15 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5fee99b328a1db5e147a7b94f2eba928.mp3 34eb024bb12e420a71df5952d4808711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 16 April 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Leslie Cody and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ridwan Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:11 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text <span>Being part of the Zebari tribe, Ridwan has 8 sisters and 7 brothers. In 1991, he fled to an Iranian refugee camp on foot. He came to the States after marrying a Kurdish refugee who arrived later in 1996. Ridwan earned a Law degree in Kurdistan and received his master's degree in law from Syracuse University. He is an active member of the Kurdish community.</span> Keywords Kudistan; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish Diaspora; Religion; Iraqi Shia; Assimilation; European Kurdish Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Ridwan Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Leslie Cody Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 16 April 2014 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: You are going to talk some good stuff. Okay, but I am going to ask you to sign it again, Ridwan, it is just a, oh see, if you are a lawyer, you read things before you sign it. 0:14 RZ: Yeah, you have to. 0:18 AD: That is right. 0:24 RZ: Why you want to do it, I have already done that. 0:48 AD: I know, the first time, but we are doing the second interview. 0:50 RZ: I do not have anything else to add. [laughs] 0:56 AD: No? 0:57 RZ: I said everything. 0:59 AD: Okay, here is the thing; As I am doing this project, Ridwan I am learning and I realized a lot of differences between countries, so now the questions will be very specific gear to Iraqi Kurds, because when I was first time talking to you it was more like in general and I had this image of Kurds from Turkey and there is a quite a big difference between like- 1:32 RZ: Yeah, you could say that. 1:35 AD: So, having said that as you know in Turkey because of the republic, the main, the approach toward the minority was like assimilating them, but in Iraq, thing like little different like I am not going far back I am just taking after the World War II especially like the constitution of 1958 with that constitution the Arabs and Kurds like all, according to the constitution they were considered associates in Iraq, right? 2:28 RZ: Yeah, that is true. 2:31 AD: See, if you are especially interviewing with a lawyer. 2:34 RZ: Yeah, you mean that you came to the implication it is different. 2:40 AD: So that is my question. 2:44 RZ: That part has never been applied it is just ink in the paper, on the paper. 2:51 AD: So, my question was even though the constitution stated that in reality were Arabs and Kurds partner in the nation. 3:04 RZ: This was the constitution said, yeah. 3:07 AD: But was it the reality? 3:09 RZ: No, it is not, it was too far from that, yeah. 3:12 AD: Okay. 3:12 RZ: What they called, there are new Kurds in the government like minister or, the government established some, some institutes like they call autonomous areas legislative and executive branches, but the government, the regime let us say they put in that branches their people and their men and whoever they wanted not elective people from let us say common people, no they put their friends. 4:07 AD: But Arabs not Kurds. 4:09 RZ: No Kurds, they had to be Kurds, but the Kurds that who they wanted to not anybody that wanted to candidate himself with let us say be elected by people, no. They put some people. 4:28 AD: They pick the nominees. 4:30 RZ: Yeah, they put whatever they want. 4:32 AD: So, it was not very democratic? 4:39 RZ: Not very, there was no democratic. 4:40 AD: No democracy. 4:41 RZ: Nothing, yeah. 4:42 AD: So, could we say that there was a cultural autonomy, or the Kurds had a cultural autonomy, 4:47 RZ: No, not even cultural actually, 4:49 AD: Not even cultural. 4:50 RZ: No, because they even did not let Kurds to educate in their language let us say in the school educational institutions they did not let Kurds study their language, in some cities Yeah they did but the people demonstrate and they opposed the government and they let them have some Kurdish schools in some cities; some big cities like in Erbil and Sulaimania, but in other areas even the education was in Arabic. 5:33 AD: In Arabic? 5:34 RZ: Yeah. 5:34 AD: That is important because I am specifically looking at those revolts and uprising to get some power you know like power relations within the Iraqi government so in what ways, for example you just said in Sulaimaniya and Erbil they revolted to get Kurdish Education and you said they got it. 6:01 RZ: Yeah, they had some Kurdish School, not all of them but some of schools and there was one Kurdish language class at university and that is it. 6:16 AD: And that is it. 6:19 LC: Like in what ways did they had uprisings? 6:25 RZ: What uprising? 6:26 LC: Like as far as revolting like education and stuff, like how did they get that? 6:34 RZ: Yeah, actually it was not like, the government I mean they did not give anything until they saw that the people were really serious, they are opposing the government policy, so they said let us give them some sort of autonomy like in education, in administration. 7:01 AD: Was something like let us shut them off, just a little bit. 7:04 RZ: Yeah, just keep them quiet, give them something they will be quiet. 7:08 AD: because there is like no political gain with that, right. 7:11 RZ: No, it was just- 7:14 AD: Politically Kurds did not have any power, is that what you are saying? 7:18 RZ: Yeah exactly, they did not have, they did not have anything. It was just something some sort of what they call administrative autonomy, they had local mayors even governor, but it does not necessarily mean that had to be Kurdish governor in the Kurdish city or Kurdish mayor, no but usually they were, but sometimes government transfer them to other place like in the south. 8:08 AD: Because the government, we all know Saddam’s government, I mean personally call a fascist government, so some sources said that there oppression even against Arabs, would you agree with that? 8:32 RZ: Yeah, there was against Shiite. 8:37 AD: But they are also considered religious minority in Iraq, right? 8:42 RZ: Actually, there are not minority, they are majority of the Arab, yeah. I mean speaking of Arab nation, yeah, they are the majority Arab in Iraq, but they were not in power, Sunnis were in power, Saddam and his group, so they, what they call, they killed Shiite too. Because they thought that Shiite more is related to Iran and closer to Iran especially in 1980s there was a war between Iran and Iraq so Saddam was thinking Shiite helping Iran in this regard and religious men did not make a fatwa against Iran, because some other scholars they made fatwa that fighting Iran is Jihad or Halal but Shiite did not do that, so they killed some other Shiites like al-Hakeem, I think and Sadr. Yeah. 10:09 AD: So, they were mistreated just like Kurds you would say. 10:13 RZ: Not like Kurds but- 10:16 AD: Not as much but? 10:18 RZ: Because they were not like Kurds, they were not opposing the government, there were some heads of Shiite they opposed the government but common people they did not do, they were like Iraqi citizens, they did not do like what Kurdish did, that way. 10:40 AD: What did Kurdish do? 10:44 RZ: They did a lot. They were not accepting the regime’s policy I mean whatever regime said they did not accept it. Especially Kurds were in the mountain, I mean it is easier for them to fight with the government and hide in the mountains, yeah it was easier for them, but for Shiite in dessert. 11:15 AD: Okay, so all that started in recent history we are talking about, we are not going back to Ottoman period because- 12:29 RZ: When you go back to far to Ottoman or during the British colonialism in the Arab countries be there was, the people who governed the country were not Arabs, say the people during the Ottoman empire belonged to Ottoman empire not Arabs, even they were Arabs but they were not Arab nationalism, they belonged to another bigger thing, Ottoman Empire. Same thing during the Britain colonialization; it was Britain taking care of everything but not Arabs, even in that time Kurds had a special opinion or special situation but I mean what happened after 1960s and (19)70s. 12:58 AD: Starting this constitution and all of that- 13:06 RZ: Yeah, after the, especially after the Baath party came to power, they started doing whatever they did against the Kurds and other nations. 13:18 AD: Is that constitution created during that Party, Baath Party time? 13:21 RZ: No actually before the Baath party, but it did not take long before the Baath party came to power. 13:24 AD: It is after Abdul-Kareem Qasim? 13:25 RZ: Yeah, Abdul-Kareem Qasim, he came to power in 1958. 13:29 AD: So how do you consider him? 13:34 RZ: I do not know much about him because it was, yeah, I read something about him in the history or I heard something from other people, fathers and grandfather. He was not that bad like Saddam, other people came after him, he was in the beginning of the republic, before that it was kingdom; Iraqi Kingdom, but after that Iraq became republic, and he was the first president, he was better than Saddam, let us say. Yeah. 14:25 AD – Okay, uh. 14:25 LC: We pretty much covered all this. 14:27 RZ: Sorry. 14:38 AD: Yeah because you said the language was Arabic in school. 14:42 LC: We should talk about the diaspora. 14:49 AD: Okay, now, I am going to ask you something about Diaspora. 14:54 RZ: Go ahead. 14:55 AD: Because currently there is not really, well not yet let me put it that way, there is not much about Kurdish Diaspora in the United States but there is a lot of work done in Europe from either Iraq or Iran or Turkey Kurds relocated to various European countries and their experiences over there, so now I am gonna read something to you. I know this guy I talked to him via email. He is from Turkey, and he has been living in Sweden for more than 25 years now. So, this is what he said about Sweden, he says: “When I came to Sweden, I liked this country a lot and I wanted to adopt it. I saw Sweden as my second homeland. Now I see myself as a Kurd, I see myself neither as a Swedish nor as an immigrant but as a Kurd who wants and wishes to go back. I do not feel any belonging to Sweden. I tried so much to make them as equal, but it did not work. Still after ten years they ask you where are from, do you miss your homeland, do you like Sweden. Now I know that whatever I do, I am net being accepted as an equal.” So, have long have you been in the United States Ridwan? 16:56 RZ: Six years. 16:57 AD: Six years. Okay, do you have similar sentiments like this guy like as a Kurd living in America? 17:11 RZ: I think this is his opinion, I do not think each Kurd feel the same way like he does in Sweden and everywhere. It does not mean that we came to here in America or any other country that we came here we want to live here forever. Everybody has something he wants to another country either, I mean some people wants to go and get better education, some people wants to go get a better job and better life. Some people I mean they run away from the political situation in the country because they have different political view, they belong to certain political party. They run away from the regime’s policy; I mean everybody has different reasons. 18:40 AD: But do you think your Kurdish identity is coming out in the society or people do not care where are you from, I mean in general what are your sentiments, do the people keep asking you those questions? 19:04 RZ: I think nowadays these are something you have to be worried about them much. I think human is getting like international identities right now. You live here today, your job is here, your work is here, tomorrow you may go some other country, you live there, you work there. I mean you do not have a clear identity; you do not care about identity as much as you care about wherever you feel comfortable, you get your life. Yeah, I think humans getting global identity more than, what they call a small global identity. Yeah that is my opinion. 20:11 AD: So, you do not feel like the otherness, like you are other. In here do you feel that do you feel like there is some kind of negativity attached? 20:29 RZ: I do not see anything like that here in America actually. I heard people like they are complaining in Europe and other countries but here I have not seen anything. 20:42 AD: You do not see that- 20:44 RZ: I do not see any difference between me and somebody that lived here and born here grew up here, the difference only, I mean, is personal. 21:02 AD: I mean there are some racist people everywhere in this world no matter you go but we are like dwelling on natural attitude of people here. 21:15 RZ: I have not experienced anything like that actually. I feel very comfortable here in this country. 21:34 AD: Okay. 21:34 LC: So, Ridwan do you feel like you, your family and like the other Kurdish people around here have not maintained their like Kurdish traditions and to what extent have they? Now that you are living here. 21:57 RZ: In our family actually they say, we do not feel like we are in a problem with our culture or with our identity. I do not see the situation that way. We still practice our cultural issue our cultural matter. There is not to concern about in this regard. And nowadays it is, in this like you have many ways to maintain your culture, your identity; you have internet, you can, I mean talk with your family, yeah on skype we see everything. This new world you will not lose anything if you want, unless if you do not care about it, just go I mean whatever you see, but if you wanna, you have many ways to do whatever you want. Now I could know much about every other culture not only my culture. When you check internet, you find anything you want, and yeah there are many say Kurdish channels, TV channels you could watch them, all day long. I think if you really want, you will not lose anything, you will be just like, not exactly like, but like other people live in Kurdistan. 24:07 AD: But then you have children, and they are, they were born here, and they will grow up here and so do you think things will take another turn for them a little bit. 24:24 RZ: I am not saying that they will be the same as we are right, no. But if they really want to, they will be good too. I mean their parents must tell them where they came from and how they came here and tell them a little about their culture. I think they will find their way to explore more about their culture and identity. 24:57 AD: So what do you observe, I am not talking about you; your kids are very young, when you look at local community members, Kurdish members and some probably they had their kids or the kids came in a very young age may be they are teenagers now, like do you see an influence like, are they like very Kurdish or do you see like American effect on them? 25:32 RZ: Not all of them, no, some of them yeah, they are like other people live here, like American, but not all of them, but even those who are go in a wrong direction they still have opportunity they could come back look other people do, their Kurdish friend what they do, what they belong to. 26:12 AD: How about, do you have any American friends or your wife? I am not talking about colleague at work, you know everybody has a colleague but do you have an American friend like you hang out with? 26:28 RZ: I personally do not have any American friend but my wife does actually, she does have. But I think it is not easy here to find a friend like a really close friend. I mean friends usually come from work or education, school somewhere, when you are done with your work or your school, your friendship gets less and less, I think. But my experience now six years, I do not know but I think American like that much friendship even with each other, they go what their job require, sometime they stay a little bit longer after they are done with their job but I mean in our country it is different. Friendship is different, and it is not associated with job or school. I mean, I still have friend we talk to each other often, I mean we have very close friendship even we have not worked together or we have not been ins school, but we know each other and we still know each other and have a good friendship, but here I do not see that way, here I think friendship come from either you work together or you have been at school together, may be after school a little longer then you forget each other, do not you think. 28:40 AD: Yeah, I agree with you, and I do not, it is not even Kurdishness it is I think geographically where we are coming from, there is like our ties is stronger, social ties. But this is a capitalist society and that is the end results. 29:01 RZ: I am not saying it is something bad or good but that is how it looks like, maybe here is better than we do. I mean you never know you the future this will be better. 29:18 AD: That is different, but like let us say your kids grew up, do you mind if they marry an American or what I mean American, could be anybody and could be Muslim from Pakistan or Turkey or whatever you know because there are issues; there is religious issue. 29:48 RZ: I know what you mean. 29:50 AD: Do you mind if someone? 29:52 RZ: I will try to tell them who we are and how we have to be, then if they decide to choose a different way, you do not have to force them to change that- 30:07 AD: But you are not gonna disown them like because they do not marry a Kurdish person from Iraq? 30:14 RZ: No, I would not do that I personally would not do that; I will tell them the reality, I mean the reality that we want, that we want to be. 20:26 AD: Your wish. 30:27 RZ: Yeah, but if they choose a different way, it is their choice I cannot force them. 30:32 AD: But in general, when you look at this society it is pretty conservative, right? Like what I- 30:39 RZ: Things are changing right now. 30:41 AD: It is changing. 30:42 RZ: Yeah, it is changing. Very widely change not like, I mean since let us say 19th century, I mean this twenty year it has changes more than a century before. Twenty years I mean from 1991 until now has changed a lot, not only in Kurdistan in I mean all other countries. 31:25 AD: Oh Yeah, in Turkey too. Did we cover all of these? Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, we asked all those questions because I have the other interview, but this was like very specific gear to Iraqi society. 31:48 LC: And this is not necessary. 31:49 AD: No-no. 31:50 LC: And I do not know. 31:51 AD - Well we kind of talked, things have changed that is what he just said, but you are, what I see like over these interviews, the ones I have been part of it or the ones that I did not participate that Leslie transcribed and I listen but come out is the Kurdishness, you know the Kurdish identity and I think this all goes back to history because especially really Ridwan in Turkey, you know they were not recognized and so many Turks have been assimilated into society and they even forget about their Kurdish identity and what is, did you have to, that is the other thing, did you have to hid your identity while you are living in Iraq, let us say you are in Baghdad for business or where did you go to university? 33:07 RZ: Erbil. 33:08 AD: So, but did you have to live in Baghdad, I do not remember you told me all that but- 33:13 RZ: I have never seen Baghdad not even- 33:15 AD: I mean did you live outside the so-called northern Kurdistan? 33:19 RZ: I know what do you say, I mean it was easy before, let us say after 1980, it was not easy for Kurds to go or to live or to buy a land or a property in let us say from the Arabs cities, it was not like. 33:52 AD: After Saddam took power. 34:09 RZ: Yeah After Saddam and after some year passed in his ruling, it was not easy for Kurds to go to live or to, it was easier to visit, but to live in another city that majority were Arab, it was not easy. Not even easy to go for an education. 34:29 AD: So that is why… Like for minorities there is actually not just Kurds like being minority in Europe or any other country like hiding minority you pretty much negotiate your identity, so you did not have that kind experience I gather. 34:55 RZ: I think if you are the minority, I think you wanna show your identity more when you are the majority. I think that, maybe it is not right. 35:08 AD: That you could not do it in Turkey. 35:09 RZ: but unless if there are some restrictions that you are afraid, they might make fun of you say I belong to this special group, but if there is no restriction and there is no exclusion, you prefer to show your identity. I mean their certain group Kurdish or Turkish or whatever. That is what I am thinking. I think when you think let us say you are in danger or you are dangerous situation to lose your identity, you try to show your identity more than if you among all of your own peer, your own group members, you do not care what your identity, but if you are a minority within the majority then you try to show your identity. 36:20 AD: so that is interesting to me I never heard that before because not, yes in a dangerous situation, that is correct, but also economic and political I have seen or read many examples that people do not bring or did not, not do not I should use past. Did not bring their minority identity forward or even social because they wanted to be accepted socially otherwise you get be exclude from the community or let us say you want to do business, if you bring your minority identity out strongly, then you will not make money, but you will be pushed out. 37:08 RZ: I think if you look at, in business let us say economic way it is different, when you want to, yes you could say that this is one of the restrictions because you want to get some sort of benefit that is why you do not want to show your identity. But in normal situation that there is no risk on that you will show your identity, why not? 37:43 AD: Of course, no you shouldn’t have to hid your identity Ridwan, that is how I feel, but that is not how it has been, you know unfortunately that has been the case and that is still the case in so many other countries. 37:58 RZ: I said unless there is some sort of- I mean restriction of some sort of shame when you I belong to that certain group or the group that you belong to is not accepted by other people then you will try not show your identity. Yeah, this is true. 38:28 AD: I mean what I am saying this it is even happening in the United States maybe you can, I mean you are an American like let us say you have some African American heritage, but you appear like me, I am not saying like you because you are really fair complected. So, if you do not bring that out, I witnessed because I lived in deep south for 10 years, you do not come and say, oh you what legally, and those people are legally black, when you go mark your race, and you know what they never talk about it. I mean forget about me, Middle East, Europe, we are talking about the United States because blacks are the minority in the country and that is still continuing you hid to be accepted, because then you say oh she is white, I mean not blonde hair blue eyes, but you are still considered white. I have seen this so. I witnessed, I witnessed. 39:43 RZ: It is true, but I am talking about the normal situation. If something in your benefit when you hide your identity then you will hide, if there is, but I am talking about the normal situation. I do not know I personally prefer that to show my identity to others. 40:09 AD: That is how should be, but unfortunately. But you did not experience that either? Wherever you lived your life experience, you did not have to deal with that. That is what I am asking, like did you have any experience like that wherever you lived. 40:28 RZ: Not here no, not in the United States. 40:33 AD: Not in Iraq? 40:34 RZ: In Iraq, yeah it was, I mean many people they hid their identity during the Baath regime. Yes, that happened. But I am talking about here actually. 40:54 AD: Not here, I was like speaking about homeland. 40:58 RZ: Yeah, there were some people they did hid their identity even some people they marked in the official documents themselves as Arabs. 41:22 AD: So, they were even lying. 41:23 RZ: Yeah, not because they wanted to, but if they wouldn’t have done that they would have treated in some different way. They might have lost some opportunity of a job or an education or something, so they prefer to- 41:50 AD: Okay, that is what I was asking about, I was refereeing actually to homeland- 41:54 RZ: But this is not something they wanted to, they did that because of the situation, otherwise they would have lost something, but many people refuse that and they lose the opportunities but they did. 42:25 AD: But here it is different, in America, you say you do not have to- 42:33 RZ: Yes, here is different because I mean everybody is equal in front of the law there is no pressure on you to hide your identity and nobody asks you to do that I mean, and if you did not do that you will lose something or you did not get benefit, no you are free. 43:05 AD: Well but there is this negativity toward Islam also in this country, maybe not toward Kurds, probably they even they do not know what Kurds to be frank with you after this 9/11 you know there is this negative sentiment toward Islam all though as a man it wouldn’t really affect you but if you are covering your head then you are exposed completely that you are Muslim. 43:39 RZ: Not everywhere, but in some places, it is true. Like in airports let us say if you have scarf on or if they know you are Muslim, may be they will look at you in different way but in other places I do not see anything like that, like when you apply to a job or to a school or something, I mean any other place but in security, I mean talking about security they will sometime- 44:18 AD: When you are going through passport control for example. 44:23 RZ: Yeah when you go through what they call the metal detector, Yeah, they will probably look at you and, I mean they will keep an eye on you. But in other places, I do not see, and I do not blame them actually that, in the security issues, that is how they keep this country safe and out of any terrorist attack. 44:53 AD: Yes, exactly and then even this, what. It was the anniversary yesterday the Boston Marathon, even those guys came from Daghistan, from former Soviet Russia and they are Muslim too. The picture is getting more and more negative; it is like… you know what I mean. 45:21 RZ: Unfortunately, that is true, that is how I mean we do not have to blame them; we have to blame ourselves first. That is what some Muslims do, some of them. 45:36 AD: Yeah, who are extremist, 45:38 RZ: Yeah, but it is a small group, but they do in the name of Islam, so. 45:46 AD: Jihad, right? 45:47 RZ: Yeah, I mean whatever they call it. It is happening. 45:52 AD: I think I covered everything, right? Do we have any questions? 46:00 LC: We covered everything. 46:02 AD: We covered everything. Is there anything you want to add Ridwan? 46:07 RZ: No. 46:08 AD: No? That is good. So- 46:10 RZ: I did not come for this actually. [laughs] (End of interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ridwan Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb7637475b6f090d4d5a3c0422ff5833.mp3 18d3de733eb976b6b79cb769f631e175 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 25 May 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rondic Zerbari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:38 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Rondic is the oldest of her three sisters and two brothers and has an engineering degree from University in Kurdistan. Roondic arrived in Binghamton after marrying a Kurdish refugee and currently lives with her husband and children in Broome County. Keywords Kurdistan; Iran; United Nations; United States; Gulf War; PKK; Second Gulf War; Food Shortage; Religion; Christian Kurds; Jewish Kurds; Dohuk Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Rondic Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 25 May 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University Library -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 AD: Can I have your name one more time? 0:12 RZ: Rondic Zebari. 0:14 AD: Okay, and where were you born? 0:18 RZ: In Kurdistan Duhok. 0:19 AD: Duhok and so uh, how long did you live there? 0:26 RZ: Twenty-five years. 0:27 AD: Twenty-five years? Okay we will get more details about Kurdistan that is for sure. So, did you live in Duhok the whole time? 0:41 RZ: No, I spent some time in Akre, it is like two hours away distance from Duhok. 0:53 AD: Is it another city or village? 0:55 RZ: Another city, yes but smaller city than Duhok. 0:59 AD: Smaller city. 1:01 RZ: Duhok is the biggest than the Bahdini (Mantaka) area. I studied elementary school and middle school in there and high school and college in Duhok. 1:15 AD: Okay so what did you study? 1:17 RZ: Engineering. 1:18 AD: Oh, what kind of engineering? 1:20 RZ: Water Resources. 1:21 AD: Wow, so how many siblings do you have? 1:27 RZ: Three sisters and two brothers. 1:30 AD: This is small Kurdish family. 1:33 RZ: It is an average. [laughs] 1:36 AD: Yeah, they have fourteen kids. 1:39 RZ: And I am the older one. 1:40 AD: You are the older one- So did all your siblings go to school, get education? 1:49 RZ: Yes. 1:50 AD: Where are they now in Kurdistan? Or- 1:52 RZ: Yeah, all of them are in Kurdistan only me here and my husband- he is my cousin. 2:01 AD: Who is your husband? 2:04 RZ: Shivan. 2:05 AD: Shivan is? 2:06 RZ: Shivan Zebari, yes. 2:07 AD: Okay. 2:07 RZ: They were there in 2006 and then I just graduated from university we met there, and we did our engagement there. 2:18 AD: I see. 2:19 RZ: And then he came back to here; he applied for documents for me in order to get visa for me. And then in 2007, the end of 2007 I came here. We did our wedding here. 2:36 AD: Oh, I see, I see. 2:37 RZ: Yes, and I now have three kids, a daughter and two sons. 2:42 AD: Wow, wow, congratulations. 2:45 EI: How old are you? 2:46 RZ: Twenty-nine. 2:47 EI: Twenty-nine ok. 2:48 AD: Wow, so let me ask you this, your entire family still over there in Kurdistan? 2:56 RZ: Yes. 2:57 AD: You are the only one here? 2:58 RZ: I am the only one, yes. 2:59 AD: So, okay. So how was your life in Kurdistan, like when you were growing up, so because you spent your full life over there and we can get different perspective as a child and teenager and young adult you know different stages like what did you see? How were things before the gulf war? Let us start with that. 3:30 RZ: Right, I do not quite remember the time before the war because I was little. In 1991 the big revolution in Kurdistan I was seven, eight years old. And at that time, because my parents were always talking about Kurdistan and Peshmergas and Barzani, when that happened it was just like fresh memories coming back and, in my head, because I did not understand when they were talking about it, when they were listening to Shivan Parwer’s songs. It did not mean anything when I was a child. And then it has, meant something. So, beginning of my like learning about world it was Kurdistan I have blood in Kurdistan. Before that, they did not start like switching language. I studied Arabic, elementary middle school and high school I studied in Arabic. 4:48 AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic? 4:50 RZ: Exactly, but only one year after me was Kurdish. So I was like chasing in Arabic. 4:55 AD: I see, so after 1991 they changed the rule. 5:00 RZ: Anyone which is one year younger than me would studied Kurdish. 5:07 AD: I see. 5:09 RZ: It was hard for like people at my age, a little bit younger than me, a little bit older than me. Because who fail in one class it would be in Kurdish language [next year for them] and it was hard because to study in Arabic more all the subjects you know mathematic and bio physics chemistry that was all in Arabic language and then switching into Kurdish language it was very hard for a lot of my friends. In the neighborhood, all like talking to each other, all the friends it was a lot harder for some of my friends. That cause a lot of them to drop out of school. 5:58 AD: I see. 5:58 RZ: Yes. And later on, I mean the, I do not like the, when I came here after finishing university and all of that, I love the education system here. It is very hard in there. I think the reason why live in America it is because of the Education system. It is very flexible here. There is very hard. In university if you fail one class, you have to start the whole year in the next year, yeah. 6:37 AD: Yeah, it is hard. 6:40 RZ: It is very hard. 6:42 AD: So, do you remember the gulf war, like 6:47 RZ: Not really, no. 6:49 AD: So, you did not leave Duhok during the war? 6:52 RZ: Yeah, we left we went to Iran instead of Turkey. 6:58 AD: Okay, so do you remember? 7:00 RZ: I remember some stuff, yeah. 7:02 AD: What do you remember? 7:06 RZ: Then my family was smaller and I had one little brother I was the oldest I was seven years old and my sister was three and just my brother was new born. We were a small family. It was easy for us. But we travelled with my, our relative, my father’s relatives. It was very hard for them because they were a big family like my husband’s family. It was harder for them who had elderly people with them. My grandparents, they were died before 1991. So, it was like easier for us to travel. 7:51 AD: I see, I see. So do you remember the camps? 7:56 RZ: Yes. 7:56 AD: How was it? 7:57 RZ: It was cool for me, I do not remember any like bad stuff. 8:00 AD: You do not? Well that is okay because this is your memory, this is your history it does not need to be the same with Zhiman, you know or with your mother in-law. It is your memory. So what do you remember? 8:16 RZ: I remember we were always visiting the big cities in Iran, like Razaiya and I do not remember the- these names, but they were very nice and beautiful cities, because right then in Iraq it was not like very civilized country. Iran was more civilized and clean cities, beautiful one, like people more civilized unlike Iraq. And I remember there was a river in there we were all days like going to the river and swimming. My father love swimming and yes. 9:00 AD: Oh, that is nice. 9:02 RZ: Like always holding me and his shoulder we were going to the deep water. 9:09 AD: Wow, so that is nice. 9:11 RZ: It was very nice but the problem was the river was going through a lot of villages and they had animal, sheep and domestic animals. It was like not clean water. After a while I got, my skin got very rough and- 9:27 AD: Oh my God. 9:28 RZ: Yeah, but the time we got into Kurdistan we spent like three months in Iran I was very sick, my skin got like axima stuff like that and my ear got very pain, infection I remember a lot of water came out of it. My mother was crying because she thought it is the end of my ear, I will be like cannot hear anything, but potentially I got better. 10:02 AD: Oh, that is good. So Where did you live in Duhok, did you have a house or did you live in an apartment? 10:12 RZ: We had a house. And my parents still live in there. 10:17 AD: So, when you came back from the camp you went back to your house? 10:23 RZ: No, right then, when we came back from Iran and the other people from Turkey Duhok and Akre and other big cities they were not safe to live people in there. United Nations they made some small cities they called them [Al-Mantiqa Al-Amina] the safe areas. Like my mother in-law told you in Zakho. And we lived in Serseng. Those two cities they were the only the safe ones that United Nations would watch them against like bombing. 11:02 AD: Yeah, because- 11:03 RZ: We were not able to go to Duhok and other big cities. And we spent like another months in this area, and we lived like there were buildings not completely built. We lived there. And it was not like just blocks- 11:29 AD: - Yeah, unfinished. 11:31 RZ: - Exactly. 11:33 AD: So, after that you went back to your house. Was your house still standing? 11:39 RZ: It was still standing. Some of our neighbors they did, not all the people run away from Kurdistan to the borders. There were our neighbors, they were old they could not do that, they stayed and they are safe. 11:58 AD: They stayed and they were still alive- 11:59 RZ: Yes, and they were alive and like they tried to safe our house from the other to steal things. Everything was just the way we left. We did not lose anything. But the only problem with my parent was right then they had saved a lot of money to build a big house, like two layer house, big one. They did not finish the house and they had all the money with them. When we ran we needed money 12:38 AD: So, they carried they money- 12:40 RZ: We carried the money and we had our relatives, so they gave the money to our relatives, and they spent on us. So, when we were back we do not have any money to build our house and to complete it. 12:59 AD: I am sorry I forgot to ask you. Did your mother work? 13:05 RZ: No. 13:05 AD: Your father, what was he doing? 13:09 RZ: He is a teacher, yeah and he is the only son as my grandpa had the kind of store he was rich right then. 13:11 AD: I see. 13:12 RZ: But after that my family was very rich I grew up in my childhood in a very rich environment, but after that we became let us say not very poor but poor. Because all our money was spent in that four months. 13:46 AD: I see. Are your parents still alive in Kurdistan? 13:49 RZ: Yeah, they are alive. 13:52 AD: Okay, so what did your father do when you came back from the UN city I would say? 14:00 RZ: He just, he continued running his father’s store, it was like grocery- 14:06 AD: - Like a little convenient store? 14:12 RZ: Exactly, and he was a teacher he worked both. 14:18 AD: - Okay, so he continued doing that. So, then you continued to live your life. You went to school and all that. 14:33 RZ: I was in the first grade when we ran away and the event was in March, so by the time we came back it was like summer. So, in school they did an exam for all the students just to let them to pass the year and go to the next grade. 14:59 AD: You are too young you wouldn’t remember but I was in the United States then and I watched that war on TV I am not kidding you, CNN broadcast of that war on TV, the first Gulf war I remember so vividly I am like wow look at this the war is going on and I cannot watch it on TV and it was devastating to watch, I remember, of course I could not see all the after, then you do not see what happens, you know what torment and torture you go through. 15:40 RZ: We have seen those videos afterwards you know. 15:43 AD: Oh yeah, definitely. So, how was life after that? Many people left in 1996 to come here. 15:54 RZ: Right, so as I said this is my cousin’s, Shivan’s father is my uncle [brother of my mother]. They came here and we were there not from the people were able because my uncle was a driver for an organization, that was why they were able to come here. 16:19 AD: I see. 16:19 RZ: And afterwards, I mean after 1991, 1992, 1993 it was a little better because people still we had money were a little rich could run their life their kids, after that the situation becoming worse and worse because the United Nations put like restriction on the Iraqi region do not trade with any other country so stuff were like very expensive. I remember there was not sugar [sugar was not available], it was very expensive. I remember my father used to love tea, all the Kurdish people love tea. Even tea was very expensive to serve your guess. It was very hard. I mean I remember we did not have variety of food it was very poor nutrition. We never drank milk after 1991. Yogurt was very hard to get it. Only we had for five six years we had only butter for breakfast. And like rise was very dream meal. It was not only rise even bread was very bad, black and very hard to eat it. It was so hard, it was very bad. My childhood after that we all complained about food, anyone you like interview with them talk with them at my age would complain about food it was very bad nutrition. Like candies you would never see a candy, only Eid you know celebrating events, Eids. Yes. And even the cloth they would buy for us cloth only one time in a year. For me like I would go for two years in that school with only one dress. Yes, it was very bad Situation. 18:48 AD: So how long did that continue? 18:51 RZ: It continued pretty much from (19)91 to (19)98 or (19)99. Yeah and then it was a little better and better. 19:04 AD: Let me ask you before we hit the second gulf war. Where you lived in Duhok was it like all Kurdish families or where there any Arabic families. 19:17 RZ: They were all Kurdish families with like Christian Kurdish and there is a lot religion. 19:22 AD: There are Christian Kurds? 19:25 RZ: Lot of Christian Kurdish- 19:27 EI: - And Jewish as well. 19:29 AD: Jewish Kurdish- 19:30 RZ: – Yeah. 19:30 AD: Angelique was asking me, I said there is no such thing. I never knew, how can you be Jewish and Kurdish? 19:35 Angelique: – When did I ask you that, Anne? 19:38 RZ: There are. Especially Christian Kurdish, there are a lot of them. I have a lot of friends with them. 19:46 AD: I know there are a bunch of Christian Arabs. But I never heard Christian Kurds, I thought Kurds are all Muslim. 19:55 RZ: No. 19:55 EI: Yezidis. 19:56 RZ: A lot of Yezidis and a lot of Christians and Jewish. 20:01 AD: But you were getting along just fine? 20:04 RZ: It was like you would not recognize, only if like me and my friend, if someone wear a scarf you would know this is a Muslim, otherwise not all the Muslims wear scarf you could not like make difference. 20:17 AD: Tell me something, do all Muslims were scarf? 20:22 RZ: No. 20:22 AD: No, okay, like in Turkey. 20:26 RZ: - Yeah, no like however you want. 20:29 AD: - So, your family, everybody wear scarf? 20:32 RZ: No, one of my sisters, no. 20:35 AD: She decided— 20:36 RZ: She decided yeah. 20:27 AD: Okay. 20:37 RZ: So, we had in Kurdish families some parents are very restricted like they force their daughter to wear scarf. 20:46 AD: But your father is a teacher so- 20:48 RZ: My father was not like that, like it was optional for us. 20:55 EI: After 1991 there is a domestic war between two parties, yeah, so how it affected your life, did you affected by that, I mean there was not anymore Saddam’s authority. 21:08 RZ: That was the effective one on me because I was like understand everything right then. My uncle was in that war. 21:19 EI: He was from Barzani’s Party? 21:21 RZ: Yes, He was working right with Barzani, with one of their sons. Sidad or something like that. It was very hard because we were always worried about him. Is he gonna survive or not. Sometimes he was leaving for two months and after that it was very hard because they were Kurdish fighting each other. I remember my parents and the older ones they were talking like how before now it was not very painful because it was Saddam their enemy with us, now is brother with brother. That was very painful and like I had, after … the village area, it was very hard for people to go there. We lived in Duhok but I had a lot of friends who their parents the older one or their grandparents lived in village it was so hard for them to visit their parents or their grandparents because it was very dangerous to leave the big cities. Only the big cities were safe, otherwise, opposite of the before, when was Saddam’s war, villages and mountains were safe to hid in there, then it was only the big cities safe to live in there. And there was PKK and yeah. 23:05 EI: There was not Saddam’s authority, anymore right? 23:09 RZ: No, 23:09 EI: There was PKK as well? 23:12 RZ: Yes, and there was a time like PKK were in the mountain, they were like if see anyone would kill them, a lot of shepherd people who take care of their animals a lot of them got killed. 23:33 EI: Yeah, in 1992-1993 like there was a domestic war and Kurdish called it Brakuzhi. 23:42 AD: Oh, Kurds killing Kurds. 23:46 EI: Brother means- 23:49 AD: Yeah, iç savaş, domestic war. 23:50 EI: So Barzani’s party and Talabani’s party and Iran, Turkey, PKK like Saddam like it was just chaos I think- 23:59 RZ: It was chaos exactly. It was very bad, like it was very painful for people it was pain inside like when you have issue in your family and say it outside it was like that of pain, you hold it in your heart. 24:19 EI: That time you were aware of that right? 24:22 RZ: Yes 24:25 EI: Like you are or, I mean the name Brakuzhi did not give after the war, it was that time that people saying this is Brakuzhi or brothers killing each other, you were aware of that right? 24:39 RZ: Exactly, yeah. 24:40 EI: I mean when people were talking to others. 24:43 AD: So, what happened who, Barzani’s party-- 24:48 EI: They negotiated. 24:50 AD: But Barzani took over right? 24:52 EI: No, I mean, Talabani now is the head if Iraq, Barzani is the head of Kurdish part. 24:59 AD: I am talking about Kurdistan. 25:01 EI: In Kurdistan their parties negotiated and like they got fifty, fifty seats, they divided; now they are united in elections I think. 25:16 RZ: Yes. 25:16 EI: So, I mean now they are fine. 25:18 RZ: Now they are a lot better than before. So, people were complaining about that they said- 25:25 AD: – You want to go to bed? 25:26 (Someone)- Are you guys almost done? 25:28 AD: In like a little bit, but why do not you go sleep, go to bed, go to bed. 25:36 (Someone)- no I do not event want to sleep, we have lunch ready, that is why. 25:38 AD: What lunch, no no, no. 25:40 (Someone): It is already ready. 25:41 AD: Oh no. 25:41 (Someone): I just wanted to know if I can put it down. Now how many? 25:43 Angelique: Does it have sucuk? 25:45 AD: [laughs] Oh Angelique! 25:47 EI: Five or ten minutes 25:49 AD: Ten minutes? 25:51 (Someone): Okay. 25:52 AD: Oh my God. 25:52 RZ: It is okay, we already have a lot of people over. 25:55 AD: – Oh wow. 25:55 RZ: Do not worry about it, we like prepare their lunch for us. We are a big family so two, three people does not affect. 26:05 AD: Yeah, I know, oh wow. 26:06 RZ: Yeah about that, um, like people were complaining about the like (aadi) normal people they said “all these years we were fighting for Kurdistan now that we have it, now our heads they are fighting for nothing.” If your relatives, your brothers or father or husband was killed in that war, it would be very painful because it was over nothing. Before it was for a big reason for Kurdistan the big Kurdistan which every Kurdish people dreamt about the big Kurdistan, and now it is for nothing, just for seat to be more president, have more money have more control; that does not mean anything for normal people, it was painful very angry people about this war. 27:04 AD: Yeah, unfortunately. So, let us hurry up then. 27:09 EI: Another turning point I think is after, like it ended in 1995 or (19)96, right. 27:17 AD: No, I think she says 1998. 27:20 RZ: Yeah because then PKK’s thing too. I think in 1998 both Barzani and Talabani they came here to the White House and they had negotiated things and set out some like agreement. Yes. 27:40 EI: Okay and second turning point is like 2004, (20)03, (20)04, the second gulf war. 27:47 AD: The second Gulf War, I watched that on TV as well, I did. 27:51 RZ: Then I just went to college and we again run away the big cities. 28:05 AD: Oh! You ran away again? 28:07 RZ: This time old people, because they said Saddam is gonna anyway be over his time and there is gonna be another Halabja, chemical bombings again. So, people were very afraid of that cities were emptied. 28:38 AD: How long did you stay? 28:40 RZ: For a month. This time. 28:43 AD: Because war itself, you know like going up north happens like in two days I mean you just watch, like American soldiers are going and it was that but finding Saddam took a little bit longer and- 28:53 RZ: And I remember we all ran to some village where we had relative in there and because all the news were in Arabic there were a lot of people and I was the only one who knew Arabic I was sitting and translating like for them, yeah. 29:09 AD: Yeah, so nobody- your father knows- 29:12 RZ: My father, it was like in villages women sit in separate 29:18 AD: That is right- 29:19 RZ: Yeah, there were young women, older women of my mother’s age and older, so I was the only one who knew Arabic, always translating. Old ladies would wake me up at six o’clock and would tell me what is going on just translate for us. 29:42 EI: On TV? 29:43 RZ: On TV yes. 29:44 EI: Have you watched the Turtles can fly? 29:47 RZ: Yes, I watched that it is a very nice- 29:50 EI: You should definitely watch it- 29:51 AD: It is, what is it? 29:52 EI: It is about the camps like after the war- 29:57 AD: O really? 29:58 RZ: It is about that time. 30:00 AD: I will watch it- 30:01 EI: I will send you it is on Netflix. 30:05 AD: I do not have Netflix. 30:06 EI: You can find it on You tube as well. 30:08 AD: Okay, you send me the link, I will watch it. So, you were away for a month then went back to the city. 30:16 RZ: We went back yea, and all the college, it was March again and all the schools and college were closed for that time then, even when we went back it did not start right away- 30:33 AD: So, life just- how long did you guys wait? 30:36 RZ: I would say for two months all the things were frozen like no work no school. 30:47 AD: And then it went back to— 30:49 RZ: And then it opened again in May we did some tests, some people past some not- 30:59 AD: But this time it was not as bad? 31:00 RZ: It was not, it was not as bad no. 31:04 AD: And then things got better after the war? 31:09 RZ: Yeah, and this time in this war 2004 people in Kurdistan were resting. Now is the time for the Kurdish in the other region, Saddami Region in the middle and south of like in Mosul and Baghdad. Kurds ran away from those places it was very hard for them because they were Kurds living in those areas it was very unsafe for them it was so hard like I have a cousin lived in there, my father’s cousin, they have I mean kids at my age, they were working in the universities some students, they could not go to school any more or go to work. They were target by terrorists. 32:01 AD: I see. 32:02 RZ: Especially they could not send their daughter because they would kidnap them and you that is very bad, would bring very bad reputation for the whole family- 32:17 AD: When did it become- like safe? Is it safe now? 32:22 RZ: Even now, I call my cousin in there I talk with their daughter as I said they are my age, older than me, younger than me. It is still not very safe. It is not nice, it is not like Kurdistan. 32:39 AD: What do you mean it is not like Kurdistan, you mean before the first war? 32:48 RZ: For example, they cannot shop in after noon, they can only shop from 11 to 4 o’clock. Like only day time. 32:57 AD: In Duhok? 32:58 RZ: No in Mosul and Baghdad. 33:03 AD: I am asking about Kurdistan and I am like why isn’t it safe? 33:13 EI: They are controversial areas like Kirkuk and Mosul they cannot decide which part should take over- 33:13 AD: Yes, no those areas but in Duhok? 32:21 RZ: Duhok is more freedom than here. Is very, very safe. 33:23 AD: How often do you go back home? 33:26 RZ: When I came here I had to wait for three years to be American citizen. So, after three years in 2011 I went back. This year in summer we gonna visit them I guess. 33:45 AD: Your parents come here? 33:46 RZ: They cannot it is very hard to get visa to come here. 33:50 AD: Really? 33:51 RZ: No, they cannot, I waited because we had our marriage and engagement, my husband had to apply for my paper as a spouse. And I waited two years to come here. 34:06 AD: How about your siblings? 34:08 RZ: They cannot, no one can come here. It is very hard. 34:12 AD: So, do you miss your family? 34:14 RZ: I miss them a lot, when I first came here like for one year completely I would not sleep one night before I cry. It was very hard 34:27 AD: You are close to your family. 34:31 RZ: Especially I was the older one and I was friend with my mother with my father I miss that a lot. 34:40 AD: I have a question which is separate from all that. So, you have your degree than you married you came here, if you did not come here, if you did not marry right away? Would you work? 34:53 RZ: I would work yeah. 34:55 AD: But here, are you considering working? 35:00 RZ: When I came here first I considered like transferring my degree and all of that, and I started taking ESL classes in BCC to improve my English, in order to one company to hire me I have to speak some English at least. 35:20 AD: – Yeah, Yeah. 35:21 RZ: - and then after one semester I got pregnant with my first one, my daughter and I had a lot of complication with pregnancy, I had to on bed rest for her. I had her prematurely she had the NICU for two months I was very busy with her. She was born in 27 weeks and I was very busy with her. So, I had to take care of her all the time because she was very little. She was two pounds and five ounces. No one can believe that, she is a miracle. 35:59 AD: – Yeah, yeah. 36:00 RZ: - and then I got pregnant with my other one. I was not planning and then I was like surprised and it was even worse in complication with pregnancy, I had to sit like rest all the time. My mother in-law and my sister in-laws they took care of my daughter for three months until I had my Ismael, and then it was two kids I could not do anything. Then I had my other one and now I am like I am no having enough sleep- 36:37 AD: You are only twenty-nine years old right? 36:39 RZ: Yes. 36:40 AD: You are still young. 36:43 RZ: Yeah, but I want to again do something- 36:46 AD: you can, you are still young. Yeah. 36:49 RZ: Sometimes I get very mad because of that. It is hard when you study especially engineering is so hard. In my country is so hard to pass in engineering, I spent my whole life, I was like only caring about school, that kind of girls- 37:09 AD: That is okay, you are still very young. You can do it and especially in this country, there is no age, seriously- 37:18 RZ: That is true, right. And now sometime I get very frustrated because I think about all that hard work I did and now I am not doing anything only staying at home and very miss my parents very much and my siblings. Sometime I get very stressed because of all that feeling and then, it gets better. 37:39 AD: I think you can do it later on. 37:42 RZ: I think it is very hard for people in my age to come here, twenty-five years old, you would accomplish a lot of thing in your life and you just ready to do, go on, continue and then when you come here you have to start all over again. 38:01 AD: Yeah. 38:01 RZ: And Zhiman’s sister she married her husband, he is from Kurdistan too and he studied engineering too, but he came here a lot before me. He studied engineering now he is struggling, he was thirty years old when he came here. It is very hard for him, he is struggling with English. 38:28 AD: Oh yeah, I can understand that. 38:31 RZ: It is very hard, you have to start learn another language and to deal with new- 38:40 AD: Yeah, he needs to do it and then other, it is not easy you know, well at least especially not your case, but the others who came in 1996, you know that starvation, you know life was not safe also at least you are safe here, you have food but it is not easy, I mean I came here you know it is not easy. I understand- 39:08 RZ: There is a quote would say “when you leave your country, you would not have another homeland.” It is like that, now this is a better place right. There is more opportunity, better system, everything, better health care system, better education system, but now you miss your family that is very- 39:34 AD: I do not know a better education, easier education. 39:38 RZ: I would say easier, yeah, and more opportunity to work. 39:43 AD: Yeah, but there are difficulties here in this country too, definitely 39:47 RZ: Yes, Definitely. 39:51 AD: And your case you came here after you got married so- 39:56 RZ: Especially it is harder for men because they have to work they cannot stay at home. It was easier for me, I can stay home, my husband work- 40:06 AD: So, how did you make, was a traditional way? Your marriage like did they ask your opinion? 40:13 RZ: Yes, like I said we knew each other we are cousins. And my husband he asked me before. I did not tell my mother. His mother came with him. He said I just wanna ask you I do not want any families effect on your decision I am asking you this and take time and think about it. If you said yes, then I am gonna tell my mother. It was yeah, it was our decision. 40:55 AD: So, it was not traditional. 40:57 RZ: No, it is not. Traditional marriage is not common anymore- 41:02 AD: No? 41:03 RZ: No. It was like I would say sixty years before now. There is no any other traditional marriage or arrangement. 41:17 AD: I see. Things have changed. 41:20 RZ: Changed a lot. You would here about a lot of bad stories about arranged marriages, still hard, I mean if parents pick someone for you and you have to live with them and you do not like them that is not good. We are very happy that those bad tradition about marriage and those stuff changed. Before like in my mother’s time, when she was young, her parents did not let her to go to school. They let their son not her. Now there is no such traditions too. 42:01 AD: You know what, I noted that. And the, remember I was saying that, I notice that is why I am thinking because your father is a teacher that has a big effect. I noticed that when we interview with others it is like girls do not go to school, boys go get their education. 42:20 RZ: Exactly, and now, for now still my mother have that pain because her father did not let her to go to school. That is very hard. But now, like luckily there is nothing like that. 42:36 AD: That is good. Erdem do you have anything because we told them ten minutes and it is- 42:44 EI: No, I am- I think, do you want to add something? 