145 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a938abfe3835040b9164f6963622f9ca.mp3 a0b3d8c69f45b9f53b66efe174431bcc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Year of Graduation 1962 Biographical Text Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Medical school; Hematology; Civil rights; Anti-war Movement; Student life; Retirement activities Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Neal M. Friedberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 31 May 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Testing, okay, I think we are good. NF: 00:07 I Neil Friedberg, class of 1962 at Harpur College, consent to this interview with Irene Gashurov and agree that it be part of the public documents about the 1960s and Harpur College. IG: 00:31 Excellent. Thank you. So perhaps we can start with your identifying yourself when you graduated, and what you do? NF: 00:53 I am a retired physician. I grew up in New York City, in the Washington Heights area, and went to the Bronx High School of Science, and I think that is what led me to be accepted at Harpur College in 1958. It was a new school at the time in terms of its imminently new campus in Vestal New York. In the year that I entered, most of the classes were held in former military huts that had been left either on the Binghamton or Vestal campuses or in Johnson City. It was a preferred school for me at the time because it was a school that I could afford and at the time, New York state and the federal government were generous with scholarship and scholar incentive awards, which essentially allowed me to go to school for practical purposes free for the four years that I attended Harpur College. IG: 02:27 That is a good introduction. Very good introduction. So, you mentioned that you grew up in Washington Heights. Who were your parents? NF: 02:37 My parents were second generation Americans. I am an only child. My mother was born in 1914 my father in 1908 they--my mother worked part time when I was an adolescent, but not prior. And my father was a part of furrier working part time when the industry allowed him to work. Neither, neither of them finished high school, I may add. IG: 03:17 That is tremendous. I mean, given your achievement. But did they encourage what was the culture like at home? Did they encourage your education? NF: 03:30 The emphasis was always on bettering oneself through education. IG: 03:39 So, you were in Bronx High School of Science. Did you show a predisposition to the sciences over what did you want to study? NF: 03:51 I always believed that my mother whispered in my ear from the time I was four or five that I would be a doctor. There was some precedent in the family. With one of my cousins, there was no other person in the family who was a physician. I always enjoyed science, but I always also loved literature. And there was a debate in my Harpur education about whether I was going to switch into literature, but ultimately decided that medicine was probably a better profession, and one could like literature independent of. IG: 04:39 That is a very wise decision to make at such an early age. So, what was your first impression of you know, I mean, you are a city kid, and most of the students were from New York City and-and Long Island, but there must have been a few from upstate New York, and so what-what was your impression of the students? NF: 05:07 At the time that I entered Harpur, there were only two dormitories extant. One was Refuse Hall for the boys, and I forget the name of the girls. The ground floor of Refuse Hall where I boarded each room had two people, two boys, and it was interesting that most of the boys were not New York City boys, but rather upstate boys with a couple of Long Islanders and as a quote, unquote sophisticated New York city [phone rings] IG: 06:06 Okay, so we have resumed with our conversation with Neil Friedberg. NF: 06:17 So, as I said, most of the boys were from upstate New York, and boys being boys, we would often assemble in a room and shoot the breeze. And it was remarkable for me as this quote, sophisticated New Yorker, how intelligent and in their own way, sophisticated these other young men were. And it was an eye-opening experience that has stood me in good stead over the many years, where, in the field of medicine, you meet people from all walks of life and all sorts of interests that I could find a way and accommodate my own interests and conversations to their needs. IG: 07:28 So, what kind of things did you talk about? NF: 07:32 Well, I think it was the common things that boys talked about. Needless to say, we talked about girls, we talked about the classes that we were attending, and we talked about the society as a whole. And it was, it was not a particularly violent period of time, but it was a rather conservative period of time, and I, having come from a New York City Jewish background with a fairly liberal parent and family based would often argue with many of the guys who had much more conservative views of what the society should be and was like. IG: 08:39 So, you know, what was a society? What was your what was your vision of this society and what it should be? Was it about diversity? Was it about, you know, greater democracy, reaching? NF: 08:55 Well, this was, I think, the major issue at the time, I think was still civil rights right, and I had always, even at that time period, time of my life, thought it was outrageous that there was still such animosity. And difficulty for the what we call the black population at the time, or negro population at the time. In 1959 I began to date a young woman at the college who was a freshman who was much more radical than I was, and I think she awakened in me a much more active role in the civil rights movement. I not sure when it was. I think it was (19)60 or (19)61 when the Woolworth sit-ins began. And though we were not in the south, there was indeed a Woolworths in Binghamton, New York, at which we sat in at Woolworths. IG: 10:23 So, tell me what I have heard of sit ins, but not specific to Woolworths, because they-they, why-why were you sitting in? NF: 10:34 Woolworths would not allow Negroes, Blacks to sit at the counter in their stores, and the counters were the place where individuals would sit and have their sandwiches or coffee, etc. Those kinds of counters seem to have faded now to a great extent, though there are still some around. IG: 10:58 Right. So, what did that look like? I mean, a group of college kids would come in and where would you sit? NF: 11:09 We would, we would take the seats at the counter and that order. And that, of course, undermine the economics of Woolworth's. Not of course, for the day or so that we did it. It was not a major issue, but it was a measure of the support at the college level for what was going on nationally. IG: 11:34 And so, where were you sitting in which Woolworths in upstate New York or? IG: 11:41 In Binghamton. IG: 11:42 In Binghamton Woolworths, New York. Um, was- did the police come? NF: 11:47 Good question, I do not remember. IG: 11:49 You do not remember. So, you know you say radical. I am just interested radical girlfriend. How was her radicalness expressed? NF: 12:02 Well, mostly in thought. I mean, I do not think she, you know, was doing creating bombs or things of that sort, or robbing banks, right, you know, anything of that sort. So, I think it was a philosophical radicalism right at the time. IG: 12:29 So, what notions you know? I would like to probe a little [crosstalk] What ideas did she instill in you, or she exposed you to? NF: 12:48 Well, I do not recall that. I do not recall particulars. I think what she did was to extend my own quote liberalism, maybe into a more substantive vein. More than that, I cannot say. IG: 13:19 Maybe to enact your beliefs or? NF: 13:22 Well, in the sense that, in the sense that I would go to a sit in, which is probably something I would not have done as the only child of anxious parents. IG: 13:35 Yes. NF: 13:35 Right. And as time went on, got more involved in the anti-war movement and went to Washington to march in the anti-war marches, or Washington in the Civil War marches. IG: 13:53 Was this after Binghamton? NF: 13:55 Well, I do not remember exactly when they were. It must have been while it while I was at Binghamton, because there was not a lot of time to do that in medical school. IG: 14:06 Right-right. So, what was that like? You know, a bus- NF: 14:12 Yes, bus, right. IG: 14:13 Students [crosstalk] or drove up NF: 14:15 Several busses would drive down to Washington and spend, I presume, the weekend, marching on the mall. IG: 14:31 With-with many other people? NF: 14:34 Yes, both people from the school, as well as the innumerable other people who would show up IG: 14:42 And innumerable other people were people like Martin Luther King, or any leaders there that you recall? NF: 14:50 Well, I seem to remember a Philip Randolph, and there was somebody else. Um, I do not remember attending King's speeches, but I might have, I just do not recall. IG: 15:14 So, do you think that overall? Well, you know, in 1958 Harpur College was just earning its reputation. NF: 15:23 Right. IG: 15:24 Because these are just the beginnings. NF: 15:26 Right-right. IG: 15:27 But what kind of you know was it already sort of the rigorous liberal arts school that- NF: 15:37 The-the- okay, the-the education that I achieved at Bingham at Harpur was much more in the desire for knowledge than the actual high-powered knowledge that I might have gotten at a quote, unquote better school right at the time, the Biology Department was vastly understaffed and with professors who were, for the most part, out of date. I think the best department that I recall was the English department. In particular, I had a wonderful experience with a professor named Dr. Wald, Dr. Weld [John Weld], I am sorry, Weld, who was just a remarkable professor for teaching both the drama theater and poetry and literature, very exciting. And uh- IG: 16:55 Do you remember what you were reading? Was it- NF: 16:58 Oh well for- IG: 16:58 -temporary or was it- NF: 17:00 -well, for instance, the Shakespeare course that I took with him, or maybe it was only a theater course, but Shakespeare was one of the plays, and he was teaching King Lear at the time [crosstalk], and he would stand in front of the class and say, "Do you think I could be King Lear?" And he was about five, five or five, six, and scrawny. And then he would get up on the desk, climb on the desk, and, you know, act out King Lear. And it was just a way of exciting students. IG: 17:41 Was he an actor at some point? NF: 17:43 No idea, no idea. IG: 17:45 The theater department, until this day is remarkably strong. So, he made an impression. And this is this, is this why you were at one point leaning toward, NF: 18:02 Well, I think the department as a whole, well, let us go back. I mean, from the time I was a small kid, I was a voracious reader. I would get into bed when I was, you know, 12-year-old, and take a flashlight, cover my head with a quilt so my folks would not see I was awake, and read under the covers. And I did that throughout that period of time, so that I always liked literature. It was a way for the world to open up to me, over and above the community I had grown up in. And so, when the literature courses at Harpur were exciting, it was a reason to think about entering that field. IG: 18:51 Of course, of course. NF: 18:53 But I was, again, probably a little smarter than I should have been, because I thought I was going to be a physician at Bronx Science. I took Latin because I thought you had to have Latin as a physician. And the sentence structure of Latin is so formal and convoluted that when I would have to write papers for the English department. I recognized that I was not a writer. And I thought you have to be a writer if you are going to be in the English world, in the literature world. IG: 19:36 I mean these, well, I mean it is, it is, it is a good recognition at the at the time, not, you know, but, I mean, these are also skills that can be developed, you know, but you just did not have the inclination, you did not have the inclination that is amazing. So-so this was your Harpur experience. And, um, you mentioned, you know the faculty that made an impression, but you were determined to pursue your medical career. And so, did you apply to graduate school right after that? Or and did you get any advisement from your teachers? NF: 20:20 I did not really need much advice from the teachers. IG: 20:25 Right. NF: 20:25 It was pretty clear that I had the grades necessary to get into medical school. And again, the problem of finances arose, and at the time, there were probably three medical schools in the state that were state schools. There was downstate in Brooklyn, upstate in Syracuse, and Buffalo. IG: 20:50 And Buffalo. NF: 20:51 Right. And I certainly had no desire to go into what was thought to be a what sort of should I say, Alliance pit in Brooklyn, where- IG: 21:07 Really? NF: 21:07 -where it was said that some of the students would change the location of the pins in the guinea pig or animal that was being, you know, dissected so that the students who came behind them would get it wrong and they would look outstanding. IG: 21:28 That is a really good story. That is a really it was that competitive, NF: 21:33 Yes, right, right. Whereas Upstate was not terribly different from Binghamton, except one had to live in the cold and nastiness of Syracuse. IG: 21:45 of course. So, you went to Syracuse. You went to Syracuse. So, you know, did you have any idea about specializing, or did you NF: 21:57 Uh, okay. Good question, when we started to think about specializing after the first year, which were all the usual anatomy, physiology courses, I think I basically decided that I was going to go into hematology, because nobody understood anything about blood, and nobody, none of the other students cared about blood, and I thought it was a ubiquitous fluid, and it also served one of the things that I really had liked, and that was biochemistry. Most of the other disciplines depended upon physiology at the time right and hematology and endocrinology were those disciplines that had an underlying biochemical foundation. So just to pursue that. So, when elective time came, I took hematology, and I also worked one or two summers with a professor who was in the Department of Medicine, but was not a physician. He was a PhD, learning some techniques of electrophoresis, but also going out into the community of Canandaigua County, is that Syracuse, where they were testing and looking after some migrant laborers that would that was taking place at the time, so we would sample their blood and measure different vitamin levels, etc. IG: 24:18 Did you find that they- NF: 24:20 I were in- IG: 24:21 -any way deficient because- NF: 24:23 I was not around long enough to find the answers. IG: 24:30 So, you know, you spent this rigorous you did this rigorous degree, and you probably were very much immersed in your studies, and were you paying attention to- NF: 24:46 -the rest of the world? IG: 24:47 Yes. NF: 24:51 I have no question, right. And it was also true that--I need to go back actually. It was in 1964 which is after my second year of medical school. In this in the second year of medical school, my good friend said, you know, the government is giving out a lot of loans. You know, rather than working at the local hospital, which we were doing at the time, perhaps it would be a good idea to take some loans. And needless to say, that the loans were granted. And he said, as we got the loans, you know, we have all this money. Why do not we go to Europe? IG: 25:38 That is a great way of thinking. NF: 25:47 So, so we did that and ran our full heads off in the summer of (19)64 and that is where I met my wife. We met in the Athens airport. IG: 26:10 Is she American? NF: 26:13 Yes-yes, she was doing the same thing I was doing. And so, I was certainly extending myself beyond my medical interests, but Kennedy got shot in (19)63 and Robert a few years later, etc., and King got killed. It was hard to not be aware of the chaos in the society. IG: 26:53 So, did you see that? You know how? How was it visible to you that society was, in fact, changing from, you know, the more I mean this. These are general. NF: 27:08 Well, this was, this was a radical change. As I said, the (19)50s were rather conservative and the (19)60s were rather liberal. And it was not only sexually, but it was socially as well. (19)53 had been the Board of Education thing in Little Rock as just one manifestation of a major change which was ongoing. I do not remember how many years it took for many of the other southern schools to integrate, and there were always barriers to that integration, from the governors to the local citizenry. I think if you look oh and (19)61 was Cuba, right? It is interesting. If you look at, look at Robert Rauschenberg's art, you see pieces of news clippings from that era in the paintings, but testing to the awareness and the sense that art was a contributing factor to changes in society. IG: 28:37 Yeah, I think that is I believe that too. That it always is in dialog with its time. What about the Vietnam War? You were in medical school, so you were kind of not impervious, but you were protected against the draft. NF: 28:57 Well, here is you are here is your real story. So, in the must have been (19)65 the war is heating up, and the military offered doctors, potential doctors, the opportunity to defer their training, I am sorry, to defer their entry into the military until they completed their training. Actually, maybe this occurred a little later, and so we were offered to go in as either a first lieutenant or as a captain when you finished your training. So, I did elect to take that opportunity to defer my-my entry, because maybe the war would be over, whereas colleagues of mine were going after the internship or first year residency, and then as the war carried on and became increasingly unpopular and embittering, I decided I was not under any circumstances are going to go. So, I had a few options, Canada, jail, or what I decided to do was to apply for conscientious objector status. Now, in order to do that, you have to prove that you had some measure of that prior to your deciding that. So, because of my anti-war activity, etc., I thought I had the criteria. And the military criteria is that you have to be interviewed by a military officer, a religious person, and I am missing one military, the religious, it will come to me anyway, all three people approved of my sincerity. That was the criteria. You had to be sincere and convincing. So, the military turned me down, even though I met the criteria. So, I went to court and at the what do you call it, the lowest level of the federal courts, IG: 32:00 The city? NF: 32:10 No, well, whatever- IG: 32:15 Where was it? Where- NF: 32:16 In New York. IG: 32:16 In New York City. NF: 32:17 Yeah, I was turned down two to one, so we went to the appellate court, where I did win again, two to one, and the military gave me a discharge. IG: 32:37 How long did that process take? NF: 32:41 Let us see from probably from (19)68 to (19)71 or (197)2. IG: 32:52 It is a long time. NF: 32:54 Yeah. IG: 32:54 To be fighting. NF: 32:56 Yeah. IG: 32:56 What- were you already practicing as a doctor? NF: 33:01 When I know well, that is not exactly true when-when I finished my training, I needed a job, and I applied to different institutions in the city here we were going to live in the city. That was a decision made, IG: 33:21 And were you married at the time? NF: 33:23 Oh yes-yes, married in (19)65 I had to tell each of the different institutions what the status could I could disappear at any time. And most of them did not care. I mean, they said, that is fine, yeah, you know, we want you. We will take you, and I took a position. IG: 33:54 What were you doing? NF: 33:55 Hematology. NF: 33:56 Yes. IG: 33:57 Still. So, what did that? What did that involve? What did your work involve? Were you an MD? You are not an MD/PhD? IG: 34:01 Right. IG: 34:01 No, just an MD. IG: 34:08 Just, yeah. NF: 34:11 It involved teaching, some administrative work, running the blood clotting laboratory at the hospital, taking care of patients. IG: 34:25 Right. So-so before you said that so institutions did not care about your wanting to be a subject and being snatched at any moment. NF: 34:42 Right-right-right. IG: 34:43 Because you must have impressed them with all of your training. And- NF: 34:47 Because I had good training. IG: 34:48 Right. You had a good training. May I ask where you had your training? NF: 34:52 Sure, when I graduated upstate, I went to Montefiore Hospital. IG: 34:58 Oh, that is okay. Yeah. NF: 34:59 And spent three, three years there, and then, including one year fellowship. And then I went to NYU and spent two years there. IG: 35:15 Did Montefiore, at the time, have its reputation of providing, you know, first rate care to the poor. NF: 35:23 Yes-yes. They are both terrific institutions in terms of care, of course, right. IG: 35:30 In terms of that. NF: 35:31 Yes, sure, yeah. IG: 35:34 Okay, so-so you know, the-the Vietnam War was your participation in it was you narrowly, kind of escaped. And so, tell us about, we are entering into the (19)70s. So, tell us about, you know what, what your life- NF: 36:03 So, the (19)70s were the time of my beginning my career. Yeah, I took my first job in (19)71. And I had my first child in (19)71 my wife, who is probably very much smarter than I am, who was getting her PhD in biochemistry, environmental medicine at NYU. So, she had a little more leeway, I think, in terms of childcare, but I was pretty diligent about coming home to see the daughter. See my daughter and our son was born in (19)74 and my wife, who kept looking at what I was doing and what she was doing, thought she really wanted to be a physician as well. So, after some contention, she went to she got into NYU in (19)74 in medical school as a sophomore, so she did not have to compete with all the new kids on the block. And finished, I guess, in (19)76 and became an ophthalmologist. So. IG: 37:45 So, in some way, this is the (19)70s, especially the late (19)70s, or the beginning of the feminist movement, but you were already practicing that in your married life. NF: 37:55 Yeah, a little bit reluctantly. I must confess. IG: 37:57 Why? Because you had expectations that she would take a different route, or? NF: 38:03 Well, I guess, because she already had a doctorate and to now go to school when we have, you know, a child in the crib and one on the way, seemed like a lot of burden would fall to me. IG: 38:27 You were the one to do the child rearing. NF: 38:30 Well, to a certain extent. I mean, we hired a wonderful woman who stayed with us for innumerable years. But nevertheless, there are weekends and evenings. IG: 38:45 Right. Of course, of course. So, did you-you know your wife when she became a physician, did you go into practice together, or were you working with a completely so what is her specialization? NF: 39:04 Ophthalmology. IG: 39:05 ophthalmology, of course. I am sorry. I am sorry, of course, of course, I am sorry. NF: 39:11 And we live here, yeah, we, we were living in an Edmonton here in a one-bedroom apartment. And then we came into Manhattan, because we both wanted to live in Manhattan, and we had a very nice two-bedroom apartment, but, you know, we had a boy and a girl, and we thought we would need to do something about that eventually. And we had taken, we had taken a European trip and went to Scandinavia, and she took a social tour while I did some other thing. And what she had learned was that in Sweden, you had to wait about. Seven years before you could get an apartment. So, she said, that is going to happen here. We better buy something. So, we have for several years. We bump it around, looking for something that we could afford, and then ultimately came up with this. IG: 40:18 So, you have had this in your position? [crosstalk] Well, that is, it is, was it a ground space like this? Renovate over the years? NF: 40:31 There was there was only this column, a kitchen here, a small bathroom. And perhaps, as a measure of the feminist movement, we hired a woman architect who was just wonderful, probably the best architect we have had since we have been doing things. IG: 40:55 It is a gorgeous it is a gorgeous apartment. So, did you, you know, did your activity- did you have any activity in politics, or you had no time for that? But you- NF: 41:11 I had no time, and I have no inclination. NF: 41:15 It is not that I am concerned about it, very diligent about knowing what is going on. IG: 41:15 No inclination. So, um- IG: 41:25 Did you did you keep in touch with any of your fellow students from Harpur College? NF: 41:32 Good question. The- in those days when we assembled in one room and, you know, shot the breeze, my roommate was a six-foot three tall guy who used to wear a red cowboy hat, and he lived many places upstate, because his father was in the military, and they would shuttle around. And I really got to like him. The irony, of course, was that he taught me all about contemporary American classical music and about Bach and- IG: 42:23 How interesting. NF: 42:24 Yes-yes. So, we remained friends for a while, and then we lost touch over the years, and then when our 50th reunion time came, I contacted him to ask if he was going to be attending. He was a scholar, political science scholar, well, particularly involved in Korea, and he was still a professor at the time. IG: 42:56 Where was- NF: 42:57 At UC Irvine. IG: 43:01 Oh. NF: 43:03 And unfortunately, he could not come to the reunion. He was too busy. But we have been in contact and visited since. IG: 43:12 Very nice, very nice. NF: 43:14 So, I saw him just a few months ago. IG: 43:17 Oh, here or in California? NF: 43:22 Actually here. Yeah, his wife has family on Long Island. IG: 43:28 I see. So, when you get together, how do you remember Harpur? What do you say about- NF: 43:34 Oh, we do not talk [crosstalk] IG: 43:36 You do not talk. No-no-no. NF: 43:39 You know, our lives have moved on. IG: 43:40 Of course, of course. NF: 43:42 I must say that I enjoyed attending the 50th reunion. I was surprised because I had not liked my reunions at Bronx Science. Had not liked them at all, and I was not particularly enamored of reunion at Upstate, but I like the 50th that. IG: 44:08 Why do you say that? Because of the kind of people- NF: 44:11 Yeah-yeah, right. IG: 44:12 Yeah. I think it is, it is a very strong group of people, you know, at least the ones that I have been talking- NF: 44:22 It is interesting that of the people that I remember, I do not know that anybody became that famous from my class. IG: 44:36 Well, you know, as I said it, from your class, from (19)62. NF: 44:41 Yeah. IG: 44:42 The class of (19)62 you know, I-I do not know about the class of (19)62 but I think it is sort of, you know, a quality of a turn, a certain turn of mind that, you know, people were very engaged in their time, and they accomplished something with their lives. You know, whether it got them fame or, you know, they wrote books or they you know, their circle of influence may have been, not as you know, not conspicuous, but, I mean, it was circle of influence in their community, but maybe it was not known about to you know to others. NF: 45:32 Well, you have to remember that the class, I think, had a max of 200 students, and by the second year, it was down to, I think about 105 it shrunk considerably through dropouts and transfers, I guess. IG: 45:50 Dropouts and transfers and the maybe the war, or that the war was true. NF: 45:57 No, I do not think so. Yeah-yeah. And also, there were, I mean, the male female relation ratio. There probably 65, 35. IG: 46:13 65 female, 65 male. NF: 46:15 Male. IG: 46:15 Oh. NF: 46:17 Yeah, there were- there were not that many women. IG: 46:22 And there probably were even fewer international students, minorities. NF: 46:28 Very few. Yeah, I think there were two black kids in our class. IG: 46:35 How do you think that your classmates remember you? NF: 46:38 [laughs] I well, I think other than the ones who I would have re met in the 50th most of them do not remember me at all. I was not uh- IG: 47:06 But what how do you think that they remembered, if they you know, certainly the person that you-you know, who teaches at Irvine, remembered you? NF: 47:16 Oh, yeah, sure. IG: 47:17 You know how did he you know, you did not really discuss how you each remembered each other. NF: 47:28 No, it was like there had been no interval time. IG: 47:35 I see, that is wonderful. That is a wonderful feeling. And you met on campus. NF: 47:42 No-no-no. We met here in the city. IG: 47:44 You met- NF: 47:45 You mean originally. IG: 47:46 Originally. You went to the 50th reunion, which was on campus. So- NF: 47:52 No-no, but he did not attend. IG: 47:53 He did not attend. NF: 47:54 Right. IG: 47:55 So, but- okay, so I was going to ask you, know, how was how did Binghamton strike you 50 years later? NF: 48:09 Well, Binghamton, I think, was a pretty rundown city. The two things I remember most specifically about it, or it had a wonderful art movie theater, and it was a very significant factor in my arts world, even to the present. And the second thing was it had a reasonable black community, and it was always fun to go down into the black community to the bars and drink there. IG: 48:52 Well, that is great. So, Binghamton is still a depressed city. NF: 49:02 Yes-yes, correct. IG: 49:04 It is still a depressed city. But at your during that time, there was, perhaps, when you were in college, there was more industry there. I mean, no, NF: 49:14 I was not aware of that. IG: 49:16 You were not aware of that. NF: 49:17 No, the-the, I mean, the only industry I think that I was at all aware of was the Johnson shoe factory. IG: 49:27 Right. NF: 49:28 And they were basically gone already. IG: 49:35 Yeah, I have met people who worked [crosstalk] NF: 49:37 And then IBM was in that area there. And in fact, the botany course that I took often would go to their grounds. The botany professor was a terrific professor, and I guess he got permission to meander. So [crosstalk] IG: 50:02 So, it must have been a beautiful headquarters that IBM [crosstalk] NF: 50:07 You know [crosstalk] IG: 50:09 So-so, you know. Do you think overall that Harpur College prepared you for your future career, not directly, of course, because- NF: 50:19 Well, what I think I started off with was that Harpur prepared me to learn. It made learning exciting and interesting, and whether it was the professors or the courses or the student body, totally does not really matter, but it was- did not quell my interest in learning. And I thought the social milieu, the excitement about politics and what was going on in the larger community of the US was I was very much involved in what was going on at the college at that time, and I think that was also very important in broadening my experience and opening my eyes to what was going on. IG: 51:23 So-so, you know, I am curious, how do you spend your time now? What are some of the pursuits that you are engaged with? NF: 51:32 You mean, as a retired physician? [laughs] IG: 51:36 Yeah-yeah, yes. NF: 51:38 Well, let us give a universal overview. We spend nine months of the year in New York City and three months in a home that we bought in California. IG: 51:51 Where in California? NF: 51:54 Santa Barbara. Not bad, huh? IG: 51:57 Not bad, not bad. NF: 52:00 We have been very fortunate. And so, of the nine months here, we also have a house upstate New York, so [crosstalk] we are just east of Rhinebeck, Hudson Valley. IG: 52:19 That is lovely. Been there recently. NF: 52:23 So, we spend weekends up there. So given those three parameters- IG: 52:30 You probably [inaudible] well, I mean from one house to another. NF: 52:36 When we, when we bought the Upstate house in 1973, I said to my wife, who has been the real estate agent in the family, "Well, it is okay. We will buy this house, but we are not going to not travel on vacation," and so we have traveled extensively over the years. IG: 53:01 Where have you gone? Some of the places- NF: 53:04 We have gone to, most of the countries in Asia, standard European travel. We came back from Safari this year in Botswana, Zimbabwe. We have been in Colombia and Argentina, Morocco. IG: 53:28 What stands out in your memory? What-what is, you know, what are some of the most impressive places that you have seen? NF: 53:38 I think if you spoke to each of us, the most exciting time we have ever had was in Cambodia. It was just wonderful. But sometimes getting out of the country revolves around people, and we have very good friends in Turin Italy who we see on a reasonably regular basis and go around Italy with them. So that is also wonderful having known somebody for over 50 years. IG: 54:19 You know, looking back at the decade, at the (19)60s, are you sometimes you know- do you sometimes recognize that you know the world has changed in your dramatically in your lifetime? NF: 54:38 We only hope to live long enough to see it go back to the (19)60s. [laughs] IG: 54:46 That is a great answer. NF: 54:49 I mean, that was the most exciting era that most of the exciting decade that I remember. IG: 54:56 I think so in in every way, almost- NF: 54:59 Yeah. Yeah. IG: 55:00 I think I would, yeah. NF: 55:03 But you had asked me in another- oh, and how I spend my time now. IG: 55:07 Yeah. NF: 55:08 Okay. Well, as you can see, I collect photographs IG: 55:15 Yes. NF: 55:15 Okay, and those the ones you are looking at are not the prime example of what I collect. I collect panoramic photos. It is my niche. I do not- IG: 55:31 These are these are prints. These are prints that you have on the wall. They are not photographs. IG: 55:37 They are photographs. IG: 55:39 So, do you go to galleries, or do you go to antiques? NF: 55:48 Mostly antiques. IG: 55:49 And where do you find them? In New York City, or all over? NF: 55:53 All over. IG: 55:54 All over. NF: 55:55 Yeah, so that is one thing. Secondly, when I started to retire in 1960 [inaudible] [laughter], in 2000 [laughs] Mr. Freud. IG: 56:18 Yes-yes. NF: 56:19 I started to play the piano, and I am not a very good pianist, but I enjoy it. So. IG: 56:29 So, you, you never had music lessons before? NF: 56:32 Well, I played the violin when I was 10-year-old for a couple years. IG: 56:36 Okay. NF: 56:36 I play golf. I go to a lot of museums and galleries. For several years, when I was in California, I worked at the Santa Barbara Museum in the photography department as a volunteer. IG: 56:58 How wonderful. How wonderful. So, you learned a tremendous amount about photography. NF: 57:03 Yeah, but unfortunately, the curator died. IG: 57:08 Have you read Susan Sontag On Photography? NF: 57:12 It is on the table on my upstate New York [crosstalk] IG: 57:18 It is an obvious question. NF: 57:20 Right. NF: 57:22 What else do I do? We entertain a lot. We have a lot of friends here, upstate, California, and then I am having my family. IG: 57:39 And your kids are- NF: 57:40 My daughter is in walking distance with her two grandchildren, and my son, I have to get on the subway and take four stops. IG: 57:48 You are very lucky. You are very lucky. NF: 57:50 It is really a burden, yeah. IG: 57:54 So-so, you know- NF: 57:57 I do not think it is luck. IG: 57:57 What? NF: 57:58 I do not think it is luck. IG: 58:00 You know, it, I do not think it is luck, but luck, you know, chance and luck does play a part, you know? I mean, it is, well, I mean, this is a [inaudible] NF: 58:11 They could migrate. IG: 58:12 They could migrate. This is a philosophical question. I think, I think, you know, certainly, it is a lot of what you have, the life that you have created. But I think that there is an element of luck or not, you know, it is, it is the historic it is the context in which the historical time in which you live, you know, it is the environment around you, you know? I mean, there are a lot of contributing sure forces that are outside of our control, NF: 58:44 Right. [crosstalk] IG: 58:50 If you were to, I would like you to tell us, if you - what lessons did you learn from your-your years at Harpur College? What would you like? What advice would you give to current students who listen to this tape? What-what are important qualities or, you know- NF: 59:20 The problem as I see it, in answering that question is the-the insular nature of our life compared to youth. So, I-I could say things that I think are maybe more universal, and the first one would be not to dismiss people who are so different from you, but rather to take in their experience and way of being and try to enrich yourself from the way they are. The second would be trying to listen to what people have to say, even those that are like you, if their views are different than yours, but not to be so passive as not to argue. My one of my hematology professors, who is a just a wonderful gem of a man, always said that you can always argue with me, as long as it is not an ad hominem argument. I-I guess the other thing would be, just keep on learning things you know your own enrichment is at least as important as what you do, because as you age, you need to, you need to be excited about the life you are living. IG: 1:01:26 Yes, and you need to fill up the spaces that that were taken up so much by your profession. NF: 1:01:33 Sure-sure. I have always told people who are getting ready to retire, because I retired pretty young was the hardest thing to give up. Is not the work you do or your clients, it is your comrades here that the, you know, two second interaction that you have with somebody in the hallway or, you know, is vital, is how you feel? IG: 1:02:06 Yeah, I-I could not agree with you more. And these interactions may be even more important for young people, you know, whose world is. You know, I well, I mean, I remember that in graduate school, my best education, my greatest education, was talking in a coffee house with my- NF: 1:02:31 Sure. IG: 1:02:31 -with my fellow- NF: 1:02:32 Sure, Hmm-mm. IG: 1:02:33 -students. So, do you have any- well, what were, for example, we can expand on this, what were the most important less, what was the most important lesson in your life? I mean, this is, this is sort of answering the question that you have just answered is NF: 1:03:01 Not answered. [laughs] IG: 1:03:03 You cannot answer it. NF: 1:03:04 No. Did not I not answer it? IG: 1:03:06 You did. You did. So, this is, this is not a question that we need to ask. So do you have any concluding remarks, any words of wisdom that you want to impart to our students, anything that you have not said. NF: 1:03:32 Well, I think yes, I would say that in the midst of your most industrious work when you are at the height of your career and apparently overwhelmed by the amount of work you seem to need to do, you have to have some other outlet, something that interests you, whether it be reading a book or taking a photograph or playing tennis or something, has to intercede in the times of stress. I do not believe in stress, so let us take the word out of it in times when you are busiest and most focused, I think you need to unfocus. IG: 1:04:26 I think you are right. I think you are right. Well, thank you very much. NF: 1:04:32 Just add one thing that I forget that have mentioned when I was in the twilight of my career, somebody from Harpur called and asked if I would be interested in not entertaining, but having a student from the college who was interested in potentially going into medicine. Would I mind if they came to the office? Had watched me work, and I- IG: 1:05:07 It is really good idea. NF: 1:05:08 I did that for a couple of years, and had a wonderful time. Just wonderful. The students had a wonderful time. And I did too, because it was like, invigorating. IG: 1:05:20 Right. NF: 1:05:21 You know, because it again. One, you are doing something, I think that is useful. But two, it is teaching. And teaching the young is just a wonderful thing. IG: 1:05:39 It is, it is, even when you were young and you are teaching. NF: 1:05:44 Yes-yes-yes. IG: 1:05:45 It is still a wonderful thing. It is still a wonderful thing. So, I think that we can conclude our conversation, and I thank you very much for a content full discussion, something to- NF: 1:06:07 Thank you. IG: 1:06:08 Thank you for- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixites alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Friedberg, Neal M ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Neal Friedberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-05-31 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:08 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce2e627f2a8747c7261af291eea4cf86.mp3 cb2f41afd3d39e075bd7a07f07ebedeb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/561c2d66ff533bb20b5a79f09156802b.jpg 9d6a1bea7886138291f5211f75838f61 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Lobenfeld Year of Graduation 1971 Biographical Text A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Lobenfeld Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lobenfeld, Eric ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Eric Lobenfeld.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:58 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/008f61d49e0ca729173249242f843919.mp3 5d5d4cad0668732fca392595bf404467 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5228d1eb94e14f64f22d69ad8aa588db.jpg c9d63360b96fec76a9140d39f18badf5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Nachman Year of Graduation 1973 Biographical Text Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Philip Nachman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) PN: 00:04 My name is Philip Nachman. We are having this interview in my home in Watertown, Massachusetts. IG: 00:09 When did you go to- PN: 00:12 I was a student in Binghamton from the fall of (19)70 through the spring of (19)73. IG: 00:18 Okay, and how old are you? PN: 00:21 How old was I at the time? IG: 00:22 No-no. PN: 00:22 Yeah, I am 67 years old. IG: 00:24 Okay, all right, so, Philip, where did you grow up? PN: 00:28 I grew up in Troy, New York. IG: 00:31 Oh, in Troy. And who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from? PN: 00:36 Sure-sure. Well, my father, Burton Nachman, grew up in Schenectady, a town next to Troy, and married my mother, who was from Troy, which is like 15 miles away, and he married into a family business of my mother's family, which was men's clothing store that had been there since like 1905 that her father and uncles started at that era. So, from your from- both of them have gone to college. So, I am not the first generation in college. I have an older brother, four years older, also went to college, went to Ithaca College. So very much rooted in upstate New York. Very much rooted historically in upstate New York. Yeah. IG: 01:19 So, they expect- what was the expectation of you that you would go on to college or, PN: 01:26 Oh yeah, yes [laughs] IG: 01:28 Yes. Okay, so education was valued in your family, absolutely. PN: 01:33 Yeah. It was throughout, yeah. IG: 01:36 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur? PN: 01:39 Well, I had spent my first two years at another school at Hofstra University on Long Island, and I did not like it, basically, so I wanted to transfer. And was casting about as to where to transfer to. I frankly, do not remember why I knew of Binghamton, but accepted me, so I went. So, I transferred in as a junior. IG: 02:00 Right. But it must have had some reputation, a good reputation- PN: 02:05 I am sure it did, yeah, uh- IG: 02:07 -inclined to transfer there rather than some other school. PN: 02:11 I honestly do not recall where else I may have applied just; I am not sure. I do not know that it necessarily was I needed financially to go to a public university, although I am sure it helped. So, I probably wanted a liberal arts school. I was not focused on engineering or the hard sciences in Binghamton, while they had had and have that also was really known as a liberal arts school. And from a practical standpoint, at that era, the school was attempting to increase its upper-upper division students, meaning juniors and seniors. Therefore, they were making it attractive for people to go there in terms of admissions, not that there was housing for these students. There was not. So, I probably knew someone who had gone there something like that, but I do not, I do not recall exactly. IG: 03:05 Right. And housing, you said so, but- PN: 03:09 There were not enough dorms. IG: 03:11 There were not enough dorms. PN: 03:12 So- IG: 03:12 Where did you end up? PN: 03:14 Well, I had a cousin, who actually cousin a year older, who was going to Binghamton. Maybe that is why I knew about the place, and I crashed in his room, I think, on his floor, while I looked for an apartment. And in those days, there was no Craigslist, there was a bulletin board. So, I went to the student housing office, looked at the bulletin board. Someone standing next to me was looking at the bulletin board. They were looking for a place. So, we apparently, yeah, we found a place together. Did not know the person from Adam worked out fine, some apartment in Vestal. And uh- IG: 03:47 You found a place in Vestal? PN: 03:48 Yeah, I think, I think the first place I lived was-was in Vestal, on Reno Boulevard. IG: 03:55 Did you have a car? Or did you [inaudible] PN: 03:58 I think, I think, yeah, I believe I did have a car. Yeah, I did. IG: 04:03 So, what was your first experience of Harpur College? What did it seem like to you after Hofstra? PN: 04:14 Very different in terms of the geography. Hofstra was built on a former airstrip, ugly ascent [crosstalk] you know the place. All right, 14 story concrete towers were from the era of concrete is great. Let us use more of it. Kind of ugly. So, I in terms of the geography, let us say literally, and sort of the socio-economic world. Because of having grown up in an old, sort of semi run down industrial town, I sort of got it right away, as opposed to Long Island, which was really one big suburb of New York. And even though I grew up in upstate New York, I was not that familiar necessarily with New York. City or its environs. So, I sort of understood, literally and figuratively, the landscape, the sort of social landscape of the town, not so much the school, but of the town. So, I liked that. I think there was probably a lot of construction and a lot of mud. Everyone wore, all the students were sort of hiking boots, or construction boots and flannel shirts. That was the that was the uniform in those days. Part of it is that was the fashion. But it turned out to be worthwhile because it was a big mud pit. There was a lot of construction. IG: 05:43 It still is. PN: 05:44 It still is a lot of construction, yeah, I see from the alumni news magazine and all of that. So, plenty of long-haired hippies, plenty of drug, sex and rock and roll, which is probably true of almost everywhere other than maybe West Point. Yeah. So yeah, it was sort of a, yeah, a normal liberal state university anywhere in the northeast, frankly, or elsewhere. IG: 06:07 But did you find it to be stronger what we were strong, not stronger, but strong in the in the humanities and the liberal arts? IG: 06:17 So, who did you read? PN: 06:17 Yeah. I mean, I gravitated toward, American history, sociology, anthropology, those areas, and at that time at least, you could petition some academic board to create your own major. You would need to get an academic advisor. So, I created a major in American Studies, which was not a major at that time. It may be now, and other schools have it, but it was not a particularly well-known thing in those days. But that way, I could mix my interests, and there were plenty of courses for me to take, which I enjoyed, and I actually one professor who I believe is still alive in his 90s. Taught, among other things, Jewish American literature, which I Sheldon Grebstein, he later became a president, I think of SUNY, SUNY, New Paltz, I think, or something like that. And that really had an effect on me. That was interesting to me. PN: 06:37 Saul Bellow, Roth, those authors that were current at the time, Jewish American authors, right, (19)50s and (19)60s, basically. PN: 07:26 You read Herzog. IG: 07:28 Herzog. Yep. IG: 07:29 What did you read of- PN: 07:31 Which- IG: 07:32 -of Roth. PN: 07:33 Roth. PN: 07:34 Well, there were two Roths. Call it Sleep, Henry Roth. IG: 07:34 Yes. IG: 07:38 Right-right. PN: 07:39 Not a lot of people, necessarily [crosstalk] IG: 07:41 I have not read it, but I know. PN: 07:43 Yeah, all right, yeah. So, whatever his Roth has since gone on to write many, many other books, but Bernard Malamud probably had more made more of an impression on me. The Empty Barrel [The Magic Barrel], or something like that the whole bunch of them. So, they were very interesting to me in terms of my own Jewish American identity, and in an odd way, that is I was more comfortable in Binghamton than on Long Island. I did not know. I sort of did not know what to do as almost the majority, I grew up in this town that was certainly like Binghamton. And I was much more comfortable in upstate New York, where the Jews were a minority. I sort of understood the social structure. I did not know about poor Jews, rich Jews, and everyone in between, which you would have in metropolitan New York, bazillion papers [crosstalk] I did not know about that. So, I just felt more comfortable somehow. And so those back to the courses. So, some American history courses. Just, I think there was a civil war course, just, I probably could find my transcript in the attic. IG: 09:04 I am curious about the-the- was it only American, Jewish writers, or were there- PN: 09:10 In that particular class was happens to be that subject. As far as other literature classes, I suspect I took one or two others. I do not remember, it did not, they did not have as much. IG: 09:26 I am very interested in how that shaped your identity. That that, you know, a course like that could have helped, you know, build, yeah, well, the person that you are. PN: 09:39 It certainly did. I mean, it was very ethnocentric, obviously, but in a strange, in an odd way, it was very American. It was the American experience of these characters. And it did not make me religious. I am not. But it certainly informed more my identity, I guess. And I am not-not digging as deeply as you would like, because I am not sure exactly how to tell you think about it, um, just, well some-some of those books had characters that were living through poverty and, you know, in the Lower East Side, let us say, and discrimination that I may not have directly felt. IG: 10:34 For example, which, which of the books do you remember? PN: 10:36 Well, certainly call it, call it sleep. A lot of poverty, grinding poverty, and abusive or maybe alcoholic father who left, and all these things I did not know from that stuff. So that was sort of interesting, because it gave me a range of types. And the Roth books, which, again, had, I do not remember as well. PN: 11:03 Philip Roth. PN: 11:04 Yeah-yeah. Philip Roth, sorry, yeah. We talked about Henry. Now, as far as Saul Bellow, his characters were sort of bigger than life. Augie March, I think, and not him bolt, something like that. This guy who was in Africa. He was got of his mind this bigger than life character. PN: 11:25 Was it Herzog? IG: 11:25 Herzog, well, I mean, he was also a bigger than life a long time ago. But is not he from, you know, I do not think that he was born in America? He might be an immigrant from Eastern Europe, PN: 11:39 Possibly. IG: 11:40 You know it, but I know that it, it, it is just kind of a deeply felt novel- IG: 11:50 -of the academic experience, you know, and the Jewish American- PN: 11:50 Yeah. PN: 11:56 Yeah, I do not know about well this guy, I am trying to maybe confuse him with another character, but he was a little bit off his rocker, and he was just this roaring presence. Maybe [inaudible] I do not remember, you know, when did I read it, 45 years ago. [laughs] IG: 12:14 You know, they obviously- PN: 12:16 Stuck. Yeah. So, yeah so all of that sort of informed what I knew of the Jewish American experience was, which was in the people I knew. And this might be true of Binghamton, if you were Jewish and you had gone to college, or even if not, you were either a lawyer, an accountant, a doctor or you owned a retail store that describes my family exactly, my father's cousins, my mother's siblings, where we had a store that was downtown, as in Binghamton. A lot of the retail stores were Jews whose parents were born in Europe, as my grandparents all were. And which brings me back to that is why I just sort of got Binghamton. Even if I did not go shopping, I did not need to sort of go shopping. But uh, so that is what I knew. I did not know about Jewish taxi drivers, Jewish cops, Jewish firemen. I later, in Boston, many years later, went out with someone whose father who was Jewish. Her father was a captain in the New York Fire Department. I did not know; I did not know there was a such thing. I mean, it was totally, really, well, and then the others who were not maybe as well off as my parents in the milieu I just described, were clerks in retail stores, or they were teachers. Not a lot of ditch diggers that I knew about. They may have been there, but I did not know about them, but they probably were not. I mean, that is just- IG: 13:49 And writers. I mean, you were reading the writers? PN: 13:51 Yes, right-right, yeah. And it turns out there are colleges in Troy, RBI and Russell Sage and in the next town Union, so it is sort of a college environment, some of those professors were Jewish, and I knew their kids because I went to elementary and high school with them and all of that. So that is just kind of the that is what I knew the Jewish world to be. Yes, although an uncle of mine was a milkman, somehow that did not compute, yeah, but, and then later, owned a trucking company, but he married my aunt, who was a lawyer, very, really rare. There were two people in our law school class, I mean, 1920 or something. So, all of that broadened my understanding of the Jewish community in America. Let us put it that way. Did not mean I pursued anything or ever, you know, religiously, right? But somehow it just informed my being. IG: 14:46 Right. PN: 14:52 Now the other courses, let me think about that. I mean, I was interested in the American history courses, whatever they were, you know, I just thing- I am thinking about too. One was the Civil War class written taught by a very interesting young radical who later committed suicide. It was the strangest thing. Robert Starobin, you may know the name. He was this radical leftist historian of slavery, and I had him as a teacher, interesting young guy, and he later, well, I was not in his class anymore, but I was still at the university. He later killed himself. It was shocking and remarkable, and I did, actually, I have done a little bit of- IG: 15:38 It happened in your time? PN: 15:40 Yeah, it happened in my time. It was probably in 1971 possibly (19)72 and his father was a pretty well-known leftist academic right and even collaborated on. IG: 15:51 How did it impact you or your probably was the first encounter with suicide? PN: 15:56 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] I knew it was baffling. I thought it was terrible loss. I thought it was because I may have borrowed someone's paper and cheated or something. I do not think it mattered that much to IG: 16:13 Yeah, but you personalize it. PN: 16:15 Yeah, I personalized it, you know, completely wrong. He had other, a lot other-other issues having nothing to do with me. But there was a funny scene with him, sort of fun. He grew up, I think, in Queens or something, so a city kid, and I think a friend of mine had locked his keys in his card, left them in the ignition, and I must have been so in the class, and I mentioned it to Starobin, and he said, "All right, here, let us see what we can do." He got a coat hanger. He went outside, he put the coat hanger, got the coat hanger in the car, like going sort of around, and threw the rubber gasket around the window, actually hooked the key that was in the ignition and pulled it out. IG: 16:56 Wow. Pretty slick. PN: 16:58 Pretty slick. That was very cool. IG: 17:02 You only knew how to pick locks as well. PN: 17:05 I do not know. IG: 17:06 That is very impressive. PN: 17:08 It was very impressive, right-right. And this professor who taught the Jewish American literature course described himself, and this is Sheldon Grebstein. There was a graduate. There was a TI in the class. He described himself. He was very self-aware as a middle brow intellectual. It was so interesting versus, I mean, basically the guy was sort of saying, I am not going to win the Nobel Prize. I am not teaching at Harvard. I did not go there. I know who I am. I am happy where I am teaching, etc., etc., and it was just so interesting to see someone that this is who I am. He was a very interesting and a good teacher. Was a great teacher. And he and I think his thesis was on some other American literature having nothing to do with Jewish I mean, basically that was an interest of his, among others. And I Googled him recently, and I to see if he was still alive. He might be. I