143 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a382eceb0faecbdaf7dd47a854a6cbcd.mp3 a9452bb99f43db86382c7aa66260cf8e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4838a87ced4f2edc0dcd60ca4fe94ba5.jpg 7a2d9234b6877671dc3a4db39bf1851f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John F. Spiegel Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: John Spiegel Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JS: 00:02 Very impressive. [laughter] IG: 00:03 So please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are. JS: 00:18 Okay. My name is John Spiegel. I was born on June 11, 1943. Um, some of my classmates knew me as Jack, which was a nickname I acquired in high school, and some of my high school graduate friends who also came to Harpur brought that so some people know me as Jack Spiegel, and where we are in terms of the interview? IG: 00:46 Yes, physical location. JS: 00:49 We are sitting in-in my living room at 98 Riverside Drive and in Manhattan, which is on 82nd Street, and it is about 1:45 in the afternoon on January 26. IG: 01:06 Okay, so just tell me what-what do you do for a living? What is your line of work? JS: 01:15 Okay, well, I am retired. IG: 01:18 Yes. JS: 01:19 I um, I worked, had a career spanning 49 years, retired in September 2015 and I worked as a student service professional for Nassau Community College on Long Island. JS: 01:39 In various capacities, both as direct counselor, advisor, supervisor of programs, coordinators of offices, and finally, my last incarnation there was as the Director of Academic Advisement in a place that did not have an advisement center, and needed one badly, and I initiated that project and made it come to life, which I am very proud of. IG: 01:39 Yeah. IG: 02:09 That is interesting, okay. So maybe tell us, let us go back to your- JS: 02:15 Sure. IG: 02:16 -beginnings and tell us where you grew up. JS: 02:19 I grew up in Inwood, Manhattan. So I am a New York City kid. Inwood is the northernmost community in the island of Manhattan, and that is where I grew up and went-went to high school, Stuyvesant. I commuted to Stuyvesant High School from there and-and that was my, you know, at the age of 18, went, went to Harpur, and never came back to Inwood, except for a few months, maybe to live with my parents when I was between- when I was on a leave of absence from work, traveling. IG: 02:55 So who were your parents? What did they do? Where did they come from? JS: 03:01 My parents were Viennese-Jewish refugees--came from initially, they were in England in- from 1938 to 1940 having barely escaped the Nazis in-in-in Austria, my father was actually a political prisoner in the Dachau concentration camp, and was through some political connections, through my aunt in Washington, which are too detailed to go into, you know, at this point where they were able to get him out of the camp, which was before the war, and that at that time, there was still possibilities people were put in there for political reasons, rather than-than just religious. So he would if that did not happen, I would not be sitting here talking today, and my mother was also, you know, Viennese, and she was able to get out, you know, in (19)38 and go to England for two years, and then they emigrated here to the States. IG: 04:08 And so what do they do in the United States when they came? JS: 04:13 Right. Well, so my father was a psychiatric social worker. He was trained as a lawyer in-in Austria, but could not practice here, and I think, decided not to pursue the law. I think the war, you know, had a big and prewar had a big influence on-on his career direction. My mother was a seamstress. She would do alterations for- in local tailor shops. And that was, that was her primary. I mean, she did not work full time, but that is how she made money. When she did when she did work. IG: 04:51 Um, were there, were there expectations for you to go on with your uh, higher education? JS: 05:01 Oh, absolutely. I mean, there was, there was a clear message. My father was, you know, had achieved Bachelor of Law Degree in Austria, and he was a very educated man. He would constantly let me know how much he knew [laughter] and how much I did not, and but it was clear there was no, there was no alternative that was what was going to happen, which was okay with me, except when I got angry at him, and could use the fact, you know, that I was angry at him, I would use it so I am not going to college. But no, there was no, there was no doubt that that was the track that I was on as to what, where that was going to lead. He never- the one thing I can say for him is that he never put pressure on me to go in a particular direction. You know, his- the message was, you know, you- it is important for you to be educated, which I totally bought into. So. IG: 06:10 And what were your reasons for going to Harpur? JS: 06:14 Okay, this- it was not my first choice. Um, I- you know- IG: 06:24 What was your first choice? JS: 06:25 My first choice was Oberlin College, and I was not accepted there. My second choice was Colby College in Maine. I was accepted there, but it was apparently not financially feasible. Binghamton was or Binghamton, you know, there was no Binghamton at the time, it was Harpur. I had researched it. I remember sitting in my local public library looking at the catalogs, and I said, this sounds pretty good. And I heard about it. And certainly the cost was very-very appealing. And I convinced my father to drive me up there. So we took a trip, and I liked what I saw. I liked what they had to say. And so this really became a viable alternative for me as a way of going, being able to go away to school, because I did not want to stay home. I needed to get out of there--very badly needed that get away from home. So this, it worked. And once-once I decided to go. My only issue at the time was, you know, when I would say to people, they would ask me, where you going to college? I would say, “Harpur.” They would say, “Harvard.” “No,” I say “No, Harpur, it is, it is an upstate in Binghamton. It is part of the State University.” So there was a lot of that, because it was really pretty much an unknown entity at that time. So there was, that was an interesting sort of things, like, I would come back and see my friends and neighborhood and we would have this conversation. But you know that, you know, I was so enthralled with what was happening there and in terms of what I was learning, you know, that any of that anxiety about the prestige or status of or you know, what exactly this place really was about, you know, all fell away. So this was 1961. IG: 08:22 Yeah. What was your reputation of Harpur at the time among your friends? JS: 08:29 And, well, those who knew about it, yeah, those who knew about it said it was, it was difficult to get into. And, you know, I do not remember exactly, you know what-what the average was, but it was pretty clear you needed to have, like, a highs in the 80s or 90 average in high school to get in. It was, I do not think there was an SAT entrance requirement. I think it was pretty much high school average. And you know, that enabled me to. So I knew, I knew it was selective, and certainly because-because the price was so incredibly reasonable that it really became a real alternative for a lot of people. And there were, there must have been 10 or 15 people who went from Stuyvesant to-to Binghamton, you know, to Harpur. IG: 09:22 Including Ron Bayer. JS: 09:23 Right. IG: 09:24 Do you remember what the tuition was? JS: 09:28 Yes, $162.50 per semester. Is that exact enough? IG: 09:33 Unbelievable. JS: 09:35 Yes. IG: 09:36 So what-what were your first impressions of as-as a city kid coming to a pretty rural environment. JS: 09:46 Yeah, that is interesting. I often, you know, I talk about the multicultural experience, and it is very-very specific for- to me, um in the sense that I felt like--okay, I am upstate, and I was, I was like, I was a smart lucky city kid, you know. I mean, I do not know if I did not really have an attitude, but I definitely, you know, there was something about, you know, I was sophisticated. I knew it all. And who are these other- who are these Hicks? You know that-that are, that are there. That is embarrassing to talk about, but it is true. That is, that is, that is how I felt. And the other part of it was I felt like I had entered another culture. I was not- they did not know what a bagel was. I would ask for a soda. They would say "What?"--they would call it pop; I believe. And I would say, and then there were a few of those things that were common parts of my language or my- you know, and that they did not know what I was talking about, and I did not know what they were talking about. IG: 11:05 So is it just cultural references or actual words that were different? JS: 11:10 A few words were different. I mean, there were things, you know, some like menu items at certain restaurants. I mean, speedies are very big. They are very big in Binghamton, these sort of lamb on a spit that you could go into a bar and get, you know, and they give you a piece of bread, and you would- IG: 11:30 A kebab. JS: 11:31 Yeah, but it was called a speedy, and there would be a so- that was different. But I think, you know, sort of the biggest shock was people spoke with a different language, different accent, and we called it the flat and-and I was like, so-so some of my friends, some-some of the guys on my floor and my freshman year, they would say, "Hi, Jan" and-and I would say, I would say "Hi," and it is a, wow, I do not understand. I am only 190 miles away from New York City, and the people talk different. So it was really, you know, so that was, that was, you know, the beginning of my multicultural experience. You know, there, there were, there were kids from farms. There were kids from upstate cities and towns, very smart, but I- my first reaction was, oh, they-they do not know anything. They are dummies. They talk funny. I mean, this is, you know, so part of my educational process was, over my years, there was to get to know a lot of these guys, these folks, and find out that, you know, that was all nonsense and-and there was some incredibly smart, you know, wonderful people, you know, who I looked at like- I mean, I did not spend, you know, as a kid, I did not spend a lot of time out outside of New York, New York City, other than traveling with my parents and, you know, to Canada, maybe, and New England. Anyway, I knew people in Maine spoke differently, because we spent a lot of time in Maine when I was a kid, but- IG: 13:17 During the summer? JS: 13:19 During the summer, yeah. So I do not know if that is the kind of thing you are, you are interested in, but that was sort of that with but I refer to that as-as you know, my multicultural experience in college, I mean, most of the students, I mean, I could maybe remember two or three African American students. There was one student from Africa while I was there. There, I do not remember- there may have been students from other countries aside from that, but I- not from, you know, do not come to mind. So anyway, that was, you know, I tell people about that sort of, you know, it felt very much when I thought about it, because you, when you when you hear people from Ohio or Western New York talk. That is they have the flat. I said, Oh yeah, I know that. That is, you know, so we would, we would laugh about that kind of thing and, but just in terms of, there was that clear, you know, upstate versus downstate sort of cultural thing going on, and it was, it was pretty good natured, I would say, for the most part. And you know, they would laugh at us, we would laugh at them. And, you know, and- IG: 14:30 So, how would they laugh at you? JS: 14:32 Well, I do not know, you know, it was very subtle, but, you know, it was, it was, it was, you know, it was not that it was like [crosstalk] that, well, no, it was more like, you know, some, you know, these guys are, you know, wise asses and no, know it all and, you know. But I mean, it was not that. It was definitely more our side, the downstate, Westchester, New York City, Long Island attitude towards, you know, it so, it was our own provincialism that was much more dramatic. I think you would not hear it as much expressed, at least in my- in our presence, you know. So, that was a dynamic. IG: 15:22 What was residential life like? How I mean after-after classes? How would you spend your time in the dormitories? And did you mix with these students from upstate New York? JS: 15:41 Not, you know, not socially, initially. I mean, there, let me put it this way, the in on the floor, in the dorm, we- there was, you know, there was a sense of belonging to the floor. There was an identity on the floor. One of the things that I think made it more dramatic was the fact that there was a shortage of dorm space, so people were tripled in rooms, and so there was, you know, there was a lot of congestion, but it also forced people to interact. You know, here is an example. One of the people I roomed with was a friend of mine from Stuyvesant, and there was a fellow from upstate in our room, and I liked him a lot more than as it turned out, living with my-my friend who I decided to live with, I- he drove me crazy, and I had and I had to get out of the room and for the next semester. So, you know, that was definitely something but, but we tended to do things, certain things, together as a floor, we would go to basketball games together. The team was especially good that year, and we were very excited. We go to the home game. Sometimes we went into road games, and so there was, there was interaction on the floor. We would visit in each other's rooms and laugh, and the RA would hold floor meetings, and there was a lot of kidding around. And so you know that it did happen in that context. But seemingly, when we went outside of the dorm in terms of who we would spend time with, it tended to be people that we, you know, came from the New York area, at least initially, in the first and when I joined one of the social clubs in my sophomore year. And we had primarily downstate people, but there were a few upstate people, and you know, so there was [crosstalk] IG: 17:48 So, tell us about the clubs, the social clubs. What were like- which do you- did you belong to? JS: 17:54 It was Caledonian Society, and I was very attracted to that group of young fellows, and couple of them, one of the things that appealed to me is that they had very couple of very creative people and very funny people, and it was just a lot of fun being with them. And it was really an enjoyable part of my experience there. You know, it is interesting the- you know, I never quite understood the strict guidelines that they had about there. You could not have a house, hazing practices were severely, you know, restricted. There was some hazing, but there was no physical hazing. Um, and uh- IG: 18:44 So what kind of when you talk about hazing? JS: 18:48 Well, you know, you they would send you on, you know, trips. They-they would grill you. Sometimes they would make you do, you know, errands, you know, I mean silly things. I think the toughest thing was just find the final night was they, a panel of them grill you and start to accuse you of doing all kinds of things. And, you know- IG: 19:20 Was it meant to be taken with a grain of salt? Was it meant to be humorous or...? JS: 19:26 Um, well, I, you know, what I think is they-they had already decided to take me in. So it was that, was that decision is made, but now they just wanted to make me think that they were going to reject me. So it was, it was a little manipulative, but that is as bad as it got. I unfortunately took it very seriously. I thought they would try to kick me out, and I kind of lost it, but so they, you know, they, but so I finally figured I was a little paranoid. So. IG: 20:00 As-as many city kids are, yeah. JS: 20:02 So anyway. IG: 20:03 So what- I am just curious, what kind of things did the social club engage in? JS: 20:09 Well, they- we had- we participated in intramurals. There was softball. That was flag football. We had; we-we did- had parties off campus parties. It was a social thing. And, you know, dances just with the club, but most of it was just spending time together. And you know the sense of identity you had if you went to a beer blast, which was some of what they called the big events, social events. IG: 20:48 Downtown? JS: 20:49 Downtown, off campus, you had a mug that was everybody in a social club had a mug with their name on it and the seal of the social club. And that was a thing about you went to, you know, with the beer mug, and you would spend time with them at the beer blast, and where you would spend time their rooms in the dorm and but it was primarily parties, and it was intramural athletics. I do not remember too much else. Sometimes we saw each other in New York when we came home, but that was rare. So. IG: 21:29 So-so what- let us see. So, what were- was your experience of academics like at Harpur? What do you remember of that? Do you have memories of faculty? JS: 21:42 Oh, absolutely. IG: 21:42 Who made a particularly strong impression on you? JS: 21:46 Yes, um, I took one of my favorite courses was what they called Soc Sci, which was Social Science 101, and the instructor was Philip Piaker, P, I, A, K, E, R. He was in the accounting department. Now, I thought this was very interesting. The accounting was part of the social science department at that time. It was a real eye opener for me. He was a wonderful instructor. It was a core course, and one of the things that I think that they did very well is all new students had to take this class. So everybody shared the experience, and just in English. So in everyone, everyone, and there was no remedial English, you know, everybody took English 101, and sometimes they have lectures in the auditorium, whatever it was called at that time. IG: 22:47 Where was the auditorium? JS: 22:48 It was on the old administration building, which, when you come up the center drive is like a loop. And was on the right, that was the administration building and admin classroom. It was called Classroom Administration Building because the administration was in there and there were classrooms and there was the lecture or the big lecture hall, which was 600 seats, which served as a theater concert hall, was a multi-purpose facility. And so everybody who was taking English 101, which pretty much the whole freshman class would-would pile in there and-and some one of the designated professors would speak, depending on who it was, it became a source of entertainment and maybe a chance to fool around a little bit, whether we were somewhat contemptuous of the way the person spoke or what they were saying. It was a little just slightly disrespectful, not in a very, you know, kind of overt or acting out way. But like with people that, you know, we would like make remarks to each other side by side. Um, one of the things is, you know, I think that somehow it is hard to describe, but the people who went to Harpur and the group that I spent time with, there was a certain sense, a banter, a sense of humor that we share. And when we get together, we-we still, you know, that very much resonates. And one of the things that you know, one of the- my overall impressions there was, there was not a lot of stimulation. It was, you know, Binghamton itself was not- IG: 24:49 You mean, outside of the classroom? JS: 24:50 Well, outside the classroom, yeah, I mean, you know, there was the snack bar, that was the big social area and there, and there was not a lot of- was not a lot to do. There was, there were, there were programs, but it was pretty stark. IG: 25:07 What kind of programs? JS: 25:09 Well, cultural events, cultural events. And I got involved in that. I was on this convocations committee, sponsoring some of that, with some of the leaders there, but it was a pretty- I call it somewhat of an austere existence, in a way. And I mean, I had a car starting my sophomore year, but there was not really too many, there were not too many places to go for just a change of scene. So it became, you would go to the class, you would go to the library, there would be the snack bar, and then you go back to your dorm. And so it was a sort of repetitiveness about it that was a little, I do not know, kind of psychologically, I think draining in a way. And I cannot think of the right word for it. It was interesting that many years after I graduated, I saw this article about the fact that the southern tier of New York has the most overcast days of any place in the country. And I said to myself, that is why I was so depressed for so often. [laughs] So, you know, there were times, but I think it was more that there was sometimes the existence was a little mundane, and compared to, you know, sort of my expectation of a kind of a rah, rah college life type of experience. Athletics-athletics were de-emphasized, And, you know, so that was, you know, in this so there were, you know, limits on certain social events, like, you know, the fraternities. Not that would have been great to have, you know, physical hazing, but you know the fact that there were limits. I mean, there was a clear message, you were, you were here to do you know you were here to be a student and that, and that is your job. You know which-which is fine. I am just saying that. You know, sometimes I think I was something- I was a little bit surprised. I was I felt academically overwhelmed when I came there. IG: 27:43 So what courses were you taking? JS: 27:45 Well, I started, I think I had a theater class my first semester, English, Social Science, trying to think what the others were. Oh, yeah. Oh, I had, I had, oh, this, this is interesting. I was thinking, originally, thinking of majoring in psychology. So I was, I said, well, psychology is in the science department. I do not understand. I had never heard of behavioral psychology. Well, that is what it was. It was behavioral psychology. And I said, well, when do you learn about people, as opposed to having a white rat to run through a skinner box, you know? So that was a little bit, you know, and I was a little bit disappointed in that, in that regard, and I ended up being a political science major, so I was a little bit unprepared for that. I was, I think I was, I was a little bit disappointed. But by the same token, I was very taken by the-the academic rigor and intellectual sort of standing that was and the quality of what was being taught, and the challenge involved in-in-in learning and learning new things. IG: 29:04 Any classes or professors that stand out? JS: 29:08 Well, you know, actually, I actually thought that the psychology was very interesting for what it was. It was not my, you know. And I liked the, I liked the professor who was funny, Professor Deane, I think, was the primary instructor for the psychology class. So you would have two lectures a week, I think, and then you have a three-hour lab with a white rat. And I was bitten by the rat once because I was carrying the box and my thumb was sticking through it. But, you know, I survived that, obviously. And so the- I mentioned Professor Piaker, the social science and Professor Deane for psychology, I do not maybe Professor Santangelo was my English 101, instructor. I think that is it, you know, I think that is who it was, and I do not and the theater class, oh, yeah, I do not remember his name. I think it was theater that I because I had to write a play. IG: 30:14 Really? JS: 30:16 Yeah. IG: 30:16 Did you enjoy that? JS: 30:18 Writing a play? No, [laughs] it was totally beyond me. Um the yeah-yeah, so, I mean, there was some, there was some great, there were some great teachers. You know, definitely great teachers. Okay, so let us see- IG: 30:36 Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education from Harpur? JS: 30:42 Absolutely. IG: 30:42 Yes. JS: 30:43 Absolutely. IG: 30:44 Yeah. JS: 30:46 I, you know, I once counted the number of term papers that I wrote while I was there, and it was 52 and I-I-I had a problem. I mean, I am a good writer. I am, you know, in terms of that respect, you know, writing papers and letters and putting words together, but I took a long time to do things, and I, you know, tended to, you know, drag it out and hand in things late, but I did learn how to do research. I learned, you know, what scholarship is I, you know, I spent a lot of time in the library and, you know, going through sources. And I feel like, I mean, I have a PhD, but I feel like the fundamentals of academic rigor and how I approached learning and research were-were definitely found- IG: 31:56 S IG: 31:56 Scholarly research? JS: 31:57 Yes, one of the things that one big message that always came through was the notion of the scientific method in in social science research, and the difference between facts and values and facts and value judgments, something that does not seem to matter much these days, but, you know, I always, you know, kept that in mind, and it was one of the clear things that I took away from the place. You know, I just want to mention that I used to say to myself, you know, I have been in class. It was- I would get back there for a semester, you know, it has been, I would say some one week into classes, but I am three weeks behind. I say to myself, how did that happen? In terms of the assignments? That is what it felt like. It was very-very demanding. It was several years later, after I graduated, I said, you know, they worked our asses off there. I said, what, you know? What was going on? What was going on? Well, I found out that the educational model was from the University of Chicago, and they decided they were going to export that model and-and bring it to Harpur. And, you know, they basically, I felt like we were going to throw a lot of work at these people. And let us you know, let us see what happens. Whoever makes it, makes it, and if you do not, you flunk out. And one of my criticisms that I do not think, at least from my perspective, I was not prepared to, in order, in order to be like an A student, I would have had to bury myself in the library. And some of my friends did, and they got and they but, you know, they were comfortable doing it. I was, I could. I had trouble dealing with the demand and the demand of the work there, and it was very- it was frustrating me, and I was a good student in high school to the get there, and suddenly, from being an A student to being a C plus B minus student, I was, like, shocked. I did not understand how did this happen. How did I get stupid? And so [crosstalk] IG: 34:34 -is such an excellent school. JS: 34:35 Yeah-yeah, of course. So that was, that was a bit of, that was a bit of a shock to me and but I was critical of, you know, at-at the of the amount of work. And, you know, in some ways I was, you know, I was, I think I was unprepared for the level of knowledge that I thought that they expected of us. I mean, like, for example, I remembered a philosophy course, I do not, I do not want to sound negative, I am telling you, you know, for me, it is a primarily a good experience, but there were negatives to it. You know, do not like to be critical, but the philosophy course was pretty abstract. The instructor was pretty well-known person. He threw using an extensive amount of Latin terms as part of his explanation, a priori, a posteriori, you know, ipso facto. And, my god, am I supposed to know what all of this is? And how do I, you know, how do I find out? How do I- okay, well, there was no internet yet. I was, fortunately, after, you know, a little while, I went to the bookstore, you know, if I said I got to figure something out, and I was able to get this book called The Dictionary of Foreign Terms, and it saved my life. But it was that, it was that kind of thing. I said, "Wow, I do not know what he is talking about," how and there is no primer here, what you know, it was, you know? So I think that there was, there were great teachers, but maybe not so much paying attention to what was happening with the students and their-their ability to- IG: 36:38 Comprehend? JS: 36:38 -yeah, to comprehend and absorb. You know, what was taking place. IG: 36:42 What just explained to us, what is the, what was the University of Chicago model that you followed? Is it a great books core, liberal arts core? JS: 36:51 It is probably liberal arts, but I think it was the core curriculum was a big part of it. And I, you know, I mean, I, my sense is, first of, you know, the caricature of University of Chicago is one of extreme academic rigor and not much else going on there. I mean, it is a beautiful campus, but that this, you know, the students do not have a lot of fun. [laughs] That is, that is, that is, you know. So it was like it was the amount of material. And so, you know, we are going to throw this at you, and you know, and you know, if you make it, that is good, and if you do not, you flunk out, you know, too bad. So you know that there so in terms of support for people who might have been having difficulty, there was a little, I do not think there was much concern about that. Anyway. IG: 37:41 This was a time when social mores were beginning to change. How did you and your friends respond to the pressures of your day, of the day? JS: 38:05 Well, you know, I was thinking about that because I had a feeling that question might come up. Uh, there used to, you know, we were right on the cusp of some of that change. The girls had curfew, to be back in the dorm by 10:30 at night. It seemed bizarre to me, you know, you would be sitting in the snack bar and they would be running out to go back to the dorm on Saturday nights. I think it was maybe one o'clock, I do not know. So that was, you know, and they had, they had a couple of very mature women who were- IG: 38:48 RAs? JS: 38:49 No, they were like the residence hall directors, but they were, they were like, they were not young, trained people. They were more like, you know, matrons. And there was a Mom Hardy and the Mom something they called the mom Hardy, you know, it was 1961 and one of them, you know, was, like, very stern, and, you know, sternly she was projecting, protecting their virginity of the student of the women there. And, you know, they- so we had a, you know, this kind of an attitude about them, you know, that is just, this is so silly, but, you know, so I think we came in with, like, I do not, I do not get this kind of level of- it just, it seemed archaic, okay, but in terms of our own experience, there were regulations about dress. So, you know, you were not allowed to wear shorts to go to the, to go to the resident, to go to the, you know, the dining room. IG: 40:01 And classes probably/ JS: 40:02 Well, not, you know, people did not talk about that, but, you know, a bunch of us would get together and say, "What is this nonsense?" In fact, I think there were. I think you-you also, I am not certain about this, but let us stick with the shorts, because that is a part of it. And so bunch of us started talking, said, "We do not like this. This is ridiculous. Why cannot we wear shorts?" So we had, like, a protest, and we decided we were going to we- and these women were in charge of monitoring, you know, the entrance to the dining hall. And one day, like a couple of 100 people just show up in shorts, and let us say, let us, let us see what they do, you know. And they ended, they just caved at that point, because it was like, you know. So, you know, it was like, it was like, the first time that I actually participated in some kind of social action, you know. And although with an unlimited scale. IG: 41:01 How did it feel? JS: 41:03 Oh, this was great. I mean, I, you know, there was a little bit of risk, I mean, to it, you know, but we did not know what was going to happen, if, you know, they made a stand and but it was kind of like the tide had had turned. And then, you know, when you think about, I mean, what are they going to make an issue? How big of an issue are they going to make about, you know, men wearing shorts, you know, so that, that you know, that was done at that point. Um- IG: 41:40 What other activism, if any, were you engaged in on campus? JS: 41:45 Well, one-one was a bit risky. There was, there were stories about the campus physician being having alcohol in his breath when he saw students, and at the time, I was on the student government I think maybe I was a sophomore. I had run for student government representative, and I was, I was either designated or volunteered, or both, to investigate this, and started talking to people, interviewing people, students, and there would, you know, there were, there were reports of multiple, you know, incidents of this. And I was called in. I guess word got out. I was called in by the Dean of Students and confronted about this and threatened. And I do not remember what he threatened me with, but I think he tried to scare me about, you know, that I was messing with was something that was quite dangerous, and somebody's reputation, yada-yada, you know, I do not remember the details of it, and I, you know, I backed off. I figured, you know, I-I am out here pretty much, you know, on my own in a kind of, you know, dangerous, you know, neighborhood. And, you know, I was a little bit concerned I want, because I wanted to be an RA, and I was a little bit concerned also about, what is this going to do to my reputation, if I am going to be perceived as a troublemaker? So I backed off. So that was an individual thing. The other thing that was going on so 1964 fast forward to the Berkeley Free Speech Movement. And so in terms of my own involvement, we had a sympathy demonstration on the quad. We held up signs supporting the members of the Free Speech Movement, and we stayed out there for an hour or something. I was sponsored by our own student government, so that was participating, you know, in that kind of thing, there was a lot of more serious activism on the campus that I was less familiar with, some of the there was an attempt to sign up students to do voter registration in the south. And in fact, they may have even been efforts to get people to participate in the Freedom Rides. And that was an area that I was just too anxious to, you know, felt like was extremely dangerous and would was not comfortable doing that. And there were some people who activists and doing things, and I think more locally, and Binghamton volunteer involvement and, and, you know, but I was not my, my primary act activity. He was in student government trying to make the student life better for the people- IG: 45:06 On a local- JS: 45:07 Yeah, on the campus, IG: 45:09 Do you remember JFK's assassination? JS: 45:11 Oh, my God, yes. I can see it in my mind coming out of class, and people are gathered around portable radios and listening, and, you know, President has been shot, and I was like, "Oh my God. “And, you know, within half an hour, you know, it was over from the time, what am I- overtime. And one of them, you know, life changing, devastating time I was, I remember that I remember getting the Sunday New York Times afterward, and reading it in-in my dorm room, and just being totally, you know, such a state of shock and grief about-about the whole thing, you know, because at the time, you know, he was, we very much identified with the youth and energy of this, of this guy, and, you know, refreshing note that he-he brought. And so that was a pretty, pretty horrible moment. And, you know, not being thrilled with who the new president was, and so without really knowing much about him, but just the way he contrasts with the way he presented himself. And I could not, could not relate to his way of-of communicating. IG: 46:41 What about the Vietnam War? Was there already fear of being drafted and or was that really- JS: 46:52 Um, okay. You know, the dates and when things occurred, you know, I know it was August of (19)64 that the Tonkin Gulf incident occurred. I do not know if you know my- I understood that that was a very dangerous situation, but it did not come home to me in terms of what this meant, or possibly could mean. There was a new professor in the Political Science Department who had the word was out. He was sort of more conservative, and maybe had been in the CIA or had some kind of background, and that do not remember his name, he was pretty new, you know, he was presented, you know, or so. The word was, it was that he was maybe more conservative than the rest of the faculty, and he made a projection at that point, he- I remember this specifically by such and such a date, a year from now, they are going to be 100,000 US troops. In two years, they are going to be 200,000 and he just sort of like, and I remember sitting there with a bunch, and this was part of his talk about, I think it was about Vietnam, but it may have been more the national defense posture. But I remember, you know, turning to other people say, you know, he is it really, "It cannot be true, right? It is not. He is just, there is just no way that that is going to happen, right?" And sure enough, it all happened. But I remember that was my first sort of like wake-up call, that this something could happen. And then, you know, I think in (19)65 people started to be drafted, and more and more people, and I, I was very nervous about keeping my student deferment. And so I went, you know, I mean, I decided at that point I am going to go to if I can go to graduate school. Let me go to graduate school, because I did not like what was, what was happening. IG: 49:13 So, where did you go to graduate school? JS: 49:16 I went to SUNY Albany for my master's in student services. IG: 49:20 Yeah JS: 49:20 And it was there for a year. And then, you know, when I finished in September of (19)66 I got the position immediately at Nassau. IG: 49:28 And when did you do your PhD? JS: 49:35 I got my- earned my PhD in 1986 from St John's University in counselor education. IG: 49:41 Oh, it is interesting. What other political events impacted you? JS: 49:51 While I was a student, or...? IG: 49:56 You were a student while you were a student, the Bay of Pigs, the failed invasion of Cuba, um- JS: 50:04 What was date of the Bay of Pigs? Was what (19)62? You know- IG: 50:13 Was there fear of Soviet Russia? JS: 50:18 Well, you know the, um- okay, we are maybe talking about the Cuban, Miss Cuban Missile Crisis. You know, that is interesting. Now, in that situation, we knew some bad things were going on, but we, you know now, if you can imagine this situation at that particular time, there was one television on the whole campus. I mean, one television in the student center, in a room that could seat maybe 40-50, people tops standing room would be 60, which is, by the way, as an aside, was the first time we had ever seen the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. It was packed like sardine cans, and it was hysterical. It was like, but you know, it, I felt like the Cuban Missile Crisis was a little bit more remote. I remember being very involved in my studies, and I did not really, I was not really familiar with, sort of the day to day, you know, significance of what was going on. And it was, there were, you know, there were, you know, you heard about things, you know, maybe you saw things, but it was not something that was being talked about, you know, as in the sense that, you know, we were all, you know, there could be a nuclear war, and we could all be gone. I mean, I mean, I mean, I, we grew up with that. It was just another-another one of those episodes this, I mean, more serious, but I was, it did not feel that different from some of the other, you know, the duck and cover drills and, you know, I mean, Kennedy, you know, ran for president on the idea of the missile gap, you know that, and the Russians and their-their missiles, and so I am glad I did not know, you know, my subsequent reading, and you know about it like it was- we were pretty close to a disaster. So anyway, so that so that was, I was not as affected by that, but I would say during my senior year when, you know, I think the Vietnam thing started to become a little bit more dicey. I was very anxious about what was going to happen. And, you know, because my because my own life, in terms of direction, was pretty unclear at that point, I did not have a clear career choice, and it was like, "Oh, my God," you know. IG: 53:15 Did you feel, did you feel support from your fellow students, because they were experiencing the same anxieties? JS: 53:28 You know, we did not talk about it much. I think I do not, I do not recall that it was, in some ways, it was not a reality. You know, we were focused on graduating, finishing, getting out of there and applying to graduate school. That was, you know, a lot of, what are you going to do next? And also, you know, the-the sense of, of, oh my god, this, you know, this experience, this pivotal experience in my life, is going to be over. So there was, there was also some loss that was there. And, you know, my all, I mean, these people who your friends and you, you know, you were very close to your they we re not going to be in your life as much as they were. And I mean, that kind of change was also very- it was, it was scary. It was, it was, it was upsetting. IG: 54:27 Did you stay in touch with any of your classmates? JS: 54:31 Absolutely. It is about half a dozen people from Harpur that I see on a regular basis, and we are very close, and- IG: 54:49 That is very nice. JS: 54:50 Yeah, oh no. It is, you know, it is something that we share and-and then some of them have networks with other friends of people. I know I do not see them that often, but I you know, I ask about them and what this- IG: 55:06 What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? Do you think? JS: 55:14 Well, I have a tremendous respect for knowledge and learning in the truth and um, I, the fact that I learned how to-to write and communicate both verbally and verbally and in writing, and I take a lot of pride in being able to do that. And there is one other thing, so just ask me the question again, IG: 55:57 So what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? What were the major [inaudible] JS: 56:00 Okay, so, well, I would say, among other things, if you, you know, you-you really, if you really want to know what is going on, you have to work very hard to find out. You-you know, truth is a hard thing to get at, and it takes a lot of work to find out what the truth is. You know, I am a history lover, so I spend a lot of time trying to do that, and so I enjoy that a lot. Um- IG: 56:50 Have you pursued your interest in history over the- JS: 56:53 Absolutely, yeah. IG: 56:54 Through reading? JS: 56:55 For reading, from reading. I am in a Lifelong Learning Program now, and you know, I have done some work on some history presentations for them. This [crosstalk] IG: 57:05 Lifelong Learning Program through- JS: 57:08 Actually, it is City College called Quest program, once for adult-adult- IG: 57:13 Wonderful. JS: 57:14 And the other thing I did not mention there, I did a lot of theater there at Harpur, and it was one of the things I really loved doing. And after, and I did some community theater after I left on Long Island. IG: 57:31 As an actor, not as a play writer? JS: 57:32 As an actor. Oh, yeah, not as a play writer. No, I am not a creative writing is not my thing, but-but I would say, and, but now this, this being at this Lifelong Learning thing, has allowed me to get back into it. Because they do, they do Theatrical presentations. They do, you know, we do readings and, you know, there is a show every year, and- IG: 57:55 Sounds wonderful. JS: 57:56 Yeah. So that is, you know, it has allowed me to re-experience some of the joy that was, some of some of the most joyful moments. Our senior, the senior show at in 1965 was Guys and Dolls and sometimes and people still call me by my- the member of the cast- IG: 58:19 You playing? JS: 58:20 Julie. [laughter] So they still say, you know, "There is Big Julie" I mean, it is funny, but that was, you know, that was a, I was a key moment. And I almost did not graduate because I was so busy, you know, with the show, that I-I would still remember that my political science teacher, I got a D in that it was the only D I ever got. He says, "This is a gift." And I said, "Thank you very much, because my parents are coming to graduation," you know. But so, you know, I know. I sometimes tell people that, in many respects, what I majored in college life, but that is sort of what I did. You know, with my in my career, I did, I did love the college experience. It was, it was, there was a lot of vitality in it. And that is what I-I gravitated to, and I ended up spending, you know, my whole life working with college students. And you know that part of the- you know, the educational experience and wanting to make it as dynamic and interesting and challenging as possible. Um- IG: 59:40 What words of advice would you like to leave for maybe students now and for future generations of students listening to these tapes? JS: 59:51 So we are talking about Binghamton students. Are we talking about students? IG: 59:55 Binghamton students? But it could be more general. Third speaker 59:58 Or whoever is going to listen this interview? JS: 1:00:03 Yes, okay, well, oh, my god, daunting. Let me think for a second. Well, I really, I believe in the notion of academic challenge and that it is, you know, even though I cannot say that, I did not practice this, but I- you know, looking for the easy way out is never the good idea is never a good idea. Take something. Take a class that you do not know that much about. Challenge yourself. You know, it is, it can change you. It can make you a better person. Do not just, do not just do things that you are comfortable with, because you are going to lose a lot. You are going to regret a lot, and that is what I mean I used to when I work with students. I would always- we, you know, one of the courses that was offered at Nassau Community College was a speech class, and we did not have a public speaking. We did not have a public speaking at Harpur. But I always say, this is, this is a very important skill. And, you know, it is, it will really help you in your life. And lot of people would be anxious about it, but I just wanted to plant the seed that this is a, this is a good idea. So I think another thing I would attach to that is, you know, the importance of me being able to communicate, both verbally and in writing, but also to-to push yourself into academic areas that you might not be that comfortable with. I mean, you do not want to take it on, to have it be so difficult that it is going to be overwhelming. Where you are, you are going to be so anxious that you cannot function. But how important it is to challenge yourself academically and intellectually. I guess [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:28 You have done that throughout your life? JS: 1:02:32 For the most part. [laughs] I mean, I have not say, you know, I mean, I have not taken, you know, foreign-foreign languages, where I have thought about it, but I guess I just have not been that motivated in that. But I think, you know, I-I-I try to, I try to learn new things if I can, you know, I mean, if I am interested in and just to-to expand my knowledge, and I just find it, it is, it is very interesting. It is very it I s a good way to live. IG: 1:03:09 Any concluding remarks. JS: 1:03:12 Well, I do not know. Concluding remarks, well, you know, I am a little bit out of touch with what it is like to be a student now at Binghamton. I have not been there in about 20 years. I know it is very different. I mean, when we, when I started my there were perhaps less than 1200 students. There was a very small school, everybody you know, kind of knew each other. So I am sure it is very different in character now. But you know, I think something that I feel very strongly about is even though I was, and this is interesting, I was not a shining academic student, you know, in terms of performing, you know, well in terms of what grades, but I learned a lot, and I learned how to learn, and it was, it was all worth it. It was, it was, I mean, it was a tremendously academically challenging place. And despite the fact that I had difficulties, so much has stayed with me in terms of my learning, some of the courses I took, some of the doors that were, you know, were open to me, particularly in-in history, which has become a passion of mine. And you know, it just had a tremendous amount of meaning to me, and I hope that other people will feel the same way, you know, as they move through their lives. IG: 1:05:09 Thank you very much. JS: 1:05:13 You are very welcome. IG: 1:05:17 Thank you. It is a good interview. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John (“Jack”) F. Spiegel Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Nassau Community College; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spiegel, John F. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource John Spiegel, PhD, retired in 2015 after a 49-year-career as a student service professional at Nassau Community College. His experience included work as counselor, supervisor, director of Academic Advisement and ultimately, building the college’s Student Services Center. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-26 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context John Spiegel.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-26 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:19 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/026a78dfd480db03ef5dfacf38cf11de.mp3 61b61e00dc776830e0c0d9cd3a84ba5a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/88bf9370d60be4733617198dfa9eb086.jpg a826d33b2138197db9fcd8ca4fd43b4b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald Bayer Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ronald Bayer Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 January 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay, so please tell us your name, your birth date and where we are, right. RB: 00:06 So, I am Ronald Bayer. My birth date is January 16, 1943 just celebrated my 75th and we are at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University in New York City on January 27, 2018. IG: 00:25 Where did you grow up? RB: 00:27 Where? I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, before it was cool. I grew up on 10th Street and Second Avenue. It was a lower middle-class, working-class neighborhood. My- one of my funniest memories of that period of growing up was that I thought when people got older, they no longer spoke English. They had a different language. They had a different language. As they got older so old, people spoke Yiddish, they spoke Italian, they spoke Greek. They did not speak English. They aged into that language. Because I never met an old person who spoke English. So, it was an immigrant neigh- you know, nation- neighborhood of immigrants, Ukrainians, Italians. My building was an apartment house. My dad, my mother, was a milliner who worked from the- she stayed home for a while after I was born. But does she work in virtually a hat making factory for making women's hats, and then eventually moved over to B. Altman's department store, where she did custom hats for people buying fancy gowns and stuff. And my dad was a civil servant. Neither of them finished high school. My mother was born in Europe and came here when she was six. My father's parents came from Russia, and my grandfather, who's an Orthodox Jew, lived with us. IG: 02:08 Where in Russia did, they come from? RB: 02:12 Oh, I am sure it was like Lithuania someplace over there. IG: 02:16 Russian Empire. RB: 02:17 Yeah, the Russian Empire. And, I mean, the most important thing about that memory for me is that, although my parents never went to high school, my mother had very high cultural aspirations, and she took me to the Metropolitan Opera when I was nine years old. And she, you know, I knew always that I was going to college. I did not even know college I did not even know college was, but I knew I was going to college. I went to Stuyvesant High School, which then was on 15th Street, is now down at the Old-World Trade Center area, where I met lots of other kids whose parents had, I mean, some had parents who went to college, but a lot of the friends were first gens. They think they call them now and-and so [phone rings] when I- this is my wife, hello, and I guess what leads into the focus of our conversation is my last years in high school, the-the demonstrations at Woolworths around the country were taking place, so the sit ins had already begun in the south. And I remember on Saturday mornings going to a Woolworth on Broadway and Eighth Street to picket. I actually I was supposed to be going to synagogue, and I snuck out and went to picket, and I ultimately had to confess, but I did not get much flack for it. So that is my growing up, and I-I knew I was going to wait to college, and my parents did not have lots of money, and some count- and I somehow, I knew I wanted, I did not want, to go to City College or Queens College, and we did not have money for tuition. And so, I guess a counselor of some kind that Stuyvesant said, "Well, this is relatively new school." It had not yet moved to the new campus was just the process of moving, and it is, you know, it will be a campus out of town. It will be very different from being in the city, but, and it turned out that it had become kind of a go to place for people who, like me, who had aspirations but did not want to stay in the city, and did not have the money to go to private university, I think I got a New York State Scholarship, which paid part of my tuition, and then I landed in what is it called. It is not what is the town where the campus is? It is not Binghamton. It is Vest- Vestal. I landed in Vestal in those years. Glenn Bartle was the president, and had a hugely strong, I remember the correct the first two-year curriculum was, you know, they had a kind of a required course called Literature and Composition, which had used reading from the Greeks all the way in the sec- through the second year James Joyce and whatever it was like, built, I think, on the model of the University of Chicago in places where there was a strong core curriculum. And I felt liberated being there, I kind of met people from all different- I mean, most of my friends, actually, in the beginning, were New Yorkers, and that is one of the things that happened about Harpur. At that point, a lot of New Yorkers, first generation college kids came there, and it was the teachers were great, and the classes were small and-and that is where my, you know, stronger political consciousness began to emerge. IG: 06:09 Tell us about that. RB: 06:10 Yeah, well, I actually have a memory, and you probably can go online to find the stories about this. I think it was my second year. There was at that point a committee of the Congress called the house un–American Activities Committee, which was investigating so called subversives. It had its heyday during the McCarthy era, but they really went after left wing people, and if anyone-anyone who believed in civil liberties and civil rights was appalled by how they operated. People before called before the committee. They invoked the Fifth Amendment. They were held in contemporary Congress. And somehow, I do not know how I learned about it, but we learned, I think, that a film about the house un–American Activities Committee called this is thing that I remember operation UAC. And it was a film basically designed to denounce the opponents of the house un–American Activities Committee. And we learned that it was being shown at the American Legion Hall in Binghamton. So, a bunch of us went and they showed it. And as soon as soon as we finish, I got up and challenged it. I had never done anything like that before. I started reeling off all the- kind of lies. And then a few of my other friends jumped up and did the same thing, and it created a tumultuous situation. We were basically told to get out. It made the front page of the Binghamton Third speaker: 07:43 Press & Sun-Bulletins. RB: 07:45 Yeah, right. It was on the front page. IG: 07:47 What year was this? Do you remember? RB: 07:49 It had to be either (19)61 or (196)2. Third speaker: 07:55 When were you in Binghamton, Harpur College? RB: 07:58 Oh, from (19)60 to (19)64. Yeah, I came in the fall of (19)60 so. And I was startled. I mean, I mean, one of the newspapers was more liberal than the others, but it really made it sound like we were wild and-and I actually got called into some dean's office asked why I had done it, and did I think my behavior was appropriate? And I learned afterwards that she said- RB: 08:29 I said it was important to do, you know, they are taking away our constitution. You know, it was linked to my concern about liberal leftish causes, because the only people the committee was going after were, you know, they went after people like Arthur Miller and, you know, writers and whatever. So, I kind of, you know, it, kind of, I got my- IG: 08:29 What did you say? IG: 08:59 Did you know about Arthur Miller? Did you know about these titans of- RB: 09:04 Yes, I did [crosstalk] I did because when I was growing up, my best childhood friend, a guy named Paul Solman, who sometimes you may see on the on the TV hour, on Channel 13. He does business reporting, but he came from very left-wing family. He was my neighbor, and his father was an artist, and he was actually the one to brought me to my first Woolworth demonstration, and he- Arthur Miller's daughter was in his class at the Choate School House [Choate Rosemary Hall], which was a progressive private school. IG: 09:45 Which daughter? RB: 09:47 A daughter of Arthur Miller. IG: 09:51 Because there is one who is married to Daniel Day Lewis. She may have- Yeah. IG: 09:58 SDS? RB: 09:58 I have never met the daughter, no but I spent a lot of time in Paul's apartment with his parents. They were Dodger fans, which is what left wing Jewish people were, and the mother smoked cigarettes and wore jeans. No one wore jeans in the 1950s and I got a lot of political education in their apartment, some of which I accepted, some of which I-I did not. I cannot remember when I cannot remember actually, whether I, whether I was in high school when this happened? Yes, no, this is later in college. I think there was a, let me see- I cannot remember, let me, let me just jump into something else. So, the other thing that was a kind of way in which people- there was already, when we got there in 1960 already a group called some socialist club. RB: 10:01 No SDS came later. This was a, this was a local group of- they were, they were like juniors and seniors when I got there, and it was called the Social of something club, and they were pretty far left, and they had a- an advisor, who is a very famous social democrat named Kurt Shell, who was a professor of economics at Harpur, and he did not always agree with them, but he provided them with- because he believed in freedom of speech and whatever so but all of us, the younger people who had just come up from New York, used to meet every Friday night in a dormitory lounge, I cannot remember what it was called Dingman hall or something, and sang folk songs. And this sang folk songs with guitars. I did not play guitar, but I knew a lot of the songs. And we sang union songs. We sang solidarity forever, Pete Seeger type songs, and so and that was almost a routine on Friday nights to get together and sing these songs. And we brought people in who had never heard of these things before, who came became part of our world. There are- I actually had a few names come up to mind. And whether you will ever find these people. I am not sure even whether sure even whether some of them are even alive anymore. There was a woman named Jane Lagutis who was in my class, who went to Hunter High School. A lot of people who were there were Stuyvesant or Bronx Science or Hunter so Jane Lagutis, who then became a professor someplace, think of English someplace in New York State. My roommate at one point was someone named Dick Sherman, whose father was a labor activist in the--it was called the local 1199 which at that point was mostly a pharmacy union. So, it was a kind of fantastic learning. And since I was going to be in political science, it all seemed to fit together. And there was one other big demonstration that I remember, and that is-- bunch of us on how we kind of found the bandwidth to do this. We-we rented a bus to go to Washington, DC for a demonstration. It was not an anti-war demonstration because the war was a done then it was a demonstration supporting an end to nuclear testing. And I remember, we went down on a bus overnight to Washington, and we got to- we stayed in a church someplace and slept. We brought sleeping bags or something. We slept on the church. And I remember, I cannot remember who it was. The person who greeted us at this church was, he was an African American minister who may have just been stopping by. I do not know. I keep thinking- it cannot be, but I somehow have this vague memory that it was maybe Martin Luther King, but I cannot remember if that is correct. So that was, you know, it was kind of exciting to be part of the beginnings, and the beginnings, really, that they did not- the big- there was no SDS branch at Harpur [inaudible] I am not sure when SDS began. I think it was a little later. It was at University of Michigan, I think. But we, you know, I kind of- it-it was what drove it was the Civil Rights Movement and what was happening in the south. And, you know, there were the-the kind of echo demonstrations that took place places like Woolworth and whatever. But I think some of my colleagues one summer, actually went to, I do not know, Maryland or Virginia. There was a guy who was very active. I was not really close friends with him, but he was actually more active than I-- his name was Martin Liebowitz. I cannot tell you kind of pulling up these names, I have not heard them in years. Again, I do not know whether any of these people are still around. You know, when there were, you know, Binghamton was hardly all left. I mean, there was, there were, I think there was a branch of the young Americans of freedom on campus. There were, I know, I cannot remember any [inaudible]. I know there must have been moments when there was strife between our people, and they used to be. There were never. There were not fraternities at that time at Binghamton. They were called social clubs, and the people in the social clubs tended to be much more conservative. They were like, you know, frat boys. And of course, we all smoke cigarettes in the dormitories and at our, at our, I guess, you know, these, we think, in the (19)60s, of folk songs called hoot nannies. And that was, you know, when people got together at Carnegie Hall or whatever, and there would be a lead singer like Pete Seeger, and but they were not, they were not just songs. They were kind of our political education, and there was a way of developing political commitment. And I never, I never felt the school, in any way tried to thwart us or suppress us. I mean, the event in Binghamton with the House on American Activities Committee, you know, it was bad publicity. I do not know if someone from the administration said we do not necessarily agree with how they behave, but we-we support their right to express themselves in-in tradition of American freedom, I do not think anyone ever said that, but I know why my face was splashed on the front page of the newspaper, and that was it. IG: 18:10 You spoke of these activities giving you your political education. Was this political- did this political education involve any awareness of restrictions on the rights of women, of gays, of people of color? RB: 18:36 Well, certainly people of color. I-I remember, you know, contemporary feminism begins in the late (19)60s. So, it is interesting looking back at the issue of, I do not think, and the-the first decision of the Supreme Court on birth control was 1963 I was already a junior that was Griswold versus Connecticut, where the Supreme Court ruled that women, couples-couples, had a right to have their doctor prescribe birth control devices. And in uh, so it is actually interesting that I do not think the women's issue ever came up in that way. I do remember something about men and women in those days, I was in a small class, and someone who became my kind of girlfriend for a while was in the same class, freshman class, and I was talking, and she said, "Do not you ever shut up?" [laughs] And in a way, I hear echoes of that now when women say, "You know, men were always the first one to take the stage, take to talk, and we have to fight our way onto the stage." Maybe it is not this quite the same, but so I remember this memory of this woman named Judy, and it was sort of, I guess what I was being blabbering, you know, you know I was, I was actually more like my mother than like my father always talking. So, and there was never an issue of gay stuff. I mean that too, all this, I mean this was the-the first major moment in in gay liberation began around the bar in the village. I think it was 1968 as well. And it was only in 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association decided that homosexuality was not a disease actually written about that. IG: 21:04 I know. RB: 21:06 So, I actually- so let me I actually think and so by the time I left, I really found- felt that I had my political wings, you know. And I felt so when I went to the University of Chicago for graduate school, and this is 1964 was the Goldwater election, I already felt that. And then we would get involved in demonstrations against the beginning of the war in Vietnam and draft and whatever I felt like I had already sort of been-this was not my first entry into politics. The other thing that isn't directly related to, you know, activism is that my education in terms of developing an interest in sort of socialist thought began in college. I, you know, I read my first marks. I read, you know, I just- it just seemed, you know, this is what, this is what you did. And I was a political scientist, and I took political theory classes, and I took, you know- IG: 22:31 This is at Binghamton? RB: 22:33 In Binghamton, mm-hmm. So, it all fit together, and that is why I went on to graduate school at the University of Chicago, but I remember feeling that I came to Chicago, which is a very powerful intellectual tradition. I came to Chicago from a place that was pretty unknown in those years, and I had classmates who were from Harvard and Yale and Princeton and, you know, Berkeley, I felt I came there intellectually and academically completely- I never felt, "Oh, I have a lot of catching up to do." And that was a great gift. I mean, you know, for a person who's the first person in his family to go to college, and who-who- Oh! And, I mean, I- how could I miss this? Of course, it was my, you know, my junior year when Kennedy was assassinated. And I remember that. I do not remember any politics around that. I uh- IG: 23:48 How-how so? RB: 23:49 Well, I mean, I-I remember the day I had- actually, there was a bank across from the campus at that point, on Vestal Parkway--was that, what it is called. And I was going to get some money out of the bank and-and nothing had happened yet. And the way back, I- someone was lowering the flag, and I could not understand what it was. And I went to the Student Union, and there, you know, and there is actually a picture of me in the yearbook of that year with a friend in the kind of cafeteria just staring at each other blankly listening to the news. And I remember those- the following days. I remember actually being it was around Thanksgiving time, and I remember being at a someone was- he was already living he had an apartment in town, and we were watching TV, and Oswald was being transferred from one prison to the other. Then Ruby came and shot him. And we watched this thing on TV, was an unbelievable thing to watch, you know, but I do not remember any- I do not actually remember. And I remember watching the funeral and stuff, but I do not remember, you know, what the political, what the political fallout was? I actually the other political, momentous political event that I remember in those years was the confrontation over Russian missiles in Cuba. And I remember really feeling that when I went to sleep that night, would we be would I wake up? It was very scary. I guess Russian ships were moving towards Cuba. America said, "If you cross this line," whatever, and then there was this backing off. And yes, we felt there was a lot of- I know among us, there was a lot of sympathy for Cuba and the Cuban Revolution. Cuban revolution is 1959 I think, or 1960 so I remember, I remember, you know, Cas- you know, those opposed to Castro, who are Cubans all seem to be like fascist reactionaries, I do not know. And the idea that the US government was going to try to overthrow the Cuban government, and they tried to with a- you know, with an invasion, that was a big moment of, I do not know what kind of demonstrations we had, but I know it was a big topic of anger and anxiety among us. IG: 26:50 Were there any Cuban students that you know of at Harpur? RB: 26:53 It was, it was very [crosstalk] It was very white. RB: 26:58 A few Asians. Actually, a woman who went to Hunter High School, actually also who was first generation was there. Her last name was, I think it was Dottie Chin. I do not remember. It is amazing what you can you know, so and I did not- after graduating, most of us sort of dispersed. I did not- I remained friends for a while with one of my roommates who I think lives in the Albany area now--his name was Robert Puzak. I what- one of my roommates died many years ago. He was- actually came from a Republican family. I had never met a Republican, to tell you, he came from a Republican family upstate. He had had polio as a child. He was a brilliant English major. It was funny though he when he took them to go to graduate school, when he took the GRE, he got like 99th percentile in English, and he got like fourth percentile in math, no one had ever seen such a low score. And I, he did fine. He went on to someplace special, you know. So that was it. And I kind of, I, I am sorry I lost touch with those people. But you know- IG: 26:58 Very white. IG: 28:42 How would your classmates remember you from that time? RB: 28:56 I think outspoken. I actually, I, you know, I-I-I-I think enough of-of oral history and the pitfalls of oral history not to kind of make things I feel I something about the-the wonderful wonders of oral history, but also some of the pitfalls of oral history, where people feel kind of impelled to make up a few stories that seem maybe they have not, maybe they did not. I do not want to do that because I think that- I mean, I think it is fair to say that I was a central figure in the, in the politics, I actually sort of interesting. It is a little different. But the- a year, my third year, I was a junior, a cousin of mine came to Harpur, and he was, he was not as political as I, but he- one spring day, who had been a long winter, he called together a bunch of people, and they had the first stepping on the coat celebration. His name was Larry Kressel. He unfortunately died some years ago of cancer, and there are pictures of him and people throwing that coat on the ground and jumping on them. So, it was a different kind that was, in a way, a celebration of life, you know- IG: 31:07 Celebration of spring. RB: 31:08 Yeah, yep. And I thought that was great. And he had, that was the class that had Andy Bergman in it, the filmmaker who might be worth trying to get. I do not know if he is Andy Bergman lives in New York. He was, he was the filmmaker who made Young Frankenstein. He made, oh, he was, at one point, like up, you know, among the- I would not say it, you know, sort of, he sort of seemed like the Woody Allen and his age or something. Third speaker: 31:39 Is it more independent movies? RB: 31:42 No, it was- he was, you know, he worked with Mel Brooks and-and, oh, Mel Brooks was in his movies. And if you look up his in Bergman, B, E, R, G, M, A, N, Andrew, and he might even remember me, because we were moved in the same sort of circles. IG: 32:07 What did the campus look like at the time? RB: 32:10 It was very small. There was where the library building was- it was the library and the faculty offices. It was only two stories high, across from it, sort of an L shaped brick building was the only where all the classes were, and there was the science building. IG: 32:45 Where was the science building in relation? RB: 32:47 it was between the academic building and the library. Everything was very spare. There were no- I think at some point we began to have the idea of planting new trees, because it seemed it was raw looking. I mean, all the buildings were new, and the dormitories were fine, and each dormitory there were four dormitories, then two women, two men. Dingman Hall, cannot remember the names of the other places, and they all had a big lounge. IG: 33:18 Is that where you spent most of your free time- RB: 33:22 No, the-the student, student union, where the cafeteria is- was, and there was a, oh yes, this is no longer there, I am sure. When you came down the central, what was then the central drive, there was a little bridge that separated the- that linked the Student Union and the dormitories, and it was supported by four pillars that were unusual because they-they were, they were normally these things supporting a little bridge. It was called the Esplanade, not there anymore. And so, the normally, you have a pillar that looks like this. You know, narrower top. No, yes, this is normally what you think of. And this had it came down like this. And it was just a design decision. It was not a very beautiful place. But I-I actually, you know, and I remember I had never seen fall leaves before. I mean, there are fall colors in New York, but not like I remember how incredible the hills were around the campus, you know, in the fall, it was just incredibly beautiful. So, you know, I mentioned that I had brought- I saw one of the groups I helped to found is called the International Relations club. Why we called that? I do not know. It was basically a way of talking about the political club. And we invited speakers to come. So, after many-many efforts, I-I contacted Eleanor Roosevelt, and I said, we would love you to come to talk and-and she said, you know, I guess I was in touch with her secretary, who said, Mrs. Roseville, speaking fee is, I do not know what she said, $3,000 $1,200 something like that. It was a long time ago, so that was a lot of money. And I said, unfortunately, we do not have any money we can pay for her airfare to-to Binghamton. And finally, I was persistent enough that she finally said, yes. IG: 35:59 How were you persistent? RB: 36:00 I kept writing, take no for a no, yeah. And I-I just said, you know, I described who we were, the nature of our students, the kind of students at the school. And she thought point, was writing a column, a daily column, for the New York Post from the New York Post was not a rag, and it was called my day. So, we got her, I do not know how we there was another person I remember bringing up who was. I cannot remember anything about her speech, no, but I remember her saying- IG: 36:40 What was her demeanor? RB: 36:42 Oh, she was talking about her years in the founding-founding of the UN that was it. Of course, we gave her corsage. And I actually remember that the person who ran the cafeteria made a special dinner for us, about 12 of us, and the main course was Chicken Kiev, which was, I do not even know chicken- I think it is, it is a breast of chicken wrapped around butter or something. So, the other person, we and I, actually, is it? I have a picture of it someplace. There was a very prominent left-wing journalist, not an apologist for the Soviet Union at all, but quite left, named I. F Stone, and he had a weekly newsletter. I. F. Stones Weekly, and we brought him to campus. So, we, I guess we tried to bring dissident- I mean, I do not know how many we did. I cannot remember, but we wanted to bring somewhat dissident voices to campus, and so those are the- RB: 37:08 Was the president there to meet Eleanor Roosevelt? RB: 37:59 I certainly know the dean was I at the airport, actually, and it was held the- her speech was held in the nicest, actually, I thought the nicest space on the old camp that campus those things was the auditorium. And there was a very beautiful auditorium, it seemed to me. It was wood peddled, sort of a little semicircular. It was in what was then the only academic building. It was out of using the gym, which, you know, sorry, big but ugly. So, I have stone whatever, and that is about it. I think I am trying to- no- so the years I was there was- they were the Kennedy years--right Kennedy and then Johnson becoming president in 1963 or (196)4. Oh, I do, yes. Oh, it did not happen there, but I that was also it was during that period that the-the big civil rights march on Washington took place, and we were actually shifting. Harpur had been on a semester system, and for reasons I never quite understood. They decided to go to a trimester system. So, in that transition year, which was actually the transition between my junior and senior years, there was a longer break, longer summer break, and I got a job, I do not know, some kind of stupid summer job in New York City-- just to make some money, and I remember taking a train down to the March on Washington, and I remember Martin Luther King's speech. I do not recall actually having met my Harpur colleagues while we were down there on the march. So, I do not think I was in touch with them about let us meet up or something. Well, there were no cell phones. The idea of meeting up in a crowd was a little different. So, I actually, I mean, I know this isn't about, you know, celebrating. I mean, I guess oral history sometimes we are about celebrating. But I-I think I was given the academic opportunity of a lifetime, and I sort of grew up. I, you know, started in college when I was, what, 16-17, I was 21 when I was just different. And- IG: 40:53 Do you remember any, any professors who made a particular impression on you? Were they- RB: 41:00 Yeah, well, they are all dead. No, yes. There was actually my Literature and Composition teacher- my first year was someone named. His last name was Huppe, H, U, P, P, E. RB: 41:04 And he was fantastic. He was a Chaucer scholar. I remember that. And I remember learning from him how to recite the first lines of [citing in Middle English]. And I mean, what is this Middle English stuff? So, he was my teacher. And to have a man like that with 15 or 18 students in a room just discussing literature was fantastic, and I had a- there was an economist whose name was Peter Vukasin, who was really a great teacher. It was another teacher I- it is odd that I cannot remember the names of my political science teachers, although that was my field, I remember one of the things, one of the things that was interesting about that period is in every- well, there are only four dormitories. There was an apartment for a faculty member, and the dormitory I lived in, the professor was named- he was an English professor. I never had him as a teacher. His name was Peter Mattheisen [Paul Mattheisen], and it was a thing that the door of the faculty member department was virtually always open in the evening. So, I remember spending a lot of time hanging out down there. I think I do not have anything more to say. So, who are most of the people you are trying to reach out to kind of post me, after me, or...? IG: 41:04 Yes. IG: 43:26 They are graduates from the 1960s. RB: 43:28 Okay. IG: 43:29 So, it is a big range. We started with 1967 because there was a reunion for that year last year. So, we tapped some of those people, and we have conducted about- Third speaker: 43:48 Six, seven, I think. IG: 43:48 -interviews. RB: 43:50 Was that [inaudible] who had organized that reunion from the (19)67? Do you know? IG: 43:57 Of (19)67? RB: 43:58 Yeah, the one you said, the first- IG: 43:59 Well, the Alumni Association, but the Alumni Association, but the library, also had a luncheon for these graduates. Just tell us a little bit about what you do? RB: 44:19 Now? IG: 44:19 Now, and just tell us about some of the high points of your career. RB: 44:27 So, after graduating from Harpur, I actually was lucky enough to get a Woodrow Wilson fellowship, and which supports graduate study, and I went to the University of Chicago for a PhD in political science. It was- those were heavy political days, but I and I was also a pretty devoted student, and um, I um, I-I became very interested in-I mean, I remember being at the University of Chicago and having professors like Hannah Arendt. You know when Hans Morgenthau and Leo Strauss, who's a founding figure of the very conservative intellectual, but I remember studying some Socratic dialog with him in a class where they went over every line and explicated it. And I-I got very involved in politics, actually. And I actually in one, one of the years, I guess, was 1967 there was a demonstration--it was before the Democratic Convention year. But I got was an anti- I guess it was an anti-war demonstration, yes, and in one of the main squares in Chicago, and they were trying to block us, and I was trying to move forward. Anyway, I got arrested, and I was clubbed by a cop, and I had my hand broken, and I was okay, but, you know, but it was not okay. Actually, I was in jail for about eight hours, and my-my school, my chair, the chair of my department, was very supportive, and they provided us with lawyers and but I kind of lost. Then I- my feet- I had committed myself to doing work on African politics, nations that were becoming liberated. And I- that was the moment was happening, Kwame Nkrumah in Ghana and Houphouet-Boigny in Ivory Coast or whatever. And I-I went to Africa. I was- I remember my advisor said, "Ron, if you are not going to do this dissertation, do not go. Do not do it for me. Do not go. Take a breath. Think about it. I said "No-no-no, I am going. I am going, I am going." And I went. And I really was completely- I did some research, but my heart was not in it. There were all these demonstrations back home against the war, and I wanted to do it. I actually organized demonstrations in Accra outside the American Embassy. Finally got invited to dinner by the ambassador, who basically told me to stop. So, my academic career took a kind of a bump, and I came back, and I spent two years trying to write the dissertation on trade unions in Ghana, and I just could not do it. And you know, those are the days of note cards. I had piles of note cards at my desk, and I would keep pushing them forward and pulling them forward at that point just because of [ talking to his colleague] IG: 47:43 1015 minutes more. RB: 48:03 Yeah, let us check I have- it is in. I make- what I may have to do is ask you to stay here, and then I will come- do you have an appointment right after this? IG: 48:10 Not right after, we have an appointment at 1:30 on, I think 88th on Riverside. RB: 48:16 Oh, you are going to be there. I live on 88th on Broadway. [laughs] IG: 48:18 Oh really. Next door neighbors. He is another professor, but I am not quite sure, but he is not affiliated with Columbia. RB: 48:28 Uh-huh. Well, the only one I know who lived here is a guy who taught English at [inaudible] I do not think he went Harpur. IG: 48:35 His name is John Spiegel. RB: 48:37 Oh, I know John Spiegel. IG: 48:38 Really? RB: 48:39 Yes, he was, he was a friend of Larry Kressels and whatever. Of course, you said that, [inaudible]. So, it is a meeting now, James [talking to his colleague]. Okay, so anyway, so anyway, I-I happened to get a job working one of the early methadone maintenance programs in New York. I knew enough my brother was sort of involved with drugs, and he knew a lot of people involved. So, I got involved working. I never wrote it about Africa. Okay, so I got a job working in the- this method on maintenance program, and suddenly I realized, oh, this is really interesting, drug use, psychiatry, law, criminal law, criminalization. And ultimately, the idea came to me about writing a dissertation about that. I studied, none of it in graduate school, and I wrote a very good dissertation. And when I finished, it was- I started graduate school 1964 was 1973 when I finished, but I have been working in this drug program for two years. I got an eventually, got a 1979 I got a post doc at a place called the Hastings Center, which was a bioethics research institute. I had never studied bioethics before, but I was interested in relation with law and psychiatry. That then I feel like Forrest Gump. That then led me to the- I got at this Hasting Center I- when I started working there, someone said, you know, you are really interested in law psychiatry, how values shape psychiatry. I have a great idea for a book, the decision of the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disease I did not know anything about it. He said, I know all the major players, and I will get you access to them as for interviews. And so, I did it. It was my first book about homosexuality in American psychiatry. And it was sort of, kind of became entailing the history of that moment. It was a landmark. It, you know, built on gay liberation, women's movement, whatever. And then I- while working at the Hastings Center, it was 1983-(19)82 someone came to us who was on the board of trustees and said, there was this new disease. She was a scientist working at Sloan Kettering. This new disease has many ethical issues. The research ethics are incredibly complicated. Her name was Mathilde Krim. Mathilde Krim just died. IG: 51:24 I know, I know, I know who that is. RB: 51:26 And I just, actually, just went to her memorial service. So, Mathilde Krim gave us our first grant to do ethical work on HIV. I then became completely involved in writing about ethical issues, and all my work focused on HIV. [side conversation with colleague regarding meeting time] All my work and I actually got to know Mathilde Krim quite well. I- it is like she was both a formidable activist, a brilliant scientist, and very-very rich. Her husband owned, United Artists, the film company, and then he owned another film company. They had a townhouse on 69th Street between Madison Park. It is like out of movies. He walked into this house, and there was a spiral staircase, and there was a butler who opened the door, and there was a movie theater on the ground floor that is had about 80 because [inaudible] was a business. So, because she supported my work a lot, and then she created a foundation called the American Foundation for AIDS Research that a lot of my work was funded. IG: 51:26 Were you attached to any university at that point? RB: 51:39 No, I was still working at the Hastings Center. This is the final piece of luck. I had been asked to give a talk at the board meeting of Planned Parenthood in Washington, DC in 1986 or (198)7, I cannot remember the year, it was the first talk anyone had presented on the issue of women and HIV. And I knew something about the issues because of issues around pregnancy and the transmission of virus from mother to child. At any rate, in the audience was sitting who was on the Board of Trustees of Planned Parenthood [inaudible] named Alan Rosenfield. Alan Rosenfield was the dean of this school. He came up to me after the talk and said, "Have you ever thought of coming to Columbia?" I said, "Actually, I am interested in the possibility of moving. I have been at the Hastings Center for nine or 10 years. Yes, I am interested." "Well, come see me in my office." In the meantime, uh- and so when I was trying to figure out what to do, I went to see Mathilde Krim, and she and Arthur had dinner for me in their palace, and said her husband was on the board of, he was on the Board of Trustees of Columbia. So, he said, I think you should go to Columbia. So, it did not, it was not just a show over. I mean, I, you know, I had written a lot, but, you know, this depart the department I am in said, what was academic credentials? He does not do traditional work and whatever, but they- I am basically, Rosenfield basically [crosstalk] IG: 54:35 Do- done your PhD by then? RB: 54:37 Oh, yes, I finished my PhD. And I was actually, I had finished my finished my PhD in (19)76 and I worked at the Hastings Center until (19)80 until- I was a person. Oh, I finished. I had a postdoc, which was a year, and I am coming to the end of the year. I had already my book is already in galleries, and the director, a guy named Dan Callahan, says, "What are you doing next year?" I said, "I am not quite sure." He said, "Would you like a staff position here?" So again, look, and I grabbed it, and that opened the whole world of bioethics to me, which led to the research on HIV, which led to, we did the no one had done work on the ethics of infectious disease until that point, because infectious disease was not an issue in the US. Bioethics was all about the clinical relationship. So, I, so then I came to Columbia in 1988 so it is now 30 years. Yeah, 30 years. And I came with the idea of teaching a course, oh, I came with a grant from the American Foundation for AIDS research, a five year, you know, these schools require a lot of grant money, a five-year fellowship to continue work on the ethics of AIDS. So, I came here, and I had to think about what courses I was going to teach. So, I decided I would teach a course on the ethics of on HIV, the age of epidemic. By that time, I had written a book about the AIDS epidemic, and then I developed one of the first courses in the United States on the ethics of public health, not the ethics, but not bioethics, not the ethics of the doctor patient relationship, but how you think about the ethical challenges raised in doing public health policy, whether it is about smoking or diet or-or motorcycle helmets or seat belts or or-or infectious disease or justice [crosstalk] IG: 56:46 So, what are the- you know, just give us a glimpse into what the ethics- RB: 56:52 Well, for example, yeah. I mean, for example- IG: 56:54 Smoking. RB: 56:55 Well, you know, people-people choose to smoke. They choose to smoke for many-many reasons, because they have been pushed into it by business. They have been seduced into it as children. They become addicted. On the other hand, stopping people from smoking because it hurts them is problematical if you believe that competent adults have a right to make all kinds of decisions, including to refuse therapy if even though that means they are going to die. So, the question about smoking was preeminently how far the state can go in-in pushing, nudging, shoving people to lead a healthier life. It is not an accident that most of the original aids efforts control efforts focused on innocent victims, non-smokers, who were in the presence of smokers and children where there is no ethical problem, you have no right to infect the air of smoker a non-smoker. But why do they focus on that when the real issue was 500,000 people dying every year smoking because it touched a raw nerve in America. We have come very far. We go pretty far now. We banned smoking on parks and beaches. We banned smoking in public housing projects. We this is so called a smoke free campus, and some of it, I think, is a stretch in terms of the harm to others part. So, tracing that arc, look, America is the only country that permits- does not regulate smoking advertising because of our First Amendment. From an ethical point of view, there should be no advertising, but our constitution is different, and it is not simply because business controls the story. I mean, the ACLU defends the right of tobacco companies to advertise. IG: 58:46 How interesting. RB: 58:46 And the other story that is paradigmatic is how you get to a position where you say that someone wearing a motorcycle not-not only is advised you, but must wear a motorcycle helmet or be fined. And the way the case was typically and we knew that people did not wear helmets smashed in their heads. They died more frequently. They had severe brain injuries. But when the move to mandate motorcycle helmets started, and there was a federal law that said, if you do not have motorcycle law, you do not get federal funding for Highway Safety. The argument was, if you get caught in an accident, if you are in an accident, then an ambulance has to pick you up, take you to a publicly funded emergency room, and where you may have to stay and then be hospitalized, where you may be have Medicaid, and then you may be crippled and have to be on public assistance. How can you say that it only affects you? So, it was a very stretch of harm to others in terms of economic burden. So those are the kinds of issues I love to teach about, and I have taught these courses for a long time. We revamped the curriculum here about eight years ago so that all incoming 400 students take a common curriculum. It is a [inaudible], and the first among the first six lectures they get, all 400 of them are the ethics of public health that I do. A colleague does the history of public health, someone does human rights and public health, and they do what they learn, Biostatistics and whatever. But I actually feel that one of my great contributions academically is that I sort of helped I am not the only one who does it now at all, but to spark the interest in the ethics of public health, not simply the ethics of clinical research. And that is my concerto. [laughs] IG: 1:00:42 Wonderful. Do you have any- I think that we are going to wrap up soon. RB: 1:00:49 Okay. IG: 1:00:52 So just in general, what do you think that there any lessons that you learned from your time at Harpur. RB: 1:01:01 Um, I- there were two things. I think I have no idea what the socioeconomic mixes of Harpur in this moment, and it was basically a white school when I went there, although, as I said, there were a few Asians, but there were lots of first-generation college students, not all, but enough. Kids who came from New York who would have gone to one of the city colleges, City College Queens, Brooklyn. I think creating a place that is- brings first generation college students as a mission, not just if they happen to apply, but as a mission. It is a great thing to do as a public university, and it is a great thing to do for what you- the kind of context you create. I know it is you know, may sound like, you know, old story now everyone wants, you know, campus that has diversity on it, and sometimes the diversity language seems to be a little kind of hot air stuff. I mean, the talk about diversity, but I actually think creating, making it a mission to draw people who are first generation people, and hopefully being able to bring dreamers in and to protect them. Columbia has been very good in its public statements about dreamers, and I think that so. The other thing is, and I do not know how much it remained, I think the people who created the curriculum at Harpur back then were very influenced by the idea that all incoming students should have some kind of core curriculum. We had. It was either one or two years of a social science sequence and wanted, and at least I know it was two years of literature and composition. It was mostly literature, and you had to do some writing, but it was literature. It was the most I mean; I am not a literature person. The fact that I read everything from Chaucer to Flaubert and James Joyce as part of a standard curriculum that was, it was viewed as, this is what everyone with an education need. I thought that was just spectacular. There is so much emphasis now on specialization, on skills, building Third speaker: 1:03:57 Standardized. RB: 1:03:58 Yeah, and I kind of yeah, so I actually, I understand all the pressures to do that. I see it here because, you know, our students in a school of tuition here at Columbia is about $60,000 a year when you get an MPH, you do not. It is not like getting an MD. And, you know- IG: 1:04:19 [inaudible] MD students get an MPH? RB: 1:04:20 Oh, absolutely, yes-yes-yes, that helps. But when our students get out, the income they can expect is very different from an MD and-and they and they want to make sure they have a job, something skills. So, I teach in a unit that teaches history and ethics in public health. We admit, in our department, we admit 150-130 students a year, [inaudible] of them choose to do this. There are many-many important things they can learn. But and I understand why, because they, when they go to an employer, they want to say, I know how to do this statistical method. I knew that statistical method. I know how to run a clinical- I know how to run a focus. Group and how to do things. So, I understand it, but it is for the same reason that many universities they have- they are getting rid of, you know, their universities get rid of their- I mean, I imagine you could count on hand the number of universities that teach Latin or Greek anymore, and there are even universities that have given up on Roman, you know, Italian, they may have Spanish and French and German and now Chinese, but there are many schools that just do not have comprehensive literature departments anymore. They are not supportable and-and you know from your time at-at Columbia that these places run on grants and gifts. You know, did you hear about this big gift they got from this guy, Vagelos [Dr. Roy Vagelos]? IG: 1:05:46 I heard about it. I also heard about the green gift to the neurosciences. RB: 1:05:54 Yes, right. IG: 1:05:55 [crosstalk] 200 million. RB: 1:05:56 Yeah. IG: 1:05:57 And actually, Dr. Fishback and I worked on the original proposal- RB: 1:06:02 Really? IG: 1:06:03 -Neuroscience Institute. RB: 1:06:04 Yeah, it is, you know, it is down on 100- but no, this guy, Vagelos, was the head of Merck. IG: 1:06:09 Yes. RB: 1:06:09 He gave $250 million to the school so that, no, this is interesting. He also built a building there, which is kind of a very modern building, two $50 million the income of which is to make sure that no student graduates medical school with debt. [crosstalk] IG: 1:06:13 That is tremendous. RB: 1:06:23 You know, he was the head of Merck, so he is very rich. And at any rate, I have felt, you know, as I said, I just celebrated my 75th birthday. You know, I am, I feel really privileged in many ways, but I, you know, I kind of being dogged and being ready to jump at opportunities, and sometimes just being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, IG: 1:07:07 Is that, is that one of the important life lessons? RB: 1:07:11 To me, it is. I cannot say that I would have been here had I, you know, for example, what would have happened had I trudged through and finished my dissertation on African Trade Unions, I would have been, I think, a kind of mediocre academic teaching political science- I could not do it, and I- it, it took a lot to decide I am not going to do that this. I am going to do another one. And I got a lot of you know, people around me were appalled that I was not writing my dissertation. My- I had a friend in the methadone clinic, a nurse, who said, you know, she was in a group therapy. She said, “You know, Ron, there is a guy in my group. He is 45 years old, and he still says he is writing his dissertation.” And people in the group do not know where to look when they hear him say it, because it is clearly not going to happen and he cannot face it. Do not let that happen to you. It is kind of scary when you hear that from people, because you know that you could just slip through the cracks. Third speaker: 1:08:15 I changed my topic. I know the feeling. So, I was doing something. I took all the prep work to do- to write that. When it was time to write it, I could not do it. I went through what you went through, and I wrote something totally different. RB: 1:08:32 Are you Russian, or? Third speaker: 1:08:33 I am Turkish. RB: 1:08:34 Turkish, uh, [speaking Turkish]. Actually, got some dirty words too. I had a Turkish girlfriend once at the University of Chicago. Third speaker: 1:08:47 Oh yeah. RB: 1:08:49 Her name is Ipek. Third speaker: 1:08:51 Yeah, means silk. RB: 1:08:55 Okay, I really have to [inaudible]. Yeah. IG: 1:08:57 Thank you so much. RB: 1:08:58 Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ronald Bayer Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in public health; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni in AIDS research; Harpur College – Alumni at Columbia University Medical Center; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bayer, Ronald ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Ronald Bayer, PhD, is professor and co-chair for the History & Ethics of Public Health at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University Medical Center. His research focuses on issues of social justice and ethical matters related to AIDS, tuberculosis, illicit drugs and tobacco. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and has been a consultant to the World Health Organization on ethical issues related to public health surveillance, HIV and tuberculosis. He worked closely with Dr. Mathilde Krim, the founder of amfAR. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ronald Bayer.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-01-26 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 70:44 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a20bfab336130e2d75a3d55096806bd2.mp3 cf30ae8b5895e45b5a0213d13473c3d6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8aefb28975d00d4430b87c7dd1f8a7d6.jpg 92a76cb3569cb5b59109f0ede92c6a46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-13 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellyn Uram Kaschak Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Ellyn Uram Kaschak Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 13 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Up to you. We can either try to get you on Skype, or we can just do this over the phone. EK: 00:09 Okay, either way, or we can go on FaceTime. You guys [inaudible] FaceTime IG: 00:16 Uh, FaceTime? No, I am here with my colleague, Aynur de Rouen, and so say hello. Third speaker 00:28 Hello. How are you? IG: 00:29 Who is the- yeah, she is the project manager for the oral history project. So should I give you a little bit of overview of what the oral history project is, or should we just plunge into the interview? EK: 00:46 Why do not you give me a short review? IG: 00:48 Okay, so the short review is that we-we are creating a virtual center for the study of the (19)60s. It will exist to promote scholarship on this important decade. And- EK: 01:10 Okay. IG: 01:10 -so we have collections of audio recordings, um, different collections. So one collection is a you is a set of 200 of interviews with 275 prominent leaders from the 1960s representing a range of political affiliations. So we have everyone from yippies to, you know, civil rights leaders like John Lewis and Shirley Chisholm, and there are people who were anti-war activists, as well as Vietnam vets who, you know, willingly went to this war. So that is one collection. The other collection is the collect, you know, the project that you are participating in, and that is a set of oral history interviews with alumni of Harpur College from the 1960s and it is to give. So it is to give a look back on what your experience at Harpur was like and how you perceived the events around you so the larger perspective. So these are, you know, these are tapes right now for oral history that will be transcribed, digitized and placed, excerpted, placed online. We have to ask you for your permission to- Third speaker 02:42 -consent form, and I can email to you. You can either sign it and email back to me, or, if you prefer, I can send it via mail with a paid envelope. So it would be maybe easier for you. Do you want me to do that way? To do that. EK: 03:20 Email is easiest for me. Third speaker 03:22 Email is easy. Okay, I will I will email to you, then EK: 03:27 You will never find me if you should not stand there. Third speaker 03:29 Okay, all right, I will send you an email after the interview this afternoon. IG: 03:35 Okay. EK: 03:36 Okay, good. IG: 03:37 Okay, so are we ready to start? EK: 03:41 Yes, okay, I do not know what is wrong with it. IG: 03:46 It is okay. That is okay. EK: 03:48 So keep going this way. I guess. IG: 03:49 Let us, let us go this way. Okay, so Ellyn, tell- first of all, you need to identify yourself and tell us who you are, where you are and what you are doing by participating in this interview. EK: 04:10 Okay, so this is the actual interview. IG: 04:13 Yes, yes. EK: 04:16 Okay, I am Ellyn Kaschak, and I was a student at Harpur from 1961 to 1965 so I hope it does not mess up the tape too much. So I just sent John, and he said he'd welcome over to somebody a bunch of photographs from the 1960s of the dorms and articles, you know, invitations to dances and things like that that is going on. IG: 04:50 Okay. Do you know who you sent this to? EK: 04:54 I sent it to John. IG: 04:55 I see, I see. EK: 04:56 John um- IG: 04:59 Cook-Cook. EK: 05:00 John Cook. IG: 05:01 Yes. EK: 05:03 And he said he walked him over to the library so somebody has them. IG: 05:07 Okay, I will get them from him. EK: 05:09 And there is a whole bunch of, there is a whole bunch of little odd names from dancers. And I do not know if they still have it, but they used to have the vacation, stepping on the coat ceremony in the spring. IG: 05:22 Oh, that is wonderful. Okay, so you please tell us you want, what is your age? Where are you speaking? Where are you physically located right now? And tell us that you are, you know, participating in this oral history interview. EK: 05:42 I am seventy-four years old. I have been a professor at San Jose State for many years. [coughs] IG: 05:55 We will, we will, but we did not catch what you said last you are 74 years old, and EK: 06:05 I, when I graduated from Harpur, [inaudible] is George Washington University, I see where I got a master's degree in clinical psychology- IG: 06:13 I see. EK: 06:13 -from there, they were not hired at Union, and I could not get a job, and they were not taking union into the PhD programs, even though I was a top of my class. And so I was told that I could not get a PhD because it was a waste of money. And you know, when I would just stay home and have babies? So I worked in DC for a couple of years as a school psychologist, and then times started changing, and I went back to school at Ohio State, got a doctorate, and came out to California to do my internship at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Palo Alto, and then I got a job at San Jose State as a clinical psychologist at a community psychologist. And I stayed there for my whole career, until I retired. IG: 07:02 Okay, so where was that at what state at California state? EK: 07:07 San Jose. San Jose. Oh, San Jose State University. IG: 07:12 State University. I know where that is. EK: 07:15 Yeah. That is right in the middle of Silicon Valley stuff. IG: 07:20 Yes-yes-yes. EK: 07:21 It was [inaudible] and I went there. IG: 07:24 Yeah, I could imagine. So just let us backtrack now to your early life and tell us where you grew up. Where are you from? EK: 07:39 I am from Brooklyn. IG: 07:41 Oh, well, where- EK: 07:44 I spent a few years in Valley Stream before I left, but mostly Brooklyn. IG: 07:47 Where in Brooklyn, if you do not mind my asking. EK: 07:53 Coney Island. IG: 07:54 Oh, I know where that is. So, who were your parents? What did they do? EK: 08:04 My parents were first generation Americans, and they were Celia and Bernard Uram, and they just kicked around and did a lot of things and fun. [coughs] Oh, I apologize. Finally, my father, after I was out of the house, when I was in my 20s, opened a successful business. So- IG: 08:35 Excuse me, a what business? EK: 08:37 A successful business. It was called [inaudible] stores, and it sold [inaudible], it was a discount store. IG: 08:43 Okay. And you said that your parents were first generation from where? EK: 08:50 Well, my grandparents came from Eastern Europe, and they came in 1900s to get away from the [inaudible], so way before Hitler and from Russia and the Austro-Hungarian empire. IG: 09:05 Okay, all right, did your parents go to college? EK: 09:11 No, they just barely finished high school. They had no interest in my going to college, or anybody going to college. They did not even know what it was, and I was the one that consisted on an education. So that was the early days of the scholarships before the government shriveled them. So after the New York State using scholarship and I needed to go someplace inexpensive, of good quality inside New York. So that became Harpur. IG: 09:46 Um, so, how did you persuade your parents to let you go to college? EK: 09:52 Well, I did not. I just went. [inaudible] on me. IG: 09:56 Okay, so, um, uh, you know, so- EK: 10:02 I had the scholarship. I paid for everything myself, and I practiced increasingly, I went to college. IG: 10:09 Well that is, that is very bold, very courageous of you. EK: 10:13 I am bold. IG: 10:14 Bold, courageous. So, um, so EK: 10:20 Like- what I wanted. I did not want to like it. You know, sitting in Brooklyn, owning somebody's children. IG: 10:27 I see. So did you have siblings? Do you have siblings? EK: 10:32 Yes, I did. I have two younger siblings. My sister is three years younger. She eventually went to Stony Brook, and my brother is a high school graduate. IG: 10:42 I see, so did he go into the family business? EK: 10:49 He did not. He had, psychological problems. So he has not worked. IG: 10:55 I see, I understand. So you decided to go to Harpur because of its affordability and because of its reputation? What was the reputation of the college back then? EK: 11:09 The reputation of Harpur was that it was the [inaudible] public schools. It had a great reputation, and it was really just starting up. I do not know how it got a good reputation so fast. So they have just been Triple Cities College a few years before. IG: 11:28 So did you learn about this from your friends, from your academic advisor? Do you remember? EK: 11:37 I do not remember. I needed a lot of research myself, but also had a pretty good values counselor, so you probably helped me. IG: 11:44 Okay and you financed your own education. What did you work during your college education or during the summers? When did you make money? EK: 11:59 I always worked during the summers, and once in a while, I worked during the semesters in the cafeteria, you know, cleaning up the trays in the cafeteria. IG: 12:10 Okay. EK: 12:12 I mean, the campus. I was just here; the campus looks very different. There was one cafeteria, and everybody had to eat on campus. IG: 12:21 What were your first impressions a city girl from Brooklyn, from Coney Island, coming to really the boondocks. So what did you think? EK: 12:39 In the first place, my father was one of those guys that would not use a map, so he drove to Albany and went to the left turn to get to Binghamton. So it took us two days. We pulled up, and it was nothing but mud. There were two, three buildings and mud. "Are you horrified?" I said, "Take me home. I do not be here." And they had not finished the dorms. There were only two dorms, two girls dorms and two guys dorms, and they had not finished them. So they had us tripled up in the dorms for the first semester. So it was, I guess it was after the [inaudible] in a lot of ways. IG: 13:22 So how-how long did it take you to acclimate to these new surroundings, and what helped you? EK: 13:34 Well, it took me a few weeks. I was really depressed in the beginning, and then I started to meet people. I had a boyfriend. I met friends who were also from New York. There was an extreme divide. I do not know if this still is, between the upstate and the downstate students. IG: 13:52 There was a big difference? EK: 13:55 A huge difference. So the downstate students were my friends. They were familiar to me. They were also from Brooklyn or Long Island or the smartest kids in their class and so on. The upstate students were also very [inaudible] were the smartest students I have ever met at any school that I have gone to, and they were smarter than a lot of the faculty where I taught. So I like that. The upstate students were just industrious. They just studied all the time. So the first two roommates that I had, were set the alarm o'clock for six o'clock in the morning, go to the cafeteria, have breakfast and begin studying before their classes. The first time I have ever seen people study like that. IG: 14:43 What were some cultural differences, if any, between the upstate and downstate students? Could you remember any anecdotes? EK: 14:54 Um, the upstate students went to church on Sunday morning, early [inaudible], and they would, they got in couples or in friendship groups, and only used to study in the state union of the library and then study from morning to night. IG: 15:19 And but you, you must have studied as well. I mean, what was your experience of academics at Harpur? How did you- did not you find it rigorous, or did- EK: 15:35 Much more rigorous than anything I had done before. And so I did study, and I wanted to be a psychologist, but the Psychology Department only did rat psychology. The 1960s was the height of Skinnerian psychology, so that meant you studied rats and boxes and not people. So I will tell you an anecdote. We do not have to live for three hours every week, and they eat a little like closet with your rat. Your rat had a fresh bar to get food. I do not know if you are familiar with those kinds of studies. That is Skinnerian psychology, and I became so bored because my rat was asleep. It turns out that rats are not trainer animals, so they sleep all day. So nobody saw the rat in setting up the labs. So I took a pencil and I poked my rat to get it to wake up and do the study psychopaths, of course, and rats [inaudible] with me. And so I went to the whatever it was in the nurse's station at the Student Union. I got a tetanus shot, and I dropped psychology, and I majored in foreign languages. IG: 16:53 What, um. That is very interesting. It echoes some of the experiences of other alumni who studied psychology. They also complained about rat psychology. EK: 17:08 There was no people psychology at all. You could forget about it if you went to that and I wound up majoring in Russian language and literature, which I think was a good start for being a psychologist. Anyway, Dostoevsky, Chekov all of them. IG: 17:24 Yes-yes. That is what I studied as well. EK: 17:28 Did you? IG: 17:29 Yes. EK: 17:29 So as a result, I mean, Russia is coming back before the Russian maybe it will be useful. IG: 17:36 Perhaps. EK: 17:37 An interesting topic to study. IG: 17:40 It is an interesting without question. It is an interesting topic to study. It is an interest. It is a rich literature to study. So you nonetheless, so um, so you were disappointed with sort of the direction of psychology courses. How did you find the Russian literature courses who were some of your professors? EK: 18:08 You know, they had the early professors there that we still had moved over from the community college, so I had, we used to call them by their last names [inaudible] they did not have doctorates, but they were both from Russia, and from [inaudible] IG: 18:37 I see, I see. So you know, how was that? IG: 18:43 It was the Russian department. IG: 18:45 That was the Russian department. How did you find your experience? EK: 18:50 I love languages, so I found it very interesting. IG: 18:53 Did they teach- EK: 18:55 And Russian was much more difficult in psychology, because we had to read War and Peace and all that in the original. IG: 19:02 Really, you read- EK: 19:04 I am probably the only person you know that read War and Peace in the original, but I still have the book. It was a tremendous effort. IG: 19:16 That is, I could imagine, that is extremely impressive. That is an education in itself. EK: 19:21 It was. And then when I finally went back to psychology at Northern Washington University in the people psychology, you still had to take your, you still had to take nine years exams to get an advanced degree. And I took my English, and was a beast. IG: 19:40 I could imagine after reading War and Peace in its entirety, you probably did better. You probably knew more than a lot of the faculty, the Russian faculty there. EK: 19:54 Probably I do not recommend it. I mean, it is really origins, but I need to learn a lot. I was very happy with the major, because I got to know languages, and then I did psychology later on, and it really showed me instead, because of the rigorousness of Harpur, is what really changed me. I was from one of those school [inaudible] in high school. It really changed me into taking education really seriously and studying and being prepared and so on. IG: 20:25 So um, you um, studied Russian very intensively. You worked in the cafeteria and in the summers to pay your way through college. But you- did you participate in residential life? What was that like for you? EK: 20:49 Residential life was not much. We had, you know, that was we had a paid-telephone in the hall, and that was the only telephone so everybody's boyfriends would go in in the evening, we had a curfew. I believe it was 10:30. There was a curfew for the girls, not for the guys. So everybody would say good night at 10:30 and then the phone would start ringing. But there was only one phone, and so residential life, as I remember it now, revolve around a lot, around the [inaudible], and what fraternity did he belong to, and what dances you went to, and things like that. IG: 21:31 And you mentioned you had a boyfriend. EK: 21:35 Yes, I did. IG: 21:35 And so what-what life did he expose you? EK: 21:42 He, um [inaudible] is actually his name. I kept his name. [inaudible] Uram was actually my family's name. IG: 21:53 Oh, that is very interesting. EK: 21:56 So and I just actually saw his sister for the first time. And, I do not know how many years, I just did a TED talk last year. I hope maybe you were there. IG: 22:10 I know I was not there. I so I miss your talk. So- EK: 22:19 I just saw her for the first time in years, and his parents had gone, but she still felt like family to me. So he was a townie, what we used to call a townie, yes. Oh, and he commuted, and he lived at home with his parents. So being that he commuted, they got him a car. So that was like the epitome he had a car. We could go places. We could go out on dates. He we used to drive all over upstate New York. I do not know if [inaudible] still there. It was a monastery. IG: 22:56 Yes, I visited it. EK: 22:58 It was a beautiful experience. It is like we used to do things like that quite a bit together, especially on the weekends. And he studied and also worked this whole time [inaudible]. And his mother worked in- as a waitress in the Arlington Hotel. I do not know if it is still there. Third speaker 23:21 What hotel? EK: 23:21 It was one of those ugly buildings, and she gave him all his money so he could go out and date and do things like that. So we had a pretty good time. And I was close to his family, because they were right there. So I go spend Christmas with the family and so on. And most of the activities centered around what they called Men's social clubs. They did not have fraternities. There was no football they were going to be principal and not have a football team, not have fraternities and so on. So but they had men's social clubs. And so most of the activities were for [inaudible] and then on social clubs, and then the big dances. EK: 23:21 The Arlington hotel, it was downtown. Third speaker 23:21 No, I do not know. Third speaker 24:08 I have a question. So how did you feel about having a curfew because boys did not have it, girls had it. So how did it make you feel about it? EK: 24:21 You know, we did not question it that much of the time. It was 1961. Boys could and also the boys could live off campus. And we did not like it that we were not, you know, like we'd [inaudible] know about it. And a lot of the girls used to sneak out after they did it, they did a great check at 10:30 and then they climb out the window and go over to their boyfriend's place. EK: 24:42 So, it was accepted that the way girls had to be treated, and it was a little bit of a joke, because the idea was, you know, you told me you cannot get pregnant before 10:30. You know, so it was a little bit of a joke, but we took it kind of as a joke. Nobody took it that seriously. Nobody was strongly into feminism or anything. EK: 24:42 Yeah, it is interesting. IG: 25:11 Was that was feminism or the women's right movement in the air at all? EK: 25:20 Not in Binghamton. IG: 25:22 But at Harpur? EK: 25:25 No-no, not really, not really. We had some very interesting guests that came and talked to us. And so there was a lot of politics in the air, mostly Vietnam politics. [inaudible] good news. He was a very well-known writer, and he came to campus. And when the Roosevelt came to campus and he did not have any money, she charged a lot of money, and one of the student leaders told me, we do not have money left to [inaudible] And she [inaudible] limousine one day and hung out with everybody. IG: 26:04 That is great. That is great. EK: 26:06 But there was not much about feminism. The females were all there to get to get a husband and a degree. IG: 26:19 Well, you found it you know your boyfriend, and then who became your husband. Were there? Was there anxiety about the Vietnam War, and how did it express itself? And as his- EK: 26:36 Tremendous anxiety about the Vietnam War, because that was the age of the guys that were getting drafted. And so there were two ways not to get drafted. And one used to go to graduate school. [inaudible] to get in and keep studying, and the other was to get married. So a lot of people were getting married to keep the guy out of the war. A lot of my friends got married last year, and also the pill have just come out control, a- EK: 27:11 Birth control. EK: 27:12 So a lot of them, you know, even technical version in those days, the technical discussion how old you are now? IG: 27:22 Well, [crosstalk] I see, I see. EK: 27:27 And so a lot of the girls once they decided marrying a guy,[coughs] [inaudible] enjoy birth control, so they got pregnant, and the girls dropped out of the guy finished school. So a lot of my female friends went home last year to have their babies. IG: 27:50 Unmarried or married? EK: 27:51 Married, they slept with the guy only because he became engaged and they knew he was the one they were going to marry. Otherwise, she did not have sex with anybody. [inaudible] marry him, then the sexual thing has changed drastically. IG: 28:07 Yes, I agree. So was- were you involved at all in student activism, was there were any of your friends involved in student activism, and what was the nature of that? EK: 28:29 Listen very much. There was a small group of students from the city that were involved in activism, and most people mostly people, I think, kept themselves into their own group. IG: 28:49 So- EK: 28:49 And some-some activism in that Vietnam and that was all these, nothing, I remember, nothing about feminism. IG: 29:01 What about the Civil Rights Movement? EK: 29:04 Well, the civil rights movement, yes, definitely, and we will let anybody who went in March, I met, I actually worked on Shirley Chisholm presidential campaign that was already in California. IG: 29:19 That is very interesting. [crosstalk] yeah, she is one of the people we have interviewed in our 60s collection. EK: 29:34 She was not really the first woman to do anything, and she really was a tough woman, history [inaudible] president. Then I was already in California, doing my internship. And once I got to California, I got I was not very aware of politics. I was just doing my own life. And when I was at Hartford, once I got to California, there was civil rights. It was Vietnam, there was black people running for offices, all kinds of stuff, and there was the abortion coalition. That was the first big issue of feminism. IG: 30:10 Was that in the (19)70s, when did you get to California? EK: 30:15 Got to California in the late (19)60s, maybe 1968 and they had started. I was in Ohio. Oh, I know- Ohio until 1968 studying psychology, and that is when the consciousness raising groups began. And so we all got ourselves in the consciousness raising group, and all became feminists, and there were no courses in psychology of women at all. They let us organize someone and teach without a faculty member, but all the faculty were men, and they did not have any idea what we were doing. So when I became a feminist, it was in the mid (19)60s. I had already, I was maybe four years out of Harpur. I was not going on while I was in Harpur. IG: 31:17 So there were no- you did not really have that much of a political awareness at that time at Harpur? EK: 31:31 [crosstalk] interested in learning and in having fun- EK: 31:38 -and that is the way I use race, that you pay attention to your own life and you do not get involved in this other stuff. My entire family is still that way. I am the only one who's political, and I became very political. I wrote in several books on [inaudible] psychology. IG: 31:38 In having fun. IG: 31:54 That is remarkable. What did you think owes to this? You know, radical departure from the way you were brought up. Is it the academic experience that you were exposed to, or what-what do you think contributed to your enlightenment? EK: 32:18 I think I academically studied and just like they call it quickly, study this stuff, and all of a sudden you realize that this is not a normal world. This is a world that you will be impressed. And so that moment, it just feels normal. Well, of course, blacks cannot go into places that whites go into. And you know, I looked at in the south, so I never really saw that. But, you know, females cannot be used, men keeping it and so on. And all of a sudden, you read the material, and there is a huge quick in your head, and you see that it is not normal, and it is not just the way the world is, the way the world will be constructed. And once you see that, you see it can all be reconstructed and reconstructed, and you know, the same again. IG: 33:09 Did you that is very interesting. Did you learn any of these intellectual skills? Do you believe at Harpur College? Did you get any of the sort of, you know, foundational, you know, intellectual, intellectual foundation for this, to make that leap? EK: 33:34 I would say, not in the sense of content, but in the sense of thought process. Because what I began to do the work that I do, I was not a therapist for too long, even though I studied therapy, but what I write is epistemology and philosophy of science. So what I wanted to do was to ask the questions. And that is what those fields are. You know, why? How do we know what we know? Is it makes a question of epistemology, and I have written several books on that topic. And I just, I actually just wrote one of the blind people who are, how do they understand gender and race? And that was my question. How do they know what they know they cannot see skin color. They cannot see any other stuff. Yet, they really need to know about all those things. IG: 34:27 So I am just curious. So how do they know? How do they perceive race? EK: 34:33 They asked their friends, you see, when I started writing the book, I was hoping that they were going to have a different system, not that they were not going to discriminate, because they were human beings, but they were going to have a different system, maybe touch, maybe something else. No, they go around and they ask their friends and then have this whole elaborate way of asking, like, if they go to a bar and they need a woman there. Her, they have a similar [inaudible], and when he shakes hands to tell them if she is pretty or ugly, so they know whether to go out with her. IG: 35:10 But they must have experienced discrimination themselves. EK: 35:15 You know, many of them did not, because they went to schools and they were all mixed together. I mean, they got to the A's when they started dating, they would bring home a boy, and the mother would say, you cannot date that boy. He is not of your race. And that is when they started learning. IG: 35:32 I see. Was there, yeah- EK: 35:36 Very startling to read about how they learn about race and gender and sexual orientation. We have a lot of stuff about transgender going on now, and they cannot tell the difference because the voice is the same. So the transgender things that are going on are just visual. And so I came to realize how much of our society is an issue. IG: 36:03 That is, that is very That is fascinating. EK: 36:09 That is actually what my Tiktok was on. It is unusual. IG: 36:14 I-I will look at it after we speak. But returning to Harpur College, did you feel that there were groups, you know, or individuals that were discriminated? Did you have, well, you probably did not have this idea of discrimination per se, but did you feel that it was there was, you know, maybe less of it because it was a homogeneous community, or was there any, any kind of discrimination on campus? EK: 36:53 There was not much. The students from downstate were almost 100 percent Jewish. Ones from upstate were almost 100 percent capital Protestant. EK: 36:58 They did not mix with each other. They did not think about marrying each other. I had friends that I do not know if you have spoken to Dolores Chapel yet. IG: 36:58 Yeah. IG: 37:09 No. EK: 37:11 She knows she is [inaudible]. IG: 37:13 Yeah, I am writing down her name. Okay. EK: 37:16 She was somebody that used to speak to; she was married to Giles Hoyt and he became a German professor. She was growing another guy ever since high school from her hometown, which was Tonawanda. When it got time to marry, she converted Catholicism, and they broke up after 10 years of dating, and she married somebody else, sure he did too. So the big discrimination was between religions, and it was not just Jewish and Catholic and Protestant, also. the, uh, I do not believe there were any other groups on campus. Everybody was white. Two men who came from Barbados and must have been on scholarship. So they were not Americans, and they did not stay very long. What happened is that one of my friends began dating, one of them, and her father happened to be a photographer, and so she sent, she only sent her pictures home to be developed. Remember, they used to develop pictures. He saw that she was sitting on the lap of a black man, and he pulled her out of school and made her come to Hofstra so and there were two black men. There were maybe 400 students in each class, if I remember correctly, and everybody else was white, if you consider [inaudible] used to be white. IG: 38:55 I am laughing. And yet, Ellyn, you married, you know, someone who was a townie. I married a Catholic boy. So isn't that kind of a very rebellious, you know, decision to have made, and- EK: 39:18 Yes. You seem to getting to know me, I was not rebellious, I just do what I want to do. And especially then, it was like that. And also, I had dated him for four years, but my family should have been ready for it. IG: 39:33 Right. Have they? EK: 39:34 You know, I met him in freshman year. IG: 39:37 Yeah, had they met him? EK: 39:39 But neither of us had any particular variation. IG: 39:49 So did you encounter any resistance from either of the families? EK: 39:56 My family. IG: 39:57 Yeah, yeah. But you prevailed. EK: 40:04 It was not a horrible resistance to say, he knew they could not control me by that point. IG: 40:10 I-I guess not. EK: 40:13 Yeah, I was going to do what I was going to do. So we got married, and part of the reason we got married, this is a funny anecdote that you are making me think of it is they had $250 round trip. You could go to Europe for the summer. It was a shorter flight. And I said, I cannot go to Europe. I do not marry him. We cannot travel around Europe. It is not like today. And so the week before graduation, we got married, week after we went and spent some [inaudible]. IG: 40:45 I have known people to get married for lesser reasons. EK: 40:53 That is the main reason that I married him. IG: 40:56 Well, you know, if you read contemporary Soviet literature, you know, there is stories by Trifonov [Yury Trifonov] about, you know, couples marrying because somebody had a- an apartment in a prime neighborhood- EK: 41:18 Oh yeah, [inaudible] IG: 41:21 -apartment with an extra room. So-so I am curious, how do you think that your classmates remember you from Harpur College days? EK: 41:32 A lot of the people I was friendly with had graduated, most of the New York City kids who went back the second year we could not take it in Binghamton, so a lot of us did not graduate together. There are fewer in touch with Peter Carroll Oliver [inaudible] or Erin Oliver, IG: 41:53 No. EK: 41:56 Well, you missed. IG: 41:58 No. I mean, I- no, I do not. EK: 42:01 I do not know if you want to list the people in general. IG: 42:04 That would be wonderful. That would be wonderful, but I need to speak to graduates, I think. But it would be really wonderful to get a list from you. EK: 42:18 Carol graduating from there. Bruce Benderson graduated from there. He became a writer, and he lives in Paris and writes in French. IG: 42:27 Oh, wow. EK: 42:27 So he'd be an interesting guy. Yes. Carol Oliver became a one of those Maharishi people, and she lives in Iowa at Maharishi University. IG: 42:41 That is great. EK: 42:43 And, you know, there was a lot of hippie stuff going on. IG: 42:48 Was there experimentation drugs? EK: 42:56 There was not much drugs. I remember Cal gave me for a wedding present, a nickel bag of grass. To translate into current lingo, a nickel bag was like $5 worth of marijuana. That was a wedding present for me, and I had never seen it before. I did not know what to do with it. There was not much in the way of drugs. It was a lot of alcohol. IG: 43:23 A lot of alcohol. So but my question was more, what do you think that? How do you think your classmates would remember you? How do you remember yourself from that period? EK: 43:46 I remember myself as mostly being [inaudible] and his friends and studying and socializing and not being anything. So I am not sure how many of them would remember me, except the ones that I was close to. Names that I am hearing you will definitely remember me. IG: 44:10 So you are in touch with these other people? EK: 44:13 Not in touch with some of them, but some of them even come up on Facebook and see what they are doing. The reason I know about Giles and Dolores is when John first came out here with some [inaudible] he was trying to give some money to the German department or something. He was a German major, IG: 44:36 And his name is Giles? IG: 44:38 All right. EK: 44:38 And I do not think I got along with him very well, because they do not set the alarm to six o'clock in the morning to get up and study it. I was like, "Are you people crazy?" So, you know, because they had, they had fair people often with what we get along well as roommates. And when I did finally get the roommate, they had fairly rich. They were right. We did not get along. Oh, here is another funny story. Her name was, I mean, I do not know how much detail you want. Her name was Sophia Kashack, K, A, S C H, A, K, and she sat next to Bob in orientation. His name was Kaschak, and she fixed me up on a blind date with him. That is how I met him. So [inaudible] EK: 44:38 Giles G, I, L, E, S, and his last name is H, O, Y, T, and the wife [inaudible] I guess, I guess she took his name. Her name was Doris. She was my roommate. She was my first roommate. IG: 45:39 I am- And so Kaschak, how do you spell that again? K, A- EK: 45:45 My version? IG: 45:46 Your version EK: 45:47 K, A, S, C HA, K IG: 45:51 So similar to yours? With [crosstalk] yeah, I understand. So, what do you think you know kind of looking back on this experience at Harpur College, what lessons did you learn from life at this time, from this time? EK: 46:15 Well, the thing that was most important to me is how intelligent the students were, that I finally there had people I could have conversations with, you know, on the equal level, and that there were other people in the world who thought about the things that I thought about and wanted to do the things that I wanted to do. And I think that really served me a lot because that brought me out of my shell. In some way, it made me realize all the things that was possible to do. So in some ways, I would say there were a few good faculty members, but mostly it was the other students for me. IG: 47:00 And you were kind of, you found yourself, you were coming into your own, or you were finding yourself. EK: 47:06 I was, I did find myself. I very much came into my own. My retirement on psychology. I had quite a bit of confidence and so forth. IG: 47:17 That is wonderful. EK: 47:20 I did not have that when I went to Harpur, I was just kind of beaten down and told not to go to college and get married and all that. Love to see some of those people again, but it would be a shock. I am sure you think that you look exactly the same and everybody else has changed. IG: 47:45 I am sure that there would be there you would find common ground if you were friends during your formative years at college, I think that there would be a connection still. EK: 47:57 I think so too. And a lot of them went on to be writers, and a couple of them from, you know, in Hollywood, Richie Cunningham and what is the other guy's name, there were a few graduates eventually- the usual audience are very-very big Hollywood producers, Rob Reiner and people that you would know. IG: 48:27 Wow. It would be so helpful. So to get a list, a short list, EK: 48:35 You do not have those names. IG: 48:36 I have those names, but I cannot identify them from lists of hundreds of people. So if you [crosstalk] I just have a whole directory. And the year they graduate I do not have, I-I- you know, you are pinpointing the people that would be very interesting for me to talk to, and I think for posterity, to have- EK: 48:59 Yeah, people that went on to be very well known in Hollywood, to be very good writers. I cannot think of that. It is not coming to me right now, but it will. IG: 49:09 Okay that it would be really great. So you know, for-for someone listening to this tape. And you know, considering-considering, you know, the considering going to Binghamton University in just in a future generation. What could you tell this prospective student about your experience and about-about what are the most important lessons that you have learned in life that relate to education? EK: 49:52 You know, it is hard for me to say, because Binghamton is so different. It was like a small I wanted a small college room. I would get to know everybody, and it would be like a community, and that is what it was. And now I do not even know any people that were there, but it is overwhelming to come to the campus. I was extremely impressed. John took me around, but it seems like they have a lot of really fascinating opportunities and summer programs and things like that that I was very impressed with, and I still think the students are very bright. EK: 50:27 Yeah. EK: 50:27 I think it is very important. I do not know. I cannot, I cannot really say, because I was there for two days. I think it is very important. From what I understand, the faculty is very good right now. Also, I met Russian Studies faculty, that is kind of what I am interested in. And I met Don and Harvey and [inaudible] studies faculty, Liam Mueller and whatever it is, and they are very enthusiastic and very motivating. But I think at least for me, the most important thing were the other students, the first time in my life, the other students were as smart as I was, and able to have the conversations I wanted to have, and that is really what changed me. EK: 51:18 But I could not hear it now. EK: 51:28 It does not even does not even look the same. IG: 51:30 Yeah. EK: 51:30 You will see some of the pictures because they sent a picture of the student union and the old dorms, which I can go offices now. And it is a completely different place. It would be hard for me to comment on it now. I think it is a top education. IG: 51:44 Yes, that is a wonderful plug, but your criticism or your advice to future administrations is to have a greater diversity of students and faculty. Is that it? EK: 52:01 I think they have it now, I looked at it when I was there. IG: 52:04 Yes, okay. EK: 52:06 I was just there last March when I did the TED talk and I said, "Oh my god, they have every city, every color, every other people." I think they have done it. IG: 52:15 They have done it. EK: 52:16 Without my advice, IG: 52:17 Without your advice. EK: 52:21 Because the world has changed so much. IG: 52:23 Yes, it has. EK: 52:25 You know, you cannot do that. IG: 52:28 I have. EK: 52:29 I was very impressed by the administrators and the faculty that I met. I met a few students because I gave a scholarship for summer work with women. So I met that student and some of the students had questions. They came to talk to me. IG: 52:44 That is wonderful. Any concluding remarks? Ellyn, I know that you are braving your cold so we can end now after an hour, but I would like to ask you if you had if you have any concluding thoughts or remarks, EK: 53:08 [inaudible] and also feel free to call me again when I am not sick, if you need other comments or other names or something. I am just getting over that horrible [inaudible]. So that is what this caution is about. I live in, oh, I live in Costa Rica now. IG: 53:28 Oh, that is incredible. EK: 53:31 Just here for a few weeks to take care of taxes and business. And so I went down to Costa Rica when I was in George Washington, and got to know the place, and I have been teaching there and training students and training therapists throughout probably four decades. In addition to being here, I split my time. IG: 53:50 So what are, what are the university that you are teaching at in Costa Rica? EK: 53:57 It is called the University for Peace, and it is the United Nations campus. There are four of them in the world. They bring students in from- this is how much I changed from back then. They bring students in from all over the world, and they teach them skills that hopefully are, you know, conflict resolution, and skills that are hopefully helpful in bringing about peace. And they send them back to their countries. They become diplomats, they become presidents of their countries, and it is one way to try to bring about peace. And they are wonderful students. IG: 54:32 That is wonderful. And what do you teach them? You teach them what? EK: 54:38 I teach gender and peace. My- I have got my [inaudible] to be, you know, gender and ethnicity and sexual orientation, pretty much, but as a clinical psychologist, so I teach them those topics and how they handle their peace issues. IG: 54:55 What a wonderful life. EK: 54:58 It is fabulous. I love it there. It turned out to be [inaudible]. And I keep writing I just have a look at so- I could say that about Harpur also got me started on exactly the life I wanted to have and I was meant to have. IG: 55:14 That is very gratifying to hear. EK: 55:18 And I am thinking now about getting some kind of donation to a program, because I am really grateful that they starting out. IG: 55:25 Well, I if-if I can, I will pass that information to John Koch, and he will be delighted. I am sure. EK: 55:35 I have noticed him very well. I have met with him several times, working on what project I can do. He is a lovely man. IG: 55:41 I will, I will let him know. EK: 55:45 Okay, and if you need to find me, yeah, like an ocean sound, okay? IG: 55:50 I will. I will, in a few days, I will email you for those names. I taken some down, but I, I am, I will, I will do a follow up, EK: 56:02 Okay, and take the coughing out of my tape. IG: 56:04 I will, we will, we will. Okay, thank you so much. EK: 56:12 Happy to talk to you again anytime you want to. IG: 56:15 Thank you so much. Get better soon. EK: 56:18 Thank you. IG: 56:19 Bye, bye. Take care. Bye, bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellyn Uram Kaschak Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni at San Jose State University. Harpur College – Alumni at University for Peace in Costa Rica; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in San Francisco. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ellyn Kaschak is an award-winning psychologist, author, teacher and human rights activist. She is a professor emerita of psychology at San Jose State University. She teaches in the gender studies program at University for Peace in Costa Rica. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaschak, Ellyn Uram ; Gashurov, Irene Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ellyn Kaschak.mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Language A language of the resource eng Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-13 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 56:23 minutes Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/db07d2a3541c28677edb4bffcdcffe75.mp3 2a4a5b8141094ebfb7f9fa67a87824f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Andrew Grant Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Dr. Andrew Grant is a retired Assistant VP for Institutional Advancement at Hebrew Union College in NYC. He worked as a disc jockey at WHRW-FM. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Andrew Grant Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 14 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Where are you, if I may ask? Are you at home or in your office? AG: 00:04 I do not have an office. I am retired. IG: 00:06 Oh! AG: 00:07 On January 2. IG: 00:09 Could you- well, congratulations on your retirement. We just want to make you a little bit louder. I am- Third speaker 00:15 Okay. This is, I think, the loudest. IG: 00:19 That is the loudest it can go? IG: 00:20 do I need to do that? Or you do that? Yeah, it does. It does not get louder, yeah, can you? Can you do it from your end? Dr, Chris, AG: 00:31 I do not think so. I think my volume control is only- my machine, Third speaker 00:37 Yeah. AG: 00:37 Is that better, or no? IG: 00:40 I think so. I think so, okay, okay, so why do not we begin, um- AG: 00:48 [inaudible] you need to move a little bit more together so I can see. IG: 00:54 Okay-okay, so we are not- Third speaker 00:58 Okay, okay, I will just- IG: 01:00 I am just looking through my notes. That is, that is why I moved away. Okay, so why do not we begin with you identifying yourself when you were born, what you do and when you went to Binghamton, AG: 01:27 What was the last one? IG: 01:29 When you went to Binghamton? Or we could ask that later. AG: 01:34 Okay. My name is Andrew grant. I was born in November of 1946. I went to Binghamton. I graduated in 1967. IG: 01:46 Okay, very good. So where did you grow up? AG: 01:51 In Manhattan and the Bronx. IG: 01:54 Oh, may I ask where in Manhattan? AG: 01:58 In Washington Heights. IG: 01:59 Oh, I lived in Washington Heights. AG: 02:02 Where? IG: 02:04 By Fort Tryon Park. AG: 02:05 Yeah, that is where I lived. IG: 02:07 Okay, 1/80 and Fort Washington Avenue in probably the most beautiful apartment building and apartment that I have ever lived in. It was beautiful, Art Deco. AG: 02:24 Yeah, I was, we were on 1/90 and Hillside. Speaker 1 02:27 Okay, AG: 02:27 At the lower at the lower end of the park, my sister actually still has an apartment up there. IG: 02:31 Oh! Well, um, yeah, I am familiar with that area very well, and a lot of my Russian emigre friends lived there. There was a big Russian community in Washington Heights, but that is, that is after your time. AG: 02:52 That is after my time. My time was, it was many Holocaust survivors, as-as-as was my family. IG: 03:02 Yeah, okay. These were, these were refuseniks who came to the US in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s. A lot of- AG: 03:15 My parents. My parents came from Germany in 1940. IG: 03:18 Okay-okay, all right, so and who were your parents? AG: 03:25 Who were they? Who were my- the names? IG: 03:27 What you can tell us their names, what did they do? What was their occupation? Where were they from? You mentioned this briefly. They were from Germany. They came in 1940. What did they do in Germany? What did they do in the United States? What was their occupation? AG: 03:47 My father, my father had a- his family had a textile company, and when he came to the States, he became a textile salesman. My mother was a homemaker. IG: 03:59 Okay, all right. And did they- did your parents go to college? IG: 04:06 No. IG: 04:07 Yeah. And what were their- 04:09 -and they did not pick it up when they got here. IG: 04:12 I see what were their expectations for you in terms of college? Was education valued in your family? AG: 04:20 It was they expected that I would go to college, and I did. IG: 04:31 So can you elaborate a little bit? Were they supportive of your- I mean, did they help you study? Did they help you choose your college, or were they, yeah- Speaker 2 04:46 It was, it was not a- an issue- was always assumed that it would go to college and we- they, you know, it was very different in those days. I just- my daughter just graduated from Colby, and the process of getting her situated in the school that she wanted to go with all the visits and the trips was very different. We went to visit Binghamton. I saw it. I do not think I visited any other schools. I chose it for a number of reasons. It had a good reputation. It was a state school. It was inexpensive. I had a regional scholarship, so it became less expensive, and there was not as much thought about it when I went to school, certainly as when my daughter weighed her options for which school she wanted to go to. IG: 05:52 Okay, I-I-I- that was also the experience, my experience versus my daughter's, I think a lot more thought went into her college selection. So what was your experience at Harpur College? AG: 06:18 It was- IG: 06:19 Yeah. AG: 06:20 I guess the best word I could use is bland. IG: 06:23 Bland. AG: 06:24 It was bland. It was, it was- I was not, you know, there was a lot going on in the (19)60s. I was not much of an activist. It was, it was a question of getting through my studies. I was not a superior student by any means my academic success came much later on, when I, when I proceeded, pursued my doctorate. I had a small group of friends and was not very much involved. I was involved with the radio station, so that was my extracurricular activity. And it was really a question of trying to find myself at that time. IG: 07:05 Well, that is, I mean, these are all very interesting points, so maybe let us start with the most interesting to you, which was the radio station. Tell us about that. AG: 07:19 It was, well, I was, I was looking for an extracurricular opportunity there as and all of the clubs and all of the other extracurricular activities, there was, you know, I guess there was a fair, or whatever it was they displayed. And it was, it was, I had never done that before. And it was, it was an interesting group of people, and we all got our FCC licenses, and that was where I spent most of the- my time that was not in class and in the library. IG: 07:53 So the radio station was conducted from the library, the physical space? AG: 07:58 No-no, It was conducted- IG: 08:00 Oh, I see I misunderstood. AG: 08:03 I was either in class or in the library study- IG: 08:05 I see, I see I misunderstood. Okay, so I would like you to talk more about the radio station. Where was it located? AG: 08:15 I think it was in the student center, if I remember correctly. And we had a- in those days was it was, I think while I was there, they expanded it, they bought a much more powerful transmitter, and I had many of my friends that I was close with and I met through the through the radio station. Third speaker 08:45 Wait, what was it called? AG: 08:47 WHRW. Third speaker 08:49 Because it is still continuing, and I still listen. They play great music. New Age, different- IG: 09:00 Oh. Third speaker 09:00 Yeah, they do. I even listen some Turkish music there. IG: 09:04 Oh wow, that is incredible. Third speaker 09:06 Yes. AG: 09:09 They still have reunions. I know that I did not go to my reunion. I went back to Binghamton a few years after I graduated, and I got lost on the campus, and that was the last time I went back. AG: 09:20 I graduated in (19)67 maybe (19)71-(19)72. [crosstalk] you have to remember, if you look at an aerial photograph of the campus, there is a kidney shaped drive that goes around in the middle. That is all there was. And in those days, that kidney shaped drive that went around a number of the buildings, but that was the entire campus at that time, and then it expanded tremendously. IG: 09:22 When was that? IG: 09:55 Hmm. Yeah, that that is our impression from speaking with other graduates from-from this time, from the (19)60s, that it was kind of a, you know, a smaller, much smaller version um-um. of-of- it was, it was actually a different-different-different type of campus. It was very kind of bare bones. But returning to the- excuse me. AG: 10:27 It was tiny. IG: 10:28 It was tiny. But returning, I am really curious about the radio station. What role did you play? Was-was the- was it a sound studio? I mean, how- what-what was the equipment that you used? AG: 10:42 I did not hear the question, was it a, what type of studio? IG: 10:48 Sound studio, sound studio. AG: 10:51 inaudible] It was- there was a, there was an office, and there was a, there was a- an on-air studio with offices, you know, an office around it, and wherever the trend, the transmitter was someplace else. And we- I did some of the, some administrative activities we all managed, helped manage it, and I did a little bit of on air announcing. IG: 11:29 What kind of music did you play? What kind of talk shows did you have, if any? AG: 11:35 [inaudible] talk shows. I did some-some music, some-some popular, current music and of the day. IG: 11:43 So what, what was, you know, some of the- AG: 11:46 Easy listening kind of stuff. IG: 11:47 I see. It was, is that? So, what role did you have? Did you decide on, on what music was? Went on air? AG: 11:58 Yeah, for those, for those few shows, and I was what they call the traffic manager, and now we are talking 50 years ago, so you are testing my memory. IG: 12:09 I am. [laughs] AG: 12:11 More than 50 years ago. IG: 12:13 More than 50 years ago. Okay, so it was, it was really easy listening. There were no, there were no, there was not much reporting. Or did you do any reporting? AG: 12:27 A little bit, we did a little bit of news. I think I filled in one night for-for somebody who, who did the news, who was not able to make his show. So I was, I was, I was a fill in for that night. IG: 12:39 Was the news local, or was it national? AG: 12:44 It was national., IG: 12:45 it was national. AG: 12:46 National. Yeah. IG: 12:47 So- AG: 12:49 We had a UPI ticker. So we read the news from the UPI ticker that came in. We had a subscription to that. It was, it was a fairly well supported function. IG: 13:04 How many were you? AG: 13:08 Oh, I would not begin to try to remember that well. IG: 13:12 Approximately. Was-was it 10? Was it two? Was it 100? AG: 13:19 I would say that maybe involved in the in the station at that time, maybe there, there were 20 people. IG: 13:24 I see. So, you, you do not remember what the news of the day was. What were the important discussions that were taking place during those years? Do- AG: 13:37 Well, I was it was the Vietnam War, obviously. Was that- was this, the 67 war, these- in Israel was development of the State of Israel, the war. Those are the ones that that stand up. IG: 13:58 Yeah, do you remember what you know, position, politically, the radio talk show hosts would take of the war. Were they- were you just neutrally reporting events? Or- AG: 14:18 I do not remember. IG: 14:19 You do not remember. AG: 14:20 I would assume it was, it was an anti-war stance because of who we were, but I cannot conjure that out of my memory. IG: 14:32 Right. That is understandable. So how many years did you spend on the radio? Was it your entire college career, or...? [crosstalk] AG: 14:50 My college career was only three years, because I took advantage of the trimester system, I went, I went two summers, I should have graduated in (19)68. I graduated from high school in (19)64 but I went two summers and made up a full year that way. IG: 15:10 That is pretty intense. AG: 15:12 It was a mistake. IG: 15:14 Yeah. So what was, what were your academics like? What did you study? What was your major? AG: 15:23 Major was political science. I intended to go to law school. I went- had a year of law school, and then I would have been drafted. So at that time, there was- we were looking, everybody was looking for an option, and I became a New York City school teacher. IG: 15:43 Oh. AG: 15:44 I was in, I was in law school, and my mother called me up, and she said she and my friend's mother had gone down to the Board of Ed, and that they, they had, there was a teacher shortage, and they-they had a program which was called manpower channeling, so anybody became a teacher got a deferment. I spent, I think was five or six years teaching in elementary school, and I was already pursuing my-my doctorate at that time in public administration at NYU. What happened with that program is the city bought courses in all the local universities, and they paid for 12 credits for anybody who was accepted in that program was fairly competitive, as you can imagine, because-because it was all guys who were looking for an alternative to the draft. So I completed, they gave me 12 credits at NYU. I completed a master's in an education in 1970 and then I was very much interested in urban planning and enrolled in the- what is now the Wagner school for public service. Wagner that time known as the graduate school for public administration, and I was in that master's program for maybe a year or two, and they came out with a PhD MUP option, which is what I eventually graduated from. IG: 17:38 Interesting. So while you were teaching, where did you teach? Which neighborhood? AG: 17:45 In Marble Hill, in the Bronx. IG: 17:46 In the what? Excuse me. AG: 17:48 Marble Hill in the Bronx. IG: 17:50 Oh, I know where that is- a beautiful museum. So returning to Harpur College, how- did-did- Was there any- do you remember any faculty at Harpur that made an impression on you? AG: 18:12 Yeah, I remember, I- as a political science major. I was- I took many of the political science courses I but I the one that stands out most was an English teacher by the name of Sheldon Grebstein, who I eventually met later on he became the president of SUNY Purchase for a while since retired, but I was there, and I lived close by to that campus. I had a membership to their swimming pool, and I had met him before I was a senior, and I took his poetry clothes- course. There was also a political science professor by the name of Blair Ewing, who left there, whom I remembered because I was accused of having stolen his final exam. IG: 19:12 And did you, did you? AG: 19:17 I did not. AG: 19:18 It was a, it was quite a, quite a traumatic- I was a very naive young man, and I had a- one of the best final exam schedules I ever had. It was a dream schedule. I was done on Wednesday, and I had a date in New York to see one of the other students at Harpur's, to go to Peter Paul and Mary concert. And I was home for a day, and I get a call from the Dean, and they say, "You have been implicated in a cheating scandal. You have been accused of having stolen Professor Ewing's final exam." "What-what are you? No, they did not tell me that." They just said that I had been implicated in a cheating scandal, and they wanted me to come back. So, I said, I am not coming back. I did not do anything. We will deal with it when I get back after semester break, so the phone goes back and forth and back and forth, and they got my attention when they told me I could have an attorney present. IG: 19:18 You did not. [laughs] IG: 20:31 That you could what? AG: 20:34 That I could have an attorney present. IG: 20:38 Oh-oh, wow, wow, that is serious. AG: 20:41 That was serious. So, I said to the dean, "Give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I have no idea what you are talking about," which I did not, "and tell me what I have been accused of, or I will not come back. Either give me some details," I said. They told me that I was holding up the entire classes grades. Remember very well it was, it was Blair Ewing's course in totalitarians, comparative totalitarian systems. And I said, you tell me "Why you think I did something, and then I will come back." So they said that I had been accused of having stolen an exam. I had broken into his office and stolen exam. And then I sort of started remembering I had spoken to a friend of mine who actually was the general manager of the radio station, and I had spoken to him previously, and he had, like most students do, give me the details of this professor's previous exams, and he never changed his exams, so the questions were familiar. And I called him up and I said, I this is what is going on. He was still on campus because he was, he was involved in some activities that that he needed to be there for. And I said, "Look, I do not want a character reference. I want you to write a letter to the dean and tell her detail exactly what you told me without any without any value judgment." So this also happened to me, my first plane flight ever. I get back up to campus, I go into the dean's office. Ewing is sitting there. First words he said to me. And I- you can remember, you can imagine how-how prominent this is in my memory, because I remember it exactly. 50,52, 53, years later, he looked at me said, "Mr. Grant, I do not think you cheated. You should have done better." IG: 22:59 What an excellent response. AG: 23:01 I said, "What did I get?" He said, "You got to be on the exam." So, I sit down, and there is a young woman who is sitting there, and I recognized her as a student in the class, and then I remembered that I had met her in the in the snack bar just before the exam, and I saw her studying for the exam, and I said to her, "Well, you, you should study these things, and this is going to be the-the format of the of the exam." So I was talking to her, she reported me for having stolen test. IG: 23:34 How terrible. Third speaker 23:35 Oh my god. IG: 23:36 How terrible. How terrible. AG: 23:38 She thought she had missed out on something. So, I said to them, first of all, you had the letter from-from Joe Breast who was the, who was the general manager of the radio station. His main name may be familiar with Columbia, if you were going through the records of those days, who he and I graduated again, look to the data. I said, "Is it considered absolute academic dishonesty to research previous exams?" They said, "Absolutely not." I said, "Is it my fault?" And I looked at him "that you never change your exam questions." And so they got a chuckle out of that. And then this student looked at me, and she said, "But you knew the exact format of the exam," and I said to her, "As would you had you not cut the class where he gave that to us in class?" IG: 24:28 I am sorry. As- what did you tell her? AG: 24:31 She-she had cut the class where he gave us the format. IG: 24:35 I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. Oh, how terrible. AG: 24:41 I said "Was there ever any evidence of your office having broken into it that somebody had taken your exam?" "No-no-no." I looked at them and said, "So, what am I doing here?" And they looked at me and they said, "Well, there was a good faith accusation, and we had to follow up." So, they paid all of my expenses and sent me on my way, and the dean looked at me, and she said, "Next time, do not be so forthcoming with information for somebody else." IG: 25:13 What was the good faith student reprimanded? AG: 25:18 Again, I never saw her again. She just she vanished from campus. I think she was embarrassed. I do not think they reprimanded her, because she felt that she had enough information to-to make that good faith accusation. But she-she was the kind of student who cut a lot of the classes and all the and he had given us a great deal of information about the exam, so that was kind of one of the highlights of my college experience. It was not a pleasant one, but it came out okay, but I did not realize in my naivete how close I was to being expelled. IG: 25:56 But what I mean, it is just, it is awful. It is an awful experience that-that you know, reminds me of, of the time of Stalin, where, you know, neighbors would denounce each other. You know, but- AG: 26:16 Certainly, the case Nazi Germany for my parents. IG: 26:18 Yeah-yeah. Yes-yes. I mean, it is very, it is very similar, and but it must have been a really formative experience as well. Do you, do you- how do you think that that- I mean, it was a shock, probably to the system, and how did- what-what impact did it have on you? AG: 26:38 It was, it was, really, was not a shock. Because I-I believe I did not do anything so there was nothing, there was nothing. There could be no consequences, because I did not do anything which is stupid. I become much more circumspect in terms of information I give at the people and what you know, what I say, I felt I looked at them and I said, we could have done this on the phone. IG: 27:06 Yeah. AG: 27:08 If there was no evidence of any breach, we could have done it on the phone and-and have saved ourselves all of this time, expense and-and stress, [crosstalk] much more cautious person. I am- I certainly have disabused myself of the notion that-that being innocent protects you so that those- that was, that was, in fact, a formative experience. Third speaker 27:39 When did that happen? Were you a sophomore, freshman? Would- AG: 27:43 I think it was a sophomore. AG: 27:45 No. IG: 27:45 No, it is okay. It is all right. IG: 27:45 Do you remember the Dean's name? AG: 27:52 I remember the professor's name. He certainly can. IG: 27:55 Yeah. AG: 27:55 I am sure that is in the annals someplace. IG: 27:58 Well, so you were a sophomore, you returned for your junior year? What did your friends say about this incident? Do you remember? AG: 28:08 They just shook their heads. I said, you know this thing, it was, it was just, it was just, you know, kind of bureaucratic stupidity. If they told me what they needed to know on the phone I would have, it would have jogged my memory, and I was about this. I do not remember her name anymore. I said I had a conver- [his phone rings] Hold one second. Okay. IG: 28:34 Okay. AG: 28:35 That was my-my cell phone. My cell phone goes through my computer, so. IG: 28:44 I see, I see, okay, so, um, how do you think- AG: 28:51 I tried to close because it is if I, if I disconnect by accident, I will call you back. IG: 28:58 All right, that is fine, sure. That is fine, but you still have a little bit of time. AG: 29:04 Yeah, we are good. Okay, good. I close it and you are still there. IG: 29:08 Okay, very good. So how do you think your classmates remember you, if they were to tell me, those-those who remember, and those, for example, those you worked with on the radio? How would they describe you? AG: 29:28 Not sure I think they would describe me as that is hard to put-put into words that they were required to describe me as, you know, nice guy, not a, not a not a great student, not somebody who was, who was very involved and in any kind of political activity or any kind of activism, somebody who was, you know, we were kind of just there and good friend, but I have not really kept in touch with anybody from-from Binghamton at all. IG: 30:13 You have not? AG: 30:15 I have not. IG: 30:15 You have not. AG: 30:18 I tend not to do that. I tend to move on from one-one experience to the next very small circle of friends from, you know, different-different stages of my life. What is, what is amusing at-at this point is I have recently, become through Facebook, got connected with a group of friends from high school. I have, I have a distant cousin who I have been friendly with, and I was on his Facebook page, and there was a friend of his who looked familiar. His name was familiar. And I wrote him. I said, "Are you the same David who went to Clinton High School?" And he said, "Yes," and we had put together. There are five, five couples who all went to high school together, except my cousin. My cousin did not go to high school with me, but he met many of my high school friends at City College, where he went. So we now have a group of five couples who we meet every three or four months, and we go out to dinner, to a theater, to a Broadway production. And that predates. That is certainly from, from that era. IG: 31:46 That is, that is very nice. I wonder if I know of other couples who from Binghamton who see each other annually. They have reunions in different parts of the Northeast. So just tell me a little bit about campus life. You know, the majority of students were like you from New York City or Long Island. And then there were some students from upstate New York. Did you notice differences between these you know, city-city folk and townies, they were called, I think. AG: 32:33 I remember one, one of my one of my friends, was he was convinced that Jews had horns. That is how he grew up and-and his exposure to a lot of the New York students and a lot of the Jewish students was-was a kind of an eye opener for him. So yeah, we found a lot of, a lot of the upstate students a little bit provincial when I- before I got there, and my-my housing preferences, I put down that I did not want to.- I would prefer to room with somebody outside the area that came from. And I did that, and I had a roommate. We did not get to be good friends. And then through the radio station, I met some other people, and eventually roamed with them. And they were from -from the New York area, also from Westchester. And then eventually, my senior year, over junior, senior year, I got a single. IG: 33:38 So do you- did your impression of students from upstate- I mean, you mentioned that there was a cultural difference between New Yorkers and, you know, upstate New Yorkers. Did you, did your impression of upstate New Yorkers change over the time that you were at Harpur? AG: 34:05 I got friendly with people. I, yeah, there was one I- we exchanged visits during vacation. So a number of people come home to New York with me and show them New York. I went to their homes and- IG: 34:19 Where? In Binghamton or? AG: 34:22 No, upstate, and that now these were not people who these were all people within the dorms, I said, people who were local. I see. And we, you know, we realized we had more in common than we had differences, as is typical when you put different cultural groups together. IG: 34:45 Yes-yes, I agree. So tell me a little bit about more about your free time on campus. Did you spend it all at the radio station? Or did you hang out with your friends in the dorm? Or, how did you spend- AG: 35:04 Partially, even the radio station, mostly hanging out with friends in the dorm, doing, you know, going to movies. I- nothing really stands out. IG: 35:16 Yeah. AG: 35:17 As-as you know, spectacular. We- it was, it was very much a lot of my-my friends were pre-med and pre law, as I was, and we did a lot of it was, there was a lot of- and we mostly were, were studious, and that was a reputation of the institution in those days, and I still, I think it is still the reputation of the institution that it is, it is certainly not a party school. It was very much a place where people paid attention to their studies, spent time in the library, and yet spent some time, you know, dating and going on dates and going out to dinner and campus events when there were performances, but that was pretty much it. IG: 36:10 So, how did you get around? Did somebody have a car, or did you take a bus? AG: 36:18 [inaudible] The- you know, the under the underclass years there were, there was transportation into town. Some people have had cars. There was a, there was a shopping mall within walking distance, right- next to campus. So wanted to go shopping. A good while they would walk. Some people had cars. We would go. There was a I am sure it is still there. I think it is still there. We did not go out with some of us went out to bars. We were not heavy drinkers. We were more when we went out. It was more to a place called Pat Mitchell's, which was an ice cream place. We would go out and we would, we would have ice cream, and there were weekend nights, sometimes we would go out drinking and in the bars. In those days, drinking age in New York was 18, so it was much easier to-to go out and socialize that way. IG: 37:32 I wanted to ask, were there women who worked on the radio? AG: 37:38 Yes-yes. IG: 37:40 Yes. Um, were- you know, do you think that there were different expectations for men than there were for women, or did the women who worked on the radio serious about what they were doing and maybe thinking of a career in radio? AG: 38:03 I do not really think, except for one person who became a journalist, I really do not think that anybody expected to make a career out of this, certainly not the people that I was close to. And no, I do not believe that the expectations for the women were any different for the men. Also the women who wanted to be on air. Broadcasters certainly had the opportunity to do that, and it may have been a question that I was not astute enough for any kind of discrimination as far as that was concerned. But I certainly the women who were interested in doing whatever they wanted to do on that particular extracurricular activity had ample opportunity to do it, and did and did so. IG: 38:58 it is interesting. So you know what looking back, what lessons do you think you learned from this time, including your unfortunate brush with this false accusation? What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? I mean, there are probably several, you know, because you spoke about, you know, the impact that the false accusation had on you. But what would you say? What did, what did this experience give you? AG: 39:38 The college experience? IG: 39:39 Yes. IG: 39:40 Or? IG: 39:41 Yeah, in a broader sense, not just a degree. AG: 39:44 It certainly was-was for the first time, I was away from home, and I was determined I had the same, I had the same offer that many of my friends did if I went. To City College, my parents would buy me a car. I said, keep your car. You know, the Holocaust families were very overprotective, and there was a friend of mine later said, you know somebody I had met. Much later, he said he went, he went swimming and got wet, off to your ankles. They sent out the lifeguards, my parents, my parents drove me up and we were 50 miles outside of Binghamton. She said, "You know, you can still go to City College." IG: 40:42 They were more comfortable with that alternative. AG: 40:45 Yeah. The irony was that I had a friend who did exactly that and was killed in an automobile accident while he was, while he was in it was going to City College. So you never know. You just never know. IG: 40:58 You really never know. AG: 40:59 It gives you, yeah, I think, I think that whole experience was, I did not come out. You know, everybody comes out of those experiences different. But I, you know, it was an experience. I-I-I, when I was in graduate school, I look back and I said, it is you really need to apply yourself a little bit more to your studies than you did when you were in school. It was a question of trying to find out, find my find-find out who I was as an individual. I got part of the way there, but [crosstalk] IG: 41:34 What did you, yeah, find out about yourself as an individual from that short period for from those three years? AG: 41:45 that I was, that I was very much a solitary kind of individual. I know that when my father was a road salesman, and he would leave on Monday, he still had institutional textiles, and he had a fairly broad territory, which included the Adirondacks and his- many times during school vacations. When I was in high school, our vacation where we would go along with him, we go up to-to the resort areas, and sometimes he took me along by myself. And I remember thinking to myself, What a horrible, lonely existence this is. And later on in life, I find, I found, I learned the difference between loneliness and solitude. And although, you know, I married, I have a family, but there are, there are many times, right- My wife is still working, and I cherish the time that-that I have to myself. You know, it is kind of a transition when you retire, and I was worried about filling the time that I am reading. One of the things that-that happened in Binghamton was that that I was not very much of a reader. I had difficulty in talking to people about current events other than what was going on classes. I remember I once went gone with a friend to his home, and they had-had a very animated political discussion, and I had really had nothing to say. I was very quiet, and I went to a counselor when I was in law school, and he looked at me, and I feel I often have nothing to offer intellectually. And he said, "Well, do you read?" I said, "Well, you know, do subscribe to magazines?" And at that time, I started reading for pleasure and for information. And I am, sometimes I am reading two, three books at the same time, thanks to my Kindle switching back and forth, and I very much value the time that I have to myself. You know, I did not realize that when I was at school as an undergraduate, but certainly developed that I was I always you know, found myself many times. I found myself doing things by myself, and realized later on that, well, you know, you-you, you know how to be your own best company. And that is, that is a very, very valuable lesson to learn. IG: 44:38 It is a valuable a lesson to learn. I am just wondering you spoke. [crosstalk] Yeah. AG: 44:46 I kind of came late to things throughout my whole life. My daughter was born. I was 49 when I had, when I had, she was an only child. I think that makes you better parent, certainly a mature-mature parents, because you are done building your career and-and have a wonderful relationship with her now. So it is, it is better late than never [inaudible] IG: 45:15 And just-just remind us, well for the record, your career was in development, or um- AG: 45:24 I started out as a New York City school teacher. IG: 45:27 Yes. AG: 45:28 And as I am fond of saying, it was the second to the last place in the world, I wanted to be, as I told you earlier. IG: 45:35 Yes. AG: 45:36 Vietnam was last, and I had a- was in the school, and one of my colleagues in the school got a job at the Central Headquarters of the New York City school system. And he was in the federal- he got a job in the federal aid office. And at that time, I was taking a course at NYU and Intergovernmental Relations. And I said to him, you know, I am taking a course in that sounds really interesting. And if anything opens up in that office, give me a call. I would be interested in pursuing it. And he did, and I went down there. It was a everybody said, "Do not do it. It is a dead-end job." That office was a, I do not, we do not have enough time to explain the city school system to you at that time, but it was a liaison. It was, it was a, really, a glorified clerk of being a liaison between the city school district and the, and the State Education Department for the compensatory education program. So, we reviewed the-the entitlement program applications that went up, they were not competitive then, and if there were anything, if there was anything in that application that the state wanted modified, we acted as liaison. That- I did that for about a year and a half, which brought us to 1975 and there was a- our suit, our superintendent. She was an old-line superintendent, and we were bringing in $400 million in competitive compensatory education at that time in the 1970s. IG: 47:25 That is huge. Yeah. AG: 47:28 And they- there was a there was a recognition that that as a central entity, as a school district, we were not making a great enough effort to go after some of the smaller competitive programs, some of the small competitive grant programs. And they wanted a wanted to form a unit which was sort of like an in-house consultant, grants consultant unit. There were 32 districts and a number of central divisions, and we were there to help them mount competitive applications get more money, as a matter of fact, that is what my dissertation turned out to be. And in terms of competitive- how the competitive grant system works, but in 1975 there was a devastating fiscal crisis in New York City. There was a hiring freeze. Nobody could hire anybody, and so this superintendent formed this little unit, and anybody who could make a paragraph out of two sentences got drafted. We were very small. We started out and we were, we were unsuccessful for three years, and only because she was unwilling to admit that she had made an error, that she let us continue. And then once we-we had some breakthrough, very significant grants that-that-that that unit took off, and we had a wonderful reputation, we- IG: 49:06 State from the state of New York grants or? AG: 49:06 Federal government, state in New York. And then later on, I had, I became the director of that unit, and we started reaching out. We had a new superintendent who new chancellor, who opened up. It was like opening up the windows and waiting the air in. And we started going after private foundation money. And I initiated and spearheaded that drive. I remember I was I got a meeting at it with a foundation executive, and she looked at me and she said, "We would never fund you. I was just so astonished that there was an actual human being who called me up." But before we got done, we were bringing in money from foundations. And I- as I was finishing my doctorate, I was interested in moving on into higher-higher I guess that that was perhaps a holdover from my experience at Binghamton, because all I ever wanted to do in my career was go back and be on a college campus, which I started it I started at Hofstra University, and I have been in and out of education, higher education, elementary and secondary, initially higher education. I had a few jobs in healthcare, long term care, and major medical centers. My foray into healthcare was-was everybody has at least one train wreck in their career. That was mine, and then I wound up back in, back at higher ed. IG: 49:09 Okay, that is, that is very interesting. So, I am just, you know, I am latching on to something that you said in the past, that you, you know, you are a child of Holocaust survivors. Did you connect with any other students at Harpur College who had the same background? AG: 49:09 I did not. IG: 49:09 You did not. You did not find anyone who was like that. AG: 49:09 Most of my friends were very much American. I grew up in a community where everybody was of that background. IG: 50:15 Yeah. AG: 50:15 I was 10 years old. My parents moved to the Bronx and to Riverdale, and I had, a I had one friend that I gravitated to who happened to live in my building, and his parents also- There was a number of families in that building with the same background, but at Binghamton, I did not connect with anybody, nor did I know of anybody who had that background, IG: 52:09 Because they were not first generation like you were. You are first generation American. AG: 52:16 I am. IG: 52:17 Yeah. AG: 52:17 I am. And most of the people that I knew there were not. IG: 52:21 Yeah, that is, that is very interesting. AG: 52:24 American first-first in my family, to go to college. IG: 52:28 Yeah. AG: 52:28 Yeah, immediate family. IG: 52:31 That is remarkable. What you know- what were the most important lessons you-you have learned in life that you would like to share with future Binghamton students who are listening to this recording years from now, what advice do you have to give to them. AG: 53:05 I think part of it is to is to be serious about your studies, but have fun while you are doing it. Again, I kind of relived part of my-my undergraduate experience, and also had experiences that I did not have through my daughter in her and her undergraduate time. Spent a lot of time visiting with her and going to, going to, certainly the first apparent Parents Weekend was-was a highlight, which my parents never did. They dropped me off and dropped me off, and anytime I came home, I made my own arrangements, whereas my daughter we were, we drove up, picked her. She had a car all four years, but there was never enough room in her car for her to come home by herself. So we were back and forth many times. And I cherish that, because I loved it. Matter of fact, when she went to school, I saw the piles building I left, I left home to go to Binghamton with a suitcase. As I saw her collecting the material that she was going to cut the mattress covers the all of the stuff and the bins and things, I said to my wife, I am buying a plane ticket. She said, ridiculous. I said, “I see what you are putting together. I am not fitting into this car. Oh, do not be ridiculous. That is, that is stupid. It is a waste of money.” I said “I bought a plane ticket,” and sure enough, there was. There was no room for me in this car. So I flew up to Portland Maine and rented a car because they drove up, we met and then. My daughter kept the car that she was driving up there and we drove back. But it was, it is just such a totally different experience today. So, somebody who graduated in 1967 I do not even know what I what advice I would have given to my daughter. IG: 55:14 I see, but I mean, you did give advice. Study very hard. Have fun. Yeah, I think, I think those lessons hold true from generation to generation. AG: 55:27 She was always-always a kind of a student who was intrinsically motivated. This is a kid who she graduated, summa cum laude, phi, beta, kappa, Colby College. That is quite an achievement. And as-as self-possessed a person at her age as I never was, and I look at her in awe, because the what she knows about herself and her, her, her goals and her-her ability to pursue those goals. It was not anything that I never picked that up until much, much, much later. IG: 56:11 Well, you had a different upbringing than your daughter. That is very different. AG: 56:16 I never wanted to be the parent my parents were. Yeah, as I think most people would admit to- I do not think you know, there is an old saying, first to become yourself, and then you become your parents. IG: 56:32 Yes-yes, oh, I have never heard that expression that is very good. Yeah. AG: 56:38 When you think about it, it is alarmingly accurate. IG: 56:44 So in which way have you become like your parents? AG: 56:49 I am more overprotective than I should be, and my wife counter balances that, because she is not. She is much more, you know, permissive in terms of what my daughter so there was good balance. You know, we try to keep her safe, but, but she has to learn her-her own. She has to find her own way in life, which-which my parents kind of never got. So she fell in love with Maine, and she decided that all she had, the credentials she could have, she could have pretty much done anything she wanted. And one of the, one of the, one of the things that she did she was on, she was a psychology major. She was on her way to applying for PhD in clinical psych. And I knew, I know the first one of the things that she did at Colby. Colby has what they call Jan plan. You have you take a full course in-in a January semester. You can either make your own class, you can take a standard course. So her first course in January, she became an EMT, and she eventually was one of the one among the leaders of the EMT squad on campus. She was an EMT on the COVID campus for her entire years, and she was going to go and the be a clinical psychologist and get a PhD. I always knew from watching her that she-she was the kind of person who needed to be on front lines, kind of a first responder, not really an academic, and she had her mentor arranged for an internship for her summers. And she had an internship. She went the first summer, and then the second summer, she came home. The middle of it, she said, I do not want to do this seriously my life, which is kind of a wonderful outcome for an internship, because she could have been down the road to a PhD, and then found out she did not really want to. I want to have that kind of an experience. IG: 59:02 She sounds like a girl who knows her mind. AG: 59:05 And she is now at the University of New England. She is pursuing a nursing degree. As I said, we were tearing her hair out because we thought she should go to medical school. She says, I do not want anything to do with being a doctor. That is not what I want. I want to be a nurse practitioner. So, she is in now, in a program, a 16-month program for students who already have a bachelor's in something else, and she will come out with a BSN and an RN, and then pursue a career in as a nurse practitioner. IG: 59:37 You know that Binghamton is starting up a PhD program in nursing. AG: 59:45 I can see her eventually going through. I will mention it to her. IG: 59:53 Yeah. Mention it. I think that this program is beginning in 2020. Third speaker 59:57 Yeah. And I think Binghamton has a. Very strong nursing program. AG: 1:00:02 Yeah, she did not want to follow in my footsteps, IG: 1:00:11 As most children do not. So, yeah. AG: 1:00:14 One of the more amusing things that we when we went to the Colby Information Center session, there was a very engaging student who presented, and he said, "My- I am a legacy student. My parents met at Colby." And he said, "First visit, I hated it. I wanted nothing to do with it, and they prevailed on me to come back." And he said, "My parents realized that they were giving me their experience, and when they went, what they did was they let me explore the campus on my own, and then I enrolled, and I loved it." So, it is again, it is question she-she eventually may seek that out, but, but she does not want to come back to New York. She loves Maine, and that was her criteria for-for a college campus, it had to be rural, it had to be a self-contained campus. It had to be a small liberal arts school need to be [inaudible] all of which she got. AG: 1:00:16 But it is close enough to New York. AG: 1:01:26 Yeah, and none of which I knew about myself at that time. IG: 1:01:30 Do you have any concluding remarks for us? AG: 1:01:35 In terms of-of what you are doing with-with the (19)60s? I do not know I would be interested in seeing how typical my experience is. And I guess some of these interviews, or all these interviews, are going to be available online some point. So, I would hope that you would send out the links for that so that we could, we could watch each other and well, I have not kept in touch with any of my classmates from those days, a few of them on LinkedIn and Facebook, perhaps, but I would like to see what their responses are. IG: 1:02:14 Right. Because in conducting these interviews, there are commonalities, you know, but-but I think that every-every experience is very different. So I think that you will be very gratified to hear the interviews of your classmates. AG: 1:02:33 At Binghamton--you cannot even it is so different that you cannot even call it the same school. Those of us who were there when I was this was an incipient, brand-new school. It was, and I was among, certainly, probably among the first students, first years where it was, where moved from Triple Cities College to the current campus at that time, it was, again, as I said, very small. So if you look at it today, there is, there is no comparison. It is, it is, it is like comparing something like Colby to Penn State, just a totally different [crosstalk]. Harpur College was a small liberal arts institution. Was nothing else. There was no graduate school. There was there was, it was, you know, it was Harpur College. That only happened after I was after I graduated. So that to make comparisons with those with the students of my day and the students who are there today, it is just too different a place. IG: 1:03:42 Well, that is why I think it is- yes, and you experienced the (19)60s, which students today are not. So, it was really, you were a pioneer in-in terms of, you know, being a one, one of the-the first graduating years from this institution. But you were also living in very different times, you know. And that is why we are conducting these interviews, and that is why we are creating this center, virtual center. AG: 1:04:18 If I had to do it over again, I would never, I would not go back to Binghamton. AG: 1:04:22 You would not? AG: 1:04:24 I would have not given my background. I found it; it was- IG: 1:04:28 Where would you go? AG: 1:04:30 -it was, and what I know about myself today. IG: 1:04:35 Yes, AG: 1:04:35 That I did not. I probably would have gone to school in Boston in a more urban environment Boston. And I did not have grades to get into, into the Ivy Leagues, but certainly a Boston University, a school that had much more of-of a social component that Harpur College that I would, I think that probably would have brought me out a little bit more than-than the experiences that I had where there was the sameness of the students in terms of their-their academic aspirations, there was that certainly was partying, but the social component was weak, and I probably could have benefited from a school that had a had a more structured, more extensive social component, not that I wanted to be in a fraternity or anything which was, which was not my thing. I do not know my daughter also we-we went to on our visits. We were we drove up to Colgate. She was one of the schools. She first thing you see when you drive to Colgate is Fraternity Row. And she looked at us, get me out of here. IG: 1:05:45 Yeah. AG: 1:05:46 The reason she chose Colby is because I had eliminated Greek life many years ago. IG: 1:05:58 Right. Well, that is all very interesting, and it is- we will be in touch with you and let you know about the progress of the website of the center and when your interviews will be digitized and put up online. AG: 1:06:19 Where are you at the beginning, the middle, the end. Terms of- IG: 1:06:23 We are I think we think- Third speaker 1:06:25 You are the ninth, the ninth informant that we interviewed so far. IG: 1:06:32 -to do another eight. It is just, Aynur, and me, we are going to do another eight in the next couple of weeks. So, I think that, you know, as soon as-as we are going along, we are going to put up these interviews, each are an hour an hour half long. AG: 1:06:52 Let me know as I sent you an email. I think coming from a development office, as-as given all my years of experience in development, I think that was a deterrent. I almost deleted your message. IG: 1:07:04 Well, what could I do? I mean, I was given this assignment, given my reporting background, and should I write, perhaps, that I am a reporter for, I was a reporter for Fortune Magazine, but I am not anymore. AG: 1:07:18 But I think, I think coming from a development office gives the wrong impression. IG: 1:07:23 I will let the Dean know. I will let the Dean know. I am also, you know, I will. I will, you know, I think that you have a very valid point. IG: 1:07:32 Okay, that-that is a very that is very good advice. I do not know how much I can do about it, but I agree with you. AG: 1:07:32 I have been a VET Development Professional one way or another my entire career, and maybe I picked up on it because, okay, it is coming from a development office. They want to this is a pre solicitation gimmick, and I really do not want any part of it. And then I researched the- I looked up the center online. I saw that it was a legitimate thing, connected with you on LinkedIn. I think yours, your email signature. It should not be coming from a development officer or just my two cents. AG: 1:07:38 Well, you have another title, and that is= AG: 1:07:53 Not here, not here, it is not here. I can just leave it out, maybe the Development Office part, AG: 1:08:25 but yeah, because it is not relevant, [crosstalk] development officer, IG: 1:08:32 Maybe it could come from you. All right, well, we will figure it out, but you have certainly given us food for thought, and thank you so much for a great interview. IG: 1:08:43 All right, thank you. I appreciate you reaching out. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Andrew Grant Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education administration; Harpur College – Alumni at Hebrew Union College; Harpur College – Alumni living in Suffolk County, Long Island Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grant, Andrew ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Andrew Grant is a retired Assistant VP for Institutional Advancement at Hebrew Union College in NYC. He worked as a disc jockey at WHRW-FM. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Andrew Grant.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-08-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 69:46 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/507981549ed7975e64bb7f91d5fb440c.mp3 5544de15fc704988f13922a3eb9e5574 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa0c602798e8bea6ea32b5c66446a70a.jpg 6825097cbca85f77b53c009858618a06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. David Graubard Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text David was an attorney at Kera & Graubard, specializing in bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, and debtor and creditor rights. He grew up in Monticello, New York. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David Graubard Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) DG: 00:01 And now it is recording. IG: 00:02 Oh, it is recording. Fantastic-fantastic. DG: 00:05 Okay. IG: 00:07 So finally, sorry about that. [laughs] Okay, so um, for the purposes of this interview um, please state your name, your age and where we are and what we are doing. DG: 00:23 Sure. I am David Graubard, 73 years old, in my office at 7118 Main Street in Flushing, New York. 11367, we are here to work on an all an oral history of the 1960s. IG: 00:38 Yes. DG: 00:40 Right? IG: 00:40 Yes. DG: 00:41 Okay. IG: 00:41 Okay, so please tell me, David, where you grew up? Where were you born? DG: 00:47 Born and grew up in Monticello, New York. IG: 00:48 Oh. Um- DG: 00:49 Halfway between Binghamton and New York. IG: 00:54 Yes, yes. I know where it is exactly. So, who were your parents are they- DG: 01:01 My parents were- IG: 01:02 Where did they come from? DG: 01:04 They- my- they were both- I went to the same high school that my both my parents went to. IG: 01:09 Oh, really in Monticello? DG: 01:10 In Monticello. Most of them were raised in Monticello. Cannot say born, but they were raised in months in the Monticello area. My mother was raised in the formative years in White Lake, New York, my father from Monticello itself. IG: 01:25 And were they, you know, second, first, third generation Americans? DG: 01:33 My father was a second generation American. Actually, were first generation American. He was born in the Bronx. My grandparents were born overseas. My mother was actually born overseas. She came very as a one-year-old. IG: 01:48 May I ask, Eastern Europe, or Germany or DG: 01:52 Eastern Europe. My mother was born in a place called Barandovich, which was in Poland, White Russia depends upon the year. IG: 02:00 Right. DG: 02:00 And my father's family came from Romania. IG: 02:06 Very interesting. So um, did your parents go to college? DG: 02:13 No. IG: 02:13 What was their what was their occupation? DG: 02:16 My father was a salesman. He grew up- interesting. He wanted to go to college to become an accountant. And my grandfather, may he rest in peace, said, you have the family business to go into, which was a wholesale food line and in Monticello. And that is what he did. And my mother was a homemaker and a good one at that, and also bookkeeper in my father's business. And she came, later on, she came a dental assistant, and she works- IG: 02:42 Also, in Monticello. They stayed there? DG: 02:43 Oh, yeah. IG: 02:44 Okay, so were- what were their expectations for you about going on to- DG: 02:51 They very much wanted. Heard their children to go to college. An older brother who went to Ithaca college on a dramatic scholarship. He did not graduate, but he got into the computer business way back when, when it was in the early (19)60s, when the late (19)60s, when it was first coming into vogue. He worked for Bank of America. And my sister graduated, graduated from [inaudible] college. And my uncle, may he rest in peace, was a lawyer, and they wanted to- I wanted to be a lawyer like he was. IG: 03:22 The uncle was in Monticello or in New York City? DG: 03:25 No-no, in New York City. IG: 03:27 So, you had frequent contact with New York City. DG: 03:32 Oh, yeah, yes. IG: 03:32 So, education was valued in your family. DG: 03:36 Very much so. IG: 03:37 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur rather than to City College or, you know, NYU- DG: 03:44 Uh, we had Harpur was I got a state scholarship, which covered the tuition. It was, you know, within a two-hour drive from my home in Monticello. That was it, basically. IG: 03:58 But why Harpur College rather than Albany or Buffalo? DG: 04:03 Harpur has a very, very good reputation, excellent reputation, and guys always fooled around you. If you slur that, people think you said Harvard, but [crosstalk] [laughter] IG: 04:18 [crosstalk] That is very funny. [crosstalk] DG: 04:21 Yes, that was really funny. IG: 04:24 So-so it had- and when did you graduate? Just for the purpose of the interview. DG: 04:29 1966. IG: 04:31 In 1966. So, the reputation of the College was established in the early (19)60s, or was it just- DG: 04:40 Very much so. IG: 04:41 Very much so. DG: 04:42 It was, it was, it was a pearl of the state system. IG: 04:44 And what was it known for Harpur College, before you went there? What-what-what-what did people say about it? It was a pearl of the state system. DG: 04:55 You got a good education. IG: 04:57 You got a good education. Did any of your friends from Monticello go there? Or did anybody that you know- DG: 05:04 Yes. IG: 05:05 -from New York City go there? DG: 05:06 Yes. IG: 05:06 So, you had friends who went there. DG: 05:07 Yes. I had a classmate, Robert Ethel, who went there. We roomed together- IG: 05:11 Uh huh. DG: 05:11 -for a year. IG: 05:12 from Monticello. DG: 05:13 Yes. IG: 05:13 Okay, good. So, when you first- DG: 05:15 [crosstalk] three rooms, we were two of the three. IG: 05:18 Oh. So-so when you first arrived to Binghamton, what was your impression that was there such a dramatic difference between Monticello and Binghamton? DG: 05:30 Well, now this, Binghamton was a city. Was still small townish. IG: 05:34 Yeah. DG: 05:35 But the college itself was off, you know, was investor offset, not offset, set off the highway, and it was a unit by itself. It was not within the city like you had NYU in the city. Was part of the New York City. IG: 05:49 Yes. DG: 05:49 This was a totally, total unit by itself. IG: 05:52 Yeah. DG: 05:53 That was a beautiful place. IG: 05:55 It was a beautiful place. Um, and so maybe, what was your first impression when you arrived there? Do you remember what it looked like to you? DG: 06:06 Remember it looked like. Yes. IG: 06:08 Yeah. So, describe that a little bit to us. DG: 06:10 [inaudible] came in there was the-the quad that they called it because they had the student center was in one place, and the science of science labs were off to the science was off to the right, as you looked at it. And then they had the- there was a there was a roadway that the left were all the dormitories and the luncheon hall. That is what I remember about the quad. And it had that walkway on top then, until you came down into the quad. DG: 06:44 So, it struck you as a beautiful place. DG: 06:49 Yes, physically, very beautiful. IG: 06:52 So um, just tell us you know about your early experience of the academics there. Did that make an impression on you? DG: 07:05 I think academics were very good. IG: 07:07 Very good. So, tell us a little bit more elaborate on that. What classes do you remember? Um- DG: 07:14 I can tell you. I will give you one, one thing that stands out in my mind. Okay, we took Spanish. Those who took- I took Spanish were the ones Spanish I and II, and there was a fellow there. I will not use a name, but he had, apparently, this is his third or fourth time taking this Spanish class, and he needed it to graduate. And he was a senior. IG: 07:35 Yeah. DG: 07:36 -and the professor, doctor, if I remember his name. I could picture his face. Just cannot remember his name. He had--called Rahman this on this, this senior, and when he-he we saw the test booklet of this particular student on this, on his desk after the after the exams, and it was a D with 19 minuses. And I do not think he counted minuses. I think he just gave him a D and then put the string of minuses so they could graduate. IG: 08:14 So, it was a generous place. DG: 08:16 Yeah, it was. IG: 08:17 It was academically a generous place. But it was- DG: 08:19 I mean, that is it was this particular thing, you know, I remember we had Melvin Shefttz. We had- was a very-very tough-tough history teacher, but it was very good. IG: 08:31 American history? DG: 08:33 No, world history. IG: 08:34 World history. DG: 08:35 World history and he gave me back a paper, and I remember it was I am sure it was a B minus or B plus. But he said to me, the comment was, you handled some very difficult material quite well, something along those lines. Think I still have that paper. I kept two or three to my papers that were interesting. IG: 08:58 Was that on your freshman or what- DG: 09:00 Freshman year. IG: 09:01 Freshman year, so you were encouraged in your academic. DG: 09:05 Yes, yeah. IG: 09:05 Did you know what you wanted to study? DG: 09:09 Yeah, I know I wanted to study--I loved American history. IG: 09:12 Yes. DG: 09:12 And I came to the point where I had to decide whether to do graduate work in American history or go to law school. I chose going to law school, which I probably regretted many years later. I really loved American history and, but I thought, but then, after my first year, they went to the trimester system. So, we were- IG: 09:30 After your first year. DG: 09:31 Yeah, after first year. So, we were a little thrown off on calendar wise, but nevertheless, we completed our academic studies within the trimester system. IG: 09:42 So um, just tell me a little- let us stay on the topic of academics and just tell us more about the faculty that made an impression on you, on your fellow classmates. DG: 09:55 Well, for American history, we had, we had one professor who took several times, whose name escapes me now, but yeah, that was the days of when you did your papers. He insisted that footnotes at the bottom of each page, and you had [inaudible] and any student because I typed the type, typing, I got back a paper from him in colonial history, and there was an A and some of the papers were wrinkled, and the only comment he made was, my apologies for the tea stains on your paper. IG: 10:28 Oh. DG: 10:28 I still have that one. IG: 10:31 Yeah, you still have that one. DG: 10:32 I still have that one. And, but I had a friend who was American, who was a history who was a history major, and he managed to avoid taking that professor, I remember, but it was interesting because he did. He- because that professor took- did the period histories mainly colonial and-and civil war, but he [inaudible] IG: 10:56 So, did you find the classes stimulating? DG: 11:01 Yes, yeah [crosstalk] IG: 11:02 You have discussions? DG: 11:03 I think the class were very good. And I remember it took- I had for history [inaudible] I had Professor, Colonel House [Albert House]. I remember that-that. And one thing he taught me, he says, he says, 'When you are middle of a project and you have to go to supper, or you are going to lunch or you have to do something else," he says, "Do not say, in your mind, wait until I get the end of something. Stop where you are. It will be much easier to pick it up and remember where you are we were from that point and go forward if you middle of something." And I have used that- I have used that quite-quite successfully in my professional career. You do legal research when they would have to go somewhere, stop in the middle of something. It is easier to pick up. IG: 11:44 It is easier to pick up than- DG: 11:46 Start and then stop and going to [crosstalk] IG: 11:48 It down to some symbol conclusion, or? DG: 11:52 Let us say, at the end attempt in the middle of a case, reading something. And instead of going to the end of the case, if I had to, have to go somewhere. I will stop there. I will come back, come back to it. I am coming back in the middle of something. It is much easier to pick up than they have said, "Oh, at the end of that case-" [crosstalk] IG: 12:08 How do you remember that where you left off? [crosstalk] Okay, that is very easy. Um, so describe your classmates. Where do you think that the majority, I know that the majority were from Long Island and New York City, and so who were, who were your friends at Harpur? Did you gravitate more to the people from New York City or from upstate? Did it make a difference? DG: 12:39 Well, I was, I was a member of the Adelphi men's club, so I had friends there. IG: 12:44 Yeah. DG: 12:44 Where I would say, mostly from the city, but there were from upstate, upstate as well. Not as many, but. IG: 12:52 Not as many. Do you, do you- did you feel any cultural differences because you were really straddling [crosstalk] DG: 13:01 Guys told me, "Graubard, we really consider you [inaudible] city guy." IG: 13:05 Yeah, because- DG: 13:07 I spent a lot of time in the city. DG: 13:09 My grandparents lived in Crown Heights, spent a lot of time as children. IG: 13:12 Exactly. IG: 13:12 So-so you were really comfortable in both cultures. DG: 13:16 Yeah. IG: 13:16 Do you feel that there were cultural differences between the- you know, students from the New York metro area versus the upstate students? DG: 13:27 [crosstalk] differences there were. IG: 13:29 And were these differences bridged, you know and- DG: 13:32 Yeah, I think there were guys who, guys who started, you know, going-going-going out with girls who had-had friends in, in the social clubs there. IG: 13:41 Yeah. DG: 13:42 That the-the Upstate downstate did not. IG: 13:44 Right. So, what did you do in this Adelphi club? What did you- DG: 13:48 It is just a matter of guys, yeah, they had social clubs there because they did not allow fraternities- IG: 13:55 Yeah. DG: 13:55 So, they allowed social clubs. So, it was- IG: 14:01 What did you do? DG: 14:03 I just had friends there. But not that- to me it was not a big deal. IG: 14:07 It was not a big deal. Where did you meet? At the Student Union? DG: 14:11 In the Student Union. IG: 14:14 So, who were your, you know this, this was a time of the, you know, the beginning of great change in America. And, you know, how did you really, how alive were you to the events outside of [crosstalk] So tell us about that. DG: 14:38 Well, being of draft age. It was Vietnam War. I remember at one point they offered they offered some in the geology department. They offered a course, a new course, aerial photography, which nobody wanted to take. They wanted to have it on their record- the draft board. IG: 14:57 That is very interesting. DG: 14:58 Yeah, I remember it, specifically. IG: 15:01 So, did you feel that the faculty sort of encouraged, or did it protect its students? Do you feel against being drafted to- DG: 15:13 I think there was one professor I remember who was willing to give, who's suddenly became more lenient with giving out A's. I think I remember that. IG: 15:26 Yeah. DG: 15:26 One-one particular problem, his name. I remember who he was, but I remember some discussion on that-that he was and that was to keep-keep students in school. IG: 15:37 Yeah, so-so. Oh, um, you know, so-so there was this encourage, there was, you know, a desire to protect, maybe this [crosstalk] DG: 15:50 I think [crosstalk] from that one professor. IG: 15:53 From that one professor. Did you feel that a lot of your classmates had the intention of going on with their study to avoid the war or? DG: 16:04 No-no, I think it was an academic- it was a state school was an academic place, so that most people intended to go on to further professional studies. IG: 16:13 Anyway. DG: 16:14 Yeah. IG: 16:14 Anyway. DG: 16:15 Yes. IG: 16:17 So, when you discuss the Vietnam War with your friends, what kind of things did you say, apart from being afraid of- DG: 16:24 You know, the most thing, it is terrible- the most thing I can remember is, you know, guys making comments like, "Okay, so I will take my master’s at Ho Chi Minh, university," or "University of Phnom Penh, " "Are you going next year to University of Phnom Penh? It became, not the joke, but- IG: 16:46 Yeah. DG: 16:47 -it was one way to alleviate the seriousness of the situation. IG: 16:51 What other ways did you alleviate the seriousness of the situation? DG: 16:54 I do not think there was any other way. I mean, I guess I was a little had a little less tension because my where I lived, there were a lot of guys who came out of high school and volunteered so that the quotas and my draft board were-were-were-were were filled up. They protected me a little bit more. IG: 17:17 Yeah. So, you know, but you do not remember any political discussions. Did you- do you remember whether, you know- DG: 17:29 Oh, listen, there were, there were a lot of, there was a lot, there were a lot of peaceniks, yeah, there were a lot of peaceniks on the campus. A lot of the peaceniks on the campus, you know, and they, and they had made banners, and they had sat ins and demonstrations. IG: 17:43 Tell me a little bit about that. DG: 17:45 Against-against the war. IG: 17:47 Yeah. So where did they sit in and do they go? DG: 17:51 They would have us not, not to obstruct. But you know, they were demonstration in around the campus. IG: 17:57 Around the campus, around the campus, and was this covered by the student papers or by local papers? DG: 18:06 Yeah-yeah. and what about the [crosstalk] of this covered by students, certainly by student papers. IG: 18:10 Did anybody march on Washington or- DG: 18:13 I think there were people. IG: 18:15 There were. So, did you participate in any of this? DG: 18:19 No. IG: 18:21 No. Why not? DG: 18:24 Because I was crazy. It was not for the war, but it certainly was. I thought it was something that unfortunately had to be done. It is unfortunate we had to get that with the way we got into it, with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and- IG: 18:35 Right. DG: 18:36 They expanded it. DG: 18:37 And that it turned to be a bog. It was me, a bogged down affair. IG: 18:37 Right. DG: 18:42 But it was, it was a sad situation, but, yeah, I guess I believed in the government and-and that is the thing that would was not from Harpur, but the thing that affected me most was at home. There was a fellow at the end of my block who wins in the army, and he came back, who was a changed person, and he would not go anywhere where his back was not against the wall. Or if he went into the restaurant, he made sure that he sat in a booth with his back again, and he was always protecting his back. IG: 19:15 You knew him after the war. Or when did he come back? DG: 19:19 He was younger than me, but I saw, I saw. IG: 19:22 What, when? During your college years. DG: 19:24 Yeah-yeah. IG: 19:25 What kind of impact did that have on you? DG: 19:28 It just brought home the reality of the-the unfortunate consequences of the war. IG: 19:40 Of the war. But it did not change your mind about America's involvement in the war. DG: 19:44 Not too much. I thought it was, I feel it was sad the way they ended, you know, that they could not come out, that they got bogged down and they could not it was, it was, it was, to me, it ended to be a useless event. IG: 19:58 A useless war. DG: 20:00 A useless war. IG: 20:01 But when did you realize that it was a useless? DG: 20:04 Halfway through. IG: 20:05 Halfway through. So, what year? Tell- remind me, were you in college or? DG: 20:12 I might have been in law school. IG: 20:13 In law school. Where did you go to law school? DG: 20:16 George Washington University Law school. IG: 20:18 So, and was that right after graduating from Harpur? DG: 20:23 Yes. IG: 20:24 So, what- how did you decide on that? Did you have encouragement from your direction- from your professors, or who advised you? DG: 20:33 No-no, I- we had to go to GW or? IG: 20:33 Yeah. DG: 20:35 Well, I applied to, I think eight law schools, got into four of them. I thought GW was the best. IG: 20:42 I see. I see. Did you have guidance from your professors or not much? DG: 20:47 I do not think much. IG: 20:53 What other courses did you take? You taught you took history courses, you know- DG: 20:59 Social science. IG: 20:59 -social studies, science. DG: 21:03 The one required science course, and then never walked into the science building after that. IG: 21:12 Any literature or language courses? DG: 21:15 English, literature, I remember a language of Spanish. I took two courses in Spanish. IG: 21:20 Do you feel that- DG: 21:21 And also, they introduced- Dr. Levin started a Hebrew course and Arabic course. It took Hebrew courses. IG: 21:29 When was it- there was a Semitic languages department. DG: 21:34 He started it. IG: 21:35 He started it. Uh- DG: 21:38 A language lab that they tested. And [crosstalk] IG: 21:44 I remember language lab. DG: 21:45 -tested with Dr. Levin. We took it seriously. Everyone else, it was a joke. IG: 21:51 Do you feel that you got a well-rounded education, or was there something lacking? DG: 21:56 No well rounded. IG: 21:59 How did that influence the future of your life, of your intellectual career? DG: 22:05 It broadened my horizons on how to approach things. IG: 22:13 Okay, so you know, how do you think- well, how do you think that Harper prepared you for your future career? DG: 22:22 A good academic basis. IG: 22:25 Uh, huh. Okay. So, we talked a little bit about the Vietnam War, and we talked a little bit about your involvement. You were not involved in any student activism? DG: 22:41 No. IG: 22:41 Really. Um, but around you, was there anything- what you know were, was there student activism about, you know, the civil rights movement? That was- DG: 22:53 Yeah, they, yeah, they had a [crosstalk] The Civil Rights was big at the time, and there was I mean, there were people who were active, who were active in the civil rights movement, I think. IG: 23:10 And how did that manifest? Was it on campus, or did they go to Washington? DG: 23:15 Both-both. I think, I think some guys might have gotten involved in the South. I am not sure. But, I mean, they had clubs, they had groups like that, that were [crosstalk] IG: 23:17 Was this sort of, you know, part of the conversation even, did it reach your circles? DG: 23:31 I do not think so. IG: 23:32 No, not so much. Were there any students of, you know, who were not from New York City and essentially white middle class, you know or upstate. Were there any people, any students of color or international? DG: 23:48 Yes. IG: 23:49 At the time? DG: 23:50 Yes. IG: 23:50 You remember? DG: 23:52 I remember one fellow from Nairobi, [hos phone rings] and he lost his-his hat in the winter. [he is talking on the phone] Hello. Yeah, okay, I am in the meeting now on and then have to go Lauren. So, I will be back at about 11:45 but then I have [inaudible] with my grandson, so I will have to speak to you about, you know, 12:30 or so. Okay, all right, okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. IG: 24:27 Okay-okay, so we were talking about a student from Nairobi. DG: 24:33 Yes, he was a short fellow, and he lost his-his hat. He had a hat with flaps, and I remember he drew a picture of it; he put his name underneath it, and he put lost, and he put it on the board. IG: 24:43 Was it ever found? DG: 24:48 So, I remember seeing it on the board IG: 24:51 Was-was, you know, you-you had traveled to New York City a lot. So, you know, seeing people of international, of different backgrounds [crosstalk] DG: 25:01 -was that much so also. IG: 25:03 You had that in Monticello, because Monticello was a summer resort, right? DG: 25:08 Summer resort, a lot of transients came through the and that was they opened up the racetrack, also [crosstalk] IG: 25:14 I see, I see. So-so that was not- um, but there were not any international or students of, you know, color, any Hispanic students that you remember? DG: 25:28 [inaudible] IG: 25:29 Yeah, no-no, not really. DG: 25:32 Hispanic? IG: 25:33 Hispanic, Black. DG: 25:37 Black, a few, a few. IG: 25:38 A few. DG: 25:38 Yeah. IG: 25:39 Yeah. DG: 25:40 But it is [inaudible] than I do not remember. IG: 25:43 No, okay, so did they, did they- did you have, you know, occasions to sort of mix as a larger group, or did you just stay in the class, you know. DG: 25:57 In the classes, and in the and in the student-student lounge, the cafeteria, not the dining hall, but the cafeteria in the in the Student Union. People are always getting together. IG: 26:12 How about, you know, women's rights, that probably was too early, [crosstalk] right? Do you remember that expectations for women at Harpur were different than they were for men? Were um- DG: 26:31 Nothing, no, nothing. I recall. IG: 26:32 Not that they were, you know, treated differently, necessarily, but were the women on campus? Did they aspire to the same sort of, you know, careers that- DG: 26:43 I think there was [inaudible]. I think there was no difference. IG: 26:46 No difference. DG: 26:47 There were a lot, here were a lot of women there. They were aspiring to the same thing the men were [crosstalk] IG: 26:47 They wanted to become lawyer [crosstalk] DG: 26:49 -education, yes, [inaudible] education. And professionals, yeah. IG: 26:57 And professionals. Okay, so, you know, tell us a little bit about your free time, free time on campus was- do you think that Harpur was a party school? DG: 27:11 I would not say it was a party- no, not a party school. I mean, there were, you know, the guys in geology, there was always a trip, a field trip. IG: 27:23 Right. DG: 27:24 You know and that was a that was always a big joke, because, you know, guys were buying beer, and that was always looked at as a as a fun thing to do, as opposed to an educational trip. IG: 27:33 Right. But you did not, you know, I mean, how did you spend your time socializing? You know, were there- did you just keep to your group of boys? DG: 27:45 They had- there were social events on campus. IG: 27:49 Like what? Describe for- DG: 27:52 I think, full weekend, spring weekend, [crosstalk] IG: 27:55 Yeah. So, what happened? I, you know, tell us. DG: 27:59 I was it was not I was not a big social guy. IG: 28:02 You were not a big- so you never attended any social events. DG: 28:05 I cannot remember most of what they were. But things changed at the end too. Trimester had a big effect on some of this stuff, I thin., IG: 28:13 Tell us about that. DG: 28:14 Well, through the calendars of Harpur were off the calendars of other college., IG: 28:19 Right. DG: 28:20 So, people who would want to go somewhere else, you know, find it difficult to synchronize, except-except for Thanksgiving. And for instance, we have right and then we weekend, those were the same all over. IG: 28:32 So-so these the trimester had a disruptive effect on your social life. DG: 28:37 I mean, when you if you had to interact with people, friends at other schools, in that in that manner. IG: 28:42 I see, I see. DG: 28:43 Internally, it was, you know, there was no difference. IG: 28:46 So, you know, after studying, did you spend time in your dorm room, or did you go to student union? Where would you spend your free time, even in your first year, you know. DG: 29:02 [inaudible] mostly just, I think, just staying the room sang about hanging around the student union. IG: 29:08 Did you date girls? DG: 29:10 Yes. IG: 29:10 Yeah. So, tell us, tell us, where would you go on these dates? Did you have a car? DG: 29:15 No, oh, I not, no, not the first year. Wait a minute. No, not the first I had the older Amber. I do not remember if I had that the first year. IG: 29:30 Well, maybe the second year you had a car. So-so, okay, so where would you go with your dates? DG: 29:37 There were not a lot of them. IG: 29:38 Yeah. laughs] DG: 29:39 For sure. That is for sure. There were not a lot of them. There were movies in Binghamton, Vestal. IG: 29:46 Yeah. So, you would go to a movie. Were there any cafeterias or restaurants that you would go to afterwards? Just to the movies? DG: 29:54 I did not do a lot of dating there. Anything was mostly geared towards, if the- towards events on campus [crosstalk] weekend. IG: 30:03 So, there were events on campus for students, like the whole, you know, I mean, but that is just once a year, right? DG: 30:10 Yeah, yeah. IG: 30:15 Were you were- what about the curfews? You know, a lot It has been said about the curfews for girls. DG: 30:23 You tell people, these days, students these days, you know, tell, I have. Tell my-my granddaughter is of college age now, and we talked about my-my wife tells she went to Stonehill College. And every single school in the country had curfews for women. You know, you said that you said it to girls now, and they look like you are crazy. IG: 30:46 Yeah, and the curfews were earlier than curfews for- DG: 30:50 Yeah, curfews were, I do not know if the men had curfews. I think that was when upon the contention. But I think the girl, I think the girls like the curfews. I really do, I think, because, again, it may, it gave them an excuse for being, being. IG: 31:10 They liked it. DG: 31:11 I think the girls liked it. IG: 31:16 That is very interesting, actually. DG: 31:18 During the week there was, I forgot what was, it was eight o'clock in the weekend, I think was 11 o'clock, maybe midnight. IG: 31:26 Would you go? How frequently did you go home during the semester? DG: 31:31 I went home for the Jewish holidays. I went home for if something happened. It was occurred in the family, a family event, it was easy to get home. So of course, before all the regular recognized weekend, holiday period., IG: 31:47 Right. Did you have anything like Hillel on campus? DG: 31:51 There was, there was a Hillel, yes, there was a Hillel. And I was a member of the Hillel and that was not, there was not a religious aspect to it. There was more social at that point. IG: 32:08 So, you know, where during the trimester period you had, you know, big breaks in the summertime, did you work? DG: 32:18 Yes. IG: 32:19 Did you pay for your school. DG: 32:21 Yes. IG: 32:21 Yourself. That is very impressive. So, what type of jobs did you have during this summer? And where were these jobs? DG: 32:28 Well, for two summers, I worked, I drove a bread truck for stomas bread, which is a bread company in the city, and in the summer there a lot of their customer base moved to the mountains. So, they had five routes in the mountains of two summers, I drove there. Oh, and then they worked in the men's store in Monticello, Jack brands men. So, he had the, he had the men's store there, and then the men's store at the Concord Hotel. Oh, so I worked in the two summers. I worked at the in the men's store in Monticello. IG: 33:10 Have you stayed in touch with any of your classmates from Harpur? DG: 33:17 Yes, one, particularly Martin Kera and you know, I became, became law partners after several years. IG: 33:22 Oh, wow. DG: 33:23 And to this day, to this day, we are in touch because we still have a common business interest. IG: 33:30 That is right, that is right. I think I reached out to him as well. So, were there any faculty that you stayed in touch with? IG: 33:40 How do you think your fellow classmates would remember you from that period? What would they how would they describe you? DG: 33:40 No. DG: 33:54 The Upstate Jewish boy, I guess you know. IG: 34:02 What does that mean, what does that mean? DG: 34:06 I was upstate, you know, came from Monticello. A lot of them knew Monticello had been up there in the mountains for the summers, worked in the summers. IG: 34:15 Okay, so that is one description. But would they have said that you are industrious, that you are funny, that you are the class clown. What? How [crosstalk] DG: 34:23 I think it is just maybe a nice guy. IG: 34:25 A nice guy. DG: 34:26 Always help, trying to help people. IG: 34:31 Any-any stories about how you help your classmates? DG: 34:33 One-one in particular, I do remember, and I tell my wife [crosstalk] there were guys who took, who would not take a Tuesday night class. In this in the in the spring, in the autumn semester, because they did not want that. They wanted to leave early for Thanksgiving vacation. I had a Tuesday night class, and I had an old Rambler, 1962 Rambler had to push button drive. And this was my-my, probably my sophomore year, I think. And you know these people around who would give rides home, and it was a bitterly-bitterly cold night, really cold. There was snow on the ground, and it was very-very cold by wind chill was probably close to zero, very cool. And I- the girl Beth, I forgot her last names. [inaudible] cut the back road. She was [inaudible] arriving. The [inaudible] was feeling a ride. We had a full car, I think Irene and a young couple with a baby who were going to Newburgh, so the car was full, and it was freezing cold, and it took a long time I let the car warm up even before I would let that baby in the car. So, it took a while, but we packed in. We all came to my house, and then they made calls as to where there were no cell phones in those days, as to people really picked them up at particular times. And my parents made sure they had something hot to drink, something to eat, until they all got picked up from where we were. IG: 34:34 That is very nice. So, um- DG: 35:20 Oh, one other time. IG: 35:48 Yes please. DG: 35:51 [crosstalk] Ronald Nathan, he was okay, and he called me in a panic that he-he had to do, finish off his social- a paper for a course, and he let it go to the last minute. "What should he do?" So, I typed with, if he, if he, if he wrote it out, could I type it right? I said, "I will be over in the minute." I was over this room with my typewriter. I sat down, I looked him and said, "Talk." He talked his paper. I said, “What are you doing?” I said, “You talk. I am going to type right." We did his paper that night, the whole time we finished, but he talked, and I typed. We got it done. IG: 36:43 That is fantastic. And you spend the whole night? DG: 36:46 Probably most of the night, doing that. IG: 36:48 until [crosstalk] DG: 36:50 Three in the ming. IG: 36:51 "That is great. Did you help organize his thinking? DG: 36:55 No. I just- IG: 36:55 You just typed. DG: 36:56 I just typed. IG: 36:58 Well, that is, that is still, that is a big help. What did you think? What lessons did you learn from this time in your life at Harpur College? I mean, you were at a very formative period, you know, then you stepped out into the adult world in the- in law school, I would think, in a different state and but so how did this form you? What were some of the lessons that you learned from this period? DG: 37:29 Well, that there are it just it built on what I learned in Monticello that went to public high school, that there were a lot of different people this world that have views and thoughts different than you, and you have to get along with them, and that you can build on your own strengths. I was on the swimming team, and I was not a stupid swimmer, and I remember judge-judge, trying to think the first, the first, the freshman year the coach, Dennis. Last name was Dennis, and he said, "You want to learn to dive?" I said, "Okay," so do it. I was not great at anything, but so he would try and say, when you, when you, when you went to a swimming meet, you had five required dives and then one optional. And they took the optional by putting the five categories in a hat, and they picked one out, and that became the optional dive. So, he, you know, we were not a big athletic school, and we did not go the big athletic schools. St Bonaventure was about the biggest name around from that we went. And he would always say, talk to the other coach and say, you know, you know, "Can we fix the optical dive at the at the easy one going forward?" So, some judges said, "Fine," it was okay. And I remember, one said "No." And I remember St. Bonaventure, the swimming pool was in, was in a downstairs area where the ceiling was, I think, lower than this. When you came off the board, you had to push your hands off the top in order to do certain dives. It was crazy, but-but I remember one particular time he said to me, he says, "David. "He said, "I am putting you in the individual medley." I said, "You know, I cannot." He said, "There were," he said "They are only put there were usually four swimmers, two from each side, and three got points. The fourth one got nothing. He said, "They only have one swimmer in the I am individual middling." He says, "All you have to do is finish and you get third place." He was, "Just finished," and it was, I remember, it was butter, back, breast, free. That was how they ran the butterfly stroke, breaststroke, the backstroke. And I could not do the backstroke to save myself, but I did, and it was, it was fun, but I remember, I swear I must have finished about three minutes after everybody, the second guy. IG: 39:54 So, what did that particular episode teach you? Did- DG: 40:01 Just perseverance. IG: 40:02 Perseverance-perseverance. So you know, and you know, for posterity, for the you know, future students and others listening-listening to these tapes, what do you think what-what were the most important lessons that you have learned in your life that you would like to share with these students who are considering Binghamton or who are at Binghamton? And maybe- DG: 40:37 I take a very different- I bring a very different perspective. I came from a very strong Jewish background, and I leaned more towards orthodoxy halfway through and I was going to transfer out, and things did not work. It just did not. And so that the last two years at Harpur, I restrict myself to a lot of things in within the Jewish religion that [inaudible] accomplish, such as not going out Friday night. I had a connection with Rabbi Bernard Brazil, who was the author the rabbi orthodox jewel in Binghamton. I told her son, he got me teach a Sunday school class there for a couple of years, which I did, and-and I connect with some of the people in the neighborhood who were, who were helpful to me. And so, I had a different ask- a different view of college the last two years that a lot most students that did not have. IG: 41:38 But that is wonderful. I mean, you really had a very full life and maybe a more adult life because you were so involved in the community- DG: 41:51 Yeah-yeah, I was. IG: 41:52 -in-in really ministering to this community. Could you talk a little bit more about this? Because this is very unusual, I think. DG: 42:01 Well, it became my own personal journey back to orthodox roots. And so, you know, I did not go out Friday night. I was a dorm counselor. If I had to be on duty on Friday night, I sat and I tried not to do things that would infringe. I restricted my diet there, even in the mess hall, very and supplemented it with my own food for cautious reasons. And just geared myself to going to guiding my life in the future based upon these religious attendance that became more important to me as I went along. IG: 42:46 And what- why do you think that that happened midway during your undergraduate career? What happened in your thinking? DG: 42:55 My brother got married, and he was not very you know, he did not have any religious influence. Had very little religious influence in his life. And I said to myself, I went to, went to the wedding in the Bronx. He said, "David, you can get married one day also." And, you know, thinking of my grandparents and their- my grandfather, Rabbi the [inaudible], who's a, I mean, who that is a ritual slaughter of animals. And I said, “You know what? They are really right. That is where I have to go,” and I did. IG: 43:31 So that is a very- so-so what? What would you tell these young people listening to your interview. What-what is important about that experience? DG: 43:45 Experience is that for me, as an Orthodox Jew religion, became a very paramount issue, and had to deal with it in the time constraints. I had a Harpur, and I did to the best-best I could. And then once I left and went to law school, I was able to broaden my religious life because I had a lot more freedom as to, as to where I was living, what I was eating, what I was doing. IG: 44:14 So do you think that the message might be, you know, sort of stick to your guns and do what you feel is important. DG: 44:22 That is if you want, if you want to generate, if you want to generalize it, yes, that would be a-a generalized comment. IG: 44:31 Where did you meet your wife? DG: 44:34 In synagogue in Washington, DC. IG: 44:36 Okay, that it was not at Harpur. DG: 44:38 Right. IG: 44:40 Have any of your children or grandchildren considered Harp- Binghamton? DG: 44:48 No, not in their scope. IG: 44:52 No, because it is- they are a different generation. DG: 44:54 Yeah, my three girls, my three girls, two went Stonehill College. One went to Queens. College. All went to seminary in Israel for a year. IG: 45:02 Oh, wow. IG: 45:02 Any of them- DG: 45:04 They are all married, and they are all really- IG: 45:07 Any rabbis in your family? DG: 45:10 I have two sons and [inaudible] the rabbi. IG: 45:12 Oh, wow-wow. DG: 45:12 Yeah, but-but they are not pulpit robbers. They are education rabbis. One is, one is head of a school in California, Los Angeles, the other is Dean of Students at Magen and David [Magen David Yeshivah School], which is a Sephardic school in Brooklyn. IG: 45:26 Wow. Well, do you have this is- it is, it is really a very interesting interview, and I think that we have gotten a very different perspective on Harpur College, you know, experience during the (19)60s, and anything that I have heard from other- DG: 45:48 I will tell you the-the one of the greatest things about Harpur College was not the college itself but was it stepping on the coat cement ceremony. IG: 45:58 Tell us about that [laughs] DG: 45:59 Because it was just wonderful. They had and Richie Walters, you know, and I, you know, to get up there to understand how they did things. Richie got up and he said, you know, we have this, whatever was that great Greek-Greek poet Testiclēs, and that is how that kind of stuff that they were. But it was, it was, it was a fun ceremony. It was the official end of winter, the beginning of spring. They stepped on the one with the coat they brought up ceremoniously up the stairs outside the Student Union, and they put it down. And Kestrel came over, and he stood up, you guys, very seriously, stepped on the coat. You look back and-and, yeah, people were laughing. It was fun, but it was nice. It was, it was a good hearted, fun thing to do that did not step on anyone's toes. You know, it was not, was not race oriented, it was not religion oriented. It was just something that someone thought of and carried out. IG: 46:56 And kind of brought unity to [crosstalk] DG: 47:01 Oh, everybody liked it. I you know the faculty too, though everyone, there was not anyone who did not like it. IG: 47:08 Yeah. Are there any concluding remarks that you have? Do you want to share anything? DG: 47:18 I can only say that there were turbulent times in the (19)60s. And, you know, we, as far as I know, we all survived. There were guys at Harpur, and I look back now, and there are people who took different directions, because some kind, some guy, some guys could handle being away, and some guys could not. Some guys could handle a breakup with a girl more than others. And was, there were turbulent times, you know, in the whole country, and Harpur was, was part of it. IG: 47:54 But just-just you mentioned something that, you know, some, some guys could handle breakups and these difficulties, others could not. You know, were there any support systems for this outside of, you know, maybe that that is why, you- DG: 48:15 I say that because I remember one particular guy, and I think he eventually, I do not think he graduated. I think he had difficult times. Eventually left school. I remember one situation, and he was having a very difficult time, because he was going out with a girl, and something happened, they broke up and-and he took a very-very difficult, very poorly. But, you know, there was no, was no, you know, support system. You know, some would say, of course, see the school psychologist. I guess there were some people. I do not think they had a system at that point, but there were people who felt closer to me, to some professors that they could talk to on a friendly basis, as opposed to academic basis. IG: 49:04 I see, I see. And maybe they did not have, they did not think of, you know, religion as a support system. Maybe. So- I David, unless you have some, some other gem that you want to share with us. I thank you so much- DG: 49:24 One thing I do remember Professor, I think his name was Roma. He had a baby face-face, yeah. And he was like a philosophy- philosophy professor, and he looked so young. And one thing he said in class was, you know there was some guys who did something about running, I do not know a woman's garment at the flagpole, but not on, not on campus. I think off campus somewhere. And he said, "Now, if someone like me did it, you know, they throw the book on them, but if the students do it is a prank." IG: 49:53 [laughs] DG: 49:53 Yeah. So, I will just leave my closing remarks are. Uh, make the best of your, of your, of your, of your education. Live with your convictions and go forward. IG: 50:08 Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with M. David Graubard Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Graubard, M. David ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David was an attorney at Kera & Graubard, specializing in bankruptcy, insolvency, Chapter 11, and debtor and creditor rights. He grew up in Monticello, New York. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Graubard.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 50:12 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5f0d2536cd6c97ed585fdfc720d1554b.jpg d05aef956d0bbc4c71bbbec2a798091b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4de7ec0cb2578764d004a4f6d0da03bb.mp3 92506b598c3aff28cc234eb815113049 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrienne W. Weissman Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Adrienne is a retired New York City school teacher. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Adrienne Weissman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 23 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, Hello. This is Irene and Adrienne Weissman, and it is Friday, February 23 at 11 o'clock. And Adrian, I would like you to introduce yourself and tell us your name, your age, and where we are and what we are doing. AW: 00:25 Okay? My name is Adrienne Wolfson Weissman. Um, I am 75 years old, and we are in my apartment in Manhattan, and intend to discuss life at Binghamton University when it was not Binghamton University in the 1960s. IG: 00:51 Okay, thank you. So where did you grow up? AW: 00:57 I grew up on Long Island in Franklin Square, and then in North Whitney. And before that, I lived in Brooklyn. Before I went to Franklin Square, started, I guess, the fourth grade in Long Island. IG: 01:17 So, you were born in Brooklyn? AW: 01:19 Uh, yeah. IG: 01:19 As was I. AW: 01:22 Most people were. [laughter] IG: 01:24 Most people were. AW: 01:25 Yeah. IG: 01:26 I agree. So, who were your parents? Who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from? AW: 01:34 My parents were born in Brooklyn. My father was a CPA, a lawyer and a college professor. IG: 01:45 Where did he teach? AW: 01:47 At Queensborough Community College, he taught law and trying to think what- accounting and my mother was a school teacher in Renton square. IG: 02:04 I see okay, and were they just give us an idea, you know, first, second, third generation- AW: 02:11 College? IG: 02:13 No Americans. AW: 02:15 Oh. My mother's mother was born here. My father's mother and father came over from Russia in 1917. IG: 02:29 Do you know where? AW: 02:35 Actually, I somewhere- I have the manifest from the ship that they took over, and I looked it up online, and- IG: 02:45 That is so interesting, because, you know, it is my background, that is my background as well. And so, I know a lot about the different immigrations. And so, they came right during the revolution. AW: 03:00 Yes. IG: 03:01 Do you know if they lived in in Russia itself, or in Ukraine, or what was then known as the Russian Empire? AW: 03:10 I do not know. IG: 03:11 You do not know. AW: 03:11 No. IG: 03:12 Well, that is okay. AW: 03:13 They came with their oldest son, and then they had five more children. IG: 03:19 Five more children, and they-they came to New York City? AW: 03:23 Yeah, they lived on, I guess, various places in Brooklyn. But when I knew them, they were living on Easton Parkway. AW: 03:24 Okay, I know where that is. AW: 03:30 Yeah. IG: 03:31 Okay, so, you know, I would assume that your parents expected you to go to college since they were very educated themselves. AW: 03:44 Yes, yeah, it was never, it was never a question. It was- IG: 03:49 It was never a question. AW: 03:50 No. IG: 03:51 So, education was valued in your family. Were you the only child? AW: 03:59 No, I have. I had two sisters; one is deceased. All three of us went to college. IG: 04:07 All three. So, you know, tell us, what were your reasons for going to Harpur College? Why did you choose that above others? AW: 04:21 I wanted to get away from home. My parents wanted me to go to Queens College or Douglas College, which is part of Rutgers, and I was accepted at both, but I really- my parents were very strict, and I wanted more freedom. IG: 04:49 Wanted more freedom. AW: 04:51 And they allowed me to apply there, and I got in. I never saw the school before I got up there. It was not like it is now, where the kids go to all these different schools and take tours and everything. I never saw the campus until I arrived. IG: 05:15 But you probably heard that it had a certain reputation. Then draw you. That drew you- AW: 05:16 [crosstalk] the only state school that did not have teacher education courses. It was a liberal arts college. IG: 05:31 And that is why you wanted. AW: 05:32 And I wanted for that. IG: 05:34 Were you on scholarship? Did you get a regional scholarship- AW: 05:36 Yes. IG: 05:36 -or anything? AW: 05:37 Yeah, regional scholarship. IG: 05:39 So did that factor into your decision? AW: 05:42 No. I- my parents both worked. We were not the only families with two cars back then, and we lived in a private house. So, I do not, I do not think money was a real issue. IG: 05:57 Right. AW: 05:58 So. IG: 05:59 Right. So, you never saw a campus before arriving. AW: 06:08 No, most of my friends had not either. IG: 06:11 And most of your friends had not either. What-what was- what were- do you remember some of your first impressions of this very different kind of place, because it must have been a lot more rural than Long Island at the time, or? AW: 06:30 I do not remember noticing that much about the surrounding area. IG: 06:35 Right. AW: 06:35 It was more the fact that I was going to be sharing a room. I had my own bedroom at home, and now I was sharing a room at the college. Was not a very large room, and we did have contact with roommates before we went up, we were told who our roommate would be, so we were able to coordinate. Did we want the same bed spreads, things like that? I remember that, and I remember meeting everybody. We did not really have the kind of orientations that they do now, because I remember when I went up for my daughter's orientation, they did role playing to see what it would be like to be away from your family for the first time, things like that, and I do not remember doing anything like that. IG: 07:39 So, did you have an easy or difficult adjustment? AW: 07:45 I was so thrilled to be away that it was a pretty easy adjustment back then, you know, no cell phones or anything. So, I would call home on Sunday uh, every week, and that was my only contact, really, with my parents, was the-the weekly phone call. IG: 08:10 Did you miss them very much? Or were you too excited to- AW: 08:14 I was excited [crosstalk] IG: 08:15 You were excited, you were not- IG: 08:17 I was not. IG: 08:18 -to aware of being homesick. AW: 08:20 No. IG: 08:20 Okay, so-so [crosstalk] AW: 08:21 [crosstalk] people who were and some people, I remember, dropped out and went back home because they really could not handle being away. They did not want to be away. IG: 08:34 Were these people- do you think there was, I hear from others, a separation between town and gown, and there were people from the City and Long Island, and then there were students from upstate- AW: 08:51 Yeah. IG: 08:52 -so, they had, there was a little bit of a cultural difference, from what I understand. AW: 08:56 There was a cultural difference also because some of them had never met a Jewish person before, and mostly the kids from upstate. IG: 09:08 Right. AW: 09:09 And I remember talking to one of the girls, and she said to me, she really thought that Jews had horns because she did not know anything about Jewish people. IG: 09:23 Were you insulted? AW: 09:26 I think I was fascinated that, because, you know, you grow up in Brooklyn and you do not have any kind of feeling that you are different or anything like that. I did have that kind of feeling when on Long Island, because we moved to an area where the older homes were German owned, and then the new, the new development, and there was some prejudice there, but I was just, you know, how could you have been college age and never have met a Jewish person. It just- IG: 10:03 Or even more to imagine that they have horns. I mean, she was this person. Was saying this in jest. AW: 10:12 Sort of, yeah, but-but she had never talked to a Jewish person before. So. IG: 10:21 Have you ever talked to a person from, you know, a very rural upstate environment? What- AW: 10:35 Probably not. IG: 10:36 Yeah. AW: 10:37 I-I knew, just cosmopolitan. IG: 10:43 Right. AW: 10:44 I mean, I went into Manhattan by myself from Long Island and used a library in Manhattan, things like that. But I do not think I ever met anybody from upstate either. [crosstalk] What I found strange, was that some of the people I met from upstate, they had just gotten indoor plumbing. You know, they lived on a farm, and they had outhouses and things like that, which was so far away from anything I knew. IG: 11:23 So, you know, it was very different. It was very different and, but I-I would imagine that in time, you found some commonalities with-with these people, or did- AW: 11:35 Yeah, we were all studying. IG: 11:37 You were all studying and-and somehow, you know, the differences may be leveled, were leveled out. AW: 11:45 Yeah-yeah. It is funny, because my husband and I just took a trip to Florida--road trip, and on the way back, I got together with somebody who had lived on my floor at Harpur and I had not seen her since Harpur and she was from upstate, I guess, Syracuse area maybe, and she struck me as very small town at the time, and we got together with her for dinner. And, you know, she has got a PhD. She was teaching at the University of North Carolina you know. And when she was at Harpur, she was known because she had been a cheerleader in high school, you know. So, Harpur changed us, I think. IG: 12:46 It sounds very much like it did. So, you know what-what was your experience of I mean, there were many questions. What was your experience of academics at Harpur, when you, when you, you said that you wanted to get a liberal art a solid liberal arts education? Did you have any notions, any ideas of where this liberal arts education would take you? AW: 13:15 I think that I always intended to be a school teacher. IG: 13:19 Yeah, like your mother? AW: 13:20 Yeah-yeah, or a librarian, you know, that type of thing. And, um, uh, so I sort of had a goal. I knew that I would go to graduate school to-to do the uh the teacher education part of it. And just, you know, I-I did not realize how hard it would be, because I did very well in high school. But then when I got up there, I realized everybody there did very well in high school. It was not. I mean, everybody was valedictorian, so yeah, and I found the that I did not. I had not really learned in-in high school how to write a paper or anything. I had to learn that at Harpur IG: 14:24 And so, did you take? What kind of courses did you take? Did you take English creative- probably there was not creative [crosstalk] AW: 14:29 Well, I majored in Spanish and French and minored in English. So, I took a lot of literature courses, Spanish language, French language. And then we had a lot of basic courses that we had to take back then IG: 14:52 Like what, for example? AW: 14:54 History 101, geology um, music, because I noticed when my daughter went that there were many more courses that were not requirements. You know, like their history course was "A History of the Future," which was, I thought, a strange title for a course, but that is we had, you know, 101, 102, 103, 104 for a lot of the courses. So, you ended up with four semesters of history and science requirement and all kinds of things. IG: 15:43 So, are there any courses that stand out? Any-any professors that stand out in your memory as being exceptional? AW: 15:53 Yeah, I remember Dr. Locke, who was my I think he was my French professor, and he was good. IG: 15:56 Why was he good? Because he was an adapted at teaching language or literature or? AW: 16:14 Well, he was fun. We did a lot of conversational skits up in the front of the room, and he was- IG: 16:26 So, you were conversant in French? AW: 16:29 Not really. IG: 16:30 Not really. AW: 16:31 Because it was taught with a lab. You know, it was not done the way it is now. So, I knew grammar and vocabulary, but not really- IG: 16:45 It was more for reading. It was more for reading. It was more- Um, so you liked his course. What were the history courses? You know, did you learn American history? Did you learn a world history? Or was it- AW: 17:00 World history. IG: 17:01 World history. AW: 17:01 I remember the final for the World History. One of the essay questions was, trace the role of the papacy from like 1500 to the 1900s? IG: 17:18 That is so interesting. I mean, it is so, it is so, you know, out of your field of-of- AW: 17:25 Right. And, but all encompassing, but- IG: 17:28 It is all encompassing, yeah, it really, I think, you know, it gives you a certain kind of overview world of Western a Western European history. Um, so, did you study American history? Do you- I mean, you, you were studying in what years, in the- AW: 17:54 (19)60 to (19)64. IG: 17:56 To (19)64 so, you know, Vietnam was in the air, and people were concerned about draft. AW: 18:08 [crosstalk] anything about it, except the- there was a group that were protesting that type of thing. But I do not remember- IG: 18:21 Student activists. AW: 18:22 Yeah, yeah. IG: 18:23 Did they protest on campus? Did they go march on Washington? Do you remember? AW: 18:32 No, I do not think. I was not really a part of all that. IG: 18:38 What about with, you know, your fellow I mean, classmates were they-did they talk about- AW: 18:45 I dated- IG: 18:46 -the draft. AW: 18:47 I dated one guy who happens to be a professor at Columbia now. Oh, well, Ronald Bayer, B, A, Y, E, R. IG: 18:57 I interviewed him. AW: 18:58 Oh, you did. I went out with him. IG: 19:02 He is very impressive. AW: 19:04 Yes. IG: 19:04 He is very smart. AW: 19:06 He is married. AW: 19:06 Yes. IG: 19:06 I am sorry [inaudible] LW: 19:12 We- I met a few times, and so lost touch. She also lost touch with him. AW: 19:17 He lives up here. IG: 19:18 I know, yeah, I mean, I interviewed him, yeah. He was, yeah-yeah. I interviewed him. That is- it really is a small world, yeah. So he was, he was very much, you know, politically active, yes. LW: 19:32 [crosstalk] Chicago [inaudible] AW: 19:36 And he, in fact, I remember- IG: 19:39 That is so interesting. [laughs] AW: 19:40 He was very, he was very impressed, he had met Eleanor Roosevelt. IG: 19:44 Yeah. He mentioned Eleanor Roosevelt, yeah. So-so outside of, you know, you were really not kind of, were you- were there any- um, political issues that were particularly close to you, or were you just focused on your academics, do you think? AW: 20:07 I was focused on social life and- IG: 20:10 Social life. AW: 20:11 Yeah, and academics. IG: 20:12 Okay, so what was social life like? I mean, you studied very hard, but there was a residential life. Did you participate in that? AW: 20:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah, what I remembered most is this disparity between what the boys were allowed to do and what the girls were allowed to do. IG: 20:32 Okay, so tell us about these restrictions on your- on the freedom of girls. AW: 20:37 The girls had a 10:30 curfew during the week, and the boys did not. IG: 20:45 Do they have any curfew? AW: 20:46 I think they did, but it was much later than what the girls had. The boys could live off campus after their sophomore year. The girls could never live off campus. IG: 21:01 Could you have boys in your dormitory rooms in your- AW: 21:08 Not-not that in the beginning, but by our senior year, yes, and there was the rule was four feet on the floor, and the door had to be open. And when my daughter went, of course, it was co-ed- IG: 21:23 Yeah, of course. AW: 21:24 And yeah, very-very different. IG: 21:26 So, did you mind these restrictions? Did you think about them, or did you just excite them? AW: 21:31 I accepted them. When I think back now, why did not we question it? But no, we did not, yeah, we did not even question for Sunday dinner. We were not allowed to wear pants. You know, it was pretty cold, right? And we had to wear a skirt or a dress to Sunday dinner. And we just accepted everything. We did not protest anything. IG: 21:58 Right. So, you know, I am just thinking, were there any sororities that you belong to? Did you- I mean, how did you spend your free time you dated, Ron Bayer but- AW: 22:18 I do not remember um there being sororities when I was there. The boys had social clubs that ranked them, but it is possible that there were, but I was not in that type thing. I hung out mainly with the people who lived on my floor. I am still friendly with the two girls who lived across the hall from me. We get together, you know, with the husbands and everything we see them. IG: 22:55 Could you mention their names? AW: 22:57 Sure, Harriet and Stu Rubin. They both went to Harpur and Grace Hirschdorf was her maiden name. Now it is Grace Rinsler. She and her husband live in New Jersey and Harriet and Stu live in Columbia, Maryland. IG: 23:19 Maybe these are people I can visit in the future. We will see. AW: 23:22 We get together with [crosstalk] IG: 23:25 That is very nice. AW: 23:27 My roommate, Judy Castanea, who lives here in Manhattan. IG: 23:31 Okay. AW: 23:32 Who I see? IG: 23:33 You see her? Oh, you see her. So how do you recall those years when you get together with your friends? AW: 23:41 I do not know that we really talk about just the- what I have discussed with them is the randomness of our being friends. If they had not lived right across the hall from me and had lived in a different dorm or something, I probably would not be friendly with them. It was just circumstance, but it has endured all these years. IG: 24:09 Yeah, so it was a fortunate circumstance. AW: 24:11 Yes, yeah. IG: 24:12 So, you know, how would these friends remember you? What would they say about you back then? How would they describe you? Do you think? AW: 24:28 Wild a little bit wild, I guess. IG: 24:30 How were you wild? AW: 24:31 Sexually. IG: 24:32 Okay. AW: 24:33 You know, I was feeling my oats, because I, as I said, my parents were very strict. IG: 24:40 Yeah. AW: 24:40 I had to account for everywhere I was when I was not in the house- IG: 24:45 Yeah. AW: 24:46 -and feeling my oats. IG: 24:52 Yeah-yeah. AW: 24:53 I mean, I remained a virgin, but everything else was- IG: 24:57 Okay within-within this [inaudible] kind of a restrictive environment, you so-so where did you go out with, you know, your friends or your boyfriend? AW: 25:10 Went to Binghamton. IG: 25:11 Yeah. What was that like? AW: 25:13 We- there was a bus, yeah, that took us right campus, right into Binghamton. IG: 25:19 Yeah. AW: 25:19 And we would go to the movies, or we would go out to dinner. I did not have much money. My allowance was $7.50 a week- IG: 25:30 Yeah. AW: 25:30 -from home, and I got a job in the post office on campus to make some extra money. [her husband talks] What? Oh, yeah. Oh, another friend that Alan Zublat, who lives in New Jersey, oh, we remain friendly all those years too. IG: 25:54 So-so you, you know, how did you- you had this job in the post office. You would go to Binghamton. You know, were you- did you feel happy? Did you feel supported during those years? Or there were periods of questioning? I mean, tell us about your sort of emotional arc during those four years, and how uh, you noticed that you were changing? AW: 26:26 No, I do not remember changing. IG: 26:29 You do not remember changing? AW: 26:30 No. I mean, I have felt that I was being exposed to things that I had not known about before. I had not listened to classical music before, and then I took a course there. So, I realized I liked classical music. IG: 26:50 Did you, did you listen to it in the library, or did you listen to- was there- AW: 26:57 In the class. IG: 26:58 In the class, and listen to the club in the classical music rather than, you know, going to a language lab or, you know, sometimes the music lab. AW: 27:07 No, we listened to it in class. And I remember I had to write a paper, and I got an A on the paper, and I was thrilled. It was on Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, and I tied in the choral section of it with the rest of the symphony. So, I guess that meant something to me, because I still remember. IG: 27:35 Yeah-yeah. So, you do not, you do not think that, you know this kind of that it, that it was that it sounds like it was an enlarging experience. AW: 27:46 Yeah [crosstalk] IG: 27:48 Do not you think that was changing? I guess it did not change your essence, but it changed kind of- AW: 27:57 Well, my-my liking of things, my knowledge certainly. IG: 28:03 Yeah. So-so I am just thinking about um, the external world, outside of outside of Binghamton. You know, what were some of the events-- Kennedy's assassination- AW: 28:21 That-that, you know it is one of these, you remember where you were. IG: 28:26 Yes-yes. AW: 28:27 It was, well, it was the day before my birthday. And a group of us went out the next night for my birthday because we had planned it, and I remember we were just so depressed and unhappy about what had happened, even though we were out. We went to a restaurant; we just sort of sat there. IG: 28:54 Were you afraid after that? AW: 28:56 Initially, yes, we were in the cafeteria and they were announcing over the loudspeaker. You know what was happening. AW: 28:57 Over the loudspeaker? AW: 28:57 Yes, in the cafeteria. AW: 29:05 Who was announcing? Do you remember? Was it [crosstalk] AW: 29:18 [crosstalk] radio or TV announcement may have been Walter Winchell [inaudible] I mean, Walter Cronkite, yeah, Walter Cronkite announcing the President is dead. And I remember we were all sitting there just we could not believe it, and we were concerned about what would happen next. IG: 29:45 Right. You know, was there any conjecture about what that next would be? AW: 29:52 I do not remember. IG: 29:55 You do not remember. AW: 29:55 No. I remember the first time I heard about it. Somebody on campus had a convertible, and they had the radio blaring, and I wondered why there was a crowd around the car. And when I walked over, they said the President had been shot. And then I just remember being in the cafeteria listening to what was going on. IG: 30:29 So let us just think of you know, you were not really involved in student activists direct- activism directly. Were outside of Ronald Bayer, were any of your women friends involved in politics? Or did they talk about it? AW: 30:55 I-I do not remember them talking about it. We were concerned about writing a paper. IG: 31:06 I see. AW: 31:07 You know, school work and social stuff. IG: 31:11 And social stuff. So, you know, the women rights movement happened really, much later in the early (19)70s, you were not really touched by it. AW: 31:14 No. IG: 31:15 But you were touched by it because you said that you were sexually experimenting, or, well, [crosstalk] you were sexually this was the early (19)60s. So-so, you know, so what was it? Was it the youth movement that was, that affected you? Was it rock and roll? Did you listen to that? Or what do you think, what do you think, kind of, because it was, you know, a different time than the kind of strait laced (19)50s I would think, or the time of your parents, you know, they- AW: 32:00 Yeah, to me, it was just, you know, it was getting away from home, and, you know, I dated a little bit when I was in high school, but I guess I was ready to experiment a little bit. IG: 32:20 So, what-what lessons do you think that you learned from this time in your life? What- how did this open your eyes to yourself and to the world? AW: 32:38 Hmm. I do not know that it did. I did not, I did not become interested in politics and the world until much later, after, I guess, after I met him. IG: 33:06 And because so tell me about him and how you met. AW: 33:11 We- he was avoiding the Vietnam War. IG: 33:14 I see. AW: 33:15 And he was teaching. IG: 33:17 And when was that? When did that take place? AW: 33:19 (19)68. IG: 33:20 I see. AW: 33:22 He was teaching in Bedford Stuyvesant as was I. IG: 33:25 So, you went back to Brooklyn after graduating? AW: 33:29 Uh, not to live. I lived in Queens. AW: 33:33 Where? AW: 33:33 Briarwood and I moved back home and went to graduate school at Hofstra, and my parents were not happy having me home. My father was controller for a real estate company, and he got me an apartment, a studio apartment in Brooklyn. I mean, in Queens in Briarwood, and I taught first on Long Island, Plain Edge, right for a couple of years, and then I got a job in Brooklyn, in Bed-Stuy. And I met Lou there. IG: 34:14 Right. So, you said, you know that your eyes to the bigger world opened as a result of this meeting so. AW: 34:24 Well, he-he is left of center, yes and-and cares a lot about what is going on in the world. And by osmosis, I became more aware of what was going on and cared more. AW: 34:43 So-so did you said- AW: 34:46 But I did not at college. IG: 34:47 You did not at college? AW: 34:49 No. IG: 34:49 You did not at college. AW: 34:50 It was not- here was a very small group, yeah, that was active. You know, Ronnie Bayer and his friends. And I was on the fringe of that, the rest of us- IG: 35:04 But you do not remember that he talked to you about any of this or what- AW: 35:05 Yes, of course he did. IG: 35:06 So what-what do you remember anything that he would tell you, or that he was involved in, or what the feelings were, and what were your reactions to them, or you did not really- AW: 35:21 I listened, and I certainly did not disagree with him. IG: 35:28 Right. So, did he go against your ideals? AW: 35:31 No. I mean, my-my parents were very liberal. IG: 35:37 I see, I did not know. AW: 35:38 And my father would tell me that during the (19)30s, he was almost considered the communists, things like that. And they were always Liberal Democrats, yeah, my family. So, you know. IG: 35:56 So really you came from that [inaudible] year you came from [crosstalk] AW: 35:58 Yeah, and I did not really think about it, because it was just part of my DNA, I guess liberal in my thinking, and I did date somebody at Binghamton who was a Republican. IG: 36:19 And what was that like? AW: 36:22 Uh, my parents- my father was very upset about it. He said, you know, "How can you?" I said, "Well, we do not discuss politics." AW: 36:32 [crosstalk] from Bronx. IG: 36:32 Right-right-right. And did he also come from a New York City Long Island, or was from- IG: 36:36 From Bronx. Yeah. AW: 36:40 And Jewish yeah and but a staunch Republican. IG: 36:46 Yeah, well. AW: 36:48 And we were pinned you know, like to be engaged and his parents-he brought me to meet his parents, and I guess I was too outspoken, because he eventually broke up with me and said that his parents did not approve me. So that so that ended. IG: 37:17 Yeah. Was that-that probably was disappointing at first, and then maybe a relief or? AW: 37:25 Well, you know, I moved on. IG: 37:27 You moved on. AW: 37:27 Yeah. IG: 37:28 You moved on. You moved on. So-so tell me about your life, production trajectory after Harpur College. So, you met your husband in the late (19)60s. AW: 37:43 We got married. We went cross country in the summer of (19)68. IG: 37:49 Yeah. AW: 37:50 After knowing him for a couple of months. IG: 37:52 Yeah. AW: 37:53 We drove cross country and we got married in Las Vegas on the way back. IG: 37:57 Wow. AW: 37:58 And [Adrienne's husband speaks] IG: 38:01 What? LW: 38:03 [inaudible] IG: 38:03 [laughs] AW: 38:06 And we will be married 50 years. IG: 38:10 That is wonderful. AW: 38:11 Yeah. IG: 38:12 So have you- did you live, did you continue living in the broughs or- AW: 38:22 Well, we lived in Briarwood. Um, because after we got married, my father got us a one-bedroom apartment. And then a few years later, when I had my first child, we got a two-bedroom apartment. And then we moved to South Brunswick, New Jersey, and we were there seven years, and he could not stand the commute because he was working at the Board of Ed. IG: 38:52 Yeah, that is a hard commute- AW: 38:53 To downtown Brooklyn. IG: 38:54 In downtown Brooklyn. AW: 38:56 Yeah. And so, we moved to Staten Island. IG: 39:00 I see. AW: 39:01 And we were there for 37 years. IG: 39:03 Oh, wow. AW: 39:05 And I hated every minute of it. IG: 39:07 Yeah, you hated every minute, yeah, I am surprised. I am surprised that you moved there, but yeah, you know, it makes sense, because of the commute. AW: 39:14 And the schools were decent for girls to go to. And then we, five years ago, we sold the house. AW: 39:24 Right. AW: 39:25 And we bought in a retirement community in Monroe Township, which is right near right Brunswick. IG: 39:35 Right. AW: 39:36 So, you cannot go home again. IG: 39:38 Yeah-yeah. AW: 39:39 Yeah. IG: 39:41 So, you know, you know, so tell-tell us about, you know, looking back on, you know, your-your life, what-what do you what do you have to really, what were some of the more important lessons you have learned in your life that you would like to share with future generations of students listening what is important as they go through their studies as they think about what, what course of study to take, course of you know, in their life to take. What are some [crosstalk] AW: 40:33 I firmly believe in the liberal arts education, rather than learning a trade. I think it is important to broaden your horizons, so to speak. And then, in fact, both my daughters had liberal arts educations, and then for graduate school went on to do a specific thing. IG: 41:05 So, tell me. Tell me which family members went to Binghamton University. AW: 41:11 My- both my daughters went to Binghamton and my older daughter went on for an MBA from George Washington University, and my younger daughter went on for a master's in Hotel and Restaurant Management at University of Massachusetts, and my son in law became an attorney, and his sister is a CPA. IG: 41:48 I see, I know you said that your grandchildren are considering Binghamton as well [crosstalk] AW: 41:53 My grandson who is fifteen is considering Binghamton, so. IG: 41:58 Right. You know, looking back at that experience, what do you think that Harpur College gave you? AW: 42:08 It opened my eyes to various disciplines, I guess, that I was not aware of, like music and better understanding of history, things like that, but to me, the relationships I made there- IG: 42:28 Are most important. AW: 42:30 -are the most important, yeah. IG: 42:35 So, you know, when you meet with your former classmates, you do not really talk about Harpur. You talk about [crosstalk] AW: 42:41 We do, we do yeah. IG: 42:44 So, what kind of things do you remember? AW: 42:47 People reminisce about the restrictions on us as women back then and the fun we had will if we find out about one of the classmates, you know "Oh, I ran into so and so, went to Harpur with us. You know that that type of thing. IG: 43:17 I am very curious to know if you have any photographs of yourself from that time? AW: 43:24 Yeah, I do close at hand. No, in a box. IG: 43:28 Okay, no, do not worry about it. So do you think that your generations experience sort of, you know, you were in between. You were on the very beginning of the stage of the 60s, and you know all of this. But there was ferment there-there that-that was- AW: 43:55 Just starting. IG: 43:55 Just starting. AW: 43:55 Just stating. IG: 43:57 And how, but how do you think that you are this even, even this experience, even this big generations experience shaped your sort of responses to the world today? Do you think? AW: 44:13 I think I think that the way I was brought up had more to do with it- IG: 44:24 More to do with it. AW: 44:25 Yeah, then-then Harpur, because I was not part of the activist group. IG: 44:34 Right. Well, it is not only the activists. So-so what was your education at home--your very liberal minded education at home um, teach you what were some of the lessons that you know- AW: 44:51 Tolerance. IG: 44:52 Tolerance. AW: 44:58 I do not really know. It was just, it was always there, you know, voting for Hubert Humphrey. IG: 45:06 Right-right. AW: 45:08 Disparaging things that were not liberal in thinking it was just, I grew up with it. I did not give it a lot of thought. IG: 45:26 You did not give it a lot of thought. What do you- AW: 45:27 The people that I was friendly with at Harpur felt the way I did. IG: 45:34 Did-did your professors feel the same way that you did? Did you feel, you know- AW: 45:40 I do not think that-that they were opinionated that way. IG: 45:45 They were not. AW: 45:46 They focused on teaching the particular subject, and they did not digress into their process- IG: 45:55 Even-even the history professors? AW: 45:57 I do not remember them doing it. IG: 45:59 I see. Okay, so do you have any outstanding memories, you know, a very, a very positive memory that you would like to share from your time at Harpur. What were some of the happiest memories? AW: 46:21 Uh, on Friday nights, we would go to the theater on campus to see serial movies that were fun. I cannot remember that, but I remember, you know, with Shazam, I do not remember what-what the character was, but it was a regular thing on Friday nights that we went to the movies. I remember the theater group putting on wonderful shows, musicals- IG: 46:59 Campus theater group? AW: 47:01 Yeah-yeah. IG: 47:03 There is still a very, a very strong theater department. AW: 47:07 Oh, there is? IG: 47:07 Yes. Oh, very much. So, in fact, well, this is not about me. This is about you. Well, I am I am interested. I am interested. I am taking a course in playwriting, which I-I really, really enjoy. AW: 47:21 There was one guy I was friendly with, Tony Manionis. I have no idea where he is now, but I remember them doing on the town. IG: 47:30 Yeah-yeah-yeah. AW: 47:31 It was great. IG: 47:34 It was great. So-so that is how- these are the positive experience. Any-any-any, anything that-that was any I do not want to conclude on this note, but I am just wondering, anything that really stands out in your memory is something that you did not like about this college experience. IG: 48:05 No. AW: 48:05 No. AW: 48:05 No. IG: 48:07 It was all very positive. AW: 48:09 Yeah, well, the weather- IG: 48:10 The weather, the weather you did not like. AW: 48:12 Yeah. I remember- IG: 48:14 Wearing skirts on Sundays. AW: 48:16 Yeah, eventually they did away with that. But I just remember lots of snow, and cold. IG: 48:22 Yeah, it is still, it is still like that. AW: 48:24 Yeah. And, you know, we did not have- if I came with a clock radio, a portable typewriter, it was a lot. When my kids went, you know, it was a microwave, this and that, you know it was sort of very basic living. IG: 48:45 Yeah. So do you have any- I am just wondering- so you went back to Binghamton a number of times since graduating. And how did you notice that the you know, campus was changing apart from your kids bringing more appliances? AW: 49:12 Well, [inaudible] co-ed. They were living in like a suite with a lot of common area, rooms, and as my husband said, I walked around like I was a tourist for the seeing the big city for the first time. "Oh my God, look what they built." IG: 49:34 So, the campus has had really expanded. You go back when-when- what were the years that you went back? LW: 49:43 Let us see our daughter was born (19)71. And she was 18- IG: 49:49 Right. LW: 49:50 -when we first went back. IG: 49:52 So, in the late, late (19)80s. AW: 49:54 Yeah, first, and then four years later, when her sister went. IG: 49:59 Yeah. So. The Campus must have really transformed. AW: 50:03 It exploded. IG: 50:04 It exploded. AW: 50:05 Yeah. IG: 50:05 It exploded. AW: 50:06 When we were there. We had one--we had a little post office, and we had the cafeteria. We had the science building; we had the library. I mean, you know, pretty basic. There were no tennis courts or things like that. But, uh- IG: 50:29 Did you use a library when you were there a lot? AW: 50:32 Yes-yes. Yeah, well, I did not have a computer or anything like that. So, research was done in a book- IG: 50:41 In a book. I remember, I remember. So, any you know outstanding memories that you would like to share with us, anything that you would like to add, any concluding remarks about this very important experience in your life. AW: 50:59 We used to line up for dinner, down the steps and around and the dessert was always lime jell O. So, I remember that. LW: 51:14 That a favorable memory? [laughs] AW: 51:16 No, I just remember that, IG: 51:18 Yeah, lime jell O. AW: 51:19 And I remember when the parents came up for Parents Weekend, they would give us a wonderful dinner, and like pretend that this is what they served us all the time. IG: 51:19 So, what was a wonderful dinner? Do you remember, and how did that differ from your everyday meal? AW: 51:40 There is no salad bar. There was no, I mean, the food, rice, whatever was there that night. And there were no choices. The food was not wonderful. IG: 51:51 The food, the food was, what meatloaf and potatoes, that kind of thing. AW: 51:57 Yeah, I think so. IG: 51:58 So, there was no ethnic food. There was no health food to speak of, AW: 52:05 No-no. IG: 52:05 Nothing like that. AW: 52:06 And we did not question that either. IG: 52:10 You did not question that either. AW: 52:12 We questioned nothing. IG: 52:14 But now you but, but then you learned, as a result of meeting your husband, you learned to question a lot more. AW: 52:21 Yeah. IG: 52:22 And for example, what, what kind of things would you question? I am just, I mean, this is not about your Harpur, but what, what did you learn to question? AW: 52:30 The-the way the world is, you know. Um, who our elected officials are, you know, things like that. IG: 52:44 Okay, so do you have anything to add to say to people listening to this tape, future college students? Advice. AW: 53:01 Enjoy those four years, because you can work after that for many, many years. IG: 53:06 Yeah. AW: 53:07 I mean, I taught for 27 years. IG: 53:11 You taught which grades? AW: 53:13 Uh, eighth grade, junior high school, English, all that time, I retired in 2001. IG: 53:23 And your husband retired. He was also for the Board of Ed. AW: 53:30 No. LW: 53:30 Well- AW: 53:31 No, he had a lot of different jobs. LW: 53:33 I worked for the city, New York City, a variety of different jobs for 32 years, and then I retired from that until the job of not for profit. Oh, and did that for 11 years. AW: 53:45 All financial jobs. LW: 53:47 And I retired in 2011--for real. IG: 53:54 Yeah, for real, for real. Okay, so- LW: 53:58 [inaudible] IG: 53:58 Yeah. LW: 54:00 I think what you what she got out of school, to some degree, is lifetime friends. It is lifetime friends and relationships. IG: 54:07 Yeah, I get that. LW: 54:09 That, um, is something that students that should be aware of and should relish. IG: 54:19 Yes, I think so. I think so. AW: 54:23 Because he has, he has been pulled into those [inaudible] too. LW: 54:28 That Binghamton does provide. I am guessing 85 to 90 percent of the students at Binghamton are from the state. IG: 54:36 Yes-yes. LW: 54:38 So, there is a maintain some type of proximity within the geographic area, as opposed to Virginia or Michigan, North Carolina- IG: 54:47 Right-right. LW: 54:47 -that you can maintain relationships with people in lifetime, friends, which she has done probably more than most people. IG: 54:56 Yeah. Well, anything-anything left to add? [inaudible] AW: 55:06 No. IG: 55:07 No-no, well. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your thoughts and your time. Okay, so this is- please introduce yourself. LW: 55:18 Louis Weissman, Adrienne Weissman, Adrienne Wolfen Weissman's husband, guess, pushing 50 years sitting here listening to the interview that she was doing as a graduate of Binghamton, which I am not, sorry that I probably was not, but I am not, anyway, Adrian, I have been talking, you know, obviously the shooting in Florida has led to a lot of discussions, and the students, the high school students that have hopefully beginning what will be a long term, permanent movement of protesting and effecting change, which I believe that the college students in the (19)60s really led the movement, the anti-war movement, led the civil rights, the women's movement, and it changed things. And hopefully that the students in high school now who are being directly affected by the shootings that are going on gun issues will have the same impact long term, I hope. Although, given the politics in this country at the moment, I am not always sure that the movement is going to be in the right direction. So, you would not we have a president who wants to arm teachers rather than regulate and limit guns. But- AW: 56:37 I did not want to be armed. LW: 56:39 -but, so I so I am not sure, but I really am. Maybe for the first time since the shootings in Columbine and Sandy Hook, that I am [inaudible] getting a little bit hopeful that maybe these kids will lead a movement that will change things. AW: 56:54 He said after Sandy Hook, nothing is going to change. LW: 56:57 So now- IG: 57:00 But just if you could repeat, you know, and what you said about the difference between your generation in the you know, your your class, LW: 57:10 Oh, the period of time? IG: 57:11 In the (19)60s, and Adrienne's. LW: 57:14 Adrienne graduate, what was in Harpur College from (19)60 to (19)64 I entered college in (19)68. AW: 57:24 No, you graduated- LW: 57:27 -in (19)68 so I started in 64 when she graduated. Um, she was in school at the beginning of the changes that were occurring in terms of civil rights, anti-war, women's movement that was just beginning then, and I think took much greater hold the second half of the (19)60s into the early (19)70s, not only in terms of the movements, but in terms of the impact music had, protest music had, which is interesting enough. Sandra and I do not share the same music tastes of the (19)60s. You know, I also remember, I also think the second half of the (19)60s had much more of a drug element to it than the first half of the (19)60s did, somewhat influenced by the music and and-and the people in it. AW: 58:22 [crosstalk] was very into the protests. LW: 58:24 -and the protests were much more visible and much larger, sometimes more violent than they needed to be, but nevertheless became part of the culture because became part of shaping college students, who I think in many cases, still keep the same values that they had then, in terms of an openness, acceptance of people, and make you sort of had a still had a foot in the (19)50s, at that point, to a greater degree than I did who was in school four years later. IG: 59:10 Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just a few more minutes. Okay, so, what did you say? LW: 59:20 She says slept of through the (19)60s in terms of music. I am not sure [inaudible] Nash and so on so forth. I guess the folk protest songs, yeah. IG: 59:37 [crosstalk] Mary LW: 59:40 Judy Collins, those types of things. AW: 59:43 That I learned from Ronnie Bayer. LW: 59:45 [crosstalk] the Beatles were an influence, but I think the music was an integral part of the second half of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, much more so than the Doo Wop stuff from the (19)50s into the early (19)60s. You know, listen to Sirius radio in the (19)60s. And some of the stuff I just cannot stand listening to some stuff in the (19)50s is unlisted from Frankie Avalon and [inaudible] pop singers. So, I really think that the music did have a major influence in the second half of the (19)60s, much more so than the first half, and helped shape the thinking and the views of a generation. AW: 1:00:35 So, you got to marry someone younger than you. IG: 1:00:41 Well, thank you very much. Thanks. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrienne W. Weissman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Description An account of the resource Adrienne is a retired New York City school teacher. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-23 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weissman, Adrienne W. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adrienne Weissman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:42 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dbf2e865feea9a53e4533e1e76b8a2df.mp3 9b58b180ce188e9a2cef716c2e27b5f4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/13e555b69140227a5096bc283597fe90.jpg 8cd344de010f4e24192673eb7e9424b9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-02-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David S. Hammer Year of Graduation 1968 Biographical Text David has worked as a trial lawyer for more than 30 years and was engaged in civil and criminal litigation. He served in the U.S. Justice Department in the Antitrust Division and as an Assistant United States Attorney in Miami and in Manhattan. For the last two decades he has worked in private practice in New York. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: David S. Hammer Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 23 February 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Doing. DH: 00:01 My name is David Hammer like a sledgehammer, and I am 70, and we are going to be engaged in an interview about Binghamton in the (19)60s, as I understand it, Harpur as I knew it then. We are at my law offices at 505 5th Avenue in the law firm Lankler, Siffert and Wohl. IG: 00:17 And where are we? IG: 00:29 Okay, so um, just let us start at the beginning. Where did you grow up? DH: 00:36 I grew up between, I mean, half the time in Manhattan, half the time in the Bronx. IG: 00:41 Oh-oh. DH: 00:43 I was born in Manhattan. We moved to the Bronx. We moved back to Manhattan, we moved back to the Bronx. IG: 00:49 What did your parents do? DH: 00:51 They were both court reporters. They both were- my father--I forget it took it as a, as-as an achievement of distinction, was one of the earliest users of the stenotype, and my mother, was a little bit younger, learned the stenotype, and they both worked in the New York court system. So, my father was assigned to the Bronx Supreme Court and the Manhattan Supreme Court. We moved back and forth. IG: 01:20 And tell me a little bit about your parents where you know, did they grow up in the United States? DH: 01:28 Right. My parents both were born in the United States. My mother was born on the Lower East Side. My father was born in what is in Harlem, actually near Burt Lancaster and both of them were born before the First World War. Their parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe. IG: 01:56 Um, so their parents came. I am just curious, because I- DH: 02:02 Pretty much between all four grandparents came in the 15 years between 1885 and 1900. IG: 02:11 I see, I see, okay. Um, all right, so did your parents went to college? DH: 02:19 My father went to college. My mother did not. IG: 02:23 But there was an expectation that you would go on. DH: 02:26 Yes. IG: 02:26 You- that you would go to college. Did you have any siblings? DH: 02:30 I have a sister. She also went to college. IG: 02:32 Okay, so education, I assume, was valued in your family. DH: 02:37 Yes, and then, I mean, all of my friends in the- I mean, I went to Stuyvesant, and I think we had like, a 95 percent college rate, so it was just assumed that I would go to college. IG: 02:53 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur? DH: 02:57 To be candid, I did not get into Yale, um, and Harpur was a good, a good school, from my father's point of view. It was also the attraction of being an inexpensive school in those days. I forget what it cost, but it was nothing. And if you had-- the state gave out Regent Scholarships and stuff, and it really was, maybe it was $2,500 a year or something like that. IG: 03:24 And did you get a Regent Scholarship? DH: 03:27 I did, and there were various other forms of financial aid, and you could get a job as a messenger and some something, so that it was really no burden, either the students or the students’ parents. IG: 03:39 Had you ever gone upstate before coming to Binghamton? DH: 03:43 I had never gone to Binghamton before, but yeah, no, we would be in upstate. I mean, we had been, we have been to Niagara Falls and places like that. Binghamton—I-I think I had heard of Binghamton because Rod Serling, whose TV show I think I watched. I think Rod Serling that lived in Binghamton for a while. IG: 04:01 Yeah, I know that, and I do not know that he graduated, but he did live there. that is true, I remember that. So, what did- what was your reputation of Harpur College back then? DH: 04:16 I do not know what his general reputation was, but the reputation--I had a very good friend whose brother went to Harpur and who spoke very well of it, and it was thought of as being a better school than city. I mean, if you were going to go to a school that was not expensive, it was thought of as being a better place to go than city, and it had a good reputation. I mean, it was very small back then. I started in the summer, and there were, like 1200 I think there were 1200 students in the summer of (19)64. IG: 04:51 Summer of (19)64. DH: 04:51 Right. You know, those members of my family who were very big on credentials kind of denigrated the school. School, because it was not Princeton. IG: 05:01 Right. DH: 05:02 But then I did not get into Princeton, so, you know, I mean, it was, it was a good school, and I was happy to go there. IG: 05:08 Yeah. So, did you visit the school before coming there in the summer? DH: 05:12 No, I did not, I did not. IG: 05:12 This was- DH: 05:14 Yeah. IG: 05:14 You know, you saw for the first time as you- DH: 05:17 Right. IG: 05:18 -entered the program. So, what were your first impressions? I mean, it was pretty rural. DH: 05:24 Well, my first impression was a little bit distressed by the sort of dreary brick buildings, which reminded me of the projects in New York. They seemed to be the sort of New York State institutional style of building, but the area around it, the school was beautiful. And in those days, Binghamton was not an unsophisticated place. I mean, it had IBM, it had Ansco, it had quite a few industries with highly educated, you know, engineers and stuff, places that I think have now closed down and moved away. So, I mean, it was mixed. I was a little lonely for being away from home. On the other hand, a little excited about being away from home. And I really was taken with how beautifully the surrounding countryside was that was before I realized that it rained 90 percent of the time. IG: 06:26 Because you came there in the most beautiful season- DH: 06:29 Exactly. IG: 06:29 -in Binghamton. And so, the school had changed to a trimester system- DH: 06:35 Right. IG: 06:36 -by the time that you arrived. DH: 06:37 Right. And in the summer, I mean, that I started, nobody took school particularly seriously, and it was like being in a kind of quasi summer camp with an academic patina to it. I mean, maybe like going to music camp for kids to do that. It was a great--I had a wonderful time that first summer, and then in September or October, whenever the second trimester began, then school began to get more serious. IG: 07:05 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study, what you wanted to get from Harpur College? DH: 07:12 I cannot say that I did. I mean, being a lawyer was always- because both of my parents were connected with the court system. Being a lawyer was always sort of in the background, but I wrote for the school paper, and I went to Columbia, the school of journalism, and for a while I thought of being a journalist, so I was not really set on any particular profession. And um- IG: 07:36 Did you go to the school of journalism right after graduating? DH: 07:39 I did. I did, and I found that I had no particular talent for sciences. So, I mean, I flunked chemistry, I remember, and so, yeah, I just took literature and history courses and made some friends among the faculty. IG: 07:55 Tell me what- we will stay on this topic a little bit. So, tell me a little bit about the school newspaper, because none of my interviewees have spoken about that yet. DH: 08:09 Well, the school newspaper was actually a fairly good paper, which came out, as I recall, twice a week. It was then called the Colonial News because, for reasons that I do not recall--Binghamton, the school were the colonials. That was its nickname. It later became the Pipe Dream. If that is still the name, IG: 08:28 Yes, there is still the Pipe Dream. DH: 08:31 And, you know, it was not a lot of news on the campus those days, so that most of the stuff was, you know, articles, kids got everybody wanted to be a reviewer of the drama. Tony Kornheiser was the editor of the sports section. I was the feature news editor. And it was interesting. I mean, you got to write a lot. And in fact, since there was not a lot of other stuff to read on campus, I mean, if you wrote for the newspaper, good portion of the school read it. IG: 09:10 So, what kind of things did you write about? IG: 09:11 At Stuyvesant? DH: 09:11 I started off reviewing plays I had been in my senior year play it in high school. So, I thought for a while- DH: 09:13 At Stuyvesant. I thought for a while maybe I would be involved in drama at Harpur, and I was not a good actor, but I started reviewing plays. And then I- when I became Features Editor, I wrote about everything. I mean, I wrote about- we did reviews of the various departments, something that was really- we were not qualified to and we just tried to fill space. I mean, it is not easy to fill two pages of feature stuff in a school of that size twice a week. IG: 09:54 No, I can appreciate that. I worked as a reporter. IG: 09:59 Um, so, um- DH: 09:59 Oh. DH: 10:03 The thing about the school in those days was it was small enough so that if you really wanted to, you could participate in almost anything, something that would be a lot harder in a large school. I mean, you could be in plays, even if you were not particularly talented. You could write for the paper. There was a literary magazine you could write for that. IG: 10:21 I did not know. I did not know that there was a literary magazine. DH: 10:24 Well, Milt Kessler [Milton Kessler], who was the poet, the school poet. Then, as I recall, was the faculty advisor. And no, so it was a good experience. I mean, you could really get a taste of a lot of different things, activities. IG: 10:34 And the- there was a good theater program, because there is still a very good theater program. DH: 10:48 Well, it was not good in the sense of turning out professional DH: 10:54 productions, but it was good in the sense of being ambitious, of being of having a kind of educational rather than theatrical aim, I mean it, it selected plays of the past- Shakespeare was never put on, which I think was a mistake, but plays by lesser playwrights that well, there was an Ibsen [Henrik Ibsen] play, Rosmersholm- Rosmersholm that was put on was a bit of a disaster. There were plays by Brecht. I mean, there were serious plays that one would not see in New York that the department put on. And there were usually large productions in which everybody who wanted to participate could participate, and then that was supplemented by a one act program in which theater majors directed a play, so that it was like off Broadway, more of on guard stuff was put on, in addition to the stuff chosen by the department itself. IG: 12:00 Do you remember any of the pieces that- DH: 12:02 There was a- I remember, and I- what is his name, Synge, S, Y, N, G, E, an Irish playwright--there was, I forget the name of the play that was put on. I was, I was in that, and cannot remember many others, but, you know, in some ways they were more fun because the directors were students, little bit older than yourself. IG: 12:28 Right. DH: 12:28 And they spent a lot of time and a lot of passion in-in doing it. Oh, yeah, no, there was also a play the End Game we put on. I had a part in that. So, yeah, I mean, my goodness. I mean, I really do not have acting talent, but I managed to- IG: 12:47 It is so wonderful to have that experience. DH: 12:50 Yeah. I mean, I had an opportunity to participate in stuff that I would never have had if I had been on a major campus. IG: 12:52 Right-right. Do you think that any of the plays that were staged were, in some kind of weigh a commentary on the times, because this- DH: 13:04 I do not know, pony, it is hard to- IG: 13:06 No. DH: 13:07 It is hard. I mean, it is hard to see an immediate connection. They did not, I mean, I am not really sure they did put on- I mean, they did put on, you know, Arturo, we and I, and I and I suppose I think that was actually a student production, and I think that the person who put it on probably had some connection in his mind between that and Lyndon Johnson, but it was not an immediate connection. IG: 13:36 Right. Yeah, okay, and about your newspaper, so did you what-what were some of the, I mean, the Vietnam for force was on everyone's mind. DH: 13:46 And there was a, there was a Marxist professor, not, it was not a professor. It was a Marxist scholar. Isaac Deutscher was a very famous scholar. And- IG: 13:56 I know the name. DH: 13:57 Yeah, was a wonderful man--had been unable to get a permanent position in England, because it now turns out, he was blacklisted by Isaiah Berlin. And he came to- IG: 14:11 He was blacklisted by Isaiah I cannot believe it. DH: 14:14 Yeah, well, it has come out that Isaiah Berlin had some animus towards him, and there was job opening, I think, at University of Sheffield. [IG speaks in the background ,inaudible] Yeah. Well, he was a wonderful man. He was one of the most charming, sophisticated men I have ever met. IG: 14:14 You met him? DH: 14:16 Oh, I spent a lot of time with him. Yeah. IG: 14:28 How did you spend a lot of time- DH: 14:39 Well, he was, he was, he was, he was on the campus full time as a visiting scholar. In fact, he was hoping to get an appointment on the faculty- IG: 14:49 Right. DH: 14:50 -which did not happen. In any event, he died a year or two thereafter, but, um, you know, we had read the Prophet Unarmed [The Prophet Unarmed: Trotsky, 1921–1929]. We have read one of in a history class. We had read one of the three, one of the trilogy that he had written about Trotsky, and he was very well known. IG: 15:09 Right. DH: 15:10 And I met him at, I do not know, various faculty dinners that I was invited to, and I organized a debate between Deutscher and several of the professors at Harpur. IG: 15:25 Where was this? DH: 15:26 This was at Harpur. IG: 15:28 This was at Harpur! DH: 15:29 We had. It was on the radio. Yeah. IG: 15:31 That is tremendous. DH: 15:32 Yeah. He was, he was so [inaudible]. I had very primitive notions about what a Marxist scholar would believe that I thought he would believe in, you know, the inevitability of Marxism and-and that he would believe that art should be used only for the purposes of revolutionary change. And this guy was so sophisticated that I began to blush- IG: 15:57 Right. DH: 15:57 -as I would raise my objections to him. I mean, it was, he was a remarkable man. And, you know, Rebecca Grajower, I do not know if her name ever came out. There was a lady professor of political science who fell in love with Deutsche and posted a lot of different things in which students can meet with him. And I went over to he had a very modest little apartment in one of the dorms that he was given there. IG: 16:29 That blows me away. [crosstalk] I have never respected that people of that stature would be at Harpur College. DH: 16:35 Well, he was, of course, an unusual situation, because he had been unable to get jobs- IG: 16:40 Right-right. DH: 16:40 -in England, and I guess, probably in those days, a job at a state school New York probably would pay fairly well. A guy named Blair Ewing made it impossible for him to get the job at Harpur, he wrote this denunciation of Deutscher as a Marxist, that kind of turned the tide. Yeah, it is funny. It is unfortunate. Mel Shefftz [Melvin Shefftz, History Department] you never came into touch with, did you? IG: 17:08 No. DH: 17:09 He was a professor at Harpur, uh, died in 2011 who was very much touched by Deutscher--really thought highly of them. And, you know, if you were interested in Deutscher tenure at Harpur, could have told you a lot about him. I just thought he was really he had a first-rate mind. I mean, it is clearly a level above most of the professors we had. We had able professors, but Deutscher was on a level above them. IG: 17:37 I mean, yeah, this is, I even I heard of him, you know, without any Binghamton before Binghamton and I certainly have read Isaiah Berlin's essays on Russian culture, Russian literature, the Hedgehog on the Fox. And I read his I read the biography of him by- DH: 17:59 by Michael Ignatieff [crosstalk] IG: 17:59 [inaudible] Ignatieff and he is now a politician in Canada. DH: 17:59 Well, I think that biography actually talks about-about the episode with Berlin and Deutscher. DH: 18:12 So anyway, that was one of the- IG: 18:15 Tell me. Told me about these meetings with Professor Deutscher outside of the classroom. You said that there were faculty dinners that uh- DH: 18:27 I do not know if they were formal faculty dinners. There were a group of- there were an awful lot of old-line Marxists on the Harpur faculty, but a very different type than I gather exists today. These were people who were scholars, who were, you know, they-they were, they were, they were not people necessarily, who came out of any movement, but they were people who were persuaded that the Marxist analysis was correct. And all of a sudden, one of the leading Marxist intellectuals appears on campus, and in that little world, he was a rock star. So, there were a constant set of dinners and lunches and-and lectures. I mean, he gave a like a seven- or eight-part series of lecture on Marx's theory that were packed, and we had a couple of East European emigres who gave them very spirited objections. And it was intellectually very exciting. I mean, you got a sense of what a genuine first-rate mind was like. IG: 19:39 Well, because they were, you know, they were- their agenda, their intellectual, you know, their philosophy was really informed by lived experience. DH: 19:51 Yeah. IG: 19:51 You know, they lived through the wars, they lived through Marxism. You know, they lived so it was, it was- DH: 19:58 But he was also a man of very deep European culture. IG: 20:01 Yeah. DH: 20:02 Um, and yeah. So. IG: 20:05 So, how was it? How was it to mix with these towering intellects? DH: 20:11 Well, he was very different than-than the normal professor [inaudible] that-that Harpur. I mean, to meet Deutscher would was to be inspired. I mean, even today, at the age of 70, if I had to think of the half dozen most impressive and admirable people that I have met, I mean, I would, I would list him as one. IG: 20:35 Yeah. DH: 20:37 He was- he had a kind of charm, which was overwhelming and which was really hard to describe, because he was not a physically impressive guy. He was this little guy, about five foot three, but was- it comes out a little bit actually, in his books which have this kind of ornate quality to them. No, I love Deutscher, and a lot of other people love Deutscher, and we were all- it would have been great if he could have gotten a permanent position at Binghamton. My relationship with other faculty members was, again, I think, probably a little bit different than it would have been if I had gone to Columbia- DH: 21:19 -in the sense of, you know, these people did not commute from great different distances they lived on or near campus. So, you were able to form some close relations. And I formed a couple that continued until I was in my mid (19)60s, and they were, of course, 20 years older. I do not know if that is what goes on now. IG: 21:21 Right. IG: 21:46 That- you know, it certainly goes on you know, from my experience at the graduate level, professors and their graduate students sometimes, you know, form lifelong relationships, especially if they are proteges of these professors. But at the undergraduate level, it is different, so really unusual. DH: 22:09 It was not a great- there was not a large graduate school presence when I was in an undergrad. So anyway, what can I tell you. IG: 22:21 That is, that is really, I mean, just out of my own curiosity, how did Isaiah Berlin, I mean, he had this atrophied arm, right? DH: 22:29 I do not [inaudible] He had a limp, I thought, but he had some sort of lameness, yeah. IG: 22:33 He had polio. DH: 22:34 How did he, um blacklist- IG: 22:37 No, how did he strike you as an individual? DH: 22:39 Isaiah Berlin, I never met. IG: 22:40 Oh, you never met him. He was not- DH: 22:42 No, I am talking about Isaac Deutscher. IG: 22:43 I understand. But I thought that Isaiah Berlin came to one- DH: 22:47 No-no-no. IG: 22:48 Okay. DH: 22:49 Isaiah Berlin's connection Isaac Deutscher was simply, as I understand it. He had blacklisted him in England. IG: 22:55 I am sorry, right? I am sorry. I thought that he was, at one point, you know, friends and would come to this. I am sorry. Okay, so you said that you know you formed relationships with faculty that lasted over a lifetime. DH: 23:12 Yeah. IG: 23:13 So, who you know? DH: 23:15 Well, all right, so I do not these are names. I do not know if they are going to be familiar. One was Mel Shefftz, who was a professor of European history. Another was a guy named John Hagopian, who was this brilliant but very difficult English professor who, whenever I would meet him after school, was involved in some new affair that had just broke his heart. It DH: 23:44 was overly dramatic about it. Another one was a very odd and ultimately- IG: 23:49 And he would confide in you. DH: 23:50 Yeah, he would, I mean, I think he would confide it in everyone. He is- I want to throw myself. I remember he once said, “I want to throw myself off the Library Tower.” It was- IG: 24:01 Was he that much older than you? Or probably- DH: 24:04 [inaudible] he had been a World War two veteran. I remember him telling stories about World War Two. He was in love with a woman named Betty Aswat Aswad, who may have wound up on the faculty. I am not sure. Yeah, I do not know. There was T. Patterson Brown, who later spent several years in jail for pedophilia. Has his name come up in any of these? IG: 24:31 No. DH: 24:32 He was a charismatic philosophy professor who had been in graduate school at Oxford and was a genuinely brilliant man, but really not a good guy. He actually turned me on to marijuana the first time. He decided that he was a proselytizer for it. He thought that all kinds of- he believed, with Timothy Leary, that it was a gateway to great, new forms of perception. And then he went off and became a cult leader and. Uh, Bruce Leon Goldstein, I remember interviewed me because he was keeping a file on Brown. He wanted to get rid of him. He was the department chair of philosophy. IG: 25:12 That is, yeah, incredible. DH: 25:12 And Brown later went to jail for four or five years when I was an Assistant US Attorney, Brown saw me on TV and wanted me to somehow intervene in his case. I forget what it was exactly that he wanted, but I did a little research, and it turned out the charges were true. So, yeah, Brown was- IG: 25:13 Really colorful. DH: 25:42 Yeah, colorful group of colorful group of people. And I do not remember other--you know, the faculty at Binghamton, those youth was interesting. A lot of them were really very intelligent people, but they were often unproductive. There was always a reason why they were Binghamton rather than at some larger school, and it usually was the fact that smart as they were, they had not written very much, yeah, or they had gotten involved in some field that nobody else was interested in. I remember Robin Oggins, who, I guess, was there until recently, I am not sure- IG: 26:19 And who was she or he? DH: 26:21 Was he. He did his dissertation on falconry, and there was not really a big market for that. IG: 26:29 Yeah, and yet, you know, places like Columbia had many of these people with very niche interests, and they so but that is really interesting. You are the first person to talk about these people. So, you know you meant you talked about how these faculty members made an impression on you, but did the just the closeness of being around these intellects, these academics did that, but did that give you, you know- DH: 27:14 I cannot say that, you know- IG: 27:16 -confidence did that, you know. DH: 27:18 I mean, well, the fact that they treated me as a kind of equal. Even though younger person, and gave me confidence. I had far more confidence that I should have had in those days in any event. IG: 27:30 Why do you say that? DH: 27:31 Well, I mean, because I was like the typical jerk, you know, spouting off in class about stuff that I know nothing about, giving my theory of the universe. IG: 27:41 Well, like what, you know [inaudible] DH: 27:42 I remember we were talking about Brecht and alienation, and it triggered this thing that I started talking about alienation in general, which of course, was not what Brecht meant by alienation at all. And it was only later, when I actually read the assignment that I should have read beforehand, that I realized beforehand, that I realized what a fool I had made of myself. So, I mean, I do not know. And then when I went to law school, University of Chicago, then I met some really serious intellectuals, in a way that my professors at Binghamton were not. I mean, they may have been as intelligent, but they were not as ambitious. They were not as consumed by, you know, the field that they were teaching. IG: 28:29 Right-right. But in some way, it is kind of a softer introduction to this world. DH: 28:36 I am not unhappy about going to [inaudible] I am in Binghamton. I had a lot of fun. IG: 28:39 And, you know, so-so was there any, were you involved in any kind of student activism? DH: 28:48 No, you know, it is funny that you should- the activism at Harpur in those days was almost all about the war. There was almost, I do not remember any civil rights activism. There was a group that I belonged to that we had a Saturday morning program for inner city the extent that there were inner city kids in those days at-at, in Binghamton. And, you know, everyone in his heart supported it, but the real demonstrations and the rallies and the trips to Washington were about the war. There were not many black students in Binghamton in those years. I mean, I only remember a handful, and a couple of those were foreign students. Yeah, and the woman's movement did not really become big until after I left. I mean, maybe in 1968 when I graduated, it was beginning to percolate up upward. But it was, it was the war that 90 percent I mean, the free I remember in (19)64 when I first started, when the free speech movement in Berkeley started, there was a rally that was in sympathy to the free speech movement. And there was some, I mean, I remember there were restrictions on women in the dorms how late they could stay out. And that caused, yeah, and I remember Bruce Dearing, the president, trying to come up with some justification for this, obviously not believing in it himself and but there was, it was, there was the stuff that concerns campuses today was not present on-on Binghamton campus in those days on the Harford campus. It was the war that consumed everyone. And I met my first- I mean, I-I met in my first year, I met two guys lived in my dorm who were returning GIs, who had been in Vietnam. IG: 28:53 Did they talk about the war? DH: 30:03 They did mostly the difference because I was 16 when I started this difference between a 16-year-old and [crosstalk] IG: 31:18 It is huge. DH: 31:19 Yeah, especially at 20. Well, I was just about to turn 17, so I- but and a 20-year-old, or a 21-year-old who had been to Vietnam was really just a different category entirely. So, I was just mostly impressed by these guys. They seemed, you know, really grown-up people. And I remember gradually how the Vietnam thing began to progress and how students began to get angrier and angrier. In the very beginning, all of the petitions and all the speeches were how this is inconsistent with American tradition. And as time went on, it was, you know, American imperialism and stuff like that. And then I came, when I went into the army myself, and when I got out of the army, I came back to Binghamton for a year. And I mean, at that point the- IG: 32:12 Tell us about that. I mean, you went to the army. DH: 32:15 I was drafted. I went to this Columbia School of Journalism. I was drafted into the army. I spent two years in Germany. I got out. I had not any particular plans. I had an idea of going to law school, but there was a period of a year before I could get into law school, and I decided, well, I will go back for masters at Binghamton. And I went back and they would and this was three or four years after I graduated, and the school had been transformed, there was a much bigger graduate presence. IG: 32:45 So what year was this? DH: 32:47 This was (19)70 the (19)71 to (19)72 and the there was some violence. There was a larger black presence. There were some demonstrations the basketball team boycotted, asking that the coach be removed. It was just a different place. I mean, it was a different campus, and the Vietnam War had really become the focus of a tremendous amount of student activities. I remember Senator Goodell [Charles E. Goodell] --was that his name spoke on the campus. He had said, you have to get out, and we ought to get out in 90 days. And he was picketed by the Spartacus League, because why should they wait 90 days? [laughter] That is really what they said. Yeah, but it was just a very big change in that short period of time. And then, and of course, then the women's movement had begun to really take hold in the minds of a lot of women. So. IG: 33:54 So, tell us about your career. I am not speaking in the royal way. I say us, because people will be listening to us. So, what, tell us about your career, you went to Columbia Journalism School, then you went to the army. Did you have any was there any idea of making a career in journalism at some point? DH: 34:22 There was, but after a year in journalism school, I felt this is not for me. IG: 34:24 Why not? DH: 34:32 I just felt what I wanted to do was feature writing, and what basically exploded was the new journalism as a form, I mean, the Mailer books, the Armies of the Night- IG: 34:47 Right-right. DH: 34:48 Miami, and the Siege of Chicago. And that was something that I really would like to have done, but I just felt it was emotionally overwhelming to do that sort of thing. And. Also required a tremendous amount of talent- IG: 35:04 And time. DH: 35:05 -and time, and I- you know, unless, like Mailer, you were willing to take cocaine, marijuana and drink yourself after death, it was not something that I thought you could do. So, I went into the Army. I was a law clerk in the army, and the idea began to coalesce between that and the fact that I always was around the courts when I was a kid--of being a lawyer, I went out, I spent a year, I got a Master's at Binghamton in history, and then I went to law school. And after law school, I went to work for a big Wall Street firm for a couple of years, and then went to the Justice Department, where I was a federal prosecutor for 70 years, 70 years, excuse me, for seven years. Yeah, seven years would be a long time as a prosecutor. And I was, I started off in the antitrust division, and then I was assigned to Mariel, Florida. There was a big boat lift from Cuba then, and there were a lot of prosecutions, and then I came up to New York, and ever since I left the government, I have been doing defense work. I, for time, I tried a lot of murder cases. Now, at the age of 70, I spend a lot of time writing letters saying, I am shocked by what your client has done to my client, in which trigger a letter back saying, no, no, you have it backwards. It was what my client has done to their client. So, my practice is not quite as interesting as it once was, but- IG: 36:34 Maybe it is time to- DH: 36:36 Segue into something else. IG: 36:37 Yeah. Well, I mean, continue this, but you know, think, think of the new journalism feature pieces that you are planning to write. DH: 36:44 What I would like to do is, I mean, if I had $10 billion, I would divide it in half, give half of it to prison reform and half of it to saving the great apes. But not having $10 billion. IG: 37:01 You write letters. DH: 37:02 I write letters so. IG: 37:05 How do you think your classmates or your you know; professors would remember you from that time? I mean, you describe yourself a little bit- DH: 37:18 Well, you know, I think most of the except for the few classmates that I remain friends with, if any of them remembered me at all, it would be because I gave speeches at the stepping on the coat ceremony. Is that still going on? IG: 37:30 I think so. DH: 37:31 Yeah, so I do not really. I mean, I would hope that they would remember me as someone who gave amusing speeches, the people who I was close with probably remember me as someone who was smart and crazy somehow out of control, I think. IG: 37:52 How out of control? DH: 37:53 Oh, I mean, not anything that today would be considered a very big deal. But I did not go to classes. I smoked a lot of after deep [inaudible], a lot of marijuana. I mean- IG: 38:09 You still got A's. DH: 38:11 No, I got A's in some subjects, history, I did not do well in chemistry, which you actually had to learn something. I mean, and, and, I do not know. I mean, it is funny. I, there the there was only one person who went on to be a star in my year, and that is Camille Paglia. And I barely knew Camille at all. IG: 38:35 Was she in any of your classes? DH: 38:37 No. I mean, I guess we knew each other vaguely because I wrote for the paper and because Camille was the valedictorian of the class. I do not know that anybody else in our year went on to any particular degree of celebrity. I do not know when I do meet people after 30 years that I have not been in contact with the most common remark is, you know, you said to me, X, 30 years ago, but I forgive you. So, I gather that I was a pretty rude kid back then. DH: 39:14 Yeah. I mean, I hope it was something more that, you know, you illuminated Shakespeare for me, but that is not what I get. What do you see a common thread in the people that you have interviewed Is there a quality of Harpur student that is different than just the ordinary person who grew up in the (19)60s? IG: 39:14 Yeah. IG: 39:34 I think that, well, the commonalities are that they, many of them think that they received the kind of, you know, education that you would expect of a small, elite college. DH: 39:56 Yeah. IG: 39:57 So especially the early graduates thought that, you know, they had just an academically superior experience. Um, as far as their and also, you know, as a demographic, many of the many of you are from the New York City area or from Long Island. I mean, that still remains true. But people have done such interesting things. Some-some, you know, some have had just good careers. But, you know, there are a number of people who I-I spoke with somebody just a few weeks ago who was this ethics professor at Columbia Medical Center, and he has written books on AIDS and-and collaborated with the president of AmfAR, Mathilde Krim, I think, for you know, but he so he became quite prominent. I am going to be meeting with somebody who is, you know, one of the head researchers at the NIH, and I forget what area of neuroscience, but, you know, I just, I am going to be seeing for another person is the head of her own nonprofit, you know, so-so there is, you know, there is a range. DH: 41:32 Right. It is funny, you should mention demographics, because the sort of unstated, adventures of my early years at Harpur was meeting people from outside the New York City area, and I never really done that before. And I had a friend, Willie Malchek, who was a bingy, as we called them, who said the same was true in reverse, that they were a little bit afraid. They were told that all these kids from downstate coming up who are very smart and ambitious and but in fact, the differences between downstate and upstate were sufficiently small that it really did not hinder friendships. I mean, it is funny that that should have been an issue. I mean, considering the cultural clashes that I suppose exist now, yeah, no, I met people from Herkimer. I had not even known that that was a locale. IG: 42:31 I know exactly where that is Herkimer. DH: 42:33 Where is it? Is that in- IG: 42:35 By Utica, it is by Utica. So, you know. But do you think that these cultural differences were overcome in time, or your maybe not cultural differences, but your relationships were- DH: 42:50 Yeah, I do not think that they were sufficiently large to be impediments. I met believing Christians for the first time in my life, and that was interesting to me, and it kind of maybe prepared me for the army, where I actually met people who thought that unless I converted, I was going to go to hell, and were not nasty about it, but sort of anguished about it. I mean, so that was one big, one big difference in that. But I mean, as I say, there were no oh, oh. And for me, coming from an all-boys school, it took me a year or two to get my head around the fact that there were girls in class, which had not, I mean, there was only one or two women teachers at Stuyvesant, and there were no girls in the school. So, it was- IG: 43:35 That is right, it was a boy school. DH: 43:36 It was a boy’s school in those days, yeah. So that was something that was a bit of, I mean, it was, it was just interesting. I could not believe it. I was happy about it. But at the same time, it just is not this against some rule. And I do not, I have there were some women on the faculty. I took many more than in law school. We only had one woman in my law school, professor. IG: 44:10 What I am thinking because you have, you have answered many of the questions that I was going to ask. So, you know what-what do you what are the most important lessons that you learned from this period in your life? How did it open? DH: 44:34 Yeah, I think that is important lessons. I do not know. I think of them in lessons I found because I have a tendency to withdraw and isolate myself. IG: 44:44 Right. DH: 44:45 I think that the lesson is that, in fact, the opposite approach of engaging in stuff, even if you are not super talented and not going to be preeminent, is a much shorter. Way to satisfaction, fulfillment than withdrawing. You know, it is funny that is so long ago, I think of it almost like Ivanhoe. I mean, it seems it is 50 years ago. I mean, it-it has a kind of shine for me those years. I mean, not only because of my youth at the time, but because it was just so much simpler. The country was so much simpler, and, um, it was fun. I mean, we played football on the lawn, and there were tennis courts, and it was a good time to be alive and to go to school. IG: 45:40 Right. What preoccupied you during those years? Do you remember? DH: 45:46 Oh, I think the things that preoccupied, I mean, I felt that was short. I mean I remember; I mean global warming; I suppose a certain dignity being wishing that you were three inches taller does not. Um, same things that preoccupy, no, I had a tremendous crush on a girl who I now in retrospect, see was kind of bewildered and puzzled as to how to gently reject me. And Nancy Halper, who, who I have not spoken to in 50 years. I did not. I, in fact, the people that I was friendly with did not date until maybe our senior year. IG: 46:34 I think that is because of the- DH: 46:36 I think why I do not have any idea why that is, I think- IG: 46:40 Maybe it was not. I do not either. DH: 46:45 I do not think that that is, that is not, I do not think that that was typical of the entire population. It was, I suppose that I select, perhaps I selected friends- IG: 46:55 Right. DH: 46:55 -who had these qualities. I mean, I do not really know, but for some reason, the guys that I were I was friendly with, were kind of backward and in-in dating. And they certainly they were certainly not as free and as natural around women as it seems to me kids are today, nor were they as free and natural around people of different ethnicities as kids often seem to be today. I mean, there was a provincial quality. I suppose although we thought of ourselves as New York sophisticates, there was a provincial quality that we had. And then, I mean, I had various neuroses, as a lot of kids do. And I suppose my friends tended to be people who could accommodate that. Perhaps had some neurotics of their own. But in any event, we were a very backward group in terms of socially. We would just sort of go, walk around- IG: 47:53 Kind of socializing, because apparently you were quiet, you know, you were quite adept you were socializing with these intellectual professors. DH: 48:06 Right-right, okay, but it was a more of a cerebral kind of thing. IG: 48:09 Right-right. DH: 48:10 Yeah. And there was a big dorm life in those days. I do not remember. My recollection is that when, at least when we started, the dorms were single sex. And then they it was a big deal when they opened coed dorms. IG: 48:24 Right. DH: 48:25 So, there was a big dorm life in the evenings. IG: 48:29 Right. DH: 48:30 Usually, you know, amounting to jumping over chairs and stuff. IG: 48:34 Yeah, and so-so you said you smoked pot a lot, and- DH: 48:40 Only after I was turned on by Brown. IG: 48:44 So where did you smoke? In your dorm room or in-in- DH: 48:47 No, I, you know, I mean, I may be mixing up times here, when I was in the army, I certainly took a lot of- IG: 48:55 Yeah. DH: 48:55 -it was basically hash then. IG: 48:57 Yeah. DH: 48:58 In Harpur, I did not really smoke that much, but Brown turned me on. There was certain amount of it that went on in the in the in the dorms, not by any standard, a tremendous amount. But I did not drink, and there were not a lot of wild drinking parties. We did not have fraternities. We had some weird thing called social clubs. I do not know if they still have them that were just this very pale imitation of fraternities. IG: 49:29 Yeah. So, did you belong to any of the social clubs? DH: 49:33 No, and I remember a bunch of us mocking one guy who joined a group called the Odeon’s and they gave him some bizarre tasks. He had to get signatures written backwards, or I forget what it was, but no one ever took that particularly seriously. The big thing was living off campus that was considered the really- IG: 49:59 Being semi-independent DH: 50:01 Yeah, there was a sense of emancipation when we did that. Finally, you were not on for the first time in your life, you were really not being monitored closely by anybody. So, I did not. DH: 50:01 What kind of music did you listen to? DH: 50:10 You know, I was late on that. I seem to have been late in everything. I remember in 1967 learning about the band, but I was late on Dylan, who I now love, but I remember somebody finally got highway 61 and listening to it and not being able to make head or tails of it. And it was only, frankly, it was a girl that I was dating many years later who really made me realize what a genius Dylan was. And I mean, I like the blues. I like the Butterfield blues band. I do not know if you know any of these names, but I was, yeah, I was not involved in any particularly avant garde stuff we had- I remember the people who came up were fairly eclectic bunch, Lovin' Spoonful played at Harpur, Buffy Sainte-Marie and I do not remember anybody else who had a name coming up when I was there. IG: 51:17 Did you organize trips to New York City as a group? DH: 51:20 No, did I organize? I am incapable of organizing anything. Yeah. I mean, we would go to New York City- IG: 51:27 Yeah. DH: 51:27 And once went to Washington for March against the war. But that was that there was a big political thing, whether or not the student union funds could be used for political purpose. Some of the conservative students were unhappy with that. Anyway. IG: 51:50 You did not, you did not go to any of the clubs, for example, in New York City to listen to music. DH: 51:57 No, I remember when I was at Stuyvesant. I remembered the-the I was in Stuyvesant (19)61 through (19)64 and Stuyvesant was on the Lower East Side, and the sort of Dave Van Ronk folk music scene began to sort of get and I was aware of the fact that that was developing, and I was aware of the fact that there was this guy named Dylan who was on the scene. But no, I was not deeply involved in any of that, nor was I particularly nuts about the Beatles I was in. I guess, my own little world in those days. It was only later that I really began. And I never really went to clubs. I mean all that much, but I mean I later I would go to concerts. So, I went to a couple of Dylan concerts and stuff. Yeah. I mean, was music a big thing for most of the other people that you have interviewed? IG: 52:43 Some-some, just some. DH: 52:50 Did you see the Vietnam series and on PBS? IG: 52:55 I actually, I am afraid to say that I did not. I am completely aware of it. DH: 52:59 Okay, but one of the most stirring things about that series was the music that they played, which was very well chosen. And really, you realize really, first of all how much very intelligent good music was written in those days, but also music's odd power to just evoke the whole atmosphere of a period 40 years ago. If you did you meet your mother, by the way, she lives nearby. IG: 53:26 My mother? DH: 53:27 Yeah. IG: 53:27 I am staying over at my mother's house. DH: 53:31 No-no, you emailed me. You saying this will give me an opportunity to- IG: 53:35 Yes-yes, I am staying yeah-yeah. I mean she-she had she had guests. She has guests coming to her house frequently, so she could not do that to him. That is why I came now. So-so any lessons, and not any lessons, any advice that you want to impart to students, future students, listening to these tapes about you know, what they what they need to bring to their undergraduate to their college experience? DH: 54:22 Well, I guess the advice it is always giving to students, which is that you are at a unique time in your life when you have resources available to you that will not be available to you elsewhere. There will be other advantages that you will have later in life that you do not have now, and you may have greater confidences, but you will never again have the opportunity to be in theater productions, to perhaps do film work, to write for newspapers, to do a range of activities that are professionalized in the rest of life, and which you just become an onlooker. So, one piece of advice I have is make use of it, and also by making use of it, you will often discover interests that you did not know you had, talents that you did not suspect that you had. You know the idea of going off and in a solitary way knowing yourself is implausible to me, because you often only know yourself by engaging in an activity and then finding that in fact, it is an activity that you love. So, all my advice would simply be, make use of the resources that are available to you. Do not despair if you are unhappy for a period of time or do not fit in, because that is often just part of the experience of being young, and enjoy Binghamton. IG: 55:55 Happy, a happy, happiest memory of Binghamton. DH: 56:00 Happy. Happiest memory of Binghamton. This is embarrassing to say. I cannot tell you what the happiest memory. IG: 56:05 Okay. DH: 56:09 But I remember throwing got into my head. There were two things that I remember that I cannot tell you. One is I was a big fan of Mickey Mantle is a name that probably is not familiar to many people anymore, but he was going to hit his eight and I made this boast in public, I will go anywhere on earth to see his 500th home-home run. And it turns out that he hit his 499th just before there was a Yankee Road trip to Kansas City, and the baseball team of Harpur gave me the number seven uniform, and their collection was taken up, and I went to Kansas City to see Mickey hit his 500th home run. So that is one happy memory, even though, but he turned out not to hit it there, but hit it in Yankee Stadium, three blocks from where I lived. And a second happy memory is the giant seafood gala that my roommates and I threw in our senior year. And I do not know why, but it was just an ecstatically enjoyable experience getting the lobster from the seafood mark, rather brutally throwing it in the boiling water and just having friends over. And I will tell you now the happiest moment, but it is embarrassing. It was when I thought this woman, Nancy Hopper, loved me, something that I was later disabused of. But for the moment, I was very happy. All right. Well, I hope that no one hears that late. I hope that the [crosstalk] IG: 57:47 I thank you so much. It was- DH: 57:51 Very nice. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David S. Hammer Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammer, David S. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource David has worked as a trial lawyer for more than 30 years and was engaged in civil and criminal litigation. He served in the U.S. Justice Department in the Antitrust Division and as an Assistant United States Attorney in Miami and in Manhattan. For the last two decades he has worked in private practice in New York. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context David Hammer.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-02-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 57:52 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8db33061672de922b958b947995e5bbf.mp3 bccad46922c8ac6893060d19d53d70d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Amy Weintraub Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Amy Weintraub, PhD, led the Center for Victim Support at Harlem Hospital Center for 25 years and assessed patients with a history of domestic violence and sexual assault. She currently teaches courses on these subjects at Mercy College. She was a sociology major at Harpur College. She was a National Institute of Mental Health Fellow. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni working with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni working with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Amy M. Weintraub Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 9 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) AW: 00:02 Okay, so we begin with your identifying yourself, who you are, where we are, and the date of the interview. AW: 00:12 My name is Amy Malzberg Weintraub, and this is an oral history project being conducted by SUNY Binghamton, and we are in my apartment at 95 West, 95th Street. IG: 00:25 Okay, thank you. So, can I call you Amy or Dr. Weintraub? AW: 00:31 You can call me Amy. IG: 00:32 Okay, so Amy, tell us where you grew up. AW: 00:36 I grew up in Albany, New York. IG: 00:38 Oh, who were your parents? AW: 00:43 Dr. Benson Malzberg, and my mother was Rose Malzberg Hershberg, yeah, Rose Hershberg Malzberg, IG: 00:50 Okay, and so your father was a doctor in? AW: 00:57 My father got his PhD at Columbia in sociology. IG: 00:59 Oh, so- AW: 01:00 He also studied in Paris. He got a fellowship to study continue their studies in Paris. So my father spoke French fluently. IG: 01:07 Oh, very good. It was very interesting. So-so tell us about what your parents did. AW: 01:13 My father was a director at the department Mental Hygiene. He studied the incidence and prevalence of mental illness in New York State, and he published a great deal. And my mother had been a teacher in the Albany Public School System. When she married, she was working for the New York State Department, I think it was the accounting department. And then when I was in the eighth grade, my father retired and became a principal investigator with a grant that was funded by Department of Mental-Mental Health, Department of Health and Mental Health, Federal Department of Health and Mental Health. My mother became his administrative assistant. IG: 01:57 Oh, and this was all in Albany. AW: 02:00 Albany, New York, yep. IG: 02:01 Okay, so were your parents--can I ask how many generations ago did they come to the United States? AW: 02:12 Well, my father was born here, his mother was born here, also. IG: 02:15 Yes. AW: 02:15 It was his um, it was his grandfather who migrated, I believe, from Poland. IG: 02:21 I see, I see. AW: 02:21 My mother was a year old when she came here. IG: 02:25 From? AW: 02:25 Poland. IG: 02:26 From Poland. So, I assumed that, since your parents were highly educated, that the expectations of you were that you would go on to college. AW: 02:41 Well, I did not assume I was going to get my PhD. I did cer- I decided that on my own, but they sort of expect me to get a college education. IG: 02:48 Yes, and so they valued education. AW: 02:51 Oh, they certainly did. IG: 02:52 Very-very much. AW: 02:53 They used to correct my English. I used to write them letters from Harpur. We called it Harpur College then and I made spelling mistakes, and they used to write me back letters telling me just how you spell the word. [laughs] IG: 03:07 Did that- I mean, what did that irritate you? AW: 03:12 Was kind of cute. IG: 03:13 Did you- AW: 03:15 I do that with my own children? IG: 03:17 Oh! Did you- I have done it with my daughter. AW: 03:20 Okay. IG: 03:21 So-so-so did you have siblings? AW: 03:24 Yes, I have a twin sister, and I had no I had an older sister. IG: 03:29 And the expectations for them were the same as- AW: 03:36 Absolutely-absolutely. IG: 03:39 So what were your reasons for going to Harpur College? AW: 03:45 Well, Harpur type was not my first choice? IG: 03:47 No, okay. AW: 03:48 My first choice is Brandeis University. IG: 03:50 Uh huh. AW: 03:52 Because my mother had been part of a Brandeis University chapter. I know Brandeis University just hit my imagination. IG: 03:58 Yeah. AW: 03:59 But I was not accepted. IG: 04:00 You were not accepted? AW: 04:01 No, I think three people from Albany applied, and only one was accepted. So I had to find another college, and of a fellow student of mine, Stuart Lewis, on his- parents night and I went to the middle school, which was a private school, and one of Stuart's parents happened to mention Harpur College and my mother and father. So mother [inaudible] "Why do not you apply to Harpur College"? So I did, but it was not half the time. It was not my first choice, but by the time I graduated from Harpur College, I realized what a great school it is, and I am very glad I went there. But when my own children enter college, I- it was so important to me to go to a private school, because, of course, SUNY is a public university, right? IG: 04:47 Yes. AW: 04:48 And although it was a great university, I got the most [inaudible] education you could possibly get at a school. I wanted my own children go to a private school. So my son ended up going to Union College. My daughter went to New York City. She went to Marymount, Manhattan. IG: 05:07 Well, so Harpur College was not your first choice, but you had other SUNYs to choose from. So why did you choose Harpur and not Albany or SUNY [crosstalk] AW: 05:24 Oh, first, I did not want to go to Albany because I grew up in Albany. So I want to go away to college. IG: 05:29 I see. AW: 05:30 So I had to pick a school that was not no, not anywhere near Albany. And there are other schools but my-my older sister, went to Russell Sage. IG: 05:40 I see. AW: 05:40 But that was like 20-minute drive from the house, so [inaudible] was not going to go to Russell Sage. IG: 05:49 So what was the reputation that you knew of about Harpur College at the time? What reputation- AW: 05:56 I did not know that much about it, but I knew it was a top-notch school. IG: 05:59 Yeah. AW: 06:00 I do not know where I got the information from, but I knew it was a top-notch school. It was, it still is, the elite of the SUNY system. IG: 06:07 Oh, the SUNYs. Absolutely, it is. Um, so- AW: 06:10 That we were told when we got there, look around, look to the left, look to the right, because some of you would not make it through Harpur College. IG: 06:18 Really? AW: 06:18 Really. IG: 06:19 Who told you this? AW: 06:20 The dean. IG: 06:21 The dean. AW: 06:22 Yep. IG: 06:23 When you first arrived? AW: 06:24 Yeah, we had a gathering of the first-year students. IG: 06:28 So, what-what do you remember any of the first impressions that Harpur made on you- the campus of the- AW: 06:34 It was a beautiful campus, and it is right, that is the Susquehanna River. IG: 06:39 Yes. AW: 06:40 Floats in right down to the bottom of the campus. So I remember every morning walking to my classes and seeing- being able to see the river, and that was, I was very impressed by that. And I hope there was about there were mountains behind the campus. And in the springtime, my twin sister and I and a friend of ours went hiking and the mountains behind the college. And that was that was lots of fun. IG: 07:05 Just tell us for the record, what were the years that you went to Harpur College. AW: 07:11 1964 1960. IG: 07:14 So, you were one of the earlier recruits to Harpur College. AW: 07:18 What do you mean? IG: 07:19 Well, because, you know, it came into existence when in the Harpur College in the (19)50s. Or? AW: 07:32 That is true. That is true. By time I got to the college, it was already new campus. IG: 07:37 It was already a new campus. AW: 07:39 It was a new campus. Yep. IG: 07:40 I see. So did you live in? Were there- you know, what were the dorm situations like? Did you have a roommate? AW: 07:49 I had a roommate. IG: 07:50 You had a roommate, and the dorms were segregated at the time. AW: 07:54 You got the [inaudible] coming from the main client campus. AW: 07:59 Yes. AW: 07:59 The men's dormitories, I think, are on the left. IG: 08:02 Uh huh. AW: 08:02 And the girls are on the right. IG: 08:05 So, and you liked the-the dormitories, and where do you remember any of the I-I heard- told that there were different kinds of restrictions on curfews- AW: 08:19 Of course- IG: 08:19 -women then there will- AW: 08:20 You had to be back by 12 o'clock. IG: 08:22 Yeah, every night, or just on weekends. AW: 08:26 I think the weekends, it was either 12 o'clock or one o'clock. IG: 08:28 Yeah. AW: 08:29 And the course, during the week, I think they closed the doors by 10 o'clock at night. AW: 08:35 No, it did not bother me at all. IG: 08:35 And did you think that-that? Did you think anything of the curfew- IG: 08:36 It did not bother- AW: 08:37 I am currently talking about the (19)60s, right? IG: 08:37 Yeah. AW: 08:37 I am trying to go to college now, course, would be a major problem IG: 08:47 Of course, of course, of course. So, um, did you make friends? AW: 08:52 Of course, I did. IG: 08:53 Yeah. And so were your friends, like-like, you from the Albany area, or they were from- AW: 09:01 The only person from the Albany area was Stuart Lewis. IG: 09:05 Uh huh. AW: 09:05 Everybody else came from across New York state. IG: 09:09 Right. But the majority came from New York City and Long Island. AW: 09:14 Yeah, my first roommate came from the Bronx. IG: 09:16 Yeah. AW: 09:16 And my second roommate, Ann Goldman, grew up in Brooklyn. IG: 09:21 Did you have opportunity to visit the city? AW: 09:26 In college? IG: 09:27 While you were in college, or before? Did AW: 09:29 I have relatives who lived in New York. So I see before I entered college, of course, I was in college, I came to New York. IG: 09:35 Yeah. AW: 09:36 That is when- I went to Brown after Harpur College. IG: 09:39 Right. AW: 09:39 And I got my masters at Brown, and that is why I want to come to New York because I knew New York. IG: 09:43 Yes, okay, so-so you were no stranger. So there was no cultural, you know, difference that you noticed between New York City, because that is also something that you know interviewees that I speak to uh, from that, from that period, talk about that there was kind of a cultural difference between people from more rural parts of the state- AW: 10:08 No, I knew New York. That is why I wanted to come here. [crosstalk] going to some place like Boston, I did not know anybody in Boston. AW: 10:16 I have relatives in New York. IG: 10:16 Right. IG: 10:17 I see. AW: 10:17 So coming to New York was, um, very natural for me. AW: 10:20 I am from upstate. [crosstalk] IG: 10:20 Of course. AW: 10:20 Well, I think- IG: 10:20 Very natural for you. Okay, so did you have but did you notice differences between, you know, upstate students and New York City students? IG: 10:20 Whatever the difference is. AW: 10:28 Probably not very prejudiced, but I think the New York City students were a bit more aggressive. IG: 10:41 Yeah, a bit more aggressive. AW: 10:43 [inaudible] others? IG: 10:45 Not in those terms, but that there were differences. I mean, so they were more aggressive, and in which way? AW: 10:54 They were real quick to raise their hands. IG: 10:57 Yeah. AW: 10:58 They took over more organizational leadership. IG: 11:00 Uh huh. AW: 11:01 There is a, I know there is a Democrat- Democratic Club, and I think the leadership is from New York City. IG: 11:07 I see, were you involved in any of the clubs yourself? AW: 11:11 No, I was only involved in Jewish program. IG: 11:13 What was a Jewish program like at the time? AW: 11:16 Well, it is certainly a lot better than it was when I was there. First of all, my sister and I went to synagogue every Saturday because we had done that in Albany. So of course, we continue doing it. And Binghamton, I still do it. I am a member of a congregation in New York City. IG: 11:30 Yeah. So what was that like? Describe to us what that congregation was like, where you met and um- AW: 11:38 Well, it was a very small congregation. There was, they were located in downtown Binghamton. Now they have moved to Vestal. I see, I know they have a new building. IG: 11:48 That is right. So you would travel to Binghamton from- AW: 11:53 I took the bus [inaudible] from the Student Union. IG: 11:55 Uh huh. AW: 11:56 And stopped right in Binghamton like and maybe two blocks in the synagogue. IG: 12:02 What was the name of the congregation? AW: 12:05 I do not have no idea. IG: 12:05 You do not remember. So it was a small. AW: 12:09 It was very small. IG: 12:10 It was very small from-from people in the town, or from students. Essentially. AW: 12:14 No, we were the only students who went. IG: 12:16 But it was a congregation of people from Binghamton? AW: 12:19 I would say they had maybe, at 25 to 35 people had service on a Saturday. IG: 12:26 At most. AW: 12:28 Unless there was a Bar Mitzvah. IG: 12:29 I see, I see. And so what do you remember? Were it? What, where it was in, downtown- AW: 12:38 Well, I remember how to get there, but I remember the street. There was a hotel in Binghamton. It was a Sheraton. I think. IG: 12:44 Okay, so it still exists, I think. AW: 12:46 And I think we walked passes the Sheraton took a right-hand turn. IG: 12:50 I see, I see. AW: 12:51 That is the synagogue. IG: 12:52 So what do you remember of Binghamton? This the city of the time? Did- was it- did it strike you as rural, or was it- AW: 13:03 Well, obviously, I come from over New York, which is not a well now Norman, New York has definitely changed. IG: 13:09 Yeah. AW: 13:10 We have the state office buildings downtown, yeah, and so there are more restaurants and much more to do in Albany, New York now, but Binghamton was very rural. I think it still is. IG: 13:22 Was it in comparison to Albany? Was it more rural? AW: 13:27 More rural? Yes. IG: 13:27 Yes. So-so you have the worship activity, did you have any kind of community involvement outside of that. AW: 13:45 Well, I sang in the choir. IG: 13:48 Attendance. Oh, I see. AW: 13:50 I sang in this choir at Milne. I went to the Milne school. I sang of the choir at Harpur College. IG: 13:54 Oh, well, so tell us about that. AW: 13:56 Well, I do not- IG: 13:57 Tell me about it. AW: 13:58 I really do not remember the various songs that we sang. But do remember we gave a concert once in one of the high schools, and I remember getting in a bus and going to the concert to perform. IG: 14:08 Do you remember anything about the repertoire? Was it classical music? AW: 14:12 It was classical. IG: 14:14 It was classical. What-what kind of- so you were studying music? Were you? AW: 14:19 No, I-I played piano when I was in high school. IG: 14:23 I see. AW: 14:23 But I quit when I was, like, in 11th grade. Well, we have a piano here. My husband's a great pianist. He entertains me all the time. IG: 14:30 Oh, well. AW: 14:32 But I could barely get two notes on the piano now. But I love to sing. So when I sang at the Harpur into the um, I sang in the Milne school choir. I sang in my synagogue choir. IG: 14:41 Yeah. AW: 14:42 And I sang at the Harpur College choir. IG: 14:44 Did you sing, Alto, Soprano? AW: 14:46 Alto. IG: 14:47 Alto, I can tell by your voice. Okay. So what other activity- well, first of all, tell us, what was the program of your- what was the what was your major? [crosstalk] AW: 15:01 My father was a sociology major. IG: 15:02 Yes. AW: 15:03 So obviously I had a bench for sociology. IG: 15:07 Yes. AW: 15:07 So I became a sociology major. IG: 15:09 And tell us about you know, the program of your study. What? What did you find that interesting? AW: 15:14 I love sociology. I have a PhD in sociology. IG: 15:18 So what-what kinds of things about studying sociology appealed to you at Harpur College. What did you learn? AW: 15:26 I was learning about sociology is a study of society, right? IG: 15:30 Yes. AW: 15:30 So I learned all about a society, particularly American society, by studying sociology. IG: 15:37 Okay, so in general terms and more. You know what-what were you learning at the time? Do you remember what-what kinds of things were you learning about America? AW: 15:46 I had a professor today of course on a Soviet Union [inaudible] still existed. I took a course on American sociology, Richard Hamilton, and would discuss America being a melting pot. IG: 15:47 Yes. AW: 15:47 I remember that class very well because he made a comment about the Yiddish newspapers. IG: 16:07 Yes. AW: 16:07 Yiddish newspapers played a very important role in acculturating American Jews to American society. So I made that point when my grandfather was a Hebrew scholar. IG: 16:19 Oh. AW: 16:20 And he had no use for the Yiddish papers. He read it Hebrew papers. IG: 16:24 Right. AW: 16:24 So I remember my mother made a comment my father had no use for the Yiddish papers, whereupon my father hit the roof, because Yiddish papers were written his household. IG: 16:34 Right. AW: 16:34 He said, "Your grandfather was wrong. It played very important." He confirmed what I had learned in class. British newspapers played a very important role in enabling American Jews to become American. IG: 16:44 Right-right. AW: 16:46 So I remember that class very well. IG: 16:49 Do you, I mean, this is just of-of attention to little bit. But do you remember any Yiddish newspapers being around at the time in the (19)50s and the (19)60s? IG: 17:02 The forward. Was still written in English? AW: 17:02 The forward. AW: 17:03 [inaudible] IG: 17:04 Yeah. Was still written in Yiddish. AW: 17:05 Was still written in Yiddish. The fact I asked my mother wants to teach me Yiddish. IG: 17:10 Yeah. AW: 17:10 Because they spoke Yiddish in her household. IG: 17:12 Uh huh. Oh. AW: 17:14 We had maybe one or two lessons, and I gave up because it was the same letters in Hebrew, but totally different vocabulary. IG: 17:20 Right. AW: 17:21 And I could not. I simply could not learn it. My husband came from a family, they speak Yiddish. IG: 17:24 Yeah. AW: 17:24 So he-he, maybe he cannot speak it, but he has a much better vocabulary than I do. IG: 17:33 So-so was there, you know, an act of Yiddish life in-at the time of your growing up in New York City? AW: 17:40 No. IG: 17:40 That was already gone. It was already, you know, people were assimilated. AW: 17:44 There was nobody-nobody who really knew Yiddish. IG: 17:46 No. AW: 17:46 Nobody. IG: 17:47 Nobody. AW: 17:47 I am sure there are people who knew, but nobody spoke it. IG: 17:50 Well, I know that there was, there was a center at Columbia, YIVO was- AW: 17:54 There is. IG: 17:55 And there-there still is. AW: 17:57 YIVO is now part of the Jewish history. IG: 18:00 I see. So it is [inaudible] AW: 18:00 Something of the Jewish history on 16th Street. IG: 18:03 I see. AW: 18:04 But when I went to Hebrew, when I grew up in Albany, New York, Hebrew was a language that we were all supposed to learn. IG: 18:11 Right. AW: 18:12 So I am able to speak Hebrew. IG: 18:15 Were you able to I mean, we are going off tangent? But this is very interesting to me. So did you have a chance to speak sort of a lot, you know a Hebrew you, I see you have paintings of Israel. Did you have occasion to speak Hebrew in Israel? AW: 18:36 I have been to Israel 14 times. IG: 18:38 And did you speak Hebrew? AW: 18:39 I speak Hebrew all the time. IG: 18:41 All the time, fluently. So it was not a book, language that you know? AW: 18:45 Not a book. But I spoke as much as I spoke Hebrew, they only answered me in English. IG: 18:49 I see, I see. AW: 18:50 They picked up my American accent. IG: 18:52 I see, I see, I understand. AW: 18:55 I love the language. I speak it all. IG: 18:56 Yes, okay, do you read? AW: 19:00 Do I read Hebrew? IG: 19:01 I do. IG: 19:01 Yes. IG: 19:01 Yes. So you continue with [crosstalk] AW: 19:04 I, when I came to New- I took an opponent with my twin sister, but she moved out to marriage. When she married, it we both married to Arnies. She and Arnie moved to America. She was not going to come out. They go upon so I started taking up on my own. You know what Ulpan is? IG: 19:05 No. AW: 19:05 It is the way Hebrew is taught in Israel. I see it is when you walk into an Ulpan class, it is all in Hebrew. IG: 19:29 Uh huh. AW: 19:29 They gave you lots of readings to do, and there is a textbook, and you have to know, learn the grammar of Hebrew. And I have taken Ulpan any number of times in New York. IG: 19:40 Oh, where is it taught here? AW: 19:43 JCC, and [crosstalk] IG: 19:45 I know where that is, yeah, so, but Hebrew was not taught at Harpur College at the time. Do you remember any of the language? AW: 19:55 It was not. IG: 19:56 It was not, it was it was not. So- AW: 20:00 Nobody spoke it. There was nobody spoken to it. IG: 20:02 Nobody-nobody really spoken so. So let us get back to your sociology courses and how you felt they prepared you for your future studies in your future. AW: 20:13 Well, from Harpur College, I went on to Brown University. IG: 20:15 Yes-yes, but we are, you know, focused on a little bit more on Harpur College, because I represent Harpur College and Binghamton University. AW: 20:24 I also got a great education at Harpur College. I did learn sociology. IG: 20:29 Yeah, you learned sociology. So you learned about, you know, how did it expand your mind? How did it expand your understanding of sociology? AW: 20:40 Well, I learned about American society. Most of the courses had dealt with American society. Did take a course on Soviet Union. IG: 20:48 So what were you learning about the Soviet Union in the early (19)60s? AW: 20:52 I do not remember. I do not remember the details of that class. We are going back 50 years. IG: 20:58 Okay, anything that stands out. I mean, can you speak in journal terms about it being in a kind of an enlarging experience for you, it gave you- AW: 21:07 Of course, it was. IG: 21:08 So how so? AW: 21:09 I have got to know my professors, and I got to- I was an honors student. I wrote an honors thesis. IG: 21:13 Okay, so who were some of your professors, do you remember? IG: 21:16 Dr. Peter Dodge. IG: 21:17 Yeah. AW: 21:18 Donald Trump [Donald Throw]. Edwards, I forget his first name. He was very popular. Everybody wanted to take his courses. Um, those are three. I remember most. IG: 21:37 Okay, so-so you said, you know you learned about- AW: 21:40 Richard Hamilton. IG: 21:40 Richard Hamilton. So did you have interaction with your professors after class? Did they invite you to their home? AW: 21:53 My honors professor invited me to his home and we did, and I saw him after I graduated from Harpur, he went on to University of New Hampshire. IG: 22:02 Who was this? AW: 22:03 Peter Dodge, and he was studying in New York one year, and I was already working in New York, so I visited him. He was studying at Columbia. I visited him at his apartment on Riverside Drive. I visited him. And when he moved to New Hampshire, my family and I stopped off on our way to Bar Harbor Maine. So we stopped off and visit with him. IG: 22:24 Yeah. AW: 22:26 And we wrote, he wrote, we kept in contact with each other by way of the United States mail system for many-many years. IG: 22:34 Okay, so you know, so were you- did he, for example, invite um, students over to his- AW: 22:45 No. IG: 22:46 No, it was just after class [crosstalk] AW: 22:48 [crosstalk] myself, as we had developed a special relationship with him. IG: 22:51 I see, I see um, so, you know, just going back to sociology, what were some of the big ideas that you took away from your undergraduate experience? AW: 23:04 The importance of class. We did a lot of work at SES socioeconomic status, so I learned a lot about the role of class in American society. I think class was one of the biggest, the biggest variables that we concentrated on, because there were no Women's Studies. When I graduated Harpur College, IG: 23:30 There were no women women's studies. AW: 23:30 There were no women's studies. IG: 23:33 So-so what were, you, know, you said, variables of class. How was it, for example, how did it relate to the immigrant communities, the melting pot idea? AW: 23:46 Well, of course, when the immigrants came over, they were very lower class, right? AW: 23:50 They had lower class jobs. IG: 23:51 Yeah. IG: 23:52 Yes-yes. AW: 23:52 But as and particularly for the Jews, it was so important that children get college education. IG: 23:57 Yes. AW: 23:58 Now my mother-in-law, my father-in-law, both came from Poland. IG: 24:01 Yes. AW: 24:02 But they were bright enough to have had a college education, but did not have the opportunity to so very important for them that their children go on to get educate, have acquired educations, but I had already come from a family that was well educated. IG: 24:14 Right. IG: 24:15 Right. AW: 24:15 So it was not something that was- it was not um, stress has opened value, AW: 24:16 Just knew it was there. IG: 24:23 Yes. AW: 24:24 House was filled with books. All my parents friends were college educated. AW: 24:28 And it just assumed that we were going to go in on the college as well. But in my husband's example, it was exceptionally important, because his parents had not had an opportunity to be educating. So then they really did stress getting a college education. But in my household, it was just you. It was assumed that you were going to go on and get a college education. IG: 24:28 Right. IG: 24:52 Right. So, how- you know- so-so I guess you did not have the same class struggles that other immigrants have? AW: 25:03 No I was born. Well, my parents were lives of the depression. So, they always say, you know what, we were middle class. It just the matter was we were probably much more upper middle class. But I always assumed we were middle class, because what my parents had conveyed to me when I look back now, your father was the director and departmental of mental hygiene. How could we have just been middle class? We were obviously, we were upper middle class, but my parents kept and saying, oh, we were middle class, we were middle classroom. I tell my own children we were upper middle, we were upper middle class, because it is so important to me. I am having grown up with parents who grew up in the depression that my children have a sense that we were well off. IG: 25:41 Mm-hmm, okay, What-what- tell me about your children. You mentioned that, you know, they went to private schools, and so what-what-what careers are they- AW: 25:57 [crosstalk] royalty expert, he does not want to go on to get his CPA. IG: 25:58 Right. AW: 25:58 He says "I do not want to spend the rest of my career working on doing people's taxes." He thinks certified public accountants do. But he is a royalty expert. He works for Cats Media. IG: 26:14 Right. AW: 26:15 And which is, obviously, it is a media company. IG: 26:18 Right. IG: 26:18 Right. AW: 26:18 And he works on their royalties. Now, it is a lot of computerized work. When you when-when you publicize somebody and they become famous, they owe you a certain amount of royalties for your having pushed them forward. AW: 26:18 So he works in the royalties aspect. IG: 26:23 Uh huh. AW: 26:25 And my-my daughter, works for on the Wall Street Journal. IG: 26:35 Oh, well. What does she do? AW: 26:39 Well, she works in the business part. IG: 26:43 Okay, well, that is publishing. AW: 26:46 She does a lot of scheduling of business meetings. IG: 26:50 I see, I see, I see, that is- it is a good job. AW: 26:55 She loves it. She said, [crosstalk] "Why do you read The New York Times?" I said to her, "You work for the Wall Street Journal. Bring it home and I will read it." She does not bring it home, and I am not going to go to my way to buy a copy. IG: 27:07 No. And besides, it is all online right now. AW: 27:11 That is just true. IG: 27:13 Okay, so again, going back to your experience at Harpur College. So just so you feel that Harpur College prepared you for a future career. IG: 27:27 Oh, absolutely. IG: 27:29 Well, so gave you, you know, kind of a breadth of learning and, you know, understanding of key ideas, and how quickly after that did you go on to grad school? AW: 27:41 Well, I went on to graduate school when I graduated. I was at Brown for two years. I was supposed to have stayed to get my PhD, but after two years, have not been in school for six years, six well, we do not-not including high school and grammar school. I had been studying for so long, I want to come back. I want to work. So I applied for jobs in New York City, and my first job was at Columbia. IG: 28:06 Oh, what did you do at Columbia? AW: 28:07 Well, it was a strictly a first level job out of graduate school. IG: 28:12 Sure. AW: 28:12 It was a study with teamsters, and they would ask them all kinds of questions about their health. IG: 28:17 Oh. AW: 28:17 And I had to quote all that data. IG: 28:20 So, did you work for a department? Or did you- what-what part of Columbia did you work for? AW: 28:25 It was a school of public health. IG: 28:30 I see it is on 1/68 Street, Mailman School of Public Health. AW: 28:30 [inaudible] called the Mailman School then. IG: 28:30 It was not called Mailman [crosstalk] AW: 28:31 No, it was called Columbia University School of Public Health. IG: 28:36 So you enjoyed that? And um- IG: 28:39 It was your first job. AW: 28:39 I cannot say I enjoyed as my first job. AW: 28:41 Yeah. And I think I worked there for two years. IG: 28:45 Yeah. AW: 28:46 And then I got a job. I-I had mostly gone to a sociology convention, American sociology, sociological convention. And I think I saw the job advertised. It was job working for the Community Council of New York. It was also a grant study, and I worked with that Dr. Putter, and we collected data on older people. I forget where the data came from, and I was in charge of developing the questionnaire, analyzing and running it up. AW: 29:17 I see. AW: 29:18 I love that job. IG: 29:19 Yeah. How long were you there? AW: 29:21 I think I was there for two or three years. IG: 29:23 Uh huh. AW: 29:23 [inaudible] a grant ending. IG: 29:25 I see. So you had your graduate degree and then- AW: 29:31 My master's degree. IG: 29:32 Your masters. So tell us, you know, tell us about that journey toward the PhD and what happened? AW: 29:42 Well, actually the job of the Community Council ended- IG: 29:45 Yeah. AW: 29:45 I got a job at the American Jewish Committee. IG: 29:45 okay. AW: 29:45 And I was working with the famous Milton Himmelfarb. I am sure that name does not mean anything to you, but he is one of the editors of Commentary Magazine. IG: 29:55 Oh, wow. AW: 29:56 Commentary Magazine- IG: 29:57 I know about Commentary Magazine. I know. Of course, about Commentary Magazine. AW: 30:03 Well, you know, it is a very conservative magazine. IG: 30:07 Yes. AW: 30:07 So when I was working for him, he was giving me these assignments, and I had to confirm his conservative view of the world, and IG: 30:10 You did not share them? AW: 30:11 I did. I not only did I not share them, I did not agree with his view of the world at all, but I did not tell him that, because he was my boss, right? IG: 30:21 Yes. AW: 30:22 So I worked for him for two years, and I said to myself, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? And that is when I made the decision, “You are always going to be a middle level person unless you go and get your PhD.” IG: 30:34 That is right. In academics, that is right. AW: 30:37 Well, I knew I did not want to teach, but I do teach now. I teach at Mercy College. IG: 30:42 Oh, well, I did not know. AW: 30:42 Excuse me. IG: 30:44 I said, "Oh, wow. I did not know." AW: 30:46 Well, this is my this is a textbook which we are using. IG: 30:50 Oh, wow. Oh, that is so great. So just read it out loud for our listeners. AW: 30:55 The textbook is Family Violence Across the Lifespan: An Intro [Family Violence Across the Lifespan: An Introduction], and it is written by Ola Barnett, Cindy Miller Perrin and Robin Perrin, and it is my first time in my life ever teaching a class. Now, I did lecture when I got to Harlem Hospital and I became head of the department of the Center of Victim Support. IG: 31:18 That is so interesting. AW: 31:20 I did lecture for physicians, I lectured to nurses, I lectured to police officers, but I never actually taught a class from beginning to end on the theme of domestic violence. IG: 31:34 So how did you get interested in that? AW: 31:36 Well, I was working on the hospital Department of Social Work. IG: 31:36 Yes. AW: 31:36 I am the head of domestic violence coordinator. And she resigned. IG: 31:43 Right. AW: 31:44 And she did not know how to look at her data, so she was constantly coming to me to help her analyze her data. So when she left to the director of Department of Social Worker, said to me, I am going to make you a new director of domestic violence. IG: 32:00 Right. AW: 32:01 Because I knew how to work with statistics, but I did not know anything about domestic violence, but I knew from her data- IG: 32:10 Right. AW: 32:10 -what, no- the importance of subject matter. AW: 32:13 But I had never studied it, because I did not have that course on domestic violence, and I was in graduate school, so I took the job and I started reading. You need to know two things. You come of domestic violence coordinator. You have to know the subject matter, and you have to have a feel for what these women have been through. And I also interviewed some men. They were also men. Are also different domestic violence, but much smaller numbers than women. IG: 32:13 Right. IG: 32:36 How did you?- when did you get involved in this? How-how- what were the years that you kind of, that you entered into this field? AW: 32:47 Well, I became the domestic violence coordinator in 1994. IG: 32:56 What was your PhD in, I know that sociology, but what else- AW: 33:00 Well, I got my PhD, I was running for national genetics foundation. So my PhD- IG: 33:01 Where were in? AW: 33:02 In New York City. IG: 33:05 In New York City! AW: 33:08 So my PhD was in the physician recognition of a new specialty, because medical genetics is back in 1970 when I went back to graduate school in 1972 and I started working the national genetics foundation in 1974. IG: 33:24 And just remind us, where is your PhD from? You got your masters in Brown, and your PhD. AW: 33:30 I got my PhD at Columbia. IG: 33:32 I see. So you were at Columbia. What years? AW: 33:37 I was like- well, I did my coursework from 1972 to 1974. I got my PhD in 1979 I got my PhD when I started working the National Genetics Foundation. They knew when I started working there, they needed to have a subject matter from which I could develop my thesis. So I studied the physicians at a GHI hospital. I think GHI provided the funding for my salary, and that is how I got my PhD. IG: 34:13 But you- so-so your PhD was in what analyzing the data of the- AW: 34:23 A hundred patients form the GHI hospital- IG: 34:25 Yes. AW: 34:26 -located in Queens, and I asked them a series of questions of their knowledge of medical mimetics. So is it a study of their knowledge- IG: 34:26 Yeah. AW: 34:35 -their awareness of medical genetics as an important field, their knowledge of genetics. It was their knowledge, their awareness. And there is a third part of it, I cannot remember the third part was. IG: 34:48 Yes. So this was to demonstrate their general level of- AW: 34:56 -understanding. IG: 34:57 of understanding of- AW: 34:58 -emerging field, [crosstalk] IG: 34:59 Of course, of course. AW: 35:00 I had already become a major part of health care- IG: 35:04 I see. AW: 35:05 -for women who are pregnant women-women who are over the age of 35 so it was emerging field with very important, relevant techniques that physicians should know about. IG: 35:16 Yes. AW: 35:17 Even- well today everybody knows about amniocentesis. IG: 35:19 Yes. AW: 35:19 But when I was working on my thesis back in the middle and late (19)70s, so many physicians did not know that much about it all. IG: 35:27 And this is New York City- AW: 35:29 -this is New York City. IG: 35:30 -and this is so you could imagine what the rest of the country. AW: 35:32 And the base- the basic finding of my thesis was the fact that, well, physicians knew very little about mental genetics and had very little understanding of it, and then that realize relevance. IG: 35:44 Right. So were there recommendations that you made in your thesis of how to educate this? AW: 35:53 I do not think I did. IG: 35:55 [crosstalk] populations. AW: 35:56 That was not [crosstalk] AW: 35:57 Well, I did it for 25 years. IG: 35:57 That was not okay. So, tell us about, I am very interested about your work with victims of domestic abuse, and how long you did this. And- IG: 36:07 That is tremendous. And so, I mean, was not it emotionally? I mean, how do you heal- AW: 36:17 You should talk my family. They will say [inaudible] it took a toll on you. IG: 36:20 Yeah. AW: 36:21 When I come, when I come home at night, I had to admit, I was probably did a lot of snapping every family in numbers. You come home and you hear these stories that, [crosstalk] it is called vicarious trauma, traumatization. But I loved working with these abused women because they had such strengths. IG: 36:38 Yeah. AW: 36:39 Um, they have been through so much. IG: 36:40 Yes. AW: 36:40 And yet they were able to open up and tell me about the violence I had experienced. IG: 36:46 Right. AW: 36:47 And you have to have a sense of rapport with these women. IG: 36:50 Right. AW: 36:50 And I did not just work with women who are being physically and emotionally abused. I also work with women who are victims of rape. IG: 36:58 Yeah. AW: 36:58 And at that point the rape do you know about the rape exam? IG: 37:00 Yes. AW: 37:02 Well, the whole process of the rape exam had already been developed, and women would come to the emergency room seeking the rape kits. IG: 37:09 Right. AW: 37:09 So I work with a lot of women who are victims of rape. Now the statistics show, and it is probably very true, most women who are raped are rape in the context of intimacy. They are being raped by their husbands; they are being raped by their boyfriends. They are being raped by people they know. IG: 37:23 Yes. AW: 37:24 It is not the woman who goes to a fraternity party at night. IG: 37:26 Right. AW: 37:27 And ends up being raped. So I was dealing with women who were very traumatized by their experiences. And I also wrote a grant in New York State Crime Victims board, and they gave me a grant, which enabled me to hire three or four social workers, and we developed a center for different support, and we provided therapy at night. IG: 37:45 That is tremendous. That is really, that is, that is tremendous. IG: 37:52 Thank you. IG: 37:52 Yeah, so, I mean, is your work known about in the field of domestic violence and abuse? AW: 38:08 When I retired, I was working at the freedom houses domestic violence shelter, and I was interviewing women and their understanding of their self-confidence. The whole purpose of the study was develop their self-confidence over time. Site, I interviewed them. They came to the shelter. I interviewed them. Shelter stays are only for three months. That is what the funds come from. The no brother Power Act, Violence Against Women Act, which is a law that comes from the New York the United States legislature. So it only pays for three months, and the monies are funneled through the New York state, New York State Department of Health. So I interviewed them when they first got to the shelter. I interviewed them at the end of two months. I interviewed them right before they were being ready for discharge. And I did write a paper, and I presented at two different conferences. IG: 39:00 Okay, so what were the years of that? AW: 39:03 Years of [inaudible] IG: 39:04 Of-of-of-of your paper, and- AW: 39:06 Well, the first paper I gave, I gave in Washington at the future Futures Without Violence. That is the name of the organization. IG: 39:14 In what year? AW: 39:15 2014. IG: 39:18 Okay, so it was quite recent. AW: 39:24 Maybe I do not. Maybe it was 2013. IG: 39:26 Yeah, but it is quite recent. AW: 39:28 And then I gave the same paper I gave at the American Public Health Association. IG: 39:34 At the American what? AW: 39:34 Public health association that was in Chicago. IG: 39:38 So you know your-your work is known of in the community. AW: 39:46 I would say so. IG: 39:46 You would say so. AW: 39:47 I would say so. IG: 39:56 So what-what did you do you know, what did you. I mean, I, I am, I am really fascinated to learn about this and your work with, you know, victims and what-what-what impact do you think that you have had on this constituency overall? AW: 40:18 Well, you know, you cannot change people. IG: 40:20 No. AW: 40:20 You can give them insight. IG: 40:23 Right. AW: 40:23 But in the end, if they are going to change their way of life and move beyond the violence, that is an individual decision. IG: 40:30 Right. AW: 40:31 Every victim has to make on her own or his own. But other people I worked with at Harlem Hospital. IG: 40:38 Right. AW: 40:39 Many of them went on to move away from their abusive relationships and went on to develop relationships that were not abusive. IG: 40:49 Right. AW: 40:50 And I strongly believe it is because of the dialog that I had with them about the fact, and I always say to every victim, that is what I teach in my class, you never accuse the victim of causing the violence. That is what the perpetrator tells them. IG: 41:05 Right. AW: 41:07 I am hitting you because you have aggravated me. IG: 41:09 Right. AW: 41:10 So the first message you have to get across it every victim is the fact that they did not cause the violence. Does not matter what the perpetrator said to them. Does not really matter how they absorb that-that fact that they are the cause of the violence, the victim is never the cause of the violence. And I made that point to every victim I saw. I saw 150 victims a year in Harlem Hospital, and I made the same point of victims I interviewed at Freedom House. The victim did not cause the violence. IG: 41:37 It must be a look, a very liberating idea for them to- AW: 41:41 I am sure it is- IG: 41:42 -absorbed AW: 41:42 -because they have so much inculcated themselves this belief. IG: 41:46 Right. AW: 41:46 They cause the violence. IG: 41:47 Right. AW: 41:48 They never put any blame on the perpetrator. IG: 41:50 Right. AW: 41:51 Blame themselves. I did not do this right; I did not do that right. IG: 41:53 Right. AW: 41:54 There is nothing that a victim can do that justifies the perpetrator being out of control. IG: 42:01 Right. AW: 42:01 The perpetrator is out of control for any number of reasons. First of all, a lot of them are depressed, and they are- also have very low self-esteem, and they tend to be attracted to women who also have low self-esteem, because that makes their-their task of destroying a person so much easier. I am not saying that all women who enter into violent relationships enter low self-esteem, but by time they end it, they certainly do have very low self-esteem. IG: 42:27 Is it oftentimes tied to economic dependence on the- AW: 42:31 Well, that is why a lot of women do not like to leave because their perpetrator does not. Perpetrators do not like them to work. They do not like them to be exposed to the world. So you do not work. I work now. I am bringing in the money. And when I worked at Freedom House, I encourage all of them to get the GEDs. You know that is? IG: 42:51 Yeah, of course I do. AW: 42:53 Because without a college, high school education, there is no job market for you. IG: 42:58 Right. AW: 42:59 So, I encourage all of them to get their GED, not only because they needed to get a job, but they needed for their own understanding of themselves as-as responsible adult human beings. IG: 43:12 Right. Did you see these women over time? Or did you see- I mean, how, how much exposure did you or your program have? AW: 43:21 Well, I usually, I saw many of them only once because they were coming to the hospital identified by doctors and nurses. IG: 43:27 But you did not, so you did not really know the impact that your interaction would have on them over time. AW: 43:35 Well, I only know those who, say, through whom we offered therapy. IG: 43:38 I see. AW: 43:39 I have a grant from New York State, crime [inaudible] support, and we started out often in 12 weeks of therapy. But I realized when I had, when I renewed the grant, that 12 weeks is really not that much time. No so no one that was renewed. I asked for 16 weeks. So those who came to therapy, I had a great deal of contact with, and those who did come, who came to therapy, definitely were able to change their lives. IG: 44:01 But you were not the one conducting the therapy. You ran, [crosstalk] of course, yeah, you ran. You ran that right effort. I mean, how do you feel doing that work in in hindsight, do you feel- AW: 44:21 I am glad, and the board, who's Director department associate I am glad she made me the domestic violence coordinator. AW: 44:28 Obviously, when I first started doing, I did not know that much about domestic violence, but I just had a feel what these women were going through, and to be a good domestic violence coordinator, even without having the knowledge, you have to have a feel for your clients. IG: 44:28 Right. IG: 44:47 Right. AW: 44:48 And I definitely had that feeling. IG: 44:50 Yeah. AW: 44:50 And I was obviously able to convey it. IG: 44:53 Right. Do you think that most of the people that you saw were, you know a segment of the population that suffers from domestic abuse because sort of, you know, the- you mentioned that a lot of the women did not have GED, but you know, oftentimes women who have who are more educated and come from maybe more well to do families may also be victims, but you-you probably did not see that population? AW: 45:26 I did have a certain number of not only to have certain number of middle-class clients, I had a certain number of middle-class clients who were college educated, and they also were victims. IG: 45:36 Did they have sort of the same scenario as in their homes, as the women from poor families? AW: 45:46 Yes. IG: 45:46 They have the same so their husbands sort of kept them isolated from the world. AW: 45:51 Yes. IG: 45:51 Yes. AW: 45:52 Yeah. IG: 45:52 And they ranged in ages. AW: 45:55 Well, most of them were in their 20s, 30s, and then for [crosstalk] 40s. IG: 46:02 So, tell us, you know, this is really-really valuable work that you have done in your life, and now you are teaching a course at Mercy College. And you know, who are your students there? AW: 46:19 A lot of them are going for a degree mental health counselor. IG: 46:22 I see, I see. AW: 46:23 So and I talked about that my cases, I asked them to expand on their own cases. IG: 46:28 Right. AW: 46:29 Because I am not just teaching the theory of family violence, I am trying to get their understanding- IG: 46:36 Right. AW: 46:37 -the case of they have seen- IG: 46:38 Right. AW: 46:39 -from-from the perspective of the points textbook is making, and from my own perspective, having worked with no 150 cases a year for over 20 years, and I also bring in the cases that I had at Freedom House, if I asked them to tell me about their cases, also. IG: 46:57 Right. AW: 46:57 Because I want you know how their cases relate to what the theory says. IG: 47:04 Right. And there is no indication of you letting up on this class? AW: 47:10 No-no. I am going to continue teaching it. IG: 47:14 That is wonderful. That is wonderful. So you know, just, let us, let us move to the past a little bit. And I just wanted to know, you know, so, when did you meet your husband? And you know, where did you meet your husband? AW: 47:33 I have a friend, Lenny Bergman. IG: 47:35 Right. AW: 47:35 She was dating Joe Friedman. IG: 47:37 Yeah. AW: 47:38 And my husband was friendly with- was very close with Joe Friedman. I was very close with Laney. IG: 47:44 Right. AW: 47:44 So they said, why do not you come for Friday night dinner. IG: 47:45 Right. AW: 47:45 And you can meet Arnold Weintraub. I said, I am not really interested. IG: 47:52 Yeah. AW: 47:53 And he said the same thing to Joe. So, Laney said to me, you are not going to marry the guy- IG: 47:58 Yeah. AW: 47:59 -just come and meet him for dinner. IG: 48:01 Right. AW: 48:01 So on the assumption I did not have to marry him, I met her for dinner. IG: 48:05 Right. AW: 48:06 And I was going to a synagogue on the west side. It must have come up in course the conversation. So then the following this Saturday, after the Friday night dinner, he showed up my synagogue. IG: 48:17 This is sweet. That is really nice. AW: 48:19 Well, I totally ignored him. IG: 48:21 Yeah. AW: 48:22 I do not know why my daughter says me to this day, "Why did you ignore dad so much." I do not know why I ignored him. I just ignored him. But he called me up anyway for a date. IG: 48:32 That is very lovely. AW: 48:33 And when we hit- our first date was April 21 1972 and so every April 21 we always celebrate everyone having and he and he proposed a year later. IG: 48:47 Yeah. AW: 48:48 April, things like April 22. IG: 48:50 That is very, that is very sweet. AW: 48:52 So, two people really wanted me and he said, his joke, I am not innocent. Joe said, you know, you are not going to marry her. So, I mean, some people were not going to marry each other. He met- we fell in love. IG: 49:03 It took the pressure off of you, you know. AW: 49:05 That is true, that is true. IG: 49:06 That is, that is, I think that that made things more possible. So also, you know, going back, so what-what were you like? I mean, this is 1972 you were, you know a young woman who was very kind of on a, on a career track to an academic career in sociology. How do you think that you know your people of for example, of the time during that time, remembered you and you know, how do you think that your classmates at Harpur College would remember you, you know, this is- AW: 49:44 I think, well, my daughter says, Mom, "You are quiet and you are very serious." She is right. I am quiet and I am serious. IG: 49:52 Yeah. AW: 49:53 But when I have something to say, I have no trouble-trouble getting it out. AW: 49:57 Right. Right. AW: 49:58 So I say, Rebecca all the time. I am. Be quiet, but I am not a pushover. IG: 50:03 No. AW: 50:03 I have my ideas, and if I am in a room when people express themselves, I either agree with them and I tell them why, or I disagree with them, I also tell them why. So why I am quiet. I am not, I am no, I am not a wallflower, right? But I also, I was very quiet in high school, and I was very quiet in college. I am a quiet person. IG: 50:24 You are a quiet person, I think, with a real capacity for taking people in, right? Because you- yeah- AW: 50:34 I also chair my synagogues Israel committee now. IG: 50:37 Yes. AW: 50:38 We just had a meeting last night, so I am able to take on leadership capacities, and I think I do it very well. IG: 50:46 Tell us about that leadership capacity outside of your role with victims of domestic abuse. AW: 50:56 Well, I am very active in my synagogue. IG: 50:56 Right. AW: 50:56 But I am particularly active in Israel committee. I am the chairperson. IG: 51:01 So what do you do? What do you- AW: 51:03 Run weekly me- we run monthly meetings, and we plant programs throughout the year. IG: 51:07 Yeah. AW: 51:08 And I have to get the speakers, and I have to know, getting the orientation of my- there is a reconstruction in synagogue. So I have to [inaudible] a little bit [inaudible] reconstruction is [inaudible] all of that. So, when they come, they prepare, they know what they are meaning. We are also very warm congregation. We do a lot of singing. My husband plays a piano services, so I give him some idea--know what kind of congregation you are. We are also very intellectual congregation. IG: 51:35 Right. AW: 51:36 I am not the only PhD in the congregation. IG: 51:38 Yeah. AW: 51:41 So and I had- we, and I developed the speakers based on what the interests are of the committee. Meanwhile, we pick somebody out of the blue, I am right in the committee. We discussed now what-what our interests are for the year, and we develop our programs based on the interest of the committee and what we think will interest the congregation. IG: 51:59 Right. AW: 51:59 And then we line up our speakers. IG: 52:01 Right. So does your-your congregation, do any outreach or philanthropy work with Israel or the you know, New York community does- AW: 52:16 Well, we are not a fundraising. IG: 52:17 You are not a- Yeah. AW: 52:18 I mean the people who come speak to us, I always say, bring your literature. IG: 52:24 Right. AW: 52:24 People want to give and give on their own. IG: 52:26 Right. AW: 52:26 But we do not do active fundraising. IG: 52:28 You do not do- AW: 52:28 -for Israel. IG: 52:29 Yeah. AW: 52:29 I myself give money to UJA Federation. IG: 52:33 Right. AW: 52:34 I also give money to the new Israel fund. IG: 52:36 Uh huh. AW: 52:38 The new Israel did not know anything about the new Israel fund? IG: 52:40 No, but I know about the UGA. AW: 52:41 Well, new the new Israel fund believes the importance having a binational state, and they also work very closely with the Israeli Arab population. So, and I feel me for really the importance of a two-state solution. So, I do give my money to us, to um New Israel fund. IG: 53:01 Right. AW: 53:01 But I also give the Federation, UGA Federation, because I play very important role in aiding the lower—there is, there is three categories, low-income Jews in New York City, Russians, Russian Jews, who came over in the (19)70s and (19)80s. My husband actually worked for highest- IG: 53:21 I know that, yeah. AW: 53:22 And you work for- IG: 53:22 a lot of, a lot of parents of my friends came through that- AW: 53:26 We also worked in NYANA. Highest brought them over- IG: 53:29 Yes, I know, NYANA. AW: 53:31 -provided the services. IG: 53:33 yeah. AW: 53:33 So a lot of the Russians made- IG: 53:34 In the 80s. AW: 53:35 -a larger portion New York City poor Jews. IG: 53:39 Yeah. AW: 53:39 And the Hasidim also. IG: 53:40 Right. AW: 53:41 Because they are very large families and they have middle class jobs. IG: 53:46 Right. AW: 53:47 And the third category is the [inaudible], because they have not been able to know they did not have the kinds of jobs that provide them with pensions. IG: 54:05 Of course. Or they did not have jobs, or- AW: 54:08 A lot of them are living- I did that job for just the Jews Association, service of the agent. Most of them are living on Social Security. IG: 54:16 That is right, that is right. AW: 54:18 Some that does not get you very far, does it? Not- IG: 54:20 It does not. AW: 54:21 Especially living in New York City, governments are so high. So I do not get talking about this. IG: 54:29 About-about outreach and philanthropy that you do. AW: 54:32 I am also very active in the Social Action Committee--my husband, I run a program every at the synagogue called Hunger Shabbat. IG: 54:38 What is that? AW: 54:39 Well, we talk about the number of people in New York City who are living below the poverty line. And West Side Campaign Against Hunger is a food- is a it is a supermarket right for people who are living below the poverty line. And they provide wonderful services. They also have a van that goes up the Washington Heights because there so many people living below the poverty line in Washington Heights, and so we run Hunger Shabbat usually have a speaker, someone from West Side Campaign Against Hunger, who talks about the-the level of poverty in New York City, and how was they called themselves whisker and how was good, tries to address that through their through their supermarket approach, and they have an annual dinner, which my husband, I go to every year. I really- It means a great deal to me to support people who do not have the kinds of money that you really need to live on, to live on in the city, this is probably one of the most expensive cities in the world. IG: 55:39 Yes, can I agree. AW: 55:43 And then there are people who come here. We a lot of immigrants who come here. IG: 55:47 That is wonderful. AW: 55:47 So I am very active on our social committee. I am also part of it is called Synagogue Coalition for Refugee and Immigrant cooperation. IG: 55:47 Right. IG: 55:47 Right. AW: 55:47 We know they come from South America. They are coming for because of being victimized by the gangs in Honduras in Nicaragua and Colombia, sort of coming here to seek safety. We also many refugees coming from Africa. [inaudible] hospital- There are a number of refugees that are from-from Africa, and of course, we have the Syrian problem. AW: 56:08 We are actually meeting next Thursday, and we develop all kinds of programs to get the Jewish community on board in terms of helping the Syrians. AW: 56:09 That is tremendous. That is wonderful. AW: 56:40 I enjoy. IG: 56:41 Yeah, I mean, it is a meaningful life. It is very it is a meaningful life. AW: 56:45 My daughter says all the time, "Mom, you have such a good heart." IG: 56:48 Yeah. AW: 56:48 And I do. Where I got it from? My parents were very much involved in the Jewish community and giving. So I know I got the broader strokes from my parents, but how I am playing it out in New York City, it is all coming from me. IG: 57:05 It is all coming from you, yeah, and the people that have fed that right, that that that give that emotion, that kind of disposition, to give up yourself, because there must have been, you know, I mean, it is, it is, you probably had a lot of grateful people that you, that you, that you saw, you know, throughout your life, I mean, the people that you were helping. So, there is sort of a gratitude that is feeding that- AW: 57:40 That is true, that is true, right. AW: 57:40 That is true. IG: 57:40 -that impulse. IG: 57:44 Okay, well, you know I- AW: 57:49 You know what, let us eat, let us have some snacks. Okay. IG: 57:52 Okay, you know what, I have to really leave in like five minutes. AW: 57:58 Okay. IG: 57:59 But I want to still ask you just some concluding questions--so you know you have answered a lot of the questions that I-I set out to ask. I know how you spend your time. Do you have any kind of recreational things that you do outside of your community work and your teaching? AW: 58:26 Well, I live abroad in Central Park. No. So soon, another month, when it really warms up, I am going to start my jogging again. Oh, good. I love jogging. AW: 58:35 Yeah. AW: 58:36 It is, it is when I fit and I jog around the reservoir. It is like a little over a mile, right? And when I get back to this apartment, I feel so revitalized. AW: 58:47 Yeah, I could imagine. AW: 58:48 Do you jog? IG: 58:49 I-I-I run on the treadmill. It is not my favorite thing to do. I swim. AW: 58:55 Oh, I love swimming also. IG: 58:57 I-I-I swim in the Binghamton pool, and I do yoga. I mean, I been a yoga devotee for the last [crosstalk] AW: 59:08 Swimming is one of my two favorite sports activities. Are all spring, summer time? IG: 59:14 Right. AW: 59:14 Yeah, but you cannot swim in the wintertime. And I do not like indoor pools. I cannot stand the smell of chlorine. IG: 59:20 Well I swim in the actually, the Binghamton pool is extraordinary because it does not really smell of chlorine. So have you been back to Binghamton? AW: 59:30 No, I have not. I went back my- I had a friend who lived in Binghamton. IG: 59:37 Oh really. Well, you should come to visit us. You know when you are whenever you visit your friends, we would be very happy to introduce you to the Dean of Libraries, who is very forward thinking, and he has big visions AW: 59:56 [inaudible] still the same place? IG: 59:58 Still the same place. I. AW: 59:59 Okay. IG: 1:00:00 But it is expanded. AW: 1:00:01 I am sure it has. IG: 1:00:03 Now the- there are, there is not just one Binghamton library. There are four libraries. IG: 1:00:10 We call- because there is a science library on campus. There is a downtown, a smaller downtown library for the student community that lives downtown. And now we are opening a school of nursing [crosstalk]. So, there is, there is this [crosstalk] but they are now transferred to a new campus in Johnson City. AW: 1:00:10 Why? AW: 1:00:38 Where? IG: 1:00:38 Johnson City. AW: 1:00:39 Oh right, Johnson City was just [inaudible] of Binghamton. IG: 1:00:42 So, there are four libraries, and there are different programs that we do for-for example, you know, employing low-income students to learn to work in the library and learn, you know, technology and research skills while they are doing it. But let us, let us conclude this interview asking you about, you know, what are the most important lessons that you have learned in life that you would like to share to with you know, current and future students listening to this [crosstalk] AW: 1:01:18 I honestly, most important part of anyone's life is first of all getting a college education, because it broadens your understanding of the world. You begin to realize it is not just about me, but you begin to realize that there is a whole world out there beyond yourself with different values you learn about different cultures, and it just expands your understanding of the world. So I would say to anybody and everybody, how important is- [squeaky door] Hi. This is my husband. Amy's husband 1:01:49 How are you? So, you found it. [squeaky door] I am going to head over to the [inaudible] now. AW: 1:01:55 This is my warm ass going husband. [crosstalk] IG: 1:01:59 We have learned a lot about you. Amy's husband 1:02:01 You have? IG: 1:02:02 Yes. Amy's husband 1:02:02 Yeah, you think it is all true. IG: 1:02:05 No. So your wife is concluding her interview with me and telling us what life lessons were the most important that she learned in her career and in her life that she would like to share with this current generation of students and future generations who are listening to the tapes. [crosstalk] Yes. AW: 1:02:38 I would say to anyone, everyone. I know college educations cost a lot. IG: 1:02:42 Yeah. AW: 1:02:44 But if-if there is a famous founder of Israel theater, Herzl [Theodor Herzl] said, if you dream it in well, if it is if you dream it, "If you will, it is no dream." IG: 1:02:57 Repeat it. AW: 1:02:58 If you will, it- IG: 1:02:59 Yes. AW: 1:02:59 It is no dream. IG: 1:03:01 Yes. AW: 1:03:02 So if you have the intellectual capacity to get a college education, I know that New York State, you can earn up- your parents can earn up $220,000 and you still can get an education for free if you go to a school in New York State, and if you go to one of the SUNY schools. So I would urge everyone, anyone and everyone, to get a college education, because just broaden your understanding of the world. And I am glad I got a college education, and I am glad I got it at Harper College. IG: 1:03:37 Wonderful. Thank you so much. AW: 1:03:39 You are very welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Amy Weintraub Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni working with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weintraub, Amy ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Amy Weintraub, PhD, led the Center for Victim Support at Harlem Hospital Center for 25 years and assessed patients with a history of domestic violence and sexual assault. She currently teaches courses on these subjects at Mercy College. She was a sociology major at Harpur College. She was a National Institute of Mental Health Fellow. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Amy Weintraub.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-09 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:41 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/134f626f7f10f181e17e56f03416a3eb.mp3 a1694a36da4df4a2dbca1204b0f76ca4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c325bcccb98390dd3f53a5104d44c13.jpg 72b7fb1135c37b52fe650f161dec3940 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper Year of Graduation 1963 and 1966 Biographical Text Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Arthur and Nancy Cooper Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 9 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Interview. So for the purposes of the interview, please state your names, that when you were born, when you went to Harpur, the years that you went to Harpur, and when we and where we are at present. AC: 00:19 My name is Arthur Cooper. I was born on February 9, 1943 in Brooklyn, New York. I went to Harpur in 1959 graduated in (19)63. What is the other question? IG: 00:37 Where we are physically. AC: 00:38 And we are physically in my apartment in Manhattan, 79 West 12th Street, and it is March, 11. NC: 00:47 Wrong. AC: 00:48 March 9, 2017. NC: 00:51 Nope. IG: 00:52 2018. AC: 00:54 2018. Oh, okay. And Franklin D. Roosevelt is president of the United States. NC: 01:00 Count backwards by seven from 100. Go ahead. Oh, Jesus. IG: 01:03 And what we're doing? AC: 01:05 And we are having an interview for some Harpur Oral History Project. IG: 01:09 Yes. NC: 01:10 My name is Nancy Thompson Cooper. I was born on January 11, 1945 in Manhattan, New York, and went to Harpur in September of 1962 graduated in June of 1966 and we are in our apartment at 79 West Hill Street getting interviewed. IG: 01:31 Okay, very good. So I would like to know where you grew up and who your parents were, whether your parents went to college. NC: 01:44 My mother went- Okay. I grew up in Greenwich Village in New York. I grew up on the borderline of Greenwich Village in Chelsea, so I had an interesting life. It was interesting as a kid, but I went to Catholic school, which was very confining. IG: 01:59 Yes. NC: 02:00 Also not very smart. The teachers were not so smart. They were not well-educated women. I had fun anyway, and somehow, I got into Harpur. I always thought I was the last person in my class to be accepted. I was on the waiting list because I got in on July 6, but I did find out that somebody else got in in August, on August 29 so I felt better. I was not the last person let in. My father was a display man at Abraham and Strauss department store in Brooklyn. My mother was a New York City public school teacher. She did go to college, graduated from Hunter in 1928 and how I ended up at Harpur, I do not know, but I feel so happy that I did. We could afford it for one thing, and Catholic schools kept giving me unasked full scholarships, and I did not want to go there, and I did not, had not even applied there, but they would call our- the school would say, and the nuns would call me and say, "Hey, want to go to Our Lady of the bleeding blood." I do not know, whatever they would call them. "No, I do not." I want at the time, I thought I would end up in Syracuse, and they warned me that Syracuse girls do not wear bathrobes in the hallway. And this is scandalous. It was scandalous. But anyway, be that as it may, I finally got into Harpur. And I was very pleased. Everybody was pleased, especially money wise, because in those days, if you had a regent scholarship, it covered all your tuition. IG: 03:37 Right. NC: 03:37 The whole, the whole thing, IG: 03:39 Yeah. NC: 03:39 And- IG: 03:40 Room and board as well? AC: 03:41 No. NC: 03:41 No-no, just-just your tuition. My final two years that I was there, I was what they called something, a dorm resident, dorm counselor. Other places had other names for it, which paid all your room and half your board. And I think it cost my parents $279 a semester to send me to college, which was holy crap, really. It was a- I still worked. I worked all the time there. I was a waitress. I was a- I babysat. I worked in a coffee shop. I worked often anyway. IG: 04:20 So-so, I mean, that is so interesting on so many fronts, not-not least that you grew up in Chelsea and the village at the time that you did, but we're the focus for now is on Harpur College. So why did you- so were there are expectations for you of going on to college from in your family? NC: 04:44 Oh, yeah, yes. IG: 04:45 Yeah, because- NC: 04:47 My mother had gone to college, but she was the only one in both sides of the family who had ever gone to college. You know, my father had had not gone, and he had four sisters who did not go. And you know, nobody else did. She just lucked out. IG: 05:03 Right. NC: 05:03 Too long a story, but she did luck out. And so it was expected that, and I expected to go to college. NC: 05:11 I was an only child. IG: 05:11 You were the only child. And what-what was the reputation of Harpur College at the time? IG: 05:11 Were you the only- NC: 05:18 I knew nothing. IG: 05:19 You knew- So why did you decide on that rather than- NC: 05:22 [crosstalk] had a daughter, Ellen, who went to Harpur College and told her about it. IG: 05:26 Yeah. NC: 05:27 When I finally met Ellen [inaudible], I said [making a sound] that she was, she belonged to, there were not sororities, but there were things like that. IG: 05:35 Right. NC: 05:35 And she belonged to one of those things. IG: 05:37 Right. AC: 05:38 See, now she is going to be in this oral history, and- NC: 05:40 I use her name. AC: 05:42 Used her name. IG: 05:44 I do not know her, but we know we may not ever get to- AC: 05:48 But you have insulted a Harpur student just now. NC: 05:52 [crosstalk] to insult our Harpur students. AC: 05:54 Oh! Okay. NC: 05:55 Back it up. No, it was just she was a very different person than I was and I was she wore skirts, and I never did. I have not since, but sorry, I insulted another person. But anyway, no, I did nothing about it, except that it was not a Teacher's College, and I did not want to go to a Teacher's College, pretty much. And I did know this, that Harpur was the, just about the only liberal arts school, I think just around that time, Buffalo and Albany were becoming more liberal arts, but every other state school was teachers. And not that I did not become a teacher, which I did at some point, but I did not want to just focus on one thing that is all. Is that all? IG: 06:46 Yeah, or-for now, that is fine. All right, so-so you, it is your turn. So where did you grow up? AC: 06:56 I was born and bred in Brooklyn, yes, of kind of far out towards Sheepshead Bay in Flatbush. And my father was an immigrant from Poland, came to this country in 1925 and worked in the garment industry as a sweater cutter. My mother was born in New York and went to college. In fact, went to Brooklyn College and became a teacher. Was a public-school teacher. I went to kind of boring local elementary schools and junior high schools in Brooklyn. I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, which I liked a lot. Why did I go to Harpur? NC: 07:44 You have to tell the truth. AC: 07:46 Because my friend, who was also we thought we would go to college together, and he was researching colleges that we could afford, and through their catalogs, and he found a college that had no gym requirement. It was Harpur College, and so we both immediately went to Harpur College. And of course, when we got there, they had a gym. NC: 08:10 They did not have a requirement because they did not have a gym. AC: 08:12 They had just built the new campus in Vestal, or they were building the campus in Vestal, and by the time we got there, there was a gym requirement. But as long as I was there, I stayed. AC: 08:12 And so and so. That is interesting. So that was the only reason there must be- , AC: 08:29 No, well, I had it in terms of what my family could afford. It was a choice of Brooklyn College or Harpur College, IG: 08:37 I see. And why Harpur College rather than, you know, SUNY Albany or some other SUNY? AC: 08:42 Oh, I did not. Harpur College at that time had a very exclusive reputation for being a hard to get into high quality academic liberal arts college that was part of the State University of New York, and it was almost free. Albany was the Teachers College. IG: 09:04 I see I did, I did. So, and what was your, what was your first impression when you arrived? Were you, you know, you grew up as a city kid? Had you ever gone to the country, to upstate New York before visiting? AC: 09:24 Well, I went to summer camp, and we took vacations and things my when I got to Harpur, it was a construction site. It was, this was just what they were still holding classes in Endicott, New York, which is no eight miles away or 10 miles away, and then, but they had built a few dormitories on this hill in Vestal. And in those days, there was nothing around it. There was not a shopping mall right down the road. It was a deserted mud dump. NC: 09:58 It was mud. AC: 09:58 It was mud for- NC: 09:59 Mud with boardwalks to get across. AC: 10:04 But I was happy. I mean, I was I did not want it. I wanted to leave home. I wanted to go to a real college where with a, you know, dormitory life and so on. And I had several friends whom I knew from high school, and I was happy as a pig. IG: 10:20 Several-several kids from your high school went there and, uh- AC: 10:25 Yes-yes. NC: 10:27 I knew nobody. IG: 10:28 Yeah. NC: 10:29 Well, and I knew nothing about and, but I had seen it. My parents took the driving trip one summer and showed me different colleges that we could not afford. Went including, we visited Harpur. It was closed. It was the summer, but we saw it and but I knew what to expect. So I had seen it. I was thrilled to leave the city to go to a school like that. IG: 10:55 So it was a- NC: 10:57 Sea of mud. IG: 10:58 It was a sea of mud. NC: 10:59 And there were no trees. There were no bushes. During my freshman year, Nelson Rockefeller came to make a speech, and they planted a whole bunch of trees one day. IG: 11:12 What that is what year was that? NC: 11:14 It would have been 1960 it would either been the fall of (19)62 or the spring of (19)63 and he came and they planted all the trees, and then after he left, they dug them all up and took them away. IG: 11:26 Was this the time- that is that is incredible. Was this a time that he ignored the anti-war protesters on campus? NC: 11:36 No, this is way before that. Way before that. This is, and this is when he, we did not know in those days that he was dyslexic, but I believe he turned out that he was, when he called our president, Dr. Bartlett, repeatedly, and his name was Dr. Bartle, but-but, and, but, somebody who was up there said he had big head cards with big block letters, which would you know- What- we did not know about these things in those days. I do not think many did, but he came to made a speech about something I have no idea we-we may have gone or may not have gone, but they took the trees. IG: 12:12 Reminds me of another person who has cue cards for- NC: 12:17 Oh yes-yes. Listen, I hear you. IG: 12:23 It is just off the record. Okay, so we know what were. Yeah. NC: 12:32 I was a freshman in a dormitory that was all double rooms, but was so crowded we were triples. It was very so every room there should have been two girls, was three bunk bed. It was very crowded, and it was all freshmen. And it was the only year, to the best of my knowledge, they ever made in all freshmen dormitory, which isn't a good idea. It just is nobody to tell you things, right, except your dorm residence. And my dorm resident said, one of the very first meetings said there are people you should there are three crazy people on this campus. Absolutely do not go near them and name two, and the third she named was Arthur Cooper. So there was that, but- IG: 13:16 And why did, why did Art Cooper have that reputation. NC: 13:16 It was [crosstalk] IG: 13:20 So, were you intrigued? NC: 13:22 No, I was afraid. IG: 13:23 You were afraid. So how did- NC: 13:25 But he was a senior. I was a freshman. I did not know, really. IG: 13:28 So how did you make your acquaintance with Art Cooper in [crosstalk] NC: 13:33 -small place. IG: 13:34 Yes, it was a very small place. AC: 13:37 One of the things that was so special about Harpur is that it was so isolated, just a few 100 kids living in dorms in a mud heap in the middle of nowhere, nobody had cars, nobody had money, that we got to know each other much better than NC: 13:58 One might have. AC: 13:59 One might in a normal university where-where there was a world outside the dormitory, and we- many of, I mean, we are still friends 50 years later, with lots of people [crosstalk] we knew from Harpur or from Harpur. And this is, I think this is unusual compared to other people I know. NC: 14:21 And really a lot like, like, a lot of us. AC: 14:24 Because we were, I mean, we were, we had classes, you know, 12 hours a week, but we were there 24 hours a day with nothing to do except get into trouble or get into mischief or fool around. IG: 14:37 So tell us [crosstalk] NC: 14:38 In freshman year, in freshman year, one girl came with a car, one. IG: 14:42 Right. NC: 14:42 And she was called Michelle Buick. I do not know her name, and she only, and she had to be. She did not last. She was gone after a fresh- she transferred out. We were too- IG: 14:52 Because [crosstalk] she was [inaudible], she-she was giving rise to two minutes. NC: 14:56 No-no-no-no-no. We were not high class enough. We were, sounds silly, but we're all really smart and pretty poor, a lot of a lot of my friends who lived in Manhattan at that time, it changed over time we lived in tenements. We did not if this was- I liked the food. Nobody likes the food in college, but I had spent summers in a different place where the food was so awful that the food in college seemed fabulous to me. IG: 15:29 And it was all very plain fare, right? AC: 15:31 It was a meal plan that you were obliged to be on. NC: 15:31 It was relatively plain, and you could not have, like, you could not have a piece of pie and an apple. So you have, you were forced to steal if you wanted to have an apple later, you had to, like, steal the apple, because [crosstalk] No, [crosstalk] NC: 15:49 You had to. AC: 15:50 And it was pretty mediocre food. NC: 15:53 It was, it was fine with me, except for the no two desserts. IG: 16:00 So how did you spend your free time? You said that you had a lot of time to get into trouble. And how did you get into trouble? What were the occasions for- NC: 16:11 It was the (19)60s. IG: 16:12 It was the (19)60s, but it was the early (19)60s. NC: 16:15 We were- AC: 16:16 We were very precautious. IG: 16:19 You were precautious. AC: 16:20 There was a lot of drinking. In those days 18 was the age of consent for drinking in bars in New York- NC: 16:29 But I have been drinking since 16. AC: 16:32 Many of us were not even 18 when we were freshmen at Harpur, I was 16, but the bars did not really care. They would be happy to sell you a 10-cent glass of beer. NC: 16:44 Broome County issued what was called a sheriff's card. Broome County would come onto the campus and the police would take your picture and make it official ID so that if you wanted to drink, you would have your sheriff's card. I lost mine. I found my Harpur ID card from 1962 but I do not have my sheriff's card, but that nobody looks that you drank everywhere. AC: 17:06 The Triple City Traction Corporation ran a bunch of busses on schedule into Binghamton or into Johnson City or into Endicott. So you could, you could take a bus or but mostly, we hitchhiked a lot. I hitchhiked. I mean, I lived off campus for years that I hitchhiked back and forth. NC: 17:25 We had parietal rules for the women. It was we had to be in a dorm at 10:30. On Friday and Saturday night, I think it was midnight. IG: 17:34 Right. NC: 17:35 And you could have two extra 12 o'clock this semester. It was insane, but when you think about it now, you could your parents had a sign of consent form of when you could stay off campus, like, can she go to religious retreats? Yes, can she stay with a friend in town? Yes. Well, everybody stayed in other place. The boys were allowed to live off campus, but they were not allowed to have a kitchen. AC: 18:05 Depends which year you're talking about. The rules kept changing. NC: 18:09 But they were allowed to have a kitchen because they were not supposed to be on the meal plan. IG: 18:12 Right. NC: 18:13 And so they would build like fake walls to cover the kitchen. AC: 18:18 Be respected by somebody from Harpur. NC: 18:20 And you could not have a kitchen sometimes. IG: 18:23 So you built a wall? AC: 18:25 I personally never you never- NC: 18:27 You never had it, but I know people who did have to do that in Floral Avenue. AC: 18:31 They put up a piece of sheetrock. NC: 18:36 But girls, but when you were a senior, you could have a key. The dorms were locked. There was bed checks. You had to sign in every night. Somebody had to sit in the office. That would have been a job of someone like me. But when you were a senior, you got a key, and you could use the senior key. And I was on the senior key committee in my senior year, and that was when we finally got them to agree that girls could live off campus and but I did not go because it was for the last semester of college that just seemed insane, although a few people I know did immediately leave, but I did not. But-but- IG: 19:15 Did these restrictions seem ludicrous harsh to you at the time? NC: 19:21 Yeah, they did. They seemed absolutely ludicrous. AC: 19:24 You could have, you could not have the opposite sex in your dormitory ever, except maybe four Sundays a semester. And the rule was four feet on the floor. NC: 19:35 And doors open, four feet on the floor. That was, that was the rule. IG: 19:39 Who would enforce these who would- NC: 19:41 There was like, it was not called a Dean of Women, but it was like the director of women's housing, was the enforcer. And then the- NC: 19:46 How would she know? Would she be patrolling? The- NC: 19:53 [crosstalk] would devolve down to someone like me, a dorm counselor. IG: 19:57 I see, I see, I see. But would you yell on infractions or- NC: 20:01 No, I never, I never reported anybody for anything. But, and there was absolutely no alcohol on campus. And yet, I remember somebody running down to my room saying, your friend needed a drink. And did I have a bottle of alcohol? Of course I did, and so she gave it to him. But just anyways, no, it was very, very strict, but, but then we hang, what did we do? We talked, we talked. IG: 20:33 What did they talking about? NC: 20:34 Everything. We were very interested in civil rights, really. Before-before Vietnam was, there were people who were sophisticated enough to know about the war, but we were much more interested in civil rights and the Civil Rights Club, but it was a really big deal. There was one television down in what they called something. It was not the it was, it was on the bottom through AC: 20:59 The basement of the dormitory. NC: 21:00 Yeah, there was a TV, but nobody ever watched TV except the night the Beatles were first in America, and then there was, there was a television in the student center. There was a TV room where we what we will ran when we heard the President had been shot, and then we went up to watch Walter Cronkite. But we talked, we talked, we talked and talked, and then what else we played. I played cards. I played cards. If anybody said, "Where were you when the Cuban Missile Crisis," I was playing cards in the snack bar. And where were you when Kennedy was shot, I was playing cards in the snack bar. Then we ran when we heard- AC: 21:42 The snack, the snack bar was the living room for the whole the whole college. IG: 21:50 So how many people could fit in? I mean- AC: 21:53 Hundreds. I mean, there were only 800 students total in the college, [crosstalk] and some of them were locals, but so there was plenty of room in the snack bar, and people cut classes and set the snack bar all day. NC: 22:08 I graduated in the bottom 10 of my class, not the bottom 10 percent , the bottom 10. IG: 22:16 What did you, what did you study? You said liberal arts. NC: 22:19 History. NC: 22:20 I studied more or less medieval history, and I still like it, and [crosstalk] but I you know anyway, IG: 22:21 History. NC: 22:22 Was that the Catholic girls education- NC: 22:33 I know why, what it would have I would have been better off studying English, because in those days, the kind of criticism they did really was-was a lot about symbolism. And man, if you were Catholic, you could have them like that. However, you needed to know a language, and I that meant you had to go to a class and actually study French or something. And I did not. AC: 22:53 Harpur had a very strong English department in the early days, much stronger than most of the other NC: 22:59 It was really it was famous. AC: 23:01 I mean, a lot of serious Ivy League PhD scholars. IG: 23:06 So is that what you studied? AC: 23:07 Yeah, I majored in English. IG: 23:09 So who-who did you study with? Do you remember- AC: 23:13 The most famous professor was Bernard Huppe, who taught the Chaucer and Middle English in those days to be an English major. It was so rigorous you were obliged to take old English. Can you imagine that you have to actually take old English and Chaucer and not only shake it, of course, in shakes, you had to take Milton. Can you imagine a whole semester of Milton. NC: 23:41 You did not have to take the Bible. NC: 23:41 And the Bible. NC: 23:43 But It was available. AC: 23:45 But it was a very it was as rig- I mean, they were trying to out Harvard-Harvard in terms of rigor for the English department. And they all, they-they were largely Catholic, the professors, or they were certainly, they- AC: 24:01 They certainly had a Christian- AC: 24:02 -Had a Christian, [crosstalk] A great professor was Weld, John Weld, who taught Milton, because nobody else would teach Milton, although Milton's beautiful. Francis X Newman was- NC: 24:26 Taught medieval literature as well as and I recently went to a not that recently, but in the last 15 years or so, an alumni event where he was giving a speech, and I had had him for a few classes. And what was he speaking? He was speaking about Alger, Horatio Alger, who's the who's the rugged dick. But it was not, it was Horatio Alger books. That is what he was teaching now. And I said, Wow, that is what, you know, I later in my life, I sold rare books and things, and. AC: 24:59 No, there were no fun courses nowadays. And you look at a college catalog, there are courses you actually might want to take, price novels about price fighting or movies about, [crosstalk] And those days- NC: 25:15 Now be a English major and never read anything written before 1920 say, whereas- IG: 25:20 That is unfortunate. NC: 25:22 Well, it is, but we-we really had a rigorous education. IG: 25:31 Your classmate, Ron Bayer said that the Harpur educational system was built on the University of Chicago- AC: 25:44 Yes- IG: 25:46 -liberal arts model- AC: 25:48 first year freshmen, or maybe freshmen, sophomores had to take literature [crosstalk] NC: 25:54 And 104, social sciences 101, 102. AC: 25:59 They were like core-core courses assured that you knew something about the entire history of the world. IG: 26:07 Did you find your classes enlightening? Did you enjoy them? NC: 26:15 Not so much. AC: 26:16 It depends. IG: 26:18 Tell us what you enjoyed, what did you like, and what made an impression, positive or negative? AC: 26:33 There were a lot of very- NC: 26:34 Different then, for example, in the snack bar, there was a kind of a wall, and the professors would go get because it was the only place you get something deep. They was eight in the other side of the wall. They never mingled. They did not chat with you. They did not talk to you. I did do some babysitting for various professors kids. So then they would pick me up in a car and take me to their house and then bring me home. So you might have a few words with them, but they were not friendly, and both of my children, who are not children, but one is 46 and the other is 38 but when they were in college, they were invited to tea, to the house, or come over for a party. It was a very different social scene than we had. Our professors did not- were not friendly, and did not really know who you were. For the most part. IG: 27:28 Was that your experience? AC: 27:31 Certainly for the freshman and sophomore years, it got much better as you were a junior or senior and majoring in something- NC: 27:40 So you might have had the same guy more than one time. AC: 27:44 But they fared. A lot of them were very mediocre. I mean, when I started out, they were teachers in the Triple- in the Triple Cities Community College branch of Syracuse University. I mean, that is what Harpur was. Harpur was a two year it was founded by Syracuse to accommodate veterans coming back after World War Two. IG: 28:06 Oh, I did not know. AC: 28:07 And it was in Endicott in in huts, right? I mean, in shabby-shabby. IG: 28:15 But yet it had this-this reputation of being well, NC: 28:19 Not that, not quite then. AC: 28:23 Then the state bought it, turned it into a full year liberal arts college, and made it good. But a lot of the professors were-were there since-since before they were, there were a lot of mediocre people around. IG: 28:40 Were there any outstanding ones that you remember? NC: 28:43 There was some very interesting ones. IG: 28:45 Interesting. Okay, so interesting. Let us do interesting. NC: 28:48 Amy Gilbert- IG: 28:49 Yes. NC: 28:50 Amy Gilbert, who was quite old. Now I do not know, because now I am old. I believe she was older than that I am now because she had been a journalist. She had been at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. She was talking, she had been in France, and she heard they were going to sign the treaty. We jumped on our bicycles and we raced out to Versailles. I mean, what is the first thing a historian does? What is the first thing? What is the first thing? Write it down. IG: 29:19 Yes. NC: 29:20 And I mean, but she-she really taught things that were kind of meaningful. She was not boring. IG: 29:26 No, [inaudible] AC: 29:28 Who was the art-art professor? NC: 29:32 Was it Ferber? AC: 29:34 No-no. NC: 29:35 Lindsay. Lindsay. AC: 29:36 Lindsay. Kenneth Lindsay was [crosstalk] was famous because in world, he was part of the American army that was recapturing stolen German art. There was movies about a railroad [crosstalk] IG: 29:55 Yes. AC: 29:55 Well, he was one of them. NC: 29:57 Oh, he is dead now. IG: 29:58 How interesting. AC: 29:58 Yes. IG: 29:59 How interesting. Yeah, so-so you had these, you think that these professors were the exception, rather than the rule that they- AC: 30:11 The school was growing so rapidly. It was doubling in size every year or two, and the faculty was doubling in size, and the more the new faculty were, had higher- NC: 30:25 I honestly did not- [inaudible] went to class [crosstalk] do anything [inaudible] IG: 30:33 So it was - NC: 30:34 Every semester I got [inaudible]. IG: 30:36 Well, it was what they say now, of MFA program that the-the hard part is getting in, but when once you're there, you can- AC: 30:47 Well, you have to be good enough to have a keep up a C average. NC: 30:50 I did not want to flunk out, so I did the minimum that I had to do. I was not sure. I always kind of thought I would be a teacher, but I would go to Bank Street, and Bank Street did not care about your marks. I had two or three personal interviews, AC: 31:11 [inaudible] submit finger prints. NC: 31:13 Shut up. I had personal interviews. I had to write 1000-word essays about myself. I could do that like that. It did not and Bank Street, but I had my best friend in senior year, Carol. I can say her name, she did, but she would go to the office about every two or three weeks to check her standing in class because she was applying to law school. And-and she said, "You want to know you?" I said, "No, I do not want to know." And I got through my whole senior year not knowing until they gave me my diploma, and I opened it up to see it was the right one. And there was a transcript and said, standing in class like 496 out of 506 kids, I was the bottom 10. AC: 32:01 No, I got good grades. IG: 32:02 Did you care or? NC: 32:04 No, I think it is hilarious. IG: 32:05 You thought it was hilarious because it was. NC: 32:08 It was not that the important, the I thought the best thing that ever happened to me still was that I went to Harpur. How lucky I was. I made friends, lifelong friends. I got a husband. I was exposed to the whole world. I had huge amounts of fun. I- it was, it was just the best thing that ever happened to me. But the going to school part was not that part. AC: 32:35 I took school more seriously than you did. I do not remember where I graduated, very high. Like in the top- NC: 32:43 Yeah, you graduated the 20th or the 13th or the sixth, AC: 32:47 I had lots of A's. NC: 32:48 Yeah, no A's, but, um, but it was it-it changed a lot. Now, Arthur is he graduated in (19)63 I graduated in (19)66 Ronnie graduated in (19)64 so each of us would have had a different kind of somewhat experience. IG: 33:06 So, how did you actually meet? You know, you met at college, and then how did you- IG: 33:13 You kept meeting. So you kept visiting. Nancy or- NC: 33:13 We kept meeting. AC: 33:17 No-no, I had another wife. NC: 33:19 He had another wife, was also Harpur- he only marries Harpur girl and- AC: 33:26 But it was a, it was a small crowd. We had parties together. NC: 33:30 You lived in Johnson City. Yeah, you were a teacher at Johnson City High School. AC: 33:34 Right. NC: 33:34 And then I had friends and, but then I just got, I met you. AC: 33:40 Right after I graduated, I went to graduate school in Florida for a year, and then I came back and lived in Johnson City. [crosstalk]I lived in Binghamton and taught high school in Johnson City, high- IG: 33:52 So what did you get your graduate degree in? AC: 33:53 I never got a graduate degree in anything. But I was, I was studying for a master's in English. IG: 34:01 I see, I see, so you returned after that year. AC: 34:05 Because my wife was still an under mighty first wife was still an undergraduate. IG: 34:11 I see. AC: 34:12 Two more years to go, I think. NC: 34:13 But then years, you know, then- AC: 34:16 And it was great living. And it was somewhat expensive. I had a five-room apartment with a front and a back deck for $75 a month. You could buy a whole pizza for 75 cents. My first job for teaching in Johnson City High School, I made $5,200 a year. I was rich. I could buy a new I bought a new Volvo, and lived for a year on that it was, was a great place to live. IG: 34:44 It is, it probably was a different city. It was not economically depressed. AC: 34:44 Oh yes, it was always [crosstalk] IG: 34:48 It was prosperous. It was a prosperous city, the city of IBM. No? IG: 34:56 It was already depressed. It was already beginning to be depressed. NC: 34:56 IBM was, was IBM was in the process of leaving. Johnson Endicott, Johnson Shoe Company was already pretty much over. And that was huge. It was called, it was a really big company, EJ, but that no, it was, it was kind of depressed city. AC: 35:19 But that was good because rents were cheap. Food was cheap. I mean, you could buy pierogies for a nickel at the Russian church every Friday. AC: 35:24 Supermarket and- AC: 35:32 Get bologna three pounds for $1 [laughs] NC: 35:39 It was all it was cheap with cheap-cheap living. IG: 35:41 So-so you know you- let us talk about what you know politics were in the air. You- did you fear being drafted. AC: 35:57 You did. It depends what year, but yes, politics were very much in the air, and I was one of the more in one of the more left-wing noise making crowds. There was a club called the progressive Socialist Society, founded by a couple of unrepentant Stalinists. And, among other things, we- Herbert Aptheker. We-we arranged for an actual communist. Herbert W Aptheker. He was a PhD in history, and he was really an expert on slave rebellions. But that was not important. What was important was he was a communist, and we invited him up to campus to speak. And this created such a brouhaha in the Binghamton press and in the pen, in the Sun Bulletin and town gown. Relations were very low at that time anyway, because Harpur kids were beatniks and so on. Not yet hippies, they were just beatniks. IG: 37:20 Were you at that? Did you- NC: 37:22 There were two kinds of people on campus. Well, sort of there were the upstate and the downstairs, and then they were called the sickies that would be downstate people, or people of that, who might like that from the upstate and clubbies who would might belong to a social club we did not have, we did not have fraternities, but there were social clubs that-that mostly boys belong to girls, but- IG: 37:52 You did not, you did not. AC: 37:54 I did not know. And to its credit, the college allowed Aptheker to speak, and it was a big deal. It was surrounded by policemen and everything. And- NC: 38:03 This is before my time. IG: 38:05 Yeah. AC: 38:05 And he came and he spoke and he went. NC: 38:07 And but so did. But also Eleanor Roosevelt came, right? IG: 38:11 Right. AC: 38:12 Yes. NC: 38:14 And [crosstalk] AC: 38:17 There were a lot, and it was also the era of the beginning of civil rights. It was- (19)63 was the, you know, the year of taking busses down to register people to vote. IG: 38:29 And did you? AC: 38:30 I did not. But people we knew did. Joined [crosstalk] NC: 38:38 [inaudible] and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. IG: 38:42 Were there any students of color that you remember from- AC: 38:46 Almost none. NC: 38:47 Two. AC: 38:47 Who were they? NC: 38:49 Julius Mangi, who, for some reason, came from Africa. And he thought he was, I think he thought he was going to go to NYU, but he ended up in SUNY. AC: 38:57 And Krishna. AC: 38:57 Right. He thought he was going to State University of New York. He thought he would be in New York, and he was in Vestal and he was the only black person in Vestal. [laughs] AC: 39:00 He was an Indian. NC: 39:12 And then there was a Margot, something, Margot, oh, Yvonne Yancey, I mean- AC: 39:18 But very few. If they were five in the whole campus. [crosstalk] professors. NC: 39:24 But there were, that is true there. But it was very active civil rights club, very active. And also going up to picket HUAC is House Un-American Activities Committee. They were they were resurgent in Buffalo. We took busses up to picket. I have pictures of me picketing outside of someplace I do not know. I go to work. IG: 39:53 Were you protesting against the house of Un-American Activities? Could you tell us about that? NC: 39:58 I can I. Forgot. IG: 40:00 You forgot. Okay, NC: 40:05 I thought about it, but, uh, IG: 40:06 Well, maybe, maybe you will remember in the course of this conversation, so you were active in this sort- NC: 40:16 [crosstalk] civil rights this did happen to me in Binghamton, and I do not even know why I did nothing about it at the time, there was a Conklin Avenue. Was a street near the river, was like right along the river, and there was an apartment building, and being with an apartment building might have only been two or three stories right. that refused to rent an apartment to a black dentist who had moved to Binghamton. So the Civil Rights Club decided they would picket this building, and I do not even remember what the outcome was, but we kept a picket line going in front of that building for a while. We all had shifts, and I had a shift with somebody whose name I forgot. His first name was Fred. I remember the rest of his name. Just the two of us on a Sunday morning, and we were on the sidewalk. There was a low a low brick wall and some hedges, and a car pulls up and like three guys jump out, pull out a long gun, like a rifle, aim it at us. We both leaped over the wall and lay down, and they laughed and got back in the car and drove away. And we have not told anybody. And I just think that all of that is very surprising when I think about it. And I was a freshman, then that was surprising. IG: 41:36 And-and, so do you remember approximately when this happened? NC: 41:41 I thinking it must have been in the spring of (19)63 in that it was not raining and we were not freezing, but I do not know. IG: 41:51 Did you tell anybody? NC: 41:53 Well, we may have told other friends, but we never told anybody in authority or the police or anything. IG: 41:58 Because? NC: 41:59 It never occurred to us. IG: 42:00 It never occurred because you were afraid that you were in some way- NC: 42:04 No. IG: 42:05 Breaking- NC: 42:05 No. It just did not occur to us. IG: 42:08 Did not occur to you. AC: 42:09 Because the place where the pigs- NC: 42:11 We did not think that then, I did not think that then, but anyway, but that would that was one thing that happened, another crazy thing that happened with the Civil Rights Club that was insane, and we had to get special permission from the head of women's housing. There was a department store called Brits, and it was in a shopping mall rather small, just a mile or so from the campus called Vestal Plaza and on George Washington's birthday, for reasons I do not know what they were going to have a- they were going to give silver dollars away for the first 200 people who got to the store. So the whole Civil Rights Club went there. 430 in the morning. We had to get permission for the girls to leave the campus and walk over there and get there when we all line up, we all got the silver dollars to donate to some civil rights organization you might have been there. IG: 43:13 So what, you know, I am just interested what took place at this in this kind of you said unrepentant. There were unrepentant Stalinists. AC: 43:24 It was more [crosstalk] Nothing serious. Nothing took place. Just to piss off the administration was like the [crosstalk] NC: 43:33 That was the goal of everything. AC: 43:36 -to see what you could do to make Dean Belniak's blood pressure go through the roof. NC: 43:41 Or just to see what you could get away with. Could you really sneak out and not get caught? Or could you really have had three bottles of brandy in your room and not get caught or, or could you have a boy in your room and not get caught? And- IG: 43:57 It is just testing the boundaries. NC: 44:00 It may have been something like that. That would not have been me, exactly, but-but I know that people did that. AC: 44:07 I was on the convocations committee that was which was [crosstalk] one of the highlights of my career at Harpur, the convocations committee had an annual but it was students, faculty and administration met [crosstalk]I do not know how often to plan the year's convocations, and- NC: 44:28 Meaning who you invite to the meeting. AC: 44:30 Meaning what- IG: 44:32 Right. AC: 44:35 Placido Domingo came up before anybody ever heard of Placido Domingo. It was, he looked like this. I thought he was a Mexican. He was not Mexican. Dispatched a Mexican. Came by bus. IG: 44:47 By bus? AC: 44:48 By bus from New York to Binghamton to sing for right, $100 maybe $150- we had a- IG: 44:55 Where was he then? Who? What opera was he in? NC: 44:58 [crosstalk] Our son, Michael, who is a reporter right now, is a, it is not a critic. He is a reporter for music, classical music, dance. And he knows Placido pretty well after all these years. And he once said, my father and mother saw you in Binghamton because it was early, ugly. But we, but no, you had the best thing I ever saw. There was Jose Contreras, Circle in the Square, Production of Under Milk Wood that you and W. H. Auden came. I mean we- IG: 45:22 [crosstalk] serious? AC: 45:24 No, I was his escort. I spent- IG: 45:29 Of whom? AC: 45:33 W. H. Auden. [crosstalk] NC: 45:38 He wore slippers, he wore orange bedroom slippers. AC: 45:45 And he somewhat disgraced himself. [crosstalk] I was a senior and we had the convocations committee, I guess, through an agent or through his publisher. You know, once you're holding convocations, they come to you asking for gigs. And he came up to give a speech. He came up the day before there was a little like a motel unit apartment for celebrities upstairs from in the snack bar building. IG: 46:08 How glamorous. AC: 46:20 And I was a senior, and I was at the time, I thought I was going to go to Africa to join the Peace Corps. And so he and I had a long talk about Isk Dinesen and Kenya and Africa, and- IG: 46:34 Had he been to those parts? AC: 46:36 He or me? I do not know if he had. I certainly had not, but he knew he was like innocent or and we I picked him up for breakfast. We went to the stack well for breakfast, we sat around and had breakfast. IG: 46:52 So how did you he strike you? What did he was? What? How did he look like [crosstalk] AC: 46:58 He was, he was a drunk. He was a pathetic drunk. NC: 47:04 But he still read his poetry and he was charming and he was neat. IG: 47:09 Do you remember what he read? AC: 47:11 No. IG: 47:11 No, you do not remember. Would it be on record what he read? NC: 47:15 It might be in the if they have the Annals of the newspapers. AC: 47:19 I do not know. NC: 47:21 There was still called the Colonial News. IG: 47:25 -is in the process of working [crosstalk] AC: 47:29 It have been in the spring of (19)63. IG: 47:36 So he was, he was already drunk. AC: 47:39 No, he was not. IG: 47:40 In the morning? AC: 47:41 No-no. But by the time he read at the auditorium or the theater in the evening, IG: 47:49 After he read? AC: 47:50 No, before, during he was kind of, his teeth were kind of falling out of his mouth, a little, sloshing around, but, but it was brilliant. I mean, I am not trying to [crosstalk] IG: 48:05 Were, you know, all of the English faculty kind [crosstalk] NC: 48:08 I think everybody was, look, yeah, as we have said, there was nothing to do. We had this theater that really the convocations committee. AC: 48:17 Then they hired the Guarneri Quartet for several years, the Guarneri Quartet was artist in residence at Harpur. NC: 48:27 And they were phenomenal. And you could go to the free rehearsals. It was free. AC: 48:31 And their performances, artists in residence, mean they gave four or five performances a year, or- NC: 48:39 At least. AC: 48:40 -maybe more than that. And you could go to them, and they were all 27 years old at that time also. NC: 48:48 One of them was, it was David Sawyer, I believe, who- AC: 48:52 The cellist. NC: 48:54 -who could not record because he was a heavy breather. And in those days, they did not know how to get that sound out. But, of course, later on he was, they were making recordings. But we had the Pearl Lang Dance Company. We had, we had amazing shows. NC: 49:11 And Peter and [crosstalk] NC: 49:13 Peter Wood was-was-was the outstanding thing in my mind, but-but that we saw lots of things- are just people who- AC: 49:22 There was also a lot of student produced theater. We had a really pretty high quality. NC: 49:28 [crosstalk] matches. AC: 49:29 Okay, there you go. NC: 49:31 You and you were in the sandbox. AC: 49:33 I played daddy in the sandbox. NC: 49:36 No, and you played Uncle Tom in Uncle Tom's Cabin, right? AC: 49:40 That was different. But, yeah. IG: 49:41 Why is it different? AC: 49:44 It was not a real it was not, was not a real theatrical production, on the stage with an audience. NC: 49:51 It was in the coffee house. AC: 49:53 Yeah. NC: 49:53 But they tried to, I mean, we had a good time. IG: 49:57 You had a good time. And I think sounds like you were exposed to really kind of a deep culture with some really important cultural and- AC: 50:07 The prevailing attitude was Marx Brothers, Looney Tunes. IG: 50:13 Yeah. AC: 50:13 I mean, at least IG: 50:17 In America, and kind [crosstalk] AC: 50:19 No, the attitude among my friends and fellow students. We were wise guys. NC: 50:26 Funniest people I ever met in my life. I and I do not think you can be really funny unless you're really smart. And I could not believe my good fortune to be in this place with people. I hope we're just hysterical now, even now on Facebook, we're old and that sort of we do Facebook, and there are a group of horrible people, and sometimes you will get a thread of things that will just have me laughing, and it is exactly they are exactly the same as they were, even though I have not seen them in 40 years, these the repartee is very-very-very clever and funny and smart, but- AC: 51:07 There was Binghamton radio disc jockey or call and talk show host. IG: 51:17 I Think I interviewed somebody who [crosstalk] AC: 51:20 For months, a couple of students, whom we will not name, would call him up with funny accents and engage him in the most ludicrous conversation. NC: 51:34 I have a magic act, and I cannot get hired any man in Binghamton. [laughter] [inaudible] the tip of my tongue, but I want to say I cannot remember the name of the show. AC: 51:48 Okay. NC: 51:50 Speak for yourself. I think that is what. It was cool. Speak for yourself. Ultimately, they caught us. NC: 51:56 So what happened? [crosstalk] NC: 51:59 They just hanging their phone calls. But it was truly hilarious. IG: 52:05 So how did, how did the talk show host feel these answers? AC: 52:12 He was blindsided. He was taking this seriously. NC: 52:16 And then other people would call in to respond. But the people there were so really-really funny and clever in ways and outrageous, and it made it a lot of fun. AC: 52:34 A highlight of my four years there was when the Aunt Jemima Pancakes House, Pancake House opened down the highway, NC: 52:42 Right across the from campus [crosstalk] AC: 52:49 Um, for their opening month or three months- NC: 52:52 Was not that long. IG: 52:53 [inaudible] on site? AC: 52:53 Yes. NC: 52:53 But then there was the great- there were a lot of along Vestal Highway. I do not know if it is still called vessel highway. There was a number of steak houses. And then there was the weekend of the great steak stealing contest. Many different, many different students worked in kitchens or waiters, and the idea was, who could steal the best, the most steak. It was relatively harmless, stealing steaks from the restaurant that underpaid you. IG: 52:53 But what kind of music were you listening to at the time? Do you remember? AC: 52:53 Folk. AC: 52:53 I do not know what it was. It was all you could eat for dollar 25 right across the highway from a campus with a bad meal plan, so we drove them crazy. I mean, waitresses are crying and quitting. I mean, we come in and say, I would like two large glasses of fresh orange juice and eight orders of bacon, please. NC: 53:01 In the beginning, was folk, but, but by the time it was I was really heavy stones. And you know, the more druggy we became, the more less folky we became. AC: 54:09 No drugs in my early years. NC: 54:11 There were no drugs and, well, there were drugs in my early years, but I did not have the good sense to use them. Ultimately, I and some of these things stay with you for the rest of your life. And here we are, of course, more than a half a century later. And- IG: 54:27 So how different were these, were this experience of theater, of Guarneri String Quartet, from your family upbringing? Was this a different world, or was this a continuation- NC: 54:40 Totally different. AC: 54:42 Oh, yeah, this was getting cultured, that you go to college to get cultured. NC: 54:46 My family was half Spanish, and so what we, if we-we would go see flamenco dancing, sometimes in Carmen and Maya, but once I was sent to the Metropolitan Opera. And I thought, kill me now, but now, anytime I can go, I am so thrilled, and I get to go quite often. I did get to Broadway plays when I was a kid because they were affordable, unlike now, if there was a blizzard in New York, my mother would say, "Quick, get on the subway, go up and get tickets," and there would be cancelation So, but they were cheap. They were truly cheap, not now anyway. But no, this was all new. It was funny. I grew up in the village, and I was walking out of my school singing, "Oh, Mary, we crown thee with blossoms today." Bob Dylan was probably across the street singing, but I never saw him. I was doing something other than, you know, I did not well. I hung around the streets. And very interesting. IG: 55:51 You were also young. NC: 55:52 Yes, but-but we were also out all the time and [crosstalk] AC: 55:56 A lot of movies. This was in the day before there were VCRs or DVDs or anything. And so- NC: 56:04 That is right, movies. AC: 56:07 And it was a- the convocations committee showed some movies, but in the private or student clubs, as a fundraising event, would rent, uh- NC: 56:22 I do not know about that, Mondo Connie. I remember going to the movies in Binghamton. It was cheap. Movies were cheap. AC: 56:29 But like, we would rent a movie, you get it in reels of 16-millimeter film from Janus, and you charge 50 cents admission, and you would show an Ingrid Bergman, Ingmar Bergman, or some of the European you know, high class post World War Two movies. NC: 56:53 For lots of us- AC: 56:55 Because there was almost always a movie somebody was showing on the weekend. NC: 56:59 For all of our friends, even, who are my friends now, none of their parents went to college. None of them did such cultural things. We learned it in college. We had- it was a lot of fun. IG: 57:13 So tell me about you know, just give me kind of a general kind of trajectory of your lives after you graduated, you went to Bank, Street School, you at some point- NC: 57:27 I went to Bank, married, I became a teacher, and he ultimately became a teacher. He was still avoiding the draft. AC: 57:42 I spent several years of avoiding the draft. I went to graduate school in Florida. NC: 57:48 They would not let him into Peace Corps. AC: 57:50 [crosstalk] the draft. I could not get into the Peace Corps because of my left-wing background. This was the very earliest years of the Peace Corps. Kennedy was president, Sergeant Shriver was head of the Peace Corps, and they were very nervous about hiring communists. I was not a communist. IG: 58:09 But you were, I mean, [crosstalk]. How did they know that you were a communist? AC: 58:13 The FBI was- they really did background checks on every Peace Corps applicant. I mean, they were interviewing my neighbors in Brooklyn, my parents, neighbors in Brooklyn. NC: 58:25 From where you moved out when you were two or something even. AC: 58:29 So, but anyway, the Peace Corps would not have me, but they got me into graduate school in Florida, after which I got a teaching job, which was defer draft deferrable. And I also married somebody which was also draft deferrable, somebody not Nancy. And I taught there for three years. NC: 58:51 Then-then, she went to graduate school in the city, and so you moved to the city, and I was already teaching in the city, and this was in the late (19)60s, and there was this enormous teachers strike. Albert Shanker, I do not remember these names, and it was a huge-huge strike. And they were, I am making the numbers up here, but something like 35,000 striking teachers and 100 scabs-scabs. It was political at that time. At this time, I was saying it was it was it probably incorrect position, but days it seemed like the correct position. And there were meetings and I- NC: 59:32 Teachers teaching for the community. NC: 59:32 Teachers teaching for the community. IG: 59:36 Tell us, what are scabs for the purpose of this? AC: 59:40 Scabs are teachers who cross the picket line to go into work NC: 59:44 Scab, you know, and I had to walk past my coworkers who would spit on me as I walked into my school in East Harlem, which I had to open with a crowbar to get the chains off the door because the schools had been locked and we slept there in. In sleeping bags, but, and there were people who to this day, if I said they would not speak to me, but I do not care. AC: 1:00:09 And I was teaching at the time in Brooklyn and Sheepshead Bay High School, which had probably 200 faculty and six scabs. And it was unpleasant. AC: 1:00:09 It was unpleasant. Yes. IG: 1:00:21 So how did you- NC: 1:00:24 There were meetings for the people who were the teachers, and since the only 100 and all city. IG: 1:00:30 Right. NC: 1:00:31 We-we met, and I do not know. AC: 1:00:35 And we had mutual friends all from Harpur. NC: 1:00:38 Over the years, we had been at parties at the same time. AC: 1:00:42 But this time I was not married. NC: 1:00:43 This time he was not married, and I was, you know, loose ends, and they kept buying the same records, AC: 1:00:50 And she had an apartment with an air conditioner. NC: 1:00:54 And I had a dental plan, and that was it. I do not forget why I married you, because I thought you were handy. AC: 1:01:04 I was handy. I put down a new floor in your kitchen. NC: 1:01:07 Yeah, it was six tiles. AC: 1:01:08 The kitchen was so small that it took nine tiles. NC: 1:01:13 But then you never did it again. IG: 1:01:17 So how did you-you know, and how did you end up in this beautiful apartment? And from being, from being in that small space with six tiles to- NC: 1:01:28 Arthur, he was very successful, but he did. AC: 1:01:34 After my second-year teaching, and Sheepshead Bay, I quit teaching. NC: 1:01:40 That is when we got married. NC: 1:01:42 She might have heard. Do you know the Gale research company? AC: 1:01:42 And that is when we got married. I was able to quit teaching, because I by that time, I was 26 and not draftable. And we got married, and I looked for jobs. I got jobs writing- IG: 1:01:59 Yes. AC: 1:02:00 I worked for writing advertisements to librarians for the- their various series, The Encyclopedia of Associations, contemporary authors. IG: 1:02:11 Of course, I know, I know that series very well. AC: 1:02:14 Okay, well, I had nothing to do with the series except selling it. They had an office in New York where we wrote junk mail, catalogs and brochures and mailings to librarians to get them to buy Gale products. IG: 1:02:30 I remember the hard copy version of Gale, the contemporary authors, the various kinds of- AC: 1:02:37 I only knew the hard copy version. NC: 1:02:39 I am going to walk away [crosstalk] AC: 1:02:46 That was a good job, because I was in a two-person office, and I learned everything from my boss, not just in writing the copy, but in cutting out the proof, the-the print. Prints and pasting them down on the mechanicals and wrapping the boards and taking them to the post office to send to the printer. And I learned the whole direct mail industry. IG: 1:03:14 Did you interact with the authors at all, or editors? AC: 1:03:18 No, the editor's slides- most of what Gail was selling were so called scholarly reprints of Victor of out of print, and therefore public domain, Victorian studies of folklore and stuff like that. It was really happened to be the interest of the guy who owned the company. IG: 1:03:41 But I remember, you know, I remember 20th century Russian authors in that series, and contemporary author, I remember, I remember using that encyclopedia myself for, you know, my-my studies. AC: 1:03:58 Well, do you know better than I. IG: 1:04:00 My Russian literature, yeah. AC: 1:04:02 And by that time we had a baby, and I was making very little money, but my boss at Gale connected me to his friend at an advertising agency called R. L. Polk, and they hired me just a few blocks away, and suddenly I was making much more money, and I became a direct mail advertising creator, creative director, writer, copywriter, mostly for magazines and books and book clubs and also insurance companies and fundraisers, and I did that for them, for well, there was [crosstalk] back and forth, few jobs in here and there, but I ultimately left that to go freelance and. From 1986 until now. Well, I am now retired, but I was self-employed as a direct mail freelance writer and designer, and that that is [crosstalk] I bought this apartment. IG: 1:05:22 And you? NC: 1:05:24 I taught for a couple of years. Had baby. Always thought I would go right back to work, as my mother did. She went back to work before I was two, but then I realized do not want to do that. I was very-very different from women my age. They all wanted to fulfill themselves and go to work and-and they needed the money, but we were able to pare back our lives in a way that I did not go back to work. I stayed home with Michael, and then I had a second child a number of years later, but I did not go back to work till Eddie was 29 I did not be but I volunteered all the time. What did I do? I-I volunteered, doing two things, playing the guitar in nursery schools, music with little kids, because I am pretty good at that. But I also learned the used book business, and first, as a volunteer, sold books for a nonprofit called the Hudson Guild on north side in Chelsea, they would have a book fair every year, and I would work on that, and ultimately run that. And then they decided not to do that anymore, and I began working for a group called Housing Works. And Housing Works is a pretty big aids homeless group, but they have a bookstore in on Crosby Street in Soho, and I worked there for 13 years, selling rare books online and in the store. IG: 1:06:57 As a volunteer? NC: 1:06:58 No-no employee. And I still, I was there Monday. I still do that. I like a lot. IG: 1:07:07 That is nice. NC: 1:07:08 So I am fun, and I know a lot about books. And it is, you know, this weekend is- AC: 1:07:14 Yes, the Park Avenue - NC: 1:07:15 -is the biggest. IG: 1:07:17 Armory? AC: 1:07:18 Yeah. IG: 1:07:19 Big wood. NC: 1:07:19 Big book fair. IG: 1:07:21 Book fair. Oh. AC: 1:07:21 This is the classiest, largest book fair anywhere. IG: 1:07:25 Rare books. NC: 1:07:26 Yes, this will happen. You know what they call elephant folios of order by Princeton [crosstalk] AC: 1:07:32 You can get in for $25. NC: 1:07:35 I do not- is it that I did not, I am not going. I cannot walk, so I am done with that for the moment. IG: 1:07:41 Okay, well, you know, I think that maybe you know the concluding questions are that I usually ask at the conclusion of the interview is, what lessons, what life lessons did you learn that you think would help current students at Binghamton University, or, you know, future, future students that are listening to these tapes. What really got you through the- NC: 1:08:15 Trends. But I cannot imagine it so large now it is just one of our nieces went there. It is huge. It is just, I have not been back in a number of years. I went to a few reunions, but it is really far, really far, and I had a fabulous time. AC: 1:08:35 Not as far as it used to be. NC: 1:08:36 No. AC: 1:08:37 When I started going there, it was seven hours to drive there from New York City, because there was a route 17 ended in about in Monticello, in the Catskills. We're living somewhere. And from-from there to Binghamton was a narrow, winding two lane road in you would invariably be stuck behind a milk truck going uphill and with no passing possibilities. And it took seven hours to drive from New York to Binghamton. Now it takes three. IG: 1:09:10 That is terrible. NC: 1:09:11 It was five and a half the first time my parents took me there. IG: 1:09:14 As it is now, three and a half hours is pretty exhausting. NC: 1:09:17 Yeah. It got better when we could go through Pennsylvania. AC: 1:09:20 The fastest way still, is through Scranton. [crosstalk] NC: 1:09:24 And that was also very scenic, but, so I do not it was just friends that that have meant everything to me, and here I am still. I mean, we have a house on [inaudible] because my college roommate has a house one walk away from me. We still, yeah, we're friends forever. We have a number of couples who are still married in the time when so many people are not still married. Okay. We're married 49 years. Yeah. A tip for you. You always had your marriage on, but we- what was a lot of fun in early years after college was that everybody came back to New York to see their parents, and they would come see us now, their parents were all dead, so we do not see them so much they stay in California. AC: 1:10:22 Being a Harpurites, Harpur graduate who lived in Manhattan, you would get a lot of company from other Harpurites who were coming to the city to visit for Christmas week or whatever. IG: 1:10:35 So for you, what do you have any message to convey to the future. AC: 1:10:43 I guess be cynical, I guess is my most important point. Be questioning. Be negative. NC: 1:10:53 I am nothing like that. AC: 1:10:57 Do not believe anything they tell you. IG: 1:10:59 So it is a good lesson. Any concluding remarks. NC: 1:11:10 It was very pretty. There was the country. It is not so much anymore. I mean, I have seen it. They used to be, could just walk up behind the dorms. AC: 1:11:17 We had a tree house. I mean, one of the reasons. One of the reasons they thought I was a bad example was a couple of friends and I just walking. There was probably buildings there by now. Keep going up the hill, uphill from the campus, and you were in the woods. And it was, it was complete woods. I mean, you could not see anything in any direction, and we built a tree house and would go there and sit around. We never smoked anything there, maybe not in the early years. IG: 1:11:52 Why do you think that you have the reputation of being inspiring person? Do you- NC: 1:12:02 [crosstalk] Zany. AC: 1:12:05 Yeah, there was a lot of zaniness involved. And this was also the age of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. And for example, in my freshman year, living in Hinman dormitory on the second floor, I collected 10 cents from every kid on the floor every month, and bought comic books and bought and so that there would be about eight there were three toilet stalls in the bathroom, and each in each toilet stall, I had about eight comic books on a string tied in. And this was, one was adventureland, one was fantasy, yeah, and one was and every month I put in 8-24, fresh comic books. That is just an example. IG: 1:12:05 Oh, Zany. IG: 1:12:55 [crosstalk] material, yeah, yeah, but that is kind of an inventive idea. NC: 1:12:58 It is funny. I did not know you did that. I did that too when I was a dorm counselor, but it was not comic books. It was all girls, yeah, girls dorms. And I did that. I did that too. I must see it. It was, it was a very great time for me those four years, and I did learn things, despite the fact I am so sorry that I did not learn that I should have majored in art history. I did not discover Art History till maybe the first semester of my junior year, and I thought I died and gone to heaven, but in those days, you did. Nobody stayed in college more than four years. You knew you went for four years, and nobody had the money for the extra year, so you could not make all your requirements if you did that. But-but I-I would always like history, but art history was even better, because it was everything. It was history and sociology and philosophy and politics, and- IG: 1:14:05 It had, from what I know, it had a tremendous Art History and Art Department. NC: 1:14:11 It did, but I never had Lindsay. I well, I did a little bit, but there was a guy who was in art. I wish I could think of his name. He was a curator at the Morgan. IG: 1:14:26 I know him. Wolfley. NC: 1:14:29 That is it. I have gone on tour there with him. IG: 1:14:33 I bought tours with him too. NC: 1:14:40 But there was a lot of- I wish. I wished that I had known about art history, but just it was something, and I wish they had not made me take Bio, Sci or geology, although, in fact, Geology has, even though I got a D. Shut up, it stood me in good stead. I still know a little bit about what I am looking at when I am out in the world. But I wish I could have taken it a little more cultured. I would have been better off had majored in art history. AC: 1:15:11 I would like to learn something about Charles Eldred, who was he was a senior when I was a freshman, and the artist, correct. I will find out. And he died, yes, young, and I do not know how, although he smoked [inaudible] nonstop. NC: 1:15:38 He had a wife. His wife, wife's name [inaudible] and his son's name is Charles, and Chuck is-is an architect, because I once Googled Charles Eldred and I have got Chuck. AC: 1:15:47 There is a museum in Binghamton called the Roberson gallery. They had a show there. In fact, we have a poster of it in the bathroom. [crosstalk] And he was an extremely aside from being a talented artist, he was zany and crazy and wonderful. I mean, he was, he was built, he built an ornithopter. IG: 1:16:11 What is that? AC: 1:16:18 If you imagine a something Leonardo da Vinci, a helicopter built by Leonardo da Vinci out of wood with thick wings, that flap. I mean, it did not work, but it was a built it out of wood. Months building an ornithopter, and with a very good sense of humor. IG: 1:16:40 He actually built it, yeah, did it work? AC: 1:16:43 No, he did not. I mean, he never tried to, never took it on the roof and tried to fly. No, it would definitely not work. it was a joke. And Lindsay, after he graduated, Lindsay hired him to stay on, to teach art. And there is a whole lot of Harpur alumni who studied art, from-from Doc, from Professor Eldred. AC: 1:17:13 But he was an outstanding considering an unknown artist, he was totally unknown in the world of art, and we great. NC: 1:17:13 And who have, we have a number of friends who have an Eldred or two in their house. We have more than an Eldred or two. NC: 1:17:31 We think he is good. AC: 1:17:34 That concludes our meeting for today. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cooper, Arthur ; Cooper, Nancy ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Art and Nancy Cooper.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-09 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 77:38 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/423e87f8bfae7806ac0e316e94f3a76d.mp3 15a0b316ed6ea0047dfbb5e3363f9fdd https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93eb503df4ac2d95351465398ea29a3f.jpg 0d9768e557072696819bb8bdc5c8e968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Year of Graduation 1965 and 1968 Biographical Text Paul Ginsburg, Ph.D. is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. <br /><br />Gail Ginsburg is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paul B. Ginsburg and Gail T. Ginsburg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 -ask you to introduce yourselves and just say, when you were born, what years you attended Binghamton, and what we are doing here. PG: 00:14 Okay. IG: 00:16 Where we are. PG: 00:17 Yeah, I am Paul. I am Paul Ginsburg, and I was born in 1945 graduated from Binghamton, which we called Harpur College, then in 1965 so I was very much a youngster, as many of my peers from New York City were at that time. GG: 00:42 And I am Gail Ginsburg. I was born in 1948 and I graduated in 1968 also it was Harpur College at that point, and I think that is all right. IG: 01:01 So, what-what are we doing here? PG: 01:03 Oh, sure. And we are being interviewed by Irene Gashurov- IG: 01:09 Yes. PG: 01:10 -who's doing--what do you call it? IG: 01:12 Oral history. PG: 01:13 Oral history of the college in the 1960s. GG: 01:18 Of which we have some experience. [laughter] IG: 01:23 Alright, so Paul, let us begin with you. So just tell us a little bit about where you grew up. You mentioned New York, who your parents were, you know, what-what, whether they encouraged you to go to college, PG: 01:39 Yeah. Well, so I did grow up in New York, New York City, in the Bronx, and there was never any discussion about going to college. It was assumed. And I assumed it as well. I was very intrigued about the idea of going away to college, which perhaps is a reason that I wound up going to Harpur rather than one of the city university colleges in New York City. IG: 02:11 So, your parents- PG: 02:12 Oh, and sorry, you know, my parents were native born. They were- their parents were immigrants, and my father was an administrator in the New York City government. And my mother, I think by that point, had been working also in the New York City government. I think she went back to work when my brother and I were in high school. IG: 02:44 I am curious. Where were the immigrants from? PG: 02:48 Oh, Russia. PG: 02:48 From Russia. PG: 02:49 But not my parents. Their-their parents. IG: 02:51 They were [inaudible]. I understand your grandparents. Do you know where? PG: 02:56 Yeah, I think I know my father's family came from Belarus, what today is called Belarus. IG: 03:03 It was a Russian Empire. PG: 03:04 That is right. IG: 03:07 And you Gail, where did you grow up? Who your parents were, you know? GG: 03:14 So, I grew up on Staten Island in one of the boroughs of New York City. I went to high school in Manhattan, so I had a long commute to high school. My parents were from New Jersey, and their families went back a long time. I have relatives who lived in Rahway in going back to the early 1800s but they moved to Staten Island because they had a business opportunity. They bought a small business, and just before my father was drafted into World War Two, and my mom stayed and worked the whole business during the war. And so, I was raised, probably by the original feminist. They were not college educated, but they- there was no question we were going to college. My sister, who's older, went to college, and it seemed like a good experience. So, it was never a question I was going to go to college. IG: 04:20 So why did you decide on Harpur College? GG: 04:29 Well- IG: 04:31 What was the reputation that you knew of Harpur College at the time? GG: 04:35 I would not say there was a lot of decision in that. My family was pretty unsophisticated when it came to understanding about colleges compared to the knowledge that Paul and I have now. It is probably shared with our children. You just applied where a guidance counselor thought you had a chance to get in. And in some of the places I applied to, I was not accepted in. I was first year of the baby booms, and so there were a lot of surprises that year on acceptances, and Harpur just seemed like a very good choice. Some of the other choices I had were very expensive, and my father had just lost a lot of money, so he was really happy for me to go to Harpur. IG: 05:25 Well, it is maybe too personal to ask how he lost a lot of money. GG: 05:29 He was a businessman. IG: 05:32 Okay, [inaudible] GG: 05:33 He was not necessarily low risk kind of person. He had his company, and he retained that, but he had invested a lot of money in a-a process that-that coated fabric, and this- his friend of his had a patent on it, and they started their business, and they were really out competed by DuPont. It was pretty hard for them to get muscle into that market. So, he lost a fair amount of money at that point, and it was just before I was that year and a half before I started college. But we were not impoverished. [crosstalk] PG: 06:15 I went to Harpur because I mentioned I wanted to be in a residential school, and just given my sense of what the tuition would be, even with scholarships at private universities, the tuition difference was very large. And my parents were a fairly modest income and-and I was impressed with Harpur's reputation. The fact that it was a small liberal arts college was attractive to me. IG: 06:52 Did you visit it before your first semester? PG: 06:56 No. IG: 06:57 And, yeah-yeah. So, what were some of your first impressions when you two city kids came to this very rural place? GG: 06:57 No. GG: 07:07 Well, my sister went to Elmira college, so I was already familiar with the southern tier, so it did not surprise me that much. The one thing that surprised me was that it was kind of far out of town. It was like a suburban location, and I was sort of surprised at that, especially since few of us had cars, it was kind of isolating. PG: 07:32 Yeah, I would say that, you know, I knew it was going to be somewhat rural, well, not really rural, but just in a small city location. It did not disappoint me. I did not expect to have much time for taking advantage of the location. I expected to be really mostly involved in both work and campus social activities, so I never had that much interest, actually, of getting off campus, because so much was there on the campus. IG: 08:09 Did you anticipate what type of social activities these would be, just kind of hanging out with other young people or? PG: 08:17 Yeah, being with other people. There was, at least at that time, a lot of culture was brought to the campus, you know, concerts, movies, actually, there seemed to be plenty to do. I was not as focused on food as I am now. So, the fact that the food was going to be awful, and was truly awful, and that they were no convenient restaurants right nearby did not factor in. IG: 08:49 So-so what was your program of study? What-what did you major in? PG: 08:55 Oh, well, I started out as a math major, but had an interest in economics. And when I got to the- guess, my fourth math course in, say, the spring of my sophomore year, that is when I decided that math was not for me, and I, you know, was well along in economics and decided that is what I would do. IG: 09:26 So, what- who were, you know, maybe some of the faculty that made an impression on you, what-what changed you from wanting to pursue math as a as a subject of study to economics? PG: 09:44 Well, that is hard to say. I mean, it is- I did have an outstanding initial math teacher, perhaps for the full year and a half calculus sequence. And but there is nothing wrong with it. Teacher after that, it was a striking change in the nature of the subjects to highly theoretical mathematics, whereas the first three semesters were quite practical. Same, you know, an engineer might have taken that course, not that there were engineering students at Harpur at the time, so I always characterize it as just seeing what at least the math major was conceived of at Harpur. And, you know, did not find that engaging. I think I had a very good- all the freshmen took a social science course at the time which exposed them to all of the social sciences. And when they were sophomores, they actually took an introductory course in selected social science. And both my social science course and gone very well. I kind of remember the instructor was a young man with a dashing silver streak in his hair. And we used to refer to him students as the Silver Streak. But he was, you know, charismatic teacher. And so, in a sense, then I began the regular economics course. I enjoyed that a great deal. IG: 11:26 So, what appealed to you about economics? How did it open vistas for you- your understanding of the world? PG: 11:34 Yeah, I just found the subject matter very engaging. And, you know, sticking with economics and becoming a professional economist, I think the thing now, I could think of it as the ability to, you know, think very analytically and to understand an economy and how things impact. It just very engaging all the time. IG: 12:04 But nothing-nothing particular and nothing, nothing you know, a gem of insight does not stand out from those years that you all of a sudden, because of this course of study, something began to make sense. Your apprehension of the world changed. No, it was not like that. PG: 12:24 No, I think it was just, it was a subject I had not been exposed to high school. IG: 12:29 Yeah. PG: 12:31 There are high school economics courses these days. I do not know how successful they are, but it was just-just finding the subject matter very engaging. IG: 12:40 Right-right. Any so, any professors in economics that you would like to mention as having a particular impact? PG: 12:50 Yeah, I would say the it was Professor John Latourette. Actually, I liked a lot of the faculty. It was Latourette, too. I do not remember if I took the introductory course from him or not, but I know he was my advisor, and as a senior, actually did some research with him and-and I remember some Alfred Carlip was, you know, very good professor, someone named, I think, Leiman [Melvin Leiman], where the subject matter of the course was not that interesting, but I liked him. So, there were a lot of engaging professors there at the time. Cannot think of anyone I did not like. Oh, and then, actually, the professor at my senior seminar, his name is Vucasin [Peter Vukasin], was an outstanding teacher and helped me decide which graduate school to go to. IG: 13:59 And where did you go? PG: 14:01 I went to Harvard. And what he told me is that, see, I had gotten into all that I had applied to, all in the same day that I had been awarded a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, which, at that time used to have money attached to it, and so they all accepted me, since I had my own money. IG: 14:22 So where did you get where else did you get accepted? PG: 14:25 Oh, I think Yale, Johns, Hopkins, those are the ones I remember. IG: 14:30 Why did you choose Harvard? I mean- PG: 14:33 Well, what Vukasin said to me is that, in a sense, "You do not have very specific, defined interests. Go to Harvard. You like Cambridge," and I guess that was pretty good advice. IG: 14:48 And so, did you do a PhD, or? PG: 14:50 Yes, what I should tell you, I am sure you have heard it from some others, is that I would much rather have worked as an economist after college to see what it was like. IG: 15:02 Right. PG: 15:04 I did not expect to be an academic and but you know, that was better than being drafted. IG: 15:12 Right. PG: 15:14 Reason I got a PhD is both learning that the-the top programs in economics did not bother with master's programs. What I found actually at Harvard is that the master's degree was what was given to the students that the PhD students who were not going to make it- PG: 15:40 To the PhD. PG: 15:41 -to PhD level. So, in a sense, and there were, there is a lot of scholarship money for PhD programs, nothing for master's programs at lesser universities. So, I got into a PhD program. IG: 15:59 Gail, did you, you know, were you married at the time, or what-what? GG: 16:07 No. IG: 16:07 Okay, so let us, let us trace back to your course of study at Binghamton, and what you know, why you chose the major that you did and what faculty made a particular impression on your formation? If you, if you can say that GG: 16:29 Sure, I started out as initially as a science major. I was interested in biology or chemistry, I was not sure, and so I started the introductory--the initial years of requirements are pretty similar between those two majors. So, I started those programs, and then I also in taking your distribution requirements, found that I really liked literature, and so I was taking, kind of following this path for the first two years, of taking trying to meet my distribution requirements, but also taking my science and then I would take extra literature courses as I could fit them in, and there was always a competition between the two. But in the sense that I- in my comparative anatomy class, I think it was Professor Landry [Stuart O. Landry] was the professor, and he saw my notebook and realized that I could sketch. And so, he had me- I did some illustrations for him. And it was a lot of fun. IG: 17:50 What kind of illustrations? GG: 17:51 They were anatomical. In those days, most biology was very descriptive. IG: 17:55 Right. GG: 17:56 So, it was skulls, all different kinds of skulls. He was, I guess, doing comparative analysis of the evolution of the- these different animals. And it was very interesting, because I had kind of a distant, not-not very much, not a firm relative, but very distant one who was a medical illustrator, and so I had actually seen some of his work, and he- so there was this one side with me, doing art and science, and then the other side was the literature professor at the same time, Robert Kroetsch, who was a writer, novelist, and he was a fantastic professor, and he kept urging me to major in literature. So, I had these competing interests, and I- there are two things that made me really made literature actually went out in the end, and that was that I did not know what I was going to do with a science major. I did not think that I wanted to go to medical school, and absolutely all my classmates in my science classes were highly competitive, all wanting to get to medical school and make it killing financially, they were not fun to be classmates with, and I just did not think that that was going to be the thing for me. I knew that there was a very strong prejudice against women in the science in those days, it was hard, it was hard, to see a path forward, and literature was so much fun, and I did not think that far in advance. I do not think I planned that much in those days. I think that is the disadvantage of starting college at 16. You know, you were still a high school kid. IG: 19:57 Yes. GG: 19:58 Basically, you do not really have, uh, the social sense, or the drive. IG: 20:02 Right. GG: 20:03 That is someone who's been out more. GG: 20:05 The only drive I knew was that I had to finish college because my parents would be mortally just so opposed to my dropping out of college. And I never thought about it. I really liked college material, and I actually used to like studying for finals, because it kind of was a way to kind of pull together a whole body of information. And I am someone who- IG: 20:05 Of course. IG: 20:30 In literature you like, or any subject? GG: 20:33 Any subject, yeah, I just found that I am not good at the little details. I am really good at putting together patterns. And somehow patterns fell into place studying for a final. So, I had this overview that I always felt gave me more understanding, at least the best that I could at that point, I was not the most dedicated student also going to laugh at that. And so, you know, if I could get away with not working that hard, I certainly would. And I spent a lot of time off campus because I found Binghamton very boring. So, I have spent a lot of time up in Ithaca. IG: 21:13 Yeah. So, you had a car, or somebody- GG: 21:16 I had a friend who had a car, yeah, and the two of us would just go roaming. We had a great time, and I do not know. So eventually I did become a literature major, be more, because I just did not know what I was going to do. And in those days, you could graduate from college, and that was sufficient to get a job, PG: 21:36 A good job. IG: 21:38 A good job. Yeah. GG: 21:40 And so, but so that is basically what I did. And I would say those two professors were very influential on me. Of all professors I had, first of all, because I still remember their names, that means something. And they just all took a personal interest in me, and that I thought was, I did not know if that was a feature of college in general, or just maybe that is an aspect of being a relatively small school as it was at that time, but I appreciated that because you did not feel anonymous at all. IG: 22:19 Did they invite you to their homes? Did you have any extra [crosstalk] curricular activities with them? Did they have dinners or? GG: 22:29 Actually, there was a third professor that, I think back on it. He was, I think he had invited me to his house. I remember he had these fancy pigeons in the cage in his kitchen. They were really quite spectacular, and his wife was wonderful. Dr. Landry, I think he gave me a ride somewhere. I mean, they were nice people- IG: 22:52 Nice people. GG: 22:55 But it was not like I felt like I socialized with them. IG: 22:58 Right. Were there any stars that you remember in the English Department? GG: 23:03 Well, I think Kroetsch was. He left the university around the time I was graduating, or he was on leave. I do not know if he actually came back or not. He was Canadian. I think he eventually went up to Canada again. IG: 23:21 Did you take part- I am just curious, what-what, so what-what path did your career take? GG: 23:28 Oh, that is the interesting part. I kept circling back to science, no matter how I turned. That is what I wound up in. So, what is the job I get when I finish college? I interview to be a secretary. Because remember, in those days, they used to have two lines at employment offices, the men went the executive route and the women went the secretarial so I being ignorant. I just did what they said. And during my interview, woman said, "You are not going to be happy being a secretary," and I wound up in the in designing circuit boards at a small engineering company in Boston. IG: 24:15 How did that happen? From secretarial to was it your science degree? [crosstalk] How did you decide circuit boards? GG: 24:22 I did not. IG: 24:22 I could not. GG: 24:22 I did not. She just decided, for me, she knew that. I guess she must have been aware of what jobs were open, and I did not have, you did not have to be an engineer. IG: 24:33 Right. GG: 24:33 You just have to understand components and tolerances, and they can teach you that. And the engineers were in offices down the hallway. But what I did was it was like a puzzle. I mean, it is like they paid me to do puzzles. It was so much fun. IG: 24:46 And what was the what was the time and company, and? GG: 24:50 Oh, do you remember the name of the company? PG: 24:53 Yeah, [inaudible] GG: 24:54 Is it? GG: 24:55 Yeah, I think they made equipment for testing, for quality control. PG: 24:59 Yeah-yeah, I cannot think of [crosstalk] GG: 25:01 [crosstalk] anything right now. I only worked there for a few months, and then my father was- who had been ill most of my life, was really ill, and my mom wanted me to move back home, which I did, so then I came home and helped her run the family business after my dad passed away. PG: 25:22 You know, one thing I have been mentioning thinking about since we talked before about, and Gail mentioned being young. This was a major thing, because, you know, almost all of the students from New York City, which might have been half of the student body, were young, and so it really, I think it limited how much they got out of college. It limited the kind of activities they sought out, maybe even limited them intellectually, like when I think of it, my fourth semester, all of a sudden, I started doing--I was doing okay, but I started doing very well, and that continued throughout, probably just a matter of maturity. IG: 26:09 It was a matter of maturity, did you say? PG: 26:11 Yeah, probably a matter of just maturity. IG: 26:13 Yeah, that is that is an interesting observation. I have also thought that in my life as well, that at a certain point you either read- reach a critical mass. But it does have to do with maturity and yet, and yet, you know you were. I mean, there are prodigies at a young age, and you already had a sense of the direction that you wanted to take in math, and then you switched to economics, so you had the intellectual wherewithal to pursue that too. PG: 26:51 Well, there are different interpretations. You could say, well, maybe if he was more maturing- IG: 26:55 Yeah, he would do more. PG: 26:56 -would have handled math differently. IG: 26:59 So-so do you think that the, you know, well, I mean- PG: 27:03 I do not think that was the case. I do not think, looking back, that was actually the case. IG: 27:07 Yeah. PG: 27:08 They were just saying that there are possibilities of students who went different directions, perhaps because they were quite young, IG: 27:16 Yeah. PG: 27:17 That might have, might not have been the best for them. IG: 27:20 Right. So- GG: 27:23 I think, I think there are always aspects, [inaudible] in an environment that influences you. Just as I was saying that I did not know how I could have a path forward for science job in just pure chemistry, say, I think that is a reality at that time, it would have been very difficult, and so that had nothing to do with my age, but there is all these other external factors that one processes as you go through. PG: 27:53 but I actually think that my young age, unlike you, my young age, made me quite satisfied with campus life in a way that you were not. IG: 28:03 So, what did you do? I mean, campus life, how was it, how was it fun? PG: 28:09 Well, in a sense, it was, first of all, I was not home. IG: 28:11 Yes. PG: 28:13 I had all these friends, you know, right nearby. You know, could get together with them, quickly, or, you know, without spending a lot of time traveling. I mentioned before there were all these events going on that were, and many of these events were, you know, very important to me. You know, being exposed to foreign movies, being exposed to jazz performers and quartets. There was a quartet [crosstalk] quartet. IG: 28:47 And what do you remember, any of the musicians, any of the- PG: 28:53 Oh, some of the jazz musicians. IG: 28:54 Where did they perform? At the student union or there was an auditorium. PG: 28:58 There was an auditorium, there was an auditorium, and then in some cases it was the gym, which is somewhat bigger, but the most of it in the auditorium. You know, as well as student productions and so you know, between the people, and you know, people were in social clubs, which was, you know, really, just for parties- GG: 29:30 And for men. PG: 29:32 Well, there was some women's clubs, were not there-- much less probably. IG: 29:36 What were the clubs that you were in? PG: 29:38 I was in [inaudible]. IG: 29:39 What is that? PG: 29:41 It is just a Greek name. [laughter] GG: 29:44 [crosstalk] national fraternities. PG: 29:47 No-no, they were not. They were, they were all specific to Harpur and really just another social you know, to some extent, like fraternities, but people I-I remember, actually, you know, we got together for parties, but also just sometimes, just the older people would, you know, take the group out to a bar and, you know, just to drink beer on a Friday night. IG: 30:22 Well, that is, I mean, that is fun, especially when you are, you know- PG: 30:27 When you were 16- IG: 30:28 -when you were 16 is, you know, it was an entry into adulthood. PG: 30:32 That is right. IG: 30:33 Would you, would you imagine adulthood to be. So-so, you know, so you were having fun and socializing and participating in clubs, but it was also the time of Vietnam. PG: 30:49 No. IG: 30:50 It was before Vietnam, because- PG: 30:52 I was there, before Vietnam [crosstalk] IG: 30:54 Before it affected your-your- PG: 30:56 Yeah, Vietnam was not very prominent. IG: 30:59 It was not very so, so there was not a fear of the draft, or- PG: 31:03 I mean, there was not, I mean, definitely. Well, I remember, actually, not that far, long before I graduated, because of Vietnam getting started, there was a change in draft policy. IG: 31:14 How did it change? PG: 31:16 It used to be that, you know, I think they started maybe exempting fathers, and that meant they were drafting more of other people. You know, I do not remember the details now, but the bottom line was that I was, oh, I know what it was, is that they were not drafting men until they were 23, 24 and there was a policy to exempt fathers. And by exempting fathers, the draft age for the non-fathers fell. So, in a sense, it would be, and it fallen down to 20 or 21 perhaps. So, it meant that. So, it was not like there was all this anti-war, although I think the war was becoming unpopular then, and there probably were some activities in my last year, but it was just a matter of, oh, I am going to be drafted. I do not want that. IG: 32:12 So, I mean, for you, it is kind of a moot point, because you were determined to go on to your graduate- PG: 32:22 No. IG: 32:22 -studies anyway. PG: 32:23 No. IG: 32:23 No. PG: 32:24 No, I would not have gone to graduate school. IG: 32:26 You would not have gone. PG: 32:27 No. IG: 32:27 I see. PG: 32:28 Maybe later. IG: 32:29 Maybe later. GG: 32:32 When, in the end, he was so young when he graduated. For graduate school, he was still eligible. IG: 32:39 Right. GG: 32:40 So, he [inaudible] two years. IG: 32:45 So, he- PG: 32:46 Yeah, so I was in had a commission in the Public Health Service to meet my service obligation. IG: 32:53 Oh, and where was that? And what? What nature of service was it? PG: 32:59 Oh, I was used interchangeably with federal civil servants in Rockville, that but as a commission as Lieutenant Commander in the Public Health Service. GG: 33:13 But he had a low enough number in the lottery, he would have been drafted for the army. IG: 33:17 That is terrible. PG: 33:18 Yeah. IG: 33:21 So did the war- I mean, did you come from a liberal or conservative background? Did the war change your thinking in any way about politics, about- PG: 33:35 Yeah, I would call them. I would say came from a moderate democratic background. And the, you know, the war was not popular there with me. But you know, this did not come from an environment that was going to go out and demonstrate an- and that is not me either. IG: 34:04 That is not you either. [laughter] GG: 34:14 As far as the war, my parents were both staunch Republicans. I did not pay any attention to politics, particularly. But it was interesting that as the war progressed, when my father had passed away, so I do not know if he would have evolved in this in this area, but my mom started to become strong anti-war person. So, it was interesting how as a moderate Republican, she moved very strongly against that position over time, because she remembered World War Two, when my father was in the army for three years, fighting in European front. And she thought it was horrible. I mean, she just really hated war and so that so for people who had that World War Two experience, not everyone came through saying, you know, waving the flag all the time, even if they were conservative. So that is that was a deal breaker for her. IG: 35:20 Yeah, it must have affected you to have your mother, to see your mother evolve. GG: 35:27 I thought it was interesting. I, you know, I my mother and I are very independent people, and I do not have any difficulty being with people who have a different opinion, political opinion. I was used to it. There was a range of political views, few points in my extended family, and it was I was comfortable with that. It did not matter to me so much. I thought it was a big deal for her to change, because I thought there was a lot of pressure among conservatives to kind of hold down the fort and keep to the position. So, I thought it just indicated to me that she was independent in how she viewed things. One thing I had not mentioned before when you were asking me about my profession, is that when I circled back for my first job being in science, I also came back to science again later on, when I did go to graduate school with science. IG: 36:35 In science? GG: 36:36 Yeah, I have a master's degree in molecular biology, and I have worked at NIH for many years. I am now retired from it, so I science has won me over in the end. IG: 36:52 And so, so when did you when did you make that decision to go into- GG: 36:58 After our children were starting elementary school, I went back to graduate school. IG: 37:03 I see. GG: 37:04 I went to graduates school. IG: 37:07 Wonderful. PG: 37:07 Tell the story of the course you took at UCLA, GG: 37:11 Oh UCLA, yeah, yeah, yeah, IG: 37:13 UCLA? GG: 37:15 Yeah. We were in- IG: 37:16 Los Angeles. PG: 37:17 Yeah. Actually, I had joined the RAND Corporation, and said volunteer to in Washington, but it volunteered to spend a year in Santa Monica. So, the family did that. And so that is why we were in Los Angeles, and Gail took a course. IG: 37:37 When were you in Los Angeles? PG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. IG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. GG: 37:41 Yeah. And you know, when you are home with two young children, the only thing you keep hearing is the dripping away of all your [inaudible]. So, I was always looking for something that would be sort of an intellectual stimulus. As much as I loved being home with my kids, you just cannot do it 100 percent there is no one normal. And so, I- PG: 38:08 Of course, they were both in school. GG: 38:10 Yeah, and so I was able to take a course. I actually took it at night, so it just did not matter about their school schedule. And it was just eye opening because I began to see the whole field of molecular biology had started up in the interim, and whereas biology before was just constant memorization, classification and structural and physiology stuff, and I did not find that that compelling, which is why I was more attracted to chemistry, because it is a little bit more overview general approaches. But molecular biology was chemistry brought to biology. And so that is so it suddenly opened my eyes. I said I could do this. This is like, IG: 38:56 What, why do you think that the field opened up because of the advent of technology? GG: 39:05 There are tipping points in every field where you get new techniques that come up that suddenly allow people to have insight in areas, they never had access to before. And so, it was the early work of the bacteriologists and they were beginning to understand and manipulate the genes in that simple bacteria and be able to show how it- they created a whole metabolism chart, and the early work of the nutritionist in biochemistry opened up this field. That opened it up in biochemistry, but the biochemists really added, brought this whole dimension and to into biology. And then when you couple that with sequencing and the understanding of DNA, which was not well elucidated. Back when I was in college, you knew that it existed, but there was so much that you did not know that allowed manipulations with it and that just-just broke open the door. IG: 40:15 So-so in your job at the NIH what-what was your focus? What-what did you do? GG: 40:23 Well, I worked for in graduate school, there with a bacteriologist, geneticist, and then after I finished graduate school, I-I had a full-time position, got a full-time position for about, I guess, about seven, eight years, maybe eight years, I was in Alan's lab, and it was a basic science lab. I worked in a small model organism called dictyostelium discoid, and we studied aspects of signal transduction, which is just, how do you how does this organism take surface signals and have create changes inside and- IG: 41:11 Just explain for the audience, why is understanding signaling so important to biochemistry? GG: 41:25 Oh, well, it is very in some ways we never knew. Part of it is playing around and experimenting. But the theory was that if we understood how we could manipulate signals on the surface, which could be anything like a drug can come in and clog up a pathway, but being able to understand the internal workings of the cell, you- they were, it was very reductionist in those days, so they were really trying to, we were really trying to understand how a cell actually works. And we thought with something very simple, you could understand, in this case, how do these cells begin to move from being single cells to aggregating with other single cells and become, and in fact, a whole new organism and the fruiting body and make a complete transformation and this organism. If we could understand this, how this organism works, well, maybe would understand how tumors come together, or other aspects that have relate to human disease or human function. So that is part of that makes sense. IG: 42:42 Fascinating. Yes-yes. PG: 42:44 Irene, just, I just love to talk. I am sorry, watch, and I realized this joint interview is not working for me, because I have to be, you know, on-on a call. IG: 42:54 When? PG: 42:55 4:30. IG: 42:55 Or. okay, all right, so let us focus on you. [crosstalk] Actually, I am- I found it very interesting what you had to say, and I had some exposure to what you were describing. I am sorry. So, Paul, tell us about your work for the just-just the evolution of your career. You worked at the RAND, you worked at you were working currently at the Brookings Institute. So, tell us, tell us, you know the progression this- PG: 43:41 Oh sure. IG: 43:41 Yes. PG: 43:42 Yes. Well, actually, when I had finished, when I was in graduate school, I became very interested in policy. Actually, I got into healthcare in graduate school, an interesting route of finishing coursework, not being ready to start a thesis and working for a consulting firm which sent me to Nova Scotia to help the provincial governments technical assistance. I won't get into what it was for, but that changed my interests and decided I wanted to do something and applied micro economics, and chose health because that was one of the two areas that Harvard was very strong in. So-so anyway, I started pursuing health care as I was preparing to write a dissertation. Got a dissertation topic in healthcare, and then was going to go into policy. Actually, had a job with the New York City governments. Very attractive job, which I thought that would be a. Was suitable for a draft deferral. Turned out not to be. So, I was found by an enterprising person that in the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, it was named then- IG: 45:15 In New York? PG: 45:16 No in Washington, who you know, had realized that he could use commissioned officers in the Public Health Service interchangeably with regular civil servants. And had recruited, when I was there, about 30 men who were there with two-year commissions. IG: 45:41 Right. PG: 45:43 So that is what I did. Basically, I was- it was doing program officer work which I did not particularly care for, which led me to decide, well, you know, you did not think you wanted to become an academic, but if you this would be the time to do it. So, then I went to Michigan State as an assistant professor there. IG: 46:16 What year was that in the- PG: 46:20 That was 1972 and was reasonably happy there, but not that engaged and was recruited by Duke, which seemed like a more exciting place. It was. IG: 46:37 It was. PG: 46:37 But it was not enough. IG: 46:38 It was not enough. PG: 46:40 So, I took a leave from Duke to join the Congressional Budget Office- IG: 46:47 Oh, wow. PG: 46:48 -which was willing to hire me into a permanent job rather than a visitor. IG: 46:53 Right. PG: 46:55 Knowing I was on leave from the University, and I never went back. IG: 47:02 So, the Congressional Budget Office. What was so exciting- I mean, apart from being in the thick of things? PG: 47:09 Being in the thick of things, you know, doing work that you know, congressional committee staff thought that they needed- as and, you know, being in the policy world. IG: 47:27 So, so just feeling that you have a direct impact on the course of politics? PG: 47:34 Policy. IG: 47:35 Policy. PG: 47:36 That is right. IG: 47:37 So, what- so-so just give us, you know, some of the highlights of your career. I mean, what, what policies did you create that came to. came to light, came to materialize, and what, what effect did they have on launching? PG: 48:02 It was probably best to say policies I was involved in developing, and not claim credit for the policies these change in the way Medicare paid hospitals. That was probably the most impactful thing during my CBO days. There were other policies that I had a role in at later jobs. IG: 48:27 In later jobs. PG: 48:30 In later jobs. IG: 48:31 So how long were you at the Congressional Budget Office? PG: 48:34 Six years. IG: 48:35 Six years. That is from 197- PG: 48:39 8 to 1984. IG: 48:43 And then what happened? PG: 48:48 Yes, and then I actually started getting bored there. Joined the RAND Corporation, which is a think tank. IG: 48:58 I know, I know. PG: 48:59 Yeah, you know, started, you know, to doing analysis for the Air Force, but with a significant domestic program, particularly in health care. IG: 49:10 Particularly? PG: 49:10 In health care. IG: 49:11 In health care, where the Air Force? PG: 49:16 Yeah, there was- Rand was actually initiated by the Air Force. IG: 49:24 So- PG: 49:25 In the 1940s. IG: 49:26 In the 1940s. I did not know that. I lived in Los Angeles. I worked for a university. So of course, you know, but I did not know the Air Force origins. So, you were there for a year? PG: 49:42 Well, I was with Rand for two years. You know, one was in Santa Monica and one was in Washington. And then a congressional Commission was created where Congress wanted, uh, set up a commission to come up with a policy to revamp physician payments in the Medicare program, and I was recruited to be executive director of that commission. Easiest job decision ever to do that so-so that is what I did, starting in 1986. IG: 50:33 So revamped physician payment? PG: 50:36 Payments in Medicare. IG: 50:37 So, did this, did this revision benefit physicians or patients? PG: 50:47 Well, hopefully both, but it was, it benefited some physicians at the expense of other physicians. It just changed the structure of payments as to rewarding visits more highly than procedures, whether I doubt it affected patients that much, except very indirectly. And so that was the commission was very successful because Congress enacted legislation based on the commission's proposals in 1989 and which still functions to this day, so does the hospital payment system. IG: 51:45 So, you actually had a hand in creating policies for- PG: 51:51 Yes, for physician payments. IG: 51:54 That is right for hospital. PG: 51:55 I mentioned the hospital before IG: 51:58 Yes. PG: 51:59 That was when I was at CBO, I had a bigger influence on the physician payment because of actually drawing up the proposal. IG: 52:18 So, we have either you to thank or- PG: 52:22 That is right [crosstalk]. That was a role. IG: 52:27 Yeah. PG: 52:28 Then [crosstalk] I was Medicare, yeah, that was all Medicare. But, yeah, but Medicare, what we did, influenced the rest of the payment system immediately, almost. Then I started a think tank at the invitation to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. IG: 52:49 Oh wow. [inaudible] PG: 52:54 The Center for Studying Health System change. IG: 52:57 That is tremendous. So, tell us about this work. PG: 53:09 Yes, well, that actually involved extensive data collection. The vision on the part of the foundation for this was that this was when President Clinton and Hillary Clinton were, you know, developing a proposal to reform the health care system, which today sometimes referred to as Hillary care. And there was concern that the federal government was not adequately prepared to monitor how healthcare was changing under that reform, and it wanted to fund research to augment what the federal government would-would be doing. Now, of course, the reform did not pass, but the Foundation decided to go forward anyway, because it perceived the health care system on its own was changing very quickly. IG: 54:19 Just-just expand on that last point so, um- PG: 54:24 Well, there were new organizations being created, right new types of physician organizations. Hospitals were acquiring other hospitals and insurance products were changing. So, there was, you know, with managed care was becoming very important. So that was the motivation. And this think tank, the center, you know, conducted surveys of households and physicians. And-and but what it was best known for was conducting extensive site visits in 12 representative metropolitan areas involved interviewing leaders, and, you know, different sectors of the healthcare system and-and sectors that interacted with the health care system, like employers. IG: 55:28 So, which-which health care systems did you interview? PG: 55:36 Well, so-so in a typical- IG: 55:37 Several-several. PG: 55:38 -market it would be, you know, maybe two or three hospitals, if there were physician organizations, either multi-specialty groups or what was called an Independent Practice Association, they were interviewed insurance companies--I mean health insurance companies. What else the state Medicaid program advocates for-for health care for the poor. We interviewed local journalists who covered health care. IG: 56:18 The Wall Street Journal or? PG: 56:19 No, local journalists. IG: 56:20 Local journalists. PG: 56:21 You know what, journalists with the local newspaper that were the healthcare specialists. IG: 56:31 So, what were- what was the result of these findings in terms of change in direction of- PG: 56:43 Well, I think people-people understood what was going on in the healthcare system a lot better than they had before. IG: 56:51 Yeah. PG: 56:51 You know, I cannot point to something that they did because they were better informed. Interestingly, there was a lot always interest in those 12 sites, those 12 metropolitan areas, in finding out how they were different from other places around the country. IG: 57:13 So, these findings came to light in which form, you know- PG: 57:19 In numerous- IG: 57:21 I am not familiar with the world of Washington or policy making and so yeah. PG: 57:27 And numerous publications. IG: 57:29 Yes, numerous publications, so- PG: 57:31 Publications and media interviews. Well, I mean many of the publications, some were articles in peer reviewed journals like health affairs or the New England Journal of Medicine. Many were just, you know, issue briefs, research briefs, published on our website. PG: 57:51 And they had a very big list. You had a very big- PG: 57:55 Oh yeah, you know, 10,000 people, you know, received emails when new publications were released. IG: 58:06 So, you know who accessed this- what kind of people accessed this information? PG: 58:13 Well, I would say both people, state, federal policy, worlds, people in industry. IG: 58:20 Right. PG: 58:20 You know, hospital executives, insurance executives, you know, physician groups. They were the audience. We did not write them for the general public. IG: 58:31 Yeah. GG: 58:32 But they were available. PG: 58:33 They were available. Yeah. IG: 58:35 Does it does- are you still continuing this work? PG: 58:39 No-no. The um- well, you know, the- this function for 19 years, which is a very long time for foundation funded activities, and just the funding could not be sustained. And so, I left in the end of 2013. And became a faculty member at the University of Southern California. IG: 59:12 Oh, that is where I worked, the library faculty. Beginning library faculty. PG: 59:17 I see, yeah. So, I was at the public and still am at the public policy school. But living here. IG: 59:26 You were living here so, but you shuttle back and forth. PG: 59:30 Well, not a lot I do, I do some teaching there, some teaching online. IG: 59:34 I see, I see, I see. PG: 59:36 And I am part of a research group. And you know, these days, you do not need to be physically there. IG: 59:41 It is a great school. I was there in the early (19)90s, and it already was acquiring a reputation of becoming the NYU of the West. It was no longer thought of as the university of the spoiled children. [laughter]I could see us, but it has a fantastic music school, fantastic linguistics. I mean, these are [crosstalk] PG: 1:00:11 Yeah, it is very hard to get in these days. IG: 1:00:13 Very-very. PG: 1:00:14 Undergraduates, at least, yeah, so that, so I joined that faculty, and two years ago, the actually a wealthy individual who had actually been instrumental in setting up the Economics and Policy Center I was affiliated with, called the Schaeffer Center for-for Health Policy and Economics. The Mr. Schaefer wanted to create a partnership between the Schaeffer Center at USC and Brookings, and so that is what led me to come to Brookings, to lead that partnership from Brookings. IG: 1:01:14 So, what-what is now the focus of your work? PG: 1:01:18 It is all on analyzing and developing health policies, health policies. So, I have done a number of different things. IG: 1:01:36 Oh yes. I mean, it is a stellar career. PG: 1:01:38 But that is doing different things, rather than contrast to my father and brother, each of whom had one job in their lives- IG: 1:01:46 Yes. PG: 1:01:49 -changes, I get bored with things. IG: 1:01:51 Right. I understand, but you and your wife- PG: 1:01:56 With everything except women. IG: 1:01:59 Let us, let us, let us just talk about this for the few minutes that you ever meet. So how did you meet your wife? PG: 1:02:08 I do not know exactly, but I was a senior. I was a senior, and she was a freshman at-at Harpur, and it was maybe about halfway through that year. GG: 1:02:23 I do not know exactly either. Most people have a certain date. So, we just, we met sometime, I think maybe spring. PG: 1:02:35 Yeah, probably, I mean, probably the spring semester. GG: 1:02:37 Yeah, he graduated, but then he was in Boston, and I was still at Harpur, and it was not quite so easy in those days to stay in touch. You could, if you but we did not know each other that much that deeply at that point, so I guess we did not. We stopped dating at that point. And then when I moved to Boston after college. We met again. PG: 1:03:03 Yes, that is three years later. GG: 1:03:05 Yeah, and then we got married within the year, yeah, six months or something like that. Because, in a sense, I kind of knew him. I just-just when we had moved to Boston, my roommate and I, we just assumed he was married, but we knew he would know the area. We both knew him a little bit, and so I would just ring him up and-and he was not in town, but he when he came back, he contacted me, and we started dating. IG: 1:03:41 And you discovered that he was not married. GG: 1:03:43 Yeah [laughter] That was even better. PG: 1:03:46 And ironically, this is when I had mentioned that not ready to start a thesis, I was working for a consulting firm and was in Nova Scotia. That is when she contacted me, when I was in Nova Scotia, but when I came back IG: 1:04:00 And you were happy that she contacted. PG: 1:04:02 Yes. IG: 1:04:04 What did you think of Gail at the time? What was she like? Was she the same person that she is now? I mean, some essence of her probably. PG: 1:04:13 Oh, of course, yes. IG: 1:04:15 So, was she the same person? How has she changed? Do you think- PG: 1:04:20 No one has ever asked me that. I mean, I am essentially the same person. Yeah, of course, she has changed. IG: 1:04:31 Yes. How about you? What-what-what-what would your classmates say about you from the time of Harpur College? Could they have predicted that you would have the major career that you did? PG: 1:04:47 Well, I was a good student there, at least for the last two plus years and but I do not know what they would have could have predicted. GG: 1:04:58 He is so understated. He was, like number two in the class. He was the top econ student. And Paul would say this, but I can say it. PG: 1:05:12 But in a sense, actually, what maybe-maybe people would be surprised by, and maybe they would not be, because, say, as a top student going to Harvard, they would have thought, oh, he will be a famous professor, and that is not the career I did. GG: 1:05:31 Paul was ahead. It is sort of in the vanguard of academic people who began to do more practical work than applied work. Academics tend to look down in almost irrespective one, well, maybe philosophy, but- IG: 1:05:49 No, I know the syndrome. GG: 1:05:51 Yeah, and Paul was really brave when he did not mention this. But when he left Duke, did not take his two-year leave every single close friend of his in academia said, "Do not do that and do not leave it. Do not leave academia." And when he was thinking of leaving, he had no support from his friends, really. He had a lot of support from his wife, because happy he was, but and then as far as I was concerned, that is all they counted. But the- but I felt that it was kind of a brave step. May not sound so brave looking back now, but at the time, it was a big deal to be someone who had the academic credentials to be a tenured professor at such a young age at Duke. He was really good and-and he just did not like it. He did not thrive in the environment. And he was wise enough, and we were all supportive enough of him to say. IG: 1:06:54 And this was in what just remind me what the years were. GG: 1:06:58 I do not know. you remember. PG: 1:06:59 That was probably 1978. IG: 1:07:00 1978. PG: 1:07:01 Yes, it is actually so I would say that my peers would have expected me to have a successful career. But I think only the ones that perhaps knew me really well might have imagined anything like the course it took. IG: 1:07:21 Well, I mean- PG: 1:07:22 In fact, they would have been very difficult, even for people that certainly I did not know, IG: 1:07:26 You did not know. How could they have. PG: 1:07:28 Yes, how could they have only, I am just saying think there is room for a very wise person. IG: 1:07:33 Yes-yes. There is always room for a very wise observing person. PG: 1:07:38 That is right. Actually, I will have to ask, we are actually, in a month from now, seeing an old friend from Harpur in New York, and we will have to ask him how surprised, how surprised he was. He was my roommate, friend a year or two. IG: 1:07:57 It is 4:30 if you have to do this. PG: 1:08:01 Yeah. I- IG: 1:08:02 I will. I would like to continue a little bit with Gail. PG: 1:08:05 Sure. Okay, I [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:06 If you- absolutely we can go on if you have time. But- PG: 1:08:10 Actually, I could spend another five or 10 minutes. IG: 1:08:13 Okay, all right. Well, yes- IG: 1:08:16 That is great. I have, I have- GG: 1:08:17 My schedule is flexible. IG: 1:08:18 Yeah, mine is too. My daughter is coming at eight, so I am not going to be here until 8. [laughs]. Okay, so more about you know, Gail and did you feel that during the during your time that the expectations for women students were different than they were for you know- so, you know, people had no problem predicting that Paul would have, you know, the stellar career, but did they have the same expectations for women students, although these were exceptional women students. GG: 1:09:01 It is an interesting question. I think that the university, there were many things about Binghamton University that I really did not care for. I found like little provincial and I felt isolated. I did not- I actually would have been more comfortable in a larger university, and I never realized that about myself. That is not Binghamton fault. That was right. That is just something you learn about yourself. But I would say that the academic environment was too theoretical in almost all disciplines, no matter what subject matter you picked, they took the theoretical perspective. You know, people moaned over the fact that the psych department only was experimental psych, no clinical. And I- IG: 1:09:57 The other day, I heard, said that, um, the clinical side was experimenting on mice. PG: 1:10:05 Yeah, well, that is what she means by experimental. Experimental means with my clinical- IG: 1:10:11 Those are the wet labs. Those are the- so I see. GG: 1:10:15 Yeah, and that. And when I started my math, unlike Paul, who had actually a more practical calculus course, I was hit with theoretical calculus from day one and it was like way over my head. Actually, would not have been over my head if I actually applied myself. But- PG: 1:10:33 You know, I was thinking about that my professor for math. It was his textbook that he used in my class. [laughs] GG: 1:10:40 I remember when I met Paul, he said, "Oh, you should use this textbook, because it will explain it so much better." But anyway, I would say that the academic environment was very welcoming, and it did not matter that I was a woman, I felt, I thought I had lots of opportunities within the university environment. After all, I was doing these sketches, there was another person who was also capable of those sketches, but I got to do them, and he was the other one was a fellow. I never felt discriminated against as a woman, and I know I was sensitive to it because of my mom, who was always pointing out inequities, and I went to an all-girls high school, a magnet school in Manhattan. And- IG: 1:11:29 Where did you go? GG: 1:11:30 Hunter College High School. And so, I would say that I was somewhat primed, even though I do not think I am a strident or feminist. I cannot say I have noticed anything. And I would say that I was also very lucky in my career that I have always had male mentors who did not hit on me. They were great people. They were- it was almost like father figures more. It is kind of the way you think it should be- IG: 1:12:03 Yeah. GG: 1:12:04 and I- IG: 1:12:04 Very lucky. GG: 1:12:05 I think I have been. I do not know whether it is I am so-so used to dealing with I had a lot of male cousins; I and I had a lot of male friends growing up, I was kind of a tomboy, and so maybe I just interact with men in a different way. IG: 1:12:22 In a different way. GG: 1:12:22 But whatever it is, I never felt discriminated against. What I did feel is that I thought that there was a lot out there in the world that had sort of institutionalized sexism more- IG: 1:12:39 Such as such as your first job out of college, being secretary. You went on- GG: 1:12:44 I was not sure that my professors could help me break into the chemistry lab, maybe, but I did not think so. And I was right on- PG: 1:12:52 I had this perception of college. I did not expect that the women were going to just get married and stay home. I do not think many of the women in my class got married when they graduated. Most of them got work of some sorts, and that may have been, you know, distinct from, say, a lot of other colleges. GG: 1:13:18 Yeah, a fair number of women, maybe-maybe the women, you know. But I thought there were quite a few in my year that married. After we-we married, not that soon after I finished college, really. PG: 1:13:30 Yeah. Well, three, four years after. GG: 1:13:34 No. IG: 1:13:35 Oh yeah, that is right. GG: 1:13:36 Nine months. PG: 1:13:37 Yeah. IG: 1:13:38 I mean, you were also, especially your generation was going, I mean, you were the same generation, but your graduating class, this was the time of Woodstock, of a lot of the youth culture and the rebellion of the new youth culture. PG: 1:13:57 I should probably go now. Thank you very much, Irene. IG: 1:13:59 Thank you. PG: 1:14:00 Enjoy. GG: 1:14:04 Thank you. One thing I would have to say is one of my biggest support in anything that I have done since I met him was Paul. He never, ever held me back in any way, he was always supportive, so maybe because he thought it would be much worse, leaving me frustrated at home. [laughs] I do not know. He is not self-serving, so it is just, if he would just take over child care. He was not much of a cook, but he could reheat things, and the kids used to call him the king of reheating. But he was always there to support whatever I had to do, whatever I had a class or something to go to, no problem. IG: 1:14:59 So, it maybe you know more a question of you know his particular personality and- GG: 1:15:09 [crosstalk] IG: 1:15:09 and his family background. GG: 1:15:12 His father jumped in and helped out too. IG: 1:15:15 It was less patriarchal. Do you or not at all- do you remember the (19)60s climate of, you know, rebelliousness, of drug, sex and rock and roll, of questioning everything, fighting the man. Did that have any impact? Or were you- GG: 1:15:39 Much more on me- IG: 1:15:40 Yes. GG: 1:15:41 -then Paul, because graduating in (19)68 was already seemed like the height of it. The beginning of the red wave. Certainly, there was much more political activity at that point than I remembered when I first started college. IG: 1:15:57 Yes. GG: 1:15:58 And-and I was not in the forefront of these movements. I never did drugs. I can be ditzy enough without drugs or alcohol. I can do that all on my own. And I have never had a taste for alcohol and-and I really did not like smoke that much so, but I had a lot of friends who were deep into marijuana culture. I am one of these people. I tend to have people friends from all walks of life. Is funny. I still have evangelical friends and I have socialist friends. IG: 1:16:42 Because you were comfortable with these different political uh- GG: 1:16:47 I guess so. I am always interested in what people how they come to these decisions, what drives them. What motivates them. And sometimes they are very nice people, even who do not agree with their political perspective. The Vietnam War was horrible. It started to come home to us more and more. You were a little isolated from it on campus, because in those days, there was like one television in-in each dorm, I think in the lobby area there would be a television, but you did not really get all that news. I did not, I do not think I even got a newspaper when I was in college, so I felt actually more isolated from the world than when I was living at home, where I would see newspapers and read them each day and but still, the news eventually came on campus, and Harpur was, I think, on the early side of these activities, I come from Staten Island, which was, you know, a great draft board. As far as recruiting for the army, a lot of people, a lot of people signed up for service. I know a lot of the names on that wall on the mall. I feel bad the people I went to elementary school with gone for what no purpose. What I think I missed in college was the beginnings of the feminist movement that seemed to my younger cousins kind of bring me into that more. IG: 1:18:25 But did not that beginnings, I mean, did not it kind of start in the very early (19)70s, or? GG: 1:18:32 I think it did. I think that is what I mean. I think so it was after. IG: 1:18:36 Right-right. GG: 1:18:37 And the same with civil rights. I seem to be a little bit more after my college years. So, I became aware of it just more through reading papers and being back into the real world. IG: 1:18:51 Right-right-right. Were there any students of color that you remember? IG: 1:18:57 Oh, yeah. GG: 1:18:58 Yeah. One of my objections to Harpur is I was accustomed to more diverse student body, and Harpur was the first time I was at a place where it seemed like everyone was Jewish, and I had not been, you know, that familiar with that uniform culture. It was interesting. But they- I think the last year, year and a half, there was more of an attempt to increase diversity. And there were a number of students that came on who were of African American descent, mostly as I recall. I do not think Hispanic or Asian. I do not recall seeing, and actually, I became friendly with some of the people in the program. It was pretty tough on them. They really stood out like sore thumbs. It would not have been as- it would have been a lot easier in a place that had more diversity to begin with. And I-I just know I had some friends who dated fellas in that program, and they got a lot of static in those days. This was interesting. The good friend who was started dating an African American who started to come to the university, and she said to me, you know, all these really liberal people who are out, you know, raging against the war and this and that, the other said they are just as racist as anyone else. And I trusted what she was saying. That was her experience. It was the comments she received and because she was dating someone who was different. IG: 1:18:58 Yeah. IG: 1:20:48 yeah, I think she probably was right. GG: 1:20:51 I am sure she was but frankly, you know, my parents were not ecstatic about Paul being Jewish. IG: 1:20:59 Yeah. GG: 1:20:59 So, I have seen it from the other side. But then when they really met Paul, they loved him. So sometimes you just have to get to know people. IG: 1:21:11 I think so. I think it is I agree, I agree. I think it is a question of exposure. And, uh- GG: 1:21:18 Yeah. So Harpur did not really have a diverse environment. Most days it was uni, fairly liberal, which was more than I was, more liberal than I had seen before. So, I found it that part interesting. IG: 1:21:34 Right-right. So, you know, I am just, you know, you said a lot of very interesting things, that you were given a theoretical education. You know, you were given a theoretical- you were given validation, you know, both as a scientist, as a student of literature, as an artist. Do you think you would have had this opportunity, you know, at another school, at a larger school? I mean, it is too theoretical to say, but you know- GG: 1:22:17 Actually, it is not, because I have my graduate school experience too. There is something about me that I the way, I guess I interact with people or whatever, I have never lacked for support or for mentors, and they just come out of the woodwork. And I do not know how it happens, but I am really lucky that way, I, for example, took to cut down my commute to graduate school. Actually, took some courses, biochemistry courses over at NIH, they had that evening program, and my university was willing to accept the credits. And it just turned out, you know, I think it is because I would stop stay after class and ask questions, and I became friendly with the professors of the course, and that is how I got my job at NIH. Go figure you cannot plan on it. IG: 1:23:17 No, you cannot. GG: 1:23:17 You just cannot plan on happening. But that is exactly how my career has always unfolded. I just have these opportunities fall in front of me, and I take them. IG: 1:23:33 Give us another example. GG: 1:23:38 I think, well, when I was a great graduate student. I-I got a first I started by getting an internship. I got a summer I got a summer internship at a really wonderful lab at NIH, directly from my biochemistry class, they had said, you know, this guy is really good, and he could use someone for the summer. So, I went and talked with him and-and then from there, the fellow who was my mentor at that lab, who unfortunately has passed away, Howard. He went. He met my son, who at that time was a budding computer scientist, but he just and mathematician and everything that he has become. And Howard just went to a meeting and said, "You know, I know about this really young kid. He was too young to really take a job, but he would be great for anyone who needs blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And Adam got a summer internship at NIH too. IG: 1:24:59 Right. [crosstalk] but, you know, part of it is being an insider already, and that that sort of exposes you to the opportunities. You know, it is, I mean, if you were coming out, if you were coming cold, into this, it would have been maybe a more difficult proposition, but you were already in the mix. GG: 1:25:22 Yeah, but they were you know- IG: 1:25:24 [crosstalk] of course. GG: 1:25:25 I was in that class. But [crosstalk] who got- IG: 1:25:29 No but it is but you were, you were the one who was chosen. So- GG: 1:25:33 Yeah, so I was, I always felt like I was fortunate that way. IG: 1:25:37 Yeah. GG: 1:25:40 It is another way. Oh, I know, I had a brief interlude before I went into bio, molecular biology. I spent some time, felt a had a degree in audiology, and I worked for a while there, thinking this would be a very easy kind of time work. You know, I could do that handling with the family and blah, blah, blah, and I did not. I had underestimated just how boring it was. So, I became interested in, I became friendly with the neurologists and the rehab center where I worked, and they would invite me to come in, and we would autopsies of some of the patient. Oh, this is very little gross for some people, but for some of the patients where I had helped with the diagnosis, the- they would invite me to come and see what the physical brain looked like. They were dissecting. They were trying to better understand what was the cause of the problem. There is a lot that you cannot do neurologically. IG: 1:26:51 There is what? GG: 1:26:52 A lot that about neuroanatomy and neurology. It is not well understood even today, no less back then. And so, then that led me to take a neuroanatomy course in the medical school, and I got the top grade in the class on the exam. And the professor did not know who I was, so he held back giving the- he was giving out all the papers, and he held mine for last because he wanted to see who I was. IG: 1:27:28 So that is, well, I mean, it is, it is obviously, you know, it is talent, and I think, you know, kind of an open mindedness and GG: 1:27:39 Curiosity, yeah, I am much less disciplined than Paul. Paul is, like, really a good student. I am a good student if I am interested and if I am not interested well [crosstalk] IG: 1:27:53 But it seems that he gets he gets forward very quickly. So, he- GG: 1:27:56 He does. IG: 1:27:57 He tackles a problem, and then he moves on. GG: 1:28:00 Yeah, he gets restless. IG: 1:28:01 Yeah. GG: 1:28:02 The Seven Year Itch, always Yeah. So, I guess I get restless too. But I was really particularly one of the things I used to really like about working at NIH and I switched from the lab into infectious disease program grants work. Um, and again, because a friend of mine, a clinical fellow who worked in the lab where I worked, we just became friendly, and she had moved over to this position, and then she had an opportunity to recruit me. So, I interviewed, and I was accepted for the job the- but so I became started to get into, back into clinical work and but really using my research background to help with understand the science and help people with their grants. And so, some of it was very administrative. Some of it was program development. IG: 1:29:10 I think that is fascinating. The program development aspect, I think would be very interesting. Did you find it? GG: 1:29:16 I did, yeah, I liked it a lot. I actually ran a US Japan program. IG: 1:29:24 A what? GG: 1:29:26 A US Japan program? IG: 1:29:27 A US Japan, I just did not hear so- GG: 1:29:29 Infection in mycobacterial research. So, the diseases of tuberculosis and leprosy, they are bigger public health issues in Asia, and certainly, when the program was started, they were much bigger. These diseases are, you know, are treated by have drug treatments now that kind of help that they help quite a bit, especially with leprosy, TB still [inaudible] problem. But anyway, yeah, there are programs like that that you can run. I had a lot of there are big projects that we conceive of. We put out an announcement things. Group gets funded, and then I have to have oversight over that project. I started to become the specialist in diagnostics for mycobacterial diseases, and that was very interesting, because it tied in my whole background with small business, because it was actually the small business programs where most of the diagnostics applications were coming in from, and we had noticed- IG: 1:30:48 Please explain that. GG: 1:30:50 Well, NIH has set aside has is required by Congress, and much of the federal government is required by Congress to set aside a certain amount of funding. It is actually a percent of your funds that you receive from Congress have to be set aside and used for small business projects to stimulate small businesses to support their work science. So, these are small businesses that are often offshoots of academic work. Someone from a university has built a patent on something they, on the side, develop a small business, have a few students or people work for them. They put in applications through the small business program. And there are, there is a limit to the type of project that you can do in a small setting like that. And it turns out that diagnostics is a very good approach for small business. It is something you can actually make money on. Have a product that you ultimately sell to a big company, and it is very doable. IG: 1:31:59 Such as I remember reading about a battery size sensor that can diagnose a range of diseases from your breath. It is like- GG: 1:32:16 Yeah, breathalyzer. IG: 1:32:17 Breathalyzer. GG: 1:32:18 Yeah, even though the scientist [crosstalk] IG: 1:32:20 Yeah, really who is the scientist? GG: 1:32:22 Michael Phillips is one of the one of these developers, I think he has a compassionate use approval from FDA for his using heart rejection, IG: 1:32:36 Yeah, for multiple purposes, I think. GG: 1:32:40 He was trying for lung cancer, if for TB, it has been a little [inaudible]. I do not know how his work- IG: 1:32:47 That is right. And the idea of these breathalyzers is that they could be easily used by people in under developed countries where there is no not, not as much theories too. That is a theory. But in reality, that does not work well. GG: 1:33:03 In reality, the world is more complex. IG: 1:33:06 Of course. GG: 1:33:07 Yeah. So, you can get a lot of anomalies that your equipment picks up, too, especially if you are in an area where this is disease is common, and everyone has that. So, there is a lot of it floating around in the air. I see you have to be sure you are picking up something that is specific from that person. And you do not know if that, and there are a lot of technical aspects, but in theory, it has a lot of potential. There is potential for blood tests running able to help. It was, it was a perfect program for me, and everyone began to realize that, and they were sending all the people to me, so I became the go to person at our Institute for small business projects in mycobacterial diseases. IG: 1:33:58 That is, that is fantastic. GG: 1:34:00 Yeah. So, I started out as a literature major, but anyway, well, life evolved. IG: 1:34:08 So, are you still in touch with your Binghamton classmates? Any of them? Or do you have any? GG: 1:34:18 I was in touch with three people from school. Unfortunately, two of them have passed away, and the third one I have kind of fallen out with. I do not see her so much. I saw her up till about maybe five, six years ago, something like that, just off and on. But I think the ones that I lost, I think were the ones that I was closest with, really, and that is unfortunate. IG: 1:34:54 So-so, you know, I think that you. We are kind of coming to sort of a natural end, unless you know, so-so-so you know, some of the things that I some of the concluding questions that I ask my interview is, so what-what you know, life lessons you could you impart to current and future students at Binghamton, what are the most important elements for success, for your success, that really have characterized your career GG: 1:35:44 Well, I think starting out, especially if they are young, they should spend some time getting advice on how to tackle college. I think that there is advice given today that was not available at all when we were there. I think it would have helped some people. I am sure I would have benefited from some advice I learned somewhere between college and graduate school. I learned how to really focus and what was really needed in a classroom, academic setting. And so, I just went through those courses, breezed through them. I think that it would have been if I had just a little bit of advice on organizing and how to go about doing things. I think it would have helped me at that age, for sure. I think Paul stabilized me so much that by the time going through graduate school, it was really easy, even though we had two children at home, and I was handling that on top. I think the second thing though is I would really encourage people to reach out to professors and to reach out to the graduate students and try to engage in an intellectual life in college, because you- it is the one place where You can get an intellectual life, you cannot be guaranteed of it once you leave college. You know your next-door neighbors may be gun toting rednecks. They may be a lot of fun at a barbecue. But they are not going to help you on an intellectual life and-and I find that it can be hard at different points in your life. You really want to know what it feels like to use your brain and to think intellectually so that you can come back to it at different points in your life. If you have never experienced it in college, then when do you expect to and I think colleges should that is something. Our son went to Harvard as an undergraduate, and one of their strengths, they have a lot of weaknesses. It was great for him, but it was one of the strengths, is that they make this intellectual home at every dorm. They have an intellectual life that goes on, the graduate students and people who proctors, who are all part of stimulating intellectual life, and-and Harpur had some of that when we were there. We had people in the dorms, and there was a little bit of that stimulation. And they sometimes younger faculty would be in the dining hall, and you would get a chance to talk with them. Maybe I can get to know them really well. I think that is really important. I think that is something that colleges would strive for, and I think that students should expect and try to get out of college, because it-it then helps you come out into the adult world and-and interact with adults. And to have it-it raises your expectations out of life. IG: 1:39:13 Yes, I think very well, very well, very well. put, very well put, you know, and it just gives you, it is so important to have an intellectual life, because it is part of the human experience that not everybody has an opportunity to- GG: 1:39:34 Yeah, and if you are going to college, that is what you should be expecting, not a technical training. IG: 1:39:41 Yeah, I agree. I agree. Any concluding remarks, anything? GG: 1:39:49 That is fine. [laughs] (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ginsburg, Paul ; Ginsburg, Gail ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paul Ginsburg, PhD is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. Gail is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paul and Gail Ginsburg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 99:53 minutes