to ever be forgotten. That is one of the goals of everything we are doing. What-
JSBC: 35:31
I can, I can tell you though Stephen. When I came home, I was accosted by women. I was doing a panel with Red Cross one night in Madison. And after I was all done, a couple of the women came up to me, and they were shaking their fingers at me. And they said, "We know what you did in Vietnam." And they were furious. You know, it is like, "You are, you are a whore. We know that." And I just looked at them kind of dumbfounded. And I sealed it off. I never talked about it for-for 10, 15 years afterwards.
SM: 35:32
Yeah.
JSBC: 35:32
It was just like, I am not going to deal with it. They do not, you know, nobody knows, as a woman, where I was for that year. It is no big deal if a woman disappears. For a guy, they were going to assume that they went over into service. But for a woman they would not. And so I just, I refused to talk about it.
SM: 36:26
When now, when your time was nearing an end for 13 months, were you thinking about what you were going to do next when you got home or were you thinking?
JSBC: 36:37
Oh, I knew. I knew already what I was going to do. I had applied to graduate school, from Vietnam. And I applied to NYU and I applied to Miami of Ohio. NYU accepted me, but did not give me any funding. And of course, I did not have any money. And so Miami gave me a full ride. And I said, I know where I am going. [laughs]
SM: 37:02
That is a good school. I worked Ohio University my first job, that is a very good school.
JSBC: 37:07
Yeah, yeah. So that, that made it very easy. But no, DaNang was a wonderful place. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about life. I learned a lot about difficult situations that men can get into. You know, I had wonderful opportunities to kind of expand my whole knowledge. We were, we had sniper fire at night into our house. Never knew I could get under a bed in hair rollers so fast in my life. As I said, our one of our centers was blown up. And I still have to this day a piece of shrapnel from that day. I you know, I used to see guys in the hospitals that look like somebody had taken the course pepper grinder to them. And I would stand there and look at them. I really did not know what at all was, it was shrapnel. And finally, after the center was blown up, it was kind of "Oh, that [laughs], that is what that is" type stuff. You know, oh gosh, going into the hospitals and I learned what burn victims smell like. We had one guy in there. He was isolated and kind of put off to the side. He was covered in patches. He had a little teeny tiny peephole, like a quarter of an inch of the bandage that he could see through. And we had gone into the wards, they had to leave him alone. So we did our thing. We talked to the guys on the ward. On leaving, we went past him. And I just could not resist. I said, "That is a nice peephole." Well, as soon as I said something, the corpsman grabbed me and decided that they were going to give me a shot, an injection, which was just water. But anyway, they got this guy who was just totally bandaged to laugh. And it was probably one of the best moments [laughter]. Here is his little itty-bitty peephole. That is all he could see is these corpsmen grabbing me. And, you know, it was it was a wonderful moment for him. It was a wonderful moment in the hospital just to give that relief to somebody. You know it-it was terrific. We had some very nasty things happen up there. We had some great things happen up there. The Air Force was up there as well. And we got to know a bunch of them. When they would do 100 missions over North Vietnam. They had a fire truck that you could, it was a water truck and you could hose anybody down within range. Well, we got to ride the fire trucks when they hosed people down [laughter]. A lot of people probably hated us. They had some music centers where we could go in and totally just decompress and just listen to music. On tapes, we all had tape decks at that point. Speaking of music, one of the great moments and to this day, I still get tears in my eyes, listening to music and Dvorak, New World Symphony.
SM: 37:46
Wow. Oh, wow.
JSBC: 40:25
When they started playing "Going Home," we had we had it playing in the center one night, or day. And when that got, I mean, it is noisy in the center. I mean, everybody's talking and people are moving around. And they were very noisy. And that piece came on. And I just remember absolute dead silence.
SM: 40:45
Wow.
JSBC: 40:46
And all these tough Marines just in another world of going home. It was beautiful.
SM: 40:53
Is not that-
JSBC: 40:54
Absolutely wonderful. And to this day, I hear that peace out. I just think that those guys just standing there. And how meaningful it was to them. God bless America was another thing that that would stop them. And so you know, you had wonderful things like that happen, as well. And very meaningful.
SM: 41:14
I know that you know, those Bob Hope tours were very important to the trips too.
JSBC: 41:18
Yeah.
SM: 41:18
Every year and of course, the singers and the entertainers that came over. But the music is known "Good Morning, Vietnam." And there is truth to that, because you know, what, no matter what you are talking about, about the people that served in the war, the music was a very important part of their lives.