had called him about two years ago to thank him for an interesting course 45 years. I left a message. I never got a call back, and I Googled him the other day. If he is alive, he is 92 so. IG: 18:18 92 he can be still quite active. I knew, I know. PN: 18:21 He could be, yeah. IG: 18:21 Yeah, he could be. PN: 18:24 So, I so getting back to the school have any effect, yeah. I mean, I am remembering these things with fondness. And academically, I was no academic star. I was not trying to get into law school. I was not killing myself. I was sort of a lost liberal arts graduate. I do not know what the hell I was doing. Many people did not, IG: 18:52 Yeah, many people did not. PN: 18:55 Yeah. I mean, you know, people who knew they wanted to be an engineer, in a way, it was easier. First of all, the curriculum is quite set. Secondly, they were really focused on it. It was really quite concrete. You either got it you got the problem, right or wrong. [laughs] IG: 19:14 Yeah, itis a different, very different. It is a very different career trajectory. When you know from the outset. IG: 19:21 Well, that is a trajectory. PN: 19:23 I did not have a trajectory. IG: 19:25 You know- so how did you fall into the career that you have now? What-what exactly do you do? PN: 19:33 Well, I am- I have my own business as a recruiter, headhunter, executive search consultant specifically for the medical device business and some pharmaceutical--Boston happens to be a center for that. I got into that because probably not so much when I was an undergraduate. But later on, I decided I wanted to save the world. So modest-modest role. IG: 20:00 Yeah [laughs] yeah. PN: 20:00 So, I wound up studying public health, because if you save the world, want to do it have a big impact. IG: 20:09 Yeah. PN: 20:09 Wholesale. IG: 20:10 Where did you study public health? PN: 20:12 The University of Florida, public health and health education, and, more specifically, gerontology. A number of years after I got out of undergrad. So, to me, that was a way to save the bigger swath. So, I wound up, I pursued that and worked at a hospital having to do with public health and training of hospital staff and issues of Geriatric mental health. I did that for number of years, maybe four or five, and then wound up getting a job for a medical device company that had a product that had to do with, specifically with the elderly, to enable them to stay home longer and not go to a nursing home, if, if they were- IG: 20:56 What is a product? PN: 20:57 It is called lifeline. It was like a beeper system for- get people help. The point of that was for me, having studied gerontology and having worked in a community health center where I was going out to nursing homes to do training of staff, there are people in nursing homes, or at least there were then, who are not there for skilled care. They are there almost for it is just a safer environment, and they give up a lot of autonomy, but they are afraid they or their children, are afraid they are going to be home alone and fall and they will be discovered a week later by the mailman. So, this was an F this machine, which was invented by a psychologist, gerontologist in Boston was-was to enable people like that or did not need skilled care to stay at home with some security, that if they had a problem, they could get help. And there was even a timer, if they did not reset it every day, it would automatically get them help. Very clever product. So, I said, “Wow,” that is for me. I was not interested in capitalism. I was not interested in machines, but I thought this thing was great. So, I wound up getting a job at that company. Took me some lobbying and sometime right as a field service engineer, which is kind of funny, because I am no engineer, but a big part of it was training. PN: 22:18 What does a field service [crosstalk] PN: 22:20 Field service engineer is someone who fixes hospital equipment, either in a hospital or in a field, as the title might sort of imply, and does some training on how to use it. Well, I was the training director at a hospital, I know, and I was that was something I was good at and liked the stage, you know. So, it was a relatively simple device, and I could be trained to install it and to fix it and to teach people how to install it and all that. And I was great at it. But a bigger part of it, and probably a bigger part of my success in that, was understanding sort of the milieu in which it would go, and liking the training part and being comfortable in and around hospitals, because I had worked in one, so I-I wanted to do something at that company, and frankly, I did not care what that was the job that was open. So, he hired me, and it was great, great experience. And then I was promoted, and I became a salesperson for that company and trained a field service engineer under me. This goes back to 1984, (19)81. God, (19)81 and I am still in touch with people I worked with. Startups are like that. There is a cause, you know, spread, of course, especially if you think the product has real value, you know, social value. So- IG: 23:42 What do you think that you know this belief in the product lent to your contributed to your success in sales? PN: 23:53 Oh, sure, I could not have just sold anything. I would not have cared about just anything. So, it-it related to the Gerontology stuff. It related to saving the world, even if it was only an elderly piece of it, uh- IG: 24:06 Which is a huge piece nowadays. PN: 24:08 Oh, yeah. So that worked out well. And then that later, to answer your earlier question, how did I get to do what I do now for a living? IG: 24:17 Yes. PN: 24:17 So, I worked for that company for three and a half, four years, quite successful at it, but I got bored with it. Single Product, same story every time. If there were technical problems, the same technical problems, right? At that point, I had already moved from Boston to Florida because of a promotion within the company. And I kind of missed living here, excuse me, so I happened to see an ad in the Boston paper when I was living in Florida, I was here for a meeting looking for a medical sales person, and I went for an interview at a recruiting place. And it turned out the actually the job was there. It was sort of false advertising. They wanted to expand the recruit efforts in the medical area. And they wanted someone who had been doing medical sales. So, I interviewed at this place, and then the guy came clean and said, actually, the job is here. I said, “What do you mean?” And it was almost like a Costello act or something, l IG: 25:17 A little bit false advertising. PN: 25:18 Yeah. I mean, in terms, in a way, it was medical sales. At any rate, I wound up working there. It was great. I moved back here. I had a wonderful mentor, a very generous guy who knew a lot about medical devices and medical stuff. He had gone to medical school for a year and had an MBA and decided I want to be a doctor. And wound up in that business, and great guy and I wound up working at this other company for three, four years, maybe five, and then I went off on my own doing the same thing. And that is 30 years ago. So, I have been doing this a long time, but it all. None of it was planned, believe me, however, these steps relate to one another. Even if there was no map, there certainly was no map. It had nothing to do with SUNY Binghamton. I can guarantee you, it probably had more to do with graduate school, where I was studying health related, IG: 26:13 Right, of course, of course. PN: 26:17 So that is how I got to do what I do. And I am not retired. I still do it, and that is- IG: 26:25 How did you trust your instincts? You know you said that you kind of none of it was planned, but everything was related. So how did you trust that your decision making in your career- PN: 26:42 Blind? IG: 26:43 -blind trust, or just you have a certain comfort for taking risks. PN: 26:48 Yeah, at that time, I certainly left a very good job at this lifeline system with base salary and bonuses and a company car, and took a job where I had to pay for myself to move with no salary, no benefits, no nothing. I do not know if it was out of my mind, but I could afford to do it. I was single. I could take a risk. I may not have even realized the risk. It worked out. It worked out fine. Not everyone can do that. A lot of people need to know that they have a weekly paycheck, I am just willing to live with it. IG: 27:26 Well, you know, for-for a somebody who is considering becoming an entrepreneur, as you, you have been for the last 30 years, what are some of the important qualities and things that you need to consider? You know, from your experience, that are most valuable for this. You said that you know you have to be comfortable without you know, having you know, an expected paycheck, or regular paycheck, regular benefits. I mean, what are some of the but what are some of the personal qualities that you think well, are needed? PN: 28:12 You have to be- have some self confidence that you can do it. So, if you are an electrical engineer, you have to be pretty sure that you are a creative electrical engineer. If you are your standard electrical engineer, you are not going to become a salesman, and vice versa. So, it has to be in a milieu in which you have already had some success. So, in the training milieu, when I was working at that hospital, and then in the sales milieu, when I worked for lifeline, and earlier in the field service and customer training milieu, I was successful. Having grown up in a retail business, which I mentioned earlier, starting in high school, I would work like summer or Christmas season or something, selling clothing, so the personal aspects of relating to people and presenting a product or a service, and explaining it, selling it, looking at why it might be valuable, it might not for someone, and if some and I will probably part of why I am successful at what I do is what I currently do. If the job is not right for someone, I will say, "You know what, this may not be the best thing for you." And taking a longer view of what-what works for people, and hopefully that honesty comes back to help you and not haunt you. IG: 29:34 How do you recruit people? Do you look on LinkedIn, or do people come to you? Or what happens. PN: 29:40 Keep going, all of the above. IG: 29:42 All of the above. A recruiter, PN: 29:45 Social media- IG: 29:46 Social media. Connections. PN: 29:47 [crosstalk] Forever, yeah, a lot, a lot of connections. In fact, I am going to a meeting this evening of a medical devices group, which is mostly engineers, and there will be a speaker talk. Talking about the latest whiz bang technology and why it works, why it does not discover about it. So being out and about and staying interested in current in the industry in which I am. IG: 30:11 I understood. PN: 30:11 So, if you are back to an entrepreneur, I am not sure in the world, because I have not started a company, I am the sole employee. I did not need to go to bankers to get investment money or venture capitalism, none of that. But, you know, not everyone could do it as I forget and you just reminded me, part of it is make sure if you have a good year, you do not spend like you had a good year, because if you have a bad year, you may need a nest egg and do not spend like a drunken sailor. IG: 30:48 Yeah, that is good advice [laughs] for anyone. So-so you know this is your career path, and you mentioned that you have a daughter, and tell us, you know, a little bit about your family. PN: 31:09 I got married late in my late to mid-40s, first time, and my wife and I, within a year, had a kid, which was almost surprising. We are both old, biological standpoint, my daughter's 19. She is a sophomore, and following the family tradition, she also transferred schools. She started out at Bryn Mawr, spent a year for a variety of reasons. It was not a great fit, took a semester off, and now is quite local at Brandeis, and is studying public health. Was so interesting to me things that were interesting to me in college. And she is interested in Planned Parenthood and women's sociology, women's health care, that kind of thing. And it happens to be really the right place for it. It is a very strong program. There is social policy, health policy and all that. So, I have got this 19-year-old daughter, my wife also had transferred from one college, to another [Irene laughs] and they are the two of them are right now in New York, going to Broadway shows. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 32:25 Do you- what are some of your- have you kept up with your interest in literature? Have you- PN: 32:31 Yeah-yeah to [crosstalk] some degree IG: 32:33 [inaudible] hobbies- PN: 32:35 As far as reading--I am a bigger newspaper reader than the book reader. Although I am in actually right now, for the first time, I am in two book clubs. My wife and I are in a book club together, and then the local library has a quote guys book club, and that is been great. I love it. [inaudible] I know, yeah, we might be 15, 10, to 15 people. IG: 32:59 That is quite a number. PN: 33:01 Maybe, yeah. And depending on the book, more people come and the librarian is a guy, which is also somewhat rare, I think. IG: 33:08 Yeah. PN: 33:10 It is a neighboring town, Errington, and it is great. I do not know these people outside of the group, but we all really enjoy it. There is a man do not have a lot of these outlets. I am not a sports guy. I do not go to a bar and watch a football game. I pay not to, in fact. So that is a social outlet. I do not care about this bonding about sports. So, this is great. That is a variety of books. There are librarians who find it interesting. IG: 33:41 Yes, what are some of the books that you have [crosstalk] PN: 33:44 It is a range. Some of them are we just read the memoir of South African comedian- IG: 33:56 Coitzi. Coitzi? PN: 33:58 No, he is on American TV. Oh, I love the guy. It will come back to me. I forgot. IG: 34:04 Yeah. PN: 34:05 Scary. [laughs] IG: 34:08 It will not come back in five minutes. PN: 34:09 Trevor Noah. IG: 34:10 Oh, I see that is right. Oh, yes, really, course. PN: 34:13 You have not read it. IG: 34:13 Yeah. PN: 34:14 Listen to it on books on tape. IG: 34:15 I have seen him on TV. PN: 34:16 It is wonderful to listen to. IG: 34:18 Yeah. PN: 34:18 More than even read because he is- does the reading. IG: 34:21 He does the reading as well. I actually, I love books on tape. PN: 34:24 This is, this is a great one so that we have occasional military history, although that is not a focus. Novels, just a range of things, one-one book. One of the best books was a book called The Boys in the Boat. Which Have you heard of that huge bestseller about the sport of rowing crew, but it is historical, because it talks about the 1936 Olympics in Germany? IG: 34:54 Yes, of course. PN: 34:55 So that was very interesting book. Terrific book. And I suggested a book. It was sort of my turn to suggest a book, I think, for July, called the Fish that Ate the Whale, about the- this immigrant who started pedaling bananas, and that was enabled because of telegraph its whole story wound up from buying essentially damaged goods bananas that were discounted because they were about to be too ripe, wound up as the president of United Fruit Company, which owned half of Central America. Very interesting story. Yeah, fascinating. So that is one I suggested. It will be in a couple of months. And then the one we Thursday, I guess that is tomorrow. Is the book club, and it is a book. It is upstairs, hopefully, I better all go up and get it, so just a variety of books. And that is- that is been- IG: 35:55 That is wonderful because, that is wonderful because not I think it is not, not everyone really gives time to reading. Not everybody gives time into- do you think that you know there, that you know this love of literature, clearly, you have a love and interest? Do you think that there is any connection between the literature- PN: 36:22 Come to think of it, those are the classes I remember. IG: 36:25 Yes-yes. PN: 36:26 Absolutely. In fact, if this guy had answered the phone, I was going to tell him that this retired professor become a college president. And my wife is an influence on me and my daughter too. They are speed readers. They read an enormous amount. I have never seen anything like it. My parents were readers, so it was not- IG: 36:43 It is part of your family. PN: 36:45 It is part of it. My father was a big reader, and in the newspapers which my wife does not read, so she reads more books I am interested in. I read three papers. The newspapers are practically going out of business, except for people like me, which is bad, because I am not young, you know, and they are the only thing that keeps the government honest at this point, you know, with investigative journalism. IG: 37:10 Yeah, I agree. I agree. And so-so, you know- PN: 37:17 I am going to run and get- IG: 37:20 So, we are back to talking with Philip Nachman, and we are going to talk a little bit about the political climate, the political issues that were predominant in your college experience. PN: 37:37 The Vietnam War was key, and it was raging still. Uh, in my case, I was in the first cohort of people who were, quote, eligible for the draft lottery, which was a somewhat more fair way of drafting people. And I had the distinction of being number five in the draft lottery. You do not want to be five, you want to be 360 so while I was in your while I was in Binghamton, I was called up for physical because I had such a low number, and I had to take the bus to Syracuse, where there was an Army induction center. I thought I thought I would get out for some physical reasons, but a lot of other people on that trip were, I am sure, sick with anxiety. So, I went to the physical, took the Greyhound, and I wound up getting what is called a 4f of physical deferment. So, I did not have to go, but I was considering my options. I was not interested in being shot at by the Vietnamese or shooting them, because, frankly, I did not care about them. They did not do nothing to me. I did not need to do nothing to them, right? But the times were roiling with Vietnam protests. Certainly, I am not sure how much on the campus. I kind of do not remember that, but it was, you know, complete. Well, not the voc- the vocal students were more on the left than the right, but not everyone else, I am sure. I mean, it was a, it was a town in upstate New York, in the county I came from, was very Republican. That whole capital district was very Republican. And I am, I do not know what, what Binghamton's landscape was at the time in terms of national politics, but I am assuming it is somewhat conservative. I mean, upstate New York could be transplanted to the Midwest. It has got essentially nothing to do with metropolitan New York. IG: 39:33 A lot of America, I think. PN: 39:35 Yeah-yeah. IG: 39:39 So-so, you know, so you said you do not remember any protests. PN: 39:45 I am sure there were. IG: 39:46 But what about your friends? What-what was the general mood? PN: 39:51 Oh, the general mood was anti-Vietnam, anti-establishment. Long hair. Do not trust anyone over 30. I mean, this was 1970. You know, get stoned. IG: 40:04 What kind of music did you listen to? PN: 40:06 Grateful Dead. I think they actually, it was a famous concert at Binghamton. IG: 40:12 I think it is (19)68. PN: 40:15 I was not, I think it might, yeah, they were still, I did not, I was not there at the time, people were still talking about it. Leo Kottke, I remember going to one of his concerts. He is a fantastic 12 string guitarist. There were others. I went up to Cornell for a concert with some group Traffic. I think it was called. Yeah, something like that. IG: 40:33 Remember the Nixon impeachment, the trials. IG: 40:35 That was in (19)73 impeachment trials, were not they? IG: 40:41 Yes, yeah. PN: 40:43 And I think I already had, already I had already graduated, because, as I recall, that was the fall of (19)73 and I graduated. I took, I was on the five-year plan because I had transferred. And actually, my second semester in Binghamton, I really was not quite sure what I was that I wanted to be there all the time. And through this major that I created, I petitioned for an independent study on the American Crafts movement, which was a hippie movement. At the time, people were dropping out, moving to Vermont or somewhere, and making pottery or building furniture. And there was an anthropology professor, Daniella Weinberg. I think her name is, who I asked if she would be my sponsor on this because I was looking at it from sort of an anthropological perspective or a sociological perspective with no brilliant framework, I will have you know, but so I literally hitchhiked around New England, talking to American kids who were, quote, American craftsmen. I wound up living for a while in a commune in the Berkshires. I was hitchhiking, and someone picked me up and going around to different crafts people. It was a very interesting semester. I mean, literally, I was hitchhiking. [crosstalk] You could do that. IG: 42:01 It was safe to do it when- PN: 42:02 It was-was for me. IG: 42:06 Yes-yes. PN: 42:07 So, it did not even occur to me that was no nothing, no big deal. So, I did that. IG: 42:13 Was it like living on a commune as part of your thesis experiment? It was a thesis or? PN: 42:19 Just started. I read to write a paper. I see, I do not know where the paper so, so it was probably only four credits, so I did not get the 16 credits, or whatever a semester is worth. So, I wound up graduating in (19)73 not in (19)72 I got out of high school in (19)68 if I had gone straight through. And that was fine. So, I was in no hurry to be an adult anyway. So that worked out perfectly, which was not uncommon in those days. I mean, IG: 42:51 To prolong your [crosstalk] PN: 42:52 To prolong your, prolong your adolescence. It was not my education. So, yeah, I am clear on that again, if I were a pre-med major or an engineering major, I would want to keep going. I would not be wandering around as much. So- IG: 43:11 So, what did you learn about this experience? Your anthropological study? PN: 43:15 Well, the professor had me read de Tocqueville on America having to do with American the American spirit and democracy, which was a big experiment when de Tocqueville wrote that a total experiment. When did you write it? 1789, or something like that? Well, what was funny about it is, I wound up in New Hampshire, standing in someone's yard. People would just invite you to stay and this so I met some guy who forgot if there was a potter or whatever it was. His father was a producer on the Today Show in Manhattan. PN: 43:52 No-no. [crosstalk] become- PN: 43:53 Back then this kid's father, he dropped out of college to do this. His father was a producer on the Today Show. So, it is just kind of not that the father's famous, but it is just sort of funny. Here are these middle class, or probably upper middle class, or beyond, in his case, who are dropping out, not going the straight and narrow, not working for IBM as a salesman, but doing this and that. Those were the times. Those exactly what the times were, I do not know that it directly had to do with Vietnam, but it did have to do with, I think, not being all that impressed or interested in just following the normal course of events. Because look what it got us. PN: 44:18 Exactly, breaking cultural norms and- PN: 44:40 That was the norm, was to break a cultural norm. So, in fact, the cultural norm was to have long hair, to smoke pot, to maybe have an organic garden. That was in that school. That was the norm. It would not have been the norm at other schools, perhaps, but on that ilk, in that era, that. You know, Buffalo was the same. IG: 45:01 So, you remember watching the American family? PN: 45:06 Yes, in fact, one of my professors actually a guy named Richard, Richard Young [James Young], who was a political science professor at Binghamton, that was our that was the centerpiece of our class, was good for remembering an American family. It was a screwed-up family. The kid- IG: 45:25 Very interesting. PN: 45:26 Oh, very interesting. I mean, pretty rare. One-one of the kids came out as gay, which was rare with the father. You know, the father, the mother accepted it. I am not sure the father did. The parents got divorced, as you remember, the father sold mining equipment to Australian mining places. So Young- that was sort of interesting, too. I had forgotten about that class looking at the structure of American society, and it was some would say it was dissolution. I mean, that family became dissolved. I have forgotten about his siblings. I think he was the eldest. He had a younger sister. I do not remember. I think there were three. Think there were three, three kids, but yeah, that was really of that era. And you know, the teachers, Young and Starobin, they may have been radicals, but academically, you could not just hand in some crummy paper. They were, they were serious about their work. IG: 46:26 Have you read their scholarship afterwards? Or, you know, they were, they producing scholarship of this period. PN: 46:34 They were young guys. They were very young. That might have been the first. They were in their early 30s, and then Young, I do not know whatever happened to him, but I later lived in Berkeley and looked him up. He was living in Palo Alto, and we went out for dinner or something, because he was a young guy, still sort of related. You know, I thought I related to him because he was only eight years older than I was, or something like that. I tend to sort of remember people and hold on to them. And there was a TA in might have been in an American literature class. I am not sure which one literature of the American city with a guy named Milton Kessler, wonderful guy who he also had an influence on me. In a TA in one of the literature courses. Later went on to he was doing his PhD. He wound up having a career in prep schools, which was sort of when you cannot get a job in academia. You do that. So, if you scratch the surface of any fancy prep school or all these PhDs. And then I about 10 years ago, I looked him up. We had nice conversation, and he was interesting because of an assignment he gave us. I had never heard of this assignment. Compare the same work as literature. I think it was this and in its movie form or something, that I found the most creative thing in the world. I had never heard of such a thing. PN: 48:00 Yeah, it was very creative. I thought he was a terrific young teacher. So, I had, I was happy with my professors as I recall, at least the ones I recall. Let us put it that way, which is good. I do not want to think of the bums. I am thinking of the ones that I that I enjoyed. And there was a certain amount of academic freedom to be able to petition this academic board and do this independent study, you know, the create your own major, and then even to take that semester off and get a sponsor, it worked out. I am sure my parents were worried sick. It worked out. PN: 48:00 At the time, it was probably [crosstalk] IG: 48:36 And, you know, and yet, over time you-you and I think that people of your generation return to very establishment type of jobs well after this, this period of great freedom and experimentation- PN: 48:55 Yeah-yeah. Well, you know, some may have become artists if there were artists to begin with, which that helps. Some you know one guy my roommate is a real estate developer in California, I think, pretty successful. Another one of these guys that shared an apartment with me became a physician, so they may have been a little more focused than I. so yeah. I mean, people ultimately need to make a living, of course, and some people- IG: 49:30 So, you know, from the vantage point of now, how do you look back on that period of, you know, breaking norms and going to communes and exploring, and this period of great experimentation [crosstalk] PN: 49:48 Personally, for me, for me, personally, it was fun and it was not very taxing, which might have been part of why I wanted to do it. But when I think back on it, there was a tremendous amount of social disorganization and dismay. Do not do not trust your elders. Look at going back to Vietnam. It was terrible. I mean, it was absolutely horrendous. What was going on and it largely kids in college were personally untouched, because it was a poor person's war. If you were in college, you got a deferment. If you knew someone, you got in the National Guard, as did my as did my older brother, because my father knew somebody. So, as I think of my high school class, and I was probably at a class of 400 none of my friends were in the army. When I look at the yearbook, or there is a like a website for my high school, and I see who was in the army and who was not, it was not the kids whose parents were college educated. No shock, you know, to me. So, it was not an equitable war. In a sense, there was a complete waste of life, terrible waste of life. And people knew that, and that is why all this social foment. Yeah, I do remember a march downtown in Binghamton, some anti-war March. IG: 51:11 But how do you think, for example, your generation, because of that experience, was different from your parents' generation? You probably looked at the world very differently. PN: 51:20 Oh, absolutely. My father was in the army, in the US Army, when I was raving and ranting about the Vietnam War once, and this and that. And he said, you know, how do we put it? Some people are patriots. He was not necessarily talking about himself, but he was saying, do not be so judgmental, you know. And he knew what it was to leave a wife and go in the army, drafted at age 34 which was not fun to be in basic training when you are 34 and everyone else is 18. He is already out of college 10 years. You know, it was, he did not get hurt or anything, but it was certainly a sacrifice. And he knew plenty of people in his company that died, or just people who sacrificed. So, he looked at it differently, even though he was a lifelong Democrat, I do not know what he felt about the Vietnam War. Probably in the end, he got disgusted by it, as most people who were not complete apologists wound up doing as the truth came out. I do not think we ever had heated discussions. I would rave and write naively, and this was a conservative Republican town I grew up in, so it certainly affected the air I did not know at Binghamton, I did not know necessarily, any veterans who may have come back. One thing that absolutely has stuck in my mind, when I was at Hofstra, there was a guy on my floor who was a veteran, and he was there on the GI plan, probably. So, he was older and more, certainly more mature and older than these freshmen. He was stuck with on us, poor guy, and we were playing in the hallway. We were throwing a football or pitch and catch or something, and someone missed. His door was open. He was at literally the end of the hall. The ball went into his room. He ducked the one under his desk like a grenade. I mean, I could practically cry now, when I think about it, it was so traumatic. Was just a baseball and but can you [crosstalk] traumatic this- IG: 53:32 This treated PTSD. PN: 53:34 Yeah, which I never asked him about his experience with this poor guy. I am thinking, what something I never lived through. It is what I do not know about. I am thinking, wow, I think he was rattled. IG: 53:47 Right. I think that studies of PTSD came to light because of the Vietnam War. PN: 53:52 Yeah. I mean, think of the drug addiction and alcoholism that came out of it. I mean, World War Two had its trauma on people too, but there were not drugs to addict, generally, other than booze, you know? I hope that guy is okay. So, I did not really know many people who lived through that, necessarily. IG: 54:19 It is in some way you are saying that, you know, do not be judgmental, because the experience of even the people that you are well, you are not opposing them, but you know they are participants in a movement that you oppose. PN: 54:20 Yeah. IG: 54:23 You know that their-their experience is- PN: 54:28 But I do not know that I was that mature in that time. [crosstalk] I would have, would I have quote, defaced the flag? Probably not. It is just a difficult time. And Binghamton was very lefty. So those who were, quote, pro war. I did not talk. I did not know about it that, you know, they probably kept, maybe they kept a low profile. I do not know. I did not get involved in it, you know, I did not get involved with them. I do not know. I was not terribly political. I mean, I knew I, you know I would vote, and I know how I voted, and all of that. I had my feelings, but I was not marching, or I probably did once or twice, but it was not a big part of my life. IG: 55:30 And throughout your life, you-you were not political. I mean- PN: 55:36 I was, oh, I am very, I am very aware of current events. I always vote. I think once in my life, I did not and felt terrible about it because I missed a date or something. I was American Studies major to not, of course, care about it would be remarkable to me. You know, in the current climate, I am disgusted. And actually, I have with my wife's urging, she is, she is, she thinks more than I do, that mass protest movements have an effect. So that we went to the anti-gun rally two weeks ago. I think it was in Boston. It was all over the country. It went to the women's rally and all that. And some of it, I think, is, I do not know how useful it is, especially in this state, because this state always votes to the left and the legislators and all that. So, it is like, who are you complaining to complain in Arizona or in western Pennsylvania? I do not know what it means here, you know? Yeah, it is disheartening. I mean, it is sort of like the Nixon era in a way, with the corruption and the cynicism on the part of the people in power. IG: 56:43 But there are probably lessons from, you know, I am sensitive about the time that I have been keeping you but I think that, you know, the (19)60s have something to teach this generation about, social organizing, protest, do not you think? PN: 57:01 Would hope, well, it shows that it can make a difference. Vietnam eventually stopped huge marches. Johnson was in the White House covering his ears because he had to literally covering his ears getting sick over it. Yeah, it is going to have an effect. And maybe, maybe these teenagers who have organized the anti-gun rally will have an effect. I certainly hope so. The really small number of-of fundamentalist Christians and NRA members have been hijacked from it being a sportsman's club that taught about gun safety to being a shell for an industry, it is disgusting. So maybe these kids will have an effect. I certainly hope so. IG: 57:46 I hope so too. PN: 57:47 Yeah. IG: 57:52 Any-any concluding remarks that you have, any-any-any advice that you have for you know, students, young people listening to this interview and thinking of what to do with their lives and how to plan their careers. PN: 58:09 Well, if you do not know what you what you want to do, it is hard to plan. If you do know what you want to do and you are definitely going to go to graduate school, yeah, study hard and get into the grad school of your choice. But if you are not that focused necessarily on a technical career, which is what rolls the roost right now, take courses out of your comfort zone. Take an art history class, take a music appreciation class, take something that you will live with, sort of like play a lifelong sport, not football, learn tennis. You know that if it is a liberal arts education, think of what that means and use it because you can enjoy it for the rest of your life. I mean, sure, get a career. Figure out how to make a living, become a technical expert, if that is what you want to be on something or other, or be a high school English teacher, if that is what float you know floats your boat, no question. Or librarian or a development officer. So, advice would be, take advantage if you are at a. at a Binghamton or any other liberal arts school, take advantage of the fact that it is a broad menu, and if there is a faculty member that you admire go to their office hours, they will appreciate it. You may learn something. They may help you get out of your locked out car like Robert Starobin [inaudible]. One thing I failed to remember. I did not forget it; you did not ask. I had an interesting experience in that I, quite coincidentally, wound up renting an old farm on the top of Bun Hill Road, if you know where that is, right. I was having my car fixed at some gas station on closer to downtown. And I needed a ride back to the school. Some lady was getting gas, and she was going to be heading back toward the campus. And I said, "Are you going by the school?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "Can I have a ride?" This woman gave me a ride in those days people would do. And we chatted a bit. And she was living on this old farm that she said. I said, "Oh, that sounds really nice." She said, "Well, my husband and I are moving. Do not say anything to the landlord, but maybe you would like to rent it." So, I rented this farm. Old place was not being farmed, but this place went literally on the top of Bun Hill Road with a lot of acreage, broken down, old farmhouse for $100 a month, three-bedroom, three-bedroom place, and found met some guy in the parking lot who is my friend to this day, who said, "Yeah, that sounds like fun, yeah, why do not we do that together?" And his was common at the time. He had just gotten back from traveling in the Middle East, people used to go to go through Europe with a backpack. And he said, "You know, I would like to get goats. I saw a lot of goats in Lebanon." I said, "All right, let us get goats." So, we did dairy goats. We had three or four goats, and it was fun. Then we had an organic garden, and got credit for it. You could pull this act. There was a geography, geography professor, Ed Van Derval [Joseph VanRiper]. I think his name was something like that. He was willing to if we took, kept the journal and took notes, we got four credits crazy on raising, on having an organic farm. So, the guy down the road had a plow, and we- was a big enough plot that we had. We paid him to plow it for us, and we grew stuff. And we had this organic, I would call it a farm. We had a garden, a large garden, and that was fun. And the property still had some plum trees that were bearing fruit, and there were- IG: 1:01:55 How wonderful. PN: 1:01:56 And there were apple trees all over the place. I collected apples and brought them to the cider mill and Endicott and had them pressed and then sold them on the campus. IG: 1:02:07 It was fun. So, you were part of this. PN: 1:02:10 I was part of the hippie [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:10 But part of, you know, maker, I do not know that it was maker is now. PN: 1:02:18 That is now, that is making. IG: 1:02:20 Yeah, sort of, you know, yeah, back to the line. PN: 1:02:24 It is back to the land thing. IG: 1:02:25 And but that you got credit for this at college. IG: 1:02:28 Yeah, it is pretty amazing at a legitimate college and all that. So, it goes back to that American Studies thing I did when I was hitchhiking around talking to craftsmen and all that, that was really a back to the land movement. I so to an extent, while in college, I did that, actually, I have a picture to show you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Nachman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nachman, Philip ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Phil Nachman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:50 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23ac4353d0f294dc4c4ec7c642c9d908.mp3 11b1bc05c8e1b3572aed56648abdee86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynne Federman Year of Graduation 1974 Biographical Text For 30 years, Lynn successfully guided institutions under regulatory enforcement actions and helped create and implement anti-money laundering programs. At Harpur, she managed the student-run radio station, WHRW. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Lynne Federman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, hello. This is Lynne Federman. LF: 00:06 Hi. My name is Lynn Fetterman. We are sitting here in South Boston, Massachusetts, and I am going to talk about my time at SUNY Binghamton. I am 64 years old. I graduated in 1974 I started in September 1970. IG: 00:29 Thank you, so, Lynn, maybe we can begin by your telling us where you grew up and who your parents were. LF: 00:41 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were Anne and Murray Fetterman. We lived in Brooklyn my whole life, until we moved to Clifton, New Jersey, where I went to high school. But we had a house in upstate New York, so I was very familiar with upstate New York, and I wanted to go to Binghamton because I knew it was a great university and It was reasonably priced. IG: 01:16 Before we before we discuss your college years, tell us, give us a little bit of background about your family, what they did, where they were from, whether they encouraged your education. LF: 01:34 So my dad was he had his own little business. My mom stayed at home until we were in high school, when she went to work for Peugeot. Their parents, all four of my grandparents, emigrated from Poland, came through Ellis Island. My mom and dad both grew- well my mom grew up in the Lower East Side, and my dad grew up in Brooklyn. And education was greatly encouraged, though it is true that although they encouraged me to go to the best college I could go to, the money was really for the boys my younger brothers. So it was really understood that if there was money for an Ivy League college, that would be for the boys. IG: 02:31 Did they go through an Ivy League college? LF: 02:32 Um, let us see, yeah, my next brother went to Rochester, and my brother after that, I think, went to Hobart for a short time. I think. I do not know. I did apply to Cornell, maybe for scholarship. I did not get in to Cornell undergrad. So I do not know what would have happened if I had gotten in, because I know there was not money to go there, and Binghamton was so reasonably priced, and because we had the house upstate, I got the in-state tuition. IG: 03:03 Did you get a regent scholarship? Do you remember? LF: 03:05 I think I did. I do not remember exactly. IG: 03:09 So did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study, or were you just attracted by the liberal arts? LF: 03:18 I like the liberal arts in general, but I distinctly remember not really knowing what I wanted to do, but thinking my choices were limited to law or medicine, for some reason, that was my choice for my family, and I did not really like medicine. So I remember distinctly standing in front of the post office boxes in Binghamton, where the student had their post, opening it up and getting my LSAT scores, and knowing that I could go to a good law school. And they did end up going to Cornell Law so I drove from Binghamton to Ithaca that summer to go to Cornell Law School. IG: 03:59 What-what-what are some memorable courses that you took at Harpur College? It was- LF: 04:07 Yeah, I went to Harpur College. I would say my coursework was not as memorable as my extracurricular activities, but I did love my psychology courses. IG: 04:18 Do you remember- LF: 04:19 I do not remember the professor's name, but I did some research for him with mice. That is what I remember, and that was a lot of fun. IG: 04:27 Do you remember what the research? LF: 04:29 I do not remember what we were looking at, but I felt like I was doing some kind of more advanced research for an undergrad. He was doing a lot with graduate students, but he let me do some work as an undergrad, but I really spent more time most of my career at Binghamton, in my memory, was at the radio station, WHRW, so I had a show, and it was a it was a soft rock show, folk rock and. I remember distinctly broadcasting, practicing in front of the mic, picking songs with albums. You had to play the albums like a DJ. I was a DJ, and then becoming more and more involved with the radio station, meeting my husband there, dating the guy who was the-the general manager before me, who is Eric Logan, felt he was the general manager. And then he graduated, I think, after my freshman year. But I started at Binghamton. I was 16, so that was young. I was very-very, young. And what I really remember is orientation, pre orientation, we went camping, which I do not think I had ever gone camping nearby, like maybe on the campus we had, we had pre orientation, camp out. IG: 05:54 Overnight camp ? LF: 05:56 Overnight, yeah, but in my memory, it was near-near the dormitories. Was it Hingham? Hingham? What is the name of the dorms up there? IG: 06:09 So what was, do you remember? What was the point of this- LF: 06:14 Orientation? IG: 06:15 Orientation, well, together and understand, but, but doing it outdoors? LF: 06:20 I think so you can make friends. IG: 06:22 I see, I see. And you did? LF: 06:24 And I did. I made friends. I made got met my first boyfriend there. So that was nice. So then I had a boyfriend, and I had my first roommate, who was so different from me, and you know, she was from the Midwest, she-she was from a military family and we are still friends today. Yeah, I am going to go see her in California. IG: 06:45 Oh, that is lovely. That is lovely. So it was, you know, a broadening kind of experience. LF: 06:55 It was completely different from anything I had ever experienced, but I was extremely diligent. I do not think I missed a class, and my view was, and still is, with my children, if you are paying for it, you might as well take all the classes. So I know I do not think I skipped a class the whole time I was there. Maybe I did, if I was really sick, and I was sick at one point, I was in the infirmary for a month with pneumonia, Yeah. But that, I think, is the only time I miss class. What? IG: 07:25 What was the campus like those days? Was it pretty rural, you know- LF: 07:33 In my mind it was rural. Yeah, I have not been back in quite a number of years, but I remember the last time I was up. I do not remember it. Possibly it was 30 years ago, when my son was little. We brought him back, we took him to the radio station, and he was a little baby. And I thought it was built up then, 30 years ago. So I cannot imagine what it is like. I am trying to get up there this spring. So it is much more built up. Yeah, I would say there was Woods everywhere surrounding the whole campus. IG: 08:07 There still are there. It is a very wooded area. They are peripheral campuses. So you know, what were your- how did you stumble into the radio station, not having had prior experience. LF: 08:23 I am trying to remember how I got there. I think I literally stumbled in looking for some activity to do. And, you know, hanging out at the Student Center was fun. And then I think I stumbled upon, I do not know, the first time I entered the radio station, but then it was my life, and I remember when I was running for general manager. I just remember, like, just roaming around various dormitories, trying not to pay attention while people were voting, and then someone, I guess we did not have cell phones, but somehow, I called in and I found out that I had become the general manager, and that was a big experience, really. IG: 09:06 How old were you? But what-what- LF: 09:08 It was my senior year. So I started when I was 16. [inaudible] so I was between 19 and 20. IG: 09:16 Very young. And how large was the radio staff? LF: 09:20 Dozens, in my recollection, were dozens of people. IG: 09:23 What kind of- LF: 09:23 And they were much more professional type of DJs, radio people at that time. But I think I was the only one who wanted to handle the business end and, you know, get the money work on the budget, deal with the people. But that really gave me a grounding in, you know, the huge budgets I handled later in my life and the amount of people I managed that, that was the grounding there. IG: 09:50 That is very much [inaudible] so, you know, it is, it is, it is actually very remarkable that you were attracted to that. End of the radio enterprise, right? Because most people want to be DJs. LF: 10:06 Yeah. I also had a little show, but it was very terrifying being on the air for me. So I did not, you know, I loved it, and I was scared of it. Yeah, some people are natural. They just love to talk on the radio. But that was not my was not my main thing. IG: 10:21 What is it then? LF: 10:23 Like now, I like the socializing. IG: 10:26 So what was your little show? You said- LF: 10:29 it was a folk it was folk rock. I am trying to remember the name of it, but my theme song, I think, was Brown Eyed Girl. I think that that was the theme song, and it was fun. But, you know, I was really into having people do the news and special projects and, you know, we did have a lot of classical programming. But again, I have not been back. You know, I stay in touch with some of the people, but have not been able to go to any of the reunions. Maybe I will go now. IG: 11:04 We hope you do. What was tell us a little bit about the programming and what, what role you played in deciding- LF: 11:14 Oh, we had meetings. We wanted to have public broadcast programming. We could bring in shows real and you know, NPR shows, right that time, we could import them and use them, but we tried to have our own reporting, if possible, campus reporting, local reporting, but it was hard, because she had to get kids who to be reporters, right? Well, mostly it was music. IG: 11:37 It was much music- LF: 11:38 Jazz, classical, rock. IG: 11:41 What kind of what kind of reporting did you do? It was so it was Binghamton, LF: 11:47 Yes, local campus. IG: 11:49 Campus. Do you remember stories? [crosstalk] Do you remember stories? [crosstalk] Do you think that what was- LF: 11:57 I think it lost Because we did not record any of it. IG: 12:00 You did not record any of it? LF: 12:01 Yeah, I do not think it occurred to us. Or if we did, I would have no idea where they are. No idea. Do you know the name Ron Drumm? Excuse me, Ron Drumm. IG: 12:11 No, that I have not encountered the name. LF: 12:13 Yeah, he, he was around for years in in my recollection, he possibly was- had graduated while I was there, and then stuck around for a long time in Binghamton. And I think they let him stay on the radio. Ron drum, D, R, U, M, M. I could try to find him for you. IG: 12:35 What were some of the issues in that you were talking about? What was in the air, politically, culturally. I mean, you were playing music, which is so much a part of the- LF: 12:46 Yeah, I think [crosstalk] focus, right, a huge focus. I do not remember being, you know, politically active in terms of any wars, or where we were in terms of overseas actions or the Vietnam War. I mean, in high school, I remember protesting the Vietnam War. I do not remember doing anything in Binghamton, trying to remember when it was over. When was the war over? IG: 13:16 In the early- LF: 13:18 In the (19)60s? IG: 13:19 No in the- LF: 13:20 (19)70s. IG: 13:20 No, the (19)70s. LF: 13:21 So we must have been doing some of that, but I really do not have a recollection. I remember working for McCarthy, but that was high school. IG: 13:31 Working for? LF: 13:32 McCarthy. IG: 13:33 The 20- LF: 13:35 No, when he was running for president, Gene McCarthy was running for President. IG: 13:40 That would make sense. LF: 13:41 Yeah, that is the political stuff. But I do not remember political we were a bit removed up there in Binghamton. I think we all felt it. It was such a- IG: 13:50 But you were New York City kids. LF: 13:52 All New York City kids, you know- IG: 13:54 With the exception of your roommate from the Midwest. LF: 13:57 Right-right. But these were New York City born and bred, kids. IG: 14:03 So, you know, you were kind of more in touch- LF: 14:06 And she, and she might have been, most recently from Long Island. IG: 14:09 I see. I see. LF: 14:10 That is my roommate. IG: 14:12 You know, you were in touch and, and I am just, I am just trying to get a-an understanding of the climate, of the cultural climate, what, you know, you were playing this music, and did you have any- LF: 14:28 We were, I think we were, we went to we went to class. I think there was a fair amount of marijuana. You know, I smoked a little bit, not a lot, but we were post Woodstock, right, just after Woodstock, so it was kind of, I think it was still kind of Hippieish. IG: 14:49 Yeah, you were caught up by that fervor of the late (19)60s. You know, the you were the tail end of that (19)60s generation. And all that it represented. Did you buy into it? LF: 15:03 Absolutely. IG: 15:04 So what-what- LF: 15:04 Absolutely. IG: 15:05 What did it represent to you? LF: 15:09 Really, a feeling of optimism that we could accomplish a lot if we just wanted to, and we could have fun at the same time. But for me, I felt like I had to work hard. We all felt we had to work hard. Pretty much everyone I knew got real jobs, good jobs, corporate, academic, teaching, medicine, law, these were the jobs we got. You know, I feel like the generation now, my kids, 50-50, you know, friends, you know, some of them really want good jobs. Some want to work off the grid now, but I felt like we all felt like we had to get real jobs with real paychecks. IG: 15:56 I think that is more true of Binghamton students, rather than the interim generation. And do you think that in some sense, you know you said that you were optimistic and-and was your kind of youth culture bound up in music? Was, was that your way expressing [crosstalk] LF: 16:20 I think [crosstalk] to find the music. IG: 16:22 Rebelliousness as well? LF: 16:24 Yeah, I think it was defined by music. Maybe start for me, starting with Woodstock, because I was so young at Woodstock. IG: 16:30 And we would love to hear about your experience at Woodstock. LF: 16:35 So that summer, the summer of (19)69 I was a rising senior in high school, and when I was a junior in high school, I was accepted to Cornell's summer program, and I took organic chemistry, which I passed, but it pretty much told me I was not going to medicine, but I remember being in Ithaca and hearing that the site of Woodstock had changed from Woodstock, New York, to White Lake, New York to Max Yasgur's farm. And my house, my parents’ house upstate, was right next to White Lake, and I knew Max Yasgur's farm. And I said, “There is no way I heard it on the radio, thinking, oh man, there is nothing there. It is a cow pasture. They cannot have a rock concert, and there is no access. And I said, “But good for me, I can go, because I can walk from my house to Woodstock.” And that is, that is what we did at the end of the summer, when I left Ithaca, I went to-to near Monticello, which is White Lake. And Small Wood was the name of the town right next to White Lake where our house was since I was a little girl, and we probably had 25 people sleeping on our property, camping out friends and friends of friends, and that road that you see in the in the movie 17 B was just jammed, but all of the local residents worked together to support the crowd in terms of water and food. And it was, it was an it was like an invasion. And I think my father prohibited me from going, but I went anyway, and I had my girlfriend was with me, but we did it in a very nice way, because we could go in the morning, listen to the music all day, and then go home and not have to sleep in the mud, slept in my bed, ate my mother's food, and that was a lot a lot of fun. But my brothers also went. My little brother, I think was if I was 15, maybe he was 11, and he went with my brother, who was maybe 13, unsupervised. So he has written something about that, which is hysterical. IG: 18:55 I would love to see it, actually. LF: 18:56 Yeah, let me see if I can get it for you. I have not seen it in a long time, but I do not know if he is publishing it, but he cannot believe that our parents let him go at 11 to Woodstock. IG: 19:07 And then there was no and there was no prohibition of your younger brothers going. But yet your father had [crosstalk] LF: 19:15 Right. He must have changed his mind because, because I was going no matter. IG: 19:21 And he had no way of anticipating what, what was going to happen, what it would be. So, what did you see? LF: 19:27 [crosstalk] I saw all of, you know, all of the acts I saw, Joe Cocker, I do not remember a lot of the actual songs, and I was very happy I did not have to sleep there. It was kind of yucky and rainy and muddy. IG: 19:41 Did you like the music? LF: 19:43 I love them. I love that. I still love them. You know, I am not the kind of aficionado that you know my friends are. I still, I still love it. IG: 19:54 So you saw Joe Cocker. Do you remember who- which other singers you saw? LF: 19:58 I do not remember, you know, when I watched the movie, I remember, you know, I did not prep for this interview, but it was really, really fun. I mean, generally- IG: 20:09 1000s of-of young people. LF: 20:12 Hundreds of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s. IG: 20:16 Hundreds of hundreds. LF: 20:17 I mean, have you ever, did you ever seen the movie? IG: 20:19 Oh, yes, yeah. LF: 20:20 So I think so it is half a million strong. IG: 20:22 Half a million strong. This- that is remarkable. And was this, LF: 20:26 And it was all very- [crosstalk] IG: 20:27 