42:48 RZ: No. I said everything 42:50 EI: Last think what you think about your country, about Kurdistan? Like just your feelings. RZ: I am very happy about Kurdistan the way it is now. I mean it is very safe, it is very nice place. We just hope for our leaders, people who run the country to take care more of people, poor people. And I am very sad that there is a lot of poor people when you walk in Kurdistan you would see a lot of see elderly women sitting on the streets- 43:35 EI: Still? 43:36 RZ: Yes still. 43:37 AD: Begging money. 43:39 RZ: Begging money. They have newborn on their laps under the sun, I mean it is so heart-braking. And you would see a lot of kids; five to eight years old to ten years old like selling bags or polishing shoes it is so hard to see those kids, yeas it is very. I used to walk from my home to college; during our walking distance I would always see those people. It is always heart-breaking for me. 44:29 AD: Yeah. Okay so, I just need to do the consent form, so you want- thank you so much that was – (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rondic Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d9c14228ef5c4cb7953ff97e54c45f4.mp3 ed031f9c5344f1aa96441ed73b0b8b60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cahcefile=ZekiTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview 22 February 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zeki Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:39 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Zeki was born in the city of Duhok in Iraqi Kurdistan and fled to the United States in 1996. He holds an associate’s degree in Marketing from SUNY Broome and he currently resides with his wife and three kids in Binghamton, NY. Keywords Kurdistan; Duhok; Refugee; Kurdish Culture; Muslim; Kurdish celebrations; Broome Community College; Binghamton Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Zeki Taha Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 22 February 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 EI: Yes, start with your name and surname, it is Zeki? 0:08 ZT: Zeki Taha. 0:09 EI: Yeah, when you born? 0:11 ZT: 1978. 0:12 EI: 1978. 0:14 ZT: Yes. July 1st, (19)78. 0:16 EI: Ok, you are Kurd and Muslim Sunni? 0:20 ZT: Muslim, yes. 0:21 EI: Sunni Kurd, ok. Marital status? 0:24 ZT: Married, three kids. 0:25 EI: Oh! Maşallah. Married with three kids. Ok, so how about your siblings and brothers, siblings? 0:36 ZT: Four to four, four brothers and four sisters. 0:39 EI: You are the- 0:40 ZT: The oldest one. 0:42 EI: Oldest one, and you are totally eight, nine? 0:44 ZT: I think ten because I have parents because four and four, yes. 0:48 EI: Okay, and what is your education level? 0:53 ZT: Associate degree with Marketing Management Sale. 0:56 EI: Great, where did you get it? 0:58 ZT: Broome Community College. 1:00 EI: Ah okay, so you were here. 1:02 ZT: Yes. 1:03 EI: How many years you are here? 1:05 ZT: I have been here since (19)97 so it is like fifteen, sixteen years right now since (19)96 we are out, the end of (19)96. 1:13 EI: When did you come here? 1:15 ZT: I think I came to the States in (19)97. 1:20 EI: 1997. Okay, great. You were in high school that time, or no? 1:26 ZT: I think I was in high school but I did not finish it because I was still seventeen years old; sixteen or seventeen years old when I came to this country. 1:32 EI: Actually let us start with your childhood, maybe we will come to that part later… How old the childhood before the school and do you remember anything about that? First thing the family and the small city or village, you were from Duhok right? 1:49 ZT: Duhok yes. 1:50 EI: Village of Duhok or the city? 1:52 ZT: The city- 1:53 EI: City of Dohuk. So how was the life, do you remember the childhood? 1:58 ZT: For us to be honest for the us it was normal because our parents did not tell us exactly how they were living, what kind of life they were living, the did not tell us exactly how bad it was , because when you are a kid you do not know exactly- 2:14 EI: They did not show you if they had a bad… Okay. 2:16 ZT: They did not show you the bad, you know the image, but when you grow up a little bit, little by little, day by day or year by year, now you learn more about life over there, because you do not have that kind of freedom, like the freedom you want to have because I think, I remember- 2:36 EI: What do you mean by freedom? 2:38 ZT: Freedom because Saddam Hussein knew you were Kurd and you know you got to be number two in that country. 2:45 EI: I mean you personally faced with it or? 2:49 ZT: What happened right now when you are a kid because you do not travel a lot you have to go with your parents and our parents you know they did not talk about it that much because they knew inside they were burning but they were scared to say something and somebody heard something from them because I am a kid I do not know exactly what is right and what is wrong, so if I tell somebody oh my parents does not like this government and you know it will happen to my parents they are going to be killed. 3:17 EI: I think it is a general problem because the other interviews they also said that if they told you something your family and you go to school and tell your teacher it will create problem you do not know what to happen- 3:32 ZT: Yes. See even right now like for example son is going to say something he does not know exactly if he is going to take me as a hard way or bad way so he is a kid he is a clean-minded, so he is going to say it, that is why our parents- 3:47 EI: You were aware that something was going on, or something is wrong but- 3:52 ZT: Yeah, when we got older and things like not when you travel, we see all these checkpoints and you say to yourself am I Iraqi citizen so why I have to be checked before I go out of the city? 4:03 EI: Aha, were you travelling a lot or your family? 4:10 ZT: No what happened because for example if you go for a trip or if you go for example for a school trip, like they take you from here to Syracuse. 4:23 EI: Okay. 4:23 ZT: So, if you go from Duhok and Duhok probably has one, two, two main gates; one coming from the city of Mosul, Nineveh and the other coming from Zawita, you go outside of Duhok. So, this is the main door, what happened right now if you go outside of these gates they have checkpoints and that checkpoints in the cities, they have like undercover people you know checking before there was no, what they call it, it is not like here it is not volunteering you going to enjoy the military, so they were asking from this age to that age has to join the military, if you not going to go and tomorrow if they see you, you have to had a good reason why you are not in the military otherwise they will take you may be killed or you may be in jail for the rest of your life. 5:17 EI: Saddam like he accepted the Kurdish army, right? I mean got the Kurds to the army, even if was. 5:27 ZT: Yes because what happened, they were asking for the age, and you had to go and fight, they did not care if you were Kurd or no but you just go fight, because he wanted to be in power you know and they do not want you to be you know to become like fight with Peshmerga, you know the Kurdish army that time and what happened right now because the people was so frustrated so many people become Peshmerga because I know if- 5:56 EI: Were there any Peshmerga within your life or extended family or in the region or what was the Peshmerga I mean? 6:06 ZT: Me personally I did not see Peshmerga until like late because we were young, and Peshmerga usually did not come to the cities and even my father knew some of them or my uncle or my cousin, they were scared to tell the United States because we were young like I told you, you had to be very careful what you are saying because there are fresh memory they going to say it. 6:31 EI: I mean you knew that there are Peshmergas but they were not in the cities? 6:35 ZT: Yes, we knew like when we got older like I do not say I do not exactly remember what age was it we knew there was a Peshmerga we know there was like they fight in the mountains like outside of the cities because what happened right now in this area was better for them to come to the cities because cities you know is dangerous because there is no places for you to hide so in a mountain there is no many people live over there so if you like a fifty or thousand whatever how many there, as soon as do your mission after that you going to be, each of you guys going to go separate way that way is going to be hiding, that was going to be harder for the military to go find those people but if you go to the city and face to face to fight, we knew it and they knew it because they only have like a small weapons like AK 47 or these weapons they are not going to defense yourself against tanks or with a plane that is why they were doing this and they were very strong minded like they were fighting for something they knew something is going to happen as today like the freedom that is why our leaders and everybody saying thank you to those Peshmerga sacrificed their lives; whoever got died, whoever got injured, whoever living still right now we are thanking them because we are seeing the best of Kurdistan so far because now I can talk I can talk to you, you can come to my place, I can go to your place nobody is forcing you to become anybody you do not want to be… like there are colleges open right now, you can attend any college you want, you can go to any major you want, you can be whoever you want; business man, you going to go to the military, this is your choice right now, before you did not have these kind of choices… 8:13 EI: Like a normal country you mean- 8:15 ZT: Exactly, right when we go right now to me this is why I said to you that day we were happy and I am proud to say I am a Kurd because our people are doing good, imagine if they were doing bad you know like the reputation is not that good in nationwide you know they talk about the, you say oh! I am sorry I am going to be embarrassed if I say I am this part or this place and I’m with guy because now you are proud because if you look at some of these Kurds like if you are American or if you Turkish or you are this, if your culture is doing good, you are proud to say I am this- 8:50 EI: You mean do not good like if they suppressed your people or there was no freedom. 8:55 ZT: No because these is no freedom like if you look at it right now, if you look at some of these countries like they have dictators, they are embarrassed to say I am from this country, not because of people they are embarrassed, if I say the people going to look at me in different eyes, oh! you are with this kind of group even if the people have nothing to do with it. 9:14 EI: I mean you are happy to say that you are I am Kurd. 9:18 ZT: I am Kurd you know I live in this place yes. 9:22 EI: So, how the childhood, do you have any special memories about childhood with your family I mean it will be about religious day, or Eid or I mean doing Ramadhan how was- 9:34 ZT: The best thing to be honest like even right now we miss those days. 9:38 EI: Maybe bad memories… or good memories that affected t you or you remember always from your childhood. 9:44 ZT: Yes, what happened right now because in Iraq the time even if you make money you are scared to do anything and parents are so afraid to say or do something because they know somebody is watching them or somebody is going to do something, So I think it was not I do not know. 10:00 EI: These are the nineteen eighties right you are talking about? 10:02 ZT: Yes probably eighties, eighty eight, eighty nine, I am not saying eighties because I was born like (19)78, (19)79 so imagine probably I am like ten or eleven years old, so one day I was telling my parents like my mum specially do not wake me up because I do not have shoes to go to Eid like to go celebrate, what happened right now because that time my father was working hard but the thing is right now. 10:30 EI: What was his job? 10:32 ZT: His job was like construction, you know they taking tanks, those trucks you know they taking like dirt from this place to that place or taking some of the stuff they working for construction if they build the roads. 10:46 EI: Building? 10:46 ZT: No, the roads, you know right now you do not have other choices so you have to do this and that time was the construction was even dangerous than military because sometime you are facing close to your enemy because when you build, when you are trying build the roads, or bridge or something it is not safe. 11:04 EI: I mean what was the authority there Saddam or was there any Kurdish rule? 11:09 ZT: No, that time until 1991 the big explosion. 11:16 EI: It was the Iraqi Road. 11:18 ZT: Yes, the Iraqi road. 11:19 EI: I mean when they get their salary it was from Iraq. 11:23 ZT: Yes, everything was Iraq, no Iraq was until wherever the year Iraq was established until 1991 none of the Kurd controlled anything or everything was under the control of Saddam Hussein and he was running the whole country. And your liked or do not like it you had to follow that law. So that is why I am saying right now…. 11:43 EI: I mean it is reality for now maybe it is weird but for that time it is reality you had to survive. 11:49 ZT: I tell everybody right now I do not argue; sometimes say why these people they do not do this because you do not know exactly what situation these people are in. 11:59 EI: Yeah exactly. 12:00 ZT: because you do not know exactly if they are living a good life or bad life, they live in a dangerous life or safe life so you cannot judge a person just looking at them an say why this guy not doing this, he should speak up for himself. 12:12 EI: Exactly 12:13 ZT: because we saw these things and we saw so many Kurds speaking up and they got killed and that was not just easy like I said to you our leader was saying we thought, the only friend of the United States is the mountains because everybody having these things because their head, because Peshmerga when they were fighting. 12:32 EI: It is so common among all Kurds I think. 12:37 ZT: Yes exactly if you talk to anybody they were afraid for their life even if you become part of their military or somebody, you are afraid because if one day even by mistake or I do not like you and go to that place wherever the cop was, whatever the type was if I go to them and say this guy doing this even if you are not doing it just because I do not like you, you would disappear, they going to beat you, your family; one of my cousin he was educated, really knowledgeable and working because he had no other choice you have to be in the military, so one day, because he was on vacation he was trying to go home with his family and may be one person they did not like him because maybe his friend for example you are from this part I am from that part, Like Arab and Kurd for example say that person he know, this guy is a knowledgeable person and he knows, he is really good and he is said something to his boss “oh these guys doing something bad what he is doing, he is making IDs and Passport and taking the Kurds outside the Iraq and sending them to other country” say for example Europe or going to Iran and from Iran they are travelling to Europe and this guy trying to come to home with his family and what happened right now a couple hour later they went to his house in Baghdad and taking a shower and leave to come to Duhok and they too they say your general or your boss or this person want to see you, and he said why because I saw him probably a couple of hours ago, so he went that minute and disappeared like for a year, his mum and dad and hour family none of them like our parents nobody knew what exactly where he was, if he is alive, in a prison. 14:39 EI: Even you did not know about him? 14:41 ZT: Nobody until they say probably like way-way back, I do not know nine months, eleven months, almost a year they got a letter saying if you want to see your son, he is in that prison, Abu-Ghraib in Baghdad or Basra, whatever the place was. 14:57 EI: It is so famous Abu-Ghraib. 14:58 ZT: One of the worst probably prison in the world and he did not know exactly what was going on and his family does not know what was going on and they were trying to go and see him and talk to him and he could not say anything that minute, but right now he said you see the worst beating in your life, whatever you imagine in your head like whatever you are going to be having dream about is reality in there, the worst like life you ever have like they torture you, they did not give you right food and the room was like probably eight by eleven or smaller room you can ever have for four, five people, if couple of them sit I do not think the other person can be sitting or he cannot lay your feet to make them comfortable and you have to go to the bathroom right over there so you would see all the worst thing in that room because you have to pee or like whatever happen is in that small room it is not like you have to be comfortable, or is going to be a separate bathroom or this or food is going to be one of these food you going to enjoy it, so the life was miserable he said that. He said that is why when they think after a couple of years and Saddam Hussein was you know letting some people you know go out because they had nothing on their names as soon as he got out from the prison and he ran, he went to Iran and I believe he went to Europe and he said I am not going to come to Iraq until this government is gone from the power because he saw so many torturing… Like the torture you even cannot imagine what kind of torturing like in your life because he said I saw everything. That is why I say right now and our parents knew this like my father knew it because he was part of our family too but he did not tell the United States, he did not say anything to young people because they knew if they going to say something the whole public village, the whole people going to be dying. 17:09 EI: So, you are telling about the memory or the story of Eid, you said- 17:15 ZT: Yes, so I told my mum do not wake me up because I do not have shoes and if you do not have new shoes. 17:19 EI: Was it because you were the financial problem or- 17:25 ZT: What happened, finance problem because they do not give you, even they give you some money like Iraq the rich, imagine Iraq was so rich nobody knew how much money Iraq can make would only deeds not just gas or oil and these things Iraq was so rich but the thing is Saddam Hussein knows one day Kurds is going to be running by their own government, he knew it that is why until like 1998 or 1999 the Iraqi part like Kurdistan did not have an airport, they did not have any infrastructure like a good road, like anything, why because Saddam Hussein knew one day this place or these cities are going to be out of his hands, he knew it because majority were Kurds that is why he was doing what they call it invasion, like Ta’reeb [Arabization] like what happened right now, this is why he was moving Kurds from north, he was taking them to the south and imagine you live in a mountain in a snow area like beautiful weather, you are not used to live in a desert, so they took a lot of, even I think a couple our families they went from because there was no choice, so they moved them from the northern. 18:54 EI: You mean displacement? 18:55 ZT: Yes, because he wanted to change the demographic of the whole country. 18:59 EI: What was the reason? 19:00 ZT: Because he did not want majority of a place to be Kurds, because what he was doing. 19:06 EI: What was the demographic situation of Duhok? 19:08 ZT: Duhok what happened right now there were Kurd like Muslim, Christian, Jewish, you mentioned they have all these ethnics and religion. 19:20 EI: But the majority were Kurd? 19:22 ZT: Majority was Kurd, even some of them like our friends were like Christians or other ethnics, me personally I thought they might be Muslim, why because they speak the same language, they were- 19:32 EI: All were Arabs right? 19:34 ZT: They were Kurds. No, they were speaking Kurdish but they had nothing in Kurdi lie you cannot speak or I have any paper like in office, if you need something has to be done with Arabic. 19:41 EI: With your family your language was Kurdish. 19:46 ZT: Kurdish. 19:47 EI: In street it was Kurdish but in school or state institution was Arabic. 19:53 ZT: School majority was Arabic like you had to, I think I remember I think was only one class of Kurdish and that Kurdish was not even like a right thing sometimes have some letters you know, word in Arabic so basically if you have like six classes, four of them is going to be Arabic like in fifth grade we had one class of English and we had one class probably Kurdish or not, sometimes in some classes like some like I think in elementary school there was not even one class in Kurdish. So, everything was Arabic. So we had to learn no matter if you like it or do not like it. 20:34 EI: So It was Education language, all state institution… were there any school that teach Kurdish or Kurdish school. 20:45 ZT: No. From one end to another end in Iraq everything was, if you were under the territory of government, because if you look at village of here it is under the Peshmerga, this not counted but the majority of Iraq was under control of Saddam Hussein, so everything had to be like Arabic school, because one of the interviewee said he got his education in Kurdish school, it was in Erbil I think. That is you said it was under Peshmerga control. 21:15 ZT: Yes-yes. 21:16 EI: So that is why but the majority was Arabic. 21:19 ZT: Arabic yes. Even couple of our cousin they got their education, they got their really good degrees but because they were Kurd, they were not allowed to go to their major, because they considered us as a second like in Iraq, if you … like in the United States right now nobody knows who is number one who is number two, we all think we are American and we have right to do whatever we want. 21:46 EI: So, you said there were Christian, Jewish and Arabs as well. So, what was your relation with them? I mean were there any differences or did you know which one is Arab or is Christian? 22:03 ZT: Most of them were Christian. 22:04 EI: I mean they have to be in any problem but- 22:06 ZT: No Christians even until now I think one of the best place for all ethnic to live is Kurdistan, because until now I have not heard any, sometimes you see like you know when we have four-five million or ten million people, when you have five families or ten family, one family is going to be bad, and one family is going to be good, if you have like five brothers, not all five brothers going to like have master degree on for example like become engineer, maybe one of them be engineer, maybe one of them be a doctor, maybe one of them be a teacher, so in family we have this. So imagine if you have like a four five million people, you going to have like one bad person, can I consider that as a whole nation is bad, so what happened right now as a Kurd to be honest with you we have like neighbors like Christians the Ramadhan time when we were fasting, they even do not eat, they were eating, a couple of times like my father told them like our neighbor, said why you guys do not respect to your month of Ramadhan, and we say wow loot at right now, they respecting not eating in front of the United States because of Ramadhan, so they were so noise we were like going to their home like knowing was there celebration like any celebration, was like a Muslim celebration, Christian whatever we go congratulate them, make them comfortable whatever is going to be, a birthday party or Eid or I mean Christmas, whatever was it Muslim people go check with their neighbor when was a different celebration for Muslims they were coming to the United States and saying happy or this or that. So what happened right now is joyful like you would not even sometimes like I told you a couple of my friends honestly I did not know exactly if they were Christian or Muslim because I am not saying because if you pray that is between you and you God, so you go to that room, but like when we were playing soccer or playing any games, nobody say oh! you are from this part of from this ethnic or from this religion, you have to go with… No, we all play, we all having fun because especially the kids what you have in your mind, having fun is the only thing you have. 24:26 EI: What about the teachers? Were they all Arabs? 24:28 ZT: Teachers, no most of them I think like to me probably majority of them were Kurd but they were speaking Arabic too because most of the classes, like they were talking like I talk to you right now I can say start like in Kurdish, but when you go to the subjects it had to be Arabic because history, geography you know math. 24:51 EI: You mean out of class you talk Kurdish. 24:54 ZT: Sometimes we like couple of my cousins and friends we spoke. 24:58 EI: What about teachers? 25:00 ZT: Teachers sometimes they speak Kurdish but like I told you if they go to subject was Arabic… 25:05 EI: Where they afraid or something? 25:08 ZT: See that is why I am saying right now, probably, and that is why they could not say anything. 25:13 EI: I mean what about in Education in history, did they ever about the Kurds in class I mean were there the name of the Kurd in the book or something? 25:23 ZT: No, Nothing. That is why we say right now the history sometimes like I told everybody do not listen to the history, because history for example I am going to right history I am going to talk about only Kurd, so they were doing history about Iraq, how they did this, they did that. 25:40 EI: The national history. 25:41 ZT: Pretty much yes. There was no a single name about the Kurds, how they lived, where they were, how many are there- 25:51 EI: You know that there are but in the book. 25:54 ZT: Yes because like I said when sometimes I go see my grandfather or like this, in front of the United States they are happy, you know they were smiling you know, I knew he like I am saying to myself right now I can say it right now inside probably they were burning because they would not speak up, they would not say something that never said it before but that time was what happened right now because if they say something and we were kids we could have probably go to see my friends I come to you and I say something to you and you went to say something to the other kids you know and from there they going to come in and my family will probably be in trouble, even because I said it I am saying I am ten years old, and imagine right now I am ten years old you are not supposed to be listening sometimes to ten years old what he saying or she saying. 26:48 EI: Okay so in 1988, (19)86 you were going to school, right? 26:53 ZT: Yes. 26:54 EI: Okay. So actually, it was the bad time for the Kurds as I know, yeah. 26:59 ZT: Yes. 26:59 EI: So, I mean there were political instability and how were you affected in school I mean were you aware of that? What about for example if there was a bombing or something, were you talking about it in school or you teacher? 27:15 ZT: No, because like I told you parents did not speak or did not mention anything in front of their kids, like I told you they were afraid to say, like I said to you right now I can say my father, my grandfather, my uncles probably they were burning that day, because they heard so many things and they could not speak up, even to you or to me, for example. What happened right now like I said to myself they have right because when you have this kind of government if a kid says something and you destroy the whole family, then they were right that time not to say anything, they did not speak or did not talk, why? Because what if I said something, because maybe I am a kid you know, I do not know there is going to be hurting me or making me go to bed, what if I told my friend oh! my father yesterday he was saying you know what Peshmerga or this or was in this mountain or they were doing this, and what the other kids say, oh! you know this guy was talking about this thing yesterday about his father. So from there, you may be put your family in danger. 28:27 EI: What about your teachers, I mean did they imposed the Saddam? 28:30 ZT: No. 28:30 EI: They did not talk. 28:31 ZT: No. Because like I said even if I was a teacher. 28:36 EI: I mean they did not say Saddam is great or something. 28:41 ZT: Oh! yes-yes. What happened right now. 28:43 EI: They do not have to criticize it but I mean for example. 28:46 ZT: My friend if you had no picture of Saddam Hussein in your house and they come in and they do not see a picture of Saddam Hussein in your house, I mean you do not like him, so my friend for example what do you mean I do not like him. Say for example I am living in this country I am living under the rule of law but if you do not have his picture in the wall in your home, and you do not know exactly when they going to be walking to your house and just having some excuses oh I am looking for this, but probably they heard something yes they want some excuses, they come in, oh! I do not see any pictures, why? Oh! now what type of excuse you going to have, because now you got to be really scared, because if you do not have a picture of him, so look at it right now, you are living in the country, do you have any president of the United States picture on your wall or on your phone? No. 29:39 EI: If you want. 29:40 ZT: If you wanted you can put it, if you do not want it you do not have to say I like this guy or I want this guy, so in Iraq was so bad like if you do not have a picture of him on the wall in your home, you have no right…So, this is your probably you can do whatever you want, guess what! No, still the government warns you. So, you have to follow, listen do whatever they want you to do. That is how bad it was. So imagine why the teachers going to be speaking because they know their life is in danger too, I am not saying most of teachers probably were so much hurting like burning inside, they wanted to speak, but the thing is right now they have like families, brothers, sisters you know they do not want to like I say why I am going to speak because if I said something, it is not like in this country like in the United States if you do something bad, if you are eighteen or above, they going to take you, you have to defend yourself like they are not going to take your father, your mother, your sister, oh this guy did something, we going to punish you. So, if say over there if you did something even if you ran away, they are not going to say, or we going to wait for that person we going to look for that person because he did something bad not his family, if you did something and you run away, your father, your mother, your sister, your brother probably your village is in trouble. That is why we were saying do not do it. And so many time people did it anyway. But because what happened right now when you fighting a government size of Saddam Hussein like they say you have so many undercovers and so many bodyguards you will not even believe it and right now sometimes if you see it they have doubled, his son has doubled, he has doubled and when you have these things you do not know exactly if you have the right person if they are the right Saddam Hussein or if they are number two Saddam Hussein. So, if you attack even if you say injure him, no he is injured but he is not the right injured because the right one is over their sitting. So, you going to come in and destroy, that is why what happened right now in some of the cities in Halabja like even in south right now like they got martyrs in the street nobody can speak, why? Because of oh- They did something, they were against the government. So this is what happened right now in northern Iraq right now they know is bad teachers knew this is not right but each person was trying to save him or her life from something happen to their life or their family’s life. 32:27 EI: Okay. So how many years did you get education in Duhok? 32:30 ZT: I finished elementary school. 32:33 EI: How long it took? 32:35 ZT: what happened right now the system was different, six years. Because we had six classes from one you had to go to all the way to, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade you had to go sixth and you graduate you going to go to middle school, then the high school. 32:52 EI: So, you finished high school. 32:54 ZT: I finished high school, because I think it was the last year for my high school or middle school. 32:02 EI: You finished six years and then three years middle school. 33:07 ZT: No I was of my last year of middle school. 33:10 EI: Okay, how long it took to middle school? Three years? 33:13 ZT: Middle school took three years, but the thing is right now why we did not finish it because twice we had to run for our life. Like you know. 33:21 EI: Yeah, we will come to that. 33:23 ZT: So, what happened right now because when you go you miss that year, you have to come back, the system, is not like over here, if you go to class right now, and if you have classes if you fail one of them, they are not going to say okay you have to sit over here. 33:37 EI: But normally in three years you can finish it. 33:40 ZT: Yes. 33:41 EI: Okay I got it. Were there a national day for- 33:45 ZT: Iraq yes but for Kurds no. 33:47 EI: No, yeah, of course. During the national days like they had a break I think, it was a holiday, national holiday or something, so what did you do in that day like in school were there any program or celebration or something? 34:04 ZT: In school pretty much I do not think there was any program in school, the reason honestly we do not know exactly why because they had no money may be they were scared, may be they did not know exactly what kind of program they going to have, like because majority of them were Kurd and like I told you there was a number two under the Arabs in Iraq, that is why our leader are saying right now we do not want to be number two in our own country, so I am not saying we have to be number one and they have to be number two, no. there have to be equality. Like however you want to for yourself, you have to accept it for me too. The way you want it, I want it too. SO I have to respect you, you have to respect me. The way you want to be respected, if you do not respect me, I am not going to respect you. So this is what I am saying right now, so it was national holidays pretty much you say I do not know, it was nothing like any activities or anything like this. 34:58 JT: In Saddam’s birthday I remember we were going on a march we liked him, they said okay on his birthday we had to do something special for him. 35:05 EI: For his birthday? 35:06 JT: His birthday. 35:07 ZT: It was like a holiday because Saddam Hussein anything related to the government was a holiday. 35:12 EI: Not establishment of Iraq, or something but his birthday of Saddam. Okay. 35:18 ZT: Because when you do a demonstration, when you go right now, if you become against say your high school, your school like BU, there is something you have like fifty students and you going to have some posters you going to demonstrate over there this is your own choice and the other kids choice or people choice or your friends or whoever with you this is their choice nobody force them to do something, in Iraq everything was forced, school, if they have like a demonstration going on, every school in the city had to take their students and say we like this government we love this person, we love this president, we love this, we love everything. Like when I remember like in 1991 when there was a war. 36:08 EI: Were there any slogans from that demonstrations? 36:11 ZT: Se what happened right now we were kids, like I was in middle school or elementary school, honestly we even afraid if I for example I try to hide somewhere and run, I say what if somebody sees me in the demonstration and you know what, and none you knew them no way. 36:32 EI: But all demonstrations were to support Saddam? 36:36 ZT: To support Saddam yeah. 36:37 EI: Were there any demonstration against him? 36:39 ZT: No-no. I do not think even in a dram we had a demonstration against Saddam Hussein. Even sometimes like I said our people suffered so much like Kurdish people especially, the Kurdish people suffered so much not just from these things or that things, from everything, right now you saying I hope the government give each person a million dollar make their life so much easier because I know, I am not saying the government give everybody but for million, forty million, twenty million whatever is there, but I am saying right now this is our government is doing so many things right now for the people, because they suffered so much mentally, physically, emotionally, economically we cannot even speak about that, because there was no economic, because if you were a businessman you could not have certain level of your business, you could not be rich, you have this level, you could not cross that level with that step, why? Because if you become richer than them, that government going to be scared, say oh! I am sorry. You have to stop or they going to come in… because why? There was no capitalism, so what happened right now you have no right, you make your money for example, you going to go have your business and, but you know you are not safe, let us put it this way, you know you are not safe, that is why everything was under the, what they call, the bubble, so you have like this, you cannot cross that, you like, sometimes we say, you live in a jail, it is a little bit open but is bigger than a jail, but it is a jail. You have to do this, you have to say this. 38:20 EI: For now, you are talking? 38:22 ZT: No I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time. For right now, look at right now, you can free market, you can do whatever want, you can go to any school you want, you can be who you want. It is open, what can of education you going to have. 38:32 JT: I want to mention one of your questions about you asked Kak Zeki, about you said you guys did anything daily at school; we had class usually, when the teacher was coming to class you had to stand up and say God bless Saddam Hussein, and many of us said my soul is free for his party. We always had to do this. 38:56 EI: The slogan was “My soul- 38:59 JT: “My soul is free for his party and he use it.” 39:03 EI: Do you remember it in Arabic? 39:05 JT: Yeah. 39:05 EI: Can you say it? 39:06 JT: When you stand up you say (Long Live Saddam Hussein) يعيش صدام حسين and when you sit you say … I do not know exactly because I forgot, when I was…… and the other thing every book they give it to government they had the front of the first page of the book it was Saddam’s picture. 39:31 EI: Okay. 39:31 JT: Yeah, I mean when you start the history, you have to start about who is Saddam and after that you go to all the detail of Arab, where the Arab came from. When you start the Geography you have to start with Iraq and neighboring Kurdistan and go down to all Arab countries. 39:45 EI: Was there any name of Kurdistan? 39:48 JT: No, at all. They called it north of Iraq, they called it shimal. 39:51 EI: Shimal? 39:52 JT: It is an Arabic word, shimal is an Arabic word. 39:56 EI: Does it mean north? 40:00 JT: It means north, I mean any word about Kurdish history. 40:04 EI: Okay. So, you during the 198s, 1988, 1989 and 1990 you were in Duhok right? 40:15 ZT: Yes. 40:15 EI: It was the worst time I think because of the Halabja. 40:21 ZT: What happened in 1988- 40:23 EI: Do you remember anything about that? 40:25 ZT: Because what happened like I said we just, what happened right now in (19)88 was the worst time because for the Kurdish people in general, because now they know they destroy a Kurd in general not because of their religion, not because of their different mentality, is because they are Kurd, that is why they were doing this, they were doing every aspect of things to make sure not for these people not to become successful, the Kurds, as a Kurd. So what happened right now I remember I think it was in 87 when my grandmother and her kids like my aunts and these they were living, because my uncles, couple of them they were living in I am not saying like they were living with the Peshmerga, they were living outside of the cities like it is not of the control of Saddam Hussein, they were living in a village and they do not like this system and my uncle was a Peshmerga and these things so what happened right now they came in and they took my other uncle said your brother is with Peshmerga they put him in jail and my grandmother any her kids, my aunts, they took them to outside the city, they drop them of like some places outside and said go from here. 41:53 EI: Okay. 41:53 ZT: And because my grandmother was living in that area, she knew and they had to walk I do not know how many miles because to be honest we do not know but it is probably an hour, and a half to walk from there to get the destination just to be a little bit free and not to be scared, so my uncle was in jail for like a year and plus because of one thing, he had not done anything, he was ins school, he was the top student in his school until now we say if he was not become like that, like Saddam Hussein did not take him, probably he would like become a doctor or an engineer, he was the best student, my father still saying right now, says we went to school one day to check on him you know how he is doing, the teacher said why you guys are here? Did we ask you guys to come here? We do not need you guys be here for him. That is how good he was, like he was the top of his class in school. But because what happened right now they put him in jail for one year and he had nothing to do with his brother over there. That is why I am saying the government was so bad, so what happened right now my father, I visited him a couple of times in jail- 42:59 EI: Your uncle? 43:00 ZT: My uncle- 43:01 EI: You visited him? 43:02 ZT: Yes. I visited him a couple of time in jail I mean guess what, the guard was so strong. 43:08 EI: Where was the jail, Baghdad? 43:10 ZT: No, it was outside Duhok probably 20 minutes from Duhok was called Simel. Soo, it was one of… what happened right now because he had not done anything wrong or he had not anything to harm the government, so they put him in a jail, one jail they say we not going to mention or not going to put him in jail for his life, they did not put any sentence on him and they said we going to put in jail. 43:43 EI: Was there any court, like they just put, take and put to jail, like there was no judgement or something or even- 43:55 ZT: No, there is no judge, even with the judge, the judge for example what a judge is going to do. He is guilty, permanent jail for his life. 43:55 EI: Okay. 43:55 ZT: So, there was nothing, so my uncle what happened right now. 43:57 EI: I mean there was no defense, right? 44:01 ZT: No, there was nothing, and even right now you know it you have not done do for example what happened right now they told my grandfather if you bring your other son back, they going to let him be free, so he has to stay in jail, and everybody told my grandfather go bring, and you know he was his father, my uncle, his father like in the village in Peshmerga, so they said go bring your other son home that way this son can be free, my grandfather said, are you guys crazy, if I go bring my other son back. 45:10 EI: Peshmerga guy… Okay. 45:11 ZT: And I guarantee you guys he will be next to him or they both going to be die. 45:12 EI: Okay. 45:12 ZT: So, I can lose one of my sons, I do not want to lose both of them. So, this is how my grandfather knew it. And he was not educated like have a master degree in politics but he saw and he was one of the smartest probably in our village, like we had a village probably three –four –five thousand people, they call it… He was really smart, and knowledgeable person and a lot of people went to say why did not you go and bring son just bring him, they want you to bring your son home, so they can let this guy go. Go be free. And my grandfather said, what you guys thinking, you really think I am going to bring my son and they going to let both of the go, I guarantee you if I bring him back they going to put him with him, both going to be die, and until a year and plus and one old lady Saddam Hussein came to Duhok and one old lady dancing in front of Saddam Hussein and she had something to tell him and she said you know what my son I do not know if he is still alive or not but my son is like age of that, like in prison, so with your power and your willing and your …. Mentioning all these beautiful names to Saddam Hussein, if you let my son go, I will be happy. And they said people over there this is Saddam Hussein’s word saying “If your son is alive, he will be free but if he is dead like they killed him, sorry for your loss” This is how is- 46:16 EI: Who was that woman? 46:18 ZT: I do not know she was an old lady that time living in Duhok and she was… you know- 46:25 EI: Kurd? 46:25 ZT: Kurd yeah, all Kurdish. 46:27 EI: Always came to visit Duhok? 46:29 ZT: What happened, Saddam Hussein sometimes came to cities just to go and cross that and go some places, have fun you know on vacation and she when he came in, sometimes you know he would stop in some places for five or ten minutes and that time she was doing that- 46:44 EI: She got a chance- 46:45 ZT: She got a chance you know and she said this is my son’s situation, so you let my son be free. And Saddam Hussein, the people was all there they were saying this was Saddam Hussein’s word: If he is still alive, he will be free, if the guard had killed him, sorry for your loss. So I do not know what happened if the son was free or he had got killed but among those people they say if there is nothing under your name like if you have not harmed the government, if you did not do, if you did not say anything about the government or the president or anything to do with the government we going to let them be freed, all these people in jail. So my uncle was one of them, and I think like kind of a week or so my father said do not stay in the city any more, go next to your brother, go see your brother, go and live with them. 47:44 EI: Okay, so you mentioned about displacement, like Saddam changed demography or something, did you affected with it, did your family affected by the demographic change, did you run away from the country or from bombing. 47:58 ZT: As my family, my father because what happened right now because my father was in the construction company, and construction is not like I mean, your work with like civilian company, you are working the government. So that time because my grandfathers both for them as a father’s side and mother’s side they were both close to the Peshmerga in the villages aside of the Duhok probably taking about an hour something like that driving, so they were under control of the pretty much Peshmerga was on control of the Saddam Hussein, you could come to the Duhok, but you would be scared like my uncle I think he got sick one day, I do not know he had to have a surgery I do not know was like liver or something like, I honestly do not even remember it was his father, it is like an hour from, if he come to Duhok it is like an hour, they took him to Iran because he was scared to come to Duhok, and if they find out where he live, why he is- 49:05 EI: As I understand like in that time Iran had good relations with Kurds, right? Because Iran was in conflict with Iraq- 49:13 ZT: Yes, what happened right now, the politician is all business, so the Kurd they just want somebody to be- 49:21 EI: You said when the Kurds wanted to leave the country they firstly went to Iran, and then to Europe or the United States- 49:21 ZT: What happened right now is that Turk, the Turkish border was harder because what happened right now the government controlled better like the Iraqi government because you had few spots and if you want to cross that mountain and this thing is not going to be safer because of a lot of animals, a lot of danger like wild animals going on, so Iran what happened because of the war, they did not like each other a lot and Saddam Hussein and the border was little bit longer than the Turkish borders so it was a little bit easier for people to cross the Iranian border than Turkish, because Turkey they had a couple of gates, pretty much were controlled by Saddam Hussein’s government, so how you going to say I am going to be running away from this country. So, this way was a little easier otherwise Turkey was easier to cross to go to Europe because Iran you had to go over there, they did not know exactly how- 50:28 EI: Do remember the Turkish state treatment to the Iraqi Kurds in that time like was it, will they provide you a way to run away from your country- 50:38 ZT: Any government they do not want to put themselves in other government’s business, so like I said if I am president of these country and you president of that country you going to say you know what we have to respect each other as a separate, so even Turkey knew right now how Iraq is that but because of the other countries not saying anything, the strongest countries, so right now Iran and Turk help us a lot, they open sometimes border for us to cross and to go over there, it was a good thing to be honest with you because imagine if they did not open their- 51:13 EI: Now you are talking about? 51:15 ZT: No, I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time like in 1991 when we, there was upraising happened like million, that is became huge news in the whole world, when the upraising happened- 51:27 EI: Do you remember when the upraising happened it was 1991? 51:29 ZT: Yes, I remember honestly, we walked I do not know I think for ten, thirteen days we walked like what happened right now. 51:39 JT: I want to mention this, Iran was more open with Kurdish people who live in, they are more open to the Kurds because they had a war with Saddam, it was easier to go Iran more than go to Turkey. Turkey that time it was I am not saying very relationship with Iraq, but they had a relationship with business because they never, I am not saying never, but they did not accept Kurdish refugee. 52:17 EI: And in that time Turkey like 1990s was the worst time for Turkey as well because like they were fighting against PKK… They had problem with their Kurds as well so. 52:26 JT: Iran was more open because if you looking at the fighter, each fighter, I mean the fighter has a party you know, the party and headquarters for all Kurdish parties were in Iran, none was in Turkey. If anybody or anyone wants go to have a medical problem they go to Iran. My father one of them, he was a fighter and he had a little bit small or problem for surgery, he could not drive one hour to go to the city of Duhok, he walk around or he had a horse probably arrive in ten days to Iran. 53:06 EI: Okay. You said you walked for twelve days, it was like you were running away from country or? 53:14 ZT: Yes, because what happened the city we run- 53:17 EI: You left Duhok? 53:18 ZT: Duhok. 53:19 EI: Why? 53:19 ZT: There was a car, because what happened right now in 1991 the war happened between Saddam Hussein and Kuwait and the united Nations, the thirty countries and the United States among them they said we have to do something you know, the government controlled a different country because Kuwait was a different country even they said. 53:40 EI: Yes, Saddam attacked the country in international power they tried to stop Saddam, so what the situation of the Kurds in that time? 53:48 ZT: The Kurds because what happened right now- 53:50 JT: The upraising, after upraising, Saddam coming back- 53:54 EI: Saddam attacked Kuwait and Kurds uprised, Kurdish uprising happened or- 54:00 ZT: No, when the United Nations included all thirty countries gave Saddam Hussein a deadline, you have to get your troops out of Kuwait or you have to face the consequences, so Saddam Hussein said this my nineteenth city I am not going to leave Kuwait, Kuwait is an Iraqi city, and long story short when the war happened, because Saddam Hussein was fighting with this side so the Kurdish people fighting the other side, so the Kurdish people, the Iraqi government was not strong, the Kurdish military with the people, not only Peshmerga because people stood and upraised that- 54:49 EI: I mean the upraising became it was spread to ground like people participated. 55:02 ZT: Yes, Peshmerga coming with them, what happened right now. 55:06 EI: But they were led by the Peshmerga, they were directed or- 55:09 ZT: Peshmerga knew it, like in, I do not know if you watched it president Barzani in 88 in I think was meeting with Peshmerga in one mountain and he said the government of Iraq is getting weaker, so it has to change some of his tone, whether is going to agree with Kurds to make you know the Peshmerga or it has to do something because economically it is getting weak, physically, emotionally like every aspect is getting weak, because when they went to war when he did the chemical in Halabja, the leader knew it and a lot of people said how did he knew, and in 88 if you look it right now in Khwakurg, he is talking to the Peshmerga saying bear with us, be patient you know things are going to change soon. This is what happened in 91. So 91 what happened Saddam Hussein went to Kuwait and the countries were fighting, so the Kurdish people in another side fight and the military did not fight, some of them fought because they knew the Kurdish people upraise and there is going to be a crazy, there is going to be a war if they going to fight, but the Kurdish people even that time; if you give up your weapon and you become like give it up, Kurdish people did not even kill anybody, and that is why we say right now that Kurdish people is one of the probably nation you could not imagine what kind of nation it was because you saw from your own eyes or heard these people are they kill your brother, your sister, your uncle. 56:55 EI: So, you are telling about the Peshmerga that they did not kill the Saddam army. 57:01 ZT: No, yeah because with the army was like in the city of Duhok and Erbil and Sulaimaniya they had basis. 57:10 EI: Okay when Peshmerga started to control back so they did not attack them. 57:15 ZT: No, if you give it up, if you fight we going to fight, because you are in our territory, so a lot of them, I am talking majority of them they knew because they were there for example you did not want to be there, just you, because you have to be there just because of the force, like you know they have to say if you do not go we going to kill him, so when they knew these things happening most of them they gave it up, like they put their weapon raised their hands said “Okay.” 57:46 EI: The Iraqi soldiers? 57:49 ZT: The Iraqi soldiers, and the Kurdish military, the Kurdish government, I am talking about the Peshmerga, if you do not fight most of them really nice way you know they put them somewhere and after probably a while they took them to outside of Duhok you know like it was called Faidhiya, probably like fifteen or twenty minutes away outside of Duhok and they let them go. And some of them said we do not want to go back, some of them said no we want to live over here, if you go back probably you going to get killed. So, what happened right now, with that happened the Kurdish people controlled even Kirkuk, they controlled and I do not know what happened because like I told you politician, things changed so Saddam Hussein was getting weak and, in this side, fighting with Kurds and this side pretty much. 58:43 EI: Shiite uprised against at the same time, and what happened right now, I do not know something happened, and I do not know they were scared of Iran or they were scared of any other countries to interfere with Iraq and they said that to be stopped right here, like American militaries and Saddam Hussein okay, they going to stop right here, and then you lift your helicopters so when they did that, the worst thing happened what they call in south, they were killing so many people because the Kurds have mountains and can go to the mountain, the killing is not going to be as bad as like if you are living in desert, you know it is open, so you can do whatever, so what happened right now when they stopped that Saddam Hussein had some power and he brought his troops close to Duhok and these places and they have good troops, still have thousands of thousand troops, the Kurdish people did not have weapon to defend themselves against the tanks and the plane, so what happened right now they said Saddam Hussein is going to come in and control the rest of the cities of Iraq like Duhok, Erbil Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk. So people got scared for their life, even the Peshmerga said do not run we going to be fighting until the last minute, but you going to say you know what we only have AK47, they have plane, they have this, they have that, so the fear is going to get you worse than anything else, so you going to say no I am going to run, so what happened. 1:00:28 EI: So, the migration started then. 1:00:32 ZT: Yes, so the people ran. 1:00:33 EI: Okay, now just to summarize in 1991, when Saddam attacked Kuwait, Kurds uprised, there are Kurdish uprising and then Kurds started to get control of the cities that they are majority in like Duhok, Erbil, Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk, and then Saddam came back after the war, after the gulf war and he said he will again invade Kurdish cities, in that time the Kurds started to migrate to the borders. 