JSBC: 41:34
It was.
SM: 41:35
And, and just about all that music from the (19)60s and into the mid (19)70s. I mean, we are talking. Typically, Vietnam War, we are talking (19)59 to (19)75 is what you talk about, but you know, disco came in toward the very end and everything. But, you know, did you hear music a lot when you were going around these places, were they playing it on a transistor radios?
JSBC: 41:58
If we were out in the field, no, not a lot of music out there. If we were in the centers obviously, we had the music.
SM: 42:05
Right, which of the-
JSBC: 42:07
And-
SM: 42:07
-were there, were there groups that you felt were like the groups for the troops?
JSBC: 42:14
We did not ex- I did not experience that. I am going to say I personally. We had Bob Hope with us at Phan Rang, which was my third stop. And that was meaningful. But for the most part you know, we did not go to the shows in Da Nang. They were too rough, they were too dangerous for the most part. Our center, as I said, the one on the flight line was blown up. The big center up and Freedom Hill, a couple times we were evacuated out of there because they would just throw us in jeeps and get us out there is because VC were on the other side of the hill. So you know, we kind of had to pace ourselves and see what was going on. But music, if they could, if they could hear it, they loved it. And they would play it. Not a lot of radios out in the boonies [laughs].
SM: 43:11
Now that, I am going to get into your post-Vietnam. But when you were in Vietnam, of course, you had the African American soldiers and you had the Latino soldiers and you had Native American soldiers, there was a couple books written right now, why I served. Native Americans and certainly Asian Americans as well. Did you see, was there a camaraderie between these groups during the time that you were there?
JSBC: 43:41
I did not notice the difference. Believe it or not in (19)67 I did not see the Black or the Latino or the Asians or whatever group you want to call it. I just saw soldiers. They were all brothers back then. And we had Black, white, pink, polka dot striped whatever friends amongst the groups. There, this, as crazy as it is going to sound, I did not see that difference. And maybe that is part me. And maybe it is part them. But it was early. And we accepted everybody on the same level.
SM: 44:27
As they should.
JSBC: 44:28
Yeah.
SM: 44:29
Yeah. And because you know, anybody I have talked to who has served in war, and I did not do it, so I cannot talk on it, but I have when I have talked to others is they were our brothers and sisters.
JSBC: 44:39
Yeah.
SM: 44:39
When we were in war, we do not think about this.
JSBC: 44:42
Right.
SM: 44:42
We think of survival and helping them survive.
JSBC: 44:46
Yeah.
SM: 44:46
And what happens beyond that is another story.
JSBC: 44:50
Yeah. [crosstalk] I know some of the women that came after me in the later years, noticed a difference but when I was there, I did not. People felt the same.
SM: 45:01
The last thing I wanted to mention on the what happening, was happening in Vietnam. Did you ever experience or hear about fragging?
JSBC: 45:09
Oh, yeah. We know about fragging. [laughs]
SM: 45:13
Yeah. Because-
JSBC: 45:13
Sorry about that. I know. No, we knew about fragging. We also knew and again, we would hear things when the guys came in, and they were angry. You knew you know, the next time, oh, he was fragged.
SM: 45:14
Because, uh you know, graduates of West Point in Annapolis and they had come to Vietnam and some of the young guys under them said, "Who are these guys?" Wow.
JSBC: 45:38
And you knew what happened. So we knew that was going on. I did not know anybody personally, who was fragged. But there, you know, there were things going on. There were.
SM: 45:53
On your flight back when you knew you were coming home. And were you going to just go home and visit your parents first and then go to the Miami of Ohio?
JSBC: 46:02
[laughs] Oh, you are a dreamer. [laughter] Let us see, let me let me backtrack for a few minutes. I just want to say one thing about when I, my third assignment was Phan Rang. And that was with the Air Force. [inaudible] sit on the other side, the Aussies were in the middle, we were with the Air Force. And that was where I was a unit and programming director. And for the first time, I really became aware of the danger that some of the women were in. We had VC picked up, and they had photographed the women. So they were targeting them. We had one of the girls in the group, she had gone to the beach with a soldier, and which was fine with me, they got a motor scooter, and they were going to the beach. And they had some charcoal with them. And they had, somebody put a grenade in the charcoal.
SM: 46:54
Oh, god.