True. Well, I mean, you are from New York City, so you have seen crowds before. You did not shy away from a crowd. LF: 20:32 Yes, this was unbelievable. It was literally Unbelievable. How many people there were and- IG: 20:39 And they were all young. LF: 20:41 Everybody was young. There was no in my-my recollection, there was nobody old. IG: 20:45 Did was that a life changing experience to be amidst so many young people, and they all stood for something, even if it was- LF: 20:53 It was love of rock and roll IG: 20:55 Articulated. LF: 20:56 Yeah, but it was something else, but it was positive. There was no, there was none of this kind of negativity that we have now in public discourse. IG: 21:06 Right, which is dark and- LF: 21:08 Dark and horrible. [crosstalk] Yeah. So in my mind, it was much, much more positive. IG: 21:13 Was there an idea that music maybe could change the world to a better place? LF: 21:17 Yeah, yeah, because it was so positive and fun, and really, really fun. I mean, that is what I am remembering, is that we just had so much fun, and I went back for the second day. I am trying to remember exactly who I heard, but I cannot. But, you know, I think that also set me on a course of wanting to see rock and roll the rest of my life. You know, so that I did not do as much as I could, because I had the kids, right, but I always wanted to, and then when the kids were older, you know, I went to see the Rolling Stones and Paul McCartney and Bruce Springsteen, of course. But no, I can distinctly remember seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan that I have a clear memory of in the (19)60s in my parents’ bedroom and just being mesmerized. IG: 22:09 Yes. LF: 22:09 Why? I have no idea of a completely mesmerized. IG: 22:12 What was the reaction that your parents had to them? LF: 22:15 They were fine about it. I mean, we were very I think in (19)64, I was 11, so they were not worried, or concerned. IG: 22:23 They were not worried or concerned as well. LF: 22:26 They were concerned about Woodstock, just in terms of fearing panic and stampede, because there were so many people knowing. And here is I have also a distinct memory of standing with my mother. My mother was very friendly with the doctor in White Lake. And I remember she and I were standing in the-the parking lot of the school in White Lake, the middle school, I think it was and waving down helicopters who were medevacking people out. You know, people have been sick or overdosed or- IG: 23:00 Overdosed, yeah. LF: 23:01 So I know she was working closely with the doctor at the time, just thinking in terms of Woodstock. IG: 23:08 But that did not happen- LF: 23:10 During- IG: 23:11 -on the first day. LF: 23:12 No-no, it was like the second or the third- IG: 23:14 And then they-they probably did not let you return on the third day, or- LF: 23:19 No, I remember going two days, not- IG: 23:20 Two days maybe not the third day. LF: 23:23 But it was, I know it was not scary for me. It was a lot of fun. Now, maybe I would be scared to go into a big, big, big crowd. IG: 23:33 You know, you-you could not have anticipated- LF: 23:34 I should go to the Women's March. IG: 23:36 What-what was that like? LF: 23:38 The Women's March here in Boston? IG: 23:40 Oh, this is just recently. LF: 23:41 Yeah, no, the Woman's March in January after Trump was elected. And every time I am in a big crowd like that, which is not often, I will think, "Oh, this is reminds me of Woodstock" Absolutely, especially if it has a positive energy to it. IG: 23:57 Good for you. And so feminism was, you know, an incipient kind of movement in the early (19)70s that I know. What was that- did that affect you directly? Do you feel during those years? LF: 24:15 Did I benefit from it? Absolutely. IG: 24:17 Yeah. LF: 24:17 Absolutely. IG: 24:19 But were you [crosstalk] LF: 24:20 But I never, yes, I was aware of feminism, but I also felt, maybe from my parents, you know, except for the money issue and the money, you know, goes through the boys, otherwise, I could do anything I wanted, you know. And I felt I could do anything I wanted. And I did, you know, with my career, I just kind of cut through a lot of the crap, and- IG: 24:42 Well tell us about that, and especially how you cut through the crap, because I think that- LF: 24:48 I ended up going to law school from the time in front of the box off the post office boxes in Binghamton, and seeing that I had a good LSAT score, which with my good enough grades would get me into law school. And I did get into Cornell Law. I said, I remember opening. I am going, "Oh, I can be a lawyer." I had no huge interest in being a lawyer, but then I got it, I grew the interest. So then I yeah, and I went to, I must have worked that summer in Binghamton. What did I do? I stayed in Binghamton the summer after senior year. So I must have done something. IG: 25:28 Were you working? LF: 25:29 I must have been working, maybe for a professor. I cannot remember exactly, because I remember packing my stuff. I did not go back to Jersey, packing up, driving the hour from Binghamton to Ithaca. IG: 25:44 Was it a world of difference taking [crosstalk] LF: 25:48 [crosstalk] an Ivy League school? Yeah-yeah. It was. It had a different vibe to it, completely different. But it was also law school, so it was much more serious. You know, I do not remember classes being a focus in Binghamton. I know I went to all of them, but, you know, can I really remember them? Not that much. If I went back, would I, you know, I, you know, youth is wasted on the young. You have heard that. So I wish I can go to Binghamton now, take courses there now when I would appreciate them more. But when I went to Cornell Law School, it was so tough, you know, then I just worked all the time. I did not do any extracurricular stuff the first year. The second year was a little better, and I worked. I remember, I got a job at Willard Straight Hall, which is the Student Center, and I was the manager of the student center. So I could, you know, student manager at night, so I could study, and I was in charge of all the undergraduates who were working there. So that was fun. IG: 26:56 So you, you enjoyed this managerial you got the taste of managing, from- LF: 27:03 From being a manager in Binghamton, [crosstalk] But also, I could study, and it was very quiet at the Student Center. IG: 27:09 That is what appealed to you. LF: 27:10 Yeah. And there were undergrads actually staffing the desks and rooms and the various activities. And I would just wander around every once in a while, and I was there if there was a crisis, an emergency, but mostly I could stay in the office and study for law school, which was so much work and so much reading, a lot of reading. IG: 27:28 Yeah, I could imagine I have friends who come to law school. So you were there for three years and LF: 27:38 And then I went right to New York. IG: 27:40 You went right- and tell us a little bit about this trajectory of your career, but also with a view to maybe mentioning the instances where you cut through the bullshit and how you did that, because that is informative. LF: 27:56 Well, in terms of feminism or just being, you know, just- IG: 28:00 I think it- LF: 28:01 -doing- IG: 28:01 -it goes hand in hand, right? Feminism and, LF: 28:04 Yeah-yeah, I did not feel maybe just because I was in the perfect year when they were opening up, you know, the law school for women, and then law firms were looking for women. IG: 28:15 Cornell opened its law school for women. LF: 28:18 No opening up the classes. More and more women were, I was not the first woman at Cornell. IG: 28:23 Of course. LF: 28:25 But I was there. I do not think there were 50 percent women in my class by any means. I think they are up to 50 percent now. IG: 28:32 And at that time they had, maybe- LF: 28:35 I would have [crosstalk]s it was more than a handful. [crosstalk] was not 50 percent but there were a number of women, but I did not feel like I was owed the woman. There were other-other girls there. I had a great roommate, also from New York, upstate New York. I am still friends with her, but we were very-very different. IG: 28:55 What part of the law that you studied? LF: 28:57 I just studied everything. IG: 28:58 Everything. LF: 28:59 The general [crosstalk] and then I wanted to do litigation, and I got a job coming out of law school, with the help of my law professors, I could not- I do not think I could maybe get a job all by myself. I got a summer job with the help of my professor--came down to New York, lived in New Jersey with my parents. One summer, I stayed in Ithaca, and I did research with a law professor on gambling that was fun and esoteric. So, you know, I have pretty strong views on gambling, which is, you know, attacks on the poor, big tax, especially casinos and lotteries, just rips off poor people. Really. It is horrible. IG: 29:42 I would love to hear about that. I never thought I would never and I do not gamble, but, you know, it is but LF: 29:50 Especially underprivileged, poor people will take their last dollar and buy a lottery ticket. IG: 29:54 I see, I see, in that way. LF: 29:55 -in the hope- IG: 29:56 Yes, in the hope. LF: 29:57 Hit it big. IG: 29:57 Of course, of course. LF: 29:58 About my view about gambling, and maybe I learned this from my professors, that you should take the dollar, put it in the toilet, have some fun while it swirls around. Have fun watching it go down the toilet, because that is the same as buying a lottery ticket. Chances of winning. And, you know, casinos just suck money out of people. So he was pretty anti-gambling, but he was working on gambling laws, and that was a lot of fun. And then I got a really good job, because I went to Cornell Law School, not because I was that smart, and also, with the help of my law professors, and I went to be a litigator. That was (19)77 and I did a couple of law firm jobs, (19)77 to (19)81. IG: 30:44 Where were they? LF: 30:46 Yeah, I was with a firm called Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, which is very white shoe, waspy and had a lot of fun there. Learned a lot about big litigations. But, you know, I was a kid. I was a tiny little kid still friendly with those people. And then I went to a very small firm because I knew I would not be a partner there called Hertzog, Calamari and Gleason; I was there for a couple years. That was also a lot of fun, but a lot of work. And then I knew I want to get married and have children, so it would be better to be in a bigger firm which had better policies for that. So around (19)81 I got married and went to a big law firm, and then had my first kid in (19)8- IG: 31:32 What was the big law firm? LF: 31:35 I am sorry, I went in house. I was at a big law firm first, then a little law firm, and then I went in house. That is what I meant in house counsel, meaning I worked for Chase, Manhattan Bank. IG: 31:45 Oh wow. LF: 31:46 So I was in the legal department of Chase, and I remember my grandmother up near Woodstock right when I told her I was thinking about taking this big job in you know, would not be as much money, but it would be an in a big corporation as a junior person in the litigation area, and she said, it is good to hitch your wagon to a big horse. IG: 32:12 That is, I have heard variations [inaudible] LF: 32:14 It is good to hitch your wagon to a big horse. So then- IG: 32:18 That is a great expression. LF: 32:19 Yeah. So then I was at Chase Manhattan Bank, which became JP Morgan Chase, and I was there 24 years and three months, IG: 32:27 That is my bank. LF: 32:28 That is your bank. That is a good bank. IG: 32:29 It is a very good bank. LF: 32:31 And I went from being the junior-junior person in litigation, and then I had a team, and we did nothing but subpoena compliance, which means the bank would get subpoenas, we would have to supply the records and the witnesses. So I did that for years, and then I started to get interest interested in money laundering, and I described it as I was doing the main work I was given. But on the side of my desk, I was helping the bank with money laundering problems, and I was studying the money laundering laws on my own because they were so interesting. And then there reached a point in time, you know, I started doing that in the (19)80s and the (19)90s, and then the late (19)90s, I went to the general counsel before September 11. September 11 is definitely a sticking point. You know, it is a mark, it is a demarcation. It is before and after. But before September 11, I went to General Counsel and said, "We do not have anyone who does anti-money laundering compliance all the other banks do. Why do not we?" And he said, I said, "Let us go to Washington. Let us hire like the head of the SEC and he can become the head of money laundering here." And he looked at me and he said, "I want you to do it." I had no interest or thought that I would do it zero. But he looked at me and said, "I want you to do it." I said, "I do not want to do it," because at that time, there was a big difference between being a lawyer, which had prestige and money being a compliance officer. You needed a law degree to be a lawyer. You needed a BA to be a compliance officer. You could be a lawyer, but you could be a compliance officer with a law degree, but you could not be a lawyer without a law degree. I said, "I do not want to do it." He said, "I want you to think about it." I thought about it. I said, "Well, if he wants me to do it, maybe I should do it." I came back and I said, "I want a big raise. I want." And he was very strict. His name is Bill McDavid. I said, "I want a big raise. I want a big title, and I want a big bonus." He said, "No-no-no, but do it for a year, and then we will talk," yeah, so I trusted him. IG: 34:42 Yes. LF: 34:42 I did it. I never looked back. And I became the head of it is called AML, anti-money laundering and terrorist financing in around 2000 and then we had September 11, and I was at my at my office on September 11, and I-I was an initial user of the Blackberry. Do you remember the Blackberry? IG: 35:05 Yes. LF: 35:05 So I was what was called a beta user because of my ex-husband’s business. So I was running from the towers and typing messages to my husband at the time, and that is published in the New York Times. You can look it up if you Google me, portions of my transcript were published in the time, so we can look it up now. I can actually send you the full transcript. IG: 35:28 Yeah, I would love to see it. LF: 35:29 Yeah. Do you want to take a little tiny break? Because I do not do it now. I will forget but have never looked at. Can I send it to you privately? IG: 35:39 Yes. LF: 35:41 Okay. [crosstalk] IG: 35:44 We were at 9/11/(2001). LF: 35:49 Running-running and typing. IG: 35:50 But prior to that, you were a compliance officer for your bank. LF: 35:56 So I was a compliance officer, and that is what I have been since then. So I was very lucky in my career that I had a good mentor who told me to do it. I did it because I trusted him. And I worked at Chase until another bank was in trouble for money laundering violations, and then I went there to the other bank, which was ABN AMRO Dutch Bank, and they were in so much trouble, and I helped them. And because they wanted me to leave Chase after 24 years and three months, just short of a pension, they gave me a significant incentive so that I could retire. After I worked there for three years, that was my first retirement. Then then then I retired and traveled, and then I got bored, then I went back to work, then I retired, then I got bored, and I went back to work, and that is how I ended up in Boston. IG: 36:49 What-what are, you know, the most important, you know, abilities to become a compliance officer for big banks. What-what has served you in doing this work? LF: 37:07 Being able to pay attention to detail and IG: 37:10 To financial detail? LF: 37:12 Not even well, detail of all kinds. I am not so great. I am, you know, people think I know how- about bank accounts--I know a little bit. I do not know that much about money, but I do know about managing people. You know, it is really important to be a good manager once you rise up in these levels. And I was quite senior, not just by age. And, you know, I think I did learn a lot of that in Binghamton. I have to say. It is a direct line. IG: 37:40 It was a direct line, and it was your first exposure to being- LF: 37:41 To being a manager, being responsible for a budget, creating a budget, implementing a budget, creating a plan, implementing a plan, a work plan, you know to do it before. You know now it is far more complex with many programs that are supposed to help you, but you know, we really had to learn from the ground up. We did back then. And now, you know that I was doing it for several big banks. It became easier and easier IG: 38:16 Well, and the people skills, I think, remain the same, or they become more refined, of course, over time. LF: 38:24 I do think you need people skills, and that brings a lot of people down if they because they do not have people skills. And it is just dealing with people, you know, I used to call them my day family and my night family, and I think I was kind of the same with everybody. I tried to always be true to my basic self, and same with my kids, husband, workers, bosses, judges, lawyers, everybody, try to be the same. IG: 38:51 Well, you must have had a very strong sense of self. LF: 38:55 You know such a strong sense of self, but a good sense of maybe right and wrong and how you should be, . I think, I do not know. I think so. And now I retired again. I think it is third or fourth time in May, and I am just doing volunteer work now for José Mateo Ballet Theatre, which is something I wanted to talk about that, because at the ballet. We say everyone has a dance story. And my dance story started in Binghamton. So my first roommate in 1970 when I started was Linda Berry. Still friendly with Linda. I am going to go see her in the spring, and later in the spring, in California, where she lives, she might be a good person to talk to. also. She has had a pretty interesting career. She went, you know, West, but when we were kids in Binghamton, she was a dancer, and she was part of the first dance troupe with Bill T. Jones. Do you know Bill T. Jones? IG: 40:00 Yes, he is a graduate, is not he? LF: 40:03 He is a graduate, and he is, of course, extremely famous, and he is a MacArthur Genius. But in the beginning it was Bill T. Jones and Arnie Zane, his partner--Arnie, has passed away many years ago, but his company is still call Bill T. Jones and Arnie Zane and Linda and another woman whose name I forgot, they recently had a reunion in Binghamton, but it was kept very quiet because they did not want a lot of press. And I think Bill did show up, but again, it was quiet because if Bill shows up, then there is a lot of press, because he is quite famous, and if you have ever seen him dance, it is amazing. And his company, you know, he is older now, so I do not think he I do not know if he dances. I saw him, spoke to him recently at a performance, but that really started my love of dance. And watching them dance was so amazing, just amazing. So then I became, you know, consumer of dance. I would go to dance performances in New York, and again, not so much when the kids were little, but then I could really indulge my desire. And a year and a half ago, I met Jose Matteo, who is the choreograph choreographer for Jose Matteo Ballet Theater in Boston. But that was just random. I was not looking for him. I met him at a party. He graduated from Princeton in (19)74 like I graduated from Binghamton in (19)74 and I said, I am going to retire again. I want to work with you. So I am on the board, and I do a lot of work, and that is where I have to go today, because we are getting ready. I am putting together a big fundraiser for him. And so now I go to a lot of dance. I went to 27--I worked for Jose 27 Nutcracker performances during the Christmas season. I took a day off, and I know this sounds crazy, I went to see the Nutcracker at the Boston Ballet. So the Boston Ballet is our main ballet company in Boston, kind of like American Ballet Theater, and it has, it has much greater budget, and it is a much higher level than Jose, but Jose really provides accessible, inclusive ballet, which I love, really, really love. So that is, that is how I am spending a lot of my time. And I have a big party coming up Thursday, but tonight, Boston Ballet, that is tomorrow. I wonder what I am going to and also, so I do tend to overdo dance right now. Alvin Ailey was just here. You know Alvin Ailey? IG: 42:41 Yes, of course. LF: 42:42 So I run. I realized he comes to Boston and I have to go to New York. I go at least two times when he is here. Instead of having a season like a New York season, he has a week along. IG: 42:53 I see and-and your role is in fundraising. For them, you have parties, you have- LF: 42:58 Fundraising and behind the scenes and [inaudible] performances. IG: 43:01 How interesting. How interesting. So did this- LF: 43:03 It is fun. IG: 43:04 It is fun. So I know that we are running out of time. Are there any- LF: 43:10 I am happy to talk more [inaudible] with you. IG: 43:15 But for now, do you have any- you know what-what are some of the most important lessons that you have learned from your college years at Binghamton that you can share with our listeners who are most likely to be students that would help them in their careers? LF: 43:42 I would say, maintain optimism, kindness, right, being kind to people. I really, really try to be kind. And when I taught my kids, I know it sounds silly, it is nice to be nice. It was a pretty basic theme growing up, and I felt it in Binghamton also, you know, be nice to people. You want them to be nice to you. Be nice to them. It does not always work, but I think people, if you are steady, they see it and act accordingly, not always. You know, there is always going to be somebody at work that is horrible. But I was actually talking to a young person I met yesterday at a party, they are having a hard time at work, and the people are horrible. I said, "Well, try to let them just go over your head. Do not engage, right? Like water off a duck's back." Try to do that. Try to see their point of view. It is not always easy. I think I learned a lot of that being again, yeah, a lot of fun. And the other thing I want to tell you before we stop is that I spent a lot of time with Andy Plump. I do not know where Andy is now, but he was the editor of the pipe dream, and he was my boyfriend when I was at the radio station. So we had the radio station, and then his roommate was Michael Feigenheimer. Do you know that name? IG: 45:02 Yeah. LF: 45:04 Mike might have changed his name, but he was Mike Feigenheimer when he was in Binghamton, and he was the president of the student body. So between the president of student body, the head of pipe dream, and the head of we like controlled the media and the student body, but we all laughed about it, because there was no real any, no real power or control. There is no real anything. IG: 45:23 I think it is best to be president of body that has no control. LF: 45:30 And I also remember, I remember talking with who was the president at that time. He was really nice to me, the president of Binghamton. IG: 45:38 I think I know the name. LF: 45:39 Dean somebody, no, there was, I would have to come up [inaudible]. IG: 45:45 So there was a culture of niceness, you know. Not- LF: 45:48 My recollection- IG: 45:48 Not only intellectual- LF: 45:50 And generosity, sharing and all of that stuff, you know. And was it because we were all kind of hippies? I do not know. IG: 46:00 It might have been part of the (19)60s culture. LF: 46:04 I should ask my ex-husband, who was, you know, in Binghamton also with me. His name is Joe Korb, K-O-R-B but I can reach out to him and see if he wants to participate. IG: 46:17 No, I do not know. LF: 46:17 I am just throwing out these names- IG: 46:17 Right-right. IG: 46:17 Yes. LF: 46:17 I have no idea he does. He has also a very good memory of those years. And he graduated a year before me, I think, or a semester before me. So, you know, we started dating then, and we were together about 40 years, and we divorced, so we are still courteous. It was, it was a good period, you know it set the foundation for the rest of life. Maybe I will go back. Do you know Mike Needles? LF: 46:40 Now, Mike is, he was not, he is younger, a little bit younger. He was not there during that period. But I think he was on some-some committees. He was he was asking me to come up and visit. So maybe I will do that. IG: 47:00 Okay, I certainly will look up. So do we have any concluding remarks? Or do you think that we are done for now? LF: 47:07 Concluding remarks in terms of the influence of the (19)60s? IG: 47:12 In terms of the influence of Harpur College, you any words of advice, any life lessons that you would like to share you already spoke about- LF: 47:21 [crosstalk] great, but it was a nurturing, inclusive environment, and that set the tone for now. Living in the dorm was amazing. I had never lived away from home. Well, I have been away for some summer things, but not much, and then all of a sudden, you are totally free. You can do whatever you want. There was not, I do not remember storm restrictions. Felt like anybody could sleep with anybody or do anything they wanted. IG: 47:49 That that is a very different Harpur College than the one described by- LF: 47:54 The earlier (19)60s. IG: 47:55 The earlier (19)60s. LF: 47:56 By the time I got there in (19)70 things were changed. Maybe I am remembering wrong, but that is my recollection. IG: 48:03 That certainly is very different from the (19)60s graduates. LF: 48:07 Because they remember the- IG: 48:09 They were restricted, restrictive environment. Exactly LF: 48:12 No, I think I was just there at a good time. Really good time. So thank you. IG: 48:18 Well, thank you very much. LF: 48:19 Happy to talk more and- IG: 48:21 Okay. LF: 48:22 I will try to send you the World Trade Center document. IG: 48:26 I would love them. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynne Federman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Federman, Lynne ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource For 30 years, Lynn successfully guided institutions under regulatory enforcement actions and helped create and implement anti-money laundering programs. At Harpur, she managed the student-run radio station, WHRW. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lynne Federman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-04 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 48:26 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d5c72d9d541f5973b0d3b756e0688c8c.mp3 53c12e7263995f5d71510a394c025345 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reverend Canon Claudia Wilson Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Reverend Claudia is a semi-retired priest at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Yonkers. Before her ordination into the priesthood, she worked in publishing. At Harpur College, she was the first woman elected head of SDC (Students for Democratic Change), the progressive student government. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Claudia Wilson Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay [inaudible] CW: 00:03 My name is Claudia Wilson. I graduated from Harpur College in 1965 I am going to be 74 on July 12. I am currently a retired- I am a priest in the Episcopal Diocese of New York. I retired from active ministry, but I am a priest associate on a voluntary basis at St John's Church in Yonkers. IG: 00:26 Okay, so and we are currently interviewing you for the oral history project. CW: 00:37 Yes. IG: 00:37 Okay, so, tell us where you grew up. CW: 00:42 I was born and raised in the Bronx, and was my family was still living in the Bronx when I was a student at Harpur and um, I- after-after school, Terry, then [inaudible] now sailor, who was also an alum, and I rented an apartment in Manhattan, and I went to work in the book publishing business. After two years, I took a year off and got a master's degree in English from the University of from Toronto, University of Toronto in Canada. Came back and I had essentially a 23-year career in the book publishing business, mostly in college textbooks. Finished up with 11 years at Harper and Roe, now Harper Collins. And then I decided, I think partly because I never went into the Peace Corps or any of those things, that I would do some good work. And I went became the volunteer coordinator at God's Love We Deliver, which was doing people with AIDS. And then I felt a call to the diaconate in the Episcopal Church, and I went to work for an Episcopal Church for two years as their parish administrator of St John's in the village. That was in 1990 to 1992 which was a very interesting experience. I continued to volunteer for God's Love We Deliver. And of course, this was at the height of the AIDS crisis, and village was the epicenter. And I delivered, delivered meals to at that time men with AIDS during my lunch hour. And that was quite an, quite an experience, I have to say. And then after, in 1992 I was ordained to the diaconate, and I was a deacon at my church, which was sending nations of Antioch on West End Avenue in Manhattan for two years. And then I had moved to Riverdale from Manhattan, and I came to St John's Church here in Yonkers as Deacon. I was Deacon here for 12 years. I was also as soon as I was ordained on the staff of the Episcopal Diocese of New York. And then after a while, after 10 years as a deacon, discerned a call, a change in vocation to the priesthood, and I went to Seabury, Western seminary. IG: 01:56 When was that? CW: 01:56 That was in 1990 to 1992 which was a very interesting experience. I continued to volunteer for God's Love We Deliver. And of course, this was at the height of the AIDS crisis, and village was the epicenter. And I delivered, delivered meals to at that time men with AIDS during my lunch hour. And that was quite a, quite an experience, I have to say. And then after, in 1992 I was ordained to the diaconate, and I was a deacon at my church, which was sending nations of Antioch on West End Avenue in Manhattan for two years. And then I had moved to Riverdale from Manhattan, and I came to St John's Church here in Yonkers as Deacon. I was Deacon here for 12 years. I was also as soon as I was ordained on the staff of the Episcopal Diocese of New York. And then after a while, after 10 years as a deacon, discerned a call, a change in vocation to the priesthood, and I went to Seabury, Western seminary. IG: 03:03 Which is where? CW: 03:04 Evanston. Evanston, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. I was 60 years old when I went to seminary. IG: 03:04 Wonderful-wonderful. CW: 03:10 Very interesting too. It is a totally different educational experience to go to college in the (19)60s and seminary in the in the 2000s let me tell you, was wonderful. Anyway, after two years, I was ordained to the priesthood. I was priest on a halftime basis in a church, church of the Holy Communion in May, a pack and continued to work. IG: 03:31 I know where that there's a Russian Orthodox convent. CW: 03:34 Yes, right across the street from my church. IG: 03:36 Wonderful, what a coincidence. CW: 03:39 Yes. Anyway, I was half time at Holy Communion, and half time working for the diocese as a camp for congregational development. And then in in 2016 I became 72 and the rules of the church said, church pension fund always say, you have to retire from the pension fund collect a pension. But if you are a priest in charge of a congregation, you must leave that congregation at 72 and I had already been working for 50 plus years by that time, and I just decided to retire. So, I retired, but I came and I lived 10 minutes from St John's Getty square, came back here. Knew the priest in charge. He was somebody I knew from the Cathedral of St John the Divine, and so I am now priest associate here. So, in a nutshell, that is my 50 years of working after school. IG: 04:29 Thank you, thank you for that very succinct synopsis of a long career. CW: 04:36 Yes. IG: 04:37 A very diverse career. CW: 04:39 Yes, I feel like I have had I have been very fortunate. Many people do not find like do not are not able to find one thing they like to do. And I had two distinct careers of things that I really loved. So, I feel very fortunate in that way, IG: 04:53 And you are still doing it. CW: 04:53 Yeah, I am still doing it. Yes. Right. IG: 05:01 Engaged. So, let us return to a deeper past, which is your childhood and upbringing, and tell us a little bit about your parents and where you told us the Bronx and your upbringing and whether they went to college, if they encouraged you to pursue your education? CW: 05:25 Yes-yes. My mother was from Louisville, Kentucky, and my mother did graduate from college. She went to Miami University in Ohio. She was a social worker before she got married. My father was in the New York City Police Department for 32 years and retired as a captain in 1968 they met because my father, early in his police career, was in the emergency squad, and my uncle by marriage, my mother's brother-in-law, was also in the same squad, and fixed my mother and my father up for a date, when my mother came to New York to visit her sister. My father did not go to college. His parents, they just could not afford it. Even-even going to City University, which would have been free, they needed his income. So, which is unfortunate, because my father was a very-very bright man, really, very intelligent man, lover, great lover of music. Great opera fan, very good with languages. When I was in high school, I took Spanish, and my father used to coach me on my on my Spanish homework he had gotten. My father went to Stuyvesant. He got the Spanish medal every year he was in Stuyvesant. And even then, 40 years later, he remembered it. Do you know, he really just had that gift, you know? IG: 06:43 Well, he also probably had occasion to use it, living in New York. CW: 06:45 Yes-yes, no, Bronx. I think you know; you have to understand that when I was growing up in the Bronx, the neighborhood that I, that we lived in- IG: 06:49 It was very different. CW: 06:55 -was product was white. IG: 06:57 Yes. CW: 06:58 It was predominantly Roman Catholic with a significant Jewish population. In fact, when I went to elementary school, these were the days that they did not close the schools on the Jewish holidays. And literally, I was the only girl in my fifth-grade class. And there would be a handful of us in the whole school. So it was, which was good, I think, because I kind of grew up, unlike a lot of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants, not feeling like I ruled the world, if you know what I mean. And I had, you know, most of my friends were either Roman Catholic or Jewish, and I went to a Presbyterian Church, which was about the only time I came into contact with other students. So, you know, so it was, it was in we lived in University Heights, and at that point, NYU uptown, which is where Bronx Community College is now, it is just down the block from us. And the Presbyterian Church I went to had been founded by-by NYU faculty members back in 1901 so I was very fortunate. I mean, I went to public school in the Bronx, and I went to-to Junior, what was then Junior High in the Bronx, but I went to high school at Hunter College, high school in Manhattan, which changed my life, really. I mean, in a way, first of all, you know, I got out of the Bronx, in a sense. But also, I think Hunter, the work we did at Hunter, really prepared me for Harpur, in a way that I know I saw a lot of my classmates who came from smaller, consolidated schools in upstate New York, you know, where they wrote essays about what I did my summer vacation, and then he got, they got, you know, to Harpur, and they were asked to write an essay about Dante's Inferno. We had sort of been doing that kind of thing all the time, and I had, I had gotten some AP credits in English and history. So, I think Hunter was a very-very significant- IG: 09:02 I know, friends who have gone. CW: 09:04 Yes, exactly. And, of course, you know, one is proud of the fact that Supreme Court Justice went to your high school. And various other people, and also people I knew at Harpur, Deborah Tannen, who's the link. IG: 09:04 Of course. CW: 09:19 She-she was a year behind me at Hunter, at Hunter and Harpur, so I knew her. IG: 09:23 How interesting. CW: 09:25 Yes-yes. So then, you know, so I think the time that I went to Harpur, there were a lot of kids there who could have gone to an Ivy, Ivy League school, but, you know, maybe did not qualify for a scholarship, and certainly parents could not afford it. I had my best friend in high school went to Cornell, and we were shocked that it was going to cost her $2,000 a year, you know, because people did not have that kind of money, you know. So-so I think that also made Harpur a kind of unique experience at the time that, you know, there were a lot of people there. Who were very bright, very bright, you know, and could have been in other places, but you know- IG: 10:06 How did you choose? how did you end up choosing Harpur? CW: 10:09 My father, who did not go to college, was very firm that I should go away to school, because he said to me that if you stay home, it is just going to be like an extension of high school. And quite frankly, you know, my policemen did not make much money in those days, not that we were, I mean, I never considered us poor, but we certainly, you know, could not have afforded $2,000 a year, you know, at Cornell so Binghamton Harpur offered, you know, a really good education. And, I mean, I think my, I think, was like $500 a year or something like that. And so, it was well within, you know, our means, IG: 10:49 and you probably got a Regents scholarship. Do you remember? CW: 10:52 I do not remember. I do not remember, to tell you the truth, but I probably did, I do not remember, I really do not remember, you know. And of course, it was, it was away, but close enough, you know, although, of course, you know, it is thinking back on it now, you know, we did not have cell phones and we did not have the internet, and, you know, I called my parents once a week on Sunday. You know, my mother and I wrote letters to each other, letters in envelopes and stamps. Nobody does that anymore, but that was the way, you know. So, in a way, it was good, especially if I am an only child. I think it was good for me because I really had to be on my own, so to speak, you know. And I think my father was absolutely right, you know, that it was good for me to-to get away and, you know, be on my own, because I was very spoiled. But, you know, managed. Okay. IG: 11:40 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to accomplish at Harpur? Did you know- CW: 11:45 I think in those days, one was not quite as fixated on education as the means to a job did you know? IG: 11:54 Yes. CW: 11:54 I mean, I graduated with a degree in humanities, you know, with English literature, and I went, you know, and I interviewed at like, five or six publishing companies. I mean, yes, they were, you know, jobs as secretaries. That is how you started in publishing. But they were there, you know. I mean, I- it was very different time in terms of the in terms of the opportunities that were available to people, especially people with liberal arts degrees. You know, I mean, I do not know what I would do now, you know- IG: 12:24 [crosstalk] time when you could actually aspire, you know, to any right profession, to any [crosstalk] CW: 12:31 I mean, I went into publishing because I had been an English major, and it just seemed like the natural thing to do. And my friend, Terry, whom I roomed with, was going to library school, she became a librarian, as a matter of fact, and wound up, ultimately- IG: 12:45 What is her last name? CW: 12:46 Now, Shorttail, she became, eventually, she went to work for the Public Library system in New York, and then eventually, when her husband worked for the New York Times in Washington, and they moved into Maryland, and she went and became, I think she, she became a librarian at University of Maryland, Baltimore campus, the one that, you know, the, I think it is the place that that just won that big, you know, NCAA title, or whatever. But anyway, she became a librarian, [crosstalk] we could do that. I mean, you know, my salary was like $85 a week. I took the job because it was $85 not $75 that everybody else was offering. And I do not know, I do not remember what she was making. She was working part time as a librarian, and but, you know, I mean, we paid $200 a month for a furnished apartment in Chelsea, which was not this fancy then as it is now. And, you know, we ate at home a lot, and we saved up enough money we gave a big party the first Christmas, we were, it was Christmas of (19)66 not (19)65, Christmas of (19)66. We had enough money saved up that we could, you know, kids cannot do that these days. You know, they are living in their parents’ basements. So we were, I think we were very fortunate. IG: 14:00 Yeah, it is a different world. So, you know, in publishing, you worked as an um- CW: 14:08 I work for the I started out at the McMillan company as assistant in the permissions department, and then I moved to the contracts department, and then I moved to the school book department as a kind of production editor assistant. Then I then that was, went right after that, but I took off the year and got a master's degree in at University of Toronto, came back and went to work for-for the Prentice Hall. IG: 14:36 And as-as what? CW: 14:38 As a production editor, you know. IG: 14:38 As a production editor. CW: 14:40 Yeah, right. IG: 14:41 I know exactly what that is. CW: 14:42 Oh, you do, okay, yes, words and I became the Prentice Hall at the time, did this series of books called spectrum books. You probably had them. You probably, well, maybe not, but they were paperbacks that were like supplement, supplementary text, you might say. So, we had like 20th century views, which was 20th century views of major authors, and [crosstalk] and we had a series on film, and a whole bunch of series, and I eventually became the sort of managing editor for the production editing department for for that. And then- IG: 15:17 Interesting material. CW: 15:19 Very interesting, very-very interesting and sideline. It is not really probably important for this, but many years later, when I had my church in map pack, my organist, who's actually a jazz musician, on how we got to talking about it, it turned out his father had been one of my authors, which was really weird. His father was an expert on Godard, and we had a book about a Godard [crosstalk] IG: 15:42 [crosstalk] was interesting [crosstalk] So as a production editor, did you get to read this material? CW: 15:51 Yes, well- IG: 15:51 Were you just more interested in people- CW: 15:55 Well, I mean, obviously we had, we had proof readers, and we had things like that. So, I was but I got very especially the film books. I got very interested in the film books, and I felt like I did more than just, you know, kind of shuffle traffic things around. And I had a lot of contact with the authors at that point. And then later became an editor at Prentice Hall, and what was then called their managed book division. Managed books- was a big thing in the (19)70s where you had a titular author, but you also did an enormous amount of research about what the other competing books were like, how much, how many words they how much space they gave to certain topics, and all of that. And so, I became a, became a development editor, and eventually became a development editor at at Harper and Roe, oh, I went to work very briefly for something called the Franklin Library. They did those leather-bound volumes, you know, that you see on people's shelves. And that was good because they paid a lot, which enabled me to get a job that paid more. So eventually, a man that I had known at Prentice Hall, who had gone to Harper and Roe in the College Division, hired me to be their-their development sort of head of their development department. And then- IG: 17:16 What does the development [crosstalk] CW: 17:17 Well, what we did was what we did was work. There was the odd quote author, and then there were also professional writers. And so, you-you arranged, you oversaw the research that was done for the book. You worked with the author, you know, on the outline and sort of work with you also arranged for, you know, professional reviews of the of the of the of the manuscript by, you know, other-other academics, and then sort of saw it through production. You were not the production editor, but you were the person in house that the production people worked with. But then eventually Harper and Roe had a terrible time with its biology editors. Two of them sort of failed quickly. At that point, they- we had a-a textbook for anatomy and physiology for two-year schools for people who are going to be eight, you know, not nurses. Well, could be for nursing, you know, could be for technicians. You know, whatever was the best-selling book in the department, and very expensive to do. Not only made a lot of money, but cost a lot of money IG: 18:28 What were the years of doing this? CW: 18:30 Oh, okay, I became the development, I became. So eventually, they asked me if I would be the acquisitions editor, the buyer for the biology list that was 1981 and they wanted me because I understood what it meant to do these lavishly illustrated, you know, books, and I had a good reputation for my dealings with authors, you know. And so, I did that for seven years, I guess. And then then became the Executive Editor for Sciences at Harper and Roe, and then left that in at the beginning of 1989 IG: 19:05 Did you have any science background? CW: 19:09 But biology, unlike a lot of other sciences, you need to do these words, you know what I mean. And I had some really wonderful authors that I liked very much. And of course, I traveled around the country, you know, visiting, visiting university, you know, colleges and universities, and I really, I really enjoyed it a lot. But as I say, I eventually I had, I had my-my parents did not go to church, but they sent me to Presbyterian Sunday school. I went to Presbyterian Church all in high school, I went to Presbyterian church for the first two years I was at Harpur, and then my very best friend at Harpur, Susan Calkins. Now Susan Calkins, Ritas, was an Episcopalian, and I visited her during the summer between our sophomore and junior years, and she took me to church of the Advent in Boston, which is very famous for its high church liturgy and incense and smells and bells, as we say. And I was so swept away by the liturgy that I decided to become an Episcopalian on the spot. It was actually-actually confirmed while I was at Harpur. And uh- IG: 20:16 So, tell us a little bit about that environment. And- CW: 20:19 Yes, I mean, it was, it was not a lot of people went to church. I was, in some ways, sort of an oddball in the way, you know, I was president of the Student Government. IG: 20:31 No, I did not. CW: 20:32 Oh yes. IG: 20:33 I did not know. CW: 20:33 Yeah-yeah. I was the first woman elected to be President of the Student Government. That was in (19)64 and I am sorry, (19)63 and we-we had a group called Students for a Democratic community, which was a take-off on a democratic society. And this is just my opinion, check with other people. But I think one of the reasons that they, that group sort of nominated me to be President of the Student Government was because I was a good girl. Do you know what I mean, it was, I was the kind of person that the administration, if they did not like what STC was doing, they could not really fault me. Do you know what I am saying? Good, very good grades. IG: 21:19 And maybe you were [crosstalk] CW: 21:21 Yes, exactly. I mean, I believed in what stood for, but I was not personally a radical kind of person, you know what I mean? [crosstalk] So I was, I was kind of difficult to be sidelined because I was, you know, a rebel or, right, what you know, whatever. So anyway, but so, yeah, well, you know, at Harpur at that point, I think I can tell you a story that will give you an example that will kind of illustrate something of what it was like. I was thinking about this as I was thinking about coming here today. I had a friend. This is freshman year, I guess, or maybe sophomore year, I do not remember who lived in I lived in O'Connor. She lived in Johnson, and I used to go over there occasionally to visit her. And every time I went over there, one of the girls who lived on the floor was playing Johnny Mathis', Wonderful! Wonderful! 