1:01:05 ZT: Half of them went to Iran, because wherever they close to- 1:01:10 EI: So, what do you remember about that migration, and- 1:01:13 ZT: Men was in one hand was really good cause it was everybody. We know a lot of knew this is going to be huge for the Kurds because why is going to be, it cannot be going under the media again, is going to be the uprising in the media too because all the media is going to be there because millions of people, it is going to be crossing the borders so they were hopefully want they going to be Kurdish voice going to be going up again. We do not need the mountain our friends, so when we wanted other country to become our friend and to help us, so this is what happened, when those people uprised, went to Turkey, went to Iran, and the United States, France and all the other countries came and helped, you know Turkey, they opened those camps you know like they opened those. 1:02:06 JT: How were the camps, did you have a bathroom, did you have anything? No. there was nothing, talking about your life in the camp. 1:02:13 ZT: What happened right now the life in the camps was not good, like- 1:02:15 EI: You were in Iran- 1:02:16 ZT: Turkey- 1:02:17 JT: If you see, right now Turkey has refugees, they accept the Syrian refugees, you see the camps there, tents and was it the same for you? 1:02:30 ZT: No, what happened right now because like I said our situation was different because that time the Kurdish voice was under the bubbles, like I told you under the one’s roof- 1:02:44 EI: I mean you want to say there was a huge suffering and that sufferings will attracts attention, you were expecting to attract attention. 1:02:52 ZT: Yes because what happened right now, you know few do a good thing, you know if you do a good job and you stand up and you do for days, months, years, one day hopefully for this position you going to get to that position, you know because if you are a good employee and you do right things and you are helping everybody, and you become a really a good group leader or supervisor, one day you know you going to be going upper. So same thing with these things. We knew it is life is not going to easy, and you are running from home, you come in to some mountain live in. 1:03:29 EI: So, when Saddam came back to get control again in Duhok or other cities, where there any attack of him, like did they attack civilians? 1:03:38 ZT: Peshmerga fought- 1:03:40 EI: Was there any conflict on street or? 1:03:45 ZT: Because we ran honestly, we moved I do not know exactly if anything happened any war, but Saddam Hussein was throwing like tanks were believe me were, couple of my friend like in the city where living they heard so many noises, there were bombings, they were doing a lot of stuff. Like because what happened right now if you have AK47 you cannot fight a tank, if a tank see you over there, it is stronger than you, so that is why people running for their life, they knew if anybody get caught is going to die because couple months ago you uprised against me, so now we going to be in control, what I am going to do to you. Do you think I am going to give you guys a cake? This is something going to be, we going to be facing the consequences, we going to kill you. 1:04:33 EI: As I understand people were told that punishment would be bigger because of uprising. 1:04:37 ZT: Because what happened right now when you, if me and you agree in a business and tomorrow you say you know what I am going to go separate way, and you go your separate way and you lost all your money, whatever reason was, and you come in next day say you know what Zeki I am sorry I want to be your partner again, I am going to say okay let us put the money; I do not have it. How I am going to be your partner? So same thing we were saying because we were scared we were Iraq, now we uprised against Saddam Hussein’s government and we become our own independence, safe, part of Iraq and now if they, we know if Saddam Hussein came in and control these things and you get caught, you going to be facing one of the probably worst things in your life whatever is going to be. Killing or prison. 1:05:28 EI: So, you were like how many days did it take to going to Turkish border? 1:05:34 ZT: I think we because whatever different people got there different days, because some people they knew some shortcuts, I think it took us like ten to thirteen, twelve days walk whatever right now. 1:05:49 EI: All family or? 1:05:50 ZT: Most of the family yes because we were- 1:05:54 EI: I mean with family I mean the children, women, girl the elderly? 1:06:00 ZT: Like you see some of the stuff honestly if you have pictures if you record that, you could not even believe it right now. And I know sometimes I say maybe have a dream. I saw those things, like I saw some old ladies or old men they left them behind, like for example your grandfather, father got old and you had to put him on your shoulder, everybody was trying to get to the point faster that they can because they do not exactly somebody behind them they going to get captured. If you get captured, get caught, you going to get killed. So I am not saying right or wrong, you saw so many kids dying, I think it was in they call it Jalee like in border in Turkey when we were staying in our camp I think they opened one graveyard became like thousands of thousands of people dying because of the cold, water, no food. Like I think was a holiday was like a Eid they did not have a bread in our home. So, my father and my uncle they got so mad and these things and they said we going to cross the borders because the government of Turkey they did not let us to go to the cities and because- 1:07:15 EI: They did not allow you to go out? 1:07:13 ZT: Yeah, they did not allow it because imagine if thousands of thousands of refugees, so they going to let me go, they going to let him go, they going to let you go. It is got to be something, they did not want anything happen. 1:07:24 EI: How was the condition? 1:07:26 ZT: The condition was not that good. 1:07:27 EI: The physical condition? 1:07:28 ZT: It was not that good, until the United States came in and they changed some of the- 1:07:35 JT: Sorry Zeki, but the United States did not have anybody’s name to give food; they sent it by aero plane. I mean it was not camp that they somebody respect you- 1:07:45 EI: I mean it was not organized or when you came from Iraq like you left your homeland you came with nothing right? 1:07:56 ZT: Nothing. 1:07:56 EI: So, there was not a place for you to sleep or to get shower or something? 1:08:02 ZT: No. 1:08:02 EI: It was not organized you mean, that right? 1:08:05 ZT: No, it was not organized no. 1:08:07 EI: Just the mountains or? 1:08:08 ZT: Like I am telling you like probably we were like in a hill, probably like a mountain, a hill and it was like because people were everywhere, like I told you a million of people going, crossing the border and after that you know they got, some people got tents, some people they got this, by the plane throwing like- 1:08:31 EI: They threw it from the planes? 1:08:35 ZT: the plane, those big planes food, especially was called dry foods, because you heat it or you can open the back and eat it. Because they did not have this kind of food like rise, chicken oil these things you can cook it, because you have no place, you have nothing, but after a couple of weeks gone you know, they got like some put some tents, brought some doctors, you know they were checking, and what happened right now because you walked so much, the cold so strong, and there was nothing for you to protect and you did not have many clothes to put on, blankets, so this is why so many kids died. 1:09:32 EI: Okay. So after that, you went back to the city. 1:09:35 ZT: Yes. I think it was- 1:09:37 EI: How long did it take the camp life? 1:09:40 ZT: It took a couple of months. What happened right now. 1:09:45 EI: And when you came back to Duhok, to your own home? 1:09:49 ZT: Yes. 1:09:49 EI: Did you lose any one in your family during that process? 1:09:55 ZT: Probably children, maybe I do not know because some of them went to Iran, some of them… but as adult like we say thank God everybody was okay, like nobody got injured, I know like some minor things going over here and there but like big things not happened. This will be thanking god because things happen for a reason, so we thanking God nothing happened. 1:10:20 EI: So. you back to Duhok again, your home and it was 1991 or (19)92? 1:10:27 ZT: It was almost like 1991 like we stayed a couple of months in there so we came back. 1:10:33 EI: Who was the governor of Duhok at that time? 1:10:38 ZT: At that time when we came back the Kurdish people was controlling but the thing is right now even worse, what happened the sanction was on Iraq, there was no food, Iraq could not sell oil, they put a sanction on Iraq, so right now with a Kurd become independent, I am not saying independent, like a separate. 1:11:00 EI: Autonomous. 1:11:00 ZT: Autonomous, like independent from Iraq, the Iraqi government put sanction on the Kurds, so now. 1:11:07 EI: So, the control of Duhok was like the Kurds control in that time? 1:11:12 ZT: Yes, but the thing is right now like people was so suffering, what happened right now the Kurdish government had no resources, where they going to bring the resources, where they going to bring food, you have to bring it from Iran, Turkey, Iraq because everybody closed their doors, their borders because still was sanction on Iraq itself. 1:11:35 EI: Was there any institutional government there, Iraqi government there? Saddam or? 1:11:41 ZT: No, Saddam. 1:11:42 EI: They just left? 1:11:43 ZT: What happened right now they, right now we saying we make Iraq united because what happened right now Saddam Hussein lost his control so he moved all his stuff. 1:11:56 EI: State institutions, the people- 1:12:00 ZT: Everything from northern Iraq. 1:12:02 EI: And left you there whatever you do. 1:12:04 ZT: Kurdish people and our own government and this way was so hard because the Kurdish had no resources, they had no money who is going to give you food, even if you have this, how you going to bring it because they have sanction on Iraq. 1:12:18 EI: How you survived that time? 1:12:20 ZT: It was not easy, let us put it this way. Like a pound and a half of sugar like was thirty-forty dinars that time and we could not even buy a kilo we had no job and Iraqi government pretty much put sanction on the Kurds you know with everything until was in 1995, 96 before we come in there was like some oil for food and then situation got a little better but what happened right now we left. 1:13:03 EI: And then 1992 and 1993 when did you, did you continue school there? 1:13:13 ZT: Yeah we went back, after that because we lost a year and something, we went back the thing is because the situation is not the same, now we do not like to go back to school, you lost almost a year and a half of your life, you going to back to the same class you have been before and couple of my cousin they quit school because of going to work so now things got different because what happened right now everybody happy because they do not have much money, food in the house, so this was the situation a little complicated. 1:13:49 EI: Yeah, you were not under the control of government, Iraqi government or Saddam but you were suffering economically and physical condition was bad, okay. So in school the education was there teacher or Kurdish education or something? 1:14:07 ZT: Yes, right now our government the teachers the principals under those circumstances, after those pressures the teachers never stopped their education. 1:14:20 EI: So, education started to be in Kurdish or? 1:14:22 ZT: No, we still had some classes like some we still have because our government had print you know Kurdish books and these things was not easy, because we did not have any what they call it. 1:14:38 EI: It was a transition process. 1:14:39 ZT: So, what happened right now, now we can be free more, we can talk, we can do stuff better than before but you still have some one or two classes in Kurdish, but majority of them was like Arabic classes. But now the teachers you can speak with you in Kurdish, you did not have to be afraid or you did not have to be afraid to speak. 1:15:01 EI: Okay, yeah so in street or in school it was easier. Okay And then you came to the United States in 1997? 1:15:10 ZT: Yeah left at the end of (19)96, we left I think. 1:15:14 EI: The whole family or? 1:15:15 ZT: Yeah, my mum, my dad and brothers and sisters. 1:15:18 EI: Okay, as a refugee? 1:15:19 ZT: Yes, as asylum. What happened right now because the United States government as those, what happened right now because when Kurdish government took control and I think it was in 95, honestly I do not exactly remember but they put no-fly zone around the Kurdish area, wherever the Kurdish control, they put no-fly zone. So that Saddam Hussein cannot bring any planes and after that a lot of organizations came in some working for government, some working for NGOs, so they came in, they helped, they brought like some medicine, food and these things. So, people was- 1:16:19 EI: From Europe or? 1:16:20 ZT: Yes from Europe and all over, so what happened right now some people they were working with them like become their drivers, because if you come in from the United States to Kurdistan you do not know exactly which city, which villages are, who is what, what they need, what were their needs, some become translators, so then, in the end I am not going to make it long, so Saddam Hussein said whoever worked for the United States or work with them not just, because you not going to be a CIA, by the time you become CIA need a lot of background check, but you were working with them become a translator, drivers. But He said whoever did anything work with the United States is not safe. So what happened right now and because the United States they did not have troops over there, they did not have like a base over there, so they got scared because what happened I think was in Vietnam when the United States was helping them some of them people, the local people was helping them so when they left the other government they controlled and killed all those people, so the United States said they not going to make the same mistake we made in Vietnam couple years ago, twenty years ago, forty years ago. So, they said whoever want write your name we going to take you and your kids any place you guys you want. So, this is how- 1:17:49 EI: The United States gave the opportunity and- 1:17:51 ZT: Yes, because what happened right now a lot of ah it is only you know it is tough, nothing is going to happen for so long they wrote down their names, they gave it to any agency you work for- 1:18:03 EI: They did not expect like this. 1:18:05 ZT: Like honestly, me personally and a lot of people, they do not have in their dream one day they going to come to the United States, because we said what, this is what I am saying right now, so far right now that is why we are saying thanks to the United States because they did something not so many countries did it. 1:18:23 EI: And you came here after that? 1:18:24 ZT: No, we went, because they took us at the end of (19)96, I think it was November or October, they took us to Guam. 1:18:31 EI: Where? 1:18:31 ZT: Guam is an island next to Hawaii. 1:18:33 EI: Ah, Okay. 1:18:34 ZT: It is like seven hours from Hawaii, so we went to Guam, the did our physic stuff, you know like they make us I think with a couple of months we stay over there because they- 1:18:44 EI: As camps? 1:18:45 ZT: It was really nice place; let us put it this way, nice. We were living like in house of the navy’s. The island was navy’s house living. Nice houses like they had AC, the best I am telling you, they give good food. 1:19:01 EI: You said you could not imagine it. 1:19:05 ZT: Now if you go there, I guarantee you, you going to spend a thousand of thousand they just have some fun like we had, I am not saying… because whatever they were doing, they were doing the paper for us, doing physical stuff, you know testing, make sure everything is good, you know all the paper… the health, the issue. 1:19:20 EI: Did you get any education for language there? 1:19:22 ZT: They had some classes you know you go over there, they teach you basic stuff, you know, they brought some Kurdish people they knew English in San Francisco a couple of them become working with the United States, they were teaching us how to live our lives what to do, what not to do, what to say, what not to say over here, they were basically basic stuff they were teaching you. 1:19:47 EI: How long, for six months? 1:19:49 ZT: No, I think it was like few months like three, four, five months, yes probably. 1:19:53 EI: Just for integration process. 1:19:56 ZT: Because what happened right now we came to this country as soon as we landed we went to social service, and we went to social security everything was like set, like social security they sent our social security, green card after a year something like that we got our green card, and then everything. 1:20:16 EI: You had the refugee’s status. 1L20:18 ZT: Yes, yeah. 1:20:20 EI: So, and then Binghamton? 1:20:22 ZT: No, we went to Maryland. 1:20:24 EI: Maryland? 1:20:25 ZT: Yeah like close to Washington D.C., because in Guam they give you choices, if you have a relative, a family live anywhere in the United States, if you had contact with them you know, if you know, if he is going to will to help, we going to take you over there but before because my cousin lived in New Jersey because my father when he came lost his number he said we do not want to bother anybody right now, so just go over there and see what happens, so this is why, if you do not give them any choice like say I want to go over there, they will take you some places they know is going to be good for you. 1:21:04 EI: Okay, so you went to Maryland? 1:21:06 ZT: So, a lot of people went to Tennessee, Nashville, some went to California; some went to I think the majority went to Virginia. So, we went to Maryland. 1:21:19 EI: So, what had changed in your life after that? 1:21:22 ZT: a lot of stuff to be honest with you, we saw so many things like you know, you are human right now before when you were living under Saddam Hussein you thought you know we were like somebody just nothing, just here to live to worship like these government, now we know your life is more important than anything else, and over here they treat you really you can be who you are, they give you a big choice like you want to be doing this, you can do this, you can do this, you want to be a businessman, you going to be an educated person, so they give you opportunities. 1:21:59 EI: So, you got your education in college? Which college? 1:22:03 ZT: Yes. Broome Community College. 1:22:05 EI: And you came to Binghamton? 1:22:07 ZT: No, over there because what happened right now I stayed over there for like only a year because we went to high school but because we tried to go to college they told us college is very expensive, we have a couple, my father knows a couple of people over here and said they got contact you know, they say college over here if you become resident tuition you know plus financial aids and these things is going to be cheaper. 1:22:31 EI: Government helped you financially right in that time? 1:22:34 ZT: Over there? 1:22:35 EI: No, here. 1:22:36 ZT: Over here yes. 1:22:38 EI: You cannot find a job like for the first time when you came. So, they- 1:22:43 ZT: Financially they helped us. No, you cannot say enough about this country you know, I am not saying everything is, like I told you nothing is perfect, like I want to be a millionaire for example, but like you cannot say- 1:22:55 EI: But you could survive. 1:22:57 ZT: You cannot say anything enough about this country, they do everything to make you to become somebody who you are not, like to stand up on your feet and open your eyes, like here is the whole world in front of you, what you want to be. That is what I am saying, no, they give you enough, they give you good tools they give you good education, and it is up to you right now who you want to be. 1:23:23 EI: Great, and then you came to Broome community college; you got your degree there? What was your degree? 1:23:29 ZT: In Marketing Management Sale. 1:23:31 EI: Marketing Management? 1:23:32 ZT: Yeah. 1:23:33 EI: Okay, good. 1:23:34 ZT: I studied two years computer and after that because what happened right now I told them I said I want to do another thing and my advisor told me if you want to take this pretty much same classes some of this classes is some of these classes, so you do not have to take as many as credit you need because now math, they needed for C++, they needed for these class, you not take math for business, 1:24:04 EI: Okay, now what is your job, what is your occupation? 1:24:08 ZT: Right now? 1:24:09 EI: Yeah. 1:24:10 ZT: Group leader, working EAT. 1:24:12 EI: What is EAT? 1:24:13 ZT: EAT is Endicott Interconnect Technology, it is like what they call it IBM before it used to be IBM, now is EAT, 1:24:21 EI: So, it is an American company, right? 1:24:24 ZT: Yes. 1:24:24 EI: You are working there? 1:24:25 ZT: Yes. 1:24:25 EI: And how is the job conditions? You are happy with it? 1:24:30 ZT: Like the way you see me, I go to work like this, sometimes, some of my friends what the hell you are doing over here, you became like a CEO… What happened, our job is not dirty, like dirty I mean like dirt or making this thing or is not happy. 1:24:45 EI: You are not working in a construction or building- 1:24:48 ZT: No. 1:24:48 EI: It is like a company. 1:24:50 ZT: It is not like you have to wear some nice jeans, you know some nice T-Shirt so that you have to love some… No, it is not that heavy, and honestly it is easy and I am not saying easy like anybody but you have to get some training but it is good. 1:25:04 EI: So, you are happy with your education and with your family. 1:25:07 ZT: Yes. 1:25:07 EI: You are living here with your three children- 1:25:12 ZT: Alhamdullila… Yes. 1:25:14 EI: Masha Allah, and your wife is she Kurdish? 1:25:17 ZT: Yes. 1:25:17 EI: She is Kurdish, she was living here? 1:25:22 ZT: No, she was back home she is his sister. She was back home. 1:25:28 EI: Your sister right. 1:25:30 ZT: What happened right now when I went over there. 1:25:33 EI: So, you are relatives? 1:25:34 ZT: Yes, he is my cousin, that is why I say when his father was over there, my other uncle was with us. 1:25:40 EI: Did you have any relatives in Kurdistan right now? 1:25:44 ZT: Lots of them. 1:25:45 EI: Lots. [laughs] 1:25:46 ZT: Everybody is over there, that what we saying right now. 1:25:49 EI: Are you going by accident or visit them? 1:25:51 ZT: I was there like in 2005, I hope soon, that is what was asking, Desko made something happen, they send this people so I can go with them. 1:26:00 EI: When was the last time when for your visit? 1:26:03 ZT: 2005. 1:26:04 EI: 2005, so it is great, I want you to compare when you left the country and how you found the country- 1:26:11 ZT: No man it was different, I am not saying. 1:26:14 EI: What was the, like as a citizen not as an… you do not have to be in any identity… for like ordinary people what changed there? 1:26:25 ZT: The thing… life, because now they… what happened people worry about one thing, their business, before you know everybody was unemployed, sitting you know, come sit next to you for like three hours, you go see him for six hours, when I went over there everybody was busy doing something. 1:26:43 EI: Were you surprised when? 1:26:45 ZT: Honestly, I was shocked, how fast things can be changed? You know from people and the web con you know holding AK47 on their shoulder and become technology, computer you know phone I am not saying because our country they do not deserve it, but because we did not have these things. So now everything become available to the Kurdish, look at it right now and I think I heard this that the United States and Europe saying the first nation we see them from a gun to technology change that fast is the Kurdish people, so imagine when I was over there everybody I am telling you, young people had guns holding. 1:27:28 EI: In 1997? 1:27:29 ZT: In (19)95 and (19)96 yes, they had AK47 on their shoulders, even if you are not in military, because gun was everywhere, when I went over there, they could not even sell, you have to have a license, if you not with military they if see you they going to say okay. 1:27:46 EI: So, everything is organized. 1:27:48 ZT: What happened right now they changed so much. 1:27:49 EI: So how about treatment? 1:27:51 ZT: Treatment was better. 1:27:53 EI: When you back there you firstly went to Istanbul or something? 1:27:58 ZT: No, the first I went to Syria. 1:28:00 JT: He is talking about 2000. You are talking about 2005. 1:28:02 ZT: Oh! 2005, yeah, I went to Istanbul. 1:28:06 EI: First you went in 2000 and then in 2005. 1:28:11 ZT: Yes. 1:28:12 EI: Okay. So, there was significant change between 2000 and 2005 as well? 1:28:18 ZT: Because what happened right now like 2000 few people had good job and they were living, still were happy. 1:28:27 EI: Actually, the Kurdistan Region it was officially accepted in 2003, right? 1:28:33 ZT: Yes. So what happened right now still people had jobs and life was better because have more freedom, they can stand up and do something without any other countries because there was still sanctions on Iraqi government and still on Kurdistan and 2000 was like that, and 2005 I went to Istanbul me and my friend, we went to Istanbul, we landed it was really good because we were like when hour in the JFK, for our plane to take off so we went to Istanbul was amazing, I am telling you the country was good the food was good, so we said we do not have that much time so we cannot go outside of the airport, so we had to go from Istanbul airport is like a local go to Diyarbakir. 1:29:18 EI: And then you went to Diyarbakir with plane again? 1:29:23 ZT: Yes, plane because we could take a bus but its 24 hours so it is like a long ride, so we went to from Istanbul to Diyarbakir we checked our things, where you guys going? Diyarbakir. 1:29:34 EI: How was the treatment in Istanbul? 1:29:36 ZT: I mean personally I did not have any problem, like honestly the did not ask me any questions, and they did not tell me what you doing, just I gave them my passport, American passport, they stamped for me, you are good. 1:29:49 EI: You had American passport and you said you are going to Iraq? 1:29:53 ZT: No in Istanbul they even did not ask as, so we went to Diyarbakir, where you guys going- 1:29:57 EI: You got visa for Turkey, right? 1:30:00 ZT: Yes, Turkey yes. So what happened right now in Diyarbakir when we landed because the airport was small, so we took our packs and there were cabs over there, cab driver you know? 1:30:10 EI: Actually, in Diyarbakir it is not a civil airport as far as I know. Is it army? 1:30:15 ZT: Diyarbakir when we went over there was like tanks pretty much a lot of places you know like militaries because- 1:30:21 EI: Because it is not a civilian airport. 1:30:23 ZT: Still what happened right now they were saying PKK comes and they attacks sometimes but they did not ask us anything because they know we are visitors, I am not going to talk about the Kurdish Turkey to see because what happened right now we were there and a couple of drivers over there and we told them, they said the situation is getting a little better because now some of them they get visa, they can cross borders, they make some money for their families you know before they did not have that either, so it was hard. 1:30:52 EI: So, you went to Diyarbakir and then Kurdistan. 1:30:54 ZT: Diyarbakir and then we get a cab driver, because we asked them who have a visa, because some they do not have a visa, they could not cross the border, because they have to be in Turkish side. So, one of them said okay we can take you guys, so we went to the last one that is still that time between the Kurdish government and the Turkish government was not that strong connection like today in a business and everything. 1:31:17 EI: Yes, today is after 2009 I think it is better. 1:31:20 ZT: The driver told us and we knew, he said they ask you guys where you going, say we going to go to Iraq, but if you guys say Kurdistan and you know sometimes that word is going to interfere you know, they are not going to probably like it, but right now if you go right now; I am going to go to Kurdistan, so it is not going to hurt them that much, so situation is become so different like technology, like I am telling you friendship Turkey right now doing business with the Kurd, Kurd doing business with the Turk you know they doing with Iran, so if you go right now like if you have pictures like in 10 years ago, fifteen years ago as a people and you see have the same picture of that person like right now. 1:31:59 EI: So how do you feel? 1:32:00 ZT: Really great. Like this is why I said I am proud to say I am a Kurd, because like I told you if I live like in a country I am not going to mention any countries because every country people love their own countries but if live in Africa or wherever country you live in, if you have a bad reputation in United Nation like your country as corruption, killings and these things, you going to be like oh! man did I said this, but you will be happy and you will be proud if your country is doing good. 1:32:31 EI: Yeah, when you walking in the street for example in Duhok, what was your feeling because you remember your childhood, you remember bad stories, so memories, what were your feelings? 1:32:45 ZT: The feelings, I was telling my couple of cousins with me like sometimes I think like was one o’clock we were going to… we drove the car, his father’s car- 1:32:56 EI: 1am? 1:32:57 ZT: 1am something like that with his brother, we took his father’s car and I did not how to drive shift I said listen bear with me, so we drove we went like one o’clock, two o’clock I said listen, look right now, ten-fifteen years ago situation was so much different, right now you can go over there, stores. 1:33:14 EI: You can drive during the night. 1:33:16 ZT: A coffee, a cake, one o’clock in the afternoon, and Christian are free, they can do whatever they want, they have their own stores, do you have this, nobody come to you saying why you have this, why driving in this time, they do not have checkpoints like in the cities, I remember like in Saddam Hussein’s time if you travel in the night, there was like so many checkpoints at night; one in this town, one in this area, one in this sport, you could not even believe it, now, but they only have one checkpoint you know in that side because so many, they want to that bad people to come in like terrorist and these things, otherwise there is no checkpoints from here to go all the way to Erbil it is like probably there is another checkpoint. So, it is really great because you feel like you are somebody, you are human; you live in a country they care about you. 1:34:14 EI: So, as I understand you are happy living in the United States and being Kurdistan citizen. 1:34:21 ZT: Yes. See that is why I am saying our country is good, our government, they accept doors to citizenship, some countries they do not accept it. 1:34:25 EI: Yeah, you have dual citizenship? 1:34:27 ZT: Yes. Because we are Kurd, we are from Iraq and you are Turk, I mean you are from the United States so what happened right now we have still- 1:34:39 EI: You have Iraqi passport or Kurdistan? 1:34:41 ZT: No, what I am saying right now the Kurdish people accepted, like for example right now if my friend is from India says as soon as I become US citizen, I have to give up all my things. 1:34:52 EI: In India? 1:34:53 ZT: In India. So, the Kurdish people accepted like you can have the ID, right now something you know when we go over there. 1:35:00 EI: You can have both IDs, right? It is not a problem. 1:35:04 ZT: Yes, no. 1:35:04 EI: Iraqi or Kurdistan. 1:35:0 ZT: No, right now when we go over there. 1:35:07 JT: Both is the same. 1:35:07 ZT: Yeah when we go over there right now something because what happened right now we can, I give them my drier license, sometimes I can give them my Iraqi ID like the Kurdish, they going to look at it, my name, my picture. They are not going to say oh! - 1:35:19 EI: If you back to Kurdistan, you will not have any problem like as a citizen you have all rights? 1:35:26 ZT: No. 1:35:26 EI: Okay. DO you want to go back one day or, do you miss something? 1:35:29 ZT: I hope. I am not saying because I do not like this country honestly, but because we want to help them, you know we want them, we want the country to become somebody like some rest of the countries like you know we can get the visa, if you want to visit like Turkish you know, like Gulf countries, like European, they have their own citizenship, they come in, they visit you know, they visit their relatives, they come for business, for pleasure whatever they come for, two weeks later they go back, so we want our country become like same like this because if you become economically good condition and everything become better hopefully tomorrow the Kurdish citizenship you know Kurdish if you have passport, you can travel anywhere you want. 1:36:14 EI: One day you will go back. 1:36:16 ZT: Hopefully that is what I am saying right now because everything is like t the modern time if you like become models and if you become like stable in business what other countries want? Business, so when you go travel right now anywhere you want, like if you go to Turkey, if Istanbul is probably say number one in Europe tourism like people go to there, why because they treat you like really good, if they treat you like in the airport like in bad reputation they give you attitudes, if you go to this town, if you go to this restaurant they treat you say oh! you are from this, you know this, are you going to go back again? 1:36:50 EI: No. 1:36:50 ZT: No. So that is why my couple of cousins they go over there, they love it, why? Not because they love it because beaches all over there, or the trees or big mountains or big house or tall buildings, no-no. the treatment like the people treat you, they go wo a restaurant, they treat you good, nice, they do not say oh you are from this part, then they going to give you shish kebab, they going to give you this. 1:37:16 EI: So, they are welcome to tourists. 1:37:18 ZT: Yes, that is what I am saying, so Istanbul became so powerful economically. That is why the Kurdish people trying to establish good environment. 1:37:28 EI: Okay. How old is your children? 1:37:32 ZT: Five, I think my daughter is going to be close to three, and my youngest son is like two and a half months. 1:37:40 EI: Two sons and one daughter? 1:37:44 ZT: Yes. 1:37:44 EI: Okay, great. So, they will grow up here. 1:37:46 ZT: They are citizens, this is why I say to them I say now, see this is why I say about this country is great, they could be president tomorrow, for example I am not saying they going to be citizen I mean president but the thing is right now in this country. 1:38:00 EI: They were born in America. 1:38:03 ZT: Yes, what happened right now in this country if you, right now is changed because you have to have so much money fund for this but in other stuff they do not stop you to become somebody like they do not stop you, your education has to be stopped right here or your business cannot be going further or your this has to be stopped, so you have opportunities that is why this country became great because they came all over and they are open, so you open a restaurant… 1:38:35 EI: So, you are like in daily life you do not have any problem, right? 1:38:38 ZT: No. 1:38:38 EI: Right as an American citizen you have all rights. 1:38:41 ZT: You have every right and you can do so many things the other American cannot do it. 1:38:47 EI: I mean because of your identity there is no problem, because you are Muslim identity or Kurdish identity? 1:38:53 ZT: No, see that is why I say this country is- 1:38:54 EI: For example, in your job or something. 1:38:55 ZT: No, that is why I say this country is different because and they know it I am Muslim because I leave Fridays, I told my boss I said I am going to go to my Friday hour… They give you an hour. 1:39:04 EI: So, you still practice your religion and your culture- 1:39:09 ZT: Yes, pray, fasting- 1:39:10 EI: So, yes, I learn about that as well, like your cultural life here. You still have Kurdish community in Binghamton and there are lots of families so you have relation with them, what is your relation and do you have any special day or celebration or visit or something? 1:39:27 ZT: Yes, celebration is there, like Newroz hopefully we going to invite you too, hopefully we going to make Newroz, we are hoping to make Newroz and you know we going to have Halabja and other celebration like Eid we go, I think two years ago, two-three years ago on the Eid we went to a part after- 1:39:57 EI: To picnic or something? 1:39:58 ZT: Picnic, you know what happen after pray, Eid Pray? We say you know each person bring and share… pretty much most of them came, majority of them, I think two-three family one of them they had sick in their family but- 1:40:07 EI: Not just men, the women children. 1:40:10 ZT: Everybody, so we said if each person brings and share desserts and food bring cookies too you know whatever you going to bring and each have tables we went to the Cole Part, and until now everybody says that was the best Eid ever, because everybody saw each other in five minutes… 1:40:29 EI: I mean still have relation and close relation visiting each other. 1:40:32 ZT: Yes, we have everything. 1:40:33 EI: Okay. Great! I mean if someone is sick you know about it or- 1:40:36 ZT: Right now if one of our friend is sick, he would visit him every day, but he stand couple nights with him, my brother stay couple night with him, other people like friends staying couple nights, the other… because what happened right now if he stays every day say a month or twenty day, he is going to be tired, he is going to be emotionally, physically he is going to be waaaaa, he is going to crazy, if he stays only two days, I am going to stay the other two days, things are going to be easier around everybody. So, the Kurdish community is really good for such kind of stuff because they do not say Oh he is from this tribe or he is from this part, he is from there. 1:41:19 EI: Yeah, when you come to the United States you are all Kurds not your local tribes because- 1:41:25 ZT: So, they help each other a lot, they do whatever they can do to make their life easier. 1:41:34 EI: Did all the second generation, did they all get their education, college education or something? 1:41:39 ZT: Not all of them, most of them are getting, some of them are still in colleges, some of them are not… what happened right now that is because before us, because it was like other group was here of Kurdish people, some of them came like in (19)92, (19)93- 1:41:58 EI: Just after the uprising. 1:42:00 ZT: After the uprising, so what happened right now the education level was not that high. 1:42:08 EI: For the first generation? 1:42:10 ZT: For the first generation, what happened right now say for example my father even he did not go to school but education on his head is a top priority over everything, not because you want to be educated so I can. 1:42:22 EI: I mean with education I do not mean the knowledge or culture or something but diploma, I mean for example you got your Diploma and you can study in American company, so I mean that- 1:42:36 ZT: No, some of them are getting it right now, a lot of them are still in Broome community college, they got I think, I do not know how many students we have in Broome Community College, we have quite a few people. 1:42:48 JT: Thirty-five students in BCC and couple people in BU. 1:42:55 EI: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 1:42:57 ZT: Oh, no thank you. I appreciate- 1:43:00 EI: If you want to add something and in general. 1:43:03 ZT: I said everything, hopefully they going to be happy with this. [laughs] 1:43:06 EI: Yeah, it is mostly one hour and forty-five minutes. 1:43:10 ZT: Wow, I thought maybe it is going to be twenty minutes. No, it was good. 1:43:22 EI: [laughs] It was a good conversation, thank you so much. 1:43:24 ZT: Like a couple of my friends saying why we are not going to make the whole thing at once, I said listen because if everybody speak- 1:43:29 EI: It is personal story and the will get the common things. 1:43:30 ZT: No, no, no I said it is for your time too, imagine if have like six more people now, an hour for me. 1:43:33 EI: I think I will then be more tired than… [laughs]. Okay, thank you so much. 1:43:35 ZT: Thank you. 1:43:36 JT: -you your best of luck. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zeki Taha Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2a5c7bb63aef596fcf78e460cb8478e.mp3 defdc13b7bc49712723378ad1cd40687 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview 25 May 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zhiman Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 65:31 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Zhiman was born and raised in the city of Duhok along with 13 of her siblings. Unfortunately, her family lost two children, one during the 1991 Gulf War and another during the 2003 Iraqi war. At the age of 11, Zhiman fled Iraqi Kurdistan for the United States with her family. She currently resides in Syracuse, NY with her family and holds a master's degree in Nursing. Keywords Kurdistan; Gulf War; Turkey; Guam; Refugee; Kurdish Culture; Muslim; Kurdish celebrations; Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Zhiman Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 25 May 2013 Interview Setting: Interviewee’s home, Endicott, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 AD: Okay, all right. Zhiman, why do not you just, let us take your full name. 0:15 ZZ: Zhiman Ni’ma Zebari. 0:17 AD: Okay, so just tell us: Where were you born, and we will go from there. 0:26 ZZ: I was born in Duhok Kurdistan in 1985. 0:28 AD: Okay, so how many siblings do you have? 0:30 ZZ: My mom originally had fourteen kids. Two of them passed away. So, I only have twelve now. But I am one of eight girls and we had six brothers but now there is five. 0:48 AD: Okay, so the two died. Why have they died? 0:53 ZZ: What happened the little girl at the age of one and a half in 1991 she died during the gulf war when the Kurds escaped, when a lot of the Kurds escaped their villages to go the mountains because of the Baath party. Saddam’s Baath party came and invaded the cities, and it was cold and raining and the child did not make it through. 1:18 AD: I see. And the other? 1:20 ZZ: The other one he was old; he was 28 years old. This was a lot after we had been in America, he wanted to go back to Iraq to be a translator during the 2003-2004 war in Iraq. He was a translator there when him and fellow American colleagues killed during combat. 1:40 AD: Oh, wow, so he died in Iraq? 1:43 ZZ: He died in Fallouja Iraq. This was 2004. 1:45 AD: Oh my God, 2004. 1:49 ZZ: He was the oldest sibling. 1:51 AD: The oldest one. How unfortunate! So, you were born in Duhok and how long did you live there. 2:03 ZZ: I lived there till the age of eleven. But that was in 1996 and then we moved here. After Saddam Hussein found out about the organization that my dad was working with, which was a non-profit organization that was basically trying to renovate the destructed cities in Kurdistan after the gulf war ended. When Saddam Hussein found out about these organizations, he immediately said he is going to eliminate all these people and their families. Somehow the directory got out to him, and we were no longer safe. And since we were part of the non-government organization, we had to escape and go to the western countries which was the United States of America. So, we had to leave our country as a result. 2:58 AD: So, is your father still alive? 3:00 ZZ: Yes. 3:00 AD: He is here? 3:01 ZZ: Yes. 3:02 AD: So, let me ask you this. You lived in Duhok the whole time, in the city? 3:10 ZZ: In the city. 3:11 AD: So, you were not like in the outskirts of the city? 3:12 ZZ: I mean my parents grew up in outskirts, but I grew up in the Duhok city. 3:20 AD: How is your living? Did you have a house? Apartment? 3:25 ZZ: We had a house- 3:27 AD: A garden and everything? 3:29 ZZ: Pretty much, a house with multiple rooms and a little garden we had fruit trees in there. It was not the biggest house, but it was decent for us where we could all live in the same place. 3:43 AD: I see. So obviously your mother did not work, taking care of fourteen kids. Right? 3:46 ZZ: No, she did not. 3:50 AD: So, you guys when to school? 3:53 ZZ: We did yeah. When we left, I was still in middle school- elementary/middle school. So, I was very less educated than my other siblings. 4:04 AD: I see, so all of your other siblings when you look at them, did they all get education while in Duhok? 4:15 ZZ: Absolutely. My parents made sure that no matter what the circumstances were the kids will not leave school and go to work, because it was hard having family, big family when my dad was the only source of income, but they made sure that none of the kids dropout of school to go and work. They made sure that we were stayed in school and did what was important to us. 4:37 AD: So, what language did you guys speak. 4:41 ZZ: I was learning up I was, the stage that I was in it was all in Arabic and a little bit of Kurdish. 4:49 AD: So, your first language was Arabic. 4:51 ZZ: Well, I mean I did not know what I was starting the alphabet, I was only in fifth grade. I was starting to pick it up but throughout the years like from first grade we were always taught the names of Arabic like door. But we also we would have taught in Kurdish but it was not allowed, we had to learn it in Arabic too. My sister who is a year and a half younger than me, their class was Kurdish. They were learning in Kurdish. While I was still in the phase of it was mainly taught in Arabic. 5:31 AD: I see. So, how about your parents. Do they speak Arabic? 5:36 ZZ: My dad speaks Arabic yeah. 5:38 AD: Fluent? 5:39 ZZ: Very fluent. But my mom does not she only speaks Kurdish. 5:45 AD: Because she did not work and- 5:46 ZZ: She did not go to school. 5:48 AD: Oh, she did not go to school? But how about your father? 5:49 ZZ: He dropped out of school like at the six grade I think, he was, he had to take care of family matters. He had to work. I mean circumstances were different for him. He did not have a choice. He either had to quit school or go help his dad out with the other business they had at that time, and school was not an option for him at that time. 6:14 AD: So, tell me about Duhok, like what do you remember? 6:19 ZZ: I remember stores, I remember schools I remember like a lot of streets with houses. Very little trees very, a lot of destructive areas underserved areas, I remember some garden, some places where people who rented a place they would go and make little gardens, my childhood was basically spent on street playing with rocks, you know very little toys. You know we went wild with our imaginations, like water hoses and stuff like that. 7:02 AD: Oh yeah. So, where you lived where there like Arabs, Iraqis? 7:10 ZZ: No, there were not. 7:12 AD: Just Kurdish people lived? 7:14 ZZ: Just Kurdish people lived. I know near by the neighborhood, I know some Kurdish family that were from Iraq regions like Mosul but knew Arabic, preferred Arabic language because they grew up with that language whereas we mainly did not associate with them as much because we could not communicate together. So, I remember having difficulty with these kids, like they were the outsiders, and we were the cool kids. 7:47 AD: I see. So, that is interesting because like you did not have to, growing up you did not have any Arab friends. 7:59 ZZ: No, not really. 8:01 AD: But at school? 8:03 ZZ: But at school we were taught in Arabic. 8:06 AD: No, the school you went, were there other Arab kids? 8:10 ZZ: No, not really. 8:12 AD: No? it was just for Kurdish kids? 8:13 ZZ: Kurdish kids yeah. 8:14 AD: Hmm. So, it is like heavily populated Kurdish population. 8:19 ZZ: And mainly Badini Kurds, Behdini. 8:24 AD: What is that? 8:26 ZZ: There is Sorani, there is Badini-kirmanji, it was mainly Badinis. So, we all know the same dialect of Kurdish. 8:32 AD: So, you speak Badini, not kirmanji. 8:34 ZZ: Not Kirmanji. 8:35 AD: Really? I though you speak in Kirmanji? 8:38 ZZ: No, I speak Badini. 8:40 AD: Oh, Erdem only knows Kirmanji. 8:43 ZZ: That is okay my sister will translate. 8:47 AD: Oh my God, I wish then I would interview with your mother. Okay that is alright. We are killing two birds with one stone. I did not know that. Karwan never told me I thought Karwan spoke Kirmanji. 9:03 ZZ: He may know words and stuff like that. 9:06 AD: Like you know Marwan? Marwan worked with me. So, his first language is not Kirmanji, what is it? 9:18 ZZ: Badini? 9:19 AD: No. 9:19 ZZ: Sorani. 9:20 AD: Sorani. And then his wife’s first language is Kirmanji but Snur you know her? 9:30 ZZ: I do know Snur. 9:32 AD: Yeah, so that is interesting. Oh, I did not know. 9:36 ZZ: There are multiple Kurdish dialects, but I know four. 9:40 AD: I think Kirmanji is like widely spoken dialect. And I know in Turkey there is like Zazai Kurdish. I think Zazas only live in Turkey. I do not think they live in anywhere else. 9:57 ZZ: You know honestly the four major dialects of Kurdish like Sorani, Kirmanji, Zazaki and Badini, they are very similar they have just, it is like you know people in northers US talk differently than people in the south. 10:13 AD: It is that much different. 10:15 ZZ: It is a lot more different, but it is understandable. 10:18 AD: Grammar is the same, like the sentence structure. 10:21 ZZ: There are different words, the lettering is pretty much the same. Like the alphabet, but there are different names for different things. But it is not hard to know them all. 10:34 AD: But like grammatically, is the same? 10:36 ZZ: Pretty much. 10:37 AD: I understand maybe you use different word to describe sky than Kirmanji people. That happens in Turkey. Northern people have different words to describe different things, okay I see. So, do you remember any of the like commotions or upheavals? Or poor man tortures going on? 11:14 ZZ: I do. I remember there were night we would just hear gunfire in a distant all night, and we would go to the ceiling just to see, the sky would be lit with gunfire and noises and stuff like that, and we would just watch from a distant from our home, and you know there was war there was fighting going on from a distant. When we would hear this constantly, we would here explosions. A lot of time during school time we would the alarm goes off. The whole city was basically on attack mode. We would get under our desks. We would be put into basement, or we would have to be sent home mainly, because the risk of explosions and attacks was very high. That is the commotions that I do remember. I remember many times when we were at home during the night times when you would here the fighting, we would be ready in our coats and stuff and packed and just run away. Any minute now we did not know when we were safe, or we had to run away or when it was a good time? There was a lot of that. I remember a lot of our nights were scary. The nights were very scary. 12:32 AD: Did you have to leave your home and go somewhere else because of the danger? 12:38 ZZ: Yes. I had relatives in a little nearby village where, village where sometimes a lot safer than the city because a lot of time the attacks were done in cities. So, we had distant relatives in a village we would go sometimes for a month or forty days or something just until we know that the city is clear again to come back or safe again. 13:03 AD: Wow. So, and did you experience any like any lose, like a relative, or someone in your family dies over an attack or something? 13:19 ZZ: Not my immediate family but I know distant family members there were instances where they would just disappear, and we never know what happened to them. lot of times in our neighborhood someone’s spouse never come back from work or people would just disappear. 13:40 AD: Leslie, jump in if you have any questions, okay? So, some other interviews told us like they literally spent a lot of time in mountains. Did you have that too? 14:02 ZZ: The one time that I spent a lot of time in mountain was the war of Gulf war in 1990. When we actually left our homes in Early spring and did not come back until later in June where we spent a lot of winter months, actually it was late winter or early spring or summer where we spent a lot of time in mountains, it was raining a lot. It was cold. 14:29 AD: So, where did you live in mountains? 14:32 ZZ: I am not sure about the area I was only five years old. 14:35 AD: No, what do you remember? What was the setting right? 14:39 ZZ: There were times, there were like just hills and hills of tents. I do remember walking when we were trying to leave that there were dead bodies all of over the ground, the mud was, because there was so many people walking in the mud, the whole ground it was not like concrete, anything and it became muddy, and people were getting stuck in the mud. And I remember each step took all the effort in you to go to the next step. People where hungry, they were starving, they were thirsty, they were sick. There was cold, they were dead, the cold was wet there was no protection. There was no safety. I do remember people just slumping over and that was it, they were dead, and people were just, some men would just drag them to the side of the road or something. And I do remember this one specific bridge which crossed over a river, and it was very steep like only one or two people at a time that could go on the bridge. And there were lines and lines of people waiting to cross that bridge. It was very scary and I remember being, at a point on this time I got lost from my family and I got stuck in the mud, and I saw one of my distant relatives currently my brother-in-law’s mom, she was screaming behind me, she was stuck in the mud and she just laugh all out screaming and I was a five year old with a backpack on my back and I am trying to help her. That is one of the things that I had a nightmare about a lot. And I do remember just looking around and just seeing masses of people just dead around us. I remember people screaming, crying, my mom like screaming because she thought she lost her kid. I remember her on Kurdish clothes the two lawindis, she had tied her two of her kids with her lawindis and she had a fifteen-day old baby she was holding. She had just my sister Bizhyan. And I remember my dad carrying my grandma on his back because she was crippled. It was just, there was no safety, it was just completely chaos. It was each person on their own, baby or older or young. It was like no one was safe. 17:08 AD: So, you were hungry a lot. 17:11 ZZ: The thing is my mom and my dad had so many kids, at that time we were all so young I was only five years old at that time, and there was at least four younger ones younger than me, the youngest being fifteen days old. And there were probably six or more older than me, this was probably like fourteen at that time. So my parents had all these young kids plus my grandma who was crippled and every time we caught up to other relatives who had less kids who were more independent, they had already cooked something quick at a rest area, like a little quick area they would stop rest and cook something, by the time we caught up to them, it was already we had to go again. So, we never really had time to stop have our parents cook something for us or change our cloths we were always just keep going just keep going. And I think for like ten or fifteen days we were always just going always just going in the rain and the cold and starving all the time, hungry cold and just tired. 18:26 AD: Yeah, so but when you reached the tent area did you guys have any food. 18:33 ZZ: That is when the aid came. Basically, I think it was UN, they came, and they dropped, they would drop heavy loads of food and a lot of time people would rush to these to catch them and they were huge, and they would fall on people. They would probably be as big as this room, and they would fall on people and crush them and kill them. It was just so bad. Ye and then people would just fight over these, it was whatever it was that they were providing with us basically, like bags of stuff that you could have, and my uncle, my dad, my uncles other relatives they would go, the men mainly they would go and they would try and bring stuff for us. And that is when my mom and grandma they would cook stuff for us, and we would have a little tent which basically inside the tent was all mud anyways, and we would just be lying and sleeping and sitting in these muddy tents. And I do remember at this time I know one late afternoon it was around the time that the sun would go down, my mom had just placed my one and a half year old sister down for, she was getting close to death, she was dying, she had just laid her down to go to sleep and I was sitting outside the tent my mom left to go and prepare something or get some stuff ready, when she came back to check on my sister that is when she screamed because the baby had died. 20:10 AD: Oh, wow! Yeah, that is so sad. You know it is just so hard to imagine. So, this happened during the gulf war? 20:23 ZZ: Uh-huh 20:23 AD: Did you also, I remember Ridwan and Jotiyar mentioned like camps in Turkey, did you end up going to? 20:35 ZZ: No, we did not to camps of tents in Turkey. 20:38 AD: Or in Iran like after the war he said some people walked for days- 20:44 ZZ: A lot of people went to Turkey; a lot of people went to Iran. I do not know specifically where they went. 20:49 AD: So, you did not go there? 20:51 ZZ: I think we went to one of the borders in Turkey, but we never crossed over to the actual Turkey. 20:58 AD: Like a refugee camp or something? 