JSBC: 46:54
So, we, you know, I became very aware of some of the dangers. We had a lot of people peeping toms, we had VC that would be watching the house and we had a dog, the dog would, dog was our security. Dog would bark, and you would go to the door and you would see somebody run up the hill. So we knew, I knew, I should say I knew of some of the dangers at that point that were lurking out there. And I did not, I was not aware of them in the other two locations as such. So, by the time I would become unit and program director because, I would hear from the commanding officer, this is what has happened, you have got to be aware of this. So that is, that is kind of that story. But on to coming home. Came home. I knew where it was going. I flew into, well, it was during Tet, and I could not get out. So I was in Saigon, there were five of us who were rotating out. And I, you know, I wanted out at that point. I, I had a date. I mean, I knew where I had to be in XYZ days, you know, type thing. So I eventually, it was Tet, we went with to the top of the hotel I can never remember the name of, it had a bar on the top. And we could watch all the fireworks going on all the you know, gunships and [inaudible] the ground. And I found a pilot who had a bird dog who was willing to get me back to Phan Rang, where if I got Phan Rang, I could get to Cam Ranh, if I could get to Cam Ranh and I could get a C-23 or C-130 out of the country. So that was my route. And I had a flight suit at that point. So that morning, we left first thing in the morning and the fires were still going on-on the flight line. There were bomb craters all over the place. And he got the bird dog out. Took me to Phan Rang. I got there and they said, "I thought you left, you know, what you doing back here?" And I said, "I am going to Cam Ranh, get me on a flight to Cam Ranh" and got Cam Ranh, wore my flight suit and boots, and got all set to go. But because I was a civilian, I still did not have a stamped passport. Because of that. I had to go back down to Saigon and get somebody, anybody to stamp that book, that passport book, so I could get out of the country. I had orders, but I did not have a passport. I mean, I could get out of the country. I could not get into another country.
SM: 49:38
Right.
JSBC: 49:38
So, you know back and forth and down and I finally got out, headed towards Okinawa on a military flight, and in Okinawa, then I was able to eventually get to Japan and got a commercial flight home to San Francisco. Got to San Francisco and I did not, I was not ready to go home yet [laughs]. I went to see one of my buddies. And he was an old, I had, you know, it is hard for people to understand. I had so many good friends and buddies, men. And he was an F4 pilot. And he said, you know, on your way home come to McChord Air Force Base, let us go flying. I held him to it. So I had the flight suit. And I had short hair. So I went to, I went from San Francisco to McChord Air Force Base, and we flew T-33s. And just had a wonderful time. And, you know, eventually then I got another flight and went to Madison, Wisconsin. Saw my family, "Hello, I am safe," you know, whatever. And "Oh, by the way, I have to be over in [laughs] Miami at, you know, in Oxford Ohio in a few days here." So I, short stay at home and headed towards Miami of Ohio and got into mischief there, so [laughter]. I was a handful. So that was, that was my flight home. I mean, I you know, I did not really go home-home for any length of time, I spent my time seeing a buddy. I often wonder whatever happened to him, I know he is married. He was an awful nice guy just is the one that said, you know, you are 10 pounds overweight, your head is a mess, get your act together. And, you know, it took a good friend to say that.
SM: 51:40
When you, when that plane took off, you know, I am going to ask, when that plane took off, and you were off the ground, and you were heading home to San Francisco. What was going through that mind of yours?
JSBC: 51:51
Well, that flight was out of Japan.
SM: 51:53
Oh, ok Japan.
JSBC: 51:54
Out of Japan. And I had a very nasty dirty man sitting next to me and he wanted to give me a permanent gig, give me a job. He had a position for me. I said, "I have been through a year, you know, 13 months in Vietnam of all these men, and it was an extra dirty old man who was [inaudible] me?" [laughter] I could not believe it.
SM: 52:15
Wow.
JSBC: 52:16
So, it was a very quiet long flight. [laughter]
SM: 52:22
Okay, so when you were going to Miami, Ohio, what were you going to major in?
JSBC: 52:28
I was getting a master's in educational supervision.
SM: 52:32
Okay.
JSBC: 52:34
And I was working in the art department. Specifically in the ceramics lab.
SM: 52:41
Is that a two-year program or-?
