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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
(2009-07-25)(2009-08-12)
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Pete Seeger, 1919-2014
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition, to being a folk singer he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded an album in '78 called \"Songs of the Lincoln Battalion\" with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition, to being a folk singer he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded a 78 RPM album called <em>Songs of the Lincoln Battalion</em> with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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80:25
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rolf in the Woods: The Adventures of a Boy Scout with Indian Quonab and Little Dog Skookum (Book); Ernest Thompson Seton; Theodore Roosevelt; Eugene V. Debs; American Student Union; Woodstock; The Great Depression; Jackson State; Kent State; Songs; Voting Rights Act of 1965."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Rolf in the Woods: The Adventures of a Boy Scout with Indian Quonab and Little Dog Skookum (Book); Ernest Thompson Seton; Theodore Roosevelt; Eugene V. Debs; American Student Union; Woodstock; The Great Depression; Jackson State; Kent State; Songs; Voting Rights Act of 1965.</span>
Subject LCSH
Folk singers; Human rights workers; Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Pete Seeger
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Kashawn Hernandez
Date of interview: 25 July 2009; 8 December 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:04
PS: The whole chapter will be off the press in November.
00:10
SM: Very good. And who, who is printing it? What company?
00:13
PS: WW Norton Company. Good company.
00:17
SM: Yep.
00:19
PS: And we will go to actually go to press in a few weeks. And I hope to get an advanced copy sometime in September, October.
00:33
SM: Super. And it will be hard back too?
00:38
PS: Both. Oh, I think hardback. Like, I do not know for sure.
00:44
SM: All right I guess ̶
00:46
PS: $25. $24.95
00:51
SM: All right.
00:52
PS: Okay. All right.
00:52
SM: Ready?
00:53
PS: Remind me what your name is?
00:55
SM: My name is Steve McKiernan. I booked; I know Peggy. Peggy came to our college at Westchester University and performed and then I interviewed Peggy over the phone. Peggy is the one that called you right away and said, you need to talk to Steve and then I called you and then I sent you the questions and everything. And this book is basically a book on the boomers but it is also a lot of the things that you were involved in (19)60s and (19)50s/(19)60s and (19)70s. So, I am looking at the boomers from different aspects and getting people's opinions. First question I want to ask is, when did you think the (19)60s began? What was it, what do you think was the watershed moment from the (19)60s?
01:44
PS: I would say in the (19)50s there were extraordinary things happening, the civil rights movement ̶ started in colleges throughout the north. There were people who went down to help, there were white students who went down to help Dr. King. Freedom summer was officially 1964. But before that they were going down there to help out. And, my guess is Woodstock made a big, big change because people who did not go to Woodstock saw the movie Woodstock, right? And I tell people, the most popular song in America was "123 What Are We Fighting For?" The (19)60s were over then. It was 1970 when the movie was out, but (19)69 was Woodstock. There were things before this, like the Newport Folk Festival. The Clearwater started in (19)69. See what could be the (19)60s, offhand, I just cannot think.
03:25
SM: Do you think there was one event? When you look at the boomers ̶ they were the people born between 1946 and 1964. What do you think in their eyes was the most important event that happened in their lives ̶ that may have shaped them the most?
03:42
PS: Well, I do not know. I cannot think of any one thing. It is a lot of little things. Because this is me ̶ I started singing in colleges in 1953. Up till that time I sang at little left-wing camps and an occasional lefty hotel or some place called Music Inn up in the Berkshires. At concerts I gave or in the Boss Circuit, that would be a place I would sing, so I do not think if any one thing. For some it might been a festival, who knows. But it could have been lots of little things.
05:05
SM: Lots of little things, not a little thing, not one specific thing. How do you feel when you hear people like George Will or Newt Gingrich or individuals, look at the boomer generation, blame all the problems of American society on this group of people, that they love them say that the breakup the American family, the drugs, that values went down? How do you feel when you hear those people say those things about that time?
05:39
PS: The poor people do not know what they are talking about. There is a drug problem, incidentally, did you ever hear of Kurt Vonnegut?
05:54
SM: Oh yeah.
05:54
PS: Statement about says, if people ask me, what do you think America's greatest cultural contribution to the world has been many would say jazz. I love jazz, jazz is good, but I would say Alcoholics Anonymous. It showed a way to help people who are alcoholics without having to spend a lot of money. They just get together and they admit, they have all got a problem. And they talk over their problem with each other and said, with God's help, we are going to kick this habit. It was a truly great cultural invention.
06:45
SM: So those individuals that do kind of do broad based attacks on a group of people, you think they were way out left field?
06:54
PS: You know, people who think that passing a law against it is the way to solve a problem. They just they did not take learn from prohibition ̶ prohibition just created a whole lot of gangsters who made a lot of money out of prohibition and people could get drunk by paying money to the right gangster.
07:17
SM: When you performed in the say in the (19)60s and through the middle (19)70s and you saw these students, well, and nonstudents who were in the in your audience and then of course, a lot has been written on them since. What do you think of the strength of that group of young people? Because you have been performing for young people since the (19)40s and (19)50s. And, but when you are getting specifically into those people that were born after World War II, raised by parents, oftentimes people that fought in the war and went through the depression and tried to give their kids as much as they could that they did not have, what would you say would be the strengths and the weaknesses of that generation?
08:06
PS: These are interesting questions. I think it is the interesting thing that it was a middle-class movement in many ways. These were not ignorant sharecroppers who had not barely gone through the third grade in school. These were ̶ they had the good education. And they could see the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Maybe I could be looking at my own experience. I came from a family of teachers. My grandfather was a small businessman and a Republican from old New England. My grandmother was a, his wife, was a member of the Mayflower. But as a child, I read the books of Ernest Thompson Seaton, he wrote about American Indians. I do not know if you ever heard of heard of Seaton. He wrote, he was sold widely to teenagers in the first two and a half decades. His first best seller was in the 1890s. I read a book called Ralph in the Woods when I was eight years old. It was written for twelve or thirteen years old, but I was eight. I was a good reader. And that is the story of a thirteen-year-old being beaten by a stepfather and he runs off into the woods. This is the year 1810. And there has a wigwam in the woods of Indian, whose tribe had been massacred. His wife had been sold into slavery. And he is living in this wigwam trapping a few animals and exchanging their skins for a few things at the corner store that he needs. Ralph says, Can I stay with you overnight, my stepfather is going to beat me. And the Indian says, Sure roll up in the corner. In the morning, the stepfather arrives. Oh, you will with Indian, I am going to get my gun. Now that both are in trouble, they flee up the Hudson Valley to the Adirondacks and work for a local Dutch farmer. Worked for local Dutch farmer for a month and earned enough money to buy some traps and other tools they need. Now they hit into Adirondacks and build a cabin. And the next few years, every chapter of the book is another nature lesson. Some of them are funny when the dog meets a porcupine. Some of them are almost tragic. Ralph, the boy fit now a fourteen-year-old or fifteen. He sees two male deer with an Atlas hook that cannot escape, and one of them is dead and the other trying to free himself but he cannot get free and Ralph goes up and frees the live deer but now the live deer is crazy and he charges Ralph and pins roll to the ground. You know Ralph is going to be ̶ the dog is well known about dogs can sense things from afar they no one knows how they do it. You know, they make a long trip and they know which direction to go and so, and the dog whines the Indian says when something has gone wrong lead me to the dog leads the Indian to where Ralph is. And the Indian shoots the deer and saves Ralph's life. Another chapter is a French Canadian in the neighboring valley is trapped by his own bear trap and cannot get out. But they free him and the French Canadian in broken English says, I will never forget you if you ever need help, call on me. Now. The next year is the war of 1812 is broken out and they are hired by the US Army to be scouts and the carry messages from east to west along the frontier. Once Ralph is running through the woods alone, and he suddenly hears a cry, “Halt.” And there is a gun pointed at him, and that is a French-Canadian soldier and it is the trapper. And he says, "Run Ralph I will shoot over your head" so well friends, the man shoots over his head, and Ralph gets away. It is an exciting novel. I got into every one of Seaton's books. I read that [Cross, Gracit and Dunlap] sold for $8 some seven books. And I persuaded my parents to invest let me buy all eight of them seven, "[Lives regrets], Lives of the Hunted. Seaton did not die till his (19)80s in the 1950s in Santa Fe, New Mexico. He had gone down there to capture [Logo] the wolf. I got into the big criticism that the American Indian has of whites was our hypocrisy.
14:27
SM: Do you think that some people say the very same thing about the boomer generation, that they are hypocrites, they felt they could change the world when they were young, they protest against, or 15% of them did. And then they have gone on to become materialistic and make a lot of money. Do you think that is true?
14:45
PS: Well, some of them did give up. I do not think that was a very wrong criticism though. They were basically protesting the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Incidentally when you speak the ruling class. Marx gave it that term. But did you ever hear of president Rutherford Hayes?
15:08
SM: Oh yeah, he was a nineteenth. President 1877. Yeah, well ̶
PS: 15:11
He was a very honest president. He only agreed to run for four years because he loved his family and did not want to subject them to that pressure for more than four years. After he was president, he liked to make speeches. He had jumped into this new invention called a railroad to go somewhere and give a speech. And in 1888, the Supreme Court handed down a famous decision ̶ there was no capital punishment for corporations. Up till that time, the state could handle it charter to a corporation. And if they did not like what the corporation was doing, they could take it away. But now, after 1888 the Supreme Court said that you can fine a cooperation if they do something wrong, but you cannot take away their corporate status. Rutherford Hayes, says face it, we no longer have a government of the people by the people for the people- we have a government of corporations by corporations, corporations and in 1891 when he met Cornelius Vanderbilt, he said we have a government of the rich by the rich for the rich. Now this was rarely said by the ruling class person, it was said by farmers or workers and squatter Eugene Debs said when he started the Socialist Party, but this is being said by people at the top. Theodore Roosevelt said it in 1906. I think I keep in my pocket pictures - this is Theodore Roosevelt.
15:43
SM: Could you read it to me? Or you want me to -
17:11
PS: "Behind the ostensible government of our country there exists a secret government not beholden to the people. To destroy this secret government, it should be the chief task of responsible statesmanship to destroy the link between corrupt business and corrupt politics.
17:40
SM: That is a beautiful quote.
17:44
PS: Well, the unholy alliance, the first task statesman, of course Franklin Roosevelt said something similar. He said, we have running the country, economic royalists. He said that in the 1930s.
18:01
SM: So, a lot of the things that the boomers were doing on college campuses in the (19)60s and challenging, again, we were talking 15 percent of people that were that age ̶ they were challenged in the universities and because they were becoming too linked to the corporations.
18:21
PS: In 1955, I was sixteen years old. And my mother drove me to Connecticut where she was teaching violin to a Jewish family. And the teenagers were studying violin. And over supper, they were asking what I was going to do with my life. I was sixteen. I said, I am going to be a hermit. That is the only way to be an honest person in this hypocritical world. I will have little to do with the world as possible. And they jumped on me ̶ if that is your idea of morality, you are going to be nice and pure yourself and let the rest of the world go to hell. And they posed my New England Thoreaulite way of thinking to their traditional Jewish sense of social content, social consciousness. And I decided they were right. So, I started getting more involved. And I, when I went to college, a year later, I got involved in student, what do you call it, the student, oh, my memories, the Harvard Student Union, the American Student Union, was the name of the organization. Actually, they had their annual meeting at Vassar because there was a liberal president at Vassar. And then I was editing the little monthly magazine for the Harvard Student Union, called the Harvard Progressive. And I did not pay attention to my marks, the high marks slipped and I lost my scholarship. So, I had to leave. I did not have enough money to go to Harvard if I did not have a scholarship. I also worked; my brothers’ help pay a third of that money. And I worked for a third of the money and the scholarship took care of a third of the money. But I was also disgusted with what I felt was the hypocrisy of some of the professors. Professor Sorokin was a social democrat. He was a friend of the guy that the Bolsheviks kicked out in Russia. And he said, do not think you can change the world. What you can do is study it. And that was trying to persuade us not to try and do some changes ̶
21:21
SM: Do you think that may have been happening in the (19)60s and (19)70s? What college students today, you know, do not you know, do not make waves just study it ̶
21:31
PS: And I decided I did not want to bother going to college, if that was the kind of people teaching here. Now, the people like Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, are the exception that proves the rule that the average teacher will tell you, you do not want to get thrown in jail, study it, and when you learn a lot, then you can do something and get in a position of importance, and you can do something.
21:56
SM: What is it about your music ̶ and I read your books. Your music is something that your dad taught you when you were young, that music was supposed to have a social content, that it was supposed to have meaning and the most important thing is writing music. It is not really the performance, but it is remembering the words. So, the impact will be lasting in the lifetime of a young person as they grow older and sharing it with their young people. What is it about your music that is so important to the boomer generation because it is, you really, you have had a lot of impact your words, in your music?
22:38
PS: I try not to lose a sense of humor. But occasionally in every program, I do something deadly serious. "Walking down death row, I sang for three men destined for the chair. Walking down death row, I sang of lives and loves in other years. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that used to be. Through the bars, into each separate cell, Yes, I sang to one and two and three. If you had only stuck together you would not be sitting here! If you could have loved each other's lives, you'd not be sitting here! And if only this you could believe, you might still, you might still be reprieved. Walking down death row, I turned the corner and found to my surprise; there were women there as well, with babies in their arms, before my eyes. Walking down death row, I tried once more to sing of hopes that used to be. But the thought of that contraption, down the hall, waiting for whole families, one dozen, two or three, if you had only stuck together, you would not be here! If you could have loved another child as well as your own, you would not be sitting here! And if only this you could believe, you might still, you might still be reprieved." The last verse. “Walking down death row, I concentrated, singing to the young. I sang of hopes that flickered still, I tried to mouth their many separate tongues. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that still might be singing, singing sing in down death row to each separate human cell, one billion, two, or three, if we would only stick together, we would not be here! If we do not really stick together, we would not be here. If we could learn to love each other's lives, we would not be sitting here! And if only this we could believe, we still might, we still might be reprieved."
25:11
SM: Okay, hold on one second. Are you excited about the anniversary of Woodstock?
25:23
PS: Not particularly. Not in favor of big things. I think the world will be saved by small things.
25:36
SM: You know, before we start, I went into Barnes and Noble bookstore. That is the place where I bought your books. And I noticed that Mr. Dunaway, his book, the paperback book, also the book the Protest Singer, which I have read them both ̶ now I have read both of them, I have underlined them. And then a book that had the CD in it with our music. It was, I forget the name of the guy who wrote it. It was up ̶
26:12
PS: Yeah, orange cover.
26:16
SM: Yeah, so the great things, and then of course your CDs are very strong at Barnes and Noble and I bought the one when I spoke to you briefly down at Beacon New York ̶ you had recommended that CD of all your music, I think it was about thirty songs and I have that too. So, but what is interesting before we start the interview, I went into the bookstore yesterday and I was kind of shocked. They have had a couple books out on Woodstock, and I know that, but you know, two or three hardbacks, but they got a whole table full of items. It has become such a commercial event. It is sometimes sickening.
27:00
PS: Yes.
27:03
SM: All right, you are ready for some questions?
27:05
PS: I was going to ask you if you did not have fun in the bookstore. The book I wrote years ago, I guess cool. Everybody says Freedom was not there.
27:16
SM: That was not there. And I think you mentioned ̶
27:19
PS: What about the storytelling book?
27:21
SM: Oh, I have that too. Yes. But I brought that with me, but I forgot to have you sign it. That is a very good book.
27:31
PS: You should know that WW. Norton will have out in November, a book called Where Have all the Flowers Gone? And the first edition came out fifteen years ago, sixteen years ago but it was so full of mistakes I told the [saying out], do not reprint it, do not reprint it. It took me thirteen years to get the job done. It finally went to press and now has a new publisher rather, co-publisher and called Where Have All the Flowers Gone: A Musical Autobiography.
28:18
SM: Very nice. Well what that will come out in November?
28:23
PS: Yes.
28:24
SM: I will definitely have to get a copy and send it to you, and have it signed.
28:30
PS: Okay.
28:32
SM: All right. Well, here is my first question. When you think of the boomer generation now that is the young people born after the war ̶ and the people that actually came to a lot of your concerts in the (19)60s and (19)70s. What does the (19)60s and the youth of the (19)70s mean to you?
28:53
PS: Well, it was a significant breakthrough in the control of the country by the powers who have the money. Probably know that not just lefties but both sorts of quite well-known respectable people knew that shortly after the Civil War, corporations and business controlled the country and controlled the media, newspapers and so on. It is true that there were opposition from those who were aware of this, but they were small and weak. I mean you have the farmers movement and the union movement of the late nineteenth century and you had the socialist movement and the communist movement. 99 percent of the people got their news from the newspapers and places like the radio and TV. And the exceptions were rare. Well for example, songs that were on the radio during the 1930s during the Depression were all love song. And there was never a song which even mentioned the idea there was a depression on. Herbert Hoover said to Rudy Vallee a popular singer, Mr. Vallee, if you can sing a song that will make the American people forget the depression, I will give you a medal. The exception proves the rule. On Broadway, there was a very popular musical show. And the hit song of the show was called "Brother Can you Spare a Dime." Because in the show there was a breadline and the guy say he spent my life building the country. Now, I am out of a job. Brother, buddy, can you spare a dime? Did you ever hear the song?
31:20
SM: Oh, yes.
31:22
PS: Then you know it, it is a famous song. The exception to the rule. The rule was a Bing Crosby's song “Wrap Your Troubles in Dreams (And Dream Your Troubles Away)". I knew because [I was in my period], so I played in this cool jazz band and it was one stupid song after another ̶ well we were clever and sometimes had a good tune. But it was all forget your troubles. You cannot do anything about your trouble so anything you can do is forget. So, let me give you a sample of the opposite opinion. I always thought that Rutherford B. Hayes, who was president after General Grant was the worst president we ever had because he withdrew federal troops from the South. That was the end of reconstruction. Up until then, blacks, ex-slaves had been able to vote, and they sent several people to Congress, one became a senator, iron rebels. After troops were withdrawn from the south, the Ku Klux Klan took over the south. Rutherford B Hayes actually was not a bad president because he was forced into this. The deal was made behind his back. But he was a very honest president. And after he only told Republicans he only be willing to run a one term. He loved his wife and family. And this one is subject to that pressure for more than four years. Well, eight years after he was president, the Supreme Court handed down a decision saying there was no capital punishment for corporations. Before that states could hand out a charter to a corporation. And if they did not like what they were doing, they can take it away or not after 1888 find a corporation if they do something illegal, but you could not take away their charter. And Hayes says, face it. We no longer have a government, of the people by the people for the people. As Lincoln said in the Gettysburg Address, we have a government of corporations by corporations. for corporations. Way back then he said it. Then President Theodore Roosevelt said in 1906 ̶ behind the ostensible government of our country with there is a secret government, which shows no allegiance to the people; to destroy this secret government should be the chief task of responsible statesmanship. And he has, you know, tried with the antitrust laws and the income tax. But then he was voted out. Woodrow Wilson came in however, Woodrow Wilson before he left office said, I am filled with unhappiness. So, let me read you exactly what he said about it. Here is Woodrow Wilson around 1989, I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. The great industrial nation is controlled by a system of credit or a system of credit is concentrated the growth of the nation Therefore, all our activities are in the hands of the few men. We have come to be one of the worst rules, one of the most completely controlled and dominated government in the civilized world. No longer government, by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction, the vote of the majority, but a government of the government by the opinion and duress of a small group, of dominant men which under administration the Federal Reserve was created. So, and you know, probably Franklin Roosevelt said we have economic royalists in our country. In other words, not just the lefties said we should get rid of the rich people. Some rich people are extraordinary. You know, George Soros is one and John D. Rockefeller, Jr. ended up giving away most money, which is probably less.
36:41
SM: So, when you look at the ̶ comparing this history and you mentioned Rutherford B. Hayes, at least he had the integrity to serve one term, even though he may not have been the greatest president in the world. But when you look at the leaders that were in charge of our government when the boomers were young, and continuing through today, you are looking at people like Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and obviously, Bush again. These are the people that have ̶ when you look at the leaders that the boomers have had lived through, what are your thoughts on them?
37:23
PS: Well, life is compromises. And maybe one of the things you learn about politics is the compromises necessary. One of the mistakes often people think, oh, we just get rid of those rich people, and everything will be hunky dory, and they have not learned how to compromise. I think one of the most important things about, if you read the book about Lincoln called Team of Rivals ̶
38:01
SM: Yes, I have Doris Kearns Goodwin,
38:03
PS: A very, very important book. And I rather suspect that Barack Obama has read it too,
38:11
SM: Yes, he has.
38:14
PS: But the boomers made the mistake of thinking, we will get the young people in charge and everything will be hunky dory. I remember arguing with Jerry Rubin. You got to work with the old people as well as the young people. That is one of the lessons in the civil rights movement. Yes, the middle age people, people in their (19)30s and forty were cautious. But their kids and their grandparents were the ones who carried through Dr. King's great change. Civil Rights, evolution if you want to call it, a peaceful revolution. My own life, my own way of thinking was turned around by King. My best song has been written about him, my best new song. Have you heard, "Take it From Dr. King"?
39:12
SM: I do not believe I have.
39:14
PS: I wrote it right after the Twin Towers were bombed.
39:18
PS: No, I have not.
39:23
SM: It is the last chapter in my new book, “Take it from Dr. King”. And so, I argue with young people who think that world change is going to be done by one group, if I think it was the mistake of Marx, thinking that the working class would be the only group that would make change. I think there was a collective thought back then, and I think some of the boomers still have it even as they approach old age, because they are leaving middle age of the early boomers, and that is that they were the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world bring peace, love, end conflict. And you know, and create kind of a new world order, which I do not know really has happened. But that is, your thoughts on that attitude that used to be very prevalent in the 1960s and some of them still have it today as they are approaching, as they reach sixty.
40:40
PS: Oh, yes, I get letters from people in their (19)60s thanking me for coming in and singing at their college back in the 1950s. I went from college to college to college during the late 1950s. I started in Oberlin in 1953. Went to Antioch but by 1958/ (19)59, I was going to all sorts of certain colleges and by 1960, I was going to the state universities. And it was the most important job I ever did in my life. I could have kicked the bucket in 1961. And my job was done. A raft of young songwriters came along, who could sing better than I did and make up better songs. They took over people like Bob Dylan and Bill Oaks and Buffy St. Marie and Joni Mitchell. And now there is not dozens of them. They are literally hundreds if not thousands.
41:51
SM: When you look at the ̶ explain a little bit more what it was like going to college campuses in the 1960s. I recently saw on television and I think you may remember that you went to Great Valley High School near outside Philadelphia. Do you remember that?
42:12
PS: No, I do not.
42:12
SM: Well, it was, it actually was on there ̶ it was quite a few years ago and they had it on their little TV station of your visit there once. What was it your feeling of going from campus to campus in the 1960s and even into the 1970s. Did you feel ̶
42:35
PS: I really delighted in it even though occasionally there were a bomb threat and but I'd sing a song and there would be a loud boom in the middle of the song because I said something they disagreed with and then the guy who made a boo was thunderstruck because at the end of the song, it was a thunder of loud cheers and the guy who booed said what is happening to our country with traitorous pops like that are, actually, given [out] from the stage.
43:13
SM: Is there any way ̶ you mentioned that you have done thousands of concerts. But obviously there may have been one or two that stood out. Is there one or two concerts that you did on a college campus that stood out and what year was that?
43:34
PS: I told you, my voice started to give out. I wanted to have a concert where the audience could be heard so I had it especially miced with microphones over the audience. And if you go to Smithsonian Folkways Records, ask for a CD called Sing Along. It was made at Harvard College. Harvard had a medium sized auditorium with thousand seats, a nineteenth century wooden auditorium, Sanders Theater. Had wonderful acoustics. I had microphones placed all through the audience. So, my microphone might be tuned up during the first when I was singing the first but when it came to the chorus, they tuned me down and tuned up one from the audience around we did when we mastered it, right. We had sixteen microphones. Get that record and I will and show you what I did back then.
44:51
SM: When you ̶ when did the (19)60s begin in your opinion and when did it end?
44:59
PS: Oh, I do not know it depends on your definition of the (19)60s, would not be fine. What happened at Oberlin ̶ some kids I have talked to in high school or grade school in Manhattan now they are in Oberlin, and they wrote me a letter that we have got the Oberlin folk song club, and we have got the basement of the art school such and such a night. Can you take a bus out here, we will pass the hat, and I am sure we will make the bus fare and we did? We got about $200 a little over two-hundred people. Well, the next year I went back to Oberlin and sang for five hundred in a chapel. And the next year I came back and sang for thousand, in the large auditorium, which took the whole college could get to and I used to go back there every year until I got too busy and could only go back there occasionally.
46:05
SM: What were the qualities you most admired in the young people of the world? They grew up in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s. And how are they different than any of the other youth of the other eras that you performed in?
46:22
PS: Well, they joined in. So, I did well. They stood up to the - they stood up to the authorities if they tried [yes]. Allegheny college ̶ I sang there once, and the students want me to come back.
46:54
SM: Oh, wow.
46:55
PS: They tried to stop it ̶ he said, I am trying to raise money for this college. Seeger coming here makes it very difficult for me to raise money. So, I suggest that you not have Seeger come back. And the students put up a big fight, they said it was academic freedom. What do you mean that we cannot have him come back? We want him to come back. And finally, the president of the college had to back down. And he said, the alumni I am sorry, it is academic freedom. I could not stop them. I tried.
47:33
SM: What year was that?
47:35
PS: That was around 1958.
47:38
SM: Oh, my gosh. I you know, that still continues today in higher education. Oh, my God.
47:47
PS: Goes on all the time. President Gideon, Brooklyn College said that I would not sing on the campus as long as he was president. And I did not. When he finally retired in 1965. I went to sing on the campus, the very next year (19)66.
48:09
SM: If there is one event that you feel personally ̶ now you are ninety years old and I really admire you for your longevity and your continuation of giving back and influencing young people to do good. And the question ̶ which is, you know, sometimes so many young people are afraid of that to do that or to do that for there might be a price one has to pay. But who, what if there is a specific event that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s, or even when ̶ what had the greatest effect on the boomer generation, what do you think that might be?
48:51
PS: It might be the fact that I did not get on TV. I broke the blacklist one or two times when I had written this song called Waist Deep in the Big Muddy ̶ getting out of Vietnam. The song did not mention Vietnam. It did not mention president Johnson by name, but everybody knew what I was singing about. I told in the allegory–
“It was back in 1942, I was a member of the good platoon. We were on maneuvers in Louisiana. One night by the light of the moon. The captain told us to ford the river. That was how it all began. We were knee deep in the Big Muddy, But the big fool said to push on. The song went on until the captain is drowned. Well, I am not going to point any moral, I will leave that for yourself. Maybe you are still walking, you are still talking You would like to keep your health. But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on; we were waist deep in the Big Muddy and the big fool says to push on.” It was censured out of the show. And I was on the Smothers Brothers program. They took their complaint to the to the press, paper printed media. The CBS is censuring up the best jokes and censuring Seegar's best song and finally after three months CBS said it okay you sing it and this time, I sang it for seven million people.
50:43
SM: I saw that, I watched the Smothers Brothers and what was your thought on not just what they did toward you in on television but what they were trying to do to the Smothers Brothers, the show.
50:58
PS: Well I think what they learned and what I learned is you do not have to reach millions of people if you could reach some. And I am completely convinced that if there is a human race here in hundred years, it will be because of millions of comparatively small things. I really mean this. You know, the great praise the great Du Bois, the biologist, said think globally, act locally. You have heard that yes. And Schumacher said small is beautiful. Margaret Mead said never doubt that a few committed individuals can save the world and the fact that the only thing that ever has. Who knows, I say God only knows but I put it this way. This is my mantra. The agricultural revolution took thousands of years - the industrial revolution took of hundreds of years. The information revolution is only taking decades. Use it, use the brains God gave us. Who knows, what miracles may happen in the next few years.
52:21
SM: Very good point that two different words I want to say, the word healing and the word trust are often linked to the boomer generation, the era of the seventy-four million that were born after (19)46 up to (19)64 - issues of trust because the lack of trust in the leaders that they saw lie to them in many respects and number two, healing because of all the unbelievable divisions that were in America back in the in the (19)60s ̶ some people said that we might even have another second Civil War. Your thoughts on the influence this may have had on this entire generation and how do you think they are dealing with it today?
53:10
PS: [This man you are talking about thing?]
53:12
SM: No, I am talking about the boomer generation, the whole issues of trust and healing within this group because of the ̶
53:20
PS: My own feeling is that often radicals are overconfident that they that they know all the answers, whether they are anarchists or socialists or communists or whatever they call themselves. And I think the big mistake in the in the communist movement was mistaking Lenin. He said, in 1905, we lost the revolution of 1905 because we were not disciplined. If we are disciplined, just like an army is disciplined we will win the next revolution, and it is true, they took power in 1917. But they believed in discipline. I often quote, a German communist Rosa Luxemburg, who said, wrote a letter: Dear Comrade Lenin, I read that you have censorship of the press, and you restrict the right of people to freely meet and discuss their opinions. Do not you realize that in a few years, all the decisions in your country will be made by a few elites? The masses will only be called in to dutifully applaud your decision. And I think if it had not been Stalin, it would have been somebody else. But the thing which has saved our country, generation after generation is that extraordinary first amendment constitution.
55:00
SM: The presidents that had the greatest influence on the boomer generation are John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, and probably Ronald Reagan. How would you ̶ what are your thoughts on them?
55:14
PS: Well, of course, they are very different. But all of them made compromises. As I say, sometimes the compromise worked. Sometimes they did not. I think probably president, ex-President Carter probably regret some of the compromises that he made.
55:42
SM: Okay, final part of the interview is just basically responding to a couple terms, words. You do not have to give very long responses, but just your overall gut level feeling when you hear these words or terms. Watergate.
56:02
PS: You make a compromise you can regret.
56:07
SM: Kent State and Jackson State.
56:13
PS: I am increasingly convinced that the world will not survive unless we learn from Dr. King.
56:27
SM: Go in greater detail there.
56:30
PS: Well, way back at the beginning ̶ he said various times in his life, the most important speech he ever made was the speech he made at the very beginning of the bus boycott. He said, we will win this boycott if we are nonviolent. Non-violence is it is ascending spiral, with violence you can murder the hater, you just increase hate. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, it takes light to do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, it takes love and I think I would say respect.
57:16
SM: So basically, Kent state was the result of certainly a lack of communication, Jackson State too with the loss of student lives. But what was those were monumental events for that particular era because you saw violence. A couple of other things, the Vietnam Memorial, what does that mean to you?
57:39
PS: For violence, you might consider this, according to anthropologist and I think they right, all of us are descended from good killers. The ones who were not good killers did not have the descendants. This was for hundreds of thousands of years. And then in more recent times, we learn how to use words, we use learn how to use the arts. I compare a song to a basketball backboard, and it bounces back new meanings when life bounces new experiences against it. So, the song John Henry might have simply been about a strong man. Later I realized there is a tragedy to it, even humor to it at times. And so, a song can mean different things at different times. And the arts, all of them are important including the art of cooking. And Tommy Sands, the great Irish singer brought back Ireland together by song fest when he was a child. You should read his book. Tommy Sands, S-A-N-D-S. The book is called Song Maker. Came out about five years ago, four years ago. And when he was a child, he came from a family where their idea of a good time was to get some beer and invite the neighbors and sing all night long. And they saved up their money, they could get a barrel of beer. And now they invite the neighbors in, and it did not bother them that their neighbors are mostly Protestant. They were Catholic, but they just sing all night long. So, Tommy, some six years ago, rented some theaters and in different parts of Ireland he invited the leaders of the south and the leaders of the north in for a song fest. And he let them know they are both going to be there. But he says, “It is not politics at all.” We were just going to sing all night. No politics, no politics, just singing. And they sing all night, not just one or two hours, but three or four or five hours. And then, at the end of the day they started talking with each other, they still will not shake hands. They cannot that we cannot do it, but they are no longer trying to shoot at each other. Tommy Sand has brought an island together with singing.
58:12
SM: I got to get that book too. You are very well read.
60:46
PS: I am a readaholic.
60:47
SM: Well so am I, I got about ten thousand books, I am constantly reading. But you are able to really grasp the meaning of all the books and ideas that you have read and be able to put some dots to them and linkage. A couple other things ̶
61:05
PS: Two recent books, have you read the book, Blessed Unrest by Paul Hawkin?
61:13
SM: No, I have not.
61:14
PS: Hawken is a small businessman, but he is an [economist]. He is spoken at like thousand places in the last fifteen years. And the words blessed unrest was spoken by Martha Graham to the young dancer Agnes de Mille ̶ and all of us artists are filled with a blessed unrest, trying to reach the infinite and of course never making it but never giving up trying. Paul says, how is it that the largest movement in the world is taking place and nobody predicted it ̶ what is the largest movement ̶ all the little things that are going on in small business, the smallest nonprofit groups, small religious groups, all artistic groups, all sorts of small things, often locally, in my hometown of Beacon, fourteen thousand people. There was a race riot thirty years ago and some women started a block party they call the "Spirit of Beacon Day. It is always the last Sunday in September. And they send invitations to every church, black churches, white churches, synagogues, Muslim mosque, and in recent years, a Hindu temple, the Latino Pentecostal, and every service club, the Lions, the Kiwanis, the American Legion and so on. And everybody has a table on the sidewalk. Usually a piece of paper telling when they meet what they believe in. And they often have food and serving ̶ this drink it is only fifty cents. This sandwich is only $1. People walk up and down Main Street, sampling the food from different places and listening to different kinds of music, hear music. It is a big group from a few hundred to thousand to two thousand to four thousand. Now it is up to ten thousand in a town of fourteen thousand. Of course, there are probably still four thousand saying, they are going to hell.
63:48
SM: Well, I just might trip up to Beacon to see you that day and see all the people that the swim across the Hudson.
63:54
PS: If you ever come to Beacon do come on the last Sunday in September, it rains. It is the first Sunday in October.
64:03
SM: Well, maybe I will. Just in my one trip to Beacon I fell in love with the place. I fell in love with the people because of the fact ̶ and I love the cause of saving the Hudson. Just seeing that ̶ it just ̶ may
be that is a very positive that in things that you have done, and maybe it is the smaller things that we do not often recognize that are making great impacts. And maybe the boomers are a lot of them are involved in this. A couple of terms, the Vietnam Memorial. Jan Scruggs wrote the book, To Heal a Nation. What do you think the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has done? Is just basically healed our veterans or has it done anything with respect to healing our nation from the war?
64:48
PS: No one thing could change everything, but I think it changed a lot of people's opinion.
64:55
SM: All right, and also your thoughts on the Students for Democratic Society, and the Weathermen and Vietnam Veterans Against the War ̶ those very big anti-war groups?
65:09
PS: I, myself, [aware of bigness] even big organizations. I would like to deal off small organizations. I was against that big thing in Madison Square Garden. I have to admit, they handled it very well. They had very good sound, and very good lights and so on. And a wonderful singing audience. But when they put it on the air, August 1, they did not show you how beautifully the audience was singing. All you could hear was the soloist.
65:46
SM: That was your ninetieth birthday. Yeah, well, that was an honor. That must be. A couple more people here just to respond to ̶ these are personalities now. Tom Hayden, just quick thoughts on each of these individuals.
66:02
PS: Way back thirty years ago, nice guy.
66:07
SM: How about Jane Fonda?
66:10
PS: Likewise, I met her even before then when she was hardly out of her teens, briefly married to some guy in Russia.
66:20
SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, so the Yippies.
66:24
PS: Well, I met Abbie, late in life. And we got along very well. In the beginning, I was arguing with both Abbie and Jerry, that the things you are going to do everything with young people. I think you got to work with all ages. I work with little kids now if you are in my hometown.
66:46
SM: You know what is interesting, Pete, is that it was Jerry Rubin that coined the phrase do not trust anyone over thirty. Did you ever talk to him about that? Because what is interesting, when I read his book, Do It ̶ he was twenty-nine. He was one year away from being thirty. So, I never understood that.
67:05
PS: Well, I laugh at that, you have to laugh at slogans.
67:12
SM: Timothy Leary.
67:14
PS: I never knew him. I never met him.
67:17
SM: What you think of him?
67:18
PS: Well, I mistrust him, trying to solve your problem with anything you eat or drink.
67:27
SM: What did you think of the Black Panther leaders like Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group.
67:37
PS: They were very brave, but I believe in the slogan, it was an anarchist I knew, who he said, wait a minute, I am trying to remember- love, truth, bravery. You need all three. Oh, no, of course my memory is going I cannot remember this anarchist. He was a wonderful guy. This is the way back in the 1950s, he said this, "Love, truth bravery.” Love alone is sentimentality. As in the average churchgoer. True alone is, oh gosh I have it written down ̶
68:37
SM: Yes. Okay. Couple other names here ̶
68:42
PS: Oh, wait a minute, all three. Okay when it comes to bravery, bravery is foolhardiness. As in the average soldier. Need all three. And so, I think this was the problem that Malcolm had and the others. Bravery is not enough. You need the truth and you need love.
68:49
SM: How about your overall comment on Richard Nixon.
69:21
PS: I cannot remember.
69:31
SM: Richard Nixon?
69:32
PS: I thought he did not have truth.
69:35
SM: How about Spiro Agnew?
69:39
PS: I guess there he lacked truth and love.
69:43
SM: Eugene McCarthy?
69:46
PS: Well, I think the state he made was in again, not working broadly that you might not see, I would put in addition to truth, love truth brave, humor. Humor is one of the most important qualities the world needs. We may be saved by humor.
70:15
SM: Well, that brings me to the Kennedy brothers, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy and certainly, John Kennedy, your thoughts on those two brothers?
70:26
PS: Well, it was an extraordinary family, an extraordinary mother. The mother had nine children. And she lived into her nineties.
70:40
SM: And she lost her ̶
70:41
PS: Her husband's infidelity. Put up with all her various children's different ways of working ̶
70:55
SM: How about George McGovern?
70:59
PS: George, wait a minute ̶
71:02
SM: George McGovern. He ran for president in 1972. Senator from South Dakota.
71:12
PS: Oh, I thought I spoke about him earlier.
71:16
SM: That was Eugene McCarthy.
71:23
PS: You need all these different things. Of course, you need instant recount voting. Know what that is? Clinton turned down money with air. I was shouting obscenities ̶ that was his greatest chance to introduce America to proportional representation. I went to a school where we voted for the student council by proportional representation. We voted our first choice, second choice and third choice. And we had a good student council. And if Lani Guinier been kept in the cabinet, she would have brought this idea to the American people. Most people do not even know what IRB stands for, or proportional representation. But when I did not meet Clinton once about four years ago, he was at a meeting, and I tried to speak about it and he just clammed up.
72:39
SM: How about Lyndon Johnson?
72:43
PS: Well, he did one, some very good things. Voting right act. Voting right act, 1965 I guess it was.
72:58
SM: How about Robert McNamara?
73:02
PS: I have not read his book. I would like to say ̶
73:05
SM: Well, he wrote, he has actually written five, but his last two would be the one you would want to read. He, the first one was ̶
73:12
PS: I am willing to bet that his children got him to write the last one because they said, Dad, you cannot go to your grave without telling what you know.
73:24
SM: Right?
73:25
PS: Finally came out.
73:27
SM: In Retrospect came out in (19)95. It is called In Retrospect. And then he wrote another book, that followed and those were his last two. So, those were good reads. Just a couple more names and we are done. The women, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, the women leaders who kind of led the women's movement Still there. Hello? Pete you still there?
PS: Well I think I have told you more than you need to know.
SM: Okay. All right. Well, I am going to conclude with this. I will not ask any more names. But what is your final thoughts on the boomer generation, those young people that you have performed before? If you were, if the history books fifty years or hundred years from now or writing about them, giving an analysis, what do you think they will say, and your final thoughts if you were writing that book?
74:59
PS: Writing what book?
75:00
SM: Well, if you were writing a book hundred years from now on the boomer generation, what would be your final thoughts on them? What do you think history is going to say about them?
75:09
PS: I do not know enough about it to write. To you, I will say, I think they made the same mistake that many of us make when we have some success. Oh, we now know, we have the key to the future. Because we have won some successes. I mistrust the word t-h-e. I really do. The solution, the origin, the destiny. So, I would say that they made some made up the wonderful things done, but they made similar mistakes too many others.
75:57
SM: Do you think they had been a good influence on their kids and grandkids?
76:02
PS: My guess is yes, probably most of them. I get letters from now that I have got too much publicity. My own problem now I got too much publicity and life is very difficult, mail comes in by the bushel. And I have to add to it form letters.
76:22
SM: Okay, I want to thank you very much for talking to me today and it was an honor to meet you at Beacon a couple of weeks back. And all I can say ̶ I will be sending you a waiver form.
76:34
PS: I cannot remember when you were here ̶
76:36
SM: I was here when the swim across the Hudson. And I interviewed you on the bank but then they kind of pulled you away to perform. And so, thank you very much. I will send a waiver form and certainly the transcript sometime in the next three months. And then I will get back to you for final okay. And also, I think I owe you a lunch.
77:03
PS: Oh no.
77:04
SM: Pete you have been you have been more than gracious. And of course, your sister is unbelievable as well because I interviewed her. So, you have a great day.
77:14
PS: Oh, my sister was born in (19)35. So, she is ten years older than the boomers.
77:27
SM: Yes but she still ̶ she came to our campus and she is the one that called you originally after I interviewed her on the phone to say talk to Steve. So, I really appreciate this Pete.
77:40
PS: Okay your first name is Steve?
77:43
SM: McKiernan M-c- K-i-e-r-n-a-n. And it was my grandfather was the minister of the first Methodist Church in Peekskill, New York. He died in 1956. He was only sixty-one years old. He had a bad heart, but he was the minister there from 1936 to 1954. And of course, I wish I could ask him about that Paul Robeson incident because, you know, I was too young he died when I was only eight years old. So, I you know, I just remember going to the church and of course the church burned down on - an arsonist burned the church down after my grandfather had passed away. So now they got this ugly looking, one level church in Peekskill, but first Methodist Church, but ̶
78:33
PS: Did they burn it down because of his preaching?
78:39
SM: Oh, no, he had died and, but it was where my ̶ it was a beautiful church. And ̶
78:45
PS: Why did they burn it down?
78:47
SM: Well, they wanted a new church. And I remember this whole issue after my dad, my grandfather is at ̶
78:57
PS: That is kind of a dangerous way to get rid of a church.
79:00
SM: Yeah, well, my dad was very upset. In fact, my dad cried and drove into Peekskill after it burned down because they would just, they knew, they never caught the person who did it. But my dad grew up there, you know, as a young guy and he went off to World War II and everything. But you know, but the Paul Robeson in the news were involved in that incident as well. So, I would have liked to have talked to him about that. If I am in ̶
79:30
PS: September fourth, sixtieth anniversary, the big Paramount Theater will have a program. I will be singing a couple songs, saying a few words on September 4,
79:47
SM: At what theater?
79:49
PS: At the Paramount Theatre in Peekskill.
79:53
SM: I am going to try to go, is that an evening event?
79:56
PS: It may be an all-day event, for all I know.
79:58
SM: Oh, wow.
80:00
PS: Go take a photo.
80:04
SM: Yeah, I have definitely had ̶ of course, grandfather's at Ferncliff. Along was his wife and kids. So, all right, Pete. Well, thank you very much. You have a great day and carry on.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Pete Seeger
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Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Folk singers; Human rights workers; Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014--Interviews
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Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition to being a folk singer, he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded a 78 RPM album called <em>Songs of the Lincoln Battalion</em> with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2009-07-25 ; 2009-08-12
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.112
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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80:25
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-05-19
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ellen Schrecker
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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217:19
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation, College in the 1960s; Vietnam War; Anti-war movement; Thomas Reeves; McCarthyism; Civil rights movement; Activism"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation, College in the 1960s; Vietnam War; Anti-war movement; Thomas Reeves; McCarthyism; Civil rights movement; Activism</span>
Subject LCSH
College teachers; United States—History—1945-1953; Tamiment Library; Yeshiva University; Schrecker, Ellen--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ellen Schrecker
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 19 May 2011
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Testing, one, two, test. All right. I will be checking it. All set?
ES (00:00:10):
Sure.
SM (00:00:10):
Okay. First off, thanks again for being a part of the project. I have been-been bound in this project now for a long time, starting part-time in (19)96, and kind of finishing up full-time now. And I left the university to work on this for the last two years. One of the first questions I would like to ask is... to each of my interviewees is, how did you become who you are? And now, you are a great historian. There are certain issues that you would like to write about, not only as a scholar, but as a teacher. And what was your growing up years like? How did you become who you are? Your parents? Your high school years, or...
ES (00:00:51):
Well, I grew up, actually, outside Philadelphia. My parents were during the 1950s, during the McCarthy period. My parents were liberal democrats. They were not left-wingers. They were not in the party or anything like that. I have often been accused of being a red diaper baby, but I am not. And as a teenager, I can recall watching Army- McCarthy hearings, all that kind of stuff, knowing that this was bad stuff, but not knowing very much about it at all.
SM (00:01:39):
Right.
ES (00:01:39):
In fact, you will probably be interested in this one. The guy who was on the board of trustees at Jefferson Medical School was my grandfather's law partner.
SM (00:01:54):
Oh, really?
ES (00:01:55):
Who...
SM (00:01:55):
Oh my God.
ES (00:01:55):
And he was the guy... He was the point guy for dismissing all of the three faculty members.
SM (00:02:03):
Oh my. What a small world.
ES (00:02:04):
Yes. It was a small world. And one of the things I knew as a young person was that my mother despised this man, but I never knew why, never had any idea. And then, many years later, when I started doing research [inaudible] academic community, I came across this guy and realized that... and understood why my mother was so upset. And it was very clear to me that the leadership at the administration and board trustees... that Jefferson had selected this man to handle all of this because he was Jewish. And the people that were being fired were also Jewish, very much like having Roy Cohen...
SM (00:02:59):
Oh, yes.
ES (00:02:59):
... prosecute the Rosenbergs. Anyhow... So, I grew up not knowing very much. I mean, another... Can you excuse me?
SM (00:03:11):
Okay.
ES (00:03:11):
Yeah. The other thing that I learned when I was doing, actually, my other book on McCarthyism... I did not find this...
SM (00:03:26):
Yeah, I have that here too.
ES (00:03:26):
... until somewhat later...
SM (00:03:28):
Yeah.
ES (00:03:28):
... was that my sixth-grade teacher had been fired.
SM (00:03:35):
Oh, wow.
ES (00:03:37):
... for having been in a congress. He had never come up before a committee, but the FBI had fingered him. And at that point, the school... It was not a public school. It was a private school that was being run by Temple University. And they just got rid of him.
SM (00:03:59):
As a young person though, you are just seeing these things for the first time. Your parents are one thing, but you were a young person, a child, or a teenager.
ES (00:04:12):
Yeah.
SM (00:04:13):
What were you thinking about America? And this is course post World War II America.
ES (00:04:19):
Yeah. Yeah. You know. I grew up in this sort of liberal ADA, Americans for Democratic Action, sort of... My family was in favor of Stevenson when I... My mother worked for the Democratic Party in what was a Republican suburb at that time. And the rumor was always that you had to vote Republican in order to get your garbage collected, which was not true. But anyhow... So, I grew up with a fairly, what would you say, liberal set of values, which I think I still retain.
SM (00:05:12):
Where did you go to high school?
ES (00:05:15):
I went to Chelnum High School
SM (00:05:17):
Outside Philly?
ES (00:05:18):
Outside Philadelphia.
SM (00:05:19):
Golly. I know... Colleen McHugh... It is a small world again. Colleen McHugh was the president of our Contemporary Issues Committee. She is a senior. She is in Scotland right now, is from that high school.
ES (00:05:31):
Good.
SM (00:05:32):
Colleen McHugh.
ES (00:05:33):
Sure. We had all kinds of people who went there. Benjamin Netanyahu went there after my time. Reggie Jackson went there.
SM (00:05:44):
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
ES (00:05:48):
And it was a big public high school with a wide variety of kids. It was fine. And then, I went to Radcliffe. That is where I got my undergraduate. And I stayed to get my PhD at Harvard. And I was in European diplomatic history. I got my PhD in European diplomatic history. I wrote my thesis on "The French debt to the United States after the First World War". It was really boring. I did not enjoy it. And I sort of did not want to go on in that field. And so, this is about the 19... early 1970s. I finished my degree. I really did not know what I wanted to do. I was married. I had two children. We were living in Cambridge at the time. My then husband was teaching Chinese history at Brandeis. And I got a job teaching freshman composition at Harvard. The way it worked was you did not have to be in English, but you had to be a good writer. And they assumed somehow it would rub off on the students. And you could teach your course as a kind of mini course, as almost a little seminar, as long as you assigned a lot of writing and worked on the writing. And so, I decided I would teach a course on the 1950s because I had grown up then and I was curious. So, I started teaching this course. This is the mid-(19)70s. And I discovered that there was no good book on McCarthyism that I could assign my students, nothing, sick, no scholarship, no nothing. And so, after about a year of this, I decided, well, I did not know what I wanted to do, but I was really interested in McCarthyism. And I would write a book about it. And I had already written a Chinese book, of all things...
SM (00:08:31):
Oh my God.
ES (00:08:34):
... which is another piece of my life. And I had a literary agent. And I got a fellowship from the Radcliffe, what was then called the Funding Institute at Radcliffe, for a year, to work on this project on McCarthyism. And after a little while, it became very clear to me that this was a big project and that there was another person who was writing a general book on McCarthyism. And I was sort of advised by a whole bunch of people to narrow down my topic. So, I decided. I made a choice. I realized I could either look at McCarthyism in one city or I could take an occupational group. And I decided, since I was an academic, I might as well look at the academy. And so, that is how I got into writing my first book about McCarthyism.
SM (00:09:45):
I think, if I remember correctly, there is only two books that I can recall, because I have them, are the Buckley book that you wrote on McCarthyism that was out. And then, there was one on Richard Reeves or Richard...
ES (00:10:02):
Yeah, which was Joe McCarthy himself.
SM (00:10:04):
Yeah. Big, big book. Yeah. I think Richard Veer wrote a book of...
ES (00:10:06):
He wrote a book in about 1956. And Reeves wrote a biography, and... Thomas Reeves, I think it was.
SM (00:10:15):
Thomas Reeves. Yeah, because... Right.
ES (00:10:19):
But there was not a general study. The general study that was being written at the time was by a guy named David Caute, C A U T E, who was a brit...
SM (00:10:29):
Oh yeah.
ES (00:10:30):
... who... Actually, I had been in a graduate seminar with him many years ago. And his book was... It is not bad, but it did not do what I did. And so, anyhow, I finished this book on McCarthyism and the university, mainly looking at dozens of archives of universities, interviewing a lot of people, and then decided that I would go back to my original project of looking at McCarthyism as a whole, because there still was not the kind of book that I thought should be written. And so... And by that time, I had moved to New York and had remarried, and was just... I had changed... I do not think you could do it these days. But in those days, I was able to switch from European history into American history. And at the time my McCarthy University's book came out, I was able to get a teaching job at Yeshiva in American history. And I began to work on the sort of general study of McCarthyism. I published. I do not know if you have seen this little book for classroom use.
SM (00:12:09):
No, I have not seen that.
ES (00:12:10):
Okay. Let me show you.
SM (00:12:19):
Do you feel that... What influence do you feel that McCarthyism period had on the boomer generation that was really in elementary school at the time, but subconsciously many kids were watching that on black and white TV? I know I was one of them. I did not quite understand it, but I saw that... Well, I think I have seen that, but I do not have it. Yeah. I have seen that.
ES (00:12:45):
Well, this is the one that... And in some ways, it is used. It is what people assign in their classes...
SM (00:12:55):
Oh, yes.
ES (00:12:56):
... because it is much smaller than this book.
SM (00:12:57):
Yes. Wow. There is the gentleman to his right that...
ES (00:13:04):
Yeah. And that was a lot of fun. That is just a bunch of documents with a sort of hundred-page overview.
SM (00:13:14):
Do you think that the McCarthyism had any effect on young boomers? Some I have interviewed say that they were too young, but others subconsciously were seeing this fear that was happening in America at the same time, the fear of speaking up, the fear of...
ES (00:13:34):
Yeah.
SM (00:13:35):
And they were cognizant of what was going on in the South too, if you were watching the news, about the Civil Rights movement and the courage of the Dr. Kings and others to stand up and speak.
ES (00:13:46):
Right. I mean, I think what happened was, certainly when I was growing up there, the left was completely marginalized. I mean, I just plain did not even know it existed. When I was at Radcliffe, there apparently was a socials club, but it was made up of what were called Red Diaper babies, people whose parents had been pretty much in the Communist Party. And people who were outside of that very small left-wing world did not even know it existed. And...
SM (00:14:33):
Kind of like the young Americans for Freedom in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The young Americans for Freedom were a conservative group that was formed by Buckley. But a lot of people, when they talk about the actors in (19)60s, they totally omit them or say very little about that.
ES (00:14:52):
Right. But I think this civil rights movement really made a huge difference because it is the moment at which there is a mass movement for social reform. And that changed how people thought about political action. Before that, I do not think there was very much going on.
SM (00:15:23):
So, you deep down inside... If people were young enough, especially the early boomers born, say, in (19)46, that were maybe six and seven years old when McCarthyism was really rampant... And he was popular, I guess, through (19)54 or whatever. He was well known to the news... that that had any effect on these as they grew older and they wanted to speak up, like so many did on... with all the movements that took place in the late (19)60s. And we are not going to be held back. We are going to speak our minds. And...
ES (00:16:00):
Well, I think what it... The impact was not so much what happened, but what did not happen. There is a missing generation of activists. There is a missing institutional connection to some kind of ongoing left-wing tradition. That was shattered by McCarthyism. And so, what you have in the (19)60s with many members of the new left is the sense that they have to begin all over again.
SM (00:16:42):
You were at two places, obviously, where there was activism. Harvard had a lot of activisms. I have interviewed a couple professors at Harvard Square and...
ES (00:16:50):
I was not there then. What happened was, during the height of the "(19)60s", my then husband was teaching at Princeton, which was not a particularly active community.
SM (00:17:03):
Right.
ES (00:17:05):
And I can recall go... as a faculty wife of all things, going to the organizing meeting of the Princeton chapter of the Students for Democratic Society with my husband and I think one or two other faculty members at which these faculty members told the students, "This is a student run organization. The faculty cannot do it for you. You have to do it." So, Princeton was not particularly active in that period.
SM (00:17:38):
Yeah. Well, Harvard Square is one of those historic moments. And did being around students though... When you were around your peers, how would you define them at the colleges when you were there, when you were working on that doctorate, when you were working on that Master's in undergrad?
ES (00:17:57):
Yeah. Well, for some weird reason, I had a very interesting group of sorts of gang of friends. A number of them were red diaper babies, parents were communists, very close friends. And we were... Well actually, I was politically active in the early 1960s, like around (19)62, (19)63, (19)64. I was very active in the Northern Support group for the student non-violent coordinators.
SM (00:18:46):
Oh, SNCs.
ES (00:18:48):
We were SNCs. I was very active in helping, especially the Freedom summer stuff in 1964. I was involved, although then something else happened and I could not remain involved. But then, when we moved to Princeton, which we did in 1965, I was again active in SNC. And it became... For a very short time before it sort of all dissolved, I think I was head of the Princeton Friends of SNC or something like that.
SM (00:19:19):
Oh, okay.
ES (00:19:21):
So, I was politically active, not... I did not go south...
SM (00:19:25):
Okay.
ES (00:19:27):
... mainly because I was married, and I thought wives should not go leave their husband.
SM (00:19:37):
And so many of the people that were in the Freedom Summer in (19)64... We all know about Berkeley and the free speech movement, and Mario Savio and people like that, Tom Hayden and so forth. I know this is a very broad question, but when you think of the boomer generation... Again, lot... I... Well, first off, I would like to know whether you like the term, number one, and whether your terms defining generations. Because I have had individuals like Todd Gitlin that said, if you mentioned the boomer generation one more time, this interview was over. Because he does not like these little compartmentalization’s of the greatest generation, the silent generation, the boomer generation, millennials, generation X, boomers. He does not like it. And I have had quite a few that do not like it. But then some say, "Well, we got to have something."
ES (00:20:37):
Yeah, it is convenient. I mean, I am a historian. It is convenient as long as you contextualize it and realize that you cannot put everybody in the slot. And you need to look at what was actually going on during that time and realize that there were always alternative voices.
SM (00:20:57):
Yeah, but when you... If someone... If... Say you were in high school and you were in a 11th grade class and somebody had the courage to ask a question, and that is "What's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of the boomer generation?" Well, how would you respond?
ES (00:21:19):
These were people who came of age in the 1960s. They are a demographic bulge, which is why they cut so much attention because there were so many more of them proportionally within the population. And these were people who were on American campuses at the time of... I do a lot or higher education. So, this is a period when there is enormous expansion of American higher education, an enormous push actually to get people to go to graduate school. And this is something that I talk about in my book about the lost soul, of the role of graduate students in a lot of these student movements as a kind of in between group. The other thing, which I did not talk about, but I always talk about when I am describing the political activity and social movement of the 1960s, is... I illustrate it by describing my apartment that I got when I was a second-year graduate student at Harvard. I do not know if you know Cambridge at all.
SM (00:22:53):
Yeah. I have been up there. I have interviewed... I have interviewed 11 people at Harvard's.
ES (00:22:58):
Well, my apartment was on Bank Street, which was about maybe five blocks from Harvard Square, which is very centrally located. It was very cheap. It was $65 a month. Now admittedly, I did not have central heating, but I had a kerosene heater and my landlord put in a better heater because he thought I might burn down the house with [inaudible]. And the bathroom left something to be desired like a sink. I had to brush my teeth in the kitchen. But other than that, it was fine. It was three rooms, neighborhood was safe even though it was pretty inexpensive. It was a student neighborhood. And I had a roommate. And what this meant, if my rent costs me, what, under $40 a month, it meant that there was not on the people of my generation the kind of economic pressures that are on people today.
SM (00:24:17):
To work, yeah.
ES (00:24:19):
To work. You could live... I had a fellowship from... that paid for everything. I did not have to teach. And you could live very, very cheaply. And that allowed people not only the sort of freedom at that moment to become politically active, but also everybody knew they could get a job. You could get a job without having a PhD. My husband was hired at Princeton without having finished his PhD. That was common. And so, nobody worried about their economic situation. I mean, people probably did, but it was not the way it is today. People were not graduating with huge debts. And that economic security, I think, allowed for much more political expression than you have today. I mean, I think that is really key. And it is not something that people talk about.
SM (00:25:34):
Some people have even gone to the extreme... As a follow-up to what you just said is that people who really have been around a while, and were activists historically, and have experienced what you experienced, but now see that there are some really good students who care, but they do not have the time to do things like they did when they were young, they feel it is almost as if there is a conspiracy out there to keep young people busy so they cannot take the time to protest, to challenge, to be an activist like in the past because they have no time. And one interesting point, when you study the millennial generation, which I... because I am in higher ed too. The millennials... In the Irving Howe book, Holland Strauss states that they are like the boomer generation with respect that they want to leave a legacy, but they want to leave a legacy after they are (19)40, whereas boomers wanted to change the world immediately. And a lot of it has to do with getting the degree, working, and not having the time, raising a family and so forth. I am not sure if all that is true, but the thing is, they... Today's young people to me, deeply care. They just do not have the time to be involved in fighting for a lot of things they care about. You raised a real good point there. This is kind of a follow-up too. And are there any characteristics that you feel define the generation? Any strengths or weaknesses that, of the boomers that you knew and lived with or taught...
ES (00:27:27):
Yeah, they are all somewhat younger than I am. I do not think I could characterize, make that comment.
SM (00:27:38):
70 million?
ES (00:27:39):
Yeah.
SM (00:27:39):
Yeah.
ES (00:27:40):
I do not think I could.
SM (00:27:42):
Because there are... One of the things here that... Is there... Today, the conservative... I will repeat that... I am going to read this part. How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation who blame many of the problems today on what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s; the attacks are around the sexual revolution, worries, the drug culture, inner spirituality as opposed to organized religion, the divorce rate, the beginning of the breakup of the American family, the divisiveness that was so strong back then, no respect for law and order, violence, no respect for authority, no lack... the lack of trust in leadership... Even some people have said the spending habits of the boomers, they were a materialistic generation. They spent, and that is one of the reasons why we are in the problems today. Individually, it is because the, I want it now and I am not going to wait for it. And then, of course, overall, the challenge to the status quo, the tax on corporate influence, and group think, and the concept of victimization, the welfare state mentality. These are all the things the conservatives attack the boomer generation... And it is particularly the counterculture from the (19)60s and (19)70s.
ES (00:29:16):
Well, a lot of this is not... I teach. This is the period I teach. And what you see, certainly with regard to say the sexual revolution, is it was not a revolution. It was an evolution, but it had been... Sexual morals were changing, had been changing since the early 20th century. You were not seeing a "revolution". What you were seeing was finally a sort of realization of what actually was happening. And I think the sort of cultural changes, again, were things that would have happened, whether there was some kind of "(19)60s" or not. These changes in how people related a sort of greater informality would have happened anyhow. And a lot of what conservatives’ attack, of course, is protest against things like the Vietnam War and white supremacy in the South, which were certainly not exactly the products of the boomer generation.
SM (00:30:46):
Oh yes, definitely. You already mentioned earlier that one of the great qualities or developments that happened during the time when boomers were young is the expansion of higher education and the increasing numbers of students who go to college as opposed to even in the (19)50s. There was something going on. We know about the GI Bill after World War II and many came back, but certainly with the influx of new young people coming in, certainly access. So, could you describe the state of higher education in America, just as a person who has studied it in the following periods? Because I am... We are looking at 65 years now. Boomers have been alive now 65 years, the oldest ones. And every single day, I hear that there are something like 13,500 people turning 65, or boomers, every day for the next God knows how many years. So, when you look at 1946 to 1960 in higher education, what comes to your mind?
ES (00:31:56):
Well, that is this period of really massive expansion and a democratization of higher ed... and a democratization of higher education. Really, before the Second World War, it was very much an elite phenomenon. After the Second World War, it becomes, essentially, the badge of middle-class status and you get an expansion, especially in the public sector, not just at flagship universities like the University of Michigan, but the creation of a much broader second tier of institutions. For example, I am looking at Pennsylvania, where I grew up, in the 1950s, there were all these state teachers’ colleges.