21:01 ZZ: We did end up going there. There is more safety there, there is medical health there, there was, we stayed, I think that was like the best time of that whole year, there was water, there was not as cold and rainy anymore, it was starting to dry, the air was dry. People were starting to gather their families more. I do remember a period like that it is very rare how much I remember about that time, because it was not as horrific as the days before but I do remember some safety there, I know there was water, I remember drinking a cup of water and just realizing the thirst that I had for so long. 21:42 AD: Oh yeah. So of course, I am not even asking hygiene. 21:44 ZZ: No, there was no such a thing. 21:47 AD: There was no hygiene, right? 21:50 ZZ: We did have water I remember like vague memories of us playing with a hot water hose and just like watering ourselves down just for fun. I was the only hygiene I can think of. 22:02 AD: You can think of, yeah. So, after that, after the Gulf war then you went back to your home in Duhok? 22:14 ZZ: Yes. 22:15 AD: So, how was life after that? 22:18 ZZ: It was, if I have to compare it to a historical even, based on what I have learned about in the history of America, is that the Great Depression of America, the nineties twenties and nineties thirties. People’s homes were all destroyed. There were holes. Like gun holes or bullet holes, there were people’s house were robed. Everything was gone. We were robbed of a livelihood of anything we had. Everything was just gone. There were like, like I just said there were bullet holes in walls and the schools were all in complete chaos the people were just they did not know. They did not know what this meant. there was no food, there was no work, nobody had any money left, it was just nothing and then started to pick up the pieces one day at a time, one step at a time and that is, it took people a long time to find jobs to find money again to find source of livelihood. Ways of feeding the family became impossible. Like people started selling things they had no intention of selling. They would sell their houses so they could their babies. I know my sister’s only fifteen days old which probably would have been a two- or three-month’s old baby now, my parents had to sell everything they had just to provide like a sixteen-ounce bottle powder milk. That like a bottle of powder milk was costing hundred and fifty dollars for them which they did not have. So, each child was, I mean you had to literally, they started… kids starving to death. A lot of people did not make it or mentally, after that. 24:15 AD: You lived there a couple of years. 24:20 ZZ: Yes, we lived there until 1996 and then we moved. 24:29 AD: This is like really said I cannot even imagine it is just really- 24:3I ZZ: it is unimaginable. 24:38 AD: It is, but like probably after the Gulf War when went back to Duhok. I mean probably you will remember better, so how was like life. Like everyday life? You know like everyday life, you were getting up in the morning, you know get ready for school. Something like that, how was it? 25:02 ZZ: It was starting to get like your normal routine life. It was a little people were slowly to pick the pieces. The trauma that they had experienced it made it harder for them to move on. Like I said they was nothing left in the city. There were no resources coming in. If they were, everyone was fighting for this little bit of source. 25:30 AD: But was not that, UN was still helping right? 25:35 ZZ: It was still helping yes, but it was not enough, people were in that fear of a I must hold it and they will have that time again where my kids are going to starve to death, so there was a lot of hoarding around, and what little you had, sometimes we would go without dinner, we would just starving and they would put us to bed because there was nothing to feed us. You have to cry yourself to sleep. 25:59 AD: Oh my God. 26:00 ZZ: There were moments like that were we just, your parents looked at you and there is nothing to feed you. And they will put you in bed and like probably tomorrow would be a different story. You know we will have food tomorrow. Or whatever the food that we did eat was so blend there was no taste of them. People got sick of eating the same blend diet. 26:23 AD: What you were eating the most? 26:27 ZZ: I do not know if you what Savar is, it is like cuscus. Little dark grain, there was a lot of that I remember, there was, people who had flour or could purchase flour they would make bread like home-made bread. There was mainly that and like. 26:46 AD: So probably that have some protein- 26:49 ZZ: It did, yes it did. 26:51 AD: So then bread and that… 26:53 ZZ: meats and chicken and others they were just rare. Very little may be once a year like a Eids holiday or something like that. Even then it was like you had to spend most of your family’s fortune to buy a meal like that. 27:12 AD: wow, so were you still like celebrating like Eids? 27:20 ZZ: Yeah, I do not remember those specific days because they were just like very not as much as fun as they were before, there was more of a, because we were so young. 27:31 AD: but it was better before the Gulf War? 27:33 ZZ: Yes, absolutely it was. Before we would be doing the Eid, the kids would get candy, they would have nuuql, they would have- 27:52 AD: You had that going on before- 27:55 ZZ: Yeah, after this, there were no money to buy nuuqles, there were no money to buy candy, we had nothing that we used to have before. 28:02 AD: So, the war made things like really worse for you to continue. 28:06 ZZ: Absolutely. 28:07 AD: Okay. So, after the war did you have more like fighting or things going on? 28:11 ZZ: I do remember the adult fighting a lot, arguing a lot. 28:15 AD: but not like war, it was not never like a war zone again. 28:20 ZZ: No, I mean there were, there were unsafe because the Baath party was still around. People were very scared of who could they trust from now on. It was like, each person to their own at this point on. Each person was just barely hanging on. People became very mistrust; I mean they could not trust each other anymore. Families fell apart. Neighbors fell apart. But, yeah it, people started to move on slowly, but the progress took a long time, I would say at least the first three to four years even up to the point where nineteen ninety six when we left, we were so poor, we were still eating that blend diet, we sometimes may not had dinner. There was just blend and the cuscus, savar. 29:08 AD: So how about the people around you? What were they thinking, you know like they wished that war never took place? 29:18 ZZ: I do not know about that I was too young to go onto politics at that time. I did not know, 29:21 AD: Not politics, like for the conditions, 29:26 ZZ: I still do not remember. 29:28 AD: What do you think today? Do you think that was better for Kurds? 29:33 ZZ: No, that war took everything from them. They had worked so hard and to get where they were and all the sudden it was like the foundation was just taken off underneath them. 29:50 AD: Really? Oh wow 29:51 AD: Oh, maybe I should ask some question to your mom, but that is okay, alright but we are not done yet, we are still in Kurdistan. Yeah, we have not even made it to United States [laughs] 30:00 Someone: Do you want me to get Erdem here? 30:02 AD: Uh, Yeah, he can come if he wants. So, but, oh my God, so that is what you think, but today now you have now more freedom in Kurdistan. 30:27 ZZ: Today is fine, yeah there is like- 30:30 AD: [crosstalk] go through that torment and torture. 30:35 ZZ: The whole world did not lead the Kurds to where who they are today. It was fall of Saddam Hussein that led they Kurds to where they are today. It was after he was gone that the Kurds. 30:54 AD: After the second Gulf war basically. 30:57 ZZ: After the second Gulf war yeah. It was 2003 when the fall of Saddam Hussein that the Kurds finally, the Kurds of Iraq at least that got their freedom back and they got to explore opportunities and become more educated. Food was not a big thing on their mind anymore basically. They basic necessities were not the first priorities anymore. 31:27 AD: So, then you told us why you guys you came to United States. So, let us see how things started to change, like where did you arrive? 31:52 LC: I have a question for her. 31:54 AD: Okay go ahead. 31:55 LC: So, the job that your dad had caused you to come to the United States? Did he have that before the first Gulf war? 32:03 ZZ: No, he did not. 32:05 LC: When he got that job? 32:07 ZZ: He got that I think two years, three years after the Gulf war. 32:22 LC: What he was doing prior to Gulf war? 32:26 ZZ: I do not know. [getting the answer from her mother in Kurdish]. He was a truck driver at some place called Ashghal. 32:41 AD: Okay, so he was working as a truck driver and the war happened. So, I am going to ask some. I do not know what you have asked but maybe we can ask your mother about- I know I hate to bring you back to those days. 32:58 ZZ: No, it is fine. 33:00 AD: Okay. So, could your ask your mother like how she felt about like during the gulf war when you guys went up to mountains or like the border city in Turkey, what was her experience like what she remembers about that? 33:34 ZZ: [translating the question to her mother] She says she was telling him. 33:40 AD: All right, good. But I am going to ask something that I ask you. How did she think her life before the gulf war? 33:57 ZZ: [translating the question to her mother.] She says it was good, life was good we were in the Duhok city. [Speaking Kurdish] She said everything was fine before then till we had to run away. 34:21 AD: So, same feelings you had. 34:23 ZZ: Pretty much. 34:24 AD: Yeah. Okay let us go back to where did you arrive in the United States? 34:30 ZZ: We had to stay- after we left Duhok, we had to go to the Turkey border for one night. We were supposed to stay for one night and fly out. However, she was pregnant, she ended up going to labor that night. 34:45 AD: Wow. Who was born? 34:48 ZZ: My youngest brother who is sixteen years old today. He was born on the border of Turkey in the city of Botan I guess, because we named him Botan. 35:19 EI: Botan 35:19 ZZ: Jazira u Botan. 35:19 Halima Zebari: We named him after the city’s name [in Kurdish] 35:20 AD: Shernak. 35:20 Halima Zebari: Botan was born in Serbinye. [in Kurdish]. 35:21 ZZ: Yes, Serbinye I guess. 35:21 AD: Serbine? 35:21 Halima Zebari: Yes Serbinye. [in Kurdish]. 35:22 AD: That is the name of the town? 35:23 EI: What was the name Xatin [madam]? [asking Halima Zebari in Kurdish.] 35:24 Halima Zebari: Botan. 35:24 EI: In Serbin? 35:24 Halima Zebari: What does he say? 35:25 ZZ: Where is Serbiney? Asking her mother in Kurdish. 35:27 Halima Zebari: Serbine is the first Jazeera [island- not actual island, just name], after that the Slopey city comes, then the Jazera then Serbine. [in Kurdish] 35:30 ZZ: I guess there is Slopey, there is Jazeera Botan and then there is Serbin. 35:34 AD: I see. It is like a smaller town probably, but I guess it is closer to Şırnak, everybody knows Şırnak. 35:42 ZZ: It is not far from the border between Turkey and Kurdistan. 35:48 AD: I see. 35:50 ZZ: But that is when what happened. So, then we had to stay another night. Because she was in the hospital. 35:57 AD: So, she was in the hospital where were you guys? 36:00 ZZ: We stayed in a very muddy campsite with tents that was setup for us. 36:05 AD: I see. 36:06 ZZ: Like again it felt like we were back in the whole Gulf war. It was muddy. They were just throwing food at us, and this is us trying leave for safety. Anyways, that night left the following day they came picked my family. My mom was in the hospital we had no idea what happened. They just took her. We stayed in this tent overnight. In the morning they came – they usually would come bring buses and take people, take them to the airport. They took us to the city of Turkey where we stayed in a hotel for one more night, so she was safe to go. So, we stayed in Turkey, one more night and then the following day we got in an airplane, and we landed in Guam. 36:46 AD: So, you went to Guam first? 36:48 ZZ: Yes. We had to be cleared before we could come to the states. They put us in a military base, mainly for whatever did they needed the bases. So, we had to stay there for four months until they could find someone that could sponsor us here in the states. Until they could find residency for us. Until we could get immunizations and clearance and our paperwork is set. 37:11 AD: How was Guam? 37:12 ZZ: It was amazing, it was a heaven on Earth. 37:13 AD: You did not have to starve anymore? 37:20 ZZ: So much food that was so much luxury. It was luxury. We were on vacation for four months. But we were all looking forward to going to America. We did not thing Guam was America yet, and then we somehow everything came together we ended up moving to Binghamton here for the guy that sponsored us we ended up moving here. 37:39 AD: Just a second, this is such a delicious thing, what is in there? Clover? You have clover in it? 37:47 ZZ: No, it is cinnamon. 37:48 AD: Oh okay, well I think Uruguay has glover in it, I think so, but it is really good. 38:00 ZZ: It is different things mixed together. Yeah, and then we came here and moved on from there. 38:04 AD: Okay, so from Guam to where? 38:07 ZZ: To here, Binghamton. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ 38:08 AD: Oh, directly to Binghamton. So, you knew some people in Binghamton? 38:12 ZZ: We did not know them but the guy that sponsored us knew somebody that we know. It is like my dad knew somebody that knew this guy, and then– 38:20 AD: Who is this guy? 38:22 ZZ: He does not live here anymore. 38:25 AD: But he came here before? 38:27 ZZ: They were here five years before us. 38:29 AD: How did they come five years before you? 38:31 ZZ: They were the ones that went to camps in Turkey after the Gulf war. They stayed in those camps for five years and they were rescued over… were brought over as refugees. 38:43 AD: They lived in those camps for five years. 38:45 ZZ: Yes. 38:45 AD: Where can we find this guy, he might— 38:48 ZZ: He lives in Nashville now. 38:50 AD: Okay, so that is our next step. 38:53 ZZ: But there are still relatives live here, some of his, um- 38:56 AD: Really? 38:56 ZZ: Yeah. 38:57 AD: How can we reach them? 38:59 ZZ: You can reach them easily. 39:01 AD: Really? 39:02 ZZ: Yeah 39:02 AD: There you go. I think that will be interesting because they were here five years prior to you, so they may have some- 39:11 ZZ: They could tell you a lot more about the camp life because we went back to our homes or back to our cities and they lived in camps. 39:17 AD: Yeah, they lived in the camps. So, uh, then you guys came here and where did you live. You did not buy a house. 39:27 ZZ: No-no, we were put in apartments in downtown Binghamton around that area. 39:31 AD: Okay. 39:31 ZZ: The apartments were so bad, there were cockroaches and bugs and stuff all over, like it was the most disgusting apartment ever. We lived in those apartments – because my family were so big, we lived in two apartments: one in the second floor one on the third floor. And you know through the charities and churches they provided us with some beds and furniture and stuff for the kitchen. And we were given some money from the social services and places like that. So, and they were paying for our rent, then after two three months our family it just was not right, we ended up renting a house so we could all stay in there. The house was eventually too small for us, and we were far from a distant from the school that we were attending to, or we were getting ESL lessons because English is our second language. And my dad was driving us, we only had one car for such a big family. It was not working out for us. Eventually we ended up moving to housing complexes in Binghamton, east side of Binghamton where we stayed for 10 years. It was much- and this is where we all learned English, we all went to school, we got education and life was good. 40:51 AD: So, your father like how did he get an income? Like you were on government air? 41:01 ZZ: The government was giving us; it was helping us a lot. 41:04 AD: Then your father started the business? 41:07 ZZ: No, he did not. He did not work. You had to either work or take classes, like English classes. He would took English classes because we could not find him a job that was decent, because he did not know the language. After a while, when some of my older siblings got out, they started working. We just took away everything that we were associated with the government, and we became independent on our own. We supported ourselves. But that took a long time. 41:39 AD: Obviously, yeah. So, all of you guys went to school here? 41:47 ZZ: Yeah, we all went. 41:49 AD: And all of you finished college? 41:51 ZZ: Alhamdulillah [In Arabic: ٱلْحَمْدُ لِلَّٰهِ, al-Ḥamdu lillāh, praise be to God]. Yes. I mean right now she is in her second- or third-year college. 41:53 AD: Yeah, and she is over? 42:00 ZZ: And she is only two to three years when we came here. 42:04 AD: Where are you going to school? 42:05 Aryan: BU [Binghamton University]. 42:05 AD: What do you study? 42:06 Aryan: I am going to studying English, to be a teacher. 42:08 AD: Oh, that is nice. So now one of your sister’s is Ridwan’s wife. I know she is a doctor. 42:17 ZZ: She is a radiation therapist. 42:19 AD: She is not a medical doctor? 42:21 ZZ: No, I have a sister in medical school in Long Island. Dezheen. 42:26 AD: Okay, did I meet her? 42:28 ZZ: You have never met her. 42:30 AD: Was she at the event? 42:32 ZZ: No, she has been off for two years. She only came back like one weekend at a time. 42:36 AD: Okay. So, I know Karwan is an engineer. 42:40 ZZ: Karwan is an engineer he works with KRG. I will tell you from the top to the bottom. 42:42 AD: Tell me from the top to the bottom. 42:43 ZZ: Ismael was the oldest one. He was the one he got civil engineering from Utica University. He could not find a job when he needed to help my dad with the family. So, he got that translation job over in Fallujah and then he died three –four months later. Next it is Shivan. Shivan has master’s in Software and Engineering from Binghamton University. He works at the BAE locally. He is now the head of the household, because in our culture the oldest son is the head of the household, our father hands it over basically. 43:18 AD Okay. 43:19 ZZ: So that is Shivan. Older than Shivan is my sister Zhyan, she went to BCC and then she went to Binghamton University for accounting. She could not finish because she got married, she got kid and she is still in the process of finishing, she has several years. 43:35 AD: So, she does not live here? 43:36 ZZ: She lives in Binghamton just not with us. 43:38 AD: Okay, she is not in this house. 43:40 ZZ: She is not in this house. She lives separately with her husband. And then it is my sister Berivan. She works at Wilson Hospital as a Histologist. She got her degree from Broome Community College. Then it is my sister, Havrist. She is a Radiation Therapist. She sent to Syracuse University. And she is currently working on her master’s in Management, Medical Management or something. 44:06 AD: So, you guys all either in engineering or medical except you. [laughs] 44:11 Aryan: Except me [laughs] 44:15 ZZ: Then it was Karwan. And he got his degree from university, and he continued here and got his master from Electrical Engineering, and he went to DC. He works with the KRG now. He went to politics. And then it is my brother Hariwan. He lives in Kurdistan currently. 44:31 AD: He does? 44:32 ZZ: Yes. He got master’s in Architecture from North Carolina, and he is a teaching as a professor in Kurdistan right now. He always liked to live there. 44:43 AD: Okay, in Erbil? 44:44 ZZ: No, Duhok. 44:45 AD: In Duhok, okay. 44:48 ZZ: And then it is me. I got my master’s in Nurse Practitioner. I do not have a job yet. And then it is. Dezheen. 44:56 AD: I am sure you will. 44:57 ZZ: I am sure, I hope so, InshAllah [God willing]. And then it is my sister Dezheen. She is in medical school in Long Island. Then it is my brother Renjbar. He is in Colorado in Pharmacy School. 45:10 AD: Oh my God. Good Job. Maşallah [what God has willed]!! 45:19 ZZ: Then it is my sister Bizhyan, she just graduated from Broome Community College with her degree in Education. And then it is Aryan, she is doing English at Binghamton University and Stereen and Botan are still in High school. Stereen is going to nursing school at BCC in the Fall. 45:28 AD: How about Botan? 45:29 ZZ: He is too young. We do not know yet. 45:31 AD: The boys go to Engineering. 45:34 EI: No-no. Make him political science. 45:36 AD: [laughs] Why? 45:37 Aryan: Lawyer. 45:38 ZZ: My dad does not like lawyers [laughs] [Speaking Kurdish in the background] 45:45 ZZ: He wants to be a Neurosurgeon. 45:50 AD: And I want my daughter to be a neurologist. 45:55 ZZ: There you go, they could work together. 46:00 AD: They can work together. They can pass the call to each other. How is that. He is sixteen, she is ten. So perfect. That will be good. Yeah, so, you and your mother ask her as well do you miss home? 46:11 ZZ: [speaking Kurdish] She goes every year. 46:32 AD: Oh, she does? 46:33 ZZ: She goes every year. We were there last year, last summer she were there for three and a half months. 46:35 AD: Her siblings? 46:36 ZZ: Yes, she has three siblings there; one sister and two brothers. Her parents are still alive and well. Alhamdulillah. 46:44 AD: Her parents are still- Wonderful. 46:47 ZZ: It is her brother’s wedding actually this summer and it is Bezhyan’s wedding there as well. So, they are going to go and have the weddings there this summer. 46:55 AD: Her brother getting married? 46:58 ZZ: Yeah, her brother is my age. Her father only had, his first wife. He has two wives. In his first wife he had my mom and my aunt. And my grandma, her mom told my grandfather, her dad that he should he get remarried and have- because in our culture like having boys in the family to carry on the name is very important. And he only had two daughters. He did not really care, but my mom’s mom said you have to get remarried then have more kid. So, he ended up having- getting married and then he had two boys. This was late on his life. The oldest son is my age and the other…he ended up getting two boys. 47:41 AD: I see. 47:42 Zh - One is in my age, and one is twenty-five years old. 47:44 AD: Wow. 47:48 ZZ: And this is his wedding this summer. 47:50 AD: Okay, so you kid extended family? 47:53 ZZ: Yeah. 47:54 AD: That is very typical in Turkey as well, but in the city that is like disappearing but Erdem pretty much right Erdem? Like you have the extended family tradition is still continuing but that is not like really just for Kurdish families same thing for (mumbles) it is like rural setting it is still the same way and in some cases some people still continue in the cities and same thing like the male figure. 48:29 ZZ: The patriarchy. 48:30 AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Uh, so, here you guys you still continuing with the Kurdish tradition. 48:40 ZZ: Absolutely, yes. Actually, we have basically. 48:44 AD: So, like— 48:45 ZZ: you have something in your hand that is culture right now. 48:50 AD: Well, that is same thing in my culture, that is how we drink tea. Like when I go to visit him, he has to give me the tea in his glass he is like do you have to have a mug. I am like no. I do not want to have a mug. That is the way you drink the tea. So still cooking everything? 49:11 ZZ: Everything is Kurdish. I mean there is some, you know different stuff added on but there is still daily Kurdish rice and soups and meats and stuff like that which our basic foundation or daily intake and stuff. 49:26 AD: Yeah, like when you get up in the morning you still have the Kurdish breakfast. 49:31 ZZ: Absolutely, yogurts. [crosstalk] 49:35 AD: because this is not just… yeah. How is the breakfast? 49:40 ZZ: Breakfast is mainly consisting of yogurt, home-made yogurt, Tahini which like made from sesame seeds- 49:48 AD: I know, I put molasses in it. 49:50 ZZ: Absolutely, molasses and like baked potatoes broccolis and stuff like that just different varieties. The yogurts the tahini and the molasses these are the top three. 50:05 AD: Are the main things- 50:06 ZZ: And there is home-made bread. 50:08 AD: Homemade bread! 50:11 ZZ: homemade is always like the main thing. 50:14 AD: So, you do not have any cheese? 50:15 ZZ: Yeah, cheese too. Which is not big on, my family is not big on cheese. 50: 20 AD: But it is part of the breakfast? 50:22 ZZ: It is part of breakfast. 50:24 AD: Okay, so then you celebrate the Eid, so those are the main— 50:30 ZZ: Yes, there is two holidays: the two Eids, one after Ramadhan and the one. The Haj Eid which is like two and a half months later. But yeah, those are the two big holidays. And we do have like basically traditional ways, we all gowned up in our Kurdish dresses. 50:49 AD: Which one is that? [mumbles] 50:50 ZZ: We dressed up in our gowns true cultural gowns we go to the mosque for the Morning Prayer, we come home, people visit us we visit other people. Kids get money and gifts and candies and stuff like that. 51:10 AD: And you have festivity. 51:12 ZZ: And then we have a big family dinner or lunch. 51:17 AD: Okay, so how about Newroz? 51:20 ZZ: Yeah! Luckily, we have not had Newroz for a long time. Recently just because they way that the families around here sometime have difficulty communicating, getting together for things like that but with the help of AKC we are starting to bring back things that would have neglected for a long time. Last year was the first time we like in 10 or 11 years that had some sort of Newroz. This year I mean. 51:45 AD: I see. So, what is it? Can you describe it? 51:50 ZZ: Newroz? 51:51 AD: I mean can you describe- 51:53 ZZ: It is like a metaphorical story. It is like a metaphorical Kurdish story where there is a city being oppressed by this major king and he has this disease were the only way to cure it is he has to take the blood of young men and supposedly their blood cures his problem or at least on a daily basis. And supposedly this king kills Kurdish young men on a daily basis and this guy named Kawa decided that instead of providing this king and his servant with two male head or two young male he is going to give one male and then one sheep in replace. And the each day he was going to take this young man and put him, hide him away and then eventually he says like the community of these young men grew up strong and he trained them and they become fighters and then they rebel against this king and they killed the king and when they won they lit a fire at the top of the king’s castle to let the people know that their freedom has started. This is like a metaphorical Kurdish story just to help the Kurds know that they will come out strong one day that they can fight this oppressive king. It is like because of the history we had it always gave us the hope that this day Newroz, March 21st is the day that we celebrate our freedom. 53:29 AD: Does it also represent the change of season? 53:31 ZZ: It does, it represents change of season; basically, initially is the beginning of the New Year. Pretty much. 53:41 AD: Yeah. So, you celebrate. I know like outside you build a fire to represent- 53:48 ZZ: Yeah, fire is one of the main attributes to this event because like I said when this guy Kawa when he killed the king he lit the fire, he lit a torch to let the people know of the city it has ended, oppression has ended. So, the fire for us is still, to this day we still light fires and we light torches in celebration that day like this fire represents freedom from that oppressive king. 54:14 AD: I see, I see. So, there is that. At home what do you do? 54:19 ZZ: Not much really. 54:20 AD: No? 54:21 ZZ: No, not much. People in Kurdistan they go all cultural, they gowned up, they go to picnic, they go to outside with their families, but here is winter, we are not going to do it here. 54:35 AD: Yeah, like what picnic? Double pneumonia? [laughter] 54:39 ZZ: But anyway, back home it is full bloom spring at that time. All families get together, they go and picnic. They have dancing parties; I mean it is like the full shebang. 54:57 AD: Oh yeah. so, but also weddings are big part two. Right? Big celebrations? 55:03 ZZ: Absolutely. 55:04 AD: So, when are you getting married? 55:06 ZZ: I do not know yet, InshAllah soon. 55:08 AD: So, we will come to your wedding. 55:10 ZZ: You can actually come to Karwan’s wedding it is on July 4th and 5th. It will be here locally. 55:16 AD: Oh my God, he even did not tell me. 55:18 ZZ: He just got the invitations I do not think anybody got them. 55:26 AD: I will get on his case. So, he is getting … well we are going to weddings. I go to... No, this summer July 5th, my mother- my sister is married to a Kurdish, Turkish-Kurdish, whatever But the whole thing moved to Germany like, they are not really continuing with a lot of things, but for weddings and stuff then you see. 56:03 ZZ: Even with us too, at home I think my family and a couple of families here wear more Kurdish traditional at home than some the other Kurdish here. They are more prone to more westernized- 56:20 AD: Well, I mean cooking and stuff you see it but like here when I come here, I feel more you know like traditional than when I visit his families, his relatives, but the weddings is like Zurna, it is the same way in Kurdish. Am I right? 56:43 ZZ: Yeah, pretty much. 56:44 AD: And then the drum and the whole dance and thing. So, they had this henna night. 56:53 ZZ: Yeah, we are going to dance on July forth is the henna night, and July fifth is the wedding. 57:00 AD: In German community like the Kurds living in German, the way they do it is like usually I think in Turkey the way they do it like women celebrate by themselves, then crowed In Germany it is like a mini wedding. So, the henna night was like three hundred people, I am not kidding you, and on the wedding was one thousand people that big. And so, when we entered the henna night the music started, my daughter started dancing and then the music stopped she sat down. Same thing, she loves dancing [laughs], and then everybody was oh God she is just little Kurdish girl – no hesitation, she just dancing and separate people. 58:07 Aryan: You are going to do that for my brother’s wedding. 58:10 ZZ: We are going to have a similar wedding here. On July 4th, the night- 58:14 AD: Okay, mark the calendar. 58:16 ZZ: July 4th is the henna night. It is going to be in the Days Inn, and it is one of the big houses. There is going to be dancing [crosstalk] And then on July 5th, wedding day also the same thing. [crosstalk] 58:55 AD: Then, we will do your wedding. Speaking of that, because I asked this question to Nirgiz, I will ask you the same question. Will you marry someone other than Kurdish? 59:00 ZZ: Personally no. 59:01 AD: No? 59:02 ZZ: I am like I am who I am. I do not want to ever give up who I am. I think my history and my roots are still engraved in me, I will never, I mean fate, God will lead you to whatever He want, If I have to personally choose I would much rather with someone understandable, like have the same root, that has the same thing as me. I am not saying that the other people would not understand, but I would much rather culturally I would rather be with someone that I can relate. 59:43 AD: Would you think, with you go with someone, let us say someone from Turkey, Kurdish. 59:45 ZZ: Yeah. 59:45 AD: But not- 59:46 ZZ: That is fine, yeah. 59:47 AD: As long as ethnicity is Kurdish- 59:49 ZZ: As long as they are Muslim, they are like Kurdish, but going outside my culture is not really what I want. 59:50 AD: But what if they are not Kurdish but they are Muslim and they accept you the way you are? 1:00:00 ZZ: I have had a lot of Pakistani Muslims at the hospital and other like Iraqi and Arab that are doctors. I am just, I cannot get that communication with them. 1:00:19 AD: But it is going to kind of hard to find your Kurdish doctor. 1:00:23 ZZ: No, it is not bad there is a lot of Kurdish out there 1:00:30 AD: Okay, so may be when we do oral history in Nashville and New York city I will keep my eyes on. 1:00:40 ZZ: I did not even make you a match maker now. 1:00:45 AD: We will make the recommendation- 1:00:48 1:00:49 ZZ: Thank you. 1:00:50 AD: Yeah, because here I think your family and Nirgiz’s family are like, Nirgiz is also well educated like her sisters as well, so big families. Yeah. So let me see what else. You do not know so much to talk about? 1:01:05 ZZ: I ask my questions a lot, my parents, they do remind us, like I cannot neglect my history 1:01:10 AD: but it is like what you remember is really bitter memories, trauma you know. 1:01:15 ZZ: because as a young child that is why you remember like the traumatic experiences where there really happy moments. You do not remember the day left in between. 1:01:25 AD: you only remember like is bitter memories – trauma. 1:01:30 ZZ: And that was mainly daily living for us.it was a lot of traumas, it was a lot of crazy stuff going on. 1:01: 40 AD: But do you remember any like visit, like extended family and stuff over there? 1:01:45 ZZ: Yeah, there has always been a thing like extended families are always coming, they always visit if there is a sickness in the family or death in the family, an event in the family, a wedding or anything like that that was always visitation. 1:02:21 AD: I see. So, how about like here. I see here your mother’s family is still over there. 1:02:29 ZZ: I am not sure what you are asking? 1:02:58 AD: Here, do you have other relatives, other than your immediate? 1:03:00 ZZ: No, I do not. 1:03:01 AD: So, all your aunts, uncles 1:03:03 ZZ: All are back home. 1:03:05 AD: And do you go visit? 1:03:08 ZZ: I went ones. I went last year. 1:03:14 AD: Just ones? 1:03:14 ZZ: Just once. 1:03:15 AD: And what did you think? 1:03:17 ZZ: I did not like it. 1:03:18 AD: You did not? 1:03:19 ZZ: the climate was different for me. The people’s mindsets were different for me. I liked some of them, but it was stressful time for me because I was planning my brother’s wedding. It was a lot of like I was crying for time, I had to leave my job it was a very stressful time getting the time, the whole package the whole time together was tough on me, the experience was not as peasant as I was wanted to be. After the wedding was over, it was a little more pleasant because then I can relax a little bit but up to the end and as soon as the wedding was over, I basically had to leave. 1:03:53 AD: I see. 1:03:53 ZZ: So, Like the whole planning, organizing and stuff like that I was just like my time was spent on organizing stuff, and I had just left a very stressful semester, I was like one thing after another. So, I mean if I had to rate the country based on resorts and travel and stuff like that, I think it was very nice. I loved it. I loved the time that we took to just go explore the villages and like the Erbil city. 1:04:25 AD: How did the city look like? Better than- 1:04:27 ZZ: Oh my God, everywhere there was construction, there was like houses and buildings popping up everywhere. 1:04:37 AD: Do you see still like effect of war? Like the areas 1:04:41 ZZ: Not so much, because every other house is under construction, and if it is not renovating the house because the house in the middle of already fixed. So everywhere is renovated everywhere is different. You will not find a place that worthwhile. 1:05:00 AD: I see. 1:05:01 ZZ: Because there is, the city has expanded so much, the people have you know taken care of it. There is still into plant trees, there is businesses there is schools, there is new schools, there is, everything is renovated now. If not done, it is halfway there. It is all different now. 1:05:19 AD: Okay, well I think Zhiman that is pretty much wrapped up. I am just going to turn this off. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zhiman Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/79d496f0c5af508d2d1c28c99eb611da.m4a 09ec821dc466fa4700bc20f49a171e35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Logan Bretz and Heaven Germann Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis A. Kalashnik Biographical Text Dennis A. Kalashnik is a Russian-Ukrainian Immigrant and business owner. He was born in Krasnodar Krai, Russia and came to the States in 1991 when he was four years old. Both of his parents are Ukrainian. He is currently married and resides in Endwell. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:20 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-13 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kalashnik, Dennis A. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia -- History; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=DennisKalashnik.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Russians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Russian-Ukrainian Baptist Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Dennis A. Kalashnik Interviewed by: Logan Bretz and Heaven Germann Transcriber: Logan Bretz and Heaven Germann Date of interview: 13 April 2016 at 3:00 PM Interview Setting: Starbucks, 904 W Front Street, Binghamton, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Logan Bretz: [Music playing in background throughout the interview] Hello Dennis, my name is Logan and this is Heaven. We are going to ask you some questions today. First, we would like you to introduce yourself. What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do for a living and what do you like to do for fun? Dennis Kalashnik: My name is Dennis Kalashnik. I live in Endwell. Here. Locally. Uhm. I ah came here to the States in 91 from Russia but I am Ukrainian. My parents are both Ukrainian. Uhm. I like to fix cars. Eat out. Pretty much. That's about it. LB: You said eat out-- DK: Make money [Laughter from all]. LB: Make money! Where is your favorite place to eat? DK: Uh, probably the Japanese Hibachi places. Either Fuji San, Fushimi or Kampai. One of those. LB and Heaven Germann: Ah okay. LB: Okay. So, where were you born? DK: I was born in what is now Russia. It was Soviet Union back then. Uhm. It's Russia, Krasnodar Krai, which is Southern Russia, near the Caucasus. Yeah, it's a little warmer than here. LB: Do you remember anything from growing up? DK: Yeah. A few moments uh because I was about four and a half when I moved here. So I remember some like highlights I guess, like you know, events, birthdays, stuff like that you know? Cute little scenes from my childhood. LB: Would you like to share any? DK: Uh, well I remember I had ah my appendix removed when I was little. So I remember that. I was like almost three years old. I remember having the surgery, going under and I remember, you know, family meeting us and getting gifts and stuff like that. And I remember ah, in ah where we grew up, we had a lot of people immigrate to the states so it was kind of like a tradition to go to the railroad station and you know, wave people off. And like. HG: That's really cool. LB: Yeah, that's really neat. DK: Yeah. So people would take the train to the nearest bigger city and then take the airport from there to Moscow and then fly out of there to JFK. LB: That's so neat. DK: Yeah. LB: Uhm. So what are your parents like? DK: My parents? LB: Yeah. DK: Ah, my dad is, ah, well he came here. He was 27 and my mom was about 24 years old so they were relatively young. Uhm. Really hardworking. I think they have a strong work ethic. I think that's probably what they taught me the most. Uh, my dad and mom are from ah, well we all go to the Baptist Church here so kind of the main reason why we moved here was because they used to have religious persecution during the Soviet Union so once the uhm, you know, the iron wall was removed, they were able to immigrate and they took advantage of that. ASAP, I guess. LB: Do you remember anything about your grandparents? DK: Uhm, well when I moved away, both of my parents’ side of their mothers passed away when they were younger. My dad was like twenty years old when his mom passed away, so his dad remarried and uhm my mom's mother passed when she was four years old. So I only got to meet my grandfather's. They came here to the states to visit us when we already lived here and I visited them as well, a few times when they lived there, so. It wasn't really a close relationship because they lived so far away. LB: Okay. Uhm. Which family member would you say influenced you the most? DK: Uh, hard to pick one. They're really. We are actually from a really tight knit family where family is like means a lot in our family, so. Uhm. I think they're, both parents were actively involved in our upbringing and you know, so I wouldn't be able to pick one I guess [He chuckles]. LB: And also, what part of Ukraine did you or your family come from, [correcting pronunciation] come from and who do they most identify with? DK: Uh well, my, both of my, my parents' side are uh from like suburbs of Kiev. So, kind of like this from Cherkassy. Which is uh, I don't know, maybe 100 kilometers South of Kiev which is the capital of the Ukraine now. Uhm, and by identify. What do you mean, like? LB: With Ukraine or Russia? DK: I think I would identify more with Russia. I think I'm more sympathetic toward Russia because uhm, I don't really speak Ukrainian. I only speak Russian. During the Soviet Union, everybody spoke Russian there, so only, like during, in small villages people spoke Ukrainian. All the central towns and cities is more Russian. HG: And that was one of our uhm other question was what language did you primary, primarily speak when you were growing up? DK: Russian. Yeah. So kind of more like eastern Ukraine. You know, like everybody there speaks Russian pretty much. Although, I got married. Now, my wife is from Western Ukraine and she learned Russian actually in the states, here. When she moved here, she did not speak Russian at all. HG: Oh, that's really cool. DK: So, I uh remember she said like when she was growing up she would have some visitors come from Russia and they were like looking at them like they were you know, totally aliens or something. They would make of their language because it was so odd for them. LB: Was your family originally from Kuban? DK: Uh, yeah. LB: And when did your parents migrate? DK: When? LB: Yes. DK: Uh, ninety, ninety-one. LB: Ninety-one? DK: Ninety-one. Yeah. It was October sixteenth or something like that. Ninety-one. LB: Did they, did they migrate back to Ukraine and then come back? DK: Uh, well, my dad got married and my mom already lived in uh, Kuban so they got, my dad got married for like a year together in Ukraine and then there's just better opportunity for them and in the Russian area so they moved there. LB: And what did your parents do? DK: Back there? LB: Yes. DK: My dad was a shoe smith. Back there. He owned his own uh, store. He'd make custom made like stilettos and stuff like that that he would specialize in, women's shoes. High heels and that sort of thing. He had his own little gig doing that. Uhm, he went to school for that then started his own business. It was really hard having your own business back over there because you had to pay off a lot of bribes and try to order supplies and stuffs to run your business. It's not like here you can just go and call any warehouse or what not and get what you need. There you have to like pay somebody off to get, you know, supplies for your business, taxes, and all that stuffs. It's hard to run your own business. LB: That's really interesting. I did not know that. Uhm. Do you remember any stories they told you about when they came to America and when you moved to America? DK: Uhm, well. That's, I would say is pretty fresh in my mind too, when we moved here. It was kind of just, everything was so new. You know, you were really, really like aware of what was going on. Uhm so, I mean I remember just from landing here in Binghamton uh, you know, all of our relatives were greeting us that were already here in the states before we were. Uhm, back then it was the only way to get into the states; was the immigration was first open up to Jews. So like our cousins, they had to prove that they had some kind of Jewish roots and they were able to immigrate through Italy and then come here. And we were the first, I think one of the first ones that were able to immigrate directly from, you know, Russia to these to the states without going through some kind of middle country or uhm. So I remember them meeting us here. I remember going to Chuck E. Cheese and stuff. That was like a celebration. That was fun. That was like totally different. You know, jumping in the, you know, big arcades there, and they have the balls of the, with the, all that stuff, that was, that was cool. LB: Uhm, do you have any classic family stories, jokes or songs? DK: Uhm. Well like I said, we are from a Christian family so we have a lot of us when we get together a lot of our uh I guess uh conversation and we would sing a lot of Christians songs, you know and a lot of Russian food. And uhm, so. The games we played as kids growing up here would be mostly like you know, American games, freeze tag and uh, you know, uh stuff like that. Soccer, basketball, even though that was more like we were kind of I'd say we were more like intertwined with American culture pretty quick. Because you go to school, public school and nobody wants to stick out, so [He laughs]. HG: Yeah, and that was uhm, going into that, can you tell us like your school experience here? DK: Uh, well, when I moved here I was four and a half so like within half a year I went to kindergarten. Basically the next following school year in September, I was started kindergarten. At that point I wouldn't, I wouldn't say like I had that much exposure to the American society here until I went to school. And I had I think a hard time at first uh because I had like, you come to school, you don't understand anything. Like what everybody is asking you. I mean like you know, you want to go to the bathroom, you can't explain yourself, you know you want to eat you can't explain yourself. You just hope they can figure out your sign language, I guess you know or you just get frustrated. My, my first, uhm first day of going to school. I was so excited to go and then I remember I came to school and I guess I didn't have the proper vaccination or something like that and they called me out on the speaker, pulled me out of gym class in front of the whole school like made me seem like I was like some kind of you know diseased kid or something like that. They put me in a taxi and sent me home. So, from that day on I hated school. They ruined it for me [He laughs]. L & HG: Awe! DK: First day in. So. Uhm, I mean I just kind of did what I needed to do to get by and. I remember I got lucky actually. There was one girl in my class who was Ukrainian and she was there I think a year before we were and she knew some English. So she would like kind of translate and because of her, I was able to pick it up a lot quicker. LB: That's nice. Did you have any memorable teachers? DK: Uhm, yeah. I remember there was some uh when I moved to Vestal. I went to vestal from second grade until I graduated. Uhm, I remember uh Mrs. Smith, Ms. Smith. Uh, she was really nice like when I just moved there, she was like, just welcomed me very well into that class that I was in. I remember making her project and stuff like that, and you know, dedicating it to her and then, what's funny is I moved to Endwell after I got married and she's my neighbor now. So [He laughs]. DK: So I got talking to her. I'm like oh she has a familiar name. So, we're actually next-door neighbors now so. Yeah, she was the nicest teachers that I had when I was growing up so, that was cool. LB: What is one of your favorite memories from your early schooling? DK: Well, like I said, that one getting kicked out of school. -- I don't know. My family, let's say like some families are very oriented toward education and they push their kids to you know; get a degree and what not. Our family wasn't really like that. They were more about I guess working hard and -- just being decent humans. You know, they would instill good morals in us. We were very --involved in church. -- That was -- that, I think that's the most centric thing in our family, is religion. I think. -- And if like school work or school activities took time away from that, that was supposed to be, I guess placed on, you know, a second priority. So we weren't really involved in too much -- after school activities or anything like that. Did our work. Did what was asked of us and went home. Helped out around the house. -- Went to church. I had a lot of friends around the church and, a lot of kids there, so. LB: What were your friends like? DK: -- There's all of us are pretty similar. Like to play American sports--. Like to, I personally like to fix cars. They all had hobbies around cars, being boys and all. -- Just very active. Just normal childhood. LB: And going back to your school experience, did being Russian/Ukrainian affect the way you were treated? DK: -- I don't, I don't know if it was. Well, we try to stick with our own I guess. When we went to school, at least because we're not even. Although I'd say we are kind of first generation American, but I mean we aren't really. Because--Just being like, kind of growing up in a really big like Slavic bubble protected us I think from too much American influence at once. So when we went to school we would have friends that were you know were just like us that knew our culture. We kind of hung out together so that kind of made us I think stick out a little bit at school so. Kind of, they protected our back you know in school fights and stuff. And nobody really messed with you because you had a group of loyal friends and stuff like that. So that was kind of neat in a way but I also think it's kind of not really good because you didn't really intertwine too much too. HG: Going back to what you said earlier how there was the one girl in your class that was Ukrainian. Did you remain friends with her? DK: --We kind of, lost track after I moved to Vestal, when we were little. But, I mean now, like, growing up I still see her around town here and there. I think she got remarried, got married to a Bosnian guy. So, I see her and I recognize her face but I just say hi or whatever. But not really close friends, yeah. HG: So, you said earlier that religion was very important to your family. Do you mind if we talk about your religious aspects now? DK: Mhm. Sure. HG: So what is your overall religious background? DK: -- Christian protestant which is -- a church that separated from the Orthodoxy churches. -- That being -- kind of based on Martin Luther's theses and stuff that he posted and all so basically that you're saved by faith. And it's not like an Orthodox church is when you're small you get christened into the faith and you're kind of a nominal Christian. Here, you grow up and you have to choose it at your own time. So, when you accept Christ, you get baptized in the church and then. You live, you know, based on your faith and not feel like, because of your parents were Christian and what not. So, that's kind of the basis of it, so. HG: -- Would you say that your religious beliefs have changed or adapted in any way to like American society or is it still? DK: No -- I would say they're probably the same as when people like used to live in the Soviet Union. Probably the same style church here. Hasn't changed much. All the values are the same, all the traditions are, I would say that pretty much all of the traditions back from Russia or Ukraine. Just, when I go back there to visit, I go to the churches there, it's, it's the same thing. HG: So, how many times have you gone back to like Russia since being here? DK: -- Five times maybe? Five times? Our mom would send us back there -- for the summer. So, we'd go there and visit our relatives. Hang out there in the summertime and that would help us preserve the language, the culture, traditions. HG: That's really cool. DK: For our parents, that was important for us to remember the language and so they tried and made an effort for us to go there and -- my mom taught me I think, how to read and write here. When we were at home, she would just take the -- alphabet book and I mean taught us how to read and practice our writing. We also have like a Russian school which is within our church -- on Saturdays. They have -- classes. They get all the kids together and they teach them how to read and write in Russian. So that helps too. LB: So when you would go back to Russia, is it, did it change over the years? DK: -- Well, it's more westernized. You know. During, when we just left -- the Soviet Union fell so there's a lot of poverty there and a lot of -- corruption stuff like that. And ever since the president there changed, it's kind of been normalized and things gotten, there's a lot more order there. Well, you see a lot of the style of shopping for instance, they used to be markets and stuff and now they have malls like we do here too. So, they got rid of all that stuff. And, so you go to the mall, there's ice skating rinks in the mall, there's carousels in the mall they have McDonald's they have, you know Asian restaurants, they have American food, you know. So it's very similar, you know. The transportation system is the same. Cars are the same. They import everything. So it's just like a normal place. The only thing different is you come there and everybody speaks Russian. That kind of startles you. First of all you're like oh that's weird! Everybody understands what you're saying and stuff like that so it's kind of. You get this homey feeling too when you go there. So, that's cool. HG: Do you have like any, like favorite memories from going back to Russia when you would visit your family or just being there? DK: -- Well, when we went there like the last time I went there was in 2009. I got married in 2010 so then it was harder to go and travel because it's more money now and you got bills to pay. HG: Yeah. DK: But in 2009 when I went, --, my mom's side is, --, the relatives that all live there and they're very hospitable so when we go there they make an effort to, you know, treat us to, you know, all kinds of places and take us to the, uh, Black Sea there for instance. We got to go to Sochi where the Olympics were, um, all the resorts there. And one of my uncles made uh like uh a euro trip sort of thing for us. He paid some guy to uh take a van and just take us down to the sea, he took us to Moscow, took us to Saint Petersburg. We got a lot of tourism done. And he kind of made it possible for us to experience the culture there so that was really neat and interesting. We weren't just stuck sitting at our grandma's house or something like that you know, something boring. We actually got to see the country so that was fun. LB: Mhm. Back there do they follow different traditions than you do here? DK: -- like it's just a different way of life. The people are different a little bit. -- Here, everybody smiles I would say, and but you leave maybe behind your back they would say something different. There they just say it straight up to your face if they don't like something. People are more blunt and I think up front; less political correctness there -- kind of like Donald Trump. [Laughter] So we can relate to him I guess. You'll go to a store, you know, if you want to touch something and just look at it they'll flip out on you. Why are you touching it? Are you going to buy it or--? That's one thing is like, customer service is like nonexistent there. They just don't want to waste their-- You know they see if you're wasting their time. Their actually, if you have money, they can tell by the way you're dressed or what not and they'll-- They, they judge you right automatically if they can make money off you or not or you're just going to waste their time and beat around the bush. They'll just tell you, you know, don't-- get along. LB: Going back to, going back to religion, can you describe a holiday mass at your church? DK: -- well, we have-- like I said, our-- our-- origins are from an orthodox background so there's some influence from orthodox churches. Like some of their traditions, for instance, we just celebrated Easter-- the Orthodox Church gets up really early and they go to-- go to church. -- celebrate their holiday-- like we still have that tradition too. Like we'll get up really early in the morning, and we have service at 6 am. You know, we get up with sunrise and go-- our typical service there would've been like-- like we have bands playing. We have a lot of kids programs and stuff. They learn a lot of verses for the holidays. They dress up-- everybody dresses up special. And -- so we even have like food afterwards, so. LB: What kind of food would you have? DK: -- well you get halupki which everybody knows that. So you get that. A lot of mashed potato -- different salads. So-- barbecue going on. Shashlik, which is like a chicken spiedie sort of thing. So a little grilling going on. HG: That sounds good. LB: As you were growing up, was the food different? DK: --, like right now I prefer more American food. Like when I go out-- I like to go out because at home I would eat Russian food and stuff like that and I kind of like American food more, because it's just variety. For me it just feels like if I want to go out somewhere I don't want to pay for something that I could eat at home. Although our food is good, I just want something different. LB: What kind of food would you eat that you didn't like as much as American food? DK: -- I like-- well I like steak and stuff like that like they have-- they cook meat on like barbs but it's not like steak. They do like pork and they'll chop that up and put it like on spiedie sort of thing which is good too -- and I like-- I like burgers too [Laughs]. DK: I like American classic cheeseburgers. Sometimes you want that and you can't get that at home. I mean you could cook it but I'm lazy to do that so. HG: You said growing up how your family would keep like the-- some of the traditional Russian like dishes and stuff. What were some that you remember like growing up? DK: -- We get a lot of canned-- canned vegetables and stuff during the fall. My mom would do a lot of canning like jam, and -- she really likes that. Mushrooms. I really like mushrooms and mashed potatoes and I like-- smoked fish, so. That's kind of-- like if I was to eat at home that's what I'd prefer. And then there's crepes too. You know, your Russian version of crepes with strawberries and put Nutella on it too and what not, so. HG: -- So going back to uh, religion and your church, are you like involved in like any of your church activities? DK: Yeah. HG: Because you were telling us about the Russian stuff on Saturday. DK: Yeah I'm actually a youth leader in our church so I get all the younger kids together and we organize camps. --We organize a lot of trips, like this weekend we are going to go visit another Russian church in Wilkes-Barre. So we do a lot of communication between our Russian network that exists here in the states. So I helped organize that. -- I'm also involved with the choir so I help conduct music. We learn choir music and um I preach in church too. So we have-- in our church we have a tradition where we have like 3 preachers so everybody gets a chance, in our church all the like-- all the men, young and old, so I'm involved in that. And I help out with cleaning and all that stuff in church too when need be. I cut the grass around the building if need be. I plow the snow because I lived the closest [Laughter]. DK: And everybody wants to borrow the key from me because I have it and people forget the key to the church they'll knock on my house to bail them out [Laughter]. HG: So um, is there any like maybe Ukrainian aspects you kind of hold on to or is it just more like Russian? DK: Uh well, you know, Russia and Ukraine are considered two brotherly countries, so. What I mean with that is, all the culture is so intertwined, uh, I really don't even know a difference personally, besides the language. It's just like a different dialect kind of like we have here in the states; southern and northern dialect. It's similar; theirs. All the culture is the same. The food is the same. Maybe they'll have a specialty dish that you know we don't have or something like that or vice versa but everything is-- I really personally do not see a difference. HG: Um, also when you travel, you said you've gone to Russia, have you ever gone back to like your hometown to visit there? DK: Yeah where we moved from all our, my relatives still actually live in that town -- so I got to, when I go to visit--. A few times, I went to see our house there where we used to live. Like, my dad built that house so it was kind of neat to go on that street and you know remember, a few memories come back. I mean you remember playing in the yard, because it has changed since we were. It was a new house when we built it and so the neighborhood was kind of vacant. It was just all new building lots -- now it's all developed. So it's changed a little bit over the times and it's interesting to see where you lived and walk around the streets, familiar places. HG: Yeah, I would agree that would be kind of cool just to go back and like-- DK: Yeah. HG: Look at everything and just see it now. HG: We are at a half an hour. DK: Yeah. HG: Help! HG: Okay, so which relatives or so would you have left like in Kuban, Ukraine, or Russia? DK: Uh like, well all my dad's side is from, while they lived in Ukraine. Umm my dad and one of his brother's moved to Russia. So all his side moved to the states, immigrated here in the 90s. My mom's side, she has two sisters that moved here and one brother. So she has another four brothers with big families there that refused to move here. So they're uhh nationalists, so they didn't want to come here. They consider us traitors for leaving. So, but just like in a friendly way. They're still very nice to us and all that, but they refuse to leave cause. Umm in Ukraine it was a lot harder, so anybody who lived there they tried to get out of there. Umm like Russia, had a little bit easier I think. They had a little bit more job opportunities, so a lot of the people were fine off there. Especially, after the 90s when umm Vladimir Putin became the President in the early 2000s. People the economy did better, umm granted they have more resources to thrive off of. But that did help develop the country, like economically and people just had more opportunity there and they were fine off there. Basically, if you have your own house there that's paid for you're all set, you know. And there's not as much taxes as you have here. Income taxes is like non-existent almost, real estate taxes are almost non-existent. The only thing you may have to pay is car insurance and that's kind of a new thing too. So if you have your home there you're all set pretty much. You don't have to worry about it. All you have to do is to make some money to put food on the table, its close. It's relatively doable. LB: So when you would go back and visit Russia. Where was one of your favorite places? DK: Well uhh, the town that I lived in is Kurganinsk, which is maybe like a 60,000-population town, so it's not that big, maybe like Endwell, here in New York. Umm so there's not much to do there except see your family. A week of that was good for me, then I'd try and split from there and go you know to the resort area or the beach. Places that were more busting and. Uhh so I think that Sochi was probably my favorite time spent. That was the best place to go. You can go skiing there and umm uhh go the beach. Like in the summertime you can go up to the mountains. 