JSBC: 52:42
No, it was a one-year program. And at the end of it, we had to do an exhibit. We had to you know, pass our exams. And then we took a bunch of kids and we went to New York. You know, so it was kind of fun. But it was an interesting year, and I had developed a very good friend, who I decided I was I was not going to stay in the American, in America anymore. I did not like American women at that point. They were snippy snotty, and they had no clue what was going on in the world. And that was just my bias. And so I had I had an opportunity to apply for the USO and become an associate director of the USO. And they offered me a job in Guam or back to Vietnam. And I said, "Well, I have been to Vietnam, I might as well go to Guam." And this other gal in our department, liked what I was doing, she decided she was going to apply but she was six months younger than I was. So of course, she got to go to Thailand. And that was where I wanted to go. And you know, we had many, many funny stories as that story goes on. But that was what I did afterwards.
SM: 53:58
And how long were you there?
JSBC: 54:01
My tour was almost two years. And I met my husband over there. So I kind of ended it a little bit early and my mother came over and my mother and I traveled around the world.
SM: 54:15 Wow.
JSBC: 54:15
Yeah.
SM: 54:15
What what-was the- your job responsibilities with the USO?
JSBC: 54:20
Well, one thing it would have been, it did not last that way. Our director heart attack and died. So two of us who were the associates became, you know, the surrogate directors. We ran a daycare center. We had a big facility on a beach. We did a lot of things, civic programs that were, we were involved. I took the guys what we call duney stomping, we would take them hiking up in the hills of Guam where they were still fighting Japanese from World War Two up there. So it, you know, it varied again but it was another tropical island.
SM: 54:59
And after Guam you came home again?
JSBC: 55:02
After Guam I came home again and I did get married. I was not 100 percent sure, as the closer I got to New York that I wanted to do that, but I did.
SM: 55:13
Right. How did you get your PhD?
JSBC: 55:19
Raised two children, went through PTSD did a bunch of other things in the community, and decided, well, why not? I have got a Master's degree. And so I applied, and I was interested in the adult learning program. And just did it on a lark basically, got accepted and cried all the way across town saying, "What have I done, what have I done? Oh, my God, what have I done now?" And anyway, you know, I had to live on campus for a while. And my husband moved in the meantime, down to Virginia for a job. So we were back and forth. And, you know, got all the way through all the exams and everything else. And working, this is just as computers were coming in. So I would send papers home, and it would take a week to get back up to Connecticut, and then 10 days to be read and, you know, back down, and it was not working out one might say. So, I took one degree and then decided that I was ABD at that point, that I still wanted to write the dissertation. And I was interested in women in the Iraq war and their communication patterns. And so I proposed it to another online school at that point, they accepted it, and I finished the PhD that way.
SM: 56:43
Wow, that is a good story, too. My God.
JSBC: 56:46
Yep-yep. So, I got to meet some of the girls from the Iraq war that that way that I am still in touch with, which is really neat.
SM: 56:52
Do you stay in touch with any of the people you worked with in Vietnam?
JSBC: 56:57
In Vietnam? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have a whole group of us, a whole group of us.
SM: 57:02
Do you meet? Or do you just kind of-
JSBC: 57:05
We periodically try and meet, of course, COVID has not helped. And we are going to, a couple of us are in charge of a conference that will be held in (20)23, up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. So, we are getting that one in the in the works at this point, which is kind of fun. We try, it tries to move it from different places around the United States. So other people can go when it is, you know, closer by.
SM: 57:30
I want to ask you about if you and your peers in the Red Cross, after leaving Vietnam, went through what we just talked about briefly here about how you were treated in in the United States upon your return, when people knew that you served. You know, Vietnam veterans are treated so poorly until (19)82, when the wall was built.
JSBC: 57:53
Yeah.
SM: 57:53
In fact, they were even I was in California at the time. And I, but I heard there were protesters outside on the streets, even when the wall was being opened, which I thought was ridiculous.
JSBC: 58:04
Oh, yeah.
SM: 58:05
What the heck-? But just that-that has been, it is not happening now. Because now we got the issue of people lying that they were Vietnam veterans.
JSBC: 58:15
Yeah.
SM: 58:15
You know, because they are, they are accepted. But at that time, they were treated poorly. Did you experience any of that?
JSBC: 58:21
It still happens, it still happens. I will give you an example the other day, with a veterans group locally here, I kind of walked in, well, I backtrack a second. They have two libraries in two of the clubs here, one for each of the buildings. And there are a ton of books about war, and Vietnam and the other wars. There was not one book about women. And when I looked at the shelf, I said, "What, I can do something about this!" So I had a couple books, and I took them over when the group was getting together that they meet once a month. And I gave them to the guy who was running the group. And I said, "Here is the start of your woman's collection." And I said I was a Donut Dollie in Vietnam, and he was very receptive. He took me into the room and he introduced me. And [groans] not everybody is enthralled by you know, being a Donut Dollie in Vietnam. Because a lot of people still do not like the Red Cross. And it is a mixed review, let us put it that way. And they said, "Well, you can stay" and I said, "No, this is a veteran’s group." And again, I am a veteran of Vietnam. I am not a, you know, Vietnam veteran.
