142 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7fcf63ae9b0cccacc9c02bdbbb3ee648.jpeg 94011bbc9d5d917b17e3f3aee3dae364 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e70ddf94bb04a33ea7b6aeba1cb94dba.mp3 5298a9a7b94af78800b6c70923e24c24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ann B. Czebiniak Biographical Text Ann B. Czebiniak is a first generation Ukrainian American who was born in Johnson City, NY, and worked for IBM. She is not married but has a large extended family.She is a member of Ukrainian Catholic Church and resides in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:00 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Czebiniak, Ann.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Russian; Poland; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnCzebiniak.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Ukrainian Americans; International Business Machines Corporation; Ukrainian Catholic Church; Ethnic identity Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Ann B. Czebiniak Interviewed by: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Transcriber: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:15:00 AM Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Briana Comuniello: Alright, so good morning. Ann Czebiniak: Morning. BC: We will be doing an hour interview with you today. Umm, just to start off, can you state your full name and maybe a little bit about yourself? AC: Uhh, my name is Ann Czebiniak and I am one of uhh eleven children. Two of my sisters died before I was uhh born and right now there's only my one sister and a brother. All the rest of them are gone. BC and Drew Tenbus: Wow AC: So, and as I say, I was born in America, and in fact it's only, not far away from where we are up on the hill. I was born there, and I went to catholic school. I went twelve years. Uhh, St. Stanislav which no longer is here and then I moved to Saint Patrick's for twelve years on that and they were taught by the nuns both and they were very strict, and they were good, excellent teachers, and they were very good. And when I started, my first job was in a grocery store, and then one day at the clothes store I was fortunate, I got a job when I worked in IBM, I retired. BC: Oh wow, that's very interesting AC: So, I was very fortunate DT: What did you do at IBM? AC: Oh, I used to work for engineering and I was not an engineer but thank god for a lot of brothers, they were electricians, everything and all electrical things I understood, so I used to, uhh when computers first came out, those big things on there, we were the ones that, I was the one that they failed, I was the one that had to find out why they failed. BC and DT: Ahh! AC: That was my job. So, I, it was very good, and then it was very, and as I say the engineers were good but they only had everything on paper. AC: Paperwork DT: Before paperwork AC: But I grew up with it. My brothers did those things, so I knew, I understood, electricity was easier for me to find the defects. And I was very, very, I was very fortunate at IBM, they used all my talents that I had. I have to say. It was very, very profitable and I'm grateful for that. BC: That's amazing. Umm, do you wanna talk about, uhh your parents? You said they came here-- AC: Well, you ask the questions. Well, what do you want to hear? BC: Yeah, we'll take it back a little bit. Uhh, your parents are from Ukraine? AC: No, they were from Poland. BC: Oh ok. AC: Let me explain that. They originally under Franz Josef and that was Austria and when they had the Austrian divide the section where they lived ended up in the Polish area. DT: Ok. AC: So, they originally and when I was visit in uhh 1985, I went to visit the village my parents came from and they still, uhh there was a Ukrainian church that-- a Ukrainian church there. AC: So, that's how we got from Poland.  BC: That's interesting. Umm, when did your parents come here? AC: Uhh, I started to tell you before. My dad came here in 1905. My dad was born in 1880. And he came here on a work visa in 1905. He worked for five years and my aunt came. My, there was only two of them- there was three but my uncle died, and my aunt came with my dad but she got sick over here and she went back and died. But my dad was here for five years and he worked partly on, in EJs (Endicott-Johnson) that they long time ago on there, they worked things. DT: Oh ok. AC: So, originally, he started to work on the trains with the trains but then he got a job in EJs and that's where he was. After five years he went back to uhh Europe, you know, and he got married and my oldest brother which is Adrianna's great grandfather (referring to her great-great niece who was also being interviewed on the other side of the room) was born there. And he was only like four, five months when they had, and my dad decided we bought property and no money because in the area where there was, you know, just farming you don't, so my dad came to the United States in 1914 and it was late part of 1914 just before World War I. He got here WWI broke out and my dad was in America here and my mother was in Poland and for four years it was illegal, you could not even write letters. They had no idea anything about each other. So, after the war was over, they communicated, and my dad was, he paid the property, you know. My mother was very smart and- not smart, wise and she figured that if my dad could make a living in America and pay half the property there, things are better here than they are there. And other thing that my mother did not like is that after the war things got political and unfortunately that the Catholic Church in Poland, the Ukrainian Catholic Church was pulling. My mother used to call them- didn't call them Russians, they called them Muscovites so they're going towards Russia and my mother didn't like that so that was one of the other reasons why she came to this country. So, they got here, and they, my dad, he built a property that's for all but my two brothers that were my oldest brother and my other brother, we were all born there. All of us. All 8, 9 of us. So, and I say that my dad got sick and he was truck farming and then my oldest brother, I says my oldest brother Mike, that's his name, he was very smart. Not knowing the language at all when they came here to America, they started a Catholic School St. Stanislav and that was just beginning on there and he went to school, and he was six years old when he came here but he was so smart that he skipped to grades in school. BC AND DT: Wow. AC: He was very, too bad he couldn't finish like, go on to college and that he could've had, at that time there was things, but he finished and then he got job. He had job as a meat cutter and that at that time meat cutters were making more money than the factory people, so he was the one that helped my dad to raise the farm, the family on there. So, until we got old enough to you know, the older ones came and we all had our turn to keep our mother and father, we had to do our turn for. And the fact that I was the last one I kept the house up and all and I supported them until they died. BC: Wow. How was it growing up with such a big family? AC: Excellent. You know what, you don't, if you have a problem, there's always someone to ask and in a big family, no matter what your problem is you're gonna find somebody who's had that problem. And that is big because you don't have to decide on yourself, you can make a judgement on what they lived through.  I found it very beneficial and I (stutters) now I miss them because I used to depend on the brothers and all because, and they're gone. And I say five of my brothers are, they're gone you know. And they did a lot, and we were a very close family. As you see over here, family's all together. DT: (Laughing) Everyone's still here (referring to Ann's extended family who came to church with her). AC: So, I say, we enjoyed family life and it was very good on there. When we uhh, this was just before World War II, my brother, oldest brother, he bought a farm and the reason why he bought the farm was that they had a little building on the corner and my brother wanted to have a little, like we had, the 9/11 little store over there. And he did have it during WWII. And then, as I say, we had chance the man that he worked for in town, the meat cutter, he had two stores, so he, my brother, has chance to buy one of the stores.  BC AND DT: Wow. AC: But during the war times, he couldn't work out in the store because they would've all been drafted. I have five (brothers) you know. So, what they did is that my brother worked on the farm from Monday till Friday and then Friday; Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday they worked in the store. My sister, my oldest sister, she was the one that took care of the store and my brother Andy also was attending, he knew how to cut meat. So, they took care that during the week. So, for that and then, and see, my oldest brother, my brother Pete, I said (stutters) four of my brothers were in the service. So, they had, they go, they all went at different times because they were younger. And then nephews, Adrianna's uncle, he was in Vietnam and I says I have, what's his name, nephews that were all, one that was in Germany, I had like six or seven nephews that were in the service, so.  BC: Wow. Were they all from different branches or--? AC: Yah, I have a nephew, my one brother and nephew were in the Air Force, and one nephew was in the Navy, and he was on the ship in Midway, and I have nephews, and the nephews were in different (stutters), served in the army. One of, her uncle (referring to her great-great niece) had a good job. He was in the army. He was drafted but he was drafted already after he went to college. And he had a nice job because he used to be a chauffeur for Air Force generals so that was a nice job. But I unfortunately, I lost a brother-in-law in WWII. BC: Really? AC: My sister Pauline, there's only three of us sisters. The two sisters died way, way back but three of my sisters that lived, and my middle sister, uhm she got married like four months before she was 18 and her husband went to war, and he was killed in the Battle of the Bulge if anybody knows that. And my sister, she has two girls, she lived with her husband only 35 days. Could you imagine? DT: Wow! AC: And the two times they had, as she saw, she got pregnant, and the youngest one, the youngest girl was only four months when he was killed. BC AND DT: Oh wow! AC: And his uncle- his brother tried, he was in the service also and tried to find out how he died but his whole outfit was killed. They were at the position where they had to keep the place because if they, that area in the Battle of the Bulge, if they gave in, it could've been, the war could've gone another way. So they had to, and they had, and it was a bad time. He died in December in 1944. So that was about the things. And I say, other brothers are very unfortunate, they were very good in the service, no problems. BC: Were your parents, uhm happy that they joined the service or-- what was their feeling towards--? AC: My mother and father-- I gotta tell you about my brother Andy. No, my mother, they did not, that's part because in Europe people had to go in service too. My brother Andy was in the Korean War and he went into the service and my mother prayed very, very hard that he would not go to Korea. So he was stationed in Texas and the place of demarcation was St. Louis, Fort Lewis in Washington State, so they moved my brother up to Washington State. He was supposed to go to Korea. Well, they lost his records. They lost his records for three months. DT: (Laughing) AC: It was in the back of the, you know drawer, in the back, and when they found that, it was already, they could not send anybody overseas unless they had (served) a year, and it was less than a year, so my brother did not go. And my mother, it was through her prayers. DT: So, all those prayers-- (Laughs) AC: And for that, you could talk about that, my mother made a sacrifice, that she would never have any alcoholic beverages as long as she lived, and she didn't as thank you for not brother not going in there. BC: That's crazy! AC: They say have faith up there or something. A lot of people have faith, you find out that a lot of people here came from Ukraine, and if you talk to every one of them, you find out that each one has a unique story and frightening. It is terrible what they went through. It's a wonder that they are mentally ok. So DT: So, going back a little bit, both your parents are from Poland or Ukraine or around there? AC: My mother was born in 19- 1888. They were born there. My father was all Ukrainian and my mother's great grandmother- my mother's grandmother, my great grandmother, was Polish on her mother's side. So that was a thing that they were-- And I have to tell you, it's tradition in the country that if your mother was like Polish, you are Polish, you're not another thing. My mother was baptized and everything in the eastern, in our church, but they always considered them as Polish because they're with the mother. That was-- other countries had that too. They called them Polish more than Ukrainian.  BC: What did your parents identify as? AC: Pardon? BC: What did your parents identify as? Uhh, Polish, Ukrainian--? AC: No, they were Ukrainian, they were because they on that, they had to come in on a Polish visa because if you were born in America, you know, I don't know what nationality you are, but your nationality is yours. But where you're born, that's where your country is. But they were not born there, but since they lived in there, and you get a visa, if you get to go out, if you go from America, I don't care, you (stutters) you could be Irish or whatever, you're still an American. When you're born here you're still in America. And we, as we say that, we respect our background, but we love America. We [stutters] had nothing against them. Even like my brothers' serving, all my parents, nobody had. And, my mother and father, as many times, as long as they've been here, they've never even had the desire to go back to visit.  DT: Really? AC: I was fortunate, I went but they [her parents] didn't. I went in 1985. It was still under communism, and the area, and I'll tell you something, you don't realize that, when, you know, we're free over here and all, but when drove into Warsaw, and you see guys on the steps with guns up there, it doesn't make you feel very comfortable. Everywhere you look there's guns and eyes and that's not what we have here. DT: Right. AC: So. BC: Wow. That's very interesting. AC: So, ask whatever, you know, you ask whatever you want. AC: I don't know what you want to know DT: Uhh, so what language did you speak at home? AC: I spoke Ukrainian DT: Ok. AC: We all, my mother did not speak very good English, in fact, she tried to get her citizenship and she couldn't speak well enough. My dad became an American citizen. DT: Oh, ok. AC: He was an American citizen, on that. But they loved America. BC: Your first language was Ukrainian? AC: Well they spoke at home, my mother didn't speak (English), and when we went to school, in fact (stutters), I knew English because the older ones already (knew it). Because they taught in school. BC AND DT: Oh wow. AC: You know, they start in school in English but we at home, we had to speak our language. I hate to say it, my mother that is used to say, "Jews, are you Jews that you talk another language?" You know.  AC: They used to pick on us, but we had at home (stutters) and actually it was an asset because when we had any kind of a problems or anything where people had to talk to my parents, I would translate. I had no problem. In fact, that one of our professors from church here many years ago asked me if I think in Ukrainian when I speak it, or do I translate it into English and I never thought about it but I have to say that for me and my brother the same thing. We don't have no difference, we think in whatever we're talking. You don't even know that we're changing thoughts in a different--We don' translate. We just know two words for the same thing. BC: Do you dream in both languages? Have you noticed? AC: Huh? BC: Do you dream in both languages? AC: Depends (coughs). Depends on what the dream is. If I dream of like my parents, and you had. And one other thing that I'll tell you that lot of people don't know, Americans, is that one time when I was working in the grocery store a lady come in that I knew but she didn't speak very good English, so I spoke to her in Ukrainian. And one of the guys who were there was telling me that they should speak English but I told him, and I'll tell you, now if you go to France and you live there for fifty years and you meet an American, you're not gonna talk to him in French, you're gonna talk to him in English because that is natural for you. To the people that you speak, talk in that language, and you, and American, I mean you speak American and all that, but people from other nationalities you're gonna find out you're gonna speak in different language. Where you, what you know, what you grew up with.  BC AND DT: Interesting. AC: And you don't think that but I was confronted with it so I know. BC: Have you ever been either discriminated against because of speaking a different language or anything? AC: No. DT: So, you felt very comfortable because there was a lot of Ukrainians here, obviously, in Binghamton? AC: Pardon, I didn't hear you. DT: Did you feel comfortable growing up here because, did you feel there was a lot of other Ukrainians here that it was like kind of-- AC: Uhh, it didn't matter because there was an awful lot of other people. There was Polish, Slavic, ehh Slavic people, Czechs, uhh Italians. We grew up there was an awful lot of different. It did not make [Stutters]. I think that now unfortunately they make this racist, that, and we didn't even know what anything like what race has been. That was not and that thing, I think they make bigger issue now than they used to. We grew up, it didn't matter. I say, Blacks didn't matter to us. BC: Because everyone back then was very heterogeneous? AC: Because everybody was, most everybody was from another place, you know? What they did respect was they, I think more for what you really are. I worked, when I worked in IBM, I worked with people--the lady from Laos, lady from Korea, and she in fact, she was from the Chinese dynasty, that she was from Korea. And the only reason why got to America is because her husband worked for the army. And once the army left southern, all the people that worked for the army, they took them out because the communist would've been taken amnesty against them because they were working for the Americans. So, they were sent to either America or Australia, other countries. They would not leave them there. And she had, and [stutters] we understood each other because she was talking to other people, they didn't believe it. But in North Korea, they had all the houses bugged. You couldn't talk even in your own home. And you say something they already knew, and I only knew because they did the same thing in Ukraine, so I understood. But regular people that never was come from something like that don't understand.  BC: Do you have any specific memories of your time working for IBM? AC: I was very fortunate, that's all I says. I was very fortunate, I was very well-liked. They liked my work. In fact, they didn't like that I was gonna retire. In fact, I met a man that was a manager after I retired, and he asked me to go back. To go for temporary but I-- I had other things. I'm very active at church. DT: Did you go to school to learn all about the electricity or anything? AC: I grew up with brothers and it was natural for them. I did, although, my brother, my youngest brother was in the service and he learned electricity in the service, and he was here, he's upstairs, they're singing on that [referring to church choir upstairs during mass]. He was fortunate because he was in Florida after he got out of the service and he was in a lot hot and he worked on the first missile that went up to the moon. [Stutters] Because he was working on the electrical parts of that. DT: Wow, that's crazy. AC: He used to in the Air Force, his job was, he was named, since he was the one that fixed the planes, that take care of them. When the service. This was already-- And believe it or not, that he still is what they call it, you can't say that quarantined, that's not the word for it, you can't tell what you were doing. He can't talk about the things, even today, and he was in the service in the fifties, so you talk about, so he, the things that he did, he can't talk about.  DT: Wow! BC: Now you said you're very active in the church community, you went to catholic school. Did you always have a strong presence of religion in the household? AC: I had, my parents were faiths. We had a situation with my parents because my, for my parents, religion came first, nationality comes second. And many years ago, I was real small, I don't remember. But my mother was saying, they started the Orthodox Church- Ukrainian. And they and so my relatives are there. And they wanted my mother and dad to go, and my mother and dad were Catholic, and we don't go there. And, it was so bad that they were even shooting at the house. In fact, my mother says that one time the bullet came almost, almost hit, and it was by her leg, by her foot. And they came to the house because they were-- But my parents knew that religion came first. Uhh, don't get me wrong, my mother and father were, they're very good people. They enjoyed life, they were not the ones that prayed all the time, you know. AC: They lived life. They had a good time, they enjoyed, my dad enjoyed the holidays, and they did things happy. We enjoyed, and happiness on that. But we had certain things that we had, just like [stutters]. Things are a little looser now than we did. When I was, when we were young, you, they did not use an ironing board, iron on Sunday. That was that. No washing, no nothing. We had on that, and my folks would not put up with that. No way.  BC: Were all the stores closed on Sundays back then too? AC: All the stores were closed on Sunday, and the only, even-- the only thing that were open is that movie theaters, you could go to the movies. There was nothing really. And long time ago, they used to visit, Sundays. We used to go visiting with the family, go visit. You just spent Sunday visiting other parts of the relatives. You became closer because everybody knew each other, and it became like one family, you know. DT: That's nice. AC: So, we used to go, in fact when my brothers and all lived here, we used to go from my house to the other then we have-- In fact, yesterday, we had a party. My great niece sixteenth birthday. We had a big party in the hall for her. So that's a lot of people who didn't make it to church this morning for the first one (Laughing).  BC: That's so nice. So, would you say religion and family are tied? AC: Very much. And one of the things that i have to say is we always had at least one meal together. BC: That's so nice. AC: You work all day but usually supper time you had one meal together.  DT: So, would you say you passed on, you know, this love for religion to your own children? AC: Pardon? DT: Would you say religion's important with your own family and your own children and stuff? AC: I says, I am. I say I'm very, with all the things. I have just three of them left. And my, all of them that died, they all received their last rights before they died.  AC: So, whatever they did on there. And then I have a brother-in-law that-- I have several brothers-in-law that died on that because, I says, my, I say five-- I have sister. My sister had two husbands that, Pauline. Her first husband was killed, and she was married again, and she had six children after that, and then my sister that's in California, her husband also died. So out of the things, I have sisters-in-law, but [stutters] brothers-in-law, I don't really have any.  BC: Did you teach Ukrainian to your own children? AC: I have no children. I'm the only one that's not married. BC: Oh wow! AC: But I'm gonna tell you something. I'm glad. First of all, I was able to do things that they (her siblings) couldn't. I am very artistically inclined. And I used to do things that they couldn't and so-- In fact, the Easter eggs, I was the one that taught them in the parish how to make them. And I learned from books. I'm very good from learning-- I don't have that now, but I can, but I could, I read books I could do. I did a lot crochet. In fact, my wedding bread, my sister-in-law came to me. She wanted a wedding bread for my niece, for her daughter. I never seen one. She brought me pictures and I, God gave me a gift that I was able to do those kinds of things. But I have, I had forty-two nieces and nephews, and I only have one nephew and one niece that died. All the rest of them of them are living. That's not counting great and great-great. She's a great-great already. And I don't even know how many great-greats that I have because there's so many.  BC: God Bless. Do you have any family back in Europe or-- AC: Yes. BC: Ok. AC: Yes, there's cousins over there, on, right there. And then I have some cousins that are in Ukraine because they were kicked out of Poland during WWII, that they ended up in Ukraine. And we had a special privilege. Uhh, my brother, my oldest brother in, and there was seven of us that went. My nephew's wife's sister was getting married and they were in Poland, so he went with his two children, my sister-in-law and my brother, the parents, and I went. We went to the wedding over there, on there. So, as I say that, uhh, it was a very privileged to see this was during, I told you during the communist times on there. And we find out (coughs) the difference in the families in all that we were very grateful on that. See how people live there. And I says I, they were shown things that were different from what they had. We were very fortunate because they already at that time had, like a, bathrooms. They had bathrooms in the house. They had bottled gas, which was on the stoves. The only thing they had were the outhouses and the worst part that we had is that where we stayed, they, the wedding was, they had to hire a cook to do that. He was cooking right next to a whole pile of manure (Stutters). And working in the grove, and they had a make-shift kitchen. Between the barn and the house. It was-- things out. And I got-- I don't have the pictures now, my nephews got it. I took pictures in there and the one wall was so full of flies that you would, you would think that it was pepper. I'm not exaggerating.  BC: Wow! AC: And what they did which we didn't like is that they used to make soup, but they didn't bring it in a pot to the house. They brought it in their bowls, two flies in that one, one fly in that one (Laughs). They brought them in there. I had a difficult time on that. And the water, as I said, the part with the water-- We couldn't use the water because the water was from the wells that right next to-- they had manure piles and that all went down. They--you know what, we don't appreciate the laws we have in this country.  DT: Yeah. AC: Because you can't have uhh pump, a water pump next, water by the well, by uhh well there's things, you know, there's any kind of, all those you have to be so far away. We didn't appreciate until we went there. And then in the towns it was worse, don't forget. I worked in a grocery store. Everything was, you know, things you have to be very careful. You come over there to store, they have the doors wide open and then there's a table, like a double stand. They had beef there, pork there, everything. The same flies that visited the privy visit the food. And I had a very difficult time with that because, I gotta say, because I grew up, we had beef, you know, clean. In America, we're very fortunate for that. DT: Mhmm, wow! BC: Have any of your relatives come to America? AC: Oh! I started to tell you when we came back from America I have a cousin that was here, he died already but he was going because that's my mothers, my mother's son, my mother's sister's son and he was going back to the village where we were. So, he called my brother up, my brother mike, and he asked if we wanted to give money. So we went through the list of all the people that we met down there, and we made a list get money both my brother and I went together and he gave it to the people, then he got a letter back and they did a very nice thing cause they sent that money with an invitation to all the relatives that they had in there, in Ukraine because they didn't have back and forth all the time so they did not see those relatives, that means first cousins and all, they didn't see them since World War II. SO that money we were very grateful that they used to get the family together. That was the first time that they've seen it. We felt very good for that. BC: That's amazing! Nice happy ending. DT: So what year exactly were you born? AC: I was born in 1933. My oldest brother was born in 1913 so 20 years difference. Almost, we're only a couple of weeks apart. He was born November 16 and I was born December 7th. DT: Wait so your dad came in 1914, you said. AC: Pardon? DT: Your dad came in 1914, you said? AC: Yeah, the second time yeah. DT: So, was your brother born in Ukraine? AC: Yeah, he was four months old. See that's right. And my dad did not take my mother he wouldn't take my mother. First time he came here he was like a year almost without a job we had relatives here that said I used to wash dishes and stuff like that but for him to get a job he was afraid to bring family on that to come here. So that was why he came back the second time and that's my dad. But my mother had house was there my aunt the one that we went to when we went back to Poland and we saw my mother's sister that was the last one of the relatives we went to see her and she lived in that house where my dad was, but right on the hill my mother she had her own house so she lived with my mother while my dad was married to her. BC: Now, would you say your parents identify themselves more as Americans? AC: They never have, they considered them, I was considered themselves, yes but they had respect. Let me explain another way. You're born in America and you live here for 20 years just an example. So, when you move to France you're not going to talk about childhood in France because you didn't live it there, so you have to live it where you were born. So, they talk about old things, but because they were born there, and they think of it, but as for that I told you that they had no desire to go even and visit. They liked America. Very, very, very content here. DT: Do you have any interesting stories from Ukraine that you remember? AC: I Umm I have to think about for that--Well I will say that I find that the people and we went, and this was in Poland when we went there, my sister in law had two sisters that were in Ukraine. DT: Ok. AC: My, her great grandmother was born in America here in, in, in Oliver, that's by Scranton. And when she was 3 years old, her parents moved back to Europe. So, when she was there she was there until she was 19 and then she came to America she was American born she had no problems on that. The part is it that she already she had difficulty in American language and my brother was born there but he had better in the English language. But things were kind of bad, she had 2 sisters in Ukraine and she did not when we were there did not there go to Ukraine because it was still under communism this was before this was 1985 before communism broke-- DT: Right. AC: And we had 2 children with us and my nephew's wife was from there. She just got her uhh papers that she was American they call it the card that she's American citizen which she's American citizen now. She got her citizen thing, but we got the papers on Friday, and we had to make the decision on Monday that we are going because we had to make the you know your plane reservations and all? And I say that we didn't there go because she was afraid that if we went visit and they're not gonna start World War 3 again you know for something like that. It was scary and one of the things we had people were kind of livery of Americans over there at the wedding. But on the last night that we were there we all, they had people there must have been like 15/20 people that came to the house where we were, that was strange of all. One of them was my sister in laws half-uncle and he was in prison for 10 years for things that were going on and they were talking about things how it was bad over there and they told it on the last day because they knew that nobody would hear it because the next day we are leaving because you know what we went one of my, my, my, my nephews wife's god parents were there and they owned the bakery. DT: Ok. AC: And they asked us not, we spoke, when we were there, when we were in public, we spoke only English. And she asked us not to speak in Ukrainian in there because they're gonna take reprises on that because they were Ukrainian you had. DT: Wow! AC: Yes, it was bad, it was bad on that. My mother says that before 1918 the Ukrainians and the polish people got real got along good. They used to celebrate according to Christmas according to the Julian calendar. So, they used to come to ours and on the 25th ours used to go back and the intermarriages you know there was no problem. But once world WWI came, then politics came in. And see and politics that come in and that's when the trouble start. Ukrainians had it very bad in Poland at that time. They're not that now, they're better now, but at that time under communism it was bad. You could not admit that you were Ukrainian. You had to speak, and they had a say at just how bad it was there was a Ukrainian church and it wasn't even catholic, it was orthodox and my nephew's sister in law was getting married. And she was getting married in a church there. But they had to go in because they used to use it as a barn they had all the things, they had to clean everything out, they did not let us have any electricity or anything while were having the marriage. So, you're talking how bad things were, you had to be very careful on that. And when we went to visit my sister in laws 2 aunts, we went to visit one and uhh her son in law was polish, and he didn't know that we understood Polish, so he was coming in saying "What are they doing over her? What do they want here?" and all that. And after we stayed a while they found out that we are relatives and we that's not the way we are changed attitude but they're and it was afraid, you could not do on the street on that thing and a lot of stuff this food was bad, and everything was on the black market you know, you had to get things on there. And if you wanted to go we were, the bride, that was a funny part there. Bride and groom get married in America you go on a honeymoon, right? Not there. They drove us all around Poland visiting everybody, he had a van and his job he was a mechanic but they he lived now came to America but hat another story I have to tell you. They're in America now and they're in -- can't think -- in Tennessee, I think, it is my nephew's sister-in-law, she's a professor, she teaches Russian in a college and he is a mechanic, but he has but he has the thing that most expensive cars what are they? I can't think of the name. BC: A sports car? AC: Pardon? BC: Like a sports car? AC: The name of it the real car that they have, he was the one that works on them because that's what he did over there, he was a mechanic, so he got a good job. But how they got to America. Things were very bad, they went on a tour, and they went visiting another country and they did not stay they did not go back with the filler they went to Germany and they were on a thing, and they didn't know for 2 weeks they didn't know how they were gonna get because they had to find out to get away they had to go underground to get things, my nephew sent money that they were able to get but they had 2 weeks where it was very bad, they didn't think they were gonna live. But they had to sneak out of the country because they didn't allow going to America. DT: Wow! BC: That's so crazy! AC: Well you can't believe it unless you live it. I said that I find going there has made a complete different opinion of what I thought it was. My parent's-- oh, funny thing. We went there, and my dad used to talk about a beer garden. They talk about it, so we came over there and we saw that beer garden; it looks like an American outhouse. It was so small! I said you wouldn't think it was, so you think something, and you picture, and it was completely different. I'm fortunate that we went to see the places that my parents used to talk about. We were next to it, we had a bad thing happen to us when we were in Poland is because my friends don't live too far away from the San River. And we were going to see some relatives on the other side and there, very few places have bridges only in the big towns, and they have these floats that you drive on, and they wait on there and the drive you over on your car and everything, they pull you over on the other side so you can go. That's most places how you cross. Yeah! You don't know. BC: Is it like a ferry? DT: For one car? AC: Flat thing and you have that floats, wood on that, so you have on there. And what was bad, it was very dry that year in Poland and one of the guys that was swimming near this nest thing, he tried to go underneath the thing while we we're going on and he didn't make it out, he drowned. So, we went to visit the relatives, we came back, and we couldn't use it because they had it closed off. And I hate to say it; his body was still there on the side because we had to go like 15/20 miles down on a bridge to go across on that. So those were the things on there. When we went what was an interesting part since you are catholic it will be interesting, there was a miraculous church, the first one, a Ukrainian church that was built in Poland, and it was, and my sister in law lived not too far away from there and we went there, and you couldn't believe. You think this hill is bad? I have a heck of a time walking. You can't drive up there, I had a stick we were all walking and the beautiful church there, there were no services at the time there, and on that. And they had one of the, we have icons in the church as you see. And one of the icons in the altar was missing, and they said that when the icon comes back, that the church will reopen. Well that church now is reopened but it is the oldest church in Ukraine. DT: Wow! AC: And what happened during WWII, that church used to have a copper roof on it, and when the Germans came, they wanted the roof, copper. So, they asked some of the villagers, thinking nobody would but they got somebody from another village, a couple of guys on there to take the roof off. Well, they start taking the roof off, and they died. Not only did they die, but their families did too. So, they got written in a thing on that, and they went into the cornerstone of that, what was written in there. The government had to go and replace the roof because it was in the thing that they couldn't touch that. I'm not telling you, but I knew the people that it happened to you know, you go there. So, things used to happen like you don't really realize, on that. But the church was beautiful, icons. Would you believe I took pictures and I wish I could show you because I have a lot of pictures, but they had icons on all the frescos, and they're still there. And they were good enough that I was able to take pictures on that. They had no lighting in the church or anything. But in the dark, no sunlight or whatever it was up on the hill, in the woods like, beautiful place where it was on that. But that was I think the most interesting thing we were able to go see. BC: Can you speak a little bit about the church here? You said you were one of the oldest members-- AC: Ok then--We belong to a church which now is Holy Spirit, part of it. Well, got to go further. A bad thing happened. We came to America and my dad came the first time, they were blessing St. Michaels over the church -- it's still there. But, they built the church in 1904. We had no eastern right bishops in America, so the attorneys didn't know how to legalize it. So, what they did is they made it a corporation; president, secretary, and treasurer had to be in church. So, they had it ok on that. But see, in that church it was not only Ukrainians, it was mostly Ukrainians and then there was Ruthenians, like Holy Spirit. They had the same liturgy we had, but their customs-- that's just like English, England and America they're different. So, we wanted our own on that. So, what happened is that after WWII, after WWI, Russia started having communism, and they started having influence and some of the people, especially the ones that were Ruthenians, they were for the Russians. So, what happened is that they had an election of the new officers for the church, they got there people, and they had a filibuster. The Sunday after that, they talked and talked until the people got sick and they went home, and then they elected their own people into that. So then they confronted the priests and they wanted to do things their way and the priests could not accept it that way, so they took them to court. So, just one step backwards. In 1905, the first bishop, eastern right came to United States. His name was Ortynsky (Stehen Soter Ortynsku), he was Ukrainian. He blessed the church, everything, it was legally everything complete. But, when they went to court, because it was under laws of corporation, they lost. So that's why that church, I was baptized there on that. In 1939, and my mother said it was a very sad day because when they lost they had to, there's a little building on the corner of Glenwood avenue and --Downs avenue. It was a building, it was like a cellar and my mother says that they had a precession with the communion from St. Michaels. I'd say it's about 10 blocks, they preceded it to that church. So we had the two churches together. So during, this was 1939, it must have been like 1941 I think around there. We had a mission in that church, but the mission that we were given were Brazilian fathers, which was Ukrainian. So they had it and we had a man that used to be a letter writer. He used to write to the bishop everywhere he went, we wanted the Ukrainian church here. So when they came in for the mission, he talked to them, and they said "well we're gonna look into that." So, in 1944, and I remember the date it was in September of 1944, he came to my brother's house. Now, mind you during the war, my entire family lived up to my brother's house. My brother had house, in fact that she lives in there (referring to her great-grandniece that was also getting interviewed at the time) has twenty-two rooms! Both: Wow! AC: It's a grid so nineteen of us lived there. So the priest, he came with the priest and he said that we have a priest, we have a church, and this is our pastor. And what got me is that when he spoke, he spoke the same way we did in the house. It was not dialect on that. So we had a protestant church that they bought in the hall that they bought that they had on there. And as I say, we going on, and after the war there was not that many, like sixty families to start with, but then when WWII was over, the people started coming, this was the only Catholic Ukrainian church in the area so they came here. We have in fact an awful lot of people who are from Europe-- even the younger ones, I mean they got remarried but they were from Ukraine. So, it was around 1970 we already had enough money to start building the church. I remember in the old church they used to, in fact the fathers got the architectural sketch and what the church is supposed to look like. So it was as you entered it that church was there for five years. So it came time that we had enough money we're gonna build a church--can't build it. Because there was a steel crunch. No can build, everything was all steel. So, they're making they had the church committee, in fact and my brother was one of them that was on the church committee on the building committee so they going "what should we do?" So one of the other men that was on the committee says "well how about a wooden church?" So that's the alternative. So, I went I was one of them that went to Glen Spay, they're a small church there's hunter, there's two churches that were wooden. So my brother, my oldest brother Mike he used to work for a lumber company and he wanted to go and see a church because he wanted to find out what are the problems of a wooden church you know? You don't know. So we come in there and we were very impressed and they --we had to find an architect that was from Europe, and we had his name was Osadca (Apollinaire Osadca, [1916 - 1997], Ukrainian-American architect) and he come in there and we had a, I can't remember all of the names of the architects and all that that worked with that but he had he drew the plans and then, the inside of the church we had local guy that had--local umm what's the name, builder that had people that were crafty they were specialists and things, in fact they didn't even belong to the union and the union could not do anything because they didn't have the workers that could do this kind of work. So they got the things on there, and then we had one man that was from Europe that built the inside, the icons, the screen and all he was sick, and in that he built the icon screen for that, so we were very fortunate. But if he did not--there never was a steel crunch in the United States as I remember and it never--since before then or since then, but it was just at that time. And if it was not for that, our church would not have been here, this would not been here. So it was like a--the church, god wanted our church here. And we've had people here from all over the world we have a ledger in church and it's not very big but this is already like the second one they had from that place and our church opened in November of 1977. A strange part about our church is that our church started in 1944, this one was built in 1977, and our hall was built in 1988 so it seems that the double numbers are all for our church on that. BC: Maybe it worked out for the best because this church is very beautiful. AC: We're very happy on it. When I remember they were building the Orthodox Church, its down I don't know if you could see it you can see it if you go down the street this way. When I went there inside naturally we went to see it because it was Ukrainian of course you'll go see it. And I was thinking "boy, we could not, we could never get anything that would be nicer than that." And turns out, that we got the thing, and our church has been on television, and newspapers you name it, all over the world if you'd have that. We've had people come down here in fact, one day I came in because I was working in the church I used to, when I was young do a lot of cleaning and stuff that was you know a job. Came in and a guys out here and I said "What are you doing here?" he says he was from Ohio and he wanted to ask if he could see the inside of the church. He says well I'm looking into, we want to build a wooden church he'd like to see the church. So people all over are very interested. And as I say they've been from all countries, you can't believe the countries that we've had, people that come to visit us. BC: Maybe you're starting a trend! AC: Well you know what, well the first 15 years when the church was thing, they used to have busloads. My sister lived down the street and anytime they used to go down there and my brother in law had to open the church if father wasn't here to open the church for them to see. But we had busloads of people that came to see the church. BC: That's impressive! Now umm I see there's a lot of umm decorations around here so it's not just the church services that bring people together there's more parts of it? AC: Well, we have where the project is that we're active, we have dancers. So they have on that, so they have -- all the traditions. Our weddings are traditional I says that on that things on there. So everything is on and they are, and we have to work, we are very fortunate because one of our pastors went to Florida church and they said they had Friday dinners. So he came up here and festivals, not festivals, bazaars. So he came up, and that's when we started, we started to have making, first it was only the pierogis on that they sold. And then he got Friday dinners, and we in fact we just had the festival was just-- day before Palm Sunday the day before and on that. We made very very good, we wouldn't be able to keep the church without that, God's very good to us because we're making very good money to be able to upkeep. We can't--we had to replace the roof on that. And we were able to pay for it full, they did all driveways, everything they had to do we had the money, but we had to work on it. We don't have money out of our own pockets but we worked for it. And they did too! Because when we come in there--if you come in there on when they have Friday dinners, the young ones are serving just like the things they have to do just like they got their job we got schedules everybody does their jobs. I come in on Tuesday because I come in Tuesday we make the golabki. On Wednesday morning I come in and make the pierogis. We have a schedule for everything for the whole week. We have a group that comes in there that hard boils the cabbage. We have a group come in there a guy come in there, couples that peel the onions, and we have a group that have to get the eyes out, chop the potatoes up for the pierogis on that. We have somebody that has to see that all the stuff is brought there on there. Then we have a guy that comes in a couple of them that come in they pack the golabki and the pierogis they pack them on it. We got everything all situated for everyday for that. DT: What is golabki? AC: Pigs in a blanket. Both: Ahh! AC: Golabki, that's what it is. BC: And everyone does this in their free time? AC: This all for volunteer, and they do it for all that. And I say that they come in and then they have on Tuesdays they come in the young people they and father has catechism and they have dance practice on Tuesdays. And then a lot of times they've been, dancers have appeared in a lot of other places so they have to have extra dancing on that. We've been fortunate we've had dancers from all. It was fortunate for us that when the people start coming from Ukraine and they were in concentration camps, you know in camps? All the Ukrainians came in there so what they did is what were they gonna do? There was professors and stuff on there, so people went to school. We had, they had choirs, they had dancing and everything and people learned! Things on it in there. My sister in law, my sister in law her father was a school professor a--the head guy in the school-- the principal in a high school that's what he had in Europe on that so, and then so we were fortunate on things like that. So anything else you need to know, on that? BC: Well our time is running out, is there anything else you want to tell us? AC: Well I think we about covered whatever on that, everything on there. I can't think of anything that would be on there--as I said we're very fortunate we can keep up in there and we're very fortunate to have father, father is very good if not for father, father's a business man. AC: He goes on television, you'd be surprised--one of my niece's brother in-law says that he would make a good politician because when he goes, he goes to TV station they love him over there, he very good with people on that and things. So we're very fortunate. And what's very good to is we do get along with all the other churches like there's not a lot of things. I don't know if they have it anymore, but they used to have--in the city they had a group that used to go visit the golden dome churches. So they used to go from church to church to see all the different. In fact they didn't come every year but they would come over here and father would explain things on it. And what happens when we have a--our bazaar, father has to go and people come they want to see he has to go to church and explain that the different things we have in church on there. I understand-- like your point because you're Latin rite? I grew up in the Roman Catholic because I went on that. We didn't know I was already on 12th year when the church started. So mostly, I went to first holy communion on the Latin rite because there was no place for us to go, it wasn't here. And I know more about the Latin rite than I do about our rite on that, so-- BC: Well, thank you so much for your time. AC: Hey, you're welcome. (End of Interview)    Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ann B. Czebiniak Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Czebiniak, Ann B. ; Comuniello, Briana ; Tenbus, Drew Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Ann B. Czebiniak is a first generation Ukrainian American who was born in Johnson City, NY, and worked for IBM. She is not married but has a large extended family. She is a member of Ukrainian Catholic Church and resides in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AnnCzebiniak.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-07-07 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:00 Subject The topic of the resource Czebiniak, Ann.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Russian; Poland; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30c618a53d0a06f84348e0577494274a.MP3 eb5ff021c35eb0ee83efbb42cb2b4002 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Biographical Text Irina Kirichuk was born in Kurganinsk, Russia and moved to Ukraine when she was 3. She is of Russian, Ukrainian, and Armenian ancestry.  She is hearing impaired. She came to the United States in 1993, works as a hairstylist, and lives with her family in Binghamton. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jonathan Gurewich and Andrea Esposito Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Irina Kirichuk Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:45 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-11 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kirichuk, Irina. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Armenian; Russian; Ethnic identity; Ethnic--food; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=IrinaKirichuk.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Russians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Binghamton (N.Y.); Deaf ; Hairstylists Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Irina Kirichuk Interviewed by: Andrea Esposito and Jonathan Gurewich Interpreter: Dee Davis Transcriber: Andrea Esposito and Jonathan Gurewich Date of interview: 11 April 2016 at 3:30:00 PM Interview Setting: Bartle Library, room LSG 552 at Binghamton University, Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Andrea Esposito: Okay, it's recording--Um, so if you wouldn't mind just stating your name and where you were born if you don't mind. Irina Kirichuk: Okay, sure, my name is Irina my last name is Kirichuk I was born in Russia the name of the town is Kurganinsk. It is a small town, and then when I was three years old we moved to Ukraine and I grew up there in a big city called Kiev, and four hours up from there was a small town called Berdychiv. It's a small town. AE: So you grew up in Berdychiv or Kiev? IK: Uh, actually I grew up in Berdychiv. It's like here, it's kind of like New York State. You know how you have upstate where the small towns are. AE: Mmm that kind of what it was like. It's almost the same idea. Jonathan Gurewich: And uh, as a kid did you spend a lot of time with your parents? Did you um-- IK: I spent a lot of time with my parents and my grandmother. And I have two neighbors who are Russian, and another one on my father's side of the family. My mother's side of the family there were some and my father’s side of the family had Russians and then also my father had Ukrainians who had escaped and gone to Russia. And so that is how I was born there in Russia, and then we moved to the Ukraine. AE: Um, so could you tell us about um why they like escaped? Um, to go to Russia? IK: My mother-- I don't remember exactly. My mother had told me the story when I asked and it was a little confusing, but my mother had a different last name, and I said it wasn't, it didn't seem apart of Russian, and my mother explained to me that the family was from Armenia and then the family all moved because of the war. And it just got very messed up so they escaped and moved to Russia, and then that's how she met my father. My father had been in the army. She met him and then she was pregnant with me. And I was born there in Russia and when I was three then we moved to Ukraine because my father had a lot of family there on his side. They begged him to move there. My mom also had a big family in Russia, so where should we go? They decided to move to Ukraine, but every year they would visit the family members who were in Russia. So we'd go back and forth, but I love the Ukraine side of the family more. I don't know why. Why they picked Kiev, but I did. AE: Um, so at your visits to Russia what type of experiences did you have there versus in Ukraine? IK: Oh-- hmm. Well, the two places were different. It was a beautiful city in Russia, and they spoke differently, but a little bit differently. There was a different, there were different words that they used. It was the same types of sounds, but their food was a little bit different also and I just felt as though. Ahh, people were cool (Everyone laughs). My family was cool; we both got along together in both countries really. So in both countries, so in Russia the world seemed different than Ukraine, and I picked Ukraine that I liked better. I don't know why Russia was nice, but it was more hmm, not at friendly, hmm didn't seem as friendly; their habits were more-- how should I say it-- For me, they seemed very strong but Ukraine seemed more friendly. You know like every time you saw someone they said good morning that was different than it was in Russia. So, stuff like that-- Russia wasn't bad, you know it was cool. It was a beautiful city. Everything was there but from my perspective; they were two different places, and I grew up until I was fourteen years old there, in Kiev. Or near Kiev and then I, we moved here, so, and every year I would fly there, to Russia and Ukraine, and just recently I went to Ukraine, but I couldn't fly to Russia because of the war and the problems that are between Ukraine and Russia now. So, I couldn't go visit my family even though they begged me and I told them I can't. So, my family in Ukraine had told me you really can't go there, and I decided myself that I would not go to Russia, so I was disappointed in that. It's not like I support one side over the other; I said I don't care about Putin leave him out of this I love the people and my family. That's all, so it was just different between the two places. AE: Um, so you said you couldn't go back to Russia, how long was that for, like um time period wise? IK: Now, this was just very recently, last December 2015 I flew to Ukraine to visit my family, but I couldn't go to see my family in Donetsk. I couldn't visit them because of the war, they were like right in the middle of it in Russia and I have a big family that I could have visited, but-- I, I, I can visit them because I have the birthright to get there, so there is no big deal for me to actually go there, but what if something were to happen while I was there and we discussed it with my family they were all concerned. They were all very worried. And my father said to me no, and so I respected what my father said to me so I didn't go-- And my Russian family members were upset and I told them, “Well once you get to some peace there then I promise that I will come visit”. So, hmmm. JG: So do you remember uh any activities that you would do uh that were maybe different, traditions that were different between your Russian side of the family and Ukrainian side of the family? IK: Oh yeah, they were very different traditions. Um, hmm, like for Easter the tradition was different we would always go to church and it would be overnight, and then they would make the holy water, and bless us, everyone there and have eggs and cakes and pierogis, and that was a tradition in Ukraine and also we had apples for celebration that was the tradition there. And Christmas time was you know January 7th, was the tradition of Christmas in Ukraine. In Russia it was December 25th for Christmas, but now before the tradition had been the same but it changed around. And, let's see the differences here Russia, now understand that Russia we never followed the tradition there because my grandmother's traditions were from Armenia and my mother, my grandmother and mother came from Armenia so there was that and I was a little bit confused because it is Armenian is it Russian is it Ukraine? I couldn't figure out which one it was. On my father's side of the family they said you had to pick one and I said, but I love them all. I love all the traditions. It doesn't matter to me I love them all (Everyone laughs). I love all the traditions it doesn't matter to me I love them all, so I was just fascinated with everyone's tradition. So like the Armenian tradition was you must when we move to Russia you had to have nice clothes you had to have to show everything polite have food traditions that were handed down that had to be proper and all the family had to get together and stuff like that so. JG: So, when did you uh decide to come to America? IK: Well, I never thought about that it, was my mother who did she had made all the plans and my mother flew to Russia and filled out some forms there, and then my mother said to me we're going to, well we're planning to go the US and I was very excited I thought for a visit oh yay! We're going to the US I was so excited. Oh, I loved traveling and then my mom planned this, and something happened and we couldn't make it, and then my mom met. Bush's Father who was the president before. Dee: Oh, you mean the president before Bush? -- Yeah, yeah he was, he was George too. IK: My mother met George Bush and begged him to let us in and I remember I was very small and I met him, I didn't know who he was I didn't know he was famous and my mother said this man is from the United States and I said, “well, oh it's nice to meet you” (everyone laughs). I couldn't hear anything so I just shook his hand and my mother explained and begged him and said please let us come to the US, and he signed the papers; we needed to do that in 1993. So that's when we moved here, and then a few years-- I thought we would be here for a few years and then go back and my mother said no we're going to live here and I said what? I was so upset at that time I was very upset, but and plus I asked my mother why is it that we moved I don't understand why we moved; don't you like Russia, and she said no what she wanted me to see me have a good life for myself here because of being deaf there; were more opportunities here in the US. There are interpreters. In Russia and Ukraine, it is very different it is very different, it is very difficult there for deaf people it's more oppression by hearing people of deaf people there which means they tell you, you can't do this you can't do that and you don't have any freedom like you do here. Here, we have so many more opportunities to do whatever; it is you want and in Russia they tell you, you can't. Like I wanted to be a doctor and they said you can't be a doctor; you're deaf. Here I could've if I wanted to and so my experience. Here, there is a very good life here I could have a good job here, get good money here and earn a good living, but it's a little boring for me right here it's like well-- Let me explain a little bit um, good job, and family, and it's always like very family oriented. With uh in Russia you have good friends and family and you enjoy yourself so much, and once you're done with work you meet up with family and friends and do things and money is not so great. Would have been better there if we had the money with the family. For my perspective, I like Europe because it is more active, there are more things to do. You can keep busy, you can enjoy yourself. Here it's a little bit different. I think I've lived here for twenty- let me see here--yea, twenty-four years I've lived here. When I recently flew to Ukraine I was so excited to go there I know times have changed but I was still just thrilled to being, doing things and being there that time just flew for me. I was there just a week and I said there's no way! You know, I wanted to be there three weeks. I wanted more, it just seemed like not enough time, and here I feel like ehhhh, and (everyone slightly laughs). You know I try to be positive about things and keep busy and have my kids, do things with my kids. So it's a different feeling. AE: Um, you said that your first few years here you didn't want to be here like is there any particular reason why you didn't like America at first? Or-- IK: Well the first time when I moved here I didn't know how to speak English and I didn't know any American sign language so I couldn't communicate, and with my friends I felt like what do I do and my father told me just be patient give it a couple of years, two or three years and then we'll move back to Ukraine and my father said I promise and I said fine. So I was patient, I went to school it was a mainstream school it was not a deaf residential school it was a mainstream school so I went to the school and it was hard to try to lip read and try to learn English and every day I cried and I'd ask my teacher I don't understand can you repeat. And just went along for three years and after that my dad said are you ready to go back to Russia and I said yes dad come on let's go I was so excited I was jumping for joy, but for some reason something happened with my family to try to fly there and my sister was here as well and my mom stayed so it was just my father and I. So my mom wanted to stay in the US with my sister and I didn't want to I wanted to go back, and then I realized and my father said to me, we'll go visit if you decide that you want to stay, you want to move back we'll do that so we visited and realized wow I could see that--I decided I didn't want to stay I had to come back to the US because I, I, I don't know why it just hit me all of a sudden cause deaf people had warned me from Ukraine that you should stay in the US. Because they could see that I was happy. And they were grumpy all the time, and it's not that they were not happy before they were very frustrated with things they were very stressed; they didn't have enough money to pay the bills there was so much going on. There were problems with doctors and I realized that oh my goodness I asked my family and they'd say are you okay? And they said please you should go back. Visiting is fine, but living here is not good for you and I realized after came back I realized that I just have to stay positive and stay here. That was the same with my husband. I married my husband, he's from Ukraine, and he moved here and it was the same sort of thing he was very upset, he was not happy being here he didn't want to stay here he wanted to go back, and he begged me, and begged me and I promised him just be patient we'll see what will happen after one or two years. And I said now this is for me, it's for me, if you love me you should be patient to stay here for a while my husband said okay and he stayed and I felt bad, but I decided if you want to move back to Russia we will or the Ukraine. My husband decided no thanks, I can't, it would be better to stay here so we've been happy here ever since. It's just given me very much opportunity better life here than I could have there. Better job and for me being deaf in the community it was a good opportunity, I had interpreters I had everything I needed here and hmm-- it's just more free, like whatever I want I can do. There they were constantly telling me I can't do things. I tried to learn and they said no, you can't you can't do that you. They would limit me and now it is more free, but it is not as free as it is here, it's not. JG: So when your parents first came to the United States did they decide to come to Binghamton or did you move to Binghamton later? IK: No, Um, it's funny, the government had given us tickets for the family to move and because it was through the government's assistance they were giving this away to people who they would say here is where you have to go, and my mother did not know what it was and I was hoping to stay in New York City, that's what I was hoping because I had flew in there and I was just fascinated with that place I loved it so then we stayed at the airport to wait, and they had to check our names and make sure everything was in order, and there was a huge line of people and they'd said where are you going to be going and they told us we were going to Binghamton. So we got on the airplane, little teeny airplane and came here it was so small I had never seen anything so small, but um so we moved here. And we had an apartment, and they, we had everything, it was new because the government helped subsidize it for us and they had apartment, food, and clothes, everything was there the bed, it was furnished! So we were, I was really lucky. And my friend who just recently moved did not get an apartment had to do all of this for themselves, they had to look for themselves, they had to buy the food for themselves, like when I moved here in 1993 they provided everything to me, but now my friend who just recently moved did not get that. And immigration has become much harder it was easier uh when I came, but um and the government told me where to come and I came here and I've never gone anyplace else, I've always been in Binghamton the whole time. My life until I got married, my children were born here in Binghamton, so we're all here. Because I realized I wanted to go to New York City, and I'm realizing now that it's more quiet here it's more comfortable here, I can afford things better here than in New York City. New York is very expensive because I've asked my friends what do you think do you like life there and they said yea but we have to work so much to afford everything so I'll go traveling and have my enjoyment that way. AE: Um when you uh moved here what did your uh parents do for a living, was it hard for them to find a job or did the government help? IK: No, uh actually my parents moved here and started going to school. Yea my parents went to school they went to BOCES and studied English first of all to learn English, and then the government helped with everything, and my parents and my family for money they started, they gave us food stamps. Uh, we had Medicare we had all the assistance until my father was ready then. My father wanted a job, but he didn't know how to communicate in English yet, so my father got pretty grumpy about that. I think he studied for two years and then he started working from BOCES; he got work as a mechanic he would fix lights he was very happy with that. He went along with that, but he felt it wasn't enough, he wasn't satisfied. And I was in my school, just being in high school main-stream here and then a few years later they brought an interpreter for me, my father was working very hard and then went back to school because he wanted to study to be a truck driver, a long-haul trucker, so he was successful