30, 40-minute drive from the beach and you got snow on the tops and then you go down it's just like 90 degrees' weather next to the beach, which is just kind of a cool place to see. And very beautiful. You got the mountainous area with like a bay and stuff like that. It's a fun place to go visit. You've got a lot of restaurants and you know beach life there. LB: Have you been back with your parents? DK: Uhh I went with my mom and dad, the first time, which was for a funeral for my grandfather and the second time I went with my mom. She really wanted to go and see her family. And the other times we left everybody at home and just went with my brother, because it was funnier that way. LB: When you would go with your parents would they reminisce with you? DK: Uhh. Not really. Everybody is. It's fun when you are visiting there but when you have something to compare like I mean I could live there if I had to, if I was forced to. I would be able to survive there, like I would probably have it easier than my parents, when they immigrated here because umm I know the language, which at least I can you know communicate with the locals there. Here they had to start from scratch, so I got that heads up if I had to live there. Umm but just the way of life here in America, everything is just more tuned in, for I think the way people live here is more comfortable. Just simple like shopping, like you go online and you can buy anything you want and they'll just like deliver it to your house. There if you want something specific you just got to scratch your head at where to get it. Like they have generic things but umm there's just so much shipping. Easier, the infrastructure here is uhh just more developed then there. They're a little behind in that. Like here you got UPS that'll come to your house you know, just drop it off. There you got to like wait for shipping forever and it's just easier I think here. LB: Interesting. HG: You said some more of your family also came over to America? DK: Yeah. HG: Did you stay in touch with them? DK: Yeah. HG: And have you visited them all around? DK: Everybody moved here first, initially to Binghamton. So uhh, my dad's brothers, my mom's sisters that were here before us. They lived here too and umm half of them moved away. Down South or to the bigger cities like Philadelphia, Charlotte, North Carolina, California. Umm I still have a few families that live here. We have a lot of cousins and stuff. I still have a lot of family that I keep in touch with. And my mom always made an effort for us to visit at least once a year all our relatives so we would keep in touch still. HG: Do you remember having any like big family gatherings while you were here? DK: Yeah. Well we have the Thanksgiving, like not that it's a Russian holiday or anything like that. It's just an opportunity to get together. Everybody has got those days off so, we took advantage of that, to meet up at one of our cousins' houses or our house. That was also crazy times, because you have so much people. Everybody has a big family and the houses aren't that big, so it was really crowded but it's fun. So we did that. And I think we occasionally get together with all the ones, all the relatives that still live here. Umm sometimes after church, for a BBQ or something like that. So we're kind of close, still intertwined and because we go to the same church too. I think that helps. We see each other all the time and I think every relative's family has you know somebody your age. So you got cousins your age and somebody to be friends with and you know it's when you get together, there's not a dull moment. LB: Mhmm. Who do you get along most with in your family? DK: Uhh. My immediate family? Well I have three brothers and I have no sisters. And all of us are like two-three years apart. I'm the oldest. I'm twenty-eight and my youngest brother is twenty-one. Uhh I work together with all my brothers right now so I get my social fill at work with them. I'll see them on the weekends too sometimes, when I go to my parents' house. So I'm very close with my brothers. LB: Within your family were there heirlooms passed down? DK: Uhh. No. Not really. Like when we moved away from there. We just kind of like traveling to the unknown sort of to America. Cause nobody's really been. We had one of our cousins, came here first. They were telling us how it was here. Don't bring anything with you. You don't need anything. They'll give you everything here you know. You got welfare, what-not. T' help you out the first time. So we sold everything we had. We left there. We just grabbed our clothes literally and we came here. So we didn't really bring anything. Just pictures from the old country, relatives and stuff. That's it. Nothing with real sentimental value, anything like that. LB: No. Do you remember what your house looked like? DK: Uhh, yeah, a little bit. It's changed a little bit over the years because we sold it uhh, it was almost done, but there were still a few places that weren't finished. So uhh when I went to visit I could see the changes. Garden in the back, a little bit gazebos, you know, stuff like that. We had an outhouse, when we used to live there and they made a bathroom inside, so those little things. So there is like uhh grape vines on, somebody planted that so. They got like a patio out in the front area and grapevines covering that so you can see like people set up outdoor tables and stuff there. So little changes. LB: And can you tell me about the floor plan on the inside? DK: It was a one-story house. There was like, walk-in, a kitchen. Uhh I think there was like two bedrooms. And there was like a living room-area. Umm we had uhh like a cellar, which was not finished. It was like a hole in the ground, where you could keep your canned food, there's some shelves. It' like different from our basements here. It's kind of like a third-world looking home. The ceiling or uhh the roof was uhh like made of metal sheets. It's not like, you have shingles here stuff like that. Just a little. Small little home. There was only two of us when, two of us uhh kids when we left there so it suited us fine. I remember the backyard had, like uhh big garden and so our backyard was connected to the neighbor across, who had a garden too, so they were adjacent to each other. Everybody lived like that. In the south people planted a lot of their own vegetables and stock up for the winter. LB: Hmm. Were you close with your neighbors? DK: Umm not really. Because it's kind of like when we lived there, we were uhh like Christian-Protestant and that was uhh looked down upon cause everybody, that country, the Soviet Union was based on atheism. And if you were Christian, you were looked at, like the enemy of the state. So all your neighbors kind of treated you bad. Cause they didn't want to kind of socialize with you. You were kind of looked at as outcasts of the society there. HG: So when you came to America, did you guys feel that you fit in better here and weren't like so out casted here, while still keeping in touch with your Russian roots and everything? DK: Well we felt, outcasted here a little bit because you were of a different culture, so it's just kind of a different umm segregation you could say. It's not like uhh you're going to get a hard time getting a job or anything like that but you couldn't get a good job, because you can't speak English and you're kind of weird. They put you somewhere in the back of the office you know. Less paying job. So, you couldn't get a good opportunity - you know good paying job unless you, you know had to get a, uhh you know go to school, get a degree in something. And that's like for my parents' generation that was kind of really hard to do. Because you know, you got two little kids in your arms that you just came here with. You got to pay the bills, so you ended up taking some crappy job somewhere. It's a hard laboring job and you work hard long hours to pay the bills and provide for your family. So we couldn't really move up. The only way to move up was kind of get your own business. Some kind of self-employed opportunity and then you could make some decent living. LB: Who did you get your hardworking attitude from? DK: Umm. My dad was hardworking but my mom's side is like more uhh. Well my dad had his own business there, so he came here with kind of entrepreneurial spirit. He had that. My mom's side is better at keeping money and managing it, so I kind of got a little bit of hybrid from both. So I got the work ethic from my dad but I'm more business savvy, I think from my mom's side. More strategic I think. My dad is just a hard-working guy. You know, try not to be a busy guy. Not to be a busy fool. You know, try to make money. LB: You said you brought over pictures. What was one of your favorite pictures? DK: Umm. I have this one album which is like only pictures of like uhh gatherings and just random day-to-day life. I think that's my favorite album. I have a wedding album that's brought. It's kind of cool to look at. I like the other one because it's got pictures of all our relatives. Umm like our dog we had there. My dad's motorcycle that he had. Just like cool little stuff like that. So I think that's my favorite one. LB: So in reference to weddings, how would they compare to weddings here? DK: Uhh well, for example from uhh if you're in a Christian background, you don't drink, there is no wild parties at your wedding. You have wild parties there too. Like people get drunk. You know make a big mess at the wedding. Or uhh the weddings over there are crazy, like if you are secular. So there's a lot of dancing uhh maybe wedding fights and stuff like that. It gets a little Jerry Springer over there. Umm but our weddings are you know more civil. So uhh like a typical wedding would be go to the cer- ceremony at the church. Then afterwards go to the reception. Umm you have a lot of songs, people wish nice things for you, bring you gifts, and umm we have the cutting of the cake and all that. Which is the same as over there too. HG: Umm going back to your religion, could you kind of give us a background on like your church? DK: Mhmm. Umm when our family immigrated here, there was one or two families that were Russian speaking. They were from the same uhh umm denomination as we were. And we used to visit American churches and uhh it was kind of hard for them to understand so they're like okay. Then a few more families started to move in here. And we were like okay why don't we start our own. So my dad was actually the one that organized the Russian-Ukrainian Baptist Church here. And he uhh him and our relatives and a couple friends, they joined up. And all the families had a lot of kids, like 8, 10 kids. So the church grew rapidly and you get families moving in. The 90s there was a lot of uhh immigration. The church kind of grew to a couple hundred members. And you know kids there, maybe up to like a hundred kids and stuff. So, like 40 to 50 people. So umm that's how it started. We were renting it first and for probably 15 years. Till we bought our own building, which was uhh Farmer to Market Road, across from Maine Endwell High School. The Spartan High School. It used to be Barrion Baptist Church, now it's the Russian-Ukrainian Baptist Church. There's a Presbyterian Church on the corner of Hooper Road and Farmer to Market. We're the second church. It's like that red brick building. HG: I think I've seen it because I've gone by that way before, so I probably have seen it. That's really cool. DK: We get uhh all the city gets together there to watch the fireworks and stuff on July 4th. So a lot of visitors. So uhh yeah that's how it started. Then we had people move to different places and then new people came moved from different states. We really-you don't really have a lot of immigration now. I mean we have a couple families that just moved from Ukraine. Uhh where Donetsk, Lugansk where the war is going on. So uhh they were uhh immigrated there as refugees. But otherwise there is no really big immigration going on anymore. Umm people uhh just kind of moving from different states, trying to look for a better opportunity I guess. Binghamton doesn't have too much opportunity here so people try to get out of here as soon as possible. My dad just moved here there was Endicott-Johnson it was in you know its dying days but it was still working. And he was a shoe smith so he got a job there. He worked there for a few years, then they moved to Texas. Umm, so just kind of, IBM was gone you know not a lot of tech jobs. You didn't have Locke Martin, BAE, umm but. Better opportunities elsewhere we're kind of stuck here cause family's here, the longer you live here, the more rooted you get, you know, you got a you got a house, you got a church, you got a business here. Umm so it's you know like the two lights on. HG: So you said earlier how you also went to SUNY Broome. DK: Mhmm. HG: What did you study there like get your degree in? DK: I was an aspiring dentist at first. Uhh I came here in 2005, I started to 2008 I got my Associates in Liberal Arts or Liberal uhh Associates in Science in Liberal Arts Degree. Did that and then I transferred to Binghamton University. Uhh I went there for one semester, then I got married, and then it was just hard to work and go to school and all that. So I quit that. Umm I wanted to be a dentist at first, like I said. And I think I just wanted to do that; it was to... I thought it was kind of a social status. Being a doctor here is cool. And they're respectable and they make decent money. And that's why I think, I wanted to go into that field. I started shadowing a lot of dentists, who worked in the dental office. And then uhh I kind of changed my mind on it. It wasn't the only way to make money. It wasn't worth all the student debt they're all in. I realized, you can make same digit doing other things. So I started my own business. Uhh I kind of fell back to dental laboratory. So I make uhh dental appliances, like dentures, crown-bridge, partials. Umm so it's kind of related to the dental field but minus the student debt. HG: Umm you also said earlier how you just you got married. Have you ever gone back to Russia with your wife? DK: No I would really like to but it's uhh kind of like a dream of mine. Umm it'd be really nice to, take my son. I have one son. To go there and just introduce my wife to my side of the family and meet her side of the family there. Her side's in Ukraine still. So uhh it would be really nice to do that. Yeah so, it's just a lot more money now. When I just left with my parents, you know you'd have to worry about the bills coming back and waiting for you. Uhh probably you'd just buy your ticket, which was like a thousand dollars and you know just some fun money. Because your relatives you know got everything else, you know the living expenses covered. Like 2 grand, is like more than enough to have fun there. Now it's gonna be like two tickets for my wife, for me, for my kid. So it's like 3 grand there, you know. Then we've going to have to travel to Ukraine and Russia now. LB: Hmm. DK: Uhh so. I need at least 5 grand to go there plus all the bills that wait for me when I get back. And all the time lost at work. You can't go for a week, you know. You need at least 2 weeks and that's Russia and everything. And that's not enjoying you time there. 3 weeks would be nice but working you can't afford to take 3 weeks off here and you might not have a job when you come back [Laughs]. LB: Can you tell us more about your wife? DK: Yeah she is uhh 5 years younger than me. Umm I meet her in New York. She's from Minneapolis. She uhh she moved there in early 2002 or something like that. She came here. I met her at one of the church events, one of the camps so. They came with their youth to our camp like I said our church network communicates. So they came here. Umm I met her after one of these typical camps. Started talking to her. We had a fairly quick wedding. I met her in our church and she left. Then in like two or three days later, I found her number on Facebook, started talking and chatting then texting, calling. Then a month later I went there, met her family. While I was there I figured I would propose while I'm there. LB: Aww! DK: So, I knocked it out in a month. And three months later, we had a wedding, which was here, in uhh Vestal. She moved here. And been married 5 and a half years now. LB: What was her family like? DK: Her family is very similar. She has a bigger family. We only have four kids in our family. They have seven kids. So she was one of the older ones. I'm the oldest in my family. She's the second oldest. So she had a lot of younger siblings still. Umm also very similar. Very hard, you know their dad's a painter, just typical trade work. Umm very close just like us. So she had a hard time moving away. She you know wasn't able to be as close with her sisters anymore because everybody is so far away. But her sister is getting married now, and moving here. LB: Oh wow. DK: Yeah, So she is going to have a buddy to hang out with. She can go shopping. I can do my guy stuff. HG: So you said you had, that one of your hobbies was that you like was working on cars? Why do you like working on cars so much? DK: Umm. Well one of the things is uhh my dad did them. For like that was one of his side jobs. He would fix cars, do body work. So I picked that up from him. Umm I don't think I-- I will correct myself, it's not really working on cars, it's flipping cars. Like buying and selling. So I like to buy cars and I don't know. I just like making money. And I think that's my thing. I found uhh I found my passion in life. Just so I can spend it and have fun you know? Get some enjoyment out of life. LB: I'm hoping I find that after college [everyone laughs]. DK: Yeah Yeah. HG: 12 minutes. LB: Is there anything else that you would like to add, that we didn't cover? Any interesting stories. A story about why your parents decided to emigrate? DK: Umm. Well, so I think my dad just got fed up with, the way of life there. Just the corruption, umm just wanted. Oh also now that I think about it everybody, all the guys have to go to the army there, when your 18 years old. So it was like a like a mandatory thing. Here you only go voluntarily if you want to. So my parents were kind of worried about that. My dad had a lot of brothers, and he knows how that life is. So he can, there is a lot of you know conflicts going on with Russia being involved militarily in campaigns, here and there. So they didn't want us to be stuck somewhere, and have to go serve, you know. Uhh so they kind of avoided that. Uhh nobody wants to raise their kids, to see them go die somewhere you know for some stupid cause. LB: Was your father in the military? DK: Yeah. He was uhh. Like I said when you're 18 you have to go serve for two years. But then basically every. You can, up until you have two kids or up until you're thirty years old or thirty-five years old. You can be drafted back in and be retrained and you have to update your knowledge. So there's always like you always get a letter. Come, go to the military post and go serve for another year or two. So like he was always trying to avoid that. Hiding out in relatives' house. And he moved from Ukraine, which helped. They kept sending mail there. So he was able to avoid that for a while. Till he had kids. Till he split from there. LB: Did he have any stories about the military? DK: Umm. Uhh. Like I said cause of religious persecution that kind of uhh. That that was affected in the military too. Like you were sent to the crappiest jobs there. You had to go like clean and like toilets or dig ditches and do the hard work. Nobody trusts you with a weapon anywhere. You were kind of sent to those kinds of jobs in the army. It's kind of more like a National Guard sort of style is where he was. Umm so, when you were there, people mistreated you, sent you to do hard work. But once he was there, after a while people realized you know, they're honest people, you can trust them and umm he had it fairly easily afterwards. He had uhh a good job where uhh he fixed boots and stuff for soldiers. He had it made afterwards. People would give him you know like gifts and stuff so he gives them nice boots, so they could go home and see their parents. He had a nice little sweet spot he found I guess. LB: Mhmm, he found his niche. HG: So did your dad only serve the two years that he had to? DK: Yeah. HG: Or did he serve longer? DK: Yeah he served the two years. Umm every time they sent him a letter, he was able to avoid it somehow. Some people try to get married early and have two kids before you're 18. I've heard stories about that. Avoid, find a loop hole. HG: It's like 9 minutes. So. DK: I'd say life in the states is good. Fairly. I like it here. Umm still have a sense of patriotism too. So it always kind of sucks when you see, you know, our government's conflicting. There is always this. Russia's trying to inspire to be a world power too and you know, America has its own interests. And it's always kind of worrying, when you hear rhetoric like that. So it'd be nice to get along [everyone laughs]. HG: It would be. Well thank you so very much for taking time to uhh let us interview you. We found it very informative. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dennis A. Kalashnik Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Kalashnik, Dennis A. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia -- History; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kalashnik, Dennis A. ; Bretz, Logan ; Germann, Heaven Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dennis A. Kalashnik is a Russian-Ukrainian Immigrant and business owner. He was born in Krasnodar Krai, Russia and came to the States in 1991 when he was four years old. Both of his parents are Ukrainian. He is married and resides in Endwell. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-13 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dennis Kalashnik.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 52:20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc6414cb847b92615528f12f157e893b.m4a 360ef79440082a875907dd9be6ef6bae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geraldine Czebiniak Biographical Text Geraldine Czebiniak is a Ukrainian immigrant who left Ukraine at the age of seven during the Second World War. She went to Germany with her family and stayed in a camp for displaced people. She migrated to the United States when she was 13 years old. She is&nbsp;currently a member of Sacred Hearth Orthodox Church and resides in Binghamton with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 50:09 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Czebiniak, Geraldine. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; World War, 1939-1945—Prisoner-of-war camps; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=GeraldineCzebiniak.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Immigrants; Ukrainian Catholic Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Geraldine Czebiniak Interviewed by: Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Transcriber: Sarah Joy Hutcher and Erman Sahin Tatar Date of interview: 6 April 2016 Interview Setting: Sacred Hearth Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Sarah Hutcher: Okay so, my name is Sarah Hutcher. Erman Tartar: And my name is Erman Tartar. SH: And we are here with-- Geraldine Czebiniak: Geraldine Czebiniak. SH: And we are here at Sacred Heart Catholic Church and we are interviewing Geri about Ukrainian life in Binghamton. ET: And first we want to start with how old were you and when did you immigrant to the United States? And how old were your parents and grandparents? GS: I was thirteen years old when I came to the United States I was seven years old when we left our Ukrainian village, our town that we lived in, my father was the principal of a boys school because they had a school where boys and girls were separated, he was the principal of a boys school and we had to immigrate because of the war, going back and forth, so we ended up in Germany when the war ended, World War II, than um so we were displaced persons as we were called then and we lived in a camp, they were schools made into a camp, we lived there for several years and the United States and other countries would take people into their countries to immigrate and that's why we immigrated to the United States after the war and there was a man here that my father's friend and he went to New York and saw this man at some kind of concert in New York and we had to have immigration, you had to have a job over here and a place to live and so this man signed papers saying he had a job for my father and a place to live. SH: Wow. That's crazy. GS: And that's how we came. ET: Yeah-- GS: Not like the way to do it now. SH: Right! GS: So, this friend of my father's found this friend from Binghamton actually. SH: Okay. GS: He was here and he said that he had a job and stuff so that's why we came. SH: What kind of job was it? GS: Actually my father was washing dishes at the old hospital, but it was okay because we were so happy to come here, we didn't care where he worked. SH: Yea, it was something. ET: Yeah, absolutely. GS: And then my mother got a job in the factory and it used to be a shoe factory, antigenic, but not anymore, it's not what it used to be and it was me and my two sisters that was my family, yeah. SH: That's sweet. And so, I know there were a lot of people working at the cigar, like the cigar factory, do you have any memory of that? GS: No, nobody that I know. SH: No? No one that you know? GS: No no one I know of-- ET: And you said you stayed at a camp after the war? GS: Yes, we-- ET: What was that like? GS: Well after the uh, actually, we stayed, at several camps, one camp was run by Germans and we were very worried that we were going to get killed cause that's when Germans were killing Jewish people and we thought that we were in the crowd that we were one of them so our lives were very always worried about living, that's all you worried about, living. Yeah, know? And um, so that camp was-- **Pause because the lights in the room when out.** ET: and your camp? GS: and the camp after the war, when the United States took over they organized all these people, and they had no place to live, they made the camps out of schools, building schools that was very nice because the United States treated us very well. There was no question about it, especially the children, we had extra, special care packages and things like that. SH: Yeah. GS: The children were um, SH: Treated well. GS: Treated very well. SH: And I mean, how old were you when? GS: When we lived there? ET: Seven years old right? GS: I was seven years old. SH: Okay seven. GS: We lived, when we left Ukraine, I was seven and when we left I was thirteen, August time was during the war and Germany and other countries right from Ukraine all the way to Germany. We moved from place to place to get away from the Russians. ET: Woah. GS: And so it was a rough, it was a very rough. ET: This is amazing, you're remembering, you were only seven years old, yeah. GS: I don't remember too many things about when I was little, you know, I don't remember, but the war and hiding, and running to the shelters all the time and I was little and I just, didn't want to leave sleep, I didn't want to go to the shelter but you know. SH: Even just going through that, even if you don’t remember it, still--. GS: Yes, yes, okay, any other questions? SH: Let's see what we got--um so when you got to Binghamton what was it like being Ukrainian here and um you know, did you notice a difference in your upbringing than like compared to like the kids that lived here? GS: I was, well, I didn't know English very well, I knew a couple of things yeah know in the camp you learn how to sing songs and stuff like that, I didn't understand the language, so um I was put in sixth great but I went to second grade to learn how to read and write and stuff, but it doesn't take long, when you're young you learn very fast. ET: Yeah, very fast. GS: A couple of months I was okay, you know? I was right where I belong, you know, and then I went to St. Patrick's and then I graduated from there. SH: Wow. GS: So I was okay, it was okay. SH: Wow. ET: I was just wondering when you came here did you, all family came here? GS: Yes, except my oldest sister, because she was older, she came like three months before we did. SH: Oh okay! GS: We were separated because she was of age. SH: Right. GS: I was the youngest of the three. ET: She have to wait here? GS: She had to, her visa came, her paper came three months before ours did, but it was okay because we knew she was coming here too, she was included in our family package, but she came three months before we did. SH: wow okay. So at least you got to be all together. GS: Yes, yes, we were very lucky because we used to ride together because there were many people, lost their parents or their children during the war, it was terrible. SH: Oh gosh. GS: So, SH: Thankfully you don't have too much memory of it. GS: I know, because it's amazing, my kids, I have four of them, SH: That was one of the questions. GS: Oh yeah? And they just are amazed we're as healthy as we are mentally, yea, but you live through that and your kind of forget, it's like a dream, a bad dream. SH: You got to keep moving forward. ET: Definitely. SH: I've met other survivors, and they have the same mentality. GS: That's right, you have to survive. SH: Just push forward. GS: That's right, no matter what country you are or nationality or the all lived through things, you survive it. SH: Yea, alright, so, where were your parents born? GS: My parents were born. Oh you mean city? SH: Yeah. GS: It's Ukraine, um, my parents, my father and my mother was from Stanislav, which is now called Ivano-Frankivsk, it was a city that they lived in, they were born there and then they, my father he went to school and he became a teacher and then a principal and then he moved to a smaller city and he became a principal of a smaller school it was a smaller city, it was not Stanislav. SH: And I mean there is a pretty decent sized Ukrainian population here in Binghamton, did they know anyone coming over here? GS: Well the person who signed that paper, he was Ukrainian, and he brought a lot of people over and then right away we joined the Church because we were Catholic and they communicant welcomed us so to speak. SH: That's great. GS: It was very nice. SH: Like a home away from home. GS: Yes yes, that's it. SH: It's easier to settle. GS: You have the church, you know. Right away and the church has the same language which was the same so that was very refreshing so to speak. ET: We are wondering; your friends are also Catholic? GS: Yes, that's right, they were, brought up from way back. SH: And so when you had kids was religion something. GS: Yes. SH: That was emphasized. GS: Yes, we were very active in our church and religion is very important to me, to us, and they all go to our church and I'm lucky because all four of them live locally. SH: Oh that's great. GS: So, we see each other at least once a week. SH: That's good. GS: They're all married. SH: Do they enforce it [religion] in their homes? GS: Yes they do. SH: Look at that. GS: So far so good. ET: Yes. GS: One of my daughters, the kids they used to go to the church and now they kind of broke away a little bit SH: They'll come back, they'll come back. GS: They'll come back, I hope so. SH: Maybe they just need a little time, they have to discover their own thing so-- SH: Yeah, very cool. ET: Did you have any household items or relics from the Ukraine in your home? GS: No. ET: Anything you remember from when you were a child? GS: Not anything, nothing because at one time or place where we lived it was bombed so all we were left were what we had on ourselves. ET: Yeah. SH: Wow. GS: We had nothing left so, nothing nothing that reminds me of home. SH: Wow. GS: Yeah so. SH: Have you ever visited Ukraine? GS: Pardon? SH: Have you ever visited Ukraine? GS: Oh no, but I've always wanted to, with four children and my husband, well he passed away, but I've been busy and never had the finances. I never had the money, when I had my husband we had to work because he says, you know, that's our family and we're to bring them up the way, you know, as you should be home which I did, I stayed home for eleven years and then worked, and then you know, we couldn't really afford to go back, I'd love to go but now now I'm too old and I can't walk too good, I have problems, too late too late. SH: You never know! Hopefully. ET: Your husband also Ukrainian? GS: Yes he was Ukrainian but he was born here, he was born here, we got married in our church because he was part of, he belonged to this church, and when I came you know. SH: How'd you guys meet? GS: Oh, in the choir. SH: Oh did you? That's sweet! GS: And I was quite a young bride but you know that was okay. SH: How old were you? GS: I was 19, 20 when I got married, I was young. SH: My cousin just got married at 18. GS: Oh yeah? SH: Which is very young. GS: Very young nowadays. SH: Nowadays, oh my gosh. GS: Because everyone gets married later. SH: My other cousin got married at like 37 so, it's different, definitely different. GS: To each his own. SH: Yes, but yea 19 is young. GS: Yup. ET: Do you think that there is a problem or an issue if they are not from the same culture? Like if not Ukrainian or Catholic Orthodox and want to marry at this time? GS: No I font think there would be any problems, no. SH: Do you think it would have upset you parents if you wanted to marry someone that wasn't Ukrainian. ET: For example, if you didn't want to marry-- GS: No not really. SH: Wow that's cool. GS: I don't think so. SH: I thought maybe they would. ET: Because sometimes a minority wants to protect their culture. GS: Right right, I never felt that, well you know I never felt that they would forbid it or anything like that they just, I got married to a Ukrainian and so did my sister and it just went on, my other sister also, it never appeared, it never became a problem so no. SH: Did you, you know, raising your four children, did you ever have special Ukrainian things in your household that you did, special holidays. GS: Yes we have lots of embroidered Ukrainian pillows, we did a lot of Ukrainian Easter eggs, I font know if you know of those. SH: We just saw them downstairs; they are so cool. GS: Yea they all know how to do those. They're very ornate. GS: they're very very, takes hours to do one, but they like to do this. SH: So your whole family does that? ET: Yeah, it's very cultural. GS: Yea, we love the American ways too but we have our own. SH: That was a question too! GS: As long as, I font have anything against living in the United States, they allow us to do this, to have your own culture, we you know so, we're very lucky, we love the United States, they gave us a life. SH: that's awesome, you keep answering our questions, you're doing awesome! ET: Very good. GS: Oh no! SH: No that's okay, that's a good thing. ET: How long did it take for you to feel at home and comfortable in Binghamton? GS: Um, I would say probably a couple of years. ET: A couple of years, I can understand that. GS: You know when we left there completely different kind of life. We had our own apartment, completely different kind of life, I would say a couple of years to feel at home. SH: Do you think it took your parents and your older siblings a little longer. GS: I think so cause younger people, they adapt. SH: Right. ET: A lot quicker. SH: They're flexible. GS: Yes, they are. SH: How long would you say, did they ever feel totally comfortable you think? GS: My mother, she didn't speak English very well, she went to the factory to work and she worked with people who spoke Ukrainian and Polish, so she didn't. SH: She didn't have to learn. GS: She didn't have to learn English. SH: Did she--. GS: My father did, he knew how to speak English. SH: In your household did you feel like you used Ukrainian more. GS: Yes, I font do that now. SH: I was going to say, are you still fluent? GS: Yes I am actually. SH: That's really cool. GS: My kids when they were little I used to speak to them in Ukrainian and once they went to school that changed a little and in the neighborhood they learned English, and they speak English at home now. ET: Right. SH: Do you think any of it stuck with them? GS: Oh yes. SH: Oh wow. GS: My grandchildren, Steven, has one of my grandsons he wants to learn Ukrainian, at school they're going to give classes so he wants to learn. SH: That's great. GS: It's great. SH: I was going to ask, and, I know I keep asking, did your husband speak? GS: Yes, he spoke it. SH: Oh wow so everyone. GS: We all spoke Ukrainian in the house and you know then they went to school and-- SH: It's hard to enforce it because everyone is speaking English. G: And the neighborhood, big influence. SH: Did you go to college? GS: No I didn't. SH: No? GS: I got married, I finished high school and I got married, I was almost 19 when I got out of high school because I was losing time during the war I didn't go to school, for almost four years I didn't go, it was like no life. SH: did you friends? Did any of your friends go to college or was it more common to just work? GS: Far more common to just work, you know. SH: And just settle down. GS: My children it's a different story, they all went to college, but that's different. ET: We were both wondering at this time did you feel any disconnection from social life when you came here. GS: not really I didn't not really, I never really felt that and maybe it was because we were amongst our own but then when you work, I worked in a hospital, I never felt discriminated against, I font know but I never felt that way. SH: That's good, probably ‘cause it seems more common, it such a large community up here. GS: Could be could be. SH: Now just out of curiosity, with the church population, is everyone Ukrainian? Is there a mix? ET: All different? GS: Oh no, some are married to English people or other nationalities, they come, they want to come they can, and some of them do come, some of them are married and are from different nationalities want to come and do come and they want to be a part of our church, and they're welcome to, and they feel comfortable, wife or husband they are connected in that way. ET: We want to ask, which culture do you feel has shaped you, Ukrainian or American, because you are so young when you come here, you are just seven years old. GS: Yeah, I would say American more. ET: What do you observe in yourself that is more American culture? GS: I don't know. ET: It's a hard question. GS: It's a hard one, American culture well maybe my other question, probably I should change it, because I'm more Ukrainian than American because we keep our own culture more or less so I, but American. SH: You could say both. GS: Yeah well both, that's the best way because a little bit of English and a little bit Ukrainian SH: Yea I mean one of my questions was um did you feel comfortable or I guess assimilated enough to celebrate, oh well I mean did your parents celebrate things like thanksgiving? GS: Oh yes. SH: All that stuff? Wow! You felt comfortable right away. GS: Absolutely yes, cookouts and Thanksgiving. SH: Your generation seems I think more grate than my generation to live where we live. ET: It's true, it's true. ET: Do you see the differences between your generation and the younger generation with faith maybe? GS: yea with the faith maybe a little different, the younger generation doesn't seem to be as connected as or as how you say it connected, definitely not as connected. They're more Americanized, which is okay you know there's nothing wrong with that but I feel like. ET: Are there any differences between the Ukrainian catholic culture and American catholic culture? Also catholic Ukraine orthodox? GS: No, the culture is different than the religion, the Ukrainian catholic orthodox is the same, we have the same services and everything it's just that the Catholic Church belongs to and is connected with the pope and that Vatican as the orthodox does not. That's the difference, but the services are not the same but similar, let's say it's similar. ET: What kind of things are similar. GS: The church service is what time talking about the service itself when the priest dresses the same as ours does even some of the prayers the same but they are font, the orthodox church does not recognize the pope as we do, that's the big difference like the catholic church. SH: and I'm not catholic, what does recognize the pope mean? Do they just not see him as being? GS: Head of the church. SH: Oh okay. GS: Because the Catholics are Latin right Catholics and recognize the pope as the head of the whole church, excuse me, the catholic church has a lot of right and we're byzantine rights and there are 22 right, 22 ways of serving God but they're still connected with Rome with the Vatican, so that's the differ and the orthodox font recognize him as the head of the church. SH: Okay and did you ever have a confirmation? GS: We are confirmed when we are baptized. SH: And what's when yours little? GS: Yes. SH: Oh I was going to say, did you have a confirmation in America? Ukraine? Germany? GS: No no. SH: So you don't remember? GS: That happened in Ukraine when I was little. SH: Little little, that's probably smart too. GS: Yeah. SH: Get that done early. ET: I was always wondering when I was a child I saw some Armenian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian orthodox church. What they are different? Why are they not the same Orthodox Church? GS: Why font they go to? Probably the language, I would imagine probably the language because I think if it was all in English it wouldn't all be different. ET: Yes yes. SH: anything you want to ask? You're like good, you're sticking to the script. GS: I'm glad you're asking questions cause to think about what to say. SH: It's probably so much. GS: I wouldn't know what to tell you. SH: I mean what has happened in your life in the first ten years is more than my 21. ET: I really wondered about this, did you remember the Soviet Union years. GS: Oh yes, I remember those few incidences when the soviets came to our town and our house , I remember we had holy picture on the wall and they threw them on the floor and that kind of stuck in my mind so much and I remember my mother had watches and jewelry and they took everything, and my parents we were just standing there and you couldn't do anything cause they would shoot you, if you say 'don't touch your something like they, when they came it was like ' just take whatever you want' and it was bad, it was bad, yes and then the Germans would move them back and the Germans would take over, and when the Germans would take over my father was arrested by the Germans. ET: Oh whoa! SH: For how long? GS: For a couple of months but the reason he was imprisoned because my uncle had a store and he was helping the Ukrainian underground army, fighting and trying to keep Ukraine independent and they were trying he was helping them and eventually and giving them food and the Germans wanted to know where the main office was and my was uncle arrested and my father, they had him in the next cell and they would beating my uncle to death because they wanted to know, they wanted my father to tell my uncle where is the main office? And where is the army the underground army and my father told them he couldn't tell him, my uncle what to do. So-- SH: Wow, so how old was your uncle, do you remember? GS: He was like in his early forties, like forty-two. SH: Oh my gosh! GS: And you know those boots the Germans had, I'm talking about Nazi's, I'm not talking about German people. SH: Yeah, no, oh definitely. ET: Definitely definitely. GS: Those boots, they kicked him so much he died. SH: Oh my gosh! GS: Yeah, it was terrible, so we have, and then the front would move back, we we under the Russians, we kept moving from one town to the next to keep away from, from being over our enemies. ET: Okay so. GS: That's why we ended up in Germany. SH: Yeah. GS: Because Ukrainian and Germany are quite a few countries, we were in Poland ya know we kept moving so that's what, that's how we ended up in Germany when the war finished and that's when the Americans took over and also when the we stayed in an underground shelter for two weeks. SH: Wow! GS: We couldn't get out because we were being bombed so much that, America bombed so much, it was the end of the war that we had to stay in the bunker for a solid two weeks, we didn't get to change our clothes, my toes were rotting in my shoes, so yea, you know it was a bad time but you know some how you survived, and when they stopped bombing we came out and we didn't know how the Americans were going to treat us. ET: Oh yea yeah yeah. GS: cause we didn't know but they treated us very well, ohhh they were so nice to us and they and like I said the organized the schools, like one room classroom there was like 35 people in one class room, different families and they would give us blankets and there was one family there was another family because they had to put us all together, and you know we had to live like that and little by little different countries would different people, I font know Belgium would take people Britain took people, displaced people and you know like now we have refugees and so that was yeah. SH: I'm like wow. ET: That was amazing, that was really amazing, yeah. SH: I font know, that really moved me. ET: How many friends your family have? GS: Friends? ET: Oh I'm sorry, sibling? GS: My father had my aunt, my uncle, three-- there was four of them, four total, he had a brother and two sisters. SH: Did any of them come over here? GS: Yeah, one of my aunts came. SH: Oh that's great. GS: Yes and she was here living with us but she passed away, once he found out that his siblings, because he didn't know where they were but somehow she got to the United States, and my father found out that she lived here he made sure she came here, you know bring the family together as much as you can. SH: Did you feel like your parent's kind of you know like? Did you feel like-- GS: Yeah, my uncle. SH: Did you feel like your parents sheltered you from that or did you find out later in life? GS: Yeah, they sheltered that. SH: They didn't want you to know that. GS: I know this is terrible but when the Germans came and were going after the Jewish they were throwing babies up against the wall to kill them, because they didn't want to use the ammunition to kill them this is terrible, I get goose pimples so my mother wouldn't let us go see anything that happened like that cause she protected us from seeing things that people and stuff like that, she protected us as much as she could. ET: Did you lose any of your friends? GS: No we didn't we were so lucky, so lucky, my mother had a blessed mother picture and God saved us, that's what she felt you know, that God saved us cause a lot of times. SH: You're so cool. ET: Yes! GS: Because a lot of times the way things looked my father worked even during the war he had to have a job so he worked the railroad station and when the bombs started alarm came, we ran to hide he would hide in one place and we would hide in another and you know chances are we might have gotten killed, but so far, I font know we always got together somehow. SH: That's amazing. GS: that's where we're, very religious because we feel that God saved. SH: He brought you through so much. ET: Yes, yes. SH: So much. GS: The whole family, there's five of us and we didn't lose any, I didn't lose any. SH: That's amazing. ET: Amazing. GS: A lot of people lost their parents during war, ya know bombs and stuff, we were very lucky, we were very fortunate. ET: I know this time was very hard, but did you miss anything about these times about Ukrainian life? GS: To be honest with you I font, I font remember too much to, yea, I was seven years old when we left so I just started school I didn't, you know I can't say that I missed too much for Ukraine. ET: Yeah, I understand, you had a friend before we came here. GS: Oh in Germany I did. ET: Do you remember? GS: I don't remember anyone in Ukraine but I remember people in the camp because we lived there for a few years, about four years. SH: Were there Jewish people? GS: No there were, they were all displaced people. SH: Oh yes you said that. ET: Yes, displaced. SH: It wasn't like. GS: No. SH: Okay. GS: Just a place to stay and from there we came to the United States, no no it wasn't a camp, like you talk about Jewish camps, it wasn't a concentration camp. SH: It wasn't like like that okay. GS: No it wasn't. SH: I think you would've mentioned that by now. ET: So, on one side you have Germany and the other you have Russia. GS: Yeah they kept going back and forth, Ukraine. ET: Oh my gosh! GS: They, the front, they would move back and forth so that happened a few times to us we kept moving back and that's how come we ended up in Germany. SH: Now here in Binghamton, do you feel, not to totally change the subject but do you feel like there are any other, cause I'm not sure, I know the Ukrainian population is pretty prominent do you know of any other populations here. GS: oh yes there is a Polish Community, there's a Slavic community, there's you know, other nationalities that kind of hung together. SH: Do you think they came here around a similar time. GS: Well you know it depends, some of them came after the war sometimes some of them were born here. ET: Yes, because Poland like Ukrainian, also with Germany and Russian. GS: Yes, because the fronts, the immigration more or less. SH: I was just curious, I wasn't sure. GS: Yeah yeah. ET: So, you are saying ethnicity and religion are not important, they tried to save all the displaced people, this is amazing. GS: That's right, that's right, it didn't matter. We were already in camp we had services, they had one room set aside like a chapel, orthodox had their service, catholic had their service other religions whatever had their services this was like in the camp so we got along with everybody, you have to, you have to help each other, that's what it is, when you're in trouble you help each other, it didn't matter who you were as long as you could help. You know, so-- ET: What about your mother's side, we know your father's side, but what about your mother? She's Catholic. GS: Yes yes. ET: She came here-- GS: Well my mother and father, no, none of them were here, my grandmother, she died before we came here so, and my mother had, the uncle who I said was killed by Germans, he was my mother's sisters’ husband so it was that kind of family, but none of my mother's family was here at all, my father's family was here but none of my mothers, they died before they got here. ET: All of them or? GS: Yeah, it was just the father died long ago when she was just a little girl and the mother was older and the sister, the sister was left behind but she died shortly after when we came here, my mother didn't have any family here at all. S: That's hard. GS: Yeah. SH: Do you feel like she had a preference? I know my mom's family came from Ireland and before they were able to get into the country they stayed in Canada for a little bit and she was always really mad they didn't stay in Canada. Do you feel like your mother had a preference? GS: Eh not really. SH: no she was just happy you guys were all safe, alive and well. GS: Yes that's it, right. SH: I'm sure you don't get too picky after what happened to you guys. GS: That's right, that's right after you lose your home and your place. ET: I was wondering after all these hard years, did your father try to go back or ever want to go back because it's hard to adopt here after. GS: No no, this is how, we said, no he never tried to go back. ET: I can understand. GS: No he was happy to be here because it was a free country and you had the freedom which we didn't have for years, no he never expressed that he would like to go back or anything like that. ET: Yes, yes, are you watching the television and news about Ukraine right now? GS: Sometimes. ET: Do you follow the Ukraine? GS: Yes, yeah I do, we do, we do; we keep up. We have a collection for the soldiers you know in our church we have a bake sale and we donate the money we've collected and send it to Europe because we have to help them. You know Russia is not very nice to us, you know Putin is not very nice taking, they're stronger than we are so they're going to take advantage of us but you know, Putin is something else, that's all I have to say. ET: Do you think Ukraine and Russia is close to each other, I'm just wondering. GS: Well I think maybe now because Ukraine was under Russia for what, seventy years, under Russian rule but I think, I'm talking about over there not here. ET: Okay. GS: I imagined inter marriages, maybe there is some mixed up, I really couldn't tell you for sure, because they were close, they lived together so to speak, but we still wanted our independence you know. ET: Absolutely. ET: Do you have any other hobbies here? GS: I love to cook and bake, you know so, I do that for sure, I worked for 38 years at Wilson hospital and not a nurse, I was a secretary. SH: My mom did that when I was younger! GS: Oh really? SH: Yeah, she was a secretary, she loved it, at a hospital; you see a lot. GS: Yeah, um I did, so I worked for 38 years, I retired when I was 69. SH: That's a long time, a long while, very cool. Just out of curiosity, where did you work in the hospital, like a certain? GS: Surgical floor mostly, orthopedic surgery. ET: Just another thing, did you feel assimilated enough to celebrate holidays like Independence Day and Thanksgiving? GS: Yes yes I do. SH: You seem pretty pro America. GS: Yes absolutely, absolutely I'm both. SH: A lot of people are pretty down on the United States right now. GS: No no not me. I mean there’s politics and stuff but I mean that will blow over. ET: Yes. SH: I think it will blow over, I think things are going to get better, it's been weird for a few years. GS: Ehhh it comes and goes, you know. SH: Yeah, it does it does so I think it will, we'll see, we'll give it a few years, oh that was my question. ET: Yeah. SH: Oh okay so I've been to Israel a few times and then I'll come back to America and try Israel food and I'm like ugh this is horrible, do you feel that way? Is there any Ukrainian food around here? Um or do you have to make it. GS: I have to make it! ET: I'm sure it's much more delicious. SH: Any restaurants for it? GS: I hear there's Ukrainian Restaurants around Binghamton, on Court Street or something, but I've never been there. SH: You've never tried it out. GS: No no never tried it out. SH: What is Ukrainian cuisine? Because I've never. GS: Well you know-- SH: Because you like to bake and cook? GS: Okay, one thing is tortes, we call them tortes, they're eight layers of pastry that you bake and you have to put filling between each layer, there's a walnut torte, you know, different kinds of tortes we make, and that's baking most of the time and food wise pierogi and all kinds of soups, you know nothing specific. SH: Yeah, I know Israeli food is very similar to the countries around it, you know like Lebanese food, do you think it's probably similar to that. GS: I think a lot of those countries are Slavic polish, the foods are more or less the same because they're all so close together, they kind of borrow from each other, you know. ET: You know I am coming from Turkey there is a lot of the same food. SH: You guys have a lot in common. ET: Yes Ukraine and Turkey are so close, and they support each other. GS: That's right that's right, yeah right on the border. SH: Are your languages similar? GS: No no. ET: Not much. SH: I was going to say you could like try and talk-- ET: The same basics are for the Russian and Ukraine? GS: What? ET: For the languages? GS: The alphabet is the same but the, you know I speak Ukrainian but I don't understand Russian, some words I might understand but hard Russian, no they are not similar. ET: Actually we really want to say thank you. GS: Oh is that all? Oh wonderful. ET: We appreciate it. SH: You answered all our questions really well. GS: I hope you get something out of it. SH: I feel like I learned a lot. ET: It really affected me. SH: I know I teared up. ET: I almost cry. SH: That was awesome, Thank you very much. ET: We want to say thank you very much. GS: Oh you're welcome, no problem, I hope you do well in school, I know you do. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geraldine Czebiniak Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Czebiniak, Geraldine. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; World War, 1939-1945—Prisoner-of-war camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Czebiniak, Geraldine ; Hutcher, Sarah Joy ; Tatar, Erman Sahin Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Geraldine Czebiniak is a Ukrainian immigrant who left Ukraine at age seven during the Second World War. She went with her family to Germany to stay in a camp for displaced people. She migrated to the the United States when she was 13 years old. She is a member of Sacred Hearth Orthodox Church and resides in Binghamton with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Geraldine Czebiniak.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 50:09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30c618a53d0a06f84348e0577494274a.MP3 eb5ff021c35eb0ee83efbb42cb2b4002 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Biographical Text Irina Kirichuk was born in Kurganinsk, Russia and moved to Ukraine when she was 3. She is of Russian, Ukrainian, and Armenian ancestry.&nbsp; She is hearing impaired. She came to the United States in 1993, works as a hairstylist, and lives with her family in Binghamton. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jonathan Gurewich and Andrea Esposito Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Irina Kirichuk Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:45 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-11 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kirichuk, Irina. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Armenian; Russian; Ethnic identity; Ethnic--food; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=IrinaKirichuk.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Russians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Binghamton (N.Y.); Deaf ; Hairstylists Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Irina Kirichuk Interviewed by: Andrea Esposito and Jonathan Gurewich Interpreter: Dee Davis Transcriber: Andrea Esposito and Jonathan Gurewich Date of interview: 11 April 2016 at 3:30:00 PM Interview Setting: Bartle Library, room LSG 552 at Binghamton University, Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Andrea Esposito: Okay, it's recording--Um, so if you wouldn't mind just stating your name and where you were born if you don't mind. Irina Kirichuk: Okay, sure, my name is Irina my last name is Kirichuk I was born in Russia the name of the town is Kurganinsk. It is a small town, and then when I was three years old we moved to Ukraine and I grew up there in a big city called Kiev, and four hours up from there was a small town called Berdychiv. It's a small town. AE: So you grew up in Berdychiv or Kiev? IK: Uh, actually I grew up in Berdychiv. It's like here, it's kind of like New York State. You know how you have upstate where the small towns are. AE: Mmm that kind of what it was like. It's almost the same idea. Jonathan Gurewich: And uh, as a kid did you spend a lot of time with your parents? Did you um-- IK: I spent a lot of time with my parents and my grandmother. And I have two neighbors who are Russian, and another one on my father's side of the family. My mother's side of the family there were some and my father’s side of the family had Russians and then also my father had Ukrainians who had escaped and gone to Russia. And so that is how I was born there in Russia, and then we moved to the Ukraine. AE: Um, so could you tell us about um why they like escaped? Um, to go to Russia? IK: My mother-- I don't remember exactly. My mother had told me the story when I asked and it was a little confusing, but my mother had a different last name, and I said it wasn't, it didn't seem apart of Russian, and my mother explained to me that the family was from Armenia and then the family all moved because of the war. And it just got very messed up so they escaped and moved to Russia, and then that's how she met my father. My father had been in the army. She met him and then she was pregnant with me. And I was born there in Russia and when I was three then we moved to Ukraine because my father had a lot of family there on his side. They begged him to move there. My mom also had a big family in Russia, so where should we go? They decided to move to Ukraine, but every year they would visit the family members who were in Russia. So we'd go back and forth, but I love the Ukraine side of the family more. I don't know why. Why they picked Kiev, but I did. AE: Um, so at your visits to Russia what type of experiences did you have there versus in Ukraine? IK: Oh-- hmm. Well, the two places were different. It was a beautiful city in Russia, and they spoke differently, but a little bit differently. There was a different, there were different words that they used. It was the same types of sounds, but their food was a little bit different also and I just felt as though. Ahh, people were cool (Everyone laughs). My family was cool; we both got along together in both countries really. So in both countries, so in Russia the world seemed different than Ukraine, and I picked Ukraine that I liked better. I don't know why Russia was nice, but it was more hmm, not at friendly, hmm didn't seem as friendly; their habits were more-- how should I say it-- For me, they seemed very strong but Ukraine seemed more friendly. You know like every time you saw someone they said good morning that was different than it was in Russia. So, stuff like that-- Russia wasn't bad, you know it was cool. It was a beautiful city. Everything was there but from my perspective; they were two different places, and I grew up until I was fourteen years old there, in Kiev. Or near Kiev and then I, we moved here, so, and every year I would fly there, to Russia and Ukraine, and just recently I went to Ukraine, but I couldn't fly to Russia because of the war and the problems that are between Ukraine and Russia now. So, I couldn't go visit my family even though they begged me and I told them I can't. So, my family in Ukraine had told me you really can't go there, and I decided myself that I would not go to Russia, so I was disappointed in that. It's not like I support one side over the other; I said I don't care about Putin leave him out of this I love the people and my family. That's all, so it was just different between the two places. AE: Um, so you said you couldn't go back to Russia, how long was that for, like um time period wise? IK: Now, this was just very recently, last December 2015 I flew to Ukraine to visit my family, but I couldn't go to see my family in Donetsk. I couldn't visit them because of the war, they were like right in the middle of it in Russia and I have a big family that I could have visited, but-- I, I, I can visit them because I have the birthright to get there, so there is no big deal for me to actually go there, but what if something were to happen while I was there and we discussed it with my family they were all concerned. They were all very worried. And my father said to me no, and so I respected what my father said to me so I didn't go-- And my Russian family members were upset and I told them, “Well once you get to some peace there then I promise that I will come visit”. So, hmmm. JG: So do you remember uh any activities that you would do uh that were maybe different, traditions that were different between your Russian side of the family and Ukrainian side of the family? IK: Oh yeah, they were very different traditions. Um, hmm, like for Easter the tradition was different we would always go to church and it would be overnight, and then they would make the holy water, and bless us, everyone there and have eggs and cakes and pierogis, and that was a tradition in Ukraine and also we had apples for celebration that was the tradition there. And Christmas time was you know January 7th, was the tradition of Christmas in Ukraine. In Russia it was December 25th for Christmas, but now before the tradition had been the same but it changed around. And, let's see the differences here Russia, now understand that Russia we never followed the tradition there because my grandmother's traditions were from Armenia and my mother, my grandmother and mother came from Armenia so there was that and I was a little bit confused because it is Armenian is it Russian is it Ukraine? I couldn't figure out which one it was. On my father's side of the family they said you had to pick one and I said, but I love them all. I love all the traditions. It doesn't matter to me I love them all (Everyone laughs). I love all the traditions it doesn't matter to me I love them all, so I was just fascinated with everyone's tradition. So like the Armenian tradition was you must when we move to Russia you had to have nice clothes you had to have to show everything polite have food traditions that were handed down that had to be proper and all the family had to get together and stuff like that so. JG: So, when did you uh decide to come to America? IK: Well, I never thought about that it, was my mother who did she had made all the plans and my mother flew to Russia and filled out some forms there, and then my mother said to me we're going to, well we're planning to go the US and I was very excited I thought for a visit oh yay! We're going to the US I was so excited. Oh, I loved traveling and then my mom planned this, and something happened and we couldn't make it, and then my mom met. Bush's Father who was the president before. Dee: Oh, you mean the president before Bush? -- Yeah, yeah he was, he was George too. IK: My mother met George Bush and begged him to let us in and I remember I was very small and I met him, I didn't know who he was I didn't know he was famous and my mother said this man is from the United States and I said, “well, oh it's nice to meet you” (everyone laughs). I couldn't hear anything so I just shook his hand and my mother explained and begged him and said please let us come to the US, and he signed the papers; we needed to do that in 1993. So that's when we moved here, and then a few years-- I thought we would be here for a few years and then go back and my mother said no we're going to live here and I said what? I was so upset at that time I was very upset, but and plus I asked my mother why is it that we moved I don't understand why we moved; don't you like Russia, and she said no what she wanted me to see me have a good life for myself here because of being deaf there; were more opportunities here in the US. There are interpreters. In Russia and Ukraine, it is very different it is very different, it is very difficult there for deaf people it's more oppression by hearing people of deaf people there which means they tell you, you can't do this you can't do that and you don't have any freedom like you do here. Here, we have so many more opportunities to do whatever; it is you want and in Russia they tell you, you can't. Like I wanted to be a doctor and they said you can't be a doctor; you're deaf. Here I could've if I wanted to and so my experience. Here, there is a very good life here I could have a good job here, get good money here and earn a good living, but it's a little boring for me right here it's like well-- Let me explain a little bit um, good job, and family, and it's always like very family oriented. With uh in Russia you have good friends and family and you enjoy yourself so much, and once you're done with work you meet up with family and friends and do things and money is not so great. Would have been better there if we had the money with the family. For my perspective, I like Europe because it is more active, there are more things to do. You can keep busy, you can enjoy yourself. Here it's a little bit different. I think I've lived here for twenty- let me see here--yea, twenty-four years I've lived here. When I recently flew to Ukraine I was so excited to go there I know times have changed but I was still just thrilled to being, doing things and being there that time just flew for me. I was there just a week and I said there's no way! You know, I wanted to be there three weeks. I wanted more, it just seemed like not enough time, and here I feel like ehhhh, and (everyone slightly laughs). You know I try to be positive about things and keep busy and have my kids, do things with my kids. So it's a different feeling. AE: Um, you said that your first few years here you didn't want to be here like is there any particular reason why you didn't like America at first? Or-- IK: Well the first time when I moved here I didn't know how to speak English and I didn't know any American sign language so I couldn't communicate, and with my friends I felt like what do I do and my father told me just be patient give it a couple of years, two or three years and then we'll move back to Ukraine and my father said I promise and I said fine. So I was patient, I went to school it was a mainstream school it was not a deaf residential school it was a mainstream school so I went to the school and it was hard to try to lip read and try to learn English and every day I cried and I'd ask my teacher I don't understand can you repeat. And just went along for three years and after that my dad said are you ready to go back to Russia and I said yes dad come on let's go I was so excited I was jumping for joy, but for some reason something happened with my family to try to fly there and my sister was here as well and my mom stayed so it was just my father and I. So my mom wanted to stay in the US with my sister and I didn't want to I wanted to go back, and then I realized and my father said to me, we'll go visit if you decide that you want to stay, you want to move back we'll do that so we visited and realized wow I could see that--I decided I didn't want to stay I had to come back to the US because I, I, I don't know why it just hit me all of a sudden cause deaf people had warned me from Ukraine that you should stay in the US. Because they could see that I was happy. And they were grumpy all the time, and it's not that they were not happy before they were very frustrated with things they were very stressed; they didn't have enough money to pay the bills there was so much going on. There were problems with doctors and I realized that oh my goodness I asked my family and they'd say are you okay? And they said please you should go back. Visiting is fine, but living here is not good for you and I realized after came back I realized that I just have to stay positive and stay here. That was the same with my husband. I married my husband, he's from Ukraine, and he moved here and it was the same sort of thing he was very upset, he was not happy being here he didn't want to stay here he wanted to go back, and he begged me, and begged me and I promised him just be patient we'll see what will happen after one or two years. And I said now this is for me, it's for me, if you love me you should be patient to stay here for a while my husband said okay and he stayed and I felt bad, but I decided if you want to move back to Russia we will or the Ukraine. My husband decided no thanks, I can't, it would be better to stay here so we've been happy here ever since. It's just given me very much opportunity better life here than I could have there. Better job and for me being deaf in the community it was a good opportunity, I had interpreters I had everything I needed here and hmm-- it's just more free, like whatever I want I can do. There they were constantly telling me I can't do things. I tried to learn and they said no, you can't you can't do that you. They would limit me and now it is more free, but it is not as free as it is here, it's not. JG: So when your parents first came to the United States did they decide to come to Binghamton or did you move to Binghamton later? IK: No, Um, it's funny, the government had given us tickets for the family to move and because it was through the government's assistance they were giving this away to people who they would say here is where you have to go, and my mother did not know what it was and I was hoping to stay in New York City, that's what I was hoping because I had flew in there and I was just fascinated with that place I loved it so then we stayed at the airport to wait, and they had to check our names and make sure everything was in order, and there was a huge line of people and they'd said where are you going to be going and they told us we were going to Binghamton. So we got on the airplane, little teeny airplane and came here it was so small I had never seen anything so small, but um so we moved here. And we had an apartment, and they, we had everything, it was new because the government helped subsidize it for us and they had apartment, food, and clothes, everything was there the bed, it was furnished! So we were, I was really lucky. And my friend who just recently moved did not get an apartment had to do all of this for themselves, they had to look for themselves, they had to buy the food for themselves, like when I moved here in 1993 they provided everything to me, but now my friend who just recently moved did not get that. And immigration has become much harder it was easier uh when I came, but um and the government told me where to come and I came here and I've never gone anyplace else, I've always been in Binghamton the whole time. My life until I got married, my children were born here in Binghamton, so we're all here. Because I realized I wanted to go to New York City, and I'm realizing now that it's more quiet here it's more comfortable here, I can afford things better here than in New York City. New York is very expensive because I've asked my friends what do you think do you like life there and they said yea but we have to work so much to afford everything so I'll go traveling and have my enjoyment that way. AE: Um when you uh moved here what did your uh parents do for a living, was it hard for them to find a job or did the government help? IK: No, uh actually my parents moved here and started going to school. Yea my parents went to school they went to BOCES and studied English first of all to learn English, and then the government helped with everything, and my parents and my family for money they started, they gave us food stamps. Uh, we had Medicare we had all the assistance until my father was ready then. My father wanted a job, but he didn't know how to communicate in English yet, so my father got pretty grumpy about that. I think he studied for two years and then he started working from BOCES; he got work as a mechanic he would fix lights he was very happy with that. He went along with that, but he felt it wasn't enough, he wasn't satisfied. And I was in my school, just being in high school main-stream here and then a few years later they brought an interpreter for me, my father was working very hard and then went back to school because he wanted to study to be a truck driver, a long-haul trucker, so he was successful at that and now it's been about fifteen years, oh maybe seventeen years now he's been that kind of work. He's very successful, he's very happy. My mother never did have a job she stayed home and took care of her children, me and my sister, and my father was the only one who ever worked. And that was all-- And also we didn't have any family here me my sister my father and my mother just the four of us that was it when we moved here we didn't have any other family here, we didn't have any friends we started to build our group of friends, but in the start, at the beginning it was it was very we were very lonely, we were very grouchy, we didn't understand things. But then slowly things built up, and now I have many new friends, and my circle has just grown. And no other of my family has moved here, it's just been the four of us, and my father wants to try to bring my grandmother here and she doesn't want to. She wants to stay there she said my blood is in Ukraine period. This is where I stand. AE: Um, when you were building up your circle of friends did you find them to be more Ukrainian immigrant or people from just around Binghamton in general? IK: Well, actually I had friends from school from all over the world, Vietnam, Africa I met a lot of people. My first experience when I moved here, I had never seen colored people, people of color ever. Never ever, people from Vietnam, people who were black, people from the world I had never seen. I thought, I said to my father where are these people from their skin is black my father said because really in Ukraine and in Russia it was only white people we're all very the same, very homogeneous. And then I moved here and my jaw would drop you know, it's cold here you have to wear long sleeves and you know I had never seen this sort of thing like fruit in the winter we never had that, they have fruit here in the winter like I said how do you get fruit in the winter, how do you get strawberries in the winter, it's winter, how do you do that!? And my father said, well he was also shocked by this. Oh this stuff is good even though it was winter and there were all these things that were new to us, the clothes that we were weird, we had never seen things like this, my eyes were always popping out my head, you know, he'd say it's not nice to stare at people with your mouth open so close your mouth. Yea, but now I know how it is. And I have friends from Ukraine, there are a lot of people from Ukraine here, a whole lot of people and uh Russia too. So I've gone through becoming friends with them chatting with two of the Russian church's they have, they have a Ukrainian church as well they have lots of different religions from Russia and they don't match me too much. And mine was its, O-R-C-H-E-N, Orchen was the name of the church, and that's the one that I had gone to and they have two languages, they would speak Russian, and they would speak English, it was better for me to help me learn. AE: So, you went to church when you were a kid and when you got older you stopped going or was it something else? IK: Hmm, Anytime, in Europe I would go to church any time whenever I wanted to, I could go or not go. Then when I moved here I went regularly it was every Sunday I went, and I was grouchy about that (everyone laughs). But I had to attend church until I said to my mom why is it I have to go to church, I don't believe in what they teach, and my mother said that's not nice to say, and I said I'm just being honest with you. I believe in Jesus Christ but the church is not helping me at all they tried to explain all these different rules and I feel like what are they. Because my grandmother, my grandmother had told me always you have to believe in Jesus Christ and one God, it's not the church, it's Jesus Christ and she would explain when they tell you these other things, blah blah blah -- All these different religions, different stories and my mother said it's called like a tree. It's like a tree, there's a catholic church, there's a Baptist church, there's all this and I'm not against them it's just my mother and my grandmother told me what's important is in your heart and talking to God and that's it. That's what I follow, so I was patient to go to church until I asked my parents and said to them. Because I can't hear or understand what they say anyway so I would stand around for nothing, it was very boring for me until they brought in an interpreter and then I was more inspired there because I could understand what they were talking about and the topics they were talking about it didn't matter if they were speaking Russian or whatever. I couldn't hear what they were saying, but I tried my best to lip read but it was very hard for me because the priest would you know moving around, couldn't read his lips as he was changing his position and it was until it was I was 1993, I graduated I stopped going to church after graduation. That's when I had stopped, then I went once and while for Easter services or Christmas or some sort of special event or if we needed to pray for my family or if there were problems with the war. We would go to church to pray for that, and I still have the faith. I'm never rude to people, I don't mean to insult anybody about church, just want to let you know. AE: No. JG: No, not at all, so overall how would how, how was your childhood influenced by your Ukrainian and Russian and Armenian heritage, and how did that uh come with you to America? IK: Hmm, good question. I grew up, I had a lot of experiences growing up and also I was confused and language was confusing, but I'm really very thankful to my mother and my grandmother for teaching me three languages-- I just grew up the same in all three places in Ukraine, Russia you know. I don't remember all of it. You know I was always playing outside a lot and did that sort of thing and learning how to communicate, but my family, my whole family knew that I was deaf, and so they would teach me a lot, every day they would teach me the three different languages and now I feel like I can speak all these languages, and my two kids as well are learning I'm teaching them as well too. Like how to speak those languages. DD: You mean-- let the interpreter make this clear, do you mean Ukraine--Ukraine and Russian? IK: Yes. JG: And have you ever visited, uh, Armenia, or have you ever engaged in your Armenian side of the family? IK: No I never have. I never visited there, but, it, I've never gone to visit. I've always visited Russia and Ukraine. It's been-- hmm-- I moved here and we would go back every year, and then I didn't visit for ten years and finally I just recently went in December. I flew there and I was very thrilled because I was so far behind seeing people and Ukraine has changed a lot because I haven't seen it in ten years! There were many changes there-- Yeah it's different now. It wasn't like it was when I was there, it's not like my Ukraine, I liked how it was before. Now with the changes-- Hmm-- It just feels like-- It's confusing, it's startling, because it's changed. Now they have mixtures of uhh people of color, people intermarry with people of color, so that's a big change. It's more expensive to live there now-- and people seem all grouchy all the time, it's like-- and I realize that, oh, I do not want to go back, I'll go to visit, and that's all, and that's just my opinion. Yeah, I don't want to go back. But, I do have a house there and I miss my family there, but just to visit, and see everybody and do that, and then come back here. When I came back home I missed it here so much it's like the opposite of how it used to be, I don't know. AE: Umm did you take your family with you, when you visited Ukraine recently, or? IK: No, I went by myself. I went by myself. Next year we're definitely going with the family. My kids have never been to Ukraine, my daughter's never been to Ukraine because it was ten years ago. My son was two years old, eh, or, no he was nine months old when we went, or, we went when he was nine months and eighteen months and he doesn't remember anything of that, so we've decided that next year, we are, I am going to go with my husband and my two kids and we've decided we are going to fly there to get this experience for them, to get this exposure for them. And also-- I'm hoping that Ukraine and Russia will have ended the war by then and they'll be at peace, so that we can go to Ukraine and then go visit Russia to Donetsk back home. I hope you know I'm hoping, I've I've promised my family we're going to go there. And, and also to go to my family in Armenia, my mother has a huge family there in Armenia, and-- and, also, some have gone-- to, to Israel and I've never visited there either-- so they keep saying, "when are you coming? When are you coming" I say I will-- but-- yeah-- my only tie is really to Ukraine, I feel pulled there, that's my favorite place. I don't know. Hmm. AE: You can go. JG: Have you been to other parts of Ukraine? Uhh, in other regions, maybe in the east, or the west? IK: Uhhh-- I have gone a lot to the east, in Ukraine, umm, hmm, the name of the town is-- Zhytomyr. It's a very small town, and I would go to Kiev, which is the big city, and also-- Lviv is a big city there as well, that is very strongly, Ukrainian, people's traditional dress, and it's more like the countryside-- it's more like the countryside-- so I've gone travelling there, and on my father's side there are a lot of people who live there-- in Donetsk, and also part of Ukraine also, so I've travelled to visit my family there, and also-- it-- let me see what's it called-- oh, Crimea-- also in the Crimea. Do you know about Crimea? JG: Yes. IK: Yes, that's, I went there, and that is part of Ukraine but it's already been stolen by the Russians. But yeah, and I would always travel in different cities, in different cities around big cities a lot, I would go to my father would always take me travelling with him, a lot. JG: And, when you would travel all over Ukraine did you notice a very big difference in the culture of these different places? Or was it mostly the same? IK: It was a little different-- like, the buildings would be different, the architecture, but it was the same food, it was the same clothing, but the buildings were different the churches were different they had different shapes in the different places. And also museums were a little bit different in the different places. And you know, cars would be different (laughs) sometimes they'd have the older cars that I'd never seen (laughs) before-- And the houses were beautiful, they were like, they looked like museums themselves. They were just-- I don't know what to say just amazing houses, and some I've I've never seen I said, "dad is that a museum?" he said, "No people live there." I said, "What, really? The house would look like a museum." He said "no really it's a house, really." But yeah, they're beautiful. And also-- they had an old house like from-- what would you call it-- uhh what's it called-- outside where they cut the plants, a house, where they it was like old fashioned, it was very fascinating that people still lived there, and I asked my father about this "Do you mind asking them?" because people don't understand me when I speak sometimes so I asked my father to ask,. He said "hey, my daughter wants to know how you live, how you protect yourself from the, oh, from the water coming through the roof that was made from plants?" And they would cut down trees and use this for their roofs and it was amazing to me, it was very old but still was working so it was very cool-- yeah. AE: Umm, did you travel other places besides Ukraine and Russia? IK: (long pause) Uhh-- yes I have gone to Poland, ummm where else-- Germany-- hmm where else-- Germany-- and well here I've gone to like the Bahamas the Dominican Republic, things like that, but in Europe, growing up when I moved here at 14, I moved here, so, what I'd done is more travel around the U.S. and in the U.S. I've gone to Puerto Rico, I've gone to the Dominican Republic; I've gone to the Bahamas, Mexico, things like that, on vacation. Always like during the summer. But, I still travel, I love traveling, I love learning about different places, I love all the differences of how they are and the different countries. Now last year were supposed to we were planning to go to-- Italy, we were planning to go to Italy but it never happened. IK: because everything got messed up, we had a lot of conflicts. So again we're hoping, we're hoping that we'll go sometime maybe during the winter we'll see. But, I, I really want to go to Spain. Yes, I, I have promised that I'm-- and so we'll see, we'll see when that will happen. Because my kids have school, and their sports and all that I can't ignore my kids I want to leave once they finish school we can go as a whole family. So-- AE: Umm, so, h- for your kids-- umm-- how have you been exposing them to-- the culture that you may have grown up with, or do you go, like, go more towards the American culture, or a hybrid of both? IK: I use both, we have a mixture of both that we teach them. Sometimes my kids will be like-- they'll find out something they'll see a picture they'll say that's really cool I've never seen a house like that and then I'll explain to them that it's like well that was like from my grandmother and grandfather's time you never met them they had died and they'll say if they had different clothes back then and I'll explain that, and the food, I explain about the food sometimes my husband and I still speak Ukraine at home. We and my kids will listen say what is that so we teach them that too, and always when we go out we speak English, but at home we speak Ukraine my husband and I talk abo- talk all the time in that and my kids don't if we don't want them to know some of the words sometimes-- We'll speak and they don't get it-- So I'll hide what I'm saying with my husband sometimes by them not understanding and also I'll speak to them and they'll understand but I want them to be able to speak back to me in it and they're not so good in that. They just know a little bit, of, of speaking back to me. If it's something difficult they can't do it, but uh I've been thinking of setting up, maybe, because I have umm my mother-in-law and my uncle, they're willing to have my children stay with them for three months during the summer and learn how to speak the language there so I've been thinking about that and uhh we have the food we have the culture sometimes though they'll ask me, "how did you meet dad? How did you meet?" And I said well he's from Ukraine and they love listening to that story they love hearing about other countries and also my father also explains to them as well, and he'll tell them about his experience and his history in Ukraine, and all that, because he had more experience than I did, so he can explain everything and my kids are just fascinated they'll ask him questions forever they're fascinated with this and then they say now how the toys are different than they are here they don't have these kind of dolls, like, different kinds of toys, and they'll ask my dad about that. And cars that are different, and I have dolls from I have twelve dolls and my kids would say wow why do you have them I've never seen these kinds of dolls and I would explain well this is is a tradition from where I grew up and it was cool. So now, I allow them to play with them. They've noticed the cars are different and-- you know, like, valuable silverware and cups and from Ukraine I show them and they say "oh so this is from Ukraine it's very decorative" it's like clothes also that have a lot of stitching on them from Ukraine, a lot of embroidery, and they say now why's that? And I say it's a tradition that they have in Ukraine for that. And sometimes they'll find something in school and say "hey mom look what I have there's a book from Ukraine it's talking about a story from Ukraine and they will read that a little more. And I've explained everything to them they ask me if they want to know I explain to them because they love it and sometimes I'll say to my father "can you explain to them in more detail about what they're asking (Andrea laughs) and they're just, huh, wrapped attention to him, and it's, I'm shocked how many questions they have about it and he always explains everything they ask, he's always done that he always explains and sometimes I try to bring them to church to see how it is-- how they have Ukrainian eggs, things like this Ukrainian art, at the church, things that are different and they'll say this is really cool oh these are all Ukrainian? I say yes they are they say why this is why they have the building this way because? And they have very popular wooden eggs and wooden spoons and things like this that they have in Ukraine. AE: Umm did family from Ukraine ever visit you at Binghamton? IK: No, hmm. We've tried, we tried to get a visa for them but it's not easy to do. So, we've tried, huh, we tried to bring them here we tried to bring family to visit and one problem, this biggest problem is the visa. I don't know why that is, you have to put down you have a job you have to fill out all this stuff and they still denied them a visa so I don't know why I don't know why there are many times; I think maybe about thirty times we've filled out a visa application so it's been every year and it's never been accepted, never been approved. And, so we're always the one's to go there and visit, and I don't mind, I don't mind, I'm not complaining about it, that's how it is. Also, they can't really afford to come here. Like for example, here if you have $100, there it's like 2,500, so, it's-- they work and they earn like $20 a month. So, there's no way they can afford coming here. Hmm. And it's uhh the different economy, we have very different economies-- many Europeans or Russian or Ukrainians want to come here and get jobs here to earn the money, they don't want to live here they want to get the jobs here, and-- (Dee clears throat) the problem is having no one can speak English. So-- and also, I'd ask my family how can you eat how can you afford to eat they said Well first we have to buy food we don't have anything left for clothes, or for their electronics things like that, but thank God that I'm here and this is good here and I always support them I will give my family things they need I will give them what I can what they need. AE: Umm what do you and your husband do for like employment here? IK: My husband-- well was laid off two years ago. He used to work for Pepsi he was the manager at Pepsi. And he was laid off. So I now am a Hairstylist and Cosmetologist, and I love it I love my work. JG: Have you always wanted to be a hairstylist? IK: Uhh umm when I was little, I'd would always go to the salon and watch and learn how they did things with nails and dream that when I grew up I could do this, but what I really wanted to do was become a doctor. That was my dream to become a doctor. And then, I was told no; you can't you can't you can't you can't. It's a long story but I decided to change and try for my second path, which was hair styling and I love it was really my dream, has always been to be a doctor growing up. I told my parents I want to be a doctor I want to be a doctor; I promise I'm going to be a doctor but then life just messed me up. Hmm. But, I love doing hair, I get to meet a lot of people, all the people who I work with know I'm deaf, they know I can speak somewhat, and, if they speak quickly I don't understand I have to say "can you slow down?" and then I understand them but uhh me and my boss, we get along very smoothly. Everything works out and the customers who come in works very smoothly we've never had a problem (knocks on table) and I have to knock wood after I say that. Of course! But I'm very happy with that. Now before, I had worked as a teaching assistant and this was for kids this was for three years and I had to quit that, and then, I went back to school, to study Cosmetology, and I've become certified and licensed and so now I have my job and I'm very happy with that. And before I-- just stayed at home and watched my children and my husband had worked for Pepsi for many years and once he was laid off he tried to find a job and he was unable to. So we're waiting to see if he finds a different job. AE: So how long have you been working as a hairstylist and Cosmetologist? IK: Ahh let's see it hasn't been long time, it was just recently let me see-- let me see-- hmm-- four months, four or five months four or five months-- hmm-- since licensed, since being licensed. AE: So, umm, you said it was a, uh, cool story about you and your husband met? So, like, you care to share? IK: Hmm, ok! I was here, and my best friend was getting married, and she sent me an invitation said you have to promise to come back to Ukraine for my-- to be the maid of honor for my wedding. And so I flew to Ukraine, and I stayed there for one month and a half. I stayed with my grandmother that time, and my grandmother was ill, also she had a stroke so I was taking care for her. I was going between her and my friend's house, and then my friend had her wedding, and I asked her who that guy is over there? And my best friend said "Oh my, he's a handsome guy!" I said yeah, but who uhh, do I know him?" "No you've never met him." "I said fine, but, that, was my husband." And my best friend said that they said to her, who is that girl over there? She said, she's beautiful. I said Well yeah, (all laugh) so that's kind of how it went. And I had a boyfriend already at that time, so, it just happened my best friend's wedding and I met him. We looked at each other it was very nice; we chatted and he spoke very fast and I said now uhh speak a little more slowly so that I can understand you. So that's where I met him at the wedding and then we just fell in love right away, it was very quick, and then-- he didn't know that I was from the U.S., because I didn't tell him, and he knew that I visited my grandmother all the time, he knew where I lived there with my grandmother every day he would come to visit and help and do that. And then, at the very end, we'd been dating maybe I'd say, oh, two months, no no no, two weeks, two or three weeks; we were dating, and I said to him, "you know I do have a boyfriend." He said I don't care; I do not care where's your boyfriend he's not here right? I said "Right! I just want to tell you the truth you don't care? Ok fine." So we dated, and-- he showed me around new buildings and things that I'd never been. So, I got to learn about these new places; I'd never visited before and finally I said goodbye I won't see you and he said what are you talking about you're teasing right? And I said no, I'm not! I won't see you again! This is it. And he thought I was joking. And I said no, I'm not joking I'm telling you the truth. And he said yeah right sure; I'll see you tomorrow and I said no, I'm going to be, going I'm flying away tomorrow and he said no no, I don't believe you, you're teasing so, he gave me a kiss I flew away. And, he stopped by my grandmother's house and says "where's Irina Where's Irina where is she?" she says well she doesn't live here she was just visiting she lives in the U.S. and my husband was shocked, but I had I had already told him he didn't believe me (Dee laughs) he thought I was teasing. So, ok fine. So, he decided to ask my best friend whose wedding I went to he said do you have Irina's address. Do you know how I can contact her? She said Well fine and she gave him my address, so he kept in contact with me he would write to me back and forth and while I was here-- the boyfriend I had here-- I mean-- it-- I really had forgotten about the man who's become my husband, I'd really kind of forgotten about him. I got his letter and I thought hmm-- who's that? Huh-- that name I don't quite remember. So, I, so I wrote to him I said "I'm sorry I don't know who you are" and he got very mad. So, then he sent me a picture and then I said, "huh it looks so unfamiliar, oh shit! Yeah I know who that is, yeah" So we kept in touch, we kept in touch, and, he told me he wanted to date me he wanted to keep in touch and it happened that my grandmother became sick again; we were very worried and my father was supposed to fly there but he couldn't make it. He had to work, he wasn't allowed to take time off, so he asked me if I wouldn't mind going. So, I said sure and I went and I stayed for two months with my grandmother and took care of her after her stroke she was in the hospital and I had to pay for her bills and do all the stuff involved with that I took care of her and then the man who became my husband, he uh, he came to visit again, kept in touch, and he asked me to get engaged with him after three months of dating. I turned him down, second time he asked me I turned him down. And my grandmother said to me "I like him!" and I said "I know, I know" and my grandmother said "I want to see you married, I'm still alive I want to see you married before I die" I said "I know grandma I know I know but don't rush me I need to have the right guy, I need to find the right man who I love!" and she said "he seems like a nice man" and my grandmother said to me "remember, don't think about money" I said "no I'm not looking for money I'm looking for love. My grandmother said to me, when she, you met him, I met my husband and we were married in two weeks. I said Grandma that was a long time ago; it's different now she said you have to follow your stomach do you have butterflies there? You have to follow your heart do you feel love there, then do it! And I thought hmmm, but, I decided go ahead and get engaged. And so I got engaged with my husband and married him very quickly. And then, he stayed in Ukraine, it's funny, umm it was like, we were married, we didn't, I didn't have the dress or anything it was just the two of us went signed the papers and that was it. And, there were fifty people who were there, the same age as me, had a party, we didn't have any family at all. And my parents had no idea that I was married, my father knew I was engaged but he didn't know we'd actually gone in and signed the papers and made it legal, so, when I flew back, he said well why didn't you-- why did you go back to the U.S., he wanted me to stay in Ukraine, I said hang on a second I have to go there I have to talk to my father, so I flew back and I told my boyfriend uhh-- we're broken up that's it he was mad and I said well ohh uhh ohh well I love this other man. So, that's how I told my father that I'm married my father said "you're supposed to wait, you're supposed to have the dress, you're supposed to have everything." I said, "ehhh, doesn't matter" he said OK fine. Next year, we'll have the family, we'll have the wedding; we'll have a huge affair when you get married. And I told my husband well, you're going to have to come here to the U.S. and my husband said no he wanted me to stay in Ukraine! And I said but, but I'm going to college I'm going to be stuck he said I don't care you can start here in Ukraine and so I was very angry at that-- and then I told him Well fine, we should get divorced he said "what! We just got married!" You want to get divorced? I said because, I love you but I don't want to stay here. So, I said if you love me, then you'll come with me. He said ok, so he came with me here, and he was grumpy for a while, but as it went on like after a couple of years, I said I will always be there with you we were always helping each other I would help him translate things he would go to school and he'd say he wanted a job I said you have to be patient you have to focus on school first he didn't want to do that and finally he's the smart guy but after two or three months he would pick up English just like that and he got a job and he just took off and-- like my father (snaps fingers) it was like my father just right away didn't care about the schooling. Who cares, just get the job and he picked up English very well and now he does very well he doesn't write so well in English but he speaks very well; he knows how to speak. So, it's very amazing. So we've been married sixteen years now hmm. Yeah. And-- also I, I was thinking about my grandmother had said see? You're still married, and she was there when we were married and then it was a few years after that my grandmother said I want to see grandchildren! I said we're trying! We're trying! And then I was pregnant and my grandmother died, so, I always promised my grandmother-- grandchildren but I was very very close with my grandmother and grandfather there, very close to them, but, my mom's side of the family my grandmother was, I would see her, she was very sickly I never met my grandfather on my mother's side. My father's side I saw more often my grandmother and my grandfather and all the family there. Anything else? JG: I think we're uhh I think we're uhh-- good? AE: Uhh yeah, I think we're good. Thank you so much. JG: Thank you so much. IK: Mhmm you're welcome. JG: It was very nice to hear your story. AE: It was very nice thank you. IK: Well thank you! (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Irina Kirichuk Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kirichuk, Irina ; Gurewich, Jonathan ; Esposito, Andrea Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Irina Kirichuk was born in Kurganinsk, Russia and moved to Ukraine when she was three. She is of Russian, Ukrainian, and Armenian ancestry. She is hearing impaired. She came to the United States in 1993, works as a hairstylist, and lives with her family in Binghamton. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-11 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Irina Kirichuk.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-21 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:45 Subject The topic of the resource Kirichuk, Irina. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Armenian; Russian; Ethnic identity; Ethnic--food; Church; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9063d5632ca0f5cc2ea6282025b4d6df.m4a 010afa648dbfa2043e31c1e40669d1cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ivan Synevsky Biographical Text Father Ivan Synevsky was born in Western Ukraine region in 1982. He lived in Ukraine until 2001, when he moved to Canada. He lived in Canada for six years, then got married in the United States in 2007. He attended Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010, then was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. He had a parish in New Jersey for two years and in 2012, he was transferred to the local parish. He resides in Johnson City with his wife and three children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:24 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Synevsky, Ivan. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian—Canadian; Ukraine—History; Soviet Union--History; Eastern Orthodox Church; Priest; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia-- History; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=IvanSynevsky.