SM: 59:41
Right.
JSBC: 59:41
And I said, But I would be more than happy to help you and anything you need done, just call me, just let me know. So I left and about two weeks later, in a ladies group. I am sitting there and I am talking to [inaudible] some of the women and I said something. And the one woman looked at me whose husband-husband was a West Point graduate. And she said, "Oh, the Donut Dollie!" And you know, it has taken me several weeks to figure out, that was not the biggest compliment. [laughter] So her husband must have gone home and said, "Oh, and we have a Donut Dollie," you know. And she came through and it was not gracious. So, you know, it does still happen. They do not always accept it. And it was difficult for a woman to really say where she was, and to be accepted.
SM: 1:00:43
Well, we all know what Diane Carlson Evans went through when the hearings in Congress and she was called everything. And boy, just like Jan Scruggs and creating the wall, it took a lot of courage and guts to get through all the battles to make it happen. But when what where, did you visit the, were you there the day the woman's memorial was dedicated, or?
JSBC: 1:01:11
Yes, I was.
SM: 1:01:13
That was in I think, November 11th of (19)93.
JSBC: 1:01:17
I am not sure the year but yeah, I was down there.
SM: 1:01:20
What, can you talk about that day, in terms of your feelings, being there with the nurses, Red Cross, Donut Dollies, I know Holley Watts, I know her well.
JSBC: 1:01:33
Yeah.
SM: 1:01:33
Just the feeling of being there on that day?
JSBC: 1:01:38
Well, I think for most women, it has come a long way. And they are they are pretty darn accepting of one another right now. No, we were not nurses, we did not do what they did. They did not do what we did. It took all of us to make that year, go away for the you know, for the guys. And it was about the men, it was not about us. And so, you know, it, the recognition from one another as females has increased a thousand fold. At one point, we were each other's enemy. You know, in Vietnam, the nurses or the Donut Dollies, or the USO people or the special services. Everybody kind of protected their own turf. But afterwards, after the-the dedication to the wall, and specifically when the dedication of the women's Memorial, it really became more of a united group. And there, many of the organizations that if you were there, we do not care. You can be, you know, be a member of this. I did receive a Presidential Award for VV, from VVA at one point. And so, you know, that made me feel pretty good. Three of us were asked to show up in Springfield convention and they gave us an award. So this is very nice recognition. You know, there is still, a lot of doors are still closed, they always will be. Whose problem is that? Is that the other side's problem or ours? I think it is the other side's problem.
SM: 1:03:22
I agree, I agree.
JSBC: 1:03:24
And, you know, we have many generations that have gone past now. And that is kind of cool.
SM: 1:03:32
I often ask people who have been to the women's Memorial, of course, have been to the Vietnam Memorial. The first time you visited the Vietnam Memorial. I do this and I am still doing it every time I go there I, when the when the remembrance events are over, I sit in a chair before they put all the- I sit there for about an hour. And I just, I look at the wall and I am not a veteran and [inaudible] to go through but I lived through it through a college student and all of all that stuff. I see so many things on that wall. I know Jan Scruggs, I told him about this, I see what you guys did to make this wall happen. I just still do not know how they made it happen. It took, because I know his story as well as Jack Wheeler, who sadly was killed in Wilmington, Delaware a couple years back and I see the faces of Vietnamese, I see the faces of the soldiers I see the faces of the nurses I see the faces of, you know, the Red Cr- I see everything there. I-I just kind of stare at it, and it is just me. But I am wondering what other people, when they see that wall, what they see? I do not know if you if you tend to spend time there you know, I know a lot of the women go to make sure they look up the names of the 12 nurses who were there. And, but and of course, the Vietnam vets you know the guys that died by their side, Jan Scruggs has a whole section where the guys who you served with died, so he would obviously go there.
JSBC: 1:05:07
Right.
SM: 1:05:07
The Ia Drang Valley guys go to another section. I mean, do you? What-what do you see? Or what do you think some of the other women see when they go to that wall?
