134 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b56409015714911749ba120e2aa2d232.jpg fe5ff929932a844cea43a533a7fcec86 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76af0b02baee1160100cd7f3946f2877.mp3 956b3c45e55e7aece41328059426a1c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Thom Date of Interview 2011-06-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 120:26 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of MS. MAGAZINE entitled INSIDE MS.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night.</span> Subject LCSH Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mary Thom Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 27 June 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. All right, we are going to get going here. MT (00:00:10): Okay. SM (00:00:13): And I will be checking these. It is probably be better to have these here. MT (00:00:18): [inaudible] whatever you want. SM (00:00:22): Yeah, because your voice just [inaudible] just speak up and I will continue to borrow your pen here. Yeah, first question I like to ask everyone is what were your personal growing up years like huh? Who were the people that inspired you? Who were your role models? How did you become who you are of the people? Because especially on women's issues and so forth, and a writer. Where did Mary Tom come from? MT (00:00:50): Literally, I was born in Cleveland and grew up in Akron, Ohio. And my family was basically Ohio conservative, which at that point in the (19)50s was not social conservatism as much as tapped economic, that kind of thing. So it is interesting that both my sister and I turned out to have completely different politics than our parents, but I cannot think politics were a big thing in the family. It was around, and certain social welfare was an issue. And my father, especially, I think, was a very kind of open guy and had friends from all kinds of different parts of society. And that was influential. After grade school, we went to a private day school, and I had teachers there that were very influential, and especially a history teacher, Mrs. Shepherd, who was extraordinary. I think she influenced me to become... I studied history as an undergraduate and also a Columbia and graduate school, so that was her influence. But I did not really realize that I talked differently from many of my classmates until the years that I was studying with her, which was sort of my junior and senior year of high school. And one of the things she did is she brought the film on HUAC, what was it? SM (00:02:57): Oh, house on air. MT (00:02:57): Yeah, but what was the film called? I cannot remember. It was a very famous film where they sort of exposed what HUAC was doing in terms of... And half the class sort of was horrified because it made them think that we were being invaded by Russians, and the other half the class was horrified at HUAC. So it was this sort of balancing thing. So I do not even think I had realized until then that there was this sort of bedrock conservative and a communist. SM (00:03:37): Was that (19)50s or late (19)50s? MT (00:03:39): Yeah, I mean, I graduated high school in (19)62, so that must have been (19)60, (19)61, (19)62. And then another in incident that happened is, because this is very sort of Lily White Ohio community is a black girl, came to one of the picnics where we recruit new students. And some of my people who I thought of as my best friends were horrified that there would be a black girl, which I just could not understand. I mean, I had never been brought up that way at all. So it was sort of an interesting... And then the other thing that was happening is that we were following the anti-war movement, there were marches against, I guess it was not war so much as anti-nuke because it was Skunk in (19)90 and that sort of thing. And there were marches in Cleveland, and I knew people that had been doing that. And also one of the biggest influences, I think, was that there was a Shakespeare festival every summer in and around Cleveland and Akron. And the guy who was head of the McMillan Theater in Princeton brought this festival. And other friends of mine hung out there. And we did tasks, we sold tickets. Some worked on the lighting for maybe three years in succession. And at the same time, I went to summer school with some of the kids that were... At that time, going to summer school the first time that I knowingly had friends who were brought up in Democratic family and families that were part of the Democratic Party. So that was sort of very opening my mind to things. And then I was also involved in folk music, so I read, Sing Out. Oh, yeah. And my mother was horrified because she said, "we are going to get on a list" which I thought was stupid, but probably was not. So there are all these sort of conflicting things. SM (00:06:22): You went off to Columbia? MT (00:06:23): No, I went to Bryn Mawr undergraduate. SM (00:06:25): You went Bryn Mawr, and then what did you do in graduate school? MT (00:06:29): I went to Columbia in European history. SM (00:06:31): What was it like? What were the college environments? I mean, both schools at the time that you were there? MT (00:06:38): Okay, Bryn Mawr was sort of- SM (00:06:41): You can keep going. I shall keep checking. MT (00:06:48): No, that is okay. Bryn Mawr was on the verge of becoming radicalized when I was there. I graduated in (19)66. Kathy Dedan was a friend of mine, I mean she was a year ahead of me. She was more of a mentor, I suppose, than a friend. And she had brought a very influential event to campus, which I think it is called the Second American Revolution, where a bunch of kids from the south, from Tulu and different schools and people in the Civil Rights movement came to campus. And I cannot remember if it was my freshman or sophomore year. SM (00:07:27): That is pretty big, because- MT (00:07:31): It was enormous, exactly. So I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And in fact, with my friend Jenny Kerr, who's who was from Indiana, we started something called the Social Action Committee at Bryn Mawr. And I think it was sort of more or less under the auspices of Kathy and some of her friends who I believe sort of loved the idea of these Middle Western kids as opposed to people from radical families organizing. So that was an organ for... We raised money for Snick to send down. We did something called Fast for Freedom, where we convinced the administration to take the money from a fast and let us get it to give it to activist, which did not raise much money, but it was a vehicle to... And we worked on students’ rights issues, which were really feminist issues because of Bryn Mawr. I mean things like that we were not allowed to stay out late and things like that. I mean, we altered some of those rules, those paternalistic rules. And then the other thing we did, which I found a little problematic, but was probably harmless, is that we organized the Maids and Porters, Bryn Mawr was like a plantation at that point, although very- SM (00:09:17): (19)62, (196)3, (196)4 and (196)6? MT (00:09:28): Young, mostly black people took care of being maid some porters. And they lived in these small rooms, and basically, their grievances were that they could not have any kind of normal life because they could not have men in your rooms and things like that. So that was interesting. I mean, what we did is talk to a lot of my new young women in this situation and got them excited about making demands. The reason it was problematic for me is that this was sort of the junior and senior year. And then I realized I was going off, and then here, I had sort of stirred up this- SM (00:10:19): Can of worms and... MT (00:10:22): So what we did, I mean, I think we acted responsibly. We got involved some labor people from Philadelphia who came in and were counseling to these people. So I think it was fine, but I realized at that point that I was mobilizing and doing- SM (00:10:46): See those kinds of things were not really happening in the (19)50s on just about any campus. I think there was sensitivity on campuses toward what was going on in the South New York, students were cognizant, but even the African American students in the South, the lunch counters was like (19)60, (19)61 in that particular time frame. So you are in the kind of what I call the forerunners of this feeling, correct me if I am wrong, that you view that your voice really did count and that you wanted to be change agents for the betterment of society. MT (00:11:21): Absolutely and- SM (00:11:22): I mean of a development of self-esteem, that you were somebody, even when you were a college student, that your voice needed to be heard. MT (00:11:31): Oh, yeah. I mean, think that is absolutely true, and I think Bryn Mawr was a place to encourage that, even when we were being nettling up to- SM (00:11:42): Off to Columbia next, and of course, we all know what happened 60 years- MT (00:11:45): First, let me just say, the other thing I did is I went down to... Bryn Mawr would not allow exchanges because they were so snotty, they did not want the students to go off any place else. But we did arrange three week exchange over spring break. So I went down to Tulu, and this was in (19)64 maybe. I am trying to remember, maybe 65. And that was very influential as a group of us from Haverford and from Bryn Mawr. We were also involved in antiwar movement and things like that. And I had also been involved in Philadelphia. And for the summer when the Shona and Channey and Goodman were killed, I was in New York working with Core. So I had become quite involved at that point. But the trip to Tougaloo was particularly amazing because we did not do much. I mean, we just sort of hung out with the kids. But you drove around Jackson in an integrated car, especially with license plates from a northern state. And there was a tank in the town, basically. I mean, it was a police vehicle that was armored. And nothing happened, but you had had the sense of what had happened and could happen. SM (00:13:19): How many were in your group that went south and you were there for six weeks? MT (00:13:22): Weeks? No, no, not six weeks, less than that. Okay, two or three. Yes, I said they were not willing to let us off for that long. I guess there might have been 12. SM (00:13:36): How did you get there? Just by car? MT (00:13:39): Yeah, it was just organized it fairly informally. And we had made contact with these two little kids from the thing that Kathy had organized years before. And it kept up some of the contacts. SM (00:13:54): Did the kids and the people there tell you what it was like to live in this? MT (00:14:00): Oh, yeah, they did. I know from my friend John Edgar, who was at Miz later with me, she was at Millsaps at the time, which is a white college in Jackson. And she did things like organized to get the Tulu kids into the Millsaps Library. And the tool they used was that Millsaps had the federal deposit branch of whatever, the library, the books. And so that they argued that they had to let the Tougaloo kids come into the library and use it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on and Tougaloo was at the heart of it, various radical... I cannot remember their names now, but professors, yeah, were there. So it was a great place to learn about what- SM (00:14:58): Did you fear for your life when you were there? MT (00:15:00): No, but I just realized, I mean, you had a heightened sensibility. I mean, you sort of feared for your life. I mean, you sort of knew what had happened to people. I mean, we were in the middle of Jackson. We were not out on some country roads, but certainly the kids told us, if you were driving around, be careful. No, it is amazing. SM (00:15:28): Especially when the Shona, Cheney and Goodman was killed. And I talked to a couple people that were actually being trained and they were heading down after and there was a fear, but they still wanted to do it because- MT (00:15:44): But mostly what I... I mean, absolutely. But mostly what I remember about that was hanging out with the two little kids and drinking deer and discussing music. I mean... SM (00:15:56): But you were expanding your horizons. You have seen the world as it really was not the way mom and dad may have. MT (00:16:05): That is right, much to my parents feared dismay, although they always were supportive of both my sister and me. SM (00:16:17): The second question I have is, in your own words, what was it like being a woman in the (19)50s? MT (00:16:29): In the (19)50s? SM (00:16:30): Well, I would, saying a high school, a female going to high school from (19)58 to (19)62, to be in college from (19)62 to (19)66. Things started changing in the late (19)60s. But what was it like being women in the (19)50s and (19)60s? Any gains? I have a lot of notes here. I have read- MT (00:16:54): No-no, that is right. SM (00:16:57): [inaudible] The era of was this was a stay at home. This was a number when most women were staying. MT (00:17:02): Certainly my mother was of that, and she stayed at home. She was very happy to be staying at home. She did a lot of volunteer work because that would advance her family. I mean well, both because she was a good volunteer but I mean, that was part of what her job was, was to represent us to the community. So that was sort of a given but on the other hand, there I was at an all-girl school. Well, we had a couple boys in our class through middle school, but through high school. And that made a big difference in terms of what we thought of ourselves intellectually. I mean, we never had that kind of intimidation that other kids had. SM (00:17:51): Did you go to an all-girls high school too? Okay. MT (00:17:54): Yeah. SM (00:17:54): So you come from a little different [inaudible] MT (00:17:56): Yeah. I went to all girls high school. We certainly had contact with the local boys schools and went to proms. And that was always sort of not something that I felt comfortable. I mean, I felt comfortable enough, but it was not something that... But then it did not matter that much because my life was in this other kind of situation. So I had boyfriends, but they were not like be all of my existence. And then I went Bryn Mawr. And that was kind of a great atmosphere because we had our own institution. But I took classes at Haverford, and certainly the organizing had to do with kids from Haverford. One of my boyfriends was actually... I do not know if I want you to use this, but I will tell you anyway, was Ben Davis and his father was part of the Center for Constitutional Rights, one of the founders. SM (00:19:12): Oh? MT (00:19:17): And that is how I got to know Kathy Bine. They were Steve Smith, which was her boyfriend, and Ben were roommates. SM (00:19:25): Now, Kathy is, correct me, I am wrong. Did she die in the- MT (00:19:30): No, she went to prison. SM (00:19:32): Yeah, she was in prison. MT (00:19:32): And she is out. Now, she is out. She has been out for about 10 years, I think. But she had a kid that then the Jennifer... It was a [inaudible] what is her name? Brought up her son. SM (00:19:50): I think she used to have her boyfriend was the one that married Bernadine Dorn. MT (00:19:55): Not her boyfriend, but they were friends. But Bernadine Dorn and-and that guy whose name escaped me was brought up her kid. SM (00:20:03): Oh, wow. MT (00:20:04): Kathy's child. SM (00:20:05): Huh. MT (00:20:07): But I did not have anything much to do with her except I heard about them when I was at Columbia. I had friends who were in living in.... They had just been living in Chicago and had been in Chicago during the Democratic doing. And Kathy and some other people had been sort of camping out of their... SM (00:20:34): I think there is a book out on them, on that family that- MT (00:20:38): Yeah, Susan Brody wrote a book on them, and Susan was at Bryn Mawr a few years before me. But anyway, I mean that Kathy had obviously gone through these sort of transforming things, partly in Cleveland and then partly later. And I knew kind of what it was, because I left Columbia in (19)68 during the uprising. And at that point, I had a boyfriend and I came home every evening. So I was not there doing some of the demonstrations, but I was there enough to be voting. We were also involved in getting more rights for graduate students and things like that. And I saw what would happen to doing the demonstrations but what people did once you threw stone through the window of the Dean's office. I mean, that was sort of the middle class kids throwing that off and becoming agents and radicalized. And it was not something that I felt that... Maybe I made those decisions afterwards. That is what was happening. SM (00:22:03): Your background is one again, where high school and college, women had a voice. Women were important, in a lot of society. A lot of women did not have that feeling. And one of the criticisms of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement has been that women were placed in secondary roles, not all but most. And they got tired of the way men treated them. And that was one of the thrusts of the women's movement. They split away from the anti-war civil rights. And even people I have talked to admit that those two movements were just, were that way. MT (00:22:49): Oh, they were. Absolutely. SM (00:22:50): Did you think that is one of the main reasons why the second wave of the women's- MT (00:22:54): Oh, yeah. I think absolutely. I mean, I experienced in slightly different way, because I was not in groups that resisted my voice as a woman since in the New review that I was organizing, that did not happen. But I did when feminism began, when it dawned on me, although as I said, I have been doing proto feminist organizing in terms of students’ rights and maids’ rights and things like that, I realized that this was a way that I could experience and influence change through my own situation as opposed to working with other oppression. So that is what was important to me. It sort of transferred all those things that I felt in terms of the Civil rights movement and the anti-war movement in a way, because in a way, I was not going to get directed. SM (00:24:04): I know there has been some books recently written saying that women were very powerful in the Civil rights movement. And that even list of the names, there is books and written about women of the South that were important and so forth. But overall, I think even within the Civil Rights movement, it was a male dominated movement. And that is why I would have loved to talk to Bratt Scott King to- MT (00:24:35): Or Fannie Lou Hamer. I mean, yeah. And Fannie Lou was shifting ahead somewhat. SM (00:24:48): Dorky Hyde was another one. MT (00:24:49): Yeah, Dorky Hyde was their driver. But Fannie Lou was one of the founders of the National Women's Political Caucus. I mean this was... If we go forward here now, we are going forward. I was at Columbia. I left graduate school. I left during the strike because I realized we all went on strike. And I also realized at that point, I did not want to teach. It was very hard at Columbia because the classes were... I do not know when you went through graduate school, but the classes were... SM (00:25:23): I started at (19)72. MT (00:25:25): Well, that is a little beyond, but in (19)68, our class was like 200 or 104 or something. And everybody knew all those people were not going to get jobs, but it was bloated, partly because you could still get out of the draft in graduate school. So graduate school was sort of shocked me because you had to jockey for position and politic to get the attention of professors. And so in any case, I just left. I left in (19)68, I went on strike and did not come back, is what basically happened. Now, did you get your PhD or? No, okay. And I had a 20-page paper that I did not turn in, so I did not get a master's either. But I mean, it is that sort of thing. Who cares? Although later, I think the Masters would have helped. So I left, and then I worked for something called Fax on file for three years, which is a news reference service. I sort of got into journalism that way. Excuse me. And then the magazine started, I had gone off, my boyfriend at the time was teaching in Renovo, and we had gone to stay in France for half a year or something. So I was living there, and that is the time when Miz started. And when I came back, my friend Joanne, who might mention who was the one in Tulu in the [inaudible] had been Gloria. She had gone down to work for Evers campaign, not Neicker but his brother, Charles. And so had met Gloria that way through friends of hers. Pat Darian was her friend. So Gloria had come back. She had had leave Mississippi, basically because her family put too much pressure on her. She just could not deal with it. So she came back and was Gloria's assistant at the time the magazine started. So when I came back from having left Facts on File and been in France, the magazine was starting and Joanne said, come in, because I do not want to do research, and that is what they are going to make me do. So you come in and do that so. SM (00:28:06): What year was this? 19...? MT (00:28:08): I am sorry, excuse me. The magazine's preview, who came out at the end of (19)71 and Volume one, number one came out in July of (19)72. So it was that spring, it was February of (19)72 that I came back and started working for Miz. So I do not know when I was... what Train we were on when I was thinking, oh, the caucus was starting, and the caucus also started that year at (19)71. And so Fannie, that is when I met, and I had gone to Washington briefly after I had worked with Paxon File and worked as a volunteer for the caucus, the National Women's Political Caucus. And that is what I met Fannie Lou. I mean, no, I had seen her before because I had been at the demonstrations in... Where was it? Atlantic City, the Freedom Democratic Party Demonstrations. SM (00:29:20): Yes, (19)64 that was. Right? (19)68. MT (00:29:29): (19)68. SM (00:29:29): No, that was (19)64, because Johnson was not... He did not run the- MT (00:29:30): It was (19)64, right and (19)68 was in Chicago. But I have Pan Lou had been speaking, I mean, I had seen her as an organizer, but I had not met her. And she was part of the caucus finally. So yes, there were these wonderfully strong women who were involved in the Civil Rights movement. And some of them merged into the women's movement in a way that I do not think... I mean, people talk about the women's movement as being white and middle class. Well, it certainly was not on that side of it, on the political. I think what has happened is that because the caucus was involved in politics, you immediately had this impetus to be more inclusive in terms of race and things like that so. And Gloria was always very careful too, about when she went out to speak, she always had a black woman with her as a co-speaker. So that was a kind of influential. SM (00:30:38): How did Gloria Steinem come to this? She had been a Playboy Bunny or once- MT (00:30:45): Well, no, she had done that as a story. She had gone underground as a Playboy Bunny and to write a story for... I do not think it was for New York, although she worked for New York Magazine at that point. She had gotten radicalized by the, which I think many people did, by the abortion movement in New York State. New York State decriminalized abortion, I think before a lot of other places. And she had already been sort of involved in terms of... Well, she had been a supporter, Caesar Chavez and the farm workers, but she covered the debates in law Albany about abortion, which were completely outrageous because there were not any women who were testifying about the need to decriminalize these. So there were speak outs that were organized and things like that. And that was really what she was doing. And then she started writing about women's issues for New York. And then people wanted the magazine of the... There was talk about doing a feminist magazine. And so she had meetings in her house with a lot of different editors and different writers and different activists. And that is how Miz began. SM (00:32:26): And that is her brainchild on there. MT (00:32:29): Pretty much. There were other people, Susan Brown Miller had been working at one. SM (00:32:32): Oh, I interviewed her. MT (00:32:35): She had been working at... Well, there had been a sit-in at Ladies Home Journal that Susan had been involved in. So there were different things coming together. But yes, I mean Leddy Pilger, she had written this book called How to Make It In A Man's World, but she was involved in the start of the caucus and had been sort of becoming more feminist. And Pat Carine was editor of McCall's at this point. She had been an editor at Look, so she had sort of a hard news... Not hard news, but a featuring news background as well as women's... And she was very interested. So she and Gloria sort of got together to be the two... SM (00:33:25): When you had just finished your undergraduate years and you were heading off to grad school, (19)66, that was also the year that the Feminine Mystique was written by- MT (00:33:36): Was it (19)66 or did she do it? No, I guess it was, yeah. SM (00:33:44): I have got down here. (19)66 was an important year because in 66, the Feminist Mystique was written and. MT (00:33:50): Feminine Mystique, yeah. SM (00:33:56): Yeah, and I also know that some of the women that were involved in the formation of the National Organization for Women were people like Paul Murray and- SM (00:34:03): Organization for women. MT (00:34:03): Right. SM (00:34:03): People like Pauli Murray and Shirley Chisholm. Well, Shirley was not involved in National Organization for Women, I do not think, but Pauli Murray certainly was and so was Aileen Hernandez, who you could still talk to, although you are done with your interviews, but- Aileen who? MT (00:34:19): Hernandez, H-E-R-N-E... I do not know. I think she sort of... I interviewed her for the [inaudible] Book. She was the second president of NOW, and she is a Black woman who still is an organizer in San Francisco. SM (00:34:38): Oh, wow. MT (00:34:39): So- SM (00:34:39): I have interviewed 22 people. MT (00:34:40): Yeah, I know. I can get you her email if you want. SM (00:34:46): Yeah. MT (00:34:46): Then you could just ask her some questions- SM (00:34:49): I am going to be out in San Francisco. I am done with the interviews, but I continue to have them, some people that I contacted a long time ago, or now contact- MT (00:35:01): Yeah, I think she still will. I mean, she is getting up there. SM (00:35:06): How important was that book? MT (00:35:08): To me, I did not even know about it. SM (00:35:10): Okay. You did not know about it? MT (00:35:12): No, but it was very important to a group of people who felt trapped in that role. I am a little bit younger and definitely was not trapped in that role. I mean, I certainly went through periods of domesticity, but I knew about it later. I met Betty when the caucus was forming and she was a little bit antagonistic about the magazine, about Bella and Gloria. Bella was also involved in the caucus formation, so there was a little tension there. I think Betty and Bella made peace at the end of their lives, but those are two strong personalities. SM (00:36:15): Oh, yeah. Definitely. MT (00:36:18): Barbara Jordan was very important too, to the- SM (00:36:22): Oh, yeah. MT (00:36:23): ...to the women's movement. Bella and Shirley, you can see in my book, they collaborated on childcare. It was so interesting. You should read the interviews in that book that I did with Marco Politi, who was Bella's aid. Because they just failed, there was legislation dealing with women's issues that just sailed through Congress at a great rate in the early (19)70s. SM (00:36:56): And that is due mainly to the- MT (00:37:00): Yeah, to Bella and to Shirley. I am trying to think if there are other people. There were some other congresswomen who were... SM (00:37:08): Yeah, Shirley came to our campus. I met her. I have a lot of pictures of her when she was there. MT (00:37:17): They had very strong voices. And it was a sort of... But they were stopped on some issues. The main one being that I can... Well, the RA of course, I mean, it sailed through Congress, but then it was stopped in the States, but also childcare, because Nixon vetoed it. That is I think, a very important event, because had he not vetoed that bill, it was set up to not just provide childcare for poor people, but to set a structure that would have involved middle class women as well and I am sure would have become... SM (00:37:59): Why did he veto it? Was he- MT (00:38:01): Socialist. It was communist plot. SM (00:38:01): Okay, so he was actively anti- MT (00:38:08): I mean, I do not think he believed that. I think partly, it was political. It was catering to... Maybe he did believe it. I do not know. But that is what the anti-childcare... You do not want the government bringing up your children, which of course, not what was going to happen but- SM (00:38:28): Hey, with all the criticisms they have of Richard Nixon as a president, he was much more liberal than people realized. MT (00:38:34): Well, that is right. SM (00:38:34): ...particularly on a lot of the social issues. And of course, his international firm in reaching out to China, no matter what you say, that was excellent. Some people I have interviewed have said that was only the major happenings of- MT (00:38:50): Oh, I think so. I went to- SM (00:38:52): ...and yet he destroyed it all by what he did in the- MT (00:38:56): Well, but I mean, he was also not trustworthy. Even the childcare thing proves that. SM (00:39:04): Yeah. MT (00:39:05): I went to China in 1978 with a group of journalists. It was soon enough after that, it was right after the Gang of Four fell. SM (00:39:15): Oh yes. Yeah. MT (00:39:16): So it was a really interesting period. Anyway. SM (00:39:19): What happened in the early (19)70s that created the second wave in the women's movement? MT (00:39:25): Well, there were these- SM (00:39:25): [inaudible] as a boomer- MT (00:39:25): Go ahead. SM (00:39:28): When you look at boomers, I have to preface this by saying that boomers are those more between (19)46 and (19)64. But I also include, after interviewing so many people, people that I consider having the spirit and the role modeling that many of the people between 35 and 45 have of the boomers. So really, when I say boomer, I am talking about in terms of mentality. MT (00:39:56): Right. SM (00:39:57): And time wise. Have you been pleased with the way these boomers have actually carried on the women's movement? We are today into the third wave of some... It is a two-part question. What happened in 19- MT (00:40:14): (19)70. SM (00:40:14): What happened in the early (19)70s for the second wave to start? And when and why did the third wave start in the (19)90s? Because a lot of criticism today of the third wave is kind of isolated. You do not see them out there and as visible as you saw the second wave. MT (00:40:34): Well, I mean, I would say the second wave, there were two strains, and I am sure Joe will have told you this, Freeman, because she writes about it, I think. There was a group that was organized around women's rights that basically came out of the Kennedy Commission. There was a commission that Kennedy formed on women's rights, which was a basic commission on the status of women that did a study of women's rights. And a lot of the early NOW people and WEAL, Women's Equity Action League is another important one, the people that founded NOW, some of them were commissioners or staff people on that commission. There is a woman named Catherine East who was at the Women's Bureau for years and had been involved in that commission. And she is someone who collected data forever and ever until it came to the Bush administration who had started throwing out that capacity of the labor department to produce data that supported job actions and things like that. So there was all that going on in sort of legislative women's rights angle. And then there was the group of the more radical feminists that came out of the anti-war and Civil Rights movement, who came out more of a protest movement. And Joe would consider herself part of that as Robin Morgan, all sorts of people. And that was another. And so those two groups sometimes on a couple of issues were a little antagonistic. One of the only one I remember is that there was a move to stop for sterilization among especially Latina women in New York. And some NOW people were against that, because they thought part of it was a waiting period before you could sterilize a woman. And that was too close to the limitations they were putting on abortion. So there were certain clashes. But basically there were two very strong segments that gave a sort of legal and street cred to the women's movement, that was quite strong. And that was all going on in the (19)70s. That is when [inaudible] had its heyday. And you can see from the letters that when we started publishing, people from all over the country said, "I thought I was the only person who felt this way." SM (00:43:44): It has happened many times. MT (00:43:47): Just astonishing. So there was this whole untapped reservoir feeling, which I think was organized during that time. And then what happened? I mean, I will just go on, but you can stop me and ask questions. I do not think there was, or at least I do not see it as a sort of stop and start thing. What I see is a lot of people organizing less in national groups, but in more local things or around particular issues. I mean, for instance, in the women's movement here in the United States, rape was an important issue. In England, it was more organized around domestic violence, but they were both sort of against violence against women and those cross fertilized. But people became... As opposed to in some multi-issue organization, they would start rape crisis centers, or they would start domestic violence centers, or they would work for gay rights. And then there was a whole thing where all those things were brought together in a national way, was at the Houston Conference, which was in 1977, which Bella got government funding for. SM (00:45:16): I have a book on at that conference. [inaudible] MT (00:45:26): So that is what I think happened. I think there was a lot of just people and Black women would organize, and Latina women would organize. And I mean, I think it was sort of a natural thing when people started directing their energies to more specific issues. And as far as I am concerned, it was all part of the women's movement. I that we always saw it as that. And there was the campus, a lot of women's studies was a big center. SM (00:46:07): Yeah. It is interesting. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, who was one of the main people, one of the reasons why the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass, I think it was 35 states passed it, but you need 38. MT (00:46:24): Yeah. It was ridiculous. I mean, when we started [inaudible] we said it will be passed within a month or two. It will be ratified. SM (00:46:33): It was not passed in Ohio, because I remember my former boss who just passed away, who was one of the leaders of the Ohio movement, she just about cried. MT (00:46:43): I think it was ratified and then it was taken back or something, I think that is what- SM (00:46:48): I do not know. I remember the vote was... And I worked at OU at the time, and she was listening to it on the radio from Columbus. And I can remember when she came out, she broke down, because she- MT (00:46:59): Well, it was just- SM (00:46:59): ...just spent two years on it. MT (00:47:01): It was shocking, because it seemed so basic. And as I said, it had gone through, the only hitch of going through Congress was the labor movement, who did not want to give up protections. I mean the shorter hours for women and things like that. But once that was worked through- SM (00:47:23): So the criticisms of the women's movement today is that people try to compare it to the way it was in the (19)70s where- MT (00:47:32): It was a national- SM (00:47:36): ...there were protests. They were unified with many other groups. It could be the anti-war groups, the civil rights groups, the gay and lesbian groups, the environmental groups. There seem to be- MT (00:47:47): More culture. SM (00:47:48): ...in protest, a unity amongst all these groups. Now, today, even when I am talking to lesbian leaders, it is isolated. We do not see the groups together. They are into their own thing. They are not working together. I am not sure they might be working together, as someone said in Congress, but they are certainly not being visible together. MT (00:48:14): No, they are not visible in the same way. They are not visible in the same way as a sort of protest movement. Maybe that is because... Partly it is because they are so successful in changing minds, at least in terms of women's movement. But there are certainly... I am trying to think of where... There is a lot, I mean, there are other kinds of campus actions. Well, throughout this whole period, there are things like Take Back the Night marches, which is something that certainly still motivates younger feminists. SM (00:49:00): And what is the purpose of that? We have it every year on our campus [inaudible]. But what is it, these people are reading this. A lot of people believe that it is because those people were murdered up in Canada. MT (00:49:15): No, it was not really that. Anyway- SM (00:49:17): A lot of people at Westchester University thinks that is why it happened. So they are misinformed. MT (00:49:21): Well, I mean, I do not connect it. Certainly that was a big issue, but mostly it was because of predatory people on campuses that were... Take Back the Night was, women should feel safe walking through their own campus. I mean, there was a whole issues about acquaintance rape that were developed during the (19)70s and (19)80s. And so I mean, there was more of that impetus than the Canada one, I think. SM (00:50:15): Yeah. And another big issue was that pill that college students were- MT (00:50:20): Yeah, the date rape. SM (00:50:21): Yeah, date rape. MT (00:50:23): Pill. SM (00:50:23): And they would knock a female out. And that was big in Westchester, because two guys did it and they were caught. I mean, they were nice guys. Did not think they were not very ice. MT (00:50:37): Yeah, I know. SM (00:50:41): Their parents found out about their two sons and boy they were gone. MT (00:50:46): So there are those issues that I think motivate younger women. And I think the abortion issue is one that is now things that younger women took for granted are now coming into play again. SM (00:51:04): One female leader told me in an interview, and I will not mention the name, she said, she will visit the National Organization for Women Office now. And all she will see, as far as the literature is concerned, is literature on abortion, literature on aids, literature on was the third one, reproductive rights or something like that. And a lot of the issues centering on equal pay, being hired like a man is high. The issues that were many times front and center in the women's movement, do not seem to be like- MT (00:51:48): Well, I do not think that that is exactly true. Not with that particular issue. Because of the woman who brought suit, Congress had to overturn the Supreme Court ruling on, why am I forgetting her name? The equal pay thing. And then now there is currently a push to, there is an equal pay law that is in Congress now. That is a big thing. So I think that issue, but I think probably that is always been true of now that they have been more on sort of legalistic and abortion front than they have been active and effective on... SM (00:52:32): And this same person was very critical of an organization, because they did not even deal with the issue of pornography. MT (00:52:42): No. SM (00:52:43): They let it ride. I mean, there is nothing, that you would only ever see them... MT (00:52:47): But yeah, that was not there. Again, there were anti porn feminist groups. There was a clash between free speech feminists and anti porn feminists that we certainly documented in [inaudible]. There was a cover that said one woman's pornography is another woman's erotica. I mean, yeah, I mean that there was active kinds of... SM (00:53:18): See, another thing that came out too, you are dealing with different ethnic groups. Because I think [inaudible] has done a great job in that area, because I had looked at the literature and I see people of color from the get go. MT (00:53:30): Absolutely. But that is not seen as- SM (00:53:32): Yeah. But genetic colon, I think in one of the early folks, sister president, she talked about the pressures within her own African American community. When someone would ask her, this is when she is president of Stone, would ask her, well, what cause are you really identified with, are you really one of us, which is being the African American issues of racism? Or are you a feminist? Are you a African American first or a feminist first? And then there was a whole issue of the gay and lesbian. Where do you fall on that? Because she had dealt with some issues with the school on that. So she felt conflicted over the first two. And from her peers. Is that a pretty common pressure? MT (00:54:19): I think it is. Although how ridiculous is that? I mean, the core issue are I mean, they should be the tightest coalition. So that exists. And they have been in various times. But I certainly think that Genetical and many other Black women have felt that pressure. And it is one of the reasons that Gloria was so tried to be so careful about having two people out there. But certainly the women's movement has been criticized often as being a Lilly white movement. And as I said, it just was not. SM (00:55:01): When I first started this project, and I mentioned doing a dual book on the Boomer generation, that is about white men, is not it? I have perceptions of boomers as being white men and white women, but not, and no, it is everybody. And so I try, Native American, you name it. MT (00:55:21): You talked to LaDonna too, did not you? SM (00:55:21): I have talked to LaDonna. MT (00:55:21): So that is good. SM (00:55:21): Unbelievable. What a great- MT (00:55:21): And she was one of the founders of the caucus too. SM (00:55:31): Yeah. In fact, she is coming to, she is fighting cancer, and I probably should not review that, but I interviewed her and depends on her health will depend upon her coming back east this summer, because they have started the [inaudible] Center and I think at Indiana, no, not Indiana, California, University of Pennsylvania. And I said, if she comes back, I want to take her to lunch. But I have not heard. But what a great person. MT (00:56:05): Well, and also the Cherokee woman, why cannot I remember her? SM (00:56:10): You mean [inaudible]? MT (00:56:12): No. I will think of her name. SM (00:56:15): Wilma Manquel? MT (00:56:16): Wilma. Yeah, Wilma. I mean, she was a very good friend of Gloria's and lovely woman. And Ladonna's daughter is an organizer. SM (00:56:28): Yes. And I talked to her husband, Fred Harris too. I mean, even though they are divorced, they are still close as anything. What began, this might be a little repetitive, but what began as a battle for equal pay, an equal status of all women in American life, in the area of jobs going to college, sports, leadership roles, politics? Why did the following issues become so forceful when now is organized? And [inaudible] Magazine came out and I talk about the abortion rights and the Roby Wade of (19)73 and the ERA of (19)74, which I mentioned earlier, then reproductive rights and certainly all the isms, were very important to now. And certainly lesbian rights became important as well, gay rights. Why did those take center stage? MT (00:57:31): Well, I think they took center stage, because they were easy to grasp. I think when the caucus was founded, one of the arguments that Bella and Gloria had with Betty is whether to include an anti-violence plank, an anti-war plank? And Gloria and Bella won that argument. So part of the organizing foundation of the caucus was, which had always been a strong part of women's movement since Women's Strike for Peace, was that kind of group. But I think the sort of more simple, or even symbolic, if you think of it that way, of the ERA, were easy to organize. And abortion touched everyone's life. I mean, people remembered, if you are my age, many people went for back alley abortions. So that was really a strong issue. But then I think the issues of domestic violence and violence against women in pornography and those issues emerged as something that the women's movement was deeply concerned about. And then international feminism was at the end of the, basically, I mean it had been around all the time, but basically at the end of the (19)80s became very important. And then- SM (00:59:11): Robin Warren wrote a book on that. MT (00:59:13): Robin did, and Bella was very involved in international families. And Robin worked, I mean, she did, sisterhood was global, which was the anthology. And then that brought in development issues and environmental issues worldwide for women. And that is a very strong strain of women's movement today. SM (00:59:43): When you look at all these, the progression movement women have gone through in the, I would say (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, and right through today, and think of the women who were the mothers of the generation, the boomer generation, 17 million from 1946 after the war ended, to 1960, early (19)60s. MT (01:00:07): Excuse me. SM (01:00:08): These issues, many of them probably were not even being discussed by them, meant like Phyllis Schlafly says, "What is wrong with raising children and being fulfilled as a mother?" I mean, that was the way it was back then. And she says, feels her greatest accomplishment was her kids and being there for her husband, despite all of her accomplishments as a writer, as a lawyer, as she will go back to those two things. MT (01:00:33): Yeah, that is ridiculous. SM (01:00:35): Yeah. But you see, she said she speaks for a lot of women. But so you have the conflict where you read a book and say that most women were not fulfilled in the (19)50s, but they just could not express it. And they raised the kids, but they were very unhappy and probably would have divorced, but they kept together. MT (01:00:57): No, I do not think most women would say that. I do not think that is true. I think a lot of women were, my mother certainly never felt unfulfilled. And Gloria has always said that raising a human being is probably the most challenging job in the world. I mean, I think the thing is that it helps if fathers get involved too. And that is the real push. And I think it is happening. I mean, my nephew is a much different person by far than his father's generation, in terms of what he expects out of his life and the kinds of things he does in his marriage. SM (01:01:50): One of the things kids would say is the father was always away and the mom was always at home. So they were closer to the mom, obviously. MT (01:01:54): Yeah. SM (01:01:58): Because the father was away making a living. Now you see a reverse where the husband might be at home. A lot of things, a lot of changes are going on. MT (01:02:11): Yeah. SM (01:02:11): Definitely. MT (01:02:12): And that generation has completely different expectations. So I think that is very interesting. SM (01:02:18): Some say that, I always use that term some, because I have interviewed so many people, that Betty [inaudible], Gloria Steinem are mainstream feminists and they are really not radical [inaudible]. Few things here. What is the difference between a radical feminist and a mainstream feminist? Because people that are... SM (01:02:38): There you go. MT (01:02:38): Well- SM (01:02:38): Hold on. MT (01:02:38): Okay. SM (01:02:39): Let me turn this over here. And so you are doing both. I have been doing two takes halfway through first 100 and I only did one take. MT (01:03:05): Well, I do not think that is a correct analysis. I mean, I know people that have that analysis. Mostly they are academic feminists, I think. I would say that, I mean, Gloria's certainly a radical. I mean, I am less sure about Fredan. I was never that close to her. And I think it is probably not true. I mean, as I have indicated, she had to be talked into the anti-war plank. She had a problem at the beginning with having the women's movement involved with lesbian rights. So I think that was a sort of different frame of mind. But I think Gloria has always been fairly radical. Across the board, I do not think she would define herself as one thing or another, but she is open to any number of issues. So I do not see this clear divide between, I see it at the beginning as I described how they arose from any more movement and the more women's rights movement. But I do not see it going forward. I mean, I think once you get involved in the particular issues of feminism, maybe there are radical approaches and there are legal approaches. But a lot of those work together. I mean, I think it is more in sort of academic theoretical circles that you get this kind of insistence on the division and what is mainstream and what is known. There is always who is known and who is called upon and who is lesser now? SM (01:04:56): Where would you place from different era here now, because I have been from an academic environment, and I know that people have talked about it in some of our programs, not in any of my interviews, but there is a difference between mainstream and radical. And where would you place the following people, people that we grew up with and know historically, Bella, Shirley Chisholm, Molly Yard, Tricia Ireland, Eleanor Smeal, Robin Morgan, Mary Daley, who just passed away recently. Jermaine Greer, who I met six months ago. MT (01:05:41): Jermaine is a trick. I mean, she is gone. SM (01:05:46): And so then of course, Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton and... MT (01:05:48): I do not know- SM (01:05:48): And Helen Gurley Brown and Susan Brown Miller. And you have got Rebecca Walker and LaDonna Harris, Carol Gilligan and Winona Rider. MT (01:06:02): And Alice Walker. SM (01:06:05): Yeah. So there is a lot of different ones there. MT (01:06:07): But I do not know, I could try to figure out how they think of themselves or how they rose, what strain they came out of. But I mean, certainly Robin came out of a radical strain. But I cannot really define people that way. I mean, Dorothy Hyde came out of a very sort of traditional women's organization kind of place. But I think tactically things work at different times, different tactics work at different times, which is how I would approach whatever issue I was interested in. I mean, when Gloria speaks, she tries to tell her audience, do one outreaches act today. I mean, that is your form of organizing, which makes you think. But I mean, I think basically what is appropriate in terms of, and I think that although it is a sort of mainstream outcome, the idea that Bella was able to get money from Congress to put on the largest, actually the largest democratically elected conclave that there ever has been in this country, which is what the Houston Conference was, is pretty radical. I mean, it is not radical if you define radical as something other than electoral politics. And then if you look at the agenda- And then if you look at the agenda that came out at the Houston conference, it is completely inclusive. SM (01:08:14): You might even say the same thing though, the way you are describing it here is what people felt in 1848 with Elizabeth... MT (01:08:14): That is right. SM (01:08:20): Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, who believed that they were connected to the hip, when in reality they had tremendous disagreements later in life. I think they split at some juncture. MT (01:08:32): I am not sure. I do not know that they split. SM (01:08:36): I forget what the issue was, but there was a big one later on. MT (01:08:40): Well, there was a big issue with black women, with the race issue. Because at one point, I do not know who it was... SM (01:08:42): Frederick Douglass was very close to Elizabeth Cady Stanton. MT (01:08:42): Yeah. SM (01:08:56): And of course then Susan B. Anthony was coming from Rochester and that is where [inaudible] had the North star, the newspaper. MT (01:09:05): Yeah. SM (01:09:07): Maybe what you are saying is that we are seeing it is a different era, a different time. So how you define people is very difficult because one person's radical is another person's mainstream. MT (01:09:26): Or people can be mainstream and radical in their life. SM (01:09:31): Yeah. MT (01:09:31): Whatever. At whatever point one tactic works and another does not. SM (01:09:43): Yeah. MT (01:09:43): That is how I think of myself. I do not give myself those labels. SM (01:09:45): When you look at the women's movement, of course conservative women are, we all know Phyllis Schlafly, but a lot of people do not know others. MT (01:09:56): Well, there is Sarah Palin and... SM (01:10:01): Yeah. Well, there is Sarah Palin. The ones that I have listed here are more recent. Of course, Phyllis Schlafly, Gertrude Himmelfarb is older. Sarah Palin, Margaret Thatcher from England, Michelle Easton. MT (01:10:17): I do not know. SM (01:10:17): She does the Clare Boothe Luce Institute at Clare Boothe Luce And then of course, there is Ann... MT (01:10:23): Brockman. SM (01:10:25): Yes. Brockman. And then you got Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingram, [inaudible] Buchanan and I cannot even read the last person. But yeah, Ms. Brockman. MT (01:10:42): It is nuts. These women are nuts. SM (01:10:44): When the women's movement looks at them. Is it like the Black caucus from Washington looking at the JC Watts and the other John who was a conservative? Is it right to eliminate a group because of their politics or a women's... MT (01:11:03): Yeah. Yeah. The reason it is right is that they are not champions of other women. And in that sense, they are not feminists. If you do not support services for women or equal pay, equal rights for women or childcare, I do not know how you can call yourself a feminist. I think Sarah Palin probably does, but as far as I am concerned, it is mislabeling. And I have to quote, going again, said, "We are never in favor of Eva Braun becoming head of state." SM (01:11:46): Yeah. MT (01:11:46): It is not a matter of gender at that point. It is a matter of outlook and interest. SM (01:12:01): And a lot of people used the black caucus in Washington as the best, especially when JC Watts was there, was very popular. MT (01:12:10): Right. SM (01:12:13): Former [inaudible] star. They would not get him the time of day because he was a conservative. And the other guy was Franks, was his name, the guy that proceeded him, he was conservative too. But that stirs some of the college... I work with college students and why not be inclusive even though they are... MT (01:12:32): Well, because their aims are different than yours. SM (01:12:34): Yeah. MT (01:12:36): That is the answer, there are people that have called themselves feminists and have been promoters of Sarah Palin but... SM (01:12:50): I got quite a few more questions and I only got 30 minutes to go here. What are the main accomplishments of the women's movement up to the third wave? And what has the third wave really done to add to the movement? And when I am dealing with college students and high school students who do not read their history, in your own words define first wave, second wave, third wave and their accomplishments. MT (01:13:22): I am not quite sure I can, but I can take a stab at some of this. I think a main accomplishment was simply put, when I graduated from college, I could not get a loan in my own name. I had to have my father sign for a Bloomingdale's card. So different pieces of legislation like equal credit legislation and things like that have been very empowering and part of that has to do with economic changes because women were more and more in the workforce. But I think that was certainly part of the women's movement. And the other thing is I think how feminists and others influenced by feminism have brought up their children. I think they are completely different expectations. As we talked about before, probably not all over the country, but between my nephew's generation and he is 30 now, is he 30? He may be older than 30. Well, in any case, he is in his 30s and generations that came before in terms of what gender roles would be. And another enormous contribution I think is the linking of international feminism. So that now... SM (01:15:04): A third wave, is not it? MT (01:15:04): Yeah. I think it came to fruition in the third wave, although I think, as I said, Bella was a big mover of that, and Robin and different people. But at the moment, I edit for the Women's Media Center. Well, you know that... SM (01:15:19): I love your website. MT (01:15:21): Oh, good. SM (01:15:22): I like your logo too. MT (01:15:23): Yeah. SM (01:15:23): Yeah. MT (01:15:25): But I just have a piece that I am going to put up based on an interview with Yanar Mohammed, who is head of a women's rights organization in Iraq. SM (01:15:36): Wow. MT (01:15:36): And we know these people. A friend of mine who also writes for me, Shazia Raki, I think her name is, is Secretary General. That is how they title them, of an international organization of parliamentarians, parliamentarians for human rights or something like that. And she is in contact with different women in parliament all over the world. And so we do the organization, Bella organized with men [inaudible], it is not as powerful as it used to be, but it is conceptually organized to promote women's development and the environment. There is this bringing together of those issues because environmental issues impact women so much more directly than men in the developing world. SM (01:17:00): There was the big conference and was it in China couple years ago? MT (01:17:04): It was a couple, being in 1995. SM (01:17:08): Yeah, that was a major... MT (01:17:10): Yeah. And that was the fourth of international conference. So that had been going on since... Mexico City was the first one. And then, oh, in Mexico City and in Europe, one in Europe and one in Africa, and then this one in Beijing, which was the culmination. SM (01:17:30): I think Hillary Clinton went to that, I think. MT (01:17:39): Hillary was there and she still has that message about women's rights, I think. SM (01:17:52): It is interesting about when people try to look at the history. If you look at 1848 Seneca Falls, and I go there every year. I took my dad there before he died, we had a great day there and... MT (01:17:53): It is beautiful for one thing. SM (01:17:57): Yeah, it is a beautiful place. And I go there just to take it all in. I go to Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home to get a feel for the history that took place in that house, which was basically the same and the furniture has gone, the sofa is still there, and the sofa that Frederick Douglass found. MT (01:18:14): Oh, wow. SM (01:18:27): You could feel, I can just feel when I was with my dad, their presence. When you look at the history from 1848 through today, we talk about first wave feminism that began at Seneca Falls. And we talk about the (19)70s, late (19)60s and (19)70s, and then the late (19)90s. But another period was around the prohibition period. MT (01:18:44): Right. The reform period. SM (01:18:46): And I do not know why they do not consider that second wave and then the (19)60s third wave. MT (01:18:52): Well, I think you could, there is a continuum. You are right. Except that there was, after the vote, I think people expected a lot more to happen. So I think the expectations were greater than what happened. And maybe that is why people cut it off. But then Eleanor Roosevelt, she was very instrumental in the commissions on the status of women in the Kennedy Commission. So I would put her as one of the... SM (01:19:30): You wrote several books, you wrote a book on Ms. Magazine, Letters to Ms. MT (01:19:31): Right. SM (01:19:41): I think it is a great book. And what did you learn from writing these books that you did not know before you started? And maybe I will add the book that you just wrote too. MT (01:19:50): Bella. SM (01:19:51): Bella. What surprised you the most when you wrote these books? Because you have a tremendous knowledge already. MT (01:19:59): Yes. I did. I think of the different... Because I did approach them, all of them actually as oral history volumes, that was not so much oral history that it was stories through letters so it was the same kind of thing. And I think what surprised me was the incredibly different ways that people come into consciousness. That is an old women's movement word, but into realizing, into the place where they start interacting with the world as feminists mostly, I have been dealing with feminists. So I think oral history is a powerful tool for that because you find out what is in peoples' background so that was surprising. When I did the Bella book, a lot of the surprising things... Well, I just found out about wonderful collaborations between Bella and Ron Dellums for instance. I had no idea and I just had a wonderful interview with Ron Dellums, who... SM (01:21:10): He is the mayor of Oakland. MT (01:21:13): This is right before he became mayor of Oakland when I interviewed him for that book. But he came into Congress the same year that Bella did. And they had this wonderful, incredibly warm relationship. But he was able to describe in this, it was just a terrific interview. SM (01:21:38): You already wrote a book, you know the experience with Bella and Mr. Dellums and of course we know about Elizabeth Cady... MT (01:21:47): Well, that is interesting. SM (01:21:50): With Douglass. The relationship between a powerful woman feminist with a feminist mind and an African American male... MT (01:21:58): Yeah. That is interesting. SM (01:21:58): Who has a sensitivity to women's issues as well, as issues of racism within his or her own community, I would think that would make a great book. MT (01:22:07): That is interesting. Well, I would like to write another book. So those things are wonderful. The other wonderful interviews I had with the Bella book, for instance, there was one with... SM (01:22:24): Chicken. Yeah. MT (01:22:24): There was one with a man who was a young lawyer with Bella. They were both entering lawyers in this law firm. And I just loved his mind because for us, he just set up the whole feeling of what law was after the second World War and labor law in particular, and the clashes that were going on and the fact that labor people had put off demands during the second World War. And then after the war was over, all this was bubbling forth. And there is another interview I had with Ireland, I cannot remember his first name. He was a journalist basically but he set up the whole sense of how things happened in the (19)50s. SM (01:23:20): Oh, wow. MT (01:23:22): And led into... So just these people with minds that could understand what was happening in social, the same thing you are trying to do, is understand what was happening in social movements. And with that book, those interviews were just astonishing to me because they would just bring in all the trains and make sense of things. SM (01:23:47): See, what comes out of this and the word 'context' comes out of everything. And I have always believed that we do not, I remember African Americans in the (19)70s saying that, "You do not know what it is like, you live in white skin. And whoever hears someone say they understand us, I doubt it. They have not lived like we do." So that is always been the subject that I am very sensitive to. And I do not believe we should be judging people, that is why context is important to understand from their, because they are the ones who live their lives. We did not live their lives. Let me check my time here. MT (01:24:17): It is just quarter after one. SM (01:24:17): Yeah. We got time, you are fine. One other thing, you have probably heard this before... MT (01:24:35): Oh. Of course, Liz. I should say, of course Liz was involved in all of this early (19)70s legislation too, which I... SM (01:24:39): Right. MT (01:24:40): But go ahead. SM (01:24:41): Yeah. And I am going to be talking to her a lot about Watergate and... MT (01:24:44): Oh, that is right. She and Barbara Jordan. SM (01:24:47): Yeah. Talked to her a lot about that. One of the things that I have heard from critics, with some of those conservatives that I mentioned is that some people say that feminists hate men. MT (01:25:03): Yeah, no. SM (01:25:07): And Ann Coulter is actually, we had her on the campus. She is actually a pretty nice person. I think she plays the game when she is on in front of a camera, but when she is behind, when you see her one-on-one, she did not even talk about that stuff. She talks about going to Cornell and it is amazing, her best friends are liberals. MT (01:25:33): Well... SM (01:25:34): Conservatives do not like her that well. They like her when she goes to the conferences and students and everything. But she has a, I know this for a fact because I have had friends in Washington and that her best friends are all liberals. And they chide her, based on the books she is writing. So anyway, let us not talk too much about her, but when you hear that, what do you... MT (01:25:57): Man hating? SM (01:25:58): Yeah. MT (01:26:00): That is always been a charge and that actually was one of the early charges that Betty had against, accused Bella and Gloria being man hating, which was ridiculous. Especially Bella, who had the sweetest, most lovely relationship with Martin that I have ever seen in terms of a married couple. Well, men were in positions of power, in terms of women's goals or in the position of being predators when it comes to issues of violence against women. But that did not mean that feminists had something against individual men or did not welcome men as partners in fighting these issues, as valuable partners in terms of some of these issues, speaking out. SM (01:27:12): It is interesting because Hugh Hefner comes up a lot in some of the conversations, and I believe he supports women's rights. MT (01:27:28): No, he supported his daughter. SM (01:27:28): Yeah. And the thing is, and he has always said that he did Playboy Magazine because it is art. It is artistic and he does not believe it is pornography and the beauty of the body and he is like an artist. And that is a conflict also within some of the people who try to understand though. And then the women, they grew up in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, they want to be looked at not just as an object, but... MT (01:27:59): Right. That is the point. And I do not think it is necessarily pornography either, but it certainly does not respect, the issue is respect. And I think Hefner, the Playboy Foundation tried to give money to all sorts of, to the ERA and to other causes. And did at some point, but to other points, women's groups sometimes rejected those. But I do not think it was a matter... I think it is a matter of respect and you take this man who treats women interchangeably, obviously. Even now, what does he have, three... SM (01:28:34): He was married. MT (01:28:38): Marry someone but there was three, you could not really... SM (01:28:42): Yeah, he got that TV show. MT (01:28:42): Right. SM (01:28:46): Yeah, they are all gone now. MT (01:28:46): Yeah. SM (01:28:49): He said he was going to marry that 25-year-old that broke off the last minute. MT (01:28:53): Whatever. You just cannot, I am sure he loves his daughter and I think he probably did have sympathy for some of these issues. But the basic thing is, I am not a big anti-porn feminist because I think sometimes they take it, the anti-porn people take it too far. But I do agree that people that are involved in pornography and involved in trafficking, mostly women are there against their will, against their economic will. Even if they... SM (01:29:42): The thing that surprises me is how many women today, young women who do pose for... MT (01:29:48): I think that... SM (01:29:49): They have no sensitivity; no knowledge of past history and they do not give a damn. MT (01:29:54): I know. But they are also, and more power to them, much more comfortable with their bodies and with their degrees of sexuality than my generation. So in a way that is all great. SM (01:30:09): Boomer women were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I mentioned that spiritually their people were older. How do Boomer women differ from Generation X and Millennial women who are connected more to the third wave than the second wave? And how important have young Boomers been activism wise since their youth in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Now, the young people in the late (19)60s and (19)70s were coming into their own in their early 20s at the time of the women's movement beginning. And I have always tried to understand it from the well-established writers and thinkers within the women's movement, are they disappointed? In terms of the people that have followed them? And can you compare the generations that have followed, there has been two. Generation X, which at times really could not stand the older generation. MT (01:31:19): Well, 'feminism' became a bad word. But the causes, they certainly clung to the same causes, that same causes define their lives in many ways. So although 'feminism' became a dirty word at beginning in about, well, the (19)80s... SM (01:31:46): When Reagan came in. MT (01:31:46): When Reagan came in and there was a lot of conflict. I think there is a lot of, there was discomfort and certainly young people were uncomfortable being branded as feminists in part because of the charge that feminists hated men and all this stuff. SM (01:32:04): Generation [inaudible]. MT (01:32:05): Yeah, exactly. And occasionally I would go to conferences and there is the wonderful history conference that, I do not know if it is still happening, but the Berkshires conference, which happened every four years and brought together all sorts of wonderful... And I remember a panel there in, it must have been the (19)80s, where there were older academics, feminists saying, "You younger women do not know, you just take everything for granted", blah, blah, blah. And one young woman got up and said, "Is not that what you want?" Which is just a wonderful comment. And of course it is. SM (01:32:58): Yeah. MT (01:32:59): And you cannot help but think, oh, they should know what struggles we went through. But in fact, the idea that the subsequent generations take for granted what you worked for is about the best validation you could think of. SM (01:33:18): Yeah, I think that is really true today for the Millennials. Yeah. They take for granted. But this is my perception, I think they truly care. MT (01:33:28): Oh, yeah. SM (01:33:29): And I believe they are very cognizant of the women's movement. I think women in college today are, I consider them much stronger than the Generation Xers. MT (01:33:39): Before. SM (01:33:39): And I see a link between Millennials and Boomers and with respect to the fact that they want to leave a legacy and make the world better, Boomers wanted to do it sooner and oftentimes without thinking that they want to do it sooner. But Millennials want to do it later, after 40. They want to raise a family. I have done that reading of Hunter Strauss's book on the generations. MT (01:34:07): Mm-hmm. SM (01:34:08): So I look at today's generations in a very positive way. I have had negatives a long time for Generation X. MT (01:34:15): Well, I think maybe the current generation is less affected by the negative feelings about activism, feminism, about things like man hating or things like making... I do not know. I think that could well be that there is this reaction to how aggressive the earlier activists were. SM (01:34:51): We did panels on the Boomer generation and Generation X at our college for two years. And there was a tension in the room between Boomers and they were Boomer faculty members basically and the Generation X students who were the sons and daughters of Boomers. It is interesting. But today, 85 percent of all the college students are the sons and daughters of Generation X people whereas 15 percent are still Boomer kids. But back in those days, in the (19)90s, they were mostly all from the Boomers. And two things came out of it, they were tired of hearing about the nostalgia about what it was like back then. MT (01:35:35): Certainly nostalgia was [inaudible]. SM (01:35:37): Yeah. MT (01:35:37): You cannot... SM (01:35:39): And then the second thing was, "I wish I had lived then." MT (01:35:41): Right. SM (01:35:58): Because you had causes and we had nothing. MT (01:35:58): Well, I think... SM (01:35:58): That was the (19)90s. That is not now. MT (01:35:58): Yeah, it was the (19)90s. But I think it would be hard to replicate the (19)60s. You look at what was happening so quickly, the music and going along with it and the culture. It was... SM (01:36:07): See, the only thing they really had was the anti-apartheid movement which was happening. MT (01:36:08): That is true. SM (01:36:12): That was important. But it was not everything. What does it mean to be a feminist in your own words? And does the women's movement differ from the feminist movement? MT (01:36:26): Oh, I use them interchangeably. Although I suppose you could define them differently. You could define the women's movement, I think people have used it differently having the women's movement be more strictly rights oriented and the feminist movement being more culturally oriented. But I use them interchangeably. And as a feminist, I think my definition of feminist is someone who sees the world through the perspective of women and gender, and understands issues in terms of how it affects women. And it is a champion for women, for empowerment of women. SM (01:37:16): So men can be called feminists. MT (01:37:24): Oh, yeah. Although, probably would have a different perspective than women who were coming at it from their own experience. But yes, I think so. SM (01:37:33): So Frederick Douglass was really a feminist and... MT (01:37:35): And Ron [inaudible] was certainly a feminist. Yes. Yeah. SM (01:37:45): What happened to that era when all activist groups were seen with each other? I think we already talked about this. MT (01:37:50): I think coalitions were hard to maintain, once organizations became established and interested in their own successes and longevity, I think coalitions became more difficult. SM (01:38:12): Would not you think though, the war in Afghanistan and certainly in Iraq, that you would see in Washington? There has been protests, but I have been to one, and I had not seen the signs. I would go by the signs and I also go with the people that are speaking. But to see more anti-war people from feminist groups, certainly the anti-war groups, the African American groups, Native American, Chicano, you name it, Asian groups all together against war. I would think... MT (01:38:52): You would think you would see this in droves. SM (01:38:53): I think when you... Yeah, I do not see it. MT (01:38:56): Well, I think that there is... Well, there is definitely a conflict within feminism in terms of Afghanistan because there is Code Pink and people like Jodie Evans who see no advantage to bad intervention and the [inaudible] majority, Ellie Sniel, people like that would support US actions that would help women in Afghanistan and there are those too. Jodie would argue that it is not really helping in the long run, these are not issues that can be advanced with an occupation force. And Ellie, I think would argue that intervention and empowerment of women in Afghanistan was enormously important. And I do not know where I would come down. I think they are both... But it is interesting that Jodie is... SM (01:40:05): Jodie who? MT (01:40:06): Jodie Evans, her name is, and she is a co-founder of a group called, you should look at it up, at least find it on the web, Code Pink. Code Pink goes and disrupts congressional hearings and everything like that. There is an absolute out of the (19)60s in your face demonstrating group. And Jodie happens to be the board president at the moment of the Women's Media Center. So she works very closely with Gloria, Gloria and Robin and Jane Fonda were founders of the Women's Media Center. So they all work closely together, but they have these different perspectives. SM (01:40:50): Yeah. Jodie. MT (01:40:55): Jodie Evans. Yeah. SM (01:40:56): I think she might be a good interview too. MT (01:40:58): She would be and she is in California most of the time, although she travels around. SM (01:41:08): I contacted Jane Fonda, but I contacted her a long... MT (01:41:10): Yeah, I think Jane probably would not have time. SM (01:41:12): She was with CNN and she was married to Ted Turner. MT (01:41:15): Ted Turner. Well, she is not married to Ted anymore. SM (01:41:17): Yeah. But she just said she was too busy. MT (01:41:22): Well, I think Gloria is involved in her own oral history work at Smith. So I think she probably would have the same reaction. But she is doing all the... SM (01:41:36): Yeah. MT (01:41:40): I think she made that commitment to do it with Smith. SM (01:41:42): Your thoughts on the job that the media has done in covering the movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and I am going to make a few comments here. The media, there is a brand-new book I interviewed a person at Regional College in Philadelphia, just written a book on the media and how covered the (19)60s... filled out and just written a book on the media and how it covered the (19)60s, and the sensationalism was all they cared about as opposed... And it is left lasting images that were really not true because- MT (01:42:13): Like bra burning. SM (01:42:14): Yeah. The image of the media was supposed to always build things up. The- MT (01:42:21): I do not know. I do not know. I mean, I do know that it was always a joke, and Bill said someone would come out with a headline, The Women's Movement Is Dead, almost every year since 1973. SM (01:42:39): Well, just my question here is your thoughts on the job that the media's done in covering the movement in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s in particular, and maybe even beyond. Did they concentrate on the sensational or the unusual, or what was really happening every day? I use the examples here, the bra burning in Atlantic City, what we saw about people being nude at Woodstock, which was really a minority, if you really know- MT (01:43:03): Well, and you know that the bra burning never took place. SM (01:43:05): Yes. I know that did not take place. There were maybe about 20 people that were new that [inaudible]. It was not very many. MT (01:43:10): Yeah. And they were covered in mud. So, what the hell? SM (01:43:16): Yeah. The drugs. The drugs at the Summer of Love in San Francisco. Of course, I put in here the song that was very popular at the time in the (19)60s, Love the One You're With, which was an image that free sex no matter what is happening. The communal movement where there were lots of sex. That is kind of the perception that people had. Just your thoughts on what the media has done for the women's movement and for the movers and on the events of that period, were they well upfront? Were they honest, or were they... MT (01:43:55): I think there were certainly journalists who were absolutely wonderful. I mean, Eileen Shanahan comes to mind, who was an early... She was a Times reporter who did mostly economic stuff. But then she started covering the women's movement. She for the Times, and then Shabel Shelton for the Washington Times at that point, which was completely different than the Washington Times now, or Washington... the other paper besides those. These women were absolutely wonderful in terms of covering the women's movement. I think that the press, the media was completely essential to the spreading of feminism. The fact that they were there and they were covering these issues was very important. On the other hand, as I said, there is a tendency in the media that said all this or all that. That is why you always had these feminism is dead sign. There was a news forecaster who when Ms. came out, said, "I would give it six months." SM (01:45:05): Oh, my God. MT (01:45:06): And we got him to come back five years later and do an ad for us. It was Reasoner... Was it, Reasoner? SM (01:45:09): Harry Reasoner? MT (01:45:17): I think so. Who did an ad for us. It said, "I gave it six months. I was wrong." I mean, he said it so... SM (01:45:19): That is an interesting anecdote. MT (01:45:27): Yeah. I think I must have it in the... SM (01:45:28): Even on ABC, Harry Reasoner. MT (01:45:28): I think it was Reasoner. You know- SM (01:45:33): He was also 60 Minutes. MT (01:45:35): Yeah. But... Oh. SM (01:45:35): He did both. MT (01:45:37): Maybe. I wonder if it was someone else. Anyway, it is in the Ms. book. You can find it. So, I am up to Mines. Now at the Women's Media Center, a lot of what we are doing is identifying sexism in the media, which is surely easy to find. But mostly that is not the main... I mean, part of it is mainstream media, but part of it is talk radio and the cable stations. There is all these horrendous stories that people will watch out for and send in to the Women's Media Center and then it is spotlighted on the thing. SM (01:46:22): You know, it was Eddie Hoffman was very outspoken when he did all these crazy things with the hippies. He says, " You got to do crazy stuff to be able to get the media to cover you." That is the way you do it. MT (01:46:36): Yes. I suppose that is true. But the women, there was absolutely coverage. I remember when I was volunteering for the caucus in (19)71, and Liz Carpenter was Press Secretary of Ladybird Johnson and very involved in... She was one of the founders of the caucus. She was so media savvy. This is during the Nixon administration. There was an appointment in the Supreme Court to fill, and I think it was Liz's idea. She said, "We will put out a list of women who are qualified." That was picked up all over the place. It became an issue. It became something that Nixon had to consider. He did not do it then. But then Sandra Day O'Connor came on, not that far, I mean, during the Reagan administration. So, there was a way of... That is before. The media has been now much more dispersed. But there was a way of capturing, if you knew how things worked, and certainly Yappy did. SM (01:47:46): Oh, my God. MT (01:47:48): And Liz Carpenter did, in a much more mainstream way. I mean, there were- SM (01:47:52): [inaudible] dollar bills [inaudible] MT (01:47:55): There were ways of using that. SM (01:47:59): You keep making reference to the media caucus. What was that, the women's caucus? What was that? MT (01:48:06): What? The women's media... SM (01:48:06): Yeah. Caucus. MT (01:48:09): Oh, no. There is the Women's Media Center, which is what I work for now, which is something that is been founded in the last six years by Robin, Gloria and Jane Fonda. There were the... Oh, the National Women's Political Caucus was what I was referring to before, which Bella, Shirley, Betty Friedan... I am forgetting someone. SM (01:48:38): And that started what year? MT (01:48:39): (19)71. SM (01:48:41): And the basic purpose was? MT (01:48:43): Get women appointed and elected to office. SM (01:48:46): Very good. MT (01:48:47): And it still exists, although it had chapters in every state at one point. SM (01:48:55): Mm-hmm. How we doing time-wise there? Is it going to quarter of there? MT (01:49:00): It is 20 up. SM (01:49:01): 20 up? I have to leave in 10 minutes because she is only five miles away. But she is at Park Place. It is not that far. MT (01:49:09): It is hard, but... Well, you probably will not run into traffic at this point. SM (01:49:15): Well, I back to 9A and just go back that way. MT (01:49:17): You can just turn on 96th Street. Is that- SM (01:49:24): Yeah, I got my instructions. It is pretty easy once you get back on 9A. MT (01:49:28): So, you are going downtown, right? SM (01:49:28): Yeah. MT (01:49:31): On the West Side Highway, basically. SM (01:49:33): Yeah. She is on 34th, and I do not know... She is at Two Park Place. MT (01:49:38): Well, Park Place is all the way downtown. But what you will do is just, you can get on the highway right here at 96th Street. SM (01:49:47): Yeah. She said there is a place to park right across the street. MT (01:49:49): Oh, good. SM (01:49:57): I guess... I have got three more pages here. But in your own words, can you define female leadership? How does it differ from male leadership, in your opinion? The third part of this is, do women want to be treated as equals to men by securing the qualities that men have in order to succeed? A lot of people, doctors have said, "Well, if they take on the characteristics of men, they will die as early as men do." MT (01:50:25): Or have nothing to offer the world in terms of a different style of being. I would say that, in my experience, women's organizations have are very different. I spent from (19)72 to (19)91... So, what is that? Almost two decades at Ms. It was non-hierarchical in many, many ways, in many frustrating ways for some people, for some things. But it was also empowering because if you wanted to take something on, you took it on. There is a different model of leadership. And it still exists. I can see it in terms of... I just finished doing a lot of interviews for the National Council for Research on Women, which did a conference and now is doing a follow-up report on the concrete ceiling, they call it, that Black women reach at the top of corporations. The women in these corporations talk about a very different style of leadership that women have in the corporations, which it is like the toughest thing you can think of because that is the most structured kind of thing, but a kind of difference, inclusiveness. There are so many different... It is so interesting, the kinds of differences they have identified. Some of them work to women's disadvantage; some to their advantage. That leadership thing, I think, works to advantage. Women are becoming very valuable to corporations that are trying for a global market because they are used to negotiating and in different ways. But also, women do not hook on to mentors in the way that men do. Men are very comfortable using their relationships to advance, and women want relationships with much more trust and sort of much deeper things. It is fascinating. I mean, I think there are lots of gender differences, and I do not think we would want to just emulate men. But I think it is a question. I think when women got into positions of leadership in a situation where men were the norm, that is when things like Queen Bees would emerge because that is how you could function. But I also think if women are at a critical mass, then there is a chance of changing the culture. SM (01:53:34): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end? What was the watershed moment? MT (01:53:41): Well, for me, it was like the mid (19)60s. As I said, it was the Civil Rights Movement before even the anti-war movement was the big important... SM (01:53:55): I am running at a time here even on this. MT (01:53:59): You can always follow- up with stuff on an email, if you want, too, if there is something you need to fill in. SM (01:54:02): I got time for one more question. MT (01:54:02): Yeah. [inaudible]. SM (01:54:02): [inaudible] here. (19)60s, when did it end, in your opinion? MT (01:54:20): I do not know. I never sort of had that sense of things ending and beginning, I think, because I was involved with Ms. and I just saw things. But I guess the (19)60s for me and for the women's movement carried on through (19)70s because there were things like the Houston Conference, and I guess you would have to say Reagan. I mean, you would have to say that and the fact that Ted Kennedy's appeal did not make it in terms of... All sorts of things. SM (01:54:56): How important role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, in your opinion? MT (01:54:56): I think more important than setting up the... Simone Bella, for instance, organized the whole West Side in terms of peace movement. I think more in setting up the atmosphere where being anti-war was a respectable position. With Women's Strike for Peace, and those were... The whole Mother's Movement Against Strontium-90 and stuff like that that that represented. I think they were very important. But I think that the impetus that ended the war was the draft, and that certainly affected men more than women. SM (01:55:49): Let us see here. I guess I will end my last question. Hope we get enough time to do this. Question about due the divisions a tremendous division that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between Black and white, sometimes male and female, gay and straight, certainly the tremendous divisions over the war in Vietnam, those who served those who did not, those who were against the war and for the war, do you think this boomer generation is going to go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healed? MT (01:56:26): I do not think- SM (01:56:29): Due to the tremendous divisiveness that took place at the time, and do you think this is an issue and it is playing a part in the divisiveness that we are seeing in our society today, the tremendous divisions and the-the culture wars that we are seeing over and over again where we cannot seem to get over the (19)60s? MT (01:56:54): Well, I think that the culture wars were manipulated by the right. I think the issues that the right pulled, certainly the women's issues that they pulled to organize around, a lot of that was a gift to the right of issues that it could organize around. I am not sure that those were organically grew on their own. I think they were manipulated. But in terms of larger issues, I think there is a whole different feeling about soldiers that are in Iraq and in Afghanistan than there ever was about soldiers that were in Vietnam to the discredit, I suppose, of the anti-war movement back in the (19)60s, that you did not have a lot of sympathy for the people fighting it, which I think is completely different now. I mean, you clearly have an understanding that whether you are anti-war, whether you are a pacifist or not, that it is not the soldiers that are the problem; it is the policy. I think there is that kind of shift in mentality. I do not think the (19)60s anti-war, kind of anti-government... I mean, there is still mistrust of government, God knows. But I mean, I think that has changed with time. SM (01:58:19): So, you do not see healing as a problem within this generation of 70 million due to these tremendous divisions when they were evolving as adults? MT (01:58:19): Who? The boomer- SM (01:58:19): The boomer generation. MT (01:58:19): ...kind of generation? SM (01:58:19): Yeah, the boomers. MT (01:58:49): I do not know. I have lived so much of my life in New York and in one kind of protected, in a way, from a culture that might get mad at me. I go back to the Houston Conference and state meetings that we went to. It was the first time I had ever seen these hordes of right-wing people who did not like me. SM (01:59:14): Yeah. I know Dan Scrubs, when he wrote the book To Heal a Nation, the book on the building of the wall, the goal was mostly to heal the veterans and the lost loved ones and all the Vietnam veterans, but hopefully to begin healing the nation from the divisions of that war. I do not know what role the wall has played in the whole nation, whether it has helped the Vietnam community because none of [inaudible] going to totally heal. But is it possible to yield from such divisions that... MT (01:59:54): Yeah, I think they become less important. I mean, except as things that have modeled your thinking. But I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Especially through the... I mean, is it possible for one generation to heal? Maybe not entirely, but certainly through the generations, there is evolution. SM (02:00:17): I am about... MT (02:00:19): You are past it. I mean now, it is like past tense. But as I said, if you feel like... [End of Interview] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Thom Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thom, Mary ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 120:26 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8160b2853b77ab8fe8c1a2e312ee622c.jpg f1aee1af07ba7a940b77e8b8fe60ce6f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05ae878377bee832e53426cdfb479636.mp3 9dabf112f00cd7ae4b8d245cdec1e259 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Holtzman Date of Interview 2011-06-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 79:14 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Ausio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Holtzman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Holtzman, Elizabeth ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.177 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 79:14 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ed675ff6bafa558614695c7747d57af.jpg e6ca1479354b3d7e8a19d2b07d9a424e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/acb2073b4b7437854d8de544f3d4bd6e.mp3 53924ed6e9e6465746379802c8966a5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-08-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mike Roselle Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 128:16 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activism career."