24 hours a day next door to me in O'Connor was living a girl who played Joan Baez, is House of the Rising Sun, 24 hours a day. And that was sort of what it was like. You know what I mean, we had very distinct groups. We did not call them hippies. We call them sickies, so, you know. And it was, you know, graduating in (19)65 the Vietnam War, we had, like, I think, one protest toward the very-very end of the time that we were there. So, we actually went to class. Do you know, do not, I am saying we did not? And you also have to remember, if you entered Harpur, I was like, 17, okay, in 1961 well, I had spent most of my formative years in the (19)50s, you know, we were kind of on a we were, in a way, a transition, I think, to what came later. And our thing was, really civil rights was a very big thing, civil rights club. We had a civil rights club. We also went to Buffalo to protest the hearings. HUAC had hearings about the State University. I think in Buffalo, we went to protest that. IG: 23:27 What was thought about? CW: 23:28 Well, you know, HUAC House, on American Activities Committee was looking into, I guess, what they thought were communists in the state universities. IG: 23:35 Meaning the faculty[crosstalk] CW: 23:36 Yeah, I would assume Buffalo, this is Buffalo. Buffalo, well-well, I think it was in our sophomore year that Buffalo joined the State University, you know, because originally Harpur was the only liberal arts school, and then buffalo joined, Stony Brook joined, and they converted Albany into from being a strictly teachers’ college into even what they call the university center that was also a liberal arts school. So, there were four of them liberal arts schools by the time we-we left. So anyway, we, you know, we protested about that. I think the only thing- IG: 24:11 So, you were politicized? CW: 24:12 Oh yes, we were, we were, but when you talk to people who graduated later, Vietnam was, there was a very big thing. It was not for us. No, it was. I mean, although I certainly had friends who-who you know when you know we were in the draft and you know or not and all that, but I think for us, civil rights was probably the biggest thing, because you have to understand that we were in in school during the height of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Martin Luther King's, you know, the speech in Washington, the Civil Rights Act, the voting right wrote Rights Act, all of that was and we did have people who went south in the summer, you know, to teach and demonstrate and-and whatever. So that was very important. The only thing that really stopped classes for us was Kennedy's death. Of course, Kennedy died while we were there. And-and, of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis was in the fall of our son is in the fall of our sophomore. IG: 25:13 What did you think about that? CW: 25:14 Well, we actually watched it on television, and we did not have to understand, in the dorms, you know. So, they had, they had it, yeah, they brought in the TV. They brought in a TV for The Beatles too, [laughs] IG: 25:29 On the Ed Sullivan Show. CW: 25:30 On The Ed Sullivan Show, yes, we watched it. And, of course, for Kennedy's funeral. I mean, you know. So no, I think people you know, thought that conceivably, that for the Cuban Missile Crisis, that this could have been World War three, you know. And who knows what would have happened, especially being in New York. I mean, we all grew up, you know, with the duck and cover drills when it was just so ridiculous, [crosstalk] especially in New York, come on. IG: 26:01 But this was the thing the past at Harpur College. None of, none of the drills [crosstalk] CW: 26:07 We had grown up- IG: 26:08 I understand. CW: 26:08 -you know, we had grown up with the idea that the Russians were going to come and bomb us, do you know? And I mean, blow us up. IG: 26:14 But did you believe that? CW: 26:16 I think as a child, I remember we went on a summer vacation, and we went to Gettysburg. We saw the, you know, the battlefield at Gettysburg and the ray caverns. And we were coming back, and we're staying overnight in this motel someplace in Pennsylvania, I guess. And in the middle of the night, a siren went off, and I thought it was an atomic attack. Of course, it was the volunteer fire department. You know, so, you know, we grew up with the notion that the siren was going to go off and, you know, the bomb was going to come down. Of course, my father, when I was in junior high school, we had early dismissal drills. Instead of the duck and cover, we had an early dismissal drill so you could go home and die with your family. And I always thought, Well, my father's a cop. He was not going to be home. No, so anyway. But it was, I think, you know, things that would seem petty. Now, like, you know, we had a demonstration against the rule against wearing shorts in the dining but it was, it was very much a part of that development of the 60s mentality. IG: 27:29 Right. And yet, and yet, you know, you, you participated in the duck and cover. I know that everyone did. And you believe that, you know, the Soviets were possibly a threat [crosstalk] And you were also, well, my protesting at Buffalo against you are, yes, so how does that? How does that kind of there? There must have been some kind of transition in awareness and political awareness. CW: 27:52 Yeah, I think, I think also now I grew up my father, who was not he was a cop, but we are not Irish, and we were not Catholic. And he was a Republican, very unusual. So- but, you know, as, of course, you know, Kennedy was elected when I was in high school. And I think, you know, that was sort of the beginning of-of more of a political, you know, awareness, and I never voted for Republican in my life. I voted for a Democrat. I voted the first vote I ever cast was in 1965 in New York City for John Lindsay as the mayor my father hated and so, you know, I voted for Lindsay. I got my mother to vote for Lindsay, you know, so, I mean, I was, I was more of a, I was a Democrat, you know, fairly early on right now. And I think at Harpur, you know, there were a lot of people who were very politically aware and very politically active. And of course, you know, I fell in with that group. IG: 29:01 Do you think that you're thinking altered about the world and how you perceive politics in the world at Harpur College? Or did it occur before? CW: 29:11 Probably it became- yeah, I would, I would say yes. I would say that I met more people in at Harpur who were politically active than I had certainly ever met at Hunter High School. I do not think, I do not remember people being especially politically active, although, you know, at Hunter especially, and probably also at Harpur. At Hunter, there were a number of girls whose families had been--two of two of my best friends at Harpur were from Latvia and had been displaced persons after the war, and whose parents had been whose-whose father stayed behind in order to get his wife and children out and other--we had a girl from the Ukraine. We had girl. We had people, you know, who were whose lives, families' lives, certainly if not their own. Because I am most of my classmates were born in (19)43 or (19)44 so we're talking about people who were born during the war, especially if you were born of European parents, either your parents were refugees or, you know, or you were yourself, I mean, in some way, as an infant, anyway. So, I think that I was certainly conscious of political developments. We had a course at Hunter I remember in my senior year about the developing nations of Africa, do you know? And so, you know, I think one was aware, but I was not, I was not really an adult at that point. I think, you know, at Harpur, you became an adult, and I think that made a difference also. IG: 30:53 And you gravitated to political activity because of the seeds that were planted early on- CW: 31:00 Yeah, I think so. And just because of the friends that I made at Harpur. You know, my friend Susan Calkins, it was, I said it was my very best friend. Was very politically active, and still is, for that matter. So, you know, I- IG: 31:15 What kind of, do you remember the kind of conversations that you would have? CW: 31:18 I am sorry, I do not. IG: 31:20 You do not of course. I know, I know [crosstalk] You know what you know a question I thought of you went you mentioned that you went to seminary at age 60. CW: 31:33 Yes. IG: 31:34 How was that experience different from attending college at 17? CW: 31:39 Yeah, well, last time before I went to before I went to seminary in 2004. I had not been in a formal classroom since 1968 when I got my master's degree at Toronto. So I was, just, say, a little bit apprehensive about how this was going to go. And of course, the technology was entirely different, you know. So anyway, got into class. Now a lot of a lot of people were also people who had had other careers. So, although I was among the oldest in the group that I was in, you know, a lot of people were in their 40s and 50s, but we had some people who were in their 20s, you know, and 30s, and we had a lot of good laughs, I have to say, because our life experiences had been so-so different. I remember in my Old Testament class, my Old Testament professor, who was probably in his 40s at that point, was very big on bringing in examples from current culture, especially music. And he was into the discussion. And he was very big on multicultural interpretations in the Bible. He was originally his family was Korean, I think yes. So anyway, he would bring in these references to these groups that I must confess I had never heard because, you know, music is the great divider. IG: 32:57 Of course. CW: 32:58 Until one day in class, he said something about Simon and Garfunkel and all of us of a certain age, clap. [laughter] But I really, I really enjoyed seminary. I enjoy, I always enjoyed school. I mean, you know, class and all of that, and it was nice. It was like using a different part of my brain and taking a rest from all the other things that I had ever done. And as I said, you know, we, especially some of the younger kids in the in the class, we really appreciated each other, I think, you know, so it was, it was, it was good. I was I was really because it was funny when I, when I was accepted into the ordination process for the priesthood. I never expected that the bishop would say to me, you have to leave New York. But he was right, because I had been working for the diocese for so long, and I never would have gotten away from it, you know. And he had been the dean at Seabury Western before he became the Bishop of New York. So, he said to me, "How about Seabury?" And I had, I had promised myself that whatever he said, whatever it took, I would do it. And so, I picked up all my stuff and the cats, and I moved out to Evanston for two years. So. IG: 34:10 You mentioned attending Presbyterian Church in Binghamton. CW: 34:15 Yes. IG: 34:15 What was that like? Were there students, or was it- CW: 34:18 There were few students. I mean, the problem was, if you look at our yearbook, there was a group called Young Americans for Freedom, which was sort of the Goldwater type. And I was not like them at all, you know, just not like them at all. [crosstalk] No, not particularly my church. But I just meant being-being known as a Protestant that went to church, you know, right, a little right chance I always thought. But then, when I went, when I be, when I decided to go to the Episcopal Church, my friend Susan was there. And so it was, you know, I felt more-more comfortable. IG: 34:54 And where was the church? CW: 34:56 And it was in John, actually, the church I went to that I was confirmed at was in Johnson City. There was also a church in Binghamton that we went to occasionally. So, in fact, I went because when I was confirmed, my family was not there. The rector of the church invited me to come to dinner, and I had dinner with his family and the bishop, Bishop Higley, his name was, who was the Bishop of Central New York, who confirmed me, so, yeah. IG: 35:22 Was there a great division between town and gown, between the student community and Binghamton [inaudible] CW: 35:32 Yeah, probably, I think, you know, do not forget, we did not have cars. IG: 35:38 So how did you get around? CW: 35:39 Well, eventually a bus. I mean, some people did, right, very-very few, eventually they ran a bus line that came up into the campus. So, you know, you did not, I mean, except, you know, to go to, you know, to go out on a Friday night or something like that. You really did not get into town, into town, per se. I mean, I was not, I did not feel very aware of Binghamton. Do you know what I mean, as a town, and there were, there were some people who lived, I mean, other than students who lived in Binghamton, but I mean people who were from Binghamton, who were in in school, but there were not that many. I did not, I do not think I could be wrong about that, but I do not think there were that many. And do not forget how small Harpur was also at that point, when I graduated, there were 900 people there. IG: 36:24 Oh, my God, so I did not, yes, I did not realize that small. Because- CW: 36:29 Yes, absolutely, in fact, our last year there was the first year that that they had graduate, any kind of graduate enrollment. But yes, oh, 100 students, roughly when we graduated. So, I mean, like, for example, I went to all of the reunion, all the 10-year reunions, you know, and when we had the 40th, the place had changed, but they were still, think I still recognized it when we went back and, you know, in 2005 for the for the 50th, or 2015 I should say, for the 50th, we could not find our way. We could not find our way around. It was just totally different. IG: 36:29 And now there are three campuses. CW: 36:31 Oh, really? IG: 36:31 In Johnson City, there is the schools of pharmacology and nursing. CW: 37:12 Oh, yes. And of course, there were no professional schools at that point. IG: 37:20 [inaudible] professional it was a liberal arts. So let us talk about your education. CW: 37:26 Oh, yes. IG: 37:26 Did you remember any outstanding classes faculty made a particular [crosstalk] CW: 37:33 Yeah, well, as you know, but when we were there, there was still a number of faculty who had been part of the sort of University of Chicago group you know that- IG: 37:42 Yes, I heard about that. CW: 37:44 -because, you know, Bartle had hired all these people from, more or less from the University of Chicago, and the curriculum was really more or less based on this model of the great books, you know. So, for example, we had, you know, two years of what they call lit and comp literature and composition, where you read something and you wrote about it. Essentially, I had, I had placed out of the first year for my AP course, so I started in the second year. And it is interesting because I had also placed out of a year of history, and I was not sure at that point whether I was going to be a history major or an English major. And I just, I remember Mario DiCesare taught the comp course that I took, and I thought he was so wonderful. And unfortunately, the history teacher that I had was not as good, so I sort of opted into English. And, you know, we had Dr. Huppe [Bernard Huppe], who taught, who taught Chaucer, I mean, who was a legend. And I do not know the I thought the English faculty was especially strong at that point. So, and then I also took German and for three years, and the German faculty was good. So, you know, that is, those are the things I remember the most. IG: 38:57 Did you have anything similar to an immersion? Did you speak program in German? Did you speak German outside of the class? CW: 39:05 No, I did not. I did not. I have a girl, woman that I roomed with at the very beginning. She and I had both gone to Hunter. She became a German major, and I am sure she had more, you know, than that. But I really liked German. I have to say, IG: 39:20 It was a language lab. CW: 39:23 We had a language lab. We listened and we spoke, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we spoke in class. But it was more it was not. It was, I mean, conversation was not the sort of main thing of the course. The more it was a literature it was really reading, you know, IG: 39:24 Reading and discussing. CW: 39:29 Yes. IG: 39:31 English? CW: 39:41 Right-right. You know, well, I remember very distinctly what the Hunger Artist by Franz Kafka, which is strange enough, when you read it in English, but when you are a student and you are reading it in German, you are saying that cannot be what it is you know-know, so, and, of course, poetry Heine and, I mean, German poetry is really beautiful. Yeah, I still have, I still have my German poetry book at home, you know. So, yeah, so it was more literature based than actually, than conversation, you know, at least what I what I did. I mean, there may have been a conversational German, course, I do not remember if it was. IG: 40:23 How did you spend your free time? You were part of the student- CW: 40:27 So, well, the senior, but my, you know, junior, senior year, being in, being involved with-with student government, that took up a lot of time. I do not, I do not really. Now, you know, when we first moved in the dorms were not finished all of them, and so we tripled up. So, I was in with two senior girls my for the first, like, first semester. But I do not remember what we did other than, I mean, you know, the curriculum was, was, you know, was strenuous. It was not, you know, you could not just sort of look at something the night before a test. And, you know, and that was it. And we wrote a lot of papers, I mean, a lot of papers. And, oh yes, actually, in my junior-junior year, yes, junior year, we started a magazine called The Humanities Review, and I was- Bob Posick was the editor, I think, and Francis Newman was the faculty advisor. His sister was in my class, by the way, Frances new or the class after us. I cannot remember. Francis Newman was the faculty advisor, and I-I was something. Maybe I typed it. I cannot remember, but I remember, yes-yes, the humanities review I was involved with that. IG: 41:54 I wonder if it still exists. I heard of it. CW: 41:57 Oh yeah, I do not know what happened after we graduated to tell you the truth. IG: 42:02 But, and what kind of, what kind of articles did it run? Do you remember? CW: 42:07 I do not. I do not really remember [crosstalk] IG: 42:07 Was student writing? CW: 42:07 Well, there was student writing, yeah, I think mostly, I think it was mostly student writing. I cannot honestly remember to tell you the truth, right? And, you know, we had a lot of creative people, you know, Andy Bergman. And Bergman, who was the movie person was, and his best friend, Richie Walter, became the head of the UCLA Film-Film School. So, they were and another guy in the class, Alan Goldsmith, he was the he was the editor of the yearbook. I got in terrible trouble. If you look at the (19)64 yearbook, you can see why it was very different, very different from anything that that had been and then, you know, you know, we have what it was also interesting was that, for example, Mike Tillis, who was part of the STC, you know, sort of what you would call hippie group. Also played basketball, which, you know, we do not think of that, but he did. He is now a rabbi, by the way, in Israel, Orthodox rabbi in Israel changed his name, yeah, I have not he wrote in Israel. He is in Israel. He is an orthodox rabbi. Now you would never have guessed. Never in 1 million years, have guessed. Everybody went to the basketball games. I mean, everybody that was the big sport. We also interesting enough had soccer because [inaudible], I think was his name- IG: 43:36 Did girls play? CW: 43:37 I do not remember. I know the boys played. But I do not remember the girls played. But we had a soccer team because we had a kid from Norway who had played soccer in nor you know, at home, and you know, he played. So. IG: 43:52 Were there any other international students? CW: 43:54 I was just about to say, yes, there was one poor boy from Africa who came. IG: 43:59 I think I have heard about this poor boy from any [crosstalk] CW: 44:01 He thought it was going to be close to New York City. [crosstalk] Yes, I cannot, I cannot remember his name now, but I felt so sorry for him because, I mean, he was all we were all white. I mean, you know, almost, almost all white. But you know, it is like, [crosstalk] like when I was, I say, when I was in, when I was in public school in the Bronx, my entire public school-school was white. There were no black kids when I was in junior high school in the same basic neighborhood, there was like two black girls now, Hunter was more it was more diverse because we had girls from all over the city. Do you know what I mean? So, we had, we had, you know, black girls, we had Asian girls, we had girls, you know, whose families, you know, were refugees. You know. I mean, it was we and we had girls. It was not only diverse, although the majority were white, but there was enough. Significant number of non-whites that you-you know, it was diverse. But the other thing that was really diverse about-about Hunter was the economic background of students, because we had girls who lived on Park Avenue, girls were on welfare. And then a girl who's who lived on Park Avenue, because her father was the superintendent of the building, you know, on Park Avenue. So, it was and everything in between. IG: 45:25 And you have, you did not have that economic diversity at Harpur? CW: 45:29 I do not think so. I do not, I do not think so. IG: 45:31 What about the Upstate students versus the New York City, or they were all from kind of a [crosstalk] CW: 45:38 Well, there was a, yeah, I mean, the mid there was probably what, 60 percent of the students were from New York City, I think. I mean, it was an overwhelming number. And I remember meeting a girl who had gone, who was from upstate somewhere, who had never met a Jew before in her life, you know, so it was, you know what it was. And as I say, there was another girl who was, who was on, came to Harpur, probably had been, you know, in the honor roll in her high school started was getting D's because she had never done the same kind of work. You know, it was not that she was stupid. She was not she transferred to Fredonia; I think it was--got on the Dean's list. So, you know, it was very different. You know, Harpur was really different than because everything else was a State Teachers College. And I do not mean to say that all the Upstate kids were like that, but there were a number of people who, just because of the kinds of schools they went to, did not have the opportunities that, like, say, I had, you know, and of course, we had kids from city, kids who were from Hunter, who were from Bronx Science, who were from Stuyvesant, who were from Brooklyn Tech, you know. I mean, you know, it was a there were some people from elite kind of high schools that public, you know, very few private school people, I think, but public. IG: 45:38 What were some of your best experiences at Harpur College? What do you remember with the most fondness? CW: 46:11 I do not know that I remember any individual experiences, but you know, there are people that I met there, like Terry and like Susan and like Bob Freeston and Ryan Goldsmith and Andy Bergman and people, just people who were really interesting and really creative, and we had fun. Do you know what I mean? We had; we had a good time. We worked hard, but we had a good time. I do not, I do not remember anything, you know, a particular occasion, but I was very happy at Harpur. Do you know what I mean? I was really, really glad that I went there. Now, not everybody was. I had a couple of people. One girl who, you know, transferred out after her freshman year, went back to the city because she just missed New York, you know, more than anything else. And I think she was also very young. And I think that was also hard being away from home, and you know, all of that. IG: 48:04 So, do you think that, you know, maybe Hunter College kind of set the level of your political engagement at Harpur College? CW: 48:20 I do not know; I really would not say that. I think what it did set was the level of my ability to take advantage of the of the of the education that was there, you know that really and truly, even if I had to choose, I would have to say that Hunter changed my academic life more than more than Harpur did, just because it, it was sort of like I went to Hunter for three years, 10th grade to 12th grade. It was like three additional years of Harpur educationally, you know, I mean the level of what you, what you, you know, the kind of education you got. IG: 48:59 Did you notice that there were different expectations for men than there were for women at Harpur College? I think maybe not for you, because you have a Hunter College experience. CW: 49:10 Yeah-yeah. I never felt that. For me personally, there was any difference. And of course, at Hunter, almost all the teachers were women. I mean, we had a couple of men, but three or four, I guess at Harpur, they were mostly men. I am, in fact, I think, actually, in my entire four years there, I do not think I had a single woman as a teacher. I think all of my teachers were men. I do not remember any woman, and I think I would, because they should have stood out, and there were women there, certainly, but-but I, you know, it is funny, I do not think we were aware of it, do you know, because that is just the way. It is just the way things were. But I do not, I never felt at all that I was, you know, discriminated against, or-or somehow, you know, not appreciate. Educated or whatever, being a woman, I really did not you know it was interesting, because when I got out of school and I went, I remember this one very distinctly, interview for a job, $75 a week, a publishing company, which name I have forgotten now. And I went, and it was an assistant kind of job, which they all were. And so, I said to the person that I interviewed with, and "Could you tell me what the you know, what are the opportunities, you know, for advancement?" They said, "Oh, do not worry about it all. The girls get married and have babies." Well, nobody would say that today. And I did not go there, not because of that. Well, that was part of it, not because of what he said about women, but just because he more or less said, there is no opportunity for advancement. I mean, you know, but also because, as I said, they were paying $75 a week, and I found a job for 85 you know, so in a department run by a woman, by the way, which was interesting now that I think of it. But anyway, no-no, I did not feel it. Now, you might get an entirely different, you know, experience from somebody else. But I-I was, I was never shy. Let us put it that way, in class, ever. IG: 49:11 How do you think your classmates would remember you me [inaudible] period? CW: 49:11 Me? IG: 49:11 Yes, CW: 50:28 Probably as a good girl. I think probably somebody intelligent and, you know, and to a certain extent, I was, I was a leader, but I do not, I did not feel and being the first woman elected as the president of the Student Government, which I suppose, was a big deal, but it did not seem all that big at the time, you know. So, I enjoyed our 50th reunion, I have to say. IG: 50:47 Were they astonished to learn that you had become a priest? CW: 50:52 No, because I had been, I was, I was ordained 25 years ago to the diaconate. 26 years ago, to the diaconate. So, I had already been to reunions where I was in an ordained life. So, it was not that, it was not that strange. But the funny thing was, when we did our 50th reunion, Jeanette Mayer Luzasky put together this video, you know, for our and she asked me if I would be the narrator, because they figured I was not afraid about getting up in front of people and talking. Since I did that all the time, you know, and I have never been afraid of public speaking. We had, I remember when we were when we had the race for the USG president, it was Richie Walter and Jesse, something or other, and myself, and I have always been good on my feet, do you know? And so, I think I kind of surprised people and maybe surprise myself at, you know, being able to sort of hold my own, you know. And Richie was very, very bright, you know, very smart and very quick. So. And then, of course, when I was in publishing, when I was when I was in the acquisitions part, I had to do sales meeting presentations, which I have always said was one of the best [crosstalk] IG: 53:03 What do you think owes to that ability to speak? CW: 53:06 I have never. I have I do not know why, but I have never been shy about it. When I was in the sixth grade for our graduation, I had to recite Emma Lazarus poem, you know, in front of the whole auditorium, and I was fine with it. Just never was afraid of it. I do not know why. Maybe because my parents, my parents were very encouraging. Do you know what I mean? They always sort of thought I could do anything. And I think you feel that when you know, when you are a kid, if you are you know, if you get that kind of support, IG: 53:37 Right. If you get that kind of support, I, for one, have acted on the stage. I have no fear, all right about and yet, public speaking is a very different matter. CW: 53:50 Yeah, what was good, was good training for preaching. [laughs] IG: 53:53 It was very [inaudible] Do you ever look back on your years in college to draw lessons that you want to impart to your children today. Do you ever look back at yourself during those years and draw material for your service? CW: 54:12 I do not know. Not-not necessarily. No, I do not, I do not remember. I do not think I do that, but I do. I do look back and I think how fortunate I was to be able to get a first-class education without bankrupting the family. Of course, no debt. I mean, we did not have debt. Then thank you. You know, I have, I tried to take out, I took out a loan when I went to seminary, and, you know, so I now paying off a student loan, but I never had any of that before. My entire education was practically free. I mean, up until seminary and University of Toronto, I got a I got a scholarship there, so that also helped, and it was not that expensive either. I think I just, I was glad for the people that I met. I was glad for the good, very good, you know, teachers. That I had, and just forgetting, frankly, for having a liberal arts education, I really, I find it, you know, kind of sad that children, practically in preschool, have to choose a career, you know, and all they are doing is being trained like, pardon me, seals, to do something. And you know that to me, that that was not what education was for. I mean, it was, you know, when we were, you know, young kids, young adults, it was kind of the last time that you could just do something because you wanted to do it. Do, you know, they did not, you did not have to do it because it meant you could get a promotion, or you did not have to do it, because this was part of the job, whether you liked it or not. I mean, you know, and-and you had a chance to maybe explore and learn things that you did not even know, you did not know, [laughs] which- IG: 54:13 Small college community yes were given that opportunity. CW: 54:13 Yes. And, of course, the other thing is, and I asked this question when we went to the 50th reunion, because now that Harpur has, what, 16,000 students, or something like that, that is everybody. It is not just the undergraduate. But, you know, the classes that we took were taught by full professors. We did not have TAs you know what I mean, we did not. I mean, yes, they were large lectures, but even the discussion classes were led by real faculty members, you know, and I always felt that. And I asked the president of they had a question-and-answer thing. I said, you know, that was one of the great things. In fact, both Susan Calkins had gone to Purdue for the first year, I think, and-and-and Terry Shortell had gone to Penn State, they both transferred in. And one of the reasons they transferred in was they said we were in these huge rooms, but the professor was way down there, and all we saw were teaching assistants, you know. So, I mean, in that one-on-one interaction, and I always thought that that was one of the best features of the Harpur that I knew was that you really got the benefit of up-close work with somebody, you know, and- IG: 54:13 Probably after class extracurricularly- CW: 54:49 Yeah, to a certain extent, but yes to a certain extent. But I think that was important. I really do. I think that, you know, it was a, it was a really good liberal arts education, and I was very glad that I had it. IG: 55:31 What-what are, what were some, you know, life lessons that you can share with I know that that the educational experience now is very different than when it was in your time. But what advice can you give to- CW: 55:31 Oh my God, you are going to miss your train. IG: 56:56 Oh-oh. CW: 56:56 What time, what time is your train, 4:57? IG: 57:25 4:57. CW: 57:25 We are not going to make it. IG: 57:25 We are not going to. I will take the next [inaudible] CW: 57:25 What-what time is it, you know? IG: 57:25 I will have to [inaudible] CW: 57:25 I guess, I guess, the thing I would say is, you know, and obviously we, most people, especially these days, start out with an idea of where they are going, you know. And I would just say, be open to the possibility that you may change your mind and to not just you know, not just to take you know, courses that you think fit in with this career that you have chosen for yourself, but maybe take something that is a bit of a more of a challenge, or just that might interest you for some reason that you know, you know, because, as I say, it is probably the last opportunity to kind of just do something because you want to right now, and not because it is necessarily prescribed. I mean, I have no idea what the you know, how much, how many required courses there are these days and how they you know, because we had sort of two years basic education, and then from then on, it was kind of what you want, you know, what you chose to do, you know, with distribution requirements and that sort of thing. But I would, you know, I think that would be my major advice is to, you know, try things out while you are there. You know, while you have the chance to do it before. You know, you have to support yourself, and you have to support a family or something like that. You know. IG: 57:25 Do you have any concluding remarks? CW: 59:22 No, as I, as I said, I am very I am very grateful for the for the experience, the education and the experience that I had at Harpur, and for the people that I met and the faculty members that I met, and, you know, to be able to have a first-class education within the means of someone, you know, who's not well and does not have to come out with this. There were no, there were no debts then. But I mean, in other words, that the opportunity was there and you were not constrained by, oh, I cannot afford that. You know, that was, I think that I felt that that was really. Really important that it was a really first-class education that did not, you know, bankrupt my parents so and, you know, again, having the residential experience, I think, was also very important to, you know, really sort of be, you know, with people, and also you know, you know, as an only child, I sort of had to learn to take care of myself, and you know, and I did, basically. IG: 1:00:31 Thank you very much. CW: 1:00:32 You are very welcome. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reverend Canon Claudia Wilson Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilson, Canon Claudia ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Reverend Claudia is a semi-retired priest at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Yonkers. Before her ordination into the priesthood, she worked in publishing. At Harpur College, she was the first woman elected head of SDC (Students for Democratic Change), the progressive student government. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Claudia Wilson.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:33 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bfbc9010bb6a622230d65c2e5f0c0053.mp3 1d9e963c92e51f94281ffbf16692a585 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6f7680f6f0427c6f48f1624b976e9f90.jpg 765c628fe2614bbf34440c64eacf8e9d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carol Reisner Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text Carol worked as a branch librarian with the NYPL for 34 years. She grew up in the Bronx. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Carol K. Reisner Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) CR: 00:04 Now? IG: 00:04 Yes. CR: 00:05 Okay. My name is Carol Kraut Reisner. We are sitting in in Manhattan, 105th Street and West End Avenue. I will soon be 72 in another couple of weeks, and I graduated from Harpur in 1966. IG: 00:28 And just tell us what you do. CR: 00:35 I am now retired, but I worked for about almost 34 years, 33 years as a librarian for the New York Public Library in the branches, among other things, I was most of the time a young adult librarian, until, as they say in the brownies, I flew up and I became an adult librarian and I-I enjoyed the variety and connection with the public and books and stuff. So, most of my career, I was very happy. IG: 01:16 That is wonderful. Um, where did you grow up? CR: 01:20 I grew up in the Bronx. I am happy to say that the Bronx is coming back, but I grew up at a time where I think back you played in the street, you did not- parents did not worry about that. I went to public schools. I have gone back to my neighborhood, and then happy to see my building is still standing and looking not looking bad, though there are other buildings in the neighborhood that were torn down. It was a mixed neighborhood of Catholics and Jews. I would say lower middle class Catholic and Jews. And now it is much more Latino than it that is the Bronx. IG: 02:11 Right. CR: 02:15 It was a long walk to school. I remember that I was at the edge of our- the boundary of the school district from elementary school, but I did go every day, came home for lunch every day, and near public transportation, not far from shopping, not too close to parks, but we so we played in the street and um, thought nothing of it. IG: 02:41 It was a different time. CR: 02:42 Absolutely a different time. Absolutely a different time. IG: 02:45 Where you felt safer to be on the street. CR: 02:48 Oh, absolutely I was- when I became a parent, we did not let our children play outside on the street by themselves. IG: 02:56 Who were your parents? What did they do? CR: 03:00 I had one first I want to say that I did not know it at the time, but knowing people and their experiences are wonderful parents who did their best. My father was born in Poland, and I see him as a typical immigrant. Thank God he was able to come with his family. In 1922 with his mother and his brothers and sisters, not knowing English, he was sponsored by an uncle who apparently brought the whole family over. To me my father represents the Americans, the American success story of someone who came, went to school, who married, had a family, had his own business, who never imagined and he was handicapped. He had had polio in-in Europe. So, he-he told me at the end of his life that he had a marvelous life, better than he had ever imagined it, he-he could have. IG: 04:10 That is lovely. CR: 04:11 My mother was born here, but her mother came from Europe. She was one of nine. My father was one of five. CR: 04:20 So, what did your father end up doing? CR: 04:21 My father had a collection agency, and that is he worked for others for years, and then he opened, had his own business. My mother, my mother did graduate from college. I think she was the only one in her family. She went to Hunter, but she graduated in 1933 in the middle of the Depression, and she could not get a job, and so she did various and sundries, and it was until much later, in fact, when I was in college, that she went back and picked up whatever ed courses she needed. And she worked several years as a sub, particularly for kindergarten, early grade. Why? So that she could help put my brother through law school. IG: 04:22 Wow. CR: 04:22 And I think my father had some college, but so that was that. I mean, I do not know what else to tell you about my parents. IG: 04:22 Right. So-so, you know that-that is, that. I just need a little bit of background. So did they encourage you with your education [crosstalk] CR: 04:22 There was never a question that we were going to college. That was not a question. When I went to library school, they told me what, they were not good. They were not going to pay for that. And I said, "What kind of parent are you? You are not going to pay for your-" and I- they did not, I mean, they said that we-we paid for undergraduate school, which was a stretch. My brother have not had an older brother who went to City College, so they did not pay for that, right? So, sending me away was a big deal. IG: 05:55 So, you did not get a regent scholarship. CR: 05:57 I did get a regent scholarship, but they still had to pay for room and board. IG: 06:00 Yes. CR: 06:00 Which I know in the, in the in dollars today, seems like chicken feed, but it was $1,000 a year was not nothing. IG: 06:08 No, exactly. CR: 06:10 And, and so they said, "No, you will have to get a loan." And I did get it- I got a loan that I think I had to pay something like $27 a month for, I do not know how I did pay it off. IG: 06:24 Right. So, what were- what was your thinking about Harpur College? Why-why did you want to go there rather than to CUNY here, to Hunter College, or it was, or any other SUNY? CR: 06:40 It was an opportunity for me to go away from home, and believe it or not, my-my mother encouraged me to do that. She wanted me to do that. And I certainly applied to city. And I think I applied to city, I applied to Brandeis, and I applied to Harpur, and it did not get into Brandeis, which is probably good idea. And there it was. We had visited Harpur. It was small, which I thought might be a good idea. That is where I was accepted, and that is where I went. I had come from a very big high school, which I cannot say that I loved. High school was not the best years of my life. And there we were. I was accepted. It was, you know, I was something that they could afford. And off I went. IG: 07:28 What was the reputation of Harpur back then that you knew of? CR: 07:41 It was excellent. IG: 07:42 It was excellent. CR: 07:43 [crosstalk] only Harpur College. It was the liberal arts college of this- of SUNY, of State University, had a very good reputation, good enough for me. And I think I tell I think that it lived up to its reputation. I thought it was an extraordinary school, looking, seeing where my kids went, rigorous. I think the kids who went there were really sharp. The teachers were not all, of course, not all, but I had more than my share of superior teachers. CR: 08:27 I was very young. I would never, I- IG: 08:29 Right. IG: 08:29 How old were you? CR: 08:32 I was, I was 16. IG: 08:34 Yeah. CR: 08:35 I never think that that is a good idea. On the other hand, because it was a smaller school. It was not and I had my first boyfriend, so I, you know, I, for me, it was fine. It was what I could handle. One of your questions, I remember things, did you think it was a party school? Oh, my God, what a question. It was the anti-party school. At least for me, it was the anti-party school. People study. I mean, worked all the time. I remember I had a boyfriend who perhaps was not as studious as I-I said, “Well, I am sorry, got to do my homework” and-and people did. I mean, I am sure there was, there were kids who hang out, hung out in the student center, and played bridge. And I was not that. I was not that. IG: 09:30 What did you study? CR: 09:31 I was, in the parlance of Harpur, I was a social science major with a specialization in history, which meant there was a lot of reading. IG: 09:40 Why did you choose that area of studies? CR: 09:43 I love history. IG: 09:45 So, did you have an idea of what that would entail? When you- CR: 09:49 Did I know the rigor of what it was, [crosstalk] I mean, I love, I still love history? I love history. IG: 09:57 Right-right. CR: 09:57 So, there was no, I had no-I did not hem and haw. IG: 10:01 Right. CR: 10:02 American history, I took because I figured it was a little bit less, you know, spread out. It was something that could be, could actually be studied in a- IG: 10:16 Right. CR: 10:18 Oh, no, I had these. I had wonderful history teachers. IG: 10:21 Well, could you name- CR: 10:23 Dr. Mason [Bernard Mason]. IG: 10:25 Right. CR: 10:25 I had for several classes. I used to say that, and unfortunately, I know he has died, but his class, you got three in one, you got his lectures, you got the readings and you got your paper. I took many of his courses. He was actually my advisor. Dr. Rollins [Alfred Rollins], who was another wonderful teacher, I think, was 20th century. Dr. House [Albert House], [inaudible] for Civil War era. Those are the ones that I have not I did not look them up. I do not remember so much the others, but those are the names that just come immediately off the top of my head. IG: 11:14 What-what are some of the illuminating things that you learned from your professors that you did not know before about America and your life? CR: 11:26 You know, everybody takes American history in high school. So, taking American history in college was a revelation, because you got to understand in a way you did not in high school, that nothing was inevitable, as we feel, oh, the American Revolution, of course, we were going to win. Ah, not so fast. Things had to happen that there are more than one way of looking at things there the economic interpretation of American history, which was more in vogue in the (19)60s. One of the papers I had to write was answering a question, which was that, was it maybe about Hamilton, the views, was it Hamilton or in the world's history about Catherine, the Great. You-you had to read the historians from different eras and how their-their feelings about it, how they approached their conclusions were different with the times. And I did not know that from my high school. It was so much. It was it just opened your eyes. It just opened your eyes. In fact, I even remember the little books we have. Probably still have them, the different interpretations of a particular event that was exciting. And actually, as a result of that, I decided I would not teach American history in high school. I would be a teacher because I felt that I would not be able to do that in high school, and that it would be, it would not be right, it would sort of be a, sort of a lie. That is what made it very exciting. And he and right, even then now, compared to what now, it is included that women did not get a big shake and-and we did not hear about the so much about African American take on things. I mean, obviously history, the study of history, changes over time. But even then, it was just an eye opening, eye opening to me. IG: 13:46 Did that inform the way that you looked at current events? CR: 14:04 Oh, yeah, it still does. IG: 14:06 Yeah. CR: 14:06 It still does. And I and, yes, we do not repeat history. But if you do not know history, you do not know how we got here, and we did not just, you just, you know, it is not like a baby just is born with nothing we have, and other countries have history. And I think it is a- it is really too bad that our country as a whole does not have a sense of history. They think they just live now. They do not remember anything. They do not know why we got here. They-they and is it the fault of our education system, perhaps. That is right, they do not make connections. And yes, it does not do it does indeed inform how I look at things and what I believe IG: 14:55 And what you believe. CR: 14:56 Yes. IG: 14:57 How-how? Well, I mean, you just stated your beliefs that there is- CR: 15:04 Because there are different ways of looking at things, and if you get one point of view all the time, you are getting one point of view. IG: 15:11 Yeah, of course. Um, you know, there are different truths, there are different perspectives on each issue, which-which pivotal events of the time. The (19)60s were very turbulent years. You know the- CR: 15:32 I cannot say- IG: 15:33 -fabric of our culture changed. What events do you remember from your um- CR: 15:40 I cannot say that I participated in them. I do, but I do remember that there was a group of people who would not eat lunch and say that they wanted the money that was saved by not only going to a certain anti-war organization, it was their protest. I did not participate in that. That that was even I became much more aware of that in the in the (19)70s than I did in (19)60s. I was not a rebel. I- so I, and I am still really not a rebel, depending on who you who-who you speak to. IG: 16:29 Right. CR: 16:31 Certainly, that was going on, um, the-the-the freedom, the sexual revolution. I did not participate in that kind of thing. What I do remember was that when I started at Harpur, there, you had to be in your room at 10:30 there was room check by the RIS. By the time I graduated, I and when I got there, seniors had the privilege of having a card that they could stay at whatever time. I think it was a junior. You got two of them, maybe as a as a sophomore. I remember if you got one night that you could check, you know, did not have to be back by, just by the time, by the time I graduated, I think everybody could get a card to check out, you know, that kind of stuff. IG: 17:26 Just remind us, what year did you graduate? CR: 17:29 I graduated (19)66. IG: 17:30 Okay. CR: 17:31 (19)62 to (19)66. I remember being annoyed. We were all annoyed because it was the senior privilege, and now it was not such a privilege anymore, because everybody had it. So, I am thinking back and of the other it was mostly the war not not the cultural stuff of freedom for women or gays were not a part of it at that time, sexual revolution, I am sure there was. I did not smoke pot. I just- I was not- IG: 18:09 You were very young also. CR: 18:10 I was very young and pretty naive. You know, I was not one of the swinger city kids. IG: 18:19 Right. CR: 18:22 So, I do not remember really participating in any of those. IG: 18:26 Did you participate in any other student groups? CR: 18:31 It was not- no, I was not a big joiner. I remember I tried out for a play once, but I did not. I cannot remember if I did I to- I do not, I do not remember. No, I was not active. It was almost as if that is a I had my schoolwork. I had a boyfriend, which was a big deal for me. I had my-my I did not have that many friends, but my roommate and I were good friends. In fact, we still are, and had some others that and, and that was as much as I could handle to tell you the truth. IG: 19:08 Yeah, probably. CR: 19:09 It was for me. It was, [crosstalk] I look back, I thought about it, and I- IG: 19:14 Because you were a young person, yeah. CR: 19:14 I am sorry that I did not spend more time socializing, because when all of a sudden, done. You make friends there that sometimes you keep them for life. And what I have learned, you know, what have, do not always, I do not remember. IG: 19:32 Okay, but you know, what were you mentioned the Vietnam War? What were your feelings about that and, and what did your friends discuss [crosstalk] right- about it? CR: 19:47 So, I think when I started out, I thought, "Oh, well, you have to support your government." IG: 19:52 Right. CR: 19:53 Like, again, the old thing, government is right. They have a point. Otherwise, you would not be doing this. And then, as you start, you know, reading a little more, or talking to people, or they you get, you start questioning. I certainly was not in favor by the end, by the time I left, and I do remember after I graduated, I remember going down with other people to Washington from, you know, these marches that there was a big- IG: 20:26 With people, other people, not from Harpur? CR: 20:30 After, right after library school even. IG: 20:33 Were you afraid that your boyfriend might get drafted? Was there that [crosstalk] or was that too early? CR: 20:43 I do not remember conversations about that. I do not remember I do not remember that being in front and center. I had an older brother, and he was given a medical deferment. So, there must have been, we did not know that there must, but I think that was also later, because they were still in school and-and I think they were going on, so maybe there was more talk about it. And since I do not remember, I do not remember anybody tearing up there, you know, you start, start mixing up events, and I do not really know remember if there was anything like that on campus at the time, earning of the draft cards. IG: 21:44 Do you remember Kennedy's assassination? CR: 21:46 Oh-oh! IG: 21:47 Where were you? CR: 21:47 Oh, okay, I will tell you exactly where I was. I was in my history class; I think a Dr. Mason class. We were early, right? And one of the guys I had befriended, who had been in the army, he was older, so I think I was there at one class started at 10 after one, at about five after one, he pops he saw me, pops in, and he said, Kennedy's been shot. And when the- our professor walked in, and somebody said about, he said, "What?" And he dismissed us, and we went, I went to this to the Student Center, to the snack bar, and found people, and I think we were listening on the radio, because I do not remember exactly when he was pronounced dead. It was in the afternoon, I think, and it was like, "Oh my God." And I think we watched the funeral on television. IG: 22:57 Right. CR: 22:57 And also remember, were not we there in the Cuban Missile Crisis. IG: 23:04 Right. CR: 23:04 That was another time people were really scared about that. They were very scared. Why was it during, why do I remember sitting also in the cafeteria, and it was dark and talking about and worrying what the hell was going on, that this was not a joke. And, you know, nuclear weapons, and was there going to be a war? I cannot- is that interesting? Cannot remember the dates, but I remember, really, people were scared. IG: 23:38 Right. Were you afraid? What-what-what were your fears about the Kennedy assassination, that something- CR: 23:47 Oh, my God, that something like that- IG: 23:49 -terrible would happen, that something like that, the assassination itself- CR: 23:53 -could happen, and then we will, we will, you know what it all mean. And I think, I think it was just the shock of somebody killing you, President. IG: 24:05 Right. That we were so vulnerable. CR: 24:08 Whoever heard of that we did not know. I mean, later on, you know, you found out that, that it was before us when Harry Truman also was subject to assassination, we but we did not know that I was- IG: 24:20 Right, but Lincoln- CR: 24:22 And that, yeah, Lincoln, look at all you know, when the country was in turmoil. Oh, my God. I mean, that was before all the others that happened, that the commonplaceness of assassination and killing, this was, it was like, almost unbelievable. IG: 24:44 So somehow, you know your CR: 24:47 It is[crosstalk] your foundation, I mean [crosstalk] IG: 24:49 Right, exactly. CR: 24:50 It does. It does. IG: 24:51 That is what I would think. CR: 24:52 Yeah. IG: 24:55 So, when you graduated, um, uh, what was, you know, give us an overview of your career trajectory. Did you go on to graduate school or- CR: 25:08 Yes. IG: 25:08 -right away? And where did you go? Where did you live? CR: 25:11 I-I remember going to my guidance counselor in the, I think, the end of my first term of my senior year, when he had to start thinking, and I had decided when teach, that is what I had decided. So, what was I going to do? Actually, went because I had no clue. And I remember him, and I do not remember who he was. Was-was it Dr. Mason, I do not remember if it was, if he was my it could have been, he said, "Well," he said, whoever said, "Two possibilities, you could go into museum work and you can get a master's in museum work at the University of Maryland." IG: 25:57 Yeah. CR: 25:57 That [inaudible] museum work, whatever- for some reason- IG: 26:01 Why did he suggest that? Why did he- because of history. CR: 26:04 Because of history, I love history, um that that was a something that might be helpful, and all I could think of was cut and pasting, making signs do I cannot cut and paste for beans. And the other thing was to become an archivist and go to library school. Oh, well, that sounded okay, and that is what I did. Great. I applied to graduate school, and I went to have decisions get made. I was this. I applied. I did not want to go home either. I did not want to go to New York. I did not want I did not want to go Columbia. So, I applied to University of Michigan, and actually the University of Wisconsin, and I was accepted, but the guy was dating was going to the University of Wisconsin, and I thought it would be a better idea not to go to the same place. And I went to University of Michigan. It was a very different experience. Let us- IG: 27:16 Because it was larger? CR: 27:17 It was huge, a whole different experience. Let us just say that I always give money to Binghamton or SUNY, which maybe they do not think it is enough, but I always give money. I have a very and I never give money to Michigan, one because it is so big. I was only there for a year. I mean, that was the good thing about my masters, that it was, it was only 30 credits. I could do it in a year or a little more. I did not have to take, I could take two courses outside of library school, which I took, one in history and one in geography. You can see, and you know, is okay. It was okay. I always felt that the-the campus itself was an interesting the first semester, I lived off campus, what a disaster that is, and I finagled my way the second semester into living closer to the campus in an apartment. I always thought that there was a great divide between the undergraduates and the graduates, the-the undergraduates I stereotype as sweater sets and the graduate students like me. You know, schlubbies here. I remember going to them. This is- we went, we went to the football games. I thought this was a hoot coming from Harpur. The first thing you IG: 28:45 Which had no sports to speak of. CR: 28:47 Well, they did. They had a track and field then basketball, but they would not [crosstalk] and I graduated. No, it expanded because it was starting these graduate programs. But the first day on campus at the University of Michigan, you learned two things. You learned to hate Michigan State, and you learned this fight song. I thought, I thought this was crazy. [laughs] IG: 29:14 Do you remember the fight song? CR: 29:16 Of course, hail to Michigan. IG: 29:22 Yeah. CR: 29:23 it was, it was a hoot, [crosstalk] it was a hoot. And I was library schools is library school. That is a whole other world of experience. IG: 29:34 Okay, so you graduated- CR: 29:35 And I graduated from there, [crosstalk] and I came back to New York after toying with the idea of going to California, until I realized I did not know a soul there, and even more important, I do not drive, which I still do not drive, and I thought that- IG: 29:52 Woman, a woman after my heart, I am learning. CR: 29:57 Well anyway, it is good for you, because I am- one of the- that is probably the most, the most important thing I wish I had mastered. I am not going to do it now. I am and that is where I live in New York and but I came back home. I lived at home for a year because while my parents- let me, we are happy to have me home and-and when I said, "No, I am going to move out," they did not offer to help me. So, I had to stay home and earn, you know, I would save money so I could move out. And I did move out with a friend from high school. And in fact, we moved to West 95th Street. We sublet an apartment from-from gals I met on a trip who wanted a two-bedroom apartment, and they moved to 108th and they we sublet their apartment on 95th Street. IG: 30:55 So, what was the Upper West Side back then? CR: 30:59 Oh, it what- in some ways, I am sorry it is not more like that now. Now it is, this is, this is too upscale for me. It was much more of a mix. Now, on the other hand, we lived through the-the (19)70s and (19)80s of New York City, which was not great, but in terms of neighborhood, they were supermarkets, there were movie theaters, there were shops, there were a mix, much more of a mix of folk. IG: 31:36 And by saying not, not so great. Well, there was a crime element. CR: 31:41 Well, absolutely I was, I was held up in the elevator- my- in that building, I can remember it now, my-my fear and my and they took my watch, which was a present, graduation present from my parents. And I remember, I did not want to tell them, and I know I still have it, though it is I remember buying my own watch that was as similar as I could to it so they would not know. But I- yes, I have had other incidents too, yes, and the subways were undependable. And, you know, on the other hand, it was more affordable. I mean, I started my career as a librarian, $7,000 a year. IG: 32:24 And where did you start? CR: 32:26 I- my- the New York Public Library. [crosstalk] They took me when I first started, still living at home, and that was in the Bronx. They sent me to a branch in the Bronx, and I will tell you, I had never been to that part of the Bronx in my life. IG: 32:44 What- describe it. CR: 32:45 This was, now, I grew up near Yankee Stadium, and there were part six, six story apartment buildings, one next to another. Some were walk up, some were elevated. There were, you know, sidewalk apartment house. All of a sudden, I was sent to this area, the Bronx. They are private homes. People had gardens with roses. It was much more open. I was like, "Oh, my God, this is a completely different section of the Bronx." It took me an hour to get there. By the time I moved out a year later, I had trained. I had gone to another branch, which was closer actually to my parents’ home, but it was an easier subway trip. That is why you asked me where I started. I remembered those trips, and when I worked in the library, I worked, I only worked for the New York Public Library, but there was opportunity when I started to advance and change so you so I ultimately left the Bronx and started working in Manhattan, and even then, I worked in branches. I worked in the office. I worked at big branches. I ultimately, I ended up back. I got married, I became pregnant, I had a baby, and I took some time off, then when it was time for me to go back, I only went back part time. And an opening came up in my neighborhood branch, and at first, I was leery about taking it because, you know, it was a chance to get away from the neighborhood. IG: 34:40 And what kind of position was that? CR: 34:42 That was as young adult librarian. CR: 34:44 And I ultimately took that position, and it was wonderful, because I could walk to work. I was in work at 10 minutes, if anything happened, I was home like my kids went to school. I could pick them up and take them to the doctor at my lunch hour, and I stayed at that branch for like 20 years. It became another library family, and then I ultimately left there and ended my career at another branch that opened up on near Columbia, also that I could work at. That was a less happy experience. And by the time I retired, I was very happy to go because the library had changed dramatically, and the things that were priorities when I started out were no longer priorities. IG: 34:44 I see. IG: 35:31 Such as. CR: 35:32 Well, it was the introduction of the computer and less that changed the kinds of people who came in, what they expected of you. By that time, I was no longer a young adult librarian, but once the computer came in, the kids used to come in and ask, assume that I would do their homework for them. You know, I am doing a "I am doing a paper on- could you please print out the-the and" I- it is almost as if they felt that you are going to press my-my button and out of my mouth is going to come your-your paper. And that really was, did not sit well by me, you know, let and the people who started coming in just wanted to use a computer for different things. One, I was not all that adept at it. And two, I liked the book person, so there was less of that. And the emphasis, there were budget crunches. I worked. I worked at a really good reading branch. They cut the book budget to nothing. I just, I- what kind of public service was that, you know, [crosstalk]And I did not make I did not like it. I did not like it. IG: 35:32 But you mentioned that you started out as a y [young adult] librarian, and you must have, you know, seen students through with their homework and their education. So, you had, you had a closer relationship with them. CR: 36:32 Absolutely. I mean, I and I also stayed at branches. There was a lot of turnover, but by the time I got to Bloomingdale, I had different kinds of experiences. I worked in the office of young adult services. I had been I took other administrative things. When I came back, I came back there as part time. So, is it back at the beginning as a young adult librarian, so developed my collection? I knew the kids. I knew the parents. I was I was like and I got a reputation because I lived in the neighborhood too, that if a kid was having trouble, talk to me, and I would tell I would calm them. I would tell them not to do the work. Do not do your children's homework if they are going to fall flat on their face. Let them fall in flat on their face in junior high school, let them learn you got. And then there were people who would thank me, and they were people who told me to mind my own business, you know, or I would tell the parent, they come in with their kids, and they could, parents would start talking to me, and I would say, "Would you mind? I