JSBC: 1:05:19
I think it is going to be very personal for each one that does it. More than the wall, the massiveness of it, because we did not know a lot of their, their names, when we went to see the guys, I mean, if we tried, it hurt too much to know that it was Steve Smith, or Joe Blow, it became hairy or slick, or what, we gave them nicknames. So, I do not know who those names are there, per se. But what I do is I see the faces of the people who are looking at the wall. And I see and sense their feelings. It has it has touched so many people in different ways. That it is, it is almost a gut feeling. If somebody's in trouble, you just go over and you have to put a hand on their arm or a shoulder or, you know, look at them in the eye and just say I understand, you do not have to say anything else.
SM: 1:06:30
Right. I love it when I see grandparents with parents and grandchildren. I see it more and more. And now we are talking great grandchildren-
JSBC: 1:06:44
Yeah.
SM: 1:06:44
-because people are living longer.
JSBC: 1:06:45
Yep.
SM: 1:06:46
And-and when I see kids there and-and they are pointing to a name of a grandfather that they never heard of.
JSBC: 1:06:55
Right.
SM: 1:06:56
It touches me. It is about [crosstalk] history, it is about never forgetting.
JSBC: 1:07:01
Right.
SM: 1:07:02
And I, and when I when I see that wall I, it is about remembrance. It is like what Jan Scruggs originally said, to heal a nation but most importantly to heal the families of those who died in that war, who gave-
JSBC: 1:07:17
Right.
SM: 1:07:18
-their ultimate sac- who paid the ultimate price for service.
JSBC: 1:07:21
Yeah.
SM: 1:07:22
Plus, also, to pay respects for those who are still alive and served and were never treated you know, like they should have been upon their return and, and not make it a political entity. It is about service.
JSBC: 1:07:38
Yep.
SM: 1:07:39
And that has, Jan has done a tremendous job in making sure that happens. Politics always comes up, you know, at some of the remembrance events about you know, Tet and the soldiers' stories in the you know, everything- politics does come up and Bill Clinton went to the wall, obviously the booing took place because he did not serve. So it was that kind of thing. But I thought the courage of Jan Scruggs and Lewis Puller to bring him to the wall on that day was important.
JSBC: 1:08:08
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 1:08:09
It was so important. And I was there and, and I understood why the guys were booing, but I also understood the other side. That is why I like Lewis Puller because it was Lewis, I do not know if you ever knew Lewis. He was an unbelievable veteran who did not live long enough. He wrote the brunt, I think the greatest book ever written on, you know, "Fortunate Son." And he wanted to be up there and he wanted to introduce Mr. Clinton, and he did.
JSBC: 1:08:41
Good job.
SM: 1:08:42
And it was about healing. And one thing, Sam, that I want to mention to you, too, is something that has always been on my mind, I would like your thoughts. Do you ever think about the healing process in terms of not only our Vietnam veterans and their families, their survivors, but also the nation as a whole? Do you think, do you think about the healing process of that war and how it really still affects us?
JSBC: 1:09:11
It still affects us and I am going to share an incident with you that we could not have done a while ago. When I was teaching at the University of Connecticut at Western. I had been in the department teaching probably 10 years. One of the fellow officers from their police department used to love to come to my class and we would do a course or, you know, a session on nonverbal behavior. He was a wonderful placement, he had first experience with nonverbal, was with a Native-Native American who would not give him eye contact. So, I knew the story and I knew how to act as he has told the story. And you know, the kind of shook the kids in the classroom. They say, "Woa, we had not thought about that" type thing. And anyway, as he was cleaning up that one particular day, he was muttering and sputtering, he had to go back to the office and his boss was a hardass Vietnam vet. And I went, "Hmm." And I, I did not say anything. I just kind of looked at him and said, "He is?" And he says, "Oh, yeah, you know," and I said, "Why did not you tell me this a long time ago?" Well, when I wrote the thank you note, which I always did, to the chief of police, I, you know, said what a wonderful job has his man had done and you know blah, blah, blah. I could not resist because I sent a box of doughnuts. And-and I signed it "DD Vietnam 67-68." Well, about three, I figured I would either get parking tickets for the rest of my life over on the campus, or I was going to, you know. And three days later, the chief of police called me. And he said, “This is Chief McLaughlin.: I am like, yes, waiting for the shoe to fall. And it did not. And we started telling stories. He said, when were- you were and I told him, I said (19)67, (19)68 He said, "I was there (19)67, (19)68. Where were you in [inaudible]." He was in Nha Trang when I was in Nha Trang. And one evening, I was going into a restaurant with an officer, we were going to dinner, there was a scuffle and a bang. I mean, it is a war zone. Not a big deal. And we went into the restaurant to obviously get out of the way. And we heard that a 14 year old kid had been shot. Nothing ever happened of it. I mean, nothing in Vietnam ever came of the whole thing. I am talking to the chief of police from my university. And he says as I am telling them the story about going into a restaurant and there was a kid shot. He said, "Stop, the hair on my arms is up." That kid was 14 years old. And I just stopped and held my breath. And he said, "I was MP on duty that shot him."
