145 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/92bb28272932ead5dd449c523159ebf3.mp3 86a679d63ff15addb34aab0c12acd3b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry S. Flax Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Henry Flax, a native of Brooklyn raised in Queens, began his academic journey at Harper College, where he studied history and developed a lasting interest in art history. He was actively involved in student government and campus life, even organizing transportation services for fellow students during holidays. He went on to earn a master’s degree in Student Affairs Administration and later an EdD from Teachers College, Columbia University. Dr. Flax built a distinguished career in higher education, holding leadership roles across several institutions, including LaGuardia Community College, NYU, SUNY Downstate Medical Center, and Hunter College (CUNY). His work has spanned student affairs, enrollment management, and institutional operations, with a focus on client service, quality control, and cost management. He also served as a sector head for the Health Science Centers within the SUNY University Faculty Senate and currently contributes as a parliamentarian for the Senate, reflecting his longstanding commitment to academic governance and student development. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Brooklyn; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Henry S. Flax Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 17 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay. So, this is, um, Wednesday, October 17, 2018, and I am here, Irene Gashurov, is here with Dr. Henry Flax. So, Dr. Flax, perhaps you could tell us where you [inaudible] HF: 00:28 I was- IG: 00:29 First of all, tell us where we are. HF: 00:31 Okay. We are in Binghamton, New York, being recorded at the DoubleTree Hilton. Again, my name is Henry Flax. I was born in Brooklyn, but grew up in Queens, New York, the Bellrose section. After attending Martin Van Buren High School, I enrolled at Harpur College, SUNY Binghamton. IG: 00:55 Okay, we are getting ahead of ourselves. So, who were your parents? Who- what did they do? HF: 01:05 My father was an air traffic controller and rose to be Deputy Chief at LaGuardia tower, as well as working at John F. Kennedy Airport and other airports prior to that. My mother was the first in her family to earn a master's degree from Columbia University, but during most of my life was a housewife and mother. IG: 01:35 So did your father go to college? Was he- HF: 01:39 He did. He was a graduate of City College. IG: 01:41 I see, I see. So-so, probably, what were the expectations of you? Were you the only child? Or did you know- HF: 01:52 No, I am the third of three sons. My oldest brother went to what is now City University, first to City College, then to Baruch. My middle brother started at Columbia as an undergraduate and did graduate work at both CUNY and Cal at Berkeley. And I began at Harpur College and went to Columbia for my master's and doctorate. IG: 02:19 In- at Teachers College? HF: 02:24 Yes. IG: 02:25 So, what-what were some of the reasons that you went to Harpur College? HF: 02:36 I was a relatively young high school graduate, having skipped a grade in junior high school, and I thought it would be good for my emotional development to get away from home. Harpur seemed to offer a small enough campus environment that I would not be lost, but a very high-quality academic reputation, which attracted me. I had looked at other SUNY schools, and it seemed to be the right mix of academic rigor and small college environment. IG: 03:15 And just remind us what was the year that you entered Harpur? HF: 03:23 Started with the incoming class fall, 1967. IG: 03:29 1967 so what were, what was the reputation of Harpur in (19)67? HF: 03:40 Very strong academic quality. The college billed itself as the quote public Swarthmore to incoming students. I cannot remember whether that was part of the admissions campaign literature, but that was certainly what it was known as- IG: 04:00 Really? So, just remind us what the reputation of Swarthmore was at the time. I mean, it is a very good school, but that is all I know of it. HF: 04:14 High-quality liberal arts, small private college on the main line outside Philadelphia. IG: 04:23 Thank you. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of, I mean, you are a city kid come to, you know, the boondocks in the middle of nowhere. So, what-what-what were some of the impressions that [inaudible] Harpur had? HF: 04:39 I, uh, it did have the small college feel at the time; there were only two completed residential colleges. Dickinson and Newing. Hinman had just opened two residence halls, and that was it for. For on-campus housing, it was very easy to get to know almost everyone in the collegiate setting. I did live on campus, so had very little interaction with the town that came later through (19)68 from probably 1968 to 1970 when there were peace marches that went through Binghamton and Johnson City, and you really got to see the difference between, quote, town and gown at that time, it certainly was a different experience than living in New York City, but I focused very strongly on my coursework in the fall, and so that was my primary goal, maintaining grades and getting used to the academic rigor of college. IG: 05:57 So, did you have a sense of what you know you would like to learn here? Did you have a career in mind? Or do you have, did you have a subject that you wanted to pursue or? HF: 06:10 When I entered, I planned to major in history, which, at the time, you majored in social sciences, there probably were not enough courses to be strictly a history major, and the goal would have been to be a history teacher in high school. IG: 06:29 So, you said that the differences between town and gown were striking. Did this- did this include the student community? Did you feel that there were differences in world views approaches between the city kids and from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York? HF: 06:58 Certainly, the students from downstate metropolitan area, Long Island, Westchester, and New York City tended to be more cynical. Many of them had been accepted to Ivy League schools or the quote, private Swarthmore. But 1967 was pre federal financial aid, and so many of them could not afford those schools, and Harpur was their second or their safe school, as it were, so there was a disjointed approach to learning, where many of the downstate students felt they should be, somewhere even more rigorous than Harpur was at the time, and the upstate students and some of us from downstate also felt we were glad to be there, IG: 07:58 But I mean in terms of interacting with these students. Did you make friends from the upstate population, or were your friends mostly like yourself, city kids? HF: 08:12 No, when I arrived, I was one of 32 students who came from Van Buren High School. We were a huge contingent. We quickly grew apart over our first and second semesters, and I made friends with people from Rochester, a man who became my roommate for two more years, and then people from towns as small as Montour Falls. So, it was a very diverse experience, a good learning experience about people who came from other backgrounds in upstate New York and small towns way out on Long Island, Suffolk County. IG: 08:53 So, what did they make of you? I mean, you collectively from Van Buren, and what did you collectively Van Buren make of them? I mean in generalities, and we know that there are individuals and exceptions, but just impressions. HF: 09:16 I think the Van Buren people, because we sat on the city line. We all lived within New York City Limits, but it was a very suburban part of Queens, so we were already bifurcated in terms of our thinking. Kids from Brooklyn did not think we were city people, and people from Nassau and Suffolk only thought we were city people. So, it was an interesting- IG: 09:41 That is so true. I remember. HF: 09:43 It was sort of an interesting approach, a little schizophrenic for us. IG: 09:50 Yes, and that is so true that I am glad that you reminded me, because that is that really was the thing. Um, so-so, could you just describe a little bit of what the campus looked like at the time? HF: 10:13 The overwhelming aspect was mud. There was a tremendous amount of construction going on. So, the Dickinson area, the- what I guess is now the peace quad, was pretty much finished, but Hinman was still being built. Science buildings were being built. The fine arts building was being expanded. The museum was being created. So, as I say, it was a lot of mud. [laughs] IG: 10:49 And where were your classes held? HF: 10:53 Freshman Litton camp was actually held in seminar rooms in Chenango Hall. They cleared the first floor, one of the first-floor wings of residence rooms, and made them into seminar rooms in an attempt to break down the large lecture class. IG: 11:13 Do you mind if we pause because- Okay, we are back with Dr. Flax. So, you were telling us about the campus and what it looked like when you when you arrived, and your first impressions. How do you feel that it has, I mean, it has changed tremendously, but what are some of the notable changes that you are most struck by when you see Binghamton campus now? HF: 11:50 Now, I had not been back on campus for many-many years and was actually here last April to attend a performance at Tri Cities Opera with another alum who maintained a much closer connection to Binghamton, both the city and the campus, than I had over the years. We had time before the performance and drove onto campus, and the most striking thing to me was the loss of Newing College, the fact that I had lived for two years in Chenango Hall and then two years in Delaware Hall. And what is on the footprint of Delaware Hall is a much, much larger building. I think all the names have now been changed to Old O'Connor or Old Johnson, and now what had been Newing College names are all old Dickinson College names seems like a lack of creativity to me, and one of the highlights of my time as a student was the unbelievable creativity on the campus. So, I am a little disappointed in that. IG: 13:09 Tell us about that. Tell us about the unbelievable creativity on campus. HF: 13:17 It was a group of very strong faculty, young faculty in general, who had come from other places but were determined to create an academic community, and as I say, very strong students who were looking for small college liberal arts environment. I think Binghamton, at that point, had a very strong reputation in the humanities, a little less so in the social sciences. If you were interested in the sciences, you generally went to Stony Brook. If you were looking at the four university centers, Albany was sort of late to the game and was still considered a teacher's college that was just becoming a university center, and Buffalo was very large and in the process of moving from downtown out to Amherst. So very different experience. But students really took control of their lives, their social activities, a very strong student government, a strong radio station. I became involved in something called the student center board, which ran the student activities on campus, which were largely student-run rather than staff-run. IG: 14:49 So how did you get involved in the student board, and what-what role did you have? HF: 14:54 I had actually started as a dorm rep. To Student Government, and then in (19)68, as things got crazy all over higher ed in this country, thought I had a better niche with the student activities area. What initially got me interested was that the student center board ran buses to all the metropolitan areas at holiday time. So, for Thanksgiving or for Christmas, you did not have to come into Downtown Binghamton to take a Greyhound or a Trailways bus. The buses were brought on campus, and I worked very closely with other students to organize buses that made sense in terms of filling them to capacity and then having them stop in particular areas. So if you lived in Yonkers and I lived in Queens, there might have been enough people from Yonkers and Queens to put together a bus that went to the raceway into Jamaica, or maybe there were enough from Nassau and Queens that went to Jamaica and Roosevelt field, but we ran full buses, and we made considerable amount of money. IG: 16:15 So, it was kind of similar to what your father was doing, but on the ground, right HF: 16:19 [laughs] In a way, I suppose, [laughter] he brought them in, I sent them out. [laughter] IG: 16:32 So, you know, so you were involved in this. So, was it part of your stipend? Was it an internship or work study program, or something that you- HF: 16:45 There were no internships at that time. I did it as a volunteer. You would get a free bus. If you were a bus captain, you got a free ride. That was the incentive. IG: 16:55 I see, I see. HF: 16:56 And you just had to make sure that you loaded the right number of people and the right names on the bus collected their money, or that was done beforehand, actually. So, I started as a bus captain, became Chairman of the Transportation Committee, did a few other jobs, and then chaired the student center board, probably my senior year. IG: 17:16 In your senior year. And you mentioned (19)68 and (19)68 was such a time of ferment at American universities, but all over the world, you know, there were, it was a time of student rebellions and rethinking how and retain rethinking the world. And how did you experience 1968 politically at Harpur College? HF: 17:48 I think it was the beginning of a whole radicalization of the campus. You had, as I said, this sort of cynical, unhappy group on campus to begin with. But fall of (19)67 was very traditional. I remember thinking as I was driving up here today, what was my first, you know, week or month like. And I remember something as absurd now when you think back that our resident assistants or dorm leaders or whatever they were called at the time, and we were in men's dorms and women's dorms, so they organized a quote, unquote panty raid where, you know, freshmen men ran around screaming, Silk-silk," and hoping that some woman would throw her bra out. It was really juvenile, but very traditional, sort of early (19)60s campus culture. And then in (19)68 things sort of got blown away. People had friends at Columbia because a lot of us came from New York City. We knew people from our graduating classes who had enrolled there, and of course, that was a major upheaval, where the student strike and the takeover of Low Library really took East Coast students into where the Berkeley Free Speech Movement had been five years before- IG: 19:22 But that is on the Columbia campus. How did it resonate to Harpur? What was going on at Harpur in 1968? How were you informed by those you know, feelings and ideas of students from the East Coast? HF: 19:40 People started questioning authority. There were all sorts of curfew rules. Women had much stricter curfews than male students. If you had a woman in your room, you had to put a book in the door, privacy, all of those things. Things were really washed away in a time of ferment; the Dean of Students was, I guess, removed and became dean of the summer school. He was just thrust out because he was a very traditional figure who could only think in very traditional ways. So, there was a certain amount of upheaval among the administration with students, I think less so with faculty, but more questioning of curricula, student course, and teacher evaluation started to come in that was unheard of prior to (19)68, (19)69, and (19)70. IG: 20:45 But at a place like Harpur College, where you- did you feel that you had more of that, you were more, not on equal footing, but you had certainly more access to the faculty than you would have elsewhere, and somehow that broke the barriers down. And I- HF: 21:07 Some faculty were very receptive to the changes, I think, particularly again, in the humanities, little less so in the social sciences, the hard sciences tended to be the most conservative as they traditionally are. IG: 21:21 So, what kind of things you know, what kind of things were spoken of about the cultural climate, the change in cultural climate? HF: 21:32 Uh, ending-ending curfew, Hinman was, quote, unquote, the self-regulated dormitories. So, there were no curfew rules. Students were expected to enforce their own codes of behavior, which set a tone for the other campus, campus units that said, “Well, why not us? "You know, just because they are living in brand new housing, it is only typically open to upperclassmen. There are upperclassmen in Dickinson, there are upperclassmen in Newing, so it really threw everything on the table to be discussed in terms of how things were done--student activities. It is not just going to be a traditional dance, a social, or a mixer. Certainly, the influence of rock music had a major change the drug culture to a lesser degree. IG: 22:34 And where were you at all of this? Did you welcome these changes? Were you excited about them? HF: 22:42 I think in (19)68 at one point, there was a there used to be something called the Esplanade, which connected Dickinson and the Student Union. It was a little bridge, but that was sort of the focal point for student speakers, and people congregated around I remember feeling at one point in either (19)68 or (19)69 when everybody went across and sort of stormed the administration building. They were going to confront the powers that be. It was very frightening to me. I did not quite accept it or understand it. IG: 23:22 You were young. You were very young. HF: 23:26 I was young, but I was also very naive. I was young emotionally as well as you were younger than most freshmen, and it took me a while to sort of embrace that change. IG: 23:40 Yeah, I could see that. I mean, not of you, but I could see, actually, even of myself, you know, in such a circumstance. So, what were, you know, what were we have not spoken about your classes at all, and your interaction with your student, fellow students, your faculty, just tell us some highlights from really kind of mind-altering type of classes that you had with If faculty really left a big impression on you. HF: 24:25 Yes, there were some in English, but I think the greatest impact was in the art department and art history. John Connolly taught the survey course, 100 or 101, I cannot remember the number right now, and that I took in my sophomore year as an elective or to fill a humanities requirement. But that really excited me. And then there was a young instructor. Lawrence McGuinness, who was teaching architecture courses, really architectural history, and that really became my love. I was very sorry I either did not change majors or pursue architectural history on the graduate level. I think in some ways, I did very well academically. I really enjoyed the subject--remained a member of the Society of architectural historians to this day. IG: 25:28 What-what- HF: 25:29 It is purely avocational. IG: 25:31 What period especially interested you? What? HF: 25:36 Oh, it has changed over the years. IG: 25:37 It has changed over, but here, when you were at Harpur, what did you what did you get excited about? What-what- HF: 25:46 Probably the year 1200 was very exciting, because it was a move from Romanesque to Gothic, and it was an individual style that came out, something like the Bury St Edmunds crosses is a real epitomy of high year, 1200 style art, and you see it in architecture as well. But since then, I have developed a real fondness for Art Deco and Art Nouveau architecture. How did you view the IG: 26:24 How did you view the architecture? The- did you have slides? Or how did you see that in the classroom? HF: 26:33 All Slides and then papers had to be done outside. So, I think my first architecture paper was on the Philadelphia Museum of Art, Parkway Museum. So, I literally went to Philadelphia and spent a weekend photographing the exterior, the interior, and then writing up the paper. IG: 27:01 So-so-so architecture have a great impact. What, how did you how did you spend your free time? You did this student center. You were invested in your studies. How did you spend? How did you relax with your friends? HF: 27:22 Was also very involved in the governance of Newing College, working with the master of the college and with the student leadership there, that was very fulfilling. HF: 27:39 Had tried out probably junior and senior years, and I think certainly in terms of academics, we were interested in the whole ecology movement and actually got a faculty member hired to teach an ecology course through Newing College. IG: 27:40 Which year [inaudible] HF: 27:54 Ecology, of what kind of the environment? HF: 28:05 Environmental ecology, yeah. IG: 28:08 Um, and what got you interested in that? HF: 28:15 I think just conservation, and probably Rachel Carson's books. But there were other people who were interested, and we thought, well, you know, there is funding. Why don't we try to support the faculty line to, you know, put our money where our mouth is. IG: 28:33 And of course, during that time, there really was little notion of the environment, you know, you see, this was the era of polymers, of plastics and disposable culture and disposable things, right? So that is very interesting. What-what were some of the sort of, you know, political and social discussions that you would have with your student, with your fellow students, if- HF: 29:05 Politically, it was certainly about the escalation of the Vietnam War. And I guess the fact that Lyndon Johnson did not run for a second term of office, Eugene McCarthy was a very popular candidate on campus, the election of Richard Nixon, which was such a setback for most students. And, you know, starting in (19)68 and really, I would say, almost ending in May of 1970 with the deaths at Kent State. This was an almost unbelievable shock to students at Harpur that the police could come on a campus and shoot you. And this really brought things home. And I said, “To feel like there was a very traditional beginning to my college career,” this spike in radicalism, and then my senior year, almost a return. Clearly, a reformulated campus, things had changed, but a numbed campus frightened campus that, if it could happen there, could it happen here. IG: 30:27 That is, that is really that is really interesting, that is really interesting. So it was, it was Kent State. It was not, it was not, you know, lark, it was Kent State. Were there police aggression elsewhere at universities? HF: 30:46 Yes, Jackson, state in Mississippi, which was actually a sister school to Harpur, and I cannot remember what the relationship was, there was a man named Jack Sperling who had something to do with the two campuses, but there were deaths at Jackson State as well as Kent State. But I think again, Kent State, the deaths were white students. It was the National Guard being brought on campus, very similar to what happened at Columbia, when the New York City Police were called on campus, and students were dragged out of Low Library. IG: 31:28 So, but it is also interesting that you said that there was sort of, you know, this spike to radicalism, and then coming down, maybe, you know, understanding. But yet there was a spike. So, it was mind-changing, you know, it changed you in some way. HF: 31:44 Oh, absolutely. IG: 31:44 Yeah, absolutely, so-so, you know, after-after Harpur College, what happened to you? HF: 31:53 I thought I would go into architectural history, and I actually thought I would enroll in the program at Columbia. And one bit of bad advice I got was, and I do not know why, but that I was too good for the Columbia program, and the only place I should go was Harvard, and I was ready to go back to New York City at that point. And I did not get very good career counseling or advising, certainly not good academic advising. And I ended up just making the decision with-with one person on staff who said, "Well, you know, what do you do apart from history?" Because there are no jobs in history. So, I thought, well, I am very involved in Student Activities and student life on campus. There are clearly staff people here who do that. How do they get into it? So, I ended up enrolling in master's program at Columbia in Student Affairs Administration, and that got me back to New York City, where I wanted to be for personal reasons, and sort of kept me in a university environment, which I want. IG: 33:10 Right-right-right. So, what you arrived at Columbia in? HF: 33:17 Fall of (19)72. IG: 33:19 In fall of (19)72, in fall of (19)72. So-so you had, you know, you had, and so just give us a- you know- HF: 33:32 No, I am sorry, fall of (19)71. I graduated in (19)71 I finished my master's in spring of (19)72. IG: 33:39 So just give me a sense a career trajectory. So, you finished this master's from Teachers College and-and then what-what did you do? HF: 33:51 I ended up getting a job at Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, which is another unit of SUNY. IG: 33:57 Right. Yes, I know. HF: 33:58 And started as night manager in the student center, and then was promoted to Assistant Director for activities, and I also worked as head resident in one of the residence halls there, and then felt there was no upward mobility in that job, so moved on to associate director of the Student Union at the college at New Paltz, so another SUNY school, but that was very tough to be a young single person in a very small town. I remember going out one night because Main Street in New Paltz, at least at that time, was just loaded with college bars, and I thought, I do not want to sit in this apartment. I cannot ride another 30 miles on my bicycle tonight. I need a drink. And the next morning, I kept having student after student come into the Union and say, "Oh, we heard you were at McGuinness last night." So, I realized that was just not going to work for me. IG: 34:59 So, I imagine that you left. HF: 35:02 I left, and I became Director of Student Services at a college in New Jersey [crosstalk]. At that time, it was called Jersey City State College. It is now New Jersey City University in Jersey City. So, it gave me the opportunity to live in Manhattan and commute right out, which was nice, having a reverse commute and a much larger job than the one I had in New Paltz with significant budgetary and personnel responsibilities, which I wanted. IG: 35:34 So, you worked there for? HF: 35:37 I was in Jersey City for 11 years, and then I got a phone call from one of my former students who was working for a marketing firm in Manhattan, and she said, "We have an opening for a vice president at my company. Would you be interested in applying?" And I said, you know, I guess I laughed, and said, "I have absolutely no qualifications for that. I have never worked in business." And she said, "It is, it is just the same as what you do at the college. You just use different terms. It is customer service, not student service. You work with budgets; you work with personnel. This job would be Vice President for Administration of the company; you could certainly do all of those things." IG: 36:25 Wow. HF: 36:25 And I threw my hat in the ring and subsequently got the job. IG: 36:30 So what year was this? HF: 36:33 This was 1988. IG: 36:35 1988, and you were living where in? HF: 36:40 At that time, I was living in Greenwich Village, so it was very nice. It allowed me to sell my car immediately and not deal with alternate side of the street parking. I could walk to work on a good day, but on a very short subway ride, and I could finally get decent meals at lunch instead of a college cafeteria. IG: 37:03 Also, you know, it is always very interesting to me when an academic makes a change over to industry, working for private industry. So, what was that shift like? What skills did you bring? I mean, obviously, you know your administrative skills, and what were some of the differences that you found? HF: 37:31 I think the reason I was hired was to do staff training and provide a much better and deeper level of customer service for the firm's clients. What happened was I got caught up in account work and did less and less training and more and more major account supervision. The first year, it was all fascinating to me because it was all new. And then I realized by my second year that the only real criterion for success was, " What was your bottom line this quarter? How will you exceed it in the next quarter? And by the third year, I realized, if that was all there was, I was going to go crazy. And I-I thought about my life and who I was, and I thought what I liked about working in academia was a group that thought about other things besides the bottom line and allowed you to explore and self-explore and really go in different avenues and directions, even though you were doing basically administrative work. And so, after three years, I left and went to- IG: 38:49 That is an excellent way, you know, the thoughts are so resonant and so interesting. I am sorry- [laughter] HF: 39:00 But then I did return to higher education as director of Counseling and Student Services at New York University, which was the best of all at the time, because it was a walk to work. IG: 39:12 So, you measure the, you know, the value of an employer by how- HF: 39:20 Proximity to my home. IG: 39:21 Yeah, exactly. I understand. So, what were the years that you were in at NYU? HF: 39:30 1991 through 1997. IG: 39:33 Right. Could you also go to doctorate somewhere along the way? HF: 39:37 I had started my doctoral work when I was in Jersey City and then stopped out when I went to work in business, because it made no sense. But when I went back to NYU, I picked up the doctoral work again at Columbia. I had thought of transferring to NYU, but they had really arcane academic regulations. And although I worked very closely with the Academic Dean in the School of Education, his-his advice was, "We are not going to change our rules. You would do better to get your degree from Columbia. Take as many free courses here as they will let you with tuition remission." IG: 40:21 Right. Well, at least, at least they were truthful, right? HF: 40:23 He was, he was a wonderful advisor. And my biggest problems were with the registrar at Teachers College, but we worked through them, and I earned my degree subsequently. IG: 40:36 And so, what did you specialize in? What did you what was your focus? The focus of your dissertation. What was it on? HF: 40:44 I was looking at community college transfer counselors and their role in moving students from community colleges into four-year institutions. IG: 40:55 That is very relevant to us. HF: 40:59 So, I had again talked to this academic dean at NYU, and he said, " You know, everybody looks at college presidents, everybody looks at students. Nobody ever looks at the people who do the work in the middle. And he said, I think if you worked on a subject like this, you would be working with four-year schools, you would be working with two-year schools, you would be working with staff members. I think it would be a very rich study. And so, it was actually partially quantitative, but largely qualitative. And I think it was a very rich study, and a lot came out in terms of the differences between transfer advising and transfer counseling. And the success that these individuals had moving students who, in many cases, had very low self-esteem into schools like NYU that they never thought they could ever approach, much less enroll in. IG: 42:00 Right-right. So, what is the, what is the role of the advisor who is helping such a student? HF: 42:09 I think they looked at their jobs as the information dissemination piece, was the transfer, advising the mechanics, how to do it, what courses to take that would transfer based on their major requirements, their academic interests, the counseling piece was for them, the more exciting piece of getting students with generally low self-esteem or very limited vision of their opportunities in the world. To say, “Yes, I can do this, even though my family has told me a woman should only be a secretary and that a college education is a waste," I was able to tell this woman, "No, you are so bright and you are so motivated, you can, you can do more than be someone's assistant." IG: 43:11 So-so, where did you have an opportunity that is really wonderful. So, where did you have an opportunity to implement- HF: 43:19 The stuff? IG: 43:20 The study. HF: 43:24 NYU has a large program called the Community College Transfer Opportunity Program, and that I used their feeder schools for my qualitative interviews, as well as some other campuses, but it was very interesting to see, and I think that model has been adopted around the nation now. IG: 43:49 Oh, fantastic. S HF: 43:52 Oh, it has been, it was very-very productive and very rewarding. I subsequently could not move up at NYU with the doctorate, and I did want a deanship. So interestingly enough, I ended up going back to downstate in 1998 as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. IG: 44:12 Interesting. HF: 44:14 So handled admissions, financial aid, the registrar, international student advising, and disabled student advising. IG: 44:23 Fantastic. That is, that is fantastic. And I know that downstate produces, somebody told me the most number of medical graduates in the country. Is that true? HF: 44:36 Not sure, in the country, certainly in New York state. HF: 44:37 New York State, certainly, New York State. HF: 44:40 Absolutely New York State. It is the largest graduating class. IG: 44:44 And so and so. How long were you there? HF: 44:47 I stayed from (19)98 to 2004. And then I became associate dean for Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College, which is part of CUNY. IG: 45:02 With such an innovative community college, it is really kind of the flagship of all community colleges. So, what role did you have to make it that way? HF: 45:13 The major thing I did was the college had made a decision that, instead of having siloed admissions, financial aid, registrar, and advising offices, they would create an Enrollment Services Center. So, I came on board at the beginning of the construction. I had no input in the original design, but my role was, really, how do you meld four very disparate offices that have been treated very disparately, quite frankly, by the administration, into one harmonious team. And we did some very innovative personnel changes and programs to make it happen, and opened a beautiful, 25,000 square foot facility with a combination of generalists and specialists to serve students. We put in an electronic database so that students did not have to randomly be called by mistake or stand in line, they were able to sit in a very comfortable lounge setting similar to what we were sitting in right now, and then have their names called over a loud speaker when it was their turn, so they could be doing other things while waiting. But we tried with the electronic database, we were able to assess what we were doing and how we were doing it. So initially we realized we were doing some very basic financial aid work for students that if we built a computer lab and had people serving as, I guess, mentors, they could sit at a computer and learn to do it themselves, filling out FAFSAs, updating forms. And so, we took a lot of that traffic out of the Enrollment Services Center by building an adjacent computer lab, and at check-in, finding out, okay, you need to see the registrar. This is a complex issue. You need a specialist. You need to drop and add a course. You can do that with a generalist. You have a financial aid inquiry that can go to the computer lab. Someone will teach you how to do that. And so, it helped empower students to take care of their own enrollment services business, and it-it provided better service and avoided staff burnout from having to answer the same repetitive questions, [crosstalk] literally-literally. IG: 47:51 I am sure. And since so much of the population at LaGuardia are immigrants, and you know, first generation, they need that extra hand-holding when approaching bureaucracy of any kind. I think it is- HF: 48:08 Absolutely. IG: 48:09 -fear-inspiring so. HF: 48:13 And then finally, I-I did some work at Hunter on a biotechnology project. IG: 48:19 Wow. HF: 48:19 And then returned to SUNY, downstate, in my final act as the coordinator for the residency program in the Department of Pathology. And that got me back on the University Faculty Senate, which brings me to Binghamton today. I am no longer a senator, since I retired at the end of 2016, but this past June, I was selected to be the next parliamentarian for the body starting in June of 2019. IG: 48:55 At downstate, or here? HF: 48:57 At SUNY wide. SUNY wide. IG: 48:59 SUNY, tremendous. So, tell us about this new role. So, a very big role. HF: 49:05 The parliamentarian advises the President of the University Faculty Senate. And you may know the most recent immediate past president, Pete Neffer, who was a geology faculty member at Binghamton, he served two terms as president of faculty senate statewide and parliamentarian guides the president, not only in terms of the rules and regulations of the meetings, in terms of the bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order, but as sort of a senior advisor to the body the parliamentarian particularly helps with the Governance Committee and with the campuses any questions that come up about bylaws or procedures or confidential issues that they do not want to share on their own campuses, the parliamentarian serves in that role as well. IG: 50:02 So, you are it is almost as though you are an attorney, you know, but you are advising them about a different set of laws. HF: 50:09 Right. So, if someone asked me about Binghamton's bylaws, I would not be familiar with them. First thing I would have to do is send me a copy of your bylaws or point me to your website. So that I can see what the situation is. At Downstate Medical Center, I helped rewrite the bylaws, so I am far more familiar with my own former campus’s bylaws. IG: 50:33 So, what kind of issues do you resolve? What kind of issues come to your desk? HF: 50:39 Right now, well, I am I am in my quote, unquote training year or parliamentarian elect, there still is a parliamentarian, and she has done this job for seven years and is ready to step down. So right now I am shadowing her, but she has had some issues on campuses where people have come to her for consultation about differences between administrative leadership and faculty governance leadership, and how would she suggest they be solved, so she has had a hand in that, as well as when it has to escalate to a formal consultation or visitation procedure. Certainly, we both. I have been sitting on the Governance Committee for several years. Last year, we started trying to do what we thought was a minor update to the bylaws, and as we looked at them, we realized does not work anymore the way it is constructed, and so it has become a wholesale reorganization and rethinking of the bylaws. I think the role of the faculty senate president has grown tremendously since he or she became a member of the Board of Trustees. And so, they do as much, probably, as a trustee as they do as faculty senate president, which meant, okay, we need to expand the role of the vice president. That cannot just be something somebody does out of their pocket. That is a real position that has to do a lot of coverage for the President. So, what is the appropriate role the committee tangled with, okay, should the President be seen as a college president or university president, sort of being the outside face of the organization, and the Vice President taking on a provost role, sort of running the committees and the sectors. So, I think we have come up with a good first draft. It is actually going to be unveiled to the Senate Friday morning, so we will see how well it is received. But I think it is going to go through several iterations before the existing bylaws become some-some new set of bylaws. IG: 53:05 So, your meeting- what is the what is the group consist of you and- HF: 53:11 University Faculty Senate or the Governance Committee. The university faculty senate is represent-represent faculty and staff representation from all 29 state-operated campuses and system administration. So, there are a portion of the representation is apportioned by number of faculty and staff on campuses. So downstate has four senators because it has a very large professional staff, based on the hospital. Morrisville might have one senator, much smaller campus. Binghamton, I think, also has four as a university center, large faculty and professional staff, and they really deal with issues of governance system-wide, but the Senate is broken into what are known as sectors. So, the four University Centers comprise a sector, the five academic medical centers comprise a sector, and they meet during the plenaries to discuss issues that are really specific to those sectors. So, in 2011, when downstate was encouraged by then-Governor Patterson to purchase Long Island College Hospital. It not only brought down state to fiscal ruin but really endangered the entire system. It was a ridiculous decision, but, you know, people were not going to argue with the governor. That became a major focus of not only the academic health science sector, but issues for faculty senate at large, and because we had our President sitting as a trustee, there was a lot of interaction between the Senate, the sector, and the Board of Trustees. We were meeting with the Chair of the trustees’ academic health science sector, as the academic medical sector, because we were afraid they were not getting a full picture of what this meant to a campus. So, there was a lot of it was a good communications vehicle. IG: 55:40 I see. HF: 55:40 Things do not always percolate up through the Chancellery as they should, and it is very good to have faculty and professional staff who are on the ground, invested in their campuses, who are willing to do this volunteer service. IG: 55:57 So, let us connect it back to Harpur, and you know the, what is the do you- I mean, did you come from a liberal minded household? Because did you come from, you know, a household that that kind of prepared you for this type of thinking and outlook. I mean, because you are so sort of, you know, progressive and yet, and yet, you know, you have so much knowledge and struck knowledge of regulations and how the system works. And I mean, where-where did the-the first sort of seedlings for-for this type of mindset come from? HF: 56:52 Well, I think, you know, my parents were very bright and thoughtful people. My father tended to be more conservative than my mother, but I think probably the exposure through my temple youth group in high school started me on some sort of leadership roles, certainly at Harpur, being involved in Newing college governance and Student Government, campus wide, and student center board, sort of becoming the boy bureaucrat- IG: 57:27 Yeah-yeah. HF: 57:29 -that I became, [crosstalk] I think was very- IG: 57:32 bureaucrat for very kind of, you know, forward-looking causes. I mean, you know. HF: 57:40 Yeah, I am not sure where the progressive piece comes from. I think my grandmother, I know, is a suffragette, so maybe, maybe that and a couple of my aunts tended to be more probably progressive than my own immediate family. So maybe they were role models. IG: 57:59 Right. And probably living in New York and being in a student environment. Did you read the piece about the in the New York Times just a day ago--it was written by- I forget his name, a conservative professor, and he lamented how university administrators are far more left-leaning than even faculty. HF: 58:27 Now I missed that piece. I am still very involved in a lot of volunteer causes. So last week, I am a UUP delegate. So, I was at the UUP delegate assembly in Buffalo, and of course, this week, I am at the plenary. So, I stopped preparing for UUP and started preparing for these meetings. And in the middle, I am I serve as secretary of my co-op board. So, I had a meeting last night, so I think it was prep work to be done, and follow-up will be done on that, so. IG: 59:02 Do you, may I ask about your family life? Did you have a family? Did you- HF: 59:09 I have a partner. We have been together for 22 years, living together for 20 years. IG: 59:17 That is nice. That is very nice. Um, that is- HF: 59:23 He actually got me involved in UUP. IG: 59:25 Really? [inaudible] HF: 59:27 I was management confidential as an Associate Dean, so I could not be at the time, but when I came back into pathology, I was able to join the union at that point. IG: 59:41 You know, I do not know how you know comfortable, or how you know this is maybe not, and this is outside of the scope of this interview, but I would be very interested in-in the gay community at Harpur College. You know, during the time I am going to meet with somebody tomorrow who is going to talk about that. HF: 1:00:08 Well, let us say, in my freshman year, there was no gay community. IG: 1:00:13 Yeah. HF: 1:00:15 It just did not exist. Although interestingly, I guess, when I was running for student government, I remember speaking to some people in the basement of my dorm, and they- we should pause for a second. IG: 1:00:43 Okay, so we are back with Dr. Flax. HF: 1:00:48 Just recalling campaigning for student government meeting, Bill Jones and Arni Zane, who would later become very well-known modern dance dancers and subsequently choreographers. So that was probably my first exposure to anyone who was actually out in a very limited way in college. And then we had several committees on the student center board, and there was a young man with a lot of enthusiasm, Martin Levine, who became our dance committee chair and did a phenomenal job changing the whole culture of what dance was at Harpur and-and bringing it into the-the 1960s from where it had been in the 1950s he subsequently became a major gay activist in New York City, and unfortunately died during the AIDS crisis in the late (19)80s. I think the first gay student organization probably was established in my senior year, but I was not part of that at all. IG: 1:02:09 Right, yeah, when you, when you think, I mean, it is we, really, I mean, everyone, everyone, I think, every thinking individual has gone through worlds of change, anyone who has lived a life. HF: 1:02:32 I looked at the generation before me that lived through the Depression and World War Two, and this was certainly not as life-altering as those two experiences, but I think the campus upheaval in the (19)60s and the Vietnam War were a microcosm of change for our generation. IG: 1:02:56 I absolutely agree. I think maybe less violent with less bloodshed. But, you know, a huge, a huge change in outlook and thinking. I think we are running out of time, unfortunately, because I have- HF: 1:03:19 {crosstalk] a four o'clock bus. IG: 1:03:20 No, no, I have a four o'clock pickup. [inaudible] But-but are there any concluding thoughts that you have about, you know, the value of your Harpur College, the impact that it has had on your life? You know things like that any-any- HF: 1:03:41 I think it was a wonderful education for me, as much or probably more outside the classroom than in the classroom, in terms of my psychosocial development. I think it set a career path for me that when I left higher ed, went to the business world and then had to reevaluate. It convinced me that I probably made the right choice going into higher education. I might have done some things differently. Perhaps I would have started as a faculty member in architectural history and then, probably, I think, moved into administration one way or another. But I certainly do not have any regrets about attending Harpur when I did, with whom I did, I made some-some very good friends along the way. In fact, when I was hired at Downstate for the associate dean position. The woman who was the vice president at the time is someone whom I had admired very much when I worked on the student center board. She was a few years ahead of me, and it did not register with her until the end of our interview, when she asked, am I the Henry Flax attended Harpur College. Said, "Yes, I am," and I realized she had made a far greater impact on my life than I had made on hers, but we did work together very successfully for seven years. IG: 1:05:14 That is very nice. Well, thank you very much. HF: 1:05:22 Thank you for the opportunity to do this. IG: 1:05:24 It is a pleasure. It has really been a pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry S. Flax Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Flax, Henry S. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Henry Flax.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:27 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3bcab5d4c67ef94cf99c878ad8118575.mp3 ca9b8719713ef15f6d347d1606787be5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2da63901bf575d17c1f6a212af18aa7d.jpg eb73506bbae5cf3912d5e771970a2a86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lenore Ruth Greenberg Year of Graduation 1972 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including <span>Iron Mountain LLC.</span> She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. <span>Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working </span><span>at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn.&nbsp;</span> Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in library science; Harpur College – Alumni from Great Neck, Long Island; Harpur College – Alumni living in Malverne, Long Island; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Lenore Ruth Greenberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 18 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) LG: 00:02 So, my name is Lenore Greenberg. I am a 1972 graduate of Harpur College. I have been- I left Harpur and got a master's at SUNY Albany, (19)74 in library science, and I am now happily retired, we are sitting in Malvern having a discussion about my memories or recollections from the (19)60s, and I hope other things too, IG: 00:30 Very good. So where- just tell us a little bit about where you grew up, what your parents did, what your upbringing was like. LG: 00:40 Okay, I grew up on Long Island in Great Neck. My father was an account executive, and my mom was a quote and quote, homemaker. When I was in seventh grade, she started again, working outside the house, starting with the with the Girl Scouts. And I had two siblings. We lived in a one family house with the dog and the two parents and the three children. And my dad had gone to college. He had a degree in chemistry. My mother, who was very bright, had not gone to college, and I do not know what else I should tell you about that. IG: 01:27 Well, that gives us a sense so you were encouraged to pursue your studies. I take it. LG: 01:40 No, I was not discouraged. Certainly, my brother did not go to college. My sister and I both did. And yeah, I guess I was supported to go to college, not with a particular career path in mind, because I did not know what I wanted to do, and so I wanted to get a good general education, which is part of how I ended up at Harpur and then subsequently made a career path. But my parents were supportive, and they were proud of me for going to school and going to a good school and graduating. IG: 02:22 Good, so why did you decide on Harpur College? Did you look at other schools? LG: 02:29 I did, certainly look at other schools. I transferred into Harpur after my freshman year. I was at a local school, and I just did not feel it was giving me enough of what I was looking for, I applied to several of the SUNYs happily got into them, and the program at Harpur was more to my liking. I went to visit. I am not going to mention the other ones. I went to visit, and I liked what I saw more at Binghamton. Then when I saw at the other schools, part of what I liked was the size of the school, and I think it is a lot bigger now, from what I have been reading, but I looked at some of the different university centers, and Binghamton seemed a nicer fit for me. IG: 03:16 Right. So, and what year did you enter Binghamton? What was the when you transferred? What year was that? LG: 03:24 My sophomore year, and which would have been (19)69, (19)70. IG: 03:29 (19)69. So, what did the campus what was the campus like? What was the environment like when you came in? LG: 03:35 In terms of the buildings, they were not it was they were not too pretty. They were utilitarian. And certainly, most of the time it seemed like there was snow on the campus, but the I think educational opportunities were outstanding, and I then had a school experience to compare it to. And in fact, one summer, I also took a course at the local community college because I wanted to get some more credits under my belt. And I just thought Binghamton was a nicer intellectual environment- IG: 04:23 Right-right. LG: 04:23 -than the others I had experienced. IG: 04:25 Right. So, and what were the- your fellow students like this was a time of great change and ferment on campuses, on college campuses, what did you experience of that? LG: 04:45 And-and I had a sense that Binghamton was a little bit more out there than some other schools, too. IG: 04:51 Yeah. LG: 04:53 A lot of the other students, I knew. It was when I was at Harpur. And I am using the terms kind of interchangeably obviously, a lot of the other students were down staters were predominantly but not in all Jewish Americans. And there was certainly a diversity, but it was a disproportionately white down state school environment. I think I lost the rest of your question. IG: 05:23 So just what were the students like? So, you are describing that, that they were kind of more out there, and it was- LG: 05:31 I will give you a perfect example out there. Perfect example. It was not until my senior year of school that I had spring finals, because every other year the school closed down for protests against the Vietnam War. IG: 05:46 Wow, that is great. LG: 05:47 And one year I remember going to Washington by bus. One year I remember going to Washington in somebody's Volkswagen, but we went and we marched, and 1000s people left Harpur to go protest the war. IG: 06:04 Okay, so did your parents- were your parents politically inclined? Were they? LG: 06:10 Not until Kent State, my parents were- IG: 06:13 They reacted to it. LG: 06:14 Yes, my parents were not enthusiastic. I was going off on these various marches and that that school was closed for us to go protest the Vietnam War after Kent State, my father, who was even more conservative than my mother, said he supported the end of the war and understood what we were doing, remembering, of course, that There was a draft at that point and so, a draft for young men, and so all young men were being caught up in that it was not a volunteer military, and that made a huge difference. So, there was the-the political and economic reasons, and there was the draft reasons. People certainly did not want to get involved. I knew people who went to Canada rather than get drafted if they had a low draft number. So-so there was a politically active environment. I still went to school and I still learned things, but there were a lot of politics going on. I saw- you might be thinking about things like women's rights and gay rights. There was some early Inklings when I was at Harpur, but I would not say a lot. There was a gay association meeting, but I do not think there were a lot of people who showed up for it. I do not know for sure. I for sure. And feminism was something that, philosophically, one believed in, but there was not a lot of consciousness raising yet. So, it was really on the cusp of a lot of these things. IG: 07:53 I think, I think that that is the sense that I have gotten from other alumni I have interviewed. So, I am just curious, where did your obviously, you were very engaged in the politics of the time. Where did you politicize- how did your politicization come about? Was it from high school? It was, did it happen at Harpur College? Do you remember how that happened? LG: 08:22 It is a good question. I would have to say kind of yes and yes. In high school, lots of people were concerned, involved doing things about civil rights, and think there was an evolution to the, to-to world view. And of course, a disproportionate number of the soldiers of American soldiers in Vietnam were minority soldiers, so it was a likely evolution. As an example, when I was in high school, Martin Luther King spoke at my synagogue, and he spoke about civil rights, [crosstalk] yeah, IG: 09:04 I did not know. LG: 09:05 And he spoke about, of course, civil right. And I remember one of the congregants said to him, "What about the war in Vietnam? What is your stance?" His answer at that point was, I am paraphrasing wildly, was basically, "I have enough on my plate trying to deal with civil rights at home." This was before the Voting Rights Act had been passed. Shortly thereafter, he came out against the war in Vietnam, because it is all interrelated. And so, from high school, there were political issues going on at Harpur, it was even more so. There was more of an awareness. And whether it was other students or some of the faculty or articles in the newspaper, the campus paper, or information on the news, there was more of an awareness. And I think virtually everybody I socialized with, if not literally everyone who I considered friends would were equally involved and motivated to do something specifically about the war and then about other issues as well. IG: 10:17 So-so, you know, I mean, it was, it was you were, you were in the I do not know how many marches on Washington there were, but you were, you were there. Could you describe how you sort of rallied together as a group and went on one of these marches? LG: 10:40 I have been to Washington many times for different marches IG: 10:45 As a Harpur College student? LG: 10:46 Right-right. So, there were things having been there even before on other marches, there were things I was used to, things I would look at. And I have also been to Washington since then for other protest marches. So, I remember one year going down, and I think that was the year we took the bus. We all busses out of Binghamton, and we stayed more or less as a group and followed the route that had been set. But I remember the following year when we were in cars, and this was salient to how I traveled, because we came into the city by a different route, and seeing tanks and soldiers with guns, machine guns, on top of federal buildings. And whereas that certainly was both meant to and accomplished intimidation. It was meant to intimidate us. It also redoubled our spirit that we were there for a reason to tell the government what they had to do, not agree, just to let things go on as they are. So, we marched this group. I do not remember if we launched behind any banner that said SUNY Binghamton or not, but there were 1000s, or 10s of 1000s, certainly, of people protesting the war. And when we read about it the next day in the paper or we saw it on the TV news, we felt we were trying, we were accomplishing something to get our voices heard that this was an inappropriate action by our government. IG: 12:21 That, you know, it must be a tremendous experience to have a sense that at a young age, your actions can actually influence world politics, world you know, I do not know that this generation has the sense. LG: 12:39 Which generation you are talking? IG: 12:40 Well, the current, you know- LG: 12:41 I think- LG: 12:42 I think, for example, on gun control, the people, I hope, are at Harpur now, I think are more involved in trying to get some sane gun laws passed, because they were feeling more impacted by it. The baby boomers definitely impacted what was going on in Vietnam and definitely impacted foreign policy. That is huge thing. I expected my generation to keep doing things like that, and I think we have done some other things, but not as dramatic, IG: 12:42 -certainly- IG: 13:14 Not as dramatic as (19)60s. LG: 13:16 Well, you have to have something dramatic to fight against to have some dramatic results. And-and IG: 13:23 As we do now. LG: 13:24 And so, for example, we have gone to the women's march in DC, and IG: 13:32 But that was after your time at Harpur. This was- LG: 13:35 Yes, two years ago. I am saying, for example, IG: 13:37 I see. LG: 13:39 So, there is a continuity of social activism. IG: 13:42 That is wonderful. LG: 13:44 Or we have gone to some gun-gun control rallies. So, I think there is a continuity. And I know I am in touch still with a couple of people who I went to school with, and I know one was a lawyer who deals with immigration rights, so she has made it her career to help people. And another one, who was, who was an artist also does social or volunteer work, I think is the best word with a very diverse group. So, I think there is a thread that is followed through. I feel from my time at Harpur, I think other people probably do too. IG: 14:33 I think, you know, it is certainly true, but they express their engagement with the-the world in different ways, you know, they may not have been, as the people that I have spoken to, you know, continue being participants in group protest. I think that this is, you know, this is your-your path. This is LG: 15:01 One of the famous quotes out of early feminism. Is the personal is political. So however, you take it, to implement it if you have an emotional or political stance that something should be this way or that way? IG: 15:15 Yeah, well, let us talk about this a little bit. Because, you know, in the late (19)60s, certainly, you know, this is a time of rethinking roles and in the household, and you know you were, you were brought up, maybe in a certain way, and you know, maybe to, I do not know, I do not want to put words into your mouth that, you know, maybe your parents expected you to get married, you know, to have a family or not. But you know, how did that sort of, you know, expanding of consciousness take place, and was it at all at college or? LG: 15:59 Certainly, I think it was expected that I would, I would have the more traditional life path and find a husband and have some kids and follow that path, which obviously I have not. I think more of the consciousness raising was post Binghamton years more so when I was in graduate school, I think feminist movement got more of its legs under it, or at least I knew more about it at that point. IG: 16:29 What years did you go to graduate at- LG: 16:31 I graduated in (19)74 and this is from SUNY Albany. IG: 16:36 Yeah, so, but-but sort of, you know, feminism, the feminist movement. When did it start kicking in in the late (19)70s, or, you know, I mean- LG: 16:49 Oh no, early-early, way earlier. Sidebar, I was at a dinner at which Gloria Steinem spoke and I rifled through some of my old stuff, and I found my first copy of MS Magazine, and I took it to her and got her to sign it my prized possession. And she looked at the cover, and it shows Wonder Woman striding over the land and saying, health care for everyone and food for everyone and end the war. And Gloria Steinem said to me, "Would not it be wonderful if we could have accomplished that in these years?" And I said, "Who was still working for it?" And so, there is things do not happen overnight. And we still keep looking for them. IG: 17:36 Yeah. But it is, it is, it is tremendous how you know, what a sea change mores, you know, norms, yes, social norms have undergone, you know, and since you graduated. LG: 17:54 Yes, absolutely-absolutely, most of the- I was an English Lit major. IG: 18:01 Yeah, tell us, we need to talk about it. LG: 18:03 Okay, most of the authors whose works I studied were men. IG: 18:10 Yes. LG: 18:13 With very few exceptions. And so, one could graduate at that point and think that the only literature had been written by men. IG: 18:25 Well, with the exception of Austin and Brontes. LG: 18:28 Yes, I said, yeah. [crosstalk] But really, far fewer than- IG: 18:33 Far fewer, of course, of course. LG: 18:36 -just a whole different world, and not only men, but European men. IG: 18:39 Yes. LG: 18:40 So, the voices we heard were very different than what a curriculum is now. And I have, I have spoken to friends of mine who are either professors or even high school teachers, and asked them and gotten book record. Asked them what-what their curriculum is, what-what, who was- what authors they are reading, got recommendations and follow through on things like that. Because I feel that my education, although wonderful, was very stilted/ We did not know it. Then, of course IG: 19:12 We did not know that. We did not know that. LG: 19:13 We thought, we thought, well, these are the voices, whereas, obviously they were some of the voices. IG: 19:15 There were some of the voices right. LG: 19:24 Even I took a course specifically in American Jewish fiction. And I was thinking about this the other day when I knew- IG: 19:35 Bella Roth. LG: 19:37 All-all of the writers we studied exactly- IG: 19:41 Were men. LG: 19:42 -were men. Now, subsequently- IG: 19:45 Yeah, subsequently. LG: 19:46 -I know that there have been women writers, and fine women writers. Should have been included. It was just, shall I say, an assumption, yeah, this is who you would study. So, there was built in by. Bias that I believe has been rectified in coursework these days, but when I was there, it was not. IG: 20:09 So, was it frightening? Was it frightening to kind of go against the grain in some way, or I mean, what was the emotional impact of that? LG: 20:21 In terms of? IG: 20:23 In terms of, you know, of siding with siding with the activists, the feminist activists, and- LG: 20:32 Certainly, being an activist against war in Vietnam was something that virtually everybody at Harpur did, so that was siding with, siding with, with people who were there, yeah, becoming more feminist was, is, and still is somewhat challenged by people. But when you, when something is, you do it, right choice. It is the right thing. IG: 21:04 Right. So, but that is that is looking at the past, you know, that is looking at the past from the perspective of now, but it might have been, you know, anyway. I mean, it is just, it is interesting to consider that, you know, you still probably have to go through some kind of emotional journey, right? LG: 21:24 Sure-sure. IG: 21:25 Yeah, okay, so-so, you know, let us How did you, you know, let us talk about your easier subjects, your-your coursework, and some memorable professors and- LG: 21:41 Coursework professors. That is been a few years. So, I may not come up with names as readily. Because it just, you know, other things that I am thinking about. There were some very large lecture halls, and then we would have teaching assistants who might do some follow up classwork with us. I do not know if that is still a structure in use. IG: 22:03 Probably. LG: 22:04 As the years went on, the classes got smaller because they were more specialized. They were less generalized. And so that one class I mentioned was, I am thinking, two dozen students, an off the cuff guesstimate, and I remember some of the professors and the outstanding ones I thought were extraordinary. I thought they were wonderful. But I do not know that I am going to come up with any of their names. IG: 22:35 It does not it does not matter what were some of the classes that you took that still have maybe an impact, that they open something for you. LG: 22:46 So certainly, some of the Shakespeare classes were wonderful, and American literature I found meaningful and in which way, in which way, learning about new things, learning about new subjects, topics, issues that I had not known about. I mean, as a kid, I did not know about them, Shakespeare, in terms of all he brings to any of his plays in human aspects and how people deal with one another. I took a course in the Bible is literature, yeah, and I had not occurred to me that that even could have been taught that way, and learning the-the logic of the flow of the Bible was just a mind expansion for one of description and so and so. What I think I got out of a lot of it was not only new thoughts, but ways to think of things, not necessarily the ways I had thought of them before. That it was that anything I was looking at were opportunities to think about them in a different path. IG: 24:01 That is very interesting. Okay, so returning also to campus. So, you-you were very involved in the anti-war movement, but you know how and-and your classes, obviously, how did you spend the rest of your free time on campus was, was Harpur College? Was it still Harpur College a party school? Did? Were there parties? Were there? I mean, how did- LG: 24:40 I would not think of it as a quote, unquote party school, because my definition of a party school is that-that is the main reason some people are there. Now I had one friend who was absolutely partying all the time, but she never graduated. And yes, I would have to say there were parties, but um, not capriciously, people, by and large, did also study or go to school, and that was the main reason we were there. I remember one night, somebody said we should have a party, and somebody else said, “We need an excuse. What is the reason?” somebody in this group looked at the calendar and said, "Oh, it is Arizona Statehood Day." So, we had an Arizona Statehood Day party that went on for several years. [crosstalk] the dorm [crosstalk]I have no idea if it continues. It was an excuse for a party, but I do not think of it as primarily a party school. There was great camaraderie, there was great socialization. Sometimes just walk down the hall and fall into somebody else's dorm room and, you know, talk for hours and hours. But it was not specifically a let us go out and drink school when I was there. IG: 25:52 And there were, in particularly, a lot of bars to go drinking. LG: 25:56 I do not recall a lot of bars in the neighborhood at all. IG: 25:59 Well, you know, and Binghamton, I mean, you come from Great Neck, so you were, I mean, Long Island was different when you were growing up, right than it is now. So, you probably had seen sort of, you know, pockets of more rural life around you in Long Island. But how did Binghamton strike you; did it give you a sense that America is very different than your particular, you know, New York experience. LG: 26:31 Hmm. IG: 26:33 Did- I mean? What? What did you think of Binghamton? LG: 26:37 We have already discussed what I thought of the weather, so that was not a selling point. And the area, I did not think the city was too sophisticated. Trying to get a good bagel was virtually impossible. We had a friend who was a Vietnam vet, and his job was to drive down to Monticello and come back with his Volkswagen filled with bagels to be sold on the weekend in Binghamton. But any other time of the week, if you wanted to get a bagel, it was a hard thing to find a decent bagel. So obviously not a problem on Long Island at that point or this point either. So, Binghamton seemed a lot more, a lot less sophisticated than the island at that point. And that may be snobbery from where I grew up, or it may be a reflection of the times. But speaking of the times, you could not get the New York Times easily in Binghamton. You pre order it, but it was not readily available. IG: 27:48 You mean the library did not carry it. LG: 27:49 I do not know if the library got it, but you could not get your own copy. I know that. Whereas, couple years later, when I was in Albany, there were new stands where I could get the times. So, BMW was not the most sophisticated area. But I was not there for-for museums or theater, for example. I was there for the school. So, although I do remember Roberson Gallery, I do not know if it is still there. IG: 28:15 It is. It is. LG: 28:16 That that that plate that I had given to my parents, the one on the bottom there. IG: 28:20 I can see it from-from-from here. Yeah, yeah, it still exists. And there is a wonderful art museum also that you know has sort of astonishingly good, surprisingly good exhibitions. It has, I do not know if you know the photographer, Jay Jaffee, they are all photo, you know, I mean, it is the entire collection. I have them on my iPhone because I sent them to friends. It is New York in the early (19)50s. It is wonderful-wonderful. LG: 28:43 No, I remember going to that gallery specifically to get, kind of, shall I say, a fix of art, to see some art. thinking it was a very accessible size, right? Metropolitan in New York, and it was overwhelming, but we could go to that one and really, get a good night that we could appreciate of the artwork. IG: 29:13 Yeah, I mean their pockets, their pockets of culture, you know, theater, for example, LG: 29:18 And-and there was a lot of music, a lot of music, music, yes, at Harpur, when I was there, both live music, there were some wonderful concerts and a range of artists IG: 29:30 On campus? LG: 29:31 On campus, yes, a range of artists. And then people were always playing music on their phonographs to drink that story. But when I was at Harpur there, Ella Fitzgerald came, IG: 29:44 Oh well. LG: 29:44 Grateful Dead were there Sha Na Na. And then smaller venues, smaller performers like Dave Van Ronk, so there was a wide swath of live music. And, and we went, you know, you would go, you get a ticket for a few bucks and have this wonderful performance. outstanding. So that was part of the social life too. IG: 30:13 That was part of the social Yeah, very much so, and probably greater participation from students then than now. I do not know how many students go to the concerts now, so you mentioned that you earlier that you did not really spend the summers in on campus because it was going there was a tri semester- LG: 30:37 Yes. IG: 30:38 -system, so you return to Long Island during the summer? Did you work? Or did you just kind of kick back? LG: 30:48 One summer, I went to one of local colleges to get some more credits. And the other summers, I worked basically as a waitress for restaurants- LG: 30:58 Right-right-right. LG: 30:59 to get some cash. IG: 31:01 Right-right-right. So, you know, issues of the time, we talked about the war, we talked about the civil rights. Were there any did you notice that there were any minority students on campus? LG: 31:17 Absolutely, absolutely, and it was not segregated. IG: 31:22 No. LG: 31:23 People I considered my group of friends were different backgrounds, different races, um, although, as I said before, it was clearly majority white, downstate students there, a mixed community. IG: 31:47 You know, in on campus, you are probably just a handful. LG: 31:51 I do not, I do not think there were a lot of minorities. IG: 31:54 There were not a lot of- any international students, do you remember? LG: 31:57 I remember one student from, from Iran, IG: 32:01 Oh! LG: 32:02 And but I do not remember students right other places IG: 32:08 Right. Okay, that is fair enough. Okay, so have you been going back to Binghamton for any of the homecoming celebration? LG: 32:19 I have not gone back to Binghamton. In fact, we were discussing before, how is I worked as a consultant for quite a while. At one point I had a client upstate, and we drove by. And I thought, well, I could stop in, but the place in my mind is set in my mind, and it is very much different place now. And I have not gone to homecoming because the people I was friendly with, I have not seen their names listed as they were going. And just to see other people my age, I can do that anywhere. So, I have not gone back to the school. IG: 32:59 I was surprised that there were at least 1000 you know, names. I do not know how many showed up for this particular homecoming. LG: 33:11 Now, I will say, just interrupt you a second. A couple of years ago, I did. We went into the city, met a couple of friends who had been on my dorm floor. They had recently had a lunch with another friend who had come up from Florida. I was not able to make that and I said, but let me know if there was another opportunity we got together, and I have kept contact with one of them, although the other one has gone away. So, it is a more personal self-development, if you will, without going to the campuses. IG: 33:43 Okay, that is fair enough. So, you know you graduated, and could you give us a sense of your career trajectory after-after graduation, you went to library schools, right? LG: 33:58 So, I got my master's two years later from SUNY Albany school library science. And my personal goal was to help people find information. And first job I got was in a not for profit for people with severe physical disabilities. And had a research program. I was helping the research get done and involved in some of the research activities, a wonderful program, and it ended when the federal grant ended, and it was not a good economic time. And I had- IG: 34:32 Was this in New York City, or this is- LG: 34:35 Long Island. I had applied all over the country, and ended up getting something within 10 miles of where I lived. When that grant ended, I looked very hard to find a new job, and could not find anything at that point within the library field, and I was open to other opportunities because I wanted a job, and I got a job in records management with a bank in Brooklyn. And they wanted somebody who knew how to handle information. And it was a small bank that grew dramatically during the decade or so that I was there, not just because I was there, obviously the way it was managed, but when we would acquire another bank, it meant, what information did they have. How were they managing and how did they control it? How did they get rid of the information when it was time? Did they have a role for what to keep and what to get rid of? And so, I was involved in those merger activities. From there, I went to the music industry. So, it was kind of a pun on records management, because they music industry has to deal with records and sound records and informational records. And I did that for about a decade. IG: 35:49 What was the did you work for a company or organization? LG: 35:53 Worked for a Performing Rights Society. So, we had to track when different songs were performed and the audience who had the opportunity to hear them, a Binghamton station has a smaller audience than a New York City Station, and then royalties would be paid out to those performers, specifically the writers and the publishers and the music, rather than the performers, per se. And I did that for, as I said, about a decade, and then segued back into more of a business world and into consulting, where I did work for a company, so I had his salary and benefits and all that, but had different clients and helped them develop or implement records management program. IG: 36:41 And also, the field changed with automation. LG: 36:46 All of all these fields change, whether we are talking library science or records management. For example, you have your primary copies of information the-the way a record is initially developed, and then when it is digitized, it is secondary copy, but it is available to more people, so we would do the same sort of things. I had a client who was a big real estate company headquartered in New York City, and they wanted to take their various leases and legal documents and digitize them to safeguard the originals, but have access to the information. And you know, sure your library is doing similar things with original yes versus secondary copies. IG: 37:31 And when did the records management, you know, industry become automated? Was it in the early (19)90s, or do you rem- LG: 37:43 Again, things evolve. Formats evolve. So, you had microfilm going back decades, and it is a wonderful archival format. People do not like to use, and when I went to the bank in the early (19)80s, we were micro filming right mortgage documents. So, and then that evolved to digitizing documents or the microfilm into searchable databases that are more accessible. So, it is an evolution. IG: 38:18 An evolution. And so, you have been a consultant for how long? And just tell us about your consulting work. LG: 38:29 I consulted for well over a decade. and I got clients. I was not a salesperson. I got clients who were in industries that were heavily regulated or and or heavily litigated. So, most of my clients were interstate, national or sometimes international companies in for example, insurance, pharmacy, financial services. And if they did not manage the information, they would just be keeping too much. That would cost them too much, in terms of litigation, could be researched for too long. So it was too much to handle, and they had to know what to keep, how long to keep it, when to get rid of it, when to track, all right, all of that, what was their reasons for keeping or reasons for getting rid of information which are both based on corporate needs and based on legislative needs. IG: 39:39 So, what kind of where did you consult? What kind of companies or whom did you consult for? You know, what type of businesses? LG: 39:51 Yeah, I am purposely not going to tell you the names [crosstalk] Okay, agreed. So, a lot of banks. A few some insurance companies, health care related information. And each of these industries has different rules and regulations, and from state to state, the rules are different with international clients, and I had clients, both in Canada and Europe. The rules, again, are different and what can be kept and what can be what information should be gotten rid of, and where it can be kept, change from place to place. So, we had a legal team that we worked with to help us come up with the recommendations back to these companies, and then also, I should say, on occasion, I did some pro bono work. I did a program for a local not for profit that did housing for low-income people, because I thought it was the right thing to do, and I had the knowledge and ability and time to do it IG: 40:59 Wonderful. LG: 41:00 So, there was a variety of kinds of clients. From fortune 25 to this company with fewer than 25 people on staff. IG: 41:11 Right-right. So, would you say that you have been happy in your career? LG: 41:20 By and large, I had liked my career. There was certainly ups and downs, but I found it. I found the work I did both challenging and reinforcing. And when I was consulting, I got to do a lot of traveling on somebody else's dime. [crosstalk]I love to travel. And so not only would I get to meet new people, but I get to see new places. And even when it was a city that one would not necessarily pick as a vacation spot, I had a client in Winnipeg, Canada, I had fun there. I met new people; I saw new things. They have a Chinese restaurant at their baseball stadium. It is called, who is on first, terrible [inaudible], but it was funny. It is a good story. So, and I got to meet some wonderful people in other places. So-so, yes, by and large, I liked my career a lot. Yeah. IG: 42:21 Could we ask you how you met your wife? What [crosstalk] more personal? LG: 42:29 More personal. So, I mentioned that I went to work for a bank, after my stint as a librarian, and I was hired to be there, I became their records management officer. I was hired IG: 42:41 This was how many years ago? LG: 42:44 I joined the bank, in 1982. IG: 42:46 Okay. LG: 42:49 And so, I was in charge of the records management program and dealing with all the different branches and corporate offices and corporate functions. And Roberta came in to be one of the trainers, and so we were both in fields or functions. We have to understand the operations that are going on right and communicate the information. And we started working together. She was doing a program for interns, basically coming into the bank and getting them trained. And one of the areas was for them to learn about what information records to keep and how to keep them. So, we had some-some meetings. Eventually started carpooling, because although the bank was in Brooklyn, our-our office were both in Brooklyn, we both lived in Queens at that point. So, we started car IG: 43:40 Where in Queens? LG: 43:42 Near St, John's University. IG: 43:43 Oh, I know. LG: 43:45 So, we started carpooling and-and we became friends, and then it developed into a relationship, and we have celebrated our 32nd anniversary. IG: 43:58 That is wonderful. LG: 43:59 And we have been married three times because when we first got married, we were married in a synagogue. Reformed Jewish movement said we could get married. We were the first gay couple congregants who got married at Temple, but our rabbi had to make a statement it was not a legal marriage because we were not allowed to be legally married. And then we went out to San Francisco. We got legally married. If you recall when the states were doing marriages here and there, several years after, then the third time, we got married in our current synagogue, and it is legal in New York, and now it is Supreme Court decision, legal everywhere. So that is all good. Anything else? [laughter] IG: 44:46 [crosstalk] taking it in, because it is so interesting. So that must have been tremendously satisfying to have the Supreme Court decision allow you to- LG: 44:58 The Supreme Court. at that point, made a decision and said, all Americans can have equal rights. You know, we, of course, had to draw up extra legal documentation. Even just a handful of years ago, we drove down to Florida, and as we were driving through the Carolinas, we were mindful that we had to have documentation in case, God forbid, one of us got sick, to say the other one is to say the other one has legal rights to say what our health care decision should be, because in Carolinas at that point, they were not in agreement. So, but I will tell you another story that I also thought was very satisfying when we got married in temple in 2004 my mother walked us down the aisle, and she was at that point, 91 she was, I think, the oldest congregant in temple at that point, and the potentially the longest-term congregant at that synagogue at that point. And it was such a statement to everybody, not only that the rabbis and the cantor were there for our wedding, but that my mother was-was literally walking us down the aisle and-and loving us both, as she had been at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding. But this was in the same part of the synagogue where they had each been married. But it was a different thing, and it was a, to me, a huge statement. And it certainly had not always been that way. My mother was-was certainly very loving and supportive, and the three of us were wonderful friends, Roberta and my mom and I, but that turned evolution also so, so I am laughing because Roberta is doing some show and tell that was-was at our wedding, and that is my mom in the middle. And we decided to-to have these wonderful hand painted jackets that were just-just we are here. This is a wonderful statement, and it was a wonderful event, and um- IG: 47:20 What do you think are the most important qualities to really weather an evolution in your lifetime? I mean patience, of course, but- LG: 47:34 I have a sense of humor, yeah, and I also am tenacious, so you can just lie down. Do not worry. So-so although I can concurrently keep the long-term view in mind and the immediate details in mind, itis a skill I used in and honed in business. What is the end goal of where I want to be, but what are the steps I have to take to get there now, it is something that I do now in my volunteer work, approving expenses through the budget now, but also saying, “Where do we want to be in five years and 10 years?” So it is that kind of view, and I do think having patience and having a sense of humor are very good skills to help accomplish anything and to keep a perspective, because there are days that get very distressing with-with different news items that come along with different things we hear about. But progress, I think, is on a positive bend, a positive arc, that things are better for people. We were sitting at Temple last Friday, and one of the women we know came up to tell us that her daughter has a new girlfriend. And she was very happy to tell us that, and she was telling everybody sitting at our table a dozen or so people, but this is something that would not have happened a decade or two or three or more ago. IG: 49:07 No, this is, I think, that this is very inspired advice for you know, current students, for example, listening or, you know, to these conversations. What advice would you give to, you know, I mean, students in the future will be very different. But you know, what are, what are some of the lights you have given you know, you have given advice right now of how to live through an evolution of change. What other, what other sort of, you know, career advice, for example, would you give a young person listening to this conversation? LG: 49:51 One of the thoughts I had when you were speaking was, I am not sure that the students are different, per se. Uh, students are in school because they want to learn. IG: 49:57 Yes. LG: 49:58 And they want to they are learning because they want to end up going somewhere. IG: 50:06 Yeah, they may have different- LG: 50:06 Different technologies, you know. So where is, where is? I went to class with pen and ink to-to take notes. Very different technology. It is very- IG: 50:08 But I think also the economy dictates the type of focus that a student has, because when I was going to school, I imagined that I could have a career in liberal arts. Now, students are much more sort of professional minded and so but that is another conversation. LG: 50:38 Yeah, different career paths and different opportunities based on things we said, like feminism. When I was in school, most lawyers, most people going to law school, were men. Ditto medical school. Now the numbers have changed. Same with nursing school, most of them were women. Now there is good representation, very different numbers. I personally, I think having a big picture view of where you want to be going is important. Being willing to change that picture, is important. Being tenacious little bumps in the road, even if they seem big at this point, right, can generally be surmounted or walked around, gotten around one way or another. I do not feel old enough to be giving sage advice, but experience tells me that tenacity is really important. Wanting to keep going is really important. Not letting other people stop you is really important. Continuing to learn is really important, continuing to grow, continuing to do things, continuing to be open to new things, is important. And I think that is that is key tools in anybody's toolkit for a career or for evolving into a better citizen, a better person. IG: 52:13 This has been very lovely and-and moving. LG: 52:18 Thank you. IG: 52:19 Any concluding remarks? LG: 52:24 Well, you came. You came. You contacted me. You came from Binghamton. I have to tell you that I consider Harpur and Binghamton to have been a wildly important time of my life. And I was not a great student. I was not an A level student, when I was there, I was an okay. I was good student. I was an average student, I think. But what I learned was that I could, not only did I learn how to learn which is more important than little facts, I knew how to get information when I needed it, but I learned that I could manage with the best and the brightest. I learned that in an environment with phenomenally intelligent, witty, wonderful other people, I could hold my own, and that is a life skill that when I got to college I did not have, and it certainly has served me well, and so I think that is a good concluding remark. IG: 53:28 That is wonderful. Thank you very much. LG: 53:32 Thank you. IG: 53:32 Thank you. LG: 53:33 I have enjoyed this. IG: 53:34 I have to- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lenore Ruth Greenberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Greenberg, Lenore ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including Iron Mountain LLC. She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn.  Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lenore Greenberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:35 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c98b757796ce138c8b5a38e4e4e6bf.mp3 093a99df6ee3bfd947acb3ae9fcccf45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-11-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jackie and John Visser Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Year of Graduation Jackie 1969 John 1973 Biographical Text Jackie Visser grew up in West Islip, New York, on Long Island, and attended Harpur College, where she met her husband, John. After graduating, she began her career teaching in Catholic schools and later earned her New York State teaching credentials. Jackie went on to earn a master’s degree in reading from the University of Scranton and transitioned into educational leadership, serving as an elementary school principal, Director of Elementary Education, and ultimately Assistant Superintendent. After retiring from public education, she began teaching at the university level and has spent over a decade as a lecturer in the Department of Teaching, Learning, and Educational Leadership at Binghamton University, where she prepares future educators and coordinates the Educational Administration program. John Visser grew up in Goshen, New York, and attended Harpur College, arriving during the summer session of 1965. After graduation, he pursued a career in education, and he has since retired. He and Jackie have a son and continue to live in the Binghamton area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Jackie and John Visser Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 8 November 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, we are on now. JV: 00:02 Okay. My name is Jackie Visser. IG: 00:05 Yes. JV: 00:05 I am I am working here at the Department of Teaching, Learning and Educational Leadership as a lecturer, and we are sitting in my office on November 8, 2018. JoV: 00:15 I am John Visser, retired, in the same office. [crosstalk] [laughter] IG: 00:25 Okay. So, you know, maybe we can answer certain questions sort of in tandem, you know, if anybody wants to JV: 00:33 Jump in. IG: 00:34 Jump in or digress, you know, it is up to you. It is a conversation that we are having with the two of you. So where did you grow up, Jackie? JV: 00:45 I grew up on Long Island. I was West Islip. Is the name of the town. Lived there, went to school there. All my kindergarten through 12th grade classes were there, and then I came to Harpur College. JoV: 01:02 I went to Goshen, New York High School, lived there for a long time, and came to Binghamton in it was July, the summer session of July, 1965 there were about four or 500 students, and that is when Harpur had the trimester situation. And each-each semester lasted for four months. And the summer session went July, August, September and October. JV: 01:34 Parts of October. IG: 01:36 So, Jackie, tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Did your parents go to college? What were their expectations for you? Was education valued in your family? JV: 01:50 Education was certainly valued, but neither of my parents went to college. I mean, I was, we were part of that baby boom generation moved out to a development on Long Island. My father had been in the army. He was a factory worker. My mom ended up driving a school bus. But there was absolutely no doubt in anybody's mind that I was supposed to go to college. And that was just part of what my family was like, it was a, you know, I had two brothers who neither, one of whom went to college. But for some reason I am the one. I was the oldest and, and I know my-my father was one who just insisted that, you know, you get as much schooling as you possibly can so. IG: 02:36 And why do you think that that was? Why do you think that you were, you know, selected in your family to go on to higher education? Your brothers were not well. JV: 02:50 I think it might have been. I was the oldest, and I was and I was doing really well in school. So, I think they saw that possibility, whereas my next youngest brother was not getting all the A's, and he, you know, I think they were probably more opportunities for boys who did not have a college education at the time, as opposed to opportunities for women who did not have a college, college education. So, I do not know. I never really discussed it with them, why they, why they wanted that for me, but that that, maybe that was it. IG: 03:31 Why did you decide to go to Harpur and not another school? JV: 03:37 Well, cost was obviously a factor. Back in the (19)60s, there was this opportunity called the Regent Scholarship, which was paid for your entire tuition. And so state schools was obviously the goal, you know, was where I was going to go. Stony Brook was fairly close, but that would have meant, and I felt like I wanted to get away from from-from home, right? And guidance counselors really pushed me here. There was, there were three or four of us from my high school who ended up coming here. IG: 04:15 What did, what was the reputation of Harpur College back then? JV: 04:20 It was, it was, it was- IG: 04:21 What did they say about it? Your guidance counselors? JV: 04:24 -highly selective, hard to get into. They encouraged me to apply for the summer semester, the summer trimester. IG: 04:33 I see. JV: 04:34 Because supposedly the trimester, the summer session was-was easier to get into than the than the fall semester trimester. So, I do not know. I do not know if I would have gotten into the fall semester or not. You know, I was a good student. I had pretty good SATs, I guess, but I do not know. I was too naive to understand all that at the time. IG: 04:55 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to what studies you wanted to pursue? JV: 04:59 Absolutely not never. [laughs] Oh, did not I? We had the luxury those days of being in a liberal arts college. IG: 05:12 I remember. JV: 05:14 Started out as a math major, that list about two semesters, tried economics for a while. That did not last too long. Ended up graduating as a sociology major. Ended up getting enough Bs in those courses to graduate. IG: 05:34 So, we will return to that. We will return to your academics and other things. How about you, John? JoV: 05:43 My family, I was the first in my family to go to college. My parents, my dad was born in the Netherlands, my mother was born in Poland, and they were absolutely adamant that I needed to go to school and to college and to get ahead. And I mean, they were very insisted, both my brother and I went to school. And it was there was no question my neither my dad, went through like eighth grade. My mother completed like through the third or fourth grade, and she had lived in Poland and in war she was she had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer. And my dad had been relocated to Germany as a forced laborer from the Netherlands, and that was where they meant. So, it was very insistent that we go to school. And again, like Jackie said about the reason I went to Harpur, means it was all the guidance counselors touted it as a very selective place. Liberal Arts, the most difficult one of the universities in the state of New York, the public ones to get into. And I like Jackie, I wanted to get away from home, and this sounded like the place to be. And one, one of my reasons for coming during the summer trimester was to play soccer. I was a soccer player, and you-you could all by the time the fall semester trimester started, it would be the season be over. So, if you want to play soccer, you had to come during the middle of the summer. But there being so few students. We were very-very slim pickings. You know, people who had any experience at all mean 400 total students. That means 200 male students. How many soccer players are there? Not a whole lot. IG: 07:31 Not a whole lot. JV: 07:32 Camps- Camp Harpur is what we called it. You know, it was- IG: 07:35 In the summertime? JV: 07:36 Oh, yeah, it was very it was as empty a campus as it is now. Well, remember, it was a much smaller campus, you know. JoV: 07:43 But there was a lot of construction going on. IG: 07:45 It was here. It was here. JV: 07:47 Yeah, already. JoV: 07:48 It was already here. But and it was the beginning of a big boom. I mean, there was construction everywhere. And I think for the next 10 years we had perpetual construction going on-on all the sites. IG: 08:01 Could I ask, just out of my own curiosity, why did your immigrant parents come to Goshen rather than New York City or some other, you know, immigrant magnet? JoV: 08:15 Well, I mean, it turns out my dad had relatives [crosstalk] pre immigrated. They had already here. So, I see, you know, he needed a place where, you know, he could have some touch with, you know, somebody, and I think, couple of his brothers and one of his sisters already here. But one of his one of his sisters immigrated to Australia, and out of a family of seven, there was only one that remained in the Netherlands after everybody wanted, you know, did all the relocating. IG: 08:47 Very interesting. JV: 08:50 If you want to do research [crosstalk] IG: 08:52 Yeah. Extremely interesting. That is extremely interesting. So, you know, so, what are some of the early impressions of the college? when you first arrived, you said that it was undergoing, you know, construction, virtual, you know, perpetual construction. There were very few students. What were, who were the students in your classes? You know, how were they all from New York City, some from upstate, you know, describe what the milieu was like. JoV: 09:27 Well, preponderance of people were from New York City, but there were definitely people from the Buffalo area, the Syracuse area, a few local people, not, not a whole lot. But, you know, I think the admissions people at the university at Harpur College made it a point to bring in people from all over the state. I do not think we had very many people from out of state, but a few foreign students. IG: 09:53 From where? JoV: 09:55 One of the people I knew came from Iran, another one from Africa somewhere. And they were on, I do not know how they had gotten in, but, you know, we-we had made friends with them, and because I knew they want a soccer team, because they were the best, most experienced soccer players. But I mean, I think you are right. I mean, half the people would you say, dear come from- ame from New York City, Long Island area, at least. JV: 10:22 That was, that was I lived on in the dormitory, and that is where, I mean, that is how I got basically introduced to New York, you know, visiting them on breaks and spending time with them, because I met them, you know, I was farther out on Long Island. We did not go into the city a lot, so, but most of our friends were, were definitely Queens and Manhattan in the Bronx and folks. And then there were some people from Long Island. As I said, there at least two-two came with me. Two classmates of mine from my high school came here. But we did know a lot of folks from-from the Buffalo area and upstate New York. IG: 11:03 Were there any, you know, I imagine that the differences were slight, the cultural differences between upstate students and New York City students. Did you notice any of these? But you were, you came from such a multi-multi home. So, you must have felt very different. JoV: 11:23 The student body was mostly middle class. Most of the students that I met were, if not first time, you know, generation college students, then you know, maybe it had brothers or sisters, but they were very much middle class. And, you know, we got along in that because we were- all had the same experiences. I did not find anybody who you know. My father was a doctor. My father has been- my father was a lawyer. My grandfather has been a lawyer. I did not experience that at all. This is all. We were all here together for first time. See what it was like. JV: 11:55 Yeah, that is pretty much. I cultural differences, not really. IG: 12:00 Not really. JV: 12:00 I mean, I think we the biggest cultural learning that took place for me was learning about more Jewish traditions and cultures. I mean, I remember making matzah brei in the dorm and, you know, just understanding Jewish traditions and cultures and foods and things like that. But other than that, I do not remember. JoV: 12:25 The other thing was the different dialects of New York. Yeah, people from Buffalo speak differently than people from Long Island, than the people from Brooklyn, than the people from Albany, New York, and the people who were, you know, in the Binghamton area. And that was my always sensitivity to, "Wow, I know where you are from. You are from Rochester, perhaps closer to Buffalo, but definitely in that neck of the woods." And- IG: 12:48 So, you have, you have a very good ear. JoV: 12:51 I tend to listen very carefully, and, you know, try to pinpoint where people's accents come from. JV: 12:59 And he tried to beat the Long Island accent out of me. [laughter] JoV: 13:07 30, 40 years. But Jackie's Long Island accent has now disappeared and is now she is a local. IG: 13:15 So, what are some ticks of Binghamton locals’ speech ticks? JV: 13:23 I know that you ask, it is kind of hard to think there is [crosstalk] IG: 13:31 I mean, it is not, it is not necessary for the interview, but if you can think of it, I am just taking this because I do not have it watch. So JV: 13:40 I cannot think of anything. IG: 13:42 You cannot think of anything. I think that there is sort of, you know, a little to a voice, but I cannot, you know, I will identify it when I hear it, but I am [crosstalk] JoV: 13:52 More nasally twang. There is a there are some colloquialisms that are definitely Binghamtonian and but, you know the one- JV: 14:03 It is a double negative that use. JoV: 14:05 So do not I. JV: 14:06 Yeah, so do not I, you know, you know, "I really like brownies." "Well, so do not I, "you know, JV: 14:13 Oh-oh, that is very interesting. JoV: 14:15 It just struck us as, you know [crosstalk] IG: 14:19 That is so interesting. JV: 14:21 The bars would serve tomato pie, Hot Pie. You know, they would advertise instead of pizza, it was called Hot Pie. Let us go to Mike's and get a hot pie. JoV: 14:30 Culinary city chicken, which is, I do not think it is, I do not know why it is called city, and I do not think it is chicken. JV: 14:37 Pork in it, I think. [crosstalk] like meat on a stick. [laughs] I do not know how else to describe it, but just, but how much, how much of some of those things were just regional, and how much was growing up? Because you got to remember, you know, when you are we are finally 18, and now you are on your own, and you are navigating things on your own. So, is it really? Is it really that much different from where I grew up, or is it just the stage of life now, where I am learning about the world? So, I always, you know- JV: 15:00 Yeah, it is what you- JV: 15:07 Yeah. IG: 15:08 You know what you are paying attention to. JV: 15:11 Exactly. IG: 15:12 So, what was, what were the academics like? Were you- are there any professors that stand out, any courses that stand out in your mind that kind of determined you to take a certain route in your career? JoV: 15:32 I would like to answer that. IG: 15:34 Yes. JoV: 15:34 Is- the fact that we are in a liberal art we I took an art course from a professor Wilson who designed JFK memorial in Downtown Binghamton, and the fact that he was instructing freshmen was always amazing to me. Here is an established artist and taking liberal arts courses from various people and who had real academic standing. And I did not, you know it was the anthropology courses, the-the economic courses, but it just the, just the broadness. I mean, I guess you know, being-being, having become, becoming well rounded in various fields, that was the most interesting thing to me. Sometimes I had to redirect myself. "Oh, you got to take these courses." And it was just I was never that interested in, you know, I was always more interested in finding more courses, different courses to take. And that was really quite intriguing. JV: 16:30 I have to admit, I was not a student. That was not JoV: 16:32 You were a student. JV: 16:34 I was. I managed to get through. I did get a degree, but classes and courses, that was not what interested me on campus. I would that was not who I was. [laughs] so- IG: 16:46 Who were you on campus? JV: 16:48 I was a member of lots of campus activities, you know, I- there was a poster, the-the-the I was a member of the student council board, the student center board. It says, presented by the student center board, yeah, and so we, they would bring, and I was on, it was on dorm governance, and just various organizations on campus that that was something that really- IG: 17:17 So, what were so, what-what did these organizations, what did the Mitchell trio? JV: 17:24 It was the folk trio--there was a concert, yeah. So, they had the- IG: 17:27 John Denver, the John Denver. JV: 17:29 Yes. IG: 17:29 Oh, wow. JoV: 17:30 Yeah. JoV: 17:30 Oh, you Chad Mitchell trio. Before-before became John Denver, he was part of a trio. IG: 17:35 Oh, I have no I had no idea. JV: 17:39 And after the concert, you know, he and his guitar went over to somebody's house in Johnson City, and he serenaded us all again, you know, IG: 17:46 How wonderful. JV: 17:48 We talked about. We brought Simon and Garfunkel to campus and paid them, like, less than $2,000 for the concert down in the gym, the first gym. JoV: 18:00 Obviously, before they got really really-really expensive. JV: 18:03 That is, that is wonderful. So-so that was your activity. It was finding those groups- JV: 18:09 Finding those groups and being involved with the people, you know, the other students who were part of that, you know, that was what really interested me, as opposed to, I got through my classes. But I that was where- IG: 18:22 So, what-what, you know, were students talking about? What did they care about during this time? JoV: 18:29 Let me, let me answer [crosstalk] a little bit. This was in the days 1965 all young men who were not in college were going to be drafted. And I can tell you, I mean, that was the number one topic, the war in Vietnam was going full tilt, and if you got kicked out of school, did not come to school, you were going to get drafted and you were going to go to Vietnam. And I can tell you that all the male students, that was their overriding concern. They may have had. They might have had career goals. They might have been pursuing a degree in something they really want. But this stood above all. I mean, this was always on your mind. So- IG: 19:07 Do you feel that it was a, an anxiety that everyone shared, all men shared? JV: 19:13 Gap year. JoV: 19:13 Gap year out of it. I mean, that was out of the question. You know, you want a gap year, you got to be drafted. So, it was definitely on everyone's mind, overriding every single day. You know, we get through and-and the war news. I mean, it just got worsened from 1965 to (19)66 to (19)67 to (19)68 I mean, the war just grew more and more intense. And, you know, the body count was really quite horrific. I graduated from Goshen High with there were 125 students. And there were, there were two people, I know who died. One of them lived on my street. And these were guys, young men, who did not go to college. They, you know, graduate high school, and within six months, they were in Vietnam, and within a year, they were dead. So, I, I felt that it was really, really tough going. JoV: 19:13 Oh, definitely. I mean, a lot of students, I among them, what do they call that? When you, when you, when you when you graduate from high school and you have a you take a year off, IG: 20:19 So, it, you know, it colored the mood. It colored the sort of the like the- JV: 20:23 Well, and then, and then, you know, we were, I am thinking the world. We were not as actively involved in protests, but that is what was starting to happen on campus. You know, that, that you were, you became very much aware of that there were, there were people around the country who were actively against the war, that were actively protesting against the war. I remember we- I think we finally did march from the campus to downtown- JoV: 20:47 1968. JV: 20:47 -1968 involved in a protest. But we were not, we did not occupy the administration building, because that is in my mind, that is not who I was protesting against. But I It was not. It was in 1970 was Kent State, was not it? So it was, we were still in the area, and you know that they, they closed the camp- they just sent in May of or rather, it was in April. So, there was still several more weeks now. Think about all that happens on a campus in April and May. In April, every single, just about every single university in this country since, said, "Go home. Just go home now." JoV: 21:33 And I remember- JV: 21:34 Go home. JoV: 21:35 And students met with the profs, and the prof said, “What kind of grade you want? Because, you know, we are shutting down. We are not doing any more final exams. We are not having any more classes. We are concluding this semester after Kent State, because we do not want the whole thing to blow up.” I mean, I mean, that was the kind of tension that Amnesty- 1965 the war was in a very low-level state. But it just grew and grew and grew and, you know, I- it was just an incredible build up and-and we knew some people who, I knew some people who either had had left school or flunked out, and then, you know, we had heard, oh, they were, you know, they were in the army, or a few of them went to Canada, you know there, and I have never seen some of those people again. IG: 22:26 So, but the campus did have some protests? JoV: 22:31 Oh yeah. IG: 22:32 But-but did you go on marches on Washington, or? JV: 22:39 No, it was just here. Yeah-yeah. I am sure there were students who there were busses and things to Washington. We just did not do that. JoV: 22:46 I mean, I would not call Bingham- Harpur College an activist. JV: 22:49 Yeah, we were not Columbia. JoV: 22:51 I mean, there were, there were people who were active, but not, not like Berkeley or Columbia. IG: 22:57 Yeah, um, so, you know, so when did you meet? When did you when did you meet? When were you together? JV: 23:13 John's roommate, he lived off campus, and my roommate were dating, and several of us would John-John had a car that was, and we would go out. And remember, the drinking age was 18 at the time, and so we would go out and have beers and hot pies and speedies and whatever. IG: 23:32 And this is when, what- JV: 23:33 -in the neighborhood bars, 19- JoV: 23:34 1967, 1968. JV: 23:35 (19)68 so we were just part of a group of people who palled around and then eventually started dating. IG: 23:44 Right. So, you knew each other since then? JV: 23:48 Yeah, but mainly his-his roommate and my roommate were dating, and so I got to know him that way. IG: 23:56 So, you know, I am thinking about the war, and you said that Harpur was not an activist school, per se, and yet, there was a lot of activity on campus that was sort of, you know, politicized. People were politicized here. So, were you part of any kind of, I do not know, paper or radio? JV: 24:19 No, I just was not, I was not that. I was more. I mean, even now, you know, we are good citizens and vote and stuff, but I have not been too much on Washington with my pink hat or anything, you know. I mean, I am support liberal ideas and contribute money and things like that, but not I am just done an activist kind of person. IG: 24:42 What were, what was the significance of, you know, the folk musicians, like the Mitchell Trio? JV: 24:49 They were fun. I mean, I remember what- who was that it became the kosher kitchen. But remember, there was a little coffee house, one of that little way the Fleishman Center is now, and the student, you. Union. And, you know, there people would bring guitars and play folk music, and then the Bill Barker or Bob Barker, what is his name? IG: 25:08 You know, was not it a change in sort of, you know, youth culture, because from-from all of the you know, folk musicians, they were, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary, for example, yeah, when I know Dylan, they all had, you know, a message of social change- JV: 25:25 Right. IG: 25:25 -political change- JV: 25:26 Right-right, yeah, definitely. IG: 25:27 Were you kind of alive to that, to that aspect of them? JV: 25:32 Yeah. JoV: 25:34 I mean, Bob Dylan, you know, was played in dorms from 1965 I mean, just repeatedly, everyone, almost everyone, was involved with Dylan. I mean, it was really the first off campus event I went to in New York, was to see a Dylan concert. I mean, I had seen a bunch on, you know, other concerts on campus, but where I really went out of my way to see Bob Dylan. And- IG: 26:01 Where did you see him? Do you remember? JoV: 26:05 I saw him--I think it was Carnegie Hall. IG: 26:07 Oh. JoV: 26:07 And it was one of his first electric concerts, and he sort of, he did some acoustic guitar the first half, and then he brought on his electric organ and-and he got booed [crosstalk] yes. And, you know, because they were, there were some purists in the audience. And then, you know, I think he eventually won them over, or at least the majority of the audience was won over. But Dylan, to me, is, I mean, I have, you know, as a friend of mine says, "John, have you, you know, bought all his vinyls?" I said, "I try," so very, you know, I think that whole theme of anti-war from him. I mean, I know there were others, other musicians, but I not, not, not as much as him. JV: 26:36 Yeah, no. And I mean, the whole counterculture kind of attitude, you know, do not trust anyone under over 30. And you know, knowing that, that you have some, you ae going to have some responsibility for moving you know that, that I definitely felt that I was, was part of me, but-but I just was not, you know, I was not a, an activist kind of person. [crosstalk] IG: 27:26 Your-your future life to be sort of along the same path as your family, as your mother and father. Did you think that you would get married and then, you know, have children and retire, or did you, did you envision a different future for yourself? JoV: 27:49 I could just speak for myself that I did not my-my concern was- what was going to happen after the four years when my deferment is up. I really was incapable of thinking much beyond that. Is there life after, after schools? Do not know. You know, am I going to live in the United States or not? Do not know. Am I going to be alive? I do not know it was, it was that overwhelming. I, if I may, I will tell you one story, when, when did the draft started to not to end, but they had a lottery. I do not know if you remember that. And every, every young man in the country was now, because there was so such a differential in various areas. I mean, some people were drafted, some people were not. So, they have a lottery, so everybody was going to get a number. And then every so we were listening to the Harpur radio station. Jackie and I were driving in the car, and they were reading the numbers JV: 28:43 Based on your birthday. JoV: 28:44 So, if they read this is number one, April 27 that means that you were going to be the first one called. And if you get a high number, you were probably not going to be called. So, we were trying to listen for my birthday. It was 365,366 you know; dates they have to go through. So, we finally get the campus and we, you know, what number did you get? What I mean, that was the, you know, that was it. And after that, I mean, I got a relatively high number, and I that was the first time. I do not know when that happened. It was early 1970 late 1969 I finally could think of, oh, yeah, now, you know- JV: 29:15 But you had already got, you had gone for a physical just before that. JoV: 29:18 Oh yeah. I mean, I mean- JV: 29:18 John, John extended, you know I mean the draft, a full-time student was four classes. But what I mean, most students were taking 16 credits, four classes, but you could still be considered full time if you were taking three for the and if you were full time, you were going to get this exemption. So, John, sort of like, spread things out. You took a long time. I graduated in December of (19)69 but you did not graduate. Well, you that Kent State erupted, you know., JoV: 29:51 But three courses, I mean, was no reason for me to take four courses. We might. Am I going to finish earlier? And so finally, you know, I had, I. And run out the string. And then the Selective Service in Goshen and said, you know, your time is up. You have used your four years since you matriculated at Harpur. And so, they sent me for a physical in Syracuse. And then this lottery, I said, “But the lottery, you are still going for a physical, okay?” JV: 30:18 But it was like, within days the lottery came about, and he did never get drafted. IG: 30:23 People do not appreciate what a sense of tension, of anxiety- JV: 30:30 Control. It was a controlled {crosstalk] IG: 30:32 Control over a huge, you know, swath of young people, psychologically. What that meant for them later on, you know, or during that time. JoV: 30:45 I took a bus from the Binghamton Federal Building to Syracuse and had a physical, and then got into some disagreement with some of the military people, not just, you know, and they wanted me to stay overnight, to do something else. And I said "No," and they said, "You are not getting back on the bus." I said, "That is all right." So, I called Jackie, and she had to drive up to Syracuse and pick me up. And I was, I was outraged. I mean, I was, I was fuming. I was just- JV: 31:13 I am afraid now that the police are going to come and guard him away because arrest him. Are we going to Canada now? JoV: 31:21 That was the, you know, I do, but luckily, you know, the everything was held in abeyance until this lottery. And then, I mean, that was the beginning of a new, new page. Okay, now, what am I going to do? IG: 31:35 So, what did you do? JoV: 31:35 Well, Jackie had started teaching in in Johnson City. So, I said, "Well, I might as well try that too." And, you know, I really had no plans. I had no idea, you know, we live here and, well, at least for the time being. You know, this is easy. I cannot I cannot fathom moving and starting, oh, you know, just, let us settle down and for at least a couple of years. And a couple of years turned into next 40 years. JV: 32:01 Your career. Yeah, yeah. I had sworn all along I was never going to teach, but I went to the New York State Employment Agency looking for a job after I graduated, and they sent me to a Catholic school who needed a fourth-grade teacher, and they hired me. And that is, you know, I am now teaching in the department of teaching, learning, educational leadership. So, you know, who knew I-I had no idea. IG: 32:27 Fell into that career both you. JV: 32:29 never in the, you know, in 1965 Did I imagine I myself being a teacher. IG: 32:35 So, so tell me a little bit about your career trajectories, you know. So, you-you kind of fell into the teaching profession, and what happened, you know? Give us an overview. JV: 32:48 I taught in the Catholic schools. I just thought I figured out I like teaching and I wanted to continue. So, I worked to get my teaching credentials from New York State and found a job. I was hired by the Union Endicott school district as a reading teacher because I had taken a number of reading courses as I was working toward my credential, and taught reading there for 12 years. And then I became I-I had, in New York State, you need a master's degree. So, I had managed to get a master's degree in reading at the University of Scranton, and talked to my principal at the time, and I said, "Okay, so now what?" And he said, he says "We should think about administration." So, I continued taking courses, became the principal of the of an elementary school, and then director of elementary education and then Assistant Superintendent when I retired, and I am a lecturer here. I am not on a tenure track that I was an adjunct and of the five faculty members one year, two of them left to take other positions, and they really were kind of desperate. They said, well, here, you know, become a full-time person, and that was 13 years ago. So, I have been doing that. I have been here ever since. So, what do you do here? I teach courses in the literacy program. We prepare young men and women to be teachers, to get their credential, and then when another faculty member left who was in charge of the Educational Administration program. They asked me to be that program coordinator. So now I am working in the program. I am coordinating the program that prepares men and women to be principals and supervisors and that sort of thing in schools. They picked me because I-I had one of those jobs, so they figured, I must know what I am doing. IG: 34:43 That is very interesting. Do you, do you have, do you offer a doctoral program in the Education Department? JV: 34:49 Yeah, we do, but in curriculum and instruction, it was not a leadership program, but it was just, it was, it was a, it was an EDD. IG: 34:58 So, you do not offer an EDD? In leadership? No, we do not know. JV: 35:02 Although our- the courses that we offer are 600 are 600 level courses in can be the ED leadership courses can be used as electives and the doctor courses, but it is not any, any DD in leadership. IG: 35:18 I see, I see. I am just curious. JV: 35:21 Okay. IG: 35:24 So, you know this is, what about your family life? Did you have- JV: 35:32 One son. IG: 35:32 Yeah, you have one son. JV: 35:34 Yep, Andy, yep. He is 38 now. [laughs] IG: 35:42 And is he- is he in the vicinity? JV: 35:45 He is, he is living in Athens Georgia currently, because he is married to a woman who is in a doctoral program there. So, she has, she will be, they will be leaving in May for her internship, and we do not know where they are going to be. JV: 36:04 [laughs] I am not even sure he is coming home for Thanksgiving. IG: 36:04 That is, that is the way of grown children, and you do not know where they are going inaudible] IG: 36:04 You might have to go there. JV: 36:10 No, we were not going there, but he might. He said, "Yeah-yeah, we are coming, but we have-" IG: 36:20 So, I am curious also, what you know the women's movement happened in the early (19)70s. It was you were off campus by then. But did you feel signs that you know, attitudes toward women and expectations of women were shifting or not? JV: 36:51 Of course, they were, yeah. They were definitely shifting. I mean, even my sights were, you know, were higher, you know, that, that I could do it, but, but were there still obstacles, you know? Yeah, not everything was apparent that we could do. I still remember one of the administrators in the school district calling us all girls, you know. And I finally had enough courage to request politely that please stop calling us girls. “You know, we are not girls.” He meant it; you know. I mean, he was very polite, caring man. He just needed to be informed that we were not finding it grating, right to be to refer to as girls. But, yeah, I mean, I we women- we very concerned about women getting to becoming, getting into elected office and supporting women who were in elected office. Look, looking up to those people. I mean, I still remember Geraldine Ferraro being nominated as about for a vice president, you know, all those things were eye opening and but yet, IG: 38:08 Did you, did you have a supportive husband? JV: 38:12 Absolutely. IG: 38:12 Yes, supportive of your wife's career. JoV: 38:16 I when Jackie got her master's in Scranton. Scranton is an hour's drive, I mean, and going through the winter, it was, it was difficult. And I, you know, she went with somebody. And finally, she says, “You know, there is got to be better way, quicker way” and she says, “You know, Scranton is a Catholic University. If I go there in the summer, I can live with the nuns and spend four days a week there. Get all my work done. Come on weekend.” I said, “God bless you. Go.” And it turned out to be a real boon for both of us. I mean, it saved her a lot of driving time, and she had very little work, because she says nuns are not that [crosstalk] JV: 38:53 There was nothing else to do. [crosstalk] late, later, late evening, because people were teaching, or working or something. So, I would have, like all day to do my coursework, and then I would come home after my last class on Thursday and not have to be back until my class on Monday. And I did not, except for the toward the end, when the papers were due, when you had to type them on your old electric type writer, remember. IG: 39:19 Yes. JoV: 39:20 You had an electric one? IG: 39:22 Yeah, I remember [crosstalk] JV: 39:24 With carbon paper and erasable paper. Remember when they finally invented erasable paper. I do not know if you remember that. IG: 39:32 I do not remember the erasable- JV: 39:34 White out. IG: 39:35 White out. Certainly, white out. erasable paper? JV: 39:38 They had it. They had a when they when they invented erasable bond, you know, then you could actually get rid of the type without making crosstalk] IG: 39:47 That is right. Now, I do remember I see it. It was, it was a very long time ago. JV: 39:51 Yeah, if you had an expensive IBM, then it had that white out, or actually- IG: 39:55 Right-right-right. So-so you were a supportive husband. Jackie was telling me a little bit about giving her giving me an outline of her career trajectory. Could you tell us what your career was like? JV: 40:17 John was a very supportive husband. He basically raised our son. He was, yeah, he was the- he was done lots and lots of different kinds of things, but I was the career person. I was the one who did that. And he was, he was the, he was the one I we have a colleague who was lamenting the fact that she had a class and could not go to her son's open house. And I said I never saw my son off to school on the first day, you know, that big event where you take pictures and stuff never happened. Because I was always meeting 400 other kids somewhere. Yeah. So, when you talk about changing roles of women, and we were, we were, we were one of the first families where, you know, I was the main career person, and John was the person who was raising, put, keeping the family together and raising the family, you know, taking all care of all the right stuff that needed to be care of. IG: 41:16 So, you know, now it is nor normative. JV: 41:19 Yeah. IG: 41:19 But then, did you experience any criticism? Or, you know, nothing from- JV: 41:26 Not really. IG: 41:27 No nothing. Did you what did you feel, John? JoV: 41:30 I mean, I would meet when-when my son was smaller, I, you know, would take him grocery shopping. And I would always meet other little children who were there with their mothers, and lot of them were teachers whom I knew, and they kind of look at my son was like, well, you know, Dad, it is okay, yeah. So it was, it was different. I mean, not like, you know, today, obviously, but there was some pressure. But as I said, I always worried about more about my son than about myself and he, you know, kids just seem to, you know, no problem. So. IG: 42:07 So how did you keep yourself, you know, you took care of your family, of your son, your wife, you know what-how did you did you pursue your intellectual interests that you developed in college. How did you do that? JV: 42:27 John is the most voracious reader you have ever met in your whole entire life. We subscribe to at least three newspapers. JoV: 42:36 That would be real, physical newspapers, the kind you throw into the fireplace and they-they ignite. JV: 42:39 Put in the bottom of the bird case. IG: 42:42 So, what do you read? What-what papers do you read? JoV: 42:46 We said, The Wall Street Journal comes every day, the times comes on Sunday, and the local paper comes on Sunday. So, you know, our newspaper carrier has she-she deserves a lot of rewards, because on Sundays, you know, the local paper, at the times, there is a, you know, sometimes the five or six pounds with papers come, so. IG: 43:07 It is nice. It is nice to read the-the physical paper. I mean, I read everything online these days. JoV: 43:15 I you know, I mean, I know Jackie reads a lot of it online. I still have some difficulty. I mean, I when you get a paper subscription, you can read it online. And a lot of times I will start, I just cannot. IG: 43:26 Yeah, it is more pleasurable. JoV: 43:28 Yeah. And so, I mean, the New York Times is a habit from college doing crossword together. And, I mean, it is 40 years of, you know, got to have that- JV: 43:42 50,50. JoV: 43:42 I am sorry, 50 years. Got to have that New York Times fix. IG: 43:45 Yeah. Do you feel that you know the-the answer is obvious to me, but do you feel that you know Harpur College played a key role in kind of opening you up intellectually- JoV: 44:01 For me yes, definitely. I mean, I, you know, you take the high school courses. You do well, but it is like the broadening, the things that you find out and, you know, there is another whole world out there. I remember Jackie and I took a theater course, which was really, you know, incredible, you know, it is like, wow, this is what it is all about. I took astronomy and geology. I mean, a lot of the Harpur students were biology students and chemistry students. And I said, “Well, I really want to take these other ones” and just, you know, it is like, wow, there is, there are a lot of different things. So today I hear my son, who went to RPI, I mean, almost all his courses were in computer science. And I am thinking a lot of people are linear. You know, be a liberal arts student. There is, there is really nothing wrong with it that makes a human being. IG: 44:52 I think I-I agree. I agree. And I also think that the theater department here is really top Notch. Did you stay in touch with the campus? Did you continue going, you know, did you go to concerts, to theater productions here together? JV: 45:11 We kick ourselves that we do not go to more, yeah, but we definitely stay, you know, involved. We have never left. It has, it has been part of our lives. We live, you know, five miles and way in Endicott, and it has just always been, you know, we have been here forever. JoV: 45:28 We have been part of the Alumni Association since we graduated down now, if Jackie spoke, she was, she spent maybe a year and a half as the director of- JV: 45:36 Yeah, actually worked. I was, I was president of the Alumni Association. IG: 45:40 Oh, wow. JV: 45:41 And then while I was president, the gentleman who was employed by us as the director, got into some kind of-he left. And so, I took over. I took a leave of absence from my teaching and took over as the-the interim director, while they were doing a search. IG: 46:05 When was that? JV: 46:06 Andy was just born, so it was (19)80- JoV: 46:09 (19)82 or (19)83. JV: 46:10 No, was not he still nursing, I think? Yep, 80- was it (19)81, (19)82? IG: 46:15 Yeah, but interesting. JoV: 46:17 For a year? JV: 46:19 Nine months. It was from January to September. I went back to teaching in September. So, um. JoV: 46:26 So, our connection to the university has been- IG: 46:29 It is very deep. Did you- do you think that your-your grounding in liberal arts informed sort of you know your son's well, your son chose computer science. I do not know what he does, but-but do you think that that it was part of his upbringing that you encouraged him to read- JV: 46:51 He had a dual degree in in social sciences, you know, he- JoV: 46:55 Psychology. JV: 46:56 -psychology, he, you know he. I think he likes to think of himself as a renaissance man. Yeah, you know he- JoV: 47:02 But unfortunately, he has never had a job outside [crosstalk] JV: 47:06 Yeah, he earns his money one way. But yeah, he is an avid reader. He, which pleases me no end as a reading teacher. I remember. I mean, one of the things that just, I just loved, was he has a very-very close friend. And even in as they left high school and during college, his they would give birthday gifts or Christmas gifts to one another. And they were books, you know, they were not CDs and games. They were books. They would share books. And I am thinking, oh my, we did something, right? You know, like- JoV: 47:40 The connection to Harpur. I just should add my son's middle name is Harpur. IG: 47:45 Oh, my goodness. JoV: 47:46 So, we-we had a tough time agreeing on a first name, and finally we decided, both of us, and it was no objection at all. You know, Andrew Harpur Visser. IG: 47:46 Oh, wow. IG: 47:53 That is, that is, that is a huge endorsement of your experience. You know, I do not know there is a better word for it. You know, your love- JoV: 47:53 So. JoV: 48:11 Exactly. IG: 48:13 -for this, for this experience. I am just wondering. You know, this is kind of off of tangent a little bit. But what is illiteracy- you know, what is the illiteracy rate here in Broome County? And do you teach children, young people or adults or everyone? JV: 48:38 I do not teach the children. I teach the teachers. IG: 48:41 You teach the teachers, right. JV: 48:43 What is the illiteracy rate? It is, it is, well, if you think, if you think about the big test that has to be taken in New York State, and you have to pass it, probably, probably about 30 percent of the students are not passing the test. IG: 48:59 Wow. JV: 49:00 Yeah, depending on which grade level or, you know, which test you are in, what you are looking for, but that is the test, you know, there is you could not do well on a test, but still, but still be able to function real well. So right now, what is your definition of illiteracy? You know, it is, it is kind of hard to tell I wish one of the things that we all worry about as teachers is not necessarily students’ inability to read. It is students’ reluctance to read. You know, the motivation social being on social media all the time and not finding joy and rewards of books. You know, as a librarian, you probably worry about as well. IG: 49:46 Yeah, and we have programs, we have literacy both for, I think it is, it is, it is not literacy for reading, but it is literacy in research. In understanding sources in, you know, separating fake news from real news. In technology literacy, so different kinds of literacy that librarians increasingly teach, you know, and that we have, but I will tell you about those programs later. So, you know, I am thinking, you know, we are kind of wrapping up, and I would like to ask you, what are some of the important lessons that you learned from this time in your life at Harpur College? JoV: 50:40 Really, very difficult to- JV: 50:44 We grew up. I do not know if it is a lesson, but we just, you know, I remember my 20th birthday thinking, “Oh, my God, I am an adult now. I am 20. It is, it is different. You know, what am I going to do? Where am I going? What is going on with my life?” But by the time we muddled through, you know, graduation and those first years, okay, I can do this. I can, I can. I am capable. I can. I think, I think one of the things I told you I was not a great student, but I was involved in lots of organizations that taught me an awful lot, you know, that- IG: 51:26 Gave you confidence. IG: 51:27 It is a special ability, getting people to do what needs to be done, and having them enjoy what they are doing. JV: 51:27 Right. JV: 51:27 Gave me confidence, you know, some leadership ability, organizational things, the things you know, my maybe, maybe not my teaching career, but my administrative career. And I was a school administrator for more years than I was a teacher actually. I traced back to-to being on the student center board and figuring out that, you know, we need a contract for the, you know, for the Mitchell Trio guys. And not only do you just sign the contract, but then somebody has to pick them up at the airport, and what are you going to do, you know, all that kind of marshaling people. I was not the leader of it, but understanding, getting to see people do those things, you know, then I could become president of the Alumni Association. JoV: 51:50 I mean, for me, I think it was in a chaotic time that the university held was stability. It kept things. Was something for me to lean on whenever things got really out of kilter, and this was, this is where I knew I could go back to and-and, you know, retain some sanity or in a crazy world. And, you know, it was, it was not necessarily teaching me something. I mean, we have talked about this previously, but, you know, the moment that, like, we could not think beyond I could not think beyond it. And so, you know, that forced me to concentrate on the university as a place where, you know, it was stable. It was a place where I could always rely on and, you know, whatever, whatever came, whatever was to happen in the future. IG: 53:12 It was, it was your escape. It was your sort of, you know, zone. No? JoV: 53:20 It was away from the world [crosstalk] IG: 53:25 The pressures of the David. JoV: 53:29 I mean, we were, when we were here, we were fully involved from dawn till dusk. We were there was classes, athletics, playing cards, meeting with friends. I mean, this university was our life really was and, and I remember the first after the first summer I when I decided to work in the Binghamton area during a break, my parents said, "Well, you are sure you are going to be able to handle it up there, you know, because you, you know you are not going to be home,” Yeah. This is, this is, you know, I felt feel bad. IG: 54:05 It became home. JoV: 54:06 Yeah, exactly. JV: 54:07 It became home for both of us, yeah, where we where I grew up, you know, is, you know, it-it was not home very, very quickly. You know, I did not want to go back to Long Island, you know, not that, not that anything bad happened there, but this was where, this is, this was where I grew up. Yeah, I know I became independent and-and we ended up staying in this area. You know, more from inertia than you know certain circumstance than any you know your major decision that said, “You know, we are going to live in in the Binghamton area.” IG: 54:47 You are drawn to it. JV: 54:49 Yeah. And now, I mean, we, I could not think of any place else I would want to leave. We, as we get older, and our son is moving someplace away, you know, we are always thinking, oh, well, you know, might we really relocate. But nothing is calling us nobody is- we are not sitting here saying, oh, gee, you know we need to go to North Carolina, or we need to go to Florida, or we need to move to Arizona or something like that. We just do not think that. And so, the university is just part of that circle. It is a big, important part of the circle in which we live. IG: 55:18 That is very nice. And, you know, one last question I like to ask. What you know, what advice do you have for a student listening to this interview about, you know, planning their lives and-and about the college experience, and sort of, you know, looking to the future and what, what kind of, you know, what are some important qualities for them to own or develop in their future lives, or answer it any way that you like, that you feel, that you have found. JV: 56:13 I do not know if I this Well, I am now in a position where I am working with students who want to become teachers and administer and school administrators, and it has a real career path to for them, I really feel bad for them that they do not have the opportunity to have the same kind of liberal arts opportunities that we had, but I worry about the issue of student debt. You know, I really, really am concerned. I mean, when people I we had this tiny little they have to take multiple tests and become teachers certified as teacher, and we had these vouchers so that they would not have to pay for these for these tests. And so, we asked students to say, “Why do you deserve this test?” And I just remember one young woman talked about her, you know, $50,000 worth of student debt, and when she when she graduates, she is going to get a job as a teacher, earning $40,000 and, you know, like, what does that mean? We had the luxury. I had a little bit of student debt when I when I graduated, but, but we had the luxury of having our, you know, free tuition, and all you had to do is pay for room and board. And we found an old bill one day, and it was like $400 you know, a semester like- so-so while I want them all to be able to have that, I do not know what I want to be. I am just going to take all the courses I possibly can and learn about the world and life and whatever can you really do you really want to take on all that debt as an art history major and start working in Applebee's, you know, like that is what I worry about right now. So, do I have advice? I do not know what I do. JoV: 58:10 But then, you know, people go on the other track, and they say they are so directed, they are so mercenary. I am going to take these courses. It is going to become this pays the most, and this will pay for my entire education. And I sometimes feel they have lost the thrust of why they come here in the first place, if your if your curriculum only includes, you know, those three or four categories that you need, or you think you need for your job, because it is going to look great. Well, that is wonderful for your job, but you know, as a human being, you may fall short, but you know, if you want that human experience education, that is a big bill to pay, and obviously you have to balance the two, and I would not want to be in a position to make those decisions. It is just too catastrophic, like Jackie said, you come out of here with, you know, way too much debt that will burn you and taint your whole life thereafter. So, I am not sure what I would advise I would give them, but to think, you know deep and long about where do you want to go, and it is a hard decision to make, but people today have the luxury of time. They do not. They have a gap year. They have two gap years, you know, start at the local community college. The transfer in is, you know, be a little more mature. I mean, we, we did not have that opportunity. I did not have that opportunity, you know, I was 18. You are going to college, end of story, you know. Well, maybe I was not quite ready, I think, well, maybe I was not and I should have taken some time. JV: 59:47 Yeah, fine, I guess and part of my profession says that we are all lifelong learners, so just realize that college is not the end that you should be. You know, you should continue to whatever your career choice is, understand that you are not done. IG: 1:00:06 That is that is very good advice. I agree wholeheartedly. Any concluding remarks, JV: 1:00:13 No, I would be interesting to read some of the other comments. JoV: 1:00:16 I think you have gotten all you can out of these two old bodies. [laughter] IG: 1:00:21 Thank you. It is very interesting and very enjoyable. Thank you. JV: 1:00:26 You are welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jackie and John Visser Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visser, Jackie ; Visser, John ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jackie and John Visser.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-11-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:28 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d78660e106c158e4677b1335904c681.mp3 a1c66cda7c27cb68c746094311a883d8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3fec555f5ee8721334015f122f43b07.jpeg ceb7ee983e3d97f9e7de2dee15cb7031 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-11-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jesse Masyr Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Partner at Fox Rothschild in New York. He specializes in real estate law and is responsible for bringing legislation that permitted sidewalk cafes to Manhattan. Prior to joining the firm, Jesse was the founder of the Land Use Department and a named partner in the law firm of Wachtel Masyr & Missry LLP. He also previously served as Deputy Borough President of Manhattan, where for five years he represented the Borough President on the Board of Estimate. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Jesse Masyr Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 November 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JM: 00:03 My name is Jesse Masyr. We are currently in my law firm in midtown Manhattan at 101 Park Avenue, and apparently, we are going to attempt to extract, well, the memories I have left. IG: 00:20 Very good. And so, you graduated- JM: 00:24 I graduated in 1971, and I enrolled in 1967 so I was in the four-year program. IG: 00:34 So, tell us a little bit about your growing up. So where did you grow up? JM: 00:41 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. I was born in Brooklyn. I grew up in Brooklyn, and it was actually my intention to be educated in Brooklyn, but my parents felt strongly otherwise, and that is how I sort of wind up at Harpur College. Was not my desire. I really wanted to go to school in New York City at the time. To me, everybody I knew was going either to Brooklyn College or to Queens College and but my parents felt that my parents are first generation Americans, and they were sort of very liberal, but they were but they had come about, and the McCarthy era had really scarred them in a sense that they thought my radicalization at that time would somehow go on my permanent record, and I would, I was, I was involved in 1965 particularly with something called the New York City's high school Students for peace. And they thought that that would put an anvil around me. So, my father said to me, "No, you are not going to school in New York." And so that is that is why, to me, SUNY was an inferior brand to CUNY, and not knowing anything about SUNY, had helped out to make that judgment, by the way, and that that is how I wind up in Binghamton, because I did not want to go there. IG: 02:05 So, there was an element of fear ruling your- JM: 02:10 Yeah, my parents, my parents really felt that, you know that it would be go on my record, and at some time later on, when I was looking to join the professional ranks of the world, somebody will remember the hardest it is to imagine that in 1965 I was part of a number of peace demonstrations and walk outs and demonstrations against the Marines, all kinds of embarrassing things that I did as a youth. IG: 02:35 Where did you go to high school? JM: 02:39 Lafayette High School, which does not exist anymore. They closed it because it was, it was a substandard school when I went to it, and it got worse as the years went on. IG: 02:55 What were your-your parent’s expectations? JM: 02:59 Very simple. The you-you had you had a choice. Growing up in my family, you could become a doctor or a lawyer, and I failed at becoming a doctor, and therefore I defaulted in becoming a lawyer. My brother was successful. IG: 03:14 He is a doctor. JM: 03:16 Well, I do not think so. He is an oral surgeon, so they never counted to me, but, but he did go to Columbia Physicians and Surgeons for his dental degree. So that was winning. The odd thing is, my brother's five years older than I am, and he was still living at home, going to at that time, he was actually going to pharmacy school before he went to dental school, it was okay for him to go to school in New York because he was never political. Had no interest in anything of that nature, and so I did, and my parents said, you are out. So, it was weird that my brother was still there. But I have often said "My brother was an only child." IG: 03:52 [laughs] So they-they had the idea of Harpur College or? JM: 04:02 No, they- IG: 04:03 How did you come upon? JM: 04:04 Well, because my parents, I was in a lower middle-class family, so I was not going to be able to go to a private school. And so, the other thing to me was, was just state school, and I did all the research myself. So, it to me, it was the choices, not doing a lot of research, was either I was going to go to either Stony Brook, Albany or Binghamton. Buffalo, I never would have considered because it is in another country, as far as I could tell, and I did not want to go to Stony Brook. It was Long Island, and I had enough experience with kids from Long Island not realizing they were all going to Harpur. When I got to Harpur, I had complete culture shock, because I thought Binghamton, I would be meeting people, basically, who were more intimate with cows than anything else. And then I realized it was a New York City Long Island School. IG: 04:05 Yes. JM: 04:07 Although nobody from my high school went there, but virtually no one from my high school went to college. So, it was not the real issue. IG: 05:08 So, what was the reputation? You really did not have too much to go on if you thought it was a cow school. JM: 05:15 Yeah, I thought it was a cow school. I really did. IG: 05:17 So-so when you arrived. And so did you have an idea that you would want to be a lawyer when you- JM: 05:24 No-no, I know- no, because there really was not- the lawyer was sort of the failure. You were going to be a doctor because I was Jewish and that there was no other alternative, you know, that, or a rabbi. And I had gotten that. That had passed when I was 13. I did not do that anymore, and so I took two years of science. I was a science major my first two years, and by the end of my second year, I think I was on academic suspension or threatening suspension. I was I was a failure in science. I was complete, and I changed majors and graduated with a history degree and a GPA low well enough to get me into law school. I basically aced the last two years, but the last two years, it is interesting that you mentioned, it is 1970 1971 and there was a lot of disruption in the school at that point. 1970 in the spring semester, is Kent State. And the school shut down. And then in 19- in my senior year, I was involved in something called the college volunteer program to combat drug abuse, and was a founder of something I do not know if it still exists at Binghamton, called High Hopes, which was which was a drug. It was a crash pad, as far as I can tell. But at that in 1970 before he went totally [inaudible] crazy, Nelson Rockefeller was going to cure everybody before he decided in 1971 to put everybody in jail forever. And so, he funded something called the college volunteer program to combat drug abuse, and funded each of the universities, and I became one of the initial directors and founders, of which we named High Hope sarcastically, and set up the drug clinic, and then spent my life that my senior year, going around Broome County talking about the evils of drugs, which was about as ironic and sarcastic. IG: 07:33 So, what was this program? What did it promote? Was it abstinence? JM: 07:39 No-no-no, we drugs were still good then. IG: 07:44 Yeah. JM: 07:44 I mean, and it was really about people having bad LSD trips. IG: 07:50 Right. JM: 07:50 And so, we were behind. I do not even know if these structures, I have been back to school. Four years ago, there was a post office building near Student Center, and the back of that was given to us as basically a place where people were having a problem with the drugs, they took that we could sort of walk them through that and calm them down. IG: 08:13 So, you, but you, it was not like a methadone [crosstalk] JM: 08:16 No-no-no-no. We did not. We did not. That was not really- IG: 08:20 Medicinal. JM: 08:21 -a real problem that was, you know, in 1970 it was more about people taking Angel Dust and people taking LSD and then going, it was hard to get mushrooms, very hard. We could talk about that. It was always rumored that somebody had them. But it never was. They always had LSD, because it was very available, because the it was a real, able source near Binghamton for LSD, which was Cornell. Cornell graduate chemistry students were in the manufacturing business in the (19)70s, (19)60s and (19)70s. IG: 08:59 I am awestruck. That is related. JM: 09:05 That is why I made the reference to you better [crosstalk] yes. IG: 09:08 So- JM: 09:11 That is why there is such a great, famous, Grateful Dead concert that occurs- JM: 09:15 Yes JM: 09:16 -at Binghamton at that point. JM: 09:17 Yeah- IG: 09:17 In in 1968 or- IG: 09:17 Yeah, 1960 JM: 09:22 No. IG: 09:22 No? JM: 09:23 No. It was later. It was later. The famous Dick's picks concert, I think, is (19)70. IG: 09:30 I see. So, what was the apart from, you know, this kind of, I do not know. What was it, an anti-drug, drug culture, what were some of the topics of conversation among your friends and yourself? What-what did you I mean, apart from- JM: 09:57 Well, I mean- IG: 09:58 -the usual, you know, dating, what- JM: 10:00 Well- IG: 10:00 What are the political sort of you know- JM: 10:03 There was that huge cloud hanging over all of us, because all of us were now living under the yoke of that that our student deferments from the draft would expire upon graduation and going to graduate school, with the exception of going to medical school, you would lose your exemption. And so, the Vietnam War was hung over most of discussions, because it was not, it was not popular, as they make the hope that does not come as too much of a surprise. And so, remember this Kent State, so I was very political at the time. I do not think the school was very political. IG: 10:46 Really? JM: 10:47 I did not sense that. I mean, there were a lot of people there who were what I would call straight and were not involved in that, were not involved in the drug culture not involved in the anti-war movement at all. Kent State, I thought was-was surprising that galvanized the students to strike, although, if history, if I remember, by the time the students decided to strike, the faculty had already shut the school in protest. So, the faculty was probably more radical than the student body was. IG: 11:24 What you know- JM: 11:28 And (19)68 remember also is the year that a lot of us went and worked for Gene McCarthy. IG: 11:34 I did not know that. JM: 11:35 Yes, and it was to my parents love and joy. I actually cut off my hair in the famous go clean for Gene movement. IG: 11:47 That must have pleased them. JM: 11:49 Momentarily. IG: 11:50 Momentarily. How did you, I mean, how did you, you know, find that opportunity to work for Gene McCarthy? Is that something that I mean, you just said New Yorker, you probably- JM: 11:56 No-no. It was somebody on campus who was, who I remember, I think, who I know is no longer alive, who was politically active and much more attuned to being anti-war, and it was really an anti-Lyndon Johnson sentiment more than anything else, and enlisted a lot of us as volunteers to go work for Gene McCarthy. And I do remember the great celebration the night that Lyndon Johnson announced he was not running for reelection. It was an instant partner. IG: 12:40 Right. So, I mean, what was your platform? I mean, what was a platform that you supported essentially anti-war and- JM: 12:49 Not sending me to Vietnam? was my platform. I mean, I was, it was one of complete self-interest. IG: 12:57 But do you think that there was sort of, you know, pervasive era of anxiety that many of the male students experienced. JM: 13:09 I think there was, for a lot of reasons, there was anxiety. I think there was a feeling that the youth, our youth, was seen as threatening to social structure, that lot of people saw us as an enemy, in essence, disrespectful, disruptive. And I do remember—it is funny what memories you have, and maybe they get manufactured. But I do remember when-when Kent State occurred walking through the Student Center, and the song that was blasting over and over and over again was Jefferson airplanes, Volunteers of America, and we are all outlaws in the eyes of America. And I think that was a feeling that a lot of us, I certainly had, that feeling that we were seen as disrupting the social fabric that our parents and had sort of instructed us to obey, and we were being disobedient, and the rallies and the anti-war movement, the demonstration in Washington against the Pentagon. I mean, I think those were seen as us versus them kind of events. IG: 14:35 So it was, you know, a rebellion against your parents, you know ideals or value expectations. JM: 14:45 Not so much their ideals, but their but their social structure, their standards. This is how you behave, and you do not stick your head up that much above the fence post, because you make it slap down. IG: 14:58 That is. Very much an immigrant mentality. JM: 15:02 No, I understand you remember, they are first generation, and they are from, they are Jewish, and everybody who did not come over got exterminated. And so, there is sort of that I understood that growing up, and I grew up in a hard to believe in Orthodox Jewish community, and I did not. I really perceived that being Jewish began with the Holocaust. There was no history before the Holocaust. That is all I heard about; all I was taught about it. It permeated everything, including expectations of what your future could be. IG: 15:40 Right, and that and that, you know, that probably felt at some point as a burden as well. JM: 15:48 No question about it. IG: 15:49 Um, so you know what was the new order that you were hoping to bring about? JM: 15:58 You are giving us way more credit than we would ever have deserved. I do not think there was that I least could not articulate at that time, and I do not remember anybody articulating to me an alternative solution, other than Lyndon Johnson should not be president. I do not think there was I certainly as I evolved later on. But I do not think there was an anti-Nixon feeling before. It was just got Lyndon Johnson out of office. He was killing us. He was doing this war that was just taking us away and slaughtering us. IG: 16:35 So, you just wanted to be kind of unshackled from these figures and from your parental, you know, expectations, but you did not really, I mean, you did not sort of, you know, see what a future would be like. JM: 16:56 Certainly, was not that skilled or motivated, [crosstalk] to have those expectations, I mean. And frankly, the last thing, if I was given a list of things to check off, the last thing I would have been able to check off that I was going to be a lawyer really caught me by surprise. IG: 17:18 Before we talk about that. Who were some of the faculty that made an impression on you? Was there anybody who really stood out in your memory and then kind of determined you to- JM: 17:37 I cannot say that. I do call one history professor that I thought was one of the most brilliant people I had ever met. His name, his name was Africa [Thomas W. Africa]. He was an ancient history professor. But that is really do not have much more recollection than that. IG: 17:57 So, you do not, you know, you do not remember that your academics kind of really opened your eyes to seeing the world in a different way. JM: 18:06 No. [crosstalk] It was purely the social I grew up in, this sort of Brooklyn essence came up there and was extremely liberated, because I was first time, I did not have parental control, and I was with other people who similarly felt that way. And so, it was clearly the socialization that that molded changed me more than the academics. No, plus the fact I was not really particularly great at academics or science, for sure. IG: 18:41 But you became great at academics. JM: 18:44 I became great at succeeding at academics. IG: 18:47 I see. JM: 18:47 I think, I think there is a difference. IG: 18:50 There is a difference, there is a difference. There is a difference. But so, have you kept in touch with any of your fellow students? JM: 19:03 Only by coincidence. IG: 19:04 By coincidence. JM: 19:05 Yeah, that we sort of met later on, did not keep did not keep continual touch, and then somehow, professionally or socially, “You went to Harpur?" "Yes-yes, yeah." Do not even remember them and being at Harpur at the time I was at Harpur. They were not in the social scene I was in. So, I do have friends that are from Harpur in the same time I was there, but they were not friends of mine when I was at Harpur. And those people that I am was friendly with, unfortunately, are not alive. I was very friendly, extremely friendly with a guy who-who unfortunately has the same answer, the same ending, to the people I was to the people I was closest to. Both died from drug related deaths. One, his name was Rick Juan, who unfortunately made the Today Show, because right after graduation, literally right after graduation, he got on a plane, went to Amsterdam, and within 24 hours, had died of an overdose of heroin. And then the other was. The name was Alan Goldstein, who became a doctor, a surgeon, but had a lifelong addiction problem, and ultimately died of liver disease that was created by his lifelong drug addiction. And he had he was a drug addict while he was a doctor, which shows you how brilliant he must have been. IG: 20:39 No, well, I mean, it is an addiction. It is a disease. JM: 20:43 Then he had had a terrible car accident one night after leaving the hospital, because he was drugged up and got-got really badly hurt. And I think that ultimately was the cause, the predicate cause, of his death. So, the two people I were closest to no longer alive. IG: 21:04 Do you think the drug use back then was different than you know, people knew less probably about addiction? JM: 21:20 I think, I think I had a pretty I think I had a pretty good- IG: 21:23 No? JM: 21:24 No. I think I had a pretty good idea of the level of drugs that were being used at the time I was going to school, and I do not recall the heavy, dangerous drugs being used. There was a lot of not marijuana, believe it or not, there was a lot of hash. I never really understood that, but it was a hash school, and there was a lot of hallucinogenic. There- people were not going around with lots of barbiturates or heroin. There always is heroin, but it was not prevalent. And to the extent that there were amphetamines, they were more obviously, more valuable around finals than at any other time. IG: 22:16 I assume that they are still JM: 22:18 And-and people those days remember, amphetamines where-where you could get them legally. So, everyone was stealing their mother's extra drill and, you know, bringing it up to school. But I did not perceive drugs at that time to be there were- no opiates were not prevalent. There was the beginning of the synthetic drugs that were coming on the-the Angel Dust, the MDA, which was fucking people up quite-quite much, but it was just beginning. It was not as prevalent. IG: 22:55 when you know, did people talk about Timothy Leary, yeah. Were you interested in that kind of mind, expensiveness-? JM: 23:05 Very-very much- IG: 23:07 -experience. JM: 23:08 Very much so in 1969. No, the summer of 1970--Alan and Rick and myself went cross country to go out to San Francisco, to track down Owsley, who was the great manufacturer of LSD out in San Francisco. So, yeah, it was something I was, I was interested in. I was, by nature, though, too much of a chicken to ever develop a drug problem, IG: 23:41 Right-right-right. Well, you know, that is, that is very interesting. So, you know, but you, you were not a hippie, and because you aspired to this very kind of establishment, and uh- JM: 24:00 I think I would have wanted to be, yeah, but I could not, because of the, you know, from the time I was five years old, yeah, there was either become a professional or-or you would have to be somehow, put on a boat, set a fire. IG: 24:14 Exactly. JM: 24:16 Yeah. So yeah, I would have loved to be hippie. IG: 24:18 Yeah. You would have loved to yeah too, yeah, because you did not drop out, you just kind of dabbled. JM: 24:24 Yeah. IG: 24:24 Yeah, it was- JM: 24:25 Yeah. IG: 24:26 -dabbled. So how do you think your classmates would remember you from that from the years at Harpur College? JM: 24:39 Annoying. IG: 24:41 How so? JM: 24:47 I just-just use my general reaction. I think I was a little bit pushy, perhaps manipulative. You know, I mean, I manipulated myself into this directorship of this drug clinic as a means. The real reason I became director of drug clinic is it gave me an opportunity to come back to school in August. And at that point, staying at home in my house was intolerable. It was literally intolerable. My parents took one look at me. You know, my hair, which fortunately I had then, as opposed to this thing. But then it grew this way. It did not go that way. I mean, I never got it to be long, but it would go out and out and out, and so that would just drive them crazy. And from an early age, I from the time I was 13 years old, I was living in Greenwich Village. The music had caught me. The folk music era of that time had captured me. IG: 25:48 Where did you listen to? Where did you go? JM: 25:52 I went to you had delicate balance in the village then, because you could only go to a place that did not serve alcohol, because you are underage, significantly underage. So, there was the Gaslight Cafe, which was on McDougall Street, but it was until later that was able to go to the bitter end. And the village van, the Village Gate, which is no longer there. I actually have helped redevelop it so it was there, and it was the cafe walk across the street where you could go to so I could listen to Tom Paxton. I saw Bob Dylan, and I got addicted to that. I mean, I to the point that my father, I think, rightfully, felt like he wanted to kill me. Because how many times can you play that thing over and over and over and over and over again. And so that music really was the changing point for my enlightenment, and listening to Phil Ochs. And then when I was in high school, on the high school paper, I actually my next-door neighbor was an accountant for a guy named Grossman, who was manager of Dylan, Peter, Paul, Mary, number other people. So, he got me interviews with-with performers, Eric Anderson, Philip and I wrote these up for my high school newspaper. So, these were, you know, idols to me, but I was, that is where I was spending all my time. So, my parent’s joke, just really, and my brother was, you know, listening to, you know, 45 rock and roll, and that had no interest to me whatsoever. IG: 27:37 Right. Well, they, were, you know, the really, the- these Balladeers were the voice of change, you know, and, and also of kind of building, not camaraderie. What is this word that I am looking for among the young people, right? They- JM: 28:02 I think it is camaraderie. I think it is a shared purpose, or shared ideal, I mean, and also, really what it was-was a rejection of the status quo. And, you know, the gray flannel road was not, was not the road that you had to take. And they were talking about an alternative, and I was completely hooked on that idea. IG: 28:28 But that alternative was artistic-artistic. It was liberal. It was- JM: 28:35 Yeah, it was liberal, it was political. It was rejecting the past, that the norms of the past are not necessarily in concrete and they do not have to be adhered to. And you can change things. You have that ability, and therefore you do not have to subscribe to, eventually, the life I live, but nonetheless, you have to subscribe to go off and find a job and find your place in society. That is the norm. I say that in all due respect, sitting here in a law firm that I am a major partner in. IG: 29:19 Right-right-right. JM: 29:21 Well, you know, there was a point in my life when I found that you could buy things with money, and so it became somewhat more important. IG: 29:25 So, did that? You know, when did that point come? JM: 29:30 After law school. IG: 29:31 After Where did you go to law school? JM: 29:35 I went to law school Tulane in New Orleans. And so, you may ask, why does a nice Jewish boy who was, who was dumb enough to go to school in Binghamton, where the sun never shines, go to where the sun, unfortunately never, not does not shine. And- IG: 29:51 Maybe that is the reason. JM: 29:52 No that was not the reason. I went to Tulane to avoid going to the army. It is you- it is a short story, and I will make it as short as possible. As you probably have researched and noticed there was a lottery system, and I had not a particularly good number in the lottery. In fact, in May, no before May, in April of my last year, I got my letter from Selective Service telling me that I was about to be reclassified and I was going to be drafted, and I will save you all the details, unless you want them. The reason I picked New Orleans is new the way the draft worked was that every draft board had a number of people that had to supply. If your number, was you had to take a simple example. You had to supply 100 people. If 100 people enlisted, nobody got drafted out of that draft board, “Okay,” so I had done extensive research on how I was not going to go to the to the army, and Louisiana had a process which was subsequently declared illegal, but fortunately not at the time that first time, felony offenders in New Orleans were given the choice of enjoying the hospitality of the Louisiana penal system or enlisting. So, by the time I got down to New Orleans, I had already been drafted. I kept on bouncing them back and forth saying, I am in Binghamton. I was drafted out of Brooklyn. Oh, we will send it up to Binghamton. When I got to Binghamton, I was already back in New York, and send it back to New York. And then eventually I went down to New Orleans. I went to register you had to go when you changed jurisdiction, at the draft board. And I remember having all my documents because I had a second way I was going to get out of the draft if the first way did not work. And I went to register it in Louisiana and New Orleans at the draft board. And I think my number was 110 and the guy looked at me and he said, "Get out of here." Would not even take me said "Get out of here. We are not going to get to 60," and that is why [crosstalk] I had no [crosstalk] IG: 31:55 How did you feel? How did you feel when he said- JM: 31:58 I felt ecstatic because I did not have to use my backup, which was I also worked on extensively to have a backup. IG: 32:06 Which is a backup? JM: 32:07 There was a, there was a great doctor in New York called Alan Sorrell--long gone, who was a specialist, an allergist, a specialist in inducing asthma attacks to get you not out of the draft, but it would get you a deferment for six months. And so, he was able to induce in me a series of asthma attacks that I had to get certified by a hospital because they knew Sorrell was a no-good nick. IG: 32:35 How do you induce an asthma attack? JM: 32:37 He- I guess the same way in theory, how you build up resistance to an allergen. But he did it in the opposite. He broke down my resistance. And ultimately what he had determined I was most allergic to was cat dander. And if you are allergic to cat dander, you are particularly allergic to kittens who produce more dander. And so, he I do not through a series of shots. I have never asked him, never asked him why. He then said to me, I think you are ready. "Come in next Thursday." I came in next Thursday, and he had two Persian kitten, Persian kittens, and he locked me in the closet with the two kittens. And it was like when these senior once is opening up “You okay." I could feel myself drowning, literally drowning, and then when I could barely breathe, he said- he was on 30th and Second Avenue, and NYU hospital right across the street. He said, "Okay, you are ready go to the emergency room." And that is so I had my asthma attack. IG: 33:35 I see, I see, but it was temporary- JM: 33:37 Yeah. IG: 33:38 Any- JM: 33:39 Yeah. IG: 33:39 -lasting- JM: 33:40 But that is how I went too late. I had no expectation; I was going to be able to succeed at law school. Because I thought law school was going to be hard, and little did I know law school was at an intellectual level for me, at least of what I would call junior high school. IG: 33:58 Really? JM: 33:59 College was much, was much tougher to get through the courses at Binghamton than it was at law school. Law school was purely regurgitation. You just read it vomited right back at them. And, “Wow, you are brilliant." IG: 34:13 Right-right. And so, you did this right after college. JM: 34:16 I went directly I was- started too late in 1971 and graduated in (19)74. IG: 34:24 Your brother was no longer of draft age. JM: 34:27 Oh no, he was in medical school. He was dental school--got you, got you an exemption. IG: 34:34 Right-right-right-right. Did you share your strategy for avoiding the draft with any of your friends? JM: 34:42 Yes. IG: 34:43 Good. JM: 34:44 All of them. IG: 34:45 All of them. JM: 34:45 This was a team effort. I mean, everybody had a thing they were doing to get out of the track. Some of the people I remember going to school with went to dental school, although they did not really want to, because that was some. Went to podiatry school, which apparently got you eligible for not going to the draft. Those things did not really appeal to me. IG: 35:11 What you know, what role did- what were your I do not know women. They were part of, certainly your, you know, you know, rebellious, rebel, student rebellion. But how did you? Did you during that period when you know you wanted to see the world differently, and did you look at women differently? I mean, did you your expectations of what their role was, or did you still look at women and think, "Well, you know, this is going to be a girlfriend, and then eventually a wife or a partner?" JM: 35:54 Yeah. IG: 35:54 And then- JM: 35:55 I did not have- IG: 35:56 You did not have. JM: 35:57 -very progressive new vision of what women were. IG: 36:01 What- I had not asked you before, what did your parents do? JM: 36:06 My father was in the garment manufacturing business. My mother was a bookkeeper. IG: 36:12 I see. JM: 36:12 My father was sick my entire life. He had as a young child, develop scarlet fever before the invention of penicillin, and in those days, it could kill you, and if it did not kill you, it scarred your heart muscle. So, he had heart disease the entire time I knew him. He died at a very early age of congestive heart failure, just right after I graduated law school, he died. IG: 36:40 but he got to see you a lawyer. JM: 36:43 Not really by the time, by the time I came back to New York, which was a year after graduating law school, I disappeared for a year after graduating law school, because the idea of being a lawyer had no appeal to me whatsoever. I mean, I have to caution you by telling you-you have not asked me what I do as a lawyer. IG: 36:44 Oh, I have not [crosstalk] JM: 36:54 I was extremely, very different kind of practice, and I am one of those few lawyers you will ever meet who actually loves what he does. It is to me, it is a, it is a hoot, what I do for a living, and cannot believe I get paid to do it a lot of money too. But I did not want to be a lawyer after I graduated from law school, so I went to Europe for a year. JM: 37:30 Oh, where did you go? JM: 37:39 Mostly throughout France, and then stayed in Spain for about seven months, at a time when it was extremely cheap and Franco was still in charge of Spain, and so being an American was hardship. IG: 37:56 Yeah-yeah. This was in the mid– (19)70s. JM: 37:59 1974. I was- I only regret that I was in Paris when Nixon resigned. I think I would have enjoyed seeing that here, but I spent 1974 in Europe and came back in (19)75 and by that time, my father was really about to die. He was months away from death, and so he could not attend my swear. To my amazement, to my utter shock and amazement, I had passed the bar exam. I mean, I took the bar exam and figured this was bullshit. I was not passing this, and somehow, I passed it, and so I came back, got it, got admitted, which is a cute story, but and then my father was too ill to attend my swearing in, into the bar, and they never saw any of the early success I had, which I had a remarkable early success at the age of 29. IG: 39:00 What was a remarkable- I am so sorry? JM: 39:05 I was, I was appointed deputy borough president of Manhattan at age of 29 which was, and still is, the youngest person ever in the history city to be appointed to that position. And when I left it in 1983 at the age of 33 to this day, nobody, even at the age of 33 has ever been appointed to that position. IG: 39:26 What did you do in that position? What did it entail? JM: 39:29 The city of New York, back until 1986 was governed by a body called the board of estimate, which was made up of the five borough presidents, one from each borough. The mayor, the controller, is something called the City Council President, which does not exist anymore, and they govern the city of New York. The City Council of the City of New York had no authority at all, and so I represented the borough president on the board of estimate. He never went in all the years I was there, he never showed up once the principals did not really show up. It was run by staff, and so I was essentially the governing power of New York at the age of 29. IG: 40:09 What kind of decisions did you make? JM: 40:10 We decided all land use matters and all contracts, all land use matters development in the city, and all contracts greater than $10,000. We met every other Thursday in public session. We would start at 10am and it would run to about three o'clock in the morning. In 1986 the United States Supreme Court ruled the board of estimates unconstitutional because the borough president of Brooklyn had as much had the same vote as the borough president of Staten Island, despite having five times the population, and that violated the one person one vote law, and so the board was declared unconstitutional--was abolished, abolished 1986 but from 1979 to 1983 I sat on the board. IG: 40:58 What kind of things did you accomplish? JM: 41:02 We changed a lot about the way Manhattan is developed. We shifted development from the east side to the west side, part of recapturing 42nd street Times Square area from the sewer. It had become - And this was also a very heavy time, because New York had was emerging out of its bankruptcy. And so, it was coming back alive. And the it was just to be in that position at that time, was by grace. IG: 41:38 You loved it. It was- IG: 41:40 Right. JM: 41:40 And it is- IG: 41:40 Because New York City is so dynamic. JM: 41:40 And, yeah, and when you do it at my level, you are you have the great ego satisfaction of carving into the city of New York so I can show my fingerprints, which is kind of egocentric. JM: 41:40 It was fantastic. The only problem is, the person I worked for was a complete lunatic, and I needed to leave. I mean, the idea that I left, it was people, "What do you mean? You are leaving this job." I mean, the reason I have a beard, by the way, yeah, is I was 29 years old, and I had 109 or 113 staff, of which all but three were older than me. So, I needed to look older quicker. So, I grew a beard, which I kept. I left because I could not take the craziness any longer. He was just he was so irresponsible, and he had wanted nothing to do with the job. He loved running for office. He hated serving in office. Running is fun. Serving is-is not fun. I mean, actually, doing the job is work. And he did not come from the world of work. He came from the world of campaigning. And so, after a while, I just could not take it any longer. And this was just I wanted enough of it. But by that time, I had learned something which, because I had voice, I had not practiced law yet. It was 10 years after law school. I still had not been a lawyer, and I was a political hack and but I had learned the development world and the land use world of New York, and where I sit here today is one of the more prominent land use attorneys in New York City. So, buildings, shopping centers, apartment houses, radical changes in the infrastructure of the city I am a part of. And to me, I come to work every day, and I know what I am doing to do today is not what I am going to do yesterday, and it will not be what I am doing tomorrow. JM: 42:07 Wonderful. JM: 42:10 Yeah- IG: 43:35 It is wonderful. JM: 43:38 And- IG: 43:39 Have you- I am just curious, have you met Trump? And uh- JM: 43:43 I know I am in Donald, if you do the research, I am in Donald's first biography. IG: 43:48 Oh wow. JM: 43:48 I knew Donald well in the- when I was when I was the deputy borough president, because at the time, he was in a war with the Leona Helmsley, and we were also, now you have gone on this road. [crosstalk] You may end this, but my boss's father, lawyer, and confidant, and who I got to know fairly well was somebody I am sure you have never heard of Roy Cohn, so we knew Roy really well, and I spent a lot of time in Roy's office. As a result of that, Donald was Roy's client also. So, while we were never friends with the Helmsleys, we were by nature friendly with Donald. And when Donald tried to build a convention center on the west side for freak on the condition to be named after him, we were advocates of Donald's. And when he got into his spat with Leona, we sort of came out on his side. I. And then, when I eventually became a land use lawyer, I just recently had met up with a former associate of mine who worked for me at the time, and we remembered the story. We spent two and a half hours in Donald's office. He called me up one day because he knew me and I knew him. He said, "Come over the office. I want to hire you." In fact, he had no intention hiring me. He was, he was having a fee dispute on how surprising with his lifelong lawyer, and so he wanted to sort of let the word go out that he was maybe going to move his business to me. And we spent two and a half hours in his office, which I remember, we talked Deborah and I, who was my, she was my urban planner then; we talked about it, that we had the same memory, that it was an office filled with photographs of him, and he showed off to us for two and a half hours. Now, I am nobody, you know, we are two hairdressers that show up and wait a minute, I have to call Kathie Lee, because she just gave birth, and apparently, she had just given birth and in front of us, he was doing this, and I remember vividly, so now send me a retainer. I am going to build the world's largest building in downtown on the waterfront. There was a site called two bridges that the city was actually thinking of developing at the time. And I remember going down the infamous escalator in Trump Tower, and my associate turned to me and said, I will never forget she looked at me, said, "Not for you." And so, we never sent him the retainer, and that was probably the last time I spoke to him, because he called me up about a week later. He said, "Where is the retainer?" He said, "Retainer." I said, "I am sorry. I will get it out to you immediately." I lied, and that is last time I spoke to Donald. IG: 46:43 What do you I mean, that is really fascinating? I did not know this about your professional background. What do you think are, you know the qualities that owe to your great success? You know what-what is it a predisposition? Is it an ability to I mean, you have demonstrated this by how you found an out from the draft, um- JM: 47:19 Doing development in New York is difficult because it is supposed to be it should not be easy. I think I have an ability to do two things. One, I can see the finish line and figure out how to get there, how to how to navigate through the process, and the key to this is try to convince people that they want what you are suggesting and you want because nobody really wants change. IG: 47:56 I mean, how do you do that? How do you how do you convince people that they want what you are suggesting. JM: 48:03 Well, I mean, the first is an inherent idea in New York that we will constantly evolve and it could be worse. So, I am providing you something that could be better, and try to position that there is merit in what you are doing. And part of it, by the way, what is essential in, it is actually believing it. I do believe that it is better to do what I am proposing than not, that we are creating jobs. We create a place where people live. New York is not some Jeffersonian area where there be agriculture. We are a center of commerce, and we all have an opportunity here because of the commerce. And if you kill that, you there is no quality-of-life reason to live in New York. It is dirty, it is noisy, it is you go to sleep at night and you could read in your room without turning on the lights. There is so much ambient light here. IG: 48:59 Right-right-right. JM: 49:00 So, the only reason to be here, it is a place to-to be able to create enough economics to-to be able to support your life. And I think what I do furthers that, that ball, and all the years I was at deputy borough president, my position always was that, you know, that change, if managed correctly, is more beneficial than not that the that the alternative is not successful, and as God would only do because the Old Testament, God is one mean bastard. The irony of it is that hoisted on my own petard, that is how I met my-my wife of 37 years. IG: 49:52 How do you meet her? JM: 49:54 So, it was 1979; we were crawling out of the morass. We were still, we were still a punch line on Johnny Carson, you know the muggings. JM: 50:08 And you were, you were already working on- JM: 50:10 I am the deputy board president. IG: 50:15 You were already working. JM: 50:15 And-and one of the things that I was a big supporter of, and convinced my boss to be a big supporter of, which is going to sound crazy to you, was what was just beginning with sidewalk cafes and restaurants as a way of bringing people back to the street and increasing commerce. IG: 50:28 It is priceless. Yeah. JM: 50:29 And so, and we were, and I convinced him, and he even pay attention to shit. So, I was a huge supporter of sidewalk cafes, which was now becoming hard to tell you this controversial, because it was creating noise at night, which I thought was great and so but I basically had to screw you. This is how we come back from the morass. My boss, at that time, had a friendly relationship with a publisher named Ed Down, publisher McCall's magazine. He would visit him from time to time to pick up whatever you want to think he picked up. And like in every important man's office, the most important person is not the man, but his secretary, who was ever the gatekeeper is it turned out the secretary lived on West 69th Street on the west side, and she said to my boss, one day, "There is a terrible thing. There was a restaurant on the corner of 69th in Columbus called the Red Baron, and this bastard has an application for a sidewalk cafe, which will destroy life as we know it. So, can you kill it? Because we had the authority to kill it?" It was up to us. And so, he came back to see me, came back to the office. River dropping. And he said, was this cafe 69 she got to kill it, right? And I said, I asked them why? And he tells me “Head Down-Secretary, "Kill it. Kill it. Kid," I said to him, "Let us have some fun." The people on the Upper West Side did not vote for us. We, they were they. We got slaughtered upper west. I said, "Why do not we just fuck with them?" He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "The 69th Street block association is probably one of the strongest block associations. Why do not we go meet with them and we will play good cop, bad cop in front of them. You be sympathetic, and I will tell them what assholes they are." And he said, "That would never work." I said, "It is going to work". So, we go up there. They have 50 people. 