SM (00:32:54):
Oh, yes, Portland, that was the where I grew up, Portland State Teachers College.
ES (00:32:58):
Sure. They all begin to expand, they become part of bigger systems. So, you are getting more and more access to higher education from people who have very different backgrounds. It is no longer something that is, quote, unquote, "elite". Now, the higher education system is still very stratified and there are these elite institutions at the top, and it goes down to community colleges and stuff. But the access to some kind of higher education really just grew enormously. For people, like myself, who were in graduate school, and young faculty members, what they were experiencing was this incredible job market. I have been working, doing research, I did some for the most recent book and I am going to do more, on academic freedom in the 1960s faculty activism, not student activism.
SM (00:34:11):
Oh, wow.
ES (00:34:13):
I discovered a left-wing faculty group that saw itself as the faculty twin or the alumni movement of SDS, essentially.
SM (00:34:29):
You mentioned that briefly, that of the 25 at one school, 24 of them were let go.
ES (00:34:35):
Yeah-yeah.
SM (00:34:37):
I remember that.
ES (00:34:42):
Called the New University Conference. And they had this newsletter, and at one point, they were going to set up a job service, a job referral bank for their members. What they said was, "Come to us for the next job from which you would be fired." But the fact was, most of the people who did lose their jobs for political reasons during this period were able to find other academic jobs if they wanted them. Some people just dropped out. But it is because of this enormous expansion, again, the fact of much more economic security really enabled people to be more politically active.
SM (00:35:31):
When you look at that period than after Kennedy came into power 1961 to, say, 1980, when Ronald Reagan, how would you define that? There's so much... How would you define that higher education during that time?
ES (00:35:45):
Well, that is still the period of expansion. The moment at which the expansion stops, it is pretty clear. It is about (19)74, (19)75. The oil shock's the moment. It is a crisis in, I think we have to say, American world capitalism. That is the moment at which you begin to see cut backs in the amount of state funding of higher education, period. Where you begin to see a concerted attack on the quote, unquote, "liberal academy" from a bunch of conservatives who then begin to fund right wing foundations and writers and start what we see as, I think, a really major attack on what is considered the liberal academy.
SM (00:36:52):
That is really from late (19)70s through today, really?
ES (00:36:56):
Yes. Yeah.
SM (00:36:57):
Ronald Reagan played a key part in that because his attack-
ES (00:37:03):
He began it in California. He ran against Berkeley in 1966.
SM (00:37:07):
Yes. Yeah. That is unbelievable development and that he used the same package when he ran for President, too. Law and order, law and order and against the welfare state. Remember, those are the two things. You have written three books. Oh, you have written more than three books, but I am not making comment on this book because I did not know about this one. But the three books, the No Ivory Tower, the book on McCarthyism, and your most recent book on higher education the lost soul. In a few words, what was the basic premise of all three of those books? Secondly, when you look at the three major premises of these books, how did the main information that premise affect the Boomer generation?
ES (00:38:06):
Well, I guess the main thing I am concerned about is free speech, freedom of expression, intellectual freedom, the ability to express dissent about major political issues. I think that is what I have been looking at in one way or another in all of my work. At the moment, I am working on yet another book. It is a study of American political repression. Very general from, as we say, the Puritans to the Patriot Act. I am working with a political scientist who is a political theoretician. Because when I was working on all of these books, I had assumed that a political theorist had written something about political repression, seems to be a rather important subject. Yet it turns out there is very little, which was surprising. Anyhow, I have a colleague who is a political theorist at Brooklyn College, teaches CUNY, and he is interested in exactly the same things I am, so we are working on this together. But it is all about, essentially, the suppression of the dissent and looking at how it operates. Stuart, is there anything I can get you?
Stuart (00:39:47):
No, I am fine!
ES (00:39:47):
Okay.
SM (00:40:01):
Yeah. When we talk about freedom of speech, the first thing that always comes to my mind, and I do not think it is being taught very well in higher education today in graduate programs, is the influence that the Free Speech Movement had on the history of higher education, in my opinion. I went to Ohio State in the early (19)70s and we talked about it all the time. We even talk about legal aspects of when police can come on campus, when they cannot come on campus and everything. But what the one thing that always strikes me about the Free Speech Movement is people try to separate it, saying that it was the early to middle (19)60s as opposed to the other protests, when in reality, the precursor of what was to come. Secondly, Mario Savio, whether you like him or not, his words will forever... I have been on Berkeley many times. I took part-time courses there, too. The fact is that the thing that stands out in that whole movement was the fact that ideas, ideas is what the university is all about, not corporate control. So, a lot of the battles that took place during that (19)64, (19)65 period, and many of the battles in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s on even my campus at SUNY Binghamton, was that we wanted a campus of ideas and not departments and grants and fundraising and everything linked toward corporate control of what can happen on the university camps. What is upsetting to me today is it seems like we have forgotten everything about the Free Speech Movement.
ES (00:41:46):
Yeah.
SM (00:41:48):
We know its history but... I interviewed Arthur Chickering who wrote Education and Identity, and I also interviewed Alexander Astin, the great scholar in California. After each interview, I said, " What is your biggest disappointment as a person who have lived in higher education for your whole career?" They both said, "Corporate control of the university," and they are teaching PhD students in higher ed. Just your thoughts on the Free Speech Movement, how important it was?
ES (00:42:17):
Well, it, I think, emphasized the significance of higher education, institutions of higher education, as those places where people not only can debate ideas freely... But also, in the contemporary world, as you know, the media is increasingly shrinking and speaking more to niches than not to a general public. We do not have that general debate out there at any high level. It is all soundbites. So, the universities are really the last place where you can deal with complicated ideas, where you can deal with complexity, where things are not just black or white, but are much more nuanced. Of course, that is something that I think and do not want to talk about a corporate conspiracy, but clearly, we are seeing a dumbing down of public debate, public discourse. Universities are really the last place that is pushing back against that. But as they are being starved for funds, as there are all these pressures from the outside against tenured radicals, you know that whole business-
SM (00:44:11):
Oh, yeah.
ES (00:44:11):
... then universities are increasingly on the defensive. Their administrations are scrambling for money. They are totally focused on the bottom line. What that means, of course, is that they have to go out and get students, their students. It creates a very competitive atmosphere on campuses. It is competitive for faculty. It is competitive for students. The values of a desire to learn, the desire to find things out, the desire to find things out for oneself, is a sideline in this need for getting ahead for what you see now is an increasing vocationalization of higher ed.
SM (00:45:09):
Yep.
ES (00:45:12):
Where people are essentially majoring in occupational therapy and not liberal arts, which, I think, are increasingly necessary for the creation of an informed citizenry. What we are losing is that informed citizenry that can think about reality rather than something that is been filtered through advertising and celebrities and this whole soundbite culture.
SM (00:45:50):
I have this theory, and I like your opinion on it, and that is based on my experiences of 30 years in higher ed at four different universities, Jefferson being one, Ohio University, Ohio State, and Westchester University. That is that it seems like the term activism is a term that universities are deathly afraid of. They like the term volunteerism. Everybody's volunteering. In my studies, I read that volunteerism is at its peak when it is usually a conservative era. But certainly, the Peace Corps was about volunteerism. Volunteers in Service to America was the same thing. If you go to any university campus now, just about 95 percent of students are involved in some sort of volunteer activity. Some required, and some do it on their own and join clubs and get involved. But when you talk about activism, I have always believed that activism is a step beyond volunteerism. Volunteerism might be twice a week or once a week. But 24/7 is what activism is. It is a state of mind. It is a state of being. It is about speaking up. It is about challenging. It is about seeing injustice and trying to write it. I can go on and on here. Do you believe that universities today, whether it be the university you teach at or Berkeley or SUNY Binghamton, my alma mater or Ohio State or other alma mater, are they afraid of the word activism?
ES (00:47:32):
Oh, sure. What we are seeing, of course, I mean, one way of looking at it is this kind of... What do they call it? Civic service or something that is being pushed on many campuses. It is very much about individualism. It is individual action. Whereas what you are talking about is really a collective action that is directed against systemic problems. In other words, it is not enough or individuals to work in soup kitchens or food banks. Maybe we should change the laws and create a different kind of welfare system. So, there is a big difference here between individual acts, charity and something that is really challenging the system at a much deeper level.
SM (00:48:39):
I agree. We had an activist series at Westchester. It was growing. We had Tom Hayden, we had Daniel Berrigan. I mean, he was really growing, and we read Howard Zinn's thin book, and we had faculty members coming in with students reading it together. We were asked to stop it because it was... I do not know why, but we were asked to stop it, even though it was becoming a success. So, something was happening beyond the areas that I know that were threatening someone.
ES (00:49:14):
Really? When was this?
SM (00:49:17):
Oh, this was recently at my university, within the last 10 years.
ES (00:49:20):
Yeah, interesting.
SM (00:49:20):
It may have been as much against me as it was against what we were doing. Because when we had a small group of students and they did not think it was enough people that were involved, and it was a long story. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and I also interviewed David Horowitz, they had mentioned to me that they said that the radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling today's universities. But then I asked them, let us be more specific here, because I know a lot of conservatives who are running universities today. They said, "Well, what we are really saying is that they control the curriculum." Do you believe that? Phyllis Schlafly is very strong on this. She said, "The radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling the curriculum of the university."
ES (00:50:12):
No, no. What happened is that in the (19)60s, universities expanded, we have already talked about that, brought in whole new groups of people. Universities began to address issues that they had not addressed before because there was pressure from their own students. But it is not because the students were radical, it is because the students were African American or Hispanic and felt somewhat excluded. The administration, much more than the faculty themselves, are the ones who created some of these changes. One group I studied, I looked at for my book on the Lost Soul of Higher Education, were people who started women's studies programs. Well, these women may have been radicals, but the pressure to extend women's studies came from their students. The administrators were very-very happy to accommodate them, to create women studies programs. Why? Because students were taking them, they were popular. That feeds this bottom-line mentality. If you can attract a lot of students, your administration likes you.
SM (00:51:49):
Yes, definitely. That is one of the things. Would you say that when you look the era of the Boomer generation and the accomplishments that came out of the period, some people say they were negatives, like I mentioned earlier, their opinions, but that one of the greatest accomplishments that ever came out of this period was the fact of the women's studies, the Black studies, the Native American studies, Asian American studies, all the different studies programs that were all criticized in one way or another at the beginning, but have become very legitimate and important parts of the university of today?
ES (00:52:27):
Well, yeah, I think so. I mean, also, one of the big changes that we are seeing in curriculum in my school, which is a very conservative school, to put it mildly, has just implemented some curricular reforms, much of it having to do with the introduction of non-western studies, of looking at the rest of the world, which is absolutely crucial. That is not being propelled by (19)60s radicals. It is being compelled by the changes out there in society.
SM (00:53:06):
Yeah. I remember when Henry Cisneros spoke at the NASPA conference about maybe 12 years ago, former mayor of San Antonio. He said, "We have been preaching a long time in higher education about preparing our students for the global world." We are in the technology world here. So, it is a little different than even in the (19)60s, but even then, you can communicate faster than you could in the (19)50s. Basically, is not that what it is all about? We need to prepare students for the global world that we are facing. Thus, when we talk about Muslim studies and understanding Islam is preparing our students to understand the cultures of the world, the people they are going to live with, the people they are going to work with, and the people who are going to be their bosses.
ES (00:53:54):
Yeah.
SM (00:53:56):
That is what Henry Cisneros was talking, said, " You need to prepare for the future, not be afraid of the future," and that was his presentation. "Do not fear the future, prepare for the future." I get emotional on this. This is a very important topic. Well, when did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end?
ES (00:54:21):
Oh, boy. I teach a course on the (19)60s, so I devote at least one class to that. It really varies. I think you could always say, "Well, let us take the election of Kennedy." But a lot of stuff began earlier. Certainly, the Civil Rights Movement is building up from what civil rights historians called the Long Civil Rights Movement, from the Second World War on. On the other hand, you can say, well, the escalation of the Vietnam War in 1964, (19)65 may have created the more raucous part of the (19)60s. Certainly with regard to say women's issues, it is really not till again, the mid (19)60s that women become much more self-conscious. Betty Freidan's Feminine Mystique is published in 1963. When does it end? Again, I forget to look at the mid (19)70s, the oil shock, and the Vietnam War.
SM (00:55:58):
Was there a watershed moment that stands out above everything else?
ES (00:56:05):
Moments. No one, single one, I think-
SM (00:56:11):
Some people believe that we are still... Well, because of the culture wars, (19)60s never ended because of the battles that are ongoing and continue. If you go to the Vietnam memorials, you will see many of them have still got their problems with those who were in the anti-war movement, and that is just a small segment. But you see the battle within the university that you write so brilliantly about. The two words that stand out is the concept of truth, which was the Western civilization, the truth, and Aristotle and Plato and so forth. Then relevance, which, it has got to be relevant to me. Well, Western civilization is, "We have got to prepare you as a liberal person." So those are all part of the ongoing... I think we are doing okay time-wise.
ES (00:57:08):
Yeah.
SM (00:57:10):
Any other thoughts on...
ES (00:57:14):
Well, I think the country has turned so far to the right since the 1970s that to talk about being under the sway of the (19)60s is just fantasy. Well, we are living in a very conservative moment in which things that were taken for granted in the (19)60s are deemed totally unrealistic like the fact that the government might be able to do some good and create valuable social programs.
SM (00:57:58):
Yes.
ES (00:57:59):
Nope. That is just...
SM (00:58:04):
The one thing I wanted to ask you because you bring it up in the book is the fact that the university was... Again, Mario Savio said that the purpose of the university is about ideas. So, when the conservative right, whether it be not Mr. Pipes, who many people on our campus can out stand, they always bring him up, something about him rubs people the wrong way. Irving Kristol, that group of people... See, what am I trying to say here?
ES (00:58:42):
What, these cultural conservatives?
SM (00:58:44):
Yeah, the cultural conservatives. I was trying to get to a point here about... The thing that we talk about, if Savio says that it is about ideas and Dr. Pipes says it is something about truth, what is the difference? There are different truths. So, Pipes has a problem with different truths. You raised this in your book.
ES (00:59:20):
Okay. Well, what is weird is that to a certain extent, these people who are bemoaning, the loss of that sense of centeredness and a common culture, which is a quote, unquote, "elite culture"... Often, I have a big deal sympathy for them because one of the big fights that I see and that I think one of the big problems within universities is not so much the content of general education courses, but the fact that... What is it now? I think over 60 percent of all students are there not getting any exposure to it. They are taking occupational therapy; they are taking hotel management. They are not getting exposure to anything that is giving them an ability to think critically about their own lives and about their own culture and their own country. The people who are concerned about the denial of absolute truth and how humanists have become relativists and all that, are not dealing with the real problem. I think they probably do not really care that 70 percent of all college students are studying hotel management. Because they are elitist, they are only thinking about the top tier of upper class and upper middle-class students who are making it into these highly selective, elite schools. They are students who got to Williams, who are going to Stanford and Harvard and University of Michigan maybe. The ones who are going to Westchester University, they do not care about. So, I think it is very much a class issue.
SM (01:01:42):
See, access to higher education is one of the greatest accomplishments that I have seen in my lifetime and to see criticism of affirmative action or multiculturalism and diversity, and not only with African-Americans, but Latinos and women and gay and lesbian students, transgender, Asian students, and Native America, you name it. I cannot understand why people are critical of that like it. And to be openly blatant about the fact that wanting to go back to the way it was when white America, white middle class America, was basically the college students of the era, just bottles my mind. And that is kind of what... I have got a little more here. One of the things I wanted to mention, too, you probably talked about this in your class, is the generation gap. There was that historic, well, that historic... that Life Magazine cover, which I have framed, it was in my office for many years, of the young student that was in the blue with his father pointing fingers at him in one eye, and he is pointing finger back at his dad and in the other eye and it is basically talking about the generation gap between parents of the World War II generation and their kids over culture, over the war, a lot of other things. Did you experience that a lot in your own family, number one?
ES (01:03:16):
No.
SM (01:03:17):
And did you see it amongst your peers on college campuses when you were there?
ES (01:03:21):
No.
SM (01:03:24):
I bring the generation gap up because of the fact that in 1984, there was a book that came out called The Wounded Degeneration. There was a symposium made up of veterans like Phil Caputo, Jack Wheeler, Jim Webb, who is now a Senator, Bobby Muller and James Stahls. The purpose of the meeting was the fact that Webb brought up, he said that we all think of the Boomer generation as a service-oriented generation because the Kennedys asked not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country- These, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, the Peace Corps and giving back. But Mr. Webb said, "It's anything but. The (19)60s generation was not about service because if it was about service, they would have gone and served their nation in the Vietnam War." And he said, "So it is as much about the generation gap between parents and their kids, but it is also between the generation itself, those who served, and those who did not." What are your thoughts on the generation gap and the intra-generation gap?
ES (01:04:35):
There is a wonderful book about the people who served in Vietnam called the Working-Class War. You know it?
SM (01:04:41):
I think I am-
ES (01:04:41):
Chris Appy.
SM (01:04:41):
Okay.
ES (01:04:51):
It is a wonderful book. And I teach Vietnam and I usually assign it. And basically, the military draft, because of the 2- S student deferment, meant that the people who were drafted were trying to escape the draft, came from a working-class background, mainly inner-city kids, rural kids. It is the same today disproportionately, and middle-class white kids did not serve. Very-very few. I mean, I knew some when I was a graduate student, but there were very few. And so, it's really a class issue here. That is what we are talking about. There were some upper-class kids, John Kerry, comes to mind.
SM (01:06:00):
Oh, yes.
ES (01:06:01):
He did. But that is the exception.
SM (01:06:10):
Jim Webb, I almost had an interview with him before he became senator and now it is impossible to even get through to him, but he is very vocal on a lot of subjects. He is responsible for the three men statue being there because a lot of people did not want it there. Not very big Vietnam vets. But is that very strong language that he is using saying that he condemns the entire generation if they are labeled as service-oriented generation because they did not serve in Vietnam?
ES (01:06:40):
No. It is those of us who opposed the war felt that by working in the anti-war movement, we were doing our service.
SM (01:06:51):
See that is an important point, too, that is come up that some anti-war people had believed that they were veterans, too, of the war, but in a different way. And when I mentioned that to Vietnam veterans, some of them laugh it off. They said, "They did not serve in Vietnam."
ES (01:07:08):
No, they did not. But I do not think it is the same thing. But what they were doing was what they felt was best for the country. And I feel very strongly. I mean, I think Vietnam was absolutely crucial for anybody who lived through the (19)60s and it was an immoral, terrible war. And whatever anybody could do to stop it, I think was justified.
SM (01:07:43):
What did the universities learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s that they have carried into today? I know that we had new leadership at the top of every university and that many of the presidents of that era have died off. But what did they learn from that period and what have they forgotten?
ES (01:08:05):
Well, I think actually what happened was that-
SM (01:08:05):
Let me turn this other one. This one is a little slower.
ES (01:08:18):
... what happened was not so much that they learned today. I think that what happened was, by the end of the (19)60s, beginning of the (19)70s, all of a sudden, they were confronted with unprecedented financial issues, and they immediately switched to a different mode. When we talk about the corporatization of the American university, what we are really talking about is the fact that from the early (19)70s on, college and university administrations are essentially concerned with financial issues and that they are doing whatever they can to raise money, to have good relationships with state legislatures, to help their faculty get grants. You had, for example, in 1980, the passage of the Bayh-Dole Amendment which allows universities to actually profit from the research, the federally funded research that their faculty members have been carrying out. And you get more and more academic administrators behaving not as intellectual leaders or public intellectuals, but as fundraisers and-
SM (01:09:58):
That is one of the reasons why I left the university. I refused to be a fundraiser and link educational programs like the Islam America Conference to money. I refused. And I knew my time was up. So, you raise a very important point here.
ES (01:10:22):
... So I think whatever concerns they may have had about student activism or anything, just that was of secondary importance, and they begin to identify with the institution as an institution rather than with the institution as some kind of educational entity or a place for intellectual discourse or for any kind of research other than research that can be measured either in money or in some sort of terms of prestige. The US News and World Report has absolutely undermined higher education in that respect.
SM (01:11:14):
It is interesting because the university has kind of been really doing this assessment thing. You got to prove that what you do has value to students. And I would say that we would get instant responses back from students who had been involved in the program, but you cannot assess the importance of a speaker, a forum, a conference, on a student immediately. It is something that could impact you years from now. They want instant satisfaction and instant assessment. And I say, you cannot do that in student life. You cannot.
ES (01:11:49):
Right.
SM (01:11:51):
You can get your data, but it is just not going to happen. And it is just like, it is amazing. An assessment is everything now, as you well know. Prove it has value and if you do not prove it immediately, then maybe we will cut it. Would you say that the university is really the main [inaudible] now in America over the respect of the cultural wars?
ES (01:12:17):
Yes.
SM (01:12:17):
And this is what frustrates the conservatives more than anything else is they have not been able to get control of it?
ES (01:12:22):
Yeah. I think, I mean, it is also happening, of course, in the schools as well. The No Child Left Behind Act has been actually disastrous with respect to, again, it is data driven. So, they measure what they can measure rather than what might have some intrinsic importance but cannot be quantified. And so, you have got schools all over the country teaching to the test rather than actually helping students learn. It is not very useful. It is certainly diverting attention, money, and sort of quality education is not occurring.
SM (01:13:21):
You bring up also that the think tanks that have really developed since the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, the Heritage Foundation, groups like that, are basically because I know I have interviewed quite a few of them and a couple of them are my friends. I have interviewed them, Michael Barone and people like that, Marvin Olasky. But the question I want to bring up here is many that went into these think tanks felt that they could not survive in a university, that the liberal university was ostracizing conservative faculty members. So, for them to truly get their voice, they had to leave the university and join... And of course, the Ola Foundation was the one you talked about that to fund them with lots of money to get their point of view out there. This is part of the culture wars. This is like...
ES (01:14:19):
Yes. If there were wrestling foundations out there, I might need two, but not because of staff, but because who does not want to be well paid to write books? But you cannot tell me right-wingers who are getting that kind of money.
SM (01:14:39):
And they are the main threat to the universities then today really.
ES (01:14:42):
The only person, I am sure there are others, but the only person I can think of who sort of a prolific writer on the left is who I guess left the university, because I know she has got a PhD, is Barbara Ehrenreich.
SM (01:14:58):
Oh, yeah.
ES (01:15:00):
She is obviously supporting herself by her writing, but she is not in the same [inaudible] department.
SM (01:15:07):
I interviewed Charles Murray, and we all know him, and Christina Hoff Summers, people like that, Ruth Seidel, [inaudible] to that group. Would you consider the Muslim students of today, the communist, the students who were labeled, or faculty members that were labeled, as communists in the (19)50s and African American students in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s, would you? I am saying we have a xenophobia in this country, which is a fear of people who are different, and we love the status quo. And whenever it is threatened by any group trying to get access to what other people have, there is resistance. Would you say Muslim students are that way today?
ES (01:16:00):
Yeah. I think there is a kind of demonization that, especially since 9/11 has targeted Muslims and people from the Middle East. No question about it.
SM (01:16:14):
When you see that link between the McCarthy period, too, and ostracizing those people who may have been labeled communist and then African American students?
ES (01:16:25):
Sure-sure.
SM (01:16:25):
Yeah?
ES (01:16:37):
You know, had a similar kind of scapegoating going on.
SM (01:16:37):
I only got about six more questions here. Could I use your restroom? Here we go. I have just a listing here, and I am not going to list all these things. I just wrote them out here. But what do you consider the major events in Boomer lives of... What do you believe, when you teach the (19)60s, some of the major events that really shaped their lives from that period? I have specific events. I do not know if you want me to read them here or list them.
ES (01:17:14):
Obviously, the civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. I mean, I think those are the two key ones. And everything else sort of comes out of that, including the Women's Movement.
SM (01:17:42):
Right. I will just read these real fast. It will take maybe about five, well, maybe a minute. But I would certainly list McCarthyism in the (19)50s because I am talking about the things that really were historic events in the period of their lives. The Montgomery Bus Boycott in (19)56, Sputnik in (19)57 which was the thrust for education. I think Elvis Presley played a key role because of rock and roll music.
ES (01:18:07):
[inaudible]
SM (01:18:08):
It was the late (19)50s and he was the precursor. And the Beatles, obviously, in (19)64. The election of John Kennedy, Eisenhower's famous statement about the military industrial complex, which there is a great movie out on it. Certainly, the Bay pf Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis where we could have ended the world. Certainly, the Kennedy assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin, Johnson withdraws from the presidency. Everything in 1968. The assassinations and the convention and the trial. Barry Goldwater's rise which, at that time, did not seem very big as he was destroyed in the election, but was the beginning of the Reagan period really. My La, the bombing of Cambodia in 1970, and Kent State. And then I just had Woodstock in (19)69 and the Summer of 11, (19)67. The beatniks that I felt were important because of the fact they were antiestablishment, the communal movements, Watergate in (19)73, leaving Vietnam in (19)75. The Carter Presidency was important because it was during this time that the rise of the religious right was happening even though he was a Democrat. And the la-
ES (01:19:25):
Oh, also the oil shock.
SM (01:19:27):
Yes, the oil. I remember that.
ES (01:19:29):
That is a big thing. That is the moment at which this sort of belief in unlimited economic expansion comes to an end, you know? That you come up against limits, including environmental limits and economic limits.
SM (01:19:47):
Well, that My Lai speech that he gave, too, which-
ES (01:19:49):
[inaudible]
SM (01:19:52):
... he has been definitely criticized for giving that, but it was really kind of truthful.
ES (01:19:55):
Mm-hmm.
SM (01:19:56):
And then certainly the Reagan election, perestroika, the fall of Communism, the Gulf War, Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, those kinds of things. And then I had on here historic events on the colleges, which what happened at Cornell that you so beautifully talk about in your book in (19)69, Jackson State in (19)70, Columbia in (19)69, Harvard Square, Wisconsin, a tragedy there. And then, of course, [inaudible] and San Francisco State. Those are all kind of things that stood out amongst the Boomers. That is for me. Is that a good representation?
ES (01:20:34):
I would say so. Do you have the Free Speech Movement?
SM (01:20:36):
Yes. I have that. I did not write it here, but it certainly is in there. And Freedom Summer, too.
ES (01:20:43):
Yeah.
SM (01:20:43):
Definitely. As a scholar, writer, professor, author, and you were the head of AAUP for-
ES (01:20:51):
No. I was the editor of the [inaudible]
SM (01:20:55):
Okay. What has been the relationship between faculty and students since (19)46? I bring this up because it is not talked about very much. I went into higher education because I saw the lack of communication that was happening between students and college administrators. They did not trust them. Not one iota. And I was at Binghamton at the time. We trusted faculty, but then faculty were really having some hard times at Binghamton because they wanted to be out of the protests, but they could not be. I remember Dr. Mahosky who had just come from Berkeley in our social department at Binghamton, he was challenged by the student leadership by saying, "You just graduated with a PhD in Berkeley. We want you over with us united against the recruiting on campus." And he said, "I am not going to do that. I have a job now. I have a little child to raise. I am not going to do what I did at Berkeley. I got a job." And then the student had debated him right on the spot and challenged him. And I actually kicked him out of class. And I will never forget that, but that was kind of what was happening. But we had faculty members in our residence halls that were always there for us, who would be willing to talk with us about the issues of the day. So as a person who has been a scholar herself, what has been the historic relationship, not between administration and students, but between faculty and students? And specifically, the Boomers when they were in college in the (19)60s and (19)70s.
ES (01:22:35):
You are dealing there.... Oh, that is my husband. Hang on a second.
SM (01:22:38):
Yup. Yeah, the relationship between students and faculty.
ES (01:23:10):
Oh, right. It varied on campuses. Younger faculty were often very close to students. And remember, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the faculty was very young, you know? It is my generation who was lured into, I mean they literally threw money at us. Anybody who was a good student, they threw money at. I did not even think of going to graduate school. I was going to become a high school teacher. And I was nominated for a fellowship, and I said to myself, if I get a fellowship, I will go to graduate school. But I got the fellowship. I had not even applied to graduate school.
SM (01:23:44):
Wow.
ES (01:23:45):
That would not happen today, to put it mildly. And so, there was just this sort of generation of very young faculty members who were involved in things like teaching. That was a big movement in the early days of the Vietnam War. My ex-husband was very much involved with ethnicities for Chinese history. And anybody who knew anything about Asia would get involved so that there were faculty activists. They were very split. And I talk about that in my book about whether they should express their activism the way the students did, you know? Participating in demonstrations and sit-ins or whether they should do it through their intellectual work, through exploring Black history or women's history. And I see myself as, and my work as, very much, my political work, doing through my scholarship, looking at questions of dissent and [inaudible], in particular. Just mainly because I think that is probably what I do better than anything else, so that, therefore, it is probably the most effective use of my time and energy.
SM (01:25:23):
My whole career has been about bringing students and the faculty together because that was my job as co-curricular program director, director of student programming. And I did at every university I worked at. I loved working with the faculty. In fact, the faculty never thought of me as an administrator and that was a positive. They said, "We feel that you are part of us." And that got me in a little trouble at times when I had to take stands that were either faculty stands or administrative stands, and I was really more with the faculty than I was with the administration. But one of the things, a lot of the young people of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s were involved in Encounter. Encounter was a very important part of one's graduate education. And you even bring up in your book how a lot of the classes in that period in the (19)70s where the students would sit in the round and they'd be able to express their feelings on things, that is what the graduate education was like at Ohio State University in the (19)70s, was Encounter. And that is been heavily criticized, too, because it was forcing you to speak your mind and you could be vulnerable and you needed support, and then sometimes you can be on your own. And so, it was a great lesson for me. But they do not do that today. It is not part of the training. And I think we were closer to faculty members back then than we are now. Would you agree on that?
ES (01:26:55):
Well, I think what happened was that, in the mid (19)70s, beginning a little earlier in some fields, they stopped hiring full-time faculty members. So that there is a lost cohort of academics of people, in their really from their (19)40s and (19)50s, early (19)60s, that my generation is about, many of them have retired, many of my friends have retired.
SM (01:27:39):
Right.
ES (01:27:42):
And so, the age difference because of this lost generation, I think is a problem. I mean, when I was, well, in graduate school, I would not say that, but some of the people who I was closest to, faculty members, were maybe 10 years older than me. That is not a huge difference. But when they are 30 years older, they are another generation.
SM (01:28:10):
And that was my challenge. But I have a little philosophy of, never lose the kid in you, from Roy Campanella, you know?
ES (01:28:16):
Yeah.
SM (01:28:18):
And my graduate advisor was a PhD at 29 at Ohio State, Dr. Johnson. He came from the University of Illinois. How important were the students at ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion? A lot of people believe they played an important role. Some say it was just a minor role.
ES (01:28:40):
They played a role. I mean, can we quantify how important it was? Certainly, they brought a lot of publicity and attention to the anti-war course. But there were a lot of other people. Basically, for a lot of that period, I was just a faculty wife. I was not really active as an academic. A lot of people like me, ordinary citizens. Plus, of course, you have to [inaudible], you know?
SM (01:28:59):
Yes.
ES (01:28:59):
They were crucial, I think. They-
SM (01:29:14):
When you-
ES (01:29:14):
... they needed the Americans.
SM (01:29:22):
... Yeah. When you teach your course on Vietnam, what is the reason why we lost the war? What is the reason why we lost that war?
ES (01:29:32):
Because we could not win it. The way that the American government defined victory was an independent non-communist South Vietnam. That did not exist. And so, the only way we could win the war was not to lose it. And the only way that we could not lose it was by maintaining a massive American military presence. And that turned out to be politically impossible. So that was that.
SM (01:30:09):
And that is where the Vietnam syndrome really comes in, too, because when George Bush says the Vietnam syndrome is over, I mean, really? And still influences foreign policy and certainly where we are in Afghanistan today.
ES (01:30:23):
Yeah.
SM (01:30:24):
Do faculty today overall support the university as a vehicle for uplifting all races? This was a quality that really came about during the (19)60s and (19)70s. And where are the faculty today, liberal and conservative, with respect to, what is the purpose of the university?
ES (01:30:48):
Oh man, that is a tough one. To begin with, 70 percent of the faculty are what we call contingent faculty members. They are-
SM (01:31:06):
Adjuncts.
ES (01:31:06):
... adjuncts or people on short term contract who have no chance of tenure. There is only 30 percent and shrinking of tenured and tenure-track faculty members. So that, I mean, that is absolutely the most important fact to know about higher education today, which is that the, what we would call the casualization of the faculty.
SM (01:31:19):
Yeah.
ES (01:31:26):
And so, when you talk about faculty, you are talking about people who are living usually very desperate lives. Or else, a lot of faculty, especially who's more vocationally-oriented programs, are people whose primary identification is as a practitioner in some other field than higher education. In other words, they are teaching part-time, but they're basically accountants who teach one course in accounting at a community college. They are accounted as faculty, but they do not probably identify themselves as faculty. And that is very important. And so, when you are talking about core faculty members, that is not the main group now teaching in American university. So, for traditional faculty members, how do they view the mission of the university? They are under enormous pressure, especially if they do not have tenure yet to produce because it's such a competitive atmosphere. They have to, at most schools now, you have to have a book. It is crazy.
SM (01:32:57):
Before you are even hired?
ES (01:33:00):
In some cases, yeah.
SM (01:33:06):
Uh-huh.
ES (01:33:06):
But at least for tenure, you need a book.
SM (01:33:07):
Yeah.
ES (01:33:08):
And the pressure is for people now in literary studies, and Modern Language Association did a survey of tenure practices and claim that people needed not just a book, but sufficient progress for the second book to get tenure. So, the bar keeps rising. Same thing for scientists. They have to get grants and it is increasingly more difficult to get grants than it used to be. From the good old days in the (19)60s, they threw money at people. Now even very well-known scientists often cannot get their research funding. And so, the pressures are on people to get grants to work in areas that are going to be popular, that are for scientists and engineers. And often these are fields in which there is more corporate influence, you know? Biomedical stuff, electronics and things like that.
SM (01:34:32):
One of the questions I have asked everyone from day one when I interviewed Senator McCarthy, the late Senator McCarthy, and that is, do you feel that the Boomer generation has an issue with healing like the Civil War generation that went to his grave not truly healed? I bring this question up because in 1995, a group of 14 students in our Leadership On The Road Program did meet Senator Edwin Muskie. I knew Senator Nelson and so we met 14 former United States Senators. And we were very lucky because Senator Muskie had just gotten out of the hospital and actually died four months later. But he gave us two hours and one of the questions the students came up with is, they were not alive in 1968, but they had seen the video and they wanted to know, they saw the divisions, the terrible divisions in America, assassinations, police and young people fighting each other, riots in the streets, burnings and so forth. And they wanted to know if their parents' generation were going to go to their graves not truly healed because of the tremendous divisions of the time, and they asked him this question. And is healing an issue in this generation? Do you feel it is an important issue when you teach the (19)60s? Because the Vietnam Memorial was... Jan Scruggs wrote, To Heal a Nation, which was trying to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. But I think he wanted to also- Trying to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. But I think he wanted to also try to heal the nation in its own way through the wall that heals.
ES (01:36:12):
It is an interesting question. It is not one I look at mainly it is when I teach the (19)60s, by the end of the semester I am rushing through it. So, I never get to sort of any final summing up and looking at that kind of issue. So, I am not really sure. Sometimes, certainly it's in the rhetoric of some of these people who are still blaming these radicals for everything that went wrong in the country. But I do not know whether at a sort of grassroots level it was still a live issue or not. I have a feeling that the economic issues that began to surface after 74 and the sort of transformation of the economy and the squeeze on the middle class, people are not thinking in terms of the (19)60s anymore. But I could be wrong.
SM (01:37:16):
Musty answered in a way the students were not even expecting. He basically said that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race. And he had just seen the Ken Burns series on TV. And he had come in the hospital, and he gave a lecture on all the 600,000 who had died in the Civil War, almost an entire generation. He did not even mention the (19)60s. And here is a man who was the vice-presidential candidate in Chicago. Students looked at each other and were shocked, but that is where he was coming from. The issue of race has not healed. And I think I raised the question because when you go to the Gettysburg Battlefield, you will see a statue there. The last person alive who served in the war, and he died in 1924, something like that. And then when you go to the Vietnam Memorial, I interview Jan Scruggs. He thinks there are many that anti-war that come to that wall with their kids and regret that they did not serve because it was the watershed event of the era. And those who may have been against the war would not change feelings. But many of the boomer generation had brought their families there and some of their kids that said, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" Would you say also the lack of trust is an important quality within the boomer generation? They just were not a trusting generation. They all saw all these leaders lie at them.
ES (01:38:48):
Yeah. Well, sure. There was an enormous amount of hypocrisy and I think they were always has been. Franklin Roosevelt lied.
SM (01:39:00):
Yeah, Eisenhower lied on you too.
ES (01:39:02):
Sure. I mean, Roosevelt essentially pushed the United States toward the Second World War. We supported that war. So, the fact that he was doing a lot of covert stuff, military stuff, we overlooked because it was the good war. But that is what politicians do.
SM (01:39:28):
Would you say this lack of trust though is a positive quality? Because in political science 101 class, you are always taught that you need to challenge your government and never take anything for granted. And so, it is actually a good quality, not a bad quality?
ES (01:39:41):
I think so. But the problem is that it is very hard for people to get information. What we are seeing is a lot of government secrecy, enormous amount of government secrecy. It's really increased exponentially. One of the things I am looking at in my current work.
SM (01:40:05):
I am down to my final, actually, three questions.
ES (01:40:10):
Okay. Because I am going to have to leave.
SM (01:40:10):
Could you define the term counterculture in your own words?
ES (01:40:16):
Well, it is a very specific moment in American life in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, mainly of young people who are sort of sloughing off a kind of easy, materialistic set of values that had been fairly prevalent in American society. And teaching through drugs, through music, through communal living, through political activism. A whole kind of new, I use the word lifestyle, but that is really what we are talking about. A new set of values.
SM (01:40:58):
Could you define culture wars?
ES (01:41:06):
Oh yeah. That is something that I ordinarily do not believe in conspiracy, but I have got this document from the early (19)70s that was written by the future Supreme Court, justice Lewis Powell, who was advised-
SM (01:41:25):
Oh yes, that was in the book.
ES (01:41:29):
Advising a friend in the Chamber of Commerce about how to deal with liberal academics who were supposedly poisoning their students against, I guess, the corporate sector. And what you see is a very well-funded attack on whatever social movements and ideas came out of the (19)60s.
SM (01:42:00):
What are your thoughts on these two books? Clark Kerr's, Uses of the University, was a classic book, and it was about in the free speech movement. And I think Ernie Boyers, the College of the Undergraduate Years, is just a treasure. He was in the SUNY system, and I had a chance to meet him and briefly know him. Your thoughts on those two scholars and the meanings of their work?
ES (01:42:28):
Poor Clark Kerr. Again, apparently during the free speech movement, I have read his memoirs, I have been on programs with him and stuff. He is very evasive. He is a labor negotiator. He believes you get everybody together in a room and things will work out. And I think he was completely blindsided by how rigid the sort of conservatives and the board among the regions were, and how ideological the students were. He really just could not deal with it. And he was an end of ideology person.
SM (01:43:27):
Oh, yeah. And Daniel Bell, I interviewed him last summer before he died.
ES (01:43:31):
Yeah. And Boyer's stuff, I do not know as well. I mean, I know his stuff he did on the quote unquote, scholarship of teaching. And clearly, he wanted to de-emphasize research at the undergraduate level, which is part of the competitive trust within the American Academy.
SM (01:44:06):
Would you say that the best books that were written for the boomers at the period in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s were books like actually, that Culture of Narcissism was the late (19)70s. The End of Ideology was Daniel Bell's book in the early '60s. And then you had Theodore Roszak’s book, the Making of a Counterculture. And then you had The Greeting of America by Charles Reich. Those are all major pieces to me, over a 20-year period of critique of the generation. And do you agree? Do you think they are all valid works?
ES (01:44:52):
I have never read most of them. Actually, what is interesting, only when I got into doing this most recent book, did I read Bloom.
SM (01:44:59):
Oh, yes.
ES (01:45:01):
Which was the book, it was the best teller. I owned it, but I had never read it. Well, I read it and discovered tons of things in there. But a lot of these iconic books, I have a feeling, do not get read.
SM (01:45:18):
When I interviewed Daniel Bell, who was not, well, of course he is passed away. And that was at Harvard. It was a thunderstorm. And then there is this old house right near the Theological Seminary up there. And I am in that area there, and his wife is upstairs on a machine keeping her alive, and he has got a maid working for him. And he is not well. But when I asked that question about about Roszak and Reich, "Garbage. Garbage, they were not intellects." And then I said, "What did you think of Kenneth Kenison's Youth and Descent?" "That was a good book." So, it was interesting in talking. Who were the most influential scholars present as teachers who shaped the university any time after World War II?
ES (01:46:18):
Markusa, obviously. And then I think, I am not sure I could even name them all. It is the people who began doing stuff when Vietnam, who began looking at American farm policy.
SM (01:46:48):
Chomsky?
ES (01:46:48):
Yeah. But I was doing history, so I am sort of thinking of the revisionist scholars.
SM (01:46:50):
Oh, yes.
ES (01:46:54):
I am thinking of Herb Guttman, and people who were doing social history, very important in my field. E.B. Thompson, the British starring was crucial. Looking at working class history. It may be different in different fields. I am thinking, not just in terms of the general culture, but in terms of the intellectual history of specific fields.
SM (01:47:31):
And this is kind of a two-part question. Who were the winners in the (19)60s and (19)70s in higher ed or even in society? And who were the losers? And secondly, who were the heroes of the boomers? Were there winners and losers in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
ES (01:47:41):
I was going to say that is not the kind of a question that I would have asked or that I think I could give an answer to. Who were the losers? Linden Johnson, Richard Nixon. But I do not know that anybody won.
SM (01:47:41):
And the heroes?
ES (01:47:41):
People like King, obviously, Bob Moses, Mario [inaudible]. I think to a certain extent Bobby Kennedy was a very charismatic figure. I mean, what always struck me about Bobby Kennedy was how much he was able to change.
SM (01:47:41):
Oh yeah.
ES (01:47:41):
From this sort of tough guy enforcer in his early career to somebody who really was reaching out. Fannie Lou Hamer. That same pantheon of figures mainly in the Civil Rights movement, which I think, at least for me, was really just so exemplary in so many ways.
SM (01:49:23):
I do have one more question. And that is, did the boomers become the most unique generation in history? Did they change the world for the better as they said they were going to do when they were young? And I know that I have actually met with some of my former peers at my undergraduate school, and they still feel the way they did back in the '60s, that they feel that the generation did a lot to make the world better, but look at the word we are living in. So just your thoughts. This boomer generation is still, they are 65 at the oldest now, and they are going into old senior citizen period.
ES (01:50:04):
They are still out there.
SM (01:50:04):
Yeah, they are still out there. But for the first 65 years, what can you say about them? Did they change the world for the better overall?
ES (01:50:12):
George W Bush did not. I think it is mixed, very mixed.
SM (01:50:24):
Yeah. I know the only two boomer presidents have been Clinton and Bush, but actually Obama is a boomer, but he was only two. Finally, the last thing. I am done, but I wanted to read this and if you had any comment, just comment on this. And finally, we know only about 5 percent of the 70 million became activists in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Some used the statistic that most young people were not active or linked to causes as a negative. However, this still adds up to many millions. And my question is this, for those who were active, whether it be conservatives or liberals, do you feel they were very different in a positive way with respect to caring about equality, justice, freedom of speech, respect for differences, wanting to make the world a better place to live? Or was it all about, as some of their critics say, a generation that was selfish, not selfless. They avoided the draft in any way possible. Plus wanted instant satisfaction via demands due to their being brought up in the (19)50s as spoiled kids who were given everything by their depression era parents. This applies to white middle class students, but also eventually to the African American students and students who lived in poverty. Because they were also making demands, but for different reasons.
ES (01:52:07):
Well, you know that my answer would be that clearly there were real social problems. The Vietnam world was a major problem. And people were motivated to take action for very idealistic reasons. It did not turn out well in every case, but I do not think these people are self-interested. It is a mixture of people.
SM (01:52:25):
Was there any question I did not ask you-you thought I was going to?
ES (01:52:25):
No, that was very good.
SM (01:52:25):
Great. Any final comments?
ES (01:52:25):
Nope.
SM (01:52:25):
Testing one, two. Testing.
ES (01:55:51):
The other thing that I learned when I was doing, actually, my other book on McCarthyism. I did not learn this until somewhat later, was that my sixth-grade teacher had been fired for having been at communist. He had never come up before a committee. But the FBI had fingered him. And at that point, the school, it was not a public school, a private school that was being run by Kaplan University. And they just got rid of him.
SM (01:56:27):
As a young person though, you are just seeing these things for the first time. Your parents are one thing. But you were a young person, a child, or a teenager. What were you thinking about America? And this is of course post World War II America.
ES (01:56:45):
Yeah. I grew up in this sort of liberal ADA, Americans for Democratic Action. My family worked in favor of Stevenson; my mother worked for the Democratic Party in what was the Republican suburb at that time. And the rumor was always that you had to vote Republican in order to get your garbage collected, which was not true. But anyhow, so I grew up with a fairly, what would you say, liberal set of values, which I think I still retain.
SM (01:57:34):
Where would you go to high school?
ES (01:57:36):
I went to Cheltenham High School.
SM (01:57:38):
Outside Philly?
ES (01:57:39):
Outside Philadelphia.
SM (01:57:40):
Colleen McCue, it is a small world again. Colleen McCue was the president of our contemporary issues committee as a senior. She is in Scotland right now, is from that high school. Colleen McCue.
ES (01:57:51):
Sure. We had all kinds of people who went there. Benjamin Netanyahu went there after my time. Reggie Jackson went there.
SM (01:58:01):
Oh my God.
ES (01:58:03):
And it was a big public high school with a wide variety of kids. It was fun. And then I went to Radcliffe. That is where I got my undergraduate. And I stayed to get my PhD at Harvard. And I was in European diplomatic history, I got my PhD in European diplomatic history. I wrote my thesis on the French debt to the United States after the First World War. It was really boring. I did not enjoy it. And I sort of did not want to go on in that field. And so, this is about the early 1970s. I finished my degree, I really did not know what I wanted to do. I was married. I had two children. We were living in Cambridge at the time. My then husband was teaching Chinese history at Brandeis. And I got a job teaching freshman composition at Harvard. The way it worked was, you did not have to be in English, but you had to be a good writer. And they assumed somehow it would rub off on the students. And you could teach your course as a mini course, almost a little seminar, as long as you assigned a lot of writing and worked on the writing. And so, I decided I would teach a course on the 1950s, because I had grown up then. And I was curious. So, I started teaching this course. This is the mid '70s. And I discovered that there was no good book on McCarthyism that I could assign my students. Nothing. No scholarship, no nothing. And so, after about a year of this, I decided, well, I did not know what I wanted to do, but I was really interested in McCarthyism. And I would write a book about it. And I had already written a Chinese cookbook of all things.
SM (02:00:28):
Oh my God.
ES (02:00:32):
Which is another piece of my life. And I had a literary agent, and I got a fellowship from the Radcliffe, what was then called the Bunting Institute of Radcliffe, for a year to work on this project on McCarthyism. And after a little while, it became very clear to me that this was a big project and that there was another person who was writing a general book of McCarthyism. And I was sort of advised by a whole bunch of people to narrow down my topic. So, I decided I made a choice. I realized I could either look at McCarthyism in one city or I could take an occupational group. And I decided since I was an academic, I might as well look at the academy. And so that is how I got into writing my first book about McCarthyism.
SM (02:01:32):
I think, if I can remember correctly, there is only two books that I can recall, because I have them, are the Buckley book he wrote on McCarthyism. That was out and then there was one Richard Reeves?
ES (02:01:46):
Yeah, which was the general of McCarthy himself.
SM (02:01:49):
I think Richard Rovere wrote a book.
ES (02:01:56):
Wrote a book in about 1956, and Reeves wrote a biography. And it is Thomas Reeves, I think.
SM (02:02:01):
Thomas Reeves. Yeah.
ES (02:02:02):
Right. But there was not a general study. The general study that was being written at the time is by a guy named David Caute, C-A-U-T-E, who was a Brit. Who actually, I had been in a graduate seminar with him many years ago. And his book was, it is not bad, but it did not do what I did. And so anyhow, I finished this book on McCarthyism and the university, mainly looking at dozens of archives of universities, interviewing a lot of people. And then decided that I would go back to my original project of looking at McCarthyism as a whole, because there still was not the kind of book that I thought should be written. And by that time, I had moved to New York and had remarried. And I had changed. I do not think you could do it these days. But in those days, I was able to switch from European history into American history. And at the time my McCarthy in the University book came out, I was able to get a teaching job at Yeshiva in American history. And I began to work on the sort of general study of McCarthyism. I published; I do not know if you have seen this little book for classroom use.
SM (02:03:42):
No, I have not seen that.
ES (02:03:49):
Let me show you.
SM (02:03:52):
What influence do you feel that McCarthyism period had on the boomer generation, that was really in elementary school at the time. But subconsciously many kids were watching that on black and white TV. I know I was one of them. I did not quite understand it. Oh, I think I have seen that, but I do not have it. Yeah, I have seen that.
ES (02:04:12):
Well, this is the one that it is used. It is what people assign in their classes. Because it is much smaller than the other book.
SM (02:04:25):
Wow. There is the gentleman to his right.
ES (02:04:29):
Yeah. And that was a lot of fun. That is just a bunch of documents with a sort of hundred-page overview.
SM (02:04:37):
Do you think that the McCarthyism had any effect on young boomers? Some of I have interviewed say that they were too young, but others subconsciously were seeing this fear that was happening in America at the same time. The fear of speaking up. And they were cognizant of what was going on in the South too. If you were watching the news about the Civil Rights movement and the courage of the Dr. King and others to stand up and speak.
ES (02:05:08):
Right. I mean, I think what happened was certainly when I was growing up, the left was completely marginalized. I mean, I just plain did not even know it existed. When I was at Radcliffe, there apparently was a socialist club, but it was made up of what were called Red Diaper babies. People whose parents had been pretty much in the Communist Party. And people who were outside of that very small left-wing world did not even know it existed.
SM (02:05:48):
Kind of like the young Americans for Freedom in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The young Americans for Freedom were a conservative group that was born by Buckley. But a lot of people, when they talk about the actors of (19)60s, they totally omit them or say very little about them.
ES (02:06:07):
But I think the civil rights movement really made a huge difference because it is the moment at which there is a massive movement for social reform. And that changed how people thought about political action. Before that, I do not think there was very much going on.
SM (02:06:36):
So deep down inside, if people were young enough, especially the early boomers born say in (19)46 that were maybe six and seven years old when McCarthyism was really rampant and he was popular, I guess, through (19)54 or whatever, he's well known in the news. That had any effect on these as they grew older and they wanted to speak up, like so many did on with all the movements that took place in the late (19)60s. And we are not going to be held back. We are going to speak our minds.
ES (02:07:05):
Well, I think the impact was not so much what happened, but what did not happen. There is a missing generation of activists. There is missing institutional connections to some kind of ongoing left-wing tradition, that was shattered by McCarthyism. And so, what you have in the '60s with many members of the new left is the sense that they have to begin all over again.
SM (02:07:42):
You were at two places, obviously, where there was activism. Harvard had a lot of activisms. I have interviewed a couple professors at Harvard Square.
ES (02:07:49):
I was not there then. What happened was during the height of the quote unquote, (19)60s, my then husband was teaching at Princeton, which was not a particularly active community. And I can recall go-
SM (02:08:03):
Right.
ES (02:08:03):
And I can recall, as a faculty wife of all things, going to the organizing meeting of the Princeton chapter of the Students for Democratic Society with my husband and I think one or two other faculty members, at which the faculty members told the students, "This is a student run organization. The faculty cannot do it for you. You have to do it." So, Princeton was not particularly active in that period.
SM (02:08:31):
Yeah. Well, Harvard Square is one of those historic moments. Did being around students though... when you were around your peers, how would you define them? At the colleges when you were there, when you were working on that doctorate, when you were working on that masters and undergrad?
ES (02:08:48):
Yeah. Well, for some weird reason, I had a very interesting group of gangs of friends. A number of them were Red Diaper Baby and were communist, very close friends, and we were... well actually, I was politically active in the early 1960, around (19)62, (19)63, (19)64. I was very active in the Northern Support group for the Student Non-violent Coordinator Committee. I was very active in helping, especially the Freedom Summer stuff in 1964. I was involved, although then something else happened and I could not remain involved. But then when we moved to Princeton, which we did in 1965, I was again active in Smith, and became for a very short time before it dissolved, I think I was head of the Princeton Francis Smith, or something like that.
SM (02:09:59):
Okay.
ES (02:10:10):
So, I was politically active, not... I did not go south, mainly because I was married, and I thought, "Wives should not go leave their husbands."
SM (02:10:15):
Yeah, and so many of the people that were in the Freedom Summer in (19)64, we all know about Berkeley and the free speech movement, Mario Savio, people like that, Tom Hayden and so forth. I know this is a very broad question, but when you think of the boomer generation, again... first off, I would like to know whether you like the term, number one, and whether you like terms defining generations? Because I have had individuals like Todd Gitlin that said, "If you mentioned the boomer generation one more time, this interview was over." Because he does not like these little compartmentalization’s of the greatest generation, the silent generation, the boomer generation, millennial, generation x, boomers. He does not like it.
ES (02:11:02):
Yeah.
SM (02:11:03):
And I have had quite a few that do not like it. But then some say, "Well, we got to have something."
ES (02:11:07):
Yeah, it is convenient. I am a historian. It's convenient. As long as you contextualize it and realize that you cannot put everybody in this slot, and you need to look at what was actually going on during that time and realize that there were always alternative voices.
SM (02:11:27):
Yeah, but if someone... say you were in a high school and you were in a 11th grade class, and somebody had the courage to ask a question. That is: what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of the boomer generation? How would you respond?
ES (02:11:46):
These were people who came of age in the 1960s, their demographic bulge, which is why they cut so much attention. Because there were so many more of them proportionally within the population, and these were people who were on American campuses at the time of the... I do a lot of higher education, so this is a period when there's enormous expansion of American higher education. An enormous push actually, to get people to go to graduate school. This is something that I talk about in my book about the lost soul, of the role of graduate students in a lot of the student movements as an in-between group. The other thing, which I did not talk about, but I always talk about when I am describing the political activities and social movements of the 1960s, is... I illustrated by describing my apartment that I got when I was a second-year graduate student at Harvard. I do not know if you know Cambridge at all.
SM (02:13:10):
Yeah, I have been up there. I have interviewed 11 people at Harvard.
ES (02:13:15):
Well, my apartment was on Bank Street, which was about maybe five blocks from Harvard Square, and it was very centrally located. It was very cheap. It was $65 a month. Now admittedly, I did not have central heating, but I had a kerosene heater, and my landlord put in a better heater because I might burn down the house if... I might have. The bathroom left nothing to be desired, like a sink. I had to brush my teeth in the kitchen. But other than that, it was fine. It was three rooms. Neighborhood was safe, even though it was pretty inexpensive as a student neighborhood, and I had a roommate. What this meant, if my rent cost me what under $40 a month, it meant that there was not on the people, my generation, the kind of economic pressure that are on people today.
SM (02:14:26):
To work.
ES (02:14:27):
To work. You could live, I had a fellowship from... that paid for everything. I did not have to teach, and you could live very, very truthfully. That allowed people not only the freedom at that moment to become politically active, but also everybody knew they could get a job. You could get a job without having a PhD. My husband was hired at Princeton without having finished his PhD. That was common.
SM (02:15:07):
Wow.
ES (02:15:08):
And so, nobody worried about their economic situation. People probably did, but it was not the way it is today. People were not graduating with huge debt, and that economic security, I think, allowed for much more political expression than you have today. I think that is really key, and it's not something that people talk about a lot.
SM (02:15:35):
Some people have even gone to the extreme, as a follow-up for what you just said. People who really have been around a while and are more activists historically and have experienced what you experienced, but now see that there are some really good students who care, but they do not have the time to do things like they did when they were young. They feel... it is almost as if there is a conspiracy out there to keep young people busy, so they cannot take the time to protest, to challenge, to be an activist like in the past because they have no time. One interesting point, when you study the millennial generation, which... because I am in higher ed too.
ES (02:16:17):
Yeah.
SM (02:16:17):
The millennials in the Irving Howe book, Howe-Strauss states that they are like the boomer generation with respect that they want to leave a legacy, but they want to leave a legacy after they are 40. Whereas boomers wanted to change the world immediately, and a lot of it has to do with getting the degree, working and not having the time, raising a family, and so forth. I am not sure if all that is true, but the thing is, today's young people to me deeply care. They just do not have the time to be involved in fighting for a lot of things they care about. You raised a real good point there. This is a follow-up too. Are there any characteristics that you feel define the generation? Any strengths or weaknesses of the boomers that you knew and lived with or talked?
ES (02:17:14):
Yeah, they are somewhat younger than I am. I do not think I could characterize like that...
SM (02:17:24):
70 million?
ES (02:17:25):
Yeah.
SM (02:17:26):
Yeah.
ES (02:17:26):
I do not think I could.
SM (02:17:29):
One of the things here that... today, the conservative, I will repeat that. I am going to read this part. How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation who blame many of the problems today on what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s? The attacks around the sexual revolution, worry, the drug culture, inter-spirituality as opposed to organized religion. The divorce rate, the beginning of the breakup, the American family, the divisiveness that we... so strong back then. No respect for law and order, violence, no respect for authority, and... lack of trust in leadership. Even some people have said the spending habits of the boomers, they were a materialistic generation. They spent, and that is one of the reasons why we are having the problems today. Individually, it is because, "I want it now and I am not going to wait for it." And then of course, overall, the challenge, the status quo, the tax on corporate influence, and group think, the concept of victimization, the welfare state mentality. These are all the things that conservatives attack the boomer generation, and particularly, the counterculture from the (19)60s and (19)70s.
ES (02:18:55):
Well, a lot of this is not... this is the period I teach, and what you see is certainly with regards to say, the chronicled sexual revolution. It was not a revolution. It was an evolution. It had been... sexual worries were changing, had been changing since the early 20th century. You were not seeing a quote unquote "revolution." What you were seeing was finally a realization of what actually was happening. I think the cultural changes, again, were things that would have happened, whether there was some conduct, quote unquote "(19)60s" or not. These changes in how people related, a greater informality, would have happened anyhow, and a lot of what conservatives’ attack, of course, is protests against things like the Vietnam War and white supremacy in the South, which were certainly not exactly the products of the boomer generation.
SM (02:20:12):
Oh, yes, definitely. You already mentioned earlier that one of the great qualities or developments that happened during the time when boomers were young is the expansion of higher education, and the increasing numbers of students who go to college, as opposed to even in the (19)50s. There was something going on. We know about the GI Bill after World War II and many came back, but certainly with the influx of new young people coming in, certainly acts as... but could you describe the state of higher education in America, just as a person who has studied it in the following periods? We are looking at 65 years now. Boomers have been alive now 65 years, the oldest one, and every single day, I hear that there are something like 13,500 people turning 65 who are boomers. Every day for the next God knows how many years. So, when you look at 1946 to 1960 in higher education, what comes to your mind?
ES (02:21:17):
Well, there is this period of really massive expansion, and a democratization of higher education. It really... before the second World War, it was very much an elite phenomenon. After the Second World War, it becomes essentially the badge of middle-class status. You get an expansion, especially in the public sector, not just at flagship universities like University of Michigan, but the creation of a much broader second tier of institutions. So, for example, I am looking at Pennsylvania, where I grew up. In the 1950s, there were all these state teachers’ colleges. Westchester...
SM (02:22:10):
Cortland. That was where I grew up, Cortland State teacher's house.
ES (02:22:11):
Sure.
SM (02:22:11):
Yeah.
ES (02:22:16):
And they all begin to expand. They become part of bigger systems, and so you are getting more and more access to higher education from people who have very different backgrounds. It's no longer something that these quotes unquote "elites," now... the higher education system is still very stratified. There are these elite institutions that the top end go attend, to community colleges and stuff, but the access to some kind of higher education really just grew enormously. As for people like myself who were in graduate school and young faculty members, what they were experiencing was this incredible job market. I have been working, doing research. I did some for the most recent, but I am going to do more on academic freedom in the 1960s, and... faculty activism, not...
SM (02:23:18):
Oh wow.
ES (02:23:20):
...student activism, and I discovered a left-wing faculty group that saw itself as the faculty twin... were the alumni movement of SPS, essentially.
SM (02:23:34):
You wrote... you mentioned that briefly, that...
ES (02:23:36):
Yes, yes.
SM (02:23:36):
...of the 25 at one school, 24 of them were let go.
ES (02:23:41):
Yes. Yeah.
SM (02:23:41):
I remember that.
ES (02:23:42):
Called the new University Conflict, and they had this newsletter. At one point, they were going to set up a job service, job referral banks for their members. What they said was, "Come to us for the next job from which you would be fired." But the fact was, most of the people who did lose their jobs for political reasons during this period were able to find other academic jobs if they wanted them. Some people just dropped out, but because of this enormous expansion... again, it is the fact of much more economic security really enabled people to be more politically active.
SM (02:24:31):
When you look at that period then, after Kennedy came into power 1961 to say 1980, when Ronald Reagan... how would you define that? There is so much.... how would you define that higher education during that time?
ES (02:24:44):
Well, that is still the period of expansion. The moment at which the expansion stops, it is pretty clear. It is about (19)74, (19)75.
SM (02:24:54):
Right.
ES (02:24:55):
The oil shocks, the moment. It is a crisis in... I think we have to say American world capitalism, and that is the moment at which you begin to see cut back in the amount of state funding of higher education. It is this period where you begin to see a concerted attack on the quote unquote "liberal" academy from a bunch of conservative events, begin to fund right-wing foundations and writers, and start what we see as I think a really major attack on what is considered a liberal academy.
SM (02:25:45):
And that is really from late (19)70s through today, really.
ES (02:25:48):
Yes. Yes.
SM (02:25:49):
And Ronald Reagan played a key part in that because... but he had a passion...
ES (02:25:55):
He began it in California. He ran against Berkeley in 1966.
SM (02:25:58):
Yes. Yeah. That is an unbelievable development, and that he used the same package when he ran for President too, law and order. Law and order, and against the welfare state.
ES (02:26:10):
Yep.
SM (02:26:11):
Remember, those are the two things. You have written three books. Oh, you have written more than three books, but I am not making a comment on this book because I did not know about this one. But the three books, the one on... the No Ivory Tower, the book on McCarthyism, and your most recent one.
ES (02:26:28):
Yeah.
SM (02:26:28):
Higher Education, the Lost Soul. In a few words, what was the basic premise of all three of those books? And secondly, when you look at the three major premises of these books, how did the main information of that premise affect the boomer generation?
ES (02:26:52):
Well, the main thing I am concerned about is free speech. Freedom of expression, intellectual freedom, and ability to express dissent about major political issues. I think that is what I have been looking at in one way or another in all of my work. At the moment, I am working on yet another book on a study of American political repression. Very general from, as we say, the Puritans to the Patriot Act, and I am working with a political scientist who's a political theoretician, because when I was working on all of these books, I had assumed that political theorists had written something about political repression. Seems to be a rather important subject, and yet it turns out there is very little, which was surprising. Anyhow, I have a college who is a political theorist at Brooklyn College, teaches at CUNY, and he is interested in exactly the same things I am, so we're working on this together. But it is all about essentially the suppression of defense and looking at how it operates. Stuart, is there anything I can get you?
Stuart (02:28:32):
No, I am fine.
ES (02:28:32):
Okay.
SM (02:28:37):
Yeah. When we talk about freedom of speech, the first thing that always comes to my mind, and I do not think it is being taught very well in higher education today in graduate programs, is the influence that free speech movement had on the history of higher education, in my opinion. I went to Ohio State in the early (19)70s, and we talked about it all the time. We have talked about legal aspects when police can come on campus, when they cannot come on campus and everything. But the one thing that always strikes me about the free speech movement is people try to separate it, saying that it was the early... the middle (19)60s as opposed to the other protests...
ES (02:29:14):
Oh, right.
SM (02:29:15):
...when it was, in reality, the precursor, what was to come. Secondly, Mario Savio, whether you like him or not, his words will forever... I had been on Berkeley many times. I took part-time courses there too. The fact is that the thing that stands out in that whole movement was the fact that ideas, ideas is what the university is all about, not corporate control. So a lot of the battles that took place during that (19)64, (19)65 period, and many of the battles in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s on even my campus at SUNY Binghamton, was that we wanted a campus of ideas and not departments, grants, fundraising, and everything linked toward corporate control of what can happen on university campus. What is upsetting to me today is it seems like we have forgotten everything about the free speech movement.
ES (02:30:14):
Yeah.
SM (02:30:14):
We know it is history. But I interviewed Arthur Chickering who wrote Education and Identity, and I also interviewed Alexander Astin, the great scholar in California.
ES (02:30:24):
Yeah.
SM (02:30:24):
After each interview, I said, "What is your biggest disappointment, as people who have lived in higher education, through your whole career?" And they both said corporate control of the university, and they are teaching PhD students in higher ed.
ES (02:30:36):
Yeah.
SM (02:30:37):
Just your thoughts on the free speech movement, how important it was, and...
ES (02:30:42):
Well, it is emphasized the significance of higher education institutions, of higher education, as those places where people not only can debate ideas freely, but also given, and in the contemporary world, as you know, the media is increasingly shrinking and becoming... speaking more to niches and not to a general public. We do not have that general debate out there at any high level. It is all sound bites, and so the universities are really the last place where you can deal with complicated ideas, where you can deal with complexity, where things are not just black or white, but are much more nuanced. And of course, that is something that I think we want to... talk about a corporate conspiracy, but clearly, we are seeing a dumbing down of public debate, public discourse. Universities are really the last place that is pushing back against that, but as they are being starved for funds, as there are all these pressures from the outside, against tenured radicals, you that...
SM (02:32:22):
Oh, yeah.
ES (02:32:22):
...whole business, that universities are increasingly on the defensive. Their administrations are scrambling for money. They're totally focused on the bottom line, and what that means, of course, is that they have to go out and get students. It creates a very competitive atmosphere on campuses. It is competitive for faculty, competitive for students, and the value of a desire to learn, a desire to find things out, the desire to find things out for oneself is a sideline in this need for getting ahead. For what you see now is an increasing vocationalization of higher ed, where people are essentially majoring in occupational therapy and not liberal arts, which I think are increasingly necessary for the creation of an informed citizenry. What we are losing is that informed citizenry that can think about reality, rather than something that is been filtered through advertising and celebrities, and this whole sound bite culture.
SM (02:33:55):
I have this theory, and I like your opinion on that, and that is based on my experiences of 30 years in higher ed at four different universities, Jefferson being one, high University of Ohio State, and Westchester University. That is that it seems the term activism is a term that universities are deathly afraid of. They like the term volunteerism. Everybody is volunteering. In my studies, I read that volunteerism is at its peak when it's usually a conservative era, but certainly the Peace Corps was about volunteerism. Volunteers and service to America was the same thing, and if you go to any university campus, now just about 95 percent of students are found in some volunteer activity. Some required, and some do it on their own and join clubs. But when you talk about activism, I have always believed that activism is a step beyond volunteerism. Volunteerism is... might be twice a week or once a week, but 24/7 is what activism is. It is a state of mind, is a state of being, and it's about speaking up. It is about challenging. It is about seeing injustice and trying to right it. I can go on and on here.
ES (02:35:14):
Yeah.
SM (02:35:14):
Do you believe that universities today, whether it be the university you teach at, or Berkeley, or SUNY Binghamton in my alma mater, or Ohio State, my other alma maters... are they afraid of the word activism?
ES (02:35:28):
Oh, sure. What we are seeing, of course... one way of looking at it is this kind of, what do they call it? Civic service or something, that is being pushed...
SM (02:35:41):
Oh, yes.
ES (02:35:41):
...on many campuses. It is very much about individualism. It is individual action. Whereas what you are talking about is really a collective action that is directed against systemic problems. In other words, it is not enough for individuals who work in food kitchen, or food banks. Maybe we should change the laws and create a different kind of welfare system, so that there is a big difference here between individual acts of charity and something that is really challenging the system at a much deeper level.
SM (02:36:30):
I agree. We had an activist series at Westchester who was growing. We had Tom Hayden, we had Daniel Berrigan. We had... it was really growing, and we read Howard Zinn's thin book, and we had faculty members coming in with students reading it together. We were asked to stop it because it was... I do not know why, but we were asked to stop it, and even though it was becoming a success, so something was happening beyond the areas that I know that were threatening someone.
ES (02:37:00):
Yeah. When was this?
SM (02:37:03):
This was recently at my university within the last 10 years.
ES (02:37:08):
Yeah. Oh, that is interesting.
SM (02:37:08):
And it might have been as much against me as it was against what we were doing, because we had a small group of students and they did not think it was enough people that were involved. It was a long story. But when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, and I also interviewed David Horowitz, they had mentioned to me that... they said that the radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling today's universities. But then I asked them, "Let us be more specific here, because I know a lot of conservatives who are running universities today." They said, "Well, what we're really saying is that they are running. They control the curriculum." And do you believe that? Phyllis Schlafly is very strong on this. She said the radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling the curriculum of the university.
ES (02:37:53):
No, no. What happened is that in the (19)60s, universities expanded. We have already talked about that, grow up in whole new groups of people, and universities began to address issues that they had not addressed before because there was pressure from their own students. But it's not because the students were radical, it is because the students were African-American and Hispanic, and felt somewhat excluded. The administration, much more than the faculty themselves, are the ones who created some of these changes. One group I studied, I looked at for my book on the Lost Soul of Higher Education, were people who started women's studies programs. Well, these women may have been radical, but the pressure to expand women's studies came from their students, and the administrators were very, very happy to accommodate them to create women's studies programs. Why? Because students were taking them. They were popular, and that feeds this bottom line mentality. If you can attract a lot of students, your administration likes you.
SM (02:39:30):
Yes, definitely. That is one of the things. Would you say that when you look at the era of the boomer generation and the accomplishments that came out of the period, some people say they were negatives, like I mentioned earlier. Their opinions, but that one of the greatest accomplishments that ever came out of this period was the fact that the women's studies, the black studies, the Native American studies, Asian American studies, all the different studies programs that were all criticized in one way or another at the beginning, but have become very legitimate and important parts of the University of today, just...
ES (02:40:01):
Well, yeah, I think so. I mean...
SM (02:40:02):
Just ...
ES (02:40:02):
Well, yeah, I think so. I mean, also one of the big changes that we are seeing in curriculum, and my school, which is a very conservative school, to put it mildly, has just implemented some curricular reforms, much of it having to do with the introduction of non-Western studies, of looking at the rest of the world, which is absolutely crucial. That is not being propelled by (19)60s radicals, it is being propelled by the changes out there in [inaudible] society.
SM (02:40:37):
Yeah. I remember when Henry Cisneros spoke at the NAFA conference about maybe 12 years ago, former mayor of San Antonio. He said, "We have been preaching a long time in higher education about preparing our students for the global world." We are in the technology world here, so it is a little different, but even in the (19)60s, and even then, you can communicate faster than you could in the (19)50s. So basically, is not that what it is all about? We need to prepare students for the global world that we are facing. And that is when we talk about Muslim studies and understanding Islam, it is preparing our students to understand the cultures of the world, the people they are going to live with, the people they are going to be work with, and the people who are going to be their bosses. That is what Henry Cisneros was talking, said, "You need to prepare for the future, not be afraid of the future." And that was his presentation, do not fear the future. Prepare for the future. I get emotional on this. This is a very important topic. Well, when did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end?
ES (02:41:47):
Oh boy. I teach a course on the (19)60s, so I would devote at least one class to that. It really varies. I think, you can always say, "Well, let us take the election of Kennedy," but a lot of stuff began earlier, certainly the Civil rights movement is building up from what a civil rights historian called the long civil rights movement from the Second World War on. From the other hand, you can say, "Well, the escalation of the Vietnam War in 1964, (19)65 may have kind of created the more raucous part of the (19)60s." Certainly with regard to say women's issues, it is really not till the, again, sort of the mid-(19)60s that women become much more self-conscious. Betty Freidan, Feminist Mystique is published in 1963. When does it end? And again, I think you have to look at sort of the mid-(19)70s, the oil shock, end of the Vietnam War.
SM (02:43:17):
Was there a watershed moment that stands out above everything else?
ES (02:43:23):
Moments. No one single one I think
SM (02:43:28):
Some people will believe that we are still, well because of the culture wars, (19)60s never ended because of the battles that are ongoing and continue. If you go to the Vietnam Memorial, you see if any of them have still got their problems with those who are in the anti-war movement. And that is just a small segment. But you see the battle within the university that you write so brilliantly about to the two words that stand out is the concept of truth, which was the Western civilization, the truth of Aristotle and Plato and so forth. And then relevance.
ES (02:44:07):
Oh yes.
SM (02:44:08):
Which is, it has got to be relevant to me. Well, what about, we are Western civilization is we got to prepare you as a liberal person. So those are all part of the ongoings. I think we're doing okay timely. Any other thoughts on ...
ES (02:44:27):
Well, I think the country has turned so far to the right since the 1970s that his talk about being under [inaudible] of the (19)60s is just fantasy. But we are living in a very conservative moment in which things that were taken for granted in the (19)60s are deemed totally unrealistic like the fact that the government might be able to do some good and create valuable social programs.
SM (02:45:13):
Yes.
ES (02:45:13):
Nope. That is ...
SM (02:45:14):
The one thing I wanted to ask you because you bring it up in the book, is the fact that the university was, again, Mario Savio said that the purpose of the university is about ideas. So, when the conservative [inaudible], whether it be Mr. Pipes, who many people on our campus cannot stand, they always bring him up. Something about him rubs people the wrong way. Irving Crystal, that group of people. Okay, what am I trying to say here?
ES (02:45:49):
About these cultural conservatives?
SM (02:45:51):
Yeah, the cultural conservatives. I was trying to get to a point here about ... They talk about the thing that we talk about. If truth ... If Savio says that it is about ideas and Dr. Pipe says it is something about truth, what is the difference? Because there are different truths. So, Pipe has a problem with different truths. You raise this in your book.
ES (02:46:22):
Okay. Well, what is weird is that to a certain extent, these people who are bemoaning the loss of that kind of sense of a centeredness and a common culture, which is a common "elite" culture, I often have a particular sympathy for them. Because one of the big fights that I see, and that I think one of the big problems within universities is not so much the content of general education courses, but the fact that, what is it now, I think over 60 percent of all students are there not getting any exposure to it. They are taking occupational therapy, they are taking hotel management, that are not getting exposure to anything that is giving them an ability to think critically about their own lives and about their own culture and their own country. And so rather, the people who are concerned about the denial of absolute truth and how humanism becomes relativist and-and all that, are not dealing with the real problem. And I think they probably do not really care that 70 percent of all college students are studying hotel management because they are elitist. They are only thinking about the top tier of upper class and upper middle-class students who are making it into these highly selective elite schools. They are the students who are going to Williams who are going to Stanford and Harvard and University of Michigan maybe. And the ones who are going to Westchester University, they do not care about. So, I think it is very much a class issue, actually-
SM (02:48:37):
Yeah, access to higher education is one of the greatest accomplishments that I have seen in my lifetime. And to see criticism of affirmative action or multiculturalism and diversity, not only with African Americans, but Latinos and women and gay and lesbian students and transgender, Asian students and Native American, you name it, I cannot understand why people are critical of that. And to be openly blatant about the fact that wanting to go back to the way it was when white America, white middle class America, was basically was the college students of the era just boggles my mind. And that is kind of where we are today.
ES (02:49:22):
Yeah. Well, we are talking about class warfare.
SM (02:49:27):
Right, what Dr. King talked about. We got 30 more minutes. I got one more here. One of the things I wanted to mention too, you probably talk about this in your class, is the generation gap. There was that historic, oh, that is historic, that Life Magazine cover, which I have framed, it was in my office for many years, of the young student that was in blue with his father pointing fingers at him and one eye, and he is pointing fingers back at his dad in the other eye. And it is basically talking about the generation gap between parents of the World War II generation and their kids over culture, over war, a lot of other things. Did you experience that a lot in your own family, number one? And did you see it amongst your peers on college campuses when you were there?
ES (02:50:16):
No.
SM (02:50:16):
And I bring the generation gap up because of the fact that in 1984, there was a book that came out called The Wounded Generation, and there was a symposium made up of veterans like Phil Caputo, Jack Wheeler, Jim Webb, who is now a senator, Bobby Mueller, and James Stahls. And the purpose of the meeting was the fact that Webb brought up, he said that we all think of the boomer generation as a service-oriented generation because of Kennedy's ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The Peace Corps and giving back. But Mr. Webb said it's anything but. The 60s generation was not about service because if it was about service, they would have gone and served their nation in the Vietnam War. And he said, "So it is as much about the generation gap between parents and their kids, but it is also between the generation itself, those who served and those who did not." What are your thoughts on the generation gap and the intrageneration gap?
ES (02:51:25):
[inaudible]. There is a wonderful book about the people who serve in Vietnam called the Working-Class War. Do you know it?
SM (02:51:33):
[inaudible]
ES (02:51:35):
Christian Appy, A-P-P-Y.
SM (02:51:36):
Okay.
ES (02:51:37):
Wonderful book. And I teach Vietnam and I usually assign it. And basically, the military draft, because of the [inaudible] students [inaudible], meant that the people who were drafted or who volunteered in order to escape the draft came from working class backgrounds, mainly inner-city kids, rural kids. It is the same today. Disproportionately. And middle-class white kids did not serve. Very, very few. I mean, I knew some when I was a graduate student, but there were very few. And so, it is really a class issue here. That is what we are talking about. There were some upper-class kids, John Kerry comes to mind.
SM (02:52:43):
Oh yes.
ES (02:52:44):
Who did, but that is the exception.
SM (02:52:52):
Jim Webb, I almost had an interview with him before he became senator and now it is impossible we can get through to him, but he is very vocal on a lot of subjects. He is responsible for the three-man statute being there because a lot of people did not want it there, including very big Vietnam vets. But is that very strong language that he is using, saying that he condemns the entire generation of, if they are labeled, that service-oriented generation because they did not serve in Vietnam?
ES (02:53:20):
No, it's those of us who opposed the war felt that by working in the anti-war movement, we were doing our service.
SM (02:53:30):
See that that is an important point too that is come up, that some anti-war people have believed that they were veterans too of the war, but in a different way. And when I mentioned that to Vietnam veterans, some of them laugh it off. They said they did not serve in Vietnam.
ES (02:53:46):
No, they did not. But I do not think it is the same thing, but that what they were doing was what they felt was best for the country. And I feel very strongly, I mean, I think Vietnam was absolutely crucial for anybody who lived through the (19)60s, and it was an immoral, terrible war. And whatever anybody could do to stop it, I think was justified.
SM (02:54:19):
What did the universities learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s that they have carried into today? I know that we had new leadership at the top of that university and that many of the presidents of that era have died off. But what did they learn from that period and what have they forgot?
ES (02:54:41):
Well, I think actually ... I think what happened was not so much as they learned things. I think that what happened was by the end of the (19)60s, beginning of the (19)70s, all of a sudden, they are confronted with unprecedented financial issues and they immediately switched to a different mode. When we talk about the corporatization of the American university, what we're really talking about is the fact that from the early (19)70s on, college and university administrations are essentially concerned with financial issues. And that they are doing whatever they can to raise money, to have good relationships with state legislatures, to help their faculty get grants. You have, for example, in 1980, the passage of the Bayh-Dole Amendment, which allows universities to actually profit from the research, the federally funded research that their faculty members have been carrying out. And you get more and more academic administrators behaving not as intellectual leaders or public intellectuals, but as fundraisers.
SM (02:56:28):
That is one of the reasons why I left the university.
ES (02:56:28):
Yeah. And that is-
SM (02:56:28):
Refused to be a fundraiser and link educational programs like the [inaudible] America Conference to Money. I mean, I refuse.
ES (02:56:40):
Yeah, well-
SM (02:56:40):
I knew my time was up.
ES (02:56:41):
Yeah.
SM (02:56:43):
So, you raise a very important point here.
ES (02:56:47):
So, I think whatever concerns they may have had student activism or anything, that was of secondary importance. And they begin to identify with the institution as an institution rather than with the institution as some kind of educational entity or a place for intellectual discourse or for any kind of research other than research that can be measured either in money or in some sort of terms of prestige. The US News and World Report absolutely undermined higher education in that respect.
SM (02:57:30):
It is interesting because the university has been really doing this assessment thing. You got to prove that what you do has value to students. And I would say that we would get instant responses back from students who had been involved in the program, but you cannot assess the importance of a speaker, a forum, a conference on a student immediately. It is something that could impact you years from now. They want instant satisfaction and instant assessment. And I say, you cannot do that in student life. You cannot. You can get your data, but it is just not going to happen. And it's just like, it is amazing. An assessment is everything now, as you well know. Prove it has value. And if you do not prove it immediately, then maybe we will cut it. Would you say that the university is really the main battleground now in America with the respect of the culture wars?
ES (02:58:30):
Yes.
SM (02:58:30):
And maybe this is what frustrates the conservatives more than anything else is they have not been able to get control of it.
ES (02:58:39):
Yes. I think that it is also happening of course, and in the schools as well, the No Child Left Behind Act has been absolutely disastrous with respect to force, again, it is data driven, so they measure what they can measure rather than what might have some intrinsic importance, but cannot be quantified. And so, you have got schools all over the country teaching to the test rather than actually helping students learn. It is not very useful. It is certainly diverting attention, money, and quality education is not occurring.
SM (02:59:34):
You bring up also that the think tanks that have really developed since the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, the Heritage Foundation, groups like that, are basically, because I know I have interviewed quite a few of them, and a couple of them are my friends. I have interviewed Michael Barone and people like that, Marvin Olasky. But the question I want to bring up here is many that went into these think tanks felt that they could not survive in a university, that the liberal university was ostracizing conservative faculty members so for them to truly get their voice, they had to leave the university and join. And of course, the Oland Foundation was the one you talk about to fund them with lots of money to get their point of view out there. This is part the culture wars, this is like-
ES (03:00:28):
Yes. If there were left wing foundations out there, I might leave too. But not because of that, but because who does not want to be well paid to write books? But it's only right wingers who are getting that kind of money.
SM (03:00:47):
And they are the main threat to the universities then today really.
ES (03:00:50):
The only person, I am sure there are others, but the only person I can think of who is sort of a prolific writer on the left who I guess left the university because I know she's got a [inaudible].
SM (03:01:05):
Oh yeah.
ES (03:01:06):
She is obviously supporting herself by her writing, but she is not in a think tank. There are not any.
SM (03:01:13):
Yeah. I interviewed Charles Murray and we all know him, and Christina Hoff Summers, people like that, Bruce Sidell, who fall into that group. Would you consider the Muslim students of today the Communists, the students who were labeled, or faculty members that were labeled as communists in the (19)50s, and African American students in the early late (19)50s and early (19)60s? I am saying we have a xenophobia in this country with, which is a fear of people who are different. And we love the status quo. And whenever it is threatened by any group trying to get access to what other people have, there is resistance. Would you say Muslim students are that way today?
ES (03:02:02):
Yeah, I think there is a kind of demonization that, especially since 9/11, has targeted Muslims and people from the Middle East, no question about it.
SM (03:02:15):
And you see that link between the McCarthy period too and the ostracizing those people who may have been labeled communists and then an African-American student.
ES (03:02:27):
Sure. You have a similar kind of scapegoating going on.
SM (03:02:34):
Well, I only got about six more questions here. Could I use your restroom?
ES (03:02:41):
Sure, yeah. I will show you where it is.
SM (03:02:50):
I have just a listing here, and I am not going to list all these things. I just wrote them out here. But what do you consider the major events in Boomer lives of ... What do you believe, when you teach the (19)60s, some of the major events that really shaped their lives from that period? I have specific events, I do not know if you want me to read them here or list them.
ES (03:03:16):
Well obviously, the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. I mean, I think those are the two key ones. And everything else sort of comes out of that, including the women's movement.
SM (03:03:35):
Right. Things that really ... I will read these real fast. Take maybe about five, well, maybe a minute, but I would certainly list McCarthyism in the (19)50s because I am talking about the things that really were historic events in the period of their lives. The Montgomery Bus Boycott in (19)56, Sputnik in (19)57, which was the thrust for education. I think Elvis Presley played a key role because of rock and roll music was the late (19)50s, and he was the precursor of the Beatles, obviously in 64. The election of John Kennedy, Eisenhower's famous statement about the military industrial complex, which there is a great movie out on it. Certainly, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, where we almost, boomers, we believed could have ended the world. Certainly, Kennedy assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin, Johnson withdraws from the presidency. Everything in 1968.
ES (03:04:30):
Yeah.
SM (03:04:31):
The assassinations, and the convention, and the trial. Barry Goldwater's rise, which at that time did not seem very big as he was destroyed in the election, but was the beginning of the Reagan period really. Emmy Lai, the bombing of Cambodia in 1970, and Kent State. And then I just had Woodstock in 69, and the Summer of Love in (19)67, the beatniks that I thought were important because of the fact they were anti-establishment, the communal movement, Watergate in (19)73, leaving Vietnam in (19)75. The Carter presidency was important because it was during this time that the rise of the religious right was happening even though he was a Democrat. And the-
ES (03:05:15):
Also, the oil shock.
SM (03:05:16):
Yes, the oil. I remember that.
ES (03:05:18):
I think that is a big thing. That is the moment at which this sort of belief in unlimited economic expansion comes to an end, that you come up against limits, including environmental limits and economic limits.
SM (03:05:34):
Well, that Mỹ Lai speech that he gave too, which he is definitely criticized for giving that, but it was really kind of truthful. And then certainly the Reagan election, Perestroika, the fall of communism, the Gulf War, Bill Clinton, Monica Lewinsky, those kinds of things. And then I add on here, historic events on the colleges, which what happened at Cornell that you so beautifully talk about in your book in (19)69, Jackson State in (19)70, Columbia in (19)69, Harvard Square, Wisconsin, a tragedy there. And then of course [inaudible] college, and San Francisco State, those are all kind of things that stood out amongst the boomers. That is for me, is that a good representation?
ES (03:06:19):
I think so. You have the free speech movement.
SM (03:06:20):
Yes. Yeah, I have that. Did not write it here, but it certainly is in there. And Freedom Summer too, definitely. As a scholar, writer, professor, author, and you were the head of AAUP for-
ES (03:06:34):
No, I was the editor of its magazine.
SM (03:06:37):
Okay. What has been the relationship between faculty and students since (19)46? I bring this up because it is not talked about very much. I went into higher education because I saw the lack of communication that was happening between students and college administrators. They did not trust them. Not one iota. And I was at Binghamton at the time. We trusted faculty, but then faculty were really having some hard times at Binghamton because they wanted to be out of the protests, but they could not be. I remember Dr. Mahaski, who had just come from Berkeley in our social department of Binghamton, he was challenged by the student leadership by saying, "You just graduated with a PhD in Berkeley. We want you over with us united against the recruiting on campus." And he said, "I am not going to do that. I have a job now. I have a little child raise. I am not going to do what I did at Berkeley. I got a job." And then the student had debated him right on the spot and challenged him and actually kicked him out of class. And I will never forget that. That was kind of what was happening. But we had faculty members in our residence hall that were always there for us who would be willing to talk with us about the issues of the day. So as a person who's been a scholar herself, what has been the historic relationship, not between administration and students, but between faculty and students? And specifically, the boomers when they were in college in the (19)60s and (19)70s.
(19) (03:08:14):
You're dealing there ... Oh, that is my husband. Hang on a sec.
SM (03:08:17):
Yep. Yeah, the relationship between students and faculty.
(19) (03:08:30):
All right. It varied on campuses. Younger faculty were often very close to students. And remember in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the faculty was very young. It's my generation who was lured into ... I mean, they literally threw money at us. Anybody who was a good student, they threw money at us. I did not even think about going to grad school. I was going to become a high school teacher. And I was nominated for a fellowship. And I said to myself, "If I get a fellowship, I will go to graduate school." But I got the fellowship, I had not even applied to graduate school. That would not happen today, to put it mildly. And so, there was just this sort of generation of very young faculty members who were involved in things like teach-ins, that was a big movement in the early days of the Vietnam War. My ex-husband was very much involved with that. He taught Chinese history and anybody who knew anything about Asia would get involved. So, there were faculty activists, they were very split, and I talk about that in my book, about whether they should express their activism the way the students did, participating in demonstrations and sit-ins, or whether they should do it through their intellectual work, through exploring black history or women's history. And I see myself and my work as very much my political work doing through my scholarship, looking at questions of dissent and regression in particular. Mainly because I think that is probably what I do better than anything else so that therefore, it's probably the most effective use of my time in energy.
SM (03:10:48):
My whole career has been about bringing students and faculty together. Because that was my job as [inaudible] program director, director of student programming. And I did it at every university I worked at. I loved to work with the faculty. In fact, faculty never thought of me as an administrator. And that was a positive. They said, "We feel that you are part of us." And that got me in a little trouble at times when I had to take stands that were either faculty stands or administrative stands. And I was really more with the faculty than I was with the administration. But one other thing, a lot of the young people of the late (19)60s, early (19)70s were involved in encounter. And encounter was a very important part of one's graduate education. And you even bring up in your book how a lot of the classes in that period in the (19)70s where the students would sit in the round and they would be able to express their feelings on things. That is what the graduate education was like at Ohio State University in the (19)70s, was encounter. And that is been heavily criticized too, because it was forcing you to speak your mind and you could be vulnerable and you needed support and then sometimes you could be on your own. And so, it was a great lesson for me. And so, it was a great lesson for me. But they do not do that today.
ES (03:12:05):
No.
SM (03:12:05):
It is not part of the training. And I think we were closer to faculty members back then than we are now. Would you agree on that?
ES (03:12:14):
Well, I think what happened was that beginning in the mid (19)70s, beginning a little earlier, in some fields, they stopped hiring full-time faculty members so that there's a lost cohort of academics, of people in their... Really, from their (19)40s and (19)50s, early (19)60s. My generation, many of them have retired, many of my friends have retired. And so, the age difference because of this lost generation, I think, is a problem. I mean, when I was in graduate school, I would not say that, but some of the people who I was closest to, faculty members, were maybe 10 years older than me.
SM (03:13:19):
Yeah.
ES (03:13:19):
That is not a huge difference. But when they are 30 years older, they are another generation.
SM (03:13:24):
And that was my challenge. But I had a little philosophy of never lose the kid in you from Roy Campanella. And my graduate advisor was a PhD at 29 at Ohio State. Dr. Johnson came from the University of Illinois. How important were the students in ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion? A lot of people believe they played an important role. Some say it was just a minor role.
(19) (03:13:51):
They played a role. I mean, can we quantify how important it was? Certainly, they brought a lot of publicity and attention to the anti-war cause, but there were a lot of other people. Basically, for a lot of that period, I was just a faculty wife. I was not really active as an academic. A lot of people like me, ordinary citizens, plus of course you have to count the Vietnamese they beat. They were crucial, I think. And needed the Americans.
SM (03:14:31):
Yeah. When you teach your course on Vietnam, and what is the reason why we lost the war, what is the reason we lost that war?
ES (03:14:40):
Because we could not win it. The way that the American government defined victory was an independent non-communist South Vietnam. That did not exist. And so, the only way we could win the war was not to lose it. And the only way that we could not lose it, was by maintaining a massive American military presence. And that turned out to be politically impossible. So that was that.
SM (03:15:16):
And that is what the Vietnam Syndrome really comes in too, because now when George Bush says the Vietnam Syndrome is over, I mean, really? And still influences foreign policy and certainly over where we are in Afghanistan today. Do faculty today overall support the university as a vehicle for uplifting all races? This was a quality that really came about during the '60s and '70s. Where are the faculty today, liberal and conservative, with respect to, what is the purpose of a university?
ES (03:15:51):
Oh man, that is a tough one. To begin with, 70 percent of the faculty are what we call contingent faculty members.
SM (03:15:59):
Adjuncts.
ES (03:16:00):
They are adjuncts or people on short term contracts who have no chance of tenure. There is only 30 percent and shrinking of tenured and tenured track faculty members. So, I mean, that is absolute most important fact to know about higher education today, which is that the, what we would call the casualization of the faculty. And so, when you talk about faculty, you are talking about people who are living usually very desperate lives. Or else a lot of faculty, especially in more vocationally oriented programs, are people whose primary identification is as a practitioner in some other field than higher education. In other words, they are teaching part-time, but they are basically accountants who teach one course in accounting at a community college. They are counted as faculty, but they do not probably identify themselves as faculty. And that is very important. And so, when you are talking about core faculty members, that is not the main group now teaching in American universities. So, for traditional faculty members, how do they view the mission of the university? They are under enormous pressure, especially if they do not have tenure yet to produce, because it is such a competitive atmosphere. In my field, you cannot... At most schools now, you have to have a book. It is crazy.
SM (03:17:53):
Before you are even hired. Yeah.
ES (03:17:56):
In some cases, yeah. But at least for tenure, you need a book. And the pressure is for people now in literary studies, and Modern Language Association did a survey of tenure practices and claimed that people needed not just a book, but sufficient progress on a second book to get tenure. And so, the bar keeps rising. Same thing for scientists. They have to get grants. And it is increasingly more difficult to get grants than it used to be. In the good old days in the (19)60s, they threw money at people. Now, even very well-known scientists often cannot get their research funded. And so, the pressures are on people to get grants to work in areas that are going to be popular, that are going to be... And for scientists and engineers, often, these are fields in which there is more corporate influence, biomedical stuff, electronic things like that.
SM (03:19:21):
One of the questions I have asked everyone from day one when I interviewed Senator McCarthy, the late Senator McCarthy, and that is, do you feel that the boomer generation has an issue with healing like the civil war generation that went to his grave, not truly healed? I bring this question up because in 1995, I took a group of 14 students in our leadership on the road program to meet Senator Edmund Muskie. I knew Senator Nelson. And so, we were able... We met 14 former United States senators. And we were very lucky because Senator Muskie just gotten out of the hospital, actually died four months later. But he gave us two hours. And one of the questions the students came up with is, they were not alive in 1968, but they had seen the video and they wanted to know... They saw the divisions, the terrible divisions of America, assassinations, police and young people fighting each other, riots in the street, burnings and so forth. And they wanted to know if the generation, their parents' generation were going to go to their graves, not truly healed because of the tremendous divisions of the time. And they asked him this question. And is healing an issue in this generation? Do you feel that is an important issue when you teach the (19)60s? Because the Vietnam memorial was... The inscriber wrote, "To heal a nation," which was trying to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. But I think he wanted to also try to heal the nation in some way through the wall that heals.
ES (03:20:55):
Yeah. It is an interesting question. It is not one I have looked at, mainly because when I teach the (19)60s, by the end of the semester, I am rushing through it. So, I never get to any final summing up and looking at that kind of issue. So, I am not really sure. Sometimes, certainly it is in the rhetoric of some of these people who are still blaming (19)60s radicals for anything that went wrong in the country. But I do not know whether, at a sort of grassroots level, it is still a large issue or not. I have a feeling that the economic issues that began to surface after (19)74 and the sort of transformation of the economy and the squeeze on the middle class has really... People are not thinking in terms of the (19)60s anymore. But I could be wrong. I do not know.
SM (03:21:55):
Yeah. Muskie answered in a way the students were not even expecting. He basically said that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race. And he had just seen the Ken Burns series on TV, and he had come on in the hospital and he gave a lecture on all the 600,000 who had died in the Civil War. And almost an entire generation. He did not even mention the '60s. And here's a man who was the vice-presidential candidate in Chicago. Students looked at each other and were shocked, but that is where he was coming from. The issue of race has not healed.
ES (03:22:27):
No, it has not.
SM (03:22:30):
And I think I raised the question because when you go to the Gettysburg Battlefield, you will see a statue there. The last person alive who served in the war. And he died in 1924, something like that. And then when you go to the Vietnam Memorial, I interviewed Jan Scruggs. He thinks there are many that were anti-war that come to that wall with their kids and regret that they did not serve because it was the watershed event of the era. And those who may have been against the war would not change feelings. But many of the boomer generation had brought their families there and some of their kids that said, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" So that kind of... Would you say also the lack of trust is in an important quality within the boomer generation? They just were not a trusting generation. They all saw all these leaders lie to them.
ES (03:23:20):
Yeah. Well, sure. There was an enormous amount of hypocrisy and deceit. I think there always has been. Franklin Roosevelt lied.
SM (03:23:34):
Yeah. Eisenhower lied on you too. Sure.
ES (03:23:37):
I mean, Roosevelt essentially pushed the United States towards the Second World War. We supported that war. So, the fact that he was doing a lot of covert stuff, military stuff, we overlooked because it was the good war. But that is what politicians do.
SM (03:24:00):
Would you say this lack of trust though, is a positive quality? Because in political science 101 class, you are always taught that you need to challenge your government, never take anything for granted. And so, it is actually a good quality, not a bad quality.
ES (03:24:13):
I think so. But the problem is that it is very hard for people to get information. What we are seeing is a lot of government secrecy, an enormous amount of government secrecy. It is really increased exponentially. One of the things I am looking at in my current work.
SM (03:24:35):
And down to my final, actually, three questions.
ES (03:24:38):
Okay, because I am going to have to leave you.
SM (03:24:39):
Could you define the term counter culture in your own words?
ES (03:24:45):
Well, it is a very specific moment in American life in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, mainly of young people who are sort of sloughing off a kind of easy, materialistic set of values that had been fairly prevalent in American society. And seeking, through drugs and music, through communal living, through political activism, a whole kind of new... the word lifestyle, but that is really what we are talking about, a new set of values.
SM (03:25:28):
Could you define culture wars?
ES (03:25:31):
Oh yeah. That is something that... I ordinarily do not believe in conspiracies, but I have got this document from the early (19)70s that was written by the future Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell, who was advising-
SM (03:25:50):
Oh yes. That was from the book. Yeah.
ES (03:25:51):
.... advising a friend in the Chamber of Commerce up there, how to deal with quote unquote " liberal academics" who were supposedly poisoning their students against the corporate sector. And what you see is a well-funded, very well-funded attack on whatever social movements and ideas came out of the (19)60s.
SM (03:26:23):
What are your thoughts on these two books? Because Clark Kerr's Uses of the University was a classic book, and he was about the free speech movement. And I think Ernie Boyers, The College and the Undergraduate Years is just a treasure. He was in the [inaudible], and I had a chance to meet him and briefly know him. Your thoughts on those two scholars and the meanings of their work?
ES (03:26:49):
Poor Clark Kerr, again, apparently during the free speech movement, and I have read his memoirs, I have been on programs with him and stuff. He is very evasive. He is a labor negotiator. He believes you get everybody together in a room and things will work out. And I think he was completely blindsided by how rigid the sort of conservative from the board, among the regents were, and how ideological the students were. Really just could not deal with it. He was an end of ideology person.
SM (03:27:48):
Oh, yeah. Daniel Bell, I interviewed him. I saw him before he died.
ES (03:27:53):
Yeah. And Boyer's stuff, I do not know as well. I mean, I know what stuff he did on the quote unquote "scholarship of teaching," and clearly, he wanted to emphasize research at the undergraduate level, which is part of this competitive trust within the American Academy.
SM (03:28:21):
Would you say that the best books that were written were the boomers at the period, late (19)60s, early (19)70s were books like The Culture of... Well, actually, Culture of Narcissism was the late (19)70s. The End of Ideology was Daniel Bell's book in the early (19)60s. And then you had Theodore Roszak’s book, the Making of a Counter Culture, and then you had The Greening of America by Charles Wright. Those are all major pieces to me in over a 20-year period of critique of the generation. And do you agree? Do you think they are all valid works?
ES (03:29:05):
I never read most of them. It only actually was interesting only when I got into doing this most recent book, did I read Bloom.
SM (03:29:12):
Oh, yes.
ES (03:29:13):
Which was the book. It was a bestseller. I owned it, but I have never read it. So, I read it and discovered all kinds of things in there. But a lot of these iconic books, I have a feeling, do not get read.
SM (03:29:30):
I interviewed Daniel Bell, who was not well, and of course he's passed away. And I was up at Harvard. It was a thunderstorm. And then there is this old house right near the Theological seminary up there.
ES (03:29:42):
Yeah, I know.
SM (03:29:44):
And I am in that area there. And his wife is upstairs, a machine keeping her alive, and he has got a maid working for him. And he is not well. But when I asked that question about Roszak and Wright. Garbage, garbage, they were not intellects. And then I said, "What did you think of Kenneth Keniston's Youth and Dissent?" That was a good book. So, it was interesting in talking... Who were the most influential scholars, presidents, teachers who shaped the university during the time that boomers were, or any time after World War II?
ES (03:30:26):
Yeah. Oh, Marcuse, obviously. And then I think, and I am not sure I could even name them all, it is the people who began doing stuff or in Vietnam who began looking at American foreign policy.
SM (03:30:48):
Chomsky? Yeah.
ES (03:30:50):
Yeah, but I was doing history, so I am sort of thinking of the revisionist scholars.
SM (03:30:59):
Oh yeah.
ES (03:30:59):
I am thinking of people, Herb Gutman, and people who were doing social history, very important in my field. EP Thompson, the British historian, was crucial. Looking at working class history. It may be different in different fields, I am thinking, not just in terms of the general culture, but in terms of the intellectual history of specific fields.
SM (03:31:32):
And this is kind of a two-part question. Who were the winners in the (19)60s and (19)70s in higher ed or even in society? And who were the losers? And secondly, who were the heroes of the boomers? Were there winners and losers in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
ES (03:31:48):
I was going to say that is not the kind of a question that I would have asked or that I think I can give an answer to. Who were the losers? Lyndon Johnson? Richard Nixon? But I do not know that anybody won.
SM (03:32:10):
And the heroes?
ES (03:32:13):
Oh, people like King, obviously. Bob Moses or Smith, Mario Savio. I think to a certain extent, Bobby Kennedy, who was a very charismatic figure. I mean, what always struck me about Bobby Kennedy was how much he was able to change.
SM (03:32:43):
Well, yeah, he was...
ES (03:32:45):
From this sort of tough guy enforcer in his early career to somebody who really was reaching out. Fannie Lou Hamer. It is sort of the same pantheon of figures, mainly in the civil rights movement, which I think, at least for me, was really just so exemplary in so many ways.
SM (03:33:17):
I do have one more question and that is, did the boomers become the most unique generation in history? Did they change the world for the better as they said they were going to do when they were young? And I know that I actually met with some of my former peers at my undergraduate school, and they still feel the way they did back in the (19)60s. They feel that the generation did a lot to make the world better. But look at the word we are living in. So, just your thoughts. And the boomer generation is still, they are 65 at the oldest now, and they're going into all senior citizens, period. So, they still got-
ES (03:33:57):
They are still out there.
SM (03:33:58):
Yeah, they are still out there. But for the first 65 years, what can you say about them?
ES (03:34:03):
Well...
SM (03:34:05):
Did they change the world for the better overall?
ES (03:34:08):
George W. Bush did not. I think it is mixed. Very mixed.
SM (03:34:15):
Yeah. I know that the only two boomer presidents have been Clinton and Bush, but actually Obama was a boomer, but he was only two.
ES (03:34:25):
Yeah.
SM (03:34:25):
Finally, the last thing, I am done, but I wanted to read this and if you had any comment, just comment.
ES (03:34:31):
Okay.
SM (03:34:31):
And finally, we know only about 5 percent of the 17 million became activists in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Some use the statistic that most young people were not active or linked to causes as a negative. However, this still adds up to many millions. And my question is this, for those who were active, whether be conservatives or liberals, do you feel they were very different in a positive way with respect to caring about equality, justice, freedom of speech, respect for differences, wanting to make the world a better place to live? Or was it all about, as some of their critics say, a generation that was selfish, not selfless. They avoided the draft in any way possible. Plus wanted instant satisfaction via demands due to their being brought up in the (19)50s as spoiled kids who were given everything by their depression era parents. This applies to white middle class students, but also eventually to the African American students and students who lived in poverty because they were also making demands, but for different reasons.
ES (03:35:52):
Well, you know what? My answer would be that clearly these people, there were real social problems. There were real... The Vietnam War was a major problem, and people were motivated to take action for very idealistic reasons. It did not turn out well in every case, but I do not think these people are self-interested. It is a mixture because people, they are human.
SM (03:36:20):
Was there any question I did not ask you, you thought I was going to?
ES (03:36:22):
No, that was very good.
SM (03:36:23):
Great. Any final comments?
ES (03:36:23):
Nope. Thank you very much.
SM (03:36:23):
We can [inaudible] more pictures.
ES (03:36:23):
Okay.
SM (03:36:30):
And then if you could sign three books too.
ES (03:36:31):
Okay.
SM (03:36:31):
This one's all marked up.
ES (03:36:35):
Okay. I will be right back.
SM (03:36:37):
Okay.
ES (03:36:37):
Okay. Tomorrow I will be...
SM (03:36:37):
Do you want me to go ahead?
ES (03:36:37):
Yeah [inaudible].
SM (03:36:44):
[inaudible] Okay. I will do that.
(End of Interview)
Description
2 Microcassettes
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Interview with Dr. Ellen Schrecker
Description
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia.</span>
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Schrecker, Ellen ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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College teachers; United States—History—1945-1953; Tamiment Library; Yeshiva University; Schrecker, Ellen--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-05-19
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.111a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.111b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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217:19
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c744ac236e81e9f9548fce1f078fbe08.jpg
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60b7bb560ba33744a31a118b1a5f539c.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
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Date of Interview
2008-07-12
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Thomas J. Scanlon
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
Thomas J. Scanlon, Benchmark's founder, and the president was among the first young Americans to serve overseas in President John F. Kennedy's Peace Corps. He published a memoir of his Peace Corps experiences in Chile entitled <em>Waiting for the Snow</em>. Scanlon graduated magna cum laude from Notre Dame. He has a Master's degree in Philosophy from the University of Toronto and a Master's degree in Public Law and Government from Columbia University.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Roosevelt Era; Baby boom generation; Red Scare; Activism; Vietnam War; Universal Health Care; Senator Edmund Muskies; Slavery; Beat generation; John Coltrane; Lester Young; Jazz; Neal Cassidy; Silent Generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Roosevelt Era; Baby boom generation; Red Scare; Activism; Vietnam War; Universal Health Care; Senator Edmund Muskie; Slavery; Beat generation; John Coltrane; Lester Young; Jazz; Neal Cassady; Silent Generation.</span>
Duration
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56:07
Subject LCSH
Peace Corps (U.S.); Scanlon, Thomas J.--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Tom Scanlon
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Scanlon, Thomas J. ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Peace Corps (U.S.); Scanlon, Thomas J.--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Thomas J. Scanlon, Benchmark's founder, and the president was among the first young Americans to serve overseas in President John F. Kennedy's Peace Corps. He published a memoir of his Peace Corps experiences in Chile entitled <em>Waiting for the Snow</em>. Scanlon graduated magna cum laude from Notre Dame. He has a Master's degree in Philosophy from the University of Toronto and a Master's degree in Public Law and Government from Columbia University.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2008-07-12
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.110
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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56:07
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-08-06
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Sally L. Satel
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Sally Satel is a practicing psychiatrist, author and lecturer at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Satel focuses on mental health policy as well as political trends in medicine. She earned a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University, a Master's degree from the University of Chicago and an MD degree from Brown University. She completed her residency in psychiatry at Yale University. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16382457],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,1447960],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Sally Satel is a practicing psychiatrist, author, and lecturer at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Satel focuses on mental health policy as well as political trends in medicine. She earned a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University, a Master's degree from the University of Chicago and an MD degree from Brown University. She completed her residency in psychiatry at Yale University. </span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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1 Microcassette
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Audio
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69:42
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Hippies; Bill Clinton; George Will; Mad Men(TV Show); Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Middle class; Generation X; Activism; Young Americans for Freedom; Nineteen sixties."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Hippies; Bill Clinton; George Will; Mad Men (TV Show); Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Middle class; Generation X; Activism; Young Americans for Freedom; Nineteen sixties.</span>
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Psychiatrists; Authors; Lecturers; Yale University. School of Medicine; Satel, Sally L.--Interviews
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Interview with Dr. Sally Satel
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Satel, Sally L. ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Psychiatrists; Authors; Lecturers; Yale University. School of Medicine; Satel, Sally L.--Interviews
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Dr. Sally Satel is a practicing psychiatrist, author, and lecturer at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Satel focuses on mental health policy as well as political trends in medicine. She earned a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University, a Master's degree from the University of Chicago and an MD degree from Brown University. She completed her residency in psychiatry at Yale University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2009-08-06
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.109
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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69:42
-
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-05-18
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Al Santoli, 1949-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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147:37
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Albert Santoli
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 18 May 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing one, two, testing. Start it right now.
Al (00:00:08):
Let me go to your email as well.
SM (00:00:11):
Okay. Did you get my email address for [inaudible]-
Al (00:00:22):
I Did. Thank you very much.
SM (00:00:26):
Yeah. And do not forget, Paul Yuppies at Merrill Lynch in New York City.
Al (00:00:30):
Should I just... I have never met him before. Who else... Who is he close to? What board?
SM (00:00:36):
Well, he is close to Jan Scruggs.
Al (00:00:40):
Okay.
SM (00:00:41):
For the Vietnam Memorial. But Paul is... He is one of the top people at Merrill Lynch in New York City. He has had a lot of different positions because they had to go through... You know some people lost their jobs there, but he has been very successful and has moved on to different roles. And I am not sure how financially stable they are, but he is a big supporter of Vietnam veterans. And he has spoken at the wall and he has contributed, I believe, to the Women's Memorial and to Jan Scruggs' Vietnam Memorial through the Merrill Lynch. So he would be a great contact.
Al (00:01:20):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:01:22):
So, alright I do not know if you are ready to go.
Al (00:01:25):
Just about. I have one more sentence here on this message that I have to send, so I can clear the deck on this one and then I am a hundred percent with you.
SM (00:01:34):
Okay. [inaudible]. Okay. We are going right with the questions that I sent you and-
Al (00:01:40):
Now those are a lots of questions. I was thinking of, maybe streamline it. Like the stuff of, what do I think about these different decades? I do not see that that is really... You might have a reason for that, very specific reason for that. The theme of your book. I do not know that I have that much to say about it. I think that there is other things there that, probably, I can address and put some statements into that are going to be more meaningful.
SM (00:02:16):
Mm-hmm. Well, let us go right to number two then. How did the 1950s shape you?
Al (00:02:24):
Well, that is when I was born, I mean, in (19)49. So the (19)50s was my childhood. And I do not know, I think the people's characters are what they are and the (19)50s, people are people no matter when they are born. And I think that you can say that it was pre-high-tech.
SM (00:02:53):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:02:54):
But then again, I do not know how that influences people because even technology is a tool and it is about your, and your family is your family, and there has always been harmony and disharmony in families that affect people no matter who they are, rich or poor, and no matter when they were born. So that is why with those, I do not see them as being as relevant to me-
SM (00:03:17):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:03:17):
As some other things. But I never, I do not see it in those terms. I have never seen it in those terms. I have never seen... I have never really taken it seriously or seriously, I will put it this way, seriously considered the issue of baby boomers except that we were a very, very fortunate bunch of people to be born at a time when this country really had a lot of economic security and stability and that is really important. I think that in itself shaped people a certain way. But the kinds of people, they became either responsible or irresponsible that is about their character.
SM (00:04:07):
So you do not see, when we are talking the (19)50s and then the (19)60s and all these changes took place, would you see any difference between those two decades for people of your age?
Al (00:04:23):
No, and I think I judge people by who they are today, but all that matters to me is who people are. And you cannot really tell who somebody is going to become, but you can tell who somebody is. And I feel that a lot of people hide the issue of the (19)60s being this very high polluting time. But I have to tell you that I really do not think it was any more special and I think there were a lot of people who were fake idealists. Who when push came to shove and it was their term to be responsible, completely dropped the ball. I think the people that grew up in the 1930s and were shaped by World War II in the (19)40s had a lot more character development and a lot more character than this group of the 1950s. I say the 1950s as being a bunch of phonies. They are a bunch of spoiled brats by and large. And I think adversity makes people stronger and everybody has adversity in their own lives. And they have, you know, all of us have obstacles that we have to overcome. But, I think that for people to say this, I do not think World War II was the best generation. I do not think that Vietnam was the best generation. I do not think the people today, just because they are high-tech savvy, are the best generation. I just tend to think people are people no matter when they are born.
SM (00:06:11):
When you were in the service, what were your thoughts on your peers who really were trying to get out of serving? And there were many in college, but some outside of college too, and those who protested the war. What were your thoughts on them when you were in Vietnam and when you came home?
Al (00:06:29):
Well, of course when you are in the war, you do not appreciate it because they helped prolong the war because it gave the other side, and rightly so, that was always the target. If you look at the Bratislava conference and the Havana conferences that were met by the Russians and the Cuban and the Vietnamese to whip up the... And Vietnam learned that from what happened with France during the French period, the Communist always knew this. The Soviet Communist always knew this because, how they did mass mobilization. So I felt that the anti-war movement did not stop the war. They prolonged the war. But when I came back from the war, I had friends that were protestors and friends that were in anti-war movement. I myself had very, very mixed feelings about what was going on in Vietnam. Not because I was against defeating the Communist, but because they were bad guys. And they proved that after 1975 in Spain, that I felt that our country had betrayed us and our lives did not mean anything. We are just a bunch of harm. And that itself was something that was very hurtful. And I think part of the reason that there were so many veterans that had such a rough homecoming and that is what my books were about.
SM (00:07:57):
Right.
Al (00:07:57):
It was trying to reconcile the fact that people that went were just, was not that Vietnam veterans were like any different than anybody else.
SM (00:08:06):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:08:07):
We have been tested in a way others had not been tested, uniquely, because of the circumstances. And there were some people that were destroyed by that. And then there were some people that became better people from it as well. And I am thinking if you look at the books, like everything we had, where I included pictures of people in the book. The purpose being of showing that everyone in this book could be your next door neighbor. And there were people in the book that had mixed feelings about being there while that they were there and when they came home. And it was a, I would say one thing, it was a very complex generation, that is for sure.
SM (00:08:53):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:08:53):
And there was definitely a division between those who would be drafted and those who had the ability to get out of the draft. For me, I was an enlistee. I chose it. I volunteered and I knew it would kill me or change me, which it did. And it almost did both because of the illness that I contacted from the blood transfusion, it could almost both have changed me and killed me. But I am passing, passing through that second stage of it, on the second stage being that even now as I am entering the last quadrant of my life. That a natural cycle that I have been able to use what I learned as a young soldier to help shape me. I think in a way that is constructive that I never would have had if I had not been invested in that manner.
SM (00:09:44):
Yeah, you...
Al (00:09:45):
I cannot say I am grateful to Lyndon Johnson, but I am grateful for the experience because for me personally, it made a better person of me. There were other people that it destroyed. There were people in the anti-war movement, some of whom became better people from it, some of whom became bigger jerks because of it, some of whom it destroyed. If you look at the people that were involved in things like the Weather Underground and other radical movement, if you take it to the extreme.
SM (00:10:17):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:10:17):
But my personal feeling is that people have a core character, and that character can either be augmented or diminished depending upon their life experience and how they deal with it. And also, I have to say, the mentors and the people that they have around them also makes me appreciate the work I am doing now, and accepting at the stage of my life that it is important for me to be a mentor. To pass on whatever I have learned constructively to the young ones who are going to be taking our place. And that in it for me, it includes very much centrally working in areas of conflict. So there is not many of us that can do that. Just because it is a very tough thing to do. Just like there are not so many people that can be cops and not so many people that can be firemen and not too many people that can be school teachers. All of us have a calling. And I feel that my wartime experience really helped bring that out of me in a constructive way.
SM (00:11:17):
You really answered question six and seven by responding because what did the Vietnam War teach you as a person, and what did the (19)60s, and (19)60s and (19)70s teach you as a person. So-
Al (00:11:28):
Yeah.
SM (00:11:29):
Those are, they are combined there. Certainly what you are doing now is very important. And with all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, have we-
Al (00:11:42):
So you are on question four now. Okay.
SM (00:11:43):
Yeah. We are on question four and then we are going to go to five. Well, all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and (19)70s, had we healed as a nation from those many divisions or will most members of this generation, boomers that is, be going to their graves not healing like many from the Civil War, who was documented, did not heal?
Al (00:12:04):
I think as a society, the Vietnam War was the symptom, it was not a cause. The Vietnam War was a product of who we were becoming as a nation. I think before this generation ends, this country will be tested like it never has been before. Not since World War II, because of economic reasons, because of conflicts that are just over the horizon. Because of the ramifications of what has been happening with Iraq and Afghanistan of the war on terror. We are still in the process of becoming, and it is going to be not easy. And for the coming generations, they are going to have to deal with a much more difficult world. And for America, we are not going to be having it as easy as we had it before. And I hope this brings out the best in people. And I hope it brings out leadership that we do not see in this country now, because people will be tested. And when you are tested heavily, the best and the worst comes out of people. I am just praying that in this country there is more good things than negative things. But in terms of all the stuff, civil rights, movement, everything that was part of that period, that was something our country was going through in evolution. And the Vietnam War was part of the evolution. The Vietnam War did not create that. It was part of it.
SM (00:13:32):
Do you think the boomers failed, the oldest boomers are now 63 and the youngest are 47. Do you think as a generation that oftentimes you...
Al (00:13:42):
A generation, I think as a generation, it is a failed generation because this generation had the ability to do really wonderful things in the world as a nation. And greed, selfishness, the spoiled brat side of it. The parents who had been through the Great Depression in World War II, who did not want their kids to have to go through that and tried to shelter them from it created a group of privileged. A group, I am talking about people that would be naturally in leadership positions or would be, or they went to the best schools. They were given the best opportunities in life that they lost, they lost their soul because they got so caught up in being, quote "the world's only superpower", the world only economic superpower, et cetera, et cetera. And what we came out of it was basically, what came out of it was Oliver Stone. In terms of the bitterness of someone who had been through prep school, been through Vietnam, had seen people on both sides of the fence and was pretty much pissed off at everybody. I do not feel pissed off like Oliver Stone does, but I think that we had a real opportunity that due to our own selfishness and greed, we have thrown away. I feel very bad about that because it is going to affect the next generations. But hopefully the next generations will rebound and find the kind of character that was missing in the, that post World War II generation.
SM (00:15:23):
When we talk about that post World War II generation, it is not just America. It is in different parts of the world too.
Al (00:15:29):
Oh heck yeah.
SM (00:15:29):
Because when we talk about 1968...
Al (00:15:32):
Active leadership everywhere.
SM (00:15:34):
England, Spain, Japan, Germany. There were protests in some of the Eastern European countries, student protests, and they were the same boomers, but they were from different countries. Do you see that it is part of the boomer generation worldwide?
Al (00:15:52):
I think the world was going through certain stages of evolution, end of the industrial age, beginning of the high-tech age, beginning of globalism. We might see globalism rise and fall within our own lifetime because ultimately people cannot be homogenized. International culture cannot be homogenized if they are, I think that all these high-tech companies thought they would create one global society of consumers that would all act like Pavlov's dogs, the same commercial.
SM (00:16:26):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:16:27):
And I think what is happening is we are seeing that there is a lot of resistance to that. Unfortunately, some of it is very violent resistance.
SM (00:16:35):
What we are seeing in Greece could happen in America, England. And maybe it is-
Al (00:16:40):
Oh heck yeah.
SM (00:16:40):
All part of it.
Al (00:16:41):
England is not as bad as shape financially as Greece and China might be worse off than both of them. So I mean, that is what I mean. These coming years are going to be not easy. And I am just hoping that we have people that can rise up in terms of leadership, good judgment, and have the ability to deal with this because it is, I think, going to become more and more unpredictably chaotic because overpopulation, food and water shortages. You can go right down the list of all the challenges that the world is facing right now. And God bless the coming generation because they are going to need it.
SM (00:17:26):
The only two boomer presidents we have had, of course, is George Bush and Bill Clinton. And President Obama tries to disassociate himself from this generation, but he is still a boomer because he was-
Al (00:17:39):
I agree with that.
SM (00:17:39):
-He was three years old when, in (19)61, is when he was born. Your thoughts on them as boomers, are they just typical examples of boomers, your thoughts on those leaders?
Al (00:17:56):
Well, they are a product of their time. They are a product of their generation because everyone is. So, for anyone to try to disassociate themselves, that political mumbo jumbo because you are a part of the historical period that you were born in and lived in, no matter who you are.
SM (00:18:18):
What has the wall done to heal the nation? I know what it is done to, I have been down there and I have seen what is it is done to vets. But I am not a vet, and so I cannot feel how you feel when you go there.
Al (00:18:30):
I think it is different things for different people. I was of the group of veteran who was against the wall being just attuned. I was one of the ones who spoke out and supported the position that Jim Webb and others took that there should be a flag and that there should be some kind of a statue that represents hope. And represents the perseverance, not only of the living, but even of those that sacrificed. So, I mean, my feeling was during the time of that wall that it was imperfect. It had, I think for a lot of people, it had a very positive result in terms of closure and in terms of mourning, in terms of trauma relief. I mean, for poor people who lost family members, et cetera. So in that regard, I cannot say anything negative about it. But I am very happy that the American flag, because it was pretty snotty of the person who built it. They called the American flag a mustache on their work of art. And she actually did.
SM (00:19:40):
Who is that?
Al (00:19:41):
On paper. Yeah, the architect who did it.
SM (00:19:44):
Maya Lin?
Al (00:19:45):
Yeah.
SM (00:19:45):
Yeah.
Al (00:19:46):
And she deserved to be put down for that. But bottom line is that regardless of the process, you have to look at what has been the result. And the result has been largely positive. So I have nothing negative to say about it. For me it is like, I do not know. I mean I am, I believe in moving on. Has everybody, have I been to the wall? Sure, everyone has. And but did it change my life. No, because my life has been in doing the work that I do.
SM (00:20:22):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:20:24):
That is how I reconciled the experience. But for people who have not had that opportunity to go right back into war zones and work in war zones and find, and utilize both the negative and the positive into something that you hope is beneficial, I think that wall has been an okay thing. But I am really happy that there is a flag. And I am really happy that there is a sculpture that represents the hope of the living and so also reminds people that you can die. You can say people died for nothing, but if you can learn something from the experience, something constructive and something that moves, helps to move a generation forward. And they did not die for nothing.
SM (00:21:10):
When, you were probably there in 1982 when it opened, what was that day like?
Al (00:21:15):
No, I did not go.
SM (00:21:16):
Oh, you did not go?
Al (00:21:17):
I really, really did not because I felt that I had done my part with getting the American flag, helping to get the American flight included. That was enough for me.
SM (00:21:26):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:21:27):
Because these people did not die in an abstract way. They were not in a car crash on some lonely road.
SM (00:21:32):
Right.
Al (00:21:32):
They died wearing the uniform of their country. And it was also part of still kind of my protest against the initial attitude of the people that made the wall. But I did not want to be there. I did not want to be there because I felt it was ridiculous that we had to do such a struggle to get the American flag there. But like I said, I have never publicly spoken out anything negative against it because I feel if it is doing a good thing, then more power to it.
SM (00:21:59):
I think you have already answered number eight, but when you think of the boomer generation, what are their strengths and weaknesses?
Al (00:22:05):
I think I have already.
SM (00:22:06):
Yeah. And you already said they are not unique. Do you like the term boomer? Is there another term that you think better defines a generation?
Al (00:22:14):
I have never really, I have never really used that. I just have always said post World War II. But if you look at the baby boomer generation, yeah, it is called the baby boomer generation. But I have never seen it that way. I just always looked at it as post World War II. And I do not know that there is another term that better defines it.
SM (00:22:36):
I think that...
Al (00:22:37):
Sure. Some historian someday will come up with something. Some historian will come up with a clever break.
SM (00:22:44):
I know that some say the Vietnam generation, others say the Woodstock generation or the protest generation, or the movement generation.
Al (00:22:52):
You have to think about how many people protested. It was not the majority.
SM (00:22:56):
Between 5 and 15 percent.
Al (00:22:59):
Yeah. It was not the majority. So it is the hype. Maybe it is the hype generation. It is the TV generation. How about that?
SM (00:23:05):
Hmm.
Al (00:23:06):
That is probably what that generation was, TV.
SM (00:23:10):
Yeah. That...
Al (00:23:11):
Came back from World War II. They had babies and they got TV.
SM (00:23:14):
That is right.
Al (00:23:15):
TV generation.
SM (00:23:17):
Now, one of the things is that this is definitely truthful, and you may agree with this, that this is a generation just does not trust anybody. And...
Al (00:23:26):
I would not say that. I would not say that they trust anybody more or less than the generation before them.
SM (00:23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:23:34):
And how also, why would not they trust anybody? Man. they were given everything.
SM (00:23:38):
Well, it is the lies that leaders told them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of China.
Al (00:23:43):
Oh my gosh. But think of the World War I guys coming back and doing the squatters things and then getting the shit beat out of them by MacArthur.
SM (00:23:51):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:23:51):
Was that? No, that was not MacArthur. Who beat them up?
SM (00:23:54):
What was the...
Al (00:23:55):
They had? Remember they had the squatters.
SM (00:23:58):
Yes.
Al (00:23:59):
They had, and the guys that all the World War I guys that came back and had nothing. And then-
SM (00:24:05):
Yes.
Al (00:24:05):
-Different parts of the country they set up squatters areas.
SM (00:24:08):
Mm-hmm.
Al (00:24:09):
And got the shit beat out of them by the US Army.
SM (00:24:13):
Yeah. They came to Washington and made a, did a major protest in Washington, I believe.
Al (00:24:17):
They probably got beat up pretty good there too.
SM (00:24:19):
Yeah. But forget...
Al (00:24:21):
Did you ever see that movie? What was it about, the heavyweight champion, the Light Heavyweight Champion.
SM (00:24:28):
Raging Bolt?
Al (00:24:29):
No-no-no. It was a very positive movie about the guy during the Great Depression. He had to go on welfare and cause his career was over and then he came back and won the championship.
SM (00:24:43):
Was that John Garfield?
Al (00:24:47):
No-no. The movie was made a few years ago.
SM (00:24:49):
Oh, I do not, do not know.
Al (00:24:51):
Oh, that was a good movie. But the thing is, part of that movie was about the veterans going and protesting and getting beaten up. Because the movie was really about the Great Depression and about how this guy just would not be defeated. And even when people thought his career was washed up, he came back as a light heavyweight, won the heavyweight championship, and I think he got beaten by Joe Louis. That is when he lost it. But he held onto it for three or four years and then he went on to build the Verrazano Bridge.
SM (00:25:23):
Oh, wow.
Al (00:25:23):
Construction company built the Verrazano Bridge.
SM (00:25:26):
Huh?
Al (00:25:28):
At the end. It was real, if you guys tend to see it, it is a good movie.
SM (00:25:29):
Yeah, I will...
Al (00:25:29):
Trillion actors is in it.
SM (00:25:33):
So this issue of trust, it is, trust is often defined by political science majors as a very positive quality within a group because that means the dissent is alive and well in the, in any government, in any country. So it is not having trust is oftentimes a positive thing, not a negative thing. Do you agree with that?
Al (00:25:55):
Questioning? I mean, questioning. Not taking things that pays value.
SM (00:25:59):
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Al (00:26:01):
I mean you could say that is part of it, but I think even kids, but kids today, well, I think the kids today get so caught up in testing. It is more impersonal. I think for, because it was TV rather than texting and rather than interactive games, violent interactive games, that it was much more personal. So I guess trust would be part of it. It seems that this generation, I am not going to generalize it, but I would say in terms of technology and the way technology affected them, it is more detached. And you could say that maybe the post-World War II generation was more attached.
SM (00:26:47):
Very good.
Al (00:26:47):
Because yeah. And also there were a lot of kids. I mean, there were a lot of kids born during that time so you always had a lot of kids to play with.
SM (00:26:56):
One thing is, I think I might have mentioned before is that there are more in the people in the millennial generation than there were in the boomer generation.
Al (00:27:04):
Oh, there are.
SM (00:27:05):
Yes. There are now close to 80 million millennials and there were 74 to seventy... You were never quite sure. 74 to 78 million boomers. Now millennials have passed them.
Al (00:27:18):
But you know what I think it is that there were less children per family because the larger number of kids happened. And then, you know what I mean? Families are not, I can tell you the neighborhood I grew up in with this neighborhood I live in now is not even close. And there is kids, but it is not like kids just coming popping out of the woodwork.
SM (00:27:41):
Right. What do these events mean to you? And you do not have to say, you already talked about the wall, so do not have to say anything about that. But yeah, real quick, what does Jackson State and Kent State mean to you? That tragedy in 1970?
Al (00:27:54):
Not very much. It really does not because that was not something that was part of my reality.
SM (00:28:02):
How about Watergate?
Al (00:28:04):
Yeah, I think Watergate affected everybody. That a president would be impeached. But if you look at stuff presidents have done then. I mean, Nixon was not so bad. There has been a lot worse guys that followed him.
SM (00:28:18):
How about Woodstock?
Al (00:28:20):
Woodstock was a party.
SM (00:28:23):
How about the hippies?
Al (00:28:28):
The hippies, the ones that did not get burned out? I mean, let us face it, the idealism lasted as long as long as it was convenient. And you did not have the responsibility of having to make a living. When you got up daddy's dollar. If you did not, if you were not dead from drug overdose.
SM (00:28:49):
How about the Yippies?
Al (00:28:51):
The Yippies. Ridiculous and troublemakers.
SM (00:28:53):
How about Vietnam veterans against the war, which was Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic and that group?
Al (00:28:59):
Well, I think more of Kovic and Barry Ramo and those guys. And I think we were very, those are the guys I knew best were like Kovic and Barry Ramo, and those guys. And I thought they were very, very determined and very sincere in what they were doing. And I have always liked them because I respected the fact that they were being true to their beliefs.
SM (00:29:30):
How about the counterculture itself, which was included dressed long hair, the drugs.
Al (00:29:35):
Contrary. I did not like the political part of those veterans against the war I despised. And I still feel that way about John Kerry. I feel Kerry is a big pony.
SM (00:29:45):
How about Bobby Muller? He is a very political person.
Al (00:29:50):
No comment.
SM (00:29:51):
Okay.
Al (00:29:51):
I will not comment on Bob Muller.
SM (00:29:55):
Okay. I respect the fact that he sacrificed for his country, but Bob is a politician that never made it as far as John Kerry.
Al (00:30:03):
A politician that never made it as far as John Kerry in that regard. But Kerry, I have always felt total opportunity.
SM (00:30:10):
How about Jan Scruggs and all his work with the Vietnam Memorial?
Al (00:30:13):
Well, I think he worked hard at, I think Jan came from kind of the humble background, and he had a dream and he had a vision and he worked hard for it.
SM (00:30:23):
And how about Lewis Puller?
Al (00:30:26):
I never knew him, so I cannot say.
SM (00:30:28):
I interviewed his wife yesterday.
Al (00:30:30):
No, I never met him. I knew people that knew him and really liked him a lot.
SM (00:30:34):
He was a really nice person. Very nice person. But just the term, the counterculture, you do not...
Al (00:30:41):
Well, I felt bad for him that he had so much angst inside of him. It was not directed to be negative to other people, but inside of him, he felt maybe it was from having a famous father. I mean, I have known other people that have had famous parents in different ways that it is hard for them because they always have to live up to something they feel that people are judging them with. And it is not an easy thing. And especially in the case of this where you have been through trauma, you have lost your physical mobility. And all I can say is God bless us all. I hope he has found peace.
SM (00:31:20):
The word counterculture, just what it stands for.
Al (00:31:26):
I think, yeah, there was truth to that word that people were seeking to find a counterculture within their own society, but it was not something that was very real. It was something that was a temporary fascination.
SM (00:31:41):
How about communes? There are still a couple successful communes in America today.
Al (00:31:49):
Yeah, the farm is a big one. Yeah, the farming communes, farming co-op. I mean, it is the spirit of the pioneers.
SM (00:31:55):
How about the Black Panthers and Black Power?
Al (00:32:01):
I do not know what kind of lasting effect they had. Black Power was different things, but when you choose violence as a means of political persuasion, it does not work. I would say the stuff that was done by those who were not violent had a lot more lasting effect.
SM (00:32:19):
How about My Lai?
Al (00:32:22):
My Lai was a tragic incident that was used to try to color an entire million people that served and most of whom served honorably and never committed any atrocities. I felt My Lai political. It was a political weapon that was used against the US government, regardless of the fact that the people that did it should have been prosecuted. There was no excuse for it, but I felt that it was used in a way that did far more harm than good. It did not bring back those who died. And it really helped the people who later massacred millions to be able to help. It has helped them to succeed. The same way I feel now that there is stuff happening in Iraq, it had the, what do you call the Abu Ghraib? What a horrible thing that was. And that empowered extremism.
SM (00:33:23):
Yeah. How do you deal with commentators? And I have read a couple books where things have been said is that we had prisoners of war, but there were no prisoners of war for the North Vietnamese or the Vietcong because the American soldiers handed them over to the South Vietnamese army, and they did them in. So there are no POWs. Is that the...
Al (00:33:46):
No, that was not the case. They had prisons full, and they let a lot of them go too. Yeah. No, that is not true. That is a...
SM (00:33:55):
That is a myth then.
Al (00:33:56):
That is a myth.
SM (00:33:57):
Well, that needs to be corrected.
Al (00:33:58):
There were times when people were shot on the spot in the same way there were Americans that were shot during the conflicts. And there were a lot of South Vietnamese, my goodness, that were just massacred by the communists. So I mean, it was a brutal civil war, but there were prisons full of war prisoners.
SM (00:34:19):
How about Tet?
Al (00:34:22):
Tet, I agree with the idea that it was a political defeat for the other side, but it was a military defeat. But it was a political victory because of the fact that Johnson and some of his generals believed that they had the war won. But in effect, if they had pursued it after that, maybe the war would have been over and it would have turned out very differently. But then again, going back to the reality of that time, that did not happen because that was the reality of the time. So that political defeat was part of the landscape.
SM (00:35:02):
What event in your youth had the greatest impact on your life at home and at war? You may have already mentioned it, just being in the service. Is there any one event that happened at home and then one...
Al (00:35:19):
No, I think it is a process. I really do believe it is a process. I mean, there are many events, but it is the evolution that you go through. That is the thing. It is the evolution that you go through. And as you get older, you realize it happens over a period of time. And some people might have the event, and I am sure there were some people that had an event that changed their life. But for a lot of us, it is a progression in a series of many events. And you cannot say which one was more important than another because they all had their importance or they all had their significance.
SM (00:36:00):
Why did the Vietnam War end in your view? And I think you have already responded the impact the college student protest had on ending the war, you felt it prolonged the war.
Al (00:36:08):
I mean, it was not because there was a lack of political will. But even beyond that, it is the same mistake they are making with Afghanistan right now. If you do not have a government that is credible, and you try to build a central government and you base everything you do on the credibility of a government that is not acceptable to its own people or at least a substantial number of its own people, then you are ultimately going to lose.
SM (00:36:41):
I have been listing three slogans from the period. These are quotes that I feel defined this post World War II generation. Number one, Malcolm X by any means necessary, symbolizing the more violent aspects of that period. Bobby Kennedy's quote where he says, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that are not and ask why not." And then symbolizing activism and fighting for injustice in a peaceful way, nonviolent protest. And then of course, the hippie kind of mentality, which was on the Peter Max posters, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which is kind of a hippie mentality. The only other people that have made comments is the quote, "We shall overcome." Symbolizing the Civil rights movement. And John Kennedy's "Ask, not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." Do those quotations kind of symbolize this generation, or are there some quotes or slogans you think symbolize it more?
Al (00:37:51):
I am not sure. I mean, all those quotes that you mentioned had their effect. In terms of dominant effect, I do not know. In terms of masses of people that were affected, I am not sure. Definitely TV and movies had effect. The music industry had its effect. And I think that there were a number of songs and slogans and whatever that had a, again, I look at things in terms of when you are talking about a generation, it is not just one thing, it is comprehensive. But the ones that you mentioned, yeah, I mean, they all had their impact on different people.
SM (00:38:33):
The last question is a lot of different people. And just to respond, it does not have to be any in depth response. It could be quick responses or you can say a few sentences more on people that had greater impact on you.
Al (00:38:46):
I would rather go through this list and rather than saying, no-no-no-no-no-no-no. I would say, okay, John Kennedy had an impact on everybody because he was the president. Bobby Kennedy was his little brother. Dwight Eisenhower represented stability. LBJ was president when I was in Vietnam, so I guess he had an impact. Martin Luther King affected everybody because the Civil Rights Movement. Ronald Reagan, made me believe that something constructive could happen in politics if you had people that believed in what they were doing. Gerald Ford, what I remember for him saying is, "Let us forget about those Vietnam veterans, they are just a bunch of troublemakers anyway." Richard Nixon, the whole Watergate thing had a negative impact on everybody. Abbie Hoffman Jerry Rubin to me were just a couple of rabble-rousers with the Jimmy Carter meant well and much better after being a president than while being a president. Let us see. Let us see. I think Woodward and Bernstein, for those of us that became writers, I mean that whole idea that you could be an investigative reporter, and you have to add Jack Anderson to that too, and some of those guys. The whole issue of the crusading investigative reporter, as a writer that affected, that affected a lot of us. Robert McNamara, I did not have any respect for him because he was a cold, intellectual, sending people to their death and really was before my time per se. Timothy Leary basically was a Pied Piper. A lot of people had drug overdoses because of him. The Weathermen were basically lost souls, and they did a lot of damage to people who were innocent and people that they killed, and they even killed themselves with bombs exploding and things. Earth Day, I think has probably more meaning now than then because of what is happening with the earth. Although the whole issue of preserving the Earth has always been a good one. Little Rock Nine, no-no. Free speech movement. Peace Corps always was seen as a very positive, and it was symbolizing the Kennedy era. Get out there, and do something for society. And international, do something for international society. Of course, all those television shows, in terms of lasting impact, I think Disney and a number of Disney programs have always had, for better or for worse. I mean, now I think it is more not just because they are older, because I have an eight-year-old daughter. And the Disney kids have not turned out so well. Where back in those days, and that is, I think, the biggest difference, where you had the image that Disney very carefully crafted of family values and kids and his actors and actresses not getting in trouble and all that stuff is very different than the Disney kids today. Not all of them, but at least some of them. The Cowboys Hopalong Cassidy. Well, the whole cowboy, I think the cowboy movies affected all of us because cowboy movies were morality plays. And you had this sense of right and wrong, the sense of almost like Puritan values in cowboy movies. At least in the series, there used to be TV series even up through Gunsmoke, I mean, there was always the sense of justice. And that if justice was not happening on a structured basis, that there would be those individuals that would ride in and save the day and create justice where justice did not exist. So I think Cowboy movies had a big impact, I think of all that, probably cowboy movies.
SM (00:43:17):
And certainly the Indian was always the bad guy too.
Al (00:43:22):
Well, Long Ranger had Tonto and Tonto was a good guy.
SM (00:43:25):
Let me change my tape. We are at 43 minutes.
Al (00:43:32):
And also Davy Crockett protected the Indian, brought them. If you remember Davy Crockett, Davy Crockett did not want to see the Indians treated unfairly. So anyway, I never had anything against Indians. And plus one of my favorite characters of all time was Hawk-eye of the Last of the Mohicans in the James Fenimore Cooper series. So anyway, for all of us, it is different. But for me, one of my, I always believed in you are with the underdog. And in the case of the frontier, the Natty Bumppo or Hawk-eye represented the sense of being close to the earth, being with the people that really knew it. And the British were the guys bumbling around and getting in all the trouble. The British and the French were the ones making all the trouble. Anyway, yeah. But that is for me.
SM (00:44:42):
And any of the other names or just did not want to comment on any more?
Al (00:44:45):
No, I mean, none of them really impacted me very much at all.
SM (00:44:48):
And you are not upset over the person like a Jane Fonda?
Al (00:44:54):
No. I mean, she is an actress. I think what she did sitting behind the North Vietnamese, I think the worst thing she did, I will put it this way. Yes, I will say a comment. The worst thing she did was attack Joan Baez, when Joan Baez was trying to call attention to the refugees and to the tragedies and the massacres that were happening after the war ended. I think what Jane Fonda did there was despicable. You can say during the war that she was naive, and she was angry at her father and all of this stuff. But what she did after the war when there were thousands and thousands of people dying, and she did not have the decency because she did not want to speak out and say she had backed the wrong people, that they turned out to be butchers. And at least I have always respected, and I do not see Joan Ba on your list here, but I have always respected Joan Baez because Joan Baez fervently pacifist, fervently against the war. But when she saw injustice, she spoke out. She is consistent. You respect the consistency and the integrity of one's belief. And so Joan Baez is to me, the other side of the universe from Jane Fondant and Tom Hayden.
SM (00:46:10):
Yeah. Okay. One last thing that I just want to add here. When Bill Clinton came to the wall in 1993, there was a lot of mixed feelings. And of course, Lewis Puller was one of the main reasons that Bill Clinton was there. He had been working with Jan Scruggs and they together invited Bill Clinton. And I remember we had a group of students that met with Lewis at the wall. And since the wall was about healing, they felt Bill Clinton should come, and Bill Clinton accepted. But there were some people that shouted at Bill Clinton. So what were your feelings about Bill Clinton coming to the vehicle?
Al (00:46:46):
I do not even remember that. I think they...
SM (00:46:49):
1993, he came and spoke.
Al (00:46:50):
Mut I understand why they would do that in terms of their feeling the need for the healing. And he went, Clinton was the president. I mean, let us face it. He was the President of the United States, and you have to respect the office. So I fully understand why they did that, and I do not think there was anything wrong in them inviting him there. Whether it healed anything, I do not know. But I think the intent of what they were doing was a good intention.
SM (00:47:18):
Last question, what is the lasting legacy once history books are written of this generation, the 74 to 78 million when the last of them have passed on, and historians are writing about the era, the period, and the emphasis they might place on the generation as a whole, knowing that the oldest is still, so...
Al (00:47:39):
[inaudible] to look back. And again, we do not know how this era is going to play out because the most challenging times are still ahead, and most of us will still be alive. And we will see what happens to what we created collectively over the next, I think the next decade between 2012 and 2020 is going to be one challenging period of time. And that will determine in many ways what happened since the end of World War II. If I have to think about this, I mean, if I have to do a projection, what I would say, because no matter how we come out of it, and I hope we come out of it intact as a nation, and I hope we come out of it with the least amount of suffering by not only our people, but other people in the world, that this was an opportunity. It was truly an experiment unknown before in human history in terms of the idea of democracy, the way the Tocqueville described it, and the way that it was created here in this country. And the unfortunate thing is that the people who had the most privilege, the generation that had the most privilege, was the least respectful of it and almost blew it. I hope they will say almost blew it. I hope they do not say and blew it.
SM (00:49:07):
I think most people that look at America, it is like looking at an individual person. They are constantly evolving, dealing with the pluses and minuses of life. So a lot of people believe that America will get through it just like they got through the war and the Depression and everything else. But what could be the worst case scenario if we did not get through this? Because it is the world here now. It is not just the United States.
Al (00:49:33):
And it is a much smaller world. It is a much greater population. And we are more dependent on a limited number of technologies for our wellbeing than we have ever been. And The oceans no longer protect us because of cyber warfare, space-based warfare, computer warfare, everything else, economic warfare, that we are very vulnerable. We are vulnerable in ways that people are now starting to realize that far more vulnerable than we have ever been before. Plus, we have no industry left. So say for instance, if we faced a horrendous attack and we lost a lot of our infrastructure, if we lost a lot of our ships at sea, we would not be able to rebuild them. If we lost a lot of our airplanes, there are hardly any factories left to build them. And that puts us really... This is unlike Pearl Harbor. This is unlike that period. Even during the Great Depression, we still had factories intact, and it was not so expensive to build them. That is nearly impossible now.
SM (00:50:33):
Yeah, I have read some. And I will close with this, that I have read some terrible scenarios. And that is that many Americans working today will lose their pensions, and there will be no social security and they will have nothing to live on.
Al (00:50:50):
Well, and...
SM (00:50:50):
And so a worst-case scenario is such that...
Al (00:50:57):
External and internal. External and internal, and that could be devastating to the survival of the society. So again, I am with you. We hope in the evolution that somehow, we come out of a tailspin but it is not going to be easy. It is going to require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of teamwork. And the unfortunate thing about the generation that we are discussing is that there is an awful lot of selfishness. There is an awful lot of lack of teamwork. And it is something that, one, I am not a pessimist, but I am a realist and I am putting my faith in the next generation. But I think that our generation has blown it. I think that if we are going to pull out of this, it is going to be the next generation that does it. And that is why the mentoring and everything else, whatever we can find that is of value, that can be passed on to the ones who will be taking over leadership in the next 10 to 15 to 20 years. They deserve the best teachers. And maybe sometimes the best teacher is things not going well, so that they have to learn to be strong, and they have to learn to be resourceful. So I am with you. Let us pray for it and let us work for it. We are going to go through some tough challenging times if we pass through it.
SM (00:52:22):
Yeah, I agree. I think that the generation that followed the boomers, the generation Xers, never really liked boomers, and were in constant conflict with them and are part of the problem themselves, along with the boomers. But the...
Al (00:52:38):
I am not talking about them because...
SM (00:52:40):
Millennials are the ones we are talking about now, and they are a good group.
Al (00:52:44):
Those are the ones I have to thrive I am having the faith in. And I tell you, with my interns, I have had over 120 interns from all over the world, from at least 20 different countries. And I like those kids a lot.
SM (00:52:58):
That is good.
Al (00:53:01):
Good. And I do have, again, there is going to be tremendous challenges coming, but I feel that there is that proof of life and a proof of courage and a proof of intelligence that I see in these kids that, I mean, I am hoping that American kids, I mean, because I do not just deal with American kids, I deal with kids from all over the world, but the American kids, they are just right there with them. So again, it will be a little bit different. The solutions, the problems are global. Solutions have to be global. But I hope that the strength of what comes from our traditions and our systems are right there in helping to lead the way.
SM (00:53:47):
Well, thanks a lot, Al. I really appreciate the time you have spent. I know you are very busy and I hope the...
Al (00:53:52):
I am making out the proposal, Steven. You know how that is. This is the time that during this month of the months of April and May, if you do not get those proposals in, you are sunk for the rest of the year.
SM (00:54:02):
Right. Well, I...
AS (00:54:08):
Society was fragmented that there became stereotypes. But it is the same thing. I mean, if you went to the other side of it and you say, okay, people that were anti-war, what are they doing today? You find a whole panorama of people doing different things, some successful, some not successful, some having triumphs, others having tragedies.
SM (00:54:33):
The first question I really wanted to ask you is the organization that you created right now that you are working with, I think it is unbelievable. And the more I have read about it and what you are trying to do, I think, yeah, personally, I think you should be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize because you are doing some unbelievable things. And I do not know if anybody has ever nominated you, but you are doing unbelievable things. How did your experience as a Vietnam veteran, how does that carry over and link with your current work, the organization that you created?
AS (00:55:12):
Well, it is a motivation for sure because on one hand you can say there is the element of all the work I did on the history and understanding, not just my own small experience in Vietnam, but in terms of the bigger picture. And if you look at the books like To Bear Any Burden and whatnot, it gets into the intercultural aspect of it and how important that is. And especially in a much more interconnected local community, it is probably the most significant dynamic because people of different cultures are almost forced to have to deal with each other. And that can create some things that are very positive, some things that are very negative because root cultures do not change. They can adjust, they can adapt. They really do not change. But there are commonalities in human nature that you could bet you could work with in a constructive and positive. And so when this whole 911 thing happened, at the time I was working in Congress. And I had worked Afghanistan for a number of years and understood somewhat the nature of what was creating that conflict of civilizations. It partly was the fact that there were people taking advantage of very decimated society where the Afghans were very vulnerable because their families, their tribes, their plan structures were torn apart. More than half of the population was outside of the country because of the refugee situation and then a lot more than the Civil War afterwards. But I felt that there were many valuable lessons that I had learned starting with my own war time experience, followed by all the history work that I did, followed by other humanitarian work I had done working with refugees and human rights and whatnot. But then the experience with the Afghans kind of prepared me for what was coming down the pike with a billion Muslims. Because if you think about it, a lot of people always look at Islam in the Middle East, which is really not that big of a population. The much bigger Muslim population is in south and East Asia between Pakistan, India, and then that route through the Malacca straits into the Philippines. That is where Indonesia has a population of Muslims equal to the size of the entire Middle East or larger than the entire Middle East. And in the Philippines, it is the longest standing civil war, which is based on... I mean, actually it is economics and land holding, but it has the veneer of a religious struggle that is been going on now that the Sri Lankan wars appears to be over. It is the longest running war in the world. And so my feeling was because I had also been monitoring the peace process in the Philippines at the same time I was working on Afghanistan, that in the Philippines you had a much better chance of helping create models that would have an international implication between people of different cultures and religions than there would be in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan was too polarized. And also the way the international community was going, it made it more polarized because billions of dollars was going into a non-existent central government in a tribal Balkanized society, divided society of tribes, clans, families. And there was no chance of success with that. And whereas in the Philippines, you had longstanding arm struggle, horrendous poverty, but you had coherent families, clans, and tribes, and you could work on that. And so what we will do, we will do interventions work. We will do...
AS (01:00:03):
What we will do, we will do interventions work, we will do humanitarian campaigns and whatnot in other places. I felt there had to be a place where we could create a model that would be something that would go against the brain of the tactic that was being done. At the time I started this, right after 9/11 in 2002, because I felt when you have movements that are based upon revenge vengeance, that if you put more revenge, vengeance, and violence into it, you are strengthening the negative elements and you cannot possibly succeed. And the way that you succeed, if you look at those pictures on the wall, same kids within six months, the difference between that classroom and that classroom, you just look in the eyes.
SM (01:00:55):
Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh.
AS (01:00:57):
Is that somebody cares that they are not alone.
SM (01:01:01):
Ah, agree. That smiling, it is very, it is like, "What are you doing here?" That kind of...
AS (01:01:11):
Because nobody cares. And to know that someone cares, not to do their work for them, but cares enough about them to want to see them be treated like human beings, makes it. And their own leaders will not do that. Even with their own leaders, there has to be a positive model showing. But it is not going to change unless the same way that a lot of these problems with these conflicts are generational. Over many generations, many generations of bad habits, I consider as bad human character habits. If you work with the young, you are also affecting the here and now. Because their parents, their grandparents are going to be happy the fact that their kids might have a future. They are still not going to break a lot of their habits because they are ingrained. But at least you calm it down to perform that you get the next generations can have a chance to develop better leadership and to develop more equitable societies. And that was always the plan. That it is long term. It is not something that you can do, go in, do a flash intervention, and introduce some computers, bring in a couple thousand sacks of rice, drinks, so much tea. That lasts for as long as the tea lasts or as long as the rice lasts. But if you can create a situation where people have both, and they have got the tools, they have got the educational tools, they have got the life of the tools, then they can build it. And that they can build it, they will defend it.
SM (01:02:55):
Interesting. My niece married a young man whose heritage is the Philippines. Marcelos, the Marcelos. They at Geneseo College and fell in love. And they just had their first child. He is the cutest little thing, little Ryan, he is six weeks old. But their family is rich. I am not talking about money. I am talking culture. I am talking about connections, family. I mean, they are all over the United States. I mean, it is a strong, strong family. Strong family. You mentioned that we did not learn the lessons of Vietnam. Who is we?
AS (01:03:36):
I think collectively as a society. But especially, people in leadership positions, whether it be in government or in the military. There is this idea that we do not have to learn history because we are number one. We are the strongest superpower and we make history. And there was like something, there was this kind of article, I do not know if you ever read this. But at one time in the Washington Post in an Outlook article, they were interviewing 20-somethings at the National Security Council. And the reporter asked, it was what Afghanistan asked, "Well, what do you think of Durand Line?" Because one of the problems there going to be the fact that the Pashtuns are divided. That will always be a factor. Going back to the British Raj, none of them knew what the Durand line was. And then the reporter then said, " Well, you guys ever take the time to read history?" And the response was, "Well, we do not have to read history because we are making history."
SM (01:04:40):
That is interesting. Yeah, because we had a person at our school that put the... Well, actually, an honor student from Great Valley High School. And we were in a meeting one day and she said, "When was the Vietnam War?" She thought it was before World War II. How did she get to be an honor student with that kind of a comment? So, the lack of history is...
AS (01:05:03):
But I think that with Vietnam, if you take it beyond into a broader context, into our development as a nation. After we achieved this role of being the strongest country in the West after World War II, Korea in the way was not really a test of that. It was like an extension of World War II, beginning of the Cold War. It was a bridge between World War II and the Cold War. But Vietnam was our first test as to how we were going to conduct ourselves as a leader of the West. And the ambivalence that we had within our own society to what direction we were going to take as a nation, whether we were going to be the international policemen, or guarantor of supremacy of Western societies picking up from the branch, not really colonizing, but kind of maintaining a kind of legacy. Even though you could say what we wanted with South Vietnam was where they would be independent, but they would be more leaning to the West. And whereas the North Vietnamese were, of course, leaning to the East with the Chinese and Russian influence. But it tested us in terms of what direction? We are the leader of the West now. And the Europeans cannot really compete with us. What direction do we take history? I think Vietnam represented that dichotomy that we felt as a nation, which is why there was the polarization. Why there was the, I mean, it was not just Vietnam. I think it was our society in general that now we are making history. We are no longer a part of an ongoing history. World War I was not our war.
SM (01:07:17):
Right.
AS (01:07:18):
The Industrial Revolution we were very much a part of. And it helped to shape us. A lot of inventions were made here that fueled the Industrial Revolution. But it is not the same thing as having your economy intact, your industry intact, after so much of Europe was destroyed in World War II. And we really had the leverage. Plus, television and other multimedia was largely coming out of the United States. So, we really were influencing and shaping culture on a very, very broad international, not just national, but international level. So I mean, I look at the Vietnam War as much more than just a little isolated thing. It was very much a part of our collective psyche and our development as a nation, as not an old nation, but an experiment.
SM (01:08:16):
How did you become who you were or are in terms of going to Vietnam? What was your high school experiences? Who were your role models, the people you looked up to that inspired you? And then what was that experience like in Vietnam? And what did you think about the students who were protesting the war back home?
AS (01:08:44):
Back then, I mean, it was more of an... You can look at it two ways. One of which is that there is a war going on. You serve your country. But also, the knowledge that it is going to change your life. And I think that for me, it was okay to do it because our country was at war. And I already had one of my friend's brothers die in the war and all of that. But also, it was something I knew would be help me to change me.
SM (01:09:24):
You knew that going in, you felt that going in?
AS (01:09:26):
Correct, that is why I signed up for the infantry. I wanted to be tested. And I knew it would be something profound, even though I did not know how it would be or how profound it would be. I knew that I would not be the same person. That it would draw out a lot, for better or for worse, draw it out early.
SM (01:09:48):
Did you go in right out of high school, or did you go to college?
AS (01:09:51):
Right out of high school. Graduated what, mid-June? And that would be six weeks later, I was released from training. So, it was a conscious choice.
SM (01:10:05):
How do you feel when... Vietnam, the two words that always seem to stir people, and particularly boomers, if you are in an audience with a group of boomers. And sometimes even younger people are upset because boomers have a tendency to oftentimes reflect on their life like nostalgia, whether it is good or bad. But I was leading into a question and I forgot what direction I was going here. My goodness. It will come back to me. I want you to talk a little bit more about your upbringing now. Because the Vietnam War, we talk about the people that went to war. So, many people were deferred. A lot of students that had maybe a little bit more money or had the right connections, they were deferred and did not have to go. And it was very obvious. But many of the others that did not have those... You wanted to go.
AS (01:11:13):
Yeah. I was-
SM (01:11:14):
But what did you feel about your fellow vets? In terms of...
AS (01:11:19):
To me, everybody was just people. I mean, I am serious about that. Everybody to me was just people. And because I came from a family of immigrants. And grew up in a place where my formative years, the neighborhood I lived in, in Cleveland, on the southeast side of Cleveland, a lot of people were factory workers and were very salt of the earth people. That it was the typical immigrant experience, first generation. We were first generation American. I was born here. My father was born in Italy. My mother's family came from there. That you do not have an attitude. You have to prove yourself. I mean, the attitude is that you do have an attitude, but that is that you have to prove yourself. That nothing is really given to you. You are not entitled to anything. That whatever you succeed with in life is something that you are going to earn because it is not going to be given. And I think that was the other thing too. Being in the military was a way of proving to yourself that you could withstand the tests and that you could eventually rise above it. I mean, because you think about most of World War II people, I mean, went to school on GI Bill after they served. A lot of people got their American citizenship by serving in the military because they were largely immigrants. First generation, they never gotten citizenship.
SM (01:13:12):
Right.
AS (01:13:13):
And this was like an extension, continuation of that. Because my family only arrived here in the 1940s.
SM (01:13:18):
Wow.
AS (01:13:21):
So, World War II was really defining because for that group that came in after the post-World War I group, they were part of post-World War I, that it would define them as being fully accepted as Americans.
SM (01:13:43):
Why did, in your opinion, I have gotten so many different opinion, why did we lose the Vietnam War? Now some people say we did not lose it. I have even had a couple say we did not lose it, we just did not put the effort into it.
AS (01:13:53):
Like what I said before is that we were not sure who we were as a nation. There were many different opinions. So, we were divided among ourselves. I mean, you can say whether we could have, what could have been or should have been, and how you interpret this or that. But the bottom line, I look at Vietnam as part of a process. I mean, we did not quote, lose it that we were a conquered nation. That we lost to a stronger country and hence, we lost our identity. But on the other hand, it was something, and even it did not resolve that question of who we were as a nation. It was just kind of an amazing thing. Now, what happened afterwards from as part of the progression, you can even say part of a process because a Jimmy Carter presidency was very different than a Ronald Reagan presidency. It was very good.
SM (01:14:50):
Yeah.
AS (01:14:51):
Because it has all been a process. And it has been a very fast-moving process going from what could be the richest country the world has ever known 10 years ago to now not being sure, most people not being sure if they can keep their houses. It is just so fast-paced. And there is a question of who are we? Because we are an idea. We are not... Because I deal with tribes that have long histories and that are interconnected. And loyalty to the tribe is first and foremost. We are not a tribal society. We are an idea. The idea of basically that you become some place that you can work hard, you can get an education, you can prove yourself, and you can achieve. Is that still possible? A lot of people doubt, they question that that is even possible anymore within a globalized society. The way the people that have been had the best educations in this country, basically turned against that idea by globalizing and then denying people living within their own homeland the opportunity to achieve middle class, or go beyond middle class if that is possible.
SM (01:16:13):
When you came home, I would like to know, first off, how you were treated? I have asked that to other people on both sides. Secondly, do you feel that the anti-war movement and the students who protested... And again, when I am talking about the boomer generation now, we are talking 78 million. But only about 15 percent of that 78 million was involved in any kind of activism. But that is still a large number.
AS (01:16:43):
Yeah, [inaudible]-
SM (01:16:43):
But-
AS (01:16:44):
...number, but it is not-
SM (01:16:45):
...how were-
AS (01:16:45):
...a dominant majority.
SM (01:16:47):
How were your fellow veterans, when you were over there, were they aware of what was happening in America, number one? Because (19)67 is kind of the fine point. The Americans kind of supported the war through (19)67. Something happened, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, (19)70 and (19)71, those five years. I mean, people, everybody went against the war. And people, families whose sons and daughters were from Ohio were against the war when you hit (19)70 and (19)71.
AS (01:17:16):
Quite a lot of people were not per se. A lot of people were like, "Okay, our country is doing anything, who am I to say?" And also when you came from communities where there were a lot of people that were in the military, there was not a hostility. Going to school, you would feel some of it. But it was all in how you carried yourself. It was all in how you handled yourself. But at the same time, it was a difficult period I think for anybody that came back, especially those of us that came back barely out of our teens, if we went in our teens. Because on one hand, you would experience events that very few people in this country have experienced, being in war. And especially, within your generation. And then how do you reconcile that with the general experience that many people that you knew? And even if it was not in your neighborhood, if you went to school, most of the people would not have experienced that.
SM (01:18:29):
Right.
AS (01:18:30):
There would have been very-very few people who had actually had prior military service before being in school. You are talking about 1970, 1971. And so, you had to inside of yourself deal with all of that. And I think anybody coming back from the war, I mean, you can look at now the amount of post-traumatic stress that there is in people coming back from, but again, we are talking about a situation here where it is multiple tours. They were short. In many cases, they have been short tours. But you never know when you were going to be called back. But I think the key thing is that when you are in wars that drag on, that appear to be unwinnable, how do you reconcile that with the sacrifices, even if it is not just your sacrifice, but the sacrifices where people die in a jam? And then you ask, "For what?" It seemed to be clear at the beginning of this current stuff that is going on, that this was revenge for 9/11. I think by now, people know the Iraq War had nothing to do with that. No one can explain the Iraq... I mean, I do not know who can explain the Iraq War except that the Bush family had a hard on for Saddam Hussein.
SM (01:19:54):
Right.
AS (01:19:55):
It had nothing to do with 9/11. It had a lot to do with oil. The Afghan War, I mean, it has been dragging on and dragging on now for eight years. And now they are saying, "Well, they did not... The most ridiculous quote I saw was the commanding general saying, "Well, we did not know it would be culturally offensive if we raided people's home in the middle of the night." That is culturally offensive anywhere. But again, maybe it is such that the all-volunteer force, people are so isolated from reality. And plus, these wars have dragged on for eight years. And people that have made careers of this with all the best of intentions, I am not going to impugn anybody's integrity, or their patriotism, or anything like that. But they lose track of reality. That is why I felt it was important for some of us that could be out in the field to show there is a different way of doing it, when you do not lose track of those common causes. The truth is that is one thing that I learned in Vietnam between being in a conventional unit and then being in a more specialized unit that was unconventional. That there is a common base of community. And that if you are away from a large group coming through and raiding people's homes or tearing down their fields, that you start, you can develop a relationship that is a constructive relationship, that is a positive relationship. And I felt that in these circumstances I felt full confidence not knowing what to expect. But there is a part of you that is at peace because you know it is possible. And there is very few of us that have been in that situation where we have been, and I say it did change me. I know what it is like to almost be dead. I know what it is like to be in a totally hostile environment and to maintain a sense of equilibrium. It is not an easy thing to do. And it is not like intervention for earthquake relief, or refugee relief, or flood relief where you are going in to set up emergency shelters for people. The stuff we are doing here we have to become part of people's lives. People who have never experienced anybody from like you from your culture, and where we have to learn the culture. Which is why I feel very comfortable with having a staff of mostly local people that you can establish though that common kind of instinctive bond with besides technical. So, that you know how to work with the local communities who are not very trusting of anybody.
SM (01:22:58):
That is beautiful because understanding culture has gotten us in a lot of trouble in our history. And obviously, Vietnam being one, not understanding the history of Vietnam all the way back, and who they fought for hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of years, and understanding that.
AS (01:23:18):
And how you would be perceived.
SM (01:23:19):
Yes.
AS (01:23:20):
Even if you were different, they would still perceive you as they would perceive anybody else that came into their space.
SM (01:23:25):
Right.
AS (01:23:26):
And that is the one thing, that I had a high school principal, once people got to trust me, gave me a book on the, and again, I was learning, but she also gave me a book and said, "I want you to read this because my brother wrote this, and he is one of us." And it was a book, I will show you the book, on the history and the psychology of the art of the tribe.
SM (01:23:49):
Oh, wow.
AS (01:23:50):
To understand the tribal art. This is how they interact and perceive their relationship with the world.
SM (01:23:56):
Okay.
AS (01:23:57):
And it was the best gift anyone could have ever given.
SM (01:23:59):
And this was given to you in what year?
AS (01:24:00):
About, this was 2003.
SM (01:24:02):
Wow.
AS (01:24:10):
I understand why people relate to art in their environment. You can start to understand how they perceive things. And you start to develop a sense of, you learn it by interacting. But it is also nice to know the culture, the history, and warmth, the form of communication. So, expressions in the culture, arts, and society of the Muslims in the Philippines. In particular-
SM (01:24:49):
Oh, wow.
AS (01:24:50):
In particular, the tribe that I was working with, which is the fiercest tribe, the Tausogs, that everyone was afraid of because they were the fiercest warriors in Southeast Asia. But I know that when warriors... Warriors are determined people. And if they are focused, they are very-very focused. And if they can be focused in ways that are constructive, they can do incredible things, incredibly. Or, they can do incredibly destructive things. It all depends upon the relationship, the communications, and their identity.
SM (01:25:26):
I got to share, I got to write this. Well, I will write this down before I leave.
AS (01:25:29):
That is a rare book because it was only published in just probably a couple hundred copies.
SM (01:25:35):
Oh, really?
AS (01:25:35):
Through a university press in the Philippines. But I found it to be profound at that moment because it gave me a sense of structure. It was not just instinctive relationship, but a sense of structure in how people are conditioned to perceive their environment. And the one thing with this, the most helpful thing was understanding... Read the inscription here.
SM (01:26:17):
Dear Mr. Albert Santoli, please accept this book written by Ahta Suk.
AS (01:26:23):
Ahta Suk.
SM (01:26:24):
Ahta Suk, Dr. Abraham Sedeqi, my brother, is in token of one heartfelt gratitude for all your kindness and generosity that you will always have touched the lives of the, less privileged?
AS (01:26:45):
Yeah, less privileged.
SM (01:26:48):
People of this province. Very nice.
AS (01:26:54):
But the thing in here that really got to me, and this is if you are creating educational forms and you are introducing new ideas, is that if you look at their paintings, in their calligraphy paintings, calligraphy... Let us see what we got here. Space is always full. And if space is perceived as not being full, people respond in a negative way for whatever reason that is. So, and it also means it has to be full of things that they can relate to, that they understand. So, when we started working in the schools, I did not want to bring in educational technologies-
SM (01:27:41):
[inaudible].
AS (01:27:47):
...at the outset. I had to find ways by which you could replace things that did not work with things that did work. And part of it would be educational technologies. But it had to be able to fit in and keep the space full in a way that people would be comfortable with. So, rather than bringing in computers, educational TV, because a teacher would not be afraid of a remote control, a DVD, or a video that has core curriculum in schools that have no books, where the blackboards are so fucking decrepit that if you write on it, you cannot even read it. And you do not even have chalk. But if you bring an educational TV with a generator, because there is always brownouts.
SM (01:28:38):
Right.
AS (01:28:38):
There is not consistent electricity. A, you are not using up as much electric. So, you can be using medium-sized generator sets, which do not cost all that much. And you can afford it when you are working with a small budget. B, you are getting a full... We have this one program we were working with that was sanctioned by the Department of Education National that would bring the tribal peoples into a national curriculum so that their education would have value and they could find jobs. Starting with reading, writing, arithmetic, in the form of Sesame Street type puppets. And the kids loved it because they do not have TV at home. And here is a very entertaining, like Sesame Street with the kids here. And the teachers could feel they were in charge because they could put the tapes in and out and use the remote control. And they still were in control of their classroom.
SM (01:29:31):
And I was reading that we are living in a world of terrorism right now. But during the Vietnam War, it was not as much terrorism as it was not understanding one's culture, the Cold War.
AS (01:29:48):
Well, it was the threat of-
SM (01:29:48):
We were in a Cold War.
AS (01:29:49):
...nuclear annihilation.
SM (01:29:55):
Yeah. So, would this have worked in that era?
AS (01:29:57):
Not in terms of big power confrontation, but in terms of some of the other things. I mean, you can look at things- In terms of some of the other things. You can look at things like the corps program, the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps was a part of that. You are right. Yeah. It is kind of like the Peace Corps, except that Peace Corps people cannot go into places that are just very hostile. We can be kidnapped and killed real easily. I do that because I am used to dealing in violent situations and just trying to have good sense and knowing how to work with local people. And I do not utilize, I will not use the word use because we try to respect everybody, we do not utilize expatriates as field staff because it is better to have field staff who know their own space, who know their own culture.
SM (01:30:56):
When you look at the generation that... You are a boomer; what year were you-
AS (01:31:03):
I was born in (19)49.
SM (01:31:04):
Yeah. So you are definitely a boomer, you are an early boomer. I know it is hard to generalize, but what would you think are some of the positive and some of the negative characteristics of your generation? I am probably speaking more about the activists.
AS (01:31:18):
I think there was a sense that all things were possible. There was an unbridled optimism for the most part. I think that depending on what kind of community you came from and what color you were, things were not so hard, you did not have to struggle so much. Education meant something. Now, I do not know, with my kids in high school and college, I do not know. Everybody's worried they cannot find jobs even with-
SM (01:31:59):
Oh, I know.
AS (01:32:00):
Well, you know, just coming up-
SM (01:32:01):
Yeah. I have students who graduated with teaching degrees that cannot find work.
AS (01:32:06):
And for us that is never a problem.
SM (01:32:08):
Yeah.
AS (01:32:08):
That is a big difference because we always had a sense of optimism and hope. When you start to lose that everything really has shifted. And what we have to do, working in the reverse process, with people that have not had hope since anyone could remember, is you are starting to try to build that stuff up. And it is coming down to, I am looking at what we are doing and what we are learning with the tribal people, that will have to be used here too. So I am looking in the future, and I am looking forward in the future to the methodologies and techniques that we are learning by working in these very tough environments that eventually we will be using it right here in the US with very collegial organizations that are community-based NGOs working in Washington and Chicago and New York and Philly. It will be the same, it is the same thing. How do you create hope, education, livelihood that has a meaning in places where people have lost a sense of [inaudible].
SM (01:33:08):
You are going to do this in the US too?
AS (01:33:12):
Eventually, I am sure.
SM (01:33:14):
Philly needs it. It really needs it.
AS (01:33:16):
Because it really is about common [inaudible]. It really is connecting with people. And there are many good community groups here. I think one of the best things that happened to me in the course of... also defining how one gets into this work, there was a period of time when I was writing for Parade Magazine when the Chief Editor, Walter Anderson, said, "You are not going to do any military stories. You are not going to do any foreign stories. I want you for a period of time," it was about two or three years, "Where you are doing nothing but localized stories." When Walter had a vision he goes, we have 100 million readers at Parade. Any story we do becomes a national role model. So I want you to get out there and find community-based programs that are exemplary programs of people that are heroes in their community. And you go out there and you find them. And whether it is a cover story, not a cover story, it does not matter because a lot of people are going to see it. And we can do something really good with showing people that are making a difference in their community. And other people communities will see it and they will adapt it however they will, but it creates hope. And at first, I was a little bit resentful because I would rather be out doing the other stuff. But the more I got into it, it really taught me so much. And it taught me about leadership because I was watching people that were good leaders. It taught me about what does not work in terms of politics and how it impacts on social and humanitarian programs. And usually the biggest enemy of the community organizers who are not politicians, we are the politicians because politicians want people to be dependent on them. And so a true community organizer is an antithesis of a politician if they are trying to help create independence within a community, self-reliability, self-sustenance. Because then they become the exact enemy of the people that are saying, here, take your monthly check and then come back and see me, rather than saying, here is an education program, here is how we are going to improve this housing project. We are going to do a community-based garden out in the... I did one, it was a community garden in the South Bronx where they were doing hydroponic farming. They were farming in the South Bronx, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, and selling their [inaudible] because the Bronx is still a farming district. A lot of people do not realize that.
SM (01:35:57):
No, I did not know that.
AS (01:35:58):
But the Bronx was and still is zoned as a farming area.
SM (01:36:05):
I have been there to do some interviews. I did not see any of that. But that is really interesting.
AS (01:36:12):
And so this guy, he was a local businessman, Hispanic guy. I am sure he was not totally aware of that. And that was completely irrelevant. But he saw that hydroponics work and he also saw there was a trend to a lot of restaurants running natural ingredients so they could grow all kinds of herbs. Just used cars or little vans, truck them around the city and create employment for people in the neighborhoods. So that was a pretty cool story.
SM (01:36:42):
And you have heard of Benjamin Barber, that Benjamin Barber. He used to be at the Walt Whitman Center at Rutgers, and I think he is at the University of Maryland now. But he has written a lot about the importance of understanding that we have a tendency to want to have strong presidents and strong leaders when in reality our nation will be greater if we have a strong citizenry without the need of a strong leader. Now we need a strong leader like FDR in times of crises and President Obama-
AS (01:37:11):
[inaudible] people would be-
SM (01:37:12):
But basically, he is saying, we always need, more than we need a great president, we need great citizens. And that is-
AS (01:37:19):
Education is critical to that.
SM (01:37:20):
Yes.
AS (01:37:21):
People have to believe that education has to have a purpose. And that is what I worry most that we are losing in this country. We have already lost it in the inner cities.
SM (01:37:31):
See, I think there is some, and I cannot pinpoint it, but I think there is some... we had Dr. Botstein on our campus, and he has been a very critical president of Bard University, a very talented person. And he has been very supportive of elementary education, that elementary education is working in the United States, but secondary education is not. And he advocates ending the senior year, and I am hearing more and more of ending the senior year and letting them graduate at 17. But he basically said that the universities have somewhat failed in many respects because we talked and we were wondering, of all those students in the (19)60s who got deferments because they went to become teachers instead of going to serve their country, but they had no interest in teaching, the effect-
AS (01:38:20):
And did not stay as teachers.
SM (01:38:21):
And did not stay as teachers. What has the effect of the education on those students-
AS (01:38:28):
I never thought-
SM (01:38:28):
Because I know when I went to Binghamton, members of my intermural team, they had no interest in being teachers. And that is frustrating. Quick question here on the [inaudible] and the (19)60s generation and boomers as a whole, I think even Vietnam veterans too, felt that they were the most unique generation in history, that they were going to be the cure to all these-
AS (01:38:53):
Maybe the most pampered.
SM (01:38:55):
Most pampered. But when you hear, and I know you have heard this before, there was a feeling as a generation that they were unique. They were different than anything before and anything that will follow.
AS (01:39:07):
Well, the thing is, the opportunity that was there and the wealth that was there, the creature comforts that were there was unique. I mean, I am sure that throughout it, throughout antiquity, that there were periods of times, maybe at some point Rome had that at some time, some place in Greece had that at some point, parts of China had that during different kingdoms that there was a uniqueness because they were so better off than any other kingdom or any other country or any other population compared to how the rest of the world lived. And we did have that uniqueness. I mean, we still do. Even though things here are not as easy as it used to be, from what I see in the places where we are working, other places I visited as a journalist and whatnot, we still do not have it so badly. But what worries me is what is coming down the road.
SM (01:40:05):
See something that you are talking about here, boomers are going to be supposedly changed retirement. I retired to write my book, but I do not plan on being retired. I know a lot of my friends do not either. A lot of people do not look at sitting on a beach and maybe taking a trip once a year or whatever, go and see the grandkids, as the fulfillment of one's life in your organization. With the boomers retiring and the attitudes that so many of them had that they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that might be a group that can link up if they know people like you exist.
AS (01:40:55):
Communicating what we have learned and what we are doing. And that is one thing we had not done so well, partly because I wanted to make sure we had something that was real. And also because trying to do that work in difficult places and create the model, I could not be doing everything at once, including administration, which I have to do fundraising, we do not have government money.
SM (01:41:19):
You are nonprofit?
AS (01:41:20):
Yep. And we do not have government money. Most nonprofits will survive on government. We do not have government funds. So I have to be continually fundraising and then continuing budgeting to lower than a T. We are in a constant month-to-month crisis as to how we keep things going. And on top of that, as a part of my wartime experience, I found out in 2005 that I got a bad blood transfusion. One of the times that I was wounded and my liver was gone, just about gone, and so you would not believe this, but in September I had very serious surgery and almost lost my life on the operating tank. And that puts a whole other perspective on things as a feeling of responsibility that I do not know how much longer I have to live. I hope it is another 30 years, but it might not be. I have had doctors tell me in the past, I had two or three years to live.
SM (01:42:32):
Because of your liver?
AS (01:42:33):
Because of my liver. And here I am, you can see my energy, it is pretty good. And except for this little eye thing, which is unrelated to the liver, I think it is the commitment to the work that keeps going strong.
SM (01:42:49):
Oh, I believe people that care about others. This leads into my next question, which is about healing. We took a group of students to Washington about nine years ago to meet Senator Aman Musk. He was pretty ill at the time. He passed away with a very sharp period. He had been in the hospital and he had watched the Ken Burns series. But the students came up with this question because these were students who were not boomers. And the question they wanted to ask is when they looked at 1968 and the protests in Chicago and the people being smashed over the heads and all that kind of stuff, and the divisions even within the hall itself, the question they wanted to ask was, have we healed as a nation? And how close were we to a civil war in 1968 with all the divisions? And we had riots in the streets and the assassinations of two major figures, a president resigning and even though we had the walk on the Moon which was a hopeful thing, I think that was a blessing at the end of the year. But do you feel as those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who were white versus black, all the divisions and all the things that were happening at that time, do you think that we still have a problem in this nation with healing, particularly within the boomer generation? I do not think the generations [inaudible] really care, but I am talking about the boomer generation. Is there an issue of healing here?
AS (01:44:25):
I think it depends on the individual. I really do think it depends. I think in large part that there was a lot of evolution that was done in terms of, if you look at the positive trends in the social elements of things in regard to racial acceptance and a number of other things. But again, it does not happen overnight. It is a generational process. So you figured from the time of (19)68, those assassinations, to now having a partially black president given his mixed race, still most people considering him black, that is from 40 years. So it is like two generations.
SM (01:45:09):
Yeah, we are the Generation X and millennials.
AS (01:45:11):
So that is why I am looking at what we are doing here. And again, it is something that we know from our own experience that it takes a couple of generations to get something on track. You plant a seed, you try to stay with it the best you can. There is going to be all kinds of turmoil along the way because that is life. That is human nature. But it takes a little bit of time. But I think that there were a lot of very positive trends and changes that happened. And even with the negative things you could say about the military, the military was a social leader in starting with things like citizenship and bringing people together to the issue of integration.
SM (01:45:59):
Oh yeah. Harry Truman and that whole integration.
AS (01:46:03):
And then a number of other areas as well that I am sure somebody in the future will look back and say, well, I do not think it is good for young mothers to be sent into combat. I think that is wrong. Because it is for a number of reasons. One is just because you should not separate a child from a mother unless you have desperate situation where you are defending your homeland on your own soil and everyone has to defend it. But also because it hurts morale. It hurts morale terribly. And I think it is very countless. And I think the one thing that concerned me after 9/11 was that we would become vengeful ourselves. I have been dealing with Taliban for six years and saw the way that vengeance was being turned into just a horrendous psychotic poison. And the way boys being separated from their mothers, because that is a part of the evil psychology of the Osama bin Laden and the Prince Turki al Faisal and the [inaudible]. The guys who created the Taliban, they know human psychology. These guys were trained in the best schools in England. They are not idiots.
SM (01:47:15):
What is interesting, one of my last efforts at Westchester was a day and a half conference called Islam in America. And we brought major figures in and I wrote a grant, I did a lot of things to make it happen with a very small committee of three faculty members and three students in the Muslim Student Association. And I could not believe, we were packed. Every session was packed, but security was all concerned. And also the Jewish community was out in arms that we were doing a program on understanding Islam. There was nothing in this program that was supposed to be attacking Israel. It was simply understanding the faith and understanding Islam, even though some of the people they were attacking, they checked the backgrounds. But I can understand again about the culture. It is not understanding a culture. And even if you are a person who wants to educate students about the culture, you are an enemy because you are not supporting our culture.
AS (01:48:17):
The Middle Eastern thing was the worst.
SM (01:48:19):
Senator Muskie responded by saying that he felt that we had not healed since the Civil War. And he did not even talk about (19)68. [inaudible] Civil War. And anybody that goes to Gettysburg like I do, because I feel I have to understand war, and I go there to understand it because I did not serve and my dad did in the Pacific. But I have noticed that on the southern side, there is a lot of flags [inaudible]. Nothing is ever left at the northern side. And I am trying to figure it out. I am trying to figure it out. And then I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week and she said the south has healed but the north has not healed. I disagreed with her. She says, oh no, the south has healed from the Civil War but the north still has a problem. So I am getting all these different perspectives on the healing. And I think of when I talk about the healing, I was thinking about the Vietnam Memorial. I made a point of going to the wall since I got to know Lewis Puller. Lewis met with our students in November before he committed suicide the following spring. And the wall means a lot to me. But I think it is very important for our generation. I think Jan Scruggs' book "To Heal a Nation" is right on. But I wanted to ask you, as a Vietnam veteran, what does the wall mean to you as a veteran? And I know a lot of vets still have not healed because I had been there and I have experienced it. But those that were the anti-war people on the other side, I am wondering if there is guilt feelings that they did not serve.
AS (01:50:02):
I think it is [inaudible] to the individual. When that monument was being planned, I felt very strongly that it should not just be a tombstone because a tombstone is about you do not heal from it. You agree. And I felt it was important and I very strongly supported it at that time. Jim Webb was the guy that was most up front. But I supported very much having an American flag there and also to have something else that would be about life. I felt it was important that life be a part of it. Not just death, but life. Because there were 55,000 that died, but there were over 2 million who survived. And it should be something when healing takes place, it is the whole picture. It is not just a partial picture. Grief in itself. I know that there is people, I know that there were some, the friends of the Vietnam Memorial, nice people, really nice people, I do not know if they still have a station down there, but they used to and they had grief counseling, they had nurses that were specialists. And I think all of that is great. But I also felt that there should also be, the way that you deal with grief is life, is to know that life continues and that there is some things you cannot do anything about except cry because it happened. You are going to have the emotions about it. Because it is very real and it is very deep. But life has to go on. And so with that, back then, I did not have a problem with the wall itself being built, but I felt it should not just be in place like a cemetery. We [inaudible] as a cemetery but there should be something about it that put it in perspective. So I was really happy that the statute and the flag were there. Because it should be about transcendence and transformation, the optimism of the boomers. But I believe in transformation. I believe in transcendency.
SM (01:52:17):
So I am not in your shoes, but it is a great quality that Vietnam vets have, and that is brotherhood. I see it. I know some vets that I know in Philly, some of the top leaders in Philly wish that some of the vets would quit wearing their outfits from Vietnam because they are gaining weight and all that other stuff. And they wear suits and that is the only thing that they love them. But they are tired, they wish they would stop wearing that stuff. But I have been to the wall now for 14 some years, since Bill Clinton gave his speech. And they can be whatever they want when they come to the wall. They identify and they all have people on that wall they lost. And I just admire them. I admire the brotherhood, I admire the caring. It is something I wish you could just bottle and people put it on their breakfast every morning. So not only that we did not have another war.
AS (01:53:19):
It was about adversity. And unlike what you could say, what happened in certain ghetto environments, it was a broader adversity because it was one part of the American society that was not small, it was a minority who did feel isolated. And even for Joe McDonald, Joe was in the Navy and I think Joe felt that too. Even though he became a symbol of anti-war and this and that, he still was very much a part of feeling a part of brotherhood.
SM (01:53:57):
He served early though. He served-
AS (01:53:59):
But he still felt a part of it even though he then experienced and got involved with the other part of that experience. But there is a sense of that. You still have it in you because you did have the experience. And I think that is a part of it is that we are thinking about with everything we had and my books, especially everything we had, if you look at the beginning of the book, the preface, I said, we do not want to parade, a monument, or mercy, or pity. We were simply people like any others. Except that what we experienced in its own way, was prepped. And we cannot talk to our families about it. Because if you have experienced, especially those of us that were combatants, I know a lot of World War II guys when I was growing up that would not talk about their experiences.
SM (01:54:54):
Why did not you talk?
AS (01:54:56):
Because it is not the kind of thing you share with people because it is tough and you do not know yourself because you have all kinds of people when you are involved and kill or be killed. And it is within a structure, you have all kinds of mixed emotions because you know how to survive it because you have not fully crossed the line like someone who commits an act of murder out of passion, and you can justify if you are fighting people that you could say are wanting to take over the world and do bad things. But still there is those common bonds. We are still as a human being with a conscience, even if you kill somebody that is very bad or you could say whatever the case may be. But you still have gone beyond a line that is a part of our social convention and our emotional convention and how you reconcile that is not an easy thing. And I think that is a root of PTSD and all that stuff is how do you reconcile [inaudible]? And especially if you are young, Vietnam had the youngest level of combat, youngest age combatants. The average age was 19, 20 years old. And you know from working with students, 19 or 20, for your own kids, when they are 19 or 20, when you are going through, it is like everything is just going to happen.
SM (01:56:34):
Yeah. The first Vietnam vet that I knew was in my very first job at Ohio University. And he was a father, I think one child or two. He was working at Ohio University, the Lancaster campus outside of Columbus. And he had a little office. So Ohio University was a little ahead of the game here, but the students never went to say hi to him, none of them. And I was close to all the students because we had a campus of 2000. But I got to know him. So I was sensitive about the war anyway-
AS (01:56:59):
Oh, he was only 2000 students?
SM (01:57:01):
The Lancaster campus.
AS (01:57:02):
Oh, okay.
SM (01:57:02):
I worked at the branch campus, which was outside Columbus. And that campus was the most radical of all the schools because they purged from 18 five to 13 five in a year and a half. Some of these I read a book on. They purged all the liberal students out of the campus in Athens. Ron Kovic actually came there and he was arrested just for the mere fact of being there. And it was a very conservative community. And where they-
AS (01:57:31):
Were they West Virginia?
SM (01:57:32):
Yeah. And I can remember when Ron Kovic came, I actually went down to see him speak, but they would not allow him on campus. So they just booted him off and they took him off to the prison. They did not care if he was in a wheelchair or not. He was a radical. But what are the other, I know you probably-
AS (01:57:50):
I have to go, it is past 6:30.
SM (01:57:51):
Yeah.
AS (01:57:52):
I need to get home and make sure the kids have eaten.
SM (01:57:56):
Yeah, sorry. Could we continue this with another... Because there is a lot of questions like personalities and I had a whole section here, but-
AS (01:58:03):
A part of the experience. But it is not the dominant... I would not be doing this if it was not for that. So I cannot say it was not the dominant experience.
SM (01:58:13):
If you could sign that for me. Just [inaudible], your name and today's date. I wish I had my other books, but I do not have a [inaudible]. I had three of your four books.
AS (01:58:28):
But I am more concerned right now about what direction things are going in. I am worried we are going to go broke and on a lot of different levels, forget who we are-
SM (01:58:41):
It is interesting, a person that I interviewed said to me when I asked that question about did we have a second Civil War, of course they did not live at those times, but this person said, the times that we are living in today are comparable to the Depression and the Civil War. I thought, whoa, and because we have such a potential for people to lose everything and when people lose everything, violence can start, people place blame. The reason why I am in this situation is because of this person or that group or the immigrants are the problem or the people from Mexico are the problem or the taking the jobs over to China are the problem. And or blaming the whole boomer generation.
AS (01:59:30):
Well what concerns me is the big one is coming. Because inevitably that is what it leads to. And it is not the stuff now. The stuff right now is an agitation. I am more concerned about the fight over food shortages, will be continuing because of low weather patterns changing and water shortages become more profound. And when you have more competing countries that are fighting for the same oil, gas and other things we are like during World War II or right before World War II... like during World War II, right before World War II, the Depression. Then the competition and the conflict between the emerging empires like Japan and Germany, reconstituting its strength against the West. And I am very concerned we are going into a similar period right now.
SM (02:00:23):
Do you think Japan could eventually come back to the-
AS (02:00:26):
No.
SM (02:00:26):
Okay, because-
AS (02:00:27):
But Russia definitely-
SM (02:00:27):
A lot of people are-
AS (02:00:34):
And China. And China, most definitely. I am watching it happening in Asia. And there is... Rivalry is very strong. And the thing that I am looking at is instability among the smaller countries. And if there can be some coherency and some stability among the smaller countries, it might have influence the larger countries. But if there is instability and weakness of the smaller countries with the resources and other countries believe that they can take advantage of it, it will lead to big power conflict. That is my historical perspective on that.
SM (02:01:12):
Everybody predicts that the problem will end up with Israel and the Middle East, and Palestine or whatever the issue might be. But the-
AS (02:01:22):
That is a flash point for sure. But the bigger problem is going to be... China right now is very full of itself. And they believe that they had a couple of bad centuries. And there are the resources to sustain everything. Plus, and on top of it, there is the hold onto a system that is an intolerant system, and that the elite, not every Chinese person, but the elite, that whatever the 1 percent that controls the dominance of wealth will get very a vicious and be looking for outside enemies. I mean, here we have a problem with the potential of emerging police state. And with higher technology, that makes it a little bit easier, because it is more easy to monitor people. That worries me a lot. And also, now our dependence upon private security groups and vigilante, not vigilante, but mercenary groups, to be doing national bidding, it undermines democracy and [inaudible].
SM (02:02:33):
Oh, we had a discussion just before I left. It was not a program, but some of the top scholars at a school that was at a luncheon. And there was a fear that something will happen to President Obama, and that whoever the powers are that... Anybody that threatens the money market or the money has to be eliminated. And, of course, the China situation is something we know. And historically they have hated the Japanese. And the question is, will they destroy them? And they do not like Vietnam either. And the two historic enemies of China, even though Vietnam and China were linked, is Vietnam and Japan. They do not like... I know there is a relations... They do not like each other.
AS (02:03:29):
The Vietnamese, right now are a threat.
SM (02:03:31):
They might have resources there, but they want to take over.
AS (02:03:35):
They will take it. They will take it in the north. They will just take it. But with Japan, they owe some heavy, heavy vengeance too. I would not be comfortable right now if I was Japanese. This is going to get real interesting these next five or 10 years.
SM (02:03:54):
Will the Germans ever forget that we beat them either?
AS (02:03:57):
The Germans have largely gotten over it. I think it is partly because there has been other... Like, Russia was always the overriding shadow. Maybe if it was not for Russia it would be different. But Germany has been more aligned with the West because of that.
SM (02:04:16):
Russia might be heading... Of course we see some changes happening now with a-
AS (02:04:20):
Sliding back.
SM (02:04:21):
Yeah, sliding back. They do not like what is going on in Eastern Europe.
AS (02:04:37):
Well, like I say, I am hoping that the hard times bring upon us greater, better leadership, and that also there is a way of sustaining some of what is-
SM (02:04:49):
Three more pictures. And then I will let you go.
AS (02:04:51):
Okay, some of what is remaining of the things that led to the optimism of this country. Actually, there you go. Oh, that is fine.
SM (02:05:08):
The one thing I was going to ask too is when you think of... There is two things that happened in the (19)80s that really stand out when you think about Vietnam. It is when Ronald Reagan came to the presidency, I interviewed Ed Meese last week, and Ed says, "I do not remember him saying that." He does not remember. I have got to find the speech where I read it. But it is basically saying, "We are back." And it was a reason. He is going to build the military up and he is going to do a lot of different things. That is what it really meant, that is what he thought.
AS (02:05:38):
Well, I remember when he said that Vietnam was a noble cause. And I thought that was a really radical but a good thing to say. And it was also during the Iranian hostage crisis, and the country was different, was ready for a different view of itself.
SM (02:05:58):
Right.
AS (02:05:59):
That Iranian hostage crisis also was a flashpoint history that altered our perceptions of ourselves.
SM (02:06:08):
I was taping the whole thing.
AS (02:06:10):
So, again, if you are looking at all of these things, that historical progression. Remember, the other one was the Vietnam syndrome is over, which is what George Sr. said. And a lot of people said, "Oh, that is ridiculous," because every time we had to do something in foreign policy, we are still talking about Vietnam. And whenever you bring up the word Vietnam, or the word quagmire, it sends shivers down... Did I...
SM (02:06:34):
[inaudible].
AS (02:06:35):
Yeah. I actually go up New York Avenue and get back on the highway, and... That is the only thing I know. No, not that [inaudible]. You want to get to the... Are you talking about the 30th Street Station? Or not 30...
SM (02:07:18):
[inaudible 02:07:23].
AS (02:07:18):
Can you point me on how to get there?
SM (02:07:18):
[inaudible 02:07:32].
AS (02:07:18):
Yeah. [inaudible]. Should I follow you, or?
SM (02:07:18):
[inaudible 02:08:02].
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Albert Santoli
Contributor
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Santoli, Al, 1949- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews
Description
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Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam and earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-05-18
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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147:37
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ed Sanders
Language
English
Biographical Text
Ed Sanders is a poet, author, musician, and activist who grew up in the state of Missouri. He attended the University of Missouri and New York University where he earned his Bachelor's degree in Ancient Greek. After college, he opened the Peace Eye Bookstore in New York City and started <em>Fuck You: A Magazine of the Arts</em>. Allen Ginsberg, Ezra Pound, and Dylan Thomas were all early influences as Sanders tried to bridge the concerns of Beat Poetry and the counterculture of the 1960s. He is the author of many collections of poetry where he received several honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation. Sanders has written many books of prose, a non-fiction book, <em>The Family</em>, and published a bi-weekly newspaper, the <em>Woodstock Journal</em>. He is the founding member of the satirical and subversive folk-rock music group, The Fugs.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
77:17
Keywords
<span>Cuban Missile Crisis; WWII; Beatnik fashion; Beatnik; Beats; Allen Ginsberg; Jack Kerouac; Gregory Corso; William Burrough; Herbert Huncke; Ferlinghetti; Gary Snyder; Irving Howe; Watergate ; Curtis LeMay; Lyndon Johnson; Gulf of Tonkin; Eisenhower; U2 incident; President Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Coup of Diem; Tom Hayden; Jimi Hendrix; Ann Waldman; Amiri Baraka; Ken Kesey; John D. Rockefeller; Vietnam Draft; Manhattan Project; Activism; 1960s music; Howl; Naked Lunch; William Buckley; The Fugs; freakout tent; Woodstock; Wavy Gravy; Medicare; Boomer Generation; Peter Max; Samuel Beckett.</span>
Roosevelt Era; Baby boom generation; Red Scare; Activism; Vietnam War; Universal Health Care; Senator Edmund Muskie; Slavery; Beat generation; John Coltrane; Lester Young; Jazz; Neal Cassady; Silent Generation.
Subject LCSH
Poets, American, Singers--United States; Human rights workers; Environmentalists—United States; Authors; Publishers; Sanders, Ed--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ed Sanders
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: ND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:04
ED: Get ready to go.
0:07
SM: Still there? Okay. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
0:15
ED: Liberation and the utilization of the Bill of Rights.
0:24
SM: Is there one specific event in your life that shaped you when you were much younger? One specific happening in our world or society?
0:33
ED: Um, I do not think so. I suppose, you know, the death of loved ones is always a pounding from the universe. My mother died when I was in high school in 1957. Others are, the most formative one in the (19)60s for me, was the Cuban Missile Crisis, when many people really did think that our eyeballs might melt in a nuclear confrontation.
1:11
SM: Um hmm
1:12
ED: I went to bed that night in October thinking that might be curtains for ̶
1:22
SM: So you were probably watching that black and white TV set too when Kennedy came on?
1:27
ED: I did not have one but nobody in my nascent beatnik crowd had a telephone much less a television. No, we watched it at Stanley's Bar. It is depicted in my short story [inaudible] from Volume One of Tales of Beatnik Glory.
1:49
SM: Mm hmm.
1:49
ED: It tells it like it is, like it really happened. So I would say that the Cuban Missile Crisis and then to get out of class at NYU and all of the phones were dead because Kennedy had just been shot. I mean, we tend to be [inaudible] as we measure out our lives in [inaudible] in the (19)60's we measured on our life in assassinations and government ̶
2:23
SM: One of the things in recent years, particularly in the 1990s, and into the first couple of years of this century, there was a lot of criticism of the boomer generation as to the reason to why we have a breakdown in American society. The breakdown of the family, the drug culture, lack of respect for authority; really attaching most of the negatives we have in our society on that particular group of young people, which was about seventy million. Do you think that's fair? Or is it just blowing air?
3:03
ED: I think it is bullshit. The boomers are not to be marked out as betraying their nation any more than any other generation: the lost generation of twenties, the Dadaists of Zurich any art generation the [inaudible], the beatniks, the hippies, the neo-realists. I mean, in all these movements, in other words, that what it is life is it really truly a fabric in a very complicated, weave. The boomers are just part of the overall weave. You know, some of the great things are still being done in the society by the remnants of the Roosevelt era in the (19)30s. The boomers began in this horrible scams, that used Red Scares (that started in 1948) just to prop up the defense contractors. And through Truman and McCarthy and the Korean War, which really did not have to happen, so boomers were given a loaded deck from the civilization and I thought they did pretty well. Especially beginning in the late Eisenhower era, around (19)58 (19)59 when they began to sniff that there was a lot of freedom guaranteed by the constitution that was not used.
4:32
SM: Mm Hmm.
4:32
ED: The generation of the late fifties and the early sixties started using that freedom and as a result, the content of television programs is much more freedom based than it was in say 1939 when the producers of Gone with the Wind had to pay a $5,000.00 fine because Clark Gable uttered the word "damn."
5:03
SM: I did not know that. Oh, wow.
5:05
ED: So flash forward to the early (19)60s when say Lenny Bruce was persecuted in the city. And they tried to ban Howl, Allen Ginsberg's poem in 1958 and there were others, there was William Burroughs Junky hug, William Burroughs Naked Lunch, they tried to ban. But anyway, one after another, these are artificial bans on artistic freedoms were translated to the society as a whole. I do not think there is a breakdown of the family at all, I think there is a definition of family has expanded vastly in our era, so that there are different modes of raising children. The issue is raising sane and honest and ethical and energetic and useful children who grow up to fill the various niches that society needs, from digging ditches, to flying airplanes, to being scientists, inventors, being singers and musicians. All the different spots to get people to fill those then. So there are different combinations of human beings that are raising children now. I think there is not a background, there is not a ̶ the code of Hammurabi type of ethics and the strict reading of the ten commandments is, except for things like: Thou shall not kill, which is of course, never followed by the government, especially one that has force. But anyways, I think all those rules from ancient civilization have been reassessed in a very widespread way. Now the boomer generation that you are writing about, I guess they are getting, they are not quite geezers yet. What are they forty-eight? They are about sixty-one now?
7:08
SM: Sixty-two.
7:08
ED: Yeah, so they are getting ready. They can have early Social Security, some of them if they need it. And in another three years they will be getting Medicare, hopefully, Obama will have adjusted Medicare so it actually pays for things like dentistry, eye glasses and long term health care, long term nursing care. If that happens they will have a good road to the Happy Hunting Ground. Of course, longevity is going to increase the First World War vet just passed away. I mean, the remaining the First World War vet there are very few if any, and others not in England, but maybe there is a few in the United States. So the boomer vet, the boomer gen, veterans of the boomer generation will live on and on and on, thanks to modern healthcare.
7:49
SM: Right.
7:58
ED: The revolution, they may last to, maybe 120 or 130 years old. I think certainly their great grandchildren will have long, long lives.
8:19
SM: If you were to put some just real quick adjectives, some strengths and weaknesses of that generation, what would you put down?
8:33
ED: Um? Strengths and weaknesses?
8:40
SM: Yeah.
8:41
ED: I do not really think like that.
8:43
SM: But it is okay.
8:44
ED: Because it is not really one homogenous generation, many, many different types of people. You can lump them all together because they grew out of the victory over Hitler and Mussolini in the energy of the post-atomic era, they exploded out. You know, they were not making cars in the years before that generation so there was this huge need for automobiles and baby clothes and new houses and jobs. An explosion in the economy in the (19)40s and (19)50s based on all this kind of energy and hunger from the generation that defeated Hitler and the others.
9:38
SM: I asked you earlier about, youth.
9:40
ED: No, no. It is like. The answer to your question is that, it is like, you cannot really say there are blue states and red states because within each state like very right wing states, I have very, very good liberal progressive friends in Texas.
9:59
SM: Mm Hmm.
9:59
ED: Or Arkansas and in Georgia for instance, they are more center left more center left than I am! But they are in these states that are judged to be red states. So it is the same way with the boomer generation it is a wide and diverse tapestry of people that have, through no fault of their own, been brought together as this entity, as they approach old age. So they are like a huge scientific experiment, I guess. And guys like you or, or the scientists that are analyzing them. Anyway, do you have another question?
10:42
SM: Yeah, it was a question about when do you think the (19)60s began? What do you think was the watershed moment? Now, you mentioned your watershed moment in 1962, the Cuban Missile Crisis, but for the generation, what do you think?
10:57
ED: That was personal but generational? Well, there were many good things, I would think the invention of the wah, wah pedal in 1966, which gave Jimi Hendrix some of his most beautiful songs. In general the rise of technology to support the arts in the (19)60s. New types of paints and acrylics and techniques, such as the [inaudible] painting hybrid that was used by Andy Warhol or the montage collage carpentry of Robert Rauschenberg. And then in music, the rise of technology. The Beatles recorded many of their early tunes on four tracks, and then all of a sudden they had eight track and then finally twelve and sixteen tracks, and the same and so the recording technology, the ability to do overdub, to perform in public, they had to build new sound systems so that Crosby, Stills Nash and Young and the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones could play baseball stadiums and not blow out speakers. And there was a huge rise in an artistic technology in the movies. The invention of the video camera around 1967, which allowed Roman Polanski and others to film, their daily rushes in video and then run them right away and see how it was going. So there was all of this technology I think, starred in the mix of the best part of the early years of the boomers.
12:52
SM: When boomers used to say and many still do think that they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society in so many ways. How do you respond to boomers who think that way? Not only then but now?
13:11
ED: Put up or shut up.
13:13
SM: Good point. That, that was all I needed to hear. That was excellent. Because one of the concerns I have had and we've talked about this at our university in certain programs, even Jennie Skerl has been bothering him before she retired is you know, some people copped out and some people continued to go on and on fight for issues. So how important were college students in ending the Vietnam War?
13:48
ED: Well, because they are part of that species known as young people, and young people they can extend, they often have others who are supporting them or helping support them so they could take time out they could go to freedom summers, they could go down to Selma to march. They could go sit-in against nuclear testing in Nevada. They could go to a commune learn how you know, life is. They could take time off to write a book that might not make them a lot of money, so they have time. You know, and they have, the college kids are part of that. Certainly one of the key things that these college kids did was to end the draft which finally ended in 1971. So, it was a huge effort to end that draft. I think ending the draft has prevented a whole bunch of wars that could have happened that now cannot happen because they never have enough troops. Really the Vietnam War had to start winding down because in like 1968, the military realized they did not have enough soldiers to fight in Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia and Thailand, all the other bigger wars. As well as to protect the homeland. The military has a default charge, and that is one which is foreign protection, foreign interest foreign wars, and then to protect the homeland. And after the riots in (19)67, and after the riots that occurred after the assassination of Martin Luther King in April of (19)68. The military had to start pulling back because they did not have enough soldiers to deal with all that. Ending the draft really prevented the military from expanding wars excessively throughout the world. So I think that the long answer to a short question is that it was a great gift of the young people and college kids, to end the draft.
16:17
SM: Do you think they have done a good job? Some are grandparents now the boomers and some are still having, are still parents, and grandparents. Do you think that they have been passing on some of their activism down to their kids and grandkids? Or?
16:33
ED: Well, you do that by two ways. One is by example that your children can easily observe and understand and appreciate. Or two, by teaching, reading and making sure your kids are exposed to the right music, the right songs, the right books, the right and take them out to protest demonstrations and show them what it is it to be against the war. Take them to meetings so that they can understand how grassroots activism is conducted. That is another method too. Many parents do not pass on the torch which is one of the tragedies of that era is that the torch was extinguished. And then now grandchildren. I do not know, it is a difficult thing because you never, suddenly a grandchild can take an issue, take an interest in issue and become very involved, it is really hard to predict. The fact that we do not have universal health care. The fact that we are in two or three or four maybe more wars right now, that you have things like Somalia, in the jungles of the Philippines, as well as Iran and Iraq. We, the boomer generation, the (19)60s generation, the (19)50s generation, the last three or four generations have failed to turn the United States civilization into a more humane, caring society in general, although we have a lot of freedom. We are really like the civilization depicted in Bertolt Brecht's Rise and Fall of the City of Mahogany. Everything is possible, everything is allowed, as long as you have money.
18:28
SM: This is a question and I want to read this because this has to do with the issue of healing. We had a chance I took a group of students down to see Ed Muskie, former senator before he passed away. He had just gotten out of the hospital and we took our students there. And I read him this question.
18:43
ED: Oh did he have cancer?
18:44
SM: Yeah, yeah, he died. I think he died of cancer. But he was in remission for a short time before he came back and it did him in. Do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Division between black and white, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the wall played in healing these divisions or was this primarily a healing for veterans? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has forty years made the statement "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I want to just finish by saying that when I asked Ed Muskie, that question, he had just gotten out of the hospital and he had been watching Ken Burns' Civil War series when he was in the hospital. And so he and he did not answer the question right away. He waited about a minute. And then he had tears in his eyes. And then he we had fourteen students there and they were all kind of looking at each other what is going on here. And he basically said, we have not healed since the Civil War, and then he went on to be talking about you know, the all the loss of life from that particular war and the loss of generations of kids that would have been born because the population during that war was a lot smaller than it is here so the proportion of men in America and the number of kids they could have had was astounding. But just your thoughts on, you know, whether healing should be an issue here within the generation. Ed, could you speak up just a little bit too?
20:31
ED: It used to be that the Swedes, rode out and sailed out of Sweden for instance or from Denmark, the Danes, toward England and landed and then slaughtered everybody they could find. Steal the women and the food and the jewelry and the people [inaudible] Fast forward four or five centuries and you know, Denmark and Sweden are [inaudible] pretty advanced [inaudible] marvelous health system and pretty advanced systems besides those, Denmark but it takes four or five hundred years often for a society to reveal its moral identity [inaudible]. However, with respect to the Civil War, I agree with Ulysses Grant, who said that the civil war could have been God's punishment for America undertaking the Mexican War, evil and the injustices, and slaughter, in the Mexican War and the karma of that, oozed forward into the karma of the Civil War. I think the Civil War leads directly back to greedy English planters in Jamestown, and from say, after the founding, in 1607 up to say, 1690 those first eighty years, deliberately bringing in more and more and more and more and more slaves from the dungeons of no return in Africa to do long term damage to the soil through first growing tobacco, this nasty tobacco from the Indies and then cotton. Those lines of slavery and the terrible exploitation of blacks [inaudible] Virginia in South Carolina down in the south, the karma of that leap forward to the Civil War and beyond. And then, you know there was plenty of people that were raised as racists even, especially among the boomer generation, and anti-Semites, there is plenty of anti-Semites, anti-black, and there is plenty of anti-Portuguese. The Italians put down the Irish and Irish sometimes sneer at the Italians. The Germans called Swedes stupid and the Swedes called the Germans cruel and barbaric and the Norwegians could not stand above them all the Scotch-Irish have carried their mean streak forward in America ever since they were shoved out of Ireland and Scotland you know, after the triumph of 1649 to 1660, after the Protestants took over. Who is that guy?
23:47
SM: Martin Luther?
23:48
ED: No, no, no. This is 1649.
23:50
SM: Oh 1649.
23:51
ED: 1660, he was the Protestant head of England and then after he died, his son tried to rule and then they brought back Charles the second.
24:02
SM: Cromwell?
24:03
ED: Cromwell. Ollie baby! So, you know, the, Cromwell was so mean to the Irish and then there was all this division of land and pushing out and they, they stole all the, all the common lands. There were these ancient common lands in England and all through the seventeenth century they closed off the commons and drove everybody out and some of them came to America and they were you know, bitter and angry kept those mean streaks going right up to now, some of these. I mean, I am Scotch-Irish. I am part Scotch-Irish anyway.
24:44
SM: That is what I am.
25:00
ED: Well, anyway, everybody brought their, their racial characteristics and their karmic characteristics into the boomer genesis, post-Second World War boomer generation. And they, people submerge their personal problems, they submerge their idiosyncrasies, and they submerge their mean streaks at least for a while into the general flow of getting up, getting to a job, having children, getting married, you know, eek out a living, set a little aside for when they are old, and just to get by as Americans. So but they cannot escape those plantations of a Jamestown and they cannot escape the evil of the Mexican War that [inaudible] protests against and what Ulysses S. Grant wrote about, and then the horrible slaughter of Antietam.
26:01
SM: Oh yeah.
26:02
ED: And all throughout Gettysburg and oy Shiloh. Oy! Oy! Oy!
26:09
SM: Mm Hmm.
26:10
ED: But then it goes back also to George Washington's surge in the late eighteenth century against the natives, the Indians of Western New York, just to clear land really and for further development by the Europeans who were surging to the west. Now that the English were defeated more or less in the Revolutionary War. So all this karmic gnarl cannot be separated if you know anything about history from this generation. This generation the boomer generation did not spring like dragon's teeth from the soil of America. They have karmic knots that go way back but they did good, it was an inventive era you know, the transistor and I do not know, they did interesting things and also the American culture. Jazz! Jazz poetry. Modern painting. Inventions and movies. There is science discoveries, longevity, cancer cures you know, we do not all eventually die of breast cancer thank god anymore, or some people are even starting to survive with pancreatic cancer for much longer. And so there is a, it is all a big fight against the Grim Reaper.
27:30
SM: Right.
27:31
ED: And also a fight for human dignity and freedom. And sharing really, people do not like to use the word sharing but it is to spread the wealth around to everybody. There is a decent drive, the baby boomers, a good portion of them to do just that.
27:49
SM: Um hmm. And I wanted to ask this, do you feel the Beats had a direct influence on the (19)60s and (19)70s, even though they were often identified with the (19)50s?
28:00
ED: Sure, because a lot of them live on and on and on. Kerouac died in 1969. Gregory Corso lived until (19)91. Ginsberg died in (19)90, no excuse me, Corso lasted until 2001, Ginsberg died in (19)97, and Burroughs also (19)97 but they were very active culturally. And this Beat generation was like a deliberate plan, they got together you know, they were going to call themselves a generation and they knew they had really smart men and women aboard that generation so they floated it and it worked.
28:38
SM: How did you become a Beat?
28:41
ED: Well, when I was when I was in high school, it is in my short stories, my book: Tales of Beatnik Glory. The story, one of, where I describe reading Howl when I was in high school.
28:59
SM: Okay.
29:00
ED: And I memorized it. I used to recite when me and my friends drove around drinking beer around the county courthouse, I would scream out Howl and I memorized it. It sort of saved my life. I always tell audiences I might have been an Eskimo Pie driver if it had not been for Howl.
29:21
SM: [laughs]
29:23
ED: So Howl. And then Allen became one of my best friends. And I knew all of them. Corso, Gary, Allen Ginsberg, Burroughs was a friend, Corso was a friend, Gary Snyder's a good friend. I wrote a book about Allen Ginsberg: Poetry and Life of Allen Ginsberg, so I was very tuned in to him.
29:44
SM: You know, the beats are often defined as rebels and do you think this mentality through their writings and lifestyle subconsciously filter into the boomer generation in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Were the feelings like it is okay to be different? And not be silent.
30:01
ED: That is true. It is okay to be different than they were perceived as being different. The girls wore a lot of Egyptian eye makeup modeled on Jean Paul Sartre's girlfriend Juliette Greco and they would wear sheer-toed high heels and mesh stockings, maybe a leather vest and very daring not to wear a brassiere back in (19)58 or (19)59 or they would wear these [inaudible] beatnik sandals. The guys for their part might sport a Florida maritime turtleneck sweater and a black jacket and sandals themselves. So it was a visual thing in part. And berets. Men wearing berets. Then of course when the hip you know they would never beatniks would have never have worn necklaces, it was not a few years later when the sixties hit that men started wearing necklaces, wore their hair long, and they wore robes and silk gowns and that was different. But the Beats were, came out of Second World War so they were, their dress was pretty dark and somber. Very existential. And they were, I guess you could call them rebels. You know, they smoked pot. They, they all of them knew John Coltrane riffs or knew Charlie Parker riffs. There was Lester Young. Went to Lester Young performances and knew a lot about jazz and picked up from the jazz singers use of marijuana and of course people like Neal Cassidy were; took a lot of uppers. But when I was in school in the (19)50s everybody took Benzedrine. The whole boomer generation. You know, in my opinion, the whole boomer generation got through college on coca cola and a few uppers to help them pass the test. They would never admit it but, uh.
32:27
SM: It is interesting that when I interviewed Hettie, I asked her this question, and she really well, she had some interesting comments, and that is why did the Beats want to be different in the first place? And secondly, obviously they challenged the norm during a time few people spoke up. This is kind of what the boomers did during their college age, some of them, maybe 15 percent of them because we were only talking about a percentage of the boomers, and describe you there is a link here to me between the silent generation and the boomer generation.
33:02
ED: Maybe there is always they always say that young people are more willing to shake the wall and make some changes. The older people who have been through a lot been through scrapes and through illnesses, and one or two marriages and worried about paying their bills that they have a different attitude. Many people tend to lose their youthful arrogance or their youthful; some young people can be a real pain, you know, they, they have this attitude of a, you know, I have, we have received the knowledge and 'go fuck yourself' so you know, I do not know, that's not a lot of kids but there are. I remember the socialist Irving Howe he was at a meeting and being harangued by studying was not sufficiently of the left was not enough for the people. Howe said something like this you know where you are going to be doing in a few years young man? You are going to be a dentist, so I always think of that. Sometimes I get a little static. I do a lot of college gigs and I answer their questions all of the time after my readings or lectures, there is a faction out there, very rarely, but they think they know it all without having read too many books.
34:52
SM: Yeah, that is what we try to always tell students, you know. Emotion is important. You got to have emotion when you believe in something, a passion but you also got to have knowledge. And when you have the combination of knowledge and emotion, it is hard to beat. Just all these movements took place during that period, too, because I have interviewed a lot of people and they know that the civil rights movement was kind of a model for the, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Native American, Chicano, environmental movement, a lot of different movements of that particular time that continued through today and have evolved. Were those Boomer, do you give that all credit to the boomer generation for those movements after the civil rights movement?
35:38
ED: I do not know. I think what the civil rights movement was, was a double empowerment, it was an empowerment of young blacks and also religious blacks. And also young whites, and then of course more established whites who formed bonds to decide that their goals on the surface of it were not that bad. They wanted the right to vote. They wanted an end to poll taxes and they wanted to drink water at fountains and ride buses, wherever they wanted and to use public bathrooms and restaurants. You know, and then, of course, Martin Luther King and [inaudible] brought the additional factor of, they want jobs. Jobs and economic interest between blacks and whites. So demand for economic equity, and these other, other civil rights things were I guess you can say that some of them, many of the participants were of the boomer generation. But I do not think, I do not know who invented the word Boomer, but I do not I do not think it was invented by the time of the great, by the lunch counter sit-ins or the freedom riots in (19)61.
36:17
SM: Right.
37:10
ED: The pool integration in (19)62. The commercial worship in (19)53. Selma in (19)65, voter registration and John Lewis; (19)56, (19)57, leading to the portion of (19)64 and Voting Rights Act in (19)68, the Great Society Acts. The real big cram with the boomer generation, was the Great Society legislation where basically a white congress voted in place beginning in the four ̶
38:03
SM: Uh huh.
38:03
ED: A law, the Medicare, all the other karmic acts, all the great, great society cats ̶
38:16
SM: Did you come in this is an area that, you know, you end the year with the Fugs and all the music? How important? Obviously we know it is but I like your thoughts on the music of that of the boomer generation, the music of the (19)60s in the (19)70s. And I talk about the music, it is not it is not just all the great bands and performers, the folk musicians, Motown. Just your comment and how important that was for this seventy million people. And second part of this question is, when I talked to Pete Seeger this past weekend, he talked about that, you know, he was always raised with the belief based on how his father raised him that that music was it's the words is what's important. It is not so much the musicians as it is the words of the young people will take the social messages and people take the social messages, and they will always remember them and pass them on. And there seem to be a lot of messages in the music of this particular time, just your thoughts and how important music was to the 70 million boomer generation. And I am going to change my tape here one second. Certainly you are involved in this. If you could speak up just a little louder too, thanks.
39:48
ED: Well of course, music is always important to every nation in every civilization. What was different about the music of the (19)60s into the (19)70s was that as I mentioned, there was a huge rise of recording technology so that you could do multitrack recording and then overdub and add vocals. Up till the early (19)60s the recording was done of like ten generation mono to mono. In other words, the orchestra would play on a mono between two fancy tape recorders then Frank Sinatra would lay down his vocals. And then they would run the same tape over, and then they would add the harmony singers and maybe some strings and other instruments. So it was very labor intensive. The beginning was the Beatles in (19)64 or (19)65, with the Fugs and other bands this new technology was suddenly there. And there were all these marvelous amplifiers. And more importantly, the music could be heard because they were out there, the sound systems that evolved even in little clubs but also in big places such as baseball stadiums, bigger venues so that the word could star in the mix. And that words, assumed great importance, because of the impact of people like Woody Guthrie and Harry Smith's anthology of American folk music, and the other Folkways albums.
41:38
SM: Mmm hmm.
41:38
ED: They would listen to it and then things like Pete Seeger who adopted a song he learned from a woman I think in North Carolina, and it became We Shall Overcome.
41:49
SM: Right.
41:50
ED: And then all the religious songs came about: Ain't Going to Study War No More and everybody was adopting these religious tunes Down by the River Side and We Shall Overcome. I have Been Buked and I have Been Scorned from the great March on Washington: Mahalia Jackson and Peter, Paul and Mary adopting folk music, folk songs, simple American folk songs, or European folk songs, adopting them. Putting secret messages in them, you know. Folk music, it often exists, like the Bible and has layers of meanings We Shall Overcome can be just as much of "we'll have a good life" but it also can mean we'll end slavery or we'll end racism or we'll win social equity. All these great songs evolved and they were singable, and of course music is more memorable. All ̶ We are Saying is Give Peace a Chance, that John Lennon wrote in 1969. You know, that, that did more to in the war in Vietnam, than any street demonstration.
43:15
SM: If you were to pinpoint, I know, there is so many of them, and it's not fair to others to exclude them but if you were to pick three, four or five of the top entertainers from that era, that really were the top echelon of that kind of music, who would they be?
43:34
ED: What were you talking about?
43:35
The musicians that influenced the boomers, whether they be folk musicians, rock bands, or Motown singers.
43:45
ED: Well who knows you know, you could start out with popular singers, some more scholarly and get into other things you could hear. You could hear Elvis Presley and then say, well what is this rockabilly stuff maybe I should look more into it ̶
44:11
SM: Mm Hmm.
44:11
ED: You know, you start with Elvis or you might start with Mac the Knife by Bobby Darin and then go discover Bertolt Brecht that way. So you know, there are the obvious great musicians, Elvis, the Beatles, of course Bob Dylan, Joan Baez who had this huge impact on the generation with Hush Little Children Do not You Cry all that first album All My Trials. But somehow (Bob) Stravinski had a big influence on the avant-garde and people who wanted to change the world.
44:58
SM: Mm Hmm.
45:02
ED: I knew [inaudible] Stravinski and Joan Baez personally [inaudible] but then you go back into Bill Haley and the Fleshtones and Mickey and Sylvia: Love is Strange. Mr. Earl, that song. I do not know there was a lot of rock and roll that people were exposed to that, it truly was the harbinger of racial mingling.
45:31
SM: Mm Hmm.
45:31
ED: It was obviously a black phenomenon as was jazz. I grew up in Kansas City, I was exposed to a lot of jazz when I was a kid, but just I thought it was just regular music. I did not realize that when I was very young [inaudible] it was just good dance music.
46:03
SM: You mentioned that you thought John Lennon's music or song had a lot to do with ending the war as anything. What, why? Why did the war in Vietnam end in your opinion?
46:19
ED: Well, yes. Well, you know, it takes a long time, they started it basically, they started doing the defoliation in 1962 [inaudible] in (19)63, the supposition of the end and then, it did not really begin until (19)65 and then (19)66 through [inaudible] (19)68 I think because of all the scholar activists, all the people that were studying what was going on while raising their voices against it. And then the huge anti-draft movement.
47:09
SM: Uh huh.
47:10
ED: It took, people had to spend their whole lives every day protesting and raising money to stop this war. And the whole; it was: you know, they wanted to just like MacArthur wanted to drop H-bombs on North Vietnam, North Korea, or China on the border between North Korea and China. So too did people like General LeMay wanted to drop nuclear weapons on China.
47:41
SM: Yes. Yup.
47:39
ED: So it was what we prevented, more than anything. It was written that Nixon was thinking of using nuclear weapons in 1969. And so they sang John Lennon's Give Peace a Chance at the mobilization rally in DC in the fall of 1969 and Nixon was aware of that demonstration and said he realized [inaudible] and demonstrations all over America that they could not increase the war in Vietnam and they had to start pulling it back. A long, long I mean it was (19)75, six years and then hounded him out of office. I mean you know, it was so evil and such an injustice. However, they can build walls, honoring the dead, and I am sorry, there were any dead there and veterans, you can build a wall between here and the moon, but you are not going to do away with the evil of the Vietnam War. Never.
48:49
SM: What, in your opinion, were the best books that were that the boomers read in their growing up years that may have had an influence on them?
48:58
ED: I have no idea. I had my own life by then. I was reading my own classics. I have a question here and then; I just cannot figure out figure out what; you know, they start out reading books you know, Catcher in the Rye and branch out into you know different uh; they might have read, read Che Guevara's diary as part of a college class. They might have; who knows what avenues to read lead.
49:33
SM: I know that a lot of people with Mao's book. Chairman Mao's book.
49:39
ED: Yeah, because the, I forget what group was Maoist but they printed a lot of those. I had a bookstore. I had a bookstore for a number of years on the lower east side and somehow I would get these little red books and they were like free, they would get dropped off.
49:58
SM: [laughs]
49:58
ED: And they would urge me to sell them.
50:01
SM: Right. I have a question here on trust. Um, one of the things that this is this is definitely part of the boomer generation is a lot of the leaders lying to, lying to them and lying to the American public. Because you saw that was what Watergate was all about and certainly, Lyndon Johnson, the Gulf of Tonkin, Eisenhower in the U2 incident, even in recent years, President Kennedy and his linkage to the Coup of Diem and knew and of course, Ronald Reagan. It seems like at that particular period, I can remember when I was in college, and I went to SUNY Binghamton, a lot of students did not trust anybody. They did not trust the president, they did not trust anybody in any leadership role, whether it be vice president of Student Affairs, they did not trust the minister in the church, the rabbi, the head of a corporation, they did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility. And, and I have seen, I do not know if that has been passed down to their kids. But my question is basically this, I was in a Psychology 101 class in my first year of college and I remember the psychology professors telling the students that if you cannot trust in your life, then you will not be a success in life. That trust is a very important quality and I am just want your ̶
51:24
ED: Tell that to John D. Rockefeller who you know, used distrust to take over all of the oil in America. I do not know it is a terrible thing to have. On one level, it's the Beavis and Butthead isolation of American civilization where there is a culture of impoliteness that spreads which is not that good ̶ you see it at events and public all over the place, sort of against general rudeness that's one thing. Another thing is, you grow up and every ̶ everything is a lie so you can either isolate yourself from everything and we were told basically to be existentialists, to be alien; and be alienated by the fifties. Being alienated [inaudible] say James Dean or Marlon Brando that was a public icon to be alienated. So, but if you take it to the extreme and feel alienated from all this, then you can become isolated or you become a pawn of the military industrial complex or a right wing capitalist who will take advantage of that alienation. You have great authoritarian control, and you have you know, the situation of 1984, where everybody is suspicious and there is rule and neo-fascism. So it is a difficult situation because especially when the government has shown for so many decades to have lied so much about many things. Even some of our elections like the 2000 election. So, the idea of having stolen elections [inaudible] computer voting, wars you do not know what they really mean. Can you really count on the government? And so you say fuck it I am just going to drink beer, play a little golf and head off into the sunset.
53:46
SM: What does that mean to activism though?
53:49
ED: Well, some people have it in their blood, you know, they vow to go out in a blaze of leaflets. My vow was to always stay very active in local politics. I stay active and I think a lot of people in our generation too, I mean, I admired people like Tom Hayden for instance.
54:07
SM: I interviewed him for this project.
54:10
ED: I stayed pretty active.
54:15
SM: When the best history books are written, you know they are usually written fifty years after a period. What do you think they will be saying about the boomer generation?
54:27
ED: I do not know. They may not even use the word boomer generation.
54:31
SM: Hmm.
54:31
ED: They may put, they may decide that the generation began with the first experiment in the Manhattan Project in 1939 or (19)40. They may begin it with Einstein's letter to Roosevelt to build the bomb. They may begin it at some date that Marian Anderson's concert at the ̶
54:58
SM: Sure.
55:01
ED: I do not know. Or they may be accepted as the bona fide movement that lead to maybe something wonderful happening in the next twenty or thirty years, I do not know [inaudible] the spirit to America that will transform.
55:20
SM: The last part of the interview is just quick responses to just some terms or names.
55:25
ED: I am not going to be able to talk anymore. I got to get to a meeting. You should take your email you were supposed to call me at one. You are welcome to call another day. And I can conclude.
55:36
SM: Okay.
55:37
ED: I got to run and get to a meeting.
55:40
SM: All right.
55:40
ED: But you can call, you know what day you want to call?
55:44
SM: Well. I am going back and forth between New York, somebody just had open heart surgery up there.
55:51
ED: Who did?
55:52
SM: One of my relatives.
55:53
ED: Oh well, sometime within the next few days, I do not care. Call any time after noon, after like one and I am available. I just got to run to a meeting that I forgot about.
56:05
SM: All right, well, I only have about fifteen more. I think this, when we left the last time, I think I only have about twenty – twenty-five minutes and that will be it.
56:15
ED: Ok.
56:16
SM: Because it is basically there is just one little section left. But I want to ask a couple questions before I get into you responding to some of the personalities and the terms from that era. Could you go a little bit more into how the Beats, how important the Beats were in shaping the boomer generation, just for their attitudes and the way they lived.
56:46
ED: Um, well, define these people: Corso, Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg, Huncke. In certain ways Charlie Parker and Diane Di Prima, in other ways Gary Snyder. They came out of the World War II generation out of the (19)40s and out of the post war boom, the thought boom of the release in the United States after World War II the created abstract expressionism, detective novels. And both from the synthesis of the east and west coast. The Beat generation who flourished with the beginning with the publication of Howl and they flourished as a kind of statement against the McCarthy era and against the squareness and the constrained culture of the 1950s and caused the generation of the boomers, so-called boomers to relax a little bit and not to be afraid to be more individualistic and follow their own life. America always has had a streak of individualism and people who do not motivate it but the Beats helped push the generation along the so-called boomer generation and also by demanding more freedom under the Bill of Rights. The battle of William Burroughs over publication of Naked Lunch and the battle around his thirst for sexual freedom and for acceptance of overt homosexuality and for the fight, the struggles, you know, the Feds tried to stomp down Howl when it came out and so he helped prevail on that and Allen also helped a lot in the trial, the court case where they tried to squash Naked Lunch. So they helped create a greater sense of freedom so that in our own time shows like The Sopranos even or some of these shows that use language and overt gayness on television and movies. The Beats helped liberate the personal freedom areas and art forms. They had a big hand in helping to set the new freedoms.
59:45
SM: Hmm. Through the years as some of the Beats are getting older, whether it be Burrows, Ginsberg or Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Ann Waldman, who was one of the younger ones, Snyder, Amiri Baraka and Ken Kesey, yourself. What did you think of this boomer generation? They were, you were a little older. And what was the feeling when some of these things were happening? Because obviously, the Beats in the (19)50s were pretty tight knit group. And, and there is a lot of camaraderie there. And then this new generation is happening with all these issues and whether it be drugs, the music, the dress codes, and everything, just your thoughts on how, what they thought of this generation when you were around them.
1:00:45
ED: I did not even realize anything about this thing called boomer generation until a few years ago, I mean, it did not occur to me. I mean it is obvious that when you have a literary generation, or a musical generation or a painting generation that there will come along, another generation nipping at the heels. And as you walk off the plank of life, they will emerge on the deck of the ship and say, it's all ours! So I do not know, I did not really think about them. I knew that there were always going to be younger, emerging art forms and artists but I did not think of it in terms of a general huge mass of people called the boomer generation. Again, what is the designation? They were born after the atomic bomb was dropped?
1:01:36
SM: Yeah, in 1946 to (19)64 that was the years they put down for them.
1:01:43
ED: They are all spoiled brats!
1:01:46
SM: [laughs]
1:01:46
ED: They swelled in on an empire that was not yet beginning to fade. So they, they were kind of spoiled little [inaudible] thinking everybody would cow tow to the United States. The battles seemed to be over.
1:02:08
SM: What is really interesting is that of all the Beats that I remember, and it is the Allen Ginsberg seemed to be around everywhere. Uh, and uh
1:02:20
ED: He had the metabolism of a chipmunk. He had a high metabolism. And if you look at history, I mean look, I wrote a book on Allen Ginsberg's life called The Poetry and Life of Allen Ginsberg. And in research and I knew him intimately for, oh from 1964 till he died in the spring of (19)97, so thirty-three years.
1:02:42
SM: Mm hmm.
1:02:43
ED: We were in almost daily contact so I realized what fanatic, fantastic energy, the guy had, he never really had to sleep. Sometimes I stayed at his house when I was in New York on business and he would be up in the middle of night doing work. I do not know if he ever really slept. He had a high metabolism and he was always in motion, he did more benefits than anybody in world culture. He must have done thousands of benefits for a wide variety of causes. But also, personal appearances at colleges here, in China, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Europe, all over Europe and India. He was always giving readings. And so I was always amazed at the huge numbers wide the wide cultural swath he made. People were coming from India from China from Japan. I mean, he was famous in Japan from Italy from Germany from France from England, from Scotland, from Wales. The guy at cultural connections to a huge plethora of countries. Pretty amazing.
1:03:58
SM: I just remember that time that he was on TV with William Buckley. Do you remember that?
1:04:02
ED: I did not see that show but I heard about it.
1:04:07
SM: Yeah, it was amazing because Buckley of course, being the conservative that he was, was fascinated by him. Literally fascinated.
1:04:15
ED: Well, they were friends. One good thing about Buckley, of course, not my cup of tea, but nevertheless, you know, took the stance against the far right. The anti-Semitic right and also was capable of having friends among liberals. He was a friend of Howard Lowenstein and in a way was a friend of Allen Ginsberg.
1:04:42
SM: You were in a band called the Fugs. How did the boomers look to that group?
1:04:51
ED: Oh, I do not know. We still get fan mail some younger people. I do not know. I am not sure how they? (19)46? Well, there was one born in the late (19)40s and early (19)50s would have been, could have been Fugs fans, [inaudible] around (19)67 or (19)68.
1:05:13
SM: Right.
1:05:13
ED: I remember they were always hiding Fugs records from their parents.
1:05:01
SM: [laughs]
1:05:10
ED: They would write in and complain that their Fugs records, that their parents had broken a Fugs record across their father's knee or something. They were indignant. If the definition is (19)46 and onwards then many of them, heck, probably our whole fan base was boomers.
1:05:38
SM: If you were described the Fugs' music, how would you put it in a few words or a few sentences?
1:05:50
ED: Well, it grew. It started out as a kind of primitive, acoustical folk music. We did not go to Juilliard School, so we taught ourselves. We grew up in the great school of American Jazz, American folk music and American civil rights songs and American rock and roll. Everything from, and also Country and Western and Hasidic. You know, we brought a lot of Jewish melodies to our music. I grew up in the happening, movement. So we were a happening. We were spontaneous. We were like action painting but for music. But over the years, our music, and a mixture through what was artful and experimentations that our music grew and grew in skill and quality. So by the time we did our final records for Warner Brothers, it evolved into [inaudible]. We rose up and did a major album. So our music always grew. We started out primitive. Got less primitive. Got into different types of music. So now like forty-five years after our founding, I have had a band together for twenty-five years and they are very, very, very accomplished. So, how to describe it? They have to listen to us. The Fugs are not a visual thing. We are all we are our songs. All The Fugs ever will be even apart from the stage remains the recording studio and live. We are the ̶ our stage.
1:07:32
SM: When we just had the fortieth anniversary of Woodstock, in fact, I think the last when I spoke to you the first time it was a couple of weeks before the big happening was going to take place and Richie was going to open, Richie Havens. I think you had a concert there in fact. What when you look at that Woodstock, do you think that that was more about fun, more about culture? More about issues? What, how would you describe it?
1:08:06
ED: Well, it was an act, part activism and part planning. I mean I guess 300,000 young people pushed out to Sullivan County you know and many of them were against the war in Vietnam, many of them wanting a new, a new living arrangement. Living outdoors so it was kind of a good commune. The food was free cooked by Wavy Gravy and the hog farm. Wavy Gravy you know, into the microphone, at I think it was on the first night, or? First morning or second morning of Woodstock? Said, "What I have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400,000 people." And then it also had the kind of medical system that we need in the United States, free medical care. I have a good I have a doctor friend who's now an eminent neurologist, who was a volunteer at the freak-out tent at Woodstock, so people who were having medical problems that got free medical attention from volunteer doctors/ Plus free food. The ticket system broke down so there was free music. There was a celebration of beautiful farmland it was on a huge I think 50 or 60 acre farm; a dairy farm. Celebrate the beautiful American out of doors. Then celebrate also the kind of music that was rising up at that time with Jimi Hendrix and his great National Anthem which was performed at dawn on the final day with this new miraculous instrument in the United States called the wah, wah pedal and his active patriotism. In its own way. It was very patriotic. He set the tone for the (19)60s with that one National Anthem. All the other singing? I do not know, it was also a triumph of technology because it was not until a year or so before that you could play the music through speakers that can be heard by 400,000 people so the technology rose very quickly. With Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young and the others. So it was good. Technology, sharing, free medical care, all the outdoors. And then of course, a lot of pot and I guess there was acid there. Mainly pot I think. And beer. Pot, beer, acid, rock and roll, technology, love of the out of doors and having a good time.
1:10:59
SM: Who did you personally look up to? Who were your ̶ Well, I am not going to overstate this thing. Who are your heroes? Or who were the role models that inspired you?
1:11:12
ED: From those days?
1:11:13
SM: From those days or anytime? How did you become who you became?
1:11:21
ED: I do not know. I had heroes. It's like when they asked Michael Dukakis who were his heroes from the (19)88 election. You find heroes in your life from you know, Sunday school all the way up to performers and writers of course, teachers, I had a bunch of teachers [inaudible] like Sappho [inaudible] here other musicians that I admired [inaudible] when I was a kid. And also, rock and roll stars you know that rose later. I do not know. When I became an adult, Allen Ginsberg became my mentor. Carl Wilson before he was my mentor. [inaudible] friend, early on was one of my mentors. I looked to people for advice. You know, I am reading [inaudible] normally every week I read his stories for a while. I do not know, Norman Thomas was a mentor. Ghandi was a mentor. John Paul Sarte was big in my mind, and Samuel Beckett was an early hero as a writer and then somebody to emulate, at least in his persistence and overcoming his really [inaudible] world worldview with great art.
1:13:03
SM: How would you like to be remembered? What would? When you are gone what do you would, would you would like people to say about you? Or hope that people would say about you and secondly your writing. Your gift to people?
1:13:23
ED: Well, I hope with respect to my writings that they will, find, poems inside the body of my writing or short stories or other kinds of [inaudible] for 300 years from now.
1:13:43
SM: It in that this is very general and, and maybe impossible to answer but if you were to, if we were to ever bury seventy million people in one grave, which is the boomer generation and we put a tombstone on there, what do you think the, the epithet was say? The epitaph?
1:14:16
ED: [singing voice] Things go better with Coca Cola.
1:14:24
SM: Laughs.
1:14:25
ED: [singing voice] Better with Coke. Or we came, we saw. The word is not conquered. We came, we saw, we completed, man. I mean, you know, it is a generation. They come, they go. They are doomed. We used a plank image before. I mean, you know, you get born. What is it that Samuel Beckett said? You part with your? [inaudible] other ways to stride the grave really, it is not sing-song all the way but the idea is to have fun. One thing about the boomer generation is that their parents, having lived through World War II and all the, which really was a great triumph of American civilization. You know America defeated the militaristic Japanese which really is a wonderful thing. And so that generation told their kids, you know, have a little fun. You know? So I think the boomer generation was not afraid to have fun. [inaudible] now they are getting old.
1:15:50
SM: Let us hope that they are still having fun.
1:15:51
ED: Oh, well their arthritis causes them to not have as much fun.
1:15:55
SM: Yeah. Two quotes that come out of this era. One was one that Bobby Kennedy used a lot and another one was a Peter Max one. And, and the question is, which one better defined the boomer generation. And of course, the Bobby Kennedy one is, some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not? And the other one is Peter Max, You do your thing, and I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. Those are two extremes.
1:16:32
ED: The quotes a little hippie dippy. I mean, you know [inaudible] that is the whole problem with 'do your own thing'. You know, I mean, that is what Hitler would say. Doing your thing is always um, problematic. But Robert Kennedy, Robert's, really, now that I am getting on in years, Robert Kennedy is emerging as a personal hero. I writing a book about him but it I do not know if it will take long enough to; if I figure out how many books to write, maybe I'll finally write my book about Robert Kennedy.
1:16:32
SM: Let me switch deep here and then we will get into these questions on the people hold on a second.
(Only tape one of the interview is available)
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Interview with Ed Sanders
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Sanders, Ed ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Poets, American, Singers--United States; Human rights workers; Environmentalists—United States; Authors; Publishers; Sanders, Ed--Interviews
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Ed Sanders is a poet, author, musician, and activist who grew up in the state of Missouri. He attended the University of Missouri and New York University where he earned his Bachelor's degree in Ancient Greek. After college, he opened the Peace Eye Bookstore in New York City and started <em>Fuck You: A Magazine of the Arts</em>. Allen Ginsberg, Ezra Pound, and Dylan Thomas were all early influences as Sanders tried to bridge the concerns of Beat Poetry and the counterculture of the 1960s. He is the author of many collections of poetry where he received several honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation. Sanders has written many books of prose, a non-fiction book, <em>The Family</em>, and published a bi-weekly newspaper, the <em>Woodstock Journal</em>. He is the founding member of the satirical and subversive folk-rock music group, The Fugs.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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ND
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.107
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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77:17
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c457856abb4886eee1e189755a557783.mp3
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-01
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Rudd
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, anti-war activist and he was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to \"fight for imperialism\" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6539,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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175:20
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. </span>
Subject LCSH
Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mark Rudd
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 1 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing one, two, testing. I found that Mark, before I get with the questions that even the boomer administrators who run universities today have a tendency and a fear of going back to what was.
MR (00:00:18):
Right.
SM (00:00:18):
Because there is a symbol that it is disruption, and anyways.
MR (00:00:28):
One question is not... was not Westchester State at one point a historically black college, or am I confused?
SM (00:00:32):
No-no, just the reverse. Back in the early (19)50s and right into the (19)60s, there were very few African-American students at Westchester University. In fact, it has become a very sensitive issue at programs dealing with Dr. King in the past couple years because more and more African-American students who were at the university during that, that timeframe had to live off campus.
MR (00:00:58):
Right.
SM (00:01:00):
They were not allowed to live in residence halls. And now obviously that is changed a lot, and we have probably one of the largest African American populations in the state system with almost 10 percent of our campus being African American students.
MR (00:01:15):
10 percent?
SM (00:01:17):
10 percent.
MR (00:01:18):
And Westchester... Westchester is a largely African American town, is not it?
SM (00:01:22):
Oh, no. Westchester is mostly a white, conservative, middle to upper class town. It is the 25th richest area in America.
MR (00:01:34):
Well, what is the... There were demonstrations in around (19)63, (19)62, (19)63, and (19)64 in Westchester. Kathy Wilkerson writes about them in her autobiography.
SM (00:01:53):
I have not read her autobiography. I know there were protests at Westchester. Of course, Bayard Rustin is from Westchester, and Bayard was a graduate of Henderson High School. He was a star athlete on the football team, but he was not allowed to even go to the movie theater.
MR (00:02:13):
Right.
SM (00:02:13):
And he had to sit upstairs and he was arrested as a young high school student before he went off to Cheney. And we are talking now the forties and the early (19)50s. And so historically, it has had some major issues. And the most recent issue was the naming of Bayard Rustin High School, which became a national issue because he was going to be named in the third high school. And there was a group of people that wanted to prevent him because first off, he was a former communist. Secondly, even though they did not say it was because he was gay. And there are a lot of reasons, and I was involved with about 50 or 60 other people and trying to prevent this name change from going back to some other name. And so that the community itself, the university is much more progressive than obviously the community. In some sense, the community, even though it has become more liberal in some of its administrators, I mean politicians, it is still got a long way to go in terms of social issues.
MR (00:03:24):
Right. What is the historic black college? Is it Lincoln?
SM (00:03:28):
Oh, no, the historic black college, there is two of them. Lincoln is the private school, and that is only about 25 miles from Westchester University and then Cheney University.
MR (00:03:39):
Oh, Cheney.
SM (00:03:40):
And that is this campus of a little over 3000, and it has been struggling to survive. It has had a lot of problems financially with weak administrators and fewer students coming, but they have just hired a president the past two years. It is keeping it going. They have been hiring some pretty good administrators, and it will always be there because it is one of the historic schools.
MR (00:04:05):
Well, I hope so. It is coming up February 1st. Is today February 1st?
SM (00:04:11):
Yes, it is today.
MR (00:04:12):
This is a good place to start. February 1st, 50 years ago, 1960 was the day that black students from the historic black college in Greensboro, North Carolina sat in at the Woolworths lunch counter. And that was the beginning of an almost spontaneous uprising of black students from historic black colleges, from all black colleges in the South. Their role in the civil rights movement often does not get acknowledged much, or at least it does. People know about it, who know about the history, but most people who do not know about the history do not know much about the Civil Rights Movement, how it was organized or how it happened, and they think it was all Martin Luther King's dream.
SM (00:05:09):
It is interesting in the interviews that I have had so far, when we talk about the (19)50s, those Civil Rights events, and then very early in the early (19)60s, (19)60s and 61, how much was hidden? So people that people did not know, and so everything looked like things were okay in the (19)50s, but in reality they were terrible.
MR (00:05:32):
Right. It was not the golden era.
SM (00:05:34):
Mark, what-
MR (00:05:35):
My wife was watching Mad Men and freaking out over the, remembering the position of women at that time.
SM (00:05:42):
Oh, yeah. Well, definitely. You were young. Mark, when did you first recognize or know what was going on? What happened February 1st? I-
MR (00:05:54):
Think it was the demonstrations and the protest and civil disobedience of black people in the South. I must have been on February 1st, 1960. I was 12 years old, and I looked at... Saw these images of young people sitting in and it just stopped me. I had to pay attention.
SM (00:06:24):
So you were sensitive very early on?
MR (00:06:27):
Well, not hypersensitive, considering that I did not know any black people and personally, I lived in an all-white suburb of Newark, New Jersey and New York City. And I would not call myself hypersensitive. I still went about my 12-year-old things, but I always was the kind of person who paid attention to current events. I loved current events.
SM (00:07:04):
Well-
MR (00:07:05):
I was the kind of kid who I always read magazines and newspapers, and there was something... I think it was growing up in the shadow of World War II. Current events.
SM (00:07:20):
Were you one of those individuals that read The Weekly Reader that had all the political news for elementary school kids?
MR (00:07:26):
My parents had Time and Life. That, I assume. I would read the newspaper. I read the New York Times every day in high school, but we could get it at Study Hall and I get it for free and something. I read... No, my Weekly Reader when I was a little kid, I suppose.
SM (00:07:55):
I kept all mine. I still have them in stacks.
MR (00:07:58):
Oh, so you were that kind of person also?
SM (00:07:59):
Yes. And in fact, I, they are treasures to me because when John Kennedy was running for president and all those things. I have them in my Weekly Readers. Great pictures. Most people threw them out. I kept them.
MR (00:08:13):
How old are you?
SM (00:08:14):
Oh, I am 62.
MR (00:08:16):
Oh, we are the same age.
SM (00:08:17):
Yep. (19)47. We are in (19)47. December 27th of (19)47.
MR (00:08:24):
Well, I am six months older then.
SM (00:08:27):
Well, we are in that same group. I was at Binghamton when you were at Columbia. I knew all about what you were doing when I was a student there. I want to ask you-
MR (00:08:36):
I did not catch that you were at Binghamton?
SM (00:08:39):
Yes. I went Binghamton University.
MR (00:08:40):
Right-right-right.
SM (00:08:41):
It was Harper College. In fact, last week I interviewed Richie Havens and I asked Richie a question. I said, Richie, "Do you remember your first college concert?" And he said, "Yes." And then I said, "Well, I remember you when you came to my school. It was Harper College, the Arts and Science School at Binghamton." And he said, "That is unbelievable, because that was my first concert." That was 1967.
MR (00:09:07):
That is wonderful. Well, I have a dear friend who is the same age as us who went to Harper. I would not know her... Oh, it is Marsh. Her name is Linda Marsh.
SM (00:09:18):
Linda Marsh.
MR (00:09:19):
She was from Western New York State and she went to Harper.
SM (00:09:25):
Yeah. Well, it is a great school.
MR (00:09:26):
And then later they, several key Columbia people who had reported us. Immanuel Wallerstein.
SM (00:09:31):
Oh yes.
MR (00:09:36):
Terry Hopkins. Several other people jumped over to Harper.
SM (00:09:45):
Yeah. Well, it is a great school. One of my former professors, Dr. Kadish is still there. All the rest of them have either retired or died.
MR (00:09:52):
I just met a guy named Melvyn Dubofsky, labor historian, who did his whole career there. Do you know him?
SM (00:09:59):
That name rings a bell.
MR (00:10:01):
Yep. Yeah. I just met him the other day.
SM (00:10:05):
I have a question. This is a very important year coming up. This is the 40th anniversary of the Remembrance of the Tragedy at Kent State.
MR (00:10:12):
Yes.
SM (00:10:13):
And I know that if Allison Krause's sister and Alan Canfora are organizing the Remembrance event, hoping lots of people come back and they got these tapes for... They found out the real truth about who gave the order to shoot. So there is a lot of things that are going to take place at this year's event. But in your book, I think I have told you, your book is superb, right? I have underlined it. I have read it. I was rereading my underline. So I am basing my questions on a lot of the things you have written about for more explanation. You talk about Kent State in your book. How about-about had one of the strongest SDS groups.
MR (00:10:52):
Yes.
SM (00:10:52):
Even though when the tragedy at Kent State happened, people were saying, "Kent State of all places?"
MR (00:11:00):
Yes.
SM (00:11:00):
What was it about Kent State University that was different than the others with respect to SDS and its activism?
MR (00:11:06):
Well, I do not know if I can fully answer that. See oftentimes I use Kent State as an example of a state school that was in revolt. So we tried to portray it as not different, but I actually think it was some kind of conjunction of its late location in a demographic. It mostly took the children of the upper working class and the lower middle class from northeastern Ohio. Akron was the biggest city and that was the tire maker. That was-
SM (00:12:04):
Yes.
MR (00:12:04):
-the place where tires were made. And so you had this whole industrial union kind of an ethos. Then you had Jewish communists, Jewish kids of Communists and social backgrounds from Cleveland. Quite a few there. In fact, that the chapter had a... I think one wrote about this, but one of the oddest aspects of the shooting was that three out of four of the victims, the people who died rather, were Jewish on a campus that was only three or 4 percent Jewish.
SM (00:12:58):
Yes.
MR (00:12:58):
And in the chapter, the SKS chapter, it was not a majority Jewish, but it had a few of the leaders were Jewish. So you had this kind of mix that I always thought the people there were very serious. They did not have a lot of money. And even at Columbia, the chapter was not made up of really wealthy people, but they were not like elitist kids, but they were very serious. On the other hand, I have been back several times, twice actually in the last decade, and I have noticed that it is a very cold place, meaning that only a minority wants to acknowledge that the crimes of the shootings-
SM (00:13:54):
Yeah.
MR (00:14:00):
-and a lot of people still to this day say that the victims deserved it.
SM (00:14:07):
Yeah. When you just-
MR (00:14:09):
Not sure I answered your question.
SM (00:14:12):
Yeah, it does. I think the whole thing, this tape, you are, are you aware of the tape that is going to be played?
MR (00:14:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I am in touch with Allen.
SM (00:14:19):
Yeah. Well, I tell you, it is going... Are you going to be able to come back?
MR (00:14:24):
I do not know. I have not figured it out yet.
SM (00:14:27):
I would love to see you. I would love to meet you because-
MR (00:14:29):
Are you there going to be there?
SM (00:14:30):
Yeah, I am going to be there. I have been there the three of the last five years. Because I feel it is important. I took students at a high university back in the fourth remembrance year when Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden were there, and Julian Bond and Holly Near. And in those days, there was a more... We want to make this an educational experiences for all the college students in Ohio. So I worked at Ohio University, and I brought students back, and we learned the importance of communication. And when you do not communicate, this is what happens. And that is been lost. But I thank the Lord we had the Allens and the [inaudible] and Allison Cross's sister, working to make this continue.
MR (00:15:20):
One year... When was that? I think it was (19)95. They asked me to, if I would play the role of one of the four in the march and the role of Allison Krause and her mother was there, and we walked together and I held the first half hour of the vigil. That is done all night.
SM (00:15:52):
Yes.
MR (00:15:52):
I stood with flowers that they gave me playing the role of Allison Krause for the first half hour. And I put them down on, this was on the spot where she was killed. I put them down on the ground. Then the next morning around noon, the parking lot was reopened again. And I went to that spot, and all the flowers had been run over by cars.
SM (00:16:18):
Oh, geez.
MR (00:16:18):
It is a cold place.
SM (00:16:23):
Yeah. Last year I was at Jeff Miller's spot, and what you do, you have a half hour shifts and it goes all throughout the night.
MR (00:16:33):
Yeah.
SM (00:16:34):
And I was there for a one to 1:30 for Jeff. It was very kind of chilly too. But I was at that spot this year, you know, hold the candle.
MR (00:16:43):
Yeah.
SM (00:16:44):
Yep. And then of course, the march every year, the candlelight march where you walk around the campus and everything with the candle lights.
MR (00:16:52):
It is a good thing.
SM (00:16:54):
Yeah. I think it is important as a member of the more radical segment of the Vietnam generation, and again, I am talking more about the activists now or the organizers... I know how important Che Guevara and Mao Zedong as Sunni Binghamton, people were walking around with those red Mao Zedong, little booklets and everything. They were very popular. But what was it about she Che Guevara and Mao Zedong that really turned on the anti-war group?
MR (00:17:25):
That was the idea of the heroism of liberation. And we live in a country where the politicians are anal and are corrupt and are [inaudible] mouthed, and they are an embarrassment. So is not it wonderful to have some notion that somewhere in the world people are heroic and altruistic?
SM (00:18:01):
Well, some of some people that I have talked to in my interviews, and again, as I do more and more interviews, I get more and more different responses. And then I use some of those responses in my upcoming interviews. One of, not so much about Che Guevara, but when they talk about Mao Zedong, they call him a murderer. And because of the cultural revolution and all the millions that he killed, and so they have a tendency to attack the activists of the (19)60s as "Why would they be linked to a murder?"
MR (00:18:30):
Well, see, the idea of revolution, especially armed revolution, is that it is a smaller amount of violence than the great amount of violence the system in China, they had brutalism and they had up until the 20th century and terrible poverty and degradation, and this is true still in a lot of parts world, including China. But the idea that you could create an aesthetic and that revolutionary violence to do it is a great heroic. We thought we were living through a heroic moment in history. And violence, if you have to do violence, is like a war. It was a war for liberation. Obviously... It was incredibly utopian to think that a whole society could be remade along, egalitarian and [inaudible]. And myself, I will probably not make that mistake again. But at the time, we were incredibly idealistic. I thought that the world could be remade. Sam Green, the filmmaker who made the Weather Underground movie made now has a new movie called Utopia and Foreign Movement. And it is about, four examples of utopianism of better or worse. And his view is that there is no more utopianism. And that is a problem too.
SM (00:20:38):
Well, that was one of my questions coming up is when you use smaller amounts of violence as opposed to the larger amounts of violence, do not you think that backfires? Dr. King he always professed non-violent approach and I think you mentioned in your book that was more of a gradualist approach, and-
MR (00:21:02):
But yeah, I have come around to it to a nonviolent strategy too, of advocating a nonviolent strategy in all chains. Because I do recognize the inherent problems with violence, demonizing the enemy, and creating the... You still there?
SM (00:21:26):
Yep. I am here.
MR (00:21:27):
And creating the cycle of revenge, et cetera. So I have come to that. But no, there were in the (19)60s, remember that was the era. This is one of the most difficult things to convey to young people. That was the era of decolonization in the world. And many of the decolonization struggles were violent. Now in India was not violent. They had a great leader with a great philosophy, but the results did not look so good at the time. China, which had a violent revolution, seemed to be made making much greater progress than India, which was still a class society in the (19)60s, and still is. Although it does have the largest middle class in the world, which I guess improves the life of 150 million people, it has still got about a billion people who are in terrible poverty. So again, we were utopians. We thought that China was a better model than India. We thought that Cuba was making very great progress and still Cuba is a great model in some ways. I mean, if one asks the following question, "Where would you rather be at the bottom of society in Cuba or in one of the American neo colony, the Central America. Who has a greater opportunity for life, a Cuban [inaudible] or a Honduras [inaudible]?"
SM (00:23:08):
So what was what is really amazing is when you study the history of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and you look at Dr. King and study the comparisons between him and Thurgood Marshall, Dr. King's nonviolent approach was a step beyond Thurgood Marshall's gradualist approach and getting laws passed. And then when Stokely challenges Martin Luther King telling him that your time has passed, or Malcolm X in a debate with Bayard Russin tells him the same thing that your time has passed. I am not sure if Stokely really realized that only a couple years before in America, nonviolent protests was pretty radical.
MR (00:23:50):
Yes. Yes.
SM (00:23:50):
Compared to the Thurgood Marshall trying to get laws passed.
MR (00:23:53):
Good thing. The Black power movement was saw itself as part of the global liberation movement. Personally, I think I was a supporter of black power. It was a challenge as a white person. It was a challenge to the whole white movement, how we would respond to the notion of black liberation, black autonomy. Now of course, I see it as a terrible black power, as a defeat for the black freedom, but that is in retrospect.
SM (00:24:25):
Yes.
MR (00:24:25):
Time we were caught up in the notion of global liberation.
SM (00:24:31):
One of the other things that, and I caught a lot of things in your book that I was rereading it, prepping for the interview, is we had Tom Hayden on our campus about seven years ago, and Tom came to speak as part of our activist days, and we had a dinner prior to the program. And in that dinner, he wanted to know if the student's government association had power. And then they said yes, and they gave them their definition of power. And Tom shakes his head, and that is not power. And yet, and then he went on and gave a lecture of the difference between power and empowerment. And he was basically saying, "You are not empowered." And you state in your book that the protest movement, Columbia, was not about student power empowerment, but it was about fighting the American imperialism abroad in Vietnam and racism and the economic conditions of blacks at home in America. Is there any conflict here? Tom says you students need to feel empowered, but you were not after empowerment.
MR (00:25:39):
No. Well, I am not quite sure. I mean, I would not necessarily disagree with Tom. I mean, what is empowerment? But I mean, when one confronts the problems of the world, one becomes empowered. And conversely, if you are given, I do not know, are given or somehow get power within an institution, does that even confront the bigger problem? I do not know. I cannot answer that. It is complicated for my little head.
SM (00:26:22):
Well, one of the questions I was going to, from the questions I gave you over email about the importance of the beat, and I did not know that Richie Havens was a beat.
MR (00:26:29):
Yeah. Very important. Mean, they were true cultural rebels. And I was aware of them from a very early time in my life. I would say 13, 14, 13, 14. They were cool.
SM (00:26:48):
Yeah. Well, I was looking at the play for the poem, Howl, which was in the 1950s that was banned in many schools. And of course, the poem expresses the anxieties and the ideals of a generation alienated from mainstream society. But some of the quotes, "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked, dragging themselves through the Negro streets, had dawned looking for an angry fix. Angle headed, hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night." Very prophetic words. And obviously they had an impact, and they were a precursor to what I consider the activism of the (19)60s.
MR (00:27:37):
I think so. I believe so. For me, they were. You know? I lived in the suburbs, but I knew that there was something wrong about the suburbs that they had. They had forgotten a lot of light. Newark emptied out to create the suburb that I lived in, and my family even moved from Newark. But there is something left behind there. A lot of people left behind there. It was literally white flight that when he talks about Negro streets, that those are the streets that my family fled.
SM (00:28:19):
One of the things that I think is just fantastic in your book is, and again, I keep going back to your book, it is the scene where one of the people you looked up to at Columbia, one of the older students, was it Dave Gilbert or one of them, talked about what happened in Germany and comparing it to America. And how we cannot let that happen again. We cannot let what happened that happen again to the Vietnamese people, what happened to the Jews in Germany and in Europe.
MR (00:28:49):
Well, I noticed that I called the first chapter "The Good Germany."
SM (00:28:52):
Yes. That Could you, because again, this is a different venue. People may not have read your book, but could you talk a little bit about that experience and your feelings on this, and that is really a lot about who you are and what you became.
MR (00:29:07):
Yeah. I was a Jewish kid growing up. I was born two years after the end of World War II growing up, thinking about it, aware of the Holocaust. My father had been in World War II. He missed the fighting in the Philippines by a few months. But I saw the World War II was the great divide, the great heroic good war, and we beat the Nazis. And so the question then was, who were these Nazis? What were they up to? And I guess that reality, the reality of World War II was so bloom, so large that I felt I had attention. And one of the questions about World War II-
MR (00:30:03):
...attention. And one of the questions about World War II was where were the German people? Questions still exist. Just last night I read an article in the current New Yorker about Dresden, the rebuilding of Dresden, and the consciousness of the people of Dresden. They see themselves as victims of American air power, firebombing, total destruction. And yet they know nothing about their own country's participation in the genocide. It was not talked about. It is now 60 some years later, and the question of the of role of the German people in the rise of Nazism is still on the table. So at that time there was a phrase called "Good German", meaning somebody who willfully ignored or denied or seen what was happening. Now the phrase the "Good German" has lost its metaphorical power. Have you tried it on some young people lately?
SM (00:31:24):
Well, I left the university in March, but...
MR (00:31:28):
Try it sometime and you will find that by and large people have no idea what "Good German" means. When we were growing up, everyone knew what an ironic metaphor.
SM (00:31:40):
Right.
MR (00:31:41):
And so we always asked where were the Germans, the good Germans? Where were the German people? Same when I found out about the crimes of this country, I did not want to be a "Good German." Quite simple.
SM (00:31:57):
That is real important for young people. And actually I am a firm believer that people evolve over time. So I think older people can change too. I am one of those people who believes that. But I think this feeling that you really bring out in the book also, the we did not know mentality of silence and denial and ignorance. And I think sometimes ignorance on purpose. And you saw it in Vietnam with the terrible atrocities, and certainly we know them now that what happened. And we continue as Americans to forget that it is not only the soldiers that we are losing, American soldiers, but it is the citizenry of the nation that we are in that we are killing. And it continues today.
MR (00:32:38):
Absolutely. There is a memorial to 50,000 American dead in Vietnam. But there is no memorial to the millions of Vietnamese that we killed. And it is the same way now in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they are not Americans, they do not count. But it comes down to a very mundane level. Americans go and shop at Walmart and they see all this stuff that is pretty damn cheap. And they do not ask the question, "Why is this stuff so cheap? Who's making it? How much are they being paid? What is the environmental cost? What is the cost of the family? What is the cost in social dislocation in China?" That is a willful...
SM (00:33:36):
You talk about Malcolm X a little bit in the book in several sections, and one of the areas is when Malcolm saw the connection between the people's struggles in Vietnam and the Far East and what was happening in America with African Americans and people of color. And you felt that was why he had to be killed. When you look at some of the other individuals, not only of Malcolm, but Dr. King, Fred Hampton, even George Jackson, who was really a powerful speaker within the prison community, and even to some sense... I know you do not like a lot of the liberals and Bobby Kennedy, but he kind of changed in his last two years of his life. Do you see a connection that they all had to really go because of their stands on things?
MR (00:34:26):
Obviously in retrospect, it is hard to miss those connections. I might add too, that anytime a black person advocates armed action, they are going to be a [inaudible], they are going to be killed or jailed.
SM (00:34:43):
Getting back to...
MR (00:34:49):
Malcolm X's slogan was by any means necessary. And that eventually he had to be killed. That the government killed dozens of Black Panthers because they were advocating revolution. Blacks with guns. It was very scary.
SM (00:35:07):
Certainly Dr. King went against the Vietnam War and some people thought that was his death sentence.
MR (00:35:13):
Yeah-yeah, exactly. One year to the day, one year before his murder, he came out publicly, now. Absolutely.
SM (00:35:24):
I do not know if you were ever a Bertrand Russell fan. But I am a big Bertrand Russell fan because I think a lot of people from our generation read him as a good role model as an older person. And he lived a life that really stood for something. In the beginning of his biography, and this was brought up by one of my interviews when I asked the person, "What would you like your legacy to be once you are gone?" And this is a very well-known activist just like you from the (19)60s. And he said, "Well, I just want you to read the first paragraph in Bertram Russell's book because that is what I want to be remembered for."
MR (00:36:06):
What is that?
SM (00:36:07):
And here it is. He starts it out with three passions, simple, but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life, the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and the unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions like great winds have blown me hither and thither in a wayward course over a deep ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of the spare.
MR (00:36:34):
That is good writing.
SM (00:36:37):
And that is Bertrand Russell. And now I have been reading... Actually it is his autobiography. It was written in three parts. But this is the part from the time 1872 to 1914. And we all know right up to the time he died, he was the same guy he was when he was a young guy. Your thoughts on those three, because you are dealing with love, you are dealing with knowledge...
MR (00:37:05):
Knowledge and justice. Well, the love part is hard. One tries for love. I would not have defined it as my goal because it either comes or does not. I have been lucky in my life. I have been surrounded by love. But I grew up in a family in which there was much love. And so I do not see it as abnormal. I see it as the human condition or as an inspirable human condition. And everybody could go for it. So I am not different from anyone else. But I once heard Ramdas, Richard Albert, say that he learned from his guru in India, that the goal of life, love everybody and always tell the truth. And so I bring it down to two and I would not separate them because what is justice? So I think knowledge and justice are pretty good. Love everybody and always tell the truth.
SM (00:38:33):
Yeah.
MR (00:38:34):
Sometimes you have to dig find the truth though.
SM (00:38:36):
Yeah. When you responded to the question of the overall impact on the boomer generation, you were very good in letting me know. And others have said the same thing, "You cannot generalize 78 million Americans." But I love the way you divided it. The comments that you made was, "We helped the Black Freedom Movement. We helped them in the war in Vietnam, and we fought for the equality of gays, women, disabled, and fighting nuclear power." Do you see any negatives? And the reason why I bring this up is the drug culture, women being treated as objects and certainly violence, which not necessarily the violence that we always talk about with SDS. I am talking about what we saw in Watts and what we saw in the cities during that time. Cities going up exploding.
MR (00:39:32):
Well, yeah. I think that every deviation from non-violent struggle has been negative. And that would include spontaneous nihilistic uprising and saying it would also include calls for arm struggle. In retrospect, every deviation that I made away from non-violent struggle and democracy, too, was a terrible negative and had terrible results. So that is one big negative. Human condition, though has plenty of negatives, discrimination, and exploitation. And I probably participate. I write about this, the privilege that I have as a male within the movement led me to exploit women. But I think all that is inevitable and it will continue. But the big lesson that I take is the necessity to hold the nonviolent gratitude. Howard Zinn died last week.
SM (00:40:59):
Yes, I know.
MR (00:41:00):
And I remember back in 2000... I guess Susan Danburger of NPR asked him, she asked a lot of smart people on the radio, "What is the contribution of 20th century to the 21st?" And I remember him saying the idea of non-violent political action. That really got me. He chose one thing. And that was the idea of nonviolence. And so I reduced it down to one thing, which encompasses, incidentally, love too. Because in nonviolence you cannot dehumanize your enemy to the point where it is okay to kill him.
SM (00:41:59):
Mark, I do not know if you saw, but on Democracy Now, they had an excerpt from Howard's last speech at Boston University.
MR (00:42:10):
Oh no, I did not hear it.
SM (00:42:12):
Yeah. And I have got to get a transcript of it because he passed away within two months. But basically what he was saying... Let me turn my tape here over. He was talking to a room full of college students at Boston University, and he said, " I was a pilot in World War II and I dropped bombs on people and I killed people. I was told to do so. I did not know those bombs had chemicals in them that would last long after the war ended. But when the war ended, I got a letter in the mail." And the letter in the mail came thanking him for his service. And all World War II veterans got this letter from one of the secretaries in the government. And basically it said, "Thanks for helping us to create a better world." Because they had defeated Nazism and, of course, the Japanese. And what is interesting... Then he went on for the next 10 minutes at unbelievable words about making the world better. Then he went on to talk about all the killing that has taken place in the world since World War II. He talked about Vietnam. He talked about Iraq, Afghanistan, and he talked about all the other conflicts and wars and weaponry and so forth. So he was basically wanting young people to reflect in a lot of different ways. But it was the way that only he could say it because he is very good with the words. So I just want to mention that.
MR (00:43:52):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:43:53):
Because I want to get a transcript.
MR (00:43:59):
Howard's whole career has a lot of integrity and he uses his personal experience. He used his personal experience really well, and he held to his principles. He is a great model.
SM (00:44:15):
You had also made a comment, and I thought that was pretty good though, where you said "The impact of boomers on succeeding generation is they hate us. We have all the good jobs and we have all the good music and sex." What is interesting, we had a couple of panels at our school when I was there between the boomer generation and Generation X students. Actually, we filled over 500 in the room for both programs. And two things came out of those programs when Generation Xers were talking about boomers. Number one, they did not like them. Just like you say, "They hate us." They are tired of hearing about what was the nostalgia.
MR (00:44:57):
Are you writing a book about boomers?
SM (00:45:01):
And then it... Huh?
MR (00:45:03):
Get off it already?
SM (00:45:03):
Huh?
MR (00:45:05):
Get off it already.
SM (00:45:07):
Yeah. And then the second part was, "I wish I had lived then. I wish I had the causes that they had. I wish I had something to fight for."
MR (00:45:19):
Right. Right.
SM (00:45:20):
There was nothing in between.
MR (00:45:22):
No, not only that, but that they do not see the causes now. And that is understandable too, why they do not see the causes now. Because I did not see the causes now until I blundered into a mass movement. And that mass movements make things easy. You are surrounded by people who think like you and you have a critical math. Now it is a lot harder. You have to be out there on the fringe.
SM (00:45:55):
That is important because we all know when a college student goes off to their first year of school that peers are the most important influence, even more than faculty members on them.
MR (00:46:06):
Right.
SM (00:46:07):
And obviously that was true with you.
MR (00:46:09):
It was easy for me, comparatively speaking. To join the movement was easy because the movement was big and growing.
SM (00:46:19):
Could you describe two terms that I think are very important in your book? And that is functional rationality and substantial rationality. That really got me, because McNamara fit the first one so perfectly.
MR (00:46:37):
Like you figure out your goal and then that is your goal and McNamara's functional rationality. But the deeper rationality involves an evaluation of both the means and the goals. Do the ends justify the means? Do the ends justify the means? No-no.
SM (00:47:10):
Well, I had mentioned three slogans to you in my email and one was the Peter Max, and you had mentioned that you did not think...
MR (00:47:22):
But that was not for me. That was for a lot of others.
SM (00:47:25):
Yeah.
MR (00:47:26):
I thought that one was some... That is all right.
SM (00:47:28):
Would you say, and I just added one, would you say "Truth to Power" may be another one that is very important? And are there other slogans that you think more define the...
MR (00:47:37):
"Truth to power" is a pretty good one. "Truth to Power" was not that [inaudible] slogan.
SM (00:47:45):
Well, I know Dr. King used it.
MR (00:47:47):
Yeah-yeah. No, that is great. Let us see. Logan. Logan. Well, "By any means as necessary" was the slogan. But it is not one that I hold to now.
SM (00:48:02):
Right.
MR (00:48:14):
We powered to the people of Logan. All the SDS cards up until the end... The slogan of SDS was "Let the people decide." And that was consistent with our ideology of participatory democracy. And when the Weathermen took over, we still let that one go and we substituted the Panther slogan "Power to the People." "Power to the People" sounds good, but it is a bit simplistic cause people think all kinds of things and there is all kinds of people. But people are not unitary, that is for sure.
SM (00:49:07):
The media oftentimes, and you brought up even your comment to me, the media has made you think this way and make students think this way. But you also state in your book that many of your peers have gone on to be very successful in life. Doctors, lawyers, heads of companies and teachers. You name it. And oftentimes the media likes to portray the generation or as one that gave up on their beliefs and their ideals and really have not contributed at all to America. Your thoughts on that?
MR (00:49:40):
No. When I wrote that... I think you are quoting from the epilogue of the book. And in that I am actually talking about the people who came back for the 40th reunion of the Columbia strike. And many of them were not successful. But that does not mean that they have lost their ideals or their motive or motivation. Not at all.
SM (00:50:05):
Yeah. Cause I think...
MR (00:50:05):
Remember Columbia was a middle class place or an upper middle class place or a ruling class place. And the idea of it was that you go there and then you take your place at the top of society. That is still the idea. And so it is very hard to get away from class privilege.
SM (00:50:25):
Well...
MR (00:50:25):
Very difficult.
SM (00:50:28):
When I was reading your book, and then of course even knowing about you even before your book came out, that being underground must have been very difficult for you. Because you have even said... I have seen some interviews when you were on CSPAN, and that you are a person of ideas. You want to be doing something, you want to be helping people. But hiding, you cannot do anything.
MR (00:50:51):
Right. I think that I recognized that very shortly after I went under. I recognized that on May 4th, 1970, about a month after I described sitting on a park bench in Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. But I think that it is interesting that even though I ostensibly gave up all my privilege, my class, I still actually retained quite a bit, even in the underground, even when I was a nobody. I got a job at a factory in the Kensington and Allegheny, K and A neighborhood. And in that factory, I started at the bottom as the laborer. And it was not long before I was promoted to be in charge of a warehouse. Why? Because I had communications, so. That the black guy who started on the same day with me, did not have. He did not speak English the same way I did. He could not communicate with the Jewish manager. I could read. He could not.
SM (00:52:11):
You had to use a fake name though, did not you then?
MR (00:52:15):
Oh, yeah. I did not put down that I had gone to Columbia University. I made up some high school somewhere and said that I had not graduated and that was it.
SM (00:52:25):
When did you know you had to go from one place to another because you went different parts of the country?
MR (00:52:34):
We always wanted to stay a couple of jumps ahead of the FBI. So if there was a security breach of any sort, we would [inaudible] a car or somebody ratting. That was the word. Okay. Help us rat it on me being in Santa Fe. Then I could not be just one step ahead. Had to be two steps ahead. So that necessitated moving. So whenever there was a serious security breach, then we would move. And the security breach would not necessarily be about where we were. But it could have even been the previous place.
SM (00:53:25):
This is really...
MR (00:53:27):
Because you do not want to live on the edge. You do not want to live believing that at any moment the FBI could come knocking on your door.
SM (00:53:36):
Do you feel you are still being watched even though you have...
MR (00:53:38):
Nah.
SM (00:53:38):
They are not watching anymore?
MR (00:53:43):
How many million people do they have to watch?
SM (00:53:44):
Yeah.
MR (00:53:45):
Well, nah. That is just paranoid. You cannot live paranoid. That is the main thing.
SM (00:53:56):
Well, I think your life is an example though of what Dr. King always said. And even though people might say, "Well, you cannot compare Mark Rudd to Dr. King." But Dr. King always said that there is a price one pays for one's beliefs.
MR (00:54:09):
Not sure I played the price. I never missed out on a [inaudible] in my life. I never missed out on an opportunity. Had Easter in a public school. I have not paid any particular price.
SM (00:54:29):
One of the questions that I asked again is the question of well, healing. And you responded "Well, I would not sit down with George Bush." And mainly what I was referring to in that question about a problem of healing was I wanted to explain it more to you on the phone. I had taken students to Washington DC to meet Senator Muskey. And the students came up with the questions because they were curious about the 1968 convention. And they thought he was going to answer questions about possible second civil war, tearing the nation apart and everything. And so they came up with a question on healing. And I think what I sent to you was misinformation. I was really referring to the 15 percent of those who were in the anti-war movement, who were against the Vietnam War and the Vietnam Veterans themselves. And that is who I am talking about just between those two groups.
MR (00:55:29):
I never accepted the division description of my generation that the vets thought one thing and the anti-war people thought another. I never accepted that. For one thing, the vets were incredibly anti-war because so many vets were drafted. And also because the anti-war movement itself was so powerful that the idea of being against the war had gone into the military. So you find vets are just as split as the general population. My best friend is a marine vet, and he and I have much more in common than guys from his old unit that he occasionally sees. Because some of them have not gotten wise to the ways in which they were used. So I do not accept that generational division argument at all.
SM (00:56:43):
I think I sense this only because I go to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day and Veterans Day every year. I have done it for 14 years. And I see the slogans and the dislike for Jane Fonda and when Bill Clinton came to the wall and how they were booing him. And even though it is supposed to be a non-political entity, there is still a lot of politics around there. You can sense...
MR (00:57:07):
That is the faction. Personally, I have only gotten that a few times in my life from this. And I have been in touch with hundreds of vets. I taught Vietnam vets. And for the most part I feel accepted by the vets as a veteran of the same Goddam war.
SM (00:57:32):
Good point.
MR (00:57:38):
Maybe I am different. But I would say that of my encounters with vets, maybe one or 2 percent have been hostel. There is a fraction of people who wanted to have everything that they were involved in, all their pain and suffering and loss justified. And that is understandable. Then you have got people who I would say, for the most part, vets are very cornered about the whole thing. And Gil put it, in a way, they murdered a lot of people. Those people did not ask them to come to Vietnam. They did not ask to be murdered. Somebody killed three to 5 million people. So somebody's got to feel bad about that.
SM (00:58:26):
I think one of the things that you bring up here... When I go to the wall, I look at the wall and I see not only Vietnam Veterans, I think of the 15 percent who protested the war, who were so sincere and genuine in their anti-war protest that I can see what you are talking about, Mark, about the links between Vietnam vets and those who opposed the war. Oftentimes it is those who did not give a darn about the war. And those are the ones that sometimes vet has had more problems with.
MR (00:59:01):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Also, there is a lot more to be said on the question of the vets. My general view of the vets is somebody murdered three to 5 million people and that the vets were forced into that position have a hard time dealing with it, very difficult time dealing with it. They are reconciling their own behavior. So sometimes they get angry and they say, "Oh, well it is your fault." And other times they get angry at themselves. They drink and they wind up on the streets or they beat their wives or whatever.
SM (00:59:48):
When you were probably doing your teaching in New Mexico and were back in the system again and you saw President Reagan come into power in 1980, 81 and in his opening speech, and I have the quotes. But he said a...
SM (01:00:03):
And in his opening speech, and I have the quotes, but he said, "America is back."
MR (01:00:07):
What? Is back? Yeah.
SM (01:00:08):
Yeah. He said, "America is back. The military is going to-
MR (01:00:11):
Reagan was a horrible disappointment to me. And it was worse when he was reelected in (19)84 and I realized that he was going to be around for a long time. And remember in (19)80, when he was elected, I was barely aware of the war in Central America. But by (19)84 when he was reelected, I had become aware of the murder that our country was perpetrating in Central America.
SM (01:00:41):
And then of course, George Bush Sr., George H.W. Bush said that the Vietnam syndrome is over, when he became President.
MR (01:00:49):
Right, right. And in a way, he was right, because maybe he was a little premature in (19)91, but by 2003, the Vietnam syndrome was definitely over.
SM (01:01:03):
Yeah. You even bring up Vietnam on a university campus, even the word Vietnam, it just rings all kinds of "Uh-oh. Here we go again." I-
MR (01:01:13):
Yeah. Right. Well, I was talking to somebody, [inaudible], and said, "People do not know when Vietnam was. It could have been before World War II.
SM (01:01:26):
These are just quick-
MR (01:01:27):
And Vietnam is 45 years ago. And when you think of when we were growing up, 40 or 45 years ago before that was World War I.
SM (01:01:36):
Yes.
MR (01:01:36):
Meaning that it is in the dark ages.
SM (01:01:42):
Yeah. In fact, I have got the book Woodstock Census that came out in (19)79. I do not know if you have ever heard of that book.
MR (01:01:47):
No.
SM (01:01:48):
Well, I am reading it right now, because one of the authors is a big, well-known person not far from where you live. And I want to get ahold of him, because he co-wrote the book in (19)79. And they were basically saying in (19)79 that people are looking at the Vietnam War like we looked at World War II.
MR (01:02:08):
Right.
SM (01:02:08):
And that was 1979. These are just really quick ... I know you do not like generalities, but just a quick response here-
MR (01:02:17):
But tell me, before you get onto that, who wrote that book?
SM (01:02:20):
Oh, hold on. Can you hold on one second? I will go get it. Hold on.
MR (01:02:23):
Okay.
SM (01:02:24):
Yep. Okay. Are you still there?
MR (01:02:54):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:55):
Okay. The book was written by ... let us see, where is it here? Written by Rex Weiner.
MR (01:03:04):
Never heard of him.
SM (01:03:05):
Rex Weiner. If you go into the web, you will find out he is a big writer, written a lot of novels. And he has been a writer for a long time. And he ran away to Haight-Ashbury in the Summer of Love and brought home a souvenir case of hepatitis, studied the effects of drugs at NYU, dropped out to be a bum in Europe and became a staff writer for the East Village Other. And his best (19)60s moment was watching Timothy Leary fix a lawnmower. And the other author, her name is Deanne Stillman. S-T-I-L-L-M-A-N. She might be married now, so I could not find her, but I want to try to get ahold ... It is very good. And your picture is in here. He breaks down the sections and there is pictures at the beginning of each section. And there is a picture of you at Columbia in the one section.
MR (01:04:08):
Oh, well that is nice.
SM (01:04:08):
Yeah. And if I find it here, bear with me as I am looking, there is a section on drugs, there is a section on heroes, and I think that is where you are. Your picture is in the beginning of the heroes.
MR (01:04:22):
Yeah, but see, just a comment on me being a hero. I was really a media creation. I was one among many, many, many thousands of people who took risks and took leadership positions. And yet, I was still chosen by the media.
SM (01:04:46):
Yeah. And the media-
MR (01:04:46):
But if you want to pursue that question, take a look at Todd Gitlin's book, The Whole World Is Watching. It was written in the late (19)70s. He interviews a guy by the name of Michael... oh God, why am I blocking his name? He is a professor of peace studies. He studies oil. Margot, what is Michael's ... the professor, his wife was in peace development. Mike ... you know who I mean.
Margot (01:05:24):
Clare.
MR (01:05:26):
Mike Clare. Michael Clare. L-A-R-E. Michael Clare was in SDS. Michael Clare. [inaudible]. He is a writer for The Nation on oil policy. Good guy. He was involved in Columbia SDS. And he talks at length to Todd Gitlin in his book, The Whole World Is Watching, on the Mark Rudd phenomenon, of how the media created me as a leader. And so if these people list me as a hero, then what they have done is they have fallen for that.
SM (01:06:09):
Yeah. Well, I know that we had a period of time in the late (19)80s where we were asking students who their heroes were. And my generation, the heroes were people like Dr. King, John Kennedy, you name it. But that the generation Xers were talking about, "My parents are my heroes."
MR (01:06:35):
Oh, that is nice.
SM (01:06:36):
Or my uncle. So even within that generation, there was a change of how people looked at people and their-
MR (01:06:43):
Remember, it is the decline of utopianism.
SM (01:06:46):
Right. Sometimes their teacher. I know a person that was very influential in your life was when you were a student. I forget his full name. Potter?
MR (01:06:58):
Paul Potter?
SM (01:06:58):
Yeah. Paul Potter. You mentioned that his speech had such an effect on you.
MR (01:07:05):
Yeah.
SM (01:07:06):
And obviously there were other things that had an effect on you, but you seemed to really emphasize that one. What was it about that peer of yours that really had an effect on you?
MR (01:07:16):
How smart he was. I never knew him. I met him only in 1982. He died in 1984. I did not know him personally. But you read a speech like that, and it is true of the whole generation of the leaders of SDS, Tom Hayden and David Gilbert, a lot of others; these people had really understood what was going on. They had uncovered the truth, and they were a lot smarter and more relevant than the professor.
SM (01:07:51):
I think Rennie Davis fell in that category too, did not he?
MR (01:08:02):
I see the rise of a new student movement very slowly, but you do not have graduate students around. And the graduate students are important, because they know more.
SM (01:08:14):
Right. Just very quick thoughts here, and they do not have to be in detail. How did the (19)50s make the (19)60s?
MR (01:08:25):
Well, I think there was all this built up repression. But the biggest single thing, which we do not talk about enough, white people do not talk about enough, is the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights Movement shook up this country. And that is got to be acknowledged. And so I will answer your question with one answer; the (19)50s was the rise to a mass movement, of the Civil Rights Movement.
SM (01:08:51):
How did the (19)60s make the (19)70s?
MR (01:09:01):
Well, there was a loosening of everything in the (19)60s, and then the (19)70s was kind of anarchic and nihilistic in a sense, or individualistic. And then that gave rise to Reagan and the 30 years of right-wing rule that we have had.
SM (01:09:22):
Yeah, that is absolutely going right in there. How did the (19)70s lead to the (19)80s and beyond? Yeah.
MR (01:09:28):
And one aspect of Reaganism, though, which should not be forgotten, is that the Civil Rights Movement unleashed black political power, especially in the South. And that caused the Democratic coalition to disintegrate. And the Democratic coalition had held the segregationist white South in the Democratic Party. So when there was a realignment in the (19)70s that led to Reagan, that entire racist wing of the Democratic Party split and went over to the Republicans. And we have still got that now. So people could say, "Oh, it was the excesses of the (19)60s," but at its real political core, it was a realignment in which the racists went to the Republican Party. I think that is got to be repeated about 500,000 times.
SM (01:10:26):
Mm-hmm. You talk about the biggest mistake that you ever made, obviously in the book, and I have seen you interviewed on C-SPAN and some of your other interviews, that was the breakup of SDS. And for obvious reasons, because SDS was the strongest anti-war group probably in history. But the question I want to ask is you were a personality, and so was Bernadine Dohrn, and so was some of the other leaders of SDS. How much does personality play within the leadership of a student group, not only as a plus, but as a minus? Because would not you say here the personalities played a negative? Because-
MR (01:11:12):
No. I think it is less personality than it is cliques. I think political cliques are the negative, and we had a clique. And the clique had lots of different personalities in it, but the clique was powerful enough to take over a big mass organization like SDS. So I think people have to look out for cliques, rather than personality.
SM (01:11:47):
You do not have to go into detail, but you consider that the biggest mistake of your life?
MR (01:11:51):
Oh, absolutely.
SM (01:11:51):
Yeah.
MR (01:11:52):
Going off SDS, are you kidding? Well, I thought I was doing one thing, but I did the opposite. I thought we were creating the beginning of a mass revolutionary movement among white people to join blacks in this country, and instead what we were doing was we were doing the work of the FBI for them. Absolutely the biggest mistake of my life, at the age of 22.
SM (01:12:19):
Well, idealism is one of the important things, and the people that you have mentioned who were in SDS, you were very proud of your intellectual strengths.
MR (01:12:33):
Too proud.
SM (01:12:33):
And the idealism. But you also mentioned in your book something; you said, "Idealism's downside is we believe our own ideas because we had them and we wanted them to be true. Do not believe everything you think."
MR (01:12:50):
Right.
SM (01:12:51):
That is important for students to learn. I have seen this in my working relationships with students. This is a very important little quote in your book, because I am idealistic, and I think you are too.
MR (01:13:04):
And so is [inaudible]. Especially the anarchist kid.
SM (01:13:07):
Right. Could you explain that in terms of learning a little more in detail?
MR (01:13:14):
Well, see, it is really more of ideology. People need to have an ideology; a set of beliefs that explain the world. It is sort of like a religious impulse, and once you get that ideology, then you think you have got everything figured out. One current ideology is anarchism, and I find a lot of good kids are stuck in this belief that we do not need governments, and that everything would be great if we just got rid of the government. And it is a totally religious belief. It does not represent reality. And I am not sure, for real learning to take place, you have to keep a certain skepticism, and even the skepticism in your own beliefs. Even scientists make this error. There is various research fallacies. I do not know the names of them, but they have to do with the idea that since you have a hypothesis, that the hypothesis must be true. But then scientific method holds that you have to do everything you can to disprove your hypothesis. So we need that same kind of cold scientific view of our ideas, and skepticism, and the belief that no ideology can ever describe reality.
SM (01:15:03):
One of the things-
MR (01:15:03):
The Buddhist precept that no belief structure is true, including Buddhism.
SM (01:15:15):
Your thoughts on just after the Vietnam War ended in (19)73? Well, the peace talks, and then (19)75, the helicopters go off the compound there in Saigon, which is now Ho Chi Minh City. Just your thoughts on what followed. And when you read the history books, what followed was an increase in the communal efforts, more increase in spirituality, and more going inward as opposed to working together as a group. So more of an individualistic-
MR (01:15:49):
We should have kept the organizing going, in retrospect. The right wing did keep the organizing going, but our generation eventually took right wing tower under George W. Bush. So the left did not keep the organizing going. That was our big error. Now we have got to come back to it and we have got to teach young people how to do it, how to organize.
SM (01:16:18):
Well, Richie Havens said that when a lot of people look at Woodstock, they just see this bunch of kids listening to great music. But he really reveals that half of the audience were not kids. There were a lot of parents with children there, and there were actually a lot of people in their 40s and 50s there. So that is something that is never told of the 400,000. But he says that Woodstock was much more than people truly understand, because it was an awakening that the kids of the (19)60s, who had been so hidden, were now being seen. And so he brings that up. And he also talks about the musicians of the late (19)50s and early (19)60s that were in Greenwich Village. And I know you knew all about this, and you were inspired by the Beats, that the Bob Jones of the world, and even the Richie Havens and Peter, Paul and Mary and that group, they could have been recognized a lot earlier, but they were not because they were kind of hidden.
MR (01:17:21):
Well-
SM (01:17:22):
And that the music kind of exposed and brought them out.
MR (01:17:25):
[inaudible] the folk song revival was that it happened at all. No such thing is happening now. But the folk song revival happened from the late (19)40s on into and through the (19)60s, and it was a lot of product of the left wing. And I think it was important, because it brought social consciousness to so many people. But in the current musical environment, you have nothing like that.
SM (01:18:04):
One of the things that I can vividly remember when I was a student at Ohio State, because I was in grad school in (19)71, (19)72 there, and of course I was at Binghamton up to that point, is I saw the separation between black students and white students really happening around that 1969 timeframe. And that was because the African-American students said, "I am not going to be protesting the war in Vietnam. We were going to concentrate on the issues here at home with the plight of African-Americans," ala Black Power, Black Panthers, and so forth. And even at Kent State, you cannot find an African-American student at that protest. They were told to not be there. And that basically-
MR (01:18:49):
That might have been in part a result of Black Power too, the idea of separation.
SM (01:18:57):
But what is really sad is when you were going underground at Ohio State in (19)71 and (19)72, you walk into the Ohio Union and black students did not want anything to do with white students. And they were having their dances in one section, and the other group was having their dances in the other section. And of course, the Afro hairdos were there. There was a lot of stuff happening. And one of the things that was so important about the (19)60s was a sense of community, of coming together, because so many of the movements came together. And all of a sudden, you are seeing these splits.
MR (01:19:33):
Right. Well, Black Power was a powerful thing. There was recently a book written about it called Columbia versus Harlem, or Harlem versus Columbia, by Dr. Stefan Bradley, a young black historian. And he talks about the black movement at Columbia. We were really only united with them for a moment. That moment was a very powerful moment.
SM (01:20:03):
I have only got a couple more questions, then I will be done. You mentioned a couple of the people that you read. I have it right here. I know there were three different books. What were the most influential books, Mark, in your life, that you read as you were young or that you have read since?
MR (01:20:25):
The Grapes of Wrath, the autobiography of Malcolm X, and oddly enough, a rather obscure book from 1974 called Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. [inaudible] Review Press. The guy is a genius, an economist who himself was a [inaudible] maker machinist. And he analyzed the nature of the current economy, which was the computerization, the automation of the workforce in which the average skill level of labor is driven down. That is the whole point of computerization, is that machines take over labor, and so you do not have to pay as much, and you do not need a skilled labor force. And that then defined my whole career as a teacher at a community college, which was, "Why is there so much failure? It is because the economy does not need highly skilled workers." But anyway, as long as we are listing books, I am going to list as my third Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. Have you ever seen it?
SM (01:22:07):
No, I have not, but I am going to go look it up.
MR (01:22:09):
Oh, do look it up. It is an amazing book.
SM (01:22:13):
Where do you put your book? Because I think your book should be in a classroom, should be required reading. You made a question to me, "How am I going to reach young people with this book project?" Because as mentioned, you have been somewhat frustrated. I firmly believe in youth as long as the adults do what they are supposed to be doing in terms of teaching. And if I was a professor in a classroom in the (19)60s, I would have your book as required reading. I mean-
MR (01:22:40):
That is wonderful.
SM (01:22:41):
No, I would.
MR (01:22:41):
It is coming out in paperback, so maybe it will.
SM (01:22:44):
And I know some professors who teach (19)60s courses, and I will certainly recommend to them. I do not know if the chair of the department will finally okay it, but I think it is just a fantastic book. And the two books that I wanted to know if you had actually read was The Greening of America, by Charles Wright.
MR (01:23:03):
I did. I did. And unfortunately, he did not prove right.
SM (01:23:09):
Yep. And the other one was The Making of a Counterculture, by Theodore Roszak.
MR (01:23:13):
I never did. Do you like that one?
SM (01:23:16):
I liked it. I wanted to interview him, but he is not well, so he says, "I cannot." He is not doing too well. So those are important. I also felt that Harry Edwards book, Black Students, I do not know if you have ever read it?
MR (01:23:27):
No. But Harry Edwards is an important guy.
SM (01:23:30):
Yeah, he is. But he is the one professor who defined the (19)60s activists more than any other. He broke them down into revolutionaries, activists, militants. And I know he also did what we call anomic activists, which are people who will just create havoc for no reason at all. You can just pay them and they will do it. They do not care. And it was in Black Students, we read that book, it was required reading at Ohio State, and I brought him to Westchester and I got a first edition signed. So it was pretty good.
MR (01:24:13):
Great.
SM (01:24:15):
If you had to live your life all over again, would you do it?
MR (01:24:17):
The same way?
SM (01:24:20):
Yeah. What changes would you do in your life, besides-
MR (01:24:22):
Non-violence. And organizing. Much more organizing. [inaudible] nature. And I think I probably would have gone earlier into the Democratic Party.
SM (01:24:37):
What do you hope will be your lasting legacy? Say that again, because the tape just-
MR (01:24:47):
The idea that mass movement, social and political, is possible, and that it takes organizing. And to not make the same mistakes that I did, which was not organizing and going into self-expression, which is what armed struggle is.
SM (01:25:05):
And I am going to end the interview with just... I had a whole list of names. I am not going to go through those names. But I wanted just your thoughts on four people, because they were really not liked by the anti-war movement, but I want hear it from you. And the four people are Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, and what is the fourth one? Oh, and I just wanted to know a little bit more of your thoughts on Kennedy and McCarthy, because you call-
MR (01:25:36):
Okay. Kennedy and McCarthy, at the time, we thought were diversions from the revolutionary movement, which were growing. And [inaudible] back into the system. We did not believe that the system was going to survive. We thought that there would be an end to this sham democracy that we have. So in 1968, when there was an election, SDS's line was, "Vote in the streets." So we were kind of utopian anarchists at the time, and we wanted to ignore those people. I have never hated anybody in my life as much as I hated Lyndon Johnson. To this day, I despise him. I hate Lyndon Johnson more than I hate even Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. I worked for Lyndon Johnson as a high school kid, and I should have written more about this part, but I went to some demonstrations for Johnson, and I felt totally betrayed. And whatever happens to you when you are coming of age, that is very important emotionally. So I hated Lyndon Johnson worse than I hated any President, before or since. Now, rationally, I know that that is not possibly true, that Johnson was a continuation domestically of the New Deal, and there was a lot of good stuff. But I still hate him. Even Nixon, who was the embodiment of evil, I did not hate as much as Johnson. Spiro Agnew was a joke. I loved Spiro Agnew because he was so obviously unqualified to be anything. He might have been qualified to clean toilets someplace, but that is about it. And I loved Agnew because he was such a joke, and he was so corrupt that they had to fire him. They had to get him to resign before Watergate played out. So did that answer your question?
SM (01:27:55):
Yeah. And obviously I had forgotten Mr. McNamara, the best and the brightest, which Kennedy brought in.
MR (01:28:01):
Well, I never liked McNamara. I still did not like him when he wrote his so-called apology back in the (19)90s. And I hated him in [inaudible], and I despised him on the day he died.
SM (01:28:17):
And finally, the women who were the leaders of the women's movement, Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. But I know you guys were criticized, as many people in the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war movement, by being sexist, putting women in secondary roles. And I know I have interviewed people that were in SDS that were female, and they verify that. Just do you have any second thoughts?
MR (01:28:46):
I have a lot of respect for the founders of the women's movement. And even somebody like Robin Morgan, who eventually turned me into the FBI, I have respect for her ideas. I read her book in 1989, the Demon Lover on the sexuality of terrorism, and I learned a lot. But you might take a look at my essay, K and Me.
SM (01:29:19):
Oh, okay. I was reading some of those essays. J and Me. All right. Very good. And I guess that is it. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to?
MR (01:29:33):
No-no. That was good. That was a great interview. Please keep me informed of the progress of your book.
SM (01:29:39):
Oh, I will. And I really hope I can meet you. I want to get pictures of you, because I am doing that with each of the interviews.
MR (01:29:46):
Okay. I can send you any of the pictures in my book.
SM (01:29:51):
Yes. If you could send those, but-
MR (01:29:53):
No, wait. You have to ask for one or two.
SM (01:29:55):
Okay. Yeah, I will do that. Are you doing any lectures on the East Coast?
MR (01:30:01):
Let me see.
SM (01:30:03):
Lectures on the East Coast?
MR (01:30:03):
Let me see. There is one that is under discussion now in Pittsburgh.
SM (01:30:14):
Oh, okay.
MR (01:30:14):
In March. But watch on my website, I will announce it there.
SM (01:30:18):
I hope you can come to Kent State.
MR (01:30:21):
Maybe, we will see. I am involved in a political campaign here, reaching a climax in May, but we will see if there is a good role for me out there, I will come.
SM (01:30:33):
And you are still teaching, are not you?
MR (01:30:36):
At the moment? No. I taught last semester at UNM, University of New Mexico, but at the moment, I am not teaching.
SM (01:30:45):
Well, Mark, thank you very much for spending the time.
MR (01:30:49):
Sure. Good luck, Steve.
SM (01:30:50):
Yeah. And I admire what you did because you stood up and I knew about you when I was your age. You were the same age when I was at Binghamton, and I supported what you are doing. It was just the weatherman part, well, the rest is history, I guess. Mark, you take care and carry on.
MR (01:31:08):
All right.
SM (01:31:09):
Have a great day.
MR (01:31:12):
You too.
SM (01:31:12):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mark Rudd
Contributor
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Rudd, Mark ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews
Description
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Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-01
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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175:20
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ada3be9b38cd77c8da1982e51793d24e.mp3
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1997-07-14
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harry Gaffney
Language
English
Digital Publisher
BInghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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112:37
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":769,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0}">Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Civil Disobedience; Kent State University; Students for a Democratic Society; Anti-War Movement; Weather Underground; Lyndon Johnson; Robert McNamara; Women's Rights Movement; Decolonization; Black Panthers; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Drug Culture; Nonviolence; Class Privilege; Civil Rights Movement; Communal Movement; Woodstock; Folk Song Revival; Black Power; Separation; Malcolm X."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Civil Disobedience; Kent State University; Students for a Democratic Society; Anti-War Movement; Weather Underground; Lyndon Johnson; Robert McNamara; Women's Rights Movement; Decolonization; Black Panthers; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Drug Culture; Nonviolence; Class Privilege; Civil Rights Movement; Communal Movement; Woodstock; Folk Song Revival; Black Power; Separation; Malcolm X.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Educators; Gaffney, Harry--Interviews
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Interview with Harry Gaffney
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Gaffney, Harry ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Educators; Gaffney, Harry--Interviews
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Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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1997-07-14
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.105a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.105b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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112:37
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb4e9e9bf6e952e494982d4d937df9a5.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-11-19
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Lance Goines, 1945-2023
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for A Constructed Roman Alphabet."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.<br /></span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial&quot;}\" data-sheets-userformat=\"{&quot;2&quot;:4993,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}\">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial.</span>"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588}}">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam Memorial</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
82:41
Subject LCSH
Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: David Lance Goines
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 19 November 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:09):
Testing one, two. David Lance Goines. Okay. The first question I want to ask, and then speak loud into your machine, into your phone. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
DG (00:00:34):
Well, there were so many things going on, that one of the biggest changes was development of birth control pills, which truly profoundly altered the way young people engaged in their sexual explorations. That is both an indicator of, creator of what was going on in 1960, a remarkable change in sexual relations. There were a lot of other things. Baby boomers of course were feeling their oats, and the explosion of changes in society due to their powerful influence. The change in music became very much focused on the young generation and the change in sexual morality, the adoption of what had thereto for been peripheral or non-existent drugs. The whole change in art, which once again was pretty much young folks art and fashion. Basically, I would say the tremendous shift in social power from the older generation to the baby boomers.
SM (00:02:16):
Is there one specific event? I think I know what it is, but let us say before the free speech movement, was there one specific event in your life that made you who you are before you even stepped foot on that Berkeley campus?
DG (00:02:29):
Well, it would not have been before I set foot on the Berkeley campus, but Berkeley campus was the big changing event. I mean, I was headed toward a life of probably academic accomplishment. I was headed toward probably a professorship eventually, and that seems like a reasonable place for me to have been headed perhaps, and perhaps an attorney. I did not really know. I had previously been studied for the Luther Print Ministry, and that did not work out. I was pretty much at loose ends as far as a career was concerned and was pursuing my interest in classical literature, Greek and Latin language literature, which I was not doing terribly well, and was going to be shifting more towards liberal arts probably in that sophomore year. But I had become involved, through my roommates, with a number of campus organizations, which were relatively innocuous and also had become involved once again through with the civil rights movement, which I had not previously had much attention paid. Basically, becoming involved with the organization slate caused my expulsion at the beginning of sophomore year, and that of course completely changed my path. Had I not been expelled that day, I would have gone a very, very different path.
SM (00:04:39):
Well, you have already answered the question, how did the free speech movement change your life, but what did this movement say about the boomer generation itself? Did what happened at Berkeley change how the universities treat students and the impact that this has still today on university campuses? The reason why I bring this up, David, because it was very obvious that people like you and Mario and others were understood what if student empowerment was all about. Still there? Hello? Hello?
Speaker 3 (00:05:19):
If you would like to make a call then-
SM (00:05:20):
Oops. What happened at Berkeley? How did this change how universities treat students today? Did you see that this impact has been ongoing, or have universities gone back to the way they were? Still there?
Speaker 3 (00:05:37):
If you would like to make a call, please hang up and try-
DG (00:05:37):
If not, we might have to do this by email.
SM (00:05:50):
Or else I can maybe do it on myself. What did the movement say about the boomer generation, and I speak about the free speech movement, and did what happened at the Berkeley campus back in (19)64 and (19)65 really change how universities looked at students, not only then, but now?
DG (00:06:13):
One change that was very noticeable with the University of California campuses thereafter were built without any central meeting places. Santa Cruz University, for example, has no center. There is no place for students to get together and hold protests. It has separate campuses that are widely distributed, and in fact many, many students do not see students from other departments. The fear of student unrest has haunted the university, and of course right now with the dramatic raise you can see the university is experiencing another episode of unrest. Whether or not they deal with this appropriately or whether they can deal with it appropriately remains seen. I do not think it is going to be the same kind of protests by any means, but the sector of student unrest certainly haunts universities all over the United States and in other countries as well.
SM (00:07:28):
Do you feel, David, part of this is because the people that are now running the universities were boomers and that they may have been non-activist boomers, but they experienced it as students or whatever, and they knew what happened. That is ironic that a lot of them are either boomers or the generation that [inaudible]
DG (00:07:52):
One of the administrators talking today to the newspaper about the student unrest at the University of California said, "In my student days, I would have done the same." His student days were probably my student days, although he seems a little younger. The University of California and other campuses really are having terrible financial problems, and they are dealing with them the way most other large government organizations are, which is by not cutting their gigantic staff, but by raising prices for their services. This is making university students very, very unhappy. However, university students are not going to not get an education simply because it is expensive. Things are going to change. They are going to be really unhappy. They are going to make the administration aware that they are really unhappy, but I do not think they are actually going to accomplish anything. We were dealing with idealistic issues. We were not talking about paying more money for something. We had a very, very strong assessment side as whole. Our lives were changed a great deal, and the whole course of American history was changed a great deal, but I do not think there is any real comparison between what we were doing then and what kids are doing now.
SM (00:09:37):
When you look at the boomer generation though, would not you say that one of their qualities, characteristics is this business of challenging authority, a concept of activism?
DG (00:09:53):
We did so, because we could. We were very powerful, and there were more of us, we had more economic clout, we had a growing political clout. I mean, remember most of us at that time were under 21 and we could not vote. The voting age has since gone down, and the power of this block that was emerging into its voting potential was truly sobering to the elected, the representatives. They knew that in only a very short period of time, we were going to be the ones doing the voting, and we already showed how powerful we were. Just as with the women's movement when the women got the vote in 1919, this tremendously changed the attitude of politicians because they knew that all of a sudden there was a huge voting block that was not there before. They had not had to pay any attention to it at all. The same the happened with our huge voting block that moved pretty much as the unit into the polls. It did not turn out the way we had in mind, of course, because things never do, but we continually developed our economic, social and political power, which is now fully in our hands at this point. People do not give up power once they have gotten it, and we are not going to give up power either. The new generation is going to have to figure out how to get power away from us, probably by waiting around until we die, which will work extremely well.
SM (00:11:41):
What do you think are, list some characteristics that you think define the boomer generation. Again, it is between 70 and 74 million people and we are dealing with a lot of different people here, but if there were characteristics, what would be their strengths and their weaknesses?
DG (00:11:58):
Well, the strengths are that we actually possess a great deal of real power. Weaknesses is that we have basically, now that we are in power, we are quite complacent. We really genuinely changed American society when we think of birth control bill, think of abortion, think of civil rights movement, think of the anti-Vietnam protest, and so on and so forth. The change in morality, the change in the way society behaves and views itself is entirely due to our pressure. But once we got what we wanted, we relaxed. We are also, to some extent, preventing the younger generation from the asserting its power and control because we have it and we do not particularly want to give it up. As I said, they are going to have to be patient, wait till we start dying in much, much larger numbers.
SM (00:12:58):
What do you feel has been the impact that boomers have had on their children and their grandchildren? We are dealing with college students today that are so-called millennials, and they do not really have any problem with their parents, but only about 15-20 percent now of the parents are boomers. They are generation Xers now who are having their kids in college.
DG (00:13:17):
We are the grandparents at this point. Well, we still basically own everything. I mean, we physically own everything and we are responsible. I mean people like me, I bought my house in 1980. My monthly mortgage payment is about half a bunch people pay for an apartment. I bought my shop, the building I am in, in 1980. I got my business started in 1965. I am basically firmly entrenched. I am not having the economic problems that a lot of other people are having. Young people now, I mean when I went to college, my semester fees were $75. I worked my way through school. I had a halftime job as a page in the library, a dollar and a quarter an hour, and I was-was not rich, but I was not having a problem. It is not possible to work your way through college now. It is not possible. Nobody, even at the public university level, can work their way through school. It is not possible. The private universities do not even think about it. What happens is that when I also, when graduated or potentially graduated, I was more or less guaranteed a job simply possessing a college degree, guaranteed a good job. Now possessing a college degree is a guarantee of getting a job as a waiter or a waitress.
SM (00:14:58):
Yeah, you are right.
DG (00:14:58):
You are not equipped to go out into the job market unless you have gone into some art sciences like my nephew who is mechanical engineer or my niece who's a nurse. If you have gone into hard sciences or hard social services, yes you will get a job, but if you have got a degree in medieval French literature, that and 10 cents will get you a cup of coffee. It is worthless. You enter the job market with the degree that basically does not give you anything and that this makes people very, very unhappy. They are deeply in debt and they have got something that is not negotiable currency, whereas when I went in and not only was I not in debt, I was guaranteed good employment. I mean, this makes you very sad and very-very thick apart.
SM (00:15:58):
Right.
DG (00:16:01):
I think that the current generation is bitterly disappointed. I mean, basically we say in jest that my generation used up all the fun, but we not only did we use up all the fun, we used up all the money. Things are bad now, and they are going to get worse. I am the leading edge of social security, and millions and millions of my fellow Americans are going to demand that social security. Well, there is no money for it. You do not get a good job when you graduate from college, you are deeply in debt if you graduate from college, and you are not guaranteed basically anything that we took for granted. We just took for granted all these wonderful things. For my dollar and a quarter an hour job, for one hour's labor. I could buy five or six gallons of gasoline, I could buy 25 candy bars, I could get a pack of cigarettes of beer and a decent meal for my one hour's work. Now how many packs of cigarettes can you get at minimum wage now, one? How many gallons of gasoline can you get for your, let us say $8 an hour, two or three? How many candy bars can you buy, between six and eight? Okay, that is a huge, huge difference. Wages have not kept up the cost of living. For a while, it looked like anybody who wanted to get a house, but that turns out not to work out too well. You cannot get a house now. I mean, you have to be able to, people right now are coming up 40 percent down payments, and that is what allows them to get a loan from a bank. No more of this signature stuff. The economic situation is bad, but my generation, the first generation in history of America, of human race, never to go hungry. We never wanted for food. That had never happened before. My parents were both very badly malnourished during the Depression. My mother went temporarily blind from a vitamin B deficiency. Her parents lived through miserable economic time. They had a very hard time. We did not know what want was. My whole generation, beginning in 1945 when I was born, everything was swell. We were the only intact economic power in the world. We fed ourselves and everybody else. We bought our own cars, we bought our own product. Nobody else could compete with us either financially or economically or in terms of production, and that is over. That has changed.
SM (00:19:27):
Where does the blame? Is there a blame game here? The boomer generation, and you know this being in Berkeley and elsewhere, that they are the many of the boomers felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world. They were going to end racism, sexism, and war. They were going to create a whole new world of love and peace and harmony.
DG (00:19:52):
Good does not it?
SM (00:19:53):
What went wrong?
DG (00:19:55):
Well, nothing went wrong. You cannot change everything just because you want to. Also, think there is the law of unintended consequences that crops up. If you want the Peace Corps and you want to help all the starving people in Africa, you have to realize that what you are creating is a dependent population that you are going to have to keep on feeding because they do not have the ability to feed themselves. When you run out of money and you decide you cannot keep feeding everyone in Africa, what is going to happen to those people? Well, they are going to get really mad. You mean well, you really do mean well, but the road to hell is paved with good intention. We have created all sorts of whirlwinds. That tornadoes out there without really meaning to, we did not mean harm, we did not end war. Just wanting to end war is not going to make it end. It does not take two people to fight, it only takes one, and you cannot spread your message of peace, love, and good vibes to those who are not interested. He comes up and starts pounding on you with his fist. Well, either fight back or not, but that has nothing to do with what he has done. My message of peace and love will not really work. It is not one [inaudible] We had tremendous economic and manufacturing power, and because of that we did not develop anything that we perhaps should have. For example, small cars. We did not need small cars. We had huge roads, we had plenty of gas with really cheap. We did not have to pay any attention to the small car market, so in the 1970s, there was a small car market that had been created by foreign manufacturers and there was absolutely nothing that American manufacturers had so the market began to shift toward foreigners. Had we developed small cars in the 1950s and 1960s, would have been a very different story, but we did not because we did not have to. Now, I look down the street and I see oh zero American cars. That would be not one single American car. I am seeing all foreign cars. They are German, they are Japanese. Nope. They are German car. Because of Toyota, right. Where are the American cars? Well, they are going out of business. Why are they going out of business? Because they did not respond to a market that they did not know was there. It is noticeable, it is not bad. They did not have to change, so they did not.
SM (00:22:58):
How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation? You see them all the time. George Will, whenever he gets a chance, oftentimes writes articles blaming the problems of our society today on that generation that grew up in the (19)60s and (19)70s. I believe he is part of it, but he has written a lot about the failure of that time. Newt Gingrich, when he came into power in (19)94, talked about it and he still does occasionally, that all the problems, the drug culture, the lack of the sexual revolution, all the concept of everybody is a victim, all these things, the welfare state, everything. Breakup of the American family, divorce rate, all goes back to those times when boomers were young and whether in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the way they lived their lives so the problems were all during that time. The Democratic Party even broke apart because of that.
DG (00:23:59):
Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that they are absolutely right. So what? What are they going to do? Get back to the way back machine and go back to the 1945 and me not being conceived? How are they going to change anything by their pointing and complaining? Does not make the slightest difference. I do not pay any attention to it. They are remarks are meaningless. Are you going to go back and un-invent birth control pills? Are you going to go back and change any of the developments that have happened? Are you going to not let us go to the moon? How are you going to do all that? Well, you are not going to do it. It is a waste of my breath to even respond to their criticism, and therefore will not respond to their criticism.
SM (00:24:46):
How about the movements? Because one of the things we all know historically, not only what happened at the free speech movement, but the civil rights movement was already strong, and the anti-war movement became very big at the time boomers were young, but it also spawned other movements like the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Chicano, Native American, the environmental movement. It goes on and on. Could you talk about those movements and how important they were in defining the generation?
DG (00:25:15):
They were happening anyway. One thing that is important to remember is that the mill does not make the water run, my great-grandmother often said. An example is the Clairol hair coloring product. They did not create women's demand for hair coloring. They recognized that there was a product that would do it and they capitalized on it. The women's movement has been in continuous operation since about 1795, and we did not create it. We merely responded to what was already going on. Do they want to go back and not give women the vote and have all that fun again? I do not think so. The changes in society have far more to do with technological changes and sheer mass. When I was born, there were 135 million people in the United States. How many are there now? Triple that? Did we cause this terrible thing to happen? No, we did not. Right? The welfare system that we inherited was a product of the late 1940s and early 1950s. We had nothing, whatever to do that. I was seven years old. The welfare system and the terrible things that have come in consequence of that would be perhaps you can blame Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Be my guest. But just because there is a problem does not mean there is a solution, and if there is a solution, the famous quote, "To every question is a simple, easy to understand, wrong answer." The environmental situation in which we are was certainly not started by us. That was begun by Rachel Carlson in 1963. Well, I would have been how old? 20? No, 18. Sorry, I did not start it. The birth control pill, that was started by Margaret-
SM (00:27:29):
Sanger.
DG (00:27:31):
Margaret Sanger and Katherine McCormick. That was 1958. I was eight. No, wait. How old was I? 13. I did not do it. Sorry, wrong guy. These people have complaints about the things that have happened in our society, they should complain to the preceding generation, if anything.
SM (00:27:56):
One must say though, the anti-war movement was something very strong to the boomers, and particularly your thoughts on how important the boomers were on college campuses and ending that Vietnam War?
DG (00:28:08):
I do not think we were terribly important in ending the war. We were very important to making it quite clear that we were not happy about being drafted. There were wars that had been going on for quite a while before that people demonstrated great unhappiness with, but the wars went on nonetheless. The mistake of the powers that be was in drafting college students. College students did not want to go. Do not draft the ones who can fight back, draft the ones who cannot fight back. I do not know what result, I mean that war was a mistake. It was pretty obvious that we had gotten off on the wrong foot. But unfortunately, once you start something, just because you realize you have made a mistake does not mean you can end it. If I look out there and I see, oh my God, there is a huge forest fire. Let me blow out the match that I just started it with, what does that do? That does nothing. Right? Just because there is a big forest fire and you started it with your match, does not mean that blowing out the match have any effect. I know what caused it, but there is nothing I can do about it. I mean, if you had asked me to go talk to Ho Chi Minh, maybe things would be different, but I was not old enough.
SM (00:29:43):
When did the?
DG (00:29:43):
[inaudible] was 1954. I was what? Eight, seven.
SM (00:29:47):
Right. Yeah. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
DG (00:29:55):
1960s began in 1960 and they ended in 1970. I mean, what do you mean?
SM (00:30:00):
Was there a watershed moment that you knew that this-
DG (00:30:03):
[inaudible] event? No, there were many, many things. There were many, many things that contributed to it, and the 1960s is just a convenient calendar moment. Delete the calendar. It had no effect. There were so many things going on. A lot of it had to do with the economic power of those who became recognized as the boomers. A lot of it had to do with the immense technological and social power of the United States. After World War II, a lot of us had to do with amazing technological changes that were quite unthought of in the 1940s. Take computers for example. They just all came together with the confluence of things. You can start at any level you want. You can start talking about the combine harvester and chemical fertilizer, you can talk about changes in metallurgy. Where do you want to start? Everything came together, and it was largely because of our extremely large number and our tremendous self. We had a huge amount of power, and we used the power because when you have power, you use it. But what you do [inaudible] First, we asked permission nicely and then when that turned out not to work too well, we did what we goddamn well pleased, and no one could stop us.
SM (00:31:52):
People that say that, well, (19)60s really began when John Kennedy was killed and it really ended either Kent State or when the helicopter flew off the building in Saigon in (19)75.
DG (00:32:08):
They are free to say that if they wish.
SM (00:32:19):
Right.
DG (00:32:19):
But there are no beginnings, there are no endings.
SM (00:32:21):
I am just speculating here. If I had 500 people off from all over the country in an auditorium and we took a vote on the event that shaped their line lives the most, what do you think the number one event would be?
DG (00:32:34):
Depends who these people are. You are just thinking them at random?
SM (00:32:39):
Yeah-yeah. Just boomers. Anybody born to-
DG (00:32:42):
Oh, someone born after 1945 and before 1960?
SM (00:32:44):
(19)64.
DG (00:32:46):
(19)64, whatever it is. I do not know. There would be probably many-many answers. There were huge, amazing technological things that happened. Man landing on the moon is pretty darn dramatic. The relaxation of social [inaudible] as far as literature, movie, books, and the like. The computer, probably I would have to say technologically the computer. This is having as much effect on society as the invention of printing by movable type and 1456, and the change is happening every bit as fast. Socially, the sheer numbers of people who came into existence after World War II in the United States, they are simple numbers. They are simple numbers and their immense economic power. Young people always want to have sex, and drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, that is what they all want. But we could actually get away with it, so many of it. They had so much power. Basically, the grownups could not stop us. They tried. Now we are the grown-ups.
SM (00:34:16):
When the (19)60s happened and a lot of the challenge of two authority took place on college campuses, I would go back to the (19)50s when things seemed to be so calm and most of the boomers were in elementary school. They had great Christmases and Thanksgivings. They were always with their parents. Parents were providing them with...
DG (00:34:36):
Unlike Ronald Reagan.
SM (00:34:37):
A lot. Of course, we watched black and white television, and of course we were had the thread of the nuclear bomb all the time, but the kids I was around never really thought that much about the nuclear bomb.
DG (00:34:50):
You are actually buying Ronald Reagan's stick and chain world.
SM (00:34:54):
No, I am not buying it.
DG (00:34:55):
[inaudible]
SM (00:34:57):
But the question is, what was it? Was there something about the (19)50s that helped shape young people? Even if they were only reaching junior high school when 1960 arrived, but was there something about the (19)50s that somehow helped shape them, whether it be television or?
DG (00:35:16):
Never went hungry. Never wanted for food. It had never happened before. This is extremely important. We never went hungry. We did not know what privation was. We expected whatever we wanted, and we got it. The 1950s were, remember, right after World War I, World War II, and the Great Depression. People were poor. They were poor for a long time. One whole generation. My father, for example. Now my grandfather born in World War I, then there was the Great Depression, then there was World War II, and then there is the (19)50s where it can buy a new refrigerator for the very first time. You can buy a car. You do not have to drive that 1932 Ford anymore. You could buy whatever you wanted. It was wonderful. There was everything. Buy anything you wanted to, whereas for the preceding, oh what, 70 years, had not been able to buy anything, right? During the war, could you buy a new dress? No, you could not. Did you get all the butter you wanted? No, you could not. Get a new refrigerator? No. Did you get a new car? No, they were not making cars or refrigerators. In the 1950s, all of a sudden, not only could you get a new refrigerator, but you get a new refrigerator that actually worked. You could get a new car that was actually pretty good. My grandfather, neither my father nor my grandfather had that new car ever in their lives. My father's first car was in 1934 Dodge, and it was a piece of junk but it was all there was. You were not risking your life in some war. You were not starving because you did not have any money. You were not basically living in a barter economy where you were trading eggs for say, gasoline. It was a wonderful world and that the world I was born into, and I did not know any different. I had never been in a world with privation.
SM (00:37:42):
But you admit though, that there was privation in the (19)50s because when you watched black and white TV and you watched the Mickey Mouse Club and you saw all those Hobby Duty and all the television shows, you never saw people of color.
DG (00:37:55):
Well, there might have been privation, but compared to what had been going on before, believe me, it was nothing. I mean, you can say, yeah, people were poor, people were unhappy. Well, people are always poor and they are always unhappy, but compared to the 1930s, compared to the war years, compared to World War I, get real. Come on. Do not try to get the private. A person on welfare now has a better standard of living than a middle class family of 1900. A middle class American family of 1900 would have nothing like the expectations set up Negro on welfare in Oakland gets. Nothing. No comparison. Clean water, good streets, automobile, television, telephone, electrical power, adequate, safe food. Come on. There is no comparison.
SM (00:38:54):
Do you feel that? This is a question I just want to ask, and we asked the same question to Senator Musky a year before he passed away, when I took students down to Washington, DC and he had an interesting response that we did not expect. But here is the question. I want to read this to you. It says, "Do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth. The division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who were against it, between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has healed many of the veterans and their families, but what has it really done to heal the nation as James Scruggs says in the title of his book?" Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this about 40 years later? Where it is a statement time heals all wounds, the truth. I say this because when we asked Senator Musky this, we were thought he was going to talk about 1968 and all those divisions at the Chicago Convention, and his response is we have not healed since the Civil War. He was in the hospital, and he said he had saw the Ken Burn series and it really touched him with 400,000 people that died and almost a generation wiped out and the population was obviously a lot smaller than it is today, but just your thoughts on this is there an issue of healing?
DG (00:40:29):
Okay, the first place, you have asked a question that contains its own answer, and consequence I cannot answer it. You say, what are we doing about the rift that was created? That means I have to say there was a riff. I do not believe it. I cannot answer your question. It is what we call a false question. This is not the kind of thing you cannot get away with in a court of law, leading the witness, right? You might say, was there a division? If there was a division, is it healing in the first place? I say there is always people who want A and people who do not want A and people who want B and do not want B. This is constantly going on. I do not think you are going to find people. You will have no trouble, for example, finding people who are unhappy about women being given the to vote in 1919. You will have no trouble finding people who are unhappy about that. You will have no trouble finding people unhappy about everything. It is the way it is. People are unhappy, or they have nothing better to do. They will be unhappy about something. Right? Was there a division? Of course there was a division. Is it healing? Who cares? So what? It is over with. Cannot go back and change it, right? If I could go back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt Administration and talk to him about some of the problems that were created by his wonderful Social Security Administration and by the marvelous welfare system [inaudible] in place and say, "It is not going to work. It is going to do terrible things. You cannot build a pyramid scheme. If you take people and make them dependent upon you for their lives, it is not going to work. It is going to create terrible problems in society." If I were to say do not do it, do not force people to give you part of their money and then guarantee that you were going to support them for as long as they worked in a [inaudible] I am accustomed. My father's contribution to social security was critically small. I mean he earned $10,000 a year, big bucks, but how much did he put into social security and then how much did he take out? He lived a good long life after he retired, maybe 25 years, and all that time he is getting money and a lot of money too. There was nothing like the $300 a year that he put in. I mean, you actually think he is going to live on $300 a year? No, he cannot live on $300 a year. Where is that money coming from? Well, from the next generation. Okay, now where is your pyramid scheme? Your pyramids team will always fail, and that is what social security is, a pyramids scheme, and it is failing. I cannot do anything about it. I cannot go back and change it. There is nothing I can do. If you ask me, were there division? Of course there were division. What can I do about it? Nothing. This is not like voluntarily turning off the water. Honey, would you please turn off the water? Sure, I will go turn it off right now. This is not like that. This is the past. Cannot change it. You cannot even recognize what happened. One of the fallacies of sociology is that it actually thinks it knows what is going on. They actually think they know what is going on. Do you know any economists who are not ashamed of their trade right now? Did they predict this big meltdown? No, they did not. It seems blindingly obvious in retrospect.
SM (00:44:30):
Do you think the wall has done, and you have probably been to the wall, have not you?
DG (00:44:34):
The Vietnam Memorial?
SM (00:44:34):
Yeah.
DG (00:44:34):
Yeah. Beautiful.
SM (00:44:38):
Do you think that is done? Jan Scruggs book is all about, he thought this was the first step toward healing the nation beyond even the veterans. I go there every year for Memorial Day and Veterans Day.
DG (00:44:51):
I suppose these people have to write books to make a living. I think that is nonsense.
SM (00:44:56):
Okay.
DG (00:44:57):
You actually think building a sculpture is going to undo 58,000 deaths. Ask the wives and mothers sometimes, ask the girlfriends, I have a neighbor who had just died, whose son was killed in World War II, who pined all her life long for a lover who was killed in World War I. Ask the wives and mothers of all those people who were killed how do they feel about it? Are they going to heal? No, they are not going to heal. There is no healing. These people are dead. You cannot heal that. Get over it, kind of. Still there?
SM (00:45:45):
Yep. I am here. Let me change the tape. I got to turn my tape over. This leads into my next question, which is a question on the issue of trust whether the boomer just generation is not a trusting generation. I say this-
DG (00:46:01):
Well, why should we be? We were lied to constantly.
SM (00:46:05):
Yep. That is why I brought up because of the Watergate, the Tonkin Golf Resolution, we even saw Eisenhower lie about U-2, and there seemed to be no respect for anyone in position of authority.
DG (00:46:17):
Well, a politician's job is to lie. That is their job. That is what we pay them for. We pay them to do two things that we do not want. One is make damn laws all the time, whether we need them or not. I mean, that is what we ask them to do. We say, "Okay, we are going to elect you to make a bunch of laws," and that is what they do. They take us at our word, they make a bunch of laws. They do not know what they are doing. They mess things up. The second thing is that in order to get reelected, because half the population is really mad at them all the time, they have to lie all the time. It is a habit. They do not even mean it. There is no malice. They just lie. It is what they do. Do I trust politicians? No, I do not. Do I have any alternative? No, I do not. I cannot live in anarchic society. I cannot live somewhere else. I live here. I live now. I live in the 21st century. I cannot live some other [inaudible] or some other place. This is what I have got. They are liars, so I do not trust them. So what?
SM (00:47:23):
Do you believe what political scientists often say is that to the lack of trust in your government is actually a healthy thing, because by just-
DG (00:47:33):
[inaudible] very best of health in that case.
SM (00:47:35):
Yeah, I want to be, you are a great artist. I have been looking at some of your work, and we think of you in the free speech movement, but boy, you are one heck of an artist. I am going to eventually buy some of your works and everything, but how do the arts define the boomer generation from other generations before and after? I think I mentioned in my note, we all think of the arts at that time, we think of Andy Warhol and Peter Max's posters and all those other things during that time. But what were the messages of the artwork that took place when the boomers were young that have been ongoing since that time, and is it is the art from that period and the people that grew up in that period a reflection of the times which were rebellious and non-conformist? Just your thoughts on the art itself.
DG (00:48:31):
Well, I think art is basically something that each generation reevaluates and create for itself. Let us take an example of Vermeer. Vermeer was, during his lifetime, largely unrecognized. I do not believe he sold any paintings. He was utterly obscure until the late 19th century when one of one particular critic rediscovered him, and through a series of amusing circumstances, he became more and more prominent. Now, whereas in 1875, you could have bought girl with a pearl earring for six guilders, which no matter how you cut it is not very much money. I do not believe you could buy that painting for any sum, whatever. I mean, let us suppose if I said I will give you $100 billion for that painting, you probably would turn me down. Okay, what happened? Well, a new generation came along and reevaluated the art that had been rejected by an older generation. The same thing exactly happened to been Van Gogh. He sold, I believe, one painting during his life, but maybe none. That which was reviled by an earlier generation is treasured by a new one because everything changes. Van Gogh is not any different of course. Van Gogh paintings are absolutely utterly the same paintings that he painted, but our attitudes toward him is entirely different. Our attitudes toward our own art, there are artists who were unbelievably famous and wealthy in their day whom you have never heard of. I assure you, you have never heard of them. Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema, have you ever heard of him?
SM (00:50:16):
No.
DG (00:50:17):
Okay. He was the most famous artist in the world in the late 19th century. He made more money than anybody ever, ever made, and you have never heard of him. All right. There you have it. Right? We do not like his art. We think it is silly. It is coming back. Be patient. But art is our own. We like it because it is ours. We do not like it because it is good. We do not like it because it addresses human issues that are eternal. We like it because it belongs to us. It is ours, of course we like it. We like our own stuff. The old Yiddish saying, "A fart has no nose." Of course, we like our own stuff. It is ours. Check back in 100 years to see what people think of entirely white paintings with long, long explanations attached to them. Check back and see what people think of crucifixes encased in plastic bags filled with urine. Check back. Let me know what happens. I doubt it is going to make it.
SM (00:51:28):
Why was Warhol and Peter Max so popular with young people, boomers?
DG (00:51:33):
Because they spoke to their generation. They are ours. You like your own stuff. Right? I personally never cared for them, but then again, I am in the minority evidently. I do not like Van Gogh either, so hey, I am a minority. I beg your pardon?
SM (00:52:00):
No, go right ahead. Continue.
DG (00:52:00):
You know like your own stuff. Our generation likes things that our generation does. The next generation is probably going to throw a lot of it away, but then they will create their own stuff that they like. I do not know what posterity is going to think of me, and frankly, I do not care. I will be dead. Do not make much money when you are dead. I do not care. I am a working artist right now. I do art for a living. I am really happy to do that. I am very grateful that I can make a living doing what I [inaudible] and I get paid for it. My brother, who is a jazz musician gets paid to play music. Boy is he happy, right? He does not say, "What is posterity going to think of me?" He says, "How can I pay the rent?" That is what I say too. I am glad people are paying me to do what I love to do, and I am glad I am recognized and that people like my artwork, and my brothers really glad that people pay him to play music and he is really glad that they like it. But neither one of us gives a hoot in hell about what the next generation thinks, [inaudible]
SM (00:53:05):
How about, you are talking about art. Let us talk about music. The music is really something that defines the boomers, and not only in terms of folk music, rock music, and certainly the Motown sound, but how important was that with respect to delivering the messages that many of the youth had and the impact they had on the generation?
DG (00:53:26):
Just like any other generation, it is theirs. That music is ours. In 1920, our music was jazz. We created it. It is ours, it belongs to us, and it really helps the grownups do not like it. That makes us very, very happy. Grownups do not like anything that their kids too. Grownups do not want their kids to become independent. Grownups want their kids to be kids, and kids want to be grownups. I like my own music. I like my generation of music because it is mine, and I do not like that new rap music. Does that sound vaguely familiar?
SM (00:54:05):
Yes.
DG (00:54:08):
I do not like that new rap music. Why do not I like it? It is just noise. It is jungle music. Cannot understand the lyrics. It is all about sex and violence. Oh, that is me quoting my dad when he first heard rock and roll. I am quoting my dad, and you know what his dad said in the 1920s when he was looking at jazz? It is jungle music. It is just noise. Cannot understand the lyrics, all about sex. It is same stuff, right? Nothing ever changes. We like our music, but it is ours. That is why we like it.
SM (00:54:46):
Do not forget, Elvis came about in the (19)50s.
DG (00:54:49):
We love Elvis. He is ours.
SM (00:54:52):
Yeah.
DG (00:54:53):
Belongs to what? He was banned by the grownups. Remember Ed Sullivan?
SM (00:55:01):
Yes.
DG (00:55:05):
Cutting him off at the hips.
SM (00:55:05):
Yep.
DG (00:55:05):
Ooh, boy did that make my parents mad.
SM (00:55:05):
I think the Doors when they were on Ed Sullivan, Jim Morrison could not say a couple words from his music either.
DG (00:55:12):
We are in charge now. Right? My father is dead. He does not get to say what kind of music I listen to anymore.
SM (00:55:20):
David, what were the books? What were the books that you read and some of your peers read in the (19)60s that you think had an influence on the early boomers?
DG (00:55:35):
Well, honestly, I would say that it was not the books that we read. It was the books that we could not read. What we cared about was being prevented from reading, for example, Ulysses or Tropic of Cancer, or Lolita. These books are neither better nor worse than the other books, but we were not allowed to read them. The Supreme Court would not let us, and we changed that about as fast as we could. The important things are what is of our generation. The important things were what we were not allowed to read. When in 1952, when the comic books suddenly disappeared, that made me really mad. I was only seven, but my favorite comic books were the horror comics and the war comics, which was cauldron, and all of a sudden they all disappeared. Well, I believe me, I never forgot that. It was not so much what we did read. It was what we were not allowed to read. That is what I think made the big difference is that we forced the whole system to allow us to read anything we wanted to read. Then we either read or did not read. It is the thought that you do not have to go out and buy Lolita, and you do not have to read it if you do not want to, but there is nothing that prevents you from doing so, whereas that was absolutely not the case in the 1950s.
SM (00:57:06):
How influential were the beat writers in terms, because in the (19)50s, lack of respect for authority or rebellious and they were even ahead of their time.
DG (00:57:18):
For one thing, remember there were not terribly many of them. Another thing is an awful lot of their work could not be sent through the mail. Howl, for example, how would you get a copy of Powell? Could not mail it. They could not buy it on the news stand. It was not in the library. How influential were these words? They were influential because they were banned. Take away the ban, the stuff is pretty boring. I mean, Alan Ginsberg, come on, talks about nothing but his dick. Really boring, but prohibit it, and suddenly become fantastically interesting. When I read Howl, it was behind closed doors, my teacher could have been fired for allowing us to read it, in fact recommended it. That made it really cool. If you just said, "Okay, we are going to assign, you have to read Howl." Come on, this is terrible stuff, but told me I cannot read it, oh, very different story.
SM (00:58:23):
I have got three quotes here from three big personalities from that period, and which of these do you think better defines the era? Obviously the Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." We saw that all the time. Peter Max, he used to always have this quote on many of his posters. "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." The third one obviously is the Bobby Kennedy quote, which is actually I think a Henry David Thoreau quote, and that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was very popular amongst the boomers and you still hear that quote today, but those are very popular quotes and statements and on posters back then. Is there one over the other or do they all kind of define the era?
DG (00:59:17):
They are all contentious content. The case of Malcolm X is probably, that would ring the truest, but believe me, I would rather lose the ability to understand the English language than agree with Peter Max. Politicians say what politicians say. Who pays any attention to them? I do not think I could agree very much with any of them. By any means necessary, what do you mean? You do not mean that. You cannot possibly mean that. That is a mad man talking. Besides, you always get things you do not want. You think you are doing A, in fact, you are really doing A subprime, which is extremely different. You think you are in control of your actions, but you are not. You are created by your time, you are created by circumstances. We are far, far more influenced by technology. We are far more influenced by changes in society that we do not even are really conscious of. There is some swell sounding quotes you can put out there. I like Robin Williams myself. "If you remember, you were not there." One of my favorites.
SM (01:00:49):
Yeah. Another one you hear a lot and with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock is that everybody claims they were there. They were not.
DG (01:00:55):
Yeah. There is also the number of people in Candlestick Park during the 1989 earthquake is quite surprising.
SM (01:01:05):
Wow.
DG (01:01:07):
Several million. I did not realize it was that big. There was a big football game in 1982, the great Cal-Stanford football game.
SM (01:01:18):
No, I was out there then, and that is when the musicians of the band came on the field.
DG (01:01:22):
You know how many people watched that happen? Well, I know for a fact 6,000 people sitting in that stadium, so the hundreds of thousands of people that I have talked to, it is just not possible somehow. I listened to it on the radio. I suppose that counts.
SM (01:01:42):
Actually, my sister was out there in (19)89. She worked at an insurance company, then she could see Candlestick Park when she was coming out, and she felt like she was having a dizzy spell and got down on the grass and all of her friends were going to the car.
DG (01:01:55):
Along with everybody else in the Bay Area.
SM (01:01:56):
Yeah.
DG (01:01:58):
Well I mean, the thing is that social events are far more powerful. There is things that we are not really conscious of, things that we do not really think about. People, if they are really good, will say things that reflect the time well. They will have a Henry David Thoreau or a William Shakespeare or an Ezra Hound who is capable of expressing the time, and if they are really good, they will express times that come after them. Shakespeare is holding up pretty darn well. But the whole business of, do any of those three statements mean anything to me in terms of the (19)60s? No. They are just talk. I prefer Robin Williams. Makes a lot more sense, besides it is funny.
SM (01:02:55):
Yeah. I would like you just to go in back to those days on that Berkeley campus. I am curious as I know that Mario Savio has passed away, but what has become as some of the other leaders of the movement? I know that Bettina is a professor at-
DG (01:03:15):
Well, most of them were academically oriented and continued in their academic direction. There were a few people who fell by the wayside. There were a few people like me, and a very few people like me, lives were dramatically, utterly, totally changed. Most people just afterwards got up and went right back to doing what they were doing. There were very few people, such as myself, who did not. I did not go back to school. I did not pursue my academic career. I became a printer and a graphic designer, and that would never have happened in one million years had I not been expelled. The vast majority of people who participated in free speech groups were academically oriented and continued to be academically oriented, went right on to do what they meant to do. Very, very few exceptions to that.
SM (01:04:15):
What is interesting is that Clark Kerr's name, he wrote a book that I had to read in graduate school, which is called the Uses of the university.
DG (01:04:23):
I have read it.
SM (01:04:25):
He talked all about the multi-versity, and students were challenging the corporate mentality. It has not changed at all today.
DG (01:04:32):
He wrote that before the free speech movement.
SM (01:04:36):
Yeah. I thought it was right on what he was saying, but the fifth-
DG (01:04:41):
Oh, he was treating university like a big factory. He basically said the product is knowledge and the students are what we turn out, and we have to run it like a factory. That is neither true or it is not. Does not make any difference. The university now is basically trying to run itself like a big, complicated, fancy, high-quality factory. That may or may not work. We will see. I do not know. University of California has very much formed by opinions of Clark Kerr. He had a very strong effect on administration. His career, and as did most of the bureaucrat's career by the free speech movement and the succeeding events, the anti-war movement, which they were powerless to prevent, and they were basically blamed for it. But the university is doing this fine thing and bigger than it ever was, and may become private. It may become corporate. It will keep on [inaudible] students talk.
SM (01:05:59):
Yeah. Ronald Regan obviously had a big role because-
DG (01:06:02):
Very, very big. Extremely big, and we basically him to be elected. Blame someone for that. You can blame the boomer generation for Ronald [inaudible] if you want to and be quite correct in doing so.
SM (01:06:15):
David, it has been an hour, and I know the last 20 minutes is basically responding to names of personalities in terms of period. You want to do that another time?
DG (01:06:28):
Let me take a quick look at my phone here and see how much power I have got left in it. Hang on.
SM (01:06:31):
Okay.
DG (01:06:31):
It says it is about 60 percent. Let us go through that pretty quickly.
SM (01:06:40):
Okay. I guess these can be just quick responses. They do not have to be any in depth, just gut level reactions when you hear these terms or personality. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
DG (01:06:57):
Nothing. Whatever.
SM (01:06:58):
Okay. Maya Lin, a very fortunate artist, quite beautiful. I like it, but I was not involved in the Vietnam [inaudible] or conflict. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
DG (01:07:11):
I know they were events in which people were killed and injured and that they had quite a catalyzing effect, but that is about it.
SM (01:07:20):
What does Watergate mean to you?
DG (01:07:23):
Corrupt politicians getting caught as usual.
SM (01:07:27):
Woodstock?
DG (01:07:30):
Was not there.
SM (01:07:34):
1968, the entire year.
DG (01:07:38):
The moon. Also, pretty exciting things going on in France as I remember.
SM (01:07:44):
Okay. Of course, that was the year of the-
DG (01:07:46):
The country.
SM (01:07:46):
That was the year of the assassinations too.
DG (01:07:50):
Yeah, but that is always going on.
SM (01:07:53):
Counterculture.
DG (01:07:56):
Nice words, not very meaningful.
SM (01:08:00):
How about hippies and yippies?
DG (01:08:03):
Two disgusting people. The truly, they are people, basically the extremely irresponsible end of the 1960s. The drugs are the drug crowds.
SM (01:08:21):
Communes.
DG (01:08:24):
Never had anything to do with them really. Social experiments that did not work too well.
SM (01:08:29):
Students for Democratic Society.
DG (01:08:33):
Bunch of thinks. I have no love for them at all.
SM (01:08:37):
Then the Weathermen, were there?
DG (01:08:40):
Crazy, loony, not safe.
SM (01:08:44):
How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War who took over the anti-war movement when SDS was gone?
DG (01:08:51):
I do not know much about it.
SM (01:08:54):
Okay. Then Tet.
DG (01:08:54):
I am sorry, Tet?
SM (01:08:58):
Tet.
DG (01:08:58):
T-E-T?
SM (01:09:00):
Yes.
DG (01:09:01):
You mean the Tet Offensive?
SM (01:09:02):
Yes.
DG (01:09:03):
Well, was it very important to them in the Vietnam conquest.
SM (01:09:11):
How about, I am going to give some names now. Jane Fonda.
DG (01:09:15):
She was really good in Barbarella. I liked that costume a lot.
SM (01:09:23):
Yeah. Tom Hayden.
DG (01:09:27):
No opinion either way. Some sort of politician if I remember.
SM (01:09:31):
Annie Hoffman.
DG (01:09:34):
The nut case.
SM (01:09:35):
Jerry Rubin.
DG (01:09:37):
Loudmouth nut case.
SM (01:09:39):
Both of them? Okay. How about Timothy Leary?
DG (01:09:46):
Very interesting guy. I think he got a little unhinged from taking too much LSD, but he was sure, right. One of those people, you got to say, "Wow, that guy is really smart. Too bad he took so much LSD."
SM (01:10:01):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
DG (01:10:04):
Loved Dr. Spock. I actually met him once. He basically empowered a whole generation to think for themselves as opposed to having doctors tell him what to think.
SM (01:10:17):
Phillip and Daniel Berrigan.
DG (01:10:20):
Lawyer, was not he?
SM (01:10:21):
They were the Catholic priests.
DG (01:10:24):
Oh, that is right. Had nothing to do with Vietnam conflict. Very courageous probably.
SM (01:10:30):
Okay. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
DG (01:10:35):
Well, Nixon was a good president and a bad man. Spiro Agnew was a fool, a joke, a disaster, and got what was coming to him.
SM (01:10:47):
Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.
DG (01:10:51):
Martin Luther King Jr. certainly tried hard and meant well. Very good orator. Malcolm X, he did not like white people very much. Pretty open about it. It does not seem to bother white people very much that he did not like them, so he seemed to get along perfectly fine.
SM (01:11:09):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
DG (01:11:14):
I am so glad they did not get elected.
SM (01:11:18):
All right. LBJ and Robert McNamara.
DG (01:11:22):
Well, LBJ was the most competent second in command, was unfortunately thrust in position first in command, at which he did not do a very good job. He really tried hard and he meant well. Robert McNamara, I do not have any opinion about it.
SM (01:11:40):
How about the Black Panthers, which includes Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group.
DG (01:11:49):
Dangerous opportunists.
SM (01:11:52):
Okay. Daniel Ellsberg.
DG (01:11:56):
New York Times reporter. What was he?
SM (01:11:59):
He was the Pentagon Papers.
DG (01:12:01):
That is right. Courageous, I suppose.
SM (01:12:05):
How about Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey?
DG (01:12:10):
Well, Hubert Horatio Humphrey was, Humphrey was kind of a silly guy. Ronald Reagan was very-very popular, very much loved, basically catapulted into power as a reaction against all the things that were going on in 1960s. I cannot comment on his presidential policies. I do know that under his administration, like many that had gone before him, which quite nearly obliterated human race but I do not think that is particularly his fault. I will [inaudible] judgment. Check back in 50 years. I will let you know.
SM (01:12:45):
George Wallace.
DG (01:12:48):
Governor of Mississippi?
SM (01:12:50):
Mm-hmm.
DG (01:12:56):
The man who tried to make history stop just because he did not like it.
SM (01:13:02):
Barry Goldwater.
DG (01:13:04):
Would have been an awfully good president. I would like to run history back again and try him. Be really different.
SM (01:13:13):
The Equal Rights Amendment that in the end failed.
DG (01:13:16):
The ERA?
SM (01:13:19):
Yes.
DG (01:13:19):
Well, it just shows up [inaudible] politician.
SM (01:13:26):
How about the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, some of the, Shirley Chisholm, the female leaders of the Women's movement.
DG (01:13:35):
The female spokesperson.
SM (01:13:37):
Yes.
DG (01:13:38):
There is a big difference between the leader and spokes.
SM (01:13:41):
I think Betty Friedan was a leader.
DG (01:13:43):
Well, maybe. But I would say they basically articulated what a lot of people could not articulate themselves as well, and they spoke for a whole huge generation of women who had basically been getting a pretty raw deal, and for the most part still are.
SM (01:14:01):
What do you think of Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter?
DG (01:14:09):
Jimmy Carter was a great, or I should say is a great fool. I do not know. Gerald Ford, I would have no particular opinion about him.
SM (01:14:16):
Of course, you have already talked about Ronald Reagan. How about George Bush Sr. who said the Vietnam syndrome is over, and Ronald Reagan, of course, he said that we were back from where we were before the boomers.
DG (01:14:32):
You have to remember my opinion on politicians are not high.
SM (01:14:35):
Yeah. Right. The final two of individuals here are Bill Clinton and George Bush, the last president. When I have asked people do who they are really define who the boomers are, I get amazing responses. That they really are symbols of the boomer generation. I do not know what your thoughts are on Bill Clinton and George Bush, but.
DG (01:15:05):
Well, my opinion of politicians is not enhanced by George Bush. The Clinton Administration basically continued policies and created policies that have come home to roost now. Seemed like a really good idea to do all the things that went on during his administration, but now everything's totally fallen apart. I am not going to blame them for it. Politicians are necessary. They are necessary for society, and ours is our democracy has worked pretty darn well, thank you. I am not going to complain too much, I guess, but I do not like politicians and I do not like what they do. I think it is a waste of time and money, but I can think of a whole lot worse systems, so I am not really complaining. Our current president is trying hard and doing the best he can. It turns into a horrible mess the way it always does, but I like the democratic process. I do not think we get any worse leaders than anybody else.
SM (01:16:17):
How about John Dean?
DG (01:16:19):
Who?
SM (01:16:19):
John Dean.
DG (01:16:19):
[inaudible]
SM (01:16:23):
Pardon?
DG (01:16:24):
You are going to ask me about politicians, I am going to tell you I do not like them.
SM (01:16:26):
Oh, okay.
DG (01:16:28):
Leave the politicians off your list.
SM (01:16:30):
Very good, very good. When the best books are written, which is probably after we are gone, the best books are often written on any subject are 50 years after an event. What do you think the history books will say about the boomer generation once?
DG (01:16:47):
Having Written one, very long one myself, I can tell you what they think. They think it was swell. I had a great time myself. Have some other person who did not write a book or some other person [inaudible] different book.
SM (01:17:03):
Yeah, your book I thought was great. I read it a long time ago. And of course when we brought you to Westchester, it was great because you sat in front of student government, if you remember.
DG (01:17:11):
I do, and quite clearly.
SM (01:17:14):
That was a historic night. You do not realize. That was the very first night that Dr. Oliaro was there. He was the new vice president who had just come in from-
DG (01:17:23):
I remember meeting him.
SM (01:17:24):
Yeah-yeah. Now he is up at Fresno State.
DG (01:17:28):
Oh really?
SM (01:17:28):
Yeah, he is pretty big up there. He is the Vice President of Student Affairs at Fresno State. He was very impressed with you because he-
DG (01:17:37):
Really?
SM (01:17:37):
Yeah. Because he sat in the back. He did not expect it in a student government meeting, and of course I only had one other person ever came in there. But what was the overall reaction of your book and the students that you spoke to?
DG (01:17:54):
The book has not sold terribly well, but it is sold steadily. I suppose I should not complain. It is very long. One of the things about my book is that everyone else who writes a book has to refer to my book because my book has got everything in it. The manner in which I wrote is direct quotes from historical characters that were there at the time. You are pretty much going to have to accept that. There is very little about the facts that you could disagree with. My interpretation for the facts, of course are my own, but it is very hard to argue with an eyewitness account. You might not like what the person says, you might say the person had a myopic view because they were after all right in the middle of it, but you cannot say that it did not happen the way they said. At least the way they said is what they believed. You perhaps have read the book by Bernal Díaz called The Conquest of New Spain, where he has a foot soldier under Cortes. He writes the book about being a foot soldier under Cortes and taking over him Mesoamerica. You have to say, "Well, he was a soldier." I mean, his father was not even literate, but he was there. He was there with Cortes.
SM (01:19:17):
Right.
DG (01:19:17):
Fought, and cannot say, "Well, your interpretation of it is flawed and your attitude towards the Native Americans is certainly unpleasant. You were not a very nice man. You did hard things," but on the other hand, you have to say, "Well, you were there. You are telling me what you believe happened, I really got to pay attention to that." that is what my book did. You might like it, you might not, but you have to accept that I was there.
SM (01:19:51):
Yes. Yeah. I remember reading and I was underlining things. I ruined my books sometimes. I underlined them. I have actually bought another one so it is not underlined, but I have to underline so that I can actually go back to your book. And even though it has been over 10 years since I read it, I can read those lines and I can come back and remember some of the things around it, and that is who I underline. I have done that for years. What do you think the lasting legacy of that free speech movement will be?
DG (01:20:21):
Oh, I do not know.
SM (01:20:23):
Particularly in higher education, which I think really loves to forget their past.
DG (01:20:28):
Well, I think that it is permanently changed the city of Berkeley. I think it has had a tremendous change on the university's population. Basically, people go to Berkeley on purpose. They know it is going to be an exciting place, and they do not go here on purpose too. The people that do not want to go to the University of California are the ones that go to [inaudible] They are the ones that are afraid of the University of California. The ones that go here know that it is going to be a really interesting place with a lot of interesting things going on.
SM (01:21:10):
Good.
DG (01:21:10):
Now, it has been quite a while, [inaudible] so on and so forth. But I would say people come here on purpose. They do not come here by accident. They do not come here because it is safe. They come here because it is going to be exciting, so it is a different kind of school.
SM (01:21:31):
Now. That is the kind of school that I like. Well, I guess that is it, David. This has been great. Now the one thing I do not have is a picture of you and I am coming out in the-
DG (01:21:40):
Okay. Yeah. Hey, could you send me a transcript of it?
SM (01:21:44):
Yes. I am doing this to everybody. I have got so many transcripts to be done, but once the transcript is there, we can edit and so forth. But I am going to need to get a picture of you. I remember Chrissy Keeler, I think her name is. She is from San Francisco. I am interviewing her next week. I may be out in the spring with my camera to drive around, take pictures of people that I have interviewed so I may pop over to your place, but otherwise I will need a picture eventually. Not right now, of you.
DG (01:22:17):
I can mail you one.
SM (01:22:19):
But I think I will be out in San Francisco in April, I think, and I might just drive over and say hi to you and take your picture.
DG (01:22:25):
All right.
SM (01:22:26):
You have a great day. Keep doing that great artwork.
DG (01:22:29):
I am working on it.
SM (01:22:31):
Yep.
DG (01:22:31):
Right. Thanks. Have a great day. Bye.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with David Lance Goines
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Goines, David Lance, 1945- 2023 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><span><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.</span>
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-19
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In copyright
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eng
Type
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.104
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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82:41
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
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Date of Interview
2010-05-13
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Stephen Gaskin
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Stephen Gaskin (1935 - 2014) was an American counterculture Hippie Icon. He was an author of over a dozen books and a political activist. He went to prison in 1974 for marijuana possession and his voting rights were rescinded. Gaskin was a recipient for the first Right Livelihood Award in 1980 and an inductee in the Counterculture Hall of Fame in 2004."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Stephen Gaskin (1935 - 2014) was an American Hippie counterculture icon. He was an author of over a dozen books and a political activist. He went to prison in 1974 for marijuana possession and his voting rights were rescinded. Gaskin was a recipient for the first Right Livelihood Award in 1980 and an inductee in the Counterculture Hall of Fame in 2004.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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138:44
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Sexual Relations; Free Speech Movement; Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Sex; Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Vietnam Memorial; Healing;Free Speech Movement; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Government Corruption; Woodstock; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weatherman; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Panthers."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"arial,sans,sans-serif"}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Sexual Relations; Free Speech Movement; Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Sex; Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Vietnam Memorial; Healing;Free Speech Movement; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Government Corruption; Woodstock; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weatherman; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Panthers."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"arial,sans,sans-serif"}">Sexual Relations; Free Speech Movement; Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Sex; Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Vietnam Memorial; Healing; Free Speech Movement; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Government Corruption; Woodstock; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weatherman; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Panthers; </span></span><span>Samuel Ichiye Hayakawa; </span>Sixties; The Farm; Stephen Gaskin; Ina May Gaskin; Tennessee; United Nations NGO; Community; Activism; H. Rap Brown; Ralph Featherstone; Mo Udall; Black Panthers; Oren Lyons; Jerry Garcia; Grateful Dead; Tim Leary; Pig Pen; St. Stephen; Bobby Seale; Stokely Carmichael; Russell Means; Beatnik; San Francisco State; Midwife.
Subject LCSH
Authors; Political activists--United States; Hippies; Gaskin, Stephen--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Stephen Gaskin
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: 13 May 2010
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(Start of Interview)
0:15
SM: First question I want to ask is, before I even talk about your life and your experiences when the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and what do you think and when did it end?
0:31
SG: Well, the beginning of the (19)60s for me, was a little late because I was finishing up my master's degree, in the real early sixties. And I got my master's, I think in (19)63, I taught (19)64 to (19)65. And the (19)60s began in (19)66 for me. And that was when I realized they were not going to fire me, but I had become too weird to rehire.
1:00
SM: Hmm. And that was when you were in San Francisco State?
1:04
SG: Right, I taught Shree years as San Francisco state, I got my bachelor's there, and my master's.
1:09
SM: Well, obviously, you went off in 1970 form the commune, but-
1:16
SG: We went off in 1970 because [inaudible] tour, we had no idea we were going to make the community. We always say "community", down south people who live in communes are called communists.
1:30
SM: Wow. When did the (19)60s end in your opinion?
1:35
SG: Well, see, people talk about, you know that the (19)70s was such a mess and came apart and stuff but for the (19)70s was the ten years we spent really working smart and loving each other for the work that we did. The (19)70s was make the farm happen so the (19)70 is fine for me. I am not I am not calling things off. I have not forgotten anything. And I am not going to I am not going to [inaudible]-
2:07
SM: When was there a watershed moment for it? Not only for you, but for a lot of members of the boomer generation. Was there a watershed moment when you knew this was a special time?
2:22
SG: Well, my students had to come and tell me when I was teaching at the San Francisco State, and they said, you were fun, and you were smart, you were funny, but you do not know what is happening. I said, oh! And so, they start telling me about it. You got to do a few things for us before we can continue the conversation. Okay, what do I have to do? They said, we will see the Beatles movie, go see the Grateful Dead.
2:48
SM: Oh wow.
2:52
SG: San Francisco State was trying to be kind of new. And they had what they call a mixed media event, which was three teachers reading three different poems and a couple of slides of vectors. I understood the concept but I did not do much. And when we went to see the Grateful Dead, we came in the door to the auditorium and there was a guy in the zebra suit, jumping on a trampoline underneath a strobe light. And you could not even tell what he was.
3:23
SM: Well, that that was a pretty watershed moment!
3:30
SG: And I just suddenly, well I realized that these are my people. And the thing is, I am thirteen years too old to be a boomer.
3:41
SM: Right?
3:42
SG: I am a beatnik. And like they say in the military, you can change from one branch to the other, time and grade, rank and like that. I was able to transfer from the Beatniks to the hippes like that.
3:55
SM: Well, Steven, you know, one thing I have noticed in my interview process is that so many people born in the ten years prior to the boomer period that they, they were kind of boomers, because they have this mentality of like the boomers.
4:11
SG: They kind of built them.
4:12
SM: And yeah, Richie Havens, when I interviewed him was born in 1940. Yeah, and Ritchie says, I am a boomer. I am a boomer. And it is- because it is an attitude. It is a way of thinking,
4:22
SG: I am born in (19)35.
4:26
SM: What you mentioned about your, I get a lot of questions here, but this these Monday night classes that we that you taught when you were at San Francisco State, it says in some of the literature you got up to 1500 students at one time in your class. What were what were some of these experiences over those two years when you taught these classes?
4:50
SG: Well, sometimes we would be in a scholarly way and everybody would be, like one guy came in on the Monday night class one night waving his book. Hey, look at this book, this 'ole monk in the thirteenth century had the same trip, I had last Saturday night!
5:02
SM: [laughs] Oh my gosh.
5:07
SG: We were quite scholarly we were reading a lot, reading all the religions and more we did that. We did not come to San Francisco to convert to religions. We were ransacking religions looking for goodies.
5:20
SM: So subject matter? These students were getting credit for this course correct?
5:25
SG: When it started off, but I had to leave the campus at a time. They got to where they did not peel the political posters off the glass anymore and the revolution taken over San Francisco State.
5:38
SM: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Because you were the president there. I guess he was one of your teachers at one time? Ichiye Hayakawa?
5:46
SG: Hayakawa? I was Hayakawa's student assistant. Hayakawa was one of the media-wise foremost semanticists, general semanticist in the country at that time, although there were about four or five guys smarter than him that did not have the good fortune for his PhD thesis to become a book cult collection.
6:08
SM: Well, he was president during that time when all the student rebellion was happening at the school.
6:13
SG: At the time had split to Ethiopia to get away. They had offered the presidency to all of the faculty and they all turned it down, they say, we are not going to scab and they offered it to Hayakawa and even though he was not full time and even though he did not teach but two courses they made him president anyway.
6:33
SM: What year was that?
6:35
SG: Well golly that would have to be (19)65 or (19)66 something in around there.
6:39
SM: Wow.
6:42
SG: And he came out he came outside wearing a tam o'shanter hat, a very colorful hat thinking he was going to come on like he was a hippie and the hippies snubbed him.
6:54
SM: Oh, wow.
6:57
SG: You know, this is very short time, when in the Free Speech Movement, Mario Savio and those guys pulled up they thought that Hayakawa would like them and he did not. I answered the phone. I told him who it was and he did not like them at all. I am going I am sorry. He does not like you. I do. But he does not.
7:16
SM: My gosh. Yeah, that was (19)64 or (19)65 and that was about the time he became president then.
7:21
SG: Yeah, because he took he took the job when nobody else would do it.
7:25
SM: Wow. Was there any connection with what was going on, on the San Francisco State campus? And what was going on over there at Berkeley?
7:32
SG: Well, we were a little bit different in the sense that they were more the political guys and we was more of the acid guys. But there was not a hard line. It was some of all the same. And I did a class at night that it happened to be in Hayakawa's office with a free speech movement. I was teaching a class that night, one of my an- Francisco State College classes, called a Monday Night Class and so I said, well, we were in solidarity with the guys in Berkeley, according to my understanding that I can say fuck anytime I want, as long as I have the right layers of parentheses and quotation marks around it. And I took a new piece of chalk was three inches long, and used it on its side, take the line about four inches wide. And I wrote FUCK and letters three feet on the blackboard in the front of the room and I went back to the old German origins, you know, and like that, and we thought about it for a while. And I must have said it a couple of hundred times during my class. They were right with me. We were exhibiting solidarity with Berkeley.
8:43
SM: Wow. Those are those were unbelievable times back then. You know, I have interviewed several people [inaudible] in the student protest movement. San Francisco State there was a famous picture of him with African American students look like they were really it was a front of a book cover. I do not know if you remember when the African American students really went after him?
9:08
SG: I do not remember.
9:08
SM: Yeah. So, there was a lot of rebellion. When you think of those years, not only as a student but as a teacher. What was it like being a student what was college life like in the (19)50s or the early (19)60s before this period started?
9:26
SG: Well, that was what I was most likely being more like a beatnik when I was still in school taking class. And I made good grades when I wanted to pay attention. I did not always do it but I did not always pay attention but I graduated cum laude which I used to think was a big deal. And the lady I am married to now was also cum laude. And what I found out was there was a thing that happened to be where I got tired of the papers they were giving. They were so stilted. It was like they were being written for their maiden aunt. I am going to have a heart attack, if they said anything heavy. Something like that. And I complained to them. This is crap you are writing and you are being so careful, you are not saying anything of who you really are and what is really happening. I want to make that assignment for you where I am not going to grade spelling or grammar or anything like that I am more grade [inaudible] and so they sent in a paper like that. And it was a heavy trip man, they like one girl wrote a paper about how her brothers trying to make or give away your half black baby.
10:38
SM: Huh?
10:39
SG: So, the real hard stuff started coming out. And I was knocked out by the, by the content and what I went through a change right there on account of that paper, which was I realized that I loved the students deeply. And I considered the institution to be in the way and not helping out the relationship.
11:02
SM: You said that you were a beatnik. The obviously the beats were very important influence in the (19)50s because they were against the status quo, you know, the Kerouacs, the Burroughs and Ginsburgs.
11:15
SG: The way I got introduced to the beatniks - a friend of mine came to me and says they are having a [inaudible] in the East Coast, where they were having coffee houses, they are drinking coffee, and it goes back in time or Shakespeare when coffee was the dope and folks were uptight about when you talked to much when you did it. There was one down in Laguna Beach, I was in San Bernadino, he says there is one down at Laguna Beach. He goes, do you want it? And we stole the cafe Franken sign, and the plaster cast of the Frankenstein tombstone with a centerpiece and the waitress was in love with the coffee cook and she was spilling over everybody and it was just stoned and sweet and I thought, I think these are my people.
12:12
SM: Did you did you have experiences meeting Ferlinghetti and Gary Snyder and the people out there?
12:18
SG: I met Gary Snyder and was my first Monday night class came out it filled up the bookstore, Ferlinghetti's bookstore, the entire window was my book, and the entire glass of the window was the picture of my paper.
12:36
SM: Wow.
12:37
SG: Because everybody - I had been doing the class for several years by then everybody knew was going to come out. No advertising. It got that way by word of mouth. And it just filled up a printing and we have got another printing and sold out a printing and we had another printing like that. And talking to Ferlinghetti about being in his bookstore and I had been. Some of the guys I liked, what is the name of that English guy?
13:08
SM: Neal Cassady or?
13:10
SG: No, I met Neal over in Amsterdam one time more recently. And Neal [inaudible] I knew Big Brother and the Holding Company, when they were an acoustic jug band with no amplifier.
13:32
SM: Now when did they start? That band?
13:36
SG: Well, they what happened to them, as you may recollect, is they were kidnapped by Janis Joplin. [laughs] And that was what happened to them. And so, I knew the guys in the bands and you know, the guy from a Big Brother and the Holding Company came up to me and reminding me of who he was, I said "hey I tell people I know you."
14:05
SM: Wow. So, you when you are talking about the counterculture in the Bay Area, in the (19)60s and the (19)50s, late (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, you think primarily in terms of the music and the way people lived their lives? The lifestyle?
14:27
SG: Well, it was it was modern amplification of the music and rock and roll was happening pretty heavy in Europe and then the first rock and roll I ever heard about was referred to as Rock and Roll Riot Detection and by the time I got into San Francisco the Dead you know, Garcia still had black hair.
14:54
SM: Um hmm.
14:55
SG: And the oh, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Cipolina I think one of the crazy real lead guitarists of our time.
15:11
SM: Who was that?
15:12
SG: Cipolina.
15:13
SM: Oh.
15:14
SG: From um, it is tough to remember that name. I had been an English major and then my mother wanted me to be a lawyer and then I ended up being an English major. And I realized I was a creative writing major. And so, I came out as a creative writing major. The thing about a creative writing major is that you get to make up your thesis.
15:43
SM: Hmm.
15:45
SG: It is a group of short stories.
15:46
SM: Right.
15:46
SG: No research, you get to make up your thesis!
15:50
SM: Huh.
15:53
SG: I did that and then on the other side, I was doing general semantics and linguistic study at least the analytical side of the language and the structure of the language. Nothing wrong with the study of a little semantics.
16:09
SM: We you say that when you are around some of these people in two different experiences one in that classroom and another at that club and you say in both instances, I found that people I am most comfortable with. I belong here. Did you feel up to that point, even in your growing up years, with your parents, the years leading up to go into college, even including your military career that you really had not found yourself?
16:39
SG: Yeah, I would say that. I was just doing, you know, after I got in the military, I was supposed to go to school and GI bill, which I did. And I am one of the last people who got out before Reagan screwed the California School System. When I went to San Francisco State to $79 a semester.
17:01
SM: Oh my gosh.
17:02
SG: Not a unit. A semester.
17:04
SM: And what years were those?
17:06
SG: Well, I guess (19)60 - (19)61 something like that I would say. I got it. I took an AA in San Bernadino. And if I uh, well the thing about having that AA is if I had an L I could spell Alabama.
17:36
SM: Yeah you were in the military from (19)52 to (19)55? Right. Now, did you learn anything about war? You were in action over in Korea. You had something, you must have had some feelings coming back from a war?
17:54
SG: Yeah, well, I could not get with the student revolution guys who wanted to send thousands of people up against the administration building and that kind of stuff. I thought that we were supposed to be so media hip and so attractive and neat that we took over that way.
18:17
SM: What was? You were around in during the period many people say is the Summer of Love. Haight Ashbury, that was (19)67. We see all these pictures of Golden Gate Park. It was quiet. He just what was the year 1967 like in San Francisco?
18:38
SG: So, I think that was when we had the we had the first human be- in.
18:47
SM: Please speak up too, thanks.
18:50
SG: So that was just after Woodstock. And we set up in the polo field in Golden Golden Gate Park. And thousands and thousands and thousands of people came.
19:05
SM: Wow.
19:06
SG: I was up on the hill watching it. The meeting was so profound and so powerful, I had to stop and sit down once in a while always walking up to it. A woman there and a mounted policeman: she came up and says, my son is down there! I want to get my son! Help me get my son! Ma'am, all of those people are smoking pot. I cannot go down there.
19:37
SM: Wow.
19:38
SG: And that was also when something happened at later karma which was somebody broke the lines to the stage! The power lines. So, the Hells Angels went out and walked the wires and found them and had a Hells Angel standing on each place the wire was plugged together and protected the jam that way.
19:57
SM: Hmm.
19:57
SG: That is why Garcia had the idea evident for security at Altamont.
20:03
SM: All right, well, that was a disaster.
20:06
SG: Yeah, yeah. Awful.
20:08
SM: Were you at Altamont?
20:10
SG: No, I was with Grateful.
20:12
SM: Wow, because that was the-
20:15
SG: That was one of the low points.
20:17
SM: Some people say that was when everything kind of turned around. But what was it like? The young people, when you look at the boomer generation, you have not only seen them in the classroom, seen them in the communes, seen them in the clubs just experienced them in many different ways, what are their strengths and what are some of their weaknesses in your opinion? Based on the people you knew?
20:46
SG: Well, the strengths and their weaknesses are pretty much the same thing. That was how much they trusted, and how much they were open and how much they were willing to experiment how much they were willing to take along. That stuff is great growth drives, and also can be dangerous. And I loved them and I love hippies still. And in fact, I claim it still. I claim mass affiliation really and say, oh yeah, I am a hippie. And I love the hippies very much and I loved going to rock and roll and I have never had any music that was my own until honor to rock and roll. When I grew up the big hassle was Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. And I thought Sinatra was a better singer but he was such a dick always slapping valet parking people and stuff like that. And Crosby was a nice family man, and not really very interesting or anything and that was what music was when I was a kid. And when suddenly it was rock and roll, man, oh my goodness! People were doing things with guitars that before Rock and Roll would have been considered a catastrophic equipment breakdown. [laughs] You know, when complete and total feedback takes over a whole amp.
22:17
SM: When, when you when you heard young people say, then and many even who are older today say that we were the most unique generation in American history because we were going to end the war, bring peace to the world, end racism, sexism, homophobia, you know, all those other things would not come to fruition all those things and a lot of progress. But what do you what do you say when you hear that this generation feels at times that they were the most unique in our history?
22:53
SG: Well, I think that they are never, there was never anything like that before you because you have never had the social amplifiers that we had. Loud, and using heavy dope. You know, we were we were amplified and, and it was not that we were hiding what we were doing, we were proud of it, we would be dressed different from other folks so that those with like minds, would recognize us. And I still wear my hair long, although it is a little ponytail like a rat tail and smooth on top. I am not going to cut it. They were very afraid. And when I left on the caravan, I left with twenty-five school buses, by the time I got to the farm I had fifty school busses and four hundred and some people who were committed to give it a go. To try to make something happen. And that was one of the things that used to happen is guys would come up to me it was very successful summer dealing. You ever decide you got to go to the land somewhere, let me know, I will help you buy it. Guys like that would come up to me. And I had no personal wealth. I was on the salary, the salary for a teacher. A first-year teacher is not much. And I love those people. And they came here with me. And we have changed since we came here in a bunch of ways because we were wild, wild and crazy both ways as you know. Some folks could not stand us or understand us but then - oh, I would have been with you guys already if I knew that was who you were.
24:56
SM: Here what happened between when the Summer of Love ended (19)67 because we hear stories about (19)68 was a pretty rough year in San Francisco because the many drugs many more drug people came into the Haight Ashbury area and people left like a, like bees.
25:17
SG: What happened when we were on a caravan, which was 1970, we were gone for seven months on the road. And we got back to San Francisco. It has been taken over by crack and cocaine and heroin and alcohol. We did not use to drink as a culture. Hippies did not used to drink the first time Janis Joplin showed up and put a bottle of Southern Comfort down on top of the piano, people were scandalized.
25:46
SM: Oh, wow.
25:47
SG: Yeah. That we were very innocent in our ways. And when we came back off the caravan, we saw that the scene had gone decadent. And we did not know where we were going to get land. But we thought we, we got a good thing going here. We had a very successful tour. Obviously, I was handed over at the state lines from the cop of one state to the next state, hey, they are okay, do not worry about them do not worry about them. When one thing is kind of fun was when we left the first day we left we got busted at the Oregon/California border and the cops had busted us but they had FBI and state police and troopers and a sheriff and whatnot. And they did not know what to do about us at all. But they came out and took my bus and the guy said, I have orders to arrest of the registered owner this bus, well, it was not my bus. This other guy who said What? Gee! What did I do? So, the guy takes out the papers and says I have orders to arrest Stephen Gaskin. But he arrested me and they took me in. I have to admit. The cops did look a little odd. They were counting the change in this great big [inaudible] full of change and small bills that they had bailed me out with. Hey hold on for a second. I got something on the other line I got to take.
27:18
SM: Okay. You were telling the story about the cop and the busses.
27:32
SG: So, they went into court and they want to know who we were. We are the people who are for peace and who are peaceful about being for peace. This is right in the middle of blowing up the Sterling building-
27:52
SM: In Wisconsin, and then the Weatherman.
27:53
SG: And so, we talked to the judge, and the judge says okay. I will tell you what I am going to do, I am going to let you go into speaking tour. At the end of your tour, you got to come back to this courtroom. And I will know where you were. So, I said, okay, and we took off like that. And we went to a lot of changes. We got back off the road and we came back in there. We went into that that office. And he must have got a clipping service or something because all of the walls of the office were covered with pieces of paper for every parcel and point [inaudible]. They had tracked us all the way.
28:34
SM: Unbelievable.
28:35
SG: And the judge, we went back into the courtroom and the judge said, he said, your presence in the courtroom is an embarrassment and you were free to go.
28:51
SM: Hmm.
28:54
SG: When I wrote the Caravan book, the first chapter is half that story in the last chapter is the other half of that story.
29:05
SM: Oh, wow. I got to get that book. Is that book still in print?
29:08
SG: Yeah.
29:09
SM: Oh, I got to order that book. I have a list of all your books here and they are all fascinating.
29:18
SG: I have got it myself and then you hit me up on my website.
29:22
SM: Yeah, because you got forty Miles of a Bad Road.
29:25
SG: That is my master's thesis.
29:28
SM: Yeah. And then you have Monday Night Class, which is one I love.
29:32
SG: Yeah.
29:33
SM: Then you got The Caravan from (19)72 and the one about Haight Ashbury Flashbacks. And An Outlaw in my Heart, a Political-
29:43
SG: Oh, By Heart was the one I put together when I was running against the Ralph Nader for the Green nomination.
29:50
SM: Wow.
29:52
SG: Best thing about that was I got to be friends with Ralph.
29:55
SM: Yeah, I saw Ralph last year when he was talking about his first now when he went around the country. Tell me a little bit about The Caravan. Obviously, you- where did you meet the people that went on the original in the original buses, or cars?
30:13
SG: They were the Monday night class.
30:15
SM: They were all students.
30:17
SG: They were all Monday night classes.
30:20
SM: Then they were off in the Bay Area, most of them?
30:24
SG: Hold on again a minute.
30:38
SM: So, they were mostly, they were students from your Monday night class?
30:41
SG: Yeah. And they were just, we had people there who had PhDs, people that are who were dropped out freshmen
30:48
SM: Oh my gosh!
30:49
SG: They came to the farm and when we get the farm up to a pretty big population and stuff at one time, the farm had more college degrees than the Tennessee State legislature did.
31:00
SM: Oh my gosh, the original when you finally got there. What was your number at the very beginning?
31:11
SG: When we went back, actually, just to land some people dropped off at that point. We came in with about 280 people.
31:19
SM: Wow.
31:20
SG: And we were we were in Nashville, trying to look for land. And we thought, well, as big as we are, we should have a band. A big creature like this needs a voice we should have a band. Philip says, oh, I got to go trade this guitar in. I cannot do rock and roll with a twelve string, I got to get a real rock and roll guitar. He went to get a rock and roll guitar and the lady at the music store says, nobody has lived on my mother's old home place down in Lewis county for about thirty-five years. You guys can go down there and park. They gave us place to land. I found out that they were kind of wealthy liberals.
32:03
SM: Uh huh.
32:04
SG: And the while we were there looking for a tractor, somebody went out came back to the port subtractor with a wide front wheels and low back wheels. And one guy who had ridden with the Hells Angels said, that was not a tractor. And he went out for a tractor and he found this big old John Deere with wheels about, about seven-foot-high and the guy who sold him the tractor said, you guys should buy my place, its 1000 acres and the road does not go through. We went to the bank down in [inaudible] and asked for a loan. And we got to the bank and they said, well it is not just because you are an out of town hippie, it is also because no one has ever asked for a loan as big as that from this bank before. We went back and told Carlos that. And he said, I trust you guys, I will carry it. And that was that was a very important thing because we did not know it but the FBI had every county clerk in the state primed up to let them know have you tried to buy land in their county because they were going to get us.
33:13
SM: [laughs] Oh jeez!
33:14
SG: And because the guy carried the note himself, we were a stranger [inaudible] before they ever heard about us.
33:20
SM: Oh my gosh.
33:26
SG: Some of what I did was I general. You had to have a to have a general because we were facing an organized thing.
33:40
SM: So, they have been being alerted people all over the area that do not lend money to your group.
33:47
SG: Who they had alerted were the county clerks if we came to do a title search or anything.
33:57
SM: They just did not want your type, around did they?
34:00
SG: Well now, we have all become very effusive. They love us.
34:04
SM: Now, what was the, the actual land that you bought finally?
34:09
SG: Well, first, we bought Carlos's 1000 acres. And it is where the highlands where the Nashville basin is, the rim and this land is off of that rim coming down to the lower land it has got a few pretty flat fields not a lot of hills and we are a deciduous oak forest. And anyway, it turned out that the only interest of the place was through about seven or eight other people's driveways. And we bought the land next door, which had an opening on the blacktop. We did that that that the first piece of land was $70 per acre $70,000 for 70 acres. The next piece of land was $100 an acre. 700 acres, same price but we only got 700 but then we had 1700 acres. And then later on, we have had things happen like Japanese land buying companies come in and buy land on our border and clear cut it and stuff like that. By this time, we were big enough that we just chartered a nonprofit corporation and we started buying everything still had trees on it. But now we are up to having six and a quarter square mile, or 6000 acres. I was talking to a guy in Europe about an acre and a hectare. And we finally decided that we had, we had 1000 hectares. And this guy who happened to be the director of the [inaudible] said, you should secede from the union.
35:59
SM: [laughs] Wow. Of the originals that came back in 1970 are there very many still there?
36:13
SG: Not a lot. But, but we were like with other places you were back to be close to their folks or whatnot, you know, we were a very large and well communicated entity and we talked to each other all over the place. Got people. At one time we had twenty-five other farms.
36:32
SM: Wow.
36:33
SG: We had one in Ireland and we had one in India. Like that.
36:39
SM: Wow. How many people live there now?
36:45
SG: I do not think we are up to 300 right now but it was 1500 people and it was also five hippies hitchhiking on every freeway ramp.
36:56
SM: For a while. Cannot hitchhike anymore, though, can you?
37:01
SG: Not much!
37:04
SM: Now, obviously, people think that hippies were very popular in the (19)60s and (19)70s but that there are not very many left. Hippies. You do not hear about them much anymore, except for places like The Farm and that have lived the life. But your thoughts on that? How many? Are there still hippies out there that are young?
37:32
SG: Well, they do not call themselves hippies but they but they are heavy into communication, and rock and roll and they are on the internet and they are a generation that talks to itself more freely than anybody ever has. And they do not call themselves hippies anymore but you hear it used every now and then. And whenever anybody asks me I always say a hippie of course.
38:03
SM: Do you have you have people that actually read about the farm and say, can I come and live there?
38:08
SG: Oh, yeah. We have, when we were big, we had 256-man hours a week in gate.
38:17
SM: Oh my gosh.
38:19
SG: We had we had 150,000 visitors in our first 10 years.
38:26
SM: And what was the process? See it see a person? Well say in 1972 you had been there two years, what was the process for someone to become a part of The Farm?
38:38
SG: We used to call it soaking. We would make you come and live here for a while and work. And we would advise that do not get involved romantically when you are first coming here. But as you get where you cannot tell the difference between falling in love with somebody and falling in love with the farm. And, and after you soak for a while for sure you want to do it, then we check you out and see if we want you. But the beginning you could be a full partner on a handshake and a smile.
39:09
SM: And you said that they were PhDs, master's degrees, bachelor's degrees, dropouts.
39:17
SG: Our giant book was backed up by a PhD in organic chemistry.
39:25
SM: Why do you think I know you your experience but why do you think so many people that were in that class or heard about that class said I am tired of this world. I want to get away from it. I want to go back to nature.
39:40
SG: Well, I ended up right on the spot where stuff was happening. I would usually you go check out a scene you go to hear about the scene and its already going decadent. But this one happened right around me. I saw it when it first grew and I love it and hippies love me, you know, because I never sold out. I am 75 years old now.
40:14
SM: Yeah, I was reading in the some of the things in the web, the wall street journal called The Farm the General Motors of American communes.
40:23
SG: [laughs]
40:25
SM: What did they mean by that?
40:28
SG: Well, that we had like a motor pool, and we had a school up through high school. And we had medical facilities. Our midwives are world famous, that is what my wife's doing right now she is off talking about midwifery in Europe. And she, lectures to doctors, doctors come to her lectures. And we were good at what we did. And nobody, nobody around our neighborhood, thinks hippies are dumb. In fact, this is just like, how stuff would happen. We were anti-nukers, of course. And at some point, we said, we were anti-nukers, we ought to be able to tell us something is hot. We ought to have a Geiger counter. So, we got a Geiger counter. And that year's Geiger counter was a pig, it weighed maybe 15 pounds had a big signal letter and battery in it is just a pig, it was before digital measurization, pretty much although our guys are into them somewhat. But we had we had that thing and it did not have a dial on it, it just had a light and it (noises) and people would write down a number or anything and at the same time, one of our people who is on the farm to have a baby the little farm issue, she was having twins. So, the midwives got the Doppler effect, fetal heart monitor, for sensitivity to separate the twin’s heartbeat and the guy on the crew who was working on the cluster, checked out that and he went back and he says, look, that little heart monitor our posture has a delay in averaging circuit eventually if we hook that delaying and averaging circuit up to the Geiger we could time it. It would have a dial and we would have a needle. So, we figured that out and put it together. And our Geiger counter was about the size of a pack 100-millimeter cigarette. And when 911 hit we had to hire more people to that company. And right now, in Lewis County our Geiger counter company is the only one of our companies that is big enough and strong enough to have health care for its employees.
43:06
SM: It is a fantastic story.
43:09
SG: And right now, the Geiger counter company is listed as the only high-tech business in Lewis County. That is one thing about the neighbors not thinking that hippies are dumb.
43:21
SM: Well, you got some pretty good people there and you are at the farm. Boy, some really good and, you know, reading your background, I was very impressed with your background and your wife's background, but to see the information you are given me about some of your fellow people, they are in The Farm over the years, it is pretty impressive, but I am going to change my tape. Okay. I am back. One of the interesting things about communes is that when the in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a lot of people say the (19)60s ended in around 1973. So, you got to glue those first few years as part of the (19)60s in the (19)70s. But that was when so many people went back to communes and or they-
44:12
SG: Fake unity.
44:14
SM: Yeah. Or they went into a more spiritual feeling. So, they were not going to church as much. And what I have read here, and I like your comments on the critics of communes as a whole, maybe not The Farm, but communes overall, is that this it is about people who dropped out. People who went back to nature, lived off the land became much more spiritual, and they did not have to go to church or synagogues, but they became more inner, inner spiritual. I would like you to your comments on the critics of the communes and define what a commune is.
44:58
SG: First place like I keep saying. We are a commune and total commune is a- the political term and so we say we are an intentional community living together on purpose, because they want to. And the idea is that people have been trying to do that kind of stuff in this country for a long time, the Shakers and those kinds of people like that. And we are not like we used to be in the sense of like, totally collecting did not have to have any money in your pocket and these glasses, you would have a bank lady and like that. And now, we went through changes in 1983 like the world did and people have their own bank accounts and stuff now. And we have come to find out that in Israel, that is a metamorphosis that happens that it is well documented there and it when a kibbutz turns into a musha'a and it this really collective bit like a collective child raising very like. And the musha'a is, people got their own checkbook and their own job and their own money, but they are still collecting. So, we kind of like went like that thing in Israel, using the technicality of that language, I think we are more of a musha'a now but we like to do big projects together and so we still do big projects. Our Plenty organization that we put together. The first thing we did was help the people whose houses had been destroyed by tornados and stuff then we ended up doing a rather large, that diet health program in Guatemala, where we got into a deal with Faith International and pipelined millions of [inaudible] money into Guatemala and organized. We like big projects, but then we were very clear, that Plenty thing belongs to everybody on The Farm. We did not want to have an acronym, we call it Plenty, because there is actually enough if it was fairly strict. So, we explained what Plenty means and that is pretty revolutionary.
47:31
SM: So why, why did The Farm succeed when most of the other communes did not? There may be three or four major communes in the country, and the rest of them are gone?
47:44
SG: Well, I do not know exactly. The first 13 years, I was really deeply involved in everything. And I have not been since about (19)83. I have lived here, I have worked from here but I do not run it. And it was like it went from running Monday Night Class to running The Caravan and now, it would be superfluous for me to try to run things. But you have gone off and been doing things for years and it is really nice to have competent friends. In fact, somebody came to The Farm and do the story and they said they seem to have a religion of competence.
48:38
SM: For example, within The Farm itself, do you each have your own, like homes? And then you have you eat your meals separately? Or do you eat out common area?
48:49
SG: No, we had we, we have community dinners every now and then and also, we will have a community dinner for a cause like the school needs somebody or something who have a community dinner and charge for it. And we do a lot of music and one of the most successful things we have done is our musicians have passed down lots and lots to our kids.
49:17
SM: See, so if you go out on a lecture circuit or your wife for the band goes out and performs or somebody who has a skill goes out in the community and gets paid for it, does that money all come back to the to one big lump?
49:35
SG: No.
49:37
SM: So, you have your own private counts now?
49:40
SG: Oh, sure. Okay. The government you know wants you to have social security numbers and things.
49:49
SM: Right.
49:52
SG: We got to obey the law of the land everywhere we can and I probably am not going to do any more books based on pot. We have got a very good one out now and I do not need any more. I have one called Cannabis Spirituality.
50:16
SM: Well if pot was a very important part was very important part of The Farm.
50:21
SG: It is part of the whole hippie movement. Anything remarkable about our pot stuff is how well we kept away from crack, and cocaine and heroin. We were hash and acid and peyote.
50:42
SM: How do you deal with that it is illegal in most areas? Still.
50:48
SG: What I do in my own personal areas is be cool. And that is what other people have to do to.
50:53
SM: A one a couple other things here. I am looking at that. One of the when there was the period when and you know this and I know it is not true, but when Charles Manson happened, they thought that that was the kind of a cult and that he was part of a small community and then he had the Symbionese Liberation Army that ended up taking Patty Hearst, and they were supposedly some sort of a commune.
51:26
SG: A commune.
51:28
SM: Yeah, commune I guess. They were small groups, but did some bad things.
51:34
SG: Well the thing about Charlie Manson is, he is not by throwing him in the, the prison system of the United States had him when he was a young man and had him for 20 years before there was ever such a thing as the Haight and he was being educated in the penitentiary system and he is not ours. He was a hitchhiker on us, but we did not make him. And what was the other thing?
52:04
SM: The Symbionese Liberation Army.
52:06
SG: Well, Symbionese Liberation Army, they liked this fancy made up names but they were more of a publicity stunt. They were not going to take anything that was not a revolution or do anything like that would not make any permanent changes or anything. That is not who we are. We vote in our elections here. And when we were big, governors and senators came to our door to talk to us about it. I am a friend of Al Gore's.
52:44
SM: Oh, very good.
52:46
SG: He was by Congressman. And I think the supreme court stole that election completely
52:56
SM: I agree. Life would have been a little different. I think we still might have been attacked though at 911 but still.
53:08
SG: Well the thing about the thing about that stuff is we got to make peace with the Islamic world we cannot cut them off in little pieces and say this is a bad piece and we are going to blow it up and we act like that about a fifth of the world every time we blow up some a little village with a drone.
53:36
SM: A couple of other things regarding just the way the media in the culture of television and movies have portrayed communes. Is Easy Rider? Those scenes when Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper I think Jack Nicholson is in there too, but when they come into this one commune there is that scene and they are kind of talking to them, oh, this would be great because they were referring to all the top potential sex partners they could have within the within the commune that that was very well portrayed in that movie. And then another thing about in (19)98.
54:21
SG: They are rich movie actors.
54:25
SM: So that was really just Hollywood doing a Hollywood thing?
54:29
SG: Complete Hollywood bullshit.
54:31
SM: Yeah, because there was a you may have it. I have a major collection of magazines. There was a Life magazine on the cover with the commune. Do you remember it in the late (19)60s, where it showed a family and a commune and at the top of it says communes and it is very good article that talks about, you know, they, they were not having they had a white they did not have six wives? But there is, there is still that feeling out there that maybe men and women are having more partners than they should.
55:03
SG: They were in the (19)60s but that has consequences, children and stuff. And people want to have the best deal they can for their children and they did not want it to be a haphazard mess because they had to sort it out for the kids.
55:19
SM: Right?
55:22
SG: I do not mind challenging the mores of society I have never been afraid to but I am also not afraid to agree with them when they are useful and necessary for the safety and sanity of everybody else.
55:37
SM: How do you deal with that? I have asked this question, everybody. It is a general question. We have the in 1994, or Newt Gingrich came to power. He kind of he and he still does make commentary about the (19)60s and (19)70s that basically the problems we have in our society today are the problems of the breakdown of the American family, the drug culture, the you know, only one parent at home, lack of respect for authority and basically, culture going astray. And of course, George Will, when he gets chances he'll make commentaries. And Mike Huckabee even does it on his television show. And I remember when John McCain was running for president, he made commentary about Mrs. Clinton, that she was kind of like a hippie. Just general comments degrading the period and the time. How do you respond to those kinds of people when they make general statements?
56:41
SG: Well, there is a pretty good school of thought that being a hippie is an ethnicity.
56:50
SM: Mm hmm.
56:51
SG: And that people do it like they, they get racist about it. And that is the thing. I could cut my hair and get a necktie and if I kept my mouth shut, nobody would ever know.
57:05
SM: Right.
57:06
SG: But I will not and everybody knows I will not and you know, proud of my hippie forebearers and what we have done about it is we are not treated that way. We are not treated that way locally. The neighbors come here. We used to we had to ask the neighbors how to sharpen a chainsaw when we got here. And we had people come to be our electricians, our, our tech company is very strong and we are friends with our neighbors, we had a series of debates with the preachers. We had six or seven Church of Christ preachers come every Wednesday for weeks and then they had one up in Nashville in a big hall with about five or six preachers on stage and me. And the one old guy who said that he was the cult expert in Tennessee said that there are 309 nine cults in Tennessee but that The Farm was not one of them. And then had this you know, discussion in front of all these people and it got to the point where the preachers finally said, I cannot make them out to be Christians no matter how hard I try. But I really wish mine lived as well as they do.
58:38
SM: If someone was to ask you, why was The Farm started and then please define the purpose of The Farm. What would your answer be?
58:53
SG: Well, there was a giant worldwide revolution going on and much of it was being blown off on fireworks and wasted and we wanted to fix that very intelligent sweet good directed energy and make it last and give it a history. I have always said that one of the things that we are doing is to redeem the good name of the hippies.
59:18
SM: You obviously have lived a life of activism to not only obviously, when you when The Farm has experiences like I know you have helped with the improvements for the poor. There have been various causes as you were reading in some of your literature about saving the trees, even saving the whales, helping people down in Guatemala. I mean, where there is a tragedy around the country, a group of you will leave the area, your home, to help. That is activism. Could you define what an activist means to you, and any other activist experiences you have had in your life?
1:00:07
SG: Well, I really was not an activist before I was a hippie but me and my wife, we were both activists, and so is everybody else on the farm. If you see something wrong, you should fix it. And I believe that is in the Good Book too it says, what though your eyes need to do your hands should both do it and that is why Plenty started off, we helped a guy that had bad luck with tornadoes then we got word that Honduras at that time, it had a bad crop year, and they were starving. And so, we went to the Mennonite Central Committee and we said, if you guys would give us the money to buy the beans for them and get them shipped down there. And then we needed more muscle down there and we got hooked up with Canada and we were moving government level money. And it is because we are honest, and we have vision, same with the hippies. And so, it is our way, in the first place. Second place is really necessary to do it and we have been we have had people down in Haiti for a long time. I have a press card in Haiti myself. And we have places down in Belize, Honduras they used to call it. That is an interesting kind of Indians. There is Guatemalan Indians, Mayan's speaking Spanish, Belize Indians/Mayans speak English and another old tribe called [inaudible] who are escaped black slaves who are culturally a Mayan. [laughs] We have people just like that come through here now and then. In front of our bus [inaudible] lovely [inaudible] and it said "out to save the world."
1:02:36
SM: That is nice.
1:02:37
SG: Might as well be framed.
1:02:41
SM: If you are in a, I always do these little scenarios if you were in a college classroom today and you were a guest speaker just for that particular day, maybe you were introduced by the professor, the teacher could even be a large High School and a young person stood up and said, geez, you know, that must have been scary leaving San Francisco and going in those cars and vans, not knowing where you were going to end up. What gave you the courage to do it?
1:03:21
SG: That is like the people who say, where did you park 50 busses? Where did you park the caravan? I said red zones, loading zones- [laughs]
1:03:32
SM: Well, yeah, really what I am getting at here is what is the life lesson that others can learn from when they look at the caravan and the eventual development of The Farm but most importantly, it is like a young person leaving home for the first time it is that risk-taking. What does the caravan mean for life?
1:03:55
SG: For several hundred of us and we were well head-smart and pretty big. You know nobody is going to jump on us. Nobody is going to go up and attack a thousand hippies fine. And we would be good. And people got to like us and we made friends with people right along the road. We had a baby, at Northwestern, the first one my wife saw delivered before she was a midwife. And we had another baby in Ripley, New York and we were parked in front of a church and the cops asked what we were doing and she said we are a caravan but we were having a baby and now we need to stop. Oh. Okay, follow us and we will show you where to park and they parked us downtown on parking meters. [laughs]
1:04:44
SM: Wow.
1:04:45
SG: And we had the baby and when the baby was born, the church rang a bell.
1:04:52
SM: Was that the first baby from The Farm?
1:04:55
SG: The one at Northwestern was the first one.
1:04:58
SM: Okay.
1:05:01
SG: There was another one in Rhode Island and a doctor came to see us. His name was Louie LeFer, Louie the Father and he came in and showed them how to do heart message on a baby to help them get started and showed him a bunch of good little tricks and stuff, which they used in the next two birthing. And what I see is that doctors love our midwives. They just love them. And treat them good and take care of them.
1:05:36
SM: I would love to interview your wife when she gets some time. You know, maybe during the summertime, if that might be possible.
1:05:45
SG: Maybe so she does it quite a lot. We both do a lot of media.
1:05:53
SM: Well I know I sent you and I sent you the master email. I can send one to her or you can just share hers, whichever is okay. I noticed that you say your politics is beatnik?
1:06:06
SG: Yeah.
1:06:07
SM: And, that your religion is hippie.
1:06:11
SG: Right.
1:06:12
SM: So just define that a little bit better.
1:06:19
SG: Well, beatniks came out of an artistic thing. It was artists. In fact, before beatniks were bohemian, and it went like that all the way back to a couple of guys sitting with Socrates. And uh, I do not know I am not sure if I understand that question very well.
1:06:57
SM: Well, it basically I was reading that when someone asked you what your religion was you said hippie, and you did not say Methodist or Catholic or, and then your politics instead of saying Democrat or Republican you said beatnik.
1:07:13
SG: Right, right. Well, I we brought some of the first Jews anybody had seen down into Tennessee. And this one guy, someone was questioning him about his religion and being Jewish you know and he said hey, man, I like the red parts.
1:07:39
SM: [laughs] You mean something very important, because when you are talking about the (19)50s, and you think about the Red Scare that was everywhere, McCarthyism in the early (19)50s, even, even the late (19)40s and then to the-
1:07:52
SG: I was in the Marine Corps from (19)52-(19)55.
1:07:54
SM: Right. And then when you talk to you, you made some references I do not know what was jokingly or serious about the fact that when you say commune people think communism. Was there a fear? Was there a fear that was why people did not speak up that much in the (19)50s who may have had attitudes like the beats?
1:08:15
SG: Well there were people in the (19)50s like that but they were more in the arts. They were not you know, I loved Lena Horne when I was a little boy. She was an activist about it you know. She did not have to act like she was black. Nobody would have known if she decided not let them know. But she would do that. She stuck with it. I felt respect for that.
1:08:56
SM: What were the when you look at the counterculture. Counterculture is really defined as being challenging to the status quo in so many different ways. It is not- it is what people oftentimes look upon is not the normal it is then it is not the abnormal, it is just not normal. Theodore Roszak wrote the book The Making of a Counterculture where he talked about the different consciousness. How do you define counterculture?
1:09:29
SG: Well, in the first place, its spontaneous. It is not made by somebody. When I was running for the Green nomination, I was at one thing and this guy had done and said the socialist thing pretty well. You know, and I got my turn to talk and I started off the first thing was what he said and like that, and that caught on so good that the Green people all over the United States were using that to say they agreed with the previous speaker, you know, what he said and like that was a useful thing, you know that he did not have to be in a relationship of the opposite. You know? And one of my favorite things is the only thing that anybody else needs to know about your religion is how groovy it makes you. No need to tell them anything else. Show them how groovy you are.
1:10:45
SM: You talked about the books you have written. But were there any special books that had an influence on you in the (19)50s and the (19)60s in the (19)70s, that were written by other people?
1:10:56
SG: Well, in (19)49 or it was (19)45, my family was living in an army cold weather base in Colorado [inaudible] and my father was a civilian housing manager, and I went to school there. I stole and burned quite a lot of things. And that base was at the end of the war. They were cutting the barracks up and taking them away and stuff and they were going to burn the library. My mother was scandalized by that we had an old (19)39 Cadillac four door and she went over the library and picked out the stuff she thought would be good and picked out a carload of it that we kept. And what she got me was Fools Bet by Mark Twain, Melville, Robert Lewis Stevenson and those guys. And that was what I read growing up. And then when I was an English major, and I am taking a degree in English, I find it is my old friend! My friends from when I was a kid, these guys are American writers. All right. And that is some of the real philosophy of our thing. And I go back through that kind of writers like Thoreau and people like that, and I do not go on a classical religious paradigm as my father never would church, my mother never went to church. My children, say, man it is so cool that your dad got us out of the church.
1:13:05
SM: Was there any movies that when you look at the movies that have been produced and, on the screen, are there when you talk about the boomer generation in the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Or is there is there anything that is realistic to you?
1:13:25
SG: In movies? I think the main thing about movies is that they are not realistic. That is what they are for so, I do not know what you mean by realistic.
1:13:38
SM: Were there any movies that cause a lot of Vietnam vets say that when they see these movies, that is not the way it was.
1:13:46
SG: Yeah well, I is not a Vietnam vet I am a Korean War vet. In fact, I am the kind of a vet that when I see generals on the screen with [inaudible]- [laughs]
1:14:16
SM: A couple other questions here. This is a very important question I have asked everyone. And that is this business about healing. Boomers, of course, were born between (19)46 and (19)64. And the 1960s, the certainly the assassinations of a president, a senator and a civil rights leader. The riots in the cities, the burnings of the cities, certainly the 1968 convention, there was a lot of turmoil. There is a lot of division, as you well know and you live through it just like I did. The question I am asking is this. Do you who feel that the boomer generation is still having problems with healing, due to the extreme divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and lesbian and straight. Divisions between those who supported authority and those who are against it, those who criticized the war and or supported it, as well as the troops? And what role has the wall in Washington DC done with helping to heal the nation beyond the veterans?
1:15:36
SG: The Wall?
1:15:36
SM: In other words, what I am asking is, do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing?
1:15:45
SG: I think that we are healing and we are healing other people, and that we are continuing bringing healing on down through history. It is the most loving, and healing and humanistic and best philosophy that I have seen. And I have read the other stuff you know but my wife and I, she is writing things now and one of the things that amuses her quite a lot is that guys who we consider to be heavy philosophers have ideas like that men have 32 teeth and women have 28 and to a midwife, that just an inexcusable level of stupidity. [laughs] Philosophers do not make philosophy they pick it out of the society and learn about it. Tim Leary said that he was a stand-up philosopher. Like a stand-up comic.
1:16:56
SM: Um Hmm.
1:16:58
SG: And I think my friend Paul Krasner who was a very good friend of mine who was like that too.
1:17:04
SM: Yes.
1:17:06
SG: And I think I am kind of like that. I am supposed, where I go, I am supposed to make them like me. When I went to penitentiary, I knew exactly what my job was. I was to show them a class act. And I did, and the result of that was that the news was coming to see James Earl Ray every week. And that was kind of a drag. And then I was there, they would see me for more fun and so got to where I was getting three televisions and two newspapers every week until they got so sick of that talking in Nashville that they sent me out to this place where I got put in the hole. And a counselor said I will tell you what, you can stay at my office until they find you. And there were always people helping me out like that. That was what I was about. And my folks went up to you know, get me out of the hole. And Mr. [inaudible] said let him rot, and they pushed me down and they had this guy Bass, Mr. Charles Bass. And Bass was a minister of corrections who had risen from a guard and when they saw him, he said, I am not worried about people who family come out for and he spun me out of the hole and put me in the trustee camp and gave me my mail that had been held back for several weeks and let The Farm bring me vegetarian food. I told him, I said I mentioned you in my book I was talking to him on the phone, I mentioned you in my book. He said when people came to my house, I show that to them.
1:19:03
SM: Wow. So, you believe then really that a generation like this does not have a problem with healing?
1:19:10
SG: I think we are healers.
1:19:11
SM: Okay.
1:19:12
SG: We are doing everything from a better diet. You know, we are talking about the hippie diet. Hippies are going to live a long time and not have, you know, not have high blood pressure diseases. I have been you know, watching my diet and eating vegetarian stuff for a long time and my last heart appointment the doctor says, I have the heart of a teenager and I should be congratulated. I had a prostate examination they say you get an A plus on this exam. [inaudible] I am a very healthy old dude.
1:19:46
SM: You have never had diabetes huh?
1:19:49
SG: No diabetes.
1:19:51
SM: Which is one of the most rampant disease in the country right now.
1:19:54
SG: Yeah. And it is the diet.
1:19:59
SM: When we asked Senator Muskie that question, I took a group of students and Senator Muskie basically, I he did not say anything about 1968 because he was at that convention. Basically, what he said is we have not healed since the Civil War and he was referring to the racism that was still in the country. So
1:20:18
SG: Yeah.
1:20:19
SM: That was what he was referring to because the Civil War in the south a lot of people have not healed according to him.
1:20:29
SG: Yeah, well, we live down here in the middle of all that kind of stuff.
1:20:37
SM: Did you have a generation gap with your kids?
1:20:44
SG: One of my kids decided that he would follow my military thing and became a martial artist that has a black belt in Jujitsu. The other is a computer guy and does that kind of stuff. My other son turned out to be the house holder yogi and I think I am also a house holding yogi.
1:21:10
SM: Because at that period when you were teaching that was when the generation gap between the boomers and their parents was really in its heyday.
1:21:22
SG: Well, my daughter's a boomer and she is quite proud of me.
1:21:30
SM: So, you obviously you were in the commune, but you did not have any like disagreements over politics or anything?
1:21:39
SG: [inaudible] We do not we do not use that word in that way here, we just do not do it.
1:21:50
SM: Why In your opinion, why did the Vietnam War end?
1:21:56
SG: Ran out of money?
1:22:01
SM: And uh-
1:22:01
SG: I think the people in the streets had a lot to do with it. I had a different experience. I came home Korea people said, where you been? You know? We already knew, in Korea we knew what was going to happen. One of the guys had written a little song. (Singing) Pardon me boy, is that an Indochina convoy? Uncle Sam has my fare it is just a trifle to spare. Come to Yokohama Harbor about a quarter to four. Sink a submarine and then you are looking for more. Dinner on the liner. Nothing could be finer than to have your ham and eggs in Indochina.
1:22:44
SM: Hmm.
1:22:45
SG: We knew that [inaudible] was next.
1:22:48
SM: You were a Korean War vet now Vietnam vets were not welcomed home were Korean War vets welcomed home?
1:22:55
SG: Nobody knew they came home. [laughs] And do not think, there were people who were supposed to be for peace who were dumb enough to be bad to soldiers. And I really hate that and regret that. But veterans, veterans, I am straight with veterans and they are straight with me. I am very grateful for my experience that allowed me to bridge that gap.
1:23:24
SM: Let me change I got this [inaudible] Alright, I am back. I guess I get a series of questions. I am going to ask them some of the personalities of the period. But the other thing I want to ask you was the button issue of trust the boomer generation is, as I see, it oftentimes is labeled as a generation that does not trust because so many lies were seen in their leaders, whether it be Watergate with Nixon and certainly the Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson, you have the body counts that McNamara used to give on a weekly basis and we knew they were not truthful. So a lot of the boomers grew up with their leaders lying and they did not trust leaders and so obviously, this probably came up in some of your classes at San Francisco State where students just did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility or authority, whether it be university president, a corporate leader, or congressman or a senator and or even, you know, anyone your thoughts on the issue of trust, as you have seen him in your life, not only through your experiences in the (19)60s in San Francisco, but your life on The Farm?
1:28:54
SG: Well, the thing about Monday Night Class was, especially after it got bigger, was my role became much plainer and it was that I could not discriminate against questioners. And that if I did not know something I had to say, I do not know. And if I answered a question for somebody, they were the one who got to say was the question answered. I did not stand up in front of my class. I sat in a chair, talking to them. I did not use a microphone to talk to 1000 people. And it meant that it was like meditation with a conversation on top. And the way I treated people set the standard for how easy it would be for them to speak themselves so nobody was afraid to speak up in Monday Night Class. And I also had to be easy to call down. If I said something wrong or something I was supposed to roll right away for it, and do not argue about it. And none of that stuff bothered me, it was going to be obviously the right way to do it. But it developed a conversational style. And also, to talk to a bunch of people like that. There are things that happen, like sometimes you'll see the room catch a joke. And it is like watching the wind on a wheat field. Just really, really close to everybody's mind. And the day the students were shot at Kent State. It was a Monday. And I had Monday Night Class. And about 100 people showed up very noisy, about we got to get guns! They are trying to kill us you know, you cannot be all peaceful like this you got to get out there and do it. And so, I am having that argument with them. And somebody comes up and gives me, a little girl gives me a piece of candy and as I pop in my mouth, she looks so mischievous, I thought- oh! And sure enough, I been loaded a big chunk of acid.
1:31:11
SM: Oh, no.
1:31:12
SG: So, coming onto acid and having this argument about violence. And I finally got to a place where I said look here. All these nights I have been coming in here and saying love and peace. You guys have been saying yeah, yeah! Yeah, yeah. I repeat it and you say yeah, yeah. I say love and peace and the whole audience answered me: yeah, yeah. And that showed me that the violent guys were just a little thin fringe in the back. And they noticed it too. They were very well outnumbered by [inaudible] people.
1:31:47
SM: Well.
1:31:48
SG: So, we had that argument about it. And that was what we did. When heroin came, we talked about that. When crack came, we talked about that. We talked to all that kind of stuff. When Scientology came we talked about that.
1:32:06
SM: Hmm. Did you bring guests in? Or was it just you in the students?
1:32:13
SG: Well, no, I did not bring guests in.
1:32:19
SM: Yeah, Kent State. I just got back from the four days there. This is the 40th anniversary.
1:32:24
SG: Yeah.
1:32:25
And it was phew, it was an event that really shocked everyone. April 30th Nixon gave his speech and then on the fourth with the killings of May. So, was that room full that night when?
1:32:42
SG: Oh, yeah.
1:32:42
SM: How many were students were there that night?
1:32:44
SG: It was about [inaudible]
1:32:47
SM: Wow.
1:32:48
SG: The thing is I do not call people [inaudible] I do not call people [inaudible]
1:33:03
SM: Some said that they wanted to go and create violence, others did not. Did anybody talk about the police? What were the main issues on the student's minds?
1:33:13
SG: Well, the guys who had come to class for the purpose of disrupting and trying to turn it toward a violent thing were strong in what they were saying. The usual people who came to class felt that it was an attack on their consciousness and that they did not want to part of it.
1:33:32
SM: What happened at San Francisco State in the in the days after?
1:33:37
SG: Oh, we had we had we had one time where everybody was thrown off the campus by the police. There were hundreds of cops there. So, I was kind of assaulted. On the way out, I stopped in front of each cop, cops all lined up. I would go up and stop in front of each cop and looked him in the eyes until we had caught his eyes. And then I would stop at the next one and I did that to every cop on the line all the way up because I knew I was right and they were wrong.
1:34:06
SM: Yeah, that was a big issue back then is when do you bring in police from off campus and not just choose your own police and that had to be done by the administration was this where Hayakawa got in trouble?
1:34:21
SG: This goes back to the 1700s you know, town and gown. You know, that same thing. We were peaceful. Everybody knew we were peaceful. And there were people who were not but, that they were welcome to come to class and hear what we said.
1:34:41
SM: Did you ever talk about the Black Panther Party across the bay and what the Black Panther Party was doing?
1:34:50
SG: I did not know him but I would shake hands with him and say hi. And there was also one of them, this one guy point guy that was part of that bunch of guys who was an artist. And the best guy I saw in that bunch of guys, he was so good. And he used to, he knew how to do one of those old dances. Throws a little dime to a little black boy and goes dance for your trip. He knew how to do that. The problem with it was, he was really good at it. And he would do that and the other guys would say make it stop, make it stop augh! And he died because they asked him to start H. Rap Brown's car and it was bombed.
1:35:48
SM: Let us say that again? Uh.
1:35:51
SG: This is the guy Ralph Featherstone. Featherstone. And he was the guy who started H. Rap Brown's car but it had been bombed and they killed him.
1:36:02
SM: Somebody sent a bomb in Brown's car.
1:36:05
SG: Yeah.
1:36:06
SM: Unbelievable. And where was that car located?
1:36:09
SG: I do not know.
1:36:09
SM: Oh, Okay, right here in the Bay Area?
1:36:12
SG: I do not think so.
1:36:13
SM: Oh, okay.
1:36:14
SG: I met Ralph Featherstone when we went to San Francisco State college to do the Mississippi challenge for the Mississippi delegation because of the ride. So, I went, I got to meet a few guys, you know up at the, Mo Udall. Udall said, I agree with guys. And my name starts with a "U" and by the time it gets to me, I want to know whether it is going to make it or not. And if it looks like it is going to make it, I will go on with you.
1:36:46
SM: Right.
1:36:46
SG: If it looks like it is going to make it.
1:36:49
SM: Another issue that happened around the time you were at San Francisco State was People's Park over in Berkeley.
1:36:55
SG: Yeah, I got in a little trouble for that. I said that it was an unreasonable expectation, they could not take real estate away from somebody because they wanted to it was not going to wash and the establishment was not going to allow it to happen. And it was going to cause bad confrontations. And it got somebody killed!
1:37:14
SM: That is right, the guy on top of the building.
1:37:17
SG: And I did not like I did not like the general way. Bad tactic, bad strategy.
1:37:28
SM: Did the students ever talk about Governor Reagan? Because he was tough on students.
1:37:34
SG: Yep. Well, the thing about, about Ronald Reagan is that when I was a little boy in Santa Fe, about 12-13 years old, if I would go to the movies, walk about two and a half miles into Santa Fe to see my weekend movie, and if I came to the movie house, and it was a Ronald Reagan movie, I would turn around and go home without seeing the movie that weekend. I could not stand him. I still cannot stand him. If he is not doing a part he has no more expression in his face than a potato. He was not a smart man. What Reagan did! Reagan did not do shit except for he was an actor for some.
1:38:23
SM: I know I interviewed Ed Meese down in Washington, his attorney general.
1:38:27
SG: Yeah.
1:38:28
SM: And he had picked Ed Meese to be his top person when he was governor. He did not know him until that point. But Mr. Meese had been involved with the Free Speech Movement as the assistant district attorney of Alameda County. So, he had already been involved with the Free Speech Movement (19)64- (19)65 but under Reagan, he was in charge of coming down hard on students in (19)69 at People's Park.
1:38:55
SG: Yeah.
1:38:57
SM: So, before I get into some specific questions I am just got names before we end this. Are there any other, we have talked about, you talked about People's Park, you talked about Kent State, you talked about drugs. What were some of the other topics that you talked about with the students? What were what was on the boomer’s minds when they came into that class? Just general issues?
1:39:23
SG: Well, I did thumbnail sketches on all the world's major religions. And that was one of the things that we talked about it. I used to say take all the religions and put them on old fashioned IBM cards, and stack all the old religions up like that and some of the holes would go clear through the stack.
1:39:50
SM: Hmm.
1:39:51
SG: That was what we were interested in. What would have gone clear through the stack?
1:39:57
SM: Did you talk about any of the other movements like the Women's Movement or the Gay and Lesbian Movement or the Native American, American Indian Movement they were very big too.
1:40:08
SG: Yeah, I, when they did the Longest Walk from Oakland to Washington DC, plenty gave them an ambulance for the run. And I went on that run. And when I got the DC, I saw that the security guys- those guys who had red threads braided into their braids to identify that they were security was keeping the press away from the old guys.
1:40:36
SM: Hmm.
1:40:37
SG: I was friends with one of these Indian chiefs, Oren Lyons, he's one of the Mohawk traditional chiefs and I went to Oren, because I knew him and I said look Oren, the security guys are keeping the press away from the old people and the old people are prettiest thing you have got. They should not be doing that. They should be facilitating the press to get to the old people. So, they had a meeting with the [inaudible] that night, and he expressed my opinion to the meeting and they agreed. He came back out and it was like that. And he told me that I was the hippie elder.
1:41:14
SM: Hmm. When you look at you ever see had all these experiences of the musicians that were in the Bay Area, whether it be the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane. My golly, I remember learning that Boz Skaggs was from there along with the Huey Lewis and the News and Tower of Power, the list goes on and on in the Bay Area. What musicians and artists that you felt were the most important they had the greatest influence on the boomer generation, in your view?
1:41:51
SG: Musicians and artists?
1:41:54
SM: Yeah, what musicians? When you were at San Francisco State did you ever talk about the musicians in your classes?
1:42:03
SG: Oh, I know. I had musicians in my class. And- [laughs]
1:42:10
SM: I mean, did you talk about what was happening in the music scene?
1:42:13
SG: We had quite a hot discussion one night about who was St. Stephen.
1:42:17
SM: Who was who?
1:42:18
SG: St. Stephen.
1:42:20
SM: Okay.
1:42:21
SG: [singing] Was a rose in and out of the garden. He goes country garden wind in the rain, wherever he goes, people are complaining.
1:42:31
SM: And that created discussion for a couple hours?
1:42:35
SG: Yeah! Some people thought it was, some people thought it was not. I had to kind of go easy because I had been over visiting Garcia concerned about Pig Pen he was getting to be a real bad alcoholic. I want to talk to Jerry about it and I did not know it but one of the, one of the guys that wrote the lyrics was in the next room with the door open while I was there talking to Jerry. And we had all this discussion. And that guy is the guy that wrote the lyrics for St. Stephen.
1:43:09
SM: Oh my god.
1:43:10
SG: Stuff out of my mouth from that visit while I was at Jerry's that I recognized.
1:43:14
SM: What was his name?
1:43:16
SG: I think it was Hunter.
1:43:17
SM: Oh, wow.
1:43:17
SG: I think that was the one. I had a couple of them.
1:43:24
SM: So, you knew Jerry Garcia. Who were some of the other personalities in the Bay Area that you got to know?
1:43:31
SG: Well like I said like I said, I knew Big Brother and the Holding Company before they had amplifiers and that I was a family you know, I did not play anything. I was just unabashedly a fan. And I you know; the Airplane came up with Grace. Wow! The Airplane's got a girl! And then Chester brought Janis up from Texas, then Big Brother had a girl. All that stuff is interesting stuff going on at the time and I suppose people there were some people that just put me out there, nirvana. I love rock and roll.
1:44:22
SM: Did you get to meet Janis?
1:44:25
SG: What say?
1:44:26
SM: Did you get to meet Janis Joplin?
1:44:28
SG: Oh, yeah. She did not like me very much.
1:44:31
SM: What was she like?
1:44:32
SG: Well, the hippes were scandalized when one by two turned up and set a bottle of Southern Comfort on top of the piano because we did not drink hard liquor. The hippies were all surprised by that. But you know, her stuff was kind of blues, that is hard on you to sing. And I had to respect to her heavy weightiness in that class. I liked it most it was raising divine.
1:45:12
SM: She died of an overdose of drugs I believe did not she?
1:45:15
SG: Yeah. And not the kind, nothing that I would take either.
1:45:19
SM: What was? What did she die from?
1:45:22
SG: It was not reefer.
1:45:26
SM: Was she drinking and taking medicine at the same time or?
1:45:30
SG: I think I think that she was like, I cannot talk about other people's dope.
1:45:35
SM: Okay. Yeah. And you knew Grace Slick too then? And how about Stevie Nicks? Did you know her?
1:45:43
SG: Who was the second when you said Grace Slick? Grace. Yeah, I did not know Grace, but I admired her greatly.
1:45:51
SM: And Stevie Nicks is the other one that camp out of the came in the area.
1:45:55
SG: Stevie Nicks?
1:45:55
SM: Yup.
1:45:57
SG: No, that is after my time.
1:45:58
SM: Yeah okay. Any other any of the other political people that you get to meet in may be activists like Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis that group?
1:46:13
SG: I went up to Abbie Hoffman's place up on the St. Lawrence Seaway and let my boy Sam drive his boat. I was at Abbie's last gig and it was funny bus but Leary and Abbie and what was his name? One of the Black Panthers.
1:46:30
SM: Bobby Seale.
1:46:32
SG: Bobby Seale and when the guy introduced us, when he introduced Bobby Seale out in the suburbs it would have been a scary thing but now it is just Bobby Seale, but now it is just Bobby Seale's new outdoor cookbook.
1:46:46
SM: Yeah, did not I think Paul was the moderator was not he? Paul Krasner?
1:46:53
SG: No way, not with that one.
1:46:55
SM: I know he moderated one of those programs.
1:46:57
SG: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing about Tim was that he was a technician. And when it was his turn to talk, he leaned up and he put the first syllable right into that microphone and made the room rain. And he had the intention.
1:47:19
SM: Okay, I am going to, I am just going to list some names here that I do this, I finish each interview with this. And then I have a question on the legacy. But these are just personalities or terms from the era when boomers were young. And that is (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s so and you can just get quick responses, these are either personalities or terms or events. First one, first two are just your thoughts on Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda?
1:47:52
SG: Well, there was good leftists and stuff like that. That was fine. I did not mind Jane Fonda that they were not hardcore hippies or anything they were media people who were sympathetic.
1:48:09
SM: John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
1:48:12
SG: I cried when John was killed.
1:48:15
SM: Where were you? Obviously, people remember where they were when that happened. Do you remember the exact moment that you heard it?
1:48:22
SG: Yes, I came down out of my apartment on Castro Street in San Francisco right at the entrance of the tunnel, I came out and everybody was weird. I could not tell what it was but people were weird. I just walked up to somebody says what happened? And he knew I did not have to explain, he said: They killed Kennedy.
1:48:40
SM: Oh, wow.
1:48:43
SG: I could tell, the street was just freezing.
1:48:46
SM: And then the next everybody remembers the next four days around the TV set. Were you around it to?
1:48:52
SG: Somewhat but I did not have television. I had to go to somebody else’s. I did happen to be around a television set when Martin Luther King gave the "I have a" I got to see that. It was very eerie that they shot him the next day.
1:49:08
SM: Yeah, Bobby Kennedy.
1:49:11
SG: I loved Bobby too. He did not have a chance to develop but he would have been a heavy weight with a chance to develop and in those days look how easily it passed by that it was a Muslim that killed him. These days that would cause a fire.
1:49:32
SM: How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
1:49:36
SG: They were good guys and they tried hard and I appreciate them but I thought they the Clean for Gene was a bad idea.
1:49:49
SM: Hmm.
1:49:49
SG: He did not want the hippies to look like him. He wanted. They believed in him for his philosophy but he was not visibly supported by them. So, they put out the word Clean for Gene.
1:50:02
SM: So that turned a lot of people off towards Senator McCarthy?
1:50:05
SG: I think so.
1:50:07
SM: I wish he knew that because he was advised to do that.
1:50:10
SG: Yeah.
1:50:12
SM: That was not his idea.
1:50:13
SG: Good!
1:50:14
SM: No, because I already interviewed the guy in my book project here, who gave him the idea.
1:50:21
SG: Ahh.
1:50:21
SM: So that that did not come from him originally. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.
1:50:31
SG: Well, I was, in the beginning was a gringo enough that Martin Luther King embarrassed me because of his passion. And Malcolm X. You know, I got to like Malcolm X. I liked him pretty well. And it was one of the interesting things about him was when he went to go visit Islam and he came back. Islam is not a racist religion.
1:51:02
SM: Hmm mm.
1:51:03
SG: Of course, he had to do something to get him killed.
1:51:08
SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
1:51:15
SG: Cheap ass politicians.
1:51:17
SM: How about Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford?
1:51:24
SG: Ronald Reagan. Like I said, I would not go to a movie that weekend. A Ronald Reagan movie. Gerald Ford got a bum rap. He was not as dumb as they made him out to be.
1:51:34
SM: How about Dwight Eisenhower?
1:51:36
SG: Now there is a general and a president, you know? And a guy that had the nerve to say the thing that they get people to say yet: It was clear and present danger to allow undo power of the United States military industrial complex.
1:51:55
SM: You are right.
1:51:56
SG: Best thing a president ever said.
1:52:01
SM: Hubert Humphrey.
1:52:04
SG: Called him Hugh the Jew but I kind of liked him.
1:52:06
SM: How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
1:52:10
SG: Well, I was at a gig with Jerry Rubin and I said something to him and he said: I did not mean you Stephen! People over thirty.
1:52:19
SM: Remember he was on the Phil Donahue show, and he really gave it to Phil Donahue.
1:52:23
SG: I was on the Donahue show.
1:52:29
SM: Who was on Donahue?
1:52:30
SG: Yeah.
1:52:31
SM: You were?
1:52:32
SG: Yeah.
1:52:33
SM: Really? What year was that?
1:52:35
SG: Well, it was kind of a spoof because Donahue was just about to Marlo Thomas and so he was running a bunch of shows, several a day to build up a little honeymoon time for him. And so, I got some kind of a crew, I never got to meet him. He did not come to the farm. He sent a crew down here. The lady from the crew was having an affair with one of the techs and stuff. Then I got to go talk to him and so I never got to - he did not have a clue who I was when we went on the air. And he said how many billionaires had I cashed out!
1:53:12
SM: How many what?
1:53:14
SG: Millionaires had I cashed out into our commune.
1:53:19
SM: Oh my gosh.
1:53:22
SG: This is Marlo fixed him up, she civilized him. But he did that to me and the result of that was we are coming down on Chicago in our Greyhound bus and the semis that are passing us say - hey look at that their bus man, hey, you guys got any wacky tabacky? Another time, though, we were in the Greyhound and a driver coming the other way said, to look at that old Greyhound, pretty as Dolly Parton in a wet t-shirt. [laughs]
1:53:53
SM: What are your thoughts on Chicago Eight because that was a very big trial.
1:53:58
SG: I knew somebody from then that [inaudible] those guys
1:54:03
SM: That was you know, that was both Rubin and Hoffman and Hayden and Huey Newton and Dave Dellinger and Lee Weiner.
1:54:16
SG: Well, I already told you about the guys I knew.
1:54:17
SM: Yeah. That was well, that was a big event in (19)68. What do you think about the women leaders? I have not been talking about them yet, but Gloria Steinem, Betty Freidan, Bella Abzug, the feminists.
1:54:33
SG: I like them fine they have a hard road to hoe and if they get shrill with it and like that but I am very impressed by their courage although I still think that, it was Johnson who called Bella Azberg was not it?
1:54:59
SM: I am not sure.
1:54:59
SG: [laughs]
1:55:03
SM: Yeah, when we talked one of the big issues within the movements itself, the civil rights, the antiwar, gay and lesbian, American Indian Movement, all the movements basically it was the sexism that took place within the movements in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. It is a lot of reasons why the women left the, the antiwar movement and joined, joined well, started the women's movement, the second wave, so to speak. How has when that happened with the movement, you obviously had men and women in the communes. How are women treated in the commune?
1:55:47
SG: Do not do not call it a commune. If you get in the habit of it you will put it on the page if you get in the habit of calling it that.
1:55:53
SM: The Farm.
1:55:54
SG: The Farm, exactly.
1:55:58
SM: I correct myself, sorry.
1:56:04
SG: [laughs] The way it was on the farm is that there was one pick-up on the farm that would start and it belonged to a midwife.
1:56:17
SM: I did not quite hear that. Say that again?
1:56:21
SG: I said that the way the farm was about that stuff, if there is only one pick-up on the farm that ran it would belong to a midwife.
1:56:28
SM: Okay.
1:56:29
SG: Our, we had guys who went to medical school from the farm and came back as doctors. And so, we had midwives and doctors instead of being the other way. It is one of the reasons that our midwives are so uppity. I love uppity women.
1:56:43
SM: Well that is that is a positive thing then. Your thoughts on the Black Panthers themselves the Huey Newton's, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Bobby Seales, H. Rap Brown.
1:56:53
SG: You know, I understood it and I loved them a lot but I was just sorry that they were so involved with the guns.
1:57:08
SM: Good point. Would you would say the same thing about the Weatherman?
1:57:11
SG: Yeah.
1:57:12
SM: Yeah and the American Indian Movement went that direction too.
1:57:17
SG: Being a combat veteran I had to carry dead and wounded back out of the rice paddies. It gets rid of making guns seem romantic pretty well. What was the last thing you just said there about?
1:57:29
SM: They were the names of the Black Panthers: Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown that you already mentioned.
1:57:37
SG: I met Stokely. I did not meet H. Rap Brown buy my friend got killed starting his car.
1:57:47
SM: He is in jail now. You want to want to talk about American Indians? Yeah, the American Indian Movement was between (19)69 and (19)73 very strong. They took over Alcatraz and then ended up at Wounded Knee where there was violence.
1:58:09
SG: I know the two guys who got busted.
1:58:20
SM: Dennis Banks.
1:58:21
SG: Dennis Banks and what is his name?
1:58:25
SM: The other one.
1:58:26
SG: Russell Means.
1:58:27
SM: Russel Means. Yeah.
1:58:28
SG: I have a funny relationship with Russell Means he knows I got juice. He does not know why. [laughs] I saw him at a thing with him one time and I said 'Hey, Russell, you are really doing good.' And the look he gave back to me said, who the fuck are you to tell me how I am doing?
1:58:48
SM: He has done pretty well. He has been in movies.
1:58:50
SG: Yeah, well, they called Hollywood before he had ever been in the movie.
1:58:53
SM: Right?
1:58:55
SG: But also, we were at a thing and in Taos and we were supposed to hold it down to ten minutes and Russell says well I expect brother Steve will try to hold it down but I do not know if I can or not.
1:59:09
SM: Wow. Well you know, Alcatraz was happening when you were teaching that class. I believe.
1:59:14
SG: Very likely.
1:59:15
SM: Yeah. Because that was (19)69. And it might have been an issue too. Couple more names here, Dr. Benjamin Spock.
1:59:25
SG: Well, he was considered the godfather of the movement and all that and he said one thing that was like, true, but I was kind of sorry he said it. He said that they did not really pay any attention to us and we knocked all the windows out of the Senate [inaudible] building.
1:59:43
SM: He was in the group that levitated the Pentagon.
1:59:47
SG: Yeah and [inaudible] was in that.
1:59:51
SM: And Norman Mailer was there too. He wrote a book on how about the Barrigan brothers Philip and Daniel Barrigan.
1:59:59
SG: Oh, that is what you call a good Christian!
2:00:03
SM: Walter Cronkite.
2:00:05
SG: I love the one right in the middle of the shit totally hitting the fan. The biggest, best circulation magazine cover was Cronkite and at the wheel of his yacht and it was obviously the ship of the day.
2:00:26
SM: Daniel Ellsberg.
2:00:29
SG: Great dude. Great dude.
2:00:33
SM: How about Walt Disney?
2:00:36
SG: You mean?
2:00:38
SM: The man who created the dynasty?
2:00:43
SG: Dynasty?
2:00:44
SM: Disney, Disneyland, Disney Studios.
2:00:49
SG: I kind of like the dope smokers that used to work for him before he started hiring people who smoked dope.
2:00:55
SM: He is more influential than people realize with the TV in the (19)50s.
2:01:02
SG: Yeah. Well I did not have TV in the (19)50s.
2:01:05
SM: You know, it is interesting Howdy Doody is another one because somebody wrote an article that Howdy Doody was the reason why the (19)60s began, can you believe that?
2:01:18
SG: No.
2:01:18
SM: [laughs] Just a few more here, Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali.
2:01:24
SG: Well, I feel that the thing about them is like when Joe Lewis went and knocked Max Schmelling down. And it was that is one of the ways that people can get out is athletics because they break out of their cultural shell that way that those guys showed to break things out that way. I have to admit that I had to smile when he was trying to talk about what kind of a boxer he was and he says just look at me. I am pretty. I am pretty!
2:02:07
SM: [laughs] Yeah. How about Robert McNamara and John Dean?
2:02:18
SG: John Dean was the one they called the young man with the dirty hands of the clean mind. And he has still got a good reputation on the tube, he used to talk all the time. McNamara, the guys were just what do you call them? Apparatchik?
2:02:35
SM: Yeah. How about Watergate and Tet?
2:02:40
SG: Tet? The Tet Offensive?
2:02:44
SM: Yeah.
2:02:46
SG: Well, Watergate was good because it got Nixon in deep personal shit. But the Tet Offensive that was just them finishing kicking us out of Vietnam was not it?
2:03:03
SM: Yeah, Tet was in (19)68, which many people believe is why LBJ decided to withdraw. Because even though we beat them back, they, they had the opportunity to attack us all over the countries of Vietnam that is.
2:03:22
SG: Well, Vietnam was when we took over a place that was being held in an evil political grip from the people who was holding, which was the French. And we just took over somebody else's old Colonial got there and we had to pay the bill for life was ours.
2:03:46
SM: How would you define the hippies? in comparing them to the hippie?
2:03:53
SG: Era? Okay, he was International.
2:03:59
SM: They were they were much more political than the hippies though, would not you say?
2:04:03
SG: Yeah, but politics is not bad when you need it.
2:04:07
SM: Right?
2:04:08
SG: The politics if you are comparing politics to inspiration and stuff.
2:04:14
SM: Yeah
2:04:14
SG: You want to give people guns and things, they got to know.
2:04:14
SM: I have three slogans here that that I have asked each person that I have interviewed, that define the boomer generation, and these are the three slogans: Malcolm X: "by any means necessary" which is symbolizing the more violent aspects, the guns, the radicalism. Then you have got the Bobby Kennedy who gave that those words: "Some men sees things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not." That was kind of the activist mentality and all the movements without violence. And then what I call the more hippie mentality which is the which was on the Peter Max posters that were so popular in college campuses in the early (19)70s which said, and I had one in my room: "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should get together, it'll be beautiful." And the only other quote that somebody said to me was "We shall overcome" which symbolic of the civil rights movement. Do you think those kinds of define the boomers?
2:05:18
SG: No, no, I do not think so.
2:05:35
SM: Do you have some that you feel would define them?
2:05:46
SG: I do not think of them as the boomers. I think that that is a that is a psychological and media kind of a thing. And it does not have a lot of magic to me.
2:06:06
SM: But the term may not but do the- do the way the people that were living at that time, the younger people, does that kind of cover them? Or are there some quotes that maybe are better?
2:06:21
SG: Well, the first one of that bunch of the ones that you gave me, well, I like this
2:06:32
SM: The Malcolm X?
2:06:34
SG: What was this?
2:06:36
SM: By any means necessary.
2:06:37
SG: Oh no, I do not like that one. By any means necessary is a threat. By any means necessary is trying to justify guns. I do not like that.
2:06:51
SM: Bobby Kennedy's is okay. The Bobby Kennedy ones, okay?
2:06:57
SG: Yeah, I like that. I like that.
2:06:58
SM: How about the Peter Max one?
2:07:03
SG: It is okay. But it gets kind of long and involved, it is not what I am picking out as the writer [inaudible]
2:07:13
SM: Are there any words that you think could better define?
2:07:25
SG: People who talk about how the (19)70s was a drag? When the (9)70s was happening, we were building the farm and we some of our great, finest years. It is like that. I, I sort of parted company [inaudible] when I came out on the road and we came here [inaudible]
2:07:56
SM: You know a lot of people do when they compare the (19)60s in the (19)70s they really put the (19)70s way below the (19)60s.
2:08:03
SG: Yeah.
2:08:04
SM: Particularly after (19)73.
2:08:07
SG: Yeah well, we built The Farm at that time. We were very strong. And you know, we had a United Nations grounds pass because we were an NGO united nation. We were powerful political [inaudible] categories and stuff.
2:08:28
SM: A lot of reasons why people attack the (19)70s as they think of disco music and-
2:08:35
SG: Yeah.
2:08:36
SM: And the lack, and the dying of activism. I think that is oftentimes-
2:08:40
SG: Our guys said they might start a band called the Cisco Ducks.
2:08:47
SM: Oh, that would be interesting.
2:08:50
SG: Which is "Disco sucks" Y.
2:08:52
SM: Yeah, I remember that. Ok, a couple more and then we are done. Vietnam veterans against the war. Your thoughts on them?
2:09:01
SG: Well, the Vietnam War was such a hard on the other people thing, that the guys were just used up like that. And I got big compassion for Vietnam vets and [inaudible]
2:09:15
SM: Have you visited the wall in Washington?
2:09:17
SG: No.
2:09:18
SM: Oh, okay. Have you seen it though? on TV or?
2:09:22
SG: Yeah, sure.
2:09:23
SM: Have you talked to any vets? What do you think that wall means to this nation?
2:09:29
SG: Well, it was supposed to make them notice that a lot of young men were sacrificed but I do not. Let us see Kurt Vonnegut has the place where this guy says we are not going to have any airplanes fly over and celebrate the war heroes. What we are going to do is what we ought to do all of the guys who were in power and had anything to do with it, are going to [inaudible] fluid rub mud on themselves and crawl around on the ground and oink like pigs.
2:10:09
SM: Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
2:10:15
SG: Clinton was skillful but unreal. And Jimmy Carter was really real it could have been more skillful.
2:10:24
SM: How about George Bush, the first?
2:10:32
SG: Some rich guy that had no business in politics.
2:10:39
SM: How about the Catonsville nine. Are you aware that? That was the Barrigan brothers.
2:10:44
SG: Well, I thought that they were they were good priests, that is what priests are supposed to do, stand up for everybody.
2:10:52
SM: How about My Lai-
2:10:54
SG: Massacre?
2:10:56
SM: Yes.
2:10:58
SG: Well, there is so much illegal violence in the cleanest war that none of its clean and violence as a way to just threatening people and bullying.
2:11:22
SM: And people think that and a couple other instances is the reason why Vets were not treated well when they came home. Not so much by Americans as a whole but by organizations, veterans’ organizations. Angela Davis and Timothy Leary.
2:11:42
SG: Well, I like Angela Davis accept its a dumb thing to carry a pistol into a courtroom. It was a stupid thing to do and it ruined her reputation. And Tim Leary, I always thought of him as Uncle Tim. Because your uncle does not care what you do as much as your dad does.
2:12:02
SM: Right. And we already mentioned The Weathermen. The year 1968. Just the year.
2:12:15
SG: I met the love of my life who I am still with 40 some years later.
2:12:23
SM: John Lennon.
2:12:25
SG: I liked John Lennon. I was in Germany and when I talked it was being translator. And so, I talked about that when he says, "train car with (...?). He translated it and then I turned to my translator and said, you did not say [inaudible]
2:12:48
SM: Still there?
2:12:50
SG: Yeah.
2:12:50
SM: Okay. Yeah, Barry Goldwater and William Buckley.
2:13:01
SG: Goldwater is an honest whatever he is. And Buckley is not. Well, he was kind of a gross old fart but he had a hard row to hoe and he did pretty good.
2:13:34
SM: How about the Little Rock Nine and the Free Speech Movement?
2:13:39
SG: The Free Speech Movement like I said, I answered the phone when they called [inaudible] but I do not know about that nine? Which nine?
2:13:49
SM: The Little Rock Nine were the, they refused entrance to the school, Little Rock, Arkansas.
2:13:58
SG: I guess I missed those guys.
2:13:59
SM: When the Port Huron statement, which was the SDS manifesto, and the Peace Corps.
2:14:07
SG: Peace Corps was a good thing.
2:14:10
SM: When the best history books are written they are often written 50 years minimum after a period takes place. So, the (19)60s some of the best ones should be written in 10 years. But some say that the best books are written once the generation has passed on, which is one day all 74 million boomers will no longer be around. Your thoughts on what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing in saying about this period, and the young people and you know, they still got 20 more years of life, even though the oldest is 63, and the youngest is 47. So, they are, they are still going to do a lot of things yet. But-
2:15:02
SG: A revolution is that thing that those who can do and those who cannot teach. I did not like being in the penitentiary but it did not hurt me a bit as far as my immediate history.
2:15:23
SM: And you were in the penitentiary for selling drugs?
2:15:26
SG: No, I never sold dope. I was in the penitentiary because guys on the Farm were caught growing grass. I did a year.
2:15:34
SM: Okay.
2:15:38
SG: I had the best penitentiary stay outside of Martha Stewart. I mean the warden would come out and get with me in the yard. One time the guy says, well you are vegetarian, I am a vegetarian, what do I do? And basically, they said, go line up with the black Muslim which I not know what they were talking about. I got there. The black Muslim was not in the chow line, he was pre-arranged [inaudible]
2:16:06
SM: Wow.
2:16:07
SG: So, I said, [inaudible] somebody said I should ask you guys about vegetarian food and the guy says someone has been in the [inaudible] And then when they found out who we were and where we were at, I was in the chow line and that same leader that afternoon was behind me in the chow line. And he kind of shouldered me in the back a little bit and [inaudible] white means 'very clean brother'.
2:16:40
SM: I guess, is there any questions that you felt I was going to ask that I did not?
2:16:49
SG: Well, I do not know. The thing is, I do not depend too much on the on the aphorisms and the media, they use aphorisms like they are important but they are not really that important.
2:17:08
SM: So, you do not like that term? Boomer.
2:17:10
SG: No, not really.
2:17:11
SM: Yeah, because you know, the group that followed Boomers are Generation X.
2:17:16
SG: I can hardly hear you.
2:17:18
SM: Okay, can you hear me now?
2:17:20
SG: Better?
2:17:21
SM: Yeah. The group that found is Generation X, and today's young people are Millennials. So, it is something that educators put on and they call the Greatest Generation, the World War II generation and then the Silent Generation, which was only five years. So, it is the way people put labels on and I found by doing this project that most people do not like the labels.
2:17:49
SG: Yeah.
2:17:50
SM: My last question is this. If you do not like the Boomer Generation, what would what would the Vietnam generation? Woodstock generation? The Protest Generation, what? How would you label the generation?
2:18:06
SG: What generation?
2:18:08
SM: The generation born after World War II.
2:18:16
SG: I do not know that is not how I do my nomenclature. I do not sort names is to maybe complicate things.
2:18:29
SM: He just more really and not-
2:18:32
SG: I cannot get you over your phone anymore.
2:18:34
SM: Are you there? Can you hear me?
2:18:37
SG: Barely.
2:18:38
SM: Well, I am done.
2:18:40
SG: Year what?
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Stephen Gaskin
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Gaskin, Stephen ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors; Political activists--United States; Hippies; Gaskin, Stephen--Interviews
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Stephen Gaskin (1935 - 2014) was an American Hippie counterculture icon. He was an author of over a dozen books and a political activist. He went to prison in 1974 for marijuana possession and his voting rights were rescinded. Gaskin was a recipient for the first Right Livelihood Award in 1980 and an inductee in the Counterculture Hall of Fame in 2004.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-05-13
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.103a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.103b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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138:44