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Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-08-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mike Roselle
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Audio
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128:16
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activism career."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness.</span>
Subject LCSH
Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews
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Title
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Interview with Mike Roselle
Contributor
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Roselle, Mike ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2011-08-04
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155b
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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128:16
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1996
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John J. Burns, 1921-2004
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John J. Burns (1921-2004) was New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"}">John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}">War protests; Nineteen sixties; Early nineteen seventies; Traditional American household; Drugs; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Vietnam veterans; Vietnam memorial; Broome County<br /></span></span>
<p></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
59:14
Subject LCSH
Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Burns
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: William Palmer
Date of interview: 1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:22
SM: My first question is, the boomer generation in the
(19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America?
00:48
JB: The boomer generation is being blamed?
00:52
SM: A lot of things that I hear, whether it be the Christian coalition or commentary for the Republican Party ̶ A lot of times they go back to events of the 1960s era to blame and then they start blaming the generation that grew up then
01:06
JB: Of course they [the boomers] were then in their teens or maybe 20 years old. Well, I think the (19)60s was an era when we went through very historic and difficult times. We had three assassinations, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. And I think early in the (19)60s there was great hope for our country among the young people that, you know, that generation slightly older than them [boomers]. And as a result of the assassination, I think I lost that hope. Mixed in with that was the feeling that the Vietnam War was not a war that we should be fighting and many, many people of that age group protested the war. I think the hippie movement was sort of a statement of their objections to what was happening in our country and to our country. And many of them have turned out to be conservative people. They grew out of it, in other words, I do not think they are to blame for anything that is wrong with our country. I think the problems in our country are caused by all problems that are covered here caused by economics and by social changes. Economics brings about social changes. For example, many families in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s had one parent at home with the children, young children as well as teenagers. And as time went on, to maintain, to make a living, both parents had to work. Of course a lot of women wanted to work anyway. They wanted to be more than just a housewife. So we end up with families with nobody home. And we also have growing [unintelligible] in regard to marriage. Marriage is not as permanent as it was in my generation. People get married and then they get divorced. Some people never marry, but they have children anyway. And these things have all created many problems, social problems. Also mixed within this same picture was the increase in drug use. Some of the people in that generation did a lot of drugs, particularly marijuana, and they got into stronger drugs. And if you saw pictures of the big gathering out at Woodstock, yeah. A lot of drug use going on there, a lot of smoking and all that. And a lot of experimentation with drugs that went on. I think the advent of drugs into society has taken a big toll as well. I think that many of them [boomers] toyed with it and then went off it and are now serious citizens with families and everything else. But there is some that ruin their lives.
05:31
SM: Bringing up some of these issues that divorce out in California ̶ 50 percent of people getting married get divorced. Yeah, almost 50 percent in our society are getting divorced. Certainly there was drug use during that period, but we see a tremendous rise of drugs now in our high schools and colleges. These are the sons and daughters of boomers. You have made a comment that you did not think that a lot of the problems in society today were based on the boomers. But you raised these issues.
06:02
JB: Right. I do not think they caused it, they lived through it. I do not think the boomers caused a lot of that. I mean, some of them caused drug use. Yeah. But they certainly did not cause the need for, for two parents to work. That was caused by cost of living [unintelligible], right? You may be right to a degree that they have a different attitude than their parents did, I am talking about the boomers now. About marriage, as I said, about family. And they, their generation, you know, brought about a lot of changes in the society and I think there are a lot of good people in the movement. I do not think they are trying to mess things up or anything like that. I think they are trying to live their lives. And they became more open. It was inevitable that there are a lot of people in bad marriages and it made sense that they get out of a bad marriage. While in my generation, they would stay in a bad marriage. And I am not an advocate of divorce. I am not. I can see there are times when divorce is better for everyone concerned. So now you got into, you know, the syndrome of not staying married or not even getting married. And still they have children. And the children pay the price for that.
07:56
SM: Yeah, it is just a general question. Based on everything you have been saying here and the questions I have been asking so far, looking at 1996 we could say that the boomers ̶ which is basically sixty-five million people who were born between 1946 to 1964. That is the category that uses that. That their impact is positive or negative in America. Too early to tell?
08:25
JB: I think it is early to tell. I think that for me, they are only 22 years old now. They are just getting out of college [youngest boomers, born in 1964, were thirty-two years old at the time of this interview]. I think that I do not know how to describe it exactly. But there are a lot of social problems about gangs. We were talking about this generation. We thought we were thinking that it was middle income people. Gangs are really a problem in the blighted areas, in the slums, they are a big social problem for communities. And so to answer your question, I think it is mixed. I think that some in that generation are causing more problems than prior generations and others are responsible people. I would not blame the whole generation, everybody in that generation, for problems that come along.
09:37
SM: We talked about the death of those three men, two of them that you knew quite well ̶ John and Robert Kennedy ̶ and Martin Luther King. I was like eleven, I think, when John Kennedy was killed. And it really affected me. It really did. Actually I was fourteen, excuse me. And then Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King, I was at SUNY Binghamton at the time that happened and was in a two month period of time.
09:47
JB: It was a real blow.
10:07
SM: When you read the literature on the (19)60s and early (19)70s, only 15 percent of the people were really involved in protest or activism of any kind. 85 percent went along with their normal daily activities. As the years progressed, what effects did those three deaths have on not only that 15 percent, but everyone ̶ whether it be the conscious or the subconscious? I know you were close to John and Robert Kennedy, and their deaths affected you personally. But what about the boomers of my era, like your children? What effect did these assassinations have on them as they grew older, raised families and tried to get involved in things?
10:52
JB: A lot of people lost hope for the future. It was still America, but they were worried about America being a place where leaders can be assassinated. They were worried about the fact that people that stand for something can be killed off. And then there was really no one that took their place in the eyes of that generation. They became discouraged, and I think a lot of them lost interest in voting and participating in government. While under John Kennedy, for example, he started the Peace Corps. He brought a lot of young people into government, he got people enthusiastic about the future of our country. And then when he was shot, and then followed by Bobby, it was like, people just lost hope. It took a long time to try to turn people around. It will never come around to the way it was; the enthusiasm, the thrill of being in one of those campaigns and that people still felt it is a great country and they wanted to do things to help make it better.
12:13
SM: Around the same time, trust in leadership [unintelligible].
12:21
JB: The Nixon Watergate stuff, people lost trust in their leaders and their government. The good guys were killed off and the bad guys were in charge. I think that is probably one of the reasons that some of them [boomers] really started having an attitude. They did not give a damn. They got into things they should not have.
12:50
SM: This is kind of a side note question, but if Bobby had lived, do you think he would have won it?
12:57
JB: I think he would have, yeah. I was involved in it. I was running the New York State campaign and we started when he first announced he was running against LBJ [Lyndon B. Johnson] ̶ LBJ was still campaigning at that point. It was around St. Patty's Day, in March. We started polling in New York State and it was all against him within the Democratic Party. We had been polling just Democrats for the primary. But as time went on, it began changing, changing, changing. LBJ dropped out and McCarthy was in the picture. But Bobby was emerging as a victor in New York. He had won in California before he was killed. It was a similar situation there. He had the emphasis, you know, going for him. We will never know really, but I think he could have pulled it off and I think he would have won.
13:57
SM: I think one of the greatest speeches I ever heard was an impromptu one Bobby gave in Indianapolis after Martin Luther King was killed.
14:04
JB: Oh, yeah, I remember that very well.
14:07
SM: And of course you see it when you go to Washington. What really amazes me, and I have been reading a lot of history, is that the Bobby Kennedy we saw on those committees early on, in the (19)50s, is not the same Bobby Kennedy we saw in (19)68.
14:22
JB: Absolutely. He did a [unintelligible] to become much more compassionate, more liberal minded than he was in those days. And what he said in Indianapolis to a black audience which he gathered in a black neighborhood. "Sorry, my brother was killed by a white man." It was an important thing to say.
14:58
SM: He knew that it was a dangerous area. Skellington right? Yeah.
15:04
JB: So I think that people who got into drugs experimentally, thinking it is just a temporary thing in their lives. You know, some of them did not realize how these drugs can hook them, how they can become addicted. And so I think we had more addiction problems than we did later on. The statistics show there is less kids in high school trying drugs than there used to be. But we still have a lot of drug activity here. And a lot more arrests recently that are bigger. We had a big arrest yesterday. We had another big trial a month ago, which showed that this one drug dealer made millions of dollars right here in Binghamton and Broome County. Somebody's using the drugs. It was not just the one hundred or two hundred people they complain about who moved up from New York City. Got to be thousands of people using drugs here. And destroying lives right in the middle class, in the upper classes. They caught a guy selling drugs in front of Vestal High School not too long ago. Right in front of the school. This is really bad. Terrible. So, It is an ongoing problem for the children of the boomers and the boomers participated, many of them in the drug scene, but many of them survived and straightened out their lives pretty well.
16:45
SM: So my next question is, what can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s is a period of activism, drugs and single minded issues. So many of the same issues remain. There are new ones and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between parents and today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomer's lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today.
17:20
JB: I think they could do a lot to help curtail drug use. They can tell their experience, they could tell them first hand and even if not themselves than somebody they knew, who had a real problem and that by flirting with drugs, they were only going to get into trouble. And I think they could do more of that and talk to their children. I know when I was the Democratic State Chairman, I was out of town a lot. And I regret it, but I was not around my kids as much as I should have been. I was around them all weekend every weekend. You know, I did not know what they were doing or where they were going. We had a big family, hard to keep track of everybody. So I think they owe it to their kids to make sure that they understand the dire consequences of drug use and not to experiment with them just for a lark. Alcohol use is also bad. It is an addictive chemical just like other drugs. They could set examples by not drinking in front of them or using pot or whatever they might like to use and train them along that way. I think the example is more effective. Sometimes parents say do not do what I do, do what I say. Parents say, do not do this and do not do that and then they do it themselves. You know, like, a kid comes home from using drugs and a drunken father balls them out. It does not really have a lot of impact, you know what I mean? But I think that they can set an example for their kids. This is one thing they can do for them that will be very useful. I know. I never drank, I did years ago before we were married. And kids now tell me that it meant a lot to them that I did not drink. Neither my wife nor I drank.
19:46
SM: You have kids that are boomers who have their own kids. They may also be getting kids ready to go to college or something down the road. What can you say about communicating and not being around your kids, but then spending quality time on weekends? What are your children teaching their kids, and what are they telling them about the experiences that they went through when they were young? What are boomers sharing with today's young people about Bobby Kennedy, Dr. King, John Kennedy, the civil rights movement, protests against Vietnam, the women's movement, the environmental movement? Do you think there is a sharing going on between boomers and their kids?
20:40
JB: I do not know. That is a good question. I think they should. They accomplished a lot. I think they are responsible for the end of the Vietnam War. And I think that work they have done on the environment has helped a lot. Legislators and chief executives do not propose or pass laws that are not popular. By demonstrating the need for environmental laws that a lot of people support, those laws came into being. I think that the women's movement is another example. One ̶ I think that they made a lot of progress. Certainly the civil rights movement has made a lot of progress. It still has a long way to go. If you go back to when I was a kid, I did not even think about it, you know? We just regarded black kids in school as somebody you would say hello to, but never see outside of school. They were never in fraternities. In those days we had fraternities in Binghamton Central High School. Some would not take Catholics, some took Catholics but would not take Jews, and there was one just for Jews. The black kids were like part of the furniture, I mean, they were not anything in the social structure of the student body. As I changed a lot now, much better. But from those days, you know, back in the (19)30s, when I was growing up, until now there has been a big change. There is still a lot of racial hatred and racial problems in society. These kids can be inspired to do something about it by the boomers. The boomers are the ones that demonstrated ̶ did you say that only like 15 percent demonstrated, I did not realize it was that low a figure. Obviously, there were some that did not agree with what the demonstrators were doing.
23:05
SM: The "hard hats" in New York.
23:08
JB: No, I mean, among the boomers themselves, those that did not see eye-to-eye with the protesters.
23:12
SM: The premise is out there, it is very easy now to bash the boomers and blame everything on them. And I am trying to find out if, you know, not based on my feelings, but on other people's feelings, if there is some validity to that charge, or if it is ridiculous. For example, people that were involved in the civil rights movement and people that were involved in the protests against the Vietnam War in the (19)60s ̶ especially in the civil rights movement ̶ are still supportive of affirmative action at universities. And they are being attacked for taking over universities. The people that are involved in these causes had a passion and that passion continues. A lot of young people today will look at boomers and say that was something from the past. But the issues are still the same. I am concerned that that is what is happening today. When I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and I keep hearing over and over again, the charge against Bill Clinton that he protested against the Vietnam War in Russia when he was over there. And people cannot forgive him for that. So it is like, what is this? Everything seems to come back to the boomers in trouble.
24:37
JB: There were people who went to Vietnam, you know, and served over there, and were killed there; and some may still be there. Many of them have always been disappointed that they were not regarded as the heroes that the guys from World War II were. Yet they only did what they were supposed to do. They were drafted, most of them. They went where they were told to go, they did what they were supposed to do. But they were not regarded as heroes like the veterans of World War II.
25:17
SM: I can remember when I was a SUNY student, and my dad was getting gas at one of the gas stations near Broome Tech. And this guy drove up in a car that had an American flag on the side. Well, at that period of time, people that were putting a flag on the car, [were making a statement] I am a better American than you are.
25:34
JB: The right wingers.
25:34
SM: Yes. I just about flipped out, but I did not do anything. I remained calm. But I said “No.” Nowadays, it is okay. How different society is.
25:50
JB: Republicans regarded themselves as more patriotic than the Democrats. The Democrats were more associated with the hippies, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, all that. Conservative people want to stop time, to just freeze time. It does not happen, everything changes. You can never go back to the way it was.
26:26
SM: If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, describe the qualities you most admired in them? Just a couple of things.
26:38
JB: Well, I admired many in the boomer generation for what they believe. They put aside traditions that were in their way. [garbled] I was the State Democratic Chairman when the legislature had the eighteen year old vote coming up. I worked hard, with a lot of others, to get that passed through the legislature. So we have an eighteen year old vote. We got the eighteen year old vote, but not enough of them voted.
27:35
SM: What year was that? 1968?
27:38
JB: Late (19)60s, right? Certainly ever since then, it has been that way. There are a lot of kids that turn eighteen, some are still in high school. They were just coming out, they first vote, they were just graduating that year.
28:02
SM: The young people wanted that vote. The slogan of the boomers was: "We are old enough to go to war, we should be old enough to vote." And they got the vote. I think (19)68 was the first year ̶ Humphry against Nixon. Now, not only do not they vote, but their kids do not vote.
28:30
JB: I think the kids lost hope at right around the same time. The assassinations, and then Nixon came along and had Watergate, people lost faith in government. And they still have lost faith in government. A lot of people do not trust government, even in the right wing. You got these nuts that form militias around the places. They do not trust the government. I think that is an extreme case. But there are people that do not like the government, they do not trust the government. And they do not bother voting. They do not think voting means anything. They do not think it is going to change their life, which is too bad. They think it is not going to change their life any, which is too bad. It can definitely change their life.
29:26
SM: That old slogan around the world that people have died to vote. Here they have it, and are not doing it.
29:35
JB: Look what happened in South Africa a couple of years ago. The first vote that these black people had, they stood in line seven, eight hours in the hot sun to cast their vote. And here, you do not have to do that. You do not even bother voting. It is too bad.
29:56
SM: This question might be repetitive, but have you changed your opinion on the youth of the (19)60s over the last twenty five years, the opinion that you had in politics, as mayor, and then today?
30:07
JB: Change my opinion of them? Well, they have grown and they have matured and they are not the same. So it is hard to say. I have read where some of the outstanding radicals of the (19)60s became, you know, sort of middle ground or conservative adults. Now, I think that has happened to a lot of them. I did not really change my mind about them. It ̶ I just watched them change.
30:53
SM: My generation, especially in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, believed that we are the most unique generation in American history. we are going to change the world, we are going to make things better.
31:05
JB: Right.
31:06
SM: Like it has never been the Age of Aquarius. Listen to the music of that era. Anyway, so what is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
32:22
JB: Oh, well, I guess the lasting legacy is that they survived a tumultuous time in our history. They participated in the civil rights movement, the women's movement, and the anti-war movement. Democracy still works. I guess that is about all I can think of. They still have time to go, to do more for their country before they get to the senior citizens.
33:10
SM: What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate into the lives of their children, Generation X?
33:22
JB: You mean in terms of there being people that volunteer and do things like that?
33:27
SM: The whole activist mentality, being change agents for society.
33:37
JB: To what degree does it affect their next generation? Well, there is a drop off, but I think it does affect it. People tend to carry on the tradition of their parents many times, especially when it comes to things of importance like that; especially toward the things that are significant. My kids are all Liberal Democrats. They think it is the only logical way to be. I think I will pass that on to their kids. I think others will do the same thing as Republicans. I know there are some that drop off. I know I have seen kids who are Republicans and their fathers are Democrats, and vice versa. But they are in the minority. You would think that kids would know from day one. In my generation, I was very much aware of what Roosevelt did for our country in terms of all the New Deal legislation and New Deal reforms and the job creating things that he did. That brought me closer to the Democratic Party than just the fact that my parents were Democrats. But my children do not know, and certainly my grandchildren will not know where social security came from. They will not be that much attached to the Democratic Party as I was because of social security or unemployment insurance, and so many other things. I think there is a certain drop off of fidelity to a party as each generation comes along and is more and more independent in their thinking.
34:37
SM: That is good! I want to ask this question again because I think we may have missed it. Do you think it is possible to heal within the generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care?
36:09
JB: I think we should try to continue in the healing process. I think, as you mentioned earlier, that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington and other activities can be of help to start the healing process for Vietnam veterans. They feel better about the fact that the country regards them highly, and they were doing what they did for patriotic reasons. Other than the Vietnam Veterans, I think that there should be healing. Some of us naturally know the old saying "time heals all wounds." People that were mad at people who were against the war and people that were mad at people who supported the war have now lived and worked together for a couple of decades. I think they see that the other side is not all that bad, that they are good people. They may still disagree, but they come together, they live in a community together, and they live in our country together. I think the healing process takes place between individuals.
37:16
SM: To take off on that, when we met with Senator Muskie he said that the Civil War generation went to their graves filled with hatred for the South, or the North despite the efforts of these reunions in Gettysburg and that Reconstruction was not a good era. I personally go to the Vietnam Memorial celebrations and Veterans Day in Washington these last couple of years, and I have seen the things that they are wearing on their jackets. This is supposed to be a non-political entity. The Wall [the Vietnam War Memorial] was built to be a non-political entity in honor of those who served and died for their country. Yet you see all these political statements being worn on jackets and jerseys of Jane Fonda Bitch, and comments about Bill Clinton. They had Peter Arnett there this past year.
38:33
JB: He went behind the lines in Iraq, right?
38:37
SM: Right. I heard some Vietnam veterans saying "Why did I come to hear this guy because he wrote bad, terrible things about us?" They are against the reporters. I am wondering how much healing is really taking place. My main concern is, is the boomer generation really going to heal? Or are they going to go to their graves with bitterness?
39:03
JB: I think some individuals are going to go to their graves with bitterness, but I think overall there will be more healing than not. I do not know if you know Tim Grippen, he is our county executive. He had part of his face blown away in Vietnam. It took a long time for plastic surgeons and others to repair his face. His face is, you can tell what happened. He has been very active with the Vietnam Veterans. Here is a guy that came back and went to graduate school at Syracuse University studying public administration. Now he is the county executive, and he has no bad feelings; and there a lot of them. He is in touch with all the Vietnam veterans in Broome County. He is a role model for them. There are people out there like that, that do not say Jane Fonda Bitch. He is a Democrat and a supporter of Bill Clinton. It might be a good idea if you could talk to him some time.
40:07
SM: What is his name?
40:17
JB: Tim Grippen-- G R I P P E N. He is the County Executive of Broome County. [garbled] I think that some diehards will never change. But there are those who, as time goes on, they will see someone that they like who sees things differently. They will soften up a bit.
40:42
SM: I want to say that, for example, during my many trips to the Wall, I attended several ceremonies with veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda, and they hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans the royal welcome on their return to the mainland. The Wall has helped [garbled], but the hate remains for those on the other side. [garbled]
41:19
JB: In fact, there is a replica of that Wall they bring around to different communities. It is smaller in size. They had one here for a week. All kinds of people went down and saw it. And I felt that there was a feeling like there is a lot of people like me who were against the war, but who still feel that those guys did a job for us and they were doing it for their country. We cannot blame them for something that they had nothing to do with. They are not responsible for it, and I think they should be honored. There are a lot of people that feel that way. I do not think that there is going to be any healing. I think among some people, that is true, but I do not think it is a majority.
41:50
SM: That is right. Do you think we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate?
42:19
JB: Well, I do not know. I think that is one of the big problems Bill Clinton is having right now. Whitewater and all the related investigations are going on about his character and his wife's character. Even if he wins the election, which I think he will, People may not regard him as they would George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Although in his day, Lincoln was not as popular as he is now; he had a lot of detractors. Now we look at him like a saint. I am a follower of Abraham Lincoln [garbled] but there were people then that did not think he was a saint. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of people that hated his guts. I do not know about Washington. He was a war hero, so maybe he enjoyed a better reputation with the public of his day. You know, when Harry Truman left office, he was quite unpopular. He had fired MacArthur who was a big war hero. [garbled] Over a period of time, while he was still living, but as former president, he gained back his popularity by far. He was very popular towards the end of his time. So, you never know about that.
44:02
SM: How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations?
44:08
JB: I think protesters against the war helped those of us who were Democratic officials come around to seeing their point of view. We started out like, he is the elected president and he wants us in there and we are going to support our president. Finally, after seeing how sincere and how widespread their [the protesters] feelings were, we could understand their point of view. I supported it.
44:52
SM: What did you think at the time when that was happening?
45:04
JB: In my position as Democratic State Chairman, we had people for the war and people against the war. Mccarthyites were against it early on, even before Bobby Kennedy came out against it. I was trying to hold the party together. I did not take a position on it because I thought that it was a unique situation, position, to be in. But I did after Bobby Kennedy came on and then I got to know Al Lowenstein, leader of the group, and others. I did come out against the war. We had to elect Kennedy President and I was the one that was like the mediator between warring sides and all that sort of thing within the party. Yeah.
45:59
SM: At that time when you saw some of the politicians changing the lives of young people. And then you eventually came on that side yourself. Had this ever happened before in American history that a generation of youth had this kind of impact?
46:17
JB: I think there have been protests before, but not all young people. Young people really brought this about.
46:28
SM: When the best history books are written about the growing up years of the boomers, say twenty-five from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? They are just reaching fifty now. When their history books are written, and the best history books are written fifty years after an event ̶ when the best history books on the growing up years for the boomers, say twenty-five to fifty years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers, then?
47:00
JB: Well, I think their generation, as we mentioned a little while ago, was the main force behind getting the war stopped. They were the main force of getting Lyndon Johnson to drop out of the race for re-election. There was turmoil going on in the country, much of it caused by that generation. I was the chairman of the New York State delegation at the Democratic Convention (1968), which then was the largest delegation in the country. Then we were larger than California. That was a tumultuous time in Chicago. Outside there were all sorts of demonstrations going on. At one point half my delegation was in jail. We had a candlelight parade that was not supposed to go over a line the police drew, they went over the line, and they all got thrown in jail. Yeah, (19)68. All sorts of things happened that really reflected what was going on in the country, much more than the Republican Convention, which was just an orchestrated political rally. But my point is that the boomer generation was responsible for that. If they had not had the guts to do it, it would not have been done. I do not think any political leader could have been comfortable out there without their support as a political leader on their side ̶ and maybe not gotten any votes without their support.
48:06
SM: (19)68, right? Last question here. Youth believed they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)60s and (19)70s ̶ Vietnam, draft, civil rights legislation, nonviolent protests, multiple movements ̶̶ in other words, a sense of empowerment. Why is society resisting this today? And why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, in some respects, less desire and seeing less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in this question?
49:28
JB: No, no, I think you are right. It is hard to say why they feel that way, talking about the X generation, right? I do not know, they do not seem to relate, that is why I think the boomer generation has to tell them what happened and make it more personal to them. There are a couple of movies they can see, like "Born on the Fourth of July," an Oliver Stone movie and things like that were really very powerful and would be real good for the next generation to see. But I do not know why, as I say, there is a fall off of enthusiasm with each generation for a given cause. They have done that, they have fallen off. Maybe they need a new cause? Maybe they need something to happen to bring them all together to fight for a cause? Because the fight itself is exciting, the fight itself gives them a lot of spirit and a lot of dedication.
50:21
SM: That is what so many young people tell me, that there is no cause.
50:59
JB: So writing this book, when do you finish with your interviews?
51:03
SM: Actually it is going to probably be about eighteen months of interviews, because I work full time and I have not been able to take time off from work and we take a lot of trips to Washington.
51:13
JB: And you will have to analyze all the interviews.
51:15
SM: Yeah, what I am going to do is ̶
51:20
JB: And computerize some of it? Transcribe them and a secretary I am going to hire to type the things. Basically going to mostly be verbatim from the interviews so that I am not being judgmental. I want the people who read them to make their decisions. Yeah.
51:33
SM: My goal was to interview three hundred people. That is a lot.
51:37
JB: That is a lot, yeah ̶
51:39
SM: And by three hundred people, it could be two hundred interviews. I can have ten Vietnam veterans in a room. But in the end, I hope that I can do something to add to the discussion because I am real concerned. I have been in universities now for seventeen years and I am trying to analyze what the boomers have done, and what their influence has been myself. And I want to find out more.
51:45
JB: Oh, I get you.
52:12
SM: I do want to, just on these names that got cut out here, I did write some notes. Just read and respond on a couple of these names if you can. Jane Fonda.
52:23
JB: She has a lot of courage and integrity. She knew she would be very unpopular for what she did. But I think she, I think her meaning was to help her country and not the opposite as some people claim. She wanted to help her country by getting it out of the war.
52:43
SM: And then Tom Hayden.
52:50
JB: Tom Hayden? I think he looks good. He has been elected many times out of the California legislature, so he has a constituency. He was a rabble rouser in the minds of some people. As you mentioned he has come to Chicago, this time as a delegate instead of a protester. I think a lot of people that protested the war, who were regarded at that time as troublemakers are now regarded as the guys who were on the right side ̶ including the President [Bill Clinton].
53:24
SM: Lyndon Johnson.
53:28
JB: Lyndon Johnson, I said, except for the war. I mean, his effect on .generation was the war, the main thing was the war. And they scorned him for it. But except for the war, If you could set that aside, he had a marvelous record of social legislation.
53:46
SM: And Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy.
53:48
JB: Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy were the most inspirational leaders we have ever had in my lifetime. They brought hope to young people and stood for the good things in government. They tried to get young people involved in the government and bring them into working in the government and doing good things for their country. And they brought the tragic, patriotic feelings to people.
54:18
SM: And Richard Nixon and Timothy Leary.
54:21
JB: Well, Richard Nixon was a pitiful case. He was a brilliant man in some respects. He was very paranoid, and I think he was a mean spirited guy in many, many ways. In some ways he did some good things as president, but overshadowed by Watergate, by his lying to the public. Timothy Leary I think was a nut case and a very bad influence. As a Harvard professor, that brings some prestige to just that title. He did have an effect on a lot of young people. He got a lot of young people into the habit of drug selling and that the use of drugs is good for them and the wonderful experience, they should do it. I do not know how many lives he ruined, but he must have ruined some. It was very bad for our country.
55:14
SM: And then the last three names ̶ Dr. King, George McGovern, and Daniel Ellsberg.
55:22
JB: Martin Luther King was an inspirational leader for all people of all colors, because he did some very difficult, almost impossible things. And he brought about these things in a nonviolent way. He preached nonviolence just like Mahatma Gandhi in India, like Jesus Christ did. I mean, he saw what was wrong, he wanted to right it, but he wanted to right it without any physical harm to anybody. And I think that made him a great, great American. Who is the next one named? George McGovern, a very decent man, was a good leader, was with a great senator. He was very concerned about hunger and work done on hunger within America for many years in the Senate. I think he got a bum rap when he ran for president. He was running against Nixon, I think. He was perceived by the public as sort of like involved with the hippies and the left wing and that he was not a solid guy. He was a very solid guy. Daniel Ellsberg was a man of principle and n he did what he thought was right.
56:45
SM: Senator (Eugene) McCarthy?
56:45
JB: Senator McCarthy was a man of principle. I think he had some guts to do what he did. I do not think it was a personable guy, but that is just a personal thing.
57:01
SM: Any final thoughts you want to say at all?
57:04
JB: I have said enough I think. It was an interesting era to play some role, a lot of history there, you know. We had some high spots and low spots. The lowest of course for me was when Robert Kennedy was assassinated.
57:22
SM: Is Allard Lowenstein buried in an unmarked grave between Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy at Arlington. I heard that he was.,
57:31
JB: I never knew that. I do not know where he is buried.
57:35
SM: I was in California when he was shot by one of his friends.
57:40
JB: There was a guy with all sorts of energy, I will tell you. I worked for him to win for Congress. He ran in Brooklyn against an old guy named John Rooney who was part of the Democratic establishment in Brooklyn. He had been in Congress for years, the chairman of some important committee. Anyway, I worked for Al, much to the disdain of Lee Esposito, who was the Brooklyn leader at the time and lost that election. He did go to Congress, I think from another district out in Long Island for one term. He [Esposito] came back to Brooklyn, got beat out there the second time. I knew his wife, I knew him. A very interesting guy.
58:31
SM: [garbled]
58:43
JB: Al Lowenstein had a way of organizing students better than anyone I ever heard of. He was a hero on the campuses. He knew how to get things done.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John Burns
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Burns, John J., 1921-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews
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John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.
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1996
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.181
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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59:14
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/18a92e0007c3c534daeb7d555f3582e9.mp3
c0338efa7d8ccb4376a5e09e1cbbfd3e
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Paul Krassner
Date of Interview
2010-03-10
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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179:00
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor and publisher of the the Realist magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the <em>Realist</em> magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography <em>Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture</em>. He studied Journalism at Baruch College. </span>
Keywords
<span>1968 Democratic Convention; Abbie Hoffman; Abe Peck; AIM; Allen Ginsberg; Anita Hoffman; Arthur Chickering; Avery Corman; Barry Freed; Bayard Rustin; Black Panther Party; Black Power Movement; Bob Fass; Bobby Kennedy; Burt Caen; City College of New York; Chicano movement; CIA; Clark Kerr; Community Friends; Conspiracy; Dan White trial; Daniel Ellsberg; Dave Bellinger; David Horowitz; Dr. Albert Ellis; Dr. Rosalind Petchesky; Ed Sanders; Edmund Muskie; Eisenhower; Ernie Kovacs; FBI; Festival of Life; George Carlin; George Lincoln Rockwell; George McGovern; George Will; Harry Reasoner; Hippies; House of American Activities Committee; J. Edgar Hoover; Jack Kerouac; Jeff Miller; Jerry Rubin; John Carlos; John Kennedy; John McCain; John Sinclair; Jonah Raskin; Judy Gumbo; Ken Kesey; Kent State; Kim Phuc; Kurt Vonnegut; Lenny Bruce; Levitate the Pentagon; Lyle Stuart; Mae Brussell; Mark Rudd; Martin Luther King Jr.; Mary Vecchio; Merry Pranksters; Miri Savio; Mk-Ultra ; My Lai massacre; Napalm; Neal Cassidy; Ned Lamont; Newseum; Newt Gingrich; Norman Mailer; Osama Bin Laden; Patty Hearst; Peter Max; Phil Ochs; Proletarian; Rabbi Hesche ; Ram Daas; Rex Weine ; Richard Nixon; Robert Scheer; Robin Morgan; Ronnie Davis; SDS; Stewart Brand; Stu Albert; Super Joe ; Tet Offensive; The Independent; The Realis ; Timothy Leary; Tom Hayden; Truthdig; Twinkie Defense; U2; Vietcong; Vietnam; Vietnamese; </span><span>Wall Street Dollar Bill event; Walter Cronkite; Watergate; WBE; Weatherman; Women’s Movement; Wounded Knee; Yippies; Young Lords; Zippies.</span>
Blacks and Jews; Anti-Semitism and anti-blackness; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Nineteen sixties Generation Era; George McGovern; Drugs; Yippie Movement; Divorce Rate; Hippie; Yippie.
Subject LCSH
Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul Krassner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: 10 March 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:03
SM: Testing 123 ̶
00:07
PK: Exists and so um, I look back and I am very pleased. You know, I am disappointed in the sense that all the stuff that I have wanted to accomplish I have not or not yet and, and you know most people know you for what You have done and you know yourself somehow for what you still want to do.
00:34
SM: You have done so much what do you still want to do?
00:37
PK: Well, you know, I am going to be seventy-eight in a few days.
00:43
SM: Well, congratulations, happy birthday!
00:46
PK: And I have and so I am working on my first novel. And as a friend, Avery Corman, told me, he wrote Oh, God! and Kramer Versus Kramer. He wrote his very first article in The Realist, we became friends. And I said to him, boy, it is really hard, writing fiction, you have to have to make stuff up. And he said, "Come on Paul, you have been making up stuff all your life." And I said, "Yeah, but that was journalism." So it is a different kind of challenge. You know, I could just describe, I did not know, I could describe Abbie Hoffman by just describing what I already knew. And I want to try to avoid ever describing anybody at having chiseled features, which is one of the description clichés, I cannot help but notice.
01:48
SM: One of the things that I think you are proud of this is what the FBI said of you, you know what I am saying here, and that is what is the inspiration for the title of your book. The FBI said, "To classify Krassner as a social rebel is far too few he is a nut, a raving unconfined nut." Are you very proud? You are pretty proud of that aren't you?
02:11
PK: I guess, sort of like people were proud of being on, like Daniel Ellsberg, said he was proud to be on the enemies list. You know, I mean, my mother was not happy about that. But it was so absurd but also significant because they were trying to, you know, this was written on a poison pen letter so as if it came from a college student complaining about the articles that Life Magazine had published about. And so that was the context of it. But you know, and they were doing that, you know, character assassination, which did not bother me so much except that is not what taxpayer money goes to do. And as you can could read in my autobiography, it escalated the next year, character assassination to what was virtually a literal assassination. When the FBI put out a leaflet with, it had a huge swastika on it. It had the four black faces. It had photographs of four people. One was Mark Rudd, who was the head of the SDS, Students for a Democratic Society. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, cofounders of the yippies, the Youth International Party as was I in the fourth corner there. And the headline was Lampshade! Lampshade! Lampshade! And it was essentially something in their files which, and the file was trying to create rifts between Blacks and Jews. This was the FBI's wonderful work behind the scenes. And in the copy below that headline, they talked about how Jews have been oppressing Negros, for so long but we know what happened years ago so we must, these leaders must be eliminated. And then they have to get permission. This is all from my FBI files. This was Washington, and they had to get permission from the New York office. These were J. Edgar Hoover's DuPont assistants who approved it. In their approval of it gave instructions to the New York office, make sure that, and I am paraphrasing but the essence of it, make sure that these pamphlets or leaflets are not traceable to the Bureau. But how they described it the word they used was that these leaflets facetiously suggesting the elimination. And so, you know, it was as if some militant black militant black picked up this flyer in Florida he now he might have been a little bit off kilter. But if he had assassinated one of us the FBI defense would be, we said it was facetious. So, so anyway, so even though I got a book title out of it, the "Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut" but you know, it was it was really proletarian that was what they were doing.
06:16
SM: I would say and you know that we know the workings of J. Edgar Hoover but and when they ask you this, when you looked at the relationship between Jewish Americans and African Americans over the years in the (19)50s, the (19)40s, the (19)50s and into the (19)60s, it was one of the strongest relationships ever in American history. Because they understood, each group understood the rights and you have to fight for rights and there is prejudice against various groups based on your religion and ethnic background. Do you believe there was some sort of jealousy there too? That even though you were looked upon the four of you as maybe radicals in their eyes, there was this anti-Semitism too that was there and maybe anti-black, that to these two groups working together no matter where they were found have to be divided.
07:14
PK: That is right exactly right, divide and conquer. You know anybody who, who would question authority. My daughter once said she when she was growing up, she said, I really thought my Dad and his friends were paranoid. But as I grew up, I began to understand that there was a police state involved. And so you know, a lot of the stuff that is coming out now are just continuations of what, because of technology, you know, has turned you know, say with cell phones or video cameras. What was once used for porn and entertainment is now used as evidence. So, the scandals are coming out now. You know as Ken Kesey once said to me, you know the spirit of truth. And it is that classic metaphor of there being grass pushing its way through the cement blocks.
08:38
SM: It is amazing because when you think of the strongest relationship in the anti-war movement, it was the relationship between a Black man and a Jewish man. And that was Rabbi Heschel and Martin Luther King Jr. They were the united arm and arm and they were both united in their effort to end war in Vietnam. And actually they were both criticized within their religious communities. They were they were visionaries. One of the early questions I asked of all of our guests, or all the interviewees.
09:08
PK: I like that, guests! Hah!
09:11
SM: Well, interviewees. I actually sent that I actually said that in an office once down in New York City, and she said, I am your guest, you are not my guest, and that was because I was in her office done at NYU. But the question that I am asking is, George Will oftentimes whenever he gets a chance, he'll take shots at the (19)60s generation or that era, as the reason for a lot of the problems we have in our society and you can go to any book that he has written and he'll have an essay, when Newt Gingrich came into power in (19)94, he made some very strong comments against that era around the time that George McGovern was running for president and that particular period, kind of criticizing that time and that Generation. And then when you read your book and your books, some of the quotes from John McCain when he talks about Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee, in his comments on drugs, and, and also David Horowitz and I saw this in where he claims that, and you know, this is from an article that was in the web said that "Although he likes Krassner personally, he believes that he in the yippies must shoulder much of the blame for the crisis of AIDS and drug addiction. It was one of it was one long incitement against America against all the guidelines and morals and mores and help people make it through life." He said, "The yippie movement, and I think the yippies in the end were a terribly destructive force." Now he is only talking about yippies here, but as George Will and Gingrich, they are talking about the generation.
10:53
PK: Oh, yeah.
10:54
SM: Just your thoughts on all these commentaries, that the drug culture that break up with the American family, the extensive divorce rate, a concept of all these "isms", the concept of the Welfare State all these things. Let us just blame it on the lack of respect for authority.
11:11
PK: Well, yeah, I think that (19)60s bashing is going to be in the Olympics in a few years. It is you know, it is scapegoating, in retrospect. And I have written a few a few things about it, as I see the pattern, and, and what sometimes it is not even conscious scapegoating is just sloppy journalism.
11:37
SM: Mm hmm.
11:38
PK: You know, it is kind of shorthand. An example of that was a linking of a New York politician Ned Lamont, the writer was saying that he was, that blinding him as a politician running for some office was, not the same as and, the two people he linked was Osama bin Laden or Abbie Hoffman and I thought well there you know, talk about strange bedfellows! And the line I used to differentiate between them was that Bin Laden a plane to fly into the Pentagon and Abbie, he only wanted to levitate it.
12:41
SM: Yes. Yeah. One of the questions I wanted to ask you and I have read a lot of in your biography, but could you talk a bit about your college days? Obviously, you were a child prodigy, you were on the stage of Carnegie Hall as a very young kid. And I understand from reading about your background, how you went in another direction. But were your college years in the (19)50s, did they have any kind of an influence on you?
13:15
PK: It just intensified my obsession of what I was going to do with my life. It was just so important because I saw people, a lot of people just unhappy or angry about their work, but you know that and yet they wanted to support their families. And so I really just so I was not happy in politics, did not know what I would major in and second semester I took a leave of absence. And went every day in the afternoon, I have afternoon job and I would go to a vocational library and read about different vocations. And then through a series of chain links, I ended up in my senior year in college working for The Independent of course, the paper run by Lyle Stuart.
14:28
SM: And the college? No, no, no. No, I mean the name of the college.
14:33
PK: Excuse me?
14:34
SM: I am just putting it in for the record where you went to school.
14:38
PK: Oh, oh! CCNY, City College of New York.
14:41
SM: Okay.
14:41
PK: And I started working for him, this was in my senior year. And I just, I realized I would rather work there than at the New York Times. I mean because it was an anti-censorship to paper in a long tradition from Thomas Paine to [unintelligible] and I was just thrilled to have, even though I was just at the start stuffing envelopes. And so it was, it was, I just felt so grateful to have landed in in that position. I ended up becoming the managing editor. In college, really my mind was wandering a lot. You know, I remember a couple of things, one was in Philosophy 101 the definition of philosophy was the rationalization of life. And, and the other was that some anthropologist said happiness is having had as little separation as possible between your work and your play and everything else is kind of a blur. I mean, I know I got through one course not having paid attention for the whole semester, but the night before the final exam, I studied everything that was in italics in the textbook. So that you know, it was not it was nothing that I... I was the assistant manager of the basketball team. I think I wanted that really, I was one of those jackets. A silk jacket, a sports jacket. So and I left college, I was already working there. I knew what I wanted. I did not want to have any job where I needed a degree, because to me that was false snobbery. I mean, I do not mean that, you know, somebody is going to medical school. But, but for me personally, I did not. And, and so, in my, I would pick, I needed one three credit course, to get my degree and I just walked out of the class one day. And it was liberating. Although, you know, it was incredible to my family. And, but, you know, I had to live my own life. It is that simple.
17:51
SM: Mm hmm. Well, it is interesting because some of the biggest moments the (19)60s are linked to you. At least anybody who cares about the (19)60s who grew up in the (19)60s or who grew up in that era. It is the how the term "yippie" became a term. And of course, we'll talk about the Twinkie Defense later on in the interview, but I have Jerry Rubin's book. I remember buying that book in 1971 when I was in grad school and reading it in the summertime and him saying in the book that the term "yippie" they were in a meeting someplace with a lot of people, they did not know what to name their group and so somebody in the background was yelling "yippie". And so that was how it became the group became "the yippies." Well, that is misinformation from do it? Because when you look at your book and read your background, that was a meeting that you and Abbie Hoffman had along with Abbie's wife.
18:52
PK: I have read I have read several different versions of that but you know, I was there as a friend as an activist, and as a journalist, so I made note of it. And as a journalist, I knew that you need a ̶ who, what, when, where and how.
19:18
SM: Right.
19:18
PK: And so I just had this brainstorm trying to, and this was on the afternoon of December 31st 1967. And it was at the apartment on the lower east side of Abbie and Anita Hoffman. And there were about maybe eight or nine more activist friends, there gathered, and, the essence of what we were talking about was going as a counter convention in the summer of (19)68, Chicago when the Democrats would have their convention. And it was the Vietnam War was bipartisan, but it just happened to be under the democrat's watch at that point. And as Abbie once said, we do not want to go to Miami in the off-season anyway. So I was trying to think of Bob Bass was one of the original yippies, he said that no, he said this later, I am getting ahead of myself. The San Francisco the "diggers" had a march through the streets, a funeral called "the death of hippies" because it had definitely become you know a media term and they wanted to call themselves "Free Americans," which was bizarre because when the hostages were released from Iran, the first thing when they went to in America was get a haircut and it would be silly for hippies, you know, to hear somebody yelling at them, you know, get a haircut, you "Free American" but it was an oxymoronic epithet. So I was thinking of a different, something that would rhyme with hippies seemed natural, and then I was trying to think of, of a an acronym that you know, would represent what the event was going to be for us, one of the original, the folk singer, Phil Ochs, had described the mood we wanted to bring to Chicago. He said a demonstration to turn you on, not turn you off.
22:34
SM: Yeah, it is a quote I have here. Yes.
22:38
PK: And so came up with "Youth" because it was a generational thing at that time, "international" because this kind of evolutionary jump in consciousness was around the globe and so in Paris in Mexico and Czechoslovakia, the same rebellion against repression was in process and so "international" was in the middle and then "P" for party which was perfect because of both like a political party and have a lot of fun party. Excuse me for one second.
23:22
SM: Yeah.
23:32
PK: I thought my wife came in. So, Let us see where was I? And so the initials for that would be "Y.I. and P" for the acronym and so out of that derived the "yippies" and so at our first press conference as a result of that, the Chicago papers had a headline: "Yipes, the Yippies are Coming" and so, you know, we could see that the myth developing. We would hear from, you had to open an office, we were hearing from groups on campuses, you know, who, who finally, had a name for what they represented. Because all I did was, was come up with a name, which was essentially a shout of joy. So I did not even make up the name. But just a name a phenomenon that already existed. And this came from that had originally been an adversarial relationship between the hippies and between the straight politicians, political activists, and so that the hippies thought that straight politicos were playing into the administrations chance by protesting against the war and the politicos, thought the hippies were being irresponsible because they were just sitting around in the park smoking pot but each one came to realize as it was a kind of cross fertilization of the stoned hippies and the straight politicos you know, seeing each other at maybe civil rights demonstrations or antiwar rallies and hippies began to see.. the straight politicos saw that the hippies, that they had a smoke-in at the park, that they were committing civil disobedience to protest against an unjust law and the hippies could see in turn, they could see a linear connection ultimately from putting someone behind bars for smoking weed and they could see that that connection to dropping Napalm.
26:50
SM: Yes.
26:50
PK: On kids on the other side of the world. And the connection was, it was the ultimate extension of the dehumanization, of punishment without crime. And o in each whether it whether it was young people imprisoned for giving themselves harmless pleasure and people turning the other one other way, not seeing the terrible injustices and expanded ultimately to people turning away from the war in Vietnam, you know and being gung ho about it.
27:47
SM: That is a beautiful description, I read a part of like that in the book too but this linear connection is very important to hear because even when you look at the 1968 convention in Chicago, correct me if I am wrong, the yippies and people who were around that group looked upon it as the convention of death. Because we were killing Vietnamese and we historically had not talked about the people we were killing. We are thinking about the people that are losing lives from our nation, which is equally important, our troops, but certainly not a whole lot about the Vietnamese people themselves and you thought about it. The group is, as I have got here "The Festival of Life" so you are making a connection even there, you know, changing the name for Youth International Party and now going to the convention for challenging the convention of death. Is that correct?
28:48
PK: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And we were going to do it, not just music instead of speeches, but what happened in Woodstock the following year was our original vision and we thought we would have a booths around the perimeter with, you know, information on the draft and information on the drug and so it was, so it really was a it really captured the attention of people who, you know, we would pull stunts, like throwing money off the balcony onto the floor of the factory today.
29:52
SM: Mm hmm.
29:54
PK: But then there would be a press conference outside and we would talk about the relationship between Wall Street and the war.
30:09
SM: Yeah, yeah, a couple of the antics that people define them as antics. Levitating the Pentagon in (19)67. The Wall Street where the dollar bills were thrown out. Jerry Rubin had one you may remember it and do it where he went into the bank. Do you remember that scene?
30:29
PK: He went into the bank, and what?
30:33
SM: He went into the bank, and he asked if he could use the restroom. And they said, get out of here, we do not like your types in the bank. And he said, I going to go to the bathroom. And they said, no, you got to leave. And he says, if you do not let me go in the bathroom, I will go right on the floor. And he did.
30:54
PK: If I knew about that, I forgot it.
30:56
SM: Yeah, it was and it was do it. It was because it was linked to his book, "Do It." So I am remembering things from back when I read this book a long time ago, but it is kind of a; you guys had a very a lot of energy I remember. You have a lot of energy and in some respects, you determined. Why do you feel that we are not talking to the Newt Gingrich's in the Mike Huckabees, and John McCain's of the world but what do you think some of the liberals have today I have interviewed some who, when I go at the end of the interview, and I mentioned Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin and the hippies, and they just saw that was nothing. And these are liberals that were in either, they might have been an SDS, the Women's Movement and the Black Power Movement. I am not talking about
31:47
PK: Well, you know, we got a lot of attention that they did not. So there was a resentment out of the new left. You know we were having fun and the new left was kind of serious. I mean we were serious too, but humor was our vehicle.
32:14
SM: Paul, if I were to ask you to give them a quick definition of the definition of a hippie the definition of a yippie and then the definition of a zippy, how would how would they differ?
32:30
PK: A hippie and a yippie and a what?
32:32
SM: A Zippy.
32:33
PK: Okay.
32:35
SM: And please speak up too.
32:37
PK: Okay. A hippie and the name came from San Francisco Chronicle columnist Burt Caen and (C.A.E.N) and from, I guess hipster or hip itself and essentially, it was to describe young people who, especially males, who were letting the hair grow longer and wearing colorful clothes and smoking marijuana and they were stead fullness and sense of community and sex, drugs and music was their Holy Trinity, but and at the core of this psychedelic revolution was a spiritual revolution. As Lenny Bruce said, people were leaving the church going back to God.
33:58
SM: [Laughs]
33:58
PK: But I was thinking of that as we speak because of that is what is happening with the Catholic Church now.
34:05
SM: Oh, I know.
34:09
PK: So let us see, where was I? Oh, ok so a yippie was, oh now something comes something I was going to say before, Bob Fass who had a nightly show, all night show on WBAI radio in New York and his description was a yippie is a hippie whose been beat on the head with a cop's billy club and I would say a yippie was a someone who saw without even articulating, someone who knew that the right to smoke marijuana was related to the right to protest against a war, or it was just a sense of freedom and in terms of LSD, it was one of the drug of choice at the time. It was originally started by the CIA in the hope of an exploited I should say not distorted in the hope that it could be used as a drug of control. And the methodology, especially with people, which is what they did with their Mk-Ultra experiment, on unsuspecting volunteers. There was a process of de-programming and then reprogramming them in whatever way they wish. And what happened in the (19)60s was that the young people who experimented with LSD, and for the most part, the experiment was a success, one vehicle of connecting one conscious with one's unconscious, or subconscious and so they were able to program themselves to deprogram themselves from mainstream culture, which has so many inhumane aspects to it and reprogram themselves, not only reprogram themselves to a more humane value system, but to practice it it. To practice the alternative. Whether it was forming communes, or playing music or any of the arts it was it was a kind of utopian vision, but it was not just a fantasy. Which is why I am still doing research into the government had, what level the government had with wanting to neutralize that movement because think tanks saw how it affected the economy. And so I am supposed to meet up the former FBI agent who was in what they called the hippie squad, and where they among have other things they learned how to roll a joint. The better to infiltrate a commune. So, okay, so hippie, yippie, zippie.
34:12
SM: Yippie? Zippies were the latter group.
38:44
PK: Okay, so in 1972 when at the republican convention in Miami, I think both conventions were held there that year. And there were some people and I was in California I was not there at that time. And getting out an issue of The Realist which by the late queen of conspiracy researchers Mae Brussell (M.A.E B.R.U.S.S.E.L.L) and publishing an article, a front page article by her on the relationship, all of the implications of and the conspiracy behind the Watergate break in. And this was at a time when the President and the media was still saying it was just a caper or a third rate burglary. So you know, in my own function it was to stay there and get that out and not go to Miami. So there was some of the younger people from the Lower East Side mostly who they started calling out Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin's age difference. And they called themselves the Zippies. And, and they were, and it was, you know, and they would making bread while you know, while the yippies were trying to make friends with elderly people there, the zippies would kind of taunt them and it was a very tense atmosphere between them. The zippies later of course named themselves the yippies because obviously, you had a better brand.
41:19
SM: Would say that the, the issue with the zippies and the yippies was like, in some of the other, even in the civil rights movement where the Black Panther Party challenged Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, civil rights leaders that your time has passed, they were just basically telling Abbie and Jerry and the others your time has passed. Is that what they were trying to do?
41:43
PK: Oh, yeah, that that they were trying to say your time is passed but the other side of that coin was our time has come and so you know, they were creating dissension rather than cooperate.
42:02
SM: Yeah, one of the things that is when you look at the people that were in the yippies, they were, you know, you were in there. Jonah Raskin who I interviewed was in there. He has written some great books, and ones on Abbie. Obviously, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Robin Morgan, on the biggest names in women's studies. You had John Sinclair, Stu Albert, who I am learning more about Ed Sanders and Judy Gumbo and others. These are major people. How did you ever link up? You know, like, what I am really trying to get at Paul. You are a person who graduates trying to figure out who are and what you are going to become. You become a comedian. You get to you have that particular what when was the first time you met these people and you knew they were your friends and you had similar ideas and you hung out together? When did all that begin?
43:02
PK: Well, I was living on the Lower East Side now known as the village. And other folks I knew, including Abbie Hoffman, including Bob Fass would have a weekly meeting with called the Community Friends because we were not going to be the community with the milk of mines and I do not know some, some rhetoric like that, but it was just a group of people who and I became friends with them in the process. And then especially, I became friends with Abbie and Anita Hoffman and, and they were just two blocks away from me and so you know, we had a lot of dinners together and movies and I think the moment that my friendship with Abbie was cemented was when Abbie, I am sorry, Lenny Bruce had died the previous year. And I told that Abbie that he was the first one who really made me laugh since Lenny died and Abbie said, oh, really, he was my God. And so you know, there was, that was the only sense in which I believe in an afterlife. The posthumous network.
44:58
SM: Let me switch my tape here.
45:04
PK: Okay, I got my lemonade.
45:09
SM: I hear you live in a very hot area. Is that true?
45:13
PK: Yeah, this is Desert Hot Springs and the weather sometimes you know is like one hundred and twenty degrees.
45:23
SM: No humidity though.
45:25
PK: But I will tell you I would I never used to like air conditioning but I grew to appreciate it.
45:34
SM: Yeah.
45:35
PK: And, and my wife Nancy and I had just moved from Venice Beach and right you know a block away from the ocean.
45:43
SM: Mm hmm.
45:43
PK: So going from the ocean to the desert was a real what was the word I want?
45:53
SM: Culture shock?
45:54
PK: Yes, it had a certain culture shock, yeah that is the word.
46:00
SM: It is amazing how we use that term a lot. Even in passing. Yeah, and we were talking about these personalities and you getting to know Abbie. Now, before we get back to these personalities that were in the yippies, Lenny Bruce has a little boy growing up in the (19)50s I knew all about Lenny Bruce. And then the only thing I can remember as a little boy was I think he was refused? Ed Sullivan would not allow him on his show because he could not predict what he would say or something? I remember hearing that. And that he was way ahead of his time that and here you are a person who was involved in editing his what his biography?
46:52
PK: Yes, I was the editor of his autobiography. It was not it was not ghostwritten but Playboy hired me as his editor.
47:03
SM: What is amazing is when I think of as a little boy again now in the (19)50s and the people that there is two people that come to mind to me that I wish I knew more about its Lenny Bruce and Ernie Kovacs because they both died young, they were both very talented and I think sometimes they were misunderstood. What was it about Lenny that he was so ahead of his time you were one of his closest friends and he kind of pushed you into being a comedian too. He was kind of a mentor or a role model for you. What was it about Lenny?
47:48
PK: Well, he saw through the bullshit and aimed for the truth and ultimately, he just was going to have the same freedom in nightclubs that he had in his living room. But he was his antenna, his antenna was always out. A lot of the comedians I have met George Carlin is certainly like this.
48:18
SM: Oh one of my favorites.
48:22
PK: His mind was always going and going and going, you know, it was just his nature. It was almost as if he had no control over it. So Lenny really just wanted to make people laugh. He was not trying to change them. He, you know, when I asked him about that, he would say, well, you know, maybe they get changed for twenty minutes and then they were home and they were into something else, you know, so he had no delusions about that. But he just wanted to communicate without compromise, which is what I wanted to do with The Realist. And in fact, when Newsweek did a story, they quoted Steve Allen, who was the first subscriber, they quoted him as saying The Realist was the periodical equivalent of Lenny Bruce. So the connection was there. With what each of us did was did so, you know when we got together it was not small talk, you know, you would start several steps ahead.
49:43
SM: Can you honestly say, Paul, that if it was not for Lenny Bruce, you would never have been able to produce the Realist?
49:54
PK: I think it is more [laughs]no, because I started in 1958 and I did not meet him until 1959. Okay, and Lenny would have many would have surrendered his talent with or without me. The only thing I helped inadvertently helped him get arrested was when he saw the use of language in The Realist when I interviewed somebody. The example specifically was the late Dr. Albert Ellis who had in our interview, he talked about the semantics of profanity and saying that if fucking was a good thing, then, if you want to say something nasty to somebody you should say "unfuck you." And the first time I met Lenny, I had an advanced copy of that issue which I gave to him and he looked at it. This was in his hotel room in the theater district at the time, we were in New York. And he and he was looking through it. And he saw that, that dialogue, and he said, do you get away with that? Of course at the time, most virtually all magazines were not would have dashes or asterisks instead of spelling out the word. And so and I said yeah, it talks about the Supreme Court's recent decision then that something was obscene if it had prurient appeal. It appealed the prurient interests and had no social positive, social redeeming social value that was the phrase. And Lenny would say: prurient? What does that mean? And he got out of the suitcase that was on the bed in his hotel room, a large, an unabridged dictionary, which he had carried with him where he had event ̶ He was a mono-didactic south pawed semanticist as was George Carlin the difference between them being that improvised a lot whereas George Carlin wrote down and memorized everything he did. But the point of view was extremely similar. So you know both in making fun of organized religion and political leaders and Lenny's arrests were ostensibly for obscenity but actually for having this powerful hysterical targets but you know there was a law against obscenity there was not a law against blasphemy. And so that was when Lenny had only used euphemism by spring before that and he started using the language that anyway, he was not trying to be a martyr and he would use the language not the way of so many comics do today we as an all-purpose, noun, adjective, adverb, verb, epithet, whatever.
54:06
SM: Mm hmm.
54:06
PK: And so I am not saying that is a bad thing except it is like sort of a reduction of vocabulary but it takes the edge off, you know the magic powers of four letters in certain combinations.
54:26
SM: Yeah, I remember reading; you admit to Tallulah Bankhead the actress. Something about the use of that term, a four-letter word and somebody used the term food.
54:40
PK: Oh, no, no, no, this was Norman Mailer. Okay. The first time I met him and he and in The Naked and the Dead, he had used the word a "fub", (F.U.B) as a euphemism.
54:55
SM: Oh, okay. That is it.
54:59
PK: And I asked him if it was true that Tallulah Bankhead said to him, oh, yes, you are the young man who doesn't know how to spell 'fuck' and his response was something like, oh, yes, then you are the actress who doesn't know how. That is the background of that.
55:32
SM: When you were, I have a question here about The Realist too. But when The Realist was getting started to keep it going, you needed to raise funds and that is what that poster came in 'fuck communism' was not that the uh, you sold them to raise some funds to keep the paper going?
55:52
PK: Oh, no, no. Well, the background of it was just it was just from gone with the art director of Mad and did a column called Modest Proposal and he wanted to give me a gift, this poster and he has the word "fuck," but he did not know what the object of the verb would be and he would think about "Fuck America." And it kind of made me uncomfortable because the paradox of America was that we have the freedom to express ourselves as to how lousy the government was doing such as waging wars in our name and so I thought about it, and I said, how about communism? Because it was such great, at that time, it was such a great incongruity, because it was the conservatives who were for the war. And it was conservatives who were against using language like that. And so it was a little bit confusing to them. And when the post office questioned me about it, and because I was going to send them, I had, oh, I am sorry, the printer would not print it. I could not get the people who did the engraving of the plate that we needed. They would not do it. And so I decided that I would have mention of it in The Realist and do it as a poster and the red, white, blue word "fuck" with stars and stripes and the word communism as red with hammers and sickles and says in small print at the bottom additional copies available from the Mothers of the American Revolution. And um, so it was, you know, I mean it helped. It helped. If they had printed it in the first place, and I had just used it in The Realist, it would not have brought any additional income. So bringing income was inadvertent, that was not the original purpose of that.
58:42
SM: Okay.
58:43
PK: But, but it had a purpose, which was Robert Scheer. S.C.H.E.E.R.
58:50
SM: Oh yeah I know. Yup.
58:52
PK: Oh, okay. Oh, he would be a tremendous uncompromising journalist. And now he has Truthdig. He has what? "Truthdig" (with two g's) T.R.U.T.H.D.I.G. as an online magazine. So he came to New York we had met in when he was working at the City Lights bookstore in San Fransisco. We were just talking I did not even know it is 1963 early and I did not even really know about the Vietnam War much. And he was enraged by it and he started explaining to me what was going on. And he went and he was writing a booklet for The Republic. A West Coast think tank and he wanted to, but they would not send him to Southeast Asia so he can see for himself. And so I said well, what would a round trip ticket cost you? And he said one million nine hundred dollars. And by that time, we had sold about a couple of thousand at one dollar each, so I gave him a check for the uh, to go to Cambodia, Vietnam and, do his research. So you know that was a blessing in disguise.
1:00:42
SM: Okay.
1:00:43
PK: Of not printing it in the Realist.
1:00:48
SM: Well one of the most important things you know, I am a big fan of the Newseum in Washington, D.C. and we have actually had people from the museum when I worked at the university come and speak about it and of course, it has got a brand-new building now. But the question I want to ask you is The Realist what it was like to be the editor of an underground paper, and all the pressures just to survive as a paper during these times. And the second part of the question, which I hope is an affirmative answer, has the underground press, like papers like the Realist ever been recognized by the Newseum in Washington D.C. for all of the great things that press has done? It is part of the history of America after the war, and I am I was curious if you know anything about what the Newseum has done to pay tribute to or do programs on, the underground newspapers.
1:01:48
PK: I honestly do not know. I do not know.
1:01:53
SM: And Paul please speak up too.
1:01:55
PK: Yeah, I am just, I am mumbling because I just do not know actually. I mean, there have been books about it, there is a fellow named Abe Peck, he did a book called Uncovering the (19)60s, it was a history of the underground press. And I know, I know, I think the University of Michigan had a microfilm of The Realist. And now all the issues are being put online. But I do not know if there was ever, ever any official recognition of it, by the, you know, like the Smithsonian or any of the museums.
1:02:29
SM: I think that would be I am not, I could not do it. But someone like you. And the person who was the leader of one of the biggest names: The Realist but the other newspapers whether if they are truly a Newseum that they are whether they recognize the importance of the underground press.
1:02:51
PK: It is a great idea. There should be that. You know, they, I think that those times, everybody was living so much in the present they did not think of the future like that. But sure, it is, it is a part of, of journalistic history really all of them I mean, the LA Free Press, the original publisher of that lives near me. He is now into alchemy. What are they doing now and, longevity. And it is you know there is here and there is recognizing different ways people have collected that they sometimes try to sell on eBay but it could come to pass but let us face it, you and I aren't going to do it.
1:03:55
SM: The key thing is as a person who ran an underground paper all these years what pressures did you receive from the public to shut you down ever. I mean, did you when we talked about individuals being watched by the FBI and the CIA, whether it be you, Abbie, Jerry and others, what, what were they doing in respect to the underground papers? Were they doing the same things to editors around the country and were you worried about lawsuits? Because you are doing things that other papers are afraid to do.
1:04:32
PK: Well, first of all, The Realist never did any advertising. The weekly underground papers had big advertising from the cigarette companies, and the liquor companies and the government pressured them stop the advertising, which helped diminish the underground papers. You know, I got threats and certainly the FBI attempted to harass but the serious ones, the book to read unless you wanted to interview Abe Peck goes into a lot of detail about the pressures and the harassment and the sabotage of underground papers. But I was, and those that have had problems I would sometimes do benefits for papers who were having trouble but you know the details of how the pressure and the hassling came about are revealing. You know, while the FBI was accusing us of being a conspiracy, they were the conspiracy. Conspiring to diminish whatever effect on the underground papers had.
1:06:33
SM: Mm hmm. One of the things too and I am going to get to some of the general questions here in a minute that I asked a lot of other people, but one of the things I admired about the yippies from afar was their ̶ the way; their theatrical efforts. Because when I was in college guerrilla theater was very important. Something we do not ever see today. I do not if you were talking about guerrilla theater in college campuses today, they would say what the heck is that? But I have a book that noted a lot of the participants of the (19)60s are actually interviewed in is the importance of guerrilla theater in the whole (19)60s and (19)70s era on college campuses. And actually, when you think about the yippies, you are thinking about massive guerrilla theater. Just your thoughts on whose idea was it to come up with these skits? I know you did the, talked about the Wall Street, the dollar bills, levitating the Pentagon, but coming up with colorful outfits and some of the things! Like I saw Jerry, when he came to Ohio State, Jerry Rubin, he came there one night and he look just like he does right here in the front cover of Do It. No different. And he gave he gave a tremendous speech. The place was packed and he had so much passion I will never forget! They gave him a standing ovation. But whose idea was it to do the theater part? Did you did you have practice?
1:08:13
PK: When the House of American Activities Committee came to the bay area and Jerry was going to testify. This was his first encounter with using that kind of theater. And there was the San Francisco mime troupe. And Jerry had a meeting with Ronnie Davis who ran the troupe and it was Ronnie Davis who suggested to Jerry that he go to the hearings dressed in a revolutionary costume from the American Revolution. Which he did and we have got a lot of attention and then Jerry would make comments about what was going on with the playing the American Revolution. But I asked him one time, I said, Jerry, how did you feel actually doing that? He said, I felt like an asshole but I had to do it. Because he has an example, could break through, others could break through. You know, that was a lot of feedback that I got about doing The Realist, people said to me, you know, I saw that lightning did not strike you and so it made me freer. I mean, this was people who were in mainstream media. Who said that it gave them a little show to be a little bit more risky?
1:10:14
SM: I think that is what George Carlin said to today, I was reading something about that. When he was younger that did what Lenny Bruce did and what you did and others did was made him feel hopeful.
1:10:30
PK: I do not know. No, no, it was Kurt Vonnegut who said that The Realist made him feel hopeful. Carlin said, and he wrote and then Vonnegut said it in an introduction to one of my books, the Winner of a Slow Bicycle Race. But the Carlin quote came from an introduction he had written to another one of the books Murder at the Conspiracy Convention and in that he described how it was impossible for him to read The Realist without feeling inspired. So you know, that was one of the most honorable things that have been said about my work. I was very touched. And particularly because Carlin in turn inspired so many people who have never heard of The Realist, so it is kind of you know, you throw your pebble into the stream and then it makes its own ripple.
1:11:33
SM: Yes, yes. One of the things that the tragic things of this period is I was interviewing a professor last week Dr. Petchesky at Hunter College and we were talking about I said, I have always brought up, I bring up in some of the interviews Abbie Hoffman's suicide, and the note that he left because I remember he died over here in Bucks County not far from where I live.
1:12:04
PK: But wait a minute. I do not think he left a note.
1:12:11
SM: Well, I will have to look it up, but it was from the press I think at that time, he said no one was listening to me anymore was in the note. I got the article.
1:12:25
PK: I will um, it might be true, but I am sorry if I had not known that I was under the impression, huh.
1:12:32
SM: But what I am getting at is that Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, Phil Ochs committed suicide, this professor's husband had committed suicide and he was a big anti-war Professor up at Wellesley College, because he was so upset about the war, people were not ending it and he did himself in. And then of course, I interviewed Lewis Poehler and he committed suicide as well. A Vietnam vet even though it was in 1994. My question is this. When I asked this to this professor last week, Dr. Petchesky she said, you have got to understand that when you are dealing with all these personalities in this particular era of American history, there is a lot of other things going on in their lives besides just what you see the anti-war or civil rights activities over there. They could have depression, they could have manic disorders. There is a lot of other things. And also, there is so I do not know what your thoughts were because you were close to Abbie and you knew Phil Ochs. And I remember one hearing that Phil Ochs, I believe killed himself as well. When I think of Abbie, I and that note that was in the supposedly attached to the article, it said, no one is listening to me anymore. And to me that struck me right in the heart because here is a man that I believe dedicated his entire life to doing good things, even though he may have been theatrical at times. If you saw him on Phil Donahue, when he came out of hiding, you saw the real Abbie Hoffman, who cared about saving the Hudson River and doing so many good things. And then feel that here is a man who says that no one is listening to me anymore. And I like he had two thousand dollars in the bank. I mean, it is like, unbelievable, just your thoughts on the loss of Abbie and Phil Ochs.
1:14:32
PK: Two thousand, that is a lot. [laughs]
1:14:35
SM: Yeah, well, those are that I remember that in because he lived in Bucks County.
1:14:39
PK: Yeah. Well, you know, it was always the loss of a personal friend. At the same time, the loss to the culture of what more they could have contributed. And because they were public figures, I got calls from the media asking for some kind of comment. And I had to put my grief on hold in order to kind of respond. And so you know you cannot. No one can experience the pain of someone else's suffering. Unless they suffer it themselves and you can identify with them but you feel pain that you cannot stop their pain but anybody that takes their own lives it is both cowardly and courageous, simultaneous. And Abbie had been on some meds and went off of them which had something to do with it. That is the thing about antidepressants they have tools because they give you suicidal tendencies and he had been he had been diagnosed as a manic depressive and clinically and so whereas Phil Ochs had incredible stomach pain and when he was in Africa, his throat had been slit and affected the singing and to a certain extent that nobody is listening to me anymore was in his case how some people thought he was better than Bob Dylan and but still Phil had outshone him and it was a disappointment. So, you know, these are just human emotions and human nature and the only way I can handle it is that I was grateful to be here when they were here. And in a way, they are still touchstones. You know, I will think of something that I might say on stage and this is the touchstone of Lenny is will be: hey come on, do not do that, it is a cheap shot. I mean, there was a point where I thought that I was channeling Lenny till one time that I said, come on Paul, know, you do not believe in that shit. So then I no longer channeled him. And Ken Keesey, he still appears in dreams. But you know it is just a projection of my memory of them. I do not give it any mystical, so, you know and but these are all people who have inspired us and as Dylan said, What can be better than inspiring unless you are Charles Manson and you are inspiring others. [laughs]
1:18:46
SM: Yeah, I did not even know Abbie Hoffman but, the mere fact that people have criticized him not during this interview process but people that I know through my life, and I read some of his books and I saw him on TV I always considered him a lot different than Jerry Rubin. And in so many ways because I felt that he had the gift of humor, like you do. And I can remember reading in certain books that even inmates, even the police liked him, because he made the police laugh.
1:19:26
PK: Oh, yeah,
1:19:27
SM: He made people feel good. They may not have liked the other guys, they may not have liked Tom Hayden, or Jerry Rubin or Dave Bellinger or whatever. They may not have liked them for certain reasons, but they somehow even his enemies kind of liked him. Because it was the way of who he was how he talked to people. He made them laugh.
1:19:48
PK: In "Confession" I described them. I said that Abbie was, that Jerry was the right lobe of the brain and Abbie, I am sorry, I am sorry. Jerry was the left lobe of the brain and Abbie was the right lobe of the brain. Jerry would calculate things and Abbie would just be spontaneous.
1:20:19
SM: Wow.
1:20:20
PK: Abbie was truly witty and Jerry he once told me that he would listen to a Lenny Bruce album before he went out to make a speech but you know, you cannot capture that it is not something you can set a trap for. Okay, now I have humor in there.
1:20:48
SM: Yeah, the spontaneity you going to have it or you do not.
1:20:52
PK: Yeah, I mean, I do not, you know one of my oxymoronic maximums is: practice spontaneity.
1:21:05
SM: A couple of general questions I have here because this is a book on the boomers and all the things you are talking about is have taken place in boomer lives and people experience these personalities in your work as well. When in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
1:21:28
PK: Well, for me, it began in 1958 when I launched The Realist and it ended I think in 1974? When Nixon resigned? Okay. How important do you think the, I have been asking this question is for college students in ending the Vietnam War? It might have been (19)95. I am not sure but anyway, whatever year it was, that was it.
1:22:02
SM: Yes. (19)74.
1:22:04
PK: A nice symbolic ending.
1:22:09
SM: Let us see, the (19)60s begin and end? Yeah. The question is, how important are college students in ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion during the (19)60s and early (19)70s and how important were the yippies in this process? So some people, again, whether they are the liberals or the conservatives, because I have interviewed a lot of conservatives and they have a totally different opinion. That is what is great about this book project. They have all different thoughts, but what parts did the yippies play in ending that war in Vietnam? And what part did the college students play?
1:22:50
PK: Hard give a percentage, but I think that the largest percent biggest percentage goes to the Vietcong. And, and who inspired the protesters in the state? You know? We were not in harm's danger the way they were. You know, it started with some black students who got shot down south in 1968, I am sorry, 1970. And, and then soon after that it in May that year, the Kent State killings occurred and this is, by the way the year this May be the fortieth anniversary of that.
1:23:44
SM: I am going to be there. Oh, you are?
1:23:47
PK: Yeah. You know I wrote a piece about that with the help of one of the one of the victims Allison Krause, her sister.
1:24:00
SM: Oh yes.
1:24:00
PK: Her sister Lauren, Laurel with her mother has been organizing this truth commission kind of thing for this fortieth anniversary so and because it was never quite understood why, like I can email you that article.
1:24:29
SM: Please do. I will be there for the first through the fourth.
1:24:36
PK: Yeah, it is going to be a powerful event but so many. Again, this is, you know, part of the history that people do not really know. I am sure it is not taught in Texas, I am sure it might only be bought locally in Ohio. Who knows! I remember that night watching the Walter Cronkite on CBS Evening News and he opened it was something like it finally happened. And you know, of course you think what finally happened? World peace suddenly? But he said how American students were shot dead by the National Guard and it was just a shock. Even though I have to admit that I said out loud, "good" and the reason was because I felt it happened already. Even while I thought that was a horrific tragedy, even while I felt that, I said that, because there was nothing I could do about it had already happened and now because I remember that shootings of the black students two months before that did not get much attention if at all, I mean, it got some but miniscule. And when I said good, I meant now they'll pay attention because these were four white students. Because I shocked myself when I said that and I had a, you know, think why did I, you know?
1:26:21
SM: The Kent State students were killed on the fourth of May and the African American students, the two that were killed at Jackson State eleven days later.
1:26:33
PK: They were killed at Jackson State?
1:26:35
SM: Yeah, they were killed at Jackson State. I think it was eleven days later.
1:26:41
PK: Oh, okay. I was not sure of the chronology. But in any case, you know, that only strengthens the point I was trying to make, which is that the white students will be much more attention paid to them than the black students so you would think, that is not to make less or to negate the killing of the whites but you know.
1:27:24
SM: I have to change my tape. Al right, we are back. One of the questions I have been asking.
1:27:37
PK: Oh, by the way it was not the Hudson River it was the St. Lawrence River that Abbie was working on.
1:27:44
SM: Oh that Abbie was working on? Yeah, yeah because you remember when he went on the Phil Donahue show? He was in Seattle I believe. Phil was on the road. I was living in the Bay Area from (19)76 to (19)83 and I remember when he came on, and he had been in hiding. So this is the first time we would come out. And he had an operation on his nose so he looked a little bit different and he was remarried. And he had been living with his. I thought I had been on the Hudson, but the St. Lawrence then and he had been really working hard to save the river and he had been doing it for quite a few years under a different name.
1:28:23
PK: Yeah, the name he used underground which was Barry Freed.
1:28:27
SM: Right. The question I have been asking you we took students to Washington D.C. in the mid (19)90s and we met Edmund Muskie, it was at that (19)68 convention. The students, none of them were born obviously at that time, but we came up with a question about healing. Because there was a perception that America was coming close to a second Civil War. I remember reading about it. Some people say yes, some people say no, but the divisions are so intense, and they even came about at that convention in Chicago. And of course, it was the year the two assassinations and the president resigning and then Tet took place early in the year. And the question was this, with all the divisions between black and white, gay and straight male and female, both who for the war those who are against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not, and all the divisions that took place, do you feel senator Muskie that we were close to a second civil war? And do you feel that this generation of seventy-four plus million people will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing? And I will tell you, the senator's response after, I would like to hear your response. Whether you think we have an issue with healing in this nation, within that seventy some generation. And of course, let me say this, Paul, I consider you a boomer even though you were born in thirty-two. When I interviewed Richie Havens, who was born in 1940, he said, I have always considered a lot of people do not like these terms, boomers and Generation X and all this other stuff. But there is a linkage between generations of people who think alike and who were influenced by. And many of the leaders of the antiwar movement were born between 1940 and (19)46. They were not boomers that were defined as people born in (19)46. So what I call our pre-boomers, and pre-boomers are people who have ideas that were very influential on the generation that came about after World War II. So do you feel that as a nation we have a problem with healing?
1:30:58
PK: But you are not talking about when Muskie said it.
1:31:02
SM: I am going to let you know what Muskie be said in response to that question.
1:31:06
PK: I see. I see.
1:31:07
SM: But do you feel we have an issue with healing?
1:31:11
PK: Now? But you mean now?
1:31:13
SM: Yes right now.
1:31:15
PK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But the first thing the prerequisite for healing is to acknowledge what needs to be healed and the reaction to Obama's health care plan is the prime example of the hostility for, racism which was, even though it will be denied and even though he won the presidency there is another civil war. It is that the first civil war never ended. And it has come to the surface.
1:32:15
SM: Guess what?
1:32:16
PK: I, you know, I thought there would be another revolution. I did not know what would be the Tea Baggers. But it is not a revolution. So I am just saying because I wrote that article contacting Abbie Hoffman and Glenn Beck.
1:32:35
SM: You are right on target Paul because what happened is Senator Muskie said he thought he was the same guy that we saw who cried on TV, which many people felt that he was not a man and he could not be president. He had tears in his eyes and he could not respond right away. He waited a minute. And the students really admired him for this. And he said, we have not healed since the Civil War, and he said he had just saw the Ken Burns series on television. He died six months later too. He was not well, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And he said that that series touched me because we lost 440,000 men. And if you consider the percentage of the population of America at that time, we almost lost an entire generation, particularly in the south. And so, he said, we had not healed since the Civil War, talking about racial issues and the divide between North and South. And so I have gotten a lot of different responses. And he did not even he did not even respond to (19)68.
1:33:43
PK: Muskie, I mean, everybody interprets events through the prism of their own subjectivity. And so I know conspiracy researchers who said, oh, yes, one of Nixon's men, slipped a tab of LSD this is something that Muskie set adrift. Other people had said that there were variety but, but the one thing that occurs to me and I can understand it because when I was just talking about Keesey before, I almost teared up. And what happened was Muskies opponent had said something about the Senator's wife. Yes. And he said when you do that, you know, then you are not too far from like that and that was when he started, you know, weeping a little bit. Now of course, that would be considered. I mean, that was just sort of sexism really. Because it was okay for women to cry but not a real macho man. And so if someone was to do that now, it would be considered a good healthy thing. And even a sign of respect. And I think what was that movie one of my favorite movies and I forget the name, not network. Broadcast was it? It was where William Hurt.
1:35:30
SM: Oh!
1:35:31
PK: Got fired from a show because he had tears flowing down his eyes listening to somebody but, but it was ̶
1:35:42
SM: Mmmm.
1:35:43
PK: It was edited in to that that context, and I think he did it later. But it was it was that kind of thing now, you know, it was, if Mitt Romney could cry at will he would do it.
1:35:58
SM: Well one of the other issues that I have been trying to solve, I just wanted to say too that it is interesting that Obama prefers to distance himself from the (19)60s generation. All the time, he said, I am not the (19)60s. Yet he was criticized by many of his opponents, by thinking that he is bringing back to the (19)60s with his mentality being way to the left. So I find it interesting that we have a leader who wants to distance himself from that era, of that well actually, the boomer generation and yet he has been criticized by his opponents as bringing it back. So talk about an oxymoron here.
1:36:38
PK: Well, but, you know, that the thing about giving names to decades and generations, is that it is not that clear cut and so he spoke like, you know, I was going to say, like a true Boomer but you know, the protestors is really were just a small percentage of the boomers. I mean, it was not, a lot of people kind of stick it together and they are boomer bashing instead of (19)60s bashing.
1:37:17
SM: But what is interesting is he actually is a boomer, if you look at the terms because it was those born between (19)46 and (19)64, was not he born in (19)64?
1:37:26
PK: Oh, so I, you know, in the novel of writing, the narrator is a female reporter who was born in (19)64, and her mother was born in (19)46 so ̶
1:37:40
SM: Oh!
1:37:41
PK: So they book end.
1:37:43
SM: Oh, yeah.
1:37:44
PK: And have a lot in common because they communicate not because of the year they were born. But the Obama thing, I think it is more of attitude that you know, Obama was the first politician admitted to smoking marijuana and somebody said you know what you inhaled, or you enjoyed it. And he said, well that was the point. Not saying oh, I experimented with it like all the other young guys, but he did it because he liked getting high. You know so that depicted that aging hippies could identify with was him no matter what, what generation they were part of.
1:38:40
SM: The other issue I bring up besides healing is the issue of trust. And this boomer generation seems to be a very a generation that doesn't trust for obvious reasons, seeing so many leaders had lied to them during their lifetime. Whether it be President Johnson or the Gulf of Tonkin certainly Watergate with Richard Nixon. Nobody trusted Gerald Ford when he was giving a pardon to Nixon. Eisenhower lied about the U2. There were things about President Kennedy and what happened in Vietnam. That were suspicious. And there is another even as boomers have aged, there has been things that leaders have done, but you cannot trust them. Is that a good quality to have within a generation is the lack of trust? Because I think a lot of people will say that that generation, if you talk about a quality, they just do not they did not trust people.
1:39:40
PK: Well, I and I think they have earned the distrust. I mean, it has become a given now, you know, it was not even what was the ̶ what was surprising, about John McCain, saying that he was never considered himself a maverick is that there is all this footage of him identifying himself as a maverick, and even using the word in the title of his autobiography! That was how shameless these politicians are. But you cannot generalize and that was why so many people thought, who voted for Obama, thought that he was, that he really did give people hope, a hope for change. And so, you know, I have got back and forth disappointment. Now I am pleased by this, I am disappointed by that. Because if he got into the presidency, under the delusion that it could be bipartisan and, you know, I think it is so evil of the republicans to have voted against the health care process, not because they truly believed it, but because the name of the game was to give Obama his Waterloo at the expense of the countless people who have ever suffer and die because of that. And so it is no wonder that people are discouraged and cynical.
1:41:44
SM: And it is difficult for you to say but you have had a lot of people who have friends who are boomers in this age group you have seen throughout your lifetime. And by looking at them you think they have been good parents and grandparents and respect to two things. Number one sharing history and what it was like when they were younger and in making comparisons between then and now. And secondly, the activism that was seemed to be so prevalent within this generation. And again, I get criticized when I keep saying the boomers are only 15 percent we are probably activists of the seventy-four million. But still, that is a lot of people.
1:42:23
PK: And it has always been that way that the majority of people have a certain sheepishness about them. And it was Margaret Mead, who says, you know, individually, small groups of people can sometimes accomplish more. So it is not numbers but in the attitude of the public attention and having them ̶ see the contradiction. Its leadership.
1:43:05
SM: Yeah, you had a great quote in fact I got one chapter in the Grateful Dead Play the Pyramids. You have a line at the end of a paragraph here "what we need to do now", and this you are doing this with your beautiful satire though, "what we need to do now is hire Mexican workers as guest protesters so they can do the job that Americans do not want to do". And you were referring to the Bush administration and what was going on in the war in Iraq and making some comparisons. There was a draft during the Vietnam War now there is not really anything now of comparison. So that to me, is not that what you are really saying here?
1:43:49
PK: Oh, wait, did I say that in the context of the Grateful Dead?
1:43:53
SM: No, it was in the chapter. It was in the section the parts left out Chicago Ten.
1:44:00
PK: Oh yeah the Chicago Ten movement.
1:44:02
SM: Yeah. Yeah, I just think that is a beautiful statement, although people from people could miss read it, but that is to me it is satire and it hits it in a way that it connects truth.
1:44:17
PK: But I have said that on stage and the audience laughs and it is the kind of laugh that moves into applause because they take an image of you know, hiring of Mexican workers to march since, they have had proof of it in Los Angeles. But I do not, you know, I am used to being misunderstood. I want to be understood. But I think it was ̶ who said, please do not understand me too quickly. And that is one of the risks of trying to be as free as you can. Is being misunderstood and but, you know it. And that is why there is a need for damage control. [laughs] Or as I said that Toyota has borrowed McDonald's slogan, you deserve a break today. But you know a lot of the things or for the pope excommunicates himself, you know, a devout Catholic, might be offended by that, but you know, I cannot. It is just that that is the simple statement, you cannot please everybody. So, you know, any artist usually they want to reach as many people as possible but when it gets commercial art, then you kind of aim to a lower common denominator. And so I tried to aim for the highest common denominator and Dan O'Neill, a cartoonist said something real. And he said we have to remember we are not ̶ we are not fearless. And meaning that you know, that I thought my job as articulating the consciousness of the readers that I was just I had an outlet, before the internet, we are now the outlet and the creativity and imagination and insight and abilities of these citizen reporters and citizen video makers have make everybody an investigative reporter, or anybody can. You know, it helps to have training, but if you get a story that a ̶ journalist can all the better. The more the information there is, the more opportunities for people who deal in disinformation. To counteract it. I mean, that is the whole thing is that that really that we talked about that the republicans in cahoots with the pharmaceutical and the insurance industries have a tremendous propaganda machine and the only thing scarier than that is how many people swallow the line of that propaganda and it was disheartening. I mean, there are still people who think that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911 even though it was finally denied. So, but you know, I think it was Mel Brooks says 95 percent of everything is bad. So it could be with, whether it is the movies or TV or Twitter, or whatever the medium is. And so if there was a, an ebb and a flow of power, you know, I did not even know the pope had approval ratings one way or the other, but, but it is being lowered now. Oh my god. Yes. So you know, it is so it is one big popularity contest and, public relations can hurt or help.
1:49:40
SM: Obviously, you are a little bit older and so was Jerry and Abbie and some of the Merry Pranksters, they were a little bit older. What when they were seeing these young people coming up on college campuses in the mid to late (19)60s and of course, SDS and the black power movement. And the women's movement then in the early, late (19)60s, early (19)70s, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano movement, Native American, I mean, they all kind of came about same time. Some of them were, some of the leaders were followers were the younger ones but did you ever sit down as a group? And not just talk strategy but talk about what you thought about the generation known as the boomers. Did you think they were intellectually had generation just seen before? Were they smart? Were they knowledgeable? Were they courageous? What may have been some of the positive and negative thoughts you had on the generation?
1:50:52
PK: I do not think we ever referred then as the boomers.
1:50:55
SM: Okay.
1:50:57
PK: I do not know when the use of that term really started. Or, when it was popularized. We thought more of them in terms of their belief system and how they acted on it. And I say how they acted on it because I was a militant atheist. Until I realized at a certain point that Martin Luther King who had agreed to be interviewed by me, but the assassination interrupted that possibility. But he was but he, he was a Christian. And I interviewed George Lincoln Rockwell, the head of the American Nazi Party, and he considers himself an agnostic. So the epiphany for me was that it really did not make any difference. What anybody believed it was just how they treated others, you know, ultimately and so for your question there, oh about sitting around and boomers and so it was just easy, you know, either they were not for some it was whether they did psychedelics or not, and those were the students but it was really about I guess the closest encounter I had to that was with my brother who was while I was protesting about the war he was involved with selling helicopters that were being used Vietnam. And, so I, I felt that he was not an evil person I knew that and that he had a high security level, level of clearance and which almost was damaged by my being his brother. But, the thing is that he once said that in his lines of work that he was trying to make himself replaceable, you know, you could continue to drop along the line and I said oh, I was trying to make myself irreplaceable. So in other words, where he was talking about what was the kind of the machine grinding on and it was and so there was a level of conformity you have to do you know when you are in the corporate empire and so he was part of that scene and yet his contribution was perhaps greater than mine which was he was the co-author of the first textbook on space communication and he could appreciate the irony that people would come up to him and say you are Paul Krassner’s brother. And you know, it was only because I did stuff that got me the attention and he did not. But and so that is why that is why whatever level of fame I have, I do not take it seriously because it has nothing to do with, with me it has to do with whatever people's image of me is so because I try not to take the criticism personally, in the same sense I do not take the praise personally, just because I know if I want to praise somebody else's work, it is just an expression of my appreciation and it connects me with that person. But I have learned, you know, once I got passed my false humility that it was a mutual thing that all these people that I fell in with from Abbie Hoffman to Tim Leary, Ram Daas, Ken Kesey, that there was a mutuality, you know, we respected each other. And that was not a one way thing like, you know, a fan and the celebrity.
1:56:12
SM: Okay. You just liked being around each other.
1:56:16
PK: Liked what?
1:56:17
SM: You just like being around each other.
1:56:19
PK: Ah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, it was interesting because a lot of these leaders were serious but they all had a sense of playfulness too you know, as I discovered when I was at some party, there were a lot of new age gurus. And I had just been covering the Patty Hearst trial and standing around in the kitchen at this party and the gurus were talking about some of the difficulties they will have with their servants and I said you know, that was just what I what the Hearsts were talking about. So, you know, that was my role. To be a court jester.
1:57:11
SM: Do you think it was a mistake for Jerry Rubin to say do not trust anyone over thirty, he was twenty-nine when he said it. I know somebody who will say that is the most one of the most ridiculous statements ever because he was one year away from being thirty himself.
1:57:26
PK: Well, it is a mistake to believe that Jerry Rubin said it.
1:57:30
SM: Okay.
1:57:31
PK: It was said by Jack Weinberg at the free speech movement that sort of triggered the free speech movement. He had been arrested and was in a police car on the Berkeley campus, which got surrounded by students. The police cars could not move. And then other people were jumping on top of the police car and bouncing on it. And then he was in the backseat ok, officers are in the front at this point.
1:58:12
SM: So he was the one that said it.
1:58:14
PK: I always think that, I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. I, you know, I, and I knew it was ageist and I knew it was a generalization and argued against it. You know, I argued that you needed people on the inside, if we were over thirty, like Daniel Ellsberg, who released defense who was in a position to really defend risk takers.
1:58:35
SM: Right, right.
1:58:36
PK: So I tried my best not to generalize like that, but it was it was a statement. It was rhetoric really. And, it was just, it was just kind of acknowledging that there was a certain generation gap. But it was not meant that literally any more when Abbie Hoffman said kill your parents, and he had two kids, and he was not wanting them to kill him, and Jerry Rubin borrowed that. And Jerry Rubin was an orphan so it was a moot point. And, you know, there was some rivalry between them and the National Enquirer picked up Jerry saying that and he was on the front page of the Enquirer, the picture of Jerry saying, and the headline was something like: Yippie leader says "kill your parents."
1:59:38
SM: Oh, my gosh!
1:59:41
PK: I objected to it. Ironically, because it would be misunderstood but it was obviously a historical metaphor about it was like when I when I left college with only three credits needed to graduate, one course. I was killing my parents, in a sense, in that sense. I mean, that is the sense it meant, symbolically. Not living up to the vision that they had, that you would become.
2:00:19
SM: Well, I know that Miri Savio, when the leader will always the main speaker of that movement. He is ̶ there is a brand new book out it is a very good book by Dr. Croen from NYU, I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. And he talks about the fact that it was the differences there was that his generation, that generation of the Free Speech Movement was we were a generation of ideas. And we are not a generation of careers like our parents. And that was the big split right there. And I interviewed Arthur Chickering, the great educator who wrote Education and Identity which was a textbook used in higher education, the early (19)70s and when I interviewed him, he was telling me the biggest weakness today in the university is we have gone back to exactly what it was before the Free Speech Movement we would become a corporate University again. And that is his biggest criticism as an educator is the corporations are priority number one in higher education and of course, Clark Kerr's Multiversity, and he explained that back then the students were trying to change it, but I guess what goes around comes around again. I have a couple more questions here. How long were you involved with Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters? Who were they and why are they important as cultural figures?
2:01:47
PK: Well, Let us see. I did not go on the bus trip. But Kesey always said you are either on the bus or off the bus but he said to me, you were on the bus even though you were not on the bus. And so it was about, I met him first, he had read The Realist and Kesey told me that when I published the issue with the parts of that out of the Kennedy book, which had to do with an act of presidential necrophilia, in a context built up in literary form of apocrypha so that started to think it was totally true and then things that were known by reporters but not by the general public, and then things that were happening and leading up to this climactic scene. And so, Neal Cassidy who was driving the bus and one day he was reading this and he handed back issue too Kesey and said and fit, hey chief, you better take a look at this. And, so we knew of each other's work and then I met him for the first time at the Berkeley campus during the first Vietnam feature and which I was emceeing and he came up to me and continued a conversation that had never started. He did not introduce himself, he just came up and said his wife, you know, Fay was just as saying; because the connection already existed before we actually met and I mean, I was fortunate to have a magazine where I could meet these people and interview them and you know, and they would and I could never have that opportunity interacting with it without the magazine. And so the point I was going to make. It will come back.
2:04:37
SM: The Merry Pranksters?
2:04:39
PK: Well anyway, and then that was I think around (19)65 maybe. And then in 1970, I got a call from Stewart Brand, publishing the Whole Earth Catalog and he had asked Kesey to edit the last supplement for the Whole Earth Catalog, and Kesey said he would do it if I could co-edit it with them and so Brand called me up and asked me that and I remember answering yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! And when I moved to the west coast San Francisco and then Venice Beach. And so we became close friends during that time when we were putting out preparing the last supplements. And then I spent a lot of, we would spend Christmas there sometimes and my daughter Holly and I would, that is how Holly became part of the extended family and, and then I did go on, there was a reunion bus trip and I went, I did go on that. But until we get to the heart of your question what the original bus trip went across country. It looked like you know, kids used to want to run away with the circus this way they wanted to hitch a ride on, on the bus further, right? It was colorful. It was humorous. It was gentle. It was like a traveling the guerrilla theater and the people who joined in became part of it. You know, we just hung around and talk to people on the bus or marvel about all of the paintings that were around it and so it was it was a certain kind of, it turns people on. And, you know, it was like a movie, you know the colorful gas, but with these colorful figures popping out it was like aliens in a way. And I remember on the on the reunion trip Kesey was at the back of the bus and he was filling balloons with helium and with a string attached and giving them to kids and this woman and her young son came by and he gave one and the mother gave Kesey a quarter. And he said, with a smile, so she would know he was kidding. He said, "what a quarter? I am a famous author, madam." And she did this double take she did not know whether she had embarrassed him or, or whether she should give him $1.00 was a nice moment, as it was, you know, it was revealing his personality that he was doing that he did not assign it to somebody.
2:08:22
SM: Right.
2:08:23
PK: And, and he was he was always gregarious. He and I did a lot of events together and then we would hang around with the college booking people or whoever organized the event. And Kesey said that was really part of the deal so they could hang around. And it was true. And humbling, you know, which brings me right back to your original question about how I felt about my life. You know, whether I was proud of it and it was more of more, more gratitude than pride. And you know, both often as an atheist, you know, I, I still felt gratitude but there was a phrase I used in one of my books The Tell Tales of Kung Foo about a man with a fifteen inch Schwanz and very popular with the ladies.
2:09:36
SM: Hmm.
2:09:37
PK: And one of the characters in that says, God never says you are welcome. And I thought yeah that that, that that summed it up. I am in awe of nature and of evolution and lately becoming almost as much in awe of technology.
2:10:00
SM: Of course Ken Kesey he was a great writer too, yeah a great writer. Because of your work with The Realist and your magazine articles and everything and books you were able to link up with these people. You linked up with the Beats. I know there is things in there about Allen Ginsberg and obviously some of the Merry Pranksters, I think. Neal Cassidy was one, I believe, and um, how important were the Beats? I know there is this section in one of your books where Jack Kerouac is asked about whether the Beats were part of a social movement of protests, and he said, no, we were just, we were not about social protest. And he disagreed with Allen Ginsberg on this, on some sort of a panel.
2:10:48
PK: It was not a panel, this was at the twenty-fifth anniversary of the publication of On the Road.
2:10:53
SM: Right.
2:10:53
PK: And it was in Golden, Colorado at Naropa, the Buddhist College.
2:11:01
SM: Yes.
2:11:02
PK: I was a moderator and the panelists were William Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Abbie Hoffman and Tim Leary.
2:11:07
SM: Is that on tape? That should be a documentary that should be on tape! That should be seen! Golly!
2:11:15
PK: I probably have a cassette of that particular panel.
2:11:20
SM: Wow.
2:11:22
PK: And I quoted from it in ̶ biography and it was so it was, so Ginsberg and Abbie were, were arguing about whether the, this panel title has something to do with, with a socially activist ̶
2:11:47
SM: Mm hmm.
2:11:48
PK: And, and Abbie's, Allen's point was that Kerouac and the Beats, they were neither winning nor losing this conspiracy. And Abbie argued, you know, that you were being political, when, when you hired that case that that lawyer obscenity case you wanted to win so, and that was Abbie's point of view. And I asked as moderator when Ginsberg had said that, I asked Abbie, well I forget how I phrased it but I quoted Abbie for quoting Che Guevara who said in a revolution one wins or dies. And so, so it was really a discussion about not winning or losing but winning and losing were kind of equal in the sense and it gave me a flashback to when I was an adolescent. And I played baseball and basketball. And I never cared if my team won or not. I just played my best, you know, it has just been because I was obsessed with infinite time and space, it would give me a headache. So I, you know, and so a game like that, you know, I could understand how people get disappointed or get thrilled, depending on whether they lost or won.
2:13:28
SM: Right.
2:13:30
PK: But, you know, ultimately it was just a game. And unfortunately, that is the way the politicians are, going back to why there is much skepticism. To them it is just a game,
2:13:45
SM: Right.
2:13:45
PK: And the goal of the game is to get reelected and so and so their occupation has become fundraising.
2:13:59
SM: Appreciate it.
2:14:00
PK: It is simulating so you know.
2:14:02
SM: Yeah, your, your life is just like, I wish I was in person I could interview all day, eight hours. I mean, you got so much and I have so many questions here. And I am not going to get into all of them. But one of the things here is, it is, I am fascinated because you obviously are a very outgoing person because you have made so many friends in so many different areas, whether it be the yippies or the merry pranksters or the beats or writers all over the country. You name it. I even saw you on TV. I saw a video on TV where you were on a panel with the former mayor of San Francisco's daughter. She was on there you were reminiscing the (19)60s.
2:14:44
PK: Oh, wait was that Alioto?
2:14:50
SM: Yes, she [Angela Alioto] was she was the daughter of the mayor of San Francisco. She was on the panel. You spoke and she spoke in it and she made a comment about you know, the she her dad kind of hid her from things, but she had to sneak out to enjoy the (19)60s as a seventeen year old or something like that.
2:15:07
PK: That is right. Yep. I remember at a dinner party that my daughter gave where I told her about, when I had a radio show in San Francisco. Her dad was going to be somebody, the producer arranged for him. No it was not arranged. I did not have a producer, it was that they were on tour with the mayor and his bodyguard, whoever they were ̶ And he and he wanted to be on the program ̶ perform an interview, but I was but I was told that I could not ask a certain question about some rent control or some question that he had been involved in. And I said if I cannot ask him that I am not going to interview him for that. So I think a guy from the news department interviewed him instead.
2:16:12
SM: Oh my gosh!
2:16:14
PK: I got a kick out of that.
2:16:17
SM: One of the things about Timothy Leary, of course, Ram Daas, I did not know that he had a stroke. He was that I saw him on television just the other day on some sort of a documentary. But one of the things when I interviewed people, and I mentioned these names at the very end for just responses and comments. I have not gotten one positive on Timothy Leary. Everybody's negative about them in every single way. And when they mentioned Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman, and occasionally some people talk about Abbie and nobody will ever say anything positive about Jerry Rubin. But the question is this, he is known for his slogan "tune in, turn on, drop out" and for a lot of people that believed that the ̶ (19)60s was all about not tuning in turning on and dropping out but about being out there on the front lines like the yippies were. Seems like that is even counter to yippie thinking that you can turn on, yes. But to drop out? Just your thoughts on that slogan and whether that is really hurt his image overall beyond his links to drugs because that is the biggest negative.
2:17:35
PK: First of all, since You have gotten, let me first say, you know, I have positive things to say about Abbie. Positive things to say about Jerry Rubin and Jerry Rubin got criticized a lot because he became a yuppie.
2:17:51
SM: Yep.
2:17:52
PK: And they went around, toured the map, Abbie and Jerry went around having debates, the yippies versus the yuppies which I moderated. At one point, I made a remark that they were throwing money in the stock exchange. Today, that means then, this time Jerry would invest it. And of course Leary, Leary was a friend and I have positive things to say about him. You know, the point is that people remember what the media said about them. And I just know one thing that Kesey said to me, we were talking about his image. And he said, and he said, the difference between his energy and his image, my energy is what I do. My image is what people think I do.
2:18:51
SM: Mmm.
2:18:52
PK: And so that is, that is the way it is, and people get used to shorthand used to describe people and it becomes like a quick caricature. And you know, or the movies I have seen whether it is a biopic about Billie Holiday or Lenny or others that I might know personally, it is always difficult. I did not know Billie Holiday but the thing happened to her but people who did see the movie were horrified by how it left out the basic truth but he died on the way to the hospital because other hospitals would not admit her because she was black. And that was not in the movie. How could it not be? And so the same thing with Lenny and the same thing with a movie about Abbie, and so people get the images from the entertainment rather than from history.
2:19:53
SM: Mm hmm.
2:19:54
PK: And so what exactly was your question then?
2:20:01
SM: It was whether you think that that philosophy have "tune in, turn on, drop out" it seems to be a negative term and just about everybody I have spoken to. You know, when I mentioned the name, that is all they think of is "tune in, turn on, drop out".
2:20:18
PK: [Inaudible]
2:20:19
SM: And even on television a week ago, you might even be able to find it on CNN, they were up at Harvard University, and they were interviewing college students at Harvard, they said, did you know that the LSD was started here at Harvard? And the students were saying, yes, yes, I know. But then some said, do you want to talk about it? Have you ever taken it? And some said, yes. And another said, no. And then some would say, I am not going to talk about it. And they all knew who Timothy Leary was, but there was a perception that it was a negative for Harvard. That was the bottom line.
2:20:57
PK: Yeah, and understood. That you know, they have no inclination of countercultural history. Even though it is part of history, it is marginalized. And so it is understandable, you know, there is probably people now who think that Abbie Hoffman is the Congresswoman from upstate you know, and it is their fault. But they cannot be resented for it, they just did not learn about it and the more time goes on the more there is to learn and is unlearned. You know, that is unfortunate, but the people that they did influence are the better for it. And you cannot win them all. Or you cannot lose them all.
2:21:55
SM: Right. The one thing I have here and again, these are just direct questions to you. Do you think your links to the issue hurts your effectiveness as a cultural critic as a satarist now and I am might even be saying with Tim Leary's image, the idea here is that drugs take you away from reality? Do not you have to be in reality to change it? And, I know I have read your books and I understand the experience and some writers say they can even write better on marijuana or LSD, some of these other experiences. But do you think people are ever going to understand drugs and understand not only obviously a part of history, but the effect that has and there is still this all it is always negative, it is all negative?
2:22:48
PK: Well, that is because it goes back to the propaganda machine. The Partnership for Drug Free America was founded and funded by the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries for all of whom a drug, a weed that you grow in your garden, your window garden for nothing was a threat to the economy, to their, their industry why would anybody if they had all the facts want to smoke cigarettes they have killed one thousand two hundred people a day or marijuana which gives you a good feeling and it is not addictive as cigarettes are and who and that make that allows people to be more social and they credit it as being an aid to creativity or ̶ or for medicine now that now that you seem to be on the point of it is possibly marijuana possibly becoming legal, and the right thing being done for the wrong reason you know they are not doing it as a as a moral imperative they are doing it because the country's going broke and so it has gotten bad press and but more and more, just like gays came out of the closet, people are coming, you know, Ellen DeGeneres was on the cover of Time saying yep, I am gay and it is possible that they'll have it a photo of somebody on the cover of Newsweek saying, yep, I am stoned. I think that will be an advance. Because as long as any government can arbitrarily decide which drugs are illegal or illegal, then anybody in prison on the on the nonviolent drug offense is a political prisoner. That is my position.
2:25:35
SM: Just a couple more, and then we are going to be done. Okay, now looking at the music of the era, you know, it is too much to ask you, you know, every musician that you are liked, but when you look at all of your experiences in the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and maybe the (19)80s, or even beyond, are there a few songs that stand out more than any other that you feel had the greatest influence? You personally maybe number two, the whether it be the merry pranksters or the yippies or just the boomer generation as a whole those born after (19)46 which musician which musicians and music or specific songs have the greatest impact.
2:26:20
PK: Oh, Let us see. I guess the one that comes to mind is John Lennon's Imagine.
2:26:32
SM: Mm hmm.
2:26:33
PK: Because, you know, it was outrageous to hear a song with "imagine no religion", and then here is played by muzak in an elevator. So you know, and I would love the Senate Glee Club singing “Imagine no possessions." But anyway, it was really ̶ song of uniting people rather than fighting at that song was really about. And, and I think that is what but no one either as a (19)60s generation or whatever. But whatever it is that the thing that stands out about that like Woodstock, that there was a sense of community and their sense of cooperation as opposed to competition. And, so those, those are the qualities that fight for advance and you know, there are there are people who say they are always good and evil. And um, but, but you know, and if that is true I remember once I was saying, it is never going to end and he said what? And I said when is it going to end this battle between good and evil. And my friend said, maybe never. And suddenly I was relieved. So, just do the best you can, instead of trying to save the world to start with yourself and work your way out.
2:28:54
SM: Very good advice.
2:28:55
PK: With the thought that the people that you have touched, will work their way out. And at least it is not so overwhelming a soul as to change world. You know. Socrates said, know thyself. Norman Mailer said "be thyself" and the counterculture said "change thyself."
2:29:24
SM: Hmm.
2:29:24
PK: But that that is the evolution of "know thyself"
2:29:29
SM: Essentially because I was coming right into the terms. I have probably half the interviews I have done and not the early one back in the late (19)90s. When I first started this, and that is, there were three terms that seemed to stand out symbolizing the boomer generation that grew up after 1946 to (19)64. And then asked people to respond to these three and then one came up, which was a fourth one. The first one was Malcolm X said "by any means as necessary" they were symbolizing the more radical, violent aspects that whether it be the Weatherman or some people; black power, the Black Panther Party or the Young Lords and the Chicano movement, what happened at the end of the AIM situation (19)73 at Wounded Knee. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, which was Henry David Thoreau's quotes. I do not usually get the quote 100 percent right but you do "some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and asked why not" which is symbolic.
2:30:36
PK: Bobby Kennedy said that.
2:30:37
SM: Yes, but it was originally a Henry David Thoreau quote.
2:30:41
PK: Oh, I did not realize.
2:30:42
SM: Yeah, and that symbolized the activism, the concept that I want to make a difference in this world and I am going to fight injustice and make the world a better place to live. And the third one was kind of what was on a Peter Max poster in 1971, which I thought was more of a hippie mentality, which was "you do your thing and I will do mine if by chance we should come together it will be beautiful." That was a Peter Max poster is saying I know that was very popular in (19)71. And the other one that came up from other people was We Shall Overcome symbolizing the civil rights movement. And the only other one that a few people have said is John Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for, ask what you can do for your country. And then the Timothy Leary too quote that I mentioned earlier, are there some quote You have already mentioned quite a few quotes today, even some of the yippie quotes and your quotes and is there a quote that you feel is also very important that defines the boomer generation?
2:31:48
PK: Not the boomers or the boomer generation, I was going to put people identified. Yes, it could be. With Harry Chapin the singer songwriter said "If you do not act like there is hope there is no hope."
2:32:03
SM: Hmm.
2:32:07
PK: And then there is my own which is "If you eat a pub sandwich at a delicatessen, be sure to take the toothpick out for your first bite."
2:32:19
SM: That is a good one.
2:32:20
PK: That is my philosophy.
2:32:21
SM: That is a very good one.
2:32:23
PK: You got to be practical before you get into the deep stuff.
2:32:28
SM: Right?
2:32:29
PK: If you have a bleeding upper palate, it is not no fun.
2:32:34
SM: It is a good point uh, Paul when you think of the ̶
2:32:37
PK: Was the pun intended?
2:32:38
SM: What?
2:32:38
PK: You said "good point", no pun intended?
2:32:41
SM: No! no! No! No pun intended.
2:32:43
PK: Pun intended.
2:32:45
SM: P.U.N. right?
2:32:46
PK: P.U.N. as in toothpick.
2:32:48
SM: Yes. The pictures. I think I know what you are going to say in this because I read one of your books that the pictures that you feel define the generation because pictures say a thousand words, oftentimes, and when I thought of the (19)60s and (19)70s, I think of three pictures that came to mind and but when you think of, say the (19)50s (19)60s (19)70s or (19)80s, what are the pictures that come to your mind photographs that were in front of newspapers or magazines that if they had not read a thing they could, it would tell a lot about the time that we are talking about.
2:33:26
PK: Well there are two sides to pick from, besides the big one, one is a horror picture of a group of people including a little naked girl running in Vietnam had just had been splashed with Napalm.
2:33:43
SM: Thats Kim Phuc, that is one of them.
2:33:46
PK: Uh, huh .And, on the other hand, it was a poster. It was originally going to be it was "the war is over." And I think it was and the design on a poster was going to be that classic one of from World War II of the sailor kissing a woman on the street. And feminism was an early contemporary feminism, was in it is early phase and so there was a kind of sensitivity to even the implication of that, you know that it is good that the war was over, but that was no reason to impose yourself on a stranger and so to be politically correct, there was a photo on the poster of a Vietnamese woman with her arms outstretched and there was doves, white doves, perched on her arms in that gesture.
2:34:57
SM: Wow.
2:34:59
PK: And that is kind of the anecdote to the other one.
2:35:05
SM: Of the three that I was thinking of in that you mentioned one. One was the three athletes at the 1968 Olympics, the black power with the fists up. Right.
2:35:17
PK: Tommy Smith and John Carlos and the third one was the girl over the body at Kent State. Jeff Miller was shot and Mary Vecchio that made the front cover of Newsweek and won the Pulitzer Prize that picture. And the one that I thought you were going to mention was the one of the gentlemen putting flowers in a gun at the 1967 protest at the Pentagon. Oh, yeah, that ̶ actually was yippie organized. He was known as "Super Joel."
2:35:55
SM: Mm hmm.
2:35:57
PK: But the other one also stands out. Another horrible one was the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese general shooting?
2:36:07
SM: Yes.
2:36:08
PK: Sitting there on his knees, shot him in the head.
2:36:10
SM: Yep.
36:10
PK: That, that kind of remains.
2:36:12
SM: Another one was the, the My Lai massacre where you have the picture of all the people alive and then all of them dead on the ground.
2:36:21
PK: Yeah.
2:36:21
SM: That, that is a, that is a terrible picture too.
2:36:23
PK: There was a photo I had taken by Paul Avery a reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle who investigated the Zodiac and Patty Hurst case, and he had been in Vietnam and the photo which I had on my wall many years. And it was of both mother and child, obviously has been geared by Vietnam, just looking out in horror, looking directly at you. And then when my daughter came to live with me, she said Daddy, why do you have that on the wall? And I said, Well, you know, it puts my problems in perspective. But then one time, after I had been living there for ten years, Ken Kesey came to visit us and we had such a relationship that he could get away with this and he just ripped it off the wall and he said it is time to take that off the wall. And you know, you would not want a stranger to do that, but, but I saw Kesey's point of view and you know, because but I had wanted to see it because that picture so horrified me at first it just became part of the scenery you know, you can ̶
2:37:33
SM: Right.
2:37:36
PK: Just repetition just each time I looked at it another level, another layer of edge was taken off and it just and it was kind of a metaphor for horror in general you know what people have gone on through that, you know, you cannot really remember pain, you can remember having it but and then so it is like that with art. You have it on your wall and then it is there and it is there and that is it. But if you move it to another place in the house and you are tense again. But I think what has happened is a lot of people have become inured to horror by twenty-foor/seven news cycles as well as all of the Chainsaw Massacre movies. Just part of the culture.
2:38:54
SM: You cannot end an interview without a couple of things that you said in your book that needs to be on record. That is the, the positives of the counterculture. I am very pleased that you have given me the names of these individuals to interview to make sure that their point of view is heard and it will be. But in your book, you mentioned four or five items here that are very positive results, lasting results of the counterculture. And I just want to mention them, and you can expound on any of them if you want to, but organic food, environmental movements, the alternatives spiritual practices, which I see all the time with our students, alternative medical practices, certainly the peace movements that are ongoing even though we would like to see more of them. Organic food is a big one. It is part of our life now. And so, if You have any thoughts on what any more that you can say about some of the positive results of the counterculture that the critics never mentioned,
2:40:03
PK: Well, well, what we really wanted we wanted to have people in the future party with a (19)60 theme where everybody could have oregano in a baggie and give it to other people, in their tie-dyed shirts. That was our real goal.
2:40:31
SM: I did not hear you what? I said that was our real goal. To inspire (19)60s fashion parties in the (19)70s and (19)80s. Really?
2:40:41
PK: Not really! But you have to take the risk of being misunderstood.
2:40:48
SM: I do not remember reading that in the list. Go ahead. [laughs]
2:40:57
PK: But it is as if but it is as if that was it that is the only you know, evolution continues and, and something else deems campy when it was the way that we lived our lives. But you know and so that is why it is important not to remain frozen in the (19)60s, because I would miss a lot of this century then.
2:41:33
SM: You, obviously you are really anybody who is in a position of responsibility or I do not want to say always authority but somebody who is out there speaking their mind having points of view the ultimate integrity, Arthur Chickering, the great educator Rhodes educated identities, said the ultimate is integrity. Integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for. I know what I believe in. I am willing to be criticize and praised for it. I am strong enough to take both. And I believe you are that kind of person too. And it is interesting when you have the kinds of critics here like a Harry Reasoner, I remember this. I remember Harry Reasoner I remember he did not treat. Forget her name very well, when she was on television with him, um Barbara Walters. "Krassner not only attacks, establishment values, he attacks, decency in general." You have got to be a pretty strong person to be able to handle that kind of stuff.
2:42:31
PK: Oh, well, I never. I was amused by it and the noise of being coupled with Joe McCarthy when he said that McCarthy and I were the only people that Harry Reasoner would not shake hands with if he met them as part of his professional career.
2:42:54
SM: Wow.
2:42:55
PK: And so I was annoyed by the fact that says Senator Joe McCarthy had immunity from with everything he said whereas I had to deal with the possibility of libel so I was amused by it otherwise and was going to try to arrange with a photographer friend that could get me into a party where Harry Reasoner was going to be just so I could introduce myself and put my hand out to shake so that the photographers could get a photo of that and then I could publish it with his quote underneath.
2:43:42
SM: Hmm.
2:43:43
PK: I never got around, but you know, I just had learned that he said for his needs, not mine
2:44:00
SM: And of course he died way too early too I think he fell down stairs or something like that.
2:44:06
PK: But again I had a one person show in Los Angeles and it was called Attacking Decency in General, so nothing gets wasted.
2:44:19
SM: Right! [laughs]One couple things I want to throw in here I love the quote you had in your book Dave Dellinger said "the power of the people is our permit." I thought that was a beautiful that is a quote. And of course Phil Ochs, even though he has passed on. I Ain't Marchin' Anymore is still a very important music that goes through many generations. So his legacy lives on.
2:44:52
PK: In fact, a documentary about Phil Ochs in production now.
2:44:59
SM: Oh, really? That is good.
2:45:00
PK: But that will hopefully bring a, somebody is also writing a screenplay about him. And Sean Penn originally wanted to do something about him and play him and even do the singing. So it is good that is his legacy.
2:45:22
SM: I am down to my final two questions here. And one of them is the Twinkie defense. I cannot as another term that came from you. And that is because I did not know until I read the book that that that term came from you. And of course, I lived in the Bay Area when that happened. I was in Burlingame. And I was there from (19)76 to (19)83. So I was out there when all this happened, and the two killings and then the trial and, and then of course, he committed suicide a couple years later, but just your thoughts on comparing that experience of being out there in San Francisco when all this happened to compared to some of the other things, this is like this is (19)78 now we are talking about this is not the (19)60s.
2:46:12
PK: Well, you know what, I covered the Patty Hearst case and a trial and, and the Dan White trial and I was struck by the contrast between because Patty Hearst was kidnapped and forced to be present with a machine gun when a bank was robbed. And she had to and she was, and she was found guilty. Whereas, Dan White deliberately committed a double political execution and got off easy and that is it summed up by Lenny Bruce's maximum that "In the halls of justice the only justice is in the halls."
2:47:09
SM: Hmm. Wow. Yeah because I, I was I were you outdoors that day when Joan Baez was singing it was the outdoor event? It was after the I guess the caskets were inside City Hall and they had that event out there they had a flyer and seemed like?
2:47:33
PK: Oh yeah, I remember that.
2:47:34
SM: There were thousands of people.
2:47:35
PK: Marching with candles.
2:47:36
SM: Yes. It was an unbelievable experience to be there, another person murdered.
2:47:46
PK: Because I got caught in the post-verdict riot and beat by the cops and which affected my whole posture and my gait. So it is you know, it had its own effect on me.
2:48:00
SM: Right, how you doing?
2:48:02
PK: Well, I have walk with a cane now, so I would skip over that. But you know, I would like to do it over. But I have to accept the reality of it. So.
2:48:18
SM: I think Rex Weiner said that he was there too. He was there. Maybe not with you what with others after that verdict was given, he was pretty upset. And the last question I have here is, again, it is kind of goes back to the first question. How do you feel as time passes? As all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on I am feeling this now and I am 60, my parents felt this when all their friends were going on. I saw them in the World War II generation. And it is like, it worries me because I worry our history just is not there when we are gone. But here is my question. How do you feel as time passes as all the people who experienced what you experienced pass on? Are you fearful that one: time will wipe out you and your peers history away from the history books, because of the people who will be writing it when the boomer generation is all gone? They did not live during that period. And secondly, fear that the future writers will look at the yippies, your work as nothing but the theatrics? Acting childish, adults never growing up? No real meaning beyond what I just mentioned, because that has been some of the critics of a lot of the boomer generation, that they never grew up.
2:49:50
PK: That is a good question because I have thought about that and you know, I had the fantasy that my autobiography would become required reading because it has gotten a lot of praise and it was Art, the fellow who wrote Art Spiegelman who wrote Maus, and got a Pulitzer prize for it, and they called my book the definitive book about the (19)60s and because my life kind of was a microcosm of how that evolved. And so that is, that is my contribution to that history and you know, I cannot, I will not know about it when I am dead, of what they say about whatever my legacy is, but you know, there is nothing I can do about it and I cannot worry about it. It is just, you know, you do what you do. It is all summed up by Popeye "I am where I am." So I um, and, you know, and in the long run, ultimately it doesn't matter, you know, there is only so much history people can absorb. And, and my personal history is nothing in comparison to global warming. And so I just try to keep my perspective.
2:52:02
SM: And so when you talk about your lasting legacy that is what you are saying then ̶
2:52:08
PK: That what?
2:52:09
SM: What do you hope your lasting legacy will be and what would you think the lasting legacy ̶
2:52:15
PK: Oh my lasting legacy, I want to be that whoever I inspired will inspire other people, so it continues on with the without me. You know, I have my goal was to communicate without compromise, which is what Lenny's was and most of the people I know, and I was fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to do that. And then so you know, if I can whenever something happens, I am always aware of, is something I can do about this or not something I could do about it? And if there is not something I can do about it then I go on to the next thing. And, you know, and it is a lot of decisions, whatever passes before your perception. You know, going to get involved and not get involved. And the older I get, the more of my priorities fall in place. And it is too late, you know, I would like to have the novel I am working on become a best seller, but if it doesn't, at this point, you know, as my wife once said "process his product" and so I am enjoying the process of it.
2:53:56
SM: That is what I am doing.
2:53:57
PK: I am pleased through that Simon and Schuster published the autobiography Confessions of a Raging Unconfined Nut, Misadventures in the Counterculture in 1993. And since then, I have expanded on it, and it is about to be published digitally. And so, you know, people will be able to get it on their iPads or whatever. So, so my legacy is, in my case, what I have written, and that can go on and, that is it, you know.
2:54:51
SM: And lastly, what do you think the legacy of this boomer generation will be? Again, if someone is born right after World War II, that was how they were defined. There were all these babies born after World War II.
2:55:05
PK: Well, they are realizing what a commodity they are. You know, there are, as you know, there are a demographic. And what I just read in today's local paper here is that this there are two, at least two senior centers that are taking the word 'senior' out of their title out of the title of the centers they run, because boomers do not like to think of themselves as senior citizens.
2:55:37
SM: Wow.
2:55:40
PK: You know, that is and so that goes to show that they are, you know, that they are worth, that they are worth something as, as consumers. And that is better than nothing at all.
2:56:11
SM: Yeah, and one of the things too, that you bring up in your book is the AARP or something, people that produced that movie on the History Channel about I think it was the hippies.
2:56:24
PK: Yeah.
2:56:25
SM: Yeah, that.
2:56:26
PK: But that had nothing to do with the AARP.
2:56:28
SM: No, did not have anything to do the AARP, but I am saying the history channel that they, it was almost like they, the attackers were more prominent than the people who experienced it or whatever. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
2:56:47
PK: Oh, just what my favorite color is.
2:56:50
SM: What is your favorite color?
2:56:52
PK: Orange.
2:56:53
SM: Ah, yeah, talking about colors, that flag! Whose idea was the flag for the yippies. Who came up with that design? Yeah, the marijuana plant. I do not have a right in front of me here. Oh yes, I do. Yeah, who came up with a design for the yippie flag? The red star with the marijuana the flag of the youth international party?
2:57:19
PK: You mean the calligraphy? Well, I do not remember off-hand who did come up with that, but, but that is the thing about it. A lot of people in in those days did things boundlessly and did not want credit for it. And in a certain sense, it did not matter. You know? I am going to change my name, to anonymous so that I can get credit for a lot of things that I did not write.
2:58:01
SM: Also, you know, you got Groucho. I guess he tried drugs for the first time? So that was an interesting experience. Would you consider Groucho a real (19)60s person?
2:58:14
PK: Oh, I just never, you know, I think that there is a quality that goes through civilization that there are people they question authority. And, and so I think of Groucho as having as a, as somebody who encouraged questioning authority by making them by his irreverence, and I just do not label him with a ̶
2:58:56
SM: Very good.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Paul Krassner
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Krassner, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors, American--20th century;Journalists; Comedians; Publishers; Realist (New York, N.Y.); Krassner, Paul--Interviews
Description
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Paul Krassner is an author, journalist, comedian, and the founder, editor, and publisher of the <em>Realist</em> magazine. One of the major figures of the 1960s counterculture scene, Krassner is a founding member of the Yippies and the member of Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters. He published several books including his autobiography <em>Confessions of a Raving, Unconfined Nut: Misadventures in Counter-Culture</em>. He studied Journalism at Baruch College.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-10
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.165b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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179:00
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5e528dafd9a426e19ef47dd8fff116c4.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Underhill
Date of Interview
2010-09-27
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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172:51
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Underhill is a journalist, writer and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States, and was schooled mainly in eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the Harvard Crimson. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the Southern Courier, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,6710886],"15":"Arial"}">David Underhill is a journalist, writer, and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States and was schooled mainly in the eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the <em>Harvard Crimson</em>. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the <em>Southern Courier</em>, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Harvard University; Student from Democratic Society(SDS); Todd Gitlin; Cuban Missile Crisis; Columbia University; Red Diaper Babies; Communist Manifesto; Baby boom generation; Activism"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Harvard University; Students for a Democratic Society (SDS); Todd Gitlin; Cuban Missile Crisis; Columbia University; Red Diaper Babies; Communist Manifesto; Baby boom generation; Activism</span>
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Authors, American--20th century; Political activists--United States; Underhill, David--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: David Underhill
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 27 September 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:04):
Testing, one, two. Well David, thank you very much. It has been a while getting ahold of you, and that is my fault. But I finally did, and first question I want to ask is, how did you become who you are? Talk a little about your early years, where you grew up, your high school, before you went off to, I guess Columbia. Maybe some of the role models, the people who inspired you. And what led you to Columbia?
DU (00:38):
Well, I was born in San Francisco.
SM (00:41):
Okay, speak up.
DU (00:42):
I was born in San Francisco. But [inaudible 00:46] at the time, I never really lived, I have no recollection of it. I grew up mostly in Boise, Idaho. [inaudible 01:00]. Graduated, went to college, not at Columbia, but at Harvard. Because somehow, I got the idea that Harvard was the place where they had taken most of the world's knowledge captive and were holding it in the library.
SM (01:23):
Oh, wow.
DU (01:23):
So, I wanted to go liberate it. To take possession of it, I wanted−
SM (01:29):
What years were those?
DU (01:34):
(19)50s, early (1960s. So, I went from teenager in a small town in Idaho, [inaudible 01:42] this idea, I do not know. But I did, from the earliest age that I can remember, that was what I wanted to do. Once I got over the idea that I wanted to go to [inaudible 01:57].
SM (01:59):
Speak up a little bit louder, too. Somehow, it is not coming through very good.
DU (02:03):
Once I recovered from the idea that I wanted to go to the state university nearby and be a football hero.
SM (02:09):
Mm-hmm?
DU (02:11):
Then I was determined, for some reason, to go to Harvard. That was what I did.
SM (02:16):
You must have done well in school.
DU (02:19):
I worked hard and found schoolwork congenial. So yes, I did. By the academic time and place, yes. And Harvard was a new and astonishing experience. I am glad I did it, and it launched me on the quest for the rest of my life. People used to ask me, "What do you do?" And my people answer was, "I read the newspaper." And that was what I did. Try to keep myself informed in the hopes of understanding why the world worked the way it is. But I had to stop saying that because nobody believed it. But it was true. I graduated from Harvard, I went off and did other things here and there, and then found myself back at Columbia for a while. But always [inaudible 03:31] earning a living. [inaudible 03:35] quest for understanding whatever I could find.
SM (03:43):
What was the gap between your years at Harvard and Columbia?
DU (03:50):
At Harvard I was on the editorial board of the student daily newspaper, Harvard Crimson it is called.
SM (03:59):
Mm- hmm.
DU (04:03):
And people at The Crimson mostly, and a few others, concocted the idea to start a newspaper. Give coverage to the then infant Civil Rights Movement. Which received almost no local coverage other than hostile.
SM (04:22):
Mm-hmm.
DU (04:29):
And just [inaudible 04:29] national coverage, [inaudible 04:32] Harvard Crimson and others. [inaudible 04:37]. Reported in Montgomery, Alabama, the Southern Courier.
SM (04:43):
David?
DU (04:43):
Yeah.
SM (04:46):
Speak up a little louder. Somehow it is cutting out. Keep getting-
DU (04:50):
Started a weekly newspaper called the Southern Courier. Reported in Montgomery to cover the civil rights. Not slavishly, but since then it was not a house organ, it was a regular newspaper, but its purpose was to give [inaudible 05:12] fair balanced coverage of the civil rights [inaudible 05:20]. The local press was not doing. And I went from connection with The Crimson Harvard to working on that weekly paper. Which brought me to Mobile, where I am now. I was the reporter and photographer and circulation manager and distributor and [inaudible 00:05:45] for that paper in Mobile. That was really by accident, needed somebody to go to this city and did not have anybody here. So, armed with a couple [inaudible 00:05:56] phone numbers I was sent off into the lower Alabama wilderness to create a Mobile outpost there.
SM (06:08):
What year was that?
DU (06:08):
That was in 1964, (19)65.
SM (06:09):
Wow. That was right in the heyday.
DU (06:14):
It was. There were demonstrations and deaths and marches and violence. Yes.
SM (06:19):
Did you ever fear, as a new writer down south, coming from the north, for your life?
DU (06:25):
Oh yes.
SM (06:27):
Explain that feeling.
DU (06:29):
Yes. It was not just a feeling. There was one time, you may remember James Meredith and his attempt to integrate the University of Mississippi. At one point was trying to march from the Mississippi border with Tennessee down to Jackson and got shot along the highway.
SM (06:48):
Yes, I remember that.
DU (06:49):
And that provoked the march to carry on from where he was shot to the rest of the way to Jackson. I went from Mobile over there to cover that for the paper, and I was a participant marching, newspaper reporter, when I got back here after being gone for several days some of the neighbors in the inner-city area where I lived, Mobile, came running up to me as soon as I drove up and told me what had happened in my absence. Which was that somebody with the rifle who did not belong in that neighborhood had been spotted on the roof of an old, abandoned building right across the street from my driveway. And they had called the law who came and looked up there and said, "We do not see nobody." And went away. And the neighbors kept insisting, the law came back. Finally, they made [inaudible 07:47] the fire department came with their ladders, and they climbed up there and brought down a guy with the rifle, just across the street.
SM (07:58):
And he was there to kill you?
DU (07:59):
Yes.
SM (08:00):
Unbelievable.
DU (08:00):
And put him in a police car and drove him away. And this is what the neighbors told me when I got back. So, I went to see the police chief the next day, who I had already known, as a reporter from other stories. Told him what had happened, and he looked puzzled that no such thing had ever happened that he had ever heard of. He would certainly know if that occurred. I said, well, if a man was put in a police car and taken away, that sounds like an arrest. Surely there would be a record of an arrest and that would be a public document, would not it? He did not think any such thing had happened.
SM (08:49):
Oh, so it was just like a lot of things in the south at that time.
DU (08:51):
Oh, yes.
SM (08:51):
They just let him go.
DU (08:53):
Or were implicated in it.
SM (08:55):
Oh, wow.
DU (08:58):
But I let him know I would pursue this. And either find out who that was and what they had done with him or reveal that the police department was somehow in cahoots. Somebody who was clearly on an assassination. So, then the police chief, he went away and came back a little while later with a scribbled note on the scrap paper with somebody's name and address saying, this was the man they took down from the roof and took away in a police car. [inaudible 09:32].
SM (09:34):
Was he a white man or a black man?
DU (09:36):
White man.
SM (09:39):
Unbelievable.
DU (09:40):
Well, I presume. I mean I just curiously drove by the address. Which was out in the new white suburban area.
SM (09:48):
Now, did you go back to Columbia after you were down south for a while working on the paper?
DU (09:53):
I did not go back to Columbia; I had never been at Columbia. But I was here working on the paper and having experiences like that for over a year. About a year and a half, then I went, just in time for the uproar of the (19)60s. (19)66 at Columbia, I was a graduate student then. And I got to know and lingered on the fringes of the campus, The Students for a Democratic Society. Some of those [inaudible 10:41]. I had been familiar with all of that from the start, because it began largely among friends of mine and roommates at Harvard, named Gitlin.
SM (10:56):
Oh, Todd Gitlin?
DU (10:57):
Yeah.
SM (10:57):
Oh yeah, he is one of those really top professors in America today in communications.
DU (11:02):
That is right, that is right. He is what, sociology journalism professor at Columbia now, last I-
SM (11:11):
Yes, he is. Mm-hmm.
DU (11:13):
He was a close friend of mine and a semi-roommate at Harvard. At the time he was one of the founders of SDS.
SM (11:25):
Golly. Huh.
DU (11:27):
And actually, there was one time during our [inaudible 11:29] when both of us had interned, we were roommates in Washington. So, I was−
SM (11:39):
Speak up again, David.
DU (11:41):
I was closely acquainted with all of those folks at the founding of SDS. One of the early (19)60s movement, and because of that I gravitated towards similar activities at Columbia. I probably should mention to you that Gitlin and I and a few others created an anti-war. Actually, it was an anti-bomb organization at Harvard called Tocsin.
SM (12:16):
T-O-S-I-N?
DU (12:20):
T-O-C-S-I-N.
SM (12:22):
Okay.
DU (12:28):
It is a French word. Their creation not mine, a French word for some kind of community warning bell, a tocsin. For some reason they thought that was appropriate. Anti-bomb organization that created on campus. And had some little protests against, like the Cuban Missile Crisis and the near obliteration−
SM (12:53):
Oh yes, (19)62.
DU (13:00):
So that fright, and at one point had some sort of poster art manifestation on the streets of DC in front of the White House, as I recall. But it was mostly a campus educational anti-nuclear organization.
SM (13:18):
Mm-hmm, now you were- [inaudible 13:24].
DU (13:28):
That then led to anti-war. The Vietnam war was just beginning then to escalate the American participation in it.
SM (13:36):
Mm-hmm.
DU (13:38):
[inaudible 13:38] but to my knowledge some new people in this Tocsin organization arranged the first anti-Vietnam war demonstration in America. Which was in Cambridge, it would have been spring of (19)64. There were about 10 or a dozen people that came to a meeting the night before. Something had just happened in Vietnam that revealed to the public [inaudible 14:08].
SM (14:07):
Was that the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?
DU (14:13):
This was slightly before that.
SM (14:15):
Okay.
DU (14:16):
Something had happened that revealed burgeoning American entanglement in the [inaudible 14:25]. And about 10 or a dozen of us had a meeting to try to decide what to do. We decided we were going to have a little demonstration and pass out leaflets in Harvard Square the next day. It was one of my formative experiences. Because when I got there with the leaflets to pass out, instead of a dozen of us there was three of us conducting this anti-war demonstration. We did what we said we were going to do, and we were truly cursed at and spat at, and became a kind of urban myth later the returning solders were spit on, and questionable whether that actually happened. We were really cursed and spat at in Harvard Square.
SM (15:14):
By students?
DU (15:14):
Students, people coming in, citizens, people coming in and out of subway stations. Just everybody [inaudible 15:20] the response was of viciously hostile. Because we were openly opposing American policy [inaudible 15:32] commie enemy.
SM (15:34):
Wow.
DU (15:36):
To my knowledge that was the first demonstration in specific against the war in Vietnam.
SM (15:39):
Was that your very first experience ever, even as a high school student of standing up for something that you thought was unjust?
DU (15:58):
Oh no. That was the first time I went out and exposed in a public place and encounter an openly hostile reaction. Which was [inaudible 16:20] foretaste for what was to come.
SM (16:22):
Oh yeah.
DU (16:25):
Later in Alabama and later than that at Columbia. But that grew directly out of that Tocsin [inaudible 16:35] with Gitlin and those folk. [inaudible 16:44] but I did a few-
SM (16:45):
Keep that voice up, David.
DU (16:47):
I did a few things like that in high school. Actually, to my knowledge I am the only person who ever defeated Fidel Castro in an election.
SM (17:04):
Oh? Explain that. Because that we are talking (19)61ish, or−
DU (17:04):
Yeah, (19)59, (19)60, thereabouts. I was running for student body president of my high school. And nobody chose to run against me. But to keep the election from being a bore we decided to run Fidel Castro against me. And we got a− Hello?
SM (17:33):
Yeah, I am here. I am hearing it.
DU (17:36):
We somehow got some old− I am hearing an echo. What is that coming from?
SM (17:42):
I do not know, I do not have an echo here, but−
DU (17:44):
All right, then I will just keep talking.
SM (17:45):
Yeah.
DU (17:46):
Strange echo. So, we got some old army looking uniforms, some arrayed rifles from the ROTC unit that came trooping into the high school like Castro's revolutionaries campaigning for him to be student body president.
SM (18:07):
I hope you won−
DU (18:10):
It was close. But I won.
SM (18:13):
I hate to think what would have happened if he had won.
DU (18:20):
We unfurled Castro banners in the school auditorium during the election assembly and all sorts of stuff like that.
SM (18:27):
Well, how did the principal respond?
DU (18:31):
Well, we did not clear it with the principal in advance, of course. We just− But who knows what would prompt somebody to do something like that? But I did. And then I had a lot of help. But it was pretty much my project to run Fidel Castro against me.
SM (18:57):
Any other experiences in high school where you had to stand up for an issue?
DU (19:03):
There was a time at church where I decided, for whatever reason, that I was going to go around to all the other churches in town, including there was one synagogue in town, and there was one Buddhist church, because of the leftover Japanese when they [inaudible 19:32] from the West Coast, was still there. So, there was a Buddhist church in town, and there were Mormons and there were Catholics. So, I decided I would go around on my own ecumenical mission and visit each one of these congregations to teach myself what the other religions were about. And in the course of that− Also, there was a particular cute girl who I thought [inaudible 19:59] explorations to. And I thought she might be willing to go along. I think [inaudible 20:09]. And she did [inaudible 20:13]. But I got in, this was considered sort of cute. Maybe even appropriately educational, and I was not discouraged doing so by my own church or school or family until I went to a service at one black church that was in town and got to know some of the people there and decided, who knows why, that it would be a good idea to have a joint meeting between their high school Sunday school class and ours. And then the− you know what hit the fan.
SM (21:10):
Yeah, now, what was your church?
DU (21:12):
The Presbyterian church.
SM (21:13):
Okay.
DU (21:14):
[inaudible 21:14] and all my other strayings and inquiries were tolerated, but that one was not. And I will never forget, the preacher of the one black church, I do not even remember what denomination it was, I might not even have been aware of the denomination at the time, eventually made an embarrassing and regretful phone call to me regretting that he and his Sunday school class would not be able to come to the joint meeting with ours. I do not know what kind of pressure was put on him through what route, but these folks originally were receptive and willing and suddenly did not want to do it. And that never happened.
SM (22:14):
Wow. And no one ever told you to not pursue it?
DU (22:21):
I mean I knew from the reactions that I was not supposed to pursue it. And I mean I was inclined to, but I knew from what my preacher had told me that the pursuit would be fruitless because they were not coming.
SM (22:37):
Mm-hmm. Wow. Going back to that experience in Harvard Square where you said about 12 of you, was Todd Gitlin one of them too?
DU (22:50):
No, I think he was already graduated [inaudible 22:52].
SM (22:54):
But your standathon, was that a onetime experience or did you keep going to Harvard Square? I have been up there twice this summer, so I know that area very well and−
DU (23:05):
It was a onetime experience going there to hand out leaflets to try to talk to people about the war that was brewing that America was getting entangled in. That was a onetime experience.
SM (23:14):
Mm-hmm.
DU (23:17):
The meeting that evening before to arrange this with about 10 or dozen people present, that was a onetime experience.
SM (23:23):
Right.
DU (23:24):
But there had been many such meetings of related issues, I think throughout, of that anti-war, anti-nuclear bomb organization. That was the connection. But the leafletting of Vietnam in Harvard Square, [inaudible 23:46] but we were deliberately trying to [inaudible 23:54].
SM (23:54):
What was the−
DU (23:54):
That was a onetime experience.
SM (23:54):
What was the town you grew up, where your high school was?
DU (23:56):
Boise.
SM (23:57):
What?
DU (23:58):
Boise.
SM (23:58):
Oh, Boise, Idaho.
DU (23:59):
Yeah.
SM (24:00):
Okay. And were you at Columbia in (19)69 when Mark Rudd and all those students took over?
DU (24:06):
Oh yeah, I was right in the thick of all of that.
SM (24:10):
Yeah.
DU (24:11):
[inaudible 24:11]. Yes.
SM (24:14):
That is one of the top five protests of the entire (19)60s. Of course, Kent State maybe believe is number one. But what was it about that experience? What did you learn from that experience, and what did the university learn from it?
DU (24:28):
Well−
SM (24:29):
And speak up.
DU (24:45):
Oh lord. I mean I learned that even when you have what looked like a mass movement behind you it was almost impossible to make any headway against an entrenched system.
SM (25:03):
Mm-hmm.
DU (25:06):
When we shut down−
SM (25:07):
Are you getting another call?
DU (25:10):
I am trying to make it go away. We shut down the university. You know all of this.
SM (25:18):
Yeah, I know it all, people who are going to be reading this though are going to hear this firsthand from the participants.
DU (25:27):
And we raised questions that had to be addressed about the university's cohabitation with the imperial war security state. And people were paying attention, willing to listen and address issues. They shut down the school. Tried to alter that cohabitation. And in the end, we did not. Columbia reverted, along with the rest of the academic establishments to the same old ways. It is sobering and sometimes if you think about it, discouraging. Almost every day it occurs to me that despite all we did at that time, and everything that we pointed out, which the events proved true, still look at the news today and the same kind of thing is happening.
SM (00:26:47):
Yes.
DU (26:50):
On the opposite side of the road, as if we had done nothing.
SM (26:54):
You raise a great point, David. I have been saying the same thing for years, that when they try to look at the free speech movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, I love the way the media tries to portray it as an isolated incident in the early (19)60s somewhat separate from the anti-war movement in the later (19)60s. When it was all about Mario Savio and the students had had enough with the university and the fact that they felt, as students, that they wanted a university of ideas, not a university that was run by a corporate takeover, and corporate interests.
DU (27:31):
Yes.
SM (27:31):
And that was what it was all about, and Clark Kerr talked about the knowledge factory that the students were upset with, being just− You are right, and that was happening at Columbia too. And what we are seeing today, it is the same thing again.
DU (27:52):
And those urges, and those organized uprisings reinforced each other. The people from the campus began the Vietnam protests overlap a lot with those who showed up as activists in the Civil Rights Movement. Which then overlap a lot, began with, those who enlarged the anti-war movement to the point where it finally made that war stop. So, it did not make the imperial impulse stop, but it makes that particular manifestation stop. All of those things reinforced each other, created a condition of concern and recognized mutual [inaudible 28:57] over from one effort to another. That [inaudible 29:02] it feels even more lonely and futile to try to mount some kind of public awareness campaign and resistance now than it did then. Because you do not have that [inaudible 29:24] of others of similar motive, dedication, around you everywhere, like we did then.
SM (29:33):
Yeah, it also inspired all the other movements, the Women's Movement, and the Gay and Lesbian Movement, and the Environmental Movement, and the Native American Movement, Chicano Movement, they were all linked together in different ways.
DU (29:52):
I am glad you brought the American−
SM (29:54):
And please speak up again.
DU (29:55):
I am glad you mentioned the Native American, because early in, it came to be called, the uprising at Columbia, there was a steering committee, include Rudd and me and some of the folks who later blew themselves up in that [inaudible 30:20] townhouse.
SM (30:22):
Oh yeah.
DU (30:23):
[inaudible 30:23] those.
SM (30:23):
Mm-hmm.
DU (30:25):
We were all together on a steering committee, and in those steering committee meetings I brought up the Indian question. They were not called Native Americans then. Because [inaudible 30:37] the simmerings of what came, the Rosebud Sioux Rebellion and some others. And I wanted to make an explicit linkage with those folks and make common cause with them. Which was I believe the first incredulous mockery by Rudd and those folks, they thought it sounded like something that was in a Wild West movie?
SM (31:08):
Right?
DU (31:08):
They later came to recognize the importance, but it was a lonely issue to raise at first. But again, to my knowledge, the discussion about that at the Columbia steering committee− did not want to call it the [inaudible 31:31] committee, that sounds too Red Commie. But the discussions about that issue were, to my knowledge, first of an attempt to link those struggles, and it is commonplace now. But the beginnings of it were instances like that.
SM (31:51):
Right.
DU (31:55):
One other little vignette to illustrate [inaudible 31:59]. At Harvard when I was there was also Henry Kissinger. And he was not yet− You could tell he was on his way to being unofficially, he was [inaudible 32:21] under Secretary of State Rockefeller then, touring the world on their behalf. And he would disappear from class for spreads of time and then reappear having been to India or wherever else, pursuing what [inaudible 32:38]. But he was saying it even then that [inaudible 32:41]. At one point sociologist David Riesman wrote [inaudible 32:49].
SM (32:48):
The Lonely Crowd.
DU (32:52):
Yes, Riesman arranged, I do not know why, he arranged a small dinner meeting with Kissinger. Kissinger was just returning from one of these ventures to Vietnam. And Riesman was dubious indeed about the burgeoning war in Vietnam. But Kissinger was a personal friend and college of his, did not want to be too cross with him. But Riesman knew that I did not give a damn about the thing. And that I had deep doubts about all of this. So, he seated me next to Kissinger at this little dinner party. And I got into a conversation with Kissinger, [inaudible 33:40] what he had disclosed [inaudible 33:43].
SM (33:51):
I did not know Henry was in the room with you.
DU (33:52):
[inaudible 33:52]. And I, being a young [inaudible 34:05] I did not give a damn, I just told Kissinger.
SM (34:08):
Speak up again, David, please.
DU (34:10):
I told Kissinger he was wrong and said that if he and the others he was in league with continue the way that they were going that they would, in drawing checks from the bank of American political credit and military strength until they had broken the bank and would discover that they had lost [inaudible 34:40]. And Kissinger got pissed at me for not deferring to his superior knowledge. And he said [inaudible 34:51] turned his back on me, and refused−
(Part 1 OF 5 Ends) [35:04]
DU (35:03):
− turned his back on me and refused to speak to me anymore.
SM (35:05):
Oh my gosh.
DU (35:07):
And [inaudible 35:08].
SM (35:14):
You succeeded.
DU (35:18):
[inaudible 35:18]. And then several years later when Kissinger was Secretary of State and I had been in a demonstration in DC. Actually, I think it was the time of Nixon's second Inauguration. That would have been−
SM (35:42):
(19)72.
DU (35:42):
Well, he was reelected, this would have been in January of (19)73.
SM (35:44):
Mm-hmm.
DU (35:48):
And we were in a big crowd, freezing on the street in front of the justice department in January of (19)73. And then the police decided they were going to go home, and it was cold, and they were tired. So, they charged, tear gas out of the mounted police on horses and motorcycles [inaudible 36:06] and broke up the crowd and chased us through the streets of DC. I remember thinking, 1973, this is the beginning of the 10th year since (19)64 at Harvard Square where there first had been a demonstration against the war. This is (19)73.
SM (36:33):
Wow.
DU (36:34):
I was thinking, this is the beginning of the 10th year since I first came out in this war. And it is still going on and here I am chased down the street, running from the cops throwing tear gas on this cold January night and going past the state department building. And up on the top floor I could see the light, figures of the silhouette behind the glass up, where I figured that must be the Secretary of State up there. That must be Henry looking down on me running through the streets getting chased by the cops and the tear gas [inaudible 37:14].
SM (37:11):
Wow.
DU (37:15):
After all those years ago at that dinner party Riesman set up in Cambridge where events showed I was right. Henry was wrong. But I was down on the streets running from the cops and he was the Secretary of State.
SM (37:36):
It is a great story.
DU (37:37):
Yeah.
SM (37:39):
One of the questions I ask everyone too, when you were either in high school, senior high school, or college, what books were important to you? You were probably a very big reader. Say any time in the (19)60s or early (19)70s what books really influenced you? By anyone.
DU (38:11):
Well, the autobiography of Big Bill Haywood did.
SM (38:21):
Mm-hmm?
DU (38:25):
Because he had been tried for murder for blowing up the governor in Idaho, not convicted. [inaudible 38:31] was one of the most famous cases.
SM (38:37):
Mm-hmm.
DU (38:38):
Maybe I am telling you what you already know. And then it happened in the town where I grew up. I knew nothing of it, there were two people in my [inaudible 38:53] included the participation in the organizing activities of the Wobblie. So, they were the IWW [inaudible 39:06], they knew about Haywood, and his trial. Heard about [inaudible 39:11] finding Haywood's autobiography and reading it. And that made a big impression on me. Because [inaudible 39:29] life and a way of doing [inaudible 39:35] different from anything I was told.
SM (39:38):
What did he do?
DU (39:40):
He was a minor-
SM (39:43):
Mm-hmm.
DU (39:50):
[inaudible 39:50].
SM (39:50):
I hate to say it, but please speak up.
DU (39:50):
One of the early organizers of the IWW.
SM (39:51):
Mm-hmm.
DU (39:52):
The Wobblies.
SM (39:54):
Yep.
DU (39:55):
That came mostly out of the lumber camps of out west. Idaho, Nevada, Utah. Joe Hill, those folks came from that area. And Haywood was [inaudible 40:09] by his trial [inaudible 40:13] governor was in Boise.
SM (40:15):
Mm-hmm.
DU (40:17):
So, from looking at Haywood's autobiography I got a glimpse of this way of positioning yourself in the world very different, anodized, standard, acceptable history that I got. That made an impression.
DU (40:35):
Also, the Diary's of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Edited by a historian named Bernard DeVoto. Which made you, again, realize that everything you have been taught about pioneers struggling across the wilderness and populating this empty territory was an elaborate self-serving lie. And [inaudible 41:16] colonial theft of that [inaudible 41:19] from people who had inhabited it for millennia.
SM (41:26):
Native Americans.
DU (41:27):
Yeah.
SM (41:27):
Yeah.
DU (41:28):
All of that [inaudible 41:29] standard history, and to the extent that most folk just all they were [inaudible 41:36].
SM (41:36):
What was the author's name again?
DU (41:39):
DeVoto. D-E-V-O-T-O.
SM (41:41):
First name?
DU (41:42):
Bernard.
SM (41:42):
Bernard DeVoto. Okay.
DU (41:45):
Historian of the era, but was editor of the journals of Lewis and Clark.
SM (41:57):
You honestly were born probably just prior to; the Boomers are classified as (19)46 to (19)64.
DU (42:05):
Yes, [inaudible 42:05] (19)64.
SM (42:07):
But we do not go with these guidelines here, and I have learned that by interviewing people. But when you look at the era that Boomers have been alive from 1946 to right now, 2010 and hopefully they will be alive 20 plus more years as they all approach senior citizen, although they hate that term. In your own words as a person who grew up in the (19)50s and then experienced all these things in the (19)60s and (19)70s and have been an activist through the (19)80s, (19)90s and the first 10 years of this century, how, in your own words, just a few words, how would you describe that period 1946 to 1960? In your own words. And again, please speak up.
DU (42:56):
For me that was a time of trying to learn the nature of the world beyond and contrary to the picture that was automatically presented to me. That is, it.
SM (43:16):
And what was the−
DU (43:16):
And I set out to learn what had been omitted or obscured or warped. And it was from a few things like I decided that I got a keyhole glimpse of something great big different on the other side that made me want to push through that crack and find out what was on the other side. That was what those years were about.
SM (43:40):
How about the years 19−
DU (43:41):
Trying to overcome the indoctrination that I suppose any society attempted to perform upon its youth to make them fit, carry on the legacy handed to them. And for me it did not sit very comfortably. So, I- [inaudible 44:03] out on my own.
SM (44:04):
How about that period (19)61 to 1970?
DU (44:07):
That was an uproar. Agitation, uncertainty, and there were many moments where you were not sure that you would be alive the next moment. Either because somebody with a rifle was on the roof across the street when you go into your driveway, or because some fool with his finger on a big red button was willing to summon Armageddon upon the entire Earth in order to make a macho point to his counterpart on the other side of the world. That is what the Cuban Missile Crisis [inaudible 44:51].
SM (44:53):
How about 1971 to 1980?
DU (44:59):
Oh, what happened? Was there such a period?
SM (45:05):
I know there was disco in the second half−
DU (45:10):
To me, I know all of that was going on kind of as the downhill slope died of the (19)60s for the society at large, but for me it did not differ much from the time before. After I escaped Columbia, my education and formal progress were to be very badly spent by all of the uproar and uprisings at Columbia. I finally escaped from there with some kind of graduate degree but came back to Alabama and worked on a prison reform and community organizing project in the (19)70s. And then I was out in Washington state for a while, parts of my family were out there, and I got involved in some organized [inaudible 46:11] against a nuclear power plant financing boondoggle. I do not know if you are aware of that at all.
SM (46:20):
No.
DU (46:21):
It is called the Washington Public Power Supply. Formerly known as WOOPS. That sold multiple billions of dollars’ worth of bonds to unwary local community public utility districts and the like to finance this big, actually unnecessary and badly conceived nuclear power plant that almost [inaudible 46:49] but wasted billions of dollars of money [inaudible 46:52] never generated. But the bonds are still outstanding, all these hopeless public utility [inaudible 46:58] you have got to pay off the bonds, even though you have got no power coming. If you Google [inaudible 47:08].
SM (47:08):
Right?
DU (47:08):
−spell that. [inaudible 47:11] there was a big uprising across the region, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, parts of Canada and Nevada against paying off these bonds for a derelict power plant that did not exist. I got very much involved in that, mostly around the city of, somewhere called Ellensburg, Washington state. Right between Seattle and Spokane. And there was a general public uprising against the bond boondoggle that I was in the thick of. I did that in the (19)70s.
SM (48:01):
How about the 1981 to 1990?
DU (48:04):
Well, in the mid (19)80s I came back to Alabama. I never [inaudible 48:08] got away from Alabama. And I had helped to create a new local community newspaper here in Mobile called the Harbinger. H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R. [inaudible 48:29] on the web if you care to look. [inaudible 48:38] from that I got working at a radio station. Because it was to do an audio version of this newspaper that was put on the radio. And I became acquainted with the button and [inaudible 48:53] pushing aspect of running a radio station. And spent around there for a while. Well, I needed a job, for one thing. I did a lot more for them than the value of what they paid me. So, it was a good arrangement for them. I infiltrated enough eventually I found myself as the host of an AM radio talk show in Mobile, Alabama. An unlikely outcome, but there I was. And it turned out, as I suspected it would, the sort of angle I wanted to approach local and world events from did have an interested audience within a place like this, reputedly derivative and backwards. But there was lots of [inaudible 49:43] jumping on the radio, like what I was offering. If you, by your own approach, gave them permission to hold and express such ideas then they would. And use of what contacts I could [inaudible 50:03] to try to get the prominent people from a national level on the radio here. Like I had Ralph Nader on for a while. He was scheduled to be there [inaudible 50:21] and stayed almost the whole hour and at the end when he finally tore himself away, he said, and he was not the only one who ever said this to me too, he said, "That is a really educated and an informed audience you have got." I guess he had not expected it. But that was the sort of audience you could attract.
SM (50:43):
Mm-hmm.
DU (50:43):
That gave me a chance to say, "Well, yes, of course. What did you expect? This is lower Alabama."
SM (50:50):
Did the Reagan era, what is your comments on that whole Reagan era?
DU (50:54):
Oh lord.
SM (50:56):
In a few words, you do not have to go in- Because a lot of people, when you think of the (19)80s, that is the (19)80s.
DU (51:04):
It was like just treading water, so you did not drown. That is all.
SM (51:12):
Mm-hmm. How about that period, (19)91 to 2000? Were you still with your radio station? That was the era of Clinton and President Bush one.
DU (51:17):
I mean that was mainly the time that I was at the radio station, in the (19)90s.
SM (51:22):
Mm-hmm.
DU (51:25):
And oh, then I got in some trouble with the people whose interest [inaudible 51:32] I had recruited, because they were all pro-Clinton and I was pissed at Clinton making such a mess of his presidency, and for actually for not minding the door, that was the way I put it. He was fooling around with Monica when he should have been minding his door.
SM (51:50):
Right?
DU (51:52):
Very unhappy with Clinton for that. And so, the Clintonites were unhappy with me. But I kept that outlook anyway. Then, when W and his [inaudible 52:09] came along I could honestly say that it was not partisanship pose what he was doing. And people had to believe it was not partisanship, [inaudible 52:23] but that brought the end of my radio career. [inaudible 52:30].
SM (52:31):
Because the people were upset with your- [inaudible 52:33].
DU (52:34):
End of the Iraq war if you were not pro-war and if you were not pro-Israel, you could not stay on the radio. It was just [inaudible 52:44].
SM (52:44):
Wow.
DU (52:48):
And after years of running this talk show and doing much of the button and paper pushing to keep this AM station going, I was just merrily fired by the owner, who was very pro-Bush, pro-war, and pro-Zionist.
SM (53:07):
Wow.
DU (53:09):
Also, it did not help that I had broadcast back to Mobile from Radio Havana. Do you want to hear that story?
SM (53:19):
Yeah, I know you ran against Castro in (19)61, but I did not know you tried to go see him. Yeah. Go ahead and tell that story before we go on to another question.
DU (53:33):
Yeah, courtesy of a couple of quirky people, Mobile is officially the sister city of Havana. You know about the Sister City Organization, correct?
SM (53:46):
Yes, I do.
DU (53:49):
Mobile and Havana are officially sister cities and have been for many years. And one guys [inaudible 53:54] went to Havana or made arrangements [inaudible 53:59] go there and started poking around. And he was finding the long historical connection was true [inaudible 54:06] and Havana. But had to [inaudible 54:10] waterfront of both cities. For that reason and others, he said, "These ought to be sister cities." And he made it happen. So, there is a Mobile and Havana Sister City organization that has sponsored several trips back and forth between delegates from here and Cubans come to Mobile. Under W of the restrictions [inaudible 54:34] was almost bumped. In the late (19)90s under Clinton it was a little easier to travel and did that. There was no commercial flights or boats. You had to charter your own boat. Basically, did a little [inaudible 54:49] out in the ocean, Key West, bouncing along the ocean. [inaudible 54:53]. I went to Havana, about a dozen of us from Mobile. And at one point I decided that I was going to go to Radio Havana and try to make a connection there to broadcast back to the radio station in Mobile, and just do my radio talk show. So, I was lucky enough to meet the right couple of people and got into Radio Havana and arranged to use their studio and telephone link back and got the local people in their studio. And, had somebody running with a microphone and a switchback in Mobile and did my talk show while I was sitting in Havana at the headquarters of Radio Havana. And people in Mobile can call up and talk to me and these Cuban Commie folks I had in the studio. It was wonderful. And when I got back here after that the owner, I thought that I had done a remarkable thing. The owner was not happy that I had used his equipment to cover boy Commie Castro on the air to print propaganda [inaudible 56:16].
SM (56:17):
Did President Bush make comments to him on this?
DU (56:21):
I do not know.
SM (56:22):
No? You do not know?
DU (56:22):
−how far the−
SM (56:26):
That is quite a story too. How important were The Beats? Did you read The Beats, and how important were they in your eyes in their writings about the influence they had on the Boomer generation?
DU (56:38):
Not very for me.
SM (56:39):
Right.
DU (56:39):
And I was aware of all of that, of course.
SM (56:43):
Many kinds of people believe they were the first nonconformists, and they were, and they did not care what people thought, and they were unique and different. But you do not think they were that important?
DU (56:51):
I was aware of that and influenced by it, sure. But it was not formative for me, I do not think.
SM (58:01):
Right. I guess I think I asked this next question− I have got so many questions here−
DU (58:06):
[inaudible 58:06] directly pertinent to add. I was at a meeting with all these Mark Rudd type on the campus of Columbia once and those folks, they got involved in a lot of intricate sectarian disputes with each other that derived from their personal and family connections and all sorts of [inaudible 58:29] dating back to the (19)30s and before.
SM (58:32):
Mm-hmm?
DU (58:34):
But I suppose you are aware of.
SM (58:35):
Yes, I am.
DU (58:36):
That I had no personal connection with and knew about only from reading his [inaudible 58:41]. But somebody in one of those meetings, when one of those cantankerous discussions were going on said casually and matter of factly, "We are all red diaper babies at this meeting. And that is why we are having fusses like this." And I looked at the one person who was in there with me that I knew was not a red diaper baby. Actually, she is the one who is name I gave you by email.
SM (58:06):
Oh yeah, I think I will contact her too.
DU (58:10):
Yeah, yeah. I looked at her and she looked at me, because we knew we were not red diaper. But to everybody else in there that was the norm.
SM (58:23):
Yeah- [inaudible 58:24].
DU (58:24):
−I was a misfit [inaudible 58:27] always was a misfit. [inaudible 58:32] I know that much of formative motivation came from his church.
SM (58:45):
Mm-hmm?
DU (58:47):
That more than [inaudible 58:54] posturing of the (19)40s from these sectarian groups [inaudible 59:02]. I also should have mentioned, when I was just trying to explore how the world- [inaudible 59:11].
SM (59:11):
Speak up again too, David.
DU (59:12):
−trying to find out how the world worked. And one of the things that experience told me were formative. And one of those was the Communist Manifesto. So, I started going into the public library in this little town in Idaho looking for materials, and I got educated.
SM (59:29):
Mm- hmm.
DU (59:32):
And at one point somebody, I do not know who, decided that this was bad for me and that I was no longer going to be able to check out material from the public library.
SM (59:42):
Unbelievable.
DU (59:44):
And so, when I tried to take back books, I was told no, and I had to go get something more normal and correct. I was not allowed to take back materials out of the library. So, I had to, of course, recruit friends to go in and get them for me. It just did not stop me. But there was an attempt to prevent me from those things.
SM (01:00:08):
Yeah, that is 1950s in America. Hold on one second here. You have got to bear with me in something, I have got to turn this light over here. [inaudible 01:00:15] all right.
DU (01:00:15):
But that [inaudible 01:00:25].
SM (01:00:29):
Okay. You already talked about your experiences of standing up for that first time, several times, for an issue. And of course, whenever a person stands up for something they become vulnerable. That is why a lot of people are afraid to do it. As a follow-up to that question were there many times that this happened in the (19)70s, (19)80s, and (19)90s, and beyond, I think you have already mentioned it, you have already talked about that somewhat, your activism overall has been continuous and ongoing.
DU (01:01:03):
Yes.
SM (01:01:04):
Yeah. And in describing your career after 1970 how would you describe the David before 1970 and the David after?
DU (01:01:19):
The same character.
SM (01:01:19):
Mm-hmm?
DU (01:01:22):
The (19)70s were not a dividing line for me. Why would you pick that date?
SM (01:01:28):
Well, because I figured you were at Columbia in the (19)60s and you got your graduate degree and then once you get your degree people sometimes look at college as the protective years whereas the real world happens once you leave college.
DU (01:01:46):
No.
SM (01:01:49):
Is Mobile, Alabama-
DU (01:01:50):
I went back to doing much the same thing I had done before college and before graduate school, back in Mobile. [inaudible 01:01:59] this prison reform project.
SM (01:02:00):
You have been pretty consistent from the get-go.
DU (01:02:05):
For whatever reason, yes, it has been the main contour of my life.
SM (01:02:11):
In your own words define activism.
DU (01:02:25):
It is the refusal to accept−
SM (01:02:28):
And please speak up.
DU (01:02:31):
It is the refusal to accept the path that is laid out before you.
SM (01:02:34):
Mm-hmm.
DU (01:02:36):
That is, it.
SM (01:02:38):
One of the interesting things is how I got to know you first off is that essay that was in Marvin Serkan and Allan Wolf's book in 1970. I was a political science major, and I actually got that book in 1970 in my senior year, and I read it right before I graduated. It was coming out the summer and I got an advance copy through one of the professors. How did you essay end up in that book edited by these two great scholars? And what was the main thesis for your article?
DU (01:03:17):
You might be able to tell me better than that. I have not looked at that or thought about that in decades.
SM (01:03:20):
Oh, okay. So, you do not remember what the article was about?
DU (01:03:26):
If you still have the book the book it was the end of political science and how political science does or does not- [inaudible 01:03:33] the issues that it needs to address.
SM (01:03:38):
Yeah, well I read your article a long− Well, I re-read it. I read it a long time ago and then I re-read it for the interviews. So, I did not know if you had a purpose for writing it. I know you mentioned in the article some experiences at Columbia. How did you ever get in that book?
DU (01:04:04):
Well now that you asked me, I am trying to remember, and I do not. I knew those guys, and where I came across them or how I crossed paths with them I do not specifically recall. And they asked me to produce something for their book, so I did. But beyond that I have no specific recollection of how it came about.
SM (01:04:41):
Well, what I am going to have to do-
DU (01:04:42):
They approached me. I did not approach them.
SM (01:04:48):
Okay. I have not seen a lot of writing since you were in college. Explain your writing, and or teach it− Have you ever taught? Been a teacher at any community college or school?
DU (01:05:05):
Well, I was a teaching assistant in some classes at Columbia as a grad student. And I had a couple of brief teaching assignments at Long Island University in Brooklyn, one at Fordham in New York.
SM (01:05:32):
Oh yeah.
DU (01:05:33):
And one at William Patterson [inaudible 01:05:37] in New Jersey.
SM (01:05:40):
Oh yes, Mm-hmm.
DU (01:05:40):
I taught at all three of those places during or after the time that I was at Columbia. Those were the strange years when my contract was not renewed at William Patterson there was some sort of uprising on the campus. And [inaudible 01:06:05] student strike and marches and demonstrations and all. I do not know [inaudible 01:06:12].
SM (01:06:14):
Well, they protested because you were not reinstated.
DU (01:06:17):
Yes, yes.
SM (01:06:18):
Oh, my golly. Do you think it was politically done?
DU (01:06:24):
Yes.
SM (01:06:27):
And why do you think they did that?
DU (01:06:32):
Well, I did not recite the party line.
SM (01:06:42):
Oh, and so that was it? It just did not become part of the in crowd, so to speak.
DU (01:06:51):
No, I did not.
SM (01:06:51):
And yet you were a very good teacher?
DU (01:06:57):
Well, opinions differ about that amongst students, as they are wont to do. But enough thought that I was. And enough they made a terrible fuss on the campus over that. But those were the years when any good cause would bring out a crowd on a campus. Late (19)60s, early (19)70s.
SM (01:07:21):
Right.
DU (01:07:24):
But it was pretty much a state university, a commuter college, largely blue-collar working class, Italian boys and the Mark Rudd and those folks, the downtown people that I dealt with said it was impossible to [inaudible 01:07:52] any kind of student rising on a campus like that, because those folks were the redneck regressives.
SM (01:08:01):
Oh. Or Richard Nixon's silent majority.
DU (01:08:06):
Yes. Yes, yes.
SM (01:08:06):
Yes.
DU (01:08:07):
And so, the downtown folks were astonished at what kind of uprising occurred on that campus. I was not. I expected it. I did not have any doubt.
SM (01:08:22):
What did you teach?
DU (01:08:23):
Political science.
SM (01:08:27):
Were they upset with the way you taught it? You encouraged students to protest, or−
DU (01:08:33):
All of the above.
SM (01:08:35):
It is interesting, David, in my junior year as a student at Binghamton my sociology professor got fired because he led a protest in downtown Binghamton next to the John Dickinson statue. I will never forget it. He was not asked to be back the next year.
DU (01:08:53):
Yes, this was that kind of thing.
SM (01:08:56):
Yeah, and then when I was in high school in the mid (19)60s a teacher was summarily fired because they called him a Communist.
DU (01:09:07):
Yes.
SM (01:09:07):
And that was a high school.
DU (01:09:12):
Yes. This was that sort of thing.
SM (01:09:14):
Yeah. When you think of the Boomer generation and the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
DU (01:09:31):
There is too many [inaudible 01:09:35].
SM (01:09:33):
And speak up, please.
DU (01:09:33):
Well, there is no first thing. There is a wealth of things that come to mind.
SM (01:09:43):
Just give me some examples.
DU (01:09:44):
If was a frightened and fruitful disorder.
SM (01:09:55):
Mm-hmm?
DU (01:09:57):
And there was a kind of careless bravery.
PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [01:10:04]
DU (01:10:03):
There was a kind of careless bravery among people who thought what they thought were great wrongs that needed to be righted and maybe could not, but you had tried anyway. And so, they did. And often the effort came to nothing and sometimes great to grief. Still, there was a kind of careless bravery that people were willing to proceed anyway.
SM (01:10:42):
When you look at those (19)50s, the period when you were in Boise, I have always felt as a person who grew up in Cortland, New York in the (19)50s, that there were three qualities that most young people had until they went to junior high school and maybe went to senior high school in the mid (19)60s. And that is that they were weird to be very quiet. They were very naive. As someone said, "Well, are not all young people naive?" But I think they were especially naive. And there was a fear. The fear that many of them had was because in the early years, if they were young, they saw this man screaming on TV saying, "Are you, or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?" And subconsciously affecting people saying that, "I better not speak up, because if I speak up, I could be called a communist or afraid," and of course, living in the nuclear age and the threat of the bomb. And of course, television was very, basically I hardly ever saw a person of color. And Cowboys and Indians were a big thing. I mean, everything was hunky Dory. There were some serious shows like Edward R. Murrow and Dave Garroway, and Mike Wallace, but they were few and far between. And then naive is the TV helped the naivete. Just your thoughts, whether you think those are three characteristics that really− You agree?
DU (01:12:22):
Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, when I said careless bravery, that described the reaction to this fear. When you realized that instilled fear was preventing you from exploring the world you inhabited, then careless bravery would give you the courage to do so. Without that, you would succumb to the fear and accept the [inaudible 01:12:59] that had been prepared for you.
SM (01:13:03):
Yeah. Because we were talking about some of these books that were written in the (19)50s, The End of Ideology, by Daniel Bell, basically the Marxism is no longer a threat. It is dying, it is no longer important. Then you had the White Collar: [The American Middle Classes], by C. Wright Mills, The Organization Man, all these things that were− This is the way it was for the parents of the boomers. And boy, and lot of boomers did not want to have any part of that. What do you feel were some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation as you experienced via your own peers, knowing that no one can talk about 74 million boomers? But were there strengths and weaknesses within the group as you knew the boomers that you were with? Not only as an activist yourself, but as a teacher who taught in the classroom, some boomers as you were a graduate student. And you saw protests and, or many that did not go to protests.
DU (01:14:17):
Yeah. Well, that is always the majority.
SM (01:14:22):
Do you have any strengths or weaknesses?
DU (01:14:33):
I was impressed by the people who were willing to apply their own understanding what they observed and act on it best their knowledge, even if that conflicted of the truth that they had been taught. And the ones who were willing to do that were always available if you could find them and were always willing to take an unnecessary stand. But you had to look for them and you had to cultivate them.
SM (01:15:35):
Would you see any weakness?
DU (01:15:39):
I recognize even to the extent that you yourself possess those qualities, sometimes they would wane and falter, and you would be in danger of losing those qualities yourself. [inaudible 01:15:55] struggled [inaudible 01:15:57].
SM (01:15:58):
Speak up again, David.
DU (01:16:00):
Was a constant struggle. So, alert and committed because the temptation is too otherwise great, and the rewards were great. But if you wanted to put yourself position where looking back, you could say, "If I had to do over, I would not do it different," then you had to take the approach I did. That is what I thought. I did not want to have to look back say, "I wish I had done this or that." [inaudible 01:16:36] greatly different.
SM (01:16:40):
It is like someone says, the philosopher says when you are on your deathbed and your life passes before you, you hope you− It is not all about the car, the money, the house. It was about what you have done with your life.
DU (01:16:55):
Yeah.
SM (01:16:55):
And I think what you are saying is that you are very comfortable with that. Do you like the term, "the boomer generation"?
DU (01:17:02):
I never use it. I never felt a part of it. I mean, I am not precisely demographically. I am born two years before, but also, I did not participate much in that a lifestyle encapsulated in that phrase. Boomer generation, the act of [inaudible 01:17:37] boomer generation was yuppies as much as anything else.
SM (01:17:48):
Oh yeah. That was a term in the (19)80s.
DU (01:17:55):
Never part of that, I hope.
SM (01:17:58):
Yeah. Lot of them thought they were the most unique generation in American history. Your thoughts on that?
DU (01:18:05):
No.
SM (01:18:05):
No?
DU (01:18:09):
No, everybody like think that about themselves, but no. I faced certain challenges and opportunities and just did what I thought my circumstances to my personality at that particular time and place required. At one point, I was something called the International Fellows program at Columbia, which was supposedly a select group of graduate students who were ushered off DC for meetings with important people in 50 agencies, and who have had the special seminars, some have dinners with important people back on the campus. International, it really was really a screening and recruiting of program for replacement part for the establishment.
SM (01:19:30):
Oh wow.
DU (01:19:30):
In the course that, I mean, it was if you were selected for this, I knew without being told that these opportunities were in front of you. You were being groomed for your place in the establishment. So, we went off to Washington and we were taken to the Pentagon [inaudible 01:19:59] and we were taken to the CIA. We were taken to the State Department, had a meeting with the Secretary of State Dean Rusk at time.
SM (01:20:11):
Wow.
DU (01:20:19):
About 10 of us, International Fellows program, one or two [inaudible 01:20:19]. And this was in, I do not know, (19)68, (19)69 there about when the country was in and up. Campus was [inaudible 01:20:30]. And it was a strange time of trouble and [inaudible 01:20:36]. And every day is filled, the horror as slaughter [inaudible 01:20:45] interpretated in your name and with your money on the far side world. And here you were inside the digital to the folks who were performing these things.
SM (01:20:57):
Wow.
DU (01:21:04):
Face-to-face with what are you going do? In these small group meetings, they were looking at on the table with the Secretary of State or with Peters with the CIA and the Pentagon. And I knew how you were supposed to behave. And I just would not, or could not, or did not at each of those places. So, the professor in charge of the program tried to avoid me. Could not forever ignore my hand once [inaudible 01:21:42]. And each of those places, I have made some kind of comment [inaudible 01:21:51].
SM (01:21:51):
Speak up, too.
DU (01:21:54):
I made a comment or raised some kind of question, essentially, got our group thrown out of the Pentagon, CIA. And they [inaudible 01:22:06] brought those meetings to an end.
SM (01:22:09):
Just by your question?
DU (01:22:11):
Yes.
SM (01:22:11):
Oh my God.
DU (01:22:15):
Oh. And the meeting was quickly wrapped up. And the Secondary of State excused himself, and he was gone.
SM (01:22:21):
What were the questions?
DU (01:22:24):
Oh, I do not remember for sure. I mean, it was first designed to make them address things that they did not want to address.
SM (01:22:33):
Did you, by accidentally say, "Secretary warmonger, I mean, Secretary Rusk"?
DU (01:22:40):
That is not my [inaudible 01:22:42]. It was something oblique, but pointed and unmistakable. I do not remember for sure, but what I do remember one CIA. We were in a big room, not all that [inaudible 01:23:12]. Across one wall of this room was a big painting of China. Was done all up red China. The evil empire. And along one back wall of these one-way mirrors so you knew you were being watched, recorded. God, they were so creepy. Oh, when we get there, we walked down these long hallways where you pass doors and file cabinets that had combination locked rather than handles on the doors. And you had to sign in the beginning. And get one of these ID badges which not common at time [inaudible 01:23:53]. Got up the meeting at the big room to go to the men's room just around the corner, somebody appeared from somewhere and followed you there. That kind of setting.
SM (01:24:04):
Wow.
DU (01:24:06):
And in that setting, what they [inaudible 01:24:07]. And they had told us about all the wonderful things the CIA does and how abroad, and only in the gathering intelligence provides for the safety of the American system. And I told the story of something I had encountered in Alabama that gave the clear impression that somebody who worked for the CIA was spying on me and some of my companions and trying to sabotage our operations, contrary to what we had just been told by these people. Oh, and the whole room fell silent. And they brought that meeting to an end. And we went down this long hallway and everybody else in the group was shied away from, but I was a big, invisible bubble around. CIA, nobody wanted to be anywhere near me, all got on the bus and only half people [inaudible 01:25:12] out CIA compound. One of the guys [inaudible 01:25:15], "Yeah, thank you. I am [inaudible 01:25:17]." But until then, they did not know me. That was what happened CIA.
SM (01:25:26):
Wow. Who was the professor that ran that?
DU (01:25:31):
I do not-
SM (01:25:31):
Do not remember? And I think I know how you are going to respond to this, but how do you respond to conservative critics of the generation reared in the (19)50s and involved in the (19)60s and (19)70s activism that many of the problems in our society today center around the drug culture, the sexual freedom, the lack of respect for authority, challenging the system, rock and roll, long hair, clothes; counterculture, that kind of− And a lot of them, whether it be Newt Gingrich or George [Wilson's 01:26:07] commentaries, or even on Fox, you hear it all the time. There is Mike Huckabee. You hear it all the time, "back then," or "the (19)60s" and all this other stuff. What do you think of when you hear of that stuff?
DU (01:26:22):
Those are the fees of illegitimate authorities that cannot command respect by-
SM (01:26:39):
Speak up, and please speak up.
DU (01:26:39):
− Those are the fees of illegitimate authority that cannot command respect by deeds and [inaudible 01:26:48] vague or [inaudible 01:26:51] people to accepting their authority. Authority that worthy of respect does not have demand it, conferred without the request. Authority that does not deserve respect should not expect it. The way the American authority is played in their conduct [inaudible 01:27:24] abroad and in their treatment of fellow citizens, like in civil rights era showed them me as unworthy of respect. I did not respect them. Maybe on as individuals, maybe, but as legitimate authorities, no. And as for the rest of it, all those things you cited, [inaudible 01:27:56] whatever else you said, I never considered myself or hippy crowd-
SM (01:28:04):
Oh, the counterculture crowd.
DU (01:28:06):
− No.
SM (01:28:07):
Yeah.
DU (01:28:08):
But everybody in that era was affected by it. But I was never a participant. When I was at Woodstock, I went to Woodstock.
SM (01:28:24):
Wow. You were there?
DU (01:28:25):
Oh yeah. I mean, it was happening in the vicinity, and it was obviously a big event. And the governor of New York came on the radio and said, "This is a disaster. Do not go there." And when I heard that, I thought, "Well, damn. I got to go."
SM (01:28:36):
Were you there all four days?
DU (01:28:43):
No. For about two days.
SM (01:28:45):
You were there during the rains?
DU (01:28:47):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. What I remember mostly is long before you see it and long before you could even hear it, you could smell it because of the rain, all the garbage and the [inaudible 01:29:00].
SM (01:29:00):
Oh yeah. You remember the musicians you saw?
DU (01:29:03):
Well, you did not get close enough too much. It was so heard, smelled, could not get very close [inaudible 01:29:19] but I did not.
SM (01:29:22):
Yeah, you were not in that group that was sliding down on the mud and that-
DU (01:29:27):
Not purpose, I mean, some ways you slid in the mud, just could not help.
SM (01:29:34):
Some people's cars were parked five miles away.
DU (01:29:37):
Oh yeah. Mine, I mean, I was a long ways off and walk. I am glad I went, because I mean, it was a phenomenon. But I did not really feel like a participant. I was there. That was not my kind of scene.
SM (01:30:00):
Did you see a lot of spaced out people?
DU (01:30:02):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I did not like that. I did not participate in that. And I thought that was system's deliberate way of turning people off from activism. I agreed with the pretty much the old hard nose [inaudible 01:30:30] type about that. This was all bread and circuses and the opiate of the masses stuff designed to divert them from their [inaudible 01:30:44] ought to be their true cause. I was inclined to agree with that.
SM (01:30:47):
I know when I interviewed Richie Havens, Richie Havens said that it was a tremendous happening because they are finally listening to us. He said in 1969, referring to the people, the young people that were there and the musicians. "They are finally listening to us," and he thought that was a magic moment there. The media has played a huge role in− I can read my, I do not want my glasses here, in terms of "outlining and showing the extravagant and extremes over the norms of the 1960s." Knowing that 85 to 90 percent of the young people were not even involved in activism, I still feel they were subconsciously affected. The media is supposed to cover controversy and news, not create it with one-sided presentations. And I think what we are seeing, even with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock and all these anniversaries of Ken State, and the media seems to only go after the sensational. And what are your thoughts on the media? You were part of it for a while.
DU (01:32:01):
Oh yeah. I have been part of the media. And in my activist guises, I mean, I have relied on the media to publicize what I was doing, spread the word. And it took a mutually exploitive [inaudible 01:32:33] understood by everybody, all that you are providing them with a product, they sell of advertisers because they will [inaudible 01:32:50] interest and viewers and listeners. And in exchange, they provide you with some access for your ideas to people who otherwise would not counter.
SM (01:33:08):
And in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
DU (01:33:17):
(19)60s began in 1956 or there about.
SM (01:33:27):
About when?
DU (01:33:28):
In 1956. The (19)60s began with the civil rights movement, Brown versus Board of Education and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Those then showed that the existing system was not ordained forever. And that change was actually possible. That began in the (19)50s. And me, that is, (19)60s have not stopped.
SM (01:34:11):
Is there a watershed moment?
DU (01:34:17):
The assassination Martin Luther King of-
SM (01:34:24):
(19)68.
DU (01:34:25):
− the course of stream of time. About watershed, yeah.
SM (01:34:32):
Yeah. That year, (19)68. Where were you when JFK was killed? Do you know the exact moment where you were?
DU (01:34:40):
Yeah, I was on the campus at Harvard. And actually I was, I did a little announcing work for the Harvard student radio station. Soon as I heard Kennedy had been shot, I went to station. And I was the one who announced over the WHRB, that was Harvard radio that Harvard graduate, John Kennedy, had died.
SM (01:35:18):
Wow. But did you have the TV on right there with Walter Cronkite or the other channels?
DU (01:35:30):
Oh, that probably. I do not remember for certain what all the connections, the technical connections were in the radio [inaudible 01:35:41]. I was in the Harvard yard when word first read Kennedy had been shot.
SM (01:35:50):
Wow.
DU (01:35:50):
And went immediately to the radio station. I was one of the regular announcers did mostly classical music program. And the assignment of announcing Kennedy's death over Harvard radio.
SM (01:36:10):
Did you take any calls or did you just announce it and leave? Or were-were you on for a while?
DU (01:36:19):
We interrupted regular programming course.
SM (01:36:23):
Okay.
DU (01:36:25):
News bulletin as they arrived, I was helping do that and news of his death [inaudible 01:36:35] and I was [inaudible 01:36:36] a somber moment. I had-
SM (01:36:39):
Now on that campus on those four days, it was a Friday through Monday. So obviously somber all over the country. Were you in your residence hall room− Or you were probably watching all the students on TV or all the events from the-
DU (01:36:57):
Radio station.
SM (01:36:59):
− Right. But when you left the radio station, did most of the students watch it on their television set?
DU (01:37:05):
Remember specifically.
SM (01:37:07):
Right.
DU (01:37:07):
Probably. But I do not recall.
SM (01:37:11):
Did the university do anything?
DU (01:37:15):
I was looking to see even Lee Harvey Oswald got shot, remember seeing that.
SM (01:37:17):
Yes, that was on Sunday. Wow.
DU (01:37:21):
That was when you first began to think, "Oh, there is something going on here beyond what is acknowledged."
SM (01:37:33):
When the students at Harvard knew that he had died, what were you talking with each other as students trying to figure out why and how could this happen in America? Or what? It only happens in other countries?
DU (01:37:55):
I remember all of those speculations. There is such absurd welter of recollections that it is impossible me to separate actually what I thought, learned at one time or another about that from thought or learned at another. Any speculation or data that you have come across connect with that is probably something that I do and added to my fund of uncertain knowledge, which I still have. I do not feel I understand who did better, how that happened. I certainly do not believe Harvey Oswald all by himself went out decided that he was going change history by killing the president.
SM (01:38:58):
You already defined the term activism and talked about it with respect to university campuses. And we were talking about the influence that student protest had on universities, whether it was lasting or whatever. But the question I am coming up with here is, are today's universities, after− I guess what I am going to say here is− I read my words here. Define volunteerism in your own words. You have already divine activism, (19)60s activism compared to today's volunteerism. What I am trying to say is that I feel that the universities today are afraid of the term activism because it brings back memories of that period in the (19)60s where there were disruptions and certainly disruption of classes, and certainly more student power, as Tom Hayden used to said, empowerment, not just power. And it is very nice to have volunteerism because volunteerism is required in fraternities and sororities. And this is what all students do, volunteer work, and probably over 90 percent of the students are doing it on all campuses. But there is a big difference in my opinion between activism, which is 24 hours a day, seven days a week mentality, and volunteerism, which is only a couple hours a week. Am I right in feeling that today's universities are afraid of activism on college campuses? Of course, they say volunteerism is their activism.
DU (01:40:46):
I cannot address that much in relation to universities because I do not have regular [inaudible 01:40:52] at a university. But around communities where I have lived, and I do. And to me, by volunteerism is free labor on behalf of system. And activism is a challenge system.
SM (01:41:19):
And are you saying that people do not like to be challenged?
DU (01:41:25):
Some do, some do not. I have done both. Just this morning before talking to you, I was had a big meeting convened by the governor of a commission to supposedly plan and arrange for the restoration of the oil rec Gulf coast. Even though I was [inaudible 01:41:50] by the very establishment business sort of commission that the governor put together with a few [inaudible 01:42:00] came environmentalists on board. But not the likes of me, but I went anyway and just appeared there and participated in the sense of an activist, rather than a volunteer. In the discussions of [inaudible 01:42:23] and raise some question, brought up some issues that I do not think would have been on the agenda at all, otherwise. That is what activists does. And then they all went to a catered lunch without me. I was not invited.
SM (01:42:53):
Well, obviously, is this Harvard reincarnation?
DU (01:42:59):
Sort of, yeah.
SM (01:43:02):
Well, that is good. Because you go with your own drummer, so to speak. Your thoughts on when the anti-war movement turned violent out of frustration? We all know the history of Students for Democratic Society. They did have a lot of respect. But when it split into the Weathermen, everything changed and SDS really died. We had the Black Panthers who were carrying guns on university campuses at Cornell− Well, students at Cornell were carrying guns, but Black Panthers were always saying that they needed guns to protect themselves from the police because police were being brutal every day. And you had the American Indian movement in 1973, and the violence at Wounded Knee. So you saw, and I know that in the Chicano community and the Young Bloods, they copied the Black Panthers. This is my thought: to me, this hurt all movements, and is why the neocons and conservatives write are legitimate in their attacks on the period itself, because they look at those things that were really negative, even amongst liberals. And your thoughts on when it went violent?
DU (01:44:20):
When I first heard [inaudible 01:44:25] others who became and then Bernardine Dohrn and those folks who became the Weathermen talking that way. I was in many meetings with most of those folks, one time or another, around Columbia in Cortland, New York. By the time they pick up the gun, they were carrying on in that fashion. It was hard for me keep from laughing because they were talking of harming themselves in order to carry out the revolution that they knew was just on the verge-
PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:45:04]
DU (01:45:03):
To carry out the revolution that they knew was just on the verge of break out. And it was so ludicrous, mistaken understanding their place. It was tempting to laugh, and I could not because they were obviously so serious about it.
SM (01:45:27):
Please speak up again.
DU (01:45:29):
And they are obviously so serious about it.
SM (01:45:31):
Uh-huh [affirmative].
DU (01:45:31):
And some of them, like Ted Gold who'd dead because of it. And I remember saying to them, in some of these meetings, if you think you need an armed cadre to carry out the revolution of his ripe, you do not need to be picking up the gun belt and going off weekend encampment to teach yourself how to shoot. I said, this whole country is armed. You need to recruit those people who have guns and know how to use them, to your side. If you try, without them to do this, you are going to be the losers. In short order and big time, they were. They did not want to recruit to their side of the proletarian task of who were armed and might be ready for revolution. They wanted to reside over a revolution that they directed. And they were nowhere close to having historical opportunity or the political organization to help them− It is baffling to me, that they could have been so hallucinatorily deranged about this, but they were.
SM (01:47:03):
We all know about the Weathermen, and interesting, Black Panther's always used− It is so confusing. Black Panthers said they were not a violent group, and they had guns only to protect themselves. And some would say, well look what happened to the killing of Fred Hampton in Chicago. "We had to protect ourselves or they will come and kill us all."
DU (01:47:24):
Right.
SM (01:47:24):
And then of course we had the COINTELPRO, which did terrible things, infiltrating organizations. And some people have even gone to the extreme of saying that the reason why the Weathermen went violent is because of infiltrators that were from the CIA who encouraged them to become violent so that they would become illegitimate.
DU (01:47:44):
I am sure some of that happened.
SM (01:47:47):
I just, you see you have got all this stuff here, but most people are against violence. Dr. King was nonviolent protest. Then you get the Stokely Carmichael types and then Malcolm's, by any means necessary. And I think Malcolm was believing in taking guns to protect oneself, not to kill people. But this is a very, it is very confusing. You have to look at it in its context. But would not you say that whenever there is violence, it creates a negative image for any group?
DU (01:48:25):
Malcolm said that it is almost a criminal act to tell somebody under assault, he should not defend himself.
SM (01:48:35):
Say that again.
DU (01:48:36):
Malcolm said, it is almost a criminal act, to teach somebody who is under assault, that he should not defend himself.
SM (01:48:43):
Mm-hmm [affirmative].
DU (01:48:45):
And I was inclined to agree with that. Right? And I think people like him and the Black Panthers, for the most part, were defending themselves. And in case by Fred Hanson, not successfully.
SM (01:49:05):
What did you think of that scene at Cornell University in (19)69 of students with guns walking out of the union? What was that all about?
DU (01:49:15):
A new guy from Mobile. He went to Cornell with a pistol, tried to get the education that he thought he deserved.
SM (01:49:33):
He was in that group?
DU (01:49:36):
I do not think he was in that group, but he briefly went to Cornell. And he believed that Cornell intended not to provide him with education. And that the whole system was set up to provide him with an education.
SM (01:49:52):
Right.
DU (01:49:52):
That if he did not threaten violence, he was not going to get an education.
SM (01:49:56):
Wow.
DU (01:50:05):
That was−
SM (01:50:05):
This is a question that, took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995 to meet Senator Musky. There were 14 of us. And the students came up with this question on the issue of healing. And the question was this, that they asked the Senator, due to the extreme divisions that took place in the 1960s and early (19)70s, between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and those were against the war, and those who supported the troops or against the troops, and all the other divisions that took place at that time. Witnessing what happened in America in 1968, with the two assassinations and the convention and turmoil of police beating heads, a president withdrawing, burnings in the cities, talk that we were heading toward a second civil war. Do you feel that the (19)60s, or the boomer generation, is going to its grave like the Civil War generation as a generation that will never heal from the divisions that tore them apart?
DU (01:51:20):
No, because I do not think the divisions were anywhere near as a deep or grave as Civil War divisions. Civil War divisions are still here. What is Faulkner's famous quote about, the past is gone, it is even past? Something like that.
SM (01:51:50):
His what now?
DU (01:51:53):
Faulkner said, the past has been forgotten in the fact it is not even past. Something to that.
SM (01:52:00):
Okay.
DU (01:52:05):
That legacy is still with us every day. But you see that around Alabama, anywhere you look. So, this business of the Boomer Era, I do not think it is anywhere near the−
SM (01:52:26):
Yeah.
DU (01:52:27):
The sound of that.
SM (01:52:30):
The students thought that Senator Musky would talk about 1968, because he was the vice presidential running mate at that convention. And he mentioned nothing about (19)68. He basically said we have not healed since the Civil War and the issue of race. And then he went on to talk about that at length, and that we had lost 430,000 men in that war, almost an entire generation in the south. So, you are kind of right in your assumptions, or not right, but you agree with the Senator Musky. One of the qualities that often is labeled in this generation, is they are not a very trusting generation, because they all witnessed, including those that were not activists, so many presidents and leaders who lied to them. Whether it be the experience of Watergate, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which a lot of people knew was a lie by (19)65, by President Johnson. Then you had the U-2 incident where President Eisenhower lied on national television. You had so many other politicians who had lied. Nobody trusted the information coming back from Vietnam because they knew that the counts that were being presented in American public included animals and all kinds of things. So, the lies were conscious. So young Black Boomers did not trust anyone in positions of authority, whether it be a minister or a rabbi, priest, university president, vice president of student affairs, Congressman, Senator, any corporate leader, anybody in position of responsibility. But do you feel that is a negative quality or a positive quality, this lacking of trust?
DU (01:54:19):
I think it is a positive quality not to trust if the trust is untrustworthy. If you truly are being misled and misused by those in positions of authority, you had better distrust them.
SM (01:54:35):
Do you believe what a lot of political science believe?
DU (01:54:40):
What?
SM (01:54:41):
Do you believe what a lot of political scientists believe that the sign of a true democracy is when you do not trust your government? Because that means that liberty and democracy is alive and well?
DU (01:54:54):
No. In a democracy you would be able to trust the government.
SM (01:55:02):
Right. But if you do not trust it, that is okay too, isn't it?
DU (01:55:06):
No, that is not a democracy.
SM (01:55:11):
Explain the−
DU (01:55:15):
If you do not trust it, then you believe that it is effectively operating against your interest. That cannot be a democracy, unless you are some sort of autocrat. In that case, if it is not operating against you, it might be a democracy. But if you are part of the demos, and you do not trust the government, then it is not a democracy. Because you were rightly doubtful about it toward you.
SM (01:55:54):
I got about 10-
DU (01:55:54):
Oh, I think the need to distrust it is an unhealthy, not a healthy one.
SM (01:56:06):
Can we go 10 more minutes? Because I have got about 10 more minutes here.
DU (01:56:10):
Yeah.
SM (01:56:10):
Okay. What did we learn from Vietnam?
DU (01:56:17):
Next to nothing, near as I know.
SM (01:56:22):
What have we forgotten about Vietnam?
DU (01:56:29):
What was the story about the French regime, about how they had learned nothing and had forgotten nothing?
SM (01:56:39):
Who was that now, the French regime?
DU (01:56:43):
The ancient regime on the verge of the−
SM (01:56:44):
Oh, okay.
DU (01:56:45):
− the overthrow. That they were incapable of learning. The circumstances changed, but they had not forgotten any of their old resentments or loyalty. They had learned nothing and forgotten nothing. I think the Vietnam experience is similar. Learned nothing, forgot nothing. My belief, it is one of the− The radio station anymore says this stuff.
SM (01:57:14):
And please speak up.
DU (01:57:18):
I said, one of the reasons I am not at the radio station anymore, because I said this stuff on the air. When these new wars are on it, I believe that the anti-war movement saved the world from World War III. Because without it, I think the pro war element in Washington would have pushed that Vietnam forward to the point where they brought China to war. Because China was never going to accept American victory, or even the approach of American victory. Vietnam, just sad not in Korea. So if pro-war folks had been able to have their way, and supply all of their resources, including even nuclear ones to that war, they would have pushed it to the point where they brought China in before. And that would have made World War III.
SM (01:58:10):
Wow.
DU (01:58:10):
Nuclear World War III. The anti-war movement prevented the warriors in Washington doing that. And in the process, I think saved the world from World War III.
SM (01:58:30):
Uh- huh [affirmative]
DU (01:58:30):
But that does not mean that those in command of the forces who could create World War III learned this lesson. I do not think they did.
SM (01:58:47):
Wow.
DU (01:58:48):
Which means that some anti-war movement may need to rise again, form the same active probation. Of chief difference now is that there is not booming over these current wars, prospect of another superpower able to challenge America in a way that could bring on World War. That is not apparent at the moment it could be. It could appear, as yet, but it certainly was apparent in Vietnam and the memory of the Cuban Missile Crisis. It instructed you about that every time you gave it a thought. So I believe the antiwar movement saved us from that, and that there was not the recognition of thanks for doing so. That does not get it. It is still a curse to call somebody a hippie.
SM (01:59:49):
Right.
DU (02:00:02):
In fact, when Bush started his wars, I was, for a little while allowed to be on the radio, there were people who detected the card of my anti-war, who were just puzzled. Many were furious and calling me a traitor and in a sense calling for a death sentence if you opposed. Some were just puzzled. And then−
SM (02:00:30):
Okay.
DU (02:00:32):
And they said, "How can you, you just oppose war? You are against war?" They were puzzle that anybody would think war was a bad idea.
SM (02:00:55):
Unbelievable.
DU (02:00:59):
Not only do I think it is bad, I think those who stood up against the Vietnam War save the world from ruin. They should be honored for it, as it is filed and said, those who ordered the war and those who carried it out are honored. And that legacy sets us up for more of the same.
SM (02:01:28):
It is interesting, it is just like it is a brand-new book. I buy everything on Vietnam that I can read. But in the Vietnam section, if you go to Barnes & Noble right now, and even Borders, there is a brand-new book out on Tet. We would have won Tet, and that is what the book is about. And this is about a guy from Vietnam who was there, and this is how we would have won Tet. I do not want to hear that. And that is again saying, we actually did not lose Tet, but in the eyes of our public, it affected us. And that is a lot of the reason why President Johnson withdrew. But when you learned, when you hear words, oftentimes there were slogans that were said at the time of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, just what did these few slogans or actually words mean to you? And the first one is, we already mentioned, "By any means necessary." What did Malcolm mean by that?
DU (02:02:34):
That is playing on his face. That is not that ambiguous, I do not think. He was saying that we are not going to accept the status that you have forced upon us.
SM (02:02:44):
And please speak up.
DU (02:02:45):
We are not going to accept that it is forced upon us. And whatever is required to alter that, is what we will do. Even if that means we must die in the trying, which he did.
SM (02:03:08):
How about JFK in his inaugural, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." So supposedly it was inspired by young people, and it was, at the University of Michigan. And then he had a great guy named Sergeant Schreiber, who kind of carried it down with a Peace Corps in one area. But it really inspired a lot of people, even to go into the service.
DU (02:03:29):
Oh, it did. It did. And it has often been taken in a plea for people to surrender themselves to the suffocating embrace of the state. But that was not what Kennedy meant and that was not how it was taken at the time. Rather, it was a call to set aside your private headache turn for a greater communal turn. Enacted through the machinery of the state, which at the time, was widely believed to me a magnificent and efficient operation that could actually enact higher ideals than individual personal satisfaction.
SM (02:04:39):
His other one that we all know is, "We will bear any burden, pay any price." And a lot of people believe that set the tone for the Vietnam war.
DU (02:04:48):
Yep.
SM (02:04:49):
Do you believe that? Because he was long dead after we had the advisors there, but it was Johnson who brought the troops in.
DU (02:04:59):
Who knows what Kennedy had signed, or Sorenson who probably wrote it. And that sounds like inaugural bluffery to me. So, Kennedy, he did pay any price, did not he?
SM (02:05:30):
Yeah, he did. And "Bear any burden, pay any price." Of course, that fall, the DM regime fell just about a month before he was assassinated. So there was a lot going on there.
DU (02:05:44):
It did not fall, it was [inaudible 02:05:44]
SM (02:05:44):
Yeah.
DU (02:05:45):
Right?
SM (02:05:45):
Yeah.
DU (02:05:47):
Yeah.
SM (02:05:47):
I believe the President was shocked though that they were killed.
DU (02:05:49):
Oh, okay.
SM (02:05:51):
Yeah. Robert Kennedy's favorite slogan was, "Some men see things as they are and ask why, I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was not his original quote, but he used it. I believe he quoted that in Indianapolis the night that Dr. King was−
DU (02:06:08):
That is right.
SM (02:06:10):
That is kind of an activist mentality, isn't it? It is kind of a−
DU (02:06:14):
Yes it is. Yep.
SM (02:06:16):
That is pretty inspirational. Would you say that is how see would some of your light?
DU (02:06:26):
Yes, I suppose. And I do not think those are a mark of his brothers. The way they are now, he talked through the histrionics of a bloated federal− I took them as a plea for a turn toward common rather than individual health values. And exercise to the coordination of state. It sounds quaint now to say that because they have lost a cluster of being in a capable institution. But those things were said by the Kennedys, at a time much closer to the New Deal than we are now to the time when Kennedy said those things.
SM (02:07:46):
Right. Yep.
DU (02:07:52):
And the apparent success of the New Deal in raising a whole stratum of the population out of destitution, to some hopeful life, was still very much on people's mind.
SM (02:08:08):
The one that, obviously you being in the south for a long time, "We shall overcome." Of course, the song is historic and you hear it all the time today. And certainly hear it on Dr. King's birthday. But how does that impact you?
DU (02:08:30):
It keeps you going when nothing else will.
SM (02:08:36):
Mm-hmm.
DU (02:08:40):
It did so during a movement era when you knew that you had some kind of mass and some kind of momentum with you, but also knew that you had stirred up a determined and even deadly persistence. So that song and the sentiment sustains you. And it also sustains you in times when that movement is gone, and you are operating much of the time, almost alone, and in the darkness. And you have to pause and wonder why.
SM (02:09:18):
Right.
DU (02:09:18):
And that song and its sentiments help carry on when nothing else will.
SM (02:09:27):
There was the one that, " Tune in, turn on, drop out," was Timothy Leary. Your thoughts on that?
DU (02:09:38):
Leary was not my favorite. I never ever was attracted to what he was doing. Diversionary at best, destructive at worse.
SM (02:09:57):
This−
DU (02:09:57):
I also thought that the sort of people he appealed to most were folks who had, somewhere in the privileged echelon, who had lots of cushions they could fall back on if they made any big mistakes in life. But others who did not have the cushion to fall back on, if they followed Leary's ways, and made one or two big mistakes, they were probably finished forever. But Leary and his buddy Albert came from an appeal who knew that they had lots of cushions that they could stop and they could bounce back. Most people could not, and they were going to be victims rather than liberated.
SM (02:10:55):
How about the women's movement and, "All politics is personal"?
DU (02:11:07):
I do not believe all politics is personal. But some politics are politics.
SM (02:11:18):
That was the slogan of the National Organization for Women, when they started, how politics was personal.
DU (02:11:26):
It is in line with a lot of these others we have been talking about. I did not participate in it, as much as the others. I have never called myself a feminist. Some men do. I cannot believe in calling myself a feminist, but I acknowledge that it has greatly altered society.
SM (02:11:56):
Then there was, on the Peter Max posters that were very popular in the early (19)70s, the hippie mentality. "You do your thing; I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful."
DU (02:12:11):
Yeah.
SM (02:12:15):
You like that kind of mentality?
DU (02:12:19):
No. I mean−
SM (02:12:20):
Yeah.
DU (02:12:21):
And an activist does not believe that.
SM (02:12:25):
Right.
DU (02:12:27):
Activists are always speaking organization, and direction, and purpose. And what that requires, people become loosened from, if not separated, loosened from their familiar ways besides, so that they are willing to think about and do different things of, they won't become so loose unless they adopt some of that hippy attitude. But if they become the stuff of hippies, then they disappear from that active life.
SM (02:13:05):
How about the−
DU (02:13:06):
They are no help.
SM (02:13:07):
This was, there is actually two of them from Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone over 30." And then he changed it to 40. And then, do it, which was the title of his book, Do It. They were kind of the yippie mentality, the yippies.
DU (02:13:25):
Yeah.
SM (02:13:28):
Any thoughts on that?
DU (02:13:32):
Abbie Hoffman spoke once at the State University here in Mobile, and offered to jump off the stage and into the audience and try to punch me out. He was restrained by some of the other professors on the stage who had invited him to speak. Because I had challenged from the audience, during the question period, about exactly these sort of things. The message he and Rubin said lured people away from activism and turned them off rather than turned them on. And in many cases, physically or emotionally wrecked them, affected them into a life of drugs, of the opposite of raising them consciousness activism. And he was more of a digressive than a progressive influence because of that. Ooh−
SM (02:14:44):
Wow.
DU (02:14:46):
He was pissed. He wanted to jump off the stage and have it out on the spot with me, he said. And made some motions like he was going to do that, but I think he would probably seized, some of the other jumped up and grabbed him.
SM (02:15:02):
It is amazing, because of the perceptions I have had from between Abbie and Jerry is Jerry was not a likable person and Abbie was. And Abbie lived a lifetime of activism, but Jerry went off to make money. It is an interesting story. I have interviewed a lot of his friends. Here is one, the last one here is, "One giant step for man, one giant leap for mankind," which is Neil Armstrong. Even though it was up in space, it still has, I think, a meaning to a lot of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Because if we actually accomplished something, we got, a promise was made by a President, and here we are on the moon before the end of the decade.
DU (02:15:50):
I think I remember being deliberately unimpressed by that.
SM (02:15:55):
Right?
DU (02:15:59):
I thought it was literally out of this world, other worldly. And it defected or deflected from rather than helped address things that needed to be addressed in this world.
SM (02:16:15):
Oh, okay.
DU (02:16:15):
And I, to the best of my ability, ignored it for those reasons. It was impossible to ignore it entirely. And it was an astonishing thing, but I thought it was irrelevant at best, and damaging at worst.
SM (02:16:35):
Considering that it was on a stage in Arizona too, was hard to−
DU (02:16:38):
Yes.
SM (02:16:41):
Some people tried to say that.
DU (02:16:42):
Yes. And listen, do not get me wrong about Rubin and Hoffman. And I thought some of the things they did, like making the stock brokers go crazy by tossing dollar bills off the balcony at the stock exchange.
SM (02:16:56):
Yep. That was Abbie.
DU (02:17:00):
Yeah, that was wonderful. Some of the stuff they did was.
SM (02:17:07):
Yeah, and Abbie's friends told me the differences that those two guys had. And they had friction from the get go. And Jerry was not, I cannot− He has passed away. All you have to do is go on the web, and on YouTube, and see every interview of Abbie Hoffman, and then you see the interviews of Jerry Rubin, and you see what a jerk Jerry Rubin is, and what a nice person Abbie is. So, you might have got him on a bad day. But I have only got three more questions here. The generation gap, did you have a generation gap issue with your family and parents? When you went off to college?
DU (02:17:55):
I do not, it was− Nobody in my family had ever done anything like that before. Neither of my parents were college graduates.
SM (02:18:02):
And please speak up again.
DU (02:18:06):
Neither of my parents were college grads. They graduated into the Depression and had to work. I do not know where, it was more than an obsession of mine to go off to get the most deeply teacher education I could, in the most demanding place I could get into or came from, but I had it. That was the generation, there was a gap of interest and ambition between me and the family and my surroundings. It was not generational. It was beyond that.
SM (02:19:03):
So were your parents against the war in Vietnam?
DU (02:19:06):
Yes, actually.
SM (02:19:07):
Okay.
DU (02:19:08):
Actually, before most any other adults that I knew, but I did not know that until after I had already launched a state of events about that. They were way out in the West. After I went to college, I had no regular connection with my family or this great part of my life.
SM (02:19:35):
Well you remember there was that Life Magazine that had that young man on the cover with sun and one eye shade, and the other eye shade being the father's pointing fingers at each other. So, there was a strong generation gap between the World War II and the Boomers over a lot of the issues, lifestyle, politics, but− Huh?
DU (02:19:59):
That did not happen for me, but it was mostly-
PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [02:20:04]
DU (02:20:03):
− for me but it was mostly a function of the distance and separation rather than [inaudible 02:20:14].
SM (02:20:17):
You did not see them at Harvard and Columbia with your peers?
DU (02:20:24):
Yes, I saw it. Yeah, but I did not relate to it. I did not have to deal with that intimately, like many of them did.
SM (02:20:42):
In a book called the Wounded Generation, there was a symposium in 1980 with some of the top Vietnam veterans from Phil Caputo and Jim Webb, Bobby Muller, a couple other well-known names. In that conversation, one of them mentioned that he felt that the generation gap was− Yes, there was a gap between parents and students, but the real gap was between those who went to war and those who did not within the generation. He was very critical of the generation and for those who say that the (19)60s generation was a generation that served, that is, i.e., went to the Peace Corps, Vista, did all kinds of things, served their nation in a time of war, he said it is anything but a service generation because when you are called to go to war, you go. It is like your parents did in World War II. Did you sense there was a generation gap within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not?
DU (02:21:51):
I have an older brother who was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. From the first time I went out there and I was there handing out leaflets against the war [inaudible 02:22:08] 10 years later, being chased down the streets of DC with teargas and mounted police. I was thinking I got to do what I can, as little and as ineffective as it may be, to try to bring this war to an end so my brother can get out of it alive. Even though, he was not [inaudible 02:22:37].
SM (02:22:36):
When you had family get togethers, say, in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, after the− Well, after the war was over, did you and your brother have issues with each other? Because he went to war, and you did not.
DU (02:22:59):
He just would not speak of what happened and what he did there. He would not talk about it. [inaudible 02:23:08] but the Pentagon Papers had a big impact on him. When that book came out, when they appeared in book form, he bought it and read it cover to cover. Even though, he was not the most scholarly man. He was not pleased at what he found there.
SM (02:23:40):
Wow.
DU (02:23:41):
[inaudible 02:23:41] and he realized he had been deceived.
SM (02:23:48):
Wow.
DU (02:23:49):
He realized that he was lured into what he thought was patriotic duty under false pretenses. He also realized his little brother was right.
SM (02:23:59):
Wow. Did he ever talk to you personally on that?
DU (02:24:03):
Only obliquely [inaudible 02:24:07].
SM (02:24:08):
Are you close to your brother?
DU (02:24:10):
Not particularly but [inaudible 02:24:17] our lives have gone on different paths [inaudible 02:24:21]. He just would not talk about his service. [inaudible 02:24:28] you were right after all. Some remark he made. We both knew that was so.
SM (02:24:44):
Yeah.
DU (02:24:47):
At some point, [inaudible 02:24:49] save the country and save the world from what I was sure was World War Three [inaudible 02:24:58] but also trying to save him.
SM (02:25:03):
I mentioned all those movements that evolved from the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement because the women's movement evolved in many respects because a lot of the sexism that took place in those two prior movements and women became− They had important− They did have important roles in the anti-war and civil rights movements but sexism was definitely there, and so the women's movement came about and, of course, the gay and lesbian movement in (19)69 at Stonewall. You had the Earth Day, the environmental movement in 1970, the Chicano movement, Cesar Chavez who worked closely with Bobby Kennedy and then, of course, you had the Native American movement that was going on in its heyday in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. It seemed like they were very strong movements. When there was an anti-war protest, it seemed like they were all there. Now as time goes by, it seems like whenever there is a movement, the movement is like− The women's movement is only women there. There is no anti-war groups. If there is a gay and lesbian protest, it is only them. It seems like they have become so special interest and so− They are not united anymore. At one time, they were united and now they all seem divided in their own little spheres. Am I correct in sensing this?
DU (02:26:33):
Yeah. I mentioned to you before that in those years, those movements all were− They were kindred. [inaudible 02:26:40] they grew out of and overlapped and nourished each other. If you moved from one of those realms, either in activity or geography, you would run into many of the same people. That is no longer true. You are right.
SM (02:27:11):
Even the conservative critics of those movements say they have become nothing but special interest. In other words, they only care about them. That is a very strong conservative, neoconservative criticism that all these movements, including civil rights, they are all special interest groups now and they have gone into the universities, as Phyllis Schlafly said, the universities today are run by people who were the protestors of the war. She says radicals have now taken over the universities.
DU (02:27:51):
I do not see that. I do not have daily contact of the inners of universities but what I do, I do not see that.
SM (02:28:01):
I think she sees− She saw that the women's studies, gay and lesbian studies, Asian American studies, Native American, African American studies, environmental, they are all run by liberal left people with their own agendas.
DU (02:28:19):
If you are talking about people with an identity politic outlook, trying to push their little plan forward, academically or otherwise, there is some truth in that but that is not the same as a liberal or a radical movement on campus.
SM (02:28:38):
Right.
DU (02:28:40):
Identity politic does not challenge or upset [inaudible 02:28:43] as I can tell. The imperial impulse that exists in the Vietnam War and is still as strong as ever and universities still are given more intellectual and other support to that imperial impulse as they did in the (19)60s and whatever radical counter there is to that is feeble on the campus. [inaudible 02:29:22] poor people's movement that Martin Luther King was trying to launch [inaudible 02:29:34] to the Civil Rights Movement, when he was assassinated [inaudible 02:29:41] as a result and the consequence of that poor people's movement failure are visible around you on the streets every day, of every American city, and universities are not addressing that. [inaudible 02:30:00] left behind by the failure of that movement are not prominent or influential [inaudible 02:30:05] people are talking about [inaudible 02:30:10] of the only thing they mean is some kind of identity politics and attraction in the universities, these people like Phyllis Schlafly do not like because they want to maintain a myth of the old unitary American identity and for that reason, they do not like it but other than that−
SM (02:30:39):
Would you agree, though− Again, you refer to this in the community as opposed to on the university campuses but I have been on university campuses for 30 years, and what happened with a professor being fired− I mention because he was involved in a protest or a speaker not being allowed to come to a college campus in the (19)60s for fear that money would not be given to the university because of a political point of view, that it has gotten to the other− It is really extreme today that because monies are tight on university campuses and the fact is that it is all about scholarships, it is all about fundraising, that they got to be very careful about who they invite to a university campus and if there is somebody that is controversial, it could threaten the bottom line and so they are really into that. The whole idea that Mario Savio talked about, about the world of ideas, which is what the university is about, is really today still about the bottom line and ideas play a secondary role.
DU (02:31:56):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:56):
Do you agree with that?
DU (02:31:57):
Yes. Yes. A few years ago, I was with all these people who had gone to bring a Palestinian speaker to the city and to campus venues. Among those promoting this were some Jewish groups advocating on behalf of Palestinian rights and [inaudible 02:32:28] moderate and polite way and that caused [inaudible 02:32:34] and on the state university campus here for exactly the reason you just said.
SM (02:32:38):
Yeah, it is interesting.
DU (02:32:41):
[inaudible 02:32:41] they might withhold who did not like any [inaudible 02:32:50] presentation [inaudible 02:32:56] be known that if this happened, financial consequences would follow.
SM (02:33:03):
Yeah. That is interesting. We did a conference my last semester that I organized with a couple of faculty members and students called Islam In America. We were packed every session, the whole theater was packed for 10 straight sessions from morning until about 10 o'clock, 10:30 at night, and I never saw so much criticism in my life of a successful event and it was all about educating about what it means to be in the religion of Islam. It had nothing to do with being anti-Israel. Oh my God. Everybody on the committee was looked at, studied, ridiculed, all the speakers, all the panelists were all ridiculed. I mean, people that I worked with− That is one of the reasons that I love the university. People I worked with who had never came to things, they were all in the audience and they were just there to try and see if anything negative happened. Nothing negative happened except people were upset that− They thought that we were promoting as opposed to educating. I only got two more and then we are done, because I know you have gone over, and I really appreciate it. Could you list some of the heavyweights in the lives of Boomers over the past 64 years? List the people who stood out− Actually, in your view, people that stood out in the following areas since 1946 that you feel had an influence on the Boomer generation. The first category is TV/radio personalities.
DU (02:34:43):
TV/radio personalities?
SM (02:34:45):
Yes. It could be news men, it could be talk show hosts, it could be anything.
DU (02:34:57):
Edward R. Murrow.
SM (02:34:59):
Okay.
DU (02:35:00):
Are you asking about people who have influenced me or who I think have influenced [inaudible 02:35:08].
SM (02:35:08):
Yeah. People that you think − When you look at the last, what is now 64 years since Boomers were born, because they are now reaching 64 this year, people that you feel, you personally, who has lived the same time that they have lived, and you are not very much older, I mean, you are a year or two older, so you are really one of them and I have learned that, that people from (19)40 on, to me, are really Boomers in their mentality, in the way they live their lives, and everything. You know, TV personalities that you felt were major in their lives. You have said Edward R. Murrow.
DU (02:35:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (02:35:51):
Anybody else?
DU (02:35:54):
I do not know. I never paid much attention to TV.
SM (02:35:59):
Okay. How about writers?
DU (02:36:03):
I mentioned [inaudible 02:36:06]. I was an early devote of Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings. A buddy in college [inaudible 02:36:21] and as a fable of perseverance in the face of difficulties, even [inaudible 02:36:41].
SM (02:36:52):
Who's the person?
DU (02:36:55):
Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings.
SM (02:36:57):
Oh, the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. Any others before we go− The next section is politicians.
DU (02:37:07):
Yeah. Lately, I have been reading and rereading Given.
SM (02:37:16):
Edward Given?
DU (02:37:17):
The Decline and the Fall of the Roman−
SM (02:37:18):
Yeah. We had to read that when I was a history major.
DU (02:37:22):
Yeah. It seemed pertinent.
SM (02:37:31):
How about politicians? There were a lot of them.
DU (02:37:31):
Politicians? I worked for Senator Frank Church of Idaho.
SM (02:37:45):
You are lucky. He was a great person.
DU (02:37:47):
Yeah. I mean, I knew him− When I was a cheeky teen, I just walked into his office, in the federal building in Boise one day when I knew he was there, and the Congress was in session. I introduced myself. I said, "You are my senator. I want to get to know you." He was sitting there by himself. He invited me home and I went and had dinner with him.
SM (02:38:16):
Oh my gosh. What an experience.
DU (02:38:16):
Yeah. You could do that in a small town like that. I kept up with him after that and I worked in his Washington office. [inaudible 02:38:30] one summer. I was working in Senator Church's office.
SM (02:38:37):
Oh, wow.
DU (02:38:38):
Did that for two summers.
SM (02:38:43):
Wow. He is historic because of the Church committee and, of course, his son Forrest passed away this past year. I interviewed him for the book.
DU (02:38:54):
Well, I knew Forrest also. Forrest was around the office the summers I was working. [inaudible 02:39:06] senator's wife and, of course, mother. She is still alive. [inaudible 02:39:16]. I was very impressed with Church in a rock star kind of way because he was young and a flashy senator and he hung out with the Kennedys and all that when I was an impressionable age, and I claimed [inaudible 02:39:40] but when I got to know him more politically, [inaudible 02:39:47] I was even more impressed with the caliber−
SM (02:39:58):
Yeah. He is in that−
DU (02:39:59):
[inaudible 02:39:59] Wayne Morris and a few others [inaudible 02:40:03].
SM (02:40:02):
Yeah. [Ernest] Gruening. Yeah. Wow.
DU (02:40:08):
Morris, Gruening, Church, they were [inaudible 02:40:10] and when he ran for president in (19)76, I spent the summer volunteer working on his campaign.
SM (02:40:19):
Wow.
DU (02:40:19):
In the DC office [inaudible 02:40:21] Rhode Island and Ohio.
SM (02:40:28):
Yeah. What an experience, because I consider him a statesman. You know? Nelson was another one from that period who went against the war and, of course, Senator Church and Senator Nelson and Senator McGovern and Senator McCarthy were all ousted in 1980, also Birch Bayh in the anti-war, being against people who were in the anti-war likes. It is amazing. Anybody in the civil rights, women's movement, environmental movement stand out in your opinion? That you feel were very influential.
DU (02:41:10):
Well, because of what Martin Luther King did, the direction of my life changed, I would not be talking to you from Alabama− Civil rights came out of Alabama.
SM (02:41:24):
Right. I have got to get down there some time to see where the Montgomery bus boycott took place. How about any of the TV shows that you think were impactful? You said you did not watch TV very much.
DU (02:41:44):
Hardly.
SM (02:41:46):
How about newspaper journalists?
DU (02:41:54):
I loved Russell Baker.
SM (02:41:56):
Okay.
DU (02:41:58):
[inaudible 02:41:58] New York Times, because he was irreverent and offbeat and quietly radical.
SM (02:42:18):
Any magazines that stand out?
DU (02:42:19):
Not particularly, and I have written a few things for the Nation, so I guess I should say them.
SM (02:42:31):
How about the activists that you really looked up to?
DU (02:42:42):
[inaudible 02:42:42]. It was mostly the folks out in the trenches.
SM (02:42:53):
Not so much the big names.
DU (02:42:56):
Almost anonymous [inaudible 02:43:00] be there when you needed somebody there.
SM (02:43:06):
Right. Any scholars?
DU (02:43:25):
I paid attention to what [inaudible 02:43:27].
SM (02:43:28):
Who?
DU (02:43:30):
[inaudible 02:43:30].
SM (02:43:31):
Okay. I interviewed him for my book. I do not know if anybody in the veteran community you were linked to in any way but any veterans you admired?
DU (02:43:53):
[inaudible 02:43:53] Veterans for Peace− I consider myself a veteran of the Vietnam War, even though, I was never military. [inaudible 02:44:10] have a military−
SM (02:44:15):
You have a what?
DU (02:44:15):
[inaudible 02:44:15] military dog tag [inaudible 02:44:17] be a veteran.
SM (02:44:19):
Right. Yeah.
DU (02:44:23):
Some of those organizations, I admire.
SM (02:44:29):
You believe that those that were involved in the anti-war movement, like those who served in Vietnam were part of the Vietnam− They are Vietnam vets?
DU (02:44:40):
Yes.
SM (02:44:42):
My last question here is when the best history books are written, they are often written 50 years after an event or a period. You know, a couple years back, the best books on World War II were being written 50 years after the war. My question is basically when the last Boomer has passed away, many years from now, and there is no one around that will have experienced what it was like to live when we lived, what do you think historians, sociologists, writers are going to say about the generation that grew up after World War II or around World War II and the influence they had on America?
DU (02:45:29):
Well, the [inaudible 02:45:31] book.
SM (02:45:35):
Pardon? That would be nice.
DU (02:45:36):
Yeah. [inaudible 02:45:38] book and then you will know.
SM (02:45:41):
Yeah, because what is interesting, David, is that I want people to know the people for who they are, what they stand for, and to respect them all, because how one is raised, reared, and their life experiences are different. To understand the time, I truly believe that oral history right now is the best way to do it and so I got a long way to go but I am doing this because I have a drive within me t−
DU (02:46:15):
I can tell.
SM (02:46:16):
Yeah. It is like my work at the university. I did over 450 programs at Westchester University. I know a lot of people and those programs are not happening anymore. They are not doing any lectures, forums, debates and seminars. I am getting students emailing me saying the university is not the same anymore and it is because the finances are tough and all they want to do is party and program. There is some good quality things that faculty are doing but I did not go into higher education to just simply retire and not do anything more. My whole life is devoted to students and will continue to be so. Are there any questions that you expected me to ask you that I did not ask?
DU (02:47:13):
Well, I tried not to think about what you might ask me, because I did not want to have canned answers. I wanted [inaudible 02:47:25] the first thing that occurred to me. I did not have any expectations about what you might ask [inaudible 02:47:39] conversations are what I supposed it would be, but I had not formulated anything specific.
SM (02:47:49):
One thing is I do not know if you have a couple pictures of yourself, but I am going to need a couple pictures. I do not know if you have any recent pictures or even pictures, somebody is sending me a picture from− Caroline Cassidy is going to send me a picture of her when she was− 1970. Then a picture of her. She lives way up in Oregon, and I cannot get to Oregon. I have gone and interviewed everybody in person who lived in New York, Washington, Baltimore, I have gone up to Boston three times, going up to San Francisco, in a couple weeks just to take pictures of 14 people that I interviewed. I am not spending any time with them because I have already interviewed them but trying to coordinate that. I am going on vacation, and I am going to do it all in two days, drive around San Francisco, going from place to place, taking pictures of all these people. I have two interviews out there too. I am going to need your pictures. I am going to keep you updated because I am going to be hibernating at the end of October. My interviews end at the end of October. I have one in November and that is it. I am not doing anymore.
DU (02:49:04):
You want before and after pictures?
SM (02:49:06):
It can be before and after. It can be two pictures. It can be a current one. Whichever. You can mail it to me through the mail or on the computer. I prefer the mail because somebody sent me a computer picture from California that was terrible. I am taking a picture of him in person. Whatever. There is no rush, but I just wanted to let you know.
DU (02:49:28):
What is the mailing address?
SM (02:49:31):
My mailing address is 3323 Valley, V-A-L-L-E-Y, Drive in West Chester, and that is two words, Pennsylvania, 19382. You have my name.
DU (02:49:49):
19382?
SM (02:49:52):
Yeah. I will keep you updated. Between November 1st and probably June, I will be transcribing them all myself. Someone says, "You have got a lot of work to do." I said, "Yup. I got the equipment here." I have already done 12. It is not that bad. I have been advised not to let anybody else do them, because I have got two authors that had nothing but problems when they were transcribed by others. When I am transcribing them, it brings back all the memories. They are going to be divided into seven sections with the pictures and then what I call magic moments, that will be under each interview that I pick as magic moments. There were several that you gave me today that were unbelievable. Then the rest of it will be the interview and you will eventually see the transcript and so the next seven months, I am going to be transcribing. I have one university press that wants to do it, but I have not tried to go after any other presses, so I have made no commitments.
DU (02:50:57):
You got one for sure?
SM (02:51:01):
Yeah. One for sure, without even−I did not even send them a proposal. I talked to them at a conference. I was at a higher ed conference this summer. They knew that all the people that I had interviewed and, anyways, long story. I have not approached any major book companies and I am going to send 12 transcripts, my introduction, and then go from there.
DU (02:51:35):
Okay. [inaudible 02:51:38] picture from me. [inaudible 02:51:48].
SM (02:51:49):
Yeah. You can mail them to me− I want to get most of them before the holidays, because I want to be able to get the pictures and, so if you can think of trying to get those two to me before Christmas, that would be great.
DU (02:52:05):
Yeah. [inaudible 02:52:06] wrote to myself with your address. [inaudible 02:52:11]. If you do not get the pictures [inaudible 02:52:16].
SM (02:52:16):
Yeah. I will.
DU (02:52:16):
[inaudible 02:52:16]. Okay?
SM (02:52:16):
Yeah.
DU (02:52:17):
You have my permission [inaudible 02:52:18].
SM (02:52:17):
Okay.
DU (02:52:18):
If you come across any [inaudible 02:52:18] transcript and you want to [inaudible 02:52:33].
SM (02:52:35):
Will do.
DU (02:52:35):
Okay?
SM (02:52:36):
Yup. I am going to contact that person too that you mentioned and if there is any other people that you feel would be good people to interview, let me know.
DU (02:52:45):
Great.
SM (02:52:47):
David, you have a great day.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with David Underhill
Contributor
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Underhill, David ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Journalists; Authors, American--20th century; Political activists--United States; Underhill, David--Interviews
Description
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Underhill is a journalist, writer and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States, and was schooled mainly in eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the Harvard Crimson. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the Southern Courier, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,6710886],"15":"Arial"}">David Underhill is a journalist, writer, and activist. Underhill grew up mainly in the western United States and was schooled mainly in the eastern US. As a student at Harvard, he wrote for the <em>Harvard Crimson</em>. Underhill moved to Mobile, Alabama as a reporter for the <em>Southern Courier</em>, a newspaper founded in 1965, to cover civil rights news in the Deep South. He has held numerous positions including working on organizing and activist campaigns. Underhill has written about these events for various local and national, print and internet, publications. </span>
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-09-27
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.163a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.163b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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172:51
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/390e22186feda6338593ba30d7ddeb6d.jpg
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/43219a78fde44011d65d82098672dfae.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Deanne Stillman
Date of Interview
2010-03-21
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
83:45
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the Los Angeles Review of Books and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including Los Angeles Review of Books, New York Times, and and Tin House. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em> and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>Tin House</em>. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Timothy Leary; Rex Weiner; Woodstock; Anti-War Movement; Muslim; Socialist; Generation X; Native American; Battle of the Little Bighorn; Baby boom generation; Photographs; Kent State."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Timothy Leary; Rex Weiner; Woodstock; Anti-War Movement; Muslim; Socialist; Generation X; Native American; Battle of the Little Bighorn; Baby boom generation; Photographs; Kent State.</span>
Subject LCSH
Authors, American--20th century; Stillman, Deanne--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Deanne Stillman
Contributor
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Stillman, Deanne ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Authors, American--20th century; Stillman, Deanne--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Deanne Stillman is a critically acclaimed author. She writes the “Letter from the West” column for the <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em> and is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program. She authored several books and her work appears in many publications, including <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>Tin House</em>. Stillman is a member of the core faculty at the UC Riverside-Palm Desert MFA Low Residency Creative Writing Program.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-21
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.162
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
83:45
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Tom Pauken
Date of Interview
2009-12-21
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
109:57
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Tom Pauken is a businessman, lawyer, politician, member of the Republican Party, and the author of two books. He is a former member and chairman of the Texas Workforce Commission. Additionally, Pauken served as chairman on the Texas Republican Party and the Texas Task Force on Appraisal Reform. He received his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Georgetown University and his Juris Doctor degree from Southern Methodist University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Tom Pauken is a businessman, lawyer, politician, member of the Republican Party, and the author of two books. He is a former member and chairman of the Texas Workforce Commission. Additionally, Pauken served as chairman on the Texas Republican Party and the Texas Task Force on Appraisal Reform. He received his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Georgetown University and his Juris Doctor degree from Southern Methodist University.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"intellectual movement; Modern Conservatism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Cambodia invasion; Young Americans for Freedom; Newt Gingrich; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; Goldwater."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Intellectual movement; Modern Conservatism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Cambodia invasion; Young Americans for Freedom; Newt Gingrich; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; Goldwater.</span>
Subject LCSH
Lawyers; Politicians--United States--Texas; Republican Party (Tex.); Pauken, Tom--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tom Pauken
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Pauken, Tom ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawyers; Politicians--United States--Texas; Republican Party (Tex.); Pauken, Tom--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Tom Pauken is a businessman, lawyer, politician, member of the Republican Party, and the author of two books. He is a former member and chairman of the Texas Workforce Commission. Additionally, Pauken served as chairman on the Texas Republican Party and the Texas Task Force on Appraisal Reform. He received his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Georgetown University and his Juris Doctor degree from Southern Methodist University.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.160a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.160b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
109:57
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/865b94d1d82b207fb09a54bb74849eb2.jpg
3673e92aab85ac7422f80866fdc1c776
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/14d1edbfbc93f86fe9853a30be860be5.mp3
c38f7e1829afc127e8c6cf0b28b26324
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Toddy Puller
Date of Interview
2010-05-18
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
105:11
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Linda Todd Puller is a former Democratic member of the Virginia State Senate. Puller represented District 36 from 1999 to 2016 and served in the Virginia House of Delegates from 1992 to 2000. Before she began her political career, she married the Lewis Puller, Jr., the most decorated Marine in American history. Puller has a Bachelor's degree in Art History from Mary Washington College."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3355443],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Toddy Puller is a former Democratic member of the Virginia State Senate. Puller represented District 36 from 1999 to 2016 and served in the Virginia House of Delegates from 1992 to 2000. Before she began her political career, she married Lewis Puller, Jr., the most decorated Marine in American history. Puller has a Bachelor's degree in Art History from Mary Washington College.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women's Rights Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Gay/Lesbian Rights movement; LGBT; Anti-War Movement; Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Vietnam War; The nineteen-sixties; Lewis Burwell Puller Jr.; Veterans."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Women's Rights Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Gay/Lesbian Rights movement; LGBT; Anti-War Movement; Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Vietnam War; The nineteen-sixties; Lewis Burwell Puller Jr.; Veterans.</span>
Subject LCSH
Legislators—United States--Virginia; Democratic Party (Va.); Puller, Linda Todd--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Toddy Puller
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Puller, Linda Todd ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Legislators—United States--Virginia; Democratic Party (Va.); Puller, Linda Todd--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Linda Todd Puller is a former Democratic member of the Virginia State Senate. Puller represented District 36 from 1999 to 2016 and served in the Virginia House of Delegates from 1992 to 2000. Before she began her political career, she married Lewis Puller, Jr., the most decorated Marine in American history. Puller has a Bachelor's degree in Art History from Mary Washington College.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-05-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.159a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.159b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
105:11
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c4d6ad283d879cd2c57695386e5a9c2.jpg
5860cda47a6008db0ab4d7656d49a7bc
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7ac91c723b5a74c28b90c505f681c241.mp3
29eaf9c7e8446999500c3a3ce4fde1f2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dennis Peron
Date of Interview
2010-08-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
88:23
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"San Francisco; Bay Area; Gay Rights; Human Rights Movement; Ronald Reagan; Vietnam Memorial; Medical marijuana."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">San Francisco; Bay Area; Gay Rights; Human Rights Movement; Ronald Reagan; Vietnam Memorial; Medical marijuana.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Marijuana—Law and legislation; Gay rights; Peron, Dennis--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dennis Peron
Contributor
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Peron, Dennis ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Marijuana—Law and legislation; Gay rights; Peron, Dennis--Interviews
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Dennis Peron (1945-2018) was an activist and businessman who became a leader in the movement for the legalization of cannabis. Peron served in the Air Force in Vietnam. After the war, he became a Yippie and he also supported gay rights. He sold cannabis from storefronts in the Castro and advocated for medical cannabis. Peron also co-founded the San Francisco Cannabis Buyers Club. Additionally, he co-authored California Proposition 215 which got passed in 1996.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-08-12
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.158a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.158b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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88:23
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
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Roz B. (Roz Berkman) Payne, 1940-
Date of Interview
2010-10-05
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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144:28
Biographical Text
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Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Nineteen sixties; Activism; Student Protests; Burning of Bank of America (1970)."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Black Panthers; Nineteen sixties; Activism; Student Protests; Burning of Bank of America (1970).</span>
Subject LCSH
Newsreel (Firm); Political activists--United States; Payne, Roz B. (Roz Berkman), 1940--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Roz Payne
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 5 October 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: Alrighty.
RP: So, what do you actually teach? What class is it?
SM: Actually, I retired.
RP: Oh, okay.
SM: I left the university a year ago in March to work on this book because I could never really... I was too busy. I was the director of student programming co-curricular programs, and I was at the university six days a week, and I just had no time. I have been working out–
RP: [inaudible] At the same university?
SM: I was at the Westchester University for 22 years. Then I was at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia for four. I worked at Ohio University for four years, and then I was out in San Francisco, the Bay Area for six years. I actually was hired at Berkeley, and they froze me out after I was hired. Really frustrated me. So I ended up starting my own entertainment business out there and working all different kinds of jobs. But I had an entertainment business until I was able to come back into higher education.
RP: Entertainment.
SM: Huh?
RP: What kind of entertainment?
SM: Oh, it was basically San Francisco [inaudible].
SM: Ask my first question.
RP: Yep, go for it.
SM: Yep. Could you talk about your early experiences in your background, your growing up years, where you grew up, the influence of your parents and teachers, or any role models who inspire you to become who you are?
RP: Okay. That is a big story. So you might also, let me just say one thing. You should go to my website. Did I send it?
SM: I have read it.
RP: Because there is in the family section, some photographs from that period of time. And some of them, one of them is specifically my mother getting arrested, which describes my childhood.
SM: I saw that. I saw that.
RP: So anyway, I grew up with ... I was born in Patterson, New Jersey. Allen Ginsburg lived a block from us and our parents are friends. And he used to occasionally watch me if my mother ran to the store or something. He was a little older than I was. I do not have any memory of it. I just remember my mother talking about it. But later on when we met, he stayed at my house one night and we went through that whole history. It was really interesting. So my parents were radicals. My father, my mother came from Poland, and she began working in the textile mills in Lawrence, Massachusetts. And she was very active in unions, and she was one of the leaders. What happened is a lot of textile unions in New Jersey, in Lawrence, and usually one would go out and strike, then everybody would go to another mill and get a job because they needed money and they never could have a general strike. Well, she helped organize a very large general strike with some other people. And I have pictures of her getting arrested from that, which are also my website, which I found in old newspapers and stuff. And my father also was a radical. He and his friend Nick San Tangelo, my father was Italian. My mother was Polish Jewish. And my father's whole family, parents came from Italy in the mountains, close to maybe two hours from Naples. I went and visited there once. And there's a church at the top of the hill in the village that says, "In honor of General Lismo Christiano." Christiano was my maiden name who helped Napoleon. And that is why everybody there has blue eyes.
SM: Oh, wow.
RP: So, my father was a radical in New Jersey. My mother was a radical, in Lawrence, Mass. And my mother spent about two years in jail from getting arrested. And they held her for deportation because she was born in Poland and had never gotten her citizenship papers. So, they tried to return her to Poland, but it did not work out because the borders changed in those days. Where she came from was not exactly in the right place or something like that. And then eventually my mother moved when she got out. She went to a hiking nature club overnight place in New Jersey where she met my father. It was called The Nature Friends. And the Nature Friends came out of Germany, and it was a place for people, workers mainly, not rich people that had country homes. But workers could go and they would have big lodges and communal kitchens, and it would be a place for workers to be able to enjoy nature. And they met there, and there was a pond there. I have pictures of myself when I was a little kid in the pond in the buildings. I actually went back and visited, and it still exists, by the way. When I went up to the Matterhorn a number of years ago, they have a sign with the N and the F, the F coming out of the back part of the N. And they have clubhouses all over the world. But I kept up my membership all these years so you can go. And Hitler put them on the undesirable list and was going to kill everybody because they were socialists basically.
SM: Wow.
RP: So that is what I grew up with. I grew up and my parents moved at some point. Well, we were in Patterson and all my father's family still remained in New Jersey. He was the only, he was the rebel and he left. My mother's family was in LA, so when I was four, they went across country and they went to live in LA. And I went to LA High School, I went to grammar school there. I went to LA High School, I went to UCLA. I went a year before UCLA to Santa Barbara. I did not exactly like it, particularly. I liked UCLA. And I graduated from UCLA in (19)62. And I was going to be an art teacher. I wanted to do art. And let us see what happened? Oh, my high school boyfriend remained to be my college boyfriend. And right after I graduated, we got married. His name was Arnold Payne. And he was a year ahead of me and he was going to Columbia University for graduate school. And so we got married and I moved. I went out to New York to live in New York with him. And let us see. My early days of political activity, by the way, since my mother was ... All those years that I grew up, my mother was held for deportation. And they had a big problem in trying to deport her after that. She was held in jail for that long time in Lawrence. They tried to deport her, but somehow the borders got changed between Poland and other countries and the papers were not ... They could not do it. There's some technological reason, and I cannot remember now what that reason was. And so she was held while I was growing up for deportation. So during my entire growing up, probably every three or four months, the FBI would come to my door and knock on the door. My mother had instructed me, just call her, close the door and do not let them in and call her. And then she would go outside and talk to them. And so, we were... Go outside and talk to them. And so, we were always going to these radical parties growing up, of the Hollywood Ten people and-and a lot of radical lawyers. People would bring my parents new political newspapers in brown paper bags. And I went to special schools at times or camps where with a lot of the Hollywood Ten kids. So, it was like people that I did not have to hide anything. The kids that I went to, like LA High school and stuff, I never talked about my political part, of that part of my life with them. And I learned not to cross picket lines. There was a group that sold, it was called Pep Boys, Manny, Moe and Jack was the name of this place that sold car repair material.
SM: They are all over the country today.
RP: Yeah. It was a big chain. There was a strike there and we were never allowed to go into that store. I remember things like that that happened. And my parents were not religious. My father grew up Italian Catholic. My mother grew up Jewish Polish. And so we would go to my mother's family for the Jewish holidays and eat and celebrate them. And then we always had a Christmas tree. We always had a lot of parties and lots of people in the house, in and out. And I used to take off for Jewish holidays. I would go to school the first day and then take off a second day to hang out with my friends or something. Right. It was like we were never religious, but I made use of the holidays so I did not have to go to school.
SM:
Was that experience of growing up in the (19)50s there and you saw what was going on with the Hollywood Ten, you saw what happened in Germany. Was there anything of those experiences growing up as a kid that got you interested in civil rights? One of the things that I have asked many people in the interview process, many of them were red diaper babies and they said their parents were communists because of the fact that the Communist party was the only one that showed any kind of empathy toward people of color, particularly African American.
RP: Might be true. But also my mother especially was very strong about people of color. And for example, when Emmett Till got killed, I was 13 at the time, I believe, and there was a memorial service in downtown Los Angeles. My mother took me to it. We were the only white people. It was in a very old building with a lot of balconies. I remember going up, we were sitting in the very top part and we were the only white people in the entire building that I remember. My mother had black friends and I had black friends and I had Japanese friends. I had a Japanese friend in grammar school who had been sent away to one of those internment camps where they put all the Japanese in the desert. She was there for a while.
SM: Internment camps, yeah.
RP: Yeah. Linda Fukuyama. And also, by the way, I just read a book summer, my Italian relatives have a house in Acapulco for the winter they use. And I went down there and somebody had left this book about Italian internment camps. Did you ever hear that?
SM: No.
RP: Oh my God, you should see how many there were. When you went down to the wharf in San Francisco, the first people they picked up were the fishermen who had the boats in San Francisco. They picked them up first and then they picked up a lot of these truck farmers, Italians. What an incredible story about these guys.
SM:
What year was that?
RP: It was the same time, it was the Japanese were being picked up and the Italians were being picked up.
SM: Oh my gosh.
RP: My cousin gave me ... My cousins that are there, they're not political at all, but so many thought they would enjoy reading the book because it was Italian and neither of them really read it. My cousin's wife read it a little bit, so I could not believe it when I read it.
SM: That had to do with Mussolini probably and the fascism and all that other stuff going on.
RP: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
SM: How did you become interested in civil rights even before you could [inaudible].
RP: I got brainwashed into it.
SM: Connection with a-
RP: My parent, all my life I heard about the Scottsboro boys. For example, there's a left wing, I do not know if it's communist, I do not know what kind of magazine it was that my mother had a copy of, that had a story about the Scottsboro boys. And it all had a story about when she got arrested. And it's the same time. So, my mother also had black friends. I mean, LA is a pretty integrated neighborhood. We lived in a white neighborhood, but my mother had a few black friends and my high school had black students in it because LA High School, if you went to the south, it was very interesting. From the high school, if you went south, it was a Mexican and black neighborhood. You went east, it was a Japanese neighborhood. If you went north they're gigantic white mansions. And there was one black person that lived there, Nat King Cole. There were private streets with guards at houses at different streets, so you could not go in there, gigantic mansions. I had some friends that lived there. And then if you went west, it was mixed up, a lot of Jewish neighborhoods and white and working class and more until it got further west, then it got to be fancier again. Where I happened to live was a very integrated school. And so I just grew up having black friends and Japanese friends. It's how the neighborhood was.
SM: When you look at those early, late (19)50s and early (19)60s, even before the Black Panthers or even a thought, I just want to list these things and whether you personally or your parents or your family were linked to any of these. Let me list them first and then you can comment.
RP: Okay.
SM: And of course, the civil rights movement that was real strong in the (19)50s, Dr. King's Montgomery bus boycott, the I Have a Dream speech in Washington. We all know what happened with the lunch counters and down south, Freedom Summer of (19)64 when so many of the students-
RP: Do I need to interrupt you or let you go through all of those?
SM: Yeah, I am going to go through them and then the Chaney, Schwerner, Goodman situation, the church bombing of the little girls, Emmett Till, James Meredith's march. And of course, groups like SNCC, NAACP, CORE, the Urban League and the race riots that were all like Watson (19)64. Any thoughts on any of those?
RP: Oh, I have a lot of thoughts because I know all ... It's a mixed bag because I grew up knowing about all of that because my parents got radical newspapers and magazines, you got to understand they were often brought in in shopping bags. But for example, when the Scottsboro boys got arrested, in the same issue of this communist magazine, I cannot think of the name, maybe it was not communist, but it was definitely a left-wing magazine, was an article my mother being in jail, being held for her strike activities in Lawrence. And the Scottsboro boys were also in that issue. So for me, that was part of my history. You named so many. I was going to tell you specific stories that happened around some of them, and I cannot remember.
SM: Well, why do not I just, the first one, Dr. King and the Montgomery bus boycott.
RP: Okay. I just thought of what the one I was going to tell you. So, 1962, I got married, I think it was (19)62. And after my wedding, a bunch of people, and in fact, one of my bridesmaids was going on one of the freedom rides, and she actually went to North Carolina, I think it was. And this guy, Joe Gerbracht, who's now a lawyer in California, went to see, he was not going, he was not that radical, but he got really drunk at my wedding and he went to say goodbye to a bunch of people on the bus. And he went on the bus and passed out and woke up, he was on his way to Mississippi.
SM: Oh my gosh.
RP: So that happened. Both of those two things happened. And just recently, my friend Carol, who kept a scrapbook of everything that happened when she went, she actually went to North Carolina or South Carolina, I cannot remember, one of them, during those Freedom Rides. And she's now very ill. But I visited her in the hospital and with her husband there about four or five months ago, and he gave me her whole scrapbook of that period of time. It included all of her photographs and leaflets and things about do not go out at night or you will be hung, posters that were put up and all this stuff. So, I grew up with, that was part of my day-to-day normal stuff somehow. And of course, it was very moving, the whole civil rights period, and I did not do it. Why did not I do it? I almost did it. I almost got on that bus, but I went to see Mrs. Clark, my stupid, I am not saying stupid, my counselor at LA High School. It was my last year, and I told her I was thinking of doing it and I wanted her advice. And she said, "Well, if you do, you may never be able to teach."
SM: Oh, it was a threat then, early.
RP: Yeah.
SM: Oh my God. Because as we get later into the interview, we talk about the importance of Newsreel and what you did there, but how did the media's coverage of these things that I just mentioned, all these events in the late (19)50s. How did the-
RP: How did they cover?
SM: How did the media-
RP: You got to understand that I had beyond the media we got delivered to the house, the LA Times, and we got the local paper, the Pico Post, and the small little for community stuff. But my parents had, because my mother's was held for deportation, she was always scared they're going to kick her out of the US, that her friends would come to her house with brown grocery bags and inside would be the People's Work World, which was the communist newspaper. We had all that reading material in our house, but it was brought in, not by my parents, but by her friends who had visited in brown paper bags. My parents died, they had the most incredible intensive bookshelves filled with books, radical, every book you can imagine from that period of time, radical.
SM: Do you have those in archives now?
RP: I definitely still have them.
SM: Good.
RP: They're in my bookshelves now. I do not read them, but they're there.
SM: Yeah. Well, what was your thoughts on looking at television back in the (19)50s, that black and white TV and early (19)60s when President Kennedy came in (19)61, what was your thought on the media's coverage of these early events in the Civil Rights movement? They would list them on the evening news and you would see them in the paper. But was that in any way inspiring you to do something more, something more daring, more educational, more revealing?
RP: Well, I was always thought that I was doing daring things. We did support things. We did not have big demonstrations in LA around civil rights that I can remember. But I watched it with in great interest, let me say that. Whatever TV had on, I watched TV all the time. My parents always had the news on, always had the news. 6:00 news it would be on. And then I cannot remember, we ate dinner before 6:00, so we would have to be done by 6:00, or we ate after the news. But I grew up with that. And not only that, but I grew up with all of my parents' radical friends, because my parents are great entertainers. Coming to the house for eating big dinners and arguing you could not imagine and discussing. I did not pay too much attention at times about all the political things happening. When the Rosenbergs were being executed, what year was that? Do you know?
SM: That was in 19 ... Was that (19)54?
RP: I do not know, but I am not-
SM: Think it was around that time at the McCarthy hearings, it was in that timeframe.
RP: Oh, it was? Well, I would rush home from school and watch the McCarthy hearings. My Uncle Norman bought us our first TV very early, and my mother would be there watching. And as soon as I got home, I would be watching the McCarthy hearings. And because some of my friends' fathers who were in the Hollywood movie industry would be testifying sometimes. And I remember Bill Jericho's father was one of them. And so we watched the news. My parents did news all the time, and I watched the hearings and there was one more thing I was going to tell you before I thought of the TV ... I lost my train of thought.
SM: Magazines, or...
RP: Well, we had all the radical magazines in the house. We did not have any garden magazines or anything like that. I do not know why, we did not have that kind of magazine.
SM: Better Home and Gardens, that kind of stuff.
RP: No, none of that was in there. But we did have the LA Times on Sunday. My parents had the commie newspaper People's World. There were ... what other magazines were there?
SM: Well, there was Nation that was very popular.
RP: Oh, we did not have Nation. And big arguments, my parents and their friends on all sorts of political things, which I never paid attention to the arguments. Maybe they were just discussions, I do not know. But that did not interest me in my younger years.
SM: A quote that really stood out in some of the literature I read on you was that you have been quoted as saying that you used to look out when you lived in New York City near the [inaudible]
RP: Out the window?
SM: Out the window.
RP: Watch the sun setting over in New York and wish I was there?
SM: Yeah, that fire. And then the fire from the [inaudible].
RP: What it was, I was living in the New Jersey... This is later I got married. My husband was at Columbia University getting a PhD and he was working at the New York Times in the morgue. The morgue, you know what the morgue is, the newspaper?
SM: You mean the obituary columns?
RP: No, the morgue in newspaper is where they clip all the newspapers. They get all the stories and they file them. So, they have a back load of everything that is ever been written.
SM: Oh, okay.
RP: And that is called the morgue. So we lived in New Jersey. It was about the bus stopped on the corner of our street, and it was about a 15-minute ride to get into 40s, where the bus terminal was, in 42nd Street. And we had found that place because somebody else was a group of four or five little cottages going down on the Palisades overlooking the Hudson River. And it was gorgeous. And as the sunset to my east to the back of me, it would hit all the windows of all the buildings in New York, and it would turn them red on a sunset night. And so that is what I was looking at. And I would look at them and wish that I was there. Is that what I said?
SM: You said, well then you said it was the inspiration that ignited you because you said-
RP: Invited me to go to New York to get involved.
SM: No, you said the GI Zippo lighter on the-
RP: Oh, on the TV, I saw that.
SM: Yeah. And it helped-
RP: Oh yeah, I remember what that was. Okay. That is not nothing about the New York thing. This what really got me totally upset was this GI was in a little village in Vietnam, and the people were in these little straw houses. And first one guy goes and takes this knife and starts cutting open their bags of rice and dumping it on the ground. That was the first thing. That was really upsetting to me. And then this other guy who takes out his Zippo and he lights one of their huts on fire. And that was real. That really incensed me. And it did that somebody would, these poor people had nothing. And there were these just mainly women holding these naked kids in their arms and everybody's crying and screaming, and these guys are doing it. And that is what really ignited me to get really involved in the peace movement, antiwar movement.
SM: When you were a kid at a young adult, did you take pictures and film things when you were real young, before you even knew about Newsreel? Were there-
RP: No. Well, when Newsreel started, I went to the first Newsreel meeting. That happened in 1967 in New York. Well, I had my brownie camera. I took pictures when I went to camp of my friends or a deer or a tree or something, what normal kids would take pictures of. But my father, I will tell you about my father. My father and I never realized this at the time, had a darkroom in our house. We had this small room that had a single bed in it that a guest would sometimes stay there. And this is not my first house, this is towards the end. We lived in a few different places, but it was a little room. And it had the person who used to have that house turned it into a darkroom also. And it had a sink there. And my father had a lot of dark darkroom equipment and he used to take photos and he would develop them there. So that is what happened. And his photos, I have a scrapbook of a lot of his stuff, but they're just like family pictures, what you take of your family kind of, and mountains and stuff like that. But in my bathroom, I have got a beautiful, very large picture he took of a yucca. Do you know what yucca is?
SM: A yucca.
RP: A plant. There's a big white flower on top.
SM: That is the one out in Arizona, or...
RP: Oh, it could be any place. They grow in a lot of places. And he developed and it is just a gorgeous, gorgeous, and he had not colored some of the prints.
SM: And who knows, maybe subconsciously, that is how you really got interested in photography.
RP: My parents always had, I always had cameras. I always had the cheap little brownie type cameras. And wherever we went, if we went to Yosemite, my parents were into nature. We always went camping overnight. There were certain beaches not far from where we lived that you could put up your tent. My parents liked camping. So we put up our tent at the beach with other people, other families, and my father would take pictures. I have pictures of all this stuff. Then we would go to Yosemite and we would camp. Every year we would go to Yosemite and my father would take pictures. And by the way, I had some pine cones. But the main thing is my father belonged to this, I told you earlier, this group called The Nature Friends, that was on the Nazi list as being a socialist. Hitler hated these people and arrested and killed a lot of them. The group started out of Germany, but it spread to Switzerland and Austria and United States. And that is where my parents met, hiking at the one in Midvale, New Jersey. And I still go, by the way, I kept my membership up all these years. I pay my dues every year.
SM: You do not even understand that if you know anything about Hitler, was not he really into staying fit, and the perfect male, or whatever it was there?
RP: That is what all these guys look like in the pictures. They're wearing those little shorts, like Switzerland. But there's a place that is in San Jacinto, the mountain right above next to Palm Springs. My father helped build that cabin there. And as you go through it, a park, a national forest park, and there's a place where you can park your car and then you hike up about, you have to bring all your stuff. You hike up about, well, I do not know, probably a seven-minute walk. And on the top, they built this unbelievable, gorgeous cabin that looks like something out of the German or Swiss Alps. It's all stone on the bottom and then wood on the top and a big sleeping room inside and sleeping porch. Those Germans are so bright. Two miles away, there's water. This is big mountains. The pine cones are two feet big. And they piped in water two miles away, going up and down hills and by gravity fed somehow. And then they built this metal three layer box of frame with burlap over it and with a hose on the top of it. And the water then sprinkles out the top by the pressure coming down. And what's the burlap? And it drips down and the box is made out of mesh wire so animals cannot get into it to eat your food. And it keeps it cool. You're can have cold beer there. And so, they did all this stuff. I have a few films, I did not make them, but I found them in my discovery of trying to do research on this group, and I found films of them building this place. So, I have been around film stuff. We were extras in movies. I cannot even remember what movies. But when they needed audience, somebody sit in the audience or something. Growing up, that Hollywood thing was kind of important to me, living close to it.
SM: Oh, you were not audience for Howdy Doody, were you?
RP: No, but I was in the audience for, there was an Abbott and Costello show.
SM: Oh yeah. And that Art Linkletter had his show too.
RP: Do not know that. But I knew Abbott and Costello. Do you remember those names?
SM: Oh yeah, I remember them well.
RP: Yeah. Well, Abbott and Costello, one of them was born in Patterson, New Jersey, where I am from.
SM: Oh, my golly.
RP: So that was my connection to that.
SM: At your school, what kids or what people did you know that were from Hollywood?
RP: From Hollywood?
SM: Yeah.
RP: Well, it was not really from my school because my school was not in the Hollywood area, but I knew my parents from being radicals. We knew all the commie writers that got blacklisted, like Bill Jericho's kids. And I knew, I am trying to think of the name.
SM: I know there was a movie out on one of them. I forget his name now, the producer. There's a movie out on them a year ago, I remember. And for Zero Mostel was in that group as well.
RP: I will tell you, my parents were not in that group particularly. But we had friends that were in it. And we had individual friends because my parents were, first of all, my parents were workers. And that group was more, but my parents were intellectuals. Got to understand. We had lots of books and did all this stuff. They were still working class. That group was upper middle class or upper class, but from the industry. And they did not mingle that much with working class. Plus, my mother was Jewish and my father was Italian, and most of them were Jewish, I think.
SM: Can you explain how Newsreel began, where and when and-
RP: Exactly. Here is what happened.
SM: Explain how the Boomer generation involvement, why did it start and who were the early people?
RP: So '19, my husband and I broke up. I had friends in New York and I went to look for an apartment in New York, I wanted to move to New York. And I just looked at this apartment on 15th Street, fifth floor walkup. And I looked at it, and when I walked in, the guy says, "I am leaving right now. I am going to France. I got to catch a plane in two hours." And the apartment was filled with stuff, all over the place. And he says, "Here's the keys. If you want to take it, it's not my apartment. The guy whose actually apartment is-is already there. We're going to go work on a film with" ... Do not remember now, but some famous Italian filmmaker. And that is it. "I got to leave, I got a plane to catch." So I looked around and there was a Leica camera lying on the bed or a dresser, and there's a lot of money in change in someplace else. And he was gone. So I took the camera, put it on my shoulder. I decided I did not want that apartment. Fifth floor walkup, forget it, it was too much to walk up. And I walked out and I am walking down the street and I bumped into this guy, Marvin, who I am still friends with, and actually lives here. And Marvin says, "Oh, I am on my way to this film meeting, it's the first meeting of a group of people. And it's down on ..." We were walking down Second Avenue and 14th Street by this time. And do you know New York?
SM: Yes, I do.
RP: Okay. So I was at 15th near Second. Between First and Second, no, between Second and ... Anyway, it does not make a difference. It was a one block over. And I was walking down with Marvin. And all of a sudden this wild guy comes running up with us to us. And he said, "Oh my God, I am so glad to bump into you." And he sees my camera. He says, "Oh, good. You're a photographer. Well, I got to tell you, this is the first meeting right now that is happening. Immediately you have got to go to, of all these radical filmmakers. It's happening in this loft." And he told us, he says, "I am going there right now. Just follow me and da da da da da." It was Melvin Margolis, who is in our film group. He's in a lot of our films. And he was a great organizer. And he filmed some of the great shots in the Columbia University takeover film. When the black students kicked all the whites ... Do you know that film at all?
SM: No, I do not know the film, but I know all about it because I had friends that went there.
RP: Okay. Well, the black students took over the president's office and then kicked all the white students out at some point. And we filmed it, by the way. And Melvin, this guy that who ran up to me in the street, that said, "You got to go to this meeting, the blacks kicked all the whites out of that building." And he convinced them that is the most important thing that they were doing that has ever happened, and he has got to stay to film it. And they let him stay. He was the only white person that was allowed to stay in that building. So he filmed them soaping, putting liquid soap on all the stairs. Because there's a tunnel the cops are going to make come through the basement and come up the stairs, so they would slip on the soapy stairs. And he filmed all the notes on the blackboard about so-and-so's mother called and blah, blah. He was great. He was a really great wild man. He's dead now. He died of cancer some years ago. But anyway, so he led us to this meeting, his first meeting. And that was the first gathering of, I walked into this room. It was a basement, and it could have been either Bill Jersey or ... It was somebody else's loft. I cannot think of his name. Maybe it was not even a loft. It was in the basement. Very dark. And I looked around and they were all these really interesting people. And I said, "Oh my God, this looks like my gang of people that I want or hang out with." And I sat down and that was the first Newsroom meeting So that is how it happened. And then I kept going to the other meetings, and I finally found an apartment to rent on 15th Street. And I had friends, this old couple who lived on the second floor, and mine was on the fourth floor, I think. It was a one bedroom, a living room, a kitchen kind of dining area. And then there was a little alcove that you could put another bed in. So at times, somebody in Newsreel always needed a place to stay. So I would let them stay there. And it was a great building. I wish I did not give it up. We won it in a rent strike against the guy who owned it, and I would have owned it now.
SM: How did you finance all this? In the very early-
RP: I immediately, we rented a newsreel, rented an office on Seventh Avenue in the Garment District, and they needed somebody to run the office. And somebody, I think maybe Robert Kramer, somebody asked if I wanted to work in the office, because I was not working. In New Jersey I was teaching school, public school, by the way, and I began hating it. It was elementary school and I hated it. And there miniskirts were getting fashionable. I came to school in a miniskirt, and the principal sent me home one day and I said, "That is it. I am out of here." So I quit teaching and that is when I moved to New York to look for this place. I needed a job, and so they hired me at $65 a week to open. I went and there was another woman that got hired, the two of us. We would go in the morning, we would go at, I do not know, 8:00, 9:00 or whatever time, and unlock, walk up the two flights of stairs, or maybe we were on the second floor, Seventh Avenue and 18th Street, I think it was. Or 27th Street or something. It was in the garment area. That is all I can remember. Because people were pushing those things of clothing. And we would open it up and we would open the mail and then Newsroom people would start coming in. People are making films. Somebody would start bringing equipment in a movie and start editing something or somebody. We began just making films, immediately. Just people who had had equipment began sharing their equipment, and people who had money began paying the rent and paying for labs. And it was a very diverse group of people.
SM: When you did that first one, the Columbia protests, how would you find out about it and how would you get access to-
RP: Oh, that was really simple. So here we are. I come from New Jersey with my little red Volkswagen that I had when I taught school. And my husband and I had broken up and I kept the car. So, I am living on 17th Street, the place I just described to you. So, I am there and all of a sudden, the same guy that I told you when I was walking down the street with Marvin and this guy walked up to us and said, "Hey, there is this first Newsreel meeting happening," he told Marvin and I. Marvin calls me up, he says, "Roz, Columbia's just been taken over. I just heard about it. Get your car down here and pick me up and the cameras and we will go up there."
SM: Wow.
RP: So, I drove down, he loaded up cameras and film and stuff, and we drove up and parked the car there, and I never left during the protests. It was so much fun. It was one of the most fun things I have ever done.
SM: Were you a little fearful though, that you were getting involved in a situation that-
RP: I am never fearful like that.
SM: Did they force you out too, along with the students when they took over, or the police or whatever?
RP: Well, okay. Did you see the film?
SM: I have not seen the film, no. But I know.
RP: You should look at some of the film, will tell you so much. We will talk about that later. But what happened was, first one building was taken, then another, and then before you know it, the math building was taken in, all the math teachers were on strike. And then Margaret Meade at the anthropology building, and it was thousands. We were the majority, I never get scared of things like that. Things like that never bothered me. And I also always felt that I was safe because I was not one of them. I was documenting it. I was a filmmaker... documenting it. I was a filmmaker, so my camera kept me safe. I always felt that way. That is not necessarily true, but that is what I felt.
SM:
Did you film the... Again, I have not seen it, but I know the scene, the historic scene of the students in the President's office.
RP: No, I did not film that, but you know who filmed it? Melvin.
SM: Oh my God.
RP: This is what happened. The Black students... Everybody took over the place, and Melvin was there, and he was filming it. And there were a few other, maybe another neutral person, and they opened up his cognac or his wine. And they began going through all of his files and his girly magazines. But finally, they asked all the white... The Blacks asked all the whites to leave and go take over other buildings. Everybody left except Melvin, who convinced them he had to film what they were doing because it's the most important thing. So, they allowed Melvin to stay in that building. And he filmed them soaping the stairs, this liquid soap stuff they had, and they put it down... There was a tunnel that led from another building, underground, into that building. So they thought the cops are going to come through this tunnel, so then the steps would be all slippery and slimy from the liquid soap. And we have all that on film, in our Columbia film. It is all there.
SM: Of course, I am going to just briefly mention some of your other films here. But the Chicago (19)68, you were there and you covered that as well with photography and with film. I would say that must have been a scary situation too.
RP: I was scared once in a while there. I will tell you, it is not like I am not ever not scared. I feel pretty good, actually, with a camera. I always feel like it's protection, but I have been hitting the head with a tear gas grenade in Washington, D.C. at a demonstration once. And that was really scary. And I immediately ran... It did not hit me hard. It came across the side of my head, but Robert Kramer had already left. He ran fast. As soon as he saw them, he got out of there and left me and this other guy there. And the other guy and I ran around for a while, and we have some great shots from that. And then we left.
SM: What stands out from that experience?
RP: Which one?
SM: Chicago (19)68. Is there any scenes? Or just [inaudible]-
RP: If you saw the films that I made, my photographs... Well, the first thing was, I went there with a group of people. Newsreel had three different groups that were making three different films on Chicago. My group was going to find some young, innocent people who get involved and then all of a sudden the cops are going to be... There's going to be all this stuff. They get disillusioned, and they're going to get beaten up and stuff. Well, we found our couple... And the next day, we lost them in the crowd. We never could find them again. And then we were on our own, and we just began filming. And I hung out a lot in Lincoln Park, which was one of the staging grounds for stuff. And that is where a lot of these Chicago young bikers hung out. I think they were called the head hunters. And there's this one kid, I think his jacket said banana on it. And we did some long interviews with them. And it was interesting to talk to alternative types of people that were in Chicago that were not the political, not the Rennie Davises, not the FBS. I hung out at night a lot in the movement center, the FBS Movement Center. And that is where everybody got together and talked about strategy, and we filmed all this, by the way. This is in our film. You got to look. You got to look at some of our films. Do you have a video machine?
SM: Yes, I do.
RP: Okay. Because it is hard to explain all this stuff because it is so intense. But it was really scary... Sometimes it was really scary, and sometimes it was just absolutely fun. Because I had my gang of people. I had two gangs. I had Newsreel... There were a lot of Newsreel people. My best friend Jane is too scared. She does not like to be out when there's cops and all that fighting, but she was very important. She stayed near a phone in somebody's apartment, and she manned the phones. So, whatever anybody needed, or if somebody got in trouble, or somebody got busted or something, she was there to take down all the information, and make the contacts, and everything. And at the end... I never get arrested, by the way. My mother always told me, "Do not get arrested." Because my mother got arrested and spent time in jail for her union organizing. She said, "It's a waste of time. It drains you. It is a waste of time." She says, "Just escape. Try to escape." And I always followed her advice, and I always got out of there really fast if I thought I was going to be busted. My friend Jane, who is still by the way, my best friend. I speak to her every day. She lives up here, not far from me. She did not go out the streets at all. She was at the phones in case somebody had trouble. And going home from Chicago, the cops stopped her car. And why? Because she had Tom Hayden and some other people in her car.
SM: Oh, no.
RP: Because Tom is a really good friend of ours. And so, the cops were probably looking at him and watching him. Saw him get in the car, stopped the car... And inside her car, somebody had hidden under the seat these little balls that had nails in them that you stick under the tires of the cops as they move forward, which she did not do. She never would do anything like that. She's very proper, wealthy girl who would not do anything like that. So, she got arrested. I do not know. You just never know.
SM: The other one that really fascinates me is the 1967 protest at the Pentagon.
RP: Oh, yeah. See, that was the scariest one. I was so frightened at that one.
SM: Yeah, because there was a march all the way across the bridge, I believe. And then they walked up to the Pentagon? Is that what-
RP: Well, what happened was we were at the... Where were we? At the Reflecting Pool? Or someplace... Where Dave Dellinger and the usual gave the speeches, and then there was a march. We filmed all this, by the way. And then we marched... Maybe we went across a little bridge. I remember a bridge, but I cannot remember that. But then I remember, somebody cut through some field. And we went up this hill, and it led us right to the Pentagon.
SM: Oh, wow.
RP: And that was scary. That was really scary. See, I never sit down in demonstrations. I am taking pictures. I am not going to be one that sits there and let us cops come and hit me on the head. That is scary for me. So people sat down. And the marshals, not even the cops, it's the marshals that were just violent. The marshals went after people and people would not get up. They had their arms locked, and they would just bang them with these long wooden police sticks that they had. And there was tear gas, and a lot of people had bloodied heads.
SM: I think there were 100,000 people at that.
RP: Yeah, they were little old ladies and all sorts of stuff. I have got thousands of photographs.
SM: That is the one where that picture of the guy with the flower in his gun... I think that came from there.
RP: Yeah, it did. Exactly.
SM: That one of your pictures, or?
RP: You know what? I do not know which ones you're talking about exactly. I remember a picture with... The kid had put a flower in the end of the gun.
SM: When I look at all these, you were... Boy, it's amazing the things that you covered, beginning with Chicago. I saw the entire list, but up against the Wall, the Miss America. You did-
RP: That was great. That was really my most fun thing. We got on a bus in New York, and there was this great Black woman, one of the very first Black women lawyers who's now dead, but she got on our bus with us. And I was always a fan of hers. She's very radical. And we went down to, where was it? Asbury Park, or? I am trying to think where it happened.
SM: Atlantic City?
RP: Where?
SM: Was it Atlantic City?
RP: Yeah, Atlantic City. And it was a group of women... I went as a photographer. You got to understand, I was not the organizer of this event. But Beverly Grant, who worked in the office with me in Newsreel, she is a member of Newsreel, was also part of the group that organized this. So her part of this was to go inside. They got tickets and a certain time. They had stink bombs, whatever that means. It's something that you... There's ammonia, and it smells like ammonia, and they were going to let them go inside where the pageant was being held. And the person with Beverly got arrested immediately for some reason. Maybe they saw her doing it. And Beverly did take some photographs, and I was outside the entire time. And I, basically, was taking photographs outside. And they brought a sheep, and they began comparing Miss America to the sheep. And we made a short little... Maybe 15-minute film about that event.
SM: The other one that I really have to see is Bess Myerson speaking at the Women's-
RP: Another Mother for Peace.
SM: When I saw the that on the list, I went immediately to-
RP: That was not a Newsreel film. That was a film that we found, somebody gave us. And I just kept a copy. I made Bess Myerson a copy for it. She found out about it. I made her a print of it.
SM: My golly. Well, I got to definitely see that, because I would have never thought that-
RP: But all she did was... It was the Beverly Hills Women's Group, Another Mother for Peace, a luncheon in a fancy hotel. She gave this great speech.
SM: Well, you covered all these major things. You were up at Harvard dealing with the ROTC. You were-
RP: It was not all me. It was my group.
SM: Yeah, it was your group, but-
RP: So, I did not... The group, various people did various things. I am not going to take credit for doing all those things.
SM: The Earth Belongs to the People was another one.
RP: First ecology film, that was the very first ecology film ever made.
SM: 79 Springs of Ho Chi Minh.
RP: That, by the way, was made by Santiago Álvarez, a great Cuban filmmaker. We distributed it.
SM: Troublemakers was one. Yippie, you did a short one-
RP: Oh, Yippie has a lot of footage... It's a spoof on the Chicago convention, and it is hilarious. Daley got scared that the Yippies were going to put LSD in the Lake, park. And so Abbey Hoffman and a few other people worked on that film. I did a little work on it with this guy, Bill Jersey, in his studio. Was not a Newsreel film, but it should have been because it's one of our more popular films. And that shows them in a... Keystone cops, 1930s car. And they're all dressed up like cops. And they have their big billy clubs out, and they're hitting the water to try to get rid of the LSD in it.
SM: My gosh.
RP: It is hilarious.
SM: Yeah. And another thing too is, this is an area which I have not been able to get a whole lot of information on, is the Young Lord's film and the Puerto Rican-
RP: That was my favorite group.
SM: And the Puerto Ricans-
RP: In Newsreel, we had different groups that you hung out with. I am still friends with these Young Lords, by the way. Do you ever watch Amy Goodman on PBS?
SM: Yes, I have.
RP: On Democracy Now! It's Amy Goodman and Juan González.
SM: Yes.
RP: He was one of the leaders, he was actually my boyfriend at that time, of the Young Lords.
SM: Well, that is the one area that I have not been able to get anybody to talk about. I emailed a couple scholars, and they did not respond.
RP: The Young Lords?
SM: Somebody who teaches at different universities, to talk about the Puerto Rican movement, the Young Lords, that actually followed the Black Panthers in many respects.
RP: That is right. And they took their berets, the Black Berets. And they were very much like the Panthers. And we made this great film because they did a takeover of a church in the Puerto Rican community in New York that was never used. Only on Sundays was it used, and the people had already moved out of that community because they went to nicer communities. Because that community was... Gotten really trashed and was really poor. And it's on the edge of Harlem. And so, they demanded that the church be able to be used for a free breakfast program. And the minister would not let them do that, so they ended up taking over the church.
SM: If you have any contacts from the Young Lords, I would love to talk to them because I would like to-
RP: Juan González.
SM: Would he ever speak to me though?
RP: Why would not he?
SM: Well, he is a TV personality.
RP: Oh, I do not know. I have got another guy who is really good. His name is Mickey Melendez.
SM: N-I-K-K-I?
RP: Friend. He and I are... Well, Juan was my boyfriend actually at one point. So, I do not know. Maybe he would speak to you, maybe he would not. What do I know? Because I am not really good friends. He is very quiet and shy, and I do not see him very much. But Mickey Melendez was very important in that takeover. And he lives in... I have his phone number. I will give you his phone number. And you can use my name if you want. If you want me to, [inaudible]-
SM: Can you email that to me?
RP: Let me just give it to you right now.
SM: Okay, let me-
RP: You have a pen?
SM: Yep.
RP: Give me a minute. I am just going to pull it up. I am pulling it up on my cell phone. Mickey... Mickey, come on. M-I-C-K... Why do not I have it here? Oh, here it is. It's is easier for me to do this, like this, right now. Because if you ask me to do something later, I may not do it. Are you ready?
SM: Yep.
RP: 646-251-7745. So tell him what you're doing. You're writing this book. Is that what you're doing?
SM: Yes.
RP: And just who you are, and that I gave you his phone number.
SM: And his name is Mickey Melendez?
RP: Melendez. And he is very important in the Young Lords. He plays a big part in the takeover of the church. The other thing the Young Lords did was they... We had a bunch of radical doctors, who I actually just saw them, one of them, this guy Michael. And Lincoln Hospital, which is in the Bronx, where all the Puerto Ricans and Blacks would be sent... Mickey worked with doing a lot of medical stuff with Puerto Ricans, and making use of that hospital, and training people to be first aid stuff and things. And one of the great things they did is the Young Lords stole a New York City Health van, and brought it down into Spanish Harlem and did lead poisoning of the kids, testing for it.
SM: Oh.
RP: Because those vans used to just sit there. They did really great actions like that.
SM: How do you spell his first name?
RP: M-I-C-K-E-Y, Mickey.
SM: Oh, just like Mickey Mantle.
RP: Miguel.
SM: Just like Mickey Mantle.
RP: Yeah, or Miguel is his real name, but I call him Mickey.
SM: How did you become linked to the Black Panther Party? In other words, how did you develop their trust as a white person?
RP: Okay, now I know. I had to think a minute. So, I always cared about Black people, and I loved the Black Panther Party when they came out.
SM: Let me switch my tape here. Hold on one second.
RP: ...another book, number one. Number two, she has got six relatives-
SM: Oh.
RP: That she is taking care of, somebody in her house. She has got a lot of problems. She has got kids that she has got to deal with. She's got grandkids. She has got a full plate, plus she teacher. And I am pretty good friends with her, actually.
SM: She said not to contact her until she finished her book, and she said it was going to be done by October.
RP: I do not know. October, this coming October?
SM: Yeah, right now. How did you become linked again to the Black Panthers?
RP: All right, this is what happened. I am in radical Newsreel, the film group, and I began filming every time a group of... Every time the Panthers did anything... They were our counterpart. Newsreel, we were all radicals. We had a lot of film, so I started going up to the...I was asked by one of the leaders of the Black Panther Party in New York, if I would come up and show Newsreel films to educate the new recruits of the Panthers in their office. So once a week, every Monday night I think it was, I would leave the office. I would carry this very heavy, turquoise blue projector. I cannot tell you how heavy it was. And I would take one or two films under my arm and my purse, and I would take the subway up to 127th Street. Get out, and I would walk down to...I cannot remember if it was Seventh Avenue, the street that the Panthers' headquarters were on. And this guy, he was in charge of the headquarters and the building space, exactly, and who also was in helping with the new, young recruits, the new, young high school kids, and people who came in. And he would help set me up, and I would show... How I am talking to you about the films, I would talk to these kids about what the films were about. And we would show a film, and we would have a political discussion. And I did that once a week. It would be dark by that time, so then he would walk me back. His name was Zayd Shakur. You heard of Afeni Shakur?
SM: Oh, yes.
RP: Assata Shakur?
SM: Yeah, the [inaudible]-
RP: [inaudible] Shakur? Zayd's grandfather also has the name Shakur. Their family name is Shakur. And I love Zayd. He was the kindest, softest, nicest young guy that you could ever imagine. And Afeni Shakur, Tupac Shakur-
SM: Yes.
RP: They are all part of the same family.
SM: Oh, wow.
RP: And they took that name. Some of them were born into it, but they took the name. And when they would have reunions and parties, I always got invited. And even from Vermont, years later when I left, I would get invited. And I went to the cake company here in Burlington. And I had a cake that said... Made a big sheet cake to bring down for the party that was being held in Connecticut that said, "All power to the people." So I said to the woman who is the baker, I said, "Do you know what that means?" She says, "Does it have something to do with electric company?" And that was the end of that. I tried to explain. So, I always was close to the Black Panthers. I loved the Black Panther people that I met. And to this day, they're still really kind to me, gentle to me. And Zayd Shakur got killed on a shootout on the New Jersey Turnpike. And he was really a neat young man, but he worked with the new young students who came into the party. And after I would show the film, and talk about the film, and what was happening in the country, he would walk me back to the subway to make sure I would get on the subway safely. And that was my relationship with him.
SM: I think it's important because there's a lot of misperceptions out there on the part of people who have read history or maybe do not know or do not want to know. Please explain the Panther links to white people and the partnerships they have with Asian Americans, and Mexican Americans, and Puerto Ricans. Because I do not think a lot of people... I think they isolate them into this one group, and they do not really see the relationships that they had with other people. Could you talk a little bit about that?
RP: Well, I just told you one story about me going down there. And still to this day, when they have reunions, I go to the reunions. And there's that time... I have done a lot of work around other things. You got to understand that this is not all I have done. Because I became friends with a lawyer by the name Elizabeth Fink. Do you know that name?
SM: Yes.
RP: So, Elizabeth Fink worked a lot on Dhoruba Bin Wahad's case. He was a Black Panther member. And I was in her law office, that she shared with a bunch of other people, when they had requested a whole bunch of documents on this whole case and on the Panthers to come. And I was there when they arrived, and there was something like 500,000 documents, big boxes, and boxes, and boxes of stuff. And then they went through the stuff... I never saw that much stuff. And it included all the counterintelligence documents, all the dirty tricks the FBI did that you have only heard about, but it's written down there in black and white. And I said, "Oh, this is incredible." So then, they did an appeal, and a lot of things are blacked out. So the lawyers in the office, Bob Boyle, Elizabeth Fink, and Bob Bloom, they did an appeal. And they asked that all the blacked out materials be un-blackened so we could read and see what it says. Sometimes there would be a whole page blacked out, so you did not know exactly what... So they did this, and they won. And I had this brilliant idea... I always get these brilliant ideas that then cost me years, that I would go through and... Because they were not in any order, anything. They're just how the FBI put it together as things went on. But you would be reading something about some incident, and then maybe 300 pages later, it would go on about that incident, what happened. So, I organized the project here at the University of Vermont. I brought it up for my students and other people in the community. I had a big meeting. I gave them instructions. Each person got one FBI book of documents that covered a certain period of time, maybe let us say 100 or 200 pages of documents. And I gave them a coding form. I worked with a coding form with the computer department. You would say, what was the volume it was from? What page was it? What's the number? The FBI has code numbers on each thing that they do. What is it about? Is it about starting problems between different groups? Is it about schools? Is it about education? Is it about workers? Is there something about race in it? It had about maybe 70 different things that you could mark, the time, the dates, the city that it happened in... And so, I did this. And after a number of years, we collected all this material. And then, we got the computer department at the University of Vermont to enter all the data. And it printed out everything in this order, so we could tell exactly what different things the FBI had done, going through all these 100,000 pages-
SM: Wow.
RP: Documents.
SM: And it was pretty bad, was not it?
RP: Yeah, it was really bad. And the thing is that when we got these documents, so much of the stuff was not marked out. It was not blacked out because... Some of the documents were blacked out. And then Liz Fink, and Bob Boyle, and the attorneys would go to court and demand that certain things be not blacked out. And then, the FBI would have to release things that showed, really, what happened.
SM: Wow.
RP: And so, we would get then better documents that showed us more and told this us more. And then sometimes, you would be reading a document and you did not know what really happened. And then you would read maybe five books later... Let us say, it's 300 pages, 400 pages later. You would come across something else that would fill in the information to tell the story completely. And so, that was a really big project that I did. I got totally obsessed around that because I could not believe that the FBI actually wrote all that stuff out. And not only did they write it out, but then they allowed the lawyers and the clients to see all that. It's just shocking to me. And I got totally turned onto the FBI. And there was one agent who was the biggest sexist... And great writer, brilliant writer, but he is very racist, very sexist. He liked to make jokes about Black people and everything when he made all his comments and his initials. See, we never knew the names of the FBI agents, but the FBI agents on each page, or when they did the reports, would put their initials. And his initials were WAC. So, we called him Agent WAC.
SM: Wow.
RP: And years later, I am reading through some other files, and I see that... Oh, I know what happened. I had gotten some files from the FBI in San Francisco. And when they were duplicating the files for me, or for the lawyers actually, for Liz Fink, they included... I found a page as I was reading it that had all the present-day... Somebody else must have gone to the Xerox machine and said, "Oh, I need a list of everybody who's working in the office right now." And they made a copy of all the FBI agents, with their names and present phone numbers.
SM: Oh my gosh.
RP: So, I got that document, and there's my Agent WAC. And I get his name for the first time. I only knew his initials were W-A-C. His name was William A. Cohendet, D-E-T at the end of his name, Cohendet, but it's Cohendet. And so, I get really excited. And I finally figure out, I am going to call the FBI office and see if I could talk to this guy. But then I do not have my nerve. And then I have this friend who is working for Mike Wallace at CBS. She went through a lot of my stories with me. She said, "Well, let me try... Give me that information. Let me see if I can do it, because maybe CBS will do a story on him." So, she calls me back a week later. And she says, "Well, you know what? That list was a list of the present-day FBI agents." This is years later. This is 20 years later. And that is his son who is also an FBI agent. And his son works there, and he's retired. But she gave me the son's home phone number, so I called up the son. No. She called up the son's home-home number, said it was from CBS. And she spoke to his wife. And his wife said, "Oh, that is his father who worked in those days. I will give you the phone number." So, we got the phone number of Agent WAC. By the time I pulled together a camera team, I pulled together somebody who was Steven Spielberg's cameraman and did all the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. And it was one of the same camera... He had a lot of camera people, but this was one that did them in France, I believe, that survived. I got him, and I got a friend of mine who's a very good sound person, and I called up the number. And I told him we would like to do an interview with him, and he got thrilled. We showed up, it was his 89th birthday. And he was so happy that he got to tell his story and be a star.
SM: Oh my God.
RP: So, we were there all day long, from morning until it started to get dark, and I interviewed him. Part of that interview is on my DVD. You should get the DVD. The story's there.
SM: Yeah, I am definitely going to get it, definitely.
RP: So, I have the interview with him on the DVD, part of it. Edited it, obviously. And then I also have another interview with another FBI agent that I fell in love with... Love meaning just through the paperwork. It's this other guy, Wesley Swearingen, who turned against the FBI at some point. And he got very interested... He was trying to figure out a lot of things. Because he came out to help Geronimo and some other people, and then he thought the FBI was maybe going to kill him. And he had retired already. He got really scared. And he had been in Hawaii, and he lived on a boat for many years. He now lives in Southern California. But anyways, I got him... I wanted to interview him, so I got the University of Vermont to pay him money and bring him to the university to talk about his being an FBI agent, which they did.
SM: Wow.
RP: And I got him a hotel, took him out for dinner with my friends, and we hit it off really well. And the following year, he called me up. And he said, "Roz, I am visiting my in-laws who live in the southern part of the state. And can we come and visit you?" I never have any of my documents. I never saved anything. And this FBI agent is this guy who I think maybe I messed up two of the stories, combined them a little. But this FBI, this is Agent WAC who I am talking about now. And his in-laws, he said, "Oh, my in-laws live in Pittsford." I said, "Oh, I know Pittsford." Because as a joke, some years earlier...I live in this little town, and we have a constable in our town that is elected position. And nobody was running that year. And as a joke, 32 of my friends did not tell me, but they wrote my name in. And I got the most votes so I became Constable in the town.
SM: Oh my gosh.
RP: And then they sent me for a week at the Police Academy to study all the laws of police laws and everything, which is in Pittsford, Pittsfield. And that is where the Police Academy was. So, I said to the guy, "Well, I have been there because I was elected constable, and I went there to study for a week." He says, "Well, meet my wife and all my family and we will take you out to the Radisson for dinner." So I did meet him, and we had dinner. And the first thing his wife says to me is, "You appreciate him more than his own children." And then, we became these immediate friends. I got what I call my costume. I got all dressed up. I changed how I normally look a little, and made myself very proper. And so, it was... a little and myself very proper. And so, that is how I got to know these two agents. And through them, I got a lot of information. And they're both on my DVD. I did two interviews with both of them. This DVD, besides having just some newsreel films, the extras is the main thing. It's nothing that you sit and watch all the way through because there's like maybe a PDF file at the very end. You turn off the DVD player and you look at it. There's a way of having to look at a PDF file on a DVD. And there's probably like, I do not know, 500 items on it, which includes all the Panther position papers and FBI documents that they wrote about them and all sorts of stuff.
SM: Did not you have even yourself have an FBI record of over a thousand pages?
RP: I have FBI [inaudible]. It's kind of boring. It's basically that I was seen at this event or seen at that event.
SM: Oh, okay.
RP: I never really did anything. I mean, I am not brave like a lot of people. I never got in trouble. I never got arrested. I was there as a camera person or as a demonstrator. My mother told me, "Do not get arrested. Escape if you can." And that is what I always followed, her words. Because being arrested is not fun.
SM: One of the things I wanted to ask is why did the Black Panther party begin? No, you already talked about that. Why do a lot of people believe that they were a violent group like the Weathermen? I have talked to a lot of different people, and I cannot pick on any specific person, but when they talk about how the anti-war movement and civil rights and how the movements all went negative toward the end of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, they bring up the Weathermen, they bring up the American Indian movement, which went violent at Wounded Knee, and they bring up the Black Panthers. Now-
RP: All right, let me speak to that.
SM: Yeah.
RP: I mean, I know your question, but let me do Wounded Knee first [inaudible]. Wounded Knee, these Native people were on their own land at Wounded Knee. And who was surrounding them? Who had a blockade that kept food from coming in? Do you know?
SM: Well, I would think it would be the police.
RP: Yes. So, that was Native land. I mean, in this country, you have a right to defend yourself.
SM: Right.
RP: All right. So, I am not even going to get into that. You can go online and read what Bill Cussler, their attorneys, and various other people have written about that and what they have written about it themselves. That was their land. And there's no reason at all that the US government should have been there. My opinion. All right. The second thing about the Panthers. The Panthers and Black people have been killed for years. They have been lynched, they have been hung, they have been beaten, they have been horribly treated, and they have a right to defend themselves and not allow themselves to be lynched and hung and beaten like that. And in this country, you have a right to carry a gun. You have a right to self-defense. And none of those Panthers ever shot, to my knowledge, at anybody unless the cops were shooting at them. Actually, there's a film out right now, and we're showing it at our film festival. It's the son of one of the Black Panthers that was involved in the LA shootout of the Black Panther headquarters. He's a young man. He studied film editing at USC, and his father and his father's friend, one of them had gotten shot when the police came and just did not like the Panthers, so they're going to shoot up their headquarters. They went to South Central LA and shot up. The father's a minister, and his friend still walks with a limp from being shot in the leg. He was on the roof, and there were no guns there at all. White people carry guns. You're allowed to go hunting, you're allowed to protect yourself. There's gun control that Blacks cannot have guns, and only whites can have guns. Only police can have guns. There were some Panthers that did bad drugs, and some of them maybe did things that were not too cool. I am not going to mention names or anything, but there were Panthers that were violent. But then you have to take each case and each thing by itself and you cannot link a whole group of people like all men or all white women or whatever it is, or all Weather people did this because it was not all. Sometimes there's somebody who does something that is not a good thing. And so, I think what happened is the Panthers, as soon as the media... And I blame the media for some of this, got a hold of the Panthers when they had guns to protect themselves. You know how many Black people were killed before Panthers had guns? They felt like they have a right in this country, have a right to have a gun. I mean, people in my town, I live in Vermont, there was a girl that lived here, and we used to walk around with a... What are they called? Around your waist. You have a holster. Is that what they're called?
SM: Mm-hmm.
RP: There was a gun in it. And during the hunting time, there's guns. Everybody has guns in their racks of their cars. But if they were Black people, I bet you it would be another story.
SM: And they forget the fine things that they did do, which is certainly the lunch program for poor kids, the sickle cell anemia drives to raise funds for that. There's a lot of issues that were very positive. Do not you somewhat blame the media though here? Because the media... I am just throwing a question out here. The media has a tendency to show the sensational every time. It's the sensational, the black berets, the intimidation, the guns, which is part of it. And two specific instances stand to mind. One was when the Black Panthers in California surrounded the Alameda County courthouse.
RP: I was there, by the way.
SM: Oh, were you?
RP: Yeah. And it's one of our films, on my DVD about... My big box set on the Black Panthers, it has that film in it.
SM: Well, it was that scene and then the one we all know at Cornell in 1969, which was the students coming out of the union there with guns.
RP: Do you have a picture of that? We cannot find these picture... And I remember seeing one picture, but I-
SM: I have the magazine front cover of, I think it's Newsweek, that I will send you.
RP: I would love to see it because I am trying to figure out... Because it was the anniversary of that, and I was trying to figure out where... There was a film made about it, but I cannot even find that anymore.
SM: I know Harry Edwards was the graduate student there who was kind of the advisor of that group. Of course, Harry went on to be a sociology professor at Berkeley and wrote Black Students, which is a great book. He's retired now. But those are the two scenes. You see students at Cornell and you see the Black Panthers at Alameda County courthouse. And what-
RP: Alameda County courthouse, I have a whole film. It's on that DVD. But there were no guns at that. There were no guns at all. There was marching around the courthouse.
SM: Okay. Well, the picture was seen all over the place.
RP: I might have to change phones. This phone is starting to go dead, the battery.
SM: Is that your cell phone?
RP: I got find my other telephone because this one's starting to go dead, I think.
SM: All right.
RP: Oh, here. Maybe this one will work better.
SM: Okay. You're still coming through pretty strong.
RP: No, but I hear it be starting to beep. It's warning me. Hold on a minute.
SM: Okay.
RP: Can you hear me?
SM: Yup.
RP: Okay, let me try this phone. I have got four phones downstairs on the same line.
SM: All right.
RP: The one I was talking to you starts beeping, so it gives me a warning that it might go dead.
SM: Could you, in your own words, talk about the fine things that the Black Panthers did do? I know I listed them. But it's my understanding too, because I have read about President Johnson, did not he take the food program and try to incorporate that into a program within the federal government? There's something there that they-
RP: [01:51:34] sounds familiar about it. But they did start the breakfast program. There had never been a breakfast program. Because kids were hungry going to school in the morning. You cannot think if you do not have a good breakfast. And they would have grits and eggs and blah, blah. That is why the Young Lords had that fight over taking over the church because they wanted to also have the breakfast program there.
SM: Right. When you look at the unique personalities of the leaders of the Black Panthers, Black Panthers are never looked upon, in my understanding, as a... They did not have weekly meetings.
RP: They did.
SM: Did they have weekly meetings?
RP: Oh, yeah.
SM: Did they have membership drives?
RP: Well, I do not know that they had a membership drive, but they were always having new recruits coming in.
SM: Yeah, well-
RP: Because I actually did a PR class with new recruits one time. I showed them the old Panther film, and there was somebody else... In fact, that is what I was going up to Harlem with the projectors, to show the film to new recruits. I did it weekly.
SM: There's about seven or eight personalities that were nationally known that were leaders of the party. The ones that seem to have the positive image, I will mention them first. Kathleen Cleaver seemed to have a more positive image in the minds of many people, as did Eldridge Cleaver, because he was also a writer. And even David Horowitz will say that he was a very good writer, when Soul On Ice was written. And actually, he said he did not have as much of problem with Eldridge as he did with everybody else.
RP: David said that?
SM: Well, David, I interviewed him over a year ago, so I am trying to think of... But it seemed like the only one-
RP: Only one you cannot imagine. David and I debated each other, by the way, at an academic conference on popular culture. And he's just horrible around the Panthers. And I will tell you why I think he's horrible. This woman, Kay... Kay Spender, maybe. Kay something. She was white, and he brought her over to do bookkeeping for the Panthers. He brought her over to Oakland. There's a bar there that the Panthers used to hang out. It was very close to where Huey's penthouse apartment was. He would sometimes get take-out food sent up to his place. I know a lot of this from the FBI files, reading them, by the way. And Kay Spender one day disappeared. She was at the bar, she left to go home and she was never seen again. No body, nothing. And David was the one that brought her over to the Panthers. David Horowitz, that is. And got her set up to be their bookkeeper. And he blamed, this is my opinion, he blamed himself for her disappearance and her probably death. And what happened to her? Who knows? Because there was never any sign of anything about what happened. It could have been that she was drunk walking home and passed out or some guy grabbed her or she drowned in the water. I mean, who knows? I do not know anything. I cannot imagine why Panthers would do anything because she used to do their bookkeeping, unless she knew something that she should not have known. I do not know.
SM: Well, I know that... Was not her name Mary Van Petton? Patton?
RP: I do not know, maybe.
SM: I think it was a different name. But he became a conservative as a result of this experience.
RP: Well, he hates the Panthers. He probably hates them as much as he hates me, because I did so well in that... I have debated him a few times and people love what I say, and they tell him to shut up.
SM: Yeah. We had him on our campus a couple times. But looking at these individuals, you have got to admit that Huey Newton does not have a good reputation, from all the-
RP: Huey Newton is not somebody that I loved. He's a high-liver. And he used Panther money. He had a penthouse apartment, he used designer drugs like coke and various other things. A lot of white people did that too, a lot of movie stars did that too, but they did not get harassed by the police. And he was a very good speaker at times, from what I hear. I have heard him speak a few times just on tape, but I do not really know him and I am not into bad-mouthing him or protecting him, because I do not really know. He was West Coast. I only really knew the East Coast-
SM: The other one that has a really bad name is H. Rap Brown, who's actually in jail for the rest of his life, I think.
RP: Yeah. Well, I am not going to get into him, but I do not know him at all.
SM: But Stokely Carmichael seemed to have a lot of respect-
RP: Yeah, he was.
SM: ... because of the fact he had been involved with SNCC.
RP: He was in SNCC. I only heard him speak a few times, and he was very bright, I thought.
SM: And then Kathleen Cleaver seems to have a lot of respect.
RP: Very respectful of people too.
SM: And Eldridge is a sad story in its own right.
RP: Yeah. Well, Eldridge became later a Moonie. You know that?
SM: Yes.
RP: I saw him, he came to the University of Vermont. The Moonies brought him here. And so, I went out in the parking lot waiting for him to come because I wanted him to sign this book I had. And he looked at the book, it was one of the old Panther books. He says, "I ain't signing that shit." He was really pissed. And he got into crack cocaine. I mean, he became a really bad drug addict. And anybody who's a really bad drug addict at some point, you cannot take them [inaudible].
SM: The killing of Fred Hampton was a sad thing too, in Chicago.
RP: Yeah.
SM: Because they said he was [inaudible].
RP: Plus, the cops did that. Right?
SM: Yeah.
RP: And he was a very bright young man.
SM: In the materials I have here, you were at all these events.
RP: I was not at the killing of Fred Hampton.
SM: No, no, no, no. But the Free Huey... There were Free Huey-
RP: Free Huey, off the pigs.
SM: Yeah. And then also Free Bobby at New Haven. And then-
RP: I was there.
SM: And then Free the 21 in New York City.
RP: I was there.
SM: So those are all major trials.
RP: Yeah. Well, I loved the Panthers, number one, and so did all my friends. That is the other thing. It was a big social thing for us. And I loved Afeni Shakur, I still love Afeni Shakur. I remember Tupac Shakur when he was a little baby. And I remember the grandfather. In fact, grandfather, who was his old man, a very dignified man. My politics, my (19)60s politics, I grew up with them. They were there from the beginning of my politics. So it was like I matured with them and I knew them from places and from events. The East Coast Panthers. Then at times, I went out because we started up a San Francisco newsreel. They said, "Hey, you got to come out here and make a film." We said, "You better make your own films. We're going to send some people out and you're going to find some filmmakers, and you're going to learn how to use cameras because we cannot be every place."
SM (01:59:34):
You talked about COINTELPRO. My interview this morning, we talked about it as well. I had another person I interviewed this morning from California. Explain in your own words what was COINTELPRO and what did it do to activists that... In one of the articles that I read on you, [inaudible] talked about Jean Seberg the actress. Then the experience you had with Dr. Curtis Powell, that you had to walk with him into his apartment. What they tried to do to Bobby Seal and Kathleen Cleaver and the Yippies and SNCC and Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
RP: I do not know anything about SCLC or SNCC, really. The counterintelligence program, you should... Have you ever interviewed any FBI agents that-
SM: No, I cannot. I know if anybody would ever speak to me.
RP: Yeah, I know somebody that will.
SM: Oh.
RP: He is a very important guy.
SM: Okay.
RP: You got to get my DVD. I have two FBI agents on my DVD. You will not get better talks than that. You can use any material you want from that.
SM: All right.
RP: The DVD, I have one of the most important FBI agents, and he's written a book exposing the FBI. And the other one is the one that is dead now, that opened up the case in San Francisco on the Panthers, because he was in the San Francisco office and he was assigned it. And he just sat there and he wrote up what happened every day. It was very boring to him. The informers would come in and he would get all these notes and he would just put it in a report. The thing was that he was a great writer. And he told funny jokes and he made fun of people, and he was sexist and he was racist. He wrote all these reports to send to his fellow FBI agent that he knew from the academy when he went to the academy. And he told me right in my DVD, he said, "I was writing the reports for them." They said, "Keep them coming. They're hilarious." He's dead now. I give you permission to use whatever you want from any of my DVD. If you want an FBI agent who wants to talk about it.
SM: Because you see, the book is about the boomer generation and the young people that grew up, but they all experienced all this. They all saw these things. They became influenced by it. And the people that are going to read these oral histories, they're going to be... Well, they may not be reading history books. So, if you could, in just a few words, talk about what COINTELPRO or what they did to the actress Jean Seberg-
RP: Okay. Well-
SM: And-
RP: What COINTELPRO did was it tried to destroy people's lives. It tried to make people look bad. It tried to embarrass people. It told lies and set up situations so that people sometimes could not face the media getting hold of these things. It was, the main thing, was the counterintelligence program to destroy, in this case, the Black Panther party. I mean, they have a counterintelligence program to destroy, let us say, the Young Lord's party or to destroy the Weathermen. The counterintelligence [02:03:26] used dirty tricks to destroy people and the FBI was pretty good at it. And in some cases, they were not very good. But with the Black Panthers, they would send out letters to people saying, "Beware. So-and-so just reported you to the police." Or "Beware. Jean Seberg is carrying a Black baby." When it was born, somebody saw the fetus and it was Black. " And we're going to feed her to the Hollywood gossip columnist..." What was her name? Jean Haber? No. Jean somebody. And some people think that that was one of the reasons that she may have killed herself, if she did kill herself, because she was embarrassed about all that, Jean Seberg.
SM: Was it a Black fetus?
RP: I do not know. I was not there.
SM: Oh, I read it was a white fetus. She went around with it or something like that.
RP: Jean Seberg went around with the fetus?
SM: Yes, she did.
RP: Where did you get that?
SM: I read it in one of the... I will have to email that to you too. It was in one of the articles.
RP: Well, you cannot believe everything you... I mean, I am not-
SM: Yeah.
RP: But what they did is they tried to make people look bad and embarrass people. That is the main thing about it. And sometimes, people could not take it and destroyed their lives and sometimes they killed themselves. Or sometimes they dropped out of being political people because they could not take their families knowing about [inaudible].
SM: What always amazes me is that we do live in a democracy where liberty is always protected. And of course, liberty is divine, is freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion. But here we have this COINTELPRO group that survived through '75. And then we have the FBI and the CIA, that have been infiltrating groups for years, and they destroyed many lives. In a quote that you put down here is that, "Democracy is based on openness and the existence of a secret policy, secret lists of dissident citizens, violates the spirit of democracy." That was a quote from you.
RP: I cannot remember half the things I say or wrote.
SM: Well, I was looking-
RP: I have been looking forward to getting your book. Is it a book you're doing or what?
SM: Yeah. You have time for a couple more questions?
RP: Yeah, sure.
SM: Yeah. You have been teaching, co-teaching, a course at the (19)60s at Burlington College for a while?
RP: Yeah.
SM: How-
RP: Not a co-teacher, I was teaching it alone.
SM: Yeah. How do the students react to courses like this, and how does the administration at the university respond to anything of the (19)60s? Because my experience has been that universities are afraid of the term "activism" due to the memories and the lessons from the (19)60s.
RP: Where do you teach?
SM: Oh, I used to be at Westchester University, not anymore.
RP: Okay. Well, let me tell you, where I teach... Well, I am off right now. But I had been teaching at Burlington College in Vermont. You know who our dean is?
SM: No, I do not.
RP: Do you know who Bernie Sanders-
SM: Oh, I know Bernie. Yes. Former congressman.
RP: Well, his wife was our dean.
SM: Oh, okay. That speaks for itself.
RP: But I was teaching there before she became the dean, and she actually has been very rude to me.
SM: Oh, no.
RP: And she actually is one of the reasons I am not teaching there now. But do not say anything about that.
SM: Oh, no, I will not.
RP: But it's a big long story. But I think I was ready to retire anyway.
SM: Yeah. What did the student protest movement teach universities in the (19)60s? What do you feel the universities learned from it, and maybe what have they forgotten?
RP: This is how I do my class. I give a little talk in the beginning, whatever the subject matter is, and then I show them one of the newsreel films. Because the pictures and seeing the real thing, there's nothing can beat that from that time. So, they see a film every time, and we have a discussion before the film, and we have a discussion after the film, and then they have to write impressions and write papers. That is about how all my classes are. And luckily, I have the whole collection of newsreel films. And the reason that newsreel films are so good is they're not slick Hollywood films. They're like real life. They're a little jumpy, they're running in the street with a camera. Cops are chasing us or whatever it is. And they cannot believe some of the stuff. They love it. They love those films because it's like real life.
SM: Well, the students love them, but do the universities love them?
RP: Yeah, but I am telling you where I teach, I teach at [inaudible] College. The other thing is, the universities love our films because who's the person that buys 90 percent of the films that I sell? The universities.
SM: Yes.
RP: Cornell, Harvard, Syracuse, Princeton, NYU, UCLA, Santa Barbara, SF State. I mean, all these schools have collections of our films because nobody else has done (19)60s like we have done them. We have done the burning of... One of the most radical events that ever happened in Santa Barbara, my first year of college, I went to Santa Barbara. And of course, I was not there when the burning of the Bank of America happened, that was one of the first radical things in Santa Barbara, was all these blonde crew cut boys and little blonde flipped girls burned down the Bank of America in Santa Barbara. Never happened before on our campus.
SM: Why would they do that?
RP: You know story?
SM: Well, I know that it happened, but I cannot remember why.
RP: Because there was a professor, they were going to fire a professor that they liked. And he was a political person. That started it. I mean, there were other issues, I am sure.
SM: Are there any myths about the boomer generation that you would like to comment on from your point of view? Any myth?
RP: Like what?
SM: Oh, that is why I am asking. Are there any myths?
RP: Tell me what you mean by a myth.
SM: A myth is a story that is-
RP: I know, that is not true. But give me an example of something [inaudible].
SM: A hundred percent of the students were activists. That is a myth. It only about 10 percent.
RP: That is not even a truth.
SM: Right.
RP: I do not know about myths, I guess.
SM: Are there any truths about the boomer generation and their times that are still being used to mislead the American public about the times when boomers were young, through today? And that might be linked to the criticisms that the era that the boomers grew up in is often attacked as the era where all our problems started. Because of drugs, sex, rock and roll.
RP: Rock and roll.
SM: Long hair, lack of respect for authority. Challenging your point of view, the welfare state, the isms and all the other stuff.
RP: What's the question around those again?
SM: The question is, are there any truths about the boomer generation, their times, that are still being used to mislead?
RP: Oh, I do not know about still being used because I am not really... I do not hang out with people that think like that, so I do not hear that so much. And I do not hear it on TV. I watch a lot of TV. And when I travel, I am talking... For example, three months ago, I got a grant to go to Mississippi to study Mississippi and Tennessee, but mainly Mississippi, to study the Civil Rights period. They're community college teachers, I am with like 40 community college teachers. And when you're teaching community college, you're taking for granted that these students are probably not as wealthy as regular university students, maybe. Or maybe they're not as smart. I mean, I do not know what people would think myth-wise. But the teachers there were some of the most brilliant teachers I have ever met. They talked in a language that the students could understand. And it was really interesting. I spent one week with them living, sleeping, getting up in the morning, eating, traveling. We got on a bus and we went out to the delta and we went and parked in front of the store where Emmett Till went... Where supposedly the girl was there that he whistled at. We hung out there. We went to Fannie Lou Hamer's house. We did all this stuff. And all those people there were community college teachers. I mean, they knew as much, or if not more, politics than I did, some of them. And they were brilliant. They had none of those myths that you would even think about. I never heard anything come out of any of their mouths. And they were from Texas, they were from Florida. Just community colleges. They were just like normal students who got their degree and went to teach in a community college.
SM: When did the (19)60s begin and end, in your opinion? And what was the watershed moment?
RP: Oh, God. Well, I do not know. I am a little confusing around that issue because you got to realize that I grew up political. All my life, I was a political person because I got it from... My parents were political. I knew nothing. I sometimes say I was brainwashed into it because that is what I knew. And that is how they acted and the way that they dealt with Black people or workers or anybody was always like this wonderful way. Did they drink? My mother did not, but my father sometimes would have a beer at night when he got home. He was a working man. I grew up in a working-class family and so, for me, I never had any pretensions of anything except a certain type of life. And you told the truth and you worked hard and you tried to help other people. So, I do not know. I mean, I do not know in my world that I ever actually encountered that. What I did encounter at some point, one of the first things that made me rebel... I do not know. It's hard to say. I do not know. I mean, I grew up in LA and Hollywood. I mean, it's very different than growing up in a normal place.
SM: That is okay for your answer. Some people give a specific event or period or whatever for the beginning and the end of the (19)60s, in their opinion.
RP: Well, I mean, miniskirts was not like the (19)60s - Miniskirts was not like the (19)60s, was it?
SM: Yeah, that was the (19)60s.
RP: What year was that?
SM: It was around (19)63, (19)64.
RP: Okay. Well, one of the things that happened to me, I always liked clothes, was when I was teaching school in New Jersey and the teacher sent me home from school because my skirt was too short. The teacher told me to go home and change. What's that?
SM: That is okay. And that was a watershed moment.
RP: That was a big watershed moment. And that is when I quit teaching.
SM: Another thing...
RP: That is when I decided to move to New York and I looked for that apartment. I told you that story, and then I...
SM: Yes.
RP: But that was a personal attack upon me. The other thing that that school did, here's another thing, the war in Vietnam, now I am thinking about it, the war in Vietnam was going on, and this is in New Jersey. This was in North Bergen, New Jersey, which is the town that I was living in at the time. And the Jersey Journal, I think was the name of the newspaper, but I am not sure. But some local newspaper sent out to all the schools these petitions that say we support our boys in Vietnam. And we were supposed to get all of our students to sign it. Well, first of all, I left it there. I said, if anybody wants to sign it, you can sign it. But then later that afternoon, when they were supposed to turn them in to the office, later that afternoon, I was walking through the office and nobody was there. I grabbed all the petitions and threw them away. So that was pretty intense for me. I knew I was quitting. I think that was probably the day I was quitting, I think. I did not care.
SM: Well, one of the things that you discussed when Newsreel did their films, is revolution is a term that was used by the new left, and the Panthers used it all the time, too. Do you feel though, in the eyes of many, that that term "revolution" hurts the legitimacy in the eyes of critics?
RP: Oh, I never worry about things like that, because what does the word revolution mean? How would you define it?
SM: Like the American Revolution.
RP: Right. That is a positive thing, is not it?
SM: Yes, it is.
RP: I did not understand what you said about critics, then.
SM: Well, for example, when we did the... In 1976 with the bicentennial, there was a group that we brought to campus that was under the leadership of Jeremy Rifkin, and it was the People's Bicentennial Commission. And the basic premise was that the founding fathers were revolutionaries. Well, that really upset people in Ohio, because we had a program with William Pells, one of the professors who came in to talk about the revolutionaries. And we had the Daughters from the American Revolution there saying, how dare you say that these were radicals? And it was a Midwest, and they were very upset with the use of the term "revolution" and "radical". So that was just an example.
RP: Well, I do not know. I do not really know because I am never really fussy about certain things. I am more of an activist. I just do my thing and I have my friends and we do it together. And I am not trying to get any place or be any place, or whatever happened to me was basically not necessarily planned.
SM: We took a group of students to Washington in and to talk about the year 1968, and we met with Senator Muskie, and we thought he was going to talk about the convention of (19)68. And the question was this, that the students asked him, and I will give you his response after I get yours, the question was, due to the divisions that were so intense in the Boomer generation during the (19)60s and (19)70s, do you feel that this generation of 74 million will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, with bitterness and dislike and hatred toward opponents, similar to what happened during the Civil War in the areas of Black versus white, male versus female, gay versus straight, pro-war, anti-war, pro-troops, anti-troops. And that was a question we asked, and we waited for his response.
RP: What would he say?
SM: I want to hear your response first. Do you think we have a problem? Even within the Black Panthers, is there any healing or is not healing necessary?
RP: They have had healing, yes. Panthers have actually had a lot of healing stuff. And I think you have to have some type of healing stuff go on, somewhat. But you cannot have healing stuff for people who are dangerous and can kill people or kill other people. So, I do not know. I do not really know, because I have never had very many enemies to tell you the truth. For example, I did not like, at the end of Eldridge Cleaver's life, he came to UVM and he was working... The Moonies were paying his salary. I thought that was disgusting. And he said things that were disgusting things, and I would never go to see him again after that. And then he was found in an alleyway doing crack. He ruined his life. He ruined everything that he originally stood for. The people would put out bottles in Berkeley while he was being a crackhead and stuff. And people have picked them up and turned the money and the money went into the free clinic. And he would send out his guys to pick up earlier in the morning to take the bottles so they could keep the money. So there's things like that. I would just ignore the guy. That is the most I could say. He was important at his time when things were happening in the beginning, and then the drugs took over and it made him a bad person, I guess.
SM: There's a couple of quotes here that I want to put in the record. These are your quotes. This is from you: "We produce various films that these groups could use to tell their stories and to use in organizing their own communities and workplaces, hopefully serving as a catalyst for social change." Another very important quote from you, and again, this is for the record: " The only news we saw was on TV and we knew who owned the stations. We decided to make films that would show another side of the news. It was clear that the established forms of media were not going to approach those subjects which threatened their very existence." And then the last one here was...
RP: Where did you get that quote from?
SM: I got that quote from... I would have to send that, too.
RP: No, the reason I am asking, I agree with that statement, by the way it is not that I do not disagree with it. What I think is the language of that-
SM: Hold on one second because my tape is running out here. Hold on, one second. Okay. Let me get my... Bear with me.
RP: Okay, I am not rushing.
SM: Okay.
RP: I am doing my taxes, believe it or not.
SM: Taxes?
RP: Yeah. I screwed up.
SM: Oh, my goodness.
RP: And my whole living room floor has about 30 piles.
SM: Oh no.
RP: I am not doing it right now while I am talking to you, but I have been doing it for three days. I thought I only had to do it around certain business stuff or something else. But now my accountant told me I only have to do it around my film business.
SM: Oh.
RP: So, I have been working for four days on all this stuff because I save every piece of paper, but I do not file it right, organize it. It is all in one thing. So, I have been filing, I have been redoing things. So, I am looking at my living room. It is just unreal. But I think that quote that you just read to me, should I go on?
SM: Yes.
RP: I know that I said that we knew who owns whatever it was. I cannot remember exactly what you said.
SM: Yeah, "I know who owns the stations."
RP: Yes. I am wondering where specifically you got that. When did I say that? Because I am wondering, it sounds like ... I believe it totally. I could have said it, but you know what? So, could a lot of other people in Newsreel said it.
SM: Yeah.
RP: I could have picked it up from something that somebody else said.
SM: Yeah. I actually have all the notes here. Hold on one second. I might be able to find that. Oh, here it is. I think this is it. No, that is it. I might have to email you that too. I will email you.
RP: Yeah. Well, you know what? Because that sounds like to me in the old days, I would say, "Right on." It was a right on quote. But it's sounds a little sophisticated for how I talk. But then maybe sometimes I talk like that.
SM: Well, the last quote here is another one, and that is that, "Newsreel worked to expand the awareness of events and situations relevant to shaping the movement. Our films try to analyze, not just cover. They explore the realities of the media as part of the system always ignores."
RP: It is part that the system always ignores. I could have said that though. I do not know. It is definitely what we think about Newsreel. But it also could have been ... Because I could have been sitting around with a group of my friends who were in Newsreel and that could have been something from one of our leaflets that we wrote or something. I do not know.
SM: I am almost done here. But what happens at Panther reunions? How many come to those, number one? And do you keep track of any of the Panthers who died when they were young and how many continued to fight as they got older?
RP: Okay. Well, I have gone to lots of reunions. I have gone to Washington DC, I have gone to San Francisco, I have gone to New York. I have gone to smaller reunions that have to do with specific chapters. When I go, by the way, I like to hang out with Kathleen Cleaver because I really love her. She is a great talker, very bright. And I have got a few other people, this guy Billy Jennings ... Are you really interested in Panthers?
SM: Oh yeah. I have very interested in Panthers. I got all of Bobby Seale's books. I got –
RP: All right. Let me tell you a website to go to.
SM: Oh, okay.
RP: This guy is the most brilliant, smartest. He is the Panther archivist.
SM: Now, where is my pen? I got too much stuff here.
RP: It is okay. I went and got a pencil. I do not even have it anymore. And I have [inaudible].
SM: Okay, I got it. I got a pen.
RP: All right. His name is Billy Jennings is his name.
SM: Billy...
RP: Jennings. J-E-N-N-I-N-G-S. He is out of San Francisco. No, he is out of Sacramento. But his website is, write this down exactly how I tell you. I-T-S.
SM: I-T-S.
RP: It is about, A-B-O-U-T, time, T-I-M-E, B-P-P.
SM: B?
RP: B as in Black Panther Party.
SM: Right.
RP: P-P. His website is, it is About Time B-P-P, I believe.
SM: All right.
RP: His name is Billy Jennings. And he is the smartest, he's the best archivist of the Black Panther Party.
SM: And how old is he?
RP: He is younger than me. But he is married to a woman now who opened the one of the Black Panther free clinics. She's a doctor. And she is white. And I think they both had separate families at some point. They have been married for a really a long time. And he is basically, for the last 20 years, one of the main organizers of pulling the Panther reunions together. And they are brilliant. And he is brilliant. He is very smart. He knows the history better than anybody.
SM: Does he go out and speak on college campuses?
RP: Yeah, he does a lot of stuff. He is fabulous.
SM: Oh, wow.
RP: He is smart. He is interesting. He knows everything, does trips. And he is not a poor guy, I do not know what he is, but I know that he travels quite a bit. He knows everybody. And if you do not get the website, you would have to email me and I will have to look up, maybe I said it wrong, the site. But you could find out everybody who died, how they died. You can find out about all the programs. You can find out each chapter, the New Orleans chapter, the Sacramento chapter, the whatever. You can find out how many people. My friend Michael Singer who was in Newsreel, and he is writing a book about his, I do not know what he is writing about, maybe his life. But he wanted ask some questions about Panthers. He wanted to know how many Panthers have been killed. So, I sent him to Billy. If anybody asks me a Panther question that I do not know, which are probably 90 percent of them, I send them to Billy. He knows it all, and he is the main organizer of all the reunions. Pulls it together. Very good.
SM: Before I ask my very last question, that is that historic picture of Stokely Carmichael with Dr. King, where he's telling Dr. King that his time has passed, that the new Black power is now taking over for non-violent protest, which was with Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy and Bayard Rustin were into. But what what's interesting is when you look at that particular scene from a Black Panther, who was a major person in SNCC, which Stokely was first. It's almost like Dr. King saying to Thurgood Marshall after the Brown versus Board of Education decision was passed in 1954, that your gradualist approach to getting this passed was ... Well, congratulations, but pass the wand because that gradualist approach is no longer going to work because we want our freedom now. And that is what Dr. King said to nonviolent protests and then later on, Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and the group were linked with Stokely Carmichael. And he said, "Your time has passed." And that was before they were even 40 years old. But there's a lot of history there, an awful lot of history. And of course, Malcolm challenged Bayard Ruston in a debate before he died in 1965 too, about the change in Black power. My last question is, when you look at this, do you have any thoughts as a person on the generation that was born between '46 and (19)64, and that means Black, white, male, female, gay, straight, this generation that grew up after World War II, are there any thoughts you have on this generation overall?
RP: Well, that is not my generation.
SM: Well, I know that is not your generation, but you lived and worked with them.
RP: Yeah. That all seem very different than me. I feel like my friends, most of my friends are probably born after '46, and they just seem like one of ours, us.
SM: Maybe it's because the spirit. Your spirit and their spirit are united in so many different causes.
RP: Yeah. Well, that is how most of my friends ... People who are my friends, that is how it is. I played poker with a group of women, and we did not know each other until we all came to Vermont. And we're all involved in a million different diverse things, but we all have this politic that is really a good, clear politic. And it did not make any difference when we were born or anything.
SM: And your activism goes way beyond the Black Panthers according to what I heard.
RP: The Panthers is only a small thing in there.
SM: Yeah. Just list a couple of activist causes you're involved in before we close.
RP: In Bethlehem?
SM: Yes.
RP: Middle East?
SM: Mm-hmm.
RP: Israel and Palestinian, I am in a sister city group in Burlington. We started it with the first sister city that took a Palestinian city, Bethlehem, the Jewish city of Arad with Burlington. And we have a three-way relationship with the three cities. And that was the first that happened. There's something called Sister City International, which hundreds of American cities take cities all over the world to be their sister city. And we knew we would never get a pass in the city council if we had a Palestinian city. So we took a Jewish city and a Palestinian city, and it passed in Burlington City Council. So that is one that I just went to a meeting last night. I cannot stand. It's a losing of that thing. It's very difficult because we cannot even bring exchange students from Bethlehem. They cannot go to the Tel Aviv airport to come here.
SM: Geez.
RP: We cannot bring doctors or medicine to send there. We can bring our things to Arad, which is the near the Dead Sea, the city. But they do not need that stuff so much. So it's really horrible. So that is one thing that I work with in Burlington. And what was your question again?
SM: It's the other areas of activism you have been involved in.
RP: Activism. Well, then for a while, I am not now anymore, but after the sixties or coming out of part of the sixties was the woman's movement somewhat. And what else would I do? Who do I give my money? Legalization of marijuana. I do not smoke now, but I am for legalization of it.
SM: It's a big issue in California.
RP: Yeah. Well, it's a big issue every place.
SM: Right.
RP: Every place. It makes our kids be criminals. That is what I cannot stand about it. And what else do they give money to? Or I still give money to ... Giving money is different than getting involved. I am not involved in the legalization of marijuana, but I send money to when they send me one of their letters. I do not know. I cannot think.
SM: But you have been a lifelong activist though in many things.
RP: Well, race is the key thing. But I live in white Vermont. That is the problem. There's a lot of racist stuff that goes on here. And in Burlington, we have now become one of ... They have a lot of people from African countries that the US is set up what's called Resettlement Cities and Burlington's one of them. So, we have Bosnians, we have Africans, we have people from Iraq. We have got, oh, people from ... We had a few Cubans and people, but they cannot take the weather here. It's too cold for them. And so, they got transferred to warmer places. Impossible. But I am not working with it. I know some of them, the people, they're in my classes and stuff, but I am not really working it. They get a lot of help from resettlement programs around here. I work with film stuff. Right now, we have an International Film Festival that is happening starting next week, so next week I get to ... And what I do is I care about poor people a lot. For example, I get food from places for the Food Shelf. I go to the apple orchard a friend of mine owns, and I picked a lot of apples that he gave me and I brought it to the Food Shelf for poor people. Just things that I do not do it all the time, it's just something moves me about certain things.
SM: Yeah. You...
RP: Vermont's a really poor place. A lot of us have money and stuff, but there's a lot of poor white people here. And it's really pitiful. A lot of old people that are starving to death and freezing to death in their houses.
SM: That is sad.
RP: I am not doing anything about it, to tell you the truth. I donate something, but I am not really...
SM: Are these people who did not plan for the future?
RP: Are what?
SM: Are these people that did not plan for the future?
RP: No. Vermont is one of the poorest states in the country, number one. It looks so pretty on Christmas cards with skiing and stuff, but it's a very poor place. And for people who, there's no jobs, there's no factories here. There's no big cities. There's food stamps. There's not even stamps anymore. You now get it something that looks like a credit card. So, it does not embarrass you when you go with your kids. It looks like you're paying for it with a credit card. But you have money on a card that looks like a credit card.
SM: You said, and this is it, you said the camera is a weapon. Define what you mean by that.
RP: Well, you use a weapon to be able to have things ... If you take a picture of something that is horrible of a GI ... Well, for example, whoever took that picture of that GI burning down that Vietnamese woman who was holding her child tightly in her arms, burns down her hot by lighting it with a Zippo lighter, that destroyed an image of what the US soldiers were doing in Vietnam for thousands of people when they saw that. That one image on TV, that was a very important image.
SM: I think that was Morley Safer.
RP: Is that who it was?
SM: I think it was Morley Safer, 60 Minutes, I think.
RP: Yeah, it could have been that. See, I do not remember those type of things. You got a good memory for that. I remember the image. I could see him right now. I can see every movement he is doing. And I can see the woman there in her shed crying ... Not in her shed outside of her draw little house or maybe her depot where she kept her rice. I read into it, whatever I read into it.
SM: You also lived in a commune for a while. What was that communal experience?
RP: There's my best friend still to this day.
SM: Huh.
RP: I am serious. That was great. I loved it. You know what? I got up in the morning and guess what? Jimmy Nelsey, who taught economics of the University of Vermont, was cooking us breakfast. And there was this other guy whose name I cannot remember, would take the garbage down to the end of the driveway for his garbage time. And I love living with people. I love having people in my house. I like sharing stuff. And I was an only kid, so I did not have any sisters and brothers.
SM: And that commune, how many years were you in the commune?
RP: Oh, well, I was seen in Putney for maybe, let us say six months. And then, oh, I do not know, years. Let us see. Rain was born and Rain went to grammar school, junior high. I do not know how long. It was a long time. But it changed. It turned out at the end, there were four of us only at the end.
SM: With your kids. Was there any generation gap at all?
RP: I have one daughter and well, she's old now. She's in her thirties. And Rain is in her thirties. What do you mean generation gap?
SM: The generation gap in the sixties, in the seventies, was differences over politics and over the war and counter culture and all that other stuff between [inaudible].
RP: Oh no, they both have good politics. It might be a choice over music. Grateful Dead was big time for both of them.
SM: That is a good choice.
RP: That is a best choice. I love them myself. But my daughter got so into it that she wanted to go off on the road and follow them around, and then would get in trouble and I would have to bail her out of trouble and da, da, da. It was not so much fun for me. But she's fine. I have a granddaughter now. But the sixties, I never got arrested in my life. As I told you, my mother said, "Do not get arrested, escape." And I took that to mean that for real.
SM: It's interesting because Dr. King used to always say that if you really want to stand up for something, you cannot be afraid to be arrested and go to jail for it. And –
RP: My mother says, "You get in jail and you waste around and you're not doing what you should be doing."
SM: Right. Different philosophy. This is it. And that is, what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the generation that grew up after World War II, the boomers, that were sewn down the sixties and seventies. Many of them are Black Panthers and people from all walks life. What do you think when the best history books or historians or sociologists write about this period after the 74 million have passed on? What do you think they might be saying about the generation?
RP: I do not know. You could probably answer that better than me, you're a writer. I do not know. It depends on how the stories are told. Because for example, there's this TV film that was made, it's called The Hippies. Did you see it?
SM: No, I have not. And I am going to check it out.
RP: Well, they interview me. They come to my house. They made me look really good. They had a really good camera guy who knew how to put the right type of plastic on the window. So, the light came in beautifully. They did good makeup job. They did. They really knew what they were doing. They had no politics really on some level. They did not know about anything, but they let me talk. And then I decided to talk about some things I wanted to talk about that were not really necessarily true. And one of them had to do with LSD. We were talking at U UCLA that there was a program at UCLA while I was at UCLA that one of my friends, Lenny Leck, who's no longer, he's died, but he was a psychology professor there. And I was in the class. He was our teaching assistant, and he used to do a lot of LSD at UCLA because they had a program run by the psych department and maybe the army to see what it actually did to people. It was under lab conditions. It was a legalized program, which I never did. But I wanted to talk about how it was legal in those days and about this program and stuff, and the importance of it. So, I knew they would not put it on the camera unless I said I did. And I did not. I lied about it for the camera. And it really got me in trouble because that is the thing that everybody in my town remembered. Everybody loved the program, but I should not have lied about it. I cannot remember what your question was.
SM: Just the lasting legacy. What –
RP: Oh, the legacy. So sometimes, like I said something, I do not know what the last lasting legacy is for that group. We tried to have a better life. We wanted a better life for everyone. We wanted to have all the best for our kids, for every nationality, every race. We wanted there to be equality. We wanted there to be an end of war. We wanted there to be peace and justice and all those things that we wanted from the sixties, from that period of time and a lot of us worked for it and tried to live it, and some of us still do.
SM: Well, that is a perfect answer. And I want to thank you. Somehow in some way, I have got to get two pictures of you, because I have to have pictures.
RP: What about from my website? Can you go to my website?
SM: Yeah, I can go to your website.
RP: Take a look. I do not know what's on there. I do not know.
SM: Well, I will check it out. I know there's a good ... Anyways –
RP: Have you been –
SM: I do not need it right now, but I do need two pictures between now and Christmas.
RP: Well look at my website first and see if you can take anything from that.
SM: Okay.
RP: And if they're not good, there's a whole section there of photographs.
SM: All right.
RP: That start with, oh dear, I have not looked at them.
SM: I know there's a picture of you at an airport. I know that.
RP: At an airport?
SM: Yeah. You're sleeping on luggage.
RP: No, that was not at an airport. You think that was at an airport?
SM: I thought either an airport or a bus station. I do not know.
RP: That is interesting. I wonder what it is.
SM: You were with your girlfriend. There's a girlfriend there. Anyways...
RP: A girlfriend? I am going to my website right now. I think I was sleeping, because I used to fall asleep all the time. I was so tired and if I got some place where I could sleep, I would sleep.
SM: Yep. Well, that is a picture of you sleeping. And then there's a picture of you awake, just two pictures of you with two different females. And you're in looks like a bus station or airport.
RP: Well, I am going to go to that site and try to ... If I can even get my computer to work right.
SM: Back then or now?
RP: No, no. Maybe two years, three years ago.
SM: Oh, geez.
RP: And they said these commi something. I cannot remember what it was. It was on a bunch of really right-wing websites. I am trying to go to my website. I cannot get to my website on my computer.
SM: All right. Well, I guess that is it.
RP: All right. But that picture, that was at the alternative media conference. And we have just gotten driven for two days or something to get to Ann Arbor, and I was falling asleep there.
SM: Huh.
RP: I have been known to fall asleep in very important places. I am tired.
SM: All right.
RP: I just fell right out.
SM: Well, Roz, thank you very much for spending this time, we went over...
(End of Interview)
Description
2 Microcassettes
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Roz Payne
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Payne, Roz B. (Roz Berkman), 1940- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Newsreel (Firm); Political activists--United States; Payne, Roz B. (Roz Berkman), 1940--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Roz Payne is an educator, activist, and founding member of an antiwar filmmakers group called Newsreel. She released a 12-hour DVD set titled <em>What We Want, What We Believe</em> on the Black Panthers. She has a Bachelor's degree from UCLA.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.157a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.157b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
144:08
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01150855113997bf9018c2f0c2f0d325.jpg
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad26895d299177cca24c7cac26baae62.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Thị Kim Phúc Phan, 1963-
Date of Interview
2010-10-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
76:11
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation.</span>
Subject LCSH
Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Kim Phuc
Description
An account of the resource
Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-10-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
76:11