136 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8160b2853b77ab8fe8c1a2e312ee622c.jpg f1aee1af07ba7a940b77e8b8fe60ce6f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05ae878377bee832e53426cdfb479636.mp3 9dabf112f00cd7ae4b8d245cdec1e259 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Holtzman Date of Interview 2011-06-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 79:14 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Ausio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Holtzman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Holtzman, Elizabeth ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.177 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 79:14 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/df753b4355ebba091101334dc2e87f3b.jpg 9664591256b5b84bc9dbdc710b93549a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a7ca9b9911672660423c33be25a7c556.mp3 c85b3890001ae58728c074c90e81f46c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rick Synchef Date of Interview 2010-12-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 153:58 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Black Panther; Angela Davis; Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Earth Day; Activism; Vietnam War; Free speech movement; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Black Panther; Angela Davis; Vietnam Veterans; Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Earth Day; Activism; Vietnam War; Free speech movement; Activism.</span> Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6535,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,1184274],"15":"Arial"}">Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s.</span> Subject LCSH Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Rick Synchef Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 15 December 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing one, two. Okay. The first question I have been asking at least the last 50 people that I have been interviewing is, Rick, can you describe your growing up years, your high school years, where you grew up, maybe some experiences you had at that school prior to going off to the University of Wisconsin to college, and also if you had any early role models before you went off to college. Either parents or people in the news or people that you read about in books. RS (00:00:42): I had a fairly normal childhood growing up in the suburbs of Chicago. I want to go off the record. I do not know how much of this you want. I may say more than is necessary, so you may- SM (00:00:55): Go right ahead. RS (00:00:56): Okay. President of my class in eighth grade, politically interested, writing letters to the editor in high school for our local newspaper. I have to go off for a second. If I make grammatical mistakes, will I be able to correct them at- SM (00:01:12): Oh yeah. You will be able to correct them because you will see the transcript. RS (00:01:17): Because I would rather just speak and if I say something, I do not want to have to worry about my grammar so much when I speak with you. SM (00:01:22): That is okay. RS (00:01:23): Okay. SM (00:01:24): Yep. RS (00:01:24): All right. Always interested in politics. Followed politics. Senior year in high school, actually just graduating after senior year in high school. It was 1968. Since I just graduated, I was not allowed by my parents to go down to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in August at night. I went with a couple of friends the following day to the Grant Park area. We walked into the Conrad Hilton Hotel, and this tear gas smell was just terrible. Started tearing up right away in the lobby of the hotel. But go back a bit. I was very normal, very athletic, a jock in high school, but was interested in going to a good university and furthering my education, and at that point, I was already fairly sure I was going to become an attorney but did not know. We went to visit a number of colleges and one of them was the University of Wisconsin in Madison. I had already been to some fairly conservative schools like Miami of Ohio, University of Illinois. Then when I got to Madison, we had walked out of the administration building after meeting with a counselor, or somebody regarding college admissions, and they were doing construction across the street and there was plywood everywhere and on one big sheet of plywood, written in spray paint, "LBJ sucks." I had a feeling that is where I wanted to go. Looked and sounded like fun. People on roller skates, dogs with bandanas. That was for me. SM (00:03:30): Yeah. Yeah, that was (19)68 and that summer... That was an unbelievable year. Now, I know I have some questions later on here and I am going to ask you about that year and your years in college, but going to... You went down there. What did you think of that whole experience, that Democratic convention with the police and against the young people, and they were all students, but there were a lot of young people there, and of course, there was chaos even inside the Democratic Convention itself? RS (00:04:04): A complete overreaction to what I viewed as non-violent political participation in the democratic process. Of course, being born in Chicago and having a family or relatives in Chicago since the 18(19)70s, I was fairly familiar with the Chicago police, but not firsthand. Never had a problem. Parenthetically, I grew up in a suburb 25 miles north of Chicago and only saw "the good parts of Chicago" when I came into the city. But I was shocked seeing people being beaten with clubs, tear gas, National Guard, Army... I do not know the exact terminology, but there was an Army personnel carrier with tripod-mounted machine guns and barbed wire around them. Chicago was transformed into an armed camp. It was quite an eye-opener at 18 years old. SM (00:05:17): And you were not allowed to be there at night, but you were there during the day. RS (00:05:22): Two friends and I went down there after the event in Grant Park that night, and on Michigan Avenue then, the prior evening. The smell of tear gas was just really awful. It was new to me. First time. Really awful. SM (00:05:47): I bet you when you first heard the rock group, Chicago, they had that first album and it was a prologue. The whole world is watching. The whole world is watching. Did you hear any of that? RS (00:06:02): I did. Actually, the name on their first album was Chicago Transferred Authority. For obvious reasons, they changed it. They shortened it to Chicago. I did. I knew I was interested in politics before then, but I became even more interested and I ended up majoring in political science. SM (00:06:25): Well, as a young person at 18... I know this. I got this question later, but that was the year before you graduated from high school when Martin Luther King was killed in April, and Bobby Kennedy was killed in Los Angeles in June, and this is before your high school graduation, and then you got the Chicago Convention in August. RS (00:06:47): Stunning. Absolutely stunning to see people who I looked up to and admired, assassinated. I did not really know what to make of it at that time, being 18 years old, but I knew something was terribly wrong. SM (00:07:04): When you went to your high school graduation, that must have been around the third week of June, or somewhere around there? RS (00:07:10): A bit earlier, but yes. SM (00:07:12): Yeah. Was what was the theme of your high school graduation? Was there talk of what was happening in America in (19)68? The main speaker of the student speakers losing those two great leaders, but the nation seemed torn apart. What was your high school graduation like in terms of what people were saying? RS (00:07:33): It appeared that what was going on in the larger world was irrelevant. It was a very standard high school graduation, held at a very nice facility called Virginia Park in Highland Park, Illinois, and it was as if those events had not happened. SM (00:07:54): Wow. What was it like? And I am getting to your college years at the University of Wisconsin. I got quite a few questions here. I had a friend that was in graduate school with me from the University of Wisconsin. He was a political science major and he was a PhD candidate, and his name was Alex Sapkowski. Does that name ever ring a bell to you? RS (00:08:14): It does not. SM (00:08:15): Now, he came from Wisconsin, and he was there at Ohio State in (19)71, but what was it like to be a college student at the University of Wisconsin from (19)68 to (19)72? Just your overall feeling when you look at that four years, what was it like because people reading this are going to be high school and college students that were not alive then. RS (00:08:39): Initially, I was a "straight person", meaning I went to see a Janice Joplin concert in 1969 wearing a coat and tie. I thought that is what you did when you went to a concert. Dressed nicely for class and took my studies very seriously. SM (00:09:03): Right. Yeah. During those four years, what kinds of protests did you see and what were the issues that they were protesting? RS (00:09:14): There were a number of issues. Everything from civil rights to the war, of course, and maybe I should say the Vietnam War for young people. The Vietnam War. The environmental movement was just starting. The first birthday was held in April 1970, and the University of Wisconsin was prominently involved in the Senator Gaylord Nelson was the, I believe, first person who proposed having an birthday. SM (00:09:46): Yeah. And I interviewed him for my book. RS (00:09:49): I saw that. SM (00:09:51): Yeah. RS (00:09:51): I saw that. So there was a lot of what you could call a consciousness-raising in so many different areas from migrant workers to civil rights to, of course, the war and the... To borrow one expression, the military industrial complex, but medicine was a very progressive, politically aware, and politically savvy place. SM (00:10:29): Obviously, were they... Were a lot of the students against ROTC on campus too? Blocking military recruiters. Was that... RS (00:10:38): In fact, freshman year in college, ROTC orientation was compulsory as a class- SM (00:10:46): Oh my gosh. RS (00:10:48): ... For incoming freshman. And that was changed; I believe a year or two after I became a student. Near the ROTC building... I do not know if you want to print this, it was regularly burned down during the spring. It was an annual riot. SM (00:11:08): Oh, you mean... Oh, they burned it down there too? RS (00:11:13): Yes. SM (00:11:14): Well, how many times was it burned down? RS (00:11:16): I believe at least once annually. SM (00:11:19): Oh my goodness. Kent State was only that one time. Wow. That was crazy. And of course, did they have to call in the National Guard at your campus? RS (00:11:32): National Guard was on campus regularly. Bayonets, tear gas... There was a Black student strike in the winter of 1969, and that was really the first large demonstration that I saw on campus. And subsequent to that, there were of course, many, many demonstrations primarily having to do with Vietnam War. SM (00:12:08): At that time, at the University of Wisconsin, what was the relationship between the students? Now, I am not sure, again, what percentage of your students were involved in anti-war activity or activism, but what was the relationship between a lot of the students and the administration and the faculty? RS (00:12:33): The relationship between the students and the administration was adversarial. They viewed students as a... This might be too strong. I do not want to... I was going to say necessary evil. I do not want to say. Something necessary, but I believe the [inaudible] were doing students a favor to let them attend the university, and that they were not sufficiently grateful for their opportunity. Politically, the faculty was by and large, very progressive, and there were a number of excellent professors who taught... Give me a... Who used materials such as by Howard Zen and other liberal political scientists. There were George Moscone and Harvey Goldberg come to mind as two professors who were teaching political science in a... I mean, I am searching for a word. I do not want to say alternative way, but using-using materials that were not customary. SM (00:13:57): Yeah. Yeah. Were the faculty more kind of partners with the students as opposed to... Were faculty mostly against the administration too? RS (00:14:10): I suppose it would depend on the department. SM (00:14:14): Right. RS (00:14:16): I do not want to make generalizations. This was a long time ago. SM (00:14:21): Right. RS (00:14:21): But I believe in the hard sciences, they were more conservative rather than in the liberal arts areas, they were, I believe, much more progressive. SM (00:14:34): Yeah, I know that it is hard to generalize, even when you talk about 74 million boomers. You can only... Depending on who you talk to, only about 5 percent to 10 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism during that area in the entire nation. RS (00:14:52): Well, I assure you, at the University of Wisconsin, it were much more demonstrations. Brought out on occasion 10,000, 20,000 people. SM (00:15:00): Wow. RS (00:15:01): And just very, very [inaudible]. SM (00:15:09): So, the relationship between... How was the relationship between students and the community of Madison and the Police Department of Madison during those four years? RS (00:15:19): Well, I believe it was a... I am hearing feedback. SM (00:15:27): I do not. I am fine on my end. Are you having feedback? RS (00:15:34): I am. It just started too. SM (00:15:37): Okay. Are you okay now or... RS (00:15:40): Let me see if I hear it. That is better. SM (00:15:42): Okay. RS (00:15:42): That is better. Could you restate the question? SM (00:15:47): Yeah. Well, the question was the relationship between the students and the community of Madison, the citizens of Madison, and- RS (00:15:54): I believe it was more like a traditional town versus gown atmosphere. Police, of course, being blue collar and from, by and large, parts of the city of Madison, which were not located near the campus, really disliked many of the students intensely. They viewed them as spoiled and... Let me think. Overprivileged people who were fortunate even to be there, and that they were in some ways desecrating a place where many of them had grown up. I can refer you to a movie called The War At Home, which is excellent. SM (00:16:45): I have it. RS (00:16:46): You have it? SM (00:16:46): Yes. RS (00:16:46): Okay. SM (00:16:49): Yeah. This is something too important, because I noticed this on my campus, but I wanted to hear from you. There seemed.... What was the relationship in the late (19)60s and early seventies between White students and African American students? There seemed to be a split. RS (00:17:07): In Madison, I think by... Or I should not say Madison. I said at the university, by and large, I think it was very good. SM (00:17:14): Because at around (19)69, (19)70, you noticed at Kent State, there were no students of color at that protest. They were told to basically not be seen by the African-American leaders of the campus, and actually the student government president was African-American, but what happened is during the Black Power there was a split where most of the white students continued protesting the Vietnam War and African American students started fighting for rights for African Americans, and so there was a split. Did you see that on your campus? RS (00:17:52): I really did not. I would say that they were not mutually exclusive, that many of the activities involved both. There was a large overlap. SM (00:18:04): Yeah. It got so bad at Ohio State University that in (19)71 and (19)72, in the Ohio Union, African American students had their own separate dances and White students had their dances in another part of the building, so there was some tension there. RS (00:18:22): I cannot recall something like that happening. I am not saying that it did not. But I vividly recall events such as what happened on the night of the massacre at Kent State with police charging groups of students, police helicopters hovering overhead, massive amount of tear gas. They used so much tear gas on the campus that they eventually ran out and switched to pepper gas, which hurt you more. SM (00:18:53): Oh my, God. Did you guys have graduation that year, or did they close the school? RS (00:18:58): No, everything happened, but the classes after Kent State were... I should not say the word canceled. Were switched to using a pass/fail system for the semester. But the police would throw tear gas everywhere students congregated, whether it was in the student union, the library... I should not say the library. Let me strike that. I cannot promise that. In the student union, fraternity houses, places of worship, anywhere that students congregated to get away from them. No place was safe. SM (00:19:37): Who were some of the speakers that you saw that came to your campus during the year (19)68 to (19)72? I do not know if you went to see these speakers. Could be national leaders or activists; did you go to see speakers? RS (00:19:58): I have to tell you. In all honesty, I do not remember. I am sure I did, but I cannot recall specific people. I just know that many of them came to campus, including people during Chicago Southern Conspiracy trial. But yes, many, many people came to campus. I believe Todd Gitlin, who had former president of SDS, Tom Hayden, I believe Paul Krassner came. Many, many people came to the campus, but frankly, I was not as interested in the leaders as I was learning about the issues. SM (00:20:39): Very good. What was the relationship between the protestors on campus at Wisconsin and members of fraternities and sororities and some of the student athletes and the ROTC students? RS (00:20:56): Initially, it seemed like an adversarial relationship, but what the police actions and the administration's conduct resulted in was radicalizing formerly conservative people like fraternity members. When the police come in and throw tear gas in your fraternity, you suddenly do not like them quite much. SM (00:21:19): Oh my, God. Yeah. RS (00:21:22): So, they had a reverse effect from what they intended in that they caused people to question authority and say that things did not work as they had assumed that they were. SM (00:21:42): Oh, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting because that is what the free speech movement was all about. A lot of the people in Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, did not agree with the new left and their politics, but when they were not allowed to hand out literature, that was an attack on all students and they all kind of united. RS (00:22:04): I think this was a longstanding policy by the University of California to keep the campus "pure". SM (00:22:11): Yes. RS (00:22:12): And refrain from any political activity on campus, which included the setting up of card tables with literature on them, which resulted in the free speech movement in the fall of (19)64. SM (00:22:32): And it is interesting too, that what was going on in American in the fifties, were there fear of communists and that kind of led to some of the mentality of college administrations and so forth. Did you see the evolution of other movements on your campus at that time? Because you were on a university campus in (19)68 to (19)72 when just about all the movements came to fruition, particularly in the early seventies, because that is when the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, and even the Black Power and a lot of the Black Panthers, kind of all evolved around that timeframe as kind of an offshoot of the anti-war movement and civil rights movements. Did you see those evolving on your campus? RS (00:23:19): I knew they were present, including the environmental movement that I previously mentioned, but the primary issue for me was the Vietnam War, and for many, I believe. People my age were being sent over there to die for what many of us thought was no logical reason until they already left. I believe that the goals were not really clear enough to make the... Let me rephrase that. I believe that young people did not see that the end justified the means. SM (00:24:08): And what were some of your classes like? Did you have professors that said, "Today, I am not going to teach my class. We are going to talk about what is going on in the world?" There seemed to be some of that. Did you have that in any of your classes? RS (00:24:21): Yes, I did. It was easy to do when you smelled tear gas [inaudible] through the windows of the classroom. SM (00:24:27): Yeah. What were some of those conversations? You are sitting in a room with all your fellow students. What were some of the thoughts that were going through some of those young people's minds? RS (00:24:40): Well, I think most of the people were as naive as I was when we started. It was quite an eye-opener. Of course, there were a few students from Europe that did not see this as anything unusual who thought socialism was... God, let me rephrase. That is awful. I am making generalizations. But we discussed socialism and other more leftist ideas as if they were completely normal and nothing to be afraid of. But again, for myself and for many people being suburbanized. This was quite an eye-opener. SM (00:25:23): Oh, yeah. So in the... And were there any teach-ins at your school? RS (00:25:30): I remember one for the environment. I remember for the Vietnam War. I also remember reading lists of people who had died that week. The area around the university library became probably the main meeting area for student demonstrations. And at times there were many thousands of people there. SM (00:26:01): Now, these demonstrations, were they approved or did they just kind of happened? RS (00:26:07): They were spontaneous in many times, and often people would hand out pieces of paper saying, "Meeting 8:00 PM, library mall," or something like that, to make it an event that was passed. Information was passed on from person to person without a great deal of publicity, presumably to keep it [inaudible] from the authorities. SM (00:26:36): So a lot of times when it happened, the police were at the sides then watching the students. RS (00:26:42): Well, I do not know for sure, but I have a feeling that the police were in with the students as well. SM (00:26:48): You are probably right because infiltration was very big in those days, particularly in groups like SDS. We all know about the book that came out in the 19(19)80s called Rads. RS (00:27:05): Yes. SM (00:27:05): Which is where the lab was blown up at the University of Wisconsin and one student died. RS (00:27:10): [inaudible]. SM (00:27:13): Yeah. I do not... Could you give a little more information on the... I think that happened when you were there. RS (00:27:19): Well, actually it happened while I was a student, but it happened during the summer and I was not on campus when it happened. SM (00:27:28): Well, what was it all... Could you tell a little bit more about it? Because people have not read the book of Rads or... What was it? Who did it? Did anybody pay the price for the bombing of it? And who was the young man who died and what was the reaction of the campus, particularly when school started in the fall? RS (00:27:47): It happened at, I believe, 3:45 in the morning and was purposely designed so not to hurt anyone, and it was assumed that nobody would be in the Army Research Center at 3:45 in the morning. Four people were involved; three of which were punished, and one has never been caught. SM (00:28:15): Were they students? RS (00:28:17): I believe that... I should not answer that. I cannot answer that question. I believe to a [inaudible] for certain. I do not remember. But there were two brothers, Dwight and Carl Armstrong, and two other people named David Fine and Leo Bert. I believe Leo Burt has never been caught. SM (00:28:40): And the other three, did they serve time in jail or... RS (00:28:45): I know Carl Armstrong did. I believe his brother Dwight did, and I believe David Fine did as well, but I cannot be for sure about him. SM (00:28:59): Now. What was- RS (00:29:00): I know for certain Carl Armstrong. SM (00:29:02): What summer were- RS (00:29:02): Actually, let me interrupt you for one sec. They were actually from Madison, the brothers, which was quite a shock to the Madison community that some of their own could be involved in this. Many, many times activities were blamed on out-of-state agitators. Yet they were from the same town. SM (00:29:31): And they were students too then, correct? At Wisconsin? You are not sure. RS (00:29:36): I am not sure. They were older than me. I believe they may have been students before I got there. SM (00:29:43): When you came back in the fall, was that the number one topic of discussion? RS (00:29:47): It was. It was really stunning to see this huge building reduced... Well, damaged. I should not say reduced. Damaged substantially. And it was quite an eye-opener, again, for young people who had not seen anything like that before. SM (00:30:10): You went on to law school. Now, you mentioned early on in the interview that you kind of knew in high school you wanted to be a lawyer. Why? RS (00:30:22): I wanted to help people. Law is very complex. I thought I could get involved and make changes in society and in an individual's life in a meaningful way. SM (00:30:42): And so probably your undergraduate degree... RS (00:30:47): Political science. SM (00:30:48): Yeah. Political science was a good preparation for that. RS (00:30:51): It was. It was. Again, I got an excellent education at the University of Huntington. SM (00:30:57): That is a great school. RS (00:31:02): It was a fine school, and I also got a street education. SM (00:31:08): Did you join organizations? RS (00:31:10): Excuse me. Let me interrupt you for- SM (00:31:11): Yep. RS (00:31:11): For some of the students, parents gave them gas masks before they departed for campus for fall. SM (00:31:19): Oh my, God. RS (00:31:19): Do not believe that happens today. Parent giving their sons and daughters gas masks for the upcoming year at school. SM (00:31:31): I wonder how many parents said, "Do not get involved in any protests." RS (00:31:36): Well, not only do not get involved, but do not sign anything. Many of the parents will remember the Red Scare. Do not join any groups. Do not sign any petitions. Quite fearful of repercussions for political activity. SM (00:31:54): Wow. So your plan was to become a lawyer. What did you specialize in law? RS (00:32:05): I did what was called tort work involving personal injury worker's compensation, and occasional medical malpractice. But one thing I am very proud of is representing over 600 Vietnam veterans for free on the Agent Orange class action litigation. SM (00:32:25): Yeah. I am going to go... I have a question on that. I am going to go... That was later in my interview, but that is very important. I have got a question here regarding this. You represented vets linked to Agent Orange. How did that happen? RS (00:32:40): Can you be a little more specific? SM (00:32:44): Yeah. Did one vet come to you and say, "We need help for the 600," or... RS (00:32:53): That is exactly what happened. One vet came to my office and said he had been in Vietnam and had a terrible, terrible rash on his skin, and he did not know what it was from. I said... That is bad grammar. What had caused it? I started dealing with a nurse at the Veteran Administration Hospital on the west side of Chicago where they had been seeing a number of people for these unexplained problems. Her name was Maude DeVictor, and when she saw that I was involved and not interested in obtaining anything for my services, but trying to help, she started referring a few clients to me. And I was one of the first 50 people in the law... I should say, attorneys in the country involved. SM (00:33:50): Wow. It is a big issue. Still is. RS (00:33:53): Well, this resulted in me receiving a death threat and having my telephone tapped. SM (00:34:00): Really? RS (00:34:01): Yes. SM (00:34:03): That is after you were working very hard on behalf of the 600? RS (00:34:07): Yes. I mean, I worked in conjunction with attorneys both locally in Chicago and across the nation, meeting with epidemiologists and other experts in diseases regarding the cause. And one of the attorneys I worked with in Chicago was a very establishment lawyer, but he was so convinced that his phone was being tapped, that he was tape-recording all of his own conversations. SM (00:34:40): And you think you were being tapped? RS (00:34:44): I heard the clicks on my line repeatedly. SM (00:34:49): Who do you think was tapping you? RS (00:34:52): I do not want to speculate. SM (00:34:54): Okay. Who would be against helping veterans though? Unless it is the government. Anyways. RS (00:35:02): Well, the chemical company- SM (00:35:03): ... Anyways. RS (00:35:03): Well, the chemical companies were making a great deal of money from this product. SM (00:35:06): Right. RS (00:35:09): The lawsuit included Dow Monsanto, Diamond Shamrock and a number of other chemical companies in addition to the US government. SM (00:35:22): What was the final result of the lawsuit? RS (00:35:28): In 1984, the class action case was settled. I would have to check, but I believe the settlement result was $180 million. I believe there were changes subsequently, but the time I was involved, the maximum they were paying was approximately $14,000 to the survivor of someone who had died as a result of the Agent Orange exposure due to cancer, leukemia or other problems. People with lesser problems got less. SM (00:36:07): So in the end it was more than just the 600. It was people all over- RS (00:36:15): We represented approximately a little over 600, but there were many, many thousands of claims. SM (00:36:22): And that is still an issue today. RS (00:36:26): I know it is. I know it is. SM (00:36:26): I am met a vet down on Veterans Day at The Wall who was having a hard time. He has got Agent Orange issues and having a hard time getting his medical coverage and so forth. For those young people who will be reading this and certainly students that were not alive during the Vietnam War, can you explain what Agent Orange is and what it did in Vietnam? RS (00:36:54): It is a chemical defoliant. The purpose of spraying Agent Orange was to kill all the vegetation, so that the enemy could not hide. It was sprayed in areas along the rivers, basically the forest to just kill everything, to prevent the North Vietnamese from having cover, and it caused horrible defects, birth defects, miscarriages, and apparently is one of the most toxic. Agent Orange was contaminated during its manufacture by a... I have to start again. I am not phrasing this right. The production of Agent Orange caused a byproduct called dioxin. Dioxin is one of the most toxic substances known to man. A miniscule amount can cause terrible problems and the subsequent discovery during the case, showed that the government had known about it since 1957, that it caused terrible problems. SM (00:38:15): And so these Vietnam vets were coming back after serving their nation, and they were having a hard time getting medical coverage for this issue. RS (00:38:25): Yes. SM (00:38:26): And it kept going year after year after year. I know politicians got involved in it. In fact, I just talked to Bob Edgar last week, the former congressman. He went back to Vietnam, I think it was about a month ago, and Agent Orange is still an issue in Vietnam because so many of the population was affected by it. RS (00:38:48): Well, also, in addition to spraying it, what would happen is it would accumulate in ponds, and people would drink water from these ponds in incredibly high concentrations of the chemical. SM (00:39:02): Yeah, it is terrible. What did that say about... Vietnam Vets obviously are not the anti-war protestors. Some came back, became veterans against the war, John Kerry and that group, Bobby Muller. But what did that say to those veterans who came back to America after serving their nation? What do you think the lesson that comes out of this? RS (00:39:31): Some of them that I represent, were very-very bitter. Basically, many of them considered themselves chemical cannon fodder. And that they were knowingly exposed to something that eventually caused many of them to die. SM (00:39:56): Wow. Yeah, that is a major issue, and that is certainly an issue that was known by anyone alive at that time. I do not know whether you were for or against the war or anything in between, Agent Orange was in the news constantly. When you were at Northwestern, you had mentioned something just on your email to me. You said when you went there to law school, you say it could not have been more different on that campus than it was at Madison. Explain the difference between Northwestern Law School and clinical science undergrad at Wisconsin? RS (00:40:41): I was barely familiar with Northwestern Law School because my father went to law school there. In fact, when I was a little kid, I was dressed up wearing a tee-shirt that said Northwestern Law when I was a toddler. I knew about the place. I got a very good legal education, very conservative corporate oriented school. The old saying when I was there was that, you go to the University of Chicago to become a judge... Excuse me, I should say law school, University of Chicago Law School to become a judge. And they go to the Northwestern Law School to become a corporation council. So again, I got a very good legal education, but politics were not relevant to learning the law and their view. In fact, my corporation's professor... I do not know if I should give his name because I do not want to- SM (00:41:45): No, you do not need to do that. RS (00:41:47): But said in a discussion of corporate law, morality and ethics were irrelevant. SM (00:41:57): Well, I think Berkeley students in (19)64, (19)65 realize that. RS (00:42:07): We were there to learn the law, and in that way, it was an old school Socratic method type of education. If you are familiar with the movie, The Paper Chase. SM (00:42:18): Yes, I am. RS (00:42:21): It was very much like that. SM (00:42:23): Wow. I forget the lawyer that was in that, the older actor. Oh, he was good. RS (00:42:28): Named... SM (00:42:30): I see him now. RS (00:42:32): John Houseman. SM (00:42:33): Yeah. What a great professor. And I think, was it Ryan O'Neill? RS (00:42:36): Timothy Bottoms. SM (00:42:38): Oh, that is right. Timothy Bottoms. You got it. RS (00:42:41): And it was based on a corporation... Let me see, corporation's law professor at Harvard. SM (00:42:52): Yeah. I had here because you were at such an activist university as an undergrad and you went to Northwestern. I am sure there probably was some activism there for the undergrads, but the question I was... Basically was three things here. Bear in mind as I mention these, was the difference when you made that statement because of the campus and the type of students that were there. Number two, the things were beginning to wind down, and the anti-war movement, particularly around that time of (19)72, (19)73, (19)74 and people were tired of the acrimony. And third, that law school, the people were career oriented. They wanted to get a good job, money and a career, and they were not into social issues anymore, because they were going for a career. Did all those play a part in the differences of the two campuses? RS (00:43:47): To say that they were career oriented would be an understatement. Many people went to the law school, and again, I cannot speak for everyone because I did not speak to everyone in my class. By and large, many students knew that once they graduated, after having done well in law school, they were looking for jobs at the large corporate oriented law firms in Chicago and elsewhere. SM (00:44:24): Were there- RS (00:44:24): Which paid very well. SM (00:44:26): Were there many lawyers that said, I am going to go back and work around a university to help students, and not make that much money? RS (00:44:34): Not that I recall. SM (00:44:36): I know that was a big thing at that time for law students. They can go back and represent college students. Did you sense that when you were at Northwestern, that things were winding down in the anti-war movement? RS (00:44:52): Well, they were. The war was winding down. We had missed the draft. Miss is the wrong word, had not been drafted and self-interest seemed like it was the rule of the day. SM (00:45:15): In those years, (19)75 to (19)81, you practiced law, that was in Chicago, correct? RS (00:45:24): Yes. SM (00:45:24): Now, this is a fulfillment question. Did you feel more fulfilled during those six years as a lawyer, or were you more fulfilled as a college student during your four years at the University of Wisconsin? RS (00:45:38): No, I would call college more a formative experience than a fulfilling experience. It was sort of like making a piece of sculpture where at first you have to put the body and the arms on, before you can make the fingernails look the way they are supposed to. SM (00:45:56): Right. RS (00:46:00): It was more formative. I was oriented toward being an attorney, but I was not quite sure what area of law I wanted to do. I just knew that it was a vehicle for helping people who did not know the law, understand it and wind their way through the system with as little trouble as possible. SM (00:46:29): Yeah. I put down here because I concentrate a little bit. We are going to get into memorabilia in a few minutes, but I think your college years are fascinating and that your career's fascinating, just from what you have given on your brief email. RS (00:46:47): Off the record, you were asking me to pull up memories that are 40 years old. My short-term memories is not what it used-used to be, but neither is the rest of me. SM (00:46:55): Yeah, but I can tell from the way you are responding though, that these memories are important to you. RS (00:47:03): They were exciting... I should not say. They were incredibly exciting, interesting, vibrant times. SM (00:47:10): Yes. RS (00:47:11): You woke up in the morning never knowing what that day would bring. There was an excitement and electricity in the air, that I just do not see happening anymore. SM (00:47:23): Yeah. RS (00:47:23): It was an incredible time to be alive. SM (00:47:28): Yeah. I can remember taking buses from school. Just getting on a Greyhound bus and if you were a young person, you had this... Not that you were arrogant, but you felt like what a world we were living in. It was just a feeling, there were some bad things happening in the world, but there seemed to be some sort of unity between the youth at that time. RS (00:47:50): Well, you are absolutely right. There were so many idealistic, risk taking young people, who believed that anything was possible. SM (00:48:02): Right. RS (00:48:04): They sought to transform society with emotional and physical commitment, and boundless, often playful energy. Our distrust of the establishment, also known as the Man, was prevalent. Also with varying degrees of success, young people tried to manifest their own divinity. Consciousness raising was taken seriously as a truth seeking path towards personal enlightenment and positive social change. SM (00:48:38): Did you read any of those books of that era when you were a college student? Some of the best books ever came out in that- RS (00:48:47): [inaudible] Carlos Castañeda? SM (00:48:48): Yeah. RS (00:48:49): Of course. SM (00:48:51): Yeah. Of course, I know that Saul Alinsky was a big person because I think he is out of Chicago. RS (00:48:57): He was- SM (00:48:59): Was it Rules for Radicals? RS (00:49:01): He was a community organizer. I actually have a signed copy, first edition of his book, Rules for Radicals. SM (00:49:08): Keep it, it is valuable and pass it on. RS (00:49:12): I intend to. SM (00:49:13): It is an unbelievable thing because I know Hillary Clinton was influenced by him when she was a student. And then of course the other books were... I do not know if you read The Greening of America by Charles Reich? RS (00:49:28): I have a copy, which I had signed by him about 10 years ago. SM (00:49:33): Wow. I am trying to interview him. In February he is coming back to teach a course at Yale Law School. He is kind of hibernated, he lives in San Francisco. RS (00:49:40): Yes. SM (00:49:43): But I do not even know how to get ahold of- RS (00:49:43): He lives in Mill Valley. I am not certain. He may have... I should not say that. I do not know. He is in the Bay Area. SM (00:49:51): Yeah. RS (00:49:52): If I may, one of the most significant developments of the 1960, was really greatly increased involvement of young people in the political process. People got involved. They were passionate. If you have ever seen any video or film from the protests, people put their bodies on the line. SM (00:50:21): Right. RS (00:50:22): And many were beaten. They risked being tear gassed for what they believed. I do not really see that happening today. It is as if young... To me, and perhaps it is aging that says this, but there is not the passion. They are almost defeated before they begin, many of them. It seems like an end to, why fight the system we cannot win. Well, that is self-defeating. You will never know if you can win or not if you do not step the ring. SM (00:50:57): That is what Teddy Roosevelt said, " Got to get into the arena of life." RS (00:51:06): I did not know. Truly, I did not know, but many of them seem defeated and they have been... As George Carlin said, many of them been bought off by gizmo's and gadgets. SM (00:51:18): And of course George knew that those... What is it? The eight words he could not say or something like that... RS (00:51:23): Seven. SM (00:51:25): Seven. He said them anyways. RS (00:51:28): He did them at the Milwaukee Summerfest concert, I believe 1970, he was arrested for them. SM (00:51:33): Wow. RS (00:51:34): But it was a really exciting, electric time to be alive. There were so many changes taking place in society. If you want, I can give you a few obvious ones. SM (00:51:49): Yeah, go ahead. RS (00:51:51): I mean like a revolution in fashion, highlighted bright colors and tie-dyed clothes, long hair on men, replaced short cropped haircuts. New developments in graphic art, including the use of nonlinear writing and flowing colors, marked a pretty stark departure from the past. That was most evident in posters produced to promote rock events, but not exclusive. Television seemed like a fairly conservative medium and a skewed controversy. They started showing rock and roll performers and highlighting drama with frank and sometimes explicit adult themes. The sudden and prolific emergence of underground newspapers and comics. SM (00:52:47): Yes. RS (00:52:47): Disseminate liberal ideas and breakthroughs in art to an interested, sympathetic audience, that could be counted in millions. Again, this is long before email, cell phones, the widespread use of fax machines. I do not know if you want to write this, but I have many leaflets, these were vehicles of communication. People would hand out handbills. SM (00:53:18): Right. RS (00:53:21): And actually little notes, demonstration 8:00 PM, Library Mall, which I know I said, but this is how people communicated often. Underground newspapers and underground comics as well, you can include them. There has always been a bohemian or nonconformist or countercultural movement in America, which is parallel of mainstream society, consisting of free thinkers who were dissatisfied with conventional values, and people who sought emotional and spiritual satisfaction in ways other than the acquisition of wealth and power. And conformity, for do not sake, was seen as a compensation for a lack of ability, or I will say courage, for yourself. SM (00:54:15): Yeah. That is beautiful. RS (00:54:19): I mean, this is how I feel, and it was a rebellion against conformity, but it became more open as opposed to people in the (19)50s. The Beats who I admire very much, were really well mocked and I want to say pigeonholed. Could say the water overflowed the cup and it was impossible for the establishment to keep it inside. SM (00:54:48): Hold on a second. [inaudible]. RS (00:54:57): A year or two ago, when he received a lifetime achievement award for his writing, was held in the [inaudible] public library. SM (00:55:03): Is that the same ceremony that Paul was involved in? RS (00:55:06): No, that was in Oakland. It was the Pen. P-E-N. SM (00:55:10): Okay. RS (00:55:11): Oakland. SM (00:55:12): Yep. RS (00:55:17): But I believe this might have been Pen San Francisco, but I would go to every reading I could have, and he has not done one in a long, long time. SM (00:55:24): Yeah. Someone said his health is not very good. RS (00:55:28): It is unfortunate to hear, because he was a really active guy. He would swim at the YMCA regularly, drive his bike when he was in his (19)70s, through traffic in San Francisco. SM (00:55:40): Yeah, I got some of his books. I got another question here. Are you finished with that information or... RS (00:55:54): But I am here for whatever you want to... SM (00:55:56): Yeah. This period, (19)68 to (19)72, you already talked about your senior year when you graduated. And you talked about the 1968 in Chicago and MLK, but some other major events that took place during those four years away from your college, was Woodstock in (19)69 and certainly... I got a list of them here. I will just list these and then you can comment on any of them as a whole. You had the Kent State, Jackson State of 1970. You had the big protest in Washington in 1969, known as the Moratorium. In 1969, you had the first openly major protest, Stonewall for gay and lesbian people in New York City. Then you had Altamont that some people say was really the end of the (19)60s, because you had Woodstock, then you had Altamont. Then you had Attica at the prisons. You had the American Indian Movement from (19)67 to (19)71, that began with Alcatraz and ended at Wounded Knee. You had the Black Panther trials, particularly the one in Yale or in New Haven. Earth Day in 1970. You had the Angela Davis situation with George Jackson over at San Quentin. [inaudible]. Then you had the SDS going to the Weathermen. Then you had Johnson withdrawing from the race in (19)68, and then you had Agnew- RS (00:57:31): That was quite a stunner. That was quite a stunner. SM (00:57:32): And then you had Agnew going all over these campuses, yelling about hobnobs and all the other things, attacking young people and- RS (00:57:45): [inaudible]. SM (00:57:45): Yeah. And then of course Nixon was elected in (19)68 and (19)72, and then we had The Pentagon papers with Ellsberg, and then the evolution of Vietnam Veterans Against the War in (19)71. Then of course you had the hippies and the Yippies and so forth. All these things happened during that (19)68 to (19)72 period. RS (00:58:02): Yes. SM (00:58:04): You were obviously aware of all of them. Any of these stand out, that... RS (00:58:10): Well, again, being in Madison, Madison was isolated in the sense that it was not anywhere near another metropolitan area. The closest one was Milwaukee, which is approximately 90 miles away. And while being a wonderful place, we did not really interact much... How should we say? People came to campus, spoke or whatever, and left. It was not as if they were there permanently, as if you were in a large city like New York or Chicago. I was aware of what was going on through reading the newspaper, television and radio, but I did not go to any of those specific events you mentioned. SM (00:59:01): Were students... Did you see the- RS (00:59:02): These were rock festivals in the Madison area and Milwaukee. SM (00:59:13): Yeah. Did you see on the campus though, the evolution of the Black Panthers, from the nonviolent protest ala Dr. King, and then you saw the SDS, and then they went to become the Weatherman. What were your thoughts on those? This was a big transition. RS (00:59:35): It was. I had mixed emotions. On the one hand, I felt frustrated that no matter what we did, did not seem to make any difference. But on the other hand, I felt that some of the other activities such as the bombings, could possibly be counterproductive and not change the minds of the people whose minds we wanted to change. SM (01:00:02): The contrast, again, when you see Altamont, then you compare it to Woodstock. What seemed to be (19)69, and then Altamont was (19)70, was the exact opposite. Then you had the- RS (01:00:19): There were too many factors involved with that to make a real comparison. Woodstock sort of happened. SM (01:00:26): Right. RS (01:00:28): And it is wonderful that it did. Altamont seemed like a convergence of just the bad things. SM (01:00:37): Yeah. It was tragic up there with the motorcycle gang that beat up that guy, and of course... [inaudible] and then some of the atrocities in Vietnam are coming out at this time, revealed to the American public and... RS (01:00:54): Quite stunning to a suburban kid. SM (01:00:56): Yeah. And then of course, the American Indian movie went from Alcatraz, which was a good thing, to Wounded Knee, which was bad. RS (01:01:06): Yeah. SM (01:01:06): So you have a lot of these interesting contrasts. I did not know if they affected the students there or not. To go over the books again, we mentioned the Greening of America with Charles Reich, but there was another one. There were several others too. There was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. RS (01:01:28): Yeah, I met him again about a year ago, this year actually. Very bright, interesting person. I believe his new book is The Making of the Elder Culture. SM (01:01:39): Yeah, I wanted to interview him, but he says he is retired and he has got a health issue. RS (01:01:48): He do not look the healthiest, but when he took the book reading, he was in Berkeley. He was very good. SM (01:01:56): Good. Yeah, and then the other ones were of course, Soul on Ice with Eldridge Cleaver and Harry Edwards Black Students. And you had The Other America by Michael Harrington and... RS (01:02:08): Yes. SM (01:02:08): And then there was the Erik Erikson's books on the psychology, I believe of the American youth at that time, and I know Kenneth Keniston also wrote a book, Youth and Radical. So, there is a lot of really good books out that I did not know if they were popular on college campuses. RS (01:02:27): They were. People like Abbie Hoffman's book Steal This Book. Gary Ruben's [inaudible] of course, The Realist by Paul Krassner, it was great. But a lot of the information we got was from underground newspapers. They seemed more willing to print what we thought was the truth. SM (01:02:52): What were the underground papers you liked? RS (01:02:52): There was one in Madison called Takeover, which was good. Chicago Seed was very good. I did not really see much of the Berkeley Barb being where I was, but I would heard of it. SM (01:03:06): Right. RS (01:03:07): And these which other I knew, was very significant. Occasionally I saw a copy. SM (01:03:12): Did you ever read Ramparts? RS (01:03:13): Sure. SM (01:03:14): Yeah. RS (01:03:14): Sure. Excellent investigative journalism at the time. SM (01:03:21): Yeah. Peter Richardson's got a whole book out on it right now. RS (01:03:23): He did a reading here. I want to go off the record with this but Warren Hinckle became an alcoholic. It was just not a [inaudible] at a bar and he was just... To use a cliche, a shell of his former self. SM (01:03:40): Yeah. I tried to get him to be interviewed and Peter told me the only way you can find him is in a bar. RS (01:03:45): Yes. I do not know, and I should not be saying this, and I ask you not to repeat it, but I think he and Paul Krassner must have had a falling out because he and Paul... And I cannot remember why exactly, but we walked into some place where Warren Hinckle was there and did not even say a hello to each other. SM (01:04:03): Well- RS (01:04:04): Unusual for people who shared many of the same values. SM (01:04:08): Yeah, it is not Paul. I think a lot of people realize he is a drunk. I am not going to say that, but I do not even know him. RS (01:04:19): Peter. SM (01:04:20): Peter said the only way he got the interview, and he was talking about it because Hinckle was brilliant. What a writer. RS (01:04:28): Yeah. SM (01:04:28): But he always had a problem with alcohol and- RS (01:04:32): Oh, I should add Rolling Stone to my group. SM (01:04:34): Yeah, he probably will die an alcoholic. RS (01:04:40): I would not be surprised. The way I saw him drinking, I am surprised he is alive now, but I do not want to pass judgment. SM (01:04:45): Yeah. RS (01:04:46): It is unfortunate. Who knows the pressures that he was under from the government or God knows who else. SM (01:04:55): Right. Yeah. Of the personalities of the (19)60s and (19)70s, who were the ones that you feel had the greatest impact on the generation, or particularly had the greatest impact on you who were a part of the generation? RS (01:05:06): I would have to start with Ken Kesey. Yeah, I remember a quote of his, and I may be butchering it, but I believe it was, "Most people are destined to leave their lives never having moved off of dead center? SM (01:05:23): Wow. That is a beautiful quote. RS (01:05:25): I did not want to be one of those people. SM (01:05:27): Very good. RS (01:05:29): I did not want to be one of those people. What he did in terms of promulgating light shows that... I do not want to say promulgate, that is the wrong word. Of using light shows, of course, the Grateful Dead is his house band. SM (01:05:48): Right. RS (01:05:48): And Acid in the Punch Bowl when it was still legal, probably after it was illegal. Seemed like they were the counter culturals, I will say funsters. Of course their name was Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. SM (01:06:13): Yeah, it is Wavy Gravy, I believe. RS (01:06:13): Yes. SM (01:06:13): And Paul was in their group? RS (01:06:16): Yes. As opposed to Timothy Leary, who as you know, begin doing scientific research, the [inaudible] and other hallucinogens. I remember reading about how bummed out Kesey and the Pranksters were going to Millbrook in upstate New York, and they were taking everything so seriously at Millbrook, which is not the wrong thing to do, but it was a very different approach from the West Coast. SM (01:06:46): Were there any other personalities besides Ken Kesey, that you think really shaped the generation, and then you as a part of the generation? RS (01:06:57): I liked Paul Krassner's writing very much. SM (01:07:02): I got a couple of his books, but I got to get more. RS (01:07:04): And The Realist was a wonderful publication. Of course, you never know what was true and what was not. SM (01:07:16): Right. His sense of humor is unbelievable though. RS (01:07:19): Oh, he is a brilliant, brilliant man. He told a story about writing an article for the AARP Magazine, and when he got it, his article was not... They told him they would publish it and it was not in there. They called him and they told, they published three different magazines, one for people over 50, one for people over 60, one for people over 70. He was surprised to find out he was too old to read his own writing. SM (01:07:47): He said they had a- RS (01:07:51): He said that many times. Yeah, he said that- SM (01:08:00): I am laughing just... And I saw it yesterday on YouTube. RS (01:08:04): Still I love him. SM (01:08:06): He is a great guy. I got to meet him. I am going to come to LA next time instead of San Francisco. RS (01:08:10): He is in the Palm Springs area. SM (01:08:13): Yeah. How far is that from LA? RS (01:08:17): You got me. I cannot answer that. I know it... I do not know. SM (01:08:21): I know Cleve Jones moved there too. The AIDS quilt guy. RS (01:08:27): Okay. SM (01:08:30): He left San Francisco. He got tired of the overcast skies, so he is not there in San Francisco anymore. A lot of people are moving down there, according to what I am hearing. What do you think were the most impactful movies in that time that you were in college, that you remember, that you think were very influential on... RS (01:08:53): Haskell Wexler's Medium Cool, very interesting, being from Chicago. It is a cinéma verité film, a great deal of which was filmed at the Democratic Convention Street protests, it was good. Arthur Penn's Bonnie and Clyde was a new type of movie. Maybe I should not say new type. It was influential. Joe with Peter Boyle was a frightening movie. SM (01:09:22): I remember that. Yeah. RS (01:09:26): Joe was a very, I will say a conservative person, who at the end ended up shooting his own daughter. He was goaded into... Excuse me, I should not say that. Let me back up. I made a mistake about the content of the movie. Should I just say it was a very influential movie about extremely conservative… SM (01:09:54): Yeah. RS (01:09:55): I do not want to use the word redneck, because he was a northerner. SM (01:10:00): Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is... SM (01:10:02): Well, only about 150 million are going to read this, so it is... RS (01:10:02): Well, how about if I just say he was a very influential... It was a very influential... SM (01:10:11): Yeah, that is fine. Any others? I always want to know- RS (01:10:17): Well, Woodstock of course. SM (01:10:18): Oh, yeah. RS (01:10:19): Groundbreaking movie in terms of its techniques and portrayal so many phenomenal rock bands. Similarly, Monterey Pop. SM (01:10:28): Hmm. RS (01:10:32): And Give Me Shelter by the Maysles brothers of Altamont was a- SM (01:10:37): Yeah. RS (01:10:37): ... great movie. And of course, Easy Rider. SM (01:10:40): Yes. RS (01:10:41): Which was frightening, which I saw in LA in 1969 and walked out of there with friends shaking. SM (01:10:43): Yeah, I did not expect that ending. RS (01:10:53): I do not think anybody. SM (01:10:54): I often wondered when his friend got shot away, why he kept going. RS (01:11:01): Well, he turned around and then he got to... there was a prequel, it was showing the future before it happened. SM (01:11:09): Oh, okay. RS (01:11:10): And he turned, Dennis Hopper, turned around and got shot too. SM (01:11:14): Yeah. RS (01:11:16): But that was a frightening movie. SM (01:11:20): How about the Graduate? Was that the- RS (01:11:21): Very interesting film. Saw it and was still in high school. SM (01:11:30): And then, the Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was supposed to be about the sexual mores of the era. RS (01:11:36): Yes. Sexual mores at the [inaudible] in at the end. SM (01:11:40): Right. And I think there was another movie that seemed to be the Zabriski Point. RS (01:11:47): God, you have a good number. Yes, I think there was a Strawberry Statement as well. SM (01:11:52): Yeah. That came later. And then there was the Sterile Cuckoo, Liza Minnelli. RS (01:12:03): I should remember that. But I do not, all I remember was Liza Minnelli's name. SM (01:12:10): Yeah, and Wendell Burton- RS (01:12:13): Okay. Go ahead. SM (01:12:13): Yeah. Liza Minnelli and Wendell Burton. And then of course Shaft. RS (01:12:15): Yes. SM (01:12:16): Yeah. RS (01:12:16): Interesting. SM (01:12:22): Was there anything on TV that you think will really... Well, you mentioned about the black and white TV and the Boomers were all in junior, or excuse me, in elementary school during that period. Or, just when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody, I think of Captain Kangaroo, I think of Dave Garaway Peace. I think of Hopalong Cassidy Lone Ranger. RS (01:12:52): How about Pinky Lee? SM (01:12:53): Yeah, Pinky Lee. RS (01:12:54): Pee-wee Herman's... what is the word? Influence. SM (01:13:02): Yeah. Rootie Kazootie. But there was also Walt Disney and all those shows, the Mouseketeers, Westerns galore. Very few African-Americans- RS (01:13:14): Start with the political things. Like that was the week that was, I thought a very interesting TV show. SM (01:13:20): Right. RS (01:13:20): Taken from the British show doing politics. Of course Laugh-In. SM (01:13:26): That was the (19)60s though. RS (01:13:28): Yeah. The Smothers Brothers, of course. SM (01:13:30): Yep. RS (01:13:30): Were very influential. What they went through just to put on the people like Peter Seeger was unbelievable. SM (01:13:37): Uh-huh, yep. RS (01:13:42): I did not watch much TV, but there was, God, I am trying to... Ted Paulson Show, very good. SM (01:13:45): I know in the (19)50s, Edward R. Murrow was seen to be a pretty honest guy. RS (01:13:58): Was. SM (01:13:58): Yeah. RS (01:13:58): Then Walter Cronkite took up the mantle. SM (01:14:01): Right. RS (01:14:02): When he said the war in Vietnam was unwinnable, I think that was a little turning point of the country. SM (01:14:07): Mm-hmm. RS (01:14:09): But there were so many written influence, such as underground comics, Robert Crumb, like Zapp! Comics written for kids. SM (01:14:21): Oh yeah, and that made into a movie in 1971. RS (01:14:24): Yeah, which was not that wonderful, I saw it of course. SM (01:14:24): Right. RS (01:14:32): But there were, I mean, so many influential publications, so many underground newspapers, magazine comics, countercultural publication, it seemed like eventually some of it eventually seeped into mainstream society. SM (01:14:53): One question I have been asking everyone is today you have members of the right, or conservatives, attacking the (19)60s generation, or the boomers that were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reasons why we have all the problems in our society today, or most of them, because of the drug culture, the lack of sexual mores, i.e. the sexual revolution, the extreme divorce rate, breakup of the American family as a unit, the lack of going... families not going to church anymore. Went from going to church or synagogue to kind of an inner spirituality, and we saw that through the Beatles and the Maharishi and that group, the Moonies. Then we have, again, they attack the generation for the welfare state, the handout society, the sense of, "Well, I got to have it now." Type of an attitude, extensive consumerism where, "I got to have everything. I got to own everything. And, "If I cannot have it, I got to have it now." Kind of mentality. And that is why we have the financial problems we are in today. So, there is a lot of things. The other thing is too, that we have come into a society where it is all about rights. Everybody wants their rights, but lost them are irresponsible. Your thoughts of those attacks by people on the right? RS (01:16:46): I think back to a Bob Dylan line of, "Do not criticize what you cannot understand." SM (01:16:51): Well, that is good. RS (01:16:54): That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of what we tried to do. Making a more equitable and egalitarian society I think has been and always will be seen as a threat to the establishment. I mean, there have always been the proletariat, bourgeoisie, but in the electronic age, such as we have, it seems like things are happening so much faster. The concentration of wealth, I think was one of the major problems. It was not enough to make a lot, you had to make more, and the other person had to have less. I think it is up to that, I think it is based on fear by and large, that there is not enough to go around so, "I am going to get mine and good luck with yours." SM (01:17:43): Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is interesting because I know Randy Shaw, who you may know in San Francisco, the Tenderloin, and he also graduated from Berkeley. He wrote a book called The Activist Handbook. And in that handbook, he talks about the definition of what an activist is. And it is if you ever say the term, "What is in it for me?" You are not an activist because it is supposed to be, "What is in it for we?" And so that was interesting what you just said there, because there was some kind of a linkage. And how important- RS (01:18:30): I am a little punchy, so forgive me and please do not let me take things off the record, but it was about Plato being forced by the establishment to drink hemlock for telling the truth. SM (01:18:44): Mm-hmm, that is right. RS (01:18:48): You can include that. I am a little punchy, I was going to say Socrates... SM (01:18:51): Yeah, but there is true to that. Yeah, the sort of [inaudible]- RS (01:18:54): Because he taught young people what he believed was the truth. He ended up with a phony trial and being forced to drink hemlock, I think is nothing though. SM (01:19:03): I know there is a book up, but I.F. Stone wrote called The Trial of Socrates. RS (01:19:09): Stone wrote, yeah. Yes, yes. This is nothing new. SM (01:19:13): Yep. Now you mentioned that again. How important were The Beats in shaping the generation, in your opinion, in shaping certainly the new left? RS (01:19:27): Well, the older get, I guess the more I see their influence. I mean, so in America, there has always been a Bohemian side, but it seems like after World War II things seem to coalesce in certain areas, like Greenwich Village in New York City, North Beach area in San Francisco. Returning GIs from the war. Jazz musicians, liberal writers, they seemed to start gathering in certain places. Maybe they were always there, and I just did not know about it. But for example, in the early (19)50s, Lawrence Ferlinghetti opened up City Life Bookstore in San Francisco. He originally intended it only to be a store that sold only paperback books, but it became a magnet for disaffected writers and artists. Of course, he was put on trial for publishing Howl in 1956 an obscenity trial where the mores at the time said the police could decide what was obscene or not. If police did not like what you did, you did not do it. SM (01:20:46): Right. RS (01:20:46): Lenny Bruce is a good example. SM (01:20:50): And do you think that even that historic book that Kerouac wrote On the Road, it is symbolic of freedom, sense of- RS (01:21:01): Absolutely, it was adventures and observations of his encounters with America while being on the road. SM (01:21:07): And he is not being controlled by a boss, or by... he is just free. RS (01:21:13): Well, for me, it is a landmark of Pete writing was Ellen Ginsburg's Howl, you know about the dehumanization and degradation of the individual by the all-consuming corporate monolith. You know, you asked me about movies, Network was another one, which is- SM (01:21:34): Oh, yes. RS (01:21:34): ... very, very good. SM (01:21:37): Go out to that window and say, "I am not going to take it anymore." RS (01:21:41): Yes. But also Ed Beatty as, maybe the CEO or president of a large corporation. The world is business, and it is really sad that people see the world as a business. SM (01:21:58): Another movie that you brought up I just thought of is Deliverance. RS (01:22:04): Yes and no. I mean, that was a... SM (01:22:04): He was in that too. RS (01:22:11): Yes, he was. Oh, you brought him up. Yes. SM (01:22:13): Yep. RS (01:22:14): I do not know that that is relevant politically. SM (01:22:16): Right. RS (01:22:20): It was culture, culture clash. But Howl... SM (01:22:24): Yeah. RS (01:22:24): The thing with the... and with Network, forgive me, Peter Fitz said, "It was not America that was finished, it was the individual that was finished." Afraid things are going in that direction. It seemed as though in the (19)60s we could be one step ahead of the man. Right now, it seems with all the high tech equipment and other means of control, they are one step ahead of us. SM (01:22:56): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end, and what was the watershed moment? RS (01:23:03): I think it really began, if you want to speak about the (19)60s and not what led up to them, such as The Beats. I would say Ken Kesey, the epitaph, the Merry Pranksters and Grateful Dead, whom I like very, very much, playing long improvisational music. But Kesey was a very, very bright man exposing the world. The Magical Mystery Tour about the Beatles, as you know, was really a copy of what Kesey did. SM (01:23:43): When did it end? RS (01:23:46): Probably as the war wound down, the draft was abolished, it was became more self-interested, and less society... this is a bad phrasing, society interested. SM (01:24:01): Was there a watershed moment? RS (01:24:07): Possibly the reelection of Nixon, that area, that time, early (19)70s, after Jimmy Hendrix had died, Janice Joplin had died, Jim Morrison had died. Many political people, Fred Hampton had been assassinated in Chicago. It seemed to start losing its steam. SM (01:24:38): The generation gap. Did you have a generation gap of your parents, especially after you went off to college? RS (01:24:46): Yes and no. My father always said it was more important what was in my head then what was on it. And I believe that is true, we are hung up on the looks of rebellion rather than the ideas of rebellion. SM (01:25:05): Excellent. Yeah. There is no question that the generation gap was an issue between World War II generation and the boomers. Do you remember that Life magazine cover that had the boy on the cover that... wearing his blue glasses or whatever and the father's pointing a finger at him on one side of the glasses? RS (01:25:27): Yeah, I do. SM (01:25:28): And the son's pointing on the other. I had that magazine, it was pretty serious for many. RS (01:25:35): Well, I remember a quote that Ronald Reagan said while he was governor of California during protests at the University of California in Berkeley, "That if there is going to be a blood bath let us start now." He talked about killing people's own children. SM (01:25:54): Yeah, it is... And he came to power on two issues, this law and order on college campuses to end the student protestors from breaking up colleges, and secondly, to end the welfare state. And it is interesting because Watts took place in (19)64 in Los Angeles, so obviously what went on at Berkeley, what was going on in Watts and a lot of these things are directly related to him. And of course, that was a thrust onto the national stage in (19)76, and of course we know the rest of the history. RS (01:26:37): It was stunning how easily people were willing to... What is the word? Take extreme measures against people who thought different. SM (01:26:55): Right. RS (01:26:58): We used to call them the thought police, and I think we were right. SM (01:27:03): In your own words because you are a boomer and I guess you are 60, you were born in (19)49? RS (01:27:09): 60 going on 19. SM (01:27:12): That is... Time and peace, same with me. I am not 60. RS (01:27:17): I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do when I grow up. SM (01:27:21): Yeah, Rick, that is the same thing with me. RS (01:27:25): My hair is just as long, I have worked out a lot. No, you can grow older without growing old. SM (01:27:36): I agree. And I believe the young people of that era, even though they stay in shape to try to stay young and so forth, there was a period of time many did not think that they were going to be mortal people, but they were going to live forever, I think they realized they were not going to now. But you know- RS (01:27:57): I saw people in law school in their early 20s who look like old men. SM (01:28:04): Yeah. RS (01:28:04): Not physically, but so much is spiritually. SM (01:28:08): Right. RS (01:28:09): You could see the... Yeah, their adolescence was a distant memory. SM (01:28:17): Yep. RS (01:28:17): Was all about the buck. SM (01:28:20): Yeah. RS (01:28:22): A work, go work hard in a law school, hope that a big corporate law firm hires you, 80 hours a week, make partner, buy a big house and then get divorced, move on to your... get rid of your starter wife and move up the social ladder. SM (01:28:43): And have a heart attack by 50. Sam... Describe the following years in your own words. You said, this is the era the boomers have been alive, do you like the term boomer? RS (01:28:56): I do not think it has been well defined. I mean, what is a boomer? Just because you were born a certain age, at a certain time period. I think it is more what you do than the time you were born. Were the boomers, by many people's definition, they psychologically were. SM (01:29:17): Yep. Yeah. I am finding that out that- RS (01:29:20): Ginsburg was a, if you want to think, Allen Ginsburg was a boomer. SM (01:29:26): Mm-hmm. Richie Havens was born in 1941, but he said, "I am a boomer. I am more of a boomer than the people who were boomers in the last 10 years of the boomer timeline." A lot of them believe boomers are really people that were born say around (19)37, (19)38 and go to about (19)56 or (19)57. RS (01:29:47): Rachel Meadow said something, and I know I am mangling her quote about, "Being put in a category so you could be satirized easily." SM (01:29:56): Right. Well, when you look at these periods, again, it is defined, higher ed does this for a reason, the boomers of those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that is the definition. And Obama would be a boomer because he was born in (19)62, I think. (01:30:14): But I am going to give you six timeframes here just put some words to these timeframes. For 1946 to 1960, what was it like to be in America at that time? Just a few words. RS (01:30:31): Conform, and they were wearing t-shirts, white t-shirts with nothing printed on them. I think Country Joe McDonald did something like that, "We wore white t-shirts, but we did not have anything written, nothing was written them. SM (01:30:45): Yep. I remember that. RS (01:30:50): When you graduated from high school, you went to work, went to college, or joined the army. SM (01:30:56): Mm-hmm. How about that period? (19)61 to (19)70? RS (01:31:06): You know, for me, probably the low point was the assassination of John Kennedy. I knew right away nothing would ever be the same. SM (01:31:11): Mm-hmm. Where were you when he was shot? RS (01:31:17): I sitting in the classroom in seventh grade when it came over to the intercom. SM (01:31:22): And were you let out of school early? RS (01:31:25): I believe so. I believe so. That was a terrible time, and I believe the country lost a great deal of its innocence and naivete. SM (01:31:36): When you look at that whole period about (19)61 through (19)70, besides Kennedy, what comes to mind? Or, does he dominate? RS (01:31:48): Could you repeat the question? SM (01:31:50): Yeah. Between 1961 and 1970, what comes to mind besides Kennedy? Or, is that assassination the dominant theme? RS (01:31:59): Kind of, for me a good analogy would be changing from watching a black and white TV to watching a color TV. Things exploded. I mean, there was the free speech movement in Berkeley. There was Ken Kesey and the Mary Pranksters, the use of cut... expanding drugs, a certain more openness to question what had been taken for granted. SM (01:32:33): Mm-hmm. How about the period (19)71 to 1980? RS (01:32:43): Liberalism, but retrenching. Talk about legalizing marijuana by Jimmy Carter, and I do not want to put words in his mouth, that was not what he said. Possibly the decriminalization, and I should not quote him either because I do not want to, but the decriminalization of marijuana, the mainstream acceptance of some of the arts. Including music, drawings, clothes. Yet, retrenching at the same time. I will never forget when I came out to Berkeley in 1976 to visit, I went into the Good Earth health food store and the girl working behind the counter was wearing a shirt with an alligator on it. I knew things had changed. SM (01:33:42): Yeah. How about 1981 to 1990? RS (01:33:55): Yeah. Think about that one. I cannot give you something off the top of my head. That is hard. Disco? No, that was earlier. I should not say disco. SM (01:33:59): That was the (19)76 to (19)80. RS (01:34:12): Oh God, I am dating myself. SM (01:34:13): Ronald Reagan was that period. RS (01:34:16): He was. Just say no, the demonization of the (19)60s and the counterculture. SM (01:34:29): How about 1991 to 2000? RS (01:34:35): At first, the belief that we had elected for president one of us. Clinton playing saxophone on Arsenio Hall was something I never expected to see a presidential candidate do. Well, Nixon played the piano on Jack Paar, I believe. SM (01:34:55): Right. RS (01:34:55): Not the same. SM (01:35:00): Yeah. I think- RS (01:35:00): The idea that we had elected someone who would understand, to use a cliche, where we were coming from, because he and his wife were one of us. SM (01:35:15): Mm-hmm. And the period- RS (01:35:28): Art, hip. SM (01:35:29): Right. RS (01:35:29): Intelligent and presumably liberal. SM (01:35:30): Then the period 2001 to 2011? RS (01:35:35): Frightening. SM (01:35:38): Certainly 9/11 defined it. RS (01:35:40): Frightening. The rationalization of entrenching further and further government control in every aspect of people's lives, and the justification for taking away people's liberty. SM (01:36:01): This is just another thing too. When you are talking about the period, how did the Cold War, McCarthyism, the threat of the nuclear bomb, the space race, the March on Washington in (19)63, the Kennedy inaugural speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you..." And his assassination, the Cuban Missile Crisis, shape your life? Those are all major happenings. You already talked about JFK, but were those other events in some way affect your life? RS (01:36:34): Well, not directly, but it really made you feel how vulnerable you were. If the president can get shot what can happen to me? SM (01:36:46): You are right. RS (01:36:50): The impermanence of everything, if the mighty and powerful can be taken down, how about the little guy's chance? I keep going back to the movie Network, which I thought was excellent, about America not being finished. It was the end that we sit in our houses with our color TVs and we have some steel-belted radials. There was also another movie by Jules Pfeiffer, named Little Murders, with Elliot Gould. SM (01:37:27): Elliot Gould? RS (01:37:28): Who sat there living behind steel shutters in New York, sniping at people and then shooting back. Kind of like Escape from New York... let us see, a prequel to Escape from New York. SM (01:37:43): Wow. RS (01:37:43): I do not know where I am coming up with this. SM (01:37:48): Yeah, what is happened with a lot of my interviews is that I interviewed... Well, who was it? [inaudible]... Richard Flax. You know Dr. Flax? RS (01:37:59): I do not. SM (01:37:59): He helped write the free speech move... excuse me, the Tom Hayden, and he was a professor of UC Santa Barbara and I brought up things in it, and boy, he loved it yesterday or two days ago because it was bringing back these memories and he was pretty good at remembering things. And he felt real good at the end of the interview because it stretched his mind and made him remember things he had not thought about in a long time. Do you think we as a nation have an issue with healing, problem with healing? We took a group of students to Washington in 1995 to see Edmund Muskie and the students that I took down to Washington from my university were not alive in the (19)60s, but they had seen the 1968 convention, the terrible battles between police and young people, and they saw what happened inside the convention hall. They had seen movies of what was going on in the (19)60s. They knew the two people that were murdered in 1968, and they had seen some people in those videos saying that we are having a second civil war coming and all those other things. And since we had Edmund Muskie to talk to, he was the vice-presidential running mate. And so they thought he was going to respond to this question based on 1968. And the question was this, do you feel that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in our society, that during the time that the boomers have been alive, that they are going to go to their grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? That the bitterness, the vindictiveness, dislikes have continued in many ways and we see it today in our divisive nature, in our politics, and of course the backlash we see. So do you think we have a problem as a nation with healing? RS (01:40:06): I do, and I am not optimistic. Views seem to be getting more and more and more entrenched. I mean, an example is Fox News and MSNBC, I cannot recall the name of the writer of a wrote about mirror culture, how you only want to see things that reflect back what you already want to see. I think that is very true. I am guilty of it myself. I think conservative people will go to their graves saying that we ruined America and liberal people will go to their graves saying we tried to save it. SM (01:40:53): Do you think that the wall, the Vietnam Memorial, which I know you probably visited. RS (01:41:02): Actually, I have not, but I am familiar with it. SM (01:41:05): Yeah. Has that done anything, as Jan Scruggs said in his book, not only did we build the wall mainly to heal the vets, the families of those who died, and the 3 million who served, but that we tried in some way to heal the nation. Do you think the wall has done that? RS (01:41:23): I do not. I think it is a wonderful monument to people who died, in my view, unnecessarily. But as far as healing goes, I do not know. I think it is a place for people to go and grieve family or friend, but an influence beyond that, I do not think, I do not so. SM (01:41:45): Do you think, I have a question here too regarding trust. That one of the major qualities that the boomer generation possesses, and I kind of include all 70... I do not like to generalize, but I think in this one I am that all 74 million, those who were for or against the war, liberals, conservatives, or even the 85 to 90 percent who were not activists in any way and just went on with their lives, so to speak, but were subconsciously affected that this is a generation that did not trust. It did not trust because of the fact that so many of their leaders lied to them. Whether you were astute enough to see Eisenhower lie to elementary school kids in 1959 about U2, the spy plane that he said it was not, and it was. To the Gulf of Tonkin with Lyndon Johnson, to Watergate with Richard Nixon, to all the lies that came out of Vietnam in terms of numbers. And there did not seem to be any trusting in our generation toward anyone in the sense of authority, whether it be a president, a university president, a corporate leader, a rabbi, a priest, a minister, anybody in a position of leadership, we do not trust them. RS (01:43:04): I think it is a health mistrust. I think not questioning authority is unhealthy. Again, I keep going wait to the classics, the Greek classics. SM (01:43:20): Right? RS (01:43:21): People have always been punished for questioning the predominant, I do not want to use rulers, what is a better word than rulers? Governing authority. Remember a bumper sticker, "Subvert the dominant paradigm." That is very good. That is very good. SM (01:43:56): Do you remember as a young person, when you were a college student, you would see a car that had an American flag on it and you knew that the person who had the American flag was a conservative saying that, "I am a better American than you are." Basically a statement to those who were against the war. RS (01:44:15): Absolutely. I remember a friend telling me a story about he was attending the University of Iowa, going into this small town for whatever reason, meeting hostility and running into some guy who he saw also had long hair, was as if had met his brother, you knew you could trust him. You knew who someone was by their looks, I should say you knew what they believed by their looks. Now, I think there are a great deal of wolves in sheep clothing. SM (01:44:51): Yeah. I think there were a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing, but I can remember just getting off the subject, but I was picked up by my dad, we were going home from college and he pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had a white... He pulled into a gas station and there was a man who had an American flag. I did not have that long hair. I had longer hair, but not real long. RS (01:45:10): Were you a communist homosexual radical? SM (01:45:13): No, but what happened was I looked at that flag and I said to my dad, "I got to say something to that guy." My dad said, "Steve, do not start something here." Because basically I would learned that putting an American flag on your car then, not like it is now, it is different today, but putting a flag on your car then was basically saying, "I am a better American than you are." And that pissed me off. RS (01:45:39): Well, the prevalent attitude by many people was "love it or leave it." SM (01:45:42): That is right. RS (01:45:42): Instead of love it or change it. SM (01:45:42): Yes. RS (01:45:49): That is not the right way to say this. Love it and change it. SM (01:45:53): Exactly. RS (01:45:54): It was not, if you did not like it, get out. Because if you like it, help it. SM (01:46:01): What are the lessons learned from the (19)60s? And what are the lessons lost from the (19)60s? RS (01:46:10): I think one of them is to have fun. To have fun. I remember in the movie Citizen Kane, Edward Everett Horton, who played Bernstein, saying to the reporter interviewing him, "It is very easy to make a lot of money if all you want to do is make a lot of money." I want to do a lot more. Although I could certainly use the financial, cannot count it when you are dead. Although, oh, that is a stupid thing to fix. You cannot count anything after you are dead. But try hugging it when you are lonely or scared. Human... There is a word I am searching. Human values rather than material value? SM (01:47:11): Yeah, materialism. RS (01:47:15): It is necessary, but it is not sufficient. How about that? SM (01:47:25): That is great. RS (01:47:26): Accumulation of objects and wealth may be necessary, but it certainly is deficient. SM (01:47:29): What are the lessons you think we have lost from the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Or when boomers were young? RS (01:47:37): Certainly there is more cynicism, bitterness. I think what we lost is the sense that we can make a difference. As I said earlier, many people, young people, I believe give up without trying. How will they know? SM (01:48:05): I know that when you hear people like Tom Hayden and some of the other activists who have been unbelievable leaders their whole lives, they look at the positive side of today's generation as they see some of the activism that they are involved in on the computer. It is changed somewhat, but there is a lot of activism going on-on the internet and so forth, so there are some good things. It is just one of them seems to be that they are not publicized and so we do not know. RS (01:48:38): I disagree. I am very late to the technological revolution. I do not believe that someone sending you an email from Australia telling you "your friend" makes them your friend. I thought a friend with someone you could call late at night when you needed them and they would come. That is someone who wants to get on a social network and say, " I am your friend," but then if you ever actually spoke and called them and needed help, will they be there for you? SM (01:49:10): Good point. Yep. I am now to the section I want to ask you about your memorabilia after all this time. Sorry, make sure the tapes back on here again. And it seems to be working. All right. You said in your email that you have a thousand items and 700 are signed. RS (01:49:44): I have several thousand items. SM (01:49:45): Wow. Have you broken these down into different categories? What are the categories? RS (01:49:56): Books. I collect first edition books. Books, posters, handbills, leaflets, underground newspapers, underground comics, bumper stickers, records, clothes, pinback buttons, and a lot of miscellaneous stuff. SM (01:50:28): I should have told you, I just got rid of all my (19)70s clothes. RS (01:50:31): Oh. SM (01:50:33): I gave them to the Salvation Army. I had them all these years. They were in great shape too. RS (01:50:39): Do not tell me stuff like that. SM (01:50:41): Well, I figured they did not have any value. RS (01:50:43): I do not know. I have clothes, but I have no idea what the value is. SM (01:50:50): Right. Well, I still have some of them, but it is the clothes I wore. You know those shoes that were platform shoes and those kinds of things? RS (01:50:57): Absolutely. SM (01:50:59): Well, I did not get rid of those, but I do have some of the items. RS (01:51:04): Glam Rock stuff. SM (01:51:06): Oh, yeah. Now, how did you accumulate? Did you buy these or did you... And how did you get them all signed? Or did you collect them while you were in college, or has this all been something since your college days in collecting? RS (01:51:21): No, I started collecting things in college: underground newspapers, comics, posters, leaflets. Political protest leaflets I would take off a telephone pole. They looked interesting, and many of them were period pieces with artwork. I knew these things were unique to the time period, and I felt that they should be preserved. SM (01:51:50): Excellent. RS (01:51:50): Later on, in the (19)80s, I got a catalog from someone who had taken many items. And it was the first time I had seen these things categorized and broken down into logical, coherent categories. I bought a few items and it became obsessive. SM (01:52:13): It is like me, I am a bibliophile, so I have thousands of books. So, I have a lot of (19)60s books. RS (01:52:20): I have a lot myself, but I thought that it would be wonderful to meet some of the people who were involved and participated in all the activities. And I started going to book signings and political discussions and just hearing all the lecturers, authors, as well as scrounging through used bookstores, junk shops, yard sales, catalogs, Paper Collectors Magazines, record stores. That is quite a bit. SM (01:53:00): Yeah. Well, what is interesting, I have collected anything dealing with Vietnam on magazines. And I have ordered them all. And so I have just about anything linked of Vietnam. I have all the Look, Life magazines that have Vietnam. I have gotten a lot of Newsweek and Time magazines dealing with that as well. RS (01:53:23): Posters. I am sorry to interrupt. SM (01:53:25): Yeah, go ahead. RS (01:53:26): I think posters could be broken down into two different groups, really. Posters that were used for one specific event, such as a protest rally or a music concert or a literary event. The posters produced either commercially or underground dealing with politics, ecology, et cetera. One example of the first one are Fillmore or Avalon posters, meaning posters used to promote events at the Fillmore Auditorium or the Avalon ballroom. SM (01:53:57): Oh, yeah. RS (01:54:01): And posters for political events or handbills such as the Yippies passed out before the Democratic Convention. And then just generalized things like "Make Love Not War" was one classic. Just in general cultural items. SM (01:54:23): Bill Graham, somebody bought a warehouse of all his stuff. RS (01:54:28): Sure. I bought some things from Ben Friedman, he used to have a store called The Postermat at 601 Columbus in San Francisco. SM (01:54:34): Right. RS (01:54:36): Yes. SM (01:54:36): They were sitting there for years, just in the closed warehouse, is not that correct? RS (01:54:41): Yes. Well, I do not want to get off, but this is off the record, but people from the company called Park Rock bought it. This is what they paid. Oh, they bought it for a million dollars, made the first payment and then stiffed them. And they made a small fortune on this stuff. SM (01:54:57): Oh, wow. RS (01:54:57): It is more than a small one. SM (01:54:59): Wow. Yeah. Now, when you talk about how many... I broke it down here. I thought you had had books, posters, records. Do you have toys? RS (01:55:11): I have miscellaneous of things. A jigsaw puzzle with Agnew on one side and Nixon on the other. I do not know toys per se, but miscellaneous items: little figurines, clothes, just all sorts of things. SM (01:55:32): Yeah. I still have all my cowboy and Indian sets from the (19)50s. RS (01:55:39): Wow. SM (01:55:40): Yeah. And army, those metal army figures. I accumulated them all. They are all going to my... I am creating a center for the study of the boomer generation at my parents' college. RS (01:55:54): What I would like to do very, very much is get some of my stuff in display cases. SM (01:55:59): Yes. RS (01:56:00): Exhibit. I spoke with the director of special collections for the University of Virginia Library, and he is very interested, but they have a lag time for exhibits for two years. They have a large collection of their own. And he said he would run it by a committee to see if they wanted to get involved with my stuff, but I do not think they have a budget to do it. SM (01:56:25): Yeah. Do you have a website with some? You do not put your stuff out there on the pictures. RS (01:56:28): No, I do not. I am private that way. I do not want someone to see what I have. SM (01:56:28): Yeah. I think you need to keep that private. RS (01:56:35): I would be happy to show it to them, but I do not really publicize what I do, what I have. SM (01:56:40): Yeah, same here. I have a condominium here and I got two of the rooms are stacked with books and books everywhere and people cannot believe all the books I have. RS (01:56:49): Yeah. What I have is my stuff. There is a company that makes archival things called Light Impressions, archival storage boxes with pH neutral cardboard and Mylar sleeves. I have hundreds and hundreds, if not more, of my handbills and leaflets in Mylar sleeves. SM (01:57:15): Wow. Those are— RS (01:57:15): Supposedly, Mylar is chemically inert and will last for a hundred years. SM (01:57:18): Wow. Yeah, you said you have used them in a college course. What college and how did they use them? RS (01:57:27): There was a course at the college at Marin on the 19(19)60s, and I brought some to show. But I enjoy meeting some of the people who were involved or caused so much of everything to happen. Like everyone from Jerry Rubin, Paul Krassner, people involved with the Human Be-In in Golden Gate Park. Rock musicians. Of course, Ginsburg, Berliner, Getty, Michael McClure, Tim Leary, John Sinclair from the White Panther Party. Then Tom Hayden. SM (01:58:13): Do you have presidential memorabilia too from that era? RS (01:58:17): Not really. I have political posters, but I would not call it presidential memorabilia. SM (01:58:28): Yeah. RS (01:58:28): And anti-Nixon, anti- Johnson. Yeah. SM (01:58:37): I actually, this is your interview, but I collected as a kid, so I had the Eisenhower/Nixon stuff, and then I have the Nixon/Lodge stuff who ran against Kennedy and Johnson. Then I have Kennedy/Johnson, and then I have Barry Goldwater and Miller. RS (01:58:55): Well, I have a Gene McCarthy item signed by him and a George McGovern item signed by him. SM (01:59:04): Great. Yeah. You noticed the people that I have interviewed, most of them have signed their books. And then, of course, I worked at the university for 30 some years, and so everybody that came through, I had them sign their books. So I have a lot of things too. But I am curious, I listed some names here from Jerry Ruben to Ken Kesey, Alan Ginsburg, Leary, Paul Krassner, Jerry Garcia. Any of the Black Panther stuff? RS (01:59:33): Sure. SM (01:59:34): Yeah. I wonder what happened to all that stuff that was over in Oakland. Did anybody ever keep any of that stuff besides you? RS (01:59:43): I believe the Black Panthers sold their archive to Stanford University. But sure, Bobby Seale, Kathleen Cleaver, and a number of other people's signatures. SM (02:00:00): Wow. How about the free speech movement? Any materials on that? RS (02:00:03): Absolutely. Mario Savio who passed away long ago signed a few of my things. Michael Rossman, who passed away did. Yes, I do. I really have a well-rounded collection in a lot of different areas: political, social, artistic. SM (02:00:28): And then of course you had... I do not know if you had materials from the Summer of Love, which was (19)67 and— RS (02:00:35): A great deal. There was a group in the 1967 Summer of Love in The Haight-Ashbury called The Diggers, which was— SM (02:00:42): Oh, yeah. That is with Peter Coyote. RS (02:00:45): I have approximately 40 of their handbills. SM (02:00:48): Wow. RS (02:00:51): Sure. I have all five handbills the Human Be-in. SM (02:00:57): Oh my gosh. RS (02:00:57): And two printer variants. Each one has signed by about 15, 20 participants in the event. And one of the two Human Be-In posters, which is a classic. I have an original Acid Test poster from 1964, which is extremely rare, signed by Ken Kesey, and Allen Ginsberg, and Paul Krassner and others. SM (02:01:21): Wow. Yeah. How did you find that? RS (02:01:27): I got it from Kesey's son actually. I used to be friends with him in the (19)80s, (19)90s. SM (02:01:31): Oh, wow. RS (02:01:33): Zane Kesey. I was friends with him, and I actually went up to Oregon for the world premiere of a play his dad, Ken Kesey, wrote called Twister in the early (19)90s. And then when they put the play on here at the Fillmore Auditorium for two nights, I did the video camera work for one night. SM (02:01:56): Yeah. Do you have any things from Kent State too? RS (02:02:09): I have something that is absolutely unique. I got it from one of the attorneys for some of the National Guardsmen involved died, and in his estate was an actual transcript of where interrogation is, might be wrong, questioning of the National Guardsmen under oath as to what happened afterwards. It is one of a kind. SM (02:02:34): Wow. Yeah, I know recently, in the last couple years, one of those Guardsmen died that had actually spoken. Most of them have not spoken, but he was the one that had, and then he passed away. I forget his name. RS (02:02:51): I have Judge Julius Hoffman, who presided over the Chicago Seven trial in Chicago's Christmas album during that time with Christmas cards from Mayor Daley and the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, and a number of other people. SM (02:03:05): They did a record? RS (02:03:07): No. They did... Look, this is actually Judge... Let me back up. This is Judge Julius Hoffman's Christmas album. I do not mean album. I mean his own Christmas cards that were sent to him that he put in an album. SM (02:03:20): Oh my gosh. Wow. RS (02:03:25): I have quite a bit. SM (02:03:26): How would you ever find that? How do you find some of these things? RS (02:03:30): In the Paper Collectors Magazine about 20 years ago. SM (02:03:34): Wow. RS (02:03:35): Hang on for a second. Let me just grab some more water. SM (02:03:36): Yep, that is okay. RS (02:03:37): I got a lot of early SDS publications from the the early (19)60s and one called the Port Huron Statement. It was a pivotal document that came out in 1963. I do not know how much you want to hear about this. SM (02:04:16): Yeah, I just want just some of the items because it is important that this is history and this is all about history. RS (02:04:19): Sorry. Sorry, I interrupted you. Please go ahead. Go ahead. SM (02:04:21): No, I am done. Go ahead. RS (02:04:23): The Port Huron Statement was... What is the word? It had to do with student participation which is participatory democracy. A number of similar leaders from all over the country met in 1963 in Port Huron, Michigan to put together a manifesto for student participation in politics in society. I have a mimeograph draft version that Tom Hayden wrote, which I believe may be the only copy in the world. SM (02:05:03): Wow. RS (02:05:04): Signed by Tom Hayden. SM (02:05:05): Yeah, because you see he and Richard Flax were the two that wrote it. Wow. RS (02:05:08): I believe The Port Huron Statement was primarily written by Tom Hayden. SM (02:05:09): It was, but Richard Flax was a very good writer and Tom got to know him quite well, and he was involved in making some corrections and proper English, so he was there. I interviewed him on Monday. He is a retired sociology professor. RS (02:05:35): Huh. SM (02:05:36): And he has written some great books. He has written three major books on the (19)60s. He is a retired professor. RS (02:05:46): No, I have, as I said, a lot of early SDS items. I have Weather Underground items, Yippie items; hand bills mostly. Of course, Woodstock related items, including tickets and the program for Woodstock, which is very rare because it rained for three days and the programs were mostly destroyed. SM (02:06:11): You are right. You are right. RS (02:06:14): So, I have an original Woodstock program signed by some of the participants of Woodstock. SM (02:06:19): Wow. So that is really neat. Yeah, I have quite a few books that are signed by people, but it is fun, is not it, trying to get them to sign things if they are still alive, some of these people. RS (02:06:36): And some are nice and some are not, but I guess that is the way people are. SM (02:06:40): Right. RS (02:06:42): Some of them insist on dating things because when they date them it makes it less valuable than if they had just simply signed their name. But word records that are very rare dealing with politics or drug use, a whole host of things. It is hard to summarize several thousand items. I made a mistake. The Port Huron Statement, in addition to having the mimeograph, I also have a second printing. I just have the mimeograph draft statement. SM (02:07:22): I think the original was in a brown cover? RS (02:07:25): God, yeah. Yeah, you are right. Yes. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Yes. SM (02:07:31): And guess who has that? RS (02:07:34): You. SM (02:07:34): Yes. I found that in a used bookstore. RS (02:07:39): Well, I have the second printing and I have the mimeograph draft version, but I do not have a first printing. SM (02:07:48): Wow. RS (02:07:50): And then the San Francisco Oracle was the quintessential underground newspaper. Only 12 issues were put out. It was in San Francisco by Allen Cohen. And I have every issue also signed by Allen, who passed away. Fillmore and Avalon posters, as I said, and handbills. SM (02:08:19): Wow. RS (02:08:20): Several hundred pinback buttons, political and cultural, such as Make Love Not War. SM (02:08:31): The black fist for the Black Panthers? RS (02:08:33): Sure. SM (02:08:34): Yeah. Wow. RS (02:08:36): The many anti-Nixon, anti-Johnson, Gene McCarthy, George McGovern. SM (02:08:45): Wow. Excellent. RS (02:08:53): I really feel an obligation to try to preserve as much of the counterculture as possible. SM (02:09:02): Yeah. Now that you have got this collection together, what do you plan to do with it? You going to pass it on to a university for protection someday? RS (02:09:14): I really do not know. I have not decided. SM (02:09:14): Unless you got a family that cares about it. RS (02:09:16): Well, I am single. SM (02:09:22): As a person who is reached 62, (19)60s, I have had to think about where my stuff's going, and my family, none of them want this stuff. So, I am working on an arrangement with my parents' college that they will take my collection for nothing, as long as they protect it, preserve it, and they follow guidelines that I give to them. And it has to be for education, and it has to be for students and research. RS (02:09:55): Good. SM (02:09:55): Because you just cannot let it just go. And it has to go where it is going to be appreciated. And to me, it has to be used by students. And it is going to take a couple years, because this college, I could have done it to my alma mater SUNY Binghamton and I would have gotten a much bigger response and a much faster response. But I am doing it because my parents went to this small school outside Syracuse, Cazenovia College, and I want to be able to do something to improve their campus, but they have got to protect it. And it is going to take a while because they do not have the building, they do not have the money. And times are tough, but I know what I want them to do. And for items like you have, you also want to make sure that if a university ends up... you need to have a person that is going to check on them every so often, someone that you can trust that they are following through with what they said they were going to do with the materials. So, I have my niece, even though she has got... I have picked one person. She has agreed to do it. So that when all my items are there and all documented and everything, that no one professor can take items away from it and keep it for themselves. Secondly, some items have to be worn with white gloves. Thirdly, and most importantly, they cannot be taken away from the university and they cannot be taken away from the research area where they are. They are for student and faculty research. It is pure education. It is a lot easier said than done right now because that place is almost 400 miles from me. I am not going to die tomorrow, I hope, but I do know that I have it now that they are going to get them. RS (02:11:57): It is a good plan. I have not taken it that far yet. SM (02:12:00): Yeah, but you need to know that your items are valuable. And you know something? Rick, I think sometimes even beyond the person who collects, there is a reason why you are doing it that you may not even realize it while. You are doing it because you like it and you personally care about these things. RS (02:12:22): Well, also because I feel I have, for whatever reason, an obligation to preserve as much as possible of a time period I do not think it is ever going to happen again. SM (02:12:32): I agree. RS (02:12:35): This was a, I cannot say unique because every time period is unique, but a groundbreaking explosion of human potential. SM (02:12:49): Yeah. I think some of the things you have got are unique, because they have never existed before and will never exist again. RS (02:12:58): Well, showing how society had changed so much. I feel like a cultural historian. SM (02:13:06): And I know Paul, when he gave the names, it has taken me a while to contact the names. I think I had your name six months ago from Paul. But I have contacted everyone and the only person in the list that he gave me is Stewart Brand was the only one that did not want to do an interview. He is the only one. RS (02:13:24): Funny you mentioned him. About 20 years ago, I asked for some autographs on things. Excuse me, I have to eat something. I feel my blood sugar dropping down to zero. I was living in Mill Valley. Stewart Brand had a place in Sausalito where he did the Whole Earth catalog. SM (02:13:46): Yes. RS (02:13:48): I called and said, "I collected some things. They are not for resale. This is just for me. Would you sign all my stuff?" He said, "No autographs!" Just like that. "No, autographs!" SM (02:14:01): Yeah. Well, he must be a friend of Paul's. But he just simply said, "I have no interest at this time." But he also is a multi-millionaire now, and so he has got— RS (02:14:15): I think after he went to MIT and became a technocrat he kind of lost his roots. SM (02:14:20): Yeah. He is the only one. And then the other one is Ina May Gaskin. I interviewed Steven, but Ina May has not responded. So she is the only other one. And it took me a while to get Carolyn Garcia, but I finally got Carolyn. RS (02:14:39): She is sweet. SM (02:14:40): Oh, she is really nice. I interviewed her on the phone and when I was out there I took her picture just outside Golden Gate Park. She is a very nice person. By the way, she does not like that new book on Ken Kesey either. RS (02:14:51): Which one? SM (02:14:52): It is a brand-new book out. I bought it right over there by the Golden Gate Park, the Haight Street... RS (02:15:06): The Booksmith. SM (02:15:06): Yeah. And it was in there and it was brand new. And I mentioned to Carolyn when I was... She just drove over so I could take her picture at the entrance to the park to be at the top of her interview. And she says, "He was not supposed to print that book. There were certain things that I objected to and that I did not like." So, there is some mistruths in that book. And I do not know anything about it, but I think there is going to be some issues going on down the road on that. My last question is this, do you have any more to say on the memorabilia? RS (02:15:42): It is an incredible window into a wonderful time period in American history. Give me a second. SM (02:15:54): Yep. RS (02:15:54): Can I say something that if you want to put this in somewhere you can? SM (02:15:58): Okay. RS (02:16:00): I went to about 160 Grateful Dead concerts. SM (02:16:03): Wow. RS (02:16:04): Some of the best times in my life. SM (02:16:06): I only went to one. RS (02:16:08): Wonderful, wonderful. My first one was in Madison, actually, College. And at that time things were so loose that, looking appropriate, I just simply walked up some stairs up to the stage and spent the whole concert leaning on the bass player's, Phil Lesh's, amp. SM (02:16:28): Oh my God. RS (02:16:28): That is how things were in 1970. (19)71. Actually, this is (19)71 now. SM (02:16:28): Right? RS (02:16:36): Yeah. I have about 300 Grateful Dead tapes of concerts. One of them, I was friends with a friend of one of the guys, and at the 1986 New Year's show, they got me backstage. Not only backstage, but actually into the band room after the show where all the guys were. There were so many tanks of nitrous oxide, it looked like a hospital. SM (02:16:59): Oh my gosh. RS (02:17:01): And I had some of the best times in my life at those shows. I think Joseph Campbell called them a Dionysian Celebration of Life. I cannot improve on that. SM (02:17:16): Yeah. Jerry Garcia was a hell of a talent. And what a great guitar player. And I never met him. I just mentioned to Carolyn, just from what I saw, and I see him on YouTube a lot, he seemed to be a very gentle person. RS (02:17:29): He was. SM (02:17:29): Even with interviews with him and Ken Kesey, they looked like they were brothers. They were having a good time together. There was a mutual respect. And he seemed to be a very humble person, because he came from tough times. RS (02:17:48): Well, he said, I think after being in the Grateful Dead for 20 years, he was just starting to learn how to play a guitar. SM (02:17:53): My God. Huh. RS (02:17:57): I used to see him driving his BMW around Mill Valley. He was friends, well not only friends, for many years with David Grisman, who was in the New Riders of the Purple Sage, and a phenomenal mandolin player who lived nearby, a few minutes away from where I lived. I would see him driving his black BMW. SM (02:18:14): Well, is not it amazing that the San Francisco Bay area has all this talent? I am amazed. And of course when I lived... I lived out there from (19)76 to (19)83, Huey Lewis and the News came up and the Tower of Power were there and Boz Scaggs over in Marin County. And there were a lot of different groups. I know John Handy and his saxophone playing down at the Embarcadero Center. RS (02:18:40): There it’s s one event that stood out in my mind, and I do not know where you can put this in the interview if you choose to, but after I saw the Jefferson Airplane do a concert at the University of Wisconsin Field House two weeks after Kent State, there were about 15,000 people in the audience, and the conclusion, the last song they played was called Volunteers. It was off the Volunteers album. And one of the lines was, "Up against the wall, Motherfucker." And 15,000 people put their fists in the air. SM (02:19:19): Wow. RS (02:19:20): Something I will never forget. SM (02:19:22): Yeah, you mentioned at Wisconsin that you saw the Grateful Dead and you saw— RS (02:19:25): Janice. And Hendrix. SM (02:19:25): You saw all these people there? RS (02:19:32): I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix. It was after Woodstock, but before the movie came out. And I remember during the concert, somebody said, "What can we get you, Jimi?" And he said, "A joint." They started throwing joints at him. Joints are bouncing off his chest, off his guitar. SM (02:19:51): Oh my gosh. RS (02:19:54): 20 or 30 of them must have hit him. Joints. And then the last thing he did was appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner. RS (02:20:03): Appeared in the Woodstock movie doing the Star-Spangled Banner. SM (02:20:07): Oh yeah. RS (02:20:07): Which was before the movie came out. And then I had never seen In The Purple Haze. SM (02:20:09): Oh my God. RS (02:20:11): Phenomenal. SM (02:20:14): And you say you saw Janice there too? RS (02:20:18): Sure. (19)69, going to the concert November, wearing a coat and tie. SM (02:20:28): Unbelievable. RS (02:20:28): By the Kent state time I had changed. Can I tell you something that must be off the rec? My roommates and I used to buy hash from and Glenn Silber who did the War at Home movie. SM (02:20:36): Oh my gosh. RS (02:20:38): I have been around my friend. SM (02:20:40): Yeah. Well when Janice Joplin was, that was the Chief Turtles album, right around that time. I have a story, I have interviewed so many people, but the hippies were upset with her because of the fact that the hippies were into drugs, not alcohol. RS (02:21:00): She was into Southern Comfort. SM (02:21:01): Yeah, she was into Southern Comfort, and a lot of the hippies did not get along with her. She broke a rule. Hippies do not drink alcohol. RS (02:21:10): Maybe beer, but that was it. SM (02:21:12): Yeah, but they did not like the fact that she was doing that. RS (02:21:15): Mind-expanding. SM (02:21:17): Yeah. Any other rock groups or single performers that you saw in Wisconsin? RS (02:21:25): Country Joe to Jefferson Airplane to the Grateful Dead. So many of the people from that time. I mean, it would be hard to give, but all the usual suspects. SM (02:21:43): You know what is interesting, I have one last question here, but I will mention this just for general, it will not be in the interview, but when I was in college, I went to SUNY Binghamton and we had winter break and we had spring break and we had- RS (02:21:54): Wild place. SM (02:21:56): Yeah. And we had the Paul Butterfield Blues Band all the time performing at the campus center Friday. But we had Judy Collins, we had Arlo Guthrie, we had Odetta, Oscar Peterson, Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington. And then we had Iron Butterfly and the Turtles and the Mountain. RS (02:22:22): Sure. SM (02:22:25): And the Chambers Brothers. We had all these groups. Love and Spoonful, and even The Birds and Anthony Imperials. I will just never forget all these groups and these concerts when I was a college student. There is no other time. RS (02:22:45): There is no other. I can give you a quote that I remember. If you want to use, so be it. Remember how they used to say drugs are for people who cannot handle reality? Our saying was reality was for people who cannot handle drugs. SM (02:23:00): That is a great quote. I will use that. RS (02:23:07): I did not make it up. SM (02:23:08): And do not forget, you are going to see this transcript, so you can scribble some of this stuff out. My last question is this, and I have asked this to everybody. When the best history books are written about any period, it is usually 50 years afterwards. The best World War II books were coming out in the early, well, about 2000, 2001. And so some of the best World War II books are coming out now. What do you think historians and sociologists and commentators will say about the (19)60s or the Boomer generation? I think I am going to say this, Boomer generation, this generation that was born after World War II, and was very young in the (19)60s and the seventies and early eighties. What do you think they will say? What will be the lasting legacy? And I say this knowing that the Boomers are now reaching older age, they still got 15 to 20 years left so they could change old age, but just your thoughts. What do you think they are going to say? Especially after the last Boomer may have passed on? RS (02:24:10): Well, that was the flowering of you and potential. So, we did not take anything at face value. So, we questioned authority, and that we can make a difference, and we did. SM (02:24:27): That is great. Is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? RS (02:24:37): About the specific items in my collection, which I do not have to tell you about, but I really thought that is half of what you would do would be about what we had discussed, and half what would be about collecting counterculture