SM: 1:12:08
Holy cow.
JSBC: 1:12:11
And, I mean, it was, you know, it was like, "Ughhh." We met at a ceremony that they were holding a couple of weeks later, I still did not know who the man was. And I walked in, some of the cops are there and I said, "Where is the chief?" and they said, "He is out there." As soon as I walked through the door, and he saw me, he broke into tears. This is a huge burly guy. And he is just sobbing. And he grabbed me and you know, just sobbed and sobbed. And suddenly, you know, they finally got his act together again. And because they have ceremonies to do, he had to, to lead the group. So afterwards, we got talking. We became very good friends. And we were good friends for about four years and he developed cancer and then eventually he died. He left the campus and he died. When we went to the funeral, the cops are standing Color Guard [inaudible], and then walked down and they said, "No wisecracks from you, no wisecracks from you, no wise- [laughs] you know, this is a serious event." And I said, "No problem, no problem." I did my, you know, my honors, and got over towards his family, and his sister grabbed me. And she said, I want you to know that Neil McLachlan was a name, that Neil was a [inaudible] SOB until that day. And after he met you, and found out that he had saved lives, his whole life changed.
SM: 1:13:43
Wow.
JSBC: 1:13:45
And it was just like, I guess you never know when it is going to happen. But Neil was very special. And when he passed away then, we got him a memorial stone at the State Capitol in, in Connecticut and Hartford. And we have now moved to Plymouth, Massachusetts. Neil is buried 20 minutes from here. And it is just like "Do-do-do-do-do-do" so my husband and I for Veterans Day, drove down to the cemetery. And we went to see Neil, and we laid stones, and we laid, actually we laid coins on his grave to remember him.
SM: 1:14:22
What a memory, what a story.
JSBC: 1:14:24
Yeah, it is just like, you never know-
SM: 1:14:27
Nope.
JSBC: 1:14:28
-when it is going to happen, or what meaning it is going to have to somebody.
SM: 1:14:33
Wow.
JSBC: 1:14:35
So that is, you know, that is kind of a neat story about just that connection that you develop.
SM: 1:14:42
Yeah. Wow. Have you put that in writing?
JSBC: 1:14:47
I have not. I have not. I have told a couple people about it. And I have written a book about the Civil War women but it does not- [inaudible]
SM: 1:14:56
Yeah, that is what my next question-
JSBC: 1:14:58
-does not come up in that book.
SM: 1:15:00 I am just going to-
JSBC: 1:15:00
But no, several people I have told about that. And you know, it is just one of those profound life experiences that you have that I mean, it was so simple that night. It was a gunshot and he was EMP.
SM: 1:15:15
My gosh, I only got maybe three more questions. When I was talking about the wall, what I, I kind of write down things after every time I visit the wall and, and Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. I also go to the World War Two Memorial for my dad who was not allowed to see it.
JSBC: 1:15:37
Okay.
SM: 1:15:38
The two things that came up to my mind every time I go to the wall in Washington is, American heroes.
JSBC: 1:15:46
Okay.
SM: 1:15:46
American heroes, number one, but then unnecessary death. Looking at the war, and-and I also feel sad for the Vietnamese who died, because I see a lot of Vietnamese lives were lost.
JSBC: 1:16:04
Right, yep.
SM: 1:16:05
And I have talked to enough Vietnam veterans now who have gone back to Vietnam. And they can empathize with Vietnamese soldiers, just like they can with the American soldiers.
JSBC: 1:16:19
Yeah.
SM: 1:16:20
You know, they were doing their duty, they were called to war and they were serving their nation. So I kind of leave it at that. I am going to maybe conclude here with, I would like to know about your book. "The Women of City Point, Virginia, 1864- 1865."
JSBC: 1:16:37
Correct.
SM: 1:16:38
And how that might be linked to Vietnam.
