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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nancy Cain (Television producer)
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PSB show, The 1990s, and the author of the book, Video Days."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven, and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show <em>The 1990s</em> and the author of the book <em>Video Days</em>.</span>
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica</span>
Duration
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154:16
Subject LCSH
Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Nancy Cain
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 12 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM:
Nancy Kane. Nancy Kane. Well, with someone else. The first question I always ask, especially in the last 50 to 60 people I have interviewed, is to tell me about your growing up years, where you grew up, the influence your parents had on you, maybe a little bit about your high school and college years.
NC:
Oh.
SM:
Just kind of the most influential people in your life and what made you who you are.
NC:
Okay. Well, Detroit, Michigan. Just when everything was great in Detroit and the car industry was booming and everybody was rich. I was just thinking back about my childhood, a very happy childhood. My dad was in the advertising business. They were interested in theater and the arts, and I have a younger sister, and we were both interested in those things too. Went to Mumford High School. I went to the University of Arizona for two years. Then I came back to Detroit and did a year at Wayne State University. And then I left college and got a job in a resident professional theater. And I worked for about three years of full-time doing theater in Detroit. And I moved to New York and also worked in the theater. And I ultimately got a job working for a producer at CBS Network, which is where I discovered video and where I was completely radicalized. And my whole life really changed because of that.
SM:
What year was that when you were working there?
NC:
1969.
SM:
Oh, that is a big year.
NC:
Yeah, it was that was summer. I started working at CBS during that summer of the Woodstock Festival. Let me see what else was happening at that summer. The meth one? The meth one.
SM:
I think there is also, that year is when the women protested at Atlantic City.
NC:
That is true. Right? They burned the proverbial bra. But yeah, women's lib was just starting.
SM:
Yeah, you went to Wayne State University, and I think that is where Charlene Hunter Gaunt went too in her early years. She graduated from Wayne State. She was on the Larry Report for many years, and she was from the south, but she went to Wayne State and graduated from there. When you were there, were there any teachers or family members or peers up to 1969, maybe even someone at the TV station you worked at that really inspired you, that helped you go the direction that you went?
NC:
Well, I knew quite a lot about television and television production because my dad was in the advertising business. When television first started in the late forties, he told his clients, "Look, this is where you are going to put your ad. Everybody is getting a television set, and this is what we are going to do." And they said, "Well, that is great, but there are not any programs to advertise on." So, my dad started producing quite a lot of television programs for his advertisers, and they spent a lot of time at TV station, and I watched the directors and the people who did all the jobs. But I think mostly that it was my family and what my family liked I liked. But when I got to New York, I think the big change that was happening at that particular time when I was at CBS, change was that there were only three TV stations. There were three television networks there. Everything was centralized, and there was no concept of people having their own communication decentralizing the television. So, in that summer of 1969, while we were trying to put together some kind of a new kind of documentary form for the network that I met people called the Video Freaks.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
Had just come back from the Woodstock Festival, and they were the first people I had ever known to have portable video recording equipment. There just was no such thing there. It was not even any tape until the end of the (19)50s. It was live television. That was, if they wanted to save it, they would make a kinescope, which means that they would film the TV screen and save it. And that is what they had. So, when video was invented, that kind of changed the whole landscape. And they came back, and I, at the time was interviewing a lot of people who had thoughts about changing television, what could be new in television. And they came back and they showed me pictures, video from the Woodstock Festival, which is the exact opposite of anything that I had ever seen before. The reverse angle of everything. In other words, I had seen some clips of famous rock and rollers up on the stage, and I saw that it had been raining and that there were like a hundred thousand people there. And it was phenomenal. The video freaks came to my office and showed me, they showed me video of miles, long lines waiting for the porta-potties.
SM:
Hmm.
NC:
They showed me people just totally stoned, tripping out acid. Fabulous. Not the show, but the actual event. So that is the first video that I ever saw. And we hired them immediately, and I spent then both rest of that summer traveling with the video freak trying to document what was going on in the counterculture in the United States.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
We traveled all over, and that is when I saw that that video was going to make it possible for all people to be able to communicate. You did not have to wait and see what the TV station sent you to make your own media and send it to the people that you wanted to send it to. It was really very primitive at that time. But if you look at the progression, it was the invention of videotape, cable television, the internet, YouTube, and it is now totally democratized media so that anyone can say anything and put it out to millions, gazillions of people in one click all over the planet. And that is what I had in mind, even though there was not the technology to do it.
SM:
Who were these people? How many of them were there? Was- it was just a small group that went to which...
NC:
The video freaks at the time that I met him, they were three people. David Court, who was a kind of media artist in New York City who had been working at the Brooklyn Children's Museum. He had a port attack. He went to the festival with his girlfriend, who was a painter at the time, Curtis Radcliffe. They lived down on the Lower East Side. They went out to the Woodstock Festival with their camera, and they met Perry Peace dale. He was 20 years old. He had a Panasonic camera with no viewfinder in it. And they met up and they were probably the only people there that had video cameras. And they set up a booth out there and started. People had never seen them, so they set up a little booth where people could, they would turn on a video camera and people would see themselves on video on the screen when they were just standing there. And how people say, "Wow, is that me?" They would look at it and be all excited. So, they did that. So, there were the three of them. By the end of the project at CBS, there were 10 of us very majorly fired after we did our proposal.
SM:
Did you become the leader of the group?
NC:
There was a... No, because leaders, that was not happening.
SM:
Oh, that was like, yes...
NC:
Very great for women at that time, because mostly up until that point, men had the thing, men had the jobs, men would hire the women, men would tell the women what to do, but no more. And suddenly there was equality. And by the end of the project, there were 10 of us, and we were all fired. They were all people that were working on the CBS project. And we all left CBS simultaneously after our pre-presentation to the network.
SM:
How long did Video Freaks last?
NC:
Video Freaks is still existing. We finally after, what, 30 years? I am not exactly sure, but about three or five years ago, we actually made a partnership agreement and are now kind of watching over these several thousand videotape that were shot, although we worked together and live together because for financial reasons, not because we were in love or anything. We had some equipment and we needed to share it.
SM:
Right.
NC:
So, we had a loft down in SoHo, New York, and that was too expensive. And so, in the summer of 1970, we rented a house in the Catskill Mountains, a big old farmhouse, and we turned that into a media center.
SM:
Oh, wow.
NC:
We were there for about nine years. And we were open to video artists and producers from all over who could come and edit video and work on, and then we...
SM:
Are a lot of your videos on YouTube.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Yeah. Is YouTube a direct descendant of video Freaks?
NC:
I say yes, even though, because the concept, we had the concept, we spent several years traveling around, teaching people how to run this equipment. So, we got grants from the New York State Council on the Art and from the National Endowment and other such. And we started a not-for-profit called Media Bus. And we would traveled mostly over the state of New York. We traveled all the whole throughway system, and we went to libraries and museums and cultural places, and YMCA and any place where people gathered. And we would have workshops and we would show people how to work this equipment and how to take control of their own media. And we would go out on the streets and we would record people, actual real life, interviewing people, asking William, "What is happening in this community? What are you doing with this and that?" And then they'd say, "Okay, now we have these videotapes. What do with them?" And that was just the beginning of cable television. So, the cable companies were wiring up cabling, all the whole state, all these small towns now would sign contracts with cable company. And in their contracts with these cable companies, there was something called access, community access, public access. And what that meant was, "Hey, you big rich media conglomerate, we are letting you cable up our whole town. And so, what we expect is for you to give us a channel on your big cable system so that we can communicate in our own community with each other." But the cable companies, they did not like that. And we were kind of outside agitators. And we would keep to all these people and community people and young people and the Boy Scouts and everybody. We would walk them over there to the cable company, take our little meeting with the cable company and say, "Okay, we want to do it. We are ready to go and have our own C station." And they had to do it.
SM:
See, that is an unbelievable (19)60s 70 thing, because you are really challenging the establishment there, number one. Number two, you were truly living what, as Tom Hayden used to always say when he came to our campus, the difference between power and empowerment. You were empowered.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Because you were in control.
NC:
Yes, sort of except that we were not making any money and we were not telling anybody how to make any money either. So that was like...
SM:
I went into the, obviously the computer and I on the YouTube, and I found a couple of your things on there, and you probably know, you have probably seen them. One was that short film you did on that woman who was leaving.
NC:
Harriet.
SM:
Harriet, yeah. The first time I saw it, well, the first time, I did not know why she was laughing all the time. Why was she laughing all the time?
NC:
Well, you know what? I do not know. She was hysterical. You can hardly see that the image on that tape.
SM:
Right.
NC:
You barely see it anymore. But what it was is we lived in a small town called Lanesville. That is where our big farmhouse was. And there were maybe 300 people in that town altogether. So, we had put together, because there was no cable in Lanesville, we decided to make a broadcast television station. We had before we left the city, Abby Hoffman had given us a TV, a television transmitter, because he had wanted us to make something for him because he wanted to do pirate television. Abby was doing a book called, I do not know if it was Steal this book, or one before that, where he was trying to empower people in all areas. He wanted to do, was have some kind of a pirate television station that would be run out of a bus or a truck or someplace that could move around. He wanted it. He wanted it to cut into the networks and put on this people's television. So, he came over with that idea, and Perry and Chuck, our technical guy, tried to figure out how to make that happen. And he came over to our loft and they showed him that they were able to figure out how to actually broadcast from one room to the next room. And so, we would not have to pound on the wall or shout it. He could actually broadcast to the next room. But he was very disappointed in that because he was thinking the city or the five boroughs, at least. Come on kids, let us get together. And that seemed to be a little bit more that we can handle technically. So, he left, but he left the transmitter, which he had paid for 300 and something dollars. So, when we moved to the country, we took this transmitter with us. And what do you know, it worked with a little bit more copper wire and a little bit of mass. We figured out how to broadcast from the roof of our house to all these little houses in Lanesville. And so, we would put on Wednesdays and on Saturday night, we would put on Lanesville TV, probably America's smallest TV station. And that way we got to know everyone in town because it was the only station that came in because it was stuck in the mountains. It was in a very high mountains on both sides and very, very, a narrow roadway that went down there. So, everybody in Lanesville watched Lanesville TV. So, I would walk down the road to the post office, I would pass by this little trailer that was sitting next to the post office. And Harriet one day who lived down there in that little trailer, she called up to me, she said, "Hey, you want to see my baby?" And I said, "Yeah, I definitely want to see your baby." And I am always curious about going into people's houses. I always wonder what it is like. And so, I rushed right down in there, and she lived in this add-on trailer with her husband and five children. And right down there was just really intense. And she showed me her little baby Toddy, and she invited me in there, and I spent a lot of time in there talking, and she was reading the paper, the New York Daily News. And anyway, we got to be friends. And so, I asked her if I can make a videotape about her life. She said, "Sure." I said, "What I will do is I will just bring the camera down, we will leave the camera running, and we will see what you do all day. And then we will come back and we will edit it. We will see what the story is." So I would go down there and I would spend the time with her, and she'd be cleaning the house and doing the wash and hanging the wash. And then Bobby, her husband would come home with his father and all the Benjamin people. She would make hot dogs for them and they had lunch. And then the teenagers would come, mom, I this. I do not want to do that. And it was just like a whiny stuff and just typical family stuff. And it was going on. And one day I just asked her, I said, "Harriet, do you ever think of just, how can you stand it? Do not you ever feel like taking off?" And she said, "Well, that sounds like a good idea. Let us do that." I said, "Okay, we will do that." And the camera was running, camera one running. She grabs her suitcase. She starts putting everything that she owns into this suitcase. She walks out into the yard, opens up the door, puts her stuff in the trunk of the car. It was not a trunk, I think it was a station wagon, so it was back. Slams down the hood, jumps into the car. I jumped into the car with her, especially, she pulls out of the driveway and starts singing, "Roll Out the Barrel", and starts driving and we are driving and driving and driving and driving. I am thinking, what is happening? Is this an act? Is it real? Is this life? Is it what she wants? Anyway, it turned out that, of course, she went back home for her family and did all that. And I came home with this footage. And so, when I was cutting the tape, I went with it. And at a certain point, I had her leaving. And the further that we drove, the more hysterical she became. She just was so pleased with herself. And I think the answer to your question, why was she laughing? Was that she empowered herself. She saw that she could do it.
SM:
That is a very important message within the era too.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. One of the other videos, and again, I did not look at all of them, but there was that very short 32nd one with Abby Hoffman. I think Paul was to the right of Abby. And when he was talking about Jay Edgar Hoover, is that...
NC:
I do not know that tape.
SM:
That is a video freaks tape too. And it was very short and sweet. It was really good.
NC:
30 seconds of Abby, where did you go?
SM:
Oh, you just go on the computer and you put your name in there under YouTube.
NC:
Oh, you went...
SM:
Yeah, you got to go YouTube and then YouTube, you will come up with the tape of that we just described, and then you will see a little snippet. Some of the things are not yours, but this one looks like it is a Video Freaks. And it was very good telling about J Edgar Hoover, a 70-year-old man who would never had sex. And I mean...
NC:
[inaudible]
SM:
Abby is unbelievable. Anyways, what were some of the events that Video Freaks covered in those times? I know they covered Woodstock with those films.
NC:
As it started out, it started out with Woodstock. All right. So then during that summer it was the... Oh, that is what you may have been talking about. It was the trial of the Chicago eight.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
And that was the first place that I was assigned by my boss at CBS, go with the Video Freak and cover that trial. And David Court had gone to Brandeis University with Abby, and that was our connection. They were friends. So, we drove out to Chicago, and I went with Perry, and David, and Curtis, the first three original Video Freaks. And we made that connection with Abby, and he had just been released from jail, although the trial was still on. We met them at some kind of basement coffee house. And there was a long, long interview with David Court shooting it in. Carrie holding the microphone. Oh no, I think it was Terry shooting and David holding the microphone. And there might have been a little clip from that of Abby speaking most out outrageously. And so, we were on the streets with that. The streets were just filled with people, and they were not only, there was huge protests going on it. So, it was not only protesting about the trial, it was protesting about everything that was going on. And the war, basically women's right. Basically, women's rights, everything. So that was the second major thing. And I really had no experience with the counterculture at all until I went on that shoot.
SM:
Were you allowed to go inside the trial or did you have to wait outside?
NC:
Oh, no, there were no cameras allowed inside there at all. Too bad. But a lot of people have recreated those events.
SM:
Were you able to sit there though, or just watch or-
NC:
No.
SM:
Okay.
NC:
No, but we spent a lot of time with them and also met the Black Panther Party at that time, and we did a long interview with Fred Hampton.
SM:
Oh, wow.
NC:
And he was killed by the Chicago police three weeks, maybe three or four weeks after we interviewed him. I was so strange. We went up to this place and there is all these Black Panthers who were at a beautiful town home owned by a supporter of theirs in Old Town Chicago. And we go up there bloated with people and they are saying, they are talking and they are laughing. They are like, "Oh, oh, off the pigs." And all this stuff. And I did not know what they were talking about. And I would say, "Well, what does that mean?" And I said, "Well, I am not from Chicago, so I do not know." I got a lot of big laughs. I did not really realize what it was.
SM:
Were the other Black Panthers there, like Stokely Carmichael?
NC:
Oh-no, no, not Stokely. Well, people that-
SM:
Cleavers?
NC:
I do not know the names of the, but we did a long interview with Fred, who was at that time.
SM:
What was the gist of that interview? What was he saying?
NC:
I am going to look up on a page and see if I can find something that I quote you.
SM:
Because I know there is a video of him on the streets, but I do not think that is a Videofreex-
NC:
But there is a Videofreex, and I think it is on, might be on, if you go to YouTube and go to Videofreex, the page Videofreex that has a bunch of stuff on it. And I think that it has pretty much a lot of the Fred Hampton interview. Let me see here.
SM:
One of the things when I was looking also at your experiences with CamNet later on, these are quotes that I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that go directly back to Videofreex. And these are quotes from you. "What we are after is emotional resonance. People are allowed to talk more than just a sentence or two. It is a window into the real dirty, unvarnished, unedited world. Just tell the story by telling us." And that was CamNet, but was not that Videofreex too?
NC:
Well, that was it. CamNet was, that is still my email address. So CamNet happened, well, let us see, after the Videofreex after Lanesville TV, some of us moved to Woodstock, New York. We did. And we started doing cable television access in Woodstock, New York, which was loaded with a lot of artists. And we got into a lot of trouble there with access and letting people say what they wanted to. And that was a lot of fun. And then I moved to Venice Beach, California. And well, by the time I got to California, I had with many of my friends and colleagues, put together a program called The (19)90s, which played on public television for seasons. And after The (19)90s, it was over, that played from 1989 to like (19)92. And after that, Judith Bender and I put together CamNet, which was the Camcorder Network. And somehow it was through a series of events it got cable access in, I think eight large cities, 24 hours a day. So, we are on the air 24 hours a day playing these videos that our correspondence would send us from all over the country. And that got a lot of press. And we got on the media food chain that the Wall Street Journal picked up on it. Wall Street Journal did a piece, and they actually made a little drawing of us, the whole thing, and put it on the front page of the marketplace. So, then the LA Times picked up on it and TV Guide picked up on it, and just one thing after another. And it got very big, but we could not raise enough money to keep it going, and it eventually folded.
SM:
Well, I have some questions here that are going back and forward between Videofreex and CamNet, so bear with me here. I am going to get back to Videofreex just briefly. In terms of you personally, no one else but you, what did this experience with Videofreex teach you about the young people of that period of (19)69 and (19)70, of the Boomer generation? And secondly, what did it teach you about our nation as a whole?
NC:
Oh, well, it certainly opened my eyes to the politic. I had never been really that political, but I think it was that, it was the opening, the freeing of the media and the ending the war. Those seemed to be the things that changed everything for me. And I never went back.
SM:
That Fred Hampton experience and videotaping him, or again, the tape I remember seeing is that he was a powerful speaker and that he seemed to be very well educated when he got on that stage in Chicago, wherever-
NC:
But he was like 22 years old or something.
SM:
Yeah. He so seemed to be, why was he such a threat to the establishment?
NC:
Well, let me see how I say... Why was he such a threat? Well, the Black Panther Party was a threat because they wanted their rights and they were powerful. And yes, they were definitely a threat. Let me just look, I am just looking through my notes here just to look back to see what kind of quotes I have from him here. Yeah. Fred Hampton. Fred Hampton, here is what I wrote about it. "Fred Hampton stood out among the Panthers as a thoughtful, soft-spoken leader. Perry asked him the first question, "You and the people around you always seem to be in danger. You could be killed as you walk out of here. If you are killed, will the breakfast program go on a day-to-day level?" And Fred Hampton answered, "Last year, we started a free Breakfast for Children program, and this year we gave it to the people, and they're running the program already. Our whole program is geared toward educating the masses of people. And say that Free health Clinic we have, the people in the community are going to run that clinic. And after a while, we are going to give them that clinic and we are going to move on to higher levels because we understand the difference between the vanguard and the people. We are not worried about them killing anybody. I think that you know they jailed Huey P. Newton, and they ran Eldridge Cleaver out of the country, and they jailed Bobby Seale. And we have got David Hilliard up there now who is very capable, most capable of running the Black Panther Party. So, they can just take all of them they want to, and we will have someone to fulfill that position because that is the type of organization the Black Panther Party is. We do not produce buffoons. We produce leaders. And anybody in the Black Panther Party and any type of cadre is becoming a leader. Our Deputy Minister of Health in the State of Illinois can run the Black Panther Party. And so, can anybody in this cadre. So, all that they are involved with is an excursion in futility. Because anybody that tries to deal with wiping out the leadership of the Black Panther Party is dealing with a time waste. A futile effort to seize some type of power that can never be seized, because a type of unending flow of this power. Every time somebody moves, we are just producing more and more people. The story goes, they wiped out Martin Luther King, and they wiped out Malcolm X, you know what I mean? And they wiped out all these people, and these people were produced. So, I think that in the near future, you will see programs initiated by the government. They will probably have the CIA protecting people like us, because when they wiped out Huey P. Newton and Eldridge Cleaver popped up, I know very well they would be saying, "I wish to hell we would have kept Huey P. Newton on the scene because this motherfucker is out of his mind." There was righteous laughter and nods of, "Right on, right on, right on."" And that was the beginning of our interview with them.
SM:
Wow. Can I use that in my-
NC:
Absolutely.
SM:
Yeah. This is important because when you are looking at the period that we are talking about, I think I even talked about this with Paul, that one of the challenges in this period was the Black Panther challenging these established African American leaders, which was the Dr. King's and the Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins. And even the Julian Bonds and the John Lewis's. This was Robert Moses, the guy from SNCC, I think left SNCC because he felt it was becoming too radical in some respects. So, did you sense that when you saw the Fred Hamptons, the Black Panthers? Did you even think about the people like I just mentioned here, the civil rights leaders that went through so much in the (19)50s and the (19)60s?
NC:
Well, because they could not have been a Black Panther party without that, I feel. That was the next step that it had to be. And they could not wait any longer. They just could not. They had to go.
SM:
Do you feel, it is something that I have felt for a long time, that when someone asked Martin Luther King what he thought of Thurgood Marshall, he had tremendous respect for Thurgood Marshall. But he felt that the Brown versus Board of Education decision and all the things that he had been involved in were two gradual. That was the gradual approach to civil rights. So, he wanted it now, Dr. King. So, the next phase you think was the Black Panthers, or even-
NC:
What it looks like, does not it?
SM:
Yeah. Then no more of this gradualness. The other thing is, what did you think of the Yippies? Because I know, I have talked to several people, Paul and many others now. I have a tremendous... I have always liked Abbie Hoffman, so-
NC:
He is great.
SM:
I have always respected Abbie. I have had my differences opinion about Jerry Rubin, but Abbie was kind of unique. But when you think overall about the Yippies, you were around them in Chicago. You saw Abbie, you saw Jerry. And then you were around people like Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Dave Gallinger, Lee Weiner, and even their lawyers, Leonard Weinglass, and William Kunstler. And Bobby Seale obviously was there. Just your thoughts on being around them.
NC:
Right. Well, was in intense and it was heavy. I know that the Yippies are kind of famous for being like comics. They made it exciting. They made it funny. They made it like a party. They made it good time. At least that is what it seemed like. And they brought a lot of kids to Chicago, so that when we went there, we were involved with the defense, the group. This one, I am looking down here to see if I can find. Okay. "Abbie invited us to the Conspiracy Defense office, Chicago seven. Dave Dellinger, renowned pacifist, activist for nonviolent socials change, the oldest of the defendants," I am just reading down my notes here," "was there, along with William Kunstler, fiery defense attorney, Abbie Hoffman of the Yippies, and Tom Hayden of the SDS." Okay. So, we were there at the place and we were taping and we were taping. We have been taping for an hour, and nobody said anything to us about the camera, the microphone. Finally, Tom Hayden, who ultimately turned to us and said, "Who are you with?" And David said, "Well, it is partly an underground thing, but we are also showing the footage to CBS." That is all Hayden had to hear. And he refused to let us leave the office with the footage. After a long, long, long debate, David erased the major sections of the video while Hayden, who did not trust CBS, looked on. And after the meeting, I called Don, my boss in New York, and I told him, "We have run into a little glitch here, and I was wondering if you could tell me, if just let us say, if the FBI calls you and asks to see the footage that we were shooting, would you show it to them?" Oops, just lost my page. I do not even know what page I was on. All right. Bear with me here a moment.
SM:
Okay. Yeah. While you are looking for that, I just want to say that some of the people that I have interviewed just are very flippant about you. They said, "Oh, they are just a theater group and they did not mean nothing." And so, it was very important in this project that I get substance from as many people as possible. But yeah, there was a lot of theater involved, but-
NC:
Yeah, but that is what brought them, that is what brought them.
SM:
There was also-
NC:
That brought kids.
SM:
Also, Abbie I thought was very serious. And actually, I find out he was well liked by just about everybody including his enemies.
NC:
Yeah. Here is some more Abbie stuff and you are going to have a hell of a job editing this. Sorry about this.
SM:
It is okay.
NC:
But just going around and around, talking to Abbie. He, in the beginning-
SM:
Let me turn my tape here. Hold on one second.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
All right, I am back.
NC:
Okay. All right. So, there we are down in the basement coffee house with Abbie, who is David Gold's friend from college. And David asked them, "So you have done TV interviews before? And no, you have not? This is your first?" Said David, getting a big laugh from the group. "Is there anything you would like to say?" Abbie says, "Fuck." And then there is a big laugh.
SM:
That is my cell phone. Bear with me. I do not know why... Do not worry. Go ahead. Hold on one second. Hold on. I am going to...
NC:
Oh, okay.
SM:
I thought I turned it off. Okay, go ahead.
NC:
All right, we cool? Okay. So, Abbie says "Fuck." That is the first thing he says on the interview. And David asked him if he was having fun. And then first thing Abbie says is, "What is this for?" Which is the typical thing that I heard from that time forward. Almost every place I went for the next 20 years, someone asked me, "What is this for?" But anyway, he did. And he said, "What are you going to do with this after it is done?" And David said, "Well, maybe we will put it on television." And Abbie says, "Network TV?" And David says, "Yeah, what do you think about network TV?" And Abbie says, "My favorite shows are Lawrence Welk and Land of the Giants. It is the truth. I thought I was just making fun of that because they are kind of campy. But then I figured out that they're the only shows I watch, so I must like them."
SM:
Actually, my parents loved Lawrence Welk.
NC:
Oh, there you go. Right, yeah.
SM:
So, they would have liked Abbie.
NC:
And let us see. Then they went on to discuss the weatherman action. Because then Abbie did say he liked the news, so David asked him about the weatherman. He said, "What do you think about the weatherman action last night when a brick was thrown through a barbershop window?" And Abbie said, he thought that was stupid. He said, "You have to lay an action so that you have some morality on your side so you can split the ruling class. What they did unites the ruling class," he said. Then David asked them if he thought he was going to get a fair trial. And Abbie said, "I will get the usual fair trial Chicago style. They are building gallows on the third floor. Some people say that is a pretty pessimistic sign, but I do not know. There is guys practicing a drum roll." And David says, "That is a little scary." And Abbie says, "No, no, not scary until the last days, then shocking. But it's never scary. No, it is just the last day when they say guilty and you said, "What? After all this shit, three fucking months, guilty?" And the poor jury says, "Abbie, they are doing time. They're just locked up. They cannot fuck or nothing. They cannot watch TV." "It is a good state of mind to put them in for the judge, isn't it?" Asked David. "Well, that is the thing that happens when you are locked up, because all they do is have contact with government people. US Marshals are the only ones they see, so eventually they feel an important part of the government team. The judge, the past four years has had 24 jury trials, and guess how many guilties?" "How many?" "24." Everyone laughs up joyously. What else could they do.
SM:
Now, just from being around, that is David Cort doing that interview?
NC:
Yes. Yeah.
SM:
Is this Cort K-O-R-T or C-O-R-T?
NC:
C-O-R-T.
SM:
K?
NC:
C-O-R-T.
SM:
Oh, yeah. Is he related to Cort Furniture?
NC:
I do not think so.
SM:
Okay. Because they are a pretty well-off group. How did these guys get along? I know that obviously Abbie and Jerry Rubin were in the Yippies, but how did he get along with the Haydens and the-
NC:
I am really not sure. They were from different groups. There was the Students for Democratic Society. There was mobilization for Bible and the Yippies and I do not know, a couple of other factions that really, I do not think they were together seriously, or friends, great, tight friends or anything, before the convention in (19)68.
SM:
Did you cover other countercultural happenings during that timeframe before you moved back-
NC:
Yes, because then we got totally involved in that and the war was refusing to be over. And so, we did cover many demonstrations, mostly in Washington DC. I am just going to look up the-
SM:
Were you at the, what do you call it? The-
NC:
was it (19)70 or (19)71? But I will find it.
SM:
There was the big one in (19)69, I know.
NC:
No, this was after that. It was very telling. Coming up here, coming up, coming up. Come on.
SM:
I am going to mention just two quotes of yours too, again. This is dealing going forward to (19)92 in the formation of CamNet, but I want you to talk about the counterculture, but these are quotes from you. "We are not here to confront them. We are here to hear them. I think people are starved to be heard. Most of the time people are not being heard." And then secondly, you love this, both you and other person, Kim. "And it is not just a job. It is a way of life." This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and (19)70s. That is me talking, because when you start talking about, and the things I have read about you and your other organizer of CamNet is that activism is a 24/7 thing. It is a seven day a week happening. It is not like volunteerism where you have two hours. And when you start talking about, "It is not just a job, it is a way of life. This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. We have to do this." And I love you have an attitude, "We have to do it." And-
NC:
I do not remember saying that. I am saying, "Who is that?"
SM:
You.
NC:
That is so true.
SM:
That is, you. That is, you and the person you worked with.
NC:
Judith.
SM:
Yes. Yeah.
NC:
Oh yeah. Here it is. It was 1971, one year after Kent State University demonstration where four students were shot dead by the Ohio National Guard. To commemorate that event, protestors were going to Washington to close down the government by blocking all major roads to the District of Columbia. And the Videofreex were going to document it. On April 29th, David, Davidson... I am naming these names of the people who are now Videofreex, Davidson Gelati, Chuck Kennedy, of course, Perry Tisdale, Carol Vontobel, prepared to drive down to DC to cover it. David had met Davidson on West Broadway one day during the CBS project, and Davidson had a porta packet. He had a video camera in his hand. It was very rare. So, David brought him home immediately and he joined up. It was just like that. People would just quit everything they were doing and come along. It was crazy. It was wonderful. Anyway, "In DC the Videofreex met up with a larger video collective, including a lot of kids from Antioch College in Ohio. The Mayday Collective had arranged for Crash Pad for activists." So, I say here, oh, "The Videofreex hit the street. It was loud and tear-gassy, and hovering helicopters were scattering the protestors."
SM:
This is on the 29th of April?
NC:
Yeah, this was the 1st of May. I say, "It's loud and tear... On television, president Nixon was addressing the nation."
NC:
On television President Nixon was addressing the nation, here is Nixon. "Some people on television may have gotten the impression that when they saw the demonstrations down at the Senate, and that Barry Goldwater's door had red paint on it, I understand, and his office was locked, and that Washington is somewhat in a state of siege. But well, let me just make one thing very clear, that Congress is not intimidated, the President is not intimidated, this government is going to go forward. It does not mean that we are not going to listen to those who come peacefully, but those who come and break the law will be prosecuted, the full extent of the law. In the meantime, however, I as president, have my obligation to consider what they say and all the other things that I know, and then make the decision that I think will be in their best interest as well as the best interest of the people of the country." And then the police are shouting over loudspeakers. "Attention, attention, this is the Metropolitan Police Department. Everyone must leave the area immediately. Those who do not leave the area in violation of the law and will be arrested." Helicopters are landing, military troops are swarming the streets, sirens. A man is dragged off into the bushes and clubbed by two DC cops, the young boy is pulled from his bicycle and shoved into a paddy wagon by police who trampled his bike in the process. David got clubbed in the knee by a cop for shooting video. A young woman medic wearing a headband and white T-shirt with a red Cross painted on it spoke to David's video camera while the people were being arrested and dragged off all around her. She was a modern-day Clara Barton on the front lines, naive, innocent, brave. "Why are you staying here?" David asked. "Oh, I am here because I ought to stay and get busted with my people. Some of the medics are going to go behind the pig lines and use pig tactics and do what the pigs say, I am not going to, I am going to stay and get busted with my people. And when somebody is getting beat on the ground I am going to stop the pig from beating him so I can help him. I am not going to say, oh dear sir with a silver badge, can I help you? Can I treat my people now? Fuck that shit, I am not going to do none of that." And that is how the kids were at that thing.
SM:
Wow. Yeah, the intensity was... Back in sixty when you are talking about what happened with the Black Panthers, some of the people I have interviewed were very supportive of groups like SDS when they became the Weathermen, or when the American Indian Movement went toward violence at Wounded Knee, or when violence ever became part of any of the other movements, that is when it turned people off.
NC:
Well, the violence, it turns people off. Violence? What about the wars, and what about the government's violence? Yes, it is a terrible thing, but it is also a reality.
SM:
You think it hurt the Black Panthers though? Because there were people that thought they were violent.
NC:
Well, something hurt the Black Panthers, they are gone. I mean, there are new Black Panthers now, but I do not really know what kind of effect [inaudible].
SM:
Well, I think the old Black Panthers do not like the new ones. But again, you and Judith Binder created CamNet.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
What movements or events brought you together in 1992?
NC:
Oh, well, I was living in LA, and I was working on The 90's, which was basically a larger group of the same people from the beginning for me. And it was based in Chicago, Tom Weinberg was the mover and shaker, he was the guy who got the money, he got the money from the MacArthur Foundation and some other places to put this together, and the sensibility of the videos was the same or even more so. And I met Judith downtown at the Wallenboyd Theater. I met Paul when I moved to Venice, and Paul was doing a show down at the Wallenboyd Theater, and Judith was producing other shows down there. And then we went out to dinner one night after a show, I had not known her. You know how you were sitting at a big table and there was a bunch of people? And she was sitting on one side of me, and I did not know her. And I overheard her saying something like, "I have so many videos that I have to shoot, I do not know what I am going to do. I do not have enough time, and I do not know what I am going to..." And I turned I said, " Videos, you are shooting videos?" And she said, "Yes." And she apparently had been doing it. She was a native LA, so she knew everybody in LA, and was putting together a lot of tape. And I said, "Well, you must come to Venice immediately." She came down there and she brought her tape, and we saw that we were doing the same thing. And so, I hired her to help me with The 90's, and after The 90's was over we stuck together and continued our quest.
SM:
I got some questions in a couple minutes about that program, The 90's. But I got here, you came together in (19)92, and then how...
NC:
We came together actually before that, but we came together and got CamNet going in (19)92. I think it was, or (19)91.
SM:
How did these movements that were taking place at this time... I am talking about the ones when you were at Videofreex, and then you moved off to different areas before CamNet. How did the development of these movements in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, which is the end... Well, obviously the women's movement formed, the gay and lesbian Movement after Stonewall in (19)69. You had the Native American movement, which is the AIM organization taking over Alcatraz in (19)69, through Wounded Knee in (19)73. You had Earth Day in 1970. You had the civil rights movement that was going through changes with the Black Panthers, and then the anti-war movement was continuing. So, you have got all these movements, did you cover all these movements, and did you see a closeness between the movements back then?
NC:
I do not know if I saw a closeness between the movements. I will tell you what, I do not know the answer to that. Everything was happening at once, it is true, it all happened, I did not know all the people that you just mentioned. But what is the question again?
SM:
It is basically, did you have a chance to cover all of these movements?
NC:
I did some things, it was not all politics either. It was arts, and it was sometimes just people who might not have been particularly activists or political. But we did a long series called Working based on Studs Terkel.
SM:
Oh yeah, great book.
NC:
So, we did a lot of things based on going to work with people, just ordinary people in all lines of work and all places. So, they were not necessary political or activists, but just being with them and spending that time, and seeing how people deal with their lives. The personal did become political to me, and I saw everything in sort of a larger sense.
SM:
Well, the people who write about the history of the anti-war movement and other movements say that only between five and 15 percent of the boomer generation was even involved in activism, and 85 percent were not.
NC:
That is right. I do not know what the boomers are, I do not even know what that is.
SM:
Boomer generation are people born between 1946 and 1964.
NC:
Right. So that does not mean anything to me, because I did not consider myself a boomer. Well, I am not really, I am a little older than that. But I do not think that just necessarily being born in those years would make you a part of the movements that happened while you were living.
SM:
Well, a lot of the people that were involved in leadership roles were born between (19)40 and (19)46.
NC:
That is me, yeah.
SM:
And I know Abbie Hoffman was, and I think Jerry Rubin was. But a lot of people have had problems with just the concept of generations like the Greatest Generation, which Tom Brokaw talked about. And then you got the boomer generation, you got the silent generation, you got Generation X, and then now you got the millennials. So, you have issues with those kinds of definitions?
NC:
Yeah, I am not concerned with that, because it is about what the issues are, what matters to you, or what becomes important to you.
SM:
When you were doing these things, like interviewing people linked to the Studs Terkel book, and people who were working, this was in the early (19)70s?
NC:
Yes, all through the (19)70s.
SM:
Did any of them ever say that any of these world events were having an effect on their lives, or they just talked about putting bread on the table every day?
NC:
That is right. I do not remember bringing up anything outside of their experience, because what I was doing was living their experience.
SM:
Right. And with Videofreex and CamNet, this is something I think you made reference to earlier, you are a female, and a lot of the problems in the late (19)60s is that most of these movements that I mentioned were sexist. That many women had to leave the anti-war movement and civil rights movements, because women were placed in secondary roles. And I know that in the gay and lesbian movement, it was the same thing, because I have talked to people. And I think in some of the other movements, except the environmental movement, I think it is similar. Did you sense sexism in the anti-war movement and the civil rights movements of the late (19)60s and (19)70s?
NC:
Oh, totally, yes. If I had been doing film, I do not know what I would have done, because of whole... Because video started when the women's movement started, and you were not allowed, it just was not acceptable to be sexist, and they were so very conscious of it. But in the meantime, film up until that point, and any filmmakers, even at the beginning, film collectives, definitely they did not have that thing going, because the men already knew how to run the film camera, and they already knew all that other stuff, and the woman might have just been learning. But with video, we all started at the same place, it was a new technology, it was a new camera, no one had ever seen it before, we all had to learn it together. So, when we learned it, it was not a question of the men learning it first and then deciding which women could do it. So, it just was my good fortune to run into this new tech, and all our boys were very good.
SM:
Did you see it in the Yippies, or even in the hippies? [inaudible].
NC:
I am sure, I did not know the Yippies very well, but when you read about them, you do not hear too much about women. Although lately I have met a lot of women who did a lot of that stuff then and were not noticed. I know them now, and I know they are very powerful and smart, and they probably made a lot of things happen, that it was never known.
SM:
This next question just deals with periods of the times when boomers have been alive. And again, forget just thinking about the boomer generation now, these are just periods after World War II, and what they mean to you personally, I asked the same question to Paul. I will ask broken down into parts here. In your eyes, briefly describe how you would define the following periods, and the first one is the period between 1946 and 1960?
NC:
Between 1946 and 1960.
SM:
1960, what was it like to live in America in that time from your perspective?
NC:
It was great, it was wonderful. Oh, your daddy was rich and your mom was good-looking. I did not have too many problems during those years, but I mean, of course the war was over, the cars were rolling off. I grew up in Detroit, Detroit now if you look, it is in the news how terrible it is. They're going to raise the whole town and put in farmland, there is nothing left in Detroit, the culture is gone, everything is gone. But between 1946 and 1960, the best years for Detroit. And in 1960 I turned 20, so I guess I was beginning to be an adult at the end of those times. So, I did not have any problems, I did not have to earn any money, and went to college, and I had a convertible car, and I drove anywhere I wanted to.
SM:
Did you have any issues with the late forties and (19)50s?
NC:
I am trying to think if I had any, I was just a child. But we were Democrats, and we never could win an election. But now looking back, I think Eisenhower was not so bad in comparison to what come after him.
SM:
What did you think of the period 1961 to 1970?
NC:
Oh, the (19)60s was just great, everything happened to me, my eyes were opened. I mean, I saw what a terrible world it was, and yet it was so very exciting, and I wanted to know everything. And I took a lot of chances, I had a lot of adventures, I took some drugs, met a lot of people, I moved around, and by the time 1970 happened I was clear about my past. So that was a very informative part of my life, everything happened then. And on the other end of the (19)60s, I ended up kind of feeling as if I knew who I was, and what I thought about things, and what I wanted to do.
SM:
Well, that gets right into 1971 to 1980.
NC:
Yes, those are my hippie years. It was just great, traveled everywhere. The camera took me everywhere, the camera was my ticket to adventure, thrills and chills, I really enjoyed it. I had just one health issue in the (19)70s.
SM:
How about the 1980s? 1981 to 1990.
NC:
Right. Well, in 1978 I moved to Woodstock, and in 1984 I moved to California. So, the beginning of the (19)80s was kind of not that exciting for me, because I had already done so much video. But I moved to Woodstock and put together this little access TV station, which was a lot of fun, and I taught a lot of people how to do it. But then I was not so excited about doing it with them anymore, I wanted something else. And so, I left it with them to do, and started over again in California. When I came to California, I had been working for so many years at a not-for-profit company. I realized that I did not have anything to show for it, I had to borrow $700 to fly to California with my duffel bag.
SM:
How about the (19)90s? 1991 to 2000.
NC:
Yes, and that was the Venice Beach. And then it was going back and forth from Chicago and traveling around, putting together the show for PBS, and then doing CamNet out of the back bedroom of our little house in Venice.
SM:
Wow, and how about 2001 to right now?
NC:
Right, in the end was 2000, the beginning of 2001, Paul and I moved to the desert. And let us see, I am trying to think. Well, it has gone so fast, it has gone by so quickly. I learned how to cook, I learned how to be a homemaker. We bought a house, which neither of us had ever owned a home before, so we have a home. I still shoot video, but I shoot it on a flip video, have you ever seen those things? I mean, it is the size of a pack of cigarettes, and it holds a couple of hours of... And it is not tape, everything is digital. So, I carry it in my pocket, if something is moving that interests me, I tape it. I do not tape it, I record it, and then I put it up on YouTube. So, I can put up anything I want at any time that is interesting to me. And there is a lot of protests and some things, and we're fighting to legalize marijuana and other things locally around here, that is kind of fun.
SM:
I am trying to get an interview with Dennis Peron, do you know?
NC:
Oh, definitely.
SM:
Yeah. Well, I had an interview with him and he was sick. Well, he emailed me and said he was sick about 15 minutes before I was supposed to call him, so I got to find out how he's doing, because that was three or four weeks ago.
NC:
Yeah. So that is good, and I also take hundreds of pictures every week, photos.
SM:
Are the Videofreex and the CamNet, are they all going someplace for posterity and history?
NC:
Yes, the Videofreex is at the Video Data Bank in Chicago. It's part of the Chicago Institute of Art.
SM:
Very good.
NC:
And it is so interesting, because I just went there a couple of years ago. And they have all of our tapes that were in Lanesville that were on shelves with all our handwriting on the side spines, and on shelves exactly the way that they were, they have them there. And I am looking down there, I say, "Oh, there is me playing Santa Claus." Just everything, it is amazing. And the Videofreex have, as I said earlier, put together a partnership. We are trying to restore a lot of these things, which many of these tapes may not be able to be played more than once, they are growing mold and other things. So, each tape has to be dealt with individually, and it costs some money to put them back in shape. So, we are raising money, and people and filmmakers are looking for this information, and are interested in having these tapes restored.
SM:
Important for history.
NC:
So yes, that is happening. And the other later stuff is being kept in Chicago also with a project called Media Burn, and they also have thousands of tapes from the (19)70s, (19)80s.
SM:
So, everything you are doing the rest of your life are actually going to go there as well?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Okay, good.
NC:
Yeah. And pretty much a lot of it is digitized, and you can go there and look at hundreds of hours of videos at Media Burn, and can see all that. And there's even a lot of Lanesville TV there.
SM:
This is a question; how would you respond to critics who say that a lot of the problems in our society today go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s when morality and ethics seemed to be wanting. And it led directly to the following, expansive drug culture, sexual mores dwindled, the divorce rate increased, more people became dependent on government welfare, more irresponsible behavior, sense of violence in our society, a lack of respect for authority, and the breakup of the American family. And then you even had Barney Frank, a Democrat, who in his book speaking frankly, saying that the Democratic Party could not survive if it did not denounce the anti-war people linked to George McGovern in 1972. For the Democratic Party to survive, it must say goodbye to the anti-war people. Just your thoughts on the critics of this era, and the critics are people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, Governor Huckabee, it is conservatives, but there are some liberals that say it too.
NC:
Well, that whole thing you just said, I think that is total bullshit, a hundred percent bullshit. So, all the things that you mentioned, those are all the good things that happened, and anything good that is happening now happened because, go back down on that list. I say the opposite.
SM:
Okay, and why would you say that?
NC:
Okay. Well, what was the first thing on that list? [inaudible].
SM:
Drug culture.
NC:
Drug use?
SM:
Yes.
NC:
Oh, please. It expanded your mind, it opened up your mind, it made you smarter and wiser. And I disregard that, I think that...
SM:
The divorce rate.
NC:
Divorce rate? Well, if they got divorced, that means that they should be divorced.
SM:
Sexual mores.
NC:
Sexual mores? Please, let us forget that puritan ethic. We do not want that.
SM:
Government welfare.
NC:
Government welfare? Well, I really wish there was more of it, we deserve to have it.
SM:
Irresponsible behavior.
NC:
Irresponsible behavior? And more of it.
SM:
Violence.
NC:
Violence? Well, violence breeds violence, that is true. I am for peace a hundred percent. I do not like violence, but I do not think it is the fault of the previous mentioned things that brings it on.
SM:
Breakup of the American family.
NC:
All right.
SM:
Lack of respect...
NC:
I do not think that is true though, because the families I know are not broken up, and the families I know their kids are brilliant and fabulous. And all the kids in my family are just superb, and all my friends' kids turned out great.
SM:
How about the... What was it here? I guess, the violence, lack of respect for authority.
NC:
Definitely, let us not respect authority.
SM:
And how about Barney Frank?
NC:
Barney Frank wants to get elected, he wants to keep his job. Nobody's perfect, I think he is probably a nice guy.
SM:
Yeah. Could you define some of the positive characteristics of the boomer generation based on those you have known and seen over the years? I know you cannot talk about 74 million people, but just some of the positives or negatives within the boomers that you have known, or some of their characteristics.
NC:
Well, I mean, everybody that I grew up with is them, right?
SM:
If they were born after the war.
NC:
Yeah, my sister was born the day after the war. She is so smart and brilliant, my sister, I wish she was president. I do not know. [inaudible]. Oh, give me a hint.
SM:
Well, that is up to you. Some people say they just cannot talk about 74 million people.
NC:
Well, I can talk about 70... I do not know, the boomer generation as opposed to... Well, the boomer generation, they had a good chance at it. They had a good chance, all the things that were happening between 1946 and now, because they are still alive, just a great time to be alive.
SM:
Was there a generation gap in your family between your parents and you?
NC:
Oh, yes.
SM:
Explain that.
NC:
Yeah. I think my parents were freaking out when I took off in the Volkswagen bus to drive to... I mean, because it was a little late for me to do that, but I did take some time off in the (19)60s to drive across the country and do some things that made them very worried. And they were just a little bit worried about in the early days, in the CBS project, they were kind of afraid for me, like my niece has just joined the Peace Corps and is going to Cameroon. "Right, that would be [inaudible]." If I did not know her, and I would say that. But my first reaction was, "Oh my God, where's that? Who lives there? What do you have to do?" I mean, I was afraid for her.
SM:
Yeah. I have always said one positive, this is about you, but I have always said one positive, is you could hitchhike back in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and go across the country and not worry about being murdered. Today you cannot hitchhike because you would probably end up dead.
NC:
That is right. So, I am afraid for her, but that is not rational because she's doing what she wants to do, and she is going to have a great adventure. And so, then my parents actually realized that at a certain point, when I said, "I do not want Nancy to go off with these crazy hippies, where people might be dangerous." And they finally said, "Well, that is what I do not want to do. Nancy wants to do that."
SM:
We always think of the generation gap as between parents and children, was there a generation gap within the generation, that is of boomers? Those who served in Vietnam or served in the military, and those who avoided service in Vietnam, would you consider that a generation gap?
NC:
Yeah, I would agree. I think so, that was tough.
SM:
Did you have any experiences with Videofreex interviewing Vietnam vets on their return, and their feelings toward the end of the war?
NC:
Yes, very much so, and also with the Vietnam Vets Against the War. And when we went to both political conventions in 1972, we went to the McGovern Convention and we went to the second Nixon, they were both in Miami Beach.
SM (02:34:05):
Can you hold it right there? I got to-
NC:
Yeah. Yes, I did not mention this group TV-TV, which stands for, what did it call? Top Value Television that was put together by a producer name of Michael Shamberg, who is big movie producer now. But we started out in New York together. There was Video Freaks, there was RainDance Corporation, there was People's Video Theater, and there was Global Village, were the four big video groups in New York City during the time of the Video Freaks. And RainDance Corporation was run by Michael Shamberg and was a very-very intellectual guy and put out a publication called Radical Software in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. Very smart guy. And he put together this video production group to cover the political conventions in 1972. And the video freaks marched with the Vietnam Veterans against the war, to both these conventions.
SM:
Ron Kovic, I believe was...
NC:
Ron Kovic had lots of videos. Ron, what a fantastic person. Really powerful.
SM:
I think that Bobby Mueller was another one, was not he? Bobby Mueller?
NC:
Bobby Mueller, but I do not know him. But video that we shot of Ron Kovic on the floor of the convention in 1972 at the Republican Convention Oliver Stone took that exact scene and recreated exactly in Born on the 4th of July. Tom Cruise. You can look at that movie and you can see him saying, stop the bombing. Stop the killing on the floor of the...
SM:
Do you remember some of the other Vietnam vets who you got to know?
NC:
Well, Frank Cavestani, he was also a video maker and also had been in the war and was a member of that group.
SM:
Did you ever have a chance to meet Jane Fonda?
NC:
I do not know Jane Fonda, no. I passed by her here and there at events, but I never met her or talked to her. I think Paul knows her, but I do not know.
SM:
In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Has there been a time like that for the young ever since, in your opinion? And in describing this period, give three examples that you remember of being young that stand out, could be good or bad.
NC:
Three examples of being young. Okay. Wait.
SM:
Good or bad.
NC:
Okay. How did you start the question?
SM:
In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
NC:
Well, it was just great, good luck, good fortune. And you know what, also for that other thing about sexual morals and that was, we did not have AIDS then. The kids today, they have the internet, they have digital, and they have a lot of things that move along more quickly and get you satisfied a lot faster. But they also have, that comes along with it, some terrible realities like AIDS and other things that are not so much fun. Well, and the music is not as great as it used to be, but I am old. Yeah, I think that being young at that time, that was... A lot of kids today, they wish they were... A lot of people say to me, they wish they would have been alive then.
SM:
You have had so many experiences in your life.
NC:
Many.
SM:
But are there three that you can remember that it was, wow, am I glad I am young now, or Geez, this is rough. This is a bad scene here, and I am a young person. Any just anecdotes that stand out?
NC:
I do not know. There was a sense of freedom, it is hard to describe. Well, there's the thing about money. We do not talk about money. I never made any. I could say that that is the bummer of the whole thing is I ended up here with 4 cents.
SM:
Well, that is a lot of people thought of the (19)60s money was secondary.
NC:
Worse than secondary. Hated it. Anything that had to do with money, I had no respect for money or people who liked or had or wanted to make money, no respect for that. Now I do not feel quite that way.
SM:
Yeah. And some of the richest people in the world today are Boomers. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
NC:
Yeah, the (19)60s. Well, the (19)60s began for me, I am not going to say (19)65, even though for most people it probably did. But I was very straight working in the theater in New York at the time, was thinking about politics. I noticed that there was something happening at Columbia University, and a lot of people were protesting. Then I became much aware, that was like (19)67, (19)68, I became very aware of the counterculture, which I considered to be the (19)60s. And I think for me, maybe it was a short period of time, although it seems like it was so huge. But Kent State kind of killed it, all the goodness of it all.
SM:
Right.
NC:
And although I lived the (19)60s all during the (19)70s. For some people it might have ended, but for me it maybe ended around (19)78, I would say, because cause of my lifestyle.
SM:
Was there a watershed moment?
NC:
When it was over?
SM:
No. Was there a watershed moment that you feel for you was the most important happening during that timeframe? Maybe not only for you, but for the young people of the Boomer generation? It is a two-part question basically.
NC:
For me, a watershed, I do not know. I do not know the answer. I could...
SM:
Some people it was the Kennedy assassination.
NC:
Oh, right. Yeah. That was bad.
SM:
And when you were talking about theaters, you were in New York in the late (19)60s, were you caught up in the theater of Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, because those were the two?
NC:
Yes, but I was not playing on Broadway. I played in cabaret theater, musical theater and cabaret. And I played in some Off Broadway, and I did radio shows, and I did TV commercials. I had an agent, my agent would send me for the best gig. Oh, I had a watershed back then, I suppose, because somebody sent me some acid from California when I was still working at theater. I had smoked pot, but I was never into psychedelics particularly. But I did not know it would work. It was like a little piece of [inaudible]. It was nothing. It was a joke. I just put it on my tongue. I forgot about it. I thought it was a joke and then I started to trip. And it was that day that I had an audition at Gray Advertising on Third Avenue for a big commercial for Dial soap. This was important. I was tripping, but I knew I had to go. And I went on the subway and everybody's face was melting and wild animals on the train.
SM:
Oh my God.
NC:
It was crazy. And I found the place, and I went up there and I read the ad. I was waiting for my chance to read for these advertising executives to see if I could get this commercial. And it was so disgusting that I quit the business.
SM:
Oh.
NC:
I gave the script back. They wanted me to take a shower and feeling really not so good feeling. And then you get in the shower with this bar of soap and it makes you feel so great and exhilarated. And I did not want to do it, I do not want to do what they tell me. And I said, well, wait a second. I am an actor and my job is to do what the director tells me. And I was sitting there in the waiting room there next to a woman who looked just like me, who was reading the same script. I said, no, I do not want to do this. I just did not know what I was going to do really, but I just handed the script back to the receptionist and said, oh, I do not like this. And I left. And I went outside onto Third Avenue, and I was like exhilarated and thrilled. And I said, oh, I just quit showing business. This is the greatest moment in my life. And it was maybe a year later that I got this job as the assistant to the producer at CBS after not having worked in show business as it was.
SM:
You would have been real good as a backdrop for 60 Minutes. You would have been. That is right up your alley.