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness.</span> Subject LCSH Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mike Roselle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roselle, Mike ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 128:16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b627f0b93c60a89e01915fd579024b23.jpg 53f237a85d73da43846c712fc1a7bc96 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/70ee3688d055cc44c17ef43b1707035f.mp3 600d4541e81acb61f48296e17022f2dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-08-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Courtland Cox, 1941- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Courtland Cox spent his childhood between Trinidad and New York City. He went to Howard University and eventually became a civil rights activist. He joined a group called the Non-violent Action Group (NAG) to fight against white supremacy and segregation and then became a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). Throughout his years as an activist, Cox helped organized groups in order to prevent segregation from occurring in the world."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Courtland Cox spent his childhood between Trinidad and New York City. He went to Howard University and eventually became a civil rights activist. He joined a group called the Non-violent Action Group (NAG) to fight against white supremacy and segregation and then became a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). Throughout his years as an activist, Cox helped organized groups in order to prevent segregation from occurring in the world.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Trinidad; Harlem; Island Scholarships Projects; Bronx; Throggs Neck Projects; Poverty; Caribbean; Segregation; Freedom rides; Bobby Mitchell; Ernie Davis; Racial equality; Discrimination; Black colleges; Black Panther; Montgomery Bus Boycott; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Baby boom generation; Gay Power; Cultural Boundaries."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Trinidad; Harlem; Island Scholarships Projects; Bronx; Throggs Neck Projects; Poverty; Caribbean; Segregation; Freedom rides; Bobby Mitchell; Ernie Davis; Racial equality; Discrimination; Black colleges; Black Panther; Montgomery Bus Boycott; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Baby boom generation; Gay Power; Cultural Boundaries.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 142:55 Subject LCSH Political activists--United States; Cox, Courtland, 1941--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Courtland Cox Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 11 August 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. Just hold these tapes as we go. One of the first questions I like to always ask is, how did you become- CC (00:00:16): Would it be better if we sat at a table that you could just- SM (00:00:19): Oh, no, this is fine. I sat many couches. CC (00:00:25): There is a table. Let us look at the other room. You want the lights on here or just- SM (00:00:31): Oh, no, we are fine. Yep, we are fine. Got my new glasses too, these cost me a lot of money. How did you become who you are? The first question I always ask is, what were those early years in your life when you were in elementary school and secondary school before you went off to Howard? And I always like to find out a little about where you grew up, your family, what your parents did. Who your mentors, role models were, before you ever met Bayard Rustin. CC (00:01:04): Well, I was born in the United States in Harlem, actually. And my mother had moved here from Trinidad. And when I was four years old, my mother sent my sister and myself back to Trinidad to live with my grandmother because she was a single parent in the United States, so it was very difficult. So we went back and I lived in Trinidad from the time I was four, until my grandmother died in (19)52, and came back here around 11, 12 years old. I think probably the biggest influence on me, in that period, was the emphasis on education that my family had. Even though my mother's generation did not go to college, my grandmother had nine children and probably about seven survived. And each of them, education was big for their families and many of them, and those who were ahead of me, had won at that time what they called island scholarships. Some attended Cambridge, some attended Oxford, some went to LSE, London School of Economics, others came to the United States. So probably the first big influence in my life was the huge stress for education and becoming educated. When I came back to the United States, around 12, we were moved out of Harlem into the projects in the Bronx, called Throggs Neck Projects. And at that point, I observed America from that vantage point. And so in (19)53, (19)54, America was a much different place as it dealt with the question of race. But a lot of the pathologies that we see today were present at that point. Kids were getting on drugs. There was heroin at that point, smoking marijuana. A lot of them were not going to school. There were no jobs. People overtly told them, "Why go to school? You are not going to have a good college education." So all of that was emphasized in the society very openly. They absorbed it. And as kids 15, 16, 17, by that time, their initiatives were already destroyed. But the thing for me was the background that I had from Trinidad in terms of education, in terms of emphasis, in terms of my mother's view, that kind of inoculated me from that environment. And so therefore, while all of them were dropping out of school, I was going to school, I was fit. My sister and I were probably two of the four people that continued to go to high school. But we dealt with high school anyhow. So that is before I got to Howard University. The whole emphasis on education, my upbringing in the Caribbean was probably the major influence of my life. SM (00:05:12): At what point when you were young, you could be junior high or senior high, when you're reading about the history of the United States, and you come from Trinidad and how important education is in your family, that you read the history of the United States and there was a point in time when African Americans were not allowed to read. They were punished if they were caught reading. And this is going back to even to the founding of the nation and what happened in the 1800s. CC (00:05:49): I think the discussion I had with the guys who were 15 and 16 years old, it was now I think about it, their analysis of the society and what was open to them and what was real or not real was very profound. I am now understanding a lot better. I think my discussion, because coming back to the United States was a culture shock in the sense that all the frames of reference that were here was something I did not really have. I was coming from one culture to another culture, but my understanding of the American environment really, my first impressions were really developed with talking to the young people who, at the end of the day, whether they be in jail, killed or so forth, but they understood what the discussion was. SM (00:07:05): If you were to talk about mentors and role models as you got older, obviously Bayard Rustin was one, and there were many others, Dr. King. Was there, even in your schooling here in the United States, you had your grandmother, you had your family, but was there a teacher, was there some teacher in school or some figure in the news that in the 1950s that stood out for you as a young [inaudible]? CC (00:07:36): I would say the name that comes to mind, but this was in the Caribbean, Ms. Curry. But when I came back to the United States, my mother sent me to Catholic schools to make sure that that shield was there. My sense is that when I came back, I went to a school that was, finishing the eighth grade or so, was the all black order of nuns at St. Aloysius School. I think it was the name after St. Martin De Porres. So that was my first thing. And then I went to Catholic high school. But that was a different shock because there were four blacks in the whole school. SM (00:08:39): And how many were in the school? CC (00:08:41): Probably hundreds of kids. Literally the whole school. And I think we were the first class. And by the second year of high school, I was the only black, no, I think there were two of us, but third year I was the only one. So coming from the contrast from Catholic school where you're the only black or one or two in back to the projects, the contrast was quite interesting as I remember it. SM (00:09:22): And were there any books as a young boy or young man that you read early on? Writers that inspired you? CC (00:09:35): I do not know inspired but the one that James Joyce, The Portrait. Reading that in Catholic school, that was quite, and also my sense is that the other one that impressed me was Zola's book. The title does not come to mind right away. SM (00:10:12): Émile Zola? CC (00:10:14): Émile Zola's book. We talked about the trial. But I think at that point, the whole discussions of right and wrong and good and bad, seems to me those kinds of things attracted my attention, the things that focused on that, right and wrong and good and bad and so forth. SM (00:10:43): My next question gets into the Howard years. How did you end up at Howard University? Why did you pick that school? And talking about your years in Howard, how did you become an activist for the first time? And do you remember the first time that you ever spoke up about a subject that upset you and you really became vulnerable for the first time? CC (00:11:09): My sense is that after I got out of college, no, while I was in high school, my mother's place was the place, that was the stop that everybody came to from Trinidad, my relatives. And my cousin, Erskine, had been accepted to Howard. So he was going back and forth to Howard, I think I was working in the post office and I was 18 or 19, I was making in 1958, (19)59, I was making $2 an hour plus 20 percent plus 10 percent night differentials. So I was making $2.20 an hour, which was a lot of money during that time. But I said to myself, "I really do not want to be doing this all." I was a postal clerk. It was not like I was- SM (00:12:27): This is after you graduated high school? CC (00:12:30): The year after I took the test, I became a postal clerk, which was a career for most people. And I was, after six months, I said, "Nah, there must be a better way. Must be a better way than this." And so I talked to my cousin about Howard, Erskine Arlene, because at that time Howard just gave a test entrance exam. You did not have to take SATs and all that. You had an entrance exam. So one day got on the Greyhound bus, came down to Washington, I remember it was snowing in New York, when I got to Washington it was sunny. And took the test and went back home. And short time later, they said, "Hey, you passed. You are good if you want to come." And at that point, it cost $7.50 a semester hour to go to school. And so it was like $107.50 for 15 hours, $40 room and board, $40 for food. And so I was working at post office making serious money and so I saved my postal money and came down to Howard to go to school. SM (00:14:08): And you were there four year. CC (00:14:08): Four years, that is right. SM (00:14:10): What years were those now? CC (00:14:13): I came down in (19)60 and left (19)64. SM (00:14:18): Harris Walford went there, but I think he went to law school there, did not he? CC (00:14:21): Who is this? SM (00:14:21): Harris Walford. CC (00:14:23): Walford? I do not know. I am not sure. He was a little ahead of me, I am sure. SM (00:14:28): I think he went to law school. CC (00:14:30): Law school there, right. SM (00:14:36): During those years, what was being a student at Howard during those years? CC (00:14:39): I am telling you a lot of energy. I think we started out, we did a number of things at Howard. We did the civil rights discussion. We did the newspaper. We did a Project awareness. We did a bunch. We were the energy bunnies. We started out- SM (00:15:11): Who is "we" now? CC (00:15:13): People like Stokely Carmichael, Bill Mahoney, Mike Thelwell, Ed Brown, people like that. We were at Cleve Sellers, who's now president of Voorhees. We started out in trying to, when I came here in (19)60, a number of things were in Washington. First, Glen Echo, the amusement park was segregated. The Washington Post had ads for coloreds and whites. They were huge swaths of the city that blacks could not live in. A number of stores, the better stores, blacks could not try on clothes. The police force was mainly guys from the south who could not find jobs elsewhere being put on the police force by the congressional people. The district was run hands on by the Congress of the United States. So we came into this environment and we started off by, right after the Freedom Rides and right after the whole question of the sit-ins, we started testing the kind of segregated facilities that they had in Washington. And we formed a group called the Non-Violent Action Group, which was one of the student groups that comprised SNCC, Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee. So that is how I started getting into it. Looking at the situation that was here in Washington in terms of the segregated facilities, the segregated political structure. The segregated economic structure. Not only does that mean Washington Redskins had no black players. So one of the first things I did was picketed RFK, what we call RFK Stadium now, because they had no black players on their team. SM (00:17:45): Was Bobby Mitchell the first? CC (00:17:47): Yeah, he came the year after. SM (00:17:49): From the Cleveland Browns. CC (00:17:51): He came in after. I think the first thing they were going to do was they were to get, what is his name from Syracuse who died? SM (00:17:59): Ernie Davis. CC (00:18:01): Ernie Davis, yes. But he died and then they brought in Bobby Mitchell. And the Redskins owner name is not coming to me now. What's his name? SM (00:18:16): [inaudible] CC (00:18:16): No-no-no. I am talking about why back, because the Redskins was a team of the South. Because remember, most football teams at that period in 1960 did not exist in the South. They did not go to the south till later on. Most of the teams, they had maybe 12 teams. You were talking about the Cleveland. The football was an industrial, northern industrial phenomena. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, New York, places like that. Philadelphia. So when you talk about the South and the West, they did not come until after (19)60 when you had the AFC and all these other guys coming in. So you got to remember that the Redskins were the team of the South. That is what everybody, there was no Dallas Cowboys, or there was no North Carolina Panthers or Atlanta Falcons. They did not have all that. They had the Redskins. This was their team. And so if they are broadcasting in the South they were not going to have a lot of black people on North's teams. So that was particularly important. SM (00:19:34): It is interesting because Ernie Davis, I am from Syracuse, right? So Ernie is dead from Leukemia, so sad. CC (00:19:45): He had a lot of potential. A big guy. We started with that non-violent action group. We had a group coming together, as I mentioned some of the people, Ed Brown, Cleve, Stanley Wise, Stokely, Mary Felice Lovelace, Muriel Tillinghast. We had a group of very, very bright people. SM (00:20:20): How big was the student population at that time? And were you the rare group, the ones that were really activists? CC (00:20:29): We were the rare group, the student population I could not tell you. Probably had to be, I do not know, probably at least maybe 15, 16, maybe 2000. I am not sure, but about at least that. But we were the group that we were seen. Interestingly enough, we were seen by the students as unusual. We were seen by the professors as their children of hope. So we were treated by the professors, at least certain professors, but I think a number of them, with a certain kind of, "We are behind you. We want to talk to you. We want to nurture you." And probably the lead in that was Sterling Brown. Sterling Brown, he did for us a number of things. He would come and he would lecture about the blues in our dormitory. We could get him to do it. He would come and talk. He would read his poetry. He would talk about jazz. But more importantly, for a small group of us, Butch Khan and Ed and Tom Khan, and people like that. Tom and Butch were also very key in this discussion. He would take us over at his house, open up some bourbon and talk about the voice, talk about the people that he knew. So it was not a book discussion. He is talking about friends. Because one of the things that interests me today, because when I am talking to people in SNCC, it is always a discussion about your life. It is always a discussion about memories. It is always a discussion about a number of things. My perspective is really just, these are the things I did. That is what it is. It is only when people are talking to me that there is a sense of history. And so what Sterling Brown did was took us inside the lives of the voice, about what he liked, what he liked to eat, what did he like to drink, how'd he wear his pass, what people would say about it, the whole discussion. He gave us a sense, there were people like Conrad Snow, who was a professor up there. People like Emmett Dorsey. They were all people who really said to us, "You are not radicals. You are not outside the mainstream." The message to us constantly from those professors were, "You are the hope of our future." And I think enough has not been said about a lot of those professors who, like Patricia. Patricia, she ran for mayor. Patricia Roberts Harris, she was secretary of HUD. She was also an ambassador too. And I remember in a little while, but she was also Dean of Women at Howard University. And Mary Felice Lovelace, who was going out, she and Stokely were an item for a long time. They went out. And when she would come back late from demonstrations, while it was a strict rule for the other women, Harris, "Well, you are coming in from demonstrations. All right." So they gave us space. And so I think on that side of it, we did that at Howard. While we were also viewed as a small band, people also looked at what we were doing. And I think probably Stokely had the biggest impact on this, is that he would also involve the other students, and going out to demonstrate. He would tell them that we were going in a demonstration, but there was a great party afterwards. And so to go to the party afterwards, these kids would go demonstrate. So we would swell our ranks with that. Now, I think for both Stokely and myself in particular, and Tom Khan, Tom obviously was very close to Bayard, but we also knew, coming from New York, both of us, knew about some of the discussions that were going on. So one of the things that we did, and this is really Tom Khan's brainchild, we created a thing called Project Awareness. And the same NAG people who were doing the demonstrations were the same NAG people who did the organization of the Project Awareness. And the first event was a debate between Bayard Rustin and Malcolm X on separation versus integration. SM (00:27:14): Is that the one where they are on the stage and it was taped? CC (00:27:17): Yeah. SM (00:27:18): That is a story. CC (00:27:19): Yes, it is. But it is interesting. This work in a number of ways. First of all, it revealed to us a split at Howard University. The head of the political science department, his name was Martin, Professor Martin, thought that it was unworthy to have Malcolm X at Howard University. Emmett Dorsey, who was a professor who was very strong on the African American status in the United States, shot pool down at the pool hall with the guys and so forth, embraced Malcolm and then moderated the debate. And he was the one that did that. Now, this was our first debate. Cramton Auditorium had just opened up. It held 1500 people. And you asked me how many people we had. We had 1500 people there. The place was packed to the gills, not only packed to the gills, they were people banging all night on the doors trying to get in. And Bayard did something that was very interesting. Each speaker had, I think, half an hour to present their case, and Bayard was up first, he spoke on the question of integration. Malcolm was speaking on the question of separation. Bayard spoke for 15 minutes, and he said, "You always-" CC (00:29:03): ... 15 minutes. And he said, "You always hear my point of view. I am going to give Malcolm 15 minutes of my time so that you can fully hear his." And I am telling you, Malcolm was one of the best speakers around. You could not believe... I mean, he had a profound effect. So after that first event, people looked at us even more... And the professors were even more embracing, and the students were amazed. "God, how could you do that? How could you pull that off?" The next event we had on the Project Awareness was called Whither the Negro Writer. It was moderated by Sterling Brown. We had Ossie Davis, we had John Killens. We had Jim Baldwin. And it was just, again, another fabulous thing. And we used to have little after parties for the guests. Sidney Poitier flew in, said, "I heard you guys were in town. I just thought I would come and party, hang out." I mean, it was like... So now we really think, "Wow, what is going..." And then the third thing that we had was on thermonuclear warfare with Herman Kahn from, I think it was the Hudson Institute, and Norman Thomas debating the issue of thermonuclear warfare. So now we have established not only the demonstrations about trying to go against the large society, but on the big issues of the day, we are now driving that train. And in addition to that, also, Mike Falwell, who was part of the NAG. SM (00:31:12): Group, was the editor of the newspaper, The Hilltop, which received award after award. So not only now we are part of a group that does this in terms of outside the campus, this in terms of the campus, and then Stokely and Tom Kahn were on the student council. And Tom was very smart. He says, "I do not want to be the president. I just want to be the treasurer." He ran for being the treasurer. And he understood that was where it is. So basically we had spread, we had an entity, an organizing entity that functioned both inside and outside the campus that had a profound effect on what was going on. And the other thing was that we were probably some of the best students in the campus too. So this is, I think for even today when I talk to the people we were in school with today, they remember that, the energy we brought to the discussion. So I would say that the profound discussion at Howard to me was that. Now I think off-campus, I think probably, I would say the smartest person I had ever seen politically in terms of these things was Bayard. Because he had seen a lot of these movies. He had understood the politics. And at that point we had a lot of things with the Trotskyites and the Stalinists and all that kind of stuff. And he had been through all of that whole era, and he was able to help us sink through and deal with all of it because we had a focused message. We did not need to go into the battle of who lost Moscow and all that kind of stuff. We wanted to know what is it we were going to do here? Where were we going to go? So my sense is that, at least at Howard, through that whole Howard period, there are a number of things I found to be very important. First, I guess sense from the professors that we were Children of Hope. I think the second thing was that the energy that we were able to bring to the discussion, whether we were dealing with demonstrations or whether we were dealing with the newspaper articles, we were able to practice our craft of being very good at whatever we did. We did not lose. The whole organizing discussion, we were very good at it. The third, we were big influences of the young people who were on campus as to what was going to be their future, breaking the barriers that they had come into. And so I think in the political sense, probably Bayard was the most important. I think on the cultural historical sense; Sterling Brown was the most important. Whatever became of Sterling? CC (00:35:16): He died. SM (00:35:17): How long after? CC (00:35:20): Sterling was in his high (19)80s. Sterling was in the high (19)80s, and I assume Sterling died maybe, it seemed like 15, 20 years ago. SM (00:35:36): Okay. CC (00:35:36): Yeah. SM (00:35:38): Hey. That is a great description of your time in Howard. And the thing is, I did not know Stokely was there. I knew Ed was there. CC (00:35:47): Stokely was there. SM (00:35:48): Stokely was very- CC (00:35:50): He was very profound. And Cleve Sellers, Stanley Wise, Muriel Tillinghan. I mean, those people were very... Not only that, let me just also go one other point. In terms of SNCC. You had two kinds of views coming out of SNCC. The one is John Lewis's view about nonviolence. And his view was that this was a philosophy, a way of life. And what you were trying to do was appeal to people's better selves. The Howard people did not have that view. Howard people believed, thought that nonviolence was important because you did not have enough to be not non-violent. And that at the end of the day, that people operated out of their own interests, not out of any kind of goodness at the heart. So I think probably the thing while at Howard and the big debate, the NAG group in terms of SNCC, was from the beginning, our views were much sharper, much more political than the Nashville group with John and Diane Nash Bevel, and those others. SM (00:37:30): That is James Bevel's wife, right? CC (00:37:32): Yes. SM (00:37:32): And he died at about two years ago. CC (00:37:33): He died about two years ago. SM (00:37:35): We had him on campus twice. CC (00:37:37): Right. Yeah. Right. SM (00:37:37): And so you really met Bayard right there at Howard. CC (00:37:41): Yeah. Met Bayard at Howard. SM (00:37:42): In that debate. CC (00:37:43): He came to the debate. Yeah. SM (00:37:47): Now, how did he continue to influence the people? He came to the debate and Nelson came and they went on. You guys were with SNCC and you had your issues on campus. You were involved with many other people. Did you still stay in touch with them? CC (00:37:58): Oh yeah. SM (00:37:59): And the Congress of Racial Equality too? CC (00:38:01): Yeah, because one of the things, especially in terms of the demonstrations, I stayed with in touch with Bayard a lot, probably more than the others. But I think that he was very helpful in terms of trying to get us through the political thickets that we found ourselves, particularly in the demonstrations in Baltimore and the various kinds of people interests who wanted to come and take over. So, Bayard, I remember once we were in a big fight with some people in Baltimore, and Bayard got the national headquarters of court to make him a representative. So he came