JSBC: 1:16:40
Very easy. Back in the (19)80s, we were doing a peripatetic form for southern New England telephone. There were eight of us that the Veterans Center in New Haven, Connecticut had put together and we would go out and talk. This is when awareness about feelings and your family started. And we would go out and talk to the families of people from southern New England telephone, about the Vietnam experience. And one of the guys [inaudible], Joe Mariani ,was working for a bank, and they were cleaning out a vaul- vault one day, and he saw "Women in the War" by Frank Moore, it was a (18)65-(18)66 book. He asked if we could have it, they said, "Yes," he eventually got it and gave it to me. I opened it and like Neil, the hair on my arms went up. I said, I know these women. I know, you know, the sights, the sounds, the smells. I know these women. Long story short, Fred said, you cannot write about everybody in the Civil War, and one of those transfers to Virginia for his job, Civil War territory. We had, you could go out in the backyard and find bullets in your backyard. So I started to manage, I was still going to school, I managed to do a research internship with the National Park Service down there. We started with 12 women. When I left we had 177, then I did an exhibit for the park service. And I wrote an article for Virginia cavalcade magazine. And everybody kept saying, and it just kept snowballing. I mean, I could not leave the women alone. And I had hundreds of them. And so they finally said, you know, proverbial expression, you know, something or other get off the pot type thing. So I started writing the book, and I tell the stories, I could see the difference of the women's jobs and roles because of my experiences. And I understood not all of them were nurses, like women in Vietnam, we were not all nurses. And I started writing it like the stories I would tell people that would come to the park service, to city point. And so their stories, as well as research at the end of what happened to a lot of these ladies. I had approached a lot of different publishing companies. And finally, McFarland said, "Sure, we will publish the book," I nearly fell off my chair, but and so I wrote it. And there are no pictures in it because of copyright issues, we could not do that. So, it is just the stories, but it is of eight different groups of women basically. And frequently, I just did a lecture or presentation to the Civil War group here about the book and the different roles of the women. And it is, you know, they are just fun stories, there is sad stories, there is sweet stories they are you know, difficult stories for some people to tell. But I have done it and I am working on a couple other things. [Inaudible] lady that was from Connecticut, who is a courier for Judah P. Benjamin. And I will do another presentation in the spring, well April I think I am doing that one and throwing it out so that the guys from the group can put their input into, what am I missing? What-what I, do I not have in this? So, it is just kind of been a love of life that has gone from it. But it all started with a book from, you know, women in the war.
SM: 1:20:29
Golly. I bet Diane Carlson Evans would love that book.
JSBC: 1:20:33
Ah, I bet she would. Yeah.
SM: 1:20:36
I might email or a let her know or whatever. I am not in touch with her. But I could certainly-
JSBC: 1:20:43
And of course, it came out right as COVID started.
SM: 1:20:46
Right.
JSBC: 1:20:46
Went into lockdown. [laughs]
SM: 1:20:49
My last. My last question is this, and this is I started this a couple of interviews ago. Since this, these interviews that I am doing are going to be listened to by people who are not even alive yet. The goal of the Center for the Study of the (19)60s is to create a really powerful digital center of its kind for research and scholarship, which is what Binghamton University is all about too and, and national scholars so that people will come here to not only listen to tapes, but to study and study this period. We hope to get PhD students eventually, they are going to be hiring a director, a PhD, who will be the director, but also work with Dean Curtis Kendrick, who is the head of the library, and I am running this whole thing. And-and so I am trying to, losing my train of thought here, you ever had that happen?
JSBC: 1:21:43
Never-never, never.
SM: 1:21:47
What, it is a message, it is the message that you would like to give to those who are listening to this 20 and 30 years from now, even the ones today, of course, but 20 and 30, based on your experiences in Vietnam, and what you have learned in your life, what message would you like to give to those who are listening to your interview 10, 20, 30 and 40 years from now?
JSBC: 1:22:13
Oh, gosh, there is an inner strength in each of us, I think that most people never even tap into. And that strength will get you through a lot of difficult times. And life is going to be difficult. There are going to be some very difficult times in life. You can learn I mean, you have a choice, you can go forward. Or you can go backwards and being able to say, "Okay, things are not good today, things are wrong things are whatever it might be." And Heaven only knows what it is going to be 20 years from now. But we have a choice, we can go forward. And how are you going to do that? There is a direction that you can move in, and it is your choice to make that direction. I think that is one of the lessons I learned in Vietnam.
SM: 1:23:08
Well, Sam, very, thank you very much for spending this hour and a half with me.
JSBC: 1:23:12
No problem.
SM: 1:23:13
And I am going to turn the tape off right now, and thanks again.
(End of Interview)
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Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie
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