NC:
Yeah, that is true. Except that was just really too straight for me, I could never go back to something like that.
SM:
Why did the war in Vietnam end, in your opinion?
NC:
Why did it end?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
NC:
Because we lost I think. We lost the war. Us lost the war.
SM:
How important were the college students in ending the war, in your opinion?
NC:
Well, I think they had something to do with it, because you cannot tell somebody that they are going to be drafted. Talk about quitting show business. You have to do what they tell you and go where they say and go and get killed. That is why they protested. That is why we do not have so much protest now, I think, because we have a professional army rather than a citizen army.
SM:
Do you remember exactly where you were when you heard that JFK was killed?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Could you describe that?
NC:
Sure. I was working at the Vanguard Playhouse in Detroit. It was my first day off without a rehearsal because I was working in repertory theater. You do the show at night, and then you're rehearsing all day the next day for the next show, but then you go. But we had just opened a show, and I did not have any rehearsal that day. Living in a little apartment by myself. And I had just made myself a nice plate of asparagus and was watching a movie on TV with Betty Davis on it. I do not know the name of the movie because I did not see the beginning of it. There was tension, and it was black and white, very noir, very, very exciting. And she was walking with tension down the stairway. Someone was knocking on the door, she was about to open the door, and they cut away. Then they showed what was happening. They never cut back to anything for a week. They played for a week. And I was hysterical, crying, what did I know? I really loved him. I thought I really loved him. And I called up the director at the theater. I said, [inaudible] we cannot do the show tonight, we cannot go on. Everything is canceled. Everything is closed. No one is doing anything. It is all over. Everything is over. The world is over. He said, Nancy, just make sure you get here by call time for our show tonight. I said, no, how can we? How can we? He said, we have subscribers. They want theater. Whether they come or not, we are doing the show. The show must go on. And that is what it was. The show must go on. He actually said that.
SM:
And John Kennedy, if he were alive, would have told you to do it.
NC:
Maybe so, that is true. And then afterwards, I was singing in a club. After the show, I would go down to Momo's Cocktail Lounge where I was singing with a little trio, jazz stuff. And it was very not crowded. It was very, very glum and dreary over at the piano bar. And then as it got late, midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, people started coming in. Just to be, we were there together with each other.
SM:
Have you been to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC?
NC:
The what?
SM:
Have you been to the wall in Washington DC?
NC:
I have not.
SM:
Oh. Because I just want to know what your initial thoughts were on the wall?
NC:
But it is beautiful, and I think it is amazing. Better than a statue or some shit.
SM:
Since you have not been there it is hard to say. But if you are in a dream, say, and you are visiting the wall, what do you think your first reaction would be upon seeing it or being near it?
NC:
Well, I probably would go and touch it. I remember once I was at the Western wall in Jerusalem, approaching that, and my first instinct was to press my body up against it. I do not know why, but I did. But I feel like I might have the same reaction.
SM:
Was the generation born between (19)46 and (19)64, or the people born around it, which would include, I call pre-Boomers like you and Paul and Abby. I think you're all part of it. Richie Haven said to me once, he was born in (19)40, between (19)40 and I think 1940. He said, I am a Boomer. I am a Boomer in attitude. And I am not of the greatest generation or the silent generation. I am a Boomer.
NC:
Yeah. I think of him as that.
SM:
Yeah. The question I am asking is, do you think that the attitude that this generation, that they were the most unique generation in American history. What are your thoughts when you hear that? Because a lot of young people thought it when they were young and they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to bring peace to the world, and racism, sexism, homophobia. And people look at the world today and they say, man, the Boomers have failed.
NC:
Right. Well, I did not think the Boomers thought they were going to change the world, now that you mention it. It just happened to them, that a lot of things changed during that time. Not too many people I know told me at a young age they felt they were going to change the world.
SM:
So, this attitude of uniqueness, you do not think.
NC:
Well, I think it is okay if some people think that, but sure, why not?
SM:
Has the idealism died within the Boomer generation for most?
NC:
Probably.
SM:
Yeah.
NC:
I think there is still idealism in the new generations. I think the new generation, my little Sarah [inaudible] who was born in Lanesville at the commune, she is a physician, she is doctor. And actually two of our girls are physicians. And they study all kinds of things like new world planning. This new generation, I have hope for them, I think that they can fix things. They really care. What do you call people who are between 25 and 35 now?
SM:
I think their generation Xer's.
NC:
Okay. The kids that we raised, that we know are a lot of generation Xer's, and they are smart.
SM:
The ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)81 are Generation Xer's. The ones from (19)82 on are millennials. So, which...
NC:
I do not know too much about the millennials. The Xer's I think they can do something.
SM:
The materials and literature I have is that Xer's do not get along with Boomers, but that is another story. The two issues here, very important. The first one is a label that is been put on many people in the generation is they're a generation that does not trust. Is that a good or a negative?
NC:
Trust. That the Boomers do not trust?
SM:
Yeah, it is a quality, that they are not a very trusting generation. And they may pass...
NC:
Oh, I do not trust anybody. I used to trust people, but I do not trust anybody anymore.
SM:
A lot of this lack of trust was because many of them saw the leaders that had failed them or lied to them, whether it be President Johnson on the Gulf of Tonkin.
NC:
Sure.
SM:
Watergate with Richard Nixon. Of course, you do not know about Agnew.
NC:
All of it.
SM:
McNamara and the lies about the numbers game. And so there's a lot of lying and lack of trust. So...
NC:
That is right. And I do not think it is any different now. It is just worse and worse and worse. Trust fewer. And I do not trust, maybe there is like three people I trust.
SM:
Well, the two things, one, I had a professor once who said in an introduction into psychology, if you cannot trust others in your life, you will not be a success. And then if you are a political science major, the first thing you will learn is a healthy democracy means that people do not trust their government. And by not trusting their government, it shows that liberty is alive and well.
NC:
Yeah. Right. That is both ends there.
SM:
The other thing, and this is very important, and it is a question of healing. I took a group of students to Washington to meet former Senator Musky, who was at the (19)68 convention. He was a Democratic vice-presidential nominee.
NC:
Wonderful guy.
SM:
And it was before he died, and it was in the middle (19)90s. And the students came up with this question. They thought he would respond based on what was happening in America in 1968. And this is the question. Due to the divisions that were taking place at the time, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, and all the violence that was happening in the inner cities because there were a lot of riots and burnings like at Watts, and after Dr. King died. Do you feel that this generation, which is the Boomer generation, will go to its grave when their time comes similar to the civil war generation, not healing from the divisions that tore them apart? Do you think that is an issue within the post-World War II generation?
NC:
What did he say?
SM:
I want to hear what you said first.
NC:
Oh, well, I think healing is possible. And I think to a certain extent there has been some healing between those factions that you mentioned. Maybe it's wishful thinking. But no, I think there has been some healing from women's movement and I think between the races, possibly, at least in this country. No, I think there is, and can be healing between these facts.
SM:
Senator Musky did not even respond to 1968. He did not even mention it in his response. He said, we have not healed since the Civil War because of the racial issues that are still present in our society. And he said he had just watched the Ken Burns Civil War series, and it just brought tears to his eyes because almost an entire generation was wiped out. 430,000 men were killed in that war, not including the ones that were hurt. And it was a devastating war, and that people did go to their graves not healing in the Civil War generation.
NC:
Yes, the Civil War is unforgivable.
SM:
But he did not even mention 1968. In other words, he was saying it was a non-issue.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And some people have said that I should rephrase the question and simply say, those who fought in the war and those who were in the anti-war movement, that would make it much more relevant a question.
NC:
Oh, well, I do not know. I do not know what people are thinking about that. The people who were in the war and the people who were not in the war.
SM:
Any other thoughts on that?
NC:
No-no.
SM:
Since you were in the video area, there were a lot of movies in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that kind of stood out. They kind of showed the (19)60s and the (19)70s for what they were all about. Are there movies that you feel, or if someone a hundred years from now was to put on a whole group of movies that would really define the Boomer generation, what would those movies be?
NC:
We are talking about regular movies alone or something?
SM:
Yeah. Regular movies.
NC:
Movies are a big disappointment, especially if they are trying to make some be kind of realistic when they are not.
SM:
Are there any movies from the (19)50s, the (19)60s, and the (19)70s, or even the (19)80s, that when you see them or watch them, wow, that is really emblematic of the time they were made?
NC:
Oh, emblematic when they were made. (19)50s. Well, I am not saying I like these movies. If I mention them, it does not mean I like them. But I was just reading this morning about Dennis Hopper's movie about, what was the name of that?
SM:
Easy Rider?
NC:
Easy Rider. That was a (19)60s movie. Right?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
NC:
Okay. (19)70s. I am saying that it was about what was going on, and it sort of was and artistic in a certain way. Okay. Movies. I watch movies every day. We watch Flickers almost every day. We watch...
SM:
How about, can I mention something?
NC:
They are so forgettable. Yes. Do tell-
SM:
The Graduate.
NC:
The Graduate. Yes. Yes. The Graduate.
SM:
And another one, Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was...
NC:
Bob and Carol Ted and Alice is a terrible movie. What was that supposed to be saying? Was supposed to be saying what? That we could all sleep together.
SM:
Yeah. Then of course, you have got the movies like Shaft in the (19)70s.
NC:
Shaft. Right. And Shaft is like that...
SM:
Saturday Night Fever.
NC:
... [inaudible] exploited this.
SM:
Saturday Night Fever, which the beginning of the disco.
NC:
Saturday Night Fever. I enjoyed that film.
SM:
There has been a lot of good movies on Vietnam from Apocalypse Now to A Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver. I mean the...
NC:
Taxi river. You got them all. I would say, yeah. Those are the me memorable films. It is true. For me, I do not think about them.
SM:
But in the (19)50s, you got to look back at the James Dean movies because of The Rebel.
NC:
The Rebel.
SM:
The kind of gangs, before we had that was the (19)50s. Okay. The other thing here, I am now to the section where I just want you to, what did the following mean to you? That you do not have to have any long descriptions, just immediate reactions to it.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
What does the Wall mean to you? It could just be a sentence.
NC:
The wall?
SM:
Yeah. The Vietnam Memorial.
NC:
It means a lot of people died for nothing.
SM:
Watergate?
NC:
Watergate. Watergate. Watergate. Oh, Watergate. The first thing I think of is Fuck Nixon.
SM:
That is all I need. Woodstock?
NC:
Woodstock, of course. Well, Woodstock changed my life. Really. It did. Even though I could not get there because the freeway was too full.
SM:
How about the Summer of Love?
NC:
Summer of Love. Oh, I did not participate in the Summer of Love. It was just right before I became a love person. Although I did watch them from the Plaza Hotel where I was having brunch. I saw the them in the park across by having a good time.
SM:
Did that song, Are You Going to San Francisco wear some flowers in your hair, did that influence you at all?
NC:
No.
SM:
Okay. How about Freedom Summer in 1964?
NC:
Freedom Summer. Yes. That was extremely important, right? I am not sure why.
SM:
That is when the people went down south for voting.
NC:
Yes. Oh yes, please. Yeah. That was very good. I was working in the theater and I did not think too much about it, but I knew it was big.
SM:
How about the free speech movement in Berkeley?
NC:
Yes. Free speech, the most important thing. Yes.
SM:
Kent State and Jackson State?
NC:
Well, Kent State and Jackson State, both just, it was the worst thing because it was true. It was true. It was truly happening.
SM:
How about Columbia?
NC:
Columbia.
SM:
(19)68.
NC:
Yeah. I remember Columbia. Although again, I was not involved, but I got caught up in one of their protests up town one time in a taxi. I thought it was pretty scary. It was just really the beginning. It was before the big push.
SM:
Right. How about the year 1968?
NC:
Year 1968, I dropped out. That is the year I dropped out. That was between the acid trip at the advertising agency and my job at CBS, where I traveled across the country in a Volkswagen bus... across the country in a Volkswagen bus. And I was not thinking about the world other than my own, in front of my own eyes.
SM:
How about 1975?
NC:
1975?
SM:
That is the year the helicopter went off the roof in Saigon.
NC:
Oh, the end of the war ish. Yeah. Whoa, long overdue.
SM:
Chicago eight.
NC:
Chicago eight. The greatest. The greatest, how should I say it? It was a big, big entertainment, cute. I loved it.
SM:
How about Tet?
NC:
Who?
SM:
Tet. T-E-T.
NC:
Oh, the Tet. The Tet. Oh, the Tet.
SM:
Tet in Vietnam.
NC:
Yeah. Yeah. That was what year was that?
SM:
That was in 1968.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Some people say it is the beginning of the end for Johnson, so.
NC:
Yeah. Well, yeah. At least that.
SM:
Hippies, just the term hippies.
NC:
Love hippies. Love the hippies.
SM:
How about yippies?
NC:
Love the yippies.
SM:
With more emphasis. How about the-
NC:
Yeah. I have got my own personal hippie yippie.
SM:
Yeah, with Paul's unbelievable. You know something, I have interviewed people that know him. He has got so many people that respect him with a capital R.
NC:
You bet.
SM:
And there are people that I have interviewed that are not only friends of his, but critics of his, but the worst thing that they come up is genuine, real, and respected.
NC:
That is right.
SM:
And boy, he is a tremendous person. I read his biography. It is a great book.
NC:
It is.
SM:
The term counterculture.
NC:
Yeah, counterculture. That is what we needed and that is what we got.
SM:
Now these are just going back to the (19)50s now. You were younger. What is your perception of the McCarthy hearings?
NC:
McCarthy hearings was great television, for one of the first live television experiences that we had as a family. And it was remarkable in that way.
SM:
The Cuban Missile Crisis.
NC:
Cuban Missile Crisis, scary. That was really scary. Everyone was scared. But I had rehearsals and I could not be concerned, but I noticed all around me, people were very worried that it was, we were going to get nuked or something.
SM:
The Gulf of Tonkin.
NC:
The Gulf of Tonkin. I do not know.
SM:
That was the thing that started the Vietnam War.
NC:
Yeah. No, I do not.
SM:
March on Washington, 1963.
NC:
Yeah, a beautiful thing that is gave you hope.
SM:
Black Power.
NC:
Black Power definitely had to happen, had to have it.
SM:
Black Panthers.
NC:
Same there.
SM:
Students for Democratic Society.
NC:
Yes. Well, they did not have a very good sense of humor, I do not think, but they were very, very serious students for a democratic society. I do not know them too well.
SM:
The Weathermen.
NC:
The Weathermen. Oh, yeah. They blew up the house next door to my friend on 11th Street.
SM:
Yeah. Dustin Hoffman lived nearby. I remember that he used to go, he went over and was looking at it. They had him within-
NC:
Next door blew. I had to move out of their house because the wall was fucked up because the house next door was blown up.
SM:
Wow.
NC:
The Weathermen. Really, what were they thinking? I could have never done anything like that.
SM:
The American Indian movement.
NC:
Yes, very important. Please, we need it so much still.
SM:
And of course, they are known for Alcatraz, taking it over there.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Stonewall.
NC:
Stonewall. Yes, we had it. That came finally.
SM:
(19)69.
NC:
And that made a big, big difference. And that really, I think, got that movement going big time.
SM:
Earth Day.
NC:
Earth Day was-
SM:
1970.
NC:
Much respect in the beginning. I remember the first one. I think we have tape of that. Plenty of good tape for the first Earth Day.
SM:
Did you interview Gaylord Nelson?
NC:
I did not personally, but I think there might be some stuff there. There might be some stuff.
SM:
You may not know that, again, I got to know him quite well and before he died, and I interviewed his daughter. If there is any tapes of Gaylord Nelson, this is just for, to put it on the back of your brain here. His archives at the University of Wisconsin are being put together now since he died, and I am sending all my pictures that I have taken of him when he came to our campus. So, if there is anything in the life of Gaylord Nelson.
NC:
I will look around for that.
SM:
Yeah. Tia Nelson, the daughter, who is now one of the top environmental leaders in Wisconsin. So, I would let them know that they exist, because then they would be going right to the archives for students.
NC:
All right. Let me put the word out, see if I can find any.
SM:
Okay. How about the Peace Corps?
NC:
The Peace Corps. I would never consider the Peace Corps, but as I mentioned, my darling niece is signed up and they accepted her. But for me, this may or not may be true, but I do not feel like I would want to go as a representative of the US government to any country. I think that is the end of my sin.
SM:
Yeah. How about the Pentagon Papers?
NC:
Pentagon Papers were an important thing. Speaking of those recently, what is that guy's name again?
SM:
Oh, it is ... Now I am getting tired. Let us see here.
NC:
Daniel. Daniel Els.
SM:
Daniel Ellsberg, yes.
NC:
Yes. Well, he was no hippie, that is for sure. But he-
SM:
He was a Marine.
NC:
Yeah. His eyes were opened. I believe that he saw the truth and had the courage to.
SM:
How about Woodward and Bernstein?
NC:
Woodward and Bernstein. Not bad writers.
SM:
They are the ones that revealed Watergate.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And black and white TV of the 1950s and (19)60s. What did you think of it?
NC:
Beautiful. Love it. I was into it.
SM:
Was it truthful?
NC:
Truthful? What do you mean, truthful?
SM:
I bring it up because it kind of made you feel good, but it hid the racism in our society.
NC:
Oh, that. Oh, yeah. Well, it was just a baby. It was just about [inaudible].
SM:
Still there? Hello? Well, I am just at the last part here, which is about some of the personalities of the period. And again, real quick thoughts, a few words about these people or their products. The first one is Tom Hayden. What were your thoughts on Tom?
NC:
He is a seriously smart guy.
SM:
How about Jane Fonda?
NC:
Jane, I think she has been used and abused.
SM:
Huey Newton?
NC:
Huey P newton. Huey P Newton. I do not really know. I do not too much about him personally.
SM:
How about Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen Cleaver?
NC:
Eldridge Cleaver. Oh, it is...
SM:
They are Black.
NC:
I know they went to Algeria, kidnapped Timothy Leary. Let me see. Those guys, they are too heavy duty for me to really understand what it was, the inner workings of the Black Panther party and the politics of that. Are they murderers? Are they not murderers? I do not know.
SM:
And the last two are Bobby Seale and H. Rap Brown. Of course, they are Black Panthers too.
NC:
Bobby Seale. I know Bobby Seale, not well, but I ... That is him recently. He is an easy interview.
SM:
I tried to get him to be interviewed. He said nope.
NC:
You are kidding.
SM:
No. He does not interview too many people. He does not.
NC:
Oh. Well, I do not know because he has got his wrath. He is a very lucid speaker and very dedicated and is not really changed his mind over the years. He has been saying the same thing.
SM:
The other one was H. Rap Brown. He is in jail the rest of his life.
NC:
I do not know H. Rap.
SM:
Malcolm X.
NC:
Malcolm X, I think he was a great person. I can see how people were frightened of him. But even if a wimpy person, I am, but I still think that he was major, brilliant.
SM:
How about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.?
NC:
Yes. Yes, finest.
SM:
Angela Davis.
NC:
Angela Davis. Strong, powerful sister.
SM:
This is an event, Attica.
NC:
Attica, Governor Rockefeller. To this day, everything he touched was horrible. It is still going on. And that just reminds me of the horrible corruption of the government of the State of New York.
SM:
San Quentin, which is where George Jackson was.
NC:
Yeah. No, I do not know much about that. It was not good, right?
SM:
Yes, it is a prison with a lot of inmates.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Alcatraz. I say that because that is what the Native Americans took over. Actually, Jane Fonda went over there and supported them.
NC:
Yes. Yes, she did. I do not know.
SM:
Stokely Carmichael?
NC:
I do not know Stokely.
SM:
How about Bayard Rustin?
NC:
No, I do not even know that name.
SM:
Oh, he was the co-organizer of the March on Washington (19)63.
NC:
Oh. Oh, for him, that is good.
SM:
With A. Philip Randolph. How about Eleanor Roosevelt?
NC:
Eleanor Roosevelt, a brilliant woman way ahead of her time.
SM:
JFK.
NC:
JFK. Oh, JFK. JFK, I have heard of him.
SM:
John Kennedy.
NC:
Yeah, John Kennedy. Well, I think everything has been said about John F. Kennedy.
SM:
How about LBJ?
NC:
I hated him. I really, truly did.
SM:
How about Bobby Kennedy?
NC:
Bobby Kennedy, if it only it were true, and if only he had lived.
SM:
Hubert Humphrey?
NC:
No, not Hubert Humphrey. I am not interested in him.
SM:
Eugene McCarthy.
NC:
Yes. Good guy. Yes. But it could have never won, but because he was so good, so right.
SM:
George McGovern.
NC:
Yes, I liked him too. Same reason.
SM:
Richard Nixon.
NC:
Richard Nixon will live forever. And just when you think he has gone, he is back. And he has got tons of stuff that has not been released yet.
SM:
Both he and LBJ.
NC:
Endlessly fascinating. I did not agree with him, but he was so much fun.
SM:
Probably the greatest Vice President in the history of America, Spiro Agnew.
NC:
Spiro.
SM:
I am only kidding. Any thoughts on him?
NC:
No. I think that, but somebody did tell me that an anagram of his name is grow a penis.
SM:
No, that might be true then. That is what a lot of people thought of him. Robert McNamara.
NC:
Robert McNamara. Robert McNamara, the guy who lied about everything in the war?
SM:
Yep. He was in charge, Secretary of Defense.
NC:
Yeah, unforgivable. Unforgivable, twice.
SM:
How about Henry Kissinger?
NC:
Oh, the worst.
SM:
We are getting into the (19)80s now. Ronald Reagan.
NC:
Ronald Reagan. I despised him.
SM:
Gerald Ford.
NC:
What a dope.
SM:
Jimmy Carter.
NC:
He was never elected, ever to be president. I mean he is. He is just a joke. Okay.
SM:
Jimmy Carter.
NC:
Jimmy Carter, naive. Right on all the environmental issues. Just a little bit too Christian for my taste.
SM:
Dwight Eisenhower.
NC:
Dwight Eisenhower, the military industrial complex. But then again, he was a general in the Army. How good could that be? I do not know.
SM:
Harry Truman.
NC:
Harry Truman. I do not like Harry Truman. I do not like the Atomic Bomber, anyone who would drop it.
SM:
Bill Clinton.
NC:
No. And I was a fool. He is the only person I ever voted for who won as president, but I only voted for him once. Oh. But, ah.
SM:
George Bush, the first. Sounds like a king.
NC:
I do not even want to say anything about him. He is nothing. He is worse than none.
SM:
And how about his son, George Bush the second?
NC:
Is he a boomer?
SM:
Yes, he is. Both he and Clinton are boomers.
NC:
Right. Well, it is not the boomers' fault. I am trying to think of something relevant about him. I do not even like to make jokes about him.
SM:
President Obama. He is a boomer too.
NC:
I know. But I still love Obama.
SM:
George Wallace.
NC:
George Wallace, the guy who changed from being a racist to being an invalid? Even after they take off their take, take, take caps, can you really ever like them?
SM:
Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock.
NC:
Dr. Spock. I do not think my mother used his book with me, but most bloomers got raised by Dr. Spock. And a lot of them are very disappointed in his advice.
SM:
Dr. Timothy Leary.
NC:
I love Timothy Leary. Timothy Leary is great. A lot of people criticize him, but he's a brilliant guy and he escaped from prison. I mean, how big is that? How impossible could be.
SM:
Think I forget who the people were that got him out.
NC:
The Weathermen. The Weathermen.
SM:
Oh, that is right. That is right.
NC:
Well, I read a few of his books, some of the books, and I knew him personally mostly in his dying days. And I just joined his company some.
SM:
Oh, so you were around him during his dying days?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Did he change at all from the time he left Harvard to when he died?
NC:
I do not know if he changed when he, no. I do not know. I would not say that he changed a lot. No. No.
SM:
He was a close friend of Ram Dass, I believe.
NC:
Yes, I know him too.
SM:
And Ram Dass-
NC:
They are both friends. They are both close.
SM:
One had a stroke. I think Ram Dass had a stroke.
NC:
Yes, he did. Yes, he did. But he is doing very well, considering.
SM:
Can he talk?
NC:
Yes, he can talk. He lives here. He would be fun to go see. He lives in Hawaii.
SM:
He lives where?
NC:
In Hawaii.
SM:
Oh.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
You do not think he would do an interview, do you?
NC:
He might. You never know.
SM:
Could you send me his email address?
NC:
Oh, I will ask Paul. Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. Yeah, because I mentioned to Paul about Ferlinghetti, who's the beat writer, and he said go for it.
NC:
Yeah, sure.
SM:
Your thoughts on the beats, because many people thought that they were the precursors to the (19)60s, and their challenge to authority way back in the (19)50s. Allen Ginsberg, Cassidy Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman Snyder, and Jones. Your thoughts on the beats?
NC:
Yes. I liked those poems. I was kind of interested in poetry for a while and the brattier, the better.
SM:
Did you meet any of the beats ever?
NC:
Not really.
SM:
Have you ever met Ferlinghetti? He is right down in San Francisco, I guess.
NC:
I know. They just published Paul's most recent book.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
They were up. But I have not met Ferlinghetti. No, I do not know him.
SM:
Did you ever read any of their books?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Which one did you like the best?
NC:
Ferlinghetti, what was the name of the book to?
SM:
I am not sure. He wrote so many.
NC:
I know.
SM:
What would you think of Barry Goldwater?
NC:
Barry Goldwater, I like him better now than I did then. Although, we did not really know what was happening back in those days. He was just the president.
SM:
William Buckley.
NC:
William Buckley. Oh. I see he is really smart.
SM:
How about-
NC:
I do not agree with.
SM:
How about your thoughts on communes?
NC:
Well, people say I lived on a commune for eight years. I lived with some several other people in one place, and it worked out very well for me. I did not need to have any money and our company paid for all the dentist, doctor, all the food, the thing, this, all the equipment. They wrote all the grants, got all the money, did all the things. But I worked in the garden, did all that stuff. And it did not seem like anything out of the ordinary to me. It was like a way to live for me. But I do not know about the communes that are the famous communes.
SM:
Like the farm still exists.
NC:
Right. And I know them. I know with the farm, and I like them very much.
SM:
Steve Casket. I interviewed him.
NC:
I liked Steve, and I like Aida May very, very much. And he's just adorable, wonderful. Changed the life of so many women.
SM:
LSD.
NC:
LSD, that was a great thing. It was a great thing that happened and it was good for humankind.
SM:
Just the whole concept of the Cold War, did that ever scare you?
NC:
It did not really. I wish it was back, actually. Better than the other one.
SM:
Yeah. When you said you were 20. When you turned six, was it 1960?
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
So you were in high school when the Cold War was in its prime. Did you ever fear the nuclear attacks and all the other stuff?
NC:
No, I never did.
SM:
Okay.
NC:
Just it had no basis in reality to me. I could not relate to it.
SM:
That was also the period of Sputnik.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
There is a rise of higher education, which is a very important part of the (19)60s too. So many people going to college. How about the Korean War? Did that have any links to that at all?
NC:
Oh, was it summer? It was at summer camp. I could not believe there was another war. Well, it was just one was over and now there was another war. It was crazy. It is still going on too.
SM:
I agree. A lot of people think it's coming back because of our tensions with Russia. Although, President Obama's a friend right now with the president, but we will see what happens. My next to last question is pictures say a thousand words. You were a photographer. Of all the pictures from the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s that were in magazines and that were in newspapers, are there several pictures that you think stood out that were symbolic of the times?
NC:
Well. Oh, well, the 10th state picture and the picture of the man shooting the man in the head. And well, there are the images I think of are all horrible.
SM:
Yeah, that is interesting.
NC:
Just off the top of my head there are, it just, I could never read Life Magazine. I would never even open it. People said, "Oh, why, because they could have great photography." Well, I did not want to see the pictures for every time I looked at it, it was something horrible and big and in really good definition. No.
SM:
Yeah. I think there were, you hit one. The picture of the girl over the body at Ken State. That is one of the top 100 of the 20th century.
NC:
Yeah. Is it?
SM:
And of the girl in the picture, the one that was burned in the Vietnam War.
NC:
Yes. Oh.
SM:
That is Kim Phuc. And then the athletes at the (19)68.
NC:
It is the fifth.
SM:
The fifth up in the air. That is another big one. And certainly, mean lies another one and that.
NC:
But were there any happy pictures?
SM:
I am trying to think of any. Of course, the Kennedy or the assassination of Dr. King.
NC:
Oh, it is awful.
SM:
I am trying to think. I think the happy ones may have been the space. Well, because the space program is growing then and landing on the moon and everything. When all is said and done, the best books are written about a 50 to 100 years after a particular event are happening. When the last boomer or the last person who was in this group has passed on, what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing about this period, about this generation and their impact on America and the world?
NC:
I have no idea. I hope they have your book.
SM:
My books, at the rate it is going, it is going to be two books.
NC:
Really? I mean, it is huge, huge, huge. And I think that, and I hope that it will work.
SM:
Well, what I am hoping to do in this book is that I am going to be adamant. I have already been one University Press. I have only contacted two. They are both interested, but I do not have any contract. But the thing is, you got to cut them down and you have got to, I am going to edit them. You will see your, so will Paul eventually, because I am six months I am hibernating to transcribe and send them out, is that they are not going to compromise the interviews. I am not going to do it. I want to reach college students and high school students. I want them to love history again. I want them to read about people and to understand the times that they may not have lived in, but also to inspire boomers to read this because every person has a story to tell. Everybody is legitimate. We may disagree, but I think we can agree that we can disagree. And that is what I want to do on this. So that there is a lot of people that do not like other people in the book. I have one person who told me, "I am not going to be interviewed by you. You interviewed that person." And he said goodbye. I do not want that kind of a person.
NC:
That is right. I agree with you.
SM:
And so I like people like you and Paul, and some of the people that Paul has recommended. I did not get all the people that Paul recommended because a couple of them said no, and then some did not respond. But that is okay. That is part of any process.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
But what other-other organization I wanted to mention was the Young Americans for Freedom. Did you know anything about that group?
NC:
Well, sort of, maybe.
SM:
They were the more conservative group.
NC:
Yes, they were. I thought they were a bunch of dopes. But they are still very, very big today.
SM:
Yeah, and they were-
NC:
Because they got their start in that organization, became very successful. The people I knew who got their start in that organization became very successful in Washington, DC in several different.
SM:
That started at William Buckley's home.
NC:
Did it?
SM:
Yeah. She started it in the early (19)50s. And one thing I did not ask you is about the women, which is the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug.
NC:
Yes. Yes-yes. Yes, them.
SM:
And Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. What did you think of those women?
NC:
Well, I loved them. And Bella, she was at the ... I met her in 1972 at the Democratic Convention, and she was just great with us. She was so wonderful, so forthcoming, just right there for us. So we enjoyed her company so much. And I liked Ms. Magazine. I wrote for it a couple of times, and I think that Gloria Steinem is the person that asks the question to whatever the question is. I said, "Well, why do not you ask Gloria Steinem because she is so smart and fast, she is going to get it right away."
SM:
Yeah. I have learned it even within the movements, there is disagreements, which is obvious. And so, one of the questions that I have asked a lot of people, and I am not going to ask this, but is that the unity that seemed to be so present in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s amongst all these groups at anti-war, you do not see it anymore. You see a protest and you do not see very many. They are kind of become, one of the criticisms of the movement groups is that they have become so special interest, and that is conservative. The special interest groups have taken over. But it is a legitimate criticism even amongst many liberals, because if you have a women's movement and you have a protest, you do not see the gay and lesbian groups there. You do not see the anti, I mean, there is no unity anymore. I am not sure if that is just me seeing this or whether you see it as well. I do not know.
NC:
Well, I think that right now that was trying to happen. And I have a friend who is right now putting together a big protest for October. She got the permit for the location before she knew what it was going to be. She just graduated from UCLA and she is into that community organizing and things like that. Yeah. She is bringing, what she is doing is she is going to be in Sacramento in October, and she is trying to bring together exactly that, a coalition of all these groups who need to be heard. And so, it is the gay and lesbian. They have all these initials, GLG, LD, LV. I know she has got all of those. She has got every possible fact, and she is trying to bring them together under one roof. But I think that one of the reasons, what you mentioned, one of the reasons that might be a problem is that there are not these individual personalities who can bring attention to it all. There used to be an Abbie and there was a sign. I mean, you go to the World Trade thing in Canada or wherever it is, and you see a bunch of kids in the street breaking windows. But you do not have a sense of who are these people? How can I relate to them? Are they me? They are just nobody.
SM:
I know that close with this. I know that when Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, when I heard, he lived over in Bucks County. And I remember the article that was written about when they found him, that he was on his bed. He had written a note saying that no one was listening to me anymore and that he only had $2000 in the bank or something like that, because he had given all his money away. I almost cried when I heard it because the fact that. I almost cried when I heard it because of the fact that I did not know him. I had seen him so many times. There were times when... And I knew a lot of people did not like him and what he represented, but when I saw him on the Phil Donahue show, when I lived in California, when he came out of hiding, and he knew he was going to have to go to jail, and he had changed his nose and he had plastic surgery, and he had been working on issues behind the scenes under another name to save a river.
NC:
Right.
SM:
You knew this man. It was more than just the theatrics, it was the substance.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
And people that I have interviewed, beyond Paul had told me that, "How can you not really? How do you dislike him?" People disliked Jerry Ruben. They disliked him.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Because they thought he had a mean streak in him. And he did a scene on the Phil Donahue show that just about embarrassed, but they hit the Yippies and I [inaudible] if you Phil Donahue, but he is so darn protected. I do not know, but he kind of really made Phil Donahue look terrible, and it is on YouTube. But Abby Hoffman never would have done that. He never would have been respectful, but I am just sad that he died feeling that way if there was truth that no one is listening anymore. Because you know something, Abby? I was listening.
NC:
Oh, bless your heart.
SM:
See, and what some of the regrets is never getting to meet some of the people that you and others are talking about, because they would have been my friends.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And both conservatives and liberals, now. I have worked with all of them in the university environment, so people that know me know I am pretty fair. And I just like people who stand for something, people who are not... It is like Teddy Roosevelt said, people who are not afraid to go into the arena of life, knowing that when you go into that arena of life, you are going to add enemies and friends. But even though if you want to live in a world where you are not vulnerable and you do not want to be hurt, then you will never help other people in this world. So, I do not know how I got on this tangent here, but...
NC:
I am glad you told me.
SM:
Yeah. Well, it is important because I am not going to let the interviews that I have of some people, and it is honest and true when they just go past the Yippies and the other things. I am not going to let that happen on any group and any entity because this is about what people think about them. The yippies were much more than just a theatrical group trying to raise hell. So anyways.
NC:
Wow. I am impressed. This is going to be great.
SM:
Well, I will be staying in touch with you. If you can think of any people, be even yourself that even Paul does not know about that would be good for interviews. Ron Doss, I thought he had a stroke and could not talk, but people like that. I am interviewing Robert. J. Lifton. I do not know if you have heard of him.
NC:
Robert. J. Lifton, this name...
SM:
The professor at Harvard who talked about the Vietnam Vets and post-traumatic stress disorder.
NC:
Right.
SM:
Well, I am interviewing him. He is 86 years old and...
NC:
Oh, beautiful.
SM:
And he is retired. But I want to interview him because he wrote a book on the Holocaust. He wrote a book on the Vietnam Veterans. He wrote Upon Man's Inhumanity, the Man. It is more of a psychological, so I am not only going to talk about Vietnam vets, I am going to talk about the effect that it had on the other side. Did you see the anti-war people or the people that were so passionate on the other side, the effects that it may have affect them mentally as well. And I am asking questions and I am never going to be able to ask any other person but him.
NC:
Right.
SM:
So I got an interview with him on the 29th up in... And then I am going to interview Jerry Lemke, the professor at Holy Cross when I am up there and he's the guy, the real spitting image, which is the person that said that the story about people spitting on Vietnam vets is totally a myth.
NC:
That is right.
SM:
And so, I am interviewing him, and then I just found out today that Alan Wolf from Boston College, a great professor up there, philosopher, religious professor, is agreed to be interviewed because I want him to address the issues of morality and ethics within the generation. Of course, he has written a lot about it, and so I want him to talk about the effect this has had from his perspective. So, everybody has got their unique angle and anyways.
NC:
Great. Great-great, great.
SM:
Well...
NC:
Thank you for including me. It is fascinating and fun.
SM:
Yes. Well, thank you for agreeing to do it and for spending so much time with me, as did Paul.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
Obviously, you are a great couple. I hope sometime when I come to the West Coast I can visit you guys because...
NC:
Okay.
SM:
After I talk with Paul and got to know him on the phone and everything, I consider him a friend, and now he is on my Facebook.
NC:
Oh.
SM:
Are you on Facebook too?
NC:
Yeah, sure.
SM:
You want to be a Facebook friend?
NC:
Absolutely.
SM:
I only have about 80 and...
NC:
Okay.
SM:
I am a very, I do not, and just some of my former students and then some former professional people, and so it has been great talking to you.
NC:
Same here.
SM:
And you have a great day.
NC:
Okay. You too.
SM:
And say hi to Paul.
NC:
Okay, I will.
SM:
Bye.
NC:
Okay, bye-bye.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Nancy Cain
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Cain, Nancy (Television producer) ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews
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Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show <em>The 1990s</em> and the author of the book <em>Video Days</em>.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-02-12
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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154:16
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2017-2018
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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Date of Interview
2018-01-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David and Janet Muir
Year of Graduation
1967
Biographical Text
David is a retired philosophy professor who taught philosophy at Onondaga Community College. He owes a debt to Harpur College, which spurred his lifelong interest in philosophy. He met his wife, Janet, there. He earned his degree in philosophy from Syracuse University.
Janet James Muir attended Harpur College for one year. She supported David through his graduate studies at Syracuse University before completing her own academic journey there, earning degrees in English and journalism, as well as a master’s in English literature. She later worked as an adjunct instructor in English at Onondaga Community College. They
continue to reside in the Syracuse area.
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Vietnam War; Harpur College – Alumni living in Marcellus, New York; Harpur College – Alumni in Higher Education - Spouses of Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Former Harpur students in higher education; Harpur College – Former Harpur students living in Marcellus, NY
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
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Transcription
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: David and Janet Muir
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 12 January 2018
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:01
Okay, so David, please tell me your name, your full name, your birth date, our relationship, and where we are.
DM: 00:13
My name is David Muir. I was born in 1945 April-April 13--the day after Roosevelt died.
IG: 00:29
The day? Excuse me.
DM: 00:30
The day after FDR died.
IG: 00:32
Yes-yes.
DM: 00:33
Died April 12. So I know, I know exactly what the headlines were in every paper in the country on the day of my birth. [laughs] And we are in my home, which is in Marcellus, New York, Dunbar Woods Road.
IG: 00:52
Okay, very good. Do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Okay, all right, so tell me a little bit about your family background. What did your parents do? Where did you live?
DM: 01:13
I grew up in Western New York. My father was all his life an unskilled laborer. Worked in various jobs throughout his life. My mother was a homemaker when I was first born. She went back to school to Buffalo State Teachers College, got a teaching degree, and taught second grade after that. And so I was not the first one to go to college, but my middle brother, I am one of three boys. My middle brother, Richard, also went to college. He went to Buffalo State and got a degree in Art Education. My youngest brother Tim decided not to attend college after thinking he was going to go to Harpur College as well, but he-
IG: 02:20
Thinking what?
DM: 02:21
He was going to go to Harpur College.
IG: 02:23
I see.
DM: 02:23
But did not.
IG: 02:24
But you-you did.
DM: 02:25
I-I did, and so-so uh, and I went in, you know, graduated high school in (19)63 and entered Harpur College in that fall on the trimester.
IG: 02:39
What were the expectations of you and your family in terms of education? Did they encourage you to go to college?
DM: 02:52
Yeah, it was understood- my brother, my youngest brother, not going to college was the exception. It was understood all the way through that-that we were going to college. My- I went to high school, and that had homogeneous grouping they had actually pioneered at Kenmore. The Kenmore system had pioneered homogeneous grouping, so that we had blue circle groups, which were the students who were thought to be most advanced, were given more advanced instruction, and I was part of the blue circle group from the time I was in junior high right up through senior high. So, in my expedition, I was surrounded by students, all of whom had the expectation that we were all going to college. And it varied, you know, what their backgrounds were, whether their parents had gone to school. But I did grow up in, you know, in Kenmore, in the school system I was in, and in the particular classes I had, that was everybody's expectation as we were going to college.
IG: 04:15
And so why did you decide on Harpur College? Was this your first choice? Or how many other colleges did you apply to?
DM: 04:25
I ended up only applying to Harpur. Dean Porter came to Kenmore at Ken-Kenmore West, it was and they had divided into two different high schools. So he came to Kenmore West, where I was going to school, and it was a college night, and I talked to him, and he was tremendously enthusiastic about Harpur College. He was a tremendous sales salesperson for the, for this school. And I had some-some literature about it, and checked on it, and I just decided from that time on, that would have been November of (19)62, November of my senior year, that that is where I was going to go. And uh-
IG: 05:17
What-what do you remember? What reputation did Harpur College have at the time?
DM: 05:25
It was, I think, just building a reputation. But what-what it did have was a very low student-faculty ratio. It had a very high percentage of PhDs on the faculty already, and number of those PhDs were very young. So it- if you read about it, it was impressive. But the joke when we were there is, you know, you would say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harpur," "Harvard?" "No-no. Harpur," but the joke was, yeah, but in 20 years, somebody's going to say, "Where do you go to school?" "Harvard." "Harpur?" "No-no, Harvard." [laughs]
IG: 06:03
So what reputation did Harpur College have at the time?
DM: 06:08
Just building? I think it had a good reputation. It was the first liberal arts college in-in the state of New York, and I think because there was lots of money going into this. And the Rockefeller years, as I say it-it did not have a reputation that outside of probably New York State, many people would have recognized it, but-but as I say it was, it was building a reputation.
IG: 06:40
It was building a reputation. And what did you, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study?
DM: 06:49
Well, yes and no, I-I was sure that I was going to study philosophy, but I did not have a really clear idea what that meant, but that is what I ended up doing. I majored in philosophy and then went on from there to dig it, came up here to Syracuse, and got a master's and PhD in philosophy. So.
IG: 07:13
From Syracuse in philosophy.
DM: 07:15
Yeah, so-so what I had thought I was going to do turned out to be what I did do. So I guess, guess in a sense, and guess in a sense, I had, I had a clear idea of what I thought I wanted to do, and then I had to sort of discover that it really was what I wanted to do.
IG: 07:33
And so when you first arrived on campus, I mean, what- how did it strike you? Was it-it-it [crosstalk] a huge difference from the environment that you were used to?
DM: 07:49
Well, the major difference was coming from upstate New York, the percentage of downstairs who were there. That was a huge difference. The first time I visited, it was a sea of mud, and you walked on planks because they were just finishing the dorm, a set of dorms that we saw. So it-it was not extremely impressive in that way, when I got to campus and-and the- those dormitories had been completed, it was, I guess, it was an atmosphere somewhat similar to what I was used to in high school, because, because of the homogeneous grouping, I was used to being surrounded by other students who were highly motivated. And there was a whole college of them. Our incoming graduating average of the class I came in with was somewhere around 63, or excuse me, 93 in (19)63, but it was somewhere around 90-93 was the incoming average. You had a number of people, the people who did not like being at college were people who were very bright. Wanted to go to Ivy League schools. Some of them had gotten in but could not afford them because they did not get financial aid, and they were unhappy because they thought that if they were there, their lives would be perfect. And then there were a whole lot of us who were perfectly happy.
IG: 09:24
Did you find any differences between yourself and the students from downstate? Did you think that there were any cultural differences or...?
DM: 09:38
Not-not. No, yeah.
IG: 09:41
I mean, downstream, New York City, and Long Island.
DM: 09:43
Well, one of the, one of the things was that a number of them were from the, cannot remember, what is the PS program, something which meant they graduated at the age of 16. So there were a number of-of not-not the ones from Long Island, but a number of the people from the city were young, but these were people who became friends right away, as far as--well, still, we were just together at New Year's time with friends from Harpur who have been friends ever since. Of those friends, let us see two from Long Island and the rest from the city. Well, no and one from upstate, one other actually from Syracuse, but met him in Binghamton.
IG: 10:46
So how so you have this tight-knit circle of friends that you have kept throughout-
DM: 10:51
Oh yeah-yeah.
IG: 10:52
-your life, actually.
DM: 10:54
Oh yeah, yes, from, yeah, there-there-there were only, let us see, eight of us got together this time because one person who comes regularly had knee surgery, lives down in New Jersey. His wife is not a Harpur grad, and Janet is not a Harpur grad, but, but, but we met. She was, she was a freshman, the same time I was, so we entered together. [Janet speaks in the background]
IG: 11:27
What was that meeting like?
Speaker 1 11:30
Well, I think we met first because we met her roommate, who was at the-
IG: 11:37
Reception, yeah.
DM: 11:38
The reception, Bev Gross, but Bev Gross came bursting back into their-their dorm room and said, I met somebody else from Buffalo, as if, is it- that was the rarest thing in the world? Not only was there one person, but she had met two others [laughter] at the cafeteria. Uh, but we met, I think the-the first thing was Patty's Wake, which was the introductory party that started off the-the semester back then.
IG: 12:17
Oh, tell me about that. Because this is a rich this-this is, you know, something that I really do not know.
DM: 12:24
Oh, Patty's Wake we got, we got on buses-buses and went in. Oh, I am trying to remember the name of the bar. It was-
JM: 12:31
Sharkies.
DM: 12:32
No-no. Was not Sharkies. No. Sharkies was a, was a good place. This was a, this was a dive, but it was on the bus route, and so he and so all the freshmen would go. The-the story of Paddy was that Patty died because he studied too hard and-and never had any fun, and finally he just wore away. So this was so in celebration of Patty's Wake. This was the back then, the annual first-first thing that freshmen went off campus to do was go off and-and drink. What was it? 25-cent drafts or something like that?
IG: 13:10
And did it? Did it happen around St Patrick's Day or...?
DM: 13:15
No-no, this was, this was in the first this was in the first week of being here.
IG: 13:15
Oh, semester, I see.
DM: 13:17
Very beginning of the semester, probably orientation week. I do not know it was, it was, yeah, this was the first thing and all, yeah. So the freshmen went off [inaudible], so we met there. And-and then we have, we have been together forever since.
JM: 13:37
We actually met in Whitney dorm.
DM: 13:38
Okay, did we meet?
JM: 13:39
[inaudible] came in and said-
DM: 13:40
Oh my god, did she, did she introduce-
JM: 13:42
The dining hall [inaudible]
DM: 13:44
Okay, she introduced, yeah, because I had thought we had, because-because that was the first, and Patty's Wake was the very first week. Yeah. So anyway, that was so you drank a lot of cheap beer. And everybody you know, all the freshmen overdrank, and the 16-year-old managed to get in somehow, and even though they were illegal. But it was 18. Was the drinking age back then?
JM: 14:07
It was a dry campus.
DM: 14:09
Yeah-yeah. It was. It was a dry campus because the student government kept being told that it was a state rule that you could not have a pub on campus. You could not have alcohol on campus, and then, oh, somewhere second or third year that I was there, some young, some of the-the student government leaders, went to Albany and found out there was not any such rule, and that began the process of bringing the pub onto campus. We mean, there is no rule we cannot do this.
IG: 14:49
Janet is on the conversation, which is a wonderful thing. Janet, would you mind introducing yourself so we would please tell us. your name, your birth date, and you know what your affiliation with Binghamton is, well, with Harpur College.
JM: 15:09
[inaudible] Janet, actually James Muir. James is my maiden name. I was born on March 30, 1946. I went to Harpur, not as my first choice, again for financial reasons. I was not admitted in the fall semester, I- but I was put on a waiting list, and I could go in the summer ahead, if I wanted to, but I did not have, you know, the highest average from high school. I went to a very small school, smaller graduating class than David did. So I was a bit overwhelmed, I would say, by, you know, the whole size and atmosphere at Harpur. But what was fun was we were in the Co-Ed dorm, and at that time, they had the curfews, and so, you know, it was unusual to be able to meet, you know, David and the others, and we had friends in the dorm that would do things as a group, and that was really fun. That was really a nice thing to do, but at that time, they were switching to the trimester, and the course load was very heavy, so I found it overwhelming, which is why I did not stay past the first year.
IG: 16:44
Past the first year.
JM: 16:44
Yeah-yeah.
IG: 16:45
Okay. And where are you from?
JM: 16:49
We are from Eastern Elmo, New York, Western New York. David is from the north of the city, and I am from the south,
IG: 16:56
I see, I see.
JM: 16:57
So we had to go to Binghamton to meet.
IG: 17:02
So, where did you continue your education?
JM: 17:04
Well, when I went back home, worked at Fisher Price toy company, and David and I were married when I was 19, and he was 20. He was still at Harpur, just finishing.
DM: 17:19
And I still had a year to still had two semesters to go.
JM: 17:22
Right. So we lived in Johnson City, was it, Floral Avenue? We had an apartment there. I worked at Endicott Johnson while he went to school.
DM: 17:35
And then we came up here. I continued graduate school. She worked at Upstate Medical and then decided she wanted to go back to school.
IG: 17:45
So what-what did you do?
JM: 17:47
I went down at a community college. I graduated from there, and then I transferred into Syracuse University, and I have a master's in English literature, an undergrad degree in English literature and journalism.
DM: 18:01
Oh, so you remember [crosstalk]
JM: 18:04
It took me about 10 years to get back.
IG: 18:06
I mean, you were supporting a husband, right?
JM: 18:08
Yeah. And when he graduated, I said, “Okay, it is my turn now.”
IG: 18:14
And so-so what did you, what did you do in your working life? You were uh-
JM: 18:19
I worked in the offices Medicare at Upstate Medical. I worked in business offices at both Fisher Price and Endicott-Johnson. Actually, I started at Fisher Price on the assembly line, and-and I said to myself, I do not want to be a lifer putting these together. So I took a test for the computer. What do I want to say skills which I did not have? I mean, nobody did at that time, but they brought me into the office, and I worked in their office after that. So that started me in the office.
IG: 19:00
I see, I see. Well, so as-as married students, you had a completely different perspective on-
DM: 19:11
Yeah, we-
IG: 19:11
-the college.
DM: 19:13
Yeah. Well, let us see. We arrived in the fall of (19)63 November, because that was the second trimester. Excuse me, and I went home to Buffalo the first summer. And then when I came back, I stayed right straight through until I had finished. So I actually I am commencement class of (19)67, but I finished my degree at the end of October (19)66, so I was back for my-my commencement in (19)67, but so for the last two trimesters. Janet and I lived on Floral Avenue off campus, but we still had, you know, our friends came over to our house. [laughs]
IG: 20:17
So it was, it was a kind of seamless transition for you to, you know, move from dormitory life to your own apartment.
DM: 20:29
Yeah-yeah. It was not, I do not remember any anything in terms of-of any kind of special adjustment. The only thing that was really tough was I had the ideal senior schedule. No class started before noon, but I had to drop Janet off. I- we had to be up before six o'clock because Janet started work at Endicott Johnson. I think it was something like 7:30, and I had to drive her to Endicott-Johnson, drop her off, drive over to campus, get there about eight o'clock, and not have any classes until noon.
JM: 21:05
It is time to study.
DM: 21:07
And-and because most of my friends were either seniors or juniors, they were still asleep at eight. And so I would go down into the common room at Whitney and-and study or-or nap.
IG: 21:25
I am curious, how did you conduct your courtship leading to a marriage at a college with curfews, especially for women?
DM: 21:36
Yes, well, on-on her-her birthday that-that spring, one of our friends came back with a car for the second semester, the only car among all of us. Alan Gurwitz and my mother had had walking pneumonia when I was in high school, and with three boys, we had to take over doing her chores for a summer. And my chore at that time was ironing, and so I had learned to iron, and back then, you did not have wrinkle-free shirts. And so I offered to iron five shirts for Alan if he would lend me the car for Janet's birthday. He told me afterwards, if I would told him one shirt, he would have given me the car. Five shirts, he was in heaven. So I ironed five shirts for him, and got the car, and we went off, had dinner, and then went to see Lawrence of Arabia, which is too long a film.
IG: 22:51
Yes.
DM: 22:51
Because this was a weekend, and her curfew was not 10:30, which it was during the week, but noon, excuse me, noon. Yeah, midnight, midnight. And so, yeah, noon, [laughter] midnight, and we got, we got to-to the intermission in Lawrence of Arabia, looked at the at the time and thought, there was no way in the world we were going to have a 15- or 20-minute intermission. Watch the whole second half and get back to make curfew. So I do not think Janet ever saw the second half of Lawrence of Arabia for another 15 years, nor did I, but no we- courting, I think is fairly easy on a college campus. If you have a close relationship, you see every you see each other every day.
JM: 23:45
Yeah.
DM: 23:45
So for that first year, and by the end of the first year, we were pretty much committed to each other. Then we lived in Western New York, so when I went home for that-that summer, Janet was on the south side, I was on the north side, but I was back and forth. You know, all the time I worked at a wholesale florist, which is where my father was working. At that time, he was a salesman for a wholesale florist, and I got a job there, and they would throw out flowers that were beginning to turn a little bit on the wholesale level, which meant that they were still really good, because they had not even gone to retail yet. And so all that summer Janet had roses, probably-
DM: 24:34
-because they would throw out sprigs. The guy who handled the orchids, as soon as there was one spot on one of the orchids, and they come in sprigs, you know, as soon as you saw one brown spot, they would go out. And we were not supposed to pick them up, but I was not going to let these gorgeous orchids lie in the garbage. So I would pick them up and [inaudible], so she would get sprigs of orchids for that in that summer.
JM: 24:35
And orchids. That convinced me. I married this guy. [laughs]
IG: 24:40
That is lovely.
JM: 24:44
Yeah.
DM: 25:02
So-so, and then I went back to school.
JM: 25:05
But also because in Whitney, we played ping pong all the time. We socialized all the time because it was a co-ed dorm.
DM: 25:13
Yeah-yeah. The atmosphere, the atmosphere in Whitney, was very different. And of course, this was a different era. You know the- this was a radical notion of having one wing male and one wing female. I mean that, and that was as far as it went. At 10:30, you had the common areas were separated. The men had the upstairs, the women had the downstairs. All of, all the vending machines were downstairs. So people would call down if they would hear one of the women downstairs call down, throw down money, and they would get, they would get things from the vending machines and throw them back up. But- and the other interesting thing is that when the 10:30 curfew occurred, a bunch of us, one-one night, sat down, and one of me said, "Okay," right, you know, "Why-why do the women, why do the women have a curfew," right? And you know, what would we think if we had a curfew? So-so remember, this was the (19)60s, when things were being challenged. And of course, by the time we were done-
JM: 26:24
[inaudible] early (19)60s.
DM: 26:25
This is the early (19)60s. This is (19)63.
JM: 26:28
(19)63-(19)64.
DM: 26:28
And so this is when things are just beginning to be challenged. But-but tremendous change. By the time the- a number of our good friends left. They were in Co-Ed suites, in-in-in, what the-the?
JM: 26:50
Hinman [inaudible]
DM: 26:52
Yeah, the Hinman, the com- the complex is over there.
JM: 26:56
Yeah.
DM: 26:56
I mean, when we were there, they none of the, none of this was well-
JM: 26:59
And, you know, because of the separate wings, we would have open houses, and you would be able to visit the others' rooms.
IG: 27:03
Right.
JM: 27:03
Leaving the door open, leaving, what, three-
DM: 27:12
Three feet on the floor and a door open.
IG: 27:14
So I am, I am interested, how did do you remember challenging any of these rules, or questioning these notions about segregating the sexes? Um, I mean-
DM: 27:26
Not there were not any, there were not any major-
IG: 27:28
Your-your close friends.
DM: 27:30
We talked about it. I do not think there were any. We did not get involved in any actual protests of it that I recall
JM: 27:38
How about the boards? They would, they call them, the student-
DM: 27:44
Judicial Board?
JM: 27:45
Judicial Board to deal with-
DM: 27:48
Yeah, people who buy violated curfew, yeah. We were the only dorm that had males on the on that-that panel, because, in every, in every yeah-
JM: 28:01
[inaudible] feeling that this was not fair.
DM: 28:03
Yeah, you try to be. Yeah. because I served on it for-for a semester. We had friends who served on it.
IG: 28:11
So if you had so the judicial board that you served on, how would the complaints or escalate? Who would hear them? What impact would that have?
DM: 28:25
Yeah. Mostly it was, yeah. Mostly, it was a violation of curfew, and you just had to decide. And there were penalties, you know, you had to decide, and whether there was a legitimate excuse, right?
JM: 28:36
[inaudible] campus, you would be restricted.
DM: 28:39
Yeah, and the- so it was, you know, that I think at that point we thought that it was ridiculous, but at that point we were not ready to-to start protesting. I think that came about just sort of naturally, as I say, by the time we were finishing up, the campus situation had changed tremendously from-from what it was, but it did. It did create for us a unique atmosphere unlike any of the other dorms. Because we did, it was just a group of friends, and somebody say, you know, tired of studying, you would walk down to one of the common rooms, say, "Anybody interested in going to see a ball game?" If there happened to be a ball game that, right? You know, basketball game, we go down and-and together, and it would just be whoever was there. And when we got a little bit older, and people, more people, had cars, the place we would go, Oh, I almost had the name of the, of the dive, but I cannot remember, we go to Sharkies. The fact that is where we did not go to the dinner that was sponsored at the reunion. The group of us who were there went to Sharkies because that was, that was the place we-we would go to speedies.
Third speaker 29:55
I have a question related to that. So were there any women, like in your dorm that rebelled against this idea and took an initiative?
DM: 30:10
Not that I recall, I think that, I think there were some complaints about it, but at this point, this was pretty much what the practices were everywhere, you know, was not, it was not, it was not as, yeah, it was not as, yeah, it was not as if it this was something unique to Harpur, you know, I kind of understand. So I do not remember any-any kind of organized protest. I just remember that, you know, people are beginning to question it, and-
JM: 30:42
It was more restrictive than what I had at home.
DM: 30:45
Yeah-yeah. That was something else saying, [crosstalk] yeah-yeah-yeah. A lot, a lot of- for some of the 16-year-olds out of the city, it was different, I think.
IG: 30:57
How so?
DM: 30:58
Well, because they were 16 years old, although I mean, I have a lot of city friends, and city friends are sophisticated in some ways, and parochial in others.
IG: 31:08
How so?
DM: 31:10
Well, because they-they are exposed to-to culture in the city of a rich kind. I mean, New York is one of the greatest cities in the world. So you are exposed to-to a richness of culture that you just do not have in certainly any other city in New York State, and in few cities in the world that you can match that. So they have that. But by the same token, a lot of them just know New York City. [crosstalk] So, yeah, so it is, you know. So, it is you know that there was an expansion of their world to be in upstate New York.
JM: 31:51
We took some friends to Western New York, to our good friends' farm, dairy farm, and they were like, "Cows. Wow!" Me, "This is where milk comes from."
IG: 32:08
I am curious about the youth movement that was kind of growing in momentum in around that time, (19)63-(19)64. Did it have any influence on you? You know, rock and roll was beginning, um, or...?
DM: 32:30
Well, the-the actually-
IG: 32:33
Sexual freedoms, drugs, that was all in the air, that was kind of filtering through-
JM: 32:38
And Vietnam.
IG: 32:40
-and Vietnam, which I will [inaudible]. Absolutely.
DM: 32:45
The theme of our orientation, which was chosen by the upperclassmen who ran the program, was all the orientation was completely run by students, as I recall it, but their theme was, do not think that at your age, you have to now know what you are going to do for the rest of your life. Take your time. If you know who says you have to be done in four years, you can take as much time as you want, take a take a semester off, take a year off. Do right! If you are not sure, find out what you want to do. And three years later, you could not do that without finding yourself in Vietnam. So it was a tremendous- that was, that was one of the biggest changes, was that, all right, I mean, the-the war in (19)63 was-was not anything yet that had had really was affecting people. Yeah, I had a good colleague who graduated from West Point and was over there as an advisor in the early days of Vietnam. But I-when we went on the campus, that was not an issue. It became an issue. As I said, it became an issue of, I was reclassified as A three times, but never went.
IG: 34:09
I am sorry.
DM: 34:10
I was reclassified one A, which, right, which meant immediately draft eligible three times, but I was never drafted. I was as I finished up at Harpur in the fall of (19)66, and I was immediately reclassified one A I challenged that I was going to challenge it as an objector because I did not agree. I did not think we should be in Vietnam. Changed that to arguing that I was class of (19)66, not class of (19)67, because even though it was my commencement class, and if you were (19)66 on and you were accepted to grad school, you continued to get a student deferment, and my draft board accepted that argument. And so I was defied that gave me my deferment until I finished grad- graduate, grad school. And then I forget how it came that it was the three times, but-but by the time I finally was draft eligible, they had had the lottery system, and they never got to my number. They were nowhere near getting to my number.
IG: 35:27
I am sorry-
DM: 35:28
They never got anywhere near my number. They- the war was winding down. Then I finished my graduate work in (19)71, right? And so I never had to. I-I had to face it in the sense that I went through a I went through a physical in Buffalo. I got called for a physical. Went through a whole physical.
JM: 35:50
And a lot of soul searching.
DM: 35:52
Oh yeah, because I did not, because I did not, I had pretty much decided I would not, I would not serve in the war, because I did not think that it was a war that we should have been in. And so-
IG: 36:05
Was that, was that a common feeling among your friends?
DM: 36:09
Yes.
IG: 36:11
On campus?
DM: 36:12
Among the friends that we were just with or get together with regularly, two of them were-were graduates of-of (19)66 and-and they got their-their deferments and managed not to go. One of them got his medical degree and served in the Public Health Service out in Arizona with the Native Americans. But of-of those groups, one way or another, none of us ever ended up going to Vietnam. Another one was a conscientious objector, but a racist and an atheist, and his draft board rejected it because he did not have a religious affiliation. He refused. He refused induction. Was a fugitive from justice for two and a half years, without them ever pursuing him. He- his first wife, and he decided on a divorce because she, although she agreed with him, she did not want to, you know, continue that; it was an amicable divorce. But they were, you know, they were also a Harpur couple. He continued on his own. He ended up in, I think it was in Philadelphia, at a Quaker protest, a sit-down protest, and when they checked his record and found out, all of a sudden, they put cuffs on him. Off he went. He had to go to, but when his case came up, the judge looked at it and said, "This is the most arbitrary decision I have ever seen by a draft board," because he had, he had documentation of his conscientious objective status, and they just rejected it because he had no religious affiliation. So after all of that right, he was, he was free, and the case was dismissed. But all of us, all of us, that was, I think, the-the largest issue, and I- none of us favored the war, and all of us, through good fortune, were able to avoid service.
IG: 38:32
And yet you grew, you probably experienced a very pervasive sense of anxiety, and that that really had an impact on your personal lives.
DM: 38:45
Yeah, that, yeah. Once I once I was given the, once my draft board accepted my status, as long as I was in graduate school, my anxiety, well, I actually was not, I think I got reclassified as I when I completed my master's, but they immediately reversed that on the basis that I was continuing the PhD program, that there was no, there was no break in my- in my graduate school.
IG: 39:16
Right.
DM: 39:16
So I had to, I had the master's degree, but it was, it was continuous graduate school, and so that was, I think, the second time. But that did not, that did not upset me, because at that point, I think I pretty much knew that it would be automatic, that I could write, that I could get it. So the most tension we had was when I was first reclassified, and we were-
IG: 39:40
At Harpur College?
DM: 39:41
We had just finished Harpur College. Actually, we were up here in Syracuse, because I, and I cannot remember was-was the reclassification come when-
JM: 39:58
I think it must have been up here in Syracuse.
DM: 40:03
Yes, it had. Yeah.
JM: 40:03
Because we were here in (19)67.
DM: 40:03
Yeah, but, yeah, but-but as soon as I, as soon as I graduated in (19)66, so it may have been, it may have been, it may have been November. It may have been November, December. I think it was November or December. And we were still down in Binghamton, yeah, was right after out of Harpur, we were still living in Floral Avenue that-that-that was the, that was the greatest tension for those two months.
IG: 40:22
So, did you feel any support from your professors? Did they shelter you somehow? Did they encourage you to stay in school and pursue your graduate degrees to avoid the draft? Did you feel that kind of involvement from faculty or...?
DM: 40:41
When okay at Harpur, it, I do not remember it being an issue within my classes at Harpur. It was an issue when I was in graduate school here, and in talking to a person who was the chair of the department, he sort of, he did not really agree with me, but he did not say outright that. He did not. He did it in a sort of backhanded way. But so in that one instance,
JM: 40:42
But that was in Syracuse.
DM: 41:14
Yeah, but at Harpur, I do not, I do not remember being involved again. I was off campus, you know, from the time we were married. And I do not remember any- anything. On campus itself, except that the general atmosphere, pretty much of almost everyone I knew, was that the war was a mistake. So-so that I think that pretty much predominated. I do not know that we knew people who-who really were in favor of the of the war. Certainly, none of our close friends were.
IG: 42:12
And do you suspect the-the faculty?
DM: 42:16
My suspicion would- was that the faculty was, for the most part, not pro-war either.
IG: 42:22
What do you remember about- were there any influential professors that you remember from Harpur College and that they took a personal interest in you and your career?
DM: 42:35
Yeah, the very first philosophy course I took, still not really understanding fully what philosophy was-was-was from, and by the name of C. Wade Savage, yes, because he went by Wade. And by the- my first philosophy paper, I got a D minus, minus. He did not fail me, but I ended up getting an A in the course. And he wrote a really nice note at the end, saying, you know, because I had let him know that, you know, that this was, you know, this is something that I really thought I wanted to pursue, and I had other people were writing philosophy papers- were coming and talking to me and writing their papers. And I-I started out very poorly, but he wrote me an encouraging note. And then I, there were two others that I took most of my courses from somebody else, who did not use his first name. Thomas was his first name, but he went by Patterson, T. Patterson Brown, and who was and very young. Brown was published when he was an Amherst, at Amherst as an undergraduate, and I think got his PhD from the University of London at age 24-25 and was hired. And then Emilio Roma, who also was very young. So these were all people who were only six, seven, maybe eight years older than I was, who were there, and I got encouragement. In fact, Roma had what I thought was the ideal life. He lived with his wife in a farmhouse across the border in Pennsylvania, because I did my senior thesis with him, and-and I was finishing up over the summer semester, and he was not teaching the summer semester, so I-I drove to his house to go over, go over it with him. And he had two absolutely beautiful children living in this rural setting, you know, as a professor of philosophy, and I thought, what a wonderful world, and he died young. I cannot remember now how many years ago, but I remember seeing a notice that-
IG: 45:08
Do you think he might have been a role model for you, that-
DM: 45:14
I certainly-certainly, the he had. What for me was an ideal life, you know, as because, as a philosopher, if you do not teach, they do not hire many industrial philosophers. [laughter] So-so-so yeah, so, so he had, yeah, and I got encouragement from him. I got encouragement from Brown. I took a couple of courses with Brown where there were only junior level. There were only four or five of us in the class, so it was a lot of one-on-one discussion. He was the one who had me go to Syracuse. Brown encouraged me to go on to Syracuse because I was, I was interested at that time in philosophy of religion, but at that time, philosophy of religion was sort of dying out. And he said, "Yeah, well, you got Austin at-at Michigan," but he said, "I would not really go there." He said, "Better go someplace that has a really solid foundation in the history of philosophy. You are better off building on that, and then you can specialize later." And he said, "Syracuse has a, has a good program." So I was accepted into three different programs, but because I was finishing in the beginning of November, nobody had money, right? Everybody said, “No, you can apply, but you are not going to be able to get financial assistance until the following fall.” And so one of the three places I was skeptic to was San Diego, University of California in San Diego, North Carolina, Chapel Hill and Syracuse, all accepted me. All said, you know, you can apply for financial aid, but we are not going to have any available. So-
JM: 47:18
Neither one of us came from wealthy families [crosstalk]
DM: 47:21
So we were not going to go all the way out. We were not going to relocate that far without any guarantee. So we came up here to Syracuse, and I was on finance. I had a NEA fellowship, and I had a, I got a Woodrow Wilson dissertation fellowship, so I finished without having to pay a cent in-in tuition, except for the first semester, that I had to go in and back then, that was affordable.
IG: 47:50
Well, I have this question, actually two questions. But first of all, what was the emphasis of the philosophy department at Harpur College of the time? Did it have a focus on the philosophy of religion, or what kind of philosophy were you studying?
DM: 48:12
I was, I was taking a smattering of courses. I do not know that I thought of them as having any emphasis, mainly because, remember, there was no, there were no grad programs. And if you have a program in philosophy, it was geared for graduate programs. They were building one. In fact, the joke used to be retired studying, let us, let us go over the Esplanade and look for the graduate student. I do not remember how many. I remember only one ever being identified. So, you know, they were just building grad programs. So Harpur was pretty much a, you know, the range of courses, and I think, if you were majoring in philosophy, they expected you to take a range, and you might find something that you were mostly interested in. I did- ended up in esthetics with Roma. Brown taught philosophy or religion, and as I said, he sort of discouraged me from pursuing that. But again, saying that, rather than pursue anything immediately, you know, pursue-pursue, general background history of philosophy, because that gives you a foundation to go any-any direction you want.
IG: 49:30
You had a very important experience in your first philosophy class, from you know, you were- you did poorly on your first test, and then you completed it with flying colors. What do you think what changed you, and what did you learn from that first course? Do you recall it at all?
DM: 49:55
Well, it was, it was, I think that it was simply a matter of-of focusing differently, on-on the issue. I cannot even remember exactly what I had done wrong in the in the first one, that was such a disaster. But again, just, I think, I think, being in class, engaging in the classroom discussions. I think getting encouragement through the give and take within the classroom is what probably brought me to, you know, to doing better.
IG: 50:36
You said, you said, when you first came to Harpur, you had no understanding of what philosophy was, but you wanted to study it. What did you learn in that first class about philosophy? Why did it open-
DM: 50:52
Well, I think that it involved [crosstalk], it involved critical thinking about important human questions. That is, that is because I spent my-my career teaching and teaching on a community college level. So I was teaching freshmen and sophomores, and so what I did for my whole career as a teacher of philosophy was to focus on how to develop critical thinking skills and apply those to the questions that human beings find-find most important. So I think that became my-my emphasis from the time I you know, from-from Harpur College on and right-right through my professional career.
JM: 50:53
Excuse me, but your classes, what was the class size? And you are talking about the give and take of discussion-
DM: 50:53
Yeah.
JM: 50:53
-and that depends. I mean, I remember the student ratio was very good, right? And so your classes were very small.
DM: 51:29
Yeah. I think the biggest class I probably had in philosophy was probably no more than about 25 students, and a lot of them were-were smaller, as I said, I took several classes with-with-with Patterson Brown, that there were, you know, six, seven of us in in the class. And, of course, there you get, you know, it was, it was very-very immediate, give and take.
JM: 52:18
When you get the lecture hall experience-
DM: 52:19
Yeah, vastly, [crosstalk] different, yeah.
JM: 52:20
-different than philosophy,
DM: 52:25
But-
Speaker 4 52:27
Small classes. And did you have an occasion to discuss the ideas that you learned in class with your classmates and-
DM: 52:37
Some of it was interesting. None of, none of the close friends of mine were philosophy majors. They major in lots of different things, chem majors, bio majors. They went on-
JM: 52:49
Psychology majors-
DM: 52:50
-psychology majors-
JM: 52:51
-math majors.
DM: 52:52
Yeah. So, no, what most of my discussions were when people found they had to take a philosophy class. Friends of mine who were not into philosophy would come and talk to me about-about that, and I would- I was able to help. I think some of them
JM: 53:12
And your roommates saying, "David, you are not [inaudible].”
DM: 53:15
Oh yes, I remember there was a running joke roommates or various friends would come into the room and when I would be lying back on the on my bed, say, "Do not you ever study?" And I say, "Yeah, I am." But-
IG: 53:35
So did-
DM: 53:36
Actually, that is true, because before you write a philosophy paper, a lot of it is simply the- you know, the working out through your head, what you know, what-what-what you are going to do with it, but, but that was a running joke.
IG: 53:50
So, do you credit your professors at Harpur College in really giving you the foundation for your future career?
DM: 54:01
Oh, yeah-yeah. I-I thought I had a wonderful education. I think all of the good friends that we have all considered that they had a really solid-solid foundation from-from Harpur College. I think almost all of us are proud to be graduates of Harpur College. By the way, one of, one of the people who was there when I was there, was there when we came back for the trimester thing, Anthony Preus. I do not know if he is still there or not. Professor Preus, Professor Preus, he was in. He ancient-ancient philosophy was his-his area.
JM: 54:25
Which is one of the areas that you I went into.
DM: 54:49
Later on, yeah, but as I say there, I touched on various things. The only thing that I specialized at all in was I wrote my uh, senior thesis in esthetics. But for the rest of the time, it was just touching on lots of, lots of different periods of the history of philosophy in the different areas. You know, I took a logic course, I took an ethics course, and
Third speaker 55:12
So you were into classical thinking, classical-
DM: 55:20
Well, I have-
Third speaker 55:21
Plato?
DM: 55:23
Yeah, when I ended up doing my-my-my doctorate in-in Plato, on Plato, on Plato's esthetics, actually, so, so.
JM: 55:35
But you used the Socratic method in your teaching.
DM: 55:37
Yeah [laughter]
IG: 55:41
Did you discuss what you were learning with your wife since you were living off campus? Did you how do you remember him during this period?
JM: 55:54
I do not know. It is hard to say I remember one of the things, not while he was at Harpur, but when he was working on his dissertation, going to the beach while I was in- at work.
DM: 56:06
That was my master's thesis. [laughter] I had a, I had a summer in which I was all of my courses were paid for because I was on a fellowship, and it covered the credits for my master's thesis. And so I was registered as a full-time student for all those credits, but my task was simply to write my master's thesis, and I would drop her off at work, and I would drive to Green Lake State Park, [laughter] spread my blanket on the beach, and get out my books. [laughs] And if, if a friend of ours had not come back and needed to be driven around looking for a job, I would have actually completed it at the beach. I was- had almost written the last part.
JM: 56:57
I also typed his papers. And then when it came to his PhD, I said, "No [inaudible], I am not going to type your PhD."
IG: 57:05
So you know, were there any women in your philosophy classes?
DM: 57:15
Yes, one I remember by name Laurie Billing, because the person who was most influential in my undergraduate was Patterson Brown. And Patterson Brown was married. At the time, he divorced his wife, and he married Laurie Billing. [laughter] So yeah, and Laurie and I used to sit around and talk about because we- she took a number of courses from Brown as well as I did. So we knew each other from a number of different courses. So she and I would, you know, would talk over the material in the courses on a regular basis.
IG: 57:57
At that point, there were really no rules about professors dating their students.
Speaker 1 58:05
I think there probably were rules, but since he divorced and married her, I do not know that there was-
IG: 58:09
Yeah.
DM: 58:10
-I do not, I do not know. I do not know if that created problems. He had, he had real problems after I left. He ended up leaving without finishing a semester. And friends of ours found him in their suite, asleep on a on, a couch one-one night. So what happened with-with him? I do not know. I never got a full-full account. I think it probably was a case of a whole lot of success and pressure from too young an age, because I think he completed his PhD at London by age 24.
IG: 58:53
You completed your PhD by age-
DM: 58:55
26.
JM: 58:56
-26.
DM: 58:56
But the 20-24 is-is, you know, because he had, he had expect-
JM: 58:59
He probably had a lot of pressure.
DM: 59:00
Well, he had expectations because he published as an undergraduate.
IG: 59:08
Right.
DM: 59:09
No, so-so anyway, that that I do not know what-what happened to him after that, and I asked once, and somebody else did not know either.
IG: 59:23
Were there any international students in your philosophy classes? Do you remember any students of color?
DM: 59:32
Not there.
IG: 59:33
International from anywhere?
DM: 59:37
Yes. Well, yeah, there was from Africa. I never got to be a close friend of his. Our other friends did. Who knew him very well. He went back. He was part of political- and I am even blanking on his name. But you know, friends, yeah, you probably have because you. You have interviewed Jeff and Jan Strauss, and they were, they were close friends of his, but again, because I think he became a close friend of theirs at the time that we were off campus. And so I knew him, but very- I did not know him well as they did, and-and-
Speaker 1 1:00:21
That was the difference, I think, between when we were there and our daughter went to Harpur, and graduated from Harpur, well, from Binghamton, and she went there for the diversity, and-and I think that it built up, you know, over the years-
DM: 1:00:40
Yeah.
JM: 1:00:40
-but I do not recall it being, I mean, to us, diversity was all these Jewish friends
DM: 1:00:47
for her, for her. What was really interesting, though, is-
JM: 1:00:50
I came from a rural area that there was one Jewish family, no blacks. It was very, you know, monoculture.
DM: 1:00:57
Yeah, but my high school was interesting because even though we- I was, you know, in upstate, you know, North of Buffalo High School, and was huge, my graduating class was over 600. I went, I went to eight graduation parties as a senior, seven of them were in homes of Jewish friends. So and, you know, I was raised as a Catholic so-so going down to-to Harpur, where there was a very high percentage of Jewish students, to me, was not unusual at all, but for a lot of upstate rural New Yorkers, you know, the that-that was a difference, but-but well, and you know, and just you know, there is, there is, there are differences between upstate and downstate, but never-never, never, any that that we found troubling or bothersome, as I say, you know, these are, these are these are friends we have had ever since. And, yeah, and, and I do not ever remember any clashes of that, of that sort. Again, it was, it was the beginning of open-mindedness.
IG: 1:02:19
How about your family? How they, how do they look upon you, the philosopher, their son, the philosopher?
JM: 1:02:27
Well, my father never quite got it right. I had to constantly correct my father on it. My mother, my mother idolized PhDs, so the fact that I got one was-was something that was tremendously important to my, to my mother, so that you know that-that, I guess, was, was, of yes, as I said, of tremendous importance that my parents were in the as I went off to school, my parents were in the process of getting divorced, and that is another real good friend of ours, also from Harpur days, who lives in Larchmont. She is right across the tracks from Larchmont, but she and I formed a close bond because both of us had family tensions that we were really happy to be at Harpur because we were away from those family tensions.
DM: 1:03:34
Well, that is part of the reason we got married so young, was David did not want to go home, and I did not want to be home.
IG: 1:03:41
So you know, during your time at Harpur College, during your years, what changes did you see the campus go through, the physical campus?
DM: 1:04:00
Yeah, well, they started the building. Let us see, they built the-
JM: 1:04:03
The camps in the woods.
DM: 1:04:06
The administration tower went up. They actually, they were just building the-the ones down the hill, when we first started, when-when we were first there, there was only one dining hall. It was Newing when they, when they started the second one; most students called it brand Newing. The-the dorm complex opened, I think, the second year, which was the one by Lake Lieberman and-and my story of Lake Lieberman is different from everybody else's story about Lake Lieberman, so I do not know what the real story is, but my story about Lake Lieberman got his name because a bunch of student government people over the summer wanted to name the lake they went randomly through a list of students. Finger landed on Elliot Lieberman. He was not attending that trimester, so they called him up and paid his bus fare to come in, up, dedicated the lake to him, and then threw him in. And Lake Lieberman was just that. I do not even know if it is filled in; it is just a pond anyway, that is, that is the story I heard of how Lake Lieberman got his name, named for Elliot Lieberman, and he was a special invitation. He was a student. He just was not attending that-that semester. But you know that by the time I was in the commencement, we had friends who were in, you know, in the-the new dorm, complexes that were being built when we first started there. You know, it had the shape of the brain, and there was nothing to the- let us see, that would have been the south of the top of the brain. That was just all woods. In fact, I used to hike through that. That was, it was I started that as a, as a habit when I was in high school. I just go out for long walks as a way of relieving tension. And I would just wander off over that hill and through-through the woods, sometimes even at night, just, you know what, if it were clear enough that you could see where you are going. So-so, that is all, champion. You know, what was all wilderness now is all, is all developed. And then, yeah, and then, then we, you know, we had the-the Esplanade, which was the site every year of the stepping on the coat ceremony, which you probably, if you have interviewed other people-
IG: 1:06:46
Yes-yes.
DM: 1:06:47
-which was- it would be, you know, there would be one, one person who was formally discarding the coat. And then they would, and it would, if it was either April 1 or the first week of April. But anyway, you take off the coat, and then they would recite one that [citing in old English], throw it down, and stamp on it. And that was the-the official start of spring, was-was the stepping on the coach ceremony?
IG: 1:07:25
You went through enormous changes during your undergraduate career, personally and intellectually. And how did you- at the end of this period? How did you begin? Did you have any- how did your perception of where you came from, of yourself, change during this period?
DM: 1:07:49
Oh, I do not know that. I do not know that I would say that there was, I do not, I do not think that I went through anything during that time that I would call a major change. I think it was just a sort of steady progression of who I was from the time I was in high school, right through my undergraduate, I formed friendships. I had formed strong friendships in high school. I still were getting together with a couple in a couple of weeks, he and I have been friends since seventh grade, and so, you know, I do not know that there was any major change, except, of course.
JM: 1:08:45
No, I was thinking, you came in to join the Newman Club.
DM: 1:08:50
That, okay, the major-major change was probably my religious beliefs. The first thing I did was join the Newman Club. I was up here in Syracuse the first week that I was on campus at Harpur, because I came up with somebody they wanted, they needed somebody to represent Harpur College's Newman Club at a at a statewide Newman Club mentioned, and I came up here for that.
IG: 1:09:18
And the Newman Club was after Cardinal-
DM: 1:09:21
No, yeah, that yeah, that is, yeah, that is the, that is the campus-campus Catholic youth student organization. And so I, that was the first thing I joined. By the end of the-the first semester, I told the head, the- then president-
JM: 1:09:42
John Phillips.
DM: 1:09:43
John Phillips that I was dropping out of Newman Club because I was no longer a Catholic, and he knew that I was going with Janet, and he told me that it would never last, which is why we are still like. Other, yeah, which is why we are still together. It is just despite John, [laughter] I was not let him be right, but, but that and I went from that, I mean, you know, we have talked personally, I went from that to-to having no religious faith at all. I- religious skeptic. Even though I taught philosophy of religion for 20-some years, I would never let them know where I sit. I wanted them one day to be sure that I was a firm theist, and be sure the next day I was an atheist, and the day after that, because I wanted them to think for themselves, and I wanted just to introduce them to the give them the tools by which they could do some serious critical thinking about it, but that my own serious critical thinking just led me to doubts. And doubts are not things that you choose. Doubts come just as you, as you entertain them, and-and once they-they become that way. I mean, if you doubt a person's integrity, you cannot choose.
IG: 1:11:13
No-no. Well, how did these doubts arise, at you know, from-from this early period in your intellectual life?
DM: 1:11:24
I think it had, I mean, I think that I chose philosophy simply because what little I knew about it was that it was asking, you know, asking questions. And so the doubts-doubts come, which is why so many strict fundamentalists do not want questions raised.
JM: 1:11:49
And your grandparents, your grandparents growing up?
DM: 1:11:53
Well, yeah, I grew up in a very interesting environment, because my-my grandparents were people who were Protestant and thought of all Catholics as papists, but my father had been raised as a Catholic, and so my mother converted and promised that the children would be raised as Catholics. And but when I was with my mother's parents, and that was really close to them, I was born when my father was in Tinian in the war, and so I was born into their home. And so she taught Sunday school, and I would be as a little toe head. I would be, I would go along with her to Sunday school. So I, you know, [crosstalk] I was exposed since then
JM: 1:12:40
-in the sense of, you know, why would my grandparents go to hell?
DM: 1:12:45
Not-not then, not, then I raised. My questions actually were raised when I first had lots of Jewish friends in high school, and-and it seemed to me absolutely absurd that they, you know, the- my good friend Bob and I, who were Catholics, were saved. Our friend Dave, who was Protestant, had a smidgen of a chance, because he might come, he might come around. And our good Jewish friend Dick was, you know, he did not have a snowball's chance in hell [laughter] of ever making it, and all of this just seemed ridiculous to me.
IG: 1:13:23
Right.
DM: 1:13:23
And so my question, my questioning came about, religion came from-from early on, and then when I went. but-but I was still, I was still a firm believer when I went [crosstalk]
JM: 1:13:33
-into philosophy.
DM: 1:13:34
Yes, yeah-yeah. Those are the, those are, yeah, those are the basic questions. And people still ask those questions. I mean, philosophy, what the earliest philosophers are asking those questions? Plato was the first one to develop a theory that there is an immortal soul. I mean, that is comes out of Greek philosophy. Does not come out of Judeo-Christian tradition. It is integrated into it much later. So-so those, yeah, those, those were what led me. So I think it was, it was just that experience, the continuation of the experience I had. I have been tremendously fortunate in the friendships that I have had throughout my life, people I would trust implicitly with, you know, with anything important to me, and to have had so many from high school through college to now, has just been-been wonderful.
IG: 1:14:32
Did you keep in touch with any of your professors?
DM: 1:14:38
No, as I say, once I came up here, Brown, shortly thereafter, was-was gone. I think Savage had taken a job somewhere else already, and Roma was the only one who was still there that I had a connection with, and I did not, I did not keep up a connection with-with-with him. So no, the other person actually was interesting. I was just thinking the other day. Another person who had an influence on me was Edmund Wilson [Edward Wilson], who was a black sculptor. Because I found I could take my fine arts requirement by taking a studio art course. And I had always loved to draw, but had never really pursued it, and I took just an introductory drawing course from Edmund Wilson, and Wilson taught me how to look at things and how to conceptualize. And I took, yeah, I took a second course from somebody else who was a shy man. I cannot even remember his name. He was shy. The second course was all art majors, and he would talk to them. And I just felt kind of lost, so I just did whatever projects were necessary to get through it. But Wilson, I- we just fiddle around with drawing for ages. And then when I was coaching, I had a student who wanted to know if she could find a figure drawing class, and asked me if at the college there was one, and I called over it was, and they said, well, one of our adjuncts runs a program over at the Westcott center. So I knew she would not, she did not have transportation to get over there. So I-I have been interested in getting back into drawing. And so I took her over there, and I have been doing that ever since. But it- you know, so the drawing has been, is now a part of my life, has been a part of my life. But Wilson-Wilson had a, had a real influence, because I thought he was going to teach me how to draw, and he did not. He just taught me how to look and how to conceptualize. And-
IG: 1:17:14
Far more important.
DM: 1:17:15
It was the key was, and it was something that stayed with me right until I finally had an opportunity to do something on a regular basis, and-and I have been doing that for what, 25 years, I have been going to open figure drawing and-and just enjoying that. So-so, yeah, Wilson was- he did a series of I went into his-his studio once or twice. Later, I guess I cannot remember what the occasion was, because I was not taking courses from him, but he did a series called minority man, you know, and as a black sculptor, they were all in wood, and they were very expressive. They were emotional. They-they were figures in emotional trauma, just done in-in, you know, in what I, you know, getting tree things, and then just carving them. But they were very powerful. And I saw one of his works in one art history thing that I saw after that, but-
IG: 1:18:29
That must have been highly unusual to have a Black art teacher.
DM: 1:18:38
Yes, yeah.
JM: 1:18:40
Pretty much all one school.
Third speaker 1:18:46
How diverse the faculty was at that time?
DM: 1:18:48
I do not remember it being an overly diverse faculty, but Wilson-Wilson had a tremendous impact on me because-because he not only was an artist, but he knew how to teach art, you know, and that is, that is, you know,
JM: 1:19:01
That is a gift that.
DM: 1:19:03
Yeah, that is a gift as well, yeah, and-and he and your grade was on the basis of how he thought where you went, from where you started to where you finished. So there was a young man in there who could not draw to save his life. He would work hard at it, right? [laughs] But Wilson did not fail him because he worked hard at it, and he was encouraged to do that. The other thing about the difference, going back to how things were different back then, the art studio was open 24 hours a day. The only thing you did not have access to was painting stuff or clay materials, because those- you had to pay for. But all the drawing materials, which included, you know, chalks, pastels, uh, charcoal, you know, and drawing paper was there. And I remember one of the projects-
IG: 1:20:07
And the doors were open,
DM: 1:20:08
-and the doors were open. One of the projects was, I just was not getting it. And so I went over there at, I think, 10:30 at night, and sat down. It was a, it was a pen, and pen and ink still life that I was supposed to do, just a series of bottles, and I had done them, and I, you know, he would go by, and I would look up expectantly, and he would shake-shake his head, no. I mean, he would just say no, right? Actually, we never say no. He just, you know, and I knew that I was not getting it, but I could go over there at night and just work on this on my own. So I went over there, and the bottles are all there, right? And I am looking, I am drawing, no, that is not right. I am doing that, and it is just outlines, right? That is not, and all of a sudden, I drew an- oh, right. And I stopped looking at the bottles, because I drew them so many times, I knew all their shapes, and I drew five in a row that I knew he was going to say yes to. Because, again, it is a matter of looking right.
JM: 1:21:10
Yeah.
DM: 1:21:12
But-but that was the thing. It was those materials were just available at the- at dinner. The only time I have ever put on weight in my life was the first spring semester I was there because I ate two dinners every night. [laughter] My roommate and I had a had routines going. We played off each other at the table, and the group would we go over there early, and a group would sit down with us, and then they would all leave, and we would go back and get a second meal, and another group would join us and go through a second meal. But you could do that. We had lobster tails and steak once a month for birthday-birthday right.
IG: 1:21:57
At the cafeteria?
DM: 1:21:58
At the cafeteria, lobster tail and steak once a month for- we for special events, they would have a roast beef, where they would cut off, you know, you want it from the rare part, right? Unlimited- go back for milk, anything you wanted that first couple of years was unlimited. I had a friend going to Hamilton, who ate nowhere near as well as I did for all the money his parents were paying to send him to Hamilton.
JM: 1:22:29
I remember, you know, a bunch of us from Whitney would go over, you know, and he and his roommate, also from Kenmore, at that time, would be doing these routines back and forth. And they were so funny, you know, and everybody was spraying their juice, laughing, things like that. And I remember that. I do not remember the food, except for Blintz. Oh, I could not understand why a Blintz was a dinner.
DM: 1:22:55
Yes, they would, they would serve Blintzes as dinner
JM: 1:22:57
And bagels and locks, no, that is just no food.
DM: 1:23:04
But-but also, when they opened up brand Newing, they had the sandwich lady. And I was- no, I just, I might have gone there once, but the people who regularly went there, the sand- is sandwich lady would make up any kind of sandwich you wanted. And you have seen Dagwoods, well, people would walk out with sandwiches this high, yeah, okay, that, right? And then that, then, then some of that, right. Another slice, then some of that. [laughs]
IG: 1:23:32
Did you take food into your dorm?
DM: 1:23:35
I think they were eating those just at the cafeteria that was just said, Just be lunch time ago, and sat at a table, and because it would be tough to carry it, they did not bag it for you. It was not, was not a fast-food place.
IG: 1:23:45
The cafeteria was opened certain hours, right?
DM: 1:23:48
Yeah-yeah. The cafeteria was, yeah. Cafeterias just-just open for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
IG: 1:23:53
What was your relationship with the library? Did you spend a lot of time in the library, or was it open all hours?
DM: 1:23:58
I do not remember if it was open all hours. I remember being in the, I remember more in graduate school, because I-I had to, you know, I had a carrel that I had used there, but I remember some very clever graffiti in the Harpur College Library men's room, [laughter] but yeah, the- I do not remember spending that much time in the library, because most of what I was doing was reading primary sources, and those were the books you bought each year. So, you know, if I was not reading commentaries on Leibniz, I was reading Leibniz; I was not reading commentaries on Plato. I was reading Plato. So-so again, was not that grad school level?
IG: 1:24:59
Did not the library have these books, these primary materials?
DM: 1:25:03
It did, as far as I can recall; I never remember anybody complaining that there was something that they could not get. But I did not have a call to-to use it that much.
JM: 1:25:15
Did you bought them all, right?
DM: 1:25:17
Yeah. And back then, books were, books were reasonable. I mean, you know the book-book industry-
IG: 1:25:24
How do you how do you think that your classmates from Harpur would remember you?
Speaker 1 1:25:29
The only ones who remember me are the ones who still know me. [laughs]
IG: 1:25:35
How did they talk about you from this period? How do you think that they would remember you?
DM: 1:25:40
Oh, I do not know. I think we all laugh and joke. We were just at this last get-together, New Year's, from an earlier get-together when Mark Weinstein was not able to make it, somebody had picked up a badge with his picture from back then on it. And I think the running joke was, well, at least he improved with age. But it was, I do not know. I think that we all pretty much had. I think we are the same people now that we were then. Even though Mark Wolraich has had a tremendously important career as a pediatrician, he has, he has written a number of books on dealing with children with special needs. He coordinates a program in right now, out of the University of Oklahoma, that works through the state to coordinate all the services in the state for students with special needs that he organized and put together, but we still rib him the same way we did across the campus, one family across the campus and but it is that it said we establish, yeah, we established an easy kind of relationship of people who are serious when we need to be serious and able to laugh. And I think we, you know, our individual personalities are just developments of what they-they were then. So it is not as so much of thinking how people would remember me, so much as thinking about how glad I am that all those so many of those good relationships I had, them are still a part of my life. Now.
IG: 1:27:48
What lessons did you learn from this important period in your life?
DM: 1:27:54
I do not know. I think, I think we have kind of-
IG: 1:27:56
Covered a lot.
DM: 1:27:57
Covered that, yeah-yeah, in general-
IG: 1:27:59
But just-
DM: 1:28:01
Yeah, no, I think that, as I have said, there was the-the beliefs and-and beliefs I have had about what is most important in life are things that simply developed through the associations there that I was fortunate enough to have good friends. You know, continuation of these, of these good friendships. And so I think that, I think that the- we were open-minded to a diverse world. I think that meeting other people who were like that has just established a sort of-of a way of life in which you are critical about things that you think are wrong, but you are open to-to a diverse world of people who-who managed to get to those same places in life by a lot of different routes. And I think that-that started a little bit in in high school, really expanded in college.
JM: 1:29:35
I remember, you know, sitting around talking to people about some serious things.
DM: 1:29:42
Yeah-yeah.
JM: 1:29:42
And, you know, and I think that is came out of that era, um-
DM: 1:29:50
Yeah-yeah, no-no topics, no topics seem to be out of bounds. And the discussions that we would have were-were very serious. Whether they are about religion or about politics or about social conditions, or-
IG: 1:30:06
Were they ever about the social conditions of women, women's rights?
DM: 1:30:10
I think those developed as we went. I think that every woman I still know who is someone I knew back then, I would describe as a feminist and-and I had, I had a student, Janet, and I shared a student, you know, went from my class in philosophy to her class in English, came in one day and said, "Dr Muir just yelled at us for not being feminist." And I had not really yelled at him for not being feminist. What I just simply asked him, "How many of you would-would be [inaudible]", this is in the (19)90s. "How many of you would-would say you were feminists?" And very few would raise their hands, and I say, Well, you OCC know. And then I would start to explain what feminism, you know, what the early feminism movement meant, and what people would try to say and-and talk about, you expect that you can go out for any sport in high school? Of course, you can back then you could not, right? There were not any right. And just try to let them, let them know. I said, yeah, what I said, somehow, people who are against feminism have made it a nasty word for young women. I do not understand that. I said, "How can it be a nasty word? Are you against equal pay for equal work? Are you against equal opportunity for in in every profession? Are you?" So-so that was yelling at them, asking, ask him, asking him a series of questions. "Dr. Muir was yelling." But anyway, she was one of the ones I got to, I think it was not, yeah, but yeah, it was something that built. It was built, I think, you know, it started to build in those years, and it just, you know, it just can continue to build from-from then on.
JM: 1:31:59
In short of time, was, I was at Harpur when I decided, you know, to start going back to school and taking classes. I took music appreciation because at Harpur, I had been in a music appreciation class, and it introduced me to opera. I loved Aida, Leontyne Price, and all this music that, you know, I never was exposed to in my family. They were doing Lawrence Welk and stuff like that. But that was what I went back to. And the first literature classes I took was literature by and about women, you know, in the feminist mold, and-and I got to teach, and I think it was the last semester I taught her. Last year, I taught at OCC. I got to teach a course in literature by and about women. But those things, I came from a family of five girls, and my parents were out of the Depression era, and they both were interested in going to college, but could not, because they both had to work. And my mother graduated from high school at the age of 16, and, you know, was very much interested in going on to school, and my father wanted to be an architect, so they were determined that all of their daughters would go to college, so there was not a question in my family about trying to go to college. My older sister went to a business school and then dropped out. She was not terribly interested. I went to college and dropped out after a year, which was, I think, a big disappointment to them, but then my next sister, my next sister, my next sister, all three of them went to college, went into nursing, occupational therapy and-and all of that. So growing up in a family of girls, I did not really recognize the lack of opportunity, although when I think back now, there were not any sports for us. And I might have been interested in sports. I now play tennis. I have been playing tennis for 40 years and-and enjoying it, and but there were not those things. So, you know, the feminism, they- was a big thing for me, and I think it started in those years, but I did not capitalize on it until- I did not capitalize, [crosstalk] I went back to college in the (19)70s.
IG: 1:34:30
And-and your husband supported you?
JM: 1:34:32
Absolutely. And you know, through grad school, there were a lot of couples that Syracuse that broke up because the wives were working and the husbands were in grad school, and they just went different ways. But when David finished his degree, his PhD, that is when I was pregnant with our daughter, and I-I wanted to go back to school. And he said all. Take care of the baby.
IG: 1:35:03
How progressive of you.
JM: 1:35:05
Well, I still cook all our meals. After [crosstalk] Yeah-yeah-yeah. Because we were, we were married for seven years before he had a child, and then, and then, just as she decided she wanted to go back to-to school, all of a sudden, we found she was pregnant, and-and, but then, yeah, I said, I can I have a flexible- I can manage my schedule, and we can do this and-and-and we did, and made sure that she was able to go back to school.
IG: 1:35:38
Well, what concluding remarks do you have? What message would you like to convey to future generations, or this generation listening to your interview?
DM: 1:35:57
It is tough, because we came through a golden era that I do not know is going to be repeatable, because with what was happening in the (19)50s, the Cold War, and then Soviets launching Sputnik, and all of a Sudden, huge amounts of money being poured into education, and you combine that with the post war economy, where-where you just had the fastest growing middle class that I think there is ever been, and all of those things coming together for us at just that time, New York State converting their-their colleges into from State Teachers colleges into liberal arts colleges, forming university centers. I mean, Harpur was the first one, but Stony Brook had already begun by the time, you know what, by the second year, or sooner than that, Stony Brook was beginning, and then Albany, and then they purchased [inaudible]. So all of these things are happening at once. We are, and I do not see those factors coming together again. We had not to have taken advantage of that would have been a real shame. Everything was there for us. Everything was there for us. But I guess the message would be, look to try to recreate those opportunities wherever you can. It is you- you are not likely to have the same set of circumstances, but we do not want to restrict. We want to-to open up. And I see too many things that are tending toward restricting, again, limiting again. Too many people who are afraid of diversity, afraid of various other things. This was as great a period, I think, as you could live through, and whatever anybody can do to recreate those open conditions, I think that is what they should be trying to do.
IG: 1:38:17
Thank you very much. Would you like to add your concluding remarks to this interview?
JM: 1:38:27
We have had a really charmed life, and-and the fact that our daughter has picked up on a lot of the values that you know, we experience with our friends. We are very proud of her, and that when she wanted to go to college, she looked at Geneseo and she looked at Binghamton. She did not want to go too far, and luckily for us, she did not want to spend a lot of money. [laughter] But when she looked at Geneseo, she said: “It is a lot of the same people.” She went to Marcellus High School, which is very small and rural. She said, “It is a lot of the same people,” you know, a monoculture of middle-class white upstate. And she said, I want to go to Binghamton because of the diversity and-and it was hard for her to go into that big school from here, but she was in Hinman, she was in a suite with, you know, that gave her a smaller cohort of-of students to be with, and she made wonderful friendships, and she had a wonderful experience at Binghamton. So even though it is bigger, she still had a core experience there that was very positive for her. So you know, it is still a great place to go. Yeah, I would say, even though my experience was not a positive one there, I have seen that it was-
DM: 1:40:12
There was one thing that I did not that I did not say that-that to me, characterized the- an attitude that is no longer there, because Binghamton went division one sports and-and my understanding was that the President wanted to do it, and the faculty was against it, and as I was against it, in fact, I talked to people who were calling on fundraising drives, and I saying, oh, the most thing I am most disappointed in it was going Division One, because division one and what happened? It was a scandal. Why? Because you cannot build a division one program. Why would you go to a demanding school like Harpur instead of Cornell, right, which is still right, still, it is Ivy League. It still has the name. Why go there right when neither one is going to be able to offer you scholarship, and Cornell has been added a law a lot longer, and they know how to they know how to work the system. And I did not think they could write, and what did they have? They had a scandal when we were there. It was Division three. I ran Division Three track until I got married [laughter] and-and it was fun, right. We, we played games on the on the small- it was a van we would go in, right? The coach would drive us in a van. Coach Lyons would drive us in a van, and the basketball team, right.
JM: 1:41:41
Harass them. [inaudible]
DM: 1:41:43
Yeah, that was, that was, that was that was the cheer we would go down there, "Harass them, harass them, make them really relinquish the ball." I mean, that was, you know, that was the kind of fun sort of thing that you did. And it was, but it was very different. And because it you-you did not go there for athletics. The athletics were there because they were part of a traditional education. And the people in the in the phys ed department were wonderful instructors. Were great down there when we when we started the- but it was an academic institution, thoroughly and division one schools are not, first of all, academic institutions. If you are a division one, of course, they are never going to go football, thank goodness. But I have a loyalty to SU [Syracuse University], big on Division One, everything, but I really liked Harpur as a Division Three school. I wish it could have stayed a division three school. I think. I wish they were still chanting, [Harass them, harangue them. Make them. Make them relinquish the ball] at basketball games.
IG: 1:42:53
Because that would have kept the emphasis on academics.
DM: 1:42:56
Yes, yeah, because then-then-
JM: 1:42:58
And sports are for enjoyment.
DM: 1:43:00
Sports, yeah, they are, they are, yeah, they are for enjoyment. And you do that, right? You run track because you want to run track. You go out, you know you are out for the basketball team because you want to play basketball. But-but that, to me, was-was what Harpur College was, and I wish it was, was now what Binghamton University is, but it is not. It is not. And that-that, to me, is a shame. I think that-that is something lost that will never be regained. And I think it is a real shame that, but it is a totally different campus. I mean, you got a school, and you got all these different schools that it was, but still-still, I would love to have seen them have the courage to be a university center and a division and do division three sports. That would have been great; it would have taken courage, but it would have put them on the map. And I think the best, best way.
JM: 1:44:04
I do not know if they have sports for women down there. I really do not have a clue about that, but they did not when we were there.
DM: 1:44:09
But they-they-they, they must not.
Third speaker: 1:44:11
They have tennis.
DM: 1:44:11
Do they have a women's basketball program?
Third speaker 1:44:13
Yeah? They do. They have lacrosse-
DM: 1:44:20
Yeah-yeah, all the same things, yeah, I will say yeah. But that is-
JM: 1:44:28
Now.
Third speaker 1:44:28
[crosstalk] tracks obviously.
DM: 1:44:30
Yeah-yeah, but-but that-that-that to me, was something that I would have liked to have seen them keep, and it would have been a uniqueness that I think would have-have been a good. So, yep.
IG: 1:44:47
Thank you so much. Thank you for a very interesting-
DM: 1:44:50
Thank-thank you for having the interest in doing it.
JM: 1:44:55
What-what is this going to be used for?
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with David and Janet Muir
Subject
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Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
Contributor
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Muir, David ; Muir, Janet ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2018-01-12
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In Copyright
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eng
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David and Janet Muir.mp3
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2018-01-12
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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105:00 minutes
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Oral Histories
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Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni
Description
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In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history.
Creator
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Irene Gashurov
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-2018
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a>
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2017-11-27
Interviewer
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Irene Gashurov
Interviewee
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Stephen Norman Weiss
Year of Graduation
1967
Biographical Text
Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School.
Keywords
Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni living in Tenafly, NJ; Harpur College – Alumni working in New York City.
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Subject LCSH
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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Alumni Interviews
Interview with: Stephen Norman Weiss
Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov
Transcriber: Oral History Lab
Date of interview: 27 November 2017
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(Start of Interview)
IG: 00:03
All right, okay, so for the record, this is Irene Gashurov interviewing Steve Weis. Steve, can you tell me your name, your age and who you are?
SW: 00:23
Okay, my name is Stephen Weiss. I am 72 years old. I am a man. I graduated at Harpur College in October 1966 but I am officially the class of June 1967. I am a lawyer. I practice patent litigation and international law in New York City, and I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I have a wife and four children and five grandchildren, and what else about me? That is who I am.
IG: 01:01
Um, that is fine. That is [crosstalk]
SW: 01:03
Tenafly, New Jersey.
IG: 01:04
Okay, so where did you grow up?
SW: 01:06
I was born in Bronx County, New York City, in 1945. I go- I-I grew up in, oh, I was I live- We lived in the Bronx until March 1958. My first memory, big memory of the Bronx, was coming home from elementary school, and there was a block party going on, celebrating the death of Joe McCarthy and the whole street and- It was fabulous. 815 Fairmount Place. You can actually find that in Google, but that is where I lived, and there was a big block party, and I was wondering what was going on, and they were all celebrating that someone had died, which was odd to a kid, but um the person that died was Joe McCarthy. So I lived, we lived there, and my sister, myself and my parents lived there until March (19)58 and then we moved to Flushing, Queens, and we lived there until- I lived there until June (19)63 when I left to go to college. I went to high school at Brooklyn Technical High School, which was in Brooklyn, New York, so I had to commute to high school, and there I studied engineering. I know I never became an engineer, and that is probably good, because the bridges and tunnels in New York City that stand today probably would not be there if I went for engineering. [laughs] So then I start- when I applied to Harpur College, at the time, there were two financial programs that made college free for me. I do not know if they still exist. One, you had to take a test for. It was called the Regent scholarship. And if you were a resident of the state of New York, you took a test, and I do not know a certain grade gave you the scholarship, and otherwise you did not get it. And so I got that. And then there was another program called the Scholar Incentive Award, and that was given to all residents of the state of New York, so if you had both, then basically went to college for free. And which is what I did, went to college basically, I mean, there was, there was, like a nominal fee, but I did not pay for dormitory. There was a meal plan, and of course, there was tuition. I paid for books. That was it. And at- when I got accepted to Harpur College, there was no state univ- there was a State University of New York system, but Harpur College was known as Harpur College. It was, was not, was not known as SUNY Binghamton. It was not, I do not know if it was part of SUNY Binghamton or not, but the sign was Harpur College. The acceptance documents which are going to donate to you say Harpur College. And they were just starting the trimester program. My class was the first class that had the opportunity to go in July of (19)63 I wanted to get out of my house as soon as possible, so I opted to go right after I graduated high school to go to college. So that is my background leading up to college.
IG: 04:20
Yeah-yeah. so what I am just will return to Binghamton University, and I am very interested to learn what you knew of Harpur College at the time that you applied.
SW: 04:37
They- there was no Internet, there was no email, the- we had a guidance counselor at the Brooklyn Tech. And at the time, if you went to school in the one of the New York City High Schools, because my sister went to music and art in New York City, what they would tell you is that you could apply to and I remember three or four colleges, period. I mean, you could not pay that. You could not apply to more, even if you wanted to. I think if you were rejected, you could get another application. But I know people, I know I have four kids and they, I know what they did, but I probably spent more in college applications than people spent on tuition back then, but, but then you could not do that, and one of the applications had to go to the city university system, which was city CCNY, Queens College, Brooklyn, you had to apply to one of them. So that left you with three. And then the guidance counselor said, Well, there was, there was a, he called it a new college. I guess it was not new. Was not was I do not think it was new. It was fairly new because it had been someplace else. Had been Vestal, I think, and they recently moved to the Binghamton just a few years before I started. I think, I think, I am not sure. So he gave me this brochure on Harpur College, and it was a liberal arts college, and I did not want to go into engineering. I want to want the liberal arts, because I like the literature. I like learning various subjects that it want to be, you know, science and engineering. So that was a liberal arts college, and I do not remember. Oh, I know where else I applied. I applied to Oberlin. Oberlin, Ohio. So Oberlin College, and I do not remember if I got in or not, but I mean, I went to gone there for free, then I could not afford it, and I applied to one more, and I did not want to go to the city colleges, because I had to get out. I had to get out. I was very highly motivated to get away for reasons that I will go into so I remember, I remember it was a green brochure, and it just, I just remember, I remember the brochure, it was green, it was like four pages, and it just described the liberal arts education. And so it intrigued me. Now, we did not visit colleges. Then the way, you know, as I said, with my four kids. I mean, I spent money. We flew all over, we flew to Michigan, we flew out to everywhere you can, you name it. We visited with four kids. As I said, on airfare and applications, I spent more than college tuition, but then you did not visit. So CCNY I knew because was in the city, Oberlin. I never visited. I just knew from the brochure the other college that I applied to, I do not even remember, and I did not visit Harpur so but that was the only university that, other than CCNY, that I applied to, where I could use the Regent scholarship and the incentive program. So it was liberal arts, and it just looked interesting, so that is why I applied there. But there was no visiting, no interviews, nothing.
IG: 07:55
Let us just backtrack. Um-um, tell me what your parents did for a living, and how many were you in your family?
SW: 08:11
My father worked for the state of New York as a tax examiner, and also had a second job selling insurance. He did that for my home, and my mother was a clerk or secretary for the Department of Buildings for the city of New York. And my sister, who is seven years older than I, she actually got married when I was 13 and became and finished the last two years of college, being married and she became a teacher. So she moved out in (19)58 she moved out the year that we left the Bronx and moved to Flushing.
IG: 08:52
So did your parents value education, and did they see that education as a vehicle of to a better life. What was their attitude?
SW: 09:06
I want to be totally honest [crosstalk].
IG: 09:07
Yes.
SW: 09:08
Okay, well, I came from a dysfunctional family, okay, my parents really did not get along, just one of the reasons I had to get out, and that is one of the reasons that my sister left in (19)58 and she got married. She was sophomore in college. She just had to get out. So it was a very difficult childhood, and that is one of the reasons I went to wanted to go to Brooklyn Tech to just to get away. So I commuted to high school. I did not want to go to my local high school. I took a test, and in Brooklyn Tech, you could start in the ninth grade, Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, you had to start the 10th grade, and I wanted to get out. So my mother, neither of my parents went to college, but my mother was-was more encouraging. My father, I actually had to forge his name on the consent form to go to Brooklyn Tech, but my mother helped me out, you know, when she could. So my mother valued education. Now my-my mother's brother, he was actually dean of the graduate school at CCNY during the (19)60s. His name is Oscar, was- is Oscar Zeichner, z, e, i, c, h, n, er, and my mother's maiden name is Zeichner. So his family was also dysfunctional. I do not want to fame my uncle, but he was, he was dean there, and they wrote history book, and so he obviously highly educated, PhD. So my mother valued education, my father, I mean, I did not really, I mean, would not really talk that much. So I do not know what, what he valued, but I always thought. I always knew I would go to college. I do not know why I knew, but I knew I would get actually, ever since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, I have, like, I have some stuff from my childhood, like, like, old, autographed books in the sixth grade. You know, it starts off go little album far and near to all the friends I hold so dear, and tell them each to write a page that I might read in my old age. So now I am 72 I went back and looked at it when I was in the third grade. I wanted to be a lawyer. I do not know why, because I did not know any lawyers. No one in my family was a lawyer, but I wanted to be a lawyer. [laughs] so, so I knew I was going to get a higher education. I never doubted it, and that is not because of parental encouragement or anything.
IG: 11:50
But it if not parental encouragement. Do you think that the encouragement came from your teachers and maybe your [crosstalk]
SW: 11:57
I think everyone-
IG: 11:58
-your, um-
SW: 11:59
I am sorry.
IG: 12:00
Yeah.
SW: 12:01
-everyone in my neighborhood was expected to go to college. I mean, I was brought up in a Jewish neighborhood in the Bronx, and everyone there was expected. It was just like you were expected to go to kindergarten and expected to go from the sixth grade to the seventh grade-
IG: 12:18
Right. Yeah.
SW: 12:19
I mean, it was just-just understood that that would happen as natural as, you know, as guys going as eating dinner, We just understood that you would go to college. I do not know anyone who did not expect to go to college in the group of people that I grew up with. I mean, it just was, I do not know anyone who just thought of getting a job, or thought of enlisting in the military or thought of going becoming a technician, everyone that I knew, every page in my year, in my elementary school where they signed the autograph book. They all talked to talk about college.
IG: 12:23
Right. So was that- was the culture [crosstalk]
SW: 12:32
It was the environment, was the entire environment. Was the public, the most unbelievable public-school system.
IG: 13:01
Yes.
SW: 13:02
I read in high school. I read The Rubaiyat. I read, I read Heart of Darkness in high school. I mean, I mean, I remember, I remember, I remember poems I read in the in junior high, I remember reading John Green Whittier. Do you familiar with that? No. Do you know that?
IG: 13:22
No.
Third speaker: 13:22
Yeah.
SW: 13:23
The Maud Muller, it says, "of all the words of tongue and pan the sad a star it might have been." I still remember that this elementary school would do a sixth grade. So it was the public-school system was unbelievable at that time, I mean, in my neighborhood, Jonas Salk, who had the polio vaccine. He went to my Junior High School in the Bronx, yeah. It was just-just unbelievable public education.
IG: 13:37
Right. Right.
SW: 13:53
So it was just expected.
IG: 13:56
So when you arrived to Harpur College, what-what did the campus look like? You know, was it a culture shock for you to come from the city.
SW: 14:10
No.
IG: 14:10
And end up in the-
SW: 14:12
The country.
IG: 14:13
-in the country. Yes,
SW: 14:14
No, it was not. I do not know why. It really was not. I mean, it just-just, I cannot explain it. I said, no, like, like zelig, like a chameleon.
Third speaker: 14:26
Do you want to draw that for us?
IG: 14:26
Yeah.
SW: 14:26
Just, I just-just changed. I mean, I just, all of a sudden, I was a college student. I remember very early on there was, there were tables in the student center. Now, if you drove up to center drive, there was a, like, a like a circle, like you would drive up to center drive, you made a left, and you went around a circle, and there was the student center right in front, and there was an Esplanade, you know, an elevated walkway. I have a movie of it which I am going to email you. You see it there? I guess I could draw it. Yeah, I am not a good artist, but, but, but that is where the bus pulled up with that video I showed you. But anyway, in that building I remember, let us see, there was a bookstore, and there was some rooms, hold on, in the back and to the right, where we used to where we had meetings, including SDS [Students for a Democratic Society], but the date that within the day or two after you got there, there was not a formal orientation. There was a letter I got from an advisor which I gave you, which is in that folder.
IG: 15:34
Right.
SW: 15:34
That was my orientation. He met me.
IG: 15:37
Right.
SW: 15:37
And-and in there-there were tables, and there was the debate society, which I joined immediately. And the coach was Dr. Eugene Vasilew. And there was a thing called services for youth, which worked with poor children in the Binghamton area. So that intrigued me, so I joined that there were tables, and you would go to the table, and there was a pad and-and there were people who were in that group, and they would talk to you about it, and you could sign your name.
IG: 16:11
Why did the opportunity of working with poor children in the neighborhood intrigue you? Was that part of your upbringing?
SW: 16:20
I probably identified with them.
IG: 16:22
Yeah.
SW: 16:22
I mean, I would have to go through analysis the real reason, which I am not going to do, but-but probably, you know, probably I identified with them.
IG: 16:34
So, do you think that there was a lot of outreach that Harpur College did to the community. Do you think that it, it had strong ties to the community?
SW: 16:45
Right. I think so. Yeah, and they really, they made you feel welcome. I mean, they made me it was a very small school. I mean, when I visited it in October for the 50th, my 50th Homecoming was very- it was large. There was like, I saw those separate communities they called the College in the Woods. I think they called.
IG: 17:04
Right.
SW: 17:05
That did not exist. None of that existed. There was Harpur College, there was, there was, let us say, Champlain Hall. There was a building to the left of that. There were, like, just a few dorms who basically knew, I think that the cornerstone said (19)58 or (19)59 and I entered (19)63 I mean, some, some of them were being built. Then in the back there was a dawn being built called Chenango, it was not built yet. I moved in there in my third year as the first tenant. I mean, the first student. So you felt like it was a very small community. And at least those of us who entered in July knew everyone
IG: 17:06
Right-right.
SW: 17:07
Now that changed, because I could talk about trimester, but in that first going there, there was no-no one was there before us, because we were the first trimester. So there were, there were, you know, that was it. Everyone was started [crosstalk]
IG: 18:05
You were really the path breakers.
SW: 18:07
Yes, yeah, right. There were sophomores and juniors. I mean, people who were in the by- the two-semester system. Obviously, some of them opted to take the next semester starting July, but, but it was very small, so you sort of got to know everybody. So you really felt, I mean, you felt welcome. You- professors had us over it. One of the videos that I am going to email you, that I showed you was, Dr. Vasilew having us over at his house for barbecue. Dr. Carlip [Alfred Benjamin Carlip], he was an economics professor. I do not know if this name anything mean anything to you. He was chairman of the economics department, C, A, R, L, i, p, he had us over to his house. Dr Kadish [Gerald Kadish], he-
Third speaker: 18:52
He is still there.
SW: 18:53
Taught. He taught history.
Third speaker: 18:54
He is still teaching.
SW: 18:56
Really? He is still teaching. I have a picture. I have to send it to- it is in my basement. I got to find it. He, he came in my last year, the last semester I had an apartment in Vestal, right near the Vestal High School. So we had an anti-war meeting there, and he came, and I have a picture of him there with his wife, who I learned he divorced a few years after that. May have remarried, but he was a specialist in Egyptian-
Third speaker: 19:25
That wife died, so it is, but he is, he is good.
SW: 19:29
Really? He is what Egyptians are still specialized in Egyptian history.
Third speaker: 19:33
Ancient.
SW: 19:35
Ancient history. Yeah, right-right, conversational hieroglyphics. I am joking, but yeah, but yeah, so he is still, he is really teaching.
Third speaker 19:43
And very sound, yeah.
SW: 19:48
Well, he was young. He was young. I mean, I am 72 and he is maybe 10 years older than me. So he must, he must be in his 80s. Yeah-yeah.
Third speaker: 19:53
Maybe even more. I mean, he is old, but he is still functioning.
SW: 20:01
That is cool, huh? I value would have known that I would have looked for him at the October reunion. He would have remembered me because he came to, we had anti-war meetings in my in my apartment, he came, he came to a few of them. He came with his wife, the one that he divorced anyway. So, yes, so-so it was very welcoming, warm atmosphere, inclusive.
IG: 20:26
And it is, it is very unusual that you had that much interaction with faculty being at a public university, because you would expect that, you know, from a Princeton or-
SW: 20:37
Right. Right.
IG: 20:40
-something like that, where there is very close interaction.
SW: 20:43
Yeah. I saw that that in Columbia, yeah, but that was different.
IG: 20:47
Yeah.
SW: 20:47
But the but the thing is actually the movie that I showed you at Dr Vasilew's house, I am playing ball with his son. He is like, a five-year-old son, or something, six-year-old. You know, you just felt like, all of a sudden, my dysfunctional family that I grew up with became a functional, welcoming family at this college. It was really-
IG: 21:09
It is wonderful.
SW: 21:10
-totally different experience. Yeah, I do not know if I did not get that feeling when I was there and October, but I mean, it is only there for a day there, and it seemed much bigger.
IG: 21:21
Did your parents visit you? Or did you visit them during your years at [crosstalk]
SW: 21:28
My parents, my parents split. My mother said she was [inaudible] She always told me she was going to wait until I graduate high school. Oh, she should not have, but she did, because my father was a little bit nuts, but uh, but um, but they did. But actually, my father and sister came up with me when I went to college in July. I am trying to think how we got up there. We must have taken the Greyhound bus and Port Authority. That is how we got up there. They came up there, and then right across Vestal Parkway, there was a hotel, which is nothing, and then, but they were there for days. So they came up there. My father was not there again. He actually died the following year. I came home, I actually found his body in the bathroom. So, because he was living alone and my mother was living alone, they split. So I came home. I remember, I know why I came home, because I was campaigning for Robert Kennedy for Senate. So I came home in the in October. That was the end of October. Election Day was November, something November 3. And my father died November 1, so he wanted me to stay in his apartment, but I would not, and I came there, and I have had him dead in the floor. So that is sort of guilt. My mother did visit me, actually. She came up a few times, and I would, I would come back here. I would take the train and I came back here. So I would, I would, you know, stay by my mother's place or friends. So I would come.
IG: 23:11
Hello.
SW: 23:13
Hi, Mary. I am being interviewed.
IG: 23:19
Yeah
SW: 23:20
I am famous.
IG: 23:22
So, I mean, I think I know the answer, but tell us how you-you felt about the Vietnam War at that time.
SW: 23:33
Okay. I was against it. There are many, many reasons why somehow was selfish. I mean, we had the draft so that the-the (19)60s are often romanticized by the music and, you know, free love and all that, but there was a pervasive anxiety, because, you are killed. What do you do? You go to jail, go to Canada, maybe never come back. You go in and who knows what is going to happen to you. So there were many reasons why I was against at first, I read a lot and just seemed stupid. I mean, the one seemed stupid, it was no reason for it later on. I mean, if you saw the series on TV, I mean, they lied to us, but it was obvious then that they lied. And you could see, well, I could tell that there was, I can tell the guy's name because I did not like him, Irwin Romana. He was a student up there, and his family had money, so he hired a draft lawyer. So if you had money, you could manipulate the system. I remember his initial. He told me the initial. I said, you have a lawyer. And I remember. This conversation. He said, Yeah, is it expensive? He said, Well, the first visit is $1,000 you know, that was more than college for me for four years. So, but anyway, so it was unfair, it did and it was scary, and there was no justification for it. So, and we studied. I do not know if you, I do not know. Do you have any economic background?
IG: 25:29
Well, I have read.
SW: 25:30
Okay, so you see if we soon. You know the Mont Pèlerin Society, the what Pèlerin Society? You know the Mont Pèlerin Society? Okay, well, just go into this, because I was [crosstalk] okay. So-so at the end of World War Two, I think Mont Pèlerin was (19)46 I think you remember, yeah, so at the end of World War Two, there were a group of economists who were shocked at what happened with strong centralized government. I mean, in Germany, the strong centralized government gave us, obviously, Nazis. And strong centralized government in Italy was Mussolini, the strong centralized government in Russia was Stalin, and the strong centralized government in Japan was Tojo, Hirohito. And the strong centralized government in the US was created by the New Deal and Franklin Roosevelt. There was big difference between the New Deal and fascism, but it was a strong central government, so they were frightened as to what was going to happen now, as Europe is about to be rebuilt, and how do we deal with the reemergence of strong central governments, how do we fight against it? So they had this meeting in Mont Pèlerin. It was in Switzerland. I think I do not remember you remember more better, more than I do, but and they discussed how to get rid of it. And of course, at that time, the only two strong central governments, was America based on capitalism and the Soviet Union. So they were petrified of the Soviet Union and communism, and they wanted America to become more capitalistic, and they wanted to get rid of a lot of the New Deal elements, which was strong centralized government like Social Security and TVA and all the things that Roosevelt did that they just did not want it so but the big fear was the Soviet Union and communism. And out of that, they broke their promise to, you know, to Ho Chi Minh, that Roosevelt made, that if you help, you will help you fight the Japanese and everything else, because, first of all, died and so anyway, so I was familiar with all that. So that that because I studied economics, and I could tell the teacher that taught it to me, Dr Melville, he was a professor at Harpur College, and they really went into things that, I do not know if they go into it now, but do they teach about the Mont Pèlerin now, I do not know.
IG: 25:42
Yes, absolutely.
Third speaker: 28:04
I am sure they do.
SW: 28:05
Yeah, but so-so-so I was, there were many reasons where I was against Vietnam. So there was a selfish reason the draft, there was the pervasive anxiety that, as time went on, all my friends felt, and we had Dylan playing for the dorms. I mean, I remember, but that was nice and-and we had, you know, lots of sex and other things that were fun, but there was a pervasive anxiety that we were always, you were scared. So since I was against it scary, very scary time. And then we had friends who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement, that there were people from, I guess you know that I think one was not the kids killed going down to one of the marches. I think, I think in (19)65 and I was a sophomore, I think, I think one of the students was killed down south. I did not get the only March I went on South was I went to DC, but I did not, I did not go to the I did not go all the way down south, but I think one of the kids that went down, they got hurt and killed. So there was the Civil Rights Movement. Then scary.
IG: 29:16
When, when did you kind of become open to politics and the, you know, the American, American scene, and so engaged, was it because of your of the threat of being enlisted in the in the war, or what made you so alive to the political scene?
SW: 29:41
Well, part of it was, we all, were-
IG: 29:43
You all were-
SW: 29:44
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was not there. Was this was not the this was the small group, maybe a small group joined SDS. That was not the only thing that was there. There was-
IG: 29:54
I mean, did it, did it happen on campus, or did it happen before coming? Your Harpur college-
SW: 30:00
I think it really evolved. It really got strong on campus. Yeah, not before first of before I was on campus, there was a lot of promise with Kennedy and the I did not know that he actually but he actually did not get I did not know that that, but no in high school, I mean, Kennedy was elected in November (19)60 I was in high school, and he was not killed until I was in college. And he was very popular with young people. One of the things I am giving you that Kennedy book I got the Hobb Bookstore, yeah, extremely popular. He was young. He was funny. And, you know, you got us, there was Bay of Pigs, and he admitted it was his fault. You know, he seemed, you know, almost like truancy. The buck stops here. I mean, he seemed honest so, and he said, I am a liberal and proud of it when people do not say that anymore. So, so through my high school years, when, before I went to college, I mean, I was really, you know, I was proud to be an American. Still, I am still thinking America is best country, you know, it is just that we have to do something about it.
IG: 31:15
Right.
SW: 31:15
But-but I was really felt the American pride. And then was after he was killed, the things started, you know, then, you know, it just like, like, shocked when he was killed, the chain, it changed a lot. And when Johnson came in, because we, you know, there were these theories, was he involved? And I am sure he was not, but, but then things started to jail. So Harpur College really happened.
IG: 31:47
So tell us what your involvement in student activism was like, student protest or activism, and what that that scene was [crosstalk]
SW: 31:56
Okay. So when it was still a very small college where in November (19)63 when he was killed. And through my through my years, there was that. There was not, if these other colleges did not exist, even when I graduated, there was no it was still small. It was bigger, but still small. And everyone, and everyone I knew was involved, it was not unique. It was not like the young democrats and young republicans, and they may have been stuff like that, but, you know, it was more focused. There was a group really focused on the Martin Luther King and on the south and, you know, and I remember, like we talked about, we talked we mentioned this, this, this country as good as it is, was a country where half of the country fought for the right of one human being to own another. Civil War was it was a war where someone fought for the right to own another person. So he was not with that, and obviously it was a long way uphill. So, so there was, there was, to some extent, there was separate. The SDS was both, was both was divert for a minute. One of the things that SDS fought for was ending the student curfew. You know about the student curfew?
IG: 33:22
Yes, that is another thing that I will-
SW: 33:24
That was one of the, one of the first things, the first time I went to a meeting, which was in the old student center under the Esplanade, one of the first things they talked about was the curfew. Because if you were a female, you had to have you did not get a key. They locked the door. I do not remember what time it was during the week. It was one certain time, and then then on the Friday night and Saturday night, it was a little bit later, but it was still they locked it. Now they did not lock my door, only the woman's dorm. So SDS, one of the first things that we did was to fight against the curfew. When we had petitions, we sent it around. These the mailboxes were. They were not in the student center. There was a building, so I do not remember what the mailboxes were. I remember I was box 38 Harpur College, but I do not remember where they were. You used to there was a, I think was a combination. I do not remember, but they would, we would stuff these petitions in the mailbox that in the curfew that was when big things that SDS did was fight for that. Because I remember I went out with this girl, and we got back late, and she was locked out and she was suspended, and nothing happened to me. Nothing. I mean, I nothing happened to me. Yeah, we felt horrible.
IG: 34:48
It is.
SW: 34:50
I felt horrible. I mean, we did not go to bed together. We just-just thought we would just, there was this hill that led to the gym. The gym was down here with the students was here; it was like a hill, and it was sitting on the hill and talking just and we went back and it was locked.
IG: 35:07
Yeah.
SW: 35:09
Now if you but if you were 21 you got a key. So if you were, like a junior or senior, and you were 21 years old, you did not have the curfew for a female. So-so-so that was one of the things we did.
IG: 35:22
For a woman, for female and-and [crosstalk]
SW: 35:25
Men did not need a key. I mean, there was no [crosstalk]
IG: 35:27
Female after 21 they did not need a key.
SW: 35:30
They did not need the kid. No, they got a key. I am sorry they did not get locked out. In other words, you could not get into the dorm after they locked unless you had a key. Was a little, you know, [inaudible] regular key. Yeah, so, but you got the key if you were 21 so, um, but you could drink when you were 18. So you get drunk. Mr. Curfew, get suspended. So, but you could not vote. Can vote in 21, but anyway, so that was one of the things that they were for. But then we talked about the war, the draft, one of the things that we did in, I forget which year it was, we had an intense debate about the Selective Service Exam. You are familiar with that?
IG: 36:21
I do not think so.
SW: 36:22
Okay, I forget when, what year was, when I was a sophomore or junior. I Think, I think Junior, it does not really matter. But Johnson, if you were in college, you were deferred from the draft, you had to register when you were 18 with your local board, and then if you were in school, you had what was known as a 2s which was a student deferment. But what Johnson did was, what was have a test, because he said that they wanted more manpower in the army, they wanted less student deferments, so they-they gave a test in the spring of the academic year, and the test was to select an exam just the general like, like a College Board test, like ETs and-and the test was being given in the gym, and there was only one gym, and you went down this, the main road of down this hill, and to the right there was a gym. And in the gym, they set up chairs, and they had this exam. So we were debated. We were against the exam, but then some of us said, “Well, look, you know, it is fine to be against the exam and not take it,” but what if they actually use this exam for the student deferment would be deprived if we, if we prevented other students from taking it, would we be giving them a ticket to Vietnam, getting rid of the 2s so they were back and forth, and anyway, it went the way the pro- We decided to protest it anyway and tell people not to take it. I did not take it. I did not take the test, but that was the decision I made for myself, but we wanted to make the decision for everyone else, so that was the debate. And debate was that we were going to make the decision for everyone else, not let them take it. But we never did that. But I remember we wanted to do that, but we did not. so. So it was not the homework. It was not, you know, everyone did not agree with every you know, it was not like-
IG: 38:26
How many were you? How many were you in the SDS?
SW: 38:32
Not a lot.
IG: 38:34
100?
SW: 38:35
No-no-no. Not the whole, the whole, no, 40, 50, maybe less, maybe less. We did not come to we did not come to meetings. Some people signed up. But-one of the reasons I signed up, there was a very attractive girl who said, you should because I was active. I mean, I did make my political views known. This is very attractive girl who came up to me says, Why did not you, why do not you go to an SDS meeting? And that is why I went for the first one.
IG: 39:16
Well, it is a good enough reason.
SW: 39:19
Yeah, but-but, I mean, most meetings, then they are not that many people. It would be, I mean, there may be 50 total in the whole thing, but there were, you know, maybe 10, 20, would come, maybe 10 would come. But we were active, like we got these petitions for the for the-in the curfew, we tried to block the-the Selective Service Exam, we-we put up the posters. Did you ever see the poster? Girls say yes, the boys who say no.
IG: 39:59
No-no. That is, that is funny. So there were, were they? Were there females in SDS?
SW: 40:07
Of course.
IG: 40:08
Of course, yes.
SW: 40:09
Yeah-yeah-yeah.
IG: 40:15
Very funny.
SW: 40:15
Sponsored there by the protest against the army. We put them up in dormitories. And we actually encouraged, for selfish region- reasons, also, we actually encouraged women to, you know, support the anti-war movement by, you know, free love, just-just, you know, resist the draft, go to go to a protest, and we will get sex. I am not kidding. That is, that was one of the things we talked about, you know, just-just doing that. There was no aids, there was none of that stuff there.
IG: 40:53
Or it was not known about.
SW: 40:54
It was known about, I do not think there was, was there back in the (19)60s. No, I do not know. It does not really matter, but that is what happened. So, you know, experimented. I mean, we were not the same, like the SDS started in Wisconsin with the Port Huron manifesto statement, you know.
IG: 41:15
How were you different?
SW: 41:17
Because we were not really part of, like, like a fraternity, like a national group, and we did not really get involved with them.
IG: 41:23
Right.
SW: 41:24
You know, there was not like a, it was not the it was not a unified thing. It was not like a, was not like the Democratic party with a Democratic National Committee. There was the Port Huron statement, and they probably did have involvement at Columbia, where they had the student strikes. CCNY had student strikes in the in the Lewisohn Stadium, I think was called [crosstalk]But we were a very small school and-and we did not, we did not have much to do with any national, any other-other SDS. We were basically contained.
IG: 42:00
But you got your messages.
SW: 42:03
Yeah.
IG: 42:03
Platform-
SW: 42:04
Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, we did. We did communicate, yeah. We did communicate it, but we did not get Yeah.
IG: 42:08
And how did you communicate with them? With-with-with central [crosstalk]
SW: 42:15
Yeah-yeah, no.
IG: 42:16
So what was [crosstalk]
SW: 42:19
We got brochures from them. I remember getting box, a box of brochures. We got a box of those posters girls, you know, things like that.
IG: 42:27
That is interesting.
SW: 42:28
-to put up on the wall.
IG: 42:31
So we touched on this a little describe to me what your- the social scene was at Harpur College. Was it a party school? What is it? What did it have a reputation of being a party school at the time?
SW: 42:46
No, did not.
IG: 42:46
It did not.
SW: 42:47
It was and it was serious. It was serious. Was serious, but it was fun. there- was it was fun. It was not fun because we know it got drunk or anything like that. First of all, you only have to be 18 to drink, so it was no big deal. I mean, you know, I drank when I could get a drink when I graduated high school, but legally, no bar. I mean, it is, you know, there was a we did not get drunk when, I guess we did sometimes, but it was not, it was not the big thing. No, it was not, was not the party school. We had fun. We had, we had, I remember seeing the Beach Boys at was not there. We went up. I remember a group of us went up to Ithaca, the Cornell, The Beach Boys performed. I remember seeing the [inaudible] Erin Quartet.
IG: 42:56
Yeah, Oh, yes, they are still around.
SW: 43:35
They are?
Third speaker 43:36
I have a question, what were you doing? Like, other than attending classes, like when you are not going to school, or during the weekend? What were the like- Some of the activities?
IG: 43:36
Yes.
SW: 43:36
They were in residence, I think so, yeah, in Binghamton. So they- we- I remember seeing the great, great they had great entertainment that we saw. What is his name, if you have Max Morath. He did Ragtime. Did a show there. It was very crowded. Did that. It was, it was a lot of fun, you know, this, you know, other than the pervasive fear that we had with the war lingering over us when we graduated, it was, it was a lot of fun. There was, there was, you know, no, it was not, was not the party school. No serious students. We took academia seriously. We took politics seriously, and close relationships. And there was, there was, like, free love, but, you know, but that was pervasive. I think then, maybe now too, I do not know. Well, I was on the debate team, so we traveled to various schools like you saw that thing from. Lehigh University. We traveled to New York City. We stayed at a hotel on the Grand Concourse, concourse Plaza Hotel where the Yankees stayed. We actually had the first- where they had one of the first UN meetings there at the concourse Plaza. So we traveled. So I was the debate team. I was on services for youth, where we work with poor children in Binghamton, I was in SDS. We did. We went with the brochures rallies. We encouraged people to protest. A group of a group of them organized a bus to the south, I did not go. I do not remember, I do not remember where the dream. I thought that someone got killed, but I am not sure it was my house, school, or someone who went along. Yeah, I did not go this. I cannot think what happened. I did go to Washington, so we sponsored that. What else did I do? I worked. I worked in the in the Music Library, Music Library.
IG: 46:08
that like, what did you do?
SW: 46:12
We put on music. In other words, you would sit there, like, if you were taking music appreciation, you would sit there and put on headphones [crosstalk] and Beethoven's Ninth, and then we would, I would be in the control room, and I would put on a record with Beethoven's Ninth, and I would say, plug it to seat nine, right? There was no mp3, so things like that. So I worked there, and there was a language lab. What we do? You win, and then you put on headphones and you listen to German or Russian, yeah, and you would repeat. They would say, you know, guten tag, guten tag. So some people work there, but I remember working in the music. I had another job one of the summers I was up there driving a tractor on a golf course. I got paid $8 an hour, which is a lot then.
IG: 46:19
Yeah, I remember yeah music library [crosstalk] it was, it was probably a lot in in certain parts of the country.
SW: 47:07
Yeah-yeah, so that is one thing [crosstalk]
IG: 47:09
So were you self-sufficient, pretty much with your scholarship and the money that you earned from part time jobs? Or-
SW: 47:17
Yeah-yeah.
IG: 47:17
It is tremendous.
SW: 47:17
Yeah. Had to be.
IG: 47:17
You had to be.
SW: 47:21
Yeah. Yeah. I also, once, one summer, I worked in the I came back and I mother had my mother lived in the Bronx. My father already died, and I worked in the New York Public Library, actually, oh yes, from [inadible]. You know what I found them, I could bring it down later, I found the letter that I wrote saying, I think I am going to go into politics, to the person in the library on Harpur stationary. I will give it to you. I will give with the stuff. When we are finished, I will bring it down.
IG: 47:53
Yeah. Was this is [crosstalk]
SW: 47:58
I never went into politics. I never did.
IG: 48:00
No-no speaking about politics, was there recruitment for the war on campus?
SW: 48:05
No, that is not that I remember, I-
IG: 48:09
-not that you remember. So do you think that that was unusual for because of the constituency?
SW: 48:16
We did not have ROTC.
IG: 48:17
I see.
SW: 48:18
I mean, other schools did. We did not. First of the school is too small. We never had it. We did not have France either. I mean that to their fraternities.
Third speaker: 48:25
They have now.
SW: 48:27
Do they do? We did not. We did not have them. We had no fraternities. We had, we had society. They had, I was not a member of it. There was a Greeks society, but it was not fraternities. I do not know what it was, because I It was not very big, it was not very popular, and I do not know anyone who was in it, so, but there was no recruitment. There was no ROTC there was [crosstalk].
Third speaker 48:28
Oh yeah.
IG: 48:49
That-that answers the question. So what was residential life like? What did you do for entertainment?
SW: 48:56
Well, there was, there was a TV in the lounge. There was only one TV, and it was in the lounges, black and white TV. The lounge was in the first floor. If you went into Champlain Hall, let us see. There were two dormitories that faced each other, Champlain, I think, and something else.
IG: 49:15
Right.
SW: 49:16
And the first semester was in the one on the left. I do not remember what a name of it was. And then the go at the-the entrance was, let us see, there was a walkway, and then the entrance was this way, perpendicular to the walkway, and go in, and you wind up in the lounge, and there was a TV there. I remember seeing Ed Sullivan seeing the Beatles. We all sat around.
IG: 49:39
I remember that too.
SW: 49:40
The Beatles is on the Sullivan show. Yeah, that is where we watch the Kennedy funeral, and everyone was crying. And go to the Student Center. We go to a place [inaudible], and we go to a place called Sharkies. They had something called spiedie. It was like something on a skewer. Yeah, I do not know what it was.
Third speaker 50:08
They still have that. Not Sharkies I do not know but spiedies, chicken spiedies.
SW: 50:09
Sharkies, yeah. I do not think it was chicken, I would not eat it now, but-
Third speaker 50:16
Yeah.
SW: 50:17
I do not know what it was. So we did things like that. We had these, the SDS, we had the other clubs. I mean, there was always something to do. It was always, you know, there was a theater. If you faced the student, if you went up to the main driveway, and then you went down the circular thing to the right, and the movie where you saw those me and my friend breaking into the window. There was a theater in that building, and they had entertainment there. It was, it was, was fun. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun, actually.
IG: 50:51
So were you in a in a kind of a circle with a lot of girls as well? It was, there, were there sort of mixing of the girls, it was everybody went out together. Or did you go out in pairs? Or, I mean, where did you go? Like [crosstalk]
SW: 51:08
When you went to Shark- when you went to Sharkies, would go-
IG: 51:10
Yeah.
SW: 51:13
-in-
IG: 51:13
Yeah.
SW: 51:14
Boys and girls would go.
IG: 51:15
Yeah.
SW: 51:16
The thing with the debate society.
IG: 51:19
Yeah.
SW: 51:20
Boys and girls would go, there was no coed dorm. SDS, boys and girls that the video I showed you at Vasilew's House you saw female students and male students.
IG: 51:28
Yeah.
SW: 51:30
Kadish, if you are asking, give Kadish my name and just home Stephen Weiss and in the apartment in Vestal and the anti-war meetings. I mean, if he is still there, he will remember that. And his first wife, because he came there, he used to use the bum there, yeah, yeah. And one of his, one of his best students, was the kid running for the bus with the little stick they said, is dead now. His name was David Lorden, remember the name? You mentioned that to Mr. Katie, Professor Katie, she remember him too, as we used to go, yeah. But then, no, that was coed. We used to do things. You know, sometimes we students was, I forgot the name of it. That is my senior moment with the kids what I said was-
IG: 52:23
Well, how did the faculty regard your you know, social interactions your dating. Do they get involved in it? I mean, or rather the supervisors, were they kind of scrutinizing what you were doing after-
SW: 52:42
What surprises?
IG: 52:44
Did not you have RA resident assistance or any kind of supervision in your dorms? Because obviously there was somebody monitoring your comings and goings with the curfew, right?
SW: 52:58
But we did not have a curfew.
IG: 52:59
You did not have a curfew, but the girls did.
SW: 53:01
Yeah, I do not know. I do not I have no idea what was in the girls, but in the men, let me just think we did. I am sorry.
Third speaker: 53:09
Not curfew, but maybe like rules, that-
SW: 53:12
There were rules, but let me just think there was a there was a woman almost like a den mother for the Cub Scouts. There was no there was an older woman who I do not know what her involvement was, I mean, do you know what I am talking about? There was some, there was a woman who was like, part of out from Champlain. She was, she was like the den mother-
IG: 53:35
Maybe she was-
SW: 53:36
-for Champlain. And this other dorm that was quite opposite, this walkway, no Champlain would be here. This other dorm was here, and the left one, I am indicating left and the right, lawyer talk, indicating, but uh, and there was this woman, no, she was not a resident assistant. She was employed, I guess, by Harpur. But I do not remember they may have been. I do not remember what you would call I know RAs, because my four kids went to colleges and they were RAS but I do not remember that at Harpur. That does not mean they were not.
IG: 54:08
I mean, I am I see a little bit of a discrepancy here, because on the one hand, you talk about free love, and that must have been taking place somewhere.
SW: 54:20
Right.
IG: 54:20
And on the other hand, there were curfews for female students-
SW: 54:24
Right-right.
IG: 54:24
-and if they were just a few minutes late, they would be suspended.
SW: 54:28
Right.
IG: 54:29
So-so where was there-
SW: 54:32
Was, there was the-
IG: 54:34
-happening.
SW: 54:35
There was outdoors. There was this hill-
IG: 54:37
Yeah.
SW: 54:37
-that led down, I remember this hill that that went from where the dorms were down to the-
IG: 54:44
Right.
SW: 54:44
-gym, and lots of kids hung out there.
IG: 54:46
Yeah.
SW: 54:47
There were people with cars and doing the back seat of the car.
IG: 54:52
Okay.
SW: 54:57
I remember doing the back seat of a Volkswagen.
IG: 54:58
Yeah.
SW: 54:59
Yeah. I mean, you did what you had to do, but no, but there was-
IG: 55:02
Yeah-yeah.
SW: 55:07
But you could the girls could not go, wait. Oh yeah, you could wait. I am trying to think some rule that your feet had to be on the ground, wait-
IG: 55:16
Yeah.
SW: 55:17
-your feet had to be on the ground. [crosstalk] Or, that rings a bell. I do not remember what that was.
IG: 55:22
Right, I forgot exactly, but yeah, along those lines.
SW: 55:24
Yeah, you could visit, but your feet had to be on the ground. Door open [crosstalk]
IG: 55:27
One-one of the you know members, well, the member of the office is sex, or had to have at least one foot on the ground.
SW: 55:36
Yeah-yeah. But who would check? But then the door had to be open, so there must be somebody.
IG: 55:40
Somebody could not be lying,
SW: 55:41
Right. Yeah, but-but there must have been someone to check it. I mean, there must have been some walking by.
IG: 55:46
Exactly-exactly [crosstalk]
SW: 55:46
I do not remember who that could have been.
IG: 55:48
Not hearing with that.
SW: 55:49
I have no idea. I do not remember, but I am- just rang a bell about feet on the ground. I just-just thought of that right now.
IG: 55:55
Yeah-yeah. I heard about that too.
Third speaker: 55:58
Could you visit the girls' dorm?
SW: 56:01
During the certain hours she could it was visible and that we had that feet on the ground, yeah, certain hours during the day, you could go into the other dormitory and go upstairs, they said the hours, and you could do that. There were not there was no men's room bathroom in the girls dorm, and we could not use their bathroom, and there was no girl's bathroom in the men's dorm, but you could visit. And it was said [inaudible] maybe, maybe was one to four or something on certain days, on the weekend. I do not remember what it was, but yeah, you could, and the door had to be opened. And the rule was both feet or one foot on the ground with the door open. Remember that. But when you want to have sex, you have sex, you find a place to do it.
IG: 56:47
Yeah.
SW: 56:47
I mean that there is no-
IG: 56:48
Do you think that expectations about sex and marriage were changing very much then that, you know, the free love, of course, does not equate, you know, the expectation is that it, it will not necessarily lead to marriage. So-
SW: 57:08
Just as no, there was no reason not to enjoy that feeling.
IG: 57:12
Yeah.
SW: 57:12
Just because you are not going to get married [crosstalk] or you are going to go your way.
IG: 57:15
I am just sort of trying to get [crosstalk]
SW: 57:21
People expected to get married. Yeah, I expected to get married someday. The girls that I knew expected to get married, not necessarily to me. I do not know any girl back then who wanted to marry me. Now, whoever would ever, ever think of marrying someone like me? I do not think I was-
IG: 57:36
What were you like back then?
SW: 57:38
I remember doc- I remember Dr Vasilew said-said to me personally. He said a girl would probably think twice because of your childhood, you know, like him broken home and you do not like to visit [inaudible], you know, he said that probably would have an effect on how, how I would relate to a partner, the type of relationship. He actually said that to me. Dr. Vasilew, I remember it very clearly, so-
IG: 58:11
That is very prescient of him, you know, because people were not necessarily talking like that back then.
SW: 58:16
Oh, he said that to me. Oh, yeah, he did. Meanwhile, I have been married at the same woman since 1974 it can look very well, no, that is something, you know there, but, um, yeah, but people expected to get married, but not necessarily to the people that they went to bed with then, and also people disappeared. now they went, well, they went a different way. This is an out of town college with a trimester program where people, you know, I, there was one time I went three semesters and took off a semester. I mean, you know, then someone else would not be there, and then when it come back a semester later.
IG: 58:56
Right.
SW: 58:56
And then, you know, we did not have emails. I lost contact with a lot of people because there was no email. You did not do an email, if you did not write a letter. I have letters upstairs that I wrote to some people, but when I left Binghamton, I mean, I could not email, you know, my old roommate, my kids, they still email roommates, they email friends from high school. And I could not, and we did not do that. So you lost contact. If you did not write a long hand letter, that was it, and you did not call, because it is not, you know, unlimited, you know, calls on the cell phone.
IG: 59:33
So how did you stay in touch, because clearly you-you know the face of some of your classmates.
SW: 59:40
The only reason I know faces, I looked them up on the on the Binghamton. I learned that, well, I learned that Harvey Bournfield died. Who was he was the one in the video, because I tried to email him. I kind of classmates.com recently, five years ago, and I remember, and I. And then I-I had a phone number, I called him and actually got his son, and I found out that I had missed him by a year, and he died of cancer. So I sent his son a copy of that video. I said, I have a video of your father you may want to see, because he was the one climbing through the window. So, you know, I said that to me, really, he liked that so, but that is that I learned about Dave Lawton, who I was on the debate team and knew Dr Kadesh. I found that he died because I checked him on the alumni page. I checked names before the reunion, before the October. That is the only reason I know otherwise I will not know, yeah, and we did not keep touch. No.
IG: 59:45
Were you? You said that you know Binghamton or Harpur College was felt like a family that you had not had with your own-
SW: 1:00:50
To me, not necessarily to people who did have a family. It is all subjective.
IG: 1:00:56
Of course, we are talking about your experience. So were you very saddened when you graduated and you had to leave this family?
SW: 1:01:05
No, that is a very interesting question. I actually thought about that recently, because I was talking to my wife about that I want before we went back to that reunion. I wondered why I was not.
IG: 1:01:19
Yeah.
SW: 1:01:20
I mean, I really wondered about myself, why? Why was not I sad about leaving like, like my old my last roommate was a fellow by the name of Ira Mintzer. And we were close. We were good friends. We went on double date, double dates together. We had an apartment in Vestal near the Vestal High School. And, you know, I had left in the I left Binghamton, and that was it. No contact, no letters. You want to hear an interesting story about Ira Mintzer.
IG: 1:01:20
Yes.
SW: 1:01:23
So I am on Facebook, so I searched for some names. I come across Ira Mintzer. I remember he wanted to be a doctor. So Ira Mintzer doctor in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So I contacted him, because my old roommate, and two years ago, my wife and I were going up to Boston, so I said, “We are coming up to Boston.” He had me at his house for dinner, and his wife-
IG: 1:02:24
How nice!
SW: 1:02:25
-had not seen him since 1967 this was two years ago, since 2015 and got along as if, as if, we just graduated. So it is Facebook.
IG: 1:02:44
You probably felt connected with him.
SW: 1:02:47
Yeah, no. Now we come with now we write each other. I mean, on Facebook, we do not, we do not write. But now you do not have to send letter. You do not the call. I mean, you just there. It is, yeah, indicating with my fingers, yeah, no. So.
IG: 1:03:00
Maybe-maybe.
SW: 1:03:02
I do not know why I did not feel that, but other people, other people would have cried graduation. I maybe it is a defect in my personality.
IG: 1:03:10
No, maybe it gave you what you needed, and that was it.
SW: 1:03:13
Yeah, it was time to was time to move on.
IG: 1:03:16
Time to go.
SW: 1:03:17
Well, it is time to move on. I moved. I guess that is good. Maybe, you know, yeah, but I did, yeah, well, I do not know, but yeah, but I did not feel I felt glad to leave my home and go there.
IG: 1:03:34
Yeah.
SW: 1:03:35
I was happy when I was there. Other the anxiety that was pervasive in the (19)60s, and I was but I was not sad when it came time to leave. It was time to leave.
IG: 1:03:45
Yeah.
SW: 1:03:46
I did keep in touch with Dr Vasilew.
IG: 1:03:48
Oh.
SW: 1:03:50
By-by letter, we wrote each other. I would write him, and he would write me, not frequently, maybe a few times a year, but we did. But he was more than a pro- he was my coach and debating, so we would travel together the debate team. You saw that article which mentioned the debate team was not at large. It was eight of us, and I do not remember, but it was not large, so we were close group also. And you know, it was also like a cub master, and I was friends with his kid. I was friends with his kids, but when we went there, we played with his kids ball. He had three kids, daughter and two sons.
IG: 1:04:32
When you look back on this experience at Harpur College, what do you think you know? How do you think it changed you? What did it give you? You said [crosstalk]
SW: 1:04:46
Liberal arts education, yeah, and nothing with the clubs or anything else. The edge, I felt like the classes were small. We did not have any. There was one hall. All that looked like a lecture hall, and that was across the street from across the lawn, from the library. There was a new building, which, I mean, I think was science or something. I remember what it was, and that had a lecture hall, and I remember taking Psychology 101, and that was a lecture hall. Even then there was, was not a lot of students. Every other class I had was in the classroom not much bigger than the classroom I had in high school, elementary school, which was, you know, what, was not big. So we were really, I mean, it was really an intimate educational environment, you know, what, the way you picture something in the in the Aristotle or the Socrates, and, you know, he really, it was really back and forth. You know, when we this, when Dr. Carlip, discussed the Mont Pèlerin Society, when we really discussed it. Remember discussing, well, the-the outcome of that was Reagan and taking back, undoing the New Deal, but really with their motives. And I remember debating it, their motives, to some extent, were good motives, because they were afraid of central government, the fascism and everything else that came with it. And I remember debating it back and forth, maybe like 15 of us in the class and Dr. Carlip, and every once in a while, he would have a sofa to his house for a class. So these were not big classes. So it was, I think I really learned a lot. I mean, my notebook, I used to, I used to type my notes, and it was just, was just, I mean, I really felt I got an unbelievable education. I mean, I remember just, I just remember things that these professors said I. I remember my English. I remember my English professor-
IG: 1:06:45
For example, give us, give us some, you know, memorable things that they have told you that have influenced your thinking.
SW: 1:06:52
Okay. they want my-my English, one of my English professors who had us to read The Rubaiyat [Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám]. So, I mean, I read that to my kids when they were young. the moving finger writes. You know that right? You know the Rubaiyat so. So just remember, I remember, I am saying "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit ". Can call it back the cancel half a line or your tears wash out of it. I just remember standing up there. I remember, remember how that influenced a young student, you know, did? I am a devout atheist. Let me enforce that. So just and Dr. Melville [Robert Melville], who he was an advisor to the House Committee on sales and use tax. So in my because of that, just because of him, yeah, I am just getting a notebook because of Dr. Melville and when they read, I read the bill, it was just a bill. But this was the bill back then, HR, 11, 798, he was the, he was the member of Congress in Binghamton.
IG: 1:08:22
Oh, wow.
SW: 1:08:23
And since Dr. Melville was involved in that, I mean, I wanted to research it, so I read it on my own, because, because of him, so, you know, and I wrote a paper about it. I think that is my paper. I am not sure. Is that about the sales, news, tax-
IG: 1:08:47
-introduction, apology and justification? Is that it?
SW: 1:08:51
Oh, I know what that was. Yeah, about economics. I do not remember.
IG: 1:08:57
Yeah-yeah, theory and you agree beginning.
SW: 1:09:03
But you could see what the type of student there was by looking at my notebook. I mean, there is my notes-notes. I mean, I typed everything, but I really like it really felt like, like a partnership. Let us pull my rope. I mean, I really, I really felt like there was a partnership between the students and the professors in the academic environment that we learned from each other. I said it was almost like the what you would think the Greek learning system was. So that is what, that is what I got out of it. I do not know if they do that now, I think the classes are bigger now, yeah, and the money's cut back now. I mean, education was still highly valued then by our society.
Third speaker 1:09:50
Oh, graduate level, you get that?
SW: 1:09:53
I am sure you do.
Third speaker: 1:09:54
But undergraduate level , you do not.
SW: 1:09:56
Oh, we got it. My undergraduate level, we got small class. Is, we delved into things deeply. We debated them.
Third speaker: 1:10:04
You describe like, what you describe here sounds like, you know, graduate [crosstalk]
IG: 1:10:12
Well or a very, you know, exclusive private college, right?
SW: 1:10:18
It was like that. It was free. It was great. I do not believe I did all this. I am looking at these notes. I must have lunatic. I must have been very compulsive. My God.
Third speaker: 1:10:18
Yeah.
IG: 1:10:34
So how do you think that the college prepared you for your future life, what, what imprint did it leave on you? What, you know, in a quality of kind of thinking, or how did it-
SW: 1:10:50
I think it made me help, make me a better human being. When my first job as a lawyer was legal aid, criminal, you know, I did not, was not there for the big bucks or anything I really want. I mean, that is the only job I applied for. That is the only thing I wanted to do. So, I do not know. I think it helped with everything. I think it was, it even helped me be a better husband and parent. I mean my kids. I mean I am proud of them. That is my four kids up there, but I mean they at Thanksgiving. I mean, we all went around to say what we are thankful for. We are all eight. We are all atheists, but we went around, but one of them things, Alex said, my youngest son, he said, I am thankful for a close knit, happy family. that was just, I mean, you know, just. And one of the things I remember, one of the things I envied of Dr. Vasilew, was because I came from a broken home, was to see him and his family when he took a sit into the to the house and so, so I think it helped me be, you know, and be a better lawyer, too. I think that the more liberal your education, the better you could be at whatever you do, whether you are a doctor or lawyer. So it helped me, you know, with the assigned counsel, because you were assigned as legal aid to defend people, I just, you know, I understood that, but for the grace of God, no, I so. So, yeah, I think, I think the education I got there really carried me far.
IG: 1:12:34
So any thoughts for the future of how, of what elements, what ingredients are most essential for the kind of educational experience that you were provided?
SW: 1:12:47
I think the most important thing, I disagree with what Obama talked about, and I supported Obama at both times, but when he talked about, you know, maybe not everyone, maybe we should have so much of a liberal arts education, but should prepare people for jobs and things like they said that.
IG: 1:13:05
Yeah.
SW: 1:13:06
I disagree. I think, I think, if you an educated society is the best guarantee of freedom of-of, you know, universal health care, of opportunity and-and that is a liberal arts education. You have to literature, math, science, history, economics. Mont Pèlerin, you went to study that, unless you went to economics. But that is really, that is really a philosophical Ryan [Paul Ryan], the House of Speaker is a Mont Pèlerin type person, right? I mean, he really believes that the government has no business in Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid. Well, that is right out of Mont Pèlerin's first year away from the New Deal or away from Nazism or away from the central government. So I think that a well-educated society, liberal arts is the most important thing. I think everyone should have liberal arts education. I mean, I do not know how we can do that. You know, Bernie Sanders said education for all, but the society, I do not think, is, is moving away from it.
IG: 1:14:19
Right.
SW: 1:14:19
You know, the-the thing that, and a non-educated society is more susceptible to fear. I mean, when you are, you know, if you are educated, then, then you-you can, you could, like we did in the classes in college, you know, you could look at something and ask, this, is this makes sense? Like Vietnam? Does this make sense? Does it make sense to go to war when, when a group of fanatics bomb the World Trade Center? Does it make more sense to have police work and deal with them and fight them, and that is and that is not a war, you know? Yeah, you use a reason, but you but, but that is the luxury of an. Educated person, but, but, but we should recognize that it is in our interest to have our neighbors educated, otherwise our neighbors will come at us with the pitchforks. You know, the educated one is not because, so it is a selfish reason, just like, Why was I against the war in Vietnam? Or part of it was altruistic, but part of it was selfish, so, but there is nothing wrong with having a selfish component, because we are people, so that is fine. So that is what I that is what I think, you know, and we have to invest more, but we are not going in that direction. I just told my son when he was here for Thanksgiving, I said, Why do not you go into politics? My youngest son-
IG: 1:15:39
But you know, going to Harpur College at the time that you did, you know, during the mid (19)60s, when the country was really going through cataclysmic changes, you know, maybe intensified your educational experience.
SW: 1:15:56
Of course it did. Yeah, we were forced to be involved. Well, part of it was the Selective Service system. You were forced. You could not-not be involved. You could choose not to take the exam in the gym, but you were involved with the ticket or not. You know, it is like Moby Dick in the whale. You know, you can decide to throw a spear into Moby Dick or not. The whale is going to be there. It is there. So, you know, we were involved with the you could not-not be involved. You know, we got those develops like I am going to give you from the draft, but we were involved, the civil rights movement. We were involved. There were people getting angry. Out of out of SDS, came the Black Panthers, yeah, [inaudible] the SDS, you know, so you we were involved, and there was nowhere not to be. There was areas of Binghamton where you would be afraid to walk because of blacks, and there were other bars. There was a bar that I remember, there was a street that was parallel to Vestal Parkway, where the we passed by, where the Dean's house was, and there is still a lot of house there the dean.
IG: 1:16:59
I think so [crosstalk]
SW: 1:17:01
Continued down all the way, almost like Binghamton, before the bridges, there was like a bar, was a black bar, and they used to charge what was known as white tax for the beer. So like, if you were a black person, you paid x for the beer, and if you were a white kid like me, you would pay 2x for the beer.
IG: 1:17:18
Yeah, that is like the sub the Soviet Union used to have a dual-
SW: 1:17:23
Yeah, the friendship currents, yeah. I remember that, yeah. I remember the [inaudible] Street and going, yeah-yeah.
Third speaker: 1:17:30
How was the campus then, like, were there any black students in the campus? Like-
SW: 1:17:38
Very, actually, I only remember one. He was next. He was a- an exchange student from Kenya.
Third speaker: 1:17:48
Africa, not America.
SW: 1:17:49
Not an American. Like, no, I do not remember.
Third speaker: 1:17:52
Not even one?
SW: 1:17:52
I do not remember. I do not remember one look at the yearbook from (19)67 and (19)66 it is in the-the Alumni Center. I do not think, yeah, I do not, I do not remember any black students. No.
IG: 1:18:03
Most of the students were from New York City, from Long Island.
SW: 1:18:06
New York City and Long Island, yeah, and-
Third speaker: 1:18:09
Like, when you compare boys versus girls, like, majority of them like boys, right? Not many women?
SW: 1:18:18
No, there were a lot of girls there, you know? I mean, I did not seem like I was, I mean, I went Brooklyn Tech, where I went to high school as an old boy school. So it was so refreshing, because it was coed, yeah, but I did not feel that, that, that we outnumbered them by any significant amount, that would no there may have been, but I do not I in my subjective memory. No.
Third speaker 1:18:19
No, yeah, I am asking how you remember.
SW: 1:18:34
Yeah, no, I do not, I do not remember it being overwhelmingly male. No. SDS had a lot of SDS had a lot of girls in it. Actually, that was an attraction, but they had a lot of girls, and they were not subject to the draft, but there were a lot of girls there.
IG: 1:19:06
So did you have any interaction with the, with, with, you know, the rest of the population in Binghamton? I mean-
SW: 1:19:16
Services for Youth.
IG: 1:19:17
Yeah-yeah, that is right, of course.
SW: 1:19:20
I do not remember how the kids got involved with us. I remember there was a-a park. If you went into Binghamton, we took him to a park. there was a zoo in the park, and you went into Binghamton and went to the right, up this little hill, there was some park there. And in the park, there was a zoo. Yeah, Ross Park.
IG: 1:19:20
It still exist.
SW: 1:19:39
Yeah. I remember taking kids there. Yes, we were involved in them, but I do not remember where the kids came from. I do not remember, but yes, we were involved. And not all of the faculties supported the anti-war group, Kadish went to my apartment to a rally. Vasilew, who I, who I liked a lot, who was the one that gave me my comment that a girl would think twice before marrying someone like you, which is true. I understand that. I mean, you know, like saying, if a plate is broken, you can glue it together, but the cracks still there. You know, so, but anyways, but he, I remember, you know, as I remember talking about the draft, and he said, he-he actually, he had two sides to him. First, he has he, he thought that the draft was appropriate. He was liberal, and on the other hand, he was not sure if we should have gotten involved in World War Two. I remember him saying that. So, which is fine, because there is no right answer. You know, it is unlike you know, two and two and was, what is the answer? There is no right answer.
IG: 1:19:40
There is no right answer.
SW: 1:21:02
No there are right questions. And then you think about the answers. So, I mean, back then, I probably was not so kind as to his response, because I thought, you know, for World War Two, we were the good guys, and to Vietnam, we had no business being there. And it is black and white. And it was not until I became more mature that I realized there is no right answer, and Vietnam is definitely wrong. And should we get involved too? Well, I still think we should have but, but there is no right answer.
IG: 1:21:28
So it, you know, again, looking back, do you think that this was among your happy the happy period?
Speaker 1 1:21:46
Yes, absolutely, I am basically, I basically became a happy person when I left home. I mean, I have a mean, that is my personality. I mean, I just my wife sometimes calls me the happy idiot. I am not kidding. No, I get happy sometimes for no reason. I mean, I because I am lucky. I mean, life has been good to me. I mean, but, but that was definitely that there was a change. It was a change for me from a miserable childhood up until I left, to-to not, you know, not being subject to that misery. So, yeah, it was definitely very happy period.
IG: 1:22:25
So you never really returned to your family.
SW: 1:22:30
Well, my parents-
IG: 1:22:30
Your parents were split up.
SW: 1:22:32
They split. [crosstalk] My mother waited until I graduated high school, and then then my father moved to, uh, an apartment in also in Flush, in Flushing off Main Street. And my mother moved to place in the Bronx called Riverdale. And-and so they lived, you know, apart. And so no, there was no home to come to. So and then I said, I tried to avoid this. I mean, I visited my father, I thought I could stand him. And as I told you, the one time that he asked me to visit him, and I said no, and then the next day I came and he was dead. So then the guilt that I felt was, you know, it took me a long time to get over that, I know. Very nice.
IG: 1:23:11
Yeah, I could imagine.
SW: 1:23:12
Because I felt, well, what if I have been there, then I would call a doctor or something, you know, but it was no.t
IG: 1:23:18
Yeah.
SW: 1:23:18
And he had been dead already he was lying in the bathroom.
IG: 1:23:20
Yeah.
SW: 1:23:21
So, but no, the college years, it was-was turning out what happened I was happy in college, basically, other than the fear. But yes.
IG: 1:23:34
So, what-what do you have any message for? You know, a future student, a future you know, listening to this tape, you know, 5-10, years from now, of how they should approach their undergraduate-
SW: 1:23:50
I would say liberal arts. Take, take, take, English literature, foreign literature, world history, American history, science, just take, take as much varied material as you can. When I went to law school, all took was law, you know my friend who is now my friend again, Ira. You know, medicine, science and medicine. But in college, you could take everything, do it. You know you could, do not take pre-law and just take poli sci or pre-med and just take science, take other things, because that will make you better at everything.
IG: 1:24:33
And for-for our politicians, for example, listening to this interview 5-10, years from now, do you have a message for them.
SW: 1:24:41
Yes, invest in education, unless you feel that the only way you will stay in office is to have an uneducated society. But if you want to make society better, then you invest in education. You know, then you realize, look, when Obama made the statement, you did not build this. Remember, he made that statement. When he was trying to convey. And he conveyed the people who understood him, educated people that, you know, the transcontinental railway, the highways, the telephone poles, all the things that people did for next to nothing made it possible for the wealthy people to have their wealth. It did not just come out of nowhere. So wars that people fought, the good wars and the bad wars, or, you know, the infrastructure, everything that existed, that people got paid nothing, or that slaves built. So that is what he meant when he said that you did not build this. He did not mean, you know, you did not build your grocery store and it is not yours. He did not because they turned it on him, like Romney turned it on him. But an educated person would understand that and would appreciate it that if I am wealthy, I mean, that is great, but, I mean, why should not other people participate in the wealth of a nation that is wealthy? Why should it just be limited to excuse me as it could be my office? No, it is not okay. So that is what, yeah, so, so for politicians edgy, if you really believe in this country, then-then education. That is the thing to invest in the most, not take away from teachers' unions and-and get and not, you know, not have, like, charter schools, where with something, we have to compete for a good school, otherwise you are stuck. I mean, I told you my public-school education was great. I mean, I it was really good. I had good teachers who were, you know, got paid well or no standards, and were respected. They were not demonized. Like, like the governor Wisconsin demonized teachers. Of course you are going to demonize a teacher if, if the only way to keep your power is to have uneducated people, like-like, like Trump said he bragged about uneducated people voting for him he bragged about it, which is true. So that is preaching to the choir.
IG: 1:27:06
Well, that is, it is preaching to the choir, of course, but other people may not be the choir listening to this. So and do you have any words for President Stinger?
SW: 1:27:18
Right now? He is the president of Harpur.
IG: 1:27:21
He is a president of the university. Would you like to impart any, any of your thoughts to him or a future president?
SW: 1:27:32
Well, he should do his best to bring, bring back true community, learning, small classes in depth learning, having faculty and students meet in each other's places of residence, like we did at barbecues. And the barbecue is not just, you know, just eating and drinking, but the barbecue is also talking about your subject and other subjects and relating, relating economics and literature and science. I mean, when you get together to barbecue, talk about all sorts of things, I think that that is the key, and that is what made it so great. Like you said, it is like a small private college, although it was not, but that is the key. Small classes, intimate settings and the environment that encourages questioning and debate, you know, so it is not my country right or wrong, it is my country. Make it better. But you know, there is no right or wrong. You should not do it that way. And you know, your emotional baggage, you know, you know, I had a lot of emotional baggage, but when I got to college, I was able to put it in the overhead bin, in a little chair, and go about my business. So, you know, so that that is, that is the key, you know, learn to be able to the baggage away.
IG: 1:28:50
Maybe it allowed you the freedom.
SW: 1:28:53
Yes.
IG: 1:28:53
You know, freedom from the emotional baggage.
SW: 1:28:57
Yes.
IG: 1:28:57
You could come back to it a different person.
SW: 1:29:00
Yes, but I have a certain but, like my wife said, I am like, I am a happy idiot, and I get happy I just do, like, Vasilew was wrong. He said, You know, he thought that I would never, actually thought I would never be able to have I-I went out with a lot of girls than in life, and I did not. And I was somewhat mean. I mean, I was nice, but-but-but, you know, like, if when I was-was not interested anymore, that was it.
IG: 1:29:29
Yeah.
SW: 1:29:31
But, yeah, that is not the way to be. But the thing is, but I learned from it and- but then I evolved. I mean, I said when I got married, I mean, you know, I very happy with it, just he would, he did not think it would ever work, but it really did. Actually, I [inaudible], my wife and I actually visited him.
IG: 1:29:52
And what did he say? Did he Did you remind him what he said?
SW: 1:29:56
No, I do not talk about that. No, you know, he said, he said, "I see you are a successful lawyer." I said “Yes,” and we talked about that, okay, no-no, I was not going to. There is no reason too. No. And then they, you know, no, but that is, that is the price I would give and have other artifacts I could show you when, once we finish talking before you go.
IG: 1:30:22
Well, I you know, do you have concluding, you know, thoughts, remarks, anything that you would like to explore? I think we covered a lot of ground.
SW: 1:30:30
No, I think, no. I think it encouraged students, no, just encourage student involvement and student involvement in politics and make-make it known that why education is important. You kind of invest in education, small classes in education, or there is no guarantee that this country will remain a democracy.
IG: 1:30:51
Yeah.
SW: 1:30:52
That is not guaranteed. It is not guaranteed.
IG: 1:30:54
There is no guarantee.
SW: 1:30:55
No, and they could very well not. And with overreactions, with-with, you know, people like Bush taking us into Iraq and-and torture becoming a norm again. You know, Guantanamo indefinite detention when lunatic Trump becomes president. You know who, who brags about, you know, fondling women and talks about arresting his opponents and egomaniac and having these Republicans love him and the Christian right loving him. I mean, yeah, a real danger here.
IG: 1:31:33
Yeah.
SW: 1:31:34
And it could happen here.
IG: 1:31:36
Yeah.
SW: 1:31:36
And it might very well happen here. So the key is just that education to get the educated people to expand like, like, we sent people from Harpur College down to the south, as I said, I personally did not go, but I know people who did, and people from SDS went, send them out to do things. I am going to a bar association meeting with us tomorrow night. One of the things we are talking about is working with the Alabama and other bar associations to get ID cards. The voters will have trouble getting ID cards, getting photographed and paying for their ID cards so they and making sure they vote, because there is voter suppression, obviously in these states. So we are thinking as a Bar Association project, almost like a school project.
IG: 1:32:19
That is wonderful.
SW: 1:32:20
Yeah. So we are thinking of doing that. So we are talking about that tomorrow night, after which we are going to go to the Algonquin hotel and drink scotch. So you-you know, lawyers find that the more Scotch they drink, the more interesting other lawyers become. So-so we do that too, yeah. Yeah. So-so that is the key to get, to get them to go out. I mean, keep the have a close community, and when you are close and secure, then you could go out.
IG: 1:32:50
Well, that is exactly what happened to you at the college, the close community. And once you-
SW: 1:32:57
With that security.
IG: 1:32:58
-security.
SW: 1:32:59
Then you are able to go out when you are insecure and you look, you know, then it is hard to go forward.
IG: 1:33:06
Yeah.
SW: 1:33:06
But so that is what you need. And then have them go out, having to, you know, help with small things, voter ID, getting out to vote, getting people to vote, you know, they suppress it by I mean, when I go to vote, I wait. I wait for one minute. I do not wait. We have, we have, we have more voting places here than the small fee community than, you know, there they have one black communities down there. They have one book, one polling place. It is open from, you know, 9:00 am on a work day to 5:00 pm they went online for three hours. You are not going to want to do that. Well, you have to make them do they have to go out there. You give them food, you know, bring out coffee. Just do it. We went that, you know, I, as I said, I did not go down south, so I am not going to say did, but people went down there and, you know, and help you got to do that. You got get a mat so you made him secure. Then come out and expand, because we are all in the same boat, right? You know, saying that, you know, I am in a lifeboat with you, and I start drilling a hole under my seat, and you say to me, what are you doing? I said, Well, same boat. Yeah, so that is my word of wisdom. Anything else?
IG: 1:34:16
I think? I think not. I think it is a great interview. Thank you very much.
SW: 1:34:21
My pleasure. I will show you like one artifact.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Stephen Norman Weiss
Subject
The topic of the resource
Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut
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Weiss, Stephen Norman ; Gashurov, Irene
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audio/mp3
Description
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Stephen Norman Weiss is an attorney in New York specializing in Litigation, Patent and Trademark and Intellectual Property cases. He is managing partner at Stephen Norman Weiss Law Office, but currently semi-retired. He pursued a liberal arts education at Harpur College, which he believes was on par with an education from an elite private college. His JD is from New York Law School.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2017-11-27
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In Copyright
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eng
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Sound
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Stephen Weiss.mp3
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2017-11-27
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Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni
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94:30 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d5bbd5ad44990c839605d73f46a2814.mp3
ab42272e6141cfd0065e2d1381398db2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Broome County Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Broome County -- History
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
Identifier
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2
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Contributor
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1977-1978
Relation
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56938">Interview with Mabel Quick</a>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
16:49 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp3
Date of Digitization
2017-03-27
Material Type
Sound
Subject LCSH
Quick, Mabel -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Mabel H. Quick</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 13 March 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Miss Quick, could you tell us something about your early beginnings, where you were born and some of your recollections of your childhood?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Miss Quick: Yes, I could. I’d be glad to. I was born in Scranton way back in 1893. I grew up in West Pittston where my father was a dentist. Later we moved to Nichols, NY, and I grew up in the West Pittston schools under the name of John but when I reached New York State I was told that if I had another name I should use it because I was going to take Regents so in this community where I am now I became known with my old name Mabel. I taught school after graduating from Cortland in Johnson City for 40 long years but we <span style="text-decoration: underline;">really</span> taught then we had classes that we were <span style="text-decoration: underline;">proud</span> to pass on they could <span style="text-decoration: underline;">read</span>—they could <span style="text-decoration: underline;">write</span>—and teaching was wonderful. We were only earning $500 a year but we could with our increments reach $1800 a year that was the limit that we could go. Well, I lived here in Johnson City came here in 1917 when I started my teaching and this was a lovely town then to be a part of to live in and it really was a pleasure. Things have changed here now—old buildings have disappeared and new ones in their place but it’s still a place I’d like to live a long long time.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I came from good old English stock. The Quick name comes—a the Quicks really came from England although they say we have Irish and Dutch mixed in a little bit and my ancestors missed the Mayflower by 2 years. They went to Holland and I tell the girls we missed the Mayflower by two years and we’re missing things ever since but we get along the Quicks are kind of lively people and they settled—helped settle this country. I’m proud of that it’s a heritage that a lot of people don’t have and we do have old Tom Quick my ancestor the first one to come over from England, Holland bought Staten Island from the Indians for a bolt of cloth. The Quick silver is now in the Metropolitan Museum and a there’s an old chest desk in a museum in New Jersey made by old Tom was given to George Washington and signed. I wish I had <span style="text-decoration: underline;">that</span> but of course I don’t but I have seen it and Tom’s oldest son got along beautifully with the Indians until they moved to Milford, Pennsylvania now. Another family came in and there was trouble over land grants and the Indians killed old Tom so Tom Jr. as we would say today sought revenge and he killed so many Indians that the government let him alone. He was not drafted for the Civil—a for the Revolutionary War and finally Tom got smallpox and died. The Indians couldn’t understand why he was put in the ground so they dug him up to see if he was dead and of course not having the techniques of medicine we have now the germs were still there the Indians caught the smallpox and Tom killed them even after he was dead. He is now—a the records we have in Cooperstown he is the character Natty Bumppo (clears throat) of ah (clears throat again) pardon me in James Fenimore Cooper’s </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Leatherstocking Tales</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> so I have a good line. I’m proud of it. I joined the D.A.R., the Daughters of the Founders of the Patriots of America, the Daughters of the Colonial Colonial Colonies of America and now I expect sometime to go further with the Huguenots of the Colonial days. It’s a privilege and an honor as I see it. Many people would like to join but can’t. Their line is not complete but I like the genealogy and am glad that I have the opportunity of being one of the early American families.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">In school well perhaps I shouldn’t get into that too much it was <span style="text-decoration: underline;">really good</span> in the old days. I don’t know <span style="text-decoration: underline;">what</span> they’re teaching them today but I am proud and glad that I taught in the early days when we could really see and know and have the experience of realizing that we had taught the children to pick up a book and read it and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">know what they read</span>. Today I wonder what they are doing. I wouldn’t want to go back and find out. I see it all over I don’t think that they could pull me back with a hay rake but I’m glad that I have lived all these 85 years and had the experiences I’ve had.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Could you tell us a little about your hobby?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Miss Quick: Yes, I have a very wonderful hobby. You know when I was teaching when I first started to teach I’d come home from school and I’d—I’d go in the kitchen—I thought food dropped into position on the table and I thought if I would go in the kitchen well maybe they’ll (clears throat) teach me to do something. When I’d reach the kitchen my aunt and my mother both wonderful cooks would say now, “Enough good cooks in the kitchen—we don’t need you.” So I got so I wouldn’t go into the kitchen I wouldn’t even come home from school, I’d patronize the antique shops because I like old things and I walked in one day to an antique shop I saw a doll lying face down. The dress was open at the back and it said, “Remember who wrote this when far away.” Well, I was intrigued so that started a wonderfully good collection. I now have between well around 400 dolls with all related items such as doll carriages and hats and furniture and chests and beds, cradles, chairs everything that might have been played with years and years ago. I’ve written an article which is being published in the </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Federated Doll News Magazine</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. I belong to two doll clubs and I have sent colored slides of my carriage in an article entitled “A Buggy for Dolly.” In each of the 35 carriages I had a lot of fun putting in a da—a doll a period that would go with the carriage one has a Charity Smith Kitty Cat the other a teddy bear and it was well received. They said it was a delightfully different approach to doll collecting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I’ve met so many wonderful people through this hobby. I’ve had exhibits oh many exhibits and a right now presently there is an exhibit (clock chimes) of the Easter parade and—and a that Roberson wanted for their Easter attraction and they came down and selected the dolls for that a occasion. At Easter time they wanted a big exhibit for their Christmas Forest so I gave them—they also came and selected what they wished and it was they told me about 2,000 people saw that. I’ve been guests at various clubs, doll clubs around the state and as I said before you meet the most charming people and I’ve enjoyed it I think that’s what has kept me going of course the family was after a while different ones the family was large my aunt, my uncle, my mother were here my sister she was an invalid for 11 years and after they all went it was a—a well even during the time when they were ill it was a life saver it sort of keeps you going. You have something to look forward to something to do and even if you don’t do it one day it’s there for the future and it what I have I think will preserve and give people an idea of what really was played with what the children really had whether they played with them or no. It was right for the period in which these very very old ladies grew up with.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Children formed more attachment to their a—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Miss Quick: When have you seen a child wheeling a doll carriage? You might see one in a store but I wouldn’t call it a doll carriage. I have the little old wooden carriages made by Joel Ellison and signed by him in the sixties. I have many wooden box carriages some made by the Whitney Carriage Co. and I also have a chests that are signed 1846. These were usually homemade things the little chests and beds and you don’t see it anymore children are—well it keeps production going now. They buy it today the child plays with it tomorrow and the next day it’s out broken and they go back and get another production is—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Everything is plastic now.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Miss Quick: Everything is plastic. There will I don’t know it isn’t saying really goodbye to the old but it’s trying now these people who would like to collect. They just have to take from what is given today and decide whether or not it will ever be collectible and will really last as the old things of—of yesteryear have done but I’m glad I have what I have. It gives me great deal of pleasure and it also gives pleasure to others.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Well, is there anything more that you would like to add?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Miss Quick: I can’t think of anything more. I think that a we’ve about covered it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Well, thank you very much for the interview Miss Quick it’s been very interesting.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Miss Quick: I’ve enjoyed it. I really have enjoyed it and as I say I meet such interesting people.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: We do. Thank you.</span></p>
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Dobandi, Susan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Quick, Mabel
Biographical Text
Mabel Quick speaks about growing up near Scranton and later in Nichols, N.Y. She discusses living and teaching in Johnson City. She discusses her ancestors coming to America from Europe, with particular focus on Tom Quick, her ancestor who purchased Staten Island from Native Americans. She discusses her membership in the Daughters of the American Revolution and related associations. She is an avid doll collector and has over 400 dolls with associated accessories; she discusses this collection and activities in which she participates related to this hobby.
Date of Interview
1978-03-13
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mabel Quick
Description
An account of the resource
Mabel Quick speaks about growing up near Scranton and later in Nichols, N.Y. She discusses living and teaching in Johnson City. She discusses her ancestors coming to America from Europe, with particular focus on Tom Quick, her ancestor who purchased Staten Island from Native Americans. She discusses her membership in the Daughters of the American Revolution and related associations. She is an avid doll collector and has over 400 dolls with associated accessories; she discusses this collection and activities in which she participates related to this hobby.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Quick, Mabel; Dobandi, Susan
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1978-03-13
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Recording 77
Subject
The topic of the resource
Quick, Mabel -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-27
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Broome County Oral History Project
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
16:49 minutes
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f0e311fc930b98671ed9b4925b795b96.mp3
230a47a39051a06ef761d0e05b33eecc
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/658c9267362880e2e70d674158dd629b.mp3
dd5de00e982da20488acc88269486a77
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Broome County Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Broome County -- History
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1977-1978
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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Streaming Audio
Streaming URL
<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56941">Interview with Leo J. Payne</a>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
33:47 minutes ; 7:19 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp3
Date of Digitization
2017-03-27
Material Type
Sound
Subject LCSH
Payne, Leo -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.)
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
BROOME COUNTY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interview with: Leo J. Payne
Interviewer: Dan O’Neil
Date of Interview: 10 February 1978
Dan: Mr. Payne, will you please tell me about your life and working experiences in the community starting with the early days, including the place of birth, education and family life with emphasis on your working experiences?
Mr. Payne: Well I, ah, of course was born in Towanda, Pennsylvania, ah, the family moved to Binghamton when I was two years old and ah, we, ah, my father went to work for Cyrus Clapp on ah Chenango Street–19 Chenango Street as a coachman and ah when I was five years old he ah went into trucking business for himself with a cart wagon and ah two horses and he moved to 25 Sherman Place. I was ah just as a small boy when ah he took me up to watch the ah ah the Courthouse burn down. We ah I saw that, that was quite a place and was up on quite a hill at that time. Now let’s see ah I ah I went to ah Carroll Street School until I was around 8 years old and then to ah Washington Street School–now the ah police station, where the Police Station used to be and ah when I was 12 years old, I went to to ah Central High School (Clock Chimes) and ah got my education there. After that I went to Riley's Business School that was oh can't think the name of that little street and ah from there I ah got a position as a Bookkeeper and Stenographer with ah Harry Doherty, who runs one of the first garages in Binghamton selling the Pierce Arrows and the White Steamers–not the Pierce Arrows, the Cadillacs and the Stanley Steamers. Ah business got bad and ah I was ah laid off. I went back to help my father then shovel coal–he used to have a contract with them and the Binghamton Cold Storage company. After about six months, a Professor Riley got me a position as a Bookkeeper and Stenographer at, ah, G.A. Glark Company in Sidney, N.Y. I stayed there until my–I worked too much inside–my Doctor told me I’d have to get outdoors or get a coffin–so the only thing I know what to do, I sold my house in Sidney and came down and bought out ah Rich ah Millard–he had that ah ah trucking business that people put him in business but he didn't want no business and so finally they ah put it up for sale but that was at the same time–so I came down and looked. He had two trucks & ah made a payment on them–I bought them. I went back to ah Sydney to get the ah ah additional loan so I could pay for it as my boss, my boss G.A. Clark's brother was President of the Sidney National Bank. Well I ah got along very good. After a couple years ah Mr. Clark came down, wanted to buy my trucks and ah have me come back to work and then my wife–I got married in between and ah at ah Cynthia Gifford, whose father was President of the ah People’s Trust Company in Sidney–he disowned her for you know ah marrying a colored man and ah we got, we got along very good. We came down to Binghamton and got married at the Centenary Church. I can remember at that time my people were living at 173 Henry Street in Binghamton. Had a, well, I got along very good by industrious working–I done a lot of work myself and I went around and worked up a very good business and finally connected with ah the Kroehler Manufacturing Company in 1930 and ah drawing furniture for them to different towns and ah I worked for them until around 1970, I think, in 1968 or 70 when I an gave ah a tractor and trailer one each to my two brothers, who were working for me and ah told them that they could go for their own as a gypsy as they had no rights–Interstate rights see, which I did have and I continued in a small way ah with a couple of moving vans doing moving jobs around ah near Binghamton as possible and in Binghamton and still doing it. Now that’s about all I ah had two children–one of my sons, Clark Payne, and we named him after my ah earlier boss in Sidney and ah he died here a short time ago and my daughter Doris is still with me and ah looking after me. I've had several heart attacks and ah two years ago I had two heart plants and ah, what you call it, pacemakers.
Dan: Pacemakers.
Mr. Payne: Put in and at the present time I'm feeling quite well.
Dan: That’s fine.
Mr. Payne: Now that’s about–
Dan: How old are you, Mr. Payne?
Mr. Payne: I’m 80–89 years old that 1st of February.
Dan: Great, great, great. Now what year did you buy the Richard Millard Company?
Mr. Payne: 1917.
Dan: 1917 and when did you get married–what year?
Mr. Payne: Oh dear, let’s see, 1913.
Dan: 1913
Mr. Payne: Well I was married twice.
Dan: I see.
Mr. Payne: I was married in 1910 the first time. My wife died of childbirth.
Dan: Oh.
Mr. Payne: And they had ah close the operation.
Dan: I see, did the baby die too?
Mr. Payne: They died before.
Dan: Oh.
Mr. Payne: So they had to force the operation but they didn’t have no hospitals there in Sidney and they just ah a couple of Doctors and ah they ah charged an operation with car batteries like–yeah they were car batteries some way but ah she only lived two days afterwards.
Dan: I see, I see.
Mr. Payne: But the second time, I was married in 1913.
Dan: In 1913 the second time and when did your wife die or is she still
livine?
Mr. Payne (to daughter Doris): Oh when did your Mother die, do you remember?
Doris: December 7th ‘69.
Dan: December 7th ‘69. Now you mentioned that you were kind of disowned by the family because ah of–
Mr. Payne: Of racial–
Dan: Of racial discrimination there, yeah. Now did you encounter any racial discrimination here, Mr Payne?
Mr. Payne: I, I never ah ah had ah any ah racial ah ah trouble here in Binghamton at all–never.
Dan: Never.
Mr. Payne: I went any place anybody else could go and was received.
Dan: Um hum.
Mr. Payne: ‘Cause I always tried to live a life that people would respect me. I joined the Masonic Lodge as soon as I could join and I ah was very ah enthusiastic about Masonic work and I finally ah ah rose up until now I am a Past Grand Master of the State Prince Hall affiliation of Masonic work.
Dan: What church do you belong to?
Mr. Payne: Trinity M.E. Zion.
Dan: OK, do you belong to any clubs there at all?
Mr. Payne: What’s that?
Dan: Do you belong to any clubs there at all?
Mr. Payne: Clubs, no I never joined anything else because I’ve always been very active in my Church work. For 15 years I was Chairman of the ah ah church Board. I ah put the church and an apartment next to it in the ah church’s ah lap without investing a cent. Free and clear–I had to use my head a little. Ah the ah State took over the parsonage for forty ah ah they only offered $450.00 for it.
Dan: Is that right?
Mr. Payne: Thats when they started clearing out for the playgrounds on ah Sherman Place.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: So, being very active in church work, they ah the ah church association here ah heard that I was looking for a parsonage–so the Chairman of the Church Board here called me up said, "Mr. Payne, I hear you're looking for a parsonage.” I said, "Yes, but I can't get ahit [sic] for what the ah anything for what they want to allow me for ah my old parsonage because anything I looked at was from 10 to 12 thousand, 12 hundred dollars.” So I says, he says, "Well how would you like to buy a church and a parsonage?” I says, “I’ll tell you, Reverend, I haven’t got five cents to invest. We are $1100.00 in the hole.” He says, "Well, could you have a couple of your board members meet me at the church on the corner of Lydia & Oak at 2 o'clock?" Yes sir, so I got ‘em, cause I was very active then and ah I looked the place over and ah he said, "Now ah IBM ah not IBM, GAF wants to ah buy the corner and ah put ah ah watering place there and ah Kradjian wants it to tear down and put ah ah development there, he said, but we rather have it for a church–Now it'll have to go up for a bid–could you make me a bid?" I said, "Well listen Rev, the best I could do would he $20,000.00.” He says, "Well I’ll take your bid in–how could you pay for it?” I said, "Cash." He says "What? I thought you was broke.” I am so I says, "I'll take care of it. I'll get in touch with you just within the next couple days.” So I called my head Minister up and I told him I says "You go see the Priest at ah St. Mary’s on ah Hawley and Fayette Street and tell him ‘cause he had asked me once before for a price on my church which was in very bad shape and he offered me $10,000.00 for it." Well I said 10 then 4, all right. I called Mrs. Titchner up–she was the development ah Superintendent here at that time–and I says, “Mrs. Titchner, I've got a proposition–it’s only good for a week. I've got to have at least $8,000.00 for the parsonage." [She says,] “Oh, Mr. Payne, I could never get that much.” I said, "Well I'm going to tell you what I've got in mind. I said I have ah offered the Church to the ah St. Mary’s ah Catholic Church for $15,000.00. I've given them a week’s, ah, option, I said, otherwise I'm gonna rebuild it" and ah (Clock chimes) she said, "Well I'm going to tell you what I'll do, Mr. Payne. I, I, I appreciate what you're doing, I'll call the State and see what I can do for you. I'll tell them the situation.” About three days afterwards, she called back and said, "OK, you can have the $8,000.00"--so I got that $8,000.00. The, the Priest saw my Minister and told him he’d take it, so I got $15,000.00–so I got $23,000.00, see, without a dime invested no place and ah I don't know, it was transacted through ah the First City National Bank and I met there with them. Ah the President of the Bank at that time said, "I don't know I ah Mr. Payne, you' re marvelous, I ah wish we had a Chairman that could work it like you worked it." (Laughter) So I took the $20,000.00 ah ah to them to for the church, I mean to pay for it–I had $3000.00 left, I paid the $1100.00 off that ah we owed and ah cause the ceiling was falling down and ah I had that fixed and that’s what I owed and then I took a couple thousand dollars they ah they ah–the furnace was bad so I put a new furnace in or used one that was in very good shape I bought from Fred Kennedy–at that time he was in the ah ah used building ah business and ah used the rest of the money for decorating the inside and what we could on the outside painting he says and they didn't cost them a dime. (Laughter)
Dan: Ah, now what you said, you went to Central High School–did you graduate from ah Central High School?
Mr. Payne: I ah ah quit ah ah in the ah eleventh grade to go to ah cause my family was in a little bad shape to go to they had enough money to send me to Riley's Business College and so I, I didn't quite finish ah for that and went to Riley's Business College. Riley's son and I had been friends ever since we was small kids and ah he told me I've ah had enough education for what he can give me so I don't need no more and he'll see that I get a break cause there was a lot of prejudices you know at that time in Binghamton.
Dan: Lot of what, lot of what?
Mr. Payne: Prejudices.
Dan: Oh, prejudices.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, I can remember that ah Ralph Hackett was in charge of ah the ah G.F. Pavilion and ah he ah I don't know, I wanted to raise money for the Lodge, see if we could buy a place eventually, so I started ah ah giving some dances around and I went down to see Ralph cause we had been friends ah otherwise and ah I asked him if we could rent it. He says, "Oh, this is strictly ah ah company ah company place of amusement and it’s not for rent to anybody.” I says, “Well you tell ah George F. that I want it at least twice a year–once in the spring and once in the fall for a Masonic dance and I want to improve the colored people in Binghamton as much as possible," and ah so anyhow ah he said to tell Ralph to let me have it once or twice a year– once in the spring and once in the fall, so Ralph and I got to be quite friends. So they was ah bringing name bands here for their dances and ah so ah–oh, I'm trying to think of his name now, oh he was a good friend of mine. He just died. Oh colored ah band Leader–tops–what was his name? Oh dear, he was a composer as well as ah ah–
Dan: Wouldn’t be Garner there, would it?
Mr. Payne: What?
Dan: Would it be Garner, Garner?
Mr. Payne: No–Duke Ellington.
Dan: Duke Ellington.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, he came here. They wouldn't let him, they had 20 people. They wouldn't let his ah ah his group stay overnight in any hotel here.
Dan: What year was this?
Mr. Payne: Oh God, I don't quite remember the year, but anyhow, let’s see, Ralph called me up and wanted to know if I could find places for them to stay overnight among my friends because you know I you know because I was in top shape and had very good friends. I finally got 'em enough to room so I went back down–he come here on a bus with his band and ah I told him what I had done. He says, "Well listen, ah ah Mr. Payne, I'm I’m very thankful for what vou've done, but these white people in Binghamton do so and so, which I can't ever repeat.”
Dan: In other words, in other words, there was discrimination.
Mr. Payne: "From now on I'm going to play this engagement and I'm leaving afterwards and they'll get on their knees to get me back here again and they'll do it too.” And they really did and finally ah after many years they got him to come back.
Dan: You know the Ku Klux Klan was very active at one time here in this city, wasn't it?
Mr. Payne: All right - I had that, at that time when the Ku Klux Klan was active here in Binghamton, had a Convention here, I can't remember the date. It was in the 20s. Ah I was, ah, backed on Centenary Street with my truck, loading some furniture, and it blocked off the street and ah a guy come by with a pickup truck and wanted me to move my truck out of the street londside. Well I told him I couldn't do it because we was getting ready to put a piano in and ah he'd have to wait. Well I ain't waiting but he did ah went up on the sidewalk on the other side and he clipped the front of ah my truck. So I jumped out there boy and I let him have one. So he says, "We got an organization going to take care of you." I says, “Oh you have, well I've got an organization that says you can’t." I was very proud of proud to belong–I didn't belong of of to be a friend of the Mafia, that was here. That was ah at that time I had ah a associate business of welding on Collier Street, which was known at that time as Automobile Row and ah this one particular friend there was a liquor ah ah ah bar room on each side of where I was ah ah I had my welding shop and ah I this is where I met this one of the heads of the Mafia, who became a very good friend of mine. I told him about what this guy said ‘cause I know they was quite strong from talking with them before because there was a lot of Italian people down around that way, see. He says, ''All right, they're having ah ah big time here next year, Ku Klux Klan, I'm going with you and we're going up and see that parade and I want to tell them something anyhow." So we went up and stood on the corner of Chenango and Henry. All right, this ah parade come down and this big shot stopped right in front of us–so right away quick my pal says, "Listen you so and so, this is my pal Leo Payne, I heard that you was ah looking for him and here he is. If you touch one hair of his head, I blow your head off." And then he told me if I, I wanted him at that time, anybody put out of the way, for $125 .00 I could have it done and nobody would be the wiser who done it.
Dan: Now you ah did you encounter any other prejudices as far as the white people in the community?
Mr. Payne: Never had any trouble at all.
Dan: No, no trouble at all. You're an old established family here, Mr. Payne.
Mr. Payne: What?
Dan: You’re an old established family here–respected family..
Mr. Payne: Yes.
Dan: You are. Now you said your dad was in business in the piano moving business before you?
Mr. Payne: He was in the moving business.
Dan: Moving business.
Mr. Payne: Moved anything, cleaning out cellars and moving.
Dan: How long was he in business?
Mr. Payne: Oh dear, uh uh until he died.
Dan: Until he died–what year would that be approximately?
Mr. Payne: I think, let’s see, he's been dead about 16 years.
Dan: lb years.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, and my mother died right afterwards–the next year.
Dan: About 1961 then, huh?
Mr. Payne: Yes.
Dan: Uh huh, 62.
Mr. Payne: They're buried in ah Chenango Valley Cemetery. So when my wife
died, I bought five lots up there for my immediate family which I still own. Put a stone up there for both my wife and myself.
Dan: Now you worked from 1917, when you started in business, right up until 67–did you say 1967 - 68?
Mr. Payne: I quit work ah about ah oh about 4 years ago, myself that is, doing any labor.
Dan: Oh you did. Did you that soon, huh? Just 4 years ago.
Mr. Payne: Yes that’s all.
Dan: Oh.
Mr. Payne: I was good right up ‘til then.
Dan: Who's carrying on your business now, Mr. Payne?
Mr. Payne: Well I am.
Dan: Oh, are you?
Mr. Payne: Sure, I just answer the phone or have my daughter, if I can't hear–she answers for me.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: And I have a couple friends of mine that worked with me when I was ah ah driving myself years and years ago.
Dan: Now what was the pay scale when you started out down in back in 1917. How much were you making - how much were you making yourself back in 1917?
Mr. Payne: Ah, I was getting top pay $20.00.
nan: $20.00 a week?
Mr. Payne: Yeah.
Dan: That’s out of your business?
Mr. Payne: No, I ah ah that’s what I got up in Sidney.
Dan : Oh, in Sidney.
Mr. Payne: At the end.
Dan: I see, but when you got in business for yourself?
Mr. Payne: I just, whatever I made, I made and that’s it.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: And I improved my business as much as I could until finally I got tired and figured that I had enough. (Clock Chimes). I had a home up on South Washington Street which–when I, I got the first ah heart attack–everything was turned over to my daughter who has taken over since then.
Dan: Yeah, how long have you lived here, sir?
Mr. Payne: 4 years.
Dan: 4 years
Mr. Payne: About 4 years, maybe 5.
Dan : Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: It’s all paid for.
Dan: Now ah this Henry Doherty that you spoke of–how do you spell his last name?
Mr. Payne: D-O-H-E-R-T-Y..
Dan: Now you remember the Courthouse when it burned down?
Mr. Payne: Yes.
Dan: That was quite a few years ago, because that’s rebuilt.
Mr. Payne: I think around, ah, I was about 5 years old. 1904, I think.
Dan: 1904 is when it was built, I think, wasn't it or was it?
Mr. Payne: Well it was just ahead. I was only just around about 4 or 5 years old.
Dan: 4 or 5 years old.
Mr. Payne: Yeah, because I know my Father, ah, we were living on Sherman Place only just below there a little ways. I seen so many changes.
Dan: And you say you started out in the Cyrus Clapp–
Mr. Payne: Yes, working for Cyrus Clapp.
Dan: Did this, was the–you worked for Cyrus Clapp?
Mr. Payne: That’s right–he sold out where the Press Building is.
Dan: I see.
Mr. Payne: And that’s where I lived in right behind there in the carriage house when we first moved here.
Dan: Is that right?
Mr. Payne: Yes, upstairs over the carriage.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: Where they kept the horses.
Dan: You're 89 years old now, so it'd be 87 years ago that you lived in back.
Mr. Payne: That’s right.
Dan: Before the Press Building was built.
Mr. Payne: Oh yes, yeah, there was quite a knoll there, yes.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: Which has all been distributed, I mean taken away, you know. Tommy, I think it was Tommy lived next door–he was rich too. I remember Conklin used to live on the corner of Exchange and Hawley Street and that was up on a hill where the YMCA is now and us kids used to ah get barrel staves and ah make skis (Laughter) and ride down there in the wintertime.
Dan: So you were down in Sherman Place, ah, was where your business started or where you moved to–Sherman Place at one time.
Mr. Payne: When I come?
Dan: Yeah.
Mr. Payne: My father was living on Exchange Street at the time.
Dan: Yeah
Mr. Payne: And I come down and, ah, lived with him for a few months when I moved over on ah ah 35 DeRussey Street.
Dan: Is that where you started in business on DeRussey Street?
Mr. Payne: That’s right.
Dan: Uh huh.
Mr. Payne: 35–I lived upstairs over Sam Katz.
Dan: Uh huh, yeah, South Washington Street (to daughter) right right–I can remember when the DeRussey Street bridge went out.
Mr. Payne: Oh dear.
Dan: Uh huh. Well is there anything else you would like to add, Mr. Payne, before I–
Mr. Payne: Well truthfully I can't think of anything of importance.
Dan: You're a very successful business man. Very well respected in your community.
Mr. Payne: I have been until just the last couple of months.
Dan: Uh huh
Mr. Payne: I had very bad luck from vandals–poured some water in the crankcase of my truck and it swelted such, the motor, and I had to have a new one put in and ah it cost me $1635.00 to get another motor put in.
Dan: Gee.
Mr. Payne: And then I burned up my Cadillac.
Dan: Gee, everything comes at once.
Mr. Payne: Right out here in the yard.
Dan: Now when you first started your business, you got a loan from the Bank in Sidney–is that right?
Mr. Payne: That’s right.
Dan: And then you–how many trucks do you own now?
Mr. Payne: l've only got ah the one I'm keeping now–I'm using.
Dan: OK well, I certainly thank you very much, Mr. Payne–I'll play this back for you so you can hear how your own voice sounds.
Date of Interview
1978-02-10
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Dan O'Neil
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leo J. Payne
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Title
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Interview with Leo J. Payne
Description
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Leo Payne speaks of his early childhood growing up in Binghamton and later working as a bookkeeper and stenographer. He owned his own trucking company in Binghamton in the early twentieth century. He discusses his inter-racial marriage and the death of his first wife in childbirth because there were no hospitals in Sidney, N.Y. where his wife had gone into labor. He was active in a Masonic Lodge and in his church, Trinity M.F. Zion, the latter for which he assisted in securing a new church building. He also discusses discrimination and discriminatory business practices in the area at the time, including an anecdote about Duke Ellington being refused a place to stay when he came to Binghamton to perform. He speaks about his experiences with the Ku Klux Klan and the Mafia in Binghamton. At the time of the interview, Payne was 89 years old and still running his trucking business.
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Payne, Leo J. ; O'Neil, Dan
Date
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1978-02-10
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Recording 76A ; Recording 76B
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
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2017-03-27
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Broome County Oral History Project
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33:47 minutes; 7:19 minutes
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67ca71aa8b26b00f1ba56884bd6a019f.mp3
ad65ce184da3527f399520bbd2b14711
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Broome County Oral History Project
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Broome County -- History
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Binghamton University Libraries
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The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
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2
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In copyright
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
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1977-1978
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56945">Interview with Gladys Gitchell</a>
Interviewer
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Dobandi, Susan
Duration
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17:09 minutes
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp3
Date of Digitization
2017-03-27
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Sound
Subject LCSH
Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Mrs. Gladys Gitchell</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 13 January 1978</span></p>
<br /><br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Mrs. Gitchell, could you tell us something about your early beginnings—where you came from, what your parents did, and things like that?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: Well, I was born in Alpoint, South Dakota. My father's name was James Campbell, my mother’s name was Villie. I, ah—he ran, my father ran a department store in a little village and, ah, his—my brothers and sisters and I helped in the store. It was just a country department store. One side was a dry goods store, one side was a bakery, and one side was a grocery store. From there we worked and went to school, which only took us through the seventh grade as we had to be sent to the city to go to high school.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At that time I met my husband, Arthur Gitchell, and we were married when I was nineteen. We moved to a ranch outside of Reah Heights, which was a small town, and we raised cattle, horses, hogs and sheep and chickens. We separated the milk and sold the cream and fed the skimmed milk to the calves and pigs. He milked twenty-seven cows.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">When in 1921, we decided to come east to New York State to visit my husband’s people that lived on a farm in Apalachin. While we were there we visited his uncle in Binghamton, who was Hollis M. Gitchell, Water Superintendent. He talked my husband into taking a job with the city and staying in Binghamton as not only as having a better job, but also having better schooling for our children. So, we sent word back to South Dakota and had our properties disposed of and stayed on.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At that time my husband worked in the Water Department and did an east side route for the city water by carrying sand and salt and a shovel and walking the route and digging out the fire hydrants and, whenever finding a frozen one, fill it with salt and making them safe for the fireman. At that time he was making $4.35 a day. Which—we lived on Washington Street at that time, we lived on Washington Street in City property between Hawley and Stuart, and I kept roomers, and in 1927 we decided to buy us a home, which we did, at 43 Andrews Ave.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I became interested in the school—parent-teacher work, and did what I could with the other ladies to get new schools and improve our school system on the east side. In ‘21 when—was when the new East Jr. was built—no, that’s wrong, ’27, the new East Jr. was built, and in 1938 the new North High School was built. We called it the North High school because it was the north—the people on the northside wanted the school built in their district. So, we built it and called it North High, which starts the north side of E. Fredricks Street. It was a big piece of swampland and made a—by filling it all in, it made a—a nice football field and recreation field for both of the Central High School and the north side. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At that time I worked, clerked in the different stores in Binghamton. I started in at Fowler’s in the late forties. As the condition of the bus system changed, I found it more convenient to leave Fowler’s and come to the east side and work in a 10¢ store. It was on the corner of Robinson and Moeller Street, where I worked for thirteen years. I try now to keep very active in the senior citizen work, where I volunteer my time—the Greenman Center, where—which is located where the Pine Street school was torn down.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Tell us how many children you had.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: I had eight children—four boys and four girls. They all became active in some business. My daughter has worked—my oldest daughter has worked for the Universal Instrument, which has business in a great many different places—Chicago, Canada, and different—and she has worked for thirty-five years as a cost accountant. One boy works for the Board of Education, one boy works for TV, colored TV repair, and my son James, who lives in Maryland, works for the Metro—Metro 77, which he has worked for them for the past year.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: You want to bring out that it's a new concept in transportation.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: —which is a new concept in transportation. It expands—the Metro system will carry millions of riders to offices, schools, stores and recreation centers on both sides of the Potomac River. The automatic fare collection begins with the open of—the Blue Line, with the Blue Line you won't have to carry any extra change. All you need to do—need to do is insert a coin in a fare box—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: —fare box—</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: —a vending machine in the station itself, and into—you insert it into the slot and it pops right back at you in a half a second, and on you walk onto the Metro train.</span></p>
Date of Interview
1978-01-13
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Gitchell, Gladys
Dublin Core
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Coverage
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Gladys Gitchell speaks of growing up in South Dakota before marrying her husband and moving, with him, to New York. She discusses her husband's job caring for the fire hydrants in the city of Binghamton and her work improving the schools on the east side of the city. She worked as a clerk at several stores in Binghamton and is now active in her senior citizen organization. She also discusses her children and their current occupations.
Title
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Interview with Gladys Gitchell
Date
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1978-01-13
Identifier
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Recording 75
Contributor
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Gitchell, Gladys ; Dobandi, Susan
Rights
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
Date Modified
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2017-03-27
Is Part Of
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Broome County Oral History Project
Extent
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17:09 minutes
Subject
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Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f4d3c26a75d5d6b7911195034803c16.mp3
5fb0d0acb87fcf5b55069604eaf4d676
Dublin Core
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Title
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Broome County Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Broome County -- History
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.
Identifier
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2
Rights
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In copyright
Contributor
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Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer
Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist
Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee
Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian
Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant
Jamey McDermott, Student Employee
Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives
David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1977-1978
Relation
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<a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a>
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<a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56948">Interview with Eunice L. Davidson</a>
Interviewer
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Dobandi, Susan
Duration
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24:58 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Subject LCSH
Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
Date of Digitization
2017-03-27
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<p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Eunice L. Davidson</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 11 October 1978</span></p>
<br />
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Miss Davidson, could we start this interview by having you tell us something about where you were born and, ah, anything that you'd care to tell us about your parents?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, I was born up in Chenango County, in Tyner, NY. My father had come from—his folks had come, rather, from Saratoga and lived up there, and he owned a cheese factory there. My mother had come from down in Pennsylvania, and they married and then, ah—this cheese factory he had bought really was one of the very first, ah, cheese factories in this side of, ah, the—ah, the ah, Hudson River, and it really was historic. And it was called the Deer Spring Factory because there was a very cold spring there that, ah—and it was deep and they kept it—at that time they kept their milk down in cans, and the cheese in the spring, which they didn't have the modern equipment, but it was the way they kept it in those days to keep it from souring and to keep it just right. Then, ah, when I was four years old my mother died and we—my brother and my sister and I were left with my father. My brother stayed with my father while my sister went with another aunt over at, in—in the town of Smithville, and I was adopted by a man in Greene, NY. We lived in Greene. I start—my sister came down and lived with us, and we lived there and started in school. When I was in the eighth grade we moved to Binghamton and, ah, at about six months after we moved to Binghamton, we moved down here on Tremont Ave. and my mother and my sister or I—I have lived here ever since. Now, I didn't always live here, because I've been away to school and work. When we moved here, there was, this part of the city was, well, it had been farmland, and the barns from the farms were still here. There were one over here next door to us and there was one across the street, and the one that had the barn over there across the street had horses, and I can remember his bringing—if we wanted anything brought, we didn't have taxis, but he would bring it to us with that horse and carriage or horse and wagon, and of course there weren't so many buildings.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I can remember when they tore the old barn down and then built up around here. They built the apartment houses over at #1 Tremont and, ah, then, ah, next door they tore the barn down, but they didn't rebuild in there but there was quite a little land with that building, a little farmhouse, and they had divided it up, built an apartment house at #7, and they built another house above that and, ah, we of course went to school here, it was, of course our schools were different than they are today. We didn’t have to have flat (one story) without walking upstairs. When I first came here, I went over on Washington Street to the eighth grade. I was in the eighth grade when I came down here and, ah, had classes over there. Then the next year, when I finished the eighth grade, they were starting to build the new high school—the Binghamton Central High, which is there now, and then of course we went to school over here at, ah, it's where the Abraham Lincoln School is. It was the old New Street School, and we had our classes half a day. The New Street School children came half a day and, ah, we went there two years in that school before the high school was rebuilt.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: When you went away to school, Miss Davidson, where did you go?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: I went to Syracuse University and put in four years there. A little incident that tells of how the times have changed, maybe, is, once—I was, of course we traveled back and forth on the train, and not by bus or cars as they do now, and we were stuck in the snow one day when I was coming down, up at, ah, just a little above Cortland, and there was a snow belt through there, and the train was stopped and we were there hours before we came through.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: What did you study in Syracuse?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, I studied Liberal Arts—I studied, Mathematics was my major and Latin was my minor. Then, ah, after that, of course, I taught for a while.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Which schools did you teach in?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, I taught up at, ah, Crown Point, NY, and I don't want to go into all—and over here, a year in Central High.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Oh, at Central.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: I decided then to get out of teaching and do something else, so finally after several years in which I did different things, I went to Washington, D.C. to work for the government. I worked in the Army Finance and we—which was very interesting, interesting in Washington, but of course we, ah, didn't—it wasn't the same Washington that it is today, but let me go back in when—I was in school, our education, I think we had a wonderful education, because they taught us </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">how</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to find things, how to </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">change</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. We weren't taught just one thing, how to do it. We were taught that learning was living, and we should really find out and think how to change, and of course mathematics is great for that because you can't solve your problems unless you think of all the angles, and that helps you in living today.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Miss Davidson, would you like to go back and tell us what life was like, ah, when you were living out in the country?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, when we were in Greene we had some wonderful neighbors. They did things for us. I remember in, ah, my first Christmas tree—one of the neighbors brought it and left it at our back door, and Mother, that was my adopted mother, was left alone. She had my sister and I there and she was trying to bring us up, and the neighbors really helped to do it, and when there was snow the boy over in the, ah—neighbor—one of the neighbors’ boys came over and shoveled out, I can remember shoveling out all around the house one day because he didn't know which door we wanted to go into when we came home, and another thing that was different in those days, I think the whole town knew who people were. They respected them and they helped one another. The churches worked harder. They were interested in the people and we had, ah, parties. I can remember a sleigh ride, going from Greene down to Chenango Forks for a sleigh ride. It was three sleighs, of course they were small churches. Once we went to another church and had a party down there and then came back, and it was things like that—that made life really interesting. One day we took some popcorn, went over to a neighbor’s and we had popcorn—ate it, and I think neighbors helping one another really helps. It makes life so much different than it is of today. Now we don't know our neighbors, they come and go, especially in the apartment houses around here, they change so often that we don't know them, and we have had some trouble with children. Well, one day we had a—they would pull up the—our posts that we have to help us come up the railings out there, and they keep pulling them up ’til one of the neighbors said, "Well, we needed that to come in.” And the children left it alone. I think that they don't realize what they're doing. It is the neighbors and knowing people, and then too, we didn't have to be educated to one thing.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I think it all helped in growing up and well—then, of course, things were different, we—we had to do more things for ourselves. We didn't use taxis. I can't remember when we first, ah, used the taxi, of course when we came to Binghamton there was a trolley car that went. I can remember its going up to Ross Park, and we used to ride up there, although as a child I think we walked up there and we took hikes and beyond. We enjoyed that. The neighbors, not—there was a neighbor girl in school with me right next door, and we would, really enjoyed life in those days. Is that what you want to know?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Well, that's fine. Are you sure there isn't anything more that you'd care to add?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, probably there is a lot of things. There were so many things that happened that were interesting, but of course it came out in the Sunday paper about—that about the fires over town that weekend, remember those fires?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Yes, the Overall Factory.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Yes, yes, we remember that when it happened.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Were you there?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: We were overtown, Mother and I—were overtown, but ah, we didn't go to it or anything. We could just see the smoke and all from that.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Thank you very much, Miss Davidson.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: You’re welcome.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: It's been nice talking with you.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: I hope it helps. There's so much that could probably have been said, but I just cannot think of it today.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Well, thanks again.</span></p>
Date of Interview
1978-10-11
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Davidson, Eunice L.
Dublin Core
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audio/mp3
Title
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Interview with Eunice L. Davidson
Description
An account of the resource
Eunice Davidson speaks of her father's cheese factory, the first one west of the Hudson, called the Deer Spring Factory. She discusses her experience growing up on Tremont Avenue in the city of Binghamton, watching it grow from farmland into an urban community. She studied math and Latin at Syracuse University and became a teacher, before moving to Washington, D.C. to work for the Department of Finance for the Army. She shares her experience watching farmlands change into more urban areas where she lived.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1978-10-11
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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Recording 74
Contributor
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Davidson, Eunice L. ; Dobandi, Susan
Subject
The topic of the resource
Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army
Rights
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information.
Date Modified
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2017-03-27
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Broome County Oral History
Extent
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24:58 minutes
-
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arthur W. Chickering, 1927-
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Arthur W. Chickering is an author, scholar, and researcher. His research is in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. \n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":8403713,"3":[null,0],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,4995385],"15":"Arial","16":11,"26":400}">Dr. Arthur W. Chickering (1927-2020) was an author, scholar, and researcher. His research was in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Harvard University; Students; Black Panthers; Higher education; Existentialism; Racism; Baby boom generation; David Horowitz; Assassination of John F. Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy; George McGovern"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059},"12":0}">Harvard University; Students; Black Panthers; Higher education; Existentialism; Racism; Baby boom generation; David Horowitz; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; George McGovern</span>
Date of Interview
2010-03-09
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
91:09
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Subject LCSH
Authors; Scholars; Chickering, Arthur W., 1927--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Arthur Chickering
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 9 March 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Arthur Chickering, March 9th, 2010. Phone interview for the book on Boomers. In looking at your biography, I kind of broke it down into three parts at the very beginning. You started your college career at Goddard College as a psychology teacher from 1959 to 1965. Could you describe the students of that era? As the (19)50s came to an end, JFK became president, then of course he was assassinated, and LBJ expanded the war in Vietnam, what were the college students like from (19)59 to (19)65?
AC (00:00:50):
Well, I cannot really describe college students in general, you have to go to other people or other literature for that. Goddard was very small, when I went there in (19)59, there were 180 students.
SM (00:01:07):
Okay.
AC (00:01:08):
And it was a very unique institution based on progressive education principals, on Dewey and Kilpatrick, with whom then President Tim Piston had studied. And it had a work program, during January and February, students went away for a work term. They pursued independent studies. They had to apply for admission to the senior division after their first two years. There was a strong emphasis on independent studies. And so, my basic point is that because of its unique characteristics and because of its small size, it did grow over the years to about 1,000 students, but it attracted a very special kind of student, mainly from the Boston, Washington, DC corridor, the Northeast. So those two, and if you look at the way Goddard is described in education identity or in other of my publication, you will see that students are at the extreme left end, if you will, of the sort of political attitudinal continuum. And those were the students I knew best. When I did that project on student development in small colleges, which involved thirteen small colleges across the country from (19)65 to (19)69, then I encountered a wider range of students. But again, all those colleges had enrollment of fewer than 1,000 students, and they themselves were self-selected. We had evangelical and conservative protestant institution like Bryant College and Messiah College and Westmont College at that end of the continuum. And then there was Goddard and Shimer at the other end of that long continuum. And in the middle, there were the Western New England College, Oberlin, which is Quaker based, that is putting it moderate. So those are the students I grew up with if you will.
SM (00:04:07):
When you worked with that small number of students from (19)59 to (19)65, and then from (19)65 to (19)69 you worked around development in small colleges, and then you were also a visiting scholar at the American Council on Education, (19)65 to (19)70, did you notice any changes in those students in terms of their political attitudes, from (19)59 to (19)70, because of all the things that were happening in the world?
AC (00:04:44):
Well, again, I do not think I could make any generalizations. The impact on students of those diverse colleges was fairly substantial, and that is what education identity is anchored in. But that population of institutions certainly was not representative of the bulk of students in state colleges and universities across the country, which then were practically free. And of course, the community college movement hit the streets during the (19)60s, and that brought a whole new sector into higher education. And those students did not really bear any resemblance really to the undergraduates I was studying in these very small residential, highly self-selected. I mean they were not selective in the sense that they were meritocratic, but they were sharply defined image self-selectivity operated in a very powerful way. But again, the little colleges had a major impact on students. And I wrote about that. But in terms of knowing about the kinds of general changes that they are asked about across large research universities or publicly support institutions.
SM (00:06:46):
Well, the last question in this area is those other timeframes from (19)70 to (19)77 when you were the founding Vice President for Academic Affairs, and you were very poor in the founding of Empire College from that, in that period from (19)70 to (19)77, and then you were a distinguished professor at Memphis State University from (19)77 to (19)86. So, you saw not only students who were boomers, but you saw the beginning of the generation Xers coming in there at that time too. Is there anything you saw within the students during that timeframe that was different from the earlier timeframe?
AC (00:07:30):
Well, of course, during those years, I was heavily involved with adult learning. Two major things happened from (19)70 to (19)87. One of the most important, of course, was the [inaudible] of higher education with the Pell Grant and student loans and open admission. And so, the diversity among students, traditional college age students increased dramatically. And also, of course, there were sharp increases in the numbers of adult learners. And that is what led to the creation of the Council for Adults and Experiential Learning. The Empire State was created to respond to those adult learners. When I was at Memphis State running the Center for Higher Education, I had to see federally funded grants to help institute [inaudible] of institution respond to the educational needs of adult learners. So, during that time period, I was heavily involved with that particular sub sector, if you will, or subpopulation of college and university students, and not with traditional college age undergraduate. I went to George Mason in my role there as university professor. There I was much more directly involved with traditional college age graduates. But in those particular intervening years from (19)70 or (19)71 to (19)87, (19)88, I was heavily involved with adult learning.
SM (00:09:44):
Wow. What is interesting is when I look at some of these people like you and the other great student development theorists, how did you become who you are? What led you into higher education? I know you went on and got a psychology degree, but your background, who were your role models and your mentors? Who were the people that inspired you when you were young to go the direction that you went?
AC (00:10:14):
I have just finished an essay called Learning [inaudible] twenty pages long, which details I kind of educational [inaudible], if you will. And I can email you a copy of that if you want.
SM (00:10:35):
Okay.
AC (00:10:37):
But the short answer is that I majored in modern comparative literature at Wesleyan University and graduated in 1950. And I was headed for a doctoral degree in comparative literature, but I had to earn a living, so I went to the Harvard Graduate School of Education for their Master of Art Teaching English program. When I was teaching high school students during teaching, I got interested in the way they were processing problems with peers and with authority and with their parents and so forth. As we discussed Mill on the Floss and Silas Marner, which were two novels that were part of the high school curriculum at the time. And that led me... I found I was more interested in working with a student around those issues than in literary criticism. So, I discovered that there was such a thing in school psychology. So, I went to Columbia and got a PhD degree in school psych, and I worked as a school psychologist for three years. And then I was recruited to create a new teacher education department at Monmouth College in Long Branch, New Jersey. I have had a pretty [inaudible] experience at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and I got fired for-for a variety of reasons, some of which are detailed in this essay that I can email you if you want. But that is what introduced me, that was my first year in higher education. And then I heard about this really interesting little college in Vermont Goddard College and my wife and I, and they had been living in the New York metropolitan area for 10 years or so. We had both grown up in Massachusetts, outside of Boston, and we loved skiing and hiking in Vermont. So, we moved to Goddard. At Goddard I really got introduced to the world of higher education. I was hired to work halftime as Gordon coordinator of evaluation of a fourth foundation supported six-year program in college curriculum organization. And so, I started gathering all that data, a lot of shared and education community. And that is how I migrated over into the world of higher education. Most of what I have built a career on in higher education I learned at Goddess from (19)59 to (19)65 and then with the project of student development in small colleges. The sort of educational principles in terms of learner, student centered learning and contract learning, independent studies, experiential learning, individualized education and the like were really all part of what Goddard was doing back in the early (19)60s when I was evaluating the program. So, I suppose my number one model and mentor was Tim Pitkin, then President of Godard College, but also Forests Davis is academic Vice President, George Becher, another senior faculty member. Those are the people... And I went there in (19)59, so I would have been 32 when I went there. So, I was just very young, naive, professional coming into the world of higher education and they had an enduring impact on my [inaudible] functioning.
SM (00:15:11):
Very good. How about your parents? How important were your parents when you first went off to college?
AC (00:15:20):
Well, my folks were divorced when I was nine. My mother was critical. She always wanted me to go to college. The expectation that I would go to college was built into my upbringing. Because I was getting into a lot of trouble in high school and she had to work during the depression and we were poor, she managed to get me a scholarship to Mount Hermann School in northern Massachusetts for my junior and senior year. And I was not a good student. I graduated 103rd in the class of 107. Nobody who knew me then, or none of my teachers certainly would have ever predicted that I would become a distinguished [inaudible] of all things. And when I graduated from Mount Hermann in 44, I was going to be drafted, and instead I enrolled it in Army Specialized Training Reserve program and was sent with 30 other kids from the University of New Hampshire. And I got kicked out of the University of New Hampshire that fall. Went back to live on to my mother, who was then working in Connecticut and went over to Wesleyan University and met with the admissions officer because I knew I would turn 18 in April, that April, after which I knew I would be drafted. So, I managed to... Well, when I met with him, I said, "Here's my situation." I did not tell him I had been kicked out of the University of New Hampshire, but I told him that I wanted to go to college for a semester before I went in the Army. And he said, "Well, send me your transcript and your test scores from Mount Herman and we will see." And at that time, of course, all the eligible men were in the army. But I said, "Well, you do not want to see that Mr. [inaudible]. If you see that you will never let me in here." And he said, "Well, we never let anybody in here without paying that information." I said, "Okay." So, I had it sent to him, he called me up at about 10 days and asked me to come in. And he said, "You're right. We have never let anyone into Wesleyan University with a record like yours." But he said, "I noticed your aptitude scores are very high, even though your grades are terrible, and your achievement test scores are lousy. How do you explain that?" And I said, "Well, I have never studied, I have never been interested in academic stuff. I like sports and parties and cards and so on." And I said, "I am ready to study. I know I need to establish a record before I go in the Army." I said, "I am going to be a commuting student and pay my full semester's tuition upfront. You set any grade point average you want me to meet, according to whatever test schedules you want, and if I do not meet it, you can keep my money and alcohol." So, he said, "Well, let me think about that." So, I left, and in four or five days, he called me up and asked me to come in and he said, "Okay, you got a deal. You give us your tuition; you need to have a B average on your midterm exam or you're out of here." And I said, "Okay." So, I went back and studied and ended up with a B plus average and finished this semester. Went off and spent a couple years in the Army. And of course, while I got back there was highly select institution there. They're only admitting valedictorians and [inaudible], but I went back and got into Wesleyan. And one of the critical things that happened when I went back into Wesleyan, I was back into playing cards and partying and into athletics when I was on probation the first two semesters. And then it came time to decide on a major. And I had enjoyed reading literature, particularly contemporary literature, but at that time, at Wesleyan, you can major in English or Spanish or French, but they all had this historical trajectory starting at the beginning and working their way up. So, I went in and talked with the dean and said, "Isn't there any way I can slice this stuff horizontally? I really enjoy reading contemporary literature and thinking about the relationship between the social context so forth and the literature." And he said, "Well, there is such a thing as comparative literature. We do not have that major here. But if you go talk with Brent Mann was head of French department and Juan Rural who head of Spanish, and Navi Brown, Norman O'Brien, who then was head of the classics department and Fred Miller, head of humanities, and if they all put together a series of courses and if they will write an evaluation for your comprehensive exam," which they did not have then, "You can have that kind of major." So, I walked out of his office at 10:30 and by five o'clock I had talked with all four of those people. And they were very enthusiastic really about doing that. Wesleyan was small. It only had 750 people and because of my gambling and so forth, I was fairly well known on campus. And this is the first sign of any intellectual interest they have seen out of me.
SM (00:22:44):
What were the students like that you were going to college within the late forties and fifties? What were they like?
AC (00:22:51):
Well, they were mainly, of course, it was a whole influx of veterans from (19)45, (19)46, (19)47. And so-
AC (00:23:03):
... (19)46, (19)47, and so at Wesleyan at that time, it probably was about 50 percent veterans and 50 percent typical graduate from high school. So, the veterans really had a significant influence on the college environment and college cultures during those... In fact, I joined Sigma Nu fraternity, which was started in the South and did not admit Black students. One of the things we did after we tried to change that policy with the national and they would not change. And so, we took Sigma Nu out, we got a loan from the local bank and borrowed enough money to buy the fraternity house and took Sigma Nu out of the national organization, so we were able to admit Black students.
SM (00:24:05):
Wow.
AC (00:24:07):
But the influx of veterans during those years, I mean, that was just a bubble. After the war got over and after all of us guys on the GI Bill and so forth went through the system, and everything tried to reverse its fist.
SM (00:24:25):
Were there many students of color on the campus at that time?
AC (00:24:29):
Not a lot. There were some and they were terrific.
SM (00:24:33):
You wrote The Education Identity, which is a classic book on student development of theory, and it's been a major guide for college administrators working with students for a long time. And particularly this came about at the time, in (19)69, when Boomers were in their heyday, because Boomers really started going to college in (19)64, (19)65. So, we are talking about that, particularly the early Boomers, which were the most activist and most involved. Were from (19)64 to about (19)74. How did you come up with the idea, and what was the inspiration to write this great book?
AC (00:25:18):
Well, I have read everything that was written really about, partly because of my background in school psychology. I read a lot of stuff about adolescent development, and there was not much literature about young adult development. There was not much literature on college’s impact on student learning and development. But I had a file of data from Goddard and from the project, and I had read, as I say, about everything that was to read. My main concern was to have an impact on the quality of undergraduate education. I was not really interested in complex theory development, so I wanted to write something that would be useful, and it would have an impact on practice. I knew from my psychological background that about the largest number of items anybody can remember and work with is five or six or seven. I was determined to try to organize my findings and my orientation toward student development and student learning in a parsimonious way that would fit into that number. As I looked at the literature and so forth, seven vectors as I called them, grew out of that combination of looking at the changes that occurred as the function of the data and the major conceptual framework that [inaudible] and Ted Newcomb and other leaders in that whole arena, for articulate. I was just lucky I happened to right at a level of abstraction that made those ideas pretty broadly accessible and applicable. But I worked hard to try to do that. And underneath each of those seven dimensions, seven vectors, there was possible to create three or four major subheadings and so forth, the kind of Christmas tree on which you could hang a variety of key ornaments.
SM (00:28:24):
Did you expect it to have the impact that it had, particularly on graduate school education, and why has it been able to withstand the test of time, not only for the Boomer generation, but for Generation X that followed, the Millennials that are in college now, and obviously for Generation Y, which are the really youngsters that will be coming up in 15 years. Your book is now going to be heading toward its fourth generation.
AC (00:28:54):
It is surprising. Well, I did not expect, in fact, I was very surprised when I got that American Council on Education book award that came out of the blue, because I thought that I was off the scale or off the street in terms of where a higher education was, A, and B, I had no idea that there was such a thing as a student personnel services profession or that there were graduate programs for students. I have been in these little, small colleges. I had never been in any institution that had the kind of array of student services and professionals that larger colleges and universities had. So, when they got picked up by those professionals, I was very surprised. I was frequently embarrassed when folks in Indiana or Michigan or Ohio or other graduate programs could come out and ask me to speak about the implications of my work for their graduate programs, because I did not know anything about those graduate programs.
SM (00:30:16):
You were big at Ohio State and I know that, did Phil Tripp?
AC (00:30:22):
No.
SM (00:30:23):
Yeah, he was Dr. Phil Tripp. He was the head of the program at Ohio State when I was there, along with my advisor, Dr. Roosevelt Johnson. They were unbelievable educators. One of the things that is interesting at that-
AC (00:30:38):
I am a little surprised.
SM (00:30:39):
Pardon?
AC (00:30:40):
I say all of that was a total surprise. And I think when Linda Reisser and I did the (19)95 or (19)96 revision, we were amazed at how all those basic conceptual frameworks still stood up when you looked at research on college impact on student learning and development that had occurred from the mid (19)60s to the early (19)90s that had been preferred that elaborated those. Of course, the gender differences and differences, the function of race and so forth, had emerged dramatically since the (19)60s.
SM (00:31:38):
I know on our master's exams at Ohio State in the summer of (19)72, the ones we prepared, we had to read 60 books in preparation along with never missing a class. Oh my goodness, you never knew where the questions were coming from, but one of them was on your book. And I remember writing a long essay, in that four-hour exam, writing at least one hour on your book. So it was a very important part of our education. Another thing that was happening during this time in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s was encounter, you probably heard about that. It was-
AC (00:32:15):
Oh yes.
SM (00:32:16):
What were your thoughts on encounter? Because I was in encounter classes at Ohio State and a lot of the purpose of encounter was we looked at the seven vectors and the ultimate being integrity at the very end and there was supporting each other. So, there was a combining of the encounter book and then combining of education identity. What was your thought about the whole concept of encounter during that time with college students?
AC (00:32:46):
Well, I think the whole encounter group movement with the National Training Lab, I have to go get another phone, so I am switching phones here because the battery is running down. Bear with me a sec. Can you hear me?
SM (00:33:01):
Yes, I can.
AC (00:33:01):
Still?
SM (00:33:01):
Yep, I can still hear you.
AC (00:33:08):
I thought that whole encounter group movement with National Training Lab was extremely helpful. It had a lot of extremists associated with it, but it did call attention to the internal life of people and led people to think about themselves in serious ways. Both my wife and I went to encounter group weekends, and I read a lot of that literature. And by and large, it seemed to me to be a very positive thing.
SM (00:33:58):
As a graduate student, it was intimidating at time. It was tough to be called, "You sound like a racist," in an encounter class because we had many African American students in our program. And so, it was a great learning experience in the end, but at times it was tough and you needed support. So, a lot of the things you were talking about, about development and theory and everything, a lot of the stuff in the encounter, it was what you were trying to say in your book.
AC (00:34:26):
Well, it raises that whole movement, raised all those existential issues. I mean, I think another way to think about your earlier question as to why those seven vectors seem to have stood up across generations is that they are really the basic existential areas for human development purposes. I mean, when now we have Goldman's work on emotional intelligence, all the issues of autonomy and interdependence, we have huge literature now on purpose and meaning. Integrity has been an issue in relationships. I mean, those issues do not go away just because there are sort of larger cultural forces that tend to have an impact on particular generation. I think the collision between all the new communication information, social interaction technology and these different vectors is going to be fascinating to observe.
SM (00:35:55):
I know what-
AC (00:35:58):
... and I am not close enough to it or young enough to really get involved with it in detail, but I have grandkids in their 20s and late teens, and they are in professional communication with each other and their high school friends. I went to South Africa with one of my grandsons, to Cape Town, and while we were there every night around 10 o'clock, he would get on, he was a computer guru, had his laptop with him. He would get on his laptop and be interacting with his girlfriend and with his high school friends back here in Vermont. At first, I was put off by that and I thought, well, why cannot you let go of that for a little while? But then as I started about eavesdropping on what he was doing, I realized that he was processing our experiences in the township and with the young people he was meeting with all the race and social and economic dynamics there in Cape Town in South Africa we were encountering. But anyway, the whole interaction and the ways in which current young people and future young people are going to work through those basic human development issues in the context of these new technology and media, I think, are going to be fascinating to try to understand.
SM (00:37:54):
That is excellent. One of the most important qualities that we try to instill in students is by the time they graduate, that all students have a sense of self-esteem, of comfortableness with who they are as human beings, and obviously, that is one of the goals of integrity in your seventh vector. I will never forget at Ohio State, I really felt comfortable after my years there because I really got what the seventh vector was all about. It is almost like a person standing up in front of an audience, and I said this to students, through my 30 years in higher ed, that these people who come and speak about certain issues really have integrity, whether you like their views or not, because they stand for something, they are willing to be in front of people, to give a... So thus, they have integrity because they are willing to be confronted as well. But the critics of the (19)60s generation, the Boomers, oftentimes attack the Boomers as being one, oh, this self-esteem business is a bunch of baloney. Why do we have to constantly build these people up? It is a criticism that is often been leveled that the era that they do not like, because many critics, political critics in particular, had looked at the (19)60s and the early (19)70s through mid (19)70s as a time when the divorce rate was at an all-time high, the lack of respect for authority, the victim culture started to come about, drugs, sexual revolution, a sense of irresponsibility. "I want it now" type of an attitude without thinking that you have to pay for these things down the road. The question I am asking is what do you think of those people that criticize basically this whole concept of self-esteem and this generation of Boomers that grew up during the (19)60s and (19)70s and putting the blame on them for the issues, the problems, we had today?
AC (00:40:06):
Well, one reflexive reaction I have is that people who have to support their own self-esteem by knocking others are not in very good shape. I think that that variable has been demonstrated to be critical for career success, for personal mental health. We have the whole positive psychology movement now. The [inaudible] and others have been so instrumental in putting on our screen. We have fortunately migrated away from the mental illness deficit model of thinking about people, and so I think it is highly unfortunate. Now, I think it is important to recognize that narcissism is not very healthy. This is one of the dynamics that occur during that sensitivity training era that you refer to that, if your only focus is on yourself and what is important to you and what makes you feel good and so on, that is pretty unhealthy. But self-esteem linked to purpose and identification, I mean with something larger than yourself, those two things need to go together. An exclusive focus on self can be pretty dysfunctional both for the person and for society, and that is why all the issues of purpose and meaning are important. But you do not have to engage with serious issues of purpose if you feel you are incompetent and inadequate, cannot function with other people, nobody ever pays attention to what you think or what you do, or you are irrelevant to things. You cannot have any impact on anything. So, when those attitudes and feelings are dominant, then there is no way you can invest yourself heavily in something larger than those preoccupations and your own immediate self-interest.
SM (00:43:18):
That is beautiful. Oh, I can see why you are so great at writing because you are able to put your words and have so much meaning there. You obviously raised... You have grandkids, so you had kids. Did you have a generation gap with your children over issues?
AC (00:43:48):
I do not think so. We are very lucky. We have a son and four daughters. They are all in their 50s now. They all love each other, they all support each other. They all love us and support us. And as we get into our 80s, they do so in increasing the specific ways. I mean the most difficult dynamic for me particularly, not so much for my wife, was with our oldest child, our son Allen. We have a son and three daughters. So, his movement through adolescence and into young adulthood was complicated in a variety of ways. Partly, I think because he took very seriously the attitudes and values and social concerns that Jo and I actively tried to address and live in terms of. He felt he had to go further and do more. So, he lived a life of intentional poverty for a while, and was draft resistor or not a draft resistor, but tax resistance.
SM (00:45:31):
Hold that point. I want to just turn my tape. Go right ahead.
AC (00:45:41):
And he was very interested in teaching, learning, and educational issues. But because of my status in the world of our education, but he was going up and going to college, trying to find his way into higher education. He spent six months at Empire-
AC (00:46:03):
... Empire education. He spent six months at Empire State, but it was just created yet. Then he went to University of Wisconsin at Green Bay when it was trying to be [inaudible] U, and finally ended up at the Evergreen State College. His whole relationship with the world of education and higher education was complicated by my status. As often occurs, I guess we had issues around money and stuff like that. So, we had a... I do not know, pick your number, maybe five, eight, 10-year period between his graduation from high school and getting through Evergreen and so forth that were very difficult for him, and challenging for Joe and me to know how to deal with it. Fortunately, we somehow ended of loving each other and supportive of each other. We own a house in Olympia, Washington where he stayed since he graduated from Evergreen, and I have a wonderful relationship. The girls are very supportive of him and us, and they have always had a good relationship with my wife, Joe, and me, and wonderful relationships with each other.
SM (00:47:37):
Good.
AC (00:47:37):
So, we are very lucky to have such a wonderful nuclear family, if you will.
SM (00:47:47):
Because I know that generation gap did tear a lot of families apart. The Boomer generation, my generation, of course, I looked at heroes and I never thought of my parents, although I do now as I have gotten older as my real heroes. But a lot of the heroes of the Boomers were leaders, political leaders, whether it be Dr. King or Bobby Kennedy or someone else, John Kennedy. They looked up to heroes. Whereas I have noticed today, Millennials very rarely if ever say any political leader of any kind, it could be a teacher, it could be a parent, it could be an uncle, it could be a minister. But very rarely any public figures, and I have even noticed in Generation X, the generation that followed Boomers, that there were very few political leaders or national leaders. The Boomers seemed to have them. What made Boomers so different than these others with respect to the people they looked up to?
AC (00:48:48):
Oh, well, I think the generation that followed the Boomers had a lot of anti-models. Nixon, I mean, whether you look at politics and all the scandals and self-interest and so forth, politics, whether you look at corporate sector and all the greed, and [inaudible] there, whether you look at the international domain and all the of religious and inter- tribal and inter-ethnic conflict, it was very hard to see people functioning in very admirable ways that you would want to identify with. I think that is why you had the whole shift of political and social activism to a much more local level. They were meeting people in their communities and in their states and so forth who they could know and who had a lot of integrity and who were putting their money where their mouth was and walking their talk, and all that, those bumper sticker ideas. So, the context, particularly I think with the Reaganism, is with the whole conservative movement that started with Reagan, had shifted the focus away from social concerns, about the environment, about race, about peace, away from those organizing issues that dominated the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Away from that, the self-interest and capitalism run amongst it. It was a very uninspiring and disillusioning social context to be growing up in.
SM (00:51:21):
What is interesting is that one of the characteristics of Boomers is that they do not trust because they saw a lot of leaders lie to them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, be it Watergate with Richard Nixon, even there was questions about President Kennedy and whether he had some links to the Diem overthrow in Vietnam, if you were pretty adept at keeping track of things, even President Eisenhower in (19)59 lied about the U-2 incident and of course, McNamara and the numbers. So, a lot of the Boomers just did not trust anybody in position of responsibility, whether it be a President of the United States, a Congressman, a Senator, a minister, a rabbi, a priest, a corporate leader, anyone. And president of a university and administrators. But in the end, they looked at the leaders as their heroes, but then they did not trust them. Do you think that is one of the qualities of the Boomer generation, that they are not a very trusting generation in your experiences with them?
AC (00:52:33):
Well, I had a lot of experiences with them, but I think as you kick off that litany, they had good reasons to not trust people. I think one of the things that made Obama an appealing was that, and particularly young people felt here was a guy who walked the talk, who could be trusted, and whose background was untarnished, and who we could put some faith in. Unfortunately, the political dynamics now are such that he is thought in politics as usual, and I think maintaining that hope and trust that he ignited is very difficult.
SM (00:53:40):
When you look at the Boomer generation, again, it is those people born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I know that many of the people born between (19)40, (19)41, and (19)46 are a little sensitive because a lot of them are linked to the Boomers, in many ways. In fact, many of the leaders of the anti-war movement were the age of graduate students. So, they were really in the (19)41, (19)42, (19)43 years. So, there is a link there, but when you look at some of these events, I would like your response to them, because these are the events that the Boomers were involved in when they were young in the (19)60s and through the mid (19)70s. Just your thoughts on the students who were going South for voter registration, the Freedom Summer, and the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64 and (19)65, and obviously the anti-war movement and the students involved in civil rights and the protests, and then you had the groups like Students for Democratic Society and the Young Americans for Freedom, and the Black Power students. These were all part of those (19)60s, and of course, the students that were involved, that persuaded President Kennedy at the University of Michigan to consider the Peace Corps. Then I am going to list some more later on, but your thoughts on those experiences of students and how important they were, and just your thoughts.
AC (00:55:12):
Well, I think one of the major points to recognize is that if you look across the population of college and university students during those years, only five to 15 percent of the students, even at the most activist campuses like Berkeley, Michigan, Kent State, so forth, only five to 15 percent of the students were really active and involved. When you look at the research on their background, by and large, their parents were activists during the Depression, during the (19)40s and so forth. But for me, the important point about that is that it demonstrates how a small, active, committed, energetic group of people can define the conversation and present the issue, can enable the creation of things like the Peace Corps. As Margaret Mead said, never underestimate the ability of one person or a small group of persons to change the world. But I think it is important to keep that in mind, and it is important to keep that in mind now as we confront the horrendous global problems that are rushing toward us in terms of global warming and peak oil, and all those issues. Unfortunately, I think what happened with the disillusion that sat in that you had referred to is that we forgot that taking on a small number of people who were willing to take on those issues could really have an impact. Obviously, those set of subcultures created context where people with similar concerns could put their time and energy and emotion and get invested in, and that is what higher education ought to be about in relation to our general culture. It ought to be about helping persons with in fact, on this self-esteem, purpose issue, helping persons connect their own particular attitudes and values, conservative or liberal, but with particular social issues that they can invest themselves in, at the same time they're raising a family and earning a living and so on.
SM (00:58:48):
During the (19)60s, obviously more minority students were on college campuses than ever before. That is so important. More women were admitted into medical schools and to law schools, and some all-male schools became co-ed. So those were important developments. But you saw in the late (19)60s something that upset a lot of people that cared about coming together as a nation. That was the Black Power Movement, which was in some respects, the Black Panthers, that historic scene of Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King in (19)67 and telling him that his time had passed. Then in (19)65 or (19)64, the debate between Malcolm X and Bayard Rustin where he said the very same thing, the non-violent protests, its time has passed. So, what you saw at Kent State University and the protests in 1970 was an all-white protest against the Vietnam War with African American students and students of color concentrating on the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power. Did that upset you at all when you were in college, that you saw the Dr. Kings, you saw affirmative action coming in strong into the universities, and then all of a sudden you had the Black Power, which started a separatist movement again of dividing people? Just your thoughts on that.
AC (01:00:15):
Well, whenever you have a hugely important social issue that has a direct impact on individuals, specifically those who are subject to the injustice and unfairness and prejudices, it is very hard to address that type of thing without having both significant diversity within the movements that are addressing it and extremes. So that is part of I think the way group processes and social dynamics work. I mean, that is what we are experiencing now with the Muslims.
SM (01:01:16):
Yes. I have a question later on that, yes.
AC (01:01:19):
And the extremists tend to drive, for better or worse, the extremist minority tends to drive the conversation, tends to drive the political responses. It is very hard for moderates, if you will, to know how to function within those concepts. we see the polarization within our own Congress, our Senate and Representatives now are between the Democrats as Republicans, are being driven wider and wider apart. So, you have really good moderates like Senator Bayh and others who say, "Well, I guess this is not the way I want to work now." I do not know how to combat that fundamental social dynamic other than increasing education, if you will, increasing everybody's awareness and sensitivity to these dynamics and increasing their capacity to think in more complex ways about the issues. Unfortunately, that is where higher education is failing us, I think.
SM (01:03:04):
Yeah, and I mean, you had right on target because we did a conference on Islam just before I left. It was packed, yet we had criticism from the Jewish community for even doing it. Would you say the Muslim students are the African American students of the (19)50s? Which would you compare them to what was going on with African American students in the (19)50s?
AC (01:03:29):
Oh, first I should say, I do not know. I do not know the data and I do not know from personal experience. Having said that, I think the issue of racism was much more broadly based and widespread and affected many, many more people in the United States than the religious prejudices that are operative now, with regard to Muslims. I think a lot of the dynamics are similar, the magnitude of the problem and the numbers of people affected, they were dramatically different. On a global scale, I think it is a much more serious issue obviously with... We did not have Black suicide bombers. We did not have to worry about African Americans or other Blacks from the Caribbean getting the nuclear bombs to blow the rest of us away. So, the issues of scale and potential danger are hugely different.
SM (01:05:01):
What are your thoughts on of course, in the early (19)70s, the Black Studies programs were under a lot of criticism when they were developed, and I was directly involved in those, actually did an independent study on it when I was at Ohio State. But with the development of the Women's Studies, Native American Studies, Black Studies, Environmental Studies, Asian Studies, Gay and Lesbian Studies, Chicano Studies, is that good for a university? Because the critics like David Horowitz and Charles Murray and others, and Phyllis Schlafly say that this is nothing but the troublemakers of the (19)60s now controlling universities of today. They have been doing so since the (19)90s, according to these individuals, that we have a politically correct campus. That just is not obvious. Again, just your thoughts and the development of all these studies programs and the criticisms of political correctness on university campuses, particularly with our professors.
AC (01:06:04):
I think those criticisms are very far-fetched. In the first place, it would be much better from my point of view if the criticism was more accurate. That is to say if issues having to do with racism, with gender equality, with hot button topics like abortion or so on were dealt with throughout the curriculum, but that does not happen. So, in the absence of that, I think it is extremely important and useful to have centers, institutes, whatever for the organization form they take to keep these issues alive, and where students and faculty and others learn about them, but with which they can identify and where they can get involved. If you look at [inaudible], I mean both criticisms have ignore the fact that higher education is dominated now by a market mentality that emphasizes professional and occupational preparation. That has in many colleges and universities driven a whole series of policies and practices with regard to consumers, students and parents and so forth, that are a direct reflection of the worst of our capitalistic practices.
SM (01:08:11):
That is amazing that you are saying that. I had this down as my last question. This is not my last question because we have got quite a few more, but I got to read this because you hit a button here that was going to be my last question to you. This was, do you believe today's universities are so driven by money, for example, just about everything is linked to fundraising, including out of classroom activities like lectures, forums, debates, conferences, cultural events, that quality out-of-classroom experiences are being denied, eliminated, or allowed with a price tag to the detriment of quality educational experience for students? And i.e., I say, top administration wants to dictate what can or cannot happen, only if it means it can be linked to a fundraising effort during tough economic times.
SM (01:09:03):
The fundraising effort during tough economic times, did you feel that is happening?
AC (01:09:08):
Oh, of course. It is happening dramatically, and I am going to have to stop in a bit here. I think what has happened is that, I did the speech at Florida State. I [inaudible] also email you if you want. That addresses a bunch of these problems. And higher education for years was seen as the public good, and that is why we had all state support, why you could go to the California system or New York system, virtually at very little cost. Now it has seen as a private benefit. State support now is, last numbers I saw for public institutions, is in the order of 20 or 25 to 30 or 35 percent. And as state support has dropped, states have authorized tuition increases to cover the cost. We are moving back into a meritocratic, aristocratic orientation for higher education. And that major shift in the last 10 or 20 years is what has driven this whole mentality that you're talking about. So higher education is not something that is seen as a politically important and socially important institution as a public good. And so consequently, our focus is more and more for professional vocational preparation and dollars drive the system.
SM (01:11:06):
We have got 15 more minutes if that is okay. Still there?
AC (01:11:13):
What? Say again.
SM (01:11:13):
We have 15 more minutes. Is that okay? Because that is an hour and a half.
AC (01:11:17):
Okay.
SM (01:11:18):
Okay, great. I am glad I got that question in. Kent State University in 1970 and Jackson State was certainly a monumental nightmare for the Boomer generation. Where were you when you heard about it and what do you think the impact of that day, May 4th and two weeks later when two African American students were killed, what impact did that have on not only the generation but on higher education?
AC (01:11:56):
I just have to say I do not know. I remember when Kennedy was shot, but I do not remember where I was when I got that news. Just thinking off the top of my head, I do not know that those two horrendous events had a major distinctive impact because they were part of the whole continuum of dramatic events and activities that were going on with all the sit-ins and demonstrations. They were an unfortunate, tragic extension of that whole process. So, in and of themselves, they amplified that, but I do not think had any particular distinctive impact.
SM (01:13:00):
Well, in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
AC (01:13:07):
When did the (19)60s begin and end?
SM (01:13:09):
Yes.
AC (01:13:19):
Well, I think it began, the early (19)60s for me and my family and the Goddard community were dominated by Cold War issues and the atomic bomb issue. And when Gorbachev came to power and that whole dynamic, if you will, started to get cooled out, I think that allowed us to turn our attention to other issues like the environment, race and other major social issues. So, for me, I think the dropping away of the Cold War was a major variable in freeing us up to address other issues, economically, politically, socially.
SM (01:14:39):
And when do you feel it ended?
AC (01:14:42):
With Reagan's election.
SM (01:14:45):
Good. That is a good point. I personally felt that when streaking started on the college campuses in (19)73, I knew it was over. If you remember, that happened in the fall of (19)73.
AC (01:15:00):
Well, you have all these wonderful details.
SM (01:15:05):
Yeah, this is your interview, but-
AC (01:15:07):
It is going to be an interesting book.
SM (01:15:10):
Yeah. The AIDS crisis was obviously a very important thing in the (19)80s and on college campuses, the AIDS quilt. There was a lot of sensitivity toward that particular issue and gay and lesbian students obviously came to the forefront at that particular time. Just your thoughts on the impact that the AIDS crisis had on the higher education community.
AC (01:15:38):
Well, it is certainly pulled out the whole sexual freedom that burst onto the scene in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, with the drugs, drink and sex.
SM (01:16:02):
Right.
AC (01:16:12):
But it is also in a more healthy way, helped us be more aware of and thoughtful about the whole issue of homosexuality, particularly among men. And I think that was a good thing.
SM (01:16:32):
Where did the universities fail in the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Are you aware, as obviously as a college administrator has experienced and a professor who has experienced so much, there has been little talk about the loss of a lot of the great professionals in student affairs who just burned out. And I have even read stories of some people became sick, some who died even because they could no longer take the students of the (19)60s and early (19)70s because many of the students had this philosophy, well, if you give into these issues and I will just make another 10. And so there was no, oftentimes criticism of the Boomers is that they were never satisfied even when administrations tried to satisfy them. Just your thoughts of, and certainly Kent State was an example of presidential failure, the President being away, and some of the other examples. Just your perceptions of the universities in the (19)60s. And when I say (19)60s, I mean right up to about (19)73, where did they fail and where did they succeed?
AC (01:17:49):
Well, I really cannot respond to that question. I was drowning, from (19)71 to (19)77, I was working 70 or 80 hours a week creating Empire State College. As I said earlier, I was focused on adult learners. And I knew about the University Without Walls movement because it started at [inaudible]. Empire State was associated with that, but I was really not tuned into the rest of the world of higher education.
SM (01:18:37):
Okay. One of the main questions I have asked beyond the question of trust is the question of healing. And everybody has given me a lot of different responses. I took a group of students to Washington, DC when I was working at the University at Westchester. And the students came up with this question because they had seen a film on 1968, and they wanted to ask Senator Muskie this question because they thought that they had gotten the perception that we were close to a second civil war in 1968 with all the divisions. And basically, I am going to read it here, if I can find it. Let us see if I can find, probably not going to be able appointed here. I think the basic thrust was, oh, here it is. Do you feel bloomers are still having a problem with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the divisions between black and white, the divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wounds. And so, they asked Senator Muskie that question because of 1968 and his response, he did not even respond in the way we thought. He said we had not healed since the Civil War and went on to give a lecture on why we had not healed since the Civil War. But your thoughts on whether you think the Boomer generation has issues. Well, I know they do not wear it on their sleeve as some people said, but do you think there are some of the divisions and think people care enough that they really have not healed since those times?
AC (01:20:36):
Well, I am no social historian, but certainly if you look at what is going on politically, we have become, and if you listen to seasoned legislators like [inaudible] and others, the whole culture of Congress in the Senate and the House has changed so that it has become more divisive, more acrimonious, less civil, less collaborative, and our whole culture has become divided. And I think the media, particularly the blogs and social technology media, which give a loud voice to a very small number of people. And so, you have extreme points of view that yes, a level of visibility and attention that unwarranted both by the substance of the basis for their comments and also by their numbers, helped drive these extremes seriously.
SM (01:22:15):
If you were to give a term to the Boomer Generation, a lot of people say they are the Vietnam generation. Some say they are the Woodstock Generation or the protest generation or the movement generation. What if you were to give them a title, what would it be?
AC (01:22:45):
Transition, I guess.
SM (01:22:47):
Transition generation? Do you think that the universities today did not learn from the student activists of the (19)60s and they are afraid of a return of activism? The kind of activism we are seeing in California right now with students protesting against the tuition increases, and there is a fledgling movement against the war in Afghanistan and other issues. But are they afraid of a return?
AC (01:23:17):
Well, I do not know about afraid of a return, but universities are typically afraid of vigorous activism. Anything that challenges authority or threatens the status quo is scary. And when it gets mobilized, and again, now if it gets mobilized by extremists, it make sense to be concerned.
SM (01:23:46):
Right. When the best history books are written, sociology books on the legacy of the Boomer Generation, that is those born between (19)46 and (19)64, what do you think the history books, books on higher ed, sociology books will say about this Boomer Generation?
AC (01:24:06):
They brought a whole range of ideals that went unrealized.
SM (01:24:20):
Good point. Now, I had this one little segment here, but we may go over. You have to finish right at 1:30?
AC (01:24:26):
Well, I need to stop in five or 10 minutes, yeah.
SM (01:24:31):
Okay. What we will do is real fast here is I am just going to give some names. Some of them were the heroes of the generation, and just your thoughts on these individuals that were all well-known during the timeframe. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
AC (01:24:52):
Oh, they were good models.
SM (01:24:55):
John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
AC (01:24:58):
They were fabulous example, each. Kennedy was flawed by his womanizing some, John. Jack, was. Bobby, in a way was cleaner, but also very aggressive, unbalanced, wonderful.
SM (01:25:24):
How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
AC (01:25:28):
They were my heroes.
SM (01:25:30):
You liked them both?
AC (01:25:31):
Yes.
SM (01:25:32):
How about Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X?
AC (01:25:37):
Well, certainly Martin Luther King is everybody's hero. Malcolm X played a major important role, I think, in strengthening Black pride and Black activists.
SM (01:25:53):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
AC (01:25:58):
Nixon got what he deserved, and Agnew should have been more severely chastised.
SM (01:26:10):
LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?
AC (01:26:13):
Oh, well, they were both wonderful populists and excellent contributors to the public good.
SM (01:26:23):
Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
AC (01:26:27):
I do not know enough. I recognize the names, but I do not know enough of what actually impact they might have had to make a comment.
SM (01:26:37):
Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, the women leaders?
AC (01:26:43):
Well, Friedan and Steinem certainly put the whole gender issues on the public screen, and Bella Abzug was a wonderful feminist political leader.
SM (01:26:58):
Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford?
AC (01:27:03):
Well, they were establishment politicians that did not have... Well, I was going to say, have any enduring legacy. Of course, we have Eisenhower to thank for our national highway system, which has become a very unfortunate kind of phenomenon in the degree to which it has totally undercut investment in public transportation.
SM (01:27:35):
Robert Reagan and Jimmy Carter?
AC (01:27:36):
Well, as I have said, I think Reagan's conservatism caused major problems. Jimmy Carter, unfortunately, was not a very effective president, but has been a wonderful post-president the person.
SM (01:27:59):
How about George Bush senior and Bill Clinton?
AC (01:28:05):
Well, Bush senior was thought of a modest, mediocre President. Clinton was one of our most effective politicians who unfortunately was incapacitated by his sexuality.
SM (01:28:29):
1968?
AC (01:28:32):
1968?
SM (01:28:34):
The year.
AC (01:28:39):
I do not know. I do not have anything I identify with [inaudible].
SM (01:28:42):
Was the year of the assassinations and the conventions.
AC (01:28:45):
Ph, okay. So sorry.
SM (01:28:48):
The Black Panthers, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, that group?
AC (01:29:00):
Well, those extreme activist for the Black Power, Black is Beautiful orientation were probably necessary and helpful.
SM (01:29:19):
Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Berrigan.
AC (01:29:24):
Two very different people. We raised our kids on Spock and I admired Berrigan for his activism.
SM (01:29:33):
How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?
AC (01:29:36):
Wonderful, wonderful example of conscientious activism.
SM (01:29:46):
Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali.
AC (01:29:50):
Well, two wonderful Black athletes who broke a lot of ground, especially Jackie Robinson.
SM (01:29:57):
How about the original seven astronauts?
AC (01:30:02):
Well, I think on balance, going to the moon was a good thing, although I do not place a high value on our investments in space exploration.
SM (01:30:15):
Robert McNamara?
AC (01:30:19):
Well, bringing a General Motors mentality to the Defense Department I do not think was very helpful.
SM (01:30:31):
Watergate?
AC (01:30:34):
Well, it was a wonderful demonstration. In its aftermath, one way it represented the extreme of political self-interest in Woodward and Bernstein revelations, turned out to be a wonderful example of how investigative reporting and democratic processes [inaudible].
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Arthur Chickering
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Chickering, Arthur W., 1927- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Authors; Scholars; Chickering, Arthur W., 1927--Interviews
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Dr. Arthur W. Chickering is an author, scholar, and researcher. His research is in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-09
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.39
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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91:09
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed2e883f67959182a88b2050bdbc9294.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
•
•
Ha·r pur Coll,e ge Orchestra
w
I
May 21, 1965
Note iS
----·- -,
Vivaldi is remembered today chi,e fly fo,r his i.nstrumental works., ·b,u t he was a
prolifi,c ,c ,o mposer in all genres. a brilliant violinist, and the p,rofessor of vio,l in
and ma.estro dei co,ncerti. (fro:m 1.716) at the Ospitale della Pi,e ta in V•e nic,e (a ·conservatory
fo,r foundling girls),.. It was in the latter capacity that he composed his numero·u s co,n certi
gros.s i, concerti ripieni, an,d solo, concerto,s. (,o v,e r 40 0)·, for h,e had to, provide his students
c,o ntinuously with fresh. material.. The C•o n.certo in E. Minor, found in manuscript in
Turin,, demonstrates a. half-way point b,etween t.he c,o ncerto grosso with its-two o,p posing
g .r oup,s and t .h.e opera_,o vertur,e or sinfonia,, for it has, neither solo parts n.o r introduces
an opera. Thus it falls in a. category designated by Vivaldi as a. con,c erto ripieno•, in
which the fo,u r string sections are ,e ,q ually bal.ance•d and poly·p ho:n ically used. The first
an,d last movements, of this parti cular wor·k. a.re very contrapunt.a l, while th.e se,c ,o n.d mo,v e ment is lyric an.d..homophonic. A. proof of the individuality and. pro,v ,o cativ,e character
o,J Vivaldi 1·s works lies in the fact th.at ,J . S. Bach later u,s ed many of them as raw material
for his ,o·w n compositions . Vi va1di himself o,f ten us·e d his own them.e s mo,re than once and
anoth.e :r concerto of .h is •o pens with a theme very similar to the first theme ,o f the first
movement in this wo.r k. His themes are often characterize·d by repeated notes while· .hi.s
gen,e ral style is ide:n tifiable by its rh.y thmi.c drive a.n d. vitality.
1
w ·ag.n ,e r composed the Siegfried Idyll in 1870 as a b,i rthday p:res.ent to his wife Cosima
and it was perf',o r:m ed. as a ,s erenade by a sm.a ll or,c hestr.a on the stairway ,o,f their home.
One of the few pi,e c,e s of 11 absolute" music Wagner-- wrote, it is 'b ased on two the.m es he had
written ,e arlier in 1864 and had intended for a string quartet . The pie,c e is scored fo,r
strings,. flut.e, oboe~ 'b,a soon, trumpet,, 2 clarinets, and 2 ho,rns,, and is delicately an.d
intricately orche strated. Although. written i.11 one movem.e nt it has several .s ,e ctions
·p resenting a vart-ety of moo,ds an.d textures.
One of the most prolific composers flourisl1ing ,d uring the first half of the eighteenth
ce11tury, Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767), composed over 170 concertos, besides
numerous other works ranging fr,o m. ope ras to fantasias for solo violin. His fame as a
com.p ose.r and particularly .a ,s a ,c ontrapuntalist spread throughout E·urope, and twi,c e· he was
given precedence over Bach in b,eing off,e r,e d positio,n s. (It was o.n ly after he and a second
choice ha.d refused the coveted post of twon music dir,e ctor and cantor of the Thomassch.ule
a.t L •e·ipzig th.a t Bach was offered this position . ) Telema.n.n . serv,e ,d a.t Ha.m.b,u.rg fr,o m 1721
until his ,d eath as town music di.rector, composing and directing operas) passionsJ cantatas., an,d. v.a rious ch.a mber ensembles. His w·orks reflect many diverse influences inclu.ding the orn.a te Italia.n opera 1 the French suite 1, tl1e polyphonic ,c oncert,o gro:s so, and
the simpler, folk-like d.iv·e rtiment!:>. This c·o ncerto d:e rives its form from the B.a roque
S·o nata da. cch i.esa o,r church sonata with four· mo·v ements of .a .lternating tempi , th,e first
and third being ,s low, th.e fo,rmer in duple and th,e latter in. triple m ,e ter. It also ,c ontains
elements of the concerto gro,ss,o , in wh.ich two groups of different siz•e are contrasted;: here
the oboe takes the place of the smaller g·roup (con.c ertino,),, wh.i.ch is pitted against th·e
main b,ody of strings (the ripieno),.
Haydn co,m pose,ci the Symp,h ony No. 99 in 1793-94 ,d u.r in.g the inte.r im between his two
t .r ips to Lon,d o.n . This wa.s the ,s eventh of the so-call ed. "London Symph.o,n ies 0 --Nos . 93-104- •-·
written fo,r th.e imp,ressario Salomon, who had .a rrang,e d Haydn's visit to London an.d conducted his con.c ert series there. It is the first symph.o.n y in which H.a ydn used the clarinet
altho·u gh 'h e ha,d used it pr,e viou.s ly in oth,e r works. Th·e first movement o,p,e ns with a slow
·introducti.,o n followed by an allegro in so,n .a ta :form... The ,s ec.on,d theme upon whic.h the
development se ,c tion is based proves to b,e ,o f great,e r significance tha.n the ftrst theme,. and.
th.e recapitulatto:n continu,e s to dev,e lop and expand this subj•e ct m .a tter. Th•e second. movement is cast in a de,e per, .m :o.r e meditative mo,o dt co,n trastin.g sharply with th,e gayj, folklike quality of the minuet . The contrapuntal ,c har.a cter of the last movement,, calling fo·r
fugue -like ii.mitati,o n at breathless spe·ed. forms a fittin.g and joyful climax to the work.
1
STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AT BINGHAMTON
Harpur Co,I le ge·
***Th•e Ha.r pur Colleg·e Orchestra***
Fritz. Wa.llenberg, Condu,c tor
F ril day,. Ma.y 21
8:15 P . M.
Harpur Theater
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The Harpur Coll,e ge ,o rchestra
____P'ROGRAM
________ ___
_____
Violin I
F ,e nimore, P 'a ula - Concerlma.s t,e r
Is.ham., Patricia
Prytula, Christine
,
,
C ,o n ,c e rto in e •- min ,o r for strin.g ,s . . . . . . . . Ant onto Vival ,d i
(1678 - 17',41)
. ·R obb,ins, N:ancy
1
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Duroche., Leo,
Flutes
Jack.s on, :M argaret
Wallenb,,e rg,, Marianne
Walls, Anita
Cohn, Debbi.e
,Q boe
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Allegr ,o, moderato
Andante
Allegro
Siegfried Idyll.
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'• • ' I ., ,• •
Richard Wa ,g ner
(18,13 ... 188 .3 )
1
Conc ,e rto for ·O boe and strings in •e -minor ...
,G eorge Philipp Telemann
(16, 81 ... 1767)
Andante
Violin. II
Blauser, Henry
Duda,, G.r ances
Gaylord, Anne
Gothe lf, 1S arah
Grup:s m.ith, ,Q,e,o rg,e
Loewenstein., Fr'itz
Pow·a.zek., Irene
Viola
Colto•n , .R usse 11
C•o lt,o n, Mart'h.a
Sajor·, Laurie·
-
Cello,
Battin, William
Grub,er, Kathy
Livings.tone .,, Christin':!
Zimmerm.a n. Susan
Allegr ,o m •o lt ,o,
Largo
Mohn, Abigail
S,t olarc.y k, Ri cha.rd
Clarinet
- A--.; .rt
_-' h ur
A-._b rah_ams,
Duncan,. Candy
.
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1
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B assoon
Walk.e r, Stephen
Eddy, Scott
Fren.c h Hor.n
Evansohn, Jo,h n
McC,o o,1, Martha
Trumpet
Mayer, .J ack
Backlund, Fr,e d
Timp.a ni .
lac.o v,a z z.i, F rar1k
Alle ,g ro
Continuio
Ro•b bins,, Do,n ald
Ha:r psicho•r d: Courtes,y of Do,n ald Robbins
Solo•is.t: .L aila Storch
INTERMISS,I ON
Sym ·p hony No .
99
.,
l ll
e -flat m.a.jor.
. t ; t , 1 1•
• i . ••
. Joseph Haydn
(173 .2 - 18 09)
1
Adagio; Vivace assai
Ad ago
Me,nuetto Allegrett ,o
Vivace
•
I
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1960's - present
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Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
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Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&tab=LibraryCatalog&search_scope=MyInstitution&vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&mode=basic&offset=0&conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email: <a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a>
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Concert, 1965-05-21
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Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings
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Works by Vivaldi, Wagner, Telemann, and Haydn.
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Harpur College Orchestra
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Vivaldi, Antonio, 1678-1741 ; Wagner, Richard, 1813-1883 ; Telemann, Georg Philipp, 1681-1767 ; Haydn, Joseph, 1732-1809 ; State University of New York at Binghamton. Department of Music
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1965-05-21
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sound
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39091019618952 ; 39091019619000
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65829d97b5e87e01bfb4eca9cf8f290c.jpg
96123d3f7b6889b06c9c8014011cfb05
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Paul Von Blum
Date of Interview
2010-02-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He recevied his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.</span>
Duration
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150:50
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968</span>
Subject LCSH
College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul von Blum
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 13 July 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
The first question I have is what were your ear early years, where did you grow up, where did you go to high school and college, and who were the greatest influences in your life early on? Was it parents, teachers? What was it in your environment that made you who you are?
PVB (00:00:20):
Yeah, I grew up in Philadelphia, so I am a Philly kid, but I grew up in a very politically active household. The family background was crucial, both in terms of my intellectual consciousness and my political activism. I come from a Holocaust background. My father was the sole survivor of his family. I actually have a memoir coming out in about a month and a half where I detail all of this. But my father was the sole survivor and very early on in my own life, it was perfectly clear that he understood that racism, that the same racism that killed his entire immediate family was virtually identical the racism that was oppressing the African-American population in the United States. Very early on in Philadelphia, I learned the kind of profound and vigorous anti-racism growing up. From early childhood, I grew up in a progressive family in Philadelphia, and I think probably the seminal event growing up, not in Philly, although I was born in Philly, we lived in a variety of suburbs, Delaware County, Montgomery County, and then most significantly, in Bucks County. As a kid, I went to the Philadelphia public schools and the variety of suburban schools, but the most seminal event occurred in 1957, one of the huge racial crises of the United States. The early civil rights movement occurred there in 1957 when I was 14. My parents and several other families broke the color line in Levittown. Levittown, as you may know, was one of the large post-second World war suburban development. My parents moved there because it was an opportunity for World War II veterans in particular to buy low cost housing. We moved there from Philly. What my parents did not realize was that Levitt would not sell to African Americans. I think we moved there in 1955 when I was 12, and by the time I was 13, my parents were involved in an almost conspiratorial way with a variety of other families, almost entirely, not completely, but almost entirely Jewish in meeting to do something about the break from the color line. By August of 1957, they had arranged for the first black family, Bill and Daisy Meyers moved in. The story of the Levittown integration crisis is well known, and in 1957 in August, there were huge riots, white racist riots in Levittown testing the entry of the first they called Negro family. I was the oldest of four children then there. Now, there were five. Another one was born afterwards and I was the oldest of the five, so I was involved as a spectator in all of the meetings. I was curious, so I went to all of those. I was there when the Myers then moved in, I was there when the mobs gathered and I was there less than a month later when they get Ku Klux Klan in Pennsylvania right across our lawn. In fact in December of 1957, I actually testified against the Ku Klux Klan in Doylestown. My activism started very early on and I saw the kind of vicious hate-filled white racist mobs. They called themselves the Levittown Betterment Committee. Even as an early teenager, I was exposed to the horrific character of American racism and those were probably the seminal events that molded my anti-racist attitude that have remained to this day. Still, I am a professor of African-American studies at [inaudible] and there is a direct connection between my teenage experiences in Levittown and my professional and activist life year.
SM (00:05:07):
I think there is a book that just came out on Levittown about that.
PVB (00:05:10):
I have read it.
SM (00:05:11):
Yeah, and I bought it. I got so many books I bought, I have not had a chance to read. Obviously, what a great upbringing in terms of learning early on and helping shape who you are, particularly when you see injustice and you want to fight it. Would you say that your parents were your heroes because your parents were taking the lead there?
PVB (00:05:32):
They were the daily role models. They stood up courageously and at a great cost because in 1957 it was kind of late McCarthyism. McCarthy himself had faded, but there was still a great deal of retribution against what was then called premature anti-racist. My father kept losing his jobs, politically inspired losses obviously, and that is what in 1959 of our move to California. My parents traveled in kind of left-wing circles, and so I was exposed early on to that whole leftist culture, not a communist culture by the way. It was a very radical culture, but my parents were never in the party. When I was five years old living in Philadelphia, my parents were active in the Progressive Party campaign by Henry Wallace, party Turgeon campaign in (19)48. But my parents, unlike many of the progressive party supporters, were not communist party members. They were in the non-communist left.
SM (00:06:51):
Yeah. I mentioned there, and I noticed in reading that you are a big fan of Paul Robeson-
PVB (00:06:57):
Extremely.
SM (00:06:58):
I want to tell you a story, but this is your interview, but I think it is important to the question. I know all about what happened in 1947 in Peekskill New York. I found out about this many years after my grandfather died. My grandfather was the Methodist minister in Peekskill from 1954, no, excuse me, 1936 to 1954. I never knew any of this because he died in 1956, but in reading the history books, I could not believe that my grandfather lived in a town that did such terrible things to Paul Robeson.
PVB (00:07:31):
It was horrible.
SM (00:07:32):
Pete Seeger was there with him too.
PVB (00:07:34):
Absolutely, so were other luminaries like Howard Bass and a variety of others.
SM (00:07:41):
I am a big fan of Paul Robeson too. He was a, what do you call, man for all seasons. He was town in so many different ways.
PVB (00:07:48):
Everything. I am the first person ever to do an entire university course on Paul Robeson and it is fair to say that from early childhood, I was introduced to Paul Robeson, not only as a singer but as a political activist. My parents said that they introduced me to him in 1948 at the Progressive Party Convention. I do not recall it, but from early childhood on, and this continues through my adult life, I would say that of all the people in America, he is my biggest inspiration. One for his extraordinary courage and two for his multidimensional talents with a sole exception of his problematic personal life, which I do not particularly admire. But other than that, he would be my kind of role model, somebody who was brilliant at everything he did and who had the courage of his convictions throughout the entirety of his life.
SM (00:08:59):
One thing I find about when you study America in the beginning, near a time when boomers were born after World War II, that period between (19)46 and (19)60 really is that many of the people that were persecuted, I think, whether it be the Hollywood Ten or people in government, professors in universities, all kinds of people, and Paul Robeson being one of them, is that many times the reason they became linked to the Communist Party is because that was the only party that dealt with the issue of race.
PVB (00:09:37):
They were among the best on the issue of race. Going back to the (19)30s, they were upfront about the Scottsboro case. My parents, they always knew communists. They were always fond of them, but they were themselves never party members. I have ambivalence about the communists, I have always respected them. And this is also generational, when I was born in 1943 and was very much active vigorously in the (19)60s, and so my generation of activists hardly ever joined the Communist Party. I always respected them for what they did. The other hand, I was never blind to their blindness about the Soviet Union challenge. I was always critical of that. I remained so in my teaching, I always point out about the Communist Party blindness toward the Soviet and Stalin's crimes, including Paul Robeson. I am well respected in the ropes and community, but I have never been reluctant to criticize him for his own blindness about Stalin and the Soviet Union.
SM (00:10:53):
Would not you say though that there was some truth in that late (19)40s and 1950s, maybe even the first few years of the (19)60s, that the people that had some people who had been communists really disliked Stalin, disliked him immensely. They only cared about the issue of race, so, and they got caught up on being blamed for liking the communist system, which they did not.
PVB (00:11:16):
Sure. Now, there were some like that. There were well-meaning people and I continued to have respect for a lot of them. Many of those people are no longer around. I mean, that is generational. Many of them have passed along. I concur with that.
SM (00:11:34):
I want you to put your teacher's cap on now because I have some really cross questions to ask about you, not as a student now, but as a young professor in the (19)60s and (19)70s. As a teacher, beginning at Berkeley in the (19)60s through today at UCLA, what in your view, did the university learn from student activism and protests on their campuses?
PVB (00:12:00):
They did not learn enough. This is extremely important to me. I went to Berkeley in the (19)60s, was very active in the free speech movement, and I think that was one of the moral highlights of the entire history of the University of California. Beyond the specific issue of free speech, what we tried to do in the free speech movement at Berkeley was to reform the university so that it would make the big prestigious research universities to make undergraduate education a much higher priority. As a personal academic, 42 years standing, that has been my highest priority. I am sorry to say that at the institutional level, I have not been particularly successful. At the individual level, I have been spectacularly successful. But the university's priorities have at places like at the University of California, the University of Wisconsin and Michigan, places like that, by and large, they are indifferent to the needs of undergraduate students. What they have learned from the (19)60s, unfortunately, is how to be more clever at containing student protests.
SM (00:13:20):
Yeah, they are much more subtle, so to speak.
PVB (00:13:25):
They are. With a couple of exceptions, they no longer bring in the police and the storm troopers to beat people up. They have learned to be much more adaptable, they have learned how to pat students on the head and referred things to committees that never do anything. They no longer use the tactics of brutality that they used when I was a student.
SM (00:13:53):
What I find interesting, and I do not know about every campus here just from what I know, is that universities have designated spaces where students can protest. Obviously, you do not want them in front of a building when a person's teaching a class, so I think one of them they had learned that disrupt classes time is not the right thing to do. It creates a negative image. But if I were a student today, knowing what happened back then, I would be protesting. The fact that I have to... This is my space, it is the only place that kind of-
PVB (00:14:37):
Some schools have attempted to do that. Universities are within their constitutional rights that say that there is certain places you cannot... You cannot walk into a professor's class right in the middle of a class because any public entity has legitimate time, place mannered regulations. On the other hand, you cannot just take one small part of a campus and say, this is your free speech area. That violate the First Amendment. I should add here, I am not sure when you have looked me up, I am also a lawyer.
SM (00:15:06):
No.
PVB (00:15:08):
I know something about the First Amendment. I have an undercurrent of political legal experience. It is not a major part of my professional or personal identity, but I paid $410 a year to keep my state bar membership up.
SM (00:15:24):
Well, that is good.
PVB (00:15:25):
But I know something about this.
SM (00:15:27):
Yeah, I remember recently in the interview process, I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering. I do not know if you know him.
PVB (00:15:33):
Yeah, he has done a lot of writing on higher ed.
SM (00:15:37):
He wrote Education and Identity, the Seven Vectors of Development, and he is anything but a radical. He is retired now but I asked him in the interview, is there anything in the universities today that you regret or any thoughts? He says, "Yes, I regret the corporate takeover again of universities."
PVB (00:15:59):
That is a huge problem and it is moving vigorously in that direction, and I regret it profoundly.
SM (00:16:08):
These are some specific things here. Now, what did you learn from the free speech movement itself in (19)64 and (19)65?
PVB (00:16:15):
What I learned was that in order to get anything done in a university, you need sustained collective action. I know from my own career that the successful mobilization of student power can be extremely effective. There have been several instances in my own unusual career trajectory when I have been under attack by university authorities, where I have been able to mobilize student power. It is not so much that they have saved me, which they have, but they have been able to mobilize on behalf of the educational ideals that I have represented for over 40 years.
SM (00:16:59):
Obviously, these are all issues that were important in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It was even still, some of these things were happening in the (19)80s and (19)90s, but seemed to not be happening today. What did the universities learn about military recruits on campus because they were back?
PVB (00:17:14):
They were back. I remember both as a students, as young faculty member at Berkeley, we tried to resist that. It is an ongoing problem. At a place like UCLA, we do not have a lot of military recruitment. Basically today, military recruiting is done in working class and neighborhoods where you have a proportion of very poor people and especially people of color. It is not as huge deal as it was because we do not have a draft.
SM (00:17:49):
We have already talked about this, but what did they learn about too much corporate control or respect to fundraising, which fundraising is such a big thing that the presidents do at all universities, so they may have control over speakers or ideas. Just your thoughts on fundraising within universities today-
PVB (00:18:09):
That is all basically all they really care about, it is money, and increasingly, you have a corporate dominated university, even a public university, which remains a public entity, you now have corporate sponsorship of research projects, you have corporate sponsorship of athletic programs, you have corporate sponsorship. Even of buildings in the new school of management is now the Anderson School of Management, expect soon with this trajectory that they will start naming the restrooms after-
SM (00:18:48):
Yeah. I was joking after spending 22 years at a university, and I said, "Well, I wonder what they had put my name on." I think someone joke and said, "Gee, you might get a stall in one of the restrooms," but it would still cost at least a minimum of 10 grand.
PVB (00:19:06):
10 grand. I was thinking that would cost me that for a urinal.
SM (00:19:12):
Good. Who knows? What do you think the universities learned from activist students, the concept of student empowerment? Because students have power today because they control budgets, and I know that students are somewhat linked to presidents overall. Presidents are trying to link up with students more and more. There is a really good website yesterday on CNBC about the president of George Washington University trying to get close to his students.
PVB (00:19:40):
Yeah, I hope I do not sound excessively cynical, but it seems to me that universities have learned and effectively how-to co-op their students. What they do is they take student leaders to lunch, they promise them letters of recommendation for law school, they bring them to banquets. They do a variety of things in order to neutralize them, in order to keep them from becoming basically a significant effect of oppositional element. Students and administrations are naturally and should be naturally at odds with one another, but university administrators become increasingly sophisticated at muting those tensions. It varies obviously from campus to campus year to year, but they have done a basically good job of keeping student oppositional forces. Although, sometimes they cannot do very much, much about it. Last November, for example, when the regents of the University of California hit the students with a 33, 34 percent fee increase, there were huge rallies throughout the university, and I was one of the speakers. I am an effective public speaker and I will continue to do that a long time to come.
SM (00:21:12):
In some sense, the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s really did not fear about being active with respect to getting a job whereas the students of the day, if they act, they might not get the recommendations they need to-
PVB (00:21:26):
Yeah, they are very worried. I understand that it is a tough economy. I have a lot of friends who are very, very active 40 years ago, and many of them remain as I do, very politically active, and we talk about these things. We were never really concerned about what the implications would be, we were out on the streets doing what we did with very minimal concern about what the future implications of our activism would be. That is not the case with a lot of young people today. When I tell them that I got arrested several times, they say, "But did not it hurt your career?" I said, "Obviously, it did not hurt my career. I am standing in front of you in a classroom."
SM (00:22:14):
What did the universities learn from Kent State and Jackson State in 1970? I am going to preface this with just a comment.
PVB (00:22:25):
Go ahead.
SM (00:22:26):
You never hear about it.
PVB (00:22:27):
No, you never hear about it. My students have occasionally heard of Kent State, they have never heard of Jackson State. Never. Every time I mentioned Jackson state, it is absolutely new. I think what the universities have learned is that in both cases, it was a public relations disaster. They have learned to take all kinds of steps, never to replicate that again. It is extremely unlikely that we will ever see that kind of fatality on a university campus of that magnitude. They will never let that happen again.
SM (00:23:05):
What do you think the university has learned from controversial speakers on campus? One of the criticisms of the new left today is that the controversial speakers that were on college campuses in the (19)60s and (19)70s, whether Kathleen Cleaver, the Black Panthers or like that, some of the universities did not really like for public relations reasons, has now shifted where the new left of liberal professors and administrators do not like conservative speakers on campus like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin. Really, what the liberals are doing is exactly what the administrators were thinking back in the (19)60s. What are your thoughts?
PVB (00:23:49):
I am a strong believer in free speech and where you have leftist attempts to censor people, I would resist that. Having said that, there is no particular reason to ask a Michelle Malkin or an Ann Coulter to come to her university. They have nothing to offer. I have no problem with having thoughtful conservatives, and there are many, but neither Ann Coulter nor Michelle Malkin fall into that category. They are not serious thinkers.
SM (00:24:21):
How about Pat Buchanan and Bay Buchanan?
PVB (00:24:25):
They would be worth hearing. I would easily chop either of them up in a debate, but I would not debate an Ann Coulter. The last time I had a debate with somebody as that, I debated the former Congressman William Dannemeyer from Orange County, he was a moron. I could have had a lobotomy and beaten him in the debate. If you are going to have a debate, you should have somebody of reasonable stature and somebody who is not a buffoon like Ann Coulter.
SM (00:25:01):
I know that the two that seem to have the greatest strengths is William Bennett and Dinesh D'Souza because they are...
PVB (00:25:08):
They are smart enough so that they are entitled to make a debate. I just dislike both. I do not know either of them, but I just like their position but either of them would be a significantly worthy adversary.
SM (00:25:26):
I am almost done with this little thing, these are all important. What did they learn from Columbia University? What happened there and the Harvard Yard and protests?
PVB (00:25:37):
Oh, they have learned to be much more clever. It is extremely unlikely that you will have another Columbia in (19)68. Today's administrators are just a lot more clever than they were a couple of generations. That is going to happen again. They know how to do it, they have become much more patient. They have social control experts and they just know what they are doing more. In some respect, we would be better off if we had better have these more vigorous confrontations, but we will not.
SM (00:26:21):
What did we learn from, and this happened on my campus, Tommy the Narcs?
PVB (00:26:26):
They came.
SM (00:26:26):
Yeah, they came looking for drugs.
PVB (00:26:35):
Well, that is part of the anti-drug hysteria in this country. I would hope that in [inaudible], some of that will dissipate. Yeah, you hardly have any of that. Certainly, you have drugs on every campus, but the biggest drug abuse on most campuses that I can certainly say that with a lot of confidence at UCLA is alcohol abuse.
SM (00:27:06):
Two more here. What did they learn from affirmative action and from curriculum reform? Those are the two...
PVB (00:27:13):
Well, I have been a proponent for 40 years for both. In California, of course, in affirmative action, we have the Notorious Proposition 209, and so we have been fighting... One of my departments is African-American Studies, and I am a member of the Ralph Gate Bunche Center for African-American Studies. We have been in the forefront about trying to do something about the profound underrepresentation of African-American students. We have made modest progress, but I am a strong and vigorous supporter of affirmative action. We need another generation of affirmative action. We have a long way to go. In terms of curricular reform, we are not even close to what we need. We have had some modest curricular improvements since the (19)60s. The wave of student activism in the (19)60s generated important reforms. We would not have had ethnic studies. I was involved in the first wave of protests that created black studies, now African-American studies, which gave rise to Chicano studies, Asian-American studies, Native American studies, and then women's studies. But alpha (19)60s activism, we would not have any of that, so that is been important. Another area that came out of (19)60s activism was a greater commitment toward interdisciplinary studies. We have made significant progress, but we still have a long way to go. In a university, the disciplinary nomination of the curriculum still remains the fundamental reality, and I still think we need to make major progress. I am not an objective observer, I have been a player in this realm for my entire academic career. I am contemptuous of the traditional academic disciplinary structure, I am fond of telling my students that I have plenty of discipline, but no discipline.
SM (00:29:28):
One of the things when you are talking about the curriculum is liberal arts. Seems that liberal arts really was strong in the (19)60s, particularly mid-60s and beyond, because it really was the epitome of what Mario Savio was saying at the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, that the universities need to be about ideas.
PVB (00:29:51):
And we need-
SM (00:29:52):
Ideas and not about corporate control or preparing people for jobs like the IBM mentality.
PVB (00:30:03):
Mario was absolutely right. He was a wonderfully, thoughtful and eloquent person, and his view on the university I think was extraordinarily perceptive, and I absolutely agree with them. I think we need a much greater commitment to the liberal arts tradition. The idea of transforming the university into a practical job preparation institution is a profound mistake because the jobs that we are preparing them of young men and women for today will be obsolete in a generation. The most practical thing that we can do is to give them the most rigorous liberal arts education combined with the traditional skills of critical thinking, writing, public speaking, and the like.
SM (00:30:57):
Do you think that is certainly a positive that came out of the boomer generation and the professors and students of that era?
SM (00:31:03):
...boomer generation and the professors and students of that era. I fear that liberal arts is really being threatened today.
PVB (00:31:10):
It is, and partly it is a lot of the boomer parents who have, I am sorry to say, very minimal vision about the fundamental value of a liberal arts tradition. They keep pushing their students, not their students, their sons and daughters into practical things. Learn about computers, learn about engineering, learn about accounting. And I can understand the parental need to do that, but it is short-sighted and mistaken.
SM (00:31:47):
Yeah. How often have you heard, in your time at UCLA, and I have heard it wherever I have worked is, "What are you going to do with a philosophy degree?"
PVB (00:31:57):
I hear it thousands of times.
SM (00:31:59):
Yeah. There is still people that just do not get it, the importance of... My golly, if you read Bertrand Russell, oh my god, there is things in there that you will remember the rest of your life.
PVB (00:32:10):
Absolutely. And it is something that is, in fact, perfectly practical, that if you unite what you are going to do day in and day out with a deeper philosophical vision, one, you will do your work better, and two, your life will be infinitely more meaningful.
SM (00:32:31):
Just a little commentary here on comparing the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s to the students of the (19)80s, (19)90s, and even the (20)10s today. I know it is very difficult, you cannot talk about... the boomer generation is 74 million and only a percentage went to college, so you cannot just be talking about college students here, but we are talking about young people overall. But you have been in the classroom and you have seen the students of all these eras. There is smart kids in every generation, so it is not about smarts. But I guess the areas that I am most interested in is activism, overall knowledge of what is going on in the world, students that challenge their professors more, that like to interact with professors in the classroom, and being up-to-date with the news.
PVB (00:33:22):
They are not, they are not. I have immense popularity with my students. I have done extraordinarily well. I have won every conceivable teaching award you can win, but I am very blunt when I tell my students that, in the aggregate I have a lot of really good students, who are extraordinarily critical and extremely knowledgeable, but in the aggregate, my students are not particularly knowledgeable. And even more insidiously, not particularly intellectually curious. They do not know what is going on in the world. They can tell you all about Lindsay Lohan and Lady Gaga and they cannot tell you what the hell is happening two days ago in Uganda, and that is not good for democracy.
SM (00:34:07):
I agree, I agree. A typical college scene in the (19)60s, and again, it does not always have to be technology changes, but at Binghamton University, I can remember people buying the newspaper, The New York Times, The Binghamton Press. They were-
PVB (00:34:23):
Nobody reads the newspaper.
SM (00:34:24):
...reading the newspapers. They subscribe to Time and Newsweek. They were reading them. And I know now we have the computer and they can get access on the computer. The question is, are they going to CNN? Are they going to the news or are they going to see Lindsay Lohan?
PVB (00:34:35):
Their protestation's that they read the news on the internet. I believe they think they are reading the news on the internet, and I believe what is actually happening is that they are glancing at the headlines on the internet. That technology... and look, I use the computer every single day, I could not live without it, but it is not a substitute for in-depth reading. You cannot follow the news by itself on the internet, unless you are ready to devote a huge amount of time, and that is not what they are doing on the internet. They are doing Facebook, they are doing email, they are doing whatever it is that they are doing, but they are not reading the news in a thoroughly systematic way. There are exceptions, but not many.
SM (00:35:31):
You were-
PVB (00:35:32):
[inaudible] out of 100 of my students, if that, reads the newspaper in a sustained way.
SM (00:35:39):
I am going to go back here to the Free Speech Movement again, you were there for the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. Would it ever have-
PVB (00:35:47):
Beginning to the end.
SM (00:35:48):
Would it ever have happened if they gave in and allowed the group to hand out the political literature?
PVB (00:35:55):
No.
SM (00:35:55):
Would the Free Speech Movement ever really have happened?
PVB (00:35:57):
No. They would have aborted it. And the University of California at Berkeley administration was colossally inept. Did you ever see the documentary Berkeley in the (19)60s?
SM (00:36:12):
Yes-yes. Yes, I have it. I own it.
PVB (00:36:17):
Yeah. I am no great fan of Professor John Searle, but he said in there the administration blew it again. They were colossally inept. Every time they could have aborted what happened, they did not. They just committed another atrocity. And so, they made it absolutely easy for us to do what we did. And I was involved in every single demonstration of the FSM.
SM (00:36:50):
Hmm. Clark Kerr is interesting, because when I went to graduate school, we had to read his book Uses of the University.
PVB (00:36:56):
I bought it.
SM (00:36:57):
Yeah. Oh, you did?
PVB (00:36:58):
I did.
SM (00:36:59):
Yeah, well I loved the book and when I interviewed Bettina Aptheker when she was on sabbatical in New York this winter, she just really did not like Clark Kerr, but then later on she somehow met him and she said she liked him. But Clark Kerr's interesting, because he is the man that talked about the knowledge factory and that higher ed was heading to the knowledge factory and more people had access to education than ever before. And my question is this, Clark Kerr said in the book The Uses of the University that higher education had become a knowledge factory where students were learning skills to prepare for the world of work. Students at that time had an issue with a factory mentality, like they did with IBM mentality, where they were asked to conform if they wanted a job. Your thoughts on issues like this, just that boomers forced and challenged the universities that were heading toward the research universities of today. I know there is a lot here, but he seems to be a very important figure in higher education and even though-
PVB (00:38:11):
It has been years since I talked to Bettina, I am much more critical about Clark Kerr. I find him the architect of an institutional setting that I find repressive and extraordinarily unfortunate. I do not want the knowledge factory. I want a university that really generates truly liberal education, that allows people the kind of critical thought that will allow them to find their own way, and not one that will have them adapt to the demands advanced capitalist society. I really think that Clark Kerr is the architect of everything that is wrong with higher education.
SM (00:38:50):
What is interesting about Clark Kerr is he got fired by Ronald Reagan during the time-
PVB (00:38:54):
I know it.
SM (00:38:58):
...that ...Because Ronald Reagan wanted to fight the students.
PVB (00:38:58):
No, I know. And I remember when he got fired, I was still a student at Berkeley then, before I started teaching, and I remember... I will never forget Mario Savio's kind of cryptic comment when he was interviewed on television when he was asked to comment about the recent firing of Clark Kerr, he said kind of off-the-cuff, "Good riddance to bad rubbish." Now, that is harsh, but I understand it, and at the emotional level, I agree with it.
SM (00:39:33):
Obviously, you knew Mario and Bettina and-
PVB (00:39:38):
Not well.
SM (00:39:39):
Not well. And I know David Lance Goines, who I have interviewed, too, was part of that. And he never came back to the university he was so upset.
PVB (00:39:46):
No, I know it, and I have read his book. I have read his book on the FSM. Again, I have met him but do not know him well. I knew some of the other people much better. The kind of official... it is a shame, I do not know if you ever interviewed Michael Rossman.
SM (00:40:05):
No.
PVB (00:40:05):
He died. But Michael was kind of the official archivist. He died about two years ago of leukemia.
SM (00:40:12):
Right.
PVB (00:40:13):
He was the one I knew the best.
SM (00:40:18):
The one that was in the car was Weinberg?
PVB (00:40:20):
Jack Weinberg.
SM (00:40:21):
Yeah. I would love to interview him, but you were there on that plaza that day, were not you?
PVB (00:40:27):
I was.
SM (00:40:30):
Can you describe what that day was like? I mean-
PVB (00:40:33):
It was wonderful. It was exhilarating. We had, I believe, a collective sense of our student power. We had a sense that we were challenging authority and that, indeed, we could win. When we stopped that police car from taking Jack Weinberg to jail, we had a sense of our extraordinary power. Now, I would add something. A very large number of the people who were there, myself included, had been veterans of the Civil Rights Movement. We knew that we could do that. We had had plenty of experiences. Jack Weinberg was a good example. We had been in the South. We knew the enormity of the impact of collective power. And we were not at all intimidated by the university. I mean, my god, we had challenged a racist southern church. We were not afraid of university deans. But it was an extraordinary day. I was there the whole time, and it was 30 some hours that Jack Weinberg was in there. I was there virtually the entire time. I think the only time I was not there was when I went into the student union to use the restroom.
SM (00:41:56):
Yeah, because the wide angle pictures that you see of that scene are thousands of students. I mean, and then you had this car in the middle that is not even being hurt. It is not even being scratched.
PVB (00:42:12):
People took their shoes off. Let me tell you, the only reason-
SM (00:42:12):
Let me turn my tape here. Hold on. All right. We are ready.
PVB (00:42:22):
I am an effective speaker. I have been a public speaker for 40 years, the sole reason I did not mount the police car to speak, was that I was on probation for an earlier civil rights arrest and I was operating in violation of my own probation order. If I had been photographed on top of that police car, and if that had gotten back to my probation officer, and the judge would sentence me to three years on probation, there is no doubt that he would have rescinded my probation and issued a warrant for my arrest, thrown me into jail.
SM (00:43:03):
I know, but when I interviewed Bettina, she said that was the time that she had never spoken before a large group like that before, but she said it gave her a lot of confidence. And she was not up there very long, but it just gave her a lot of confidence, and look she has gone on to become a great professor, so-
PVB (00:43:21):
No, it is true. I finally did speak the day of the mass arrests on the steps of Sproul Hall when were mobilizing for the strike. I got up and I took the microphone and I said, "We need to deploy students in front of this building and that building." And, to my astonishment, I spoke charismatically and people, they basically obeyed my suggestion, and I realized, at that moment, that I had the power to move people through my oratorical ability.
SM (00:43:56):
Wow, that is powerful. I know that Dr. Cohen at NYU has written a book on Mario Savio. I bought it when I was there, the day I interviewed Bettina, and I want to interview him, too. He is very busy.
PVB (00:44:10):
He is worth interviewing. I have read the book. It is very good.
SM (00:44:13):
Well, he never responded and finally he said, "Steve, I apologize. I have been inundated," three months after I sent my note. He said, "In the fall, when school starts, you can come in September and interview me," so I am going to do that. Final question on this, again, I may have asked this before, but what are the lessons, again, of the Free Speech Movement in your view? And what are some of the visible results of this action that you see on campuses today? In other words, what I want to know, I know how important it was, our students may not know the history of the free speech movement and how important it is for their rights on campus, but do you see the visible results at UCLA today and in other schools?
PVB (00:44:52):
A little bit. As a kind of indirect consequence of the Free Speech Movement, we were, as I indicated a few moments ago, able to make some curricular changes. If it had not been for the Free Speech Movement, we would not have an African-American studies and I would not be teaching African-American studies. But when I gave my own speech against the tuition hike, back in November at a mass rally on the UCLA campus, I said that when Mario Savio spoke on December 2nd, 1964 he said that there comes a time when the machine becomes so odious that you cannot take part. And I said, with today's prices at the university, it has become so odious, you cannot take part. And so, what I am hoping is that, especially with the repeated budget cuts and the organization of the university, that enough students will begin seeing that this is no education at all. So I am hopeful that there will be an increased student movement. I have no idea what is going to happen, but I would hope that with all of these kinds of cutbacks in education you will have a response from the student body at UCLA, the University of California and a number of places across the country.
SM (00:46:17):
There are some people, and I cannot name them, but I have read that they think that it is actually a conspiracy to keep students busy today by the fact that they all have to work, tuitions are rising, they have to work, they have no time to be involved in anything else on a regular basis. They join-
PVB (00:46:45):
It is a major problem.
SM (00:46:45):
...fraternities and sororities, so I do not get it.
PVB (00:46:45):
Yeah, it is a major problem. On the other hand, when my students moan and groan about that, I simply ask them and I say, "How much time do you waste on the computer? How much time do you waste on social networking sites?" I spent 30, 40, 50 hours a week as an undergraduate in the Civil Rights Movement. I also worked 15 to 20 hours a week, and in the last two years of my college career, I got mostly As. A lot of their complaints... I feel sorry for working class kids that really do have to do it, but for upper-middle class kids, who are getting parental subsidies, a lot of that is merely whining.
SM (00:47:28):
And there is data to prove that those students who are more involved in activities outside the classroom do better in school. They really do.
PVB (00:47:40):
The more I was involved in the Civil Rights Movement, the more hours I put in, the higher my grades got.
SM (00:47:44):
You are a living example of that. One of the things I was reading about, and you probably are very proud about it, in fact Paul mentioned in a little note to me, is that you are a rabble-rousing teacher.
PVB (00:48:00):
I put on a very lively show.
SM (00:48:00):
And what was it like being a teacher? Now, this is very important, and I have an example. What was it like being a teacher at Berkeley in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s and even going onto UCLA? And did you fear the university would purge you and other teachers for political activities beyond the classroom?
PVB (00:48:19):
Yes, I did, and they tried and I beat them back.
SM (00:48:20):
Hmm.
PVB (00:48:25):
I was first fired in... or attempted to be fired four years into my Berkeley career in 1972. It was a massive student movement. It became a matter of major Berkeley controversy, it became a matter of national controversy. I think it was 1972, the journalist Nicholas von Hoffman wrote a column about me. I beat him back, I beat him. And several other times when they... They have always used other pretexts, budget, change of direction.
SM (00:49:05):
Oh, yeah.
PVB (00:49:06):
Mind you, it has always been political and I have always beat them back.
SM (00:49:12):
Yeah, it is amazing the people that shut up are the ones that rise oftentimes. When I was at SUNY Binghamton in 1960... I think it was (19)68, a brand-new PhD came in from Berkeley, it was a sociology professor named Dr. Mahovsky, and I remember Mr. Lipschitz, one of the students in our class challenging him. There was going to be a protest against recruiters on campus, and he came into the classroom, the student, and he said, "Are you going to come with us?" And Dr. Mahovsky said, "No, I am teaching a class." And he said, "Well, jeez, did not you just graduate from Berkeley? You should be coming over. You are a professor. You should be coming over with us and sitting in the administration building. And we are going to get arrested, but..." And I will never forget this, he said, " I am no longer at Berkeley, I am no longer just a graduate student, I now am a professor, I have a wife, I have a child, I have to provide for them, I am not going to get involved in this." So I will never forget that.
PVB (00:50:17):
I have managed to get involved for 40 years and I am still around and in next March I will have been married for 40 years. In L.A. you get to be in the Guinness Book of Records for that.
SM (00:50:27):
Wow, that probably is. What do you think of Reagan's war on students, that law and order mentality?
PVB (00:50:35):
That is how he got to be governor. He ran against me and my fellow students and Berkeley in 1966. That is what catapulted him to Sacramento, and then that is what catapulted him, unfortunately, into The White House. Now, people who say if it were not for the Free Speech Movement he would not have gotten there, I am not apologizing for anything. We had to do the FSM. The fact that Reagan was able to be a demagogue and to do that is a sad reality, but I did not make it happen, so I have no regrets about being involved as an activist. If he had not done it, somebody else would have.
SM (00:51:18):
I think Ronald Reagan heard about Ed Meese at that time, because he was the assistant DA of-
PVB (00:51:23):
I remember Ed Meese. I used to watch him when I was a young faculty member. He was Ronald Reagan's kind of field general. It was Ed Meese who was directing the kind of ground operations on the Berkeley campus. It was Ed Meese who directed... he was involved in the activity of the People's Park.
SM (00:51:47):
Yes, in (19)69. Yes.
PVB (00:51:49):
And it was Meese who directed the helicopters that made the first bombing of an American campus.
SM (00:51:56):
I interviewed him.
PVB (00:51:56):
Of teargas.
SM (00:51:57):
I interviewed Mr. Meese. I had a chance to talk to him, it was mainly I wanted to talk to him about the years before he worked for President Reagan in The White House.
PVB (00:52:10):
He was the prosecutor of the Free Speech Movement defendants.
SM (00:52:14):
Mm-hmm. Were you aware of any universities firing professors or purging so-called radical students from their campuses or any campuses in the late (19)60s and (19)70s?
PVB (00:52:23):
They were doing it, they are still doing it.
SM (00:52:23):
Because I know that, my first job was at Ohio University and they supposedly purged a lot of the students from the east off of that campus.
PVB (00:52:37):
I mean, they do not do it with quite the drama, but you have these events. I mean, you have these academic freedom cases every year. At Colorado, they got rid of Ward Churchill. I am no great fan, I must say, of Ward Churchill. I have signed all the petitions, because I think it was a pretty egregious violation of his academic freedom. I am not a great fan of the scholarship, but that notwithstanding, clearly, he was a victim of political persecution. At Bard College, President Botstein has fired Joel Kovel.
SM (00:53:16):
Oh, yeah. I remember hearing about that.
PVB (00:53:21):
And I think that is troublesome. I do not know all the details of that case, so I mean this kind of thing goes on and on and, as I said, when I have been the victim of that, I fought back. I mean, I have been fortunate that the nature of my teaching is such that I am always able to generate a huge amount of support from my student population, including, I might add, conservative students. I make clear my own leftist point of view, but my conservative students can speak any time they want and I will listen to them. I will not agree with them, but they are always open to say whatever they want in my classes.
SM (00:54:04):
Well, access to higher education is a major development in higher education during the (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, the boomer generation, like the GI Bill and the World War II generation really increased the numbers on college campuses never before. With access, including all ethnic groups, what new issues arose in your view, what were they in your eyes?
PVB (00:54:32):
Well, [inaudible] students, I mean, they were obviously... I mean, I think this is a good thing, but I would like to make higher education more accessible to larger numbers of people. One of the good things until there was a backlash for things like Proposition 209 is that we had increasing numbers of people of color, and they were obviously interested in learning more about their own tradition. Increasing numbers, especially in a place like California, for example, you had an increasing number of students of Latino cultures, and so that was good, it was a valuable thing for the curriculum. On the other hand, you still had a lot of students much more narrowly focused on job markets and more technical skills that would equip them for entry level jobs, and I think that that was short-sighted, as I talked about a couple minutes ago.
SM (00:55:32):
Being a lawyer, how important was the Bakke decision? I know that was at UC Davis and that was in the late (19)70s. That seemed to be an historic case.
PVB (00:55:44):
Well, it is interesting. I mean, in retrospect, I mean, nobody really liked the Bakke decision when it came down, but in retrospect, we would kind of like to have it now, because at least it will allow the use of race. It allowed Allan Bakke to go to medical school, I think at Davis.
SM (00:56:02):
Mm-hmm, yes.
PVB (00:56:04):
But now, I mean, it is hard to get to anybody. It has been a long time since I read the Bakke decision, but as I remember, the court said you have to let Allan Bakke in, but you can still use race as a legitimate consideration in making admission determination. So if we could go back to the Bakke decision, we would ironically be better off.
SM (00:56:29):
A lot of people did not realize it, and it was not really brought up, but he was a Vietnam veteran, too.
PVB (00:56:35):
I know it.
SM (00:56:36):
And the other thing, too, is what we also saw that is interesting in college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, is the many Vietnam veterans coming on campuses and the discrimination that they were facing. In fact, they were actually put into affirmative action plans back at that time.
PVB (00:56:53):
Yeah, I remember that. At Berkeley, we had a few. I did not have a lot of Vietnam vets at Berkeley. And even now at UCLA I get a couple of veterans. It is not a huge percentage. In California, I would think that a much larger number of the military veterans probably go to the California State University system.
SM (00:57:20):
Right. Would you say, and this is just my perception that another big issue from the (19)60s and (19)70s, as a result of student protests and certainly with what happened at Kent State is the issue of who can and cannot come on campus with respect to police. That was a big issue when I was at Ohio State University as a grad student. And we had legal aspects in higher education classes and these were some of the biggest discussions we ever had, is who can and cannot come on campus.
PVB (00:57:55):
It remains an issue. Kind of piggybacking on what I talked about earlier, they are very-very careful about bringing large scale police presences on campus these days, because it inflames students. They try to defuse incidents, but we have had them. I mean, even last November when we had the demonstration against the tuition increases, they brought in a huge contingent of California Highway Patrol. And then, it inflamed student population, so they... There is no doubt at a public university campus, I mean, they have the right to come to campus. The issue is not whether they have the legal right, but the propriety and the wisdom of bringing them on.
SM (00:58:53):
I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and I know David Horowitz has also said this in his books, that the troublemakers of the (19)60s and the (19)70s now run today's universities. And then, they comment they run the women's studies departments, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Native American studies, Chicano studies, environmental studies. Your response?
PVB (00:59:17):
I think that is moronic. There is a need for all of these studies. These are whole areas that were historically neglected. David Horowitz is his own... In both cases, you really have to look at the sources. Phyllis Schlafly is an old-time reactionary, and extraordinarily difficult to take her seriously. David Horowitz is another interesting guy. I do not want to psychoanalyze him, but the temptation to do so is almost irresistible, coming as he does as a red diaper baby, who is trying to, basically, exorcise the ghost of his left-wing past. But on the merits, he is wrong. On the substantive merits, he is absolutely wrong. When you look at things like African-American studies and Chicano studies and you look over the past 35 or 40 years, there is an impressive body of scholarship and teaching that stands extraordinarily well on its merits. Now, it is absolutely the case that in the ethnic studies and women's studies curriculum, they are going to point out the existence of racism and sexism, because they exist. And that people who spend their time in scholarly investigation looking at race are going to discover racism, and those people who spend their scholarly lives dealing with gender, are going to discover sexism as an institutional component of American life. Mr. Horowitz does not want to acknowledge that, but that is his intellectual deficiency.
SM (01:01:17):
See, I interviewed Michelle Easton from the Clare Boothe Luce Institute, a conservative female, and she kind of agrees with that, as well. And she says, in some of these courses, women's studies, that they are never going to teach about Phyllis Schlafly, they are never going to teach about Clare Boothe Luce, they are never going to talk about conservative women. I made a comment earlier, they are doing exactly the same things that they complained about when they were students back in the (19)60s or (19)70s or whatever, so-
PVB (01:01:52):
I do not think they are. I think it is perfectly appropriate to teach about Clare Booth Luce, she was an important journalist, she was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk- She was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk about people who made a significant contribution, that would by definition eliminate Phyllis Schlafly, she is not an important figure.
SM (01:02:14):
Some people will say she is, because she single-handedly defeated the ERA.
PVB (01:02:19):
Yeah, I know. But, in the scheme of American and [inaudible] important figure. These are intellectual judgements we have.
SM (01:02:28):
Right. The problems we have just, I got a lot of questions here and you are doing great, because you are one of the first, along with Dr. Chickering and one other person, really talking about higher ed, which is important, because it is such an important part of the lives of Boomers and in that period. The problems that we have in America today, go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s. I say this, because in 1994, if you remember when Newt Gingrich came into power, he made some commentaries about that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s as to the reasons why America's in the shape it is in and he was referring to negative shape.
PVB (01:03:10):
Of course.
SM (01:03:10):
George Will, oftentimes lights to in his commentaries, take jabs back to that period. Even today, and I do not even watch Fox News, but I hear that former Governor Huckabee is constantly making comments, as is Glenn Beck and Hannity about general commentaries about that particular era in history and how it is negatively affected our society and still does today.
PVB (01:03:37):
There is absolutely no doubt that the (19)60s was a cultural and political and emotional divide. George Will is a thoughtful, intelligent guy. I disagree with virtually everything he says, although I like his writings on baseball. Very political. Glenn Beck is a comedian and is not worth talking about, because he is not a serious intellectual. Gingrich is an interesting, problematic person in his own right. He is not stupid. Beck is just an entertainer and he is real. We do make intellectual judgements, but let me talk about the deeper issue. The (19)60s was a profound divide. It changed our consciousness of America. There were a lot of people who wanted America to be what it was before then a Baskin for white middle class people with a deeply institutionalized sexism and racism. That was the America that they liked. That was the America that gave them the privileges that they enjoyed. And that was the America that we took on. That was the America that they enjoyed with Dwight Eisenhower. But the Eisenhower administration favored the wealthy. It was contemptuous of racial discord and it was contemptuous of the rights of women. And the (19)60s challenged all of that and I believe properly so.
SM (01:05:12):
Excellent response. When you look at the boomer generation, it is anywhere between 74 and 78 million people. In fact, I just read an article that boomers can no longer say they are the largest generation in American history. There are now more millennials than there ever were boomers.
PVB (01:05:32):
Yes. That is not surprising.
SM (01:05:35):
And because boomers, the most would be 78 million, we are already over 80 million for the millennials. But what I am getting at here is when you look at this boomer generation and you think of the boomers that you knew in many different capacities, and when I say boomers, I do not like to, some people have had some difficulty with the timeframes here, because I know from all the people I have interviewed that those that were born between 1940 and 1946, a lot of them feel they are boomers in the way they think and the way they act. You are dividing me from somebody else who is only two years younger than me. Come on. So I know what I am asking really is what do you think were some of the good qualities and bad qualities about the generation? Some people will not even answer this question, because I think it is too general.
PVB (01:06:31):
I mean, a lot of the people, I mean, I am right before the technical beginning of the boomers and a lot of the people came right after really were fundamentally part of (19)60s activist generation and for all of the flaws, and there were many, and for all of the kind of shrillness and the irrationality, it still made a major moral difference. It was people like that who were the foot soldiers in the most making the major moral transformation of our society, which was the civil rights movement. It was people of that generation, people of my age, people born right before (19)46 and right after, who were the foot soldiers who took to the street and who supplied the bodies in the most important moral crusade of the 20th century, the American Civil Rights Movement. So for that minority of that generation, without being chronologically precise, that minority of that age group performed a service for which America ought to be grateful for centuries to come. My view.
SM (01:07:47):
Could you list some of the contributions in your eyes at the boomer generations, its members? In society as a whole, both good and bad?
PVB (01:07:55):
Yeah, it is that minority that had a vision of morality and social justice that carried forth. It is that vision that has allowed people of color to live in this country with assemblance of humanity and dignity and which among other things, shortly after the highlight of that, that helped to end a grotesque war in Southeast Asia. The wrong side of the boomers, and again, without being chronologically rigid, is that many of those people fell all too easily into Reaganism, which may seems to be the worst example with the Reagan administration. It institutionalized selfishness, [inaudible], if I can point a word, where it said that, what is in it for me and to hell with everybody else. So the other side of that generation seemed to me to institutionalize a vision that all we care about is our own advancement, usually financial advancement and the hell with the welfare of the rest of the American population, really the hell with the rest of the human population. So it had the best and the worst.
SM (01:09:27):
That is kind of the Christopher-
PVB (01:09:27):
The latter is more than the former.
SM (01:09:32):
That is kind of that Christopher Lash talks about in the culture of narcissism. Yeah. I see there is a Bruin Alumni Association that is not an affiliate one that has a web page-
PVB (01:09:43):
No, it has nothing to do with the Alumni Association.
SM (01:09:45):
It talks about dangerous professors on campus.
PVB (01:09:45):
Yes.
SM (01:09:51):
And you are on that list.
PVB (01:09:52):
I am only on number 21. When that came out, I went to my students and I said that I regret profoundly that I did so poorly in the rankings. I had several months to see if I could elevate.
SM (01:10:06):
That is kind of the what a lot of people said when they were on Nixon's enemies list.
PVB (01:10:10):
Yes.
SM (01:10:13):
Some people said, "Wow, geez, I am hurt, because I am not on it."
PVB (01:10:16):
Right. The day that came out, I was teaching a very large class. I got a standing ovation.
SM (01:10:24):
Do you compare this at all, even in a small way, to the witch hunts by [inaudible] in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and looking at communists, McCarthyism in the (19)50s, attacks on the new left liberals, the Hollywood 10. Do you see even in the small way, a continuation-
PVB (01:10:50):
Yes, but in a very small way. Strictly minor league SD.
SM (01:10:56):
Right.
PVB (01:10:57):
Major league stuff. Strictly Bush League.
SM (01:11:01):
The new right really came to power in kind of the mid to late (19)70s in reaction to the new left and liberal groups active in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the rise of Reagan was part of that, because the concepts of law and order, he did not want a welfare state. The kind of mentality where you lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and do not concentrate on the government.
PVB (01:11:27):
...yourself up by your bootstraps and also predisposes that you have boots.
SM (01:11:31):
Right. Good point. What are your thoughts on that rise of the right?
PVB (01:11:38):
I see that as a consequence of the cult. I see that as a consequence of Reaganism. For all of Ronald Reagan's crack pot economics, the more pernicious dimension of the Reagan era was the cultural consequence of selfishness, of narcissism, of this kind of contemptuous disregard of the marginalized population. It was Ronald Reagan, for example, who opened up the mental institution in California. It was Ronald Reagan who basically maligned for my view of any society is that the, well, the moral quality of any society is the way in which you treat the most disadvantaged. And the way America treats its most disadvantaged, it remains appalling to me.
SM (01:12:31):
Well, I know religious leaders became a very important part of this, whether it be Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or Dobson. But when you see a Ralph Reed who has a PhD in history, who is so smart, I mean there were a lot of boomers who were part of this.
PVB (01:12:53):
I am sure. And they could always find people who can use the gospel. I mean, look, I am not religious. I mean, I come from a secular Jewish background, so I have no particular vision about the Christians whom I admire are people like Dr. King.
SM (01:13:16):
Right.
PVB (01:13:17):
For whom theology works for the betterment of the human condition and for people like Robertson and Buck [inaudible] and Reed, frankly, it strikes me that they are using theology as a cover for retrograde [inaudible]
SM (01:13:37):
Two religious leaders that seen, even though Billy Graham seems to be across a lot of currents and so does Father Sheen, the Catholic Church, they seem to be a little different, would not you say?
PVB (01:13:51):
Well, you mean Fulton Sheen?
SM (01:13:53):
Fulton Sheen, yes.
PVB (01:13:54):
Yeah. That goes back to the (19)50s.
SM (01:13:57):
Right. That is still part of boomers. When they were young, they saw these and-
PVB (01:14:00):
No, I used to watch them on television. I do not remember very much. He used to give these [inaudible] on television as a kid. I do not remember them specifically. Billy Graham has been around forever. I am no great fan of Billy Graham. I do not find him as reactionary as some of the other ones. But on the other hand, his palling around with all president will strike me is a bit of hollow.
SM (01:14:29):
Except Jimmy Carter for some reason.
PVB (01:14:31):
Yeah, no, I mean, but they share the born again vision. So there is not...
SM (01:14:39):
From your own life experiences and your knowledge of history through reading, describe what the following time periods mean to you. Since all these periods were at times when boomers have been alive and helped shape them and their multiple views on life. I have asked this to the last 50 some people that I have interviewed, and it has been very interesting what they say. This is just, when you look at this timeframe, what does this timeframe mean to you as a person, and what do you think it means to the generation that was growing up at the time and the period, 1946 to 1960?
PVB (01:15:18):
I found the, well that is basically 1946 to 1960, is the (19)50s, and I found that repressive. I have very vivid recollection. I remember the witch hunts. I was talking to my students yesterday. I teach at the summer course and I am using George Clooney's goodnight and good luck about Edward [inaudible], whom nobody had ever heard of until I mentioned. And I remember the Army McCarthy hearings, I remember the malevolent gaze of Joe McCarthy and his detestable sidekick, Roy Cohen. I remember the less than pleasant days of the Eisenhower administration. So I have very negative feelings about the (19)50s. I actually wrote an article many, many years ago about the (19)50s called Not So Happy Days, the Politics and Culture of the (19)50s. So I have very negative views, because it seemed to me that it was not happy if you were African American or poor or a woman, a variety of other people on the periphery of society.
SM (01:16:28):
What did you think of the TV of the (19)50s? Because when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody. I think of the Musketeers, Mickey Mouse Club. I think of Walt Disney, Ed Sullivan Show, a lot of comedy sitcoms, half hour shows, a lot of-
PVB (01:16:48):
I remember Westerns. I grew up in a very politically conscious and very politically critical family. So I was imbued with that. The only thing that I liked on television in the (19)50s was sports, baseball, football.
SM (01:17:04):
How about the period 1961 to 1970?
PVB (01:17:08):
I love the (19)50s and I am critical of its excesses, and I am critical of those people who said that they were involved in the (19)60s when they were young, and now they have matured and become mature. I think that is nonsensical. I am an unapologetic defender of (19)60s activism is pretty heard so far. Now, I think the (19)60s were one of the moral highlights of a relatively recent American history, especially the civil rights struggle, and especially the proceed to end what I think to be a monstrous war in Vietnam.
SM (01:17:50):
The period 1971 to 1980.
PVB (01:17:53):
Well, there was still a lot of activism in the early part of the (19)70s, and I supported that. I knew many of the people as the civil rights movement, for example, transformed from the kind of nonviolent civil rights movement to Black power. I understand that. And I was actually very supportive of the Black Power Movement. I retained a lot of associates and friendships with people who were involved in Black power, and I think that was very important. And in the early part of the decade, the anti-war movement accelerated. The war of Vietnam did not end until Gerald Ford withdrew American forces in 1975. So the first part of that was still part of the (19)60s. The latter part coincided with a much more passive era. Even though Jimmy Carter was president, it was moving toward the kind of passivity and narcissism of the Reagan era. My vision of the latter part of the Sotheby's becomes much more critical.
SM (01:18:59):
Yeah. Let me go right into that, 1981 to 1990.
PVB (01:19:03):
Not a particularly pleasant time. I mean, that was the era of Reagan, and that was the time where Reagan used his sometimes a very persuasive to communication power to malign and disparage. Before that was when he was utterly indifferent, for example, to people with aids. Not a pleasant time in our national history. And I am confident that few historians who validate my vision.
SM (01:19:37):
How about 1991 to 2000?
PVB (01:19:39):
And I think it continued. I am not, I mean on some levels things got a little better with Bill Clinton, but I am no Clinton fan.
SM (01:19:52):
Is there anything that stands out in that (19)90s that...
PVB (01:19:55):
No. I think on some levels, domestically things got a little better, but Clinton really continued the same irrational Cold War policies that actually were initiated under Eisenhower. I did not like his foreign policy adventures. I did not actually, this has to be apart from a lot of my colleagues on the left. I did not like his personal immorality.
SM (01:20:22):
And the one thing, he seemed to be very close to African-Americans, though.
PVB (01:20:30):
That is the popular view. I dissent when people said that he was the first Black president. His actual policies seems to me worked against the interest of the African-American population. I think he was particularly good with his rhetoric, but there is an enormous gap between his rhetoric and the day-to-day policies.
SM (01:20:53):
Where is this gap?
PVB (01:20:55):
No, I am not a Bill Clinton fan. I do not like what he stands for. I think that basically the Clinton influence in American life is a negative one. And I am in the minority on the left on this.
SM (01:21:10):
Where was that gap you mentioned? You can give an example of the gap?
PVB (01:21:13):
Yeah. He cut welfare payments, which I would not do, but I am unambiguously in favor of Democratic socialism still.
SM (01:21:25):
How about if-
PVB (01:21:25):
I was in Washington DC, I had about a 10-minute conversation with Ralph Nader, whom I like enormously. He would be worth interviewing, if you can get to him.
SM (01:21:39):
He is a tough man. He is never around.
PVB (01:21:39):
I know.
SM (01:21:41):
The last one of course is 2001 to 2010.
PVB (01:21:45):
Well, we will see. We will see. I mean, the Bush arm was grotesque. I mean, the worst president, arguably one of the worst presidents in our national history.
SM (01:22:02):
Let me change my tape here. Hold on. Very good.
PVB (01:22:09):
An absolutely horrible president, a horrible administration. A disaster will take generations to recover from his grotesque adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
SM (01:22:23):
What about Barack Obama? Just your first-
PVB (01:22:25):
See, I am increasingly disappointed with Obama.
SM (01:22:32):
So the judgment is out on him. It is too early, so to speak.
PVB (01:22:37):
It is still too early, but I am not happy with the trajectory. I would like him to be much more vigorous. A lot of people in the left, feel that way. I am hardly unusual.
SM (01:22:47):
Would you say that if you talk about this 10 years between 2001, 2010, it is all about 911? It is terrorism? That is the-
PVB (01:22:55):
Yeah, I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, 911 was horrible. No humane human being can say anything other than that. It was horrible. I mean, Al-Qaeda and their operatives are mass murderers. Nobody could defend that, indefensible. And if somebody were to capture and kill Bin Laden, I would be perfectly ecstatic. But look at what has happened. There was this kind of hysteria about terrorism that can have catastrophic consequences for civil liberties. I mean, in the wake of 911, we passed this grotesque Patriot Act. Horrifying, in my view, as a civil libertarian.
SM (01:23:41):
Did you experience the generation gap in your family between your parents and yourself or any of your brothers and sisters? Was there any-
PVB (01:23:52):
Not really.
SM (01:23:52):
Did you witness the generation gap amongst any of your peers and their family?
PVB (01:23:56):
Not especially. I am the oldest of five. There is a 19-year difference between me and my youngest sister. We are all politically progressive, although I have always been the most active, and maybe that is the first child syndrome. I have always been the most verbal.
SM (01:24:15):
Did you see that there was the generation gap between the World War II generation and the boomers?
PVB (01:24:21):
Yeah, I respect the World War II generation, but I do not romanticize them. I think [inaudible] broke laws rhetoric about the greatest generation is overblown.
SM (01:24:35):
Some people have also said that we concentrate too much on the generation gap and the battles between parents and children. But we do not talk about the generation gap within the generation, which is between those who went to Vietnam or served in the military during this timeframe and those who evaded the draft.
PVB (01:24:57):
Yeah, there was that. And I regard myself as a Vietnam vet. I fought the war. I would not have served in Vietnam. I think it was a grotesque score. I got a high draft number. So I was lucky I would not have fought that war. It was monstrous. Whenever I go to the Vietnam wall in Washington, and I certainly empathize with the people who lost relatives, and it is very touching and very moving to see that. But it is a horrible war. I would not demonize people who went and I would not spit on them or call them baby killer. But we should not have fought that war. We should not have fought in Iraq and should pull out of Afghanistan.
SM (01:25:43):
James Fallows-
PVB (01:25:44):
Very much, I mean, my views, they are minority views. Not North Vietnam, but certainly with Afghanistan. But large numbers of Americans feel the same way that I do.
SM (01:25:57):
Yeah. James Fallows has written years back, the writer for Atlantic Monthly, that he was in Harvard at the time, that he feels real guilty and has been honest about evading the draft and not protesting the draft, because a lot of those students evaded the draft, but put no effort into protesting against the war. And so there is some lot of issues there. So do you see any different-
PVB (01:26:24):
I have no such issues. I would not have fought in that warrant. I protested it.
SM (01:26:28):
Were your thoughts on those who went to Canada?
PVB (01:26:31):
I understand it. I would not have done that. I am an American. I belong here. I was born here. I have lived here. I am critical of my country. Therefore, I want to work assiduously to try to change it.
SM (01:26:48):
Yeah. I think Dr. King used to always say that if you need to not worry about being arrested when you protest, because that is part of the game, and those people, that is the nonviolent protest.
PVB (01:27:02):
Right.
SM (01:27:02):
And he always stressed that. And so those who did alternative service and did not go to Canada and some went to jail, like David Harris.
PVB (01:27:12):
Exactly.
SM (01:27:13):
And served time. Those people seemed to be admired more. Those who did alternative service and went to jail and then those who evaded the draft or went to Canada.
PVB (01:27:24):
Or who, I mean, I am in a different category. I fought the war in Vietnam from the time of the Gulf of [inaudible] in summer of 1954 until the final withdrawal in 1975. I was always outspoken against the war, 11 years.
SM (01:27:46):
Well then you are part of that then. In your opinion, what is the major event or happening that shaped the entire generation of 74 million? Is there one event that you think shaped it more than any other?
PVB (01:28:00):
There is too many. I do not think historically you can name one. I mean, obviously young people today in college, they all remember 911. But look, I remember, everybody remembers where they were when Kennedy was assassinated. But that could be overblown. It is too simplistic. It is really a complex of events that give rise of the ones individual events can help you locate a conscious, but it is individual psychology and human history are more complex.
SM (01:28:40):
We are is a follow-up. Maybe you will have the same answer. When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end?
PVB (01:28:47):
The (19)60s began, I do a course in this and I date it on December 1st 1955 when Rosa Parks got arrested, or you could date it on May 17th 1954 when the Supreme Court handed down Brown v Board of Education. And it ended largely when President Ford withdrew the troops in Vietnam. So somewhere in the mid-(19)50s to the mid-(19)70s.
SM (01:29:18):
Wow. April 30th 1975.
PVB (01:29:20):
Yep. So around then.
SM (01:29:22):
Do you think this-
PVB (01:29:25):
Basically 20 years.
SM (01:29:26):
This may be a repeat of the earlier question, but was there a watershed moment or you just cannot say?
PVB (01:29:31):
I cannot really say. There were too many events and I was involved in too many of them.
SM (01:29:38):
Do you think a quality that this generation has is a quality that they do not trust?
PVB (01:29:46):
Hard to know. I mean, one of the things that I am sad to say it that I see among my own students is a reluctance to take risks. And I am bothered by that. Even at the interpersonal level. I see too many young people, some of who are kind of reluctant to do anything that would be risky. They are afraid of the consequences. And I sometimes looked and said, my god's going to be afraid to do it at 21. What the hell are you going to be like at 40?
SM (01:30:22):
Right. Do you feel that the issue of trust is an issue within the boomer generation that has a lack of trust in leaders? Because so many lied to the boomers as they were growing up, and they were given lies in terms of why we got involved in Vietnam. We had the Watergate-
PVB (01:30:42):
They say that. I hear that a lot. I wonder however, whether there is so much of that is just a rhetorical cover. I am not sure how deep that really goes. I mean, every generation gets lied to. Political leaders always lied, endemic of the operations.
SM (01:31:10):
Would in response... I do a follow-up to this question. That is, when you think of a lack of trust, you really think of liberty and the definition of liberty. That was a political science major and well and history major. And one of the first thing things you learn in political science is that trust and lack of trust is a very positive quality in a democracy, because that means you do not trust your government, keeps them on their toes. And the dissent is alive and well in a democracy. Do you agree with that?
PVB (01:31:38):
No, that is good. I mean, one ought to be skeptical. But one ought to be skeptical when people say they are doing it for your own good. And you should say, show me that it is for my own good. Explain that further. Now I have, as a teacher, my job is to try to tell my students or urge them to be a lot more skeptical of authority wherever they encounter it. At home, at school, at both at the micro and macro level politically. Democracy requires skepticism.
SM (01:32:19):
Where were you when you heard President Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember the exact moment?
PVB (01:32:25):
Yeah, I was an undergraduate. I was just kind of walking and somebody said, they said like many other people, I did not believe it, until actually until everybody started buzzing about it.
SM (01:32:39):
Were you at the Berkeley campus?
PVB (01:32:40):
No, I was in San Diego. I went as an undergraduate at San Diego State.
SM (01:32:46):
So you heard of it just walking across campus?
PVB (01:32:48):
I was on campus. It was between classes.
SM (01:32:51):
And did you go to-
PVB (01:32:55):
I remember sitting down with a friend, we were kind of joking about something, having nothing to do with that. And some professor-
PVB (01:33:03):
...about something having nothing to do with that. And some professor came and started ... gave us a really dirty look. And I could not figure out why the hell was he this off with us, but I had not heard anything. We were outside. We had no, people were not wired up. And [inaudible] 63.
SM (01:33:18):
Did you?
PVB (01:33:23):
I think he was pissed off that we were joking, but we did not know anything. I would not joke about something like that.
SM (01:33:29):
Did your class continue or was it canceled?
PVB (01:33:33):
I think it was canceled.
SM (01:33:35):
And were you like many that just watched TV all weekend or?
PVB (01:33:40):
Yeah, I watched it. I watched it all the way through. I watched it incessantly. I watched Oswald being assassinated by Jack Ruby.
SM (01:33:46):
Yep. And you probably remember the announcers.
PVB (01:33:51):
Yep.
SM (01:33:52):
Tom Petit.
PVB (01:33:54):
Yep.
SM (01:33:54):
And Ike Pappas.
PVB (01:33:56):
Yep.
SM (01:33:58):
They have both passed on now. But those are the ones, NBC and CBS.
PVB (01:34:03):
It was incredible.
SM (01:34:04):
Yeah. Another important question here. Do you mind if we go over a couple minutes here? Because we are going over? Sure. Because I got, I have got the civil rights questions here. But this is a question I have asked everyone, all 170 people, a question that our students came up with when we took a trip to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s to see Senator Edmund Muskie. We had a leadership on the road program through Gaylord Nelson from Wisconsin, and we set up about nine meetings with senators, and this was our last one. And he was not very well. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And the question the students came up with, because they knew that he was the vice president of candidate in 1968 when all that terrible thing happened there and all those tragedies, assassinations that year. So they wanted to know, number one, were we close to a, they wanted to ask him, were we close to a second civil war in 1968 due to all the divisions? And secondly, do you feel that because of all the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and against the war, those who supported the troops or against the troops, and they brought in all the burnings of the cities in the (19)60s, and Watts and the burnings after Dr. King died and the assassinations. Do you think that this generation, because of all these terrible things, is going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And so they wanted a response from him, I will tell you his response after I hear yours.
PVB (01:35:44):
No, we were never close to a civil war. The Civil War was really a major division about states’ rights and slavery. We were in a period of great turmoil and tension, but nothing qualitatively similar civil war. But many of the tensions remain unresolved. I mean, I still think that many of the tensions that existed forty-something years ago remain. We still have racism, we still have sexism. I am extremely close to the African-American community, and I know definitively that they still see racism very pervasively in American society, notwithstanding that Barack Obama is black. And a lot of these tensions are going to remain unresolved. And a lot of people, especially the generation before me, are going to die with a lot of unresolved issues. And I am not sure that they will be resolved in my own lifetime. But it is not a civil war, and it never was, was not even close.
SM (01:36:54):
Do you think that there is a problem with healing within any segment of the boomer generation or as a whole?
PVB (01:37:08):
Yeah, but it is not... I mean, time heals. Time itself works. I mean, it has an effect though, on the rougher edges, but I am not sure. I do not want a cheap healing and I do not want closure, and I do not want healing unless there is resolution and resolution in certain directions. I do not want healing without... I do not want to heal unless the underlying issues are resolved. I do not want to heal if there is still racism or there is still sexism or homophobia. I do not want to play kumbaya if we still have these problems. I would rather have tension and discord.
SM (01:37:57):
That is an excellent response because Senator Muskie did not even respond about 1968. He mentioned nothing in his reply. It was simple and direct. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War because we have not healed over the issue of race." And then he went on to describe the North and the South and all the divisions, and that is all he said. And he did not even mention... and he had just seen the Civil War series on TV in the hospital, the Ken Burns series, and he said, "Ask yourself this, young people. Almost 430, 000 people, men, died in that war. Almost an entire generation was wiped out in the south." So ask yourself, the issue of race. He said that... he actually had tears in his eyes when he was talking to us. He had said nothing about the (19)60s. So that is how he responded. What has the wall done, in your opinion? Have you been there? You already said you have. What was the first response to the black granite wall about a mile in? What came to mind when you first saw it [inaudible]
PVB (01:39:03):
Oh, I have seen it a dozen times. It is tremendously moving. What makes it such a remarkable piece of public art is that it allows people of both sides, the protagonists who fought in Vietnam and people who fought against the entire war like me, to stand in the same space and to share their... well, not to share, but to experience their own private emotion. I mean, the people who lost people, you can see them rub the names. But people like me stand there and I see the 58,000 and odd names of people, and I think what a tragic, tragic waste.
SM (01:39:46):
See, I think maybe I should have rephrased the question. I have said this to other people when I talked about healing, is really... has the healing truly happened between those who went to war in Vietnam and those who were the anti-war movement?
PVB (01:40:00):
Probably not. But I think the edges are off as we have gotten older. But I really think that the issue, I agree with Senator Muskie, the issue of race is a deeper divide. When Dr. Dubois in 1903 wrote that race is the defining issue of the 20th century, it remains so.
SM (01:40:24):
I know Jan Scruggs, the founder of the Wall, wrote that book To Heal a Nation, which you probably read because he wanted to heal the veterans. And I know it has done a great job for the veterans and their families, which was...
PVB (01:40:36):
It is very important for them.
SM (01:40:37):
But they still have a lot of healing to do. You just see when you go to the wall.
PVB (01:40:39):
There is no doubt.
SM (01:40:41):
But he wanted to heal the nation. So I do not know if that that is going to be possible by...
PVB (01:40:46):
It is not going to be possible. I think the edge is off, but it is not going to heal. Life does not work that way. And I do not know that healing is in the way in which that is expresses ability [inaudible] desirable.
SM (01:41:03):
You are a scholar and you have obviously not only written great books, but you have read great books. What are the books that most influenced you as a scholar, as a thinker? People that have written books that you may have read in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, or even through today that are truly inspirational?
PVB (01:41:29):
I have read so much, and I mean, I think about that, but I have... at this juncture of my life, I have read so much. I mean, there are books that are profoundly influential. I just got done teaching Camus' The Plague, which is to me tremendously influential, it is a novel of resistance. And if there is any word that I would summarize what I have tried to do with my, not just my adult life, but with my life in general, it is resistance. It is to resist what is wrong, to resist illegitimate authority. And Camus' novel is a novel of resistance, and I have taken that to heart. I read that as a young undergraduate and I have taught it for 35 years. And I keep changing my reading list, I have been doing that for 42 years. That is the really the only major exception. It has been a constant.
SM (01:42:32):
Well, that is good. Because you-
PVB (01:42:33):
I never tire of it.
SM (01:42:35):
Hey, you are changing it around. You are not doing the same thing every year. That is good.
PVB (01:42:38):
No, I change it all the time, but not that, I weave that in somewhere kind of once a year and I never tire of it. And the students never tire of it.
SM (01:42:47):
Two books that I really liked when I was in grad school, and again, I had interviewed Daniel Bell, so he is 92 years old, I was lucky to get an hour with him. But Bell, I mentioned these two books, The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.
PVB (01:43:03):
I used to kind of informally debate Roszak.
SM (01:43:07):
Yeah well that was, well, I tried to get him to be interviewed, but he was not well, he is not well now, so.
PVB (01:43:13):
He has got to be in his seventies.
SM (01:43:15):
Yeah, he is retired and I do not know if he is fighting cancer. I do not know what it is, but I just know he is not well, and he said he did not have the energy to talk for a half hour on the phone. And the other one was Charles Reich's The Greening of America. I do not know if you know it.
PVB (01:43:31):
Oh, that was all part of the whole counter culture.
SM (01:43:33):
Right.
PVB (01:43:34):
Yeah, I remember all that. That was big at a particular moment.
SM (01:43:39):
And Erickson wrote some great books too. And Kenneth Keniston and yeah.
PVB (01:43:44):
Exactly. What is Charlie Reich doing these days, is he still around?
SM (01:43:48):
My understanding is he is like disappeared. He left, I guess he left Yale a long time ago. Lives in the Bay Area. I guess he is, hibernating. I do not know. He is just like doing nothing. I guess he is retired and I do not know what he is doing.
PVB (01:44:03):
Yeah, he would be in his seventies as well.
SM (01:44:05):
Yeah. Now this is the area that I think you will have the greatest enjoyment in responding, because actually what is interesting, you do not know anything about me, but African American history and issues dealing with African Americans is the center core of my life as well. You are a senior lecturer of African-American studies at UCLA, and you understand the history and the culture of the civil rights and civil liberties. Could you comment on these African-American leaders that were important during the lives of Boomers? And I got a list here, you may have others, but these can just be brief comments on people. My advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, who was my graduate school advisor at Ohio State. And you can go on the web, see Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, he has a big practice in just outside Washington DC. But he was a great inspiration and he brought us into prisons and got us involved in issues dealing with African Americans. It is just like, and I have been reading ever since, and Dr. King is my hero, and in many respects. First person to respond, just a few comments on Malcolm X.
PVB (01:45:18):
I am an enormous admirer of Malcolm X, especially near the end of his life, that remarkable transformation when he moved from a more narrow based Islamic identity with the nation of Islam into a much more, much broader vision of humankind. I think his assassination in 1965 was a horrible tragedy. I liked his vision of universal human brotherhood and black militancy, which he was able to fuse tremendously.
SM (01:45:53):
But do you believe that when he has had that slogan by any means necessary, did he mean violence?
PVB (01:45:59):
If necessary, I have no problem, I am not a pacifist, so I think that appropriately conceived the violent response can be legitimate. Nelson Mandela realized that during the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa, when with some reluctance, he decided that they had no choice except to move to the armed struggle.
SM (01:46:20):
I know Malcolm had a big debate with Bayard Rustin on that.
PVB (01:46:25):
I am an admirer of Bayard Rustin, but I am not a pacifist. Bayard Rustin was. He was an official, the fellowship of reconciliation.
SM (01:46:34):
And he is from Westchester, right where I live.
PVB (01:46:37):
Yeah. Now he is a very important figure. My students have never heard of him.
SM (01:46:42):
Dr. King and Mrs. King. I want to include both of them.
PVB (01:46:45):
Yeah. They were tremendous. I mean, arguably Martin Luther King is one of the great human beings of the millennium. I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, and certainly America's greatest orator, and Coretta another extraordinary human being, no doubt. I mean, unbelievably powerful. I was there when he spoke at the march on Washington and I-
SM (01:47:13):
Wow, you were there?
PVB (01:47:15):
So I was there. It was when we were in Washington for the spring quarter. My wife and I walked there and I showed exactly where I sat when he gave the speech.
SM (01:47:26):
Wow.
PVB (01:47:27):
I am a tremendous admirer of him. I have [inaudible], his letter from the Birmingham Mail was one of the great militant civil rights document ever. His pilgrimage, that nonviolence is important, and I disagree with it. I prefer Malcolm's view on the necessity of violence, although I prefer to avoid it.
SM (01:47:54):
How about John Lewis?
PVB (01:47:56):
One of the great men, I mean, and he is still at it as a congressman in Georgia, wonderfully eloquent. He just gave a speech the other day when he looked in Congress in the house, when he said he was speaking to the Republicans, do not you people have a heart? There are people out there who need their unemployment insurance. Wonderful man.
SM (01:48:20):
He spoke at Kent State, and I was there recently, and I interviewed him for my book. I brought him to Westchester when we did a tribute to Bayard Rustin as well. Julian Bond?
PVB (01:48:31):
I have known Julian. I was a SNCC worker when he was the office manager. Wonderful, wonderful man. Unbelievably eloquent as a speaker. I had the good, the privilege when he was our guest at UCLA. I interviewed and I introduced him at a big public speech. I have known Julian for 40-some years. Tremendous. I admire verbal eloquence, and he has it. And his writings are tremendous. He has done tremendous writings on all kinds of issues that go far beyond Rice alone.
SM (01:49:11):
He is also the voice at Kent State when people do the tour now.
PVB (01:49:15):
Oh, he is the greatest.
SM (01:49:16):
At Kent State site. James Farmer?
PVB (01:49:19):
James Farmer, the former head of CORE. I heard him a dozen times. He faded into historical obscurity. But should not, he was an unbelievably eloquent man. He was in a Louisiana jail. He was the only major civil rights speaker during the march on Washington.
SM (01:49:37):
Yes. We had him on the campus. A lot of these people I have met myself. A. Philip Randolph?
PVB (01:49:46):
One of the iconic figures. I have written at length about A. Philip Randolph, the major figure that merged the civil rights and the labor movements.
SM (01:49:59):
And I think more students need to know about him, because when I mention his name, people say who?
PVB (01:50:05):
I know.
SM (01:50:05):
Where have they been?
PVB (01:50:09):
I have a class, I have a history of social protest movement, and I had 330 and last four. And when I mention Randolph, I think two or three heard of him. That is typical.
SM (01:50:23):
How about Roy Wilkins?
PVB (01:50:25):
A very important figure, too moderate from my perspective, too wedded to the more legalistic tradition of the NAACP, but certainly very important. But during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, the NAACP was among the more conservative forces in the Civil rights movement. And Wilkins classically in that tradition, but certainly he devoted his whole life to the movement, and one has to give him huge credit for that.
SM (01:50:56):
Whitney Young?
PVB (01:50:58):
Even more so. He was the head of the Urban League, but he and Wilkins were on the conservative wing of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Whitney Young was a trained social worker and kind of therefore less given to the kind of confrontation on the street. I worked with SNCC, and SNCC was the youngest group, and I shared that to you. Still do. But I like free confrontation.
SM (01:51:30):
How about Ralph Bunch?
PVB (01:51:33):
Bunch is an iconic figure. I mean, I work in the Ralph Bunch Center for African American Studies. An extraordinary diplomat. One of the early PhD scholars, political scientists, and I know all about Ralph Bunch, he is an extraordinarily admirable figure.
SM (01:51:54):
Rabbi Hesburgh?
PVB (01:51:57):
You mean Theodore Hesburgh?
SM (01:51:58):
Theodore, yeah, Theodore Hesburgh.
PVB (01:52:00):
He was the president of Notre Dame.
SM (01:52:02):
No-no-no. I mean the Rabbi. I thought it was Hertz. I thought it was Rabbi Hertzel or the Rabbi that-
PVB (01:52:14):
Hertzel. No, Hertzel is the Zionist leader.
SM (01:52:16):
I got the wrong name, then.
PVB (01:52:18):
Rabbi [inaudible].
SM (01:52:21):
I thought it was Rabbi Heschel. I thought it was Rabbi.
PVB (01:52:24):
Oh, Rabbi. Oh yeah.
SM (01:52:25):
He was with Dr. King on many-
PVB (01:52:27):
Absolutely very important voice for Jewish voice of social activism and justice. Very, very important. Abraham Heschel.
SM (01:52:37):
Yes. That is my mistake. I apologize. Fannie Lou Hamer?
PVB (01:52:42):
One of the great figures, her leadership in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, and an orator and a singer, an iconic, iconic woman. I have been teaching her and about her forever.
SM (01:53:01):
How about Ella Baker?
PVB (01:53:03):
Another one. She was one of the, it was she who broke, she did not break from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, but she was one of the kind of originators of SNCC, very important figure. And again, representing the historical contributions of women in the Civil rights Movement. She needs to be much more well-known than she presently is.
SM (01:53:28):
The people that really were to the side of Dr. King at all times. You had Jesse Jackson. You had Ralph Abernathy.
PVB (01:53:38):
Absolutely.
SM (01:53:39):
And you had Andrew Young. Those three seemed to always be with him.
PVB (01:53:44):
They were always there. I mean, I met Ralph Abernathy. Dr. King sent Ralph Abernathy to our home during the Lebanon crisis.
SM (01:53:55):
Of course, I got Paul Robeson here, and I think you have already mentioned about-
PVB (01:53:59):
And I thought mean he really is the iconic figure long before the modern Civil Rights Movement. I only regret that contemporary African-American leaders do not pay homage to Robeson, John Lewis being a conspicuous exception.
SM (01:54:17):
When you think of the athletes of the period that boomers have been alive, like you think of Muhammad Ali.
PVB (01:54:26):
Ali is a wonderful guy and very political.
SM (01:54:30):
You think of Jackie Robinson, who certainly opened up the color line.
PVB (01:54:35):
No doubt. I mean, Jackie Robinson was a hero to everybody. He was certainly, in terms of his athletic prowess and his real commitment to civil rights, he was no Paul Robeson, of course.
SM (01:54:49):
Kurt Flood is someone who never is talked about, but I think he is very important.
PVB (01:54:54):
Absolutely. Broke the reserve clause.
SM (01:54:56):
Yeah, and you are the first person I even mentioned him. We seem to forget him, and I think people need to know more about him, about his life.
PVB (01:55:06):
I think.
SM (01:55:08):
Yeah, and certainly the Tommy Smith and John Carlos.
PVB (01:55:14):
That was the moral highlight of the modern Olympic movement, that moment in Mexico City. A wonderful moment. It drove a lot of Americans crazy. I thought it was terrific.
SM (01:55:27):
How about Dr. Harry Edwards, who was part of that?
PVB (01:55:34):
Well, I, Harry, I knew very well when we taught at Berkeley together. I think Harry played it incredibly.
SM (01:55:40):
He has also disappeared. You call the college and they do not have any forwarding address to him.
PVB (01:55:46):
I know, he is around though.
SM (01:55:49):
Do you know his website or?
PVB (01:55:51):
No, I do not, but I can get that for you. He was our speaker at the Bunch Center in May. Now, I always go to, we have an annual Thurgood Marshall lecture. The only reason I did not go was that I was teaching in Washington DC in the University of California, Washington Center.
SM (01:56:09):
Okay.
PVB (01:56:10):
Or otherwise I would have gotten together with Harry. [inaudible]
SM (01:56:12):
Good. If you have his email address, I would appreciate it. I brought him to Westchester quite a few years back, and then I have lost touch with him.
PVB (01:56:23):
When I go in tomorrow, I will try to get it. Email me tomorrow and I will try to forward that to you.
SM (01:56:28):
Super. How about the Black Panthers? And I say this specifically because you cannot just talk about them because of the unique personalities. I am going to mention the personalities and then your comments. Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge [inaudible] We will go with Stokely.
PVB (01:56:45):
He was terrific. I never knew him. I saw him occasionally, once or twice in the SNCC office. Very important, taken with himself to be sure, but did a marvelous job. And he was the bridge between the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Power Movement. And it was he who came up with, I think, was not it, he who came up with black power as a slogan?
SM (01:57:11):
I think so, yes. Yeah, Eldridge Cleaver.
PVB (01:57:16):
A tragic figure. I remember when he wrote Soul on Ice, and I actually did have a couple of conversations with Cleaver. I knew a number of the Panthers in Oakland when I taught at Berkeley. Cleaver became, I mean, a caricature of himself at the end.
SM (01:57:36):
I know he became a strong conservative at the end.
PVB (01:57:41):
He became a conservative. He became a Mormon. He became whatever he became.
SM (01:57:45):
He was living on the street too, I think.
PVB (01:57:47):
And he was viewed as an embarrassment in the black community.
SM (01:57:53):
Kathleen Cleaver.
PVB (01:57:55):
I talked with Kathleen a couple of years ago. She is teaching law at Emory and occasionally at Yale. She continues to do good work.
SM (01:58:04):
And of course, H. Rap Brown is in jail the rest of his life.
PVB (01:58:07):
He is in prison in Georgia. Another kind of tragic figure. I never knew him.
SM (01:58:14):
Fred Hampton.
PVB (01:58:15):
Well, I mean, that is one of the great martyrs of the infamous J. Edgar Hoover.
SM (01:58:23):
And then Huey Newton and Bobby Seal.
PVB (01:58:26):
Well, they were very important. My parents knew Huey. I never did, they are very important. Also, Bobby is still around. But he, last I heard, he was in Philly.
SM (01:58:40):
Oh, no. He is not in Philly anymore. He lives in California.
PVB (01:58:42):
Oh, he is back in California. Huey was a tragic figure, but very important at a particular moment in time.
SM (01:58:51):
And Angela Davis, who was not a Black Panther.
PVB (01:58:54):
No, but she, I think she is retired from Santa Cruz, but her writings are terrific. I gave a speech from the spiral steps at Berkeley when Ronald Reagan fired her from UCLA. and I was involved, and I signed a million petitions to free Angela, and I have spoken to her. I do not know her well, she is really [inaudible] born (19)43 or (19)44.
SM (01:59:20):
George Jackson was symbolic of all the prisoners.
PVB (01:59:23):
Oh, he was killed in San Quentin. And I mean, I followed that case.
SM (01:59:30):
How about Robert Moses, who was so important in SNCC?
PVB (01:59:34):
Tremendously important. Because you are almost saint like in what he did. He is still around teaching mathematics.
SM (01:59:39):
Yep. Thurgood Marshall?
PVB (01:59:43):
A judicial giant. Another Thurgood Marshall on the court.
SM (01:59:52):
One thing I always thought, when I thought of Malcolm, and I think of the Black Panthers, people are very critical of the direction because they challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin on nonviolent protest. But Dr. King challenged Thurgood Marshall because even though he liked Thurgood and was very proud of what he did in getting the Brown V Board of Education decision through the Supreme Court, that was a challenge because Dr. King used to say, I want it now. I do not, we are not going to wait any longer, and we are not going to have the gradualist approach of a Thurgood Marshall. So maybe this-
PVB (02:00:30):
No, but Thurgood Marshall also was not a gradualist. There was a wonderful love that... Marshall was a very, very fine lawyer, and that was the legal wing of the movement. And he was tremendously courageous in developing all the legals that culminated in the Brown decision.
SM (02:00:52):
James Meredith?
PVB (02:00:54):
Another interesting figure. I mean, it was very important for him to do all of that at the University of Mississippi. I do not know what finally happened to him. He must be in his (19)70s now.
SM (02:01:05):
He became a conservative too.
PVB (02:01:07):
Yeah. Well.
SM (02:01:08):
Nothing wrong with that, but just surprising.
PVB (02:01:11):
But he did mean it was important for him to challenge. I mean they precipitated those riots in Oxford.
SM (02:01:18):
Then of course, Medgar Evers?
PVB (02:01:23):
Oh, I think I had the same feeling when Evers was shot in the back that I had to the Kennedy assassination. That gives you a sense of my reaction to Medgar Evers.
SM (02:01:38):
Have you been to Arlington?
PVB (02:01:38):
Not, I was there for three months. I did not get to Arlington.
SM (02:01:45):
Medgar Edwards is buried there.
PVB (02:01:47):
Yeah, I know. Because he was a veteran.
SM (02:01:49):
Yeah, he is over in an area by himself near a tree as you would walk over to the Iwo Jima statue.
PVB (02:01:55):
Yeah. An extraordinary human being.
SM (02:01:57):
Emmett Till, that was a tragedy.
PVB (02:01:59):
Well, I mean, I remember that as a child. I mean, I talk about that and about the state against [inaudible], and that was an iconic moment. That was one of the catalysts in the Civil Rights Movement. That was one of the points of origin for the (19)60s.
SM (02:02:17):
And then of course, Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, which.
PVB (02:02:19):
Yeah, of course. And I was driving that way a couple of, the three, four weeks around, not on the same road, but the same general area for [inaudible]. And it dawned on me that what happened to them could have happened to me.
SM (02:02:35):
And just quick responses to these terms. You do not even, Freedom Summer, which was (19)64. There is a book on that.
PVB (02:02:42):
Yeah, no, I remember it. I was in the Civil Rights Movement, but not specifically a part of Mississippi Freedom Summer. Very-very important in the movement.
SM (02:02:50):
Of course, the March on Washington (19)63. But a lot of people forget that there was another one in 1957 that Dr. King was at, which was smaller.
PVB (02:02:58):
No, I know. I mean, tremendously important in the modern civil rights movement. I mean, anybody who was at Washington in August of(19) 63, that will be one of the highlights of their lives. It certainly is for me.
SM (02:03:13):
Orangeburg?
PVB (02:03:15):
Orangeburg, South Carolina?
SM (02:03:18):
That was where the killings were.
PVB (02:03:20):
Oh, yeah. No, I know about it, but vaguely, I do not know enough that at this juncture to comment on it.
SM (02:03:27):
Jack Bass wrote an article on it, a book on it. Selma and Montgomery.
PVB (02:03:32):
Those were tremendously important. I mean, Selma, it was Jim Clark, the [inaudible] racist Sheriff. And these were all very vital parts of the movement. And there were examples of racist violence against the nonviolent protestors of the movement.
SM (02:03:55):
And of course, Little Rock Nine.
PVB (02:03:57):
Oh, I mean that, it was the little rock crisis that got [inaudible].
PVB (02:04:02):
It was the Little Rock crisis that got Levittown out of the news because it was just a couple, it was just a month after the Levittown crisis. But that was another one of the precipitating events. And there you had the legal defiance of Wabufarbus.
SM (02:04:20):
Then you had the church bombing that killed the little girls, and I know that that in that inspired Angela Davis.
PVB (02:04:26):
Horrifying.
SM (02:04:29):
And then of course, I have here the trip to Mecca, which was Malcolm's important trip. What do you think would have happened if he had lived? Because of course you cannot, just so you can say the same thing about John Kennedy. Maybe we would not have gone into Vietnam, but guess-
PVB (02:04:44):
We can. No, I think Malcolm would have grown into a leader with the eloquent stature of Kin.
SM (02:04:55):
Your thoughts on the Black Panthers again, do you think they were a violent group?
PVB (02:05:01):
Oh, they were undercurrents of violence. I think they were in the aggregate, sincerely committed to Black liberation. You read their ten point platform, their statement of principles perfectly acceptable. I still would like to see them implemented. I have essentially positive thoughts about the Panthers. I do not want emphasize them, but I think in basically positively about the past.
SM (02:05:33):
There were other groups that went violent. We all know about SDS and the Weathermen. We all know that a lot of people thought the demise of SDS was because of the Weathermen, the violence.
PVB (02:05:49):
SDS finally spun out like a tornado. The Weathermen were lunatic. They were romantic revolutionaries in a society that was never a revolutionary society.
SM (02:05:58):
Well, even in the American Indian movement in 1969 when they took over Alcatraz.
PVB (02:06:03):
Alcatraz, I remember that as well.
SM (02:06:05):
Then that went to violence at Wounded Knee by 1973. That kind movement kind of was set back for a while.
PVB (02:06:14):
No, I mean, I am in favor of carefully constructed defense of violence. The violence for the sake of violence strikes me as falsely stupidness strategically put into effect.
SM (02:06:25):
Yeah. I think the Young Bloods, the Chicano Movement kind of foul the Black Panthers too in some of their events. Describe in your own words the connection of the arts to politics and society.
PVB (02:06:37):
Well, that is what I write about. I have become one of the, it is fair to say that I have become one of the major scholars on political art. I really believe that art plays an integral role in the overall struggle for social justice. And that is what I have been, and I have a lot of parts of my personality and my life, but I have been documenting political arts for 40 years.
SM (02:07:14):
Could you give some examples of that? In the (19)60s, the art and the connection to social issues.
PVB (02:07:23):
There were literally hundreds. I mean, there were Vietnam, there were artists against the war in Vietnam. People, even iconic figures like Ben Shahn and Jack Levin and George Segal, they all did artworks against the war. They used their considerable skill to say no, and this is ongoing, and this is what I do every day. And in recent years, I have been documenting African American artists who have been upfront in the struggle against racism.
SM (02:07:57):
Can you describe about photography and the importance of that?
PVB (02:08:01):
The importance of photographers in the United States, for example, have played a key role in highlighting social injustice from the time of Jacob Rees and Lewis Hein all the way through the thirties. But the Farm Security Administration like, Dorothea Lange, Walker Evans, Ben Shaw himself was a photographer. And especially Gordon Barks, the first African American to do that. So they all use their camera to say, look, America, this is what is really going on. And they continue to be the eye of hunt.
SM (02:08:41):
Would you say the Marian Anderson experience in Washington with Eleanor Roosevelt was a major happening in the area of civil rights in America?
PVB (02:08:52):
Without doubt, without doubt. I have talked about the 1939 concert for as long as I can remember. And when I was in Washington with a great deal of internal soul-searching, I finally walked into the DAR Museum. It took a lot of internal fortitude for me to finally go into that building.
SM (02:09:17):
Yeah, that took a lot of courage on the part of Mrs. Roosevelt, too.
PVB (02:09:21):
Tremendous.
SM (02:09:21):
She quit the organization.
PVB (02:09:23):
No, I know all about those events.
SM (02:09:27):
Well, since you are talking about The Yards, and we mentioned 1950s TV. I was born after World War II, but the thing that amazes me as a young boy, I saw Amos and Andy and was on TV and was on all the time, and it was funny. But now when you reflect upon it, that was about the only African Americans that were on TV in the (19)50s, except for Nat. King Cole who had a show in the mid-(19)50s for a short time.
PVB (02:09:57):
The Amos and Andy was the classic example of African American characters. I mentioned it to my students regularly. I mean, I have childhood memories of it.
SM (02:10:09):
And do you remember that period when Nat King Cole was on for a short time and then it was canceled and it was a great show? And then in the early (19)60s, what is amazing is, and I remember this clearly. There were four shows with African Americans, and I remember reading an article in a magazine saying, they are going to take over the television. And this is early (19)60s. Diane Carroll was in a TV show was a nurse, Flip Wilson had his show, and then Bill Cosby was in I Spy, and there was one other African American that was in another TV show, and the commentary was, they were going to take over television.
PVB (02:10:50):
Sure. Just like they are going to marry your sister.
SM (02:10:52):
Yeah. Are there any movies that you feel were the best movies for the Boomer generation today? On CNBC, they got what they consider the 50 top movies for the Boomer generation. I thought that was interesting. I was looking at, you can even go to it.
PVB (02:11:11):
I would have to look at it. There is so many.
SM (02:11:13):
When you think of the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s, are there any that stand out to you that really, if you saw it, you knew this was the era?
PVB (02:11:30):
Oh God, I would have to go back. Dealt with so many films. I do film courses. I woud really have to look at it. There is some really powerful works. I mean, I am about to show, I do not remember when it came out but I am about to show the Boomberg kind of anything by Costa Gavras was tremendous. I am about to show Missing. About students about Chile. And then certainly right in that period, because you have the American inspired overthrow of the Allende government in (19)73. There is so many. There is just a remarkable number of powerful films. But of course, most films are just entertainment.
SM (02:12:14):
Yeah. Well, I tell you, when I saw these films today, I can still see them knowing that that is when I was young. Like the Graduate and-
PVB (02:12:22):
Oh, I know. Everybody has saw that.
SM (02:12:23):
Easy Writer and Zabriskie Point.
PVB (02:12:27):
I remember that too.
SM (02:12:28):
Bob Carroll, Ted and Alice, which I think was a corny film.
PVB (02:12:32):
Yeah. Zabriskie Point was with Antonioni, I think.
SM (02:12:36):
Yeah, I know. Shaft was really a movie that.
PVB (02:12:40):
That was Gordon Parks.
SM (02:12:41):
Yeah, that was a very, the Cat, the movie Fritz the Cat, which was a controversial movie in the early (19)70s.
PVB (02:12:47):
I remember, but it was rated X.
SM (02:12:50):
And the Marlon Brando, The Last Tango in Paris. That was during the sexual freedom of sexuality kind of thing. And so there are many more. All right, let us see. I am getting down here. I am down to the last little section here, if you do not mind. These are just, you are still there.
PVB (02:13:13):
Yeah.
SM (02:13:14):
These are just quick responses. You do not have to go into any length on some of the personalities beyond the African-American personalities. Just quick responses to these names or terms. Tom Hayden.
PVB (02:13:25):
Oh, I have known Tom, not well. Another very important figure. He has been at it his whole life, both as an agitator and then later as a legislator.
SM (02:13:36):
Jane Fonda.
PVB (02:13:38):
Yeah. She did good work. Mean she broke up with Tom, but she was out there. A good example of a celebrity who is also political.
SM (02:13:51):
Attica.
PVB (02:13:53):
Well, that was extraordinarily important because it got America to understand what was going on in America's prisons.
SM (02:14:01):
And then what is really sad here today is a brand-new book out. You have probably seen it about Jim Crow in America Today. All you have to do is look at our prison system.
PVB (02:14:10):
That is exactly, because that is what it is.
SM (02:14:12):
Yep. San Quentin. I say that because that is where Angela Davis and George Jackson were.
PVB (02:14:19):
Yeah, no, I know it. I mean, I have been on demonstration assembly at that-
SM (02:14:25):
Alcatraz, which is the Indian takeover.
PVB (02:14:27):
Exactly. Another remnant of America's ridiculous prison history.
SM (02:14:33):
Robert Kennedy and John Kennedy.
PVB (02:14:36):
Well, they were martyrs of the (19)60s. I mean, I am not a particular fan of either, but they were martyred.
SM (02:14:47):
LBJ and Hubert Humphrey.
PVB (02:14:49):
Tragic figures. I mean, Johnson was very good domestically, but a failed president because of his growth test score in Vietnam. And Humphrey was just a wacky tragic figure. I did not vote in 1978 and I refused to vote for him, and I have no regret, no apology.
SM (02:15:08):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
PVB (02:15:11):
Well, they were both wonderful anti-war figures. I voted for McCarthy in the primary and McGovern in the General Election.
SM (02:15:21):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Wagner.
PVB (02:15:24):
Monstrous figures in American political life. Nixon horrible and Agnew, a caricature of himself. And I used the word advisedly. A fascist.
SM (02:15:41):
Yeah. Well, he made some pretty hob nobs and whatever called else.
PVB (02:15:43):
Negative makeup, whatever the hell it was.
SM (02:15:44):
Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger.
PVB (02:15:48):
Well, McNamara is a tragic figure. I mean, he later recanted. You see that the documentary about his work has been sad, but he still was one of the architects. Kissinger strikes me as a war criminal.
SM (02:16:04):
Ronald Reagan and George Bush the first.
PVB (02:16:10):
Both pernicious influences. Reagan even more so, especially because people liked him because of his genial personality. But I have to add that he is not universally loved. People say, oh, Ronald Reagan. That is not the case when you talk to people in the African-American community.
SM (02:16:31):
Or people in the gay and lesbian community.
PVB (02:16:33):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
SM (02:16:35):
In fact, I have interviewed some people that actually, one cried on the phone.
PVB (02:16:40):
Absolutely. Especially with his contemptuous indifference to the AIDS crisis.
SM (02:16:46):
One thing about George Bush the first, is the fact that he is the one that said the Vietnam syndrome is over. I think he will be remembered more for that than no more taxes. What did you think?
PVB (02:16:58):
He probably will. I mean, he will come out better because of the malevolence and stupidity of his son.
SM (02:17:05):
Yeah. How about Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter?
PVB (02:17:08):
Both mediocre presidents. I mean, Ford was well-meaning, so was Carter. Carter's actually wound up being a much better ex-president.
SM (02:17:20):
How about Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower? Harry Truman was the first president for Boomers. So-
PVB (02:17:26):
Yeah, it is true. I mean, in retrospect, they are both good. I mean, Eisenhower, in retrospect is a flaming liberal. And his last comment about the Military Industrial Right Flex is still very significant. By today's standards, bright Eisenhower would be a moderate Democrat.
SM (02:17:47):
What is interesting, if I was a fly on the wall, I would have liked to have been there before John Kennedy and Eisenhower got into that car on an Inauguration Day because it is my understanding that a lot of things that President Kennedy was asking was about Vietnam. And if Eisenhower had just made a mention, I think you need to get out, boy, would life have been different?
PVB (02:18:08):
Could have changed the course of our history.
SM (02:18:10):
Yeah. Again, Bill Clinton and George Bush II.
PVB (02:18:14):
Well, I have already told about.
SM (02:18:15):
And President Obama too.
PVB (02:18:18):
And I am not a fan of Clinton for reasons, but I have already-
SM (02:18:21):
How about the women leaders, which is the ones that stand out? Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug. So they are different personalities, but-
PVB (02:18:31):
No, they are very different personalities. I am a great fan of Bella. I think her history goes deeper because beyond being a feminist leader, she was one of the courageous lawyers who defended people who were called before the House on American Activities Committee. So Bella goes back a long time. But Betty Friedan and the other one is Steinem. Which one?
SM (02:18:56):
Gloria Steinem.
PVB (02:18:57):
Oh, Gloria Steinem. They are very-very important. I mean, they help the catalyze, the women's movement, and we are all better off because of feminism.
SM (02:19:05):
How about Anita Bryant?
PVB (02:19:08):
Better to be forgotten. As I have forgotten footnote at a moment in time.
SM (02:19:14):
George Wallace.
PVB (02:19:17):
George Wallace was just another demagogue and horrifying race. I saw him standing in the doorway to find a federal order.
SM (02:19:28):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
PVB (02:19:30):
Good man. I do not know about his pediatric work, but as a peace leader, wonderful man.
SM (02:19:38):
Daniel and Philip Berrigan?
PVB (02:19:41):
Very good. They represented, in my view, the best of the Catholic tradition.
SM (02:19:46):
Since we are talking about the Catholic Church, I had not mentioned this before, but Father Hesburgh was a real leader in that area.
PVB (02:19:52):
Absolutely.
SM (02:19:53):
Yeah. And he is the real deal. What? They cannot get another president like him at Notre Dame. He is like, oh, Mount Rushmore type person. Dr. Timothy Leary.
PVB (02:20:05):
Oh, strange guy. I used to have conversations with him in Berkeley. I am not big on drugs. That is where my friend Paul Krasner and I part company a little bit. I am very skeptical of the drug culture.
SM (02:20:20):
Well, so am I. And people cannot believe I went through SUNY Binghamton, which where everybody smoked pot and everything.
PVB (02:20:25):
Yeah.
SM (02:20:27):
I refused. I am never going to say I did not inhale because people were smoking in everywhere, But I never even took drugs. Ever.
PVB (02:20:37):
I have smoked pot a couple of occasion. I did not like it, particularly.
SM (02:20:42):
Your thoughts on the beats. Some people think the beats were very important in this anti-establishment mentality.
PVB (02:20:48):
They were the precursors to a lot of the activism of the (19)60s. As a literary movement, they are very important. People like Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti and others. I had a couple of conversations in Berkeley, with Allen Ginsberg same with Ferlinghetti and San Francisco. Very important. Ferlinghetti is still around.
SM (02:21:11):
Yeah, I know. He has that bookstore in San Francisco. And he like Ginsburg and Cassidy and Kirouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman, Snyder, and Leroy Jones.
PVB (02:21:21):
And he is still around? He is-
SM (02:21:23):
Yeah, he is Amiri Baraka. Yeah. But-
PVB (02:21:26):
I like him. I have talked to him. I have been on the same program with him. He [inaudible]. He can be a pain in the ass, but he is made very important contribution.
SM (02:21:37):
Well, he is not available for interviews. I know that. Just your thoughts on the whole concept of the Cold War.
PVB (02:21:43):
That was so [inaudible] That molded our whole childhood. I mean, I was a child of duck and cover, except I refused to duck and cover, and I was sent to the principal.
SM (02:21:56):
How about the Korean War? What role did that play in, if any?
PVB (02:22:00):
It was there. I was too young to remember it actively. I remember when it ended. I only have fleeting memories of it. I remember it, but not as vividly as perhaps I should have.
SM (02:22:16):
How about the young Americans for Freedom, which was the conservative group that-
PVB (02:22:20):
No-no-no. I always knew the offers. I thought they were ridiculous.
SM (02:22:24):
They started at William Buckley's home, and he is my next person. William Buckley and Barry Goldwater.
PVB (02:22:30):
Goldwater. Buckley is obviously intelligent and a decent representative of the conservative tradition. So I mean, worthy of intellectual debate, unlike an Ann Coulter. Goldwater, in retrospect also would find himself in the left wing of the Republican Party.
SM (02:22:54):
I find it ironic that he is the man along with Hugh Scott that went to tell Nixon to resign.
PVB (02:23:02):
I know it.
SM (02:23:04):
What an irony that is. And then the whole concept of communes.
PVB (02:23:12):
Well, I remember that. I mean, that was part of the counterculture. I mean, I certainly have no objection to people doing that. It is not compatible with my personality. I must go individualistic. I could never live in a commune.
SM (02:23:26):
How about the Woodward and Bernstein changing?
PVB (02:23:29):
They did good journalistic work, no doubt. I mean, they helped expose Watergate.
SM (02:23:35):
And Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.
PVB (02:23:38):
Very important at a moment that galvanized American knowledge of the underlying realities of Vietnam. So Goldberg, I am glad he did what he did, and I am glad that the Supreme Court allowed that to be published.
SM (02:23:54):
Tet-
PVB (02:23:56):
Who?
SM (02:23:57):
Tet And Vietnam.
PVB (02:24:01):
That was the comic guide that occurred in 1968. Turning point.
SM (02:24:06):
Yeah. That was the Gulf of Tonkin guide that ended the war and totally.
PVB (02:24:10):
And that was the turning point. And we ought to have realized that. And we ought to have gotten out, but we did not.
SM (02:24:16):
How about Hugh Hefner?
PVB (02:24:18):
Oh, Hefner. I mean, he hangs around LA in his pajamas and takes Viagra. He probably was important in breaking down some of the sexual repression. But what can I say? And he, he has done good work in the advance of the First Amendment. So that is a good thing. Playboy's a ridiculous magazine. And the Playboy clubs are horribly sexist.
SM (02:24:49):
Watergate.
PVB (02:24:51):
Oh, very important. Because it showed the pervasive criminality of Richard Nixon and his cronies.
SM (02:25:00):
And John Dean.
PVB (02:25:02):
John Dean has turned out to be quite a good guy. I mean, incredibly perceptive commentator. And he had the courage to come forward before the Irving Committee.
SM (02:25:14):
LSD.
PVB (02:25:17):
Overrated. I think it destroyed a lot of lives. If LSD can be used in a very controlled therapeutic way, fine. But I think that Leary and his colleagues unleashed hidden ways that had detrimental effects for thousands of people.
SM (02:25:40):
All right. The last question I have is, he, is the question of legacy. When the best history books are written, normally that is 50 years after an event, and I am going to paraphrase it. Say a hundred years from now and when the last Boomer has passed on. For people that have any memory of living at this time or have shared from people that are older about this time, what do you think the books are going to say about this generation that was born after World War II and some of the events that took place?
PVB (02:26:16):
I think that they are going to say that those members of that generation who reflected the activism of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, made significant contributions to America. If indeed we still have a world that has not been blown up or has not been so environmentally degraded that we still have a planet.
SM (02:26:42):
The Boomers right now, the oldest is heading towards 64 years of age, and oh, the youngest is heading towards 48.
PVB (02:26:50):
I know it.
SM (02:26:50):
And obviously, most people have said those people that were in the first 10 years are a lot different than those in the last.
PVB (02:26:57):
They are.
SM (02:26:57):
Second 10 years, but they are really approaching senior citizen status and I know that a lot of Boomers do not like that term, senior citizen. And so in a lot of buildings, they are getting rid of it. And I know AARP is considering not saying senior, because a lot of the Boomers do not like it. Your thoughts, we are talking about Boomers now that have about 20 to 25 more years of life if they have been taking care of themselves. What do you think they will do in old age?
PVB (02:27:27):
I do not know. I mean it is unique to the individual thing. I mean, I have no idea. There is so much over this genetic roulette. I think about that a lot at sixty-seven. I have no idea how long I am going to live. I run every day and I eat well, but I have no idea because my grandparents were all murdered in Auschwitz. So I do not know. Well, I know what I want to do. I want to keep working.
SM (02:27:53):
I know when we had Tim Penny on our campus, the former congressman from Minnesota, we had him at Westchester University when he rewrote a book called Common Sense in the (19)90s. I asked him to be interviewed, and he has gotten too big now. He did not want to be interviewed. But when he came to our campus, he said that the Boomers, which was his generation, have made a major mistake they had not saved. He said the average, when he was on the campus tonight, the average Boomer had about between five and $10,000 in savings in the bank.
PVB (02:28:33):
Yeah, that is going to be a problem. I read or I saw today on the Today Show that a very large number of them are going to outlive the resources. That is a major problem.
SM (02:28:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
PVB (02:28:44):
My generation, I do not know that I can generalize. And I probably can. I know that a lot of people whom I know are slightly older than the Boomers have been much more fiscally moved.
SM (02:29:00):
He said the reason why he left Congress was to try to make more money, because he had a lot of kids. He could not make it on 125 or whatever they made their foot, which is a pretty good salary back then.
PVB (02:29:12):
If I had ever made 125, I would have done just fine.
SM (02:29:15):
But he said, your comment on this, I will never forget it, and I wanted him to respond to this, but he said, the Boomers are going to be broken down into three areas. There is going to be one third that are going to be very well off, very rich, and they will be able to do anything they want to travel, no matter what happens. Then there is going to be one third that are going to live in poverty, total poverty. They will have nothing. And then there will be one third in the middle, that will be having a very hard time because they will just be getting by. They will be able to survive, but they will be just beginning by, so he said basically two thirds of this, 74 million.
PVB (02:30:00):
Really marginal.
SM (02:30:01):
Oh, yeah. And of course, what has happened to a lot of Boomers is the economy has destroyed many of their, no, I mean, it is beyond their control.
PVB (02:30:13):
No, I know it. And there is nothing they can do about it. It is not their fault.
SM (02:30:17):
It is almost as if now that Boomers have to continue to work, just like students in college have to continue to work. It is the same kind of thing. And some Boomers may be working until the day they die.
PVB (02:30:28):
I know it. I am the last generation to get through the fine pension.
SM (02:30:35):
Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
PVB (02:30:40):
No-no. I think we have covered a lot, but if you have any more, just give me a call. I am around.
SM (02:30:45):
Very good. Well, that is it.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Paul Von Blum
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Von Blum, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews
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Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-02-12
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
150:50