into the meeting as the National Representative Corps, and he just devastated the people who wanted to go against us. But the other big thing was, you remember also, Bayard was the organizer, I guess for the second March on Washington, second proposed March. So... That is definitely you. SM (00:39:30): Hello? Hello? How would they get my number? Bye. Amazing. I am on Facebook a lot. CC (00:39:53): Oh you are? SM (00:39:55): Yeah, I am on Facebook and I have friends, and I belong to certain organizations through Facebook. They sell your name to everything. CC (00:40:03): Well, guess what? I avoid that. SM (00:40:06): Facebook? CC (00:40:09): Yeah. SM (00:40:09): I am starting to see the dangers of it. Definitely seeing the dangers of it. Now, I will get back here. Amazing that they got up. They should have my home phone. They should not be having my cell phone number. CC (00:40:22): Well, that is easy to get. SM (00:40:23): Yeah. One of the things, you worked on the March on Washington. CC (00:40:30): Right. Yeah. SM (00:40:31): And you were the- CC (00:40:32): Representative of SNCC. And let me say to you that I am not sure SNCC would have been represented at the march in Washington, unless it was reason I argued for it. And I argued because my trust with Bayard. The people in SNCC were not at the initial points just ready for it, because you have got to remember, there were a number of competing interests in March and Washington, Dick Gregory and others had a view of something much more radical in terms and much more disruptive. And Bayard had something in a much more organized, much more important in terms of that. So SNCC people were torn in this discussion. And because of by my trust in Bayard, I was able to convince the SNCC people to participate. And their view was, since you want to do it, you go represent us. And that was that. So that is how we got into it. Now, I think it was an important for us to be there historically, as history has proven it was an important event. And to see Bayard having to maneuver where those guys, Roy Wilkins and the rest, I mean, he did have the protection of A. Phillip Randolph. Nobody was going to separate him from me, because as you remember, that time, the whole question... There are two issues that are much different now at this point than they were at that time. The question of homosexuality, that was just death. And the second was the question of communism and did you ever, or whatever. And Bayard had both of those on him. And so his ability to maneuver his organizational skills in terms of pulling that off under that kind of weight, political weight, because absent A. Philip Randolph, these guys would have never given Bayard the time of day if they could not deal with Randolph. And Randolph was going to have this march, especially after what happened in (19)41. SM (00:43:18): I read about how you were involved with changing John Lewis's speech, and I was reading in another interview that it was happening as the event was happening. CC (00:43:29): Yes, yes. Oh, there's a picture up there that showed we were doing it. One of those pictures we were back at the Lincoln Memorial- SM (00:43:39): Oh, that is that picture there? CC (00:43:39): Yes. Yeah. SM (00:43:39): Oh my God. CC (00:43:39): Yeah. That is what we are doing. I basically, as I said, I was representing the march of SNCC. And John's speech came out the day before, they sent the speech, then I distributed- SM (00:43:58): How come you did not give a speech? CC (00:43:58): Me? No-no. It was John's center. I do not know. SM (00:43:59): Yeah, he was picked by SNCC to be the man? CC (00:44:01): No, he was the chairman at that point. SM (00:44:02): Okay. CC (00:44:05): So John's speech was written, probably a lot of it by Julian. And I distributed it because I wanted make sure that John and SNCC did not get lost in the crowd in terms of the speeches. So I sent it out, gave it out the day before. And what happened was the Kennedy people saw it. And so they called Cardinal O'Boyle, who was a member of the March on Washington group representing the Catholic Church. And he threatened to pull out of the speak thing. And when Bayard came to us about it and asked for our support in terms of that, we told Bayard that it's all right if O'Boyle leaves. But then Bayard brought A. Philip Randolph, and A. Philip Randolph talked about how he had worked with this for 20 years and how it was important. And once he did that, then what we did was we had an old typewriter, you can see we had a portable typewriter, and Jim Foreman, John Lewis, Mildred Foreman and myself in the back of the Lincoln Memorial making the changes to the speech. SM (00:45:35): Unbelievable, the pressure. CC (00:45:35): Oh yeah. SM (00:45:35): The pressure is intense. CC (00:45:42): Oh yeah. But what it did at that point was that this country loves controversy, so basically it made John's speech much more memorable because of the controversy, because it now had something to add to it. So we published a speech at first, and we published the changed speech. Now the SNCC people did call me a sellout, John, Jim Foreman for changing the speech. But we thought that it was better to go ahead and do that. And it got much more historical recognition because of it. SM (00:46:20): That is amazing. And this is important. John Kennedy obviously had reservations about this whole thing. CC (00:46:26): Oh yes, he did. SM (00:46:28): And historically, at the time, correct me if I am wrong, the Southern Democrats, even in his run for the presidency, he was concerned about the Southern Democrats because if he became out too strong towards civil rights he might lose the Southern vote and all the other stuff. Then he becomes President of the United States. And we know the whole history of LBJ and what he did in civil rights. But from your experiences and from talking to John Lewis and Julian Bond and all the people, Bayard, was Kennedy just a pragmatic politician? And did he sincerely care about civil rights? Or was this just a pragmatic move on his part to get support? CC (00:47:13): I think that Kennedy was a smart politician, and I think he began to see the future. I do not think that Kennedy, Jack Kennedy, in any way had any strong belief in civil rights. I think he had an intellectual support of it. But in terms of if he had to choose between his intellectual kind of thing, doing good and doing well, he would choose doing well because he wanted to be president. I mean, it is an ambitious family. And so his call to Martin King was a symbolic thing that would help solidify the, at that point, the Negro vote against... Because you have to remember that Nixon had Jackie Robinson on his side, and most blacks, until (19)36, most black people were Republicans. Because remember, the Republican party was the party of Lincoln. And was only until the Depression and Roosevelt that it started turning around. And so you have people like Jackie Robinson who were Republicans who were supporting, and Jackie Robinson was a big hero. So King was a counterweight to Jackie Robinson on that side. The other thing is that I do truly think that probably the one that started to get it later on in life was Bobby Kennedy. I think that after his brother was shot, I think he became a lot more introspective. And I think only somebody who had really understood what the deal was could have given that speech the night King got killed. He's only one that you really... This was not an off the top of the head speech. This way a, I understand this. I understand this more than any of you really understand it. And I think that he understood it after his brother got killed. But before that, they were, for example, Tom Khan, Butch Khan, Stokely, and myself, we sat in his office, in Bobby Kennedy's office. And what was funny is that they decided, okay, just leave him. Wait until the building closed down and then take some wheelchairs and wheel him them out. So they knew that... And Bobby Kennedy, at the end of the day, when they had to face... They did not want to be pushed. But when they were pushed, they took the right decision in terms of sending in troops. But even at the same time, they were trying to isolate Bayard and others from Martin King because they thought they were quote, "the radical communist element." So they were doing both things at the same time. So they were very scared, both of the Southern discussion, which was centered on race, and the communist discussion, which was huge at that time. SM (00:51:06): And even Dr. King, if I remember correctly, he was at that group with Miles Horton. He was in the audience and they said, "He is a communist" for being at that. They were making comments about Dr. King. CC (00:51:24): Yeah, obviously, look, and Bayard and Martin parted ways on this issue of communism because they did not want to take the heat. And the only group that really did not care about it was SNCC. I mean, we associated with Anne Braden, we associated with Miles Horton. We went out to his place. I was in Mississippi in 1963, and a lady came up to me and she said, "I am sure glad you communists are here to help us." So she got the message about communists, communists, communists. But she said, "Well, if these guys are scared of the communists, they must be here to help us." So I just think that at the end of the day, the thing I think that SNCC did that, especially in the early days, they did two things that were very profound. Well, maybe three things. First, they broke the back of this communist discussion because they did not care and they were not old enough to be influenced by the discussion. Two, they were able to organize and stay in the communities with the people that they worked with. They did not come in and go out. And the third is that because of that, they were able to function and not be paralyzed by terrorist tactics. I think those three things, I think distinguishes SNCC in a lot of ways, especially in the period from (19)60 to (19)64. SM (00:53:22): And of course, did you go down to the South yourself during the Freedom Rights? CC (00:53:28): Yeah, yeah. No, I did not go down South for Freedom Rights, no. Stokely was there. Bill Mahoney, John Moody, a number of people from Howard, but I did not go. Dion Diamond. SM (00:53:38): Freedom Summer was a special year. CC (00:53:43): It was (19)64. Yeah, yeah. SM (00:53:43): Yeah. And the Schwerner, Chaney, Goodman. Boy, that must be- CC (00:53:45): Yeah, that was terrorism. I mean, that is basically send the message and these people, kids, would get scared. And while people were scared they were not paralyzed. And that is seems to be the key question. SM (00:54:03): I have a question here. Did you or your family personally experience racism? Do you ever remember yourself experiencing it personally? CC (00:54:15): Yeah. My sense is that at that time it was just pervasive. The messages were very clear. You never saw any people of color on TV. You got to remember that. It is just profound how... I mean for me, you never saw anybody of color. You were always told, "We could not find any qualified." You were always told that. I mean, I never went to an apartment and somebody told me, "No, you cannot rent here." That was not never the case. But it does seem to me that the ability to move within the society without barriers... I mean, I give up racists, okay. During the demonstrations and so forth, I would go to restaurants and we would be refused and that, so we knew that. I guess it is just, so we were told "We do not serve you" or "we do not serve your kind." And what's really funny, especially on Route 40, where we were demonstrating, of course remember at that point, 95 was not the major route to New York, it was Route 40. And it was only after- SM (00:55:42): We went through that route when we went to Florida. CC (00:55:45): Okay. But I remember Stokely and I, after they decided on Route 40 and so forth, to open up and desegregate the restaurants. Because frankly, we have been to hundreds of restaurants and they turned us away. So we went in to eat breakfast. And the food was god awful. And so we said to each other, is this what we have been fighting for? This is bad food. We just go back into the black community, and get some good food. We're not coming back to this food. We're not coming back to this anymore. So I just think that there were several barriers that were known and unknown by us and experienced and anticipated by us coming. And I guess the other thing is police brutality in terms of, we went down in Washington, DC, Butch Con, Ed Brown and myself. We went down to the police station to talk to them, complain to them about what we thought was police brutality. So it was an all-white station. So the desk Sergeant said to us, "Well, when you start paying my salary, you can come in here and tell me what is going on and what we should be doing." And Butch Con spoke up and said, "Well, as a matter of fact, because we citizens, we do pay your salary." The desk Sergeant reached across the thing and punched Butch in the face. SM (00:57:48): Oh my God. So did Butch sue him? CC (00:57:52): No-no-no-no. So what we did, and it was a guy named Wayne Moss, who was the union guy in town. I forgot what union it was, but so we called him. CC (00:58:03): ... in town. I forgot what Union he was with. So, we called him. And he also knew a guy at the Justice Department, who was African American, Duncan. And I think his name... I know his father's name was Todd Duncan, the musical guy. And Duncan was, I forgot, I am not sure what his first name was. So, this African-American comes in, and so we walk back in with this African-American guy whose name is Duncan. So, Duncan says, "I'd like to speak to the person who is in charge." So, they say, "Okay. Well, here is some more of these Black people coming in here, we saw them before." So, the guy says, "Well, we do not exactly know who's in charge." Just dismissive. So, what Duncan did, he ripped out his Justice Department credentials, and said, "If nobody is in charge, I am in charge." They were like flummoxed. They could not believe. Poom! They could not believe it. Then, he took over and directed these guys what they had to do or not do. So, I am just saying to you... And Julius Hobson, who used to, he was with CORE, as you know, he would call us for demonstrations all the time. So, yeah, for me, the reason I do not focus on events of discrimination, because I was always on offense, I was always trying to break the barriers down. Therefore, I never got offended because I was always on offense. So, that is my perspective on it. SM (01:00:10): I see here, just, people that are going to be reading the interviews, a lot of them do not know their history, as you well know, young people. In your own just a few words, what was SNCC, when did it start, why did it start, and what were its basic goals, and who were its leaders? And I know Bob Moses was leading... CC (01:00:37): Oh, yeah, okay. Well, SNCC, really SNCC came as a result of the need to test the law of the land that had just been established. So, you have got to remember, in 1896 this country had declared, separate but equal, the law of the land. So, that went on till about 1954 with the Brown v Board of Education. But with the Brown V Board of Education, and later with the in-Interstate Commerce Commission laws and rulings, all of it was talked about with all deliberate speed. So, for most young Black people, we saw the same thing, the status quo, and therefore, the need to challenge and to say, "If the law on our side, we want the country to act like the Lord is on our side." So, you had the sit-ins, and then you had the freedom riots. So, the sit-ins said, we are challenging the whole concept of our right to be like everybody else and that barrier to go away. The freedom riots said, we can... SM (01:02:05): Hey, you are doing fine. CC (01:02:20): Sure. SM (01:02:22): Yep, that was all right. I am sorry. CC (01:02:26): There you go. So, you have got that the freedom riot said, we have a right to travel without being treated as second class citizens, which means, you have to sit in the back of the bus, you have to give up your seat to any White person, and when you want to use facilities, the toilets and so forth, you do not go to a nasty, dirty place which is labeled "Colored", if you want to drink water, you should drink it from the best fountain. So, all those public accommodation barriers, we were challenging that whether we had a right to do what this country now said, after the 54th Supreme Court decision and other rulings said we had a right to do. So, those two events triggered SNCC. So, what happened was, Ms. Ella Baker called together a meeting at Shore University in February 1st 1960, to talk about how you coordinated all these activities. Therefore, you got Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee. And at first SNCC was a group of campus organizations. So, as I mentioned, you had the group out of Nashville with John Lewis and them, you had a group in Atlanta, the Atlanta Student Movement, you had a group up at Howard called the Non-Violent Action Group. You had groups like that, mostly on historically Black colleges. And that is how... And SNCC functioned like that, probably from 1960 to early 1962, where they were coordinated groups of campus people. Then, what began to happen was, again, some people started dropping out of school and beginning living in the communities, or had finished school, like Bob Moses, and started living in the communities. And there was a whole big debate about whether you continued public accommodations like looking at desegregating theaters, desegregating housing, desegregating lunch counters, or whether you move into the next phase, which was the political phase, deal with voting rights. At the end of the day, people in SNCC decided to go into voting rights. Therefore, with that kind of agenda, the nature of SNCC changed. So, we were no longer just campus organizations where you could, demonstrations all over the place, but you had voting rights in the most dangerous places; Mississippi, Alabama, Southwest Georgia. So, those students... And most people, we were between 17 and 22. Julian, somebody accused Julian of saying, "Well, they were 26 years old." Julian resented that. "No, I was 21, 22 years old." And that is what- SM (01:05:57): He is on my Facebook. CC (01:06:00): Yeah. So, here is a guy, here you have people, if you try to talk to them about whole groups of fear and communism and all this other baggage, no, they see right and wrong, they see people who are supposed to be voting in the United States cannot vote, they see barriers that exist. Therefore, SNCC came in at the tail end of what I characterize as the legal fight with the NAACP and people like that, brought us Brown v Board and all the issues around that, and all the stuff that King brought in terms of testing the legal things. So, my sense is that the period of beginning to either challenge the law, test the law, really came with the sit-ins and the freedom riots. Then, the political era, I would say SNCC was very much involved in that discussion. Started in (19)62 and probably ended in 2008, where the political barriers, where you no longer had poll tax and educational tests and all that stuff to be become a voter and a citizen in the United States. So, my sense is that SNCC went from a campus organization, particularly dealing with public accommodations and public accommodations issues, to moving to become a centralized organization dealing with voting, voting rights, and political organization. And probably, the two huge things that had big impact because of SNCC, at least on the voter registration side, was the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and what it did in the challenge in (19)64, and the Lowndes County Freedom Organization. Those two, I think, had profound impact on this country. SM (01:08:21): It is interesting, Fannie Lou Hamer... I have a question that I have asked a lot of people. A lot of the reason why the women's movement abound was because of sexism that took place within the anti-war movement, which was really strong. And even, I talked to members of the gay and lesbian group, and they also said it was very prevalent in there. And Civil Rights too. So, when you look at the march on Washington in 1963, we know that Rochelle was involved and Bayard had many young mentees under him and he was delegating them, but obviously, it was not publicized in the media that much, unless you read the bio of Bayard and others. Because when you see all the people in front of the Lincoln Memorial, you see Dorothy Height standing over to the right, and you see Mahalia Jackson singing, but it is all men. CC (01:09:23): That is true. SM (01:09:23): It is all men. And- CC (01:09:24): I think, with the exception of Dorothy Height, there was nobody at the leadership level who was a woman. And she was there and probably there because of Bayard. I think that the involvement of young people... Because the other piece is that some of those guys, particularly Roy Wilkins, did not particularly embrace the involvement of young people either now. So, Roy Wilkins said, "I am not going to have you...," he told me, "I am not going to have your young people come in here and destroy everything we have worked for-for all these years. You will do it over my dead body." So, it seems to me that these guys had built themselves a structure, and were resistant to women, to young people, and other people that they were not "comfortable" with coming into that arena. SM (01:10:38): I think Whitney Young was in the same boat. CC (01:10:40): Oh, no question. He went into his thing, they would coveralls... Oh, he had a fit. He just could not understand how these young people could be so disrespectful, come into this building that Rockefeller gave them, I think on 48th Street, in coveralls. And do we care about any of that? We did not care. SM (01:11:04): The other thing is, James Farmer, who was arrested, I believe, and he was not at the march, he was the one leader that was not there, I believe- CC (01:11:13): Yeah. But I think, by that time, Farmer had given it up to what is-his-face, and he was in Black Mind, Louisiana. But he was down in- SM (01:11:19): Floyd McKissick? CC (01:11:19): Floyd McKissick, right. Yeah-yeah. SM (01:11:24): No, he was not resistant though, was he? He is- CC (01:11:27): No-no-no. I think Farmer came of the tradition much more like Bayard, being Fellowship of Reconciliation, that kind of stuff. He is much more in that kind of tradition than say Roy Wilkins or Whitney Young, and so forth. SM (01:11:47): Some of the transition you are talking about here too, which is really... I have done a lot of reading on Dr. King, and I am really looking forward to the week that is coming because it is long overdue. But one of the things that is interesting, I can remember reading Charles Silverman's book, In Black and White. I was in college, and it was just a tremendous book. And I still, I have got a first edition of it, mint condition. However, my other one's all marked up. But he talked about Thurgood Marshall and Jack Greenberg and the more gradualist approach, again, the Brown v Board of Education, which is so crucial, and then, you saw the resistance that took place right on the part of states to follow the law, and so forth. Then, you have got Dr. King coming along, which is basically, he respected Thurgood Marshall, but he was not a gradualist type of person. He was a guy-who-want-it-now kind of a person, and that is why he was doing the protest. Then, you get the next group, which is the question I want to ask is, did SNCC get into the Black Power issue because Stokely became so unbounded, and they trapped Brown- CC (01:13:01): No-no-no. SM (01:13:03): No? CC (01:13:03): No. I am going to give you a piece that I wrote. I think the Black Power discussion really came after the Atlantic City challenge. SM (01:13:21): And that is (19)64? CC (01:13:24): (19)64. I think up to 1964, the whole concept of SNCC and everybody else was that if you bring the problems out and you make it part of the conversation of the country, then people will in fact deal with it, and that, in fact, it was that your role was to make this situation known, to deal with, so that these guys who were in the centers of political, economic, cultural, and so forth, power, would do whatever they want, do the right things. One of the things leading up to the, and I will never forget this, one of the things leading up to the (19)64 summer project, I think this was (19)63, there were probably maybe 30, 35 bodies found in the Mississippi River. And it was raised with the people in New York Times, and it was about that much space. Nobody cared. SM (01:14:59): More than Emmett Till then? CC (01:15:01): Yeah. It was about 36 bodies found and it was not big news. The reason that Emmett Till was big news was because his mother decided to show the absolute brutality, and it shocked the Black community, and they reacted. And that is one of the profound things that affected me. And it affected a number of people who were in SNCC because they were just coming into their teenage years, therefore, they saw a lot of it. I think Emmett Till had a profound effect. But let us go back to this whole transition to Black power. Basically, what people realize at the Freedom Democratic Party is that even if you brought the issues and even if you played by all the rules and even if you were representing people who had been harmed all these years, the interests of the power structure did not care any of them, by the by. So, you see Ms. Hamer making a brilliant speech building sympathy, and Johnson cutting her off. You see that we have 13 votes to make a minority port, and then people, and Diggs and others betraying us and crumbling the thing. You see that in the church in Atlantic City, everybody, I am talking about Joe Raw, I am talking about Walter Luther, I am talking about Martin King, I am talking about Bayard Rustin, I am talking about everybody sided with the discussion of the Democrats must win, and therefore, the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party cannot win what they're rightfully there to do. And we are given some fig leave of two things in the balcony. Therefore, the message to the young people, we were saying, okay, you are told, all right, right and wrong if, it is wrong to discriminate, if it is wrong to do this, it is wrong to do that, and you play by the rules and you do the right things, this is supposed to happen. And we saw we were in a right/wrong game, and people were in a win/lose game. So, basically, we now saw what it meant in terms of win/lose. Therefore, people said it is no longer important to ask those who caused the problem to deal with the nature of the problem. We now have to look after ourselves. We now have to think through what we are doing. So, in Lowndes County, which was 80 percent Black, our model was this, we were not going to go and ask the sheriff to do a better job, we were not going to ask the probate judge and a tax collector and a tax assessor. Basically, the concept of the Lowndes County Freedom Organization was regime change. We were going to get rid of every officer who was there. Now, they want to argue, "Well, these people are not qualified. They are sharecroppers, and so forth." What we did was we created comic books that broke the law down, that people could see the law and understand their roles and responsibilities. We had a bunch of things that encourage people to vote. We had the Black Panther as a symbol because we understood that people, the literacy rate was not high. So, basically, we're using what the Indian, Mahatma Gandhi did and other people did, with people who do not have high literacy rates, they vote for a symbol. So, basically, we said, "Pull the lever for the Black Panther across straight party line vote, and then go home. Do not think about this, that or the other. Pull the lever for the Black Panther, and then go home." So, basically, what you had... And we wanted the Black Panther... And basically the Black Panther, the Democratic Party had a rooster as their symbol for the Right. We wanted a strong black symbol, so they got the, I think the panther is the mascot from Morris Brown, or one of those schools in Atlanta. Either Morris Brown or something like that. I think it is Morris Brown. And I think Ruth Howard brought the idea to us, and Jennifer drew it. So, it was a symbol, big, it was black, and we told people, "The whole thing is pull the lever for the Black Panther, and then go home," because basically, that is a strategy that is been tried with high [inaudible]. And our objective was regime change where our view was, if you are going to get rid of police brutality, then you need to be the sheriff. If you are going to get rid of unfair tax practices, then you need to be the sheriff. If you want the federal dollars that come into the county to work in your way, you need to run the county. So, that is basically the basis on which Stokely starts saying, "You cannot ask these people, after what we saw in Atlantic City, to keep doing for you what you need to start doing for yourself." Therefore, the Black people, which is what he would be dealing with in Lowndes County, needed to assume power. And during the Meredith March, that whole discussion was capitalized in the phrase Black Power. Now, I think that in (19)63, King said, that is why you have that money, "I have a dream that is deeply rooted in the American dream." What the younger generation was saying is, "We do not believe that that dream exists for us unless we, in fact, bring it about ourselves, and therefore we have to move for power." Now, you have got to also remember that at that point, and you said you were doing stuff on jazz and arts, and so forth, you have got to remember, and if you look into this whole discussion, at that point we were Negros, Black was a fighting word, we were considered ugly, our features were considered ugly, things that we were not beautiful were us. So, the whole discussion on Black power, at least on the cultural side, had a very profound effect in terms of how Black people saw themselves, because in this sense, in this country, because of what was going on, you had a situation where the closer you were to White, the better you were off, the blacker you were... So, the whole thing about if you are White, you are right, if you light, stick around, and if you're Black, get back. There was just all, just, negativity. So, my sense is that while, in terms of the White community, in terms of the White activist community, there was a sense where you are rejecting us, and on the White community in terms of the power structure, you are challenging us, you are not connected to us. In terms of the Black community, I think at least on the cultural side, it was very profound in terms of changing their sense of themselves. But also, I think, on the political side, it started bringing the Black communities to start thinking about how, within their communities, they take responsibility for their own existence. So, I think that people really do not understand, at least for me, how profound that Atlantic City thing was, because it basically said, even if you play by the rules, you cannot win. There is no such thing as right and wrong, there is only win and lose. It is a power discussion. It is a discussion of who will run and who will control. It is not about good and bad, and wrong, it is about win and lose. That was the message I got. And at 23 years old, it was very interesting to me. SM (01:25:00): I know there has been two biographies out on Fannie Lou Hamer, and that convention in (19)64 is mentioned in history books, on Johnson doing what he did, and those kinds of things. I do not think there has been an in-depth- CC (01:25:15): You are right. SM (01:25:16): ... that there has not been an in-depth concentrated, just on that convention, on that movement, on those few days. Someone needs to... I am just bringing this up. CC (01:25:29): No-no, I agree with. SM (01:25:30): Someone needs to write a book that just needs to cover what happened there, what led up to it, what happened during the days, what followed, the impact it is had on history or why history has not covered it better. And Fannie Lou Hamer has really risen- CC (01:25:54): But not only that, not only that. In addition to the Black Power discussion, that convention was responsible for the shift of the Dixie crash of the Republican Party. Basically, there is a straight line from that convention to them shifting to the Republican Party. SM (01:26:16): Wow. CC (01:26:18): So, I think this is a very big event. SM (01:26:23): Fannie Lou Hamer did not live very long, did she? I know she was overweight and she had high blood pressure and- CC (01:26:31): She was on a sharecropper, you had been beaten. Other than that, yeah, I do not think she made it to 60. SM (01:26:38): Yeah. I think, getting that same timeframe, maybe it is how the media tries to portray things, but there has always been this perception of, well, when Thurgood Marshall did the Brown... the decision came through based on his efforts at the Supreme Court, Dr. King was there to make the comment as the younger person, "Well, the gradualist approach is fine. Congratulations for doing this, but we're doing non-violent protest..." SM (01:27:03): Congratulations for doing this, but we're doing nonviolent protest and all the other things. And the Montgomery Bus Boycott was happening and then- CC (01:27:10): Yeah, but King did not volunteer. He was drafted now. SM (01:27:17): I know. But then you got the picture and the picture I am talking about, the historic picture of Dr. King with his arms crossed and Stokely's talking to him. But basically, it is a picture, it is a scene from, I do not know, they were together on some stage and I think basically, he told Dr. King, your time has passed. CC (01:27:39): Well, you know- SM (01:27:41): It was referring to Bayard Rustin. He was referring to the big four. He was, your guy's time has passed. CC (01:27:46): It's interesting. We, in 1968 and before King, and it must have been two or three months before King died, was killed. Excuse me. He did not died. I mean, well he died as a result of being shot. We had a meeting at the Pismo Hotel here with SNCC people and they wanted to know if we were going to participate in the Poor People's March. And we told him no. Said, are you going to disrupt it? No. He said, are you going to disrupt it? Because the rumors were going to disrupt it. No. Are you going to participate? No. And because we had always been competing, we had always been all this stuff with King. We had a great deal of respect for King, even though we were always in competition with him. And everybody from SNCC was there. Everybody from SCLC was there. And we said to him, you cannot ask those who press you to deal with the nature of your oppression. And King got quiet and we were told after we let got the press, because I mean he understood that the whole thing that he tried, it was going to be a big, big difference. Because King was coming. Because remember after King gave that speech in (19)63 about which everybody celebrates. King gave some hell of a speeches after that about the Vietnam War. SM (01:29:29): Oh yeah. CC (01:29:29): About poverty. It is like he never gave those speeches. Mean he understood more than most. When you read King stuff, he was a brilliant, brilliant man. And one of the things I do respect, the older I get the more respectful. Philip Randolph, Bayard, Martin King, Thurgood Marshall, I think we brought a lot of energy and we brought a lot of less fear and so forth. And that is what we should bring. Fortunately we had people like Ella Baker who helped us bring perspective, Bayard, who helped bring perspective and so forth. But that is what younger generations do. They go through barriers that people did not think they could go through. And my sense is that as you point out, there is always the transition. We are always going to the next phase. And that is not a bad thing. SM (01:30:37): I remember we had Tommy Smith on our campus, and Tommy, when he gave the Black Power fist, Harry Edwards was the graduate student. He was at Cornell too in (19)69, but Tommy and John Carlos, both of them, the perception out there and he's had to repeat it over and over again and correct people. He said, I was never a Black Panther. I was never a Black Panther that was about Black Power. And he, again, he really got upset. And he was like, now remember, if you're writing an article in the paper about this, I was never a Black Panther. I never supported the Black Panthers. I am a Black Power person. CC (01:31:19): Well, they do not care that, they just did not want them to quote you. Basically those guys point is that you embarrassed the United States in that because in the world state, because you got to remember in (19)69 and so forth, there was still that Russian United States Cold War discussion. And therefore the United States trying to portray itself as the defender of democracy. And the Russians can show to the world, particularly Africa, that this is not serious. Their salute in Mexico in (19)68 had profound international implications for the United States vis-a-vis the Cold War discussion in Africa. And that is why it seared into this country. And one of the things that now, and I guess I will do some writing at some point pretty soon, but it does seem to me that all this stuff has context. So an event that functions here has layers all over the place. And I think that salute. And so therefore the people who are writing this stuff want to say, you embarrassed us and we will say the most despicable things that we think we can say about you. And that is what it is about. SM (01:32:50): And I think Ralph Boston, he did not do the fist, but he did something comparable. He was doing the long jump. And there were many female African American athletes who did the same thing and they concentrated on those two guys. CC (01:33:06): Yeah, because remember that was the elite. See 100 and 200. That is the elite. That is the glamour piece. So therefore when you have in the competition of supremacy, use supremacy, my guys are faster than yours, our guys are stronger than yours, all that kind of stuff, boxing was all that. To get those guys and the heavyweights, those the heavyweight boxers to get those guys saying, making their statement at that time was a profound issue. If these guys were 6,000 meat runners, nobody would have cared. SM (01:33:54): George Foreman though with the- CC (01:33:56): He put the American flag. SM (01:33:56): Flag- CC (01:33:57): I mean they loved it. They loved it. SM (01:33:59): Muhammad Ali was against the war and he paid a heavy price for it. It is interesting. I was up in California and I went to the statue. I had to drive to San Jose because I wanted to see it after Tommy came to our campus. He is a great guy. CC (01:34:14): Well yeah, he was. SM (01:34:15): Ah Mike, and he is well-educated. Smart as a- CC (01:34:17): And not only that, they said in terms of running, he really has some techniques because he broke... you also have to realize that in (19)68, I remember Jim Ryan, I do not know if you remember him. SM (01:34:33): Yes, I do. CC (01:34:35): Okay. SM (01:34:35): Long distance runner. CC (01:34:35): A long distance runner, 1500 meters. And I remember I was with my wife in Montreal and remember listening to the announcer say, blacks will win the short distance races because there is no strategy involved, it is just muscle. And where talks about strategy and so forth, whites were going to dominate that. And that was the year Kipchoge Keino came up. I mean- SM (01:35:06): Since then- CC (01:35:07): Since then, I mean it is Africa, East Africa and East Africa has been dominant. If it is not Somalia, it is Kenya, so forth. Well keep going with your questions cause- SM (01:35:19): Yeah, this is a kind of general question here. I did want to mention that something that maybe you did not know the third person, the guy who finished second, Carlos was third. CC (01:35:31): Right Carlos was third. SM (01:35:32): And he died just before Tommy came to the campus. And I believe Tommy went to his funeral. I forget what country he was from, but did you know that guy supported them a hundred percent? CC (01:35:45): Oh yeah. SM (01:35:45): And Tommy said, do you want me to raise my fist too? That is not known by a lot of people, but Tommy explains it in the book. They liked that guy, the guy that finished second who was totally in support of what the athletes were doing there. And now he said, no, we have to do this and thanks, but no, do not put your fist up. CC (01:36:07): Yeah. Right. SM (01:36:09): So when you look at the boomer generation as a whole, and of course boomers are those born between (19)46 and (19)64. CC (01:36:17): Yeah (19)65. SM (01:36:17): And including all ethnic backgrounds now, all backgrounds. What are your thoughts on that generation? How important were they in the Civil Rights Movement? Because some people are saying, well, they were only 18 or 19 years old when most of the Civil Rights Movement in its heyday was the (19)50s through to maybe (19)65. And so in the boomer generation, they're only coming into, they're going to college starting in (19)65. But they were involved in Freedom Summer, they were involved in a lot of things. But what are your thoughts on this generation now, 70 million strong, that is now reaching the age of 65 this year? CC (01:36:58): One of the things that really is interesting, I think the boomer generation helped to change America. And one of the things that is not generally talked about but seen by people like myself is that the boomer generation fed off of a lot of what we did. And what surprised me, if you look at the letter that Clinton wrote to his draft ward where he talked about the Civil Rights Movement, and he did not know what the hell he was ever running. People thought that they were trying to embarrass him by putting out that letter that he wrote. They were profoundly impacted in terms of what we were trying to do. I think, also, that they opened up for people who may not have been boomers, technically, some space, for example, one of the things that you got to remember right after, let us talk about the Black Power thing discussion. Right after that, you had, and coming out of the Civil Rights Movement and literally coming out of it, you had the Cesar Chavez piece, and you're talking about some of the SNCC people going out to help Cesar Chavez. You had Mario Savio who was in fact in Mississippi. You had the whole discussion of the role of women in the movement and in the country where Casey and Mary King and those guys started a whole lot of that conversation and amplifying on it. You had, after the Black Power discussion, you had gray power where a lot of senior citizens started- SM (01:39:27): They accused. CC (01:39:29): Yeah started talking about that. You had the discussion of gay power. You had a whole sense of, so basically while the boomers may not have been old enough to be in central figures in the Civil Rights Movement, they were the megaphones that had kept, or the mechanism, that kept what the discussion was in the Civil Rights Movement reverberating in a lot of places and a lot of things that kept the society. Because what could have happened was you had a situation where you had that and then things closed up. No-no. They not only did it, but expanded in terms of the view of even stuff like [inaudible] giving him space or Richard Pryor giving him space. So my sense is, one of the things that I said about the Black Power discussion, at least in the black community, the cultural boundaries were broken in terms of poetry, in terms of music, in terms of art, all that stuff were there. And I think in terms of the boomer generation, the boundaries were broken. The kind of industrial Father Knows Best, Ozzie and Harriet- SM (01:41:12): Leave it to Beaver. CC (01:41:13): Leave It to Beaver. All of that stuff started and the (19)60s and late (19)60s and not only that, the other thing that started, and you see it right now with this little stuff you have here. You got to remember in the (19)50s coming out of Civil Rights Movement, you had two or three magazines. You had, Look, you had Life, you had Time. Those were the big dominant things. We had big dominant things. And then people started beginning to diversify. I think what the Boomer generation brought was a sense of diversity in terms of interest. You did not have to fit into a mold in order to be accepted. You did not have to look like this and act like this and be this. Because what happened, it was order in the (19)50s. What you had in the (19)60s was the breaking down of the disorder, particularly in the black community. But then that the breaking down of that order in terms of the hierarchical stuff. So now Look and Life does not exist anymore. People have a thousand magazines. I think what the boomer generation brought to this situation was diversity and the ability for America to be able to have to accept Mao's A Thousand Flowers so that black people could be this, that or the other. They did not have to be in this box. People who were gay did not have to be in that box. Women did not have to be in their place. People who are geeks are now accepted. That is another group that quote been viewed as such and such. So I am saying that I think probably the hallmark of the boomer generation and what is their ability to accept diversity. Now the other thing is that they have things that allow them to facilitate. We were talking about Facebook, we were talking about... Things are not always in the (19)50s when we were coming along in the early (19)60s, it was always from the top down. Now a lot of it comes from the bottom up because people with blogs, people with this, that and the other can communicate to each other that they do not have to watch ABC, CBS TV in order to get the impressions. There are a lot of people who were making other pressures outside of the hierarchy. So the boomer generation disintegrated the hierarchical structure that existed, that was brought to us by guess by the industrial age. SM (01:44:33): You hit it right on the target there. It is almost as if when we discussed the culture wars that we have seen since the (19)80s, (19)90s or whatever, and particularly today, it is trying to change the culture, possibly trying to get it back to the way it was. And actually I am really studying what is going on in England right now. And I think the undercurrent in England, there is a bunch of hooligans and taking advantage of things and copycats, yes. But I think this is a deep-seated problem. This has to do with as Dr. King would always say, we got to deal with the economy because it's not always, it is race, but it is also about your economic status. And I think what is happening in London today and what is happening all over England is the fact that the challenge to multiculturalism, and when I see people who start pointing fingers at the reason why we have problems is because of them. It is because it is a reaction. It is very reactionary and it is scary to me. And that is what the culture wars are. CC (01:45:49): Well I think also with the guy in Norway, his view was we are going to kill anybody who supports this kind of stuff. So that is my sense. But I think that the next phase, I think big phase we have to fight is the economic discussion. And that is going to be, a lot of it now centers on education. I think that is the next big Civil Rights fight. Where I think we have finished, my view is that we are finished with the political, the vote and so forth. We are going to have counteractions in terms of the Republicans trying to narrow the vote, trying to talk about frauds and cheating and stuff. But with Obama, there is a sense that that last barrier as President is broken. Because when I was coming up, the view of a black man being president was probably one of the for taken absurdities. Now, I think the whole question of who is able to participate in the economy, which is the issue that you talked about in England and other places, who is going to be able to participate in the economy? Do you have such a hierarchical piece where 1 percent of the highest income people all have as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent? How do you now begin to, given the diversity I just talked about and intellectual property becoming the raw materials of driving the economic engine, how do you now and particularly the sciences, how do you now deal with new literacies? How do you begin to deal with math and science? How do you now begin to think through the use of computer literacy? How do you now begin to, this is the new struggle. How do you now, the economic struggle, which has always been the struggle. Not all this other stuff is race and gender and so forth, the real core issue. Because African-Americans not here in the United States, not because white people did not like them, they were economic implements. They were in agriculture and agrarian economy. They were economic units needed for labor and therefore that is why they're here. And the issues that we have, have not reached beyond that. We have not dealt with the economic issues. And we are now given all these other layers, the legal layer, the segregation layer, the political layer. Now we now have to focus on the economic issues. SM (01:49:06): And it is interesting because this is a time when labor unions are going down. CC (01:49:10): Oh, they are going down. SM (01:49:12): And I can remember being in California before I moved back east and we were told where I worked, if you were ever to talk to anybody, a union, we would fire you. We met as a group over in Daley City just to hear someone talk to this whole group of people. And we did not know we were being spied on. CC (01:49:39): But here is the thing, labor unions are going down for two kind of reasons. Two or three reasons. But you got to remember, for example, the labor unions come out of the industrial kinds of things or government. Now Google basically what they have, you go out there and see their campus and all that. They get these kids and these young people and they create a different environment. Facebook, all this stuff where the new industries are. It is a whole different reality. So the same diversity that destroyed the look and the life and so forth is the same diversity that also mitigated the influence of the unions. Right now you and I do consulting. Right now. All I need is a computer and a cell phone and I have a laptop or I right now it is getting down to where all you need is a iPad and you can be anywhere and be your office. It is a whole different work environment. And so unions are going to have a tough time if they do not think through different models of what's going to go on. SM (01:51:10): When we are getting down there. We are going on to my next tape here in a second here. But when you look at the presidents, during the time that boomers have been alive, we are talking about Truman through Obama or basically in your lifetime, who are the presidents that, I think the word I want to use is genuine, who generally they may have passed legislation that helped people of color and African Americans. But in your studies, in your life experiences, you worked for President Clinton, but you have seen all these presidents in your life. Who are the genuine ones and who were the fakes? CC (01:51:58): In terms of the issues like- SM (01:51:59): In terms of caring about people who are having a harder time in this society? CC (01:52:07): Well, I think it is interesting. I think probably if you talk to black businessmen and people in that group of people, the president that they think was most helpful to them is Richard Nixon. Because remember Nixon was the one, remember Nixon came in after the riots, the rebellions and Nixon's statement was, what we are going to do is make all these guys entrepreneurs. And he opened up at Commerce through secretary Stands, Sue secretary Stands a minority business development agent was called OBME, Office of Business Minority Enterprise or something like that. Basically Nixon truly believed that the path to salvation was to create businesses that would do that. So he believed in that. I think the other person I think who was familiar and on the voting rights piece and so forth, I would say Johnson was on the voting rights piece. I think he was particularly helpful and he knew the passing of voter rights legislation and so forth. He knew that it would have a huge impact on the Democratic Party in terms of what would happen to it, particularly the Dixiecrats. So he put skin in the game and at the end of the day, while I disagree with him on the war and so forth, I think that on this issue mean he was very important, given as much as presidents can be important. I think the other one who had a profound impact I think was Clinton. And I think Clinton's contribution was his point was, I am going to have a cabinet that looks like America. And so therefore Clinton had somebody in a lot of positions of authority and power that they were not, including Department of Agriculture. He had Espy there, Commerce, he obviously Ron Brown. So it was no longer if you had a black, you put them at HUD. It was no longer the Weaver Pat Harris discussion. Almost any position in the thing you can have, there have only two positions I guess blacks have not really been cabinet secretaries, that is Treasury and Defense. But if somebody nominates a black person for a position, George Bush did for Secretary of State. It's no longer a big issue. So I think the three presidents that probably on the issue that, Nixon on business, Johnson on voting rights, and Clinton, on having a sense that this country needs to diversify in terms of its cabinet. One of the things that when I was at Commerce with Ron Brown, we went to a meeting, Brown called a meeting of the senior staff and they were all white males. So Ron walked in there and said, I do- CC (01:56:03): Ron walked in there and said, "I do not ever want to sit in a meeting that looks like this again." Let me tell you, bells went off. I mean they would ... But the other thing that ... And Ron was good, because I mean, he was very aggressive in terms of promoting American businesses abroad. I mean, the Republicans loved him, because he would be able to open up to Africa, to China, to wherever he went. He was that good in that sense. And he was a fighter in the sense that when Gingrich and them wanted to downsize the commerce, housing, and get rid of education, he fought them tooth and nail. Cisneros gave in, but Ron fought them tooth and nail. And all these guys who were SESs, the top of the food chain who had no respect for Black people before Ron came in, grew to love Ron because he saved their jobs. SM (01:57:16): Wow. CC (01:57:17): So my sense is, I think that the three presidents, I would say Lyndon Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton, those were the three. SM (01:57:31): You talked about the (19)64 convention, but how about the (19)68 convention? Because the one in Chicago that was on TV- CC (01:57:39): Oh, the Vietnam allotment. SM (01:57:40): Yeah, and the year 1968, the loss of- CC (01:57:44): Was quite a year. But I think that year spoke a lot to diversifying. I mean, you began to see the coming apart. I mean, when I listened to Pat Buchanan, I do not know if you ever see him on Morning Joe and stuff like that. SM (01:58:04): No. CC (01:58:05): I mean, they want to go back to the (19)50s. I mean, basically (19)68 was the continuation of creating diversity, creating a sense of, we all need ... Now, I mean, because we do not need to be a Vietnam. We do not want to be drafted to fight wars that we do not want to fight. Ultimately now what they have done is gotten rid of the draft and mechanized now with drones, and now the people who are poor are fighting. So, I mean, I am not sure the outcomes of (19)68 what everybody wanted it, so they ended the draft. But now people are now forced who are poor. They got no place else to do. But God, when you look at all those deaths, notices, they're either from towns, not in the big cities, and they're all poor people. They are all poor people. And now you also got a lot more mercenaries. I mean, that is, I think what- SM (01:59:13): I only got about four more questions here. CC (01:59:17): Okay, because I got 10 more minutes. SM (01:59:18): Okay. I am trying to remember. It was the (19)68 convention. Oh, my God, I am forgetting what I was going to ask. Had to do with the ... Oh, the psyche. The boomer generation was made up of 70 million people. CC (01:59:34): Right. SM (01:59:37): And that year was unbelievable in so many ways. It was so tragic. And what happens is when you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s and the boomer generation, they talk about that really 95 percent were really uninvolved in anything and they were going on with their daily lives and everything. CC (01:59:53): That is true. SM (01:59:56): Only 5 percent were really involved in any kind of an activism of any kind, including conservatives too, those conservatives. But I have always felt deep down inside that that year, subconsciously along with what happened in (19)63, subconsciously left a permanent mark on all. For the generation to see two major figures assassinated, to see ... The war in Vietnam was, we were supposed to be in control, and then Tet happened. We saw the conventions with politicians pointing and swearing at each other. And then there is so many worries in the city. It is just a terrible time. CC (02:00:42): No, I agree with you. See, I think it is, I mean, I would not say "a terrible year." I'd say clearly a year of transition. SM (02:00:49): Can you hold- You were [inaudible] CC (02:01:00): I think those people who say that basic 5 percent of activists, probably correct, because I think change is never brought about, it is never a mass movement. I think, however, however, just like I was saying at Howard and just like I was saying at varied people, that the people who were not activists but are more passive, tend to look at what's going on and decide who they're going to support in terms of who they will be supportive of. And I think that for a lot of people in America, they were comfortable with the changes, but were made to be afraid of them. I mean, part of the reason that you have ... And disorder is part of the reason you had Nixon. But it does seem to me that ... I think that for a lot of the boomers and for the younger ones, this was where things were going. They were being empowered. For a lot of those who were older at the time, the country was going to hell in a hand basket, and they did not know what to do. Things were moving too fast. How could this happen? So I mean, my sense is that, yeah, I mean, (19)68 was a very profound year. But I think that while it was a profound year, probably only 5 percent of the people really made it a profound year. SM (02:02:49): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and end, and what was a watershed moment? CC (02:02:57): For me, I mean, I think watershed moment, there's several watershed moments in the (19)60s. The Freedom Rides and the sit-ins were watershed moments. The Cuban Missile Crisis, watershed moment. We became aware of the threat of nuclear warfare in a way that we did not really ... I mean for me, I was in school and I was ... (19)63, a watershed moment. As I said earlier, (19)64, the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, a watershed moment. For me also, (19)67 was a watershed moment, I mean just personally, because (19)67, I went to what was considered a war crimes tribunal convened by Bertrand Russell and Jean-Paul Sartre. SM (02:03:58): Wow. CC (02:03:58): I participated in that and understood what was going on. Obviously, as we said, (19)68 was another watershed. So there were several. I mean, the Freedom Rides and the sit-ins began to break down the old order, or challenge the old order that was broken down in (19)54. (19)62, everybody was scared shitless because of thermonuclear warfare. (19)63, how could this happen in America? I think those were the times that made a difference. SM (02:04:47): Was Kent State in there too? CC (02:04:52): I would say Kent State. I would say Jackson. I would say Jackson State, all that stuff that happened on the campus. I mean, all of it was very ... I mean, the (19)60s were very intense