at that and now it's been about fifteen years, oh maybe seventeen years now he's been that kind of work. He's very successful, he's very happy. My mother never did have a job she stayed home and took care of her children, me and my sister, and my father was the only one who ever worked. And that was all-- And also we didn't have any family here me my sister my father and my mother just the four of us that was it when we moved here we didn't have any other family here, we didn't have any friends we started to build our group of friends, but in the start, at the beginning it was it was very we were very lonely, we were very grouchy, we didn't understand things. But then slowly things built up, and now I have many new friends, and my circle has just grown. And no other of my family has moved here, it's just been the four of us, and my father wants to try to bring my grandmother here and she doesn't want to. She wants to stay there she said my blood is in Ukraine period. This is where I stand. AE: Um, when you were building up your circle of friends did you find them to be more Ukrainian immigrant or people from just around Binghamton in general? IK: Well, actually I had friends from school from all over the world, Vietnam, Africa I met a lot of people. My first experience when I moved here, I had never seen colored people, people of color ever. Never ever, people from Vietnam, people who were black, people from the world I had never seen. I thought, I said to my father where are these people from their skin is black my father said because really in Ukraine and in Russia it was only white people we're all very the same, very homogeneous. And then I moved here and my jaw would drop you know, it's cold here you have to wear long sleeves and you know I had never seen this sort of thing like fruit in the winter we never had that, they have fruit here in the winter like I said how do you get fruit in the winter, how do you get strawberries in the winter, it's winter, how do you do that!? And my father said, well he was also shocked by this. Oh this stuff is good even though it was winter and there were all these things that were new to us, the clothes that we were weird, we had never seen things like this, my eyes were always popping out my head, you know, he'd say it's not nice to stare at people with your mouth open so close your mouth. Yea, but now I know how it is. And I have friends from Ukraine, there are a lot of people from Ukraine here, a whole lot of people and uh Russia too. So I've gone through becoming friends with them chatting with two of the Russian church's they have, they have a Ukrainian church as well they have lots of different religions from Russia and they don't match me too much. And mine was its, O-R-C-H-E-N, Orchen was the name of the church, and that's the one that I had gone to and they have two languages, they would speak Russian, and they would speak English, it was better for me to help me learn. AE: So, you went to church when you were a kid and when you got older you stopped going or was it something else? IK: Hmm, Anytime, in Europe I would go to church any time whenever I wanted to, I could go or not go. Then when I moved here I went regularly it was every Sunday I went, and I was grouchy about that (everyone laughs). But I had to attend church until I said to my mom why is it I have to go to church, I don't believe in what they teach, and my mother said that's not nice to say, and I said I'm just being honest with you. I believe in Jesus Christ but the church is not helping me at all they tried to explain all these different rules and I feel like what are they. Because my grandmother, my grandmother had told me always you have to believe in Jesus Christ and one God, it's not the church, it's Jesus Christ and she would explain when they tell you these other things, blah blah blah -- All these different religions, different stories and my mother said it's called like a tree. It's like a tree, there's a catholic church, there's a Baptist church, there's all this and I'm not against them it's just my mother and my grandmother told me what's important is in your heart and talking to God and that's it. That's what I follow, so I was patient to go to church until I asked my parents and said to them. Because I can't hear or understand what they say anyway so I would stand around for nothing, it was very boring for me until they brought in an interpreter and then I was more inspired there because I could understand what they were talking about and the topics they were talking about it didn't matter if they were speaking Russian or whatever. I couldn't hear what they were saying, but I tried my best to lip read but it was very hard for me because the priest would you know moving around, couldn't read his lips as he was changing his position and it was until it was I was 1993, I graduated I stopped going to church after graduation. That's when I had stopped, then I went once and while for Easter services or Christmas or some sort of special event or if we needed to pray for my family or if there were problems with the war. We would go to church to pray for that, and I still have the faith. I'm never rude to people, I don't mean to insult anybody about church, just want to let you know. AE: No. JG: No, not at all, so overall how would how, how was your childhood influenced by your Ukrainian and Russian and Armenian heritage, and how did that uh come with you to America? IK: Hmm, good question. I grew up, I had a lot of experiences growing up and also I was confused and language was confusing, but I'm really very thankful to my mother and my grandmother for teaching me three languages-- I just grew up the same in all three places in Ukraine, Russia you know. I don't remember all of it. You know I was always playing outside a lot and did that sort of thing and learning how to communicate, but my family, my whole family knew that I was deaf, and so they would teach me a lot, every day they would teach me the three different languages and now I feel like I can speak all these languages, and my two kids as well are learning I'm teaching them as well too. Like how to speak those languages. DD: You mean-- let the interpreter make this clear, do you mean Ukraine--Ukraine and Russian? IK: Yes. JG: And have you ever visited, uh, Armenia, or have you ever engaged in your Armenian side of the family? IK: No I never have. I never visited there, but, it, I've never gone to visit. I've always visited Russia and Ukraine. It's been-- hmm-- I moved here and we would go back every year, and then I didn't visit for ten years and finally I just recently went in December. I flew there and I was very thrilled because I was so far behind seeing people and Ukraine has changed a lot because I haven't seen it in ten years! There were many changes there-- Yeah it's different now. It wasn't like it was when I was there, it's not like my Ukraine, I liked how it was before. Now with the changes-- Hmm-- It just feels like-- It's confusing, it's startling, because it's changed. Now they have mixtures of uhh people of color, people intermarry with people of color, so that's a big change. It's more expensive to live there now-- and people seem all grouchy all the time, it's like-- and I realize that, oh, I do not want to go back, I'll go to visit, and that's all, and that's just my opinion. Yeah, I don't want to go back. But, I do have a house there and I miss my family there, but just to visit, and see everybody and do that, and then come back here. When I came back home I missed it here so much it's like the opposite of how it used to be, I don't know. AE: Umm did you take your family with you, when you visited Ukraine recently, or? IK: No, I went by myself. I went by myself. Next year we're definitely going with the family. My kids have never been to Ukraine, my daughter's never been to Ukraine because it was ten years ago. My son was two years old, eh, or, no he was nine months old when we went, or, we went when he was nine months and eighteen months and he doesn't remember anything of that, so we've decided that next year, we are, I am going to go with my husband and my two kids and we've decided we are going to fly there to get this experience for them, to get this exposure for them. And also-- I'm hoping that Ukraine and Russia will have ended the war by then and they'll be at peace, so that we can go to Ukraine and then go visit Russia to Donetsk back home. I hope you know I'm hoping, I've I've promised my family we're going to go there. And, and also to go to my family in Armenia, my mother has a huge family there in Armenia, and-- and, also, some have gone-- to, to Israel and I've never visited there either-- so they keep saying, "when are you coming? When are you coming" I say I will-- but-- yeah-- my only tie is really to Ukraine, I feel pulled there, that's my favorite place. I don't know. Hmm. AE: You can go. JG: Have you been to other parts of Ukraine? Uhh, in other regions, maybe in the east, or the west? IK: Uhhh-- I have gone a lot to the east, in Ukraine, umm, hmm, the name of the town is-- Zhytomyr. It's a very small town, and I would go to Kiev, which is the big city, and also-- Lviv is a big city there as well, that is very strongly, Ukrainian, people's traditional dress, and it's more like the countryside-- it's more like the countryside-- so I've gone travelling there, and on my father's side there are a lot of people who live there-- in Donetsk, and also part of Ukraine also, so I've travelled to visit my family there, and also-- it-- let me see what's it called-- oh, Crimea-- also in the Crimea. Do you know about Crimea? JG: Yes. IK: Yes, that's, I went there, and that is part of Ukraine but it's already been stolen by the Russians. But yeah, and I would always travel in different cities, in different cities around big cities a lot, I would go to my father would always take me travelling with him, a lot. JG: And, when you would travel all over Ukraine did you notice a very big difference in the culture of these different places? Or was it mostly the same? IK: It was a little different-- like, the buildings would be different, the architecture, but it was the same food, it was the same clothing, but the buildings were different the churches were different they had different shapes in the different places. And also museums were a little bit different in the different places. And you know, cars would be different (laughs) sometimes they'd have the older cars that I'd never seen (laughs) before-- And the houses were beautiful, they were like, they looked like museums themselves. They were just-- I don't know what to say just amazing houses, and some I've I've never seen I said, "dad is that a museum?" he said, "No people live there." I said, "What, really? The house would look like a museum." He said "no really it's a house, really." But yeah, they're beautiful. And also-- they had an old house like from-- what would you call it-- uhh what's it called-- outside where they cut the plants, a house, where they it was like old fashioned, it was very fascinating that people still lived there, and I asked my father about this "Do you mind asking them?" because people don't understand me when I speak sometimes so I asked my father to ask,. He said "hey, my daughter wants to know how you live, how you protect yourself from the, oh, from the water coming through the roof that was made from plants?" And they would cut down trees and use this for their roofs and it was amazing to me, it was very old but still was working so it was very cool-- yeah. AE: Umm, did you travel other places besides Ukraine and Russia? IK: (long pause) Uhh-- yes I have gone to Poland, ummm where else-- Germany-- hmm where else-- Germany-- and well here I've gone to like the Bahamas the Dominican Republic, things like that, but in Europe, growing up when I moved here at 14, I moved here, so, what I'd done is more travel around the U.S. and in the U.S. I've gone to Puerto Rico, I've gone to the Dominican Republic; I've gone to the Bahamas, Mexico, things like that, on vacation. Always like during the summer. But, I still travel, I love traveling, I love learning about different places, I love all the differences of how they are and the different countries. Now last year were supposed to we were planning to go to-- Italy, we were planning to go to Italy but it never happened. IK: because everything got messed up, we had a lot of conflicts. So again we're hoping, we're hoping that we'll go sometime maybe during the winter we'll see. But, I, I really want to go to Spain. Yes, I, I have promised that I'm-- and so we'll see, we'll see when that will happen. Because my kids have school, and their sports and all that I can't ignore my kids I want to leave once they finish school we can go as a whole family. So-- AE: Umm, so, h- for your kids-- umm-- how have you been exposing them to-- the culture that you may have grown up with, or do you go, like, go more towards the American culture, or a hybrid of both? IK: I use both, we have a mixture of both that we teach them. Sometimes my kids will be like-- they'll find out something they'll see a picture they'll say that's really cool I've never seen a house like that and then I'll explain to them that it's like well that was like from my grandmother and grandfather's time you never met them they had died and they'll say if they had different clothes back then and I'll explain that, and the food, I explain about the food sometimes my husband and I still speak Ukraine at home. We and my kids will listen say what is that so we teach them that too, and always when we go out we speak English, but at home we speak Ukraine my husband and I talk abo- talk all the time in that and my kids don't if we don't want them to know some of the words sometimes-- We'll speak and they don't get it-- So I'll hide what I'm saying with my husband sometimes by them not understanding and also I'll speak to them and they'll understand but I want them to be able to speak back to me in it and they're not so good in that. They just know a little bit, of, of speaking back to me. If it's something difficult they can't do it, but uh I've been thinking of setting up, maybe, because I have umm my mother-in-law and my uncle, they're willing to have my children stay with them for three months during the summer and learn how to speak the language there so I've been thinking about that and uhh we have the food we have the culture sometimes though they'll ask me, "how did you meet dad? How did you meet?" And I said well he's from Ukraine and they love listening to that story they love hearing about other countries and also my father also explains to them as well, and he'll tell them about his experience and his history in Ukraine, and all that, because he had more experience than I did, so he can explain everything and my kids are just fascinated they'll ask him questions forever they're fascinated with this and then they say now how the toys are different than they are here they don't have these kind of dolls, like, different kinds of toys, and they'll ask my dad about that. And cars that are different, and I have dolls from I have twelve dolls and my kids would say wow why do you have them I've never seen these kinds of dolls and I would explain well this is is a tradition from where I grew up and it was cool. So now, I allow them to play with them. They've noticed the cars are different and-- you know, like, valuable silverware and cups and from Ukraine I show them and they say "oh so this is from Ukraine it's very decorative" it's like clothes also that have a lot of stitching on them from Ukraine, a lot of embroidery, and they say now why's that? And I say it's a tradition that they have in Ukraine for that. And sometimes they'll find something in school and say "hey mom look what I have there's a book from Ukraine it's talking about a story from Ukraine and they will read that a little more. And I've explained everything to them they ask me if they want to know I explain to them because they love it and sometimes I'll say to my father "can you explain to them in more detail about what they're asking (Andrea laughs) and they're just, huh, wrapped attention to him, and it's, I'm shocked how many questions they have about it and he always explains everything they ask, he's always done that he always explains and sometimes I try to bring them to church to see how it is-- how they have Ukrainian eggs, things like this Ukrainian art, at the church, things that are different and they'll say this is really cool oh these are all Ukrainian? I say yes they are they say why this is why they have the building this way because? And they have very popular wooden eggs and wooden spoons and things like this that they have in Ukraine. AE: Umm did family from Ukraine ever visit you at Binghamton? IK: No, hmm. We've tried, we tried to get a visa for them but it's not easy to do. So, we've tried, huh, we tried to bring them here we tried to bring family to visit and one problem, this biggest problem is the visa. I don't know why that is, you have to put down you have a job you have to fill out all this stuff and they still denied them a visa so I don't know why I don't know why there are many times; I think maybe about thirty times we've filled out a visa application so it's been every year and it's never been accepted, never been approved. And, so we're always the one's to go there and visit, and I don't mind, I don't mind, I'm not complaining about it, that's how it is. Also, they can't really afford to come here. Like for example, here if you have $100, there it's like 2,500, so, it's-- they work and they earn like $20 a month. So, there's no way they can afford coming here. Hmm. And it's uhh the different economy, we have very different economies-- many Europeans or Russian or Ukrainians want to come here and get jobs here to earn the money, they don't want to live here they want to get the jobs here, and-- (Dee clears throat) the problem is having no one can speak English. So-- and also, I'd ask my family how can you eat how can you afford to eat they said Well first we have to buy food we don't have anything left for clothes, or for their electronics things like that, but thank God that I'm here and this is good here and I always support them I will give my family things they need I will give them what I can what they need. AE: Umm what do you and your husband do for like employment here? IK: My husband-- well was laid off two years ago. He used to work for Pepsi he was the manager at Pepsi. And he was laid off. So I now am a Hairstylist and Cosmetologist, and I love it I love my work. JG: Have you always wanted to be a hairstylist? IK: Uhh umm when I was little, I'd would always go to the salon and watch and learn how they did things with nails and dream that when I grew up I could do this, but what I really wanted to do was become a doctor. That was my dream to become a doctor. And then, I was told no; you can't you can't you can't you can't. It's a long story but I decided to change and try for my second path, which was hair styling and I love it was really my dream, has always been to be a doctor growing up. I told my parents I want to be a doctor I want to be a doctor; I promise I'm going to be a doctor but then life just messed me up. Hmm. But, I love doing hair, I get to meet a lot of people, all the people who I work with know I'm deaf, they know I can speak somewhat, and, if they speak quickly I don't understand I have to say "can you slow down?" and then I understand them but uhh me and my boss, we get along very smoothly. Everything works out and the customers who come in works very smoothly we've never had a problem (knocks on table) and I have to knock wood after I say that. Of course! But I'm very happy with that. Now before, I had worked as a teaching assistant and this was for kids this was for three years and I had to quit that, and then, I went back to school, to study Cosmetology, and I've become certified and licensed and so now I have my job and I'm very happy with that. And before I-- just stayed at home and watched my children and my husband had worked for Pepsi for many years and once he was laid off he tried to find a job and he was unable to. So we're waiting to see if he finds a different job. AE: So how long have you been working as a hairstylist and Cosmetologist? IK: Ahh let's see it hasn't been long time, it was just recently let me see-- let me see-- hmm-- four months, four or five months four or five months-- hmm-- since licensed, since being licensed. AE: So, umm, you said it was a, uh, cool story about you and your husband met? So, like, you care to share? IK: Hmm, ok! I was here, and my best friend was getting married, and she sent me an invitation said you have to promise to come back to Ukraine for my-- to be the maid of honor for my wedding. And so I flew to Ukraine, and I stayed there for one month and a half. I stayed with my grandmother that time, and my grandmother was ill, also she had a stroke so I was taking care for her. I was going between her and my friend's house, and then my friend had her wedding, and I asked her who that guy is over there? And my best friend said "Oh my, he's a handsome guy!" I said yeah, but who uhh, do I know him?" "No you've never met him." "I said fine, but, that, was my husband." And my best friend said that they said to her, who is that girl over there? She said, she's beautiful. I said Well yeah, (all laugh) so that's kind of how it went. And I had a boyfriend already at that time, so, it just happened my best friend's wedding and I met him. We looked at each other it was very nice; we chatted and he spoke very fast and I said now uhh speak a little more slowly so that I can understand you. So that's where I met him at the wedding and then we just fell in love right away, it was very quick, and then-- he didn't know that I was from the U.S., because I didn't tell him, and he knew that I visited my grandmother all the time, he knew where I lived there with my grandmother every day he would come to visit and help and do that. And then, at the very end, we'd been dating maybe I'd say, oh, two months, no no no, two weeks, two or three weeks; we were dating, and I said to him, "you know I do have a boyfriend." He said I don't care; I do not care where's your boyfriend he's not here right? I said "Right! I just want to tell you the truth you don't care? Ok fine." So we dated, and-- he showed me around new buildings and things that I'd never been. So, I got to learn about these new places; I'd never visited before and finally I said goodbye I won't see you and he said what are you talking about you're teasing right? And I said no, I'm not! I won't see you again! This is it. And he thought I was joking. And I said no, I'm not joking I'm telling you the truth. And he said yeah right sure; I'll see you tomorrow and I said no, I'm going to be, going I'm flying away tomorrow and he said no no, I don't believe you, you're teasing so, he gave me a kiss I flew away. And, he stopped by my grandmother's house and says "where's Irina Where's Irina where is she?" she says well she doesn't live here she was just visiting she lives in the U.S. and my husband was shocked, but I had I had already told him he didn't believe me (Dee laughs) he thought I was teasing. So, ok fine. So, he decided to ask my best friend whose wedding I went to he said do you have Irina's address. Do you know how I can contact her? She said Well fine and she gave him my address, so he kept in contact with me he would write to me back and forth and while I was here-- the boyfriend I had here-- I mean-- it-- I really had forgotten about the man who's become my husband, I'd really kind of forgotten about him. I got his letter and I thought hmm-- who's that? Huh-- that name I don't quite remember. So, I, so I wrote to him I said "I'm sorry I don't know who you are" and he got very mad. So, then he sent me a picture and then I said, "huh it looks so unfamiliar, oh shit! Yeah I know who that is, yeah" So we kept in touch, we kept in touch, and, he told me he wanted to date me he wanted to keep in touch and it happened that my grandmother became sick again; we were very worried and my father was supposed to fly there but he couldn't make it. He had to work, he wasn't allowed to take time off, so he asked me if I wouldn't mind going. So, I said sure and I went and I stayed for two months with my grandmother and took care of her after her stroke she was in the hospital and I had to pay for her bills and do all the stuff involved with that I took care of her and then the man who became my husband, he uh, he came to visit again, kept in touch, and he asked me to get engaged with him after three months of dating. I turned him down, second time he asked me I turned him down. And my grandmother said to me "I like him!" and I said "I know, I know" and my grandmother said "I want to see you married, I'm still alive I want to see you married before I die" I said "I know grandma I know I know but don't rush me I need to have the right guy, I need to find the right man who I love!" and she said "he seems like a nice man" and my grandmother said to me "remember, don't think about money" I said "no I'm not looking for money I'm looking for love. My grandmother said to me, when she, you met him, I met my husband and we were married in two weeks. I said Grandma that was a long time ago; it's different now she said you have to follow your stomach do you have butterflies there? You have to follow your heart do you feel love there, then do it! And I thought hmmm, but, I decided go ahead and get engaged. And so I got engaged with my husband and married him very quickly. And then, he stayed in Ukraine, it's funny, umm it was like, we were married, we didn't, I didn't have the dress or anything it was just the two of us went signed the papers and that was it. And, there were fifty people who were there, the same age as me, had a party, we didn't have any family at all. And my parents had no idea that I was married, my father knew I was engaged but he didn't know we'd actually gone in and signed the papers and made it legal, so, when I flew back, he said well why didn't you-- why did you go back to the U.S., he wanted me to stay in Ukraine, I said hang on a second I have to go there I have to talk to my father, so I flew back and I told my boyfriend uhh-- we're broken up that's it he was mad and I said well ohh uhh ohh well I love this other man. So, that's how I told my father that I'm married my father said "you're supposed to wait, you're supposed to have the dress, you're supposed to have everything." I said, "ehhh, doesn't matter" he said OK fine. Next year, we'll have the family, we'll have the wedding; we'll have a huge affair when you get married. And I told my husband well, you're going to have to come here to the U.S. and my husband said no he wanted me to stay in Ukraine! And I said but, but I'm going to college I'm going to be stuck he said I don't care you can start here in Ukraine and so I was very angry at that-- and then I told him Well fine, we should get divorced he said "what! We just got married!" You want to get divorced? I said because, I love you but I don't want to stay here. So, I said if you love me, then you'll come with me. He said ok, so he came with me here, and he was grumpy for a while, but as it went on like after a couple of years, I said I will always be there with you we were always helping each other I would help him translate things he would go to school and he'd say he wanted a job I said you have to be patient you have to focus on school first he didn't want to do that and finally he's the smart guy but after two or three months he would pick up English just like that and he got a job and he just took off and-- like my father (snaps fingers) it was like my father just right away didn't care about the schooling. Who cares, just get the job and he picked up English very well and now he does very well he doesn't write so well in English but he speaks very well; he knows how to speak. So, it's very amazing. So we've been married sixteen years now hmm. Yeah. And-- also I, I was thinking about my grandmother had said see? You're still married, and she was there when we were married and then it was a few years after that my grandmother said I want to see grandchildren! I said we're trying! We're trying! And then I was pregnant and my grandmother died, so, I always promised my grandmother-- grandchildren but I was very very close with my grandmother and grandfather there, very close to them, but, my mom's side of the family my grandmother was, I would see her, she was very sickly I never met my grandfather on my mother's side. My father's side I saw more often my grandmother and my grandfather and all the family there. Anything else? JG: I think we're uhh I think we're uhh-- good? AE: Uhh yeah, I think we're good. Thank you so much. JG: Thank you so much. IK: Mhmm you're welcome. JG: It was very nice to hear your story. AE: It was very nice thank you. IK: Well thank you! (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Irina Kirichuk Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kirichuk, Irina ; Gurewich, Jonathan ; Esposito, Andrea Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Irina Kirichuk was born in Kurganinsk, Russia and moved to Ukraine when she was three. She is of Russian, Ukrainian, and Armenian ancestry. She is hearing impaired. She came to the United States in 1993, works as a hairstylist, and lives with her family in Binghamton. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-11 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Irina Kirichuk.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-21 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:45 Subject The topic of the resource Kirichuk, Irina. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Armenian; Russian; Ethnic identity; Ethnic--food; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6a19fd785b1d092b0c36c68f8793d76.jpeg 8ef99edb98dd0ae1c6597004ad5d87b9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906a8ed5320d036b07a41532ace33917.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9671362edf0dd60a52389b737ab770d9.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constantine Markotsis and Russell Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Gulachok Biographical Text Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michaelis a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:23 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-12 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MichaelGulachok.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainian Americans; Ukrainians; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Gulachok Interviewed by: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Transcriber: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 09:52 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Russell Brown: Hello, I'm Russell Brown, and I am here today with Constantine Markotsis. Today is April 6th, 2016 and the time is currently 9:52 AM and we are here at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York to interview Michael Gulachok to find out more about the history of the Ukrainian American Community of the Southern Tier. The two of us aim to explore the complexities of your past as a couple with first generation and third generation immigrant backgrounds. Michael Gulachok: I'm a 3-rd generation Ukrainian, my grandparents came over in the early 1900's. They first came into Pennsylvania and then up to this area. My grandfather wanted to be a farmer, and my grandmother wanted to stay in town. So, they opened a restaurant, which I think started around 1928, and it is still over here on Harry L Drive the Oasis Restaurant, but it has been out of the family hands for quite some time. RB: Could you please tell us a little bit about where you are from? MG: I/m from this area, I was born in Binghamton at Lourdes Hospital 65 years ago, or maybe that was 56, no (chuckles), 65 years ago, and I grew up mostly in Candor and Owego and I graduated from Owego Free Academy, SUNY Binghamton and pretty much lived in the area all my life. Constantine Markotsis: If I could just interject, where in Eastern Europe are your roots from? MG: What would now be the southeastern most part of Poland, it's a small village outside of a town called Sanok, the village name is Ulychne, there is a great website Ulucz.com and it comes in English, and that'll tell you all about the village. There you can read all about the village. The history is actually quite interesting, just a little place and it seems to have great significance, and also on top of that, many of the people in this church came from that small village. CM: And so, I guess that some of the original migrants came and told their families and neighbors to come here for work? MG: Yeah come here to the EJ factories and IBM. A lot of people would come here over Scranton because that is mostly coal mining down there. For instance, I had a great Uncle who died in a coal mining accident, I think it was 1932, so I feel it was a little bit of a better life up here. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about where your wife (Nataliya) is from? MG: My wife Nataliya is from a town which is very close to the Romanian border, and it's called Chernivtsi. It's really quiet a nice city, it has a cultural component, there is a university there (Chernivtsi University). If you look at a picture of Chernivtsi (university), it looks like the architects were on psychedelics or something. I mean it is just so many different designs. If you ever get a chance look up Chernivtsi. She (Nataliya) is from there and her family lived in a small village outside of Chernivtsi. Her mother is still alive, plus she has her son, granddaughter and brother were still there. Her brother was living in the United States for 10 years or so, but he went back. And she had another brother who passed away. RB: Could you describe your family's life in Ulychne? MG: Well you see right now the Ukrainians were pushed out of Ulychne in 1946 by the Polish government. They were mostly resettled in what is now western Poland on the border of Germany and/or Ukraine. So Ulychne now and it has been since '46 or '47 is basically Polish, there are some Ukrainians still left but mostly Polish. And it is kind of isolated, there is a foot bridge as one place you can use to get to it (Ulychne). Then there is a bridge as another way and then there is a ferry. It's on the Sand River and I have been there twice. RB: How did you like it there in Ulychne? MG: Oh, I loved it! I couldn't live there. But there was a church there that is the oldest existing wooden Carpathian style church in Poland, and it's on a hillside looking over Ulychne. It dates from about 1620. It is a museum now and they don't have services there now. But if you go on the website you will see pictures of it. Also, I have to say when the Germans came through in '42 or something, a lot of the village either by the Germans or the Polish was burned. Basically, they destroyed it. We have a map, but I don't know if it is here, but there is a map from the early '30's of Ulychne it actually shows where everyone lived. There is a legend and numbers on the houses and you can actually see where my great grandparents lived. CM: You say that the Ukrainian community was kicked out in '46, but your family left ways before that when it was still Austrian? MG: Yeah, it was a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and we had relatives there when they were kicked out. Supposedly there is a family legend where we had a relative who had a grocery store there and when the Germans came though they shot her on the spot because of her protesting. We had relatives there when the Poles relocated them. But my relatives came over around 1912. My grandfather was 16 and my grandmother was from the same village. Her last name was Mareyko, Julia Mareyko and she came over two years later. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about why your wife came over? MG: She had relatives over here, she had an uncle who was a banker over in New Haven. By banker I don't mean he had money, he just worked as a banker (chuckles). He sponsored her, and she got a green card out of the lottery system and so did her brother Wassel and they both were living in Brooklyn. That is how she came over about 18 years ago. RB: When your grandparents lived in Ulychne do you know how they felt about the quality of life there? MG: It wasn't very good. There were land barons who controlled basically everything, and they only thing they did there was wood, vegetables, meat, cattle, and things of that sort. They would have to give a lot of it away to the barons. RB: Do you know why your wife decided to move over? MG: A better life. It's rough over there. The economy for a long time has not been very good in the Ukraine. CM: Just to clarify, what year did you say your wife moved to the US? MG: I am only guessing it was 16 or 18 years ago. I met her 15 years ago this May. She had been in the country for about two or three years at that time. CM: So right around 2000 basically? MG: A little before that yeah. I think '98. CM: So, then she lived through a lot of the Soviet Era? MG: Oh yeah. For instance, I took her to see Baryshnikov at the Anderson Center, and we had great seats and we were sitting right in front. And when I was telling her "Oh we are going to go see Baryshnikov, she really didn't know who he was, and I asked myself why she did not know. He defected in the '70s in Toronto before coming to the United States and you know the Soviet Union is not going to be allotting Baryshnikov over there. So, she really didn't know her story. CM: So, you could say in America you were able to learn more about Ukrainian history perhaps more than someone who actually lived there? MG: Oh yeah. Everything was Sovietized and it's basically what the Russians wanted them to know and learn. So, they had very limited knowledge of the United States and we were always portrayed as the devil. CM: Do you think the people bought into that, or was her family consciousness of the fact that something wasn't right? MG: I wouldn't say that about her parents, but, her contemporaries and her peers probably got that after a while because you can listen to radio for a year or get a bootleg movie and then they question why the US has such nicer things over there. You know the story: A Soviet athlete would walk into a supermarket and see 30 different types of shampoo and it was just mind blowing to them. RB: Based on your own experience what do you think sets 1st generation and 3rd generation immigrants apart? MG: Well, as far as 3rd generations go I did not have to embrace my history or my past, but I did. A lot of people just let it go and become Americans, and that is what our grandparents wanted really. They never really talked about the old country that much. They wanted us to be Americans, but there are so many people I know who are 3rd generation and they have no relation to their past, although it is up to each person. CM: I guess I may be able to relate as a 3rd generation and I don't know if this relates to your experience, but My dad's father was born in Greece and he would always say "Don't play soccer, play baseball because that is what the Americans play!" And then as my generation rolled along we want to know more about where we came from. I don't know if that kind of sounds kind of similar to you. MG: Yeah although I never really let it go. I was always into it, but I don't speak Ukrainian fluently, I know words and phrases. It is like that for so many people now, people are trying to find out more about their roots with places like Ancestry.com. For instance, the church of Latter-Day Saints has a big collection of genealogical resources. For instance, if I had gone to them before going out on my own trying to find family history I would have saved a lot of money. CM: I guess going off that, you said you speak some basic Ukrainian. I know we have Greek school, in this church is there a Ukrainian school? MG: There used to be in the 50's and 60's. There hasn't been one for quite a long time. CM: Do the kids speak Ukrainian? MG: Sometimes, it depends on their parents and whether or not they speak it at home. There are a lot of people in this church who don't speak it and some that do. I wish we could recruit new generation Ukrainians here. For instance, there is a Pentecostal Ukrainian church over in Conklin in Berkshire. They actually have been getting VISA's because they say they don't have religious freedom in the Ukraine and that has been their entry point into the United States. CM: This community is based on an older generation of immigrants than some of the other southern tier communities? MG: Yeah, the wave of immigration from this church and this area basically in the early 1900's or the first 40 years of the 1900's. RB: Now do you know why most people decided to live here in the southern tier of New York? MG: Well wherever they have relatives or sponsors. I know that whenever the 1st generation peoples came here they looked at the hills and the weather here and they were just like "god this is just like home." (Laughter) It isn't very different here and there. I went to Sanok and it felt just like Berkshire, NY. The houses and the utilities are a little different obviously, but it basically looks the same. It depends where you have family, there are other Ukrainian churches in Florida and southern California. RB: Just a little bit more about yourself, do you currently work? MG: No, I am retired, I have a seasonal NY state job with the gaming commission. And I work 61 days a year at (Job). RB: Could you tell us what your wife does? MG: My wife is a sales associate at the men's clothing department in Macy's. She has been there for 14 years. RB: What lessons has your work life taught you and your wife? MG: To be honest, to be hardworking, I always intended to get their 15 minutes early. I liked getting to work and having time to prepare and not just jump right into things like wham! I like getting there like 20 minutes early, having a cup of coffee, and then when it's 8 or 8:30 get into it. I have seen so many situations where people got in at 8:30 and start working at 10 after 9 (laughter). So, for my wife she is conscientious and very hard-working. She is probably the most hard-working person I have ever met. This woman works even when she is on the telephone she will be cleaning the house. She'll be doing yard work after the sun goes down and I'll tell her to come on in you know it's dark out there (laughter), you've done enough today. They are just really really driven. RB: Do you believe that is because of the culture she was brought up in the Ukraine? MG: Yeah, you know kind of strict and hard-working. I know her father worked in a factory and he never missed a day, they are all pretty hard-working. RB: Do you know what family was like for her and for yourself? MG: As I said I have been to her village and her city a couple of times. It is a beautiful city, she is in a village just outside the city along the Prut River. Prut means swift in Ukrainian. I have seen her schools and where she went to school, the schools are fairly nice. It's kind of idyllic area, I swear to god it's like a fast-moving river, I mean you can still go into it and swim in it. There are also evergreen hillsides rising up and it is like you are in Deposit, NY. She had a fairly good life there. And I had a good life here. My parents bought land along the Susquehanna River. So, you know I didn't have a Huck Finn life (chuckles) but I had boats all my life. I still have land on the river and a house, but we were flooded twice and now we live in Endwell on a hill (laughter). CM: You said the schools were pretty good where your wife came from. If I remember correctly, while the Soviet Union had a lot of hardships, it always had a good education program. MG: Yeah, she went to a university. She went to Kiev University, she got a business degree. You know it is kind of difficult for people from other countries. They come over here and they are highly educated, and it is difficult translating that education experience into the mainstream of this country. I've known doctors, chemists that have come over here and are driving taxi cabs. They never achieve success they would have achieved if they were born here. Because their language is not that precise, and I know I couldn't do what my wife did. My wife came here and had to learn a new alphabet, a new language, new customs, how to do things like an American, so it's very difficult. CM: So, your wife didn't speak any English when she came over? MG: No, she went to class for English as a second language. CM: ESL? MG: Yeah. I also help her everyday with her language and she doesn't teach me any Ukrainian (laughter). RB: That's a good segway into the next question. Do you know how well she assimilated to the United States? MG: She is very assimilated, although she hurts easily. Working in merchandising you meet all kinds of people, nice people, people of different backgrounds. And she talks to customers who can't understand her, and she feels offended or hurt. But she has acclimated pretty well. RB: Could you tell us about your grandparents when they came here? MG: My grandfather's name was Mike Gulachok, although it was probably Mykhailo, but it got changed in Ellis Island. I don't know if it is in there (referring to the binder on his family) but there is a boat manifest and a lot of information in there depending on what they put in. I think that DeDe (grandfather in Ukrainian) I think he started in a coal mine down in Scranton and then moved here for a shoe factory and then he opened up the restaurant. They learned English pretty well, they learned to read, write and speak English well. They had a good life and they loved their family. They had 4 children and they are buried up here. RB: What were some things your grandparents taught your parents and your parents taught you in terms of values? MG: (laughter as he is pointing to the picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis Restaurant) CM: Just for the interview we are looking at a picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis restaurant. That was the family business. MG: This is Baba's (grandma in Ukrainian) birthday party, and I think this is around 1956 and this is me (points to himself as a kid) and this is my mother, and all these are family and friends. That was in the Binghamton Press. You know the cover of SGT. Peppers (Beatles album)? CM: Yes. RB: Yes. MG: Well this is the family SGT. Peppers (laughter). CM: You have a very large extended family for sure. MG: Now do you want to ask me on how I met my wife? RB: Absolutely! MG: Oh, because this is a crazy story. May 15 years ago, I was spending a long weekend in NYC, and I'm staying in a hotel up in the theatre district. I decided to go down to the East Village to see what's happening down there, so I took a bus down Second Avenue and I got off at 7th street. The street was closed off because there was a Ukrainian festival and that is where I met here. RB: Oh wow. MG: I gave her my phone and address and she wrote to me and I wrote back and yeah that's how we met. RB: That is amazing. MG: Doesn't that make you believe in fate? I mean if I wasn't in NYC or decided to take the bus I would have never met her. CM: Yeah, a lot had to happen for that, for sure. I wrote down here that you mentioned in your family history that your family worked in the coal mines and moved to the shoe factories. From what Stephan and the Father told us it seems like your story and the Parish story are very similar. MG: Oh yeah, very similar. You know some people became engineers, some became doctors, some were bartenders, some were restaurant owners, some farmers. Not everyone is a doctor or lawyer, some people have to cook the bread or stir the paint. CM: It seems though that now when you compare it to the 1920's that the Parish seems to be a lot better off now the quality of life seems much better. MG: Yeah around the 60's and 70's this area was quite booming. I mean it's been in decline but there were a lot of opportunities here. One-time IBM had employed 16,000 people, but now they employ like 2,000. There were a lot of opportunities here, the value of opportunity. RB: what was your daily life like when you first met Natalia? She is a first-generation immigrant, so she still has to get used to the country and everything-- MG: Well that was interesting, she was living in Brooklyn and I was living in the country outside of Owego on the river. I proposed, and we got married in New York City at the marriage bureau in Manhattan, had many of her friends from Brooklyn for the reception and got a U-Haul [for her belongings]. Then I brought her up here. She grew up in the country-- RB: [the Southern Tier was] as close to home as possible MG: She went from living in NYC to living in the sticks up here. She liked it here, she learned how to drive a car, etc. and I've unsuccessfully tried to talk her into moving back to Brooklyn. CM: I imagine in Brooklyn that she lived in an ethnic Ukrainian community? MG: Actually not, she lived in Sunset Park, which was mainly an orthodox Jewish neighborhood. It really had all kinds of people there. There was this one commercial center close to where she lived, and I remember that there was a Chechen night club near it, and we'd walk by and the owners would say "come on in! Come on in!" But we'd say no thanks. There were really all kinds of people there. CM: I imagine that she had to assimilate pretty quickly, and assume that she spoke some English by the time you guys met? MG: Oh yeah, she had been taking some ESL courses, and while I writing to her, she would share [our correspondence] with her uncle, who told her “This is what you need, you need exposure to the language". While she lived in Brooklyn, all of her friends were Ukrainian, which led to her being pretty insular, and she didn't speak to many people in English other than when she went to a store for instance. When she came up here, she really got immersed. RB: I imagine it'd be easier to do so up here (the southern tier), than in the hectic city. MG: If you don't, talk to anyone in a language, you won't learn it. CM: I agree, my experience has been such that I think you could take 80,000 of those (ESL) classes, but the real way to learn a language is just by being forced to speak it. MG: Yeah, you can even learn English by just watching TV, especially situational comedies. Sometimes I hear things coming out of her mouth, and I think gee whiz, are we on law and order? CM: Going off of that, have you noticed differences in Ukrainian and American mannerisms? Inter personal quirks perhaps? Such as how far away you should stand from the person you're talking to? MG: Yeah, I've noticed that she is superstitious. If you look at pictures from the old country, you'll notice that no one is smiling. RB: I have noticed that. MG: Another example of this is when I go to buy clothes at the Salvation Army, she'll say that we shouldn't buy it since it was certainly owned by dead people, which we all know is not necessarily true or important if it was. She is also afraid of the cellar, I haven't the slightest idea why, and whenever she goes down there to wash something, I always have to check in on her and ask if she is ok. They (Ukrainians) certainly have their ways of acting, behaving and thinking, which we might not be familiar with. RB: One of my Ukrainian friends told me that in his home he isn't permitted to whistle or to leave his keys on the table, is that a superstition that sounds familiar to you? MG: I've never heard that one! [Laughs] CM: If I recall, our friend also mentioned that his family told him not to smile too much, since that would lead to wrinkles in old age, does that sound familiar to you? MG: I haven't heard of that one either. However, I have noticed that Ukrainian culture tends to be less relaxes, far more formal. If you go to someone's house you are expected to kiss all of the women's hands, bring flowers, food, wine, or something. Which I feel is nice. CM: In general, that seems more formal than American culture, how do you feel that large holidays compare for instance? MG: All gatherings certainly had a larger religious aspect to them, as opposed to pagan. Our Christmas and Easter are almost exclusively based on Christianity. As you know, our Christmas and Easter are celebrated at different times than other Christian denominations. CM: Just to clarify for the recording, your church follows the old calendar correct? MG: Correct, we follow the Julian calendar. CM: And Easter coincides with Passover [in Eastern Orthodoxy] MG: Yes, and this year our Easter will fall on May 1st. CM: And do the other local Ukrainian churches in the area follow the same religious calendar? Such as Sacred Heart (A catholic parish) or the Pentecostal church? MG: No, Sacred Heart's calendar is in line with the rest of the catholic calendar, and I'm not really not sure what the Pentecostals do. RB: What made your grandparents chose this church over the others? MG: Well my grandparents were founding members of the church and were very involved in it: one of grandparents even became church board president. It was a very important parcel of their history, their culture. CM: Of course, as in many ethnic Eastern Orthodox denominations, I noticed while I was upstairs that this church has a Ukrainian flag next to the altar, and I feel that we can safely say that this doesn't function merely a place of worship, as opposed to the Catholic Church for instance. It is a national church that embodies the ethnic history and cultural values of the community here. MG: It is, and no matter what variant of orthodoxy one practices, be it Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian, or otherwise, is still the same orthodox faith. I personally feel that it shouldn't be hung on an ethnicity or an ethnic background, because religion is universal. The semi separation arose from linguistic barriers and we should always aim to appeal to and include members of all other nations who wish to pray. I do remember that very recently we had a Binghamton University student who had come from Ethiopia, and he prayed with our community while he was here. I like the idea that you can come here regardless of what your heritage is. CM: I absolutely agree with you. I do feel that this view is more widespread now in 2016 than it would have been historically. MG: I would also imagine that earlier generations wouldn't have felt that way. I feel that people have become more thoughtful, open, and progressive than they were in say the 1930s. CM: It seems that if you had an Ethiopian who felt comfortable here that we could characterize the parish itself as progressive and open one. MG: Yes, we were happy to have him here. RB: Just going back to your relatives, what sort of things did your parents teach you to regard as important? Such as the values they imbued in you? MG: Honesty. Honesty, and hard work. I can't say love of family; don't get me wrong we loved each other, but we didn't really reach out to far. I started to get more involved in the church as of the 1990s and am happy to have seen society as a whole become kinder, and more well informed. RB: Going off of that, as a 3rd generation Ukrainian American and a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, what do you feel best defines being "Ukrainian American", [as a Ukrainian immigrant would see it] and with regards to how you yourself would define it? MG: Pride and love of heritage. My family came from an area of the world that had been persecuted, repressed, and that made heritage all the more important to hold onto-- I consider myself an American first and a Ukrainian American second. I value passing down our culture to the next generation, especially given the hard times that we [Ukrainians] have faced. Ukraine has been in the geopolitical crosshairs for centuries. Ukraine itself means "borderland" in Russian, which is evidence of its struggle through the millennia. That being said, I saw an online map of the changing borders of Europe over time, and we certainly aren't the only people to face such issues. Going forward I want to see the Ukraine succeed, and to be able to provide a better and more prosperous life for the Ukrainian people. You didn't happen to see the frontline documentary about Putin did you? CM: No, but the two of us have managed to keep current as to the basics of the current situation in the Ukrainian [i.e.: Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014], and the country certainly has had a rough few years recently--. CM: We could also ask you this: The Ukraine itself isn't a monolith: Many Ukrainians belong to different religious sects, such as the Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, Judaism, the Pentecostal church, etc. Some Ukrainians speak Ukrainian at home, other Russian, others Slovak, etc. I suppose we could say that there are many potential elements that can come together as part of a Ukrainian identity. MG: All of those elements can vary, at the end of the day it is identifying with your heritage. If you were to google my name (Michael Gulachok) online, you'd find that there aren't any aside from me. I am proud of my name, and moreover my heritage. It feels like I'm one of the last Mohicans in a way, because I am probably the last one. CM: I suppose Gulachok is a rare family name then? MG: Yes. An interesting fact is that the word "Gula" in my last name had its origins in the Catholic Church and related to debauchery [laughter]. CM: My own last name translates to smuggler, so you never know [laughter]. MG: For all we know I had a drunken dancer as the family founder [laughter] RB: Given that you are a 3rd generation Ukrainian, and your wife is 1st generation, what sort of values are emphasized in your household? What do you find most important in the household? MG: Well, when my brother visited us recently he said "You know, this smells like Baba's (Grandma's) house." Meaning the food that we cook, the icons that we have, and our artwork aren't very different from what my parents and grandparents would have had. When you step inside you instantly get the impression that you're in a Ukrainian enclave. I had a beautiful watercolor painting of the church that was ruined in the flood in Owego, and I still have it in the abandoned house. Now it seems sort of impressionistic. CM: I guess it morphed into a Kandinsky [laughter] M; Yeah either that or a Polack. RB: How does your religion shape your Ukrainian identity? MG: It is very much a part of who I am, when I had once physically left the church, I hadn't spiritually done so. The sermons here, and the liturgy are nowadays roughly one-half Ukrainian, and one-half English. It is a very integral part of who I am and who we are. CM: In my own experience, it seems like an uncle of mine who wasn't too religious, but the church was always a part of the Greek identity. I feel as though the same applies in this community, and I feel in every sect of Eastern Orthodoxy, that the church life is integral in shaping the ethnic identity. MG: Yes, I would agree. RB: Would you say that you are more American, or more Ukrainian? MG: I am more of an American, while my wife is more of a Ukrainian. CM: Your wife of course lived there, and you mentioned that you've revisited Eastern Europe a few times. MG: yes, I have been to Poland three times, Ukraine twice, Slovakia once, Russia once. CM: Over the course of your visits, did you notice any change over time. MG: Yes, especially in Poland, which is doing very well. Ukrainians look over the border at Poland and think "wow, the Poles are doing so well, if only we could do that". That and Ukraine is still struggling under the thumb of Russia, the people just want a better life for themselves and their children. Poland is truly doing very well. The first time I flew into Warsaw, which is actually pronounced "Var-SHAH-va", the airport was very substandard, it was a dreary and dilapidated cinderblock building, and then just a few years later in the early 90s, the airport and the city itself had rapidly transformed. CM: Just to clarify, when did you make your first visit? MG: I first visited Russia and the Ukraine in 1992. CM: So, the USSR had just fell. MG: Correct, and the people were very excited for the future, Ukraine was free. CM: So the general feeling wasn't a more apprehensive "what do we do now?" It was more of a "finally! We can't wait, Thank God! This is the best thing that could've happened! MG: I never like to travel in a tourist bubble, when I went to Russia and the Ukraine for the first time I traveled with a peace group, so it wasn't a sightseeing itinerary-based trip, we were able to really immerse ourselves and met a lot of people. We travelled extensively, by train, taxi, boat, plane, horse. People were excited, they didn't know what would come next but they were excited and hopeful. RB: I recall you saying you and your wife travelled together to your wife's village. Did she ever say how it has changed if it has at all? MG: There is definitely more building going on, newer/ more modern homes have popped up. Keep in mind these are single family houses, I'm not talking about multi story towers. The town looks like the old country aside from some new housing. The school especially looks very modern. CM: You said that during the interlude between your visits, the area had changed quite a lot. Perhaps you could touch on the change in culture, and access to the outside world? MG: They want to become more like the west, and it is not as closed as it used to be in Soviet days. The people now know about what is going on in the world. RB: Do you feel that the Ukraine is becoming more Americanized. MG: I would say maybe more Europeanized. After all Europe is right next door. RB: Going back to the home, what sort of traditions do you retain from the old country in the home? What sort of things, such as Ukrainian Orthodox history matter a lot in your home? MG: Well it goes back to the holidays; Stephan could probably articulate this better than I. But we try and keep our holidays in line with our Ukrainian Orthodox traditions, and our house. RB: If I recall you speak some Ukrainian? MG: yes "У вас є сестра?" (Do you have a sister?) [Laughter] "принести мені пиво" (Bring me a beer) [laughter] C; All of the practical terms I suppose MG: Of course, "Вибачте, де туалет?" (Excuse me, where is the toilet?) CM: Yeah that'd definitely be good to know [laughter] RB: Do you and your wife speak Ukrainian at home? MG: Well she does when she swears at me [laughter] she swears in Ukrainian. We have Skype, and she'll speak Ukrainian on Skype with her friends from Brooklyn and New Jersey who don't speak much English. She does have Skype connections with some people back in the Ukraine, but unfortunately none of her relatives live close to someone with access to Skype. So she isn't able to look at and speak with them. But it is definitely nice that she can keep in touch with some people in New York and the Ukraine with it. CM: Would that be because her friends are from a developed urban center like Kiev, or Odessa, etc. MG: Yes, those people are certainly more prosperous, and have greater access to the globe. CM: So it seems that there is a much greater disparity between urban and rural Ukraine than urban and rural America. MG: Oh yeah, the cities have become very cosmopolitan and cultured, there is also certainly more economic activity going on in the cities. It is amazing to see horses and wagons. CM: So you still see that to this day? MG: Oh yeah, there are a lot of cars, but yes. The first time I went to Poland I was amazed by the sheer number of farmers using horses and wagons. After ten years had passed there were substantially fewer. RB: Even within ten years a country can certainly change a lot, and I believe we have just about exhausted our time. CM: Yes, right now though if there is anything you would like to add, or something you feel we didn't cover please add it in. MG: As is I'll probably think of it as I walk out the door. [Laughter] RB: Thank you very much for sharing the stories of you and your wife. CM: Thank you very much, we enjoyed it a lot. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gulachok Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gulachok, Michael ; Markotsis, Constantine ; Brown, Russell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michael is a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-12 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Michael Gulachok.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/79d496f0c5af508d2d1c28c99eb611da.m4a 09ec821dc466fa4700bc20f49a171e35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Logan Bretz and Heaven Germann Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis A. Kalashnik Biographical Text Dennis A. Kalashnik is a Russian-Ukrainian Immigrant and business owner. He was born in Krasnodar Krai, Russia and came to the States in 1991 when he was four years old. Both of his parents are Ukrainian. He is currently married and resides in Endwell. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:20 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-13 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kalashnik, Dennis A. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia -- History; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DennisKalashnik.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Russians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Russian-Ukrainian Baptist Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Dennis A. Kalashnik Interviewed by: Logan Bretz and Heaven Germann Transcriber: Logan Bretz and Heaven Germann Date of interview: 13 April 2016 at 3:00 PM Interview Setting: Starbucks, 904 W Front Street, Binghamton, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Logan Bretz: [Music playing in background throughout the interview] Hello Dennis, my name is Logan and this is Heaven. We are going to ask you some questions today. First, we would like you to introduce yourself. What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do for a living and what do you like to do for fun? Dennis Kalashnik: My name is Dennis Kalashnik. I live in Endwell. Here. Locally. Uhm. I ah came here to the States in 91 from Russia but I am Ukrainian. My parents are both Ukrainian. Uhm. I like to fix cars. Eat out. Pretty much. That's about it. LB: You said eat out-- DK: Make money [Laughter from all]. LB: Make money! Where is your favorite place to eat? DK: Uh, probably the Japanese Hibachi places. Either Fuji San, Fushimi or Kampai. One of those. LB and Heaven Germann: Ah okay. LB: Okay. So, where were you born? DK: I was born in what is now Russia. It was Soviet Union back then. Uhm. It's Russia, Krasnodar Krai, which is Southern Russia, near the Caucasus. Yeah, it's a little warmer than here. LB: Do you remember anything from growing up? DK: Yeah. A few moments uh because I was about four and a half when I moved here. So I remember some like highlights I guess, like you know, events, birthdays, stuff like that you know? Cute little scenes from my childhood. LB: Would you like to share any? DK: Uh, well I remember I had ah my appendix removed when I was little. So I remember that. I was like almost three years old. I remember having the surgery, going under and I remember, you know, family meeting us and getting gifts and stuff like that. And I remember ah, in ah where we grew up, we had a lot of people immigrate to the states so it was kind of like a tradition to go to the railroad station and you know, wave people off. And like. HG: That's really cool. LB: Yeah, that's really neat. DK: Yeah. So people would take the train to the nearest bigger city and then take the airport from there to Moscow and then fly out of there to JFK. LB: That's so neat. DK: Yeah. LB: Uhm. So what are your parents like? DK: My parents? LB: Yeah. DK: Ah, my dad is, ah, well he came here. He was 27 and my mom was about 24 years old so they were relatively young. Uhm. Really hardworking. I think they have a strong work ethic. I think that's probably what they taught me the most. Uh, my dad and mom are from ah, well we all go to the Baptist Church here so kind of the main reason why we moved here was because they used to have religious persecution during the Soviet Union so once the uhm, you know, the iron wall was removed, they were able to immigrate and they took advantage of that. ASAP, I guess. LB: Do you remember anything about your grandparents? DK: Uhm, well when I moved away, both of my parents’ side of their mothers passed away when they were younger. My dad was like twenty years old when his mom passed away, so his dad remarried and uhm my mom's mother passed when she was four years old. So I only got to meet my grandfather's. They came here to the states to visit us when we already lived here and I visited them as well, a few times when they lived there, so. It wasn't really a close relationship because they lived so far away. LB: Okay. Uhm. Which family member would you say influenced you the most? DK: Uh, hard to pick one. They're really. We are actually from a really tight knit family where family is like means a lot in our family, so. Uhm. I think they're, both parents were actively involved in our upbringing and you know, so I wouldn't be able to pick one I guess [He chuckles]. LB: And also, what part of Ukraine did you or your family come from, [correcting pronunciation] come from and who do they most identify with? DK: Uh well, my, both of my, my parents' side are uh from like suburbs of Kiev. So, kind of like this from Cherkassy. Which is uh, I don't know, maybe 100 kilometers South of Kiev which is the capital of the Ukraine now. Uhm, and by identify. What do you mean, like? LB: With Ukraine or Russia? DK: I think I would identify more with Russia. I think I'm more sympathetic toward Russia because uhm, I don't really speak Ukrainian. I only speak Russian. During the Soviet Union, everybody spoke Russian there, so only, like during, in small villages people spoke Ukrainian. All the central towns and cities is more Russian. HG: And that was one of our uhm other question was what language did you primary, primarily speak when you were growing up? DK: Russian. Yeah. So kind of more like eastern Ukraine. You know, like everybody there speaks Russian pretty much. Although, I got married. Now, my wife is from Western Ukraine and she learned Russian actually in the states, here. When she moved here, she did not speak Russian at all. HG: Oh, that's really cool. DK: So, I uh remember she said like when she was growing up she would have some visitors come from Russia and they were like looking at them like they were you know, totally aliens or something. They would make of their language because it was so odd for them. LB: Was your family originally from Kuban? DK: Uh, yeah. LB: And when did your parents migrate? DK: When? LB: Yes. DK: Uh, ninety, ninety-one. LB: Ninety-one? DK: Ninety-one. Yeah. It was October sixteenth or something like that. Ninety-one. LB: Did they, did they migrate back to Ukraine and then come back? DK: Uh, well, my dad got married and my mom already lived in uh, Kuban so they got, my dad got married for like a year together in Ukraine and then there's just better opportunity for them and in the Russian area so they moved there. LB: And what did your parents do? DK: Back there? LB: Yes. DK: My dad was a shoe smith. Back there. He owned his own uh, store. He'd make custom made like stilettos and stuff like that that he would specialize in, women's shoes. High heels and that sort of thing. He had his own little gig doing that. Uhm, he went to school for that then started his own business. It was really hard having your own business back over there because you had to pay off a lot of bribes and try to order supplies and stuffs to run your business. It's not like here you can just go and call any warehouse or what not and get what you need. There you have to like pay somebody off to get, you know, supplies for your business, taxes, and all that stuffs. It's hard to run your own business. LB: That's really interesting. I did not know that. Uhm. Do you remember any stories they told you about when they came to America and when you moved to America? DK: Uhm, well. That's, I would say is pretty fresh in my mind too, when we moved here. It was kind of just, everything was so new. You know, you were really, really like aware of what was going on. Uhm so, I mean I remember just from landing here in Binghamton uh, you know, all of our relatives were greeting us that were already here in the states before we were. Uhm, back then it was the only way to get into the states; was the immigration was first open up to Jews. So like our cousins, they had to prove that they had some kind of Jewish roots and they were able to immigrate through Italy and then come here. And we were the first, I think one of the first ones that were able to immigrate directly from, you know, Russia to these to the states without going through some kind of middle country or uhm. So I remember them meeting us here. I remember going to Chuck E. Cheese and stuff. That was like a celebration. That was fun. That was like totally different. You know, jumping in the, you know, big arcades there, and they have the balls of the, with the, all that stuff, that was, that was cool. LB: Uhm, do you have any classic family stories, jokes or songs? DK: Uhm. Well like I said, we are from a Christian family so we have a lot of us when we get together a lot of our uh I guess uh conversation and we would sing a lot of Christians songs, you know and a lot of Russian food. And uhm, so. The games we played as kids growing up here would be mostly like you know, American games, freeze tag and uh, you know, uh stuff like that. Soccer, basketball, even though that was more like we were kind of I'd say we were more like intertwined with American culture pretty quick. Because you go to school, public school and nobody wants to stick out, so [He laughs]. HG: Yeah, and that was uhm, going into that, can you tell us like your school experience here? DK: Uh, well, when I moved here I was four and a half so like within half a year I went to kindergarten. Basically the next following school year in September, I was started kindergarten. At that point I wouldn't, I wouldn't say like I had that much exposure to the American society here until I went to school. And I had I think a hard time at first uh because I had like, you come to school, you don't understand anything. Like what everybody is asking you. I mean like you know, you want to go to the bathroom, you can't explain yourself, you know you want to eat you can't explain yourself. You just hope they can figure out your sign language, I guess you know or you just get frustrated. My, my first, uhm first day of going to school. I was so excited to go and then I remember I came to school and I guess I didn't have the proper vaccination or something like that and they called me out on the speaker, pulled me out of gym class in front of the whole school like made me seem like I was like some kind of you know diseased kid or something like that. They put me in a taxi and sent me home. So, from that day on I hated school. They ruined it for me [He laughs]. L & HG: Awe! DK: First day in. So. Uhm, I mean I just kind of did what I needed to do to get by and. I remember I got lucky actually. There was one girl in my class who was Ukrainian and she was there I think a year before we were and she knew some English. So she would like kind of translate and because of her, I was able to pick it up a lot quicker. LB: That's nice. Did you have any memorable teachers? DK: Uhm, yeah. I remember there was some uh when I moved to Vestal. I went to vestal from second grade until I graduated. Uhm, I remember uh Mrs. Smith, Ms. Smith. Uh, she was really nice like when I just moved there, she was like, just welcomed me very well into that class that I was in. I remember making her project and stuff like that, and you know, dedicating it to her and then, what's funny is I moved to Endwell after I got married and she's my neighbor now. So [He laughs]. DK: So I got talking to her. I'm like oh she has a familiar name. So, we're actually next-door neighbors now so. Yeah, she was the nicest teachers that I had when I was growing up so, that was cool. LB: What is one of your favorite memories from your early schooling? DK: Well, like I said, that one getting kicked out of school. -- I don't know. My family, let's say like some families are very oriented toward education and they push their kids to you know; get a degree and what not. Our family wasn't really like that. They were more about I guess working hard and -- just being decent humans. You know, they would instill good morals in us. We were very --involved in church. -- That was -- that, I think that's the most centric thing in our family, is religion. I think. -- And if like school work or school activities took time away from that, that was supposed to be, I guess placed on, you know, a second priority. So we weren't really involved in too much -- after school activities or anything like that. Did our work. Did what was asked of us and went home. Helped out around the house. -- Went to church. I had a lot of friends around the church and, a lot of kids there, so. LB: What were your friends like? DK: -- There's all of us are pretty similar. Like to play American sports--. Like to, I personally like to fix cars. They all had hobbies around cars, being boys and all. -- Just very active. Just normal childhood. LB: And going back to your school experience, did being Russian/Ukrainian affect the way you were treated? DK: -- I don't, I don't know if it was. Well, we try to stick with our own I guess. When we went to school, at least because we're not even. Although I'd say we are kind of first generation American, but I mean we aren't really. Because--Just being like, kind of growing up in a really big like Slavic bubble protected us I think from too much American influence at once. So when we went to school we would have friends that were you know were just like us that knew our culture. We kind of hung out together so that kind of made us I think stick out a little bit at school so. Kind of, they protected our back you know in school fights and stuff. And nobody really messed with you because you had a group of loyal friends and stuff like that. So that was kind of neat in a way but I also think it's kind of not really good because you didn't really intertwine too much too. HG: Going back to what you said earlier how there was the one girl in your class that was Ukrainian. Did you remain friends with her? DK: --We kind of, lost track after I moved to Vestal, when we were little. But, I mean now, like, growing up I still see her around town here and there. I think she got remarried, got married to a Bosnian guy. So, I see her and I recognize her face but I just say hi or whatever. But not really close friends, yeah. HG: So, you said earlier that religion was very important to your family. Do you mind if we talk about your religious aspects now? DK: Mhm. Sure. HG: So what is your overall religious background? DK: -- Christian protestant which is -- a church that separated from the Orthodoxy churches. -- That being -- kind of based on Martin Luther's theses and stuff that he posted and all so basically that you're saved by faith. And it's not like an Orthodox church is when you're small you get christened into the faith and you're kind of a nominal Christian. Here, you grow up and you have to choose it at your own time. So, when you accept Christ, you get baptized in the church and then. You live, you know, based on your faith and not feel like, because of your parents were Christian and what not. So, that's kind of the basis of it, so. HG: -- Would you say that your religious beliefs have changed or adapted in any way to like American society or is it still? DK: No -- I would say they're probably the same as when people like used to live in the Soviet Union. Probably the same style church here. Hasn't changed much. All the values are the same, all the traditions are, I would say that pretty much all of the traditions back from Russia or Ukraine. Just, when I go back there to visit, I go to the churches there, it's, it's the same thing. HG: So, how many times have you gone back to like Russia since being here? DK: -- Five times maybe? Five times? Our mom would send us back there -- for the summer. So, we'd go there and visit our relatives. Hang out there in the summertime and that would help us preserve the language, the culture, traditions. HG: That's really cool. DK: For our parents, that was important for us to remember the language and so they tried and made an effort for us to go there and -- my mom taught me I think, how to read and write here. When we were at home, she would just take the -- alphabet book and I mean taught us how to read and practice our writing. We also have like a Russian school which is within our church -- on Saturdays. They have -- classes. They get all the kids together and they teach them how to read and write in Russian. So that helps too. LB: So when you would go back to Russia, is it, did it change over the years? DK: -- Well, it's more westernized. You know. During, when we just left -- the Soviet Union fell so there's a lot of poverty there and a lot of -- corruption stuff like that. And ever since the president there changed, it's kind of been normalized and things gotten, there's a lot more order there. Well, you see a lot of the style of shopping for instance, they used to be markets and stuff and now they have malls like we do here too. So, they got rid of all that stuff. And, so you go to the mall, there's ice skating rinks in the mall, there's carousels in the mall they have McDonald's they have, you know Asian restaurants, they have American food, you know. So it's very similar, you know. The transportation system is the same. Cars are the same. They import everything. So it's just like a normal place. The only thing different is you come there and everybody speaks Russian. That kind of startles you. First of all you're like oh that's weird! Everybody understands what you're saying and stuff like that so it's kind of. You get this homey feeling too when you go there. So, that's cool. HG: Do you have like any, like favorite memories from going back to Russia when you would visit your family or just being there? DK: -- Well, when we went there like the last time I went there was in 2009. I got married in 2010 so then it was harder to go and travel because it's more money now and you got bills to pay. HG: Yeah. DK: But in 2009 when I went, --, my mom's side is, --, the relatives that all live there and they're very hospitable so when we go there they make an effort to, you know, treat us to, you know, all kinds of places and take us to the, uh, Black Sea there for instance. We got to go to Sochi where the Olympics were, um, all the resorts there. And one of my uncles made uh like uh a euro trip sort of thing for us. He paid some guy to uh take a van and just take us down to the sea, he took us to Moscow, took us to Saint Petersburg. We got a lot of tourism done. And he kind of made it possible for us to experience the culture there so that was really neat and interesting. We weren't just stuck sitting at our grandma's house or something like that you know, something boring. We actually got to see the country so that was fun. LB: Mhm. Back there do they follow different traditions than you do here? DK: -- like it's just a different way of life. The people are different a little bit. -- Here, everybody smiles I would say, and but you leave maybe behind your back they would say something different. There they just say it straight up to your face if they don't like something. People are more blunt and I think up front; less political correctness there -- kind of like Donald Trump. [Laughter] So we can relate to him I guess. You'll go to a store, you know, if you want to touch something and just look at it they'll flip out on you. Why are you touching it? Are you going to buy it or--? That's one thing is like, customer service is like nonexistent there. They just don't want to waste their-- You know they see if you're wasting their time. Their actually, if you have money, they can tell by the way you're dressed or what not and they'll-- They, they judge you right automatically if they can make money off you or not or you're just going to waste their time and beat around the bush. They'll just tell you, you know, don't-- get along. LB: Going back to, going back to religion, can you describe a holiday mass at your church? DK: -- well, we have-- like I said, our-- our-- origins are from an orthodox background so there's some influence from orthodox churches. Like some of their traditions, for instance, we just celebrated Easter-- the Orthodox Church gets up really early and they go to-- go to church. -- celebrate their holiday-- like we still have that tradition too. Like we'll get up really early in the morning, and we have service at 6 am. You know, we get up with sunrise and go-- our typical service there would've been like-- like we have bands playing. We have a lot of kids programs and stuff. They learn a lot of verses for the holidays. They dress up-- everybody dresses up special. And -- so we even have like food afterwards, so. LB: What kind of food would you have? DK: -- well you get halupki which everybody knows that. So you get that. A lot of mashed potato -- different salads. So-- barbecue going on. Shashlik, which is like a chicken spiedie sort of thing. So a little grilling going on. HG: That sounds good. LB: As you were growing up, was the food different? DK: --, like right now I prefer more American food. Like when I go out-- I like to go out because at home I would eat Russian food and stuff like that and I kind of like American food more, because it's just variety. For me it just feels like if I want to go out somewhere I don't want to pay for something that I could eat at home. Although our food is good, I just want something different. LB: What kind of food would you eat that you didn't like as much as American food? DK: -- I like-- well I like steak and stuff like that like they have-- they cook meat on like barbs but it's not like steak. They do like pork and they'll chop that up and put it like on spiedie sort of thing which is good too -- and I like-- I like burgers too [Laughs]. DK: I like American classic cheeseburgers. Sometimes you want that and you can't get that at home. I mean you could cook it but I'm lazy to do that so. HG: You said growing up how your family would keep like the-- some of the traditional Russian like dishes and stuff. What were some that you remember like growing up? DK: -- We get a lot of canned-- canned vegetables and stuff during the fall. My mom would do a lot of canning like jam, and -- she really likes that. Mushrooms. I really like mushrooms and mashed potatoes and I like-- smoked fish, so. That's kind of-- like if I was to eat at home that's what I'd prefer. And then there's crepes too. You know, your Russian version of crepes with strawberries and put Nutella on it too and what not, so. HG: -- So going back to uh, religion and your church, are you like involved in like any of your church activities? DK: Yeah. HG: Because you were telling us about the Russian stuff on Saturday. DK: Yeah I'm actually a youth leader in our church so I get all the younger kids together and we organize camps. --We organize a lot of trips, like this weekend we are going to go visit another Russian church in Wilkes-Barre. So we do a lot of communication between our Russian network that exists here in the states. So I helped organize that. -- I'm also involved with the choir so I help conduct music. We learn choir music and um I preach in church too. So we have-- in our church we have a tradition where we have like 3 preachers so everybody gets a chance, in our church all the like-- all the men, young and old, so I'm involved in that. And I help out with cleaning and all that stuff in church too when need be. I cut the grass around the building if need be. I plow the snow because I lived the closest [Laughter]. DK: And everybody wants to borrow the key from me because I have it and people forget the key to the church they'll knock on my house to bail them out [Laughter]. HG: So um, is there any like maybe Ukrainian aspects you kind of hold on to or is it just more like Russian? DK: Uh well, you know, Russia and Ukraine are considered two brotherly countries, so. What I mean with that is, all the culture is so intertwined, uh, I really don't even know a difference personally, besides the language. It's just like a different dialect kind of like we have here in the states; southern and northern dialect. It's similar; theirs. All the culture is the same. The food is the same. Maybe they'll have a specialty dish that you know we don't have or something like that or vice versa but everything is-- I really personally do not see a difference. HG: Um, also when you travel, you said you've gone to Russia, have you ever gone back to like your hometown to visit there? DK: Yeah where we moved from all our, my relatives still actually live in that town -- so I got to, when I go to visit--. A few times, I went to see our house there where we used to live. Like, my dad built that house so it was kind of neat to go on that street and you know remember, a few memories come back. I mean you remember playing in the yard, because it has changed since we were. It was a new house when we built it and so the neighborhood was kind of vacant. It was just all new building lots -- now it's all developed. So it's changed a little bit over the times and it's interesting to see where you lived and walk around the streets, familiar places. HG: Yeah, I would agree that would be kind of cool just to go back and like-- DK: Yeah. HG: Look at everything and just see it now. HG: We are at a half an hour. DK: Yeah. HG: Help! HG: Okay, so which relatives or so would you have left like in Kuban, Ukraine, or Russia? DK: Uh like, well all my dad's side is from, while they lived in Ukraine. Umm my dad and one of his brother's moved to Russia. So all his side moved to the states, immigrated here in the 90s. My mom's side, she has two sisters that moved here and one brother. So she has another four brothers with big families there that refused to move here. So they're uhh nationalists, so they didn't want to come here. They consider us traitors for leaving. So, but just like in a friendly way. They're still very nice to us and all that, but they refuse to leave cause. Umm in Ukraine it was a lot harder, so anybody who lived there they tried to get out of there. Umm like Russia, had a little bit easier I think. They had a little bit more job opportunities, so a lot of the people were fine off there. Especially, after the 90s when umm Vladimir Putin became the President in the early 2000s. People the economy did better, umm granted they have more resources to thrive off of. But that did help develop the country, like economically and people just had more opportunity there and they were fine off there. Basically, if you have your own house there that's paid for you're all set, you know. And there's not as much taxes as you have here. Income taxes is like non-existent almost, real estate taxes are almost non-existent. The only thing you may have to pay is car insurance and that's kind of a new thing too. So if you have your home there you're all set pretty much. You don't have to worry about it. All you have to do is to make some money to put food on the table, its close. It's relatively doable. LB: So when you would go back and visit Russia. Where was one of your favorite places? DK: Well uhh, the town that I lived in is Kurganinsk, which is maybe like a 60,000-population town, so it's not that big, maybe like Endwell, here in New York. Umm so there's not much to do there except see your family. A week of that was good for me, then I'd try and split from there and go you know to the resort area or the beach. Places that were more busting and. Uhh so I think that Sochi was probably my favorite time spent. That was the best place to go. You can go skiing there and umm uhh go the beach. Like in the summertime you can go up to the mountains. 30, 40-minute drive from the beach and you got snow on the tops and then you go down it's just like 90 degrees' weather next to the beach, which is just kind of a cool place to see. And very beautiful. You got the mountainous area with like a bay and stuff like that. It's a fun place to go visit. You've got a lot of restaurants and you know beach life there. LB: Have you been back with your parents? DK: Uhh I went with my mom and dad, the first time, which was for a funeral for my grandfather and the second time I went with my mom. She really wanted to go and see her family. And the other times we left everybody at home and just went with my brother, because it was funnier that way. LB: When you would go with your parents would they reminisce with you? DK: Uhh. Not really. Everybody is. It's fun when you are visiting there but when you have something to compare like I mean I could live there if I had to, if I was forced to. I would be able to survive there, like I would probably have it easier than my parents, when they immigrated here because umm I know the language, which at least I can you know communicate with the locals there. Here they had to start from scratch, so I got that heads up if I had to live there. Umm but just the way of life here in America, everything is just more tuned in, for I think the way people live here is more comfortable. Just simple like shopping, like you go online and you can buy anything you want and they'll just like deliver it to your house. There if you want something specific you just got to scratch your head at where to get it. Like they have generic things but umm there's just so much shipping. Easier, the infrastructure here is uhh just more developed then there. They're a little behind in that. Like here you got UPS that'll come to your house you know, just drop it off. There you got to like wait for shipping forever and it's just easier I think here. LB: Interesting. HG: You said some more of your family also came over to America? DK: Yeah. HG: Did you stay in touch with them? DK: Yeah. HG: And have you visited them all around? DK: Everybody moved here first, initially to Binghamton. So uhh, my dad's brothers, my mom's sisters that were here before us. They lived here too and umm half of them moved away. Down South or to the bigger cities like Philadelphia, Charlotte, North Carolina, California. Umm I still have a few families that live here. We have a lot of cousins and stuff. I still have a lot of family that I keep in touch with. And my mom always made an effort for us to visit at least once a year all our relatives so we would keep in touch still. HG: Do you remember having any like big family gatherings while you were here? DK: Yeah. Well we have the Thanksgiving, like not that it's a Russian holiday or anything like that. It's just an opportunity to get together. Everybody has got those days off so, we took advantage of that, to meet up at one of our cousins' houses or our house. That was also crazy times, because you have so much people. Everybody has a big family and the houses aren't that big, so it was really crowded but it's fun. So we did that. And I think we occasionally get together with all the ones, all the relatives that still live here. Umm sometimes after church, for a BBQ or something like that. So we're kind of close, still intertwined and because we go to the same church too. I think that helps. We see each other all the time and I think every relative's family has you know somebody your age. So you got cousins your age and somebody to be friends with and you know it's when you get together, there's not a dull moment. LB: Mhmm. Who do you get along most with in your family? DK: Uhh. My immediate family? Well I have three brothers and I have no sisters. And all of us are like two-three years apart. I'm the oldest. I'm twenty-eight and my youngest brother is twenty-one. Uhh I work together with all my brothers right now so I get my social fill at work with them. I'll see them on the weekends too sometimes, when I go to my parents' house. So I'm very close with my brothers. LB: Within your family were there heirlooms passed down? DK: Uhh. No. Not really. Like when we moved away from there. We just kind of like traveling to the unknown sort of to America. Cause nobody's really been. We had one of our cousins, came here first. They were telling us how it was here. Don't bring anything with you. You don't need anything. They'll give you everything here you know. You got welfare, what-not. T' help you out the first time. So we sold everything we had. We left there. We just grabbed our clothes literally and we came here. So we didn't really bring anything. Just pictures from the old country, relatives and stuff. That's it. Nothing with real sentimental value, anything like that. LB: No. Do you remember what your house looked like? DK: Uhh, yeah, a little bit. It's changed a little bit over the years because we sold it uhh, it was almost done, but there were still a few places that weren't finished. So uhh when I went to visit I could see the changes. Garden in the back, a little bit gazebos, you know, stuff like that. We had an outhouse, when we used to live there and they made a bathroom inside, so those little things. So there is like uhh grape vines on, somebody planted that so. They got like a patio out in the front area and grapevines covering that so you can see like people set up outdoor tables and stuff there. So little changes. LB: And can you tell me about the floor plan on the inside? DK: It was a one-story house. There was like, walk-in, a kitchen. Uhh I think there was like two bedrooms. And there was like a living room-area. Umm we had uhh like a cellar, which was not finished. It was like a hole in the ground, where you could keep your canned food, there's some shelves. It' like different from our basements here. It's kind of like a third-world looking home. The ceiling or uhh the roof was uhh like made of metal sheets. It's not like, you have shingles here stuff like that. Just a little. Small little home. There was only two of us when, two of us uhh kids when we left there so it suited us fine. I remember the backyard had, like uhh big garden and so our backyard was connected to the neighbor across, who had a garden too, so they were adjacent to each other. Everybody lived like that. In the south people planted a lot of their own vegetables and stock up for the winter. LB: Hmm. Were you close with your neighbors? DK: Umm not really. Because it's kind of like when we lived there, we were uhh like Christian-Protestant and that was uhh looked down upon cause everybody, that country, the Soviet Union was based on atheism. And if you were Christian, you were looked at, like the enemy of the state. So all your neighbors kind of treated you bad. Cause they didn't want to kind of socialize with you. You were kind of looked at as outcasts of the society there. HG: So when you came to America, did you guys feel that you fit in better here and weren't like so out casted here, while still keeping in touch with your Russian roots and everything? DK: Well we felt, outcasted here a little bit because you were of a different culture, so it's just kind of a different umm segregation you could say. It's not like uhh you're going to get a hard time getting a job or anything like that but you couldn't get a good job, because you can't speak English and you're kind of weird. They put you somewhere in the back of the office you know. Less paying job. So, you couldn't get a good opportunity - you know good paying job unless you, you know had to get a, uhh you know go to school, get a degree in something. And that's like for my parents' generation that was kind of really hard to do. Because you know, you got two little kids in your arms that you just came here with. You got to pay the bills, so you ended up taking some crappy job somewhere. It's a hard laboring job and you work hard long hours to pay the bills and provide for your family. So we couldn't really move up. The only way to move up was kind of get your own business. Some kind of self-employed opportunity and then you could make some decent living. LB: Who did you get your hardworking attitude from? DK: Umm. My dad was hardworking but my mom's side is like more uhh. Well my dad had his own business there, so he came here with kind of entrepreneurial spirit. He had that. My mom's side is better at keeping money and managing it, so I kind of got a little bit of hybrid from both. So I got the work ethic from my dad but I'm more business savvy, I think from my mom's side. More strategic I think. My dad is just a hard-working guy. You know, try not to be a busy guy. Not to be a busy fool. You know, try to make money. LB: You said you brought over pictures. What was one of your favorite pictures? DK: Umm. I have this one album which is like only pictures of like uhh gatherings and just random day-to-day life. I think that's my favorite album. I have a wedding album that's brought. It's kind of cool to look at. I like the other one because it's got pictures of all our relatives. Umm like our dog we had there. My dad's motorcycle that he had. Just like cool little stuff like that. So I think that's my favorite one. LB: So in reference to weddings, how would they compare to weddings here? DK: Uhh well, for example from uhh if you're in a Christian background, you don't drink, there is no wild parties at your wedding. You have wild parties there too. Like people get drunk. You know make a big mess at the wedding. Or uhh the weddings over there are crazy, like if you are secular. So there's a lot of dancing uhh maybe wedding fights and stuff like that. It gets a little Jerry Springer over there. Umm but our weddings are you know more civil. So uhh like a typical wedding would be go to the cer- ceremony at the church. Then afterwards go to the reception. Umm you have a lot of songs, people wish nice things for you, bring you gifts, and umm we have the cutting of the cake and all that. Which is the same as over there too. HG: Umm going back to your religion, could you kind of give us a background on like your church? DK: Mhmm. Umm when our family immigrated here, there was one or two families that were Russian speaking. They were from the same uhh umm denomination as we were. And we used to visit American churches and uhh it was kind of hard for them to understand so they're like okay. Then a few more families started to move in here. And we were like okay why don't we start our own. So my dad was actually the one that organized the Russian-Ukrainian Baptist Church here. And he uhh him and our relatives and a couple friends, they joined up. And all the families had a lot of kids, like 8, 10 kids. So the church grew rapidly and you get families moving in. The 90s there was a lot of uhh immigration. The church kind of grew to a couple hundred members. And you know kids there, maybe up to like a hundred kids and stuff. So, like 40 to 50 people. So umm that's how it started. We were renting it first and for probably 15 years. Till we bought our own building, which was uhh Farmer to Market Road, across from Maine Endwell High School. The Spartan High School. It used to be Barrion Baptist Church, now it's the Russian-Ukrainian Baptist Church. There's a Presbyterian Church on the corner of Hooper Road and Farmer to Market. We're the second church. It's like that red brick building. HG: I think I've seen it because I've gone by that way before, so I probably have seen it. That's really cool. DK: We get uhh all the city gets together there to watch the fireworks and stuff on July 4th. So a lot of visitors. So uhh yeah that's how it started. Then we had people move to different places and then new people came moved from different states. We really-you don't really have a lot of immigration now. I mean we have a couple families that just moved from Ukraine. Uhh where Donetsk, Lugansk where the war is going on. So uhh they were uhh immigrated there as refugees. But otherwise there is no really big immigration going on anymore. Umm people uhh just kind of moving from different states, trying to look for a better opportunity I guess. Binghamton doesn't have too much opportunity here so people try to get out of here as soon as possible. My dad just moved here there was Endicott-Johnson it was in you know its dying days but it was still working. And he was a shoe smith so he got a job there. He worked there for a few years, then they moved to Texas. Umm, so just kind of, IBM was gone you know not a lot of tech jobs. You didn't have Locke Martin, BAE, umm but. Better opportunities elsewhere we're kind of stuck here cause family's here, the longer you live here, the more rooted you get, you know, you got a you got a house, you got a church, you got a business here. Umm so it's you know like the two lights on. HG: So you said earlier how you also went to SUNY Broome. DK: Mhmm. HG: What did you study there like get your degree in? DK: I was an aspiring dentist at first. Uhh I came here in 2005, I started to 2008 I got my Associates in Liberal Arts or Liberal uhh Associates in Science in Liberal Arts Degree. Did that and then I transferred to Binghamton University. Uhh I went there for one semester, then I got married, and then it was just hard to work and go to school and all that. So I quit that. Umm I wanted to be a dentist at first, like I said. And I think I just wanted to do that; it was to... I thought it was kind of a social status. Being a doctor here is cool. And they're respectable and they make decent money. And that's why I think, I wanted to go into that field. I started shadowing a lot of dentists, who worked in the dental office. And then uhh I kind of changed my mind on it. It wasn't the only way to make money. It wasn't worth all the student debt they're all in. I realized, you can make same digit doing other things. So I started my own business. Uhh I kind of fell back to dental laboratory. So I make uhh dental appliances, like dentures, crown-bridge, partials. Umm so it's kind of related to the dental field but minus the student debt. HG: Umm you also said earlier how you just you got married. Have you ever gone back to Russia with your wife? DK: No I would really like to but it's uhh kind of like a dream of mine. Umm it'd be really nice to, take my son. I have one son. To go there and just introduce my wife to my side of the family and meet her side of the family there. Her side's in Ukraine still. So uhh it would be really nice to do that. Yeah so, it's just a lot more money now. When I just left with my parents, you know you'd have to worry about the bills coming back and waiting for you. Uhh probably you'd just buy your ticket, which was like a thousand dollars and you know just some fun money. Because your relatives you know got everything else, you know the living expenses covered. Like 2 grand, is like more than enough to have fun there. Now it's gonna be like two tickets for my wife, for me, for my kid. So it's like 3 grand there, you know. Then we've going to have to travel to Ukraine and Russia now. LB: Hmm. DK: Uhh so. I need at least 5 grand to go there plus all the bills that wait for me when I get back. And all the time lost at work. You can't go for a week, you know. You need at least 2 weeks and that's Russia and everything. And that's not enjoying you time there. 3 weeks would be nice but working you can't afford to take 3 weeks off here and you might not have a job when you come back [Laughs]. LB: Can you tell us more about your wife? DK: Yeah she is uhh 5 years younger than me. Umm I meet her in New York. She's from Minneapolis. She uhh she moved there in early 2002 or something like that. She came here. I met her at one of the church events, one of the camps so. They came with their youth to our camp like I said our church network communicates. So they came here. Umm I met her after one of these typical camps. Started talking to her. We had a fairly quick wedding. I met her in our church and she left. Then in like two or three days later, I found her number on Facebook, started talking and chatting then texting, calling. Then a month later I went there, met her family. While I was there I figured I would propose while I'm there. LB: Aww! DK: So, I knocked it out in a month. And three months later, we had a wedding, which was here, in uhh Vestal. She moved here. And been married 5 and a half years now. LB: What was her family like? DK: Her family is very similar. She has a bigger family. We only have four kids in our family. They have seven kids. So she was one of the older ones. I'm the oldest in my family. She's the second oldest. So she had a lot of younger siblings still. Umm also very similar. Very hard, you know their dad's a painter, just typical trade work. Umm very close just like us. So she had a hard time moving away. She you know wasn't able to be as close with her sisters anymore because everybody is so far away. But her sister is getting married now, and moving here. LB: Oh wow. DK: Yeah, So she is going to have a buddy to hang out with. She can go shopping. I can do my guy stuff. HG: So you said you had, that one of your hobbies was that you like was working on cars? Why do you like working on cars so much? DK: Umm. Well one of the things is uhh my dad did them. For like that was one of his side jobs. He would fix cars, do body work. So I picked that up from him. Umm I don't think I-- I will correct myself, it's not really working on cars, it's flipping cars. Like buying and selling. So I like to buy cars and I don't know. I just like making money. And I think that's my thing. I found uhh I found my passion in life. Just so I can spend it and have fun you know? Get some enjoyment out of life. LB: I'm hoping I find that after college [everyone laughs]. DK: Yeah Yeah. HG: 12 minutes. LB: Is there anything else that you would like to add, that we didn't cover? Any interesting stories. A story about why your parents decided to emigrate? DK: Umm. Well, so I think my dad just got fed up with, the way of life there. Just the corruption, umm just wanted. Oh also now that I think about it everybody, all the guys have to go to the army there, when your 18 years old. So it was like a like a mandatory thing. Here you only go voluntarily if you want to. So my parents were kind of worried about that. My dad had a lot of brothers, and he knows how that life is. So he can, there is a lot of you know conflicts going on with Russia being involved militarily in campaigns, here and there. So they didn't want us to be stuck somewhere, and have to go serve, you know. Uhh so they kind of avoided that. Uhh nobody wants to raise their kids, to see them go die somewhere you know for some stupid cause. LB: Was your father in the military? DK: Yeah. He was uhh. Like I said when you're 18 you have to go serve for two years. But then basically every. You can, up until you have two kids or up until you're thirty years old or thirty-five years old. You can be drafted back in and be retrained and you have to update your knowledge. So there's always like you always get a letter. Come, go to the military post and go serve for another year or two. So like he was always trying to avoid that. Hiding out in relatives' house. And he moved from Ukraine, which helped. They kept sending mail there. So he was able to avoid that for a while. Till he had kids. Till he split from there. LB: Did he have any stories about the military? DK: Umm. Uhh. Like I said cause of religious persecution that kind of uhh. That that was affected in the military too. Like you were sent to the crappiest jobs there. You had to go like clean and like toilets or dig ditches and do the hard work. Nobody trusts you with a weapon anywhere. You were kind of sent to those kinds of jobs in the army. It's kind of more like a National Guard sort of style is where he was. Umm so, when you were there, people mistreated you, sent you to do hard work. But once he was there, after a while people realized you know, they're honest people, you can trust them and umm he had it fairly easily afterwards. He had uhh a good job where uhh he fixed boots and stuff for soldiers. He had it made afterwards. People would give him you know like gifts and stuff so he gives them nice boots, so they could go home and see their parents. He had a nice little sweet spot he found I guess. LB: Mhmm, he found his niche. HG: So did your dad only serve the two years that he had to? DK: Yeah. HG: Or did he serve longer? DK: Yeah he served the two years. Umm every time they sent him a letter, he was able to avoid it somehow. Some people try to get married early and have two kids before you're 18. I've heard stories about that. Avoid, find a loop hole. HG: It's like 9 minutes. So. DK: I'd say life in the states is good. Fairly. I like it here. Umm still have a sense of patriotism too. So it always kind of sucks when you see, you know, our government's conflicting. There is always this. Russia's trying to inspire to be a world power too and you know, America has its own interests. And it's always kind of worrying, when you hear rhetoric like that. So it'd be nice to get along [everyone laughs]. HG: It would be. Well thank you so very much for taking time to uhh let us interview you. We found it very informative. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis A. Kalashnik Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Kalashnik, Dennis A. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia -- History; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kalashnik, Dennis A. ; Bretz, Logan ; Germann, Heaven Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dennis A. Kalashnik is a Russian-Ukrainian Immigrant and business owner. He was born in Krasnodar Krai, Russia and came to the States in 1991 when he was four years old. Both of his parents are Ukrainian. He is married and resides in Endwell. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-13 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dennis Kalashnik.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 52:20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71ae87a5cd1744c9575d68e564205975.jpeg 23b9b3b0526d5eca637485b644c9ecd3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f7dec43aa1994e5a82686ebddf39b68.mp3 a5b219f8ae3e8b0f1e3c31a9714833bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Hatala Biographical Text Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 81:41 minutes Date of Interview 2016-06-23 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Dr. Peter Hatala Interviewed by: Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 23 June 2016 Interview Setting: St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Heather DeHaan: So, first I want to thank you Dr. Hatala for agreeing to be interviewed. We are on Thursday of the 23rd of June 2016, and we are in the basement of St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City– Peter Hatala: In the boardroom– HD: In the boardroom. PH: Right. HD: In the boardroom where we also have at our disposal a number of collections of family histories for members of the congregation um that were gathered at the initiative of doctor Hatala. So, could you begin by giving us your full name? PH: Uh, my name is Dr. Peter Hatala. I was uh born in Johnson City in New York on the North side, August 16th 1932, and uh I am a uh Johnson City Graduate, but uh before that um of course my roots have been my father Nicolas Hatala was from Ulychne in Austria-Hungary and uh he was born in 1882 and passed away I think in (19)73. HD: So, 1882 to 1973. PH: Right. HD: Okay, so um, first of all when did your father come to North America? PH: He came in uh 1910. I have his Ellis Island uh certificate, I do not have it with me, and my mother, I do not know when she came in, I was thinking around 1912 with her uncle or with her brother actually. There is only three in the family. So, she came with one of the brothers and actually here is the family trees signed by … that on the website and of my mother, right there. HD: Ok, so your mother was her name– PH: Kankavich? HD: So, we have it, Maria. PH: Yes. HD: Okay. So, Maria came with her older brother, her younger brother and a parent? PH: Josephine, yeah, her mother was Josephine. HD: Okay. PH: Came with an older brother and, they came through Ellis Island also but I could not get her Ellis Island certificate and a lot of it was the wording of the name or how it was spelled. I had a hard time getting my dad’s until I saw his name spelled in Polish with a J on the end, and his name was Nicolas. So, I never put a J on the end. But it was that is how I got his. So, I am going to try to get my mum’s too. I belonged to Ellis Island before, long time back and I am going to join again because I want to go there. My daughter lives in Long Island. And uh so I can hope over to Ellis Island very quickly when we go to visit them you know. I was going to do it this time over the July 4th weekend but it was not such a good time because it was going to be so busy and probably the safety part of it she said is not that good either you know, so– HD: Yeah, I want to go back to thinking about when your parents came through Ellis Island, do you know why they came, and did they come directly to Johnson City? PH: No, actually the reason why they came was just to have a better life from what they had and the fact at that time, this was in the early 1900s, you know, the lifestyle there was a lot different than it is today. So, I am sure they had hard times and they wanted to better their lives and everything that is why they came over here. My dad first came through Ellis Island and was in the Scranton, Olyphant area in Pennsylvania, and I did have an uncle in Olyphant but since then he has passed away so I have not really followed that that lineage there. But he worked in the coal mine for a while, did not like that so he heard about uh “which way EJ [Endicott-Johnson Shoe Company]” and decided to come to Johnson city and actually that was part of it but he had a farm outside of Windsor for a while and then left that and was in an apartment in Binghamton and then that is when he started working for EJ’s. HD: Okay, so he sold the farm then, in order to work at the factory? PH: I would think that he did but you know it was like 258 acres that they had but the funny part about it is, you know, all the EJ workers were building their own homes in Georgia for foot to mortgage and everything else you know. He was a phenomenal person and he built this area up you know really Johnson city but my dad bought a house on Harry L drive and it was just like a two-family house. He put an addition on, how he did it I have no idea, and but it ended up where he paid for that house too. So, I do not know where there a mortgage to EJ’s or not I do not really know. HD: Is the house still here? PH: Yes. In the corner of Harry L drive in Pearl Avenue. That is where I was born and raised. There is a little story about that house I will have to tell you afterwards, or I can tell you now. HD: Actually, tell us now I am very curious. PH: When I was probably about 12 years old or so. There is an empty lot next to our house and the Oasis restaurant. It was bout and the whole side of the building came a part like this and you know all the glass and everything and the glass in our house was gone and everything, and I remember that, you know. HD: I bet, I think anyone would… that must have frightened you. PH: But the reason why was he was still selling bears for five cents a glass and had to be the mafia or something and after that he you know followed the rules I guess. HD: Raised the price. PH: Yeah. HD: Wow. Was the Oasis Restaurant owned by a Ukrainian? PH: Yes, Mr. Golitruck. HD: Okay, I heard… We interviewed Mike, one of my students did so– PH: But we grew up with that family actually, you know, so he was very instrumental and keeping the Ukrainian traditions going because he loved the dancing and the plays that they used to have and he brought in student teachers then was Avramenko who was well-known and everything and he gave a class here that my brother and my sister were in that first class. So, this I think was before our church was even built. HD: This is a class in Ukrainian dance? PH: Ukrainian dance right, and plays and– HD: So, what was the name of the instructor again? PH: Vasyl Avramenko. HD: Avramenko, okay. PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. Very interesting. Um– PH: I never met him [laughs]. HD: [laughs] PH: I had the pamphlet that they had though, you know, so. HD: So, your mother’s family; are they also from former Austria-Hungary? PH: Yes. HD: From the same region? PH: Actually, if you are looking at Poland now; here is Poland here is Ulychne right here and down about, you know, I do not know maybe fifty miles or less maybe ten miles, I do not know, is Tara Vavruska. That is where my mum was from. HD: Okay. PH: So, it is the same area; Austria-Hungary. HD: Okay. Further south. PH: I do not know when they met, where they met, anything of that nature, you know. And during the war, before the second World War and a little bit afterwards my mum always kept correspondence with her family, you know, and in the late forties is when all correspondence stopped. So, she could not get a hold on them anymore and this was because the Polish and the Russian government split up the families and their whole family was split up. So, actually I ended up meeting my uncle Leon Gancevich when I was over there with my daughter Pan. And he lived right next to the German border, so that is where he was transported from one side of Poland and they split up the whole families. You could not go two people from one family going to the same place. Split them all up. HD: So, this was deliberate then? PH: Yes, yes yeah! HD: Wow! Um go– PH: But actually, a lot of it was the Russian influence too not only the Polish influence you know, but um, yeah. HD: But now you are… are you in touch with anyone else on your mother’s side apart from– PH: I was with Leon in fact, my two granddaughters when they came and met us he brought us his brother and, no must be his son. And then two granddaughters and they had just taken two years of English. So, they were the interpreters because I could not speak Polish, I could understand a little bit of Ukrainian but, and that is a different story too. HD: That means they grew up speaking Polish not Ukrainian? PH: Yes. HD: Okay. That makes sense. PH: Well actually, you know, like my mum or my dad was Ukrainian but he could speak Polish. My mum was Polish but she could speak Ukrainian, so they talked both languages there. HD: Okay. PH: Possibly even, you know others too, I do not know. But they wanted to learn English especially my mom because my dad working in EJ’s, you know, got a lot of that so he was a citizen already and my mom was not. So, I used to teach her, you know, all the questions and everything that had to be done and that was great. HD: Did your mom learn Ukrainian? PH: Was she what? HD: Did she learn Ukrainian because she grew up she was Polish? PH: She knew Ukrainian, yeah. No, she… You know I would think that she was Ukrainian. I never thought that she was from that side of the, you know, from Polish. But the name of course is a Polish name, you know. So– HD: Very interesting– PH: But I always thought she was Ukrainian. AD: What was the language in the house when you were growing up? PH: It is very interesting because both my parents wanted to learn English and of course, you know, my growing up I could not really do too much with them but my brothers and sisters did too while they were still living there. So, I kind of grew up by myself because by the time I was 12 or so or younger my brothers and sister had already been married and moved out of the house. So, they were stuck with me [laughs]. HD: How many of them? How many children were there in your family? PH: Five; two brothers and two sisters. Yeah, in fact this year, my two older sisters passed away; one at 92 and one at 96, and one in February and one in April. Yeah, so we came back from Florida a little bit quicker, than what we wanted too, you know, and my first sister Annie passed away in February, so I came back and you know went through all of that and they were sharp as tacks, really, you know, unbelievable. And my sister Mary especially, you know. But I spent some time with them before and I came home about a week before my sister Mary passed away so I came home on a Sunday. I spent a whole day, Monday with her, she lives in Port Crane and we talked for about two hours, you know. And she says I am getting better every day. So, you know, and I talked to her every day, went up there a couple of times and talked to her on Saturday before she passed away. So, it was nice. HD: Did everyone stay in this region, so your brothers and both of your sisters? PH: Yes, both of my brothers did, both of my sisters did. HD: And are they all members of this church? PH: Yes, well no my two brothers married couple of Polish girls from St. Stanislaus so, that was the church that they went to, you know. They stayed with their wives. HD: Okay. PH: But we are a family we are still very close. HD: Yeah, and I guess my other questions do you all in your homes maintain Ukrainian or Polish right, some sort of homeland tradition and practices? PH: Mostly Ukrainian. HD: Okay. So, this is intriguing to me. Why the Ukrainian when you also have Polish in your heritage? Do you have any idea? PH: I think a lot depends on the traditions, you know, as far as our immediate family it was always Ukrainian, and actually my wife was Catholic, Roman Catholic, we got married in a Roman Catholic Church but I stayed with St. John’s and she stayed with Saint James and at that time the Catholic religion was changing a little bit you know, it went from Latin to English, and then they had music in the churches and everything else too, you know, so she was kind of disenchanted with that, so I think about three years into our marriage she, we sat with father and Pani and uh she decided to change. So, she did. She is a great Ukrainian, Polish– HD: [laughs] PH: And Slovak. [laughs]. She was Polish and Slovak, yeah. HD: Okay, that makes sense, um now with your wife’s family, was she also born in Johnson City, did she grow up in Johnson City? PH: I did not, she did. HD: And her parents worked at EJ? PH: Actually, her dad worked at EJ’s first, her parent her mom they had eight kids so she was a stay-at-home mom. Then he left EJ’s and worked for IBM. He worked evenings because he was an avid golfer so he would golf during the daytime and worked at night. HD: Wow! [laughs]. So, before I wanted before I talk about your own family, you know, raising kids, I am really curious about um life on the street, near where you grew up because you know there was Ukrainian quarter store, the Oasis is Ukrainian restaurant, there are two, now there are two Ukrainian churches on this hill, there must have been a lot of Ukrainian people living on the same street, what was it like when you– PH: Yes and no. They were kind of spread out all over the place. I mean there is a couple of families on Myrtle avenue, there is, there quite a few on Pearl avenue, some on Harry L drive, you know right in that whole section on the North side primarily. And it was because there was a church there and the church originally was in a grocery store. It was Kiriam’s grocery store on Harry L Drive that was where they had services to begin with. And then they went from there when the church was built they went from there and right up to the church on Virginia Avenue. And that was in, the church was built in 1929 but the church itself was started like in 1926 that was when they had a Ukrainian community there, you know. And my parents were one of the founding families also. So, there were you know quite a few families and it was interesting how they started though, you know, so– HD: So, when you had time to play as a kid, did you mostly play with your siblings, did you go on the street and play with other kids on the street, did you go to the church? PH: Not my siblings were– HD: They were older– PH: Yeah, they were older so, and actually none of them graduated from high school. I was the first son to graduate from high school. HD: Interesting– PH: So, in those days, you worked, you know as soon as you could you support the family and help the family and both my brothers worked for Endicott Johnson. They both had Endicott Johnson homes, you know. So, that was one of the things too, you know. Maybe my brother Nicks was not in an EJ home, I do not know but my brother Joe’s was. He was the oldest one anyway. But my growing up we had about 20 or 30 guys in that whole neighborhood but like over two or three streets and everything, and very active but especially sports, you know. But we did not, you know, twelve years old when father and Pani came here. That’s a different story I will get into that after, but actually our neighborhood was just strictly, you know with the boys we played Kick the Can in the street and other things you know. Hide and go seek, kids I do not think do that anymore [laughs], except maybe in the house. HD: [laughs], yeah-yeah. PH: But it was a great growing up, you know. And my parents were fantastic, I mean we had no car, did not have a car we walked every place, you know. And they were great parents. HD: So, your father walked to work? He worked to EJ? PH: Yeah. Walked to EJ’s. I walked to high school. I walked to Harry L Drive; I walked to Johnson City High school to see Fred. You know, so I did walk. HD: Wow! PH: Getting little tears in my eyes. HD: [laughs]… What about, how much was the church a center of social life beyond just Sunday? PH: For me it was and anybody in that age range really was more when father and Pani came when I was 12 years old, but there was a lot before that because I was an altar boy at seven that was usually when you can become an altar boy and we had, we did not have Ukrainian dancing then. I mean there, I think there was an older group but we also were very instrumental and singing our Christmas Carols on the seventh of January, and we used to go from house to house when I was a kid you know we started Ukrainian school at the age seven and it was five days a week from four to five o’clock in the afternoon. I hated every minute of it, because that was when we played in the neighborhood, you know after school. So, as a consequence our teachers were not that good and probably was a priest or somebody else I remember, you know, and as a consequence I did not learn very much Ukrainian and my parents did not teach me Ukrainian. They wanted know English. So, you know I spoke to them in English and they spoke to me in an Americanized Ukrainian, you know, so that is how we got along. But, you know, like I said at that time like when I was seven, I think my sister Annie maybe still home but my two brothers and older sister were not, you know, so, but I feel badly about that now because I started in a choir when father and Pani came I was under a couple of other priests as an altar boy but when I came when I was 12 when they came in he wanted to start the choir so he put me in the choir and took me of the altar because he had a lot of altar boys. So, I started singing tenor in a choir now I am a bass [all laugh] but since I was 12 so I am still, you know, I have been singing almost 72 years. HD: You are still there. Wow! PH: In a choir so. HD: And I have heard your choir, it is beautiful. PH: It used to be a larger choir than what it is now, but you know and it was great, all my kids sang in a choir too in order once; my son Mark, my daughter Pam and the other ones did not sing too much there but they know all the Christmas and carol’s and things. So, when I was seven they had a children’s choir that we went. We used to walk in Johnson city just couple of streets in a winter time in a snow and that is how we did it, you know, they had another regular choir from our church choir that went around and you know to all the houses and things and they had an adult choir. They used to go to all the Oasis’ and night clubs, not the night clubs but the other beer joints or whatever restaurants… so we had three choirs back in those days. HD: So, I am curious because you know this hill that the churches on, there are a lot of EJ houses and the streets go straight up the hill. Did you walk up those hills? PH: Oh, yes. HD: How did you have enough breath to sing [laughs]? Wow! PH: You know it is funny because growing up we had the CFJ pool, you could swim there for nothing. We did not do that. We used to build dams in a creek you know, and we had that were six and eight feet deep. That was how they were. So that is what we did. That was kids growing up but we still went to the CFJ pool too. But that is where we played in the creek you know. We used to play under water tag and you know water was clear so we would get side throw it in, dirty the water up so you could not see anything. That is how we played. [all laugh]. HD: Most people want clean water, right? PH: Well, you know, we did not so we could not see each other you know. HD: Yeah, that is great. PH: That is great and then, as far as walking up to hills, we used play in the hills all the time, and we would also go up Stella Island Road to, it used to be a dairy farm up there that had a little pond. So, we used to, we even built a damn that far up in a creek you know, so that was up until I was like 12 years old or so, you know. So that is what we did. HD: So, the rule was you could play until supper time? PH: Uh Actually, when I was going to the Ukrainian school from like about 7 until 10 I think, I think after that I do not know what happened, maybe it was more than that, you know, tough to remember back [all laugh] that time, you just remember the good things in, but else happened you know. So, the neighborhood itself really very-very, you know, it was just really a good bringing up, you know, kids do not do that anymore. And right on the corner across the street from us was Collis’ grocery store and a gas station there. So that was always the headquarters. We would always be sitting there. So, my mother came out about 9 o’clock at night and say, she would say, Peedie come home [laughs] and I would get embarrassed all the time. So, I was probably one of the youngest ones in that group, you know, of the 20 or 30 that we had. So, I was the all-time center in a football team. I get killed all the time, and we used to get on a bus in Johnson City on Main Street travel to Endicott with our football gear on, play an Endicott team and come back on a bus. The parents never took us anywhere, of course my parents did not have a car but the other parents did not take us anyplace either, you know. So, this is how we grew up. HD: Did your wife grow up in the same neighborhood? PH: She grew up on Reynolds Road which was kind of the Oakdale such in a Johnson City. That is where she went to school; Oakdale. All of our group went to Harry L Drive. So that is what it is now. It is an apartment house or a nursing home now. HD: So how did you meet your wife? PH: That is a good story [laughs]. It had to be I think about 1956 because I got home from the service then and I was tending bar at Saint Jon’s social club and some of the girls from our church were good friends with her. And they came down and I think it had to be when she was 18 because I think I made her, her first screwdriver, so you know, I remember that and she remembers that. So, that is when we met, you know, we just met to say hello that was it, you know. And a couple of the girls from my church were in her same little group in school. So that is how I met. So, I became interested and uh actually I was about uh 26 when I got married and she always she was thirteen. [all laugh]. But she was not. So, a couple years after that we got married. I think the following year it had to be, no it had to be let us see more than maybe (19)57 is when I went to Georgetown and second year is when we got married, my second year after Georgetown. HD: So, why did you go to Georgetown? PH: Dental school. HD: Okay. PH: At first, I, actually I got out of the high school in 1950. I worked for a year I did not go to college, and I worked as a bookkeeper and truck loader at Douglas Collins Supply Company for a year. And then I went to Broome which was not Broome then it was New York State Institute of Applied arts and Sciences. So, I went there for two years in Chemistry. I thought I was going to be a chemical engineer. And I got interested in Dentistry after I have got out of service. But before that there is no reason why I would become a dentist as a youngster and we did not have regular dental care or anything, you know, so I went to the EJ dental clinic and I had three first molars extracted– HD: Not a great experience! PH: So, how would I want to be a dentist you know– HD: Oh, no. [laughs]. PH: So, those teeth actually came in, my third, my second and my wisdom teeth came in, three of them and I just had one wisdom tooth that I have had taken out eventually. But that was it. HD: So, when were you on service? PH: 1954 to 1956. HD: Okay. PH: I was in a Signal Corps, and I went to a foreign country, Puerto Rico. HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: For two years. HD: Was it a good experience? PH: Yes, very much so. HD: So, anybody else, I do not know how it works in military, is there anyone else from this region that went with you, signed up at the same time, ended up in the same area? PH: There were two that came from this area that went to… we had to go up to Syracuse for a physical, and once we went through there, we went to basic training together but then we got split up during basic training. HD: Okay, and then you met your wife after you came back? PH: Yes. HD: You said was the Saint John’s social club? So, tied to this church? PH: Yeah. HD: Interesting. PH: That is in the memorial center, still is there. HD: Okay, so was it open every evening or once a week? PH: Well, I think it was open every evening back then, yeah. HD: And they had a bar you said? PH: They had a bar, yeah. And of course, I would be in the bar we did not get paid or anything but you know that is how it was. HD: And did a lot of people come including people from outside the Ukrainian community? PH: When I was a bartender we had, we made the most out of anybody there that whole month. HD: [laughs] That is great. PH: Because I got all my friends in, you know so. HD: Yeah. So that whole crowd of 20 or 30 you hang out with, did they all come? PH: Well not that many but a few, yeah. HD: Okay, that is really good. So, now you met your wife, in that interlude between meeting your wife and actually marrying your wife, for instance when you brought her home, I mean your parents are already Ukrainian-Polish mixed, so they must have been thrilled, did they care what her background was? PH: My mother said why you do not marry a nice Ukrainian girl. HD: What [laughs], okay? PH: But my wife Phyllis was fantastic, you know. HD: Yeah, they could not… what about her family? Did they want a nice Polish boy? PH: No, not really. I just taught her mother a little Ukrainian saying, and once I told her what it was that was it you know. So, she loved me from that time on. HD: What was the saying? PH: [all laugh]. In fact, I told Phyllis this too, so she memorized it, I did not tell her what it was. [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Okay, and can we have the quote? What does it mean? PH: “How are the chickens shitting?” HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: So once her mother knew that, that was it. HD: That is very funny. [laughs] PH: [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Yeah. So, now– PH: So actually, I met her that first time after my first year in dental school, so the second year is, or it had to be the first year that I met her because then we start going out through now like, she would not go out at first and then we did go out for like two weeks and that was it. And I was wearing a new outfit just about as much as I could so after first week or a week and a half so I had to go back to what I wore before actually and she did not but I did not know she was borrowing clothes from her girlfriends. HD: [laughs] Oh, that is great. PH: Yeah, she had a different outfit on all the time. So, we went for two weeks we had such great time. We went out every night after the first date. You know. HD: Where did people go? PH: We went to, first date, we went to Schnitzel bank which was a restaurant on upper Court Street, and they had these little straws and we used to break them and it would fly up to the ceiling so we kept doing that we just had such a good time and good dinner and everything, and then after that we went to one of the pick stands in Endicott and that was it we had such a good time. HD: So now you… after you went to dental school, you got married– PH: I got married after my second year of dental school. HD: After your second year? PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. PH: During the second year. HD: When you finished dental school, did you work for someone else? Did you set up your own dental office? PH: I was already accepted to Ortho-school when I was a senior I had applied and we had our first child then, and it was like in May of the year I was supposed to go up to Buffalo for an interview, Pam was being born, she was born in April but she was. It was still, you know, was not ready to… it was the first part of April. I was in the middle of the final exams and had no money to go from Washington D.C. to Buffalo, so I called and told them, and said I cannot do it. So they put me on an alternate list and so when I got out of school, when I graduated, I worked for another orthodontist, Dr. Orchard in Binghamton and of course they wanted me to come in to the practice and everything too you know, but I was only there a couple of weeks and set up a preceptorship program and at that time you could do it that way but it had to be approved by the American Orthodontic Association. So, it was approved but the problem was I set up the program and you know, so I did not get much input from Dr. Orchard. So, I knew I could not get the education I needed so I was there like two months and it was approved and everything and I called Buffalo again and they said well come up for an interview which I did, and when I, they said well we will accept you the following September. So, when I went back and told Dr. Orchard he was not very happy but I told him why and I said, it is changing and everything and you just have to have the education. So that is what happened. But he still had me on a payroll and everything, you know I was getting 75 dollars a week and that is what kept us going so, that was really you know. That is how it was. So, when I came back after that of course during that first year with Dr. Orchard is when Dr. Mark was born and we went up to actually I went up to Buffalo myself for three months, my wife came up after about three months or so, and she was expecting then and that is where Jeffry was born in Buffalo. So, Pam was born in Washington… right where one of the Kennedy’s was born at the same time so, I met him there when I was… We watched him coming to the hospital, you know and everything. Pam was interesting because that was our first born and we did not know what was up or down and the OB guy we had was fantastic, you know, he did not charge us a nickel and the… he wanted to know what kind of anesthesia you wanted, you know, and my wife did not want any pain she said I do not want to feel any pain or anything baba so we had a general anesthesia, believe it or not they do not do that anymore. HD: No! PH: So Pam’s first breath was taken after about 12 minutes after she was born and I have it right on her medical records and everything and I did not get that until Pam became, she went to nursing school at Georgetown, So I said pull up your record and make a copy for, you know, so she did 12 minutes underlined in red first breath, so of course they did not cut the umbilical cord anything you know but that is what happened. HD: So, now we asked before the interview, but I am looking at the information again now how many children do you have? PH: Six. HD: Six. How many boys, how many girls? PH: Three boys, three girls. HD: Okay, and do they all still live in this area? PH: All live in the area except my daughter Pam who, not Pam but Nicole who married a boy and from Massapequa park in Long Island and they came here, they lived in New Jersey for a while, they came back here and he got his MBA at SUNY Binghamton and so they lived here for a while then at that time he was working after that he worked for IBM for a little bit of time, then once his friend from Wall Street was a managing director up in stockbrokerage firm in Boston and he took a job up there. So, you know they got them a free ride up there and everything else and he became actually a managing director himself while he was up there. So, she is in Boston my other daughter Christie when Nicole got married another boy from Massapequa park was in the wedding ceremony too so he kind of liked Christie so they were going back and forth and they got engaged and disengaged and got engaged and then finally got married, so then she moved to Massapequa park. That is where she is now. The other four stayed here. HD: And what events… I think you said that they come… everybody comes and they gather here for Ukrainian Christmas? PH: Ukrainian Christmas right, on the 7th of January– HD: And the Festival, in mid of July. PH: Oh, the ones that can, make it from out of town. But they usually do and we do it on Easter, so our Easter is always… so it is different from American Easter, they would all come in the town on Easter. And my wife does all the cooking. AD: Ukrainian? Does she cook Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. Well we have Haluski and Pierogi and you know. HD: So also, how many grandchildren do you have? PH: Nineteen. HD: And how many great grandchildren? PH: One and a half. [all laugh]. One year old, she is like fifteen or sixteen months. She is unbelievable. You know, she calls me Beepa. Well, Pam called us Meema and Beepa, she could say Grandme and Grandpe, so my wife is a Meema, I am a Beepa. We used to have that on a license plate, but we do not have it anymore. HD: So, raising you children, was important to you that they knew something about Ukrainian tradition? PH: Well they were involved in a church all the way through their young life, adult life and afterwards. HD: So, what is it…? What aspects of Ukrainian culture are particularly valuable you think for your children and grandchildren? PH: Well we have to go back to when father and Pani came in 1945 because they were a big influence on us, and they had the ability to be a member of everybody’s life, you know. Everybody thought that you know, they were part of their family which is really true. So, we used to say to our kids, if you do not behave we are going to tell father and Pani. So that was kind of a hammer over their heads you know, but they were fantastic people. And they instilled the traditions, you know the caroling, the dancing. They started the dance group when they first came. And I was 12 then but she said to the boys then and there was a couple of thirteen, fourteen look you do not have the dance with any of the girls, you just do the sort dance and the woodcutters and bluh-bluh … So, then we did that for a little bit of time and then she kind of introduced us to the female aspect of it with dancing, you know we did not dance with girls then, you know. It is different in today but that is what happened. So, we had a great dance group. We probably gave pretty close over that ten-year period time that I danced probably over 100 premises you know all over the country. We used to do it for the EJ dinners and stuff that they had there too. We would have dancing there. We also had an Andrews Sisters act that we put on too myself, George Stasko and John Milwaukee and we did that for a while too but somewhere in those books. HD: So, when you were raising your children, and it might not be even a Ukrainian thing, right what were some of the… what are some of the traditions that brings your children seem to cherish and really want to hold on to, the things that really brought your family together? PH: Well I think it has to be the main stays for the Ukrainian music, you know, the Christmas Carols, the choir carols and things. It had to do with the dancing because they all grew up when they were, started dancing, at two to three year of age and they still do. And it had to be the Christmas celebrations, the Easter celebrations, so and then on January the 7th we used to carol from house to house. And we still do that today, and right now we go… we used to go by cars all the time you know, in the snow and sometimes all the cars would get there sometimes they would not, they get lost or whatever. Now we have a bus, and we all get on a bus and you know, even the young ones and we go. HD: That is great! PH: Yeah. HD: So, do all your children go to Ukrainian Orthodox Churches? PH: Uh-huh. Yep. HD: Great. PH: My daughter goes to… there is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Boston but we go also to an Albanian one. It is the same divine liturgy and everything so, because it is close by and the Southern one is you quite a distance yeah when we go up there we go to Albanian Church. But we have gone to the Ukrainian Orthodox too, so. HD: So, this is something I am curious about too; and it is not necessarily though Ukrainian history per say because the liturgy is shared even though the language changes from one church to the next an Orthodox tradition, do you find you can go to any Orthodox Church and feel very much at home. PH: It is the same Divine Liturgy that may put in a few of the ethnic languages in there but it is all the same Divine Liturgy, you know, and actually Orthodoxy was before Catholicism. So, that is how it started, you know. And so, it goes back, you know that far. HD: That is right. PH: But it has not changed. It is the same Divine Liturgy, you know. HD: What about icons, do you have icons at home? PH: Uh-huh HD: Okay, and are they for religious purposes or are they art? PH: Well, as far as icons are concerned, in our home themselves, we have some but it is not like you would have a lot of them, you know. There was a church in Dover, Florida that a monk built himself. He was actually a doctor and worked in University of Tampa, and that is the most icons I have ever seen in any place. He brought them back from Ukraine and you know, and it was just fantastic, it was a small church almost like almost like our old Church on Virginia Avenue, and he built a rectory actually it was a monastery and he built a memorial center with his own money and I have been there quite a few times and actually whenever the metropolitan, at that time he was a bishop and an archbishop but now he is metropolitan but, would come in to town there so he would always call us and say you got to go to Dover you know because I will be there. That was when we went to Dover. And it was about an hour plus drive from where we were and but I am talking about the young canister, so that is the most I have ever seen. I have been to Ukraine a couple of times and I have been to some of the museums there and everything. Iconography, was you know, was very big there. So– HD: I mean my question was in part whether very traditionally in you know Ukrainian peasant homes or Russian peasant homes they would have an icon corner for instance, right? PH: Yeah. HD: And so, I am wondering if anything of that was carried over to North America an antique in contemporary homes? PH: Well I think it has in a lot of the homes and things. It was not necessarily in ours to begin with. And the iconography, Andreov who lives in Lisle or Whitney Point one of those places was the one that was instrumental and did our iconography behind the altar here, so and that actually was… I was on that iconography committee and it almost split the church in half because of what was happening, Andreov was actually Russian iconographer and it was not so much him as it was the priest we had at that time father Zaroski and who was from Lviv in Ukraine and I have been in Lviv which is a beautiful city and that is a whole different story there but the thing is, the iconography seemed to divide the church because of things they were happening and what they wanted to put up there and what they did not, you know, we had a committee and the committee decided which… what we should have and during like in the middle part of the thing the iconographer wanted to put in a couple of seraphym and cherabum and just we did not want have that in there. So, we took that part out of it, out, and then what happened is that we got a call and I got a call and one of the other guys on the committee called said you know, you got what you wanted now. You wanted these angels on each side of the icon wall and that is where he wanted on the outside of the icon wall, not on the inside where the icon is. You know, so they put it, he put it on the inside without telling the committee or doing anything and you know that kind of you know really made it hard and half the church was okay with-it half was not, you know, so that is really what happened. HD: I do have to say as someone who is not a member of the church and who is not really well-versed in iconography it is a real pleasure to come into a church like that, and I grew up Calvinist, there were no images, and so it is a particular… it brings joy, you know to see it. PH: Right, it does. Icons actually do that. They really do. HD: Yeah. So, we have been talking for over an hour and I do not want to– PH: We have been talking that long? HD: Yeah. So, is there something that I did not ask you that you really wanted to share or were hoping I would ask you? PH: I had somethings here that not about my… but I did on jobs and things I do not think that is really important although I had some very unusual once. Growing up we used to pick beans on a daily basis, peas and beans and a truck would pick us up right on Harry L drive, we go to the fields pick the beans, used get fifty cent a bushel, and it took you a long time to do a bushel. [laughs] HD: Oh, yeah. PH: So, and then drop you off at night. Well one summer, they slogged it, some of the guys in our group, we went up to Norwich and we stayed there for like two, almost three months during the summer. No parents, no parental control, nothing you know, just us, but it was our same group from the area, you know, plus they had other people too, you know but so we pick beans and peas for almost two and a half months. HD: Where did you stay? PH: We stayed in shacks that they had, you know it was kind… like you would see in the movies– HD: Shacks without houses? PH: Shacks with you know bedroom and then they had an outhouse and everything you know. But that is where we used to stay in. AD: How old were you? PH: I had to be probably, probably I was in thirteen, fourteen, 12, 13, 14 area range. HD: This is interesting too, so you worked. This would have been a summer job. PH: Yeah, a summer job. HD: Did you keep your wages or you expected to contribute to the family? PH: Actually, if I remember right I kept my wages. And I remember buying a very colorful sweater and that was it, you know [all laughs]. And when my mother saw that she said, you know, how much did you pay for this, you know, so but we did not make a lot of money, you know, but it was more of… we used to go swimming in a river there, you know, so it was just that was what we did here too, you know, we swam in a river in the Susquehanna many times. HD: How did you find that job? Like did someone come to your high school was– PH: No, this was the job that they did during the summer. These trucks would come and if you wanted to work, that is how you pick peas and beans. HD: Oh, you just went down to Harry L and– PH: yeah, they would just pick us up, you know– HD: Interesting. PH: we probably had 10 or 12 guys went, you know from our area here. And– HD: Did women ever go? Was it mostly young people? PH: Mostly I do not remember too many women going, no. There were no women at the thing in Norwich, they were just men. HD: Oh, yeah, very interesting. Is there anything else? PH: I took Chemistry, you know at Broome, and I was hired by Columbia Gas in Pittsburgh because my next-door neighbor worked for Columbia Gas here, so he said why you do not see what they have, you know. They have an opening there. So, I called and two of us from the class went there and we were accepted. We were building a Chemistry lab, took us two weeks to do that, got all the equipment and everything for testing corrosion on a gas pipeline. Okay, so we had that all done in two weeks. I get a call on entry office and the bus wants me to Willing West Virginia in charge of a 26-inch gas construction line, and you do the corrosion on it too. So, I said I do not know anything about construction or anything he said well, just check with the supervisor, that was it, you know. So went myself by myself, you know I went in for the power wagon and things drove all the way down from Pittsburgh to Willing, West Virginia. It was the first time I was in a power wagon [laughs] had no idea what to expect but anyway a good old redneck all-timer took me under his wing and we got the job done. I am sitting in the dugout where the pipeline is going, you know, and I am checking, putting in some test wires and things and I get up to go out and here is the pipeline up above and a cable snaps bang right where I was sitting– HD: Oh, wow! PH: So, that was I remember that experience very clearly, so yeah. That was kind of-of unusual, you know, then another one I had to do as I had, after that was done, I was put me on another job there was just the two of us from Broome tech and four engineers and I went with this one engineer to Cumberland, Maryland to put in a six foot carbon thing in a water tank, you know these big water tanks you had to climb up and everything. So, I was with this engineer who was afraid of heights. So, I had to carry everything up on that back and forth, a settling torch and all through you know put it on the well into the tank and everything and that was probably one of the worst jobs I have ever had. You know, that was– HD: yeah, so who was sending you on these jobs? Who was your employer, who was sending you on these jobs? PH: It was the guy who was in charge of the corrosion, the department. He was in charge of, he and four other engineers, and the two of us that set up the… and the other guy went with was the guy who was testing the corrosion lines in lab but I did not do that [all laugh]. HD: So, you did this and then before you went to the service? PH: Yeah. HD: Very interesting. PH: After, in fact I came home and worked for six weeks at home, putting in corrosion lines from where Quaker Lake is from that area north for about six weeks, so I put in all the corrosion lines along that pipeline. And then I went back to Pittsburgh and I got drafted. So, they wanted to keep me out, I said no I am going to go in, not knowing– HD: Where– PH: You know, so I was like had to be like about 22 years old. HD: So, was it the experience of having to climb up that water tank that made you decide to be a dentist? PH: No, [all laugh]. I got interested in dentistry after I got out of the service really, and I checked into it and I needed one-year biology in order to get in to the criteria that I needed for dental school. So, I checked with one of the dentists who was a New York State president, New York State Dental Society Dr. Irvy and he said do not go to dentistry. He said it is changing so badly that you know and of course I did not know anything about orthodontics then either but I said well, I still thought being your own boss and you know and doing everything you know that would be the thing to do, so that is what I did. AD: So, your son took over your practice, he is the only other one who studied orthodontics? PH: My youngest son is also a general dentist. AD: Okay. PH: And I let him make up their own mind, I did not push him into dentistry or anything else. So, he did about the same thing that Mark did. So, to get into Eastman Dental you usually have to have two years of general practice, general dental practice and so, Mark and Peter both went to general practice residency in Eastman, first year, second year they took a TMJ, temporomandibular joint course for a year and then you could get into orthodontic school. Right now, I have a grandson Patrick who just graduated from Buffalo Dental. He is accepted to the Orthodontic program at Eastman. He started in 27th of this month, without any experience. That was probably because Mark was on the staff of Eastman Dental, because he still goes up there and teaches up there. So, that is great and Patrick could come back in maybe go take over Mark’s practice. HD: Do you have any family members who work in the practice like behind the desk? PH: Oh, yeah. Well, my wife took care of the pay rolling, when she was when I was working. Both Mark worked in the lab in fact when he was a senior in high school. I sent him up to Buffalo for a week to learn how to all the models and retainers and things, ok, so that was his experience there. All my other kids who worked in the office do as much as I could get them… Mark’s kids do too. AD: Was your office like his office, because we call his office like Disney world? PH: I was in a home. It was Doctor Orchard’s practice, and actually there is an apartment upstairs, and it was a small, you know, we had four operatory and it was tiny but we used all the space that you could. So, Mark was in there about ten years. And I was there when three years after Mark took over. So, that is where it started. It was not like Disney world but we did a lot of nice things you know. We started the scholarship things he gives out every year; ten scholarships, ten or twelve. AD: Yes, he uses a lot of character work is that from you? PH: Well that is when we were together, yeah, we started that. And but he is the entrepreneur too, you know. That is really good. So, he takes a school, you know at least one student from each school is gets a scholarship, you know, so. In fact, he just got something from the Binghamton School system too because we give things to the health area you know and some other things there that he has been doing all that time too. You know so. It is we started way back when… So, it is nice. Yeah. HD: It is great. AD: I always ask this question, so I will ask you too. So how do you identify yourself? PH: How do I identify myself? AD: Yes, like when people ask let us say you are somewhere they do not know you, and how would you say I am American– PH: I am Peter Hatala, you know. I am Ukrainian. AD: So, you say I am Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. AD: Okay. PH: I mean if you get into that conversation, yes. AD: Of course, like when you get in. So, being Ukrainian is part of your identity? PH: But usually I say oh, I have six children and 19 grandchildren. [all laugh] AD: Of course. PH: I do not say one and a half grandchildren. So– AD: So how about your children? Do they identify themselves as Ukrainian or American-Ukrainian? PH: I think they would say Ukrainian also. Of course, American-Ukrainian, you know. Yeah, I think they would. AD: So that is still, that is really important; that it is still continuing that– HD: Did your children marry Ukrainians? PH: No. Pam married an Irish man. Actually, when they came back to this area, they came back here. They continued dancing in their adult lives, Bill was Irish and he did Ukrainian dancing, you know. HD: Especially there is a lot of work for the men– PH: I remember singing at Robinson and putting on, not only the singing, you know the choir, but also, they were dancing and both Pam and Bill were dancing at the time there, so yeah. That is Pam; Mark married a redneck from West Virginia [all laugh]. And they still talk to it; she was from Pittsburgh, West Virginia. One red light in the whole town, okay, so we went into this one establishment. There a restaurant and I think they still talk about it, you know. Yeah, that was quite a party. It was interesting because Mark likes to do things unusual too, so when we had the dinner, you know after the ceremony and everything in this one building we found an old black coffin. So, we put Mark in the coffin and carried him in for the dance. HD: Wow! [laughs] PH: Yeah, opened up the coffin and he comes back out and… [laughs] that was a fun time. That was Mark, let us see. The next one would be Jeff who married a Slovak girl from, actually, no she was from Saint Michael’s. That is right. So, she was Slovak Russian I think. And Next one is Nicole she married the Massapequa Park so, and then Christie married the Italian boy from, they are both Italian boys from Massapequa Park. And Peter married a nice girl from Vestal. So– HD: But all their spouses what is interesting if I understand correctly they all participate in Ukrainian traditions? PH: Yeah, all of four peter’s kids they live about three houses up from us, are all dancers now. They are in that book, so, it is great. AD: That is wonderful. So how did you get interested in working with these– PH: Family history? AD: Family, yeah– PH: One of our friends I grew up with was George Stasko left a church after he got married. He did a family history on his family. They had twelve kids in the family. So, you know that was a nice book, I said boy that was a great idea, you know, I am going to do that with my family and I think for the church it would be super. So that is how it started. And I think it started like about I do not know, 19 2011 is when I first got the idea to do it. And we had about fifty families, and these are the families that we have right here, you know and who I gave the books to and everything else. So, but you know we get a few more. I got one from a gal who used to be a dancer in Saint John’s Paticarium; got married and moved out of the area and they are in South Carolina or Virginia someplace like that. She sent back a book, and just recently her husband had some cancer problems and things so, she wanted to get the book back, you know, and she actually she gave it to me to begin with so, I had to copy that whole book [laughs] and you know send back the original to her. So, you know, but that was… but she said is it okay if I, you know keep the copy and everything, she said yeah that would be fine. So– HD: It also looks like you have been doing research into your own family history. PH: I am sorry? HD: It also looks like you have done a lot of researching into your own family? PH: Actually, what happened, Zenon … was instrumental in this? Each year he gives a speech in New York city, they have a seminar, it is all week long in the evenings and everything, and he talked about you know whatever is interesting at that time but one of the people from Poland came over and gave a talk on Ulychne. So, after the program he went up to her and he said you know our church has a lot of people from Ulychne, and she started crying. She was so happy to hear that, you know, so because that was her job in a Polish, I think she works for the Polish government. She is checking on all those people that came over during that time and everything so, I got her name. I emailed her and did not hear anything. About three months later I get a call and it is this Eric and I do not know I cannot remember the last name, it is a good Polish name called me and he… Phyllis would not let him talk to me. And then he says well I want to talk about Ulychne. So as soon as he heard that name I got on the phone. We talked for about an hour at least you know, and he said he wants to start a website on Ulychne and he heard that I was doing you know of that people from our church came so I sent him all that information and everything you know and he did set up the site. www.ulychne.org and this is where I got these things from. And he went, and found both families like this. And I know my father had two brothers and one sister and I knew the sister was in Paris since then she has passed away which I did not really get a chance to talk to her. That is another story anyway but. So that is those are from Ulychne site right there. So, I did get all the rest of my father’s family and I got a lot of my mother’s family, and you know. HD: And is this site is in English, in Polish. PH: English and Polish. HD: Okay, excellent. PH: Yeah. HD: Excellent. So, do you have more questions? AD: No. PH: There is a couple of other things that I did. The timeline on our church with all the priests, the organization and the timeline from 1926 to the current thing. We I still have to finish the last page or so but that is all way up to our current father Evan. HD: And you keep, you mentioned several times father and Pani. PH: Lawryk. HD: You mentioned as someone a Pani Julia. Got it, okay. PH: Yeah, Pani Julia. That is there book over there I would know if you had a chance to look at it– HD: No, not yet. PH: I can pile that one. Right there. He was as close to the Saint as I will ever see. HD: Really? PH: Really, unbelievable. HD: Was he born here or in Ukraine? PH: Oh, that’s father Zolachetski. She has got the one Father Lark. HD: Was he born here? PH: No. I think he was born in Ukraine. His mother was an Obstetrician and he actually was in a Marine Corps before becoming a priest and I just like the front part here was one part but back here is, and this is Pani Lawryk actually. What is a priest is fantastic; I always put that in there. And that is what he wrote into one of our books and everything. But Pani, you know, after he passed away, she moved to Texas where there actually Minneapolis she moved to. Her daughter lived in Texas who passed away. She had an anemia type a thing. And died very early but she went to Minneapolis because that is where she was from and her brother was still out there and everything. And our whole family went to visit her, I been out to her couple of times visit her you know actually with my wife and then we were going to take the whole family for her birthday. So, we did, we all went there all our kids, you know and we came in and did not talk to her that evening. We got in there like, you know afternoon or evening. So, we were going to meet all the next day with her family. So, we were going to have a birthday party for her. She passed away that night. HD: Oh, wow. PH: And we did not know it until the next morning. So, we still went on with the party too you know. HD: You could still celebrate her life. PH: Yeah, that was tough. AD: You mentioned life story of a woman like you said 43, 50 pages long a story right at the beginning of the interview, you were talking about somebody and then you said– HD: They brought up their story. AD: –Am I exaggerating the page numbers? PH: Oh, this is the… no…. Pani Lawryk interviewed her mom while she was still alive. AD: Okay, yeah. PH: And she was born in 1904 and it is in that book, the biography… That is fantastic; I mean it tells how she lived and how they lived in those days and everything. HD: So, I am looking at this book, just looking at the images from father and Pani they seem very charismatic. PH: What? HD: Very charismatic. PH: Yeah. HD: You know a lot of energy. She is very striking actually. AD: She is like an actress, right? HD: Yeah. PH: She was a great dancer too. Yeah. HD: So, we should stop the… Thank you, I want to thank you so much– PH: Okay no problem. AD: Thank you so much. HD: That was really wonderful. PH: Yeah. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian Americans; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora; Vestal (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian folk dancing Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Hatala Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hatala, Peter ; DeHaan, Heather ; de Rouen, Aynur Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Hatala.WAV Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 81:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60cec59d770b9c91884d40fe45451305.mp3 52dee783fe7c9670de20d8714300c9ea https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c63da288c8182b8d15396fff51ce06c.jpg c27841adc89d3cb54993eab65248cea4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2017-11-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephen Norman Weiss Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in Tenafly, NJ; Harpur College – Alumni working in New York City. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Stephen Norman Weiss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 27 November 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:03 All right, okay, so for the record, this is Irene Gashurov interviewing Steve Weis. Steve, can you tell me your name, your age and who you are? SW: 00:23 Okay, my name is Stephen Weiss. I am 72 years old. I am a man. I graduated at Harpur College in October 1966 but I am officially the class of June 1967. I am a lawyer. I practice patent litigation and international law in New York City, and I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I have a wife and four children and five grandchildren, and what else about me? That is who I am. IG: 01:01 Um, that is fine. That is [crosstalk] SW: 01:03 Tenafly, New Jersey. IG: 01:04 Okay, so where did you grow up? SW: 01:06 I was born in Bronx County, New York City, in 1945. I go- I-I grew up in, oh, I was I live- We lived in the Bronx until March 1958. My first memory, big memory of the Bronx, was coming home from elementary school, and there was a block party going on, celebrating the death of Joe McCarthy and the whole street and- It was fabulous. 815 Fairmount Place. You can actually find that in Google, but that is where I lived, and there was a big block party, and I was wondering what was going on, and they were all celebrating that someone had died, which was odd to a kid, but um the person that died was Joe McCarthy. So I lived, we lived there, and my sister, myself and my parents lived there until March (19)58 and then we moved to Flushing, Queens, and we lived there until- I lived there until June (19)63 when I left to go to college. I went to high school at Brooklyn Technical High School, which was in Brooklyn, New York, so I had to commute to high school, and there I studied engineering. I know I never became an engineer, and that is probably good, because the bridges and tunnels in New York City that stand today probably would not be there if I went for engineering. [laughs] So then I start- when I applied to Harpur College, at the time, there were two financial programs that made college free for me. I do not know if they still exist. One, you had to take a test for. It was called the Regent scholarship. And if you were a resident of the state of New York, you took a test, and I do not know a certain grade gave you the scholarship, and otherwise you did not get it. And so I got that. And then there was another program called the Scholar Incentive Award, and that was given to all residents of the state of New York, so if you had both, then basically went to college for free. And which is what I did, went to college basically, I mean, there was, there was, like a nominal fee, but I did not pay for dormitory. There was a meal plan, and of course, there was tuition. I paid for books. That was it. And at- when I got accepted to Harpur College, there was no state univ- there was a State University of New York system, but Harpur College was known as Harpur College. It was, was not, was not known as SUNY Binghamton. It was not, I do not know if it was part of SUNY Binghamton or not, but the sign was Harpur College. The acceptance documents which are going to donate to you say Harpur College. And they were just starting the trimester program. My class was the first class that had the opportunity to go in July of (19)63 I wanted to get out of my house as soon as possible, so I opted to go right after I graduated high school to go to college. So that is my background leading up to college. IG: 04:20 Yeah-yeah. so what I am just will return to Binghamton University, and I am very interested to learn what you knew of Harpur College at the time that you applied. SW: 04:37 They- there was no Internet, there was no email, the- we had a guidance counselor at the Brooklyn Tech. And at the time, if you went to school in the one of the New York City High Schools, because my sister went to music and art in New York City, what they would tell you is that you could apply to and I remember three or four colleges, period. I mean, you could not pay that. You could not apply to more, even if you wanted to. I think if you were rejected, you could get another application. But I know people, I know I have four kids and they, I know what they did, but I probably spent more in college applications than people spent on tuition back then, but, but then you could not do that, and one of the applications had to go to the city university system, which was city CCNY, Queens College, Brooklyn, you had to apply to one of them. So that left you with three. And then the guidance counselor said, Well, there was, there was a, he called it a new college. I guess it was not new. Was not was I do not think it was new. It was fairly new because it had been someplace else. Had been Vestal, I think, and they recently moved to the Binghamton just a few years before I started. I think, I think, I am not sure. So he gave me this brochure on Harpur College, and it was a liberal arts college, and I did not want to go into engineering. I want to want the liberal arts, because I like the literature. I like learning various subjects that it want to be, you know, science and engineering. So that was a liberal arts college, and I do not remember. Oh, I know where else I applied. I applied to Oberlin. Oberlin, Ohio. So Oberlin College, and I do not remember if I got in or not, but I mean, I went to gone there for free, then I could not afford it, and I applied to one more, and I did not want to go to the city colleges, because I had to get out. I had to get out. I was very highly motivated to get away for reasons that I will go into so I remember, I remember it was a green brochure, and it just, I just remember, I remember the brochure, it was green, it was like four pages, and it just described the liberal arts education. And so it intrigued me. Now, we did not visit colleges. Then the way, you know, as I said, with my four kids. I mean, I spent money. We flew all over, we flew to Michigan, we flew out to everywhere you can, you name it. We visited with four kids. As I said, on airfare and applications, I spent more than college tuition, but then you did not visit. So CCNY I knew because was in the city, Oberlin. I never visited. I just knew from the brochure the other college that I applied to, I do not even remember, and I did not visit Harpur so but that was the only university that, other than CCNY, that I applied to, where I could use the Regent scholarship and the incentive program. So it was liberal arts, and it just looked interesting, so that is why I applied there. But there was no visiting, no interviews, nothing. IG: 07:55 Let us just backtrack. Um-um, tell me what your parents did for a living, and how many were you in your family? SW: 08:11 My father worked for the state of New York as a tax examiner, and also had a second job selling insurance. He did that for my home, and my mother was a clerk or secretary for the Department of Buildings for the city of New York. And my sister, who is seven years older than I, she actually got married when I was 13 and became and finished the last two years of college, being married and she became a teacher. So she moved out in (19)58 she moved out the year that we left the Bronx and moved to Flushing. IG: 08:52 So did your parents value education, and did they see that education as a vehicle of to a better life. What was their attitude? SW: 09:06 I want to be totally honest [crosstalk]. IG: 09:07 Yes. SW: 09:08 Okay, well, I came from a dysfunctional family, okay, my parents really did not get along, just one of the reasons I had to get out, and that is one of the reasons that my sister left in (19)58 and she got married. She was sophomore in college. She just had to get out. So it was a very difficult childhood, and that is one of the reasons I went to wanted to go to Brooklyn Tech to just to get away. So I commuted to high school. I did not want to go to my local high school. I took a test, and in Brooklyn Tech, you could start in the ninth grade, Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, you had to start the 10th grade, and I wanted to get out. So my mother, neither of my parents went to college, but my mother was-was more encouraging. My father, I actually had to forge his name on the consent form to go to Brooklyn Tech, but my mother helped me out, you know, when she could. So my mother valued education. Now my-my mother's brother, he was actually dean of the graduate school at CCNY during the (19)60s. His name is Oscar, was- is Oscar Zeichner, z, e, i, c, h, n, er, and my mother's maiden name is Zeichner. So his family was also dysfunctional. I do not want to fame my uncle, but he was, he was dean there, and they wrote history book, and so he obviously highly educated, PhD. So my mother valued education, my father, I mean, I did not really, I mean, would not really talk that much. So I do not know what, what he valued, but I always thought. I always knew I would go to college. I do not know why I knew, but I knew I would get actually, ever since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, I have, like, I have some stuff from my childhood, like, like, old, autographed books in the sixth grade. You know, it starts off go little album far and near to all the friends I hold so dear, and tell them each to write a page that I might read in my old age. So now I am 72 I went back and looked at it when I was in the third grade. I wanted to be a lawyer. I do not know why, because I did not know any lawyers. No one in my family was a lawyer, but I wanted to be a lawyer. [laughs] so, so I knew I was going to get a higher education. I never doubted it, and that is not because of parental encouragement or anything. IG: 11:50 But it if not parental encouragement. Do you think that the encouragement came from your teachers and maybe your [crosstalk] SW: 11:57 I think everyone- IG: 11:58 -your, um- SW: 11:59 I am sorry. IG: 12:00 Yeah. SW: 12:01 -everyone in my neighborhood was expected to go to college. I mean, I was brought up in a Jewish neighborhood in the Bronx, and everyone there was expected. It was just like you were expected to go to kindergarten and expected to go from the sixth grade to the seventh grade- IG: 12:18 Right. Yeah. SW: 12:19 I mean, it was just-just understood that that would happen as natural as, you know, as guys going as eating dinner, We just understood that you would go to college. I do not know anyone who did not expect to go to college in the group of people that I grew up with. I mean, it just was, I do not know anyone who just thought of getting a job, or thought of enlisting in the military or thought of going becoming a technician, everyone that I knew, every page in my year, in my elementary school where they signed the autograph book. They all talked to talk about college. IG: 12:23 Right. So was that- was the culture [crosstalk] SW: 12:32 It was the environment, was the entire environment. Was the public, the most unbelievable public-school system. IG: 13:01 Yes. SW: 13:02 I read in high school. I read The Rubaiyat. I read, I read Heart of Darkness in high school. I mean, I mean, I remember, I remember, I remember poems I read in the in junior high, I remember reading John Green Whittier. Do you familiar with that? No. Do you know that? IG: 13:22 No. Third speaker: 13:22 Yeah. SW: 13:23 The Maud Muller, it says, "of all the words of tongue and pan the sad a star it might have been." I still remember that this elementary school would do a sixth grade. So it was the public-school system was unbelievable at that time, I mean, in my neighborhood, Jonas Salk, who had the polio vaccine. He went to my Junior High School in the Bronx, yeah. It was just-just unbelievable public education. IG: 13:37 Right. Right. SW: 13:53 So it was just expected. IG: 13:56 So when you arrived to Harpur College, what-what did the campus look like? You know, was it a culture shock for you to come from the city. SW: 14:10 No. IG: 14:10 And end up in the- SW: 14:12 The country. IG: 14:13 -in the country. Yes, SW: 14:14 No, it was not. I do not know why. It really was not. I mean, it just-just, I cannot explain it. I said, no, like, like zelig, like a chameleon. Third speaker: 14:26 Do you want to draw that for us? IG: 14:26 Yeah. SW: 14:26 Just, I just-just changed. I mean, I just, all of a sudden, I was a college student. I remember very early on there was, there were tables in the student center. Now, if you drove up to center drive, there was a, like, a like a circle, like you would drive up to center drive, you made a left, and you went around a circle, and there was the student center right in front, and there was an Esplanade, you know, an elevated walkway. I have a movie of it which I am going to email you. You see it there? I guess I could draw it. Yeah, I am not a good artist, but, but, but that is where the bus pulled up with that video I showed you. But anyway, in that building I remember, let us see, there was a bookstore, and there was some rooms, hold on, in the back and to the right, where we used to where we had meetings, including SDS [Students for a Democratic Society], but the date that within the day or two after you got there, there was not a formal orientation. There was a letter I got from an advisor which I gave you, which is in that folder. IG: 15:34 Right. SW: 15:34 That was my orientation. He met me. IG: 15:37 Right. SW: 15:37 And-and in there-there were tables, and there was the debate society, which I joined immediately. And the coach was Dr. Eugene Vasilew. And there was a thing called services for youth, which worked with poor children in the Binghamton area. So that intrigued me, so I joined that there were tables, and you would go to the table, and there was a pad and-and there were people who were in that group, and they would talk to you about it, and you could sign your name. IG: 16:11 Why did the opportunity of working with poor children in the neighborhood intrigue you? Was that part of your upbringing? SW: 16:20 I probably identified with them. IG: 16:22 Yeah. SW: 16:22 I mean, I would have to go through analysis the real reason, which I am not going to do, but-but probably, you know, probably I identified with them. IG: 16:34 So, do you think that there was a lot of outreach that Harpur College did to the community. Do you think that it, it had strong ties to the community? SW: 16:45 Right. I think so. Yeah, and they really, they made you feel welcome. I mean, they made me it was a very small school. I mean, when I visited it in October for the 50th, my 50th Homecoming was very- it was large. There was like, I saw those separate communities they called the College in the Woods. I think they called. IG: 17:04 Right. SW: 17:05 That did not exist. None of that existed. There was Harpur College, there was, there was, let us say, Champlain Hall. There was a building to the left of that. There were, like, just a few dorms who basically knew, I think that the cornerstone said (19)58 or (19)59 and I entered (19)63 I mean, some, some of them were being built. Then in the back there was a dawn being built called Chenango, it was not built yet. I moved in there in my third year as the first tenant. I mean, the first student. So you felt like it was a very small community. And at least those of us who entered in July knew everyone IG: 17:06 Right-right. SW: 17:07 Now that changed, because I could talk about trimester, but in that first going there, there was no-no one was there before us, because we were the first trimester. So there were, there were, you know, that was it. Everyone was started [crosstalk] IG: 18:05 You were really the path breakers. SW: 18:07 Yes, yeah, right. There were sophomores and juniors. I mean, people who were in the by- the two-semester system. Obviously, some of them opted to take the next semester starting July, but, but it was very small, so you sort of got to know everybody. So you really felt, I mean, you felt welcome. You- professors had us over it. One of the videos that I am going to email you, that I showed you was, Dr. Vasilew having us over at his house for barbecue. Dr. Carlip [Alfred Benjamin Carlip], he was an economics professor. I do not know if this name anything mean anything to you. He was chairman of the economics department, C, A, R, L, i, p, he had us over to his house. Dr Kadish [Gerald Kadish], he- Third speaker: 18:52 He is still there. SW: 18:53 Taught. He taught history. Third speaker: 18:54 He is still teaching. SW: 18:56 Really? He is still teaching. I have a picture. I have to send it to- it is in my basement. I got to find it. He, he came in my last year, the last semester I had an apartment in Vestal, right near the Vestal High School. So we had an anti-war meeting there, and he came, and I have a picture of him there with his wife, who I learned he divorced a few years after that. May have remarried, but he was a specialist in Egyptian- Third speaker: 19:25 That wife died, so it is, but he is, he is good. SW: 19:29 Really? He is what Egyptians are still specialized in Egyptian history. Third speaker: 19:33 Ancient. SW: 19:35 Ancient history. Yeah, right-right, conversational hieroglyphics. I am joking, but yeah, but yeah, so he is still, he is really teaching. Third speaker 19:43 And very sound, yeah. SW: 19:48 Well, he was young. He was young. I mean, I am 72 and he is maybe 10 years older than me. So he must, he must be in his 80s. Yeah-yeah. Third speaker: 19:53 Maybe even more. I mean, he is old, but he is still functioning. SW: 20:01 That is cool, huh? I value would have known that I would have looked for him at the October reunion. He would have remembered me because he came to, we had anti-war meetings in my in my apartment, he came, he came to a few of them. He came with his wife, the one that he divorced anyway. So, yes, so-so it was very welcoming, warm atmosphere, inclusive. IG: 20:26 And it is, it is very unusual that you had that much interaction with faculty being at a public university, because you would expect that, you know, from a Princeton or- SW: 20:37 Right. Right. IG: 20:40 -something like that, where there is very close interaction. SW: 20:43 Yeah. I saw that that in Columbia, yeah, but that was different. IG: 20:47 Yeah. SW: 20:47 But the but the thing is actually the movie that I showed you at Dr Vasilew's house, I am playing ball with his son. He is like, a five-year-old son, or something, six-year-old. You know, you just felt like, all of a sudden, my dysfunctional family that I grew up with became a functional, welcoming family at this college. It was really- IG: 21:09 It is wonderful. SW: 21:10 -totally different experience. Yeah, I do not know if I did not get that feeling when I was there and October, but I mean, it is only there for a day there, and it seemed much bigger. IG: 21:21 Did your parents visit you? Or did you visit them during your years at [crosstalk] SW: 21:28 My parents, my parents split. My mother said she was [inaudible] She always told me she was going to wait until I graduate high school. Oh, she should not have, but she did, because my father was a little bit nuts, but uh, but um, but they did. But actually, my father and sister came up with me when I went to college in July. I am trying to think how we got up there. We must have taken the Greyhound bus and Port Authority. That is how we got up there. They came up there, and then right across Vestal Parkway, there was a hotel, which is nothing, and then, but they were there for days. So they came up there. My father was not there again. He actually died the following year. I came home, I actually found his body in the bathroom. So, because he was living alone and my mother was living alone, they split. So I came home. I remember, I know why I came home, because I was campaigning for Robert Kennedy for Senate. So I came home in the in October. That was the end of October. Election Day was November, something November 3. And my father died November 1, so he wanted me to stay in his apartment, but I would not, and I came there, and I have had him dead in the floor. So that is sort of guilt. My mother did visit me, actually. She came up a few times, and I would, I would come back here. I would take the train and I came back here. So I would, I would, you know, stay by my mother's place or friends. So I would come. IG: 23:11 Hello. SW: 23:13 Hi, Mary. I am being interviewed. IG: 23:19 Yeah SW: 23:20 I am famous. IG: 23:22 So, I mean, I think I know the answer, but tell us how you-you felt about the Vietnam War at that time. SW: 23:33 Okay. I was against it. There are many, many reasons why somehow was selfish. I mean, we had the draft so that the-the (19)60s are often romanticized by the music and, you know, free love and all that, but there was a pervasive anxiety, because, you are killed. What do you do? You go to jail, go to Canada, maybe never come back. You go in and who knows what is going to happen to you. So there were many reasons why I was against at first, I read a lot and just seemed stupid. I mean, the one seemed stupid, it was no reason for it later on. I mean, if you saw the series on TV, I mean, they lied to us, but it was obvious then that they lied. And you could see, well, I could tell that there was, I can tell the guy's name because I did not like him, Irwin Romana. He was a student up there, and his family had money, so he hired a draft lawyer. So if you had money, you could manipulate the system. I remember his initial. He told me the initial. I said, you have a lawyer. And I remember. This conversation. He said, Yeah, is it expensive? He said, Well, the first visit is $1,000 you know, that was more than college for me for four years. So, but anyway, so it was unfair, it did and it was scary, and there was no justification for it. So, and we studied. I do not know if you, I do not know. Do you have any economic background? IG: 25:29 Well, I have read. SW: 25:30 Okay, so you see if we soon. You know the Mont Pèlerin Society, the what Pèlerin Society? You know the Mont Pèlerin Society? Okay, well, just go into this, because I was [crosstalk] okay. So-so at the end of World War Two, I think Mont Pèlerin was (19)46 I think you remember, yeah, so at the end of World War Two, there were a group of economists who were shocked at what happened with strong centralized government. I mean, in Germany, the strong centralized government gave us, obviously, Nazis. And strong centralized government in Italy was Mussolini, the strong centralized government in Russia was Stalin, and the strong centralized government in Japan was Tojo, Hirohito. And the strong centralized government in the US was created by the New Deal and Franklin Roosevelt. There was big difference between the New Deal and fascism, but it was a strong central government, so they were frightened as to what was going to happen now, as Europe is about to be rebuilt, and how do we deal with the reemergence of strong central governments, how do we fight against it? So they had this meeting in Mont Pèlerin. It was in Switzerland. I think I do not remember you remember more better, more than I do, but and they discussed how to get rid of it. And of course, at that time, the only two strong central governments, was America based on capitalism and the Soviet Union. So they were petrified of the Soviet Union and communism, and they wanted America to become more capitalistic, and they wanted to get rid of a lot of the New Deal elements, which was strong centralized government like Social Security and TVA and all the things that Roosevelt did that they just did not want it so but the big fear was the Soviet Union and communism. And out of that, they broke their promise to, you know, to Ho Chi Minh, that Roosevelt made, that if you help, you will help you fight the Japanese and everything else, because, first of all, died and so anyway, so I was familiar with all that. So that that because I studied economics, and I could tell the teacher that taught it to me, Dr Melville, he was a professor at Harpur College, and they really went into things that, I do not know if they go into it now, but do they teach about the Mont Pèlerin now, I do not know. IG: 25:42 Yes, absolutely. Third speaker: 28:04 I am sure they do. SW: 28:05 Yeah, but so-so-so I was, there were many reasons where I was against Vietnam. So there was a selfish reason the draft, there was the pervasive anxiety that, as time went on, all my friends felt, and we had Dylan playing for the dorms. I mean, I remember, but that was nice and-and we had, you know, lots of sex and other things that were fun, but there was a pervasive anxiety that we were always, you were scared. So since I was against it scary, very scary time. And then we had friends who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement, that there were people from, I guess you know that I think one was not the kids killed going down to one of the marches. I think, I think in (19)65 and I was a sophomore, I think, I think one of the students was killed down south. I did not get the only March I went on South was I went to DC, but I did not, I did not go to the I did not go all the way down south, but I think one of the kids that went down, they got hurt and killed. So there was the Civil Rights Movement. Then scary. IG: 29:16 When, when did you kind of become open to politics and the, you know, the American, American scene, and so engaged, was it because of your of the threat of being enlisted in the in the war, or what made you so alive to the political scene? SW: 29:41 Well, part of it was, we all, were- IG: 29:43 You all were- SW: 29:44 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was not there. Was this was not the this was the small group, maybe a small group joined SDS. That was not the only thing that was there. There was- IG: 29:54 I mean, did it, did it happen on campus, or did it happen before coming? Your Harpur college- SW: 30:00 I think it really evolved. It really got strong on campus. Yeah, not before first of before I was on campus, there was a lot of promise with Kennedy and the I did not know that he actually but he actually did not get I did not know that that, but no in high school, I mean, Kennedy was elected in November (19)60 I was in high school, and he was not killed until I was in college. And he was very popular with young people. One of the things I am giving you that Kennedy book I got the Hobb Bookstore, yeah, extremely popular. He was young. He was funny. And, you know, you got us, there was Bay of Pigs, and he admitted it was his fault. You know, he seemed, you know, almost like truancy. The buck stops here. I mean, he seemed honest so, and he said, I am a liberal and proud of it when people do not say that anymore. So, so through my high school years, when, before I went to college, I mean, I was really, you know, I was proud to be an American. Still, I am still thinking America is best country, you know, it is just that we have to do something about it. IG: 31:15 Right. SW: 31:15 But-but I was really felt the American pride. And then was after he was killed, the things started, you know, then, you know, it just like, like, shocked when he was killed, the chain, it changed a lot. And when Johnson came in, because we, you know, there were these theories, was he involved? And I am sure he was not, but, but then things started to jail. So Harpur College really happened. IG: 31:47 So tell us what your involvement in student activism was like, student protest or activism, and what that that scene was [crosstalk] SW: 31:56 Okay. So when it was still a very small college where in November (19)63 when he was killed. And through my through my years, there was that. There was not, if these other colleges did not exist, even when I graduated, there was no it was still small. It was bigger, but still small. And everyone, and everyone I knew was involved, it was not unique. It was not like the young democrats and young republicans, and they may have been stuff like that, but, you know, it was more focused. There was a group really focused on the Martin Luther King and on the south and, you know, and I remember, like we talked about, we talked we mentioned this, this, this country as good as it is, was a country where half of the country fought for the right of one human being to own another. Civil War was it was a war where someone fought for the right to own another person. So he was not with that, and obviously it was a long way uphill. So, so there was, there was, to some extent, there was separate. The SDS was both, was both was divert for a minute. One of the things that SDS fought for was ending the student curfew. You know about the student curfew? IG: 33:22 Yes, that is another thing that I will- SW: 33:24 That was one of the, one of the first things, the first time I went to a meeting, which was in the old student center under the Esplanade, one of the first things they talked about was the curfew. Because if you were a female, you had to have you did not get a key. They locked the door. I do not remember what time it was during the week. It was one certain time, and then then on the Friday night and Saturday night, it was a little bit later, but it was still they locked it. Now they did not lock my door, only the woman's dorm. So SDS, one of the first things that we did was to fight against the curfew. When we had petitions, we sent it around. These the mailboxes were. They were not in the student center. There was a building, so I do not remember what the mailboxes were. I remember I was box 38 Harpur College, but I do not remember where they were. You used to there was a, I think was a combination. I do not remember, but they would, we would stuff these petitions in the mailbox that in the curfew that was when big things that SDS did was fight for that. Because I remember I went out with this girl, and we got back late, and she was locked out and she was suspended, and nothing happened to me. Nothing. I mean, I nothing happened to me. Yeah, we felt horrible. IG: 34:48 It is. SW: 34:50 I felt horrible. I mean, we did not go to bed together. We just-just thought we would just, there was this hill that led to the gym. The gym was down here with the students was here; it was like a hill, and it was sitting on the hill and talking just and we went back and it was locked. IG: 35:07 Yeah. SW: 35:09 Now if you but if you were 21 you got a key. So if you were, like a junior or senior, and you were 21 years old, you did not have the curfew for a female. So-so-so that was one of the things we did. IG: 35:22 For a woman, for female and-and [crosstalk] SW: 35:25 Men did not need a key. I mean, there was no [crosstalk] IG: 35:27 Female after 21 they did not need a key. SW: 35:30 They did not need the kid. No, they got a key. I am sorry they did not get locked out. In other words, you could not get into the dorm after they locked unless you had a key. Was a little, you know, [inaudible] regular key. Yeah, so, but you got the key if you were 21 so, um, but you could drink when you were 18. So you get drunk. Mr. Curfew, get suspended. So, but you could not vote. Can vote in 21, but anyway, so that was one of the things that they were for. But then we talked about the war, the draft, one of the things that we did in, I forget which year it was, we had an intense debate about the Selective Service Exam. You are familiar with that? IG: 36:21 I do not think so. SW: 36:22 Okay, I forget when, what year was, when I was a sophomore or junior. I Think, I think Junior, it does not really matter. But Johnson, if you were in college, you were deferred from the draft, you had to register when you were 18 with your local board, and then if you were in school, you had what was known as a 2s which was a student deferment. But what Johnson did was, what was have a test, because he said that they wanted more manpower in the army, they wanted less student deferments, so they-they gave a test in the spring of the academic year, and the test was to select an exam just the general like, like a College Board test, like ETs and-and the test was being given in the gym, and there was only one gym, and you went down this, the main road of down this hill, and to the right there was a gym. And in the gym, they set up chairs, and they had this exam. So we were debated. We were against the exam, but then some of us said, “Well, look, you know, it is fine to be against the exam and not take it,” but what if they actually use this exam for the student deferment would be deprived if we, if we prevented other students from taking it, would we be giving them a ticket to Vietnam, getting rid of the 2s so they were back and forth, and anyway, it went the way the pro- We decided to protest it anyway and tell people not to take it. I did not take it. I did not take the test, but that was the decision I made for myself, but we wanted to make the decision for everyone else, so that was the debate. And debate was that we were going to make the decision for everyone else, not let them take it. But we never did that. But I remember we wanted to do that, but we did not. so. So it was not the homework. It was not, you know, everyone did not agree with every you know, it was not like- IG: 38:26 How many were you? How many were you in the SDS? SW: 38:32 Not a lot. IG: 38:34 100? SW: 38:35 No-no-no. Not the whole, the whole, no, 40, 50, maybe less, maybe less. We did not come to we did not come to meetings. Some people signed up. But-one of the reasons I signed up, there was a very attractive girl who said, you should because I was active. I mean, I did make my political views known. This is very attractive girl who came up to me says, Why did not you, why do not you go to an SDS meeting? And that is why I went for the first one. IG: 39:16 Well, it is a good enough reason. SW: 39:19 Yeah, but-but, I mean, most meetings, then they are not that many people. It would be, I mean, there may be 50 total in the whole thing, but there were, you know, maybe 10, 20, would come, maybe 10 would come. But we were active, like we got these petitions for the for the-in the curfew, we tried to block the-the Selective Service Exam, we-we put up the posters. Did you ever see the poster? Girls say yes, the boys who say no. IG: 39:59 No-no. That is, that is funny. So there were, were they? Were there females in SDS? SW: 40:07 Of course. IG: 40:08 Of course, yes. SW: 40:09 Yeah-yeah-yeah. IG: 40:15 Very funny. SW: 40:15 Sponsored there by the protest against the army. We put them up in dormitories. And we actually encouraged, for selfish region- reasons, also, we actually encouraged women to, you know, support the anti-war movement by, you know, free love, just-just, you know, resist the draft, go to go to a protest, and we will get sex. I am not kidding. That is, that was one of the things we talked about, you know, just-just doing that. There was no aids, there was none of that stuff there. IG: 40:53 Or it was not known about. SW: 40:54 It was known about, I do not think there was, was there back in the (19)60s. No, I do not know. It does not really matter, but that is what happened. So, you know, experimented. I mean, we were not the same, like the SDS started in Wisconsin with the Port Huron manifesto statement, you know. IG: 41:15 How were you different? SW: 41:17 Because we were not really part of, like, like a fraternity, like a national group, and we did not really get involved with them. IG: 41:23 Right. SW: 41:24 You know, there was not like a, it was not the it was not a unified thing. It was not like a, was not like the Democratic party with a Democratic National Committee. There was the Port Huron statement, and they probably did have involvement at Columbia, where they had the student strikes. CCNY had student strikes in the in the Lewisohn Stadium, I think was called [crosstalk]But we were a very small school and-and we did not, we did not have much to do with any national, any other-other SDS. We were basically contained. IG: 42:00 But you got your messages. SW: 42:03 Yeah. IG: 42:03 Platform- SW: 42:04 Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, we did. We did communicate, yeah. We did communicate it, but we did not get Yeah. IG: 42:08 And how did you communicate with them? With-with-with central [crosstalk] SW: 42:15 Yeah-yeah, no. IG: 42:16 So what was [crosstalk] SW: 42:19 We got brochures from them. I remember getting box, a box of brochures. We got a box of those posters girls, you know, things like that. IG: 42:27 That is interesting. SW: 42:28 -to put up on the wall. IG: 42:31 So we touched on this a little describe to me what your- the social scene was at Harpur College. Was it a party school? What is it? What did it have a reputation of being a party school at the time? SW: 42:46 No, did not. IG: 42:46 It did not. SW: 42:47 It was and it was serious. It was serious. Was serious, but it was fun. there- was it was fun. It was not fun because we know it got drunk or anything like that. First of all, you only have to be 18 to drink, so it was no big deal. I mean, you know, I drank when I could get a drink when I graduated high school, but legally, no bar. I mean, it is, you know, there was a we did not get drunk when, I guess we did sometimes, but it was not, it was not the big thing. No, it was not, was not the party school. We had fun. We had, we had, I remember seeing the Beach Boys at was not there. We went up. I remember a group of us went up to Ithaca, the Cornell, The Beach Boys performed. I remember seeing the [inaudible] Erin Quartet. IG: 42:56 Yeah, Oh, yes, they are still around. SW: 43:35 They are? Third speaker 43:36 I have a question, what were you doing? Like, other than attending classes, like when you are not going to school, or during the weekend? What were the like- Some of the activities? IG: 43:36 Yes. SW: 43:36 They were in residence, I think so, yeah, in Binghamton. So they- we- I remember seeing the great, great they had great entertainment that we saw. What is his name, if you have Max Morath. He did Ragtime. Did a show there. It was very crowded. Did that. It was, it was a lot of fun, you know, this, you know, other than the pervasive fear that we had with the war lingering over us when we graduated, it was, it was a lot of fun. There was, there was, you know, no, it was not, was not the party school. No serious students. We took academia seriously. We took politics seriously, and close relationships. And there was, there was, like, free love, but, you know, but that was pervasive. I think then, maybe now too, I do not know. Well, I was on the debate team, so we traveled to various schools like you saw that thing from. Lehigh University. We traveled to New York City. We stayed at a hotel on the Grand Concourse, concourse Plaza Hotel where the Yankees stayed. We actually had the first- where they had one of the first UN meetings there at the concourse Plaza. So we traveled. So I was the debate team. I was on services for youth, where we work with poor children in Binghamton, I was in SDS. We did. We went with the brochures rallies. We encouraged people to protest. A group of a group of them organized a bus to the south, I did not go. I do not remember, I do not remember where the dream. I thought that someone got killed, but I am not sure it was my house, school, or someone who went along. Yeah, I did not go this. I cannot think what happened. I did go to Washington, so we sponsored that. What else did I do? I worked. I worked in the in the Music Library, Music Library. IG: 46:08 that like, what did you do? SW: 46:12 We put on music. In other words, you would sit there, like, if you were taking music appreciation, you would sit there and put on headphones [crosstalk] and Beethoven's Ninth, and then we would, I would be in the control room, and I would put on a record with Beethoven's Ninth, and I would say, plug it to seat nine, right? There was no mp3, so things like that. So I worked there, and there was a language lab. What we do? You win, and then you put on headphones and you listen to German or Russian, yeah, and you would repeat. They would say, you know, guten tag, guten tag. So some people work there, but I remember working in the music. I had another job one of the summers I was up there driving a tractor on a golf course. I got paid $8 an hour, which is a lot then. IG: 46:19 Yeah, I remember yeah music library [crosstalk] it was, it was probably a lot in in certain parts of the country. SW: 47:07 Yeah-yeah, so that is one thing [crosstalk] IG: 47:09 So were you self-sufficient, pretty much with your scholarship and the money that you earned from part time jobs? Or- SW: 47:17 Yeah-yeah. IG: 47:17 It is tremendous. SW: 47:17 Yeah. Had to be. IG: 47:17 You had to be. SW: 47:21 Yeah. Yeah. I also, once, one summer, I worked in the I came back and I mother had my mother lived in the Bronx. My father already died, and I worked in the New York Public Library, actually, oh yes, from [inadible]. You know what I found them, I could bring it down later, I found the letter that I wrote saying, I think I am going to go into politics, to the person in the library on Harpur stationary. I will give it to you. I will give with the stuff. When we are finished, I will bring it down. IG: 47:53 Yeah. Was this is [crosstalk] SW: 47:58 I never went into politics. I never did. IG: 48:00 No-no speaking about politics, was there recruitment for the war on campus? SW: 48:05 No, that is not that I remember, I- IG: 48:09 -not that you remember. So do you think that that was unusual for because of the constituency? SW: 48:16 We did not have ROTC. IG: 48:17 I see. SW: 48:18 I mean, other schools did. We did not. First of the school is too small. We never had it. We did not have France either. I mean that to their fraternities. Third speaker: 48:25 They have now. SW: 48:27 Do they do? We did not. We did not have them. We had no fraternities. We had, we had society. They had, I was not a member of it. There was a Greeks society, but it was not fraternities. I do not know what it was, because I It was not very big, it was not very popular, and I do not know anyone who was in it, so, but there was no recruitment. There was no ROTC there was [crosstalk]. Third speaker 48:28 Oh yeah. IG: 48:49 That-that answers the question. So what was residential life like? What did you do for entertainment? SW: 48:56 Well, there was, there was a TV in the lounge. There was only one TV, and it was in the lounges, black and white TV. The lounge was in the first floor. If you went into Champlain Hall, let us see. There were two dormitories that faced each other, Champlain, I think, and something else. IG: 49:15 Right. SW: 49:16 And the first semester was in the one on the left. I do not remember what a name of it was. And then the go at the-the entrance was, let us see, there was a walkway, and then the entrance was this way, perpendicular to the walkway, and go in, and you wind up in the lounge, and there was a TV there. I remember seeing Ed Sullivan seeing the Beatles. We all sat around. IG: 49:39 I remember that too. SW: 49:40 The Beatles is on the Sullivan show. Yeah, that is where we watch the Kennedy funeral, and everyone was crying. And go to the Student Center. We go to a place [inaudible], and we go to a place called Sharkies. They had something called spiedie. It was like something on a skewer. Yeah, I do not know what it was. Third speaker 50:08 They still have that. Not Sharkies I do not know but spiedies, chicken spiedies. SW: 50:09 Sharkies, yeah. I do not think it was chicken, I would not eat it now, but- Third speaker 50:16 Yeah. SW: 50:17 I do not know what it was. So we did things like that. We had these, the SDS, we had the other clubs. I mean, there was always something to do. It was always, you know, there was a theater. If you faced the student, if you went up to the main driveway, and then you went down the circular thing to the right, and the movie where you saw those me and my friend breaking into the window. There was a theater in that building, and they had entertainment there. It was, it was, was fun. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun, actually. IG: 50:51 So were you in a in a kind of a circle with a lot of girls as well? It was, there, were there sort of mixing of the girls, it was everybody went out together. Or did you go out in pairs? Or, I mean, where did you go? Like [crosstalk] SW: 51:08 When you went to Shark- when you went to Sharkies, would go- IG: 51:10 Yeah. SW: 51:13 -in- IG: 51:13 Yeah. SW: 51:14 Boys and girls would go. IG: 51:15 Yeah. SW: 51:16 The thing with the debate society. IG: 51:19 Yeah. SW: 51:20 Boys and girls would go, there was no coed dorm. SDS, boys and girls that the video I showed you at Vasilew's House you saw female students and male students. IG: 51:28 Yeah. SW: 51:30 Kadish, if you are asking, give Kadish my name and just home Stephen Weiss and in the apartment in Vestal and the anti-war meetings. I mean, if he is still there, he will remember that. And his first wife, because he came there, he used to use the bum there, yeah, yeah. And one of his, one of his best students, was the kid running for the bus with the little stick they said, is dead now. His name was David Lorden, remember the name? You mentioned that to Mr. Katie, Professor Katie, she remember him too, as we used to go, yeah. But then, no, that was coed. We used to do things. You know, sometimes we students was, I forgot the name of it. That is my senior moment with the kids what I said was- IG: 52:23 Well, how did the faculty regard your you know, social interactions your dating. Do they get involved in it? I mean, or rather the supervisors, were they kind of scrutinizing what you were doing after- SW: 52:42 What surprises? IG: 52:44 Did not you have RA resident assistance or any kind of supervision in your dorms? Because obviously there was somebody monitoring your comings and goings with the curfew, right? SW: 52:58 But we did not have a curfew. IG: 52:59 You did not have a curfew, but the girls did. SW: 53:01 Yeah, I do not know. I do not I have no idea what was in the girls, but in the men, let me just think we did. I am sorry. Third speaker: 53:09 Not curfew, but maybe like rules, that- SW: 53:12 There were rules, but let me just think there was a there was a woman almost like a den mother for the Cub Scouts. There was no there was an older woman who I do not know what her involvement was, I mean, do you know what I am talking about? There was some, there was a woman who was like, part of out from Champlain. She was, she was like the den mother- IG: 53:35 Maybe she was- SW: 53:36 -for Champlain. And this other dorm that was quite opposite, this walkway, no Champlain would be here. This other dorm was here, and the left one, I am indicating left and the right, lawyer talk, indicating, but uh, and there was this woman, no, she was not a resident assistant. She was employed, I guess, by Harpur. But I do not remember they may have been. I do not remember what you would call I know RAs, because my four kids went to colleges and they were RAS but I do not remember that at Harpur. That does not mean they were not. IG: 54:08 I mean, I am I see a little bit of a discrepancy here, because on the one hand, you talk about free love, and that must have been taking place somewhere. SW: 54:20 Right. IG: 54:20 And on the other hand, there were curfews for female students- SW: 54:24 Right-right. IG: 54:24 -and if they were just a few minutes late, they would be suspended. SW: 54:28 Right. IG: 54:29 So-so where was there- SW: 54:32 Was, there was the- IG: 54:34 -happening. SW: 54:35 There was outdoors. There was this hill- IG: 54:37 Yeah. SW: 54:37 -that led down, I remember this hill that that went from where the dorms were down to the- IG: 54:44 Right. SW: 54:44 -gym, and lots of kids hung out there. IG: 54:46 Yeah. SW: 54:47 There were people with cars and doing the back seat of the car. IG: 54:52 Okay. SW: 54:57 I remember doing the back seat of a Volkswagen. IG: 54:58 Yeah. SW: 54:59 Yeah. I mean, you did what you had to do, but no, but there was- IG: 55:02 Yeah-yeah. SW: 55:07 But you could the girls could not go, wait. Oh yeah, you could wait. I am trying to think some rule that your feet had to be on the ground, wait- IG: 55:16 Yeah. SW: 55:17 -your feet had to be on the ground. [crosstalk] Or, that rings a bell. I do not remember what that was. IG: 55:22 Right, I forgot exactly, but yeah, along those lines. SW: 55:24 Yeah, you could visit, but your feet had to be on the ground. Door open [crosstalk] IG: 55:27 One-one of the you know members, well, the member of the office is sex, or had to have at least one foot on the ground. SW: 55:36 Yeah-yeah. But who would check? But then the door had to be open, so there must be somebody. IG: 55:40 Somebody could not be lying, SW: 55:41 Right. Yeah, but-but there must have been someone to check it. I mean, there must have been some walking by. IG: 55:46 Exactly-exactly [crosstalk] SW: 55:46 I do not remember who that could have been. IG: 55:48 Not hearing with that. SW: 55:49 I have no idea. I do not remember, but I am- just rang a bell about feet on the ground. I just-just thought of that right now. IG: 55:55 Yeah-yeah. I heard about that too. Third speaker: 55:58 Could you visit the girls' dorm? SW: 56:01 During the certain hours she could it was visible and that we had that feet on the ground, yeah, certain hours during the day, you could go into the other dormitory and go upstairs, they said the hours, and you could do that. There were not there was no men's room bathroom in the girls dorm, and we could not use their bathroom, and there was no girl's bathroom in the men's dorm, but you could visit. And it was said [inaudible] maybe, maybe was one to four or something on certain days, on the weekend. I do not remember what it was, but yeah, you could, and the door had to be opened. And the rule was both feet or one foot on the ground with the door open. Remember that. But when you want to have sex, you have sex, you find a place to do it. IG: 56:47 Yeah. SW: 56:47 I mean that there is no- IG: 56:48 Do you think that expectations about sex and marriage were changing very much then that, you know, the free love, of course, does not equate, you know, the expectation is that it, it will not necessarily lead to marriage. So- SW: 57:08 Just as no, there was no reason not to enjoy that feeling. IG: 57:12 Yeah. SW: 57:12 Just because you are not going to get married [crosstalk] or you are going to go your way. IG: 57:15 I am just sort of trying to get [crosstalk] SW: 57:21 People expected to get married. Yeah, I expected to get married someday. The girls that I knew expected to get married, not necessarily to me. I do not know any girl back then who wanted to marry me. Now, whoever would ever, ever think of marrying someone like me? I do not think I was- IG: 57:36 What were you like back then? SW: 57:38 I remember doc- I remember Dr Vasilew said-said to me personally. He said a girl would probably think twice because of your childhood, you know, like him broken home and you do not like to visit [inaudible], you know, he said that probably would have an effect on how, how I would relate to a partner, the type of relationship. He actually said that to me. Dr. Vasilew, I remember it very clearly, so- IG: 58:11 That is very prescient of him, you know, because people were not necessarily talking like that back then. SW: 58:16 Oh, he said that to me. Oh, yeah, he did. Meanwhile, I have been married at the same woman since 1974 it can look very well, no, that is something, you know there, but, um, yeah, but people expected to get married, but not necessarily to the people that they went to bed with then, and also people disappeared. now they went, well, they went a different way. This is an out of town college with a trimester program where people, you know, I, there was one time I went three semesters and took off a semester. I mean, you know, then someone else would not be there, and then when it come back a semester later. IG: 58:56 Right. SW: 58:56 And then, you know, we did not have emails. I lost contact with a lot of people because there was no email. You did not do an email, if you did not write a letter. I have letters upstairs that I wrote to some people, but when I left Binghamton, I mean, I could not email, you know, my old roommate, my kids, they still email roommates, they email friends from high school. And I could not, and we did not do that. So you lost contact. If you did not write a long hand letter, that was it, and you did not call, because it is not, you know, unlimited, you know, calls on the cell phone. IG: 59:33 So how did you stay in touch, because clearly you-you know the face of some of your classmates. SW: 59:40 The only reason I know faces, I looked them up on the on the Binghamton. I learned that, well, I learned that Harvey Bournfield died. Who was he was the one in the video, because I tried to email him. I kind of classmates.com recently, five years ago, and I remember, and I. And then I-I had a phone number, I called him and actually got his son, and I found out that I had missed him by a year, and he died of cancer. So I sent his son a copy of that video. I said, I have a video of your father you may want to see, because he was the one climbing through the window. So, you know, I said that to me, really, he liked that so, but that is that I learned about Dave Lawton, who I was on the debate team and knew Dr Kadesh. I found that he died because I checked him on the alumni page. I checked names before the reunion, before the October. That is the only reason I know otherwise I will not know, yeah, and we did not keep touch. No. IG: 59:45 Were you? You said that you know Binghamton or Harpur College was felt like a family that you had not had with your own- SW: 1:00:50 To me, not necessarily to people who did have a family. It is all subjective. IG: 1:00:56 Of course, we are talking about your experience. So were you very saddened when you graduated and you had to leave this family? SW: 1:01:05 No, that is a very interesting question. I actually thought about that recently, because I was talking to my wife about that I want before we went back to that reunion. I wondered why I was not. IG: 1:01:19 Yeah. SW: 1:01:20 I mean, I really wondered about myself, why? Why was not I sad about leaving like, like my old my last roommate was a fellow by the name of Ira Mintzer. And we were close. We were good friends. We went on double date, double dates together. We had an apartment in Vestal near the Vestal High School. And, you know, I had left in the I left Binghamton, and that was it. No contact, no letters. You want to hear an interesting story about Ira Mintzer. IG: 1:01:20 Yes. SW: 1:01:23 So I am on Facebook, so I searched for some names. I come across Ira Mintzer. I remember he wanted to be a doctor. So Ira Mintzer doctor in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So I contacted him, because my old roommate, and two years ago, my wife and I were going up to Boston, so I said, “We are coming up to Boston.” He had me at his house for dinner, and his wife- IG: 1:02:24 How nice! SW: 1:02:25 -had not seen him since 1967 this was two years ago, since 2015 and got along as if, as if, we just graduated. So it is Facebook. IG: 1:02:44 You probably felt connected with him. SW: 1:02:47 Yeah, no. Now we come with now we write each other. I mean, on Facebook, we do not, we do not write. But now you do not have to send letter. You do not the call. I mean, you just there. It is, yeah, indicating with my fingers, yeah, no. So. IG: 1:03:00 Maybe-maybe. SW: 1:03:02 I do not know why I did not feel that, but other people, other people would have cried graduation. I maybe it is a defect in my personality. IG: 1:03:10 No, maybe it gave you what you needed, and that was it. SW: 1:03:13 Yeah, it was time to was time to move on. IG: 1:03:16 Time to go. SW: 1:03:17 Well, it is time to move on. I moved. I guess that is good. Maybe, you know, yeah, but I did, yeah, well, I do not know, but yeah, but I did not feel I felt glad to leave my home and go there. IG: 1:03:34 Yeah. SW: 1:03:35 I was happy when I was there. Other the anxiety that was pervasive in the (19)60s, and I was but I was not sad when it came time to leave. It was time to leave. IG: 1:03:45 Yeah. SW: 1:03:46 I did keep in touch with Dr Vasilew. IG: 1:03:48 Oh. SW: 1:03:50 By-by letter, we wrote each other. I would write him, and he would write me, not frequently, maybe a few times a year, but we did. But he was more than a pro- he was my coach and debating, so we would travel together the debate team. You saw that article which mentioned the debate team was not at large. It was eight of us, and I do not remember, but it was not large, so we were close group also. And you know, it was also like a cub master, and I was friends with his kid. I was friends with his kids, but when we went there, we played with his kids ball. He had three kids, daughter and two sons. IG: 1:04:32 When you look back on this experience at Harpur College, what do you think you know? How do you think it changed you? What did it give you? You said [crosstalk] SW: 1:04:46 Liberal arts education, yeah, and nothing with the clubs or anything else. The edge, I felt like the classes were small. We did not have any. There was one hall. All that looked like a lecture hall, and that was across the street from across the lawn, from the library. There was a new building, which, I mean, I think was science or something. I remember what it was, and that had a lecture hall, and I remember taking Psychology 101, and that was a lecture hall. Even then there was, was not a lot of students. Every other class I had was in the classroom not much bigger than the classroom I had in high school, elementary school, which was, you know, what, was not big. So we were really, I mean, it was really an intimate educational environment, you know, what, the way you picture something in the in the Aristotle or the Socrates, and, you know, he really, it was really back and forth. You know, when we this, when Dr. Carlip, discussed the Mont Pèlerin Society, when we really discussed it. Remember discussing, well, the-the outcome of that was Reagan and taking back, undoing the New Deal, but really with their motives. And I remember debating it, their motives, to some extent, were good motives, because they were afraid of central government, the fascism and everything else that came with it. And I remember debating it back and forth, maybe like 15 of us in the class and Dr. Carlip, and every once in a while, he would have a sofa to his house for a class. So these were not big classes. So it was, I think I really learned a lot. I mean, my notebook, I used to, I used to type my notes, and it was just, was just, I mean, I really felt I got an unbelievable education. I mean, I remember just, I just remember things that these professors said I. I remember my English. I remember my English professor- IG: 1:06:45 For example, give us, give us some, you know, memorable things that they have told you that have influenced your thinking. SW: 1:06:52 Okay. they want my-my English, one of my English professors who had us to read The Rubaiyat [Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám]. So, I mean, I read that to my kids when they were young. the moving finger writes. You know that right? You know the Rubaiyat so. So just remember, I remember, I am saying "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit ". Can call it back the cancel half a line or your tears wash out of it. I just remember standing up there. I remember, remember how that influenced a young student, you know, did? I am a devout atheist. Let me enforce that. So just and Dr. Melville [Robert Melville], who he was an advisor to the House Committee on sales and use tax. So in my because of that, just because of him, yeah, I am just getting a notebook because of Dr. Melville and when they read, I read the bill, it was just a bill. But this was the bill back then, HR, 11, 798, he was the, he was the member of Congress in Binghamton. IG: 1:08:22 Oh, wow. SW: 1:08:23 And since Dr. Melville was involved in that, I mean, I wanted to research it, so I read it on my own, because, because of him, so, you know, and I wrote a paper about it. I think that is my paper. I am not sure. Is that about the sales, news, tax- IG: 1:08:47 -introduction, apology and justification? Is that it? SW: 1:08:51 Oh, I know what that was. Yeah, about economics. I do not remember. IG: 1:08:57 Yeah-yeah, theory and you agree beginning. SW: 1:09:03 But you could see what the type of student there was by looking at my notebook. I mean, there is my notes-notes. I mean, I typed everything, but I really like it really felt like, like a partnership. Let us pull my rope. I mean, I really, I really felt like there was a partnership between the students and the professors in the academic environment that we learned from each other. I said it was almost like the what you would think the Greek learning system was. So that is what, that is what I got out of it. I do not know if they do that now, I think the classes are bigger now, yeah, and the money's cut back now. I mean, education was still highly valued then by our society. Third speaker 1:09:50 Oh, graduate level, you get that? SW: 1:09:53 I am sure you do. Third speaker: 1:09:54 But undergraduate level , you do not. SW: 1:09:56 Oh, we got it. My undergraduate level, we got small class. Is, we delved into things deeply. We debated them. Third speaker: 1:10:04 You describe like, what you describe here sounds like, you know, graduate [crosstalk] IG: 1:10:12 Well or a very, you know, exclusive private college, right? SW: 1:10:18 It was like that. It was free. It was great. I do not believe I did all this. I am looking at these notes. I must have lunatic. I must have been very compulsive. My God. Third speaker: 1:10:18 Yeah. IG: 1:10:34 So how do you think that the college prepared you for your future life, what, what imprint did it leave on you? What, you know, in a quality of kind of thinking, or how did it- SW: 1:10:50 I think it made me help, make me a better human being. When my first job as a lawyer was legal aid, criminal, you know, I did not, was not there for the big bucks or anything I really want. I mean, that is the only job I applied for. That is the only thing I wanted to do. So, I do not know. I think it helped with everything. I think it was, it even helped me be a better husband and parent. I mean my kids. I mean I am proud of them. That is my four kids up there, but I mean they at Thanksgiving. I mean, we all went around to say what we are thankful for. We are all eight. We are all atheists, but we went around, but one of them things, Alex said, my youngest son, he said, I am thankful for a close knit, happy family. that was just, I mean, you know, just. And one of the things I remember, one of the things I envied of Dr. Vasilew, was because I came from a broken home, was to see him and his family when he took a sit into the to the house and so, so I think it helped me be, you know, and be a better lawyer, too. I think that the more liberal your education, the better you could be at whatever you do, whether you are a doctor or lawyer. So it helped me, you know, with the assigned counsel, because you were assigned as legal aid to defend people, I just, you know, I understood that, but for the grace of God, no, I so. So, yeah, I think, I think the education I got there really carried me far. IG: 1:12:34 So any thoughts for the future of how, of what elements, what ingredients are most essential for the kind of educational experience that you were provided? SW: 1:12:47 I think the most important thing, I disagree with what Obama talked about, and I supported Obama at both times, but when he talked about, you know, maybe not everyone, maybe we should have so much of a liberal arts education, but should prepare people for jobs and things like they said that. IG: 1:13:05 Yeah. SW: 1:13:06 I disagree. I think, I think, if you an educated society is the best guarantee of freedom of-of, you know, universal health care, of opportunity and-and that is a liberal arts education. You have to literature, math, science, history, economics. Mont Pèlerin, you went to study that, unless you went to economics. But that is really, that is really a philosophical Ryan [Paul Ryan], the House of Speaker is a Mont Pèlerin type person, right? I mean, he really believes that the government has no business in Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid. Well, that is right out of Mont Pèlerin's first year away from the New Deal or away from Nazism or away from the central government. So I think that a well-educated society, liberal arts is the most important thing. I think everyone should have liberal arts education. I mean, I do not know how we can do that. You know, Bernie Sanders said education for all, but the society, I do not think, is, is moving away from it. IG: 1:14:19 Right. SW: 1:14:19 You know, the-the thing that, and a non-educated society is more susceptible to fear. I mean, when you are, you know, if you are educated, then, then you-you can, you could, like we did in the classes in college, you know, you could look at something and ask, this, is this makes sense? Like Vietnam? Does this make sense? Does it make sense to go to war when, when a group of fanatics bomb the World Trade Center? Does it make more sense to have police work and deal with them and fight them, and that is and that is not a war, you know? Yeah, you use a reason, but you but, but that is the luxury of an. Educated person, but, but, but we should recognize that it is in our interest to have our neighbors educated, otherwise our neighbors will come at us with the pitchforks. You know, the educated one is not because, so it is a selfish reason, just like, Why was I against the war in Vietnam? Or part of it was altruistic, but part of it was selfish, so, but there is nothing wrong with having a selfish component, because we are people, so that is fine. So that is what I that is what I think, you know, and we have to invest more, but we are not going in that direction. I just told my son when he was here for Thanksgiving, I said, Why do not you go into politics? My youngest son- IG: 1:15:39 But you know, going to Harpur College at the time that you did, you know, during the mid (19)60s, when the country was really going through cataclysmic changes, you know, maybe intensified your educational experience. SW: 1:15:56 Of course it did. Yeah, we were forced to be involved. Well, part of it was the Selective Service system. You were forced. You could not-not be involved. You could choose not to take the exam in the gym, but you were involved with the ticket or not. You know, it is like Moby Dick in the whale. You know, you can decide to throw a spear into Moby Dick or not. The whale is going to be there. It is there. So, you know, we were involved with the you could not-not be involved. You know, we got those develops like I am going to give you from the draft, but we were involved, the civil rights movement. We were involved. There were people getting angry. Out of out of SDS, came the Black Panthers, yeah, [inaudible] the SDS, you know, so you we were involved, and there was nowhere not to be. There was areas of Binghamton where you would be afraid to walk because of blacks, and there were other bars. There was a bar that I remember, there was a street that was parallel to Vestal Parkway, where the we passed by, where the Dean's house was, and there is still a lot of house there the dean. IG: 1:16:59 I think so [crosstalk] SW: 1:17:01 Continued down all the way, almost like Binghamton, before the bridges, there was like a bar, was a black bar, and they used to charge what was known as white tax for the beer. So like, if you were a black person, you paid x for the beer, and if you were a white kid like me, you would pay 2x for the beer. IG: 1:17:18 Yeah, that is like the sub the Soviet Union used to have a dual- SW: 1:17:23 Yeah, the friendship currents, yeah. I remember that, yeah. I remember the [inaudible] Street and going, yeah-yeah. Third speaker: 1:17:30 How was the campus then, like, were there any black students in the campus? Like- SW: 1:17:38 Very, actually, I only remember one. He was next. He was a- an exchange student from Kenya. Third speaker: 1:17:48 Africa, not America. SW: 1:17:49 Not an American. Like, no, I do not remember. Third speaker: 1:17:52 Not even one? SW: 1:17:52 I do not remember. I do not remember one look at the yearbook from (19)67 and (19)66 it is in the-the Alumni Center. I do not think, yeah, I do not, I do not remember any black students. No. IG: 1:18:03 Most of the students were from New York City, from Long Island. SW: 1:18:06 New York City and Long Island, yeah, and- Third speaker: 1:18:09 Like, when you compare boys versus girls, like, majority of them like boys, right? Not many women? SW: 1:18:18 No, there were a lot of girls there, you know? I mean, I did not seem like I was, I mean, I went Brooklyn Tech, where I went to high school as an old boy school. So it was so refreshing, because it was coed, yeah, but I did not feel that, that, that we outnumbered them by any significant amount, that would no there may have been, but I do not I in my subjective memory. No. Third speaker 1:18:19 No, yeah, I am asking how you remember. SW: 1:18:34 Yeah, no, I do not, I do not remember it being overwhelmingly male. No. SDS had a lot of SDS had a lot of girls in it. Actually, that was an attraction, but they had a lot of girls, and they were not subject to the draft, but there were a lot of girls there. IG: 1:19:06 So did you have any interaction with the, with, with, you know, the rest of the population in Binghamton? I mean- SW: 1:19:16 Services for Youth. IG: 1:19:17 Yeah-yeah, that is right, of course. SW: 1:19:20 I do not remember how the kids got involved with us. I remember there was a-a park. If you went into Binghamton, we took him to a park. there was a zoo in the park, and you went into Binghamton and went to the right, up this little hill, there was some park there. And in the park, there was a zoo. Yeah, Ross Park. IG: 1:19:20 It still exist. SW: 1:19:39 Yeah. I remember taking kids there. Yes, we were involved in them, but I do not remember where the kids came from. I do not remember, but yes, we were involved. And not all of the faculties supported the anti-war group, Kadish went to my apartment to a rally. Vasilew, who I, who I liked a lot, who was the one that gave me my comment that a girl would think twice before marrying someone like you, which is true. I understand that. I mean, you know, like saying, if a plate is broken, you can glue it together, but the cracks still there. You know, so, but anyways, but he, I remember, you know, as I remember talking about the draft, and he said, he-he actually, he had two sides to him. First, he has he, he thought that the draft was appropriate. He was liberal, and on the other hand, he was not sure if we should have gotten involved in World War Two. I remember him saying that. So, which is fine, because there is no right answer. You know, it is unlike you know, two and two and was, what is the answer? There is no right answer. IG: 1:19:40 There is no right answer. SW: 1:21:02 No there are right questions. And then you think about the answers. So, I mean, back then, I probably was not so kind as to his response, because I thought, you know, for World War Two, we were the good guys, and to Vietnam, we had no business being there. And it is black and white. And it was not until I became more mature that I realized there is no right answer, and Vietnam is definitely wrong. And should we get involved too? Well, I still think we should have but, but there is no right answer. IG: 1:21:28 So it, you know, again, looking back, do you think that this was among your happy the happy period? Speaker 1 1:21:46 Yes, absolutely, I am basically, I basically became a happy person when I left home. I mean, I have a mean, that is my personality. I mean, I just my wife sometimes calls me the happy idiot. I am not kidding. No, I get happy sometimes for no reason. I mean, I because I am lucky. I mean, life has been good to me. I mean, but, but that was definitely that there was a change. It was a change for me from a miserable childhood up until I left, to-to not, you know, not being subject to that misery. So, yeah, it was definitely very happy period. IG: 1:22:25 So you never really returned to your family. SW: 1:22:30 Well, my parents- IG: 1:22:30 Your parents were split up. SW: 1:22:32 They split. [crosstalk] My mother waited until I graduated high school, and then then my father moved to, uh, an apartment in also in Flush, in Flushing off Main Street. And my mother moved to place in the Bronx called Riverdale. And-and so they lived, you know, apart. And so no, there was no home to come to. So and then I said, I tried to avoid this. I mean, I visited my father, I thought I could stand him. And as I told you, the one time that he asked me to visit him, and I said no, and then the next day I came and he was dead. So then the guilt that I felt was, you know, it took me a long time to get over that, I know. Very nice. IG: 1:23:11 Yeah, I could imagine. SW: 1:23:12 Because I felt, well, what if I have been there, then I would call a doctor or something, you know, but it was no.t IG: 1:23:18 Yeah. SW: 1:23:18 And he had been dead already he was lying in the bathroom. IG: 1:23:20 Yeah. SW: 1:23:21 So, but no, the college years, it was-was turning out what happened I was happy in college, basically, other than the fear. But yes. IG: 1:23:34 So, what-what do you have any message for? You know, a future student, a future you know, listening to this tape, you know, 5-10, years from now, of how they should approach their undergraduate- SW: 1:23:50 I would say liberal arts. Take, take, take, English literature, foreign literature, world history, American history, science, just take, take as much varied material as you can. When I went to law school, all took was law, you know my friend who is now my friend again, Ira. You know, medicine, science and medicine. But in college, you could take everything, do it. You know you could, do not take pre-law and just take poli sci or pre-med and just take science, take other things, because that will make you better at everything. IG: 1:24:33 And for-for our politicians, for example, listening to this interview 5-10, years from now, do you have a message for them. SW: 1:24:41 Yes, invest in education, unless you feel that the only way you will stay in office is to have an uneducated society. But if you want to make society better, then you invest in education. You know, then you realize, look, when Obama made the statement, you did not build this. Remember, he made that statement. When he was trying to convey. And he conveyed the people who understood him, educated people that, you know, the transcontinental railway, the highways, the telephone poles, all the things that people did for next to nothing made it possible for the wealthy people to have their wealth. It did not just come out of nowhere. So wars that people fought, the good wars and the bad wars, or, you know, the infrastructure, everything that existed, that people got paid nothing, or that slaves built. So that is what he meant when he said that you did not build this. He did not mean, you know, you did not build your grocery store and it is not yours. He did not because they turned it on him, like Romney turned it on him. But an educated person would understand that and would appreciate it that if I am wealthy, I mean, that is great, but, I mean, why should not other people participate in the wealth of a nation that is wealthy? Why should it just be limited to excuse me as it could be my office? No, it is not okay. So that is what, yeah, so, so for politicians edgy, if you really believe in this country, then-then education. That is the thing to invest in the most, not take away from teachers' unions and-and get and not, you know, not have, like, charter schools, where with something, we have to compete for a good school, otherwise you are stuck. I mean, I told you my public-school education was great. I mean, I it was really good. I had good teachers who were, you know, got paid well or no standards, and were respected. They were not demonized. Like, like the governor Wisconsin demonized teachers. Of course you are going to demonize a teacher if, if the only way to keep your power is to have uneducated people, like-like, like Trump said he bragged about uneducated people voting for him he bragged about it, which is true. So that is preaching to the choir. IG: 1:27:06 Well, that is, it is preaching to the choir, of course, but other people may not be the choir listening to this. So and do you have any words for President Stinger? SW: 1:27:18 Right now? He is the president of Harpur. IG: 1:27:21 He is a president of the university. Would you like to impart any, any of your thoughts to him or a future president? SW: 1:27:32 Well, he should do his best to bring, bring back true community, learning, small classes in depth learning, having faculty and students meet in each other's places of residence, like we did at barbecues. And the barbecue is not just, you know, just eating and drinking, but the barbecue is also talking about your subject and other subjects and relating, relating economics and literature and science. I mean, when you get together to barbecue, talk about all sorts of things, I think that that is the key, and that is what made it so great. Like you said, it is like a small private college, although it was not, but that is the key. Small classes, intimate settings and the environment that encourages questioning and debate, you know, so it is not my country right or wrong, it is my country. Make it better. But you know, there is no right or wrong. You should not do it that way. And you know, your emotional baggage, you know, you know, I had a lot of emotional baggage, but when I got to college, I was able to put it in the overhead bin, in a little chair, and go about my business. So, you know, so that that is, that is the key, you know, learn to be able to the baggage away. IG: 1:28:50 Maybe it allowed you the freedom. SW: 1:28:53 Yes. IG: 1:28:53 You know, freedom from the emotional baggage. SW: 1:28:57 Yes. IG: 1:28:57 You could come back to it a different person. SW: 1:29:00 Yes, but I have a certain but, like my wife said, I am like, I am a happy idiot, and I get happy I just do, like, Vasilew was wrong. He said, You know, he thought that I would never, actually thought I would never be able to have I-I went out with a lot of girls than in life, and I did not. And I was somewhat mean. I mean, I was nice, but-but-but, you know, like, if when I was-was not interested anymore, that was it. IG: 1:29:29 Yeah. SW: 1:29:31 But, yeah, that is not the way to be. But the thing is, but I learned from it and- but then I evolved. I mean, I said when I got married, I mean, you know, I very happy with it, just he would, he did not think it would ever work, but it really did. Actually, I [inaudible], my wife and I actually visited him. IG: 1:29:52 And what did he say? Did he Did you remind him what he said? SW: 1:29:56 No, I do not talk about that. No, you know, he said, he said, "I see you are a successful lawyer." I said “Yes,” and we talked about that, okay, no-no, I was not going to. There is no reason too. No. And then they, you know, no, but that is, that is the price I would give and have other artifacts I could show you when, once we finish talking before you go. IG: 1:30:22 Well, I you know, do you have concluding, you know, thoughts, remarks, anything that you would like to explore? I think we covered a lot of ground. SW: 1:30:30 No, I think, no. I think it encouraged students, no, just encourage student involvement and student involvement in politics and make-make it known that why education is important. You kind of invest in education, small classes in education, or there is no guarantee that this country will remain a democracy. IG: 1:30:51 Yeah. SW: 1:30:52 That is not guaranteed. It is not guaranteed. IG: 1:30:54 There is no guarantee. SW: 1:30:55 No, and they could very well not. And with overreactions, with-with, you know, people like Bush taking us into Iraq and-and torture becoming a norm again. You know, Guantanamo indefinite detention when lunatic Trump becomes president. You know who, who brags about, you know, fondling women and talks about arresting his opponents and egomaniac and having these Republicans love him and the Christian right loving him. I mean, yeah, a real danger here. IG: 1:31:33 Yeah. SW: 1:31:34 And it could happen here. IG: 1:31:36 Yeah. SW: 1:31:36 And it might very well happen here. So the key is just that education to get the educated people to expand like, like, we sent people from Harpur College down to the south, as I said, I personally did not go, but I know people who did, and people from SDS went, send them out to do things. I am going to a bar association meeting with us tomorrow night. One of the things we are talking about is working with the Alabama and other bar associations to get ID cards. The voters will have trouble getting ID cards, getting photographed and paying for their ID cards so they and making sure they vote, because there is voter suppression, obviously in these states. So we are thinking as a Bar Association project, almost like a school project. IG: 1:32:19 That is wonderful. SW: 1:32:20 Yeah. So we are thinking of doing that. So we are talking about that tomorrow night, after which we are going to go to the Algonquin hotel and drink scotch. So you-you know, lawyers find that the more Scotch they drink, the more interesting other lawyers become. So-so we do that too, yeah. Yeah. So-so that is the key to get, to get them to go out. I mean, keep the have a close community, and when you are close and secure, then you could go out. IG: 1:32:50 Well, that is exactly what happened to you at the college, the close community. And once you- SW: 1:32:57 With that security. IG: 1:32:58 -security. SW: 1:32:59 Then you are able to go out when you are insecure and you look, you know, then it is hard to go forward. IG: 1:33:06 Yeah. SW: 1:33:06 But so that is what you need. And then have them go out, having to, you know, help with small things, voter ID, getting out to vote, getting people to vote, you know, they suppress it by I mean, when I go to vote, I wait. I wait for one minute. I do not wait. We have, we have, we have more voting places here than the small fee community than, you know, there they have one black communities down there. They have one book, one polling place. It is open from, you know, 9:00 am on a work day to 5:00 pm they went online for three hours. You are not going to want to do that. Well, you have to make them do they have to go out there. You give them food, you know, bring out coffee. Just do it. We went that, you know, I, as I said, I did not go down south, so I am not going to say did, but people went down there and, you know, and help you got to do that. You got get a mat so you made him secure. Then come out and expand, because we are all in the same boat, right? You know, saying that, you know, I am in a lifeboat with you, and I start drilling a hole under my seat, and you say to me, what are you doing? I said, Well, same boat. Yeah, so that is my word of wisdom. Anything else? IG: 1:34:16 I think? I think not. I think it is a great interview. Thank you very much. SW: 1:34:21 My pleasure. I will show you like one artifact. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephen Norman Weiss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weiss, Stephen Norman ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stephen Weiss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-11-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 94:30 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d859f78e9f059ecc4edf71249c12d31.mp3 6d5957095abda2b5ea0e79f966775655 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b98660f9c3203b3aa53447be97f8f9af.png 8040c05abed95639500dcb8b9c6c64c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey H. Strauss Biographical Text At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Year of Graduation 1968 Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Geoffery Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Oh, it is snowing again. Okay, so are we on? Third speaker: 00:15 Yeah. IG: 00:22 So, Jeff, please tell me your name, your birth date, and where we are. GS: 00:32 Okay. My name is Geoffery Strauss. My birth date is May 3, 1946 and right now we are in my living room. IG: 00:43 Okay, so what are the years that you attended Harpur College? GS: 00:47 For our bachelor's, I went there from 1964 graduated in 1968. Then for my master's, from 1969 to 1971. IG: 01:01 Where did you grow up? GS: 01:03 Grew up on Long Island. IG: 01:04 Where in Long Island? GS: 01:06 Baldwin, small town on the south shore, middle of Nassau County. IG: 01:10 So, so what? What were your- What did your parents do? What? What was their occupation? GS: 01:20 My father was a certified public accountant. My mother was for most of my life, a homemaker. IG: 01:27 Right. GS: 01:27 And then when I got to high school, she started a business. So she was a businesswoman for-for a few years, IG: 01:35 Oh, what kind of business? GS: 01:36 Uh, she made things, she made- took-took umbrellas and decorated them, and they had these things called bobeches. They were like a tube. She decorated those, and you put a candle inside, so the candle looked pretty. IG: 01:55 What were- where did you go to high school? GS: 01:59 Baldwin Senior High School in Baldwin. IG: 02:02 Was there an expectation in your family that you would go on to college? GS: 02:07 From the time I was born. [laughs] Yeah, that was one of the things fairly typical for Jewish families. Education is very-very important. So yeah, the expectation was- my father always said you could do anything you want, but first you go to college and then you can do whatever do whatever you want. IG: 02:24 Did you have siblings? GS: 02:25 My sister, had an older sister. She went to Smith. IG: 02:30 So of course, the expectations were for her as well. GS: 02:34 Oh, absolutely. IG: 02:35 Why did you, why did you decide to go to Harper College? GS: 02:38 Kind of a funny kind of story. There was uh, I had been accepted by Drew University in New Jersey, and I went there to look at-- it was a beautiful campus, absolutely gorgeous, like a little piece of New England in New Jersey. Uh, and they had a wonderful program for social studies where you spent your senior year, your junior year, I am sorry, abroad. So I was all set to go there, and then I got accepted at what was then Harpur College, and my mother sat me down and said, "Still, we are still paying on your sister school, Harpur College, your scholarship will take you all the way through while your father said you can go anywhere you want. This would be much less expensive thing." So I ended up going, I ended up going there. So which was actually, I guess, changed my life. My wife there. I changed my occupation there. So it was kind of interesting. IG: 02:57 Right. So what were some of your expectations going in to Harpur? Did you have sort of a career in mind that you would pursue? GS: 03:55 Yeah, I was going to, I majored in accounting, so I was going to take over my father's or join him in his practice, and then eventually take over his practice when he retired. That was the initial thing there. Accounting had no part of my life when we went to Drew, but they had a good accounting program at Harpur, so I switched, and that was my idea there. And I also enjoyed social studies, so I took a lot of classes in the social science department, and a professor there thought I was a social studies major and offered me a graduate position. But I said, I am an accounting major. He said, “You are an accounting major. Why are you taking 200 level courses?” So I said, I like it. So that was a holdover from-from Drew. I just love the politics and the history and-and that. So it is still interested in that. IG: 04:50 So you graduated with a degree in- GS: 04:53 Accounting. IG: 04:54 -in accounting, in accounting. What are you- what is your profession now? GS: 05:01 Well, of course, I am retired now, but for many years, I taught accounting at high school, the local high school, Union-Endicott, and then we also had a program with Broome Community College whereby I taught college accounting. The kids got college credit for-for that as well as high school credit. What was your graduate degree at Binghamton? And- That was in teaching accounting. IG: 05:26 Oh, and teaching in accounting. GS: 05:27 Mm-Hmm. IG: 05:28 What made you decide to go into the teaching profession rather than join your father in his business? GS: 05:38 I had in my- I forgot whether it was my freshman or my sophomore year, they had a pro- they began a program at Harpur called Upward Bound. This was a program for college or kids with college ability, but because of economic or social reasons, probably would not go to school. So this was to encourage them to go. And I became a counselor there, started working with kids, and really enjoyed it. So when I graduated, I sort of combined the accounting and working with kids and went to- started at Maine Endwell, and then moved over to Union Endicott, and played high school for 33-34 years. IG: 06:26 Was your father disappointed that you did not join him in his business? Or did he really like the direction that you were going in? GS: 06:36 It was funny. I think at first, he did not want me to become an accountant. He said as much, too much work, too much work, too much time involved. And I remember, I remember as a kid, you know, he would go- leave in the morning. He would not come home until seven at night because he worked in New York City. And by the time he got home, he did not have dinner until 7:30 or so forth. And then it was basically, after you did your homework, time for bed. So during the week, yeah, hardly ever got to see him, so I realized he spent a lot of time working, but still, that seemed like the thing to do. But I think as I went through college, he sort of warmed to the idea. For a couple of summers, I worked for him, and we worked together going into the city during the summer. We are trimester then, so we had four months off. And so I think he wanted the idea, but then, you know, I sort of moved away, and I do not think he was too upset by it. IG: 07:36 Where did he work? And did he have his own firm? Or...? GS: 07:40 Yeah, he was, he was in, he was in practice by himself, and but most of his clients were in New York City, although he had some up-up- upstate Westchester County. And then actually he had some down in Georgia too. So he would fly to Georgia, do some of his work there. And then he would, he would fly home. IG: 08:00 So what- before going to Harpur, what reputation did Harpur have in your mind and- GS: 08:10 My mind, oh, it was a real, highly academic school, high pressure school, but certainly one of the better-better schools and in the, in the SUNY system. I was out for liberal arts. And so it met my-my requirement there. So it was, it was, it was a good mesh, but it met with its reputation. It was a very high-pressure school. IG: 08:39 And when you arrived and spent some time here, did that impression change? GS: 08:45 Oh, no-no. It just reinforced, once I was a student, that everything revolved around the-the curve, you know, and if you were having a good time, there was some kid back in the in the dorm, studying a little more, which would mess up the curve. So you had a, you had to be back there and studying yourself, so you could get up on that on that curve. IG: 09:13 What was the- so you took liberal arts at first as a requirement. GS: 09:18 Mm-Hmm. IG: 09:18 So what were some- did you have any outstanding courses that you- outstanding faculty that you studied with that kind of pushed you in the direction of teaching? GS: 09:30 Uh, not actually in the direction of teaching. I had a few professors who I really liked. There was one, again, in the Social Studies Department, Dekmejian [Richard Hrair Dekmejian], who was just fantastic. He was he really- I really enjoyed the classes I took with him, and the accounting classes we had Phil Piaker, who was also a local CPA, had his own firm here, and he was terrific. I-I really enjoyed the courses I took from him, but nothing pushed me toward the teaching during the school year, it was, it was the program, the Upward Bound, during that during the summer, that sort of moved me in that direction. IG: 10:14 So you spend most of your time studying, what did you do? What was, what was residential life like? You know, you would spend all your time studying in your room or in the library. And what did you do for recreation? GS: 10:32 [laughs] It was kind of interesting back then. I remember in my freshman and sophomore year that they only had one classroom building called the CA building. Half of it was the administration, and the other, other way was the classroom building. So very often you would go there find an empty classroom. You just sit in there in the evening and then you would study there was nice and quiet. I do not know if they still do things like that, but we did it back then. The library--I did not study in the library too much. It was either in my room or over in the classroom building. IG: 11:04 Right-right. So um, your wife mentioned that she met you in your freshman year. GS: 11:14 Yeah. IG: 11:15 And could you just describe how you remember her from that time? You must have a lasting memory. GS: 11:22 Well, it was funny. She was one of the few upstate people up there. There were so many kids from the metropolitan area, so we sort of called her the funny little upstate girl. And she was very naive, very Catholic. So it was a real change for me. IG: 11:46 Yeah. GS: 11:47 Because most of the kids that I knew on Long Island and associated really with in college too, were nice Jewish boys and girls, and somehow, she-she came, she came to the fore, and there was just something that clicked, right from the very beginning, when I first met her, there was just something special about her, and seemed to work. We have been married for almost 50 years, so it seems seemed pretty good. IG: 12:13 I would say. So, did you first interact after class? Where would you go out? Would you be in your- GS: 12:24 Well, a little bit of both- IG: 12:26 -segregated dorms, which were called co-ed dorms. GS: 12:28 Well, the first semester where we were in what they considered at that time a co-ed dorm, you know, boys in one wing and girls in the other wing. IG: 12:36 Right. GS: 12:37 Then come the fall, that dorm was filled up. So I started during the summer, and then I went over to Broome when Broome first opened up. Now that was the Broome that is not there anymore. They built that building. The construction of it, even when it was brand new, we knew it was really poor. I was like, this building is not going to last. And obviously it did not, because now they have a brand-new dorms. You know, that whole section there. So we, you know, we were there. I had her in a couple of different classes, Spanish class, which was not my forte. So she, she helped me with that. IG: 13:16 She mentioned that. GS: 13:17 Yeah, sometimes by looking over her shoulder, [laughs] uh, languages were not my thing. I took Spanish in seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade, tenth grade, eleventh grade and twelfth grade, and they wanted to put me in Spanish. I think two were Spanish three, and all they did was speak Spanish in there. And that was just way beyond me. So they let me audit once again, and then I made it through two, and somehow, I managed to squirm through the language requirement. But boy, that was not easy for me, and it actually runs in the family. My sister had the same problem with languages. She-she took Latin, and then she took Spanish in college, and had the same, same difficulties. We have comprehensions and different thing. Languages not mine- IG: 14:04 You have ability in math, and you have probably for accounting. GS: 14:10 Well, in accounting. And what I really wanted to be for many-many years was an architect. IG: 14:15 Oh really? GS: 14:16 Uh, there was no room for me an architect. I could not do like, I could do the accounting kind of math, the higher math, calculus and stuff like that. I had a lot of difficulty with that. So the architecture was-was going to be out. But I do have a- I do enjoy building things. So that is, that is my idea. I like, I like building accounting systems. I like building physical things, IG: 14:47 Did you build any part of this house? GS: 14:47 Uh, not the house--some of the cabinetry, that clock there, that clock there. So all these things, I build the porch. If you look out in the porch. The porch I built. So, you know, I do like working with my hands, and I got that from my father. He did a lot of woodwork, so I followed with that. I have gone further than but then he did. But then I have- I had being a teacher. I had more time to really do that, and my father never took vacations except to play little golf. IG: 15:19 Um, in my mind, Harpur College at the time was really strong in liberal arts, but you said that you had good experiences in the accounting department. Can you describe what the accounting department was like at the time? GS: 15:35 Uh, kind of difficult at that time we- I was just taking courses, uh, but the idea of eventually, of course, joining-joining my father. Uh, but you know you, they had the courses set up and the catalog--this was the one you took in your freshman year; this is the one you took next, one, next one. So I just follow the progression some professors I like better than others. You know, just like in any, any of the departments, but Dr. Piaker showed he was, he was one of the one of the better ones, because he-he explained things so-so wonderfully, and he had the practical experience to do it, because, you know, he was a practicing CPA as well. Anyway, I just, I just followed her through and eventually got my degree. IG: 16:30 Were you as sort of politically aware as-as your wife at the time? GS: 16:38 She was more politically aware than me. I like more of the history part of it, but the-the mechanics of politics I enjoyed. IG: 16:52 How do you mean? GS: 16:53 You know how different countries worked. You know how they set up their political systems. One of the professors I had in one of my classes, Dr. Ulc [Otto Ulc] I believe he was from one of the communist countries and-and was a judge there and escaped into, you know, into the West. And he was really an interesting guy, really interesting guy. And, of course, he showed us how, taught us how the legal system and the political system worked in the, in the communist regime at the time. And we- you know, compared those to, you know, democracy most of the time in Europe, United States always being sort of a little different. Now, it is all falling apart, but-but-but at the time it was, it was the years of the war in court, kind of liberal, progressive, and it was, and it was kind of kind of fun. I just like those kinds of things. IG: 17:50 Yeah. Were you influenced by the Vietnam War? GS: 17:54 Oh, yeah, a lot, yeah, certainly against the war. Probably one of my reasons for not going into-into accounting itself, we could get a teaching deferment. So that-that-that influenced me a little bit, but if I did not have any interest in teaching, I do not think that would have entered my mind just-just to pick up teaching as for deferment. But that was part of it. IG: 18:17 Yeah. GS: 18:18 Yeah. Vietnam war, with to me, was a disaster from-from the get go, and it turned out, turned out to be- IG: 18:23 Were you aware of it being a disaster? Did-did- GS: 18:26 Oh, yeah-yeah. I did not think it would be such a disaster, where we, you know, I mean, the mightiest army in the world, and could not defeat a whole bunch of, basically a ragtag army. IG: 18:39 Right. GS: 18:39 But they were very dedicated, very clever, very-very dedicated to the to their cause. And I do not think we really had our heart in it. And the truth, I do not think the guys over there had their heart in I do not think the country had their heart in fighting this war. It was more of war for the politicians. And as it turned out, it seemed to be even they knew it was not a good war, but they just felt to save face, we had, we had to stay in. IG: 19:09 Was there- do- in your memory, was there a lot of student activism? GS: 19:15 Oh yeah, there was, you know, a lot of marches-marches, busses going down to Washington, DC. Yeah IG: 19:23 Were you involved in that at all? GS: 19:25 Not as much on campus a little bit, but not-not so far as going down to Washington. I stayed pretty much, you know, on campus with our studying and with our- the group of people who are our friends. IG: 19:41 Did the army recruit at all at Harpur College? GS: 19:45 I do not think so. No, I am not even sure they were allowed on campus. Looking back, it was pretty anti- Very anti-military. -military at that particular point. IG: 19:57 Um, there was a big town and gown separation, and I- in Binghamton, GS: 20:02 [inaudible] IG: 20:04 You know, town and gown. GS: 20:07 Oh, town and gown. I am sorry, yes-yes, I gotcha, yeah. IG: 20:10 So, you know, I imagine that many of the Binghamton locals were probably supportive of the war. GS: 20:18 Yeah, there was not a real close town and gown relationship while we were there at all. There was the town and there was the gown. IG: 20:25 Right. GS: 20:25 And they seemed very resentful of the campus. They did not mind us spending the money in town, but they did not associate with us. I am not sure if that is changed or not. There was very few of the students who lived off campus. IG: 20:40 Right. GS: 20:40 Almost everybody lived on campus at that particular time. Uh, so I guess the relationship between students and-and the community, I do not think we are very strong at that particular- during those days. IG: 20:58 Well, perhaps you know now I noticed that the I know that the university is very invested in helping them- Binghamton community, but before it might not have happened. GS: 21:11 Now, it is a little satellite all by itself. IG: 21:14 And you felt that very much, that you were sort of a culturally apart. GS: 21:19 Yeah, since most of us were from downstate, yeah, and more liberal, this was a pretty conservative. Was and is a pretty conservative area. Harpur sort of stood by itself. IG: 21:30 Right. GS: 21:31 You know, pretty iso- physically, it was isolated. IG: 21:34 Right. GS: 21:35 You know, on campus, small campus, lots of land all around where- which the campus owned, but kept us, kept us separate. The only way to get into town was a bus, you know, the public bus, which had to stop. And the only, you know, the mall, as we know it was not built yet. All we had was the Vestal Plaza and the stores that were there, Britts, which was a department store that is long gone. And so that is where we would go shopping. IG: 22:05 Nobody had cars at the time. GS: 22:07 Very few, very few. There was not even much parking. Eventually, I got a car. I think it was in my junior year, and that really liberated up a lot of us, but we- as far as driving around is concerned, you drove home, you drove back, but once you were on campus, unless you went out for dinner or something like that, yeah, you pretty much stayed on campus. IG: 22:31 So um, tell me about, you know, residential life more and the dormitory situation and where you would visit your wife. Did you go out? Did you visit her at her dorm when you started going out? GS: 22:51 Yeah, well, we did both--for a couple of years, couple of semesters, we were separated. I was in Broome, I think she was in Whitney, and then eventually a place opened up, a room opened up, so I went there. So we were, we were pretty close, because they locked the ladies up. So that, you know, after that the guys would go out, but, and you had to have your girlfriend back on campus, by-by-by curfew. But, you know, we would go out. We would go to dinner together. We would study together. She would help me with my Spanish, one way or another. She did not help me with my accounting. IG: 23:08 Yes-yes. I understand that there were a number of breakups in that relationship. GS: 23:35 Oh, yeah, that is the religious thing. Yeah, we had being Jewish and her being Catholic, my parents were not really keen on-on the-the-the joining of the two, but there were just something about her which I just could not- IG: 23:50 [laughs] That is funny. GS: 23:52 -could not-could not shake. So we kept on going back. And eventually we decided to get-get married. That was, that was a somewhat traumatic area, because my parents did not want us to get married because of the religious factor, and my father said he would disown us and so forth. But once we got married, he got to know her, found out the wonderful person she was and we did not, you know, we did not have any difficulty from that standpoint. But before we got married, my parents sent me to talk to a cousin who was a rabbi, to try and talk me out of it. And then from her, from her side, we had to go to, I think it called pre cana classes, which did not mean much to me, but you did what you had to do, and so we eventually ironed out all the problems, and things seemed to work. Third speaker 23:53 How did you raise your kids? Did they get the both culture? GS: 24:00 Yeah, they did, but that was basically my wife. I was not very religious. I was not very religious. And if it were not for my wife, I do not think they would have gotten much of the Jewish side. But we celebrated both. They did not go to Jewish religious school. They went to Catholic school. Well, you know the after-school kind of Catholic school, Sunday-Sunday school for a couple of years until they were confirmed, but after that, they did not, they did not go and we tried to show them that there were different ways of looking at things. Everyone has their own stuff, but there was really basically a commonality of all religions. But my kids aren't very religious either. Maybe that is my fault, but Jan was the one who made sure that we celebrated both and that the kids knew of both cultures. IG: 25:51 Yeah. Do you think that-that kind of acceptance of, you know, of just of the coexistence, the possibility of coexist, of two religions, coexisting side by side in a family. Was that in any way influenced by sort of the liberal attitudes on campus at the time, or is that something that came to you. GS: 26:23 That is an interesting- that is an interesting question. I cannot answer that. I do not know if it was my liberality. It was more my love for Jan than anything else that seemed to- I could not shake her out of my mind. She was, she was, she was pretty important to my life. From the time I met her, there was a chemistry there, obviously, and I was just determined to make it work. But two of us were determined, even though I said, "No," this is not going to work. This is not going to work so we would break up. Was not her breaking up with me? Was me breaking up with her because this is just going to be too much of a hassle. But then could not get her out of my mind, so I would be back. And then eventually I just scrapped that idea of this is not going to work, and decided it is going to work. IG: 27:14 Did you have expectations of staying in Binghamton, or did you want to return to Long Island? GS: 27:20 Well, that is sort of, sort of interesting. I- uh, Jan was from Niagara Falls. I was obviously from Long Island; we were physically almost right in the middle. It was four hours to her house, four and a half hours to my house, you know, her parents’ house. So her parents, I think, wanted us up there. I know my parents wanted us down there, and we thought, well, this is a good compromise in between, you know, from a physical standpoint. Plus the city in Long Island really started to get to me. It was just the long lines, the hassle down there, working for my father for a couple of summers, pretty much turned me off from-from wanting to-to be down there. It was just too stressful--was not-was not- I adapted more to the Upstate way of life than it was to the to the to the city way of life. We like to go to visit down there. I mean, museums and things were great, nice place to visit, but we did not want to live there. IG: 28:24 So you stayed in touch with Binghamton, with Harpur College and then Binghamton University through the years, right? I mean, you went back to graduate school. GS: 28:37 Right. IG: 28:37 Would you- your wife mentioned that you had exchange students that- welcome to- into your home. GS: 28:44 Right. IG: 28:45 And some of them came from Binghamton. GS: 28:47 Uh, the exchange students did not come from Binghamton. IG: 28:50 Not the exchange but what was the name of the program? GS: 28:53 There was a rotor- the rotary program, yeah-yeah, that, yeah. The Business rotary had the exchange program where they brought students in. They would go to high school, but they needed homes for the for the kids, and they would rotate them, I think, every three or four months, so they had experience with various families in the United States before they, before they went home. And through, I sort of, I think I gave her the idea, I am trying to, trying to think way back, because my-my school participated in the program. We had kids from the program, and my department and the language department shared an office. So they had, they had asked, does anybody have you know- is anybody interested in hosting some of these kids? So I went home and asked my wife, and she said, "Oh, that would be a great idea." IG: 29:44 Right. GS: 29:44 So this started really when my when my daughter was born. IG: 29:48 Right. GS: 29:49 So 40 some odd years ago, and it was, it was really, really, very nice. The kids came into the house. They- our kids had had exposure to. IG: 30:00 Yeah. GS: 30:01 Kids from all different- IG: 30:04 Parts of the world. GS: 30:05 -parts of the world. And then eventually we went and visited some of them in Brazil and so forth. And of course, Jan had the Spanish we had a lot of Spanish speaking students. We did have one from South Africa. We had one from the Philippines, I think all told we had 11 or 12-12, kids here and we and we also had a professor, a teacher, who stayed with us for a few weeks, because we-we were like a sister school of a German- our German department had a relationship, so the- our teacher went over to Germany, and their teacher came over here Helmut, and he was, he was, he was quite a fella. IG: 30:49 But, you know, looking back, there was not a lot of international students or diversity at Harpur College when you were going there were there any students...? GS: 31:00 I think, I think there was not to the extent that they have today. IG: 31:05 No. GS: 31:06 We developed a friendship with one guy from, from Africa, Yeah, your wife mentioned. Yeah. And he was, he was a super guy, but also very-very bright man, and went-went back. We-we have been in contact on occasions, through-through email. IG: 31:28 Right. GS: 31:29 Other than that, we have not but he was a really gutsy guy. He went back to try and improve a lot of the blacks in-in Africa. And he went into some problems with-with the government, which was a, you know, a white government back there. So he was, he was a very, very brave fellow, but, and just a super-super nice guy. IG: 31:51 So you stayed in touch with him, since, you know what he did after graduating. GS: 31:56 Yeah, he-he went on to graduate school, I believe, in Canada and also in England, he kind of got some degrees. We did have a tendency to lose touch during those-those years. We just hit on each other, you know, once in a while. IG: 32:12 By email, by phone? GS: 32:14 Well, back then, it was basically by-by contact, either someone knew of what he did, or things of that nature, or maybe by phone, email was unheard of back then. IG: 32:26 Right. GS: 32:27 So it was not until, I guess, a few years ago, somehow, we got in touch with him, got that phone. We somehow made contact there. It was interesting. We were down in New York City and visiting my sister-in-law, and there were posters on the telephone poles, and he was giving a talk, and we wanted to see him, so we called, and we for some reason, we just could not make contact there, and I was, I was really disappointed and but I cannot remember how, but we did make contact again once email came about a few years ago, because he was a friend, not only of jam myself, but also the-the group of people who we were with. So somehow, we made and then, you know, by this time is his brother had passed away, and, you know, he had his kids and-and what have you. And then we lost, lost contact again. IG: 33:30 So it seems like you had a close group of friends that- GS: 33:34 Yeah, we did. IG: 33:35 -stay with- what-what do you think maybe it was a special thing about the school that kind of engender that type of relation, GS: 33:44 Yeah-yeah. I think so. IG: 33:44 Not everybody stays in touch with their- GS: 33:49 Yeah, well, I think part of it was-was you needed a support system there, because of, again, the pressure, the pressure of the school, so you needed a support system to maintain your-your sanity and your ability to keep on going. So we developed this-this group of, I do not know about ten of us, I guess, and several of us married each other, you know. So now-now we are couples. So we-we certainly stay in touch. We see each other. We are going to see each other over New Year. One of them, one of the one of the group, became a doctor, so we use enough money to buy a home in the Poconos. So we all, we all meet in the Poconos, and then we then meet again, usually during the summer. And now he is going to retire, so I think they are going to be moving permanently to the Pocono place so well they will be close enough to- [crosstalk] IG: 34:47 -is that, did he come to the (19)67 reunion? I see. GS: 34:50 No-no-no, he did not know. The reason being that they, they had another commitment. Uh, but they had, they had wanted to, but they-they they could not do it, but he had graduated at that time to the (19)67-(19)66-(19)67 time. So he was, they were the only ones at the group who did, who could make it. IG: 35:04 [crosstalk]-interested in- what was his name? GS: 35:13 Oh, Wolraich. Mark Wolraich. IG: 35:16 How do you spell it? Because I might [crosstalk] GS: 35:18 Oh, boy, W, O, L, R, A, I, C, H. IG: 35:23 Mark? GS: 35:24 Mark, yeah, and his specialty is working with-with kids like-like our granddaughter. So when our granddaughter was first born and we started to see difficulties with her, he pretty much knew what was, what the problem was, and-and without him, she would not have gotten the help as soon as she would have. It is so difficult to get young kids to see the doctors and the organizations that will analyze and finally determine that-that she was autistic, and he knew people up in Rochester, and he got us, got us in-in just a couple of months, where, if we had called ourselves, it would have been over a year before she could have been seen, because they were just so backed up. I mean, so few facilities, so many kids like this now. So he has been through any-any calls to see how things are going. He looked at the SUNY has a thing for autistic kids, which-which we did not know until the situation came and then and John said- IG: 36:36 It is new center. It is a new center, right? GS: 36:38 It is a school. IG: 36:39 It is a school. GS: 36:40 It is a school. Yeah, it is down behind the old men's gym. Yeah. So we went and visited there, and we went and visited the Handicapped Children's Center in-in Johnson City, looked at both programs and because she is, she is kind of social, where a lot of autistic kids cannot. Along with Mark's input and so forth, we decided that-that would- the one at Johnson City would be a better fit for her. So it has- he has been just terrific. I do not know what we would have done without him. He just moved mountains for her. IG: 37:19 That is very fortunate. GS: 37:21 Very fortunate. Yeah, it is one of those things, you know. It is who you know. IG: 37:24 It really is. GS: 37:25 We were very fortunate. Yeah, one that he was our friend, and that he just happened to go into this field. He runs a big program out in the university where he where he teaches. IG: 37:26 Where does he teach? GS: 37:30 Uh, trying to remember, he has moved around so often. Jan-Jan [calling his wife], Midwest. IG: 37:47 Well, it does not matter, I mean, um, so maybe you could tell me about some of the ways um, that you have seen the university change over the years. GS: 38:09 Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, it became a university. It was not a university. And we were there when we started, and while we were there, it became the State University of New York at Binghamton. IG: 38:20 Right. GS: 38:21 That was the last couple of years. So they developed a small graduate-graduate program, and you get graduate degrees there. And just a physical plant itself has grown enormously since we were, since we were, we were there. We just had the little-little core the brain was-was there. No, but the brain. IG: 38:22 Yes-yes. GS: 38:23 So just-just basically the-the old buildings and the brain were there with a couple of dorms. Then by the time we finished, or almost finished, they built what we called the self regs, which is the Hinman complex, and-and the cafeteria up there. And of course, they have expanded their-their program tremendously, I mean, to the point where they have a school for-for kids with-with difficulties, right on campus. I mean, we had- we did not know the building was there, let alone that there was a school there. IG: 39:18 And now they are expanding the health sciences to Johnson City. GS: 39:22 Right-right down in Binghamton, they have a campus, so they are going to have one in Johnson City. So now they have a, you know, a nursing program, which was not there when we were there, in addition. So, you know, the physical plan and the academic pursuits have just expanded dramatically since-since we have been there over the years. IG: 39:47 Do you think that it still has the spirit of Harpur College? You know, the reputation that it had of being socially committed students and academically rigorous. How has, you know, the- GS: 40:04 From everything I understand, yeah, it is rated one of the, you know, the highest schools in the state university system. IG: 40:10 Yeah. GS: 40:11 So I would say absolutely. And the kids, when we, when we go over there, we do not get off and talk to this, to the students therapy. You could see it. It seems very academic. They have the libraries in each of the complexes now. Now we just have the library now they have satellite libraries all over. The quality of the faculties remain very high as far as doctorates are concerned. So I would say academically, it is probably as good as- IG: 40:43 As it was. GS: 40:44 As it was, yeah. IG: 40:45 But what really differentiated, you know, Binghamton now from Binghamton at Harpur College when you were going? Because it was a smaller school. GS: 40:55 Much more. That is one of the reasons we went there. IG: 40:57 It was, it was a smaller school, was it would you say that it was politically active more so? GS: 41:05 Yeah. IG: 41:05 Do you think that-that is was a response to the times, to the (19)60s, the culture those sort of the youth culture of the (19)60s? Or do you think that it was, you know, peculiar to unique to the school, or, you know- GS: 41:23 Well, I think that the universities, a lot of the universities at the time, in the (19)60s, with the Vietnam War, Kent State, and a lot- IG: 41:23 Right. GS: 41:23 I know that stuff occurred during, during our, our growing up time, and I think that necessitated all the activity, the political activity that was generated on campus at that time, and now-now, I think again, because of the political situation which we have, it probably has, well, it rejuvenated our political interest and made much more active again, after years of, you know, raising a family and and-and working, we have got much more politically active now as a result of the Republicans taking over. So it is- [crosstalk] IG: 42:17 Do you think seeds were planted at Harpur College? GS: 42:19 Yeah-yeah, I think so, yeah. Plus-plus our-our liberal attitude, all right, we are much more inclusive that society has become. We-we just like everybody. That is one of the reasons we like to travel. We like to meet people, talk people. One of the advantages of taking the cruises that we do is we sit dinner with people from all over the world, and you get to talk politics. Although it was interesting. The cruise we just got back from, nobody taught politics. It was sort of a subject which was not brought up. This is the first time, and just so- IG: 42:56 To Sydney, when you went to Sydney? GS: 42:58 Yeah, we went to Australia and New Zealand. IG: 43:01 Right. GS: 43:02 People just steered away, even people from other countries just did not bring it up, which is totally different. IG: 43:08 Well, maybe they are afraid to hurt you by saying anything negative. GS: 43:12 Yeah. Well, you know, you are on vacation, you do not want to get into an argument. And in all-all truth, we probably would not get into an argument because we probably would agree with them. [laughs] As far as the situation is concerned, we are an awful situation. I am really worried about this country staying together as the United States, and we are so-so polarized that I just will be amazed if we survive this as a united country. So hopefully things will change. Do you remember any legends or great stories about Harpur College at the time? IG: 43:53 But the only one was Lake Lieberman. Talk about that. GS: 43:59 Well, behind- in the Broome complex, behind the Broome complex and behind the Newing dining hall, which is now, I understand it is gone. There was a pond, and the story was the time that one kid fell in, and they said, "Should we get them out?" And said, "No, just leave them in." So that is, that is how, that is how the name came about. That was the story. I do not know what the real story was- [inaudible] Lieberman got but that was the story at the time. So that was one of the thing. And then we had the coat ceremony. IG: 44:41 So did the kid live? GS: 44:42 Oh, yeah. I mean, this was not a pond, still there. It was not very deep, and it was brand new. It was a man-made pot. So that was, that was one story which we had, and that was, that was, that was behind our dormitory, so that there were. Two other, I guess, activities, the stepping on the coat ceremony, which was on the Esplanade, which is now gone, unfortunately, that took place, and that was annually, in the spring, when the cold weather stopped and the warm weather began to officially state that spring was here, they would have a stepping on the coat ceremony, where they take an overcoat, do a few speeches in old, an old English--some, some kid wrote an old, I cannot repeat it. Some of the people remember, I do not know if you have a recording of it, but it is it was quite something. And then they, when it was official, they would step on the coat. Okay. Spring has now arrived. That was, that was the official statement. IG: 45:44 Did you see the ceremony performed at any point? GS: 45:47 Oh yeah. IG: 45:47 Oh you did. Speaker 1 45:47 Oh yeah, I saw it, but I cannot repeat the Old English speech that was given, but oh yeah. That was probably the last couple of years I was there. And then the other- [crosstalk] IG: 46:00 [inaudible] as-as being a student on campus, did you attend this? Oh-oh, so people kind of you know, plugged into the student events. GS: 46:05 Oh, sure. Oh yeah. IG: 46:10 on your [inaudible], yeah. GS: 46:11 When we were there, you had the campus was our life. IG: 46:13 Yes. GS: 46:14 When we were there, that was, again, we did not do much off campus. Campus life was-was the life. And there were no other campuses to go to at the time. So, uh- IG: 46:24 Were you into sports? Were you into any other activities? Really? GS: 46:27 No activities. That is kind of interesting. One of the reasons I went to Harpur was--I was a target shooter, and I was on the rifle team in high school, and Harpur had, at the time, a target range by the time I got- but when I came up here, I found out that they had basically closed it down. So I was quite a, quite a disappointment to me. It was still there, but it was not being used. So I even brought my rifle up with me, which had to be locked up with the, with the campus police, and I never took it out. Yeah, or they would not let you keep in the dorm or anything. So that is where it had to be kept. And then if, well, even the campus police did not have guns back there, all they had was a night stick. Everybody has guns, yeah, on campus. I mean, kids have guns too. IG: 47:20 I do not think so. GS: 47:21 Oh! Third speaker: 47:21 Maybe not on campus, but in America- You go to the Walmart and purchase- GS: 47:26 I know it is a gun crazy culture. I know a lot of our friends, yeah, we call them gun nuts, but a lot of my friends are gun nuts, so it is just part of our crazy cultures. I do not understand it, and I am an old NRA person, but that was the NRA back when I was a member. Was a lot different. That organization has been hijacked from an educational to a political group. Anyway. That is sort of an interesting story of itself. But yeah, from a sports I am not very sports oriented. I am also very, probably because I am very, not very good at sports. I am more into reading and doing my woodwork, things of that nature. I wish they would have to work- a wood shop on campus. We could have worked, worked up, but they-they did not. That would have been really cool. And the but the one other activity, if you are talking about sports, was train you were [inaudible] up train, you would- the cafeterias had fiberglass trays. That was very important, that they were fiberglass, and we would steal them borrow and there was a hill right by Broome that goes down towards the-the old gym and the fields down there. So when it snowed, we would take these trades, we would sit on them, and we would shoot down the hill. So that was that was about the extent of my-my kind of physical activity, but it was kind of funny. At some point, they bought new trays, and they were metal trays that were encased in a rubberized plastic case that was textured and they would not slide. So that was the end of tray, unless you got some other device. But we, I guess maybe they did it to save the trays in the in the cafeteria. IG: 49:32 Probably somebody caught on. GS: 49:35 Yeah. [laughs] IG: 49:38 So, you know, tell me what you miss most about those years. GS: 49:43 It had to be the people and the camaraderie we had with-with our group, that was great. I mean, we still meet with the people, but we have, we have, we have spread out so we do not see each other all the time, but I really miss. Living and being together with all-all of our friends, that was really great. I do not miss the pressure of the, of the academics. I mean, it was, I think 10 or 15 years after I graduated, I would still wake up in the middle of night, well, for my nightmare, saying, oh my god, the papers due tomorrow, only to realize, you know, you graduated, like, 10 or 15 years ago, but you had these nightmares, but the people were terrific. And I think also living, you got to learn to live on your own, away from your parents, you know, without their protection- IG: 50:37 But in a community. GS: 50:39 -but in a community which was which was loving and-and safe for the most part. I miss, I miss that a lot, because the world is not safe anymore. My world is not-not safe the way it was. You like-like any most colleges, you are protected. So. IG: 50:58 It was safe, it was a haven. But the world still was not safe with the Vietnam- GS: 51:03 Oh, absolutely. IG: 51:05 -and- GS: 51:05 Yeah, but- IG: 51:06 I am being very aware that you could be- [crosstalk] GS: 51:09 Oh, drafted. Oh yeah, the draft was-was-was an ever-present worry, yeah. But while you were on campus, as long as you had that deferment from- for being a student deferment. You were, you were safe as soon as you graduated. You were, we were in trouble. But they-they had the-the war boards. Well, one of the ways you could be deferred from-from the armed forces was to take this exam. And if you got a certain score in the exam, then you could continue your student affirming. If you did not do it, then you were up for- to be involuntarily taken into the, into the army and sent over to Vietnam. So I remember those. And then they had the lottery late later on, where they picked your name out of a or your birth date out of a hat. And if they picked your-your date, it was more difficult to get into deferment, you know, so and those people who were later dates than they would be recruited later on, but if they had the number of bodies that they needed to-to satisfy the-the army at that particular point, if you were in the-the end of the-the lottery, you did not get called. IG: 52:36 Did any of your classmates get called during the college? GS: 52:42 Uh, only one that I remember, we were not very close. One of the brothers ended up going over, and then, of course, we lost contact with him once he was recruited. But most of us went on to graduate school so we could continue our-our deferments, or we had occupations such as teaching which-which would defer. So most of us did not go. We mark got into a program whereby he had to do public service while he was in medical school, and that kept him out of the army, per se, but he was in the Public Health Service on an Indian reservation. IG: 53:27 Oh, how interesting. GS: 53:27 Well, they adopted- IG: 53:29 Here in northeast, or...? GS: 53:32 Oh, no-no, out west. Okay, see, I- IG: 53:45 You want to stop this? GS: 53:47 Yeah. Third speaker: 53:54 Okay. IG: 53:59 Soum, tell us about- do you recall any great characters from among your group of friends? Could you tell us about anyone you know who was a real character? GS: 54:15 Māori Cruise. I think he was from Cuba. IG: 54:18 Yeah. GS: 54:19 He was a character. IG: 54:20 How so? GS: 54:24 Never took anything seriously. He was always one of those free flight people who just seemed to enjoy life. I think that was probably his Cuban upbringing. He got a mo- he even got a motorcycle. You know, it was my first and only motorcycle ride. Was holding on for dear life. Māori around, but he was, he was just a fun, a fun guy. I do not even think he lasted for more than a year or two at school. He just enjoyed life too much. But he was a real character. We had a, we had a good time, if you wanted, if you wanted a good time. Māori was the guy to go out with. I think he was Cuba- he was Cuban from Cuba. IG: 54:59 Was he a Cuban American or Cuban from Cuba? So, how did you how did he talk about Cuba? How did you feel about Cuba at the time? Did you think that it was an enemy state? GS: 55:13 I do not think so. We-we did not talk politics. As far as that was concerned with the Māori, everything was-was social. You did not talk to him seriously about things like that. In my memory, he was just happy to be here and was enjoying life. So he- his happiness was very infectious. IG: 55:43 How do you think your classmates would remember you from your years at Harpur College? What would they say about you? GS: 55:50 Oh, gosh, if they even remembered me. IG: 55:53 Basically your friends. GS: 55:54 Well, those people, the ones are still friends. Oh, I think they would remember me. IG: 55:59 How? GS: 55:59 Well, how? I do not know. IG: 56:04 [inaudible] yourself from those years. GS: 56:06 Sort of, I am sort of a jokester. I- not practical jokes, but I use a lot of double intenders. I turn words around and things like that. That is sort of my reputation. But also sort of to a certain thing serious. And you can have serious discussions, which we do whenever-whenever we get together, we all talk politics and so forth. We are all of the same kind of political persuasion. And- IG: 56:36 So, You are pretty much the same person that you- GS: 56:40 I do not, I do not see me changing. I think, I think I am more tolerant. I thought I was tolerant them. I think I am more tolerant now. I think my attitude toward women have changed dramatically. I was used- I was brought up at a time when, you know, women did what they were told. Kind of idea. Wives did what they were they were told they were subservient to the husbands. Jan made quick disposed of that very quickly, [laughter] and obviously it was for the good, you know, but I learned quickly that-that is not the way you treat a woman or a wife. IG: 57:27 So you are emotionally intelligent, not only book smart. GS: 57:30 Well, I like to think so. Plus, I was in a profession where there were a lot of women. IG: 57:34 Right. GS: 57:35 In teaching there were a lot of women, so I always considered them my-my equals. I never considered them subserving to me in any way, shape or form. But then I felt the same way about secretaries and custodians. I never- there were a lot of professionals who think of those people and-and the I hate to use the term lesser occupations as somehow being inferior. And I was always friends with all these people. Yeah, we had to treat them- I mean, they are people who just were in a different field. That is all. That is why I looked at it. So I think most of my friends feel that way. And this, I think when they think of me, they-they think of a person who's very accepting and very tolerant and liberal. IG: 58:24 Good. Just [inaudible] I forget this one thing, you were on a judicial board, the punishment for your wife's infraction. GS: 58:38 Oh, not her infraction, her roommate. IG: 58:40 Her roommate. GS: 58:41 Her roommate, her roommates, infraction, yeah, yeah, judicial review board, we had [talking to his wife] No. [his wife replies] Okay. Okay, I have to read this later. Uh, supposedly we were self-governing. Okay. When it came to the real thing, of course, the administration took over. But for minor infractions of the rules, a student was brought before the judicial review board. Nine out of 10 of these things, maybe 99 out of out of 100 were curfew infractions. So we had to come up with some way to punish the girls because their boyfriends brought them home late. I mean, looking back, I was so absurd, [laughs] but we did not take it really all too seriously. Because, I mean, even then, we knew that curfew was kind of, kind of kind of dumb, so we imposed a penalty on Jan's roommate, who came back late, of having to make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm. I mean, this is a kind of a [inaudible]. We had this little, little cubby hole of a kitchen with this little tiny oven, and I knew that Jan mother had sent her with cookie trays and mixing bowls and so forth. So I thought, gee, this would be a good, a good thing. I like chocolate chip cookies. The dorm likes chocolate chip cookies, so why do not we have her make chocolate chip cookies for the dorm? So I did not realize at the time how much work was involved. We probably would have thought of something else, but it was sort of like almost in jest, almost in fun, because a silly infraction, you make a silly punishment. I mean, what do you- what kind of things are you going to do? How did you join this judicial board? You applied. IG: 1:00:49 You applied. GS: 1:00:49 You applied. Yeah, you know, they had different organizations on campuses like the radio or-or the newspaper thing. And I applied. And I do not even know how you got accepted. Right. Just all of a sudden, I was I said, "Sure, I will join that." And you were there. IG: 1:01:08 You were there. Well- GS: 1:01:11 So long ago. IG: 1:01:14 I am, you know, I think that we are going to wrap up soon. I would like to know if there are any concluding remarks that you might have about Harper College and your experience there, and you know how it impacted the rest of your life? GS: 1:01:32 Well, obviously it had a great impact in my life. My best friends, I met there, and we kept, we have kept in touch for 50 years, met my wife there, and we have been married for 50 years, but looking back on it, we had a super-duper education for a super-duper bargain price. The tuition was only $200 a semester at the time-- region, scholarship took care of that, so it was room and board, which I think was $400 or $435 a semester plus books. Why we do not continue to do that is beyond me. I know there is a cost involved, but here we had a situation where superb education a price that anyone could-could pay for and then we went on to make a country. Why do not we continue to do that? Encourage people to do that. I mean, people cannot just go out in the world without an education, especially now. So why do not we willingly and happily educate our populace at a reasonable price, right? Why burden them with years of debt? It is crazy. So I am definitely appreciative of the education I got, and every time I think of the costs, it just makes me laugh, because how- it was what an opportunity we had, what an opportunity we had, and we did not. I do not think we realized it at the time, how great, because we thought that would continue forever. State University is always going to be $200 a semester, and the quality of the education was just terrific. Could not, could not do better. And I assume the quality of education that the kids are getting there to State University today is at least equal to what we had, although the cost is-is a lot more, well, still cheaper than private schools, but because my son went to Ithaca, so we know how that is. But what an opportunity. I am indebted to the state of New York for the education they provided me, both elementary high school and college. Could not be what I am today without them. IG: 1:03:59 Well, thank you very much. GS: 1:04:00 Oh my pleasure. My pleasure. IG: 1:04:02 Thank you so much for your time welcoming us into your lovely home. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geoffrey H. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Geoffrey H. ; Gashurov, Irene Description An account of the resource At Harpur College, Geoffrey studied accounting. A summer job as a counselor with the college’s Upward Bound Program for disadvantaged youth decided him on a career in teaching. He taught accounting at Broome Community College and Endicott High School for 33 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:09 minutes Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4ad3dade9e07c21989df7f163995debd.mp3 8e699e5a681a4d200333ead51d8b6e7c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2017-12-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janice L. Strauss Year of Graduation 1968 Biographical Text Janice is a Niagara Falls native. She worked as a Spanish teacher in Broome County. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Janice Strauss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 December 2017 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:03 You will keep track of time? Okay. So-so please tell me your name, your birth date- Third speaker: 00:05 Yeah. JS: 00:13 Okay. IG: 00:14 -and where, and where we are. JS: 00:16 I am Janice Strauss, and my birth date was December 17, 1946 and we were in my home in Endicott, on Bean Hill Road. IG: 00:29 So, could you tell me where you grew up? JS: 00:34 Well, I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but only lived there for five years, and my parents moved to Niagara Falls, New York, and that is where I grew up, in an infamous area now called Love Canal, which we did not know about at the time. [laughs] IG: 00:49 So-so could- when did you come to Harpur College? JS: 00:55 I came to Harpur College in 1968, no 1964-1964 I graduated in 1968. Came in the summer of 1964 because Harpur College was still on trimester. And so, they had three semesters a year, one the first one started in July of 1964. IG: 01:20 So, what- do you have any memories, sort of, you know, brief snapshots of what the campus looked like when you first arrived, or, you know, from-from the time that you were there? JS: 01:30 Well, it was certainly much smaller than it is now. It was all red brick. The buildings were all red brick. There were none of these other designs. Um, and it was in perpetual- it was under a state of perpetual construction. There was always an area that was being added, um modified. I remember them planting trees one summer and pulling them out the next year because they were going to put a building right where they had just planted the trees. So, it is constant-constantly changing. IG: 02:07 Great planning. JS: 02:08 Yeah, we wondered [inaudible] wise guy, college kids, every once in a while, wondered about that. [laughs] IG: 02:15 So um, what were um- what was- tell me what were some of the significant events during the time that you were there that you remember that stand out? Um, historical events? JS: 02:31 Oh, historical events. Well, the entire time there was overshadowed by the Vietnam War, protests. People constantly leaving campus to go on busses to Washington, DC, running around, borrowing things from other people, everything from handkerchiefs in case they had to be prepared for tear gas to-- we were all rummaging through things to find things to send them off. As far as campus itself, we had a visit from Governor Rockefeller, Nelson Rockefeller at the time, because he had a hand in expanding campuses all over the state. And sometimes they called it Rockefeller's rock pile or mud pile, because with all that construction and building, something was always torn up in a mess, and when it rained, it would be muddy and-and I remember that a lot--people being concerned about that. Other significant historical events, the one that just hangs over my head is Vietnam. IG: 02:35 And how did you feel about the Vietnam War? JS: 02:38 I thought it was a dumb idea. Then I know that I know more, I think it was an even dumber idea. [laughs] I was not- I was still a little green. I just knew that we were sending a lot of people over there to kill other people, and the domino theory was-was right up front and center at the time. Our government was constantly telling us that if Vietnam fell to communism, then the whole rest of Southeast Asia would become communists, and we had to be worried and concerned about that. But even then, it was clear that it was a guerilla type war that our government did not even understand, and yet, standing back and looking in, you could see what was happening and-and the- the um- and it made for-for so many more deaths, because we did not seem to understand the strategy. We were fighting two different wars, and it meant that more people were being killed on our side, and more people were being killed on their side as they dumped Agent Orange. And I even remember us protesting against the Dow Chemical corporation because they were producing Agent Orange- IG: 04:50 During your time on campus? JS: 04:52 Yes-yes. So that was the biggest thing by far. IG: 04:56 Do you think that you became politicized on campus? Was, or did it stem from your upbringing? JS: 05:06 More so on campus-- just before I went to Harpur College, I had been an exchange student to Ecuador, and that opened my eyes. That was, that was the beginning, because then I saw what was happening to USAID money. Money was not going to the common person. I learned a different way to think-- everything from as simple as a space you know how we are sitting right now, we were fairly comfortable not in Ecuador, if you were friendly, you have to be here different. And because of how I was raised, I take a step backward, and they would take a step forward, and pretty soon I would be against the wall every day. [laughs] Things that you never thought about at all. I was very green when I went to Ecuador, and that started me thinking more along political and different lines. Kind of opened my eyes that there were there were different things out there that I never knew about. IG: 06:01 So, you spoke Spanish before you went to Ecuador. JS: 06:07 No-no, I had studied three years of German, [laughs] a year of Latin, a year of Latin, and three years of German. And yeah, I learned it quick, quickly, very quickly, um, yeah. So- IG: 06:19 Obviously, a talent for languages. JS: 06:22 Yeah, so when I came- eventually became a Spanish teacher. IG: 06:27 What? What did your- what was your home life like? What did your parents do? JS: 06:33 My dad was a factory worker. He worked for DuPont. It was a terrible job. I did not totally realize it and appreciate it at the time. At that time, though, they paid laborers decently so they could earn a living-- we had a small house. We owned our own home. I was the oldest of five kids, and my mom, for most of my childhood was a homemaker. It was only when they started cutting back at DuPont, and my father got a lesser job, but my mother went back. She already had her college degree, and she went back into teaching. And so, when I was in high school, my mother went back to work but I was the oldest. The youngest was only in kindergarten at the time, but- so I was- as the oldest child, I often took care of my younger siblings, but not until I was in high school. I mean, I led a pretty sheltered life, quiet, lower middle-class neighborhood, with my dad working his tail off, I think, which eventually killed him. He died when he was only 62 and by then, his hair roots had started to turn green from all the chemicals and he made, he made sodium for DuPont, and they did something called tickle the cells, which meant that they stirred up big, giant furnaces, and the sodium would pop up at them. And you would see them hanging out as you drive by the factories, you would see them hanging out the windows trying to breathe better. And I did not appreciate when he brought- he wore long underwear every day to protect himself from the burns. And when he came home each night, you could ring the sweat out there was that much. I mean, that is so you can imagine how hot it had to have been inside and all that kind of stuff. And as a kid, I do not- look back and look back at it. As an adult, I can appreciate so much more what he did and what he went through than I did as-as-as a kid, you know, but there were a lot of those in Niagara Falls. IG: 08:35 It was a family that valued education. JS: 08:38 Very much so. Yeah-yeah. IG: 08:42 Because you went on to college and became a Spanish teacher. And your siblings? JS: 08:46 They all went to college-- all of them. I have a brother who has just retired as a- was a registered nurse. I have a brother who became an engineer. Lives in Boston. He worked for the EPA up until this year. I have a sister who was a systems analyst who has retired and now lives here. She lived in New York City her whole adult life, and my youngest sister got a degree in accounting and did the books and things for a car company. So yeah. IG: 09:19 So, returning a little bit to campus. What was residential life like? Who were your friends? You know how did you spend time outside of class? JS: 09:35 Well, we made lifelong friends. IG: 09:36 Yes. JS: 09:37 I pulled this out in case you wanted to see. I did not know how this works, so I did not know what you wanted to see or do. [crosstalk] Oh, whatever works for you. But um, we have, we still have at least a dozen friends or more from-from those days-- that people we met on campus. Um, at the time, and I think it still is-- Harpur College was a geek school, and anytime you were not studying, you knew somebody else was studying and screwing up that bell shaped curve that you had to get over that hump [laughs] it was going to be- your grades were not going to be so good. And so, there was a lot of pressure, and we released pressure in good ways, fun ways, silly ways. I am not even sure they are acceptable today, the guys had, well, we had a curfew. IG: 10:09 Yes. JS: 10:10 The women had a curfew, which was- we were on campus this fall, the ladies were shocked. They said you had a curfew, because my wise guy husband had said to them, oh, we used to lock up the women. And they laughed. And when I was going like this with my arms folded, they looked at me and looked back at him and said, “You are not kidding.” And he said, “No,” he was not kidding. We had a curfew at 11 o'clock, and then the guys went out. When they came back, they would do things like have panty rays. You familiar with those? Oh my gosh, they the guys would come back, they would maybe been to town for a couple drinks or something, and so they were having fun, and they knew all the women were locked up in the dorms, and they come under our windows, and yeah, "We want panties. We want bras" and-and girls would throw them out. And-and I thought it was so dumb and silly. I went down to the basement one time with my roommate, and this is how we bonded and did so many things together. You asked, you know what? What it was like? We went into the lost and found in the laundry room, found some old bras, got some name tags. A lot of these young men had been in summer camps, and they had their names sewn in all their clothes. So, we took some of those labels out of their clothes and sewed them onto the bras and shot them out the window. So, the bra had a guy's name a label on it. And it was really funny, because the next day, some guy would come up to another guy and say, I found your bra last night. [laughs] So we did goofy, silly things like that that were just, you know, let off steam, but did not take too much time. [laughs]So that is kind of stuff we did. IG: 12:10 So, you know, how did you feel about curfews at the time? JS: 12:15 Even at the time, I found it annoying. You found annoying, but you just sort of accepted it, like we did not have any demonstrations about it, or anything like that, but I remember being especially annoyed with him one time. I still married him anyway. Because, because my roommate had been kept out late by her boyfriend. She had been saying to him, "I have to get back for curfew." IG: 12:35 Right. JS: 12:36 And um, he brought her back late, and at 11 o'clock they locked that door, man-- you could not get in. So, you had to ring the buzzer, and the house mother would come to the door. The head resident would come open the door, write you up that you would come late, and you got sent before the judicial review board for your punishment. So, he was on the judicial review board, all right, so he knew me, and he knew that I had in my closet, in my room, things for making cookies. So, he used to everyone, so I will make cookies in that little kitchenette in the basement. So, he sentenced her to make chocolate chip cookies for the entire dorm. And they all thought it was really funny we were- so I helped her. We were down there steaming the whole time while we made these chocolate chip cookies for the whole dorm. [laughs] In a sense, the punishment was silly, goofy, but we were still annoyed. [laughs] IG: 13:32 Right. And apparently that a peer of yours made- JS: 13:36 Right. [laughs] IG: 13:37 -made the judgment- JS: 13:38 Yeah-yeah. IG: 13:41 What were some of the expectations for you, for, maybe for-for you when you went to college, before going to college? So did you think of having career-- what was nor- the norm for women at the time, or maybe you were outside of the norm-- because of your Ecuador experience. JS: 14:00 And, yeah, in my group, and in-in, you know, this lower middle-income kind of thing, not everybody went to college. A lot of them went off and started working right away. But I remember my father, who got drafted out of college and never finished college. I think that is one reason he ended up as a laborer, telling me how proud he was that I was the first person on his side of the family to ever graduate from college, and he was very excited that I was going to college. And so, what expectations were just that I would do well. I had really good grades in high school. I did not have really good grades at Harpur. I had, I struggled to get over that hump on the bell-shaped curve. I remember one time getting 91 points out of 100 and it was a C plus. And I was so upset, I went to see the professor, and I handed him my paper, and I said, "Look, I only missed nine points on the whole test." And he pulled out of his drawer a graph and went through from the graph for my class, and said, "Look at this graph." And I looked at it, and the majority had gotten 90 or above. And he showed me how I fell exactly, just above the hump that he called a C, with that 91 points. And that is how they did the grading. He graded. He-he charted the-the grades of every student along this curve, and that is how you received your grade, not how many points you got on a test, but where you fell on that bell shaped curve. And I remember being so frustrated. [laughs] I did find the actual system there pretty frustrating. Even when I was there, when I look back on, I go, "Huh," but even when I was there, I remember thinking, this is really annoying. [laughs] IG: 15:48 So, at the time, did Harpur College have a reputation of being a tough school academically? JS: 15:55 Yeah-yeah. In fact, my guidance counselor at my high school called Niagara wheatfield. I lived at- the name of the town was actually Wheatfield, right outside of Niagara Falls. I remember my guidance counselor saying to me, “You are not going to get in there.” But I did get accepted and-and so I went. But I think with a 90, with a lower 90 high school average, I was on the lower end of the people accept it at Harpur College. So, I struggled, but I graduated, and some of those other people did not. [laughs] IG: 16:27 So, do you think that they did not graduate? Did Harpur College have also the reputation of being a party school or? JS: 16:34 No, not at all. No, not at all. IG: 16:37 Very studios. JS: 16:37 Yeah, no. IG: 16:40 What did you study? JS: 16:42 Well, mostly Spanish [crosstalk], but I started [crosstalk] IG: 16:46 [inaudible] academically [inaudible] JS: 16:48 Um, it was tough, but it was um, not what I expected. I expected I had come back just from Ecuador, speaking a lot of Spanish, and I wanted to build on that and improve on that. And instead, it was strictly a literature curriculum. It was read-read-read- IG: 17:02 Right-right. In English? JS: 17:08 -and no in Spanish. IG: 17:10 Uh-huh. JS: 17:10 You would read the novels in Spanish, but some professors conducted class in English and some in Spanish. It was, it was a mix. IG: 17:18 Right. JS: 17:19 And so, it was not what I had hoped. I had hoped to get much stronger in my Spanish, and I developed some strengths from the reading, some vocabulary, but not- I did not become [crosstalk], yeah, I- we did not- I took every conversation course they offered while I was there--usually they were only two credit courses, where our courses at the time were four credits. IG: 17:41 Right. JS: 17:42 Because they were on that trimester thing. We had four courses each semester, and each course was worth four credits. So, we did 16 credits per semester, and they only offered these two credit conversation courses, and I think I wound up with a total of eight credits in conversation. So, it was not exactly what I had hoped I still had the opportunity to use the language, but it was different than what I expected. IG: 18:05 Do you have any professors that stand out in your memory as being exceptional? JS: 18:13 Oh, absolutely. A bunch of- IG: 18:15 Give us some examples. JS: 18:16 -bunch of them who are excited in what they did and very good. And there was a fellow who died shortly after I graduated. His last name was Bachelor, Dr. Bachelor, and he was so enthusiastic. He would read these books and say, does not this like tug at your heartstrings. I mean, what motion [crosstalk] IG: 18:33 Remember the books that he went- JS: 18:35 Oh, God. That is tough. IG: 18:36 What were the classes? the literature [crosstalk] JS: 18:40 What were the classes- IG: 18:40 The literature classes? What-what writers did you... JS: 18:45 Oh, my goodness, that is tough. I remember that the categories, I remember we did one whole thing on-on South American literature, one on the Golden Age in Spain. I mean, the courses that they were centered around those particular things. I mean, we read all the classic ones. Read Cervantes, if you can believe it, we read the Quixote from start to finish- IG: 19:07 That is incredible. JS: 19:07 -three-three tones. [laughs] There was a lot of reading, a lot. IG: 19:13 For- you know, how many people did you have, how many students did you have in a class--for example, by today's standards? JS: 19:20 For example, by today's standards, pretty small, I am going to say between 15 and 20 in a class. Yeah-yeah. IG: 19:30 So, what other, what other, you know, faculty really made an outstanding impression? JS: 19:36 Oh, gosh, what I remember, hmmm [crosstalk] IG: 19:41 -friends with anyone after you know- JS: 19:44 Faculty, people? IG: 19:45 Faculty, yes. JS: 19:46 Hmm, I do not know that I did--Jeff did. I think Jeff actually went to a couple of their homes and things like that. But um, no. IG: 19:57 So, you did not, you did not- JS: 19:59 Yeah, I mean, on campus, we would visit with them and go to their office and talk with them. There was a German professor that I loved. I had to drop German after about a year because I could not fit in. If you wanted to graduate with a major in Spanish- IG: 20:14 Right. JS: 20:14 -you had to have another romance language. IG: 20:16 I see. JS: 20:17 And I could not carry three languages and still do all the other required courses that I needed. IG: 20:24 So, which other romance language... JS: 20:26 I picked up Italian. So, I did Italian for a while. IG: 20:29 So, do you think that Romance were strengths of Harper College at the time? JS: 20:35 Romance Languages? IG: 20:36 Yes. JS: 20:38 Well, they have very strong Romance Language department. IG: 20:40 Very strong. JS: 20:41 Oh, yeah, sure, yeah. IG: 20:43 So, if you did not go to faculties' homes, you know what-how you know, what was your recreation like? You- did you belong to any clubs or organizations? How did you unwind? Yeah. JS: 21:01 A couple clubs that- not a lot. Honestly, it was study-study-study. There really, was not- IG: 21:08 Really? JS: 21:08 -a lot of spare time for other things. We-we joined a few organizations, um, I belonged to the Newman Club, but they met maybe once a week for an hour. IG: 21:19 What was Newman Club? JS: 21:19 Newman Club was affiliated with the Catholic Church. Um and um, I cannot even remember what we did together. [laughter] Terrible. What-what sticks in my mind are the things we did together as friends, like that silly stuff I told you about the panty raids and-and, or one time when there was a terrible snowstorm, we all walked all the way from campus into Downtown Binghamton and found the only restaurant still open, and-and, you know, had had a good time there. IG: 21:23 I see. What was Binghamton like at the time? Was it very rural or...? JS: 22:01 No. Actually, I think it had more greater population than it does now. Actually, did not have the state- the tall state office tower buildings yet, or anything like that, but it was a busy place. But they did not- there was not too much town and gown mingling. They did not really care for Harpur College students. They-they always referred to us as the Harpur hippies. IG: 22:25 Oh, I see, yes. JS: 22:26 Um, when I went to the public library in Downtown Binghamton to get a library card, and she was very friendly and said, you know, fill out this form, do not worry. And I had put, you know, Box 187 Harpur College. And she went, "Oh, Harpur College," her whole demeanor, her whole tone, everything changed. I remember going for an interview for a job after I first graduated, and some kids hanging out of school, and some kids hanging out with school bus go, "There she is. There she is. That is the Harpur hippie. That is the Harpur" and I did not look like a hippie other than that. I had long hair, but that was about it. IG: 23:01 That is, that is very interesting, and it opens up a number of questions. So, you would go to the public library, would you, you know, would you use the library on campus? And what was it like? JS: 23:17 Oh, yeah, I go to the public library for novels and things like that. IG: 23:21 Yeah. JS: 23:21 I go to the one on Harpur College for everything else. All my school needs, whatever books we were supposed to read, or if I did not understand something I was reading, I would go there to look for an analysis of what I was reading. It was I looked at the one on campus much more academically. And by the way, there only was one I bring now, like I have lost track. Everybody has a library. The science building, there was just one, and it was all open stacks. And that is not true with all everything anymore. IG: 23:51 Going back to Harpur hippie. So how did the college acquire this reputation? Was it for the anti-war activism, do you think? JS: 24:02 I think in large part, I the first I remember hearing of Harper College back home in Niagara Falls or in the town of Wheatfield [chuckles] was when they sent people to protest the house on Un-American Activities Committee hearings in Washington, DC, and that is when they started to gain that reputation that they were this extreme liberal group, they did not use the term progressive back then or anything. But I remember people say- yeah, at that time, it was a small college. The reason I picked it is I applied at three state universities. First of all, only state universities, because they were the cheapest. IG: 24:41 Yes. JS: 24:42 And then when I was accepted at all three Albany, Buffalo and Harpur, I picked Harpur because it was the smallest, and you asked me about the class size- IG: 24:50 Yes. JS: 24:50 -that had, that had a lot of meaning for me, the fact that there was a lot of interpersonal exchange with the professors and all that kind of stuff. And to this day, I really appreciated that we got to know our professors. IG: 25:01 Were your parents involved at all in your college decisions? JS: 25:07 To the extent that they said I could apply anywhere I wanted, as long as it said SUNY in front of it. IG: 25:13 Okay. JS: 25:13 That was a financial. That was a financial. IG: 25:16 Did they know about Harpur's sort of liberal reputation? JS: 25:22 I am sure they have, they had heard of it. They were both well-read but-but I do not think they care. IG: 25:27 They were fine about it. JS: 25:28 Yeah, I do not think they cared one way or another. They did go with me once to visit the campus before I started there. IG: 25:35 So, what did you do after you graduated? You said that you found a job as a school teacher. Did you go- so what was your just career and trajectory like? In essence- JS: 25:52 Wow! That is, um... IG: 25:54 Did you- were you a Spanish school teacher all your life, or... JS: 25:58 Yeah, pretty much, although once I was, um into education--a flyer came across my desk for- from Nazareth College, which is based up in Rochester. IG: 26:10 Right. Right. JS: 26:11 But they were offering what they called satellite courses in Ithaca for English as a second language, and I always enjoyed that. In fact, I had volunteered to teach some kids at the public library who were who had come to this country, who needed English as a second language. And I enjoyed it. And I thought, well, that would be interesting. So, I took those courses and got certified in ESL as well. So um, that did me well, because I only worked part time for a while when my kids were little, and I had been working 80 percent at Union Endicott, when this flyer came across my desk, and then there was an opening out in Owego full time. And so, I moved out there, and they started using me as ESL as well, since I had my certification. And then when I retired from teaching Spanish out in Owego, um SUNY Cortland called and said they- their modern language department taught both Spanish and English as a Second Language, and they could use me with both certifications and all that kind of stuff. So, to this day, I still work part time for SUNY Cortland, and my ESL still serves me well, so I use both. I use. IG: 27:25 Excellent. JS: 27:25 Yes. IG: 27:27 So, do you think um, that um, you mentioned that the school had a very strong academic reputation? How do you think that you know, it shaped you for your, you know, for your future life? Do you think it- could we say that-that it- JS: 27:49 Oh, sure. IG: 27:50 -a formative that you had a formative experience there, because some people just go through college without [crosstalk] JS: 27:55 Yeah, I think some of the people who graduated did so because they learned I had to stick to it and really keep working hard and um, and it forced me to, create, develop that kind of persona- IG: 27:56 Yes. JS: 27:59 -where I am going to stick to it and I am going to get it and I- you know, I am going to get over that stupid hump on the bell shape. It certainly shaped me that way. For me that way. IG: 28:26 Do you think that the liberal arts, you know, academics, open doors that-that would not have been opened otherwise, or is that fair to say? JS: 28:36 Open minds- IG: 28:37 Open minds, open minds... JS: 28:38 -for sure. I to this day, I highly recommend that people have a kind of liberal arts education. You need to know about everything in this world. And when you get a liberal arts education, you are exposed to psychology, sociology, you name it. We had to have a little bit of everything in the first two years before we could go on and specialize. And I think everybody needs that if you are going to understand each other and understand other programs. And yeah, I would highly recommend it. IG: 28:42 Is the open mindedness, what attracted you to your husband when you met him? JS: 29:22 Open mindedness. Is he open minded? [laughs] IG: 29:27 I am assuming. Well, I do not know. What attracted me to Jeff? I would say no. I would say more his well- yes, he had to be open minded if he was close minded. No, absolutely not. That would, that would be a detraction so that so I guess maybe you are right. I had not thought about it that way. It is more his gentleness, kindness, concern for other people. That kind of stuff is what really attracted me to him. How did you meet? JS: 29:53 Um, he was a terrible language student, and this is true. [laughs] This is how we met. And I sat here, and he sat there, and he kept moving my arm because he did not understand anything the professor was saying. And he poked me [inaudible] "What did she say? What did she say?" So, I quick translated into English for him, and he would peek and see what-what I had done for homework. He did not get to move my arms during tests, though, or-or he would find out when I was going to the language lab. That was part of our classes too. So, he could sit beside me and because you would have these earphones on headsets, and he would say, "Okay, what did they say? What they say?" [laughs] And then, I remember coming back to the dorm one night and seeing him there, that guy in the Spanish class. Who does not know any Spanish? IG: 30:42 When did you meet? When- remember, were you a freshman, or... JS: 30:46 Oh, yeah, it was first semester. Because it was so small--the summer, the summer sessions were small because once you get accepted there, then you can pick what semesters you are going to attend. And many people just chose to attend two semesters a year rather than do the whole three in part because of the war, they did not want to graduate early, as long as they were a student, they still had a deferment. Um, so um, some people would go all three semesters. Some people would only go two semesters, and the summer semester, therefore was small, and you got to know almost everybody on campus, and he was living in the same dorm as I-- Johnson. And one wing, they called this a co-ed dorm. I know this isn't how it works now, but one wing was women and one wing was men, and the men were not allowed on the women's floor. The Women's were not allowed on the men's side, but that was our co-ed dorm. And after 11:00 curfew, there was some dispute as to who went where, but I seem to recall, the women were only allowed in the upper lounge, and the men were allowed in the lower area where the rec room and the snack machines were. Um, I guess it depended on which dorm you were in, because whoever was not allowed where the snack machines were would yell down and actually drop money and ask them to buy candy bars or something. We would throw them up. [laughs] So he was in the same dorm, so I saw him every time was coming and going, and then he was also in my experimental psychology class too. So. IG: 32:24 Was he allowed to visit you in your dorm? JS: 32:30 Well, I remember [crosstalk] he was, he was living in the same dorm, but he was only allowed in a men's wing, and we were allowed in the women's wing. IG: 32:36 Oh, in other words, he could not come into the women's room. JS: 32:40 No. IG: 32:40 No, I did not [crosstalk] JS: 32:41 I am going to say once, I do not remember exactly how often, but I am going to say about once a month they had open house. But even then, even then, if say I-I invited him to my room, which I was allowed to do during open house. When he came up, we were supposed to stand at the entrance to that floor and yell "Man on the floor" so that anybody could close their doors if they knew a man was coming through. So yeah, we did that. We yelled "Man on the floor," [laughs] and then he could come in and visit. IG: 33:17 Did anybody think of contesting those rules, or you did not really... JS: 33:23 I do not know. I remember when they opened the Hinman complex. Again, Jeff might be able to answer this better than I, with him being on a Ju-judicial review board and things like that. At some point the decision was made, and I do not know by whom to allow that to be a co-ed dorm where- again, only women in one suite and one floor, but we were, we were allowed to make our own rules. And so, we called them the self regs, because somebody first asked me which dorm I had lived in over there. And I said, "No, we call it the self reg" so um, [laughs] we actually made rules that-that did away with curfew for women over there. That was the that was a first on campus when we first moved into the Hinman complex. So that is when it started to change while we were still there. [laughs] IG: 34:19 That is incredible. So, did you feel empowered? JS: 34:22 Absolutely. [laughs] Yep. IG: 34:27 So, getting back to Jeff, so how you know- how did your relationship develop? You know, did you become girlfriend and boyfriend in college or... JS: 34:41 Yeah-yeah. IG: 34:41 did you [inaudible] after graduation? JS: 34:43 He invited me on a hayride, they actually had a hayride on campus. Yeah, that was our first date. Was on a hayride. And, yeah, it was on again, off again. Because this is the first thing that came to my mind when you said open mindedness. Jeff was Jewish and I was Catholic. IG: 34:57 Yes. JS: 34:58 Um, and it was not seemed to be a problem for my parents. My father was Presbyterian or something, and as far as my mother was concerned, that meant they were a mixed marriage, because we used to, they used to make fun of me because my mom called it a mixed marriage, and to most of the kids on campus, a mixed marriage was black and white or something like that. So, but we have done that DNA test, and Jeff is something like 97.6 percent Ashkenazi Jew. I mean, there was no mingling, and his parents were beside themselves that he was going to hang out with a "shiksa." [laughs] And so it was on and off again. We go out for three, four weeks. And then he-he would actually call and say, you know, we have to break up because, you know you are not Jewish and all this kind of stuff. And then he called me again, and he said, you want to go see the movie on campus. And I would say, "Is this a date?" He said, "Oh no, absolutely not." I said, "Oh, well, then who else is going," "Well, nobody else." And I say, "Sounds like a date to me?" "No, it is not a date." [laughs] So that is what I thought at first when you said, open minded. IG: 36:10 No-no [inaudible] JS: 36:11 It really did not play a role one way or another. [laughs] IG: 36:16 So how long did it take you before he- before you became a couple? JS: 36:23 That- it was definite that was on again off again, I am going to say, a couple of years before he decided, okay, it is on. He will tell you; it was my red hair. [laughs] I used to have red hair that he just could not resist. I do not know. [laughs] IG: 36:40 So that that is, so that is, that is very interesting, and we are- I will ask him this question, but where is he from? JS: 36:52 He is from Long Island. IG: 36:53 From Long Island. JS: 36:54 We were different economic strata as well. His dad was a CPA, and did very well. IG: 37:01 Yeah. JS: 37:02 And that bothered his parents, too. I am positive, but. IG: 37:08 So, um, I think I am just thinking of what else I can ask you-- so-so you know, did your-your lives, your lives continued um, in Binghamton? You stayed both in Binghamton and your husband, found work here, and you settled down. Um, did you continue having ties with the college itself? I know that you have friends, but did you have occasion to, you know, visit for some kind of alumni event, or... JS: 37:49 We still do, we still do. I think that is probably how you found this. We still go over. Yeah um, there have always been plays to see, concerts to do. And as we came to know more and more people in the community, even they would be a draw. For example, my son's friend was in the music program, and so we would go over whenever he was doing a recital, even if it was for his thesis or something, you know. So, there were all kinds of reasons to-to draw us over there. We have done partnerships with they have partnership program with foreign students, and we have done that several times. IG: 38:28 Could you explain that? JS: 38:29 Well, um, you just [inaudible] as an alumni. They will send you things, saying, "Would you help out with this program or something?" And if you say yes, then they match you up with-with a student. For example, there was a student, Shen-Shen Zhou, who's now going for her doctorate here. Who- when she first came here from China, they said, "Well, she has no family in the area? You would be in lieu of her family." If there is a holiday, and you know, there is- campuses emptying out, have her over. So, we had her for Thanksgiving, Christmas, things like that. And eventually she met an American guy and married him, but we went to the wedding and-and there was another young lady from Pakistan that we got matched up with, and she is now living in Boston, and she is- we are together on Facebook. We do not see her as much as we see Shen-Shen, but. IG: 39:21 So-so um, you know, what was your activity with the students? Like, did you take them out to restaurants, or [crosstalk] JS: 39:30 We brought them here. IG: 39:31 You brought them here. JS: 39:32 Brought them here. [crosstalk] No-no, they lived on campus. IG: 39:36 But to have dinner here for the family. JS: 39:38 Yeah. Uh-hmm. IG: 39:40 Over what period of time? JS: 39:42 Depended on who they matched us up with and how long they stayed here. IG: 39:47 Of course, was this, after your- first of all, how many children and did- went to Binghamton, where did your- JS: 39:59 [crosstalk] our own children? IG: 40:01 Yes-yes. JS: 40:02 My son went to- well, he started at Broome Community College. IG: 40:06 Yes. JS: 40:06 And graduated from Ithaca- IG: 40:08 I see. JS: 40:09 -in communications. So, he works for Channel 34 news station- IG: 40:13 Oh! That is great. JS: 40:14 -here, he is a news producer. He is not on camera, but he does- he makes commercials and all that kind of stuff, which is kind of fun, because when I see really bad one on TV, you know those car commercials that are so hokey, I will call and say, "Did you do that commercial?" [inaudible] "Mom, we do whatever the customer wants." [laughs] "I know what you are going to say." And our daughter that you met her already lives about five minutes down the road and is a secretary in the guidance office at Union Endicott High School. IG: 40:44 Oh! JS: 40:44 So, they are both- both local, which is very nice. That means our grandchildren are local. IG: 40:51 So, they did not go to Binghamton University. JS: 40:53 No-no. IG: 40:54 I misunderstood. JS: 40:56 No, they were there. They know of it, but yes, no, neither one of them attended classes there. No. IG: 41:02 So apart from the foreign student program, do you look upon Binghamton sort of as a cultural center? JS: 41:12 Oh, yeah, for sure. IG: 41:14 After graduation. JS: 41:14 Yeah, we have gone to plays, you know, orchestra type performances, some alumni events. Yeah, whatever we see is going on over there. We will, we will stop by, and we are sort of a hub for all these friends I told you about who now live everywhere else, like we really got together this fall. For many of them graduated in 1967. Jeff and I graduated in (19)68 but some of them went through that- went faster through the trimester program, and so this was their 50th, so they wanted to do something for their 50th. So, we had a house full, and we all met over on campus and attended some of the activities there. IG: 42:03 So-so did you know, actually, did you have a vision of what your life after graduation would be like? Or did it kind of just fall into place? JS: 42:19 For me, I cannot. I know a lot of people plan-plan-plan for me, it just kind of fell into place. After Ecuador, I decided I wanted to do something with Spanish. I was not even sure what, but I sort of started volunteering to work with kids and enjoyed the teaching. And right about the time we were ready to graduate, or just before, they created the MAT program, and it was like an opening, okay, we could do that. We both managed to get jobs teaching-- Jeff more because- IG: 42:47 [inaudible] MAT program? JS: 42:48 Masters in the Art of Teaching. IG: 42:49 I see. JS: 42:50 I think they still have it. IG: 42:51 Yeah. JS: 42:52 And, I mean, it has changed over the years. First, they had Spanish, then they did not, then they did. I think it was back. But Jeff, more so than I was looking at the teaching end of it, because you could still get a deferment from the war for being a teacher, and that was important, so important to so many of those young guys. And that is how he ended up in it. I just sort of naturally gravitated toward it because I liked it. And since we both got jobs here and had decided to get married. Right after we got our bachelors, we just stayed here and finished our masters. And his parents tried to get him to go to Long Island, but every time he goes down there and we get stuck in traffic, or there would be long lines, he would say, "No, I really do not want to live there." [laughs] IG: 43:40 So, you know, how has- I am just wondering, how has Binghamton University changed over time? Harpur College changed over time in your perception of a better school, a better experience, or is there something missing? JS: 43:57 It is different. [laughs] I mean, there are good things and there are bad things, if you recall, one of the things I liked the best was the smallness of it and how you could get to know everybody. That is no longer true. But then there are a lot more opportunities in so many different fields than there used to be. There did not used to be a school of engineering, there did not used to be a school of nursing. There did not- you know, all these now that there was one in pharmacy, they never used to have all those opportunities um, but it is so big now you can get lost over there. So, it, it is different. I mean, there is there is good and-and bad from- IG: 44:36 Do you think most of your graduating class did well for themselves? The majority? JS: 44:41 Yeah-yeah. Well, certainly, all the ones we have kept in touch with- IG: 44:46 Kept in touch with. JS: 44:47 Absolutely. IG: 44:48 The ones with a strong liberal arts education? JS: 44:51 Mm-Hmm, for sure. IG: 44:53 So, what are the most important lessons that you have learned from the experience of going to Harpur College? JS: 45:01 Goodness, what is the most- lessons. Huh. [laughs] I mean, I certainly learned a lot about how to deal with life. Um, I learned it- opened up my world. Remember, I came from that tiny little family in Niagara Falls. It started really with the exchange student experience, but it continued with-with Harpur. I mean, again, I found a culture that I was not familiar with. They caught- they actually called me for a while. Maybe he will remember the funny little upstate girl, because most of the people on campus were from downstate, and even that in and of itself, I found bizarre that they called me up upstate when they said they were coming upstate, when they were coming to Binghamton, to me, coming from Niagara Falls, coming to a place that borders with Pennsylvania, is downstate, and they said, "No-no-no-no-no, you do not understand it all." If you are anywhere north of Yonkers, you are upstate. In fact, even if you are in Yonkers, you are upstate. [laughs] So it was a culture that I was totally unfamiliar with, and was honestly a little scary at first. It was a different accent. They were much more outgoing and much quicker to criticize. I was kind of inhibited no longer, but I really was kind of inhibited and did not speak up, and learned to do all of that there. So that guess that partially answer your question. IG: 46:31 Right. So, it is kind of an acculturation. JS: 46:34 Absolutely, yep. IG: 46:37 And I think you know, broadening experience. Um, what you know, what was the proudest memory from being at Harpur College? JS: 46:50 That I graduated. [laughs] IG: 46:52 That you graduated. JS: 46:53 There were times when I was not sure that was going to happen. When I saw that a 91 was a c plus, you know, that I made it, but maybe that sticks out, you know, more than anything else, and my father coming to me that and telling me that I was the first person in his family to have graduated from college. Now my mom did, but he met on his side of the family. So. IG: 47:21 Do you have any sort of concluding remarks? We still have your husband to interview. That is another [crosstalk] JS: 47:29 Well, see if he says the opposite of everything. [laughs] Third speaker: 47:34 I have a question. JS: 47:35 Sure. Third speaker: 47:36 You studied Spanish. Was there any Spanish speaking person in campus as a student at that time? JS: 47:44 Yeah. Third speaker: 47:45 Like someone from Spain or Latin America? JS: 47:47 Well, there was a fellow that lived in our dorm that we were friends with. I do not know what happened to a Māori Cruise. He was from Cuba. Third speaker: 47:54 Okay. JS: 47:55 We hung out with him. Yeah, I encountered other ones, but I do not remember their names. Third speaker: 48:01 [crosstalk] some- JS: 48:02 Some, but not a lot. Third speaker: 48:04 How about Black? Were there any [crosstalk] JS: 48:06 Some, some, again, not a lot. One of our best friends was a guy by the name of [inaudible], and he was from what at the time was Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, and he had an interesting life. He was already in his 30s, but he was living on campus with all us youngsters, um trying to get his education, and eventually got his masters up at McGill because he needed a degree from some country within the British Commonwealth, so that when he went back to Zimbabwe, he could be successful, and I do not understand what happened to him, but he ended up in Belgium, I think so. I think there was no place for educated Blacks at the time in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe. I cannot remember exactly when it became Zimbabwe, but it was still Rhodesia when he was with us, but again, not a lot, not a lot. IG: 49:05 So, with the exception of you know, you opened a whole other set of questions, but with the exception of you who have, who had international experience before coming to college, do you think the rest of the student community was pretty, you know, white and insular, and mostly came from downstage. JS: 49:27 In my mind, a bunch of white downstairs. [laughs] IG: 49:30 Yeah. JS: 49:32 In my mind, yeah. IG: 49:33 So, there were very few international students or students of color [inaudible] JS: 49:38 I hope that is accurate, but that is how I remember it. Yeah. I mean, where are these folks? Go ahead, just look through the pictures. Well, this- these are Harpur College pages. At the time, Harpur College bought a place out in Halsey Valley--beyond Owego. And because Jeff was on the judicial review board, he knew who to talk to-to get the keys, and we would go out there, dorm room. I am sorry, you guys probably cannot see very much here. These are all Polaroids. Do you remember back when people used to do Polaroids? Jeff me, Jeff and me, Jeff and me. But this is at that place out in Halsey Valley. They called it Lake Empire. But what I am looking for- here we are--this was a duck- a boat race on the Susquehanna. Everybody had gone down there. Look at their faces. I do not know, folks. I am not seeing a lot of different ethnicities here. Well, there was Mach- there was Machana. We were good friends with him. He was, yeah-yeah. That is, let me see, that is Machana, yeah-yeah. IG: 50:55 For the faculty, yeah, international, did you have- JS: 50:59 Yes. IG: 51:00 Yes, so your Spanish department. Where did they come from? JS: 51:06 Senora Borgel was from Spain, itself, mostly Spain. One from Germany. IG: 51:19 Spanish teacher, Spanish- JS: 51:20 No, that was psychology, one from Switzerland. That was sociology. Where else they were from? IG: 51:37 Did having that kind of international, small presence, you know, connect you to the wider world, or change your view of- JS: 51:48 No not too much. IG: 51:49 Not too much. JS: 51:50 A little bit, but not a lot. Yeah, no, so you can see, yeah, you are right. They were mostly white, huh! Studying. Even when we were relaxing, we were studying. [laughs] IG: 52:09 You were studying. JS: 52:10 That is how I remember it. Somebody's always screwing up the bell-shaped curve pressure, but we are still good friends with him, with her, with her, her, both of them. They live up in Syracuse. Most of us met our spouses there. IG: 52:29 Oh, really. JS: 52:30 Yeah, kind of lost touch with her and her, but our resident, our head resident in our dorm, had was married and had a baby. That is that was his little one. His first name was Dean. Is that a bizarre name for a campus? Think about this. There were so many people that would say to him every time they saw him, hello, Dean Porter. And I know they thought the Dean was his title, not his name, but it was his name. He was not a dean. He was just the resident that had resident. IG: 53:07 Where was this photograph taken on campus? JS: 53:09 No, they, they took a break one spring and went, during spring break, went camping in the not Great Smokies, Shenandoah-Shenandoah area, down in Virginia. IG: 53:27 So, did-did anybody- you did not have any foreign study programs at the time at Harpur College? JS: 53:34 Yeah, they did go, yeah, um, one of the young ladies here, one of my roommates, went to- they had a program in Salamanca, Spain. IG: 53:43 Yeah. JS: 53:43 And, and they also had one in France. I am trying remember the name of the city. It will come to me later. Yeah, there were, there were programs like that where you could go for a semester and study abroad. But that was expensive. And, yeah, I never went because I did not have the money, yeah. IG: 54:02 Subsequently, you went traveling and you saw these places, or some of those places. JS: 54:06 Most of them, not-not-not Spain, so much. Jeff and I have been down- well, we have hosted many, many exchange students here in this house, long term exchange students-- mostly wrote rotary students, but from a couple other organizations as well. And we have had four from Brazil, so we went down to Brazil and visited them. While we were there, we went over to Argentina, just because we were close. IG: 54:29 Wonderful. JS: 54:30 We could see we have been to Mexico a whole bunch of times. I would go shopping. He would make fun of me, because when I was teaching, I would buy all the little trinkets on the street and bring them back for prizes and things in class. And I remember one time having a whole bag of them. And we got to customs, and Jeff and that guy said, "Well, what did you buy…? IG: 54:51 Yeah. JS: 54:51 -in Mexico." And Jeff looked at the guy and went, "Junk." And the guy just said, "Okay, I passed through." [laughs] So to this day, I still tease them about junk that was not junk, that was stuff for my students. [laughs] IG: 55:05 But you kept up your language through these travels. JS: 55:08 Yeah. So yeah, use it some that way. Yeah. We also get together with other Spanish teachers. IG: 55:14 Oh, that is [inaudible] JS: 55:15 Although we retired teachers are starting to lose it. We-we first got together when we retired, and we would speak all in Spanish during lunch, and then it got to be just a half hour. And the last time we forced ourselves to do 10 minutes. [laughs] It is not quite what it used to be, yeah. IG: 55:32 Well, I can understand that language suffers from misuse. JS: 55:37 I keep it up more on campus. IG: 55:39 Yes. JS: 55:40 When I go up to Cortland- and I go into the Foreign Language Department, we are much more likely to address each other. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 55:41 I see. So, any concluding remarks? Do you have any outstanding memories? JS: 55:55 No, the only thing that sticks in my mind, and I am not sure it is where you want to go with this, but how nice it was back then. You know how people are talking right now about this big deal, free tuition, free college, tuition, everything. We basically had that at Harpur College-- they only accepted you if you had an average in the 90s or so. And we used to take something called the regents exam, regions, scholarship exam, which no longer exists, and we all scored high enough on it that we all got a regent scholarship. And that regent scholarship paid our tuition. Our tuition was only $200 a semester, and but that meant for me, as a kid from a lower income family with five children, with just a factory worker dad and so on, I could go to college with no problem. All my tuition was covered. It was free. In that sense, room and board was more. I borrowed money for some of the room and board, and my parents paid for some of it, but it made it relatively painless to get through college, to get a college education, so that you could rise, in other words, you could have a mobile, social, economic society. And so, it is quite doable. It is quite possible. And I feel really strongly about that, that we could do it if we had the political will. I mean, it was done. It is not a first. We had it, [laughs] and I am very grateful for that, or I would not be here. [laughs] You know, IG: 56:52 That is what it should be. JS: 57:29 Yeah, so and Harpur College had that for sure. IG: 57:34 And most, do you think that most kids had- were there on scholarship, or... JS: 57:40 I' d say most of the kids on campus had a scholarship just because of our averages. Yeah-yeah. Jeff did, I did. IG: 57:46 Academic scholarships. Third speaker: 57:48 And that also made a huge difference, of course, campus life, because everyone was intellectually- IG: 57:56 motivated, Third speaker: 57:57 Same level. IG: 57:59 yeah-yeah. for sure. So that is it. Well, good. Third speaker: 58:05 Thank you very much. JS: 58:07 Thank you. It has been fun talking about it. You know, and trying to make me think of things I have not thought about them. I will leave that here if you want something. Oh, this would be a better indicator you were asking about ethnicities and stuff. Just flip through it. This is the, yeah, look, it looks all white to me. Gosh, I never thought about that. Yeah, holy cow. IG: 58:37 I think that was probably standard at the time. Do not you think? JS: 58:41 I guess, I guess how sad. Kept touch with some of these people. Yeah, you are welcome to skim through it to see what you can find. But they are, they are broken up by- IG: 59:02 Year? JS: 59:03 No, by majors. And so, I wonder if there would be a difference, depending on whether you are looking at humanities or sciences or I will bet you find a difference between male and female. Betcha-betcha [bet you]. Find most of the females in the humanities part. Third speaker: 59:21 Absolutely. JS: 59:24 Anyway. IG: 59:25 I love this. [laughs] JS: 59:28 You want me, let me go get- yes, that was the other thing too. Do you know a lot of schools at that time were still insistent that everybody dress family for dinner? We were Harpur hippies. They did not have a dress code. You could wear jeans. IG: 59:42 She breaks the mode. JS: 59:43 At night and-and that is a little bit what-what they look like. [laughs] IG: 59:48 Is it a little bit what you look like? JS: 59:50 Oh, yeah. Jeans- IG: 59:51 Glasses, jeans. JS: 59:53 We all, we all, we were all nerds. We all have glasses. We- IG: 59:57 She has sunglasses. JS: 59:58 No, yeah, that is different. IG: 59:59 [inaudible] JS: 1:00:01 But we were all in jeans, yeah. IG: 1:00:03 Boots. JS: 1:00:04 Yeah, I did not do boots, IG: 1:00:06 Yeah. Okay. JS: 1:00:07 Yeah, let me go get the other guy and relieve him. IG: 1:00:11 Thank you so much. JS: 1:00:12 Send him your way. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Janice L. Strauss Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Broome County. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strauss, Janice L. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Janice is a Niagara Falls native. She worked as a Spanish teacher in Broome County. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Janice Strauss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-12-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5112e9b6211742e8470d4ab3d66bed61.mp3 48d484734d2fc790298073eeef97224a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e6952d772bf48e6bc719239f4c6a2ae8.jpg 6dfb4cb3bb3c63d8ba910d55898efafa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barry Polsky Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Barry Polsky Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 3 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) BP: 00:03 Travel will be difficult. IG: 00:04 Travel will be difficult tomorrow. It is the snow is starting at four o'clock in the morning. BP: 00:10 Right. Four or five. IG: 00:11 Four or five. We will figure it out. So, for the record, please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are. BP: 00:35 My name is Barry Polsky. I was born on November 25, 1946 and we are in Somerville, Massachusetts. IG: 00:48 Where did you grow up? BP: 00:50 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. IG: 00:53 And tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what was the occupation of your parents? BP: 01:04 Yeah, so my parents were both immigrants from the Soviet Union. They both came here in the 1920s separately, I was amazed when I found out, when I was young that they met here and they were both from the Soviet Union. And my- neither of them had much education. My father eventually became the manager of what we used to call an appetizing store, which is a little grocery store that sells smoked fish like lox and herring and kippered salmon. And he had these big jars of candy and big blocks of halva and cheese. It was a wonderful store. It was on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and he managed the store for 25 years, and when he was 60, he bought the store from the owner, and he owned it for six years, until he passed away. My mother was a housewife when we were out of the house. I think my mother got some jobs here and there, but basically, she was a housewife and raised us, and we were, I would say, lower middle class. IG: 02:22 Where did you go to high school? BP: 02:23 Midwood High School in Flatbush. IG: 02:26 I know where that is. Did your parents encourage your pursuing a college degree? BP: 02:36 It was mandatory. IG: 02:38 Mandatory. BP: 02:39 Yes. It was just assumed. Unlike my two older sisters, who could have done whatever they wanted, my parents did not push them in any direction. I was assumed. It was assumed I would go to college, and in fact, later on, when I left graduate school, my father said, I will be disappointed if you do not get a PhD. IG: 03:01 So, is this what you did? BP: 03:03 Yes, I went to University of Rochester for graduate school in brain research, psychology and brain research. IG: 03:11 Oh, my goodness. BP: 03:12 And I got a master's degree. And then at some point, I decided that graduate school was taking too much out of my personal life to continue, and so I just left after a master's degree. And actually, you may not, you probably do not know this, I came back to Binghamton, and I was a laboratory teaching assistant in psychology for a year and a half at Binghamton. IG: 03:41 So, what was your occupation, throughout the years? BP: 03:46 I have had many careers, several careers. So, after I was the teaching assistant at Binghamton for a year and a half, I went back to New York City, and I was briefly a programmer, computer programmer for AT&T. IG: 03:49 Tell us about it. What years were the- BP: 04:05 1970 I believe. And then in (19)71 I got a job as a research assistant at Hoffmann-La Roche [F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd], the big pharmaceutical company. And I worked there as a research assistant for eight years, laboratory research. Then I went to Israel for 10 weeks, and when I got back to New York, yeah, when I got back to New York, I realized I just did not like New York City anymore, and I knew some people in Boston, and I just up and went to Boston. I decided I want to live in Boston, and I have never regretted it. I love it here. And I kind of bounced around. Did not quite know what I wanted to do. I was a bus boy. I was the- I did various things. And then I settled into being a full time Boston cab driver for about five years. And when I was approaching 40, I decided that I needed a real career, and I read a book called 90 jobs for the (19)90s, and it said that computer programmers would be in great demand. So, I went back to computer programming. I went to Harvard Extension School and got a computer science degree, and then I worked as a computer programmer for about 15 years. IG: 05:36 Can I ask what area I mean, did your programming in-in-in the (19)70s, in the early (19)70s, [crosstalk] inform your, did you do- BP: 05:47 I did cobalt programming in the (19)70, business programming, cobalt program, right in graduate school, in the program at Harvard Extension, I learned C, not C plus-plus just C. IG: 06:01 Just C. BP: 06:03 And I got a job with a firm in Rhode Island doing kind of customer service and a little programming. So, what was their niche? IG: 06:10 I see. BP: 06:10 I did that for about a year and a half, and then I was offered a job up here in Cambridge with a company called Computer Sports Systems. And they were very interesting company. They had an interesting niche. They invented automatic scoring for bowling alleys. If you go bowling- IG: 06:34 Yeah. BP: 06:34 You do not have to score by hand. IG: 06:36 Oh! BP: 06:37 There is a machine that detects the number of pins you knock down, and it projects your score overhead, and that is on all with software. And this company invented that software that did the automatic. IG: 06:50 So, what was your role in [crosstalk] helped design. BP: 06:53 I helped design and maintain those programs. IG: 06:56 Oh! That is very interesting. Who were some of your clients? BP: 07:03 Oh, well, we worked with Brunswick, which was the main, one of the main manufacturers of bowling equipment. I think I heard of- Yeah, and actually bowling alleys, big bowling alleys, would be our clients. And after a while, there was not a lot of business anymore for that. So, they tried a big project to get the company going again. The project petered out. And when that project failed, they laid off just every programmer, except one, and I was laid off. And- IG: 07:40 And what year was this? BP: 07:41 19- Let us see, I think 2003,2003 or (20)04, and I did not have another an appetite to pound the pavement looking for another job where I looked at a computer screen all day. IG: 08:01 Right. BP: 08:02 And so, I wanted more interaction. So, after doing a couple of stops and starts, I decided to become a teacher. And eventually I landed a job as a high school math teacher at Everett High School, which is a suburb of Boston. IG: 08:19 Did you go through a special program? BP: 08:21 I tried to get into a couple of training programs, and I could not get in. But in one of the interviewers said, you know, you have an interesting resume, just send your resume out to people; do not go to a training program. So, I- the Boston Globe had an ad for Everett High School wanting math teachers. I sent in my resume, and two weeks before the years begin, they dropped me in for an interview, and they hired me the next day. IG: 08:47 Oh, wonderful. BP: 08:48 So, I sort of started right off the street, and I worked there for 10 years. IG: 08:55 Did you enjoy the experience? I did. I thought was very rewarding. It was stressful, and it was the hardest job that I have ever had, especially the first year, because I was checking homework one day, and I, you know, somebody was not getting it. And I said, "Well, did you read the book?" And he said, "I cannot learn from the book." So, I decided the book was not good enough, and I wrote my own book of notes for all the lessons that year that I distributed to the students. So that I was working, you asked my wife I was working day and night, but I got it done, and later on, it became less and less work as I had my lessons planned. Lesson plans- what grades did you teach? BP: 09:40 Pre-calculus, juniors and seniors. IG: 09:45 And what kind of neighborhood is Everett? BP: 09:47 Very diverse. IG: 09:49 Very diverse. BP: 09:50 Working class. IG: 09:51 Working class. BP: 09:51 Yeah. Um, basically working class and diverse in terms of their Haitians and Brazilians, and Central Americans and African Americans, and, you know, probably maybe 50 to 60 percent white, and then the rest very diverse. And it was very rewarding, but toward the end of my 10 years, it became more and more stressful, and I think the main reason was cell phones in the classroom. IG: 10:24 Was what? BP: 10:24 Cell phone. IG: 10:25 Oh, yes. BP: 10:27 You just could not get the students away from their cell phones. And I would have a rule. IG: 10:33 Right. BP: 10:33 But it would be very hard to enforce it, because if they start, if they finished their work, I would- they would- cell phones would come out. I would say, no cell phones. They would say, I finished my work. IG: 10:43 Right. BP: 10:43 It was very hard to control. IG: 10:45 Yeah. BP: 10:46 So, I was- when I retired after 10 years, I had a small pension. IG: 10:50 When-when- so when did you retire? BP: 10:51 Okay. Yeah. So, I was hired in 2006 and I worked until, I guess, June of 2016. IG: 11:01 So that is very recent. BP: 11:03 Yeah, I am retired about a year and a half, almost two years. IG: 11:06 So how are you enjoying retirement? BP: 11:10 I love it. IG: 11:11 You love it. BP: 11:12 I love it. Mainly. One of the main reasons I love it is that I found the perfect retirement job. IG: 11:19 Which- what is- and what is that? BP: 11:22 I am a big baseball fan and I am a Big Red Sox fan. IG: 11:26 Yeah. BP: 11:27 I have become a tour guide at Fenway Park. IG: 11:30 Oh, wow. BP: 11:32 Fenway Park gives tours to thousands of people a year. IG: 11:36 How wonderful. BP: 11:37 And I am one of the tour guides there. IG: 11:42 That is wonderful. That is wonderful that you found it. BP: 11:45 And then to make some extra money, I drive Uber. IG: 11:48 Oh, good for you. BP: 11:50 So, I am enjoying retirement. IG: 11:52 Yeah. BP: 11:52 Not quite as much money as I was making when I finished teaching. IG: 11:56 Yeah, you have a beautiful home. You live in a lovely area. BP: 12:00 Well, I lucked out in many ways. When I married Randy, she had a first husband, and she was able to buy this home in the 1980s when it was affordable. IG: 12:11 Right. BP: 12:11 So. IG: 12:12 Where did you meet your wife? BP: 12:15 We were acquaintances for a number of years in a Jewish congregation of the persuasion, called Jewish renewal. It is kind of like an alternative. IG: 12:25 Where is it based? BP: 12:27 When we met, it was based in Watertown, but we meet in rented spaces. Currently, we are based in Waltham. IG: 12:35 I know. BP: 12:38 And we were acquaintances for quite a while. IG: 12:40 Yeah. BP: 12:40 And in 2004 Randy and another friend, Mary were going to New Hampshire to canvas for John Kerry- IG: 12:49 Yeah. BP: 12:50 -and they asked me to come along if I wanted to come along. And I did. And at one point, Mary took a walk, and Randy and I were left in a diner talking, and we hit it off and started dating. And- IG: 13:02 That is wonderful. So, it is a relatively recent marriage. BP: 13:07 That is right, we were married. Actually, we were together for eight years before we got married. Oh, so we were only got married a little over three years ago- IG: 13:17 Only three. BP: 13:18 -and it was my first marriage at the age of 67. IG: 13:21 It is what? BP: 13:21 My first marriage at the age of 67. IG: 13:26 Bless your heart. BP: 13:27 Thank you. IG: 13:27 It is wonderful. BP: 13:28 Thank you. I am very happy. IG: 13:32 Wonderful. That is, that is really it. It warms my heart. So let us return a little less backtrack and return to your college days. BP: 13:47 Yes. IG: 13:47 So, I mean, do you still keep in touch with your classmates from Binghamton? BP: 13:54 There is one small group of classmates that I have always kept in touch with. IG: 13:58 Right. BP: 14:02 We were in the same dorm. We were in Whitney together. IG: 14:06 Right. BP: 14:07 And there were like three or four couples that we keep in touch- IG: 14:20 Yeah. BP: 14:20 Since then, it is not a wide range of students- IG: 14:25 Not a wide range [crosstalk] BP: 14:26 But- IG: 14:26 Do you ever get together? BP: 14:28 Um, maybe on big reunions, like I get together with them on big reunions. I think I saw them on the 50th and the 40th reunion. The union now passed its 50th. IG: 14:41 Yeah, I remember you at the reunion. BP: 14:44 Yeah. IG: 14:45 On campus. BP: 14:46 Yeah. But they get, generally get together on New Year's Eve in Pennsylvania, at somebody's house. But I usually do not make that. But we said, you know, holiday- [crosstalk] IG: 15:00 -together with the Strauss's? BP: 15:01 Yes. IG: 15:02 We interview them. BP: 15:04 Yes-yes, wonderful people. IG: 15:06 Because I- they mentioned a New Year's tradition in Pennsylvania. BP: 15:12 Right. IG: 15:12 That is, that is why I thought, Okay, so tell me about the campus when you first arrived. What was it like? BP: 15:24 Well, I love say, I always tell people when I got there, it was Harpur College. IG: 15:31 Yeah. BP: 15:32 And it had 1600 students. When I left, it was State University of New York at Binghamton, and it had 6000 students. There was mud and construction everywhere all during those four years. Tt was really an explosion. IG: 15:49 So, it really went through not even an evolution, but a revolution- BP: 15:54 Yes. IG: 15:54 -for four years that you were there? BP: 15:56 Right. IG: 15:57 What did you study at Binghamton? BP: 16:00 I went in thinking I wanted to be a math major. IG: 16:03 Right. BP: 16:04 But I took calculus, AP calculus in high school, so I did not take- have to take math the first freshman year. And during the freshman and sophomore year, I kind of had an intellectual awakening, and I decided that people were the most interesting things to study. So, I majored in psychology. Now I expected to study Freud and abnormal psychology and things like that, but the program at Binghamton was primarily experimental psychology, so I studied rats. IG: 16:11 Right. But that really- BP: 16:39 It was okay. IG: 16:41 Awakened your interest in the in the dis, in the subject. BP: 16:45 That is right. IG: 16:46 Who were some of the- do you remember some of the names of the faculty- BP: 16:52 Oh, that [crosstalk] IG: 16:54 -awakened this interest in you? BP: 16:55 Yeah. Well, my friend- my first psychology teacher, was Andrew Strouthes. Um, but I had been awakened even before I started taking psychology. IG: 17:10 By whom? By what? BP: 17:12 Well, I know that during the summer before my sophomore year, I read William James' psychology. I would get a book on psychology, and this one was called Psychology, so I decided to read it. And I was reading some philosophy. I took philosophy in my sophomore year, and loved it, and I decided I wanted to be a therapist. So, this kind of psychology that I was studying as a sophomore was not really what I was expecting. IG: 17:46 Yeah. BP: 17:46 But I still liked it. Then at some point around my junior year, when I- during my-my sophomore year, things got difficult emotionally for me. I struggled with depression some, and I- at one point decided that I had too many of my own problems that I could not figure out to help somebody else with their problems. So, I went from wanting to be a therapist to wanting to do brain research [crosstalk] IG: 18:23 That is pretty self-aware, I would say, for a young person. BP: 18:32 Mm-Hmm. IG: 18:32 So, did you feel supported by the community at Binghamton during the harder times? Or did you have friends that you could reach out to? BP: 18:45 Um, I was not good at reaching out. IG: 18:48 No. BP: 18:49 I was not good at getting support. I think I pretty much carried things on my own. Yeah. IG: 18:59 So, do you see yourself during those years as a loner, or were you, you know, in a group of friends? And... BP: 19:11 I would say I had friends; I had a small group of friends. IG: 19:17 And- BP: 19:18 And I was- there was something that was not quite a fraternity. It was more like a social club. It was called STO. IG: 19:26 what was that? Tell us about that? BP: 19:32 I think there were fraternities, and this was like a fraternity light. IG: 19:37 Yeah. BP: 19:39 And it was a little easier to get into a little less prestigious, a little less, you know, rules, and I liked hanging out with those folks. IG: 19:52 So, what would you do? Would you just, you know, hang out. BP: 19:57 Wow. Uh, I do not really remember too much else about that. Just go meetings, yeah, just meetings and talk. IG: 20:08 You had meetings and talks. BP: 20:09 Right. With uh, my- this girl, close group of friends that I had- IG: 20:13 Yeah. BP: 20:15 I remember going out to Sharkies and having speedies. IG: 20:19 In town? BP: 20:20 In town. IG: 20:20 In town. And did you have a car? Did you- did somebody have a car? BP: 20:26 Somebody must have had a car. IG: 20:27 Somebody must have had a car. BP: 20:28 Yeah, I did not have a car in college. IG: 20:30 Yeah. BP: 20:30 So, somebody must have had a car. IG: 20:34 You know so-so what were what was recreational? What was recreation for you, outside of Sharkies and the fraternity, or were you studying all the time? BP: 20:48 I was studying a lot. IG: 20:49 You were studying a lot. BP: 20:54 One thing that comes to mind when you say what was recreation is the first time that I was introduced to smoking grass. [laughs] Now you have to know that Binghamton was kind of like a- IG: 21:09 Party school? No? BP: 21:11 No, it was a druggie school [crosstalk] as its reputation was as a druggie school. IG: 21:17 That is interesting. BP: 21:18 And a lot of us had our first exposure to grass and acid at Binghamton. IG: 21:25 Was that kind of inspired by Timothy Leary? BP: 21:30 Yes-yes. IG: 21:30 And that was connected to your interest in psychology, right? BP: 21:35 Probably, I mean, it was more of interest in just having- wanting more experiences, wanting different experiences. I did have- I was not an acid head. I had one trip that was pretty intense, and one time when I took like a half a dose that did not do very much. IG: 21:59 Excuse me. BP: 22:00 I took like, a half a dose of acid. IG: 22:02 Yeah. BP: 22:03 And it did not do very much. IG: 22:04 Yeah. BP: 22:05 So, I would say I had one experience. IG: 22:09 And what was the experience like, if you do not mind sharing. BP: 22:12 Not at all. It was pretty-pretty interesting. It was, it was, it was good. At one point, I just felt like, this is great. I just felt so good. And colors were very-very vibrant. And I remember- IG: 22:30 Were you sitting, standing, walking? Do- Where were you walking? BP: 22:32 Both I would, I would mostly walking. I remember- I remember going into a room. IG: 22:40 In resi- in their residence? BP: 22:41 In the dorm, right. With a rug kind of looking like this. IG: 22:45 Yeah. BP: 22:46 And the pattern of the rug looked like it would rai- it raised up and started swirling around. [laughs] It was a psychedelic experience. But some of my insecurities were exacerbated, also. I remember walking during the trip, walking with a friend, and saying to him, you know, I am afraid. I am really boring you. So that was [crosstalk] IG: 23:13 Yeah, that is interesting. I never heard that. So, in the aftermath, what do you think of this experience? I mean- BP: 23:25 I am glad I had- IG: 23:26 Yeah. BP: 23:27 I am glad I had it. I do not think it did any damage. IG: 23:29 No. BP: 23:29 I did not do it enough to really do any damage. And I smoked several times, listened to music, but I never really developed a desire to make it a lifestyle or do it a lot, and now, as an adult, the few times that I have smoked with friends over the years, I do not like the way it makes me feel at all, so I do not do it. I am trying to remember whether we used to go to basketball games. We might have gone to basketball games. IG: 24:02 So-so, you would get, you know, I mean, you would get together with your friends. Do you remember some of the conversations? Would you talk about politics, the war? You know, the war must have been present on everyone's mind. BP: 24:17 The war was a big thing. The war was a big thing. I remember either as a sophomore, as a junior, reading a book about the history of the War of Vietnam, and just deciding right then and there that it was unjust. It was a really terrible war. And I remember a group of us drove down to Washington, DC for one of the marches. And we were, we were very against the war, and there was a bond there. We-we... IG: 24:51 Do remember- what year the protest in Washington? Do you remember? BP: 24:55 I am guessing 1966. I am guessing. IG: 25:00 And you know, was it many students, or just your friends, or who went from Binghamton? Do you remember? BP: 25:09 Well, we were in a car, so [crosstalk] IG: 25:12 It must not [inaudible] so large. BP: 25:14 -very much, but there were other people that definitely went down. IG: 25:18 Right-right. BP: 25:19 I do not remember whether any busses of students went down, I am not sure. But I mean, I can feel the emotion of that and even now, how against the war we were and how much we wanted to fight it. IG: 25:34 How was it like being in Washington with this sea of young people, I imagine. BP: 25:39 Yeah, it was great. It was really energizing, and it felt like we had to express our opposition. But it was frustrating also, because we did not really know whether this was going to make have an impact, although, in retrospect, it certainly had an impact in Johnson not running for a second term. IG: 26:02 Right. BP: 26:03 So, we had sudden effect there. IG: 26:05 Do you feel that you were politicized during your undergraduate career? Do you think you are a political or was it just that one instance? BP: 26:22 That is a good question. I certainly am very interested in politics. I mean, I met- I got together with Randy going up to New Hampshire to Canvas for John Kerry. So, when it- when I am and I am very energized about the 2018- IG: 26:42 By the way, went to a fundraiser for John Kerry. BP: 26:45 Oh, right. IG: 26:48 Yeah. BP: 26:49 I am very energized about the 2018 midterms and the 2020 election. I want to do everything I can. But I would not say that most of my life, I have been that political, you know, I have had my views and I have contributed money at various times, but I cannot say that I have participated in a lot of organizing. IG: 27:13 So do you think that Binghamton was kind of a foundational experience for you, or it was just something that you went through to get a degree. BP: 27:25 I certainly think it had an influence. I mean it, it put me in the direction of brain research and experimental psychology, and got me headed off and in that in that direction for the first 10 years of my life. IG: 27:51 Even though it was not really the psychology, you know, direction that you- BP: 27:59 envision of beginning. IG: 28:00 Yea., BP: 28:00 That is right. IG: 28:03 So, you know, there were women at Binghamton. [laughter] You know, did you date anybody? BP: 28:19 Well, this is, yeah, this is, this is very important part of my history. IG: 28:27 Yeah. BP: 28:28 So, I remember walking along near Whitney in my freshman year, thinking, you know, I am really, really happy, as long as I do not think about girls like I must have had some fear, some insecurity, that-that was troubling me. But, I mean, I was basically a pretty happy person. There was something called "Winter Weekend." IG: 29:08 Yeah, what was that? BP: 29:09 It was something that I think the fraternities and the social clubs ran. It was the middle of the winter term, and it involved parties and stuff, and it was organized over- around the weekend, and people had dates for it. So, I decided I wanted to go to that. And I had been hanging around a few of people, and I asked one of the girls I was hanging out with to go. Her name was Mary Jean and so we went. had a pretty good time. I did not much, have much a dating life in high school, so I during that week. I made out for the first time. But at the end of the weekend, we were on the way back to the dorm, and I decided that was it. I did not really want to see her anymore. IG: 29:09 You did not what. BP: 29:12 Did not really want to see her anymore after that weekend. So, we get up to the door of the dorm, and before I say anything, she says, "Would like to have lunch tomorrow?" And I ended up saying, "Well, okay." And I ended up saying, "Well, okay," for the next six months-- always feeling like I did not really want to be in this relationship, but not knowing how to break it up. IG: 30:41 Right. BP: 30:43 And that lasted until, I guess it was trimester. So summer was in the end of June- was that that semester, that trimester, and then summer was July, August, September, October. So, I finally did say- she was from Buffalo, and I was from New York, so I finally did say at the end, "I do not think I want to see you when we get back." IG: 31:07 That what BP: 31:08 That when we get back, I do not think I want to continue dating, yeah, and she accepted it, but then over the summer, much to my surprise, to start to miss her, and when we got back, we sort of hung out for a little bit, and then we started going out again. But this time it was very different. I came, kind of became dependent on her. IG: 31:33 Yeah. BP: 31:34 And it did not really work well. And during this time, I find myself getting depressed. And so, this whole-- I think when I look back on it, one of the reasons I became depressed is that during that time, when I was with her, in the first semester, I was not really being myself, I was not being true to myself, and I kind of got out of sorts that way. IG: 31:59 How? I mean, how did you it is a hard question, but I mean, how did you being yourself, meaning-meaning that you were not telling her what you felt BP: 32:11 Right and sort of like being who I thought you wanted me to be. IG: 32:16 Yeah. BP: 32:16 Instead of being who I was, IG: 32:17 I see, I see. BP: 32:19 And I did not really date anybody else that seriously for the rest of the college. IG: 32:24 Did you part as friends? Or did you never speak to her again, or when you finally parted company? BP: 32:32 You mean in the sophomore year? It was somewhat acrimonious. I think, you know, I, I think we were civil to each other after that, but never close. And as far as you know, I dated here and there the rest of the time, but never really- IG: 32:35 Yeah. Yeah. BP: 32:59 -hooked up with anyone. IG: 33:01 Do you think that she was very career oriented, or was she, your former- that first girlfriend? Was she looking for a husband? BP: 33:13 [inaudible] yeah. I think she was looking for a husband. IG: 33:19 Do you think that these were the expectations of young women at the time, even those who had gotten into Harpur College, or were they looking toward- well, I mean, you cannot say, you cannot generalize- BP: 33:36 Yeah, I cannot generalize exactly. IG: 33:39 But she was looking- BP: 33:39 I think she was looking for a husband. IG: 33:41 Yeah. BP: 33:42 And I think that it was a time when expectations were changing for women. IG: 33:46 Were changing. BP: 33:47 You know- IG: 33:49 Well, you mentioned that, you know, there was an expectation from your parents. That you would go on- BP: 33:54 Right. IG: 33:54 -with your studies, but your sisters could do anything that they liked. BP: 33:54 Right. IG: 33:54 So that -that-that is my answer, really. BP: 33:54 Right. That is right. IG: 33:56 At Harpur College, which is, which, I mean, had an excellent reputation, or, I mean, it had a reputation of being a very rigorous school. I do not want to put words into your mouth. [laughs] BP: 34:18 No, it was yes, it was. IG: 34:21 It was. BP: 34:21 I mean, once my- one sister did not go to college. IG: 34:25 Right. BP: 34:26 And one sister went to college for one year and then met someone and got married. IG: 34:31 Right. BP: 34:32 But, you know, the women that were at Harpur College already- IG: 34:36 Right. BP: 34:37 I think we are a little more career origin. IG: 34:39 A little more career origin, but not much. BP: 34:42 Yeah, I think not. That is right, they still were kind of transitioning from looking for a husband to thinking, "Oh, maybe I can have my own career." IG: 34:56 So how do you think- how did the transition manifest for women that you noticed during that time? Were they becoming- what more career oriented? Were they more, you know, did they, I mean, did kids have sexual relations at the time? BP: 35:23 I would not know. [laughs] IG: 35:24 You would not know. You would not know. You would not know. So, your-your-your buddies and you were not talking about that? BP: 35:30 Oh well, yeah, I had one-one friend of mine definitely talked about his kind of conquests. And I think I had a roommate who had a girlfriend, and they were sleeping together. Oh, you know, it reminds me of the Rule of, you know, a book in the door-door had to be open the width of a book, yes, and one foot on the floor. IG: 36:03 Yes-yes-yes. I have heard. BP: 36:06 And- IG: 36:06 So, did you witness that at all? BP: 36:10 Well, we talked about those- Yeah. -those rules. But I-I mean, I never attempted to sleep with someone while I was in college. I see so I would not know. I never tried to bend those rules, but I do, I am sure that there were other my friends that did. IG: 36:31 I see. So-so how did your girlfriend from that time, and does she have a name? BP: 36:40 Mary Jean. IG: 36:41 Mary Jean. How did your girlfriend and you spend time together? BP: 36:48 Well, we would have almost every meal together. IG: 36:50 Yeah. BP: 36:52 And we would study together. IG: 36:53 Right. BP: 36:54 And, you know, we would make out. IG: 36:57 Yeah. BP: 36:58 Uh, and maybe occasionally see a movie if somebody had a car, or maybe if there was a movie shown on campus. IG: 37:12 Did you mention Mary Jean to your parents? I mean, did you- BP: 37:16 Oh yes. IG: 37:17 Yes. BP: 37:19 Mary Jane was not Jewish, and I did mention that I was going out with her, and again, my father was not happy. IG: 37:36 Yeah. BP: 37:36 Yeah, that was uh- IG: 37:39 That might have had an influence. BP: 37:42 Could have had an influence, yeah. IG: 37:44 When you went home to- for the summers, what did you do? How would you spend your time? BP: 37:48 I would get a job. IG: 37:50 Yeah. Where would you work? BP: 37:51 I mean, it was an advantage that it was a trimester with July, August, September and October, because I- you generally lied and said I was permanent. So let us see. In (19)64 I got a job at the New York World's Fair. IG: 38:10 Oh, I remember that. BP: 38:11 Yeah, and I had the most boring job in the world. IG: 38:15 What did you do? BP: 38:16 I was a Pinkerton Guard, and I was stationed between two escalators, and my job was to push a button if anything happened in emergency. So, the most interesting part of my day was when every once in a while, somebody asked me directions to go somewhere, but it was very pretty boring job. IG: 38:37 What other, what other jobs did you have? BP: 38:40 The next year, I worked in a purse factory. I was like stock boy, and I worked there for several months, and then when I told my boss that I was leaving, he said, "Oh, I am really sorry. I was about to promote you." So, they wanted me to stay, but they did not realize that I was a college boy. IG: 39:04 I did not ask you an important question, why did you choose Binghamton to study? BP: 39:12 Basically, it was my third choice. It was my [crosstalk] IG: 39:15 What were your first two choices? BP: 39:16 Cornell and University of Rochester. So, Cornell, I did not get into and Rochester, I was on the waiting list. IG: 39:23 So, were these known as math schools? BP: 39:28 No- IG: 39:29 [crosstalk] programs? BP: 39:29 They just were- IG: 39:31 Well, I mean, Cornell is for everything. BP: 39:33 Right-right, and, but I did know in my senior year in high school that I wanted to leave New York. I did not want to go to Brooklyn College. I did not want to stay at home, and so I figured out a way to pay for everything myself. So, I walked into the kitchen in my home to my parents and said, "These are the three schools I am applying to, Binghamton, Rochester, Cornell." I did not give them a choice of Brooklyn College. IG: 39:50 That is fantastic. BP: 40:00 I just knew I could pay for it. I got a regent scholarship that paid for tuition totally, which was all of $400 a trimester. IG: 40:00 Yeah, times were different. BP: 40:01 Right. Right. I got a federal loan that basically paid for my room and board at school, and I did summer work to pick up, make my expenses, so I really was not dependent on [crosstalk] IG: 40:25 That is very enterprise. But what did they say anyway? I mean, What-what? I mean, you kind of put your foot down, and this is my- BP: 40:36 They did not have much of a choice. They-they said, "Are you sure?" IG: 40:42 What can they say? BP: 40:48 But I was very glad I went to Binghamton. IG: 40:53 So-so had you had your parents heard of Binghamton before you announced that you were, you know, this was your third choice. BP: 41:07 I do not think they knew much about Binghamton Harpur College at the time. IG: 41:13 Yeah, Harpur College. BP: 41:14 Right. I do not think they knew much about it. But by the way, you know what? I tell people that I went to Harpur College- They would say, "Harvard?" IG: 41:22 Yeah. Yeah. BP: 41:22 I would say, "No-no, Harpur College, it is in Binghamton." And they would say, "Way down in Alabama?" IG: 41:35 Yeah, I know I when I told my daughter I was accepting a job at Binghamton. She thought, "Birmingham?" BP: 41:43 Yeah, yeah. IG: 41:45 But Harpur College had a reputation, and before I mean, do you know that it was you know, what were its strengths? What-what-what did you know about it before you- why did you apply to Harpur College rather than to SUNY Buffalo, for example? BP: 42:06 I think it had the reputation of being the best state school. I think that was the reputation, and I did well in high school. IG: 42:15 Yeah. BP: 42:16 And I was fairly sure I could get in, but I thought that I was worth the best state school. IG: 42:25 Yeah. BP: 42:26 You know. IG: 42:28 Did you visit before- did you visit Harpur College before your acceptance or, I mean, did you first arrive to campus on the first day of school? BP: 42:41 I do not remember visiting. IG: 42:42 You do not remember visiting. BP: 42:43 I think, I think I just [crosstalk] IG: 42:44 You just went into it cold. BP: 42:46 Yeah, I think I did. IG: 42:48 And how did it strike you? I mean, you were a city boy. How did the country strike you? What did it look like? BP: 42:58 Well, my, one of my memories of the first day of being there, my parents brought me up there, and I remember my parents leaving the dormitory, and I think I looked out the window and saw them, and they saw me as they were leaving. My father went. So, you know, they were, it was hard for them to-to- IG: 43:34 Because you were a tight knit family? BP: 43:36 Yeah. IG: 43:37 Yeah. BP: 43:39 And uh, but I think I adjusted pretty fast. And uh, hmm- IG: 43:51 I mean, what? I mean, it is a country, it is fresh air, it is, I mean, it is- BP: 43:57 Well. IG: 43:58 -pretty, it was pretty rural at the time. BP: 44:01 Yes, it was. It was not until I was at Binghamton before I had any understanding of why people took hikes- IG: 44:09 Yeah. BP: 44:09 -you know. But until then, I really just did not understand. Did not get it. But the friends that I made were from Buffalo. IG: 44:18 Yeah. BP: 44:19 And they had more of a non-city, um, feel a non-city. They understood what it was like to not be in a city, and so they kind of introduced me to walks in the country, but it was I had to get used to it, but I understood that I was in college and I was not in the city anymore. I was there to learn, and I think I adjusted pretty fast. IG: 44:52 You adapted very quickly. BP: 44:54 Yeah, and I liked my roommate, that was very important too. Sort of bond with my roommate. IG: 45:02 Did you stay with the same roommate for four years? BP: 45:05 No, I was with him for at least the first year, and possibly two years. Yeah, possibly two years that I was in a suite with several people. IG: 45:21 With how many people? BP: 45:23 I think probably four or five. IG: 45:25 Yeah. BP: 45:26 Yeah. IG: 45:27 So, did you have your own kitchen? And- BP: 45:30 Yes, I think so. IG: 45:31 You think so. So, did that mean that somebody with a car went to town to buy groceries? BP: 45:40 I am not going to be much help here. IG: 45:41 Okay, you do not remember. Do you remember- but you-you would go to the cafeteria? BP: 45:46 Yes, definitely. IG: 45:47 So maybe there was not a kitchen? BP: 45:49 Right. Could be. And I do remember liking hanging out in the student center. IG: 45:55 At the Student Center? BP: 45:56 Right. IG: 45:57 And what- where was that, and what was that like? BP: 46:02 That was by what we call the esplanade. Is it still the student center now? The student union. That is called the student union, right. IG: 46:14 I see. BP: 46:14 But we called it the student center. We would go down and get a snack. IG: 46:19 Yeah. BP: 46:20 Get a burger or something. And uh- IG: 46:24 Did people, you know, I am just getting, you know- did you know- the outside time, the you know, the political climate, the issues of the day- BP: 46:41 Yeah. IG: 46:41 -did you discuss them? BP: 46:44 Yes-yes. IG: 46:44 So, what-what were some of the things that you were discussing- BP: 46:47 Well, mainly the war. IG: 46:48 The mainly the war. BP: 46:49 Yeah. Now I remember being in the student center when the Six Day War in Israel broke out, but I know the timing is right, because I think that was in June (19)67 and I graduated in (19)67 and I must have graduated in- I do not know why I would have been there in June (19)67 but I remember- IG: 47:27 Maybe for the graduation ceremony? BP: 47:29 Could be, could be, but I remember feeling like I want to go over to Israel and fight. You know, I remember SDS. IG: 47:35 Yeah. Right. BP: 47:41 And- IG: 47:42 But you were not part of it. BP: 47:42 I was not part of that, and I was not as radical as that. IG: 47:45 Yeah. Are any of your friends part of SDS? BP: 47:50 Not I remember. No, I do not think so. Um- IG: 48:00 Was there an anxiety about being drafted among your friends? BP: 48:04 Yes, definitely. IG: 48:07 Right. So, were a lot of your friends thinking of going on to graduate schools? BP: 48:15 Uh huh? Definitely. IG: 48:17 Yeah. BP: 48:18 Definitely. IG: 48:20 So, you know what- I am just wondering also the student composition were- you said you mentioned that, you know, there were students from Buffalo, but would you think that the majority were from New York City, Long Island? BP: 48:37 And yes, I think the majority were from New York City, Long Island, definitely. IG: 48:45 But you- did you gravitate to the New York City and Long Island kids, or to the Buffalo kids? BP: 48:52 Well, my friends turned out to be from Buffalo. IG: 48:56 Oh, that is just happened to be. BP: 48:58 Yeah. I am not sure why. IG: 49:00 Yeah. BP: 49:01 They were in my dorm. IG: 49:02 Yeah. Did you ever visit their family's house? BP: 49:07 No. IG: 49:09 Did anybody visit your family? Do you think? BP: 49:13 No, I do not think so. IG: 49:14 No. Well, do you remember any of the- how are we doing for time we still have it is, it is only 4:20. BP: 49:28 Yeah, we are fine. IG: 49:29 Rather, 4:20. BP: 49:30 Yeah, we are fine. IG: 49:31 Um, did your parents have any expectations of you going on to get a job after college or... BP: 49:42 No, they wanted me to get a graduate degree. IG: 49:45 A graduate degree. BP: 49:46 Yeah. IG: 49:49 So, did you get any direction from your advice- did you have a faculty advisor? Did you have a mentor who advised you about where to apply or you know, what was your interaction like with, sort of the academic community, I mean, with the faculty? BP: 50:10 Oh, another faculty member that I remember- IG: 50:13 Yeah. BP: 50:14 -was Peter Donovick. IG: 50:15 Yeah. BP: 50:17 And I think he encouraged me to go to graduate school in physiological psychology. Now there was another faculty member, Dan Fallon, but I do not remember whether I came- I became, I became close with him, but I do not remember whether it was as an undergraduate or after I had come back and was a graduate- I was a laboratory assistant. IG: 50:42 Yeah. BP: 50:43 I am not sure which period. IG: 50:45 But these three-faculty member, these three professors, had an impact. BP: 50:50 Yes. IG: 50:51 Did you ever stay in touch with them after graduating? BP: 50:54 No. IG: 50:55 No. BP: 50:58 Jim- trying to remember whether- IG: 51:04 What-what do you think you know? Why did they advise the schools that they did? I mean, what you said this, that one of the professors advised you to- BP: 51:16 [crosstalk] to go on, to pursue- IG: 51:17 To go on. Yeah. I mean, what do they think of your work? BP: 51:22 I think they thought it was that I was had a lot of potential. IG: 51:25 You had a lot of in-in research? BP: 51:29 Right in research. IG: 51:30 In psychological. BP: 51:30 Right. Because that is what the track that I was on. IG: 51:32 Yeah, I understand. And so, were there any small victories that you remember of as you know, a research assistant during those days. Where would you conduct the research? BP: 51:49 Well, I did a senior project. IG: 51:51 I see. BP: 51:52 And that was, that was really uh- IG: 51:55 What was a senior project? BP: 51:57 I studied the circadian, circadian rhythms of rats. And it was an ambitious project. IG: 52:06 Yeah. BP: 52:08 What I did was I had rats in an activity wheel. IG: 52:14 Right. BP: 52:15 So, they could, they could step out from their cage and run in an activity wheel whenever they wanted. IG: 52:20 Right. BP: 52:20 And if you tracked the activity, you noticed- IG: 52:25 Right. BP: 52:25 -that they had more activity, I think during the-[inaudible] nocturnal or not. IG: 52:33 Right. BP: 52:34 But they might have been more active at night. IG: 52:38 Right. BP: 52:38 And less active during the day- IG: 52:40 Yes. BP: 52:42 -or and then I tried to manipulate the lighting. IG: 52:44 Right. BP: 52:45 So, I put the lights on when they were most active. IG: 52:48 Right. BP: 52:49 Took them off when they were least active. IG: 52:51 Right. BP: 52:51 And they gradually switched. IG: 52:53 Yeah. BP: 52:54 And I did that for quite a while. IG: 52:55 Yeah. BP: 52:56 And then I-I put the light on all the time- IG: 53:01 Yeah. BP: 53:02 -and I saw, I tried to see whether the activity would revert back to the original cycle. IG: 53:07 Yeah. BP: 53:08 And I think it did. And I wrote about that, and I defended the thesis- IG: 53:09 It did. BP: 53:13 -stuff like that. IG: 53:13 Right. BP: 53:13 Yeah, it was, it was. IG: 53:13 Right. BP: 53:14 It was very good research experience. IG: 53:16 It was well received. Do you remember any of the accolades that you got from your faculty? BP: 53:29 No. IG: 53:30 You do not remember. So, when you went to the University of Rochester for your graduate degree, did you feel that Binghamton prepared you well? BP: 53:41 I think it did, and I must have done well, because Rochester is an excellent program. IG: 53:46 Yeah. BP: 53:47 It is a complete Center for Brain research. IG: 53:50 Right. BP: 53:50 And if I had gotten a PhD, I would have taken neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neurophysiology, neuropsychology and neurochemistry. IG: 54:00 Right. BP: 54:01 Which, I think I did take all those courses. IG: 54:03 Right. BP: 54:04 And I was- I felt like I was being held back emotionally for my tendency to be depressed from- IG: 54:14 excuse me [inaudible] BP: 54:16 A tendency to be depressed- IG: 54:18 Yes. BP: 54:18 -held me back emotionally from really doing my best intellectual work. IG: 54:23 Right. BP: 54:24 But that if that had not been there, Rochester would have been an excellent program for me to get a PhD. IG: 54:32 Right. BP: 54:33 And I had a friend who got there who got a PhD and then worked at the UCLA brain research and had a very successful career. IG: 54:49 I am kind of taking it all in and uh- BP: 54:54 But Binghamton definitely prepared me for it. IG: 54:56 Yeah. Do you feel um, a greater affiliation for Binghamton or for Rochester? BP: 55:06 Binghamton. IG: 55:07 Binghamton. Why is that? BP: 55:08 I spent more time there. IG: 55:10 yeah. BP: 55:11 It has been four years there. IG: 55:12 Yeah. BP: 55:13 I have, no I- there is, there is one friend from Rochester that I have kind of kept in touch with, but I have many more relationships from with Binghamton students. And there is just something about your undergraduate experience. There is more spirit there and more identification. IG: 55:38 I absolutely agree. Yeah. Were there any, I mean, you had a very tight knit circle of friends, and at Binghamton, do you remember- and they were all- what, you know, white middle class- BP: 55:57 Oh, yeah. IG: 55:58 Were there any, you know, students of color? Were there any international students going to Binghamton to Harpur College at the time? Do you remember that? BP: 56:10 I do not remember them. IG: 56:12 So, it was pretty- BP: 56:15 Pretty vanilla. IG: 56:16 Pretty homogeneous. BP: 56:17 Yeah. IG: 56:18 Pretty vanilla. BP: 56:19 Yeah. IG: 56:24 You know, did you care about, did you read about- what did you think about, you know, civil rights movement that was kind of really sweeping through [crosstalk] BP: 56:35 That is true. (19)64 is civil rights legislation. IG: 56:38 Yeah. So, did you know about that? Did you kind of- were you aware of that or not really? BP: 56:47 You know, I must have been, but I do not remember. IG: 56:49 You do not remember. BP: 56:50 I do not remember being aware of it, like I was aware of the war crosstalk] IG: 56:53 Of the war because it affected you directly. BP: 56:56 [crosstalk] yeah. IG: 56:56 You know the war. BP: 56:57 Yeah. IG: 56:58 So how did you follow the events of the ward. Were you watching television? Where was the television at the Student Center? BP: 57:08 I think there was a television in the lounge of the dorm. IG: 57:12 Oh, I see, I see. BP: 57:14 Because I remember watching Kennedy's funeral on that television. IG: 57:17 That must have been a shocker. BP: 57:18 Oh my gosh. It is one of those things where you never forget where you were. IG: 57:23 Did you think that, you know what we were under threat, or, you know what did you think? BP: 57:29 Oh, no, I thought it was just so very, very sad. IG: 57:33 Yeah. BP: 57:33 We loved Kennedy. IG: 57:34 Yeah. BP: 57:35 We just loved him. IG: 57:36 Right. BP: 57:37 And to have that taken out from under us was very sad, and his funeral was on my birthday. IG: 57:44 Oh. BP: 57:47 That was the worst birthday I have ever had. IG: 57:49 Yeah. BP: 57:52 So, I remember that very well. I remember Kennedy's assassination, and following- IG: 57:58 Why did you love Kennedy? BP: 58:00 He was- he had such a great sense of life, you know, and sense of humor. We loved his wit. We loved his press conferences, and we thought that he would- he had his heart was in the right place. IG: 58:30 How do you mean? BP: 58:36 I-I think he uh- I think I remember him doing things that made me feel like he would care about minorities. I do not remember exactly what he did, but I mean, probably Johnson did more for the civil rights movement, even Kennedy might have had power to do because Johnson was so good with Congress. IG: 59:07 Right. BP: 59:09 And one question that we always debated afterwards, after he was killed, and then later on- IG: 59:16 With your fellow students? BP: 59:17 Yeah. IG: 59:18 Fellow, I mean, with your friends. BP: 59:19 Right. Was- would Kennedy have dragged us into the war like Johnson did? And you know, our sense was that probably he would not have. IG: 59:32 Yeah. BP: 59:33 But who knows? We just do not know. IG: 59:36 Right. BP: 59:38 But the war is definitely what dominated our thinking [crosstalk] my thinking. I do not remember. I think I must have followed the civil rights march in (19)65 and Martin Luther King's famous speech, but I do not have as much of a recollection of that as I am the war. IG: 1:00:01 Did you talk about politics at home at all? Was that something that was talked to the dinner table? What-what were your parents? Republican demo? BP: 1:00:12 They were Democrat. IG: 1:00:14 Definitely Democrat. BP: 1:00:15 Yeah. IG: 1:00:17 Yeah. So- BP: 1:00:18 I do not think we talked too much about it, but they were definitely Democrats. IG: 1:00:26 Well, you know, do you have any recollections more that you want to share with us about Harpur College and your experience and the impact that you had that it had on you rather. BP: 1:00:44 Uh-huh, yeah. IG: 1:00:52 What-what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Maybe, as you put it. BP: 1:01:09 I think somehow the whole intellectual atmosphere of college gave me a real conviction that it was important to be intellectually honest, to really study something and be able to and just learn enough about it to really have an informed opinion. IG: 1:01:37 Just beautiful. Yeah. BP: 1:01:41 Yeah. I mean- IG: 1:01:42 And this was a principle that guided you through your life. BP: 1:01:51 Right. IG: 1:01:53 Did you impart this to your students when you were teaching? BP: 1:01:57 I tried to. IG: 1:01:59 What did you tell them? How did you translate that into terms that they could understand? BP: 1:02:06 Well, I was a math teacher. IG: 1:02:08 Yeah. BP: 1:02:09 And I would make- I would tell them, you know, do not take what I am saying just because I am saying it. Really try to understand where this rule or this law comes from. Make it your own. You know, nothing is true just because I am saying it. It all comes from logic and reasoning. And try to reason it out for yourself so that you understand it like I understand it. IG: 1:02:43 So are there any you know and you think that that you know Binghamton- BP: 1:02:54 Oh, yeah. IG: 1:02:56 -formed you in that way to be intellectually honest, BP: 1:03:02 Right. And I mean, I felt like my opinion about the Vietnam War was the most reasoned and intellectually honest opinion I have had almost about almost anything, because I read a whole book on it. I really learned about it, but where-where it started, and who was involved, and when I decided that I was against the war, I just felt like I had really-really good intellectual reasons for-for being against the war. IG: 1:03:37 I really like that. Are there any concluding remarks, as you have? BP: 1:03:53 I think Binghamton has a great reputation, and so I am very proud to be a graduate. Um- IG: 1:04:06 What would you say to future students who are listening or to this recording 10-20, years down the line? What would you say to them? BP: 1:04:18 I would say that going to Binghamton gives you an opportunity to dive into a great intellectual atmosphere and really exercise your mind and learn all kinds of things and make the most of the opportunity. IG: 1:04:37 I think that is wonderful. Thank you so much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barry Polsky Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in secondary education; Harpur College – Alumni living in the Boston area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Polsky, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Barry graduated with a degree in Psychology from Harpur. His career spanned different professions. He worked as researcher for a pharmaceutical firm; as a software engineer after earning a graduate degree in computer science. He drove a cab and before retirement worked as a high school math teacher. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Barry Polsky.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-03 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:47 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4b8924b08448b36c019a891ce6cd457f.jpg 559e1873e4ea0767790c3f3a02bfcb16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/76252f56ad490efa814725f7b1c4f049.mp3 160abfba508ff039465b4a63d9c85147 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David and Janet Muir Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text David is a retired philosophy professor who taught philosophy at Onondaga Community College. He owes a debt to Harpur College, which spurred his lifelong interest in philosophy. He met his wife, Janet, there. He earned his degree in philosophy from Syracuse University. Janet James Muir attended Harpur College for one year. She supported David through his graduate studies at Syracuse University before completing her own academic journey there, earning degrees in English and journalism, as well as a master’s in English literature. She later worked as an adjunct instructor in English at Onondaga Community College. They continue to reside in the Syracuse area. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Vietnam War; Harpur College – Alumni living in Marcellus, New York; Harpur College – Alumni in Higher Education - Spouses of Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Former Harpur students in higher education; Harpur College – Former Harpur students living in Marcellus, NY Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David and Janet Muir Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, so David, please tell me your name, your full name, your birth date, our relationship, and where we are. DM: 00:13 My name is David Muir. I was born in 1945 April-April 13--the day after Roosevelt died. IG: 00:29 The day? Excuse me. DM: 00:30 The day after FDR died. IG: 00:32 Yes-yes. DM: 00:33 Died April 12. So I know, I know exactly what the headlines were in every paper in the country on the day of my birth. [laughs] And we are in my home, which is in Marcellus, New York, Dunbar Woods Road. IG: 00:52 Okay, very good. Do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Okay, all right, so tell me a little bit about your family background. What did your parents do? Where did you live? DM: 01:13 I grew up in Western New York. My father was all his life an unskilled laborer. Worked in various jobs throughout his life. My mother was a homemaker when I was first born. She went back to school to Buffalo State Teachers College, got a teaching degree, and taught second grade after that. And so I was not the first one to go to college, but my middle brother, I am one of three boys. My middle brother, Richard, also went to college. He went to Buffalo State and got a degree in Art Education. My youngest brother Tim decided not to attend college after thinking he was going to go to Harpur College as well, but he- IG: 02:20 Thinking what? DM: 02:21 He was going to go to Harpur College. IG: 02:23 I see. DM: 02:23 But did not. IG: 02:24 But you-you did. DM: 02:25 I-I did, and so-so uh, and I went in, you know, graduated high school in (19)63 and entered Harpur College in that fall on the trimester. IG: 02:39 What were the expectations of you and your family in terms of education? Did they encourage you to go to college? DM: 02:52 Yeah, it was understood- my brother, my youngest brother, not going to college was the exception. It was understood all the way through that-that we were going to college. My- I went to high school, and that had homogeneous grouping they had actually pioneered at Kenmore. The Kenmore system had pioneered homogeneous grouping, so that we had blue circle groups, which were the students who were thought to be most advanced, were given more advanced instruction, and I was part of the blue circle group from the time I was in junior high right up through senior high. So, in my expedition, I was surrounded by students, all of whom had the expectation that we were all going to college. And it varied, you know, what their backgrounds were, whether their parents had gone to school. But I did grow up in, you know, in Kenmore, in the school system I was in, and in the particular classes I had, that was everybody's expectation as we were going to college. IG: 04:15 And so why did you decide on Harpur College? Was this your first choice? Or how many other colleges did you apply to? DM: 04:25 I ended up only applying to Harpur. Dean Porter came to Kenmore at Ken-Kenmore West, it was and they had divided into two different high schools. So he came to Kenmore West, where I was going to school, and it was a college night, and I talked to him, and he was tremendously enthusiastic about Harpur College. He was a tremendous sales salesperson for the, for this school. And I had some-some literature about it, and checked on it, and I just decided from that time on, that would have been November of (19)62, November of my senior year, that that is where I was going to go. And uh- IG: 05:17 What-what do you remember? What reputation did Harpur College have at the time? DM: 05:25 It was, I think, just building a reputation. But what-what it did have was a very low student-faculty ratio. It had a very high percentage of PhDs on the faculty already, and number of those PhDs were very young. So it- if you read about it, it was impressive. But the joke when we were there is, you know, you would say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harpur," "Harvard?" "No-no. Harpur," but the joke was, yeah, but in 20 years, somebody's going to say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harvard." "Harpur?" "No-no, Harvard." [laughs] IG: 06:03 So what reputation did Harpur College have at the time? DM: 06:08 Just building? I think it had a good reputation. It was the first liberal arts college in-in the state of New York, and I think because there was lots of money going into this. And the Rockefeller years, as I say it-it did not have a reputation that outside of probably New York State, many people would have recognized it, but-but as I say it was, it was building a reputation. IG: 06:40 It was building a reputation. And what did you, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study? DM: 06:49 Well, yes and no, I-I was sure that I was going to study philosophy, but I did not have a really clear idea what that meant, but that is what I ended up doing. I majored in philosophy and then went on from there to dig it, came up here to Syracuse, and got a master's and PhD in philosophy. So. IG: 07:13 From Syracuse in philosophy. DM: 07:15 Yeah, so-so what I had thought I was going to do turned out to be what I did do. So I guess, guess in a sense, and guess in a sense, I had, I had a clear idea of what I thought I wanted to do, and then I had to sort of discover that it really was what I wanted to do. IG: 07:33 And so when you first arrived on campus, I mean, what- how did it strike you? Was it-it-it [crosstalk] a huge difference from the environment that you were used to? DM: 07:49 Well, the major difference was coming from upstate New York, the percentage of downstairs who were there. That was a huge difference. The first time I visited, it was a sea of mud, and you walked on planks because they were just finishing the dorm, a set of dorms that we saw. So it-it was not extremely impressive in that way, when I got to campus and-and the- those dormitories had been completed, it was, I guess, it was an atmosphere somewhat similar to what I was used to in high school, because, because of the homogeneous grouping, I was used to being surrounded by other students who were highly motivated. And there was a whole college of them. Our incoming graduating average of the class I came in with was somewhere around 63, or excuse me, 93 in (19)63, but it was somewhere around 90-93 was the incoming average. You had a number of people, the people who did not like being at college were people who were very bright. Wanted to go to Ivy League schools. Some of them had gotten in but could not afford them because they did not get financial aid, and they were unhappy because they thought that if they were there, their lives would be perfect. And then there were a whole lot of us who were perfectly happy. IG: 09:24 Did you find any differences between yourself and the students from downstate? Did you think that there were any cultural differences or...? DM: 09:38 Not-not. No, yeah. IG: 09:41 I mean, downstream, New York City, and Long Island. DM: 09:43 Well, one of the, one of the things was that a number of them were from the, cannot remember, what is the PS program, something which meant they graduated at the age of 16. So there were a number of-of not-not the ones from Long Island, but a number of the people from the city were young, but these were people who became friends right away, as far as--well, still, we were just together at New Year's time with friends from Harpur who have been friends ever since. Of those friends, let us see two from Long Island and the rest from the city. Well, no and one from upstate, one other actually from Syracuse, but met him in Binghamton. IG: 10:46 So how so you have this tight-knit circle of friends that you have kept throughout- DM: 10:51 Oh yeah-yeah. IG: 10:52 -your life, actually. DM: 10:54 Oh yeah, yes, from, yeah, there-there-there were only, let us see, eight of us got together this time because one person who comes regularly had knee surgery, lives down in New Jersey. His wife is not a Harpur grad, and Janet is not a Harpur grad, but, but, but we met. She was, she was a freshman, the same time I was, so we entered together. [Janet speaks in the background] IG: 11:27 What was that meeting like? Speaker 1 11:30 Well, I think we met first because we met her roommate, who was at the- IG: 11:37 Reception, yeah. DM: 11:38 The reception, Bev Gross, but Bev Gross came bursting back into their-their dorm room and said, I met somebody else from Buffalo, as if, is it- that was the rarest thing in the world? Not only was there one person, but she had met two others [laughter] at the cafeteria. Uh, but we met, I think the-the first thing was Patty's Wake, which was the introductory party that started off the-the semester back then. IG: 12:17 Oh, tell me about that. Because this is a rich this-this is, you know, something that I really do not know. DM: 12:24 Oh, Patty's Wake we got, we got on buses-buses and went in. Oh, I am trying to remember the name of the bar. It was- JM: 12:31 Sharkies. DM: 12:32 No-no. Was not Sharkies. No. Sharkies was a, was a good place. This was a, this was a dive, but it was on the bus route, and so he and so all the freshmen would go. The-the story of Paddy was that Patty died because he studied too hard and-and never had any fun, and finally he just wore away. So this was so in celebration of Patty's Wake. This was the back then, the annual first-first thing that freshmen went off campus to do was go off and-and drink. What was it? 25-cent drafts or something like that? IG: 13:10 And did it? Did it happen around St Patrick's Day or...? DM: 13:15 No-no, this was, this was in the first this was in the first week of being here. IG: 13:15 Oh, semester, I see. DM: 13:17 Very beginning of the semester, probably orientation week. I do not know it was, it was, yeah, this was the first thing and all, yeah. So the freshmen went off [inaudible], so we met there. And-and then we have, we have been together forever since. JM: 13:37 We actually met in Whitney dorm. DM: 13:38 Okay, did we meet? JM: 13:39 [inaudible] came in and said- DM: 13:40 Oh my god, did she, did she introduce- JM: 13:42 The dining hall [inaudible] DM: 13:44 Okay, she introduced, yeah, because I had thought we had, because-because that was the first, and Patty's Wake was the very first week. Yeah. So anyway, that was so you drank a lot of cheap beer. And everybody you know, all the freshmen overdrank, and the 16-year-old managed to get in somehow, and even though they were illegal. But it was 18. Was the drinking age back then? JM: 14:07 It was a dry campus. DM: 14:09 Yeah-yeah. It was. It was a dry campus because the student government kept being told that it was a state rule that you could not have a pub on campus. You could not have alcohol on campus, and then, oh, somewhere second or third year that I was there, some young, some of the-the student government leaders, went to Albany and found out there was not any such rule, and that began the process of bringing the pub onto campus. We mean, there is no rule we cannot do this. IG: 14:49 Janet is on the conversation, which is a wonderful thing. Janet, would you mind introducing yourself so we would please tell us. your name, your birth date, and you know what your affiliation with Binghamton is, well, with Harpur College. JM: 15:09 [inaudible] Janet, actually James Muir. James is my maiden name. I was born on March 30, 1946. I went to Harpur, not as my first choice, again for financial reasons. I was not admitted in the fall semester, I- but I was put on a waiting list, and I could go in the summer ahead, if I wanted to, but I did not have, you know, the highest average from high school. I went to a very small school, smaller graduating class than David did. So I was a bit overwhelmed, I would say, by, you know, the whole size and atmosphere at Harpur. But what was fun was we were in the Co-Ed dorm, and at that time, they had the curfews, and so, you know, it was unusual to be able to meet, you know, David and the others, and we had friends in the dorm that would do things as a group, and that was really fun. That was really a nice thing to do, but at that time, they were switching to the trimester, and the course load was very heavy, so I found it overwhelming, which is why I did not stay past the first year. IG: 16:44 Past the first year. JM: 16:44 Yeah-yeah. IG: 16:45 Okay. And where are you from? JM: 16:49 We are from Eastern Elmo, New York, Western New York. David is from the north of the city, and I am from the south, IG: 16:56 I see, I see. JM: 16:57 So we had to go to Binghamton to meet. IG: 17:02 So, where did you continue your education? JM: 17:04 Well, when I went back home, worked at Fisher Price toy company, and David and I were married when I was 19, and he was 20. He was still at Harpur, just finishing. DM: 17:19 And I still had a year to still had two semesters to go. JM: 17:22 Right. So we lived in Johnson City, was it, Floral Avenue? We had an apartment there. I worked at Endicott Johnson while he went to school. DM: 17:35 And then we came up here. I continued graduate school. She worked at Upstate Medical and then decided she wanted to go back to school. IG: 17:45 So what-what did you do? JM: 17:47 I went down at a community college. I graduated from there, and then I transferred into Syracuse University, and I have a master's in English literature, an undergrad degree in English literature and journalism. DM: 18:01 Oh, so you remember [crosstalk] JM: 18:04 It took me about 10 years to get back. IG: 18:06 I mean, you were supporting a husband, right? JM: 18:08 Yeah. And when he graduated, I said, “Okay, it is my turn now.” IG: 18:14 And so-so what did you, what did you do in your working life? You were uh- JM: 18:19 I worked in the offices Medicare at Upstate Medical. I worked in business offices at both Fisher Price and Endicott-Johnson. Actually, I started at Fisher Price on the assembly line, and-and I said to myself, I do not want to be a lifer putting these together. So I took a test for the computer. What do I want to say skills which I did not have? I mean, nobody did at that time, but they brought me into the office, and I worked in their office after that. So that started me in the office. IG: 19:00 I see, I see. Well, so as-as married students, you had a completely different perspective on- DM: 19:11 Yeah, we- IG: 19:11 -the college. DM: 19:13 Yeah. Well, let us see. We arrived in the fall of (19)63 November, because that was the second trimester. Excuse me, and I went home to Buffalo the first summer. And then when I came back, I stayed right straight through until I had finished. So I actually I am commencement class of (19)67, but I finished my degree at the end of October (19)66, so I was back for my-my commencement in (19)67, but so for the last two trimesters. Janet and I lived on Floral Avenue off campus, but we still had, you know, our friends came over to our house. [laughs] IG: 20:17 So it was, it was a kind of seamless transition for you to, you know, move from dormitory life to your own apartment. DM: 20:29 Yeah-yeah. It was not, I do not remember any anything in terms of-of any kind of special adjustment. The only thing that was really tough was I had the ideal senior schedule. No class started before noon, but I had to drop Janet off. I- we had to be up before six o'clock because Janet started work at Endicott Johnson. I think it was something like 7:30, and I had to drive her to Endicott-Johnson, drop her off, drive over to campus, get there about eight o'clock, and not have any classes until noon. JM: 21:05 It is time to study. DM: 21:07 And-and because most of my friends were either seniors or juniors, they were still asleep at eight. And so I would go down into the common room at Whitney and-and study or-or nap. IG: 21:25 I am curious, how did you conduct your courtship leading to a marriage at a college with curfews, especially for women? DM: 21:36 Yes, well, on-on her-her birthday that-that spring, one of our friends came back with a car for the second semester, the only car among all of us. Alan Gurwitz and my mother had had walking pneumonia when I was in high school, and with three boys, we had to take over doing her chores for a summer. And my chore at that time was ironing, and so I had learned to iron, and back then, you did not have wrinkle-free shirts. And so I offered to iron five shirts for Alan if he would lend me the car for Janet's birthday. He told me afterwards, if I would told him one shirt, he would have given me the car. Five shirts, he was in heaven. So I ironed five shirts for him, and got the car, and we went off, had dinner, and then went to see Lawrence of Arabia, which is too long a film. IG: 22:51 Yes. DM: 22:51 Because this was a weekend, and her curfew was not 10:30, which it was during the week, but noon, excuse me, noon. Yeah, midnight, midnight. And so, yeah, noon, [laughter] midnight, and we got, we got to-to the intermission in Lawrence of Arabia, looked at the at the time and thought, there was no way in the world we were going to have a 15- or 20-minute intermission. Watch the whole second half and get back to make curfew. So I do not think Janet ever saw the second half of Lawrence of Arabia for another 15 years, nor did I, but no we- courting, I think is fairly easy on a college campus. If you have a close relationship, you see every you see each other every day. JM: 23:45 Yeah. DM: 23:45 So for that first year, and by the end of the first year, we were pretty much committed to each other. Then we lived in Western New York, so when I went home for that-that summer, Janet was on the south side, I was on the north side, but I was back and forth. You know, all the time I worked at a wholesale florist, which is where my father was working. At that time, he was a salesman for a wholesale florist, and I got a job there, and they would throw out flowers that were beginning to turn a little bit on the wholesale level, which meant that they were still really good, because they had not even gone to retail yet. And so all that summer Janet had roses, probably- DM: 24:34 -because they would throw out sprigs. The guy who handled the orchids, as soon as there was one spot on one of the orchids, and they come in sprigs, you know, as soon as you saw one brown spot, they would go out. And we were not supposed to pick them up, but I was not going to let these gorgeous orchids lie in the garbage. So I would pick them up and [inaudible], so she would get sprigs of orchids for that in that summer. JM: 24:35 And orchids. That convinced me. I married this guy. [laughs] IG: 24:40 That is lovely. JM: 24:44 Yeah. DM: 25:02 So-so, and then I went back to school. JM: 25:05 But also because in Whitney, we played ping pong all the time. We socialized all the time because it was a co-ed dorm. DM: 25:13 Yeah-yeah. The atmosphere, the atmosphere in Whitney, was very different. And of course, this was a different era. You know the- this was a radical notion of having one wing male and one wing female. I mean that, and that was as far as it went. At 10:30, you had the common areas were separated. The men had the upstairs, the women had the downstairs. All of, all the vending machines were downstairs. So people would call down if they would hear one of the women downstairs call down, throw down money, and they would get, they would get things from the vending machines and throw them back up. But- and the other interesting thing is that when the 10:30 curfew occurred, a bunch of us, one-one night, sat down, and one of me said, "Okay," right, you know, "Why-why do the women, why do the women have a curfew," right? And you know, what would we think if we had a curfew? So-so remember, this was the (19)60s, when things were being challenged. And of course, by the time we were done- JM: 26:24 [inaudible] early (19)60s. DM: 26:25 This is the early (19)60s. This is (19)63. JM: 26:28 (19)63-(19)64. DM: 26:28 And so this is when things are just beginning to be challenged. But-but tremendous change. By the time the- a number of our good friends left. They were in Co-Ed suites, in-in-in, what the-the? JM: 26:50 Hinman [inaudible] DM: 26:52 Yeah, the Hinman, the com- the complex is over there. JM: 26:56 Yeah. DM: 26:56 I mean, when we were there, they none of the, none of this was well- JM: 26:59 And, you know, because of the separate wings, we would have open houses, and you would be able to visit the others' rooms. IG: 27:03 Right. JM: 27:03 Leaving the door open, leaving, what, three- DM: 27:12 Three feet on the floor and a door open. IG: 27:14 So I am, I am interested, how did do you remember challenging any of these rules, or questioning these notions about segregating the sexes? Um, I mean- DM: 27:26 Not there were not any, there were not any major- IG: 27:28 Your-your close friends. DM: 27:30 We talked about it. I do not think there were any. We did not get involved in any actual protests of it that I recall JM: 27:38 How about the boards? They would, they call them, the student- DM: 27:44 Judicial Board? JM: 27:45 Judicial Board to deal with- DM: 27:48 Yeah, people who buy violated curfew, yeah. We were the only dorm that had males on the on that-that panel, because, in every, in every yeah- JM: 28:01 [inaudible] feeling that this was not fair. DM: 28:03 Yeah, you try to be. Yeah. because I served on it for-for a semester. We had friends who served on it. IG: 28:11 So if you had so the judicial board that you served on, how would the complaints or escalate? Who would hear them? What impact would that have? DM: 28:25 Yeah. Mostly it was, yeah. Mostly, it was a violation of curfew, and you just had to decide. And there were penalties, you know, you had to decide, and whether there was a legitimate excuse, right? JM: 28:36 [inaudible] campus, you would be restricted. DM: 28:39 Yeah, and the- so it was, you know, that I think at that point we thought that it was ridiculous, but at that point we were not ready to-to start protesting. I think that came about just sort of naturally, as I say, by the time we were finishing up, the campus situation had changed tremendously from-from what it was, but it did. It did create for us a unique atmosphere unlike any of the other dorms. Because we did, it was just a group of friends, and somebody say, you know, tired of studying, you would walk down to one of the common rooms, say, "Anybody interested in going to see a ball game?" If there happened to be a ball game that, right? You know, basketball game, we go down and-and together, and it would just be whoever was there. And when we got a little bit older, and people, more people, had cars, the place we would go, Oh, I almost had the name of the, of the dive, but I cannot remember, we go to Sharkies. The fact that is where we did not go to the dinner that was sponsored at the reunion. The group of us who were there went to Sharkies because that was, that was the place we-we would go to speedies. Third speaker 29:55 I have a question related to that. So were there any women, like in your dorm that rebelled against this idea and took an initiative? DM: 30:10 Not that I recall, I think that, I think there were some complaints about it, but at this point, this was pretty much what the practices were everywhere, you know, was not, it was not, it was not as, yeah, it was not as, yeah, it was not as if it this was something unique to Harpur, you know, I kind of understand. So I do not remember any-any kind of organized protest. I just remember that, you know, people are beginning to question it, and- JM: 30:42 It was more restrictive than what I had at home. DM: 30:45 Yeah-yeah. That was something else saying, [crosstalk] yeah-yeah-yeah. A lot, a lot of- for some of the 16-year-olds out of the city, it was different, I think. IG: 30:57 How so? DM: 30:58 Well, because they were 16 years old, although I mean, I have a lot of city friends, and city friends are sophisticated in some ways, and parochial in others. IG: 31:08 How so? DM: 31:10 Well, because they-they are exposed to-to culture in the city of a rich kind. I mean, New York is one of the greatest cities in the world. So you are exposed to-to a richness of culture that you just do not have in certainly any other city in New York State, and in few cities in the world that you can match that. So they have that. But by the same token, a lot of them just know New York City. [crosstalk] So, yeah, so it is, you know. So, it is you know that there was an expansion of their world to be in upstate New York. JM: 31:51 We took some friends to Western New York, to our good friends' farm, dairy farm, and they were like, "Cows. Wow!" Me, "This is where milk comes from." IG: 32:08 I am curious about the youth movement that was kind of growing in momentum in around that time, (19)63-(19)64. Did it have any influence on you? You know, rock and roll was beginning, um, or...? DM: 32:30 Well, the-the actually- IG: 32:33 Sexual freedoms, drugs, that was all in the air, that was kind of filtering through- JM: 32:38 And Vietnam. IG: 32:40 -and Vietnam, which I will [inaudible]. Absolutely. DM: 32:45 The theme of our orientation, which was chosen by the upperclassmen who ran the program, was all the orientation was completely run by students, as I recall it, but their theme was, do not think that at your age, you have to now know what you are going to do for the rest of your life. Take your time. If you know who says you have to be done in four years, you can take as much time as you want, take a take a semester off, take a year off. Do right! If you are not sure, find out what you want to do. And three years later, you could not do that without finding yourself in Vietnam. So it was a tremendous- that was, that was one of the biggest changes, was that, all right, I mean, the-the war in (19)63 was-was not anything yet that had had really was affecting people. Yeah, I had a good colleague who graduated from West Point and was over there as an advisor in the early days of Vietnam. But I-when we went on the campus, that was not an issue. It became an issue. As I said, it became an issue of, I was reclassified as A three times, but never went. IG: 34:09 I am sorry. DM: 34:10 I was reclassified one A, which, right, which meant immediately draft eligible three times, but I was never drafted. I was as I finished up at Harpur in the fall of (19)66, and I was immediately reclassified one A I challenged that I was going to challenge it as an objector because I did not agree. I did not think we should be in Vietnam. Changed that to arguing that I was class of (19)66, not class of (19)67, because even though it was my commencement class, and if you were (19)66 on and you were accepted to grad school, you continued to get a student deferment, and my draft board accepted that argument. And so I was defied that gave me my deferment until I finished grad- graduate, grad school. And then I forget how it came that it was the three times, but-but by the time I finally was draft eligible, they had had the lottery system, and they never got to my number. They were nowhere near getting to my number. IG: 35:27 I am sorry- DM: 35:28 They never got anywhere near my number. They- the war was winding down. Then I finished my graduate work in (19)71, right? And so I never had to. I-I had to face it in the sense that I went through a I went through a physical in Buffalo. I got called for a physical. Went through a whole physical. JM: 35:50 And a lot of soul searching. DM: 35:52 Oh yeah, because I did not, because I did not, I had pretty much decided I would not, I would not serve in the war, because I did not think that it was a war that we should have been in. And so- IG: 36:05 Was that, was that a common feeling among your friends? DM: 36:09 Yes. IG: 36:11 On campus? DM: 36:12 Among the friends that we were just with or get together with regularly, two of them were-were graduates of-of (19)66 and-and they got their-their deferments and managed not to go. One of them got his medical degree and served in the Public Health Service out in Arizona with the Native Americans. But of-of those groups, one way or another, none of us ever ended up going to Vietnam. Another one was a conscientious objector, but a racist and an atheist, and his draft board rejected it because he did not have a religious affiliation. He refused. He refused induction. Was a fugitive from justice for two and a half years, without them ever pursuing him. He- his first wife, and he decided on a divorce because she, although she agreed with him, she did not want to, you know, continue that; it was an amicable divorce. But they were, you know, they were also a Harpur couple. He continued on his own. He ended up in, I think it was in Philadelphia, at a Quaker protest, a sit-down protest, and when they checked his record and found out, all of a sudden, they put cuffs on him. Off he went. He had to go to, but when his case came up, the judge looked at it and said, "This is the most arbitrary decision I have ever seen by a draft board," because he had, he had documentation of his conscientious objective status, and they just rejected it because he had no religious affiliation. So after all of that right, he was, he was free, and the case was dismissed. But all of us, all of us, that was, I think, the-the largest issue, and I- none of us favored the war, and all of us, through good fortune, were able to avoid service. IG: 38:32 And yet you grew, you probably experienced a very pervasive sense of anxiety, and that that really had an impact on your personal lives. DM: 38:45 Yeah, that, yeah. Once I once I was given the, once my draft board accepted my status, as long as I was in graduate school, my anxiety, well, I actually was not, I think I got reclassified as I when I completed my master's, but they immediately reversed that on the basis that I was continuing the PhD program, that there was no, there was no break in my- in my graduate school. IG: 39:16 Right. DM: 39:16 So I had to, I had the master's degree, but it was, it was continuous graduate school, and so that was, I think, the second time. But that did not, that did not upset me, because at that point, I think I pretty much knew that it would be automatic, that I could write, that I could get it. So the most tension we had was when I was first reclassified, and we were- IG: 39:40 At Harpur College? DM: 39:41 We had just finished Harpur College. Actually, we were up here in Syracuse, because I, and I cannot remember was-was the reclassification come when- JM: 39:58 I think it must have been up here in Syracuse. DM: 40:03 Yes, it had. Yeah. JM: 40:03 Because we were here in (19)67. DM: 40:03 Yeah, but, yeah, but-but as soon as I, as soon as I graduated in (19)66, so it may have been, it may have been, it may have been November. It may have been November, December. I think it was November or December. And we were still down in Binghamton, yeah, was right after out of Harpur, we were still living in Floral Avenue that-that-that was the, that was the greatest tension for those two months. IG: 40:22 So, did you feel any support from your professors? Did they shelter you somehow? Did they encourage you to stay in school and pursue your graduate degrees to avoid the draft? Did you feel that kind of involvement from faculty or...? DM: 40:41 When okay at Harpur, it, I do not remember it being an issue within my classes at Harpur. It was an issue when I was in graduate school here, and in talking to a person who was the chair of the department, he sort of, he did not really agree with me, but he did not say outright that. He did not. He did it in a sort of backhanded way. But so in that one instance, JM: 40:42 But that was in Syracuse. DM: 41:14 Yeah, but at Harpur, I do not, I do not remember being involved again. I was off campus, you know, from the time we were married. And I do not remember any- anything. On campus itself, except that the general atmosphere, pretty much of almost everyone I knew, was that the war was a mistake. So-so that I think that pretty much predominated. I do not know that we knew people who-who really were in favor of the of the war. Certainly, none of our close friends were. IG: 42:12 And do you suspect the-the faculty? DM: 42:16 My suspicion would- was that the faculty was, for the most part, not pro-war either. IG: 42:22 What do you remember about- were there any influential professors that you remember from Harpur College and that they took a personal interest in you and your career? DM: 42:35 Yeah, the very first philosophy course I took, still not really understanding fully what philosophy was-was-was from, and by the name of C. Wade Savage, yes, because he went by Wade. And by the- my first philosophy paper, I got a D minus, minus. He did not fail me, but I ended up getting an A in the course. And he wrote a really nice note at the end, saying, you know, because I had let him know that, you know, that this was, you know, this is something that I really thought I wanted to pursue, and I had other people were writing philosophy papers- were coming and talking to me and writing their papers. And I-I started out very poorly, but he wrote me an encouraging note. And then I, there were two others that I took most of my courses from somebody else, who did not use his first name. Thomas was his first name, but he went by Patterson, T. Patterson Brown, and who was and very young. Brown was published when he was an Amherst, at Amherst as an undergraduate, and I think got his PhD from the University of London at age 24-25 and was hired. And then Emilio Roma, who also was very young. So these were all people who were only six, seven, maybe eight years older than I was, who were there, and I got encouragement. In fact, Roma had what I thought was the ideal life. He lived with his wife in a farmhouse across the border in Pennsylvania, because I did my senior thesis with him, and-and I was finishing up over the summer semester, and he was not teaching the summer semester, so I-I drove to his house to go over, go over it with him. And he had two absolutely beautiful children living in this rural setting, you know, as a professor of philosophy, and I thought, what a wonderful world, and he died young. I cannot remember now how many years ago, but I remember seeing a notice that- IG: 45:08 Do you think he might have been a role model for you, that- DM: 45:14 I certainly-certainly, the he had. What for me was an ideal life, you know, as because, as a philosopher, if you do not teach, they do not hire many industrial philosophers. [laughter] So-so-so yeah, so, so he had, yeah, and I got encouragement from him. I got encouragement from Brown. I took a couple of courses with Brown where there were only junior level. There were only four or five of us in the class, so it was a lot of one-on-one discussion. He was the one who had me go to Syracuse. Brown encouraged me to go on to Syracuse because I was, I was interested at that time in philosophy of religion, but at that time, philosophy of religion was sort of dying out. And he said, "Yeah, well, you got Austin at-at Michigan," but he said, "I would not really go there." He said, "Better go someplace that has a really solid foundation in the history of philosophy. You are better off building on that, and then you can specialize later." And he said, "Syracuse has a, has a good program." So I was accepted into three different programs, but because I was finishing in the beginning of November, nobody had money, right? Everybody said, “No, you can apply, but you are not going to be able to get financial assistance until the following fall.” And so one of the three places I was skeptic to was San Diego, University of California in San Diego, North Carolina, Chapel Hill and Syracuse, all accepted me. All said, you know, you can apply for financial aid, but we are not going to have any available. So- JM: 47:18 Neither one of us came from wealthy families [crosstalk] DM: 47:21 So we were not going to go all the way out. We were not going to relocate that far without any guarantee. So we came up here to Syracuse, and I was on finance. I had a NEA fellowship, and I had a, I got a Woodrow Wilson dissertation fellowship, so I finished without having to pay a cent in-in tuition, except for the first semester, that I had to go in and back then, that was affordable. IG: 47:50 Well, I have this question, actually two questions. But first of all, what was the emphasis of the philosophy department at Harpur College of the time? Did it have a focus on the philosophy of religion, or what kind of philosophy were you studying? DM: 48:12 I was, I was taking a smattering of courses. I do not know that I thought of them as having any emphasis, mainly because, remember, there was no, there were no grad programs. And if you have a program in philosophy, it was geared for graduate programs. They were building one. In fact, the joke used to be retired studying, let us, let us go over the Esplanade and look for the graduate student. I do not remember how many. I remember only one ever being identified. So, you know, they were just building grad programs. So Harpur was pretty much a, you know, the range of courses, and I think, if you were majoring in philosophy, they expected you to take a range, and you might find something that you were mostly interested in. I did- ended up in esthetics with Roma. Brown taught philosophy or religion, and as I said, he sort of discouraged me from pursuing that. But again, saying that, rather than pursue anything immediately, you know, pursue-pursue, general background history of philosophy, because that gives you a foundation to go any-any direction you want. IG: 49:30 You had a very important experience in your first philosophy class, from you know, you were- you did poorly on your first test, and then you completed it with flying colors. What do you think what changed you, and what did you learn from that first course? Do you recall it at all? DM: 49:55 Well, it was, it was, I think that it was simply a matter of-of focusing differently, on-on the issue. I cannot even remember exactly what I had done wrong in the in the first one, that was such a disaster. But again, just, I think, I think, being in class, engaging in the classroom discussions. I think getting encouragement through the give and take within the classroom is what probably brought me to, you know, to doing better. IG: 50:36 You said, you said, when you first came to Harpur, you had no understanding of what philosophy was, but you wanted to study it. What did you learn in that first class about philosophy? Why did it open- DM: 50:52 Well, I think that it involved [crosstalk], it involved critical thinking about important human questions. That is, that is because I spent my-my career teaching and teaching on a community college level. So I was teaching freshmen and sophomores, and so what I did for my whole career as a teacher of philosophy was to focus on how to develop critical thinking skills and apply those to the questions that human beings find-find most important. So I think that became my-my emphasis from the time I you know, from-from Harpur College on and right-right through my professional career. JM: 50:53 Excuse me, but your classes, what was the class size? And you are talking about the give and take of discussion- DM: 50:53 Yeah. JM: 50:53 -and that depends. I mean, I remember the student ratio was very good, right? And so your classes were very small. DM: 51:29 Yeah. I think the biggest class I probably had in philosophy was probably no more than about 25 students, and a lot of them were-were smaller, as I said, I took several classes with-with-with Patterson Brown, that there were, you know, six, seven of us in in the class. And, of course, there you get, you know, it was, it was very-very immediate, give and take. JM: 52:18 When you get the lecture hall experience- DM: 52:19 Yeah, vastly, [crosstalk] different, yeah. JM: 52:20 -different than philosophy, DM: 52:25 But- Speaker 4 52:27 Small classes. And did you have an occasion to discuss the ideas that you learned in class with your classmates and- DM: 52:37 Some of it was interesting. None of, none of the close friends of mine were philosophy majors. They major in lots of different things, chem majors, bio majors. They went on- JM: 52:49 Psychology majors- DM: 52:50 -psychology majors- JM: 52:51 -math majors. DM: 52:52 Yeah. So, no, what most of my discussions were when people found they had to take a philosophy class. Friends of mine who were not into philosophy would come and talk to me about-about that, and I would- I was able to help. I think some of them JM: 53:12 And your roommates saying, "David, you are not [inaudible].” DM: 53:15 Oh yes, I remember there was a running joke roommates or various friends would come into the room and when I would be lying back on the on my bed, say, "Do not you ever study?" And I say, "Yeah, I am." But- IG: 53:35 So did- DM: 53:36 Actually, that is true, because before you write a philosophy paper, a lot of it is simply the- you know, the working out through your head, what you know, what-what-what you are going to do with it, but, but that was a running joke. IG: 53:50 So, do you credit your professors at Harpur College in really giving you the foundation for your future career? DM: 54:01 Oh, yeah-yeah. I-I thought I had a wonderful education. I think all of the good friends that we have all considered that they had a really solid-solid foundation from-from Harpur College. I think almost all of us are proud to be graduates of Harpur College. By the way, one of, one of the people who was there when I was there, was there when we came back for the trimester thing, Anthony Preus. I do not know if he is still there or not. Professor Preus, Professor Preus, he was in. He ancient-ancient philosophy was his-his area. JM: 54:25 Which is one of the areas that you I went into. DM: 54:49 Later on, yeah, but as I say there, I touched on various things. The only thing that I specialized at all in was I wrote my uh, senior thesis in esthetics. But for the rest of the time, it was just touching on lots of, lots of different periods of the history of philosophy in the different areas. You know, I took a logic course, I took an ethics course, and Third speaker 55:12 So you were into classical thinking, classical- DM: 55:20 Well, I have- Third speaker 55:21 Plato? DM: 55:23 Yeah, when I ended up doing my-my-my doctorate in-in Plato, on Plato, on Plato's esthetics, actually, so, so. JM: 55:35 But you used the Socratic method in your teaching. DM: 55:37 Yeah [laughter] IG: 55:41 Did you discuss what you were learning with your wife since you were living off campus? Did you how do you remember him during this period? JM: 55:54 I do not know. It is hard to say I remember one of the things, not while he was at Harpur, but when he was working on his dissertation, going to the beach while I was in- at work. DM: 56:06 That was my master's thesis. [laughter] I had a, I had a summer in which I was all of my courses were paid for because I was on a fellowship, and it covered the credits for my master's thesis. And so I was registered as a full-time student for all those credits, but my task was simply to write my master's thesis, and I would drop her off at work, and I would drive to Green Lake State Park, [laughter] spread my blanket on the beach, and get out my books. [laughs] And if, if a friend of ours had not come back and needed to be driven around looking for a job, I would have actually completed it at the beach. I was- had almost written the last part. JM: 56:57 I also typed his papers. And then when it came to his PhD, I said, "No [inaudible], I am not going to type your PhD." IG: 57:05 So you know, were there any women in your philosophy classes? DM: 57:15 Yes, one I remember by name Laurie Billing, because the person who was most influential in my undergraduate was Patterson Brown. And Patterson Brown was married. At the time, he divorced his wife, and he married Laurie Billing. [laughter] So yeah, and Laurie and I used to sit around and talk about because we- she took a number of courses from Brown as well as I did. So we knew each other from a number of different courses. So she and I would, you know, would talk over the material in the courses on a regular basis. IG: 57:57 At that point, there were really no rules about professors dating their students. Speaker 1 58:05 I think there probably were rules, but since he divorced and married her, I do not know that there was- IG: 58:09 Yeah. DM: 58:10 -I do not, I do not know. I do not know if that created problems. He had, he had real problems after I left. He ended up leaving without finishing a semester. And friends of ours found him in their suite, asleep on a on, a couch one-one night. So what happened with-with him? I do not know. I never got a full-full account. I think it probably was a case of a whole lot of success and pressure from too young an age, because I think he completed his PhD at London by age 24. IG: 58:53 You completed your PhD by age- DM: 58:55 26. JM: 58:56 -26. DM: 58:56 But the 20-24 is-is, you know, because he had, he had expect- JM: 58:59 He probably had a lot of pressure. DM: 59:00 Well, he had expectations because he published as an undergraduate. IG: 59:08 Right. DM: 59:09 No, so-so anyway, that that I do not know what-what happened to him after that, and I asked once, and somebody else did not know either. IG: 59:23 Were there any international students in your philosophy classes? Do you remember any students of color? DM: 59:32 Not there. IG: 59:33 International from anywhere? DM: 59:37 Yes. Well, yeah, there was from Africa. I never got to be a close friend of his. Our other friends did. Who knew him very well. He went back. He was part of political- and I am even blanking on his name. But you know, friends, yeah, you probably have because you. You have interviewed Jeff and Jan Strauss, and they were, they were close friends of his, but again, because I think he became a close friend of theirs at the time that we were off campus. And so I knew him, but very- I did not know him well as they did, and-and- Speaker 1 1:00:21 That was the difference, I think, between when we were there and our daughter went to Harpur, and graduated from Harpur, well, from Binghamton, and she went there for the diversity, and-and I think that it built up, you know, over the years- DM: 1:00:40 Yeah. JM: 1:00:40 -but I do not recall it being, I mean, to us, diversity was all these Jewish friends DM: 1:00:47 for her, for her. What was really interesting, though, is- JM: 1:00:50 I came from a rural area that there was one Jewish family, no blacks. It was very, you know, monoculture. DM: 1:00:57 Yeah, but my high school was interesting because even though we- I was, you know, in upstate, you know, North of Buffalo High School, and was huge, my graduating class was over 600. I went, I went to eight graduation parties as a senior, seven of them were in homes of Jewish friends. So and, you know, I was raised as a Catholic so-so going down to-to Harpur, where there was a very high percentage of Jewish students, to me, was not unusual at all, but for a lot of upstate rural New Yorkers, you know, the that-that was a difference, but-but well, and you know, and just you know, there is, there is, there are differences between upstate and downstate, but never-never, never, any that that we found troubling or bothersome, as I say, you know, these are, these are these are friends we have had ever since. And, yeah, and, and I do not ever remember any clashes of that, of that sort. Again, it was, it was the beginning of open-mindedness. IG: 1:02:19 How about your family? How they, how do they look upon you, the philosopher, their son, the philosopher? JM: 1:02:27 Well, my father never quite got it right. I had to constantly correct my father on it. My mother, my mother idolized PhDs, so the fact that I got one was-was something that was tremendously important to my, to my mother, so that you know that-that, I guess, was, was, of yes, as I said, of tremendous importance that my parents were in the as I went off to school, my parents were in the process of getting divorced, and that is another real good friend of ours, also from Harpur days, who lives in Larchmont. She is right across the tracks from Larchmont, but she and I formed a close bond because both of us had family tensions that we were really happy to be at Harpur because we were away from those family tensions. DM: 1:03:34 Well, that is part of the reason we got married so young, was David did not want to go home, and I did not want to be home. IG: 1:03:41 So you know, during your time at Harpur College, during your years, what changes did you see the campus go through, the physical campus? DM: 1:04:00 Yeah, well, they started the building. Let us see, they built the- JM: 1:04:03 The camps in the woods. DM: 1:04:06 The administration tower went up. They actually, they were just building the-the ones down the hill, when we first started, when-when we were first there, there was only one dining hall. It was Newing when they, when they started the second one; most students called it brand Newing. The-the dorm complex opened, I think, the second year, which was the one by Lake Lieberman and-and my story of Lake Lieberman is different from everybody else's story about Lake Lieberman, so I do not know what the real story is, but my story about Lake Lieberman got his name because a bunch of student government people over the summer wanted to name the lake they went randomly through a list of students. Finger landed on Elliot Lieberman. He was not attending that trimester, so they called him up and paid his bus fare to come in, up, dedicated the lake to him, and then threw him in. And Lake Lieberman was just that. I do not even know if it is filled in; it is just a pond anyway, that is, that is the story I heard of how Lake Lieberman got his name, named for Elliot Lieberman, and he was a special invitation. He was a student. He just was not attending that-that semester. But you know that by the time I was in the commencement, we had friends who were in, you know, in the-the new dorm, complexes that were being built when we first started there. You know, it had the shape of the brain, and there was nothing to the- let us see, that would have been the south of the top of the brain. That was just all woods. In fact, I used to hike through that. That was, it was I started that as a, as a habit when I was in high school. I just go out for long walks as a way of relieving tension. And I would just wander off over that hill and through-through the woods, sometimes even at night, just, you know what, if it were clear enough that you could see where you are going. So-so, that is all, champion. You know, what was all wilderness now is all, is all developed. And then, yeah, and then, then we, you know, we had the-the Esplanade, which was the site every year of the stepping on the coat ceremony, which you probably, if you have interviewed other people- IG: 1:06:46 Yes-yes. DM: 1:06:47 -which was- it would be, you know, there would be one, one person who was formally discarding the coat. And then they would, and it would, if it was either April 1 or the first week of April. But anyway, you take off the coat, and then they would recite one that [citing in old English], throw it down, and stamp on it. And that was the-the official start of spring, was-was the stepping on the coach ceremony? IG: 1:07:25 You went through enormous changes during your undergraduate career, personally and intellectually. And how did you- at the end of this period? How did you begin? Did you have any- how did your perception of where you came from, of yourself, change during this period? DM: 1:07:49 Oh, I do not know that. I do not know that I would say that there was, I do not, I do not think that I went through anything during that time that I would call a major change. I think it was just a sort of steady progression of who I was from the time I was in high school, right through my undergraduate, I formed friendships. I had formed strong friendships in high school. I still were getting together with a couple in a couple of weeks, he and I have been friends since seventh grade, and so, you know, I do not know that there was any major change, except, of course. JM: 1:08:45 No, I was thinking, you came in to join the Newman Club. DM: 1:08:50 That, okay, the major-major change was probably my religious beliefs. The first thing I did was join the Newman Club. I was up here in Syracuse the first week that I was on campus at Harpur, because I came up with somebody they wanted, they needed somebody to represent Harpur College's Newman Club at a at a statewide Newman Club mentioned, and I came up here for that. IG: 1:09:18 And the Newman Club was after Cardinal- DM: 1:09:21 No, yeah, that yeah, that is, yeah, that is the, that is the campus-campus Catholic youth student organization. And so I, that was the first thing I joined. By the end of the-the first semester, I told the head, the- then president- JM: 1:09:42 John Phillips. DM: 1:09:43 John Phillips that I was dropping out of Newman Club because I was no longer a Catholic, and he knew that I was going with Janet, and he told me that it would never last, which is why we are still like. Other, yeah, which is why we are still together. It is just despite John, [laughter] I was not let him be right, but, but that and I went from that, I mean, you know, we have talked personally, I went from that to-to having no religious faith at all. I- religious skeptic. Even though I taught philosophy of religion for 20-some years, I would never let them know where I sit. I wanted them one day to be sure that I was a firm theist, and be sure the next day I was an atheist, and the day after that, because I wanted them to think for themselves, and I wanted just to introduce them to the give them the tools by which they could do some serious critical thinking about it, but that my own serious critical thinking just led me to doubts. And doubts are not things that you choose. Doubts come just as you, as you entertain them, and-and once they-they become that way. I mean, if you doubt a person's integrity, you cannot choose. IG: 1:11:13 No-no. Well, how did these doubts arise, at you know, from-from this early period in your intellectual life? DM: 1:11:24 I think it had, I mean, I think that I chose philosophy simply because what little I knew about it was that it was asking, you know, asking questions. And so the doubts-doubts come, which is why so many strict fundamentalists do not want questions raised. JM: 1:11:49 And your grandparents, your grandparents growing up? DM: 1:11:53 Well, yeah, I grew up in a very interesting environment, because my-my grandparents were people who were Protestant and thought of all Catholics as papists, but my father had been raised as a Catholic, and so my mother converted and promised that the children would be raised as Catholics. And but when I was with my mother's parents, and that was really close to them, I was born when my father was in Tinian in the war, and so I was born into their home. And so she taught Sunday school, and I would be as a little toe head. I would be, I would go along with her to Sunday school. So I, you know, [crosstalk] I was exposed since then JM: 1:12:40 -in the sense of, you know, why would my grandparents go to hell? DM: 1:12:45 Not-not then, not, then I raised. My questions actually were raised when I first had lots of Jewish friends in high school, and-and it seemed to me absolutely absurd that they, you know, the- my good friend Bob and I, who were Catholics, were saved. Our friend Dave, who was Protestant, had a smidgen of a chance, because he might come, he might come around. And our good Jewish friend Dick was, you know, he did not have a snowball's chance in hell [laughter] of ever making it, and all of this just seemed ridiculous to me. IG: 1:13:23 Right. DM: 1:13:23 And so my question, my questioning came about, religion came from-from early on, and then when I went. but-but I was still, I was still a firm believer when I went [crosstalk] JM: 1:13:33 -into philosophy. DM: 1:13:34 Yes, yeah-yeah. Those are the, those are, yeah, those are the basic questions. And people still ask those questions. I mean, philosophy, what the earliest philosophers are asking those questions? Plato was the first one to develop a theory that there is an immortal soul. I mean, that is comes out of Greek philosophy. Does not come out of Judeo-Christian tradition. It is integrated into it much later. So-so those, yeah, those, those were what led me. So I think it was, it was just that experience, the continuation of the experience I had. I have been tremendously fortunate in the friendships that I have had throughout my life, people I would trust implicitly with, you know, with anything important to me, and to have had so many from high school through college to now, has just been-been wonderful. IG: 1:14:32 Did you keep in touch with any of your professors? DM: 1:14:38 No, as I say, once I came up here, Brown, shortly thereafter, was-was gone. I think Savage had taken a job somewhere else already, and Roma was the only one who was still there that I had a connection with, and I did not, I did not keep up a connection with-with-with him. So no, the other person actually was interesting. I was just thinking the other day. Another person who had an influence on me was Edmund Wilson [Edward Wilson], who was a black sculptor. Because I found I could take my fine arts requirement by taking a studio art course. And I had always loved to draw, but had never really pursued it, and I took just an introductory drawing course from Edmund Wilson, and Wilson taught me how to look at things and how to conceptualize. And I took, yeah, I took a second course from somebody else who was a shy man. I cannot even remember his name. He was shy. The second course was all art majors, and he would talk to them. And I just felt kind of lost, so I just did whatever projects were necessary to get through it. But Wilson, I- we just fiddle around with drawing for ages. And then when I was coaching, I had a student who wanted to know if she could find a figure drawing class, and asked me if at the college there was one, and I called over it was, and they said, well, one of our adjuncts runs a program over at the Westcott center. So I knew she would not, she did not have transportation to get over there. So I-I have been interested in getting back into drawing. And so I took her over there, and I have been doing that ever since. But it- you know, so the drawing has been, is now a part of my life, has been a part of my life. But Wilson-Wilson had a, had a real influence, because I thought he was going to teach me how to draw, and he did not. He just taught me how to look and how to conceptualize. And- IG: 1:17:14 Far more important. DM: 1:17:15 It was the key was, and it was something that stayed with me right until I finally had an opportunity to do something on a regular basis, and-and I have been doing that for what, 25 years, I have been going to open figure drawing and-and just enjoying that. So-so, yeah, Wilson was- he did a series of I went into his-his studio once or twice. Later, I guess I cannot remember what the occasion was, because I was not taking courses from him, but he did a series called minority man, you know, and as a black sculptor, they were all in wood, and they were very expressive. They were emotional. They-they were figures in emotional trauma, just done in-in, you know, in what I, you know, getting tree things, and then just carving them. But they were very powerful. And I saw one of his works in one art history thing that I saw after that, but- IG: 1:18:29 That must have been highly unusual to have a Black art teacher. DM: 1:18:38 Yes, yeah. JM: 1:18:40 Pretty much all one school. Third speaker 1:18:46 How diverse the faculty was at that time? DM: 1:18:48 I do not remember it being an overly diverse faculty, but Wilson-Wilson had a tremendous impact on me because-because he not only was an artist, but he knew how to teach art, you know, and that is, that is, you know, JM: 1:19:01 That is a gift that. DM: 1:19:03 Yeah, that is a gift as well, yeah, and-and he and your grade was on the basis of how he thought where you went, from where you started to where you finished. So there was a young man in there who could not draw to save his life. He would work hard at it, right? [laughs] But Wilson did not fail him because he worked hard at it, and he was encouraged to do that. The other thing about the difference, going back to how things were different back then, the art studio was open 24 hours a day. The only thing you did not have access to was painting stuff or clay materials, because those- you had to pay for. But all the drawing materials, which included, you know, chalks, pastels, uh, charcoal, you know, and drawing paper was there. And I remember one of the projects- IG: 1:20:07 And the doors were open, DM: 1:20:08 -and the doors were open. One of the projects was, I just was not getting it. And so I went over there at, I think, 10:30 at night, and sat down. It was a, it was a pen, and pen and ink still life that I was supposed to do, just a series of bottles, and I had done them, and I, you know, he would go by, and I would look up expectantly, and he would shake-shake his head, no. I mean, he would just say no, right? Actually, we never say no. He just, you know, and I knew that I was not getting it, but I could go over there at night and just work on this on my own. So I went over there, and the bottles are all there, right? And I am looking, I am drawing, no, that is not right. I am doing that, and it is just outlines, right? That is not, and all of a sudden, I drew an- oh, right. And I stopped looking at the bottles, because I drew them so many times, I knew all their shapes, and I drew five in a row that I knew he was going to say yes to. Because, again, it is a matter of looking right. JM: 1:21:10 Yeah. DM: 1:21:12 But-but that was the thing. It was those materials were just available at the- at dinner. The only time I have ever put on weight in my life was the first spring semester I was there because I ate two dinners every night. [laughter] My roommate and I had a had routines going. We played off each other at the table, and the group would we go over there early, and a group would sit down with us, and then they would all leave, and we would go back and get a second meal, and another group would join us and go through a second meal. But you could do that. We had lobster tails and steak once a month for birthday-birthday right. IG: 1:21:57 At the cafeteria? DM: 1:21:58 At the cafeteria, lobster tail and steak once a month for- we for special events, they would have a roast beef, where they would cut off, you know, you want it from the rare part, right? Unlimited- go back for milk, anything you wanted that first couple of years was unlimited. I had a friend going to Hamilton, who ate nowhere near as well as I did for all the money his parents were paying to send him to Hamilton. JM: 1:22:29 I remember, you know, a bunch of us from Whitney would go over, you know, and he and his roommate, also from Kenmore, at that time, would be doing these routines back and forth. And they were so funny, you know, and everybody was spraying their juice, laughing, things like that. And I remember that. I do not remember the food, except for Blintz. Oh, I could not understand why a Blintz was a dinner. DM: 1:22:55 Yes, they would, they would serve Blintzes as dinner JM: 1:22:57 And bagels and locks, no, that is just no food. DM: 1:23:04 But-but also, when they opened up brand Newing, they had the sandwich lady. And I was- no, I just, I might have gone there once, but the people who regularly went there, the sand- is sandwich lady would make up any kind of sandwich you wanted. And you have seen Dagwoods, well, people would walk out with sandwiches this high, yeah, okay, that, right? And then that, then, then some of that, right. Another slice, then some of that. [laughs] IG: 1:23:32 Did you take food into your dorm? DM: 1:23:35 I think they were eating those just at the cafeteria that was just said, Just be lunch time ago, and sat at a table, and because it would be tough to carry it, they did not bag it for you. It was not, was not a fast-food place. IG: 1:23:45 The cafeteria was opened certain hours, right? DM: 1:23:48 Yeah-yeah. The cafeteria was, yeah. Cafeterias just-just open for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. IG: 1:23:53 What was your relationship with the library? Did you spend a lot of time in the library, or was it open all hours? DM: 1:23:58 I do not remember if it was open all hours. I remember being in the, I remember more in graduate school, because I-I had to, you know, I had a carrel that I had used there, but I remember some very clever graffiti in the Harpur College Library men's room, [laughter] but yeah, the- I do not remember spending that much time in the library, because most of what I was doing was reading primary sources, and those were the books you bought each year. So, you know, if I was not reading commentaries on Leibniz, I was reading Leibniz; I was not reading commentaries on Plato. I was reading Plato. So-so again, was not that grad school level? IG: 1:24:59 Did not the library have these books, these primary materials? DM: 1:25:03 It did, as far as I can recall; I never remember anybody complaining that there was something that they could not get. But I did not have a call to-to use it that much. JM: 1:25:15 Did you bought them all, right? DM: 1:25:17 Yeah. And back then, books were, books were reasonable. I mean, you know the book-book industry- IG: 1:25:24 How do you how do you think that your classmates from Harpur would remember you? Speaker 1 1:25:29 The only ones who remember me are the ones who still know me. [laughs] IG: 1:25:35 How did they talk about you from this period? How do you think that they would remember you? DM: 1:25:40 Oh, I do not know. I think we all laugh and joke. We were just at this last get-together, New Year's, from an earlier get-together when Mark Weinstein was not able to make it, somebody had picked up a badge with his picture from back then on it. And I think the running joke was, well, at least he improved with age. But it was, I do not know. I think that we all pretty much had. I think we are the same people now that we were then. Even though Mark Wolraich has had a tremendously important career as a pediatrician, he has, he has written a number of books on dealing with children with special needs. He coordinates a program in right now, out of the University of Oklahoma, that works through the state to coordinate all the services in the state for students with special needs that he organized and put together, but we still rib him the same way we did across the campus, one family across the campus and but it is that it said we establish, yeah, we established an easy kind of relationship of people who are serious when we need to be serious and able to laugh. And I think we, you know, our individual personalities are just developments of what they-they were then. So it is not as so much of thinking how people would remember me, so much as thinking about how glad I am that all those so many of those good relationships I had, them are still a part of my life. Now. IG: 1:27:48 What lessons did you learn from this important period in your life? DM: 1:27:54 I do not know. I think, I think we have kind of- IG: 1:27:56 Covered a lot. DM: 1:27:57 Covered that, yeah-yeah, in general- IG: 1:27:59 But just- DM: 1:28:01 Yeah, no, I think that, as I have said, there was the-the beliefs and-and beliefs I have had about what is most important in life are things that simply developed through the associations there that I was fortunate enough to have good friends. You know, continuation of these, of these good friendships. And so I think that, I think that the- we were open-minded to a diverse world. I think that meeting other people who were like that has just established a sort of-of a way of life in which you are critical about things that you think are wrong, but you are open to-to a diverse world of people who-who managed to get to those same places in life by a lot of different routes. And I think that-that started a little bit in in high school, really expanded in college. JM: 1:29:35 I remember, you know, sitting around talking to people about some serious things. DM: 1:29:42 Yeah-yeah. JM: 1:29:42 And, you know, and I think that is came out of that era, um- DM: 1:29:50 Yeah-yeah, no-no topics, no topics seem to be out of bounds. And the discussions that we would have were-were very serious. Whether they are about religion or about politics or about social conditions, or- IG: 1:30:06 Were they ever about the social conditions of women, women's rights? DM: 1:30:10 I think those developed as we went. I think that every woman I still know who is someone I knew back then, I would describe as a feminist and-and I had, I had a student, Janet, and I shared a student, you know, went from my class in philosophy to her class in English, came in one day and said, "Dr Muir just yelled at us for not being feminist." And I had not really yelled at him for not being feminist. What I just simply asked him, "How many of you would-would be [inaudible]", this is in the (19)90s. "How many of you would-would say you were feminists?" And very few would raise their hands, and I say, Well, you OCC know. And then I would start to explain what feminism, you know, what the early feminism movement meant, and what people would try to say and-and talk about, you expect that you can go out for any sport in high school? Of course, you can back then you could not, right? There were not any right. And just try to let them, let them know. I said, yeah, what I said, somehow, people who are against feminism have made it a nasty word for young women. I do not understand that. I said, "How can it be a nasty word? Are you against equal pay for equal work? Are you against equal opportunity for in in every profession? Are you?" So-so that was yelling at them, asking, ask him, asking him a series of questions. "Dr. Muir was yelling." But anyway, she was one of the ones I got to, I think it was not, yeah, but yeah, it was something that built. It was built, I think, you know, it started to build in those years, and it just, you know, it just can continue to build from-from then on. JM: 1:31:59 In short of time, was, I was at Harpur when I decided, you know, to start going back to school and taking classes. I took music appreciation because at Harpur, I had been in a music appreciation class, and it introduced me to opera. I loved Aida, Leontyne Price, and all this music that, you know, I never was exposed to in my family. They were doing Lawrence Welk and stuff like that. But that was what I went back to. And the first literature classes I took was literature by and about women, you know, in the feminist mold, and-and I got to teach, and I think it was the last semester I taught her. Last year, I taught at OCC. I got to teach a course in literature by and about women. But those things, I came from a family of five girls, and my parents were out of the Depression era, and they both were interested in going to college, but could not, because they both had to work. And my mother graduated from high school at the age of 16, and, you know, was very much interested in going on to school, and my father wanted to be an architect, so they were determined that all of their daughters would go to college, so there was not a question in my family about trying to go to college. My older sister went to a business school and then dropped out. She was not terribly interested. I went to college and dropped out after a year, which was, I think, a big disappointment to them, but then my next sister, my next sister, my next sister, all three of them went to college, went into nursing, occupational therapy and-and all of that. So growing up in a family of girls, I did not really recognize the lack of opportunity, although when I think back now, there were not any sports for us. And I might have been interested in sports. I now play tennis. I have been playing tennis for 40 years and-and enjoying it, and but there were not those things. So, you know, the feminism, they- was a big thing for me, and I think it started in those years, but I did not capitalize on it until- I did not capitalize, [crosstalk] I went back to college in the (19)70s. IG: 1:34:30 And-and your husband supported you? JM: 1:34:32 Absolutely. And you know, through grad school, there were a lot of couples that Syracuse that broke up because the wives were working and the husbands were in grad school, and they just went different ways. But when David finished his degree, his PhD, that is when I was pregnant with our daughter, and I-I wanted to go back to school. And he said all. Take care of the baby. IG: 1:35:03 How progressive of you. JM: 1:35:05 Well, I still cook all our meals. After [crosstalk] Yeah-yeah-yeah. Because we were, we were married for seven years before he had a child, and then, and then, just as she decided she wanted to go back to-to school, all of a sudden, we found she was pregnant, and-and, but then, yeah, I said, I can I have a flexible- I can manage my schedule, and we can do this and-and-and we did, and made sure that she was able to go back to school. IG: 1:35:38 Well, what concluding remarks do you have? What message would you like to convey to future generations, or this generation listening to your interview? DM: 1:35:57 It is tough, because we came through a golden era that I do not know is going to be repeatable, because with what was happening in the (19)50s, the Cold War, and then Soviets launching Sputnik, and all of a Sudden, huge amounts of money being poured into education, and you combine that with the post war economy, where-where you just had the fastest growing middle class that I think there is ever been, and all of those things coming together for us at just that time, New York State converting their-their colleges into from State Teachers colleges into liberal arts colleges, forming university centers. I mean, Harpur was the first one, but Stony Brook had already begun by the time, you know what, by the second year, or sooner than that, Stony Brook was beginning, and then Albany, and then they purchased [inaudible]. So all of these things are happening at once. We are, and I do not see those factors coming together again. We had not to have taken advantage of that would have been a real shame. Everything was there for us. Everything was there for us. But I guess the message would be, look to try to recreate those opportunities wherever you can. It is you- you are not likely to have the same set of circumstances, but we do not want to restrict. We want to-to open up. And I see too many things that are tending toward restricting, again, limiting again. Too many people who are afraid of diversity, afraid of various other things. This was as great a period, I think, as you could live through, and whatever anybody can do to recreate those open conditions, I think that is what they should be trying to do. IG: 1:38:17 Thank you very much. Would you like to add your concluding remarks to this interview? JM: 1:38:27 We have had a really charmed life, and-and the fact that our daughter has picked up on a lot of the values that you know, we experience with our friends. We are very proud of her, and that when she wanted to go to college, she looked at Geneseo and she looked at Binghamton. She did not want to go too far, and luckily for us, she did not want to spend a lot of money. [laughter] But when she looked at Geneseo, she said: “It is a lot of the same people.” She went to Marcellus High School, which is very small and rural. She said, “It is a lot of the same people,” you know, a monoculture of middle-class white upstate. And she said, I want to go to Binghamton because of the diversity and-and it was hard for her to go into that big school from here, but she was in Hinman, she was in a suite with, you know, that gave her a smaller cohort of-of students to be with, and she made wonderful friendships, and she had a wonderful experience at Binghamton. So even though it is bigger, she still had a core experience there that was very positive for her. So you know, it is still a great place to go. Yeah, I would say, even though my experience was not a positive one there, I have seen that it was- DM: 1:40:12 There was one thing that I did not that I did not say that-that to me, characterized the- an attitude that is no longer there, because Binghamton went division one sports and-and my understanding was that the President wanted to do it, and the faculty was against it, and as I was against it, in fact, I talked to people who were calling on fundraising drives, and I saying, oh, the most thing I am most disappointed in it was going Division One, because division one and what happened? It was a scandal. Why? Because you cannot build a division one program. Why would you go to a demanding school like Harpur instead of Cornell, right, which is still right, still, it is Ivy League. It still has the name. Why go there right when neither one is going to be able to offer you scholarship, and Cornell has been added a law a lot longer, and they know how to they know how to work the system. And I did not think they could write, and what did they have? They had a scandal when we were there. It was Division three. I ran Division Three track until I got married [laughter] and-and it was fun, right. We, we played games on the on the small- it was a van we would go in, right? The coach would drive us in a van. Coach Lyons would drive us in a van, and the basketball team, right. JM: 1:41:41 Harass them. [inaudible] DM: 1:41:43 Yeah, that was, that was, that was that was the cheer we would go down there, "Harass them, harass them, make them really relinquish the ball." I mean, that was, you know, that was the kind of fun sort of thing that you did. And it was, but it was very different. And because it you-you did not go there for athletics. The athletics were there because they were part of a traditional education. And the people in the in the phys ed department were wonderful instructors. Were great down there when we when we started the- but it was an academic institution, thoroughly and division one schools are not, first of all, academic institutions. If you are a division one, of course, they are never going to go football, thank goodness. But I have a loyalty to SU [Syracuse University], big on Division One, everything, but I really liked Harpur as a Division Three school. I wish it could have stayed a division three school. I think. I wish they were still chanting, [Harass them, harangue them. Make them. Make them relinquish the ball] at basketball games. IG: 1:42:53 Because that would have kept the emphasis on academics. DM: 1:42:56 Yes, yeah, because then-then- JM: 1:42:58 And sports are for enjoyment. DM: 1:43:00 Sports, yeah, they are, they are, yeah, they are for enjoyment. And you do that, right? You run track because you want to run track. You go out, you know you are out for the basketball team because you want to play basketball. But-but that, to me, was-was what Harpur College was, and I wish it was, was now what Binghamton University is, but it is not. It is not. And that-that, to me, is a shame. I think that-that is something lost that will never be regained. And I think it is a real shame that, but it is a totally different campus. I mean, you got a school, and you got all these different schools that it was, but still-still, I would love to have seen them have the courage to be a university center and a division and do division three sports. That would have been great; it would have taken courage, but it would have put them on the map. And I think the best, best way. JM: 1:44:04 I do not know if they have sports for women down there. I really do not have a clue about that, but they did not when we were there. DM: 1:44:09 But they-they-they, they must not. Third speaker: 1:44:11 They have tennis. DM: 1:44:11 Do they have a women's basketball program? Third speaker 1:44:13 Yeah? They do. They have lacrosse- DM: 1:44:20 Yeah-yeah, all the same things, yeah, I will say yeah. But that is- JM: 1:44:28 Now. Third speaker 1:44:28 [crosstalk] tracks obviously. DM: 1:44:30 Yeah-yeah, but-but that-that-that to me, was something that I would have liked to have seen them keep, and it would have been a uniqueness that I think would have-have been a good. So, yep. IG: 1:44:47 Thank you so much. Thank you for a very interesting- DM: 1:44:50 Thank-thank you for having the interest in doing it. JM: 1:44:55 What-what is this going to be used for? (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David and Janet Muir Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Muir, David ; Muir, Janet ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David and Janet Muir.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 105:00 minutes