141 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2ef8d6935f9ae516b15b77742cd60f07.mp3 730c062b67bec5e15983278ea9c147c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Evan Cole Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sol Braun Biographical Text Sol Braun is an immigrant who lived in Poland, Soviet Russia, and Germany during his childhood. He came to the United States shortly after the end of World War II. He worked as a shoemaker both overseas and in the United States. Sol is now retired and resides in Tappan, New York. He has four children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 36:18 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-01 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Interviews; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Poland; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Germany; Second World War, 1939-1945; Refugee camps; Labor camps; Migrations; Jews; Ethnic identity; Rockland County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SolBraun.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Polish people; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Refugee camps; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Jews Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Sol Braun Interviewed by: Evan Cole Transcriber: Evan Cole Date of interview: 1 April 2016 at 04:05 pm Interview Setting: Sol's home, in Tappan, New York -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Evan Cole: Hi, I'm Evan Cole and I'm with Sol Braun. It is April 1, 2016, just after 4 PM. We are at Sol's house. Sol is an immigrant from Russia and Poland during the time of the Soviet Union. Sol, start me off by saying when and where you were born. Sol Braun: I was born in Poland in a shtetl, a small town outside of Warsaw called Nowy Dwór (Nowy Dwór Mazowiecki). EC: In what year? SB: I was born in 1927. EC: You lived in Poland for a short time, right? SB: Until the age of twelve. EC: Up until you were twelve. What do you really remember the most about Poland? SB: We all lived in the center of town. My father was a shoemaker and he worked very hard. We had enough to eat; I was never hungry. I had a lot of friends and family, and it was an easy life. Being that I was the first born, my mother really took care of me. EC: How many siblings do you have? SB: I had two sisters in Poland. At first I went to Hebrew school, Tarbut, and I finished in third grade. My mother decided that's not for me, so they sent me to public school, which I went through 4th and 5th grade, and then World War II started. EC: Once World War II started, you went to Russia? SB: After being with the Germans for a few months, we realized this is not going to be an easy life. So, my parents, me, my father's brother, and my two sisters, we all went to the Soviet Union's part of Poland, called Białystok. It was not an easy life because it was a lot of people. There was no room; we slept on the floor of a synagogue until they organized and we were able to go on some kind of farm, which was not bad. Eventually, in 1940, the Soviet Union rounded up all of those people and they sent us to a Gulag in the Soviet Union. EC: You said you slept on the floor of a synagogue; is that where you lived as well? SB: That was only for two weeks or so. EC: Can you describe the living conditions of the Gulag in the Soviet Union? SB: They brought us in there and then there was a nachalny, the head; he had a speech for us. He said, “This is your home now. You're going to live here and you're going to die here.” That was the first speech, and these were people who were the shoemakers, the tailors, or some other kind of job. The job that was available was to cut down trees, lumberjacks. So, they had to learn. The father worked there, and it was a hard life. The food was not enough food; most of the time we were hungry. Many times, when I ate one meal, I did not know when I'm going to have the second meal, or when I'm going to eat again. Some days, I could've gone a day or two before we had food again. We stayed like this for a year and a half. EC: When you were given food, how much was given to your family? SB: If you worked, you would get 1,500 grams of bread. If we didn't work, we'd get only 400 grams. Also, you needed money to buy the bread. Sometimes, father would get sick and couldn't work. They didn't pay him, so we didn't have money to buy it. It was a very hard life, but after a while, we realized that in spite of all the hardship and all the things they were sending us through in gulags, they actually saved our lives. EC: How did it do that? SB: Because, the Germans occupied Poland, Ukraine, and all of Europe. The Jews were sent into concentration camps, or death camps. We were hungry and cold, but our lives weren't threatened. Then, we realized that we're really lucky in a way, because we managed to be hungry and working. After a while, the Russians freed us. They let us go out; we could live wherever we wanted to, like the Russians, but not in big cities. We settled in a small place, not too far from the gulag, in a city called Kotlas, which was maybe two or three hundred miles from the Arctic Circle. Father finally got a job as a shoemaker, his own profession. After that, we were less hungry. That's how it worked out. That was 1941 into '42. EC: When you left the gulag? SB: When we stayed there. EC: So it was only for a year or two? SB: About a year and a half. EC: What were the sleeping conditions like? Did you have a lot of beds for your family? SB: No, when we were in the gulag, we only had one room. My mother and father had the bed. My two sisters and I, we slept on the floor. The room was maybe 8' x 10'. In the morning, we had to chop the wood in the cold and bring it in. It was a hard life, but we were safe. EC: Is there any way you can compare the life in the gulag to when you moved out to towards Arctic Circle? SB: It was entirely different, because Father was a shoemaker for one thing. The Soviet Union at that time was: if you wanted to have something done, if you know someone in the higher ups, then you get something done. Father was the only guy to do the shoes, and he had a leg up. If somebody would want it to be done faster, they would bring potatoes and bread. We had extra food because father worked extra hours, and I actually helped him. I became a shoemaker. It was easier; we weren't really hungry. Then, it was a hard life, but we were safe. EC: With your time in the gulag, if you could name one thing that you remember the most, what would it be? SB: When we arrived in the Kotlas, and Father got the job and they decided to give us a place to live. Instead of Kotlas, which is a part of work, there was the river Sukhona. We were right on the river. They found a place on the other side of the river, and that was a walk for about 45 minutes. Father, at every morning and at night, he'd have to get up and go by the river. They had a boat that you had to row. Everybody rowed wherever you can. It came to the side and we went to the other side. It was organized by the people themselves. So, what I remember the most, the first time the whole family went from Kotlas to cross the river. It was already in November, and the river was almost frozen, so what people had was long sticks and there was lots of ice over it, so you push and the ice goes away to cross over. We crossed over and then had to wait a few days or so until the river froze and then we were able to go back and forth. I remember that going on the river and pushing the ice away to cross it. EC: How many languages do you speak? SB: Well, not now so many, but there was a time, before I came to the United States, I could speak Polish, Russian, German, and Yiddish. Then, when I came to America I learned to speak English. I can speak a little Polish and German, but not very good. English is the main thing. EC: Did you learn Russian before you went to Russia? SB: No, but it's a Slavic language, so it's similar to Polish. It's just a little adjustment. When you're young, you—at the time I was only 13, 14 years old—so at that time you pick it up fast. EC: When you were in Russia, did you experience any unfair treatment in comparison to America? SB: I had an instant that was in 1943. At the time we had left Kotlas. My whole family wound up outside of Gorki, which would be on the Walder River, and I forgot what they call it now. So, we wound up in the town called Bogorodsk. Once we got to that town, we were much, much better off. Father was a shoemaker and I helped him, so we had enough food; we weren't hungry anymore. EC: You weren't discriminated? SB: Oh yeah, I was going to say that. The only thing I remember was something funny. I don't know if I should say that or not. It's a very innocent thing to say, but there was many Russians who heard of Jews but never met one. So, when I worked there, there was young boys my age. Sometimes at lunchtime, we didn't know what to do. So all of a sudden we stop to pee and they say to me, “We want to see yours because we heard yours is different!” I said, “I'm not going to show,” you know, but at least they didn't look if I had horns. But no, I didn't find any—maybe there was, but I didn't feel it. EC: What is your overall opinion of Russia, now? SB: My opinion now? EC: You, now, of the time in Russia that you had. SB: I found that the Russian people up north, where I was, are the nicest people you can find because they have to help each other. Just to give an example, if you have to go from one place to the other and you had to walk. If you get cold and you're hungry, you stop at any little house, and you go in there, they'll give you food; you can stay over. What you do is you help out: you chop some wood or do some other things for that. And there was actually no crime involved. The nicest people are up north; I was very impressed with that. EC: What was the main reason for you to come to America? SB: We had family here, and being I was in Germany, a displaced person, so I wanted to come to America and become a citizen, have a job, and belong to someone. When I was a displaced person, I didn't belong to anyone. EC: How did you get to Germany? SB: In 1946, the war was over, so the Russians actually sent us back to Poland on the same trains as those that took us there. But it didn't wind up in my hometown; we wound up in the part that was Germany before the war was like Woldenberg [Dobiegniew in Poland] and Breslau [Wrocław in Poland]. So, we were in Woldenberg. They put us in that place and we stayed there a while. Then we had some information from my mother's sister in New York that we should try and come to America. The only way to come to America was to go to the American zone. So, illegally, we went over the border to Czechoslovakia and then we wound up in Vienna. Also as a displaced person, we wound up near the outside of Frankfurt in a displaced person camp, or DP. We stayed there until 1949. EC: Can you describe what it was like traveling illegally to get to the safe zone? How long did it take? SB: We weren't far from the border. It was all organized. The only thing they told us was, “Don't talk and don't say anything. Throw away all of the documents. Then when you go there, tell them you were Greek.” We went through that and said we couldn't understand anything, and just went through. That was the whole trick; we were told to do that. Once I was in Czechoslovakia, we went in the train and wound up in Vienna. Once we were in Vienna, we actually were not in the Soviet Union anymore; we were free. EC: Do you still keep any traditions in America that you had while you were overseas? SB: Not really, I mean what is there? If you were a religious person, maybe you do the same thing. With me, I adjust. Now I'm an American; I do what Americans do. The American Dream for me is work. EC: What job did you get when you came to America? SB: Well, I tried to get a job and the government told me I make it. EC: When you were over in the Soviet Union, what was your opinion of America when you there? SB: At that time, in my wildest dreams, I couldn't imagine that I'm going to be in America right now talking to you. I could never imagine that, so it was the usual thing that America's a rich country, gold in the streets, and all kind of things. EC: Did that change when you came over here? SB: When we came here, we found everything was good. We knew the golden street is not true, but it took me maybe less than a year for me to feel I'm American—took me a while. Once I felt that, it was great. EC: Do you miss anywhere you stayed in Europe? SB: No. EC: Who were your role models growing up? SB: My father. EC: How did he influence you? SB: His honesty, his hard work; he was likable by older people, and it seems like I got his trait, being the same. Plus, I used to read a lot of books in all the languages that I knew. I remember reading—in Germany, the last book I read was, in German, The Three Musketeers. In Russia the last book was—I can't read it now. The Polish books, I used to read a lot. EC: Your father read a lot? SB: No. Father, he just knew how to read just to get by, because I don't think he went to school. He just learned a little bit. EC: What was the most satisfying moment that you've had in your life? SB: There are so many. EC: List however many you want. SB: I remember it was when we arrived on the ship to America in New York. We always knew the Statue of Liberty, and we arrived very early. It was still dark. I remember going on the ship, before they let us out, I look to the right, and I saw the Statue of Liberty shining with light. That stands out in my mind. EC: Which cultures do you identify with now? SB: I'm American. EC: How important is religion to you? SB: With religion, I evolved. When I grew up in Poland in the shtetl, when we went to shul, I was told that there is God and you have to be afraid of him and whatever it says in the Bible, I believed. Actually there was an instant when I must have been 5, maybe 6 years old on Yom Kippur. As I stayed in the synagogue with my parents—my mother was upstairs and separated from Father—so I decided I'll go and see my uncle who wasn't far away and I'll visit them because it's a whole day. I walked into the house and saw him; he was eating and smoking a cigarette, and I couldn't understand why he didn't die on the spot because he was doing this on Yom Kippur. This is one thing, but since then I evolved, and now I believe in God my own way. EC: So spiritual in your own way and not tied to one thing? SB: I believe in God, but not in organized religion, but traditionally I'm still Jewish, like I go to synagogue and pray—I do it only because of tradition. EC: What would you consider to be the most important inventions that happened during your life? SB: When I was younger or lately? EC: Any time. SB: I was impressed when I came to America, they had television. After a while I was able to buy a car, so that impressed me. I got married, had children, so just now the cell phone. This is such a fantastic thing, so you can go on and on. When I was a child, we didn't even have electricity; we didn't have a radio. The trucks and cars, the tires were solid rubber; we're going back a long way. So, this age now, going online and cell phones are really something to me. EC: When you were in Russia, there weren't many of these inventions? SB: In Russia, you didn't own—if you owned a radio, it was only a speaker with one station. The only thing you needed was a speaker to hook up, and that's all. They played music, were talking about the news and everything. One station, so we worked and worked, there was a speaker and the radio was on. You could listen—I could hear, during the war, what was going on with the Americans. EC: Who was putting out these broadcasts? SB: The government. It was one station for the whole Soviet Union. EC: Going back a bit, what do you think of today's Russia? SB: Actually, in some ways, I'm agreeing with Putin because in spite of everything that is going in Russia with the financial and other things, the Russians are with him about 80%, whatever he's doing. I understand that because for some reason, when I was there, Crimea was Russian, and all of the sudden, when the Soviet Union fell apart, they started giving away. Everything was breaking up, and all of the sudden, Crimea was given up to Ukraine. I had the resentment myself; I was like, “Why did they do this?” in my mind. So I can imagine, living in Russia, how they felt. So now that Putin took the Crimea away, which I agree that he should be. Also, the investor in nations like NATO, they’re pushing themselves with NATO to Poland and they're circling Russia, and especially in Ukraine, which is right in the heart of Russia. I knew this is wrong because they don't like that. So, I think the western countries overdid this. What they should do is go to Ukraine and say, “Look, you are the country. You stay wherever you want to be but you're going to have to be NATO.” It's threatened Ukraine, so the east and west of Ukraine should make peace. EC: You're obviously paying attention to Russian news. Do you pay attention to any of the news in Poland or Germany? SB: A little bit, but for some reason, being I grew up in some ways in Russia, I can understand what's going on. If I were Russian, I would be against Ukraine being invaded, and I feel the same way right now. EC: You would say that your time in Russia was rare because you had a positive outlook on it, right? SB: Yeah, because in the end of 1943, we lived in the outside of Gorki, which is Central Russia actually, and we had, relatively speaking, a good life for Russians, so my father worked, and I helped him. We had food, and I had friends, so it was okay. EC: You said that the northern Russians were really nice. SB: The people were different there. They were entirely different. EC: How so? SB: I found that in the big cities, the population is more aggressive. I don't know exactly how to say that, but in the north, they tried to help each other in a friendly way. You're not going to find this outside of Moscow or all those places. EC: What do you think made it different? SB: It's a different life. It's amazing; the people that I met there, they actually were the children of the parents that Stalin—when he came to power, he took all those rich farmers and sent them there—so in the beginning, they were the same as we were, in the gulags. They were that type of people. I don't know how to explain it, but it's entirely different. It could've changed by now. EC: What do you remember the most about your sisters? SB: My two sisters that were born in Poland, they were doing okay. One was going to school; the other one didn't. But then, in 1943, another sister of mine was born, and we all lived; everything is good. Did I help? EC: You did. Thank you so much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sol Braun Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Braun, Sol ; Cole, Evan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sol Braun is an immigrant who lived in Poland, Soviet Russia, and Germany during his childhood. He came to the United States shortly after the end of World War II. He worked as a shoemaker both overseas and in the United States. Sol is now retired and resides in Tappan, New York. He has four children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sol Braun.mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 36:18 Subject The topic of the resource Interviews; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Poland; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Germany; Second World War, 1939-1945; Refugee camps; Labor camps; Migrations; Jews; Ethnic identity; Rockland County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/26752b39606ee1ffd92c2d8333d03c9e.m4a 09154d91ec02ab8d659dea8b2e8aa8d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Sanyshyn Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kevin DeLuca and Kayla Jermansky Date of Interview 6 April 2016 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:19 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Biographical Text David Sanyshyn is a retired engineer and is a third generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in the Binghamton area. He is a Vietnam War veteran, having served two terms in the Navy, and is active in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He met his wife, a second generation Ukrainian, in the United States. They have 3 children together and 4 grandchildren, and reside in Binghamton. Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Sanyshyn, David. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Church; Ukrainian--music; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DavidSanyshyn.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Ukrainians; Immigrants; Catholics, Ukrainian; Veterans; Ukrainian diaspora; Interviews; Binghamton (N.Y.); Ethnicity ; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: David Sanyshyn Interviewed by: Kevin DeLuca and Kayla Jermansky Transcriber: Kevin DeLuca and Kayla Jermansky Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Kevin DeLuca: Hello, my name is Kevin DeLuca, and this is Kayla Jermansky, and we are here today at Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church on April 6th to interview David Sanyshyn. David Sanyshyn is a 3rd generation Ukrainian immigrant. He has agreed to speak to us about his personal experiences growing up as a Ukrainian, and we are interviewing him in order to learn more his personal experiences and cultural identity. We will also be discussing his childhood, what he considers to be his national identity, what influenced his grandparents to come to America, as well as any other insight he chooses to share with us. Kayla Jermansky: So, you said you were born here in Binghamton. Specifically, you were born in this community? David Sanyshyn: Yes, I grew up two houses down from the church. KD: Is everyone in this community a Ukrainian immigrant? DS: When I was born it wasn't unusual to hear Polish, Slovak, Russian or Ukrainian anywhere in the community. There was a lot of households that actually spoke all of them. KJ: Do you still hear those languages today? DS: Not really, most of the immigration has moved out along with the jobs. KJ: Is there a reason you chose to stay instead of leaving? DS: I like the area and it's just a beautiful place to live. KD: What do you like most about it? DS: The scenery and the change of seasons. Also, the mountains. My grandparents came from a place very similar to this in geography. KD: Do you know why your grandparents came here? DS: Jobs. My mother's side came to work in Syracuse and actually went back to Ukraine which was uncommon at the time. Then he came here with the intent of working. This was around 1910 and she saw that changes in the political atmosphere was getting pretty bad. So, she wrote him a letter and said if you can work there and make enough money to live then maybe there is a better place to live. Then he sent her money to have her transported here. My other grandparents came during WW1 and settled in New Jersey. KJ: For more background info, can you tell us when you were born? DS: 1950. KD: What do you do for a living? DS: Right now, I'm a retired software engineer. KJ: What is your educational background? DS: I have a 2-year degree that I got after I got out of the service. KJ: How old were you when you joined the Navy? DS: 18. KD: What influenced you to serve in the Navy? DS: The draft. The war was going on; if I didn't join the Navy I would've been drafted in the Army. KD: Can you tell us a little more about your experience in the Navy? DS: I made 2 tours in Vietnam and learned electronics. I saw a lot of different sights, a lot of different places: Guam, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Japan. KJ: So, you are very well traveled. DS: Yes, well they say join the Navy, see the world. It was interesting to see all of the different cultures. KJ: How long did you serve? DS: 4 years. KD: Do you have any children? DS: Yes. KD: How many? DS: 3 children and 4 grandchildren. KJ: Did you meet your wife here? DS: No, she's from Utica. KD: Is she also Ukrainian? DS: Yes, she's also Ukrainian. She is 2nd generation, her parents came after WW2. KD: When did you start coming to this church? DS: Right from birth. I was baptized here. Actually, before this church was here, my grandmother used to have a little Chapel in her house and a Brazilian priest used to come around once in a while and have masses. KJ: How religious would you say you are? DS: Pretty religious. KD: Would you say this church helped you acclimate to Binghamton? DS: Yes, because we always had a very close tie to the Church and being Ukrainian we always had a close tie to the traditions also. We still carry out all of the traditions. I still host Christmas Eve at our house and we've had as many as 52 at a sit-down dinner for Christmas Eve. KD: How many brothers and sisters do you have? DS: I have 5 sisters and 2 brothers. KJ: How was that growing up with so many kids around? DS: There was always a lot of people around, so it was always good. Plus, both of my parents came from big families. There were 9 or 10 kids in both of my grandparents' houses so there were always a lot of festivities, a lot of music and a lot of get together. KD: Do you think having a big family is a Ukrainian tradition? DS: It was a tradition because back then you wanted more hands to work the fields. At the turn of the century that was how you lived; as soon as spring hit you were working from sun up until sundown. KD: What kinds of games did you play as a child? DS: You know, just the regular kickball or baseball or basketball. Some type of ball. KJ: Are there any specific Ukrainian games that your parents brought over? DS: Not really, my parents weren't big game players. There was always a lot of work to do with the farm. KJ: What was it like growing up with your parents, were they strict? DS: I wouldn't say they were strict. They helped instill important values. They always practiced what they preached. KD: How do you think your experience would be different if you grew up in Ukraine instead of here? DS: It definitely would have been more of an agricultural society. There would also be a lot of different cultures. KJ: We have learned that Ukraine is known as a "melting pot". DS: Yes, my mother's side of the family, I believe, are actually Ukrainians living in Poland. It actually used to be part of Ukraine at one point. KD: Did your grandparents always identify as Ukrainian? DS: Yes. KD: What would you identify yourself as now? DS: Ukrainian American. KJ: Have you ever visited Ukraine? DS: No. KD: Did you ever plan to? DS: I think it would be interesting just to see it. Of course, now you can just look on the internet. KD: Is there a reason that you didn't? DS: Well, for one thing, the border was closed for a long time. It wasn't until 1992 that they opened it up. We did have some visitors, though. My wife's cousin came from Ukraine. KJ: Was it difficult for your grandparents to find work here? DS: No, I don't think so. My mother's father worked here on the railroad and after he moved here the second time he was working in EJ. I don't know if you've ever heard the term "which way EJ". Both: No. DS: That was because Endicott Johnson employed people and he needed people to work in the shoe factory. So, that was the saying for immigrants once they got off the boat, they'd say "which way EJ". The idea was they were going to come here to work in this area; that's how a lot of people got settled here. KJ: How would you say your grandparents' experience was first coming here? DS: It was difficult but that's why they hung in different communities. My grandfather actually lived up on a hill here and he used to grow vegetables. They bought some farms up here and started farming, which is what they did best. They raised their kids and they all went off and did things. KD: Do you have any remaining family members still in Ukraine? DS: I'm not sure. From what I understand my grandfather was from a family of 16 and we haven't kept up with all of them. KD: Has your family brought over any Ukrainian traditions that you still practice today? DS: Oh yeah. Christmas Eve supper, a 12-course meal, and we put hay on the table. There's always a dish with barley or wheat and honey and nuts or raisins. Then, we had Barsch which is a type of fish. We had sauerkraut and some lima beans. And there are a couple of other smaller dishes. KJ: Are there any other smaller traditions that you guys have? DS: Well on Easter in Ukraine they would perform these dances and songs and the kids would all join in. They still do it around here but not as much, it's not as practical as it used to be. They also used to have water fights the day after Easter. The girls would go after the guys and the guys would go after the girls. KJ: Have your parents passed down any traditions to you that you still do? DS: We still do Christmas Eve dinner and on Easter we will have a big breakfast. There's eggs, ham, pasta, potato salad and stuff like that. KD: Are there any daily traditions or just ways of living that could be different from someone that isn't Ukrainian? DS: Well my kids have always told me that we were different because for one thing I have a large piece of land- I have 40 acres and I built my own house. Then they got to college and were surprised that nobody builds their own houses anymore. My father worked carpentry for quite a while and there are a lot of things that he showed me. As a matter of fact, when I got out of the service that is what I wanted to do. You know, build a house and sell it, build a house and sell it. I saved money up when I was in the service and then when I got out of the service my parents had built a house next to the one we have up here. My father came to me and said, "You see that house, you can't build it and sell it for enough to make money on it." So, I said, well I know electronics, so I got hired in GE and worked there for about a year then I worked for IBM for a while. They had this last layoff in 2009 and that's when I retired. KJ: So, you would say you had a good career path? DS: Yeah, it's interesting because now my sons are growing up now and working, and with all of the costs and student loans it's hard making ends meet. I don't mean to scare you but that's what a lot of people are experiencing. KD: Where did your children go to school? DS: Whitney Point. KD: Is that in the community? DS: Whitney Point is up I-81 about 20 miles. KJ: So, they stayed local. Did they ever consider leaving? DS: My son is still here, and my 2 daughters are back in Raleigh. Both of them are teachers down there. My older daughter was actually working at IBM when they started making the layoffs. So, then she went down there with my younger daughter. KJ: So that's Raleigh, North Carolina, right? DS: Raleigh, yes. KD: Have you ever thought about leaving Binghamton? DS: No, when I got out of the service I bought my aunt's share of my grandparents' farm and I got 33 acres out of that. Then my parents had more that they split up between me and my brothers and sisters. KD: Did all of your siblings stay in Binghamton too? DS: I have 2 sisters and 1 brother that stayed in the area. I have a brother in Ryder, New York and a sister in Queens. Then I have a sister in Cary, North Carolina, and I have another sister in Austin, Texas. My brother lives next door to me and my sister lives around the corner. KJ: Very close family. DS: Yes, we all experienced everything together. Even when we are apart we still remember our roots. KJ: Do you have any particular memories from when you were a kid? DS: Just the area. We used to go sledding around the roadside here, it's called Old Dale Hill Road. We would start up here at the Church and sled down the road. This area is loaded with fruit trees: plums, cherries, apples, peaches. Like I said my grandfather had tons of fruit, strawberries too. He would always get them out earlier than everyone else, like 2 weeks, and he'd always make out well on the strawberries with people, being the first one of the season. KJ: That sounds like an interesting childhood. DS: Yeah, I was a country boy because this is the outskirts here. This was all farm area around here still. I was an early riser, gone early morning, my mother would yell at me "Where'd you go?" KD: Do you think if your parents had settled in a bigger city your childhood would have been different? DS: Yes. We've had several different relatives that grew up in big cities and it seems like most of the kids got messed up. Maybe a couple of them were okay but most of them really had problems. KD: What do you think the biggest difference is living in the city? DS: It's hard to be as cultural in the city. You seem to have a lot less, I mean you have a small community here, where you knew the people and your parents knew who you were playing with and stuff like this, and in the city, you don't know where you're going. KJ: That is true, yeah. I think you could consider us both city kids, right Kevin? Do you consider yourself a city kid? KD: Yeah. KJ: Yeah, we grew up in the city. DS: Where did you grow up? KJ: I grew up in Brooklyn. D. Brooklyn, okay. I had relatives in the Bronx. KJ: Yeah, it's a different atmosphere. D. Yeah, we visited down there, somewhere in Jersey City, and the others are in the Bronx. KJ: It's a very different change coming to Binghamton from the city, I'll tell you that. DS: Yeah from Whitney Point, where you're driving a tractor to work. KJ: So, you said that there are/were multiple ethnic groups within the community, right? How would you say that affected your life growing up, or your perspective? D. Well, we were always aware of who we are, of who we were and who they were. And it was something that was respected too, okay you're this, you're that, and people identified with what they were. Today, everybody wants to mold it to a mold; you're not this, you're not that, you're not anything. KD: So, does that help you stay connected to your culture? DS: Yeah, and also a lot of the same interests. Music was a common interest, and we had close ties to music. My grandfather actually when he came to this country was a musician and all my--he played the cimbalom and the sopilka. The cimbalom, I don't know if you've ever seen it, it's like a trapezoid instrument, it's played with two sticks. And the sopilka is a flute, so he used to play the flute, and all my mother's brothers and some sisters actually played instruments, so that's why you could say there was a lot of music around. KJ: Are you a musician? DS: I played the accordion. I used to play in an ethnic band, a Ukrainian band from Syracuse. KJ: Do you still play it? DS: When I can. When my arthritis doesn't hurt. My brother plays too, and my sister played piano, and my mom, actually, two of my sisters, played piano. KJ: That's nice. So, music had a very big impact in your life then? DS: Oh yeah. KJ: Was that something that your parents brought over or was that just an interest of yours? DS: I think it was an interest because of how I was exposed to it, because they played, and I mean, my uncle actually, Geraldine, my uncle, he would, he played the piano and the accordion. He could play the piano at the concert level, I mean he could do show panel, you know what I'm saying? He used to just show her off because he was an appliance repair man, and he'd go to somebody and fix their refrigerator and there'd be a piano there and he'd sit down, and it'd be a show. [Imitates show music] And his family was a big influence, he influenced, that's where I got the accordion interest from, and he also turned out to be our choir director in Church. And now his son is the choir director, he died a couple of years ago. KD: How would you say your children's experiences have differed from your own here? DS: The children's experiences? Well they grew up in a different time, there wasn't that much. I mean they were tied here locally at the Church, but not as you know, because you know when this was local, all the kids you went to school with were your neighbors here. And now as we moved out, now you're in a country area. My son was the first group to ride the bus on our road, because it was originally just a field access road, I think there was barely enough room to get the horse and wagon through. And then they finally widened it when they opened the park up there, because the Binghamton Greenwood Park, is right down the road from us. My grandparents' farm went right up to the park, actually my father used to, I used to go there in the wintertime for the milk house. And so, they, they weren't as connected there, they were more just connected in the Church, but they had a different time like I said. They kind of grew up in something different because of the property and the fact that I built my own house, did all my own work. But now they're out on their own. KJ: So, you've seen Binghamton go through some pretty big changes from then, how would you say, what do you think are the biggest changes Binghamton's gone through? DS: Loss of jobs. Loss of jobs and the moving out, you know the children moved out. The people that had left the area, and the industries had left the area all by design. KD: So, if your grandparents were coming to America now, you don't think they would come to Binghamton? DS: No, what would there be for them? KD: Where do you think they would have gone instead? DS: If they were coming now, I don't know what, well for one thing it'd be a different reason why they were coming, right? Okay, things were very, life was very hard there. There was this idea of hey jobs, you could get jobs, you could better yourself, that's why they came. You're coming now, I don't know why they'd come. I mean although there is, there are people that are coming now, but I'm not sure, I don't know that many from Ukraine that are coming. KD: Is there anything about American culture that stands out to you? From all the places you've been when you were in the Navy? DS: Well my answer's quite different between here and like the Philippines. Totally different. Philippines gets a lot of rain, actually I was in some of the same places my father was during World War II. It was on in that there, the people are totting rice paddies, flood's going on. They're standing there with their little Coke, Coca-Cola, on the corner. You know there's this much water up there. KJ: That's really interesting. Is there anything specific that you remember from the War, like in any of the places that you've been to? Any good memories that you have? DS: Oh, they were all good memories. The only thing, I made two Westpac cruises to Vietnam, and the squadron I had, I was assigned to, had just came off of their training cruise. And I wish I could've done both, because it sounded like they had a totally different experience, because we were always going into ports and there was a ship you know, carrier coming in every week, 5000 guys. They had been talking to some of the guys that had come off the Mediterranean Cruise. They went on a cruise that no American ship had been on in like 5 or 10 years. And he says you go in there and the people would invite you in, they'd invite you right in their house. Certainly, a suburb. You'd drink, it was just totally different. Barcelona, Mediterranean, area there. It was quite different. KD: That's a really interesting experience. Most people, I would think, don't have as positive of an experience coming from the War. DS: I was on ship, I worked in the radio pool and I was actually in the Navy for two hours. That was the only time I actually spent on the thing, but we had planes coming up shot up, stuff like that. So there was actually a fire on our carrier one time, plane came in and the main mount broke, so when it landed and the main mount broke it tilted up, and when it tilted up it came loose from the cable that catches it, cause when it lands it catches the cable, and when it did that it reared off and crashed against a bunch of planes on the bow and started a fire. But, they had the fire out in 20 seconds. They had this guy in his vest suit, and he has this nozzle with PKB powder, wet water they call it, and they just go in there and just gut the fire out and push the plane through the other side. KJ: That's amazing. Was anyone hurt? DS: They lost 5 people, 1 was the pioneer on the plane that crashed. He had ejected, but when he ejected he was at an angle, so instead of going up and going down, he fell off that way. KJ: That's terrible. Are you still close to any of the men that you worked with during the War? Do you speak to any of them? DS: No, the only one I ever met, and this was years later, was actually in Owego. I looked over and there was my Chief that was my Chief on ship. I had a bench across from his office, and I looked over and he remembered me. Chief Chancy. He was preparing a training manual for the helicopters that they build here. That was about the only one I've ever met. KD: So, you weren't able to retain your ties with them? DS: No, at that time, I mean, I am buddies, but we weren't that close to where we corresponded or anything. Course there wasn't e-mail or anything like this, you know, so you don't know where in a couple of years, you know they're someplace. KD: So, you must have all came from different areas then? DS: Yeah. George was from, George Brown was from Texas, another guy from Nebraska, and there was a guy from New York here, Utica area. KJ: How do you think that changed your experience, meeting people from different areas? DS: It was, it gave me a great deal of, what's the word I want to use, confidence. That I could be myself, be with all these other people, and still be myself and my identity. You knew this guy and what he did, and they knew you and what you did and where you were from, and nobody says well I can never associate with you because you're from here, or because you're that. So, in that sense it gave me a deep set of confidence, and also learning because I was in Old Giants program, the aviation. That was a tough one. Because I had the, where I went to school in Memphis, after I got out of boot camp, they had the top 20, they would give you a test, the top 25 guys would go on this accelerated course. Well there was me and another guy were the only 2 guys that only had a high school education. There was guys in there that had Masters in physics or a Masters in Math. One guy had a Masters in sociology. So, me and this other guy, we were, they lowered the score to get us in the same class. That was tough. KJ: What would you say is one of your biggest life accomplishments? DS: Biggest life accomplishments? Probably building my house. Making it through. KJ: I would say that's a pretty big accomplishment. ` DS: And it continues on today now that I've retired, and I got a big orchard with over a 100 blueberry plants, 50 strawberries, not strawberry, blackberry and raspberry plants. Make my own wine, make my own sauerkraut. KJ: That's amazing. Did anybody teach you how to do that, or you learned on your own? DS: I looked online. I still can make some wine because I got all these blueberries, so I looked it up and okay, you know, they tell you to prepare it. Put these tablets in and you know here's the yeast, you got to get some yeast, you put the yeast in. Well I put the yeast in and it bubbled a few times and stopped. So, I said, oh, so I went online again, and it said 10 reasons why fermentation stops, and well, one thing was my temperature where I had the wine was too low. It's got to be between 70 and 75 so I kind of made this incubator so to speak, I had one of my electric thermostats, because I put electric heat around the house, I put it in there and plugged it all in. Set this for 75 and that blew up, then I also found out that the blueberries, or wild berries, everything about making wine is geared towards grapes. Grapes have natural enzymes and stuff, so I found out that you had to add these enzymes and also there isn't that much sugar, because you can't use just all berries, because you would get too much undesirables, so you diluted it. I think it was 5 gallons of berries that mashed down to about 2 gallons and I did the rest of it with water. So, you have to add these nutrients back in to get it to fermented. Once I did that and tried it again it took off and made a good batch of wine. So, every year for Christmas I have that wine. KJ: Do you sell it ever? DS: No, you can't sell it. KJ: Oh wait, do you need the license? DS: You'd need a license. In fact, in different years we have berries. I'm getting my own berries and so does my cousin, he has other plants too and the guy that lives across the street had 165 plants. But nothing had been done to them in 35 years, so they weren't able to grow. I mean his brother was 6 feet 6 and he couldn't reach them. He had to get in there and you couldn't walk through them. We actually, my cousin and I, went over there after season and we went in and trimmed them, where you couldn't even walk between the rows. We had them, so you could drive a tractor through. So that's, that I would inherit to my, well no I was going to say from a different point of view, that I attribute to my upbringing, doing don't worry about how to do it, go ahead and do it, you'll figure it out one way, some way or the other. I mean cause not only did I build my house; I did all of my own plumbing, all of my own electric, all the deciding, all that stuff. KJ: That's very strong values to have. DS: Yeah now my son's doing it. He's doing a little bit of stuff, actually I have a saw mill too, I cut my own logs. The addition I put on my house was all done in pine and I actually made the flooring for it too, done in ash. KJ: That's amazing. All the houses I see are brick so that's quite a different perspective. DS: Yeah that was an experience too because I had these logs and I had to get them cut up and then I saw an advertisement for a saw, but it was kind of small, so I expanded it after I bought it and then I expanded it again, so I could get a much bigger log out of there. But now I harvested quite a few trees and ran them through the still, not the still, the kiln. I had a solar kiln that I built, somehow, I had maple, ash, cherry, oak, spalted beech. KJ: So, what else do you spend your time doing, other than all of that? DS: I'm still doing some remodeling. I just finished the pantry and I'm getting ready to do hardwood floors on the rest of the house. KD: So, do you see your family living here for a long time in the future? DS: As long as they got something to do, some place to, you know, some place to, that's one of the problems you know as people move out, finding when they come back they have to have a place to stay, otherwise they won't visit. Okay it's like you, if you were back in your hometown and you could stay at your parents' house, you know even after you get married. Go visit them, you'd probably might visit them. KJ: So, what would you say that you value the most in life? DS: Value the most in life? My religion. KD: So, would you say you're proud of identifying as Ukrainian? DS: Yeah. KD: In what ways does that make you most proud? Like what are the specific? DS: Well I don't think it's a matter of pride, it's a matter of who I am. And I'm okay with that. You want to be something else, be something else. But you know this is what I am, you know I'm not, I'm not a mixture, somebody else is going to build their own house, plant berries, that's what I like to, that's what I do. Somebody else has different interests, that's them. KJ: It seems like you have a very strong sense of identity. How would you kind of categorize what your identity means to you? Like what exactly does being Ukrainian mean to you? DS: It's the Church practices, the religion, the traditions. There's many different, one of the things growing up as being Ukrainian is you have to know who you are and how you're different from everybody else. So, you have a more stronger sense of where you came from, why these things are your traditions, what they are. Why you have certain feelings, you know I have certain feelings. I mean one of them, I have a great love for mountainous area. I mean that was one thing when I went across country and you know everything's flat until you hit Ohio. When I drove home from the service, when I got out, being in flat land makes me nervous. It's like I'm on a big hill but I can't see the edge. But I love the mountains and you know when I look where my grandparents came from, my wife's father always talked about finding the mountains which are a lot taller than New York. But he also had the same thing, he loves mushrooms that was the other thing I, I have a dilemma when I go to the woods because I like to hunt, and I like mushrooms, and I did the logging. So, I'm in the woods and I go well that's a nice tree, I could make a, oh look at these mushrooms, oh wait you're hunting! KJ: Sounds like you have a very busy life going on. DS: Yeah, I just never was one to sit around and do nothing. KD: So, you mentioned that you have a strong sense of who you are and how You're different from other types of cultures. What would you say makes you the most different from any other culture? DS: The most different from any other, I don't think there's that much difference, I think in every culture you have people who are stronger, people that value time and are always producing something. You know I wouldn't see myself as being different, different in a sense that I'm different from everybody else. I just have these values that I worked towards, and some people have other values that they worked towards. KJ: So, we're coming towards the end of the interview. We have like 8 minutes left. KD: How do you think your opinions would be different if you came here by yourself? Like if you were the one that came to America? DS: How would my opinions be different? I don't know if my opinions would be different, what I would face would be different, and how I would have gotten here would be different. My grandparents faced what was going on in that time, and in this country isn't the same as it was 100 years ago when they came here. The situation's not the same as what they came under 100 years, it's a lot different from when I was born. I mean I could still remember my one channel on TV, no microwaves, and it was strange that we were cleaning out my mother's house, she died here on Easter, and we were cleaning her house and there was this thing. And my brothers and sisters didn't know what it was, and it was the floodlights they used to use for making video cameras cause your video camera now, you don't need it, but they used to have 4 big floodlights and they used to walk around to make a 50 minute, a 50-foot reel thing. So, there's a lot of things that are different there, but they're both different here and different from where I had come from, if I was to just come here by myself. KD: Did your parents ever tell you anything about coming over, travel wise? DS: My parents didn't come here, my grandparents, when you talked to them it was the equivalent of going from here to Philadelphia with whatever you had on your back or whatever you could carry. And maybe that trip to get to the boat and come over here, when you're on the boat. KD: Did they ever go back after they came here? DS: Well my grandfather did go back at the time, the one grandfather, my mother's father. The others they never went back. Of course, most of it was that they were from Ukraine, so it was closed up after World War I, after Stalin, Lenin, overtook Ukraine and they corresponded and it was very sporadic. KJ: Did they have good experiences, like do they remember Ukraine fondly or is it more of a bittersweet memory? DS: It's probably bittersweet. They liked some of the things, but life was hard over there, it was. You worked all year and all summer long, morning to night, to survive. KJ: Yeah, it's a very difficult lifestyle. Did any of your grandparents fight in the war? DS: I don't believe so. My father was in the war, my wife's father, he was in World War II. He actually fought in UFA, which was the Ukrainian army. He actually fought in most of the service, and the communists. Well they actually fought against the communists because Ukraine at the time saw communism just as bad, worse, than they say Nazism. There was a lot of guys that came over here that did fight for them and they were scared. They were scared for a long time that someone was going to come for them. KJ: I can imagine. So, we have a couple minutes left, so is there anything that you would like to add to the interview that we didn't already discuss? DS: It's good to see you doing this. I mean it's always good to share what you know. That's one of the things that I think, one of the worst things now is I built my own house, I have all these other things I've done, but there's not anybody really to take any of that knowledge. I mean either from there's nobody that has an interest, which is a problem. I mean we're looking at my parents' house and there's nobody that wants a fixer-upper. They want to go in, give me a TV and internet connection and let somebody else do the work. That's not a good attitude to have. KD: So, have you had a chance to share your story with anyone else? DS: Not directly like this, I mean I always shared with my kids, I mean they know a lot of the stories and stuff and they remember what they grew up with. And my son now, he's on his own, he's doing stuff to his house. He's picked it up and thought oh I want to do this and do that. So now he's doing it. He was just at my place making his own molding for his house. He told molding out and was exchanging it for pine molding. KJ: That's nice. I mean you could consider this your legacy, which is pretty cool to have. You know you're going to go into the records, people will be able to see what your life was like. It's very interesting. Well, thank you for speaking with us. KD: Thank you for your time. KJ: This was very informative. DS: Oh, you're welcome. There's lots of things that people used to have, even driving in this area and what used to be here and what isn't. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Sanyshyn Subject The topic of the resource Sanyshyn, David. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Church; Ukrainian--music; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sanyshyn, David ; DeLuca, Kevin ; Jermansky, Kayla Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David Sanyshyn is a retired engineer and is a third generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in the Binghamton area. He is a Vietnam War veteran, having served two terms in the Navy, and is active in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. He met his wife, a second generation Ukrainian, in the United States. They have 3 children together and 4 grandchildren, and reside in Binghamton. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Sanyshyn.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc6414cb847b92615528f12f157e893b.m4a 360ef79440082a875907dd9be6ef6bae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geraldine Czebiniak Biographical Text Geraldine Czebiniak is a Ukrainian immigrant who left Ukraine at the age of seven during the Second World War. She went to Germany with her family and stayed in a camp for displaced people. She migrated to the United States when she was 13 years old. She is currently a member of Sacred Hearth Orthodox Church and resides in Binghamton with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 50:09 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Czebiniak, Geraldine. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; World War, 1939-1945—Prisoner-of-war camps; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GeraldineCzebiniak.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Immigrants; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Geraldine Czebiniak Interviewed by: Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Transcriber: Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Date of interview: 6 April 2016 Interview Setting: Sacred Hearth Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Sarah Hutcher: Okay so, my name is Sarah Hutcher. Erman Tartar: And my name is Erman Tartar. SH: And we are here with-- Geraldine Czebiniak: Geraldine Czebiniak. SH: And we are here at Sacred Heart Catholic Church and we are interviewing Geri about Ukrainian life in Binghamton. ET: And first we want to start with how old were you and when did you immigrant to the United States? And how old were your parents and grandparents? GS: I was thirteen years old when I came to the United States I was seven years old when we left our Ukrainian village, our town that we lived in, my father was the principal of a boys school because they had a school where boys and girls were separated, he was the principal of a boys school and we had to immigrate because of the war, going back and forth, so we ended up in Germany when the war ended, World War II, than um so we were displaced persons as we were called then and we lived in a camp, they were schools made into a camp, we lived there for several years and the United States and other countries would take people into their countries to immigrate and that's why we immigrated to the United States after the war and there was a man here that my father's friend and he went to New York and saw this man at some kind of concert in New York and we had to have immigration, you had to have a job over here and a place to live and so this man signed papers saying he had a job for my father and a place to live. SH: Wow. That's crazy. GS: And that's how we came. ET: Yeah-- GS: Not like the way to do it now. SH: Right! GS: So, this friend of my father's found this friend from Binghamton actually. SH: Okay. GS: He was here and he said that he had a job and stuff so that's why we came. SH: What kind of job was it? GS: Actually my father was washing dishes at the old hospital, but it was okay because we were so happy to come here, we didn't care where he worked. SH: Yea, it was something. ET: Yeah, absolutely. GS: And then my mother got a job in the factory and it used to be a shoe factory, antigenic, but not anymore, it's not what it used to be and it was me and my two sisters that was my family, yeah. SH: That's sweet. And so, I know there were a lot of people working at the cigar, like the cigar factory, do you have any memory of that? GS: No, nobody that I know. SH: No? No one that you know? GS: No no one I know of-- ET: And you said you stayed at a camp after the war? GS: Yes, we-- ET: What was that like? GS: Well after the uh, actually, we stayed, at several camps, one camp was run by Germans and we were very worried that we were going to get killed cause that's when Germans were killing Jewish people and we thought that we were in the crowd that we were one of them so our lives were very always worried about living, that's all you worried about, living. Yeah, know? And um, so that camp was-- **Pause because the lights in the room when out.** ET: and your camp? GS: and the camp after the war, when the United States took over they organized all these people, and they had no place to live, they made the camps out of schools, building schools that was very nice because the United States treated us very well. There was no question about it, especially the children, we had extra, special care packages and things like that. SH: Yeah. GS: The children were um, SH: Treated well. GS: Treated very well. SH: And I mean, how old were you when? GS: When we lived there? ET: Seven years old right? GS: I was seven years old. SH: Okay seven. GS: We lived, when we left Ukraine, I was seven and when we left I was thirteen, August time was during the war and Germany and other countries right from Ukraine all the way to Germany. We moved from place to place to get away from the Russians. ET: Woah. GS: And so it was a rough, it was a very rough. ET: This is amazing, you're remembering, you were only seven years old, yeah. GS: I don't remember too many things about when I was little, you know, I don't remember, but the war and hiding, and running to the shelters all the time and I was little and I just, didn't want to leave sleep, I didn't want to go to the shelter but you know. SH: Even just going through that, even if you don’t remember it, still--. GS: Yes, yes, okay, any other questions? SH: Let's see what we got--um so when you got to Binghamton what was it like being Ukrainian here and um you know, did you notice a difference in your upbringing than like compared to like the kids that lived here? GS: I was, well, I didn't know English very well, I knew a couple of things yeah know in the camp you learn how to sing songs and stuff like that, I didn't understand the language, so um I was put in sixth great but I went to second grade to learn how to read and write and stuff, but it doesn't take long, when you're young you learn very fast. ET: Yeah, very fast. GS: A couple of months I was okay, you know? I was right where I belong, you know, and then I went to St. Patrick's and then I graduated from there. SH: Wow. GS: So I was okay, it was okay. SH: Wow. ET: I was just wondering when you came here did you, all family came here? GS: Yes, except my oldest sister, because she was older, she came like three months before we did. SH: Oh okay! GS: We were separated because she was of age. SH: Right. GS: I was the youngest of the three. ET: She have to wait here? GS: She had to, her visa came, her paper came three months before ours did, but it was okay because we knew she was coming here too, she was included in our family package, but she came three months before we did. SH: wow okay. So at least you got to be all together. GS: Yes, yes, we were very lucky because we used to ride together because there were many people, lost their parents or their children during the war, it was terrible. SH: Oh gosh. GS: So, SH: Thankfully you don't have too much memory of it. GS: I know, because it's amazing, my kids, I have four of them, SH: That was one of the questions. GS: Oh yeah? And they just are amazed we're as healthy as we are mentally, yea, but you live through that and your kind of forget, it's like a dream, a bad dream. SH: You got to keep moving forward. ET: Definitely. SH: I've met other survivors, and they have the same mentality. GS: That's right, you have to survive. SH: Just push forward. GS: That's right, no matter what country you are or nationality or the all lived through things, you survive it. SH: Yea, alright, so, where were your parents born? GS: My parents were born. Oh you mean city? SH: Yeah. GS: It's Ukraine, um, my parents, my father and my mother was from Stanislav, which is now called Ivano-Frankivsk, it was a city that they lived in, they were born there and then they, my father he went to school and he became a teacher and then a principal and then he moved to a smaller city and he became a principal of a smaller school it was a smaller city, it was not Stanislav. SH: And I mean there is a pretty decent sized Ukrainian population here in Binghamton, did they know anyone coming over here? GS: Well the person who signed that paper, he was Ukrainian, and he brought a lot of people over and then right away we joined the Church because we were Catholic and they communicant welcomed us so to speak. SH: That's great. GS: It was very nice. SH: Like a home away from home. GS: Yes yes, that's it. SH: It's easier to settle. GS: You have the church, you know. Right away and the church has the same language which was the same so that was very refreshing so to speak. ET: We are wondering; your friends are also Catholic? GS: Yes, that's right, they were, brought up from way back. SH: And so when you had kids was religion something. GS: Yes. SH: That was emphasized. GS: Yes, we were very active in our church and religion is very important to me, to us, and they all go to our church and I'm lucky because all four of them live locally. SH: Oh that's great. GS: So, we see each other at least once a week. SH: That's good. GS: They're all married. SH: Do they enforce it [religion] in their homes? GS: Yes they do. SH: Look at that. GS: So far so good. ET: Yes. GS: One of my daughters, the kids they used to go to the church and now they kind of broke away a little bit SH: They'll come back, they'll come back. GS: They'll come back, I hope so. SH: Maybe they just need a little time, they have to discover their own thing so-- SH: Yeah, very cool. ET: Did you have any household items or relics from the Ukraine in your home? GS: No. ET: Anything you remember from when you were a child? GS: Not anything, nothing because at one time or place where we lived it was bombed so all we were left were what we had on ourselves. ET: Yeah. SH: Wow. GS: We had nothing left so, nothing nothing that reminds me of home. SH: Wow. GS: Yeah so. SH: Have you ever visited Ukraine? GS: Pardon? SH: Have you ever visited Ukraine? GS: Oh no, but I've always wanted to, with four children and my husband, well he passed away, but I've been busy and never had the finances. I never had the money, when I had my husband we had to work because he says, you know, that's our family and we're to bring them up the way, you know, as you should be home which I did, I stayed home for eleven years and then worked, and then you know, we couldn't really afford to go back, I'd love to go but now now I'm too old and I can't walk too good, I have problems, too late too late. SH: You never know! Hopefully. ET: Your husband also Ukrainian? GS: Yes he was Ukrainian but he was born here, he was born here, we got married in our church because he was part of, he belonged to this church, and when I came you know. SH: How'd you guys meet? GS: Oh, in the choir. SH: Oh did you? That's sweet! GS: And I was quite a young bride but you know that was okay. SH: How old were you? GS: I was 19, 20 when I got married, I was young. SH: My cousin just got married at 18. GS: Oh yeah? SH: Which is very young. GS: Very young nowadays. SH: Nowadays, oh my gosh. GS: Because everyone gets married later. SH: My other cousin got married at like 37 so, it's different, definitely different. GS: To each his own. SH: Yes, but yea 19 is young. GS: Yup. ET: Do you think that there is a problem or an issue if they are not from the same culture? Like if not Ukrainian or Catholic Orthodox and want to marry at this time? GS: No I font think there would be any problems, no. SH: Do you think it would have upset you parents if you wanted to marry someone that wasn't Ukrainian. ET: For example, if you didn't want to marry-- GS: No not really. SH: Wow that's cool. GS: I don't think so. SH: I thought maybe they would. ET: Because sometimes a minority wants to protect their culture. GS: Right right, I never felt that, well you know I never felt that they would forbid it or anything like that they just, I got married to a Ukrainian and so did my sister and it just went on, my other sister also, it never appeared, it never became a problem so no. SH: Did you, you know, raising your four children, did you ever have special Ukrainian things in your household that you did, special holidays. GS: Yes we have lots of embroidered Ukrainian pillows, we did a lot of Ukrainian Easter eggs, I font know if you know of those. SH: We just saw them downstairs; they are so cool. GS: Yea they all know how to do those. They're very ornate. GS: they're very very, takes hours to do one, but they like to do this. SH: So your whole family does that? ET: Yeah, it's very cultural. GS: Yea, we love the American ways too but we have our own. SH: That was a question too! GS: As long as, I font have anything against living in the United States, they allow us to do this, to have your own culture, we you know so, we're very lucky, we love the United States, they gave us a life. SH: that's awesome, you keep answering our questions, you're doing awesome! ET: Very good. GS: Oh no! SH: No that's okay, that's a good thing. ET: How long did it take for you to feel at home and comfortable in Binghamton? GS: Um, I would say probably a couple of years. ET: A couple of years, I can understand that. GS: You know when we left there completely different kind of life. We had our own apartment, completely different kind of life, I would say a couple of years to feel at home. SH: Do you think it took your parents and your older siblings a little longer. GS: I think so cause younger people, they adapt. SH: Right. ET: A lot quicker. SH: They're flexible. GS: Yes, they are. SH: How long would you say, did they ever feel totally comfortable you think? GS: My mother, she didn't speak English very well, she went to the factory to work and she worked with people who spoke Ukrainian and Polish, so she didn't. SH: She didn't have to learn. GS: She didn't have to learn English. SH: Did she--. GS: My father did, he knew how to speak English. SH: In your household did you feel like you used Ukrainian more. GS: Yes, I font do that now. SH: I was going to say, are you still fluent? GS: Yes I am actually. SH: That's really cool. GS: My kids when they were little I used to speak to them in Ukrainian and once they went to school that changed a little and in the neighborhood they learned English, and they speak English at home now. ET: Right. SH: Do you think any of it stuck with them? GS: Oh yes. SH: Oh wow. GS: My grandchildren, Steven, has one of my grandsons he wants to learn Ukrainian, at school they're going to give classes so he wants to learn. SH: That's great. GS: It's great. SH: I was going to ask, and, I know I keep asking, did your husband speak? GS: Yes, he spoke it. SH: Oh wow so everyone. GS: We all spoke Ukrainian in the house and you know then they went to school and-- SH: It's hard to enforce it because everyone is speaking English. G: And the neighborhood, big influence. SH: Did you go to college? GS: No I didn't. SH: No? GS: I got married, I finished high school and I got married, I was almost 19 when I got out of high school because I was losing time during the war I didn't go to school, for almost four years I didn't go, it was like no life. SH: did you friends? Did any of your friends go to college or was it more common to just work? GS: Far more common to just work, you know. SH: And just settle down. GS: My children it's a different story, they all went to college, but that's different. ET: We were both wondering at this time did you feel any disconnection from social life when you came here. GS: not really I didn't not really, I never really felt that and maybe it was because we were amongst our own but then when you work, I worked in a hospital, I never felt discriminated against, I font know but I never felt that way. SH: That's good, probably ‘cause it seems more common, it such a large community up here. GS: Could be could be. SH: Now just out of curiosity, with the church population, is everyone Ukrainian? Is there a mix? ET: All different? GS: Oh no, some are married to English people or other nationalities, they come, they want to come they can, and some of them do come, some of them are married and are from different nationalities want to come and do come and they want to be a part of our church, and they're welcome to, and they feel comfortable, wife or husband they are connected in that way. ET: We want to ask, which culture do you feel has shaped you, Ukrainian or American, because you are so young when you come here, you are just seven years old. GS: Yeah, I would say American more. ET: What do you observe in yourself that is more American culture? GS: I don't know. ET: It's a hard question. GS: It's a hard one, American culture well maybe my other question, probably I should change it, because I'm more Ukrainian than American because we keep our own culture more or less so I, but American. SH: You could say both. GS: Yeah well both, that's the best way because a little bit of English and a little bit Ukrainian SH: Yea I mean one of my questions was um did you feel comfortable or I guess assimilated enough to celebrate, oh well I mean did your parents celebrate things like thanksgiving? GS: Oh yes. SH: All that stuff? Wow! You felt comfortable right away. GS: Absolutely yes, cookouts and Thanksgiving. SH: Your generation seems I think more grate than my generation to live where we live. ET: It's true, it's true. ET: Do you see the differences between your generation and the younger generation with faith maybe? GS: yea with the faith maybe a little different, the younger generation doesn't seem to be as connected as or as how you say it connected, definitely not as connected. They're more Americanized, which is okay you know there's nothing wrong with that but I feel like. ET: Are there any differences between the Ukrainian catholic culture and American catholic culture? Also catholic Ukraine orthodox? GS: No, the culture is different than the religion, the Ukrainian catholic orthodox is the same, we have the same services and everything it's just that the Catholic Church belongs to and is connected with the pope and that Vatican as the orthodox does not. That's the difference, but the services are not the same but similar, let's say it's similar. ET: What kind of things are similar. GS: The church service is what time talking about the service itself when the priest dresses the same as ours does even some of the prayers the same but they are font, the orthodox church does not recognize the pope as we do, that's the big difference like the catholic church. SH: and I'm not catholic, what does recognize the pope mean? Do they just not see him as being? GS: Head of the church. SH: Oh okay. GS: Because the Catholics are Latin right Catholics and recognize the pope as the head of the whole church, excuse me, the catholic church has a lot of right and we're byzantine rights and there are 22 right, 22 ways of serving God but they're still connected with Rome with the Vatican, so that's the differ and the orthodox font recognize him as the head of the church. SH: Okay and did you ever have a confirmation? GS: We are confirmed when we are baptized. SH: And what's when yours little? GS: Yes. SH: Oh I was going to say, did you have a confirmation in America? Ukraine? Germany? GS: No no. SH: So you don't remember? GS: That happened in Ukraine when I was little. SH: Little little, that's probably smart too. GS: Yeah. SH: Get that done early. ET: I was always wondering when I was a child I saw some Armenian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian orthodox church. What they are different? Why are they not the same Orthodox Church? GS: Why font they go to? Probably the language, I would imagine probably the language because I think if it was all in English it wouldn't all be different. ET: Yes yes. SH: anything you want to ask? You're like good, you're sticking to the script. GS: I'm glad you're asking questions cause to think about what to say. SH: It's probably so much. GS: I wouldn't know what to tell you. SH: I mean what has happened in your life in the first ten years is more than my 21. ET: I really wondered about this, did you remember the Soviet Union years. GS: Oh yes, I remember those few incidences when the soviets came to our town and our house , I remember we had holy picture on the wall and they threw them on the floor and that kind of stuck in my mind so much and I remember my mother had watches and jewelry and they took everything, and my parents we were just standing there and you couldn't do anything cause they would shoot you, if you say 'don't touch your something like they, when they came it was like ' just take whatever you want' and it was bad, it was bad, yes and then the Germans would move them back and the Germans would take over, and when the Germans would take over my father was arrested by the Germans. ET: Oh whoa! SH: For how long? GS: For a couple of months but the reason he was imprisoned because my uncle had a store and he was helping the Ukrainian underground army, fighting and trying to keep Ukraine independent and they were trying he was helping them and eventually and giving them food and the Germans wanted to know where the main office was and my was uncle arrested and my father, they had him in the next cell and they would beating my uncle to death because they wanted to know, they wanted my father to tell my uncle where is the main office? And where is the army the underground army and my father told them he couldn't tell him, my uncle what to do. So-- SH: Wow, so how old was your uncle, do you remember? GS: He was like in his early forties, like forty-two. SH: Oh my gosh! GS: And you know those boots the Germans had, I'm talking about Nazi's, I'm not talking about German people. SH: Yeah, no, oh definitely. ET: Definitely definitely. GS: Those boots, they kicked him so much he died. SH: Oh my gosh! GS: Yeah, it was terrible, so we have, and then the front would move back, we we under the Russians, we kept moving from one town to the next to keep away from, from being over our enemies. ET: Okay so. GS: That's why we ended up in Germany. SH: Yeah. GS: Because Ukrainian and Germany are quite a few countries, we were in Poland ya know we kept moving so that's what, that's how we ended up in Germany when the war finished and that's when the Americans took over and also when the we stayed in an underground shelter for two weeks. SH: Wow! GS: We couldn't get out because we were being bombed so much that, America bombed so much, it was the end of the war that we had to stay in the bunker for a solid two weeks, we didn't get to change our clothes, my toes were rotting in my shoes, so yea, you know it was a bad time but you know some how you survived, and when they stopped bombing we came out and we didn't know how the Americans were going to treat us. ET: Oh yea yeah yeah. GS: cause we didn't know but they treated us very well, ohhh they were so nice to us and they and like I said the organized the schools, like one room classroom there was like 35 people in one class room, different families and they would give us blankets and there was one family there was another family because they had to put us all together, and you know we had to live like that and little by little different countries would different people, I font know Belgium would take people Britain took people, displaced people and you know like now we have refugees and so that was yeah. SH: I'm like wow. ET: That was amazing, that was really amazing, yeah. SH: I font know, that really moved me. ET: How many friends your family have? GS: Friends? ET: Oh I'm sorry, sibling? GS: My father had my aunt, my uncle, three-- there was four of them, four total, he had a brother and two sisters. SH: Did any of them come over here? GS: Yeah, one of my aunts came. SH: Oh that's great. GS: Yes and she was here living with us but she passed away, once he found out that his siblings, because he didn't know where they were but somehow she got to the United States, and my father found out that she lived here he made sure she came here, you know bring the family together as much as you can. SH: Did you feel like your parent's kind of you know like? Did you feel like-- GS: Yeah, my uncle. SH: Did you feel like your parents sheltered you from that or did you find out later in life? GS: Yeah, they sheltered that. SH: They didn't want you to know that. GS: I know this is terrible but when the Germans came and were going after the Jewish they were throwing babies up against the wall to kill them, because they didn't want to use the ammunition to kill them this is terrible, I get goose pimples so my mother wouldn't let us go see anything that happened like that cause she protected us from seeing things that people and stuff like that, she protected us as much as she could. ET: Did you lose any of your friends? GS: No we didn't we were so lucky, so lucky, my mother had a blessed mother picture and God saved us, that's what she felt you know, that God saved us cause a lot of times. SH: You're so cool. ET: Yes! GS: Because a lot of times the way things looked my father worked even during the war he had to have a job so he worked the railroad station and when the bombs started alarm came, we ran to hide he would hide in one place and we would hide in another and you know chances are we might have gotten killed, but so far, I font know we always got together somehow. SH: That's amazing. GS: that's where we're, very religious because we feel that God saved. SH: He brought you through so much. ET: Yes, yes. SH: So much. GS: The whole family, there's five of us and we didn't lose any, I didn't lose any. SH: That's amazing. ET: Amazing. GS: A lot of people lost their parents during war, ya know bombs and stuff, we were very lucky, we were very fortunate. ET: I know this time was very hard, but did you miss anything about these times about Ukrainian life? GS: To be honest with you I font, I font remember too much to, yea, I was seven years old when we left so I just started school I didn't, you know I can't say that I missed too much for Ukraine. ET: Yeah, I understand, you had a friend before we came here. GS: Oh in Germany I did. ET: Do you remember? GS: I don't remember anyone in Ukraine but I remember people in the camp because we lived there for a few years, about four years. SH: Were there Jewish people? GS: No there were, they were all displaced people. SH: Oh yes you said that. ET: Yes, displaced. SH: It wasn't like. GS: No. SH: Okay. GS: Just a place to stay and from there we came to the United States, no no it wasn't a camp, like you talk about Jewish camps, it wasn't a concentration camp. SH: It wasn't like like that okay. GS: No it wasn't. SH: I think you would've mentioned that by now. ET: So, on one side you have Germany and the other you have Russia. GS: Yeah they kept going back and forth, Ukraine. ET: Oh my gosh! GS: They, the front, they would move back and forth so that happened a few times to us we kept moving back and that's how come we ended up in Germany. SH: Now here in Binghamton, do you feel, not to totally change the subject but do you feel like there are any other, cause I'm not sure, I know the Ukrainian population is pretty prominent do you know of any other populations here. GS: oh yes there is a Polish Community, there's a Slavic community, there's you know, other nationalities that kind of hung together. SH: Do you think they came here around a similar time. GS: Well you know it depends, some of them came after the war sometimes some of them were born here. ET: Yes, because Poland like Ukrainian, also with Germany and Russian. GS: Yes, because the fronts, the immigration more or less. SH: I was just curious, I wasn't sure. GS: Yeah yeah. ET: So, you are saying ethnicity and religion are not important, they tried to save all the displaced people, this is amazing. GS: That's right, that's right, it didn't matter. We were already in camp we had services, they had one room set aside like a chapel, orthodox had their service, catholic had their service other religions whatever had their services this was like in the camp so we got along with everybody, you have to, you have to help each other, that's what it is, when you're in trouble you help each other, it didn't matter who you were as long as you could help. You know, so-- ET: What about your mother's side, we know your father's side, but what about your mother? She's Catholic. GS: Yes yes. ET: She came here-- GS: Well my mother and father, no, none of them were here, my grandmother, she died before we came here so, and my mother had, the uncle who I said was killed by Germans, he was my mother's sisters’ husband so it was that kind of family, but none of my mother's family was here at all, my father's family was here but none of my mothers, they died before they got here. ET: All of them or? GS: Yeah, it was just the father died long ago when she was just a little girl and the mother was older and the sister, the sister was left behind but she died shortly after when we came here, my mother didn't have any family here at all. S: That's hard. GS: Yeah. SH: Do you feel like she had a preference? I know my mom's family came from Ireland and before they were able to get into the country they stayed in Canada for a little bit and she was always really mad they didn't stay in Canada. Do you feel like your mother had a preference? GS: Eh not really. SH: no she was just happy you guys were all safe, alive and well. GS: Yes that's it, right. SH: I'm sure you don't get too picky after what happened to you guys. GS: That's right, that's right after you lose your home and your place. ET: I was wondering after all these hard years, did your father try to go back or ever want to go back because it's hard to adopt here after. GS: No no, this is how, we said, no he never tried to go back. ET: I can understand. GS: No he was happy to be here because it was a free country and you had the freedom which we didn't have for years, no he never expressed that he would like to go back or anything like that. ET: Yes, yes, are you watching the television and news about Ukraine right now? GS: Sometimes. ET: Do you follow the Ukraine? GS: Yes, yeah I do, we do, we do; we keep up. We have a collection for the soldiers you know in our church we have a bake sale and we donate the money we've collected and send it to Europe because we have to help them. You know Russia is not very nice to us, you know Putin is not very nice taking, they're stronger than we are so they're going to take advantage of us but you know, Putin is something else, that's all I have to say. ET: Do you think Ukraine and Russia is close to each other, I'm just wondering. GS: Well I think maybe now because Ukraine was under Russia for what, seventy years, under Russian rule but I think, I'm talking about over there not here. ET: Okay. GS: I imagined inter marriages, maybe there is some mixed up, I really couldn't tell you for sure, because they were close, they lived together so to speak, but we still wanted our independence you know. ET: Absolutely. ET: Do you have any other hobbies here? GS: I love to cook and bake, you know so, I do that for sure, I worked for 38 years at Wilson hospital and not a nurse, I was a secretary. SH: My mom did that when I was younger! GS: Oh really? SH: Yeah, she was a secretary, she loved it, at a hospital; you see a lot. GS: Yeah, um I did, so I worked for 38 years, I retired when I was 69. SH: That's a long time, a long while, very cool. Just out of curiosity, where did you work in the hospital, like a certain? GS: Surgical floor mostly, orthopedic surgery. ET: Just another thing, did you feel assimilated enough to celebrate holidays like Independence Day and Thanksgiving? GS: Yes yes I do. SH: You seem pretty pro America. GS: Yes absolutely, absolutely I'm both. SH: A lot of people are pretty down on the United States right now. GS: No no not me. I mean there’s politics and stuff but I mean that will blow over. ET: Yes. SH: I think it will blow over, I think things are going to get better, it's been weird for a few years. GS: Ehhh it comes and goes, you know. SH: Yeah, it does it does so I think it will, we'll see, we'll give it a few years, oh that was my question. ET: Yeah. SH: Oh okay so I've been to Israel a few times and then I'll come back to America and try Israel food and I'm like ugh this is horrible, do you feel that way? Is there any Ukrainian food around here? Um or do you have to make it. GS: I have to make it! ET: I'm sure it's much more delicious. SH: Any restaurants for it? GS: I hear there's Ukrainian Restaurants around Binghamton, on Court Street or something, but I've never been there. SH: You've never tried it out. GS: No no never tried it out. SH: What is Ukrainian cuisine? Because I've never. GS: Well you know-- SH: Because you like to bake and cook? GS: Okay, one thing is tortes, we call them tortes, they're eight layers of pastry that you bake and you have to put filling between each layer, there's a walnut torte, you know, different kinds of tortes we make, and that's baking most of the time and food wise pierogi and all kinds of soups, you know nothing specific. SH: Yeah, I know Israeli food is very similar to the countries around it, you know like Lebanese food, do you think it's probably similar to that. GS: I think a lot of those countries are Slavic polish, the foods are more or less the same because they're all so close together, they kind of borrow from each other, you know. ET: You know I am coming from Turkey there is a lot of the same food. SH: You guys have a lot in common. ET: Yes Ukraine and Turkey are so close, and they support each other. GS: That's right that's right, yeah right on the border. SH: Are your languages similar? GS: No no. ET: Not much. SH: I was going to say you could like try and talk-- ET: The same basics are for the Russian and Ukraine? GS: What? ET: For the languages? GS: The alphabet is the same but the, you know I speak Ukrainian but I don't understand Russian, some words I might understand but hard Russian, no they are not similar. ET: Actually we really want to say thank you. GS: Oh is that all? Oh wonderful. ET: We appreciate it. SH: You answered all our questions really well. GS: I hope you get something out of it. SH: I feel like I learned a lot. ET: It really affected me. SH: I know I teared up. ET: I almost cry. SH: That was awesome, Thank you very much. ET: We want to say thank you very much. GS: Oh you're welcome, no problem, I hope you do well in school, I know you do. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geraldine Czebiniak Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Czebiniak, Geraldine. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; World War, 1939-1945—Prisoner-of-war camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Czebiniak, Geraldine ; Hutcher, Sarah Joy ; Tatar, Erman Sahin Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Geraldine Czebiniak is a Ukrainian immigrant who left Ukraine at age seven during the Second World War. She went with her family to Germany to stay in a camp for displaced people. She migrated to the the United States when she was 13 years old. She is a member of Sacred Hearth Orthodox Church and resides in Binghamton with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Geraldine Czebiniak.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 50:09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9063d5632ca0f5cc2ea6282025b4d6df.m4a 010afa648dbfa2043e31c1e40669d1cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ivan Synevsky Biographical Text Father Ivan Synevsky was born in Western Ukraine region in 1982. He lived in Ukraine until 2001, when he moved to Canada. He lived in Canada for six years, then got married in the United States in 2007. He attended Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010, then was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. He had a parish in New Jersey for two years and in 2012, he was transferred to the local parish. He resides in Johnson City with his wife and three children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:24 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Synevsky, Ivan. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian—Canadian; Ukraine—History; Soviet Union--History; Eastern Orthodox Church; Priest; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia-- History; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=IvanSynevsky.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Priests; Soviet Union; Canada; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Father Ivan Synevsky, Priest Interviewed by: Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Transcriber: Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Tyler Sherven: Hello, today we are interviewing Father Ivan on April 6, 2016, 10am at Binghamton's St John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church. How are you doing Father? Father Ivan Synevsky: I'm doing good, thank you. TS: We're Binghamton students Tyler and this Ege, it’s a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you in your lovely place of worship. For your discretion, you are not obligated to answer any of these questions. If there are any topics you find uncomfortable, please inform us to move on. Ege, would you like to begin with your question Ege Konuk: Hello again, Father Ivan. Like my friend said before, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you. First of all, Father Ivan, could you introduce yourself to our audience. Could you perhaps offer us some information, such as where were you born, when were you born, career, and size of family? IS: Sure, I was born in Ukraine, 1982. Western Ukraine Region. I lived in the Ukraine until 2001, when I moved to Canada. I lived in Canada for 6 years, then I got married in the United States, 2007. At that time, I was also considering going to seminary school. Even though there was one already in Canada that I already applied to, I decided to go to one in the United States. So I went to Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010. Then I was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. I had a parish in New Jersey for 2 years and in 2012 I was transferred to this parish. I, as I said, I am married and have 3 kids now. I also work for the main office of our church in the United States as editor of the magazine. It is called Ukrainian Orthodox Word and I also do other publications, some of the website publishing as well. I published the main calendar of the church; I also am taking care of this parish. TS: You said you lived in Ukraine until 2001. Could you possibly detail the community you grew up in, while you were in Ukraine? IS: Sure, when I was born, at that time, it was still the Soviet Union. In 1989, the Soviet Union started to break up. In 1990, Ukraine proclaimed its independence. The schools have started to change as well. During the Soviet Union, we learned Russian language, Russian literature. After Ukraine became independent, we started to use more Ukrainian language, less Russian. I believe after 2 years, we stopped even learning Russian at all. We started to use all the Ukrainian books, since everything was in Russian. In the area I grew up, my father was a priest, he had a parish in the village, and so we grew up in the village. After my parents passed away when I was 9 years old, we moved to the city where my aunt took us. I had 5 more siblings, there was 6 of us, so we all moved to her apartment. But slowly, we went to school and kind of broke up that number, because when she took us she had her own 4 children, 6 of us. My sister soon after went to look after grandmother and my sister went to the other grandmother, then we kind of shifted in different ways, making work easier on my aunt. But we also come from a large family, where my mother's side, there were 12 kids, 3 died when they were young, so there were 9 left. They were all helping us when we were without parents, which was a great help. Even in that case, when we moved to Canada, we moved as adopted children to Canada-- our relatives took us to Canada, 4 of us, 4 boys and 2 sisters were still in Ukraine, but four boys went to Canada. EK: Well, I wonder how you and your family decided to immigrate to America. I mean that, what motivated this decision? IS: Well, I was in Canada, and my second parents had took us to Canada. He was also a priest, so he moved to the United States, as a priest. And I was visiting them during the Ukrainian festival and I met a girl during the Ukrainian Festival, and I started to air travel from Canada to Oregon State. But where my girl was at the time was Seattle, Washington, because I was traveling to both places. Then not too long, I met my future wife in October and we married in July. Then, like I said, I already applied to theological school in Canada, but since I married in the United States, we decided to stay in the United States, so we applied to Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological School, and we moved there. We were there for 2 and a half years, because I expedited using summers. I guess my reason to move to the United States was, simply, more opportunities here and also there were some immigration papers that were involved at that time, so we decided to move to Canada and not stay in the United States. TS: Has your perspective on America evolved since arriving? Did you happen to have a certain idea of what America was, while you were in Canada or Ukraine? IS: Well I certainly had a different imagination when I was in Ukraine, because I guess all we learned was from movies, and you cannot really learn America by movies. When I moved to Canada, Canada is much like America, it was a big difference when I moved from Ukraine to Canada. Many things were new. But when I moved from Canada to the United States, I guess the only difference that I noticed was that America is much larger, and there are many areas that are occupied more. Whereas in Canada, there are some empty spaces in between the bigger cities, where you can travel 6-7 hours and see nothing on the side. Whereas here, 1 or 2 hours there is something. Even though there is a highway, you can certainly see outlets that you can go and stop somewhere. I haven't been in South America, I don't know what it's like there, but certainly in the North part of the United States, I have some experience. EK: At this point, I want to ask you another question. Does your immediate family hold different views on this country? TS: Different views, as in let's say, when your family was in Ukraine, did they hold different views on perhaps what they saw through movies and other sorts of media and then did that shift? IS: Oh, my family in Ukraine? TS: Your family in Ukraine and Canada, perhaps. IS: I would say the family in Ukraine may still have different views because of our constant communications, I believe they have a better idea how it is in Ukraine. And my siblings in Canada, they've been in the United States too, so I don't think there is much difference. I think the only difference, is that it is a much larger community here. And also in Canada, French is the second language and here Spanish is almost the second language. I guess that is the only difference you have. But everything else looks very similar or the same in the United States and Canada because they share products along the border. TS: I mean they have such a close economic relationship and everything. It's really had to shift between there-- Well, you must have a really strong religious identity, being an Orthodox priest, of course. What happened to inspire you to take on this path and, more broadly, what inspires people to enter your religious community? IS: Well, as I have said before, I am from the priest family. And I grew up in the church, so all the feast days, all the services, we were in the church. Not only my father, but also my six uncles from my mother's side were priests. One was cantor, the whole family was really in the church, so anytime we had celebrations friends, priests that would come. From my very childhood, my dream was to become a priest. Even though that dream dissipated, later on, when I was a teenager because in Ukraine there were times, after Ukraine became independent, there were times of disturbance in the Orthodox ways, where national churches would start to rise up without canonical. There the Byzantine Catholic Church that started to invade the churches. I witnessed many invasions of the church, where people would come to the church and expel the Orthodox people and change all the locks and stuff. So that was happening in 1990-1996, during that time. TS: Could you perhaps elaborate on the transition of the Orthodox Church between the time in the 80s, with the Soviet Union and the 90s? IS: I believe the church decided to separate from Russia completely. When the country, itself, proclaimed its independence, the church wanted to have independence as well, because they were under the patriarch of Russia. They wanted to have their own patriarch so they could have no relationship with Russia because of that long bond that they had and also some stories that the Russian Patriarch was under control of the KGB, and so they wanted to separate for many reasons. There were many attempts, some were at the very beginning, and they were very healthy if everybody said we want the Ukrainian church, let's separate. Even though there were, at times, those of that kind, but yet there was some hesitation from some bishops. Many of them said no at the very end before the meeting, so that didn't happen all together. They had to break up into smaller groups. So that didn't really work well because we orthodox started to be divided. Some wanted to be canonically correct so they would stay with Moscow. Some wanted to be separated from Moscow completely, so they created their own group and started to serve their own services. Outside, look, you cannot see any difference. All Churches are the same. All icons and everything are the same, as I've said before, you cannot tell the difference what group you're on. There's not really a separation of something or making new religions. There is just a separation of governance, governments that wanted to create their own, so they would be completely separate from Russia. So the decision was to separate from the Soviet Union completely and be its own, self-governed in all regions. TS: So there was major push to establish and strengthen the Ukrainian identity after the fall of the Soviet Union? IS: It's really hard, because look, during the Soviet Union, there were times many people would be forcefully moved from one area to another area. Just simply, even my grandparents, they were moved from their village. Simply they load them, bring whatever they can take, and load them on a truck, move them miles, miles away to the city so they could they work and build the cities. They wanted to move the businesses and stuff because everything was owned by the government, so they wanted everyone to work for the government. All the mineries, all the shoe factories, and every business they owned, they wanted people in. So it was a forceful thing to move people around and also they were not just moving in the small country or region, they were moving country to country. They would move people from Russia to Ukraine and Ukraine to Russia, and every nation they had under their control, they would move them in between inside the Soviet Union, and they wanted to make against the mix of nations inside so they could not separate as easily because you would have your own people, people of different religions, nations, so they would always be opposite to the greater community. So that was one part of their politics at the time. I think it worked and in some ways it still works today because many people still are of different nations, but yet what people look now, is, actually, am I happy to be here? Happens to be that Ukraine is a happy place to live for many nations, whether it is Tatars in Crimea, they're really trying to put their voice in, they're unhappy under Russia, so forth. Even Russians themselves, that were living in Ukraine and working in Ukraine, have showed their voice on the TV and elsewhere that they are happy to be in Ukraine, that they don't want anything to do with Russia, since they are still really totalitarian minded because Ukraine started to move toward more democratic ways, more toward the west, they wanted to have things done differently because in Russia you still have that totalitarian view where you'd force someone to do something for you and they didn't want to have that. TS: Considering all the totalitarianism, especially within the Soviet Union, how did the Soviet Union, perhaps, control the Orthodox Church? I mean, from what I understand, the Soviet Union wanted to promote atheist values and I was curious, as to whether how they would, perhaps, control the church? IS: As far as I can see, they started to create different feast days, which were not Christian. Those would be the 8th of March, as they called it Universal Women’s Day, which in America, very little people know about 8th of March, and there's also other, like new year because the church new year would be 14th of January because the church didn't switch the calendar, even though, under the Soviet Union, we have changed the dates to the new calendar, but yet we are still following the old calendar. So our new year was after nativity. Whereas if you take the new calendar, it's a week before because there are thirteen days difference between the two calendars, Julian and Gregorian calendar. The feasts differentiate and so the first of January, for us, is still during lent when we're not really allowed to do any music or any fat foods and so forth. But they started to celebrate that feast a lot. There were also other feasts, they would march, celebration of victories from war and some other stuff. They would make up different names to do at a certain time, when we would do a certain feast. When we would have Pascha, our romaine feast for Easter, they would do something or make people to go and do work outside. Basically, you had to do it, it was a really forceful command, "go and do flowers by the city hall", and you would have to go, otherwise they would release you from your work and so people did differently. Some were obeying whether, but yet, at the times when they didn't work, they would come to church. Some would say no and just simply go to church and see what happens and people did other things. EK: Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask a question about your childhood. I wonder, did you frequently attend Orthodox Church events as a child? If so, could you give examples of these events? IS: Yes, we grew up in Church. Most of the time the priest lives by the church, so we would participate in all the feast days, where there was nativity, Easter, or any other. The main feast is Easter and twelve major feasts, but also every Sunday. I guess Pascha or Easter is the greatest feast for us; we would definitely do many things during that time. The Ukrainian tradition is also that during Easter we would, especially fun for young kids, because during Easter boys and girls would make circles, like chains, they would hold each other, and there was another smaller layer if they can, and walk around the church. That was something for young kids to show their strength and abilities, but