because, I mean, a new order was being established, and as that new order was established, you had some disorder. SM (02:05:20): Just a little question, and that is not about Black power, but about the Black Panthers. Some people say when we talk about violence, there was a weather underground. The anti-war movement was not violent because they were very frustrated. Some people say that the Black Panthers, even though they had the food program, that they were violent in their- CC (02:05:41): Right. I mean, their argument is that they were self-defense. You know, first of all, I do not know much about the Black Panthers. My sense is they were ... I think it is SNCC. I mean, I think part of the Panthers that felt the need to relate to the community that they were in and move with them to make change was probably the part that I am most sympathetic to. I think the part that felt the need to show machismo and so forth and audacity and the name-calling and so forth, while I think it was all right, I mean, I guess for young people to feel that that was doing something, the older I get, my sense is that it was not a big change. I mean, my sense is, look, the older I get, the more I understand is, that revolution really is the people who you involve in the discussion. It is not guns. I mean, guns will become a reaction, but at the end of the day, basically when you look at the history of revolution, especially our armed violence and so forth, after one side wins or the other, it is always a then what? And generally when one side wins an armed struggle, it is a continuation of the same, because the people who were excluded before are still excluded now. So my sense is that the big fight is, how do you include those who are excluded, and how you bring them into the discussion and conversation where they can find their own voice? I mean, I think that is long term. That is very tough. And so I mean, I think to the terms of question of the Panthers, to the extent that they involved themselves in the urban communities, that is probably a good thing. But I think the kind of leading with your frustration led to a certain kind of violence, and that violence was felt mostly in the Black community with the killing of each other and all that kind of retribution and foolishness. I mean- SM (02:08:42): I know in California they surrounded the capital in Sacramento. CC (02:08:46): Yeah, I saw that, but at the end of the day, that was nice and a good picture. But probably, at the end of the day, they probably shot more of their own people than they did other than that. SM (02:08:58): And then of course, something that was not related to it was the guns at Cornell University in (19)69. The organizer was Harry Edwards, and- CC (02:09:11): Yeah, I mean, but it is all theater. I mean, to me, that is all theater. It's nice. I mean, the same way I view Cornel West. He is all theater. SM (02:09:18): Two more questions, and this is a very important one because I have asked it to everybody. This was a question that we asked Senator Edmund Muskie in 1995 when we took a group of students to Washington. And they came up with a question because they had seen videos of the 1968 year as a whole. And the question was this, "Due to the divisions that were taking place in the 1960s and the early (19)70s between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war, or those who were against the war, or for the troops, against the troops, whether ... Will the boomer generation of 70 million go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healed?" And is healing even an issue here? The Vietnam Memorial was built obviously to try to heal some of the veterans and their families. It was a non-political statement. It was geared toward the vets. But even Jan Scruggs in his book, To Heal A Nation, says that he hopes it goes beyond the vets, that it plays a little part in healing the nation. Do you think it's possible to heal from these divisions? CC (02:10:27): Oh, yeah. I mean, oh, yeah. My sense is this. I mean, I am going to go back to what I said earlier. The Civil War, you had two sides. I mean, you had the industrial north conquering the agrarian south and replacing one economic system with the other, and people were locked in, and the whole bunch of stuff that happened where the north brought the Black community in to solidify their power. I mean, so they never got over it. I mean, I am not sure they are over it yet. But I think in terms of the generation, the boomer generation, if you can isolate them out and the people who were activists and so forth, I do not have a sense that ... I mean, I think, as I said earlier, that what the boomer generation is going to be noted for is that it created space for many. And so therefore, the creating of space for Blacks, [inaudible] for gays, women, this, that, the other, I mean, people have this space. I mean, it was not necessarily ... The boomer generation did not so much create. There was a lot of conflict, but it was not a zero-sum game, which the Civil War was. I win, you lose. The boomer generation, I think, created a possibility where you had multiple winners, and I think that is ... I mean, I may hear, some would say, "Well, people thought before Black power was the good part of the civil rights movement and after that was the bad part." Or, women and men, I do not see them going after each other. I mean, I do not see gays and straights. I mean, I do not see ... I think, well, let us take for the gay community. I mean, you now have in several places. You are not going to have it in Alabama anytime soon, or some places there. But at least Perry, even in his ignorance, had to say, "Well, if the people in New York want it, let them have it." And my sense is that space is being created. I mean, even those who say, "Well, there's no place in the United States for this kind of activity," they're not the dominant discussion. People view as, "Hey, if the people in the state want to ..." I mean, and so forth. Or while he had this whole thing about Obama, whether he is legitimate, whether he was born in the United States, now he's being treated like every other president. Why are not you saving me, you dumb son of a bitch? I am just saying to you that, I mean, I do not think that the boomer generation and the actions that were going on and that created a zero-sum game. They created more space for more people, and therefore the diversity allowed various people in various ways to coexist. I mean, I do not have that view. SM (02:14:32): My last question deals a little bit about legacy. If you could put it in just a nutshell here, how did your experiences at Howard, your experiences with SNCC, even your relationship with Mr. Rustin and CORE, the experience of being one of the main young leaders of the March on Washington in 1963, how have these played a part in your life post-(19)60s and (19)70s? Because I know that you have been involved in many leadership roles. You still are. CC (02:15:15): Right. SM (02:15:15): I have read your background and one thing that always sticks out is that you seem to be a person that always wants to help people who really need help. CC (02:15:29): Well, if I- SM (02:15:30): You stand out there. CC (02:15:31): Yeah. Well, my sense is this. Here is my view. I think my worldview has been defined by the things that you talked about, and it was interesting. I was active for a long time and then I was not active, and now I am beginning to think about these issues again. And it seems to me that my view at 22, 23 is still my view today, my worldview today. I am surprised at ... I mean, I have refined it in terms of historical context, influence of more information. But my sense is that, you try to work with the people who have problems and get them to have their own voice about what is to be done. I am now more convinced ... Probably the big change, I mean, I am more convinced that probably if you want revolution, nonviolence is important in that in the sense that it is not important ... I mean, you do not make change by shooting the people who are in power. You make change by making sure that those who are powerless are empowered. I mean, I think that is the big thing in my mind. I also think that time and energy is more important than money. I also think that it is also important to be an actor and not a reactor. I think that change and diversity are important, and even if that the world is much better being diverse than it is being one color, or being Black and white in the sense that ... So, I mean, those are the things that ... I also think that war has no use, because basically it's fought for the interest of the economically powerful, and poor people are the ones who fight the wars, die, and get nothing from it. Those are the things that ... I have not changed my views on any of that. SM (02:18:13): Those are prophetic. You have made some very prophetic things, that you need to put these into a book. CC (02:18:24): Thank you. SM (02:18:26): Because I think that good young scholars and students and... CC (02:18:29): Yeah. No, I am going to start writing. I mean, people have said I need to start writing and I need to start doing that. I mean, I am going to probably just do ... I will get there. I will get there. SM (02:18:48): I guess the last thing is, I think you have already said it, what do you think your lasting legacy is when people ... You are going to live another 50 years, right? CC (02:18:58): Right, whatever. SM (02:18:59): Well, what will people say when they think of Courtland? And secondly, the legacy of the civil rights movement and the legacy of the boomer generation, because they are in [inaudible] CC (02:19:11): I think the legacy of the civil rights movement is that it broke down barriers that were assumed in the United States. That is going to be the importance of that, the racial barriers. I think the second part of that is that it empowered the boomer generation in terms of music, in terms of lifestyle, in terms of various kinds of things. I mean, it was the inspiration for the boomer generation. I think for the boomer generation, as I said earlier, it created space and diversity for Americans to live in, and they did not have to be in Black and white. They could be in whatever colors they wanted to be. I do not know if you saw that movie where it was Black and white, and I mean, the diversity gave the sense of life and explored it. I mean, and I think that it also brought technologies into the conversation that helped give power to more and more people. I am talking about communications or whatever. I mean, just both with the computer and the cell phone. They made a huge difference. And in terms of, I mean, I do not disagree with what King said the night before he was killed, "Tell them I tried to help somebody." I mean, do not tell them this, that, because material things at the end of the day, I mean, as you know, I am not a person who believes in poverty. I would let you know that right away. But I do not believe that it is what it's about. I believe that working to help people and to broaden the base of democracy is probably the important thing. SM (02:21:33): Is there any final comments you want to state, or- CC (02:21:35): No-no, I am good. SM (02:21:37): Any questions you thought I was going to ask? Or- CC (02:21:40): No-no. I got to get out of here. SM (02:21:41): I got to take three or four more pictures of you. CC (02:21:43): Okay. Okay. SM (02:21:44): I guess we will do it this way. CC (02:21:45): Okay. SM (02:21:47): I guess with your glasses off. CC (02:21:50): Okay. All righty. SM (02:21:52): Okay. Reset one. CC (02:21:53): Mm-hmm. SM (02:21:57): Reset two. And that picture in the background looks great. There we go. Ready, set, three. And last but not least, I will do one with grip here. Ready, set, four. That is it. CC (02:22:16): Okay, good. SM (02:22:17): Good. CC (02:22:18): All right. You got a cab up here? SM (02:22:20): No, I drove my car. CC (02:22:21): Oh, you drove here. SM (02:22:22): Yeah. CC (02:22:22): I did not see a car. SM (02:22:23): Yeah. I will just take this in the next room. CC (02:22:29): Okay. SM (02:22:29): Thank you very much for spending the time with me. CC (02:22:33): No problem. I have a 6:30 appointment downtown. SM (02:22:35): Oh, whoa. CC (02:22:38): Yeah, I told them that. SM (02:22:38): Let me get my stuff out of here. 30. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Courtland Cox Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cox, Courtland, 1941- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political activists--United States; Cox, Courtland, 1941--Interviews Description An account of the resource Courtland Cox spent his childhood between Trinidad and New York City. He went to Howard University and eventually became a civil rights activist. He joined a group called the Non-violent Action Group (NAG) to fight against white supremacy and segregation and then became a member of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). Throughout his years as an activist, Cox helped organized groups in order to prevent segregation from occurring in the world. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.66a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.66b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 142:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f6e2e9c06fa5a2ac33a87fe2a657e087.jpg 10b8a0ad3b4abd697b8fa025b5c473bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-08-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ron Robinson Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ron Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson served as the Director of the Long America's For Freedom (1977-1979), President of the United State Youth Council (1983-1985) and President of the International Youth Year Commission. He was also an advisor at the U.S. Department of Education during the Reagan administration. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.<br /><br /><br /></span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:13 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Howdy Doody; Nuclear threat; Conservatives; Leftist; Senator Jim Buckley; Lee Edwards; The Young Americans for Freedom; Senator Barry Goldwater; Vietnam War; New left."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Howdy Doody; Nuclear threat; Conservatives; Leftist; Senator Jim Buckley; Lee Edwards; The Young Americans for Freedom; Senator Barry Goldwater; Vietnam War; New left.</span> Subject LCSH Lawyers; Robinson, Ron--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ron Robinson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robinson, Ron ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Robinson, Ron--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ron Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson served as the Director of the Long America's For Freedom (1977-1979), President of the United State Youth Council (1983-1985) and President of the International Youth Year Commission. He was also an advisor at the U.S. Department of Education during the Reagan administration. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.<br /></span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.100 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:13 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8ec35eedcffb56ec8985c0475ab8fbb3.pdf b2022d3122b2edf107c0891232bcf46a PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON E E N 1 V E R S 1 T Y S T A T E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K E T A zedeC T M E N T BIN GHA MTO N UNI VERSITY S Y M P H O N Y C ONcER T O & ARIA CO M PE TIT IO N Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:30 p. m. Casadesus Recital Hal l �PROGRAM Concerto # 2 in F minor, Op. 21, I * Movement................. C o n c e r t o Trombone in f minor, 2 & 3 movements......Gréndahl William Marsiglia, trombone Chopin SungKyun Ryu, piano ConcertoM arimba, 1° movement............................ ............Ewazen “Eri tu, che macchiavi” from Un ballo in maschera........... Adam Goldenberg, marimba Verdi HeePyoung Oh, baritone Cello Concerto in e minor, I ’ movement ..................... S R R Xander Edwards, violoncello “O zittre nicht”from Die Zauberﬂo’te.................................Meee. Mozart Meghan Cakalli, soprano 5 “Glitter and be Gay” from Condide.... .........cinssrssasivssssssas .. Bernstein A th Cello Concerto in e minor, 4 movement..................... Eric Wuu, violoncello ..........Elgar Christina Kompar, soprano Der Schwanendrehrer, I” MOVEMENL.......... cososassns, weveerenennnn . Hindemith “Che gelida manina” from La Boheme Puccini Benjamin Pochily, viola EunHwan Bae, tenor “Ah...tardai troppo...O luce di quest” anima f rom Linda di Chamounix Donizetti Kathleen J asinskas, soprano Special thanks to accompanists Pej Reitz & John Isenberg, and our Jury, Professors Stephen Zank, Paul Schleuse & April Lucas �Binghamton U niversity Music Department’s U P C O M I N G E V E N T S $ M ﬁ w é ﬂ ﬁ w b ﬁ r y ﬁ t ﬁ w Saturday, September 24 – Binghamton University Symphony Orchestra Alumni Jam – 10:30 – 11:30 a.m. – FA111 – Free Thursday, October 6 – MidDay Concert – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Thursday, October 13 – MidDay Concert – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Sunday, October 16 – Mobius Ensemble and Friends: Chamber Music Masterpieces – 3 p.m. – Watters T h e a t e r $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students ~ Thursday, October 20 – MidDay Concer t – 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Friday, October 21 – TriCities Opera presents “Madame But terﬂy” – 8 p.m. – The Forum Theatre – call (607) 7720400 for tickets Saturday, October 22 – Family Weekend Concert (Harpur Chorale, Women’s Chorus and the University Symphony Orchestra) – 3 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater – free Sunday, October 23 – TriCities Opera presents “Madame Butterﬂy” – 3 p.m. – The Forum Theatre – call (607) 7720400 for tickets Sunday, October 23 – Alumni Organ Recital: John Novak (MM ’06) – 4 p.m. – First Presbyterian Church, Binghamton – $1 0 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Sunday, October 23 – Binghamton University Symphony Orchestra: Concerto and Aria Competition Concert – 7:30 p.m. – Osterhout Concert T he at er $1 0 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Thursday, October 27 – MidDay Concert – 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall – free Friday, October 28 – Pianist Margaret Reitz presents “Forty Fingers” with pianists Ida TiliTrebicka, Amy Heyman and Tina Toglia – 8 p .m. – Casadesus Recital Hall $6 general public; $3 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; free for students Call t h e A nderson Center B o x O ﬀice a t 7 7 7 A RT S f o r t ickets. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 audio discs Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 10:05 39:08 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145509">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145509</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Concerto & Aria Competition, September 18, 2011 Recital Tape 2011-9-18 Description An account of the resource Held on September 18, 2011. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-09-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/19d9d5a537d432ba45fcebd382a49a42.pdf ad9bcbee794693a11d99b48b66afbf05 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U N I V E R S I E Y STATE U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K D E P A R T M E N T THURSDAY MIDDAY CONCERT o ﬁg = Lv — — pF d yy N a py ~ ‘ THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2011 1:20 P.M. CASADESUS RECITAL HALL �PROGRAM Piano Concerto in F minor ............................... Fryderyk Chopin 1 ! movement Andante (from Sonata para clarinet)............. Carlos Guastivino (19122000) (18101849) Sungkyun Ryu, piano Ewa Mackiewicz, second piano Night Club 1960 (from History of the Tango) ...... Astor Piazolla (19211992) Vals Venezolano....................ccececeeueu........... D’Rivera (b.1948) Heavenly Road .............Traditional Tibetan I stand on the high mountain at dawn, watching the railroad built in my hometown. A hugedragon ﬂies through the mountain peaks, bringing luck and prosperity to our snowy plateau. Thatis a wonderful road to the sky— the mountains are no longer high and the roads are no longer far. The w ine is sweet, the tea is fragrant; happy songs ﬂy everywhere. Beautiful M o o Timothy Perry, clarinet Margaret Reitz, piano Lento R o b e (from F ive Pieces in a Popular Mood) r t Schumann (18101856) d .............Meng Qingyun Blue water, green mountains, sun rays saturate our sweet laughing. Wind sends the doves to the starry sky; the moon shines upon our happy dancing. Let our dreams grow auspicious wings; Let beautiful moods follow us everywhere Song without Words, op. 109 .. ......Felix Mendelssohn (18091847) Stephen Stalker, cello Margaret Reitz, piano Hong Zhang, mezzo soprano Margaret Reitz, piano Carnival of Venice .........cc..ccococeeeeeeeeeeennn........ Herbert L. Clarke (18671945) Concerto for Trombone.......................... II. Quasi una Leggenda lII. Finale William Marsiglia, trombone Margaret Reitz, piano Launy Grondahl Robert Smith, euphonium Margaret Reitz, piano �Bin gha mton U niver sit y M usic D epa rtm ent ’s U P C O M I N G E V E N T S ﬁ m a w q u ﬁ w b ﬁ w f b m MidDa y Concerts are held on Thursdays, 1:20 PM in Casadesus Recital Hall unless otherw ise n oted and are FREE Thursday, October 13 — MidDay Concert – 1:20 PM – Casadesus Recital Hall — Free Sunday, O ctober 16 — Mob ius Ensemble a nd Friends : Chamber Music Masterpieces — 3 PM — Watters Theater — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Thursday, October 20 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — Free Frida y, October 2 1 — TriC ities Opera presents “Madame Butte rﬂy” — 8 PM — The Forum Theatre! — Call (607) 7720400 for tickets Saturday, October 22 — Family Wee kend Concert (Harpu r Chorale, W omen ’s Chorus and the Univ ersity Symphony Orchestra ) — 3 PM — Osterhout Concert Theater — Free Sunday, O ctober 2 3 — T riC ities Opera pre sents “Madame Butte rﬂy” — 3 PM — The Forum Theatre — call (607) 7720400 for tickets Sunday, O ctober 23 — Alum ni Orga n Re cital : John Novak (MM ’06 ) — 4 PM – First Presbyterian Church, Binghamton — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Sunday, O ctober 23 — Binghamton Un ivers ity Symphony Orchestra : Con certo and Aria Com petit ion C oncert — 7:30 PM — Osterhout Concert Theater — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Thursday, October 27 — MidDay Concert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — free Frida y, October 2 8 — Pian ist Marga ret Reitz presents “Forty Fingers” w ith pian ists I d a TiliT rebicka, Amy Heyma n and Tina Toglia — 8 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — $6 general public ; $3 faculty/staﬀ/seniors ; free for students Thursday, Nov ember 3 — Mid Day C once rt — 1:20 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — free For ticket information, please call the Anderson Cen ter Box O ﬀice at 777ARTS. For our full concert listing, visit music. binghamton. edu or become a fan on Facebook. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:05:13 Streaming Audio Streaming URL https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145346 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mid-day concert, October 6, 2011 Recital Tape 2011-10-6 Description An account of the resource Works by Chopin, Meng Qingyun, GroÌˆndhal, Guastavino, Piazzolla, D’Rivera, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Clarke. Held at 1:20 p.m., October 6, 2011, Casadesus Recital Hall. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ryu, Sungkyun Mackiewicz-Wolfe, Ewa Zhang, Hong Reitz, Margaret A. Marsiglia, William Perry, Timothy B. Stalker, Stephen Smith, Robert Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b38d09c19d9188e3a8a3faeb164fb41c.pdf 59127d0eee4b2e0682c934638dae9487 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U N I V E R S I T Y S T A T E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K D E P A R T M E N T THURSDAY MI D DA Y CONCERT Rid (Ay — ‘>, TH UR S. OC TOBER 13, 2 011 1:20 P.M. CASADESUS RECIT AL HALL �PROGRAM Deh Vieni Q a TNOSIA ......cotu,oeenrescencansersanneenees A. Mozart from “Don Giovanni” (17561791) I Got Me Flowers...............................Ralph Vaughan Williams (1 8721 958) Charles Hyland, Baritone William Lawson, Piano LauriesSong.. Aaron Copland f r o m“The Tender L and (1 9001 990) Sabrina Scull, Soprano ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano Ev ’ry Valley shall be Exalted .........,...George Friedrich Handel Behold and See (1 6851 759) But Thou dids’t not Leave from “Messiah” (1 8791 925) Christina Santa Maria, Soprano William Lawson, Piano Glitter and Be Gay from “Candide” Leonard Bernstein (19181990) Christina Kompar, Soprano Margaret Reitz, Piano Nemico della patria from “Andrea Chenier” Umberto Giordano (18671948) HeePyoung Oh, Baritone ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano os iia ......................Vincenzo Bellini f r o m I Capuleti e eiM ontecchi” (18011835) Meghan Cakalli, Soprano Margaret Reitz, Piano Silent Noon........................................Ralph Vaughan Williams (1 8721 958) Kimberly Torres, Mezzo Soprano ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano Stefano Donaudy Ah, mai non cessate Oh quante volte.. Richard G. Leonberger, Tenor ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano Linden Lea Amorosi miei Giorni Che gelida manina from “ L a B o he me ” Eun Hwan Bae, Tenor ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano Giacomo Puccini (1 8581 924 ) �Binghamton University Music Department ’s U P C O M I N G E V E N T S ﬁ w w w a b ﬁ M M é ﬂ MidDay Concerts are held on Thursdays, 1:20 PM in Casadesus Recital Hall unless otherwise noted and are FREE Sunday, October 1 6 — Mobius Ensemble and Friends: Chamber Music Masterpieces — 3 PM — Watters Theater — $1 0 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Thursday, October 2 0 — MidDay Concert — 1 :20 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — Free Friday, October 2 1 — TriCities Opera presents “Madame Butterﬂy” — 8 PM — The Forum Theatre! — Call (607) 7720400 for tickets Saturday, October 2 2 — Family Weekend Concert (Harpur Chorale, Women’s C horus and the University Symphony Orchestra) — 3 PM — Osterhout Concert Theater — Free Sunday, October 23 — TriCities Opera presents “Madame Butterﬂy” – 3 PM – The Forum Theatre — call (607) 7720400 for tickets Sunday, October 23 — Alumni Organ Recital : John Novak (MM 0 6 ) — 4 PM – First Presbyterian Church, Binghamton — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Sunday, October 2 3 — Binghamton Univ ersity Symphony Orchestra : Concerto and Aria Competition Concert — 7:30 PM — Osterhout Concert Theater — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; $3 students Thursday, October 2 7 — MidDay Concert — 1 :20 PM – Casadesus Recital Hall — free Friday, October 28 – Pianist Margaret Re itz presents “Forty Fingers ” with pianists Ida TiliTrebicka, Amy H eyman and Tina Toglia — 8 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — $6 general public; $3 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; free for students Thursday, November 3 — MidDay Conc ert — 1 :20 PM – Casadesus Recital Hall — free For ticket information, please call the Anderson Center Box Oﬀice at 777ARTS To see all events, please visit music. b inghamton. e du Become a fan on Facebook by visiting Binghamton University Music D epartment � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 51:49:00 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145349">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145349</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mid-day concert, October 13, 2011 Recital Tape 2011-10-13 Description An account of the resource Works by Mozart, Vaughan Williams, Copland, Handel, Donaudy, Bernstein, Giordano, Bellini, Puccini. Held at 1:20 p.m., October 13, 2011, Casadesus Recital Hall. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hyland, Charles Lawson, William James Scull, Sabrina Mallinson, Chai-Kyou Leonberger, Richard G. Torres, Kimberly Santa Maria, Christina Kompar, Christina Reitz, Margaret A. Oh, Hee-Pyoung Cakalli, Meghan Bae, Eun Hwan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2988bc958748ed75d53556ec15bcc821.pdf b5949aa643ecbe4e335308e85ea77e23 PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U N I V E R S I T Y STATE U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K E N T D E P A R T M MOBIUS TC NSEMBLE AND [FRIENDS Janey Choi, Violin Roberta Crawford, Viola Stephen Stalker, Cello Michael Salmirs, Piano With Guest Artists Timothy Perry, Clarinet Peter Rovit, Violin Sunday, October 16, 2011 3 p.m. Watters Theater �PROGRAM Sonata for Violin and Piano A Johannes Brahms No. 2 i n A , Op. 100 (1833–1897) Allegro amabile Andante tranquillo Vivace Allegretto grazioso (quasi Andante) Ms. Choi, Mr. Salmirs Piano Quartet No. 7 G a b r 1 e l F a u r e ’ (18451924) In C minor, Op . 15 Allegro molto moderato Scherzo: Allegro vivo Adagio Allegro molto Ms. Choi, Ms. Crawford Mr. Stalker, Mr. Salmirs & IN T ERMIS S ION c z Clarinet Quintet in A, K V 581 .......Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Allegro Larghetto Menuetto — Trio l — Trio ll Allegretto con Variazioni Ms. Choi, Ms. Crawford Mr. Stalker, Mr. Rovit, Mr. Perry (17561791) B O U T Canadian violinist, Janey Choi gave her Carnegie Hall recital debut in 1997 as a winner of the Artists International Auditions and continues an active career performing as a soloist and with such groups as the Ardelia Trio, New York City Ballet, and the Teaching Artists Ensemble of the New York Philharmonic. The recipient of numerous awards, including National First Prize in the Canadian Music Competition, and a Performing Arts Grant from the Ontario Arts Council, she has participated in such festivals as Mostly Mozart, Norfolk, Taos, the Spoleto Festivals in the U.S. and Italy, Festival Musical de Santo Domingo, the Santa Fe Opera and the Sarasota Opera. An avid interarts and crossgenre collaborator, she is the Music Director of Thomas/Ortiz Dance, and has performed numerous times with the Parsons Dance Co. She initiated a collaboration between the Paul Taylor Dance Company and the Binghamton University Orchestra. Her other interests have taken her to the visual arts world, developing and presenting an annual “Music + Art” show commissioning artwork based on chamber works. She has recorded and appeared with such mainstream performers as Bono (U2) and Quincy Jones, Adele, Beyoncé, Aretha Franklin, Enya , Elton John, Ja yZ, Sarah McLachlan, Lenny Kravitz, and Kanye West, on the Grammys, MTV, Saturday Night Live, The Today Show, at Live 8, Radio City Music Hall and Royal Albert Hall in London, England. Dr. Choi was the youngest, and only PreCollege student ever accepted by her late mentor, Joseph Fuchs at The Juilliard School, where she graduated from the accelerated BM/MM program with the Joseph Fuchs Graduation Prize. Her other major teachers include Joel Smirnoﬀ, Victor Danchenko, Harvey Shapiro, and Arnold Steinhardt. She attained her Doctor of Musical Arts degree a t Rutgers University with full scholarship and the Gradua te Fellowship Award. She has been on the faculty of Binghamton University since 2006 and is a Tea ching Artist for the New York Philharmonic and Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center. She has presented educational workshops for the College Music Society National Conference, Tokyo College of Music and Lincoln Center Institute. In her free time, she enjoys marathon and triathlon training, playing soccer and ice hockey. Roberta Cra wford, violist, performs extensively as a recitalist and chamber musician. As coartistic director and a founding member of the Finger Lakes Chamber Ensemble, Ms. Crawford has participated in over two hundred solo, chamber, and lecturerecitals presented by the ensemble since its formation in 1990. Ms. Crawford is violist with the �Mobius Ensemble, resident piano quartet at Binghamton University which performs frequently on campus and throughout the region. She has performed with the Catskill Chamber Players, appeared often on the Cayuga Chamber Orchestra’s Sunday Chamber Music Series and was a guest performer with the Ariadne String Quartet. Ms. Crawford has played with the Portland and Syracuse symphonies and has served as principal violist for the Cayuga Chamber Orchestra. Recent activities include performance in the world premiere of Fault Lines for piano quartet, written by awardwinning composer, James Matheson and presented at Cornell University’s Mayfest 2010. An advocate of new music, Ms. Crawford has premiered numerous works featuring viola and has been the dedicatee of several works written speciﬁcally for her. She has participated in music festivals throughout the United States and in the Caribbean and has appeared in live performance broadcasts for public radio and television. A dedicated teacher, Ms. Crawford has served as clinician, coach, and adjudicator for numerous music organizations and as director of ViolaFest at Binghamton. Ms. Crawford also served for ﬁve years as a Faculty/Artist for NSOA ASTA String Institute at Ithaca College. She has been a guest faculty member at Phillips Academy, the Quartet Program, Ithaca College, and the Eastman School of Music and is currently coordinator of strings at Binghamton University. Stephen Stalker, cello, has made concerto appearances with numerous orchestras in upstate New York, including: Schenectady Symphony Orchestra, Cayuga Chamber Orchestra, Catskill Symphony Orchestra and the Binghamton Community Orchestra, performing concertos by Boccherini, Haydn, Beethoven, Lalo, St. Saens, Brahms, Dvorak, Hindemith and Shostakovich. He has performed in chamber groups throughout the United States and Europe. As a member of the Madison Quartet, he performed in the US, France, Germany and Switzerland, recorded for the Orion and Musical Heritage Society labels, was a ﬁnalist in the Evian International String Quartet Competition and the Naumberg Chamber Music Competition, and was an ArtistinResidence at Colgate University. He has played extensively with the Catskill Chamber Players, performing and premiering many compositions by prominent American composers, including the world premiere of the late string quartets of Henry Bryant, “Four Score,” a t the Weill Recital Hall in New York City. He has performed the complete Beethoven Trio cycle with colleagues at Binghamton University. He performed with Solisti New York on their Alaskan cruise of the Inner Passage from Vancouver to Juneau and also toured Greece with the Schenectady Philharmonic. He graduated from the Manhattan School of Music and teaches cello and double bass at Binghamton University. Pianist Michael Salmirs is wellknown as a recitalist and chamber musician. As a founding member and coartistic director of the Finger Lakes Chamber Ensemble, he maintains a full season of chamber concerts and lecture recitals and recently presented a series on the last three piano sonatas of Beethoven. He has appeared as soloist with the Corning Philharmonic, Binghamton University Orchestra, Cayuga Chamber Orchestra, and is frequently a featured pianist on their Sunday Chamber Series. In addition to performing most of the standard chamber music repertoire for strings and piano, he has premiered numerous solo and chamber works, and recently gave the world premieres of Piano Quintets by David Liptak and Marek Harris. He has also participated in such contemporary music series as Binghamton University’s Music Nova, Cornell University’s Ensemble X, Chiron, and has toured and recorded for the Syracuse Society for New Music. This past season he premiered Piano Quartet by Wendy Wanki Lee with the Binghamton University resident piano quartet, Mobius Ensemble, as well as Diego Vega’s Piano Quartet with the Finger Lakes Chamber Ensemble. Mr. Salmirs studied at the New England Conservatory and Eastman School of Music; his teachers have included pianists Leonard Shure and Rebecca Penneys and composer Karel Husa. Salmirs has taught at the Syracuse University School of Music and Hobart and William Smith Colleges. He is currently a faculty member at Binghamton University where he teaches piano and coaches chamber music. As a composer, Silenced Voice, for Soprano, Baritone, Clarinet, and Piano Quartet, was premiered in 2010 at Binghamton University and is presently working on a string ensemble piece for the New Violin Family Orchestra to premiered in summer, 2012. Dr. Timothy Perry, Professor and Chair of Binghamton University’s Department of Music is now in his twentysixth season as director of the orchestral program at Binghamton University, serving as Director of the University Symphony and University String orchestras. Dr. Perry also directed the BU Wind Ensemble from 1986–2005 and served as the Music Director of the Binghamton Community Orchestra from 1994– 2004. He has guest conducted a wide range of orchestral, opera and musical theater repertoire with ensembles both regionally and internationally, most recently closing the season of the Catskill Symphony in May of 2012. As clarinetist he has appeared throughout the world as soloist, chamber musician and tea cher, including three appearances at the world conference of the International Clarinet Association and a tour as a United States Musical Ambassador for Latin America and the Caribbean. Recent activities have included concerto appearances with the Catskill Symphony Orchestra in 2009 and with the �PROGRAM NOTES BU Symphony in 2011. He presented a solo recital at Binghamton‘s Phelps Mansion for the “Second Sunday” series on September 25th and will perform the Premiere Rhapsodie of Claude Debussy for a Friedheim Memorial Lecture Recital at Binghamton University on November 8th. Dr. Perry performs on a Buﬀet basset clarinet built for him in 2005 by Stephen Fox of Toronto, and a “bel canto” mouthpiece by James Pyne. Peter Rovit (BM with High Distinction, Indiana University; MM, Hartt School; Professional Studies, Juilliard; DMA, SUNY at Stony Brook) was among the last students of Josef Gingold at Indiana University where he also studied Baroque violin with Stanley Ritchie. His other teachers have included Mitchell Stern, Philip Setzer, ChoLiang Lin, Paul Kantor and Donald Weilerstein. Mr. Rovit has been the recipient of numerous awards and scholarships including the Kuttner Scholarship at Indiana University, the C.V. Starr Scholarship at the Juilliard School, and the Aspen Music Festival’s String Fellowship. As a chamber musician, recitalist, and soloist he has performed throughout the United States and at the Spring in Saint Petersburg Festival in Russia. Performances have included concert appearances on the Aspen Music Festival’s Young Artist Concert series, with the International Sejong Soloists, and on Baroque violin with the Rebel Ensemble and the Atlanta Baroque Orchestra. He has been a recipient of the prestigious Montgomery Symphony Fellowship in Alabama which involved performing as concertmaster and soloist with the symphony and giving numerous concert appearances throughout the area. He has performed as a chamber musician and recitalist with such musicians as Andrew Jennings, Felicia Moye, Volkan Orhon, Christina Jennings, Ricardo Morales, Larry Combs, and the Emerson Quartet. A concerto competition winner at both the Hartt School and at SUNY Stony Brook, Mr. Rovit has also performed as a soloist with the Montgomery Symphony, the Fort Smith Symphony, the Oklahoma City Philharmonic, and the Tuscaloosa Symphony. Mr. Rovit has been on the string faculty of the University of Oklahoma and the University of Alabama, a member of the Quartet Oklahoma, Associate Concertmaster of the Oklahoma City Philharmonic, and Concertmaster of the Tuscaloosa Symphony. He is currently the Violin Professor at Syracuse University. 1 Johannes Brahms Sonata No. 2 in A Major, Op. 100 In the summer of 1886, Brahms was once more vacationing near Lake Thun in Switzerland. The peace and beauty of the countryside often provided him with ideal working conditions and this summer’s eﬀorts were especially productive. He composed many new lieder as well as the cello sonata in F Major, Op. 99, the piano trio in C major, Op. 101 and the second violin sonata in A Major, Op. 100. Of the three sonatas Brahms wrote for violin, the A Major Sonata is considered by many to be his most lyrical. Its overall character has been aptly described by Eduard Hanslick : “when we listen to the A Major Violin Sonata, we feel more or less as if, following a thunderstorm that has gloriously discharged itself, we are drawn into the delicious stillness of an aromatic summer evening.” The ﬁrst movement, Allegro amabile, opens with a partial statement in the piano to which the violin responds. The voices soon join together in a complete statement of the the ﬁrst theme, which critics and commentators have noted bears a resemblance to Walther’s Prize Song from Wagner’s Opera. Die Meistersinger. Speculation aside, Brahms himself has indicated that the second theme of this beautifully crafted movement owes its inspiration to his own song, Wie Melodien zieht es mir (Op. 105, No. 1), which he also composed during this idyllic summer. In the second movement, Brahms adroitly combines elements of a slow movement, which traditionally would be located in this placement, with the dancelike rhythms of a scherzo. The Finale, marked Allegretto grazioso, is a remarkably easygoing rondo which brings the work to a graceful and satisfying close. Violinist Joseph Hellmesberger, Brahms’s longtime friend and colleague, collaborated with the composer for the premiere performance of this work which took place in Vienna during the autumn of 1886. — Roberta Crawford Gabriel Fauré Piano Quartet No. 1 in C minor, Op. 15 The listening public is well acquainted with Fauré as a composer of songs and of his incomparable Requiem, while his excellent body of chamber music remains largely underappreciated: sonatas for cello and piano, violin and piano, two piano quartets, two piano quintets, a piano trio, a string quartet and a host of smaller pieces. Faure lived and �worked in a time of unprecedented creative exploration. In the midst of varying and conﬂicting aesthetics, Fauré managed to develop his own unique compositional language, which incorporated elements from both nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and retained a distinctly French character. His style continued to develop and unfold up until his death in 1924. The Piano Quartet in C minor is a relatively early work. Composed between 1876 and 1879, the inﬂuences of earlier 19th century composers, such as Brahms and Franck are apparent. The ﬁrst movement is in sonataallegro form with a rhythmic, declamatory ﬁrst theme followed by a gently undulating second theme in the relative major. Fauré expertly weaves and transforms the character of these themes throughout the course of the development gradually building to a dramatic climax and restatement of the opening material. In the closing bars of the movement, Fauré revisits the ﬁrst theme, now wistful and reminiscent, and the entire movement simply evaporates. Fauré follows the ﬁrst movement with a playful Scherzo. The strings accompany the piano melody with a pizzicato ostina to ﬁgure. The middle section features a melody with muted strings, which personiﬁes suavity and the movement ends with a return of the original material. The third movement is the heart of the quartet, an elegy which opens with an eloquent cello statement. Of the third movement, Robert Orledge writes: “the zenith of Fauré’s ﬁrst period. Contemplative and beautiful, alternately serene and powerful, it demands the maximum of concentration from performer and audience alike.” The ﬁnale is a perpetual motion of brilliant piano passagework, which Fauré then contrasts with a singing theme — the two themes gra dually combine, building to a powerful climax, followed by a return of the ﬁrst theme and an ecstatic coda. “At ﬁrst they found my music noisy and discordant” — thus Fauré remarks on the ﬁrst performances of this piano quartet. It is diﬀicult for us to fathom today that Fauré had great diﬀiculty ﬁnding a publisher for the piece and that a work that has brought so much pleasure to musicians and the public over so many years was a ﬁnancial ﬁasco for the composer. Fauré went on to be revered as one of the great composers of France. In addition to his compositions, he left his legacy as the head of the Paris Conservatoire, where he modernized the curriculum, revamped administrative procedures and was the dedicated teacher of many composers of renown including Maurice Ravel, George Enescu, and Nadia Boulanger. — Roberta Crawford Mozart Clarinet Quintet (“StadlerQuintet") in A Major, K. 581 While Mozart created a considerable body of music for wind instrument ensembles in the form of a variety of serenades, cassations, and divertimenti, his compositions for a solo wind with strings include far fewer compositions and only one undisputed masterwork — his last, the Clarinet Quintet in A Major, K. 581. Written during the summer of 1789 and premiered in December of that year (just prior to the premiere of Cosi fan Tutte), the Clarinet Quintet was composed speciﬁcally for showcasing Mozart’s close friend, the clarinettist (and enabler of bad behavior) Anton Stadler. Stadler’s relationship with Mozart was based upon their common predeliction for drinking, carousing and borrowing money that was never repaid, and upon their high regard for one another’s musicality. Indeed, Stadler’s artistry on the early clarinet was so respected by Mozart that he created three works with Stadler’s idiomatic skillset in mind: the Quintet, and two of Mozart’s last works, the obbligato solo part for the aria “Parto, parto” from La Clemenza di Tito, K. 621, and the great Clarinet Concerto in A, K. 622. All three works were written for Stadler’s “basset clarinet,” a variation on the standard Aclarinet which extended the size and lower range of the clarinet by four additional semitones. (We will hear the work this evening on a modern basset clarinet made by Stephen Fox of Toronto). The Quintet is cast in four movements, each of which seems to illuminate a diﬀerent aspect of Stadler’s playing, set in the context of some of Mozart’s most nuanced writing for string quartet. The opening Allegro is a large sonataform in which the lyric melodicism of the string parts is contrasted with a huge arching arpeggio theme from the clarinet. Both aspects are exploited throughout the movement, the arpeggios cascading through the ensemble in midmovement while the lyric passages alternate in episodes of major and minor key areas on the periphery. The Larghetto is justly regarded as one of the most sublime slow movements in all of Music, an exquisite and intimate conversation between the clarinet and ﬁrst violin with all the expression and pathos of a great Mozart opera aria. Like those pieces, time is suspended while we and the world stop, breathless, before the master ’s divine genius. If the second movement is heavenly, the third movement Minuet celebrates humanity. Here is a view of the private Stadler/Mozart friendship of the street, the social dance, and the tavern. At turns �~~ 1 boisterous and reﬁned, the minuet seems almost an elevated satire on the roots of this most courtly dance. Rare among his minuets, Mozart provides not one but two trios: the ﬁrst a suave and darkly passionate serenade for the strings alone, and the second a rustic land/er led by the clarinet. The quintet’s ﬁnale showcases each player in turn through a set of variations on a theme reminiscent in its utter simplicity of a child’s tune. The variations provide in their wildly varied characterizations a lmost a miniopera: in the ﬁrst variation, the clarinet introduces a countermelody with impossibly wide leaps; the ﬁrst violin provides another in the second, accompanied by rushing “brookmusic” triplets in second violin and viola; the viola moves to (mock?) tragedy in the third over a deep bass line in cello and clarinet; a hyperelegant adagio with interrupted motives showcases the violin/clarinet (Mozart/Stadler) duet once again. There follows a brief moment of apotheosis (which brings to mind Figaro’s in the opera ﬁnale) of almost painful tenderness at parting. But Mozart will face the end with joy and not sorrow, and the last variation recapitulates the theme in high spirits. And so we are enjoined by Mozart to live: in friendship, and in joy. —Timothy Perry ‘ a tH 5‘— > 4 db k _. 3 ] II. 4 4 °£ oﬀs r 2 S y u New B eginnings Beginnings Back 10 our Roots Sunday, M a r c h 11,2012, 3 : 0 0 p . m Sunda y, Octo ber 1 6, 2 01 1, 4:00 p.m St. Patrick’s Catholic Church 9 Leroy Street, Binghamton, NY Lessons and Carols tor Christmas Saturday, November 2 6 . 2011, 7 : 3 0 p.m. & Sunday, November 27 , 2011, 4:00 p.m o l y T r in i ty C hurch o ft h e H 346 Prospect Street, Binghamton, N Y Trinity Memorial Church 44 M ain Street, Binghamton, N Y Crossroads Sunday. lune 7» . 2 01 1 44001 1 m Tabernacle United Methodist Church 83 Main Street, Binghamton, N Y For Tickers f l 4 w n s “ N ﬁ f ’ g t u a l 7 0 ’ 4 I ‘ N I or call 60" “ 304 “ 6” ( C D 2011201213411. Season The Madrigal CholrofBingha mton = 20112012 Season TRICI TIES PERA MADAME BUTTE RFLY u.t’1\1111.uu1ﬂ<.\11x11< October 21 A “ ‘ ' 102 February 10 & 12, 2012 eL a d h e 1 . . . . . . . h a g s p e a t T H E M A G I C FLUTE vereries 7 ¢ April 2 _ Conran w is T R B at the FORUM THEATRE is Binghamios m u tricitesopera.com Tix Info: 6077720400 « ww n — n n — m a — m a n u m n m – n D o v e r n c r g “ M m M – “ n ‘ w c m — m — w m O anama—nonhuma— m ﬁ ‘ M – M e m M ‘ w ‘ “ w a n n a – g m �Binghamt on Universit y Music Departme nt ’s U P C O M I N G E V E N T S MidDay concerts are held on 7hursdays, 1:20 PM in Casadesus Recital Hall unless otherwise noted and are FREE Thursd ay, October 20 — MidDa y Concert – 1:20 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — Free Friday , October 2 1 — TriCities Opera pre sents “ Madame Butter– ﬂ y ” – 8 PM – The Forum Theatre! – Call (607) 7720400 for tickets Saturd ay, October 22 — Family Weekend Con cert (Harpur Chorale, Women’s Chorus an d the U nivers ity Symphony Orchestra) – 3 PM – Osterhout Concert Theater – Free Sunda y, Octo ber 2 3 — TriCit ies Opera presen ts “Mad ame B utter ﬂ y ” — 3 PM – The Forum Theatre – call (607) 7720400 for tickets Sunda y, October 23 — Alum ni Orga n Reci tal : John Novak (MM ‘06 ) — 4 PM – First Presbyterian Church, Binghamton — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/seniors ; $3 students Sunda y, October 2 3 — Binghamto n Univer sity Symphon y Orches tra : Concerto and Aria Competit ion Concert – 7:30 PM – Osterhout Concert Theater — $10 general public; $6 faculty/staﬀ/ seniors; $3 students Thursd ay, October 27 – MidDa y Concert – 1:20 PM – Casadesus Recital Hall — free Friday , October 28 – Pianis t Margaret Reitz presents “Forty Fingers ” w i t h p ianists I d a T iliTreb icka, Amy Heyma n and Tina Toglia — 8 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall — $6 general public; $3 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; free for students Sunda y, October 3 0 — Wind Symphony : Holst! — 3 PM — Anderson Center Chamber Hall — $6 general public; $3 faculty/staﬀ/seniors; free for students Thursd ay, Novem ber 3 — MidDay Con cert — 1:20 PM — Casadesus Recital Hall – free For ticket information, please call the Anderson Cente r Box O ﬂ’ice at 777ARTS. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 3 audio discs Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:28 36:08 24:24 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145364">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145364</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Choi, Janey Crawford, Roberta Stalker, Stephen Salmirs, Michael Perry, Timothy Rovit, Peter Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1910156bacf5969aefb48a80cb7c3a55.pdf 6eca471b3aa3789247537d93e1cfdfbd PDF Text Text BINGHAMTON U N I V E R S l T Y S TAT E U N I V E R S I T Y O F N E W Y O R K [ ( [4 B E P A R T M E N T T H U R S D AY M I D D AY CONCERT o 0“5;1 df Q e r : 4 5 A ( 7 'b 1 . / pm. . u \ ®( % i , 1 Th urs d ay, O ctob er » 2011 1:20 p.m . C asa d es us R ecita l H all �SUNG TEXTS PROGRAM Beads of Glass ( Z O ) . I fMusic b e the F o o d o fLove Adam Goldenberg, Marimba If Music be the Food of Love... O Sleep, Why Dost Thou Leaw Me? from Semele Gordon Stout (b. 1952) .Henry Purcell (1659–1695) . George Frideric Handel (1685–1759) Katie Sucha, Soprano ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano Papagena! Papagena!. . from Die Zauberﬂote Serenade from Songs and Dances of Death Charles Hyland, Baritone William J. Lawson, Piano Kerianna Krebushevski, Soprano William J. Lawson, Piano S u l d ’ u n s o ﬀ i from Falstaﬀ o A Gluseppe Verdi (1813–1901) E un Hwn Bae, Tenor ChaiKyou Mallinson, Piano , Meghan Cakalli, Soprano Margaret Reitz, Piano O sleep, why dost thou leave me, Why thy visionary joys remove? 0 sleep, again deceive me, To my arms restore my wand’ring love! Papagena! Papagena! (Papageno’s Suicide) P apagena, Papagena, Papagenal Little wife, little dove, my beautiful one, I n vainl Ah, she is lost! Giunse al ﬁn i! momento Deh viens, non tardar...........................cereeneen. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart from Le nogge di Figaro >» Pleasures invade both eye and ear, So ﬁerce the transports are, they wound, And all my senses feasted are, Tho’ yet the treat is only sound, Sure I must perish by your charms, Unless you save me in your arms. O sleep, why d ost thou leave me? Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (17561791) .Modest Mussorgsky (18391881) Lunge da lei De’ miei bollents spiriti from La traviata If music be the food of love, Sing on till I am ﬁll’d with joy; For then my list’ning soul you move To pleasures that can never cloy. Your eyes, your mien, your tongue declare That you are music ev’rywhere. Gluseppe Verdi I was born for misfortune, I chattered and chattered And that was bad, And therefore, it serves me right Therefore, it serves me right. Since I tasted this wine, Since I saw that beautiful little woman, It bums in the little chamber ofmy heart, So, it tweaks here, it tweaks there. Papagena, little wife of my heart! Papagena, dear little dove! It is all for nothing! It is in vain! I am tired ofmy life, Dying will make an end to love, When it burns so in my heart. That tree there, I want to adorn, By tying myself by the neck to it, Because life displmses me. Good night, you false woddl Because you have handled me wickedly, Bound me to no beautiful child, So, it’s over, so I die. Beautiful girls, think of mel If any ofthem for poor me Ere I hang, have some compassion, I could actually let it all drop. Just call yes or no, No one hears me, all is still, All, all is still. So, is it your will? P apageno, ge t gonig, End the course of your life! Now, I will wait, may it bel Until one counts one, two, three! One, two, three, well on with it, then It will happen. Because nothing holds me back, Good night, you false world ! Serenade Languorous, magical dark blue night. Trembling spring twilight. With bowed head, a sickly young woman listens to the still murmurs of the night. Sleep has not closed her eyes. Life pleads with joy not to fade, But in the silence of midnight, D eath sings a serenade: “In the darkness of cruel captivity, your youth fades. I, an errant knight, unknown to you, will free you by my magic power. Stand up, look at yourself. You are beautiful. Your face shines, your cheeks rosy. Dark tresses like clouds envelope your body. Your light blue eyes brighter than the moon, Shine like the skies, Your breath hot as a midday ﬁre. You charm me ... Over you I have cast a spell with my serenade. Your whisper was calling me. Your knight is here to claim his supreme reward. Your hour of bliss has come. Your body so soft, and your enchanting charm, Oh, I will strangle you in my strong embrace. Lover, hear my whisper ... Be silent ... You are mine!” �With her beside me, I feel myself reborn, revived by the breath of love, forgetting the past in present delights. Giunse al ﬁ n 17 momento . . . Deh viens The moment ﬁnally arrives When I’ll experience joy without haste In the arms of my beloved Fearful anxieties, get out of my heart! Do not come to disturb my delight. Oh, how it seems that to amorous ﬁres The comfort of the place, Earth and heaven respond, As the night responds to my ruses. My passionate spirit and the ﬁre of youth she tempers with the gentle smile of love. Since the day when she told me, “I want to live, faithful to you alone!” I have forgotten the world: I live, I live like, I live like one in heaven. Oh, come, don’t be late, my beautiful joy Come where love calls you to enjoyment Untl night’s torches no longer shine in the sky Aslongastheairisstilldark And the world quiet. Here the river murmurs and the light plays Sul ﬁn d’un soﬀio etesio On the breath of an etesian breeze scurry, agile shadows That restores the heart with sweet ripples Here, little ﬂowers laugh and the grass is fresh Here, everything entices one to love’s pleasures Come, my dear, among these hidden plants. Come, come! I want to crown you with roses. Lunge da l ei . . . D e ’ m iei bollents s pirit There’s no pleasure in life when she’s away! It’s three months now since Violetta gave up for me her easy, luxurious life of loveaﬀairs and expensive parties. There she was used to the homage of all who were enslaved by her beauty but she seems happy here in this charming place, where she forgets among the branches a bluishgrey glow of the rising moon has appeared. Dance! And may the gentle steps measure a gentle sound, combining the magical dances with the song. Let us wander beneath the moon, choosing ﬂower by ﬂower, each crown of petals, in its heart, brings its good fortune. With the lilies and the violets, let us write secret names; from our enchanted hands may words blossom words illuminated by pure silverand gold Magic incantations and charms. The Fates have, for letters, ﬂowers. everything for me. W Binghamton University M usic Departm e n r’s UPCOMING E V E N TS M M t b Friday, October 21, 8pm & Sunday, O ctober 23, 3pm – TriCities Opera pr esents Madama B u t t e r ﬂ y 8pm The Forum Theatre – Call (607) 7720400 for tickets Saturday, October 22, 3pm – F amil y Wee kend Concert (Harp ur Chorale, Women’s Chorus an d th e U niversity Sym p hony Orchestra) – Osterhout Concert Theater Free Sunday, October 23, 4 p m Alum ni Organ Recital: John Novak, MM * 0 6 F irst Presbyterian Church, Binghamton Sunday, October 23 – U niversity Sym p hon y Orchestra : Concerto & Aria Com petition Winners’ Concert – 7:30pm – Osterhout Concert Theater For ticket information, please call the Anderson Center B o x O ﬀice at 777ARTS � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 37:04:00 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145369">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE145369</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. [default: 'FacingContinuous'] Options: 'Single' - Only the entire current page will be visible and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Continuous' - All pages are visible in one scrollable column and Zoom will be set to page width. 'Facing' - Up to two full pages will be visible and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns and Zoom will be set to page height. 'FacingCover' - All pages visible as whole pages, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) 'FacingCoverContinuous' - All pages visible in two scrollable columns, with an even numbered page rendered first. (i.e. The first page of the document is rendered by itself on the right side of the viewer to simulate a book cover.) Single Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mid-day concert, October 20, 2011 Recital Tape 2011-10-20 Description An account of the resource Works by Stout, Purcell, Handel, Mozart, Mussorgsky, Verdi. Held at 1:20 p.m., October 20, 2011, Casadesus Recital Hall. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Goldenberg, Adam Sucha, Kathryn Mallinson, Chai-Kyou Hyland, Charles Lawson, William James Krebushevski, Kerianna Bae, Eun Hwan Cakalli, Meghan Reitz, Margaret A. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound