138
10
1775
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6764759c8fbc4d1d2d07ff265112df7e.pdf
24ac46e7c05c0a5b4a53a0ec674c85ee
PDF Text
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BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
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State University of New York
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Binghamton University Department of Music
H A L L O W E E N MIDDAY CONCERT
October 26, 2006 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall
Les oiseaux dans la Char mille (Doll Song).................................................]acques Offenbach
(18191880)
From Les Contes D’Hoffmann
The poet Hoffma nn has come to the house of the inventor Spalanzani to become his
Apprentice. He falls in love with a lovely creature he meets there not realizing she is
a mechanical doll and a creation of this master. Spalanzani introduces the doll at a
reception and speaks of her musical accomplishments.
Amy DeLeo, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
...... Lucy Simon
How Could I Ever Know“?
from The Secret Garden
The musical is based on the novel of the same name written by Frances Burnett
It takes place in England, 1906. The main character Mary is sent to live with her Uncle
Archibald after her parents succumb to Cholera. Archibald’s wife, Lily, died years
before in childbirth, and left behind her husband and her son Collin, who has been
confined to bed as he is crippled. This particular song is sung at the very end of the
musical, before the finale. Archibald has left the home for the Continent. While he is
away, Mary is to be sent to a boarding school by Archibald’s brother Neville, who was
in love with Lily while she was alive and is now trying to take Archibald’s home from
him. Mary sends Archibald a letter urging him to come home. While he is debating
what he should do, Lily comes to him as a ghost and sings “How Could I Ever Know,
convincing him to return home.
Jessica Barkley, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
Dies Irae (chant from the Mass for the Dead).
Anonymous (13™ century)
Paul Schleuse, tenor
a .
Danse Macabre, op. 40 from Poéme Symphonique...................ccoeeuruunneen....... Camille Saint Saens
(18351921)
(Transcribed by the composer for piano duet)
Danse Macabre (Dance of Death) is the third of SaintSaéns’s four symphonic poems. The
image of Death as a fiddler is portrayed in this work. Death appears at midnight every year on
Halloween, and calls forth the dead from their graves to dance for him while he plays his fiddle.
The skeletons dance until the first break of dawn. With the cock’s crow, they must disperse and
vanish until next year. First performed in 1874, this work is based on a French poem by Henry
Cazalis, with the following English translation:
Zig,Zig,Zig Death in a cadence
Striking with his heel a tomb
Death at Midnight plays a dance tun e
Zig Zig Zig on his violin
�The winter wind blows and the night is dark
Moans are heard in the linden trees
Through the gloom white skeletons pass
Running and leaping in their shrouds
Zig Zig Zig each one is frisking
The bones of the dancers are heard to crack
But hist of a sudden they quit the round
They push forward, they fly; the cock has crowed.
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
Wendy Lee, piano
0
Ah! Spietato! (Ah! Cruel One!) .
from Amadigi
.
.
.
... George Frederic Handel
(16851759)
In this aria, Melissa, who is a sorceress, has caught
Amadigi trying to escape from her prison. She is angered by the fact that Amadigi is not
moved by her affection. Melissa makes him realize that he will pay for betraying her loving
soul.
Katrina Cox, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
The Black S
from The Medium
w
a
n Gian Carlo Menotti
(b. 1911)
Act I A fake séance has just taken place in the parlor room of the medium, Madame Flora’s
home. She becomes terrified when she feels a phantom hand clutching her throat and out of fear,
forces all guests to leave at once. Madame Flora blames their mute servant boy, Toby for
playing such a cruel joke on her. In order to calm her drunken nerves, her daughter, Monica
sings her this dark lullaby.
Miriam Wright, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
1l
I
l
i
lI
]
oger Quilter
Weep you no mote . . . . e c c e e e s p e n r e n e e e e e g r u a m d i p r e s e s r s R
(18771953)
Alex Blitstein, tenor
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
The Green Eyed Dragon.........ccceeeenirieeninenenesenesiesesesesseesesseseeesesneneeeneenennenn. Wolseley Charles
(b. 1880)
Mary Aimoniotis, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
Le Bal (The Ball) from Jeux d’ERfants...........ccccoecevevenecicenieneninenenesesiesneeeeneenee.. George Bizet
(18381875)
Composed in 1871, J eux d’Enfants (Children’s Games) is a set of twelve vignettes for piano,
four hands. A delightful collection that displays the composer’s homage to childhood, these
lyrical and colorful pieces describe various children’s activities. Le Bal (The Ball) is the last
one in this set.
l
§
l
l
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
Wendy Lee, piano
li
I
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Original Format
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1 audio disc
Duration
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31:27:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204924">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204924</a>
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Title
A name given to the resource
Halloween mid-day concert, October 26, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-10-26
Description
An account of the resource
Works of Offenbach, Simon, Saint Saëns, Handel, Menotti, Quilter, Charles, Bizet. Held at 1:20 p.m., Oct. 26, 2006, Casadesus Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
DeLeo, Amy
Malinson, Chai-Kyou
Barkley, Jessica
Schleuse, Paul
Lee, Wendy
Cox, Katrina
Wright, Miriam
Blitstein, Alexander
Aimoniotis, Mary
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-10-26
Rights
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In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
4fb4ff59-b0ca-4f67-ad96-2db7995d88c5
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/633e60c13929e625c04e3c87981a6a5e.pdf
8c5f7deddeea1c8f47684fddea5d5f00
PDF Text
Text
U_.) n. _ RR C
REC
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U N I V E R S I T Y
T 0 \ LP)
State University of New York
1 OO ,) 6G
Binghamton University Department of Music
THURSDAY MIDDAY CONCERT
\\2
S¥ CE
COL
November 2, 2006 – 1:20 p.m. Casadesus Recital Hall
Margaret Bonds
(19131972)
(Poems by Langston Hughes)
Three Dream Portraits (1959)
Minstrel Man
Dream Variations
I, Too
Miriam Wright, soprano
Margaret Reitz, piano
Richard Strauss
(18691949)
Traum durch die Dammerung, Op. 29, no. 1
“Meadows vast in the twilight; the sun has set, the stars appear, and now I go to the most
beautiful of women, far across the fields at twilight, deep in the jasmine bower. Through
the twilight, to the land of love I go, hastening not, but led, as by a soft velvet ribbon, through
the twilight to love’s land in a tender blue light.”
Allerseelen, Op. 10, no. 8 . . . . . . c o c c v i e i i e i i i e c i i i c i e c i e e Strauss
“Put the flowers on the table, bring the last red asters, and let us talk of love as we did in
May. Give me your hand–I do not care who watches if you look at me as you did in May.
While every grave is fragrant with flowers on All Souls’ Day, let me hold you near me as
I did in May.”
.. Richard Strauss
Zueignung, op. 10, no. 1.
“You know, sweetheart, that I languish away from you, that love brings heartache ; for this,
thanks. Once I was free and drank wine to my heart’s content and you blessed the cup; for
this, thanks. You expelled my evil spirits till I became what I had never been before : holy,
loving you; for this, thanks!”
Katrina L. Cox, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
Wunsch
“Wish” was written by the poet August Kopish and dedicated to Bettina vonArnim.
This poem is about a lady who wishes that she could take her love and steal away on
a ship to a deserted island. There she would be able to freely kiss her love, he would
be able to make her jewelry from flowers, and they could fish together for food.
Johanna Kinkel
(18101858)
.Clara Schumann
(18191896)
Warum willst du and’re fragen ..
“Why will you question others” was written b y the poet Friedrich Rueckert. This poem is
about a lady asking her love why he chooses to ask other people to tell him if she loves him.
She says that all he has to do is look in her eyes and without words they will show him how
much she loves him.
Aria of the Mother, “All that gold!”,
from Amahl and the Night Visitors (1 951)
(please turn over)
GianCarlo Menotti
(b. 1911)
�The setting is the mother ’s home. She is a poor widow with a disabled child. Earlier
that evening three kings came to their home in search for shelter for the evening. They are
following a star that will bring them to a child born to be King of Kings. When everybody
has fallen asleep she sings this aria.
Maria Aimoniotis, soprano
Margaret Reitz, piano
Se Florindo e fedele
Alessandro Scarlatti
(16701725)
If Florindo is faithful, I ’ll surely fall in love. I can defend my heart from any smiles, sighing,
weeping and imploring, but if he should be faithful, I shall fall in love!
Aria of YumYum, “The sun, whose rays are all ablaze,”
from The Mikado...
Sir William Gilbert (words) and
Sir Arthur Sullivan (music) (18421 900)
Written in the late 18 00’s, the fourteen flamboyant satirical musicals of Gilbert & Sullivan
made fun of high society, the government, the military, and British culture in general.
The Mikado is set in Japan and decries the ruthless and ridiculous decrees of the Mikado,
the Japanese emperor. In this song, the blithe and blissfully selfcentered heroine YumYum
compares herself to nothing less than the sun and moon.
Jana Kucera, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
Fantasia #16 in F Major
Alexander Baron, alto recorder
Friihlingsglaube, Op. 20, no. 2..
George Philip Telemann
(168 l 1 767)
.. Franz Schubert
(17681827)
Mild spring breezes blow again, carrying fresh fragrance with them. Troubled heart, be
hopeful, everything will change! With every passing day, the world becomes more beautiful.
The valleys are full o f flowers; troubled heart, forget thy grief! Everything will change.
Du bist die Ruh, Op. 59, no. 3.
..Franz Schubert
You are tranquillity, and gentle peace ; you are longing, and what stills it. I consecrate to you
my eyes and heart for your dwelling. Enter, and quietly close the door behind you. Your
brightness alone lights up this dwelling–o fill it completely!
Aria of Laetitia, “Steal me, sweet thief,”
from The Old Maid and the Thief (1 939).......cccccccevvvvvincevencnneeneevenneen...
Glan—Carlo Menotti
(b. 191 1)
A beggar comes to th e back door of Miss Todd’s house. Her maid, Laetitia, lets him in.
Desperate for male company, the women persuade him to stay indefinitely and they lavish
food and comforts on him. Later Miss Todd learns of an escaped thief whose description
fits Bob, but she continues to shelter him, even robbing a liquor store in order to bring
him gin. In this aria Laetitia voices her own hopes and frustration with Bob ’s lack of interest.
LaToya Lewis, soprano
Margaret Reitz, piano
A Set for C l a r i n e t . . . . . . c c c . e v v e e r i i i i i e r i e s i e e i c e r i e e s e e M
artino
Allegro – cantabile – allegro
(19312005)
Allegro
Timothy Perry, clarinet
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
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1 audio disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
49:12:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204927">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204927</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thursday mid-day concert, November 2, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-11-2
Description
An account of the resource
Works of Bonds, Strauss, Kinkel, Schumann, Menotti, Scarlatti, Gilbert & Sullivan, Telemann, Schubert, Martino. Held at 1:20 p.m., Nov. 2, 2006, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wright, Miriam
Reitz, Margaret
Cox, Katrina
Mallinson, Chai-Kyou
Aimoniotis, Mary
Baron, Alexander
Lewis, LaToya
Perry, Timothy B
Kucera, Jana
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-11-2
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
cd3cebae-a26d-4eea-879e-772c25f561f3
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60d508c759a0b7392c2c1dc04e0b2b9a.pdf
e871f1160b04226b686456f33ce468cf
PDF Text
Text
U N I V l i t 1 .
[Pd IIZXBA ()PJ
Keciial
‘
l
Y
U‘N 1 x 7 5 R 5 1 T
AOA ».
0 0
0
State University of New York
Jo o l
SPEC t
Binghamton University Department of Music
Thursday Mid Day Concert
November 9, 2006 1:20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall
Sonata for Clarinet and Piano
II. Romanza (in memory of A. Honegger)
.............Francois Poulenc
(18991963)
Timothy Per ry, clarinet
Margaret Reitz, piano
Trauermusrk
Sarah Sterling, viola
Margaret Reitz, piano
Sonata a tre, for Recorder, Violin, and Cello........cc.ccccceeeuveeennne
Adagio
Allegro
Largo
Allegro
Alexander Baron, recorder
Micah BannierBaine, violin
Emily Creo, cello
Sonata in E Flat, Op. 120
Allegro amabile
Melissa Lee, viola
Margaret Reitz, piano
Paul Hindemith
(18951963)
. Georg Philipp Telemann
(16811767)
Johannes Brahms
(18331867)
(please turn over)
�Si mes vers avaient des ailes.....
.......Reynaldo Hahn
(18741947)
My verses would flee sweet and frail,
To your garden so beautiful,
If my verses had wings,
Like a bird!
They would fly, like sparks,
To your smiling hearth,
If my verses had wings,
Like the spirit!
Close to you, pure and faithful,
They would hasten, night and day
If my verses had wings,
Like love!
Aria of Mimi, “Donde lieta,” from La Boheme
. Giacomo Puccini
(18581924)
In Act III, the stage is set outside a tavern near the city gate. It is February in Paris c.
1830, and it is snowing just before dawn. Rodolfo has left Mimi, and she is very ill.
On a cold winter morning she makes her way to an inn where their mutual friend,
Marcello, is staying. She seeks Marcello’s company and advice, and is surprised to
find Rodolfo at the tavern. When the lovers meet Mimi sings this touching farewell.
From the place she left, happy
at your call of love,
Mimi returns alone
to her lonely nest.
She returns once again
to embroider flowers!
Goodbye, without bitterness.
Listen.
, , Tisten
Gather together the few things
that I left scattered around.
Shut in my drawer are
that gold ring
and the prayer book.
Wrap them all in an apron
And I will send the porter...
Mind you. . .under the pillow
there is a pink bonnet.
If you wish, if you wish...
keep it as a remembrance of love!
Goodbye, without bitterness.
Stefanie Sudd uth, soprano
Margaret Reitz, piano
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
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1 audio disc
Duration
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33:05:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204930">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204930</a>
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thursday mid-day concert, November 9, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-11-9
Description
An account of the resource
Works of Poulenc, Hindemith, Telemann, Brahms, Hahn, Puccini. Held at 1:20 p.m., Nov. 9, 2006, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Perry, Timothy
Reitz, Margaret
Sterling, Sarah
Baron, Alexander
Bannier-Baine, Micah
Creo, Emily
Lee, Melissa
Suddith, Stefanie
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-11-9
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
f38b4c0b-9db6-49d2-99b5-e7c74a4f509b
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/41acb8c0d7b5b550d9b6b2cf862c1c61.pdf
aefbd744ccc894766950e1dc61438d76
PDF Text
Text
BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
State University of N ew York
ONIV AeC
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1 “i“ W
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“AN AMERICAN TOUR”
steC C o l –
~~
The
—e — — – — —
m
o
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Wind “Snsemble
a e
D
Jessica Williamson
Associate Conductor
Robert Smith
Music Dire ctor and Conductor
featuring
Emily Alkiewicz, alto saxophone
Amy Natiela, alto saxophone
Sunday, November 12, 2006
3 :00 p.m.
Anderson Center Chamber Hall
�PROGRAM
4
Jessica Willia mson, associat e conductor
Black Granite (1996)
James Hosay
(b.1959)
Chester (1957)
W1ll1am Schuman
(19101992)
Yosemite Autumn (2004) ............ ......cc............M
.....
ark Camphouse
(b. 1954)
Tribute to Rudy W iedoeft (18931940) ............arr.Gunther Schuller
I. Valse Erica (1917)
(b.1925)
II. Saxarella (1923)
III. Saxophobia ( 1920)
Emily Alkiewicz, alto saxophone
Amy Natiela, alto saxophone
= INTERMISS ION
Robert Smith, conductor
Rocky Point Holiday (1969)....................ccceeuveen.........RONn Nelson
(b. 1929)
Zion (L998)
ADA Welcher »
(b.1948)
The Stars and Stripes Forever! (18 97) .................Jo hn Philip Sousa
(18541932)
�FLUTE
Sarah Harper
Julie Liao
Sara Shafer
Jennifer Weintraub*
PICCOL O
ALTO SAXOPHONE
Emily Alkiewicz
. Amy Natiela*
Katherine Navarette
TENOR SAXOPHONE
Melissa Voldan
Steven Inganamort
OBOE
BARITONE
SAXOPHONE
Ephraim Atkinson
CLARINET
Marissa Roe
Lisa Carpinone
Kyle Doyle
Christa Heschke
Melissa Klepper
Andrei Lee
Mark Norman
Richard Silvagni
Dong Soon Shin
Jillian Stark
Maggie Venti
Daniel Zaccarini*
TRUMPE T
BASS CL ARINET
TROMBONE
Heather O’Gara
CONTRABASS
CLARIN ET
Lisa Eppich+
Thomas Osa+
Sinan Pan+
Andrew Sanfratello+
EUPHONIUM
Matt Sanders
TUBA
:
Daniel Brisk@
Katherine Winchell*
PIANO
Karmi KnightWinnig
TIMPAN I
Caleb DeGroote
PERCUSSION
Chris Jacobson*
Jana Kucera
Subin Lim
Kelly Tufo
F HORN
Megan Caruso+
Robert Muller+
Mateusz Rek
William Stallsmith+
Harris Brenner*
Chris Chen
Richard Mokan
Kristen Weiss
fi
* Principal
+ CoPrincipals
@ Graduate Conductor
ABOUT THE MUSIC
Black Granite b y James L. Hosay
Black Granite wa s inspired by the honor and courage displayed by the men and
women o f the U.S. Armed Forces during the Vietnam War. Many of them gave
their lives to prot ect our c ountry w ithout re gard to political o r cultural agendas .
This march was dedicated to all those that gave their lives and whose sacrifices
and heroic deeds went unsung.
James L. Hosay was born in Nashville, Tennessee and was raised in Norfolk,
Virginia. After high school, Hosay joined the United States Army as a trumpet
�player. He eventually landed a job as a Staff Arranger for th e U.S. Army. He
was called upon to write arrangements for many famous artists, foreign
dignitaries and the President of the United States. During his military career,
Hosay received two Meritorious Service Medals and two Army Commendation
Medals.
Chester by William Schuman
l
l
Chester was originally the third movement of an orchestral work called New
England Tritych: Three Pieces after William Billings. Schuman based this work
on William Billings because he was a prominent figure in American music and
served as a teacher, conductor, composer, publisher and promoter of music. The
tune from Chester was composed by Billings and included in a book of tunes and
anthems called The Singing Master ’s Assistant around the time of the American
Revolution. Chester was so popular that it became known throughout the
colonies and was sung around the campfires of the Continental Army. The words
to this popular tune capture the spirit of courage and freedom.
Let tyrants shake their iron rod,
And Slav’ry clank her galling chains
We fear them note, We trust in God
New England’s God forever reigns
The Foe comes on with haughty strides
Our troops advance with martial noise,
Their Vet’rans flee, before our Youths,
And Gen’rals yield to beardless Boys.
What grateful Off’ring shall we bring?
What shall we render to this Lord?
Loud Hallelujah let’ us sing,
And praise His Name on Ev’ry Chord.
Yosemite Autumn by Mark Camphouse
Mark Camphouse wrote Yosemite Autumn after being inspired by the beauty and
grandeur of Yosemite National Park while on vacation with his family. In the
published score, Camphouse writes:
“How could any human not be profoundly moved by such stunning beauty? How could
any American not take immense pride in our nation being so richly blessed with such an
abundance of natural beauty?”
Camphouse portrays these feelings in his music, hoping that his audience with be
able to see the “glow of life” that he saw in Yosemite.
1
h
Mark Camphouse, born in Oak Park Illinois, began composing at the age of
seventeen. Since then, he has published fifteen works for band that are frequently
performed all over the world. Camphouse is currently Professor of Music and
Director of Bands at Racliff University in Virginia.
�Tribute to Rudy Wiedoeft, arranged by Gunther Schuller
Tribute to Rudy Wiedoeft, arranged by Gunther Schuller, was inspired by the
virtuostic compositions of Rudy Wiedoeft. The movements, “Valse Erica,”
“Saxarella,” and “Saxophobia” are all original compositions by Weidoeft that
Schuller has arranged for concert band.
Rudy Wiedoeft was born in Detroit, Michigan and began playing violin and
clarinet at a very young age. He switched to the saxophone soon after moving to
New York City; at that time, the saxophone was still very new. He quickly
became known as a virtuoso saxophone player and popularized the saxophone in
the United States. He also introduced the Cmelody saxophone to mass audiences
and later recorded on the Bflat soprano saxophone as well.
Rocky Point H o l i d a y Ron Nelson
Born in Joliet, Illinois, Ron Nelson began studying piano at age 6 and changed to
organ at age 12. A concerto for piano and band written at age 17 led to his
acceptance at the Eastman School of Music. His composition teachers include
Howard Hanson, Bernard Rogers and Tony Aubin. In 1956, he joined the Brown
University music faculty, serving as chairman from 1963 to 1973 and upon his
retirement in 1993 was named professor emeritus. Nelson’s diverse forms and
styles make his works difficult to categorize. His music can be light, exuberant
and extroverted or somber, profound and personal. Nelson’s prolific output
includes two operas, a mass, a cantata, an oratorio, television and film music, 90
choral works, and over 40 instrumental works, half of which were written for
wind band.
Rocky Point Holiday was commissioned in 1969 and was Nelson’s first major
composition for wind band. Conductor Frank Bencriscutto wanted an
“Americana” work to open his University of Minnesota Concert Band’s tour of
Russia. The transparent orchestration was a result of Nelson hearing the Eastman
Wind Ensemble under Fennell and has been said to mark a change in the general
philosophy of wind band scoring. The piece was written during a vacation at the
Rocky Point, Rhode Island seaside resort.
Zion by Dan Welcher
Born in Rochester, N.Y., Dan Welcher is one of the mostplayed composers of his
generation having written more than 100 works. A bassoonist and pianist, he
carned degrees from the Eastman School of Music and the Manhattan School of
Music. He was principal bassoonist with the Louisville Orchestra and served as
assistant conductor of the Austin Symphony Orchestra from 1980 to 1990. He has
conducted the premier of over 120 new works. Welcher has taught theory and
�composition at The University of Louisville, the Aspen Music Festival and
currently holds the Lee Hage Jamail Professorship in Composition at the
University of Texas at Austin.
Zion is the last in a series of three works for wind ensemble that includes The
Yellowstone Fires and Arches. Collectively called Three Places In The West, they
draw their inspiration from the national parks in the western United States. They
reflect the feelings the composer had while in the parks rather than being literally
descriptive. Dedicated to the memory of Aaron Copeland, Zion was
commissioned in 1994 by the wind ensembles o f the University of Oklahoma,
The University of Texas and the University of Texas at Austin.
I
[YA
l
3
5
{
The Stars a nd Stripes For ever! by John Philip Sousa
John Philip Sousa was a conductor, a composer, an arranger, and a businessman
as well as a patriot. Born in 1854 in Washington, D.C., Sousa ’s parents
encouraged his interest in music. He studied piano, flute, comet, euphonium,
trombone, alto horn, theory, harmony and voice along with his primary
instrument, the violin. His father was a trombonist in the U.S. Marine Band and
Sousa was allowed to occasionally rehearse with the band becoming an apprentice
musician in the Marine Corps at age 13. He was appointed leader of the Marine
Band in 1880 and after 12 years in that position organized his own professional
band. The Sousa Band was famous in the U.S., Canada and Europe performing at
at the Paris Exposition in 1910, making 4 European tours and world tour in 191 1.
Although most well know as the “March King,” Sousa is credited with 15
operettas, 136 marches, 2 descriptive pieces, 70 songs, 7 other vocal works, 11
waltzes, 12 dance pieces, 14 humoresques, 27 band fantasies, 3 orchestra
fantasies, 6 incidental pieces, 4 overtures, 2 concert pieces, 4 instrumental solos,
12 trumpet and d rum pieces and over 300 arrangements and transcriptions.
“Aboard the Teutonic, as it steamed out of the harbor on my return from Europe
in 1896, came one of the most vivid incidents of my career. As I paced the deck,
absorbed in thought, suddenly I began to sense the rhythmic beat of a band
playing within my brain. It kept on ceaselessly, playing, playing, playing.
Throughout the whole tense voyage, that imaginary band continued to unfold the
same themes, echoing and reechoing the most distinct melody. I did not transfer
a note of that music to paper while I was on the steamer, but when we reached the
shore, I set down the measures that my brainband had been playing for me, and
not a note of it was ever changed. The composition is known the world over as
“The Stars and Stripes Forever” a nd is probably my most popular march.”
John Philip Sousa
‘i‘
J4
�ABOUT THE PERFORMERS
ROBERT G . SMITH holds a Bachelor of Science. in Music Education from
Hartwick College, a Master of Music in Conducting from Bingha mton University
and is a candidate for the Doctor of Musical Arts in Music Education from Boston
University. Prof. Smith studied conducting with F rederick Fay Swift, Thurston
Dox, Timothy Perry, Robin Linaberry, Jo hn Graulty and Mariusz Smolij. He
conducts the annual Triple Cities TubaChristmas and is the former conductor of
the Maine Community Band, the oldest band of its kind in the United States. He
has guest conducted allcounty and community bands throughout central New
York as well as the Goshen College (IND) Wind Ensemble and Orchestra. An
active performer, he currently plays principal euphonium with the Southern Tier
Concert Band and tuba with the Brass Nickel quintet and the Crown City Brass
sextet. Professor Smith is the immed iate past president of the Broome Co unty
Music Educators Association and recipient of the 2005 BCMEA Distinguished
Service Award. Professional memberships include : The Broome County Music
Educators Association, the New York State School Music Association, the Music
Educators National Conference, The National Band Association, The Association
of Concert Bands, The Conductors Guild, The World Association of Symphonic
Bands and Ensembles, The College Band Directors National Association and the
International Tuba and Euphonium Association.
JESSICA W ILLIAMSO N holds a Bachelor of Music in Music Education from
SUNY College at Fredonia and is currently a candidate for the Master of Music in
Conducting from the University of Binghamton. Her conducting teachers include:
Timothy Perry, Patrick Jones, David Rudge and Rudolph Emilson. Jessica is the
director of the Whitney Point Middle School Concert Band, Sixth Grade Band
and Jazz Band. She has performed with the Long Island Winds, the Southern Tier
Concert Band and with the EVEA Youth Commission of Germany. Memberships
include New York State School Music Association, the National Association of
Music Educators and the BroomeCounty Music Educators Association.
Mrs. Williamson’s performance is in pa rtial satisfaction of the requirements for
the Master o f Music degree in Conducting.
EMILY AL KIEWICZ is from Hopewell Junction, NY. She has been a member
of the Binghamton University Wind Ensemble for 3 years. She is also a member
of the Binghamton University Saxophone Quartet. Emily studied with Jim
Trainor and Steven Kieley during junior high and high school, she now st udies
under April Lucas. Emily is graduating in May 2007 and seeks a BA in
sociology.
�Coming
“Cents
Thursday, Novem ber 16 – MidDay Concert – 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital
hall free
F riday, November 17 – Trio Amici – 8:00 p.m. – Casadesus Recital Hall $9
general public; $7 faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
Sunday, November 19 – Music of the World : Afrika Music and Dance – 3 :00
p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater $9 general public; $7 faculty/staff/seniors;
free for students
Sunday, November 19 – Clarinet Studio Recital – 7:30 p.m. – Casadesus
Recital Hall – free
Tuesday, November 28 University Percussion Ensem ble – 8:00 p.m. –
Anderson Center Chamber Hall – free
Thursday, November 30 – MidDay Concert 1 :20 p.m. – Casadesus Recital
Hall free
F riday, Decem ber 1 – Flute Studio Recital – 10:15 a.m. – Casadesus Recital
Hall – free
Friday, December 1 – Elizabethan Madrigal Feaste – 6:30 p.m. – Old Union
Hall – Tickets: $38 general public; $20 students with ID
Saturday, December 2 – Flute Ensemble Recital 12 noon – Casadesus Recital
Hall free
Saturday, December 2 – Elizabethan Madrigal Recital – 6:30 p.m. Old
Union Hall – Tickets: $38 general public; $20 students with ID
Sunday, December 3 – University Symphony Orchestra – 3:00 p.m. –
Osterhout Concert Theater $9 general public; $7 faculty/staff/seniors; free for
students
Thursday, Decem ber 7 – Ja zz Mid Day Concert with guest artist, Bruce
Johnstone – 1 :20 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater – free
Thursday, Decem ber 7 Ja zz Ensem ble with guest artist, Bruce Johnstone –
8:00 p.m. – Osterhout Concert Theater $9 general public; $7
faculty/staff/seniors; free for students
]
�
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Coverage
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1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
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Original Format
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1 audio disc
Duration
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50:49:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204933">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204933</a>
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Title
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An American Tour, November 12, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-11-12
Description
An account of the resource
Works of Hosay, Schuman, Sousa, Camphouse, Schuller, Nelson. Held at 3:00 p.m., Nov. 12, 2006, Anderson Center Chamber Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williamson, Jessica
Smith, Robert
Alkiewicz, Emily
Natiella, Amy
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-11-12
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
d0c10766-eec3-47af-acb6-d1551782ac2c
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/80a33c3101b8b6e0fdd96d85f68c3b26.pdf
3fa8ebdafd9ab599f91449f4993a6817
PDF Text
Text
N i v Re
BINGHAMTON
U N I V E R S I T Y
State University of New York
Binghamton University Department of Music
THURSDAY MIDDAY CONCERT
November 16, 2006 – 1:20 p.m. Casadesus Recital Hall
C
O
L
Aria of Donna Elvira, “In quali eccessi...Mi tradi,” ........cccceceveevrnnnrenennssneenennnenn..
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
from D o n Giovanni
(17561791)
Donna Elvira vents her feelings of pity, betrayal, and love for Don Giovanni:
In what excesses, o gods!
In what horrible and tremendous misdeeds
The wretch is entangled.
Ah! No! Heaven’s justice and anger cannot be delayed.
I already sense the fatal lightning bolt falling on his head!
I see the deadly abyss (of hell) opening up...
Wretched Elvira, what contrasting feelings in your bosom are born!
Why these sighs and these sufferings?
That ingrate betrayed me, made me so unhappy!
When I feel torment, my heart speaks of vengeance.
But when I see the danger he is in, my heart starts to throb...
And I still have pity for him.
Katrina Cox, soprano
ChaiKyou Mallinson, piano
L a S C A N A A I N A V E . . . . c v e i i i i i i i e i i e i e i e s e r
Swedish Folk Song
Vermelandsvisa
Melodie Danoise
P
e
r
c
y GTAINGET
(18821961)
Hakan Tayga Hromek, cello
Margaret Reitz, piano
Suite for Cello and Jazz Piano Trio .
Ballade
Cello Fan
SCATA
M
I OUCKE o
II.
Ir
1.
Allegro
Pocket Sonata.
1. Improvisation
2. Modal Blues
3. In Rhythm
Stephen Stalker, cello
Margaret Reitz, piano
u
Modéré
Brazileira
Concerto No. 1 in f
.Claude Bolling
(b. 1930)
v
i
r Milhaud
(18921974)
Gregg Ackerman, clarinet
Margaret Reitz, piano
m
i
n
o
r
C
Heather Boland, clarinet
Margaret Reitz, piano
a
r
l Maria von Weber
(17861826)
Alec Templeton
(19091963)
Bethany Bonhof, clarinet
Margaret Reitz, piano
Concertino for two cellos and piano, op. 72 ......cccccevevceerieriiniienienieeieneneeeeseseeseseseeseeeeneeneene.
BeImhard Romberg
Andante Grazioso
Rondo con Allegrezza
(17671841)
Stephen Stalker, cello
Hakan Tayga Hromek, cello
Ma rga ret Reitz, piano
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
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Original Format
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1 audio disc
Duration
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46:13:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204936">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204936</a>
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Title
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Thursday mid-day concert, November 16, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-11-16
Description
An account of the resource
Translation of one work included in accompanying program.
Works of Mozart, Grainger, Bolling, Milhaud, von Weber, Templeton, Romberg. Held at 1:20 p.m., Nov. 16, 2006, Casadesus Recital Hall.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cox, Katrina
Mallinson, Chai-Kyou
Tayga-Hromek, Hakan
Reitz, Margaret
Stalker, Stephen
Ackerman, Gregg
Boland, Heather
Bonhof, Bethany
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2006-11-16
Rights
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In copyright
Type
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sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
577ad096-023f-4f8b-a5d6-eed4d082b464
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b2eb868cbafa34691436b412eb509154.pdf
8c77ea0399f30dbd42a1e7e87c65f6e5
PDF Text
Text
AN
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HARPUR JAZZ MIDDAY PROGRAM
December 7, 2006
Pe]
;
Featuring:
Bruce Johnstone
Program selected from the following:
. Steve Swallow
Let’s Eat..
Second Handy MOLION.....ciiciricnnnnrccniencsnnnessenssssssssesssssssnsssensssssnssssssannsansanenness
‘
l
Swallow
Bite Your Grandmother .
Steve Swallow
Five Spot After Dark
Benny Golson
‘ 1
A
Who’s Got Rhythm? (Bruce Does).
Al Hamme
in’ f or B aroque
Gom
A l H amme
Longing for Bahia
.Dorval Caymmi
Stolen
m Nelson
11 1 ]£
Bruce Johnstone Baritone Saxophone
Albert Hamme: Tenor Sax & Flute
Mike Carbone: Alto Sax & Flute
Camille Thurman: Soprano Sax
Dino Losito: Piano
Andrew Williams: Bass
Joe Roma: Drum set
�Bruce Johnstone
Bruce Johnstone b.Sept 1st 1943 Wellington New Zealand.
Bruce Johnstone’s first exposure to American audiences was as a member of Maynard
Ferguson’s band in 1972. He recorded three albums with the Ferguson Band which, along with
live concert appearances placed him in the #3 spot in Down Beat Magazine’s Readers Poll
behind Gerry Mulligan and Pepper Adams. He held this position for the next ten years.
Leaving Ferguson in 1976, he moved to N.Y., signed with Arista’s new Freedom label and with
coleaders Rick Petrone and Joe Corsello formed the new Jazz Fusion band New York Mary.
Both albums produced by this band met with great critical success. While in N.Y. Bruce also
recorded with Anthony Braxton (Creative Orchestra Music 1976) with blues singer Luther
Allison. (The horn section being Michael and Randy Brecker, Lew DelGatto and Bruce
Johnstone.) In 1977 Bruce joined The Woody Herman Band and toured and recorded with the
band until April 1978.
Since 1978, he has lived and worked in Western N.Y.(primarily Buffalo N.Y. and Erie PA) and
maintains a busy concert/clinic schedule including appearances with The Dave Stevens Big
Band, The Buffalo Brass, The Erie Philharmonic Pops, The Bemus Bay Pops, his own small
groups and with The Don Menza Octet. He is currently Director of Jazz Studies
at SUNY Fredonia.
Prior to coming to the States with Ferguson, Bruce had had solid musical careers in
Copenhagen Denmark where he played with Ben Webster and Dexter Gordon. London
England where he was a studio musician. Sydney Australia where he was a studio musician and
Assistant Musical Director at a prominent Sydney Nightclub called Chequers, and Wellington
New Zealand, where he was a member of the NZBC Radio Big Band while still in High School.
Bruce plays a Selmer MkVI Baritone with a Lawton 8*B mouthpiece and uses Rico 3 1/2 reeds.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 audio disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
31:31:00
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204939">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204939</a>
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jazz improv, December 7, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-12-7b
Description
An account of the resource
Title information taken from 2006/2007 academic year performances list.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Carbone, Michael
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-12-7
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
592b93c1-1b78-4740-b1b7-266f7462c86a
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/790e48d1d8b5c4a6cf321e11776a311c.pdf
4c37910a621265c95cb4e12e04ac6194
PDF Text
Text
D w T e D(Le
Y ; (‘>('\r_e\
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O71 Cou The Binghamton University Music
Department, TimeWarner Cable, and the
SS
Discovery Center are proud to present
[4
Z e E C
D E P A R T M E N T
Children’s Concert: MAKING MOVIE MUSIC
University Symphony Orchestra
Timothy Perry, Director
The Percussion Family: Drums, Mallet Instruments, Unpitched Percussion
Auburn RunOut
Ernest Muzquiz
The Brass Family: Trumpet, French Horn, Trombone, Tuba
Fanfare for the Play ‘La Peri’
Paul Dukas
The Woodwind Family: Flute & Piccolo, Oboe & English Horn, Clarinet & Brass Clarinet, Bassoon
Noble
Harold Noble
Mayer’s Dance from Buntingford..............occceeeveevevervensenienenesesssiesieseeseesessessessessessenenneen.
The String Family: Violin, Viola, Violoncello, Contrabass, Piano, Harp
Holst
Gustav Holst
The Dargason, from St. Paul ’s SUite.............coveevevienenesesineseniesiesnesesresesscssesensenenneenne.
Making Movie Music
Setting: The When and Where
The Polar Express Suite ..
Believe, The Polar Express
When Christmas Comes to Town, Spirit of the Season
Alan Silvestri and Glen Ballard
arr. Jerry Brubaker
Character: The Who
Suite from Beauty and the Beast.........
B e l l e Be Our Guest – Beauty and the Beast
..Music by Alan Menken
arr. Danny Troob
Action: The What
Selections from Pirates of the CaribBean............uueeeeeeeeecreeeeeeieeireeeeeeieeecseesee Badelt
arr. Ted Ricketts
“Disney’s Beauty and the Beast Orchestral Suite”
Arranged by Danny Troob
Music by Alan Menken
© 1992 Wonderland Music Co., Inc. (BMI)
1
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�The Binghamton University Symphony Orchestra
Timothy Perry, Director
Flute/Piccolo
Erica L e o
Missy Voldan
Valerie Spiller
Oboe/English Horn
Marissa Ludwig
Maxwell Rosenberg
Clarinet
Percussion
Ai Karasawa
' Caleb De Groote
Khristine Jackson
Mark Turley
Keyboard
Stefano Pena
Harp
Alexander Vincenzi
Bethany B onhoff
Gregg Ackerman
Heather Boland
Leigh Collins
Mary Schappert
Bassoon
Micah BannerBaine
Yang Hu
Jennifer Paull
Liz Baker
Griffin Sargent
Erika Chin
Akira Maezawa
Dan Goldberg
Elizabeth Sterling
Kevin Acunto
Alexander Wong
Alexandra K. Brutus
Eileen Tam
Mayra Rodriguez
David Weinberg
Eleanor Sonley
French Horn
Alexa Weinberg
Diana Amari
Matt Rek
Robert Muller
William Stallsmith
Trumpet
William Gilchrest
Trombone
Daniel J. Brisk
Hikiru Naito
Richard Mokan
Tuba
Katherine Winchell
Violin I
Yiolin II
Marie Mizuno
Hyobin Lee
Janet Kim
Christina Laube
Molly Ariotti
Jennifer Liebman
Richard Goldman
Amy Honigsberg
Johnny Pang
Juliann Taylor
Emily Krecko
Suji Lim
Rachel Jacobs
Adrienne Martian
Viola
Danielle So fer
Christopher Fiore
Melissa Le e
Joseph Gili berti
Sarah Sterling
Ted Gramiak
Abigail Fabro
Jeffrey Ko hn
Beth Vayshenker
Macia Gravelding
Kerry Conway
Janet Ievins
Violoncello
Daniel Copel
Ryan Joyce
Emily Creo
C. MacKenzie Wen
John Choi
Jim Glasgow
Nicholas Capone
Jennifer Aracena
Contrabass
Serena Murray
Julian Goetz
Andrew Eiche
David Katz
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1960's - present
Title
A name given to the resource
Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
Subject
The topic of the resource
Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
Description
An account of the resource
Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: PDF / Rosetta
PDF with Rosetta audio/video link
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 audio disc
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:02:30
Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204945">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204945</a>
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Children's concert: Making Movie Music, October 13, 2006
Recital Tape 2006-10-13
Description
An account of the resource
Works of Muzquiz, Dukas, Noble, Holst, Sylvestri/Ballard, Menken, Badelt.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Perry, Timothy
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-10-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
0f5e4c34-5686-4afb-9d1b-36a5e67e49f9
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/42646d95192a07a5fd4680a0da1ab574.jpeg
019b5a9eb59cfeac4d3f555856175032
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b36b14bd398cfaa6e534e583cb0756a4.mp3
44b1cba641c4cf09468fa281510249ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Bruce Schulman
Biographical Text
Dr. Bruce Schulman is the William E. Huntington Professor of History at Boston University. Born in New York City, Dr. Schulman is the author of three books and the editor or co-editor of five others. His teaching and research concentrate on the history of the modern United States, particularly on the relationships between politics and broader cultural change. Dr. Schulman received the B.A. summa cum laude with Distinction in History from Yale University and his M.A. and Ph.D. from Stanford University.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:29:51
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Date of Digitization
11 February 2022
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Andrew Jackson; Corruption; Yale University; 1960s; Free Speech Movement; 1970s; Ronald Reagan; Idea; 1950s; Richard Nixon; Boomer generations; Disco; Students; University; Protest.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Bruce Schulman
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f1d61fcdf18d23844db8b7742c40309.jpeg
f47565f41ecc3ab999a7d4bfdc3020d9
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/914d7944c5f3373f0f0dce1d0f2cbb9f.MP3
6a121421de28ede3d56b6443c0f5f98c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
24 June 2022
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Nancy Bristow
Biographical Text
Dr. Nancy K. Bristow is a Professor of History at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington. Her research focuses on the area of 20th-century American history, with an emphasis on race and social change. Dr. Bristow is the author of several books including American Pandemic: The Lost Worlds of the 1918 Influenza Epidemic and Making Men Moral: Social Engineering during the Great War. She received her Bachelor's degree from Colorado College, and both her Master's degree and Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:29:57
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Digital file
Date of Digitization
24 June 2022
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Kent State, Jackson State, Blacks, Campus, Books, Students, History, Young lives, Shootings, Power, Martin Luther King, Mississippi, Boomer generation; 1960s.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Nancy Bristow
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 24 June 2022
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM: 00:01
Nancy Bristow.
NB: 00:01
Okay, we are all set. Can you hear me? I can hear you perfectly.
SM: 00:07
Okay, great. I always start out with my first question, finding out a little bit about the person I am interviewing. Could you tell me about your background, where you grew up, your early influences, your family, and early interests?
NB: 00:21
Sure.
SM: 00:21
And high school, college and-and how did you pick history as your career?
NB: 00:27
But what, sure. So, I was born in Portland, Oregon in 1958. So, I grew up during the period of the Vietnam War and the civil rights struggles, but was just a child during it. I was not aware that I was interested in history as a young person. In fact, if you told my high school history teacher, I went to Beaverton High School in Portland, Oregon, if you asked him what I became, and then told him it was a history professor, I think it would, would cause of heart failure. He could not have imagined, if I had a course that I hated, it was history. But, that was because I had not gone to college yet. I went to Colorado College, which is a small liberal arts college in Colorado Springs, at a remarkable undergraduate education. And I had planned to major in German, but turned out not really to have the capacity for that. And so by chance, I took a history course because I thought it had a really neat name, it was England Age of Kings. And I thought, well, that sounds cool. And it changed my life, the Professor George Drake, who went on actually to be the president of Grinnell College, was my professor for that class, that I discovered that history was about people, and about what happens to us, and helps us understand who we are now. And that course, it literally within a couple of days, my life path was set I suppose, but I did not know it then. But I just, absolutely loved the class, had a kind of intellectual excitement that I had not really felt with any of the other classes, I had taken though I was a successful student all the way along, I thought I would major after I gave up on German, I thought I would do English, but always felt sort of ungrounded in that field. And history gave me that sort of grounding in the lives of actual people, people that had really lived the lives that, that you know, I was reading about, and ultimately would write about. In terms of early influences, my family has been tremendously important to who I became, I think, reaching all the way back to, to great grandparents that I knew who were working class people from Pittsburgh. And they raised up my father who was fortunate enough to get to go to college, as did my mother, they were both first generation to college students, that we did not have the language for that at the time. But both came from working class families, my mom's mother came from Ireland, was an immigrant. And both of them I think, were really serious about education. So for instance, when I went off to college, my parents gave me a credit card, which I could use for any kind of emergency, or to buy books, could just use it, for emergencies-
SM: 03:01
[chuckles] Yes.
NB: 03:01
-the kind of empathy that is necessary to be successful in the craft. And I think it can be learned, I was lucky that I think I learned that as a, a pretty young person. My grandma was a church going woman and who really, lived the Christian ethos, I think, in a way that that so many, perhaps do not, she really did embody that. I lived it seriously. I was not thinking of it through a Christian lens, but she very much was kind of, you know, just always cared about other people and really looked after other people. And I think my parents instilled in us the sense that, that was an important part of being a human being and second, that you are not anybody better than anybody else. And do not go fooling yourself because of what you do for a living, or where you live, or what language you speak does not make you better than someone else. And I think that was also really formative for me. -and books, and they just really have this deep investment in the value of education. And they paid for college for myself and both of my siblings, which is an extraordinary gift, not as expensive a gift as it would be in 2022. But nevertheless, a real contribution to the lives of their children, again I think it speaks to the value that they both placed on education, and the things that it would make possible for you. It had been a really meaningful experience for both of them, and I wanted us to have that same experience. But the other thing I think they gave me was a real sense of, and this goes to my grandparents as well, a sense of the importance of every, every human being. And again, I did not have language for it growing up. But, a real profound concern for injustice, and a preoccupation with-with the wellbeing of other people was really instilled in me through my grandparents and my parents. And I think it makes you a better historian because it helps you begin to have-
SM: 04:03
I can see that as a scholar that what you have done in this book, your, you care about everybody. I, you know, it is just a tremendous book, you went to Berkeley too, correct?
NB: 05:00
I did. I got my PhD at Berkeley, my masters and my PhD. I had not known what I would do when I finished college. And it was really a singular lack of imagination that took me to graduate school. I thought, well, I will just keep studying since I like doing this. And, then I was very lucky. Berkeley was good for me. I had some very, very valuable educational experiences there, obviously with people like Lawrence Levine and Paula Fast were my primary advisors. [crosstalk] But it was more important almost just to be in the Berkeley context, which was a place with a lot of activism-
SM: 05:38
Yes.
NB: 05:38
-and a community that was very, very diverse. And that was really good for me because I had grown up in Portland, Oregon, which is a, you know, relatively small town back in the day and still quite residentially segregated, as I was growing up.
SM: 05:50
Did you take any courses from Harry Edwards or Todd Gatlin?
NB: 05:54
No, I did not, I did not. They were not in my, then this is one of the things I regret about my education, is it was not as interdisciplinary as it would be if I did it again. So they were over in, you know, psychology or excuse me, sociology, so it was not even occurring to me to go over and take courses from them. And I was not studying the (19)60s yet. It is the other thing.
SM: 06:14
Right.
NB: 06:15
I think was intimidated by the subject matter, because I had lived it and it was still pretty fresh in my mind, not in a, in an adult kind of way. But I knew that it mattered a lot to me, and I was not ready to take that on. Like, I do not think I understood that at the time. But it is clear to me now because I love teaching the (19)60s. But I did not write about the (19)60s Initially, I wrote about the First World War era, because I think it had some of the same kinds of issues.
SM: 06:40
Now you are also, in terms of, you are the chair of the African American History Department?
NB: 06:46
No-no-no-no-no-no, I am, was the chair of the History Department. My term ends on like, next week, Thursday, for which I am very grateful. So I am just a professor of history. There is an African American studies program that I teach in, but I am not the chair of it.
SM: 07:03
Okay, very good. Could you give a brief description of your books, the other books that you have written before this current one, just your scholarship up to this point?
NB: 07:15
Sure. My first book was called "Making Men Moral: Social Engineering during the Great War," and my purpose in that book was really to explore how the military conceptualized the relationship between its fighting forces and the civilian population. And to get at that I studied, one particular agency that had its purpose, the creation of moral crusaders would be the kind of language I might use. That, they were thinking about the soldiers through a very particular lens, and what that crusader would look like had very particular sort of social and moral positioning. And so, the agency I studied, how does its job creating these soldiers who would be as pure in body and mind as you were in spirit, I mean, just this, really wanting to create an ideal kind of American so it was sort of an Americanizing program for all the American troops through recreation, social hygiene, education, and ultimately law enforcement, as needed. So, it was a really interesting study about the power of the state, and what it looks like when the state has the power to implement its moral vision. And, really a piece of sort of my interest in the progressive era. And then my second book, looked at the influenza pandemic of 1918. So, staying in the same time period, interested still in the role of the state in the lives of individuals, but looking at it in a particular, sort of social catastrophic moment. Turns out, I am really interested in the idea of, sort of culture and catastrophe, and how we as a people, as a community, as a nation engage with, and work our way through, and ultimately remember or forget these major moments in our history. So that one, I was really interested in the social experience of American people during this pandemic, and the ways in which social identity really differentiated the experiences. So, it mattered whether you were male or female, it also mattered profoundly as it did in our current pandemic, what your racial and class situation was.
SM: 09:19
Yes.
NB: 09:19
It also mattered whether you were a healthcare professional, if you were a doctor or a nurse, because those were such gendered positions at the time. And then also really interested in how public health navigated both popular interest in being saved and then ultimately, popular frustration with the ongoing difficulties of the pandemic. So both an interest in the social experience, and the sort of, role of social identity, but also interested in the sort of, state civilian relationships as well. So, those two are connected because of the time period because of my interest in, in issues around social reform, issues around the state, and the individual. And also really interested, increasingly across time in the meaning of race, and the meaning of class in people's lives. And the reality that even in these moments when we talk about being a singular nation, right, we are unified by the world, we are unified by the pandemic, the ways in which that is simply not true.
SM: 10:22
This leads into the new book, which is, "Steeped in the Blood of Racism." What drew you to the Jackson State story? And I love your title too, because the subtitle "Black Power, Law and Order and the 1970s Shootings at Jackson State College." I just did an interview yesterday with Mr. Ruffner who took pictures at Kent State.
NB: 10:47
Right. Right.
SM: 10:47
And the fourth and he talked about, we talked about the whole concept of law and order that was happening at Kent State with Governor Rhodes and-
NB: 10:55
Oh, that is right.
SM: 10:56
-and all those people there they were, you know, some of the students were so called criminals and all this other stuff.
NB: 11:02
Right. So, criminalizing of the young people is one of the things that the two stories have in common.
SM: 11:07
Right.
NB: 11:08
So I, I came to the Jackson State story, actually, by way of interest in, I was really interested in state's repression in the Black Power era. And my original plan was to write a book that looked at a series of events in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s: the murder of Black Panthers, the, assault on civilians during civil disorders, the treatment of Black college students. So, looking at different contexts within which the state is enacting violence against Black people, and using new language, the language as you suggested of law and order to justify it. For the wake of the civil rights legislation of the mid (19)60s, the sort of straight out you can just murder Black people does not work any longer. It does not mean that the murders will not continue to happen, but that the state will need new justifications for that kind of behavior. And Jackson State, it was a really classic case of it. I had planned to write this larger book and then an editor at-at Oxford asked if I wanted to, write on a single one, and create a volume that was more focused. And I was like, "Well, yeah," and I have started with Jackson State, so let us go with that one. I got onto Jackson State, though, to do justice to him, a student of mine and one of my courses, a young man named John Moore, wrote a paper on the shootings at Jackson State and it really intrigued me, because they had not known much about the shootings prior to his paper. And it really inspired me to want to know a lot more about what took place there. And the discovery that this was really racial violence, this was, you know, the state perpetuating violence against Black bodies, which it had done, you know, with a history reaching all the way back to slavery. And so, I was really interested in exploring how the shootings were justified because, of course, no one ever did, no one was ever prosecuted for the crimes. No one, ever you know, they, it-it is just a horrific injustice that went, you know, completely, a pursuit of justice was-was unsatisfied, I will-will say that, so interested both in how that could be possible, when this was clearly murder. And then secondly, really interested in why so few people my age, remember what happened to Jackson State, and everybody knows Kent State. And so, that really telling this as a story of racial violence and the ways in which white Americans do not remember racial violence so, that each police shooting can be treated in a sense as a one off, right. Trayvon Martin should not have had a hoodie on or he would have been fine.
SM: 13:43
Right.
NB: 13:43
Eric Garner should not have been selling illegal, so you know, go down the list of things. Tamir Rice should not have been playing with a plastic gun. Right? No, the fact is that each of these people were part of a long arc of history in which we talk about needing to pursue law and order, and we do it as a justification for, the control of, of Black citizens.
SM: 14:04
In the state-
NB: 14:05
I was really interested in that.
SM: 14:06
-the state of Mississippi and that whole period, I just did not read off of another person, on the Freedom Summer, and what was happening in Mississippi at that particular time, and in (19)64. But, this whole business of Jackson, understanding the history of Jackson in conjunction with this school that had many different names over the years since its founding.
NB: 14:17
Yeah. Yep.
SM: 14:28
And I, just imagine what African American students were going through, through that whole period-
NB: 14:35
Right.
SM: 14:36
-living in that community.
NB: 14:37
Right. And that is the thing that I think is really interesting about Jackson State, which is, right, it is a historically Black university at that time, a college within a state system run by a higher education board that is all white.
SM: 14:51
Yes.
NB: 14:52
And, that wants nothing more than continue to control these Black students. They have to have a good Black school. So, they put limited resources into this institution, it is always under resourced, even today I suspect it is still deeply under resourced. But so, they have this institution, but they are going to control these young people to the best of their ability. So, they have president after president who really keeps a lid on any kind of activism and even up into the 1960s. You know, students who do protest in the early 1960s who were Jackson State students are expelled, if they are caught, for instance as, as supporting the Tougaloo nine in the early 1960s, at a sit-in locally, those kids are thrown out of school, the Ladner sisters, for instance. And so, you have a campus that is sitting right on the edge of Lynch Street. And again, that is a name that may sound, may resonate differently to our ears, but it is actually named for senator John Lynch, who was a Black, a Black representative in the U.S. Congress that was a Black man out of Mississippi during Reconstruction. So, John R. Lynch Street is actually a name with some pride behind it. But right on Lynch Street, literally a block off campus, is the place where the major NAACP rallies are taking place when Jackson is up in arms, when African Americans are really protesting in Jackson, and, you know, the city is, is, you know, in the midst of a, of a, of a revolt by the Black community, its headquarters are, you know, a block off campus.
SM: 16:28
Wow.
NB: 16:29
So, you have kids who are trying to navigate that. So, the institution is seen as, sort of very repressive, and ultimately regressive, that Tougaloo gets all the praise for having been activists. But in fact, there were always students at Jackson State who were pushing the edges of, of the envelope, so to speak, some of them being expelled as a result. And starting in 1967, the school gets a new president, who really does begin to give students more voice. He reestablishes the student government, the student newspaper begins to have an actual voice to talk about, you know, issues that are social political issues. So, it is really an institution and a transition time in 1970, it is still primarily kids coming first generation to college, many of them coming off of farms, you know, the children of sharecroppers, so kids who cannot afford to get in trouble, kids whose whole families are counting on them, to get an education, and to help the family. So, it is a very, as you say, unimaginable the kind of tensions that these young people were living in the midst of, even as what they were trying to do is get an education.
SM: 17:36
You did a great job on explaining all of this. And if, if, if a young African American student got involved in an activist activity there that he could be kicked out of school, or it could affect his remaining at the school because he wants to graduate, get a job, and for a long period of time the school is involved in preparing young people to be, I think teachers in Black schools.
NB: 18:01
Yep, absolutely.
SM: 18:02
And, and they, this was a job opportunity. And, so there was that. And also, it is interesting with, some of the people I have interviewed about Kent State, is, you know, Kent State was not known as an activist school for a long time. It was more of a conservative school. And I know they had a real big and strong SDS chapter there. And, they played a major role. But still, when-
NB: 18:29
When, they had had, there were a lot of children of, of Labor Union activists.
SM: 18:30
Yes.
NB: 18:31
In fact, there is the wonderful book, I do not know if you have had a chance to interview Thomas Grace. But-
SM: 18:39
Yeah, I did.
NB: 18:40
-yeah, his book is just terrific on establishing that there was a history of activism at that school. It just was not well known that you would this- -these assumptions that were made. And I think there is some of the same story at Jackson State that, Robbie Luckett-Robert Luckett, who runs the Margaret Walker Center at Jackson State has done a really good job, I think, recapturing that history in the current exhibit that they have on campus right now, about the Lynch Street corridor and the ways in which Jackson State was very much always a part of what was going on, even if it was a great risk to those students who participated.
SM: 18:48
Yes. Yeah. One of the most important things that was happening in America and certainly in the south, and all over America was in 1966. Could you describe the meaning of "Black power"? And when these two words became the slogan for African American students in the (19)60s. We all know the Stokely who had been a member of Snick for many, many years. He was there in Freedom Summer doing all his thing, but he had different views than some of the others in Snick. He and H. Rap Brown and others became more radicalized. Could you explain when this kind of happened and the effect that it had on college campuses?
NB: 19:55
Sure. And it is hard to track. I would say that though the terminology comes popularized at that point in 1966. The ideology, A, had not had long been there. Many people think of, say, the Black Panther Party as being the heirs of Malcolm X. So, we have other voices-
SM: 20:12
Right.
NB: 20:12
-throughout the civil rights era that are calling for a different kind of, of approach to making social change. Civil rights activism based in nonviolent direct action really is an appeal to the conscience of those who have power. Right. It is asking white people to see that they are wrong, that it is immoral to do things like segregate and appealing on them, to change their minds and to become as, in a sense, better neighbors, better citizens. By the summer of 1964, when you have civil rights, you have the murder of civil rights activists during Freedom Summer, you have, you know, an extraordinary number of acts of violence against civil rights activists, generally speaking, and then in 1964, at the Democratic National Convention, you see mainstream, liberal Democrats really turn their back on the activists from Mississippi who come to the convention-
SM: 21:03
It is amazing cause-
NB: 21:03
-with the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party asking that the Democratic Party itself unseat the white Mississippians and see other delegates to the convention who have created a Democratic Party that includes Black people as well as white people. And when the white liberals do that, for some who had gone along with nonviolent direct action, it is kind of the final straw. The idea is you even the people who purported to be our friends, cannot be counted on when push comes to shove, when their political well-being is threatened in any kind of way. So, I think for a lot of young people who had thought of nonviolent direct action, not so much as a way of life, but as a tactic, that shift was underway by 1964, even though we do not talk the language of "Black power," really, until 1966. I think the other thing that is really essential here is that by 1966, you could see that even with the passage of civil rights legislation, a lot was not changing. If you live in Oakland, the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64, does not do anything for you, neither does the Voting Rights Act. So even as we see political empowerment taking place in the south, by the late 1960s, for a lot of African Americans, the civil rights legislation did not actually have much meaning. So, there was a kind of raised and disappointed expectations that encourage people to think about the need for a different strategy to make change, that what is really essential in the United States is power. And so you have got to get some and the way you get that as you start to think about Black nationalism, you think about economic determinism, which is or excuse me, economic Black nationalism, which is to say, spend your dollars in stores owned by Black people, spend your dollars where it will come back in tax revenue to your own community. And political Black nationalism; do not vote for anybody who does not have your back, they may not be Black, but they have got to have your back, spend your vote wisely. And then sort of social or cultural, Black nationalism, that just speaks to the need to look to your own community for wellbeing and to think about creating change from within rather than looking to the white community for change from without-
SM: 21:03
Yes.
NB: 21:45
-and so by 1966, I think it is a combination of frustration. And the reality that things are not changing, and experiences with the white community that suggests the sort of limits of what is possible through nonviolent direct action in a country that is so steeped, so deeply immersed in, in a white supremacist history and system.
SM: 23:21
It is, it is, it is something here also, it is kind of a deja vu story in America. After the Civil War and Reconstruction, you know, people were supposed to have the right to, you know, for a lot of freedoms, probably up to about 1877.
NB: 23:47
Yep.
SM: 23:47
And after that, then all these, did the extreme opposite. And, you know, everything that we knew about Mississippi in 1964 was, was it all had dots going back to that 1877 rights, right up to the Ku Klux Klan, and the-
NB: 24:09
Yep.
SM: 24:09
-citizen councils, and all these things, preventing African Americans from just about everything. They were never treated equal. The one thing that shocks me the most over and over again, it is in your book and in other books, is how they talk to people of color by using the N word. It just-
NB: 24:26
Right.
SM: 24:26
-it just upsets me terribly.
NB: 24:28
Right. Well, I think it was not only that, but even the kinds of, sort of basic slights all the time, so, not calling you by your last name, not using Mr. And Mrs., forcing you to get off the sidewalk, or out of the way for a white person was very intentional. It was intended to degrade, right. And I think that is why the N word is so powerful is that, it was a representation of a whole system of slight and of degradation that was intended to send a message that you are less than I am. And-and, you know, just the ways that, that would then, create ways of living in the world for white, think about white young people growing up in that world, of course, they assume that they are better. And for young Black people how hard it is then to assert yourself and to understand your own capacities, right. There is ways in which, you know, it just was so cruel. It just it, yeah, I agree with you. It is just, it is unbelievable. It is, it is easy to be upset by things like lynching, of course we should be. But that is only one piece of this whole system that was designed to degrade people's lives.
SM: 25:41
And, and what is happening today in America, I worry, again, is this, the third chapter of-
NB: 25:46
It sure feels like it.
SM: 25:48
-like two steps forward and three steps backward, two steps forward, three steps backward, especially in the area of voting. I mean, even John Kennedy, when he was president, you know, he wanted to get a bill passed. But one thing he did not include in that bill was voting.
NB: 26:05
Right.
SM: 26:05
And-
NB: 26:06
No, that is right.
SM: 26:07
-so when you look at the killings at Jackson State, and I am so glad you wrote this book, because, you know, Kent, I have been to 14 remembrance events at Kent State and they have done a fantastic job-
NB: 26:19
Yeah.
SM: 26:19
-in making sure that what happened at Jackson State is part of the Kent State story as well.
NB: 26:24
They sure have, they sure have.
SM: 26:26
And could you, describe the history of the school? You have done it a little bit already, about the, it, what, it is your, it is your material that you built up proving that what happened on the 18th of May was racist. Yeah, 14th, 14th of May. Oh the, yeah 14th, excuse me, yes 14th.
NB: 26:46
No, I think it is really important because it is very, I mean, I think it is important to note that the young people who suffered at Kent State and at Jackson State feel a real sense of community with one another. And it is something, I think there is great gratitude, both directions for that. Kent State itself has done a great job, retaining the story of Jackson State alongside their own, and I applaud them for that. But one thing that has happened is, Kent State become the kind of iconic story for the period, which made it really easy for Jackson State to kind of just slip off the page, so to speak, that itself, I think is-is a result of white supremacy and our failure to recognize that this was a racially based murder. And, you can see that so clearly. So, Jackson State was a historically Black institution. By 1970, I think there is three or four white kids going to school there. There is the children of professors, I think. But, there is really just a couple of kids there. It is, it is really silly, historically Black and predominantly, or actually exclusively Black school at that point. And it has a history of over the course of the 1960s, having engagements with the police that end in, in police violence. They are always overreacting to the slightest, any kind of unrest on the campus will bring in Thompson's tank, which was an armored tank, purchased for Freedom Summer, will bring in, you know, large numbers of heavily armed police in a way that just was not happening nationwide, right. This is a period of great activism on college campuses. And in general, you do not see the immediate response being sent in, in, you know, a large armed force. At Jackson State that is the routine response to any kind of unrest. And there is unrest every summer, starting in 1964, of some sort. The other way you could really see this, that this is a result of racism, that this is white supremacy being enacted, is you could look at a number of things first, when they hear that there is a dump truck on fire on the campus, instead of saying okay, so what should we do? They instead, quickly hand out a bunch of riot gear, and shotguns, and run out to Jackson State. There is no talk about what the mission for the night is, they do not brief the troops. So, everybody goes in without a clear sense of what their job is when they get there, right. That is, so they are in complete panic mode. Because, why? Because these are young Black people. So they assume, as one guy says, "Well, once they started burning the, you know, burned that, we figured they burned down the town." So, they have already conceptualized these kids as criminals. Now, why is that racially infused, because in Mississippi, that is something that had long been done, A, but also as you start to look at some of the things they do: A, all the way through, they refer to the young people using the N word, they come in with armory, with armaments that are better suited for, for warfare than they are for crowd control. If you had any regard for these young people's lives, they would not have been armed in the way that they were. And then finally, that they opened fire on them. They open fire and shoot for 28 seconds because a bottle broke on the pavement. You do not, it is completely against protocol to do so. They would not have opened fire on a group of young white people. But, because there is no regard for these young Black people's lives, they open fire and continue to fire for 28 seconds. They shoot over 400 shells. I mean it is, it is shocking. And they are shooting from almost point-blank range.
SM: 27:16
Owie.
NB: 27:21
I mean and to look at, and to hear these young people talk about what happened. It is so clear. And then in the aftermath, they literally do not assist the wounded, or the dead. They yell at the young people using the N word, and tell them to go check on these kids, two of whom die. Several others of whom are injured, they do not assist the kids. They pick up their own shells instead. It is, it is not until the National Guard arrives-
SM: 30:59
Yes.
NB: 30:59
that the students are assisted in helping those who are injured, or, and tending to the two who had died, Phillip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. So, it is so infused with racism. And yet it is, it is undeniable when you look at the evidence up close.
SM: 31:14
After it happened in your book, several people said the National Guard was supposed to take over for them, they were supposed to leave. Then, that probably would not have happened if the National Guard were there. But, it is the fact that the Jackson Police and the state troopers were there.
NB: 31:30
That is right. And they are called in because a dump truck is lit on fire in the middle of the street. And the night before, there had been some unrest but, the police never enter the campus. So even though there was unrest on campus, nobody was injured. Nobody was hurt, clear lesson there. The next night when this dump truck is lit on fire, the police and the highway patrol rushed to campus, all in a fluster. And when the, they are rushed to campus to, to, quote, "Protect the fire department." Well, the fire department leaves once the dump truck fire is out. And what do the police and highway patrol marched into the middle of campus, there is no reason for them to enter the campus, no reason for them to march toward the middle of it. The mayor says, the National Guard chair says, number of people who were on site say there was nothing going on in the middle of campus. I did not know why they were marching there, and it was against their orders. They marched in the middle of campus. They turn their weapons on a group of young people in front of a women's dormitory. Kids who until they arrived had been hanging out.
SM: 32:31
Right.
NB: 32:32
As one guy said to me, "Yeah, we were all just hanging out. It was a nice Mississippi evening, to where all the lovers world, were, it was a women's dormitory." Women had an earlier curfew, it turns out. So, the men were all hanging out in the sort of, sway in front of the dormitory. When these you know, this heavily armed crew marches on them, and turns their weapons on them. So, of course they yell at them. But, when they are asked to clear the street and to move away, the students do, there is no question about it. The students are behind a chain linked fence when the police opened fire, and the police had no reason to be there.
SM: 33:07
Where was the-
NB: 33:08
In fact, you know, the National Guard is, is completely upset the commander that they have done this, he says literally, "They have done it all wrong."
SM: 33:18
I-I know that the college president was around, he was keeping track of this. A plus over from Jackson State over Kent State, is the administration at Kent State was nowhere to be found.
NB: 33:30
Right.
SM: 33:31
And, talk about an inept administration, faculty members were kind of-
NB: 33:37
Right.
SM: 33:37
-doing their thing. But at least at Jackson State, the President was around, and was concerned, and but he was not at that scene.
NB: 33:45
No, that is right. He was actually at his home at the time, because, because he knew that there was some unrest. And as soon as the shootings happened, a number of young Black men primarily approached his home, which is right near campus, and said, "You know, you have got to, you have got to come out here you have to see what they have done to us," and he immediately did. And he helped probably, to prevent a much larger loss of life because some students were wanting to march on downtown, and that would have been catastrophic. And, he helped the students. He did not, I will not say calm them, what he did is he asked another student who was there who was well known among the students, highly regarded, and was known to be able to recite Martin Luther King speeches by heart. And he asked him to recite, and that young man did, and it slowed things down enough for students to then talk about what they ought to do, and they realized what they should do was to stay on campus, but they refused to, to go back into the dorms. The president said, "Go back inside," and they said, "Why? Well, we were not, we were not safe in there. We are staying out here tonight." And so, they spent the night in front of the dorm. It was shaped like an H, and so they were in the sort of lower part inside the two legs of the H. The west wing on the left is where the shooting took place. And they spent the night there, but President John Peeples absolutely was, was crucial and remains really close with many of the students from that era. They all speak so glowingly-
SM: 35:14
Right.
NB: 35:14
-of him. When they finally had their graduation, where they got to walk across the stage last summer. He was absolutely in. He was there and was the commencement speaker for them. So, he is well known to have been very, very important. And then that young man, Eugene Young, they nicknamed him, his nickname was Jughead, he, too, was really crucial in helping the students sort of slow down enough to realize that it would be, suicidal to leave the campus grounds.
SM: 35:45
You know, I knew Jean. He came here-
NB: 35:48
Did you? You are so lucky.
SM: 35:49
-I met, he came to Kent State several years to speak at some of the programs on the- 30th, the 1st or 2nd of May in some of the buildings there. And, I was sad when I heard he passed away. I know he had been on the previous year, he had been on Democracy Now, talking about it as he paid tribute to those who had died. But, he, he was so good as a speaker.
NB: 35:54
That is right. And that is what everyone says.
SM: 36:14
Yeah and, and he and, I remember he was staying at a hotel, and I was staying another hotel, and he did not have a ride. So, [chuckles] I took him back to his hotel. But, we were in another theater downtown because they were doing some programs in the, in the theater. And he was just, I mean, he was, it was like you go to grad school, and you meet your new grad students in your residence hall. You talked to him once and you were friends.
NB: 36:42
Yeah.
SM: 36:42
He was, he was that good, and that friendly. I remember when I came back to Kent State, I had heard that he passed and it touched the people at Kent State, so.
NB: 36:52
No, everybody, everyone has spoken so highly of him. It is one of my, I will not say regrets. But I just, I wish I had started my project a few years earlier. So, I might have had the chance to meet him. And honestly, not only for the story that I know, he would tell, and I would love to have had the chance to learn from, but also just, he just sounds like an extraordinary human being.
SM: 37:14
Oh, yeah. He is, he reminds me of a professor. I mean, he was,-
NB: 37:18
Yeah, that is right.
SM: 37:19
He was just, he was intellect, he is an intellectual. He is very calm, though. He is a gifted-
NB: 37:25
Yep.
SM: 37:25
-gifted speaker but calm.
NB: 37:27
And you know, he was a part of the civil rights activism in Jackson as a young child.
SM: 37:31
I did not know that.
NB: 37:32
Yeah, so in the early (19)60s, he is a part of the of the activism in Jackson. And in fact, he comes up if you read Dan Moody's book "Becoming of Age in Mississippi," which is an account-
SM: 37:41
Oh yeah.
NB: 37:42
-of, sort of, grassroots activism, she talks about little Jean Young.
SM: 37:46
Oh, I will check that out.
NB: 37:47
Yeah. So he came by his activism early, and was really a part of, of those, you know, the student efforts of the early 1960s in Jackson.
SM: 37:56
Now the Black power, I want to get back to the Black power situation again, around (19)66. That was coming to Jackson State as well. Some of the things that the students were demanding. And this is important to know, because I think it is in your book and another book I read. When people say how did these changes happen? It was because of the African American students.
NB: 38:19
That is right.
SM: 38:19
That made it happen. Not some, not Stokely Carmichael. Not-
NB: 38:24
That is right.
SM: 38:24
-it was them. And, and I saw this at Ohio State because that is where I went. I went to grad school at Ohio State.
NB: 38:30
Right.
SM: 38:30
And the Black studies, the arrival of Black studies-
NB: 38:34
Yeah.
SM: 38:35
-on campus and the legitimacy that it is an academic program was a big challenge-
NB: 38:39
Yes.
SM: 38:39
around there. And of course, the Black student unions were getting big, bigger, and the Black student papers, and student programs at Ohio State. This is the same time period; Ohio State had a lunchtime program from 12 to 1 in the Ohio Union. And it was for African American students, and on African American issues. I went every single one. And they only had 25 or 30 people, I was there as one of the few white people that was in there [chuckles]. But I will never forget when Jesse Jackson came, oh my god!
NB: 39:09
Yes, there you go right! And, I have heard him speak once when I was in, 1978. Yeah, at his church, quite a.
SM: 39:18
Yeah, well, yeah. Well, Jesse was there and of course, he had his afro and he was, you know, dressed like, he was young. [crosstalk] He was a young guy. And then I also remember Kathleen Cleaver coming to Ohio State, she spoke in Mercian auditorium, one Friday night, and I remember it was, and the place was packed and she had her own guard, you know, the Black Panthers guarded her. And, we were waiting and she finally came in. And, she spoke for a while and she said, "Well, I was met at the airport by the police," [laughs] of course, and they escorted her to get to Ohio State. And so, she started to speak and they had two guards up on the stage and they were just standing there, not moving, one fainted.
NB: 40:06
Oh wow.
SM: 40:07
And she is only into her speech for a couple minutes, and this, one guy faints and falls down, then somebody thought he had been shot. So-
NB: 40:15
Oh yeah.
SM: 40:16
I will never forget that. And, they ran up there to protect her and everything, but it was-
NB: 40:21
Oh yeah.
SM: 40:22
-but it was during this Black power and, and Black pride, and the afro hair dos, and everything.
NB: 40:29
Black is beautiful was a really important concept, right?
SM: 40:32
Yes.
NB: 40:33
Even today, I know that my own Black students still suffer from not only colorism within the Black community, but you know, being taught that to be the way they are, to look the way they are, is not going to get you where you are needing to go. So, they talk about you need to dress professionally. You need to wear your hair professionally. And they are telling kids even in 2022, right, that to wear your hair naturally, either does not look good or is not professional. So, it is still here, If you can imagine the power of the messaging of Black is beautiful, right? Wait, to be me is a beautiful thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SM: 41:06
Yeah. And they were, and they were challenging at Ohio State now, whoever were there, they were challenging the legitimacy of the new Black studies program. The person they had hired, his last, his last name was Nelson, Dr. Nelson. He was an academic scholar from someplace afar that came in to lead this. The credentials were unbelievable for this man. And he was given the chance to start at Ohio State and he did a great job.
NB: 41:34
Yeah. What an opportunity, right? And that is some of what is going on at Jackson State. Right. And in the, in the late 1960s, is the arrival of Dr. Peeples in 1967. He says, we are going to have a revolution in our books. And he talks about having, you know, a high-quality education, we are going to show them something, we are not going to do it by having you know violence, we are going to do it by having a great education, turning you lose on the world. And what he means by that is, that students will begin to have a voice, and that African American life, and culture, and history will be a part of what they have access to, and he found what becomes today, the Margaret Walker Center. He begins to invite Black writers to campus, He allows Stokely Carmichael to come, and others are like, "Why are you doing that?" he is like, "Well, you do not understand. You have to allow people to express themselves."
SM: 41:37
Yeah. Yeah.
NB: 42:23
You know, it was a brilliant move on his part, in terms of engaging a sense of trust with the students who are like, "Whoa, really, you are going to let Stokely Carmichael come," and Stokely Carmichael meets with him, and he is really surprised. And he says to Stokely Carmichael, "I am part of a new generation of college presidents, we are going to be a little bit different than what you remember," and so he is, he is also facilitating. So, even as students are, are claiming more power, they are fortunate enough to have an administrator that recognizes that, that is the right thing to allow. That, that is really important for their well-being. And so, it is this beautiful sort of, growth of, within the context still of a white board of higher education. So for that president, he is navigating something very difficult, which is trying to protect the students from this, you know, the white board of higher education, but also allowing them, and I should not even say allowing, but getting out of their way so they can do the things that they want to do, which is to express themselves to study, you know, what is going on with the war to ask, and raise questions about voting rights to, you know, explore the inequities that they are, they are experiencing its students at a college in a system in which the other schools are better resourced. I mean, they are so aware that what they have at Jackson State is not the same as what is at the University of Mississippi.
SM: 43:40
Yes.
NB: 43:40
And they are unhappy about that. And he is making space for them to know that at least. So it is, it is a, I do not want to say magical time. But I think it is a time of such extraordinary expansion of possibility. And I think that is important in understanding why the police might assault the campus, right. And that is the campus they attack. It is not a campus in which things are staying the same. It is a campus that is changing.
SM: 44:06
Right. You bring up another, other important thing that, it was not the first time has students died on college campuses. If you have, you know, we think about Kent State and the four that died and the two that died at the Jackson State but, do not forget the those who died in Orangeburg in 1968.
NB: 44:25
That is right.
SM: 44:26
Jack Nelson wrote a great book on this.
NB: 44:28
Yep. Yeah.
SM: 44:29
If you have not read the book.
NB: 44:30
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
SM: 44:31
But I you know, and I know that one, two died at Berkeley too, I think in, early on during shootings or something like that. So it has happened before, but the publicity for Orangeburg was just like the publicity at Jackson State, which was nothing.
NB: 44:50
Right. Well, that is one of the things I find really interesting is absolutely, there was no, no publicity for Orangeburg. Not only that, but the only person who does prison time for it right, is Cleveland Sellers who is actually a Black activist.
SM: 45:04
Yes, I, yes.
NB: 45:05
Right. There is this terrible assault on young African Americans, and the only person who faces prosecution is someone who is not responsible for it. But, the other thing I was going to say about Jackson State that is really interesting is that it actually does get publicity at the time. It actually is on the front page, and not in the same way that Kent State was, but it is on the front page of The New York Times, it is in, it is on NBC News, ABC News, CBS News, it is in the one-year anniversary, Playboy runs a multi-page story about the funeral for James Green. So, it is not that people did not know about it in 1970, many people did. And that is why the forgetting of it for me is all the more important to trace. Because it was known and then unknown, how do we do that? And, we do it again, and again, and again, as a white community, it turns out.
SM: 45:54
When the tragedy or the killings, Alan Canfora, used to say-
NB: 45:58
Oh yeah.
SM: 45:59
-let us start making sure we say the killings at Kent State not the tragedy, and it is the killings at Kent State and Jackson State.
NB: 46:06
Yeah, yeah.
SM: 46:06
And, but the shootings at Kent State or when it, it happened it, it affected America like I have never seen before.
NB: 46:18
Absolutely.
SM: 46:19
I will look at the college campuses reacting to it all over the country. You know, after Nixon gave the speech going into Cambodia, which we have been in for a long time already.
NB: 46:28
Right-right.
SM: 46:29
And the fact is that I am, I am just one example of probably millions of college students at the time who said, you know, it affected their lives forever. Now-
NB: 46:41
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
SM: 46:42
-but then 11 days later, the, to it, no one talks about the, it should affect their lives as well. And you get to thinking, well, who is creating a racial issue here?
NB: 46:56
Right.
SM: 46:57
Is, you know, we are not talking about Jackson, we are not talking about the state of Mississippi. We are talking about what is happening in the media. What is happening in the-
NB: 47:05
Yeah no, that is right.
SM: 47:06
-yeah, I am, I am still trying to, boggled, my mind is boggled on this issue.
NB: 47:12
Right. But I think it is a really, I mean, I think you are going right to the heart of, of what is so important, which is, how do we manage to make some things remain part of our national narrative? And, other things do not. So, if you look at a high school history book, I bet they will include Kent State today and I bet they will not include Jackson State. The very best college textbooks are beginning to include Jackson State. But again, how is it that we, we, you know, how is it that we move from knowing it to not knowing it, and it takes a great deal of effort, it seems- -to me, and it is, it is not somebody, it is not conspiratorial, it is not somebody saying, "Oh, let us remove this from the story." But rather, it is a much more insidious series of small laps by newspaper editors, I looked, I tracked the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was fascinating to watch how it went from having several pages on what happened to Jackson State at one point. I cannot remember if it is the fifth-year anniversary, but a few years out, they have a big come, you know, two-page story big spread on Kent State. And then they have a little you know, what do you have those little sidebars called "Others Who Died," and that is where they put Jackson State.
SM: 47:43
Right. Oh wow.
NB: 48:20
And that is that effort of like, again, they are not trying to be cruel, but they are imposing sort of a white supremacist historical lens, here is the one that matters, here is the ones that do not matter. Right?
SM: 48:31
Yep.
NB: 48:31
And it happens, and that is how we make it happen. It makes us, it just makes me very conscious of the ways in which white supremacy is so systemic. I mean, there is a reason we use that kind of language, it is because, it is in the air we breathe, we commit it constantly, without even realizing we are doing it. [crosstalk] The needing to be so conscious of that is, is one of the reasons I think to know history is so important.
SM: 48:53
When it first happened, I was reading the press about Kent State. And, it was the talk about "Well, why did not, why did not happen at Berkeley, or Columbia, or a University of Wisconsin, or Harvard Square," that were, you know, even Ohio State, and Ohio University, by the way, was the most liberal of all the campuses at that time and had some of the worst protests.
NB: 49:21
Right, oh yeah.
SM: 49:22
And so, but nobody died there. But they died at Kent State, which the press kind of made it look like they were a conservative campus that has not- -really been that active. And then the same thing is true you brought up in your book with Jackson Spade, Jackson State trying to compare with Tougaloo.
NB: 49:31
Right. Right.
SM: 49:40
And you know, that had a history of activism and Jackson State had not so-
NB: 49:45
Yeah.
SM: 49:46
-it is a, yeah, and your book is going to help this, definitely going to help this.
NB: 49:53
Certainly the purpose of it, and I think it is the reason people were willing to speak with me, because here I am a white scholar, they have never heard of contacting them out of the blue, asking them to talk about a horrific event in their life that has tremendous meaning to them. And yet, you know, you know, dozens of people were willing to tell me their stories. And I think it is because they want the story to be known, and they are frustrated by the way in which it has been forgotten. It irks people deeply, that the story of what took place on that campus is not broadly known. And so, if my book can do anything toward that, it is only because the people to whom it happened, want that to happen, and were willing to help me, with the work I was trying to do. It was a stunningly supportive and kind response that I received from every single person I interviewed that had some connection to the school at that time.
SM: 50:47
What is become, the Jackson State of today, I just want to know, I know they do have remembrance events every year.
NB: 50:54
Yep. Yep, absolutely.
SM: 50:55
And that is very good. And I know sometimes they have small numbers. Kent State has not had a high, a lot of, heavy numbers in recent years as well. But, it is still a steady group that comes. Is it important that it happens? How is Jackson State right now in terms of, you know, the school is, is it, you know, the courses is, is there activism on campus, is?
NB: 51:22
You know, I do not I, it is a very, very different place than it used to be. At the time when it was Jackson State College, it was a single campus, and a relatively small campus. Today, it is a sprawling University, with pieces all spread all over Jackson, the city, featuring different things. So, you know, schools of media or that kind of thing spread out, too, it is a very different place, it is much, much larger. The home campus, which was the original Jackson State College, I believe, is still desperately under resourced. They, the library, for instance, I know is understaffed, because I have spent a lot of time in that library. I do not actually know the personality of the school. I know that there are still a number of remarkable people working there. I have met some of the historians there, and they are just first rates and people who really care about this story, and have made an effort to keep it alive. So, they have been very actively involved in the memory work. As I mentioned before, Professor Robert Luckett, who runs the Margaret Walker Center has been fundamental to the efforts to keeping the story alive. But, I do not actually know the personality of the students per se. I did interview a couple of young people just out of curiosity, their familiarity with the story itself. And it was interesting, my sense is that many students who go to school there really do not know much about what took place. There are those that do, and who are part of the remembrance efforts. But I think, in general, most of the students are not aware, which is odd, because in fact, like the major, beautiful sort of walkway in the midst of campus is the Gibbs Green Plaza, named for the two young men who were killed. But, and my sense is that the campus is-is like Kent State, I think it is very hard to keep the memory alive, even though I think both institutions have worked hard at it. The other thing I would say about Jackson State is, for a time, the campus was, the administration was interested in remembering the killings. Then, there was a period during which I think they were tired of being known only for the killings. And, I think the administrator sort of pushed back a little against the remembrances. And, that was certainly the case when I was first starting my project. I was not, how can I put this, upper administration might not have been that excited about this being a story that people were talking about. There is somebody I supposed to interview, who was a staff member who was not actually allowed to talk to me, which was very odd. I think that is over. And, I think they are back to understanding just how important this is. And they had a, a wonderful series of events planned for the 50th anniversary, which were tragically undercut because of COVID. But last year, on the 51st anniversary, they had a beautiful graduation ceremony right on the plaza right at the site of the shootings. And it was, you know, supported by the University, and was really just a remarkable event. So, I think the campus today is a place where that story is, if not broadly known, it is nevertheless, one that is considered really important to the institution, and there are people working hard to make sure its memory is as present as possible.
SM: 54:47
You know that, that reaction or maybe lessening the remembrance events or something like that. It could be the generations are shifting here now, and that the boomers are now the older, the elders.
NB: 55:00
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
SM: 55:01
And millennials are now taken over in terms of leadership positions. Millennials themselves cannot stand the word diet and, that they say that is a boomer generation word.
NB: 55:17
[laughs]
SM: 55:17
So now the CEO of Coke is, I think, is going to be getting rid of the word diet on all their drinks, eventually, it is going to be zero sugar. Because, millennials let it be known to Coke and Pepsi that the diet thing should stop. That is from another era. [laughs]
NB: 55:35
You know what, oh that is very funny. I am sitting here with a Diet Coke in my hand.
SM: 55:39
[laughs] Well, I drink it all the time, so.
NB: 55:41
I literally have one in my hand as we are speaking, so. [chuckles]
SM: 55:44
Did-did you ever see the other book that was written on Jackson State by Mr. Stoppard?
NB: 55:49
Yes, I did. Yes, I did.
SM: 55:52
Yeah, he wrote that. I interviewed him-
NB: 55:55
Oh, good.
SM: 55:55
-maybe six, eight months ago on that book. And I think that, then that was a dissertation or something like that, he was writing a paper and then ended up becoming a book.
NB: 56:06
Yeah, yep. And he did a lot of really important research that was very helpful, helpful for me, because he had collected some resources, and that alongside with resources collected by Jackson State itself, meant that there is an amazing Gibbs Green collection that is held both in the archives at the university, but also in the Mississippi Department of Archives and History, they have a microfilm copy of it. So I was able to access some things, that would have been much harder for me to find, without the work that he had done. So I am very grateful to him for the, the work that he had done on the story. I think the, the one place that I would, would push back is that he talks about, he uses the language of riot. And I think that is really a misrepresentation.
SM: 56:50
Right.
NB: 56:51
In the spring of 1970, the kinds of things that were going on at Jackson State can hardly be called rioting-
SM: 56:56
Yeah.
NB: 56:57
-in a time when there was such extraordinary unrest nationwide. So that is really, if there was one place I really wanted to push back on. It was, it was to, make the case that this was a murderer, and be racially charged, and racially motivated.
SM: 57:12
I-I was amazed that he had the courage to go to Jackson, and to be walking around, and be in that environment for a while because of, when he wrote the book, it was pretty close proximity to what had happened I guess.
NB: 57:25
Yeah, no, that is right.
SM: 57:26
So, you know, I asked him, if he was afraid he was not afraid, just wanted to get a story, so.
NB: 57:32
Yeah-yeah, no, exactly.
SM: 57:35
Yeah, I do not embrace it when you are talking about boomers, you are talking about African Americans as well. And what, as a scholar, what has been your thought on the boomer generation as a whole, it was 74 million, it was the largest generation in history. And now the, the millennials are the largest generation, they are about 78 million. So your thoughts on, you know, only about 7 percent of the boomers are really involved in any sort of activist activity. And, of course, 93, we are not, percent we are not in that large generation, so. And oftentimes, the media portrays the (19)60s is, it is all about that 7 percent and not about the 93 that were just going about their daily activities and trying to make a living. Your just, just your thoughts on the impact of that generation.
NB: 57:58
Wow. Well I think, and this is, it is such a large topic, but I would say that, to suggest that it is only 7 percent, I would not want to demean, nevertheless, the impact that that generation had, I think they were able to, in fact, awaken the nation to some really serious questions, and issues that changed all of our lives. Now, the fact that today Roe has been reversed, makes me feel like the changes we thought were permanent may not be. But when you think about the Civil Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act, I mean, these are, and Roe for that matter. And you think about where we have come in terms of LGBTQ rights, you think about all of the transitions that have taken place, the ways in which the meaning of who is really a citizen, and what that means has expanded. It is extraordinary, what that time period made possible. And you really do have to credit especially the young people who, who, you know, did the work of calling and enacting change. It was not going to happen without the activism that, that 7 percent did. And so, I think the I think the boomer generation did extraordinary things. The other thing that is interesting to me is, is when we think about how are we defining who an activist is because my own parents were very traditional in the sense that my mother was a homemaker. My father was, you know, out working for a living, we were very traditional family in some ways, but we were also well aware of the war in Vietnam. And the day that Kent State happened, you know, my mom served dinner in what would be sort of our more formal setting, which we did not usually eat out, except if we had guests and because it was this big, terrible moment in our nation's history. So, we were not an activist family. But we were certainly awakened by and cognizant, awakened by that generation, and cognizant of the issues because of the young people of that generation. So, I think the impact is really quite extraordinary. And I know there has been enormous pushback. But I will use the language I guess, just as conservatives generally, to discredit that generation, in ways that I think are unfair. Surely there were, oh, what was the word I even want? There were people who went too far, there were things that were foolish, find me a generation of young people where that is not the case. [chuckles] And you show me a miracle.
SM: 59:39
Yes.
NB: 1:00:53
Right-right. I think for, for whatever failings that generation had then, and has had subsequently, its accomplishments, I think, are not to be, should not be misunderstood. I think they are enormous. And I think we continue to live with those. The fact that I am a college professor, as a woman, is because of that generation, right. Civil Rights Act made it possible for me to have the job I have to get into graduate school and to get a position that simply would not have been possible without it. How long and how permanent those changes will be, I think, is much, much more up for grabs than I ever could have imagined.
SM: 1:01:32
Yeah. I-I did not know that that vote took place today. I did not know, so.
NB: 1:01:43
Oh, sorry. I am pretty sure that is right. I have, yes. I believe it was overturned this morning.
SM: 1:01:47
Oh, my God.
NB: 1:01:48
I think the decision came down.
SM: 1:01:51
Wow. That is going to be, woah. One of the things I want to talk about here-
NB: 1:01:57
Yep. It overturned Roe v. Wade today.
SM: 1:02:01
Wow.
NB: 1:02:01
And apparently, the part by Thomas, has written something that says, you know, and this is only the first effort, you know, now we have really got to get to work overturning the, I do not know what he said. So, I will not repeat it.
SM: 1:02:13
Wow.
NB: 1:02:13
But I need to read it because it sounds like there is an intention. It is-
SM: 1:02:17
Right.
NB: 1:02:17
-sort of terrifying, if you have the values that you and I seem to have.
SM: 1:02:20
Yeah, and I am, I think the if, the voting issue is another thing that is-
NB: 1:02:26
Yeah, me too. Oh.
SM: 1:02:26
-scaring the heck out of me. I work on the elections and I cannot believe that we are talking about this.
NB: 1:02:32
No, me either.
SM: 1:02:32
2020, 2022. I want to talk about the, when Black power came about and of course, Dr. King and non-violence. When you think of non-violence, you think of the, think of Dr. King, you think of Byard Rustin. And, you know, most of the-
NB: 1:02:47
Reverend Lawson.
SM: 1:02:49
-Roy Wilkins, James Farmer, John Lewis, Julian Bond, Shirley Chisholm, that whole group-
NB: 1:02:55
Right.
SM: 1:02:55
-Roy Wilkins. When Black Power came, I can remember a picture of Stokely Carmichael standing next to Dr. King.
NB: 1:03:06
Yep.
SM: 1:03:06
And he is talking and Dr. King is kind of motionless, with his hands, I think, on his chin or something like that. And it, it almost made it look like he was lecturing to Dr. King, [chuckles] and I, you know, when you think of the changes that happen, nonviolent, nonviolent protests was crucial, in the changes we did in America. And then also, we know what happened with Black power, it also helped change in a different way.
NB: 1:03:38
Yep. Yep.
SM: 1:03:39
But then we get then we also have the Muhammad Ali's, of the world taking stands against the Vietnam War.
NB: 1:03:47
Yep.
SM: 1:03:47
And Dr. King in 1967, did something that no one thought he would ever do, and that is a– yes, speech at Riverside Church. And, of course, was Rabbi Heschel right next to him who had influenced him to do that speech.
NB: 1:03:55
Speech at Riverside Church.
SM: 1:04:04
So your thoughts on this whole business about, you know, Black power and nonviolent protest be the, you know, not a battle, but you know, a petition.
NB: 1:04:04
Right. Well, I think that is the key, well I think that is the key is that, I think it has really been unfortunate the ways in which at the time, certainly the media, publicized this as if it was an internal struggle, and certainly there was that going on. But, you know, Dr. King remains close friends with a lot of those young people who are advocates for Black power, right, the fact that they have different approaches to it does not mean that their end goal was not the same. And this is a point my students will always want to make. They will say, "Well, but wait a minute, what was Black Power trying to get and how is that different from what Dr. King was trying to get?" The point as well, different routes do a lot of the same things. And so for me, I continue to think about, the reason this is important to me is I think it is really relevant in the context of trying to make change in 2022, I would argue there is always room for lots of approaches to creating change, because you will change some things with that appeal to conscience, you will change some people with that appeal to conscience, non-violence, for me will always be the approach that I would have to adopt. There is nothing in Black Power that says it is not also nonviolent, by the way.
SM: 1:04:18
Right.
NB: 1:04:23
The thing that was different in Black Power is the articulation, both of a determination to claim power, but also a determination to create one's own lives and to be self-determining, and also to defend oneself. And that is, I think the part that was, was most troubling for someone like Dr. King. The reality is that Dr. King's people had carried guns in their, you know, in their, the trunks of their cars and, and many of the people involved in nonviolent direct action, were willing to be armed as needed. And so, in the context of that moment, historically, even the issue of self-defense strikes me as one that did not divide the camps as, as vividly as the press is portrayed. And I think many historians have worked hard to show the ways in which there was actually great continuity between those, the parts of the movement, not only in terms of people, but that many of the ideas that we associate with Black power have roots reaching back all the way through the Civil Rights period. Are they two different approaches? Absolutely. Are they necessarily in competition or in conflict? I am not as condensed.
SM: 1:06:28
Yeah, I know that, Snick, Stokely was part of Snick. And he, Black power to kind of took over Snick as well.
NB: 1:06:36
Yep.
SM: 1:06:36
And some people that had been there a long-time kind of left Snick, John Lewis- John Lewis went back and they became a congressman. [chuckles]
NB: 1:06:40
And some were eventually thrown out, [crosstalk] kicked out the white members in (19)66, so. Right, right.
SM: 1:06:50
I do not know, if, he really was not into that, so.
NB: 1:06:53
No, that is exactly right. No, but it was a very painful, very painful turn of events for those who are really dedicated to nonviolent direct action, as a way of life which clearly John Lewis was. And as Dr. King was, so that, yeah, there was there was so much tension and so much anger, and some of it right played out and sort of lashing out against one another, which you know, is, as I look at, as a historian, I am seeing, oh, divide and conquer, how effective and I can see it happening sometimes with young people today where, you know, those old notions of are you radical enough? Are you Black enough? Are you, you know, are you fighting the fight hard enough? You are not doing it my way. That is often, you know, you start thinking about agent provocateurs from the F.B.I. back in the day, right, some of that friction was surely promoted by right the F.B.I., and its COINTELPRO, and by others who were like happy to see conflict within the movement.
SM: 1:07:50
Right.
NB: 1:07:51
So, I am always cautious about seeing these things as a fight from within without also wanting to look for what, what are the external pressures creating that?
SM: 1:07:58
I think Black power also had somewhat of an influence on African American students in their protest against the Vietnam War. Because at Kent State University in 1970, you did not see any of Black faces, you might. There was an effort, James Michener wrote the first book on Kent State, it got full of mistakes, full of mistakes, and everything else.
NB: 1:08:09
Yes-yes.
SM: 1:08:11
But, what he does talk about in there is there was an effort made to make sure that no African American student was on the, out there with a white stripe-
NB: 1:08:23
That is right.
SM: 1:08:24
-on that protest. And that, you know, because our role is to be fighting for civil rights issues, not about the Vietnam War. And-
NB: 1:08:37
It is also because they knew they get, you know, they knew that they were, would get, you know, they would be the first ones to get hurt.
SM: 1:08:43
Right.
NB: 1:08:44
And they knew it.
SM: 1:08:46
Yeah, and that that is really interesting, because nobody talks about it.
NB: 1:08:52
Right.
SM: 1:08:52
And if you look at the pictures, I do not see any African American students.
NB: 1:08:56
That is why I think Tom Grace's book is really useful.
SM: 1:08:59
Right.
NB: 1:08:59
I think he really fills in the relationship between the anti-war activists and the Black union students who are also very active on campus, and were engaged in anti-war activism but that they were really aware of what were the danger moments, and when they saw white students acting out, they were not going to get in the way because they knew that they would be the, the targets.
SM: 1:09:17
I want to read something that you wrote in, on page 59 of your book.
NB: 1:09:22
Let us rip that bad boy open and see what I said.
SM: 1:09:25
And it is, it is the beginning of the second paragraph there is, I just I grew up down here. I just, I said I have to have this in the interview. "This was certainly true in Mississippi, where the growing influence of Black power prompted a hostile and militarized response by the authorities. Across the state at the historically white institutions that had begun integrating at the HBCUs, African American students are organized first on their own campuses, and then between campuses across the state. Like African American students around the country, they focus on the persistent white internalism of those who control their educations, the absence of student voices and campus governments. I know that, I experienced that, the need for an intrusion of African American curriculum, faculty and administrators into their educations and the career, and the under resourcing that lead to a second-rate educators and education." I thought that was a very well written, I had to, I had to quote it, and it is get into the, the law and order thing. So I just, I do not know if you have any more to say on that, or?
NB: 1:10:37
No, I just it goes back to a point that you made earlier, which is, as we think about the changes that were taking place, on college campuses, in particular, when thinking about Black college campuses, the ways in which students were in the lead, right, they were the ones who understood what they wanted and needed. And that is how we end up with a wonderful African American studies programs that we have today, with some of the, the still too limited Black leadership on our institutions. That, they understood what they needed, and what they wanted. And they were the ones really pushing for the change that, you know, so many of us, you know, came to be the beneficiaries of I would say, in my own case. And, and also, I would note that that paragraph is based on work that was done by other scholars who have done the work of researching, and helping us understand the kinds of things that were taking place in that, in that era, beyond the Jackson State campus.
SM: 1:11:32
Right.
NB: 1:11:34
I think especially of, of Professor Williamson, who's up at the University of Washington here, right in Washington state who has just done wonderful, wonderful work on the history of Black education in Mississippi and more broadly, Joanne Williamson, she wrote, "Black Power on Campus," on the University of Illinois, was one of her early books, and then she wrote, "Radicalizing the Ebony Tire, Ebony Tower," which was really, really influential for me.
SM: 1:12:01
You, you talked about the trials afterwards as well, and, and nobody was really charged with a crime.
NB: 1:12:10
No.
SM: 1:12:11
Yeah.
NB: 1:12:13
No, they were not. The two. It is really horrifying. The two grand juries are influenced by their, the first one is led by a federal grand jury by a horrific man who was well known as a racist, long beforehand, he had overseen the trials for Freedom Summer, for instance. And so, it was the murder of Cheney Schwerner and Goodwin, Goodman over Freedom Summer, and he, his, his sort of charges to the jury are just laced with the sort of law and order, racially inscribed law and order rhetoric that we associate with that time period, and that is so costly, and the same sort of viewpoint is done by the hounds, Hinds County grand jury as well. So, the only person who is ultimately charged with, first charged with a crime is a Black man, not unlike what happened in Orangeburg, and eventually, the charges against him will be dropped for lack of evidence, and he will plead out on another on another charge. So, no the legal system is a complete failure for them. When they tried to sue, they are unsuccessful in the first suit. But, they had known all along that they would likely be unsuccessful at the local level. But when it goes to appeal, they are successful. But, it turns out that all the officers are covered by sovereign immunity. So, they try to take the case to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court is unwilling to hear it.
SM: 1:13:45
The, Kent State is, has been paying tribute for years for the four who died and the nine who were wounded. And I know Jackson State has been paying tribute to the two who died. But, what about the ones that are wounded? And, do they keep, is there a list so that people do not forget the students who were wounded?
NB: 1:14:07
I think that is a really interesting question. I think the answer is kind of no. I think some of those who were wounded have been very outspoken and active, including one man whose-whose written a couple of personal accounts of what took place on those days, but the vast majority of them have, have been relatively quiet. Vernon Steve Weakley is the man, I should say his name aloud who has written a couple of books about his experiences with the shootings, and what it meant in his life, and he has been very active, and very public about it. But there are others who are, who are quiet about it, who have chosen not to, to be public figures about what took place in their lives. Some of whom were really anxious to be interviewed, some of whom were, I did not know how to find, but so it is, I can say that many of those who were at Jackson State in 1970, have gone on to really remarkable public careers. I tried to talk about that, in my book, the ways in which many people were inspired to try to make change, because they could not, you know, could not stand what had happened to them- and to, to the kids around them. But I also know that there are people whose lives were really influenced, you know, in negative ways by what took place, and who, you know, really feel that, that what was possible for them and, the capacities they had, went somewhat, unmet because of the, the derailing that, that shooting had-had in their life.
SM: 1:15:14
Right. You know at Kent State, I think two of the nine, just want, want to have their privacy, so.
NB: 1:15:40
Yeah, yep.
SM: 1:15:41
But, seven of them have been willing to come back to events and speak, and.
NB: 1:15:44
It has been interesting people who, who had not been to events who were there, not necessarily people were injured, but just even people who have been at the dorm that night. I talked to one man who had not been back in, I was there for the 45th. And he had not been back for any of the remembrances until that one.
SM: 1:16:03
Wow.
NB: 1:16:03
Turned out, he was a really close friend of Philip Gibbs. And he ended up letting me interview him, he was not sure about it. And I said, you know, just think about it. There is no pressure but, and we ended up having a really, really powerful conversation, and-
SM: 1:16:18
Is there anything for those two that had been done in their name, besides having a plaque or a-
NB: 1:16:26
We had a whole, there is a, the whole plaza walkway through the middle of campus, so they closed off Lynch Street. And it is a plaza, kind of walkway through the middle of campus, and it's named for both of them.
SM: 1:16:35
Very good. Very good.
NB: 1:16:37
It is really good. And that was, that was a plan that people had, I think in mind, perhaps, from the get go, because the students had wanted Lynch street closed for a long time.
SM: 1:16:45
And when you kill a person, or a young person you are, you are destroying a legacy of that person.
NB: 1:16:50
Yep, no that is right.
SM: 1:16:52
Every young person deserves a legacy.
NB: 1:16:54
Yeah, that is right.
SM: 1:16:55
That is why it is so sad. I have a simple question here. Did, did Black lives matter at Jackson State in 1970 and in the America of 2020? And again, the simple question, Do Black lives matter at Jackson State, In Jackson, Mississippi, and in America?
NB: 1:17:16
What, in today?
SM: 1:17:17
Today.
NB: 1:17:19
Whew. I cannot speak to Jackson, or to the campus, I think with the insider knowledge that the question deserves. I think that the state of race relations in the United States right now is, is, is, is devastatingly unchanged. For all of I think, very sincere concern expressed in the spring of 2020. I have not seen measurable change. I am seeing instead the taking away of Black votes, which is for me incredibly regressive, and will be devastating to the well-being of the country. I see ongoing police shootings of young Black people even in my own community. I see outspoken racism, being, you know, spoken by people in leadership positions. I see people being elected to office who have continued to support what I would argue with, you know, a horrifically racist president who was voted out in 2020. So, I think we are, I, do Black lives matter, they matter enormously. Are they treated with, that as if they matter? No, no.
SM: 1:18:39
It is another issue that I, you kind of reflect upon or, you know, these great stories, your books, revealing the truth about what happened at Jackson State. It is how all this hard work that was done for so many decades, is now being challenged, to, for setbacks and, and of course, everything's red state, blue state, you know, hawk and dove, and all these other things. So, you know, they always put you in a category so, if you even question, or bring it up, you are one of those. So it, it you know, I, keep bashing some of the people that gave their lives. We did a program once at Westchester University, about the unsung heroes of the Civil Rights Movement, the ones that Dr. King used to always talk about, the people will never hear from, but were involved again, never knew.
NB: 1:18:39
Yep.
SM: 1:18:40
And-and they are probably turning over their graves knowing what is going on, if they knew what was going on today. And that is why as you mentioned, I mean, I think the voting rights issue is such a substantial one, because its implications are so deep, and the vote was so hard fought, I mean to gain, and that it could be being taken away so insidiously. And with such, and yet with such openness is just, I just did not expect it. And I should have that is, that is my you know, that is my whiteness speaking that I can be so naive sometimes. Well at least we know there are two artists who sang songs that reflected on what was happening in Mississippi in the, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s.
NB: 1:20:22
Absolutely.
SM: 1:20:23
And that is Nina Simone.
NB: 1:20:26
Yep.
SM: 1:20:27
"Mississippi Goddamn."
NB: 1:20:29
One of my favorites.
SM: 1:20:30
And Sam Cooke.
NB: 1:20:32
Yep.
SM: 1:20:34
And his famous song. And, boy, when you listen to Sam Cooke, I did this with another person. I said, "it brings tears to your eyes."
NB: 1:20:42
Yep, it does.
SM: 1:20:44
And, and his life ended in a sad way.
NB: 1:20:47
Yep, that is right.
SM: 1:20:49
So, it is just amazing. I have a couple of general questions here that I wanted, I wanted to just ask you. Does, does time you know what happens in time, is things just like a cemetery, you put a stone up and it fades away over time, and does time kill all remembrance events, once those who were alive are no more?
NB: 1:21:15
I do not think so. I think Americans could name all kinds of historical moments and have actually really powerful deep feelings about them, that are far removed from themselves. And that is where what we choose to have, say in our history curriculum really does matter. It is why I think when you see right wing activists calling for the removal of what they are calling critical race theory, it is about trying to decide what we are going to remember what we are going to forget.
SM: 1:21:48
Right.
NB: 1:21:48
And they are very intentionally trying to make sure that we remember a very particular version of our national history, that is false. But that is, is what I would call whitewashed. And I choose that word very intentionally.
SM: 1:22:01
Right.
NB: 1:22:02
So, no, I do not think it is it, I think, in fact, Americans, and I would say, I think even human beings generally, part of what makes us human is having a connection to what came before, to having that sense of connection across time in many cultures, right, the ancestors remain alive and with us. So, no memory, and that it should always, but is it always lost, I just think, I just do not think it is true. I think what we remember is very carefully constructed. Again, I do not usually think of it as conspiratorial, increasingly in 2022, it feels very conspiratorial, or people very intentionally trying to decide what kids are going to learn to remember what they are going to be, not ever be exposed to so that it can be forgotten.
SM: 1:22:45
I only do this based on you know, I go to a lot of events, and I have seen the numbers get smaller and smaller.
NB: 1:22:52
Yep-yep.
SM: 1:22:53
And just, Josiah Bunting III, you know, a conservative, but he is the chair of the World War Two Memorial. He talks, he, when he speaks at the memorial, he has tears in his eyes because he says, "As time goes on, I am, we are doing this memorial to remember what happened in World War Two, that they saved the world." But as time goes on, and it is, it is a lot of people coming there. But the people, there is fewer and fewer attending the events, and fewer and fewer, World War Two vets alive. And then you go to the Vietnam Memorial that opened in 1982, the same thing is happening there.
NB: 1:23:32
Yep, that was really interesting.
SM: 1:23:34
The numbers are dwindling. And at Kent State, even though they were getting great numbers, sometimes. I know the 50th anniversary would have been a big one.
NB: 1:23:41
Yeah, that would have been amazing.
SM: 1:23:42
But, their numbers are even going down as well.
NB: 1:23:44
Yep.
SM: 1:23:45
So, I worry that, it is just me because I was a history major too, like you.
NB: 1:23:50
Exactly. [laughs]
SM: 1:23:52
We cannot forget our history. And that leads me into this question here. What are the main lessons from the (19)60s and early (19)70s that are still in with us? And what are the lessons learned that have been lost as time goes on?
NB: 1:24:10
Those are huge questions. I guess the first lesson learned is that change is possible, that collaboration work, that every person's life is of equal value. And then if we could learn that, it would make for a healthier world for all of us. And alongside that, that the forces in here, I am thinking both the systems in place but also literally the white supremacist, not only systems but the, the viewpoints that undergirded are deeply-deeply-deeply woven into the fabric of the country, and how we live and are, are not easy to unfurl or to pull apart. And we can see that I think in the backlash that, that takes place relatively quickly, and that we are living with even, you know, obviously living with right now, that change is never permanent. So, the hard-fought battles of the 1960s does not mean that we do not have to continue to fight for, for justice. And that justice, I mean, in particular, racial justice, because it is the center of this story. But the other forms of justice, for all human beings, for all the ways in which we are different, that does not change the fact that we are each valuable, but that battle is an ongoing one, that one can only avoid, if one has extraordinary privilege, and that it is incumbent on those that have it, myself included, to be a part of that fight. Because it takes it does, in fact, take some power, as well as a lot of hearts, and energy, and commitment, and sacrifice, to create the kind of change that, in the 1960s was made, not by those with power, but ultimately by those who demanded it. As many people have talked about, including Martin Luther King, those whose names we will not know, but who nevertheless, were the heart of the battle.
SM: 1:26:15
Yeah. In the past, there is a lot of dialogue. I know in the (19)90s, I can remember on college campuses, there is an awful lot of dialogue, but where is the action? Where is the deed? And-and-and many deeds have come but now the deeds are being challenged. And there does not seem to be the dialogue, because what happens now is that people do not listen to anybody they-they, we have very poor listeners. They, it is my way or the highway. And that kind of a mentality that kind of scares me today in the world. I am a believer that conservatives and liberals can work together-
NB: 1:26:56
Absolutely.
SM: 1:26:57
-that red and blue work together, the Black and white to work together.
NB: 1:27:00
Absolutely. Me too, me too.
SM: 1:27:01
And in the, in the interfaith councils of the 1960s, with-
NB: 1:27:05
There you go.
SM: 1:27:06
-Rabbi Heschel, and Dr. King and the civil rights leaders, and the Catholic priests-
NB: 1:27:12
That is right.
SM: 1:27:12
-Father Hesburgh. I mean, they work together, they had lots of differences in our beliefs, but they could work together for common cause.
NB: 1:27:21
Right, and it has to do with having an awareness. What do I want to say, being able to imagine lives that are not your own.
SM: 1:27:28
Right.
NB: 1:27:28
Even though you may disagree, you can understand why someone is coming to the place they come to, so that you can then find the commonalities that you might have as well. No, I agree completely. And I worry so much, because I think so much of what is happening right now, here my partisanship is right, my partisan position is so obvious, but I feel like so much of what is being pushed right now from the right, has a singular lack of that kind of empathy-
SM: 1:27:55
Right.
NB: 1:27:55
-or that kind of awareness of others whose lives are not the same, that you could use the kind of language that, that candidate and then, President Trump use to talk about people from other countries suggests a singular lack of an appreciation for the humanity of other people who are not you.
SM: 1:28:11
Right.
NB: 1:28:12
And I really feel like that is being rewarded now, in some ways. And, I find that horrifying.
SM: 1:28:18
I agree. I agree. I am going to, my last question is something that I have been asking everyone, and that is, what advice or message would you like to give to future generations of students, faculty, and national scholars who will be listening to this tape 50 years from now? What words would advise, 50 years, we are not going to be here. The Boomer generation will not be around anymore. The people who experienced all this stuff from the (19)60s will be gone and (19)70s. Just your thoughts, what words would you advice, give advice to future generations?
NB: 1:28:58
I am not a big advice giver. So, I will take this one to a very simple place, which is what I do for a living is teach history. And at the center of that is really teaching young people to both think critically and question everything, and everyone apt to do it with a little bit of humility. And those were lessons that have been taught to be brought to me by my colleagues, especially my colleagues in African American Studies. And I think that, that has been really sound advice that is been given to me, which is ask questions, think critically, question every source, and every person, and everything, and every idea. But as you do, so bring some humility to it.
SM: 1:28:58
Very good. That is great word of advice, I would say.
NB: 1:29:43
Yeah, I did not create it. It comes to me from others.
SM: 1:29:46
All right. Well, I think. that is it. I want to thank you very much for this interview.
NB: 1:29:50
Well, I thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to think about these things alongside you.
SM: 1:29:55
Yeah, let me turn my tape off here.
(End od Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Nancy Bristow
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
22 June 2022
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Kevin Boyle
Biographical Text
Dr. Kevin Boyle, a native of Detroit, Michigan, is an author and the William Smith Mason Professor of American History at Northwestern University, with a particular interest in modern American social movements. Dr. Boyle is the author of The UAW and the Heyday of American Liberalism, 1945-1968, and Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, as well as several books and articles. He is currently at work on The Splendid Dead, a micro-history of political extremism and repression in the early twentieth century. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Detroit, and his Ph.D. from the University of Michigan.
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1:35:34
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English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Date of Digitization
22 June 2022
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Keywords
Boomer generation; Movements; 1960s; Vietnam war; Anti-war movement; Activism; Americans; Civil Rights Movement, Radicalism, Martin Luther King.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Kevin Boyle
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Lynn Bijou
Date of interview: 22 June 2022
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(Start of Interview)
KB: 00:00
My neighborhood, grade school and high school. And then for undergraduate, I went to the University of Detroit, where I graduated in 1982. So I was there in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s. And then went to graduate school in, at the University of Michigan, where I completed my PhD in 1990. And I would love to have a really exciting story about why I became a historian, but I do not. I really, always gravitated, even in high school to that. I enjoyed most history classes. And when I got to college, I thought that I was going to be, go to law school, I have an older brother, who was going to law school, so I thought that I should do that. And then, I had the wonderful experience of going to a place that was small, and where people, the faculty knew you. And I remember so distinctly a faculty member taking me aside at one point and said, "Have you ever thought about graduate school," and it was like light bulbs going off, you know that someone would think I could do something like that, and have that sort of life that I saw that these faculty members had that seemed wonderful to me, you got to read books, you got to write, you got to teach classes. And so by, say, my junior year of college, I thought, that is the path I would pursue. I had no idea what that meant. My parents were high school graduates, but they had not gone to college. And, I had no idea what that meant. But, it sounded like a very good life. And that is what I did.
SM: 01:48
Now, where have you taught over the years?
KB: 01:52
I, my first job out of graduate school was at the University of Toledo, which was part of the Ohio University System, the public at bio system. And I taught there for three years. But then I moved to UMass [University of Massachusetts] Amherst, which I loved. I taught there for eight years, then, I just sound like I cannot keep a job. Then, I moved to Ohio State where I taught for 11 years. And then in 2013, came to Northwestern.
SM: 02:23
Those are some great schools that you taught at, of course. I went to one of myself, Ohio State. [crosstalk] I was, I went to higher education and student personnel work. So, it kind of set me on my way, for a career in higher education. The book itself, that you, why did you write, "The Shattering?"
KB: 02:47
For a number of reasons, my first- my dissertation and my first book, a lot of it dealt with the 1960s. So, this was an era that I had been immersed in for a very long time. I was at Ohio State, I taught a course on the 1960s, which was one of my favorite things to teach. And I really felt as if, in teaching that course, I felt as if there were some wonderful overviews of the 1960s, books that tried to do, or kind of sweep up the 1960s. But none of them really worked for me. So when I taught that course, I would never had a textbook that I used, for a variety of reasons, there were wonderful books that just were not right for me. And I felt that, I would like to give a shot of writing the sort of book that I would have liked to have seen available, to kind of take that I wanted to take on it. And that is, was the origin of "The Shattering."
SM: 03:46
When you look at that period, 1960s and 1970s, (19)75, what, not just of your book, but what is it about that period that fascinates you, [crosstalk] that, sparks your interest that your, your antenna goes up?
KB: 04:03
I think there is a number of things. And this, actually will tie back one of the main things, will tie back to, growing up in Detroit in the 1960s and 1970s. I was first drawn to the (19)60s as, because of the, really profound moment of racial change. And I think that, that experience is so deeply ingrained in anyone who lived in Detroit, which was such a center of racial conflict and racial tension in that period. That was, so that was kind of the origin point, that here is a period where in all sorts of complicated ways the United States confronted its duty of division. Now it did not solve that division, [chuckles] but it did confront it in multiple ways. And that is, I think, one of the most important stories of the American experience, not just the 1960s, but the American experience. And then, it expanded out from there to the other complex of issues that I think are so decisively important in that period, really dramatic impact of Vietnam War in multiple ways, and the intimate experience of the Vietnam War. The, what I do in the book, that really dramatic expansion, that dramatic confrontation over the government's role in the public role in the regulation of sexuality. But other issues as well, that did not make it into the book, because I did not want to have the book sprawl out in so many directions that it kind of lost the sense of depth and focus. Here is a period for the United States, it embraces the challenge or is confronted with a challenge, I think, is a better way of putting it, of its fundamental promise, its fundamental promise of equality, its fundamental promise of opportunity. It is here that those issues come bursting to the forefront. And I really am, I have literally been drawn to the ways in which that confrontation plays out, and some mixed results of that constitution. I think that is what makes the (19)60s so fundamentally important, and the fact that we are living with those issues in a really direct way to this day.
SM: 04:20
Yeah, I agree. What you do in your book in the area of civil rights and issues dealing with African Americans is, goes way back, and you do a great job of connecting the dots, I always call them, I was a history major too. And connecting the dots between this period, and this period, and this period. And, you know, talking about, you know, in the late 1800s and early 1900s, that there were people that were fighting for equality and justice, and, and there was white supremacy and that whole thing, but what is interesting when you talk about that era of the 1950s, that we always talk, as many people talk about is the age of innocence. It was not so innocent, because-
KB: 06:40
Oh my god, no. [chuckles]
SM: 06:47
-because African Americans were already activists and trying, and you know, and you talked about Little Rock, you know, you talk about what happened at Montgomery bus boycott? Could you talk a little bit about that, the perception that many Americans have, before he talked about the (19)60s, that (19)50s, which was so important for the (19)60s?
KB: 07:50
Yeah, I think to me, there is kind of two really key points that you are really hitting on both of them. One is that, one of the challenges of writing a 1960s book now is that there is this very imposing body of literature that has extended the periodization of movements like the civil rights movement, that movement does not start in Montgomery in 1955. It does not start with Brown v Board of Education, in 1954. It has got this long history, that the Civil Rights Movement has of the (19)50s and (19)60s has to be embedded. That is one of the challenges of writing the book is you got to give people that backstory, because I think that is the story, that there is a continuity, not a break. But then to your more immediate point, 1950s has this kind of, it has, it has been wrapped in this kind of power of nostalgia, it is kind of like you said, Age of Innocence, and Age and, of Complacency. And that is nowhere near the complexity of that, of those years, there is a kind of political coalition that is formed, that takes form in the 1950s, that Dwight Eisenhower is really central inbuilt. It is a political coalition that plays to the benefit of a large swath of Americans, to middle class Americans, to the upper end of the working-class Americans, which is overwhelmingly white, to people in suburban America, but it is a political coalition, and its aim is to provide for those people. And it does that really effectively, and that is for millions and millions of people. It is really important. But there is also this huge number of people, and African Americans obviously are kind of the key group who are shut out of that system. But that system is set up in a way to exclude them, and they are demanding entry into that system. That happened throughout the 1950s, some of them, Little Rock is a perfect example of that. It is one of the most explosive moments of civil rights period, because it is a fundamental constitutional crisis. That is not simply the confrontation out on the street in front of Little Rock High School, though, of course centralized. So of course, that is one key part of it. But it is also a fundamental constitutional crisis. This is about the right of a governor to defy through the National Guard, through the force of the military, constitutional law. And that is 1950 suffrage. The culture front, there is fundamental issues going on, in generations in American culture in the 1950s. So, the idea that somehow America was an innocent place that suddenly lost its innocence in the 1960s, as the [inaudible] read it, of American history, Americans love the idea that we were innocent people. We do it all the time, something dramatic happens in the United States, the first thing people say is, "Ah, we were innocent before September 11. You know, we were innocent, before John Kennedy was assassinated. We were innocent before this, and that," it is a cliché, it is a trope.
SM: 11:26
And what is interesting as a little boy, when I was very young, I was sitting in the T.V. room, and my mom was working in the kitchen, and McCarthy was on, it was the McCarthy hearings. And so I am, I am a little, I am a little boy in 1950. I did not quite understand it. But I did not like him. I did not like that voice. I did not like that man. And then, of course, as I start finding out, my parents talked about him too. You know that is, that is not an innocent period. That is certainly not an innocent period. And certainly the Cold War, the whole concept of Russia, and the nuclear bomb. That is not an innocent period. So, there is a lot-
KB: 12:02
No, definitely.
SM: 12:03
-going on leading into the (19)60s. So, for sure.
KB: 12:05
Yeah, that is a great example. I wish I had thought of it, a terrific example.
SM: 12:11
When, I have a question here, too, regarding your, the knowledge of the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, and looking back and forward, as a historian, this is just your technique, and writing is so good. You go back to periods, and then you, you know, in the area of the Vietnam War, or foreign policy, in the area of civil rights, in the area how government overseas, or sexuality. Did when, when you saw that picture in that book-
KB: 12:44
[laughter]
SM: 12:45
-of the, Cahills were you thinking all of this at the very beginning? Or were you just fascinated by that picture? And by the way, I have that book. [laughter]
KB: 12:56
No, I had, I was just fascinated by the picture, there was something about that photo, that, and I cannot even tell you what it was that really hooked me. When I, you have the book, you know that the caption does not even tell you, it says, "Patriotic American on the west side of Chicago, 1961," that is all it says. There is no mention of Cahill, there is no mention of who these people are, does not say where on the west side of Chicago. I was just fascinated by that picture. And then when I started teaching, over the years, of teaching that course, that I mentioned at Ohio State, I kept being pulled back to that picture. And at some point, or another, I thought, man, it is kind of embarrassing that I am showing these kids this picture. And I have no idea who these people even are. And so that is when I started to look for their story, that was a completely random search for a story because it started with this picture. And it was only as I started to learn who they are that I started to see [inaudible]. These people really are emblematic of a really kind of key dynamic of the 1960s that gets almost no attention. And that so, they became something, that their story became something that I could hang a bigger analytical point on. But no, it all started with looking at that picture, God knows when, and thinking, man, that is interesting.
SM: 14:23
You know, you used two words or two ideas, and they are so important in this book, and particularly when you are talking about the person you just talked about, but you are also talking about my parents, and you are talking about the post-World War II generation, the people that came home from the war, and that is that issue of security, and upward mobility.
KB: 14:42
Yeah-yeah.
SM: 14:43
I mean, that is so, that is so truthful. He talked about truth. That is truth. That was the truth.
KB: 14:50
I really appreciate that. Yeah, and that was the key for me, with that photo once I started putting, getting some information about it. Because it is, in many ways, it is a simple matter of math. That when you see Stella Cahill in the back of that photo, right, tucked away in the back. And I cannot, let me see, it was 1961. She was born in 1960. Right? So she would have been 44-45, because she was 44 at the time because senator birthday. And all you got to do is the math, if you were 44 in 1961, what that means is that you were born at a time, you lived through some of the greatest upheavals of the 20th century, right? You lived through the Great Depression, you lived through World War II as a young adult, kid in the Depression, a young adult in World War II, I had no idea that they had also lived through the terror of the Spanish flu, where she lost her father, and the poverty of the working class, of the lower end of the working class. I had no idea that was the story I was going to find that was just what I came up with. But, the point is that this was a woman. Like your parents probably, like, my friends, they do it a little different because they did not grow up in the United States. But does not matter, the point is that all, these millions and millions of people in the United States who had lived these lives of profound insecurity, and that they finally have this chance to have a life, that is not spectacular, there is nothing extraordinary about the Cahill story. But, that is the beauty of it, see is that they are able to build the safe, stable sense of, you know, of kind of boring lives that I really admired to that. The problem is that those were lives that were bounded by these other forces, right? That their life out on that, very ordinary side street, way out on the west side of Chicago, was bounded by race. There was not a single Black person in that picture in a city that was a quarter Black by 1968. [crosstalk]
SM: 17:06
Go ahead, no you go ahead.
KB: 17:09
Obviously, they did not think about that. It was not like they were, they owned that house since the (19)20s. This was not the case, their story was not the case of white flight. My guess is it never crossed their mind much about whether Black people lived in their neighborhood or not, it was a naturalized thing. It so happened that the Cahill family and again, this is just wind block, made their living on a firm that relied on the military industrial complex. Now they did not make big bombs, they made coffee yearns for the military, [chuckles] but they were tied in military industrial complex. They grew up, their kids grew up in very parochial worlds, those Catholic schools, and their Catholic parish. So, they lived in a society that was bounded by all these restrictions that often-excluded other people, or that played on power relations, relied on power relationships. Those are the very things that get challenged in the (19)60s.
SM: 18:09
When you, those same categories again, when you get into the (19)60s, and you talk about the Vietnam War, you talk about the Civil Rights Movement, and of course, the issue of sex, you know, the Roe vs, versus Wade, and all the other things. It is, that creates a tension of its own.
KB: 18:27
Yep.
SM: 18:27
You know, civil rights creates tension in the, in the racist community who are white people who believe in white supremacy, you got, you know, Vietnam War, when people are coming home, you know, how they were treated when they got home. You know, veterans had a hard time, they were not treated well-
KB: 18:44
Right.
SM: 18:44
-when they returned from the war. So you really hit it, you really hit it very well. I one of the most important things in this book, and you bring it up to is talking to ordinary Americans. You know, we can talk-
KB: 18:59
Yeah.
SM: 18:59
-we all know about a lot of the civil rights leaders, the Black Power leaders, the politicians in Washington, and leaders who are elected, well known leaders of movements, but it is your ability to talk to the ordinary person like the Cahills and, and others. Could you talk about that, how important that is in the history of any era?
KB: 19:20
Yeah, that is really fundamental to me. There is no doubt that powerful people, presidents, and Supreme Court justices, and major civil rights leaders, major movement leaders are important that they shape history, they do. And I think that we are fooling ourselves if we somehow claim they do not. So I think things that are fundamental parts of the story, of the 1960s. But it is also important to see how ordinary people shape and are shaped by large historical forces. To me that is the, that is the part of history that I really love dealing with. I mean, my wife will tell you that I maybe just got a little more fixated, and I should have been a Cahill. [laughter] You know, because I found it so fascinating to dive into an ordinary person's experience, and a huge part of the (19)60s history, about the ways that ordinary people intersect with these large stories. And so, one of the things I have tried to do, the Cahills were the biggest example. One of the things I tried to do throughout the book was weave in the stories that other people swept up in the moments of the 1960s that I think are so pivotally important. So it was important to me to talk about Elizabeth Eckford, walking down the street in front of the troops in front of Little Rock High School in 1957. It was important to me to talk about the Roe v. Wade story through Norma McCorvey in Roe, you know, whose life is very complicated, because ordinary lives are very complicated. And I wanted to get a sense of that story out to, or what I see, as you know, that really fundamental tragedy of Alison Krauss at Kent State, you know, and of course, we know about the events at Kent State it is not like I am uncovering something that has not been written about a million times. But I wanted to do was to find an angle on it that got the human story of Kent State through. And so, I what I did was tried to talk about the reporter going back to her high school to find out what he [inaudible] about her, after her killing, after her murder at Kent State, because I wanted the sense of the tragedy of that event. And the way you get at that is to the experiences, the intimate experiences of ordinary people.
SM: 21:57
Yeah, I actually go to Kent State, I have been to 14 remembrance events at Kent State. And- -and I, you kind of get the feel that you know, all four of the people that died there. You get to know who they were-
KB: 22:03
Wow. I bet.
SM: 22:11
-even though you never met them. And of course, the nine that were wounded, but also how important it is that they have never forgotten at Kent State, those that died at Jackson State, which, a lot of America has forgotten, but certainly at Kent State they have not. And so, when you look at the, the three areas that you talk about in the book where "The Shattering," took place, I have interviewed a lot of people. And I asked a question regarding what was the watershed moment of the (19)60s.
KB: 22:15
Oh, yeah.
SM: 22:42
Watershed event, a one event that defined the period or you feel had one of the greatest impacts on that decade or the, plus the early (19)70s. And, and of course, there is civil rights, there is Vietnam. But for you, I am talking about you as a historian, I know you have picked three, but is there, Is there one that stands out above everything else?
KB: 23:15
Yes, absolutely, it is really a great question. And I know keep saying that, but actually, these are terrific questions. The pivotal event of the 1960s, in my mind, is the Children's Crusade in Birmingham in the spring of 1963. Because what that does, is that is the moment in that event, that "The Shattering," really takes place. It is there that the political alignments that have defined American, the American public life for decades and decades just get shattered open. In that moment where the president of the United States was finally forced to decide which side am I on. And it is at that moment, that the political space of the 1960s that the political realignments of the 1960s are created. So it is, I am not saying that, that event shapes everything that follows, but it creates a new context for everything that follows.
SM: 24:22
Very good, you know, that march on Washington in (19)63 was something and-
KB: 24:28
That is, I think that is one of the great misunderstood events. I mean, now there has been a lot of good scholarly work on that, though, I am not sure how far it reaches. But the thing that, now I am going to get sort of preachy, [chuckles] kind of literally, I think. What I, one of the things I found most difficult in teaching the course, and I try to do with the book as well, is not simply to say and this is the way scholarship has gotten to say, you know, this was about much more than civil rights. It was about the fusion of civil rights and economic troubles and that is absolutely true, and that is really important. What I find maddening, understandable, but maddening is the way that people dismiss [Dr.] King's, "I Have a Dream," speech. And the problem is that as Americans, we have heard it too often, and so it has become a cliché, it has become a string of clichés. And because of that, it is impossible to hear how radical a speech that is. It is impossible to hear the point of that speech that what King is doing in that speech, is he is holding up in the most powerful and public of moments, this radical vision of the beloved community. And one of the things I really try, I do not know how effectively I did, but it was really important to me is to restore, well, let me put it this way, one of the things that scholarship has done, and it is a good thing that scholarship has done, not being critical of that is it is tried to revive the radical king, the king who talked about fundamental economic change. And that is really important. And I agree 100 percent, with the value of doing that. The problem for me in that is that what we have, underplayed and sometimes really are quite dismissive of, is the radicalism of his religious vision. He was first and foremost a religious figure, that there is a profound radicalism in the religious vision that he is presenting to the United States. And I would love to see more of an emphasis on that. But when he talks about when he talks about passive resistance, when he talked about radical love, when he talked about these fundamentally religious topics of redemption, what he was doing was presenting Americans with an alternative way of living, of conceiving their relationship to each other, and to the nation. And why we see, why we dismiss that is just kind of ridiculous idealism, and embrace as radical, an economics agenda is because we are too locked into a very strict sense of what counts as radical. Now, of course, the economic agenda is radical, but so is this vision where he was saying to Americans, "You can, in fact, we replace hatred with love," that is a radical vision. That is a radical reconstruction of the ways that the nation operated and that human beings related to each other. And yet, somehow, we see that it is just kind of rhetoric.
SM: 27:42
Dr. King, was an amazing human being in so many ways. You know, he created not only tension, he created tension within his own group, within the African American community. He did not-
KB: 27:54
Oh yeah.
SM: 27:55
wave like a, "I am going to go to Chicago, there is a lot of racism up north." While he got there, many people in the, in, you know, other civil rights leader says "No, it is in the South," no, it is also in the north. And he went north and knew no one, you were explaining it in your book. Then, of course, his speech on Vietnam. Oh, no, you know, you do not give a shit about Vietnam. You know, it is, you know, you got to deal with civil rights issues at home. And, and then, the challenge of Black power when Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown, you know, you represent more gradualist approach, we are going to, you know, we are just going to do it.
KB: 28:08
Yep. Yeah-yeah.
SM: 28:34
Everything King was doing was creating tension in not only communities that were racist, but also in communities that supported what he was doing, but did not like the techniques that he was using.
KB: 28:49
Yeah, absolutely. I think that is absolutely right.
SM: 28:53
Yeah, in the four presidents that you talk about in the book, you did a great job on all of them. And you give a lot on Eisenhower, which I am glad you did. Because, when you are talking about the (19)60s, oh, he is he is meeting John Kennedy, the day of the election, and talking about Vietnam, and all this other stuff, but it was much more than that. Of the four presidents, when you think of the (19)60s, it is Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. Which one do you feel had the greatest impact on the (19)60s?
KB: 29:25
That is a great question. I keep saying that [chuckles], but I am really fascinated by that. You know, I think it depends on which angle you look at it from. I was, I was surprised myself how important Dwight Eisenhower turned out to be. But and how it kind of, he hovered over the (19)60s as this kind of model that people were, firstly Richard Nixon wanted to emulate. But I think I would argue that it is a balance between Lyndon Johnson for the dramatic moment, the ways in which he actually embraced change, and by the forces of reaction that he originally or even getting there so that he unleashed that I think particularly of the backlash against civil rights, and the kind of more conservative critique of the Vietnam War. And Nixon, who I think to this day has a really enduring impact on American society, and it is one of the ironies of the 1960s, is that here is this period of deep and profound change that results in a kind of conservative reconstruction of American society. And Nixon is a fascinating figure in that reconstruction. Which is, [crosstalk] so, given Kennedy, kind of the least, importance in the 1960s.
SM: 31:18
Do you-
KB: 31:18
Which is also surprising.
SM: 31:20
-yeah there was, there was thoughts also that there were 2 (19)60s. Now, I have read this in books. There were 2 (19)60s, there was a period 1960 to (19)63, and then there was a period (19)64 to (19)75, because a lot of people talk about the (19)60s as the early (19)70s, too. Your thought on that, and of course, it revolves around the assassination of President Kennedy, and the impact that had on America, and the world.
KB: 31:49
I think I do believe that the (19)60s periodization, pushing, definitely pushes into the early (19)70s. I used, once upon a time I think, people, this is a long time ago now, people had a tendency to kind of cut things off in 1968. I think that, that really ruptures important continuity. So I agree with the extension of the period into the (19)60s into the early (19)70s. I am a little less inclined to see that really sharp distinction in the 1960s. I think there is a lot more. There is, it is not just it is not continuity, but I think that the break is not as sharp as that concept of two 1960s suggests it is, I think there is more of a coherent narrative between those periods. There is, there is clearly changes (19)65, I think, is a really important, transformational moment in that, that is the point where the war escalates, that is where voting rights is secure, that is where Griswold was handed down. That is why I devote a chapter to what I called, "The Revolutions of 1965." But I do not, I am a little less convinced by the idea of our kind of (19)60s, the early idealism, and then the divisions later on, the divisions were pretty deep in the early (19)60s too, and the 1950s, as well.
SM: 33:16
I think some people try to, who were believing in those 2 (19)60s. We were saying that, well, there was violence in the, well, it all started with the violence against J.F.K., and it just continued. It was violence, and but there was violence going on before that [chuckles] in the south.
KB: 33:36
Exactly-exactly.
SM: 33:37
So they are generalizing kind of. Now, some of the, I like your thoughts too on the civil rights organizations of the (19)60s. Certainly Snick was a very important one, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference Corps, the Urban League, the Black Panthers, the NAACP. Could you talk about, about some of these organizations, and the impact that they had on the (19)60s? And age had a lot to do with some of these too, because Snick were mostly young people. And, but the-
KB: 33:40
That is the SCLC. I mean, it was, so was SCLC-
SM: 34:16
Huh?
KB: 34:16
-you know, I mean, one of the things that is so startling to my students is how young Martin Luther King was, you know, when the Montgomery Bus Boycott started, in (19)55, he was what, 25?
SM: 34:16
Right. Yes. [laughter]
KB: 34:28
You know, he always seemed older, but he is, but in any case. So in creating the breakthrough moment of the civil rights movement, that moment that runs from the Children's Crusade in (19)63 through Selma in (19)65. That is really good at this critical breakthrough moment. There is no doubt that Snick and SCLC are the driving forces. because they are the organizations that are pushing the direct confrontation of nonviolent protest in the American south, without their pushing that, then the breakthrough moment would not have happened. And that is a really dramatic and challenging moment in a lot of ways. Children's Crusade in (19)63 is an incredibly complex thing to think about because it was about risking children's lives. And there is a serious moral question that runs through that decision to bring kids as young as 8, 9, 10 into the streets of Birmingham, knowing they have could have been killed. But Snick and SCLC [inaudible] two civil rights activism of that period. That get, they are challenged more and more by this long tradition, that runs through the nation of Islam stretches back to Garveyism to the nation of Islam, and then through its movement, Black nationalism, over to Snick in the mid-1960s. The division, the long-standing divisions in Black political life, come to the forefront in the mid-1960s, first with Snick's turn to Black Power in (19)66, (19)65-(19)66 with it is breakthrough in (19)66. And then with the rise of the Black Panthers, really in (19)68, so the Panthers had theirs-
SM: 34:42
Right.
KB: 34:46
- in (19)67-(19)68. With so, with the rise of Black power, and here is one of the things to me, that was really important to me, in writing the latter parts of the book. The NAACP, everybody in kind of moderate wing of the movement, I think has the most radical moment of the rights activism in the entire 1960s. And that is the movement towards the integration of public schools in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s via busing, that is the most radical social experiment of the entire 1960s racial movement. Because what that does, but the NAACP does with that part of the Civil Rights is it says, no longer should it be completely on the shoulders of Black people, particularly Black, young Black people, children to bear the burden of racial change. Now, it's got to be shared by white families as well. And what that does is it pushes the civil rights movement into parts of white America that it had never touched before. There was a huge swath of white suburban America in the 1960, that, of course, saw the civil rights protests on T.V., but of course, saw it in the newspapers, but it did not touch their lives. They did not have Black people living in their neighborhoods, there was nobody sitting down at a lunch counter anywhere in suburban Chicago or suburban Detroit. And then suddenly, what the NAACP does with the busing movement, is it says, oh, no, you are part of the solution too. That is the most radical moment of civil rights activists in the 1960s. At the same time, I am not trying to diminish the Panthers. But, here were the Panthers who were talking about radical change, but whose primary program was a free breakfast program for poor kids. I am not saying there is anything wrong with the free breakfast program. I am simply saying, that is a pretty mild program you got going on there, when you are talking about the revolutionary change. Here is the NAACP that everybody thinks of as racial moderate, who defined themselves as racial moderates, for a good part of the 1960s who are pushing change that is going to bring racial change directly into the homes of millions of white people across the country. And that is fascinating to me.
SM: 39:07
Snick, the people that were in Snick, the leaders that came from this is unbelievable.
KB: 39:14
Oh.
SM: 39:15
I was looking at the list just last week, there is about 60 names of people who went on to become, you know, in all walks of life, leaders of organizations, running for office heading-
KB: 39:26
Yeah.
SM: 39:26
-you know. Julian Barnes, just one of them. I mean, one other thing and just, I have heard this today, where are the leaders? Where are the Black leaders that used to be the leaders of the (19)60s and when you when you think about it, there is some truth. You had a Roy Wilkins, you know, Martin Luther King, you had a James Farmer, you had a Whitney Young, you had a Roy Wilkins. You had young people like John Lewis, and Robert Moses, and Stokely Carmichael, and Panthers like Bobby Seale, and you know, Fred Hampton, who was murdered, and-and Huey Newton, and then you think of Malcolm X, the Muslim, Muhammad Ali, [inaudible] with the young. It is just, they were on the news all the time they, you saw them there. They mean they were known. I do not, today, I do not really see that many. And, where are they?
KB: 40:24
I think the media landscape has changed so dramatically. You know that here was, one of the really important I wish I had done more about this really, aspects of the 1960s was the novelty. The still novelty of television, you know that the idea of having T.V. news in your home was still 10 years, was new to a huge number of Americans, it did not have a history longer than about 10 years, in the early 1960s for most Americans. And in some ways that is comparable to the world that we now live in, where the generation that, of young people today are living with a technological world that they think of as natural, but is actually more than 10 years old, you know, the idea that you are having your news delivered to you on these multiple platforms that you carry around with you. And I think what that is done to a certain extent is that it is dissipated our sense of political movements. So that, you know, there were only three networks in most of America in the 1960s. They had the ability to kind of create public figures in a way that the more diffused media landscape does not, but that it has not changed, I think, the movement, the ability of a movement to build, if anything that I think it's accelerated it. You know, one of the things that I have stressed with my students lately is that, as a percentage of the nation, more people marched in the protests after George Floyd's murder, in the summer of 2020, then marched at any point in the course of the 1960s. So of course, when in the 1960s, about 10 percent of the population, participated in at least one march or protest, somewhere in the course of the 1960s. Ninety percent of Americans never joined a protest anywhere in the course the 1960s. In the summer of 2020, somewhere about 14 percent of Americans joined at least one march.
SM: 42:45
Wow.
KB: 42:48
It can still be there. But I think like you said, the sense of kind of key personalities at the start of them. That is changed.
SM: 42:58
That word, that comes up in the (19)60s all the time, the word about freedom.
KB: 43:04
Yeah.
SM: 43:05
When you think, I, you look at some of the main events and Freedom Summer, which was so historic in 1964, you had-
KB: 43:13
Yeah.
SM: 43:13
-you had the Freedom Rides early in the (19)60s, you had the free speech movement at Berkeley, which is a historic happening. And of course, the man who led that movement at Berkeley was one of the young people at Freedom Summer, Mario Savio. Your thoughts on the word, "freedom," with respect to all the things that were happening in the (19)60s, in terms of the three categories you are talking about and how important that word is?
KB: 43:42
Yeah, it is, it is a fundamentally important word that had different meanings for different people. So that when the civil rights activists of Freedom Summer, or the activists have the Freedom Rides used that word, they meant freedom from oppression, freedom from the oppression of the Jim Crow system. Free speech is connected, as you said, that there is a direct line from Mississippi to Mario Savio up to Berkeley that fall, but there is an expression of freedom from structures of, kind of, university structures of mass education. And then you get to the politics of freedom that runs through say Haight Ashbury in the Summer of Love, there it is freedom from constraint. And that is a really, very different sense of freedom, you can do as you want to do, was a very different sense of freedom than John Lewis on a bus challenging the segregation of bus stations.
SM: 45:01
Right.
KB: 45:02
That is a very different concept. And it is one of the tensions that went through the (19)60s, and that runs through, that, individuals should be free to do as they choose. And another to say, individuals should be free from systems of oppression. That is a really, very different things.
SM: 45:27
The birth of beats played a very important role in the (19)60s too, in terms of, they were ahead, ahead of their time in the (19)50s. But they all had, they had an influence too, and they were, everything and everything they were about is freedom. [chuckles]
KB: 45:42
Yeah.
SM: 45:42
Do it, do it my way. [chuckles]
KB: 45:44
And that is another really good example of the (19)50s as being a much more complicated period than we think of it as being, right.
SM: 45:53
Yeah. What is the, you know I have, I have been amazed and I have thought about this ever since I was in college, and now I am in my early (19)70s. And that is, why does Vietnam, this war, it was not World War II, it was not World War I, it was not Korea. It was not the Gulf War, while the Gulf War was not that big, but it was not the, the wars in the Middle East. What is it about this war from (19)59 to (19)75, that has really shaped this nation, not only his foreign policy, but in everything? Why-why has the Vietnam War continue to have such an effect on our society? George Bush in 1989 said that, "The Vietnam syndrome was over," when I heard that I said, "Where has he been?" And, [laughter] that was, that was in 1989. But just your thoughts, why does Vietnam still, to this day affect us in so many ways?
KB: 46:58
I think there is multiple reasons for that. One really obvious one, is that and it ties back to something we were talking about a couple minutes ago, Vietnam was the first, in some ways almost the last, televised war, so that suddenly what Americans could see who had never been to war. So, you are not talking about World War II veterans, but their families or younger families, could actually see if what war actually looks like, and war is a horrific thing to see. So I do think that was one key piece of it. For the first time, you know, Americans, the American government censored World War II, and obviously, the means of communication were different, to a really dramatic degree, so that Americans could see, you know, the war movies where nobody bleeds, it is a whole different thing to see the footage of someone getting shot in the head on the streets of Saigon, or the young girl running down the street, down the road, being napalmed, to the photos from me live, to see the horror, that war actually is, is one key part of that. Another key part of it is the really, really deep effects that the war has, in turn, and I think we still underplayed this, in terms of domestic economic policy. And I do try to play a bit more about this, the war has an absolutely destructive effect on the American economy that gets replayed over and over again in the United States, in the decades since with the triggering of inflation, with the destruction of the post-war international economic order, so I do think that is a key part of it, as well. And then there is this fascinating thing that happens with our sense of the anti-war movement it is two fascinating things, because there is, of course, a massive anti-war movement, or as I try to suggest in the book, there are multiple anti-war movements in the United States. One of the things that is odd about our sense of the anti-war movement, is that when we tend to think of World War II is the standard by which we measure American wars, when in fact, World War II is the anomalous war, Americans have always had strong protest movements against wars. They just come in different forms. There is a massive anti-war push against the Civil War. There were strong oppositions to World War I. There were strong oppositions to the Philippine Wars and the Spanish American War. There was massive opposition in particular forms to Korea. The popularity of the Korean War just absolutely plummeted in the course of that war and it certainly fueled the rise, not the creation, but the rise of McCarthyism. But somehow, we see the anti-war move into the night of Vietnam, as somehow really new and different. Now, they are in their form, they are very large, and that is certainly traumatic. But I think that is kind of lodged, that is that Vietnam syndrome, right.
SM: 50:23
Right.
KB: 50:23
Somehow the United States government is complicit in a disastrous war, which of course, the United States government was complicit in disastrous war. That is what we have to shake, that we are going to make the military strong again, and beloved again, then we are going to prove the United States could be a world power that it was before Vietnam. It is just funny that we tend to think of it as anomalous when in fact, it is in the American tradition. That is what Lyndon Johnson was terrified of, not afraid of [inaudible], of the left but of the anti-war movement of the right, which he assumed he was going to get slammed by, which was what had destroyed Harry Truman and Korea, it is the anti-war movement of the right. And we actually see that playing out today, where it is a great criticism of U.S. involvement in Ukraine is from the right. And that ran through Vietnam as well. So, I think Vietnam has an outsized influence, because of the visuals of it, because it did in fact, have an outsized effect on society. And because of that anti-war movement, that, or anti-war movements that were so fundamental to the polarization of American politics.
SM: 51:47
The war, not only those who participated in the war, we knew what was going on over in Vietnam. What was happening in civil rights in America was actually happening with a lot of the African American soldiers in Vietnam.
KB: 52:00
That is right.
SM: 52:01
The experience they have and they were certainly dying in large numbers too, with their names that are now on the Vietnam Memorial. But-
KB: 52:08
Yeah.
SM: 52:08
-it is also the fact that when-when they came home, there was no welcome for the Vietnam vets.
KB: 52:14
Yes, yep.
SM: 52:15
And it took the building of a wall in 1982, to, for the first time the Vietnam vets, they were welcomed home, and tried to heal the nation, but no other war, that I can think of, had where Americans just kind of said nothing, or looked down on this.
KB: 52:36
Yeah, I agree completely. And I think the American soldiers experience in Vietnam, not all-American soldiers, obviously, but the American soldiers experience in Vietnam was for them, I think so profoundly disillusioning because of the way the war was fought. And then they come, they came home to a sense that what they had done, was not recognized was not valued, was some cases, seen as in fact, complicit in war crimes. And, it is devastating because I will give you a really small example, I lived, when I was teaching at UMass, I lived in a small town. I did not live in Amherst, I lived in a small town outside of Amherst, I could not afford Amherst. And every Memorial Day, there would be the Veterans of Foreign Wars would do a little parade. And, veterans refused to allow the Vietnam vets to march in their parade, this is, you know, the late 1990s. Because, and so they barred the Vietnam veterans from our little town to participate in the parade on Memorial Day.
SM: 53:53
Wow.
KB: 53:54
And you know, I guess that would be the more conservative version of disrespecting those soldiers experience and those soldiers sacrifice.
SM: 54:06
Yeah, I am. One of the individuals I interviewed, John Morris, who is a Vietnam vet from the Westchester area, when he came home somebody took them to the Veterans of Foreign Wars Office and they told him to leave because, because he was a Vietnam vet, and yes, John is unbelievable. Before I ask my next question, there is something here regarding John Kerry's speech too that I thought was very important during the war, when Vietnam Veterans Against the War threw their, you know their-their medals away, and then John Kerry spoke before the Foreign Relations Committee. I think that is a powerful speech, a very powerful-
KB: 54:46
It is.
SM: 54:47
-very powerful speech, but the man who allowed that, that hearing to take place Senator William Fulbright, he had written several books that were classics on the Vietnam War, you probably We read them. But he, I mean, yeah, we ended up bringing, I took a group of students to see William Fulbright before he died down to Washington. And, and he was, he wanted to know why, I knew Senator Gaylord Nelson, so we actually talked about the war. And I took pictures, and then I took pictures of him with our students, and then I had put it in my office. And we invited Harry Edwards to campus, you know, Dr. Harry Edwards from Berkeley who was- -and of course, he was the one of the leaders of the protests at Cornell in (19)69, and the (19)68 protests in the, and everything. And Dr. Edwards came in and said, "What is that picture doing here? Why do you have a picture of that cracker?" [laughs] Yeah, in your office, and I explained to him, "Well, I know that, you know that Senator Fulbright was not good in the area of race relations, but he was really good in the area of foreign relations and, and, and he had already apologized for what he had done in the, in the one area, but he was powerful in the other area, trying to save lives." But I just want to throw that as an anecdote. [laughs]
KB: 55:29
Yes. Yeah. And you know what it says to me, the world is a complicated place. We all do better to recognize it. [chuckles]
SM: 55:38
Yeah. [chuckles] One, one very powerful moment you talk about in your book, too, is when Black power came to be. When Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, you know, he was really, he was really to the extreme left but, but it was Stokely and his challenge of Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, young Louis Bebo, all the loss and all the civil rights leaders who believed in non-violence. That was, the Dr. King's beloved community versus Black power. Could you talk about that? Because that was powerful happening.
KB: 56:56
Oh, yeah. So, I think this comes back to something we talked about a good bit ago now. That, the tradition of Black nationalism, Black power, is very deep in the Black community. So it stretches back at least to the 19, late 19th century, this argument that essentially says, "Look, people are never going to agree, just surrender their power, we have to force them to, and we have to do it, or we have to separate ourselves out from the Black, the white community as the only way to build to safety and security for our community." That is a long tradition. And one of the things that happens in the 1950s, and particularly in the 1960s, is that whites are confronted with that tradition for the first time. So, they see Malcolm X and they think this is coming out of nowhere. It is not, it is coming out of this long political tradition, but it is a minority political tradition inside the Black community. It always was, it is in the course of the 1960s. And so when Stokely Carmichael embraces, creates that phrase of "Black power," and nationalizes that phrase it causes massive media attention. The other side of the, the Black political traditions, the sides that is represented by the NAACP, or by Dr. King, or by John Lewis. They have their, Rushton is probably the smartest analyst at this moment in my mind. They say, "We know this, this, it is not like we have never heard of this idea before. This is part of the political tradition in our community. But whites are going to be terrified by it." And as Rushton says over and over again, "We are in minority community. And so we cannot have, we cannot afford to have a politics that alienates whites, because they have got, they have got the real power here." And his great fear, and he is coming from another, a different political tradition, is great fear is what Black power is going to do, it is going to intensify the white backlash, and it does. So, the truth of the matter is that while Black nationalism is not new, while it is a powerful expression, and powerful critique of white society, and I think, in my mind, a really important critique of white society, politically, it is got disastrous consequences, because white support for civil rights was always dead. And what King had done is he had managed to build up enough white support to push through these fundamental changes in the law, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. And, but he knew how thin it was at the height of the nonviolent movement in 1963, about half of white Americans think that it is a violent movement. [chuckles] Because they are so ingrained with the idea that Black people are violent. And it is such a troupe of American racism. King knows how thin it is and what Black power does is it plays to that. It said, it plays on that idea of what you, you think I am about, you are right. But, it is your fault. And that is a really dangerous politics to play in the United States. Because as Rushton realizes, losing white support is so harmful to a movement, to a minority movement in American society, in some ways what, this is the kind of odd turn and I am not sure I would even stand by it. So, let us see how this goes. In some ways, King's side of the movement, Rushton's side of the movement, NAACP's side of the movement, they actually might have understood the depth of white racism better than Black power does. Because Black power has at its heart, one piece of itself that seems to think that whites aren't going to assert the power they have, whereas King, knows they will.
SM: 56:58
Yeah. Yeah, that was a great analysis there, excellent. And I know, Malcolm X was one of the required readings in the sixth. I went to Binghamton University, and I remember reading the book on Malcolm X, and by "any means necessary," was kind of a scary term. [chuckles] We will do anything-
KB: 1:01:44
Yep.
SM: 1:01:44
-or we will shoot if we have to, that was kind of the, but-but-but if you know, Malcolm, you know, he grew and evolved over time. And that the last two years of his life, he was changing, I think, in much better ways. And then sadly, he was murdered. And, we never will know those ways that he would have gone.
KB: 1:02:06
Yeah.
SM: 1:02:08
The other thing here is, during the (19)60s, there were many movements. I know, you have made mention in your book that, you know you concentrated on civil rights, but they are, the (19)60s was about the movements to as well. It is not just the civil rights movement, but the gay rights, the women's movement, the environmental movement, Native American movement, Chicano movement, even the farmworkers movement. And of course, the Vietnam veteran’s movement. And so, your thoughts on that? Was not, but I think civil rights movement was the model that most of them used.
KB: 1:02:43
Yeah, absolutely. Civil rights is both, it is, you said, it is both the models that they used, the inspiration for those other movements. And it is the pathbreaking movement, as I said, you know, as we were talking, maybe half an hour ago, I said, since that, that sort of, march from 1963 is so fundamentally important, because it opens up that space, it opens up the space for other movements to then step in as well. You know, take the women's movement, for instance, National Organization of Women is founded out of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which is a creation of those children in the streets of Birmingham. So, that case is kind of a direct line. The united farmworkers movement comes out of grassroots organizing that is very much tied to the King model, you know, it runs through [inaudible] in Chicago, but it is very much tied to King models, a shortcut that is for safe, kind of grassroots activism, that people like Ella Baker was so important in defining. So, one of the painful things for this bucket, and I mentioned this in the introduction, one of the painful movements, things about this book is say, I am going to leave important stories out, right, because what I want to do is I want to have these tight focus on what I think are the really critical, the most important of all those important movements. And, you know, it pains me I mean, it is I was finishing the book, especially on Latino politics. It really pains me to leave that out. But, I do agree that civil rights is the standard by which other movements are set.
SM: 1:04:31
Yeah, and it is a well-known fact that people that were involved in the anti-war movement, used the civil rights movement as their model.
KB: 1:04:39
Absolutely-absolutely.
SM: 1:04:39
And over and over again. And you talk also, you know, when Black power came, and challenged of nonviolent protest. That-that happened in the anti-war movement too, when the weathermen, you know Students for Democratic Society.
KB: 1:04:41
Yep.
SM: 1:04:43
You know, they, people would quit SDS, if they had, they had to go all the way of the weathermen.
KB: 1:05:02
Yeah.
SM: 1:05:03
That violence was not the way, because you know, violence in the end, never solves anything.
KB: 1:05:08
Well, and on top of that, you know, the federal government is, wields, has at its disposal, a level of violence power that is so greater than any social movement is going to have. Now, I am not trying to say that the federal government is inherently a violent organization. It just has greater power. This is wonderful moment. Remember the old "Eyes on the Prize," series. There is this great moment in the episode that deals with Mississippi, University of Mississippi crisis in (19)62. And they are interviewing, the filmmakers are interviewing Burke Marshall, in the Justice, Kennedy Justice Department. And he says this really fundamentally true thing. He said, "You know, these people down in Mississippi," and he is talking about white people in Mississippi, "They can fund the federal government. But in the end, the federal government is going to win. Because if the federal government wants to it can send the battleship down the Mississippi River." And that is fundamentally true, the weathermen could talk about staging days of rage. But in the end, if it came to it, they were not going to topple the federal government, you know, when the urban rebellions hit in cities like Detroit, in the end, they were repressed by massive force, and people were killed. That is the challenge of movements that embrace violence, but it is, it can be even an understandable decision, right? That you have tried the nonviolence it does not seem to be making the changes you want to see. But in the end, the federal government or state and the state government, for that matter, have way more violent capabilities.
SM: 1:05:41
Oh, yes. I remember that, you may remember this too. There was a paper back that came out I think it was in the (19)70s by Ovid Demaris called "America the Violent." [laughs] So and, it goes into the, that violence is all bad.
KB: 1:07:19
Yep.
SM: 1:07:20
But, America is very used to it.
KB: 1:07:23
Very, yes.
SM: 1:07:24
Yeah. Colonel Harry Summers, I do not know if you have heard of him. He is the, he is the man, the original editor of Vietnam Magazine, and he was an author- -of a couple of books on strategy in Vietnam, once told me we were trying to get him to come to speak at Westchester University to be, for our, when we bought the traveling Vietnam memorial, and we did a four-day event, and we had Vietnam War programs the entire semester. And sadly, he died of cancer before he could come. But he told me over the phone, that college professors who teach courses on the (19)60s on the Vietnam War, rarely talk about the war from a military point of view, mostly from the protester's point of view, or the politician's point of view. So, think tank point of view. Your thoughts on that? Because he was adamant on that, and he was the founder of Vietnam magazine. And, he was actually writing a speech. And I said, when he died, I tried to say, "Can-can I get that speech from his wife," wife said, "No." But he had written a speech to present and I am sure the wife has also passed away. But your thoughts on that, that the universities that have been concentrating on teaching courses on the Vietnam War and on the (19)60s, rarely present the military point of view?
KB: 1:07:32
Oh, yes. Yeah, I think that is actually a valid criticism. I think that is fair. You know that, I mean, obviously, I cannot speak for everybody who teaches a course. But, that certainly would be my impression as well. And, I think I probably do quite a bit of that myself. And I think that is probably a valid criticism.
SM: 1:09:08
Yeah, I just bought two books from a used bookstore, and it is the U.S. Army books on the Vietnam War, so. [laughs] And they were expensive. [crosstalk]
KB: 1:09:19
Like that, you know, those federal government histories that come out of the Department of Defense, or they come out of other, they are great, you know, they are very particular kinds of history, but they are really useful.
SM: 1:09:33
Well I, that three of them just came to this, and they were $50 apiece. I bought them.
KB: 1:09:39
Oof.
SM: 1:09:39
I, because I want them, I have never seen them before. So anyway, one of the other things is you talk about the ordinary people, could you list maybe a few more, not so well-known people from your book that people may not know, but their-
KB: 1:09:55
Sure, so.
SM: 1:09:56
-experiences are just as important as well-known people?
KB: 1:09:58
Well, because we are talking about Vietnam, I talked about, I tell the story open the chapter on Vietnam, actually with this story of James Farley, who is an ordinary soldier in Vietnam in 1965, who ends up being featured in a Life Magazine story about the war. So, this sounds an awkward thing to say, I hope it does not sound jerky to say this. But the passage in the book that I am actually most proud of where I feel like strongest about is in that chapter, where I talk about ordinary soldiers who were killed in the war, 1966 to 1967. And I kind of list, people whose names I pulled randomly. Well, not randomly, but I pulled from the Vietnam War Memorial, from different parts of the country, and about their bodies coming home, and the flags being presented to their families. That is really important to me to talk about the ordinary soldiers, you know, who were drafted or who volunteered, and ended up as frontline troops in Vietnam. I mentioned talking about Norma McCorvey, that was really fundamentally important to me. All the way through, I try to bring in as many people as I could, whose story is people that maybe they know the events, but whose stories they do not necessarily know, so protesting against the war, like this, the folks or the kids at Kent State. I just think it is, again, I guess I am repeating myself, just so they feel like fundamentally, the one, both, the import, those powerful, important people we know, and those ordinary folks down in the neighborhoods, or down in these horrible moments.
SM: 1:11:53
Very good. One of the things you say in the book, you quote Daniel Bell early in the book.
KB: 1:12:02
I asked. [chuckles]
SM: 1:12:03
Dan, and I actually interviewed Daniel Bell, he was not well, but I interviewed him up at Harvard. And the thing is, could you talk about that, what he said?
KB: 1:12:15
Yeah, so this is one of the kind of classic senses again, it kind of takes us back to the 1950s, that you know we had entered into an age of consensus, that each was the great causes of the past had been set aside, and that we had created a consensus society and needless of that, I am not a big fan of increasing consensus society. And I just think that is, you know, I am a great admirer of technical writing, but it is fundamentally wrong, I think, to say that we are, the 1950s was a period, post-war period, is a period of consensus, is to say that, is to miss all those people that the consensus excluded. And, it is a huge portion. [chuckles] It is a substantial portion of American society, because it was not a consensus. The Civil Rights folks did not believe that there was a consensus in the United States, the beats, did not think we have a consensus in the United States. What happened in the 1950s was that Dwight Eisenhower, who was a brilliant politician, portrayed himself as a hapless one. This brilliant politician, managed to create a political coalition that pre-sagged the Republican majority, he was building the modern American Republican majority, not the one that exists now but, the one that would consolidate under Richard Nixon in 1972, was ticking away, it would already broke solid south, it carried most of the upper cells in both of his elections, he consolidated the white vote, white vote becomes Republican in the United States in 1952. And it has remained that way in every single election since then, except for 1964. But it actually starts in (19)52. He consolidated the connection between the upper end of the working class and the American middle class, particularly in suburban areas, he was building a Republican political coalition that, then gets and that is the, that is what we call a consensus is, in fact, a particular political alignment that was committed to certain things. Pursue a Cold War, but do it off the front pages, maintain racial segregation, but without the kind of brutality of the Jim Crow stuff, which is the democratic political order. We maintain middle class, middle brown culture that Dwight Eisenhower perfectly embodied that excluded people like gay and lesbian Americans. That is a political construction that Daniel Bell and other commentators in the 1960s, called a consensus. Well, it was not the consensus. It was a political culture that arranged particular groups of people, a lot of them in a particular order. And then the (19)60s, cracks that open, and what Richard Nixon tries to do, was his goal really, is to put it back together again.
SM: 1:15:29
Yeah.
KB: 1:15:30
Because he is in fact, trained by, in politics, by Dwight Eisenhower, he thinks of himself as trying to fulfill, to recreate what Dwight Eisenhower created. The problem, of course, is that he was not. He was no Dwight Eisenhower, [laughs] and that the changes of the (19)60s were not reversible in the way that Richard Nixon imagined them to be. So, that is why I think, you know, I start with Daniel Bell, because Daniel Bell sets that standard. We are a consensus society, the end of the ideology, but it is, it is wrong.
SM: 1:16:03
Yeah, it is interesting when, when I did speak with him one, one name that came up that really drew his attention was Mark Rutte. [laughs]
KB: 1:16:14
Hm, interesting.
SM: 1:16:14
He had a lot, he had a lot of thoughts to say on Mark Rutte so, at Columbia University, so.
KB: 1:16:21
Yeah.
SM: 1:16:24
When you look at the Boomer Generation what, just your general thoughts on the Boomer Generation? Yeah, I-I asked this question early on in my interviews about the, you know, when I was young, even on this campus at Binghamton, there was this feeling, this aura of we were living in different times, and it was great to be young and, and all this other stuff, and we were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. And it was, it was a youthful feeling. But, you know, we know the history now. Now, the boomers are now the oldest generation, per se.
KB: 1:17:00
Yeah.
SM: 1:17:01
And we are all reflecting on what really has been done. And in knowing that, in terms of those who participate, you talked about numbers, those who participated in any kind of an activity or protests or, you know, society's issues, it might have been 7 or 8 percent of that 74 or 76 million. Just your overall thoughts on the boomer generation, we are the most, the most unique generation in American history?
KB: 1:17:30
No. [laughter]
SM: 1:17:30
Okay.
KB: 1:17:33
Really, no, that was not. That was a bit quick. Let me expand on that a little bit. I do think that what you said a minute ago, I think you said a couple of really important things a minute ago. Yes, there was a uniqueness to the Boomer Generation in that, that was a generation that grew up, that turned out to be this relative, this very brief period of stability and security for millions and millions of ordinary people. So, I think of, they grew up in the world fundamentally different than the one their parents grew up in, because they have that sense of security that their parents, in particular, my mother never had. That is important. And, when Tom Reid supports you on statement, that is one of the first things he says, right? We are the generation raised in comfort. So, I do think that makes it an unusual generation, an unusually lucky generation. I also think that you are absolutely spot on, to point out that the activist portion of that generation was never as big as people have come to think it was, and as boomers themselves have a tendency to think it was. And it is an understandable thing, I do not mean to be critical about it. But, memory has a way of turning everybody brave. There were massive numbers of young people who never joined the protest movement, who went to their classes, who got the degrees, if they were lucky to go, enough to go to college, which over half of them did not, who got the opportunity, you got married, you had children, who lived completely ordinary lives. I do not mean that as a criticism. I have great admiration for ordinary lives. But, it is not the story that people tend to tell themselves. I have given a lot of talks over the years on civil rights activism, and particularly, I cannot tell you how many white people in particular have told me they marched with Dr. King. Now I am sure some of them did-
SM: 1:19:48
Right.
KB: 1:19:48
-but a lot of them is that many white people were following Dr. King, every time he walked out the door that would have been a crowd of white people around. It is just the way that we tend to think of the past. We tend to, you know, there is clear studies of this. We tend to think of ourselves as always being on the right side of history. That is [inaudible]. So one of the things and we have talked a bit about ordinary people, I would have loved a bit more to tell you the truth on the Cahills, and they were the Cahills's children and their reasons that I did not follow that. I had more information that the Cahill family asked me not to use, and I honored that. It is about order, the boom, the Boomer Generation did have the great fortune of living in that particular moment of stability and security. But, they also lived ordinary lives, many-many of them. And yes, the minority were central to those changes, there was also a very strong conservative sentiment inside Boomer generation, a lot in the 1960s. A majority of college students, at least in (19)65, (19)66, (19)67, fully supported the Vietnam War. You know that is, that sentiment changed over time. But, support to the Vietnam War actually increased with educational level, except for those with graduate degrees. So, the more college education you had, the more education you had, high school to college, college to graduate school, or professional school, the more likely you were to support the Vietnam War. That is not surprising, given the dynamics of part one and looking at people understood, they were stuck with the war, in the way that people with higher education were not. That is one of the dynamics of the war.
SM: 1:21:47
Yeah, and also, when you are teaching the (19)60s, another thing, if you are talking about the criticism, of what I talked about earlier, the conservatives, also were involved in the anti-war movement, and there was a-
KB: 1:22:05
Yeah.
SM: 1:22:06
-young America, I think it is Young Americans for Freedom or whatever. Definitely, Edwards has written about this, and that he is very concerned that if, you know, he teaches a course, I think at a Catholic school in Washington, D.C., and he teaches on the Vietnam War, and he makes sure that the conservative point of view is also part of the (19)60s-
KB: 1:22:26
Yep.
SM: 1:22:26
-because we you know, William Buckley, he is an important figure, I mean, his T.V. show with all the people he brought on. I mean, he is a very important figure because he brought everybody on that he opposed-
KB: 1:22:38
Yep.
SM: 1:22:38
-as well as people that he supported. And, and he had young people in the audience that were conservative and liberal. But I think talking a course on the (19)60s has to have the also the conservative point of view and the, you know, the student organizations that were against the war.
KB: 1:22:54
Yeah, I think, I tried to get across it in the book is I think there were three anti-war movements. So it was a radical anti-war movement, one that we tend to think of as the anti-war movement.
SM: 1:23:07
Yep.
KB: 1:23:08
There was a liberal one that operated on different premises, you know, that did not see the war as a sign of the evil of American imperialism, that thought is a mistaken application of Cold War policies, the wrong place to be fighting on the right principle, and then there is a conservative anti-war movement. And that movement, wanted actually the escalation of the war, because they wanted, they believe U.S. was not using its power to its full effect. They wanted the 20 percent of American people in the 1960s, in (19)67, wanted the U.S. to use nuclear weapons on North Vietnam. And that movement and it had mass marches, there was a mass pro-war- -march in New York City in the spring of (19)67. There were massive marches, pre-war marches, or at least anti, anti-war marches in response to the march on the Pentagon in 19- [crosstalk] I think they call it the Hard Hat March. Was that the Hard Hat March or something like that?
SM: 1:23:55
Right.
KB: 1:24:08
And the hard hats in (19)70, which is tied with Cambodia invasion.
SM: 1:24:16
Yeah, yep.
KB: 1:24:17
That is a huge movement. And it just does, and people do not even know it is there. It plays in the polls enormously. You know, and they hate the war because what they hate it the way that the United States is pursuing the war. They do not like the way that it is a war of containment, instead of-
SM: 1:24:36
Right.
KB: 1:24:36
of a war of victory, and that it is killing American [inaudible].
SM: 1:24:41
I got four more questions.
KB: 1:24:43
All right.
SM: 1:24:44
The Vietnam Memorial opened in 1992, and its purpose was to, to heal the veterans, and their families. Those who served in the war and the families of those who lost loved ones in the war. It's done a pretty good job. I have witnessed that in person over the years. But the bottom line is this: Jan Scruggs wrote a book around the time the wall was, no 10 years after the wall was, sort of, called to heal a nation. Do you feel that Vietnam Memorial that is the second most visited memorial in Washington has healed our nation from this war?
KB: 1:25:20
I think it helped America. A memorial can heal, can do all of that work. But I think it has helped. Like you I have been, like millions of Americans, I am not claiming anything exceptional. I have been to the wall, where you see veterans, touching the wall, putting personal tributes at the wall, and you realize what a powerful, you know, there was an awful lot, is it? Well, no, not a lot of controversy about the form that the memorial took. But I think it was, turned out to be a beautiful expression for veterans and their families. So, you know, I am a great admirer. As I think a lot of veterans are the beauty of that memorial.
SM: 1:26:13
And also the Women's Memorial that opened in 1993. You know, the women had to fight for representation as well.
KB: 1:26:21
Yeah.
SM: 1:26:22
So, it is like everything connected to the (19)60s, there is battles [laughter] in everything and, and there has been some and they had, the three-man statue was a battle. I mean the, so in the course now there is thinking of a group that wants to do, pay honor to the dogs who served in Vietnam. Well, they put a stop to that. But-
KB: 1:26:44
Yeah, that is probably a step too far, and I am a great dog lover. Oh, Rustin is fundamental. Because what Rustin does is, well, first of all, because he is a key component of one other strand of the civil rights movement, which is the strength of the civil rights movement that connects activism, racial activism, with radical pacifism, and with socialist politics. So, he is a bridge between various pieces of the movement between a piece of the movement that is tied to a Philip Randolph unionization, socialism, and to the radical pacifist tradition, which is a tiny little tradition in the United States. And it is through valve two connections, actually, that he becomes the, one of the architects of King's rise to prominence. You know, it is Rustin, who makes King, the national figure that he becomes after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, you can just see it in the newspapers, it is Rust, as he is taking this local, dramatic local story and turning it into a national story because he was a brilliant, brilliant political organizer. And it is Rustin, who then serves as the kind of organizational anchor along with Ella Baker, who is a friend and colleague of his-
SM: 1:26:47
Yeah, one of the, I am very pleased that you talked a lot about Byard Rustin in your book. There is a long time that he was kind of a forgotten man, he was bad. Some people thought he was a bad man, because he was a communist. He was gay, I mean all this other stuff. And he is from Westchester, which is where I live. And, and so and we had a national tribute to him when I was working at Westchester University. But you, you did a great job of putting him in his role, not only with the march on Washington, but in other areas. Could you talk to us a little bit about why Byard Rustin is important when you talk about the (19)60s?
KB: 1:28:47
-in New York City political circles, who then give the substance to the organizing work that the civil rights movement, King's brand, strand of the Civil Rights Movement does. King is a, not a great organizer, but he had really great organizers behind him, and Rustin as a theorist of the movement, and as an organizer of the movement really gives that southern movement much of its shape. Excellent. Yeah, he is, they named the high school after him in Westchester but the battle, the name that, was a battle.
SM: 1:28:47
Right.
KB: 1:29:23
I can imagine what do you think was the bigger part of the battle, his radicalism or the fact that he was gay.
SM: 1:29:28
I think it was, that he was, some people, I think it was because he was gay, and also because he was a communist. And, and but finally I-I went to some of the meetings. I actually stood up once and said some things, but I just sat there. I was in amazement that, but they finally did it and, and, and now Brother Outsiders are being shown all over the country, you know, the film.
KB: 1:29:54
Yeah.
SM: 1:29:54
And Walter Nago, who I am close friend of, it was his partner and Walter goes, to film and shown. And so he is finally getting the recognition he deserved 40 years ago, so-
KB: 1:30:06
Yep, exactly.
SM: 1:30:08
Now, two last questions up. Was there one person in the (19)60s that you personally liked above everybody else? And is there one that you dislike?
KB: 1:30:20
Oh, that I dislike? [laughs] I think I mean, I know this is a cliché answer. But, it is worth acknowledging, I will just acknowledge that I have just such enormous admiration for Martin Luther King. And I think, and I think it is because he was a flawed human being who, but who also upheld these kind of extraordinary principles. And so, you know, I know that is a cliché answer, but I think it is an honest one. Someone who I really, really dislike, hm, and there is a lot of candidates for sure.
SM: 1:31:11
[laughs]
KB: 1:31:14
Who would I put at the top of that list? Oh, that is a tough question. I do not know, I would have to think about that one.
SM: 1:31:23
All right. Well, if had come up with it let me know. [laughter]
KB: 1:31:26
You have got a deal.
SM: 1:31:27
One thing, when we started the interview, I think, we did not, something cut off at the very beginning, which was when you were talking about, could you just redo again, your growing up years, I got your college experience-
KB: 1:31:39
Oh, sure.
SM: 1:31:40
-just your-your growing up years, and that, that early years, those early years?
KB: 1:31:44
Sure, so as I mentioned before, I was born in Detroit, Michigan, in October of 1960. To be exact, I was born on the same day as the second Nixon Kennedy debate. And I grew up in Detroit, in an all-white neighborhood in Detroit that was kind of lower middle class, upper working-class neighborhood. I went to the, my neighborhood's parochial schools for grade school and high school. I did not mention that. But I will add that when I was in my teenage years, the neighborhood that I thought of so much as, as my home, underwent the dramatic racial change of white flight. And living through that I think, also had a really big, left a really big mark and my sense of the racial, the cost of American race, one part of the enormous cost of American racism.
SM: 1:32:44
All right, and my very last question is this. And I have been doing this now for my last 15 interviews.
KB: 1:32:49
[chuckles]
SM: 1:32:50
And what is a message you would like to relate to people who listen to this lecture, who will be hearing it 50 years from now, for generations yet unborn, long after we were gone? What would you like to say to them?
KB: 1:33:07
I think what makes the 1960s such an important and compelling period in American history, is that maybe a minority of, undoubtedly a minority of Americans believed enough in the promise of this nation, to demand that it be, that promise be fulfilled. And, they did not manage to do that. They did not manage to make it all the way to fulfilling that promise. And in some ways, the dynamics of the 1960s helped in the long run to move America even farther from that promise. But they believed enough in this nation, to take seriously the promise that it made in its founding documents, and to believe that they could through their own acts of courage, and sometimes enormous sacrifice, make the nation, move the nation closer to that promise. And that is an enormously important thing.
SM: 1:34:23
Very good, Dr. Boyle. I want to thank Dr. KB: for being interviewed today about his book, "The Shattering: America in the 1960s." It is a winning book. And I think I mentioned to you, Dr., Dr. Boyle that Dr. Nieman who was the Vice President for Academic Affairs and Provost who is going back to the history department in a year, he is writing a book right now. So he will be away for a year but, he is pushing this book to be one of the books that is going to be used for the (19)60s course.
KB: 1:34:59
Oh, cool, as he should.
SM: 1:35:00
I am not sure if I have not seen Dr. Nieman since he announced he was leaving as Provost because he is working on his own book now but you know, I do not know if you know Dr. Daniel Nieman he is, race is a very big issue in his career. He is, you can look him up. He is a tremendous scholar. He loves Abraham Lincoln. And he, he was the dean of the school at the time, we started this Center for the Study of the (19)60s. So well I want to thank you again, I am going to turn this off and then give you final instructions. Thanks.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Kevin Boyle