it was also nice for other people to look for something. There was mostly boys doing it, but the girls would participate as well, but for the smaller kids or girls there were other activities done at that time. They would sing different songs and play different games during that time; I guess everyone was occupied by doing something. It was a great feast, they would celebrate in such a way that they would really enjoy because Easter is spring time, in spiritual terms as well, so we would really enjoy eating a meal, but also wearing all the bright colors during that time, so it was really amazing. TS: It seems that your church is a really good community builder. Could you, perhaps, go into more depth about the different ways the church strengthens community in all parts of the world? IS: Well, I guess the church itself is actually meaning the communion, and even our main service, liturgy, from the Greek, means work of the people. Even the priest cannot celebrate liturgy by himself, he would have to have more people, at least 2-3 people to celebrate the liturgy with. Even the governments of the church, in all Orthodox Church, is not governed by a bishop or a patriarch, it is governed by all the bishops. Even though we have countries with their own patriarch, but yet, they among themselves are equal. Even though we have a canonical patriarch in Istanbul, but yet he is considered to be first among equal. Anytime we would have certain main things done, they would be done in a Sabor or a council. In the Early church, we had eight canonical councils that had impact on the whole church. They would come, representatives from all churches, whether it was an issue of the holy trinity, issue of the icons, how we venerate them and so forth, and there were other major issues in the church, as they grew up spiritually, they had some difficulties because people started to interpret things differently, they started to create their own groups and so forth of their own teaching. But yet the church, as a whole, put their stand, here's what it is, here's how it is supposed to be after learning and researching the issue. Even today we have that sense, in the United States we have, every 3 years, the Sabor council, where we get all the clergy from the United States and laity and they would all participate in different groups, different questions that we need to decide for the country, for the United States. There is one Greek Orthodox council, which is planned in Crete this year, where all the Orthodox come for the council, so they are going to decide on the issues of whether it is a liturgical practice, whether it is issues of marriage or the calendar, or other things, or governments, so we have some problems that we need to decide. But no one can decide on those questions unless we all come together. TS: So you were saying how the Istanbul patriarch is equal in the eyes of the other bishops, so is equal voices in the council a very significant value of the church? IS: It was from the very beginnings, so even though the church does not claim that, or we do not say that we are democratic or so, we have our own style of governance. But it many ways, it looks like it is democratic because we unite all together to decide certain questions and then it applies to everyone else. Although there are some local, we allow local traditions, but they have to be on a different level because there is a bigger tradition that involves everybody. There are smaller and local traditions that involve just the local communities. EK: You have been, as a priest for a long time. I wonder what training or education you completed to become a priest. IS: Well, I went to Boston school, Greek Holy Cross Theological School, and it was Master of Divinity. Before that I graduated from computer Science College in Ukraine. So basically you would have to have undergrad before you went into the Master of Divinity. Those that did not have, the school has a program in its place. I believe it is called Hellenic college, where you could take any other undergrad area in their school, or elsewhere, and just come to and participate in the higher level there. TS: Are there any experiences outside of your structured education that you consider to be incredibly valuable to your experience as a priest today? IS: Well, definitely, I would say all the experience I have received, whether it's in Ukraine or Canada, or in United States, outside of the church has place in the church as well. I graduated from Computer Science College, so now I able to do things for the church that we didn't have to call other people or pay people for that job. So basically whether it's a website, a publication, computers, I am able to do that so we have many clergy of different backgrounds. Some are doctors, some are known in woodwork, some are known in different ways so we have different and really rich background of clergy that can do different things, which, I guess, helping the community like the previous priest would have different, father Loric, during his time the church rectory was built and the memorial center. He was very well known with his music, he was known for his musical talents, so he would read and write music, he would play music, so he had that talent. The church now uses his music and now a days we still hear all this, even up to today, so it didn't lost value or anything like that. Anything you can do, you can apply in a good way to the church. TS: Studying computer science, you obviously must have a lot of skills in that area. How do you apply that to modern Orthodox Church today, and also, you mentioned that you are part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Word Magazine, so I would imagine that you would have a lot to offer with your computer skills. IS: Well, you may probably know that you have to constantly learn in the computer science because I graduated with computer science in 2001, right just before I went to Canada. Since then many things have changed. What I learned then is different today so I had to completely update myself and learn new languages, learn new programs, and stuff. But at least it gave me a base that I can then jump from there, elsewhere without much hesitation or struggle. I wasn't a publisher, where I didn't know what publishing program before, but there was opportunity to do something with publishing and I, within a short period of time, was able to accommodate the program and learn how to do things. I guess it's easier for a person that has some underground in computers to learn things than to say someone that did not have experience with computers to learn this program. I guess in that way it makes my life easier, it makes the main office life easier. And I started to learn with many things I started to do at the office, were not the things you learn in school. In school you learn basics, but when you go to the workplace, you have to really adjust yourself and learn more things and specifics of certain things you can adjust. And it's also good for publishing books because I'm also on the liturgical commission that I help publish the books and lay out. Since we do it in two languages, English and Ukrainian, so I have to make sure that we have two sides on each page, but there are programs that can do that. I guess we use our talents to simplify and make life easier for many people not just ourselves and use our talents for the glory of god and basically the goal. TS: Further expand your message-- and then you also mentioned, in regards to schooling, you went to Greek Orthodox School for your studies. I was curious, as to if you can elaborate on the differences between Ukrainian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox? IS: The differences? TS: Possibly the similarities? IS: I guess the theology is the same. We are all Orthodox and now we are all in communion. The differences between Greek Church, and Ukrainian, or Russian is that we are in different calendars. They, in 1922, the Greek Church switched to new calendar, whereas the Slavic church did not. So, we still keep the old calendar and so the calendar is the difference. What unites us is the Easter, the Pascha because that is the only day that we have or period of days that we have the same. We would celebrate the Great Lent before Pascha, before Easter, so we have this period the same. There is some specific dates that are different and the calendars are different, yet the Pascha, itself, is the uniting feast day that we all celebrate, as Orthodox. EK: I also wonder your opinions about American traditions or customs. Are there any American traditions or hobbies, activities, large-scale cultural events you find interesting, fun, or rather odd? IS: Well, certainly, the church integrates itself in the community and of course people come from the community and bring, I guess, the American tradition with them. You cannot really do anything with that and some of them are not harmful. Whether it is a tradition has something to do with the Christmas, even though the story maybe, I guess, completely different from the Christian stories, yet there are some Christmas songs or other things they do similar or for Easter they use bunnies, which that has nothing to do with Pascha itself, yet, I mean it's spring, it's first animals running around. You just accept them, they're not really harmful to the faith itself. We try to explain that to people, they know but it's something nice and it's available in stores. I guess the egg hunt is something unique that I did not know in Ukraine, but here in the United States and Canada, it's really popular among the kids and they love it. Even at home they play egg hunt all year. I guess people like to search things out, the feeling of searching something and finding. You give them hints or you don't give them hints and they like that feeling "I can find it, just give me one hint and I'll try to find it. Something Red. What's red?" Everything red is starting to flicker on! I guess there is some fun in the church as well, it's not that bad. And I guess what's unique in Canada and the United States from Ukraine and Russia is that the churches are built in a smaller communities. And so they started to build those memorials or cultural centers beside the church, so they would have those cultural centers, social clubs, which is not present in Ukraine or Russia. In Russia and Ukraine you would only have the church and you could have some other buildings, but they are not necessarily be a cultural center because the whole church, the whole country, or majority of the country or citizens is Orthodox or Christians. You would have one whole for everybody else and Ukrainian language is the number one language, everyone would use different clubs established for that purpose. There was no need to establish that beside the church, whereas here everybody tries to preserve its own language, community, and so they want to have a place where they come and do things together, so they had to build those cultural centers, so I think that's a unique and also after services, we'd go and have a coffee, have meals and there were often times we'd do other things. Even this parish, in particular, has a strong tradition of raising money from the catering services at the hall to build this church, build this rectory and to sustain itself. Whereas in Ukraine, you don't have that. People just donate their time, talent, and money for the upkeep of the church itself, but there was nothing else for upkeep. And then we have the parish we have in Ukraine, certain Orphanages, certain nurseries and stuff, but here it has a little different shift because the church and the community kind of gather together in one thing. TS: So that's sort of something that appears to be unique here in America. For instance, church is the epicenter of all the activities and everything. Also with universities, they include all the activities and in most parts of Europe that is generally not the case, whereas in university it is meant for strictly educational purposes. Do you have any thoughts on these differences? IS: Yeah in America and because of that vast variety of traditions and languages and nations that you have possibilities to have different areas in the universities in the nation. Some, especially some larger universities would have areas of Russia and different European languages so they would study just that area. Whereas in Ukraine, you may have such schools in the capital city where they would learn something like that, but in the majority of the county you don't have that. And also in Ukraine because it's a mostly Christian country, the government itself has certain things already done for its people, so it's not the church doing the thing, it's the government has done it. And I'm sure it's similar in turkey when they do things or elsewhere when the government does something for the people, even though it does not necessarily have to recognize it, that's the only thing we recognize, yet they will build something for the community that they can use it for the benefit of the community. TS: And you also mentioned a lot of large-scale cultural events here in America. Are there large-scale events in the Ukraine? IS: Yes, but I guess the difference between here and there would be the organizers here would be the parish or the national office. Whereas in Ukraine, you would have regular schools doing things. I guess the shift is who is organizing and who is teaching. In Ukraine, you have religious class in each school, where you would learn something about its Orthodox religion in school. There is one class, where the priest or some lady would come and teach the class to the smaller kids. Whereas here, the church has to or the parish has to teach them in Sunday school. Even though we did have Sunday schools in Ukraine, I believe it was during the Soviet Union, my father would gather all the kids in church and would do a class and explain what icons mean, give them a better outlook on what we have so they can better understand. But now it's done more in schools in Ukraine, whereas here, you don't learn that in school. You have to go to church school to learn that. Also the difference is if you participate in different sports, which nowadays is during the Sunday, kids do not participate in the church so they do not get to Sunday school classes because during the week it's impossible to get them because they have different things going on anyway. But on Sundays has been taken away here so we struggle with the way it's been managed in the community. I know many communities have gathered together and asked those big associations "do not do anything until 2 o'clock on Sunday" so they can have those kids in those services and Sunday school but it's still a big problem. EK: Maybe we can prepare more general questions for the rest of our time. I wonder how you describe America to people of your home country. IS: Well, it's a free country where you can express yourself without much limitations, as in Ukraine they have so much oppression. Whoever is in charge of Ukraine land would do certain things we would not allow in Ukraine land, but you would have to learn Russian or in Poland, you would have to learn polish language and so forth. Whereas here, you're free to use your own language without being scared and so forth. I guess the feeling of being free to do things without followed by people that you're doing something wrong. I mean it's a simple thing that you can express yourself that doesn't have to be punished for. TS: With the increasing Russian totalitarianism with Vladimir Putin, what do you think of his rationale to invade the Crimea and other sort of invasions in the Ukraine? IS: Well there was a, they call "Russian World" or certain organization to compile the same or similar Soviet Union that they had before but they would have different ideas of how to do it. Like they would use Orthodox Church, use Christianity itself as a base. Even though they would not necessarily be Christian, they would not necessarily hold Orthodox values, but they would use it for their own benefit. Now it's being recovered in many cases, where there are still people, even in the Ukraine itself, where they would still wanted to say Byelorussian and Ukraine are Slavic nations that need to be held together and be one nation so that they claimed that everyone tries to separate us so let's be together so we can be a strong nation and so forth. So they manipulate in many ways not to have many countries, but have something strong as the Soviet Union because Russia itself is composed of many different countries and they're not Orthodox, they're of many religions as well. So the Orthodox in Russia, if I'm not wrong, I believe Ukrainian popularity of Orthodox is more popular than Russia itself of Orthodox. This is why Russia has so much pressure on Ukraine because it has so many involved in there. They don't simply want to release it because it is a great manipulation for the government if they use it to manipulate the people. If you have control over certain things, it is really easy to manipulate and press the higher authorities to make lower authorities do something else. TS: And Ukraine is also considered the historical birthplace of that Slavic culture too and Russia is trying to-- IS: Because Russia, in Ukrainian eyes, is the daughter country, but many would say that mother Russia and daughter Kiev, they try to flip things over, but they try to rewrite history and make it a different way. I guess for especially Ukrainians, it's really offensive and they don't like to hear that. [Laughing] TS: Nature of totalitarianism, right? [Laughing] EK: I wondered what possessions you took with you. What important things, if any, did you leave behind? Is there anything you regret leaving behind? IS: Certainly the greater community, as everybody, Ukrainian and Orthodox is sad that I left. I guess you didn't have to worry about your language, you didn't have to worry about your religion. You just go and have fun with whoever you meet, whereas here in America, you have to be careful, not careful but you will not make friends if they don't have the same values as you are or I guess the same traditions. It will be hard to live together if you are not of the same background or at least, if you try to preserve the tradition and language, it will be hard to live with someone who doesn't care about it. They would have to be respective of the traditions and faith that you're, so the two accommodate. TS: So, when you arrived in North America, were there certain core aspects of your life that had changed? Such as your diet, your activities, and your social life? IS: Well there is certainly, I can feel on my body the less I move, it gathers more [laughter]. I have to be careful, in Ukraine that was not the case. We did not have our own vehicles, so we would always travel by bus or other transportation. But most of the time you would walk distances, whether it's church, school. There are no school buses, so most of the time you would walk to school. You would be fit in that way, whereas in America, you have to use vehicle to go to the store, you have use vehicle to go to school, to go elsewhere, and moving less because of that makes you, you have to spend more time in gym and other physical activities to compensate that. So I would see that as a big difference because you don't notice at first, but then over time, you see oh "I have to watch my diet now". I guess the food here is different is as well because many things are really fabricated and done in different ways and uses different ingredients. Whereas in Ukraine, for most of the part, it's done locally from good ingredients. Even though nowadays they use new technology, they use the same things that they use in Europe and America, but yet they will still keep the tradition to use just simply bare products without any chemical interactions or GMO or stuff, so they would really, in that sense. And also in Ukraine, many people own a land. They don't have to own the whole farm like we have here in America where person owns a big area of land where they cultivate and make money from. In Ukraine, everybody has a small, they would have a big area, but at least it is small compared to United States, area where they would have their own potatoes, have their own vegetables, and fruits. You would build yourself, using all those natural sources. Even water, many people in Ukraine still use wells, especially in the villages you would have wells, you have to have. If not, your neighbor has it, so you share it and so forth. Whereas in America, it is not allowed because of bacteria and stuff. TS: What do you think about how America is sort of very fixated on their diet and other things to combat these sorts of diseases that come with increased obesity? Do you think America could benefit from the Ukrainian transportation services and more locally based communities, such as small farming that you mentioned, and other sorts of things that seem to occur in urban planning over in that area? IS: Well, I think it depends where how you look or from what angle you look. Of course, the more you sustain yourself and have your own produce, it is beneficial for the person has those sources, but of course it is damaging for the businesses that have been doing the great business for many years. But I think it is beneficial for a person, and community in general, where a person is active and doing things to support itself without looking into something crazy. Sometimes people are really bored because they don't know what to do, but you always have something to do, you have to cultivate your land and stuff, and the result of it is something to do so there is no time that you can just say there's nothing for me to do here. In that way you don't have as many crazy ideas on what to do with your life and the obesity rates will be lower. But also, the Orthodox faith itself has a great practice of fasting. We have 4 major fasts during the year. One great fast is before Easter, so it's forty-nine days before Easter, forty days major, and then there is a week before Easter. So in that time, we would not have meat or milk products and in some communities even oil isn't allowed on certain days. So if you don't eat those products during this time, your body cleanses, you really see the difference and you can literally get from 5 pounds and more. If you are really into the fasting, you can have 20 pounds just like that during the great lent. We also have other smaller Lents that last for weeks, two weeks and one is variation depending on the Pascha. So, if you use those days, you certainly lose your weight, whether you want or not because you're fasting. But it was also during the year, Wednesdays and Fridays also are fasting days, even though they're not as strict, but yet, in some communities, they are really strict during the Great lent. So you would fast during those days, you have two days per week of fasting and if you're preparing for the communion, there is also a certain fasting period beforehand that you have to prepare yourself. We have certain, life itself in the Orthodox faith makes you, if you're really participating, you're not going to be obese because if you really follow it, it will not happen. At least you will not be as obese, maybe a little extra weight but not as bad. The faith itself teaches Christians how to control yourself, how to set limits on food, how to set limits on other things, and how to control yourself not to get in trouble using those bad habits, smoking, drinking, drugs, and so forth. So I believe, in that area, the church really benefits the community because it will help control all those negative things in the community if you really try to help people because it's really helping. It's not something damaging. TS: And also it seems to show how people value their food and where it comes from and everything during those times of fasting. There's also those health promotional events. IS: Yeah, and also the food itself is for all the Orthodox. It's something we considered that god provided even though we can purchase that food, someone can donate the food and so forth, we consider it as something that god helped us sustain ourselves. So we pray before each meal, we blast the food. In Pascha, we blast the meat and dairy products for us to eat. It's not that it's evil for us to eat during lent and period, but it's a blessing done so everyone can eat but also to have limits for us to work on all those but to also be wise enough not to overcome those limits. EK: We are almost out of time for the interview. I would like to ask one more question before we finish the interview. I wonder that do you ever feel homesick. IS: Well, not really because I have so many things to do and I constantly have things to do so I don't really have time to think about it. But I do sometimes, I guess during the winter, it's snowy all the time and you cannot really even go outside that makes me sometimes wonder to go south somewhere and enjoy some sun a little bit, warm up. Since we have so much frost here, my hands sometimes get numb and stuff. But other than that-- TS: Just want to go down south where it's warm [laughing]-- Well it's been a very productive interview. Thank you so much for volunteering your time and providing us this opportunity. It's been fascinating to learn about your experiences, culture, and the great Orthodox Church. IS: Sure, anytime. EK: Thank you for your contributions to the interview and thank you for your sincere answers to our questions. IS: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ivan Synevsky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Synevsky, Ivan ; Konuk, Ege ; Sherven, Tyler Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Father Ivan Synevsky was born in Western Ukraine region in 1982. He lived in Ukraine until 2001, when he moved to Canada. He lived in Canada for six years, then got married in the United States in 2007. He attended Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010, then was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. He had a parish in New Jersey for two years and in 2012, he was transferred to the local parish. He resides in Johnson City with his wife and three children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ivan Synevsky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:24 Subject The topic of the resource Synevsky, Ivan. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian—Canadian; Ukraine—History; Soviet Union--History; Eastern Orthodox Church; Priest; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia-- History; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5af6aa49103c2dd683874f39fdaef0df.m4a f73744d24fdd19500adfd44d9a545c75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Solecky Biographical Text Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:11 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=PeterSolecky.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Poland; Famines; Binghamton (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Peter Solecky Interviewed by: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Transcriber: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Isaac Wolf: I'm Isaac and this is Gabrielle and we are interviewing you for Binghamton University. What you tell us will go into the Historical Archives. Gabrielle Samaniego: Ok, so let's start out with, where were you born? Peter Solecky: Munich. GS: Oh is your family from there? PS: No my family is from the Ukraine. My mother was from central Ukraine, and my father was from south-- southeast corner of Poland which changed from Ukraine to Poland to Ukraine. He was born when it was Ukraine. After he was born it became Poland. You know sometimes they ask-- Are you Ukrainian or Polish? Right now it's Polish. GS: So how did you end up being born in Germany? PS: During the war of course, Hitler sent all his people to the front. They had no body to work the farms or factories, or very few people to work there. So every place he conquered like Poland and Ukraine or anywhere else that he took over, he took volunteers. He decided who volunteered. See my father was volunteered at the age of 16. My mother was volunteered at the age of 13. She actually ran away, because her father was very abusive. At 13, she decided to leave and ran away, you got to give a lot of credit to have a lot of nerve to do that. GS: By herself at 13? PS: Yeah. GS: Wow. PS: And they both ended up on the same farm rather than working in a factory, in Mittenwald, which is up about 5 kilometers from Munich. And uh, they worked in the farms, my father worked in the fields and my mother was milking the cows. IW: Was working on the farm considered to be more desirable than working in a factory? PS: It all depended. If you worked for someone that was good, in either the farm or factory, you could have had a respectable life. My father ended up with a boss who was decent not great but he actually fed him and took care of him. But it really all depended on who was running the show. GS: How long did you stay in Germany? PS: My parents stayed from 1943-1946, and I was born in '46. GS: And then where did you guys move to? PS: We moved here, we were on the D.P. camp, the displaced persons camp. Everyone in a D.P. camp did one of two things, either they went home where they original came from, or they decided not to go home because things were a lot worse home then they were even in Germany. The smart people didn't go home, like my father and mother. They decided that they were going to immigrate so they signed up for Australia. Their second choice was America, they didn't get their first choice. So we ended up here. And they looked for sponsors. My father found somebody who was remotely related to him here in the Binghamton area. Mrs. Nester, and she sponsored us, you had to have a sponsor. Somebody had to sign for you. And in those days your sponsor was responsible for everything! If you went to the hospital they had to pay. It wasn't like it is now. That's what it's all about immigration they came and they had nothing. We came with a box it was about this tall, that's all we had. We started from zero, we lived in Binghamton on Clinton Street. For the first three or four months my father went to work for Dellapenna Brothers on the streets with a jackhammer, he weighed 100 pounds, the jackhammer weighed 90 pounds. And all he could talk about is going back to Germany! He was actually very successful in Germany. He worked the black market? GS: Doing what? PS: He worked cigarettes and whiskey. And he also played cards. He traveled to Italy to France and he played a three cards games. You had two aces, or either a king or queen. And ugh he would show you-- You're supposed to play the queen of course. And the way he played, he would either flip the card from the top or sometimes the bottom. It was really tough to figure out where it is. He was very good at it. He made a lot of money doing it. GS: Really? PS: Yeah! I mean I don't know, but people who knew who always tell me, he was one of the richest men they knew there. He would have suitcases of money --yeah -- he did really well. That's probably why he wanted to go back to Germany because he came here with nothing. He was pretty industry. When the guys used to play cards. He didn't play he sold them cigarettes and booze. Not that bad eh? GS: What did your mom do in America? PS: When she came here? GS: Yes. PS: When she first came here she was just a house wife/mom. For the first four five years. See, I was about 10--so yeah about 4 years. She went to go work at EJ's, that's what everyone did. My father worked for Dellapenna Brothers for only about a year and a half, then he went to work at the shoe factory they both worked there. GS: Do you have any siblings? PS: Yeah. I have a brother and a sister. They were both born here. GS: So are you the oldest? PS: I am the oldest. Interesting story talking about-- I went to Poland with my father in 1969 to meet my grandparents. On my mother's side we could never trace down because she had a name like Smith it was a common name. And she didn't want to find her father. One of her brothers died in the war. The other brother lived and she tried to find him. I did find him but I never found any reference to any other family member. I never met anyone from my mother's side. My father's side I met his whole family. And she met my grandfather and my grandmother. Like I said in 1969, and during the time it was communism! The first thing you do when you come here, is you declare your citizenship no matter if you came from the city, you had to go through the court, the police station and register you were there. They would quiz you on where you from? Or whatever. I was born in Germany. My papers said I was a German citizen. My father was born, it said, in Ukraine. Because at the time he was born it was Ukraine. My grandfather changed to Polish. So we went there and they were like "ok you are German he's Polish, and he's from Ukraine, wait a minute, you can't be a family?" It was very funny, trying to explain. Pretty simple when you think about it. But yeah he was like "You can't be related?" But actually my father looks like my grandfather, and I look like my father, so you could see the resemblance. GS: It would be bad if you guys didn't resemble! PS: Well like I said my father was very industrial. He did very well here too. But my grandfather. He served in 3 different armies. He served in the Ukrainian army, the Polish army, and the Italian army. My grandfather was a womanizer. He would wake up, go make a child, then go back to the war. He did. There are a lot of Solecky’s out there that I don't even know about. I hear stories, he was a "Romeo" I guess. IW: How'd he end up in the Italian army? PS: He volunteered! He thought it would be better than the Polish or Ukrainian army. And it was. For him anyway. He got a horse. So yea. He just didn't want to stay home. So, my father had to work the fields from early age from 12 years old. And he never forgave his father for that. IW: So you mentioned, your father talking about missing Germany, do he ever talk about missing the Ukraine or Poland? PS: No because they had a very hard life. Harder life than they had in Germany. My mother had a hard life. My grandmother died when my mother was only 7 years old. And the father remarried and had three more children. But the other woman didn't like the children from the first marriage. That's pretty common. There's a story. In fact I didn't know until about 6 months before my mother died, that she was pretty sick for a couple of years--.she died of congestive heart failure. And I visited my god mother, the first cousin to my mother, and also another cousin from Australia that came here and they talk, reminisce on what happened when they were in Ukraine. And I didn't realize, it was so bad, my mother was abused, one time apparently, she came home, and she had a beautiful voice, she was a really good dancer, really good vocalist, and I guess she was dancing, and her father looked at her and said "You've been with boys?" and she said " No no" but her step mother said " Yea! She was with boys!" He beat her to a pulp. So bad, her grandmother came, picked her up, and nursed her for several months. He really beat her. No wonder why she ran away! That's why she always says it can't be worse than what she had there [In Ukraine]. A lot of people that talk about people the hunger in Ukraine. They were so hungry. People use to bake their own children. You know babies. GS: Are you serious? PS: Yes I am serious! They would bake them and eat their own children! The starvation! Very few people know about the starvation in the Ukraine in the 40s. Because it's not very publicized. 8 or 9 million people died of starvation. Stalin decided he was going to starve out Ukraine, because he was taking over all the farms in the Ukraine. And the Ukraine was the red basket of Europe. They grew the wheat. And they actually would take this wheat and transport this wheat but not give any to the Ukraine people, though they were starving. Because he wanted them to become Russian. And that's when he decided, since he couldn't starve them to death, then what he said he is going to do is assimilate them into the Russian thing by relocating a lot of Russian people into the Ukraine, which can still be seen now. Eastern part of the Ukraine, a lot of Russians, and the Western are people who are 100% Ukraine. But it didn't work. Most are still Ukrainian. Starving didn't work and trying to force to be Russian didn't work. Ukrainians are pretty resilient. Stubborn! GS: When you got to America, did you go to school? PS: Oh yeah. When I got here I was five years old. I went to kindergarten. I was the first in my family to learn any English. My sister, was born soon after. My mother was pregnant on the way over. GS: How did you guys get here? A boat or--? PS: A boat. Like I told you, he was waiting to go to Australia. That's what his first choice was. But when this came, he just jumped on it, the United States. He came directly from New York City, through Ellis Island. Our names are there. GS: I heard the Ellis Island was awful-- PS: Well for them, they were looking for a new life. Everything was exciting to them believe it or not. GS: The American dream? PS: Yeah, the American dream. You're right. GS: Do you believe that was real/true, The American Dream? PS: Yeah, even the people who were already here. The perception was, back in 1969, my father in Poland, the perception in the communist countries, like Ukraine was if you lived in the United States, money grew up trees. Most people actually talked about money growing on trees because what most people did, would send money home, like the Mexicans now. They were able to have stuff, they weren't able to have. If people didn't have relatives in the states, they couldn't have this opportunity. Relatives in the states would send a lot of money back. GS: Just curious, you are wearing a Cornell hat, did you go there? PS: Yeah, for two hours! About 2 months ago, me and my friends from Montreal went to visit. No, I went to Broome College, then got my master's degree in Electrical engineering. Yeah--.but when I came here, we were DPs', they still called us DPs'. I was a DP till 9th grade, people still called us DPs', GS: Was that derogatory or mean to say to someone? PS: It's a displaced person, yeah. It's like someone from Vietnam coming to the States now. They didn't want us here because remember we came from Germany and they thought we were Nazi Germans. They were very nasty to us because the first wave of immigrants, in the 20s and 30s, they already established themselves. And it was hard to establish yourself. Now the second wave of immigrants in the 50s. During that, there were a lot of jobs, they didn't like it but there were a lot of jobs. And what they spent twenty years trying to get, we got in about five years. They were very jealous of that. And now the second generation, which is me, sometimes get very jealous of people coming over now because when they came over they had absolutely nothing. There was no welfare, there was no help. Nobody gave you a penny. But now look what happens. Nobody told you to go to school. So it's a little bit different. It's better the way it is now. But as I said before, I was the first to learn English and it was very hard getting a place to live, an apartment, because all the soldiers were coming back, and they got first priority. And we were DPs' so we were really frowned upon. My father would send me, even though I was only five years old, because I knew some English, to try to get an apartment, because once they saw you were a DP or didn't speak English that was it. So he sent me, I tried negotiating at five years old to get an apartment! It was funny. GS: Were you successful? PS: Yeah actually, we got an apartment. I was basically your interrupter. Because when my father learned English he learned to read and write. My father went through 4th grade. My mother only went through 2nd grade. My mother never learned to read or write in Ukrainian or English. My father was able to speak English, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech, Italian, French and of course German. He spoke all those languages. So when we came over, he was able to speak to the Italians, he was able to communicate with them, because he traveled a lot for his job in the black market. He worked for EJ's for about 12 years, my mother worked her whole life there. But then he decided that he wanted to try something different. He became a carpenter. He built a bunch of houses right here in the city. In fact, the house I grew up in, is only about 200 hundred yards that way [points outside the window]. The church wasn't here then, when we lived there. My sister still lives in the original house there. IW: So what kind of work was the Dellapenna Brothers? PS: Oh they did pavements. They broke up concrete. They paved stuff. He ended up with a jackhammer which is probably the worst thing there is. IW: Was there ever a time your dad considered going back to hustling cards and such? PS: Every day of his life, he wanted to go back for the next 45 years. IW: Would he consider doing it in the United States? PS: No no, he could not do that here. Here everything is done above board! In Germany at the time everything was done under the table. So many countries in Europe had so much fraud that was going on. Everything was done under the table. Everything. The big business was done under the table. It's just the way it was. When they come over now, the new immigrants, they are all educated but they come from a place where they had to negotiate for everything under the table. But here you could walk in the store, and anyone could buy a loaf of bread! You just have to have the money. Over there you would have to stand in line for two three four hours to get a loaf of bread. And it was like "OMG, I achieved something today I got a loaf of bread!" In the Ukraine it's still pretty bad but that's just the way it is. So when he came here, no he could not do the black market because everything was above board. He had to have a job. But he just couldn't do it. He was too small for the jackhammer. When you first came in, they always put you with the jackhammer because it was the worst job. But he did that for a while. Next, he worked at EJ's and then he worked with the Power House. EJ had over 30,000 employees. They actually generated their own power. They had what they called the Power House. They generated their own electricity. That's what he did. It was coal, he would shovel coal. He worked three jobs at the time with working with EJ's. He worked at EJ's, he sold cars for a small little used car dealership. Well actually, he mostly repaired the cars but he was in the business of that. He also started doing the building business. So he had three jobs for a long time. He slept three, four hours a night. That's all he slept. And my mother did too. And so do I. I only sleep three, four hours a day, I don't know why but it's just the way it is. GS: I need a solid eight hours of sleep! PS: Yeah, I don't know why. But yeah he was successful. He built three, four house around here. Some in Endicott. These four houses right in the neighborhood here that the built. He was pretty successful at it. At the time you could make money off of it. It's a little harder now. GS: What was the educational system like in the Ukraine, and what are the similarities and differences between the US's and Ukraine's educational systems? PS: Well they didn't really teach you anything because you didn't have access to outside information. It was all run by the government. So even if you got an education, it meant nothing when you came over here because they didn't really teach you anything. They didn't tell you what things were like, like Vietnam. When they came over here, they had a totally different perception of how things were here. Ukraine's still coming over, still ask "why are you paying taxes?" And I say "They provide me services, the police, the fire department, you know!" and they say "Well we don't pay taxes, why would we want to pay taxes?!" It's a whole different perception, you know what I mean. You steal as much as you can. It's interesting to see them come over. But they are definitely paying their taxes now. GS: Do you think your parents raised you more in an American way or Ukrainian way? PS: My father was a very proud American. He was one of the few people I know who said he pays his taxes, proudly. He says "I pay for my privilege to be here in the United States." He was a very proud American but they still taught me how to speak, read, and write Ukrainian. My children do and my grandchildren do. My son married a Ukrainian. She doesn't speak Ukrainian but she goes right here to the same church. My daughter married a Ukrainian too. And my son, taught his son Ukrainian, but he adopted a son from Siberia, just four years ago. They couldn't have any children so they adopted one. And my daughter has two children. They speak perfect Ukrainian and English. I have a funny story. My daughter, and I did not approve of this, decided to speak only Ukrainian till they went to school, so they didn't know any English when they were going to kindergarten. So they sent their child to a catholic school and the school had an interview with the kids and they brought him in, and they were talking and talking, and afterwards, he comes downstairs to his mother, and goes "I don't know what they were talking about, I think they were Polish?!" It was English! He didn't know because he never heard English. They only spoke Ukrainian. But like I said my mother and father were very proud to be Americans. They were Americans first. That's why I think is the big difference between immigrants who come now. Before, immigrants didn't want to be Polish or Ukrainian. They wanted to be American. They didn't want to give up their culture but this is where they wanted to live. They wanted to know the culture. They wanted to be American. But today, immigrants who come, don't want to be American. They want to have their own Spanish communities or Muslim communities. That's the difference between immigrants who came during the Second World War and immigrants who come now. They do not come here to assimilate. Unfortunately, that's what part of the problem is. GS: Do you remember what your first neighborhood was like? PS: Yeah, today it's the ghetto. Basically a ghetto today, or whatever you want to call it. I guess it's not really truly a ghetto, its people with very low income and are on welfare are living there, but the family that moved into Clinton Street, which used to be a main drag there, it was a booming town. It was mostly immigrants that came here, and immigrants what they did, it was not just my father they all everybody knew it was basically same they took care of themselves. They moved to, my father moved to an apartment; they actually, basically cleaned everything out, painted, everything was very nice, except the only problem we had cockroach. And my father was always smarter than the rest of the guys. He would figure out, he went and got all the stuff to get rid of cockroaches and guess where they went? To my neighbor upstairs, my best friend. So I tell you how bad that was, I remember opening the door one time I was upstairs and I walked into the bathroom; the bathroom was very small and it was covered, the walls, ceilings, the bath, everything! Everything was cockroaches. And soon I opened the door because they started running around and then if it wasn't the cockroaches it was the rats. We had a lot of rats. Yeah, one time I had one on my chest I woke up and this rat was sitting on my chest. It was a rat it wasn't a mouse. Yeah, they get bigger and everything. But we get rid of that too. IW: So you've been living here for most of your life, how have you seen the community evolve over the years that you have been here? PS: This general community? IW: Yeah, this general community and maybe this whole town/ city of Binghamton as a whole. PS: Well, we came here everything was booming and up until probably I would say twenty years ago. Maybe I'm starting to -- EJ's closed before then, and then IBM, we still had IBM, we had Linux, we had GE, and there was --- it was a very neighborhood place. People knew -- neighbors knew neighbors. Now I don't see my neighbors because they pull their car in a garage and that's it. In fact when they moved up to our neighborhood, it's not a ritzy neighborhood, it's what you'd call upper middle-class neighborhood. I moved there, and you know, I'm an outdoors person and I park my cars outside. I have two garages but Summer I don't keep them in the garage, I leave them outside. They come in they open the garage pull in and you never see them. So, during the first two months I had people stop and tell me, did you take a look at the street all the way up. I say, "yeah, what" -- do you see a car in the road or in the driveway? -- "I say no", "then what the hell are you doing? Put them in a garage?" I said this was a free country, my father did that "now why are you washing your cars outside?" "Because it's my house" I -- GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Pardon me? GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Because these people don't wash their cars. Most of the people living in the neighborhood, not any more now, they were all high-level managers, they were making big money. IW: What was that? PS: They were working for IBM; they were high level management. In fact the guy who lived two houses across the street from me was a lab director. And he didn't interact with anyone -- in a way I can't blame him -- because if you're well -- it's like a politician, they have no private life, everything is public. And they, even the head of the lab managers they go want to go --- someone going to put the blame on them -- so that's why they shy away, so that's why it kind of started that way, but now they're all gone because there is no real IBM here anymore, there's no anything here anymore. But eh, the people are still the same. I have my next-door neighbor, been there for twelve years, I've seen him about three times. GS: Ha ha, I heard that's typical of our, I don't know of our generation? But just like people used to know their neighbors very well. PS: Absolutely, when we first came up here we knew everybody who was in our neighborhood and it's only, and now it's getting worse because everyone's got one of those (Indicates Smartphone) and I do too. GS: iPhone? PS: Yeah, this is how we communicate now, we don't have to see somebody. Or I can see him GS: Facetime? And it's helpful PS: Yeah sure heh, yeah GS: Going back you said you graduated from Broome--? PS: Yeah yeah, I graduated here from (illegible) City High School, and then I went to Broome tech for Engineering Science, from there I went to RIT and got my electrical engineer. Then I was out of school for 18 years and went back for a Master's Degree. IW: At RIT? PS: No, at University of Vermont IW: Oh, my sister goes there. PS: That was a great place. GS: So, after college what was your first job? PS: Here at IBM, I had actually when I was at RIT I had graduated in 1969, I was in the co-op program so even though I graduated in June I had 1 semester to go because I had the summer semester. So like 80% of the class including myself accepted a job at Kodak in Rochester, but my fiancée decided last minute she didn't want to live in Rochester so two weeks before I finished my schooling I had to go for a job and when I looked to go for a job, 1 week later I said I had already accepted a job at Kodak but so did 80% of the class. Well, in 1969 was the first time Kodak laid off 500 people, engineers, guess who went first? The new people! I wouldn't have been working there anyway! GS: You got lucky! PS: So I came here in 69, there weren't that many jobs. It was one of the down years. They only had two jobs for engineering. In that time they employed 15,000 people here and there and they only two jobs for engineering. It wasn't engineering it wasn't electrical engineering which is what I'd want. They had two jobs in programming and since I was desperate I was getting married in a week after I finished school. I hated programming, absolutely hated it, but it ended up being what I was doing, well the manager who interviewed me says, "You know we need programming" I said, "Yeah, I don't like it." I was a prat. He says, "Well that's good, you'll how to do it the right way" and he did. He thought I was ambitious and in six months I liked it a lot. And I did very well from there, I moved up the ladder and in the end I actually had the business office reporting to the manager here at IBM and I worked for division presidents and vice presidents and actually uh a lot of high-level people. And the job I had the time was actually, I had control, well not control, I was the guy who made decisions. We had at that time factories worldwide that made boards, we made boards, the kind of boards that you put components on, and we made the boards here that was my business that was what I was involved in. And one time we had 8 