think I would like to talk to your child, if you would just wait over here," you know, because, and I did, I did get satisfaction, and I get satisfaction, well, it is now mostly adults, but I have had even kids, you know, I live in the neighborhood. Years later “Did you work at the library?" IG: 36:48 Oh, that is nice. CR: 36:48 I mean, that is you helped me. You, you know- CR: 36:48 Right. What was the YA [young adult] age group that you serve from 13 to 17, or? IG: 38:44 Yes, it was junior high school, high school. IG: 38:49 I see. CR: 38:49 That-that is about 12, 13 [crosstalk] IG: 38:51 Right, reminds me. CR: 38:53 Right. IG: 38:53 I do briefly was a ya- CR: 38:55 Oh yeah. IG: 38:56 -branch for the Queen's public library. CR: 38:58 Well, it was the same. [crosstalk] were you there? IG: 39:03 In before returning to graduate school. I was, I mean, I had done my library degree, but I was there from, I think, 1984 to (19)86. CR: 39:17 Because I worked with Ellen Libretto. IG: 39:19 Oh, I remember her. CR: 39:20 You remember her? [crosstalk] Queens. IG: 39:22 Yes, I remember very well. CR: 39:25 Yeah. IG: 39:26 She was, you know, she was a dynamo. And- CR: 39:30 Yes, very. Yes, very outgoing [crosstalk] personality. IG: 39:34 I remember her. I remember right. So, you worked and you saw changing neighborhood. Did you still have a connection with you know your friends at Harpur, you mentioned- CR: 39:50 I had one. I have maintained my relationship with one person. IG: 39:58 Right. CR: 39:58 Which was my roommate. We roomed together for four years, and while we were completely different on the completely different, she came from a very small town in Pennsylvania, big city girl, right. IG: 40:09 Right. CR: 40:14 Her father died. She never knew him before she was born. She was a very religious Baptist. I am not a religious Jew. She physically, she was different. She was tall, I was little. Yet we hit it off, and we stayed in touch. And why, I do not see her that much now, because of various and sundry reasons, we, my whole family, used to spend at least a week every summer with them. IG: 40:51 How wonderful. CR: 40:52 And they think of her as Auntie Anne and Uncle Bob. And yes, it was, it was and even now, we were still very different. She is more conservative and much more conservative than I and yet, underlying principles and what we value, it taught me that you cannot really judge like that. You got to talk to people. IG: 41:20 And you can find connections even with people who are extremely who are very different. CR: 41:25 Apparently-apparently are very different. IG: 41:28 Yeah apparently. CR: 41:29 I am very neat. She is a mess. IG: 41:31 Yeah. CR: 41:31 I mean, you could not think of more stories that we could tell. We laughed, but we laughed, and I remember, I do not think she would be upset about I remember rearranging the room when she had to do her paper, because I am very disciplined, and I took my notes on my note cards. You know, I am the that part of the world she is writing her paper at the last minute. She has her 20 books that she is consulting with her markers in it, and we had to rearrange the room so she could the bed would be better access for her to-to do her paper. I remember that, instead of I just remember that, and I used to tell her, see, there is a division. There is an invisible line in the middle. Do not want any of your stuff on my side. My desk was pristine. She told me in the beginning that the first, first semester, she was afraid of me. CR: 42:34 Why=why? CR: 42:35 Because I was very clear. And I also said, "Do not talk to me in the morning." I am very grouchy in the morning. Do not, do not be happy. Do not sing. And I am, I am- IG: 42:48 Do not be happy. [laughs] CR: 42:50 I am very forth. I talk like this. I always have. IG: 42:53 Yeah. CR: 42:54 I do not think she would ever come across anybody like me, because I growl, you know, until I had breakfast and it was okay. IG: 43:04 Is that how other classmates would remember you? What would they say about idea? CR: 43:08 I have no idea. IG: 43:09 You have no idea, but it is, it is- it gives me a sense what my friend Ellen would say about me. CR: 43:15 I have no idea. I have no- I did not. I do not really feel that is one of the regrets, as I said, that I spend more time- IG: 43:26 With the others. CR: 43:27 With making friends. IG: 43:29 Yeah. CR: 43:30 [inaudible] And I think back and I forgive myself, because you can only do what you can do. IG: 43:35 Right. CR: 43:36 And I do not think I am naturally brilliant, but I am hard working. IG: 43:41 Right. CR: 43:42 And I that is what I had to do. I had to do my you know; it was a lot of reading. How to do my reading, and I took notes, and I-I took time. IG: 43:52 Is that advice that you would give to a college student now going to Binghamton to take more time to make friends? CR: 44:00 I would add I would if they could manage it- IG: 44:03 Right. CR: 44:04 -to find more of a balance. I am not sorry. I mean, there you there are a lot of people who say we should not go back to college because I would have worked harder. And I do not say that. I feel that I did that and I enjoyed it, most of it, and I could not, I could not have done it any other way. I mean it. I could not have done it any other way. IG: 44:26 Right. CR: 44:26 So, but yes, and I also would say I did take a lot of music classes. I love that. Dr. Friedheim [Philip Friedheim], that yes, was a wonderful music teacher. Oh, my God, I took anything he taught, even though 20th century music, I took because he taught it. I took an opera class. I do not really like 20th century music or but he was one of the phenomenal teachers. I would say, take those classes, take art, take music, take things. That would, do not shy from them, because those kinds of things are with you for the rest of your life. IG: 45:07 Right. CR: 45:08 You know- IG: 45:10 So go outside of your comfort zone, or it would be explorative. CR: 45:13 That is that is personality. That is your personality. You cannot you have to be true to who you are at the time, be more involved. I am still not a big joiner. IG: 45:24 Right-right. CR: 45:26 I am not that that is- IG: 45:29 So is this, is this, is this the message that you would like to impart to, um- CR: 45:35 I would tell people that I do not know if they I think they have pass, fail now, they think they instituted pass, fail I am not sure. IG: 45:41 Yes, they have. Yes. CR: 45:43 And I would say, use it. IG: 45:45 Right. CR: 45:46 Take a chance. Take a chance on something that you think you would like. That I would do. I would say, yes, friends are important. See what you could see if you can expand that way, because that is now it is a university. Now it is very different. You went Harpur, there were three groups at Harvard. There was the Upstate group, there was Long Island. And there was the city, yeah, and that is the bulk of the- there was the graduate school is just coming in to its own, you know, beginning, but that so those were the three different groups of people that were there. And while I was certainly not a slick city, you know, I was not, in fact, somebody once said to me, "Oh, you are more like the Upstate people," which I did not take as a compliment. My roommate was from Pennsylvania. She was one of the very few outside state people. I had my own stereotypes of these different groups and where I would fit, and I was not an upstate kid, and I was not a Long Island kid, and I did not fit in with the slicker city kids, so I did what I could do. Now, it is a different world there. It is much broader. There are more, I think there are people from- CR: 47:19 International-international students. CR: 47:20 International students. There were very few international students. So, it is a broader world to pick from. You can eat more easily, I think IG: 47:31 So, you feel that you cannot really give advice to the current student population because they are so different. They are- CR: 47:38 Yeah, I do not think they need my advice. IG: 47:39 You do not. They do not. CR: 47:40 I do not think they need my advice, to be quite honest. And secondly, what I see from my own children was they are more absent again, take advice from their peers than they are from [crosstalk] So find out. You know this advice you are not going to listen. Maybe the pass, fail thing, because that is academic, and maybe it is just fine after yourself. I have learned about that. IG: 48:11 What are, what are some of the most important life lessons that you have learned, do you think that could be benefit, beneficial to somebody listening to this interview? CR: 48:22 In life, not necessarily at school? IG: 48:25 Not necessarily at school. CR: 48:27 You change. IG: 48:28 Right. CR: 48:28 You are not who you are when you are 20. You do grow. You do gain wisdom. So, you learn, therefore not to be judged. So judgmental. IG: 48:41 Right. CR: 48:43 I am, you-you through, sometimes, through adversity, you realize what is really important, and maybe not the small stuff. IG: 48:57 Right. CR: 48:57 But that also you cannot people you cannot you have to experience it yourself. The only thing that is taken me a long time to learn, but I am much better, is that you cannot really give advice unless somebody truly wants it. And I know that from with my own children, because I certainly was advice giver until I realized that, you know, I am here for you- IG: 49:36 Right. CR: 49:36 -but I have great faith in you. What do I tell people? My two mantras, at least in terms of their children, I said, you have to live long enough, and you have to have faith, and that is for children. For friends, you cannot fix them. You can, you can listen. IG: 49:54 Right. CR: 49:54 So, listen, wait, if they ask you, because I am actually somebody, when I am telling somebody a problem, I want their advice. IG: 50:06 Right. CR: 50:07 What I am asking for is a different way of looking at something that I that maybe I had not thought of, but I must [crosstalk]but I must be unusual, because most people do not want that. They want to vent. And that is, that is a role too. I think that is really- IG: 50:27 A role of a very good friend or a therapist. CR: 50:31 Well, that right, somebody said to me, make a good therapist, and that might be maybe, except I do not hear everybody's problems, right, I mean, I have other I have certainly have things for myself that it could work on, but that is what I would tell people do not be I am not a risk taker. I-I admire people who do take more risks. I um, when my son came to me and asked me, he wanted to go to study abroad, and asked me what my opinion and I quite honestly said to him, I said, I am not the right person to ask. I am not a risk taker. I took four risks in my life. I got married, I had two children, and we bought this apartment when we did not see it, they all turned out well, not always right away, but they all turned out well. So, I said, "That is what I said. I am not we are not risk takers here, but if you are going to do it, this is a good time to do it." You have no responsibilities. And why not, and why not, IG: 51:42 And why not. That is, that is- CR: 51:44 He did. IG: 51:45 Opening the door for him. CR: 51:46 Absolutely, I did not say no, and we, and obviously we would support him and help him if we could, but, but that is what I would tell people. IG: 51:55 Right. CR: 51:57 If they could hear it, that you have your certain personality you cannot, uh- IG: 52:02 I understand. Do you have any concluding remarks? CR: 52:09 I thought that it was wonderful for me to have had the opportunity to go to Harpur. IG: 52:16 Why CR: 52:17 I thought I got a great education. I just did, even though, by the end, I thought it was too small for me. You know, it is one thing to go to a small to 2000 people, you know, different classes, because, and I advise my children, in fact, to go to schools are a little bigger, not big, but bigger. But I just thought for this little girl from the Bronx who made her way to Harpur had these wonderful teachers. Loved most of her classes, I just have a very warm feeling- IG: 53:01 I understand. CR: 53:01 -towards it and grateful that I could go. IG: 53:05 Well, thank you very much. CR: 53:09 This was fun. IG: 53:09 This was a wonderful, wonderful conclusion. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carol Reisner Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the library profession; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in New York City Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reisner, Carol ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Carol worked as a branch librarian with the NYPL for 34 years. She grew up in the Bronx. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Carol Reisner.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fafffebef941be65092d36a10f5b3196.mp3 b6a9123e6826c0c352cff8e1760d999d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/101f4f3113f561c926ce68ffe38d10ae.jpg cb3282d556d5aa5d3545d1587ebbd9b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leslie G. Ungerleider Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text Dr. Ungerleider is an experimental psychologist and neuroscientist, and Chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition at the National Institute of Mental Health. Ungerleider has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (2000), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (2000), the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences (2001), and the Society of Experimental Psychologists. In 2009 she received the William James Fellow Award by the Association for Psychological Science in recognition of how her research advanced our understanding of brain function and its relevance to public health and also for her mentorship of young researchers. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Leslie G. Ungerleider Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) LU: 00:02 My name is Leslie Ungerleider. I am being interviewed as part of a project of alumni from Binghamton at the time I attended, of course, it was called Harpur College and then while I was there, I was there between 1962 and 1966 and while I attended, it became State University of New York at Binghamton. So, I graduated as an alumni of SUNY at Binghamton, and I understand now it is Binghamton University, but I look back still fondly on my days at Harpur College. IG: 01:01 Wonderful. Thank you so much. Where did you grow up? LU: 01:05 I grew up in New York City, in Queens. I was born in Brooklyn. Grew up in Queens. IG: 01:12 Where in Queens? LU: 01:13 In Bayside New York. I attended Martin Van Buren High School. IG: 01:26 One thing that I did not ask you, I am also I grew up in Queens in Whitestone, so just next door, what is your role currently? What is your position? We did not identify you. LU: 01:41 I am a scientist. I am the chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition, which is part of the National Institute of Mental Health, which is part of the National Institutes of Health here in Bethesda, Maryland. IG: 02:02 Thank you. So, you grew up in Queens and you went to Martin Van Buren High School. What was the expectation for you about going college to college? Were your parents- did your parents go to college? LU: 02:23 My father was a dentist. [coughs] Sorry excuse me. My mother did not. My mother graduated from high school and then was expected to go out and get a job and earn money to help her parents. So, she was a homemaker when I was growing up, but my father was a successful dentist. Both my parents grew up in the Depression. IG: 02:59 And you are uh- LU: 03:00 Both-both, my all of my grandparents emigrated from Eastern Europe. IG: 03:09 Did you have siblings? LU: 03:11 A younger brother and a younger sister. It was expected that we would all go to college, and we all did, and we all became professionals. My brother a lawyer and my sister, a therapist. IG: 03:30 Why- what were your reasons for going to Harpur? LU: 03:35 My reasons were that I was rejected at all the other schools I applied to, I was rejected at Cornell, and I was rejected at Rochester. And so, I had heard about, I had heard of Harpur. I heard it was a small liberal arts college. So, then I applied to Harpur and I applied to NYU. I got into both and decided to go to Harpur because I needed to get away from home. IG: 04:13 I see. Also, did you get a Regents scholarship? LU: 04:18 I did. IG: 04:19 You did so it was probably close to free. LU: 04:23 Correct. IG: 04:28 So, what was the reputation of the college back then? LU: 04:33 All I heard was that it was small liberal arts, and people who went there loved it. IG: 04:42 And what was your intention? Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study? LU: 04:50 I thought I wanted to study psychology, and when I arrived, I discovered that psychology at Harpur was experimental psychology. It was not the clinical psychology that I thought I would be taking, and I discovered that I loved experimental psychology, and so it was a great fit. In my last year, I thought, "Oh, maybe I really want to go to medical school and not go on in psychology." But then by that time, it was too late to start taking chemistry and all of the other pre-med courses. But I often rude not going on in medicine, it would have been much easier at NIH having an MD than a PhD to be successful. IG: 06:03 Could you expand on that? LU: 06:07 Having an MD puts you a step ahead of PhDs at the NIH, and it would have been easier becoming getting promoted, becoming a lab chief with a medical degree. IG: 06:28 So let us, let us stay with Harpur College for a little bit. So do you remember any you know, what are some of the turning points you said that you wanted to that made you appreciate experimental psychology. What did you love about it? LU: 06:50 I love my professors. I love [crosstalk] IG: 06:53 Who were they? Do you remember? LU: 06:56 No, I just remember being inspired. IG: 07:02 How early- LU: 07:06 I love the subject matter. It just resonated with me. IG: 07:11 So, what kind of experiments did you do? Do you remember? What did you learn from them? What- LU: 07:22 I loved working with rats. And it just made a lot of sense to me, and I went on in experimental psychology and only became a neuroscientist later. IG: 07:51 So, what kind of things were revealed to you about cognition through these early experiments that you did? LU: 08:02 Well, I learned about reinforcement. That was, that was a big, big thing about experimental psychology at the time. And then, through my classes, I discovered about this amazing thing called brain stimulation, that electrodes placed in the brain and stimulating certain reward structures would be as reinforcing as eating and drinking. IG: 08:38 How interesting. LU: 08:42 So that reward could come from external events like food drinking, but also from centers in within the brain itself, and those centers could be stimulated and lead to reinforcement and reward. IG: 09:06 So, did you learn that at Harpur College? Were you doing- LU: 09:10 I read about it at Harpur and then that is what I did for my PhD work. IG: 09:17 Where did you do your PhD? LU: 09:18 At New York University. IG: 09:20 Okay, so that-that is all very interesting. So let us, let us return to and what yours were. You did you directly go on to your PhD after graduating. LU: 09:38 I did. IG: 09:39 Okay. LU: 09:40 And I-I applied to, I desperately wanted to come back to New York City, so I applied to only schools in New York was accepted every place, and then because NYU had the opportunity to do brain stimulation work. I went there. IG: 10:04 That is, that is a fascinating line of study. Let us return to Harpur College, just let us stay with Harpur College, just for a while longer. So, you cannot recall the faculty that made an impression, but they obviously did, and they sort of directed your future career. Just what was the- did you make friends on campus? What were your class- what were some of your experience, experiences with residential life and- LU: 10:44 I had a very-very close group of friends when I was there, there were five or six of us who were inseparable. IG: 10:57 Did they- were they all in the psychology? LU: 11:02 No. IG: 11:02 No. LU: 11:03 No. I just, I think, the first day I arrived, I met Linda Gray, who turned out to become my best friend for life. And I met Carol Fox, who turned out to be a lifelong friend until she died. Pam Cerrapo, Susan Novogratzky, most of these women are gone now, sadly. IG: 12:09 So, you know, how did you spend your time together with your friends? LU: 12:15 We used to hang out in the student center and drink coffee and play cards. IG: 12:22 Oh, did you have any-any opportunity to go to Binghamton for dinners, or did you spend all your time on campus? LU: 12:38 We used to hang out at a bar called Gentleman Joe's. We really liked it because it was integrated with people of all color. IG: 12:59 Good. That is interesting. So were you, were you progressive, do you think in your [crosstalk] LU: 13:10 I arrived at Harpur with sort of a bunch of plaid skirts and pretty tops, and I left in jeans. So, it really completely changed me. IG: 13:30 It completely changed you, um- LU: 13:35 It made me aware. IG: 13:36 Yes, and how do you think- LU: 13:39 And of course, we all got very caught up in the anti-war movement- IG: 13:43 I see. LU: 13:44 -in those days. IG: 13:45 Did you- LU: 13:47 Marches on Washington so on. IG: 13:49 Did you take part in them? LU: 13:50 Oh yes. IG: 13:51 You went to Washington and- LU: 13:53 Oh yes. I remember my father being very scared for me, telling me not to sign anything, but he grew up in a very scary time. IG: 14:17 So just tell me a little bit about the political activity that was taking place on campus at the time. LU: 14:24 Well, we all became very-very anti-war, and we knew people who were a little bit ahead of us, who were actually being drafted and being sent to Vietnam. And um- IG: 14:48 How- LU: 14:49 I-I when I remember, I married someone from Harpur, my first husband was Ricky Youngerlighter, and he went to medical school, and I remember after we were desperate-desperate to get him sent to some place safe. And so, he accepted a- he was offered to go to Oklahoma for two years to work with Indians, which is what we did. IG: 15:33 That must have been a really eye-opening experience, right? What did you see- LU: 15:40 It was not. Well. So, Oklahoma is the only place where there are no reservations. So, he simply worked in a clinic, but it was not a very nice place to be. IG: 16:00 So, did this happen after you earned your degree? LU: 16:06 It was after. It was just when I got my PhD. IG: 16:11 I see. LU: 16:12 And he had just finished his medical internship at Albert Einstein. IG: 16:18 Yeah. So, you know, returning a little bit to the student organizing. Where did it take place? How many people were involved? Do you remember? Was there just a handful of friends? LU: 16:38 Oh, no, it was, I mean, Harpur was a very, very progressive school, and so it was, it was almost universal on campus about being involved. IG: 16:53 So large numbers of people went to march on Washington. Did you protest in town at all? LU: 17:06 That, I do not remember. IG: 17:08 On campus? LU: 17:09 There was nothing to protest on campus. The campus was, who would you protest against on campus? IG: 17:20 I have heard of protests on campus. LU: 17:23 I see, I do not remember that. IG: 17:24 You do not remember those. So, did you go to Washington to protest since the Vietnam War? LU: 17:34 The marches on Washington were actually after I graduated. IG: 17:40 I see, I see, I see. LU: 17:43 It was- that would be (19)68 and that was that would be two years after I graduated. IG: 17:48 After you graduated. So, did you belong to any other student clubs? Were you active in any- LU: 18:02 Not that I recall, no. IG: 18:10 Did you feel at the time that the expectations of women students were different than of male students at all? Were you protesting against? Did you have any sense of the feminist movement or that was too early. LU: 18:30 I think that was too early. IG: 18:32 Yeah. LU: 18:38 I think that was too early. IG: 18:41 Did you chafe at the restrictions that existed for women students, such as curfews, earlier curfews for women than for men? LU: 18:55 I do not think I- it even occurred to me. IG: 19:05 Um, so apart from your organizing for you know, to protest against the Vietnam War, what were some of the significant events on campus at the time, and how did you feel about them? LU: 19:26 The one thing I remember, I remember walking over the Esplanade and hearing about Jack Kennedy's death. That was amazing. I remember that was um- IG: 19:45 Just remind us who Jack Anderson? LU: 19:47 No, John F, Kennedy. IG: 19:50 John F, Kennedy. Of course. LU: 19:51 President. IG: 19:52 Of course. LU: 19:53 Died while I was a student at Harpur. IG: 19:57 Right. LU: 19:58 And we all adored him. IG: 20:03 Yes. LU: 20:06 So that seemed like the end of an era. IG: 20:16 Yeah, I remember that day, too. So, you know how- LU: 20:26 Yes, I do not know if I can talk about this. IG: 20:30 Talk, turn it off. LU: 20:31 Turn it off. So, one thing that I do remember vividly is discovering drugs at Harpur, I had barely even had alcohol when I arrived. I was only 16 at the time, when I started. IG: 20:56 Just very young. LU: 20:57 Yes, and within a year, it was just drugs were just everywhere. IG: 21:06 Right. LU: 21:07 And no- no one was drinking anymore. People were just smoking pot all the time. IG: 21:19 What- did that contribute to your understanding of an interest in psychology? Or was just that a release and no part of the culture? Yeah. LU: 21:29 Part of the culture of when you went to parties, you smoked pot, you danced, listened to live music. IG: 21:36 What were you listening to? What music were you listening to? LU: 21:40 The rolling- it started with the Beatles and turned it into the Rolling Stones. IG: 21:46 Did you feel that that sort of contributed to any kind of political, your politicization, or not? LU: 21:56 Part of the whole culture at the time. IG: 22:00 Uh-huh, which meant anti-establishment, or what did it mean for you? Breaking boundaries? LU: 22:13 It meant that all the rules were different. You did not need to follow your parent’s rules anymore. You had you set your own rules, and I-I remember each vacation going home, feeling more and more anxious as I would get closer and closer to home and feeling when I would leave home free and liberated. And it is odd because I became very establishment later. I followed a very traditional course, getting a PhD. I did not tune out. IG: 23:10 And you got married, which also- LU: 23:12 [crosstalk] right, at a young age. IG: 23:16 At a young age, and you were thinking, yet it was an enlarging experience, and- LU: 23:22 It was totally wonderful. I look back on those days, it just totally liberating for me. IG: 23:34 What-what were some of the things that you saw differently during those years that you had, you mentioned that your clothes had changed. LU: 23:47 It was, it was all against consumption. IG: 23:53 I see. LU: 23:53 what- I mean. The whole thing about our parents’ generation was acquisition to get the best the home, what you wore, the car, kind of car you drove, and we were very much against that acquisitiveness. It was good to just wear jeans. IG: 24:29 And yet you were all as a group, very determined students. LU: 24:35 We were all very determined and motivated. And I guess many of us went on to make a lot of money. IG: 24:45 Yes, and yes, and accomplish and be successful. Absolutely. This is my experience interviewing the 20 or so people I have interviewed so far. So how did you, how did you envision your future? LU: 25:02 I had zero vision. I-I feel like my entire life has been accidental. It has just been follow my nose where it leads me. So, I went to NYU because I wanted to go back to New York City, not because, well, a little because of the program, but I picked NYU because of all the programs there. It had a good program in experimental psychology [crosstalk]But my main goal was to get back to New York City. IG: 25:46 Right. I see, I see. LU: 25:53 And then after getting my degree, it was I went to Oklahoma for two years just so that my husband could be in the Public Health Service and serve Indians. And then I wound up at Stanford doing a postdoc, because he went to Stanford to do his residency, so I just had to be at Stanford. IG: 26:26 So, when were you at Stanford? What were you years? LU: 26:29 That was (19)72 to (19)75. IG: 26:35 And what was that experience? LU: 26:38 So that I transitioned from psychology into neuroscience. I started doing brain research in monkeys there, and that set my future. IG: 26:58 So did you continue in the stimulation of [crosstalk] LU: 27:02 No, I know, I [crosstalk] I-I discovered Karl Pribram [Karl Harry Pribram] at Stanford. And- IG: 27:14 Who was he? LU: 27:15 He is a he is often called the Magellan of the brain. He is a neuroscientist who started out as a neurosurgeon and then decided that he needed to do experimental lesions in the monkeys to look at the effects on perception and memory, and he became my mentor at Stanford, and I started looking at perception in monkeys and perceptual deficits that occur after various kinds of brain damage, and that set my career. So, it sort of changed me from rodent work to non-human primate work. IG: 28:25 But, you know, still along a kind of a continuum, right? LU: 28:31 Yeah. IG: 28:32 Because you are working with parts of the brain and seeing what effect they have on behavior. LU: 28:38 Absolutely. IG: 28:39 So, what kind of things did you learn from-from your years at Stanford, were, you know, what, what kind of, what kind of things were you seeing in the monkeys? LU: 28:55 So, we were creating lesions of what was called extra stride cortex, not primary visual cortex, so it was more like association cortex, and we were getting minimal impairments. And I presented this work at a society, one of the earliest Society for Neuroscience meetings. I think it was in (19)74 or (197)5. And at that meeting, another scientist, all established scientist came up to me and said, "You know, we are getting very, very different results from yours." And he said, "I think you should come to my lab for a few years, and we can sort this out." And he introduced himself as Mort Mishkin [Mortimer Mishkin], who was very established, renowned neuroscientist. IG: 30:21 And where was he? LU: 30:22 He was here at the National Institute of Mental Health. And so, I came to do a second postdoc with Mishkin, and that really set my trajectory in science. IG: 30:40 So, what kind of things were you seeing differently? LU: 30:45 So, we were getting minimal effects- LU: 30:47 -of these lesions, and he was getting massive effects. And these lesions were supposed to presumably disconnect primary visual cortex from higher order perceptual processing areas. And so, if the lesion is supposed to disconnect, you should get a massive result. And when I arrived here, we decided, oh, well, we do not actually know what tissue to remove to produce the disconnection. IG: 30:47 I see. IG: 31:33 Right. LU: 31:35 And so, he said, “Well, in order to figure that out, you are going to have to learn some more anatomy, neuroanatomy." IG: 31:45 Right. LU: 31:46 And for the next 20 years, I did neuroanatomical experiments laying out the anatomy of the visual cortex. IG: 31:56 So, you would lay out the anatomy, but somebody else would conduct the surgery, actually, where there was- LU: 32:05 No, I-I- IG: 32:06 You did all of that, you learned all of this. LU: 32:11 And in the process of doing that, and also, we were doing behavioral experiments in parallel. Together, Mishkin and I discovered what we later called two cortical visual systems. There is a system projecting they both originate in the primary visual cortex, but one projects ventrally into the temporal lobe, and one projects dorsally into the parietal lobe, and the ventral system is specialized for recognizing what an object is, and the dorsal system is specialized for recognizing where an object is, and that discovery or that conceptualization is what earned me election to the National Academy of Sciences. LU: 33:26 When did that happen? LU: 33:33 That was in 2000. IG: 33:44 Did it change your life? LU: 33:48 It was pretty wonderful. IG: 33:50 Yeah. LU: 33:50 It was, it was pretty amazing. It probably did. I mean, I was already a lab chief at the time, but the recognition that you get from other scientists is just amazing. And of course, you know, my parents were just over the moon. IG: 34:21 What did they say about you? LU: 34:23 They would, oh, they just, you know, they just- IG: 34:41 Yeah, it is wonderful. It is a wonderful thing. You probably got a lot more media attention, right? LU: 34:48 Well- IG: 34:48 A lot more people wanted to do interviews with you. LU: 34:52 That happened, but often, if there would be a scientific discovery, the media would contact me to ask, what did I think about it? You know, what, what was, what were the implications, things like that. And of course, then I was named to many advised scientific advisory boards- IG: 35:18 Such as. LU: 35:19 Yeah, for example, the group or foundation which awards a lot of money is philanthropic. IG: 35:31 So, you have a, you really have a say in determining who receives a grant. That is that is very major in your line of work. LU: 35:42 And for example, I sit on the brain and Behavior Research Foundation, which gives out a lot of money. IG: 35:54 The- you know the field has advanced over the years that you have been a scientist, what are you know- what are some of the future directions in your line of work? LU: 36:10 Well, I-I think genetics that, I mean, I think, I think in all of medicine, I think genetics is really going to have a profound influence. The field of neurology has made a lot of advances, not so much psychiatry, and I think there are still profound discoveries to be made in psychiatry. IG: 36:53 And DNA plays a big role in that. LU: 36:56 We are still sort of sorting that out. What can we learn from, you know, the genetics of psychiatric illness? IG: 37:07 Is that what you are studying now? LU: 37:09 Yeah, I am- I collaborate. IG: 37:11 You collaborate. What are just clinicians with clinicians? What are just some of the insights? It is a fascinating. LU: 37:18 Well, I mean, I think we are at the starting point. So, for example, we do not know at all what causes autism. Why there is a rise in the rate of autism? Is it environmental in combination with genetic glitches? We have no idea. IG: 37:46 Do you think it may just be a question of it being diagnosed better? LU: 37:55 Some people suggest that. But others say no. IG: 38:05 Do you know the work of Dr. Fishback, Jerry Fishback [Dr. Gerald Fishback]? LU: 38:16 In New York? IG: 38:19 Yes-yes. So, he, I mean, I know that he is an autism expert-expert, and he was my, I worked with him, not as a scientist, but as a fundraiser at Columbia Medical Center. And I know he went on to the Simons Foundation, and so I have seen him on television, LU: 38:40 And used to be at NIH in fact. IG: 38:46 Did your paths ever cross? LU: 38:48 Oh, yeah. IG: 38:48 Yes. LU: 38:49 I have had dinner at his home. IG: 38:50 Oh, wow, it is a small world. LU: 38:53 Yeah. IG: 38:54 It is a small world. It is of specialists. So, what did you see your future work in? LU: 39:04 My future, I have no future. I mean, I think I am. I am at the end of my career; the future is with the young people now entering the field. I mean, I feel like I am- I have lived my life as a scientist. I have achieved my goals, and it is time for me to pass that on to younger people. IG: 39:42 So, are you mentoring currently, scientists? LU: 39:44 Oh, I have a lab full of post docs and one graduate student who I mentor. IG: 39:53 And what kind of experiments are you working on? LU: 39:56 So, what we are working on now is mainly, how do we identify faces, and how do we recognize different facial expressions. And we are also working with a group of patients who have what is called Mobius Syndrome. IG: 40:34 And what is that? LU: 40:35 It is a defect. It is a genetic disease resulting in a defect in the seventh cranial nerve, and as a result, these people experience facial paralysis, which means they cannot make facial expressions. It is actually a newly recognized disease, and they have varying extents. It is, it is so well recognized now that they often go in for facial surgery so that the surgeon can so that they are left with a slight smile right on their face. But we have, we have seen some adults who only recently learned that they have this syndrome, this illness, they were never diagnosed as children. IG: 41:55 So, they are unable to emote with their face right also, it has to do with-with recognizing others. LU: 42:07 We are looking at right now, and what we are finding is that they actually are impaired in recognizing- IG: 42:16 In both ways. LU: 42:17 -others facial expressions. And so, we think that one learns about to recognize facial expressions by imitating others expressions and then getting feedback from one's own musculature. IG: 42:38 That is, that is enormous. That is great. That is a great insight. Thank you. I feel privileged to learn this. LU: 42:51 And so, and we are also looking at what are the which of the areas of the brain. We do a lot of brain imaging in our work. IG: 42:59 Right. LU: 42:59 And so, we are looking at which of the areas of the brain that get activated when one recognizes emotional expression. IG: 43:08 I am just wondering the people with Mobius, could they have been misdiagnosed as having some kind of Asperger's or social impairment? Is that ever the case? LU: 43:25 Not the people that we have been seeing? IG: 43:29 I see, okay, so that is, that is, that is really so what is- LU: 43:37 But I should tell you that we are also seeing a difference between our younger patients and our adult patients. LU: 43:48 How so? LU: 43:48 In that the younger ones do not seem to have this impairment, and we were, there is a conference that is taking place in May, and because they have established a huge network now that this syndrome is recognized, and we want to understand, since it is recognized at such a young age, do they undergo training that enables them to overcome the impairment that we see in the adults? IG: 44:32 So, are you working with therapists of some kind, or? LU: 44:36 There is a whole group of people- IG: 44:39 There is a whole group of people, I am sure. LU: 44:40 -at NIH. IG: 44:42 Do you think that you are responding, or are you one of the innovators, or? LU: 44:48 We just, we just found out. IG: 44:51 You found out. So, you actually, you made a discovery. LU: 44:55 We just attached, or we just found out about this group of patients. And we just thought, oh, this is really interesting. Let us test this idea about the recognition. IG: 45:13 I completely understand. So, when did this happen? LU: 45:17 Within the last two years. IG: 45:18 Within the last two years, has it been published? Have any papers been writing- LU: 45:22 [crosstalk] writing up our first paper now. IG: 45:27 That is tremendous. So, you actually have identified a disorder. LU: 45:34 Well, we did not identify Mobius. We identified this impairment. IG: 45:40 You identify the impairment so and then the causes of it. LU: 45:46 And that is what we are writing, yeah, exactly. IG: 45:49 That is, that is tremendous. That is, that is tremendous. So, you know, how do you I have to go back to Harpur College and Binghamton. Do you think that your- that this early experience in any way prepared you for the just extremely interesting life that you have had of taking risks and in your career and kind of going with your almost gut instinct, or is that a personality trait? LU: 46:31 It is hard to know. IG: 46:32 It is hard to know. LU: 46:34 It was, I think for me, it was the perfect fit because it was the school was, at the time, very small and intimate and everyone, you felt this sense of really belonging, and-and yet safe, where you could sort of express yourself, explore your ideas. So, it was really well suited for me. IG: 47:12 Right-right. LU: 47:14 And-and I think it really gave me the confidence to go out into the world and become something I think maybe for a lot of us. IG: 47:29 That is what I am hearing. LU: 47:30 Because we all became pretty accomplished. IG: 47:33 Yes-yes, it was it. You know, somebody said that it was a- the experience of an elite liberal arts college at a state university [crosstalk] and it gave exposure to many disciplines that you otherwise would not have experienced. You know, you know somebody who is listening to this interview, a student now or later, do you have any advice for this student on how to navigate their- you know, undergraduate career, what should they be thinking about it? What is the biggest lesson that you learned throughout your life? LU: 48:30 Follow your instincts, whatever feels good, right and good, go down that path. IG: 48:39 Hmm, and that is, that is really the lesson of your life. LU: 48:46 Totally. IG: 48:47 Right. LU: 48:50 I mean, even when I arrived here at NIH to do a second postdoc, I had no clue I would get tenure become a lab chief. It did not occur to me, it just it felt good being here, and I loved what I was doing, and so I would just encourage everyone do what you love to do. IG: 49:22 How long have you been at the NIH? LU: 49:24 Since 1975. IG: 49:32 And how do you-you must have had highs and lows in that career. LU: 49:36 So- IG: 49:37 So how do you persevere when, when you are going through the valley? LU: 49:42 In, I think it was in 1978 my postdoc was ending, and that was it. There was no it was ending. That was it. And there was no position for me. And I started looking around what was available in the area. I was looking at administrative positions on the National Research Council. I remember going on interviews, and then another scientist in a different institute, also doing perceptual work, said, "You know, Leslie, I am just, I am getting a new lab. I have these positions. I do not want to fill them yet, I but I want to hold them. I am afraid I will lose them. So can I slip you in to a position you can still work with Mort Michigan, yes, but you will hold that slot for me." And so, I said, "Sign me up." And I did. And then two years later, Mishkin got a real ft, full time employee slot. He put me in it and- IG: 51:41 And you were already kind of in the groove of that work, and you were enjoying. LU: 51:44 Right. IG: 51:45 Yeah, so just so maybe to be open to experience and to-to opportunity, and to just hang on. LU: 51:59 Hang on, hang in there. IG: 52:04 Do you have any concluding remarks? Is there anything that you would like to talk about? LU: 52:19 [crosstalk] say that I still look back on my college days at Harpur as just among the best of my life I really turned into a real person there. I made great friends, friends for life, really. they were very happy years. IG: 53:05 Thank you. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leslie G. Ungerleider Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institute of Mental Health; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – Alumni elected to the National Academy of Sciences; Harpur College – in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ungerleider, Leslie G. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Ungerleider is an experimental psychologist and neuroscientist, and Chief of the Laboratory of Brain and Cognition at the National Institute of Mental Health. Ungerleider has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (2000), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (2000), the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences (2001), and the Society of Experimental Psychologists. In 2009 she received the William James Fellow Award by the Association for Psychological Science in recognition of how her research advanced our understanding of brain function and its relevance to public health and also for her mentorship of young researchers. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Leslie Ungerleider.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-16 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:10 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d471ac9accda23d15b3696aa2683faf8.mp3 25e1c9da6dd44ef15384d4c1ed28dff5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d3ccc19f30787e329d91817cf322b2ab.jpg f7fe4994c9e9d607c621b422465bc181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Deborah Volkell Weinstein Year of Graduation 1969 Biographical Text Deborah Weinstein is the executive director of the Coalition on Human Needs, an alliance of national organizations working together to promote public policies for low income women and children. Deborah has covered politics, crime, and healthcare policies for various news outlets including <em>Medical Marketing &amp; Media</em>, where she specializes in Obesity, Alzheimer’s disease and healthcare costs. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Deborah Wolkell Weinstein Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Okay, so we begin by introducing ourselves and tell us who you are, where we are. So state who you are, where we are, what we are doing, DW: 00:25 Okay. My name is Deborah Weinstein, or Debbie Weinstein, and we are in the Capitol Hilton in Washington, DC, and we are about to do an oral history interview. IG: 00:40 Okay, so Debbie, tell us the years that you attended Harpur, how old you are, and maybe we can start. Where did you grow up? DW: 00:53 Okay, I am 69 years old. I attended Harpur from (19)66 to (19)69. I grew up in New York City, mostly Brooklyn, and then Manhattan. IG: 01:09 So, um, where- so where in Brooklyn, did you grow? DW: 01:17 Most of the years on Ocean Parkway. IG: 01:20 Oh, I know exactly. DW: 01:21 Um, couple of succeeding years before I went off to school in a part of Brooklyn called Mill Basin, but most of the years in on Ocean Parkway. IG: 01:37 And then in Manhattan, where did you- DW: 01:40 Well, my parents moved to kind of the outskirts of Greenwich Village, part of Greenwich Village, and I was already at school, but, of course, came home to visit. IG: 01:53 Okay. And so what we did not mention before is, what is your present role? DW: 02:01 Okay, I am the executive director of a group called the Coalition on Human Needs, which is a group of national organizations that are committed to making improvements or defending programs for low income and vulnerable people. IG: 02:25 So thank you. So when you were growing up, what were the expectations of from your family, of going onto your higher education? Who were your parents and what did they do? DW: 02:42 My parents, Shirley and Joe Volkell, were not college graduates themselves. There were other college graduates, aunts and uncles, but they did not go to college. But certainly the expectation was pretty clear, as early as I can remember, that I would go on to higher education. They did not know much about it themselves, so they could not, you know, offer guidance about where I should go, but that I should go was clear. IG: 03:19 Right-right. So-so you know, why-why did you how-how did you happen to-to select Harpur College rather than did you apply to other schools? DW: 03:31 I did. And as I say, somewhat ignorantly, I did not have any clear sense of where I should go, and I went to a large high school in Brooklyn where you were only allowed to apply to three places, and because they did not have the staff to support more transcripts or whatever. But so my family did not have a lot of money, and so we knew that one school needed to be a state school, and and my grades were good. I was not, you know, like the top of the class, but they were pretty good. And so, you know, we looked for a school that had a better reputation, and-and Harpur clearly was that. So I selected that for that reason, and I selected two other private schools. One was Brandeis because I had heard of it and-and the other was Vassar, and that was because I had an excellent but pretty crazy high school English teacher senior year who talked up Vassar a lot. I think it would have been a disaster choice for me, but at any rate, I was, I was accepted at all those schools, but I did not get adequate financial aid in the private schools to make that a possibility. So I went to Harpur. IG: 05:18 Why do you say I am just curious. It would have been a disaster, had you- DW: 05:22 Because my own, at that time, Vassar was an all woman school, and my own, in a sense, shyness, which I tried to overcome when I started college. It would have been harder you would have met young men in these very, I would guess, awkward settings of socials where people would troop in, you know, as opposed to the much more relaxed and integrated in your whole life. Atmosphere at Harpur, including my husband and I both were in Whitney Hall, which was our version at that very antiquated time of a co-ed door. But that meant that the two wings, one was men and one was women. But it did allow for, you know, much more. You know, on anxiety producing just inter regular interactions in the common areas and all that. IG: 06:34 Right-right-right. Okay, so you, did you go on a regent scholarship? DW: 06:48 I had a regent scholarship. IG: 06:50 So had you visited the college before? DW: 06:54 Yeah, we went on a tour. We visited. It is funny because I have absolutely no recollection of visiting Vassar, but I guess we probably did, but I recall visiting Harpur and Brandeis, so we looked around, but you know, it is very hard. I did not have any easy way of talking to people who went there, so I really felt like I could not have been more ignorant going into I did have a sense that I did not particularly want to go to a school with, you know, 20,000 or more students. Harpur at that time had 3000 which I know is very, very different from now, but that had a certain appeal, seemed about right. IG: 07:46 Right-right. So, what were your- by the way, did you have, I mean, do you have siblings? DW: 07:55 No, I am the- IG: 07:56 You are the only child. DW: 07:57 Right. IG: 08:00 So when you first arrived, what were some of the first impressions? Did you feel also, what were your feelings about being on your own, and did you enjoy it? Was it the first taste of freedom? DW: 08:16 Yeah, I was perfectly confident there, and have very good relations with my parents, but I- they just brought me up to have confidence, so I did not have very much homesickness. I did come- we had moved in Brooklyn when I was going to the 11th grade, and I was very unhappy about the change of high schools, and I sort of grumped around and wasted a year in high school, and sort of got into it a little more in my senior year. But all that did to me is it made me determined when I started college that I was going to jump right into things and not waste opportunities to meet people and do things. So, um, so I came very, you know, sort of primed for that it was crowded then, so they had triples in rooms. So-so I had two roommates, and we got along, and we reinforced each other in that regard that we were going to we were not going to sit in our rooms, we were going to get out there and do things. So I-I enjoyed that very much, and I felt that it was tremendous awakening of meeting people and having a good time and, you know, just kind of doing things, not being too nervous to do things. IG: 09:58 Right. You just wanted to take a bite. DW: 10:04 A large number of students did come from the New York metro area, and irritated the students from upstate or central New York, because, you know, we referred to the city. IG: 10:20 Right. DW: 10:21 And they felt that there were other cities in the state, but, but we were a pretty big cohort. IG: 10:29 Do you think that there were, you know, cultural differences that at first kept you away from the students from upstate New York or not at all?. DW: 10:49 No-no, I did not feel that one of my roommates was from like Dutchess County, I guess in the end, the other was from New York City, we got along just fine. It was really not an issue. And, you know, we did not have as much opportunity as people from other schools, perhaps, to meet people from all over the country. But there-there were some international students. And uh- IG: 11:24 Do you remember where they were from? Where they were from? DW: 11:29 I remember a young man from Iran, and I think he came from a pretty privileged family. So in a way, it is, I do not know how he landed in a state university, but, but that is one person I remember. And you know, there was a little bit of a gulf there between my experience and his, but we were friendly. So. IG: 11:58 Where do you remember whether any students of color at the time or? DW: 12:03 Not so many, but some. IG: 12:05 But some. Um, so what was the reputation of Harpur College back then? DW: 12:16 It had the reputation of being an academically good school. It also, I do not think I was, I know I was not aware of it when I went there. But after while, you know, it had the reputation of being a politically progressive school with, you know, very active anti war um. set of beliefs among the students and-and also a fair amount of at least marijuana use got known for that, I suppose. But that was pretty much it. I mean, when I went there, when I was choosing to go, I was not thinking about it is, you know, the political perspectives, particularly, I knew that it had a good reputation academically, and that is pretty much what I knew. IG: 13:19 Right. Were you involved in any of the political activity? Were you in any student groups? DW: 13:28 I was, interestingly, I came to that more slowly. I participated in demonstrations that were held, but I was not active in the groups that organized them. And I had a friend who was, you know, she, I am sure I had one friend, but I remembered that she was involved with SDS, for instance, and they were planning demonstrations. But I was freeloading and not organizing, but I would show up, but there was regularly. IG: 14:04 So what was that like? Where did you, where did you work? I mean, where did you protest? DW: 14:12 You know, this memory is pretty vague, but I was, but I would, you know, in common areas of the campus. It was on campus, as opposed to, say, going into Binghamton. But they were sedate, you know, demonstrations. There were teachings too, you know, people talking interminably about about the issues, IG: 14:40 But so there was no resistance from there were, there was no resistance from the community to these- DW: 14:49 Well, there were, I mean, there was that town gown type hostilities that the- there were. Lot of people in the general community that did not like the idea of anti war protest, but we, you know, we were protesting on the campus, and so they did not care. I mean, they might have cared, but they were not coming there to [crosstalk] I did not, and I have no recollection of that being done, but it certainly might have been done. I mean, if anybody wanted to prompt the, you know, sort of press coverage of conflict, that would be the way to do it. But I was not so engaged at that time that I was going to be in on, you know, the most conflict prone events. You know, if there was something that I could conveniently go to, I agreed with the anti war sentiment, but I was not, I was not a tremendous of- well, I was not any kind of leader or organizer in-in the anti war movement. IG: 16:10 I see. So you did not. Do you know that any of your friends went to Washington to protest or? DW: 16:18 Oh, yes, people did and I did not at that time that I- my parents were quite protective of me and that I knew they would just hate it if I went off and did that, And I was not willing to to cause that angst, I just was not so this was not my time for that kind of activism. For me, the awakening was more in a different direction, which was the beginnings of project Upward Bound on the campus, and- IG: 17:05 Tell us about that. What was- DW: 17:08 Upward Bound was part of the war on poverty--was a federal program that that reached out to high school students in poor communities, poor high schools called disadvantaged then and brought them onto the college campus for summer programs. They would live in the dorms. They had college students as counselors, tutor counselors, I think they called us and we both assisted in teaching in various ways, but there were also a combination of high school and college teachers who taught them things and-and then, you know, it was summer campus and having other kinds of activities for them. I wound up teaching guitar and singing, sort of, and I even assisted in-in teaching swimming, I have water safety, and so I was just under the supervision of somebody who did, but so did, and of course, was with the students in the dorms, and I did that for three summers, and there was follow up activity in the in the school year. And that was very, incredibly formative for me, because I met young people who- IG: 18:41 What were their ages? So there were seniors, juniors in high school? DW: 18:47 [crosstalk] I remember they were not all seniors. I think it was a mix of high school ages. And in fact, I know that was the case because I remember going to their high schools in the school year, intervening, they were not going right off, IG: 19:06 How ere they