member review. But I understand this is a sociology book and not for collectors. SM (02:24:53): Yeah. Well, you can tell me more about your collection because I did not know what items you had except some general items. I can ask specific questions like the items you have linked to Ken Kesey or any of the beats. RS (02:25:09): I mean, I have highlight, I have to tell you, in all honesty, I am pretty punchy. And not because of you, it is because I thought we would go for an hour and it is two and a half. SM (02:25:20): I think that is enough. RS (02:25:21): So I thought you said an hour and a half. But no, I am not complaining at all, I am just saying I am starting to wander a little. My mind is not quite as disciplined as when we started. But I think that we did make a difference. So I know we did. And then from now on, no one will take unquestioned the statement from the government to the mainstream media. That you need to think for yourself, draw your own conclusions, do not accept anything at face value without running it through your own mind and deciding whether it makes sense or not. And the motivations for what was said by whoever was saying and why? What are they looking for you to do? Is it in their self-interest or is it in yours? SM (02:26:06): Yeah. Using a Paul Krassner line, we just hit the midway point. Yeah, I think Paul would laugh at that. Tell you, fantastic. RS (02:26:20): Pleasure speaking to you. SM (02:26:23): Yeah, no, Rick, I wish I would come out when I was out to San Francisco. I had not been out there in 10 years. RS (02:26:27): You are always welcome to- SM (02:26:29): And I might go out again next year and I want to meet Paul and Nancy. I will even drive down if I have to down south just to see him. I want to take their pictures and stuff like that. There is a few other people in LA. But I regret that I had not called you before I went to San Francisco because I met seven people to take their pictures. I met Carolyn Garcia, took her picture. Peter Richardson, who wrote the book on Ramparts Magazine, Jim Quay, former head of the Arts council who lives in the Bay Area, and- RS (02:27:03): Wait, girl was sweet. SM (02:27:05): Huh? RS (02:27:06): Carolyn Cassidy was known during the pranks, it still is, its mountain girl. SM (02:27:12): Yes-yes. And then I- RS (02:27:14): Very sweet person. Lived in Ballenas for many years, which was another counter cultural, it is on the Pacific Ocean. Incredibly beautiful, very isolated. You have to drive over Mountain [inaudible] here in Marin County to get there. SM (02:27:31): I think Charles- RS (02:27:32): Go ahead. SM (02:27:33): I think Charles wrote a book, something to do with Ballenas Bay too. RS (02:27:38): Probably. It is very beautiful, wildlife and all that, but a lot of the, she lived right near there for a long time. SM (02:27:49): Wow. RS (02:27:55): I really do feel an obligation to preserve as much of this time period as I can. SM (02:27:57): I think it is a great thing that you are doing. RS (02:28:00): Thank you, Stephen. SM (02:28:01): I admire you for doing it and we need more people like you because in the end I think subconsciously you are preserving it, but you are preserving it for others. It is that (19)60s mentality. I know that I have been collecting all my books and all this stuff and I am collecting all these interviews for a reason because I want young people, students, college students and general public, to get a better understanding of the times we lived in and to not have the new Gingrich's of the world and the people condemning an entire era because they do not like the politics or the personalities of the people or the long here. You got to understand the times. RS (02:28:45): Cultural warfare, they have a vested interest in the status quo. Just as the seed money, 90 percent of the seed money in the eighties for the partnership with Drug-Free America. You know where that came from? Tobacco companies and the alcohol companies. SM (02:29:01): Yep. You are right. RS (02:29:04): I wonder why because they did not want any other recreational interest horning in on their market. SM (02:29:11): Charles Wright is coming, he is teaching a course at Yale this spring. I found out so I am going to contact the Yale law and hopefully I can get an interview with him. But boy, you cannot even reach him in the Bay Area. He does not even have a website. RS (02:29:21): I thought he was in Berkeley. SM (02:29:21): Yeah. RS (02:29:28): Yeah, I think he is in Berkeley. SM (02:29:28): Well, if you ever find out a website for him or an email, let me know because I would like to try to interview him because he did write the Greening of the Merit. RS (02:29:36): I can tell you where he did the reading in Berkeley was six months ago at the bookstore. SM (02:29:40): Okay. RS (02:29:42): It is called Books Incorporated. Fourth Street of Berkeley. SM (02:29:48): Fourth Street. Okay, I could give him a call. RS (02:29:52): That is where he did his last reading. SM (02:29:53): Okay. RS (02:29:55): I know you are calling me to write a book and I know this is off the wall, not off the wall, but it is unrelated. I want to get my stuff in display cases somewhere where people can see it, whether it is a library, university, if you could keep me in mind, I am not looking to make any money, that would be nice, but nobody has money to pay for that kind of stuff. SM (02:30:15): Well, the connections that I have are only with three. I have left where I used to work, so I am done with them. I have worked there 22 years. But my alma maters, I am Ohio State, Binghamton University, and then Cazenovia, so I do have links with all of them. RS (02:30:34): You happen to see an opportunity where I could get my stuff in display cases or on a wall somewhere for an exhibit, I would be very- SM (02:30:42): I will, yep. RS (02:30:44): Something needs to be seen instead of being in archival boxes in my closet, Stephen. SM (02:30:49): Yep. Let me talk to a few people. There might even be a chance that, I am not sure, maybe at Binghamton and Seattle, Ohio State, I was a grad student there. All of my professors are gone, but I do believe there is a professor in the history department there who is a (19)60s guy, and I mean he is younger than a Boomer. Well, he is a young Boomer, but he is not, he was not old enough to be around when all this other stuff was happening. So, there is a good person there at Ohio State, but Binghamton's still the school it was when I was there, back in- RS (02:31:30): Let me think. I can tell you one final anecdote before you get off the bus. But that is another quote I should have given you. You are on the bus or you are off the bus. SM (02:31:41): Yes. Very good. RS (02:31:44): It is true. SM (02:31:44): Yeah. Definitely true. RS (02:31:46): You are off the bus. SM (02:31:48): Well, do you talk to Paul at all? RS (02:31:52): You send the emails constantly. I do not talk that much but we said we are in constant contact. SM (02:31:58): Good. Yeah. I just sent him a response to his Facebook message about, I thought it was the [inaudible] thing. Tell him I said hi. Tell him and Nancy I said hi. RS (02:32:09): He said he is getting off Facebook because there is just 5,000 friends he is never met. SM (02:32:26): I think what he is going to do, he is staying on Facebook, but he is going to cut the number down. I think that is what it is. RS (02:32:26): Well Saturday he told me he is getting off it, but I do not know. He could change his mind, but I am so happy to speak with you. It is been a pleasure. SM (02:32:36): It has been a pleasure here too. RS (02:32:37): Wish you a great deal of luck with your book, you are doing such a good thing. SM (02:32:41): Well, thank you very much. People like you and Paul and all the people that I have interviewed, I love that year that I grew up in, I obviously you do too. I feel fortunate that I was alive. RS (02:32:55): Well, I never left. SM (02:32:56): That is good. RS (02:32:58): Well, I will let you on the one final thing. Kesey came to the San Francisco area for a book tour. They drove the bus. This was not the original bus, but a new version of the bus from Oregon here. Outside the books in store at Hay Street, I went in, it was Kesey and a few other people, smoked a joint on the bus with Kesey. How about this? Oh, and then he tested a bottle of wine and he says before he drank, "it has lithium in it." Oh no. Hey, it could have been [inaudible 02:33:35]. Anyway, I am not going to regal you with stories, but I have been around as they say, and I have paid my dues and I have counter cultural Street cred. SM (02:33:49): Great. RS (02:33:50): Thanks Steve. SM (02:33:50): Thanks, you have a great day. Happy holidays to you. RS (02:33:54): Take care, Steve. SM (02:33:54): You bet, bye. RS (02:33:55): Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 3 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rick Synchef Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Synchef, Rick ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Counterculture--United States--20th century; Historians; Synchef, Rick--Interviews Description An account of the resource Rick Synchef is a counterculture collector and historian. He began collecting political paper and ephemera when he was an undergraduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison during the 1960s and 70s. Synchef consistently meets writers and obtains autographs for his large collection of books related to the 1960s. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.175c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 153:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a9f7c48eebed926d0aefd8ef8d6ad97e.jpg 9f6aaa00641f2286df920bb1b7407e43 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c837a6a1c48109543f09e069a35145c0.mp3 84d1f87db34c4262fe02a965ed786822 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marilyn Blatt Young Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:58 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Marilyn Young (1937-2017) was a leftist, feminist, anti-war historian, and professor of history at New York University. She was a founding member of the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She received her Bahelor's degree form Vassar College and got her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Young's Ph.D. dissertation became her first book. \n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Marilyn Young (1937-2017) was a leftist, feminist, anti-war historian, and professor of history at New York University. She was a founding member of the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She received her Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and got her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Young's Ph.D. dissertation became her first book. <br /></span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Jane Fonda; John Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Kent State; Jackson State."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Jane Fonda; John Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Kent State; Jackson State.</span> Subject LCSH Peace movements; Feminists; College teachers; New York University; Historians; Young, Marilyn Blatt--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Marilyn Young Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Young, Marilyn Blatt ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Peace movements; Feminists; College teachers; New York University; Historians; Young, Marilyn Blatt--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Marilyn Young (1937-2017) was a leftist, feminist, anti-war historian, and professor of history at New York University. She was a founding member of the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She received her Bachelor's degree from Vassar College and got her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Young's Ph.D. dissertation became her first book. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.173a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.173b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Requires A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence. 62:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8178f30327f1bee3bb3893797385f2ac.jpg a009d01f6fc7e9733fd170d8769a31bb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5f50109da7138cc1a71e499f1373e063.mp3 7378990c05340a0e3cafdea541cd0e43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Zuckerman Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 150:21 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 3 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Michael Zuckerman is a historian, scholar and author. He is a Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Zuckerman He taught courses in popular culture, national character, human nature, and religion. He recevied his Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and his Ph.D. at Harvard University in American Studies."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Michael Zuckerman is a historian, scholar, and author. He is a Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Zuckerman taught courses in popular culture, national character, human nature, and religion. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and his Ph.D. at Harvard University in American Studies.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Nineteen sixties; Counterculture; Baby boom generation; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; anti-war movement; Black Panther Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Nineteen sixties; Counterculture; Baby boom generation; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; anti-war movement; Black Panther Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.</span> Subject LCSH Historians; College teachers; Authors, American--20th century; University of Pennsylvania; Popular culture; Zuckerman, Michael--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Michael Zuckerman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Zuckerman, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Historians; College teachers; Authors, American--20th century; University of Pennsylvania; Popular culture; Zuckerman, Michael--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Michael Zuckerman is a historian, scholar, and author. He is a Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Zuckerman taught courses in popular culture, national character, human nature, and religion. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and his Ph.D. at Harvard University in American Studies. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.172a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.172b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.172c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 150:21 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/15057a3947002ec61179f98c1839a49e.jpg 4a7dd871597a272e2ba035d9eadb8726 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cae473610bb89fc980edc36b3c7e9b27.mp3 11ce45edaad7b8df76413e9d91e538cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff White Date of Interview 1997-07-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 83:54 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Vietnam War rallies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; Peter Max poster; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Vietnam War rallies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; Peter Max poster; Activism.</span> Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; White, Jeff--Interviews Biographical Text Jeff White graduated from Villanova University in 1968. He joined the U.S.Army in 1969 as a Pioneer Combat Engineer. He served in Vietnam as a clerk from 1969 to 1970. Since then, White has been actively volunteering in veteran's causes including serving as past president of the Delaware County, PA Chapter 67 of Vietnam Veterans of America and serving as a delegate to the Pennsylvania State Council and Vietnam Veterans of America National Conventions. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jeff White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource White, Jeff ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; White, Jeff--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.171a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.171b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 83:54 Description An account of the resource Jeff White graduated from Villanova University in 1968. He joined the U.S.Army in 1969 as a Pioneer Combat Engineer. He served in Vietnam as a clerk from 1969 to 1970. Since then, White has been actively volunteering in veteran's causes including serving as past president of the Delaware County, PA Chapter 67 of Vietnam Veterans of America and serving as a delegate to the Pennsylvania State Council and Vietnam Veterans of America National Conventions. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3e73f47f731f8b10ed18115ab9103629.jpg fc7b95e159c814a0cbf2f1cd8fbd1ba1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c1398cd6b96e5c333e0aca3ad3ec64be.mp3 01e191ed824b14b49955ef664dc4f766 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Curt Weldon Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 72:42 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Curt Weldon is a politician who served as a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives. He was vice-chair of the Armed Services Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee, as well as the co-chair of the Duma-Congress Study Group. Weldon received his Bachelor's degree in Russian Studies from the West Chester University of Pennsylvania. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Kent State; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam Memorial; Civil Rights Movement; Lynden Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Watergate."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Kent State; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam Memorial; Civil Rights Movement; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Richard Nixon; Watergate.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Weldon, Curt--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Curtis Weldon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weldon, Curt ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Weldon, Curt--Interviews Description An account of the resource Curt Weldon is a politician who served as a Republican member of the United States House of Representatives. He was vice-chair of the Armed Services Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee, as well as the co-chair of the Duma-Congress Study Group. Weldon received his Bachelor's degree in Russian Studies from the West Chester University of Pennsylvania. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.170a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.170b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 72:42 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0dd7fc6f1bf300a2b72e3ff4be51cb7.jpg 613b3ab5854753457ff694bdef471c87 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a57aa88505cf9eefbb19549e6c6e9f19.mp3 4a756cd38dbe31fc053f9d1c4d42c5f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Thompson, 1952-2016 Date of Interview 2010-03-08 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 115:58 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society.</span> Subject LCSH Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Thompson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University, where he studied journalism. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 115:58 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b56409015714911749ba120e2aa2d232.jpg fe5ff929932a844cea43a533a7fcec86 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76af0b02baee1160100cd7f3946f2877.mp3 956b3c45e55e7aece41328059426a1c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Thom Date of Interview 2011-06-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 120:26 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of MS. MAGAZINE entitled INSIDE MS.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night.</span> Subject LCSH Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mary Thom Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 27 June 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. All right, we are going to get going here. MT (00:00:10): Okay. SM (00:00:13): And I will be checking these. It is probably be better to have these here. MT (00:00:18): [inaudible] whatever you want. SM (00:00:22): Yeah, because your voice just [inaudible] just speak up and I will continue to borrow your pen here. Yeah, first question I like to ask everyone is what were your personal growing up years like huh? Who were the people that inspired you? Who were your role models? How did you become who you are of the people? Because especially on women's issues and so forth, and a writer. Where did Mary Tom come from? MT (00:00:50): Literally, I was born in Cleveland and grew up in Akron, Ohio. And my family was basically Ohio conservative, which at that point in the (19)50s was not social conservatism as much as tapped economic, that kind of thing. So it is interesting that both my sister and I turned out to have completely different politics than our parents, but I cannot think politics were a big thing in the family. It was around, and certain social welfare was an issue. And my father, especially, I think, was a very kind of open guy and had friends from all kinds of different parts of society. And that was influential. After grade school, we went to a private day school, and I had teachers there that were very influential, and especially a history teacher, Mrs. Shepherd, who was extraordinary. I think she influenced me to become... I studied history as an undergraduate and also a Columbia and graduate school, so that was her influence. But I did not really realize that I talked differently from many of my classmates until the years that I was studying with her, which was sort of my junior and senior year of high school. And one of the things she did is she brought the film on HUAC, what was it? SM (00:02:57): Oh, house on air. MT (00:02:57): Yeah, but what was the film called? I cannot remember. It was a very famous film where they sort of exposed what HUAC was doing in terms of... And half the class sort of was horrified because it made them think that we were being invaded by Russians, and the other half the class was horrified at HUAC. So it was this sort of balancing thing. So I do not even think I had realized until then that there was this sort of bedrock conservative and a communist. SM (00:03:37): Was that (19)50s or late (19)50s? MT (00:03:39): Yeah, I mean, I graduated high school in (19)62, so that must have been (19)60, (19)61, (19)62. And then another in incident that happened is, because this is very sort of Lily White Ohio community is a black girl, came to one of the picnics where we recruit new students. And some of my people who I thought of as my best friends were horrified that there would be a black girl, which I just could not understand. I mean, I had never been brought up that way at all. So it was sort of an interesting... And then the other thing that was happening is that we were following the anti-war movement, there were marches against, I guess it was not war so much as anti-nuke because it was Skunk in (19)90 and that sort of thing. And there were marches in Cleveland, and I knew people that had been doing that. And also one of the biggest influences, I think, was that there was a Shakespeare festival every summer in and around Cleveland and Akron. And the guy who was head of the McMillan Theater in Princeton brought this festival. And other friends of mine hung out there. And we did tasks, we sold tickets. Some worked on the lighting for maybe three years in succession. And at the same time, I went to summer school with some of the kids that were... At that time, going to summer school the first time that I knowingly had friends who were brought up in Democratic family and families that were part of the Democratic Party. So that was sort of very opening my mind to things. And then I was also involved in folk music, so I read, Sing Out. Oh, yeah. And my mother was horrified because she said, "we are going to get on a list" which I thought was stupid, but probably was not. So there are all these sort of conflicting things. SM (00:06:22): You went off to Columbia? MT (00:06:23): No, I went to Bryn Mawr undergraduate. SM (00:06:25): You went Bryn Mawr, and then what did you do in graduate school? MT (00:06:29): I went to Columbia in European history. SM (00:06:31): What was it like? What were the college environments? I mean, both schools at the time that you were there? MT (00:06:38): Okay, Bryn Mawr was sort of- SM (00:06:41): You can keep going. I shall keep checking. MT (00:06:48): No, that is okay. Bryn Mawr was on the verge of becoming radicalized when I was there. I graduated in (19)66. Kathy Dedan was a friend of mine, I mean she was a year ahead of me. She was more of a mentor, I suppose, than a friend. And she had brought a very influential event to campus, which I think it is called the Second American Revolution, where a bunch of kids from the south, from Tulu and different schools and people in the Civil Rights movement came to campus. And I cannot remember if it was my freshman or sophomore year. SM (00:07:27): That is pretty big, because- MT (00:07:31): It was enormous, exactly. So I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And in fact, with my friend Jenny Kerr, who's who was from Indiana, we started something called the Social Action Committee at Bryn Mawr. And I think it was sort of more or less under the auspices of Kathy and some of her friends who I believe sort of loved the idea of these Middle Western kids as opposed to people from radical families organizing. So that was an organ for... We raised money for Snick to send down. We did something called Fast for Freedom, where we convinced the administration to take the money from a fast and let us get it to give it to activist, which did not raise much money, but it was a vehicle to... And we worked on students’ rights issues, which were really feminist issues because of Bryn Mawr. I mean things like that we were not allowed to stay out late and things like that. I mean, we altered some of those rules, those paternalistic rules. And then the other thing we did, which I found a little problematic, but was probably harmless, is that we organized the Maids and Porters, Bryn Mawr was like a plantation at that point, although very- SM (00:09:17): (19)62, (196)3, (196)4 and (196)6? MT (00:09:28): Young, mostly black people took care of being maid some porters. And they lived in these small rooms, and basically, their grievances were that they could not have any kind of normal life because they could not have men in your rooms and things like that. So that was interesting. I mean, what we did is talk to a lot of my new young women in this situation and got them excited about making demands. The reason it was problematic for me is that this was sort of the junior and senior year. And then I realized I was going off, and then here, I had sort of stirred up this- SM (00:10:19): Can of worms and... MT (00:10:22): So what we did, I mean, I think we acted responsibly. We got involved some labor people from Philadelphia who came in and were counseling to these people. So I think it was fine, but I realized at that point that I was mobilizing and doing- SM (00:10:46): See those kinds of things were not really happening in the (19)50s on just about any campus. I think there was sensitivity on campuses toward what was going on in the South New York, students were cognizant, but even the African American students in the South, the lunch counters was like (19)60, (19)61 in that particular time frame. So you are in the kind of what I call the forerunners of this feeling, correct me if I am wrong, that you view that your voice really did count and that you wanted to be change agents for the betterment of society. MT (00:11:21): Absolutely and- SM (00:11:22): I mean of a development of self-esteem, that you were somebody, even when you were a college student, that your voice needed to be heard. MT (00:11:31): Oh, yeah. I mean, think that is absolutely true, and I think Bryn Mawr was a place to encourage that, even when we were being nettling up to- SM (00:11:42): Off to Columbia next, and of course, we all know what happened 60 years- MT (00:11:45): First, let me just say, the other thing I did is I went down to... Bryn Mawr would not allow exchanges because they were so snotty, they did not want the students to go off any place else. But we did arrange three week exchange over spring break. So I went down to Tulu, and this was in (19)64 maybe. I am trying to remember, maybe 65. And that was very influential as a group of us from Haverford and from Bryn Mawr. We were also involved in antiwar movement and things like that. And I had also been involved in Philadelphia. And for the summer when the Shona and Channey and Goodman were killed, I was in New York working with Core. So I had become quite involved at that point. But the trip to Tougaloo was particularly amazing because we did not do much. I mean, we just sort of hung out with the kids. But you drove around Jackson in an integrated car, especially with license plates from a northern state. And there was a tank in the town, basically. I mean, it was a police vehicle that was armored. And nothing happened, but you had had the sense of what had happened and could happen. SM (00:13:19): How many were in your group that went south and you were there for six weeks? MT (00:13:22): Weeks? No, no, not six weeks, less than that. Okay, two or three. Yes, I said they were not willing to let us off for that long. I guess there might have been 12. SM (00:13:36): How did you get there? Just by car? MT (00:13:39): Yeah, it was just organized it fairly informally. And we had made contact with these two little kids from the thing that Kathy had organized years before. And it kept up some of the contacts. SM (00:13:54): Did the kids and the people there tell you what it was like to live in this? MT (00:14:00): Oh, yeah, they did. I know from my friend John Edgar, who was at Miz later with me, she was at Millsaps at the time, which is a white college in Jackson. And she did things like organized to get the Tulu kids into the Millsaps Library. And the tool they used was that Millsaps had the federal deposit branch of whatever, the library, the books. And so that they argued that they had to let the Tougaloo kids come into the library and use it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on and Tougaloo was at the heart of it, various radical... I cannot remember their names now, but professors, yeah, were there. So it was a great place to learn about what- SM (00:14:58): Did you fear for your life when you were there? MT (00:15:00): No, but I just realized, I mean, you had a heightened sensibility. I mean, you sort of feared for your life. I mean, you sort of knew what had happened to people. I mean, we were in the middle of Jackson. We were not out on some country roads, but certainly the kids told us, if you were driving around, be careful. No, it is amazing. SM (00:15:28): Especially when the Shona, Cheney and Goodman was killed. And I talked to a couple people that were actually being trained and they were heading down after and there was a fear, but they still wanted to do it because- MT (00:15:44): But mostly what I... I mean, absolutely. But mostly what I remember about that was hanging out with the two little kids and drinking deer and discussing music. I mean... SM (00:15:56): But you were expanding your horizons. You have seen the world as it really was not the way mom and dad may have. MT (00:16:05): That is right, much to my parents feared dismay, although they always were supportive of both my sister and me. SM (00:16:17): The second question I have is, in your own words, what was it like being a woman in the (19)50s? MT (00:16:29): In the (19)50s? SM (00:16:30): Well, I would, saying a high school, a female going to high school from (19)58 to (19)62, to be in college from (19)62 to (19)66. Things started changing in the late (19)60s. But what was it like being women in the (19)50s and (19)60s? Any gains? I have a lot of notes here. I have read- MT (00:16:54): No-no, that is right. SM (00:16:57): [inaudible] The era of was this was a stay at home. This was a number when most women were staying. MT (00:17:02): Certainly my mother was of that, and she stayed at home. She was very happy to be staying at home. She did a lot of volunteer work because that would advance her family. I mean well, both because she was a good volunteer but I mean, that was part of what her job was, was to represent us to the community. So that was sort of a given but on the other hand, there I was at an all-girl school. Well, we had a couple boys in our class through middle school, but through high school. And that made a big difference in terms of what we thought of ourselves intellectually. I mean, we never had that kind of intimidation that other kids had. SM (00:17:51): Did you go to an all-girls high school too? Okay. MT (00:17:54): Yeah. SM (00:17:54): So you come from a little different [inaudible] MT (00:17:56): Yeah. I went to all girls high school. We certainly had contact with the local boys schools and went to proms. And that was always sort of not something that I felt comfortable. I mean, I felt comfortable enough, but it was not something that... But then it did not matter that much because my life was in this other kind of situation. So I had boyfriends, but they were not like be all of my existence. And then I went Bryn Mawr. And that was kind of a great atmosphere because we had our own institution. But I took classes at Haverford, and certainly the organizing had to do with kids from Haverford. One of my boyfriends was actually... I do not know if I want you to use this, but I will tell you anyway, was Ben Davis and his father was part of the Center for Constitutional Rights, one of the founders. SM (00:19:12): Oh? MT (00:19:17): And that is how I got to know Kathy Bine. They were Steve Smith, which was her boyfriend, and Ben were roommates. SM (00:19:25): Now, Kathy is, correct me, I am wrong. Did she die in the- MT (00:19:30): No, she went to prison. SM (00:19:32): Yeah, she was in prison. MT (00:19:32): And she is out. Now, she is out. She has been out for about 10 years, I think. But she had a kid that then the Jennifer... It was a [inaudible] what is her name? Brought up her son. SM (00:19:50): I think she used to have her boyfriend was the one that married Bernadine Dorn. MT (00:19:55): Not her boyfriend, but they were friends. But Bernadine Dorn and-and that guy whose name escaped me was brought up her kid. SM (00:20:03): Oh, wow. MT (00:20:04): Kathy's child. SM (00:20:05): Huh. MT (00:20:07): But I did not have anything much to do with her except I heard about them when I was at Columbia. I had friends who were in living in.... They had just been living in Chicago and had been in Chicago during the Democratic doing. And Kathy and some other people had been sort of camping out of their... SM (00:20:34): I think there is a book out on them, on that family that- MT (00:20:38): Yeah, Susan Brody wrote a book on them, and Susan was at Bryn Mawr a few years before me. But anyway, I mean that Kathy had obviously gone through these sort of transforming things, partly in Cleveland and then partly later. And I knew kind of what it was, because I left Columbia in (19)68 during the uprising. And at that point, I had a boyfriend and I came home every evening. So I was not there doing some of the demonstrations, but I was there enough to be voting. We were also involved in getting more rights for graduate students and things like that. And I saw what would happen to doing the demonstrations but what people did once you threw stone through the window of the Dean's office. I mean, that was sort of the middle class kids throwing that off and becoming agents and radicalized. And it was not something that I felt that... Maybe I made those decisions afterwards. That is what was happening. SM (00:22:03): Your background is one again, where high school and college, women had a voice. Women were important, in a lot of society. A lot of women did not have that feeling. And one of the criticisms of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement has been that women were placed in secondary roles, not all but most. And they got tired of the way men treated them. And that was one of the thrusts of the women's movement. They split away from the anti-war civil rights. And even people I have talked to admit that those two movements were just, were that way. MT (00:22:49): Oh, they were. Absolutely. SM (00:22:50): Did you think that is one of the main reasons why the second wave of the women's- MT (00:22:54): Oh, yeah. I think absolutely. I mean, I experienced in slightly different way, because I was not in groups that resisted my voice as a woman since in the New review that I was organizing, that did not happen. But I did when feminism began, when it dawned on me, although as I said, I have been doing proto feminist organizing in terms of students’ rights and maids’ rights and things like that, I realized that this was a way that I could experience and influence change through my own situation as opposed to working with other oppression. So that is what was important to me. It sort of transferred all those things that I felt in terms of the Civil rights movement and the anti-war movement in a way, because in a way, I was not going to get directed. SM (00:24:04): I know there has been some books recently written saying that women were very powerful in the Civil rights movement. And that even list of the names, there is books and written about women of the South that were important and so forth. But overall, I think even within the Civil Rights movement, it was a male dominated movement. And that is why I would have loved to talk to Bratt Scott King to- MT (00:24:35): Or Fannie Lou Hamer. I mean, yeah. And Fannie Lou was shifting ahead somewhat. SM (00:24:48): Dorky Hyde was another one. MT (00:24:49): Yeah, Dorky Hyde was their driver. But Fannie Lou was one of the founders of the National Women's Political Caucus. I mean this was... If we go forward here now, we are going forward. I was at Columbia. I left graduate school. I left during the strike because I realized we all went on strike. And I also realized at that point, I did not want to teach. It was very hard at Columbia because the classes were... I do not know when you went through graduate school, but the classes were... SM (00:25:23): I started at (19)72. MT (00:25:25): Well, that is a little beyond, but in (19)68, our class was like 200 or 104 or something. And everybody knew all those people were not going to get jobs, but it was bloated, partly because you could still get out of the draft in graduate school. So graduate school was sort of shocked me because you had to jockey for position and politic to get the attention of professors. And so in any case, I just left. I left in (19)68, I went on strike and did not come back, is what basically happened. Now, did you get your PhD or? No, okay. And I had a 20-page paper that I did not turn in, so I did not get a master's either. But I mean, it is that sort of thing. Who cares? Although later, I think the Masters would have helped. So I left, and then I worked for something called Fax on file for three years, which is a news reference service. I sort of got into journalism that way. Excuse me. And then the magazine started, I had gone off, my boyfriend at the time was teaching in Renovo, and we had gone to stay in France for half a year or something. So I was living there, and that is the time when Miz started. And when I came back, my friend Joanne, who might mention who was the one in Tulu in the [inaudible] had been Gloria. She had gone down to work for Evers campaign, not Neicker but his brother, Charles. And so had met Gloria that way through friends of hers. Pat Darian was her friend. So Gloria had come back. She had had leave Mississippi, basically because her family put too much pressure on her. She just could not deal with it. So she came back and was Gloria's assistant at the time the magazine started. So when I came back from having left Facts on File and been in France, the magazine was starting and Joanne said, come in, because I do not want to do research, and that is what they are going to make me do. So you come in and do that so. SM (00:28:06): What year was this? 19...? MT (00:28:08): I am sorry, excuse me. The magazine's preview, who came out at the end of (19)71 and Volume one, number one came out in July of (19)72. So it was that spring, it was February of (19)72 that I came back and started working for Miz. So I do not know when I was... what Train we were on when I was thinking, oh, the caucus was starting, and the caucus also started that year at (19)71. And so Fannie, that is when I met, and I had gone to Washington briefly after I had worked with Paxon File and worked as a volunteer for the caucus, the National Women's Political Caucus. And that is what I met Fannie Lou. I mean, no, I had seen her before because I had been at the demonstrations in... Where was it? Atlantic City, the Freedom Democratic Party Demonstrations. SM (00:29:20): Yes, (19)64 that was. Right? (19)68. MT (00:29:29): (19)68. SM (00:29:29): No, that was (19)64, because Johnson was not... He did not run the- MT (00:29:30): It was (19)64, right and (19)68 was in Chicago. But I have Pan Lou had been speaking, I mean, I had seen her as an organizer, but I had not met her. And she was part of the caucus finally. So yes, there were these wonderfully strong women who were involved in the Civil Rights movement. And some of them merged into the women's movement in a way that I do not think... I mean, people talk about the women's movement as being white and middle class. Well, it certainly was not on that side of it, on the political. I think what has happened is that because the caucus was involved in politics, you immediately had this impetus to be more inclusive in terms of race and things like that so. And Gloria was always very careful too, about when she went out to speak, she always had a black woman with her as a co-speaker. So that was a kind of influential. SM (00:30:38): How did Gloria Steinem come to this? She had been a Playboy Bunny or once- MT (00:30:45): Well, no, she had done that as a story. She had gone underground as a Playboy Bunny and to write a story for... I do not think it was for New York, although she worked for New York Magazine at that point. She had gotten radicalized by the, which I think many people did, by the abortion movement in New York State. New York State decriminalized abortion, I think before a lot of other places. And she had already been sort of involved in terms of... Well, she had been a supporter, Caesar Chavez and the farm workers, but she covered the debates in law Albany about abortion, which were completely outrageous because there were not any women who were testifying about the need to decriminalize these. So there were speak outs that were organized and things like that. And that was really what she was doing. And then she started writing about women's issues for New York. And then people wanted the magazine of the... There was talk about doing a feminist magazine. And so she had meetings in her house with a lot of different editors and different writers and different activists. And that is how Miz began. SM (00:32:26): And that is her brainchild on there. MT (00:32:29): Pretty much. There were other people, Susan Brown Miller had been working at one. SM (00:32:32): Oh, I interviewed her. MT (00:32:35): She had been working at... Well, there had been a sit-in at Ladies Home Journal that Susan had been involved in. So there were different things coming together. But yes, I mean Leddy Pilger, she had written this book called How to Make It In A Man's World, but she was involved in the start of the caucus and had been sort of becoming more feminist. And Pat Carine was editor of McCall's at this point. She had been an editor at Look, so she had sort of a hard news... Not hard news, but a featuring news background as well as women's... And she was very interested. So she and Gloria sort of got together to be the two... SM (00:33:25): When you had just finished your undergraduate years and you were heading off to grad school, (19)66, that was also the year that the Feminine Mystique was written by- MT (00:33:36): Was it (19)66 or did she do it? No, I guess it was, yeah. SM (00:33:44): I have got down here. (19)66 was an important year because in 66, the Feminist Mystique was written and. MT (00:33:50): Feminine Mystique, yeah. SM (00:33:56): Yeah, and I also know that some of the women that were involved in the formation of the National Organization for Women were people like Paul Murray and- SM (00:34:03): Organization for women. MT (00:34:03): Right. SM (00:34:03): People like Pauli Murray and Shirley Chisholm. Well, Shirley was not involved in National Organization for Women, I do not think, but Pauli Murray certainly was and so was Aileen Hernandez, who you could still talk to, although you are done with your interviews, but- Aileen who? MT (00:34:19): Hernandez, H-E-R-N-E... I do not know. I think she sort of... I interviewed her for the [inaudible] Book. She was the second president of NOW, and she is a Black woman who still is an organizer in San Francisco. SM (00:34:38): Oh, wow. MT (00:34:39): So- SM (00:34:39): I have interviewed 22 people. MT (00:34:40): Yeah, I know. I can get you her email if you want. SM (00:34:46): Yeah. MT (00:34:46): Then you could just ask her some questions- SM (00:34:49): I am going to be out in San Francisco. I am done with the interviews, but I continue to have them, some people that I contacted a long time ago, or now contact- MT (00:35:01): Yeah, I think she still will. I mean, she is getting up there. SM (00:35:06): How important was that book? MT (00:35:08): To me, I did not even know about it. SM (00:35:10): Okay. You did not know about it? MT (00:35:12): No, but it was very important to a group of people who felt trapped in that role. I am a little bit younger and definitely was not trapped in that role. I mean, I certainly went through periods of domesticity, but I knew about it later. I met Betty when the caucus was forming and she was a little bit antagonistic about the magazine, about Bella and Gloria. Bella was also involved in the caucus formation, so there was a little tension there. I think Betty and Bella made peace at the end of their lives, but those are two strong personalities. SM (00:36:15): Oh, yeah. Definitely. MT (00:36:18): Barbara Jordan was very important too, to the- SM (00:36:22): Oh, yeah. MT (00:36:23): ...to the women's movement. Bella and Shirley, you can see in my book, they collaborated on childcare. It was so interesting. You should read the interviews in that book that I did with Marco Politi, who was Bella's aid. Because they just failed, there was legislation dealing with women's issues that just sailed through Congress at a great rate in the early (19)70s. SM (00:36:56): And that is due mainly to the- MT (00:37:00): Yeah, to Bella and to Shirley. I am trying to think if there are other people. There were some other congresswomen who were... SM (00:37:08): Yeah, Shirley came to our campus. I met her. I have a lot of pictures of her when she was there. MT (00:37:17): They had very strong voices. And it was a sort of... But they were stopped on some issues. The main one being that I can... Well, the RA of course, I mean, it sailed through Congress, but then it was stopped in the States, but also childcare, because Nixon vetoed it. That is I think, a very important event, because had he not vetoed that bill, it was set up to not just provide childcare for poor people, but to set a structure that would have involved middle class women as well and I am sure would have become... SM (00:37:59): Why did he veto it? Was he- MT (00:38:01): Socialist. It was communist plot. SM (00:38:01): Okay, so he was actively anti- MT (00:38:08): I mean, I do not think he believed that. I think partly, it was political. It was catering to... Maybe he did believe it. I do not know. But that is what the anti-childcare... You do not want the government bringing up your children, which of course, not what was going to happen but- SM (00:38:28): Hey, with all the criticisms they have of Richard Nixon as a president, he was much more liberal than people realized. MT (00:38:34): Well, that is right. SM (00:38:34): ...particularly on a lot of the social issues. And of course, his international firm in reaching out to China, no matter what you say, that was excellent. Some people I have interviewed have said that was only the major happenings of- MT (00:38:50): Oh, I think so. I went to- SM (00:38:52): ...and yet he destroyed it all by what he did in the- MT (00:38:56): Well, but I mean, he was also not trustworthy. Even the childcare thing proves that. SM (00:39:04): Yeah. MT (00:39:05): I went to China in 1978 with a group of journalists. It was soon enough after that, it was right after the Gang of Four fell. SM (00:39:15): Oh yes. Yeah. MT (00:39:16): So it was a really interesting period. Anyway. SM (00:39:19): What happened in the early (19)70s that created the second wave in the women's movement? MT (00:39:25): Well, there were these- SM (00:39:25): [inaudible] as a boomer- MT (00:39:25): Go ahead. SM (00:39:28): When you look at boomers, I have to preface this by saying that boomers are those more between (19)46 and (19)64. But I also include, after interviewing so many people, people that I consider having the spirit and the role modeling that many of the people between 35 and 45 have of the boomers. So really, when I say boomer, I am talking about in terms of mentality. MT (00:39:56): Right. SM (00:39:57): And time wise. Have you been pleased with the way these boomers have actually carried on the women's movement? We are today into the third wave of some... It is a two-part question. What happened in 19- MT (00:40:14): (19)70. SM (00:40:14): What happened in the early (19)70s for the second wave to start? And when and why did the third wave start in the (19)90s? Because a lot of criticism today of the third wave is kind of isolated. You do not see them out there and as visible as you saw the second wave. MT (00:40:34): Well, I mean, I would say the second wave, there were two strains, and I am sure Joe will have told you this, Freeman, because she writes about it, I think. There was a group that was organized around women's rights that basically came out of the Kennedy Commission. There was a commission that Kennedy formed on women's rights, which was a basic commission on the status of women that did a study of women's rights. And a lot of the early NOW people and WEAL, Women's Equity Action League is another important one, the people that founded NOW, some of them were commissioners or staff people on that commission. There is a woman named Catherine East who was at the Women's Bureau for years and had been involved in that commission. And she is someone who collected data forever and ever until it came to the Bush administration who had started throwing out that capacity of the labor department to produce data that supported job actions and things like that. So there was all that going on in sort of legislative women's rights angle. And then there was the group of the more radical feminists that came out of the anti-war and Civil Rights movement, who came out more of a protest movement. And Joe would consider herself part of that as Robin Morgan, all sorts of people. And that was another. And so those two groups sometimes on a couple of issues were a little antagonistic. One of the only one I remember is that there was a move to stop for sterilization among especially Latina women in New York. And some NOW people were against that, because they thought part of it was a waiting period before you could sterilize a woman. And that was too close to the limitations they were putting on abortion. So there were certain clashes. But basically there were two very strong segments that gave a sort of legal and street cred to the women's movement, that was quite strong. And that was all going on in the (19)70s. That is when [inaudible] had its heyday. And you can see from the letters that when we started publishing, people from all over the country said, "I thought I was the only person who felt this way." SM (00:43:44): It has happened many times. MT (00:43:47): Just astonishing. So there was this whole untapped reservoir feeling, which I think was organized during that time. And then what happened? I mean, I will just go on, but you can stop me and ask questions. I do not think there was, or at least I do not see it as a sort of stop and start thing. What I see is a lot of people organizing less in national groups, but in more local things or around particular issues. I mean, for instance, in the women's movement here in the United States, rape was an important issue. In England, it was more organized around domestic violence, but they were both sort of against violence against women and those cross fertilized. But people became... As opposed to in some multi-issue organization, they would start rape crisis centers, or they would start domestic violence centers, or they would work for gay rights. And then there was a whole thing where all those things were brought together in a national way, was at the Houston Conference, which was in 1977, which Bella got government funding for. SM (00:45:16): I have a book on at that conference. [inaudible] MT (00:45:26): So that is what I think happened. I think there was a lot of just people and Black women would organize, and Latina women would organize. And I mean, I think it was sort of a natural thing when people started directing their energies to more specific issues. And as far as I am concerned, it was all part of the women's movement. I that we always saw it as that. And there was the campus, a lot of women's studies was a big center. SM (00:46:07): Yeah. It is interesting. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, who was one of the main people, one of the reasons why the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass, I think it was 35 states passed it, but you need 38. MT (00:46:24): Yeah. It was ridiculous. I mean, when we started [inaudible] we said it will be passed within a month or two. It will be ratified. SM (00:46:33): It was not passed in Ohio, because I remember my former boss who just passed away, who was one of the leaders of the Ohio movement, she just about cried. MT (00:46:43): I think it was ratified and then it was taken back or something, I think that is what- SM (00:46:48): I do not know. I remember the vote was... And I worked at OU at the time, and she was listening to it on the radio from Columbus. And I can remember when she came out, she broke down, because she- MT (00:46:59): Well, it was just- SM (00:46:59): ...just spent two years on it. MT (00:47:01): It was shocking, because it seemed so basic. And as I said, it had gone through, the only hitch of going through Congress was the labor movement, who did not want to give up protections. I mean the shorter hours for women and things like that. But once that was worked through- SM (00:47:23): So the criticisms of the women's movement today is that people try to compare it to the way it was in the (19)70s where- MT (00:47:32): It was a national- SM (00:47:36): ...there were protests. They were unified with many other groups. It could be the anti-war groups, the civil rights groups, the gay and lesbian groups, the environmental groups. There seem to be- MT (00:47:47): More culture. SM (00:47:48): ...in protest, a unity amongst all these groups. Now, today, even when I am talking to lesbian leaders, it is isolated. We do not see the groups together. They are into their own thing. They are not working together. I am not sure they might be working together, as someone said in Congress, but they are certainly not being visible together. MT (00:48:14): No, they are not visible in the same way. They are not visible in the same way as a sort of protest movement. Maybe that is because... Partly it is because they are so successful in changing minds, at least in terms of women's movement. But there are certainly... I am trying to think of where... There is a lot, I mean, there are other kinds of campus actions. Well, throughout this whole period, there are things like Take Back the Night marches, which is something that certainly still motivates younger feminists. SM (00:49:00): And what is the purpose of that? We have it every year on our campus [inaudible]. But what is it, these people are reading this. A lot of people believe that it is because those people were murdered up in Canada. MT (00:49:15): No, it was not really that. Anyway- SM (00:49:17): A lot of people at Westchester University thinks that is why it happened. So they are misinformed. MT (00:49:21): Well, I mean, I do not connect it. Certainly that was a big issue, but mostly it was because of predatory people on campuses that were... Take Back the Night was, women should feel safe walking through their own campus. I mean, there was a whole issues about acquaintance rape that were developed during the (19)70s and (19)80s. And so I mean, there was more of that impetus than the Canada one, I think. SM (00:50:15): Yeah. And another big issue was that pill that college students were- MT (00:50:20): Yeah, the date rape. SM (00:50:21): Yeah, date rape. MT (00:50:23): Pill. SM (00:50:23): And they would knock a female out. And that was big in Westchester, because two guys did it and they were caught. I mean, they were nice guys. Did not think they were not very ice. MT (00:50:37): Yeah, I know. SM (00:50:41): Their parents found out about their two sons and boy they were gone. MT (00:50:46): So there are those issues that I think motivate younger women. And I think the abortion issue is one that is now things that younger women took for granted are now coming into play again. SM (00:51:04): One female leader told me in an interview, and I will not mention the name, she said, she will visit the National Organization for Women Office now. And all she will see, as far as the literature is concerned, is literature on abortion, literature on aids, literature on was the third one, reproductive rights or something like that. And a lot of the issues centering on equal pay, being hired like a man is high. The issues that were many times front and center in the women's movement, do not seem to be like- MT (00:51:48): Well, I do not think that that is exactly true. Not with that particular issue. Because of the woman who brought suit, Congress had to overturn the Supreme Court ruling on, why am I forgetting her name? The equal pay thing. And then now there is currently a push to, there is an equal pay law that is in Congress now. That is a big thing. So I think that issue, but I think probably that is always been true of now that they have been more on sort of legalistic and abortion front than they have been active and effective on... SM (00:52:32): And this same person was very critical of an organization, because they did not even deal with the issue of pornography. MT (00:52:42): No. SM (00:52:43): They let it ride. I mean, there is nothing, that you would only ever see them... MT (00:52:47): But yeah, that was not there. Again, there were anti porn feminist groups. There was a clash between free speech feminists and anti porn feminists that we certainly documented in [inaudible]. There was a cover that said one woman's pornography is another woman's erotica. I mean, yeah, I mean that there was active kinds of... SM (00:53:18): See, another thing that came out too, you are dealing with different ethnic groups. Because I think [inaudible] has done a great job in that area, because I had looked at the literature and I see people of color from the get go. MT (00:53:30): Absolutely. But that is not seen as- SM (00:53:32): Yeah. But genetic colon, I think in one of the early folks, sister president, she talked about the pressures within her own African American community. When someone would ask her, this is when she is president of Stone, would ask her, well, what cause are you really identified with, are you really one of us, which is being the African American issues of racism? Or are you a feminist? Are you a African American first or a feminist first? And then there was a whole issue of the gay and lesbian. Where do you fall on that? Because she had dealt with some issues with the school on that. So she felt conflicted over the first two. And from her peers. Is that a pretty common pressure? MT (00:54:19): I think it is. Although how ridiculous is that? I mean, the core issue are I mean, they should be the tightest coalition. So that exists. And they have been in various times. But I certainly think that Genetical and many other Black women have felt that pressure. And it is one of the reasons that Gloria was so tried to be so careful about having two people out there. But certainly the women's movement has been criticized often as being a Lilly white movement. And as I said, it just was not. SM (00:55:01): When I first started this project, and I mentioned doing a dual book on the Boomer generation, that is about white men, is not it? I have perceptions of boomers as being white men and white women, but not, and no, it is everybody. And so I try, Native American, you name it. MT (00:55:21): You talked to LaDonna too, did not you? SM (00:55:21): I have talked to LaDonna. MT (00:55:21): So that is good. SM (00:55:21): Unbelievable. What a great- MT (00:55:21): And she was one of the founders of the caucus too. SM (00:55:31): Yeah. In fact, she is coming to, she is fighting cancer, and I probably should not review that, but I interviewed her and depends on her health will depend upon her coming back east this summer, because they have started the [inaudible] Center and I think at Indiana, no, not Indiana, California, University of Pennsylvania. And I said, if she comes back, I want to take her to lunch. But I have not heard. But what a great person. MT (00:56:05): Well, and also the Cherokee woman, why cannot I remember her? SM (00:56:10): You mean [inaudible]? MT (00:56:12): No. I will think of her name. SM (00:56:15): Wilma Manquel? MT (00:56:16): Wilma. Yeah, Wilma. I mean, she was a very good friend of Gloria's and lovely woman. And Ladonna's daughter is an organizer. SM (00:56:28): Yes. And I talked to her husband, Fred Harris too. I mean, even though they are divorced, they are still close as anything. What began, this might be a little repetitive, but what began as a battle for equal pay, an equal status of all women in American life, in the area of jobs going to college, sports, leadership roles, politics? Why did the following issues become so forceful when now is organized? And [inaudible] Magazine came out and I talk about the abortion rights and the Roby Wade of (19)73 and the ERA of (19)74, which I mentioned earlier, then reproductive rights and certainly all the isms, were very important to now. And certainly lesbian rights became important as well, gay rights. Why did those take center stage? MT (00:57:31): Well, I think they took center stage, because they were easy to grasp. I think when the caucus was founded, one of the arguments that Bella and Gloria had with Betty is whether to include an anti-violence plank, an anti-war plank? And Gloria and Bella won that argument. So part of the organizing foundation of the caucus was, which had always been a strong part of women's movement since Women's Strike for Peace, was that kind of group. But I think the sort of more simple, or even symbolic, if you think of it that way, of the ERA, were easy to organize. And abortion touched everyone's life. I mean, people remembered, if you are my age, many people went for back alley abortions. So that was really a strong issue. But then I think the issues of domestic violence and violence against women in pornography and those issues emerged as something that the women's movement was deeply concerned about. And then international feminism was at the end of the, basically, I mean it had been around all the time, but basically at the end of the (19)80s became very important. And then- SM (00:59:11): Robin Warren wrote a book on that. MT (00:59:13): Robin did, and Bella was very involved in international families. And Robin worked, I mean, she did, sisterhood was global, which was the anthology. And then that brought in development issues and environmental issues worldwide for women. And that is a very strong strain of women's movement today. SM (00:59:43): When you look at all these, the progression movement women have gone through in the, I would say (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, and right through today, and think of the women who were the mothers of the generation, the boomer generation, 17 million from 1946 after the war ended, to 1960, early (19)60s. MT (01:00:07): Excuse me. SM (01:00:08): These issues, many of them probably were not even being discussed by them, meant like Phyllis Schlafly says, "What is wrong with raising children and being fulfilled as a mother?" I mean, that was the way it was back then. And she says, feels her greatest accomplishment was her kids and being there for her husband, despite all of her accomplishments as a writer, as a lawyer, as she will go back to those two things. MT (01:00:33): Yeah, that is ridiculous. SM (01:00:35): Yeah. But you see, she said she speaks for a lot of women. But so you have the conflict where you read a book and say that most women were not fulfilled in the (19)50s, but they just could not express it. And they raised the kids, but they were very unhappy and probably would have divorced, but they kept together. MT (01:00:57): No, I do not think most women would say that. I do not think that is true. I think a lot of women were, my mother certainly never felt unfulfilled. And Gloria has always said that raising a human being is probably the most challenging job in the world. I mean, I think the thing is that it helps if fathers get involved too. And that is the real push. And I think it is happening. I mean, my nephew is a much different person by far than his father's generation, in terms of what he expects out of his life and the kinds of things he does in his marriage. SM (01:01:50): One of the things kids would say is the father was always away and the mom was always at home. So they were closer to the mom, obviously. MT (01:01:54): Yeah. SM (01:01:58): Because the father was away making a living. Now you see a reverse where the husband might be at home. A lot of things, a lot of changes are going on. MT (01:02:11): Yeah. SM (01:02:11): Definitely. MT (01:02:12): And that generation has completely different expectations. So I think that is very interesting. SM (01:02:18): Some say that, I always use that term some, because I have interviewed so many people, that Betty [inaudible], Gloria Steinem are mainstream feminists and they are really not radical [inaudible]. Few things here. What is the difference between a radical feminist and a mainstream feminist? Because people that are... SM (01:02:38): There you go. MT (01:02:38): Well- SM (01:02:38): Hold on. MT (01:02:38): Okay. SM (01:02:39): Let me turn this over here. And so you are doing both. I have been doing two takes halfway through first 100 and I only did one take. MT (01:03:05): Well, I do not think that is a correct analysis. I mean, I know people that have that analysis. Mostly they are academic feminists, I think. I would say that, I mean, Gloria's certainly a radical. I mean, I am less sure about Fredan. I was never that close to her. And I think it is probably not true. I mean, as I have indicated, she had to be talked into the anti-war plank. She had a problem at the beginning with having the women's movement involved with lesbian rights. So I think that was a sort of different frame of mind. But I think Gloria has always been fairly radical. Across the board, I do not think she would define herself as one thing or another, but she is open to any number of issues. So I do not see this clear divide between, I see it at the beginning as I described how they arose from any more movement and the more women's rights movement. But I do not see it going forward. I mean, I think once you get involved in the particular issues of feminism, maybe there are radical approaches and there are legal approaches. But a lot of those work together. I mean, I think it is more in sort of academic theoretical circles that you get this kind of insistence on the division and what is mainstream and what is known. There is always who is known and who is called upon and who is lesser now? SM (01:04:56): Where would you place from different era here now, because I have been from an academic environment, and I know that people have talked about it in some of our programs, not in any of my interviews, but there is a difference between mainstream and radical. And where would you place the following people, people that we grew up with and know historically, Bella, Shirley Chisholm, Molly Yard, Tricia Ireland, Eleanor Smeal, Robin Morgan, Mary Daley, who just passed away recently. Jermaine Greer, who I met six months ago. MT (01:05:41): Jermaine is a trick. I mean, she is gone. SM (01:05:46): And so then of course, Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton and... MT (01:05:48): I do not know- SM (01:05:48): And Helen Gurley Brown and Susan Brown Miller. And you have got Rebecca Walker and LaDonna Harris, Carol Gilligan and Winona Rider. MT (01:06:02): And Alice Walker. SM (01:06:05): Yeah. So there is a lot of different ones there. MT (01:06:07): But I do not know, I could try to figure out how they think of themselves or how they rose, what strain they came out of. But I mean, certainly Robin came out of a radical strain. But I cannot really define people that way. I mean, Dorothy Hyde came out of a very sort of traditional women's organization kind of place. But I think tactically things work at different times, different tactics work at different times, which is how I would approach whatever issue I was interested in. I mean, when Gloria speaks, she tries to tell her audience, do one outreaches act today. I mean, that is your form of organizing, which makes you think. But I mean, I think basically what is appropriate in terms of, and I think that although it is a sort of mainstream outcome, the idea that Bella was able to get money from Congress to put on the largest, actually the largest democratically elected conclave that there ever has been in this country, which is what the Houston Conference was, is pretty radical. I mean, it is not radical if you define radical as something other than electoral politics. And then if you look at the agenda- And then if you look at the agenda that came out at the Houston conference, it is completely inclusive. SM (01:08:14): You might even say the same thing though, the way you are describing it here is what people felt in 1848 with Elizabeth... MT (01:08:14): That is right. SM (01:08:20): Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, who believed that they were connected to the hip, when in reality they had tremendous disagreements later in life. I think they split at some juncture. MT (01:08:32): I am not sure. I do not know that they split. SM (01:08:36): I forget what the issue was, but there was a big one later on. MT (01:08:40): Well, there was a big issue with black women, with the race issue. Because at one point, I do not know who it was... SM (01:08:42): Frederick Douglass was very close to Elizabeth Cady Stanton. MT (01:08:42): Yeah. SM (01:08:56): And of course then Susan B. Anthony was coming from Rochester and that is where [inaudible] had the North star, the newspaper. MT (01:09:05): Yeah. SM (01:09:07): Maybe what you are saying is that we are seeing it is a different era, a different time. So how you define people is very difficult because one person's radical is another person's mainstream. MT (01:09:26): Or people can be mainstream and radical in their life. SM (01:09:31): Yeah. MT (01:09:31): Whatever. At whatever point one tactic works and another does not. SM (01:09:43): Yeah. MT (01:09:43): That is how I think of myself. I do not give myself those labels. SM (01:09:45): When you look at the women's movement, of course conservative women are, we all know Phyllis Schlafly, but a lot of people do not know others. MT (01:09:56): Well, there is Sarah Palin and... SM (01:10:01): Yeah. Well, there is Sarah Palin. The ones that I have listed here are more recent. Of course, Phyllis Schlafly, Gertrude Himmelfarb is older. Sarah Palin, Margaret Thatcher from England, Michelle Easton. MT (01:10:17): I do not know. SM (01:10:17): She does the Clare Boothe Luce Institute at Clare Boothe Luce And then of course, there is Ann... MT (01:10:23): Brockman. SM (01:10:25): Yes. Brockman. And then you got Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingram, [inaudible] Buchanan and I cannot even read the last person. But yeah, Ms. Brockman. MT (01:10:42): It is nuts. These women are nuts. SM (01:10:44): When the women's movement looks at them. Is it like the Black caucus from Washington looking at the JC Watts and the other John who was a conservative? Is it right to eliminate a group because of their politics or a women's... MT (01:11:03): Yeah. Yeah. The reason it is right is that they are not champions of other women. And in that sense, they are not feminists. If you do not support services for women or equal pay, equal rights for women or childcare, I do not know how you can call yourself a feminist. I think Sarah Palin probably does, but as far as I am concerned, it is mislabeling. And I have to quote, going again, said, "We are never in favor of Eva Braun becoming head of state." SM (01:11:46): Yeah. MT (01:11:46): It is not a matter of gender at that point. It is a matter of outlook and interest. SM (01:12:01): And a lot of people used the black caucus in Washington as the best, especially when JC Watts was there, was very popular. MT (01:12:10): Right. SM (01:12:13): Former [inaudible] star. They would not get him the time of day because he was a conservative. And the other guy was Franks, was his name, the guy that proceeded him, he was conservative too. But that stirs some of the college... I work with college students and why not be inclusive even though they are... MT (01:12:32): Well, because their aims are different than yours. SM (01:12:34): Yeah. MT (01:12:36): That is the answer, there are people that have called themselves feminists and have been promoters of Sarah Palin but... SM (01:12:50): I got quite a few more questions and I only got 30 minutes to go here. What are the main accomplishments of the women's movement up to the third wave? And what has the third wave really done to add to the movement? And when I am dealing with college students and high school students who do not read their history, in your own words define first wave, second wave, third wave and their accomplishments. MT (01:13:22): I am not quite sure I can, but I can take a stab at some of this. I think a main accomplishment was simply put, when I graduated from college, I could not get a loan in my own name. I had to have my father sign for a Bloomingdale's card. So different pieces of legislation like equal credit legislation and things like that have been very empowering and part of that has to do with economic changes because women were more and more in the workforce. But I think that was certainly part of the women's movement. And the other thing is I think how feminists and others influenced by feminism have brought up their children. I think they are completely different expectations. As we talked about before, probably not all over the country, but between my nephew's generation and he is 30 now, is he 30? He may be older than 30. Well, in any case, he is in his 30s and generations that came before in terms of what gender roles would be. And another enormous contribution I think is the linking of international feminism. So that now... SM (01:15:04): A third wave, is not it? MT (01:15:04): Yeah. I think it came to fruition in the third wave, although I think, as I said, Bella was a big mover of that, and Robin and different people. But at the moment, I edit for the Women's Media Center. Well, you know that... SM (01:15:19): I love your website. MT (01:15:21): Oh, good. SM (01:15:22): I like your logo too. MT (01:15:23): Yeah. SM (01:15:23): Yeah. MT (01:15:25): But I just have a piece that I am going to put up based on an interview with Yanar Mohammed, who is head of a women's rights organization in Iraq. SM (01:15:36): Wow. MT (01:15:36): And we know these people. A friend of mine who also writes for me, Shazia Raki, I think her name is, is Secretary General. That is how they title them, of an international organization of parliamentarians, parliamentarians for human rights or something like that. And she is in contact with different women in parliament all over the world. And so we do the organization, Bella organized with men [inaudible], it is not as powerful as it used to be, but it is conceptually organized to promote women's development and the environment. There is this bringing together of those issues because environmental issues impact women so much more directly than men in the developing world. SM (01:17:00): There was the big conference and was it in China couple years ago? MT (01:17:04): It was a couple, being in 1995. SM (01:17:08): Yeah, that was a major... MT (01:17:10): Yeah. And that was the fourth of international conference. So that had been going on since... Mexico City was the first one. And then, oh, in Mexico City and in Europe, one in Europe and one in Africa, and then this one in Beijing, which was the culmination. SM (01:17:30): I think Hillary Clinton went to that, I think. MT (01:17:39): Hillary was there and she still has that message about women's rights, I think. SM (01:17:52): It is interesting about when people try to look at the history. If you look at 1848 Seneca Falls, and I go there every year. I took my dad there before he died, we had a great day there and... MT (01:17:53): It is beautiful for one thing. SM (01:17:57): Yeah, it is a beautiful place. And I go there just to take it all in. I go to Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home to get a feel for the history that took place in that house, which was basically the same and the furniture has gone, the sofa is still there, and the sofa that Frederick Douglass found. MT (01:18:14): Oh, wow. SM (01:18:27): You could feel, I can just feel when I was with my dad, their presence. When you look at the history from 1848 through today, we talk about first wave feminism that began at Seneca Falls. And we talk about the (19)70s, late (19)60s and (19)70s, and then the late (19)90s. But another period was around the prohibition period. MT (01:18:44): Right. The reform period. SM (01:18:46): And I do not know why they do not consider that second wave and then the (19)60s third wave. MT (01:18:52): Well, I think you could, there is a continuum. You are right. Except that there was, after the vote, I think people expected a lot more to happen. So I think the expectations were greater than what happened. And maybe that is why people cut it off. But then Eleanor Roosevelt, she was very instrumental in the commissions on the status of women in the Kennedy Commission. So I would put her as one of the... SM (01:19:30): You wrote several books, you wrote a book on Ms. Magazine, Letters to Ms. MT (01:19:31): Right. SM (01:19:41): I think it is a great book. And what did you learn from writing these books that you did not know before you started? And maybe I will add the book that you just wrote too. MT (01:19:50): Bella. SM (01:19:51): Bella. What surprised you the most when you wrote these books? Because you have a tremendous knowledge already. MT (01:19:59): Yes. I did. I think of the different... Because I did approach them, all of them actually as oral history volumes, that was not so much oral history that it was stories through letters so it was the same kind of thing. And I think what surprised me was the incredibly different ways that people come into consciousness. That is an old women's movement word, but into realizing, into the place where they start interacting with the world as feminists mostly, I have been dealing with feminists. So I think oral history is a powerful tool for that because you find out what is in peoples' background so that was surprising. When I did the Bella book, a lot of the surprising things... Well, I just found out about wonderful collaborations between Bella and Ron Dellums for instance. I had no idea and I just had a wonderful interview with Ron Dellums, who... SM (01:21:10): He is the mayor of Oakland. MT (01:21:13): This is right before he became mayor of Oakland when I interviewed him for that book. But he came into Congress the same year that Bella did. And they had this wonderful, incredibly warm relationship. But he was able to describe in this, it was just a terrific interview. SM (01:21:38): You already wrote a book, you know the experience with Bella and Mr. Dellums and of course we know about Elizabeth Cady... MT (01:21:47): Well, that is interesting. SM (01:21:50): With Douglass. The relationship between a powerful woman feminist with a feminist mind and an African American male... MT (01:21:58): Yeah. That is interesting. SM (01:21:58): Who has a sensitivity to women's issues as well, as issues of racism within his or her own community, I would think that would make a great book. MT (01:22:07): That is interesting. Well, I would like to write another book. So those things are wonderful. The other wonderful interviews I had with the Bella book, for instance, there was one with... SM (01:22:24): Chicken. Yeah. MT (01:22:24): There was one with a man who was a young lawyer with Bella. They were both entering lawyers in this law firm. And I just loved his mind because for us, he just set up the whole feeling of what law was after the second World War and labor law in particular, and the clashes that were going on and the fact that labor people had put off demands during the second World War. And then after the war was over, all this was bubbling forth. And there is another interview I had with Ireland, I cannot remember his first name. He was a journalist basically but he set up the whole sense of how things happened in the (19)50s. SM (01:23:20): Oh, wow. MT (01:23:22): And led into... So just these people with minds that could understand what was happening in social, the same thing you are trying to do, is understand what was happening in social movements. And with that book, those interviews were just astonishing to me because they would just bring in all the trains and make sense of things. SM (01:23:47): See, what comes out of this and the word 'context' comes out of everything. And I have always believed that we do not, I remember African Americans in the (19)70s saying that, "You do not know what it is like, you live in white skin. And whoever hears someone say they understand us, I doubt it. They have not lived like we do." So that is always been the subject that I am very sensitive to. And I do not believe we should be judging people, that is why context is important to understand from their, because they are the ones who live their lives. We did not live their lives. Let me check my time here. MT (01:24:17): It is just quarter after one. SM (01:24:17): Yeah. We got time, you are fine. One other thing, you have probably heard this before... MT (01:24:35): Oh. Of course, Liz. I should say, of course Liz was involved in all of this early (19)70s legislation too, which I... SM (01:24:39): Right. MT (01:24:40): But go ahead. SM (01:24:41): Yeah. And I am going to be talking to her a lot about Watergate and... MT (01:24:44): Oh, that is right. She and Barbara Jordan. SM (01:24:47): Yeah. Talked to her a lot about that. One of the things that I have heard from critics, with some of those conservatives that I mentioned is that some people say that feminists hate men. MT (01:25:03): Yeah, no. SM (01:25:07): And Ann Coulter is actually, we had her on the campus. She is actually a pretty nice person. I think she plays the game when she is on in front of a camera, but when she is behind, when you see her one-on-one, she did not even talk about that stuff. She talks about going to Cornell and it is amazing, her best friends are liberals. MT (01:25:33): Well... SM (01:25:34): Conservatives do not like her that well. They like her when she goes to the conferences and students and everything. But she has a, I know this for a fact because I have had friends in Washington and that her best friends are all liberals. And they chide her, based on the books she is writing. So anyway, let us not talk too much about her, but when you hear that, what do you... MT (01:25:57): Man hating? SM (01:25:58): Yeah. MT (01:26:00): That is always been a charge and that actually was one of the early charges that Betty had against, accused Bella and Gloria being man hating, which was ridiculous. Especially Bella, who had the sweetest, most lovely relationship with Martin that I have ever seen in terms of a married couple. Well, men were in positions of power, in terms of women's goals or in the position of being predators when it comes to issues of violence against women. But that did not mean that feminists had something against individual men or did not welcome men as partners in fighting these issues, as valuable partners in terms of some of these issues, speaking out. SM (01:27:12): It is interesting because Hugh Hefner comes up a lot in some of the conversations, and I believe he supports women's rights. MT (01:27:28): No, he supported his daughter. SM (01:27:28): Yeah. And the thing is, and he has always said that he did Playboy Magazine because it is art. It is artistic and he does not believe it is pornography and the beauty of the body and he is like an artist. And that is a conflict also within some of the people who try to understand though. And then the women, they grew up in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, they want to be looked at not just as an object, but... MT (01:27:59): Right. That is the point. And I do not think it is necessarily pornography either, but it certainly does not respect, the issue is respect. And I think Hefner, the Playboy Foundation tried to give money to all sorts of, to the ERA and to other causes. And did at some point, but to other points, women's groups sometimes rejected those. But I do not think it was a matter... I think it is a matter of respect and you take this man who treats women interchangeably, obviously. Even now, what does he have, three... SM (01:28:34): He was married. MT (01:28:38): Marry someone but there was three, you could not really... SM (01:28:42): Yeah, he got that TV show. MT (01:28:42): Right. SM (01:28:46): Yeah, they are all gone now. MT (01:28:46): Yeah. SM (01:28:49): He said he was going to marry that 25-year-old that broke off the last minute. MT (01:28:53): Whatever. You just cannot, I am sure he loves his daughter and I think he probably did have sympathy for some of these issues. But the basic thing is, I am not a big anti-porn feminist because I think sometimes they take it, the anti-porn people take it too far. But I do agree that people that are involved in pornography and involved in trafficking, mostly women are there against their will, against their economic will. Even if they... SM (01:29:42): The thing that surprises me is how many women today, young women who do pose for... MT (01:29:48): I think that... SM (01:29:49): They have no sensitivity; no knowledge of past history and they do not give a damn. MT (01:29:54): I know. But they are also, and more power to them, much more comfortable with their bodies and with their degrees of sexuality than my generation. So in a way that is all great. SM (01:30:09): Boomer women were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I mentioned that spiritually their people were older. How do Boomer women differ from Generation X and Millennial women who are connected more to the third wave than the second wave? And how important have young Boomers been activism wise since their youth in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Now, the young people in the late (19)60s and (19)70s were coming into their own in their early 20s at the time of the women's movement beginning. And I have always tried to understand it from the well-established writers and thinkers within the women's movement, are they disappointed? In terms of the people that have followed them? And can you compare the generations that have followed, there has been two. Generation X, which at times really could not stand the older generation. MT (01:31:19): Well, 'feminism' became a bad word. But the causes, they certainly clung to the same causes, that same causes define their lives in many ways. So although 'feminism' became a dirty word at beginning in about, well, the (19)80s... SM (01:31:46): When Reagan came in. MT (01:31:46): When Reagan came in and there was a lot of conflict. I think there is a lot of, there was discomfort and certainly young people were uncomfortable being branded as feminists in part because of the charge that feminists hated men and all this stuff. SM (01:32:04): Generation [inaudible]. MT (01:32:05): Yeah, exactly. And occasionally I would go to conferences and there is the wonderful history conference that, I do not know if it is still happening, but the Berkshires conference, which happened every four years and brought together all sorts of wonderful... And I remember a panel there in, it must have been the (19)80s, where there were older academics, feminists saying, "You younger women do not know, you just take everything for granted", blah, blah, blah. And one young woman got up and said, "Is not that what you want?" Which is just a wonderful comment. And of course it is. SM (01:32:58): Yeah. MT (01:32:59): And you cannot help but think, oh, they should know what struggles we went through. But in fact, the idea that the subsequent generations take for granted what you worked for is about the best validation you could think of. SM (01:33:18): Yeah, I think that is really true today for the Millennials. Yeah. They take for granted. But this is my perception, I think they truly care. MT (01:33:28): Oh, yeah. SM (01:33:29): And I believe they are very cognizant of the women's movement. I think women in college today are, I consider them much stronger than the Generation Xers. MT (01:33:39): Before. SM (01:33:39): And I see a link between Millennials and Boomers and with respect to the fact that they want to leave a legacy and make the world better, Boomers wanted to do it sooner and oftentimes without thinking that they want to do it sooner. But Millennials want to do it later, after 40. They want to raise a family. I have done that reading of Hunter Strauss's book on the generations. MT (01:34:07): Mm-hmm. SM (01:34:08): So I look at today's generations in a very positive way. I have had negatives a long time for Generation X. MT (01:34:15): Well, I think maybe the current generation is less affected by the negative feelings about activism, feminism, about things like man hating or things like making... I do not know. I think that could well be that there is this reaction to how aggressive the earlier activists were. SM (01:34:51): We did panels on the Boomer generation and Generation X at our college for two years. And there was a tension in the room between Boomers and they were Boomer faculty members basically and the Generation X students who were the sons and daughters of Boomers. It is interesting. But today, 85 percent of all the college students are the sons and daughters of Generation X people whereas 15 percent are still Boomer kids. But back in those days, in the (19)90s, they were mostly all from the Boomers. And two things came out of it, they were tired of hearing about the nostalgia about what it was like back then. MT (01:35:35): Certainly nostalgia was [inaudible]. SM (01:35:37): Yeah. MT (01:35:37): You cannot... SM (01:35:39): And then the second thing was, "I wish I had lived then." MT (01:35:41): Right. SM (01:35:58): Because you had causes and we had nothing. MT (01:35:58): Well, I think... SM (01:35:58): That was the (19)90s. That is not now. MT (01:35:58): Yeah, it was the (19)90s. But I think it would be hard to replicate the (19)60s. You look at what was happening so quickly, the music and going along with it and the culture. It was... SM (01:36:07): See, the only thing they really had was the anti-apartheid movement which was happening. MT (01:36:08): That is true. SM (01:36:12): That was important. But it was not everything. What does it mean to be a feminist in your own words? And does the women's movement differ from the feminist movement? MT (01:36:26): Oh, I use them interchangeably. Although I suppose you could define them differently. You could define the women's movement, I think people have used it differently having the women's movement be more strictly rights oriented and the feminist movement being more culturally oriented. But I use them interchangeably. And as a feminist, I think my definition of feminist is someone who sees the world through the perspective of women and gender, and understands issues in terms of how it affects women. And it is a champion for women, for empowerment of women. SM (01:37:16): So men can be called feminists. MT (01:37:24): Oh, yeah. Although, probably would have a different perspective than women who were coming at it from their own experience. But yes, I think so. SM (01:37:33): So Frederick Douglass was really a feminist and... MT (01:37:35): And Ron [inaudible] was certainly a feminist. Yes. Yeah. SM (01:37:45): What happened to that era when all activist groups were seen with each other? I think we already talked about this. MT (01:37:50): I think coalitions were hard to maintain, once organizations became established and interested in their own successes and longevity, I think coalitions became more difficult. SM (01:38:12): Would not you think though, the war in Afghanistan and certainly in Iraq, that you would see in Washington? There has been protests, but I have been to one, and I had not seen the signs. I would go by the signs and I also go with the people that are speaking. But to see more anti-war people from feminist groups, certainly the anti-war groups, the African American groups, Native American, Chicano, you name it, Asian groups all together against war. I would think... MT (01:38:52): You would think you would see this in droves. SM (01:38:53): I think when you... Yeah, I do not see it. MT (01:38:56): Well, I think that there is... Well, there is definitely a conflict within feminism in terms of Afghanistan because there is Code Pink and people like Jodie Evans who see no advantage to bad intervention and the [inaudible] majority, Ellie Sniel, people like that would support US actions that would help women in Afghanistan and there are those too. Jodie would argue that it is not really helping in the long run, these are not issues that can be advanced with an occupation force. And Ellie, I think would argue that intervention and empowerment of women in Afghanistan was enormously important. And I do not know where I would come down. I think they are both... But it is interesting that Jodie is... SM (01:40:05): Jodie who? MT (01:40:06): Jodie Evans, her name is, and she is a co-founder of a group called, you should look at it up, at least find it on the web, Code Pink. Code Pink goes and disrupts congressional hearings and everything like that. There is an absolute out of the (19)60s in your face demonstrating group. And Jodie happens to be the board president at the moment of the Women's Media Center. So she works very closely with Gloria, Gloria and Robin and Jane Fonda were founders of the Women's Media Center. So they all work closely together, but they have these different perspectives. SM (01:40:50): Yeah. Jodie. MT (01:40:55): Jodie Evans. Yeah. SM (01:40:56): I think she might be a good interview too. MT (01:40:58): She would be and she is in California most of the time, although she travels around. SM (01:41:08): I contacted Jane Fonda, but I contacted her a long... MT (01:41:10): Yeah, I think Jane probably would not have time. SM (01:41:12): She was with CNN and she was married to Ted Turner. MT (01:41:15): Ted Turner. Well, she is not married to Ted anymore. SM (01:41:17): Yeah. But she just said she was too busy. MT (01:41:22): Well, I think Gloria is involved in her own oral history work at Smith. So I think she probably would have the same reaction. But she is doing all the... SM (01:41:36): Yeah. MT (01:41:40): I think she made that commitment to do it with Smith. SM (01:41:42): Your thoughts on the job that the media has done in covering the movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and I am going to make a few comments here. The media, there is a brand-new book I interviewed a person at Regional College in Philadelphia, just written a book on the media and how covered the (19)60s... filled out and just written a book on the media and how it covered the (19)60s, and the sensationalism was all they cared about as opposed... And it is left lasting images that were really not true because- MT (01:42:13): Like bra burning. SM (01:42:14): Yeah. The image of the media was supposed to always build things up. The- MT (01:42:21): I do not know. I do not know. I mean, I do know that it was always a joke, and Bill said someone would come out with a headline, The Women's Movement Is Dead, almost every year since 1973. SM (01:42:39): Well, just my question here is your thoughts on the job that the media's done in covering the movement in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s in particular, and maybe even beyond. Did they concentrate on the sensational or the unusual, or what was really happening every day? I use the examples here, the bra burning in Atlantic City, what we saw about people being nude at Woodstock, which was really a minority, if you really know- MT (01:43:03): Well, and you know that the bra burning never took place. SM (01:43:05): Yes. I know that did not take place. There were maybe about 20 people that were new that [inaudible]. It was not very many. MT (01:43:10): Yeah. And they were covered in mud. So, what the hell? SM (01:43:16): Yeah. The drugs. The drugs at the Summer of Love in San Francisco. Of course, I put in here the song that was very popular at the time in the (19)60s, Love the One You're With, which was an image that free sex no matter what is happening. The communal movement where there were lots of sex. That is kind of the perception that people had. Just your thoughts on what the media has done for the women's movement and for the movers and on the events of that period, were they well upfront? Were they honest, or were they... MT (01:43:55): I think there were certainly journalists who were absolutely wonderful. I mean, Eileen Shanahan comes to mind, who was an early... She was a Times reporter who did mostly economic stuff. But then she started covering the women's movement. She for the Times, and then Shabel Shelton for the Washington Times at that point, which was completely different than the Washington Times now, or Washington... the other paper besides those. These women were absolutely wonderful in terms of covering the women's movement. I think that the press, the media was completely essential to the spreading of feminism. The fact that they were there and they were covering these issues was very important. On the other hand, as I said, there is a tendency in the media that said all this or all that. That is why you always had these feminism is dead sign. There was a news forecaster who when Ms. came out, said, "I would give it six months." SM (01:45:05): Oh, my God. MT (01:45:06): And we got him to come back five years later and do an ad for us. It was Reasoner... Was it, Reasoner? SM (01:45:09): Harry Reasoner? MT (01:45:17): I think so. Who did an ad for us. It said, "I gave it six months. I was wrong." I mean, he said it so... SM (01:45:19): That is an interesting anecdote. MT (01:45:27): Yeah. I think I must have it in the... SM (01:45:28): Even on ABC, Harry Reasoner. MT (01:45:28): I think it was Reasoner. You know- SM (01:45:33): He was also 60 Minutes. MT (01:45:35): Yeah. But... Oh. SM (01:45:35): He did both. MT (01:45:37): Maybe. I wonder if it was someone else. Anyway, it is in the Ms. book. You can find it. So, I am up to Mines. Now at the Women's Media Center, a lot of what we are doing is identifying sexism in the media, which is surely easy to find. But mostly that is not the main... I mean, part of it is mainstream media, but part of it is talk radio and the cable stations. There is all these horrendous stories that people will watch out for and send in to the Women's Media Center and then it is spotlighted on the thing. SM (01:46:22): You know, it was Eddie Hoffman was very outspoken when he did all these crazy things with the hippies. He says, " You got to do crazy stuff to be able to get the media to cover you." That is the way you do it. MT (01:46:36): Yes. I suppose that is true. But the women, there was absolutely coverage. I remember when I was volunteering for the caucus in (19)71, and Liz Carpenter was Press Secretary of Ladybird Johnson and very involved in... She was one of the founders of the caucus. She was so media savvy. This is during the Nixon administration. There was an appointment in the Supreme Court to fill, and I think it was Liz's idea. She said, "We will put out a list of women who are qualified." That was picked up all over the place. It became an issue. It became something that Nixon had to consider. He did not do it then. But then Sandra Day O'Connor came on, not that far, I mean, during the Reagan administration. So, there was a way of... That is before. The media has been now much more dispersed. But there was a way of capturing, if you knew how things worked, and certainly Yappy did. SM (01:47:46): Oh, my God. MT (01:47:48): And Liz Carpenter did, in a much more mainstream way. I mean, there were- SM (01:47:52): [inaudible] dollar bills [inaudible] MT (01:47:55): There were ways of using that. SM (01:47:59): You keep making reference to the media caucus. What was that, the women's caucus? What was that? MT (01:48:06): What? The women's media... SM (01:48:06): Yeah. Caucus. MT (01:48:09): Oh, no. There is the Women's Media Center, which is what I work for now, which is something that is been founded in the last six years by Robin, Gloria and Jane Fonda. There were the... Oh, the National Women's Political Caucus was what I was referring to before, which Bella, Shirley, Betty Friedan... I am forgetting someone. SM (01:48:38): And that started what year? MT (01:48:39): (19)71. SM (01:48:41): And the basic purpose was? MT (01:48:43): Get women appointed and elected to office. SM (01:48:46): Very good. MT (01:48:47): And it still exists, although it had chapters in every state at one point. SM (01:48:55): Mm-hmm. How we doing time-wise there? Is it going to quarter of there? MT (01:49:00): It is 20 up. SM (01:49:01): 20 up? I have to leave in 10 minutes because she is only five miles away. But she is at Park Place. It is not that far. MT (01:49:09): It is hard, but... Well, you probably will not run into traffic at this point. SM (01:49:15): Well, I back to 9A and just go back that way. MT (01:49:17): You can just turn on 96th Street. Is that- SM (01:49:24): Yeah, I got my instructions. It is pretty easy once you get back on 9A. MT (01:49:28): So, you are going downtown, right? SM (01:49:28): Yeah. MT (01:49:31): On the West Side Highway, basically. SM (01:49:33): Yeah. She is on 34th, and I do not know... She is at Two Park Place. MT (01:49:38): Well, Park Place is all the way downtown. But what you will do is just, you can get on the highway right here at 96th Street. SM (01:49:47): Yeah. She said there is a place to park right across the street. MT (01:49:49): Oh, good. SM (01:49:57): I guess... I have got three more pages here. But in your own words, can you define female leadership? How does it differ from male leadership, in your opinion? The third part of this is, do women want to be treated as equals to men by securing the qualities that men have in order to succeed? A lot of people, doctors have said, "Well, if they take on the characteristics of men, they will die as early as men do." MT (01:50:25): Or have nothing to offer the world in terms of a different style of being. I would say that, in my experience, women's organizations have are very different. I spent from (19)72 to (19)91... So, what is that? Almost two decades at Ms. It was non-hierarchical in many, many ways, in many frustrating ways for some people, for some things. But it was also empowering because if you wanted to take something on, you took it on. There is a different model of leadership. And it still exists. I can see it in terms of... I just finished doing a lot of interviews for the National Council for Research on Women, which did a conference and now is doing a follow-up report on the concrete ceiling, they call it, that Black women reach at the top of corporations. The women in these corporations talk about a very different style of leadership that women have in the corporations, which it is like the toughest thing you can think of because that is the most structured kind of thing, but a kind of difference, inclusiveness. There are so many different... It is so interesting, the kinds of differences they have identified. Some of them work to women's disadvantage; some to their advantage. That leadership thing, I think, works to advantage. Women are becoming very valuable to corporations that are trying for a global market because they are used to negotiating and in different ways. But also, women do not hook on to mentors in the way that men do. Men are very comfortable using their relationships to advance, and women want relationships with much more trust and sort of much deeper things. It is fascinating. I mean, I think there are lots of gender differences, and I do not think we would want to just emulate men. But I think it is a question. I think when women got into positions of leadership in a situation where men were the norm, that is when things like Queen Bees would emerge because that is how you could function. But I also think if women are at a critical mass, then there is a chance of changing the culture. SM (01:53:34): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end? What was the watershed moment? MT (01:53:41): Well, for me, it was like the mid (19)60s. As I said, it was the Civil Rights Movement before even the anti-war movement was the big important... SM (01:53:55): I am running at a time here even on this. MT (01:53:59): You can always follow- up with stuff on an email, if you want, too, if there is something you need to fill in. SM (01:54:02): I got time for one more question. MT (01:54:02): Yeah. [inaudible]. SM (01:54:02): [inaudible] here. (19)60s, when did it end, in your opinion? MT (01:54:20): I do not know. I never sort of had that sense of things ending and beginning, I think, because I was involved with Ms. and I just saw things. But I guess the (19)60s for me and for the women's movement carried on through (19)70s because there were things like the Houston Conference, and I guess you would have to say Reagan. I mean, you would have to say that and the fact that Ted Kennedy's appeal did not make it in terms of... All sorts of things. SM (01:54:56): How important role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, in your opinion? MT (01:54:56): I think more important than setting up the... Simone Bella, for instance, organized the whole West Side in terms of peace movement. I think more in setting up the atmosphere where being anti-war was a respectable position. With Women's Strike for Peace, and those were... The whole Mother's Movement Against Strontium-90 and stuff like that that that represented. I think they were very important. But I think that the impetus that ended the war was the draft, and that certainly affected men more than women. SM (01:55:49): Let us see here. I guess I will end my last question. Hope we get enough time to do this. Question about due the divisions a tremendous division that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between Black and white, sometimes male and female, gay and straight, certainly the tremendous divisions over the war in Vietnam, those who served those who did not, those who were against the war and for the war, do you think this boomer generation is going to go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healed? MT (01:56:26): I do not think- SM (01:56:29): Due to the tremendous divisiveness that took place at the time, and do you think this is an issue and it is playing a part in the divisiveness that we are seeing in our society today, the tremendous divisions and the-the culture wars that we are seeing over and over again where we cannot seem to get over the (19)60s? MT (01:56:54): Well, I think that the culture wars were manipulated by the right. I think the issues that the right pulled, certainly the women's issues that they pulled to organize around, a lot of that was a gift to the right of issues that it could organize around. I am not sure that those were organically grew on their own. I think they were manipulated. But in terms of larger issues, I think there is a whole different feeling about soldiers that are in Iraq and in Afghanistan than there ever was about soldiers that were in Vietnam to the discredit, I suppose, of the anti-war movement back in the (19)60s, that you did not have a lot of sympathy for the people fighting it, which I think is completely different now. I mean, you clearly have an understanding that whether you are anti-war, whether you are a pacifist or not, that it is not the soldiers that are the problem; it is the policy. I think there is that kind of shift in mentality. I do not think the (19)60s anti-war, kind of anti-government... I mean, there is still mistrust of government, God knows. But I mean, I think that has changed with time. SM (01:58:19): So, you do not see healing as a problem within this generation of 70 million due to these tremendous divisions when they were evolving as adults? MT (01:58:19): Who? The boomer- SM (01:58:19): The boomer generation. MT (01:58:19): ...kind of generation? SM (01:58:19): Yeah, the boomers. MT (01:58:49): I do not know. I have lived so much of my life in New York and in one kind of protected, in a way, from a culture that might get mad at me. I go back to the Houston Conference and state meetings that we went to. It was the first time I had ever seen these hordes of right-wing people who did not like me. SM (01:59:14): Yeah. I know Dan Scrubs, when he wrote the book To Heal a Nation, the book on the building of the wall, the goal was mostly to heal the veterans and the lost loved ones and all the Vietnam veterans, but hopefully to begin healing the nation from the divisions of that war. I do not know what role the wall has played in the whole nation, whether it has helped the Vietnam community because none of [inaudible] going to totally heal. But is it possible to yield from such divisions that... MT (01:59:54): Yeah, I think they become less important. I mean, except as things that have modeled your thinking. But I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Especially through the... I mean, is it possible for one generation to heal? Maybe not entirely, but certainly through the generations, there is evolution. SM (02:00:17): I am about... MT (02:00:19): You are past it. I mean now, it is like past tense. But as I said, if you feel like... [End of Interview] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Thom Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thom, Mary ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 120:26 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d1eb842ea99c4ee5ac96f35d04667b7e.jpg 42154d4ef792ddbc8f4013acba43ecbf https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1af3a49383c69edca75990b94228125e.mp3 5e18c007cc882e568ba1fb81658b0120 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mildred (Mit) Joyner Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 93:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil rights movement; voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; retirement; activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; \r\nMillion Man March\r\n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4993,"3":{"1":0},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Civil Rights Movement; Voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; Retirement; Activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; Million Man March; Senator Edmund Muskie; Civil War Generation; Confederate Flag; Generation Gap; WWII; Joseph L. Galloway; Trust.<br /><br /></span> Subject LCSH Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mit Joyner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: Not dated --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) MJ (00:00:00): [inaudible]. SM (00:00:07): First, I want to take this opportunity and thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer some questions. As a reminder, the reason why I am doing this project is to do oral history interviews of approximately, hopefully, between two and 300 different people. Some people are very well known in history. Some people are not known. But the goal is to try to combine two things with each of these interviews. Number one, the personal experiences of these individuals that I am interviewing, and also as they reflect on the history of this year and the impact of the boomer generation on AmeriCorps in the last 30 years. And I guess the first question I really want to go into is recently, probably the last couple years, we have heard a lot of commentary, a lot of criticism of attacks on the boomer generation, the generation of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the generation that a lot of people historically linked to the ending of the Vietnam War, the involvement in civil rights, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, Latino movement, as many movements as possible. But the criticism is pretty central on the whole generation as to the reasons that the breakdown of America is being blamed on them. So what I am trying to get from each of the interviewees, and that is the first question I want to ask you, what are your thoughts when you hear people who will generalize about the boomer generation as the reason why we have problems in America today, like the breakup of the family, the increase of drugs, a lot of the issues, and they all seem to go right back to the time when boomers were in their youth? And of course, these boomers are categorized as people born between 1946 and 1964. So your thoughts on these generalizations that are oftentimes leveled at a whole generation? MJ (00:01:51): Well, basically, generalizations to me are just that, generalizations. I thought that the (19)60s and the (19)70s brought with it its own empowerment and empowerment to do different things. And some of those things were things that people in our society now would classify as negative things. But on the whole, it really was a positive time because it brought about the empowerment of each group feeling good about their own particular culture. And so for the very first time, we were dealing with more of a strength perspective. And I know at that particular time, I was in high school... started school in the (19)50s and then going all the way through college. And it was not until I went to Central State University that I really saw the empowerment of that movement. And sure, we were going through our own, which White says, our own conversion experience. And by that, what White says is that you go through five stages, and there was a negro to black conversion experience where it was a pre-encounter stage where you just did things because people told you how to do them. And then it kind of moved into an encounter stage where you realized that there was no... The equity in our society only existed for a few. And the immersion stage, which I think our race went through collectively from the (19)60s to the (19)70s, was to immerse yourself about and learn about your race. And that was at the exclusion of everything else. And then came out your immersion stage where people were really stronger in our society. And the fourth stage is the internalization stage, where you internalize those good values and throw away those bad values that you learned. And then obviously, the fifth stage is your internalization commitment stage. Well, as a race of people went through this, there were a lot of negative things that occurred during the immersion stage. There was burning of bras, the burning of draft things, drugs, free life and all that. But I think what emerged was a much stronger group of people. So when people say that to me about, "Look what your generation brought," it brought some negative things, but that was necessary in order to move to a stronger group of people. And so everything has a yin and a yang. And so the yin and the yang of that was, yes, it brought about a freer society, but I would rather have freedom than to have the rigid society that we were experiencing before World War II. SM (00:04:28): Let me just... [inaudible] the next question. If you were to look at again from your own personal perspective, your own metaphor... A lot of the reasons why we are doing this is everybody has their own metaphor, and not to be pre-judgmental of any person's beliefs. How would you categorize this generation right now in 1997 in terms of its overall impact on America? MJ (00:04:57): It is a generation that is trying to find its people, trying to find out what are the values that are collectively right for our nation. I think they are a generation of triers. And with people who have... probably the first group of people who have major obstacles that are outside race, gender, and class, but technology and access to power through money. And so I think they are trying to build a nation that is equal for all people, but there is just so many obstacles that are in young people's ways. SM (00:05:41): ... thing is when you look at today's boomers, they are the parents of today's college students, the person who works with college student’s day in and day out, and of course you teach students. Do you think, from your own personal experiences, that the boomer parents have really shared the experiences of their youth with today's college students? Because what we see is only 18 percent of today's college students, according to a Chronicle of Higher Education poll who have an interest in politics, we see a low numbers of young people voting. Their parents do not vote. And here it was during that generation that the fight was for the right to vote. What impact are boomers having on today's college students, not just college students because half the people do not go to college, but on today's youth? MJ (00:06:26): Again, I can only speak about this from my perspective, but because I am a believer of what people fought in the civil rights movement for us, we are voters in our family, and my kids vote. When it is voting day, my husband and I just say, "It is voting day, and all of you go to the booths and vote. We do not care what you vote." But we ask them a little bit about, the night before, what about the candidates and why they are making the choices that they do. We are a very political family with my husband's job in terms of being on the federal bench. And the only way he was able to get there was through people voting him on the ballot when he was getting on the county bench. So I think in our family system, we have a very political family. And again, I believe that apples do not fall far from the tree. And so I do not know if it is today's boomers who are not teaching kids to go to the ballot box, but I can say in my family, it was very important for my father that I go, and I do not miss a chance, even when it is awful years, and there is really not that much as people say to vote for. And I think I am giving that value to my children, and I would hope that they would carry it on. I think they understand that one vote does count, and we often show them and analyze the next day in the paper of how many people lost the school race just based on the fact that such very few people voted. And we are also trying to teach them the power of the vote, that if they really wanted to run for something, and they were able to get their contemporaries to vote for them, most likely because of the apathy that is in our country right now, that they could probably win the ballot. So we preach that. SM (00:08:10): Would you say though, that within your personal experience then, this has been a very important part of your life? You share the experiences to transfer this importance of the vote, being involved as a citizen in this country. But as you look at the students that you teach, your everyday dealings with today's college students, and even your peers who are boomers, are they failing in this area? Not you personally, but are they failing? MJ (00:08:34): I think so. I think a lot of people in our society find it too easy to switch about something and not really bring change. Even here in the social work department, we try to teach the value of voting. That is because that is a philosophy that we hold here. So I will say to my students, "Bring back your little voting ticket and show us that you voted, and we will give you a test for that," to encourage people to... And we talk about the platform because social work is made up of those individuals who we have a responsibility to speak for who are powerless. So it is real hard for me to talk about my colleagues because most of my colleagues that are involved... Let me turn this off. Most of my colleagues that are involved with that decision... In social work, we teach voting. And so most of my colleagues are social workers. So most of the time... And it would be interesting to do a study of how many social workers really do vote, but because our job is to, and part of our code of ethics is to, speak out on people who are not able to speak out from themselves due to lack of wealth or what their life circumstance is, the whole profession teaches a commitment of the ballot box. And so being social workers have to be involved because we speak for the poor. I mean, that is part of our code of ethics. SM (00:09:59): If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I say that we know that within the boomers, which is from (19)46 to (19)64, there is intergenerational differences. Like boomers who were born towards 64 have a hard time, I believe, personally, in terms of relating with those born (19)46, say, to (19)56. Could you give us some characteristics, some adjectives to describe the boomers, the positive qualities of the boomers and some of the negative qualities? MJ (00:10:29): Some of the positive ones, qualities of a boomer, is commitment, the ability to move up the system. Most people are doing better than their parents. Materialistic. That can be an asset and a liability. Caring. Instant need for gratification. Again, an asset or a liability. And I guess the one that I really like is that they are transcendent. They have the ability to go beyond what is expected. And so the negatives of that are sometimes they are workaholics or they have some kind of addictive part of their personality due to the needs of to show out and be the best. And I think their transcending character sometimes has caused health problems, really not able to enjoy family the way they wanted to. SM (00:11:37): If you look at some of the ideas that young people had in that time... Say for example, picture yourself on a college campus, whether it be a predominantly African American campus or a white campus of the mid to late (19)60s and early (19)70s. There seemed to be a sense of empowerment among young people that we are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. We are the most unique generation in American history. We are not going to stand for the status quo. There is something wrong in this nation, and we are going to right it. And then as these boomers got older, Vietnam War ended, civil rights is still an ongoing issue, but you did not see the Dr. Kings out there like we used to have. As boomers went into their (19)70s and then into the (19)80s and now into the mid to late (19)90s here, have they kept those ideals or how would you rate this generation? MJ (00:12:45): Well, I would give it about a 95. I think most people are successful. They are doing better than they ever thought so. Now, what does better mean? Does better mean they are doing better economically? Yes. Has that caused them to work more and be more self-centered? Yes. Have they changed their vision? Yes. Have they given in to establishment? Yes. I think that the boomers have learned that there are certain things that are status quo and that the way to change the system, what we thought before was just to change that system through not participating or just demanding a change, we now realize that you have to work within the system to get change. So I think their vision has changed. They have become more proactive rather than reactive. And I do not really write a lot of them off because I know a lot of people that I went to Howard University with and Central State University that are tops in their field. And they would have never been able to have that prior to the (19)60s or the (19)70s. But their love for politics is not which we thought it was, but back then, a lot of people did not participate in politics anyway. I mean now they are at least voting. But I mean, I just look at where they have come, and I worry about that for my own children because I do not really think that they will ever have a level of success, this generation, that our generation was privileged to have. And so I feel this generation is going to have to learn how to settle for less. We all have our own homes, two and three cars, several people have summer homes. What happens to this generation? Because I think they kind of bottomed out. I mean, I think that they go back to wanting less. The charge card is starting to own them. And so I worry about that, but I think I would give them a 95. SM (00:14:46): When you say 95, though, certainly you are thinking about your metaphor, the people that you know, but it is also a known fact that when Tim Penny was on our campus, he said one of the biggest failures of the boomers was the fact that they do not know how to save, that the average savings account for a 50-year-old is less than $10,000. They may have a home, but they see marriages were late. Kids were raised late. They are putting kids through college up to 60. So we are talking about people that are doing well, but they actually have nothing in the bank. They are like three payments away from being in bankruptcy almost. So we are dealing with a lot of concerns. Now, that is just from a political standpoint, but it is- MJ (00:15:31): Again, but that is two cultures that I think clash. That is the culture of my parents who believe that you have to have money in the bank to save. And then there is the culture of the boomers who spend what they get, acquire assets, and can download those assets. So a lot of times savings, because you watch banks just kind of eat up your money and play games with your money... And there is also the need. I said instant gratification is something that I think boomers have. There is a need to go on a vacation rather than to save every penny you have for the next 20 years because a lot of us have watched our parents die at a young age without ever getting the things that they worked for. And so I think you see two cultures that clash a lot, the clash of our parents' culture, who you save things, and you do not have anything until you can pay for it. And then it is this that has learned how to use the market of credit. And it is probably this generation's living longer than our parents' generation because we do not work as hard, or at least at times we work very hard, but we give ourselves the rewards for it. And so that may mean debt for some people, but our generations learned the system of how to pay off a debt, bankruptcy. And that is why you have more debt. SM (00:16:51): Would you say that some boomers, like some parents live toward retirement, the World War II generation, they look forward to retirement, that boomers oftentimes may not believe they will even survive to retirement? Do you think there is some perception there? MJ (00:17:04): Or they choose not to retire. I think we realize that retirement... A lot of us are workaholics and retirement brings with it some kind of settlement of having to realize that. It also does not give us the dollars to live the lifestyle that you want. And it sure does say that you are not worthy. I mean, in American society, unless you are working, you are really not a worthy person. And there is too much stats to read that Alzheimer's and people forgetfulness and all that occurs once one person retires. So I think there is a fear of retirement, not just because of the economics, but because of the vitality that the boomers always see themselves as. SM (00:17:45): Two basic issues are central to the lives of boomers. We know statistically that only about 15 percent of the young people, when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, were involved in any kind of activism. But I have always been of the perception that even the 85 percent who were not involved were subconsciously affected by that period and may have been late bloomers in terms of getting involved with these kinds of issues in their everyday lives. These two issues, of course, being the Vietnam War and civil rights. Certainly the women's movement and a lot of the movements took place. But when you think of this period, you think of the activism in those two areas. In your own opinion, do you believe that the students on college campuses... Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Was it because of the protests on college campuses, or was it something else? MJ (00:18:38): I think it is because the America was losing, and there was a shame because we were losing. And I think that we felt that for a long period of time that we would have the ability to win that war. And when we realized that there was no way that we could win that war, we pulled out and brought our boys back home. I think the idea of finally coming to terms with the fact that we were losing was brought on by a lot of the protests on college campuses because we realized we were just sending people over there and they were dying for what? And if we were winning, we would have probably had a different feeling about it. But just looking at the many people that I knew that went to Vietnam, for what? It was a country that had had its own way of fighting a war through underground, of which our men had no knowledge about. And we really did not have an understanding of why we were there. So I think that college campuses brought out that, and the citizen who had never sent their child or daughter to the walls of college began to buy into what college students were saying. It is like, show me the money, so to speak. If we are winning, we will stay there. If we are not, then let us pull out. And basically, I think to the existence today, that is how we participate in all of these wars that are throughout the United States. If we can go in and show that we have force and get people to listen to us, we go. If we do not, we will not. SM (00:20:08): ...you respond to people who will say that... I have interviewed so many people on this project so far that there is diverse opinions. But that we all know who went to war. We all know that the college students were basically getting pardoned out of the war because their parents were rich and they had ways of getting out, whereas the inner city kids, people who were from poor backgrounds, both white and black and all colors could not do that. As one person told me, they were afraid to die. And that is the bottom line. And of course, they were involved in issues like the draft. And when that battle was won, then the whole movement ended. And then another person would say, "Well, really, when body bags kept coming home and middle America saw their sons and daughters dying, when middle America decided it should end, that is when the war really came to an end." So let us not give a lot of credit to these young college students who are basically naive. What are your thoughts on those kinds of diverse opinions? MJ (00:21:08): I think the system was set up, and until this day is still set up, for people to go into the armed forces who do not have money. That happens to be people of color or whites who are poor. I mean, the Army, Navy, that is the catch-all for all the people that are poor, a way to get away from your high school. And so it was not a surprise that most people who went to Vietnam were those people who could not afford to go to college. I think, however, that America seeing the body bags come home is sure one of the reasons why the war stopped, but they were body bags of poor people. I do not think, however, that wealthy people were trying to do anything but protect their sons and daughters, and poor people tried to do the same thing. No matter what, you would try. I mean, there were times when mothers were sending their kids to Canada, where parents were trying to get their kids in school. So everybody. I know my brother... You get that number that people got, and you are going to school whether you want to go or not. So everybody. And that to me is just, whether you have money or you do not, you try to protect your own because nobody wants to see their child going off to war. Whereas before, going off to the armed services as an officer was a great thing, and most wealthy people did that. They would go off into Quantico and go to these various little military bases and become an officer. But at that particular time, no matter what you were, and there were a lot of officers who were wealthy, that went off in body bags as well. So I do not think we were as sophisticated to say it was these against those. It just so happened that the bottom got trapped because the system was set up that way. SM (00:22:59): How was it when you were a student at Central State as an undergrad, now? Were the students of Central State protesting against the Vietnam War, or was Central State more into the civil rights issues? How was that? MJ (00:23:13): It was more the civil rights issues because although a lot of people say politically, a lot of people were not involved in the politics at that time because the church was the backbone of the politics, the African American church. I think what African Americans went through was the violent versus the nonviolent movement. There was the Martin Luther King followers, and then there was the Malcolm X followers. And I mean, had we been sophisticated as we are now, we would have probably known both men contributed a lot, and we did not have to make those choices. But one, the choice that you were in is that if you were a Martin Luther King follower, then you were church-going and you believed in God. But if you were a Malcolm X follower, you were an atheist or you did not believe in God. And really that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had- Really, that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had nothing to do with war. It was whether you believed in the violent or the non-violent movement, which I look back on today as a lot of regret. Because I probably would have learned a lot more about the philosophies of Malcolm X, and probably would have backed a lot of them. But because, from your family system, that was seen as something that was way outside, you just did not look at it as seriously. You tried to get into the Martin Luther King. And it was not until Martin Luther King was assassinated that I think African Americans totally went with the philosophy of Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party. And Muslims began to be the thing that everybody saw a little bit more positiveness of, because they really were helping in the community. SM (00:24:53): The other issue, of course, is again, you gets right into the issue of civil rights, and the Boomers involvement. Keep in mind, in the summer of (19)64, which was within the Freedom Summer, Boomers, that is the end group of the Boomer generation of (19)60, so 46. We are talking about the oldest person would have been 18. MJ (00:25:13): Mm-hmm. SM (00:25:14): And of course, most of the people that went down there were already in college, were 19, 20, 21', 22, or in their mid-20s, late-20s. (00:25:20): The question I am trying to ask all Boomers, or people involved in this project is, how important were the boomers with respect to the Civil Rights Movement? MJ (00:25:29): They were the Civil Rights Movement. If you look at any of the, Eye on the Prize series, you see those young people. NAACP at that particular time was doing a lot of recruiting. And a lot of people were involved in the Mississippi Summer Project, March on Washington, and the Church was giving the backbone of that. And there was a lot of things going on, what group you really wanted to follow. But basically the NAACP, Adam Clayton Powell, all of those individuals, were pulling a lot of people in. And they were young people. They were people in your high schools. NAACP had branches within the high school. And they had these youth organizations where you would participate in the NAACP from a youth perspective. So, it was the young people. SM (00:26:24): Critics, who will say that, "Well, wait a minute. The Boomers just latched onto this. They were followers. They were not early leaders." Because in [inaudible] Freedom Summer had already happened. Now the march in Washington was (19)63. The oldest Boomer would have been 17 years old. MJ (00:26:37): Mm-hmm. SM (00:26:38): You do not buy that argument, then- MJ (00:26:40): No. SM (00:26:40): ...that they were not- MJ (00:26:44): No. I think they really were the backbone. And still to this day, I think the Boomers still, I think that is why the Million Man March was so successful, because it was the Boomers reclaiming that time, again, going back. I still see that need to organize, the need to speak out as a collective group that really came out of the March on Washington. That was such an empowering thing to watch, or to listen to, and how to recreate that. And I think that is why the Million Man March was successful. We will see if the March for the Women is just as successful. But if you notice, it is generally, who attended the Million Man March were basically people of color, coming together to speak as a force. I do think it was successful. And again, I have to state that most of these experiences that I am speaking from are from an African American perspective. SM (00:27:37): Mm-hmm. MJ (00:27:37): And it is very hard for me to look at it from a female perspective, or very hard for me to look at it from a White perspective, which may be different. My experience was not that. I was quite active, even in my own college. And at that particular time, I was not in college, I was in high school. But my father and mother were very active in the movement, and very active in Civil Rights people. We had the coffee klatches in our house. And people would come and talk. And many, many times there were White people that would come to the house. They were friends, and people like that. And voting was talked about in our house. So, I can only talk about it from that perspective. Now, if I was Mit Joyner, and I was a White woman, I do not know how I would be talking about it, or whether it would have been a topic of conversation. I lived in an integrated neighborhood. My father owned his own electrical contracting company and had a lot of problems because he was African American, and owned his own company. And the union did not really want him at first. And then, they wanted him because they wanted to contain him. So, those things were talked about a lot, which brought my transcendence out. SM (00:28:43): That is good. Thank you. It is just about the end of this side. Have you changed your opinion at all over the last 25 years, towards the Boomers. When you were young, looked at the Boomer generation, and now you are looking at them in 1997, have you been consistent in your opinions toward them? Or have you changed somewhat? MJ (00:29:05): Well, I have changed in terms of some of the workaholic part of a Boomer, the need for work, the need to have more money. I do not think that is as important. I think people that were poor can be very happy. Somewhere, we believe that poor people cannot be happy, but they can be. I believe that the healthcare is more important than what you can give your kids. If you can give your kids yourself versus all of these things that you leave them in a will, probably leaving them yourself is a better asset. So yeah, I have changed. I have changed into not having to worry about everybody, and worrying about myself. SM (00:29:52): Yeah. That is a very important commentary. MJ (00:29:58): [inaudible] Yeah. Well, just worrying about everybody, to worrying about myself. I think, at that time, the Civil Rights, we worried about our entire race, and moving them along, and making sure that everybody had. African Americans are still member people, that we worry about every member within our family system, and everybody within our extended family, and everybody within our community or on a street. And that can kill you. You have to learn how to worry about yourself, and to acknowledge other people, but people have the right to make choices. And some people are on this path of self-destructiveness, and there is not too much you can do to stop it. SM (00:30:43): I want you to respond to this that I mentioned earlier, about a quality that Boomers looked at themselves as, and that is they are the most unique generation in America history. MJ (00:30:51): Mm-hmm. SM (00:30:52): Now, that is quite a statement. MJ (00:30:52): Mm-hmm. SM (00:30:54): But a lot of them believe that. Do you think, in your own opinion, that the Boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history? MJ (00:31:01): No. No. If I look at it in terms of African Americans, I often look at the slaves that came over from another country, and started us all over again. The strength that it had to take to learn a different language, to learn how to eat different food, to be free, and then be enslaved for no other reason, just because of the color your skin, and to fight to get out of that. I think that, for African Americans, is probably the strongest generation that we have. Because they were people with nothing. And they fought for freedom. When you read the life of Frederick Douglass, and you look at, he was a slave, was not allowed to read, and became a candidate for Vice President of the United States. That just is remarkable to me. Remarkable. SM (00:31:58): Okay. I am going to go into another section here. One of the things that I am trying to be involved with this project is the concept of healing. I made many visits to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington. I tried to get a grasp and an ambience and a feel for what happened with the wall, which was supposed to be geared toward healing the Vietnam veterans, their families, their loved ones, and certainly trying to help the nation to heal because of those times. But every time I go down there, I see probably a lot of healing, but I see still a lot of tremendous division still, over those who were against the war, the way they were treated when they came home, middle America and how they treated us, and the perception of being baby killers, and all those kinds of things that the media had portrayed against the Vietnam veteran, which was really 3 million people who served in Vietnam. But do you feel, in 1997, irrespective of the wall, which was very important for our generation, for America, that we have healed, that we have healed from those tremendous divisions of that time, those who were for and against the war, the Civil Rights Movement in terms of being out in the streets. A lot of people will say that, part of the problems of the Civil Rights Movement was the riots that developed because of it. No one was ever satisfied with anything. The divisions in America continue today. Again, going right back there, could you concept on how important you feel dealing with the issue of healing is in America, today, on these issues that divided the nation back in the (19)60s and (19)70s? MJ (00:33:40): I believe that we heal every time there is a crisis. I think, when you look at America as a family, and we fight amongst ourselves, and there is division amongst ourselves, but I think when you come up against larger issues, I think, America has healed. And I think, in healing, it gives people the right to speak out about the differences. Some are stuck in a phase where they cannot move to the next phase. And what I mean by that is that some will always be upset and always be into a militant stance. But part of healing is accepting that person, and accepting their position, and respecting that. Healing is not wanting everybody to think like me and be like me and not to be upset with me. Healing is being able to accept the difference that is here in our society. And over the war, there are a lot of different opinions about that. There are those that went, those that stayed, those that tried to get out of it. And they all have strong reasons about why they made those choices, back then. And the healing part of that is just accepting that. And I think, the only time when that comes up is, again, for political reasons. And so therefore, I throw that out. But I think, on a whole, we know that there were draft dodgers. And I do not have any problems with them. And I also know I have friends that went over there and fought, and I have no problems with that. It was a time for people to make choices and to live up to whatever those consequences brought. And so, I think we have lived up to that. And every time I see a natural catastrophe, when we had the Gulf War, I saw a more cohesive group, that I have seen before. SM (00:35:46): I am going to give you a scenario, and experience the follow-up to this question. MJ (00:35:47): Mm-hmm. SM (00:35:47): And that is, about five years ago, we took students to Washington, a small group of our Westchester students. And we had a chance to meet Senator Muskie. And I did not realize he had just gotten out of the hospital, and he was not feeling that great. But halfway through our two-hour conversation with him, we started talking about 1968 and the convention, and so forth. And as a Boomer, I had to reveal something that I did not really want to reveal, but I wanted to. And that is that a lot of Boomers, including myself, have a problem with authority. Wherever I have worked, it is not that you do not respect the people you work for, but there is a lack of trust in anybody in positions of power and responsibility. And I know many other Boomers that have gone on to be very successful in life, but still have that quality within them, no matter where they have gone, because of what was transpiring during that timeframe. And what I was trying to get at was, to have him respond to our students about his feelings about the division of American in 1968. And when I asked him the question and gave him the description of some of the lack of trust that I still had, he did not respond immediately. Tears came to his eyes. He reflected. And then, he said, "We have not healed as a nation since the Civil War." MJ (00:37:05): Mm-hmm. SM (00:37:07): And I thought he was going to talk about Vietnam, and what he ended up doing here. That made me think. This is one of the main reasons why I am working on this project is, he said, "The Civil War generation went to their graves with bitterness toward the other side, despite all the Civil War ceremonies toward healing, between north and south. The hundreds of thousands who died, the families, the generations of families who were never to be raised, almost an entire generation of men wiped out. For what?" And the thing is, what he was saying was that, I thought he was referring, and of course, I never really was able to go back to ask because he had died. But the question is, was he referring to the fact that this generation, the Boomers, are facing the same trauma that the Civil War generation, that they are going to be going to their graves with still these inner, whether it be subconscious or conscious, bitterness toward people who were different than them, who had different ideas, no efforts being made to bring people together to try to understand each other more, because the times were tough times. Your thoughts on Senator Muskie's thoughts there, about the Civil War, and the generation of the Vietnam War, and should we, as a generation, we cannot heal everyone within a generation of 60 plus million, but should efforts be made to try to bring people together toward a better understanding of those times, so that what Senator Muskie was saying about the Civil War people going to their grave with this bitterness and hatred, and then transferring that to their sons and daughters, just your thoughts on that. MJ (00:38:39): Well, first of all, when I say America has healed, I meant it in terms of looking at it from a war perspective. I think America is really divided around race and culture. And I think and feel that, again, being African American, a lot of it is because people want you to forget your history. And whether or not retribution bills need to be paid or whatever, perhaps maybe that same public apology to African Americans for bringing them over here as slaves and keeping them enslaved for so long, is something that our nation needs to do, or at least to look at, to address. Because I do believe that most African Americans feel as though the system is really against them, or that there is some unknown thing holding them back. Had we been brought over here, even as indentured slaves, and allowed to work that off, as some of our ancestors were, we would have the old money. And we would be far along where we are today. We would be able to help our own kids in our own cities. And I think there is a lot of anger about that. And it is because America is so inconsistent. And it is still inconsistent in the way it punishes people. There are more African Americans every day placed in jails. And it is so blatant. And so, there is a lot of anger as it relates to race. Because no matter how wealthy I become, I will still be African American, and my kids may be driving a car, and the police officers pull them off because they think they do not have the right to drive the car because they are a person of color. I still have to teach my kids, in 1997, survival techniques of being an African American. And it should not be that way. And when you say that to White America, they feel as though it is untrue. People have dismissed that. "Oh, that is not true," or, "You do not really need to do that." And they think that, "Oh. We do not treat people like that." So, that anger is still there. And as it relates to the Civil War, the only thing that I feel about that is that White America often states in history classes that there has been no war fought in America. And so you ask, "What is the Civil War?" But I have problems with individuals who feel as though the south is all bad, but it is not. There are many, many good people. But I think the Confederate flag issue, and a lot of other issues, that to me, poke fun at people of color. We have not yet really talked about why a Confederate flag sends chills up and down my spot. And yet, I know often people feel as though that was their first flag, and they should fly it for other reasons. It should not always invoke the issues. But there is a little isms in it. And we have to come to understand that. And still, when you read in 1997 that there are places in the South, that just recently I read about, that has two principals, a White principal and a Black principal. There is still a lot of stuff divided on race. And it may make people uncomfortable. It may make people have to look at themselves. But until we start talking about the real race issues in America, I do not ever think we can move forward in that. And that is kind of a doom-er. But teaching race relations, that is the one beautiful thing I love about my course, is just to go over history again, and get people to see this history in a template, almost like when you look at the body, you put the blood on top. And [inaudible] you put the four cultures on top, and look at where they were, I understand why White Anglo-Saxon Protestants did what they did. Because they came from England and they wanted to create a system for themselves where they were not placed in a class system. They wanted to be able to have entrance into every level. And if you worked hard, you should move up. And the more money you have, you moved up. I understand that. But they did that at the expense of other people. And they exclude other people out. They have to also recognize that. SM (00:42:50): Could you talk about the generation gap? One of the things that was very common, one of the terms of that period, was that there was a generation gap between the Boomers and World War II generation. MJ (00:43:02): Mm-hmm. SM (00:43:03): And of course, I am certain there is generation gaps in every generation, in between Boomers and Generation Xers, today. Can you reflect on your own metaphor, your life back then, the differences between the generations, the generation gap? And then comment today on boomers and their kids. MJ (00:43:21): Yeah. I think my parents' generation was more of the depreciated character. You just did things because that is the way it was. And they did not question as much. Not to say that was wrong. That was their own survival technique. And they were all coming over. And the (19)50s were the first generation after Brown versus Board of Education, that was allowing integration. that was a win-win for them. We questioned that. "Why cannot we go into every store? Why cannot we sit in every movie seat?" They were in the movies. I am not saying that that was wrong, but I think our generation just tended to question more, and to push the system, and to try to get the system into a little bit more social consistency, and throw out a lot of the injustices that you could see. Why is it that we all have to wash the floors? "I do not want to wash floors. Why cannot I go to college?" All of those questions. I think we just questioned on top of it, and the gap really was a generation of people that, even when they were ill, they kept it to themselves. And that was my father and mother's generation. No matter whatever happened, or how dismayed they were with anybody, they kept it to themselves. Whereas our generation was one who would tell everybody. And that was, to me, the gap. Where I see kids today is, they tell everyone, but it is probably, and again, this is a Boomer quote, this is probably my kids would kill, with a lack of respect, or at least what I see as a lack of respect. I see this generation having no problems telling anybody anything that is on their mind, even at the expense of that other person not being heard. Now, history will obviously play that out, and I will not be here to be able to read it. But I just think the scary part about this group that is graduating right now is, it is reverence sometimes for tradition. Now, that may be good. But... SM (00:45:48): Is that what a lot of the Boomers were doing, though? MJ (00:45:52): Yeah. Well, yeah, that is why I say- SM (00:45:53): They were against the IBM mentality, the lookalike. MJ (00:45:57): It may well be good. No. That is not what the Boomers were doing. Because, yeah, we had a no reverence, but we realized that you had to get within that system. This group really feels as though they can do anything independent of a system. Now, perhaps they can. But I also see this group as one that financially has a lot to lose. We raised our kids in a way that they have their own rooms. A lot of them drive their own cars. A lot of them have no idea how to survive without anything. And that is the scary thing. We had less. We came from poor families. We knew how to cook bean soup, and eat that all week. Some people knew how to, you do not have any money to pay the rent, so this is what you pay first. We had all of that. You learned something from being poor. This generation does not have that experience. They are maxing themselves out on credit cards, whereas we have credit cards, but we also know you can only go up to this debt. Whereas this group, I look at the college students and my own kids, that max out on credit cards before they had their first job. We never had a credit card. SM (00:47:20): [inaudible] have a credit card, then. MJ (00:47:20): Yeah. Now, you have Visa, Master Charge. These kids go to Cancun for spring breaks, and all these places. What is going to happen when the Dow Jones hits bottom? Are they going to be able to survive? These kids want, not Hondas, they want BMWs at an early age. That is where I see the irreverence of the institution, so to speak. They do not really realize, and I do not know if it is going to have negative ramifications, but they do not know how to do without less. And I think that is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back- That is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back home because it is more safe with mom and dad than it is to go into a relationship with someone else. A lot of these kids have big homes with their own bedrooms and every kind of contraption known demand. Why give that up and start over? SM (00:48:25): I want to get into this whole... Since you are really talking about today's young people, hopefully this project is also going to be read by a lot of young people because I want them to understand the parents and the people and the era where their parents came from. The passion. I have a passion for certain issues, and I will go to my grave for this passion. A lot of it was because of the era that I came from, my life experiences. I know you are the same way then. You have passions for certain things. I do not see the passion amongst the young people. I cannot generalize amongst all because there are some that have passion for things. But when they see something wrong, I get a sense that I am not sure how many people want to right it in today's young generation, and I am really concerned about that. I want your thoughts in terms of-of that era and why maybe the parents did not somehow instill this in their young kids that there are certain things that are still wrong with America and this is a generational, after generation, and we have got to get it right. We have got to do better. How people approach it might be different, but still we got a long way to go. And I am not sure if I see that. I am almost seeing, what is the term I want to use, not flashback. What is the term... I do not know if they are really listening and I do not know if they want to listen. MJ (00:49:47): I think this generation's passion is money. I think this generation wants to be in that 2 percent of the population that controls 90 percent of the wealth, and that is by any means necessary. I see this generation as having a passion, but they do not share it with one another because if I share it with somebody else they may get the wealth and I do not. I think everyone is driven in that area. Does the boomer generation try to talk about that? No, because the boomer generation was caught up in that too, with gaining assets. Maybe not to the degree that this generation has that, but the boomer generation, we were all wanting to have our own house, our own car. And we have that now, but now when you look at houses that are being built, they are being built with $425,000 price tags on them. Something is wrong there. When a house that may have cost 20 years ago, 100 to 200,000 is now moving up to four and $600,000. And these young people, and again, I cannot look at this as wrong because when I ride around these neighborhoods, I see young people moving into these homes. And maybe I just have not figured out how they got there, but I think that it is by any means necessary. And I honestly think that there are a lot more people in organized crime from the white-collar perspective than there ever has been in before. When you talk about mafia and things like that, I think there is more of that now than there was earlier years. I just think we have a lot of young people who go to med school who realize, ah, to be a doctor you got to work real hard to make a lot of money, but I do have access to a few dollars and I can get some illegal drugs and sell them to a group of people. And so I think you have a lack of values in that upper class of people than you have ever had before. And that is scary to me because people got into drugs before because they were depressed, cannot have this, cannot have that. But now people are getting into drugs to make a whole lot of money. I think drugs will perhaps ultimately kill this society. SM (00:52:16): What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? I know it might be a little bit early, but as you see it right now, is there a lasting legacy? MJ (00:52:25): Drugs. Drugs is probably one of them. I always watch that movie Panther. We really should have worked harder to keep drugs out of this society. It is killing everyone. In a positive way, however I think it is our drive and our ability to see our wrongs, to go back and say... Everybody was so into drugs at that particular time but people are not into them like that now to that degree, because they realized how much it really killed off a group of people. I think there is not a boomer around that does not know somebody that just has not died of an overdose. And yet we are also driven people and we can right some of those wrongs. I think we have a time to right those wrongs. SM (00:53:17): I think it is too early still to be talking about the boomers and their legacy? MJ (00:53:20): Yeah. SM (00:53:20): Because President Clinton obviously is 50. Joe Galloway said, again, I interviewed him back in November. He is a Vietnam veteran. And he said that... I asked the same thing. Oh, 50, we still got from 50 to 65, you still got plenty of time. He said, "No, when you hit 50 you know you are on your, not your downward trend, but you know that your time is not going to last a whole lot longer. And that is hard for boomers to realize that they are getting older. MJ (00:53:52): Oh, I think there is nothing truer been written. I think boomers have... When we go to 50 year old parties, people try to legitimize that 50 is not old. Yet, I remember looking at my parents when they turned 50, and my God, they are old. I think boomers fear dying. And maybe that is probably one of the things that has made our group so risqué because we never really realized the fact that we can die. And we are not a very religious group of people if you look at us collectively, because most people went against their philosophies of their church because it was part of the establishment. SM (00:54:30): Right. MJ (00:54:30): And I think there is a scare of that, of trying to go out and get that right. More boomers are returning back to church and trying to get their kids involved in church. And when you look at some of the dresses and clothes that we wear, I do think that we are afraid to come to that old thing that we are not going to be here forever. I think a lot of people try to feel that they are just in the middle phase of their life, but in reality, they are at the end of their life when you are watching your friends die. And you watch people come down with illnesses that you never thought could happen to your friends. And it brings a fear, I think, of the boomer. I think that is why spirituality is returning to be in fashion in the United States is because we were such a great group to say, we do not need that. We can survive on our own. And realizing that we have not paid attention to that. Our generation is almost running back to church in droves. And that is why the churches are becoming so economically solvent and they are building so many churches nowadays is because these people who had wealth, who worked real hard every day are now sick or getting sick and realize they had not paid that much attention to their spiritual side of themselves. SM (00:55:52): What I am going to do here is... This is a question dealing with the concept of activism. A lot of the people in the boomer generation were activists in their lives. And do you see any activism at all within today's young people or generation X-ers? MJ (00:56:16): Yeah. Again, you have to take the activism and say what it is. I see the volunteer rate here in America is higher than it has ever been. Activism on school boards, activism on women's healthcare issues there. There is so much activism in the United States, but everybody does it within whatever areas that they are experiencing needs to be corrected. If you put those things together collectively, you would probably be a powerful unit. But I do see a lot of activism. The reason why I think we do not see it in a collective way is because most women and men are working today. You do not have that much time to do it and get the fanfare for it, but you are being active within your company or your workplace and your school, and that is about it. Or active within your church. Before, when mothers could stay home and involve themselves into some particular project that is completely different. But with the workforce now, with almost most women working it has changed to be activism in a different way. I think right now women are trying to learn how, or at least a woman's issue, how to be like men, when far too often we want men to be like us. But women are dying now of heart attacks and that is because they are coming to work and they have a great big job to do with all the pressures and they go home and have a family to run with all the pressures and we just do not know how to relax, and we are not used to anybody taking care of us. And so women are trying to actively learn how to be different and go home and have a dirtier house or go home and have somebody take care of their house. Some women find it very difficult to hire a housekeeper, because this is my house and I should be doing that, yet they are not there. SM (00:58:24): I got a lot of questions. We will go over this one toward the very end. I want to get back to this issue of trust because I think it is really a major issue in America today. I think it is one of the central issues about not only this current generation, but the generation of boomers, is we know because the media has told us, and we live the fact that we do not trust elected leaders because of the experiences of Watergate, the Vietnam War, the McNamara's of the world and Johnson, and how we originally got into the war in Vietnam. Elected officials not being honest with the American public. We are even seeing some semblance of it today in Washington DC because the media is portraying all these money issues dealing with campaign funds, so forth. Everybody is trying to protect their own back. And these are elected leaders. And really nobody in a position of power responsibility, whether it be a minister, a CEO of a corporation, a university president, a politician, congressman, senator, anybody in a position of power and authority is looked about with a lot of trust. And this came about from the (19)60s and the (19)70s and I think it is a lasting quality that is inherent in many boomers. And it is not just something I feel myself, but then I also know that if you cannot trust how can you succeed in life? I would like your thoughts on the issue of trust today, because you even mentioned in your conversation that many African Americans, young people, and boomers do not trust because of the way they were treated since slavery. MJ (01:00:11): Well, again, it goes back to one of my little pet peeves or theories is that with social injustice and social inconsistency causes personal impotence. And by that what I mean is that malls are so inconsistent, we treat people differently and it makes us not be able to react one way or the other. Well, I firmly believe that Americans need to know about one's whole self is unrealistic. There are people in our government that have made mistakes. Now, if we could just apply that and treat everybody the same. I think we are into the business of being into people's personal lives, and we have not learned how to separate out one's personal self and one's professional self. The standards of the professional self is what is important to me and the values of one's professional self. I could care less what you do within your own household. And as we struggled with civil rights and equality of all people, we took that not only regarding the professional self but also the personal self. And I think America is very unrealistic of what we ask for our leaders. I think we do not have enough respect for our own president. And I think we forget to place things on a timeline. I do not believe in sexual harassment, but I realize it was something that happened years ago. I am not going to hold people accountable 20 years ago for some mistakes that they may have made in that area. We are at a different place and we are starting to let politics dictate our common sense. And it is not so much politics or what is right for the country it is just to win a race. And I find both parties as guilty of it, Democrats as well as Republicans, but this mudslinging that we have started to participate as a nation is beginning to destroy us. And I also think that Americans need to know everything about everyone or we are in trouble. And so when you look at things like Watergate, it happened, it is over and we need to move on. Now was Watergate, right? No, because I think it was somebody was trying to manipulate something, so, no, it was not right. In business it is not right. But we as a nation need to move on and we have to put our trust back. How do you gain trust again? Well, you gain trust by looking at a person's public record, not their private record. And I think a lot of decisions are being made over people's private records, not their public ones. SM (01:03:19): I am going to list some names of some individuals that were well known during the (19)60s. And if you could just give a few adjectives or just some thoughts on these individuals from your own personal perspective and secondly how you might feel the boomer generation as a whole, both Black and White might feel toward these people then and now. Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. MJ (01:03:41): Revolutionaries. And I am not going to say revolutionaries that sold out. Just revolutionaries and they were made icons because of their celebrity status. SM (01:03:56): How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? MJ (01:03:59): Risk takers. One who really wanted the establishment to listen to another perspective. SM (01:04:10): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock? MJ (01:04:17): White values. I think he wanted all of us to be raised the same way and came out with an epistle of how to raise a family. If you did not fit in that box you were abnormal. SM (01:04:28): How about the Berrigan Brothers, Catholic priests? MJ (01:04:33): The same thing. Catholicism, a box. SM (01:04:40): Some of the elected leaders of that period. And then we will start with some of the presidents, John Kennedy. MJ (01:04:49): Person who had vision. Had a lot of, as far as a man was seen as a man with a personal side to himself that came from his family system, but I think was there for the good of the nation. SM (01:05:05): Lyndon Johnson. MJ (01:05:07): Good of the nation. Texan, southern person. Good of the nation from the old boys’ network, but the good of the nation. SM (01:05:16): Richard Nixon. MJ (01:05:18): Good of the nation. A man who saw it from a very conservative vantage point. Probably would not be a person that I would ever thought about voting for or voting for now, but I think he had a vision for the nation that he thought was important. SM (01:05:40): Now, when you were young, did you dislike Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson because of the Vietnam War? MJ (01:05:48): No. My parents were democratic, so I usually did the old parochial thing. And you followed the Democrats and not the Republicans. No. I saw Lyndon Johnson as actually someone who probably would not have done it, but actually actualized what Kennedy wanted to do. He was the one that finished off a lot of things. Did he do it for politics? I do not know. But he is the one that made the civil rights movement where it is. It was not JFK. JFK talked about it, but due to his assassination was not able to complete a lot of his tasks. And Lyndon Johnson did do that. SM (01:06:29): I guess, Gerald Ford. MJ (01:06:31): I saw Gerald Ford as probably the common man coming to office, which I thought was positive. SM (01:06:38): George Wallace. MJ (01:06:39): Could not stand him. Only because of how history painted him as just being so anti-African American. And yes, he did change and he did contribute and people view him different. Just a southerner who I would never trust. SM (01:06:59): How about Ralph Nader? MJ (01:07:02): Good person who challenges even those that are in power. Probably can only do that from a White man perspective. If he was a person of color I do not know if Ralph Nader would have lived to be as old as he is today. SM (01:07:16): He is still doing it too. MJ (01:07:17): Yeah. SM (01:07:18): Still lives in an apartment in Washington. He has only two shirts, washes them, and I cannot figure out how the guy lives. Getting into some of the African American leaders at the time, of course, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. MJ (01:07:31): Religious man who fell into becoming a leader of the Civil Rights movement. Really, when you read the history of Vernon Johns, the person that was at the church before Martin Luther King, he was really the one that was really outlandish. It was just that Martin Luther King was one that people thought that they could work with and he was more the middle of the road person and then moved out. And yes, did bring a lot of people into the movement, but Vernon Johns was actually the civil rights leader, but it was not palatable to people. SM (01:08:06): How about Malcolm X. MJ (01:08:08): I saw Malcolm X now as probably one of the greatest leaders of all time. It was unfortunate that that movement did not, or Jewish people had such a negative connotation of him. But I also look at his family system and what happened to him in terms of how he was raised and see him as... Really, if we had followed the philosophies of Dr. Martin Luther King, perhaps African Americans would not be as dependent on the government as it is today. SM (01:08:41): How about some of the Black Panthers of that period. Huey Long and... MJ (01:08:46): You mean Newton? SM (01:08:47): Not Huey Long, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver. MJ (01:08:53): These were, again, young people who fell into a movement. Actually, the Black Panthers had a nice thing going in terms of they were running schools for children. They were doing a lot of things for African Americans, and they were giving African Americans a pride within themselves and it was unfortunate that it all got swept away in a battle with police officers. I do not even think that they were Black Panthers, the way people look at them, they were just another extension of the Muslim movement to me, but they did not want to be Muslims who were going to fight for, by any means necessary, the rights of their people. SM (01:09:38): Timothy Leary. MJ (01:09:41): I really cannot speak of him. SM (01:09:44): He was a drug guru. A couple of names, Barry Goldwater. MJ (01:09:48): Well, that is the reason why I cannot speak of him because drugs, I just have such a thing. SM (01:09:52): Right. MJ (01:09:55): Barry Goldwater, establishment, keep the power even at the expense of others. And I get that mostly because of how he has settled or went after the lands that Native Americans have lived on. There is just a need to have the wealth. SM (01:10:11): Muhammad Ali. MJ (01:10:13): Oh, wow. A man that changed America, who made you laugh. When I think of Muhammad Ali, I think of his, not so much of his religious belief or his not going into war, but his ability to poke fun at himself and others and to gain acceptance to almost everything. Having his own beliefs and still to this day fighting Parkinson's disease. You see this man who is fighting it in such a way that no other person has ever done that. He takes every strength to walk, and yet he is walking. I see him as just a very strong and powerful leader. SM (01:10:57): I think he just turned 50, did not he? MJ (01:10:58): I do not know how old he is. SM (01:11:00): He might be 50. He has got be a little over 50 because... Well, anyways. And Spiro Agnew. MJ (01:11:05): Oh. Nolo contendere. That is what I think of him. When I explain nolo contendere, I do not know, but if I was, I did not know. And that is how I see him. I often equate the office of Vice President as a nolo contendere job because we really do not use that office the way I think it could be used. SM (01:11:34): Well, he certainly brought the campus up to a rage, sure had that ability. Gloria Steinem and some of the women of the Women's Movement. MJ (01:11:44): As a woman of color, I just have not really had that much time to be involved in the Women's Movement because you can only have one movement that you are involved in. But Gloria Steinem I think is one that has brought White women to caring about others, as well as looking at White women and how... as well as looking at white women and how oppressed they really were. So she has helped release those shackles. SM (01:12:09): It falls under the same category as Betty Friedan and Bella Abzug and even Shirley Chisholm. They were all of that era. MJ (01:12:17): And Barbara Jordan, all of them. Yeah. SM (01:12:18): Right. MJ (01:12:19): Yeah. They were all women who went up against the odds. And so for that, she has got an acolyte in my land. SM (01:12:28): Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago? MJ (01:12:31): I found he was very racist, I mean, beyond the political machine. I think covert racism is just as, and perhaps more mind-boggling than overt racism. And I feel as though that is how that political machine worked, and it caused a lot of people who... That was the beginning of Cabrini-Greens and all of these blasted welfare apartments that they made, which they called projects, and they put people in there and could care less about them. And that probably is one of the downfalls of our nation because if we had integrated and infused all of these different people, we probably would not have the biggest welfare problem we have today. But we just put all of them in there and let them live on top of each other, kill each other, do whatever as long as it did not bother anybody else. And so Chicago, it has been one of the main places for that. SM (01:13:24): How about Robert McNamara? MJ (01:13:27): Do not have much to say. SM (01:13:31): The musicians of the era, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, the Beatles, Elvis Presley, all those musicians, it is the Motown sound, all the music of that period. MJ (01:13:43): All right. Collectively, when I hear of Jimi Hendrix, I think of drugs. Or I think of Janice Joplin, I think of drugs. So I see it as a lot of drugs involved there. When I think of Motown, however, I think of it completely different. I think of it as exploitation. When I think of Billie Holiday, I think of her as involved in drugs only because she could sing at any place in Harlem and yet could not walk in the front door if she was not singing. So I see a lot of their downfall, the taking drugs, for just trying to deal with the entertainment field. I see it as exploitation because most of those Motown people who have survived, really acquired their wealth in the late (19)70s and (19)80s, really (19)80s and (19)90s. But when you look at way back then, all of them were being used by someone. And they were all involved in a meat-shop-type thing where the people who owned the laborers made the money. I think the music was great. I guess, of the drug person that I loved the music of the most, and think it fits the time, was Marvin Gaye. I think he had such a great political instinct on so many things. When you listen to his records, they are just... You can play him today, and he- SM (01:15:11): Yeah. What is Going On is a classic. MJ (01:15:13): And Mother... I mean, all of them. He really talked about this... He took the moment of the time, and I really think he was a genius, and really talked about them and the pain that lots of groups of people were coming from. SM (01:15:27): And he was criticized for doing that too. MJ (01:15:28): Yeah. Oh yeah. SM (01:15:29): "You are not going to sell any records doing that." MJ (01:15:31): Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, his What is... And I remember going to sleep on Marvin Gaye records, just listening to What is Going On. He dealt with the sexual revolution through Sexual Healing, and that is why we were all into sex. I mean, it is just all of those things. And he was probably the one... Elvis Presley, I could not stand, and a lot because I do not know if it was a rumor or whatever, but I remembered he always said, "Only colored folks could do for him was buy his records." And so there was a lot of division. SM (01:15:59): He said that? MJ (01:15:59): Yeah. SM (01:15:59): Oh wow. MJ (01:16:02): I do not know if it was true. I do not know if it was true. It was a rumor that spread throughout the African American community. SM (01:16:07): Okay, wow. MJ (01:16:07): I also know that he ripped off a lot of African Americans in terms of their music. I mean, and that had nothing to do with him. It had a lot to do with that white America would not listen to Black music. And so Elvis Presley would go and listen to that music and then make money off of it. SM (01:16:23): The last one I have here is Dwight Eisenhower because he was when a lot of boomers were a little younger. MJ (01:16:29): Dwight Eisenhower? Only because I know the Eisenhowers... I think he came out of the war, and we made him a hero. I do not know if he was primed to be president. And so I think he fell into this great political power based on the fact that he was a good general. And I do not think he made such a great president. SM (01:16:53): Woodward and Bernstein, the two reporters that... MJ (01:16:56): Courageous. I do not think they realized... Because I lived in Washington around that time. I do not think they realized what they stumbled on to. I always just look at them almost like the OJ Simpson trial. If that had happened now, would they maximize their potential? I would hope not. I hope they would still do the same thing, just write the story as it was told and not worry about who they could sell it to. SM (01:17:24): How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life? MJ (01:17:27): The youth of (19)60s and early... SM (01:17:30): In attitudes that you have? MJ (01:17:31): First off, I grew up in Westchester, Kennett Square, Westchester. So I went to school in Catholic school and public school. And there were not that many African-Americans here. So I grew up in a white environment, probably knew a lot more about Italian and Irish culture than I did my own. My parents gave us, as a gift in our junior year, a trip. And because I was the youngest one, I decided to do the furthest thing. My sister went to Canada. My brother went to New Mexico, and I chose to travel Europe for the summer when I was 16. I turned 16 in Venice, which was really great because I got to come back on the ship that brought over all the student exchanges. And they picked me to be on a lot of panels because it was the ugly American at that time. And most people, most Europeans did not like Americans, which was new to me because here in America, most African Americans wanted to be a white American. Well, white Americans were not accepted, and I was placed in power on that ship because they wanted to know, Europeans wanted to know about my experience of being an African American here in this country, which now thinking back, might have probably been some of my first stance on race relations. And so I remember getting on that ship and being asked to participate in this panel about being an African American, being colored in the United States, and what did it have? And the reason why it had a lot of problems for me was because before I left to go on that trip, I wanted to go academic course. And at Bishop Shanahan High School, the ninth grade was a generic grade, and then you could go academic, commercial, or scientific. One was for the math and science, which was scientific. Academic was for those and wanted to go to college but not in the math and science area. And commercial was those who wanted to be a secretary. And the nun would not approve my schedule for academic. Now, I had been involved in cheerleading, and I just really had power at Bishop Shanahan High School. But when it came time to pick my courses, the nun stated, because my father owned a course, I mean a company, that the best course for me to track would be commercial because it is best for me to get a job and go work for my father in a secretarial slot. Now the nun did not know my father fired me when I was 12 years old because I did not come to work appropriately. So I had thought in my head I never would be able to work for him and never did. I was also a candy striper and had enjoyed seeing the social worker at Chester County Hospital and kind of said, "Oh, that is what I might want to do when I get big or grow old." So when I was denied the academic course, I was going to accept that because, after all, sister Mary Corona said that is what I was supposed to do. And I was a good Catholic. But my mother stated, "No," that I had to... If I wanted to go to college, then that is where I was going, and if she had to pull me out of that school, she would. Now you have to understand, that was devastating to me because I was a cheerleader, that ninth grade, that is the year you make whoever you are going to be. And I had made it to the cheerleading squad. And so I was now quote, "a popular person," unquote, and I did not want to have to start over into... And I had been involved in Catholic school since the fourth grade, fourth grade to the ninth grade. So most of my friends were Catholic. And my mother talked about sending me off to public school. Well, that summer, while I was away, my family moved from Kennett Square to Westchester, and my mother enrolled me into Henderson High School in the academic course. And I have to thank her to this day because I would have been a horrible secretary because I hated that. And I went on and did well, went on to college. But it was during that summer of my 16th birthday that my whole life kind of changed. And in the area of race relations was why it changed because the nun who was very racist, but I did not want to believe that because nuns cannot be racist, denied me access to education of which I wanted. SM (01:21:39): Oh wow. MJ (01:21:41): And to find out years later, the same thing happened to my husband where he was told the best he could do would be to work with his hands. And he just decided to go on to public school. And he was also raised a Catholic and challenged that system. I do not know if he was told that in public school or whether he was told that in Catholic school but went on to school. And I think that that is where the biggest mistrust comes for African Americans, is in that school system because we do not... And we still do not have enough people of color or enough white people who know about the colleges, of HBCs and know about how to nurture our kids and how to push our kids on. And so we think that, "I do not trust my child's guidance counselor because I know what was done to me. And far too often do I know what was done to other African Americans." SM (01:22:39): That is a very revealing story. And that will be in the book. MJ (01:22:45): Okay. SM (01:22:45): Because of what we have tried to find here, and this leads right into this very important question. If you were to pick the experience that had the greatest impact on your life, is that the one from that period? MJ (01:22:53): It was that, yeah. It was that, and it was being raised part of the Black middle class. Being part of the Black middle class, whites did not accept you, as well as African Americans did not accept you. I had a nice life. I did not really want for anything. I rode horses, had a nice life, and many times people would refer to us as silver spoon or all those kind of things. It was not until I came to terms with that my father did what he needed to do for his family, and he wanted to uplift his family. And so I started reading about the Black middle class and really started enjoying it. SM (01:23:36): If there was a particular event from that period in American history that had the greatest impact on you, what was that? MJ (01:23:42): Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. SM (01:23:44): Okay. You remember where you were when that happened? MJ (01:23:47): Mm-hmm. When Dr. Martin Luther King was killed, I was in the first year of college, and actually there was two assassinations. The first one was assassination of JFK. And I was in Catholic school at that time, and we were in mass, and we were dismissed. And then when we got home, we found out that the president had been shot. And that was really, really scary. And then it was the assassination of Medgar Evers. SM (01:24:16): Oh yeah. MJ (01:24:16): And then it was the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. And at that point, I realized that doing things through the establishment could not happen. And that is where my militant stance took itself because Martin Luther King had talked so much about nonviolence. And then you looked at what did that really bring you? And that is when you really... I think my own conversion experience from that time was moving to, I cannot stand whitey-type philosophy. And I was at Central State when that was occurring, which was a historically Black institution, and also National Guards people, the year before I was there, had marched on our campus and hosed everybody down. So there was this... And that is when I really kind of got involved, had the Afro, wore the dashiki. SM (01:25:06): Yeah, those were unbelievable times. MJ (01:25:09): But when you see three assassinations, and then right after that it was- SM (01:25:12): Bobby Kennedy- MJ (01:25:12): Bobby Kennedy. SM (01:25:13): ...was killed two months later. MJ (01:25:14): And so you realized how crazy America could be. Plus, you had television that would show you what was happening in the South, and you were watching people being hosed down. And so it was almost like today when people sit and watch, that is why I hate them, those crazy talk shows. You could turn on television and see things unfolding. I remember sitting home watching Jack Ruby shoot... Yeah. SM (01:25:41): So you are another one that saw it live, like I did. MJ (01:25:42): Yeah, yeah. I saw it live watching television because I was mesmerized by that whole thing. You just sit, and I mean, you watched television, and I watched the whole JFK funeral unfold. And when I happened to see that, you are just like, "Oh my God." It is almost as you watch that, you get immune to that. You are starting to look at everywhere you can go, you can be wiped out if you do not believe in certain things. SM (01:26:04): Yeah, [inaudible]. You were describing the event that had the greatest impact, those series of events. But if you were to try to, and it is tough to do this, but if you were to speak for the entire boomer generation from all ethnic backgrounds, what do you think the most important event has been in their lives, had the greatest impact on them? MJ (01:26:33): I think the assassinations and the war, and I say assassinations collectively. I just never thought that we would... I do not think people in America believe that they could see a president assassinated. You see Lincoln assassinated, and you realize, "Ah. Yeah, you can see all that," but never before. And I think the boomer generation watched those assassinations as it associated to politics, and I think that is where our mistrust of the system... Because we still do not really know what happened. And cover-ups started coming into play. SM (01:27:10): I am going to end with a question here. Actually, I am going to read this because I want to try to explain this. "The youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s believed that they could have impact on society as a whole because of the influence on government policy or influence over the draft, issues like voting rights, civil rights legislation, abortion laws, workers' rights, civil rights, multiple movements representing both genders and all ethnic groups because there was a sense of empowerment. This whole issue, we have talked about it earlier, a feeling of empowerment. We can make a difference, not only individually but as a group." How do you feel the boomers feel today about this concept of empowerment? We know they have the power of the dollar because 60 million, they have always been appealed to in the markets for dollars through advertising. But what concerns me is, that you have raised it already earlier, about that they have gone on and raised families, getting a lot of dollars like any other previous generation. But it was always the hope that this generation was different, that this generation saw wrongs and wanted to write them. It is not afraid to speak up, even if it meant the possibility of losing one's job. When you see something wrong, you hope that what happened during that period in terms of what was happening in American civil rights, the war in Vietnam and government policy, how women were being treated, how other ethnic groups came to empowerment, the Native American movement, the Hispanic movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, they all came because they all realized... They used the civil rights as a model, that if nobody is going to change thing for us, unless we change it ourselves. Nothing comes easy. We have to fight to make something happen for the better. My question I am asking you to close out is, are the boomers still feeling that way? And if they are not, is not this a sign that this generation is no different than any generation that preceded them? And as some people used to say, "Well, as you get older, you will see that you are no different." I live my life as I lived it back then. And sometimes I feel isolated when I fight for certain things, not that I am better than anyone, not out of arrogance but that somehow that era caught me for my entire life. And I know there are people like yourself. I think you have fallen in that category, but I am worried that there are few and far between when there is so many issues. MJ (01:29:42): Well, yeah. First off, I do not think there are few and far between. I think that a lot of people are doing a lot of things. It is just that our media does not tell us about it all the time. I mean, media really controls your opinion about our nation. And for whatever reason, the media really does not like... When you take a person like Ennis Cosby, who was assassinated, but here is a young... His life was cut away from him early. But he was a young man that could have done anything he wanted to do. But through the values of his mother, Camille, and his father, Bill, who were all part of the boomer generation, was working with kids who had learning disabilities. He was taking all of his wealth that he did not gain, and he had no problems about that. I mean, I think it is okay. It is okay to be wealthy, and I do not want people to think that it is not okay to give your wealth. But he was using his wealth in a way that was going to really take care of others. You take this young man whose life was just cut away, whose father owned the major company up in New York. And when you go around this world, you hear a lot of stories like that. You hear about the post office man who goes to church every Sunday and reads to kids. You hear about people who rock crack-addicted kids. I think there is such a contribution of people giving back, but our media will never ever tell you those stories. And so I think we have been robbed in America, and we have blinders on, and we do not really realize how many people give back and to what degree people give back because everybody is not the person who needs to have their story told in the papers. And so I am a believer that we have contributed, and I am a believer that we have lived up to what we thought we were going to do. I believe all of us have helped bring somebody along that would not have been brought along had we not had this spirit of giving. SM (01:31:41): So you are not going to buy into that, my very first question from the beginning of the interview, when people will give a broad sweep, a pen stroke of an entire generation- MJ (01:31:49): No. SM (01:31:50): ...that the reason why we have problems in America, the divorce rate, the break-up of the American family, the drug situation is because of those boomers. MJ (01:31:58): No-no. I think the reason we have a high divorce rate is people are living longer. And divorced, we were only married before for about 20 years. You now see people celebrating 50, 60, 70 years of marriage. And that is kind of hard. I think the divorce rate is high because women are working. They are independent, and they no longer are dependent on men. But I have seen too many people in, like I say, the postal office-type jobs that help people, and they will never be written about. They will never receive an outcome like that or receive anything, but they help people. SM (01:32:30): I am going to end by saying thank you very much for taking time. An hour and a half out of your schedule is a lot, I know. MJ (01:32:35): Oh, thank you. SM (01:32:38): And is there any final thoughts that you would like to state to conclude? MJ (01:32:43): I would just like to say that these thoughts are my own. They come from an African American perspective of a female, and there is some predictions about the next generation. And I do not believe I am writing that generation off either. I think that they will look out at history 50 years from now, and we will see the strength within themselves because I think everybody contributes in our society, or it would be doomed to fail. SM (01:33:09): Very good. Thank you very much. MJ (01:33:09): Yes, thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mit Joyner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Joyner, Mildred (Mit) ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor of Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master of Social Work from Howard University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.178a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.178b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 93:12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e846b949da066a464a137e53b3099a8.jpg ce657287210898e75093237c11e264ec https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce1fbd555aeb1e7ccd3d69ddbd1fc655.mp3 b3335531ebd7c225a3fccc6ac5005c7c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roosevelt Johnson Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 160:18 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Roosevelt Johnson was a psychologist, counselor, educator and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. Dr. Johson died in 2015."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15359,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson (d. 2015) was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Post civil rights; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Activism; Generation X; Kent State; Vietnam War; Black Panthers; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Post civil rights; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Activism; Generation X; Kent State; Vietnam War; Black Panthers; Vietnam Memorial.</span> Subject LCSH Psychologists; College teachers; Johnson, Roosevelt--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Roosevelt Johnson Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: Not dated -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:06 SM: Got to keep double checking this too to make sure this is working. Dr. Johnson, thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with me today. What I am going to try to do here is asked a specific group of questions and these questions have also been asked to other interviewees. Some of these questions also might look like they are repetitive. But the questions are asked, [audio cuts] certainly, and hopefully, if you have already mentioned something earlier, then we move on to the next question. But the boomer generation and the people the (19)60s and the early (19)70s have often are [audio cuts] that during this juncture in time, often being criticized by conservatives, by people along Christian coalition and other groups as being the reason why we are having problems in today's society. You hear it all the time on the news, even some of the so-called moderate Democrats, when they are looking at the issues of the breakup of the American family, the increase the divorce rate, the drug, the drug problems in American society, the uncivil dialogue sometimes that happens between groups, a lack of listening between groups. Sometimes people are trying to put this all into a capsule and going right back to that (19)60s and early (19)70s. And it was because of that generation, and how they were reared and how they acted, is now they have transferred into, this into their kids, and could you comment on whether that is a fair accusation toward the generation of boomers made up of 60 million people? 01:35 RJ: I am always I am always cautious about stereotypical and gross generalizations in terms of a generation. However, I do think that there are certain prevailing motifs, cultural motifs that go on, there is no question about it. If we look at the major forces in during that era of say, post-Civil Rights, and then after the post-Civil Rights and the switch, in terms of say, our moving to political impetus, and they end the orientation, and the theories that have gone on- political orientation and theories that have gone along with the subsequent election of Richard Nixon, which tended to [inaudible] in my judgment signaled the prelude to the switch to conservative. So then, I think that we got some gradations there in terms of say, there are some in terms of say some of the people who have emerged from the (19)60s, the post-Civil Rights Era, and also the political shift to conservativism, I am not so sure it is almost 33 and a third, okay, so if you really think about it that way, it is almost 33 and a third. And then I guess, the fourth estate, and that is the medium, with respect to the impact that is has had, and increasing the impact that it has had specifically during that period of time, so then it, the history is fascinating. And I am not so sure, I am willing to say that there is a large core, is according to which societal institution that you are looking at, at any given time, but I think there is a, if you may, an overarching type of influence, and an overarching type of motif, and, and collective thought. So, we got to, we got a, we got a kind of a universal cognition that is going on, i.e. let us go back to the impact of the Fourth Estate in terms of the media, and the fact that the satellite was put us up there. And then CNN became such a potent force, what I see as a core lessons of perspective, even if you go beyond the borders of the United States, about certain issues that are happening all over the world, by virtue of the cyberspace and so forth, which is again, the link, I guess you could say is that is that the Civil Rights, post-Civil Rights and then the era of conservativism, and then what you have that in fact, keeps all of this in a network, is the cyberspace. And with respect to the fact that everybody is seeing the same type of the daily account of present history being recorded, it is definitely influencing how people are thinking. So the media and the people who are writing for the media, in my judgment, are the, are people who have found, who themselves are part of- who are boomers, and therefore they come from that perspective, in terms of their cognitions. There have beliefs about certain things, their worldview, their worldviews, are have, they have to- if we accept that socialization is a real process, and I believe it is- they have an insight, say, like, be influenced by what has happened to them in their nurturance years, that is a part of their identity. So consequently, they are constantly referring back to what they have learned to be reality, their constructive reality is in fact are very similar, but I think that you will still find that is not a discrete dichotomous either-or in terms of is the boomers against the, not being the boomers. There are people within the boomer generation who are very conservative, people within the boomer generation who are in fact modern in terms of their political views, ethical and moral perspectives and so forth. And there are people who are extremely liberal. Okay, so then we got, I think this gradation. 05:58 SM: Make sure that my tape here it is. In fact, because it broke, he has invited me over to his house before the Congress starts again. 06:07 RJ: Okay. 06:07 SM: Because I have gotten to know him. I- most of my friends are liberals, but [laughter] Congressman Weldon, and Senator Fred Thompson, the two that I really, I really like those two. So anyways, as a take-off of that question, what do you feel has been the impact of boomers on America? Has the impact in your eyes been positive or negative? Or is it too early to say what that impact is? 06:33 RJ: First, you have, I have to accept the position that is only positive and negative. And that, again, takes us to the dichotomous thinking, which is fueling, I think, psychologically, societal psychology, if you may, I think that is probably keeping the momentum more exaggerated than it really is. Again, I see gradations, I look for gradations. I do not look for discrete categories of the dichotomy of either all or nothing. And that is, that is a part of democracy. So democracy, the life blood, as Seymour Martin Lipset said, of democracy is conflict. So, then it definitely keeps the conflict going, but I do not know if it, in fact, gets into a continual healing process at the psychological level. Now, I also think that we cannot, in fact address this question you know, in terms of gain, I am saying before I could really respond to whether it is positive or negative, I had to work it through, because I also am very much aware that the conflict, and the either-or- liberal or conservative, negative or anti-positive- is being, is economically driven, is driven by the profit motive. We cannot incite leave that out of our society, that negative news is, in fact, it is a very, it sells very well, positive news obviously does not sell very well, because there is not any one of the leading newspapers in in the world that reports positive news, people immediately go to what is the most heinous that they can find. So then what I think is happening is that the econ- that the political economy has co-opted people into making us believe that we have an issue, I will say negative and positive, I think without a doubt, if you look at a certain category, and that is the demise of the infrastructure within the United States, I do believe- and by that I mean, the highways, the cities, the universities that are in fact, say getting ready for the babies of the boomers, they are now beginning to say that we cannot build new facilities, but we will be able to bring the people on campus and then offer them course by computer, and so forth out of their dorm rooms and so forth or allow them to take it at home, through for example, the internet and so forth and putting up let us say, modems on the campus, around the campus, even exterior modems and things of this nature where people can work on a site. Now, if you take a look at that, and if you hold on nostalgically to what once was, in terms of the negative impact, the negative impact is the meaning that we are giving to it. If, for example, we are saying that we think that the classroom should be a-whereby there is a bonding between the professor and the youngsters or the professors and the graduate students- I do believe that should occur. But now if you think about the boomers being driven by the profit motive, which is you know, with a common vernacular and the patois, the bottom line, cut to the chase all of this language that in fact being developed by various and sundry economic systems, you say, macro and economically, the macroeconomic, the NSA and micro economic terminology that are used for social situation. So, people are being reduced in terms of downsides and outsides and read, outsourcing and things of this nature, the boomers by virtue of their being in leadership role, they have now begun to-to use these paradigms to deal with people. Okay? Now, if these paradigms continue to erode the infrastructure, and especially the moralistic infrastructure of the universal values, then we got to say it is negative. But when we in fact, say, like, take a look at that they can began to cause people, the pendulum to swing back toward the center, and people, to the extent can recognize that the boomers were the impetus for seeing swinging back toward the center, then probably serendipitously, the boomers are serving us a purpose to gain our right frame of mind on this, starting a new collective dialogue within our collective heads. Is this good? We are now beginning to ask these questions. 11:07 SM: This leads into my next question, because now we are talking about the children of boomers, which are, which are already on college campuses. And we will be [inaudible], you talk about the differences within the boomers, you know, we talked about the classification for (19)46 to (19)64, boomers. Well, I see even within the university when I am working with administrators who were still classified as boomers, they have not the [inaudible] knowledge of the impact of the Civil Rights movement, or what the war was all about back then, because they were a little bit too young. So, I sense that there is even strong divisions, like you said, there is conservatives and liberals. There is- 11:42 RJ: Within the boomers. 11:43 SM: Yeah. And the fact is that, you know, it is hard to classify over an 18-year period that these are the boomers, which is what society says we are doing something right. But can today- can today's generation learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? So this question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s, as a period of activism, a period that were students, where people got [inaudible] and single minded issues, because there were big issues then. A lot of big issues where young people can get involved in. So many of these same issues remain, there are new ones. And the lessons of the past are either not taught in the schools or never discussed between the parents, which is the boomer parent and the kid. Please give your thoughts on the issues and boomers lives and how they can have an impact on students today. And I say this only because I, in my working relationship with students, I see two distinct directions that they go in terms of people of my age. boomers. Number one, they look upon that period as an era of nostalgia, saying, "I wish I could have lived them. It was such an exciting time. I mean, people were involved in Civil Rights movement, they were involved in the protests against the war, the environmental movement, women's liberation came about all but all of it seems like the movements and Native American movement, all of them seem to be around [inaudible] around the time when you were young, when you were in college, I wish I could live there." And others the other extreme, where students will say, “I am sick of hearing it, you are living in us nostalgic period. This is (19)96. It is not (19)68 or (19)69 anymore. And so, I am tired of hearing about it, we have our own lives, we have our own issues, but then we do not have any big issues, but I want to get a job I want to get through school." And so, they do not have the big issues. But they do have their own individual issues, which is getting, getting a degree and getting a job. And in some respects, we cannot always talk about all the today's young people that are going to college there is a lot of them going to trade school. So, what I am trying to say is, are the boomers. And are the boomers really talking about their experiences with their kids? Are they sharing what they went through, are they sharing the- those important issues of that time? And some still remained today, but it is as if they do not among the other young people. So I just want to know what your thoughts are. If the boomers are really being good parents, are they sharing what transpired and they were young? And in some respects are the generation X really listening? 14:09 RJ: Well, I am not so sure that the boomers are being good parents if you use the criterion of the pre-boomer period, okay, anti-boomer period there, meaning that if I look at- and I am a boomer, all right- and if I look at the relationship that my mother and father had with me, it was very impersonal. Or if I look at what I know, my peers say, who themselves were not supposed to make it at Southern Illinois University, for example, first generation college students out of predominantly Black schools, high schools and so forth. Well we got there and found out that we had better for example, communication skills as far as the written word was concerned that many of our I would say white counterparts who came out of great high schools of Northern Illinois and Evanston, Illinois and places of this nature, right. So then it got around big university town. So our parents had prepared to pass the baton onto us. So then we got to look at the multicultural and the multiracial groups of boomers as well. But I fortunately have an opportunity through the last over almost 30 years of teaching both Black and whites and in terms of, say, graduate school, so I have had an opportunity to make some assessments on it. And from what I see is that at some point in time, and I like to think of this boomer generation as the transitory generation too, they have seen they saw the transition, African Americans, for example, from Jim Crowism to public accommodation, whereby they did not have it. So that they know what, for example, a Jim Crow is, and they know what it means to be excluded. So, they can recognize inclusion very, I mean, very well, and they can recognize exclusion very well. But the babies of the boomers are not capable of doing this, Black or white. It has been superficially presented to them through the media, it is always on the cusp, it is never as intense as it is because the boomers experienced this. Okay, the boomers experienced the transition of going from lack of civil rights to the civil rights struggle to the fact that Johnson signed the 1965 Civil Rights bill. Okay, so consequently, they saw the transition. And therefore, they are dealing with reality is based upon a cognitive set that they have seen before, during the process, and subsequent to the change. So then they deal with impasse, and for those who have not. And on the other side of the reality construction, the parents, some of them actually got further away from their anti-boomer parent- I will say morality, and they therefore began to have technocracy, technocracy and post modernity in terms of their perspective on how they deal with their children, okay, so then therefore, they-they stay a distance from them, they do not have interpersonal relationships with them, they allow the professional to do the rearing, they will allow the-the they allow the media to do the rearing, and the peer group to do the rea- the rearing. What I have found, therefore, is that on the other end of that, and in between, there is a group that is trying to hold on, which the children do resist, I see a lot of those in therapy, whether that child is in fact white or Black, whether that child is rich or poor, liberal or conservative, they try to resist that interpersonal, because, say involvement, where that person who was involved in the (19)60s tries to in fact interface and deal with and rear that child with that experiential input in there, some of the children do resist to that. Some of the children do not. Now, it is therefore, a matter I guess you can say, of the idiosyncratic way in which the children themselves- and that is what we got to be very careful about- and that is each-each individual has an idiosyncratic child does of the boomer, has an idiosyncratic meaning that he or she will get to the world. Now what we got to do is base that upon it is not right or wrong is rational, or is it is reality. So, we in fact, deal with, whether it is rational, what the child is doing and believing, or whether or not it is a reality, what the child is doing, then we do not worry so much about behavior as we do about cognition. And that is where we got to begin to get the focus. And that is, is the self-hurting a self-defeating in terms of some greater moralistic, cosmos type of perspective, or is it in fact a self-helping, we got to, in fact, make that decision discernment. I go back to the university and college, universities and colleges are in fact beginning to acknowledge that that was something good about the whole notion of the hands-on in theory into practice, because of the of the of the, I guess you can say, the mushrooming of outreach concepts in every major college and university. So then, in that regard, if you take a look, now, everybody has a community clinic, or everybody has some type of outreach program, or some thrust to outreach and reaching out into the community in their curricula. And in fact, the business world is now saying that they want to buy into that. So, then that is that activism of the six. 19:44 SM: Yeah, we have a social work chair, who has raised kids and one is going to Spelman College right now in Atlanta and one is going to Howard- they are twins, and she has one coming up. Her husband is a judge in Philadelphia, and he is also on the board of trustees and interviewees. This [inaudible] West Chester University. And I asked her point-blank last year is that a general discussion if she has ever sat down and talked to her kids about what it was like to be at Howard in the (19)60s where she graduated? She said, "No." She said, "My kids have got enough problems today, with the problems of drugs, dealing with all the other issues of the day, why burden them with what-what it was like when I was young," I am sure they discuss some things. But- 20:26 RJ: But the issue is, would it have been a burden that that actually is cultivating another type of skill. In my judgment, now see I do not see that as a burden, she is assuming that the child is a victim. 20:38 SM: I am going to go in depth with her on that, cause she does not realize I am going to bring this up when we-we are doing the interview. But she, she is the chair of our social work department, Mit Joyner. She is a dynamic professor whose students love her. And I she is one of my close friends at the school. But the fact that that statement really shocked me and so during the interview is not going to be the beginning, when I am going to just interject my question and do a little more definition there. Because she might explain why. Again, this might be repetitive here, if you were describe the youth in (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe the qualities you most admire and the qualities you least admire. If you were to just give a couple of adjectives of the things that you have most admired about them. What would they be and some of the things you least admire? 21:19 RJ: Their sense of dedication, they were dedicated. They were in fact, say like, inquisitive. They were courageous. Okay. They were well, they were willing to take risk. They were flexible. Most of them on college campus. And now you say the youth, if I was talking about high school, it would be an, and I was associated with an upward bound program, then but as well, and they were forward looking, they were without anxiety, they had a sense of hope. Okay, because subsequent to the Civil Right when the government provided to them a [inaudible] debt for hope, of hope, okay. And therefore, by virtue of the, even though the [inaudible] never really had the money, the concept was empower- psychologically empowering. The concept of, of the war on poverty was-was the was psychologically empowering. Now, I guess, therefore, the opposite would be some of the things I would have to say that in retrospect, retrospect, I would say that maybe that the youth were gullible, and maybe they went, because I believe that now, the amount of depression that I see, the amount of anxiety and type attacks and, and the amount of panic attacks that I see in people and so forth, and the fear that they have in trying to communicate with their children, all of these things probably instilled in them a lack of sense of hope, which is the origin of depression is when that when that hope turns into that is a loss, when one begins to lose that hope, then one begins to have a collective depression that is going on. Okay. So then, and when I- oh, and then I guess, in the [inaudible], this is in retrospect, I thought it was exciting then. But the freedom that they had in terms of not only in terms of relationships, and even very intimate relationship, the sense of a lack of commitment, though. However, the-the lack of commitment with respect to marriage, the lack of commitment with respect to promiscuous behavior, okay. And promiscuous thought patterns. Obviously, they were not that- I did not like the fact that they did get away from moralistic principles, I guess, it used to be that I did not like that about that group of children, which in fact then probably is causing, and in the, right now, some of the sense of the lack of identity that they obviously had when they thought about what they were doing. And now I believe that their parenting skills are actually fostering a sense of lack of identity in the babies of the boomers. 24:21 SM: Interesting observation, getting off the general questions here, because several people that I have spoken to have said when you talked about the boomer generation, especially in the area of the Civil Rights movement, you cannot even talk about boomers, they were too young. To talk, the fact that boomers were born (19)46 And a lot of the things that were in the Civil Rights movement in the mid (19)50s, late (19)50s, early (19)60s, they did not even- they were not old enough to really be involved, but certainly they were influenced as they got older in to the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. So, I have had several comments, say in stating that, if you talk about the boomers, you cannot talk about them really having hardly any; the effect on the Civil Rights movement, even the antiwar movement on college campuses, the majority of them were a lot of the older graduate students, I remember- 25:10 RJ: If we take now, we are saying (19)46 to (19)60, right? Now- 25:14 SM: [inaudible] those are people who were born between (19)46 and (19)64. 25:17 RJ: Okay, well, between (19)46 and (19)64. All right now- 25:20 SM: Bill Clinton's like, he is just nearing- 25:22 RJ: He is a boomer. 25:23 SM: 50. 25:23 RJ: Okay, right. 25:23 SM: That group is just turning 50 this year. 25:25 RJ: Right, I see what you are saying. Right. Now, on the other hand, if you think okay, (19)40, if you take (19)46 now, and they, I believe those people have a lot of- see the Civil Rights movement, actually, moved, moved from public accommodation against [inaudible]. I believe that the Vietnam War resistance movement, if you may, was an aspect of Civil Rights. And I think it prompted many of the demonstrations, the rallies the whole bit. Okay. The fact that Muhammad I believe spoke out in about (19)64, (19)65. Again, (19)65 at (19)64, no (19)63. He spoke out about (19)63 and (19)64, (19)64, when he spoke out and said about his being refusing to go to Vietnam, if I am not mistaken. (19)64, (19)65. Okay, now it will you think about that, that had an aspect of the Civil Rights movement. Okay, so I guess Muhammad Ali would have been considered a boomer, right? Yeah, he was. He is about 52 now, something like that. 50, or 50-50 or 51, something like that. Okay, well, anyway, he would have been considered that- he had a tremendous impact, the Black Panther Party, Huey Newton, okay. Let us say, Eldridge Cleaver. They had a heck of an impact upon the Civil Rights movement in the late (19)70s. I mean, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Okay, because they have moved from the feeling that for example, as a matter of fact, if the Panthers were around right now, they will be considered terrorists. Okay. It is no question about it, okay. If you look at the Democrats who have, you know, Students for a Democratic Society, and people like that at Berkeley, for all intents and purposes, that was (19)70, they had an impact on legislation in Congress, the (19)68 Civil- I mean, (19)68 convention in Chicago, okay. With respect to what Mayor Daley did, and how he controlled that particular, that was all about Civil Rights. It actually put law enforcement under the microscope, it began to make people start thinking about how you are going to contain crowds and not contain crowd. Okay, you have people in terms of the Hun- the Hungarian, say invasion and so forth. That was (19)63, no it was (19)66 (19)67. Okay, if I am not mistaken, not Hungarian. 27:59 SM: Poland. 27:59 RJ: Poland, okay. 28:00 SM: That was (19)68. 28:01 RJ: Yeah, (19)68. 28:02 SM: Alexander Dubček. 28:03 RJ: There you go. And yeah, okay. If you take a look at that, for example, then you had students on college campuses reacting against that, okay, and so forth, that what happened at Kent State in 1970, had a tremendous impact upon influencing policy. Okay, those, and when those white children got killed in their [inaudible]. Now, if you take a look at it, all of those youngsters were actually born since 19- that participated in that were in fact born since that period, (19)46. 28:35 SM: You are right [inaudible] the observations that I am getting so far. I am the boomers. For example, when you talk about what is the question I have coming up here, [inaudible] that question I asked with respect to the Vietnam War. What is the impact of boomers on that war with respect to ending it? Now, this is a commentary and your thoughts are very important here. I have had one person who said, "That is ridiculous. They did not end the war. The people that end- Richard Nixon ended the war" and [crosstalk] conservative, okay- 29:05 RJ: Yeah-yeah. 29:06 SM: Then I got the other extreme saying, and this is where I interviewed Jack Smith of ABC news a couple of days ago when I was down here. And then of course, he was in Vietnam. And he said that, "No, the college students did not end the war." One end of the war was the middle class Americans who saw the kid who's caught saw their sons coming home from Vietnam. And when-when Middle America saw that the war was bringing, was killing people and everything, they made the decision that they were against the war and they influenced their politicians. And that is why you saw the Frank Churches of the world who would not get on the bandwagon with the extremists on college campuses. Fear of not only losing his senate position in Idaho, but so what-what are your thoughts in terms of the boomers and their impact on the on those two movements, particularly on the ending of the Vietnam War, number one, and then their-their important role or not so important role in the Civil Rights movement. Now, you mentioned the Black Panthers, but in terminology, boomers. That is what I am trying to get at here and keep in mind you we are talking 60 million people here, of which some of the books they only about 15 percent were ever active anyways, in any kind of activism during this 30:21 RJ: Oh, look let me tell you what, I have, they had a tremendous impact upon influencing the Civil Rights movement. Because if you think about it, the Birmingham church bombings, which were in the (19)60s, those children that were killed for our exam- for example, they were boomers as well as the children who demonstrated. You see what I mean, about the policies, in terms of and who followed Mrs. Parks. They were not they were not your typical college student, but they affected public opinion. For example, many Gene Smith, and let us say, Donald Green, and those people who went to Central High School, for all intents and purposes, okay, so [audio cuts] [inaudible] The Supreme Court decision has been rendered, and everything, which is another major impact- is it on? 31:12 SM: Yep. 31:12 RJ: Okay. Here is another major impact. See, some of this was actually, it was actually subsequent to, that was an era there were a lot of young Black people who were in fact, boomers. And who were born right, even right, the right in that same era there. Okay, in terms of [inaudible] to (19)60, that the child in terms of whom Brown versus the Board was in fact, she was 26 or 27 years of age, you see, so then, and that was not- that was of international prominence, that decision will go down. But as in the famous canons of jurisprudence, forever Brown versus the Board of Education, that was a boomer child. Okay, that was at the center of that whole controversy. I mean, all that was a major Civil Rights decision was changed. It was it was the moral equivalent to the ending of Apartheid in South Africa. And a boomer child actually created that. Okay, now, and then if you take a look at, they had the [inaudible] boomers. Another thing in terms of Civil Rights movement. [Michael] Schwerner and [Andrew] Goodman, and, and [James] Chaney, the three civil rights mov- workers that were killed in Mississippi, and I think it was (19)63 or (19)64. Okay. 32:39 SM: (19)64. 32:40 RJ: Okay, fine. Now, they were boomers. They were in fact, they were not. They were like, I think what 18, 19 and 20 or something like that? They just barely, just barely missed it maybe, but for all intents and purposes, but here they were was showing coalitions at that time. And they were fighting, and that was a national prominent international peace that had international media down that end, and now just goes right on up to this the Vietnam War. While I believe that the mothers and the middle class really did, maybe they were the ones who wrote the letter, the boomers were the conscience, i.e. Bill Clinton, okay, that type of thing. And the boomers did not want to serve in that war. Okay, the boomers were trying to do everything they could to get-get school status of get out of the country, because they did not want to go to Vietnam. Okay, so consequently- and that was generally a draft dodger, new lexicons, you see what I mean, we are actually developed a new lingo, and that type of thing, right. And so, then that particular say, impact, the media did not focus on the middle class, because that was very unamerican. But the media did not focus on Kent State, they did focus on Berkeley, it did focus on, say, University of say New York, did focus on that, did focus on Michigan State, you see, and this type of thing, and all of the Black schools in the south, it focused on that. So then and about their opposition to the war, and actually the boomers highlighted another thing that, that when certain moral issues, are brought up, that Black students and white students coalesce even in historically Black schools and-and predominantly white school, around the immorality of something because in Jackson State in the same year, the same month that in fact, in Jackson, Mississippi, that there were, say nine or so students killed at Kent State, there were also the troops fired and killed on five or six Black students at Jackson. 34:43 SM: Right, in fact there were four killed at Kent State and I thought a few wounded and then there were two killed Jackson State. 34:49 RJ: Yeah. 34:49 SM: And I still remember the fact that it is a very sensitive issue that when you started talking about what happened in (19)70, you better talk about both schools. 34:56 RJ: That is right. 34:57 SM: And then the media has a tendency, and I know they did an article on this in the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was in the last couple of years, when they were celebrating past anniversaries that this this year, they made absolutely sure that the anniversaries of both of these tragic events were recovered because the- 35:14 RJ: So, the media are being influenced by the boomers too making and raising these moral issues. Okay, so no question about. 35:23 SM: Yeah, how do you respond to a person who might say a Vietnam veteran will say, "Well, you are only talking about the elites here. You are talking about those people, “Whether they are African American or white students, or Latino students who went to college, you are talking about the elites here, you are not talking about the rest of America of the boomers who never went to college, which is still the majority, the boomers who went off to war in Vietnam and never got a college degree, which was probably the majority. So how can you define that group of boomers? 35:54 RJ: That group of boomers as the one that were you, the most healing has to take place. Because they were in the fighting units in Vietnam, okay. And that type of line, the [inaudible] Eagles and the Marine Corps and that type of thing. Now, let me tell you, and they were also the labor force that geared up after Chevrolet started making shells in St. Louis, in the (19), let us say (19)65 to (19)70, they open up shell plants, and many of your major car producers went into developing, you know, shells for artillery, and so forth. Now, they-they did that, they were the ones that were doing the heavy-duty operation, or they were on the front line. Now, they, therefore when they came back, and also I think they are the most troubled Black and white, because they still are I still have men in my classes now who fight the battle of Vietnam almost on every issue that comes up in that particular classroom. And these are not the elite. These are students who are not supposed to even made it to college. But then let us go back to in terms of the drug problem. The drug problem is, I think, significantly impacted on the-the guy on the street, and right immediately subsequent to many of the GIs coming back from Vietnam, they were hooked. They stayed they state, I have had them in therapy and so forth. I am not talking about college students, they had to, in fact, use that to anesthetize themselves and the availability of it, they even talk about that they knew it was pretty much a national policy that they could get as much Vietnam, I mean, say heroin and get as much marijuana as they wanted to. The family, Agent Orange affected the middle class. Okay, that and it is still affecting the middle class, okay, in terms of that, and so even now, one of the things that is causing the prevention of that healing is that these issues have not been resolved. And we got another issue of that, where some of the babies of the boomers are experiencing the same thing with respect to the Desert Storm syndrome. Okay, so then and these are not college students. This is the run of the mill GI who is at Fort [inaudible]. 38:15 SM: So, when you again, a lot of my questions that are being taken off from some of the other interviewees really been reflected from a [inaudible]. So when a person who is college educated, but certainly Vietnam says that the ending of the war in Vietnam that was not because of what was happening on college campuses, is what was happening away from the college campuses, but the media portrayed it and everything- 38:38 RJ: The media was not going to go down on those college campuses. You see what I mean? It was not going to go down there. Think about that. As another thing, if you think about it, the Kerner Report, the Kerner Report documents all of this with the US, you familiar with that, right? And the US commission on riots and civil disobedience, which came out in (19)68, okay, when it came out, it documented all of it. What happened in Detroit was a lot of frustration in terms of the Boomers who were acting up the. What happened in in Watts, that were, okay, the-the lack of civil and legal recourse that were available to people, okay, all of these types of things that that unrest and so forth, and the still oppressive nature. But see, now get ready for this, the media then was getting ready to turn a corner. So what the media did, they even staged some things that were not true. The media had begun to recognize them. Remember I said early on an interview, that the media has been the cohesive glue that networks around all of this stuff together. And the media has changed and has been extremely, let us say vocal and in pointing this out, everybody knows that nobody likes to see little Black- little white girls get killed on college campuses. Okay, so consequently, you cannot say it was made a big deal. Now I will believe that Kent State was the most significant impetus in changing policy about the Civil- about the Vietnam war than any single incident. 40:19 SM: You are [inaudible] right on that one, because I can remember that even when I was a graduate student at Ohio State back and (19)71 and (19)72. By (19)73, [inaudible] changing- 40:31 RJ: That is right. 40:32 SM: The movement just [breath to indicate vanishing] 40:34 RJ: [inaudible] got elected, a Democrat, got elected governor for four years- 40:38 SM: Oh right, and then they voted the other guy back in. 40:40 RJ: And voted Rhodes back in. 40:41 SM: I know. 40:41 RJ: You see what I mean? That saying that. 40:43 SM: Amazing. 40:44 RJ: Yes, it was amazing, was not it? But again, and that conservative impetus has been with us, we have had only two Democratic presidents since then. And one of them was suspect, Jimmy Carter's suspect of having been a Democrat, okay, because of his very conservative policies. So then since that time, we have only had one a Democratic president since that time, in terms of a liberal elite, and of course, now history showing us that-that [inaudible] is not liberal. 41:12 SM: Very middle of the road. 41:13 RJ: That is exactly right. So then we see that. So then that era hit in there, and now who is keeping him in? The boomers, therefore, you would have to say a significant number of the boomers are in fact, keeping him in there, because that means then keeping him in keeping that-that conservative bent and look at this, there- the Newt Gingrich's and so on, and so forth. But I understand and that is what we got to do. But there is hope. The hope is, that is not either or, we got people all up and down the spectrum there in terms of say, their political bent. But in the final analysis, we would have to say that people made a fundamental shift in their, in their worldview, and that worldview became that we, that you must get, in effect, the bottom line in materialism. And I think that had to do again, with the impetus of the media, the media has infused that, the media is about selling. The media is not about in fact, say doing anything, but selling and getting people to buy. So then therefore, and as people saw, people want it. And therefore now they look at the conservative bent as having more money in my pocket and the liberal bent as taking money away from me and giving to someone else. So we went back to our media induced social Darwinists. You got to be more fit than the other person. And the way that you be more fit than the other person is the one that in fact, has all the marbles, who at the end of the game wins. 42:51 SM: Yeah, it is like, one of the terms that was used, I can remember when I was in college, and I was really proud of it is that we are the most unique generation in American history, we are going to change the world. We are going to make sure that everybody is equal, that racism is going to end. Of course, the sexism issue was something that was growing too with the women's, but it was the concept of equality, we cared about others, it was hopefully others beyond ourselves, yet, you had the enigma or the what some people might call hypocrisy of a slogan that was used in that time, and I can remember having it on my door at Ohio State University in Jones Tower- 43:32 RJ: Were you part of the problem or [inaudible] 43:34 SM: No, it was the Peter Max posters that were all over Ohio State at that time. And the slogan was "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance, we should come together, it will be beautiful." And that, that if you say that then some people will say, well, the boomers were no different than any other generation. They are into making money that you saw what happened in the (19)70s or the late (19)70s. And the (19)80s the "me" generation they were really only into "me," they were they were very selfish, making money getting a job, they were no different than any other group. This business about idealism and being different is a bunch of malarkey. So, I know that I have not- I still have the same ideals but I am kind of wondering if I am an out- if I am an outcast. Because money- 44:19 RJ: Good. If you an outlier, good. 44:20 SM: Money is money is not the most, never has been the most important thing in my life. And in but to some people it is. 44:27 RJ: Yes, it is, a whole lot of people. 44:29 SM: And that is what they say that the boomers as a whole were no different than any other group. They just wanted to raise families, make a lot of money have a car and a couple of cars and the whole works. What are your thoughts on the boomers being at that time saying that they are the most unique generation in American history? 44:43 RJ: I think they sold; I think a significant number of them sold out. Okay. And sold out to their, their principles of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Okay, and but I understand it and I can accept it because I have a fairly decent understanding of the process of socialization, and that is in terms of the conformity in the normal curve, okay in a normal distribution, and that most of the people began to follow what was being infused into them. We started to invite say, like, choose our majors based upon job prospects on college campus, we were not choosing our majors based upon what we wanted to do. And when you talk to people about what they what they were going to major in when they want to go to college, they said I want to I want to major in and probably businesses or something, something that is going to make me an awful lot of money, okay. They did not think about like, if you has asked people 30 years before then. And people would have said, "Well, I want to be a teacher," or "I want to be a social worker," or "I want to be an engineer," okay, something like-they did not want to be, they had to do what was going to make them a lot of money. So they were in fights, they coopted. And consequently, and I noticed that where else who logically would have believed that a whole institution that financed the home of boomer parents, the parents of boomers would have allowed without major hysteric the savings and loan association to be robbed completely dry. And then accept that the Resolution Trust arbitrarily now takes out their checks every month, 2 to $3, from every American who has a checking account or savings account, to pay for the savings and loan institution that was robbed, literally dry, to in fact, say pay for the money that was stolen from people and many people never got. But that was not a public outcry. Because the-the moral ethical belief made a tremendous shift to that whole notion of if you can get away of the 11th commandment is, do not get caught. That is where we are now. And that is the moral principle that we are operating on that now, I do not like that about the boomers. Okay, because now is nobody- I had an Iranian who worked for me about, oh, 10 years ago. And he said, you know, America is a funny place. Nobody cares what you do. Nobody is concerned about what your profession is or what you do. Everybody is concerned about whether or not you make a lot of money in it. Okay, and that is true. Nobody cares if you own like waste management now waste management company, if you will, in fact, waste management, which is just a garbage man in my in my here generation. If you waste management, you are going to be filthy rich, because that is a big issue now but that is all people concerned about, "Can I make money at it?" So therefore, like the youngsters who are in adult right now, and what we got ourselves to really think about this, now, the papers just reported the other day that, for example, drug abuse it uses up among the children of boomers significantly, okay, the drug policy office out of the office of the White House which ascended politically to a cabinet level position was in fact wiped out with the staff. That is why Lee Brown left and went back to Rice University. As a professor, he got a chair because he saw that Clinton was not doing anything. 48:34 SM: Down to 20 people, was not it? 48:35 RJ: Down to 20. 48:36 SM: 120 to 20. 48:37 RJ: That and no budget. They just had to put, they were coordinating and everybody else, it was nothing by the show and tell position. So then that goes along with the moral and ethical hierarchy that we have which the boom- now, the boomers are very tolerant of immorality. Because you got to just come to grips with that. The babies of boomers and the boomers are very tolerant of immorality, and they lack- the babies of boomers particularly, they do not have that work ethic that we had, that many of the boomers had or if you may the post-boomers, anti-boomers had. Okay, the generation the anti-boomers had, but they do not have that same work ethic. They want to make a fast buck at any way that they possibly can. 49:23 SM: Can you talk about the drug scene that the, what was happening in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a Timothy Leary what his famous slogan there, "tune in to turn on turn out" or whatever it was. He said, so many of the boomers did that that they were kind of lacks. And so, the parents or the boomers today will say you cannot be judging us and our usage of drugs look at what your generation did, you think there is something? 49:49 RJ: I think there is a tolerance. You know, like, I see I see parents who know that their children are into drugs, and there is a certain resignation. That is going to happen. And it is not that they are alarmed about it like the parents of boomers would have been, they, the boomer parent is "I know what is going to happen." And "Well, my son and my daughter has a drug problem." And they kind of look upon it as a process through which they are going, they are going to go, and stages through which they are going to go. They just accept that as almost a rite of passage now. I do not see parent, I do not see most parents saying that, "Oh, Lord, I do not want my child to get into dru- Oh, my goodness, he is into drug or what have you. Well, you know, we are working with them and we are willing to spend $25,000, from the insurance company to send him or her for somewhere to dry out for 20, for 10 weeks or so or something like." They just for the middle class people, but in terms of for the less than middle class people, they see it as the one opportunity for making that buck. 51:00 SM: So that was in the intersection. That is why when you are looking at all of these issues, you just cannot just look at the issue [inaudible], you got to look at the economy again. You know, we have kind of the big sphere, that vision really causes these problems. Have you changed your opinion at all, say when I was a student at Ohio State University in (19)72, and in (19)96, and you change your opinions and all over the last 25 years toward boomers, you have taught a lot of students when you were fairly young professor when I had you I know back in the 28 or 29 it was [inaudible] Yeah. And you saw those students who were boomers and you saw many other boomers in the next 5 to 10 years that followed, and then you have also had the people of today. What are your thoughts on, I guess from-from a professor's point of view, you have seen them. You have seen them in class, but now students of all colors- what is your analysis of this these people? Have most of your students for example, have you been proud of most of your students? Have they gone on and lived up to the concept of you know, going on to education and making a career and what are your just your overall thoughts? 52:13 RJ: Ones that- I keep in contact with a with a number of them. And I have seen, it is a trend that most of them who thought they were going to work on college campuses and schools and things of this nature, social service types of job, use those positions to go into working with Xerox starting up their own consultancy firms moving into politics and things of this nature. And I do believe it has been power and money driven. Okay, I do not think that it has been altruistically driven, okay. As, now that is, that is one thing. I think it is still money and power driven. 53:03 SM: That is got to disappoint you, does not it? When you- 53:06 RJ: Well- 53:07 SM: Because when you teach in class, you are trying to extreme opposite. 53:10 RJ: Yes. But here is what I say. I think I understand reasonably well the whole socialization process. So it pleases me when I see someone like well, you remember Mac Stewart? 53:10 SM: Yes. 53:11 RJ: Okay. Now Mac, from what I heard is still at Ohio State is he is still working in student- well in University College as Assistant Dean, but I know other people who came through like him, who moved out and went in this- take Alex Moore. Alex got his degree and say, Student Personnel Administration, his PhD but went and started to work for boarding company in Switzerland. Last I heard he is in Ohio back in the international headquarters, in Columbus working for them. Now, if you take Carl Harshman, remember Carl Harshman? 54:00 SM: He was stocky. 54:01 RJ: Yes. 54:02 SM: Big stocky guy. 54:03 RJ: Yeah, well Carl Harshman has now an international consultancy firm and is a millionaire, and lives in a big exclusive area, and I am in touch with him frequently, you know. Carl it works in transitioning Japanese well I will say American owned say factories and what have you, for Japanese owned businesses. And he is coordinating that whole process of training workforces to move into say, for example, new products and everything with a big staff. He loves higher education and all that all together after working [inaudible] professor, and in fact, say like a vice president, but for Academic Affairs, at St. Louis University, and that is what he is doing. But I understand that okay, I understand it. It does not really disappoint me, I think because again, I am not so sure that some of these people, or Felicia Gaston got- do you remember Felicia? She got her, she went to [inaudible] got her degree, went to Ohio State got in student personnel and she has been with Xerox now almost 20 years. This stuff you see, I mean, and went way up the ladder to a regional vice president or something like that. Okay, so then it but that was the trend of boomers and a- the babies. Well, let us put it like this now. The babies are boomers’ children I am seeing in therapy now. Okay, they are angry as hell. The number one target of my therapy that I work with now is anger management and disruptive behavior. Okay, if they in fact are presenting as depressed or presenting as, say, with panic disorders or attention deficit hyperactive disorder, the one thing you can count on is that they are violent and angry. Okay, it does not matter what the babies are boomers now we are talking about the ones that are getting ready to go to college now. Okay, that those will be the babies of boomers. Right? 56:02 SM: Right. 56:02 RJ: Okay, so now they are in fact, they are typically identify as- white or Black- by their being extremely insensitive, object relationship oriented, not in terms of say human, but things. That is what I see now. 56:21 SM: Are they mad at their parents? 56:22 RJ: They are mad they would- some of them do not even know what that, but a lot of them are very mad. I have one anger management group on Saturday morning. And it runs the gamut from professional parent boomers or babies of professional parents to just the working mother. Okay, and the literature reports the same thing. And they are mad in terms of the idiographic, the specific- person specific ang- manage, say, anger, focus. The parents are very frequently a target of it. When you talk about nomographic, general nomothetic type of measures for them, they are it may run the gamut all the way from being angry about their future, to being angry about, say, for example, let us say about anger producing situations that are about getting along with peers. You see what I mean, provocation about getting along with peers, provocations about position- people in positions of authority, you know, they have just, have this profound sense. It is almost like it is a latent sense of jealousy that comes out in abject violence. 57:32 SM: Wow. 57:33 RJ: Okay, now, those are the those are the babies of boomers. And what is his name? Devin Bakker out at Cal- out of Colorado State University, he has found he has- he said, for example, that a co-presenting problem was generally now that is found with most people in therapy, [phone rings] whether it is depression or anxiety, or whatever, it is the issue of anger. Now, you have to have all the irrespective of where you go, there are anger issues in these schools that is tremendous. Getting back to the media, and getting back to the lack of nurturing types of parents that I am finding, okay. 58:17 SM: Which could be directly related to some of the qualities of the boomers so lack of commitment. 58:21 RJ: And, and the fact that the parenting role is unfair, see, they cognitively understand that "My dad is not here, he is not making money," or "My mom is not here, she is making money" and this type of thing. Or "My dad's not here, because, for example, my mom was doing her own thing, and she just got pregnant with me and there is no dad here." Or "My mom told my dad, I am you are going to keep me and I am going on about my way," or "I do not know who my dad is, I do not know who my mom is," or the grandmothers are raising the pre the parents of boomers are playing a significant role in raising the babies of boomers. 59:00 SM: I am seeing that too. 59:02 RJ: Yeah. 59:04 SM: It is uh- 59:05 RJ: Well, that is what I am saying that, for example, I think it is identity. It is an identity issue. And then we say we take it in targeted like that, then that means that we got to give them a sense of purpose. 59:19 SM: If you were to just say in they were the most unique generation, would you say they were most unique or they are no different than any other? 59:25 RJ: I do not think they really have that much different than any other in terms of the prolonged history in now and historical analysis. During this, this constricted contemporary, and I would almost have to say from the Industrial Revolution up to this cyberspace revolution or generation, I would say that they were adapting and are adapting to the way in which this unplanned let us say, ambience, in a global perspective, if you may wish the cyberspace is brought about, they are just inside being a part of that. So if you were to take the agrarian to the adult industrial and the industrial to the atomic and the atomic to the cybernetic, and if you were to take that, that group there from-from the what you will we just so happen to call it the boomers because, hey, what about if you made the Western expansionist if we want to do that, that was the whole movement that moved from go west young man, the [inaudible] concept from the agrarian to the industrial. So then you see, when we think about that, we could have called them something but we did not have the hook to put that on that the media gave us for the boomers that it has, and we did not have [inaudible] and we did not have other sociolog- sociologists, like that you see, and Max Weber, to have come by and given us these types of concepts to deal with. You see, so then that is what the conceptual incarceration we are in we are in fact, incarcerated in that concept. 1:01:03 SM: Good point. We are coming toward the end of this tape here. And then I am going to- we have another 30 minutes. 1:01:07 RJ: Yeah. Okay. 1:01:08 SM: Because of the um, we are going to get into some questions on Vietnam right now. You, I have been to the Vietnam Memorial three years ago now, I come down every Memorial Day now. I feel it is important for me to be there. I am trying to get a sense especially involved in this project, whether healing has really taken place, not only within the Vietnam [inaudible] population, but in the nation itself. Jan Scruggs wrote a book in 1982, the person who put together the Vietnam memorial, called To Heal a Nation. And so, I have looked at that I read that and a tremendous effort in terms of creating a non-political entity, where people can come and reflect it is the whole, you have been there, you have seen, the impact has on everybody, everybody, it affects them differently. They reflect them in some respects, as Jackson has said, they all reflect in somewhat of a different way, when they look at that wall. Their own- do you feel that the boomers are a generation that is still having problems with healing. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial did a great job of the veterans in some respects and families of veterans but do you [audio cuts]. Okay, here we go. 1:02:19 RJ: As I was saying that it may be in terms of why they were so inactive, is because if their parents were wealthy enough to give it give them, they were given everything they took so much for grant- they have been taken so much for granted. And if they were on if they were not, the social welfare system, gave them everything that they wanted, or they have insight, learned to deal with deviant ways of coping in society, that they are experts in dealing in deviancy. Think about it, you know, like, from the drug thing, to the prostitution, to the violence, to the gang banging and all of this stuff. These are deviant ways of coping with their pressures. To just simply actually-actually acquiesce to-to, to being a failure, to acquiesce being a failure is actually a deep deviant coping mechanism. [audio cuts] 1:03:32 SM: We just have to check on that, because your experience with [inaudible]. This might be seen- I only three more questions, and then we are done. 1:03:40 RJ: Okay, no problem. 1:03:40 SM: This may seem a repetitive question, but I think it is very important with the project I am working on again, that is why I am repeating it. Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences in positions taken are so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care and is it feasible? For example, during my many trips to the wall, I have been to several ceremonies of the veterans in the audience. Many of them have stated that they still hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda based on the fact that they are wearing these badges that say "Jane Fonda bitch," they are all over the place. They hate those and protested the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome on the return to the mainland. The Wall was helping a magnificent way but the hate remained for those on the other side. Should an effort be made to assist in this healing beyond the wall, your thoughts? Are you optimistic or pessimistic? And basically, I guess what I am trying to get at. I know it is impossible to 100 percent deal as one person told me, is Dr. Silver, who is a psychologist up in Coatesville. He said “There is a difference between forgiving and healing. Healing, we can know a lot of veterans are healing from the war, but they cannot forgive.” So, do not misinterpret that the fact that they cannot forgive Jane Fonda or Bill Clinton means that they are not healing. You agree with that premise? That or do you agree that the efforts that the healing process should be trying to get beyond the need to forgive Bill Clinton because he was a young man at that time. And he obviously made have done something wrong in their eyes, but to constantly use hate someone; hate is a strong word. 1:05:12 RJ: Well, I-I do not believe that healing can take place without forgiving. Forgiving is atonement and spiritually, the only way that you can find say like, and this is psychological and spiritual, the only way that you can heal, which means to become whole is to, in fact, say like forgive, where you are giving the past a different meaning. As long as you are holding on to a past that has been self-hurting to you, and a past that has been troubling to you, then you cannot heal. And if you decide and the only person actually who can bring about that healing is oneself, one has to learn the process of change and the process of healing. And one of those things is that one has to in fact, let the past go. Do not allow the past to control your present, then you are in fact being healed. Okay, like for example, a good [inaudible] metaphor is if you allow us, you have an abrasion and it scabs, that happened in the past, it is in the process of healing. But if you in fact, allow yourself to pull that scab off, it takes it back to where it was, it was you re-hurt it again. So then the skin cannot, the scab cannot fall away, cannot harden to allow the skin to re- to become whole and is one. Okay, so this is what has been happening. I think with a lot about Vietnam, we think it is a it is a destination, it is a journey, the healing is okay, and I am in that process. The petroleum that drives that you to that journey is forgiveness. 1:07:06 SM: It is interesting, that brings up the whole idea that this is such a complex subject, that even when we talk about healing, the definitions are different. You as a professional, this other person is professional. 1:07:17 RJ: It does not surprise me because in my judgment, European men have a difficult time dealing with spiritual concepts, unless they are theologians. 1:07:29 SM: People will ever trust elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate [inaudible] stress what effect is this having on the current [audio blip] it gets back to my question with Senator Muskie, and the fact that I can remember reading something that if you cannot trust in life, you have got to trust someone, you cannot, if you do not- 1:07:48 RJ: That is right- 1:07:48 SM: You are not going to be successful in life- 1:07:50 RJ: Which is true. If you cannot trust. 1:07:50 SM: In the long run. But there is a lot of you know, I still have that problem. I am very, not what I lot of people I trust, I mean- But positions of authority, it is always seems to be about power, its control, its takeover. It is never it is jealousy. It is you know, and I know, it is- that is part of what being a person is-is the politics of life. I know that for a fact that whenever you get into a certainly an institution of higher education, and certainly in the political reason it is and then after, and then as most boomers have done, they have grown up at a time when they saw their-their leaders assassinated, they saw political the nation come apart. They saw divisions that were so wide. And then then of course, Watergate just added on top of that you cannot trust the enemies list, you know, people looking into private lives. And you will see that extended into today with almost a George Orwell, George Orwellian philosophy of (19)84, that nothing is private, nothing is sacred anymore. Your whole private life is now on computers that can be bought. It is just an extension of the Nixon enemies list almost. You see a little bit of in the White House with the appointment, some of his people taking the Republican names, even though it may have been a mistake, someone was doing it. So, I am asking that basically, this whole concept of trust. We see amongst our college students today that only about 15-17 percent, according to last studies of entering freshmen are have any interest in politics or actually to trust any leaders yet there is interest in volunteerism is over 85 percent. So, on the one hand, we see students will obviously care about others because they are doing volunteer work. They care about others yet, maybe they do not see the sense that they themselves can be empowered. 1:09:35 RJ: Well, [crosstalk] they do see that they can be empowered, but the type of empowerment is obviously altruistic and not financial, and not and not receiving their empowerment is not giving which is, in my judgment, more probably more peaceful, more subtly and more if you want to talk about identity is more is more is coming and goes with whom you are more. And that you are defining yourself by what you are doing by using your talents to in fact help somebody else. 1:10:20 SM: That is happening on amongst today's college students. 1:10:23 RJ: Well, that is great, that is really great at that level, are definitely say that that is admirable, and probably in terms of the healing process of a generation, and the babies of boomers healing, maybe they are, in fact, say healing themselves. And in the process, maybe the boomers in their senior years will emulate what their children are doing in terms of reconciling. And actually, if you may, atoning by letting it go, what they have been driven by-by all these years for all these years. 1:10:57 SM: How do you respond on the fact that today's college students still do not vote? They do not vote. Boomers do not vote in large numbers. And boomers are the ones that are thought to have the 18 year old vote, the old slogan was a for going off to war, then we have to be able to vote, we are going to die in war at 18, then we can vote at 18. 1:11:16 RJ: Okay. 1:11:16 SM: Of course (19)68 was the first year that 18-year-olds could vote. So yet but, statistics show that boomers and their kids are both not voting. And the to use Dr. Benjamin Barber, who is- 1:11:27 RJ: Okay but look at it like this. But then what are politicians doing about voter registration, motor-motor voter registration, have you noticed they do not want it? Why? Because they- 1:11:37 SM: Jackson does, because- 1:11:37 RJ: Wait a minute but that is not, but he is a different type of politician, he is an altruistic one. That professional politician does not want that to happen. Okay, because they know if the people if those boomers who are not about the voting vote and have AIDS to the [inaudible], they tend to also be against the established politicians. Okay, and established politician know that that is a no-no, you do not want that type of person, even to vote in the poll, you want that opinionated, if you may, either-or type person in there, you do not want the thinking person in there, the boomers, the children or boomers, therefore probably going to register more as independents, rather less and less as Democratic or Republican, which is, in fact, again, the lifeblood of democracy. So, then what they are in fact, say perhaps going toward, and incidentally, not trusting the political process, maybe will be the existing the status quo political process may be is the impetus that is going to change it. 1:11:43 SM: [Inaudible] since the (19)60s and still continues here in the (19)90s. 1:12:27 RJ: [agreement] 1:12:32 SM: How did the youth in the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that in your 20s when you were teaching? You saw some of them, you saw some in your classes, and then of course, you have seen them now, throughout the years. Have they changed your life in any way, the boomers you have come in contact with? 1:13:06 RJ: Yeah, they gave me more hope. They did. Okay, when I think about it, but the majority of them gave me hope. It was especially when I was teaching in predominantly white schools. They gave me more hope about-about the races actually doing things together in a common end. Okay, they gave me more hope in the sense of saying that race or that quality probably transcended race when it came down to mentoring. Okay, I definitely saw that. And also, incidentally, that is why because you remember that course I had up at the prison, remember? 1:13:53 SM: Oh, great course. 1:13:53 RJ: Yeah. Okay. So then, and I am still doing some of that right now. But I remember when we had all of the young white blonde girls going up there to [Inaudible] Reformatory, which was one of the big prisons there. 1:14:06 SM: Tiffany Brian? I forget her name. We went with me. I forget her name Bitty O'Brian? 1:14:09 RJ: Bitty O'Brien. I remember her. 1:14:11 SM: She was a shrimp. 1:14:12 RJ: Yeah, and- 1:14:12 SM: Four foot six! 1:14:13 RJ: -Susan Shillman. And all of them. You know, they all went up there. So and then we were seeing that, that they had a sense of wanting to do something. But now that was, and now we also had to take into consideration that I was blinded. I did not know what was going on over the School of Business. I did not know what was going on in school of education. I mean, not education, but engineering and that type of thing I was dealing with because here is the other thing, Ohio State implemented while I was there, they implemented the early experiencing program that before you could declare your majors for the undergraduate, you had to have two years of volunteerism before you could declare your major they were just implementing that, okay. So consequently, that whole thing when you think about that, that sense of hope that I think that they the sense of commitment that they had, that they wanted to do something. But now guess what. The people, many of those people decided to get out of education, many of them decided to get out of social work. Why? Because it was not paying enough money. 1:15:18 SM: Right. 1:15:18 RJ: But now on the other hand, the enroll and we even start disseminating, we started on, say, actually dismantling colleges of education. And now we see we do not have any teachers. So now we are having to re- get a resurgence in education, again, resurgence in social work, and so forth, okay. And people now a want those jobs and want those majors. I had a child in here the other day to tell me that he was really considering which is very African American young a very smart, what have you, and his dad killed his mom. And that is one of the issues he is dealing with about six years ago, and he is still dealing with it, but he wants to be a teacher. You know, I mean, and that is unusual to find a child now that says, "I want to be a teacher" or "I want to be a minister," or that "I want to be, I want to major in criminal justice" or something. Everybody is, "I want a lot of money. I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer." You see what I mean? 1:16:15 SM: Right. 1:16:16 RJ: Even my two children, remember that? Lisa is I told you is an MD at Merck now, she just moved up there last month and from-from Glaxo Wellcome. And Marcus is completing his MBA, with a baby then, is completing his MBA JD at Georgetown, one more year. Okay, look at what they chose. 1:16:35 SM: That was the son that I met two years ago, he was going to go to Berkeley or Stanford. What happened to? 1:16:39 RJ: He is at Georgetown. 1:16:40 SM: Oh, he is at Georgetown. 1:16:40 RJ: Yeah. 1:16:41 SM: Oh, okay. 1:16:41 RJ: Yeah, he is going, his MBA. He has finished in more year, he will have an MBA and JD. 1:16:48 SM: Wow. Two more questions, and I swear we are done. 1:16:53 RJ: Okay. 1:16:55 SM: Again, this might be repetitive when the best history books are written on the growing up years for the boomers saying 25 to 50 years from now, what will be the overall valuation? I think you have covered that in what you have said before, but as a history major, political science, which was my double major as an undergrad, one thing I was always taught is that the best history books on any era or take about 50 years. History books right now on World War Two, [inaudible] the best ones on World War Two are now. And so, we are only like, 25 years out from that era, that juncture there is a lot of books that are written, you feel that-that is, it is, it is too early? 1:17:28 RJ: 50 years? 1:17:29 SM: Yeah. But do you think? 1:17:30 RJ: Is it too early now to say it is some good lookout? 1:17:33 SM: Yeah. 1:17:33 RJ: Well, I do not think that is really, we have not run a full course, I agree. That I really think that is, you know, because we almost got what would be considered modernity and postmodernity within that group. I mean, that group right there. So now with the books that is going to come out and look at the transition from that, in terms of modernity, and postmodernity, which will probably be another 20 odd years, those are going to be the ones that will give us the best account of this generation, okay. The boomer generation, I think it has not- certain conclusive, let us say positions cannot be taken now. Because this in gestation, I mean that the children will say a lot about how successful the parents will be. The children's success on the children's behaviors is going to make it is going to give people the empirical data about what was apparently collectively happening with the parents. 1:18:27 SM: And [inaudible], could you comment on the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the generation gap if you sense one between the boomers and generation X. Obviously, I could talk all day, [phone rings] this generation gap when I was there. When I was a young person, I can remember this taking that sociology class at SUNY Binghamton before I arrived on the Ohio State campus, to see Wright Mills' book, White Collar, talking about fact that the IBM mentality of everybody with a top hat, with a suit, with a car out in front, the [inaudible] in the house, that was what we did not want to be. Because remember, that was when the Multiversity. I think it was- 1:19:14 SM & RJ: Barker's book. 1:19:15 SM: -Coming out there. And the revolt was that we were not going to be carbon copies of what the university or what society wanted us and we are all going to go our different ways. We are going to challenge the status quo. And that was obviously the tension between the generation, my generation and my parents’ generation. And now you see you I have raised a few things about tensions between the boomers and big things on Social Security. Every but thing's being written now that stayed in the (19)30s. Because there was an ongoing war. We have had people on our campus from [inaudible] to third millennia wars, alarming today's college students about the upcoming war on Social Security between boomers and today's children. I mean, they are saying a war is coming even before the war has happened. I do not like that terminology, "war." But I do not know. But would you- would you agree that the generation gap is any different now than it was back in the (19)60s? 1:20:14 RJ: Yeah, I think that is a very good point. I think it was on less serious issues back in the (19)60s, probably we thought that they were serious then. But in the (19)60s is a generation gap was pertaining to things like about whether you are going to go to college, who has the authority, and to make these decisions, and that older people out of touch in a more defiant- it was almost is we have an and say, diagnosis, we have an oppositional defiant disorder, then it was a more of an oppositional defiant disorder. But now, I think is structurally, I think that was what was happening now is that the very structure on which society is built, it is causing a rift in the generation in terms of, if you may, the issue of entitlement, okay. If you think about the issue of entitlement, what am I entitled to at 65, and-and going in my senior years, that my, my daughter will be entitled to or not entitled to and her- and my-my oldest daughter- and her children, she is a boom, a well, just yeah, she was born in (19)64. So then, in terms of her child, what will her child be entitled to? And then in terms of the workforce, you see, the older group, the older the-the boomers are going to be phasing out of the workforce. And the struc- and then with the global economy, and that issue coming in there, and what do we do with our older people and people in need? I think we are talking structural issues here. We are not we are not talk- it is analogous to, "Oh mom and dad, how late should I stay out" or "Should I in fact, engage in sex?" Now, there is analogous to that, to now it is much more serious. And that is, "what do you think about an abortion? As opposed to, "Should you not," as opposed to "Should I pit?" or "Should I be going steady?" Now the issue is, you see what I mean? 1:22:24 SM: Yep. 1:22:25 RJ: What should I be doing? What do you think about abortion as a political issue? People are now being, you see what I mean, and that this is a generational thing, or better yet not so much about what am I going to do in terms of my career, but whether or not we should in fact, be in allowing immigrants to come into the country. It used to be just, hey, you know, America, come on over. Right. But now we got much more structural issues here. I thought that-that is hitting that the infrastructure, that is actually having an impact about what our boomers going to do, as opposed to that children are going to do. And then how will we sus- how will we sustain this, the Social Security system, if, for example, we are outsourcing the making of Nike shoes to Malaysia, and we do not have those people in the in the Social Security system paying in anymore to take care of the boomers who are in fact getting older. 1:23:20 SM: I had not even thought of that. And I know about the social security issue. But you know, paying all the wages of people outside of this country. And this money could be coming into the United States, and that could be produced here. And that would help the divisions that could not [crosstalk] 1:23:35 RJ: That is exactly right but I think I am seeing something structurally happening in five years, the states will, in fact, have to, in fact, come up with- I noticed this in Wisconsin last, week before last. We saw an awful lot of young Black males working in hotels, you do not see that around here. I mean, cleaning up and everything, because Thompson out there is getting, in order to get certain types of benefits work- you got Workfare out there. Everybody is working, doing something in Wisconsin. 1:24:05 SM: Tommy Thompson. 1:24:05 RJ: Yeah. 1:24:06 SM: [Inaudible] writing a book out too right now. Is that Megatrends? 1:24:07 RJ: Okay, yeah, you know, he was being considered, he was not ready to be considered for vice presidents, but he is apparently doing something out there. His administration is, and that is what Clinton has supposedly, you know, tailored this thing. But now when you start thinking about the global economy, and then you start talking about the workforce growing, okay. I mean, workforce dwindling, and then outsourcing your-your jobs to, to whomever to the global economy. And that you know, like, I forget the name in his book, but you know, like we got we are going to have producers of information, and then we going to with the internet and everything- Maybe it is Megatrends. A female wrote it? 1:24:13 SM: Nope. Well, yeah. Male and female. The husband wife combination. 1:24:25 RJ: Okay, right. Okay. I forget who they are, they have written. Yeah, but you get where I am coming from. That is that right now you see, we are going to have different categories of who is going to be producing information, who is going to be the transportation to get the product to where it wants to go, and who is going to be the person to manufacture, and who is going to be the person to sell. That was what we got to do. And so when you think about this, think about this, at the bottom line is profit, you going to the cheapest person every time. So then, but what that does is unless you would have these centers, these-these type of centers or focus centers, you were going to get left out of the loop. And I think that is, what is getting ready to happen to the children of boomers, unless we in fact, began to reconceptualize it. But in the final analysis, we run a possible core shutdown of the whole thing. Because if the children of boomers are not paying into Social Security, then we got a problem. They do not have anything to support the people who are in fact seniors and dying out, and then they will not in fact, say like when they get a chance to move on until that, there is nobody to support them. 1:25:59 SM: It is pretty scary. 1:26:00 RJ: Yeah, it is. 1:26:01 SM: It was got to be addressed. It was got to be more vision, talk about the quality of vision. In a political, I am like, okay, we are talking, spending at least up to five, seven years down the road. Nine years? 1:26:14 RJ: It is going to be a major problem. 1:26:15 SM: (20)07 depending on the politician. 1:26:17 RJ: [inaudible] 1:26:20 SM: This is my last question. And again, the youth of the of that era believe they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, Vietnam [inaudible] legislation. Certainly, they were involved in nonviolent protests. And the many movements, whether it be the women's movement, the environmental movement, and the-the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, even the Hispanic movement at that time, and all were thrusting around that era. Although some of the critics of say the civil rights movement is not of that era, it was way before into the (19)50s. But why is society resisting this today? And why in your own words, were the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, less desire and seemingly less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this question? [Inaudible] of opportunity, and by saying, less desire? I think we have probably gone over all of this already. But it is, it is something that is plaguing me. And because I- am I wrong and assuming that this is even a problem? 1:27:23 RJ: You are, I think you are onto something, I do not see the same commitment that they can bring about if I am understanding, that they can bring about change and wanting to get involved as readily as their parents were because now, we do have, we have a resurgence, if you may, of the media projection is one of individualism. The need is one of collective action. That is what we have, that again, creates another ambivalence. There is a need for people to collectively and altruistically be involved in things. And the, and the notion is that if I can acquire it is kind of a cybernetic social Darwinism, again, that, for example, the fastest growing businesses in the world right now in the United States anyway, are home-owned businesses, okay. And so therefore, we believe that by empowering people now, is to have a laptop and a modem. And a lot of people operating under the notion that if you have a laptop and a modem, you can in fact, work at home and do whatever it is that you want to do. So, if you got your inner sanctum there within your home, etc., you do not have to be concerned about anything else. You outsource that to somebody else to be concerned about. That is what the notion is all about. Outsourcing is the concept right now. I do not want this problem, get a private, privatize. Get somebody else to take care of it for you. Okay, and that is what our children- our children are more attuned to using me now. I mean, the boomer's children are more attun- they are not afraid to come to council. Some of them are resistant, boys tend to resist more than girls and etc. But they understand using that outsource of information they are not- they understand using agents. I mean, a good example of that, look at all these mega dollar contracts, basketball contracts that these guys got in this last year. They do not know beans about but how to go down and sort of jump the ball up, slam dunk, but they got these. They got these shrewd lawyers who are in fact working to get their money through these guys talent, outsourcing, you got some you got some talent, outsource it, get the person get your talent person and go ahead and get it. 1:29:56 SM: The term I [inaudible] "outsource-outsource." Is that a terminology of the (19)90s? 1:30:01 RJ: Yes. Outsourcing is what is turning DC around, man. Here is what it is okay. Like it used to it used to be the whole notion of make or buy, make or buy decision when you in business, do you make the product or do you buy? All right, a bakery. Do you, if you and say you own giant, giant food stores right over here, do you make this cheesecake, or do you buy it from somebody else to make it a [inaudible] or let a contract? See, here is the whole notion now. Everybody got a contract. Okay, now, just like another biggest purveyor of this concept is the Pentagon got the biggest budget in the federal government. But guess what, the Pentagon does not make one thing or manufacture one thing. Everything is outsourced to, to contracts. 1:30:51 SM: Senator Proxmire, remember? 1:30:54 RJ: Yeah. 1:30:54 SM: The whole fleece award or whatever [crosstalk] 1:30:55 RJ: Yeah, that is right. Everything is so now this down to this level right now, okay. And so forth. My son, musician, right. I mean, he also is into, he has his own band, and he is going into production, he was not going to entertainment law. Now, he has a couple of contracts on Department of Interior to put on concerts and parks in the DC area. Here, well he is doing one tonight and one tomorrow, everything is outsourced. When you in fact, say like need now, do you know one of the biggest businesses that are going on? Not owning a temporary agency to provide temporary accountants, you can provide temporary home care for your-your aging parents, you can provide temporary, a secretarial service, now you can do provide temporary anything. So, then the people do not have to run human resource departments anymore. You have not seen it probably at Westchester? Nobody, in fact, has a janitorial college. I mean, a university around here, or this building. This building does not have a maintenance person, it has, it outsources, it to a company that provides it. 1:31:13 SM: Yeah, that was what happened at Westchester. 1:31:54 RJ: Yeah, that was what happened at the university of DC. They do not have the same char-person anymore, taking care of who was on the staff. You do not have that overhead for the fringe benefits and all the rest of the stuff and you do not have to deal with unions. 1:32:22 SM: That is another thing that the children have to deal with. Because though even Sears Roebuck is hiring only part time people as opposed to full time. 1:32:28 RJ: Yeah. 1:32:29 SM: And all the money you are going to make is going to be based on what you sell. 1:32:33 RJ: Right, commission. 1:32:34 SM: And the dead days for all business. And then, but not giving coverage, medical coverage to employees, is one of the basic incentives for doing this, it is about cost saving. 1:32:44 RJ: That is right [inaudible]. 1:32:47 SM: I have done here with the exception of the fact is, do you feel you have made an impact on American society? This question will be asked to all participants in the interview process. And as a follow up, do you feel you have made a positive impact in the lives of boomers and the members of the current generation called generation X? Some people said, you know, I cannot [inaudible]. Well, I will let you answer that. Just-just your own thoughts. 1:33:12 RJ: Well, by virtue of my former students, standing contact with me, the feedback that I get [audio cuts]. I fortunately am in a good position to get feedback from my people that I have been in contact with, I still stay in contact, believe it or not, I have a couple of youngsters that I was dealing with-with an Upward Bound project back at University of Illinois before I even got my PhD, that still stay in contact with me and attest to they are having gotten some from the way I operated and the way I operated, inspired them. I have undergraduates from when I was an academic advisor at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville of a few people whose still contact me, one young lady call me recently she got a doctorate and when she came into town. She was here for I think, a funeral. And she called me and I had her as an undergraduate student, and she was still talking about the way I operated as an academic advisor in these- one of the ideas developed a concept called intensive academic advisement for high risk students. When I was at Southern Illinois, at Edwardsville and she was talking about how that feel, how that helped her. And I was home for a class reunion, for my high school classroom. And a lady approached me at church and said that two of her sisters yet talk about me as being their academic advisors and both of them are very successful. And now and when they were there working on their, on their degrees at Southern Illinois Edwardsville about and when we were introduced in church that Sunday, she said that she heard my name and she wanted to come up and say to her sisters have told her about me. Now that is almost 30 years ago, right? And then of course you is an attest- you are in attestment to that. I think I have made a difference. Carl Harshman is an attestment to that, that I think I ma- made a difference. Mac Stewart is in attestment. Everly Bank, do you remember her? 1:35:33 SM: Was she there when-? 1:35:34 RJ: She was a heavyset young lady. She were- 1:35:37 SM: Was she there in (19)72? 1:35:38 RJ: Yeah, she was kind of quiet. And but she was kind of obese. She went on and went to University of Minnesota and gotten a PhD. And Everly has been at about 10 different university in the last nine years. She has gone away to California someplace now, but just loved the universi- Jackson State University where she was vice president of this type of thing. And she has I have kept in contact with her over the years, you know, and Bill Pickard, I do not know if you remember him. Bill Pickard was working on his doctorate there at Ohio State at that time. And he went into business and owns a couple of McDonald's in Cleveland, Ohio, and another one in Detroit. And get ready for this. Bill is the state chairman of the Republican Party for the state of Michigan, very wealthy guy now, right. He is in contact with me, right. [laughter] This I mean, he is extremely wealthy. I mean, I am not saying he just got a little money. 1:36:40 SM: Right. 1:36:41 RJ: He is making buku dollars, okay. So, then that is, that is how I get some of the feedback then around here. Since I have been in this area. A lot. I mean, hund-, literally hundreds of people who have gotten their degrees out of our department at-at-at UDC, and a Master's in Counseling Psychology, they are now in working in DC government, heads of departments, the chief of police in, for example, chief of police in New Orleans, is William Pennington, he got his degree out of my department, I worked personally with him setting up some programs and things when he was here over the juvenile division, right. And now he is chief of police in New Orleans. So then in that regard, and he got a lot of outreach, and he got the community policing thing going on here, you know, that type of thing. So yeah, I think I have made a difference. 1:37:36 SM: That is very important. And I can admit, the fact that I am sitting here that you have made a difference in my life, because I say, well, you know, when we were-were, I think the best thing that ever happened to me was when I broke my arm before I came to Ohio State and had to start late, remember I was supposed to start in the fall. And I was supposed to have, I think [inaudible] Silverman, I think supposed to be my advisor, but because I came in January, you became my advisor. And I will never forget some of the meetings we had during this. But I can never forget some of the meet- [audio cuts]. I am not sure where we were here, but you look at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, about the healing process. Do you feel that? From your own perspective, not only someone who's a scholar and intellect, a professor, but someone who has seen a lot of people and lived through that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, the Vietnam War. Do you sense that the healing has taken place within the Vietnam veterans, and then within the nation itself between those who are for or against the war, the tremendous divisions that happened in the country at that time? 1:38:46 RJ: Now, we were saying and as I was saying, you know, like, I think the last term I use when the conceptual incarceration in the boomers, okay, and the same thing is true with respect to the Vietnam issue and healing. It will heal. Right now, the motives for it is not healing by people who control the media is that it is still, it raises a lot of controversy. So, then people in the media go after things that are and book publishers go after things where people are still struggling to get the healing done, cause that pain will cause them to pursue some remedy. Like you were mentioning a man who did not make the eye contact, that was a negative coping antidote that they have had, well, let us say interpersonal social skills, it is an antidote that they have had to develop probably to keep their pain down, okay. And it they have very idiosyncratic reasons for not looking at people and so forth. Now there are people who are hustling the Vietnam War thing. I still I mean, the memory of the other Vietnam War thing is still being hustled by a lot of people. And you got to understand this is a capitalistic society, we always talk about this being a democratic society. I believe that when Abraham Lincoln said in the Emancipation Proclamation, and that he was going to give everybody 40 acres and a mule that was not just for [inaudible] folk. What that was, is that everybody has really believed in a way, and I certainly believe that, when you do not get your 40 acres and mule that is promised to you in the form of a degree and a job and a, two hot, two cars with a chicken in the pot and this type of thing, people going to figure out a way to get that 40 acres and the mule, you understand what I am saying? So therefore, we have to look at some of the motives behind keeping the Vietnam War, as in fact, say aroused, arousing and as provocative as it is, were there not the media, the healing would take place. Like for example, in suppose we have Armistice Day parade of 1946. In New York, everybody still remembers that, that brought closure to when the boys came home, you remember that concept? There is a concept, when the boys came home, that brought closure to World War Two. But the fact, but if we did not have the television, the immediacy of the television, how many stories have been made even the whole doggone thing about that the guise of Forrest Gump of Forrest Gump was a takeoff on the Vietnam War, and the whole process of healing, and so forth. You just name it, you got so many different movies, and so many type books and everything. People are hustling that concept, okay. So then everything in America is about capitalism, find a way to capitalize upon. If you cannot, and a lot of people are driven by this, and this is a little dirty secret that we do not, in fact, say like, bring up. But any doggone thing that we do in this country, there is only one motive that a whole lot of people have in doing it. And that is their hustling. 1:42:09 SM: Making a buck. 1:42:10 RJ: Making a buck. Now, let us go back to whether or not- I have been down to the wall, and I went down to the wall with a group of people from home. That is the only other, that is the only time everyone that comes very [inaudible]. And the reason we went down there is because I had several friends who came to visit, they wanted to see the wall. And we knew some people who were killed. And so we wanted to see if we could find their names, which we did. And yes, so therefore it is very moving. It provokes in you, it arouses any emotion within you. But in arousing of the emotion, just like all memorials, that is what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to make you remember. And so then some people have discovered, just as people had discovered with respect to, some people have even discovered with respect to the China thing is it called the Turner Diaries, is the guy who wrote the book with respect to the whole thing about terrorism, and they believe that Timmons- Timothy McVeigh read this book, and this guy is a professor- 1:42:17 SM: I think it is Turner Diaries, that is right. 1:43:06 RJ: The Turner Diar-, okay, everybody got a motive. Why would you want to write a book like that? You see, you want to write a book like that because it sells. Okay, there could be no other real motives. I mean, so then you got to, and why does the publishing company publish a book like that, because it sells. It has no redeeming value. So, we got a lot of stuff out here, that is that is and the boomers are halfway responsible for this. Because the boomers do believe in this, obviously, they have been coopted into believing it. And that is, if it is in fact, about so called free speech. And if it is, in fact, a marketable commodity, you do it. But there are a lot of marketable commodities out here, that we are, in fact, say like, probably going down a blind alley on, that we need to begin to take a look at a little bit more. So, but now, as long as we have the time, the immediacy of the internet and the immediacy of let us say the cyberspace it is going to be very difficult healing the- this thing for the next 20 odd years or 20 or 30 year, but I think Senator Muskies point was very well taken. We are still fighting the Civil War. We are still fighting the revolutionary war in this country, okay, this type of thing. So that healing has never occurred, I mean, has never completely taken shape. Okay, and you know, there is one book out that has said, and turns that the Hare Krishnas of all people wrote "Dope Incorporated." Have you ever seen that book? 1:44:55 SM: No. 1:44:56 RJ: Okay, well, anyway, it came out about 25 years ago, and they said in no uncertain terms that Great Britain was one of the major problems, in terms- and documented it pretty well- of the major reasons why we had such a drug problem in this country, I mean a drug problem this country and Great Britain, while it does have a drug problem, not as bad as here. And they actually did some-some research to show this, okay, but now the point is, so now that means about what I mean there I am simply saying that America, Great Britain has suffered in the US of A and got it was fight and all over the country now, that it does not commit any major troops or anything like that. You see what I mean? So, they are still fighting the Revolutionary War by in fact, one analysis, allowing the US of A to in fact, go around the world and police the world, fuck them. 1:45:46 SM: Yeah, good point. Going to make sure this is working here. [audio cuts] What are your thoughts on these former leaders of the left who have now totally condemned their past, are writing books like Cora Witts and [Peter] Collier, who decided that what they did in the past was totally wrong. And so, they have written books like "Destructive Generation," basic, condemning anybody that was ever involved in the left in the movement. And we have seen, I have seen quite a few of these books coming out recently. It is part of the, I guess, a good way of attacking the boomers in that era, and those who are involved in those types of issues. 1:46:25 RJ: Well, but I think it is also a part of becoming, if you may, going from one stage of the realization stage into the examination stage it is a process of growing old. It happens that people think back and reflect on things that they have done. So psychologically, what is happening there is there is a kind of a catharsis that is going on, cleaning out one's mind, giving it a different giving some things that one has done, it is a kind of a repentance, okay. I do not think that it can ever be helped. I mean, as Muhammad Ali said, great philosopher, a man who thinks the same way at 50, as he did at 20, has lost 30 years of his life. Okay, so then in that regard, I think it is it is impossible for one not to completely alter one's thoughts, by virtue of the process of living is a process of change, and one who invite things identically and does ident- well, if you think identically the way that you did at 20, if you do at 50, as you will at 50, then obviously, you going to act the same way. But if you alter that, and then so then therefore, some people are feeling that same pain that we are talking about that some of the people from Vietnam have experienced, they [inaudible] for documenting it, now I am not against people writing books, but I do know that there are some people who do not let things die, because, for example, they are hustling, okay. And there are some people who do it for a legitimate healing purpose. And that book that that person is writing probably is-is beneficial to other people who are still feeling the pain, because they do not have the medium to say it. So when they read it, they can, therefore cathart themselves, they can vicariously cathart. 1:48:22 SM: Good point there, how am I trying to hustle with this book. 1:48:24 RJ: That is okay. [Inaudible] 1:48:26 SM: The basic premise I have in this book is, I had not even thought about that I just want to do something to create better understanding, where you get a wide variety of perspectives, and to not be judgmental toward any individual that I am speaking to, is to let the others read these interviews, and let them judge to know that people are still thinking about it trying to create a better understanding between those who are for and against the war. Also, to try to understand where conservative liberals think today and how they are somewhat judgmental toward an entire generation. Where in reality, there is much more, you can never generalize anything, because it is a very complex issue- 1:49:05 RJ: That is right. 1:49:06 SM: -As everything is. What I am trying to do here in this next segment is to just give you some names of some individuals who were obviously well known to all boomers, they may not be known to some of our gen X people. But just some basic comments on your thoughts, whether you feel these people were positive or negative influences in America. And also secondly, what your thoughts might be in terms of how boomers may look at these individuals, not only then and now, the first two are Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. 1:49:37 RJ: Again, from one perspective, they, they were very important during the early (19)70s, and so forth. But now, they tend to add credence to my hypothesis that we are, in fact driven by the buck. Because especially Miss Fonda, who has married one of the richest men in the country and one of the most powerful men in the world, and so forth. And she has all of her little mechanisms- she is selling her name. She is, that is her hustle, okay. So then so then therefore, I do not hear her talking, she may be using her money I therefore I cannot say she may be using her money to support social causes, rather than her making trips to Vietnam and places like this. She could very well be doing that. I do not know. But demonstrably now what I see her doing all the time is in the ballpark eating ice cream with Ted Turner. So then, and I have incidentally, I have one of her treadmills in my house. Okay, which is a non-motorized one. So I think it was a good treadmill. I like it is somebody telling me my doctor was saying one thing about Jane Fonda's treadmill is that they do not have any motor to break down them. And that was absolutely right, it was a darn good investment. So then I do have that. But now and Hayden is now doing his political thing. Is that right? In California, 1:51:01 SM: He is going to be at the convention this next week as a delegate for California. 1:51:04 RJ: Okay, fine. So then he decided that he was going when we, as a child, you act as a child, and when you become an adult, you throw those childish things away. So, then I got to say that I that does not surprise me. For a person who is rational, I do not expect that they would not fight, c'est la vie. Hayden would be more of an example of a person who, in fact, in my judgment, decided to keep his-his cars out for public scrutiny. It is a little bit difficult when Jane Fonda marries for example, as I say, somebody like Ted Turner, but I do not know what they do behind the scenes. See, I just do not know that. And when she is out front with marring him, and then all of a sudden, she retreats, apparently, I do not keep up with her daily itinerary, okay, so I cannot say. 1:51:54 SM: How about Lyndon Johnson? 1:51:56 RJ: Lyndon Johnson will always be remembered with a positive legacy, in my judgment, in terms of giving the little guy a shot, okay. And I think that he will singly in history go down as a president, to have done more to try to give the African America before we had all the other minority- a shot at a piece of the pie. I think he will go down in history as being a great politician as well, there is no question about it. He was a great politician. I think Lyndon Johnson, however, though, will be used by conservatives. And as he has been used now, there will be programs of the Great Society, the two that I know is still going on are Head Start and Upward Bound, okay, the rest of them have just devolved, been all wiped out. And they were designed to give the-the less fortunate people in our society, the more oppressed people in our society, an opportunity to get ahead. There is nothing like that anymore. So he, Lyndon Johnson's the thought of him still for the boomers who were committed to civil rights, and to human rights, still has a very special place in their hearts. 1:53:26 SM: But he was also caught up in that Vietnam trap, you know, the Vietnam War. 1:53:30 RJ: Yes. Yeah. In terms of the Vietnam War, it was obvious that it-it caught it was a precipitating event that caused him to actually resign from the pres- I mean to not seek the presidency again, okay. It is no question, and I think his failing health as well. But I think in terms of the historical period, that he could only do what his advisers were telling him to do. So then, therefore, it is just a matter of taking it and placing Lyndon Johnson with anybody else, and they would have done the same thing. 1:54:05 SM: How would you put John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? 1:54:10 RJ: Kennedy always, but well both of them gave the aura of, gave the impression that they, too were for change. That is what I think they will both be remembered by. And they were also they gave the aura of the emergence of the of the, the emergence of the importance of youth in making decisions and playing a role in our society. And I think that that aura has, in fact continued on because before JFK, age did not appear to be that much of an issue about Presidents. But now that is definitely an issue and it has stayed with us for a long period of time, okay. So then and again, it was hoped, because here was a Catholic and a young person, and someone from New England who in fact could get to be president. So they get and his, and also it kept, it certainly kept with the both of them the whole notion that nepotism is a reality. 1:55:20 SM: How do you, this is a brief takeoff. That, that John Kennedy in particular is more of a pragmatic politician, and unless he was [inaudible] political pluses getting involved, for example, in the [inaudible] that was initiated by Harris Walker, who basically made that recommendation, and then, and certainly African Americans linked up with him, but he did not make a whole lot of decisions unless they were pragmatic. And so that was- he has been criticized as someone who was more pragmatic, sometimes Bobby Kennedy is looked upon as someone who was really evolving at the time in (19)68. A true compassion was really in Bobby as opposed to John, who was more pragmatic. You see that in between the two? 1:56:01 RJ: Well, we, Bobby for was not, Bobby was not inside the beltway type of politician. And maybe in Boston, he was okay. He was getting a B, I think, operating at that level, but he was kind of a hatchet man, kind of cruel. You know, in other words, and crude, I should say, kind of crude, and supposedly very cool, too. I mean, for people who knew him that he did not pull any punches, and so forth. So consequently, I think you are right there, he was an idealist at that point in time. But now another thing, while JFK was said to have been very practical, if you take a look at history, JFK is actually-actually was the driving force behind affirmative action, you will actually find that in terms of, he was getting ready to sign the executive order. He had, in fact, I am trying to think- was it Shultz? Whom was in fact say like, working under him at that time. But in June of (19)93, he was getting ready to issue the executive order, in June 22 (19)63. And he was actually kicked off our formative action, they actually use that word. And, and three months, four months later, he was assassinated. Now, a lot of folks do not know that, that in fact, it came into reality in terms of affirming, believe it or not, under Richard Nixon, when-when it was actually signed, it has never been a law. That was when most, you know, everybody always says affirmative action law. It was never a law. It was an affirmative action, an executive order 110243 or something like that. Look it up. But now, but JFK was the impetus behind that, all right. And if you take a look at that, then, so he had a lot of ideals, that while he was he was practical, and so forth. And he was sage, and he knew national politics, itself. And he will always be questioned about some of the decisions that he made, especially the Bay of Pigs thing, right. And that type of thing. He is always going to be suspect in history. And I do not, I do not know if, for example, 50 years from now, I really do not know if history is going to be good to JFK, okay. Because of all of the things that we do not know about the assassination that is eventually going to be known. 1:58:31 SM: That is right. I think it is supposed to come out in the year [inaudible], a long way off. 1:58:35 RJ: That is a long way off. 1:58:37 SM: It will be revealed then though, if the family is okay-ed it to be revealed. In fact, I think Teddy Kennedy is now the subject, I think Teddy Kennedy knows more than anyone, but he is you know, not going to reveal it to the world. 1:58:49 RJ: That is right. So, then I really do not think right now, what our perception of JFK is going, is now is certainly going to change once all of that all we know and all is known about that. That assassination is revealed. 1:59:04 SM: A couple other people here and I got quite a few of them, Huey Newton and Angela Davis. Now let me reflect that at the end I have had different commentaries from different individuals. Some people's whole slogan, you have heard this term, "Everybody has their 15 seconds or 15 minutes" [inaudible] what you comment, I have had one person who said that [inaudible] society at that time [inaudible] radical and Angela Davis, even though she was smart, and an intellect, is a communist. And I think what the term is, they had their 15 minutes of glory and that was it. How would you rate both Huey Newton and Angela Davis? 1:59:42 RJ: I think to, they meant different things to the Black intelligentsia, the Black intelligentsia boomers now, okay, see them as heroes. I am not so sure that they made that much a differen- and-and that a white intelligencia saw them as hero. That is right, I think it is a class thing here. I do not think that the- and the media, of course, they were exciting to follow and this type of thing. And but obviously, Huey Newton had a lot, and we are going to find out something else about that, it is questionable as to whether Huey Newton was killed the way he was killed. Huey Newton had very significant political implications in the state of California, among the Black intelligentsia. Huey Newton was in fact, when he was killed, had just I am told now, had just received a PhD. 2:00:44 SM: Yes. within about three to four months, and I have the book- 2:00:48 RJ: Was he going to get it or had just received it? 2:00:50 SM: I think he had his PhD. 2:00:51 RJ: Yeah, he had jus- yeah. 2:00:52 SM: And he was caught selling drugs? I could not I could not see the contrast. 2:00:55 RJ: No. 2:00:56 SM: Does not make any sense. 2:00:57 RJ: No, that was probably that- that was probably, that was very suspect. Just like we were saying about, I cannot think of, AD was that Martin Luther's brother, AD King? 2:01:09 SM: Oh, yes, the yes. 2:01:10 RJ: Yeah. Yeah, there is something suspect about that. And there is something suspect about what happened to Huey Newton. But Huey Newton was a very recognizable name and face in the state of California. And with his getting that PhD, it would ascend him to possible to the statute of Willie Brown, it would have. Huey Newton had more name recognition in the most popular state in the country than Willie Brown, among the black intelligentsia, and people of East LA, and, and people of San Diego, that whole Boomer generation there. So therefore, it was a reason why Huey Newton was killed. 2:01:11 SM: Yeah, who drowned. Of course, he was living in Oakland at the time. 2:01:55 RJ: Yes. 2:01:56 SM: Yeah, I can remember that, I can remember reading that he was shot to death walking down the street, and that did not make a lot of sense. I just, I could not, I just made no sense. And that was where right and that was the end of it. 2:02:08 RJ: I mean, that is the way to go, okay. Did it pop? 2:02:11 SM: Oh, no, that was [inaudible] 2:02:12 RJ: Okay. Okay, so now- 2:02:14 SM: And Angela, she is teaching the University of California Santa Cruz. She is there now as a full professor. 2:02:19 RJ: Okay. Now, again, Angela Davis. First of all, if people never did completely understand communism, and they do not know just how much communism we have going on in this country right now, when you really think about I think they were making a move yesterday was a major move and moving further away from communistic, if you may, economic principles in terms of welfare, but it is still limited. Communism is-is what Angela was, in fact, advocating for that time. And what is actually going on in this country is not that far away. We have more communism right now in the USA than they do in Russia. Right now. Okay, with the state provides more to people right now. See, we take away one thing, and that is when the state is providing that is the communism right. So, when you take away for example, one day, you take a wel- when you change your welfare laws, and you take them and you turn them around, but the next day you provide for universal medical care, Medicare, a medical-medical insurance, so then for all intents and purposes, you are just trading off one for the other. But and then you say you actually going to give a block grant to the states to run their welfare system for the bill that Clinton signed yesterday, that is nothing but typical communism. Okay, so then in that regard, it is another one those conceptual terms that incarcerate people to bring about, they keep this this conflict going. That we must have to have democracy. Because if everybody start saying, fire up the furnaces, we got a problem. Okay. I mean, I am talking about people got [inaudible] five departments for all the liberals, [inaudible] no, we should not have a one. So that is what the Founding Fathers, I think, did do in that great constitution, which is not a voluminous thing. And that is it provides to ensure that there is conflict. There is conflict. 2:04:25 SM: That is, seems to be getting stronger and stronger. 2:04:27 RJ: But guess what, you can never have a totalitarian state like that. 2:04:32 SM: That is right. 2:04:33 RJ: As long as you can keep conflict going, you will never have a totalitarian state. So many of the Supreme Court decisions that have in fact, say precipitated the area of one constituency, made another one feel good, and vice versa. So then in that regard, that is really what democracy, the lifeblood of democracy is conflict. 2:04:54 SM: And I will never forget when I was in California, the Bakke decision when that came out, I think in (19)79. Wow. The conflict was out there in the press and everything that happened at that time. Or the affirmative action decision in California right now. Yes. 2:05:10 RJ: Okay. And that is, that is bringing about a lot of conflict. But you have to live a while to get to where you can understand these things, okay. 2:05:19 SM: Well, and there is this I think there is some truth to this fact, too, that the more you know, the less you know. 2:05:23 RJ: And the more questions you write. 2:05:25 SM: Yes, definitely. Timothy Leary. Anything, your thoughts on him? 2:05:31 RJ: Hustler. [laughter] 2:05:35 SM: He has got a brand-new book out by the way. 2:05:37 RJ: Bless his, may his soul rest in peace, you know- 2:05:40 SM: His ashes are going to space, I think. 2:05:41 RJ: Is that right? 2:05:42 SM: Yeah, part of his ashes. 2:05:44 RJ: That was his desire? 2:05:46 SM: Yes. 2:05:46 RJ: Okay. 2:05:47 SM: I saw, I think the next space capsule, well his ashes are going to be going up there, in a satellite [inaudible] will be permanently up there. 2:05:54 RJ: Well, I, now that, Timothy Leary never really appealed to me back there in the early (19)70s I guess it was. It never, he really never appealed to me because I thought that it was almost like carnal knowledge. Okay, that he was taking advantage of young minds. Okay, for a self-hurting reason. I cannot see how spacing out on acid was going to have any redeemable effects on anybody. Okay. I mean, even on a chimpanzee or on a cobra or what have you is just not going to in fact have any-any human- a Cobra differently. But if you just put him out in the wild and give him an acid it would not have he could not de- or she could not defend him or herself. So consequently, I just never really got into that. And I think people use that to actually as a subterfuge to-to be in denial. Okay. 2:06:57 SM: How about people like Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? 2:07:01 RJ: I think they served a purpose. I really do. I think that they are being at that convention, and what have you in (19)68. That convention was very important. That convention made people look at law enforcement and the power of people like Richard Dale. Okay, and in terms of say, the they were part of democratic society, Students for Democratic Society, were not they? What were the- 2:07:27 SM: They were the hippies. 2:07:28 RJ: They were the yippies, okay. 2:07:29 SM: Youth International Party. 2:07:31 RJ: Okay, fine. I think that they made people again, in terms of the role that they played, not just for in fact, say, getting away and moving to the hills and things of this nature. And so far, I do not think that that was necessary. I think it made people think about the alternatives. But I really do think that the that Abbie Hoffman and Rubin and the kind, and the publicity, they got in New York-New York, Chicago, and in that (19)68 convention, I believe that it actually had some impact, because it got international attention. 2:08:04 SM: How do you respond to the criticism of them that they never grew up? For example, Jerry Rubin although did change and was actually doing quite well. And say Ronnie, that he died doing something illegal, jaywalking in Los Angeles, he got hit by a car. But Abbie Hoffman killed himself just outside of Philadelphia couple of years back and he only had 2000 in the bank. He should have been very rich with all the lectures he had done, books he has written, gave, had given all his money away, wrote a note that when they found them that "No one was listening to me anymore." And that was why he killed himself. Now, I when I saw that, I says, "Is that symbolic of the boomers?" or at least those who were involved, no one has listened to them anymore. Or, or maybe a lot of them have gone on with their lives, but a lot of just a lot of those issues. Nobody has listened to those issues anymore. Some of them that still exist. So when you look at the death of an Abbie Hoffman, he was more true to his cause than Jerry Rubin who went into making a lot of money, whereas Abbie Hoffman went underground. 2:09:07 RJ: [Inaudible] 2:09:09 SM: Yeah, and then and then he was a Hudson, he was doing [audio cuts] 2:09:16 RJ: He was a, his testament was, in his last will and testament, "I want you to remember me as a spoiled brat," you know, he, and "I get people to listen to me, so I have a temper tantrum," and the temper tantrum was, I kill myself. 2:09:33 SM: That is a good observation, because somebody said that. Another person said that too, that. But do you think that getting apart from him, that some of those issues that were happening in the late (19)60s early (19)70s, that he, that maybe that message signifies our truth, that no one is listening anymore. In other words, there is no more racism anymore, or it is not as bad as it was back then. So, let us you know, it is, it is still got a long way to go for improvement. But it is not as it is not a major issue today. So thus, let us not, so that I think that is what he was trying to say there. 2:10:11 RJ: Well, it is still a major issue. And unfortunately, probably what he had done was that he was playing to the same crowd. And the same, reading the same data and recognizing that there were other forms of, of these issues. And if you look, if he had looked carefully enough, these are universally issues, even the issue of racism biblical antiquity, literature will in fact say, show you that racism was a reality, you know, years before Christ. So consequently, it will be a reality years and eons after we are in Saigon. So then, provided there is a world. Okay, now, that is a question. I mean, in terms of the environment, that is a very significant issue. So then, but he was not getting the responses probably that he got at one time because people are so bread and butter right now. And that is by being bread and butter. I mean, people just are not articulating, it is just like being a subscriber to a cable channel. It is so much dog- I mean, to a cable network of televisions and satellite- you got so much to choose from now. So, it is no sense in talking about did you see I Love Lucy last night, because hey, that is a stupid question as anybody now, okay, why. Because it got so many darn choices. 2:11:34 SM: That is right. 2:11:35 RJ: But see, it used to be you had to, at one time you see mom and dad all looked at the NBC channel. But even I just think I am not even getting into ABC. I remember what it was only NBC. Right, then that was CBS and ABC. So you had three, then it was a UHF channel. But now, now, it is stupid, everybody got so many other things that they are consuming, that he missed the boat, that he had begun, he was still believing egotistically that he was the center of the universe. 2:12:05 SM: That is a good point. I got quite a few of these here, Richard Nixon. 2:12:13 RJ: Well, Nixon, interestingly, apparently is perceived as somebody very significant in history. And the reason I said that is when I looked along his gray side when they televised his film, first of all, he as the president was ostensibly disgraced. And when they had his funeral in San Clemente, they had all of those debates or dignitaries that he ever knew and who had ever been anything in Washington, and all the networks carried. Okay, now that says something about it, about Richard Nixon, the man. It is no question about it, that he was on an ego trip as well. But interestingly, from a perspective of an African American man, Nixon is going to, history will show in terms of the chronicle, that African Americans made more progress under Nixon than any other president. That data are available with respect to housing, with respect to jobs, with respect to money, with respect to the SBA with respect to the 8(a) project that was developed to give Black people, at that time that was before it was women and minority was for Black people. Okay, this section 8(a) of the Small Business Act of (19)69 or, I think it was or (19)71, it is going to show that, okay. Black colleges did better under Richard Nixon than any other president. A lot of folks do not know that. So he was so slick, that he could have he could have things going. And that was why he had the name Tricky Dick. Okay, he has things going that history is going to be good to Nixon on. And that Nixon also, in fact, is going to show that he did in fact, have, he started this whole thing of over coordinating dealing with China and the, the Soviet Union. Okay, he is going to get credit for that, all right. So then we look at it realistically and empirically, I think history is going to be good to Nixon. If you look at what it meant to Black people at the time, I am not sure that how much of this did not ride in on the crest of the waves from the residual of Lyndon Baines Johnson, okay, because, and I could have insights on that. But now in the way he was operating, apparently, in the White House, it was obviously criminal what he was doing and he knew it and that was why he had been invited to go ahead and resign rather than be impeached. Okay, so now there is no question about that, he overextended his power is no question. But it does appear as though he was actually making a resurgence. People were giving him a lot of credit and so forth for the things that, calling upon his ambassadorship, free will ambassadorship that he was-was capable of doing. But at the time that he was in office, most African American and significant number of American people really were suspect of him. He never was completely really trusted. 2:15:17 SM: Those enemies list, remember the enemies list? 2:15:20 RJ: Yeah, I know. [crosstalk] on there do we start talking about empirical growth and development and things that happened, history is going to be good to Nixon. Things happened when he was president. 2:15:34 SM: He had that amazing quality of [audio blip] all throughout his life and towards the end. 2:15:40 RJ: And given and giving and getting things done. Nixon, things got done under Nixon. That was just very interesting. I think history is going to be good to him. 2:15:53 SM: A lot of people here include George McGovern, your thoughts on him? 2:15:58 RJ: Too good. Okay. McGovern was seen as I mean, it was a backlash, that McGovern was always a very intellectually astute man. I think he had an excellent mind. Had was a, was a great senator, South Dakota, right? 2:16:20 SM: [agreement] 2:16:21 RJ: Great senator from South Dakota, excellent for representing his state. But not for in fact say like, I mean for, now this the way I saw him, but not in fact say, for representing where America was at that time. Americans were still ambivalent about the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was, it will be seen that it ended under Nixon, you know that. So consequently, Nixon was on a roll at the time. And McGovern was seen as too weak to middle cla- so I was in Ohio at the time. The people in Columbus, they just saw him as a very weak person, and I am talking about white and Black, predominantly white people. I saw him in my judgment as being very weak. And they did not want that perception of a leader at that time, okay. And they did not want an intellect that that at that time. The economy, or we were coming off of, it was unsure, and they were taut and nothing we had to wage and price stuff. Remember that? Yeah, when they froze wages and froze prices at the store, the inflation was zooming. You know? 2:17:32 SM: I was at the Columbus airport when he came there because I just graduated from Ohio State and was that my first job at Ohio University at Lancaster. 2:17:38 RJ: Okay, yeah. 2:17:40 SM: And I remember driving out to the [inaudible] driving out to that airport with [inaudible] I could not see him. He did not even hardly leave the plane area, got off, spoke and then he took off [laughs] but I remember that as plain as day. Eugene McCarthy. Intellect, extremely bright, too bright for the public. Or to understand. He was even a poet, you know? Yeah, he wrote poetry, lotta folks did not know that, okay. True. Good senator. For representing what was that- Wisconsin? 2:18:16 RJ: Minnesota. 2:18:16 SM: Minnesota. I knew it was one of them, okay. Right, [inaudible] this senator for representing that body of people. But the Americans could never buy into anybody that genteel. Let us see, Martin Luther King Jr. 2:18:32 RJ: History will be very good to Dr. King. He did he represented hope for the country. He is a, he is a credit to America will always be in a credit to America. His philosophies will at one time be quoted just as Mahatma Gandhi's or Chairman Mao, I think that there will become Qingyan philosophy school, that will eventually get there. And I think that is in fact, what were young African Americans will eventually open up in terms of nonviolence in everything that they do, that that is going to catch a hold. And he gave again, he had a lot of theological impact with respect to his outreach ministry, caused all churches to in fact be different and to put, and caused the Vatican to look at things differently. And also, his ministry. And the and his leading the ministry redefined what a minister is supposed to be about. And furthermore, he will always be remembered as the champion of human rights. I think that what he did for human rights, is-is probably not, is underrated in terms of, of the movement. If you look at solidarity, and if you look at the slogan, and if you look at the [inaudible] raids, and you know what I mean, and that type of thing, and if you look at their singing We Shall Overcome and things of this nature, that has become the battle cry for everybody who is perceived to have been say, oppressed. So the human rights movement was, was spawned from that Civil Rights movement which Civil Rights, and Martin Luther King will always be remembered synonymous. 2:20:29 SM: As I said, from going in his church down in Atlanta, the embodiment of what he was all about, and certainly what his dad is all about. I am sure a lot of churches had the same feeling. But the Ebenezer has to know that. We are all appreciated. We are all equal. There were no judging of anyone. And certainly, Reverend Robert could be proud, and certainly Reverend Victor, King has got to be in his glory. Seeing the Reverend Victor there, that young minister and [audio blip] coming minister, in fact there is several of them. Barbara Jordan when she died, you may have seen the funeral on C span. The minister in Houston, Texas, what a young man he is, the early (19)30s out of New York City, who was not, was her minister, and one of the most important qualities that she possessed is that when she came to that church as she was a, well, she was a well-known figure that could have sat in the front pew. But she wanted to be treated like [audio blip] that was what they came into. She had these great qualities about her, but she was a petite. [audio blip] 2:21:31 RJ: Wow. 2:21:31 SM: Queen of the people, she was of the people. So, just a couple other names, and we got a couple of questions that end it here. Robert McNamara, just a few thoughts on it, obviously some of these people are. 2:21:43 RJ: Well, Robert McNamara. Great rhetorician, had an excellent mind, will not be remembered as a great secretary of defense because of the Vietnam War. Okay. On the other hand, was extremely persuasive, had awesome power. Okay, with respect to the Johnson administration, and so forth, and Johnson, right? Yeah, he was the Johnson admin- he will, but he will not be remembered as a great secretary of defense because the Vietnam War, but had a lot, had the ability to handle a lot of information, which was persuasive and kept the American people kind of ambivalent about whether they ought to support the war or not support the war. You know, he was a, if you remember, the one thing I remember about him that he reminds me and maybe Ross Perot picked up some things from him was that he was so good with charts and graphs and things like that, you know. 2:22:52 SM: To the General Motors, because that was where he came from. 2:22:54 RJ: Yeah. 2:22:55 SM: And the- a whiz kid at General Motors. 2:22:56 RJ: Right. 2:22:57 SM: Of which, if you read that book, four of them killed themselves, committed suicide, of the original 10. [audio blip] Wizkid General Motors, where they came from, because he [audio blip] have the money in that position, why he went to, became Secretary of Defense to earn what? 50, 60 thousand, well he already made his money. But it was interesting that the four of the 10 killed themselves. [audio blip] Hubert Humphrey. 2:23:24 RJ: Great, again, great senator from Minnesota, too genteel for the country. At the time that he was coming out, people he, he was victimized by the ambivalence again, that people had about the Vietnam War, and so forth. He was victimized because he was trying to succeed I will say JFK, and I do not think that, you know, at that time, he just was history, the epoch in history where he was, did not allow him to in fact say, like, do what I think he has the potential to do. But then again, I do not think that he was ever, he was not electable in Calif- I mean, California was not going to be for him, Ohio was not going to be for him and things of this nature. He was a good senator, but he was not the one that dealt, he was not going to be able to operate on a on a national stage. 2:24:27 SM: How about George Wallace? 2:24:28 RJ: George Wallace, he repented, but I am not so sure he would have repented, if in fact, say like he had not been made a quasi, let us say, invalid. So then he did nothing good for the country at that time. I do not see any redeemable value that George Washington played for the country during that he was divisive- 2:24:55 SM: Wallace, not Washington. 2:24:56 RJ: I meant as I said, I mean Wallace. Yeah, you know what I meant, yeah, okay. George [laughter] George Wallace did at that time, okay, so consequently, that is one of the character traits that I would have to look at in terms of saying so called national leaders. And he was very divisive. He was a racist. Wherever he is now he is a racist, it is just that he is not, he is probably trying to in fact say, like, repent by virtue, obviously- he is still living right. 2:25:28 SM: Oh he is not very well. 2:25:29 RJ: No, I know, but just barely hanging on. Yeah. So then in that regard, wherever he is, now, he is at the core, I would like to think that he has forgiven himself and therefore is not a racist right now. Okay, he did make some statements that suggest, I read somewhere a few years ago, that he was not a racist anymore and this type of thing. But he was hustling, that was what he was doing. He found him a concept on which he could hustle and hustled that racist concept. 2:25:31 SM: Yeah. How about the Berrigan brothers and Dr. Benjamin Spock? 2:26:06 RJ: I think the priests- both of them were priests, right? 2:26:09 SM: Yeah. 2:26:09 RJ: Okay. I think they were committed to what they were doing because they took some real chances, in terms of being involved in actually violent demonstrations, were not there? 2:26:20 SM: Yeah, and they were responsible for burning the draft cards. 2:26:23 RJ: Yeah, I remember that. And then dumping blood somewhere, or at least some bolly blood, I do not know, if it really blood in some, one of the draft stations or something. I think they were very committed, okay, to what they were doing, and that they and to, in fact, go against the edicts of the church to do it, the Catholic Church. I think that they, that showed their commitment. They therefore would have to say, would be considered as somebody that did have an impact on ending the war. And but of course, you could say that they also had an impact on people having a bitter taste in their mouth about the war. Okay. Now Dr. Spock provided this catechism that insight, in my judgment, a lot of parents, he has reversed his field now. This permissiveness that he talks about and advocated. He has now run a recent talk shows as well, I have not read anything that he has done. 2:27:19 SM: He has a book out in 19, uh, came out a year ago, hardback. 2:27:23 RJ: Okay. Have you read it? 2:27:24 SM: No, I have not read it. They say he has, he has changed [audio blip] 2:27:29 RJ: I think that he was misguided. In terms of say, he gave people some real deleterious advice on how, about child rearing. There is no question about it. This permissiveness that we know of now, and what some parents are still hung up on, okay. Really did foster a lot of their misguided thoughts. 2:27:50 SM: How about Muhammad Ali? 2:27:52 RJ: Will go down in history as one of the greatest fighters, obviously, but a great humanitarian, who was extremely courageous. And because he was one of the first, he was the first public figure that spoke out and said he was against the ware, okay. So again, and that was very much, that was 19, I know I will not forget it, that was (19)63. When he was saying whenever he was drafted, he preempted the war. And when he was drafted, said that he was not going to go, if I am not mistaken, it was about that time. 2:28:27 SM: I think it was, I am not sure the exact time- you are right, though, everything- I am not sure the exact time he came to Columbus. When I saw him in Columbus. And when I was working at Ohio University, he had been stripped of his title. 2:28:39 RJ: Yeah. 2:28:40 SM: And he came to- 2:28:40 RJ: He came back. 2:28:40 SM: -the daycare center and he spoke at the Ohio theatre and what [inaudible], because man, the people of Columbus, well the sort of nature that that city was, they did not come out in large numbers. 2:28:42 RJ: No. 2:28:42 SM: I was there in an upstairs area, he was paid $5,000. It is a memory I will never forget. He spoke as a really good speech about his protest against the war in Vietnam. He did not talk hardly anything about boxing or anything, it was all about the war. And after it was all over, he took the $5,000 that he was paid and said, "I do not want anything here. You can take it." And that is the person he was. 2:29:11 RJ: And people never saw, they saw the flamboyant side that he was, but if you look at some of his history, and what have you, he had a heart of gold. Okay. And everybody saw him and but not everybody else has repented on him. History, the current contemporary history is being good to him and I think it is going to even be better to him, as was attested to his being selected to light the charge at the at the Olympics. Okay, I think that was symbolic of just how much the world loves Muhammad Ali. 2:29:44 SM: He is the most recognized person in the entire world. 2:29:46 RJ: That is right. 2:29:48 SM: John Kennedy is probably the second or third because they Kennedy and Muhammad Ali's pictures, like in villages all over the world in the smallest places. And when you think of it Kennedy, has been dead since (19)63. And Muhammad Ali has been out of the limelight since the late (19)70s. That is just amazing. I, you kind of wonder too what, if Muhammad Ali did not have Parkinson's disease, and he was able to speak, he would obviously be [inaudible] more mature, what he could be doing and helping today's society. I want to make sure I got a couple of key questions at the end and I want to make sure I do not use all of [ inaudible] getting down there. And that was my last, couple other names here, you can just, just a couple of brief words on all of them, Spiro Agnew. 2:30:06 RJ: Yeah [inaudible] No redeeming values [laughs] as I can see a whatsoever to the time that he was in office except to make people see how bad it could be. 2:30:46 SM: Okay. Sam Ervin. 2:30:49 RJ: Great man, I was very always intrigued by his simplicity. And that he could speak volumes with very, very parsimoniously and his use of a southern parable. And the way that he would always have kind of a self-demeaning type of humor about him, that lets you that will allow you to know that he has already seen where you are coming from. 2:31:18 SM: One of the important things, I got a couple of books by him and one of them is signed. And that is, that he was against integration. 2:31:26 SM & RJ: At one time. 2:31:28 SM: So, when you look at this, this senator who really no one knew about until sort of the latter part of his life, and see some of the people, there people always, that is another thing about today, you always got to find the negative in something, you can never, you cannot be perfect. 2:31:43 RJ: That is exactly right. 2:31:44 SM: John Dean. 2:31:49 RJ: John Dean was, he was at that time, I guess you could say, he was what you would consider where most boomers were at that period in their lives, and that is doing whatever was necessary to acquire power. And that was why I saw him, that he was being used, that he in fact cut a deal to save his neck obviously, as most people will do. So that is not anything that bothers me. 2:32:24 SM: [Inaudible] doing it now. 2:32:25 RJ: Yeah, that is exactly right. Cutting a deal to save his neck. And, but on the other hand, obviously very bright. Okay, but it was he had him a hustle and he was trying to get the best out of it. 2:32:39 SM: How about Daniel Ellsberg. 2:32:40 RJ: He had a lot of redeeming value in my judgment. He took he put his career on the line for what he was about, okay. And he knew that they were that there was going to be a backlash. The president cannot even get to a job in Washington, if you are blackballed. You know, it is just that powerful. If you blow the whistle, believe me, right now the president cannot get you a job. So then when a guy decides to do that, the only way the President gives you a job is that he says "Yes, I am going to put you on his staff or one of his [inaudible] staff, or get somebody somewhere else to give you a job" but you, it is hard to in fact say, once you a whistleblower, is difficult to get a job in the city. 2:33:27 SM: How about Barry Goldwater? 2:33:33 RJ: Goldwater I do not think was as bad as people thought he was when he came across as if though he was a, you know, a butthole. But I do not think he was as bad as people really thought he was at the time. I am not so sure history is going to be that bad to Goldwater, okay. When-when it was finally written, and people read it and do they interpretations. And if they look at the type of man that Goldwater was, and he did give a lot of himself to Arizona and things of this nature. He was very partisan, obviously. And that respect, he may not he was not-not going to be good for the country. But I think that is some stuff prior to his becoming Senator it is more speaks more about him, than when he became Senator. And his running for president was obviously about public relations disaster. 2:34:31 SM: [Audio blip] 2:34:39 RJ: Kind of say for example, I guess you can say that she was charming. She may got the she got the title of being kind of the, I guess you can say the maid of women's liberation and so forth, but in a way she was she was charming just enough to take away some of the credence from the women's liberation thing. I always thought that she was kind of manipulative, and that she really was not as staunch a feminist as she projected. 2:35:21 SM: And Ralph Nader. 2:35:24 RJ: I think Mr. Nader has done a lot for consumer protection. I really do, and for consumer causes. He lives what he preaches, he lives in a rooming house, you know. 2:35:34 SM: He does? 2:35:35 RJ: Yeah, he has. 2:35:36 SM: Where does he live? 2:35:38 RJ: I do not know where he live, but I know this. He lives in a boarding house. He has done this for the last 30 some years. He does not. I do not think he owns a car. You know, this type of thing. So, he is practicing what he is preaching, okay. So consequently, I got to in fact say there is some substance to a man that is practicing frugality, and right, and what have you, and living as I do not know what he does with the money that he makes, whether or not it gives it back to charity or what have you but he certainly does not seem to be in fact say-say [inaudible] 2:36:12 SM: I think that is all the names I had in the last, little area here is just mentioning Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and musicians of the year and the impact they had on boomers. 2:36:26 RJ: Well, I think it was a fad akin to rock music- I mean, rap music. I think that the youngsters nowadays, who will into rap music, is will always have an affinity toward it, because it was the music of their era. Just like for example, the Temptations and say the Four Tops and the Supremes were to me. You see what I mean. Therefore, I think it would be that affinity and drugs have always been a part of the modern musician's life, so then we do not really see it, and we almost kind of accepted that they are going to get caught up in the drugs and that some of our favorite heroes are going to in fact succumb to it, just like right now. Of all of the original Temptations are dead, okay. And-and I do not think any of them, Melvin Williams died last year, year before last, the one that had to base voice. And-and I do not think he was, I do not believe he was 50. He may not have been 50, but now okay, the rest of them all gone. And because they were alcoholics and things and Jerry, not Jerry but David rough and you know, was-was that is crack addicts up there, Philadelphia. 2:37:42 SM: Yeah, I remember that. 2:37:43 RJ: Yeah. 2:37:44 SM: Yep. Here, we got a little bit left and I still got another tape if we go over here. 2:37:50 RJ: I am going to have to cut it now see because, I mean after [inaudible] I am going to have to make it I got to get back home to my- I tell my wife I would be back by that time, okay. 2:38:00 SM: What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? 2:38:02 RJ: I think, I really do think it is going to be kind of the, probably it is going to be the, the freedom the "I" and the "me," is and that is the infamous one that it will have. The quest for the freedom. I think I think it will get a bad rap about how their children are turning out. I think that they will, the boomer generation is going to be overall seen as-as being a poor parental generation. I think they will be seen as being money hungry. You know, like yuppy. Okay. I think the yuppies is in that generation, is not it? 2:38:58 SM: Yeah. 2:38:59 RJ: Yeah. So, I think they are going to be seeing- 2:39:00 SM: Younger. The younger boomers. 2:39:03 RJ: The younger boomers? 2:39:04 SM: Not so much the older ones. Yeah. 2:39:06 RJ: Yeah, if you take [inaudible] from (19)46 to (19)60, right? (19)64. To (19)64. Those are the boomers. Okay, now, if you take that group, and if you take a look at them from what I have in fact saying, they are going to be yeah money hungry, money oriented. That is how I think we are going to see it, power hungry, self-centered. 2:39:39 SM: Is that the-the activism that took part in the boomer generation has transferred to their kids? 2:39:48 RJ: I do not think that children are active at all. Maybe the most sedentarian social issues of any generation. Well since-since Brown versus the Board- well, that is it, that is two generations [inaudible] they-they are they are the children are definitely less active, socially active than their parents. 2:40:09 SM: What do you think it is when their parents? What-what? 2:40:13 RJ: Parents, they have not had a need. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Roosevelt Johnson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Roosevelt ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Psychologists; College teachers; Johnson, Roosevelt--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Roosevelt Johnson was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. Dr. Johson died in 2015."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson (d. 2015) was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 160:18