factories around the world, actually it was ten, and had Japan, Italy, Scotland, England, Toronto, Sao. Paulo in Brazil and also in Australia and I had responsibility in that time, I was the one who recommended -- we all made panels worldwide and what we tried to do was make sure that if one plant couldn't make the supply then another plant could pick it up it may sound simple on the surface but it is extremely complicated when you're making boards okay because you have different equipment and anyways it was my responsibility to make sure that I spread the load in terms of who builds what and also what cap co they will have and I had the pleasure of every 3 months having the plant managers have a meeting and they all hated each other because that's the way it is; everybody wants to run their plant there the way they want, they don't want anyone to tell them what to do. GS: All ten in one room? PS: Yeah, sometimes we had plant managers that didn't want to sit next to each other, and I had to spend three, four days with them talking about the problems they had, the things we had to do and everything. So we spent three days arguing, and the 4th day I'd break down the action plan that they were never going to do, and then I had to follow up on it. But that's the way it was. It's true that in any industry you're in, you get more than two people, you've already got too many beings. That's the way it is. GS: You said before that you got married straight out of college? PS: Yeah, I got engaged and I got married two weeks out of college. GS: Was that a normal thing? PS: At that time yeah, a lot of guys in my class were getting married before they graduated, most people were married by the time they were 25. IW: So how old were you when you got married? PS: 23, my wife was only what? She had just turned 20, and my wife was from Poland, but she was Ukrainian. Unfortunately, she passed away 10 years ago but she was Ukrainian and I met her through a next-door neighbor at the house over here because it was her uncle and he sponsored him to come from Poland, they lived in the same, believe it or not, it's funny because her parents and my father's parents lived two houses apart in south eastern Poland. They used to be Poland/Ukraine and after the war they decided they wanted to move people around, they moved my wife's family from where they were in Southeast all the way to Germany in the West Side. They relocated a lot of people because what is happening is when the Germans came in they took over most of everything, you see on television with Jewish people, they came in and took everything from them, it was really true and there were a lot of Jewish people in Ukraine and also in Poland and those people lost it all, and after the war they got that back but they didn't give that back to the Jewish people, her parents ended up in a house that used to be Jewish. And near the German border, and she was 16 when she came over, and I met her fell in love and married her. GS: When did you have your first kiss? PS: Uhm, 1970 GS: Oh, and also you graduated in college in 1969 and you also took a trip with your dad in 1969? PS: Yeah, just before my wedding, actually took time off from school. He wouldn't go alone. I wasn't that interested in going and when I went there it wasn't really a great time, because I used to smoke then and every time I reached into my pocket everyone got up because they thought I was throwing money at them, so that's the gut truth. Because they thought, money grew on trees and at that time when we used to go it was not true of us, anybody went back, even sometimes today, they expect you to bring you a lot of gifts and money that what the expectation was and while you were there you paid for everything for them, for the whole family we had a big reunion one night before we left for home, and there must have 70, 80 people, we paid for everything? IW: Was this because of the idea that they thought that like Americans had a lot of money that grows on trees? PS: Yes absolutely, there was women, the men would take, where we were in Poland where my grandfather lived, we were right near where they made crystal, you know crystal? And they made all kinds of bowls and that kind of stuff sugar bowls and all that. We wanted to bring crystal back because it's very good crystal, we didn't want perfect stuff because that's really expensive, but they have stuffed that a little bit chipped, but you can't see it, we went to the factory and that were we bought up and they found out we were interested in it so all the men rushed, they were stealing their wives sugar bowls and bringing it to my grandfather's house. And it was nice enough we bought it we bought a lot of stuff, then the woman started coming in all upset, and we gave them all back GS: Well that's nice of you at least. PS: Well it wasn't really nice what the husbands did. IW: Wait, so you bought all these sugar bowls and you gave it away. PS: We gave it back to these people, because she came and say that's mine GS: Did you get your money back? PS: No! GS: What? PS: No, it wasn't fair what they did but it wasn't expensive, we were only talking four, five dollars. Okay, the big bowls maybe 50, 60 dollars and they are probably worth four, five hundred dollars here. The stuff we brought was small stuff. We said we'll take it. IW: Four or five dollars might have been more to them than it is to you here, inflation exchange rates PS: Oh at that time 4, 5 dollars was a lot of money. You were getting 150 Zloty to every dollar and that was their dollar, the Zloty. So when we had the get together it cost us 150 bucks, it was an incredible night, we had a band and everything. Money went a long way there. And that the other reason they thought we were so rich, because they thought that our dollar went as far as our dollar in their country, and it didn't! Not even close ha ha! GS: So your expectations for America or I guess your parents’ expectations, were they met? PS: Yeah, absolutely, It's the greatest country in the world, I to me I carry the same pride that my father did. IW: So you have a German Citizenship, right, you still have it? PS: No no I was a German citizen but when I became a US citizen I uh don't have the uh. IW: You didn't have a dual citizenship? PS: I could if I wanted to apply for it, I don't need it, what do I need it for. IW: German citizenship, it's the best passport to have in the world for traveling. PS: I traveled all around the world with American passport it was okay. I did a lot of traveling for my company so I did a lot of traveling. GS: You said your father instilled like other things in you? PS: Yeah, a couple of things, for one thing honesty, because uh, he worked in business and he got stiffed quite a few times because he was building and they had to pay him and they wouldn't pay him and he had to wait wait wait and try to get the money back and there were some times with deals and somebody promised one thing and it didn't work out and he always told me one thing in business " don't ever lie but don't always tell the truth" You don't have to tell them everything he said, but don't lie. Soon as you lie, the very first time you are never going to trust anybody because you think they will do the same thing if you think about it. The other thing is that this country we came to here he says you have to vote and pay taxes and have to respect his country because it is the greatest place in the world and he also said education, I worked with him, he was a builder and worked with him in the summers, I was twelve years when I started it and I hated it. He says this is why you are working with me, to go to school and get a better job, which is what I did. GS: Exactly, so there were no child labor laws yet or were there? PS: Pardon me? GS: So you were working at 12 years old, there were no child-- PS: Oh there were child laws but nothing was enforced, now everything, they try to enforce everything, in today's world it doesn't make a difference whatever country, we have more ways in capacity and force! It's true there's a law for everything. But. they paid me next to nothing, because there were only three of us working together at that time and most of the time I was looking for the tools because that what carpenters do, they could not find their tools because they leave it in one room, when they are working and go to another room and cannot find it again, my life was spent finding their tools, the other half building bricks I had to mix the mortar, and deliver the bricks on the scaffolding to continue the building. IW: So your father was coming from a country where you couldn't really be politically active, so how did he react to being in a whole new country where he is free to vote, free to-- PS: It took him a long to be comfortable with it because especially in Ukraine, it wasn't as bad remember Poland was a satellite country, Ukraine was directly under Russian rule. Polish, some people actually owned stuff, okay, in Ukraine there wasn't anybody who owned anything. They were used to a totally different life, and in fact, okay, in the communist countries like Ukraine people actually spited each other. What you read about and heard about is absolutely true. A neighbor would say "hey this guy is not a communist because he is communicating with his sister in the United States and is saying bad things about us". So, they turn him in -- disappear. GS: Oh my god! PS: Yeah in fact when my mother tried to establish with her brother relationship, the one that was alive, I tried, and he'd tell us I'm part of communist party please do not communicate with me anymore because I'll get in trouble. And so we never communicated with him and he died. Yeah that's the way it was in Ukraine, in Poland it was a little better, so when he came here voting was very foreign to him, if you got to vote, anything like a vote it was only one candidate, one party one candidate. So, they were a little confused first when they came here. But, I guess that was because he was so confused about voter too because he says the first time in his life he had the chance to choose but if, whether it did any good or not was not important, the important part was that you could cast a vote for who though would be most appropriate leader, in fact, a lot of them came over there. The funny part is, my wife's mother, my bushka -- the last bushka we had, she was a real -- a real character. She called me up one time, after the election, it was two days after the election. You know what? "They called me from the voting place" she says and they asked me to come down. I said oh they did? Why? She says "they needed one more vote for Bush to win, and they picked me, so I went down and voted Bush president. She really believed it! Yeah, she was exercising the right to vote and guess what? She made a big difference. It's a funny story. It's true she really believed it. I never told her it wasn't true. GS: I just have random question; do you have any artifacts from your family or native country that hold any meaning to you? PS: Well actually, the only -- well I got one thing from my father here -- this anchor (indicates anchor necklace) see this uh GS: Anchor? That's from your father? PS: That's all he left me and he left me this and this my wife bought for me this cross, and she's gone and this my mother bought for me so I carry this wherever I go. But the only things they had were wedding rings, the wedding rings were metal, they didn't really leave me anything you can called "passed down" or anything. There was nothing of value. GS: What did you bring? Do you remember anything specific that you brought in that box from Ukraine to America? PS: Oh, you mean Germany to America? The only thing I remember is the box my father brought because we used it as a table, I don't really remember much of what was in there because it was just clothes basically, that all we brought. There wasn't any German money in there because after the war, the money that he made, that made him so rich, was worth nothing after the war. He said that after the war you would have to take a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. GS: Oh yeah I've seen pictures of that. IW: It's called hyperinflation. PS: And it was true. It got that bad because it got totally devalued and was worth nothing. IW: The German mark was it? PS: Yeah, the German mark. GS: Do you remember feeling poor? PS: Huh? GS: When you were a kid do you remember feeling like you had less? Or like were you happy? PS: The people I interacted with --- it felt normal -- everything was normal. In fact, those people I work with most of them I work known my whole life. GS: That's amazing! PS: In fact tomorrow, I started -- well 17 years ago I started a little group -- believe it or not a lot of us lived here we all got education all the people went to the church school they all went and we worked and got jobs most of us moved away for at least a portion of our lives, a lot of us came back. Right back to Binghamton. We have been fishing together for 35 years. My best friends are right down stairs. GS: That you have known your whole life? PS: Yeah, I and I have a little group that we get together tomorrow, right underneath this room. It used to be our club -- a club we used to run -- we had alcohol and stuff but we closed that a long time ago. There were 16 of us and we had known each other since we were 5 years old, every one of us, and we all came back. We had all lived sometime in a different city and now we are all back and it's amazing. You know, we meet once a month, we have a meal together, we bullshit, we play cards, and then we drink and enjoy the company immensely. And the interesting part is it is almost impossible for somebody not to show up. They enjoy it so much, including myself, that we make sure that we come. I get almost 100% attendance. Take care of the food -- I take care of the food-- but I have other people do stuff. We have our own logo. We call ourselves UKEBUMS. GS: UKEBUMS? IW: What does that mean? PS: UKE for Ukraine, BUMS for -- there is another group that my best friend in Montreal runs called just BUMS. They are also Ukrainian. BUMS stands for benevolent union of master sportsman, so Ukrainian benevolent union of master sportsmen. It started out fishing but we have guys what our golfers now -- half of them are fishers but then we accepted other people too so there are golfers and a few people who are big into hockey and that kind of stuff but it's sportsmen, kind of cool BUMS. IW: It seems like the church is like the center of social life in this community. The Church was their whole social life, when we were growing up. We were in walking distance, the church was in Binghamton - it was in walking distance and I went to Ukrainian school religion class and --- something we were there all the time -- church -- it was our social network and that how I got to know all these people, we did very well, we all hung together and now were all back together again. IW: It must be a very strong connection if after all those years people still come back to their hometown. PS: Yeah a lot of people come to visit, Christmas and Easter, church is full, people come back. GS: So Binghamton is like your home. PS: It's a home yeah. We grew up. I think I take a lot of pride helping out the church -- to be honest with you -- they're the one who kind of molded me into who I am. My parents had a lot to do with it but the church probably had more to do with it because I spent more of my time there than with my parents. How much time do you spend with you parents anyways? When you're smaller you have no one else to care for you then you're totally dependent. After that-- you know -- so -- these people I spent more time with them than my parents. GS: That's so true for me too. PS: They are lovely people, they all come from the same kind of --- we all have the same kind of principles -- we all love this country we are all very proud Americans. And we are proud of our heritage too. But we are American Ukrainian, not Ukrainian American. GS: I like that. PS: That's what we are. GS: Thank you so much! That's perfect. IW: Right on the hour mark, wow! Thank you! PS: It's been that long, oh my gosh ha ha. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Solecky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Solecky, Peter ; Samaniego, Gabrielle ; Wolf, Isaac Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Solecky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:11 Subject The topic of the resource Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/297e3b31cc26babe5c6393b535a2bf5c.jpeg 865008aa0d68166e13a6b08c62d8ef4a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/528a3022ec88914c59643d1de828479f.MP3 244554363adfb5f4dc91b0a959a67d36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert and JiaJun Zou Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anna Lewkowicz Biographical Text Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 72:03 minutes Date of Interview 6 April 2016 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Language English Material Type audio/mp3 Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnaLewkowicz.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Anna Lewkowicz Interviewed by: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person Transcriber: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 9:54 AM Interview Setting: John the Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Jiajun Zou: So, this is an interview with Mrs. Anna Lewkowicz, and today is April 6, and now is 9 o'clock and 54 minute. And, so to begin, we want to know, can you introduce yourself to us? What is your name, when were you born? Anna Lewkowicz: My name is Anna Lewkowicz. And eh-- Mary Ann Klish (Daughter): Where were you born? AL: I was born in Ukraine. JZ: In Ukraine? AL: Yabluchnyk. MK: It was called "Yabluchnyk." AL: Yabluchnyk, Ukraine. JZ: Yabluchnyk? In Ukraine, um-hum. What year were you born? AL: April 9, 1923. JZ: 1923. um-hum-- And, what we want to know is, so you were born in Ukraine, when did you immigrate to the United States? AL: Um-um-- I first -- I first came to Germany. I worked up there for five years; then my sister, she was here in United States, and she sent me paper-- to come here. JZ: How old were you at the time? AL: I was-- MK: When she came in nine--, she came August of 19? AL: I was nine-- eight-- MK: 1947. AL: Yes. JZ: 1947? So after World War II? AL: Um-hum-- MK: Right, so she is part of-- Do you know that history? So she was in forced labor camp in Germany-- JZ: That must be a very difficult history for her. MK: Yeah, yeah, she left home in '42 and-- at the time they were, the Germans were snatching people right from their homes to help because all the German men were fighting the war, and they wanted workers to manage the farms, etc. So, they decided instead of being snatched, because they eventually go anyway, they volunteer-- So my mother and her girlfriend and my mother's cousin who is in this history book. And I have to show you the story about it, because it is the same story. Yeah, but they, they volunteer and end it up in different villages not far from each other in Germany. JZ: Right. So why did you choose America to be the place to immigrate? Is this-- So, why is it this country? AL: Yeah, because my sister has immigrated here and brother. Then she asked me if I can come here-- JZ: Right. AL: Then I come here-- MK: Another interesting aside, my grandparents, my mother's' parents came here to this country and were working in the coal mines in the Pennsylvania area. But the time that they came was during the Depression, so they work there for a couple of years and thought that this is worse than where we came from (Daughter laughed). RP: Yeah. MK: And they end up going back, but in the meantime, my aunt was born here and my uncle. So when they all went back, her brother and sister were citizens. So then they ultimately got here and that's how they were able to bring my mother. Because they were citizens. JZ: Did you, so when you first come here, did you feel comfortable. Is there something you remember at the time, was it a good experience, was it a difficult experience? AL: It was hard because I didn't speak English but the-- I-- It was okay. I lived with my sister. Moved about here, a couple years, then I find a job. JZ: You find your job in? AL: EJ. JZ: In Endicott-Johnson-- RP: Shoe making, shoe making industry? (Everyone: right) AL: I was working upstairs for three years, then I get married-- MK: Then she had me. AL: Yeah-- I had her, and then I-- didn't work in EJ--and then I, another one--boy. So, I stayed here because my husband--husband said you take care--our children, because we have to pay somebody, we didn't have much money to--you know-- pay them for that, you know, they watch children. JZ: Right, so, you-- Did you met your husband in here or--? And how did you meet your husband, he is also working here? AL: Ukrainian picnic? Ukrainian picnic. JZ: Ukrainian picnic? MK: My dad arrived here under the same circumstances. JZ: Same circumstances. MK: He was in a camp and he came from Germany also. He came a year after my mother, he came at 48'. And-- In fact, Migolochok, the guy that went downstairs, his grandmother was my dad's aunt. And she is the one that brought him here. JZ: Right. MK: So, that is how the two of them met at the Ukrainian picnic. JZ: Were you afraid when you first were thinking about coming to America? Like-- so do you know if there is already a lot of Ukrainians in here? AL: Wasn't that much Ukrainian. MK: I will just ask her in Ukrainian because she knows it better. JZ: That is great, that is great. AL: немає, no. MK: No, she wasn't afraid. MK: Because her sister was here and brother. She was not afraid. AL: I live with them. JZ: Um-hum, right. JZ: So when you moved here, is everything similar or entirely different from where you lived in Ukraine? MK: Very different. There were houses everywhere AL: Yeah. MK: She wasn't used to that. AL: All people are good people. They are all right. They-- and the church was full of people, because all the people, they come to church every day, every Sunday. MK: No, no, no-- I mean-- Your life, not--not the church, you weren't so interested about the church. JZ: I am! Actually. MK: Oh, oh, you are. JZ: Everything you want to share, we are absolutely want to hear it. MK: Oh, okay. JZ: Did you start coming to church? AL: Yeah-- MK: No, no, no, when you start coming to church here, why did you come to this church? AL: Because my sister and brother, they belong here. So I joined-- MK: Actually the church she was going to in Ukraine was a Catholic church JZ: So she changed her religion? Is that correct? MK: Well, she didn't look at it that way. This is how my mother put, she says one God is everywhere, so whether is it this church or that church, what is the difference? So she said if this church was good enough, and of course, it wasn't this church, it was the old church that's just around the corner. JZ: What is that church? Is it Ukrainian Orthodox? MK: It was Orthodox. JZ: So in your mind, no matter Catholic or Orthodox, you can go both as long as you believe in God? AL: Yeah! Some of those-- something happen down there in Catholic Church, I go some there. JZ: Right. Do most Ukrainians feel the same way like you did? Do they feel they can go anywhere? AL: Lots of people came, they went to Catholic Church. JZ: They went to Catholic Church. MK: In fact, um----.not everybody felt that way, because I remember my mother telling me that, there were people in the Catholic church lobbying for my mother to go there. You know they will come, and say, gee, you know you were in a Catholic church over there, why are you going to an Orthodox one here? So my mother said, well because my sister brought me here, and if this church is good enough for her, it is good enough for me. And it wasn't so much about Catholic and Orthodox as it was about going to church, and you know, praying to God, didn't matter. JZ: Right. So--but-- AL: I remember how Czebiniak and the others wanted you to go there-- came to our house, and the-- MK: See there was an actual gentleman from Sacred Heart that came to my mothers'-- AL: And ask me when I am going to come--going to go to the church. JZ: The Catholic Church? AL: Catholic Church-- No, I am going to-- MK: Go where my sister goes-- AL: Yeah my sister goes, I told him. MK: But yeah, back in the day, they did lobby; to them it was a big difference, but never really to my mother. JZ: So when you go to the church, what is it like? Are there just Ukrainians? Were there different kinds of people in the church that you went to? AL: All kind of people. It is Ukrainian and English service. MK: Oh, are you talking about when she first came? JZ: Like the church she went to, is it primarily Ukrainian immigrants? MK: The church she went to here? Or the church she went to in Ukraine? JZ: Um-- Both. AL: And what was it in Ukraine? -- was an Orthodox church, was a Ukrainian--maybe some place was was-- MK: It was a Greek Catholic one, it was a Greek Catholic one in Ukraine that was the one that was in the village. RP: Um-- Did you have any family left in Ukraine when you came to the U.S? AL: Oh yes, I have sister and brother, but they all die. MK: They all die, they've all died since then. JZ: Due to the--German atrocities? Everyone: No, no, no. MK: No, they never were--um, they didn't go to Germany, they were ah--they were older than my mother, I guess they didn't want them (daughter laughed) tell me, I don't know. I know they all die, they all in fact, during the war, my mother's village got burned. And the Polish came during the war time and just burn everything down, so where my mother's family live now was not where she grew up. JZ: Right, it seems that-- So when you moved here right, you--what kind of people do you see in this community? Was it mostly Ukrainian? Were they--. AL: All kinds--.Slavic-- MK: A lot of Slavic people JZ: A lot of Slavic people-- un-hum AL: Polish, Russian--yeah. JZ: un-hum-- Did you feel--? How did you feel about them, and how did they feel about you? Like did they see you--? AL: They don't care. JZ: They don't care. MK: They were your friends? JZ: That's right-- AL: I have, you know, couple friends, they choose here. And some, lots of, you know, people went to Catholic Church. JZ: Right, right-- AL: Polish church, and to me, all friends. JZ: So people were very friendly because you all immigrants here? AL: Yes! JZ: What about people in the town, in Binghamton, were they treating you all welcoming or--. MK: американська (American)-- AL: yeah, they was nice to me, I was working in a factory, as well you know, I didn't speak English. They was very nice to me. They helped me. JZ: That sounds very good. And, so, after you work at EJ--You worked for EJ, Right? AL: Yes. JZ: Where else did you work? So you stay at home, take care of children? AL: Yes. JZ: And your husband was working? AL: Yes, he was working in EJ. MK: And he had two jobs, he was also working. His aunt, they had a restaurant, a bar and a restaurant and he was a bartender on weekends. JZ: Right, so he continued this job-- AL: Hmm-- JZ: For? How-- AL: Two jobs, because I didn't work and he had two children, so-- JZ: Is this something common in Ukraine families? That a woman stay at home, take care of children, husband's working? AL: She said everybody works-- MK: Everybody worked in the farms. JZ: In Ukraine, everyone worked on the farms? MK: Even when my mother was little, she worked. JZ: Right. So, Ukraine community is very different than other communities because both people work. AL: Yeah. MK: Yes, even back then. JZ: So, men and women were treated equally? I assume. MK: Do they men have the same rights as women? AL: I think-- men in Ukraine-- MK: He was the head. AL: -- has more power than women. JZ: Is still the head even though you do the same work? AL: Yes. JZ: -- working in a farm-- AL: un-hum JZ: So when you were in Ukraine, what do you remember now, long time ago when you were a child, what do you remember? Like anything, childhood activities? RP: Memories? AL: I--I went to school, I was 12 or 8. Then--I finished, I have two 4 grades in the school. Because my parents they want me to work in the farms. JZ: They want you to work in the farm. AL: In the farm--un-hum. MK: She doesn't have other than 3rd or 4th grade education that is it for my mother. They want, they pull her out and say that needed her help on the farms, so they--. AL: Yes-- JZ: Right, so is because they need her to work? AL: Oh, yes. JZ: And they cannot afford to have you go to school. MK: No. JZ: Are you the only child in the family? AL: No, my mother had 9-- children. JZ: 9 children-- All of them work in the farm? AL: Three died--no, no, three died. And-- I went here, and all--. I have sister, I, and I have two brother, they stay over there. And they have three, nine Ukraine. They still work in the farm. JZ: So you remember, you were working in the farm-- AL: Oh, yes. JZ: Anything else you think you remember, childhood friends? Anything about-- MK: Did you have stories? AL: No stories. RP: Did you bring anything with you from Ukraine, like objects-- that, brought for memory? AL: No, I don't think so. MK: No, because she was coming from Germany and not from home. AL: Yeah, and-- MK: And at one point they thought when the war ended, they they came and told them you know you don't have to work here in these German farms anymore. So they heard there was a bus that was taking people back to Ukraine, so their intent was to go back to Ukraine. So her and her girlfriend waited because they said this truck or whatever, really wasn't a bus, was a truck, was going to come and take them. So they waiting, and then my mother said a German, I mean..ah, Ukrainian soldier walked by and said girls what you doing here. They said well, they are waiting for this bus that was going to take them back. And they said no, he said, no, don't, don't get on that bus, it's not going take you home, it's Russians that are going to take you to Siberia, so they flooded to the woods, and figured out what were they going to do. AL: Even then, this was-- hard. MK: So she said well, she didn't really want to go back to her German farms because she thought they were kind of mean. So, she went back to her girlfriend's farm and asked could they work, could they continue to work there. And ah-- AL: They say yes! MK: So they continued to work there. AL: We-- We told them what happened, and he said stay here so long you can, and after, you know, soldiers came and says you can work on our farms. MK: It was American soldiers this time. AL: American. MK: And they you, you know, you're done, and that is how she ended it up in the camp. AL: Yeah. MK: And it wasn't a matter of going back, and that is why she didn't have anything (AL: yeah) because she just left with um-- AL: Nothing. MK: Some clothes-- to to work in Germany, it is not like-- she didn't have anything from home. JZ: Right. So, during your early life, you seem not to hate the Russians or Germans, right? Do-- do you think--look at them as if they are a group of people or you just think that people suffer. Did you ever categorize them as, you know, Russians or Poles, or Americans? AL: No-- No-- JZ: You never hate them--as a group. MK: She just thought that it was wartime and-- AL: Yeah. MK: That was just result of war, of the war. AL: Yeah. JZ: That's amazing, because I think a lot people will begin to hate the whole group of people. MK: Oh right, just like the Vietnam War, everybody hated the Vietnamese-- yeah. JZ: So when you were working in the farms, so--um, is that all you remember, like every day you work on the farm--Anything that makes you, um-- What else do you do besides working on the farm? MK: You talking about home or you talking about Germany. AL: Germany? JZ: Um, the time when you were in Ukraine. AL: I--just work. JZ: Just work? Right? RP: Was this work difficult for you? AL: No. RP: No, it's easy, you were laid back? AL: My father and I worked together. RP: Work together. JZ: Did you go to church regularly? AL: Yeah, sometime I don't feel good so I can't go. But most of the time I went. JZ: So, so, did you have any sense of being a Ukrainian or more like being a peasant, someone who work on the farm, did you ever feel a strong sense, I am a Ukrainian! I am-- AL: Yes. JZ: Nationalism-- AL: Yeah, because today, it was not Ukraine, it was Polish. So I went to school, and I learn Polish, read and write, and uh--it was together nice, the Polish and ah, yeah. MK: back then--ah-- No, it was a Polish school. AL: --not Ukraine. MK: Oh, they were in charge. AL: Yes. AL: Polish writing, reading, teacher was, you know teacher was, Po--Polish. JZ: And that is completely okay to you? AL: Yeah. JZ: What about students, they are mostly Ukrainians? AL: No, all was, you know, Po--Polish and Ukraine. MK: Ah, it was mixed? JZ: So people-- it really didn't matter your nationality? AL: No, people just live together--. we were young, doesn't matter. JZ: You also are a senior parish member here in the church, am I correct? MK: Yeah, she is one of the oldest one. Her--all have immigrated, she and her cousin which end it up marrying her girlfriend, the three of them that were in Germany. He is the oldest one. He's, ah, he was 95 in January, but, he started getting dementia, he doesn't leave the house. JZ: How did you become the senior parish member in this church? MK: [laughs] Everybody else die off, everybody else die off [everyone laughs]. JZ: Hehe, everyone respected you right? MK: No, no-- how did you become the oldest parishioner to-- AL: Oh, I was younger, was here all the time, I went to church, same church. RP: So, I am assuming a lot about the church has changed since you first got here? AL: Um. MK: Yes. AL: They changed. JZ: How has it changed? AL: Before was more Ukrainian in the church, now is all English. JZ: Oh, it was more speaking Ukrainian at the time? AL: Yeah. MK: Oh, definitely, it was all Ukrainian. AL: Yeah. JZ: Because they were immigrants or? AL: All people-- came from Europe. MK: The church was started by, the church was started by, I mean when I was little, everything the service was entirely in Ukrainian. It was entirely in Ukrainian, and ah, and our priest at the time, when I was little, had to say, he was ah, he was ah-- he came from Ukraine just like my mother, so he had similar history, you know, so-- yeah it is a good fit. JZ: But you said things have changed over the years? AL: Oh yeah--in the church. JZ: Everyone now speak English? MK: Intermarries-- oh, I can, I tell you this. There, my mother launched a protest here in the church, she and ah--her cousin and her girlfriend, they all end, the three that were in Ukraine, I mean went to Germany, they all end it up here. My mother got here first, and got married, and then the other two couldn't get here until a couple years later. They didn't get here till-- 1950? 1951? AL: 1951. MK: 1951, but they ultimately--ah, all belong to the same church, and they all sing in the choir, which was all entirely Ukrainian, and the church was entirely Ukrainian. Well speaking, you know there was intermarriages, AL: Yeah. That's-- MK: And there were a lot people didn't understand entirely Ukrainian, so our priest we had at the time, the one we had for 40 plus years, wanted to introduce English into the service. And I can remember, like I said, my mother was, my mother sing in the choir with a whole bunch of them and they protested and left the choir because they started introducing English. And they were really upset about it. JZ: When you said intermarriage, you mean between the Eastern European groups or, like Poles, Germans, or who-- MK: Oh intermarrying here? No, just with English-speaking people. RP: In general. MK: Right. They didn't know Ukrainian language. JZ: They didn't know Ukrainian language. And they were the ones who are asking for English. MK: Right. JZ: So how did you feel at the time, you were angry at the time right? AL: Yeah--I was mad because more people, they want English. MK: There was a meeting. AL: Yeah. They were outnumbered. JZ: Oh no-- MK: Yeah, the Ukrainian-speaking were outnumbered. So, I mean, you know, it was ah-- It was fair and square vote, they just didn't like the outcome. So I think with the choir-- (MK laughs) RP: Now, now, how frequently is Ukrainian spoken in the church? AL: Not much now. MK: No. RP: Not much? So, it's been a drastic change since you first got here? MK: It is been gradual, now what happened was it was supposed to be probably the last ten, fifteen years. It was, there was, another vote at an annual meeting and we were supposed to have um-- three weeks of all English and one week of half Ukrainian, half English. JZ: Right. I read this in the St. John's Baptist Orthodox Ukrainian Church website, they say mostly English, but they also want to respect the old Ukrainians. MK: Right, but now there's less Ukrainian. That rule is no longer in play because--and we uh-- In fact my husband just had to do about it a couple years ago because he was the president when that rule was put in place and uh, our new priest here um-- see, my husband's got an opposite vision for my mother. My husband feels that in order for this church to survive, it's got to be English because there's no immigrants that are coming are coming here and it's very unlikely. So he says, you know, in order to keep those happy, and then there's a lot of people that left. They grew up in the church that didn't know any Ukrainian ah-- you know, to try to get them back, you have to keep the English. But um, our priest has a different mindset and I think there's two reasons here. Um, the reason, um, he thinks if we have some Ukrainian in the church, that maybe somebody that comes to visit might you know, it might keep them here. So he's been throwing in things, um, like intermittently during the services-- put in more Ukrainian. JZ: Right. So, what you were angry about is that you don't understand English and you cannot pray because everyone else is speaking English. AL: Yeah, I understand, but not much. JZ: Right, and is the community also, many people speak English? And is the community also becoming more and more English than-- MK: The Church community? JZ: The community where you lived in here, like the Ukrainian community in general. Was it becoming more assimilated? MK: Oh, it's died off. It's died off. Sacred Heart is more Ukrainian speaking that particular church is. And um, you know, this one not as much. I think, if you look at this church and that church I think there's more, I think they may have, they have two services there if I'm not mistaken and they have a Ukrainian one-- AL: All English-- MK: All Ukrainian, and then they have one that's all English. AL: Yes, it's more Ukraine--you know, the service is Ukrainian. MK: But my mother's never been compelled to go there though [MK laughs]. RP: Well, why would you not want to go do the one in Ukrainian if you believe that God is everywhere? AL: Well, I didn't have car, I have to walk. [Everyone laughs]. MK: But if you did would you have gone anyway? AL: No. RP: No? MK: No, you would've stayed here. RP: You're loyal, you consider yourself loyal to this church? AL: Yeah. MK: Yeah, she is. JZ: Even though many things have changed in this church? AL: Yes. MK: Yeah, and she wasn't happy about it, but she still continued to come. JZ: Did you try? Is that the time when you tried to learn English very hard? AL: Well, I went to night school. American Civic Association. They uh-- MK: They had classes. AL: ESL, ESL. Yeah American Civic, yeah ESL. They teach people in English. They came to Ukrainian community or-- MK: And that was my downfall. When my parents were going to classes and they had to become citizens, so they had to take a test. So, um, my brother and I, in fact, when I started school I didn't learn any, I didn't know any English. I just knew all Ukrainian when I started Kindergarten. I mean I, you know, you quickly learn. So I learned and um, so when my brother and I were in grade school we were helping my parents to pass the test. So we spoke all in English and as a result of that we liked the fact that we were speaking English to our parents because previously we didn't. And, um, we felt more like the other kids in school. The fact that we were speaking-- So that was sort of our downfall, so then my parents would continue to speak to us in Ukrainian and we would sometimes answer in English and as we got older it was more and more, so now my brother speaks poorly in Ukrainian, but understands everything. And uh, I'm a little better at it than my brother. AL: Yeah, she-- AL: Yes, she go to Ukraine. MK: Yes, I ended up going to Ukraine. JZ: So, how did you feel about all these changes? So, your children begin to speak more English, um, were you ok with these changes? AL: Yeah. JZ: So, you never pressed them to, you know, keep Ukrainian language. AL: No-- MK: I wish she had. [Laughs]. I wish she had and I would've been, um-- AL: Well you still----Ukrainian. MK: Well I still, yeah, it was ok because she came in with me-- AL: Because the house I talk Ukrainian, not English. JZ: In the house you speak Ukrainian? AL: So, they learn. JZ: So, you mentioned the citizenship test and oftentimes I think nowadays they say you have to give up the loyalty to your home country, right? MK: Mhm. JZ: Did you have to do the same saying that I am no longer Ukrainian, I'm American. Did you have to do that? AL: No, no. Uh uh. RP: No? MK: I'm sure she did but she probably doesn't remember, but to her she's always gonna, her Ukra-- I mean when Ukraine has got all those problems now, it really affected, it really affects her. JZ: It affects her? MK: Yeah! I mean she's really troubled by it, so she's always going to be Ukrainian at heart. JZ: Even though on the paper it must say you're American now! MK: Right, even though-- AL: I read English newspaper, you know. RP: Have you been back to the Ukraine since you first came here? AL: Yes, just once. RP: Just once? When was that? AL: There was not too good because it still was-- MK: Communist, communist and they--When was that? AL: 1980-- MK: In the 80s? JZ: So, you went back to Ukraine in the 80's? AL: Yes, I went up there to see my sister. JZ: Family visit. So you, I think that's a good transition. When you went back how has it different? How has Ukraine itself changed? AL: No-- JZ: You were a child when you were in Ukraine, but when you go back you are much older. AL: Well, we can stay in the house at that time. We can raise a family. MK: You couldn't see the family other than in the Russian hotel. It was all Russified. Everything. JZ: Russified? MK: Mhm. It was all, uh, it was basically Russia. That's what I remember her telling me. She wanted to go, the whole purpose of the visit was to see her family. And the family had to come to the hotel. Family couldn't go, but what they did was, they snuck there. AL: Yes, they took taxi. MK: They found somebody and of course the taxi was somebody that they paid off. Someone had a car and they took them to the village. But I mean, it was always like looking over your shoulder nervous. AL: We said maybe, four five hours, we have to go in the hotel. JZ: Were you scared? Were there people there scared of this communism and anything? AL: No, no. Well, there was scared to, you know, be protest. JZ: There were protests? AL: Yes. MK: What? AL: Speaking Ukrainian. MK: They were afraid of the Russians, but they didn't protest. [Speaking Ukrainian]. They were, you know, they were weak. My mother used the wrong word there. JZ: So, you see them as Russians more than--? AL: Yeah. JZ: So they're not like Soviets, Communists, but more as a different people. The Russians trying to change-- MK: Well, she calls them "communists," the "communists" [All laugh]. JZ: But you use the word "Russified." MK: Right, they're still communists now. JZ: How has--How has Ukraine been Russified? MK: Well--for me when I went back, and that was in the 90's, I went to the capital of Ukraine and my brother and I--my brother was, went to be a godfather to one of my cousin's kids and his wife didn't want to go because she was born here and doesn't know a word of English -- Ukrainian I mean (laughs)-- So I went with my brother and the biggest thing that I noticed, I was in the capital of Ukraine and I went into a store and I didn't understand what the heck the lady was saying (all laughed) because she was talking all in Russian. I thought well how could this be? This is the capital of Ukraine. How could people be talking in Russian? But that's what it is. JZ: Right. RP: That's interesting. JZ: So, everything, most people in Ukraine, were speaking Russian? MK: Other than the family, yeah and most everybody else was like, well yeah. JZ: Right. MK: You had to really listen, I mean Ukrainian and Russian are similar, but I mean I had difficulties. You know, navigating the city just because of, you know the language. I'm thinking, well, hey, it's Ukraine, I know Ukrainian, no problem. JZ: Right. So, you mention language, so, what else can tell somebody is Ukrainian. So, when you go back you see people speak Russian, but can you find other traits that might show, oh I know, this is a Ukrainian! Is there some other ways you can identify somebody as Ukrainian? The way they food, for example, or culture, customs-- RP: Mannerisms? MK: How did you know that they were Ukrainian and not Russian? AL: They talk Ukrainian. JZ: They talk Ukrainian-- AL: More, they talk more Russian than Ukrainian, but they was Ukrainian people. Girls in a store-- JZ: So they, so, besides language do they dress a certain way? Like, do they, um, greet people a certain way? Like, is Ukrainian culture something different from Russians? MK: They look the same. [laughs] Now that, uhh, everybody's trying to, they're all trying to get Americanized, you know, they're um--the interesting thing is style is a big deal for people in Ukraine because I know we send packages there and my mother would send packages of things that she thought--you know, she thought--. You know, my mother had a different--before she went there she had a different conception of, you know, she left when the place, when everything was really poor and people had no clothes. Like, she said she had very little clothing, and she shared shoes with her sister and all that. So then she was sending packages, she was sending clothes and she was thinking well, you know, anything they get is going to be wonderful. So my mother would spend all this money on sending all these packages and wasn't until we went there, my brother and I, and we said, "Well, hey look, these people are more stylish than, you know like, my cousins were more stylish than I was-- they wouldn't just wear any jeans, it had to see Lee or it had to say this that or the other." They were like label conscious which just blew me away because I thought, you know, here, different? So in other words--they-- even though my family came from a village, and they worked from Lviv which is the biggest city near there, they didn't want to look like a villager--You know, they want to to, so like some of the clothes, probably most of which my mother was sending, I don't even think they wore, like my cousin and that. JZ: What year was that? MK: Um-- my mother was sending--Uh, you know, late 90's she was sending packages, you know, but I'm saying the last--Um, oh probably five or six years ago she was sending packages, but it was mostly to her brother and sister, of course they're gone, and her sister-in-law they've all passed away since then. So, my mother doesn't send anything anymore. JZ: What were you sending? AL: They want money. JZ: They wanted money? I think that happens to every immigrant community. AL: If you send money, hundred dollars, you have to pay another two hundred. Through postage. MK: Well, it wasn't postage, it was through an agency where they actually delivered the money to the person and make sure that--because there's so much corruption in Ukraine that there were some packages um-- I don't know, did we lose one package? We might've lost one because of the corruption, just the post office, and some of the letters my mother would send money in envelopes, letters, and the letters never got there because I think the people in the post office or whatever were corrupt. And so my mother just send money through an agency where you had to pay up front for them to-- I forget what it was. AL: They deliver to the house. MK: They delivered right to the house. JZ: You always remember people in like your family in Ukraine and always send them money and packages? MK: Always. AL: I don't send now. I don't send now. MK: Well, right, because they're all gone. When they were alive my mother did. Interestingly enough, she did, but her two brothers that were here, did not. JZ: Because they were not able to or--? MK: No, they were better off than my mother. I think she was more connected to the situation because she was here after them. Although, no, my um, younger brother did come after her, but he just was not tied to the family he's just sort of the black sheep. But my mother still had because she remembered and she knew how she left them, they were poor and whatever, and now she's got this great life here and she knows that they don't. So yeah, it affected my mother more than it affected them. JZ: Right, so one thing we talk about how you have immigrated here and you seem to like the experience, right? Everything is getting better? AL: Mhm. JZ: Uh, anything you encounter that you may not like? Like, is there anything difficult that you remember? Were you ever discriminated against? MK: Was there any bad times? AL: I do think so. JZ: You don't think so? I'm very glad to hear. [All laugh] AL: Much better than up there. MK: I'm trying to think if there was anything bad-- JZ: It's ok if there isn't because it's very important-- MK: No, there really isn't. RP: How has like the--community outside of the church changed or gotten better? JZ: You mean like-- RP: Yeah, the community outside of the church. Binghamton in general. MK: Johnson City in general--What's changed? Like in Johnson City or in Binghamton. JZ: Jobs moved out? Robert: Yeah different jobs that people have had, stuff like that. AL: I think uh, some people get, hard to get jobs. JZ: Hard to get jobs? Oh. MK: Yeah, that's why her grandchildren all left. AL: Yeah. MK: All my kids. AL: Yeah. JZ: So-- What kind of jobs were the Ukrainian communities doing? So, you mentioned Endicott-Johnson shoe making. What else is there for Ukrainian--? AL: IBM. JZ: IBM? AL: Yeah, they make like-- JZ: Computer software. MK: But what my mother-- The other component of my mother's life, she was with us up until the time we went to school and when my brother and I went to school my mother became a cleaning lady. JZ: Cleaning lady? MK: So she went to various homes. How did you find these jobs? JZ: That's a great question. MK: You knew somebody that was, right? AL: Some my friends work and they knew those people wanted-- MK and AL: Cleaning lady. JZ: Who were you working for? Was it American family? AL: American family. The family was Jewish. They was nice to me. Um-- MK: The rest were uh-- American born. AL: Yeah, lawyer, doctor-- JZ: Right, so--I know you mentioned this, you mentioned you don't really force your children, you don't force your daughter for example, to learn Ukrainian or be Ukrainian in certain ways. So, how do you raise your children? In general, do you just let them do whatever they want? Or do you have certain rules for your children? RP: Was it in a Ukrainian fashion? Like was it in the way that your parents raised you, or did you raise her differently since you-- MK: Did you raise us like you were raised? JZ: Yeah that's what we're asking-- AL: Yeah--I don't think so. MK: How was it different than when you were raised? AL: We didn't have any money. We can't buy clothes, nice clothes, nothing like that. And um, so, was not too good. JZ: Not too good-- AL: Mhm. But, my family, Mary Ann, she you know, she start working, school. She buy herself clothes, nice clothes, yeah. RP: Was it satisfying to see that, uh, you know, the improved lifestyle that your daughter got to have compared to you? AL: Uh huh, uh huh, yes. You know, better than me. MK: I guess the goal was to give us a better life than they had but I will tell you one thing, I wanted to go to college and my father thought that paying for a female to go to college was a waste of money. JZ: Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is-- MK: Common thing. JZ: Common thing. RP: Right. MK: Yeah because he thought you're going to get married, you're going to have kids, and it's you know, money's going to go down the drain. It was a waste and um yeah, it was more important for my brother to get the education or whatever. Although I did do better than him in school. [All laugh] JZ: I'm very glad to hear. What is your position on this? Did you think of your daughter like the way her father think of--? AL: I wasn't against, I wanted Mary Ann to go to college. JZ: Wow. Do you want to empower your daughter to--? AL: Mhm. Uh huh. Same with my son. JZ: Same thing with your son? AL: Mhm. JZ: Did you-- AL: Didn't have that much money, but they went you know, small college. MK: Yeah, we went to Broome. JZ: And you have to work to pay-- AL: I was work. MK: Yup, she worked five days a week. AL: Yeah. MK: House cleaning. AL: My husband work two jobs. MK: And he worked two jobs and then he got a job from EJ's he got a job at GAF, and Ansco Film. JZ: How did EJ treated you? I heard they built a lot of houses and hospitals. AL: Oh yeah, they did. JZ: They treated you very well? How was it, like, everything in your life taken care of? MK: My mother always said very positive things about Endicott Johnson and about the Johnson family. JZ: Mhm. MK: That they were good people. Although we did not have an EJ home, um, all of the homes over here mostly on the north side were EJ homes. AL: And they help lots. MK: And there was an EJ medical. I mean our life really revolved around Endicott Johnson. Because I can remember walking to the EJ medical for -- um doctor visits with my mother and my brother and uh yeah it was EJ medical and-- JZ: That's amazing. MK: Yeah. JZ: Because oftentimes we hear workers don't like the employers, the employers treated workers badly, but EJ seems the exception. AL: Well, yeah EJ they treat nice people, workers. JZ: They treat workers nicely-- AL: They build houses, they didn't charge them which was uh--um not much. JZ: Mhm. Um, you-- AL: Medical was free. JZ: Right, and you, did you spend a lot of time saving money, to send your daughter to school? AL: Well, yes. We didn't, we can, you know-- Pay for--after school they you know, they still have to pay, they pay themselves. JZ: They pay for-- MK: Yeah, we had jobs. JZ: Do you and your husband disagree on things. Like just the daughter going to college. Anything else? AL: Uh-- We was--advantage that they go to college. JZ: Mhm. MK: Although, like I say, you know, my father wasn't upset that I was going, but he did make that comment to me, little know, yeah you know I'm sending you but it's going to be a waste. RP: Right. [All laugh] JZ: Is that something common in Ukrainian families? MK: Um, I just think for the-- RP: First generation. AL: First generation, immigrant families, yeah. You know, money was tight, you know, they're trying to figure out financially how this is all going to work out and he's saying, "you know, if you didn't go it wouldn't be such a bad thing. You're going to get married and have kids and the education is going to go down the drain." That was sort of his mental thought there. JZ: Right, so do most Ukrainian children have the same experience like yours? Like is it very similar? Do you remember any-- do they not go to college or do they end up working for EJ as well? MK: Well, like Mary Harder, she didn't go to school. Not everybody went to college. Um most of them did. Um, most of them did and just because I think, um, we had a community college here, Broome, and it was sort of affordable, so to speak. And really anybody could go if they went part time and had part time jobs like I did. You know I-- JZ: Right. MK: So-- JZ: And did you ever feel more like American? So one thing people say is, people get assimilated and no one can feel the same way their parent immigrants feel. So, did you ever feel conflicted about it? So did you ever notice anything that your children was different about you? Like, do they say, do they say things that you consider-- AL: They, uh, more education. JZ: More education-- AL: They, uh-- MK: I never felt um, I can remember--I mean back then there was no sideline activities, um-- When I was little most everything revolved around the church. JZ: Everything revolved around church-- MK: Uh, one thing I remember when I was little, all my girlfriends had--they were Saturday bowling leagues and I wanted to be in that so bad just because my girlfriends did, but I didn't have the money, so I asked my parents and they said no this is when we clean. So uh, you know, stuff like that you notice it. Other people had more money than you and we had different opportunities, I mean we never had a TV until I don't know when and my father didn't get a car until--you know, we walked everywhere. JZ: Right, did you marry someone who is also Ukrainian? MK: Yes. JZ: So is that something common Ukrainian children-- MK: Um-- Probably not, I want to say, I met him in the church here, but um, for instance my brother he met his wife in college and she wasn't Ukrainian. JZ: So were you comfortable--sorry-- were you comfortable with your children marrying someone not Ukrainian or something most parents felt ok about-- AL: Most have to go, I not say nothing to my son. His wife is not Ukrainian. And she's nice-- JZ: And does not speak Ukrainian-- AL: She is not Ukrainian. She's very nice person. JZ: Sorry? AL: She's very nice person. JZ: She's a nice person-- AL: I was not against. MK: No, she was not against. JZ: Right, I think in your--it seems like in your life it's very individual, everything's personal, like you don't really force your children to marry Ukrainian. AL: No-- MK: Mhm-- JZ: No? MK: No, my mother's probably the exception to the rule. I can think of other Ukrainians that we knew where that was not the case. JZ: Do you recall any of them? Like any relatives who-- MK: Ah-- It's interesting, it's mostly, not in this church, but I want to say in Sacred Heart, they were more-- I want to say nationalistic, always more nationalistic, when was that -- Right, they were-- I know one person, and she is a Sacred Heart, her daughter married a non-Ukrainian about-- JZ: She was very upset? MK: Very upset about it! RP: It seems like the church community here in St. John is very close-knit, because you consider you met your husband here MK: Uh-hum. So, so would you consider just the Ukrainian community in general to be close-knit; are you guys friendly with the other churches? JZ: Oh yeah, is that your community outside the churches as well? MK: Yes, yes. JZ: So Catholic, and-- MK: Yeah. I mean, you know, we meet them, it is a media RP: A clip? MK: Yeah it is a media clip. Definitely. You know everybody in the community sort of speak-- JZ: Even though you go to different church? MK: Right, even though we go to different churches, there are churches under the Pope, you know, doesn't really matter. You know, years ago, it did matter. JZ: How is it--? MK: Like when my mother first came here it did matter. And you know, like I said, they tried to steer people over there, because, but then the interesting thing happen when Orthodoxy celebrated the thousand year, and I think all the Ukrainian that were here that were Catholic realized that Orthodoxy was in Ukraine longer than Catholicism. It was like a light bulb went off, it was like, oh--you know, and when it was like, they didn't realize, you know we weren't like a second-hand religion, hahaha--. You know, it is almost that way you couldn't-- You know, but I can remember Catholics, it was a whole different mindset, I can remember my girlfriend telling me-- She was a Catholic, I met her in high school, she couldn't--If she went to another church, it was like a sin! JZ: Like a sin to whom? Who's thinking it as another sin? MK: Well, right, to a Catholic! It will be a sin to a Catholic! If they go to another church, it will be like sinful! AL: She had to con--confess. MK: You had to confess. [Everyone laughs]. RP: Really? MK: You had to confess, this was sinful! Yeah. JZ: It's Christian church. MK: This was my girlfriend who was not Catholic, but she was brought up in Johnson City here and that was her thing; that is crazy! JZ: I was thinking, so we were talking about intermarriage, and you said you are really open to your children-- as long as it is nice person, right, so does that mean that in Ukrainian community, eventually nobody speaks Ukrainian language if this keeps happening, is that something you ever thought about? Or is it something that you are just open-minded to? AL: No, No. JZ: You never thought about it. MK: Right, she never really-- JZ: So, children of Ukrainian and somebody else is still an Ukrainian. AL: Yeah. JZ: Do you treat them just like an Ukranian-- AL: Yeah. JZ: That's amazing. AL: Yeah. JZ: Do they have to speak Ukrainian to be an Ukrainian? AL: I don't think so -- they have to. JZ: You don't think so? AL: No. MK: No, I mean, my mother seen so much--so many changes, you know, it is even funny for her, well I mean, she is 93, so she is even mixing, when she speaks in Ukrainian, she throws in some English words, it is really comical, because she is sort of--haha. AL: Yeah. MK: She's been here so long that--It's ah -- JZ: Because culturally she is used to different cultures? MK: Because she's been here so long, whereas like our priest, he is been here, you know, less, you know--he, he is newer from Ukraine than say my mother, and so he doesn't, when he speaks English, he speaks English, when he speaks Ukrainian, he speaks Ukrainian. But my mother mixes things up now because, wow, I think part of it is age too. JZ: We going to finish this in about 7 more minutes, we finish in exactly 11 o'clock. I think we have made a lot of progress so far, is there anything else you want to share with us, do you feel something you want to tell us? RP: Do you have any memories, anything about the church? Your childhood? JZ: With these years you spent here in Binghamton--in this church, um-- anything significant you remember that might be important to your life? MK: My mother tells a lot stories about Ukraine, and I was just trying to remind her about, you know, she forgets a lot of stuff. She has told me a lot, so you going to have to hear it through me, but--being, when she was little, everything revolved around the church, because there was nothing else other than working. You know on the farm. But--holidays, holy days were big deals there, you will go from one church, if one church celebrated um-- was named after like-- like renunciation, or whatever was named after, a holy day, when that holy day came, it was like they had a big celebration in that particular church. And everybody from the surrounding area churches will go there, and will be a big deal, it will be a big celebration, everybody will stop working and go there. JZ: When you say everybody, you mean Ukrainians? MK: Right, the Ukrainians in the community. And surrounding villages. My mother were tell me that a neighboring village will -- AL: Blessed water. MK: Right, when they blessed water. That was the baptism of ah-- wow, it was the baptism, so what they did in the villages there was there was a river--and the river will, ah, will freeze every winter, and they will carve out a cross out of river. My mother said they were all, they weren't even have shoes, but they tide clothes on their feet, were all head to this big celebration, and they will all be by the river, and the priest will bless the water, and they will carve this cross out of the river, and they will go for, they walked miles to go to this thing, and-- AL: Nobody have cars! We all have to walk there ourselves (everyone laughed). It was cold, we don't-- you know. JZ: Binghamton is cold. RP: It's Ukraine. MK: No, no, I am talking about Ukraine. This is Ukraine. This is Ukraine. AL: Yeah. JZ: Oh, oh, okay. MK: She was telling me stories, and most everything church-related. You know, other than you know, personal things about growing up, but everything, you know, going to another church, celebrating with the villagers, various things. JZ: So, it seems like people were drawn together more because of religion than really ethnicity? MK: Yes. JZ: So, when you come here-- I saw some videos in St. John Baptist's website, I saw children dancing. I was wondering, did you participate in one of those? Like 1970s, 80s, like the church children dancing? MK: No she didn't. Adults didn't, it was for children. I did! JZ: You did! MK: They sent me--um, it was-- there was Ukrainian classes, religious classes, and there were dancing classes. JZ: What were you celebrating at the time? You celebrating some church holidays or Ukrainian traditions? Or-- RP: Or holidays? MK: Ukrainian traditions. We would always had a picnic and we would highlight our culture, and um-- I can remember before my parents had a car, we lived a few blocks from here, so I can remember getting dressed up in my Ukrainian costume, and walking down here, drive here to come to this church to dance at that festival. And my girlfriend would said, were you embarrassed, looking like that? I never was. I dressed up, and my brother at I waked down-- RP: A pride? MK: Yeah, we really did. RP: You are proud of your heritage? MK: I was very proud, and one of things, hey I can do something you guys can't do. You don't know anything about this, but I do, you know, I was proud of it. RP: Was it nice for you to see that, your daughter took much pride in your heritage even though, you know, she was born in the US? Was that something you took pride as well? To see your daughter kind of want to follow the footsteps? Even though-- AL: Sure. JZ: Your experience, is it something unique? Do most Ukrainian children here, do they have similar beliefs like yours, do they somehow just forget about it? Or people have different ideas-- What do you think? MK: Well--.. Some of it have to do with the way they were brought up, I mean some parents really didn't care and didn't instill the culture, and those kids kind of went off and you don't hear from them, and they don't celebrate anymore, whereas me--ah -- JZ: What makes you think you want to keep this heritage? MK: I instill it in my children. It is an example right there, I got three children. All over, one in Syracuse, one in Alexandria, Virginia, one in Chicago. And my daughter in Syracuse married a Polish guy, but her kids are in the Ukrainian dance group. She signed them up. JZ: How did-- sorry-- how did you feel so much about being Ukrainian when your mother is not forcing you to be an Ukrainian? That is amazing. MK: How am I? Ah-- It is part of who I am, yeah, it is part of who I am. Yeah, I celebrated. And I am proud of it, definitely proud of it. I instill in my kids even though my son is not a church goer. JZ: Any final thoughts that you might want to share with us? Is there anything you feel important that we have not discussed? So anything else--. AL: No--. JZ: I think we have learned a lot interesting thing about you. RP: Absolutely. JZ: This is an amazing experience. MK: Yeah, my mother is sort of--ah--because she has been here so long, she has assimilated. JZ: Assimilated? MK: Hehe, she is definitely assimilated. She still holds a lot of things, she ah-- AL: Keeps the traditions, um--. MK: She definitely keeps the traditions. JZ: Keeps the traditions? MK: Right, holy days and all that-- JZ: Ukrainian food? Music? MK: Definitely, Ukrainian food, Ukrainian music, definitely Ukrainian culture, my mother reads Ukrainian newspapers still and she keeps in touch with Ukrainian lives back. JZ: So I think one more thing that is important to talk about, so when you went back to Ukraine right, so you went back to Ukraine in 1980s? MK: Yes. JZ: Have you visited Ukraine before? MK: I was, I was there in the 90s. JZ: Do they think of you as Ukraine or as American, do they think of you like that? MK: My family? JZ: Like people in Ukraine, do they-- community as a whole, do they ever think of you as one of their own, or like Americans--Do they -- MK: My family thought that--definitely-- JZ: Americanized? MK: Definitely Americanized. It was kind of like-- I will share this, probably shouldn't. JZ: Oh please, go ahead, hehe? MK: When I go back, I was so excited to see my family-- But I felt they were excited to see me not so much as to see me and how are you whatever, but what did you bring me-- I got that, I got that very distinct impression, so when I came back and I told my mother, and said, you know-- I would love to go back to Ukraine, but I wouldn't like to go see family. And she was horrifying by that. RP: Yeah. MK: And I said, I just got the feeling like, yeah it is nice to see you, but-- JZ: What did you bring -- MK: What did you bring me? Because there is just such a definitely difference between our lives and their lives--ah -- JZ: I think your mother mentions that too. MK: Even though we are same bloodline, it is just everybody--my mother always said that they think, you know, money grows on trees here. RP: Right. MK: You know-- JZ: Even though you are hardworking everyday-- MK: Right, we brought my cousin here a few years ago AL: It was 10 years-- MK: Oh, it was ten plus years ago. It was my mother's brother's son came here, and he lived with my brother, who didn't--my brother doesn't have any kids, whatever, he--um, he couldn't believe that my brother will get up at 5 a.m. and get ready for work, and go to work and put it a full day, I mean he thought that he came here, and it was just going to be a party. JZ: Money grows on trees. MK: Right, money grows on trees, and it was like party times for my brother and him that they were going to have all these time together--My brother says, wow, I work, I only get two weeks' vacation a year, and this is my life, wow, I think he got a real education because he thought like hey, life was good. And what we realized there was, even though I was there in the 90s, my relatives were still living under Communism, they were--in fact, my one cousin drove us around, and he went, they still have a sort of like collective farm on the property there, even though like I said Ukraine was supposed to be "Free." JZ: Under Soviet Union? MK: You know, haha. He went to this collective farm and stole gas to put-- my brother and I were so nervous, like he is ripping off gas of from this place so he can drive us around, but, but, he thought nothing happen. It was like they owe me. They owe me. JZ: They owe you--? MK: That was his feeling, you know, these were just Communists anyway, they are ripping us off, and we going to rip them off. MK: I mean a totally, totally, totally different life then like I said, I went there, wasn't like we are so glad to see you, oh my god, it is our flesh of blood, whatever, okay--. nice to see you, but what do you got in that suitcase? RP: Yeah. MK: It just shows-- the, sort of like time work, they still back in the Communist, even though-- JZ: Also, the image of America! RP: Yeah, the American dream. MK: It still lives today, it really does. JZ: You feel the same way as your daughter feels about? People in Ukraine? AL: Yeah-- MK: Yeah, she knows it. Just by virtue of--wow, I think the same thing happen to her over there, but it was really brought into focus when I was there. JZ: Do you plan to go back to Ukraine anytime soon in the future? MK: Wow. When it is safer [laughs]. JZ: Wow, thank you so much for this amazing interview, I am very glad to meet you. RP: I appreciat it. JZ: I hope you have a very nice day. MK: Wow. It was a pleasure! JZ: Thank you, I wish you drive safely home and have a good day! MK: We lived up the street, hehe. JZ: Oh, you lived up the street! (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Lewkowicz Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewkowicz, Anna ; Zou, Robert ; Zou, JiaJun Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Anna Lewkowicz.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 72:03 Subject The topic of the resource Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c6e6e039fa2e63eb99318b3e3224a102.jpeg 3de3f6acae74084ef2a291834e526c2c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ebd1aac58bd71decc5144562bf6354d2.m4a ce5530381a7bceae723f391c1d114945 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/viewer/viewer.php?cachefiles=Wasyliw.xml Local URL The URL of the local directory containing all assets of the website http://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=Wasyliw.xml OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ZenonWasyliw.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zenon Wasyliw Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dillon Eggleston and Grace Palumbo Biographical Text Zenon Wasyliw is a professor of History at Ithaca College. He is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Johnson City, New York. Both of his parents emigrated from Ukraine at the end of World War II after his father had been offered a position in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Binghamton as a choir director. He and his wife live together in Ithaca, and make the hour long drive to Johnson City each week to attend mass, although his wife is not of Ukrainian descent. He has traveled to Ukraine and Russia multiple times to tour the hometowns of his parents and do dissertation work at Kiev University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 54:15 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Language English Subject LCSH Wasyliw, Zenon. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Culture; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Ethnicity; Historians ; Ukrainian Orthodox Church; Ukrainian Catholic Church; Ethnic identity Digital Publisher Binghamton University Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Zenon Wasyliw Interviewed by: Grace Palumbo and Dillon Eggelston Transcriber: Grace Palumbo and Dillon Eggelston Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 12:00 pm Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Dillon Eggleston: Good afternoon, it's Sunday April 10th, 2016. I'm Dillon Eggleston. Grace Palumbo: And I'm Grace Palumbo. DE: And we're interviewing -- Zenon Wasyliw: Zenon Wasyliw, or Zenon Wasyliw. DE: And we're at Saint John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York and we'd like to begin our interview. So Professor Wasyliw, could you tell us when and where you were born? ZW: I was born not far from here on the north side of Johnson City. My parents came from Ukraine. DE: Can you tell us where in the Ukraine your family comes from? ZW: Well my father came from Stryi, which is in the Galician or Halychyna part and my mother came from the Volyn region, which was more in the northern part and that's where the both of them met and actually lived before living is in the Volyn region, in the northern region of Ukraine. GP: When did they come over to the United States? ZW: They came in 1948, along with my brother who was born in 1946. They lost three children before coming here. Two daughters died in a carpet bombing and a son who had died in a refugee camp. And so I'm the American- I was the American in the family because I was born here. DE: Did your family first settle in Binghamton or was this a later move? ZW: No, they first settled in this area. DE: In Johnson City? ZW: Well first in Binghamton, the area of Downs Avenue. And then they worked at Endicott Johnson and bought an Endicott Johnson house, an E.J. house. You've heard of that? DE: Oh yes yes, I had a maternal grandmother who worked for EJ as well. Did your family consider elsewhere before leaving the Ukraine? ZW: What's interesting is, though my dad came from a very poor family, to finish his education he went to a religious seminary but never got ordained. But he made a number of friends who told him they were leaving for the United States and that they would help sponsor him if he ever wanted to leave. And so it happened and they had become priests, Basilian Fathers, and so they filled out the paperwork and he was brought to Binghamton to be a choir director at the Ukrainian Catholic church. And so it was kind of a link of former friends. GP: Did you have any relatives here when your family came over? ZW: No, nope. Almost all the relatives stayed behind in Ukraine. An aunt and uncle did settle in Chicago. DE: You mentioned that your father was at the Ukrainian Catholic church. ZW: Yes. DE: But today we're at an Orthodox Church. ZW: Yes. DE: Can you tell us a little about that? ZW: Sure! You know in Ukraine, even now, it's very pluralistic religiously. You even have three Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions. And so my mother was born Ukrainian Orthodox but became Ukrainian Catholic and I grew up in the Ukrainian Catholic church. But there's always this pull, you know, with the Ukrainian Orthodox and I was hired at Ithaca College in 1989 and another lovely person was put into my office who became my wife -you met her in the social hall- and a very good friend of ours, he was the chairperson of the communication department and was also a Greek Orthodox priest. And so we decided to become Eastern Orthodox and it was important to maintain the heritage. And so we joined this parish. But I grew up with friends with both churches. But I kind of like with this parish, how can I put it, it's-- not to be unfair to the other parish, but it's a little less nationalistic and very accepting. I mean you have, most of the parish have, you know, non-Ukrainian spouses. We have people who aren't even of Ukrainian background who are members, the Parish president, Brian Baxendale. So in a way, it was a number of things, a very good friend of ours being an Orthodox priest, but also leaning toward -we had our issues with the Catholic Church too. And granted, and so we joined the parish, and then when our daughter was born in 1995, she was baptized here. And we would take the one-hour drive almost every week, and she went to religious instructions, and it was a very warm and accepting parish. So I don't know if that explains part of it, but yeah I mean, there are other issues too, where you have congregational control of finances, for example and a little bit more of a democratic spirit. But my brother still goes to the other church, I have many friends. DE: Have you visited the Ukraine since your family has come to America? ZW: I have. My area is East European history, Soviet history, and I first went in the summer of 1984 with a group of Canadian educators. And it was the first time, I met all of these distant, even you know, cousins, uncles and aunts, they gave me a very nice welcome. I had never met them before, but I used to write letters to my aunt and uncle in Ukraine. But I have a much larger extended family, and so that was really very, very interesting. But then I returned again in 1986 to do dissertation research and so I was at Moscow State University and Kiev State University. And then I returned in the 90s and 2000s, but to be honest since my mom passed away - my dad passed away '86 and then my mom passed away about ten years ago- I really haven't kept up with the family. DE: Can you tell us what it was like to meet these people for the first time? You had mentioned you had correspondence with them. ZW: Yeah, I had correspondence, more with my mom's side of the family, but less so with my father's. And they all started crying and you know they were us telling stories, it was a rough life. And my mom had actually visited there back in 1977, but you know when she told them about losing three kids and surviving and-- I mean it was. I had one uncle who was in the Soviet Army, who died and never found out where he was. I had another uncle I met, who was in the Red Army, in the Soviet Red Army. He was captured by the Germans, he escaped. He was a part of the French Resistance but then he got arrested because he was in France. But then he was a veteran, and then I had another uncle who fought for Ukrainian liberation. But you know, a number of them were taken away as slave laborers by the Germans as well. But they got me drunk a number of times. So it was interesting, it was more intentional, in 1984, type of stuff so. I should have been better in keeping in touch with them, so. GP: Was it difficult to get there because they were under Soviet rule at the time? ZW: Well, by 1984 things had opened up and I just didn't want to go as a tourist. So I went together with a group of Canadian educators, I was the only American in the group. And it was Ukrainian language and literature seminars in Kiev University, and then traveling around. I was still a member of the other parish and people had thought I'd become, you know, that I'm betraying whatever, but in a way it made a big impact, traveling there. So I learned a lot too and I picked up more of my language and became very fluent and kind of got a real flavor for it. And then in 1986 I was there from 86 into 1987, living in a dorm at Moscow State University, surviving on 350 Rubles a month, and it was after Chernobyl. And so I was in Kiev in December, but I'm glad I did it both times, because now when I teach, I have these great stories for my students. In terms of how my experiences, staying ahead of the authorities when making photocopies of documents or microfilms because I had a faculty mentor, who was from SUNY Albany, whenever I would make copies, he would take them from me and take them to the US embassy. And it would take them for a while to find out what I was photocopying. They would start restricting it and then I would go to another place to make microfilm and stuff like that. And my faculty mentor did the right thing because the materials were sent out by diplomatic pouch, 'because the authorities would never look at the stuff. So it was interesting. DE: Quickly, what was 300 Rubles, how much would that be in today's, do you know? ZW: Well, the problem at the time was, there wasn't stuff to buy using Rubles. But they did have specialty stores, for hard currency, but I didn't want to do it. And you know, to be honest, there were other people who were on an exchange who came from more affluent backgrounds. I was from SUNY, I didn't have, I did not have disposable income and so I tried to live like everyone else did. And so, I survived. In Moscow my uncle and cousin came up and they brought me dried fish and goods and stuff like that, which was an experience, which was nice. But you know, there were people that differentiated by us too. If you were a member of the party you were pretty well off. I made a number of British friends who were doing research, and we found out that one academy of sciences library archive had a good cafeteria. We would go there for lunch, I could go on and on. I tell my students these stories. DE: Do you have a strong sense of Ukrainian identity, despite being in the US and do you feel as though that's a different identity than the Catholic Church, which you mentioned was more nationalistic? ZW: Well, I mean, there are people related, distantly, between the two parishes. You know, I've lived in Ithaca where we're a very progressive community and for example the revolution that took place in Ukraine I see as very, very positive. Because it deals with building a civil society and an identity based on citizenship, not on nationality. And so in Ukraine, you could be Ukrainian background, you could be Russian background, you could be Jewish, you could be Muslim and you're a citizen of Ukraine. And so for me it's really a cultural identity. And you know, the more the merrier. And in a way this parish really represents this because it's more identity based and kind of sharing a culture, you know, if you've looked at the hall, you've looked around here, people are very proud of their heritage. Even though there isn't a strict lineage of Ukrainian, you marry Ukrainian. But to me it's more of a cultural affinity. And my wife is not of Ukrainian background but she really likes the parish, she's a member of the sisterhood, I sing in the choir, can't make it every Sunday. But our daughter, you know, loves this parish. Her name is Victoria, she decided to take her Ukrainian name, Vika, V-I-K-A. She's a third-year student at Northeastern, electrical engineering major. Pat and I are historians, but to her, the identity is really important, and people from the parish send her letters. You know, they give little scholarships for college students from here. And so it's a nice -do you see what I mean? It's beyond just identity, but it's a community, centered around this cultural identity that's still very important to people. GP: How long have you spoken Ukrainian? ZW: Since I was born. It's an interesting situation, where my parents would start talking to me in English, but I refused to speak to them in English. I would speak to them in Ukrainian because to me, I knew that was their native language. And so we had the Giant Market, you remember the Giant Market? DE: Yes. ZW: They would start talking to me in English and I would respond to them in Ukrainian. It was probably why I became a historian, kind of a contrarian type of person. Of course when I was in Ukraine, I really worked on picking up more of the literary language, so I'm pretty fluent in it. GP: Does your daughter speak Ukrainian as well? ZW: Oh she's angry at me that I didn't teach her any. I started to, but you know, she might pick it up. But do you see what I mean, identity is wide open. But you know it also comes up with January seventh is when we celebrate Christmas, Ukrainian Christmas and Easter follows an Eastern Orthodox calendar and you know, we do a number of other traditions as well. DE: What smells remind you of Ukraine? ZW: Cabbage. DE: Cabbage? GP: Cabbage? ZW: Otherwise known as Kapusta. You know it's a very durable food, that and potatoes. Actually when I was living in the dorms, back in the 80s, there was always plenty of cabbage and potatoes, I mean, it's like the Irish. I don't know if you know a little Irish history, they had their famine, and everyone had to leave and they had to deal with the English. And with the Ukrainians it was the same thing, they had this traumatic famine, people had to leave, they had to deal with the Russian Empire. When they made food to sell they do cabbage rolls, and the pierogis out of potatoes. GP: I was reading about that online, looked good. ZW: Well, you should come. GP: How do the cultural values of people in the US seem to differ from those of the Ukraine? ZW: When you have a community like this, there's a sense of watching out for one another and even though, you know, we're not related by blood, there is this feeling of an extended family. And I think that's becoming less and less common in the US. People are kind of more atomized, kind of go off on their own, and so that I think is very nice. And in Ukraine it's more pluralistic and one of my areas of study is sociology of religion and in Ukraine there's Ukrainian Greek Catholic church, there’s a Roman Catholic church, there are three different Ukrainian Orthodox churches, because we argue. I mean, do you see what I mean? It's more fluid. There's a strong Jewish community there. A Muslim community. The fastest growing religion is Mormonism. So, part of it is, because even with Poland, you have the Catholic Church, in Russia it's the Russian Orthodox Church under the Patriarch. And part of the Ukrainian culture is there's this strong identity and feel of attachment, but this kind of, probably why we haven't had political independence as much. Because you kind of have this real diversity of thought and attachment. I hope that makes sense. GP: Yeah. ZW: And in a way Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic, and there are Ukrainian Protestants in the area too. Pentecostalists. DE: So, you mentioned that your wife wasn't Ukrainian but she's since been accepted into the parish. ZW: Oh very nicely. DE: How has this differed from other marriages that have been within the parish itself? ZW: This parish is very, very welcoming. I think most of the marriages are Ukrainian non-Ukrainian, actually. You read the liturgy; most of it is in English. But people still maintain the other traditions, I think it was a long-term priest here, Father Lawryk and his wife, who really had this "Let's welcome everyone in but share the culture." So, you know, the deacon who was serving today, he's not of Ukrainian background, but he married someone from the parish. And then there's another example, I'm forgetting his name, his last name is Baxter, where as a kid, he kind of he got into trouble and one Ukrainian family kind of adopted him and he started going to dance and rehearsals and everything else. He became a Ukrainian Orthodox priest. Not one little iota of even Ukrainian background. So I mean it's this kind of fluid, more fluid identity, which is nice. But I think looking at community and having shared cultural values, and with this family you have these core families, larger families, and you know attendance can vary. When they all come together at Easter, the place fills up. Hope I'm not giving too long answers. GP and DE: No, no these are the are great. DE: Did your parents have trouble assimilating to American culture when they came over? ZW: Well, in some ways yes, because the parish became the center of their life and you know, my father was the choir director and my mom volunteered a lot with preparing food and raising funds and with organization. But you know, they also had friends beyond the community as well, I think as time went on. And you know with my brother and me, that kind of bring things out, but clearly the focus -you know, what would happen is since many people at Sacred Heart had to leave quickly and many of their relatives stayed behind, you would have a system of Godparents. And so my Godmother, Yechyk, I became closer with that family. My mother was Godmother of Stephan and then my brother had -you see what I'm getting at? There are ways of kind of creating another form of an extended family. They're always going to feel like I'm a member of that parish, which is fine and I still stay in contact with them. So we kind of have this interesting cultural adaptation with Godparents and making those kinds of relations as well. I think in this parish -because this was formed in 1926- you're already getting into fourth generation members and a bit at Sacred Heart. You have a number of people who are interrelated as well but extended families are pretty strong here too. GP: Are there any elements of American culture that you prefer over Ukrainian culture or vice versa? ZW: Well, you know American culture is so different. I've lived in Ithaca since 1989, and we have our own culture there! And so both my wife and I were, Ithaca is a very caring and open-minded community and so that's kind of our view of American Ithaca culture. And I think American culture is changing a bit and even in Ukraine it depends what region of Ukraine you go to you'll find differences as well. What I think is still important is this sense of having some kind of identity, having a community. I mean, when the parish puts on their Ukrainian Days Festival, it's amazing. Everyone just comes together, volunteers, no one gets paid. People come together, they volunteer, their time, the choir sings, there are dancers, you know they make $30,000 to $35,000 to help support the church. And so do you see it's kind of this volunteerism, caring for one another; people aren't really talking American politics here either, because that could be pretty lethal. That's the one thing missing at Ithaca, because you don't have these ethnic communities. There's so many university students. Sometimes we'll go to the Greek Church, but it's nothing like here. And so, in a way, you know, it's very accepting, but still it's nice to have a community and our daughter really benefitted a lot by it. Because you know, coming here every week when my mother was still alive, she got to see her grandmother. But it has this other alternative community that she can look forward to. And her friends don't always understand this. Members of the Sisterhood sent her a box of cookies and wrote her a personal letter, and she put it up on her bulletin board. She says "Look, people care." And so, I think that's a big thing. And you know, the communities can vary in identity, this is a far more assimilated parish because the founders, there are very few people who were born in Ukraine here. Then at Sacred Heart it's a different situation, but even they're kind of adapting and you know they have an English liturgy there too, so it depends. But I'm warped by it, actually I'm a little critical, I don't know if you've ever heard the term "ten square miles surrounded by reality." That's what defines Ithaca, and I just see these bumper stickers. And when you have an Ivy League university and Ithaca College, which is a private university, it kind of brings in a lot of wealth. And you can kind of live this lifestyle, believing you know a lot of stuff being out of touch with the rest of the world. I hope you understand what I'm getting at. And Universities can be real bubbles too. DE: Can you tell us how you and your wife met? ZW: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because we were both grad students at Binghamton University, but she was Medieval and I did East Europe, so we knew of each other but then, we were both hired at Ithaca College at the same time and put in the same office, [laughter], and it was, in a way, what also happened is a lot of older faculty, but they really liked us. And that's the other kind of thing that there's less of, they would have dinner parties and we would be invited, and as I've mentioned, part of the group was a Greek Orthodox priest who later became a metropolitan, archbishop, but he loved to party. And, you know, we said; well let's have Gus perform the ceremony, so we kind of had our own little group as well. But since he was a good friend of ours, we had the wedding there [in Ithaca]. But there was a priest here, Father Myron, who I would stay in touch with and he kept sending parish bulletins, and when our daughter was to be born we decided, well, you know, we want to give her all of this, and it was the right move. Now, in the mid-1990s, the latter part of the nineties, Ithaca College let go of a bunch of people, and my wife was one of them, but then she got a job at Cornell. She's an assistant dean for admissions and advising, but she does international admissions for the liberal arts school. So she's been to, just last year she's been to India for two weeks, through a full break, Armenia in the fall, Japan in January. She's been to Australia, then China a couple of times, different places in Europe, nice places in Europe. I laugh because, a little over ten years ago, as part of a grant that sent me to less favorable parts of Eastern Europe, not the capitals, but these other places, so we make the commute here, [to this parish], whenever we can. When our daughter was still going to classes here, and my mother was alive, we almost made it every week, but now it's more like once or twice a month. DE: Was your wedding based in Ukrainian culture? ZW: No, it was a Greek Orthodox ceremony in English, though my best man, Mike Lowa, did a few things in Ukrainian. He's belonged to three different parishes, but it was really a very, met a few Ukrainians from Sacred Heart, but it was professors, and family who was there, along with a few faculty members who were there. So, there weren't many [Ukrainians], that wasn't as important to us. It was important to have friends there, and friends performing the ceremony. And we had an open bar. [Laughter]. And it was all in Ithaca, which was neat. GP: Do you think your Ukrainian heritage influenced you to become a historian? ZW: Oh, definitely. You know, I had, because my grandparents were in Ukraine, I had replacement grandparents, and I heard so many stories from them, and they came from different regions of Ukraine. And, my dad and mom would tell a lot of stories, and a lot of people in the community would push for their children to get degrees in engineering, and medicine, and stuff like that, but they just didn't have people who would study history, because what do you do with a degree in history? But I was also thinking of going into high school teaching. Things just kind of-- you know how they can build, you know, here I am at Binghamton, okay, I'll become a history major, I'll get an MAT, though, I went to Harvard summer school when I was a junior, and they said you should keep getting a PhD, you know this stuff really well. And I said, well there so much work in a PhD, so instead I got an MAT to teach high school social studies, and I did that a little bit, but then people said you should keep on going and I got another master’s, and then a PhD. And, in a way, I was trying to look at Ukrainian history form a larger perspective, and it was in the spring of 1989, we were going to Cornell to do some research, and we were passing Ithaca College. I looked to the right and I said, I would like to teach here. Two weeks later, a job opened up, and they hired me. So, it was meant to be. But, I'm always careful. My research was on Ukrainian history, and as when the Soviet Union fell apart, suddenly there weren't many people who knew about this part of the world, because the idea was, well, you study Russian history, because that's the "empire," and you didn't have as many people looking at other parts of the Soviet Union, in part to employability. But at Ithaca College, I really liked it; because I taught a variety of courses and then when they found out I had an MAT, they asked me to coordinate the social studies teacher education program. SO, I have this whole other community. We put out 3-5 people a year, and we have this closed Facebook group of graduates who are social studies teachers or administrators. And I was chair of the history department for six years, and interim director of the gerontology institution. So, I do a lot of different things, and teach different courses, but in a way, being interested in the family past, and trying to make sense of really tragic histories all around, and so, here we are. DE: What was your thesis? ZW: I was planning to do a dissertation on secular rituals, and to replace sacred rituals. But they hired a new dissertation director, and she was Heather's [DeHaan] dissertation advisor at Toronto, but her name was Viola, and what Viola basically said was, well pick a topic on peasants or peasants. And so, I decided to look at the status of the Ukrainian countryside in the 1920s. It was very interesting because, in the 1920s, with the Soviet history, they actually became much more liberal. They didn't have collective farms, and they had a policy of nativization, where they were pushing, and teaching in native languages. And so in was in the 1920s that for the first time-- because during the Russian Empire, they banned Ukrainian-- they had a number of decrees where Ukrainian was not only not to be taught, but it was not even allowed to be written. And so, you could get in trouble. The portrait of the poet Taras Shevchenko on the right, [on the wall of the room], was a serf, and he was, his freedom was bought, and he started writing poetry. He was in St. Petersburg as an artist, but they sent him off to Siberia, and he started writing in Ukrainian. But his Ukrainian became kind of a social history because he wrote about the struggles of everyday people and stuff like that. And he was always repressed, and there was always this pressure on the language. The Ukrainian part that was in Austria, they were allowing for more. But then, in 1921, the Soviet government said, in order to convince people to be Communist, we have to teach them in their native language. And so a decree went out, 'everyone is now going to learn Ukrainian.' They also created a separate Ukrainian republic, Soviet Republic, and you had the first president of Ukraine, independent Ukraine, coming back and the danger was that in the Soviet Union, you had a very strong Ukrainian identity. People were speaking Ukrainian, and so I'm looking at this period where, suddenly, people are speaking in their native language, literacy rates are improving. But on the other hand, they're not taking on a Soviet identity, they're taking on more of the Ukrainian identity. And so, when Stalin takes power in 1928, all of this is just going to be crushed. So, to make a long story short, that's it. The areas that I'm studying, neither of my parents come from really, but I thought it was a good social history. So the challenges to get the voice of the people up, and very often, people didn't write, but it was a period of even Soviet history that was more relaxed, up until Stalin came. GP: What were your parent's experiences in Ukraine, or in the USSR even? ZW: Well, my dad was older, and he was born in what was the Austrian Empire. The memoires of that era were better, but, I mean, it was during the First World War, and as a child he remembers different armies coming and going and coming and going. And then Ukraine became part of Poland, which was kind of difficult, because if you were of Ukrainian background, you kind of couldn't really get jobs. My mother was a bit younger, but he grew up in a city, which was much different. And that probably impacted me too, because you had Poles and Jews living in the city, and so, she never learned how to embroider, she never did the Easter eggs. Do you see what I'm getting at? A lot of this [the culture] is still pretty much a village culture, and so, in a way, I may have been advantaged. My dad came from a very, very poor family, but at the time the Austrian government stated opening up gymnasiums, kind of schools, that carried on, and when it was time to continue the education, it was difficult. With thirteen kids in the family, my father couldn't afford it, and then he found out that you could go to school for free at a religious seminary, and so he went off, and finished his degree there. Then, he studied Latin, among other things. He never became a priest, but kind of came back and was pretty much unemployed. Eventually, he was hired to be a choir director, and stuff like that. When the Soviets came in, because he was literate, he actually got a job, helping edit a newspaper. People around here wouldn't like to hear that, of course, but, you know, there are different stories. Then, they asked him to teach because my father, by this time, knew seven languages. But, there was always this threat, they [the Soviets] would say, 'we know you have a religious background,' and that was always going to hang over his head. So, I think he was able to stay neutral when he was teaching, and then when the Nazis came in, he just stayed teaching in the school there. Aunts and uncles were taken away as forced laborers, Eastern workers, but he hung in there. Towards the end of the war he had to decide, 'do I stay, even though I have these friends in the United States who might sponsor me? Or, do I chance it with the state?' You know, he never held a gun. It's a very unique story, you would laugh. He was in the Soviet army for three days, and they kind of had him take notes on supplies, and then he was in the Polish army for three hours or something. But throughout the entire experience, he never was part of any military, which is very unique, I think. And so, trains were leaving for the West, and they had to decide, and they ended up going. And, they lost two kids in a massive bombardment. They ended up in a refugee camp, and then a son passed away. You know, it kind of reminds me of all of the stuff going on in Syria now. But, sure enough, they got to New York City. His friends from the seminary met him at the boat, at the dock, and then put him on a train to Binghamton. The people here were very nice, very supportive. What was interesting, when I got back in 1984, my aunt was telling me that the Soviet authorities kept bugging her to talk my dad into coming back. I mean, in a way that means he probably wasn't in as much trouble as others. But you know, you couldn't have trusted that. But, my aunt was very outspoken, and she said 'I told them, I wouldn't trust you, you guys are liars!' And her poor husband, who was a veteran, was like 'quiet, quiet, don't say anything like that!' DE: Why didn't your parents stay in New York City? ZW: Because part of my father's justification for coming here, was that they needed a choir director in Binghamton. GP: Did your parents ever go back to Ukraine? ZW: My mother did, in 1977. What happened was, when they got here, my father went to work at Endicott-Johnson, and my mother worked at Don McCarthy shoe factory. Much later, when my father worked in the factory, and he worked second shift, my mom worked first shift, so someone would be home. During dinner breaks, my dad would read books. So one day, his friend said 'Bill, listen.' He went by Bill because my parents were Visil and Maria, and when they got citizenship, they changed it to William and Mary, and my dad went by Bill. They gave me my name because it was very historic. But anyway, his friends would say 'Bill, you can be a teacher,' and towards the end, before he retired, he got certified to teach German and Russian, and he taught for a few years. And that kind of had an impact on my brother and I. My brother is ten years older, but he ended up going to SUNY Cortland, a PE major, but went on to get a PhD in anatomy, and a medical doctor, and just retired from practicing orthopedic surgery in this area. I mean, life is more complex, because you'll say 'oh, first generation college' and whatever else, but it's kind of muddled that way as well. DE: What were the seven languages that your father knew? ZW: Gee, well, we have Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, German, Latin, Greek, and I'm forgetting what other one. Because he knew the Slavic languages, he would've picked that up. But, you know, that would be the thing. There were other like him, who were educated, but in the US, people hear you speak with an accent and they think you're stupid. But that wasn't the case. But it's a nice community here, or at least it was. It's kind of scary when you now have this Islamophobia, and Dearborn, Michigan has a large concentration of Muslims, but they're very assimilated, and acclimated. People would come here because they saw opportunity. It's in Europe that the Muslims weren't as accepted as well. This area has had a lot of refugees come in. But one of the differences is that when my parents came, there was already an established community, and people were helping them out. DE: Have your children been to Ukraine? ZW: No. But at some point. You see, my wife's the good travel organizer, and she's looking to at some point arrange the right time. I have a step-daughter, who's older now and who just got back to Ithaca recently. She has a library science degree she got from Michigan. She was working at SUNY Potsdam and then met a web developer who's at St. Lawrence University. To our great fortune, he got a job at Cornell, and she got a job at Ithaca College as a librarian. Our younger daughter is at Northeastern, and they require three six-month co-ops, and that means she works form January until the end of June. This summer she's off to Italy, taking two four-credit classes. So, it's a matter of timing and money, as to when we'll go there. But, you know, I have a conference in New York, Association for the Study of Nationalities, and my wife has already planned out, there are a number of Ukrainian restaurants. And, you know, we visited the Ukrainian museum, and we support the church as well, so, kind of aligned, but we're not professional Ukrainians. I mean, it's important, but, it's part of our multi-faceted life. GP: What's your favorite Ukrainian recipe? ZW: My wife a great cook, but being in Ithaca, I prefer more vegetarian options, so the cabbage rolls with either rice and mushrooms, or buckwheat kasha. When I was over there, other Americans who were in Russia or Ukraine couldn't handle the buckwheat kasha, and I love that stuff, so I think that's also differentiated. But there's a lot of foods that I like. We had pierogies last night, and what's nice is that, when they make them here, if there's leftover dough, they let people take it home. So my wife made some potato pierogies. But usually I like the sauerkraut filling. DE: Can you tell us about Ukrainian music? ZW: Oh, yeah. It's lyrical. Often, Ukrainian will be compared to Italian. It's a very kind of lyrical language; it's kind of a sing-song language. I sang in the choir in the basses today and, you know, a cappella is the way the liturgy works, and everything is sung. Although at Sacred Heart they recite more often now. But, you know the choral music is nice, the folk music as well. It's a very, very rich musical culture. They had a priest and his wife here for decades, who did a really nice job in terms of all of the folk arts that were here, and putting in a folk choir, and stuff like that. But you know, in Ukraine, they have reggae, Ukrainian reggae, and other types of similar music. I don't' know if you've heard of 'Gogo' or there's another group as well, with very kind of a blend of new age and folk music. So there's a lot of different varieties. But I do admit, I like singing in the bass section of the choir. DE: Would your parents have listened to the reggae Ukrainian music, or was that not around yet? ZW: They didn't know what it was. So, I mean, you hear different musical styles, but I'm a reggae fan, or old music. DE: I think we've got a lot of information so thank you so much. GP: Thank you so much. ZW: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zenon Wasyliw Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wasyliw, Zenon ; Eggleston, Dillon ; Palumbo, Grace Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Zenon Wasyliw is a professor of History at Ithaca College. He is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church here in Johnson City, New York. Both of his parents emigrated from Ukraine at the end of World War II after his father had been offered a position in the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Binghamton as a choir director. He and his wife live together in Ithaca, and make the hour long drive to Johnson City each week to attend mass, although his wife is not of Ukrainian descent. He has traveled to Ukraine and Russia multiple times to tour the hometowns of his parents and do dissertation work at Kiev University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Zenon Wasyliw.