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Priests; Soviet Union; Canada; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Father Ivan Synevsky, Priest Interviewed by: Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Transcriber: Ege Konuk and Tyler Sherven Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Tyler Sherven: Hello, today we are interviewing Father Ivan on April 6, 2016, 10am at Binghamton's St John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church. How are you doing Father? Father Ivan Synevsky: I'm doing good, thank you. TS: We're Binghamton students Tyler and this Ege, it’s a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you in your lovely place of worship. For your discretion, you are not obligated to answer any of these questions. If there are any topics you find uncomfortable, please inform us to move on. Ege, would you like to begin with your question Ege Konuk: Hello again, Father Ivan. Like my friend said before, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you. First of all, Father Ivan, could you introduce yourself to our audience. Could you perhaps offer us some information, such as where were you born, when were you born, career, and size of family? IS: Sure, I was born in Ukraine, 1982. Western Ukraine Region. I lived in the Ukraine until 2001, when I moved to Canada. I lived in Canada for 6 years, then I got married in the United States, 2007. At that time, I was also considering going to seminary school. Even though there was one already in Canada that I already applied to, I decided to go to one in the United States. So I went to Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010. Then I was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. I had a parish in New Jersey for 2 years and in 2012 I was transferred to this parish. I, as I said, I am married and have 3 kids now. I also work for the main office of our church in the United States as editor of the magazine. It is called Ukrainian Orthodox Word and I also do other publications, some of the website publishing as well. I published the main calendar of the church; I also am taking care of this parish. TS: You said you lived in Ukraine until 2001. Could you possibly detail the community you grew up in, while you were in Ukraine? IS: Sure, when I was born, at that time, it was still the Soviet Union. In 1989, the Soviet Union started to break up. In 1990, Ukraine proclaimed its independence. The schools have started to change as well. During the Soviet Union, we learned Russian language, Russian literature. After Ukraine became independent, we started to use more Ukrainian language, less Russian. I believe after 2 years, we stopped even learning Russian at all. We started to use all the Ukrainian books, since everything was in Russian. In the area I grew up, my father was a priest, he had a parish in the village, and so we grew up in the village. After my parents passed away when I was 9 years old, we moved to the city where my aunt took us. I had 5 more siblings, there was 6 of us, so we all moved to her apartment. But slowly, we went to school and kind of broke up that number, because when she took us she had her own 4 children, 6 of us. My sister soon after went to look after grandmother and my sister went to the other grandmother, then we kind of shifted in different ways, making work easier on my aunt. But we also come from a large family, where my mother's side, there were 12 kids, 3 died when they were young, so there were 9 left. They were all helping us when we were without parents, which was a great help. Even in that case, when we moved to Canada, we moved as adopted children to Canada-- our relatives took us to Canada, 4 of us, 4 boys and 2 sisters were still in Ukraine, but four boys went to Canada. EK: Well, I wonder how you and your family decided to immigrate to America. I mean that, what motivated this decision? IS: Well, I was in Canada, and my second parents had took us to Canada. He was also a priest, so he moved to the United States, as a priest. And I was visiting them during the Ukrainian festival and I met a girl during the Ukrainian Festival, and I started to air travel from Canada to Oregon State. But where my girl was at the time was Seattle, Washington, because I was traveling to both places. Then not too long, I met my future wife in October and we married in July. Then, like I said, I already applied to theological school in Canada, but since I married in the United States, we decided to stay in the United States, so we applied to Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological School, and we moved there. We were there for 2 and a half years, because I expedited using summers. I guess my reason to move to the United States was, simply, more opportunities here and also there were some immigration papers that were involved at that time, so we decided to move to Canada and not stay in the United States. TS: Has your perspective on America evolved since arriving? Did you happen to have a certain idea of what America was, while you were in Canada or Ukraine? IS: Well I certainly had a different imagination when I was in Ukraine, because I guess all we learned was from movies, and you cannot really learn America by movies. When I moved to Canada, Canada is much like America, it was a big difference when I moved from Ukraine to Canada. Many things were new. But when I moved from Canada to the United States, I guess the only difference that I noticed was that America is much larger, and there are many areas that are occupied more. Whereas in Canada, there are some empty spaces in between the bigger cities, where you can travel 6-7 hours and see nothing on the side. Whereas here, 1 or 2 hours there is something. Even though there is a highway, you can certainly see outlets that you can go and stop somewhere. I haven't been in South America, I don't know what it's like there, but certainly in the North part of the United States, I have some experience. EK: At this point, I want to ask you another question. Does your immediate family hold different views on this country? TS: Different views, as in let's say, when your family was in Ukraine, did they hold different views on perhaps what they saw through movies and other sorts of media and then did that shift? IS: Oh, my family in Ukraine? TS: Your family in Ukraine and Canada, perhaps. IS: I would say the family in Ukraine may still have different views because of our constant communications, I believe they have a better idea how it is in Ukraine. And my siblings in Canada, they've been in the United States too, so I don't think there is much difference. I think the only difference, is that it is a much larger community here. And also in Canada, French is the second language and here Spanish is almost the second language. I guess that is the only difference you have. But everything else looks very similar or the same in the United States and Canada because they share products along the border. TS: I mean they have such a close economic relationship and everything. It's really had to shift between there-- Well, you must have a really strong religious identity, being an Orthodox priest, of course. What happened to inspire you to take on this path and, more broadly, what inspires people to enter your religious community? IS: Well, as I have said before, I am from the priest family. And I grew up in the church, so all the feast days, all the services, we were in the church. Not only my father, but also my six uncles from my mother's side were priests. One was cantor, the whole family was really in the church, so anytime we had celebrations friends, priests that would come. From my very childhood, my dream was to become a priest. Even though that dream dissipated, later on, when I was a teenager because in Ukraine there were times, after Ukraine became independent, there were times of disturbance in the Orthodox ways, where national churches would start to rise up without canonical. There the Byzantine Catholic Church that started to invade the churches. I witnessed many invasions of the church, where people would come to the church and expel the Orthodox people and change all the locks and stuff. So that was happening in 1990-1996, during that time. TS: Could you perhaps elaborate on the transition of the Orthodox Church between the time in the 80s, with the Soviet Union and the 90s? IS: I believe the church decided to separate from Russia completely. When the country, itself, proclaimed its independence, the church wanted to have independence as well, because they were under the patriarch of Russia. They wanted to have their own patriarch so they could have no relationship with Russia because of that long bond that they had and also some stories that the Russian Patriarch was under control of the KGB, and so they wanted to separate for many reasons. There were many attempts, some were at the very beginning, and they were very healthy if everybody said we want the Ukrainian church, let's separate. Even though there were, at times, those of that kind, but yet there was some hesitation from some bishops. Many of them said no at the very end before the meeting, so that didn't happen all together. They had to break up into smaller groups. So that didn't really work well because we orthodox started to be divided. Some wanted to be canonically correct so they would stay with Moscow. Some wanted to be separated from Moscow completely, so they created their own group and started to serve their own services. Outside, look, you cannot see any difference. All Churches are the same. All icons and everything are the same, as I've said before, you cannot tell the difference what group you're on. There's not really a separation of something or making new religions. There is just a separation of governance, governments that wanted to create their own, so they would be completely separate from Russia. So the decision was to separate from the Soviet Union completely and be its own, self-governed in all regions. TS: So there was major push to establish and strengthen the Ukrainian identity after the fall of the Soviet Union? IS: It's really hard, because look, during the Soviet Union, there were times many people would be forcefully moved from one area to another area. Just simply, even my grandparents, they were moved from their village. Simply they load them, bring whatever they can take, and load them on a truck, move them miles, miles away to the city so they could they work and build the cities. They wanted to move the businesses and stuff because everything was owned by the government, so they wanted everyone to work for the government. All the mineries, all the shoe factories, and every business they owned, they wanted people in. So it was a forceful thing to move people around and also they were not just moving in the small country or region, they were moving country to country. They would move people from Russia to Ukraine and Ukraine to Russia, and every nation they had under their control, they would move them in between inside the Soviet Union, and they wanted to make against the mix of nations inside so they could not separate as easily because you would have your own people, people of different religions, nations, so they would always be opposite to the greater community. So that was one part of their politics at the time. I think it worked and in some ways it still works today because many people still are of different nations, but yet what people look now, is, actually, am I happy to be here? Happens to be that Ukraine is a happy place to live for many nations, whether it is Tatars in Crimea, they're really trying to put their voice in, they're unhappy under Russia, so forth. Even Russians themselves, that were living in Ukraine and working in Ukraine, have showed their voice on the TV and elsewhere that they are happy to be in Ukraine, that they don't want anything to do with Russia, since they are still really totalitarian minded because Ukraine started to move toward more democratic ways, more toward the west, they wanted to have things done differently because in Russia you still have that totalitarian view where you'd force someone to do something for you and they didn't want to have that. TS: Considering all the totalitarianism, especially within the Soviet Union, how did the Soviet Union, perhaps, control the Orthodox Church? I mean, from what I understand, the Soviet Union wanted to promote atheist values and I was curious, as to whether how they would, perhaps, control the church? IS: As far as I can see, they started to create different feast days, which were not Christian. Those would be the 8th of March, as they called it Universal Women’s Day, which in America, very little people know about 8th of March, and there's also other, like new year because the church new year would be 14th of January because the church didn't switch the calendar, even though, under the Soviet Union, we have changed the dates to the new calendar, but yet we are still following the old calendar. So our new year was after nativity. Whereas if you take the new calendar, it's a week before because there are thirteen days difference between the two calendars, Julian and Gregorian calendar. The feasts differentiate and so the first of January, for us, is still during lent when we're not really allowed to do any music or any fat foods and so forth. But they started to celebrate that feast a lot. There were also other feasts, they would march, celebration of victories from war and some other stuff. They would make up different names to do at a certain time, when we would do a certain feast. When we would have Pascha, our romaine feast for Easter, they would do something or make people to go and do work outside. Basically, you had to do it, it was a really forceful command, "go and do flowers by the city hall", and you would have to go, otherwise they would release you from your work and so people did differently. Some were obeying whether, but yet, at the times when they didn't work, they would come to church. Some would say no and just simply go to church and see what happens and people did other things. EK: Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask a question about your childhood. I wonder, did you frequently attend Orthodox Church events as a child? If so, could you give examples of these events? IS: Yes, we grew up in Church. Most of the time the priest lives by the church, so we would participate in all the feast days, where there was nativity, Easter, or any other. The main feast is Easter and twelve major feasts, but also every Sunday. I guess Pascha or Easter is the greatest feast for us; we would definitely do many things during that time. The Ukrainian tradition is also that during Easter we would, especially fun for young kids, because during Easter boys and girls would make circles, like chains, they would hold each other, and there was another smaller layer if they can, and walk around the church. That was something for young kids to show their strength and abilities, but it was also nice for other people to look for something. There was mostly boys doing it, but the girls would participate as well, but for the smaller kids or girls there were other activities done at that time. They would sing different songs and play different games during that time; I guess everyone was occupied by doing something. It was a great feast, they would celebrate in such a way that they would really enjoy because Easter is spring time, in spiritual terms as well, so we would really enjoy eating a meal, but also wearing all the bright colors during that time, so it was really amazing. TS: It seems that your church is a really good community builder. Could you, perhaps, go into more depth about the different ways the church strengthens community in all parts of the world? IS: Well, I guess the church itself is actually meaning the communion, and even our main service, liturgy, from the Greek, means work of the people. Even the priest cannot celebrate liturgy by himself, he would have to have more people, at least 2-3 people to celebrate the liturgy with. Even the governments of the church, in all Orthodox Church, is not governed by a bishop or a patriarch, it is governed by all the bishops. Even though we have countries with their own patriarch, but yet, they among themselves are equal. Even though we have a canonical patriarch in Istanbul, but yet he is considered to be first among equal. Anytime we would have certain main things done, they would be done in a Sabor or a council. In the Early church, we had eight canonical councils that had impact on the whole church. They would come, representatives from all churches, whether it was an issue of the holy trinity, issue of the icons, how we venerate them and so forth, and there were other major issues in the church, as they grew up spiritually, they had some difficulties because people started to interpret things differently, they started to create their own groups and so forth of their own teaching. But yet the church, as a whole, put their stand, here's what it is, here's how it is supposed to be after learning and researching the issue. Even today we have that sense, in the United States we have, every 3 years, the Sabor council, where we get all the clergy from the United States and laity and they would all participate in different groups, different questions that we need to decide for the country, for the United States. There is one Greek Orthodox council, which is planned in Crete this year, where all the Orthodox come for the council, so they are going to decide on the issues of whether it is a liturgical practice, whether it is issues of marriage or the calendar, or other things, or governments, so we have some problems that we need to decide. But no one can decide on those questions unless we all come together. TS: So you were saying how the Istanbul patriarch is equal in the eyes of the other bishops, so is equal voices in the council a very significant value of the church? IS: It was from the very beginnings, so even though the church does not claim that, or we do not say that we are democratic or so, we have our own style of governance. But it many ways, it looks like it is democratic because we unite all together to decide certain questions and then it applies to everyone else. Although there are some local, we allow local traditions, but they have to be on a different level because there is a bigger tradition that involves everybody. There are smaller and local traditions that involve just the local communities. EK: You have been, as a priest for a long time. I wonder what training or education you completed to become a priest. IS: Well, I went to Boston school, Greek Holy Cross Theological School, and it was Master of Divinity. Before that I graduated from computer Science College in Ukraine. So basically you would have to have undergrad before you went into the Master of Divinity. Those that did not have, the school has a program in its place. I believe it is called Hellenic college, where you could take any other undergrad area in their school, or elsewhere, and just come to and participate in the higher level there. TS: Are there any experiences outside of your structured education that you consider to be incredibly valuable to your experience as a priest today? IS: Well, definitely, I would say all the experience I have received, whether it's in Ukraine or Canada, or in United States, outside of the church has place in the church as well. I graduated from Computer Science College, so now I able to do things for the church that we didn't have to call other people or pay people for that job. So basically whether it's a website, a publication, computers, I am able to do that so we have many clergy of different backgrounds. Some are doctors, some are known in woodwork, some are known in different ways so we have different and really rich background of clergy that can do different things, which, I guess, helping the community like the previous priest would have different, father Loric, during his time the church rectory was built and the memorial center. He was very well known with his music, he was known for his musical talents, so he would read and write music, he would play music, so he had that talent. The church now uses his music and now a days we still hear all this, even up to today, so it didn't lost value or anything like that. Anything you can do, you can apply in a good way to the church. TS: Studying computer science, you obviously must have a lot of skills in that area. How do you apply that to modern Orthodox Church today, and also, you mentioned that you are part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Word Magazine, so I would imagine that you would have a lot to offer with your computer skills. IS: Well, you may probably know that you have to constantly learn in the computer science because I graduated with computer science in 2001, right just before I went to Canada. Since then many things have changed. What I learned then is different today so I had to completely update myself and learn new languages, learn new programs, and stuff. But at least it gave me a base that I can then jump from there, elsewhere without much hesitation or struggle. I wasn't a publisher, where I didn't know what publishing program before, but there was opportunity to do something with publishing and I, within a short period of time, was able to accommodate the program and learn how to do things. I guess it's easier for a person that has some underground in computers to learn things than to say someone that did not have experience with computers to learn this program. I guess in that way it makes my life easier, it makes the main office life easier. And I started to learn with many things I started to do at the office, were not the things you learn in school. In school you learn basics, but when you go to the workplace, you have to really adjust yourself and learn more things and specifics of certain things you can adjust. And it's also good for publishing books because I'm also on the liturgical commission that I help publish the books and lay out. Since we do it in two languages, English and Ukrainian, so I have to make sure that we have two sides on each page, but there are programs that can do that. I guess we use our talents to simplify and make life easier for many people not just ourselves and use our talents for the glory of god and basically the goal. TS: Further expand your message-- and then you also mentioned, in regards to schooling, you went to Greek Orthodox School for your studies. I was curious, as to if you can elaborate on the differences between Ukrainian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox? IS: The differences? TS: Possibly the similarities? IS: I guess the theology is the same. We are all Orthodox and now we are all in communion. The differences between Greek Church, and Ukrainian, or Russian is that we are in different calendars. They, in 1922, the Greek Church switched to new calendar, whereas the Slavic church did not. So, we still keep the old calendar and so the calendar is the difference. What unites us is the Easter, the Pascha because that is the only day that we have or period of days that we have the same. We would celebrate the Great Lent before Pascha, before Easter, so we have this period the same. There is some specific dates that are different and the calendars are different, yet the Pascha, itself, is the uniting feast day that we all celebrate, as Orthodox. EK: I also wonder your opinions about American traditions or customs. Are there any American traditions or hobbies, activities, large-scale cultural events you find interesting, fun, or rather odd? IS: Well, certainly, the church integrates itself in the community and of course people come from the community and bring, I guess, the American tradition with them. You cannot really do anything with that and some of them are not harmful. Whether it is a tradition has something to do with the Christmas, even though the story maybe, I guess, completely different from the Christian stories, yet there are some Christmas songs or other things they do similar or for Easter they use bunnies, which that has nothing to do with Pascha itself, yet, I mean it's spring, it's first animals running around. You just accept them, they're not really harmful to the faith itself. We try to explain that to people, they know but it's something nice and it's available in stores. I guess the egg hunt is something unique that I did not know in Ukraine, but here in the United States and Canada, it's really popular among the kids and they love it. Even at home they play egg hunt all year. I guess people like to search things out, the feeling of searching something and finding. You give them hints or you don't give them hints and they like that feeling "I can find it, just give me one hint and I'll try to find it. Something Red. What's red?" Everything red is starting to flicker on! I guess there is some fun in the church as well, it's not that bad. And I guess what's unique in Canada and the United States from Ukraine and Russia is that the churches are built in a smaller communities. And so they started to build those memorials or cultural centers beside the church, so they would have those cultural centers, social clubs, which is not present in Ukraine or Russia. In Russia and Ukraine you would only have the church and you could have some other buildings, but they are not necessarily be a cultural center because the whole church, the whole country, or majority of the country or citizens is Orthodox or Christians. You would have one whole for everybody else and Ukrainian language is the number one language, everyone would use different clubs established for that purpose. There was no need to establish that beside the church, whereas here everybody tries to preserve its own language, community, and so they want to have a place where they come and do things together, so they had to build those cultural centers, so I think that's a unique and also after services, we'd go and have a coffee, have meals and there were often times we'd do other things. Even this parish, in particular, has a strong tradition of raising money from the catering services at the hall to build this church, build this rectory and to sustain itself. Whereas in Ukraine, you don't have that. People just donate their time, talent, and money for the upkeep of the church itself, but there was nothing else for upkeep. And then we have the parish we have in Ukraine, certain Orphanages, certain nurseries and stuff, but here it has a little different shift because the church and the community kind of gather together in one thing. TS: So that's sort of something that appears to be unique here in America. For instance, church is the epicenter of all the activities and everything. Also with universities, they include all the activities and in most parts of Europe that is generally not the case, whereas in university it is meant for strictly educational purposes. Do you have any thoughts on these differences? IS: Yeah in America and because of that vast variety of traditions and languages and nations that you have possibilities to have different areas in the universities in the nation. Some, especially some larger universities would have areas of Russia and different European languages so they would study just that area. Whereas in Ukraine, you may have such schools in the capital city where they would learn something like that, but in the majority of the county you don't have that. And also in Ukraine because it's a mostly Christian country, the government itself has certain things already done for its people, so it's not the church doing the thing, it's the government has done it. And I'm sure it's similar in turkey when they do things or elsewhere when the government does something for the people, even though it does not necessarily have to recognize it, that's the only thing we recognize, yet they will build something for the community that they can use it for the benefit of the community. TS: And you also mentioned a lot of large-scale cultural events here in America. Are there large-scale events in the Ukraine? IS: Yes, but I guess the difference between here and there would be the organizers here would be the parish or the national office. Whereas in Ukraine, you would have regular schools doing things. I guess the shift is who is organizing and who is teaching. In Ukraine, you have religious class in each school, where you would learn something about its Orthodox religion in school. There is one class, where the priest or some lady would come and teach the class to the smaller kids. Whereas here, the church has to or the parish has to teach them in Sunday school. Even though we did have Sunday schools in Ukraine, I believe it was during the Soviet Union, my father would gather all the kids in church and would do a class and explain what icons mean, give them a better outlook on what we have so they can better understand. But now it's done more in schools in Ukraine, whereas here, you don't learn that in school. You have to go to church school to learn that. Also the difference is if you participate in different sports, which nowadays is during the Sunday, kids do not participate in the church so they do not get to Sunday school classes because during the week it's impossible to get them because they have different things going on anyway. But on Sundays has been taken away here so we struggle with the way it's been managed in the community. I know many communities have gathered together and asked those big associations "do not do anything until 2 o'clock on Sunday" so they can have those kids in those services and Sunday school but it's still a big problem. EK: Maybe we can prepare more general questions for the rest of our time. I wonder how you describe America to people of your home country. IS: Well, it's a free country where you can express yourself without much limitations, as in Ukraine they have so much oppression. Whoever is in charge of Ukraine land would do certain things we would not allow in Ukraine land, but you would have to learn Russian or in Poland, you would have to learn polish language and so forth. Whereas here, you're free to use your own language without being scared and so forth. I guess the feeling of being free to do things without followed by people that you're doing something wrong. I mean it's a simple thing that you can express yourself that doesn't have to be punished for. TS: With the increasing Russian totalitarianism with Vladimir Putin, what do you think of his rationale to invade the Crimea and other sort of invasions in the Ukraine? IS: Well there was a, they call "Russian World" or certain organization to compile the same or similar Soviet Union that they had before but they would have different ideas of how to do it. Like they would use Orthodox Church, use Christianity itself as a base. Even though they would not necessarily be Christian, they would not necessarily hold Orthodox values, but they would use it for their own benefit. Now it's being recovered in many cases, where there are still people, even in the Ukraine itself, where they would still wanted to say Byelorussian and Ukraine are Slavic nations that need to be held together and be one nation so that they claimed that everyone tries to separate us so let's be together so we can be a strong nation and so forth. So they manipulate in many ways not to have many countries, but have something strong as the Soviet Union because Russia itself is composed of many different countries and they're not Orthodox, they're of many religions as well. So the Orthodox in Russia, if I'm not wrong, I believe Ukrainian popularity of Orthodox is more popular than Russia itself of Orthodox. This is why Russia has so much pressure on Ukraine because it has so many involved in there. They don't simply want to release it because it is a great manipulation for the government if they use it to manipulate the people. If you have control over certain things, it is really easy to manipulate and press the higher authorities to make lower authorities do something else. TS: And Ukraine is also considered the historical birthplace of that Slavic culture too and Russia is trying to-- IS: Because Russia, in Ukrainian eyes, is the daughter country, but many would say that mother Russia and daughter Kiev, they try to flip things over, but they try to rewrite history and make it a different way. I guess for especially Ukrainians, it's really offensive and they don't like to hear that. [Laughing] TS: Nature of totalitarianism, right? [Laughing] EK: I wondered what possessions you took with you. What important things, if any, did you leave behind? Is there anything you regret leaving behind? IS: Certainly the greater community, as everybody, Ukrainian and Orthodox is sad that I left. I guess you didn't have to worry about your language, you didn't have to worry about your religion. You just go and have fun with whoever you meet, whereas here in America, you have to be careful, not careful but you will not make friends if they don't have the same values as you are or I guess the same traditions. It will be hard to live together if you are not of the same background or at least, if you try to preserve the tradition and language, it will be hard to live with someone who doesn't care about it. They would have to be respective of the traditions and faith that you're, so the two accommodate. TS: So, when you arrived in North America, were there certain core aspects of your life that had changed? Such as your diet, your activities, and your social life? IS: Well there is certainly, I can feel on my body the less I move, it gathers more [laughter]. I have to be careful, in Ukraine that was not the case. We did not have our own vehicles, so we would always travel by bus or other transportation. But most of the time you would walk distances, whether it's church, school. There are no school buses, so most of the time you would walk to school. You would be fit in that way, whereas in America, you have to use vehicle to go to the store, you have use vehicle to go to school, to go elsewhere, and moving less because of that makes you, you have to spend more time in gym and other physical activities to compensate that. So I would see that as a big difference because you don't notice at first, but then over time, you see oh "I have to watch my diet now". I guess the food here is different is as well because many things are really fabricated and done in different ways and uses different ingredients. Whereas in Ukraine, for most of the part, it's done locally from good ingredients. Even though nowadays they use new technology, they use the same things that they use in Europe and America, but yet they will still keep the tradition to use just simply bare products without any chemical interactions or GMO or stuff, so they would really, in that sense. And also in Ukraine, many people own a land. They don't have to own the whole farm like we have here in America where person owns a big area of land where they cultivate and make money from. In Ukraine, everybody has a small, they would have a big area, but at least it is small compared to United States, area where they would have their own potatoes, have their own vegetables, and fruits. You would build yourself, using all those natural sources. Even water, many people in Ukraine still use wells, especially in the villages you would have wells, you have to have. If not, your neighbor has it, so you share it and so forth. Whereas in America, it is not allowed because of bacteria and stuff. TS: What do you think about how America is sort of very fixated on their diet and other things to combat these sorts of diseases that come with increased obesity? Do you think America could benefit from the Ukrainian transportation services and more locally based communities, such as small farming that you mentioned, and other sorts of things that seem to occur in urban planning over in that area? IS: Well, I think it depends where how you look or from what angle you look. Of course, the more you sustain yourself and have your own produce, it is beneficial for the person has those sources, but of course it is damaging for the businesses that have been doing the great business for many years. But I think it is beneficial for a person, and community in general, where a person is active and doing things to support itself without looking into something crazy. Sometimes people are really bored because they don't know what to do, but you always have something to do, you have to cultivate your land and stuff, and the result of it is something to do so there is no time that you can just say there's nothing for me to do here. In that way you don't have as many crazy ideas on what to do with your life and the obesity rates will be lower. But also, the Orthodox faith itself has a great practice of fasting. We have 4 major fasts during the year. One great fast is before Easter, so it's forty-nine days before Easter, forty days major, and then there is a week before Easter. So in that time, we would not have meat or milk products and in some communities even oil isn't allowed on certain days. So if you don't eat those products during this time, your body cleanses, you really see the difference and you can literally get from 5 pounds and more. If you are really into the fasting, you can have 20 pounds just like that during the great lent. We also have other smaller Lents that last for weeks, two weeks and one is variation depending on the Pascha. So, if you use those days, you certainly lose your weight, whether you want or not because you're fasting. But it was also during the year, Wednesdays and Fridays also are fasting days, even though they're not as strict, but yet, in some communities, they are really strict during the Great lent. So you would fast during those days, you have two days per week of fasting and if you're preparing for the communion, there is also a certain fasting period beforehand that you have to prepare yourself. We have certain, life itself in the Orthodox faith makes you, if you're really participating, you're not going to be obese because if you really follow it, it will not happen. At least you will not be as obese, maybe a little extra weight but not as bad. The faith itself teaches Christians how to control yourself, how to set limits on food, how to set limits on other things, and how to control yourself not to get in trouble using those bad habits, smoking, drinking, drugs, and so forth. So I believe, in that area, the church really benefits the community because it will help control all those negative things in the community if you really try to help people because it's really helping. It's not something damaging. TS: And also it seems to show how people value their food and where it comes from and everything during those times of fasting. There's also those health promotional events. IS: Yeah, and also the food itself is for all the Orthodox. It's something we considered that god provided even though we can purchase that food, someone can donate the food and so forth, we consider it as something that god helped us sustain ourselves. So we pray before each meal, we blast the food. In Pascha, we blast the meat and dairy products for us to eat. It's not that it's evil for us to eat during lent and period, but it's a blessing done so everyone can eat but also to have limits for us to work on all those but to also be wise enough not to overcome those limits. EK: We are almost out of time for the interview. I would like to ask one more question before we finish the interview. I wonder that do you ever feel homesick. IS: Well, not really because I have so many things to do and I constantly have things to do so I don't really have time to think about it. But I do sometimes, I guess during the winter, it's snowy all the time and you cannot really even go outside that makes me sometimes wonder to go south somewhere and enjoy some sun a little bit, warm up. Since we have so much frost here, my hands sometimes get numb and stuff. But other than that-- TS: Just want to go down south where it's warm [laughing]-- Well it's been a very productive interview. Thank you so much for volunteering your time and providing us this opportunity. It's been fascinating to learn about your experiences, culture, and the great Orthodox Church. IS: Sure, anytime. EK: Thank you for your contributions to the interview and thank you for your sincere answers to our questions. IS: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ivan Synevsky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Synevsky, Ivan ; Konuk, Ege ; Sherven, Tyler Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Father Ivan Synevsky was born in Western Ukraine region in 1982. He lived in Ukraine until 2001, when he moved to Canada. He lived in Canada for six years, then got married in the United States in 2007. He attended Holy Cross Greek Theological School in Boston from 2008 to 2010, then was ordained in 2010 in Rhode Island. He had a parish in New Jersey for two years and in 2012, he was transferred to the local parish. He resides in Johnson City with his wife and three children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ivan Synevsky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-20 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:24 Subject The topic of the resource Synevsky, Ivan. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian—Canadian; Ukraine—History; Soviet Union--History; Eastern Orthodox Church; Priest; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Russia-- History; Broome County (N.Y.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fe20f845a4a198b9e735f270b5562e93.mp3 f061f0566fa36e01cf75ea18785de5f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexandra Kiosse Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julia Kiosse Biographical Text Julia Kiosse was the daughter of a Russian native and a native Moldovan. She immigrated to the United States in 1998 with her daughter, but without her husband as he could not get the proper documents in time. She lived in a small apartment in Brooklyn for one year before she moved back to Moldova to be with her husband. She moved with her family to the United States in 2000 and settled in Brooklyn. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:48 minutes Date of Interview 2016-03-26 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Kiosse, Julia. --Interviews; Moldovans<span xml:lang="en" property="madsrdf:authoritativeLabel skos:prefLabel"></span>--United States; Russians<span xml:lang="en" property="madsrdf:authoritativeLabel skos:prefLabel"></span>--United States; Diaspora, Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Moldova -- History; Glasnost--Soviet Union; Migrations; Communism; City and town life--New York (State)--New York OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=JuliaKiosse.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Russians; Moldova; Volleyball players Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Julia Kiosse Interviewed by: Alexandra Kiosse Transcriber: Alexandra Kiosse Date of interview: 26 March 2016 at 11:00 am Interview Setting: Julia's kitchen in Brooklyn, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Alexandra Kiosse: Can you please tell me your full name, what year you were born, where you lived as a child, and when you moved to America? Julia Kiosse: Alright my name is Julia Kiosse, I was born in December 12, 1975. I was born in Liv in Moldova, one of the ex-Soviet Union republics until twenty-two/twenty-three years old. AK: So, what year did you move to America? JK: It was in 2000, so I was actually twenty-five. Twenty-five years old. AK: And, what is your profession? JK: Here, I become actually a freight forwarder, and I'm working in the logistics industry. AK: I will start from the past and move to the present. So, we learned that the 90's were hard economically for the former Soviet Union. Were you, and how were you, affected by this? JK: Yes, of course. I remember these years. I was about to graduate school. It was time when the Soviet Union were splitting apart, all republics, and it was very difficult economically wise situation. It was time when the government didn't pay any salaries to their employees, to the people. My father worked for a sports school, he was the coach, and he was not receiving his salary for three, four, five months. So, it was a big deal. It simply affected our eating habits; simply. So I'm not talking about something, you know, specific but simply food wise it was difficult. AK: So, what was the common food, what did everyone eat? JK: You know, we are from Moldova so it's a lot of vegetables, but it's also seasonal vegetables because [if] it's still winter in affect so basically, you know, potatoes, very common beets, cabbage, onions. Very common vegetables. And of course cereal, pasta, you know, this is most common. Milk, bread, something like this. AK: Was there a noticeable change in the society when the Soviet Union fell? So, from '90 or '91 to 93' for example? JK: Yes of course. You can feel it, you know, it was difficult time for everybody. Everybody was scared. At the same time we got some feeling of freedom, but we didn't know what to do with this freedom because it was like we were always living in certain frames. So all of a sudden we hear about freedom and democracy, we didn't know what to do with this. You know, it was very broad-some kind of term that we heard, but we didn't know how to eat this democracy. So people were kind of scared, puzzled, hungry, and angry also. Because some people were very conservative when we lived building all our lives communism and all of a sudden, you know, this idea falls apart. It was also a lot of disappointment because all of a sudden we realized, so, what's next? It's kind of like a target that all of your life, all of a sudden disappeared. So it was very difficult time. AK: So you said it was confusing. What did you hear on the news? What did the news tell you? JK: You see, I was still very young girl. For me it was, you know, news I didn't watch much news. But they were saying a lot about democracy, glasnost, you know it was very common term Gorbachev implemented. Which means that, glasnost¸ you can say whatever you want to say. Which is big deal because, you know, before we lived and we know that we have to filter whatever we're saying. You can say something inside of your family, in the kitchen, but god forbid to say it somewhere out loud. So glasnost, and these were the major terms that were on the T.V. Democracy, what to do, who killed what, what's going on, and it was more friendly relationships with other countries. All of a sudden, we start hearing some stuff that we never heard before on the T.V. That, all of a sudden America become more friendly, or other countries exist and what people do there, and how they're living, and showing some T.V programs about life overseas. It was kind of you know very interesting because we never saw this before. It was kind of eye-opening situation. AK: When you were in school what did you learn about America, or what were your impressions about America? JK: It was something at the same time strange, forbidden, and also magically interesting, because we didn't know much about America. We just knew, as a kid, as a child, I knew Levi jeans, I knew some chewing gums, Coca Cola. This was very trendy. And it was, you know, it was not in the stores. You couldn't buy this stuff in the stores, you could only buy it on the black market, it was very expensive. So regular people would not even have, so it was something not reachable, you know, like desirable. So this was. As a child, I remember this America. But otherwise we knew that, you know, it's a lot of bad stuff in America. Like discrimination of black people, they always showing us very scary picture of American life. You know, so we didn't know much. We knew that people living much better there but we didn't know exactly what's going on there. And one of my favorite characters from the United States was Samantha-Samantha, what was her last name I cannot recall- but she came with the Gorbachev time. She was one of the girls that we had exchange program as an open-mind program. So we sent some girl to United States, and Samantha came to us as a peace visitor from the United States. Very cute, very nice-looking girl, so we kind of realized that oh Americans are actually nice-looking people. AK: Why do you think that they had this exchange program? JK: It was after a certain period of time, so when Gorbachev actually announced this glasnost and democracy, and you know it was more open to all of us to American people and Russian people. So it was one of the first steps on the normal-people level to exchange views. And you know simply to basically say "hello" to each other. AK: About America, what did people around you say? Like what did your family say about America, was it nice or did they criticize America? JK: You see, our family is a Jewish family. So, we have some Jewish roots and we knew, I knew even as a child, for a long time that we will immigrate from this country, from Russia. Because it was, we all understood that this was not normal life that we're living. It is not normal that people with education (like chemical engineer, my mom, and my father who was a coach with a Bachelor's degree) barely making to exist, barely making money to exist. So, it was always some kind of drugging, it was always a terrible situation that we lived. I cannot say "terrible" but we know that people can live better, and we don't understand what we can do in order to do it. You know, you cannot work more, you cannot work harder. It would not help you, you know, it's just the situation that you were living. No matter how hard you were working you still get the same salary. So we were planning to immigrate long time ago, and I knew it as a child, so we were always looking toward America or Germany, and the third option was Israel. So we were always looking to United States as our potential new home. So we didn't know much. We heard a lot of minuses from life in the United States. We understood, of course, all benefits of living in United States, but we didn't know exactly what's going on because we'd never been there. AK: What about the United States appealed to you? What appealed to you while you were living in Moldova, why did you choose the United States? JK: I saw already that it will be my potential, my life. I knew that my mind was already programmed that I'm going there to live another life, better quality life. So, I somehow on intuition level I knew that it is better there. AK: Tell me about your childhood, what did you do in your free time as a child? JK: We were playing outside a lot. Most of time we were spending outside playing ball, climbing on trees, playing hide-and-seek, bicycling. You know, outside games mostly. AK: So, you disappeared in the morning and came back at night? JK: On Saturday and Sunday yes, and then mom periodically was screaming from the window "go home it's time to eat, go home you need to clean up." And then I would clean up or eat and then go again outside, so it was always a lot of kids outside because there was not a lot of toys at home and then because we were very active so it was always pleasure for us to be outside. AK: When you were younger, elementary school or middle school, did you have a childhood hero or someone you looked up to? JK: I don't recall. I think it was probably elementary school and probably part of middle school, it was very communist heroes. First of all it was Lenin, because we tried to get this little znachok, how do you call it, pin on your school form with Lenin's portrait, a little star and inside it was Lenin's picture. We were told that best kids would get this pin. Not everybody-you have to behave, you have to be a good child. It means that you have to, besides school you have to treat other people well, you have to give your seat in the bus to the elderly and pregnant women. You cannot throw garbage on the street, you cannot do this and this and this. We were trying to behave basically. Then, because children are more, you know you can give them idea and they easily take this idea. So, they kind of following this. And then of course we had the pioneer, we tried to be good pioneers. It was a big deal. So you behave, and everything. You know if you do something wrong, people would say "no, you cannot do this because you will not be a pioneer! So, it was a big deal. And then we had also a lot of movies about war and about some children, patriotic children, that were killing Nazi people and we try also to be the same kind of hero. Some kind of propaganda I would say. It was not Snow White or something like this. No we didn't have something like this. AK: Would you say the feelings toward communism were positive? JK: Yeah it definitely had some positive moments. It's like a religion, it's basically putting you in some behavior frame that you have to behave, especially when the propaganda is working so well, for so many years, that you believe in this. And yes, it disciplines you, especially children, I remember this very well. I would say the scariest part for me was that I would not be a pioneer if I would not behave well. So, it was very motivated reasons to be a good person. Of course there was some positive moments. I can say it for sure. AK: Do you think communism ultimately failed because of what it was as a system or because of something else, maybe because of some leaders or how they led the system? JK: No, I think it's the idea. The older I become I understand that this is all baloney, all these ideas. You see in reality when you grow up that yeah you become a pioneer, but a bunch of other bad people become pioneers too. And actually these bad people can play against you just with some kind of secret report that you didn't behave as a proper communist, or something like that. Or basically when you grow up and you go out of college, you get the same salary that person who was fooling around. So it was this, everybody was equal. And then at certain point you got disappointed because it's like, "what is this? I work hard, I study, I tried, I'm working hard, I'm trying to be a good employee but by the end nobody will notice this." They would only give you some piece of paper saying that you're the best employee, but you cannot deposit this into your bank account. By the end it's just like when you have hundreds of these notes, they already cover your bathroom, but you don't have paper towels. You have no money. It works great for small children, but when you grow up and you need real life you understand that something is not clicking together, something is missing here. AK: What was your education after high school? JK: I went to college and I started my education in college. I graduated in three years in college and then we decided to immigrate. I got married and we were going to the United States. So I quit basically college. AK: So did you continue on your education here? JK: Yes, I went right away here. I got into college and I got my Associate's degree then I moved to Bachelor's degree, and I was working on a Master's degree but I never graduated. I have to come back and finish. AK: What was your first job after graduating from college? JK: Here in the United States, my first job that I used my education was job in the airport. I was working in the freight department of Virgin Atlantic, handling import and export of Virgin Atlantic in JFK. AK: Do you think that your education in Moldova or your education throughout your whole life, from elementary school to high school to college, do you think that affected how you studied or how you learned in America? JK: Definitely, definitely. We had very good, I think, level of education in [Moldova]. It was a lot of people in school, teachers and counselors that were full of ideas to educate the pioneers. They treat their job pretty well and level of education system was not bad at all. I like it and I see that when I came, I feel that my background was much more ahead of people that I worked with, people in JFK airport who only had high school diploma or a little more. I saw that there were many things they did that they had no idea of. Their education level was behind mine. AK: What differences do you see, whether they are culturally, educationally, behaviorally, between kids in Moldova, when you were a child, and kids now in America? JK: It is a difference. I think that in Moldova, education was much better. Much better. It's much more wider, it's much more serious, deep. Even though I was surprised that kids here start reading much much earlier than in Moldova. Both of my daughters started reading here at age six. At six in Moldova, you were still running with a ball outside, have no idea about books or reading. So, we started at seven or eight, my first grade I was eight because I was a December child. AK: The same question, but what do you think about kids socially? How do you think kids are different in the former Soviet Union than they are now here in America? JK: It has nothing to do with the Soviet Union or the United States now. It's just the technology level, I think now no matter what, even in Moldova now, it's different because technology is killing, unfortunately, social skills. Kids are growing from toddler age with iPads, phones. They like to play games and it has also a lot of pluses but it's also a big minus towards social skills unfortunately. So we were much more open in the old times because we had no devices. Toys were not so sophisticated, so even if you had a doll you better take it out and play with your girlfriends outside, making some dresses together because there weren't many dresses for girls, you had to do it yourself mostly with some colored paper, construction paper. It was a lot of fun, you were sharing ideas of how to do it. Some kids were more creative. It was cool. AK: Your dad was a coach, so how did sports affect your life as a child and adolescent and how was that affecting your social life as well. JK: It affected me a lot. It basically formed my character because volleyball is a team sport and as any sport it requires to have some basic character to be able to perform, to be able to fight no matter what's the reason. Basically once you're on the field you playing for the ball, fighting for the ball, winning ball. But then it becomes your life and you're fighting for your interests in this life, in a good way of course. You're not hitting anybody; you're not hitting your partners on another team. So you are just fighting to reach some goal in your life. AK: So again, what difference do you see between athletics when you were a kid in Moldova and athletics here? JK: I see a big difference. I think its connection of educational approach here and over there. It's a different mentality, people have a different approach. Here sports clubs are more hobbies. When kids are coming if child is overweight, they taking the girl to gymnastics or ballet just to fix this weight situation. In Moldova or Soviet Union, nobody would get the idea to bring an overweight girl to a ballet class, because it was just not acceptable. It's a different approach, first of all. There, kids are going to play sport and they see that they have to win, they have to perform, they have to give some results. Here it's more parents' drive that their children will be playing or doing some sports, and its more hobby, it's more for pleasure. It's not so serious as it was in Soviet Union, and I think that they still have the same approach there. So here coach would never criticize your child seriously, never treat it seriously. Over there it's a job, sports activity was a job. AK: So, what were you striving for, what was your goal when you were playing sports? JK: I wanted to be a good athlete, I wanted to achieve something. We had category of sportsmen, we had some kind of achievements in sports. You can be a candidate, we called it candidat mastera sporta and master of sport. We had category one, category two. So through your sport career you achieve, step by step, better and better category. And of course volleyball is a team job so you have to try to get into better team. First it was on the republic level, because it was Moldova Republic. Then you have to try to get on the Soviet Union team, and then perform on an international level. So, it was always some kind of goal, because it was a chance to live a little bit better life. To get out of this equality of the people. AK: What was your biggest achievement in volleyball? JK: I was playing for Republic of Moldova team, as a member of the Republic of Moldova team. AK: Who did you play? JK: I was playing, how do you call it, passuyushey, how do you call it. AK: Setter. JK: Yes, setter. As a setter. My height is not tall enough as is required for volleyball, so best position for me was to be a setter. I was running fast and setting tall girls to hit hard. AK: Who did you play, like what countries or what other teams did you play? JK: Normally it was a competition through the Soviet Union, between Soviet Union republics. So, all fifteen republics we played. Again, Moldova is normally not such a tall people like Russia or Ukraine, so we were not achieving some big results as these republics, but we were pretty good. We also performed on international level, but all this international level was only in the frame of the Soviet camp countries, like Romania, Poland, who was next to us. Yeah Romania and Poland were the biggest competitions. I don't think we participated in any other levels. It was only our neighbor countries. AK: Do you still talk to your former teammates or your former friends from Moldova? JK: Yes sometimes, sometimes. They are still living there and you know we lost