selected? DW: 19:07 A teacher in one or more teachers in the high schools recommended them for the program. That is how they did it and and so there probably was, there were probably a lot of things that were wrong with the program, and there still were not that many African American kids. In fact, they wound up, they were sensitive about that, and they wound up having a group of African American kids from Mississippi be part of the program because they were having a hard time getting the schools in the Binghamton area to recommend African American kids to the program, and there were not really Latino kids to speak of. At that time. So, but these were very poor kids. They absolutely filled the bill in terms of of that. And I, you know, I absolutely saw the lack of opportunity that they had and the promise that they had, so, the unfairness, you know, my-my family was not rich, but I had plenty more opportunities than they had and-and expectations as we started out, so I- that was the beginning of a lifelong commitment to economic justice issues which were more I played more of a role in than at the time I was in college in anti war efforts, although I was, you know, foot soldier, but-but, you know, I met one of, one of the girls in my group had false teeth. She was a high school student, and she had never, you know, been able to have any preventive dental care. And so by the time she was, you know, in high school, she had had to have all her teeth pulled, and that was pretty galvanizing. And this one young girl who was very, very smart, and she, was such a loner and an outsider in her school, and it was, this was the kind of program that was made for somebody like her, because she could go into a place and realize, well, there is a place I could go to. I am not just this weird duck that nobody likes. And so there was a young guy who wrote poetry, and you know, this was very much before the rap era. So nobody was writing poetry, and may was alive to be writing his poetry in terms of the attitude towards that. But so I just, you know, it was an opportunity to see what-what potential there was in all of these kids. And so that absolutely shaped what I did for the rest of my life. IG: 22:44 The rest of your life. So just I am curious, how long was this program? A month and a half, two months, three months. DW: 22:54 It was during the summer. So it probably was six to eight weeks, probably eight weeks. That they lived on the campus. IG: 23:05 Right. So did you mention that there was any follow up on these young people? DW: 23:13 There was some we went to the- their high schools during the school year, and I remember not too terribly much, but remember that it seemed their high school seemed like a really forbidding place, you know, you went in there and did not feel like this was a welcoming place or a place that was gonna inspire anybody to go on in school. So I, I do not, I really do not know what happened to the students. It was hard to track them long enough to know, you know, how many of them did actually go on to college. The one, the brightest one that I mentioned, I know that she did, and I sort of kept in touch with her longer than some, um, I even, let us see, I was rooting around. This will be quite useless, because I do not remember anybody's names, but these were, these were students who were in the program. That was somebody who was another counselor. Let us see some of these were. IG: 24:36 Have you kept in touch with any of them? DW: 24:39 For a while, as I say, I kept in touch with one, but I have not been for a really long time. IG: 24:47 Are there any photographs of them? DW: 24:50 Not in this group. This was a high school teacher where, you know now I know I should tell younger people to write the names down, because you think. You will never forget, but then you will forget, but then each and every one of them. But this was a dorky picture of me and my- IG: 25:10 Tthat is very cute. DW: 25:14 So-so these were, you know, it was a wonderful experience for me, and I hope it was useful for them. IG: 25:28 So you said that this was a formative experience. And did it determine what you were studying at the college to begin with? DW: 25:39 You know, it did not really, I was a lit major, and I did not change that, and I- in my experiences with social sciences, I felt that they were dry as dust and-and I actually felt that there was more, you know, sort of, if you were thinking about it, from the point of view of counseling. Because I did not initially think that my role was going to be in terms of the more systemic change. I thought in terms of working in, you know, more individually at school or other I was not so sure what I was gonna do but, but I felt that there were more human truths of-of-of how people behave and think through literature than through some of the social science films. Well, there was a role for both, but-but that is kind of where I was at the time. So I was a lit major, and I did go on. I got a master's in social work after- IG: 26:57 Where? DW: 26:58 In San Diego State. So I met my husband at Harpur. He was a senior when I was a freshman, and he, when he graduated, went off to study at UC San Diego, and we had a sort of a mail order correspondence romance for occasional get togethers while he was in California, and I finished school at Harpur and I-I finished in seven semesters, and we got married right afterwards. So I was 20 years old, and we- I got a job, you know, not in any area that I would particularly wanted to continue in, and that was motivating to want to go on in school. And at that point, I got a master's in social work. So at that point, I felt more that my schooling should have to do with what I might actually want to do as a career. IG: 28:09 And so give us an idea of your career trajectory. You lived in California for a number of years and- DW: 28:19 Right through the end of Mark's schooling, really, because he was in a PhD program; my program, but he was well into it. IG: 28:30 What did he study? DW: 28:31 Biochemistry, and he had a tremendously positive experience formative there at Harpur because of that, he- Professor Norcross [Bruce Norcross] was a much beloved chemistry professor there who he was very close with, and really helped him make his decision about whether he wanted to make that a career. So that was his thing. So he he got a PhD at UC San Diego and and I got my master's degree. And when he was done, and I was done, he went to a post doctoral fellow in University of Washington in Seattle, and then we decided after a while to come back East to families, but in terms of my work experiences, as I say, I did not initially think that it would be in the political direction. And so I did study. I had a field placement as a school social worker, because that did seem close to what I had experienced, but I could not get a job. Doing it right away. I wound up being a counselor in a college in San Diego briefly before we moved then, I was a counselor, sort of or a student activities advisor in University of Washington. So that was at the college level. And then when we moved to Boston, I was pregnant and I did not want to get a job right then, and so I started volunteering, and I had to make the decision, should I volunteer in something that was going to help me get a job, or should I volunteer in something that I thought I would never get a job in, but that I thought was interesting. So I thought I was choosing the latter, and I-I was volunteering with a group called Americans for Democratic Action, which was a progressive political organization. It still is, but at that time, it had more chapters around the country, and so ultimately I got to be the sole staff person for that organization. And then from there, I did transition to be the director of a Human Services Coalition in well, it was called the Massachusetts Human Services coalition is quite similar in nature to the work I am doing now. So again, you know, I thought what I was doing was just something I would be interested in that I would never be able to get paid for. But I was wrong about that. So I, so I, that was how I moved into more of the sort of systemic change political policy. IG: 32:08 Tell us about these organizations and how you managed to work at both, you know, organizing these people and also managing your child. DW: 32:25 Well, I was very different from an awful lot of people nowadays. I did take more time home with our daughter than many people have the luxury of doing now. And so I was at home with her. I did not start to work part even part time, until she was about two and a half. And, and that was part time. And then I, you know, as she got older, I transitioned to full time work. So that was wonderful that I could do that. And I feel I know that some people choose not to, wanted to stay home longer, but I know that a lot of people might choose to, if it was at all an option for them. So I was grateful for that. So that was how I had done the volunteering, you know, before she was born and and I am sure I did little bits of things when I could after she was born, but I did not go into paid employment until-until she was two and a half or so. IG: 33:43 So-so what was the nature of your volunteering? What did you do from day to day? DW: 33:47 Well- IG: 33:48 The first organization. DW: 33:49 With Americans for democratic action, we-we took positions on issues in the state legislature, and sometimes went and testified at hearings. I do remember being incredibly nervous about doing that, you know, and and the person who was guiding me sort of laughing, but being supportive, you know, bear in mind, you know more about this than they do, and all of that so and, of course, I have had- IG: 33:50 What kinds of things did you justify? DW: 33:59 I was more in the domestic well, of course, state legislature, so human needs, kinds of programs, you know, support for education and social services and cash assistance and those kinds of things. And helping with for Americans for democratic action, we could do a record of roll call votes. It was not a tax exempt organization. We could take positions on candidates so we were. We did, and we recorded their roll call votes. So researching what the votes should be, that was a part of what we did. And we had meetings with the members of the organization, and you get a speaker to inform people about this or that topic. And there was close collaboration with like minded members of Congress, excuse me, members of the state legislature. And in fact, you may know Barney Frank, who was a member of Congress for a long time. Well, he started out as a state representative. Well, he started other things before then, but he was a state representative for a long time, so I knew him quite well then. But anyway, so that is what we did there, and then moving to this Massachusetts Human Services coalition. IG: 35:55 How did you find that? DW: 35:58 Well, I think, well, you know, groups know each other, and I may have participated with them some as a as somebody who was with Americans for democratic action, I kind of forget exactly how I got involved with them, but there they were very small staff. There were, you know, I think three staff or something, plus volunteers. And so I did take the executive director job there after a while, and was there for about 10 years. IG: 36:46 What were the years that you were there? DW: 36:50 Not too good about this. Let us see. Probably about (19)83 to (19)93 something. Yeah, that would be about right. And, after that, we moved to Washington because of a job that my husband was taking, and his job was at the Food and Drug Administration. He was a biochemist, and he worked in research while he was in Boston, but he was getting kind of tired of that. I think he liked the idea of moving more into the regulatory area. There was a certain research component there too at the FDA, so-so he did that, and we came here, and then I got a job at the Children's Defense Fund, which is, I do not know if you have heard of them, but Marian Wright Edelman is their director--was then too, and founder, and so I worked for them for about nine years on a lot of policy and advocacy areas, with regard especially to income security areas, cash assistance programs, housing IG: 38:14 So, what would you do? Would you go and testify? Or would you- DW: 38:19 Occasionally, is more of not as much testifying, but cannot be too hot anymore. But I would go on visits to Hill staff to talk about our issues in when you get to the congressional level, you are not as often meeting with the members of Congress as you would meet with state legislators directly. There was a lot more staff work going on there. So we would meet with Hill staff and try to shape what they were doing. Um, and- IG: 39:07 How would you do that? I mean, to a novice, to somebody who does not know, would you, I mean, what form of, what was a form that you were lobbying? DW: 39:18 Well, you know, in our view, there was, there was a combination of things that have has to happen. You need the policy expertise to bring a specific set of proposals to them. And so we would, you know, be doing the writing and the evidence and all of that. But we also- IG: 39:41 How did you collect the evidence? DW: 39:44 Sometimes there was really just kind of like writing research paper, some we had on staff analysts who would be able to take a look at the say acensus poverty data and be able to show disproportionate poverty-poverty among, of course, communities of color, or point out how younger children were more likely to be poor than older children, and therefore we need to train a set of policies for the youngest children, or, you know, so the that, as well as policy experts looking at programs that work that might have been tried in a given area, and bringing that to members of Congress. So-so there was that, but there was also a keen understanding that you need constituents to be saying, we support this or we oppose that. So the other part of our work would be educating people around the country and encouraging them to take action. And so that was part of- IG: 41:01 So, educating people around the country, did you travel? DW: 41:05 I did more at CDF than in my work now, but so yes, we would do that. There was also a big concentration of effort among African American leaders and community leaders, faith leaders, at the Children's Defense Fund, and there was, and is what they called a black community Crusade for Children. And they had a lot. They had some offices based in the south, and they would have meetings in black churches or in group settings of various kinds. And I, as a staff person knowledgeable in particular areas would go, and that was an educational experience for me, and I hope for them too, but so that was fun and but that was way of bringing the information to people who were out around the country to say, you know, here is what is at stake. Here is what Congress is trying to decide. You have got to speak out and tell them you do not want this or you do want that. IG: 42:29 So what was the way that you measured your success? DW: 42:32 Well, did we stop a bad bill from passing? Did we get a good thing from passing? That was one way. But then interim goals are, did you reach more people? I mean, now nowadays, the metrics are easier. There was not as much internet when I was first at CDF. So now, of course, you really can measure pretty accurately how many people you are reaching, but we did measure it in terms of sometimes we could gage, because we would have toll free telephone numbers, how many people called Congress through a toll Free number, and if that number was up or even just gaging, we successfully got Reverend so and so to get an op ed in the local paper. IG: 43:30 I see, did you, did you help the Reverend pen this editorial, sometimes-sometimes? DW: 43:40 We tried a mix of maybe writing a first draft with holes in it for them to put in their personal stuff, and then they would edit it some more, I think, until they were satisfied that it accurately reflected them. IG: 44:00 So-so, and how did you come to form your current organization? DW: 44:07 Well, I did not form it. In fact, when I was at the Children's Defense Fund, I was a board member of this coalition on human needs, which was formed in the Reagan years to protest or try to fight against efforts then made to cut and block grant various human needs programs. Well, there are a bunch of social services programs that used to be separate with specific goals, and they were combined, for instance, into something called the Social Services Block Grant. And that, to us, was one example of why you never want to be block granting programs because, or often do not want to because while they would tout it as a wonderful way for states to have flexibility that first of all, they cut all the programs when they combine them into this thing- IG: 45:12 I see. DW: 45:13 -with the deniability they, Oh, you like this youth something or other program. Well, we did not cut it, you know, we just put it into this pot. But of course, the overall dollars were less than before. Some something had to give. And then the very diffuseness of the programs- IG: 45:36 How so? DW: 45:36 -of the overall block grant, because it was for a whole lot of things. It was not just for youth programs, so and so, caused them then to say, well, this does not have a very defined purpose. That was the whole point of it, not to have a defined purpose and to give flexibility to the states. But once it did not have that, then they did not make it a particular priority to fund it. So it was cut and then flat-funded for 20 years, 30 years and more than that by now. So-so it has eroded tremendously, and of course, in the current climate, both the Republicans in the in Congress and the President have proposed eliminating it all together. So-so that is just an example of the kind of thing that we wanted to oppose and did not succeed in every instance. But then the coalition, well as it was formed, it was a mix of faith groups and sort of umbrella organizations for human services providers and policy experts and labor and other advocacy organizations. Speaker 1 46:48 If you were to do it all over again, and what would have been a strategy to prevent some of the obstacles that you encountered early on? DW: 47:18 Sorry, some of the the strategies are right, in the sense that, again, you need a combination of message and messenger, so you need accurate information. We still believe in that and but you need a very active participation by constituents that-that is crucial, and so we do a mix of things. Now, for instance, we-we are a tax exempt organization. There is- we cannot spend all of our money lobbying, but we spend the allowable part of it lobbying and educating people out around the country about when various things are about to happen in Congress, and encouraging them to weigh in. So we- IG: 48:23 What do you do this outreach? Do you do it through writing, or do you actually visit? For example, you said faith based organizations. Do you visit places of worship and talk to communities- DW: 48:40 In my, in my current role, I do not travel quite as much because the organizations we work with often do not have the budget to pay for it, and we have not had the budget to do it. But we-we do a lot of webinars and conference calls and so ways of reaching folks around the country, we work through, to a great extent, advocacy organizations, and hope that they then funnel the information out to their own networks. And so we- there is a combination of writing and presenting in this way. We partner with organizations in states, for instance, every year when the census poverty data comes out, we partner with 10 or a dozen organizations in that many states to co write a report. In their state, it is going to be, you know, the. What the situation is in New York or in Ohio or someplace. And we write a national report as well. So then those groups release it there, and we try to encourage press coverage there. So, you know, we do multiple routes to try to get more activism on the part of state groups, and we reach out both directly through our own lists and because we are a coalition through all these different groups lists to encourage people you know straightforwardly to contact their members of Congress at the right moment, or these other forms of getting into the press, a response. And you know, sometimes we have been in times when we have been able to make real expansions in services, for instance, during the- after the Great Recession, Obama administration and Congress were looking for ways of making investments spending money that was going to boost the economy, and we played quite a role in bringing proposals from a lot of different human needs areas so that it was not all infrastructure, you know, building roads or something that kind of seen as the typical way. But we helped people to understand that when you give poor people money, for instance, or in kind like SNAP or food stamp benefits, they are going to go out and spend it right away. They are not going to save it the way a richer person will. And that moves the economy in. There were economists saying that so that helped, and so in those kinds of times, we could play a role in increasing the amount of money that was spent on food stamps, on child care, on unemployment insurance, on housing. Various employment programs, you know, quite a lot of programs. That was a big good time. And I mean, it was a recession, or that was a horrible time, but we were able to get some improvements that help people. And of course, there have been times when we have been fighting against cuts like now. IG: 52:46 So how has your strategy changed under the current administration? DW: 52:52 Well, we certainly we are not getting in to visit with them. They are not responsive at all, but we have just redoubled our efforts to include constituents in-in both meetings. We might have group meetings with representatives from a number of different groups here on the hill going to a congressional office, and we will have one or two constituents on by phone to demonstrate that we are connected to their constituents. And that is been really quite effective. And then more, you know, larger efforts of reaching out to get lots and lots of people either to send emails or call, and that is been working. And then the other strategy, we are a non partisan organization, but we recognize that by identifying those who are supporters and who are not Democrats, largely in this political environment, have been willing to fight for the issues that we fight for, and the extent to which they do have leverage, like when you need 60 votes in the Senate, and Republicans do not have 60 votes. So if they want certain things to pass, they have to go along with things. And even in this awful climate, we have been able to have some successes. For instance, an increase in child care dollars recently was approved that I never thought we would have in this climate, but that was terrific and as well as increased funding for opioid use disorder. So but an awful lot of what we are doing is just trying to stand in opposition. Addition to awful things that they want to do. And, you know, the Farm Bill has the SNAP or food stamp program, and I do not want to go on too much longer, but the- and they want to make cuts in that to deny millions of people assistance. And we are working with Democrats to refuse they cannot pass a farm bill without Democratic votes because they lose too many Republican votes for other reasons. And right now, our strategy is, delay, stop it, and we are making headway. So you know, sometimes the gage is, can you stop something awful from happening? And sometimes the gage is, can actually make something good happen, and so we have been in on some of both of that. IG: 56:07 So what are your biggest victories? Do you think with this organization, with the Coalition for Human Needs, I mean, experiences? What do you think? What are your fondest achievements? DW: 56:25 I would say that what I described during the recovery from the recession period where we were able to encourage the thinking that part of economic recovery required assistance to low income people and very concrete, tangible forms of assistance. The fact that so many of those things were incorporated, I would say, was one of our biggest successes, another big success we have interested ourselves in tax matters, both low income tax credits that put money in the hands of low income people, as well as the broader topic of not wanting to see revenues cut that where the benefits go, largely to upper income corporations, and therefore losing revenues that could be spent on investments. But at any rate, we-we worked quite a lot on expansions in the Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit, which are low income tax credits extremely beneficial to low income families, and we also have played a role in so far, but I do not know how long we can keep it up, preventing cuts in the child tax credit that will exclude some immigrant families. So on a number of times we have been part of an effort that stopped them from doing that. But right now, I do not know. We will see if we can keep it going. IG: 58:09 It sounds like wonderful work. I would like to know if, for the students who listen to these tapes now and in the future, do you have any messages about how to think about their undergraduate education? DW: 58:38 Well, I would say when served you, my advice is that your education includes many parts. It includes allowing yourself to blossom in all kinds of ways. And of course, it includes learning things academically. I think you do not have to, in many instances, make all your decisions too early. You know, as I say, I was a literature major. I never regretted that. I understand that if you want to go into a career in sciences, you really have to have that background. But even, you know, my husband took a lot of literature courses, and was not sure whether he should go in the sciences or literature. He never regretted the number of courses he took in areas that were outside of the sciences. I think there really is a reason to have a liberal arts education, and that it gives you a breadth of view that stands you in good stead in all your life. But there, there is, there are so many opportunities on a college campus to learn all kinds of things that you never were exposed to before, and people should take advantage of those because they do not know which of those things might open up worlds to them. And you know, for me, of course, I have described how the opportunity to be in an Upward Bound program. I wanted to be a singer when I was in started college, I had no thought of social activism or anti poverty, economic justice work, but my eyes were open because of an experience that I had on the campus that I will be forever grateful for. But also, you know, there are other experiences. We could the Guarneri String Quartet was in residence at Harpur in our days, and you could go to a concert for 25 cents. And and we went and, and I have a and my husband have a lifelong love for classical music, and we did not have so very much exposure to it before that. So, you know, I imagine there are still those kinds of opportunities for people to get outside of what they already know, and they should take advantage of them. IG: 1:01:31 Any concluding remarks. DW: 1:01:34 Well, you know, I thought you were going to ask more about what I, you know, experiences at the school, so, but what you said is, it is true the other part of it that I was there at a very interesting time when I started, women had a curfew. You may have heard this from plenty of other people, and men did not. And as I said, the the wing we were in the progressive dorm because it was co ed. But the wings were separate, of course, and only the common areas were together. And after the curfew, the men could not go down to the basement area where the food machines were, and so the women who could go down there would throw up, you know, a Snickers bar to them if they threw down the change. But by the time, by the end of my time, a lot of that had opened up. They were starting to build the sweet dorms and and the curfew for women was a thing of the past. So it was quite a time of transition in people's attitudes. And it is good thing, good thing, to get away from that. And so I was, you know, the study of the (19)60s is worthwhile because of all the, you know, that was only the little inkling of, of course, much more large societal changes going on. But I felt like I was kind of a part of it. IG: 1:03:17 Thank you very much. DW: 1:03:18 Sure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Deborah Volkell Weinstein Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in nonprofits; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weinstein, Deborah Volkell ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Deborah Weinstein is the executive director of the Coalition on Human Needs, an alliance of national organizations working together to promote public policies for low income women and children. Deborah has covered politics, crime, and healthcare policies for various news outlets including <em>Medical Marketing &amp; Media</em>, where she specializes in Obesity, Alzheimer’s disease and healthcare costs. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Debbie Weinstein.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-16 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 63:19 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/423e87f8bfae7806ac0e316e94f3a76d.mp3 15a0b316ed6ea0047dfbb5e3363f9fdd https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93eb503df4ac2d95351465398ea29a3f.jpg 0d9768e557072696819bb8bdc5c8e968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Year of Graduation 1965 and 1968 Biographical Text Paul Ginsburg, Ph.D. is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. <br /><br />Gail Ginsburg is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paul B. Ginsburg and Gail T. Ginsburg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 12 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 -ask you to introduce yourselves and just say, when you were born, what years you attended Binghamton, and what we are doing here. PG: 00:14 Okay. IG: 00:16 Where we are. PG: 00:17 Yeah, I am Paul. I am Paul Ginsburg, and I was born in 1945 graduated from Binghamton, which we called Harpur College, then in 1965 so I was very much a youngster, as many of my peers from New York City were at that time. GG: 00:42 And I am Gail Ginsburg. I was born in 1948 and I graduated in 1968 also it was Harpur College at that point, and I think that is all right. IG: 01:01 So, what-what are we doing here? PG: 01:03 Oh, sure. And we are being interviewed by Irene Gashurov- IG: 01:09 Yes. PG: 01:10 -who's doing--what do you call it? IG: 01:12 Oral history. PG: 01:13 Oral history of the college in the 1960s. GG: 01:18 Of which we have some experience. [laughter] IG: 01:23 Alright, so Paul, let us begin with you. So just tell us a little bit about where you grew up. You mentioned New York, who your parents were, you know, what-what, whether they encouraged you to go to college, PG: 01:39 Yeah. Well, so I did grow up in New York, New York City, in the Bronx, and there was never any discussion about going to college. It was assumed. And I assumed it as well. I was very intrigued about the idea of going away to college, which perhaps is a reason that I wound up going to Harpur rather than one of the city university colleges in New York City. IG: 02:11 So, your parents- PG: 02:12 Oh, and sorry, you know, my parents were native born. They were- their parents were immigrants, and my father was an administrator in the New York City government. And my mother, I think by that point, had been working also in the New York City government. I think she went back to work when my brother and I were in high school. IG: 02:44 I am curious. Where were the immigrants from? PG: 02:48 Oh, Russia. PG: 02:48 From Russia. PG: 02:49 But not my parents. Their-their parents. IG: 02:51 They were [inaudible]. I understand your grandparents. Do you know where? PG: 02:56 Yeah, I think I know my father's family came from Belarus, what today is called Belarus. IG: 03:03 It was a Russian Empire. PG: 03:04 That is right. IG: 03:07 And you Gail, where did you grow up? Who your parents were, you know? GG: 03:14 So, I grew up on Staten Island in one of the boroughs of New York City. I went to high school in Manhattan, so I had a long commute to high school. My parents were from New Jersey, and their families went back a long time. I have relatives who lived in Rahway in going back to the early 1800s but they moved to Staten Island because they had a business opportunity. They bought a small business, and just before my father was drafted into World War Two, and my mom stayed and worked the whole business during the war. And so, I was raised, probably by the original feminist. They were not college educated, but they- there was no question we were going to college. My sister, who's older, went to college, and it seemed like a good experience. So, it was never a question I was going to go to college. IG: 04:20 So why did you decide on Harpur College? GG: 04:29 Well- IG: 04:31 What was the reputation that you knew of Harpur College at the time? GG: 04:35 I would not say there was a lot of decision in that. My family was pretty unsophisticated when it came to understanding about colleges compared to the knowledge that Paul and I have now. It is probably shared with our children. You just applied where a guidance counselor thought you had a chance to get in. And in some of the places I applied to, I was not accepted in. I was first year of the baby booms, and so there were a lot of surprises that year on acceptances, and Harpur just seemed like a very good choice. Some of the other choices I had were very expensive, and my father had just lost a lot of money, so he was really happy for me to go to Harpur. IG: 05:25 Well, it is maybe too personal to ask how he lost a lot of money. GG: 05:29 He was a businessman. IG: 05:32 Okay, [inaudible] GG: 05:33 He was not necessarily low risk kind of person. He had his company, and he retained that, but he had invested a lot of money in a-a process that-that coated fabric, and this- his friend of his had a patent on it, and they started their business, and they were really out competed by DuPont. It was pretty hard for them to get muscle into that market. So, he lost a fair amount of money at that point, and it was just before I was that year and a half before I started college. But we were not impoverished. [crosstalk] PG: 06:15 I went to Harpur because I mentioned I wanted to be in a residential school, and just given my sense of what the tuition would be, even with scholarships at private universities, the tuition difference was very large. And my parents were a fairly modest income and-and I was impressed with Harpur's reputation. The fact that it was a small liberal arts college was attractive to me. IG: 06:52 Did you visit it before your first semester? PG: 06:56 No. IG: 06:57 And, yeah-yeah. So, what were some of your first impressions when you two city kids came to this very rural place? GG: 06:57 No. GG: 07:07 Well, my sister went to Elmira college, so I was already familiar with the southern tier, so it did not surprise me that much. The one thing that surprised me was that it was kind of far out of town. It was like a suburban location, and I was sort of surprised at that, especially since few of us had cars, it was kind of isolating. PG: 07:32 Yeah, I would say that, you know, I knew it was going to be somewhat rural, well, not really rural, but just in a small city location. It did not disappoint me. I did not expect to have much time for taking advantage of the location. I expected to be really mostly involved in both work and campus social activities, so I never had that much interest, actually, of getting off campus, because so much was there on the campus. IG: 08:09 Did you anticipate what type of social activities these would be, just kind of hanging out with other young people or? PG: 08:17 Yeah, being with other people. There was, at least at that time, a lot of culture was brought to the campus, you know, concerts, movies, actually, there seemed to be plenty to do. I was not as focused on food as I am now. So, the fact that the food was going to be awful, and was truly awful, and that they were no convenient restaurants right nearby did not factor in. IG: 08:49 So-so what was your program of study? What-what did you major in? PG: 08:55 Oh, well, I started out as a math major, but had an interest in economics. And when I got to the- guess, my fourth math course in, say, the spring of my sophomore year, that is when I decided that math was not for me, and I, you know, was well along in economics and decided that is what I would do. IG: 09:26 So, what- who were, you know, maybe some of the faculty that made an impression on you, what-what changed you from wanting to pursue math as a as a subject of study to economics? PG: 09:44 Well, that is hard to say. I mean, it is- I did have an outstanding initial math teacher, perhaps for the full year and a half calculus sequence. And but there is nothing wrong with it. Teacher after that, it was a striking change in the nature of the subjects to highly theoretical mathematics, whereas the first three semesters were quite practical. Same, you know, an engineer might have taken that course, not that there were engineering students at Harpur at the time, so I always characterize it as just seeing what at least the math major was conceived of at Harpur. And, you know, did not find that engaging. I think I had a very good- all the freshmen took a social science course at the time which exposed them to all of the social sciences. And when they were sophomores, they actually took an introductory course in selected social science. And both my social science course and gone very well. I kind of remember the instructor was a young man with a dashing silver streak in his hair. And we used to refer to him students as the Silver Streak. But he was, you know, charismatic teacher. And so, in a sense, then I began the regular economics course. I enjoyed that a great deal. IG: 11:26 So, what appealed to you about economics? How did it open vistas for you- your understanding of the world? PG: 11:34 Yeah, I just found the subject matter very engaging. And, you know, sticking with economics and becoming a professional economist, I think the thing now, I could think of it as the ability to, you know, think very analytically and to understand an economy and how things impact. It just very engaging all the time. IG: 12:04 But nothing-nothing particular and nothing, nothing you know, a gem of insight does not stand out from those years that you all of a sudden, because of this course of study, something began to make sense. Your apprehension of the world changed. No, it was not like that. PG: 12:24 No, I think it was just, it was a subject I had not been exposed to high school. IG: 12:29 Yeah. PG: 12:31 There are high school economics courses these days. I do not know how successful they are, but it was just-just finding the subject matter very engaging. IG: 12:40 Right-right. Any so, any professors in economics that you would like to mention as having a particular impact? PG: 12:50 Yeah, I would say the it was Professor John Latourette. Actually, I liked a lot of the faculty. It was Latourette, too. I do not remember if I took the introductory course from him or not, but I know he was my advisor, and as a senior, actually did some research with him and-and I remember some Alfred Carlip was, you know, very good professor, someone named, I think, Leiman [Melvin Leiman], where the subject matter of the course was not that interesting, but I liked him. So, there were a lot of engaging professors there at the time. Cannot think of anyone I did not like. Oh, and then, actually, the professor at my senior seminar, his name is Vucasin [Peter Vukasin], was an outstanding teacher and helped me decide which graduate school to go to. IG: 13:59 And where did you go? PG: 14:01 I went to Harvard. And what he told me is that, see, I had gotten into all that I had applied to, all in the same day that I had been awarded a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, which, at that time used to have money attached to it, and so they all accepted me, since I had my own money. IG: 14:22 So where did you get where else did you get accepted? PG: 14:25 Oh, I think Yale, Johns, Hopkins, those are the ones I remember. IG: 14:30 Why did you choose Harvard? I mean- PG: 14:33 Well, what Vukasin said to me is that, in a sense, "You do not have very specific, defined interests. Go to Harvard. You like Cambridge," and I guess that was pretty good advice. IG: 14:48 And so, did you do a PhD, or? PG: 14:50 Yes, what I should tell you, I am sure you have heard it from some others, is that I would much rather have worked as an economist after college to see what it was like. IG: 15:02 Right. PG: 15:04 I did not expect to be an academic and but you know, that was better than being drafted. IG: 15:12 Right. PG: 15:14 Reason I got a PhD is both learning that the-the top programs in economics did not bother with master's programs. What I found actually at Harvard is that the master's degree was what was given to the students that the PhD students who were not going to make it- PG: 15:40 To the PhD. PG: 15:41 -to PhD level. So, in a sense, and there were, there is a lot of scholarship money for PhD programs, nothing for master's programs at lesser universities. So, I got into a PhD program. IG: 15:59 Gail, did you, you know, were you married at the time, or what-what? GG: 16:07 No. IG: 16:07 Okay, so let us, let us trace back to your course of study at Binghamton, and what you know, why you chose the major that you did and what faculty made a particular impression on your formation? If you, if you can say that GG: 16:29 Sure, I started out as initially as a science major. I was interested in biology or chemistry, I was not sure, and so I started the introductory--the initial years of requirements are pretty similar between those two majors. So, I started those programs, and then I also in taking your distribution requirements, found that I really liked literature, and so I was taking, kind of following this path for the first two years, of taking trying to meet my distribution requirements, but also taking my science and then I would take extra literature courses as I could fit them in, and there was always a competition between the two. But in the sense that I- in my comparative anatomy class, I think it was Professor Landry [Stuart O. Landry] was the professor, and he saw my notebook and realized that I could sketch. And so, he had me- I did some illustrations for him. And it was a lot of fun. IG: 17:50 What kind of illustrations? GG: 17:51 They were anatomical. In those days, most biology was very descriptive. IG: 17:55 Right. GG: 17:56 So, it was skulls, all different kinds of skulls. He was, I guess, doing comparative analysis of the evolution of the- these different animals. And it was very interesting, because I had kind of a distant, not-not very much, not a firm relative, but very distant one who was a medical illustrator, and so I had actually seen some of his work, and he- so there was this one side with me, doing art and science, and then the other side was the literature professor at the same time, Robert Kroetsch, who was a writer, novelist, and he was a fantastic professor, and he kept urging me to major in literature. So, I had these competing interests, and I- there are two things that made me really made literature actually went out in the end, and that was that I did not know what I was going to do with a science major. I did not think that I wanted to go to medical school, and absolutely all my classmates in my science classes were highly competitive, all wanting to get to medical school and make it killing financially, they were not fun to be classmates with, and I just did not think that that was going to be the thing for me. I knew that there was a very strong prejudice against women in the science in those days, it was hard, it was hard, to see a path forward, and literature was so much fun, and I did not think that far in advance. I do not think I planned that much in those days. I think that is the disadvantage of starting college at 16. You know, you were still a high school kid. IG: 19:57 Yes. GG: 19:58 Basically, you do not really have, uh, the social sense, or the drive. IG: 20:02 Right. GG: 20:03 That is someone who's been out more. GG: 20:05 The only drive I knew was that I had to finish college because my parents would be mortally just so opposed to my dropping out of college. And I never thought about it. I really liked college material, and I actually used to like studying for finals, because it kind of was a way to kind of pull together a whole body of information. And I am someone who- IG: 20:05 Of course. IG: 20:30 In literature you like, or any subject? GG: 20:33 Any subject, yeah, I just found that I am not good at the little details. I am really good at putting together patterns. And somehow patterns fell into place studying for a final. So, I had this overview that I always felt gave me more understanding, at least the best that I could at that point, I was not the most dedicated student also going to laugh at that. And so, you know, if I could get away with not working that hard, I certainly would. And I spent a lot of time off campus because I found Binghamton very boring. So, I have spent a lot of time up in Ithaca. IG: 21:13 Yeah. So, you had a car, or somebody- GG: 21:16 I had a friend who had a car, yeah, and the two of us would just go roaming. We had a great time, and I do not know. So eventually I did become a literature major, be more, because I just did not know what I was going to do. And in those days, you could graduate from college, and that was sufficient to get a job, PG: 21:36 A good job. IG: 21:38 A good job. Yeah. GG: 21:40 And so, but so that is basically what I did. And I would say those two professors were very influential on me. Of all professors I had, first of all, because I still remember their names, that means something. And they just all took a personal interest in me, and that I thought was, I did not know if that was a feature of college in general, or just maybe that is an aspect of being a relatively small school as it was at that time, but I appreciated that because you did not feel anonymous at all. IG: 22:19 Did they invite you to their homes? Did you have any extra [crosstalk] curricular activities with them? Did they have dinners or? GG: 22:29 Actually, there was a third professor that, I think back on it. He was, I think he had invited me to his house. I remember he had these fancy pigeons in the cage in his kitchen. They were really quite spectacular, and his wife was wonderful. Dr. Landry, I think he gave me a ride somewhere. I mean, they were nice people- IG: 22:52 Nice people. GG: 22:55 But it was not like I felt like I socialized with them. IG: 22:58 Right. Were there any stars that you remember in the English Department? GG: 23:03 Well, I think Kroetsch was. He left the university around the time I was graduating, or he was on leave. I do not know if he actually came back or not. He was Canadian. I think he eventually went up to Canada again. IG: 23:21 Did you take part- I am just curious, what-what, so what-what path did your career take? GG: 23:28 Oh, that is the interesting part. I kept circling back to science, no matter how I turned. That is what I wound up in. So, what is the job I get when I finish college? I interview to be a secretary. Because remember, in those days, they used to have two lines at employment offices, the men went the executive route and the women went the secretarial so I being ignorant. I just did what they said. And during my interview, woman said, "You are not going to be happy being a secretary," and I wound up in the in designing circuit boards at a small engineering company in Boston. IG: 24:15 How did that happen? From secretarial to was it your science degree? [crosstalk] How did you decide circuit boards? GG: 24:22 I did not. IG: 24:22 I could not. GG: 24:22 I did not. She just decided, for me, she knew that. I guess she must have been aware of what jobs were open, and I did not have, you did not have to be an engineer. IG: 24:33 Right. GG: 24:33 You just have to understand components and tolerances, and they can teach you that. And the engineers were in offices down the hallway. But what I did was it was like a puzzle. I mean, it is like they paid me to do puzzles. It was so much fun. IG: 24:46 And what was the what was the time and company, and? GG: 24:50 Oh, do you remember the name of the company? PG: 24:53 Yeah, [inaudible] GG: 24:54 Is it? GG: 24:55 Yeah, I think they made equipment for testing, for quality control. PG: 24:59 Yeah-yeah, I cannot think of [crosstalk] GG: 25:01 [crosstalk] anything right now. I only worked there for a few months, and then my father was- who had been ill most of my life, was really ill, and my mom wanted me to move back home, which I did, so then I came home and helped her run the family business after my dad passed away. PG: 25:22 You know, one thing I have been mentioning thinking about since we talked before about, and Gail mentioned being young. This was a major thing, because, you know, almost all of the students from New York City, which might have been half of the student body, were young, and so it really, I think it limited how much they got out of college. It limited the kind of activities they sought out, maybe even limited them intellectually, like when I think of it, my fourth semester, all of a sudden, I started doing--I was doing okay, but I started doing very well, and that continued throughout, probably just a matter of maturity. IG: 26:09 It was a matter of maturity, did you say? PG: 26:11 Yeah, probably a matter of just maturity. IG: 26:13 Yeah, that is that is an interesting observation. I have also thought that in my life as well, that at a certain point you either read- reach a critical mass. But it does have to do with maturity and yet, and yet, you know you were. I mean, there are prodigies at a young age, and you already had a sense of the direction that you wanted to take in math, and then you switched to economics, so you had the intellectual wherewithal to pursue that too. PG: 26:51 Well, there are different interpretations. You could say, well, maybe if he was more maturing- IG: 26:55 Yeah, he would do more. PG: 26:56 -would have handled math differently. IG: 26:59 So-so do you think that the, you know, well, I mean- PG: 27:03 I do not think that was the case. I do not think, looking back, that was actually the case. IG: 27:07 Yeah. PG: 27:08 They were just saying that there are possibilities of students who went different directions, perhaps because they were quite young, IG: 27:16 Yeah. PG: 27:17 That might have, might not have been the best for them. IG: 27:20 Right. So- GG: 27:23 I think, I think there are always aspects, [inaudible] in an environment that influences you. Just as I was saying that I did not know how I could have a path forward for science job in just pure chemistry, say, I think that is a reality at that time, it would have been very difficult, and so that had nothing to do with my age, but there is all these other external factors that one processes as you go through. PG: 27:53 but I actually think that my young age, unlike you, my young age, made me quite satisfied with campus life in a way that you were not. IG: 28:03 So, what did you do? I mean, campus life, how was it, how was it fun? PG: 28:09 Well, in a sense, it was, first of all, I was not home. IG: 28:11 Yes. PG: 28:13 I had all these friends, you know, right nearby. You know, could get together with them, quickly, or, you know, without spending a lot of time traveling. I mentioned before there were all these events going on that were, and many of these events were, you know, very important to me. You know, being exposed to foreign movies, being exposed to jazz performers and quartets. There was a quartet [crosstalk] quartet. IG: 28:47 And what do you remember, any of the musicians, any of the- PG: 28:53 Oh, some of the jazz musicians. IG: 28:54 Where did they perform? At the student union or there was an auditorium. PG: 28:58 There was an auditorium, there was an auditorium, and then in some cases it was the gym, which is somewhat bigger, but the most of it in the auditorium. You know, as well as student productions and so you know, between the people, and you know, people were in social clubs, which was, you know, really, just for parties- GG: 29:30 And for men. PG: 29:32 Well, there was some women's clubs, were not there-- much less probably. IG: 29:36 What were the clubs that you were in? PG: 29:38 I was in [inaudible]. IG: 29:39 What is that? PG: 29:41 It is just a Greek name. [laughter] GG: 29:44 [crosstalk] national fraternities. PG: 29:47 No-no, they were not. They were, they were all specific to Harpur and really just another social you know, to some extent, like fraternities, but people I-I remember, actually, you know, we got together for parties, but also just sometimes, just the older people would, you know, take the group out to a bar and, you know, just to drink beer on a Friday night. IG: 30:22 Well, that is, I mean, that is fun, especially when you are, you know- PG: 30:27 When you were 16- IG: 30:28 -when you were 16 is, you know, it was an entry into adulthood. PG: 30:32 That is right. IG: 30:33 Would you, would you imagine adulthood to be. So-so, you know, so you were having fun and socializing and participating in clubs, but it was also the time of Vietnam. PG: 30:49 No. IG: 30:50 It was before Vietnam, because- PG: 30:52 I was there, before Vietnam [crosstalk] IG: 30:54 Before it affected your-your- PG: 30:56 Yeah, Vietnam was not very prominent. IG: 30:59 It was not very so, so there was not a fear of the draft, or- PG: 31:03 I mean, there was not, I mean, definitely. Well, I remember, actually, not that far, long before I graduated, because of Vietnam getting started, there was a change in draft policy. IG: 31:14 How did it change? PG: 31:16 It used to be that, you know, I think they started maybe exempting fathers, and that meant they were drafting more of other people. You know, I do not remember the details now, but the bottom line was that I was, oh, I know what it was, is that they were not drafting men until they were 23, 24 and there was a policy to exempt fathers. And by exempting fathers, the draft age for the non-fathers fell. So, in a sense, it would be, and it fallen down to 20 or 21 perhaps. So, it meant that. So, it was not like there was all this anti-war, although I think the war was becoming unpopular then, and there probably were some activities in my last year, but it was just a matter of, oh, I am going to be drafted. I do not want that. IG: 32:12 So, I mean, for you, it is kind of a moot point, because you were determined to go on to your graduate- PG: 32:22 No. IG: 32:22 -studies anyway. PG: 32:23 No. IG: 32:23 No. PG: 32:24 No, I would not have gone to graduate school. IG: 32:26 You would not have gone. PG: 32:27 No. IG: 32:27 I see. PG: 32:28 Maybe later. IG: 32:29 Maybe later. GG: 32:32 When, in the end, he was so young when he graduated. For graduate school, he was still eligible. IG: 32:39 Right. GG: 32:40 So, he [inaudible] two years. IG: 32:45 So, he- PG: 32:46 Yeah, so I was in had a commission in the Public Health Service to meet my service obligation. IG: 32:53 Oh, and where was that? And what? What nature of service was it? PG: 32:59 Oh, I was used interchangeably with federal civil servants in Rockville, that but as a commission as Lieutenant Commander in the Public Health Service. GG: 33:13 But he had a low enough number in the lottery, he would have been drafted for the army. IG: 33:17 That is terrible. PG: 33:18 Yeah. IG: 33:21 So did the war- I mean, did you come from a liberal or conservative background? Did the war change your thinking in any way about politics, about- PG: 33:35 Yeah, I would call them. I would say came from a moderate democratic background. And the, you know, the war was not popular there with me. But you know, this did not come from an environment that was going to go out and demonstrate an- and that is not me either. IG: 34:04 That is not you either. [laughter] GG: 34:14 As far as the war, my parents were both staunch Republicans. I did not pay any attention to politics, particularly. But it was interesting that as the war progressed, when my father had passed away, so I do not know if he would have evolved in this in this area, but my mom started to become strong anti-war person. So, it was interesting how as a moderate Republican, she moved very strongly against that position over time, because she remembered World War Two, when my father was in the army for three years, fighting in European front. And she thought it was horrible. I mean, she just really hated war and so that so for people who had that World War Two experience, not everyone came through saying, you know, waving the flag all the time, even if they were conservative. So that is that was a deal breaker for her. IG: 35:20 Yeah, it must have affected you to have your mother, to see your mother evolve. GG: 35:27 I thought it was interesting. I, you know, I my mother and I are very independent people, and I do not have any difficulty being with people who have a different opinion, political opinion. I was used to it. There was a range of political views, few points in my extended family, and it was I was comfortable with that. It did not matter to me so much. I thought it was a big deal for her to change, because I thought there was a lot of pressure among conservatives to kind of hold down the fort and keep to the position. So, I thought it just indicated to me that she was independent in how she viewed things. One thing I had not mentioned before when you were asking me about my profession, is that when I circled back for my first job being in science, I also came back to science again later on, when I did go to graduate school with science. IG: 36:35 In science? GG: 36:36 Yeah, I have a master's degree in molecular biology, and I have worked at NIH for many years. I am now retired from it, so I science has won me over in the end. IG: 36:52 And so, so when did you when did you make that decision to go into- GG: 36:58 After our children were starting elementary school, I went back to graduate school. IG: 37:03 I see. GG: 37:04 I went to graduates school. IG: 37:07 Wonderful. PG: 37:07 Tell the story of the course you took at UCLA, GG: 37:11 Oh UCLA, yeah, yeah, yeah, IG: 37:13 UCLA? GG: 37:15 Yeah. We were in- IG: 37:16 Los Angeles. PG: 37:17 Yeah. Actually, I had joined the RAND Corporation, and said volunteer to in Washington, but it volunteered to spend a year in Santa Monica. So, the family did that. And so that is why we were in Los Angeles, and Gail took a course. IG: 37:37 When were you in Los Angeles? PG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. IG: 37:38 (19)84, (19)85. GG: 37:41 Yeah. And you know, when you are home with two young children, the only thing you keep hearing is the dripping away of all your [inaudible]. So, I was always looking for something that would be sort of an intellectual stimulus. As much as I loved being home with my kids, you just cannot do it 100 percent there is no one normal. And so, I- PG: 38:08 Of course, they were both in school. GG: 38:10 Yeah, and so I was able to take a course. I actually took it at night, so it just did not matter about their school schedule. And it was just eye opening because I began to see the whole field of molecular biology had started up in the interim, and whereas biology before was just constant memorization, classification and structural and physiology stuff, and I did not find that that compelling, which is why I was more attracted to chemistry, because it is a little bit more overview general approaches. But molecular biology was chemistry brought to biology. And so that is so it suddenly opened my eyes. I said I could do this. This is like, IG: 38:56 What, why do you think that the field opened up because of the advent of technology? GG: 39:05 There are tipping points in every field where you get new techniques that come up that suddenly allow people to have insight in areas, they never had access to before. And so, it was the early work of the bacteriologists and they were beginning to understand and manipulate the genes in that simple bacteria and be able to show how it- they created a whole metabolism chart, and the early work of the nutritionist in biochemistry opened up this field. That opened it up in biochemistry, but the biochemists really added, brought this whole dimension and to into biology. And then when you couple that with sequencing and the understanding of DNA, which was not well elucidated. Back when I was in college, you knew that it existed, but there was so much that you did not know that allowed manipulations with it and that just-just broke open the door. IG: 40:15 So-so in your job at the NIH what-what was your focus? What-what did you do? GG: 40:23 Well, I worked for in graduate school, there with a bacteriologist, geneticist, and then after I finished graduate school, I-I had a full-time position, got a full-time position for about, I guess, about seven, eight years, maybe eight years, I was in Alan's lab, and it was a basic science lab. I worked in a small model organism called dictyostelium discoid, and we studied aspects of signal transduction, which is just, how do you how does this organism take surface signals and have create changes inside and- IG: 41:11 Just explain for the audience, why is understanding signaling so important to biochemistry? GG: 41:25 Oh, well, it is very in some ways we never knew. Part of it is playing around and experimenting. But the theory was that if we understood how we could manipulate signals on the surface, which could be anything like a drug can come in and clog up a pathway, but being able to understand the internal workings of the cell, you- they were, it was very reductionist in those days, so they were really trying to, we were really trying to understand how a cell actually works. And we thought with something very simple, you could understand, in this case, how do these cells begin to move from being single cells to aggregating with other single cells and become, and in fact, a whole new organism and the fruiting body and make a complete transformation and this organism. If we could understand this, how this organism works, well, maybe would understand how tumors come together, or other aspects that have relate to human disease or human function. So that is part of that makes sense. IG: 42:42 Fascinating. Yes-yes. PG: 42:44 Irene, just, I just love to talk. I am sorry, watch, and I realized this joint interview is not working for me, because I have to be, you know, on-on a call. IG: 42:54 When? PG: 42:55 4:30. IG: 42:55 Or. okay, all right, so let us focus on you. [crosstalk] Actually, I am- I found it very interesting what you had to say, and I had some exposure to what you were describing. I am sorry. So, Paul, tell us about your work for the just-just the evolution of your career. You worked at the RAND, you worked at you were working currently at the Brookings Institute. So, tell us, tell us, you know the progression this- PG: 43:41 Oh sure. IG: 43:41 Yes. PG: 43:42 Yes. Well, actually, when I had finished, when I was in graduate school, I became very interested in policy. Actually, I got into healthcare in graduate school, an interesting route of finishing coursework, not being ready to start a thesis and working for a consulting firm which sent me to Nova Scotia to help the provincial governments technical assistance. I won't get into what it was for, but that changed my interests and decided I wanted to do something and applied micro economics, and chose health because that was one of the two areas that Harvard was very strong in. So-so anyway, I started pursuing health care as I was preparing to write a dissertation. Got a dissertation topic in healthcare, and then was going to go into policy. Actually, had a job with the New York City governments. Very attractive job, which I thought that would be a. Was suitable for a draft deferral. Turned out not to be. So, I was found by an enterprising person that in the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, it was named then- IG: 45:15 In New York? PG: 45:16 No in Washington, who you know, had realized that he could use commissioned officers in the Public Health Service interchangeably with regular civil servants. And had recruited, when I was there, about 30 men who were there with two-year commissions. IG: 45:41 Right. PG: 45:43 So that is what I did. Basically, I was- it was doing program officer work which I did not particularly care for, which led me to decide, well, you know, you did not think you wanted to become an academic, but if you this would be the time to do it. So, then I went to Michigan State as an assistant professor there. IG: 46:16 What year was that in the- PG: 46:20 That was 1972 and was reasonably happy there, but not that engaged and was recruited by Duke, which seemed like a more exciting place. It was. IG: 46:37 It was. PG: 46:37 But it was not enough. IG: 46:38 It was not enough. PG: 46:40 So, I took a leave from Duke to join the Congressional Budget Office- IG: 46:47 Oh, wow. PG: 46:48 -which was willing to hire me into a permanent job rather than a visitor. IG: 46:53 Right. PG: 46:55 Knowing I was on leave from the University, and I never went back. IG: 47:02 So, the Congressional Budget Office. What was so exciting- I mean, apart from being in the thick of things? PG: 47:09 Being in the thick of things, you know, doing work that you know, congressional committee staff thought that they needed- as and, you know, being in the policy world. IG: 47:27 So, so just feeling that you have a direct impact on the course of politics? PG: 47:34 Policy. IG: 47:35 Policy. PG: 47:36 That is right. IG: 47:37 So, what- so-so just give us, you know, some of the highlights of your career. I mean, what, what policies did you create that came to. came to light, came to materialize, and what, what effect did they have on launching? PG: 48:02 It was probably best to say policies I was involved in developing, and not claim credit for the policies these change in the way Medicare paid hospitals. That was probably the most impactful thing during my CBO days. There were other policies that I had a role in at later jobs. IG: 48:27 In later jobs. PG: 48:30 In later jobs. IG: 48:31 So how long were you at the Congressional Budget Office? PG: 48:34 Six years. IG: 48:35 Six years. That is from 197- PG: 48:39 8 to 1984. IG: 48:43 And then what happened? PG: 48:48 Yes, and then I actually started getting bored there. Joined the RAND Corporation, which is a think tank. IG: 48:58 I know, I know. PG: 48:59 Yeah, you know, started, you know, to doing analysis for the Air Force, but with a significant domestic program, particularly in health care. IG: 49:10 Particularly? PG: 49:10 In health care. IG: 49:11 In health care, where the Air Force? PG: 49:16 Yeah, there was- Rand was actually initiated by the Air Force. IG: 49:24 So- PG: 49:25 In the 1940s. IG: 49:26 In the 1940s. I did not know that. I lived in Los Angeles. I worked for a university. So of course, you know, but I did not know the Air Force origins. So, you were there for a year? PG: 49:42 Well, I was with Rand for two years. You know, one was in Santa Monica and one was in Washington. And then a congressional Commission was created where Congress wanted, uh, set up a commission to come up with a policy to revamp physician payments in the Medicare program, and I was recruited to be executive director of that commission. Easiest job decision ever to do that so-so that is what I did, starting in 1986. IG: 50:33 So revamped physician payment? PG: 50:36 Payments in Medicare. IG: 50:37 So, did this, did this revision benefit physicians or patients? PG: 50:47 Well, hopefully both, but it was, it benefited some physicians at the expense of other physicians. It just changed the structure of payments as to rewarding visits more highly than procedures, whether I doubt it affected patients that much, except very indirectly. And so that was the commission was very successful because Congress enacted legislation based on the commission's proposals in 1989 and which still functions to this day, so does the hospital payment system. IG: 51:45 So, you actually had a hand in creating policies for- PG: 51:51 Yes, for physician payments. IG: 51:54 That is right for hospital. PG: 51:55 I mentioned the hospital before IG: 51:58 Yes. PG: 51:59 That was when I was at CBO, I had a bigger influence on the physician payment because of actually drawing up the proposal. IG: 52:18 So, we have either you to thank or- PG: 52:22 That is right [crosstalk]. That was a role. IG: 52:27 Yeah. PG: 52:28 Then [crosstalk] I was Medicare, yeah, that was all Medicare. But, yeah, but Medicare, what we did, influenced the rest of the payment system immediately, almost. Then I started a think tank at the invitation to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. IG: 52:49 Oh wow. [inaudible] PG: 52:54 The Center for Studying Health System change. IG: 52:57 That is tremendous. So, tell us about this work. PG: 53:09 Yes, well, that actually involved extensive data collection. The vision on the part of the foundation for this was that this was when President Clinton and Hillary Clinton were, you know, developing a proposal to reform the health care system, which today sometimes referred to as Hillary care. And there was concern that the federal government was not adequately prepared to monitor how healthcare was changing under that reform, and it wanted to fund research to augment what the federal government would-would be doing. Now, of course, the reform did not pass, but the Foundation decided to go forward anyway, because it perceived the health care system on its own was changing very quickly. IG: 54:19 Just-just expand on that last point so, um- PG: 54:24 Well, there were new organizations being created, right new types of physician organizations. Hospitals were acquiring other hospitals and insurance products were changing. So, there was, you know, with managed care was becoming very important. So that was the motivation. And this think tank, the center, you know, conducted surveys of households and physicians. And-and but what it was best known for was conducting extensive site visits in 12 representative metropolitan areas involved interviewing leaders, and, you know, different sectors of the healthcare system and-and sectors that interacted with the health care system, like employers. IG: 55:28 So, which-which health care systems did you interview? PG: 55:36 Well, so-so in a typical- IG: 55:37 Several-several. PG: 55:38 -market it would be, you know, maybe two or three hospitals, if there were physician organizations, either multi-specialty groups or what was called an Independent Practice Association, they were interviewed insurance companies--I mean health insurance companies. What else the state Medicaid program advocates for-for health care for the poor. We interviewed local journalists who covered health care. IG: 56:18 The Wall Street Journal or? PG: 56:19 No, local journalists. IG: 56:20 Local journalists. PG: 56:21 You know what, journalists with the local newspaper that were the healthcare specialists. IG: 56:31 So, what were- what was the result of these findings in terms of change in direction of- PG: 56:43 Well, I think people-people understood what was going on in the healthcare system a lot better than they had before. IG: 56:51 Yeah. PG: 56:51 You know, I cannot point to something that they did because they were better informed. Interestingly, there was a lot always interest in those 12 sites, those 12 metropolitan areas, in finding out how they were different from other places around the country. IG: 57:13 So, these findings came to light in which form, you know- PG: 57:19 In numerous- IG: 57:21 I am not familiar with the world of Washington or policy making and so yeah. PG: 57:27 And numerous publications. IG: 57:29 Yes, numerous publications, so- PG: 57:31 Publications and media interviews. Well, I mean many of the publications, some were articles in peer reviewed journals like health affairs or the New England Journal of Medicine. Many were just, you know, issue briefs, research briefs, published on our website. PG: 57:51 And they had a very big list. You had a very big- PG: 57:55 Oh yeah, you know, 10,000 people, you know, received emails when new publications were released. IG: 58:06 So, you know who accessed this- what kind of people accessed this information? PG: 58:13 Well, I would say both people, state, federal policy, worlds, people in industry. IG: 58:20 Right. PG: 58:20 You know, hospital executives, insurance executives, you know, physician groups. They were the audience. We did not write them for the general public. IG: 58:31 Yeah. GG: 58:32 But they were available. PG: 58:33 They were available. Yeah. IG: 58:35 Does it does- are you still continuing this work? PG: 58:39 No-no. The um- well, you know, the- this function for 19 years, which is a very long time for foundation funded activities, and just the funding could not be sustained. And so, I left in the end of 2013. And became a faculty member at the University of Southern California. IG: 59:12 Oh, that is where I worked, the library faculty. Beginning library faculty. PG: 59:17 I see, yeah. So, I was at the public and still am at the public policy school. But living here. IG: 59:26 You were living here so, but you shuttle back and forth. PG: 59:30 Well, not a lot I do, I do some teaching there, some teaching online. IG: 59:34 I see, I see, I see. PG: 59:36 And I am part of a research group. And you know, these days, you do not need to be physically there. IG: 59:41 It is a great school. I was there in the early (19)90s, and it already was acquiring a reputation of becoming the NYU of the West. It was no longer thought of as the university of the spoiled children. [laughter]I could see us, but it has a fantastic music school, fantastic linguistics. I mean, these are [crosstalk] PG: 1:00:11 Yeah, it is very hard to get in these days. IG: 1:00:13 Very-very. PG: 1:00:14 Undergraduates, at least, yeah, so that, so I joined that faculty, and two years ago, the actually a wealthy individual who had actually been instrumental in setting up the Economics and Policy Center I was affiliated with, called the Schaeffer Center for-for Health Policy and Economics. The Mr. Schaefer wanted to create a partnership between the Schaeffer Center at USC and Brookings, and so that is what led me to come to Brookings, to lead that partnership from Brookings. IG: 1:01:14 So, what-what is now the focus of your work? PG: 1:01:18 It is all on analyzing and developing health policies, health policies. So, I have done a number of different things. IG: 1:01:36 Oh yes. I mean, it is a stellar career. PG: 1:01:38 But that is doing different things, rather than contrast to my father and brother, each of whom had one job in their lives- IG: 1:01:46 Yes. PG: 1:01:49 -changes, I get bored with things. IG: 1:01:51 Right. I understand, but you and your wife- PG: 1:01:56 With everything except women. IG: 1:01:59 Let us, let us, let us just talk about this for the few minutes that you ever meet. So how did you meet your wife? PG: 1:02:08 I do not know exactly, but I was a senior. I was a senior, and she was a freshman at-at Harpur, and it was maybe about halfway through that year. GG: 1:02:23 I do not know exactly either. Most people have a certain date. So, we just, we met sometime, I think maybe spring. PG: 1:02:35 Yeah, probably, I mean, probably the spring semester. GG: 1:02:37 Yeah, he graduated, but then he was in Boston, and I was still at Harpur, and it was not quite so easy in those days to stay in touch. You could, if you but we did not know each other that much that deeply at that point, so I guess we did not. We stopped dating at that point. And then when I moved to Boston after college. We met again. PG: 1:03:03 Yes, that is three years later. GG: 1:03:05 Yeah, and then we got married within the year, yeah, six months or something like that. Because, in a sense, I kind of knew him. I just-just when we had moved to Boston, my roommate and I, we just assumed he was married, but we knew he would know the area. We both knew him a little bit, and so I would just ring him up and-and he was not in town, but he when he came back, he contacted me, and we started dating. IG: 1:03:41 And you discovered that he was not married. GG: 1:03:43 Yeah [laughter] That was even better. PG: 1:03:46 And ironically, this is when I had mentioned that not ready to start a thesis, I was working for a consulting firm and was in Nova Scotia. That is when she contacted me, when I was in Nova Scotia, but when I came back IG: 1:04:00 And you were happy that she contacted. PG: 1:04:02 Yes. IG: 1:04:04 What did you think of Gail at the time? What was she like? Was she the same person that she is now? I mean, some essence of her probably. PG: 1:04:13 Oh, of course, yes. IG: 1:04:15 So, was she the same person? How has she changed? Do you think- PG: 1:04:20 No one has ever asked me that. I mean, I am essentially the same person. Yeah, of course, she has changed. IG: 1:04:31 Yes. How about you? What-what-what-what would your classmates say about you from the time of Harpur College? Could they have predicted that you would have the major career that you did? PG: 1:04:47 Well, I was a good student there, at least for the last two plus years and but I do not know what they would have could have predicted. GG: 1:04:58 He is so understated. He was, like number two in the class. He was the top econ student. And Paul would say this, but I can say it. PG: 1:05:12 But in a sense, actually, what maybe-maybe people would be surprised by, and maybe they would not be, because, say, as a top student going to Harvard, they would have thought, oh, he will be a famous professor, and that is not the career I did. GG: 1:05:31 Paul was ahead. It is sort of in the vanguard of academic people who began to do more practical work than applied work. Academics tend to look down in almost irrespective one, well, maybe philosophy, but- IG: 1:05:49 No, I know the syndrome. GG: 1:05:51 Yeah, and Paul was really brave when he did not mention this. But when he left Duke, did not take his two-year leave every single close friend of his in academia said, "Do not do that and do not leave it. Do not leave academia." And when he was thinking of leaving, he had no support from his friends, really. He had a lot of support from his wife, because happy he was, but and then as far as I was concerned, that is all they counted. But the- but I felt that it was kind of a brave step. May not sound so brave looking back now, but at the time, it was a big deal to be someone who had the academic credentials to be a tenured professor at such a young age at Duke. He was really good and-and he just did not like it. He did not thrive in the environment. And he was wise enough, and we were all supportive enough of him to say. IG: 1:06:54 And this was in what just remind me what the years were. GG: 1:06:58 I do not know. you remember. PG: 1:06:59 That was probably 1978. IG: 1:07:00 1978. PG: 1:07:01 Yes, it is actually so I would say that my peers would have expected me to have a successful career. But I think only the ones that perhaps knew me really well might have imagined anything like the course it took. IG: 1:07:21 Well, I mean- PG: 1:07:22 In fact, they would have been very difficult, even for people that certainly I did not know, IG: 1:07:26 You did not know. How could they have. PG: 1:07:28 Yes, how could they have only, I am just saying think there is room for a very wise person. IG: 1:07:33 Yes-yes. There is always room for a very wise observing person. PG: 1:07:38 That is right. Actually, I will have to ask, we are actually, in a month from now, seeing an old friend from Harpur in New York, and we will have to ask him how surprised, how surprised he was. He was my roommate, friend a year or two. IG: 1:07:57 It is 4:30 if you have to do this. PG: 1:08:01 Yeah. I- IG: 1:08:02 I will. I would like to continue a little bit with Gail. PG: 1:08:05 Sure. Okay, I [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:06 If you- absolutely we can go on if you have time. But- PG: 1:08:10 Actually, I could spend another five or 10 minutes. IG: 1:08:13 Okay, all right. Well, yes- IG: 1:08:16 That is great. I have, I have- GG: 1:08:17 My schedule is flexible. IG: 1:08:18 Yeah, mine is too. My daughter is coming at eight, so I am not going to be here until 8. [laughs]. Okay, so more about you know, Gail and did you feel that during the during your time that the expectations for women students were different than they were for you know- so, you know, people had no problem predicting that Paul would have, you know, the stellar career, but did they have the same expectations for women students, although these were exceptional women students. GG: 1:09:01 It is an interesting question. I think that the university, there were many things about Binghamton University that I really did not care for. I found like little provincial and I felt isolated. I did not- I actually would have been more comfortable in a larger university, and I never realized that about myself. That is not Binghamton fault. That was right. That is just something you learn about yourself. But I would say that the academic environment was too theoretical in almost all disciplines, no matter what subject matter you picked, they took the theoretical perspective. You know, people moaned over the fact that the psych department only was experimental psych, no clinical. And I- IG: 1:09:57 The other day, I heard, said that, um, the clinical side was experimenting on mice. PG: 1:10:05 Yeah, well, that is what she means by experimental. Experimental means with my clinical- IG: 1:10:11 Those are the wet labs. Those are the- so I see. GG: 1:10:15 Yeah, and that. And when I started my math, unlike Paul, who had actually a more practical calculus course, I was hit with theoretical calculus from day one and it was like way over my head. Actually, would not have been over my head if I actually applied myself. But- PG: 1:10:33 You know, I was thinking about that my professor for math. It was his textbook that he used in my class. [laughs] GG: 1:10:40 I remember when I met Paul, he said, "Oh, you should use this textbook, because it will explain it so much better." But anyway, I would say that the academic environment was very welcoming, and it did not matter that I was a woman, I felt, I thought I had lots of opportunities within the university environment. After all, I was doing these sketches, there was another person who was also capable of those sketches, but I got to do them, and he was the other one was a fellow. I never felt discriminated against as a woman, and I know I was sensitive to it because of my mom, who was always pointing out inequities, and I went to an all-girls high school, a magnet school in Manhattan. And- IG: 1:11:29 Where did you go? GG: 1:11:30 Hunter College High School. And so, I would say that I was somewhat primed, even though I do not think I am a strident or feminist. I cannot say I have noticed anything. And I would say that I was also very lucky in my career that I have always had male mentors who did not hit on me. They were great people. They were- it was almost like father figures more. It is kind of the way you think it should be- IG: 1:12:03 Yeah. GG: 1:12:04 and I- IG: 1:12:04 Very lucky. GG: 1:12:05 I think I have been. I do not know whether it is I am so-so used to dealing with I had a lot of male cousins; I and I had a lot of male friends growing up, I was kind of a tomboy, and so maybe I just interact with men in a different way. IG: 1:12:22 In a different way. GG: 1:12:22 But whatever it is, I never felt discriminated against. What I did feel is that I thought that there was a lot out there in the world that had sort of institutionalized sexism more- IG: 1:12:39 Such as such as your first job out of college, being secretary. You went on- GG: 1:12:44 I was not sure that my professors could help me break into the chemistry lab, maybe, but I did not think so. And I was right on- PG: 1:12:52 I had this perception of college. I did not expect that the women were going to just get married and stay home. I do not think many of the women in my class got married when they graduated. Most of them got work of some sorts, and that may have been, you know, distinct from, say, a lot of other colleges. GG: 1:13:18 Yeah, a fair number of women, maybe-maybe the women, you know. But I thought there were quite a few in my year that married. After we-we married, not that soon after I finished college, really. PG: 1:13:30 Yeah. Well, three, four years after. GG: 1:13:34 No. IG: 1:13:35 Oh yeah, that is right. GG: 1:13:36 Nine months. PG: 1:13:37 Yeah. IG: 1:13:38 I mean, you were also, especially your generation was going, I mean, you were the same generation, but your graduating class, this was the time of Woodstock, of a lot of the youth culture and the rebellion of the new youth culture. PG: 1:13:57 I should probably go now. Thank you very much, Irene. IG: 1:13:59 Thank you. PG: 1:14:00 Enjoy. GG: 1:14:04 Thank you. One thing I would have to say is one of my biggest support in anything that I have done since I met him was Paul. He never, ever held me back in any way, he was always supportive, so maybe because he thought it would be much worse, leaving me frustrated at home. [laughs] I do not know. He is not self-serving, so it is just, if he would just take over child care. He was not much of a cook, but he could reheat things, and the kids used to call him the king of reheating. But he was always there to support whatever I had to do, whatever I had a class or something to go to, no problem. IG: 1:14:59 So, it maybe you know more a question of you know his particular personality and- GG: 1:15:09 [crosstalk] IG: 1:15:09 and his family background. GG: 1:15:12 His father jumped in and helped out too. IG: 1:15:15 It was less patriarchal. Do you or not at all- do you remember the (19)60s climate of, you know, rebelliousness, of drug, sex and rock and roll, of questioning everything, fighting the man. Did that have any impact? Or were you- GG: 1:15:39 Much more on me- IG: 1:15:40 Yes. GG: 1:15:41 -then Paul, because graduating in (19)68 was already seemed like the height of it. The beginning of the red wave. Certainly, there was much more political activity at that point than I remembered when I first started college. IG: 1:15:57 Yes. GG: 1:15:58 And-and I was not in the forefront of these movements. I never did drugs. I can be ditzy enough without drugs or alcohol. I can do that all on my own. And I have never had a taste for alcohol and-and I really did not like smoke that much so, but I had a lot of friends who were deep into marijuana culture. I am one of these people. I tend to have people friends from all walks of life. Is funny. I still have evangelical friends and I have socialist friends. IG: 1:16:42 Because you were comfortable with these different political uh- GG: 1:16:47 I guess so. I am always interested in what people how they come to these decisions, what drives them. What motivates them. And sometimes they are very nice people, even who do not agree with their political perspective. The Vietnam War was horrible. It started to come home to us more and more. You were a little isolated from it on campus, because in those days, there was like one television in-in each dorm, I think in the lobby area there would be a television, but you did not really get all that news. I did not, I do not think I even got a newspaper when I was in college, so I felt actually more isolated from the world than when I was living at home, where I would see newspapers and read them each day and but still, the news eventually came on campus, and Harpur was, I think, on the early side of these activities, I come from Staten Island, which was, you know, a great draft board. As far as recruiting for the army, a lot of people, a lot of people signed up for service. I know a lot of the names on that wall on the mall. I feel bad the people I went to elementary school with gone for what no purpose. What I think I missed in college was the beginnings of the feminist movement that seemed to my younger cousins kind of bring me into that more. IG: 1:18:25 But did not that beginnings, I mean, did not it kind of start in the very early (19)70s, or? GG: 1:18:32 I think it did. I think that is what I mean. I think so it was after. IG: 1:18:36 Right-right. GG: 1:18:37 And the same with civil rights. I seem to be a little bit more after my college years. So, I became aware of it just more through reading papers and being back into the real world. IG: 1:18:51 Right-right-right. Were there any students of color that you remember? IG: 1:18:57 Oh, yeah. GG: 1:18:58 Yeah. One of my objections to Harpur is I was accustomed to more diverse student body, and Harpur was the first time I was at a place where it seemed like everyone was Jewish, and I had not been, you know, that familiar with that uniform culture. It was interesting. But they- I think the last year, year and a half, there was more of an attempt to increase diversity. And there were a number of students that came on who were of African American descent, mostly as I recall. I do not think Hispanic or Asian. I do not recall seeing, and actually, I became friendly with some of the people in the program. It was pretty tough on them. They really stood out like sore thumbs. It would not have been as- it would have been a lot easier in a place that had more diversity to begin with. And I-I just know I had some friends who dated fellas in that program, and they got a lot of static in those days. This was interesting. The good friend who was started dating an African American who started to come to the university, and she said to me, you know, all these really liberal people who are out, you know, raging against the war and this and that, the other said they are just as racist as anyone else. And I trusted what she was saying. That was her experience. It was the comments she received and because she was dating someone who was different. IG: 1:18:58 Yeah. IG: 1:20:48 yeah, I think she probably was right. GG: 1:20:51 I am sure she was but frankly, you know, my parents were not ecstatic about Paul being Jewish. IG: 1:20:59 Yeah. GG: 1:20:59 So, I have seen it from the other side. But then when they really met Paul, they loved him. So sometimes you just have to get to know people. IG: 1:21:11 I think so. I think it is I agree, I agree. I think it is a question of exposure. And, uh- GG: 1:21:18 Yeah. So Harpur did not really have a diverse environment. Most days it was uni, fairly liberal, which was more than I was, more liberal than I had seen before. So, I found it that part interesting. IG: 1:21:34 Right-right. So, you know, I am just, you know, you said a lot of very interesting things, that you were given a theoretical education. You know, you were given a theoretical- you were given validation, you know, both as a scientist, as a student of literature, as an artist. Do you think you would have had this opportunity, you know, at another school, at a larger school? I mean, it is too theoretical to say, but you know- GG: 1:22:17 Actually, it is not, because I have my graduate school experience too. There is something about me that I the way, I guess I interact with people or whatever, I have never lacked for support or for mentors, and they just come out of the woodwork. And I do not know how it happens, but I am really lucky that way, I, for example, took to cut down my commute to graduate school. Actually, took some courses, biochemistry courses over at NIH, they had that evening program, and my university was willing to accept the credits. And it just turned out, you know, I think it is because I would stop stay after class and ask questions, and I became friendly with the professors of the course, and that is how I got my job at NIH. Go figure you cannot plan on it. IG: 1:23:17 No, you cannot. GG: 1:23:17 You just cannot plan on happening. But that is exactly how my career has always unfolded. I just have these opportunities fall in front of me, and I take them. IG: 1:23:33 Give us another example. GG: 1:23:38 I think, well, when I was a great graduate student. I-I got a first I started by getting an internship. I got a summer I got a summer internship at a really wonderful lab at NIH, directly from my biochemistry class, they had said, you know, this guy is really good, and he could use someone for the summer. So, I went and talked with him and-and then from there, the fellow who was my mentor at that lab, who unfortunately has passed away, Howard. He went. He met my son, who at that time was a budding computer scientist, but he just and mathematician and everything that he has become. And Howard just went to a meeting and said, "You know, I know about this really young kid. He was too young to really take a job, but he would be great for anyone who needs blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And Adam got a summer internship at NIH too. IG: 1:24:59 Right. [crosstalk] but, you know, part of it is being an insider already, and that that sort of exposes you to the opportunities. You know, it is, I mean, if you were coming out, if you were coming cold, into this, it would have been maybe a more difficult proposition, but you were already in the mix. GG: 1:25:22 Yeah, but they were you know- IG: 1:25:24 [crosstalk] of course. GG: 1:25:25 I was in that class. But [crosstalk] who got- IG: 1:25:29 No but it is but you were, you were the one who was chosen. So- GG: 1:25:33 Yeah, so I was, I always felt like I was fortunate that way. IG: 1:25:37 Yeah. GG: 1:25:40 It is another way. Oh, I know, I had a brief interlude before I went into bio, molecular biology. I spent some time, felt a had a degree in audiology, and I worked for a while there, thinking this would be a very easy kind of time work. You know, I could do that handling with the family and blah, blah, blah, and I did not. I had underestimated just how boring it was. So, I became interested in, I became friendly with the neurologists and the rehab center where I worked, and they would invite me to come in, and we would autopsies of some of the patient. Oh, this is very little gross for some people, but for some of the patients where I had helped with the diagnosis, the- they would invite me to come and see what the physical brain looked like. They were dissecting. They were trying to better understand what was the cause of the problem. There is a lot that you cannot do neurologically. IG: 1:26:51 There is what? GG: 1:26:52 A lot that about neuroanatomy and neurology. It is not well understood even today, no less back then. And so, then that led me to take a neuroanatomy course in the medical school, and I got the top grade in the class on the exam. And the professor did not know who I was, so he held back giving the- he was giving out all the papers, and he held mine for last because he wanted to see who I was. IG: 1:27:28 So that is, well, I mean, it is, it is obviously, you know, it is talent, and I think, you know, kind of an open mindedness and GG: 1:27:39 Curiosity, yeah, I am much less disciplined than Paul. Paul is, like, really a good student. I am a good student if I am interested and if I am not interested well [crosstalk] IG: 1:27:53 But it seems that he gets he gets forward very quickly. So, he- GG: 1:27:56 He does. IG: 1:27:57 He tackles a problem, and then he moves on. GG: 1:28:00 Yeah, he gets restless. IG: 1:28:01 Yeah. GG: 1:28:02 The Seven Year Itch, always Yeah. So, I guess I get restless too. But I was really particularly one of the things I used to really like about working at NIH and I switched from the lab into infectious disease program grants work. Um, and again, because a friend of mine, a clinical fellow who worked in the lab where I worked, we just became friendly, and she had moved over to this position, and then she had an opportunity to recruit me. So, I interviewed, and I was accepted for the job the- but so I became started to get into, back into clinical work and but really using my research background to help with understand the science and help people with their grants. And so, some of it was very administrative. Some of it was program development. IG: 1:29:10 I think that is fascinating. The program development aspect, I think would be very interesting. Did you find it? GG: 1:29:16 I did, yeah, I liked it a lot. I actually ran a US Japan program. IG: 1:29:24 A what? GG: 1:29:26 A US Japan program? IG: 1:29:27 A US Japan, I just did not hear so- GG: 1:29:29 Infection in mycobacterial research. So, the diseases of tuberculosis and leprosy, they are bigger public health issues in Asia, and certainly, when the program was started, they were much bigger. These diseases are, you know, are treated by have drug treatments now that kind of help that they help quite a bit, especially with leprosy, TB still [inaudible] problem. But anyway, yeah, there are programs like that that you can run. I had a lot of there are big projects that we conceive of. We put out an announcement things. Group gets funded, and then I have to have oversight over that project. I started to become the specialist in diagnostics for mycobacterial diseases, and that was very interesting, because it tied in my whole background with small business, because it was actually the small business programs where most of the diagnostics applications were coming in from, and we had noticed- IG: 1:30:48 Please explain that. GG: 1:30:50 Well, NIH has set aside has is required by Congress, and much of the federal government is required by Congress to set aside a certain amount of funding. It is actually a percent of your funds that you receive from Congress have to be set aside and used for small business projects to stimulate small businesses to support their work science. So, these are small businesses that are often offshoots of academic work. Someone from a university has built a patent on something they, on the side, develop a small business, have a few students or people work for them. They put in applications through the small business program. And there are, there is a limit to the type of project that you can do in a small setting like that. And it turns out that diagnostics is a very good approach for small business. It is something you can actually make money on. Have a product that you ultimately sell to a big company, and it is very doable. IG: 1:31:59 Such as I remember reading about a battery size sensor that can diagnose a range of diseases from your breath. It is like- GG: 1:32:16 Yeah, breathalyzer. IG: 1:32:17 Breathalyzer. GG: 1:32:18 Yeah, even though the scientist [crosstalk] IG: 1:32:20 Yeah, really who is the scientist? GG: 1:32:22 Michael Phillips is one of the one of these developers, I think he has a compassionate use approval from FDA for his using heart rejection, IG: 1:32:36 Yeah, for multiple purposes, I think. GG: 1:32:40 He was trying for lung cancer, if for TB, it has been a little [inaudible]. I do not know how his work- IG: 1:32:47 That is right. And the idea of these breathalyzers is that they could be easily used by people in under developed countries where there is no not, not as much theories too. That is a theory. But in reality, that does not work well. GG: 1:33:03 In reality, the world is more complex. IG: 1:33:06 Of course. GG: 1:33:07 Yeah. So, you can get a lot of anomalies that your equipment picks up, too, especially if you are in an area where this is disease is common, and everyone has that. So, there is a lot of it floating around in the air. I see you have to be sure you are picking up something that is specific from that person. And you do not know if that, and there are a lot of technical aspects, but in theory, it has a lot of potential. There is potential for blood tests running able to help. It was, it was a perfect program for me, and everyone began to realize that, and they were sending all the people to me, so I became the go to person at our Institute for small business projects in mycobacterial diseases. IG: 1:33:58 That is, that is fantastic. GG: 1:34:00 Yeah. So, I started out as a literature major, but anyway, well, life evolved. IG: 1:34:08 So, are you still in touch with your Binghamton classmates? Any of them? Or do you have any? GG: 1:34:18 I was in touch with three people from school. Unfortunately, two of them have passed away, and the third one I have kind of fallen out with. I do not see her so much. I saw her up till about maybe five, six years ago, something like that, just off and on. But I think the ones that I lost, I think were the ones that I was closest with, really, and that is unfortunate. IG: 1:34:54 So-so, you know, I think that you. We are kind of coming to sort of a natural end, unless you know, so-so-so you know, some of the things that I some of the concluding questions that I ask my interview is, so what-what you know, life lessons you could you impart to current and future students at Binghamton, what are the most important elements for success, for your success, that really have characterized your career GG: 1:35:44 Well, I think starting out, especially if they are young, they should spend some time getting advice on how to tackle college. I think that there is advice given today that was not available at all when we were there. I think it would have helped some people. I am sure I would have benefited from some advice I learned somewhere between college and graduate school. I learned how to really focus and what was really needed in a classroom, academic setting. And so, I just went through those courses, breezed through them. I think that it would have been if I had just a little bit of advice on organizing and how to go about doing things. I think it would have helped me at that age, for sure. I think Paul stabilized me so much that by the time going through graduate school, it was really easy, even though we had two children at home, and I was handling that on top. I think the second thing though is I would really encourage people to reach out to professors and to reach out to the graduate students and try to engage in an intellectual life in college, because you- it is the one place where You can get an intellectual life, you cannot be guaranteed of it once you leave college. You know your next-door neighbors may be gun toting rednecks. They may be a lot of fun at a barbecue. But they are not going to help you on an intellectual life and-and I find that it can be hard at different points in your life. You really want to know what it feels like to use your brain and to think intellectually so that you can come back to it at different points in your life. If you have never experienced it in college, then when do you expect to and I think colleges should that is something. Our son went to Harvard as an undergraduate, and one of their strengths, they have a lot of weaknesses. It was great for him, but it was one of the strengths, is that they make this intellectual home at every dorm. They have an intellectual life that goes on, the graduate students and people who proctors, who are all part of stimulating intellectual life, and-and Harpur had some of that when we were there. We had people in the dorms, and there was a little bit of that stimulation. And they sometimes younger faculty would be in the dining hall, and you would get a chance to talk with them. Maybe I can get to know them really well. I think that is really important. I think that is something that colleges would strive for, and I think that students should expect and try to get out of college, because it-it then helps you come out into the adult world and-and interact with adults. And to have it-it raises your expectations out of life. IG: 1:39:13 Yes, I think very well, very well, very well. put, very well put, you know, and it just gives you, it is so important to have an intellectual life, because it is part of the human experience that not everybody has an opportunity to- GG: 1:39:34 Yeah, and if you are going to college, that is what you should be expecting, not a technical training. IG: 1:39:41 Yeah, I agree. I agree. Any concluding remarks, anything? GG: 1:39:49 That is fine. [laughs] (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Ginsburg and Gail Ginsburg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni in health policy; Harpur College – Alumni at University of Southern California; Harpur College – Alumni at the Brookings Institution; Harpur College – Alumni at the Rand Corporation; Harpur College – Alumni at the U.S. Congressional Budget Office; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the DC area; Harpur College – Alumni in medical research; Harpur College – Alumni at the National Institutes of Health Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ginsburg, Paul ; Ginsburg, Gail ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paul Ginsburg, PhD is the director, USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy and the Leonard D. Schaeffer Chair in Health Policy Studies, The Brookings Institution; and Professor of Health Policy and Director of Public Policy, Schaeffer Center for Health Policy and Economics, University of Southern California. He also worked at the Rand Corporation, the Congressional Budget Office (1978-84), wrote policies that informed Hillary Clinton's health policy and founded the Center for Studying Health System Change. Gail is a microbiologist with the grants office at the National Institutes of Health. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paul and Gail Ginsburg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-12 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 99:53 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/134f626f7f10f181e17e56f03416a3eb.mp3 a1694a36da4df4a2dbca1204b0f76ca4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c325bcccb98390dd3f53a5104d44c13.jpg 72b7fb1135c37b52fe650f161dec3940 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper Year of Graduation 1963 and 1966 Biographical Text Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Arthur and Nancy Cooper Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 9 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Interview. So for the purposes of the interview, please state your names, that when you were born, when you went to Harpur, the years that you went to Harpur, and when we and where we are at present. AC: 00:19 My name is Arthur Cooper. I was born on February 9, 1943 in Brooklyn, New York. I went to Harpur in 1959 graduated in (19)63. What is the other question? IG: 00:37 Where we are physically. AC: 00:38 And we are physically in my apartment in Manhattan, 79 West 12th Street, and it is March, 11. NC: 00:47 Wrong. AC: 00:48 March 9, 2017. NC: 00:51 Nope. IG: 00:52 2018. AC: 00:54 2018. Oh, okay. And Franklin D. Roosevelt is president of the United States. NC: 01:00 Count backwards by seven from 100. Go ahead. Oh, Jesus. IG: 01:03 And what we're doing? AC: 01:05 And we are having an interview for some Harpur Oral History Project. IG: 01:09 Yes. NC: 01:10 My name is Nancy Thompson Cooper. I was born on January 11, 1945 in Manhattan, New York, and went to Harpur in September of 1962 graduated in June of 1966 and we are in our apartment at 79 West Hill Street getting interviewed. IG: 01:31 Okay, very good. So I would like to know where you grew up and who your parents were, whether your parents went to college. NC: 01:44 My mother went- Okay. I grew up in Greenwich Village in New York. I grew up on the borderline of Greenwich Village in Chelsea, so I had an interesting life. It was interesting as a kid, but I went to Catholic school, which was very confining. IG: 01:59 Yes. NC: 02:00 Also not very smart. The teachers were not so smart. They were not well-educated women. I had fun anyway, and somehow, I got into Harpur. I always thought I was the last person in my class to be accepted. I was on the waiting list because I got in on July 6, but I did find out that somebody else got in in August, on August 29 so I felt better. I was not the last person let in. My father was a display man at Abraham and Strauss department store in Brooklyn. My mother was a New York City public school teacher. She did go to college, graduated from Hunter in 1928 and how I ended up at Harpur, I do not know, but I feel so happy that I did. We could afford it for one thing, and Catholic schools kept giving me unasked full scholarships, and I did not want to go there, and I did not, had not even applied there, but they would call our- the school would say, and the nuns would call me and say, "Hey, want to go to Our Lady of the bleeding blood." I do not know, whatever they would call them. "No, I do not." I want at the time, I thought I would end up in Syracuse, and they warned me that Syracuse girls do not wear bathrobes in the hallway. And this is scandalous. It was scandalous. But anyway, be that as it may, I finally got into Harpur. And I was very pleased. Everybody was pleased, especially money wise, because in those days, if you had a regent scholarship, it covered all your tuition. IG: 03:37 Right. NC: 03:37 The whole, the whole thing, IG: 03:39 Yeah. NC: 03:39 And- IG: 03:40 Room and board as well? AC: 03:41 No. NC: 03:41 No-no, just-just your tuition. My final two years that I was there, I was what they called something, a dorm resident, dorm counselor. Other places had other names for it, which paid all your room and half your board. And I think it cost my parents $279 a semester to send me to college, which was holy crap, really. It was a- I still worked. I worked all the time there. I was a waitress. I was a- I babysat. I worked in a coffee shop. I worked often anyway. IG: 04:20 So-so, I mean, that is so interesting on so many fronts, not-not least that you grew up in Chelsea and the village at the time that you did, but we're the focus for now is on Harpur College. So why did you- so were there are expectations for you of going on to college from in your family? NC: 04:44 Oh, yeah, yes. IG: 04:45 Yeah, because- NC: 04:47 My mother had gone to college, but she was the only one in both sides of the family who had ever gone to college. You know, my father had had not gone, and he had four sisters who did not go. And you know, nobody else did. She just lucked out. IG: 05:03 Right. NC: 05:03 Too long a story, but she did luck out. And so it was expected that, and I expected to go to college. NC: 05:11 I was an only child. IG: 05:11 You were the only child. And what-what was the reputation of Harpur College at the time? IG: 05:11 Were you the only- NC: 05:18 I knew nothing. IG: 05:19 You knew- So why did you decide on that rather than- NC: 05:22 [crosstalk] had a daughter, Ellen, who went to Harpur College and told her about it. IG: 05:26 Yeah. NC: 05:27 When I finally met Ellen [inaudible], I said [making a sound] that she was, she belonged to, there were not sororities, but there were things like that. IG: 05:35 Right. NC: 05:35 And she belonged to one of those things. IG: 05:37 Right. AC: 05:38 See, now she is going to be in this oral history, and- NC: 05:40 I use her name. AC: 05:42 Used her name. IG: 05:44 I do not know her, but we know we may not ever get to- AC: 05:48 But you have insulted a Harpur student just now. NC: 05:52 [crosstalk] to insult our Harpur students. AC: 05:54 Oh! Okay. NC: 05:55 Back it up. No, it was just she was a very different person than I was and I was she wore skirts, and I never did. I have not since, but sorry, I insulted another person. But anyway, no, I did nothing about it, except that it was not a Teacher's College, and I did not want to go to a Teacher's College, pretty much. And I did know this, that Harpur was the, just about the only liberal arts school, I think just around that time, Buffalo and Albany were becoming more liberal arts, but every other state school was teachers. And not that I did not become a teacher, which I did at some point, but I did not want to just focus on one thing that is all. Is that all? IG: 06:46 Yeah, or-for now, that is fine. All right, so-so you, it is your turn. So where did you grow up? AC: 06:56 I was born and bred in Brooklyn, yes, of kind of far out towards Sheepshead Bay in Flatbush. And my father was an immigrant from Poland, came to this country in 1925 and worked in the garment industry as a sweater cutter. My mother was born in New York and went to college. In fact, went to Brooklyn College and became a teacher. Was a public-school teacher. I went to kind of boring local elementary schools and junior high schools in Brooklyn. I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, which I liked a lot. Why did I go to Harpur? NC: 07:44 You have to tell the truth. AC: 07:46 Because my friend, who was also we thought we would go to college together, and he was researching colleges that we could afford, and through their catalogs, and he found a college that had no gym requirement. It was Harpur College, and so we both immediately went to Harpur College. And of course, when we got there, they had a gym. NC: 08:10 They did not have a requirement because they did not have a gym. AC: 08:12 They had just built the new campus in Vestal, or they were building the campus in Vestal, and by the time we got there, there was a gym requirement. But as long as I was there, I stayed. AC: 08:12 And so and so. That is interesting. So that was the only reason there must be- , AC: 08:29 No, well, I had it in terms of what my family could afford. It was a choice of Brooklyn College or Harpur College, IG: 08:37 I see. And why Harpur College rather than, you know, SUNY Albany or some other SUNY? AC: 08:42 Oh, I did not. Harpur College at that time had a very exclusive reputation for being a hard to get into high quality academic liberal arts college that was part of the State University of New York, and it was almost free. Albany was the Teachers College. IG: 09:04 I see I did, I did. So, and what was your, what was your first impression when you arrived? Were you, you know, you grew up as a city kid? Had you ever gone to the country, to upstate New York before visiting? AC: 09:24 Well, I went to summer camp, and we took vacations and things my when I got to Harpur, it was a construction site. It was, this was just what they were still holding classes in Endicott, New York, which is no eight miles away or 10 miles away, and then, but they had built a few dormitories on this hill in Vestal. And in those days, there was nothing around it. There was not a shopping mall right down the road. It was a deserted mud dump. NC: 09:58 It was mud. AC: 09:58 It was mud for- NC: 09:59 Mud with boardwalks to get across. AC: 10:04 But I was happy. I mean, I was I did not want it. I wanted to leave home. I wanted to go to a real college where with a, you know, dormitory life and so on. And I had several friends whom I knew from high school, and I was happy as a pig. IG: 10:20 Several-several kids from your high school went there and, uh- AC: 10:25 Yes-yes. NC: 10:27 I knew nobody. IG: 10:28 Yeah. NC: 10:29 Well, and I knew nothing about and, but I had seen it. My parents took the driving trip one summer and showed me different colleges that we could not afford. Went including, we visited Harpur. It was closed. It was the summer, but we saw it and but I knew what to expect. So I had seen it. I was thrilled to leave the city to go to a school like that. IG: 10:55 So it was a- NC: 10:57 Sea of mud. IG: 10:58 It was a sea of mud. NC: 10:59 And there were no trees. There were no bushes. During my freshman year, Nelson Rockefeller came to make a speech, and they planted a whole bunch of trees one day. IG: 11:12 What that is what year was that? NC: 11:14 It would have been 1960 it would either been the fall of (19)62 or the spring of (19)63 and he came and they planted all the trees, and then after he left, they dug them all up and took them away. IG: 11:26 Was this the time- that is that is incredible. Was this a time that he ignored the anti-war protesters on campus? NC: 11:36 No, this is way before that. Way before that. This is, and this is when he, we did not know in those days that he was dyslexic, but I believe he turned out that he was, when he called our president, Dr. Bartlett, repeatedly, and his name was Dr. Bartle, but-but, and, but, somebody who was up there said he had big head cards with big block letters, which would you know- What- we did not know about these things in those days. I do not think many did, but he came to made a speech about something I have no idea we-we may have gone or may not have gone, but they took the trees. IG: 12:12 Reminds me of another person who has cue cards for- NC: 12:17 Oh yes-yes. Listen, I hear you. IG: 12:23 It is just off the record. Okay, so we know what were. Yeah. NC: 12:32 I was a freshman in a dormitory that was all double rooms, but was so crowded we were triples. It was very so every room there should have been two girls, was three bunk bed. It was very crowded, and it was all freshmen. And it was the only year, to the best of my knowledge, they ever made in all freshmen dormitory, which isn't a good idea. It just is nobody to tell you things, right, except your dorm residence. And my dorm resident said, one of the very first meetings said there are people you should there are three crazy people on this campus. Absolutely do not go near them and name two, and the third she named was Arthur Cooper. So there was that, but- IG: 13:16 And why did, why did Art Cooper have that reputation. NC: 13:16 It was [crosstalk] IG: 13:20 So, were you intrigued? NC: 13:22 No, I was afraid. IG: 13:23 You were afraid. So how did- NC: 13:25 But he was a senior. I was a freshman. I did not know, really. IG: 13:28 So how did you make your acquaintance with Art Cooper in [crosstalk] NC: 13:33 -small place. IG: 13:34 Yes, it was a very small place. AC: 13:37 One of the things that was so special about Harpur is that it was so isolated, just a few 100 kids living in dorms in a mud heap in the middle of nowhere, nobody had cars, nobody had money, that we got to know each other much better than NC: 13:58 One might have. AC: 13:59 One might in a normal university where-where there was a world outside the dormitory, and we- many of, I mean, we are still friends 50 years later, with lots of people [crosstalk] we knew from Harpur or from Harpur. And this is, I think this is unusual compared to other people I know. NC: 14:21 And really a lot like, like, a lot of us. AC: 14:24 Because we were, I mean, we were, we had classes, you know, 12 hours a week, but we were there 24 hours a day with nothing to do except get into trouble or get into mischief or fool around. IG: 14:37 So tell us [crosstalk] NC: 14:38 In freshman year, in freshman year, one girl came with a car, one. IG: 14:42 Right. NC: 14:42 And she was called Michelle Buick. I do not know her name, and she only, and she had to be. She did not last. She was gone after a fresh- she transferred out. We were too- IG: 14:52 Because [crosstalk] she was [inaudible], she-she was giving rise to two minutes. NC: 14:56 No-no-no-no-no. We were not high class enough. We were, sounds silly, but we're all really smart and pretty poor, a lot of a lot of my friends who lived in Manhattan at that time, it changed over time we lived in tenements. We did not if this was- I liked the food. Nobody likes the food in college, but I had spent summers in a different place where the food was so awful that the food in college seemed fabulous to me. IG: 15:29 And it was all very plain fare, right? AC: 15:31 It was a meal plan that you were obliged to be on. NC: 15:31 It was relatively plain, and you could not have, like, you could not have a piece of pie and an apple. So you have, you were forced to steal if you wanted to have an apple later, you had to, like, steal the apple, because [crosstalk] No, [crosstalk] NC: 15:49 You had to. AC: 15:50 And it was pretty mediocre food. NC: 15:53 It was, it was fine with me, except for the no two desserts. IG: 16:00 So how did you spend your free time? You said that you had a lot of time to get into trouble. And how did you get into trouble? What were the occasions for- NC: 16:11 It was the (19)60s. IG: 16:12 It was the (19)60s, but it was the early (19)60s. NC: 16:15 We were- AC: 16:16 We were very precautious. IG: 16:19 You were precautious. AC: 16:20 There was a lot of drinking. In those days 18 was the age of consent for drinking in bars in New York- NC: 16:29 But I have been drinking since 16. AC: 16:32 Many of us were not even 18 when we were freshmen at Harpur, I was 16, but the bars did not really care. They would be happy to sell you a 10-cent glass of beer. NC: 16:44 Broome County issued what was called a sheriff's card. Broome County would come onto the campus and the police would take your picture and make it official ID so that if you wanted to drink, you would have your sheriff's card. I lost mine. I found my Harpur ID card from 1962 but I do not have my sheriff's card, but that nobody looks that you drank everywhere. AC: 17:06 The Triple City Traction Corporation ran a bunch of busses on schedule into Binghamton or into Johnson City or into Endicott. So you could, you could take a bus or but mostly, we hitchhiked a lot. I hitchhiked. I mean, I lived off campus for years that I hitchhiked back and forth. NC: 17:25 We had parietal rules for the women. It was we had to be in a dorm at 10:30. On Friday and Saturday night, I think it was midnight. IG: 17:34 Right. NC: 17:35 And you could have two extra 12 o'clock this semester. It was insane, but when you think about it now, you could your parents had a sign of consent form of when you could stay off campus, like, can she go to religious retreats? Yes, can she stay with a friend in town? Yes. Well, everybody stayed in other place. The boys were allowed to live off campus, but they were not allowed to have a kitchen. AC: 18:05 Depends which year you're talking about. The rules kept changing. NC: 18:09 But they were allowed to have a kitchen because they were not supposed to be on the meal plan. IG: 18:12 Right. NC: 18:13 And so they would build like fake walls to cover the kitchen. AC: 18:18 Be respected by somebody from Harpur. NC: 18:20 And you could not have a kitchen sometimes. IG: 18:23 So you built a wall? AC: 18:25 I personally never you never- NC: 18:27 You never had it, but I know people who did have to do that in Floral Avenue. AC: 18:31 They put up a piece of sheetrock. NC: 18:36 But girls, but when you were a senior, you could have a key. The dorms were locked. There was bed checks. You had to sign in every night. Somebody had to sit in the office. That would have been a job of someone like me. But when you were a senior, you got a key, and you could use the senior key. And I was on the senior key committee in my senior year, and that was when we finally got them to agree that girls could live off campus and but I did not go because it was for the last semester of college that just seemed insane, although a few people I know did immediately leave, but I did not. But-but- IG: 19:15 Did these restrictions seem ludicrous harsh to you at the time? NC: 19:21 Yeah, they did. They seemed absolutely ludicrous. AC: 19:24 You could have, you could not have the opposite sex in your dormitory ever, except maybe four Sundays a semester. And the rule was four feet on the floor. NC: 19:35 And doors open, four feet on the floor. That was, that was the rule. IG: 19:39 Who would enforce these who would- NC: 19:41 There was like, it was not called a Dean of Women, but it was like the director of women's housing, was the enforcer. And then the- NC: 19:46 How would she know? Would she be patrolling? The- NC: 19:53 [crosstalk] would devolve down to someone like me, a dorm counselor. IG: 19:57 I see, I see, I see. But would you yell on infractions or- NC: 20:01 No, I never, I never reported anybody for anything. But, and there was absolutely no alcohol on campus. And yet, I remember somebody running down to my room saying, your friend needed a drink. And did I have a bottle of alcohol? Of course I did, and so she gave it to him. But just anyways, no, it was very, very strict, but, but then we hang, what did we do? We talked, we talked. IG: 20:33 What did they talking about? NC: 20:34 Everything. We were very interested in civil rights, really. Before-before Vietnam was, there were people who were sophisticated enough to know about the war, but we were much more interested in civil rights and the Civil Rights Club, but it was a really big deal. There was one television down in what they called something. It was not the it was, it was on the bottom through AC: 20:59 The basement of the dormitory. NC: 21:00 Yeah, there was a TV, but nobody ever watched TV except the night the Beatles were first in America, and then there was, there was a television in the student center. There was a TV room where we what we will ran when we heard the President had been shot, and then we went up to watch Walter Cronkite. But we talked, we talked, we talked and talked, and then what else we played. I played cards. I played cards. If anybody said, "Where were you when the Cuban Missile Crisis," I was playing cards in the snack bar. And where were you when Kennedy was shot, I was playing cards in the snack bar. Then we ran when we heard- AC: 21:42 The snack, the snack bar was the living room for the whole the whole college. IG: 21:50 So how many people could fit in? I mean- AC: 21:53 Hundreds. I mean, there were only 800 students total in the college, [crosstalk] and some of them were locals, but so there was plenty of room in the snack bar, and people cut classes and set the snack bar all day. NC: 22:08 I graduated in the bottom 10 of my class, not the bottom 10 percent , the bottom 10. IG: 22:16 What did you, what did you study? You said liberal arts. NC: 22:19 History. NC: 22:20 I studied more or less medieval history, and I still like it, and [crosstalk] but I you know anyway, IG: 22:21 History. NC: 22:22 Was that the Catholic girls education- NC: 22:33 I know why, what it would have I would have been better off studying English, because in those days, the kind of criticism they did really was-was a lot about symbolism. And man, if you were Catholic, you could have them like that. However, you needed to know a language, and I that meant you had to go to a class and actually study French or something. And I did not. AC: 22:53 Harpur had a very strong English department in the early days, much stronger than most of the other NC: 22:59 It was really it was famous. AC: 23:01 I mean, a lot of serious Ivy League PhD scholars. IG: 23:06 So is that what you studied? AC: 23:07 Yeah, I majored in English. IG: 23:09 So who-who did you study with? Do you remember- AC: 23:13 The most famous professor was Bernard Huppe, who taught the Chaucer and Middle English in those days to be an English major. It was so rigorous you were obliged to take old English. Can you imagine that you have to actually take old English and Chaucer and not only shake it, of course, in shakes, you had to take Milton. Can you imagine a whole semester of Milton. NC: 23:41 You did not have to take the Bible. NC: 23:41 And the Bible. NC: 23:43 But It was available. AC: 23:45 But it was a very it was as rig- I mean, they were trying to out Harvard-Harvard in terms of rigor for the English department. And they all, they-they were largely Catholic, the professors, or they were certainly, they- AC: 24:01 They certainly had a Christian- AC: 24:02 -Had a Christian, [crosstalk] A great professor was Weld, John Weld, who taught Milton, because nobody else would teach Milton, although Milton's beautiful. Francis X Newman was- NC: 24:26 Taught medieval literature as well as and I recently went to a not that recently, but in the last 15 years or so, an alumni event where he was giving a speech, and I had had him for a few classes. And what was he speaking? He was speaking about Alger, Horatio Alger, who's the who's the rugged dick. But it was not, it was Horatio Alger books. That is what he was teaching now. And I said, Wow, that is what, you know, I later in my life, I sold rare books and things, and. AC: 24:59 No, there were no fun courses nowadays. And you look at a college catalog, there are courses you actually might want to take, price novels about price fighting or movies about, [crosstalk] And those days- NC: 25:15 Now be a English major and never read anything written before 1920 say, whereas- IG: 25:20 That is unfortunate. NC: 25:22 Well, it is, but we-we really had a rigorous education. IG: 25:31 Your classmate, Ron Bayer said that the Harpur educational system was built on the University of Chicago- AC: 25:44 Yes- IG: 25:46 -liberal arts model- AC: 25:48 first year freshmen, or maybe freshmen, sophomores had to take literature [crosstalk] NC: 25:54 And 104, social sciences 101, 102. AC: 25:59 They were like core-core courses assured that you knew something about the entire history of the world. IG: 26:07 Did you find your classes enlightening? Did you enjoy them? NC: 26:15 Not so much. AC: 26:16 It depends. IG: 26:18 Tell us what you enjoyed, what did you like, and what made an impression, positive or negative? AC: 26:33 There were a lot of very- NC: 26:34 Different then, for example, in the snack bar, there was a kind of a wall, and the professors would go get because it was the only place you get something deep. They was eight in the other side of the wall. They never mingled. They did not chat with you. They did not talk to you. I did do some babysitting for various professors kids. So then they would pick me up in a car and take me to their house and then bring me home. So you might have a few words with them, but they were not friendly, and both of my children, who are not children, but one is 46 and the other is 38 but when they were in college, they were invited to tea, to the house, or come over for a party. It was a very different social scene than we had. Our professors did not- were not friendly, and did not really know who you were. For the most part. IG: 27:28 Was that your experience? AC: 27:31 Certainly for the freshman and sophomore years, it got much better as you were a junior or senior and majoring in something- NC: 27:40 So you might have had the same guy more than one time. AC: 27:44 But they fared. A lot of them were very mediocre. I mean, when I started out, they were teachers in the Triple- in the Triple Cities Community College branch of Syracuse University. I mean, that is what Harpur was. Harpur was a two year it was founded by Syracuse to accommodate veterans coming back after World War Two. IG: 28:06 Oh, I did not know. AC: 28:07 And it was in Endicott in in huts, right? I mean, in shabby-shabby. IG: 28:15 But yet it had this-this reputation of being well, NC: 28:19 Not that, not quite then. AC: 28:23 Then the state bought it, turned it into a full year liberal arts college, and made it good. But a lot of the professors were-were there since-since before they were, there were a lot of mediocre people around. IG: 28:40 Were there any outstanding ones that you remember? NC: 28:43 There was some very interesting ones. IG: 28:45 Interesting. Okay, so interesting. Let us do interesting. NC: 28:48 Amy Gilbert- IG: 28:49 Yes. NC: 28:50 Amy Gilbert, who was quite old. Now I do not know, because now I am old. I believe she was older than that I am now because she had been a journalist. She had been at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. She was talking, she had been in France, and she heard they were going to sign the treaty. We jumped on our bicycles and we raced out to Versailles. I mean, what is the first thing a historian does? What is the first thing? What is the first thing? Write it down. IG: 29:19 Yes. NC: 29:20 And I mean, but she-she really taught things that were kind of meaningful. She was not boring. IG: 29:26 No, [inaudible] AC: 29:28 Who was the art-art professor? NC: 29:32 Was it Ferber? AC: 29:34 No-no. NC: 29:35 Lindsay. Lindsay. AC: 29:36 Lindsay. Kenneth Lindsay was [crosstalk] was famous because in world, he was part of the American army that was recapturing stolen German art. There was movies about a railroad [crosstalk] IG: 29:55 Yes. AC: 29:55 Well, he was one of them. NC: 29:57 Oh, he is dead now. IG: 29:58 How interesting. AC: 29:58 Yes. IG: 29:59 How interesting. Yeah, so-so you had these, you think that these professors were the exception, rather than the rule that they- AC: 30:11 The school was growing so rapidly. It was doubling in size every year or two, and the faculty was doubling in size, and the more the new faculty were, had higher- NC: 30:25 I honestly did not- [inaudible] went to class [crosstalk] do anything [inaudible] IG: 30:33 So it was - NC: 30:34 Every semester I got [inaudible]. IG: 30:36 Well, it was what they say now, of MFA program that the-the hard part is getting in, but when once you're there, you can- AC: 30:47 Well, you have to be good enough to have a keep up a C average. NC: 30:50 I did not want to flunk out, so I did the minimum that I had to do. I was not sure. I always kind of thought I would be a teacher, but I would go to Bank Street, and Bank Street did not care about your marks. I had two or three personal interviews, AC: 31:11 [inaudible] submit finger prints. NC: 31:13 Shut up. I had personal interviews. I had to write 1000-word essays about myself. I could do that like that. It did not and Bank Street, but I had my best friend in senior year, Carol. I can say her name, she did, but she would go to the office about every two or three weeks to check her standing in class because she was applying to law school. And-and she said, "You want to know you?" I said, "No, I do not want to know." And I got through my whole senior year not knowing until they gave me my diploma, and I opened it up to see it was the right one. And there was a transcript and said, standing in class like 496 out of 506 kids, I was the bottom 10. AC: 32:01 No, I got good grades. IG: 32:02 Did you care or? NC: 32:04 No, I think it is hilarious. IG: 32:05 You thought it was hilarious because it was. NC: 32:08 It was not that the important, the I thought the best thing that ever happened to me still was that I went to Harpur. How lucky I was. I made friends, lifelong friends. I got a husband. I was exposed to the whole world. I had huge amounts of fun. I- it was, it was just the best thing that ever happened to me. But the going to school part was not that part. AC: 32:35 I took school more seriously than you did. I do not remember where I graduated, very high. Like in the top- NC: 32:43 Yeah, you graduated the 20th or the 13th or the sixth, AC: 32:47 I had lots of A's. NC: 32:48 Yeah, no A's, but, um, but it was it-it changed a lot. Now, Arthur is he graduated in (19)63 I graduated in (19)66 Ronnie graduated in (19)64 so each of us would have had a different kind of somewhat experience. IG: 33:06 So, how did you actually meet? You know, you met at college, and then how did you- IG: 33:13 You kept meeting. So you kept visiting. Nancy or- NC: 33:13 We kept meeting. AC: 33:17 No-no, I had another wife. NC: 33:19 He had another wife, was also Harpur- he only marries Harpur girl and- AC: 33:26 But it was a, it was a small crowd. We had parties together. NC: 33:30 You lived in Johnson City. Yeah, you were a teacher at Johnson City High School. AC: 33:34 Right. NC: 33:34 And then I had friends and, but then I just got, I met you. AC: 33:40 Right after I graduated, I went to graduate school in Florida for a year, and then I came back and lived in Johnson City. [crosstalk]I lived in Binghamton and taught high school in Johnson City, high- IG: 33:52 So what did you get your graduate degree in? AC: 33:53 I never got a graduate degree in anything. But I was, I was studying for a master's in English. IG: 34:01 I see, I see, so you returned after that year. AC: 34:05 Because my wife was still an under mighty first wife was still an undergraduate. IG: 34:11 I see. AC: 34:12 Two more years to go, I think. NC: 34:13 But then years, you know, then- AC: 34:16 And it was great living. And it was somewhat expensive. I had a five-room apartment with a front and a back deck for $75 a month. You could buy a whole pizza for 75 cents. My first job for teaching in Johnson City High School, I made $5,200 a year. I was rich. I could buy a new I bought a new Volvo, and lived for a year on that it was, was a great place to live. IG: 34:44 It is, it probably was a different city. It was not economically depressed. AC: 34:44 Oh yes, it was always [crosstalk] IG: 34:48 It was prosperous. It was a prosperous city, the city of IBM. No? IG: 34:56 It was already depressed. It was already beginning to be depressed. NC: 34:56 IBM was, was IBM was in the process of leaving. Johnson Endicott, Johnson Shoe Company was already pretty much over. And that was huge. It was called, it was a really big company, EJ, but that no, it was, it was kind of depressed city. AC: 35:19 But that was good because rents were cheap. Food was cheap. I mean, you could buy pierogies for a nickel at the Russian church every Friday. AC: 35:24 Supermarket and- AC: 35:32 Get bologna three pounds for $1 [laughs] NC: 35:39 It was all it was cheap with cheap-cheap living. IG: 35:41 So-so you know you- let us talk about what you know politics were in the air. You- did you fear being drafted. AC: 35:57 You did. It depends what year, but yes, politics were very much in the air, and I was one of the more in one of the more left-wing noise making crowds. There was a club called the progressive Socialist Society, founded by a couple of unrepentant Stalinists. And, among other things, we- Herbert Aptheker. We-we arranged for an actual communist. Herbert W Aptheker. He was a PhD in history, and he was really an expert on slave rebellions. But that was not important. What was important was he was a communist, and we invited him up to campus to speak. And this created such a brouhaha in the Binghamton press and in the pen, in the Sun Bulletin and town gown. Relations were very low at that time anyway, because Harpur kids were beatniks and so on. Not yet hippies, they were just beatniks. IG: 37:20 Were you at that? Did you- NC: 37:22 There were two kinds of people on campus. Well, sort of there were the upstate and the downstairs, and then they were called the sickies that would be downstate people, or people of that, who might like that from the upstate and clubbies who would might belong to a social club we did not have, we did not have fraternities, but there were social clubs that-that mostly boys belong to girls, but- IG: 37:52 You did not, you did not. AC: 37:54 I did not know. And to its credit, the college allowed Aptheker to speak, and it was a big deal. It was surrounded by policemen and everything. And- NC: 38:03 This is before my time. IG: 38:05 Yeah. AC: 38:05 And he came and he spoke and he went. NC: 38:07 And but so did. But also Eleanor Roosevelt came, right? IG: 38:11 Right. AC: 38:12 Yes. NC: 38:14 And [crosstalk] AC: 38:17 There were a lot, and it was also the era of the beginning of civil rights. It was- (19)63 was the, you know, the year of taking busses down to register people to vote. IG: 38:29 And did you? AC: 38:30 I did not. But people we knew did. Joined [crosstalk] NC: 38:38 [inaudible] and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. IG: 38:42 Were there any students of color that you remember from- AC: 38:46 Almost none. NC: 38:47 Two. AC: 38:47 Who were they? NC: 38:49 Julius Mangi, who, for some reason, came from Africa. And he thought he was, I think he thought he was going to go to NYU, but he ended up in SUNY. AC: 38:57 And Krishna. AC: 38:57 Right. He thought he was going to State University of New York. He thought he would be in New York, and he was in Vestal and he was the only black person in Vestal. [laughs] AC: 39:00 He was an Indian. NC: 39:12 And then there was a Margot, something, Margot, oh, Yvonne Yancey, I mean- AC: 39:18 But very few. If they were five in the whole campus. [crosstalk] professors. NC: 39:24 But there were, that is true there. But it was very active civil rights club, very active. And also going up to picket HUAC is House Un-American Activities Committee. They were they were resurgent in Buffalo. We took busses up to picket. I have pictures of me picketing outside of someplace I do not know. I go to work. IG: 39:53 Were you protesting against the house of Un-American Activities? Could you tell us about that? NC: 39:58 I can I. Forgot. IG: 40:00 You forgot. Okay, NC: 40:05 I thought about it, but, uh, IG: 40:06 Well, maybe, maybe you will remember in the course of this conversation, so you were active in this sort- NC: 40:16 [crosstalk] civil rights this did happen to me in Binghamton, and I do not even know why I did nothing about it at the time, there was a Conklin Avenue. Was a street near the river, was like right along the river, and there was an apartment building, and being with an apartment building might have only been two or three stories right. that refused to rent an apartment to a black dentist who had moved to Binghamton. So the Civil Rights Club decided they would picket this building, and I do not even remember what the outcome was, but we kept a picket line going in front of that building for a while. We all had shifts, and I had a shift with somebody whose name I forgot. His first name was Fred. I remember the rest of his name. Just the two of us on a Sunday morning, and we were on the sidewalk. There was a low a low brick wall and some hedges, and a car pulls up and like three guys jump out, pull out a long gun, like a rifle, aim it at us. We both leaped over the wall and lay down, and they laughed and got back in the car and drove away. And we have not told anybody. And I just think that all of that is very surprising when I think about it. And I was a freshman, then that was surprising. IG: 41:36 And-and, so do you remember approximately when this happened? NC: 41:41 I thinking it must have been in the spring of (19)63 in that it was not raining and we were not freezing, but I do not know. IG: 41:51 Did you tell anybody? NC: 41:53 Well, we may have told other friends, but we never told anybody in authority or the police or anything. IG: 41:58 Because? NC: 41:59 It never occurred to us. IG: 42:00 It never occurred because you were afraid that you were in some way- NC: 42:04 No. IG: 42:05 Breaking- NC: 42:05 No. It just did not occur to us. IG: 42:08 Did not occur to you. AC: 42:09 Because the place where the pigs- NC: 42:11 We did not think that then, I did not think that then, but anyway, but that would that was one thing that happened, another crazy thing that happened with the Civil Rights Club that was insane, and we had to get special permission from the head of women's housing. There was a department store called Brits, and it was in a shopping mall rather small, just a mile or so from the campus called Vestal Plaza and on George Washington's birthday, for reasons I do not know what they were going to have a- they were going to give silver dollars away for the first 200 people who got to the store. So the whole Civil Rights Club went there. 430 in the morning. We had to get permission for the girls to leave the campus and walk over there and get there when we all line up, we all got the silver dollars to donate to some civil rights organization you might have been there. IG: 43:13 So what, you know, I am just interested what took place at this in this kind of you said unrepentant. There were unrepentant Stalinists. AC: 43:24 It was more [crosstalk] Nothing serious. Nothing took place. Just to piss off the administration was like the [crosstalk] NC: 43:33 That was the goal of everything. AC: 43:36 -to see what you could do to make Dean Belniak's blood pressure go through the roof. NC: 43:41 Or just to see what you could get away with. Could you really sneak out and not get caught? Or could you really have had three bottles of brandy in your room and not get caught or, or could you have a boy in your room and not get caught? And- IG: 43:57 It is just testing the boundaries. NC: 44:00 It may have been something like that. That would not have been me, exactly, but-but I know that people did that. AC: 44:07 I was on the convocations committee that was which was [crosstalk] one of the highlights of my career at Harpur, the convocations committee had an annual but it was students, faculty and administration met [crosstalk]I do not know how often to plan the year's convocations, and- NC: 44:28 Meaning who you invite to the meeting. AC: 44:30 Meaning what- IG: 44:32 Right. AC: 44:35 Placido Domingo came up before anybody ever heard of Placido Domingo. It was, he looked like this. I thought he was a Mexican. He was not Mexican. Dispatched a Mexican. Came by bus. IG: 44:47 By bus? AC: 44:48 By bus from New York to Binghamton to sing for right, $100 maybe $150- we had a- IG: 44:55 Where was he then? Who? What opera was he in? NC: 44:58 [crosstalk] Our son, Michael, who is a reporter right now, is a, it is not a critic. He is a reporter for music, classical music, dance. And he knows Placido pretty well after all these years. And he once said, my father and mother saw you in Binghamton because it was early, ugly. But we, but no, you had the best thing I ever saw. There was Jose Contreras, Circle in the Square, Production of Under Milk Wood that you and W. H. Auden came. I mean we- IG: 45:22 [crosstalk] serious? AC: 45:24 No, I was his escort. I spent- IG: 45:29 Of whom? AC: 45:33 W. H. Auden. [crosstalk] NC: 45:38 He wore slippers, he wore orange bedroom slippers. AC: 45:45 And he somewhat disgraced himself. [crosstalk] I was a senior and we had the convocations committee, I guess, through an agent or through his publisher. You know, once you're holding convocations, they come to you asking for gigs. And he came up to give a speech. He came up the day before there was a little like a motel unit apartment for celebrities upstairs from in the snack bar building. IG: 46:08 How glamorous. AC: 46:20 And I was a senior, and I was at the time, I thought I was going to go to Africa to join the Peace Corps. And so he and I had a long talk about Isk Dinesen and Kenya and Africa, and- IG: 46:34 Had he been to those parts? AC: 46:36 He or me? I do not know if he had. I certainly had not, but he knew he was like innocent or and we I picked him up for breakfast. We went to the stack well for breakfast, we sat around and had breakfast. IG: 46:52 So how did you he strike you? What did he was? What? How did he look like [crosstalk] AC: 46:58 He was, he was a drunk. He was a pathetic drunk. NC: 47:04 But he still read his poetry and he was charming and he was neat. IG: 47:09 Do you remember what he read? AC: 47:11 No. IG: 47:11 No, you do not remember. Would it be on record what he read? NC: 47:15 It might be in the if they have the Annals of the newspapers. AC: 47:19 I do not know. NC: 47:21 There was still called the Colonial News. IG: 47:25 -is in the process of working [crosstalk] AC: 47:29 It have been in the spring of (19)63. IG: 47:36 So he was, he was already drunk. AC: 47:39 No, he was not. IG: 47:40 In the morning? AC: 47:41 No-no. But by the time he read at the auditorium or the theater in the evening, IG: 47:49 After he read? AC: 47:50 No, before, during he was kind of, his teeth were kind of falling out of his mouth, a little, sloshing around, but, but it was brilliant. I mean, I am not trying to [crosstalk] IG: 48:05 Were, you know, all of the English faculty kind [crosstalk] NC: 48:08 I think everybody was, look, yeah, as we have said, there was nothing to do. We had this theater that really the convocations committee. AC: 48:17 Then they hired the Guarneri Quartet for several years, the Guarneri Quartet was artist in residence at Harpur. NC: 48:27 And they were phenomenal. And you could go to the free rehearsals. It was free. AC: 48:31 And their performances, artists in residence, mean they gave four or five performances a year, or- NC: 48:39 At least. AC: 48:40 -maybe more than that. And you could go to them, and they were all 27 years old at that time also. NC: 48:48 One of them was, it was David Sawyer, I believe, who- AC: 48:52 The cellist. NC: 48:54 -who could not record because he was a heavy breather. And in those days, they did not know how to get that sound out. But, of course, later on he was, they were making recordings. But we had the Pearl Lang Dance Company. We had, we had amazing shows. NC: 49:11 And Peter and [crosstalk] NC: 49:13 Peter Wood was-was-was the outstanding thing in my mind, but-but that we saw lots of things- are just people who- AC: 49:22 There was also a lot of student produced theater. We had a really pretty high quality. NC: 49:28 [crosstalk] matches. AC: 49:29 Okay, there you go. NC: 49:31 You and you were in the sandbox. AC: 49:33 I played daddy in the sandbox. NC: 49:36 No, and you played Uncle Tom in Uncle Tom's Cabin, right? AC: 49:40 That was different. But, yeah. IG: 49:41 Why is it different? AC: 49:44 It was not a real it was not, was not a real theatrical production, on the stage with an audience. NC: 49:51 It was in the coffee house. AC: 49:53 Yeah. NC: 49:53 But they tried to, I mean, we had a good time. IG: 49:57 You had a good time. And I think sounds like you were exposed to really kind of a deep culture with some really important cultural and- AC: 50:07 The prevailing attitude was Marx Brothers, Looney Tunes. IG: 50:13 Yeah. AC: 50:13 I mean, at least IG: 50:17 In America, and kind [crosstalk] AC: 50:19 No, the attitude among my friends and fellow students. We were wise guys. NC: 50:26 Funniest people I ever met in my life. I and I do not think you can be really funny unless you're really smart. And I could not believe my good fortune to be in this place with people. I hope we're just hysterical now, even now on Facebook, we're old and that sort of we do Facebook, and there are a group of horrible people, and sometimes you will get a thread of things that will just have me laughing, and it is exactly they are exactly the same as they were, even though I have not seen them in 40 years, these the repartee is very-very-very clever and funny and smart, but- AC: 51:07 There was Binghamton radio disc jockey or call and talk show host. IG: 51:17 I Think I interviewed somebody who [crosstalk] AC: 51:20 For months, a couple of students, whom we will not name, would call him up with funny accents and engage him in the most ludicrous conversation. NC: 51:34 I have a magic act, and I cannot get hired any man in Binghamton. [laughter] [inaudible] the tip of my tongue, but I want to say I cannot remember the name of the show. AC: 51:48 Okay. NC: 51:50 Speak for yourself. I think that is what. It was cool. Speak for yourself. Ultimately, they caught us. NC: 51:56 So what happened? [crosstalk] NC: 51:59 They just hanging their phone calls. But it was truly hilarious. IG: 52:05 So how did, how did the talk show host feel these answers? AC: 52:12 He was blindsided. He was taking this seriously. NC: 52:16 And then other people would call in to respond. But the people there were so really-really funny and clever in ways and outrageous, and it made it a lot of fun. AC: 52:34 A highlight of my four years there was when the Aunt Jemima Pancakes House, Pancake House opened down the highway, NC: 52:42 Right across the from campus [crosstalk] AC: 52:49 Um, for their opening month or three months- NC: 52:52 Was not that long. IG: 52:53 [inaudible] on site? AC: 52:53 Yes. NC: 52:53 But then there was the great- there were a lot of along Vestal Highway. I do not know if it is still called vessel highway. There was a number of steak houses. And then there was the weekend of the great steak stealing contest. Many different, many different students worked in kitchens or waiters, and the idea was, who could steal the best, the most steak. It was relatively harmless, stealing steaks from the restaurant that underpaid you. IG: 52:53 But what kind of music were you listening to at the time? Do you remember? AC: 52:53 Folk. AC: 52:53 I do not know what it was. It was all you could eat for dollar 25 right across the highway from a campus with a bad meal plan, so we drove them crazy. I mean, waitresses are crying and quitting. I mean, we come in and say, I would like two large glasses of fresh orange juice and eight orders of bacon, please. NC: 53:01 In the beginning, was folk, but, but by the time it was I was really heavy stones. And you know, the more druggy we became, the more less folky we became. AC: 54:09 No drugs in my early years. NC: 54:11 There were no drugs and, well, there were drugs in my early years, but I did not have the good sense to use them. Ultimately, I and some of these things stay with you for the rest of your life. And here we are, of course, more than a half a century later. And- IG: 54:27 So how different were these, were this experience of theater, of Guarneri String Quartet, from your family upbringing? Was this a different world, or was this a continuation- NC: 54:40 Totally different. AC: 54:42 Oh, yeah, this was getting cultured, that you go to college to get cultured. NC: 54:46 My family was half Spanish, and so what we, if we-we would go see flamenco dancing, sometimes in Carmen and Maya, but once I was sent to the Metropolitan Opera. And I thought, kill me now, but now, anytime I can go, I am so thrilled, and I get to go quite often. I did get to Broadway plays when I was a kid because they were affordable, unlike now, if there was a blizzard in New York, my mother would say, "Quick, get on the subway, go up and get tickets," and there would be cancelation So, but they were cheap. They were truly cheap, not now anyway. But no, this was all new. It was funny. I grew up in the village, and I was walking out of my school singing, "Oh, Mary, we crown thee with blossoms today." Bob Dylan was probably across the street singing, but I never saw him. I was doing something other than, you know, I did not well. I hung around the streets. And very interesting. IG: 55:51 You were also young. NC: 55:52 Yes, but-but we were also out all the time and [crosstalk] AC: 55:56 A lot of movies. This was in the day before there were VCRs or DVDs or anything. And so- NC: 56:04 That is right, movies. AC: 56:07 And it was a- the convocations committee showed some movies, but in the private or student clubs, as a fundraising event, would rent, uh- NC: 56:22 I do not know about that, Mondo Connie. I remember going to the movies in Binghamton. It was cheap. Movies were cheap. AC: 56:29 But like, we would rent a movie, you get it in reels of 16-millimeter film from Janus, and you charge 50 cents admission, and you would show an Ingrid Bergman, Ingmar Bergman, or some of the European you know, high class post World War Two movies. NC: 56:53 For lots of us- AC: 56:55 Because there was almost always a movie somebody was showing on the weekend. NC: 56:59 For all of our friends, even, who are my friends now, none of their parents went to college. None of them did such cultural things. We learned it in college. We had- it was a lot of fun. IG: 57:13 So tell me about you know, just give me kind of a general kind of trajectory of your lives after you graduated, you went to Bank, Street School, you at some point- NC: 57:27 I went to Bank, married, I became a teacher, and he ultimately became a teacher. He was still avoiding the draft. AC: 57:42 I spent several years of avoiding the draft. I went to graduate school in Florida. NC: 57:48 They would not let him into Peace Corps. AC: 57:50 [crosstalk] the draft. I could not get into the Peace Corps because of my left-wing background. This was the very earliest years of the Peace Corps. Kennedy was president, Sergeant Shriver was head of the Peace Corps, and they were very nervous about hiring communists. I was not a communist. IG: 58:09 But you were, I mean, [crosstalk]. How did they know that you were a communist? AC: 58:13 The FBI was- they really did background checks on every Peace Corps applicant. I mean, they were interviewing my neighbors in Brooklyn, my parents, neighbors in Brooklyn. NC: 58:25 From where you moved out when you were two or something even. AC: 58:29 So, but anyway, the Peace Corps would not have me, but they got me into graduate school in Florida, after which I got a teaching job, which was defer draft deferrable. And I also married somebody which was also draft deferrable, somebody not Nancy. And I taught there for three years. NC: 58:51 Then-then, she went to graduate school in the city, and so you moved to the city, and I was already teaching in the city, and this was in the late (19)60s, and there was this enormous teachers strike. Albert Shanker, I do not remember these names, and it was a huge-huge strike. And they were, I am making the numbers up here, but something like 35,000 striking teachers and 100 scabs-scabs. It was political at that time. At this time, I was saying it was it was it probably incorrect position, but days it seemed like the correct position. And there were meetings and I- NC: 59:32 Teachers teaching for the community. NC: 59:32 Teachers teaching for the community. IG: 59:36 Tell us, what are scabs for the purpose of this? AC: 59:40 Scabs are teachers who cross the picket line to go into work NC: 59:44 Scab, you know, and I had to walk past my coworkers who would spit on me as I walked into my school in East Harlem, which I had to open with a crowbar to get the chains off the door because the schools had been locked and we slept there in. In sleeping bags, but, and there were people who to this day, if I said they would not speak to me, but I do not care. AC: 1:00:09 And I was teaching at the time in Brooklyn and Sheepshead Bay High School, which had probably 200 faculty and six scabs. And it was unpleasant. AC: 1:00:09 It was unpleasant. Yes. IG: 1:00:21 So how did you- NC: 1:00:24 There were meetings for the people who were the teachers, and since the only 100 and all city. IG: 1:00:30 Right. NC: 1:00:31 We-we met, and I do not know. AC: 1:00:35 And we had mutual friends all from Harpur. NC: 1:00:38 Over the years, we had been at parties at the same time. AC: 1:00:42 But this time I was not married. NC: 1:00:43 This time he was not married, and I was, you know, loose ends, and they kept buying the same records, AC: 1:00:50 And she had an apartment with an air conditioner. NC: 1:00:54 And I had a dental plan, and that was it. I do not forget why I married you, because I thought you were handy. AC: 1:01:04 I was handy. I put down a new floor in your kitchen. NC: 1:01:07 Yeah, it was six tiles. AC: 1:01:08 The kitchen was so small that it took nine tiles. NC: 1:01:13 But then you never did it again. IG: 1:01:17 So how did you-you know, and how did you end up in this beautiful apartment? And from being, from being in that small space with six tiles to- NC: 1:01:28 Arthur, he was very successful, but he did. AC: 1:01:34 After my second-year teaching, and Sheepshead Bay, I quit teaching. NC: 1:01:40 That is when we got married. NC: 1:01:42 She might have heard. Do you know the Gale research company? AC: 1:01:42 And that is when we got married. I was able to quit teaching, because I by that time, I was 26 and not draftable. And we got married, and I looked for jobs. I got jobs writing- IG: 1:01:59 Yes. AC: 1:02:00 I worked for writing advertisements to librarians for the- their various series, The Encyclopedia of Associations, contemporary authors. IG: 1:02:11 Of course, I know, I know that series very well. AC: 1:02:14 Okay, well, I had nothing to do with the series except selling it. They had an office in New York where we wrote junk mail, catalogs and brochures and mailings to librarians to get them to buy Gale products. IG: 1:02:30 I remember the hard copy version of Gale, the contemporary authors, the various kinds of- AC: 1:02:37 I only knew the hard copy version. NC: 1:02:39 I am going to walk away [crosstalk] AC: 1:02:46 That was a good job, because I was in a two-person office, and I learned everything from my boss, not just in writing the copy, but in cutting out the proof, the-the print. Prints and pasting them down on the mechanicals and wrapping the boards and taking them to the post office to send to the printer. And I learned the whole direct mail industry. IG: 1:03:14 Did you interact with the authors at all, or editors? AC: 1:03:18 No, the editor's slides- most of what Gail was selling were so called scholarly reprints of Victor of out of print, and therefore public domain, Victorian studies of folklore and stuff like that. It was really happened to be the interest of the guy who owned the company. IG: 1:03:41 But I remember, you know, I remember 20th century Russian authors in that series, and contemporary author, I remember, I remember using that encyclopedia myself for, you know, my-my studies. AC: 1:03:58 Well, do you know better than I. IG: 1:04:00 My Russian literature, yeah. AC: 1:04:02 And by that time we had a baby, and I was making very little money, but my boss at Gale connected me to his friend at an advertising agency called R. L. Polk, and they hired me just a few blocks away, and suddenly I was making much more money, and I became a direct mail advertising creator, creative director, writer, copywriter, mostly for magazines and books and book clubs and also insurance companies and fundraisers, and I did that for them, for well, there was [crosstalk] back and forth, few jobs in here and there, but I ultimately left that to go freelance and. From 1986 until now. Well, I am now retired, but I was self-employed as a direct mail freelance writer and designer, and that that is [crosstalk] I bought this apartment. IG: 1:05:22 And you? NC: 1:05:24 I taught for a couple of years. Had baby. Always thought I would go right back to work, as my mother did. She went back to work before I was two, but then I realized do not want to do that. I was very-very different from women my age. They all wanted to fulfill themselves and go to work and-and they needed the money, but we were able to pare back our lives in a way that I did not go back to work. I stayed home with Michael, and then I had a second child a number of years later, but I did not go back to work till Eddie was 29 I did not be but I volunteered all the time. What did I do? I-I volunteered, doing two things, playing the guitar in nursery schools, music with little kids, because I am pretty good at that. But I also learned the used book business, and first, as a volunteer, sold books for a nonprofit called the Hudson Guild on north side in Chelsea, they would have a book fair every year, and I would work on that, and ultimately run that. And then they decided not to do that anymore, and I began working for a group called Housing Works. And Housing Works is a pretty big aids homeless group, but they have a bookstore in on Crosby Street in Soho, and I worked there for 13 years, selling rare books online and in the store. IG: 1:06:57 As a volunteer? NC: 1:06:58 No-no employee. And I still, I was there Monday. I still do that. I like a lot. IG: 1:07:07 That is nice. NC: 1:07:08 So I am fun, and I know a lot about books. And it is, you know, this weekend is- AC: 1:07:14 Yes, the Park Avenue - NC: 1:07:15 -is the biggest. IG: 1:07:17 Armory? AC: 1:07:18 Yeah. IG: 1:07:19 Big wood. NC: 1:07:19 Big book fair. IG: 1:07:21 Book fair. Oh. AC: 1:07:21 This is the classiest, largest book fair anywhere. IG: 1:07:25 Rare books. NC: 1:07:26 Yes, this will happen. You know what they call elephant folios of order by Princeton [crosstalk] AC: 1:07:32 You can get in for $25. NC: 1:07:35 I do not- is it that I did not, I am not going. I cannot walk, so I am done with that for the moment. IG: 1:07:41 Okay, well, you know, I think that maybe you know the concluding questions are that I usually ask at the conclusion of the interview is, what lessons, what life lessons did you learn that you think would help current students at Binghamton University, or, you know, future, future students that are listening to these tapes. What really got you through the- NC: 1:08:15 Trends. But I cannot imagine it so large now it is just one of our nieces went there. It is huge. It is just, I have not been back in a number of years. I went to a few reunions, but it is really far, really far, and I had a fabulous time. AC: 1:08:35 Not as far as it used to be. NC: 1:08:36 No. AC: 1:08:37 When I started going there, it was seven hours to drive there from New York City, because there was a route 17 ended in about in Monticello, in the Catskills. We're living somewhere. And from-from there to Binghamton was a narrow, winding two lane road in you would invariably be stuck behind a milk truck going uphill and with no passing possibilities. And it took seven hours to drive from New York to Binghamton. Now it takes three. IG: 1:09:10 That is terrible. NC: 1:09:11 It was five and a half the first time my parents took me there. IG: 1:09:14 As it is now, three and a half hours is pretty exhausting. NC: 1:09:17 Yeah. It got better when we could go through Pennsylvania. AC: 1:09:20 The fastest way still, is through Scranton. [crosstalk] NC: 1:09:24 And that was also very scenic, but, so I do not it was just friends that that have meant everything to me, and here I am still. I mean, we have a house on [inaudible] because my college roommate has a house one walk away from me. We still, yeah, we're friends forever. We have a number of couples who are still married in the time when so many people are not still married. Okay. We're married 49 years. Yeah. A tip for you. You always had your marriage on, but we- what was a lot of fun in early years after college was that everybody came back to New York to see their parents, and they would come see us now, their parents were all dead, so we do not see them so much they stay in California. AC: 1:10:22 Being a Harpurites, Harpur graduate who lived in Manhattan, you would get a lot of company from other Harpurites who were coming to the city to visit for Christmas week or whatever. IG: 1:10:35 So for you, what do you have any message to convey to the future. AC: 1:10:43 I guess be cynical, I guess is my most important point. Be questioning. Be negative. NC: 1:10:53 I am nothing like that. AC: 1:10:57 Do not believe anything they tell you. IG: 1:10:59 So it is a good lesson. Any concluding remarks. NC: 1:11:10 It was very pretty. There was the country. It is not so much anymore. I mean, I have seen it. They used to be, could just walk up behind the dorms. AC: 1:11:17 We had a tree house. I mean, one of the reasons. One of the reasons they thought I was a bad example was a couple of friends and I just walking. There was probably buildings there by now. Keep going up the hill, uphill from the campus, and you were in the woods. And it was, it was complete woods. I mean, you could not see anything in any direction, and we built a tree house and would go there and sit around. We never smoked anything there, maybe not in the early years. IG: 1:11:52 Why do you think that you have the reputation of being inspiring person? Do you- NC: 1:12:02 [crosstalk] Zany. AC: 1:12:05 Yeah, there was a lot of zaniness involved. And this was also the age of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. And for example, in my freshman year, living in Hinman dormitory on the second floor, I collected 10 cents from every kid on the floor every month, and bought comic books and bought and so that there would be about eight there were three toilet stalls in the bathroom, and each in each toilet stall, I had about eight comic books on a string tied in. And this was, one was adventureland, one was fantasy, yeah, and one was and every month I put in 8-24, fresh comic books. That is just an example. IG: 1:12:05 Oh, Zany. IG: 1:12:55 [crosstalk] material, yeah, yeah, but that is kind of an inventive idea. NC: 1:12:58 It is funny. I did not know you did that. I did that too when I was a dorm counselor, but it was not comic books. It was all girls, yeah, girls dorms. And I did that. I did that too. I must see it. It was, it was a very great time for me those four years, and I did learn things, despite the fact I am so sorry that I did not learn that I should have majored in art history. I did not discover Art History till maybe the first semester of my junior year, and I thought I died and gone to heaven, but in those days, you did. Nobody stayed in college more than four years. You knew you went for four years, and nobody had the money for the extra year, so you could not make all your requirements if you did that. But-but I-I would always like history, but art history was even better, because it was everything. It was history and sociology and philosophy and politics, and- IG: 1:14:05 It had, from what I know, it had a tremendous Art History and Art Department. NC: 1:14:11 It did, but I never had Lindsay. I well, I did a little bit, but there was a guy who was in art. I wish I could think of his name. He was a curator at the Morgan. IG: 1:14:26 I know him. Wolfley. NC: 1:14:29 That is it. I have gone on tour there with him. IG: 1:14:33 I bought tours with him too. NC: 1:14:40 But there was a lot of- I wish. I wished that I had known about art history, but just it was something, and I wish they had not made me take Bio, Sci or geology, although, in fact, Geology has, even though I got a D. Shut up, it stood me in good stead. I still know a little bit about what I am looking at when I am out in the world. But I wish I could have taken it a little more cultured. I would have been better off had majored in art history. AC: 1:15:11 I would like to learn something about Charles Eldred, who was he was a senior when I was a freshman, and the artist, correct. I will find out. And he died, yes, young, and I do not know how, although he smoked [inaudible] nonstop. NC: 1:15:38 He had a wife. His wife, wife's name [inaudible] and his son's name is Charles, and Chuck is-is an architect, because I once Googled Charles Eldred and I have got Chuck. AC: 1:15:47 There is a museum in Binghamton called the Roberson gallery. They had a show there. In fact, we have a poster of it in the bathroom. [crosstalk] And he was an extremely aside from being a talented artist, he was zany and crazy and wonderful. I mean, he was, he was built, he built an ornithopter. IG: 1:16:11 What is that? AC: 1:16:18 If you imagine a something Leonardo da Vinci, a helicopter built by Leonardo da Vinci out of wood with thick wings, that flap. I mean, it did not work, but it was a built it out of wood. Months building an ornithopter, and with a very good sense of humor. IG: 1:16:40 He actually built it, yeah, did it work? AC: 1:16:43 No, he did not. I mean, he never tried to, never took it on the roof and tried to fly. No, it would definitely not work. it was a joke. And Lindsay, after he graduated, Lindsay hired him to stay on, to teach art. And there is a whole lot of Harpur alumni who studied art, from-from Doc, from Professor Eldred. AC: 1:17:13 But he was an outstanding considering an unknown artist, he was totally unknown in the world of art, and we great. NC: 1:17:13 And who have, we have a number of friends who have an Eldred or two in their house. We have more than an Eldred or two. NC: 1:17:31 We think he is good. AC: 1:17:34 That concludes our meeting for today. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Arthur Cooper and Nancy Cooper Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in publishing; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in the New York City area Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cooper, Arthur ; Cooper, Nancy ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Arthur Cooper is a writer, self-employed. Art started out working for Gale publishing, but he made his name as a direct mail writer. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Art and Nancy Cooper.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-09 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 77:38 minutes