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 54:15 Subject The topic of the resource Wasyliw, Zenon. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Culture; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2e59527ded2e9601aee5939924d74b81.mp3 5bd4fad5db616f38e418cced94cc7f69 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrianna Watson Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Biographical Text Adrianna Watson is a college student majoring in Law and is a second generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in Johnson City. She lives in the Southern Tier of New York with her large, extended family.  Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 71:36 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Watson, Adrianna. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Ukrainian folk dancing; Ukrainian cooking; Summer camps; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AdriannaWatson.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Ethnicity; College students; Holidays; Binghamton (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Oral History Project Interview with: Adrianna Watson Interviewed by: McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Transcriber: McKenna Hage and Kevin Hiller Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:00 AM Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) McKenna Hage: OK, so would you mind just stating your name and date of birth where you're from for us? Adrianna Watson: Adriana Watson, Umm1/14/97 and I am from Binghamton New York right here. I am born in JC Wilson Hospital, so right here. MH: And can you just tell us a little about yourself? AW: Yeah, I am a college student at BCC. I actually just changed my major to law, I'm going for to become a lawyer. I am Ukrainian, very proud to be Ukrainian. I come from a huge, huge, huge family [laughs]. Church is basically all my family plus some, it's kind of ridiculous. I don't know what else you wanna know? MH: You said you're proud to be Ukrainian, what are some of the things that you really take pride in and how has it shaped who you are? AW: I take pride in that I can say that I am Ukrainian, that I've been given this so and so freedom, since Russia is always there trying to take over the country and what not. Being an independent from and being an independent country, even though I was not from Ukraine, I am American born, I take-- it is very -- it is very important to me to always share my heritage to everyone, no matter who they are. And I take very much pride because my family rose me Ukrainian. My first language was Ukrainian even though I was American born. So but I am not as fluent as I used to be, but it is still a lot of fun. Holidays always around Ukrainian, Easter is ridiculous, Christmas is even more ridiculous. We have about oh! a good 100 people over at the house. MH: Woo, that's a lot. AW: Yes it is, we have dinner there. We have a whole bunch of the certain meals that we have to eat a certain way and we pull the hair and we tap the spoon on the head with peas and what not, it is a lot of fun. All home-made food, my grandma makes all the food, it is ridiculous and then we go to midnight mass, and then we go to my priest's house with caroling. And it's a lot of fun. Easter is a lot of fun too. I just, my friends have always been, want to know so much about me being Ukrainian just because I am so open about it. I am very open about who I am, where I come from, I like to explain to people. I like to tell people how proud I am to be Ukrainian. Actually, in fourth grade I was in the paper. My teacher saw how proud I am of my heritage, and I was in the paper for it. It was, it was a lot of fun and I've been very open about it and just, it's just been around me my whole life. My whole family, here obviously, is just so into it. So I've grown to be into it as well. MH: Now, when did-- were your parents born here? AW: My parents were born here. My grandmother was born here. My grand-father wasn't. So that's where I am second, I am the second generation and my great-grandparents were or my grandmothers grandparents were born in Ukraine, so that's where I am the third generation, kind of confusing I know, but that's where I am from. MH: What were-- what brought your grandparent over from Ukraine? AW: Which, my grandfather? MH: Yes. AW: Okay, my grandfather because he was in such turmoil in Ukraine, and he was separated from his family when he was very young, at my age around 18/19 years old. He was actually from Ukraine, separated from his family, taken to I believe Germany and that's where he was pretty much raised. So he kind of spoke a lot more German than Ukrainian, because that's where he was living, so then his family was moved to Poland. So my grandparents' family is in Poland right now instead of Ukraine, but they are Ukrainian. Another confusing kind of thing. But then he came over here because Germany was in such turmoil with the World Wars and whatnot so he came over here though I think Parris Island? No not Parris Island, what am I thinking. Ellis Island. My friends are from Parris Island. Ellis Island, I actually went to Ellis Island, his name is there, it's very touching, very cool. It's very cool you know to see your grandfather's' name, he died of cancer but that's another story. So that's how he came over here. My great grandparents came over here I believe to get married. I am not 100% sure because I never met them, and my grandmother just always tells me how wonderful and good people they were. "titka" means "aunt" in Ukrainian by the way, just a Ukrainian term. They were like the first of the church, and brought up through the church and knew the old church so I think that's what they were. They help built it and stuff like that, my grandfather did, my great father did at least. MH: Did your grandfather, since he grew up in and spent a lot of time in Germany, was he still able to maintain his Ukrainian heritage? AW: Yes, oh yes. He came over here and was like we're raising my kids Ukrainian, that is it, end of story. No matter how long he was in Germany, he did teach my mom and my aunts a little German, because you know it better to know more languages, right? So, but he was definitely hardcore Ukrainian just like the rest of my family is. MH: Did he settle right in Binghamton? AW: Oh, yes. He settled right here in Binghamton and that's how he met my grandmother, yeah. MH: Wow. AW: Yeah, yeah. MH: Do you know of any struggles or hardships he might have faced? AW: Oh, man, in Germany? MH: In Germany and here in Binghamton. AW: Okay, in Germany, I know one story my grandmother would always tell me was, he remembered bombs and he remembered being in a ditch for days, because bombs kept going off off and off. And I think that was his last straw to come over here. Over here he met my grandmother right off the bat so they got married rather quickly, and they started having kids. My grandmother was raised on the farm so she was kind of independent, she was the oldest. Very independent, you know, I am my own woman but we're going to get married. They raised four kids, and it was very hard, they were poor, they did not come from wealth at all. So they raised their own name, and through the church- the church really helped bring them, you know- give them family, give them more purpose kind of thing. So religion was very important to them. My grandfather, when he became ill, was when the hardship really happened and my mom was I think nine when he passed. So my grandmother was basically left alone to raise four kids by herself, she had two jobs, so really they came from nothing. They did it! And my uncle is a doctor, my aunt's a nurse, you know, very successful, but they did it. It's- it's amazing how, you know, they came from literally nothing and he came from such distraught and torn away from his family and he comes over here but still had nothing. But family was really important in the Ukrainian heritage, extremely important. I can't even emphasize that enough because without family-- it's just-- It's very prominent. Kevin Hiller: So, what are your favorite kind of family traditions that you have? AW: Oh, I love these, Oh Christmas is just the best time of year, I love Christmas that are just all-around family. We invite everyone over that is family, even non-family you know, we just bring everyone in. Another tradition is making pysanky. I love making pysanky at Easter time; Ukrainian Easter eggs. Ukrainian dancing-was just a lot of fun; I graduated so I kind of had to end that. But it was just a ton of fun. Man, everything about being Ukrainian comes with it, eating food, making paskas, making food, learning how to make food-amazing. Because I get to experience that and not a lot of people do, you know. And I am very grateful for that and I take that to heart for me, because my grandma is passing on her traditions on to me which is amazing, it's just a lot of fun. MH: Do you have any other family stories that really stand out or mean a lot to you as a Ukrainian that you've heard? AW: Oh boy, let me think-- my grandmother, other than being strong, my grandfather coming from absolutely nothing--oh boy. I know a lot of.. Another one of my other cousins Hegoslavka, I think you guys interviewed her. Did you guys interview her? MH: This is my first time-- KH: Yes, this is my first interview too. AW: Oh cool, ok, so another group interviewed her last time, so they might have a little more detail, but she went through hell and back. Excuse my French. But it was, she went through everything. Literally in Ukraine, didn't know where to sleep, didn't know where she was going to eat. She didn't know, she would sell coats, she would wear five or six coats, she would just sell them for money, for anything. She sold everything. She had a whole family she had to provide for, and she did. She did it. I mean through bombing, through raids, through you know witnessing shootings right in front of her eyes. Witnessing her family being killed. It was horrible, but she survived it, again family really is what brought her to America and what really kept her alive- her providing for her family. And her trying everything she can to keep her family alive is- that amazing and it's an amazing story. She's gone through, I don't know, a lot. I only know little snippets because she becomes very emotional obviously talking about it, but ugh, she-- Ukrainian women and men are just so strong, they have been through literally everything. So even as little as going to the doctor and admitting that they need help is just so hard for them because you know they don't want to do it, they're strong, you know what I mean? It's just ugh, it's just amazing, you know, what you're capable of when you are put in those situations. And she did the impossible. She literally came and didn't know where to sleep, slept on the road, slept on different couches, just knocked on doors and just asked to sleep and eat. They ate bread and that was it, another reason why there is bread everywhere [Laughter]. Why we eat so much bread, but yeah, her story is amazing, I only know snippets, but it is an amazing story. MH: Have you ever been to the Ukraine or would you like to visit one day? AW: Oh, I have never been, but I am dying to visit, when, once I graduate college, and get my feet together, I definitely want to travel the world, and my first place would be Ukraine. And Poland because to visit my family. But I have been offered many times to go to Ukraine, money wise, it's hard because I'm only a college student, so you know what it is. [Laughter] But yeah, definitely one day. Definitely. MH: Do you know where in Ukraine your family hailed from, was it rural was it in the city? AW: It was more rural, really, it was villages, umm the villages they came from are not there anymore. So, if I told you, it would be- you'd be like "What? Where?" So, it's more in Western Ukraine, near Poland, that's why Poland was the best route for them, they were more near the border. Kiev, I have family from Kiev, I know people from Kiev, which is the capital. But yeah, more western Ukraine. Southern-Western, something like that, I'm trying to look at that map [points to a map on the wall] but yeah that's where they're pretty much from. MH: Have you ever faced any sort of discrimination being Ukrainian here in Binghamton or was there ever a period where the church came under fire for anything in the community? AW: Umm, I personally, I've experienced some kind of, you know, hesitance for being Ukrainian. To be honest I really- it was an awful situation and someone was like "oh well you're Ukrainian so it doesn't matter what you say". Something kind of like that. That kind of was just a sentence but it kind of was like really? Really? Really? We're in America, we live in such different ethnicity, like come on. But I have, but I still say I'm proud. I don't care what people say, I am Ukrainian, if you don't like it, get on with your life, that's pretty much me. What was your other question? MH: I think you pretty much covered it. But in contrast to that, what are some of the good things that you have experienced? AW: Just reaching out to the people and, you know, connecting to people, you know. I drive down the high way. I've a Tryzub which is the Ukrainian symbol on the back of my car and you know, seeing other people Tryzubs, I honk [Laughter], I say "hey what's up, we were like connected," you know. At BU, I mean BCC, even at BU, I met Ukrainians and stuff like that. There is a lot of Ukrainian out there I didn't know about, I mean they came over from Ukraine and they're starting over at BCC and stuff like that. So, I met a lot people there which is very cool because we connect obviously. I mean I reach out to every Ukrainian I can and I say "oh, you're Ukrainian? Alright, cool, we're new best friends." Like that kind of thing. I've um, I just-- it is just a lot of fun. I go to Ukrainian camp in Ellenville, New York, and I do that my whole life and I've met whole many amazing, amazing friends over there. It is a like a whole new network of friends. Just kinda weird we talk about how my American friends and I met my Ukrainian friends because they're totally different. They really are. How we act together is just totally different, it is a lot of fun. I definitely reach out to other Ukrainians and I definitely, you know, say "Hey, what's up? Let's talk" and stuff like that. Because why not, you know? I mean we're pretty small. I mean Ukraine is pretty desperate and you know not very rich so, might as well reach out to other Ukrainians and see how their life is and see what they've gone through, and what I've gone through and stuff like that. MH: Can you explain how your American friends and Ukrainian friends are different? AW: My American friends, they're very interested but--they are not as religious, and I don't want to put that as how different they are. But they're not as, like, family oriented. Like for example, my one friend, she's an only child, she barely spends time with her family. She's kind of out of the house doing whatever she wants. Me, on the weekends, I am family, 100%, all the time. Literally, I sleep over at her house, eight o'clock in the morning have something to do, always something to do. And so I leave, I go to my family, Ukrainian stuff, obviously, and then church obviously on Sunday, so that's another thing. My Ukrainian friends were very- we're all the same. We're all around family, we're all around religion, we are very--we just kind of act the same too. We have like a different--persona about ourselves, you know what I mean? So, it just, it's just different in that sense of how family means to one another. Not to be like, "Americans don't think family means anything to them", because they do. But it's just the difference of celebrating certain things like holidays and stuff like that. Like how we celebrate Christmas and Easter. You know, my American friends really don't celebrate as in depth as I do. And my Ukrainian friends, we do. Or when we go out, we have zabavas. Zabavas' dances. It's totally different being Ukrainian. All we do is Ukrainian dance. That's it. So Ukrainian dancing is another huge thing that is just different. I polka. I polka and waltz. So, my friends, they're not used to polka-ing or waltzing, so when they come to our zabavas, our dances, they're like "What the heck is this music? This is like from the 1930's". I am like, "It's okay, you just go with it, it is just one two three, you just go". But yeah, it's different in that kind of aspect, just how we live life and stuff like that, which is okay. It's definitely okay. I definitely have a big influence on my American friends' lives and I definitely bring them into my life since it is so different, but I definitely make it work at the same time, so it's a lot of fun. KH: What are some common misconceptions that people might have about Ukraine and what would you like them to know or what people think of the community here in Binghamton? AW: I think sometimes people think that we are too hard headed, that we're too- we don't, I smile a lot because- but I know a lot of people from Ukraine they don't really smile. They don't really want to get to know other people, you just have to let them in. Once you go ahead, and you're in, they are so heartwarming. They're so caring, because they have been through hell and back, excuse my French again. [Laughter] But they're very hard people. They're very hard to read, very hard to crack a smile with. You know, you have my uncles who are from here, they've been through- they have been through it all too and they really sometimes it's like- I'll even be like "Oh, well should I say that? Should I not say that? I don't know what to say", you know what I mean? But once you get to know a Ukrainian, men or women, they are very caring. They will do anything for you because they know what it is like, and they know that if you go through something that they'll help you. I think that's the most- that's hardest thing for other people to get in on with Ukrainians. I smile a lot because that's just my personality. I'm a very open person, very open minded, but a lot of Ukrainians just cut it off and just don't want to get hurt from other people, because they have been. So I think that is the most--yeah. MH: Do you think that's changing all with the younger generations? AW: I do. Me, personally, I do. My generation has been very open and honest. I think it is just the older generation because they did come from Ukraine and did come from just distraught and what not like that. MH: Do you know how the community here in Binghamton has changed since your grandparents and great grandparents immigrated? Do you know how the history has been influenced? AW: We try to keep the history of Ukraine to the history of Ukraine. We know that it's changing. We know that the language is changing, with the new dialects are whatnot. We are considered, what my grandmother likes to say, the "old regime language", which means that sometimes when we communicate with other Ukrainians it is difficult to understand them because they're more, I don't want to say "Russianized" because they are from Eastern Ukraine. They come over here and we're like, "Wait what are you talking about?". So, it's difficult to communicate anymore with other Ukrainians but we still do it, we accept it, we are very open about it because we understand that it's always going to change. The community is changing to be more open minded and more open to other people coming to our heritage. We understand that we can't have all Ukrainians here in this church, we can't have all Ukrainians everywhere. I mean, we're going to marry other people, it's not going to always be Ukrainian. And I mean you just gotta open up and make the community wide. Any, you know, my father's not Ukrainian, he' English. My mom married him, and he came to the church and he considers himself Ukrainian because we're so open about it. We bring 'em in and we're like "Listen, you're part Ukrainian now". He was baptized in this church. Yeah, he was baptized in this church and everything. And he is now a Ukrainian dance teacher, I mean he literally never knew anything Ukrainian a day in his life before my mom, so-- [Laughter] That's a lot of aspect to how it is changing, bringing more people in and trying to introduce our culture to theirs. MH: Do you know what your father really found shocking at first or what he sort of loves most about becoming this new Ukrainian? AW: Family. MH: Family? AW: He really does. I mean, his family, it's not perfect, no family is perfect, but it's very kind of just distraught. They are not very close, they're not very like "Oh, let's hang out every holiday". Our family, doesn't matter what holiday it is. Thanksgiving we have a huge party, big family comes over, everyone comes over. So, I think that is what he really likes the most is how he has made so much family here, that he considers family, even though he's not. He has made so many new friends too, I think that is what he takes much for granted with being Ukrainian and being introduced into the family. It's just family. KH: Was he religious at all before? AW: Yes, he was Christian but he didn't go to church every Sunday like he does now. So that was a big aspect about being baptized, which was huge and amazing and hopefully maybe I'll find someone like that someday because it is hard. It is difficult nowadays. But yeah, he is amazing, he is awesome. MH: You said before that even though this community is more open and changing. Is it still considered more conservative than others? AW: Yes. MH: And in what ways, you know what sort of practices are still rigid in structure? AW: Like religious-wise? MH: Yeah, also culture-wise. AW: Definitely church. Going to church on time. Being there every Sunday. Going for holidays and stuff like that. We go for every holiday. Thanksgiving eve. We go to church. It's a big thing. It's huge for our family to be at church on time and to be there every Sunday, every holiday. It's good though, it really is. It brings up a lot of things. It is conservative, it brings up a lot of morality wise and stuff like that. It teaches you a different side of what other people are thinking or whatever. It's really good to be on both sides, because I've seen both sides. I understand both sides. My dad's and my mom's. I think that church really what makes us that way. MH: Do you know when your great-grandparents immigrated, what their immigration experience was like? AW: My great grandparents, I think they also came through Ellis Island, I believe so- either that or they came on a boat, I'm not sure. But their experience was very hard. It was extremely difficult. It was not easy coming over here from nothing, from a different country, it's difficult. Even nowadays for immigrants it's hard. But back then definitely with all of the turmoil, and the war, and that possible terrorists out there and what not. It was difficult for them to come over here to improve their lives, and their name and become an American citizen, but they did it. It was a long journey, but they definitely did it and thank god for that because I wouldn't be here. MH: Do you know what their occupations were? AW: I honestly, my grandfather was a farmer and my great grandmother did nothing. They raised, on the farm that I live on today actually, he had a little shop that my great grandmother, worked at as well. They did that in Binghamton actually. Do you know where St. Michael's is? Right around the corner there used to be a little shop, and that was their little shop. And they literally built it and did the best they could, like a little hardware shop or whatever. At my house there was actually a little gas station. Right in my front yard, it was kind of weird- just one pump. And they also lived off of that. They lived off of selling their meat, their eggs, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's how they raised farmers. My whole family was farmers. My grandmother and all of her brothers and sisters, there was nine of them, so they were all farmers, raised on the farm, and working hard. My grandmother stayed home, my uncles went out to college and stuff like that. My grandmother I don't believe even went to college, she worked jobs her whole life trying to support her family, and support even when she was living with her parents. So, farming that's it. MH: So you said you live in the same house, I think that is so cool. AW: Yeah. It's 140 years old. MH: Oh my gosh! KH: Wow! AW: It's an old house. It's amazing. I mean, you can just feel- sometimes you can feel the presence of my great grandparents which is just amazing. Still the same barn across the street, just a red barn. We don't raise cattle anymore and stuff like that but back then, you know, seeing where they would slaughter them, where to keep them, where the horses were, were the chickens were, we have a chicken coop in my backyard too, so we use that now for storage. But it's really cool living in the same house my grandparents raised and built their name. MH: Are there any sort of specific objects in the house that have a story or some importance? AW: Oh, boy! My-- we actually have my great-grandparents wedding cake still. MH: Wow! AW: So that's in the house, which that is really cool because that thing is like-- I think it is like 100 years old to be honest with you, very old. But it is really cool to have, you know, that presence there. And we've changed a lot of it, we used to have old wallpaper that they had, oh man was wallpaper was just horrible. [Laughter] When they talk about horrible, I'm talking about horrible. So, we repainted that but we've redone the whole house basically. The barn is really what we kept alone, obviously we use it for storage and whatnot. But there's still hay up in the barn, so it's really cool to, you know, feel the hay from when they were alive, you know what I mean? I mean, it connects me to them since I never got to meet them, which I would have loved to have met them. But yeah it is cool, it is cool. MH: Can you explain the significance of the wedding cake and in Ukrainian tradition? AW: It's like a regular wedding cake. We do not cut it, we shellac it, so we keep it forever. It is the meaning of the bond of a marriage because you keep it forever, you shellac and keep it. We have a party to make it with all our cousins. The bridal party, we invite whoever- it is usually women who make it- we invite the women over, we sit there, and we all make the dough. The center of it is paska. Paska is like sweet bread, have you ever had Day of the Dead bread? No? It's like a very sweet bread, very light. Oh, my grandma makes the best paska- again bread is huge. [Laughter] We make that first and then we make little chotchkies which are like little birds, and like flowers and stuff like that and then we shellac them, we all lay them out separate after the shellac and let them dry, and then we take toothpicks and we just stick it on the cake and we add like branches and stuff like that and then we stick them on with ribbon, and we make it whatever design you want. There's so many different designs out there, I mean my grandmother knows all of the designs, I have no idea. But, whatever you want. You can have three stories, my moms' is four stories high, it is like this big [motions with hands], with those flowers coming out everywhere, ribbon, birds, everything, it is really cool. KH: So, you have your mother's wedding cake as well? AW: Yes, my mother's' too. So she, even though my parents are divorced, she keeps it because it is of such significance, it's beautiful, it really is, and it sits up on the corner, next to my grandparents. So it's cool just to see both generations kind of just sitting there. It's really cool. My grandmother has hers at her house, but hers is huge. But it's amazing. KH: Are there any objects, you mentioned the Easter eggs before, can you just explain the significance and the process of making them and what it means? What it signifies? AW: Yeah, making Ukrainian Easter eggs is an Easter tradition, obviously with eggs. Like Americanized eggs, but we just add more designs onto them. It's a process, a very long process, but a very fun process. We take the egg, we put wax on it, we dye it, and then put more wax on it, light it with a flame, then we take the wax off it, and we have an Easter egg. It is really cool to be in that tradition and have that. I introduced it to a lot of my friends, my friend have made Ukrainian Easter eggs before, it's a lot of fun, we have a good time. But we display them over the house. We have two different displays at my house, personally. But at Easter time we put them all over. We have little stands that they stand on, and we just put them in the entrance or in the family room or up in my room, I have a few eggs of mine that I've made and we definitely show people, we kind of show them off because it's part of our tradition and it's part of who we are, and you know it's a good thing to be around. You know I want to introduce it to other people and I have and obviously they made some with me and it's really cool that I can put it on and tell other people who I am and where I am from and have them make it and be part of it. It's a lot of fun, lot of fun. MH: What were some of your friends' reactions, you said before that you loved to show them and tell them all about it, what were their reactions when they did it? AW: Well they were frustrated. They really were. For some of them it was their first times making them, and they sat there and just wanted to throw the egg and just be done with it, which is very understandable. But they went through it and in the end when they saw their end result and they got their egg, I think one of my friends almost cried because he was so excited to make an Easter egg. Their reaction to their finished product and all the frustration they've gone through trying to finish the egg is just priceless, it really is. They love it, they really do and it's really cool to see how much they actually love it. MH: Were there any other traditions that you introduced them too and how did they react to those? AW: Ukrainian dancing. They've seen my Ukrainian dancing. I dance at the festival, so they've come and seen that and are just like "can you teach me some of the steps". They just want to know and be so involved. The language. I've taught them little words and they're like "Oh I know what that is". So I've taught them, you know, little things. Like paska, they have eaten paska. And hren which is like horseradish and beets put together and my grandma makes it-it's the best- we put it on paska and they eat it and they love it. They love Ukrainian food. We actually pierogies, homemade ones and they loved doing that. Halupki, pigs wrapped in a blanket, they loved doing that too. So food, a lot of food, dancing, language, and stuff like that we've introduced to them. KH: So you seem to talk a lot about Ukrainian foods-- AW: Uh, yes-- KH: -- do you have any favorites? AW: Oh boy! What is my favorite? Kielbasa and kraut. I love kielbasa and kraut. We get our kielbasa from New York City, called Baczynsky's, from this place called Baczynsky's. They have the best meat, it's so out of this world, it's amazing. All Ukrainians work there, so we go there and all talk in Ukrainian. It's really cool to have that, you know, little shop in the corner. It brings me back to wondering what my great grandparents would be like because that's kind of what they did. So, it is really cool, and they knew my great grandparents, I mean the owner, we knew them for many years. So, it is really cool to see. I love pierogies [pronounces in Ukrainian] with onions [more Ukrainian], it is so good. I like it all to be honest with you. Obviously, I was raised food is food, you have to eat, and you eat it all or else it is rude. You have to literally eat everything on your plate and everything at the table. [Laughter] So you would have third or fourth helpings because my grandmother just says, "you're not done, you're still hungry", she just puts it on your plate and says, "you're eating it". That's what you got to do. You got to do what you got to do, right? But food is huge, huge in the community. I love Ukrainian food, love it. It's better than, honestly, most Americanized food, because it's homemade, everything is homemade, nothing's store bought other than like Kraut and stuff like that. But my grandparents would- another story- my grandmother would come home; my great grandmother would be sitting there making pierogis all day long. She had to feed like nine boys. MH: Oh, my goodness! AW: Yeah! And they ate a lot. So she just sat there all day long just making pierogies all by herself. Homemade. Just a ton of them every day, that's all they'd eat. It's also just dough and potatoes. So, they'd home grow the potatoes and they had the dough and it was just easy. And they weren't rich, they were very poor so that was just the cheapest and easiest way for them to eat, so it's cool. And knowing how to make them is just really cool. MH: I find it interesting, we interviewed a gentleman of Russian descent and he said that food is not a big deal in Russia-- AW: Really? MH: --so do you know of any other difference between Ukraine and Russia? AW: I'm not an expert on Russian culture. I'm really not. I do know that we share a lot of like the same- pysanky, we both do I believe. And I believe we both make paska, I believe. And Ukrainian dance is another thing. Ukrainian dance is huge, like we both dance very similarly, knowing other Russian groups. We've danced with them, we dance at the same concerts as them and stuff like that. We connect, and we talk, but they do dance very similarly to us which is another thing that's big. That's pretty much it that I know. Our languages are pretty similar too, that's why it is becoming Ukrainian-Russian kind of thing in more Eastern Ukraine right now. But other than that I don't know. MH: But here in the community, you do mix? You do have some interaction with Russian groups? AW: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially in dancing mostly. We just go to the same festivals and the same kind of concerts and stuff like that. Someone will ask us to dance and sometimes they have Russian dancing, sometimes Ukrainian dancing, and you know, sitting back and comparing Russian to our kind of dance is kind of dance is very similar, it really is. We have a lot of the same steps, but it is also very different with costumes and stuff like that. We have different costumes, which is cool to see. Other than that and the community, that huge in comparison. MH: What is the attitude towards what's going on in Russia and Ukraine now? AW: It's hard, it really is. I mean, it's hard to see. We, as Ukrainians here in the community we understand that what's going on is not every Russians fault, it really isn't. So us reaching out to other Russians is not the problem. It's just when they make it prominent that they want our country is when we have the problem. You understand? So, we, here in the community, a lot of Russians here really don't want this turmoil that is going on in Ukraine. They really don't. And so we connect with them and we, we talk about it and they're very supportive of us and, you know, some of them understand and want Ukraine to be a part of their country which is also understandable because we became independent, we were part of Russia first, but as we became independent, we want to stay independent. So that's why I think, for me, being Ukrainian is so strong. Like I'm so proud to be Ukrainian, I'm proud to say that I am a Ukrainian, whether we become part of Russia or not, I will always say I'm Ukrainian. You know? So, I think sometimes it brings tension but most of the time we just talk about it and we just things out, which is important. It really is. KH: So did your strong- oh what's the word I'm looking for -- your strong inheritance of Ukrainian values, did that come with how you were raised? AW: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. If I was not raised how I was raised I'd never have these values really. I was raised Ukrainian, my first language is Ukrainian. So Ukraine was always part of my life. I went to Ukrainian school, Ukrainian camp. So, it really was-- it really is a huge part of my life which is also why differentiates me from my American friends because it is just so-- it just consumes my whole life. It really does, and I am so proud, so proud to be Ukrainian. I mean, I don't know if this important but I've a tattoo of the Tryzub on my ribs to signify that I, no matter-- who try to take my heritage away from me, no matter who try to take my country away from me, I always have that and it is always gonna be mine permanently. So, I am very outspoken to be Ukrainian even though people sometimes get annoyed with it. I understand but like in fourth grade I was in the paper for being such a strong heritage from the beginning. It was just so strong. KH: Do you plan to stay in the Binghamton community here? AW: That's a good question. [Laughter] I would- I understand why I would like to because I have such a community here being Ukrainian and having the strong community I do here, but wanting to become a lawyer and what not, it's kind of more maybe I might travel. I do know many other Ukrainian communities, like Washington D.C., I know a Ukrainian community down there that I'm close to, I have friends down there. Wherever I go I will find a Ukrainian community, I will find a Ukrainian church. I mean this will always be my church. I want to get married in this church, no matter where I live. This is just, my church. But, wherever I go, I will go and try to go to a Ukrainian community, and join another Ukrainian community because I know we are all open and we all just want to be family. So, I probably will move, even though I know it's going to be difficult, but I will always carry that with me. MH: Is your family and community supportive of the fact that you know you might have to leave? AW: Yeah. My family is pretty- they, they understand. They know that I want to go on and travel and live my life and, you know, become successful and become who I am. And they know that I will carry on my traditions wherever I go. I mean if I marry and American, sorry, you're going to become Ukrainian. Like that's just how it is. You know what I mean? They are very supportive, they really are. They know that I have valued this my whole life and I will always value this. So it's just how it's going to be. MH: I probably already know the answer to this, but do you plan on raising your children and your family similarly to how you were raised? AW: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. Definitely. They will be raised, I will try to teach them as much Ukrainian as I know. But tradition wise and church wise they will be raised Catholic, they will be raised with always going to church on holidays, always celebrating Christmas. Christmas I will always come back here, for Christmas no matter where I live, no matter how big my family is. My grandma will always have Christmas, as long as she's living, at her house. And if she dies and they stop tradition, I'll start it up in my house, you know? So, it will always carry with me, through my kids, through my spouse, whatever. I'm very headstrong on this. MH: You just talked a lot about religion, how has religion influenced you in, you know, morality or just making life choices? AW: Very greatly. I have been raised Catholic literally since birth. So I portray that even in my friends' life. I'm not the type to try and convert them, but I am the type that says "I have to go to church, I'm going to church". You know, I have to wake up on Sunday at 8 o'clock in the morning, I'm going to do it, I have to go. So church and religion is very important in my life. I'm the more tame of my friends. I do do some "crazy" [air quotes] stuff, but religion is always in the back of my mind, morality is always there with my friends. I even try and like, not convert them, but try and teach them some ways. My friends have come to church with me and I've, you know, introduced them to my heritage and my religion and who I am. And it's part of who I am, I'm not going to hide it from the world, you know what I mean? So religion is a huge part of my life as well. MH: So how does Russian Orthodox differ from--? AW: Ukrainian Catholic? MH: Yeah. AW: Russian Orthodox Church, they have different, like, ways to baptize, different ways to do other things. They're kind of the same thing but they just do things differently than we do. So in desperation if we can't find a Ukrainian Catholic church if we go out of town we go to a Russian Orthodox because they're pretty much the same thing, they just do things differently. So it's comparable but it also has some differences to it. MH: It sounds like the communities is accepting of them even though you're different. So, there isn't any sort of [motions with hands to suggest conflict]--? AW: No, no, no. Not that I know of at least. I don't know. Not that I know of. We, as I said, we go to Russian Orthodox when we're out of town and at the beach or something like that. We still go to church on vacations, that's another thing, when we're out of town. So, yeah. KH: So what's your favorite part of the Ukrainian Community in Binghamton? AW: Oh, how big it actually is. Meeting other Ukrainians that are a part of the community that I didn't even know about. You know, I mean, I have a pretty big family here and I have pretty big connections, like outwards, even in Binghamton that don't go to this church and what not. But knowing other people that are a part of the community that I didn't know of beforehand is really cool. It's really cool to meet other people and bring them in and stuff like that. MH: You said you knew of a Ukrainian community in Washington D.C., how did you meet them? AW: SUM, up in my Ukrainian camp, literally, all across the country they come and you know it's cool to see other people from like, California, even Texas, I don't know- crazy. Philadelphia- huge, huge, Ukrainian community in Philadelphia. Washington D.C. I was in a debutant, as well. It's part of the tradition. And they had one down in D.C. and I know a lot of friends, my friends, who go down to D.C. and go to that debutant too, which is a very Ukrainian tradition. So that's how I know other Ukrainian communities and they're all over the world. MH: And how does Binghamton differ from these other communities or does it? AW: We--sometimes they go to other churches and we celebrate other religions and stuff like that but other than that we're really quite similar and that's why I've made so many friends because we have so many similarities. One of my kind of cousins, she's married, well not married, she's adopted into the family, from Ukraine actually. There's two of them, brother and sister, they are not brother and sister by blood, but by adoption and their story is just- man what they went through to come over here. Do you want me to tell you a little bit about it? MH: If you're comfortable. AW: Yeah, that's fine. My- I consider them my family- my cousins. They're very close to me, I consider them my siblings, you know, my sister and my brother. Their names are Tereza and Mykola. Tereza was very young when she was adopted, I believe she was three? Two or three? But Mykola was more six? Seven? Eight? Something around there. So he remembers a lot more. When they, when my cousins went over there to adopt them, they saw that he had scratches, he had bruises, he was beaten. They were both beaten over there in the adoption homes. So they saw both of them, and they saw them just curled up together. They were actually together, they meet each other and they said we just can't separate them. How can we separate them? We are taking them both, because they only wanted one. So they said how we can separate these two kids who connected a bond trying to protect each other. He did everything for her. She was behind him, he was in front and they were just cuddling. They were just holding on to each other, basically for dear life, and he had just so many bruises and so many- you know they were verbally, verbally- it was ridiculous what they would say to them. So they adopted them and they came over here, and Mykola, he does have a lot of problems now because he does remember a lot of it and he used to have nightmares and he's on a lot of medications and stuff like that, but he has actually become a personal trainer. He's very successful. She is going off to become a doctor. So they're very successful. They're normal, very normal. He's the one who more has problems, per se. He's had a lot of, a lot of life issues, but they've solved it and you know, they just have to go with it. You can't- you just have to- you know, you can't push them away. They both are very close to me, they're also from SUM, I know them from. They're from Yonkers. Yonkers is where their SUM group meets. But they're from Port River. So they live far away, but we still keep in contact. They are both amazing, amazing people. What they came from, how they, I mean, my cousins they really are amazing for saving them and taking them both in and with all the hardship they knew that was coming with both of them is amazing. They, they're just, it's incredible, it really is. MH: Wow! That's amazing. AW: Like the stories you hear of, you know, of terrible adoption horror stories. It really is true and you know, they're living proof of it but they're so successful. They're going off and I mean he's had problems his whole life, but look at him, he's a personal trainer. I'm so happy for them. They're very Ukrainian as well, both of them are like me. They're very outspoken about it, very open people, which is amazing too because you'd think they'd be closed off from the world, they're not. They're very open, very--want to bring everyone in and just talk to them about it, you know what I mean? So, which is amazing for them and it's- I don't- I don't even know half the stuff they both went through over there, but to see them now is just truly, truly amazing. MH: So even though they had, you know, such a hard experience there, they're still proud to be Ukrainian? AW: Oh yeah. MH: Do you think that comes more from your family and you know, how-- AW: How they were raised? --They were raised? Yeah, definitely. I mean, they understood just because they were in a bad situation and a bad home, I mean adoption companies and adoption homes over there and you know, foster homes over there are very different from them over here, even to this day. They're very poor countries so they, they really don't have a lot. So, but, they just were in bad home. I mean even over here in America that happens, they're just in a bad home and there was a lot more bad homes back then when they were first born then there are now in Ukraine, but they- amazing that they were saved and they're over here now and they, they understand the difference of a bad home and Ukraine. They don't- they don't connect the two. So they, which is awesome because that means they can celebrate that and I wouldn't be as close, I don't think that I could be as close to them, you know? They'd be more cut off, just more conservative about their life, but they're very very proud to be Ukrainian, just as I am. MH: When your cousins were looking to adopt, did they specifically choose Ukrainian because of their own history? AW: Yes. Yes. And they understood what was going on in Ukraine with adoption companies over there. So they understood what, um, they could possibly go through, adopting from Ukraine back then. But they, they did it and I'm so happy they did and they're happy they did. They are the two-honestly it's crazy- they look like their parents. It's so weird. They all look together and it's like "are you sure you're not born here, like are you sure you're not born from them?" But they're not and they look like each other, even though they're not. So how they grew up together, I think it was just a match made in heaven to be honest with you. It was perfect. Yeah. MH: Wow, that's amazing. AW: It is amazing, it's really cool. MH: Going back to the Ukrainian communities around the country, and you said you could go to D.C., do you think most communities would be open-- AW: Yeah. MH: Are they all very open? AW: I believe so, I can't tell you one hundred percent because I'm not- I don't- I've gone to other communities but I've never really associated that much into the communities. But if I went to other Ukrainian communities across the country I'd probably know someone, so I'd probably be brought in very quickly. But other than that they're very open, just like us, they're very open to everyone and even in SUM sometimes we have Americans that are there that just want to know the culture, you know? Just want to get involved and we accept them, they're there and we just deal with it, you know what I mean? It's cool. It's cool. KH: So going back to your cousins, what part of Ukraine did they live in before they were adopted? Or do you not know? AW: More middle. Middle East. From there, I believe. MH: Do you know how location in Ukrainian influences cultural identity? AW: Oh yes. Eastern Ukraine is more Russianized. Western Ukraine is more Polandized and then the middle of Ukraine is kind of both. So, since Russia is, you know, such a big influence, that's where Russianized Ukrainian comes from. Since Poland is kind of an influence where a lot of people fled from Ukraine to Poland, there, Polish is also Ukraine, Polish-Ukraine is also a thing too. And middle Ukraine is kind of both. It's more Eastern, more Russianized, that I know of. But, Ukrainian, the old old regime Ukrainian language still is huge in Ukraine. It's just not- it's just kind of going away since everything's becoming new with, you know, bringing up with Russia and Poland and stuff like that. So, that's pretty much the differences of how Ukraine can be and that's why it's hard to understand other people because sometimes they're speaking Polish-Ukrainian, sometimes they're speaking Russian-Ukrainian. You don't know, so that's pretty much the difference. MH: What is- where does the majority of the community members here in Binghamton hail from, Western or Eastern? AW: Western. Yes, Western. MH: So, what sort of practices distinguish them from Eastern? AW: It's not really practices, it's just the language. So they language is really what differences everyone from where they come from. I mean, like we said before hutsul, pysanky Ukrainian eggs, even there's hutsul dances, there's a lot of very- sickle dance is more from Western Ukraine, hutsul dance is more from Eastern. So there's different kinds of dances, songs, writings and stories from different parts of the country, kind of like our country, you know very- it's different, you know, wherever you go. So I think that's what--yeah. MH: Do you know when this community was sort of established, around what period and what brought them to Binghamton? AW: Oh boy, it was early nineteen hundreds. And they came to Binghamton--I think because so many people from Ukrainian descent were here so, um, they just kind of saw the potential and just made the community and built the church, and the church was in a different part of Johnson City, I believe. I forget what the old church is, but there was an old church that was made first and that's what-it was kind of- it was small. So they decided we needed a bigger church. We need- we have more people coming in, coming from Ukraine and more immigrants and stuff like that, so we built this church and that was a little later on, I think it was 40 years after the first church was built, I believe so, don't quote me on that, I'm not sure. But then we built the new church and that's when all these people who are now American born, they're bigger families and obviously my grandparents because they had a farm, they had a huge family and then other people in this church also had nine, ten kids, so that's why we built this church. MH: What sort of differences do you see between the older generation here and the younger, Americanized, American-born kids? AW: Obviously because we were born with such technology and such knowledge and what we were open too and what they weren't. They weren't born with all of the technology we have so that's a huge part, I mean we're all on our phones and they're like "why are you always on your phone?" you know. Kind of the normal older people kind of questions and stuff like that, but how they- how they tell their stories is different than us. I mean, they have such heart into how they talk even, they have such pain too and how they talk about certain things and sometimes you shut up and just listen, you know? They definitely--just how the media has been brought up, we brought up around the media, how they're brought up around the media too, which is a huge impact in how we are both raised and how we both communicate to each other because we were brought up with the openness of Google, you know, the news and whatnot like that, and they had no idea half the time. I mean my grandparents didn't have a TV, they had a radio. So that was it, that's all they listened to. So that's just the technology and media difference really is what is kind of hard about communicating with them but they're pretty- they understand and work with it, so it's becoming easier to be honest. MH: Is there anything you could learn from them? Or what you'd be interested in learning? AW: Oh I have learned a lot from my grandmother. She is an amazing amazing woman and I learned how to cook from her, I've learned how to write in Ukrainian from her, how to speak. I mean she was my babysitter so she's the one who really put all her traditions and all her knowledge into my brother and I. I have a little brothers turning sixteen and we both were raised Ukrainian, raised one hundred percent by mostly, kind of her. My parents both were at work so she had us all day long, so she kind of almost raised us in a sense. So her impact on how to cook, clean, how to act and stuff like that really is a big- what has made us who we are today. Another thing about Ukrainian is-it's not sexist but- the women stayed home and they cleaned and they cooked and they took care of the kids because that's what they had to do. The men went out and worked and were farmers and stuff like that, that's how she was raised. So that- she tried to put that in my brother and I's kind of brain, but not in going off to college. Going off to college was for- she wanted all of us to go to college. She wanted her kids to go to college that was her biggest thing, was just go to college, I don't care what you go for just do it. And so in that sense the women got to kind of do their own thing and become their own person, but it's still the expectation that they're going to stay home and cook and clean all that kind of stuff after their job and stuff like that. I am more of the person of I'm not going to stay home cook and clean. I'm going to obviously become a lawyer. So I'm going to have a lot of late nights and you know studying and stuff like that so I am more- I do understand her ways and I respect her ways, which I actually do take into some consideration in my life. When I have kids I want to stay home with them their first couple of years until they go to school and then obviously put them in daycare or whatever I need to do, or until whenever I come home or whatever, and even if I don't have to work and I marry someone "rich" [air quotes] then I'll stay home with the kids, you know? So--having her opinion in that way kind of, I respect it a lot and I take it in my life, you know, it's good to be around your kids and I understand it but also at the same time I want to become my own person and I want to become independent and successful first. So yeah. MH: Is this sort of the typical thinking still among the Ukrainian community here? AW: Yes. The older community, yes. It's how they were raised and that's how they think everyone else should be raised. And it's difficult for them to see all these, like, teen pregnancies and see all these young couples getting married. I mean, she was young, but like, getting married for no reason and getting just- kind of- throwing their life away kind of thing. It's hard for them to see and my grandma sometimes doesn't understand it as much, but she tries to- that's why I think she tries to so much teach us how to- how it should be and stuff like that. But I- I am my own person and I understand both ways and so I think that's why the community is so- that's how the older community is. MH: You mentioned you have a brother. Is he as passionate about Ukraine as you are? AW: Not as much to be honest with you. Really to be honest, he's really not as passionate. He's passionate though he just doesn't speak it as much, but he does understand it. He does, I mean, he portrays to his friends. His friends come and make pysanky too. So he, I mean it's not like he holds it off from the world but he's definitely open about it and he wants to tell people about it, he's just not as--into it as I am. So, I'm the one who's just Ukrainian all the way. He the one who "if I marry someone English, Ukrainian, whatever I'll decide that later on", you know that kind of thing. Yeah he'll bring them too obviously to Ukrainian traditions and stuff like that but he's more of an "I'll just go with the flow whatever, I mean, they're English, I'm Ukrainian, okay." That kind of thing. I'm more, "yeah you're going to be Ukrainian and we're raising my kids Ukrainian whatever". He's more just laid back about it. MH: I just wanted to get this straight for the record, so you, your first language was Ukrainian? AW: Yes. MH: And is it still spoken in your house? AW: Yes. MH: Can you read it and write it? AW: I can speak it, I can read somewhat, I can write somewhat. I can definitely write my name, I can write the date and months and stuff like that. I'm not fluent in reading, writing, or speaking it. I used to be, obviously. My first language was Ukrainian, I lost it after going to school. My counselor told my parents "You need to teach them English, not Ukrainian, because they're struggling". I wish my counselor didn't do that, because I would love to be more fluent in it, I really would. I've always thought about going in college and taking a course and becoming more fluent or something like that because it's really important to me. But yeah, speaking, reading, writing, is kind of difficult, but I make do and I can communicate with other Ukrainians, yeah. MH: Was is hard for you when you were small, having to learn English or, you know, was there a language barrier between you and the other kids? AW: I really don't remember, but I do know that it was, I believe it was difficult. There was a little bit of a language barrier, I was kind of slow learning English. English was always my hard- back in elementary school it was always hard for me. And even in middle school it was difficult for me. English was my worst subject. So learning English was always- I never understood- I never really understood it. Now I do, obviously. But I never really understood how the language works and stuff like that back then. So teachers would be frustrated with me, they'd say "oh you're never going to get very far with English" or "you're not going to do very good", "your essays are always going to be horrible" and stuff like that. So I mean they worked with it, but they became frustrated with me because I just didn't understand it and they didn't know why. I said "my language is Ukrainian" like "this is where I come from", like English is second to me so learning all the -oh man it was so difficult learning all the little words and what they mean and different-- MH: -- prepositions -- AW: Yes, oh my gosh, don't even get me started. It's still confusing to me, so it's- it was difficult, it was, but I made do and I mean obviously I wish Ukrainian was more promoted in my house. I mean my dad didn't speak Ukrainian, he kind of does now, he knows somewhat but he really didn't speak it so that was another thing. My mom, my grandma was really the one to enforce it. I wish they pushed it more because I would have made do but it's okay, it worked out, obviously it worked out fine. MH: You mentioned you went to Ukrainian school? AW: Uh-huh. MH: Can you explain what that was? AW: Yeah it was here, through my church-- MH: OK, so like a Sunday school? AW: Yeah, kind of like that, yeah- it was on Saturdays and it was in the morning and it was also corresponding with SUM [also known as CYM] and for SUM we have to do- there was different camps throughout the summer, so one week was dance camp, one week was like history camp. I mostly went to the all-around camp where we did kind of everything. So we had to recite poems and stuff like that in Ukrainian, so that was part of Ukrainian school was preparing ourselves for something called "zlet" up there, which is something kind of like- it was Memorial Day weekend so we all did like sports and we all recited poems and did all these things and we got points and we got medals at the end and trophies too, that was also really fun, being brought up like that. But speaking it was part of that, so I guess that Ukrainian school was preparing for SUM, which is Ukrainian camp, and speaking it. So that was kind of- it was all in one. MH: Where was SUM located? AW: Ellenville, New York. Which is about two hours away from here, so not that far away. It's a lot of fun. I'm going there obviously Memorial Day weekend. I don't participate anymore because I'm too old, but I just go to see all my friends and we all just hang out and just have the weekend there, we just go to vatra, which are bonfires, and we go to the dances and it's just a lot of fun, we just chill and hang out. Now it's cool because I don't have to do anything. I'd don't have to you know, learn all these poems, which was so stressful back then, but it was worth it, it was a lot of fun. I mean, it helped make me who I am today, going to Ukraine camp and having that diverse friend connection is really cool. Yeah. MH: Just going back to your father's family, I find this so interesting. We've talked about your mother's family and, you know, her Ukrainian heritage, but do you know anything about your Father's English? AW: He's American-born, his whole family was born here. He, I believe he said something about being of Indian descent, I'm not sure, one time he said that it might be possible. They- we're not as close to them. He really made family here, so. I mean we celebrate birthdays and stuff like that with them, I mean when my parents were married they celebrated a lot more with us, like Thanksgiving we celebrated with them, it was a big family thing. And, you know, first holy communions or like birthdays, they'd come, still, to my birthday parties, or whatever. Birthday parties are another huge thing. We have a party for every birthday, it's ridiculous. But, they--they're Christian so they still go to church and stuff like that so we have that kind of connection and that kind of, we can compare like that, but other than that we don't really see them as much so they just kind of do their own thing, we just kind of do our own thing. I mean, bringing them into the family through my mom and them getting married, they obviously took part of some of the Ukrainian traditions because obviously we are very contagious, [laughter] so we call on other people and they take part in it, and they miss it, they really do. But it was cool seeing how they came from just being English and not knowing any other culture and coming and marrying into this family and you know they even took some Ukrainian with them. They have pysanky around their house and things like that. My brother, not my brother, my father has a brother and a sister, and they're closer to the sister than he is to his brother and his sister has Ukrainian pysanky and embroideries from my mom's wedding and stuff like that that they have taken with them and display in their house, which is cool because we are not very close to them, but it's cool. MH: So how does it feel seeing, I like the word you used, "contagious", you know, seeing your Ukrainian history spread? And are you excited about that? AW: Oh yeah, it gets me so excited. I love talking about how I'm Ukrainian and I just like to portray onto others who I am and where I come from and how Ukraine is. I mean, you hear a little about Ukraine on the news, about being Russia trying to take over or whatever, I mean, some people have this certain opinion that- we are a poor country. I mean we're a pretty big country, but our population is pretty small. So, I like to introduce to other people, "Hey, I'm Ukrainian, you want to learn more?", "Obviously, yeah let's go", you know what I mean? So, I love to talk about, like, who I am and where I come from and really introduce the Ukrainian tradition to others because I think it's important. I want to hear about other people too. I love to hear about who other people have become and what other cultures are compared to mine, like Polish, they're different but they're similar. It's really cool to compare and meet other people and stuff like that. So I do the same and I want to know other people's, bring it on, like I want to compare I want to switch notes and stuff like that, but I definitely- it's so much fun talking about my heritage to others because we're so different. We really are, but we are also so much the same. It's cool. It's a lot of fun. MH: Just to conclude our interview, we have a few sort of general questions. AW: Yeah. MH: What is your favorite part about being Ukrainian? AW: My favorite part? Boy, that's a good question. I love talking about Ukrainian heritage and I love celebrating it. I love being with family and just having all of the traditions and really still practicing them. Because I know a lot of other people don't really practice their traditions. We practice every single one. We love our traditions. So traditions basically is my favorite part of being Ukrainian and celebrating them with family. MH: Do you have a favorite tradition? AW: Christmas. MH: Christmas? AW: Christmas. Because we just bring every family member from all across the country, even- we have family in Australia now, they come back-- MH: Wow! AW: Yeah! So it's really cool. I remember when she went away she spoke English and she had this thick New York accent, she went over there now she has an Australian accent. I'm like "wait, what's this, hold on, backup, reverse, wait, what?" [Laughter] So it's really cool to have them come over here, and she's actually getting married in June? July? Which is really exciting because we're going to have people from Canada, Australia, and America-- MH: Oh my gosh! AW: So yeah, it's going to be a big wedding. Seven hundred people. Crazy. Yeah, weddings are another thing that's a lot- Actually weddings is another thing that I love about being Ukrainian because the tradition of a wedding is totally different. The ceremony is about an hour and a half, two hours to get married, and then we basically party all night and party all day. So before, let me explain the wedding, so before you go to the mother's house, the bride's mother's house and you get the blessing of the godparents and they put a rushnyk, which is an embroidered cloth over your head and they pray with you and they wish you the best. And the groom is- well I don't know where the groom is honestly. But this is all at the bride's parent's house, bride's mother's house, and then they go to the church and they get married. The service is so beautiful. It's so long but so worth it, so beautiful. And they- after they get married we go to the reception and the reception lasts until we are done dancing to be honest and dancing is just all night long and then the next day we go to the parents' house and we have another party to celebrate their marriage and we just- we just chill and take the day to actually kind of regroup each other but we invite the whole family, so it's another hundred, hundred-fifty people over at the house. Every holiday, there is at least a hundred people that we celebrate with. So a wedding is another thing that I love. I love going to Ukrainian weddings because it's just so different than, like, an American wedding. You get married in like ten minutes and then you say your vows in like ten minutes and you're married and you go to the reception, you know what I mean? It is totally- there is so much more. And the reception, we do dances, certain dances with the mother and stuff like Ukrainianized dances and stuff like that that we partake in the wedding as well. Which is cool to introduce to Americans, they've never been to a Ukrainian wedding, they don't know what they're in for. I'm telling them, "You don't know what you're in for if you go to a Ukrainian wedding because there's a lot more to it than you think". So it's really cool, yeah. MH: You mentioned you now have family in, or at weddings you'll have Ukrainians from Australia, Canada and the U.S., do you know how their communities differ from communities in the U.S.? AW: Canada, I know more about in Canada than I do about Australia. Australia, she moved there like five, six years ago so I've never been there. Obviously I'd love to go there, and I will go there, because that's awesome. But I think the communities are pretty much the same in Canada and they are here, I think they do a little different tradition wise, different like, things, and stuff like that. It depends on their religion as well, that's another huge part of it. But, yeah they definitely- it's cool to see how others, like, their weddings might be a little different, so when they come to our wedding we're going to see how they react to certain things with the reception and stuff like that, but I think it's pretty much the same and stuff. MH: What's one thing you want everyone to know about Ukraine and being Ukrainian? AW: Oh, how, how spiritual we are. How open we are. How generous and kind and sweet we are. I want people to know that we are open to everyone and we just want to tell you about our culture. We just want everyone to know that we're Ukrainian and we're proud of it and we're not stubborn and hard and closed off as some people might think Ukrainians are. I just want people to know that we are very open and we want- we just want to tell you about our culture and just, open it up and have you come in and celebrate with us, as well as us celebrating with you. MH: Okay, is there anything else you'd like to add or want us to know? AW: I think that pretty much covered everything that I at least know as being Ukrainian. Other than food, lot of food, dancing, the language-- Obviously there are so many other stories that are out there of Ukrainians and stuff like that. Definitely being American-born but being raised Ukrainian has been a blessing and really, I'm so proud to be Ukrainian even though I am American. It's just amazing. It's an amazing feeling to have this background, it really is. MH: Do you identify more with Ukrainian or American? AW: Hmm. I- depends on what--certain things. I identify with being more Ukrainian, but then again I am very proud to be an American. I really am. I hold proud. I, honestly, I might become a politician one day, you never know, maybe President, you never know. Hey, why not? You go big or go home right? [Laughter] So, but being Ukrainian is just so strong for me even though I do love being an American. I really do. I celebrate everything, Fourth of July, and everything like that. I love it. It's an amazing feeling as well to have both cultures and really celebrate both. I mean it becomes extremely busy, but it's okay and it's a lot of fun having both backgrounds. MH: Kevin do you have any other questions? KH: Nope. MH: I think that just about covers it. Thank you so much. AW: Thank you. MH: That was amazing. AW: Good. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrianna Watson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Watson, Adrianna ; Hage, McKenna ; Hiller, Kevin Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Adrianna Watson is a college student majoring in Law and is a second generation Ukrainian immigrant who was born in Johnson City. She lives in the Southern Tier of New York with her large, extended family. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adrianna Watson.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 71:36 Subject The topic of the resource Watson, Adrianna. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Ukrainian folk dancing; Ukrainian cooking; Summer camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/33fb307a69f2ffdbe8a82db4dbe70f65.m4a c398f41ccb42a7a33adf0888faffb2cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Allan Gendelman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sergey Gendelman Biographical Text Sergey Gendelman is a first generation immigrant in America. His roots are in Moscow, Russia. He received a degree in electronic engineering. He went on to further his education in the Soviet Union as a programmer. He immigrated to New York City in 1993 and he worked a few odd jobs until becoming a programmer once again. He continues to live in New York City area with his family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 61:26 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Gendelman, Sergey Peter.--Interviews; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; City and town life--New York (State)--New York Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SergeyGendelman.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Russians; Immigrants; Soviet Union Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Sergey Gendelman Interviewed by: Allan Gendelman Transcriber: Allan Gendelman Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:41am Interview Setting: 2636 East 23rd Apt. #2 Brooklyn, NY 11235 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Sergey Gendelman: I was born in 1959 in Moscow in Soviet Union. Allan Gendelman: And uhh, (is it, is it) how was your childhood? Happy memories? Good memories? Or more of a negative? SG: My childhood, it's mostly happy. Probably everybody's childhood—when you are a kid, it's, everything is good. You have parents, you have someplace to live, you have food. So you are happy. You have friends to play with. So, you are happy. AG: So, tell me a little bit more about that. Where exactly did you live? Which neighborhood did you live in? SG: Okay, it was Moscow. It's the capital of the Soviet Union. It was not downtown, but it's some sleepy area of Moscow. AG: So, pretty quiet? SG: Yeah, pretty quiet. It used to be pretty safe. So, we could walk around and play around by ourselves, without parents. Just with friends. We have yards around our houses. I mean, not houses, buildings. Most of us have buildings. So, we have yards. And we have place to play. So that's how we spent our childhood. AG: It was more of an urban setting, right? More of a city, not a village, right? SG: No, it's a real city. Moscow is a huge city. It's just one of the sleepy areas of Moscow. AG: Sort of how Brooklyn is to Manhattan? We all live in New York, but Brooklyn is a little bit quieter. SG: Yeah, kind of. AG: So, tell me about the building you grew up in. How was that? Describe it to me physically. How big was it? How many floors? What did it look like? SG: Okay, it was a five story brick building. No elevators. We lived on the third floor. We had two rooms. When we moved in—we got lucky, we moved in a separate apartment, because most of the people lived a few families together in the same apartment, just one room, and shared a kitchen, and bathroom, and other common places. So we got lucky when I was born, my family got a new apartment. It was two rooms, and it was six of us living in two rooms. AG: So are you saying that at some point you did live in a communal area where you had to share the kitchen and other amenities? SG: Actually for myself, personally, I had never lived with other people in the same apartment. So, as I said, I got lucky. We got, we got a new apartment when I was born. It was too many people for our old apartment. It’s, so—and six people in two rooms. I don't know how—by Americans’ measure, it’s probably still too much. AG: It’s actually interesting that you said that. So you didn’t grow up in a communal setting, and you’re saying that’s how people usually lived? SG: Yeah, I would say 50 to 60% of the people live together, a few families to the same apartment. AG: So would you say you living in an apartment that you didn't have to share with other families in a non-communal setting—do you think that had any impact on you, growing up? Because I would think that if everyone else is growing up with other families, maybe the way they—not just the way they lived, but the way they grew up, the principles they grew up with could be different. SG: It’s difficult to say, because I didn’t have, actually, other way to live, so— So it's the only way I— I don't know what to say. I never lived in other conditions, so it’s what it is. AG: That’s true. Well, do you think you grew up a little bit differently than the people around you? The kids around you? SG: I would say that my condition was a little bit better than some of my friends. I visit them, my friends, and we play together, and I saw how they lived. My condition, it was better. Yeah. AG: Not just conditions, really. What I'm really asking is—so, you're my father, I've obviously known you growing up, and it seems apparent that—your friends and a lot of your family stayed in the Soviet Union and Russia, and you moved. And from what I know, this is something you always wanted to do growing up. SG: No, it’s— At my childhood, when I was a teenager, I was thinking I am living in the best country in the world. So, I didn't have any problems when I was a teenager. It happened later, when I understand what's going around me in other countries. And it's—most of what we know is just a lie, and it's not true, and I'm pushed to do what I don't want to do. And my understanding, it happened, probably, when I was about 15, 16, when I got more information outside. It was difficult to get this information back then. I was trying to listen to some foreign radio. It was not allowed. First I started listening because of music—foreign music—I loved it and I love it now as well. And also I listened to the news and I started thinking, “Most of what our government said to us, it's not true.” It's how it started, my different view on my country. But when I was a child, I was thinking, “I'm living in the best country in the world.” It was my belief. AG: You said you were pushed to do something you didn't want to do. What do you mean by that? SG: Uhh, okay. When you are in school, you have to be in Pioneer Organization. It's like Young Communist [League], you have to do certain things— AG: Like Boy Scouts? SG: Yeah, like Boy Scouts. But it's not your choice. You have to do it. Otherwise you will be like—umm, umm. AG: A traitor? SG: Yeah, a traitor. So it's going to be much more difficult for you to be in school, to be in a community. Like all people. And you will not have any future, if you do not follow what everyone else is following. AG: Your career choice, your school choice, the profession you chose to pursue in the Soviet Union: was that largely your choice, or do you feel like you were pushed to do that? SG: No, it was my choice, but it was a choice with a lot of limitation for some reason. First limitation because I am a Jew. And not all colleges accepted Jew people. And if they accept, it was just for a limited percentage, very very limited percentage. So—and you have to be a Young Communist to have more possibility to get into college. So it was my choice, but it was limited choice. AG: Why don't you tell me about what you did pursue? What did you actually study and what did you end up working as? SG: I graduated as an engineer. Electronic engineer. So what I studied was a lot of math, a lot of physics. Automatization systems. What else—and of course I have to learn some Communist Party history, and that was probably the most important subject in college. There's a special test for that, and if you fail it, you will not get a diploma of engineer. AG: And what did you go on to become? What was your job? SG: My first job, I was a construction engineer, so I developed some schematics for automatization system for agriculture. So I was obligated to work three years for some company I was sent to work. So there were some choices, but not many, and I had to work for at least for three years. After three years, I had a choice to quit and find a new job. So I quit, and moved to a new job in the field. AG: What was that field? SG: It was—I just—I was, special tools for auto manufacturing. It was electronic devices that I had to adjust. It was like mini computers so it was more interesting for me. So it's like work in field. I was not sitting in one place, but I was moving to different companies to help them to adjust the tools. AG: Was that the last job you held in the Soviet Union, or were there more? SG: No, I had then—when computers started to introduce in our environment, I started learning programming. It's how I started programming. So my last job was programmer, so it helped that when I moved to the United States I had some background to start with. AG: I want to come back to that, I want to ask you right now about your second job. You said you had to travel a lot for that job, right? SG: Yeah, I travelled in Soviet Union—cities, towns, different places, yeah. AG: So outside of Russia, right? SG: Mmm…Outside of— AG: —the Russian Federation. SG: Outside of the Russian Federation, yeah. Yes. AG: Was that common? Were people allowed to do that, or was that a special privilege that you got? SG: No, you could travel anyplace in the Soviet Union. What wasn't allowed was to travel outside of the Soviet Union. It was a real privilege, so to leave the country for travel, for business, for whatever it is, so it’s— So you couldn't just go wherever you want to go outside the Soviet Union. You had to get an out visa, not a visa to get in the country, but a visa to get out of the Soviet Union. And it was really difficult. Very limited people could do it. AG: Would you say it was feasible—would you say it was possible for people to travel the way you traveled for your work? Or were they too impoverished to do that?  SG: Uhh— AG: Because— SG: No, people travel, but what we earned, it was, it wasn’t big money. It’s money to feed yourself and your family, and it’s what you mostly spend your money for. I said I lived in Moscow in Soviet Union, and Moscow is absolutely different than other Soviet Union territories, because it was difficult in Moscow to buy some foods, but there still—there are foods in stores in Moscow. But from other regions, people come to Moscow to buy something: clothes, food, something. It was much much more difficult to buy something outside of Moscow. I was lucky, again, to be living in Moscow, not other regions of Soviet Union. I got to see how other people lived. Sometimes people were happy when I could come and bring some food with me and share it with people. They were very happy. AG: Tell me more about that. Did you learn anything while you travelled and you got to see how other people lived? Did that impact you in any other way? SG: Yeah, I saw people live much, much worse than people in Moscow and it—sometimes it was real poverty. Because in Moscow, I didn't see actual poverty. Everything was—most of, 90% of the people was—equally, I would say, not poor, but they couldn't afford any car, they couldn't buy any apartment, any—that was just, government could just give it to people, and if you don't have a good apartment or any… Everyone had an apartment. It wasn't, maybe, good, it was maybe overcrowded, and people didn't have money to buy something new; and a car was…a real, real luxury, to use a car. But you had public transportation, it was pretty much good, and I didn’t think—I never thought that I’d need a car, because it was beyond my possibilities, beyond my actual wishes. It’s not— AG: You're saying it was too luxurious? SG: Yeah, yeah. It was too luxurious. Only people who were in crime could buy a car. Or some famous people—academics, famous artists, some— AG: You're saying criminals could buy cars. SG: And criminals, yeah. Criminals could always buy cars, yeah. Because they steal something from other people. Or people actually who work for, actually, for government, or for Communist Party. They had more possibilities to buy a car. AG: What did you—so you’re saying you saw a lot of poverty when you left Moscow. Do you have any particular memories of your travels, any particular story you want to tell? Do you remember what kind of foods you ate, something like that? Something unique that you encountered that you didn't before? SG: Some trips were very good. I would say Georgia, I remember, it was a very nice country, very nice people, very kind. And so, food was interesting, it was different. It was a nice experience to go to Tbilisi, it was the capital of Georgia. But some region was very poor and I couldn't buy anything in stores and I had to use some cafeteria in places I worked for, and it’s, it was, I couldn't eat what they fed me. So I was trying to do my job, instead of a week, let’s say for two days, and just leave, because it was not a pleasure to stay there, so I worked fifteen hours a day, just to leave the place. AG: What did you eat in the cafeterias? Describe the food. SG: Oh, ok. I don't know. It was some cutlets. And okay, if you don't have bread to, to not taste of the—or smell whatever you're eating—I don't know what it was, but it was something not edible. And always, when I went on a trip, I always had some food with me, so I could have my breakfast in the hotel room, so—and some late dinner in hotel again. So in some places, I just didn’t eat anything at all during the day—just worked for twelve, fifteen hours and ate just early morning using my own food I brought from Moscow, and late, late dinner. And just, my dream was just finish the job I had to do and just leave it, leave this town I stay in.  AG: How long did you do that job for? How long did that last for? SG: It's about six years, I’d say. Six or seven years. It was, it's not for the same company. I used to work for one company, for—then I moved to other company, this offers better conditions, but still the same kind of job. And then I move to some plant and I start actually to study programming, and that's how I start as a programmer. I start actually fixing computers first, learning the hardware part of the computers, and then study programming and converted to programmer. AG: What made you do that job for six years? It sounds like you weren’t happy doing it—what was the motivation? Did you not have the opportunity to find another source of employment, or did you just not think about moving? SG: No, I didn’t say I wasn't happy about the job. I was happy about the job; I liked it. But I wasn’t happy in some places I visited to do my job, just because of conditions I lived in. But the job itself, I liked it, it was good. AG: Why don't you tell me about how you got started in programming? So you said you started studying hardware first, but then you moved on to learning programming? SG: Yeah, it was—I was working for some company to—adjusting their tools for, uh—tools with controllers. So it was an electronic job. And then the company start—they created a department of, a computer department—it just started in Soviet Union. So—and I was, at the beginning, I actually helped the company to choose computers, to buy computers, to set it up, and fix if any problem happened. And parallel, I learned how to program, and I went to college again to get some programmer diploma, but it’s at the same time I was working for the company. So, and that's how I started programming. When I come to America, actually it’s not the same kind of programming I did in the Soviet Union, but—and I also went to school to learn something new, and—but it was much, much easier for me to be in the field, because I already had some basic knowledge and knew how to program. AG: Do you remember exactly how you started programming? Did you just discover it? Did someone tell you about it? Do you remember the day you decided to become a programmer? SG: No, it wasn't a day. It was, as I said, I just started to know something new, and it’s, I learned more and more and more, and I did some projects creating some software. And at the same time, I was responsible for supporting computer hardware, so I did both jobs, so that’s how my knowledge—that's how I gained more knowledge. So I create more—some, create more software. AG: Was it someone in particular that opened you up to programming? No? SG: Not really, as I remember, no.  AG: You were just interested in it? SG: It was interesting. It was something new to learn, so I started learning. AG: You said you went to school, and you worked at the same time when you were learning programming. Was that challenging? Because I would imagine having a full time job and going to school is always challenging. SG: Oh, I don't remember if it was challenging; it was interesting. It was about thirty years ago, so I don't remember. It was interesting. When you are interested in something, it's much easier to be successful in it. AG: So you said you came to America and you eventually became a programmer, and you said it was a lot easier for you to do that because you were in the Soviet Union and you already had some sort of training, some sort of education, some sort of experience in the field. Did you come to the United States and right away become a programmer? SG: It actually was my third job. I am not, um—when I was a student in United States, I did some jobs, you know, just temporary jobs, just to feed my family. And you just was born, and so—and so we didn't have much money, so I had to do some temporary job just for small money, but it was very helpful. AG: Tell me about those jobs. Tell me about those temporary jobs. SG: It's something, I distributed some advertising— AG: —flyers? SG: —Flyers, yeah. What else? I can't remember now. [Pause] Ok, it’s— AG: You don't recall? SG: I don’t recall, it was— It wasn't the happiest days of my life. AG: No, you didn’t like it, so you— SG: It was difficult and it was, I mean, not what I would like to do. It’s—it wasn't the reason I came to America, to do this kind of job. But it was a good experience, to—and it's what I had to do for my family. So it’s not good, it’s not bad, it’s what happened. I knew immigration is—when I moved from Soviet Union to America, I knew it was difficult to absorb a new style of life and, uh, to start speaking in English, it was most difficult, probably. To understand what people are saying, to speak myself, to explain what I would like to other people. So it was difficult times. But I did not regret I did this move. AG: So you are saying the language barrier is what was the most difficult part—not understanding what people are saying.  SG: Right. AG: Was there anything else that was difficult? Was it culturally different? Were people different here than they were back where you were from, from the Soviet Union? Or are people just people everywhere? SG: Most of the people are people, as you said, everywhere. And I had my close relative here, my uncle, who helped me a lot with—he explained to me a lot of things, what’s going on around me. And so for all my questions I could call him and ask, “What does it mean? What should I do with it?” and how to behave. So I was open for new relationships, for new people, for everything new, so—so, I was open for it, so I accepted it as it is. AG: Was there any cultural shock? Anything in particular that surprised you? SG: Usually when Soviet people come to America first, what they’re shocked about is when they go to stores and see how many foods in stores and how many clothes in store—it’s mostly what [made] people shocked. It didn’t shock me because I was prepared for this, because I had some information from people who lived here already, so—and I communicate with them before I left the Soviet Union—so I was prepared for that. It was interesting, but I wasn't shocked. What actually—I was not shocked, but very pleased with, is that people smile, on the streets, on transportation. Whatever you are going to, you see people smile to you. Not as in the Soviet Union. It's not in the behavior of Soviet people. Probably still they don't smile. AG: Smiling. That was big for you? SG: Yeah. Smiling was actually the most—most—[pause] AG: —positive— SG:  —positive, yeah, impression that I got. AG: So was it your first time in America when you immigrated here? Did you immigrate straight here and this was the first time you’d ever been here, or had you been here previously? SG: No, first I went here in 1990, just for travel. My uncle sent a special invitation to me, because otherwise I couldn't leave Soviet Union. It was already opened up by Gorbachev for people to go around the world, but it was still limited, so you had to get some special invitation from other country to be allowed to go. So my first experience, I went in 1990, I said. So I spent a month here in America, in New York. My cousin got me around to other countries—other cities—so I fell in love with America, so I decided, “so I am going to leave Soviet Union for United States.” AG: Was it—that month you spent in America, was it like you expected it to be from the information that you got from the American radios in the Soviet Union, or were you surprised at the living conditions? Tell me. Tell me how it was for you. SG: Surprised? Actually, I already had information, so I wasn't surprised too much, but I loved New York itself, I mean, Manhattan, how it’s—I was happy to see it with my own eyes, not on television, or some other image, some other sources. But I was—maybe I was shocked when I saw, first time, Manhattan, so I was—felt in love. I came as a tourist, so it's different when you live in a country and when you just travel. You see a different side of life. Everything was good. People were nice to me. It was a pleasure. I knew if I am going to move in permanently here, it will not be so easy to be part of this country, these people. So I knew it was challenging, but I was ready for that, for these difficulties. When I moved in permanently, I was open for all difficulties I met. AG: Why do you say that you knew it was going to be challenging? What led you to believe it was going to be challenging? SG: Because my English was very, very, very limited, and I knew to do some job I had to speak fluently—I had to understand people, what they’re saying, what I’m supposed to do, as my responsibility of some job. So I knew it's always difficult, because when you live in one country and everything is familiar to you, and people speak the same language and you knew all habits, everything around, everything, how it works… New country, absolutely new country with different culture, different people, language and everything—it's always difficult. But it's a good experience. But I'm happy you don't have to get through it because you were born here. It's your country—and it's my country too, but it’s your country from the beginning, and you don't have to get used to it. AG: What kind of other difficulties did you face when you came here? Was poverty an issue? SG: You mean in the United States? AG: In the United States, yeah. SG: Poverty…I mean, yeah. I had some money to pay for my rent and for food, but I learned how to do shopping so I knew where sales, I knew how to buy things so I could save a lot of money by doing it. I didn't have a lot of money to buy any extra, it was okay. I knew it was just temporary for some period of time. My goal is to find a job I would like and everything would be changed. AG: When you came here, you grew up eating kotleta and borscht and all of that really Russian Soviet Union stuff. Is there anything that you came here and you were really—you really liked or you really didn't like, out of the foods? SG: Actually, I like to try new food. First when I saw sushi, I couldn’t try it because I'd never eaten raw fish before and it was really strange for me. But my friends showed me how to eat it, so I tried and I didn’t like it, first time. In some period of time I tried it again, and it was a little bit better. And now I love it. I miss it if I don't have it for a couple of weeks. So I miss it. So, I love to have—to go to different restaurants to try new foods, and to different country and different style food. So—I’m open for that, I like it. AG: Did you buy any frozen food, anything in the supermarkets? I mean, if I lived in a country where I was really limited in the cuisine I had and the kind of food that I had, and I came to a country where there’s all these different foods, I think I would just buy everything. I would just want to try all this strange new food. Is there anything—did you do that? Or did you only try to buy food that you knew or were familiar with? SG: I buy mostly what I knew. I don't buy new food because I don't know how to cook it—maybe very rare, some… But, most of—to try new food, I just go to some specific restaurant: Turkish, Lebanon, or maybe Indian. So—and actually, with Indian food as well, when I first tried, first time trying Indian food, I couldn't eat it. It was very spicy, I couldn't eat it at all. But now, again, I get used to it, and time to time I like to have Indian food. But actually I'm still trying, as I start—when I came to this country and I tried to save money for shopping, I still do it. I try to save money and to buy most of the food on sale and save this money for, actually, what I really would like to do all my years when I was living in the Soviet Union, to travel to different countries. Because I was real, real, actually limited to see the world. Now I enjoy it, and so I’m trying to explore as many countries as I could. AG: Yeah, we just came back from Italy, so it’s interesting that you said that. We do travel a lot. Do you think that the way you’re living your life now—what you just described, saving every penny that you can so you can get the things that you want—do you think that's something uniquely Russian? Do you think that’s something you do because you were taught to do it? To save every penny? Because from my experiences here in the US, people aren't so conscious about their spending, what they spend their money on, and they don't wait for sales. If they want food, they just go buy it. SG: I don't know why I do it. Maybe it's in my nature to not overpay for something if I could actually save money. It's like for me, sometimes it's like sport, you know? If I see something I could buy for half of the price, it’s— So I'm looking for bargains. I prefer to visit two, three different supermarkets to buy food on sale and save money than just go in one place and buy whatever I see. I don't know. Maybe it's in my nature. Not because I’m from Soviet Union, because I know other Russian people, and they actually don't save money for food and buy whatever they want to. AG: I guess it depends from person to person. SG: Yeah, I think so. AG: So, you came here. You handed out flyers. You didn't live in the best conditions. What was the first apartment that you lived in? Or the first place that you lived in? SG: It was an interesting experience. We just start looking, and first we stay with our relatives for a couple of weeks and start looking for apartments, and what we saw, it was killing us. It was dirty, it was with cockroaches and with—it was something with awful smell. Actually, it’s because we had little money to spend, we were looking for very, very cheap apartments, so— My wife was crying and she said, "Okay, I would like to go back. I don't want to live in those apartments." Because in Moscow, it was a small apartment, but it was clean—it belongs to us so we care about that and it was clean, and okay, it smelled good— Okay, but when we saw an apartment which was just renovated, and that it was clean and no smell, and so we loved—it was small, it just was studio with kitchen. So we loved it and we moved in—it was just two of us, it was more than enough for two of us. It was in the Bay Ridge area, a good safe area in 1993 when we moved to America. So that's how we started. But then, when you were born, we had to move to a new apartment, a little bit bigger. But I already worked at that time, so we could afford it. It wasn’t a good apartment. It was two bedrooms, a two bedroom apartment, but it was small and not as good. So in a few years, I keep working, and we moved again to a much better apartment, still in Bay Ridge. AG: And you liked that apartment? SG: Yeah, we liked that apartment. And the best part of that was the view. It was a view on Downtown and Midtown Manhattan, Statue of Liberty and Hudson River, and the view was just amazing. It was so I could look at it every day for a long time, and it always was different because of how the sun is— AG: —shining— SG: —shining through, yeah, and nighttime, so it was very good. And I was—so enjoyed it, probably, until 9/11. Because when I saw everything that happened on 9/11, it actually really changed me. Because I had been working very, very close to the Twin buildings. I saw it just from a very, very close distance, how it happened, how the building collapsed, how the planes hit the buildings. It was a nightmare. AG: You worked close by there? SG: Yeah. Not quite about a mile, I would say less than half a mile from the Twin buildings. AG: Would you say that changed your view of America in any way? SG: Not America itself, but something really changed. It was like, you know, you lived in some sunny conditions, and then clouds came. It's like everything is the same, but something is different, and you couldn't explain, actually, what’s changed, but it was. AG: Did it impact your view of how safe you felt in America? Did you feel safer before 9/11, or the same? Do you still feel safe? Do you feel safe? SG: Pretty much, I do feel safe, but before 9/11 I didn't think about safety, actually. The Bay Ridge area was very safe, and so we could walk around at midnight without, actually, to be afraid of people around us. Because in—when I left Russia, when I left Moscow, it was the 90s and it was very, very dangerous there, so—it was very dangerous just to walk around. If you don't have to go out, it's better to not go out. But when I came to America, it was very—I was so impressed, I don’t feel any dangers around me. AG: Did you—so you had this really safe view of America, and you could go out and it was much safer in your eyes than it was in Russia when you left. Did you think about going back to Russia to live there because— SG: No, never.  AG: Never? SG: Never again. AG: You didn’t feel like the dangers of another terrorist attack warranted going back? SG: Whatever could happen, now it's my country. Whatever will happen, now I will be part of that. So I'm not thinking about to go back, whatever it is. AG: So would you say you identify as an American now? If someone asked you what you were, would you say you’re an American, or— SG: Definitely. AG: You wouldn't say you were a Russian? SG: Nope.  AG: Interesting. SG: My roots are Russian. I still speak in Russian, that’s…[inaudible] AG: What do you think it means to be an American? What is an American?  SG: I don't know.  AG: What does it mean to you? SG: I just live in a great country. It doesn't mean I like everything that is happening to our country, and it could be much better, and it's probably getting worse than it used to be in the 90s. But I believe in America and I believe we could—but I believe we could do better. AG: Do you think it's worse than when you came here? SG: What do you mean? AG: You said you think it's not as good as in the 90s, right? SG: Yeah, and because of, it's because of economy, because of, actually—probably it started from 9/11. It's how the country started changing, and—we are not so open as we used to be, and that's what I liked about America. AG: What do you mean by open? SG: Open to—ok, open to do things we would like to do. We are not limited to anything by, but by law only. And—so I understand, some things are done for our safety, and I understand it, and I agree with it. But it’s—it is different now, than it used to be. So when you go somewhere, and now when you—we just came from Italy, and when you go to airport, it’s a few checkpoints when security screens you. I remember days when we just go to the airport and sit on the plane and go to another country without any screening. As I said, I agree it needs to be done and it's for our safety, but it’s different. AG: So you're saying when you went to the airport before 9/11, there wasn't any security? There was no—? SG: There was security, but they didn’t check actually your luggage. They didn’t check you, so you just pass by on your flight. AG: Really? SG: Yep. AG: Do you feel confident in America’s future. Do you feel like I will have as future—a good as life as you did? As better, or worse? SG: I don't know. It looks to me that the labor market is much worse than it used to be in the 90s. And I see a lot of young people who graduated in colleges, they couldn't find a job. But I believe America could change something about that. To create more workplaces—so for your future, as well. AG: Yeah, a lot of people in my school, in my college, they are very cynical about their futures, and from what we talk about in class, a lot of them feel like their futures won't be as good as their parents’. Granted, their parents, a lot of them weren’t immigrants like mine, so they didn't have to go through as rough conditions, but they don't seem as hopeful for the future as perhaps I do, or you do. Do you think I'll earn as much as you, or have as good a job as you? Do you feel confident in that? SG: Not so comfortable. Not so confident. But I still believe in America. America could do something about that. I believe in it. AG: Do you think hard work—if you work hard in America, you will be successful here? That you will achieve your dreams here? SG: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. If you work hard, if you have knowledge, if you have ambitions. You could do whatever you want to do, you can achieve whatever you want to achieve. AG: Where do you think that attitude comes from? Do you think—we were taught growing up that that’s the American dream, an American idea. But I seem to think that that’s a Russian ideal. That if you work hard, you will succeed. That you have to work hard, that you have to, that you really have to try. You really have to hustle, that you really need to bust your ass to do everything you can and go to sleep tired. SG: I don't think it's a Russian idea. In Russia, you could work hard and you could be very smart, but to be successful, first of all, you have to have connections. Only connections could help you with some goals, not yourself. There are some exceptions, but I mean for a majority of people, it's just by connections, not by your talent. And again, in Russia, back in my time, if you’re Jewish, you are very limited in the position you could obtain, so… A lot of limitation for Jewish people. At least used to be. AG: From what I know, maybe not you, maybe not Mom, but my grandparents—your parents—had to do two or three jobs on the side just to earn money. Right? SG: Most of the people just work one job. We didn't pay for much, we didn't have mortgages, so we don’t have to pay. We didn’t have to pay for mortgages, just for food. Just save some money for vacation. It was actually the purpose to earn money. Salary wasn't big, but you didn't have to pay for education, you didn't have to pay for medical service. Medical service wasn't good, but you didn't have any choice. And probably you—you didn't have to pay for that, but you had to give some gifts, something meaningful to get good medical service. And sometimes you had to bribe to get into college as well. AG: To give bribes, rights? SG: Yeah. AG: You'd say you are a hard worker. You and Mom work hard, right? SG: I think so. AG: Why do you think you do it? What makes you work hard? SG: First, I like my job. And actually, I have to earn money. I don’t know, if I had enough money for all my needs, maybe I would afford early retirement and travel, and go spend my life, maybe more interesting than just work, sometimes much more than eight hours. But I have to earn money to pay my mortgage. It’s just twenty-six years left to pay off my mortgage. I hope I will still be alive at that time. So I had to do it. And I like to do it. Sometimes it’s difficult, and it’s a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. But it’s—what is it? What it is. AG: So you do it for your family? You do it so that you can afford the things you want in life? SG: It's for my family, to be able to travel, to be able to pay for your education. For other things. To go to restaurants sometimes. To afford things I would like to afford. AG: I think we could do this for many, many days, weeks. It's been an hour, and I did learn a lot about your life. Is there anything else you’d like to tell me? Anything in particular about your experiences in life or here? Or anything you’d like to share with people? Maybe some hopeful message? SG: I don't know, actually. AG: Any advice you would give for people to be successful? SG: Be a good student. Learn a lot. Be a hard worker. To be ambitious. And you could achieve whatever you would like to. AG: Thank you very much, Sergey Gendelman. That was a great interview. Thank you for that. SG: You’re welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sergey Gendelman Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gendelman, Sergey ; Gendelman, Allan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sergey Gendelman is a first generation immigrant in America. His roots are in Moscow, Russia. He received a degree in electronic engineering. He went on to further his education in the Soviet Union as a programmer. He immigrated to New York City in 1993 and he worked a few odd jobs until becoming a programmer once again. He continues to live in New York City area with his family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sergey Gendelman.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-13 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 61:26 Subject The topic of the resource Gendelman, Sergey Peter.--Interviews; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; City and town life--New York (State)--New York https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56a6102152e825a88f3ba0b05ff2d45f.m4a 8e1e70b1e761c14b39c9aed30bb2d620 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephan Wasylko Biographical Text Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:37 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=StephanWasylko.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Refugee camps; Diplomatic and consular service; Auburn (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Stephan Wasylko Interviewed by: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Transcriber: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Date of interview: 10 April 2016 Interview Setting: at St. John, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Zach Nasca: Hello, so we're here with Stephan Wasylko and we're going to do an interview. My name is Zack and I'm here with Emily. It's Sunday, May 10, 2016 and we're at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church and we're going to ask you some questions. So first, I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit about yourself and your background. Stephan Wasylko: Well, I am a son of Ukrainians, born in a displaced persons camp in Austria, Salzburg, Austria, in 1948, where my parents wound up after the war. In 1949, they immigrated to the United States, landed in Ellis Island and went off to Kingston, North Carolina, where their sponsors, it was a Christian organization, sponsored them. After a year there, a very difficult hard year as indentured servants, they made their way to Passaic, New Jersey where they lived for three years and then ultimately settled in Auburn, New York which is not far from here. That's where I grew up, went to high school there. I went onto Syracuse University where I got a degree in international relations. Right out of university, I was drafted into the US Army. Following my military service, I went to the University of Toronto where I got an MBA in International Trade and Finance. I worked my way to Washington, and I joined the Foreign Service and so I spent over 35 years in the US Foreign Service with postings in Washington, some short time duty in China, served with my family in tow in Prague and Budapest before the wall came down. I worked in Vancouver at the Consulate General there. From Vancouver, we went to Kyiv, Ukraine, which, this was after the Soviet Union imploded. I helped open the US embassy there. After that, I came back to Toronto where I served for five years at the US Consulate and my kids finally had a North American high school experience. They both graduated from high school there. From Toronto, I was assigned to a US embassy in Moscow. From Moscow, we went to London, UK and from London, UK we were assigned to Ottawa and I retired from Ottawa with personal rank of Minister Counselor. Emily Greenwell: So you've been all over! How old were you when your family settled in Auburn? SW: Well I was about 4 years old, but I was 9 months old when my family came over. They had basically two babies. My sister is 2 years older, I was 9 months old, so we were a family of four that came to the United States in March of 1949. ZN: And how long have you been in Binghamton? SW: Since retiring, since 2010. My wife grew up in this parish, she's originally from Johnson City. We met in Washington, DC, and our two children are grown. They're both working in the city, so aside from having family and her roots here, this is a convenient place for us to retire— my close enough to our kids without actually being in their hair. It's an easy drive there. Our daughter is now a professional fashion photographer in the city, and our son, she graduated from Newhouse School, Syracuse and our son graduated from Ithaca College and he worked with AIG, he's now with Marsh, big insurance companies. EG: When your family came over, you said that they went with sponsors, but then did they have any reason they moved to New Jersey, then Auburn? Was it just for work? SW: Yeah, it's an interesting story. My mother and father were the only ones from their families that ultimately came to the United States. The rest all remained in, well, that's a whole different story because they didn't even remain where they grew up because of a lot of turmoil after the war in Europe. People resettled so they were forcibly moved. My father's family was moved to the east, and my mother's family was moved to the north of the Baltics. Both of them were taken as young people as slave laborers by the Germans who were on the farms in Austria. So, you know, around the turn of the century when this parish was founded, there were people coming to work in America in the coal mines, some graduated from the coal mines and into the shoe factories and the next generation was with IBM. My mother's father actually was in America several times, working in Pennsylvania, in Elmira, had a big textile industry there. He would come for a year at a time and then whatever he saved up he would go home. It was basically free movement of labor and the labor was needed here so it was quite open to immigration. A lot of the companies actually had recruiting offices in central Europe at that time. My mother had an uncle who actually came at the turn of the century, 1900s, and remained. He married and had a family there. My mother, just remember that she had an uncle living in Passaic. When they were in North Carolina, it was so difficult for them. They were working on a tobacco farm and from sunrise to sunset, my dad would often say the treatment was worse than what they had under the Nazis working during the war. So he managed to get a ticket, bus ticket, got on the bus, traveled to Passaic, NJ and started walking the streets looking for the copulas on the churches and he came across one church, went there and asked them if they knew Mr. Michael Pinchak. They didn't but they told him to try this other church, so three churches later he actually met people that knew him. He was of that parish. He went to talk to him, had to introduce himself because he had never met him, talked his way into the house, convinced these people he was who he said he was. The uncle had children that were my parents' peers, they were around the same age. My father said, "We need help," and the uncle said, "Well, I'll have vacation next year, I'll come down and see how you're doing." My father said, "By next year we might be dead." So one of the daughters took an interest, hired a small truck and driver, drove my father back to Kinston, NC, and essentially picked up my mother and my sister and me, and whatever major possessions they had, and they moved to New Jersey. They worked there for three years, they found jobs. My sister, I think, was just starting kindergarten, and I wasn't even in school yet. Then my father came up to Auburn, New York, with a friend who was living in Auburn. She was, again, one of the earlier immigrants and found that they had a Ukrainian community in Auburn and met people. While he was away, we were living up above a grocery store. It was a four story building and we were on the third floor. The weekend my father was away, the person living above us fell asleep smoking and the whole place was incinerated. I remember as a child, firemen coming and pounding on the doors. We were back standing out on the street watching this building burn. So when he came back from Auburn, whatever possessions they had at this point were water damaged and ruined, it was terrible. He said, "Forget this, we're going to go up to Auburn." For them, Auburn was much nicer. It was green, it was more, you know, sort of pastoral setting and more like what they were used to back home, whereas Passaic, New Jersey, was urban and quite alien to their experiences. So, a long way but nothing is simple. EG: So I guess they were kind of fortunate that they had those connections. SW: Yeah, if you didn't have family then the church would be a place where people would go just gravitate because if you're from the same faith and the same nationality, people reach out and support immigrants. Now, we've got a third wave of immigrants coming. Not too many here, but since Ukraine became independent there's been a huge influx of immigrants coming to United States, but they go where there are jobs and opportunities and unfortunately, this area doesn't offer too much. ZN: Now, when you were in North Carolina, were you part of a church community there or not until you moved up? SW: No, there was a protestant church and they were just doing good work. The ladies of the church were very helpful. They'd bring food and clothes, but we were pretty much sort of a welfare case. The farmer they worked for was basically just using them as labor, but the church was Christian and provided Christian help and care. EG: How did you and your wife meet? She's also Ukrainian, you said, right? SW: She is. I'm an immigrant, I had a green card until I took the naturalization exam and got my citizenship. She's third-generation Ukrainian, so her grandmother immigrated and settled here and she came in as a 12-13 year old girl when there was a lot of movement. She married here, my wife's mother was born here and all her aunts and uncles were born here. She said she grew up here, very much a part of this St. John's Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church community—which is a church, but it was also a social life for them where they did Easter Egg painting, they sang in the choir, did Ukrainian folk dancing, they had Ukrainian festivals. So kids would, after school, grade school or high school, would gravitate here. We had, at that time, a wonderful pastor. He was married, his wife was great. She was very artistic. They were very inspiring for these kids, and are really responsible for a lot of the people's advancement here in this parish that went onto bigger and better things. EG: Is your wife in the same line of work as you? You said you met in Washington, right? SW: She went to the Fashion Institute of Technology and she was working in Washington as a graphic designer. She's an interior designer by trade and profession, but she was working as a graphic designer. I was in Washington looking for my first job, it was 1976, and there was a celebration in Shamokin, Pennsylvania. It was celebrating the first Ukrainian church in North America that established, and I was interested in going to that. I had a friend, I asked him if he was going. He said he was but he was going to go with this young lady that he had met, and I said, "Well great, if she has room for another person, I'll be happy to go with you all. If not, I'll drive up alone." Fortunately for her, she had room in the back seat, so that's how we met. Yeah, so it had a Ukrainian context in that regard. So we met and after that we started dating, and the rest is history. EG: When your parents came over, was there anything, any sort of family heirloom or artifact that they brought over with them? Anything that's been passed down to you? SW: They brought a tremendous amount with them, but none of it was material. What they brought was, I think first and foremost, their faith, which they shared with us. It sustained them through really hard times because they were removed from their families. They also brought with them these great traditions, how we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which were on a different calendar. We're on the Julian calendar, so we celebrate Christmas on July 7 instead of December 25. In America, again in a good part thanks to Russian propaganda, people call it Russian Christmas. Well it's not, it's the Julian calendar and it's Orthodox Christmas. Then Easter was another tradition we observed. Our Easter this year for example is May 1, so we can be on the same Sunday or up to 5 weeks apart. Ours has a lot to do with Passover, because the last supper was Passover supper, and so that was sort of embedded in us as children and my parents really made it fun and special, so we always felt different. We didn't always have the neatest sneakers or the nicest tee shirts, but we had something no one else had. Plus, our parents were very nationalistic in terms of preserving their language and history, so at home, around the kitchen table when we were eating dinner, and we did a lot of family dinners that was very much a part especially on Sunday, my father wouldn't let us speak English. We had to speak Ukrainian, and for me and my profession it turned out to be a real gift to preserve it. That was very valuable. They taught us how to read in Ukrainian, we went to Ukrainian cultural programs. We participated in various holidays, Taras Shevchenko was the poet laureate of Ukraine, lived in 1860s, sort of the embodiment of what is Ukraine. We would learn his verse by heart, and anniversary of his birth we would have, you know, in our community, these plays. People would come out and recite poetry by heart. A lot of his poetry is put to music. So it was, you know, church and cultural and all these things that we had, and that was basically their legacy. We've tried to pass it on to our children. My son is getting married on the ninth of July to a Ukrainian girl, which I'm sure his grandparents would be very proud of him. My daughter married a wonderful young man from Atlanta, Georgia, but there again he was at the London School of Economics and he did a semester in Ukraine studying iconography. They met at a Halloween party, and I can't remember what he was dressed as but she was the only one that could recognize him, but it's also part of the Ukrainian Gogol Bordello connection. It's sort of that consciousness of being Ukrainian and he went to Ukraine so they immediately had a lot in common and it carried on from there. You know it's just very much a part of who we are. We call ourselves Ukrainian-Americans, and I'm still involved with Ukraine. I'm going to Washington this week. We have a delegation coming in from Washington and I'm working on a USED funded project to help Ukraine develop a national export strategy while they're going through their reforms and trying to get their economy back on a growth cycle after the Revolution of Dignity and all the things that have happened in Ukraine in the past couple years. EG: You said your son is marrying a Ukrainian girl. Is that something that for your parents was important to them that you marry someone Ukrainian, or do you feel that way about your kids? Or is it just coincidence? SW: It was very important to my parents. I have three sisters. They all married Ukrainians. I married a Ukrainian. I have one brother who was in the doghouse for a while. He married a non-Ukrainian but his wife really bought into all the Ukrainian traditions. They observe both Christmases, both Easters, their children go to Ukrainian dance camps, go to Ukrainian schools on Saturdays and all that, so it's very much a part of it. He's just basically expanded the gene pool a little bit, which can't be bad. ZN: Now you said your wife is third generation. Did any of your traditions or celebrations differ from hers or were they pretty much the same? SW: They were pretty much the same I think. The only difference we had was Christmas Eve, we had a conflict in our mushroom soups. But other than that, we shared. She brought some in and I brought some traditions in, and we kind of amalgamated and it now has our mark on it. ZN: Does she speak Ukrainian too? SW: She sings in Ukrainian. Her language skills are limited. She understands more than she speaks, but we lived in Ukraine for three years, so she picked up quite a bit there but she's not a linguist. EG: How about you children? Do they speak? SW: They understand. My daughter-in-law-to-be is fluent. Alexander, my son, he was in a Russian language immersion, so he has his Ukrainian from his grandparents and he had the Russian, so he speaks sort of a hybrid Slavic language. But all my nieces and nephews, my sister's kids, my three sisters, they all speak Ukrainian but they grew up very close to their grandparents and that's really where you can get most of it. We were overseas for most of their growing up so our kids went to, my son went to a Czech preschool, my daughter went to a Hungarian preschool, so at the age of 4 or 5 was my wife's interpreter at the markets. EG: That's a cool story for them to tell of how they grew up. ZN: I had a question. You said you identify as Ukrainian-American. Would you say you identify as either more? Or is it just a different identity than, you know, separately Ukrainian? SW: You know, I don't separate the two because that's the beauty of this country. Your composition of, you know, I think President Kennedy said something to the fact that immigrants really enrich this country. So I'm no less American than anyone else, and actually the fact that, you know, I served this country for, including my military, 37 years. For me it was important to give back to the country for opening its doors to my parents and for us. EG: Do you think either you personally or your parents, did they face any sort of discrimination for being immigrants? SW: Well I think, you know, you do. Some of it is sort of subliminal. That's why a lot of people change their names even, so they can, and I never felt the need to. I was not, in my own development, I was proud I was Ukrainian. In high school, I had a fight because they would call me, like, "You're a Polack," and at that point in time the kids were doing a lot of name calling and stuff. I said, “I'm not,” but at that point in time nobody knew Ukrainian, it was overshadowed by Russian. So I think maybe for some people it had an influence, and I can recount times when I thought there was some prejudice there, but it makes me all the more satisfied that we were able to overcome that and that my kids don't even think of it. My daughter, even though through marriage her name could have been Line, but she retained her name, Nadya Wasylko. Even her first name, Nadya I think has become more known, a little bit more popular, but she's very proud of her name. As is my son too. When my mother-in-law was growing up, I think they felt a lot more pressure to become Americanized. More of a melting pot mentality. But when we were growing up it was not that bad. In the army, they couldn't pronounce my simple seven letter name. When they yelled out "alphabet", I knew they were calling me. But again, it's pretty simple but we're pretty lazy in America when it comes to foreign languages. Canada is great. You know, we spent a lot of time in Canada. I did my graduate work in Canada, at the University of Toronto, we lived in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa. You know, Canadians define themselves as being not Americans. They won't tell you what Canadian is, but it's definitely not American. We are the melting pot, they promote multi-culturalism. The government really supports different ethnic groups. They put in for grants for various ethnic programs and language training in schools and what have you. That's how they differentiate themselves from us and I think that's really a great thing. EG: When your in-laws came over, did they change their names at all to be more part of the melting pot or did they keep their name? SW: No, you know, they kept their name. And in this community, pretty much everybody kept their name. There's a few that actually change it. Her grandmother started out as a Czebiniak, married and became a Dobransky. Her first husband died and she became a Kaspryk. They just kept it. And these names became better in the community too. As the family expanded, they kind of just kept their identity. ZN: Now you said with your family, some of them still live in Ukraine? SW: Yeah, my parents came from very, very humble, almost medieval kind of setting. They were born into families that were essentially in agrarian setting. They lived in thatched roofed huts, houses, dirt floors. Very primitive. This was, you know—my dad was born in 1918, my mother 1924. This was just after World War I. Just before they were born it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. I know your focus is on the Russian Empire, but this was the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. After WWI, they basically drew borders and this Ukrainian enclave wound up in Poland, south-eastern Poland. Then comes World War II and you have the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and they redraw the borders again and it was after the war, there were a lot of partisans that were still fighting in that area and so they resettled everybody. My parents, I travelled there, I visited these areas. They were about, maybe ten miles away, their villages. In the 50s, they resettled all the population there, basically to undermine the base of operations of the partisans and for their own needs. The Russians came in and took all the people of my father's village and moved them east, forcibly moved them east. They had to abandon everything. My mother's family was moved north by the Poles to what was the Danzig Corridor. That ran along the Baltic in what is now Northern Poland. That was all occupied by Germans. After World War II, the Germans were basically moved out of there. Poland got the land going right up to the Baltic and they used the people from south-eastern Ukraine to fill that vacuum. So they were all forcibly moved up there. My father was moved to the east. My parents, after the war, were caught up in the displaced persons camps. They were considered stateless because they were Ukrainians, living in what was formerly Poland, and some areas now occupied by the Russians, so they spent from 45-49 in the camp before they resettled. You know, you see now the Syrian immigrants in the camps in Europe, you know, it's basically that kind of setting with these huge, you know compounds where these peoples lived and managed to survive. And so, your question was family there; yes, my mother’s family was in Poland, my father’s family is in what is near Lviv turn, Western Ukraine, and I’ve, you know, I’ve had contact with all of them in both countries. EG: Did they stay because they didn't have sponsors like your parents, or did they stay for other reasons? SW: They stayed because they had no options, they were under communist control, the USSR at that time was a locked—you know they couldn't, you couldn't even go from one city to another without having a totalitarian government, so under Stalin at that time, it was extremely difficult, and Poland went Communist you know in '49, the communists took over. And restrictions on travel, on movement of people, you know it was the Iron Curtain. It had gone up, and so it was, what Ronald Reagan referred to as the “evil empire” had taken hold and so people were basically prisoners in their own countries. Prisoners. EG: So, sorry if this is going backwards, but how did your parents manage to come over then, if the rest of the family couldn't? Because of the sponsors? SW: Well, because they were separated by their families, during the war, '39 the Germans came in to the region they were in. And they took young people from different homes and took them as slave laborers to Austria and to Germany. So they—after the war was over, you had the, you know, literally millions of displaced people, you had prisoners of war, you had slave laborers, you had millions of people that were, had been uprooted by the war and had wound up in different locations at the end of the war. So they didn't know what had happened to their families. They were taken into these camps, then there were all these international NGOs, these nations that are trying to sort out. A lot of people repatriated; others like my parents were classified as stateless, there was nowhere to repatriate them, although the Russians came in and tried to take people back, and the people that they did repatriate directly, a lot of them, you know, suffered as a consequence. They were considered as collaborators with the Germans, many were imprisoned, some were killed; others were sent off to Siberia. And some you know, my parents managed to find a safe haven, and they were in an American zone, and eventually there was, it was a long process for them to get resettled. That’s why when you, when you have this big uproar about immigrants coming to America now, you know, it's a lot of rhetoric, but that clearance process is very very difficult and it takes time, and you got to, what is the name of accepting the displaced people until later you know, some kind of treatise to open up more quickly, my parents could have moved out of the camps more readily had they agreed to go to Australia, or to South America, but again, because they grew up hearing about stories about their grandparents going to America, they were more determined to wait it out until they had an opportunity to get on the manifest to go to America. So it wasn't a matter of choice—the winds of war swept people around and my father would always say that, as terrible as the war was, World War II, in many respects it opened up the world for these people who lived in these really beautiful pristine valleys and villages, and very idyllic nice place for tourists to visit, but they were a subsistence economy that, you just couldn't survive you know, had the situation like that continued. They'd have to find a way to find more opportunities. EG: You said that your parents kind of held out for America. Do you think that America met their expectations? Did they have the sort of American dream mentality for it? SW: I think you know, eventually over time they realized the American dream. They came to this country penniless with no education to speak of, you know, they can read, they can write, but they really didn't have, you know, what they were able to give their children. So they raised five kids, we all went to University, they had their own home. My dad got his own car. You know it was just remarkable, and they worked. They worked. They were blue collar workers. They worked in factory. My mom worked the day shift, my father worked the night shift. But when they got to Auburn. When you know, they found the house, put a down payment on it. They managed to pay it off in like five years, paid off their mortgage. And again they just—it was amazing, you know, for them at the same time, you know their brothers and sisters and even their parents in the early years, were still alive, you know, who were living a terrible life behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union. You know, my parents, once things, after Stalin died and there was a little more communication, they sent letters, or they would send, you know, money. They would package, you know, clothing and send it, or there was even services where you could actually do gift packs of food and send it. I went to Ukraine in 1975 with my dad. He had not been back in forty years. And or seen his brothers in 40 years. He had five brothers and they were all young, virile men. When, as he remembered them, in '75 we went back and he was absolutely devastated to see his brothers. How you know, how abused they were. How downtrodden and you know, they, my father looked like a capitalist, and these guys looked like homeless people. And they worked as hard if not harder than my father, but they didn't have the opportunities, their kids didn't have the opportunity to go to education. And in our case, you know, for you know, if my parents didn't get out of that world, there's no way I would have been a diplomat for the Soviet Union or for Poland, you know, unless you were connected, unless you worked the system, unless you were a member of the Communist Party, you had nothing. And so they came here, and basically by their own sweat and toil, and they're, you know, very scrupulous habits, we didn't go out when we were going up, out to restaurants or anything. My parents had their own garden, you know, canned peaches and pears, and they basically took their own training and their way of life, transposed it into an American setting, managed to save money, managed to buy a house, managed to do all these things. And I never felt that, even though we didn't live on the East End of Auburn, where all the doctors and lawyers [lived], but we were not really poor in any way. We had food, we had clothing, we were washed and clean and we were presentable. But that was all basically their commitment and dedication to their family. And again, what they managed to do for them really was a realization of the American dream. I hear about the, all kinds of people use the [word] “American” and I think it means different things for different people. When I was in Moscow we had Secretary Evans, who was a friend of George W. Bush. They were real buddies, and actually Don Evans introduced George to Laura. So they were really good good friends, and he would come out and he would, Secretary Evans would talk about his own life, and how he and his friend George, young starry eyed guys, you know, went out there looking for oil in Texas, and looking to, living the American dream. Well, you know, to me that was great but it's like, just like Trump's thing is living the American dream because he's so successful, he only started with a few million. EG: Only? SW: Only. So that was great, great for him, but you know for my parents, it really was you know the American dream, to where they started and what they accomplished, and you know, where they'd gone. And just in a very short, one, two generations. You know it's been great. And they were inspiring, you know, they're inspiring to even my kids, who hadn't experienced, and so, you know I try to instill in my own kids, you know that, and they're familiar with their grandparents’ story. I've seen them go the distance, you know, see where your grandparents started and how far they went, and then how we've gone in the next generation, and for you, and again, it doesn't have to about money, it's just has to do about you know believing and trying to achieve something you know make your life meaningful. And so that's a great story right there. EG: Yeah. ZN: Now you said neither of your parents got an education but all of your siblings did. Was education important to them—that you got it? SW: Yeah, but they were, my mother got the report card. You know when a teacher told her, “Well, Stephan is, he's pretty smart but he's lazy.” Well, you know how they dealt with lazy kids back then, you know it was— But yeah, it was very, very important to them. When there were Ukrainians and there was Poland. They were a minority there too, so they suffered a lot of discrimination and abuse in Poland as ethnic Ukrainians, they didn't have their own schools. They didn't have their own language, newspaper or books or anything they were sort of looked down upon and you know they were in this, hills. The foothills of the Carpathian Mountains, and I think they were looked upon and treated as hillbillies. They didn't have a lot of opportunities. Now people that lived in larger cities, that was different. Maybe they had more success, but for my parents it was tough, and so when they came to America, you know the fact that you know they didn't have to do anything special, actually we were required to go to school, so immediately we are in Kindergarten and going to school, and in Auburn we had a parochial school, it was the Ukrainian St. Paul Ukrainian Catholic school, so that's where they sent us. Then we went to the public school system, and then. My parents, my dad in particular, he would ask me, “What, how much education do you really need?” You know, and I said, “Well, I don't know,” but, because after, you know, first of all I'm going away to University, that was something that they weren't really too excited about, because when you go away you go away, you know, and they had gone away, and so they were really very focused on keeping us close. But I went away from Auburn to Syracuse, that's 27 miles away but it was like it was away. And then when I went, after I got out of the military and I said I was going to go for my Masters, again they didn't really comprehend why: “When are you finally going to go to work?” But that was, again, their mindset. It was beyond what they felt one needed. EG: Did your siblings go away for school, as well, or did they stay close to your parents? SW: Well my oldest sister went to the local community college, it was Auburn Community College at that point in time. Now it's I think, it's like Broome County, BCC, so she did that, and then I went away, my other sisters went away, my brother went away so you know it was sort of weaning you know a weaning process. EG: So you were the first to leave? SW: Actually leave? Yeah, which was, you know, but they, you know they were very, you know, proud of the fact, but they'd always say, so what is it that you do? But that went on even here, you know my mother-in-law, when she had just made—at that point my first job was with the US Department of Commerce in Washington, and she'd introduce me as her son in law who works for the Junior Chamber of Commerce, which was not quite the same, but again, people have trouble grasping it if they had never been there and done that. ZN: So now I want to talk about—you said obviously you traveled a lot, so is there any place that you, specifically liked more than any others, or felt the most at home at, and do you have any interesting stories about your travels? SW: Well, we don't have the time. I'm sure, you know every place, when you, on a foreign assignment representing the US government and doing the kind of work I did, you know, it's absolutely fascinating, and every country has its plusses and minuses, but you know for me, I think probably the most meaningful assignment was to go to Kyiv and, you know, that was from 92 to 95, when we were establishing the US embassy in Ukraine and established diplomatic relations with Ukraine. I had a tremendous sense of actually working for two countries, you know, doing you know our bidding for the US, at the same time, sharing my US experience with Ukrainian government officials and trying to encourage them with their transformation from a central planned economy to a free market economy. And my capacity, I was working as a senior commercial officer so we were bringing the US companies in to basically trade with Ukraine, to invest in Ukraine, and you know to this very day I'm still trying to help that process, so it was very very difficult, it was frustrating. You always wanted things to move more quickly. 25 years later they're still facing some of the same issues. What was particularly striking and interesting was that in places like Kyiv—it's commonly called, it’s “Kiev” in Russian context but “Kyiv” in Ukrainian, you know that was so Russified that you know we were more Ukrainian than they were in many respects. The Ukrainian people living under communism, you know, weren't, it was an Atheist country so they didn't have the kind of religious; you know, faith organizations or engagement as we grew up with. A lot of the traditions were no longer even practiced in Ukraine. In Kyiv, in the big cities, out in the villages I think they were still preserved, but my wife actually, she's in the memorial center now running the Pysanka workshop doing the Ukrainian Easter eggs. She did the same thing in Ukraine for Ukrainians because they had no idea. And actually during the Stalinist years, they would look at children's hands. If you had dyes on your hands, then they knew your family may be doing this evil thing, and doing you know making these Easter eggs which related to a Christian holiday, which could set you back quite a bit or you could even be punished for doing that, so living and working in Ukraine was an amazing experience, and you know, going back now I can see how much has changed, and I can still see how much further it has to go, and you know it's a beautiful country and we actually got to see firsthand you know, some of the things that we read about and heard about. We went to the theatre and you can see, you know, the performing artists, performing well-known Ukrainian operas and plays, Ukrainian dancers, and it's just really all kinds of different traditions that you can actually witness. So that was a great bonus on top of— I never worked harder in any job than there. I always used to tell people, you know, in Ukraine you need to work four times as hard to go half the distance, but it was what it was and it was just a thrill. EG: While you were working there, did you hear any or witness any views about what they think about America? Did they have negative views of America, or was it positive? SW: While we were there, people had positive, sometimes unrealistic views; you know they, you know everything, you know, in America, you know, money grew on trees and, you know, sort of the land of milk and honey, and they didn't really grasp how hard people really had to work in order to achieve what they got and earned, so you know, growing up in this socialist environment, you know, they say, well if you have it, why can't I have half of what you have, you know? Which is, and even going back to when my father was alive, and I went with him for the first time, they said, well, his family would say, “Well, you have more than one car.” And they go, “Well yeah, you know, like I have a car, Stephan has a car, and has a car,” and so at that point in time, we had three cars and the family [says], “Well, why do you need three cars? Why don't you send us one?” you know, and you know they were always wanting. But not understanding that, you know, it doesn't come that easy. And so I think there's those kinds of misconceptions, there’s, you know, and a lot of that is going into, you know what the biggest issue in that part of the world is now is, the greed is one real problem, corruption is another major problem. A lack of, you know charity, altruistic society, you know, when I was there it was, everybody was just scrambling to get whatever they could get, and that sort of legacy of the Soviet system, of, you know, if you were in line in the supply chain, then you would steal whatever you could, while you had the opportunity to do it. That's changed considerably in the last few years, especially since this Revolution of Dignity, and a lot of people, they are really, these civil society pushing for change. People of your generation who, you know, were born after the collapse of communism. They don't, they really didn't experience what that is. But that hangover is still there, and it really is, you know, a real drag on the country’s development. Now they've signed the association agreement with the EU, people are you know, which is basically a roadmap for them on how they should govern, how they should work, what the world standards are for everything from food products to the legal systems, and so the younger generation says you know like, we need to adopt that, and once we do then we can be competitive with the rest of the world, but there is a lot of vested interest that really depends on the status quo. So, it's a real struggle, and so they're confronting, you know, an external evil with Putin taking Crimea, invading Eastern Ukraine, and then the internal evil forces that are basic corruption and greed, a lack of rule of law that undermines progress and keeps it from moving as quickly as it could. EG: When you were sort of like, traveling for your work, I assume you weren't as involved in a Ukrainian community as you were here. Is that, would you say that's true or not? SW: No, no. You know, it varied—like in Ukraine, you were in Ukraine, so, like everything was Ukraine. EG: Yeah. SW: In Hungary, there wasn't that much, in Prague, you know, I'd meet some people, actually I had Secret Service come at me, through this Ukrainian sort of contact, and befriended me, so you couldn't really trust who is what and what was going on, but in places like Vancouver, you know you had a Ukrainian community there, in Toronto as well. Ottawa, same thing. And so and kind of the community like that, you're on assignment working at the US embassy in Ottawa for example. After you get settled, well, you know, Sunday we'll go to church, and then you meet, you know, other Ukrainians and they'll put you on their mailing list and tell you things that are going on or—so yeah, it's always there, and again, come Christmas and Easter and the holidays, you know, we'd invite our, even though we were American, we celebrated 4th of July, and have a huge reception and parties for that, in my work you know we had trade shows and we'd do all kinds of different events, waving the American flag, but then we had our Ukrainian holidays, we would invite embassy friends, and we'd invite people from the community, friends that we made, and share with them some of our Ukrainian culture in an American setting, and so it was, we're really promoters of things Ukrainian, and I think that just comes from the fact that Ukraine had been so overshadowed for so long, you almost feel like it's an obligation, to do that, to educate people and let them share a little bit of the Ukrainian history and culture. ZN: Now, here would you say that most of the Ukrainian community revolves around the church, or are there other Ukrainian organizations? SW:  Here it's, it's pretty much church-affiliated, there's a small group of people that are involved in the political way, the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America has a branch here, so, you know, we do flag-raising on Ukrainian independence day, to get a little press. You know the festivals that we do here, Sacred Heart does some festivals; we do, we try to promote a little bit of the Ukrainian thing, but it pretty much centers around the church. And a lot of it's apolitical—you know, actually, I'm probably more of an agitator than the rest because I want people to be aware of, you know, the plight of others and it's, you know, we're sort of in—sometimes we fade into la-la land, you know, we're just watching baseball and the NCAA tournament, which is great and all that, but we forget, we tend to forget about what's happening in the world around us. Just given my background experience and my work, my career, I think we have an obligation to at least know what's going on. EG: Would you, do you think the Ukrainian community in Binghamton in general is a close-knit community, do you have a lot of involvement with each other? SW: I, you know, I think over time, we are just sort of dissolving into the broader community, and that's a natural thing, you know we have a lot of mixed marriages now. We don't have the language. Our deacon, you heard it in church, he's not even Ukrainian, he married a young lady from our parish and he went to the seminary, and for him to get ordained he has to have, to be able to do the liturgy in Ukrainian. So he's working on his language, but with that one exception, no one really pays attention to it. So yeah we're basically losing it and other communities who have been blessed or have been able to receive the third wave of immigrants. My wife's grandparents were considered the first wave. My family when I came in was the second wave. And now you have the third wave, post-independence. They're coming here and, you know, some places, some cities, they have basically taken over the churches, the organizations and sort of revitalized all of them, and sort of given them sort of life extension that we don't have here. We're having trouble with even supporting this campus that I may have mentioned earlier because we, this church had like 300 people at one point. We're down to 130, and a third of them don't live in the area. Another third are octogenarians, and so that doesn't leave a whole lot of people to sustain this. ZN: Well, I think that's all the time we have for questions, so thank you very much. EG: Thank you! SW: I hope I didn't overburden you. EG: No! Not at all. It was very interesting. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephan Wasylko Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wasylko, Stephan ; Nasca, Zach ; Greenwell, Emily Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stephan Wasylko.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:37 Subject The topic of the resource Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.)