50 people over a fucking sidewalk cafe. We come in there and Andrew, my boss, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, asked the question, which turned out to be brilliant. He said, "By a showing of hands, how many people here were born in New York?" There were two hands, Andrew and mine, right? So, this is the last one, and closed the door society, and they start to explain how this intrusion into the side street will just destroy life as we know it on Earth. And I go at them. I am very confrontational with that. And you people just the I mean, you all moved here. I mean, you destroyed it. On and on. We leave. Not to be surprising, on the Upper West Side, in a block Association, there is so many lawyers and so many psychiatrists. The psychiatrists decide that the borough president himself is a wonderful man. That short prick is the problem. Got to deal with the short prick. And they assign the Vice President to the block association to go lobby me, the woman who will become my wife. IG: 53:30 Oh! JM: 53:31 And I am as arrogant a prick as you are going to find. Get away from me. She keeps she comes see me. I think she is very attractive, obviously, I think she still is, and I am as cruel as humanly possible, because I know I am going to have to vote for them. I am going to have to do this because he is because they go back and report to the secretary. Next time he comes up to his office, she is her heads exploding. He comes back to me, goes, "What are you doing? [crosstalk] Stop it." "We will be fine. It will all be okay." And that is how I meet my wife. She comes to fight city hall, and eventually there, there is flirtation and there is friction, and then the night of the vote to every to her shock and surprise, it is like you son of a bitch, you did this to me this entire time, and from that date of the vote, we then were never apart afterwards, we got married a year later. IG: 54:37 So, tell me a little bit about her where, what was her background? Did she- JM: 54:42 She was- IG: 54:42 New Yorkers? JM: 54:43 Well, she was one of the people the room. She could not raise her hand. She was born on Long Island out near Suffolk County, and came to New York to find her way. She was in the catering business. IG: 54:56 I see. JM: 54:57 And she was struggling. IG: 54:58 Yeah. JM: 55:00 But she was having a great time living on the Upper West Side with all the other communists, Trotskyites, [inaudible] types, and she became very active in her Block Association, and that is who she was. And she had not been married. I had been married to a Harpur College, someone I met at Harpur. IG: 55:24 I did not know. Well, of course, I mean, I did not ask, I did not ask. JM: 55:28 She was a year behind me. We got married for no reason whatsoever, other than the fact that everyone in our social circle was getting married. IG: 55:42 Really? That is so interesting, because on the one hand, you are social progressives- JM: 55:46 Yeah. But-but- IG: 55:47 Yet you are embracing marriage. And- JM: 55:49 Yeah-yeah, I was- IG: 55:49 -an establishment career eventually- JM: 55:50 A complete one. IG: 55:52 Yeah. JM: 55:53 Complete wimp, and we got married. I have a suspicion that she, like me, never thought we should get married, but it was her family. She had come down to live with me after graduating from New Orleans, started working, helped support me in my last year in law school. And I think her parents were very-very conservative, Orthodox Jews. My current wife is Polish Catholic, and she was under enormous pressure from her parents and all my friends at that point in law school, all the social friends we had were now getting married that year. And everybody got married last year at Tulane. Because, if you were Tulane had, besides being, despite being a somewhat progressive school for southern school, had a particularly sexist point of view about scholarship money. If you were married, it was assumed that your spouse could go earn living, and therefore you were not entitled to any financial support, even if the woman you were marrying was a Tulane student, and so everybody got married in October, because financial aid had been set in September. And so similarly, we got married like everybody else in October. And six years later, we separated in New York after she graduated law school. IG: 57:21 You had seen each other through law school and well, beginnings of your career. JM: 57:26 Well, I did not so much see her through law school, as much as that was my justification that I could leave this relationship, that she had helped me through law school. So, I supported her through law school, and then got her a job by extortion of the using my authority I was still, I was deputy royal president when I was married to her, and I was divorced for about an hour and a half, and I was able to use my-my power to force the law department to hire which did not last, and she actually did not want to be a lawyer. IG: 58:11 What kind of cases are you- JM: 58:13 I am good on time. IG: 58:15 Okay, what kind of cases are you working on now? What are some of the- JM: 58:20 Okay. You want me to show up? IG: 58:21 Yes. JM: 58:24 Really, viciously honest. Probably the case of most visibility. I am going to tell you things you can all Google it. So that is-is something called Industry City, which is 30 acres of industrial property in the waterfront in Brooklyn, which is part of what we call the innovation economy, as artisanal manufacturing is flourishing in New York. And we are really the incubator there, and we are changing the land use there. To give you five seconds about American land uses. We are what I would call junkyard zoning. The idea was always to take the dirty uses and put them as far away from the residential uses, and then gradually the uses, the less and less intense, come to merge in the middle. What we have learned is we do not want to live that way anymore in the 21st century, our-our manufacturing is not as dirty as it once was, because we do not do dirty things anymore. In America, we do not manufacture foundries. So-so the idea that you have to separate that from where people live is not the same reason, and now people want to live closer to where they work now. And also, manufacturing is now part of academics. I mean technology, technology schools are, colleges are very much a part of the new innovation economy. And so, the zoning basically says, "Well, if you do heavy manufacturing, you cannot do any of these other uses nearby." And what we are doing at Industry City is saying, for the first time in New York, "No, we are going to change that." We are going to actually be able to bring academics into manufacturing so they can coexist. And so, the guy who is the, you know, the glass blower is our artisanal we are the largest maker of drones is there an Industry City? IG: 1:00:24 Where is industry city? JM: 1:00:26 Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which is along the water. So- IG: 1:00:32 How interesting. And what are the schools involved in this? JM: 1:00:36 Well, we do not have one. IG: 1:00:36 You do not have one. JM: 1:00:36 We do not have one because we are not permitted. So, we believe, so far, the only Mellon has come into New York and gone into the Brooklyn Navy Yard, which is a city owned site. We are privately owned. We are the largest privately owned industrial site in the city. We have had, we have had significant interest from engineering schools, saying, call us when we can do this. So, we think we will be able to bring in as much as 700,000 square feet of academic uses into the manufacturing world. So that is the most interesting thing I am doing now. I am also- IG: 1:01:20 That is fantastic. That is fantastic. JM: 1:01:20 I am representing Brooklyn Hospital, which is the last independent hospital in Brooklyn that has not been swallowed by Mount Sinai or Columbia Presbyterian. And what we are trying to do there is stay independent there. There is a rationale why independent is better than not being independent, because when you become affiliated, it is one shop for everybody. So, we have- we were saying it is part of our propaganda, but we think it is true that we are best able to treat our unique population needs because they are not the same everywhere. Populations predominantly black and brown, and there are certain unique medical issues, but we cannot afford to stay in business, because, frankly, we do not have the wealth that Mount Sinai has and Northwell has. So, we are saying to the city of New York, look, we have this beautiful campus in Fort Greene, right next to Fort Greene Park, which is beautiful park. Let us significantly increase the permitted density on our site, and let us monetize that by selling it to developers, so we will have this pot of money that will allow us to stay alive as an independent institution. So, I have just begun that process. IG: 1:01:22 What do you mean increased density? JM: 1:01:22 In other words, when you own this piece of property in New York, depending on what zoning district you are in, you can build x. So, we are saying, “Let us build x up here, and we can sell this and create our own endowment without any government subsidy of cash.” So, we are doing that in Queens. I am currently working for Kauffman Astoria Studios and rezoning five blocks around them to create in Queens the first mixed use arts district that will include housing. IG: 1:01:22 How fantastic. JM: 1:01:22 I tell you. [crosstalk] And then I do normal shit--apartment houses in Manhattan, which, yeah, I have done, in my opinion, some of the most attractive buildings in New York, and also have been responsible for some of the ugliest things that have ever been built. And I take my daughters around and show them that. IG: 1:01:22 Are they both lawyers? JM: 1:01:22 No, neither one. My-my oldest daughter is a teacher, and my youngest daughter is a hippie. She is living the life that I thought I aspire to, but having seen it, I do not, do not want it, but they were great. They were both happy, and they had, you know, they were fortunate enough not to know what a college loan looked like, and I was never happier than writing tuition checks. I said to both of my kids, go to school for as long as you want. They both went to private schools, the idea they would go to SUNY was they would burn their hair first. So, my older daughter went to Hobart, which is uniquely situated between Rochester and Syracuse, a pit, and my younger daughter went to Hartwick in Oneonta. And then she did not my younger daughter did not go to any graduate school. My older daughter went to Philadelphia School of Fine Arts to get a Master's in Fine Arts and in something that I believe has not been economics since Gutenberg printmaking and. Then, fortunately, she then found what she wanted to do, came back to New York, which pleased us to no end, and went to Fordham to get her master's in education. And as I said, we have said to we always said to our kids, go to school. Not a problem. We will pay tuition and support you to go to school forever and as long as you want. And we always were sad that my younger daughter did not want to go to graduate school and still finding her way. But they both live in New York. IG: 1:01:22 That is- you are very lucky. JM: 1:02:05 Yeah, I am very lucky, but except for one thing, which I am extremely lucky about. So, in 1992 I was diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer. I had developed a stuffed nose, and I went to see an ear, nose and throat doctor who looked up my beak, and he said, you have a polyp that is huge. And he said, we have to cut it out. And at that time, I was doing this was land use lawyer, and I said, I cannot do it. Next week. I have a hearing. He said, "Not a problem. It is a polyp. It is a polyp." And he said, "We got to take a small piece of it first." And I said to him, "What is the chance it is cancer." He looked at me like there is no chance where you would need it. You are a moron. And literally, that was on a Thursday, and on Monday I got to Houston, we have a problem. Phone call. It came back hot. Is a renal clear cell carcinoma in the nth point sinus, which is a pocket of air that sits right here, where your brain sits on. And had it been benign, it would be just as dangerous, because it could grow and break something called the cribriform bone, which your brain sits on top of. And I went to three doctors, three surgeons, who said to me, the last guy gave me my check back. I will never forget that gave me my check back. And I finally found the guy at Sloan Kettering who became, ultimately the head of head and neck, John Shah. And he said, "I have never done it." He said, “Frankly, there is probably never” he said, “Nobody gets cancer there.” The first thought was, this cannot be so you must have it someplace else. So, I went through a series of tests of find that cancer, you know, and they could not find it anywhere else, and it was nowhere else because, and they said, "Okay." He said, "In theory, I should be able to do this, but it is going to take two surgical teams. We need to bring in a neurological team and-and I am the head and neck guy." Because they are going to have to flip your lid and take your body apart like you missed the potato head. 15 hours of surgery, two surgical teams, and they were able to so I have a scar that goes from here to here, oh, my God. And I have one that goes on the side of my nose. As you can see- IG: 1:03:14 It is inconspicuous. JM: 1:03:14 I had- I was such an arrogant prick that I said to Shah, "Do we need a plastic surgeon?" And he looked at me like, "Son, what do you think I am?" [laughs] IG: 1:03:14 Yeah, exactly. JM: 1:03:14 "You want a plastic surgeon." And-and I had the operation, and what it resulted in is I am somebody who has zero sense of smell, because they had to sever the olfactory nerve. And so that is, that is what that is that was the only price I paid. His brilliant surgery was able to take the tumor out. It was encapsulated, had metastasized, and I was [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:57 Saved your life. JM: 1:08:58 [crosstalk] saved my life. I was back at work in 30 days. IG: 1:09:06 And that changed- JM: 1:09:07 Nothing. IG: 1:09:08 Nothing. JM: 1:09:14 Because I was never sick. I mean, I have stuffed nose, I mean, I did not have, you know, cancer, the jaw. IG: 1:09:21 You are afraid that you might die. JM: 1:09:23 I could not believe I was going to die. What I was most afraid of, you said, because this is, you know, Jewish whining piece of shit. I was afraid of disfigurement and pain because I have zero tolerance for discomfort. And so, but I just could not get you, I mean, I was otherwise healthy. Again, I am going to die, right? Made no sense. And so, I guess I never thought I would die. IG: 1:09:55 And you were, you were young, you were young. JM: 1:09:57 I was 42 years old--it occurred- IG: 1:10:00 Yeah. JM: 1:10:00 The operation occurred to my 42nd birthday, and I lost one day of my life. I mean, I was gone for an entire day, and-and then, you know, I got punished for being the arrogant schmuck I am anyway. So-so when you have brain surgery because he had to take this bone away and drain my brain. So, the first problem they always have is that, did they put everything back correctly? And so, until-until you are, you are stable, you are under the control of the neurological team. And I, they would not, they do not hand me back to my real doctor. They had a neck doctor. So, they come in every day, [inaudible] Sloan Kettering. There is no- I am on painkiller because face, but there is nothing they do because they are just worried you are going to get an infection if you have brain surgery. And so, it is every day take a temperature, and every day they want to see if you are confused. So, what is your name? Why-why are you here? So, on the fourth day, they came in to see me, and at this point, I am fine, I am off the pain killer, and they say to me, why are you here? And I said, I just killed the Archduke Ferdinand [Irene laughs] worldwide anarchist movement. They do not say, stop it. IG: 1:11:31 Because they lef.t JM: 1:11:32 They back up. And next thing is, you hear footsteps. My wife is sitting there looking at me like and then you hear people running full speed into the room. So, the doctors, guys and my surgeon, the head neck guy, came to see me that night, and he looked at me, said, "You are really a jerk." He said, "You are being punished now they are not turning you over for another day". I am one of the few people you know that got expelled from Sloan Kettering. I was supposed to be there for-for three weeks, and after two weeks, they asked me to leave. IG: 1:12:10 That is the point of honor. JM: 1:12:11 Because there is nothing wrong with me. I do not look disfigured, right? And I am on the head and neck floor, which looks like a Fellini nightmare, yeah, people and every day you line up for treatment. It is a gulag, and there are people there that are so horribly maimed and destroyed by a hospital. Mr. So and so you look carefully, look terribly dead. You are going home, and I am there with the New York Times reading it with a cup of coffee, and they told me, we will see you tomorrow. There is nothing they could do for me. So, I started getting stoned and so and great thing is Sloane, which is on York Avenue, the people will be lined up at night, 11 o'clock at night, smoking cigarettes through the trade. And I am the last one on the line smoking a joint. They bust me in the patience lounge on the 15th floor, outside with the head of terrorists. But I am smoking a joint that point. They said, "We think you should leave the hospital." Okay? And I was dismissed a week early. IG: 1:13:11 And you did this deliberately to get- JM: 1:13:14 No. I was so bored. IG: 1:13:15 You were bored. JM: 1:13:16 I was bored beyond belief. I had visitors. The people were amazed. It was coming to visit me. The Queens borough president was seeing came to see me, the Bronx borough president. I knew all these people. They are my friends from the days working in government, and they would say to me, "What are you doing here?" I said, I have no idea. I have no tubes in me. Can you imagine being in a hospital for two weeks and they do not take blood? I think it violates a law or something. IG: 1:13:39 Yeah, and especially when, when people are significantly- JM: 1:13:43 But blood would not indicate. All they did was take my temperature to see if I spiked my fever. And that was, I mean, that is so I am bored to death. And every day I am walking to the Gulag, you know, for the treatment. And I there is no treatment to give me. There is nothing to do. It is done. I had a nose job, basically, the mother of all nose jobs, nonetheless. But it was a nose job. That is what I had. They took out my septum, and you boom, and I have a sinus here, that is, you know, unencumbered by chambers. And then they had a gross but they had pulled tissue, so things up, but it all was inside. And, you know, there was no post operative treatment. And walked away, and came back only a few times to the hospital because Shah was no longer interested in me. It was clear that I had survived. And so he is, he is a scientist. I am of no interest to him. So, after my second return visit, he said, "We will let the resident look at you. I would not let him operate, at least. Why am I going to let him look at me? We are done." He said, "Okay, we are done." IG: 1:14:55 Yeah. I mean, we could talk about this. [crosstalk] JM: 1:15:07 You graduated from Harpur things like this. IG: 1:15:10 But that is so interesting, so interesting. And you are, you know, natural storyteller. JM: 1:15:18 Yes, which is the ability to be a [inaudible] so I have to be I do not do this as much anymore, but I used to stand up in front of hostile communities and get them to first see that I was a human. So, it is hard to hate you. I have always told clients the magic in doing these projects is you got to keep showing up. So, the first day you show up, everyone hates you, and the second day, they still hate you. By the fourth or fifth time you are a person now, and so you got a cold, you okay, you feel all right, right, because all of a sudden you are humanized. Now, once I am humanized, I can start to tell you about my project. IG: 1:15:59 That is actually very excellent advice to you know, young people listening to this tape, and- JM: 1:16:10 You promised me, no one is going to listen to this tape. IG: 1:16:12 No one is going to listen to this tape, we are going to excerpt. And you know I am thinking like, what section? JM: 1:16:20 About Harpur and plus, I have a huge complaint you do not make Harpur paraphernalia. You only make SUNY Binghamton paraphernalia. Those of us who graduated, when we graduated, do not really tell people we went to SUNY Binghamton. It was not SUNY Binghamton when I was there. IG: 1:16:46 No. JM: 1:16:46 Actually, that is not true. It became SUNY Bingham while I was there. But I did not get admitted to SUNY Binghamton. And my diploma says Harpur College. I mean, so, but you do not have any paraphernalia. IG: 1:17:01 Meaning? JM: 1:17:03 T shirts, hats. IG: 1:17:05 I see, I see, okay, so that that is something that we can work on. JM: 1:17:09 The number of us who are Harpur graduates, every year or less, we like World War One veterans. IG: 1:17:16 Yeah, I know, I know, but, but I mean that this is the way of life. But, yeah, there quite a number of you still very active. These are the people that I spoke to and-and they share your sentiment that they really identify as Harpur graduate rather than Binghamton. JM: 1:17:33 Yeah. IG: 1:17:35 So, you know, maybe as a concluding you-you, you certainly can conclude with any thoughts that you- JM: 1:17:45 I have no closing statement. IG: 1:17:47 You know, so, so what-what lessons did you learn from this period in your life that- JM: 1:17:53 I grew up. IG: 1:17:54 You grew up. JM: 1:17:55 I mean, yeah. I mean it-it made me be responsible for me, yeah, which I was never before, and it was a great environment, it was safe, it was secure, and maybe it was none of that, but I certainly felt it, I did not feel I was I was so amazed that I was now responsible for going to school, and nobody was there to tell me to go to school. I mean, it sounds kind of dumb, but wow. I mean, if I do not go, no one is going to call me up and say where I was. And somehow it made me an adult. Began it began to make me adult. I do not know if I am there yet, but, but it was- I was not a child, at least anymore, and I was somewhat responsible, or at least I thought I was going to become responsible for me. And I then made my own choice without consultation with anyone that where I was going to law school, you went through the application process by so without talking to any my parents, my family, my brother, and I think I was on my way to being on my own, and I owe that to Harpur [crosstalk] and the music was good. IG: 1:19:27 And the music was good. JM: 1:19:28 Paul Butterfield would perform there, the Turtles. I saw the Turtles there. Saw the Grateful Dead, and then also went to Ithaca to see the Who, when they just started doing Tommy and I am old. IG: 1:19:43 Well, you share this love with the Dean of Libraries, because I think he, he is, he is a bit younger than you. JM: 1:19:53 So is most of the western world. IG: 1:19:56 No, do not say that. No, and, and so he went to see the Grateful Dead. That was a very highlight of his young life. Any concluding remarks? JM: 1:20:10 Thank you, Irene. IG: 1:20:11 Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jesse Masyr Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Masyr, Jesse ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Partner at Fox Rothschild in New York. He specializes in real estate law and is responsible for bringing legislation that permitted sidewalk cafes to Manhattan. Prior to joining the firm, Jesse was the founder of the Land Use Department and a named partner in the law firm of Wachtel Masyr & Missry LLP. He also previously served as Deputy Borough President of Manhattan, where for five years he represented the Borough President on the Board of Estimate. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jesse Masyr, '73.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-11-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:12 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3326816391c47bf63770ea3f84865d36.jpg ba8814e0ae3c7aaa48a11bd005dc805d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e4f38486a3645fdc074329bdb0341a4e.mp3 4250a85d1d0aa18e91c9fec8f737afe7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-12-21 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred Neil Peck Year of Graduation 1966 Biographical Text Fred Neil Peck of Long Island graduated from Harbor College in 1966 with a degree in biology, where he was actively involved in athletics and fraternity life. He later earned a master’s degree from SUNY Albany and a PhD in economics from NYU, reflecting a shift in his academic focus from the sciences to economics. Peck began his career at First Boston Corporation, where he provided economic forecasting and client services. He later transitioned into education, teaching at Hofstra University before moving into the New York City public school system, where he worked in Special Education Administration. He is married, has three sons, and resides in the New York City area. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Fred Neil Peck Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 21 December 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, we are on. FP: 00:03 Good morning. I am Fred Peck. I graduated from Harpur College in 1966. Uh, and I am sitting here with Irene Gashurov at the SUNY Global Center at 116 East 55th Street, Manhattan. I do not get into Manhattan quite as often as I used to. I spent 40 years commuting daily into Manhattan, and this is the first time in months that I have dealt with traffic on the FDR Drive. In any case, we are here to talk about my experience in the 1960s. IG: 00:49 Very good, very good. Thank you for that introduction. So let us begin with the beginning. And so, where did you grow up? FP: 00:58 Well, the beginning for me was the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. My family lived in by that time, already, century old, four story or five-story walk-up on Sterling Place near Howard Avenue in Brooklyn. But shortly thereafter, we moved into brand new, a brand-new home, a brand-new apartment building in Canarsie, where we lived for a few short years before moving to Long Island. So, I moved to Long Island at the age of seven. I have some memories of life from Brooklyn, but for the most part, I consider myself a Long Islander. I grew up from second grade through high school on Long Island, and my family lived there- IG: 01:56 Where? FP: 01:56 -many, many years in Hicksville, Hicksville, and today, I still have one sister. I have four sisters and a brother. One of my sisters still lives on Long Island. Another lives in Brooklyn. The rest of my family is scattered all over the country. I have a sister in Florida, a sister in California. My brother lives up in Massachusetts, but I remain a New Yorker, and I live in Rockland County, where I raised my family and commuted, as I say, into Manhattan for 40 years, for a couple of couple of Manhattan based careers. But I am a Long Islander. I grew up in Long Island. That is that, that is, that is. IG: 02:39 So, tell me a little bit about your family. Were your family? Who were they? What did they do? FP: 02:46 Well, my father was a small businessman. He was a butcher and owned a meat market, originally in Jackson Heights, Queens and-and then sold that business. And because he wanted to move to Long Island with his family, so he bought a shop in Massapequa, Massapequa Park. And throughout, you know, my-my youth, and right through college, graduate school, and what have you, he owned and ran that butcher shop. So, my brother and I go around telling people we were sobs, sons of butchers. In any case, yeah, we my family grew up, as I say, around that small business environment. It never occurred to me at the time, although I ultimately came to appreciate it that despite all of the aspects of running a small business successfully, that many people about which many people may be very unfamiliar, because you have got to do your own accounting, your own planning, your own marketing, and what have you. So, there is a lot that goes into it, besides the specifics of the skill of being a meat cutter, but he ran a successful business. But the key for me, that I discovered later on in life, was that his store, his business, was 15 minutes from his house. And my entire professional life, I never spent less than an hour and a half or so each way to and from work. I- so I came to really appreciate the fact that he wanted that he purchased the business close to where he wanted to live. But what that really meant, of course, was that when he left the house in the morning, we were already getting up and going to school, so we saw him in the morning. It meant that we had dinners together. He was always there in the evening. Uh so-so it really gave him a lot of time with his family. Now, my-my mother, my ours, is a sort of blended family. So, my mother passed away at a relatively young age. She was 41 years of age at that time, I had a brother and a sister. My father remarried and-and he and his wife had three additional daughters. So that is how I got three additional sisters. So a total of four sisters and a brother, um and- IG: 05:39 So, four sisters and one brother. That is the entire family. FP: 05:42 That is the entire family. The original family for me was my brother and sister, and then when he remarried, they had three additional sisters. Three half-sisters. IG: 05:53 What was the expectation in your family about education and higher education? FP: 05:57 Well, from a very early age, my mother, before she passed away, was very concerned about education. She herself had after-after graduating high school had gone on to, I guess, what you would have called Business College in those days, really secretarial and bookkeeping school. My father, on the other hand, kept in mind this was he was he matured in the 30s, depression, hard times. He left high school in order to get a job, in order to help support a family at a time when things were difficult, and there was an opportunity for him--take it or leave it. He was 16 years old. High school is high school. I can always go back to it. He never did my he was a bright fellow, but, but he never went back to finish high school. So, nevertheless, both he and my mother and my stepmother had expectations that all of their children would go to college and pursue education as a goal unto itself, as far as their interests and abilities would take them. So, I was we were never- the only pressure on us was you were in school--you might as well study and learn as much as you can and do as well as you can. But beyond that, there was never any pressure. Why are you still in graduate school? What is a PhD going to do for you? And why do not you go get a job that never entered the conversation? They were very-very supportive throughout now, as it turns out, and I am not sure specifically about each one of my siblings, but I know that my brother and I both went through school and graduate school with very little out-of-pocket expense. We all had scholarships and then later fellowships and that sort of thing. So, we were relatively fortunate. I think my parents did pay considerable sums for some of my sisters, but I do not think that was any lack of intelligence on their part. There was a there is a fairly wide spread in age, and by the mid (19)60s, funding for things like scholarships and what have you, became increasingly stingy, increasingly difficult to come by. IG: 08:46 Even in the (19)60s. FP: 08:48 Sure, by the late 60s, I mean, my brother and I both had region, New York Region scholarships as long as we went to a school within New York State, our tuition was paid for, period in those days. I mean, Harpur College tuition was, my memory serves, something on the order of $300 a year. And my-my Regent scholarship would have paid up to $750 a year for tuition, which would have been, you know, half the cost of Columbia University, for example. I mean, that is, and by the late (19)60s that started to wind down, or the eligibility became more difficult. I mean, there was a separate region scholarship examination at that time, and then later on, they switched to looking at the SATs, but-but getting funding to go to school for us turned out not to be an issue. Or my parents were not wealthy, but they would have funded our education. But turns out, it was not really necessary. I mean, room and board, if I am not mistaken, was around $500 a year. For a full 21 meal plan, 21 meals a week with a meal plan plus your room. So, my summers spent at a boy’s camp as a counselor paid for my room and board for the year. So-so the financial aspects of going to college did not in those days impose a burden, a significant burden on our family. We did not come out of school heavily in debt. Compare that to what goes on today. That was not, that was not the major criteria. The major criteria for whether you went to college in those days was whether you felt the desire to continue in school after high school, and whether it made sense to you from a career perspective, versus going to work when I graduated high school, went to work at Grumman Aircraft. I mean, there were manufacturing jobs, industries that were paying wonderful middle-class salaries, and you did not need a college degree. So. IG: 11:08 Let us just backtrack to you know, so why did you decide on Harpur College rather than a local- FP: 11:15 Okay. A lot of first of all, growing up on Long Island, the main local school was Hofstra University, Hofstra University private school. But at that time, it was a commuter school. There were no dorms [inaudible] IG: 11:30 What about Stony Brook? FP: 11:32 Well, Stony Brook was brand new. Stony Brook was maybe in 1963 when I when I went off to Binghamton, Stony Brook was an option, and many of my friends did opt that way. The major thing for me was too darn close to home. [laughs] I wanted to go further away. I knew I had to stay in New York State because I had my tuition paid for. But-but Stony Brook was just too close. I wanted to be off Long Island. I wanted to be far enough away that in an emergency, I could hop on a bus and get home. All my parents could get up to me, hopping in the car and 4.3,4, hours, but not 25 minutes away or half an hour away, that was, that is just too close. IG: 12:23 Too close. So-so you decided on Harpur College. Did you think of other- FP: 12:27 Yes. Well, in those days, I have three sons, so I went through this college application process with them, and it is conceivable my memory deceives me, but going through the process with them, I thought back to what it was like when I applied. And for them, they applied to dozens of schools. You know, they had a couple of areas of interest, and they looked into several schools that offered opportunities when I was in high school, my-my guidance counselor, first of all, again, my parents had no real experience with college, so they left it pretty much up to whatever the guidance counselor advised us. In those days, the standard recommendation was you pick a school in which you have an interest based on their programming and their location and what have you that may just be out of reach in terms of your academic standing, you may have a chance, but you reach for this guy, pick the school you would most likely choose to go to and then pick a safe school, because you want to be in school. You want to make sure you are going to be accepted. So that was the advice. So, I applied to three schools. IG: 13:51 Which were they? FP: 13:52 Well, now I applied to Queens College, which was half an hour in the other direction, but I had relatives living in Queens. I easily established New York City resident. It would have been a commuter school and but I could have established New York City residents would have, which would have meant that tuition was free in any case, so my reach of scholarship would have been irrelevant. I would have been living at home, but based on their admissions standards. It was a shoe, and it was a safe school for me. When I graduated high school, I finished well, top-top 5 percent of the class, not as big a deal as I said in those days. It was not that important to focus on your academics. I mean, we had a third of our class were in vocational programs in high school. So, a different time. IG: 14:47 Also, Hicksville was a different kind of place, right? It was- FP: 14:50 Hicksville is a blue-collar, middle blue-collar to middle class range, not a particularly wealthy community. Good school-school district, but not-not-not Scarsdale. So, but for me, getting into Queens College was a breeze. Columbia University would have been the reach. And because I wanted to, you know, picked an ivy and where was I going to go to New Jersey, go to Princeton, go-go-go to Connecticut and go to Yale, Rhode Island, go to Brown, New Hampshire, go to Dartmouth, Harvard, Boston. And then it would become expensive, and then it would have been a financial burden on my parents. So, Columbia was my reach school, you might say. And in doing some research, Harpur College, there was no Binghamton University. There was no university SUNY Binghamton, Harpur College happened to be located in the City of Binghamton. Well, actually Vestal. But they were going to experiment. Number one, it had a reputation as being a challenging school. My teachers might remember an AP Bio, my teacher said to me, "You know, if you go to Harpur, you are going to work harder than you then you will if you go to Columbia." That is what he said. IG: 14:51 Really? FP: 15:36 So, and being the competitive sort that I am, that immediately intrigued me. Number one. Number two, it would have cost my parents nothing between-between my personal savings, my summer work, and my scholarship; I was going to go to school for nothing. Colombia would have been expensive. And most especially, I selected it over a variety of schools, both State University and other upstate schools, because I was look- it is amazing why the letter H pops up. But I was looking at Hamilton, I was looking at Hobart. I was looking, you know, yeah, and Harpur-Harpur was going to start that summer with something called a trimester, so right after I graduated high school, I could immediately start college right after July 4. IG: 15:39 I see, I see. FP: 15:41 And not have to spend a summer at home. That appeals to me, get out of the house immediately. Remember it was, it was kind of crowded, and I was anxious to get it to get away. So, although the- for many trimesters was the only way they were going to get in, because in order to fill up three semesters and more fully utilize resources, it also meant quickly expanding the freshman class. So, standards were lowered somewhat. So, for many students, that might have been the only way they were going to get into Harpur. IG: 17:58 But it is also quicker, right? You finish your degree? FP: 18:01 Well, that depends on the student. You had the option of selecting two out of the three trimesters per year and take the full four years to finish your eight trimesters or eight semesters. I went straight through. I went straight through. I graduated in three years. IG: 18:18 Yeah. FP: 18:19 I graduated in three years I went straight through that is because I was having too much fun. IG: 18:26 So, what were your first impressions? FP: 18:30 Well, Harpur College is a relatively small school. IG: 18:32 Yes. FP: 18:33 When I when I got to Harpur, there were 400 students in the total freshman class of all three semesters, it was total fresh. There was a total undergraduate student body of 1600 students. There were 200 graduate students. That was the entire campus--other than the the-the gym, now the East gym, but at the time it was the gym and Newing dining hall, the old Newing dining hall, and, of course, the service buildings. IG: 19:09 Where do you mean the service building? FP: 19:10 Oh, there was a steam generator and what have you. Other than those, those were the only structures outside the brain, the entire school, all the dorms, all of the academic buildings, administration and the library, the Student Union, which in those times, at that time, was called the Student Center, was all contained within the brain. So, it was a compact school. It was a compact school, and it was a small school, so easy to get around, easy to know everybody, easy to be very involved in in school life that appealed to me greatly when I visited. IG: 19:50 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to study? FP: 19:53 Oh yes, that is the other thing about growing up in a family where you are the first generation to go to college is that there are no there are some preconceived notions, but they are rather silly--born of just simply not knowing. So, from my father's perspective, it is wonderful that you are going to college, you are going to be a physician. IG: 20:15 Right. Of course. FP: 20:16 Unless, of course, you cannot cut it. We know that that happens, in which case you will end up being a dentist. It is also the case that once you get into college, even though you were interested in the sciences in high school, it is possible that when you go to college, you may find yourself drifting off to the social sciences. So, you become an attorney. And again, if you cannot get options, you cannot. Well, if you cannot get into law school, you end up becoming an accountant, and we will forgive you, right? That is it, that is it, that is it. So-so, the world opens up when you particularly in a liberal arts framework, the whole world of opportunities that you did not even know existed opens up- Harpur College. Remember the 1960s was a decade of transition from what you might call old school technology in higher education to the new student driven programming. When I entered, there were rigid programmatic requirements. You were required to have a minor, which consisted of 12 credits or more in each of the major segments of the undergraduate program, Social Sciences, you had to have a minor in somewhere in the social sciences. In the humanities, you had to have a minor in the humanities, somewhere in the humanities and the natural sciences, you had to have a minor in the natural sciences, one of those would become your major. So, I mean, these were programmatic. Then on top of that, there were very specific course requirements for all incoming freshmen. Lit 101 and 102, Lit and Literature and Composition, 101, 102 required. Social studies, 101 was required. U, a 101, 102 two semester sequences in one of the natural sciences could have been biology, could have been chemistry, could have been physics could have been geology could have been psychology, because the psychology program at Harpur was experimental psychology, and it was in the science program. So those were requirements, and you got your when you entered, you got your course catalog, and you were told in the get go, this is the course catalog in which you are entering, your graduation requirements are from this catalog. There may be changes over the course of your time at Harpur in terms of requirements and what have you. You may opt for any newer set of requirements and or courses, but you will always be guaranteed that what you pick from this catalog will apply by the time you graduate. IG: 23:25 And you understood all of that? FP: 23:28 We received help in understanding it. Yes, our advisors were very clear this was important Harpur College graduate. The intention was that if you came to Harpur College, you were going to graduate from Harpur College. Harpur College. We do not, we do not do dropouts. That that would, that was, that was the message, it turns out, obviously, but, but the expectation was they were going to get you through, as long as you put in the effort you have been accepted, and as long as you put in the time and energy you are going to get through. IG: 24:02 So, what you were some of the so what were some of the surprises to you from the courses that took and- FP: 24:11 The biggest, the biggest surprise right off the bat, like after the first week-- again, I did very well in high school. I was top of my class very first week. Every single one of these people is just like me. They were all bright. They are all bright. The dumbest I could be the dumbest one in the class. Could be the smartest? There is not that much of a spread, or at least not noticeable. I mean, there were some brilliant people, but you would not necessarily notice it, because we were all bright. We all understood the teachers were saying. We were all able to read these classic texts and develop our skills at the exposition and the evaluation, to be sure, but-but it was, you know, it was mind blowing at the time to realize you were at the top of the class here in the middle at best. And as it turns out, I graduated near the bottom of my class. I graduated near the bottom of my class graduated on top, but out of, I think 404 students, or something like that, in my graduating class. You know, I may have been 50 from the bottom, 60 from the bottom, something like that. IG: 25:37 That is No, you know, academic success is irrelevant. FP: 25:41 It was irrelevant. It was irrelevant. The Graduate Schools loved it. Binghamton by the time I graduated, the school had such a reputation I had no problem getting to grad school. IG: 25:50 So, what were some of the academic the intellectual surprises that maybe opened your thinking, opened your mind, you know, your perception of the world that you had not. FP: 26:00 Well, let us put it this way, I entered as a biology major with the intention of going to medical school. I ended up graduating as a biology major simply because I had too many credits to walk away from it, but had a heavier than required minor in economics, and went to graduate school in economics, became an economist, never even heard of the study of economics. Never occurred to me that there was actually a theory to describe how markets, manual, produce and distribute and how and price theory and production theory, I mean, that never occurred to me. Sociology, I had heard of growing up in Samoa. I knew who Margaret Mead was when I was in high school, but I had never read it never occurred to me in a million years. It was actually an academic discipline of sociology, of studying the development and-and growth of societies and differences and what philosophy? What is philosophy? As I said, you had to have a minor in the humanities. For me, humanities, I mean, yeah, I understood taking Literature and Composition, yeah, I understood that I had to read these classic texts, okay, I had heard of Plato, so now I am reading the Republic, wonderful, yeah, okay, I knew that Socrates had, you know, had poisoned him the self under, you know, in lieu of public execution, Hemlock and-and now I am reading, you know, a third hand report of his teachings that, that sort of thing I, you know, and Dante. I mean, I guess I had heard of the Divine Comedy and what have you. But I high school. We did not, we did not read those texts. IG: 28:01 And you found all of this very engrossing or? What did you- FP: 28:06 I loved it. I was reading things that people have been reading for 1000 years, and suddenly it occurred to me, perhaps my 20th century perspective was going to glean from these texts something very different than someone than a Roman reading a Greek text. IG: 28:30 Of course. FP: 28:31 But I am reading in translation and later on, learning that those translation differences do make a difference. Nevertheless, I had my hand on history in a way that I did not even know existed or was possible. I-I was not a very worldly high school at the time. [crosstalk] So-so that philosophy, well, I will admit that you had to take a philosophy class, and I cheated as a science major. I took logic. Logic is mathematics, but itis philosophy, and so I avoided some of the more challenging philosophical classes, you know, I took Intro, I mean, I read, particularly in the Age of Enlightenment, Hume, Lock and Mills and what have you. By the way, that was what really got me into economics. It was, I did take Intro to economics, Paul Samuelson's text was the was the basis for that, for that class, but I never would have occurred to me to ultimately build a career around the study of economics until I did that intro philosophy class which I read those-those texts. IG: 30:03 And what were the ideas, the seminal ideas that opened up this field for you, what did you find so entrancing? Do you remember? FP: 30:17 For me, it was not about studying economics per se. Was not about studying markets. Was not specifically about studying theories of production or distribution. It was an approach or a discipline, to the study of human beings, to the study of humanity a particular aspect of their behavior. And you know, as a scientist, primarily, my way of thinking really required me to look at things which normally do not fall under the realm of the sciences per se, but with a scientific, disciplined approach, and economics provided that vehicle for me to study populations, to study people. A sociologists, core of you know what it is that they are studying the-the object of their study, but from a from a different approach, different set of tools to study the same behavior and characteristics of people, because I suddenly realized that I wanted to know more about what makes me think, about what makes the world think, about why life in one country is different than in another, one era in time is different than another, and there are a lot of things that account for those differences, but studying different time periods, different nations, different populations through the lens of economics provided one perspective that appealed to me and helped to explain for me why things happen the way they do, and how history unfolded the way it did, and- IG: 32:13 It is a framework from which to see the world. FP: 32:17 Yes. IG: 32:17 -see certain phenomena. FP: 32:18 That is exactly that, and that is what intrigued me, that is what led me on to them, and that all worked wonderfully right through the completion of my graduate studies, right until I started- IG: 32:29 [inaudible] to excuse me. FP: 32:30 Of course, graduation, I had to redesign my program to accommodate this new found desire, this new found course of study that was not really going to fit in with my major and still make sure I had enough time to finish up all of the requirements that I needed in my major. So that became a little bit tricky. I ended up graduating with about eight credits more than was required for graduation, just to make sure that I had enough in my major as well as fulfill my interests. And that was the other thing that was wonderful about going to a state university at the time and again. I do not really know what it is like today, but at the time you paid your tuition, you were required to take, to be a full-time student a minimum of 12 credits a semester. The recommended number was 16 credits a semester. But with your, with your advisor's permission, you could take as many as 20 credits in a semester. 18 was not unusual for a science major, because there were a lot of two credit lab classes that you could add on and amend to append to a four-credit science class. Science classes tended to be four credits. Fact, I think most classes were four credits. They were very intense. They were very long, and they met at least three times a week. So it was, it was pretty pretty-pretty intense academic preparation for whatever you chose to do when you when you graduated from Harpur College, I felt that when I graduated from Harpur College, and I believe this is true of everyone I knew, you were well grounded in the world of scholarship in the world of academia. IG: 34:48 {phone rings] I am listed as a pizza shop cross-listed it as a Domino's Pizza. So- FP: 35:04 [laughs] That is a funny story there that I am going to interject right now, since you, since you raised it, my-my first post postdoctoral- IG: 35:22 Where did you go for- FP: 35:23 NYU-NYU and I worked a- IG: 35:27 Very good economics program. FP: 35:29 Well, it was at the GBA at the Graduate School of Business Administration, now called the Stern-Stern School. And-and then I, and I was working at-at the First Boston Corporation investment banking firm. It is now Credit Suisse, First Boston and-and I had an office telephone. I do not recall precisely the number, but the area code was 212, and then the number. The number was the admissions department for UCLA, but there it is area code, 202 not 212, so here in one small digit in the area code, in the middle between twos, I got a lot of calls from prospective students asking to have application materials and catalogs and what have you sent to them? IG: 36:29 You cannot be really rude. FP: 36:30 [inaudible] Please-please redial. But this time you miss, dialed you. You dialed 212, New York City, please dial 202. [crosstalk] And whether it was students or their parents or their parents or guidance counselors, it really did not matter. I was not going to be rude. I thought it was humorous, and had my number change [crosstalk]. But so with regard to your Domino's story, in any case, yeah, everyone I knew, and I suspect to a certain extent, everyone who graduated in those days had a very well grounded, well-well informed base of-of academics that prepared them for professional school, graduate school, or any other continuation in formal learning, on the one hand, but on the other hand, despite the and we will get to this In a moment, because I know the really important part of this conversation is going to be about what life was like in the (19)60s, and in particular (19)60s at Harpur or on a college campus generally, but there was this overarching sense that the college stood in logo parentis, that is, they had a responsibility to guide us in much the same way our parents might. We really did not have quite as much independence as we thought we would, or that college students have today, and maybe more than there was more overt control over our daily lives and what have you. Then was even appropriate at the time and would certainly not fly today. And if anything, that would have been the one limiting factor on just how ready we were to enter the real world. Because once you step off into the real world, there is nobody looking out for you. Your decisions are yours. Nevertheless, the path on which all of that guidance placed you really did prepare you for the world. People could step out of school and they were ready to go to work. They-they had worked hard. You worked hard. You studied people-people. There were some dropouts, but there were also some transfers in. That is why the graduating class was the same size as the even a little bit larger than the entering freshman class, because we had transfers in as-as people moved out, or as people, people transferred, people dropped out, or they transferred to other schools. A good friend of mine after, after we completed freshman year, actually, I think it was three semesters, three trimesters. He decided he did not like being away from home. He was also a long Islander. He transferred back to Hofstra, which at time, at that time was a commuter school, because he wanted to be at home. He could not, he could not handle living away from-from home. It was a very personal thing. Everybody was a little bit different, but academically, I never regretted for a moment my-my liberal arts education number one, and the fact that I got it at Harpur College, so much so that I am intensely proud of the fact that my middle son is a legacy student. Followed in dad's footsteps, he-he has two degrees from Binghamton. He-he has a Bachelor of Arts in Physics from Harpur and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Watson. He also has a PhD from MIT, but it is just a statement about the quality of preparation. Students who graduate from Binghamton are ready to do anything that is that is my opinion. IG: 40:32 Do you have any outstanding professors, or? FP: 40:35 Yeah, there were, there were a few professor Battin, Biology stood out as being a fabulous professor. Professor Norcross, my Organic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry the brain for all bio for brain for all science majors who choose to take it. Norcross, great professor. I remember him. There were what is his name. I had a professor whose name escapes me now. I took physics with him in his first-year teaching at Binghamton at Harpur, my son, 40 years later, took physics with him in his last year before retirement. IG: 41:30 Is not that nice? You truly do have a history. FP: 41:32 So, that that was that that was astounding. And I with him, I took three semesters to two semesters physics, one and two, and then astronomy. I took astronomy with him as well. And of course, my-my fondest memories I mentioned earlier, I had too much fun. My fondest memories are down at the gym, my coaches, I-I was on I earn three-three letters at home soccer, swimming and track. Soccer coach Tim Shum, who I see every year at homecoming, and he and I worked jointly on recent fundraising campaign leading up to-to homecoming this fall, we did a major telephone marathon contacting former student athletes. But I have also become very close with Paul Marco, who's the current soccer coach, my swim coach, Dave Thomas, he retired many years ago, and my track coach, Stan Lyons, who left Binghamton to go to Butler. He passed away, but-but I remember them, of course, fondly and-and I did have some wonderful professors whose names have long since escaped me, or had a great German professor, oh, foreign language was required. I mean, it was just, it was a liberal arts education, and there were requirements. And so, I had to take two years, two semesters of German. His last name was Schmidt. I was not very good. I did not really have a good ear for foreign languages. I had to work very hard at it. He was a wonderful professor, and his approach to teaching introduction to German was, this is Goethe. You have to read Faust in German, and you will learn the German that is required by the syllabus from German literature, not from some grammar text. IG: 43:43 So, did he teach you language through reading? FP: 43:48 Through, primarily through reading. It was not a conversational class, so, but-but his approach, and there was grammar. I mean, we learned declinations and what have you I mean, we learned what you-you had to learn but-but his approach made it interesting. It was not just learning by road, it was learning by you want to know what happened next, you were going to have to translate it. So-so I remember him, and I had some wonderful teachers in all of the subjects that I had, and I had some professors, teachers who were less thrilling. Never had a bad teacher. Never had anybody I disliked. Even the administration and I had a personal relationship with s students, Stuart Gordon, who was the Dean of Students. And um, there was a small flooding incident in Champlain Hall, and I was an innocent bystander, but was a witness to how it all came about, and so I developed this relationship. I was in his office, along with a number of other students. We went through the whole judicial process, and I but even there, I mean, even Glen G. Bartle, they love students. They love being college administrators. IG: 45:34 You knew Mr. Bartle? Dr. Bartle, yeah. What was he like? FP: 45:38 Dr. Bartle, he was a geologist, number one. So, he was a scientist. IG: 45:42 You know that the library is named after him. FP: 45:43 Of course, I know that I was there when they built the tower. IG: 45:47 So, what was he like? I idea that he was a real person. [crosstalk] FP: 45:53 And, oh, he was more than just a real person. He was an academician of the first order. He had contacts, he was able to attract to this new State University, liberal arts college in the midst of a burgeoning state university system known for normal schools. I mean, these were teachers’ colleges all over the state, Oneonta, Fredonia and Geneseo and Brockport and Plattsburgh and Potsdam [inaudible] Harpur, and it is just one of those. Well, no, it is not one of those. And he made sure that the world came to know that, and he had a lot of contacts, and was able to attract some incredible talent to-to the school that you would not ordinarily expect. IG: 46:41 I have heard, I have heard that Harpur College profited from the exodus of German scholars in the (19)30s. FP: 46:52 Well- IG: 46:52 {inaudible] one of these? FP: 46:56 He certainly spoke with a German accent. So, he could have been but I do not know. I do not know. I will tell you that Glenn Bartle was a very strait-laced academician. So, in that one year, just before I arrived, I believe it was 1962 we did not have national fraternities that were not permitted on any of the state university campuses at that time. So, there were no Greek fraternities, but we did have local fraternities. We call them men social clubs, men's social clubs, women's social clubs. I was a member of ADPhi [Alpha Delta Phi] men's Social Club, and Marty Greenberg was also a member of ADPhi. He is a member of the Hall of Fame. Of course, a number of a number of our members, went on to academic success at Harpur, but he was a standout. And I believe Frank Pollard was the basketball coach, and Marty was on the team. I think it was 1962 I heard this story when I when I pledged the frat and-and they were supposed to go to a post season. IG: 48:11 What does that mean? FP: 48:13 The NCAA tournament after the season is over, the best teams in your division get invited to these post season tournaments. And Harpur College, I mean, this is big time basketball for a small-time college, and Glen Bartle refused to allow the team to go because it was finals week. IG: 48:40 How did you feel about that? FP: 48:41 I did not have feelings since I heard this third hand. I was not a student at the time. You would have to ask Marty Greenberg how he felt about it, but I happened to know him, and no, he did not think very highly of the decision and but it is more about Glenn Bartle than it is about the specifics of that incident, academics and an education and building the academic reputation of this institution was paramount. So, in any case, yeah, it was fitting when they built the tower that they ultimately at the time it was just called the faculty tower. IG: 49:28 Was he approachable, Dr. Bartle? FP: 49:33 That depends, that depends on some students. For some students, everybody is approachable? I could not give a darn who you are. I remember when Nelson Rockefeller was on campus, and I walked over and said, "Hey, Rocky." And I just- FP: 49:47 Absolutely. The thing you have to realize when I went to college and period we are talking about now. The drinking age in New York State was 18. The voting age was 21 that, of course, got switched later on in the aftermath of Vietnam War, the complaints about these youngsters who are old enough to die for their country, but not old enough to vote. So, the voting age was dropped to 18. Meanwhile, most states have drinking ages of 21 New York, therefore attracted a lot of young people across the borders from New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Connecticut. They would get drunk in New York and then drive home and get killed on the way. So ultimately, federal highway funds were threatened. Then New York raised the drinking age to 21 so today, the drinking age is 21 the voting age is 18. I will not address the drinking age question, but I will tell you that. I mean, I think itis valuable that 18-year-old have the vote. Unfortunately, it is not so valuable that they do not use it. So, there I s a huge educational aspect there that needs to be to get younger. IG: 49:48 Are you serious? IG: 51:11 You were approached Nelson Rockefeller and called him, "Hey Rocky," that that tells me a lot about your personality. FP: 51:18 Oh, I yeah, I am an extrovert and-and I and I am not star struck particularly well. I, first of all, I was admirer of people in power. I did not really know enough about the ins and outs at that time of New York State Government. Before I got my doctorate at NYU. I got a master's degree at Al- in Albany. I went to the Graduate School of Public Affairs, which is at the State University of New York at Albany. That was, that was my immediate move out of Binghamton. And when I was there in this, they did not have trimester two semesters. In fact, Binghamton dropped trimester right after I graduated as well. But while I was in Albany, I spent my summers working for the joint legislative committee on legislative fiscal analysis and review, which was, you know, at that time, the Alfred E Smith office building. And I worked directly for Perry Duryea, who was the long-time speaker of the New York State Assembly. He also happened to be the one who represented us on Long Island. Well, he was a Long Island representative. He was not the only one, but he was from Long Island. So that gave us a connection, you might say. So, I had already- IG: 52:46 You had such great opportunities, you know, to have [crosstalk] FP: 52:49 Anybody who came out of Harpur College in those days, if they chose to, would be given those opportunities on a silver platter. That was the reputation of the school. When my high school teacher said you were going to work harder at Harpur than you would at Columbia. A, it was true, from what I have heard. B, the rest of the world seems already, at that time, to become aware of the quality of the students that were coming out, and that these were students who were going to do well in whatever opportunities you give them. So yes, I had internships and that sort of thing. Then that other-other might have died for coming out of other schools, I do not know, but I was very fortunate. But having- FP: 53:35 When did you do these internships? If you had [crosstalk] FP: 53:41 I was in graduate school. IG: 53:43 You were in graduate school. Right. FP: 53:46 Yes. IG: 53:46 I see. In Albany? FP: 53:48 Yes. IG: 53:49 These internships are in Albany. FP: 53:51 Yes. IG: 53:54 You mentioned, I just wanted to backtrack a little bit to your Harpur days. You mentioned that you know you were having too much fun FP: 54:02 Yes. IG: 54:03 So, tell me a little bit about that. Where would you go? Where- FP: 54:06 First-first trimester allowed me to compete on three different athletic teams, because each one of them was confined to a particular trimester. So, we had a short soccer season that ended in November rather than December, because that was the start of the next trimester. The swimming season was only half of a trimester because the rest of the academic, academic world did not start the swim season until after the Christmas break. That was halfway through us our trimester already, but that is when swim season started, but it ended at the beginning of the spring trimester. Spring trimester was track season, and so I was able to participate in in three varsity teams. That is something that cannot be done today. Well, it is also the case that they were division three teams. I could not, I would not at my peak, I would never have made-made the first ring varsity of any of the Binghamton University teams today in Division one. These are fabulous athletes, but-but it created opportunities to travel to other schools. It did involve a lot of training and a lot of time down at the gym, and I made a lot of friends that way. And so that was one aspect of having too much fun. Another aspect of having too much fun revolved around the social club, local fraternity, whatever you want to call it. And there was Friday nights at Swats, the downtown Sullivan's tavern, or at or in those days on in Johnson City, I forget the name of the road, but it is where the mall is. At the end of the road, you go over the Fred C Johnson, Fred C Johnson, Fred Johnson. C Fred Johnson bridge in into Johnson City. And there used to be a traffic circle there and off. And the first exit was Riverside Drive heading into Binghamton. The second exit was Floral Avenue, and the third exit took you on what now it continues to be 201, whatever it is to the mall over there, yes, and that mall directly across the street from it, the Wegmans on the one side, on the other side, those motels and the Friendlies and what have you all of that was these large industrial buildings. When I was there huge industrial complex that was the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. FP: 54:53 That is right, that is right, the famous Endicott Johnson shoe factory. FP: 56:49 Yes. and right down the road, as you might imagine, from any factory, with a row of pubs and taverns, where at five o'clock whistle workers would come out, and that would be their stop before heading home. It was also a Friday night stop for fraternity. IG: 57:07 How would you get there? By- FP: 57:09 Well, what happened there are, there were no-no blue busses. That is the Binghamton blue busses that take you all over. Now that did not exist, but there were city busses. So, there was a bus to Johnson City, but it went up Floral Avenue and dropped you off at whatever that road is, which becomes oak that goes all the way into Binghamton. Yeah, Oak Street, whatever that street is that goes into being by the by the Truman gate. That is as far as the bus would take you. And you could take a bus into Binghamton. These were city busses. But I would say that out of the 20 or 30 guys who were in the club, there were probably five or six automobiles. So, if you were available, you would all pour-pour into those, and we would go. By the time I was a junior, I had a car as well. My father gave me an automobile, 1960 Plymouth, sport fury. I love that car. Why? Because it was the first my first car. Everybody loves their first car anyway. And Kenny Bloom had had a car. I remember one of my fraternity brothers and-and so we would go again, 18 years of age. Was the drinking age. It was a dry campus. There was a period of time. Shortly after I left Binghamton, I was in graduate school in Albany. And when I returned, there was a guest lecture that I came for. And we came down, Roy Harrod, Sir Roy Harrod was giving a lecture at Binghamton. And we drove down from Albany. Roy Harrod is a world famous he may be, not sure it could be a Nobel Prize winner, one of the early ones, or certainly should have been, but one of the most wide, highly the in the era of John Maynard Keynes and John Hicks, world famous economists, right up there with Paul Samuelson and Robert Solow and these guys, and-and he was giving a lecture and-and, so-so we came down to hear that lecture, and I and there was a rathskeller-ratskeller, that was serving beer on the campus, and, I think. And remember, the drinking age was still 18, so my dry campus was no longer dry. That I do not know how long that lasted, but- IG: 59:53 That is one of the changes of the later (19)60s. FP: 59:58 That-that would have been late (19)60s or early (19)70s. Yes, I would have been like 1968. (19)69 I am guessing. IG: 1:00:08 So, did you see, you know, the climate change while you were well campus, and when you returned to there from- FP: 1:00:19 The climate began to change- the first thing you need to know, if you walk around Binghamton University today, there is a lot of construction going on. When I arrived in July of 1963 there was a lot of construction going on from July of 1963 when I arrived, and I am told by those who preceded me, starting in 1959 when they first broke ground for the gym, to today. There has been a lot of construction. FP: 1:00:43 Eternal construction. FP: 1:00:57 Forever. IG: 1:00:58 Yes, it is like, it is what they say about St John the Divine, the cathedral on the Upper West Side, that it is, it is, you know, eternal, in an eternal state of construction. So is Harpur- FP: 1:01:13 Absolutely-absolutely. IG: 1:01:15 Binghamton campus. FP: 1:01:15 Yes. So, I am going to tell you a few of the things that have changed dramatically that actually influenced the way we lived at the time versus today, and contributed to some of the traditions. But it was a dry it was a dry campus at that time, and we all lived in a small group of about and it was eight dormitories in total, four men and four women. Women had a curfew. IG: 1:01:51 That is right, that is right. FP: 1:01:53 Women had a curfew, if I am not mistaken, it was 10 o'clock during the week and Friday and Saturday nights, midnight. And there was a card system. You checked in with your cards, and you checked out, and you move your card from the inbox to the outbox. And any, anybody, any visitors, male visitors, picking you up for a date or what have you would have to check in at the front desk, and then they would check the card to make sure you were there. Then they would call the young lady down, and you had to have her back in time to move her card from the outbox back to the inbox. And what have you did? IG: 1:02:34 Did male students have the same restrictions? FP: 1:02:36 No. There were no restrictions. You came and went as you wished. That is exactly right. So that is and we did have on Sunday afternoons open dorm visitation, three feet on the floor. IG: 1:03:02 I have heard about that. FP: 1:03:06 So, the and doors open, obviously. And we did not have suites, though. These were all dorm style hall and nothing co-ed. But when I arrived, the first of the dormitory buildings outside of the brain were under construction, and Bingham and Endicott Hall, which surrounded New England dining hall, were the first dorms open, and I was among the first group of students to move across the brain into Bingham Hall. So I was that very first resident in Bingham Hall. But think about for a moment. You know, 1600 students on campus. Maybe 150 or 200 of those undergraduates lived off campus and commuted. Everybody else lived on campus. That is so that social club, that fraternity, we all lived on campus when we had our weekly meetings, it was in one of the rooms in the student center that we had so there was no off-campus activity. It was a dry campus. I mean, think about a fraternity, and think about what fraternity life would be like under those circumstances, where you have maybe half a dozen automobiles once a week, you could get everybody together to go for a beer or something. But for the most part, life for this fraternity was on campus or to revolve- IG: 1:04:43 It was a dry campus. FP: 1:04:44 It was a dry campus, so our fraternity activities revolved around athletics, including into a big presence on the intramural athletics. The intramural athletics were more important to most students than the intercollegiate athletics. Today, equivalent today would be correct, football, for example, on the Binghamton campus. But in those days, softball league, soccer leagues, and all of these inter band, basketball, intramural teams dominated the life of the social clubs. That was where the social clubs competed, and what have you, shows, talent shows, that sort of thing what is now the Mandela room in the old student center. That room was originally a mini theater. IG: 1:05:29 There was a radio station. FP: 1:05:31 Yes, there was a radio station WHU something, something and but it was not an FM station. It was broadcast on campus only. You had to be in a campus building with it or within-within the confines you know that the signal was focused on-on the campus, we had our newspaper, which was the Colonial News. It was ultimately changed to the Pipe Dream because somebody objected to the word colonial thinking that it means the same thing as a colonialist, whereas it really referred to colonist John Harpur for who the school was named. But-but I, like I will not complain about that. I was a colonial on the athletic teams, but I am proud to be a bear cat. So-so I do not get, I do not get there are certain traditions worthy of change, and I really do not have any-any problem with that at all. But life in the fraternity was focused around the campus life and athletics was focused around training and what have you. And then there was political life on the campus, and that revolved around the student center board, which was the precursor for the Student Association ESA. Student Center board then became ESA later, and I was on the student center board, dorm rep, and with specific responsibility for helping to put on shows. We had a winter weekend and a spring weekend. These were big events, and we brought in talent to put- IG: 1:07:13 Who did you bring [inaudible]? FP: 1:07:13 -on a big concert. I will we-we had the Mitchell Trio. Right after John Mitchell retired, it used to be the not John Mitchell, Chad Mitchell, Chad Mitchell retired. So, they kept the name the Mitchell trio. They dropped the chat, and his replacement singer was a young singer by the name of John Denver. So, we had John Denver and the Mitchell Trio. We had Lambert [Dave Lambert], Hendricks [Jon Hendricks] and Bavan [Yolande Bavan] great jazz singers. We had some of the big duo groups, the Drifters, (19)50s and early (19)60s, Simon and Garfunkel. FP: 1:08:00 They were there? FP: 1:08:00 But you are talking about they had one hit. They were brand new. You know that that- IG: 1:08:06 Was your- what was your first hit? Do you remember? FP: 1:08:10 The first one that I ever heard from them was Silence- Sounds of Silence. IG: 1:08:13 Oh, is that what they performed? Did you see them perform? FP: 1:08:16 Yes. Yes. IG: 1:08:16 And how was, how was that? FP: 1:08:18 Well, again, they were not superstars. IG: 1:08:20 They were not superstars. FP: 1:08:21 We could never have afforded any superstars. Five years after we had John Denver, there never, ever been able to get him again. Three years after we had Simon and Garfunkel, never been able to touch them again. You know, I remember, but it was, remember, the period was the early (19)60s, 1960 mid (19)60s. I got there in (19)63 I left in (19)66 that was, that was the three-year British invasion. So, all the music that we would have wanted to bring to campus- IG: 1:09:00 Was not, was not available. FP: 1:09:02 You could not get the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. IG: 1:09:06 Was not folk. But you really- FP: 1:09:09 We did have folk singers. We did have folk singers trying to remember, I think we had Buffy Sainte-Marie. We had, you know, some folk we did not get Peter, Paul and Mary, but we did a Buffy Sainte-Marie. I tried to remember- IG: 1:09:26 Is not, you know, Simon and Garfunkel out of that tradition? I mean [crosstalk] FP: 1:09:30 They may have been, they may have been out of that tradition. I do not know. I do not know how I would categorize. [crosstalk] IG: 1:09:35 So let us talk about, let us talk about Sir Rock came to the fore and with it. You know, social change, political change. How alive were you? FP: 1:09:46 When I got to Binghamton? The-the civil rights movement was the way we defined the Civil Rights Movement looking back on the 1960s from today's perspective, was still in its infancy. There had not been the Detroit riots, Watts and the huge social unrest and social consciousness raising aspects of the civil rights movement, we were concerned about freedom riders being harassed in Mississippi, the death of three students marching the, you know, the fire hoses and dogs and what have you. We were there at the very beginning of the forced integration. Estes Kefauver, Little Rock and and-and, of course, the Old Miss opening its doors to Meredith [James Meredith]. I mean, that was the beginning. But remember, I got there in July of 1963 we took a bus to Washington in August of 1963 we were parked behind-behind I was standing for Martin Luther King. And who was not he-he-he is what everybody remembers for that, from that, what march on Washington because of that incredible speech. But he was not the headliner. We were there because Mahalia Jackson and so many others were going to be performing and what have you. And there were politicians talking about this, and the whole National Mall, from the Lincoln Memorial, where they were going to be speaking, all the way to the Washington Monument. Well, remember the-the Library of Congress is located behind the Capitol building, behind and where and where we are parked there, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, packed with people. You could not move from the Washington Monument, the reflecting pool completely surrounded. Then mobs of people in front of the Lincoln Memorial, where these speeches are being made. Loudspeakers all over the place, but the truth of the matter is, did not hear a thing. Did not hear a thing, got off the bus in the midst of packing crowds- IG: 1:12:31 Probably swept up with the fervor, with the- no? FP: 1:12:35 It was an event. It was it was a road trip adventure. IG: 1:12:38 It was a road trip. FP: 1:12:39 It was a road trip adventure. Yes, I thought that the fact that an entire race could be deprived of basic civil rights that I took for granted was horrific. Yes, I absolutely believe that how far out on a limb was I going to go to do something about that I did not have a vote. I was not going to parade up and down streets carrying a placard and have firemen of fire hoses at me. There are plenty of people who will. Okay, so, but I was, I was certainly, I was certainly both emotionally and philosophically involved in the Civil Rights in a broad array of civil rights issues. I remember at that time, there was a major lawsuit in the New York metropolitan area in northern New Jersey, because of blue laws, because the religious Jewish population celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday. They were business owners. They wanted to open their businesses on Sunday, and they were not permitted to, because of blue laws. That is a civil rights issue. There were a lot of those at the time. Clearly the majors, nobody was getting lynched. No, you know there were, and they could vote, and they could bring lawsuits in court, and so I am not trying to make the comparison, but the concept of the civil rights as a movement, you-you create an environment in which every citizen is entitled to their rights, every citizen is entitled to their rights, so it spreads. So, you pick the biggest and most egregious of the offenses to people's civil rights, and that will expand to everybody else. If you start nitpicking on the smaller issues of meaningful issues, you are not going to reach the big ones. So, I understood, completely, understood where the focus was. I was not I was not going to Montgomery [crosstalk] IG: 1:14:38 -around in the (19)60s. FP: 1:14:40 I think it started probably in the late (19)50s or early (19)60s, possibly before I got there, but it was already in full bloom by the time I was by the time I arrived at Harpur College, it was in full you heard about it when I was in high school. Uh, you heard about Pete Singer singing, If I had a Hammer, and that sort of thing, and you read about why and what have you, but it did not have the same impact until you were living among students, some of whom were really committed, who took busses down to Mississippi, who took busses to Alabama and what have you, that was not me, but I fully respected what they were doing, because philosophically, I supported that, but I was not going that was not me. I could not, I could not bring myself to do something. IG: 1:15:33 What are some of the, you know, major political events of the time that you remember that you know, the Kennedy assassination. FP: 1:15:41 Kennedy assassination was big. Kennedy assassination was November of 19 November 21 or 22nd of 1963 I was I was at the at the Student Center and watching my watch. IG: 1:16:00 We run a little bit. FP: 1:16:01 Do not worry about the time. I was watching my watch, and I realized, up, I got to go. I have a chem lab. And you walked across science one was the science building. There was no science 234, or five and six at the time, just science one and-and there was one wing of science, one which has doors even today that open up onto the peace squad that you go through. And it is a traditional lecture hall with the big sliding in those days, I think it was green boards, actually. They did not have whiteboards in those days. It was green with the yellow chalk, but they slid up and down. This was the big deal in any case, and but the door right next to it that took you into that hall, that led you down to where the LA the laboratories were for chemistry, and I had a chem lab at that time, and I am walking across the Peace Corps, and all of a sudden, my friend Tony Oliveri comes, who was in the lab with me, comes running out the hall, and he sees me, and he was like [inaudible] telling me "What is up? Did you hear?" "Hear what?" "President has been shot?" Whoa, well, what goes through your mind? President has been shot? Guys got a wound. To take them to the hospital. It will be fine, right? We walk into the lab together. We start our chemistry lab. The professor is not there. Their grad assistants are running the lab, maybe not even grad assistants. They may have been upperclassmen, I do not recall, and we had very specific assignments that we were supposed to be doing, but the radio is going. We never had the radio going. You did not play music during labs in those days. The radio is going and listen to news reports and, and, and I remember, never forget, all of a sudden, some on the radio that they make an announcement, wait, stop. And somebody's talking to somebody who had just come out of the hospital. This was in Dallas, and said "Priest is up there with him administering last rites." I remember this specifically. IG: 1:18:21 Just a few hours later. FP: 1:18:22 Yes. IG: 1:18:23 Right? FP: 1:18:23 That is correct. And we look at each other, this is not some shoulder wound. And of course, he died. [crosstalk] John Kennedy, I mean, this was Camelot. We were young. We were there were there were future Republicans of America, or whatever they but everybody, I mean, you did not have the divisiveness that you were a young person. Kennedy was an inspiration. This was the youngest president. I mean, because we had grown up, if you remember when I was born, right after FDR passed away. FDR passed away on April 12 in 1945 and so Truman was the President when I was born, October 1945 and then Eisenhower, and-and-and then, and then Kennedy. So, Kennedy was, you know, 30 years younger than anybody else who had been in the White House during our-our relatively [crosstalk] IG: 1:19:38 Charismatic and [inaudible]. FP: 1:19:40 Absolutely, so this, it was an incredible, incredibly devastating phenomenon at that at that time, we had never lived through anything like it. I mean, the comparisons people started talking about the Lincoln assassination and-and- IG: 1:20:00 Everyone remembers that moment. I remember I was in grade school, and I remember the teacher coming in, you know, and sort of huddling with another teacher. And, you know, the news leaked out somehow that he was shot, and then a few hours later, we found out that he was assassinated. All the children were allowed, were let go, you know, and we could go home. But I remember, I remember that day so clearly. Everyone I have spoken to remembers that moment so clearly, because it was a shock. [inaudible] FP: 1:20:34 Absolutely. How could this happen here? Yeah, it was absolutely a shock. And when they announced that he had died, that is when we had been in the lab for about two hours, and that is when the whoever lab assistant or senior or whatever said, "I think we better wrap it up, close up." So yeah, I remember that very clearly. That was so we had the civil rights movement going on throughout my entire time in Binghamton, and then right on through my old graduate school, we had Kennedy assassination, and immediately followed by, and I do not think it, had he not been assassinated, we would never have had those great society measures passed. Lyndon Johnson became the president and-and he pushed through Congress, you know, massive social legislation, the Voting Rights Act and the war on poverty and-and what have you. It had long term economic consequences. The guns and butter economy had massive consequences, of course, but-but at the time this progressive legislative agenda got through in ways that we never thought would get through had Kennedy survived. IG: 1:21:53 Why is that? Explain it. FP: 1:21:55 Well, the main reason was that the Kennedy assassination raised public awareness for the loss of this progressive agenda that was not going anywhere. And then the vice president becomes the president. And the Vice President was everybody knew he ran the Senate. When Lyndon Johnson was in the Senate, he was the boss. Everybody knew that. So, everybody knew he was going to ram through these things, that as vice president, he was not likely to be able to get through the Kennedy assassination disarmed the loyal opposition. IG: 1:22:34 Interesting. FP: 1:22:36 And I remember there was one senator, never forget, a Republican senator, and not these were not bad people. The so-called fiscal conservatives of the time, remember New York State and California, each even then, were known, you know, as the blue states, using today's terminology, as bastions of liberal, progressive agendas. So, when you talk about the Republicans in New York State, Nelson Rockefeller was the long-term governor. Malcolm Wilson was the lieutenant governor for 3,4,5, terms. The Attorney General was Louis Lefkowitz, Republican the State Controller was Arthur Levitt, Democrat, and our senior senator from New York State was Jacob Javits, Republican. Well, by today's standards. By today's standards, their politics was slightly to the left of Bernie Sanders. IG: 1:23:47 Really? FP: 1:23:47 And they were Republicans. You know- IG: 1:23:49 It was a very different, very understanding of [inaudible] FP: 1:23:52 Very different, absolutely-absolutely, very different. So-so trying to- IG: 1:24:01 How interesting, so how interesting everything that you are saying, and especially you know this, this the political climate of the time. FP: 1:24:11 But I will never forget, there was during the time when Johnson was pushing through these measures in Congress that involved big government expenditures and the and the things that you hear what the Republican leadership in the Congress and in the Senate these days have to say about proposals to spend money on progressive agendas, strange, what you consider progressive these days? Today, a progressive agenda is rebuilding the infrastructure of the nation. Go figure, whereas conservative agenda is building a border wall. Think about this for a second. But in those days, the biggest issue they had the word. Thing they could say about Johnson's Great Society, billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you are talking about real money. But-but it was, it was, I mean, Sam Rayburn was the Speaker of the House. I mean, it was a totally different world. It was genteel. Politics could be dirty in those smoke-filled rooms. And we know that from our history books, from First, from accounts that that we, that we have but-but in public, the public specter was of gentlemanly disagreement. It may have been serious disagreements, but people were civil. World has really, really changed anyway. The next big issue that came to dominate, academic life for-for the next decade was Southeast Asia, and that had just begun to percolate while I was in college, and I really did not think much of it. I mean, we had read the ugly American we knew about the domino theory. Then John Foster Dulles, Secretary of State, who had promoted that, that philosophy that led us into our involvement and a lot of misguided approaches, although you could not know it at the time, but from about 1965 on, it became increasingly clear, that the nation was becoming embroiled in a foreign conflict that was going to bubble over in domestic politics and in social unrest. Of course, it came to its peak in the 1969 in (19)68, (19)68 in Chicago, in (19)68 during the conventions, and then through (19)69 and-and, of course, intermixed with all of that incredible assassination became unbelievable. You know, Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy got shot. Of course, Martin Luther King was assassinated, I mean, and that was not something you-you heard about in the United States. Kent State, absolutely. So now I was already out. I had already graduated. But the reason I mentioned that was because prior to my graduating, this was either in late (19)65 or early (19)66 there was a selective service qualifying exam. We all had went from the time you turned 18, you had to have a draft card, a Selective Service ID number and a draft card. Dutifully, we all got our draft cards. You had not yet entered the period when people were burning. That had not yet happened, but if you were, if you were planning to continue in school after you graduated, in order to maintain your student deferment, you had to score above a certain threshold on the Selective Service qualifying exam. They were not going to give graduate net professional school students a free ride out of the draft, just because you were in school. IG: 1:29:07 Right, I did not know that part. I thought it was just because you were in school. No, you have to score a certain was it like an SAT? FP: 1:29:14 Yes. Oh, more like a GRE I mean, you were college graduates are going to be right. Of course, yes. So, within a matter of within a matter of two months, I took the Selective Service qualifying exam, I took the MCATs and I took the GREs. I took the MCATs only because my father told me to do it. I had already decided I was going to graduate school in economics. I said, "Do not worry that I will be a doctor, just a different kind of a doctor." But I, but I took off. I took four exams Selective Service and cats. GRS, OH. Were three different exams, and in relatively short order, obviously I did well enough to maintain my student deferment while I went off to graduate school. And that was the end of my Harpur College student career. But as I say at that time in that during the late, late 2005 and the first half of 2000 I graduated in June of-of (19)66 I graduated in June of (19)66 and so during that year, [inaudible] called my senior year. She called my senior year the-the phenomenon of the Vietnam War and its impact on student life and on society in general was just beginning to enter our consciousness in a big way. The first big way was, you were not going to graduate school if you do not do well on this exam, you were going into the army. Oh, you were going to be drafted army, navy to the armed services. And so that was my first big awakening to the reality of what was going on around me that I was not paying that much attention to. Then, once I was in graduate school, once I was up in Albany. I mean, there were mass demonstrations all the time. I was never a demonstrator. No different with regard to Vietnam as it was to the civil rights movement. These were issues about which I cared deeply and emotionally, philosophically, but I did not put myself on-on the line for good or ill. IG: 1:31:44 Did you feel sorry for the men who were drafted and that they did not have the [crosstalk] FP: 1:31:49 I was teaching when I was in Albany. I had a teaching fellowship. I ref I refuse to give a male student anything less than a C I do not care how badly they did, because I was afraid- IG: 1:32:02 [crosstalk[ passing grade? FP: 1:32:03 It was the last, well, D is, D was a passing grade, but it would not be enough to for them to maintain their student department. IG: 1:32:11 I see. FP: 1:32:11 And these were undergrads. So-so it did affect the way I conducted my classes, and yeah, so it became, it became a big it became a big deal. Now I will tell you that as a graduate student, I developed relationships with professors that I had heard some of my undergraduate classmates had when they were when we were back at Harpur, but I never had those relationships in graduate school, I would have dinner at a professor's house. There were two or three other professors who, themselves were going out for a drink, and would invite me along, and we would sit and we would talk theory, and we would pull out napkins, remember the famous Laffer Curve and what have you. Well, that is where these things came from, groups of scholars sitting around tables, having a beer, but also talking about and it ended up getting me some interesting, interesting opportunities. I was there was there was a PBS, there was a PBS series back in the late (19)60s called controversy, controversies in social sciences or something like this. And this particular and there was a and there was a particular episode called controversies in economics, monetary policy and the Federal Reserve. IG: 1:33:52 That is very high-high, very high brow and very intellectual. I was watching Get Smart. FP: 1:34:01 Well, I watch Get Smart. I watch Get Smart too, but I was on that episode along with- IG: 1:34:07 You still have that clip? FP: 1:34:09 No, that is long that that is long lost. You cannot if, I mean, if anybody finds it on YouTube or something, God bless them. Was the late (19)60s, and it was the chairman of the it was the president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, who also happens to be the chairman of the Open Market Committee. And there were a couple of professors, and there was me, a graduate student, studying monetary theory and-and-and this was filmed in the WNW students [crosstalk] IG: 1:34:47 When did PBS begin in Albany? FP: 1:34:50 Oh, that I forget. I do not know but, but this was filmed in New York City or in, actually, in New Jersey. Was actually filmed in New Jersey. It was not, it was, was not an in New York City Park--was at a studio, and it was WNT the channel 13, their studios, and that was [crosstalk]. Yeah, and, and that is- IG: 1:35:17 So, tell me, you know, we were, we have been talking for a while. Tell me about just you know, the trajectory of your career. What are some of the highlights you went to NYU- FP: 1:35:29 Well, I graduated from Binghamton, and my first stop Graduate School of Public Affairs at SUNY, SUNY Albany, I had been admitted to Columbia University. Again, it was always my go to but I would have to pay. In Albany, I had a fellowship. IG: 1:35:49 Right. That makes a difference, of course, and you probably profited from that experience more. FP: 1:35:54 It was small, it was a smaller program, and it was, it was very good. So, I got my master's degree in in political economy at the Graduate School of Public Affairs, and I developed some great relationships with very famous economists. Morris Copeland, who had been at Cornell University, was recruited and came over to Albany at that time, Louis Saul, Louis Saul Kiefer and Franklin Walker and Jack Gelfand. I mean, these were very well-known economists in the literature that had been recruited during the Rock- before Rockefeller left New York State to become the vice president under Jerry Ford, he his personal legacy was going to be the State University of New York, and the state, you know, and the state legislator, legislature funded this incredible expenditure, building campuses, creating four University Centers at Stony Brook, Buffalo Albany and-and Binghamton to-to medical school. Stony Brook, at that time, I did not yet have a medical school. So, there are two medical schools of downstate and upstate or in Buffalo. So, three medical schools, law schools. I mean, they were building a university to rival the-the only school in scope, the only public university in scope that rivals was-was California. There were other better known state universities that the Michigan's, the Wisconsin's, you know, and what have you, of the world, but-but our university system was founded in 1948 Triple Cities College was founded in 1946 as you know, but it was a joint venture between NYU and Syracuse University, and there were two that they found at Utica College and Triple Cities College, and they founded those schools joint ventures in order to provide educational opportunities for returning GIS right after the war that was 1946. The school in Binghamton was purchased by this fledgling State University in 1948 and in 1950 changed its name to Harpur College. They created Harpur College in 1950 was located in Endicott in a Quonset hut, and-and gradually they moved with in 1950 they moved over to the mansion and-and then the rest is history. [crosstalk] Yeah, well, that those were those quad set hearts, exactly, and then, and then, by 1960 they started construction on the current campus. In the first building was that gym. IG: 1:38:39 So, tell me, tell me. Give me highlights of your career. You graduated- FP: 1:38:45 I left, I left. I graduated Albany and met my future wife. She- I did not have to graduate from Albany. I had my master's, but I was in the PhD program. I could have stayed, but she was- had graduated the same time that I got my master's. She got her bachelor's degree, and she was going to graduate school at the New School for Social Research, going for her doctorate in at that time, was a master's in in psychology at the New School. And I opted not to stay away from her. So, we decided to get married, which we did, and we moved into an apartment in Brooklyn, and she went to school at the New School. I went to work for the First Boston Corporation, and was admitted to the doctoral program at the Graduate School of Business Administration, now the Stern School at NYU and-and then I finished up my doctoral studies there while working for First Boston. I- IG: 1:39:58 What did you specialize in? [crosstalk] FP: 1:40:00 Well, First Boston was an investment bank. IG: 1:40:04 No-no, I meant your thesis. FP: 1:40:06 Oh, it was foreign capital flows. Foreign capital flows, basically a it was a modeling exercise to designed to measure forces that influenced our balance the capital funds side of the balance of payments, you have the balance of trade, goods and services, and then you have the rest of the balance of payments, which are capital flows that are offset or fail to offset, trade. And what are the forces that influence those everything from currency movement- IG: 1:40:41 [inaudible] like risk assessment? FP: 1:40:43 Not really. I mean, that is James Tobin risk assessment. That is that ultimately became Nobel Prize winning stuff for the economist who specialized in that and helped explain what goes on in the stock market. I wish I had studied that. There was no-no future business benefit from studying international capital flows, but I was more interested in the effects that exchange rate movements had on balance of payments, on costs of goods in the importing country, which were influenced not Just by the usual market forces that that influence prices. But something called effective tariffs. We know what a tariff is. Well, there are effective tariffs. That is the actual percentage of the selling price of the good, above the production cost of the good and profit. So, you have production cost, profit, and then some additional costs. Well, those additional costs may be more lower or higher than the so-called tariff, and what influences that, and what influence does those actual costs have on how those things are financed and how they were financed influences capital flows and capital flows, we know in this, even then, even in the 1960s the-the reality had already set in that interstate banking restrictions. We did not we did not have interstate bank in the United States meant that US banks were not going to be able to grow adequately to compete with the large international banking firms that had no such restrictions and-and there were other similar restrictions we had. We had a glass wall in Glass Steagall between investment banking and commercial banking and-and that limited growth, I think, in a good way, we should never have removed it. And we have seen the effects in the replay and then in 2007 and eight of the same kind of financial disaster that that that led to the Great Depression in the 1930s we could have had that again, because we removed from the fiduciary responsibilities of banks restrictions preventing them from gambling on the very volatile financial markets. IG: 1:43:17 So, but thank you for explaining this in a nutshell. I mean, this is a history and economics lesson for me. FP: 1:43:27 Bur-but the key point for me, the interesting point for me, was that we that foreign banks were not so restricted. And therefore, they could, they could dominate these international flows of funds. What did not occur to me at the time was that those capital flows could be used to influence elections and election outcomes and what have you the fact that Deutsche Bank has bankrolled what otherwise is a horrible business person. And not only horrible from a personality point of view, but actually business acumen wise, everybody in business knows that Trump is a horrible businessman, and he was always bankrupt and that he is totally financed by-by foreign capital flows. I did not know it at the time. That is not what I was studying. Oh, in New York, it was well, and they were saying [crosstalk] IG: 1:44:22 [inaudible] horrible business person. FP: 1:44:24 I mean, not just a horrible business person because he cheats, because he refuses to pay, and that sort of thing. IG: 1:44:29 I know that he was bankrupt. FP: 1:44:31 Oh, yeah, he has been bankrupted more times than virtually bankrupt, I know, but he is bankrolled. Yeah, Deutsche Bank owns him, and now Deutsche Bank is being investigated by the AG in New York, and for good reason, they could end up losing their US license to operate here, and they, in turn, are being bankrolled by a bunch of Russian banks who are who with whom, US citizens are banned from-from dealing because of sanctions. Oh, but I did not study any of this. I did not- IG: 1:45:04 You follow this. Did you teach in your career? FP: 1:45:07 Oh yeah-yeah. IG: 1:45:08 So, tell us [crosstalk] FP: 1:45:10 First, when I was in Albany and I was in the PhD program, but the famous booby prize, you get your master's degree after you finish your coursework and taking qualifying exams. So, but-but I had been teaching at a teaching fellowship, so I was teaching there, and in the summers, I actually had paid teaching assignments. And so, I was teaching at Albany. When I went to New York, I taught. I actually landed a teaching spot at the New School with Jeannie, my-my wife was-was going to school, and so I taught at the New School for Social Research. And then I and then, and we were living in Brooklyn at the time. We moved to Queens to Flushing, because she had graduated, got her master's degrees, and then she went on for her PD professional diploma at the- she switched from social psychology to educational psychology, school psychology and-and she went to St John's University, which is in Queens, and so we moved to Flushing. IG: 1:46:11 Yeah, you mentioned that in [inaudible]. FP: 1:46:13 And I did not feel like traveling from Wall Street out to Flushing and then back into town to 14th Street to teach at the New School. Our next-door neighbor in the building where we were living in Flushing was a professor of accounting at Hofstra University, so he invited me to come down and talk to the department chairman. The next semester I was teaching money and banking at Hofstra University, so I taught at Hofstra University for a year or two. Well, it was actually three semesters, so a year and a half and um, and uh, you know, I finished up my degree [coughs] worked for First Boston, and that went on until 1986. IG: 1:47:06 Mm-hmm, both the teaching and First Boston? FP: 1:47:09 Yes, I had an adjunct position during the entire time that I was working at First Boston. Primary role at First Boston was to serve the needs of clients. So, if a client was involved in a particular investment, for example, they were going to issue couple of 100 million dollars’ worth of corporate bonds in order to finance the purchase of another business and acquisition. What is the economic outlook for the nation? Should we be financing with fixed rate bonds? Should we be doing this with bank loans? Should we be doing this with variable rate instruments? What is your forecast for interest the interest rate outlook over the foreseeable future, the next six months, the next year, the next 10 years, within the firm, what, what does-what do the economic prognosticators claim is likely to be the course of economic events, because first, Boston also took large positions in the securities markets, particularly the government securities markets, primary deal in securities and-and so they wanted to know both our own personal thoughts and whatever research we were doing, but primarily we were information gathering. So, there were big research firms Chase econometrics, DRI Data Resources Incorporated. That is Otto Eckstein's firm and a number of other large models of US economic activity. There are economists at all the large commercial banks and whatever they are all generating these forecasts, our job was to gather all of this intel, put it into a meaningful, compact presentation, and share most likely our thoughts and the and then spread the whole range for the investment bankers, because they are the ones who are going to put the firm's money on the line. IG: 1:49:16 Right-right. [inaudible] can make recommendations [crosstalk] FP: 1:49:19 Absolutely, well, I would not be in a position to make a recommendation invest in this or invest in that. I might say I think interest rates are going to be going up. Certainly, the preponderance of information suggests that is going to be the case. And I have done some research on my own, it suggests that, in the past, when these circumstances arise, that is what happens. That is how the Federal Reserve responds. So, if I were you, I would not be investing in fixed income instruments. I might be focusing my attention more on real estate or whatever. But I am not the one who makes the decision to put stuff on the line. So, I have told you what-what the evidence shows. You still have to make, which is why I get paid a modest salary, and you make millions of dollars. I am staff you are [inaudible] and-and that was all that, but that is what I that is what I did there. And also, from time to time, clients would ask us to visit them. They were having a dinner for the local community. It could be, it could be a university where they, you know, the First Bank One of Ohio is headquarters, you probably know, in Columbus, and they are very closely tied to Ohio, to Ohio State and-and so they fund a center the-the-the Bank One, Bank Ohio, in those days now it but Bank Ohio a center for the study of economic developments at the Ohio State University, and-and they, and they are holding this big conference, and they have got several different economists we would like you to be among that list. Please come and give a speech on the economic outlook or on whatever. Well, they are entitled to that. That is, that is a service that first, Boston provides to their clients. IG: 1:51:23 You would give these- FP: 1:51:24 So, I would go and I would give a lecture or a speech or what have you. I was, I had a lot of dinner meetings in New York and around the country. I mean, their first Boston, did a lot of business with state governments, particularly the retirement funds-funds or the endowments of the public universities and what have you and-and so part of that service included my going out, and- IG: 1:51:53 What was your title? You were- FP: 1:51:54 Vice President, Economist. Vice President, Economist. In the economist department, it was called the, not the economics department. Was called The Economist department. Singular, there were, there were about five of us. I was not the boss. Albert [inaudible] was the boss. But and I did. I did a speech once at the western states, State Treasurers Conference, treasurers from all of the Rocky Mountain and West Coast states, including Alaska, came and we met in in Las Cruces, New Mexico. IG: 1:52:35 That is where my daughter lived. FP: 1:52:38 And I gave a presentation out there, speech, and we did other conferences like that around that that was not really research. That was entertainment. We were the after-dinner entertainment, make no mistake about that, but that is a service that-that investment [crosstalk] IG: 1:52:56 Meanwhile, your teaching career- FP: 1:52:58 Well, it was- always as an adjunct. IG: 1:53:00 At Hofstra? FP: 1:53:02 Well, it did not actually, no, it did not end at Hofstra. But there is a twist to this whole tale, because all of this continued until 1986 and 1986 everything came tumbling down. I got, I was diagnosed with a non-Hodgkin lymphoma, and the-the um, the treatment was expected to be successful. They had good success rates, no guarantees, of course, but-but it was a very intense six months. Let us put it that way, between radiation, chemotherapy and-and a few surgical procedures because they were cutting out lesions that had popped up on the surface and-and I ultimately, I ultimately left First Boston. I could not walk across the street in the amount of time from the time that the-the walk sign came on, I could not make it across the street before the light had changed. I mean, the serious nerve damage, it was, it was rough. I mean, I could not really function very well in a work. IG: 1:54:17 And you were just a young man. You were- FP: 1:54:18 I was not that young, 40, 40, [crosstalk] but uh, but um, I, but I got through it, and I survived and-and moved on. My wife was an educator. She gotten her degree in School Psychology. She was working in Cornwall schools and then Pearl River School System up where we lived in Rockland County, and so our whole circle of friends tended to be a mixed bag of people from the financial community and people from the educational, K-12 educational community. And so, the questions were, are you going back to First Boston or to the world of finance? And at the time, I had three young children. My oldest was born in (19)81 my youngest was born in (19)87 and the middle one was born in (19)83 they were relatively young. I- working at first boss, and I never saw them. Sounds always traveling. Was always on the road. Investment banking hours are seven to seven. IG: 1:55:39 Yes, I know. FP: 1:55:39 It is, you know, I just never saw them and-and here, I just had a, what in my fragile psychological state I call a near death experience. So, physicians would tell you know that it was highly unlikely there is a 90 percent cure rate. So, you know, it was very unlikely that- IG: 1:56:01 You had, you had the experience of a near death experience, or just the fact of [crosstalk] FP: 1:56:05 Just my, just the fact of being diagnosed with-with a word that starts with a C. IG: 1:56:11 Of course. FP: 1:56:11 It is a cancer. So-so-so I am reevaluating what I am going to do with the rest of my life, and one of Jean's friends, for some strange reason I will never understand this, educators tend to marry educators. There are exceptions, and I am one of them, but many of our friends, wife was a teacher. Husband is a teacher or administrator, or some, you know, some, some can both some connection to education. Why that is, I do not know. But one of the gentlemen who was not Jean's [inaudible] was friend with the wife who was a guidance counselor, if I am not mistaken, at Pearl River High School. Her husband was a math or science teacher at one of the high schools in New York City. And says, "Why do not you become a teacher? They are desperate, desperate for teachers." So, I went down to 65 Court Street in Brooklyn, and I walked in to the office of recruitment. I walked over to took a number, walk over to the desk, "Yes, sir. How can we help you?" "Well, I was thinking about a second career in education as a teacher." "Very good. What have you got? What-what can you teach? What are you, what are you equipped to teach? Do you have any educate teaching licenses?" I said, "Look, I have been teaching on the college level for the next for the last 20 years. Well, last 15 years anyway, and I have a PhD in economics. I thought I would be a high school social studies teacher." By the time, by the time he finished laughing and pulled himself up from the floor, and came back over and says, "Social studies teachers are a dime a dozen. What else have you got? Let me see your college vita, not interested in graduate school." Pull out my college. I was told, what brings a whole bunch of documents you have to [crosstalk]. IG: 1:58:38 Can I guess? FP: 1:58:40 Yes. IG: 1:58:42 Biology. FP: 1:58:44 "Either biology or chemistry, science, high school science, biology or chemistry. Absolutely, that is what we need. We have a shortage. Yes, and you are qualified, except that you do not have the ED credits. We have a program. It is called the fast track to education. You will set you up teaching science. There are some exams you have to go through." In those days, they had something called the board of examiners. New York City independently licensed teachers in those days, separate from New York state licensure, and it was actually more challenging to get a New York City license than it was to get a New York State license. But you have got to take this exam, and you have got to sit through this board, and you got to do this. You got to do that. You are going to have to take a laboratory test. Now. You got to remember the last time I was in a biology lab or chemistry lab was when I was at Harpur College. IG: 1:59:38 Yes. FP: 1:59:39 [laughs] And that is 20 years ago. IG: 1:59:41 How did you feel? FP: 1:59:42 I pulled out a review book. There were review books for these tests. IG: 1:59:47 So, you were determined? FP: 1:59:48 Oh yeah. And I looked through them, and I said, I know this stuff. And I went to all the exams. IG: 1:59:54 [inaudible] thought about giving up that illustrious career that you had it for [crosstalk] FP: 1:59:58 Thrilled. IG: 1:59:59 And teaching at Hofstra? FP: 2:00:03 I could still do that, [inaudible] and by the way, there is more to the story, because that I come back to, that is quite all right, okay, so I, so I my first teaching assignment is at the Langston Hughes High School on 18th Street. I am teaching chemistry, and-and I get a call from District 12 in the Bronx. They are developing a computer science program for elementary and middle schools in that community, school district, and from this office of recruitment. Among all the other things, there was a lot of computer technology. Because ay First Boston, we were at the forefront of modern computer education interestingly enough, because when you have to teach investment bankers how to use a computer and how to learn from a computer you are well equipped to teach in elementary school how to how to use a person the new personal computers. Oh, yeah, that role of teaching people how to use personal computers, the IBM XTS and ATS and what have you teaching all of the sales, of course, how to use their computers. Who do you think that fell to there was no in house IT department? [laughter] Eventually they developed big IT departments, but the first, the very first step that way. So, any case. So, this is all on my resume, and so get sent up. So, I ended up going up to the Bronx and-and I was hired to teach, to set up, to set up computer labs. And I had literally an unlimited budget with Apple, and I was getting all of these early Apple-Apple two computers, and then the GS is, and then the Macs and the setup computer labs. IG: 2:02:04 This was in early (19)90s? FP: 2:02:06 This was in the late (19)80s and early (19)90s, yes-yes. IG: 2:02:12 And to all of these apples, and we were just coming to education, to the universities, I remember. FP: 2:02:19 Well, it was, it was very interesting. Apple differed dramatically from IBM, not just because the computer architecture and the chip themselves were different, but because Apple said it is not going to be hardware driven, we are going to provide this hardware virtually at our cost of production. Practically give it away, because the monies in the software. That, of course, is exactly what Microsoft, what Bill Gates said IBM idiots had the opportunity to own that d- that disk operating system that Microsoft had developed. And they said, "No, we lease it" because the monies in the hardware. No bad, one of IBM's worst business decisions ever. But long story short, I ended up going from the Bronx back to Manhattan. I went to work for district 12 or district 75 which is the city-wide program for special education, and doing the same thing, teaching computers to developing, building computer labs and teaching students how to use computers and teaching teachers how to integrate computer application. [crosstalk] No, the software was widely plenty of vendors producing excellent stuff for me to sit down and do that. I might as well go to work for one of the vendors and produce the software. But the commercially available software was excellent, and getting better every day was no point. But somebody had to set up the lab, somebody had to teach teachers how to how to use this. Somebody had to teach the kids how to use it. And so-so that was me, and that went on until 1998. 1990 and in the meantime, I came fully certified. And what have you. 1998 the superintendent of district 75 city white programs called me into the office and says, you need to be an administrator. I cannot have you working on a teaching line, doing what you do. So, I became a special education administrator, and I had to go to school. So, I-I went to school. I went to College of New Rochelle prior to their financial collapse recently, although this snap. and back. Thank goodness, because it is actually a very good school. But I went there because they had a fast-track program to become an administrator, school administrator and-and then I got my New York state license as an administrator, all of it that was in the evenings, because I was working during the day. Then I became an administrator, eventually at my own school, which was located ready for this 88th Street between Park and Lex. So I was, I was 30 blocks up, right down the block from the Guggenheim. Guggenheim is right there. And while I was that, and once, once, I was ensconced up there. And that basically went from 1998 until I retired in 2011. IG: 2:05:48 Did you enjoy this part of your career more? You know- FP: 2:05:52 That is like, that is like, believe it or not. And I have used, I have been asked that question. I basically had two careers, investment banking, with the side gig of adjunct teaching of economics, and then K to 12 education, with an emphasis of special education, but also a side gig, because, and this was the thing I told you I was going to get back to. I was recruited to teach at both Mercy College and Turo College. At Mercy College, I was teaching education, special education to prospective teachers, undergraduates. And at Turo, I was teaching experienced teachers in Supervision and Administration, preparing them to get licenses as building a supervised assistant principal. [crosstalk] So I was teaching, so I had that adjunct gig go throughout my education career as well. So, the question you asked these two careers that I had [crosstalk], two 20-year careers, which, thinking back on it, which did I like better? Which one did I and the and I use this analogy before, because they have been asked that question before? How do you choose between son number one and son number three or son number two? I cannot I thoroughly enjoyed both. I have loved my careers. Both. Got a lot of self-satisfaction out of both. Um, and- IG: 2:06:39 What do you think it is the quality in you? And this is, you know we are going to ask, I ask everybody you know, what lessons did you learn from your life that you can share with students? What is the you know? What are, what are the qualities, what is the mindset of somebody who equally loves these extremely different uh- FP: 2:08:03 I had opportunities. I had, I personally had opportunities to move into these two particular careers under different circumstances. It might have been very different careers, and it I believe, I cannot prove it, because it did not happen, but I believe it to be the case that if I had gotten involved in a different career, I would have ended up loving it as well, putting myself into it [crosstalk] So it is just the way I am that I get involved in something, I throw myself at it, and I develop a relationship with that field of study, with that career, with that activity and-and appreciate and develop a great appreciation for it. So, it is less about the particular careers and more about the fact that there were two different careers. There could have been three, there could have been four, or there could have been two that were totally different, but I believe I would have been pretty much psychologically in the same place I am today, having had two successful careers and having enjoyed them both, what I would tell anybody else, first of all, because of primarily of my adjunct teaching, I believe in career oriented education on the graduate level, I believe in a liberal arts background prior to getting that professional training, because it opens your eyes to so many opportunities about which you may not be aware which professional training are you going to get when you decide I am going to be a teacher and I am going as an undergraduate to get an elementary education background, you have divorced yourself from a world of possibilities. I love K to 12 education, and I am and I love teachers, and I really believe that is an excellent career choice for many people. But how do you know as an 18- to 22-year-old that that is what you want to do for the rest of your life? At the age of 22 four years have gone by. You have been exposed to the world now. If you still feel that way, get that professional education. Go for those teaching credentials. Spend two years. Get a master's in education. That is great. Do not do it as an undergraduate. And I have taught the people who did it as an undergraduate, and that so many of them are very good teachers, but it is like a thoroughbred who runs races with blinders on to keep their eyes focused on the track. They do great running down the track. Unfortunately, they will never be able to pull a fire truck or-or run in a rodeo or do anything else, but this because that is what they have been exposed to, and they do not have a clue as to what else is out there. You want to become an accountant. Wonderful. I went to the Stern School, and a lot of the people at the Graduate School of Business Administration were studying accounting and Advanced Accounting, becoming CPAs and MBAs and what have you excellent. Get a liberal arts education. Know what the world has in store for you. Four years later, you decide, you know, I took an accounting course as an undergraduate. I took a business course as an undergraduate. I really that is where my interest lies. I am going to go to graduate school at Business Administration. I am going to focus on accounting on to get my CPA and what have you. It is not a waste of time. Do not go as an undergraduate to become an accountant. You graduate as an undergraduate accountant. Now you have still got to go for another two years before you can take the CPA exam. You could have done it in exactly the same amount of time, and your exposure to the world would have been so much greater. I am a firm believer in a liberal arts education and save professional training for later, for-for later, because it is not that much later. It really is. It seems when you were 18 years of age that it is that much later, but it really is not. So, I-I loved, with the benefit of hindsight, my broad-based education. I am not a great fan of mandates, but there are certain requirements for getting an undergraduate education that are not often enforced and I personally, and that may just be me, but after the fact, I very much value the fact that I was forced to take a course in anthropology, a course in sociology, which courses that I would Not in a million years, have chosen on my own. Where else would I have read Argonauts of the Pacific? Bronowski, so classic. I mean, you know, but you know where you know. This is important. This is if you are going to be educated, be educated, at least exposed to the world, and then narrow your focus to your interests. Well, how do you know what your interests are at the age of 18? When I was 18, I was going to go away to college to become a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer, an accountant. That is it. That is all there was no that is not all there was. And so, to the next generation. And by the way, my kids, my son, Jordan, as I said, my middle son, he went to Binghamton. He entered Harpur College. He lived at Hinman, went to that Hinman program of literature, and whatever it was that first year, got involved. His involvement at school was in the essay. He was the president of NSA my son, Jordan, as well as and then he went on to MIT, got a master's and a doctorate in engineering at MIT, and today he and he ended up focusing his doctoral dissertation in this area of research was in health systems. It is engineering systems, or systems engineering, and with a particular emphasis on health systems, and he was the director of process improvement for Maine Health, which is a large hospital management company in New England, and in fact, we are very good friends. He has become very good friends with the now soon to retire at the end of this year, Dean of Watson. Uh. And during these years, Jordan was routinely consulting with Watson about the health-health management systems programming of Watson here in Manhattan. And he was, he was part of that. So that is my oldest son. He went, he went to Cornell. My many cousins who went to Cornell. Cornell was one of the places where the educated side of our family, my uncles, who were college graduates and their children, all went to Cornell. So, I that is why I went. That is why, when I was applying to an Ivy I applied to Columbia. I was not going to Cornell because that is where all my cousins were, but my son wanted to go to Cornell. He went to Cornell. He ended up meeting and marrying his wife at Cornell. They now live in Boston. He is an attorney. And my youngest son also went to Cornell. He went to Cornell and became a meteorologist. Studied meteorology there, went out to the University of Colorado Boulder, which is where Noah is located. And they work for Noah and for Lasp. Lasp is the laboratory of Atmospheric and Space Physics. IG: 2:16:16 Does he have a graduate degree? FP: 2:16:18 Got a PhD, and he was, he was he now, he was teaching at Columbia, but he just moved about a year and a half ago up to Cambridge. At Harvard University, they have, they have an incubator, just like many of the schools do, and he is involved in a startup at-at the incubator at Harvard in data science. IG: 2:16:45 That is going to be a very big field. FP: 2:16:47 He is in this data science, and they are developing models and programming and or what have you, and-and that. And that is, that is what he is doing. [crosstalk] Incredibly proud of them all, but they all have one thing in common. [crosstalk] they all have one thing in common, and I do not mean the same parents. They all started their post high school educational careers in broad based liberal arts education, and they are all well-educated. So, they are not just top flight professionals. They are well educated. They are well educated citizens of the world. And that is important for me. That is what gives me the greatest pride, that plus the fact that they have jobs actually, they are actually making money so and they all own their own homes and-and they are not that old. I mean, you know, IG: 2:17:48 It has been really a pleasure talking to you. I think that now we should think of wrapping up our conversation together. Do you have any concluding remarks? FP: 2:18:00 Well, the project itself, when I was first approached, and when you first sent me, this goes back September, I think. But it was before, it was before homecoming, and-and informed me that that the library was initiating this project and-and that you were going to be putting together a history of the (19)60s. I thought back about my life and how much of it? And there has been a lot of it. I am suddenly three years old, so there has been a lot of life that followed my Harpur College experience. And, you know, I am not an architect, I am not an engineer, but it is fairly well known that any successful edifice rests squarely on a sound foundation, and Harpur College gave me that foundation. I am incredibly proud of that background, and over the course of my life, I mean, I have met people who knew about Harpur College when Harpur College was a tiny little liberal the liberal arts college of the state university system, a tiny little school. I-I was a student at Harpur, a senior at the time, and I was working at a I mentioned to you that I finance my some of my passionate expenses, like owning an automobile, to you and that sort of thing with my summertime earnings at a boy’s camp and one of the youngsters in my, in my cabin when I was working at a boy’s camp, was chip Fisher. And you might say, well, who is chip Fisher? Well, Chip Fisher is Avery Fisher's son. So, I got to meet Avery Fisher and his wife. Avery Fisher himself was an engineer and an acoustic engineer and the designer Hi Fi equipment and all of that sort of thing. His wife was a lover of the arts. I did not know it at the time, when I was a student at Harpur College, we had artists in residence, the Guarneri Quartet-Quartet. She was the one who got paid the bill. And I did not have a clue, and I ended up meeting her. I said, "Well, I am a senior at Harpur College. “She looked at me, "Harpur the Guarneri [The Guarneri String Quartet]." [laughter] So all I can say is, no, not everybody in the world needs to go to Binghamton University. It is a great school, but anybody who is going to pursue education for the sake of learning has my vote. Do it. Get an education, spring out into your professional careers, study for your professions and what have you. Once you know what you want, once you develop your passions, but give yourself the opportunity, an expansive opportunity, to explore lots of opportunities, lots of passionate things to do in this world, explore them, and then pick the passions that you have from that array and-and then go for it absolutely. So that is my those are my concluding remarks. Harpur was an excellent jumping off point for me, and sound undergraduate education is a great jumping off point for anybody. But explore your passions while you are while you are young, and then pursue your professional career. Do not do it backwards. IG: 2:21:59 Thank you very much. FP: 2:22:00 So that is [crosstalk] my pleasure. My pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Fred Neil Peck Subject The topic of the resource Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peck, Fred Neil ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-12-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Fred Peck, PhD.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-01-17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 142:03 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7e94a3071777684d0eb0bfa99af75d4.mp3 8a994229d63f53f87e811a60fa3fa103 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/808c42498383c5166cefd0b00e9adf10.jpg 046639a5421397e294b8330f956a7d17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-02-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Castaldo Year of Graduation 1963 Biographical Text Sue Castaldo, of Italian descent, grew up in Mechanicville, New York, and graduated from Harpur College in 1963 with a degree in sociology and anthropology. While at Harpur, she met her husband, Ed Yaw, and together they raised four children. Sue began her career in education, teaching in Vestal schools and later working with adult learners in Illinois. She went on to earn an MBA from Adelphi University in 1983 and transitioned into customer service at Bank of America in Phoenix. A successful entrepreneur, Sue owned and operated the retail candy business Candy in Bloom for 25 years. Now retired, she continues to live in Phoenix, Arizona. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in small business; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni from Mechanicville, New York; Harpur College – Alumni of Italian descent Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Sue Castaldo Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 2 February 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 So, please Sue. I would like you to introduce yourself, let us know where we are sitting, and what we are going to do. SC: 00:11 Okay, my name is Sue Costello. We are in Phoenix, Arizona. Where are we? So, um, ASU [Arizona State University] office, and we are going to be talking about my experiences at Harpur College in the (19)60s. IG: 00:24 Very good. Okay, so Sue. We can begin. And what year did you graduate? SC: 00:30 I graduated in (19)63. IG: 00:31 Where are you from? SC: 00:35 I am from Mechanicville, New York. IG: 00:37 Oh, and where is that exactly? SC: 00:40 It is between Albany and Saratoga, right on the Hudson, a little, tiny town. IG: 00:47 So, you know, where did your- just tell me a little bit about your background, who your parents were, what they did. SC: 00:58 My dad was a career army. So, we moved around a little bit. When I was a child, we lived in Panama for a while. Mom was a stay-at-home mom until they got, they got divorced when I was a when I was a freshman at Harpur, and she then worked in a local department store. They are both, they are both gone now. IG: 01:28 Are they from Mechanicville themselves? SC: 01:31 They were from Mechanicville. They were both of their parents. My grandparents came here as immigrants from Italy. Yeah, my small town is mostly Italian, mostly from the same area. IG: 01:43 How interesting. Where in Italy were they from? Do you know? SC: 01:49 Around the Naples area. IG: 01:52 Have you been watching the Elena Ferranti series on HBO? SC: 02:00 No. IG: 02:00 My Brilliant Friend, it is set in Naples. SC: 02:06 Oh. IG: 02:06 After the war. SC: 02:07 We are planning to go to Italy in September, so that would be nice. IG: 02:13 And so, you grew up there, and you lived in Panama for a while. How long were you in Panama? SC: 02:21 A couple of years, I was like, eight years old. IG: 02:23 Oh, I see. Where did you go to high school? SC: 02:28 In Mechanicville. IG: 02:29 Yeah, and- SC: 02:30 Yeah. IG: 02:30 A public school or? SC: 02:31 Yes-yes. I laugh at today's schools of 1000s. My graduating class had 140 students in it. IG: 02:42 So, do you think that you got a better education as a result? SC: 02:46 I feel like I got a good education. I had good teachers. I should have done better at Harpur, but I was experiencing so many things that I had never experienced before, coming from that little town. IG: 03:02 Well, we would like to talk about that. SC: 03:05 We had, like, I swear, two or three Jewish families in town, one black family. That was it. The rest of us were Italians. [laughs] And when I went to college, it was like, Oh my gosh. I did not even know what a bagel was, and I had so many Jewish friends, it was a brand-new experience for me. There were not- I remember two, one black person, one person from India, one person from Barbados, and they were all friends of mine, but that is it. Harpur was like, what 400, 600 students when I, when I started, IG: 03:52 Tell me a little bit about I am very interested in your Italian community in Mechanicsville. SC: 03:58 No mechanics. There was only one mechanic; there is no s [laughs]. IG: 04:00 Mechanic. SC: 04:01 Mechanicville. [laughs] IG: 04:04 Mechanicville. So, did you grow up hearing Italian spoken? SC: 04:11 Yes, yeah, yes, in grandparents’ homes, my mom did not speak Italian, but she spoke Italian to her-her parents. But we did not speak it at home, so I understood more than I spoke. IG: 04:27 But that is wonderful. SC: 04:29 It was wonderful. IG: 04:30 Yeah, so you grew up in two cultures. SC: 04:33 Yes-yes. IG: 04:36 Did you have an interest in learning more about your familial culture? SC: 04:46 No, because I felt like I knew quite a bit. IG: 04:50 Yes. SC: 04:52 Yeah, they were, I mean, they came over on the boat. [laughs] IG: 04:58 And so, you knew about the cuisine- SC: 05:01 Oh yes. IG: 05:01 -a little about the language, their histories- SC: 05:09 Not so much their histories. No, I have photos and, you know, and names, and but not so much about their histories. In my head, they came from that little, little smaller towns than where we were in Italy, you know, like close together. And I think even my great grandparents were from that those same little towns. IG: 05:40 Was education valued in your family? SC: 05:45 Not particularly, not in my extended family, yes, especially my dad's side. My mom only had one brother. My dad had six, and a couple of them were school teachers. One of them in particular pushed a lot, but yeah, but just extended family more than you know. IG: 06:12 So, what did they tell you about your schooling? Do they say do well, go to college. SC: 06:18 Oh yeah, oh yeah. Definitely pushed for college. And in my generation, I was the first one to go to college in my generation, and one of my brothers went to junior college. And my niece, who is 10 years younger than I, she went to college and she-she retired as a guidance counselor. So, there was some, but in my generation. IG: 06:56 So, what was your thinking about college as you were going to high school? Did you have a clear idea that this is what you would like to do, and what would you like to do? SC: 07:08 I really did not have an idea of what I would like to do. IG: 07:11 Right. SC: 07:13 I knew I wanted a liberal arts education. And I looked at Harpur because it had such a good reputation, it was close enough to home, but far enough away that I did not have to live at home. I wanted that experience. IG: 07:30 And is this the reason that you chose Harpur rather than Albany or Buffalo? SC: 07:37 You know, I cannot even remember if I applied to Albany. If I went to Albany, I would probably have to live at home, so that-that came into. Buffalo, forget it, no snow. I mean, there is enough snow in Binghamton. [laughs] But I did not know too much about this school, and when I got there, I was, "Oh, my God, what an experience that was." IG: 08:04 So, what were your first impressions? SC: 08:06 Mud-mud and boardwalks. There were only four dormitories, a student union. Maybe the library was there. Then, no classrooms, no, we took buses to Endicott. Had classes in old army barracks. We wore gloves to take tests. I mean, cold came through the windows and the walls. It was fun, but the first impression was definitely mud everywhere. IG: 08:48 But you saw, you know, a wooded area, or- SC: 08:52 It was gorgeous. IG: 08:53 It was gorgeous. SC: 08:54 It was beautiful. I mean, there were hills and trees all around the campus. IG: 08:59 And you arrived in early autumn? SC: 09:01 Yes. IG: 09:02 And you had never seen the campus before? SC: 09:04 No-no. IG: 09:06 So, you met students, and what were they like? SC: 09:14 They were just fantastic. I mean, they were all from New York City. They were worldly. They were people that I learned so much from. It was great. IG: 09:27 Like, what kind of things did you learn from? SC: 09:30 Well, I learned about the Jewish culture. IG: 09:32 Yeah. SC: 09:34 I learned about New York City. IG: 09:39 For example, give us a few examples. What did you learn about the Jewish culture? What did you learn about New York City? SC: 09:46 Well, the Jewish culture, I learned about their holidays, and I learned about their cuisine, and a little bit about their religion. I learned that they were; it might be the Mediterranean culture. They were so much like Italians in the fact that they were very family-oriented. Yeah, and they were smart. IG: 10:18 And they were very smart. SC: 10:19 They were very smart. And I looked around, and I said, "What am I doing here?" IG: 10:23 Yeah, did you feel that you had to catch up, that you had to study more as a result, or? SC: 10:32 I did. I did. But you know, I really did not do that. [laughs] IG: 10:32 Well, tell us what you did. SC: 10:38 I played a lot. IG: 10:39 Yeah. SC: 10:40 I was- somebody called me a few months ago that I had dated 50 years ago, and he said I was looking through the Harpur directory, I guess the newest one. And he said, "I found you when you were still alive." [laughs] He said, "I am glad you are still alive," but he remembered me as a Spitfire. I do not remember that, but I was- I had a small circle of friends, but I feel like I knew almost everybody, because I loved people, and I would go where there were people, and I just knew everybody. IG: 11:24 So, how did you know everybody? SC: 11:27 Through classes, and we would have what we called Hoot and Nannies sing-alongs. We would have movies in the lounge areas. IG: 11:36 Of the Student Union? SC: 11:39 And in the dorms and in the dorms. Yeah, I do not; you know, I did not participate in a lot of extracurricular activities, but I did belong to the Newman Club. IG: 11:52 And what was that? SC: 11:53 It was a Catholic organization, and I also was in the chorus for a while. So, I knew some people that way. IG: 12:04 What, what kind of music would you sing? SC: 12:06 You know, I cannot remember. IG: 12:08 Was it classical? Was it folk? Was it- SC: 12:11 Wasn't folk? No. IG: 12:13 Popular, or? SC: 12:14 It was a little bit of classical, a little bit of popular. You had to please everybody, I guess. IG: 12:22 So, you socialized a lot, and you met a, not really a diverse, but a different kind of student body, right? SC: 12:32 It was not very diverse. I mean, we did not have that many international students, but I made sure I got to know who they were. IG: 12:45 Did you have a sense of how they felt about being there among so many different people, or did you feel a kindred spirit to them? Because you felt, at first, you must have felt- SC: 12:58 I did not feel well. I may have, I may have. But the couple, I mean, they were so two of them in particular, were very outgoing, a fellow from India, he was a little more reserved, but the others just kind of fit in. They joined social clubs, and that is another thing I did not do. IG: 13:21 Why didn't you do that? SC: 13:22 To me, it was like a sorority. It was not sororities and fraternities, but-but it was, I just- it did not interest me. It just would not. IG: 13:35 What should interest you? What-what were your classes about, you know- SC: 13:39 Well, I started my major, ended up being sociology, with sociology, anthropology, and what I was going to do with that, I had no idea, but it sounded interesting to me. IG: 13:54 Was it interesting? SC: 13:55 It was, and I carried through all the way with it, all the way through, I did not change. IG: 14:00 So, are there any classes or professors that stand out? SC: 14:05 Oh yes-yes-yes, I wrote them down. You know what? I went through my yearbook. IG: 14:13 Okay. SC: 14:14 Because I did not think I would remember their names. I remembered their names, but I do remember who did what. Dr. Savage, in philosophy. I had never had a philosophy course. IG: 14:26 So, what kind of things- SC: 14:28 Absolutely- IG: 14:29 -he opened your mind to? SC: 14:31 Absolutely loved it. A lot of it was logic. And I had never been exposed to logic. And I have always been a very logical person. And he just explained it so well. And another one was Dr. Levin, and he taught a course in law, which fascinated me. I had taken an aptitude test once since, and they told me I should have been a tax lawyer. I guess that is where the logic comes in as well. And I really enjoyed his class. And there was an English class, Dr. Kasberg. I see these, and these were all freshman classes, and they were all taught in the old colonial building in Endicott. Have you been in that building? IG: 15:22 No. SC: 15:24 Have you seen that building? It is gorgeous. IG: 15:26 No. SC: 15:27 It was all run down then, though, and the classes were held upstairs, kind of in an attic, it was- IG: 15:33 And the barracks were also in Endicott. SC: 15:36 Yes-yes. IG: 15:37 Do you remember Bill Vogley from that time? SC: 15:41 I do remember that name. IG: 15:42 Name, because he also describes barracks, SC: 15:48 Cold. IG: 15:49 Cold and snow covering into the barracks. SC: 15:52 Wearing gloves. IG: 15:53 Yeah. SC: 15:53 But that is how you got to know everybody. You were crammed in these little buildings, and you- there was no place to go that was not, that was not a campus, you know, so you really did get to know everybody. IG: 16:08 Was there a bus to take you back to your dorms? SC: 16:11 Yes. IG: 16:12 Did any of the students drive their own cars? SC: 16:15 No, not until I do not remember anybody driving their own cars as a freshman, but as an upperclassman, I remember some, but I think most of them, the ones from New York City, did not know how to drive. They never had to drive. The ones who drove were the townies, and I knew so many of them. I do not know how I just people gravitate to me. They still do. I do not understand why, but I knew the very-very popular people, and I also knew the not-so-popular people, and we were all kind of friendly. IG: 16:59 So, you socialized with your classmates in the dormitories, but where else in town? SC: 17:13 We did we had a roller rink in Endicott that we could bus to you. I did that there was Pat Mitchell's ice cream, which I think is still there on Endicott, you are missing out. [laughs] And you know, typical college students, there was a bar in Endicott, I mean, in Binghamton, that was not very far from campus. IG: 17:42 What was it called? SC: 17:43 I cannot remember Sullivan's, and there is one, and there was one, and we used to play shuffleboard in that place, and we would go to a place in Johnson City. And I cannot remember the name of that one, but that is where we had speedies, and I think it is still there. IG: 18:02 What was the drinking age then? Did they check licenses? No? SC: 18:07 I do not ever remember them checking these. I do not, and I did have a circle offense that we went to church in Binghamton, and I even I started a group. There were people at church that wanted to do something, and I suggested, how about you adopt some college students and invite them to your homes? And- IG: 18:07 How nice. SC: 18:40 -like an adopt-a-grandmother kind of thing. And I had a group that went to this Mrs. Taylor's house on Pennsylvania Avenue almost every Sunday for fried chicken. IG: 18:51 Oh, how nice. SC: 18:52 It was so cool. I do not know how long it lasted. I cannot remember. IG: 18:57 So, you discovered organizational abilities in yourself, right? SC: 19:01 Yes. IG: 19:03 Did you know that you have them before? SC: 19:07 You know, I belonged to an awful lot of stuff in high school, but I do not think I myself organized anything. I was kind of a shy- I was a nerd. They know me in high school is, you know, a smart, a smarty. I was not that way in college. [laughs] I think if I got out with a C average, that was good. IG: 19:35 So, you, you know, any-any noteworthy academics that you can think of, in addition to those three profs that you mentioned. SC: 19:53 No, there were some I did not like at all. I had a calculus class that I went to one day and dropped out, mostly because I did not understand the subject right away. And the woman who taught the class was Indian, and I had a very hard time understanding her. So, I said, Okay, I do not need this class. So, I got out of that class. IG: 20:27 Um, was- were most of the professors’ locals, or were they from- they-they were from other countries? Was- SC: 20:40 They were not. I do not remember anyone from another country, except that-that math teacher, I think most of them were local. In fact, I worked for Professor Dodge. She was one of my sociology professors, and he had a couple of small children, and he needed help at you know, he and his wife needed help at home with the kids, and I remember doing some lighthouse work for them too. So, I did work, and that is another place I met a lot of people. I worked in the linen room. They would bring down their dirty linen, and I would give them clean linen. And I mean, and that was everybody in that dorm. IG: 21:27 So that was a way that you would make pocket money. SC: 21:30 Mm-hmm. IG: 21:31 Were you a Regents scholar? SC: 21:33 Yes. IG: 21:35 Do you remember what the college cost you at all? Were you- was it paid for it entirely? SC: 21:44 You know, I kind of remember $12 in credit hours. That sounds about right? IG: 21:50 I do not know. SC: 21:52 That is what I remember. I did not come from a lot of money. I must have had some scholarships. I won prizes in- at graduation from high school, and I know some of them were partial scholarships. I had a grandmother who used to give me money all the time when I came home and went back to school, and my mom would send me $5 every once in a while, but that was that. So, I did the linen, and I worked for Professor Dodge. And there, I cannot remember who there was another professor who brought their kids over from time to time, and I would babysit the group. IG: 22:39 For their- were there other students doing similar things to you? Were they making money outside of campus or? SC: 22:52 In my group, I do not [crosstalk], but there has always been kids who worked in the cafeteria, but in my little circle, I do not remember anybody. I know one-one girl who started out being a roommate. She spent her last three years, I think, living with the Andersons. He was a math teacher. She was a math major, and she would help out around their houses. He was in a wheelchair, and she helped out around their house and for room and board, she lived with them. They lived like right on the edge of campus, which is no longer the edge of campus. [laughs] IG: 23:38 Did you feel that you were more grown up than the others because you had to pay your way? SC: 23:44 No. IG: 23:46 No. How did that make you feel better? Bigger? SC: 23:52 I never- IG: 23:54 Self-sufficient? SC: 23:55 I never felt that. No, I just felt like this was what I had to do. IG: 23:59 What you had to do. SC: 24:00 And I did it. IG: 24:03 What-what kinds of things would you talk about with your roommates, with your classmates? SC: 24:10 Well, a lot of times it had to do with classes. If they had the same classes that that I did. IG: 24:17 Right. SC: 24:20 We would talk about our families back home and kid stuff, mostly, you know, clothing. It was IG: 24:37 Dating? SC: 24:38 That too. IG: 24:39 Were you dating? SC: 24:40 A lot. a lot. IG: 24:43 You were dating a lot. SC: 24:45 Yes, it was fun. IG: 24:49 It was fun. And you and you would spend your time off campus, on campus? SC: 24:55 Mostly on campus, because there were no cars there. You know, the buses were mostly for going back and forth to Endicott to school. If somebody had a car, we would go to the movies, like I said, we would go roller skating, but it was mostly on campus. We would have dances in the gym. IG: 25:18 Right. SC: 25:19 And that, that type of thing. IG: 25:23 Did you feel that you were going to meet your husband- SC: 25:27 I did. IG: 25:28 -during- You did? SC: 25:29 Yes. IG: 25:29 Well, tell us about it. SC: 25:32 I do not know very much. [laughs] He was, he was very popular. He was, at one point, he was the president of the Student Government. IG: 25:42 Are you still married to him? SC: 25:43 No, I was married to him for 16 years. Yeah, but no, maybe not. IG: 25:49 I mean, since he is an alum, could you mention his name? SC: 25:52 Yeah, his name is Ed Yaw. Y-W-W. IG: 25:54 Okay. SC: 25:58 Yeah, I do not know how involved he is, and I have never, I have been to a couple of college reunions, and I do not, I have never seen him there. No, and we are in touch because we did have four children together. And we go to all kinds of things that kid, you know, for the kids, you know, all the times up until this day. IG: 26:25 Was he from New York? SC: 26:27 Yes, he was from a small town to Potsdam, upstate New York. His-his father was a music teacher there. He taught French horn and cello. Yeah. IG: 26:40 So, uh- SC: 26:43 I think we met, and he was a year younger, so the first time we met each other, it was, you know, I was a sophomore, and we got married when he was a senior, and I was teaching in Vestal. IG: 27:03 You were already teaching? SC: 27:05 Yeah. IG: 27:05 So, you- SC: 27:05 I went to- IG: 27:07 [crosstalk] slightly older. SC: 27:08 I was a year older. I went to an intensive Teacher Training Program at Oneonta during this my- the summer after my graduation. IG: 27:19 I see. SC: 27:19 And then I got a teaching job in Vestal and taught for two years. IG: 27:24 So, how long did you remain in Vestal? SC: 27:30 Teaching in Vestal for two years, we lived in Johnson City. And then when he graduated a year after I did, in (19)60 he graduated in (19)64 he started working in the admissions office, and I believe he worked in the admissions office for two years, maybe three, and then we went to Carbondale, Illinois, so he could get his PhD in college administration, Southern Illinois University. IG: 28:10 What kind of um, so, what kind of work did you- what was your career in? Teaching? SC: 28:16 Mostly teaching. I did not. I was a stay-at-home mom for a long time, for a really long time. I mean, I did the two years of teaching in Vestal, and I had, you know, two little guys when we moved to Carbondale, and I taught some out there in a federal program for adults. IG: 28:38 I see and what kind of federal program. SC: 28:42 I cannot remember what it was, but I remember teaching. I just remember this one 85-year-old woman, a black woman, a cotton picker. We taught her how to write her name for the very first time. It was that kind of thing. It was just amazing. It was amazing. And when we came back to New York, we came back to Long Beach. I did a lot of little nothings. I sewed for somebody, some little shop, but I did not really have a career until I got divorced, and I got my MBA at Adelphi, and I went into the payroll business. I-I was a Customer Service Manager at a payroll company, and started out in Manhattan, moved to Queens, and that is what brought me out here. I got transferred out here. IG: 29:35 Could you mention the companies that you worked for? SC: 29:37 I worked it was called Payroll Plus when I first started. IG: 29:45 When-when was that? SC: 29:46 That was in (19)86 No-no-no-no-no-no, (19)81. Yeah, because I moved out of New York in (19)86. Yeah, in (19)81 I started there, and they moved me out here, and then Bank of America bought that payroll. So, I worked for Bank of America until they sold it to ADP, and that is when I said, "No more." IG: 30:14 So when-when did you when did you retire? SC: 30:16 I never retired. IG: 30:18 You never retired [crosstalk]. SC: 30:21 No [crosstalk] doing that. I-I started my-my own. It was not my own business. I started; I was a licensee of a company in Texas. They do not exist anymore, though. I started this. I always wanted to be a florist. I started a candy bouquet business, and I had a retail shop for 12 years, and then I moved it home, because my mother came out to stay with me. She stayed with me for three years before she died. But that was perfect. I moved it home, and when I made deliveries, she came with me. So, I- IG: 30:45 Do you still have a business? SC: 30:58 I just stopped accepting credit cards. I closed down my website, but I still have some customers that call me. So, I- IG: 31:09 What was the name of your business? SC: 31:11 Candy and bloom. I think I saw it somewhere on your list, Candy and Bloom. IG: 31:17 But this is for, this is for our listening audience, SC: 31:21 Okay. IG: 31:21 It is not for me. SC: 31:22 Candy and Bloom. And it was a licensee of a Texas company when I-I was working in Texas for Bank of America for a while, for I cannot even remember if it was a whole year or not. And I found this little shop, and I fell in love with it. So, I bought the license, and away I went. IG: 31:45 That is very interesting. I would like to circle back to your college days. SC: 31:52 Okay. IG: 31:53 And ask you, what were the politics that if, if any that were being discussed on campus? SC: 32:02 I remember falling in with a group that I do not know if they identified themselves or we all did, as the original beatniks, and I remember being encouraged by that group was a very artistic group, if you ever get a chance to look at a yearbook from that time, there was a club called the outing club, and it was mostly those people, and it was not real friendly with them. I just knew them, and I do not know how they kept encouraging me to do sit-in or sit-out when there were bomb drills and that kind of thing. IG: 32:50 You were doing bomb drills- SC: 32:51 We were- IG: 32:51 -on campus? SC: 32:53 Um, yeah. IG: 32:56 Against the threat of their Soviet empire? Is that what you were doing? SC: 33:00 Maybe it was not, maybe it was not, I do not know, we were not doing drills, but something was going on, and they were doing these great big sit-ins on the lawn in front of the Student Union SC: 33:19 Protesting what? SC: 33:20 Protesting nuclear bombs, nuclear weapons. They were very active, very vocal. IG: 33:31 Did they protest on campus alone, or did they go out to town or Washington? SC: 33:38 No-no, it was always on campus. IG: 33:41 And so, this was a small group. SC: 33:43 It was a small group. IG: 33:44 It was a small group. SC: 33:45 I would say, no more than, no more than 25. IG: 33:50 So, did you feel an affiliation with them in some way? Were you also against the bomb? SC: 33:55 Yeah-yeah. IG: 33:56 Yeah. What kind of music did you listen to? SC: 34:01 Folk music mostly. IG: 34:03 Yeah. SC: 34:04 Yeah. IG: 34:04 Peter, Paul, and Mary. SC: 34:05 Yeah. And we did Joan Baez. We did a lot of folk singing. There was a lot there were a lot of guitars on campus. IG: 34:13 That is right. You are a singer. SC: 34:14 One of my roommates played guitar, and she knew all the folk songs. And we did folk dancing in the gym. That was all new to me. IG: 34:30 Did you feel that you were swept up by some kind of youth movement on campus, you know, that was the beatniks were part of- SC: 34:40 No, I was a pretty independent thinker too. Yeah, I did not really submerge myself in-in that group. IG: 34:52 What were some of the other groups discussing? SC: 34:58 You know, I cannot. There was a group that tried to get me to play bridge. Those are the intellectuals. IG: 35:07 I am thinking about politics. SC: 35:08 Politics? You know, I do not remember anything political except for that one group, and I guess I remember a lot of political activity after (19)63 and I was trying to figure out what happened to me here, because I remember the day that Kennedy was shot, I was teaching, and I remember being on campus with a whole group of people watching TV for days, but my husband was still in school. He was not my husband then, but he was, he was still in school. So, I think that is how that happened, that I happened to be on campus then, and there was a lot of discussion at that point in time, but I do not remember anything very political. IG: 36:11 But what were people saying? How awful. SC: 36:14 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is really all I remember, sorry. IG: 36:22 Uh, what were- did you notice, you know, the changing mores? Did you know women feel that they have to? Did they envision any kind of future for themselves beyond getting married- SC: 36:42 Oh, at that school, absolutely. IG: 36:46 Tell us about that. SC: 36:46 Absolutely. I mean, these were these-these were career women, these were intelligent women. IG: 36:54 Right. SC: 36:55 Yeah-yeah. IG: 36:57 It is not to say that intelligent women did not streamline into getting married [crosstalk] SC: 37:05 Right-right. And I, and I was not either, you know, but it happened, you know. It happens. But those were women who were, they were going to go out and be lawyers and doctors, and they were going to do stuff. IG: 37:08 And did they do the stuff? Yeah, have you kept in touch with some of these women? SC: 37:27 I have. IG: 37:28 So, what-what you know, what did they do? SC: 37:31 Bonnie Malecon was a chemist, and she became a chemist for NASA. IG: 37:37 Wow. SC: 37:38 And she worked in Boston. Stephanie Mandelbaum. She was Stephanie Singer at the time, and she did not even graduate. She was in my freshman year. She was a math professor at what was, what was the girls’ part of Rutgers. I always forget there is a girls’ school that goes along with Rutgers. There is a girl's counterpart- IG: 38:09 Oh, Douglas College. SC: 38:10 It was either there or Rutgers, one of the two where she where she taught math. I think they are both retired now, and Wren de Mattis, she was from Saranac Lake. She married. She and her husband started a computer company for municipalities. She now lives in France with her with another husband; her first husband died, and we visited them 20 years ago. [crosstalk]That was nice. That was nice, yeah. You know, I think most of the people that I am still in touch with those-those are the women, the others are all men. IG: 39:07 So, all the others are all men, and where are the- I mean, how do you get together? Do you get together individually? SC: 39:17 We do not- we mostly do it on Facebook- anymore. IG: 39:19 I see. SC: 39:20 That is how we keep in touch. IG: 39:21 I see, I see. SC: 39:23 And sometimes by telephone. IG: 39:25 And sometimes by telephone. Are there any chapters for, I mean- SC: 39:29 You know, there was a chapter here, but I think it just kind of fell apart. We-we started to get together. When was me, was it? Could it have been loved floor who came out here? It might have been, and she had a cocktail party at a local at a downtown restaurant or hotel, and several of us who graduated together got together, and we also had, we all met at another restaurant not too long after that, and then somebody organized a trip to a baseball game. They were all younger people, and I thought they would keep it going right, but I never heard another thing after that. IG: 40:17 How long ago was that? SC: 40:21 Oh, it has been a few years. It has been years. IG: 40:28 Okay. So, when you look back at your years in Binghamton at Harpur, what do you think that the college gave you? How were you changed by that experience? SC: 40:46 It grew me up. IG: 40:51 Yeah. SC: 40:54 I got a little bit more self-esteem, a little I got to be a little bit more outgoing. I was kind of shy in high school, even though I did not know a lot of people, but it was a small town. Yeah, more self-esteem, and you touched on something earlier, organizational ability. So many people are afraid of public speaking, and it brought you know that out in me, I would, I would speak up in class more than I more than I did before. IG: 41:31 What kind of things would you speak up against? Or did you just answer questions? SC: 41:37 I just answered questions. Or if we were in an, in a discussion, I would take part. But I know I cannot remember particulars. Come on, it was a long time ago. IG: 41:46 The general tenor, you know, some people were confronted authority. Others argumentative. SC: 41:56 I do not remember confronting authority at all. You do not know, except for that one group. IG: 42:05 But they, but you were not part of that group. SC: 42:07 I was not part of that group. IG: 42:10 Right? SC: 42:10 No. IG: 42:11 But you were friends with them. SC: 42:12 Yes. IG: 42:14 You know, did you feel that there were different expectations for women than there were for men? SC: 42:25 I never felt that. IG: 42:27 You never felt. SC: 42:28 I never felt that at all. No. I felt like we were treated as equals. IG: 42:37 So, there were no greater restrictions on the freedoms of women as opposed to men. SC: 42:45 I am trying to remember if the men had a curfew like the women did, and I cannot remember. IG: 42:50 That is, that is, that is one of the restrictions. SC: 42:50 We did have curfews. IG: 42:50 That is one of the restrictions. SC: 42:54 Yes. IG: 42:56 What do you think? Do you- do you believe that your generation's experience can teach, can say something to the present generation? Do you think that there are any, you know, major sort of lessons or major experiences that-that you were just- SC: 43:22 I think- IG: 43:22 -that would be useful for the current generation. SC: 43:26 Yeah, I do not know that they would listen. You know- IG: 43:30 You have a captive audience. They are listening [crosstalk] SC: 43:32 More civility. I mean, we did not confront authority. We had respect for our professors and each other; I do not see that anymore. We were kinder. I mean, there was probably an oddball out there who was not so kind, but I did not meet him. IG: 44:05 Do you think this is true of this generation, or just the culture outside of Harpur College? SC: 44:11 Oh, I think it is the culture- IG: 44:13 Outside of Harpur College? SC: 44:15 Yeah. Oh, yeah. IG: 44:18 So, it is not; it does not really have to do with a generation, this current generation of young people, but it has more to do with a culture outside of Harpur College. What do you think? SC: 44:35 Well, I think I, you know, I do not know what Harpur College is like these days. It is kind of a smaller college of my Harpur College, gosh, speaking to today's generation from Harpur College, my Harpur College. It, yeah, it is the authority. It is the respect for individuals that stands out in my mind, the respect for human life. Times have changed, and not for the best, and I wish we could go back. IG: 45:26 What lessons did you learn from this time in your life? SC: 45:32 I learned how to get along with a lot of different people, and I learned that you do not have a lot of money. Have to have a lot of money to have a good time and a good education, and you can be just as, just as good as somebody who has got a lot of money. I mean, I came from nothing, and I do not think anybody knew that about me, and I do not think anybody cared. Was a different time. IG: 46:12 It is a different time, but it is also a different group of people at Harpur College; it might not have been the same experience elsewhere, or do you think would have been? SC: 46:25 Might have. I do not know, [crosstalk], I kind of remember another person that I really got along with, really, really well. She was this big, she was a little person, and she lived on my floor, and we got along really well. I came to college wearing a, this is my Spitfire thing. I wore a kilt, you know, a little short skirt, big safety. She borrowed it all the time. And there was another one on my floor who was, she was a Hulk, and she was an RA, and she was not very nice, but she was nice to me, and I do not know why. IG: 47:07 You must have drawn that out from people. SC: 47:12 I do not know. I do not know I like people. IG: 47:20 That is, that is, I think that is key. I think that is key. So, I am just looking back at you at your life so far. What do you know, some of the lessons that you have learned from your experience at Harpur and your life that you would like to share with you know, young people listening to this interview, what are some of the key elements to having a successful life? SC: 47:57 Well, I think I have touched on almost all of them, as you know, just put yourself out there, and do not be afraid to mix with other kinds of people. And, you know, respect each other, basically. IG: 48:16 Do you have any concluding remarks? SC: 48:19 I do not, other than I loved my experience there. I really, really did. I had a good experience. I have, I have a cousin whose son did not have a good experience there, and I felt bad for him. He went to Harpur. IG: 48:39 But when? SC: 48:40 Probably was probably almost 20 years ago. IG: 48:47 It was a different, a different time. SC: 48:49 It was a different time, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, I was lost a lot of the time in classes where I mean, what am I doing here? These are smart people, but I persevered, and I got through. Just keep on trucking. IG: 49:18 Well, that is great. That is great advice. Thank you so much. SC: 49:21 You are so welcome. I talked a little bit. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Castaldo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Castaldo, Sue ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sue Castaldo.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-02-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 49:24 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/61faf5adf2056a1ced09017b71a6f01e.mp3 5dbb208b0b28b1915ea19412d193e5d8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e85ad2453c346fda2314bc68a0625e20.jpg ae8a1b6e44333c50901140cc497e4250 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-02-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harold Magalnick Year of Graduation 1967 Biographical Text Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona for more than 30 years. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in medicine; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni who are pediatricians; Harpur College-Alumni who served in the U.S. Navy; Harpur College – Alumni in community service Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harold Magalnick Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Magalnick, Harold ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Harold Magalnick is a pediatrician in the Phoenix area. He is the co-owner of Pediatrix with his son, Dr. Michael Magalnick. He is a medical consultant for several school districts in Phoenix. He is a board member of Arizona’s Children Association. He is on staff with Phoenix Children’s Hospital. As a biology major at Harpur College, he worked at a Binghamton hospital for the mentally ill and attributes his sense of service to this formative experience. After graduating from Harpur, he completed his MD, cum laude, from SUNY Downstate. He served in the U.S. Navy as a staff pediatrician. He has an interest in special needs patients and school health. He has been involved in many community projects, including Make-A-Wish Arizona for more than 30 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Harold Magalnick.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-02-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 43:47 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/caa543c05169d9bdab41084b0b5b7e6e.mp3 fe72dd8dd104914af745b8e6a8fb8a37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paula Baxter Year of Graduation 1975 Biographical Text Paula is a practicing design historian. She is the author of three books on Native American jewelry, along with numerous magazine articles on American Indian arts and design. Before that, she was a professor in the humanities at Berkeley College in Westchester County, New York. Previously she worked as an art librarian and curator at the New York Public Library for 22 years. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College – Alumni in Library Science; Harpur College – Alumni in Art &amp; Design. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Paula Baxter Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 1 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:00 Now we are live. PB: 00:02 Okay. Hi, I am Paula Baxter. I graduated from Binghamton in 1975 I stayed on for two more years and got a master's in 1977. We are sitting in my backyard in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I am at this point, retired from the New York Public Library, but I am also a former adjunct professor and a professional writer, and I am working on the magnum opus of my career at this moment. I am the daughter of a man who took a long time to become a college professor. My dad was in World War Two. He was one of those 16-year-old who lied about his age and went off, and he spent three years in the South Pacific. He came home, he went to NYU on the GI Bill, and he first worked as a liquor salesman, but he wanted to teach first high school and then college. This meant my childhood involved a lot of moving around, and we finally ended up by junior high school in Oneonta, New York, upstate, where he was a professor of Spanish at the college here at Oneonta State. He did not have his PhD, however, he had a master's from University of New Mexico, where we lived for a couple years in the early (19)60s. And he very slowly- he liked to joke that he was the world's longest running PhD candidate, but there were many more, and he went to Binghamton. And so, Binghamton was firmly lodged in my mind as a place to go. I did; however, I was the only child I did not like Oneonta to grow up in. I did not have a good time. There was illness in my family. Only child students were very cliquey and laugh at me now, but one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Binghamton was that none of my classmates in high school whatsoever, planned to go to Binghamton. And when you ask these kids why, they said, too many drugs. So luckily for me, I ignored them and went to Binghamton and became a real person. IG: 02:15 Okay, so that is wonderful, a wonderful introduction. We will explore how you became a real person in Binghamton. Okay, so what were some of your first impressions of the college, Harpur College, and when did you arrive there? PB: 02:39 Yeah, I arrived in January of 1973 I had graduated a semester early from high school, and Binghamton had accepted me, but they had deferred me for a year, and this is very embarrassing, but I could not pass 11th grade math. I blame this inability to do math entirely on the fact that I moved around a lot as a kid, and every time I arrived in a new school system, they were doing a different form of math. They were very sympathetic at Binghamton because my English, my language and my history grades were top of the line, high region scores also, but that poor old math problem dragged my GPA down, so they had me go to Oneonta State for a year, where I did very well and got my feet, let us say, and arrived at Binghamton in January, 1973 and my first impression walking through the Student Union and smelling the pot. [laughter] IG: 03:41 That is a great that is a great sensory image. And so how did you respond to that? Did you- PB: 03:50 Did not bother me in the slightest. I was assigned to it this time. It was pretty new College in the Woods for my dorm residents, and the dorms were nice. They were new and fun, and I did not have the world's greatest roommates, but that all got sorted out initially, and I was overwhelmed. It was huge. And the first thing that came in very strongly to me is that I for the first time in my life being a sheltered Wasp who received her letter from the DAR at age 18. I was a minority, because a large majority of the students there were from down state, New York or the Metro New York area, and they were Jewish, and so here I was a little Wasp girl in the middle of this large college he had a kosher kitchen in the student union, which I found rather amazing, and you kind of could not miss the ambient tea. But you know what? It turned out to be wonderful. And I credit Binghamton for teaching me how to enjoy and coexist and live with diversity. And there were plenty of other upstate students there, somehow, we all found each other. And what was a very fascinating thing is that we integrated well into our fellow students’ lifestyles. And many times, when we made buddies, a couple of us would be upstate non-Jews, and then we would have one or two Jews in our in our little group. IG: 05:20 So, but the diversity was largely upstate, downstate Jewish- PB: 05:25 Right at this time, there was very small black--I did know a few black students and very small Asian. I knew one, and ironically, that was not unlike Oneonta, where I went to high school with no black, or I went to high school with no ethnic students at all, and there were three Jewish families in town, so I had had a very sheltered existence in terms of the world at Oneonta get to Binghamton, and it is a whole other ball game. IG: 05:57 So how do you remember, what are your first impression of the campus physically? I mean, did you, I mean, you are from upstate New York, so- PB: 06:09 It was much bigger than Oneonta. The architecture was very diverse, which I found interesting. At Binghamton, things were built at different times. As I said, I went into new dorms, but they had an older residential area called Dickerson, and there were lots of different campus buildings that were all architecturally different. It was a hodgepodge. There were nice outdoor sculptures, and there was a quad, and there was the library, which I gravitated to at once because I lived at my library in Oneonta, at the town library, which was a nice old library. IG: 06:47 Can you describe the library for us in the early (19)70s? What was that like? PB: 06:53 I am trying to remember. It was not as it is now. It was largely floor by floor on a lateral rectangular layout, but there were some underground areas that were reached by bridges, and the art library was down in an underground part of the library that had its own spaces, shared with the music division. And so architecturally was interesting, a little foreign. You have to remember, this is the pre computer age. The only machinery we had there were microfilm machines and the early photocopiers, which always seemed to break down every five minutes. IG: 07:34 But you had slides. I mean, we will talk [crosstalk] we will talk about that. And was the art museum- PB: 07:44 That was active. It was over in the building. It was on the quad. I think I cannot remember what they called the building. There are things there I am stubbornly forgetting. But it had the large statue of Pegasus on it, which was a big joke about Pegasus. And we shared quarters. The art department was there. The first thing I have to tell you, however, is I did not go right to the art department. I came in in (19)73 planning to be an archeologist. So, I was an anthropology major. And I really do not they were in separate buildings, and I do not remember much about them, except for the physical Anthro lab. IG: 08:21 What drew you to archeology? PB: 08:24 Okay, this is an interesting story. It was Native American. I wanted to be at that time Binghamton's degree was called the anthropology of the North American Indian. I wanted to be a field archeologist. I did my field work in my first at the end of my first year in Binghamton, and we discovered that I could not work in the field. I had a million allergies, and I was a bug magnet, and they would and we, there might be 25 of us on the dig, and none of them would get bit, and I would be bit to the point that I was bloody. The professors, the field supervisors, they told me, do not shower, do not use soap, do not use shampoo. I did all those things, and at the end of the term, they said to me, “You just cannot do field work.” And I felt like my heart was broken, but-but because they were intellectually astute at Binghamton and the professors in anthropology, not one of whom do I remember their names, by the way, but they were good. They recommended I look at the Art History program, and I did, and I was welcomed in. And the professors were top of the line. They were all refugees from Ivy League, and many of them left after I finished my master's, to go back to Ivy League, and that is what I did. I ended up taking an art history BA and MA. IG: 09:52 And what drew you to Native American culture? PB: 09:59 We had a Native American in our family that we did not know anything about. IG: 10:04 A relative? PB: 10:04 A relative, you have to remember this is from the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. You have to understand that my mom and dad's family grew up upstate New York, rural, and they were prejudiced, like many people, and they attempted to hide the identity of this relative, and I became very intrigued by that. I found photos and I found data, and I was only able to determine that he was a Seneca Indian whose family were wiped out by a typhus-typhus epidemic in the early 1900s and he was adopted by a Baptist missionary family whose last name was Baxter. How interesting. And they hid his identity, so we had the- my mother had an interest in this, even though it was not her family, it was my father's. We had virtually no information about him. This is my problem here. [coughs] But anyway- IG: 11:08 He has been a great grand uncle? PB: 11:12 Great grandfather, as far as and the other thing, however, you need to understand, because I did try to look into it to see if there was a connection that I could prove historically. Because, if you may not know, in the United States, Indian tribes are regulated by the blood quantum level. They are the only ones that are of all minorities in the country. However, the Senecas are matrilineal, and this was a paternal relative, so I did not qualify. I am probably 1/64 Iroquois, Seneca, as they would say, how Dasani. I have no family- IG: 11:36 Have you done DNA test? PB: 11:47 No, I did not. I did not do that. So that was I felt with that background, I was officially interested. My mother was interested. She kept some books on anthropology around the house. But I also was interested in classical Greek and Rome. And a matter of fact, my MA thesis now my BA thesis was on Roman painting. So, you see, I sidelined the Native American interest in and it became a dual interest with first, initially classical Greece and Rome. And then I became, my master's was expertise in English and American 19th century decorative art, which led me ultimately to the jewelry. And I had very good training for that. IG: 12:42 Do you remember the professors you studied? PB: 12:44 I remember every one of my professors and-and then I want to mention one who was not one who was a professor, but not in art history, because I was mindful of your questions. My-my undergraduate advisor was Vincent Bruno, very distinguished expert in underwater archeology, and he had written a book on the Parthenon. And I wrote my master's thesis. Sorry, I am sorry. Ba thesis under him on Roman painting. But two of the professors were very good to me, and I did the dangerous thing. And when I stayed on for the MA, I switched over to- IG: 13:22 Why do you say the dangerous thing? PB: 13:23 Well, because you can alienate your professor. However, Bruno and I managed to stay friends, and I used to see him after college, I stayed in touch with these three professors I am mentioning now after college, who were delighted by the career turn I did, because they wanted me to stay on for a PhD, and I left them to go to Columbia University and get my MLS in art librarianship. But Kenneth Lindsay and Albert Boime were my MA advisors. Ken was very good to many students, mentored a lot of them. And Albert Boime is brilliant 19th century scholar, but lots of thing, and he was a Marxist art historian at that time. Marxist art history is a little old fashioned. You have to understand that I went to college so far back that a lot of the current methodologies did not develop. But Marxism is really social history, which is what I wanted, and that is the methodology I adopted. IG: 14:19 It is, it is, it is a critical lens through which to see art. PB: 14:25 How art is developed- IG: 14:27 Is Terry Eagleton, one of the Marxist I mean, he is a literature critic. PB: 14:34 Was he at Binghamton at the time? IG: 14:36 No, but he is a Marxist. PB: 14:39 Yeah. Al was Albert was probably, I was that way too. Yeah-yeah. And he wrote unabashedly, Marxi- Marxist theory. He is famous for a number of books. His most famous book is about the academy the in both England and France, the idea of the Parisian Academy in the 19th century. But he was very diverse. He wrote an article about the pre-Raphaelites, and had other interests as well. IG: 15:08 Okay. PB: 15:08 I was his grad assistant in, um [crosstalk] IG: 15:12 How-how was your thinking personality shaping through all of these courses, and the attention that you were getting in class, and um- PB: 15:24 I was growing and I was developing as a person. I was very repressed in high school. I was repressed because of my family situation. I actually had almost no boyfriends. I did not fit into all the cliques in Oneonta and kind of went from one to one to one, which we turned out to be my personality. I am the kind of person that breaks through all the cliques and is a friend and I and interestingly, my father was that way as a faculty member too. They could all be fighting with each other, but everybody liked my father, and he united them, etc. I could go from clique to clique in different group, perhaps because I was a solitary girl child, but as an adult, critical thinking adult, Binghamton was excellent for me, and the library did play a role, because I had always been bookish. I always read a lot. I am a speed reader, by the way, which is something we found out in high school, [crosstalk], and it is just a natural speed reader who retains and I still I read a lot of books. Now I read, I read all kinds of fiction and genre and nonfiction. So, the library answered a lot of needs, but socially, I bloomed and I developed. And probably the most critical thing of all, I should tell you, although we could save it for the end, is that I met the love of my life in Binghamton, although I was wise and kept him as a friend, and he was a friend, and we did not start dating and become a couple until I was in grad school. He graduated (19)76. And- IG: 16:54 A Grad school in Binghamton? PB: 16:56 No, he graduates undergraduate. He graduated in 1976 from Binghamton, English major with a Medieval Studies Certificate, and- IG: 17:04 So, he probably knows Kenneth Lindsay. PB: 17:07 Well, his professors were you will know him. I am blanking. If you gave me some names, I would know Charmack, Paul Charmack, Robin Oggins, and a few others whose names I have forgotten. He had a medieval certificate. He and I, next month, in February, in March, will be celebrating our 40th winning anniversary. IG: 17:33 What is his name? PB: 17:34 Barry Katzen. IG: 17:37 Well, congratulations. [crosstalk] PB: 17:39 There used to be a joke in my mother's time about how girls would go to college to get their Mrs. In the 70s, we totally spat upon that idea, and we are not into it. I naturally had to become a feminist at this time period, and that is partly why I kept my-my maiden name, but also because I had student loans due, and I just did not want to do the paperwork to change to a married name. But what was the point I was going to make? That it was a byproduct. He was a friend I made. And I also think that it was very good that we stayed friends for a couple years before we became romantically involved. I think that is why our marriage is endured. We know a number of couples in Binghamton who married while in college, and every one of those couples is divorced now. So, we waited, and it was very good. Now, one thing I wanted to say, because you want to talk about life experiences, and I have to laugh, Barry and I took a course together, an English course under Alvin Voss, who we were very fond of in the English Department. And it was on Shakespeare. And I used to, I remember I was naughty. I used to slip notes to Barry sometimes during class, but to this day, he and I will quote lines from Shakespeare. Will have memories of a line like when I was at NYPL and they were getting ready to have layoffs at the during the recession of 2008-9. I remembered a quote from As You Like It, when I was at home I was in a better place, or when I began writing magazine articles, I would remember brevity is the soul of wit and things of that nature. And I have to say to this day, Barry and I laughed, but we feel like that. Shakespeare class gave us an unknown at the time, but lasting connection. And of course, nowadays, well, Shakespeare can endure, and does endure, but it is funny and that we remember Voss and his lectures and his talks, whereas I have forgotten all my anthropology professors’ names, and not my art history, but a lot of other professors, and we both still remember that class. IG: 17:41 Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you have such a clear memory of that class with Barry and-and sort of, you know, a foggy memory of the other classes? PB: 18:27 I think Vos [Alvin Vos], who actually physically was kind of an unassuming, modest man, youngish at that time, spoke in a very sometimes dreamy tone of voice, very meaningful. And he had us read, not always the obvious parts from Shakespeare, but when he did, he would actually allow us into that world. And I remember that one of them we read, and that is still my favorite. And then as I began to understand that there were some possible Native American Connections in that, the tempest became my favorite play. And with the line, oh, Brave New World, this is the one where Miranda and prospect [crosstalk] exile, and it had to be his teaching, and it had to be our willingness to be receptive. And what is interesting is it was not a course that was really going to line up with what we did in our day to day lives, but it stayed with us. And I cannot explain it. I feel that there was an intellectual rigor about Binghamton's programs and all the courses that you took that was excellent, and my BA was hard earned, particularly my senior year. I should say another thing too, Barry and I were on pipe dream. So, we were connected with some of the politics on campus. We knew people in student government. Barry roomed with the President of the Student Council. And= IG: 21:50 What was his name, the- PB: 21:51 Bill Gordon. And so, we knew the student council. I do have to say, though, that compared to what was going on in the (19)60s, by (19)73, (19)74, (19)75 things were relatively calm, although there was one sit in over tuition increases that everybody was involved with. IG: 22:07 You were involved in the sit in? PB: 22:08 Well, I did not go right in, but Barry was and we knew people that were doing the sit in. We were on pipe dream. So, we sent our- IG: 22:16 Student newspaper? PB: 22:17 Yes, and I became Features Editor in (19)74 I should also say that is another connection. I was on my high school newspaper. I was on the Oneonta state newspaper. I guess I was thinking about journalism alongside or as a way of earning money, because anthropology and art history can be difficult to break into. And I got onto pipe dream. And Barry got onto pipe dream. He started out as a photographer for pipe dream, and eventually became managing editor. I was Features Editor there for the year of 1974 which is pretty cool. And I stepped out, though in (19)75 because I was a senior and my courses and my BA thesis were tough. I could not give the time and attention to pipe dream that I could previously. Barry became editor in chief of pipe dream in 1976. IG: 23:10 What kind of features article were you running at the time? Do you remember? PB: 23:14 I would report on concerts. I also had, I had writers under me. I would report on art exhibits, what was going on in the art museum, concerts, and even sometimes major concerts that came to Binghamton, to the arena, things like that. There would be people that would come to play. I remember that we had Harry Chapin, or maybe I am confusing that with Oneonta, but he would come by a few times, and other singer songwriters and features, as I can remember, that really related to art and music and cultural activities. IG: 23:41 I see. PB: 23:51 Plays. IG: 23:57 Plays. Remember any titles that were- PB: 23:59 No-no, I have to tell you, I really do not remember, and I think that it was because of the senior year. They were very demanding in the art history program, very demanding, which was good for me later in life. And then, of course, I went right into the MA which was grueling back at that time, there was a thought that I could teach college without my PhD. That changed a lot by the end of the decade. So, they were very rigorous in preparing me to teach introductory art history, which meant I had to know every image in Janssen, and part of my exam- IG: 24:25 Janssen being the textbook? PB: 24:37 Being the history, the famous history of art had 3000 images in it, and part of my master's degree in order to qualify for it were two exams. One was a written thesis, which I did with Boime, and the other were my orals. And my oral exams is I would go into an into the classroom, and they would show 12 slides. With no identification. And I had to be able to identify them. And they could be from pre-history to now and then talk about their context. And they would do sly and clever things. Renaissance closely mimicked Hellenistic Greek and Roman sculpture. You could get confused. They put something in. It was modeled on something at and the cruelest thing they did, because I missed this one. If I missed more than two, I failed. So, I could not fail. The son of the guns, and I will say it to the day this day, put up the Bury Edmund's cross without the Christ on it. And I and several colleagues were taking our orals missed that one. So, when I said it was rigorous, it was rigorous. IG: 25:48 Was it ever it- was it ever constructed without the Christ on the cross? Or did they just take it off? PB: 25:55 They take it off. I think it could be removed for cleaning. So, they had slides of it removed for cleaning and whatever. Yeah, they wanted us to be able to recognize that cross form and pin it to the time period because it was significant. The beauty for how it hand helped me in later life is to this day, if you show me a page full of various different images, I can identify right away differences and similarities and things of that nature. That is a rigorous visual training that does not happen today in current art historical training, and I do not think any students in the last 10, 20 years could handle that. IG: 26:36 Why do you think that that has changed? PB: 26:38 Because I think the entire academic picture has changed within the (19)80s, (19)90s, 2000s with No Child Left Behind. The Switch to stem as you know, there has been a movement away from liberal arts training and art history has also been a very, very rigorous, demanding field, every one of my professors was male, and yet most students, not just the Binghamton but elsewhere Columbia elsewhere, are female. Men do get ahead. I noticed you had a question about, did men do better? The few men that were interested in art history, I remember always kind of did better in terms of getting to speak more with a professor, or being called on first, or things like that. So yes, there was some mild sexism going on in there, but all of these men that I studied under undergrad and grad were themselves products of ivy league training, and they all invariably went back to Ivy League. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I did not go on for a PhD is that I knew Al was going to jump to UCLA, a lot of them, except for Lindsay, who stayed and was faithful, all of them went to other places and-and Bruno came down to New York, so I was able to see him there, and he And I kept up a relationship, and it was tough, but it also induced the same academic-academic snobbery in me, snobbery in me, when I talking about the library at Binghamton, because I know this is important, I got a job right away working in the library. All the art librarians, from Betty Lincoln to Thomas Jacoby were very nurturing, and I was very, very good working there. I mean, did not do anything super professional, and they encouraged me when I began to think, I am a girl from a family with no money, and they want me to stay on for a PhD, and then I am going to have to go on and move around the entire country, taking little jobs, just like my dad had to do to get to where he wanted to go, and make very little money and often be adjunct. And maybe I should do something practical. And they say I am good as a librarian. So, I went down and applied to Columbia. I was not going to go anywhere but the finest program in the country. This is what Binghamton had done to me. And I went down and I interviewed with them, and I said, “I want you to know I want to come in. I only plan to be an art librarian. I am very ambitious. I want to run one of the best art libraries in the country.” And they like that because they were very arrogant thought and knew they were the finest [crosstalk] I am blanking on the names, so forgive me, all of them, and it is just today right now, or it is an issue I have with my age, but I can remember them, and they were good. They were they were kind of arrogant there, too. And by the way, this is a digression, that department was eliminated. IG: 29:38 Oh, I know I went- PB: 29:39 [crosstalk] and that had to do with real estate. They did not play their cards, right? IG: 29:45 But it is also, it is also, I mean, this is another conversation, but it is also that they were in keeping up with all of the technological development, PB: 29:52 Right. And they did not do a good job on that. The other thing they did not do is they did not forge ties with departments like communications, journalism, because something happened out in Florida with one of their major universities there, and they eliminated the library school, and all the faculty were able to go to other positions in the college. But at that time, Columbia was on the top and they allowed me to construct a master's in library science there that was completely art oriented. I even took government documents and did the art documents from the National Endowment of the Arts. And it was also a big in for getting jobs. Why I had to work all the time. I mean, I did not say this at the beginning, but there was not money in my family. I had taken out student loans, which I paid off, or things like that, but I got scholarships there at Columbia. My workplaces, I worked at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and then I worked at, this is a stretch American Institute of Physics, in their photo archives working and they paid for my second year of library school. IG: 30:59 How wonderful. PB: 31:00 I did not stay with them. They did not mind. They paid obviously, this is a long time ago, and I got my MLS in 1979 so the Columbia connection, I would not have gone there. I would not have done as well as I did, if it had not been for the rigor of the background in both my undergraduate and then my first graduate training in Binghamton, and I did very well in library school there, and I got very great jobs, except the one thing is, I was offered a job at SUNY Purchase, straight out of library school, and Barry announced that he wanted to get out of New York. He was having existential angst, and he applied to grad school at UCLA and Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, and we got married, and I went with him, so I deferred that job. IG: 31:50 Where did you end up going? PB: 31:51 I ended up not getting a good job. I ended up getting a parent. Oh, you guys love this. I ended up working in the agriculture college, in their library in their land, tenure library in Madison-Madison, Wisconsin, because nobody I- okay, this is a good story. IG: 32:10 Okay, tell us a good story. PB: 32:11 It is a good story. And coming from Binghamton, you can see that I already have a little intellectual snobbery, well-earned and well deserved. I applied for a job at the Madison County Technical College. So, I go in for the interview, and he looks at my resume, and he looks at my resume, and he said, “Columbia University. I do not know where that is or what that is.” He said, “I only hire University of Wisconsin graduates get out of my office.” There was a very strong- this was 1979, (19)80. There was a very strong anti- well, no, they had had a blow up. They had had the ROTC building was blown up during the (19)60s, and they blamed outside agitators from New York. However, it did not take me very long to find out that the kid who blew up the ROTC building and killed a math professor was a local Madison boy. But I would be in the student I would be in the staff lounge and just over here, well, you know him. He is a con artist. He is from New York, and I would get this. I had a great work study student who worked for me, and I am talking to her, and she was really bright. And I said, “Oh, you know, I would hire you or something like that right away, or, you know, or but I had trouble getting hired here.” And she said to me, I and she loved me, by the way. She said, “I would not hire you. You are not a UW grad.” I actually, I heard that the woman they hired instead of me at Purchase left after a year, and she was Dr. Stan. She taught at Columbia before it closed, and got a PhD from there. So, I wrote to them, and I said, “I lied.” I said, “Oh, I am coming back and I will be living right in the area. Any chance that you would interview me for the job,” they hired me right back in so I left my husband behind for a year in Madison. He finished his master's degree, and I came and lived by myself in White Plains, where I lived for 31 years and worked at SUNY Purchase. From SUNY Purchase, I was lured to the Museum of Modern Art, where I became head of reference. IG: 34:30 Marvelous. PB: 34:31 And it was quite an amazing job. I got to meet all kinds of wonderful people. I partied with Andy Warhol. I had- IG: 34:40 Tell us about that. PB: 34:41 Oh, well, that would be, that was a good joke I would tell my students about because we were both drunk at a at a reception, and- IG: 34:49 Where was the reception? PB: 34:50 I was working at MOMA. MoMA was the child of the Rockefellers, who were the trustees, and they also, of course, Rockefeller Center. They had redone all of. Restaurants. This is back in (19)84, I believe. And yeah, it is (19)84 or so, and they had redone all the restaurants around the skating rink in Manhattan. They had the statue and all that. So, they closed the area off and they did a large reception. I saw Donald Trump there with his first wife, and all I could think of was she has five inches of makeup on. IG: 35:22 She has what? PB: 35:23 Five inches of makeup on. But it was one of those looks (19)80s parties you hear about. And they had stations where you could go get your sirloin burger, your pate this and that. They had open wine and liquor bars. So I was with all the librarians, you know, all the library people at MoMA. We were sitting together big table across from Keith Haring, who stuck his foot out and let me trip over it, and then laughed outrageously. That was Keith. And so, this is a really good story. This is the really and I think Binghamton was at the root of my being able to take all this very well. So, I- we drank liberally. I was a young woman at this time. I was really young. I was 24 when I got my second master's in Columbia. So, I had started college age 16. So, I had, I did all my training together in this, you know, seven, eight-year period, and-and then had it. So, we all been drinking very nicely, and my seat mates came back to me said, "Oh, Paula, there is a chocolate mousse station down there." And they describe where it is. "Oh," I said, three sheets to the wind, or whatever you call I want. I want chocolate mousse. So, I jumped up in the table, and I run over there, and I find out there is a big line, and at the end of the line there is this very handsome man. mind you, I am drunk, and he is wearing a gray bespoke suit, a beautiful lavender necktie. He has snow white hair, and it is tied back like a 19th century man with a velvet ribbon in the back, and he smells of some fantastic cologne. So, I go running up to him, and I say, "Oh, I love chocolate mousse, do not you" And he looks at me, and he sees me, and he smiles his beatific smile. And I said, “What a handsome guy, I am going to flirt with him.” And we start having this amazing, stupid, superficial conversation about chocolate mousse and chocolate mousses we have loved, and chocolate mousses we would like. And we had to wait about 10, 15 minutes on the line, or maybe, I know it was around 10 minutes, and then he was ahead of me in line, so they fixed his plate, but like a gentleman, he stayed with me, and then he helped advise me, because he had, like, white chocolate mousse, and this, I mean, this is the Lux 80s. You would never get that now. And-and help me fill my plate, and then, and I am chatting away at him, and he is chatting back at me, and then we get ready to part, and he is sitting in different areas, so we are standing and we are talking to each other like we are kind of like enamored of each other. And I said, “That was a wonderful talk we had. Thank you very much.” And he looks at me. He says, “I had a great time. Thank you.” So, he walks away. So here is the best part. Here are all my librarian friends. They are jumping up and down on their tables, on the chairs, because they are drunk too, screaming. They look just like the monkeys in 2001 with the monolith. "Paula. Paula. Paula. That was Andy Warhol." And I said, "That was Andy." And they said, "Yeah, what the hell were you doing with him?" It looked like he was going to pick you up and take you for a date. Well. I said, "Well, that would not be bloody likely, but I did not know it was him." And then I told the story to one of my students in college years later, and one of my little students said, she said, "You know what I think happened? He loved that you did not recognize him, and he probably did not get that that much." And then I just talked to him like he was a human, like he was another guy, and I was flirting with him and everything. Later on, I had to teach Warhol in college, because I taught this creative mind course I read, and it turned out he had a famous quote, I am a very superficial person, and it was part of his whole, you know, raise on debt and all that. And I realized that that interlude, my 15 minutes of fame with him, or 10 or whatever, because he is the one that made that quote. You know, we probably were having a wonderful time. Because if I know who he was, I would have changed my behavior immediately and been whatever. And he had the joy of a young woman who did not know he was gay and did not know he was who he was, and just true human beings having fun at a party. And I met some other great people too. So, MoMA was wonderful, but I was very ambitious. Ancient Chinese curse, you sometimes will get what you want. So, I applied for the curatorship of the Art and Architecture Department at New York Public Library. I did not do research, number one mistake, but I knew that that was one of the premier positions, and I was very ambitious, and I had competition that took six months to hire, and then I was hired, and I stayed there for 22 years. But it was a terrible place, a terrible, terrible workplace, terrible. IG: 40:35 Why? PB: 40:36 Because there was no appreciation of the employees and no trust, no appreciation. For example, I curated exhibitions, but I was not allowed to talk to the President of the of NYPL. Did not want staff talking to trustees. I- my boss and I had to give a little show and tell to Oscar de la Renta, his wife, Annette and Bill Blass. They love me. Bill Blass started up a friendship with me. He wanted to do stuff. I had to actually go to the director of the NYPL and tell him that Bill Blass was talking to me directly. And he put an end to that at once, it was terrible. IG: 41:21 How terrible. PB: 41:22 One time, if you know about development- IG: 41:24 Who instituted those rules? PB: 41:27 I do not know, but that was a culture, that was a culture. And I came in. At- IG: 41:32 Do you think that that has changed? PB: 41:34 I think it has gotten worse. IG: 41:36 You think that it is- but Tony Marks was president. PB: 41:40 And at, yeah, he was at, oh, God, what is it? I have a friend of mine works, worked there for him. IG: 41:47 But no longer. PB: 41:48 Yeah, Amherst College. Was Amherst, or was it the other one. IG: 41:52 Who was the president at the time? PB: 41:54 Well, I had several, actually, I do not even mean president, I mean director of the library. I see Bill Walker, and he was not a good person. Oh, I am seeing this librarianship, so, all right, I am getting a little too free here. All right, make sure you delete that and, you know, just leave it vague like that. It was not a good place to work. And one example of that is that they brought in new management around 2004 and the word got out, but then they took so long, because they were using lawyers, they were going McKinsey Company had come and done a survey. They blamed upper management. They found out, right? Who was responsible? Well, you know, upper management is not going to take the fall. So, they decided that all the middle managers who were over 40 would be gotten rid of. And that was me, along with some brilliant people. I had just done an exhibition there. Oh, and they made a gag order. We were not allowed to talk for three years about being turned down. And one of their motives where we were in the New York State Pension, and the ones who had been there who were over 55 and were in tier one, they cost them a fortune. I was in tier four, though, and which was the least one. But they just came and they just cleaned house. They tossed one of the beloved curators, who was considered to be the best map librarian in the country, out while she was still doing an exhibition, I had just done an exhibition that broke attendance records and had gotten raves in the New York Times, in New Yorker magazine, and they decided- IG: 43:37 These articles, do these articles mention you? PB: 43:40 Yes. Oh, not always. IG: 43:44 Not always. PB: 43:44 The New York Times is funny about not necessarily mentioning curators and things like that. Although I did get mentioned in the early exhibitions later on, I might have- IG: 43:56 What was the name of the exhibition that you were- PB: 43:59 I have the poster in the home. It is called Art Deco design, rhythm and verve. That was the attendance breaking one, but it did not matter, and I knew the collection. I had a master's. I had been there 22 years and but they had brought in a manager, and he was actually a colleague, friend of mine, and they decided they would not have two non-union managers, so I was the one to go, and he had just come in a few years ago. Previously- IG: 44:36 When did that happen? PB: 44:37 2002 because I was going out for brain surgery. I had a brain tumor. I am a brain tumor survivor, and we did not know if I was going to make it, but that is not why they hired him. They did not even know all this was coming down until I let them know, and he came on board like the week before I went for my surgery. IG: 44:58 Okay, so that-that is really a life changing event, PB: 45:02 Yes, and- IG: 45:03 You survived. PB: 45:04 Yeah. IG: 45:05 How did that change your life? PB: 45:06 Well, I began to see I began too again. Maybe we can even think my critical thinking skills were good from my early 20s on, I knew a lot of us stayed there. I was very highly paid. I was one of the highest paid art librarians in the country, which is what I wanted. But that made me a target. I had a big target on my back. [crosstalk] Yes, they did not care. I mean, the people that they let go, they let go of the curator in the Slavic division, the curator- IG: 45:38 I know, I know- PB: 45:40 [crosstalk] They let John Lundquist. They let go of Alice Hudson, everybody who was over 40. And mind you, they were not necessarily as well-well paid as me, because they have been there longer. I came in and I had- IG: 45:53 What was, what was their what was the premise? I mean, what was, what was their explanation for doing away. For example- PB: 46:02 They were going, they wanted to integrate. It was going to be one library they did away with the research libraries. They had started a remote storage facility at Princeton that they did in Tandem with Princeton and Columbia put your books into stories, you probably had a 60 percent chance of never seeing them again. It all went black. It went black. IG: 46:31 It was such a- PB: 46:32 And I had a gag, I had a gag order on me. For me, they had to be careful, because Alice and John and Ed. They were, they were older than me, 10 years older than me. I was just in my mid 50s at that time, I came in as a tier four, the bottom tier, and they really did not have a reason. And if they had been asked, why did you take the one with all the experience and credentials over the one that is just come in as a library manager, they would not have a leg to stand on. So, this is what they did, which was illegal, but believe me, they had all their lawyers on it. They knew I would turn 55 in October, 2009 so they kept me on for a year. They let me know in July, 2008 that I was out, my position was eliminated. That is how they got around it legally. My position as curator, they retired. Almost all except for a couple curator positions just eliminated them. That was a legal thing that they did to protect themselves and with me they came. They said, “This is totally illegal by New York State law.” Why am I doing this as a recording here? Well, I do not mind. I am past the date now. They told me, “Oh, Paula, you are going to be 55 next September.” Illegal-illegal-illegal. Why do not we have you retire then, and we will give you health benefits for life, for right up through Medicare, and even help you with which is what they did with retirees. But they did not have to give them to me, and they did not give them to a lot of other people who they laid off. They laid off 65 people at the time I was let go, and 64 of them were called into the auditorium and told you have 10 days to pack up and leave. I was the 65th but they waited on me. The director had me in his office, and I come in, and I knew I am in trouble because the labor relations guy is there, and he said, coldly to me, I am the one that had done all these things. Got articles in New York Times and that, as did all my colleagues. And he said, “Things are changing here at New York Public Library, we no longer have any need of your experience or services.” And it was mean as could be Now, there are ways to handle it. And this guy, who is now head of the National Archives, by the way, you know, was very mean to me. I guess he was told he had to be that way. I am sure he did not enjoy it, but he enjoyed his very lux salary as director. I think he was brought in. We all agree, he was brought in as a henchman, and there was a reward waiting for him down the line, which there was, and he, you know, there is so many ways to tell somebody they are not wanted anymore. He could have done it and still got rid of me and said, “You know, this is great, but we are changing to more stem version, and we are going to downplay our liberal art.” He just basically made me feel like a creep. And then when I am like, really creep, and I am thinking, gee, maybe I have a lawsuit here, and they were terribly afraid of that, he said, “But you know what, we are going to keep you. You are still a year away from being 55 we are going to keep you for a year, and we are going to second you.” He did not use second. I mean, using that term to the Education Department, where you will work till next year, and maybe you can stay on and but at least when you get retired, you will be 55 and you will be in the state pension system, and you can get a pension. Well, first of all, illegally. That is illegal-illegal-illegal. You do not talk to an employee about their age. And yet, they did, I and they did it, you know, and I think that they were measuring lawsuit versus, you know, the carrot to get someone who had had a brain tumor and had to get checked every few years and take an MRI, and I also had both my knees replaced in 2006 and then had radiation because the tumor grew again. They knew I needed health benefits, so that was my bribery, and I went for it. And as soon as I was retired, nobody in the New York area would touch me because I was retired, so I am desperate, and so I decided to write books again, and I taught a little course back at Purchase and continuing ed and on the next to second, last second to last night of the course I was teaching, one of my students raised her hand, said, "My husband's a dean at Berkeley College. They are looking for someone to teach art history and critical thinking. Can I recommend you?” They hired me like a flash. IG: 51:29 That is wonderful. PB: 51:31 And I worked for them for nearly eight years. But Binghamton, I am in you know, I think Binghamton-Binghamton opened my eyes to the world, but also taught me what intellectual integrity was, and about hard work and about various things. I have another story for you, which will tell you about the upstate downstate I worked various jobs and jobs I worked most often when I was an undergraduate, because I had school, but I needed that money. I had no spending money. I worked as a night guard in the dorms because I was a night owl. But one summer when I was not taking many courses, they hired me in the cafeteria of the Student Union, and I like it was my second day there, and they said, “You know what, we are going to put you on the cash register?” Well, it turned out to be a call celeb, and all of Binghamton was talking about it, because they had never, ever put a student, an undergraduate student, on the cash register, because they figured, or, steal, and I was in nine days wonder, I think the radio station had a big thing about it, pipe dream had a little article about it. People would come up to me and say, they put you on the cash register. And I Yeah, but they-they knew they talked to me and I talked upstate. They knew where I came from. They even knew part of my family through Cooperstown and stuff like that. And so, I always thought that that was a marvelous statement about Binghamton. And this is (19)74, (19)70 sometimes (19)74 or late (19)73 and this was the upstate downstate divide, because all of us were firmly agreed, and they would not say anything in the cafeteria. But I knew it was true that because I was an upstate girl, they could trust me on the cash register. IG: 53:29 That is a great story. We are running out of time. PB: 53:34 I knew it. IG: 53:34 And so, I usually conclude these interviews by asking, what lessons did you learn from this time in your life? And you said “Intellectual integrity and a rigor.” PB: 53:48 Being able to work hard. I was not able to write five books without being very disciplined. I had to make decisions like, I am not watching television, I am writing. I cannot write books if I watch television. And I think that some of the arrogance of my professors in that program, you know, that we are the best, and this and that rubbed off on me, because I wanted to go to the best college for librarianship when I decided to be a professional librarian, art librarian. And I also think that Binghamton took a sheltered little girl from a very white bread, you know, not diverse community, grew up that way, and exposed her to lots of different students, lots of different situations. Socially, I did well. Romance wise, I went from being a little girl who did not go to the prom to, you know, popular, and I became a person. But all my critical thinking, because I was very informed when I came to Binghamton, developed there, and I had to learn to grow up fast. There were things that we do not need to talk about Binghamton, that you learn to grow up fast. Asked about and you had to have faith in your faculty. And I certainly did. And I, you know, I did two master's degrees willy nilly, and got by them quite well, straight out of there. And to this day, because I still intellectually, you know, I was hurt by the NYPL experience deeply hurt, and probably will be, you know, Barry says, you know, remember, that is past old news and all that, but writing all those books and doing all that was my way, and I have a lot of published articles- IG: 55:36 Books, please tell our audience are on- PB: 55:39 Native American jewelry. I am an expert in that area, particularly Southwestern Navajo and Pueblo jewelry, because the Southwest is the marketplace for all Native American jewelry. Jewelers from South America, Central America and Canada, come to the southwest to sell their jewelry. IG: 56:02 And just tell us how many books you have written and some of the titles. And- PB: 56:07 The first book I wrote was a tribute to my library background. I wrote the Encyclopedia of Native American Jewelry. It is the first and only such encyclopedia of its kind. NYPL keeps it in their main reading room still, which is a source of pride to me that I have a book in the main reading room at NYPL at 42nd street. I then went on to write four more books. My magnum opus is a two-volume definitive 150 years of Navajo Pueblo jewelry design, 1870 to 2020, it is an expansion of my first full book, southwestern silver jewelry. And I have is going to be combination reference book, picture book. It will be the resource in the field jewelry, because and has often got short hand. You know, short treatment in academia and other areas, because it is decorative arts or whatever, and Native American art in general has not always had a literature that serves it well. A lot of people wrote were enthusiasts or collectors, and not necessarily academics. So, I am able to write in an academic but accessible, shall we say, accessible, scholarly man- manner, thanks to my education and my training as a professional. IG: 57:33 Thank you so much. It has been a delightful interview, an extremely interesting life story. PB: 57:41 I think Barry would be angry that I talked about the NYPL. But since this is a library and it is a center, and you know, they did us wrong, I do not mind being on record with this, they cannot do anything to me. Statute of limitations is long over, and you know, if you are going to be a librarian, you need to be alert. I saw many red flags in my time there. And, yeah, this is not being required. IG: 58:10 All right. Thank you very, very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paula Baxter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baxter, Paula ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Paula is a practicing design historian. She is the author of three books on Native American jewelry, along with numerous magazine articles on American Indian arts and design. Before that, she was a professor in the humanities at Berkeley College in Westchester County, New York. Previously she worked as an art librarian and curator at the New York Public Library for 22 years. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Paula Baxter.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:14 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4badaee07d692d2b4b93ac2f54f5a7f9.mp3 5df77c50a2aa7e3e4fc79488889921bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steven M. Weiss Year of Graduation 1970 Biographical Text Steven Mark Weiss is the president of Straightforward Communications, a marketing and research consultancy in consumer demography and trends. His clients have included Hilton Hotels, Denny’s and the California Department of Agriculture. A magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University and of the Culinary Institute of America, Steve spent the early part of his career as the executive food &amp; beverage editor of <em>Restaurants &amp; Institutions</em> magazine. His work earned him a Jesse Neal award for editorial excellence from the American Business Media. For nearly a decade he was the regular columnist of <em>QSR Magazine</em>. He is also an award-winning journalist with 25 years’ experience as a marketing and management consultant to the food service industry. Steve resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, and serves as vice president of the Arizona Society of Astrologers. He has written books on astrology, including <em>Signs of Success</em>, which represents his lifetime avocational interest in astrology. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College - Seventies alumni; Harpur College - Alumni in the food industry; Harpur College - Alumni living in Phoenix, AZ; Harpur College - Alumni in astrology; Harpur College - Alumni in journalism Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Steven M. Weiss Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 1 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SW: 00:02 I am Steven Weiss Harpur College, class of (19)70. I am in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am being interviewed by Irene Gashurov for the for the Binghamton Library Archives. Nope. Okay. Well, start again. [inaudible] IG: 00:26 It is for the Binghamton alumni. It is going to be an audio a collection of audio recordings with alumni from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. SW: 00:42 All right [crosstalk] IG: 00:44 Sixties collection [crosstalk] yes, I do, I do. Okay, so let us start from the beginning. Where did you- you said you grew up in Brooklyn. SW: 00: 53 I grew up in Rigo Park in Queens. Went to Forest Hills High School. I was born in Brooklyn. IG: 00: 57 I see, I see. So, who were your parents? What did they do? Do they encourage your education? SW: 01:08 Yeah, I think I was. We were in a culture where education was valuable. IG: 01:12 Yeah. SW: 01:13 My father was an executive in the camera and photography industry. Worked for a variety of companies, and my mother was a housewife. IG: 01:26 Are you one of several children, or? SW: 01:29 I am an only. IG: 01:29 You are an only. SW: 01:30 Yes. IG: 01:31 You are an only- so you went to Forest Hills High School? How did you decide to go to Harpur College? SW: 01:41 Do you know, on one level, it was as simple as being an affordable college, but-but that that denigrates or plays down the fact that it was considered a good college, even, even back in the (19)60s, I remember a New York Times article that everyone liked to quote, that that Harpur was the public Swarthmore, that that got a lot of play on the campus at that time and-and so. So, the idea I-I had in my mind to perhaps go to Tufts and in Massachusetts, but, but really, for a lot of people of my generation and our socio-economic class, you went to either Harpur or you went to Stony Brook, yeah, Harpur, if you were interested in liberal arts, Stony Brook, more for science. SW: 01:42 More for science. That is that is interesting. So, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study? SW: 02:32 Until-until my freshman English class, I did. I-I had intended to go to Harpur and study political science with-with the notion that I would go into law, because that was that was appropriate at the time. But my freshman English teacher changed everything about my life. SW: 02:49 Let us hear about it. Who was the freshman English teacher? SW: 02:49 My freshman English teacher was Zach Bowen, who was an eminent James Joyce scholar, and in fact, he eventually moved from Harpur to become the chairman of the department of the English department the University of Delaware. And then from there, after several years, he went to the University of Miami in Florida and became their chairman. But-but Zach was a- anyone from my generation who encountered Zach, he was an enormous, jolly, wise, funny man, and for better or for worse, he took a liking to me to my work. And when I told him that I was going to major in political science, he sort of laughed at me and said, "No-no, you are an English major." [laughter] IG: 03:38 That is great. SW: 03:39 He put me in that direction. IG: 03:40 So, he claimed you as one of his own. SW: 03:44 I think that is a very good, apt way of putting it, yes. IG: 03:47 So, what kind of mind-expanding things did you learn in that, you know, with this professor? What-what did you learn? SW: 03: 56 I hope this is not too much of a segue, but you know, to think about I have been thinking about this because I know I was going to have this, this moment with you and-and I realized that it is, it is, it is obvious that we want to abstract generalities that make sense. You know, generational, generationally and collectively. But my generation, we were so individualistic, for better or for worse, that that, you know, it was part of the tapestry right of life. So-so-so I responded to Zach because he was totally avuncular and smart and funny, and a guy that I that I admired immediately, and it looked like what he was doing was fun. And so, there is that, there is that personality context where a young man looking for-for examples, not-not idols. Idols is too strong a word, but people [crosstalk] or just people that you could, you could model behavior on. You know that, oh, I could be this guy someday, and Zach was, Zach was that for me. But then there is also the-the coursework itself, being exposed to things like the Odyssey and the Aeneid and some of the, you know, some of the earlier classical literature. I believe we read some, if I am not mistaken, we read some classical Greek tragedy, and immediately that captivated me, and as captivated me my entire life. IG: 05:21 Right. SW: 05:22 Mythology. IG: 05:23 Have you studied different kinds of mythologies? SW: 05:27 I was, it turned out that I was not really an academic at heart, although I did have a I had a teaching assistantship. I was working on my Master's at Binghamton as well. I did very well in school, and I took, I took coursework very seriously, but, but another teacher who had an influence on me was a was an associate professor by the name of Betsy Oswald, who is a talented novelist, and she was teaching, she was my first writing teacher, and between Zach and Betsy-Betsy-Betsy convinced me that I was, I was cut out for writing, and so I found out that I was more of a journalist than I was a scholar. So-so not that I ever turned my back on mythology, but I did not choose to pursue the mythology as a as a career aspiration, the writing became more of an aspiration. IG: 06:16 That is wonderful that you discovered it so early in your life, right? SW: 06:23 I had been writing for, for, you know, for, I am the sort of guy who was in grade school, was writing for the other school magazines. I would always been writing. But I needed someone to confirm that that was something that one did, that it was okay to be what to aspire to be a journalist or to be a writer, and I think I needed someone to say, yeah, that is okay. "Yeah, that is what your talent is, and that is what your desires do it." IG: 06:47 I mean, did you become a journalist after that? SW: 06: 50 Yes-yes. I, well, I decided that that in order to be after my, after my-my Harpur, my Binghamton years, I felt that in order to be a journalist, I needed to have a specialty. That it was not just another I was not a general assignment reporter, and one of my lifelong interests was, is food. I come from a Jewish, Italian family, that is all we are interested in. So, I went to the Culinary Institute of America and got a chef's training yes in Hyde Park, New York, and put culinary and journalism together. And I spent several years as a as an editor of a major restaurant publication out of Chicago. IG: 07:33 Wow. SW: 07:35 Restaurants and institutions were- IG: 07:37 So, you were food critic? SW: 07:38 I was a food critic here in Phoenix for a while, but mostly I was, I was a I was working in the business press, as far as the restaurant and food industry went, so I was rather than, rather than a critic. I was, I was, let us say, an ally. I was more interested in what made a restaurant great than-than judging whether it was great. IG: 08:01 How do you mean, how it is sale, it is revenues, and- SW: 08:07 Yes, exactly, or-or as what became my, what became my major interest was, in fact, marketing and-and-and analysis of dietary habits and preferences you are looking this-this book is that kind of a book. For seven or eight years, I was the executive food editor of a magazine called restaurants and institutions, which was the largest, largest trade publication in the restaurant industry. So, I my job was to find out what they were doing and how they did it, and if they were willing to share with other restaurateurs. And I had a pretty international beat on that, so I got to go and eat a lot of great places and stay in a lot of great places. IG: 08: 52 What are among your I mean, we are veering off topic, but this is, personally so interesting. So, what- so when-when was this period of work. When did it take place in the- SW: 09:04 The period of work was from about 1975 after I graduated the Culinary Institute of America, to about 1981. IG: 09:11 Okay. SW: 09:12 When I moved down here. IG: 09:14 When you moved in 1981 so, you reviewed, you reviewed, you know successful New York restaurants. Do you any, any stand out in your mind? SW: 09:25 Oh, absolutely. [crosstalk]I do not want to the honest truth is that the great, the greatest restaurant company, probably that ever existed in New York, at least during my-my lifetime, was Restaurant Associates, and they were the company that did the Four Seasons and Forum of the 12 Caesars and-and the really great restaurants of their time. And the general, the gentleman who was responsible, you know, who led that company was, his name was Joe Baum, and Joe did all of these restaurants. And then he kind of just disappeared from the scene, and all of a sudden, his name came up attached to a project which was called the World Trade Center. And I so I called, I called Joe, because I knew him a little bit. I said, "Look, you know, you are a great restaurateur, and this is really interesting, what you are doing here." So, I made my-my reputation in the restaurant industry, writing an enormous article, I wrote one of the first articles about the integrated restaurant. I concept behind the World Trade Center, from the from the top that from the top of the building, to- IG: 10:33 Windows on the world. SW: 10:34 -windows on the world--got married there as a matter of fact—and-and to-to the marketplace, which was the concourse area, to the sky lobbies, which had restaurants on the 44th floor, but it was a very brilliant, integrated restaurant system. That is the sort of thing I wrote about. How did you- how does someone possibly create and then manage and run this kind of restaurant? So-so like on the on the on the creative level, the people like James Beard were coming in to-to brainstorm and-and then-then the actual building and running of it was another fascinating story, interesting to my readers. IG: 11:12 Right-right, no, interesting, interesting to any reader. And James Beard was brought in to consult on the menu, or? SW: 11:20 Yes, in fact, Joe Baum was a brilliant, brilliant man. The restaurant industry misses him, but he would, he would invite, invite James Beard into his office and just let James Beard free associate about what American cuisine should be, what American upscale cuisine, and he would talk, he would talk about, I have listened to some of these tapes. He would talk about brioche, lighter than air, floating off into the into this sky, and it was fantasy, but, but, but Joe and his people were plugged into this, and they just used it as an inspiration for- IG: 11: 51 Did the windows on the world have brioche? SW: 11: 54 I do not know [crosstalk] everything in its time. It had everything. IG: 11: 58 I forget what it had. I-I was there a couple of times, but I- SW: 12:02 Well, it was not just the fabulous, was not just the fabulous windows on the world, which was several restaurants, from the windows on the world to the Cellar in the Sky, which was the wine cellar restaurant. Then they had something called the Hors d'Oeuvreriewhich was just all hors-d'oeuvres, international hors-d'oeuvres. But on the lobby was, was just as interesting, on the on the main core concourse of the World Trade Center, they had something called the Big Kitchen. And the Big Kitchen was like the prototype for all of the for every, you know, casual fast-food concept that ever existed, but it was high scale. So, there was a bakery there, there was a there was a grill, there was a hamburger place. This one of the first places in America that ever had [crosstalk] and next to the Big Kitchen was a restaurant called the Market. And the Market was a, was a was in honor of all of the fresh food and produce in New York. So, every day, the chefs would go out and they would buy the best fish or meat or vegetables they could find. And all the menus were handwritten because it was that fresh. And that was that was that was ahead of time too. IG: 13:03 That was ahead of its time. Was very ahead of its time. It is, it is extremely interesting. It is extremely interesting. Were there any was there any connection? Do you know that the site of the former world trade, World's Fair in Flushing Meadow Park also has kind of a similar setup to Windows on the World? I mean, it also has sort of, you know, but it is a much smaller scale. Was it by the same proprietary or you know- SW: 13:36 Restaurant Associates was involved—It is funny you would mention that goes, I grew up in Queens on the 14th floor of an apartment building that looked over the World Fair site, the world that whole, you know, I used to watch the aggregated in the summer. We watched the shows and the fireworks. But the that-that World's Fair the first one, not the one in 1964 but the but the original. I want to, I want to put the date. It was the 1964 World's Fair, but that was the first time in the time in America that that there was a celebration of the International, the possibility of international food. That is such it was such a so I have written about it because it is such a seminal moment in culinary history that-that-that-that-that World's Fair, you know, was the first time there was like a giant concourse devoted to things, you know, you know, you know, Asian food, and even things like Belgian waffle was a big, was a big hit at that World's Fair, and they did not exist. The idea of cooking a fresh waffle and putting whip cream and strawberries on it. IG: 14:35 I think, I think, I think that is absolutely right. It kind of introduced, you know, not only well through food, essentially through food, you know, I mean, we can, we can discuss. I have, actually, my daughter has a friend, Joe Torella, who was also a journalist at People Magazine. But, you know, he wrote a book about the (19)64, (19)6 5 World’s Fair. Have you heard it? SW: 15:05 Yes, I am not, but I am going to look for it now, because it is dear to me. IG: 15:12 Probably touches on what you, you bring up, because it is, it is sort of, you know, it is heavily researched. And- SW: 15:20 Yeah-yeah, that was- IG: 15:22 -what we can, we can, all right, so let us go back to Harpur. Let us go back to Binghamton. So, you arrived on campus. What, in (19)66? SW: 15:33 (19)66, yes. IG: 15:34 (19)66, a city kid, and you are coming into really the boondocks. What was it like then? What was the college describe it? SW: 15:44 It was very small by today's standards. I think there were, there were either just south or just north of 2000 students there. And over the course of a year, you literally got to, if you did not know personally, everybody on campus, you recognized everyone on campus. It was that intimate. But, but the it, but-but the-the-the truth of it? Well, there is lots of truths to it. One is your, your only. I was only 17 years old when I started college, and it was the first, I mean, I travel some as a kid, but this was, you know, the first attachment from home. So, a lot of what goes on is just a, you know, once psycho psychology responding to the strangeness of being on your own, but it was also in the forest, as far as a New York City kid was concerned, and I was surrounded by a lot of kids like myself, really smart people who-who Harpur was a liberal, liberal place. I do not know what it is like today, but that was a very-very liberal campus and-and so it was, it was like, it was like, you took the compression of the city and young people and you it was a chance like-like the snakes coming out of the popcorn [laughter], the fake popcorn, we were springing all over the place, if the truth be told. On the other hand, I was very serious about academics. And I, you know, I gravitated, I liked, I liked going to college, I like, I like the education. And it was, it was a it was a mixture of social strangeness and a chance to- IG: 17:13 How so? Social strangeness? SW: 17:14 I just think the freedom that that is involved, they in the in the in the orientation week in the freshman year. One of the traditions that Harpur had, I do not know whether it exists, I hope not, but they had it called Patty's wake. And Patty's wake was a beer blast. And, you know, we were, I was not even old enough to drink beer, but so be it. You know, this should be my worst crime, but-but it was, it was it was it was so mind bending. Forget, forget the drugs and all the rest that came later was just mind bending to be served. You know, limitless amounts of beer in a space with music and hundreds of kids your age were just free for the first time. I do not know how to put a neat lasso around it- IG: 18:03 Exactly, but it is [inaudible] you vivid-vivid picture and memory, you know. So, you know, there probably was a sense of being part of this community, and uh- SW: 18:21 I think it is a very- I wrestle with that point a lot. [crosstalk] I wrestle with the community point a lot. Because as someone who eventually got into generational studies, that is what the consistent consumers. I do not know whether my generation was as collectivized as some of the other generations that I see. I think that the in primitive or the nature of the people that I went to Harpur with, everyone was in a play about themselves. IG: 18: 52 That is a brilliant way of describing it is very individualistic, very but that is great. SW: 18: 58 And so, our play is overlapped, but-but-but-but everyone was really existing in-in a script that was being written for them, personally. And so while it is fair to discuss the (19)60s in terms of anti-war culture or-or drug culture, or-or materialism is-is-is, you know, is laid upon the baby boomers, and that is and none of that is wrong, but-but-but I do not think it captures the essence of what every, every person who participated was going through, because there was a lot of ways to act out, whether you were in the theater department or whether you were an anti-war protester, or whether you were a musician, or whether you were a scholar, and people-people had a passion about what they were doing. And you know, sometimes that passion got a little too crazy, but, but I would describe my experience at Harpur in general as just being around a lot of passionate, crazy people. Pick crazy because the because I. Society teaches you to modulate a little. Yes, you get older, and these-these people are not entirely modulated. IG: 20:06 So do you think that this is true of the youth culture, because a lot is said about the youth culture in the late (19)60s, and you know all of these rebellions going on in the United States, protests and-and in Europe. Do you think that everyone was, you know, feeling, I mean, you cannot speak for the whole world? But do you think that this was more true of Harpur College or youth culture in general, that everybody was in their own play? SW: 20:38 I-I think that that the answer is yes to both, both the youth culture in general and Harpur, which gave people an opportunity because of the nature of the people who attended and the nature of the social structure of the school itself, allowed it to flourish. But-but as somebody who cares about this, because I have studied this and it is meaningful to me, I believe that every generation discovers its values in part as a break away from the preceding generations. In other words, that in order that-that the values of a generation are formulated in not necessarily in protest, but you need to create a unique identity that allows your generation to be a survival generation, there is got to be something that you are not just aping a previous generation, and what Tom Brokaw has described as the greatest generation, because they lived through a depression and because they fought a war. God bless them. Yes. However, I would tell you that one of the major, at least in my observation, one of the major qualities of that generation is well for one of a better term, excuse me, Tom Brokaw, fear and repression, because their survival depended on being brave, on enduring horrible, horrible things as a result. When they created us, my generation, when they created us, they wanted us to toe the line. They wanted us to behave because they felt that is the way you survived. You know that there was, there was there was an appreciation that you survived by following the laws of the tribe. Well, so turned out my generation was not having any of that, because we had to create our own values. So instead of, instead of cursing the darkness, we lit the candle and that. And so that is who we became. We became people who were, you know, we decided, rather than crawling back in the womb and being afraid that we would go out and party for a while. And I think that was true of my generation, and I think it was very true at Harpur, because Harpur was inclined to be liberal about those things. IG: 22:36 But-but you also acted as a collective. I mean, it was, it was very individualistic, but was not there a sense of collective of, you know, going out and marching on Washington, and also the music of the (19)60s was very much about, um, you know- SW: 22: 55 I think, I think that is eminently fair. And I think, I think when half a million people show up at Woodstock. You have a right to talk about collective but my experience and A, this may be just totally atypical to me or B, because I am a journalist by nature, and I was more of a watcher, you know, I was much more interested in observing than participating. But I just felt that even I acted a little bit in Binghamton too. I was a couple of plays, even though I was an English major and but the people in the theater department well, but you could say that they were collective. They were all doing plays together, but damn, they were a diverse group of people. IG: 23:33 That is a very good analogy. And I think so highly of the theater department is still excellent today, still excellent. SW: 23:41 Are you looking at Morris from Fiorello? That was my great moment. IG: 23:48 Yeah, so that was a great experience for you, acting in theater. And- SW: 23: 57 Yeah, those- IG: 23: 58 That is a very participant. I mean, still you are, you are, yes, you are a star, and you are in your own head, but I mean the nature of acting is that you are, it is imitative and, but you are acting as a collective. SW: 24:11 I-I was in a couple of demonstrations, and I was in a couple of-of plays, right? And, and had I been in the country at the time, I would have gone to Woodstock. I happened to be, I was, I was in the summer of my junior year, which was on Woodstock took place. I was at Oxford University on a summer program. I had applied to a summer program. So, I went to see the Rolling Stones in Hyde Park in London that summer, which was the same summer. So, I get, I get some credit, but I guess what I am trying to say is that, yeah, okay, I participated in communal actions, but it was it. I was experiencing it on such an individual level. Did I get the paper in on time? Was my girlfriend happy? Was and that was as real as being, you know, part of the crowd that was watching, you know. Mick Jagger come out of the helicopter. IG: 25:01 I understand. I understand. SW: 25:04 But I do not know how you write history if you do not see some collective, you know, strains. But it was also- IG: 25:11 -a period of finding out about yourself. SW: 25:13 Absolutely more than anything, more than anything. IG: 25:18 So, you know how? Just tell me about you know what your when you were not studying, how did you spend your free time you acted? SW: 25:28 Yeah, it was. We did not have fraternities. So, I doubt whether the school does. I do not know if it does, but we had social clubs. For some reason, they were lost in historical there were no fraternity houses, and there were no sorority houses, but we had social clubs. So, I was a member of a social club, and I played ball with-with, you know, with my, with my brothers, and we had parties, you know, we-we dated, and we had, we had, we had, you know, so there was, there was that kind of, what might be called traditional college life, of having a having, you know, you know, friends, you played ball with and govern. So that was part of my life. And then you just knew people from all sorts of people, had all sorts of interests at Harpur, you know, one of my good friends was, was, you know, running Students for a Democratic Society. And one was a soft, you know, what was an athlete, and one was a- in the theater. IG: 26:19 Right-right. SW: 26:22 I feel like I, you know, poured over like the vial of mercury, and all of the little, you know, droplets are running every which way, because-because it is hard for me to just put a, you know, just a neat bow around-around it. IG: 26:35 It cannot be and but-but also it is, it is, it is you who are bringing, you know, it is easier to put a neat bow, I do not know. Or it is maybe a turn of mind- SW: 26:46 Yes- IG: 26:46 -that wants to put it. SW: 26:47 -yes, that is- IG: 26:48 -you do not, you do not. So, you know, how, how do you think people perceived you? How would you how would your classmates, for example, remember you? SW: 27:03 That is a great question. That is such a hard question to ask too. I do not you know, I would be honest with you if I, if I, if I could tell you that, although I think it is, I think it is part of a journalist nature that you do not want to be the story. I mean, maybe things are changed today. So-so I think that that every time I was able to just sit in and not be the focus of attention, I was, I was at my best. So-so-so the answer your question is they would probably say who that would be. That would be a sign of success. I do not think I was a follower or a leader. I just, I was interested in the zoo. But again, you know, in all honesty, I was very concerned that my girlfriend was happy. I was very concerned that I was getting good grades. Just-just that Harpur at that time, was impossible to ignore. What was going on around there, which was which was wild. Here is what I mean by individual being an individual. I was in the first draft lottery during the Vietnam War, okay, and so I remember, I remember being in my, my dorm room at the time, you know, and they are reading off the numbers on the radio this. That is really how it happened. Now you find out what number you were, but you know your birthday, you know, April 7 is one, and, you know, and for every second is two. So, I had a number that was low, but not really low, you know, it was, it was one of the in other words, I think they went up. I think eventually they went through, like 120 numbers. Like 1/3 of the people were in the draft lottery, were contacted by their draft boards. And I was around 120 I, you know, I, I had a number that was low, but I did not know what to do. Do, you know, I mean, I mean, I knew I had to register for the draft, but the Vietnam war was not popular in Binghamton, you know, on campus, but I did not want to. I had no, I had no intent of going to Canada, you know, leaving the country. But these, that was, that was pretty, that was pretty intense in my life, you know, whatever the collective was doing, I had to make a decision about-about what to do, and I eventually decided to join the National Guard in Binghamton. So, I joined, I joined the National Guard in Binghamton. And on the night of my graduation weekend, there was a very, there was a very famous Grateful Dead concert that took place in Binghamton in 1970 in May and-and-and-and I had to leave on a plane the next morning to go to Fort Knox, Kentucky for my basic training. I was more, you know, I was more of a I was closer to being a hippie than being a straight let us put it that way. The whole school is down there in the gym at the Grateful Dead concert, and I am sitting in the student center by myself because I was too blue. This is what life was like, as opposed to the-the-the, you know, the abstract collective. I am sitting in the thinking, “Oh man, I am going to the army tomorrow, and as fate would have it, I so I fly to Fort Know Kentucky.” You get there, they shave your head, they-they give you a uniform, and it is pretty it is pretty abrupt change of lifestyle. And that night, that night was Kent State, and I had just joined the National Guard as a as a compromise solution to not wanting to go to Canada, to not wanting to dodge the draft, and that night, I got one of the biggest lessons of my life, which was, there are no compromises. Life will life will instruct you in spite of yourself. That is the way Harpur felt to me. It was profound. And the things that were most profound were things that that that being in Binghamton and being a Harpur opened up for me, but they were in part, because I was an anti-war activist or some other collective, you know, phenomenon, and I think that is what is true of most of the people I knew there. IG: 30: 59 So let me understand you-you-you know, enlisted in National Guard in the hope of avoiding being sent to Vietnam. SW: 31:09 Yes, absolutely. IG: 31:10 Yeah, that, I mean, that is the way I read it. SW: 31:12 Yes. IG: 31:13 Why did you feel that the day that you know, the-the night before you would be sent to training, and you learned about Penn State? Why did you feel that that was a compromise? SW: 31:30 Because I felt like I was taking a middle road, rather than making, you know, rather than-than going out one way or the other, saying, you know, I am for the war, and, you know, I am willing to-to, you know, endure the responsibility of patriotism and fighting for my country, or I am against the war. And I thought it was, you know, an evil, hostile thing. And so, I was uncertain. I was uncertain about his doing, not to mention the fear of, oh my gosh, I am going to put a gun in my hand tomorrow, and I want to learn how to, how to shoot and do those things, the irony, because everything is, you know, connected and strange. I went to the local National Guard army in Binghamton just out, just for the heck of it, you know, I when I went the first time, it was not necessarily to sign up for all I knew they did not have any places, because people were joining the reserves to get out of going to Vietnam. And I went to the National Guard Armory, and the warrant officer said, “Well, I have two openings here. I learned that that the unit in Binghamton is a heavy construction unit. They-they build, they build the permanent-permanent, you know, facilities for the army. And he says, so I got, I got, I got two jobs. This is one you could sign up and I could teach you how to break big rocks into little rocks. I will never forget that was one of the jobs. I could learn how to operate the machine that broke the big rocks and little rocks, interesting, but not necessarily my skill set. He says "The other thing is, I need a cook." And so that is how the world is funny. So, I went to the army and went to cook some Baker's school. That was my first formal training as a cook. So, everything was connected. And I went to, I went- IG: 33:07 That is so interesting. So, you know, what was the training any-any- was there any resemblance to culinary school? SW: 33:20 Not, but it was like this. It was being around the mass production of food. I always, I always make people laugh. And in culinary school you say, "Oh, I know how to make a pie." You get a number 10 can of filling. You get a pre made pie crust. You pour the filling into the pie crust. But then you, you did get the Army gave me the opportunity to be around the mass production of food. You know, you cook breakfast. You are cooking French toast for 200 people. It is an interesting experience. So, there were things you could. IG: 33: 51 Of course, of course. So how long did you serve? How long uh- SW: 33: 58 I served in the National Guard for three years, and usually it is six years that you have to serve. But I have a very sympathetic company commander and a very-very sympathetic company priest, Father bill. I want to get father Bill in this lifetime. I said, Look, guys. I said, “This is not me. Help me. Help me find a, you know, an honorable way out.” I said, “I do not want dishonorable discharge. I want honorable discharge, but there is got to be somebody, because you have observed me for three years. I played the game, but I got to get out of Binghamton. I did. I had to go and live my life.” And they were sympathetic and helped me get out. So, I served for three years. IG: 34:36 And then you went back to New York. SW: 34:38 I went to the Culinary Institute. Well, actually, no, but I got out. When I got out of the National Guard, I did the strangest thing, because this, this feels like I should send you a check for a therapy session, because I am reliving things and moments in my life that are that are profoundly, you know, changed, big change moments. But when I got out of the National Guard, I wanted to prove to myself that I did not. Leave the National Guard because I was some sort of physical coward, right. This was something like I was not getting out just to avoid so my-my father had a contact, and I joined the Merchant Marine. You know, the Merchant Marine is not a military branch, it is just the just and so I sailed for about a year on a steel hauling ship that went from Baltimore around Florida into the eastern ship channel. But-but, so what I, what I did after, what I after, what I did after, you know, leaving Binghamton and leaving, you know, leaving graduate school and leaving the National Guard, was I sailed for a year and while I was on the ship, this is much more than anyone needs to know. But I was in Houston. We had docked in Houston, and I had applied to the Culinary Institute of America. I decided that I was going to take my desire to write, and I was going to marry it to food, which I loved, and then I was going to go to the Culinary Institute of America. And that worked out for me. I worked out for me. I worked for the public relations department the entire time I was at the Culinary Institute. I wrote all their magazines, and it opened up a door to becoming a food editor at a national publication. But that night in Houston, in the ship channel, it was during the first Russian wheat deal. They were taking American tankers, oil tankers, cleaning them out, loading them with wheat and sending them to Russia and, and I will say this about the Merchant Marine, it is a weird life. But they paid. The pay was, this was astonishing. Great, great. It was great. And they offered me the opportunity to go on one of these ships to Russia. The idea was, we clean out the hole from the oil, and then we would go to go to Russia. And because of the nature of the of the deal, it would have been very, very profitable for young men. And that was, that was another moment like, huh, should I go to Russia, or should I go to the Culinary Institute of America? And I think I wanted to be a little saner at that moment, so I went to Chef's college instead of going to Russia. IG: 37:00 That is so interesting. Do I know that that America was sending Russia- SW: 37:10 Wheat. IG: 37:10 -which used to be the bread basket of the world, the Ukraine. SW: 37:14 Yes. IG: 37:14 Ukraine was sending it. SW: 37:16 They needed our wheat. I think it was 1973 or 74 it was one of those two years. IG: 37:21 I vaguely remember something. SW: 37:22 That was a big deal. IG: 37:23 Yeah, so you went to the Culinary Institute. And, you know- SW: 37:30 Yeah because- IG: 37:31 -and how did your life, kind of, I mean, your personal life, for example, how was it shaping up? Did you have uh- SW: 37:40 Yeah, I went to the Culinary Institute in America, and I was paying my own way, and I needed, I needed a job, and I got a job in Kingston, New York. I was the cook at a Salvation Army daycare center in Kingston, New York, so that so that so in the afternoon, before I went to class, class would run from about one to seven. So, in the afternoon, I would go and I would cook for the kids and-and one day, I was driving from Kingston to Hyde Park, where the culinary suit was, and it was in a snowstorm, and my car slid off the road, and I, and it was this big, you know, deal of getting pulled out of a ditch and the rest of it. And I got to school, and school had been closed. They had announced the closure of the school. So, they did not announce, in other words, they had closed the school, but they did not announce it in a way that I that was accessible. So, I got, finally got to the school. I was the maddest guy on the planet. You mean, you made me drive in a snowstorm, I get an accident. So, I walk into the I walk into the building, and there was nobody around, and I walked up to the second floor of this used to be a Jesuit seminary on the banks. I walked into the second floor and there was one guy there, and I said, and I was, I was, I was fuming. And I said, I do not know who you are, but and I told him my story, just like you are asking me now, because I mentioned who I was and what I was doing. He says, "Well-well, I am the Public Relations Director of the school, and I need a writer." So, I put myself through school for the next two years being a writer for the Culinary Institute of America and that and that sort of, you know, pointed me in the direction that I wanted to go. So, I spent a lot of time spending sending out, you know, letters and resumes to-to magazines and newspapers and magazine in Chicago said, Yeah, you know, you should come work for us. IG: 39:36 It sounds very much that, you know, all of these very fateful encounters, you know, that led you to the career that you have now. But you know, it kind of presupposes a certain kind of openness to opportunity, because somebody else would not have taken the bait, right? It is, you know, a certain personality. SW: 40:03 I did not, I did not read the-the questionnaire thoroughly, but I took a glance at it. The one question that that stood out there that made me laugh was, are you still friends with anybody from-from-from your, from your alumni. Now I am close to one-one fellow who I went to graduate school with at Harpur. I am still close with him. But as far as the undergraduate people, nope-nope, and the owner, and the reason, it was not that I did not love them, and I still do, and I would be joyful to encounter them. Yes, I think we all just-just shot off into, you know, you said you are being open, being open to, you know, possibilities. I read everyone there, that way, that there was no I read everyone there. I do not think I share you my story, but I do not think I am exceptional. I think if you sat down most of the people from my classroom, my-my-my circle of contacts and friends, they would all tell you a story like this. It is funny. I went to school with Tony Kornheiser. Is one of the better-known alumni. You know, he is on ESPN, and Tony was the sports writer for the back then the newspaper was not by dream. It was called the Colonial News, and Tony was the sports editor, and I was the movie critic for the Colonial News. And, and that is how life is funny here, Tony is a household name, and I had other things to do. I was not going to be a movie critic. Did other things. IG: 41:28 I did not know that, but you were a movie critic. What you know, talk about this for a little while. So, what movies did you- SW: 41:35 I remember reviewing, I remember reviewing Franco Zepparelli's Romeo and Juliet. And I remember writing a review. I wrote a review of Guess Who's Coming to Dinner with Sidney-Sidney Poitier, and and-and, as with every other school, there were super characters. Most of us were kind of characters, but there were some people, you know, in the student body who were, you know, brilliant but slightly unhinged. I remember one of them coming over after the Sidney Poitier review and-and-and he-he smiled at me, and, you know, clamped me on the shoulder and said, "Good job." I never, I think those were the only two words I said to that guy the entire time. But I was happy. You know, I got, I got an atta boy from, from one of the characters, David Hammer was the guy- IG: 42:27 I think I interviewed him. I would not be surprised. He is a lawyer now, and his- he is a partner in his own- SW: 42:36 Would not be surprised. He could have done anything you wanted IG: 42:38 I interviewed. I interviewed him. SW: 42:40 Glad to know that he is still-still there, because he was a brilliant guy. He could have done anything; he could have done anything he wanted to do. IG: 42:42 That is so interesting. Well, it is not surprising that you know, you know some of the people that I have interviewed and, okay, so-so open, yeah, openness to the world, certainly, you know, is equality of the people that I interviewed. I think I think most, I think I think most, but of course, expressed in different ways anyway. So, you know, so what- this was a time of, you know, changing mores. Were you paying attention to, you know, civil rights movement, women's rights came later in the in the late (19)70s. Were you aware of inequality- did you care, did you take- SW: 43:49 I would be misrepresenting myself to say that it was particularly political, so-so it is really not a, it is really not an area that I have a lot to contribute to. IG: 44:00 Right, okay, all right. SW: 44:03 I was in the National Guard. [laughs] IG: 44:09 Okay, so do you think that this generation of young people has something to learn from your generation? SW: 44:27 I think that is a very fair question. And I think that the only fair answer is maybe, but-but I but I think that first of all, the nature of consciousness prior to the electronic revolution is it is a different kind of consciousness. And I do not know whether it is a better consciousness or a lesser consciousness, but it is a different kind of consciousness. And I said this about the younger generation is I am very impressed by their versatility. The they can do 10 things at once, but they cannot do anything longer than five minutes. And that that is just on one level, that is just an old guy going, you know those kids today, but-but on another level, I think that concentration is-is a valuable commodity, and I think when what my son is a data analyst. So, this is particularly, he is a brilliant kid, and he is a great data analyst. But the notion is, there is always one more fact, there is always one more piece of data. There is always something you could add to-to alter the algorithm or the equation, and-and it is like, no, there are times when it is good to dig deep rather than to dig wide. So, I would like to think that that that, you know, there is still a place for-for concentration, which I do not see, and I see, I see everyone responding at the, you know, to the to the immediate impulse of the moment, you know. And I do not know, maybe I have just described that kind of character because I was when I was a young man. So, I-I the real way I want to answer that question, though, and this is something that I thought about, and is important to me, is that in ancient civilizations, because I like ancient civilizations, I like mythology. In ancient civilizations, if you live to a certain age, let us pick 60 at random. But if you, if you are at the age of 60, and you lived past that time, you became an elder of the tribe, that you were valuable to your civilization as an older person, because you had lived some life and you knew things, and it was the nature of lots of organized cultures that you would access the wisdom of the elders. You would talk to an elder, because the elder could stop you from making mistakes, or had some insights into-into culturally repetitive situations. In our culture these days, you get to a certain age and you are useless. In other words, we-we do not have, we do not honor the elders in our society because of what they know. You know, in other words, I am saying you do not honor the elders because that is the right thing to do, or that is, that is the kind thing to do, or the ethical thing to do. You honor the elders because they know something. And it is funny, because in the nature of the work that I do now, the counseling work that I do, I am forever telling people who are over the age of 60, this is the fight for the rest of your life. Otherwise, it is funny. I talk to people my generation, they all they still want to know, you know, who they are going to date. Will they fall in love? You know, what is the next. You know, you know, business empire to conquer. And I say, you know, get a grip, man, or get a grip, you know, Gal, it is, it is, it is it. Life is finite. There is nothing you can do about that. And I try to say life comes in thirds. You know, from like one to 30, you are young and you are, you know, you are allowed to have, you know, the karma of the situation is you are learning things. From 30 to 60, you are an adult, and you do adult things, and you have you have a family, and you get married, or you have a business or whatever. But after that, there is a decision to make, because time is getting short, and you are not as vital in the same way you were vital. So, what are you going to use these years for? And I just believe that afterwards you can be an elder of the tribe, but life makes it hard to be an elder of the tribe in our society, so you have to fight for that. IG: 48:26 You have to find; you have to find a venue. SW: 48:28 Exactly. IG: 48:28 [inaudible] you can be older. SW: 48:30 Exactly, right. IG: 48:30 I absolutely agree. I-I that that is really very deep. You said you counsel. SW: 48:40 Yes. IG: 48:40 Is that, you know, who do you counsel? SW: 48:44 Well, you know, here we get into the area where I have always been from the time. Okay, here is another strain of Harpur that is important. I got. I became interested in astrology partially because of my interest in mythology as a student. But partially because of a girl who was into astrology. And she was fairly, fairly adept. She was fairly well read in astrology. She was another undergraduate, like I was- IG: 49:06 Linda Goodman Sun Signs. SW: 49:07 The first what was one of the first three books that was handed to me. Jody handed me three books. She handed me Linda Goodman Sun Signs because I said it turned out we had our birthday was one day apart, and I wanted to, I thought this would be a good way to-to-to impress a lady. So, she gave me Linda Goodman Sun Signs. She gave me Astrology for Adults, by Joan Quigley. Now Astrology for Adults, the interesting thing about it is Joan Quigley, remember when, when-when it was turned out that Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan were deeply into astrology. It was on the cover of People magazine and Time Magazine. Well, Joan Quigley was their astrologer and [crosstalk] So Joan quickly was the Reagan's astrologer, and she had written a book called Astrology for Adults, which was a second level astrology book. And I, all I want to do is run around for people do not worry to worry about the President's into astrology. She was a really good astrologer, but the third book she gave me was a very, very esoteric study called An Astrological Triptych, by a famous astrologer by the name of Dane Rudhyar, who was a very-very eminent, thoughtful, brilliant, philosophical astrologer. And I read, I read the first two books, no problem. The third book, I did not know what the hell I was reading, and it became kind of a challenge to me, an intellectual challenge. I wanted to know enough astrology to understand what I was reading in this book. So, astrology became an interest, because I liked mythology. I loved Athena. She was my favorite Goddess, and I, you know, the relationship did not go anywhere, but the astrology got under my skin. So, for from the age of 18, I have been interested in astrology and-and I have taken classes, I have written for astrological journals, but all on the QT. I was, I was having a career, and this was, this was my avocation. This was not my vocation, but I was, I was a serious, I was a serious student of astrology without being an astrologer at the age of 60, you know, apropos of this, you know, being an elder, life circumstances changed for me in my business and in my personal life. And it was a gateway. It was clearly a gateway. And I could either try to recapture the stuff I had been doing for 30 years, or I could say, "Look, you know, do what you do, what your passion tells you to do, for the running time while you, while you are still capable." So-so I had, it is funny, because it is it Louis, Louis Patler who is a who is a co-writer, and a very well-known if you, if you, if you Google Louis, you would see what, what an influential business consultant he is in the world right now. His daughter knew that I was into astrology. She kept bugging and bugging me about doing a reading for because I do not do readings purely in this, because this turns me on. It is sort of like, like a person who has some ability to paint, but paints the pictures for himself. And she became so incessant, I finally said to him, "Look, I am going to do this for her." And she became she became client one. Well, I never advertised. This is about 12 years ago. I never but I never tried to build a practice. She told friends. Friends told friends. Word got out. I published some books, and I have about 200 clients now, and most of them are very accomplished, in fact. In fact, this morning, I did a consultation with a doctor in Canada. These are not people who are they are scientists. There is business leaders. They want to keep you know, sharing names is not the right idea, but when I say counsel, I am having the sort of conversation you and I are having today. These are the conversations I have with people because the universe has been kind and sending me people who have are really thoughtful, you know, are really worth talking to. I am not. For me, astrology is not, you know, you know, I lost my dog. Where is my doll? Do that kind of astrology. I try to talk about life of you. I try to do my wisdom, my wisdom years via the via this consulting. But I find that you know, that people come back over and over again and-and the names and the the-the-the accomplishments of the people that I get to consult with are impressive. Let us just leave it that way. SW: 49:53 Again. They come to me because I am not trying to sell them that I am an Oracle. I mean, yes, there is synchronicity involved. Yes, I tell people things that. How did I know that the-the- it is funny, the doc, the Canadian doctor, a woman who is, I know, I know because I have read for her husband, too, has been married for 25 years? I could look at her chart, and I say, you know, I have to say this to you there, there is really a strong indication here of some sexual, you know, hanky panky attraction going on. And I was right. I was right on. I do not know how I know that, all right, that, you know, I do not know how I know that looking at a piece of paper, you know what I mean. And I am not, I am not going to, I would never advocate, oh, astrology is true. It is the word of you know, you know the universe. But sometimes it blows my mind. I do not think I would have stuck with it if it was not, if that did not occasionally happen. IG: 49:53 Right. Well, I think we should near we should think of concluding this extremely [crosstalk] SW: 49:53 This tape will be [crosstalk] IG: 49: 53 How interesting. Well, they are interesting. IG: 50:40 -your life and period. So, do you- what are some of the most important lessons that you have learned from your college years--life lessons? SW: 54: 59 Yeah-yeah. I think that Harpur was instrumental. And this is this, is this, this is something that is important to me. I think Harpur opened me up to the possibility of dreaming of-of not feeling that reality was something that came with a set of instructions. I think that, I think that that the nature of what I studied and what I did and who I was doing it with, made me believe in the possibility that that you could always learn something, you could always be surprised. You could always you could always trip into something that was, you know, oh, I could have never anticipated that life was going to take me down this road or this was going to happen. And I think, I think leaving a, you know, leaving-leaving New York as a young, young guy, as a 17 year old guy, and even though I was, you know, a little free spirited, I was still looking to my family in a, you know, in a community of, you know, belief and practice and-and Harpur could have been a different kind of school where I simply, you know, went for an academic reputation, and I studied hard, and I and I, you know, figured out how to become something. But the things that were important about Harpur were the was the was the open endness of it all, the free-floating associations that seem to have so much meaning. And I honestly feel that basically, and again, this is just for me, that is that, that is what Harpur opened me up. It is sort of like a look like, you know, like, like a meditation or a spiritual journey. I only can characterize it that looking back at it, it opened me up. It opened me up to the possibilities of the universe. And that was life lesson number one, that and I realized that in order to write, you had to concentrate. [laughs] IG: 56: 54 Well, that is that is absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for a really, very, you know, very substantive, unique interview, I think that we are going to conclude- SW: 57:09 Okay. IG: 57:10 -here and I thank you very much, Steve. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steven M. Weiss Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Weiss, Steven M. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Steven Mark Weiss is the president of Straightforward Communications, a marketing and research consultancy in consumer demography and trends. His clients have included Hilton Hotels, Denny’s and the California Department of Agriculture. A magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University and of the Culinary Institute of America, Steve spent the early part of his career as the executive food &amp; beverage editor of <em>Restaurants &amp; Institutions</em> magazine. His work earned him a Jesse Neal award for editorial excellence from the American Business Media. For nearly a decade he was the regular columnist of <em>QSR Magazine</em>. He is also an award-winning journalist with 25 years’ experience as a marketing and management consultant to the food service industry. Steve resides in Scottsdale, Arizona, and serves as vice president of the Arizona Society of Astrologers. He has written books on astrology, including <em>Signs of Success</em>, which represents his lifetime avocational interest in astrology. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Steven Weiss.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 57:14 Minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/75e4112a4f48ca3ef264ff49d6875ca4.mp3 5406d3167c66579b9a4fc73cd2c28538 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bbbda9cebd06cc1ca5f5fc188f61f092.jpg d6dc2c1b73b2c179a3ff7186caf1451c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-03-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barry Schneider Year of Graduation 1964 Biographical Text Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Barry Schneider Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 11 March 2019 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) BS: 00:00 [inaudible] My name is Barry Schneider, graduated 1964 from Harpur College, and I am now a retired superior court judge in Phoenix, Arizona. Today is March 1, 2019. IG: 00:17 Where are we? And [inaudible] BS: 00:19 We are in my office in Phoenix I have as a retired judge. I became a mediator/arbitrator. I do not practice law, although my license is active and I have an office in Phoenix at 1313, East Osborne Road, Phoenix, Arizona, 85014. IG: 00:39 And what are you doing? BS: 00:41 And I am told that what we are doing is compiling some kind of an oral history of my wonderful time at Harpur College in the (19)60s. IG: 00:49 Exactly-exactly. All right. So, thank you very much for that intro. So maybe we can begin by your just tell me a little bit of by way of background, where did you grow up and who your parents were? What they did? Did they encourage you to continue with your higher education? BS: 01:11 Absolutely. I was born in the Bronx in New York, right near Yankee Stadium, and my family moved when I was 12 years old to the south shore of Long Island, to Woodmere New York, five towns on the south shore, and I went to high school at Hewlett on Long Island. I graduated high school in 1960 I had played varsity basketball and varsity baseball in high school, and my parents were off born in the United States from parents who had emigrated around turn of the 20th century from Russia and other countries around there. My father was a small businessman who owned a small manufacturing business that manufactured leather wedding albums and such. My mother was a homemaker. She-she was a brilliant card player. She is a life master in Bridge at a very early age, played poker in her later years, very smart woman. I had a sister that unfortunately passed away when I was a junior in college. She was 17. The family moved to Long Island when it came to applying to colleges, my high school limited us to three applications, and I applied to Cornell engineering, because I figured I could not get into Cornell otherwise, and I had an interest in math at the time. And I applied to University of Vermont, and I applied to Harpur College, which was definitely promoted strongly by my high school guidance counselor. He put it in terms of, economically, it is obviously a good deal, but scholastically, it has got an excellent reputation. It is going to be a growing, wonderful university in the northern part of the state. It is part of the state system. It is going to have funding, presumably, it was 1000 students or so when I applied, it sounded great, and I was accepted to all three and I chose Harpur. IG: 01:12 Why? BS: 01:58 For all those reasons, I liked the idea that it was small. I did not really want to go to an engineering school in Vermont. I did not really know anything about it, so Harpur seemed the right fit for me. And my parents are very encouraging. Fact, I still remember, finally, my father passed away in 2006, 92 I still remember fondly the trip that he and I took from our home to Binghamton from my orientation. It was just the two of us. It was a wonderful couple of days together. So, they were very supportive. IG: 04:27 Had you- thank you. Had you ever visited Binghamton before arriving on campus? BS: 04:37 I do not think so. I am not sure. I do not have a recollection of it. I do not think so. IG: 04:47 So, what were your first impressions your- BS: 04:50 I did visit. I did visit because I remember being taken through the dorm and knocking on somebody's door. I cannot remember who it was. It could have been somebody became a big director. No, he was here behind me. Was not Andrew Bergman. He was a year behind me. Was Andrew Bergman's good friend I was thinking about that was not them knocked on somebody's door. They showed me the dorm room. So, I was there for a brief time before I actually went there. And my impressions were, what did I know? 17-year-old kid from Long Island. I do not know anything. IG: 05:26 So, you know you-you had not experienced rural life before, right? BS: 05:33 No, Suburban. You know, Bronx in suburbia. IG: 05:37 Okay, so- BS: 05:38 Camps every now and then. IG: 05:40 Yeah. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of the place of the students that you met on your first days? BS: 05:48 It is hard to remember the first impressions my first activities. I remember this. I do not know if it is of any interest, but I have an athletic interest. I went to college having no-no dreams of ever having any intercollegiate experience. I remember my high school basketball coach laughing at me. He says, “As soon as you hear that basketball bounce, you are going to be in the gym.” I am 5'6", (5')7", whatever, and I am a little tiny runt. I so the first thing I did was, I think I knew who my roommate was. I think we met before we went up there. We had a mutual friend. He got kicked out of the school in our sophomore year, but I went down to the gym, which was then the small gym, which I do not know if it is a women's gym now or not, it was not the big field house by any means, and there were on the outdoor basketball courts. There were a bunch of games going on. One of the players in one of the games was a junior at Harpur. His name is Jimmy Davis. I knew Jimmy pretty well because he was a star of the basketball team a couple of years ahead of me at Hewlett, and his younger brother was a year behind me at Hewlett, and we were teammates on the basketball team. And in fact, I remember talking to Jimmy before I made my decision about Harpur, because I would I knew that he had gone there, and he was very encouraging. And I saw Jimmy on the play on the basketball courts playing with his older guy turned out to be the basketball coach. And Jimmy says, "Hey, peanuts." So, peanuts was my name from orientation week until I graduated and I got into the game that the coach was playing, Jimmy was playing. I do not know if Mickey Greenberg was there. Probably was. And because of Jimmy, who the coach idolized, Jimmy was a God. He was a great player, because I was kind of part of his whatever I was seen by the coach as, hey, this is potential, whatever. In fact, the coach had told me that my JV basketball coach in high school had met him earlier that summer at some coaches’ conference, and for some reason he knew I was going to Harpur and mentioned to the coach, Frank Pollard, hey, this kid, peanuts is coming, you know, keep your eye out for him. That is my first recollection of anything during orientation week. Remember getting the beanies, and if you know when the beanie, they-they did an H in your forehead. And I was, I was always getting an H on my forehead because I was challenging these ridiculous norms, whatever, that is what I remember. I started off as a math major, and I think either after my first semester or my second semester, I said, "No, that is not for me." I had four eight o'clock in my first semester. It was freezing cold. I never could not get the you know; I did not want to go to class. And I have a good friend, Tony D'Aristotle, who graduated a year before me, who was also on the basketball team, local from Binghamton, still lives in Binghamton. Used to live Montreal, taught Montreal in McGill, taught at Stanford, taught and spent time down South America back in Binghamton, I stayed his house. When I am there. He was a math major; he was a professor of math. He was a PhD in math, and he remembers the conversation that I do not remember when I told Dick Wick Hall, who was a professor of math, I do not think this is for me. And Hall said, okay, he could not care less. So, I started as a math major, then I had to figure out a major, and I majored in economics. There was that a little bit of math in it. IG: 05:48 Yeah. How- what did you think of-of the students in your classes? BS: 05:48 I loved it. There was all this political, civil rights stuff going on, hippies, beats. On beatniks and dressing, you know, differently. I remember the fun we used to have, and I was kind of a part of that. I was, I went up to Buffalo to-to demonstrate against house on American Activities Committee, and I, I was part of that group, but I was not as fringed as they were. But I remember going into town wearing my Harpur jacket, carrying my communism textbook from social science whatever, just to get a reaction from the local people. I mean, we had fun, but we were but we will push. We were part of that generation, the sexual revolution, civil rights revolution. I remember Stokely Carmichael coming to the campus. IG: 10:51 When-when? BS: 10:53 (19)63, (19)64. IG: 10:55 I had not realized that. BS: 10:57 And John Lewis, I think, was with him as well. IG: 10:59 Oh, really? BS: 11:00 I think so. And I just kind of was on the background, just [crosstalk] IG: 11:06 We actually have their- we have John Lewis's interview for another collection. BS: 11:12 Okay, yeah, but I was very wrapped up in that social in the social political culture. IG: 11:18 I had not realized was that that early in the (19)60s. BS: 11:23 Before the Vietnam War, it was purely the civil rights movement. And I marched on Washington in 1963--there was groups that were being sent by Harpur College, and I did not really get a part of that. I go home, it is August, back home and talk about parents encouraging you. And my sister had died earlier that year, and I am home and the civil rights march, the March on Washington, and I said, I want to go and by myself. I got on a train, and my mother packed me a lunch, goodbye and good luck and Godspeed. She was proud of me. So was my father. IG: 12:05 How wonderful. BS: 12:06 It was, tearing up, but I mean to me, those four years were irrepla- irreplaceable. Girlfriends broke up with me, all that stuff. It was a real coming of age experience. IG: 12:26 Tell us a little bit more about the groups that you socialized with and- BS: 12:30 I was a member. I was kind of rushed by. We did not have they did not have fraternity news. Then they had social clubs. And one of the leading social clubs was Adelphi. I do not know if it is still there. This is where the President the senior class was a member, and all-all the Upstate waspy guys. And then there was SOS, which was much more ragged and much more rowdy. Then there was ITK, there was goal yards, and I was somewhat known on campus. I mean, I was six men on the basketball team in my freshman year. I started in my junior year, and I got rushed SOS rushed me. Some of my best friends were in SOS, and I chose Adelphi because that was, you know, that was the prestigious thing to do. And I got so tired of it. By my junior year, I basically dropped out. I got tired of things like the pledge, this pledges with pledge, and then we had sat down like we had this authority. No, yes, no, yes. It just bothered me. I said, I do not want to be part of this, so I dropped out and I became more of the hippie kind of- IG: 13:46 Well, tell me about the young people who were part of this hippie group. BS: 13:52 They were- IG: 13:53 Who were they? They were from Long Island in New York City- BS: 13:56 Mostly- there was mostly downstate, but some upstate as well. They dress scruff here they most of them were, well, a lot of them were literature majors, very artistic, very creative. Deborah Tannen, okay, big name in Harpur College was a good friend of mine. She was a year behind me, and I hung out. She one of her best friends was my girlfriend at the time, and we and her boyfriend at the time was also a year behind me, Mike Tillis, who is now in Israel with a long, Hasidic kind of a life for many years. And we would double date. I had a car. We would go out after games. Deborah Tennant and I were good friends, and we still are in contact with each other, although I am not, you know, she is Deborah Tannen and I am not. She is really a celebrity. I mean, she is, she is, she is amazing. The last reunion, we spent some time together, I have pictures of my phone with her. She is wonderful. And she was, really, she was an English major. She became, you know, a linguistics PhD. I guess they are related, but that is the kind of folks I was hanging out with. They were not really. Some of them were just hanging out in a snack bar. They were not. Some of them were not good students. Deborah was my girlfriend was and who is your girlfriend? Elaine Selling. I have no idea what has happened to her. She had broken up with a boyfriend before me. We went out. She dumped me to go back with him. That is all what I remember. I am just trying to think there was, who were these kids. I mean, I was friendly with the athletes and kind of this group, you know, I was, I was sort of a bridge between them, of sorts. IG: 15:58 The athletes were not politicized. BS: 16:01 Yeah, some of them were. IG: 16:01 Some of them were. BS: 16:02 Yeah, but not as much as these kids. IG: 16:05 Yeah. What kind of things did they talked about? What, what did you talk about when you were with them? BS: 16:10 Oh, what typically young men talk about? Women basketball exams in school? Nothing that I can remember that is, you know, particularly [crosstalk] IG: 16:22 [inaudible] on American activities. Did you talk about anything political or [crosstalk] when was in the air at the time? BS: 16:29 I think the Vietnam War. I cannot remember where that was starting to heat up. But, you know, there were draft issues. You know, we were concerned about the draft. Some of us, some of them, my classmates, went to pretty, not extremes, but went to medical school they could not get into us, and went to Bologna, just, you know, right, basically, to avoid the that is not fair to say, but I went to graduate school, I lasted a semester, and then I went to law school. IG: 17:07 Where did you go to graduate school? BS: 17:10 Rutgers in economics. I actually lasted a semester, and then I quit in the second semester. I did not like it. My economics advisor was a guy named John LaTourette. It was a wonderful guy. IG: 17:24 Yeah. So, you know, just, let us backtrack before you went to law school. So, you know some of the professors that made an impression on you. Can you remember some names? BS: 17:36 John LaTourette. He was my Economics professor. Took a number of courses with him. There was a guy named Hamilton, associate sociology professor. He was pretty left. He had a good relationship with a lot of these students. There was a guy who taught statistics, I do not remember his name, that I just enjoyed. We had a good relationship. I hate, I hate his statistics. I think I got to be in this, somehow, Van [Robert VanHadel] something. I kind of have an image of him, but he would not remember me. I do not remember him. I lived off campus since my sophomore year, starting my sophomore year, since I was able to, I did, and I lived with some upperclassmen, and I lived with guys in my sophomore year who were dirty, who were stealing exams. They all got kicked out, and I was not and I said, do not, I do not want to see it. Leave me alone. But I was in the house with these guys. It was very uncomfortable. But did not never I was, I always, I was, you know, what is that word Teflon? I was Teflon. About that me. I never got, nobody ever talked to me. But I never got pulled in. But I knew the guy that knew the combination to this, and then he was able to get the exams and go away. I do not, I do not want this. I do not want to do this. And I would, you know, I was pretty good student in economics. I was actually second highest in the class in that in that major. It is hard to say, but those guys got kicked out in my sophomore year. My roommate, I told you about, he was involved in that. There was about half dozen-dozen that did not graduate because they were shamed out of the school. And it was, it was a was scandalous, what was going on. And, you know, I did not blow the whistle on these guys. I just go away. I do not want to know about it. IG: 19:41 Right-right. Kennedy assassination. BS: 19:45 Oh yeah, our yearbook. I remember I was in the snack bar. You know, everybody remembers where they were. And there is a picture in my yearbook, which I have at home. My house burnt down, but that did not burn. And. Then whoever took I-I am in one of the pictures, and we are just like this, you know, totally morose and sad and looking down, and that was captured in the yearbook. Did you ever see the yearbooks back? IG: 20:16 Yes-yes-yes. BS: 20:17 Okay, there is pictures of the Kennedy the day Kennedy was killed. Very moving, but it was just I was I remember being in the snack bar. Snack bar was like the womb. It was where everybody went. And I will tell you a cute story. Perhaps I am now living in Phoenix. I have all kids who are about how old eight, seven, ten, eight and eleven, and a bunch of families going to the movies on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, and we are going to see the In-laws. And I had no idea Andrew Bergman wrote this, and I am sitting in the movie, and I am laughing louder, harder than everybody else in the theater, and I said out loud, and my wife will swear to this, this feels like I am in the snack bar, and it was Andrew Bergman who hung out in a snack bar. This is same humor that I grew up with in Harpur College. Was in that movie, you know, the movie IG: 21:24 With De Niro. BS: 21:25 No Peter Faulk. IG: 21:27 Oh-oh [crosstalk] BS: 21:29 Go see it on Netflix. It is one of the it is, Peter Faulk and Alan Arkin. IG: 21:36 Yeah, they are great actors. BS: 21:37 And Alan Arkin is this dentist, and Peter Faulk is his, who knows? Why is his CIA agent? We do not know for sure. And he gets Alan Arkin, who is his most upright, prudish kind of guy, to go to South America to some banana republic. And they get into these scrapes and-and they are running because people are shooting at them. And the famous scene is, is that Peter Faullk is saying serpentine-serpentine so they have to go back. Serpentines means when we run like this. So, he has already run straight, has not been shot now he has to go back and sir. It is hilarious, but it was the humor that I knew and felt comfortable with from Harpur College snack bar. IG: 22:17 It comes from another place. It comes from another place. It comes from, you know, maybe New York City. BS: 22:26 Oh, yeah. Andrew Burton was from New York City. IG: 22:28 Exactly. BS: 22:29 Of course. IG: 22:29 That is where- BS: 22:30 But that, but we infected the snack bar, and that is, you know, that is how we sat around. And there is those that have, not jokes that we told, but those-those- IG: 22:41 Kind of humor. BS: 22:41 Yeah. IG: 22:42 Which is, how would you describe this humor? BS: 22:46 It is kind of little bit it is a it is a little screwy. It is not, it is not [inaudible] young men telling jokes. It is kind of a warp view of the world. The other story I heard about Andrew Bergman, who wrote Blazing Saddles. Now that you have seen, right? IG: 23:07 Yes. BS: 23:08 And Mel Brooks confirmed this about two or three years ago. He had this one-on-one interview on HBO for a couple hours. Was one of my- I was a big thing at Harpur College too. Was a 2000-year-old man? They just came out. Mel Brooks and Carl Erin is 2000-year-old man on record came out just before at that time, and we used to speak to each other from phrases from the record, I will never walk. I do not walk for a bus will always be another. You know, fear is the main compulsion, propulsion, whatever. The story I heard, and it was kind of confirmed by Mel Brooks, is that Bergman wrote this book Blazing Saddles. He went on to history at Wisconsin for post graduate. And it's, I never read the book, and a movie theater picked it up and says to Bergman, write the script. And this is a story I heard. Bergman had a lot of trouble writing the screenplay, and he was not producing, and he had writer's block, and he had all those problems. So, the studio says, "Okay, we will give you some help." So, Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor are hired to help Andrew Bergman write this script. And can you, I always say this, can you imagine sitting in a room with these guys? They are crazy. I mean [crosstalk] of course, everybody would have had a peak into that. So Blazing Saddles then gets published, I mean, produced, and it is incredible. And it is that humor. Also, it is the opening scene when Mel Brooks is Indian chief and comes up on these African Americans who are working on the railroad, and he goes schwatzers. IG: 24:54 [laughs] BS: 24:54 It is class, it is classic. That is classic. IG: 24:58 That is very New York. BS: 25:01 How much more New York can you be- IG: 25:03 No, you cannot. BS: 25:04 -than Mel Brooks, and it is just, I went to see Blazing Saddles. I had just it was early (19)70s. I moved here in (19)71 to Phoenix, and we went out with another couple, also from New York, who have been here a few years long, more than we have, and we went to see Blazing Saddles in the movies. And as we are walking into the theater, there is this family of cowboys and cow girls and cow, cow father, cow mother and five, five or six cow kids in their cowboy hats and their boots. They are thinking they go to see, going to see a shoot them up. And they go into a Wayne movie, right? They go in, they sit down in the theater and kind of watching them. And the opening scene, when Mel Brooks goes Schwartz, they on-on mass, get up and leave the theater. Phoenix is not New York, no, it is not. It is not, it is, it is more and more it is, you know, it is, it is progressing. This was a small Southwestern town. It is still conservative, but there is a lot more of that happening. liberal stuff happening anyway. So, I do not that is fine. I knew Andrew Bergman a little bit. And I remember when I went to see the movie with Bert Parks that he wrote about stuffed animals. They were killing these rare birds and rare animals. I forget what they are doing. It was, it was a ridiculously comic type of thing. Bert Parks played his Miss America role, and Marlon Brando had a role in that, in which he played, which he mocked himself in The Godfather. And I remember writing a letter to, I do not know if he ever wrote back, writing a letter to Andrew Bergen and say, “How did you ever get Marlon Brando to sit down and accept this role?” I forget the name of the movie, but it is a Bergman was good. He was he has not done anything in a long time. I do not think, but I think he was very successful. I think he had a place on Central Park, South or North, or whatever, and. IG: 27:26 Let us talk about you then. BS: 27:27 Okay. IG: 27:28 Okay, so, I mean, you obviously had an interest in comedy. BS: 27:33 Well, yeah, I like [crosstalk] IG: 27:35 Films? BS: 27:36 Yeah. IG: 27:37 Was that- was there an opportunity to do that at Harpur was- BS: 27:43 A little bit. IG: 27:43 Film Club, or- BS: 27:44 I have to go to the restroom. Can we shut this off for a while when we do that? Professor is the one that I remember was Sidney Harcave, who was a preeminent Russian history scholar. I took two or three classes with him. We used his textbook Russia, a history and I remember once I had three finals on one day, and I was freaking out, and I went to him, and his advice to me was, get a good night's sleep. I wanted to take it some other time, but he would not do that. He was really fantastic professor, and I really enjoyed his classes, walking around campus. I am remembering now things like Sid Arthur Herman has his novels, the kids walking around reading that stuff, part of the, you know, the evolution of-of these young people who are starting to sprout their own wings and separate themselves from their parents’ generation and from and changing the cultural surroundings that they were part of. There was a beehive of that kind of activity back in the (19)60s. [crosstalk] Yeah, I mean, I did not understand I was not the scholar they were. So, I was kind of listening to them talk about it. But I had a girlfriend who was a literature major, and Deborah Tanner was her best friend. I mean, I had, if I wanted to talk to these people, I had, I had to pick up the book that they were reading, kind of and but I enjoyed it. I mean, it was, it was a wonderful awakening coming, you know, coming of age kind of a thing. There was, you know, I still look back upon those days terribly fondly, and always felt very fortunate that I had that opportunity. But on the other hand, having gone to Harpur College, there was a little bit of a of a burden in that when I graduated law school and I went out interviewing for jobs, I put down Harpur College and all that stuff. The first question I got from everybody interviewing me, where is Harpur College? Nobody ever heard of it. This is 1968, (19)69 and it was a bit of a, you know, an obstacle. IG: 30:13 It was in you- BS: 30:15 It was founded in 1948 and it had an amazing reputation, but nobody knew about it. It was not known. And these high-priced lawyers in these large law firms who went to all the Ivy League schools and were snobs about that, their first question to me was, where is Harpur College? So, I would not answer, but I had this. It was, it was incredible. Every single interview I got that same question. They never heard of it. They have now. IG: 30:48 They have now, and they have- BS: 30:51 And, I am sorry, they changed the name because the name, you know, I understand, [crosstalk], yeah, they changed it two or three times. It was SUNY at Binghamton. It was Binghamton University. Harpur College developed a great name. I am sorry that it was not still not the name of the school. IG: 31:09 Yeah, because, as someone told me, you know it your generation got the end and the generation. Well, while Harpur College existed, that you got an elite education, liberal arts education for almost no money. BS: 31:34 Right. I think we had an incoming class. It was told student body was about 1000 our incoming class is about 300 something. 10 percent of those kids were valedictorians in high school. Mean, these were top students in each of their schools who could not afford to go to an Ivy League school. This was the their-their opportunity, and the school thrived because of not only the professors being like Sidney Harcave, this preeminent scholar in his field. There were others in geology, there were in in all different all different departments, but the kids were very active and creative, and they part of what created that environment, not just the professors. It was that it was this frenetic activity, the civil rights movement and the war in Vietnam, obviously was heating up things I was thinking about that one of my good friends who was a year ahead of me. He was on the basketball team, Kenny Hoffman. His name is on the Vietnam Memorial in DC. He was a pilot, and he was killed, and it was not much after we graduated, we needless to say, most of the students were very actively opposed to the war, and I was really was not sure I was one of them. And after I graduated, I marched in down Fifth Avenue. I was anti-war, and I really did not understand as much until I saw Ken Burns thing on-on public TV. IG: 33:28 Emily being your- you said, Emily. BS: 33:32 No-no, Ken Burns. IG: 33:34 Ken Burns. No. You said, somebody did not understand. BS: 33:39 I did not. IG: 33:39 You did not understand. BS: 33:40 I did not understand why I was so it was the- my friends were opposed to it. So, I am I did not really understand the gravity, the gravitas, the you know, that, you know, I hated Nixon and I hated the war and I did all that stuff, but not. It was not until I became a lot, until recently, really, when all came together with-with-with Ken Burns's incredible documentary on the Vietnam War. It was amazing. It was just a hell hole. Kick any deeper and deeper, and I did not really appreciate it at that time. I was not as knowledgeable. It was not as aware. IG: 34:21 And all the people that orchestrated it already knew that it was, BS: 34:25 I am not sure. They were kids. They were rebelling. They were revolting. IG: 34:26 The administration- BS: 34:28 Oh yeah, they knew Johnson knew he was caught me, lied about Tonkin Gulf and all that to get us in there, just like George W Bush did to get us into Iraq. IG: 34:43 So, there was Vietnam moving over. All of you did that create anxiety? BS: 34:51 Yeah, sure, the draft and the war and all that. I do not remember it exactly, but we were so opposed to it, we could never see ourselves carrying a gun in Vietnam. It did not make any sense. IG: 35:07 Did your professors support you? BS: 35:10 A lot of them did. BS: 35:11 They did not need to. They did not need it. We did not need protection. We did not need protection. We were not doing anything illegal. We were not doing anything that was going to get us in trouble. We were not, you know- IG: 35:11 Did they sort of protect you? IG: 35:26 Did they encourage you to go on to grad school? BS: 35:29 John LaTourette encouraged me to go on to economics. He gave me a reference letter. And actually, lots of rec, I think, was from Rutgers. I had spent some time there, and he got me a fellowship, which I felt badly about, but I said, it is not for me. IG: 35:51 So, what happened next? You dropped out of Rutgers. How did you become? I mean, give me sort of the arc of your career. How did you become a superior court judge? BS: 36:06 That is a very it is interesting to me. I am not sure to anybody else, but I am trying to think of whether I should, I should say this on the record, but I dropped out of graduate school in Rutgers after one semester, and I knew that I am looking at being drafted. I do not have any-any educational protection, so I applied. I had been accepted in graduate school at City University in New York, and I lasted. I went about a month, and I just stopped going. I never quit. I never announced it resignation letter. I just stopped going. So, I am knowing that in my mind, I got to, you know, I got to figure out something a lot of a lot of people I knew were signing up on in reserve units to avoid getting drafted, to delay it by a year or two, my best man at my wedding who was simpatico, and all the things that we felt at the time. He winds up going to officer candidate training school in the Marines, and he is now in Vietnam as a second lieutenant, which is the most dangerous position on the battlefield. He is the guy saying, follow me, and he gets shot in the back by his own men. He survived, thank God, but he went, he signed up in a reserve unit that got activated, and he is now in Vietnam. That is the kind of stuff that was happening that was after we graduated. So going to law school had a lot to do with figuring that piece out. I did not really ever dream of being a lawyer. IG: 37:47 What did you dream of becoming? BS: 37:49 Nothing. IG: 37:50 Nothing? BS: 37:51 I could not play professional baseball because I was not good enough and I was too short for basketball. So, I had no dreams. My father had a nice business. My father was such a wonderful man. He would have embraced the fact, if I would have gone into business with him, it would have been the happiest man in the world. He understood that I did not want to do that, and he encouraged me to do whatever I wanted. So, I went to law school. I applied late. I got accepted to Brooklyn Law School, St John's law school, and I think I was rejected NYU in Columbia, maybe because it was late, maybe because I was not good enough. A lot of Harpur graduates were at St John's, people a year ahead of me or two, and I knew them pretty well, and it was easy for me to get in, you know, to kind of be engulfed and protected by them. So, I went to St John's. I was living at my parents’ house, and on Long Island. I take the train every day from Long Island to Brooklyn. Was in Brooklyn, and now it is in Queens, and I did real well. I was like top five in my first-first semester, and I thought I flunked out. I went on a ski trip with some of these my friends from Harpur who were your head of me, and I told them, I am not even buying my books for next semester I flunked out. They laughed at me. I am telling you, I flunked out. We were at the ski trip, and my mother calls and she reads me my grades, and they sounded okay. And I tell these graceton, these friends of mine, they said, “My God, you are probably number one in the class.” I said “I was number five.” I made Law Review, which is a whole other world in law school, it is a you spend a lot of time with the elites of the elite students in law school, putting together a legal magazine, periodical. I scholarly, and you spend hours reading and editing and discussing and looking for it is, it is a whole other life. And I did that for the rest of my law school career. And I did, I did not study as hard because I had Law Review for one thing. And I thought it was a piece of cake now. So, I went from like an 85 average to a 77 average in my second semester, then I kind of leveled out. I did okay. I did not. Was not good enough to get a job in the big Wall Street firms because they never heard of Harpur College. For one thing, my first job out of law school- IG: 40:17 When was this? What year? BS: 40:20 I graduated law school in (19)68 if I would have graduated with my class would have been (19)67 but I spent that year screwing around graduate school, and I still had to worry about the draft, because now I was about 25 and 26 is the magic number, so one of the things I did was to apply. I got a job within what is called OEO, legal services for the poor, Office of Economic Opportunity, federal concept, and John-Robert Kennedy had a lot to do with that, bringing publicly funded law firms, in effect, into the ghettos to assist the people who live there. IG: 41:08 Is that a precursor of legal aid- BS: 41:10 Legal Aid in New York was criminal, so this was the civil side. IG: 41:14 I see, I see. BS: 41:15 And that is where I got a job and I applied to the to the Selective Service that I think what I am doing here is more important to my country than carrying a gun in Vietnam did not work, so I eventually did not, did not have to get drafted. It is a long story that I am not going to tell now, but a lot of what I did, and a lot of my-my-my friends, were doing this frenzy time was figuring out ways not to get killed in Vietnam. Trump does. Trump did the same thing. You know, my I never mind. So, I really took the law school, and I graduated in (19)68 I am working at Bedford Stuyvesant, legal services for the community center, whatever borrow legal services for the poor, going down every day with 10,15, files the landlord and tenant court representing people that were being evicted and it was not going anywhere. It was not a job that [phone rings] I will let Chelsea answer that. So, then I got a job in a small Wall Street firm does not exist anymore. It was like 12 lawyers, not a big they had some big clients, some big Israeli connected Bank Leumi, Israel was a big client of theirs and other Israeli connected businesses. And then my wife. IG: 42:58 How did you meet your wife? Is that your wife? BS: 43:01 That is my wife. IG: 43:01 Yeah, I thought so. BS: 43:03 We have a great first date story. But I guess, since I am revealing so much about myself, I will tell you that in a moment. But my wife said to me, this is now 1970ish, and I am working now at [inaudible] and Bookstein, no longer it in Bedford, Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. And she is from Connecticut. She went to NYU, that is where we met, and she is working in the city we have by the time we move; our daughter was eight months old. But before we had children, she was working at banker's trust thing, which is now Bank of America, and doing very well working on whatever. She was having horrible experiences on the subway with perverts on the subway, and she said, "I cannot I cannot stand this anymore. I- we have to move." So, the logical thing for any New Yorker like myself, she is not a New Yorker, was to move to Long Island or Westchester or New Jersey. And we looked at some houses, and then we kind of looked at each other, and we said, “Boy, if we get, if we move and keep this job, we are stuck for the rest. We cannot move. We are, we are just imprisoned by this system. We cannot afford ever, or buy in a house we cannot afford whatever.” So, we said, “Let us take a look at this.” I never heard of Phoenix. I heard of Phoenix. I never knew anything about it, and I was out of a law school friend of mine, we graduated, and we were at a party at his house, and we are sitting around, what do you want to move to? What do you want to do? I do not want to go to Miami. It is too it is too much like New York. It is too much the same. So, somebody says, What about Phoenix, Arizona? I said, “Where is it? What is it?” So, I had, we had from law school. We had these little two by four little diaries, pocket diaries that a large publishing house handed out. And they had an atlas, and they had all the states broken down by Northeast, Northwest, and there was Arizona, right next to New Mexico, next to Texas, and it was close to Las Vegas. This far from LA looked like a good place, and I started reading about it. They have not. They just established an NBA basketball franchise that is important. So, sight unseen. Basically, I came out here for an exploratory run. Nothing happened, and we packed up. Six months later, we packed without a job, we packed up. We just moved out here. Some connections. I had to take the bar exam in those days. You had to have a six-month residency, and then you took the bar exam. Not true anymore today, so I got a job in a firm because I was not licensed to just do Scrivener work for a couple $100 a month. I still had to look for a real job. And I finally got a job in a law firm downtown, a prominent personal injury law firm, which I knew nothing about. And I was there from (19)72 to (19)77 when I formed a partnership with an older friend of mine, and we were together from (19)77 to about (19)84 and we kind of split the sheets, and we kept the name, but I was on my own, kind of building a practice. Meanwhile, friends of mine, good friends of mine, are applying and becoming judges on the Superior Court or state court of general jurisdiction, and I am talking to my friends and, "Gee, that sounds like a nice gig. I mean, I like to do that. " And I am 42, 43 years old, kind of young, but it is- we have merit selection in Arizona. We do not have general elections. Least the three largest counties in Arizona, you go through a screening process, you make an application, there is a commission that is half lawyers, half lay people presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. You submit your application. In my day, there was like 75 applicants for two positions. They call through them, 15 or so are then interviewed, then they take five and they send it to the governor, and the governor must choose from that short list, and half of that short list has to be different political parties. So, depoliticize it is to bring it is called Merit selection, and it was kind of new at the time it came in, oh, maybe a few years before that, I would never run for election. It is not who I am. Bruce Babbitt was the governor at the time, and I did my application, got my interview, and I was appointed on the first shot, which was not remarkable, but it was usually it is two or three times when you to get it. I was very fortunate. IG: 48:16 What kind of cases did you try? BS: 48:18 Well, we have three departments. We have, well, we have more than that. We have a civil department, we have a criminal department, we have a probate department. Most of my time as a private lawyer was in civil. I did not do any criminal, really. I did some domestic relation. Domestic Relations was the other one. Domestic Relations, probate, civil and criminal. I did when I left the firm and joined with this guy. I needed business, so I did anything that came in the door, and I did some divorce work, which nobody wants to do. So, the- our court is a court of general jurisdiction, which means we are, we are not a local justice of the peace court. We are not- we do not hear small matters. We hear major matters, major felonies, murders, kidnapping and we hear major civil cases for millions of dollars as well as little cases. So, we hear, as a civil in the civil department, we hear everything that could be filed, medical malpractice case, lawyer malpractice case, products liability case, automobile accidents, partnership dissolutions, real estate fraud, transactions, everything that you ever learned about in law school is on your plate as a civil department judge, criminal is what you would expect in criminal. I had no, no background the criminal, but I took to it, and I need today, 10, 15, years, 12 years after I retired, I will run into one of the lawyers used to practice in my court, and they think of me as a criminal person, criminal, you know, and I am not. It took me six months to learn the language I. Had no idea what was going on when I was on criminal. I was scared to death. I mean, I look out on the morning. We have a morning calendar in criminal and that is when we do our sentencings, emotions for release, our conferences before we did our trials. And there would be maybe 12 inmates sitting there in the jury box waiting for their case to be called, and on that side of the room, maybe their family members are sitting behind them, and on the other side of the room is the is, is the victims, and then there is the prosecutors and the defense lawyers. And I used to walk out on a bench. I used to look at this array, and I say to myself, I know less than every one of these people in this courtroom about what I am doing, but it took me about six months, and all of a sudden, I had- IG: 50:49 You gained the confidence just by doing up and doing it. BS: 50:53 Reading it and figuring it out and understanding the lexicon. And it is not really hard. It is the easiest for me. It is the easiest. It was the easiest assignment. Criminal. There was some- IG: 51:04 What was the hardest? BS: 51:06 Civil was the hardest in terms of the difficulty of the issues. The hardest assignment probably was domestic relations, because you had to resolve unresolvable disputes. There was never enough money to go around, never enough time with the children. And you had people fighting it, you know, because they hated each other, and that was difficult on the toll it took on you personally, civil was the most difficult because the issues were the most, the most difficult. IG: 51:44 Like what issues did you- BS: 51:47 Just itis evolved. Now, you know, I have been gone 12 years, but I do mediation, so I see the cases at the mediation stage, and there is summary judgments, you know, 10 inches thick that you have to read through and prepare for oral argument to decide and on our court. We do not have any research assistance. We do not have any staff. We do it by ourselves. It is very, very time consuming, and it's, you know, every commercial case, they think they have entitlement to a summary judgment as a matter of law. So, they file one or two or more, and it is pages and pages and pages of stuff on. Could be economic loss rule. It could be on, you know, whatever legal doctrine is being bad need about, and it is constantly evolving and changing. You got to keep up. I got invited fairly often to speak at State Bar seminars on various issues, which was a challenge for me. IG: 52:50 What kind of issues Did you speak about? BS: 52:53 Motion practice, how to write motions, how to be more persuasive. I wrote about evidence, evidentiary things I spoke about number of times on some ethical issues the Code of Professional Conduct. IG: 53:11 Such as? BS: 53:12 Candor toward the tribunal. Point 3.3. Of the Code of Professional Conduct, you must be candid in front of a judge. You cannot be misleading or lie. And there are cases that are very interesting reads, and I would talk about that, you know, beyond the faculty, talking about things like that, oh, I do not remember all the things on my website, if you I do not know if you looked at my website. You might want to do that. I describe some of the things, you know, speech, speaking engagements, I have not had much lately. That is part of my problem. If it is a problem to where I am not as busy now, 12 years after I retired as it was three years after I retired, because nobody knows me anymore, I was a known item when I retired from the bench. IG: 53:59 Why do not you teach? BS: 54:01 I also taught at school. IG: 54:02 Really? BS: 54:04 I taught at ASU Sandra Day O'Connor School of Law. Taught for about five or six years. They had a very interesting civil practice. No, not civil practice, lawyering Theory and Practice class, which was basically a hands-on student. It was a lottery to get into those classes. They had to argue cases, try a case, and I was one of the faculty that took one of the little sections. And for about five or six years, I was a what is the word that you use for a professor? IG: 54:43 Adjunct. BS: 54:44 What? IG: 54:44 Adjunct. BS: 54:45 Adjunct at a new law school, which is now going out of business, Phoenix School of Law. I taught civil practice there for a few times, for a few semesters, while I was on the bench, because I was thinking of doing that when I retired being a law professor. But I did, fortunately, I did that on a full-time basis while still on the bench. I said, this is real work. I do not want to do this. The worst part of it was the grading. Was the creating the final exam and then grading it. I do not want to still hard. So, I just- IG: 55:18 Got a graduate assistant? BS: 55:19 No-no, I was the I was assisting the other professors in doing this. They were not going to assist me. IG: 55:29 No. Things, things run differently, actually, not differently. But, you know, you could employ a graduate assistant from the law department. BS: 55:38 Possibly. But I just, I like the I like the classroom. I like the interaction with the class. I am actually going down next this later this month, two young lawyers I know are teaching this class at ASU, and they invited me to be a guest for one of their nights, which I did last year. It is fun. I enjoy tremendously interacting with young lawyers. I enjoy interacting when a judge, when a new judge, is appointed to my bench, if I happen to have some connection, maybe through a friend or whatever, I try to reach out and say, here is some tips and whatever, I enjoy that. IG: 56:19 Have you considered speaking at Binghamton? I mean, there is no law school, but there is a pre law program. BS: 56:24 I have not considered it, but- IG: 56:24 You have not considered it. BS: 56:24 Well, it is a long trip. IG: 56:27 It is a long trip. BS: 56:33 I do. I go back. I went back to reunion on three, four years ago. I was there in 2008 which is when I got the Distinguished Alumni Award. So, I went back for that, and I went back once or twice after that, both times saying studying at my friend Tony D Aristotle's house on Carroll Street Downtown Binghamton, right next to the Italian American club. You know what that is? IG: 56:56 Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. BS: 56:58 It has got this old house is over 100 years old. It is great. IG: 57:03 You promised to tell me about- BS: 57:06 My first date. People actually asked me to tell this story. My wife hates it every now, but last couple times, tell them how we had our first date. Okay, I am in my second year in law school in Brooklyn, New York, at St John's University. And a friend of mine from Harpur, a teammate named Roy Tompowski. He may have run across him. He is a pretty active alum. He is an accountant. Lives in Westchester, and Roy calls me, I want to be disparaging, because I am on the record, and says I got a girl for you. All right, Roy, you know what-what is the story? Well, she is at NYU uptown. She is a junior, she is very pretty, and she is very smart, and she is from Connecticut, okay, I will give her a call. So, I-I call once, and I do not roommate answers call another time, another time, and finally, we make this date for Friday night. What I find out later is that she had a boyfriend that she goes out with on Saturday nights, but she is trying to break up with him. So, she tells Roy at a party that she went to camp, the same camp Roy went to, that is the connection. And she was at a party of all the camp guys, and she went up to Roy, and she said, you know, you have a guy for me. So, Roy says, Yeah, but he may be too short for you peanuts anyway. So, she has worried about that. That is what she knows. So, we finally make this day for Friday night. And I figured I am living in Brooklyn. I had this new TR four that I got when I graduated. Sometimes I got somewhere along the way, and she is up in the Bronx, you know, the city at all, New York City. Okay, good. So I am in Brooklyn, Atlantic Avenue area by downtown Brooklyn. She is up upper she is right by, well, she is NYU uptown, okay, which is where the Hall of Fame was, Fordham Road, and about 200 and something street go up the West Side Highway. So, I decide to plan this evening for this first date for this hick from Connecticut. So, I decide the theme will be, I am going to show her how real New Yorkers live. So, I took up there, pick her up. I do not you know. First Date never met her, and the first stop was the Upper West Side to the Improv, okay, which was just opening at the time year or two. We do not remember what act we saw, but we think it was probably somebody like, was not Robin Williams, but it was Steve. What is his name? Could have been. Somebody? No, no, it was another guy. Used to be a school teacher in New York. Anyway, I have seen 1000 times. Cannot remember his name. He has been on Broadway a lot in the Wasserstein plays wrong. I cannot remember his name. Anyway, we do not remember what we saw. That was the first stop to about 10ish or so, and then I the next stop, I do not tell her, is to go from the Upper West Side down to the lower east side to catch this delicatessen. Okay, we are really, real New Yorkers. Hang out. So, we are driving down. We are making first date kind of conversation. What is your favorite color, that kind of stuff? Who is your favorite singer? What do you know, all that garbage? So, we drive, I drive, and I park, and she does not say anything. We go into cats' you ever been to cats? BS: 1:00:50 It is cavernous. It is huge, and you have a choice when you go in. You can either go to the left for waiter service, or you go to the right for counter service. Waiter service, a little more expensive. I am a poor law student. I cannot afford the waiter service. I tell her I would love to have a pastrami on rye, but I cannot afford that. So, I have what New York is called two with which are two hot dogs [inaudible] and sauerkraut. For those who are not initiated, she announces that she does not really like this kind of food. It is almost like Annie Hall. She does not really like this food, so she orders a turkey on rye. I go get my two hot dogs with we continue our small talk and in cats as you get this little ticket that you, they punch as to how much you owe, we are standing on line now to pay. We are about three or four deep, and at the cash register there is this older guy, probably 30 years younger than I am now, but an older guy, little bit of a palsy, a little bit of shaking, and he is obviously an owner. He is looking around making sure nobody is stealing any silverware, that kind of a look. So, we are getting closer and closer, and then we get about one removed, and this old guy says, "Hi Willa." She goes, "Hi, Benny." What is going on here? So, Benny, turns out he is a minority owner of Katz's delicatessen. The majority owner is her uncle, Willa's uncle, Lenny, who is her mother's brother, Willa is named after William Katz, her maternal grandfather, who pre deceased her. She is named Willa because her mother wanted to name her after her father. So, she is named after the founder of Katz's delicatessen. This is her family. IG: 1:00:50 Yes. IG: 1:02:40 And she did not tell you. IG: 1:02:41 What does your wife do? Did she continue working in a bank? BS: 1:02:41 No, she-she, dropped out of, I think she dropped out of graduate. I do not think she ever got her graduate degree. Children were born. We moved out here. She started working for me when I was in practice, and kind of like doing my books and stuff, not doing any reception in and then when I got appointed to the bank, she was without a job, so then she went to work for a friend of ours. Was a lawyer, kind of running his office. And then I think he retired, and then she basically stopped working in that kind of a situation. She does a lot of charitable work. Now she has got five grandkids, and all that back is not great. BS: 1:02:41 Never said a word, and Benny comped us. We did not pay. So, I am going, I could have a pastrami sandwich. And after we got married, we were still living in New York for those first three years. We used to get care packages from Katz. You cannot believe the pounds of roast beef that we would get hot dogs like an electrical wire. We did not pay for it. So that is my first date story I submit to you. It is one of the best first date stories you will ever hear. So, she never told me. She never she cut she was from Connecticut. She did not really, she said, this looks familiar. She knew it when she walked in there. But driving up, she never said anything, and certainly did not say anything when she walked in the Annie Hall thing, if you remember Annie Hall, Woody Allen in a deli with what is her name, Diane Keaton, and she orders like a roast beef on white with butter, and he goes, shiska. Was not quite like that, because she is not a shiska; so, but my wife, but she does not like this food. IG: 1:04:47 Well, she is beautiful. I you know, let us think about wrapping up this conversation. But you know, the final question that I ask. What lessons do you did you learn from the-the- this time in your life, that Harpur College? BS: 1:05:11 Lessons that I learned, the important importance of friendship, I made really good friends that I am so many. Some of them, I am still friendly with that. I am still the importance of having that warmth in your life, that support in your life, people who care about you, people that you care about. It was really a very nurturing place. In fact, when people graduate like Mickey Greenberg. You must know Mickey. Everybody knows Mickey well. One of me is very close friend of mine. We were teammates together. He was a great basketball player. He has died in the wool Brooklyn, New York. His parents were there. He lives in Binghamton. Since he graduated. He it is the womb. It was considered the womb, but there is that nurturing sense of the place that I carry with me, and I look back so fondly on, what did I learn? I mean, I learned what anybody does who becomes more worldly wise and on his own or her own, without parents constantly saying, do your homework, that kind of thing. You got to figure things out for yourself. But that is true in any that is true in any university, but in particular in Binghamton, I am not sure it was a learning thing as much as an experience of the warmth and the nurture and of the surroundings of the people that you were there with. It was an amazing experience for me. IG: 1:06:41 Well, thank you very much for this amazing interview. Been very wonderful talking to you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barry Schneider Subject The topic of the resource Nineteen sixties; Harpur College; Alumni and alumnae Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schneider, Barry ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Recipient of Distinguished Alumnus Award. Principal of Schneider Mediation. Avid athlete at Harpur College. (His nickname at Harpur was “Peanuts.”) Mediation judge in Phoenix. He (Ret.) served on the Maricopa County Superior Court for 21 years, from 1986 to 2007. He first practiced in New York City and moved to Phoenix in 1971. He was an associate at Langerman, Begam, Lewis, Leonard & Marks until 1977, when he formed the partnership Rosen & Schneider, Ltd. He has a strong background in Arizona civil litigation from the perspective of both a judge and a civil trial attorney. While on the bench, he served on the Criminal Department, in addition to serving as Presiding Civil Department Judge and Presiding Family Law Judge. His 18-month tenure on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Committee on Jury Reform led to groundbreaking changes in the rules and practice of jury trials in Arizona. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Barry Schneider.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2019-03-11 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:48 minutes