connection, close connection I would say. Our normal conversation is ending up "How's everything, everything's fine. How's people, how's family." And to go somewhere deeper it doesn't have any sense because were so far away from each other. They're living their lives, they have their own troubles, problems, and achievements. Here is different approach so. I don't think it makes sense to go deeper into problems that each of us have. We just say everything is fine, okay good good. AK: Do they ever ask any interesting questions about America? JK: Not much, I think everyone knows about what's going on here so it's not a crazy country or something. But sometimes you can hear from people living there, especially now with all this brainwashing from Putin's regime. They think that we are acting this way against Putin because we have a propaganda here, and we not allowed to talk openly or whatever we're writing them, they think that we have to write it because our Facebook and Skype is controlled, and we have to do it. So they kind of whispering to us "it's fine it's fine, we know that you cannot say anything, its fine." It's kind of funny. AK: What do you think about Putin's regime? How does it affect America, and how is it affecting the Russian people? JK: It affects a lot. It's kind of sad because living here we kind of see the situation in Russia a little bit outside. I'm not normally watching even American news, I'm watching local American Brooklyn channels just to see what's going on in my city but I'm not much involved in politics, or propaganda because it just doesn't interest me. I'm not watching news, so I cannot say that I'm brainwashed by Americans that Russia is bad or something like that. I just see from outside that whatever we have been living with, not everything is right. We have to look at the problems or situation differently. And people who still continue living there, they looking at the problems differently. So mentally we are already from different camps. So I see that people are relying a lot on the T.Vs, the main channels that work in Russia, and they taking it really seriously and truly that this is reality. They don't want to even bother to go to internet and do some kind of research, and compare and analyze. They're taking it as it was during Soviet Union time, as they said. So they taking it without even analyzing and then they believe whatever they hear on the T.V, and this is kind of sad. AK: So, we interviewed a Russian student in Binghamton on Wednesday, and she mentioned that, not here friends, not her generation, but the generation above her (parents and grandparents), when they found out she was coming to America they told her “Tell Obama what we think of him." So what do you think they meant by that, what do they think of him? JK: Yeah, again they are victims of propaganda. My husband, when he travelled five years ago to Moldova, he was actually shocked. I think he still has some kind of homesickness but when he visited last time, he was very disappointed that even close relatives start asking him why did Americans torture Russian kids. Because apparently, it was a big topic on Russian T.V that few American people, few American families adopt Russian children from foster house, and something happened unfortunately to these children. And I think that it's thousands of kids been adopted, but only, let's say, five families screwed up. They didn't do their job properly, unfortunately you cannot control people. Sometimes it's really not good families that these Russian children, or any other children getting in. So, it's a tragedy, but it's tool for propaganda to switch this fact and show to Russian people that "you see how Americans torture Russian kids, on purpose." It's funny for us because this family, if they are idiots and they didn't treat their child properly, it's not because [the kid is] Russian it's just because they are sick for some reason. It's not because it's a Russian child, or Brazilian, or Japanese or something like that, they just sick people, they don't know how to treat kids. But Russian propaganda use it in their own advantage to show Russian people that "Look, look what they did." And relatives of my husband when he visits, they specifically seriously asked him "why do you do this, what's the reason? Why do you torture Russian kids?" And he's like "What kids, what are you talking about?" and they say "Yeah on the Russian TV its so many cases, you cannot now adopt Russian kids. We truly understand this and we're against Americans to adopt Russian kids." My husband was first shocked, and then he started laughing because this is ridiculous. It's grown-up people, people he knows. It's not some idiots, it's people from his family that he knows are nice, kind people. But they're asking really ridiculous questions, and we see that it's because they are victims of this propaganda, it's nothing else. It's not because they really think about it. Another question was "why did you invade Yugoslavia, why did you bomb Yugoslavia? Get out of wherever, some islands. Get out of Poland." And these are people who work hard, they have much more troubles in their lives to discuss than discuss this situation, political situation. And they didn't see my husband for at least five, seven years. And one of the questions that was important that they decided to ask was why Americans are doing something. I think its poor brainwashing. People are so preoccupied with these ideas that the T.V is sending them, that they cannot even hold it. This is one of the first questions they ask their relative after not seeing them for five, seven years. AK: When you came to America, did you have anything like that happen to you here? Did people have any funny questions or biases towards to you because you were Russian, or you spoke Russian, and had a Russian accent? JK: No, I was actually surprised that Americans are very friendly people, very open people. I think especially people from Latin America, all this mix that United States has with nationality and races, it's kind of making this cute combination and most of these people are immigrants so they kind of treat us very well. Surprisingly well for us because our language was very bad. I remember situations on the street when you tried to get somewhere and you're trying to ask on your broken English how to get somewhere. And when you hear these instructions, directions where to go and you're confused because you don't understand anything, people simply walk you towards some direction so you can find your own path. For me it was big surprise because in Soviet Union we were not tolerant at all to some accents or some bad Russian language. So it was not accepted. We would probably turn around, or laugh out loud on the level that this human being is talking. AK: When you first moved to the United States, what were your biggest worries and concerns? What was the hardest part? JK: Language of course. You feel yourself like a dog, that understands with smart eyes, understands what's going on but cannot say anything. It was one of the scariest parts; that you trying to survive, you're trying to make money, but you simply cannot talk. So it was very depressing and hardest point. But then once I started talking, even in my bad language, I understand that people are willing to listen to you. They see that you can do something, that you are not a bad person that you are cooperating, and Americans will work with you no matter how bad your language is. AK: What about economically when you first moved to the United States? JK: I think that it was a blessing for me especially, because when we came to the United States, simply the welfare that I was getting from the government, it was a much better financial situation than I was living in Moldova. Because I was a student, and then I got married, I didn't work so I depended on my husband, and my husband was making money but it was basic needs. We were able to save some money on a car and this and this, but here I start living my own life, trying to bring my own money to family. I was surprised that I was getting from the government every month Food Stamps that allowed me to eat very well and some cash amount. It was not covering my rent, but still it was a big help toward my life. I cannot say that I feel bad economically, it was a good help for me to start my American life, to go to school and everything. AK: Looking back now, what was your greatest accomplishment in America? JK: I'm still working on my accomplishments, and I think that that's why I love America. It never stops, no matter what age you are, what is your social status, or anything like this. You can always achieve something, whatever you're dreaming of. I'm talking about achieving some goals financially, and just whatever your dreams are. Let's say if you, you know, I'm still playing volleyball and I'm enjoying this, so I have to opportunity to play after my business hours. It's also small achievements because I'm doing stuff that I like to do. I'm still working on my professional level, I have a plan to graduate my Master's degree. I'm not afraid, in Russia I'd probably be puzzles to go to school when I'm forty. Here I know that no matter what is my age, I still can do it online, I still can accomplish, it is not a big deal. So I like it, I see my future full of plans, full of achievements. I think it's a lot of possibilities. You can take a lot of classes, I'm planning one day to improve my English, I'm still thinking when my children grow up and I don't have to spend money on them, for their education, maybe one day I will take some tutor that can instruct me and teach me to speak English better. Maybe some other language. So it's a lot of things that you can improve yourself, and I like it. AK: So you spoke about getting your Master's, what do you expect to get from getting a Master's degree and where do you want to be in twenty years let's say? JK: I'm getting older so I'm hoping to maybe get some job that will pay me even more, but have more benefits toward my pension. Maybe less working hours, or something flexible. It's hard to say, I'm very happy right now so I can't complain. That's why I'm probably not rushing to graduate my Master's degree. But I think that it will give me more potential to find something better, just simply. It's just an additional skill that I can put on the table, if I need it. AK: This is a hard question; how do you identify culturally? Would you say you are American, Russian, Moldovan, Transnistrian, or some combination? What would you tell people if they asked you? JK: It is hard to identify. Definitely I'm Russian-American, so I'm American with Russian background. I would not even identify myself as Moldavian, maybe Soviet Union because it was still time that it was Soviet Union in affect and it was a part of everything. Even though we were living in Moldova, it was more pro-Russian than Moldavian. It's a combination, it's definitely not American yet, it's definitely not Russian already, but it's some kind of Russian-American heritage. AK: Something in between. JK: Something in between, that's right. AK: How do you define your culture? Is it by music, by food, by language, by religion, by politics? JK: Mostly by background, Soviet Union background. Because it was major time that I lived there, so food and culture and education mostly affected me when I was a child during the Soviet Union time. There was no religion, I would say almost no religion at all, so I would say it's mostly by the place that I was living, the Soviet Union. AK: You are from Moldova, but also from Transnistria, Pridnestrovie, so how would you say that affected your life growing up and your culture? What was the difference? JK: That's very interesting also because when Transnistria become as a new republic in 1992, we truly believed that it happened for a reason and it's a good reason for all people that living there. Again, it was tool of propaganda. We were told that we had the right to create our own republic, our own country, and I believed in this 100%. I was a strong believer in this, and I didn't understand Moldavian government, why they acted so aggressively by entering with weapons and bombing people, innocent people. I was against this, and I was a truly pro-Transnistrian citizen. But when we immigrated here, and I start looking at-- first of all I started living here differently. I started learning American language, American culture. I saw tolerance to other people, I saw big part of America by going toward the rules and traditions. All of a sudden it hit me that stuff that happened in Transnistria is not right. Its only, in my opinion, it was only done because someone on the government level decided to do this. They basically brainwashed people and guide them toward this craziness. And people who live there they still suffer from this decision, most of them not realizing that it was a bad decision. But they are separatists and they now living very separate lives from entire world because nobody announced them as a country. They still kind of isolated from entire world, it's just crazy. It's not right and its one of the, unfortunately, Russian, I think in my opinion, it's one of the Russian government decisions. AK: Why do you think people wanted to separate from Moldova? Was the culture different, what was it? JK: No, it was an idea that someone gave us in this time, and it's the same kind of idea happening in Crimea and Abkhazia. In Soviet Union time what happened, students after graduating from the colleges, they were sent to different republics, normally in most poorest economically republics basically to build up economy of these republics. Russia, central of Russia, was always active. But Moldova, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, traditionally were not very educated countries because like Moldova is a very agricultural country, so people were normally farmers. All students after college were sent to these republics. My mom, for example, is very bright example of this situation. She grew up in Russia, she is a Russian citizen, and she spoke only Russian language after graduating from her chemical university. She was sent to Moldova, first to Azerbaijan but she ended up in Moldova working as a chemical engineer in one of the plants that the Soviet Union time on purpose built in this republic. Then all republics were exchanging materials. For example, Moldova nothing to do with chemistry in Moldova, but it was convenient big places and locations and they have to employ people so they were building these huge plants to create labor and everything. So my mom ended up in Moldova. Moldova of course, their language was Moldovan or Romanian because culturally wise they used to be part of Romania long time ago. But in Soviet Union time everything was so centralized and so coming from Russia, majority of people on the government level and big manufacturing level were speaking only Russian. My mom was very comfortably feeling there, and all her life after she moved to Moldova, it was the 70's until the 90's, she was speaking only Russian. She was very successful; whatever she achieved everything was fine. When the Soviet Union started falling apart, each republic of course started announcing their independence because Moldovan people all of a sudden feel their culture because of glasnost and democracy, they said "hey we're not Russian, we're Moldovan. We want to speak our language!" They are dominant there, so it is normal that Moldovans want to speak their language. They announced that all people who are working in certain people, they have to speak Moldavian language too, which is normal. In United States we have the same thing. If you want to work somewhere, you have to first of all speak English. You can also speak Spanish or something, but if you are achieving something and working you have to speak English. So now it sounds to be very normal, but when I was in Moldova in '92 for my mom and all of us it was very shocking because all of a sudden we had to start learning Moldavian. It just historically happened, it's not the fault of Moldavian people or anyone else. If you want to continue to live in this country, you have to learn Moldavian language. But all of a sudden, somebody feel this situation and the propaganda started spreading around these people saying "hey you're Russian, you have to speak Russian. Why are they pushing you to learn Moldavian? It's not good. You have to protest this. You work hard here, you have to be able to speak your language. You don't need Moldavian language." And of course these people, like my mom and family, they feel very comfortable with this idea because it eliminates the problem to learn another language when you're forty and after forty of course it's not easy. That's why my parents, as well as many other families, supported this idea to create this kind of republic. Yes we created it and we are all of a sudden we announced to Moldova that we're not part of Moldova anymore, we want our own state. It sounds funny right now, but for us with all this propaganda and all these thoughts that we were receiving from Russia, plus Russia give us citizenship immediately of Russia, and also the possibility to travel to Russia without any visa. People who retired were getting extra cash toward their pension. Of course it was very convenient for us, economically wise and idea wise because it eliminated the problem to learn another language. Now living here in the United States I realized that it was kind of a utopia, it was unpleasant and not really comfortable idea but I came to United States and I have no idea, I have never had the idea to pronounce here on Brighton Breach independence of United States. I understand that if I want to perform here, I have to learn language and tradition. It would never come to my mind to protest here on Brighton Beach and say "hey I'm Russian I'm proud to be Russian and only Russian." It's just funny, it's very childish. But I guess because those times somebody supported us on a government level from Russia, we felt support and financially wise we just went to this idea, which was not right apparently. AK: Would you ever like to go back to Moldova to visit? JK: Maybe, maybe but it's quite far away. I see that my friends, we have different mentality level. It's also a lot of places in the world that I never visit before. So it's not my destination in my dreams or something like that. I guess one day I will be there, I guess. But it's not my dream destination. IN fifteen years, I've never visited and I cannot say that it's on my travel list. AK: Do you feel a connection to your birthplace, or do you feel that you have a duty to go back? JK: I have no duty to come back, my mom is living with me here in the United States. My father is there but he can travel, we talk on Skype, he has his own family, thank god everything is fine. So, I would rather invite him to visit me, than to go there. Especially I have two kids so I cannot go myself, it's kind of complicated. Definitely no duty there, and I have no other connection to go there. With technology, when you can always reach your friends and family over Skype and talk to them, it's good enough for me at least. AK: Earlier you mentioned religion and how there was no religion in the Soviet Union, so how did you transition from this atheist place to America, which has so many religions and cultures? What does religion mean to you, and how do you identify? JK: I also grew up so I became a more mature person, but in the 1990's when the Soviet Union fall apart I already got the feeling that I should belong somewhere, I should belong to some kind of idea. Communism fell apart for me so it was not very desirable dream to build communism. But I understood that person has to have some kind of frame and some kind of rules, but some kind of interest in this life to behave in. I think religion in certain ways, not strict one, but something kind of fusion because I belong to Jewish roots and some Russian Christian, so it's hard for me to identify myself that I'm Jewish or I'm Christian. I feel that I cannot say that whatever Jewish people saying is against Christian, or that Christian is in conflict with Jewish principles in religion. So I'm trying to create some kind of fusion, especially here in Brooklyn it's a lot of Jewish organizations and Jewish centers that I kind of like. I like their idea, again I'm against to go deeply into religion because it's very hard to be strictly religious in this crazy society, because you have to do a lot of things. I don't think anybody needs this kind of strict, unless you have some kind of inside call that you have to be this way. But I think it's some kind of mixture of everything, whatever you feel comfortable with, whatever giving you some peace. Whatever you want to do, I think it's great. That's why I love the United States, nobody criticizes anybody. If you're Jewish and want to go to the Synagogue everybody would respect whatever you do. If you're going to Russian Orthodox Church, it's also good. I'm going sometimes to both. I cannot see anything wrong about this. I mean it's great, this is typical United States. This is why I love about United States. AK: Okay my last question, also kind of a hard one. Do you have any regrets, or do you think that if you could go back, you would do something differently in your life and in moving to the States and how you live here? JK: So far, I cannot see anything I did wrong or I would do differently. Again I guess it's coming with some kind of maturity or longer time to look back. I'm pretty happy with my life. I guess if I would immigrate early, it would give me even more opportunities. Probably my transitional period from Soviet Union mentality to American mentality would've been much quicker and faster. But I'm very happy, I cannot say that I have any inside conflicts or something. I think I have some harmony in my soul in my life. AK: Okay, thank you so much! JK: You're welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julia Kiosse Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kiosse, Julia ; Kiosse, Alexandra Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Julia Kiosse was the daughter of a Russian native and a native Moldovan. She immigrated to the United States in 1998 with her daughter, but without her husband as he could not get the proper documents in time. She lived in a small apartment in Brooklyn for one year before she moved back to Moldova to be with her husband. She moved with her family to the United States in 2000 and settled in Brooklyn. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-26 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Julia Kiosse.wav Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-05 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 59:48 Subject The topic of the resource Kiosse, Julia. --Interviews; Moldovans--United States; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Moldova -- History; Glasnost--Soviet Union; Migrations; Communism; City and town life--New York (State)--New York Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6a19fd785b1d092b0c36c68f8793d76.jpeg 8ef99edb98dd0ae1c6597004ad5d87b9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906a8ed5320d036b07a41532ace33917.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9671362edf0dd60a52389b737ab770d9.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constantine Markotsis and Russell Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Gulachok Biographical Text Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michaelis a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:23 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-12 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) 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Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Gulachok Interviewed by: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Transcriber: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 09:52 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Russell Brown: Hello, I'm Russell Brown, and I am here today with Constantine Markotsis. Today is April 6th, 2016 and the time is currently 9:52 AM and we are here at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York to interview Michael Gulachok to find out more about the history of the Ukrainian American Community of the Southern Tier. The two of us aim to explore the complexities of your past as a couple with first generation and third generation immigrant backgrounds. Michael Gulachok: I'm a 3-rd generation Ukrainian, my grandparents came over in the early 1900's. They first came into Pennsylvania and then up to this area. My grandfather wanted to be a farmer, and my grandmother wanted to stay in town. So, they opened a restaurant, which I think started around 1928, and it is still over here on Harry L Drive the Oasis Restaurant, but it has been out of the family hands for quite some time. RB: Could you please tell us a little bit about where you are from? MG: I/m from this area, I was born in Binghamton at Lourdes Hospital 65 years ago, or maybe that was 56, no (chuckles), 65 years ago, and I grew up mostly in Candor and Owego and I graduated from Owego Free Academy, SUNY Binghamton and pretty much lived in the area all my life. Constantine Markotsis: If I could just interject, where in Eastern Europe are your roots from? MG: What would now be the southeastern most part of Poland, it's a small village outside of a town called Sanok, the village name is Ulychne, there is a great website Ulucz.com and it comes in English, and that'll tell you all about the village. There you can read all about the village. The history is actually quite interesting, just a little place and it seems to have great significance, and also on top of that, many of the people in this church came from that small village. CM: And so, I guess that some of the original migrants came and told their families and neighbors to come here for work? MG: Yeah come here to the EJ factories and IBM. A lot of people would come here over Scranton because that is mostly coal mining down there. For instance, I had a great Uncle who died in a coal mining accident, I think it was 1932, so I feel it was a little bit of a better life up here. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about where your wife (Nataliya) is from? MG: My wife Nataliya is from a town which is very close to the Romanian border, and it's called Chernivtsi. It's really quiet a nice city, it has a cultural component, there is a university there (Chernivtsi University). If you look at a picture of Chernivtsi (university), it looks like the architects were on psychedelics or something. I mean it is just so many different designs. If you ever get a chance look up Chernivtsi. She (Nataliya) is from there and her family lived in a small village outside of Chernivtsi. Her mother is still alive, plus she has her son, granddaughter and brother were still there. Her brother was living in the United States for 10 years or so, but he went back. And she had another brother who passed away. RB: Could you describe your family's life in Ulychne? MG: Well you see right now the Ukrainians were pushed out of Ulychne in 1946 by the Polish government. They were mostly resettled in what is now western Poland on the border of Germany and/or Ukraine. So Ulychne now and it has been since '46 or '47 is basically Polish, there are some Ukrainians still left but mostly Polish. And it is kind of isolated, there is a foot bridge as one place you can use to get to it (Ulychne). Then there is a bridge as another way and then there is a ferry. It's on the Sand River and I have been there twice. RB: How did you like it there in Ulychne? MG: Oh, I loved it! I couldn't live there. But there was a church there that is the oldest existing wooden Carpathian style church in Poland, and it's on a hillside looking over Ulychne. It dates from about 1620. It is a museum now and they don't have services there now. But if you go on the website you will see pictures of it. Also, I have to say when the Germans came through in '42 or something, a lot of the village either by the Germans or the Polish was burned. Basically, they destroyed it. We have a map, but I don't know if it is here, but there is a map from the early '30's of Ulychne it actually shows where everyone lived. There is a legend and numbers on the houses and you can actually see where my great grandparents lived. CM: You say that the Ukrainian community was kicked out in '46, but your family left ways before that when it was still Austrian? MG: Yeah, it was a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and we had relatives there when they were kicked out. Supposedly there is a family legend where we had a relative who had a grocery store there and when the Germans came though they shot her on the spot because of her protesting. We had relatives there when the Poles relocated them. But my relatives came over around 1912. My grandfather was 16 and my grandmother was from the same village. Her last name was Mareyko, Julia Mareyko and she came over two years later. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about why your wife came over? MG: She had relatives over here, she had an uncle who was a banker over in New Haven. By banker I don't mean he had money, he just worked as a banker (chuckles). He sponsored her, and she got a green card out of the lottery system and so did her brother Wassel and they both were living in Brooklyn. That is how she came over about 18 years ago. RB: When your grandparents lived in Ulychne do you know how they felt about the quality of life there? MG: It wasn't very good. There were land barons who controlled basically everything, and they only thing they did there was wood, vegetables, meat, cattle, and things of that sort. They would have to give a lot of it away to the barons. RB: Do you know why your wife decided to move over? MG: A better life. It's rough over there. The economy for a long time has not been very good in the Ukraine. CM: Just to clarify, what year did you say your wife moved to the US? MG: I am only guessing it was 16 or 18 years ago. I met her 15 years ago this May. She had been in the country for about two or three years at that time. CM: So right around 2000 basically? MG: A little before that yeah. I think '98. CM: So, then she lived through a lot of the Soviet Era? MG: Oh yeah. For instance, I took her to see Baryshnikov at the Anderson Center, and we had great seats and we were sitting right in front. And when I was telling her "Oh we are going to go see Baryshnikov, she really didn't know who he was, and I asked myself why she did not know. He defected in the '70s in Toronto before coming to the United States and you know the Soviet Union is not going to be allotting Baryshnikov over there. So, she really didn't know her story. CM: So, you could say in America you were able to learn more about Ukrainian history perhaps more than someone who actually lived there? MG: Oh yeah. Everything was Sovietized and it's basically what the Russians wanted them to know and learn. So, they had very limited knowledge of the United States and we were always portrayed as the devil. CM: Do you think the people bought into that, or was her family consciousness of the fact that something wasn't right? MG: I wouldn't say that about her parents, but, her contemporaries and her peers probably got that after a while because you can listen to radio for a year or get a bootleg movie and then they question why the US has such nicer things over there. You know the story: A Soviet athlete would walk into a supermarket and see 30 different types of shampoo and it was just mind blowing to them. RB: Based on your own experience what do you think sets 1st generation and 3rd generation immigrants apart? MG: Well, as far as 3rd generations go I did not have to embrace my history or my past, but I did. A lot of people just let it go and become Americans, and that is what our grandparents wanted really. They never really talked about the old country that much. They wanted us to be Americans, but there are so many people I know who are 3rd generation and they have no relation to their past, although it is up to each person. CM: I guess I may be able to relate as a 3rd generation and I don't know if this relates to your experience, but My dad's father was born in Greece and he would always say "Don't play soccer, play baseball because that is what the Americans play!" And then as my generation rolled along we want to know more about where we came from. I don't know if that kind of sounds kind of similar to you. MG: Yeah although I never really let it go. I was always into it, but I don't speak Ukrainian fluently, I know words and phrases. It is like that for so many people now, people are trying to find out more about their roots with places like Ancestry.com. For instance, the church of Latter-Day Saints has a big collection of genealogical resources. For instance, if I had gone to them before going out on my own trying to find family history I would have saved a lot of money. CM: I guess going off that, you said you speak some basic Ukrainian. I know we have Greek school, in this church is there a Ukrainian school? MG: There used to be in the 50's and 60's. There hasn't been one for quite a long time. CM: Do the kids speak Ukrainian? MG: Sometimes, it depends on their parents and whether or not they speak it at home. There are a lot of people in this church who don't speak it and some that do. I wish we could recruit new generation Ukrainians here. For instance, there is a Pentecostal Ukrainian church over in Conklin in Berkshire. They actually have been getting VISA's because they say they don't have religious freedom in the Ukraine and that has been their entry point into the United States. CM: This community is based on an older generation of immigrants than some of the other southern tier communities? MG: Yeah, the wave of immigration from this church and this area basically in the early 1900's or the first 40 years of the 1900's. RB: Now do you know why most people decided to live here in the southern tier of New York? MG: Well wherever they have relatives or sponsors. I know that whenever the 1st generation peoples came here they looked at the hills and the weather here and they were just like "god this is just like home." (Laughter) It isn't very different here and there. I went to Sanok and it felt just like Berkshire, NY. The houses and the utilities are a little different obviously, but it basically looks the same. It depends where you have family, there are other Ukrainian churches in Florida and southern California. RB: Just a little bit more about yourself, do you currently work? MG: No, I am retired, I have a seasonal NY state job with the gaming commission. And I work 61 days a year at (Job). RB: Could you tell us what your wife does? MG: My wife is a sales associate at the men's clothing department in Macy's. She has been there for 14 years. RB: What lessons has your work life taught you and your wife? MG: To be honest, to be hardworking, I always intended to get their 15 minutes early. I liked getting to work and having time to prepare and not just jump right into things like wham! I like getting there like 20 minutes early, having a cup of coffee, and then when it's 8 or 8:30 get into it. I have seen so many situations where people got in at 8:30 and start working at 10 after 9 (laughter). So, for my wife she is conscientious and very hard-working. She is probably the most hard-working person I have ever met. This woman works even when she is on the telephone she will be cleaning the house. She'll be doing yard work after the sun goes down and I'll tell her to come on in you know it's dark out there (laughter), you've done enough today. They are just really really driven. RB: Do you believe that is because of the culture she was brought up in the Ukraine? MG: Yeah, you know kind of strict and hard-working. I know her father worked in a factory and he never missed a day, they are all pretty hard-working. RB: Do you know what family was like for her and for yourself? MG: As I said I have been to her village and her city a couple of times. It is a beautiful city, she is in a village just outside the city along the Prut River. Prut means swift in Ukrainian. I have seen her schools and where she went to school, the schools are fairly nice. It's kind of idyllic area, I swear to god it's like a fast-moving river, I mean you can still go into it and swim in it. There are also evergreen hillsides rising up and it is like you are in Deposit, NY. She had a fairly good life there. And I had a good life here. My parents bought land along the Susquehanna River. So, you know I didn't have a Huck Finn life (chuckles) but I had boats all my life. I still have land on the river and a house, but we were flooded twice and now we live in Endwell on a hill (laughter). CM: You said the schools were pretty good where your wife came from. If I remember correctly, while the Soviet Union had a lot of hardships, it always had a good education program. MG: Yeah, she went to a university. She went to Kiev University, she got a business degree. You know it is kind of difficult for people from other countries. They come over here and they are highly educated, and it is difficult translating that education experience into the mainstream of this country. I've known doctors, chemists that have come over here and are driving taxi cabs. They never achieve success they would have achieved if they were born here. Because their language is not that precise, and I know I couldn't do what my wife did. My wife came here and had to learn a new alphabet, a new language, new customs, how to do things like an American, so it's very difficult. CM: So, your wife didn't speak any English when she came over? MG: No, she went to class for English as a second language. CM: ESL? MG: Yeah. I also help her everyday with her language and she doesn't teach me any Ukrainian (laughter). RB: That's a good segway into the next question. Do you know how well she assimilated to the United States? MG: She is very assimilated, although she hurts easily. Working in merchandising you meet all kinds of people, nice people, people of different backgrounds. And she talks to customers who can't understand her, and she feels offended or hurt. But she has acclimated pretty well. RB: Could you tell us about your grandparents when they came here? MG: My grandfather's name was Mike Gulachok, although it was probably Mykhailo, but it got changed in Ellis Island. I don't know if it is in there (referring to the binder on his family) but there is a boat manifest and a lot of information in there depending on what they put in. I think that DeDe (grandfather in Ukrainian) I think he started in a coal mine down in Scranton and then moved here for a shoe factory and then he opened up the restaurant. They learned English pretty well, they learned to read, write and speak English well. They had a good life and they loved their family. They had 4 children and they are buried up here. RB: What were some things your grandparents taught your parents and your parents taught you in terms of values? MG: (laughter as he is pointing to the picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis Restaurant) CM: Just for the interview we are looking at a picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis restaurant. That was the family business. MG: This is Baba's (grandma in Ukrainian) birthday party, and I think this is around 1956 and this is me (points to himself as a kid) and this is my mother, and all these are family and friends. That was in the Binghamton Press. You know the cover of SGT. Peppers (Beatles album)? CM: Yes. RB: Yes. MG: Well this is the family SGT. Peppers (laughter). CM: You have a very large extended family for sure. MG: Now do you want to ask me on how I met my wife? RB: Absolutely! MG: Oh, because this is a crazy story. May 15 years ago, I was spending a long weekend in NYC, and I'm staying in a hotel up in the theatre district. I decided to go down to the East Village to see what's happening down there, so I took a bus down Second Avenue and I got off at 7th street. The street was closed off because there was a Ukrainian festival and that is where I met here. RB: Oh wow. MG: I gave her my phone and address and she wrote to me and I wrote back and yeah that's how we met. RB: That is amazing. MG: Doesn't that make you believe in fate? I mean if I wasn't in NYC or decided to take the bus I would have never met her. CM: Yeah, a lot had to happen for that, for sure. I wrote down here that you mentioned in your family history that your family worked in the coal mines and moved to the shoe factories. From what Stephan and the Father told us it seems like your story and the Parish story are very similar. MG: Oh yeah, very similar. You know some people became engineers, some became doctors, some were bartenders, some were restaurant owners, some farmers. Not everyone is a doctor or lawyer, some people have to cook the bread or stir the paint. CM: It seems though that now when you compare it to the 1920's that the Parish seems to be a lot better off now the quality of life seems much better. MG: Yeah around the 60's and 70's this area was quite booming. I mean it's been in decline but there were a lot of opportunities here. One-time IBM had employed 16,000 people, but now they employ like 2,000. There were a lot of opportunities here, the value of opportunity. RB: what was your daily life like when you first met Natalia? She is a first-generation immigrant, so she still has to get used to the country and everything-- MG: Well that was interesting, she was living in Brooklyn and I was living in the country outside of Owego on the river. I proposed, and we got married in New York City at the marriage bureau in Manhattan, had many of her friends from Brooklyn for the reception and got a U-Haul [for her belongings]. Then I brought her up here. She grew up in the country-- RB: [the Southern Tier was] as close to home as possible MG: She went from living in NYC to living in the sticks up here. She liked it here, she learned how to drive a car, etc. and I've unsuccessfully tried to talk her into moving back to Brooklyn. CM: I imagine in Brooklyn that she lived in an ethnic Ukrainian community? MG: Actually not, she lived in Sunset Park, which was mainly an orthodox Jewish neighborhood. It really had all kinds of people there. There was this one commercial center close to where she lived, and I remember that there was a Chechen night club near it, and we'd walk by and the owners would say "come on in! Come on in!" But we'd say no thanks. There were really all kinds of people there. CM: I imagine that she had to assimilate pretty quickly, and assume that she spoke some English by the time you guys met? MG: Oh yeah, she had been taking some ESL courses, and while I writing to her, she would share [our correspondence] with her uncle, who told her “This is what you need, you need exposure to the language". While she lived in Brooklyn, all of her friends were Ukrainian, which led to her being pretty insular, and she didn't speak to many people in English other than when she went to a store for instance. When she came up here, she really got immersed. RB: I imagine it'd be easier to do so up here (the southern tier), than in the hectic city. MG: If you don't, talk to anyone in a language, you won't learn it. CM: I agree, my experience has been such that I think you could take 80,000 of those (ESL) classes, but the real way to learn a language is just by being forced to speak it. MG: Yeah, you can even learn English by just watching TV, especially situational comedies. Sometimes I hear things coming out of her mouth, and I think gee whiz, are we on law and order? CM: Going off of that, have you noticed differences in Ukrainian and American mannerisms? Inter personal quirks perhaps? Such as how far away you should stand from the person you're talking to? MG: Yeah, I've noticed that she is superstitious. If you look at pictures from the old country, you'll notice that no one is smiling. RB: I have noticed that. MG: Another example of this is when I go to buy clothes at the Salvation Army, she'll say that we shouldn't buy it since it was certainly owned by dead people, which we all know is not necessarily true or important if it was. She is also afraid of the cellar, I haven't the slightest idea why, and whenever she goes down there to wash something, I always have to check in on her and ask if she is ok. They (Ukrainians) certainly have their ways of acting, behaving and thinking, which we might not be familiar with. RB: One of my Ukrainian friends told me that in his home he isn't permitted to whistle or to leave his keys on the table, is that a superstition that sounds familiar to you? MG: I've never heard that one! [Laughs] CM: If I recall, our friend also mentioned that his family told him not to smile too much, since that would lead to wrinkles in old age, does that sound familiar to you? MG: I haven't heard of that one either. However, I have noticed that Ukrainian culture tends to be less relaxes, far more formal. If you go to someone's house you are expected to kiss all of the women's hands, bring flowers, food, wine, or something. Which I feel is nice. CM: In general, that seems more formal than American culture, how do you feel that large holidays compare for instance? MG: All gatherings certainly had a larger religious aspect to them, as opposed to pagan. Our Christmas and Easter are almost exclusively based on Christianity. As you know, our Christmas and Easter are celebrated at different times than other Christian denominations. CM: Just to clarify for the recording, your church follows the old calendar correct? MG: Correct, we follow the Julian calendar. CM: And Easter coincides with Passover [in Eastern Orthodoxy] MG: Yes, and this year our Easter will fall on May 1st. CM: And do the other local Ukrainian churches in the area follow the same religious calendar? Such as Sacred Heart (A catholic parish) or the Pentecostal church? MG: No, Sacred Heart's calendar is in line with the rest of the catholic calendar, and I'm not really not sure what the Pentecostals do. RB: What made your grandparents chose this church over the others? MG: Well my grandparents were founding members of the church and were very involved in it: one of grandparents even became church board president. It was a very important parcel of their history, their culture. CM: Of course, as in many ethnic Eastern Orthodox denominations, I noticed while I was upstairs that this church has a Ukrainian flag next to the altar, and I feel that we can safely say that this doesn't function merely a place of worship, as opposed to the Catholic Church for instance. It is a national church that embodies the ethnic history and cultural values of the community here. MG: It is, and no matter what variant of orthodoxy one practices, be it Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian, or otherwise, is still the same orthodox faith. I personally feel that it shouldn't be hung on an ethnicity or an ethnic background, because religion is universal. The semi separation arose from linguistic barriers and we should always aim to appeal to and include members of all other nations who wish to pray. I do remember that very recently we had a Binghamton University student who had come from Ethiopia, and he prayed with our community while he was here. I like the idea that you can come here regardless of what your heritage is. CM: I absolutely agree with you. I do feel that this view is more widespread now in 2016 than it would have been historically. MG: I would also imagine that earlier generations wouldn't have felt that way. I feel that people have become more thoughtful, open, and progressive than they were in say the 1930s. CM: It seems that if you had an Ethiopian who felt comfortable here that we could characterize the parish itself as progressive and open one. MG: Yes, we were happy to have him here. RB: Just going back to your relatives, what sort of things did your parents teach you to regard as important? Such as the values they imbued in you? MG: Honesty. Honesty, and hard work. I can't say love of family; don't get me wrong we loved each other, but we didn't really reach out to far. I started to get more involved in the church as of the 1990s and am happy to have seen society as a whole become kinder, and more well informed. RB: Going off of that, as a 3rd generation Ukrainian American and a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, what do you feel best defines being "Ukrainian American", [as a Ukrainian immigrant would see it] and with regards to how you yourself would define it? MG: Pride and love of heritage. My family came from an area of the world that had been persecuted, repressed, and that made heritage all the more important to hold onto-- I consider myself an American first and a Ukrainian American second. I value passing down our culture to the next generation, especially given the hard times that we [Ukrainians] have faced. Ukraine has been in the geopolitical crosshairs for centuries. Ukraine itself means "borderland" in Russian, which is evidence of its struggle through the millennia. That being said, I saw an online map of the changing borders of Europe over time, and we certainly aren't the only people to face such issues. Going forward I want to see the Ukraine succeed, and to be able to provide a better and more prosperous life for the Ukrainian people. You didn't happen to see the frontline documentary about Putin did you? CM: No, but the two of us have managed to keep current as to the basics of the current situation in the Ukrainian [i.e.: Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014], and the country certainly has had a rough few years recently--. CM: We could also ask you this: The Ukraine itself isn't a monolith: Many Ukrainians belong to different religious sects, such as the Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, Judaism, the Pentecostal church, etc. Some Ukrainians speak Ukrainian at home, other Russian, others Slovak, etc. I suppose we could say that there are many potential elements that can come together as part of a Ukrainian identity. MG: All of those elements can vary, at the end of the day it is identifying with your heritage. If you were to google my name (Michael Gulachok) online, you'd find that there aren't any aside from me. I am proud of my name, and moreover my heritage. It feels like I'm one of the last Mohicans in a way, because I am probably the last one. CM: I suppose Gulachok is a rare family name then? MG: Yes. An interesting fact is that the word "Gula" in my last name had its origins in the Catholic Church and related to debauchery [laughter]. CM: My own last name translates to smuggler, so you never know [laughter]. MG: For all we know I had a drunken dancer as the family founder [laughter] RB: Given that you are a 3rd generation Ukrainian, and your wife is 1st generation, what sort of values are emphasized in your household? What do you find most important in the household? MG: Well, when my brother visited us recently he said "You know, this smells like Baba's (Grandma's) house." Meaning the food that we cook, the icons that we have, and our artwork aren't very different from what my parents and grandparents would have had. When you step inside you instantly get the impression that you're in a Ukrainian enclave. I had a beautiful watercolor painting of the church that was ruined in the flood in Owego, and I still have it in the abandoned house. Now it seems sort of impressionistic. CM: I guess it morphed into a Kandinsky [laughter] M; Yeah either that or a Polack. RB: How does your religion shape your Ukrainian identity? MG: It is very much a part of who I am, when I had once physically left the church, I hadn't spiritually done so. The sermons here, and the liturgy are nowadays roughly one-half Ukrainian, and one-half English. It is a very integral part of who I am and who we are. CM: In my own experience, it seems like an uncle of mine who wasn't too religious, but the church was always a part of the Greek identity. I feel as though the same applies in this community, and I feel in every sect of Eastern Orthodoxy, that the church life is integral in shaping the ethnic identity. MG: Yes, I would agree. RB: Would you say that you are more American, or more Ukrainian? MG: I am more of an American, while my wife is more of a Ukrainian. CM: Your wife of course lived there, and you mentioned that you've revisited Eastern Europe a few times. MG: yes, I have been to Poland three times, Ukraine twice, Slovakia once, Russia once. CM: Over the course of your visits, did you notice any change over time. MG: Yes, especially in Poland, which is doing very well. Ukrainians look over the border at Poland and think "wow, the Poles are doing so well, if only we could do that". That and Ukraine is still struggling under the thumb of Russia, the people just want a better life for themselves and their children. Poland is truly doing very well. The first time I flew into Warsaw, which is actually pronounced "Var-SHAH-va", the airport was very substandard, it was a dreary and dilapidated cinderblock building, and then just a few years later in the early 90s, the airport and the city itself had rapidly transformed. CM: Just to clarify, when did you make your first visit? MG: I first visited Russia and the Ukraine in 1992. CM: So, the USSR had just fell. MG: Correct, and the people were very excited for the future, Ukraine was free. CM: So the general feeling wasn't a more apprehensive "what do we do now?" It was more of a "finally! We can't wait, Thank God! This is the best thing that could've happened! MG: I never like to travel in a tourist bubble, when I went to Russia and the Ukraine for the first time I traveled with a peace group, so it wasn't a sightseeing itinerary-based trip, we were able to really immerse ourselves and met a lot of people. We travelled extensively, by train, taxi, boat, plane, horse. People were excited, they didn't know what would come next but they were excited and hopeful. RB: I recall you saying you and your wife travelled together to your wife's village. Did she ever say how it has changed if it has at all? MG: There is definitely more building going on, newer/ more modern homes have popped up. Keep in mind these are single family houses, I'm not talking about multi story towers. The town looks like the old country aside from some new housing. The school especially looks very modern. CM: You said that during the interlude between your visits, the area had changed quite a lot. Perhaps you could touch on the change in culture, and access to the outside world? MG: They want to become more like the west, and it is not as closed as it used to be in Soviet days. The people now know about what is going on in the world. RB: Do you feel that the Ukraine is becoming more Americanized. MG: I would say maybe more Europeanized. After all Europe is right next door. RB: Going back to the home, what sort of traditions do you retain from the old country in the home? What sort of things, such as Ukrainian Orthodox history matter a lot in your home? MG: Well it goes back to the holidays; Stephan could probably articulate this better than I. But we try and keep our holidays in line with our Ukrainian Orthodox traditions, and our house. RB: If I recall you speak some Ukrainian? MG: yes "У вас є сестра?" (Do you have a sister?) [Laughter] "принести мені пиво" (Bring me a beer) [laughter] C; All of the practical terms I suppose MG: Of course, "Вибачте, де туалет?" (Excuse me, where is the toilet?) CM: Yeah that'd definitely be good to know [laughter] RB: Do you and your wife speak Ukrainian at home? MG: Well she does when she swears at me [laughter] she swears in Ukrainian. We have Skype, and she'll speak Ukrainian on Skype with her friends from Brooklyn and New Jersey who don't speak much English. She does have Skype connections with some people back in the Ukraine, but unfortunately none of her relatives live close to someone with access to Skype. So she isn't able to look at and speak with them. But it is definitely nice that she can keep in touch with some people in New York and the Ukraine with it. CM: Would that be because her friends are from a developed urban center like Kiev, or Odessa, etc. MG: Yes, those people are certainly more prosperous, and have greater access to the globe. CM: So it seems that there is a much greater disparity between urban and rural Ukraine than urban and rural America. MG: Oh yeah, the cities have become very cosmopolitan and cultured, there is also certainly more economic activity going on in the cities. It is amazing to see horses and wagons. CM: So you still see that to this day? MG: Oh yeah, there are a lot of cars, but yes. The first time I went to Poland I was amazed by the sheer number of farmers using horses and wagons. After ten years had passed there were substantially fewer. RB: Even within ten years a country can certainly change a lot, and I believe we have just about exhausted our time. CM: Yes, right now though if there is anything you would like to add, or something you feel we didn't cover please add it in. MG: As is I'll probably think of it as I walk out the door. [Laughter] RB: Thank you very much for sharing the stories of you and your wife. CM: Thank you very much, we enjoyed it a lot. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gulachok Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource <p>Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.)</p> Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gulachok, Michael ; Markotsis, Constantine ; Brown, Russell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michael is a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-12 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Michael Gulachok.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright