152 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bf053a933a7ad48848805363478acdd8.jpeg fab299fe840525267b04a61d9de6f0c9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/41df9253c6a1a05d908b985f06b51e41.mp3 f4fbe6c8a29bde7c537362164b012350 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-01-30 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Rogat Loeb, 1952- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Paul Loeb, a native of Berkeley, California, is an author, journalist, and political activist. Loeb has published five books and has done interviews for TV and radio including CNN, NBC, and PBS. He has written for many well-known journals and newspapers including The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Economist and many more. Loeb graduated from Stanford University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5003,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Paul Loeb, a native of Berkeley, California, is an author, journalist, and political activist. Loeb has published five books and has done interviews for TV and radio including CNN, NBC, and PBS. He has written for many well-known journals and newspapers including the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, the <em>Los Angeles Times</em>, <em>The Economist</em> and many more. Loeb graduated from Stanford University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 64:52 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Silent generation; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Children of Silent Generation; Newt Gingrich; Senator Edmund Muskie; Ken Burns; Civil War; Confederates; Trust.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">Silent generation; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Children of Silent Generation; Newt Gingrich; Senator Edmund Muskie; Ken Burns; Civil War; Confederates; Trust.</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Journalists; Political activists--United States; Loeb, Paul Rogat, 1952--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Loeb Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 30 January 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:05 SM: Testing. One, two. Thanks again for doing the interview. This is again, the title of my book is called Magic Moments. And it is basically a takeoff of oral history interviews that I have been doing since I was working at West Chester University and then I retired to actually finish the book. The first question I want to ask is one of the writers that really inspired a lot of the boomers was Bertrand Russell, I-I have interviewed so many people and when I asked him Who were some of the influences on the boomers. Russell was one of them. And several people have quoted the very beginning of his book is kind of defining what the boomers are all about. And I like your thoughts on this at the very beginning of his autobiography, it says the three simples when asked what-what is the boomer generation All About and then respond three passions, simple, but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life, the longing for love, search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. What are your thoughts on Bertrand's thoughts there in his autobiography and how they might also be defined with a boomer generation? 1:25 PL: Well, you know, hard-hard question. I mean, I would say that, I mean, I was somebody who admired him, but I honestly actually had not read his work. So, so I am not one of the people who-who is sort of, you know, you know, who he was a pivotal figure for who but, I mean, I think it is probably two parts. You know, one of the things I think is really, really important to, to underscore is that there is no such thing as a monolithic generation. And so, if I looked at the people who were active, including myself, you know, during the Vietnam era, during the civil rights right stuff. You are all the, you know, social justice fight. And I look at the people like, you know, George Bush who are cruising through, you know, as drunken frat boys or-or, you know, or I mean, not just from the privileges, you know, but-but there were a lot of people who were not part of those movements. I think it is important to understand that the experience was fundamentally different. Um, there is a really good book, and-and have you seen it called Beyond the Barricades [The Sixties Generation Grows Up] by Richard Flacks and Jack Whalen? Do you know that? 2:29 SM: I think I have not. 2:30 PL: Okay, yeah. Because they were taking for granted, they did this, I do not know, 15 years ago, maybe they were looking at people in Santa Barbara, who were sort of very active during the period when the Bank of America got burned, although not always participating in it. And people were sort of hostile to those movements, you know, over-over and above the issue of the bank, when they really saw as people kind of following out those paths, you know, to this day, and, you know, so I got really angry when the media was sort of saying these tea baggers are probably the same people who were the radicals of the (19)60s that was like excuse me, where was your evidence? Have you interviewed any of them? No, you know, you know, there is, it is just like this assumption, I think, I think it is important to understand that, you know, those who have gotten involved to a certain, how to describe it to a certain degree. And there is a sort of threshold level. So, you know, if you were really involved and went down to Mississippi, or if you were organizing a whole lot at a college, you know, just doing all these things, the likelihood was that you stayed involved in citizen movement, and progressive movement. You know, if you were at the fringes, you know, I mean, it was not the same thing to me at the edge of a, you know, of a rock concert that, you know, was perfectly fine, but it was not. It is not a political engagement. And I think that there was a lot of conflation so there was conflation on two levels. There was a kind of false conflation of people who-who were kind of coming have shared some of the sentiments but were not involved with people who were involved. And then there was people conflation people who did not share any of the sentiments at all with people who were involved, and so you say, well look, you know, look, there was people on there, they were, you know, supporting regressive candidates or, you know, or whatever. But they never were, they never were engaged in a sort of progressive way to begin with. So, so I think that that that caveat, really important to make clear, and just any-any-any study of the generation. Now, if you were looking at those who were not getting involved, you know, and again, there was sort of two classes, there was two groups of three. You know, there was the people who were actively working for social justice or against the war. And then there was the people who are kind of at the periphery, we sympathize. Now, obviously, the effectiveness says of the movements of that time, it depended on being able to draw in those sympathizers so that their, their attitudes were not irrelevant by any means. But it to now, I think you just have to draw a very careful line where you end up, you know, basically creating a narrative. Somebody said, well, you know, they were a hippie then and look at them now and where did they go? Right. And, you know, so I think that is the point in terms of Russell's statement, you know, circling back to your question. I mean, I think, I think that there was an upwelling of compassion, and, you know, you know, whatever that character’s phrase, you would just use, you know, for something. I mean, I think there really was, and there was a sort of sense that does, you know, why are we-we are listening to us, you know, why are we not living up to our values, we should be living up to our values, and our values include treating people with justice. So, when I say I think that that, you know, that really, really was a current, you know, the need for love. I mean, I do not know, you know, do we need it more than other folks, you get more? Unless you are on that one. I like it, you know, it is like, I like to be loved, but, but you know, you know, my dad who is 81 got it. You know, it means a lot to him to. I am not sure that that is something that is generationally based to be honest. Right. You know, I would hesitate on that one. Um, but I think it was kind of upwelling of compassion. And I cannot remember the third aspect well. 6:14 SM: Well knowledge, the search for knowledge. 6:16 PL: Well, the search for knowledge, but I think that there was a sense that the, the verities of the times, which were sort of forged in the post, in the Cold War, post-World War. Two consensus that they were worth questioning, at least among a lot of people. Now, one of the, I did not tend to think, is that the completely legitimate critique, say from the left, and it has some point, dovetailing with some of the critiques from the right, and sort of helped to dismantle some of that social welfare state. That was a kind of unfortunate consequence. Right? You know, when I say search for knowledge, you know, the knowledge of basically saying, well, let us question everything. So-so I think there was that certainly people were trying to think things through anew. And that was good in many ways. But sometimes it made people a little contemptuous for what had been achieved. And that was- 7:10 SM: One of the things that when you look at the boomer generation is oftentimes the influence they had on their children, which is the generation Xers and actually now, when you go to the colleges, only about 15 percent of the men, millennials are sons or daughters of boomers. So, it is mostly generation X kids is so- 7:31 PL: So here is the thing he really because I did that book on-on students. Right, that really strapped I mean, problem, I think when you are trying to define that, is if you look at the generation X folks, a lot of their parents were from the what everyone calls that previous generation, the silent generation, you know, you know, Korean generation, and now it is kind of to charge but you know, the generation of sort of, you know, Korean age, and you know, came of age in the (19)50s. So, a lot of their parents were from that and again, you have distinguish between early and late boomer, I mean, boomers if you were coming up in (19)62, or three versus (19)68, or (19)69, totally different world, right, you know, and I mean, if you look at them in the figures in, think of this is in Seoul citizen, I could look, probably, I will look it up, because I know I know it is in there and therefore, I can just find it and give it to you, that, hold on a sec. What I am trying to find is the, of Wisconsin. That should do it. Okay, so basically, here is your- here is the figures laid is 19 sentences from Seoul citizen directly. The latest 1966 National antiwar demonstration drew more than 25,000 people. More than 70 percent of students at University of Wisconsin, a future radical hotbed bill approved of America's involvement in Vietnam. In the spring of 1968 not one 39 major newspapers in the Boston Globe survey, favored pulling out our troops? So, you know, when I look at that, what does that say that it is you are coming of age in (19)63 you are coming of age in a period where everyone is supporting the war, now coming age, and not that many are involved in (19)69 very different. So, I think that if you look at the children, the children of the, you know, of that previous generation, or have that sort of first, the non-engaged flights of the boomer generation, tended to be quite conservative. And in fact, that generation that cohort is, you know, is a very conservative cohort. Um, you know, in terms of their voting, you know, when they were they vote Republican. And but I think it is inaccurate to say, oh, these are the children of the (19)60s activists. And then, you know, and again, the millennials kind of split, you know, and obviously, every year, right, smaller, I mean, like, my stepson, graduated from college this year, I was at the tail end of the Vietnam generation. So, he is still the end, you know, Children of the Vietnam cohort, right? But, you know, he is kind of, it is kind of near the end of it. Um, so I think I think that um, again, it gets complicated because all depends on where you draw the dividing line. 10:15 SM: Yeah, I know that there was, there was another book that you are probably well aware of it was written by Wanda Urbanska, which was called Singular Generation. Yep. And she, she is written in 1986. She was a graduate of Harvard. And she mentioned that as other generations had been marked permanently by war, and it is aftereffects. Our generation, which is Generation X has been marked by divorce, which over half of our parents who were the boomers have been divorced in our reaction to the instability through the social protest movements, and a lot more of a stability in their lives? Not- 10:53 PL: Yeah, I do not know. I mean, I think I did. I did not remember the name, but I mean, certainly remember reading that theory. I mean, I am mixed about it, because um, I mean, certainly it is true that they are, you know, that divorce rates went up, but then you know, you know, I mean, my, well, this piggyback generation, but like, my grandparents on my mom's side, my mom's parents were in a 60 plus your marriage. That was a horrible marriage. You know, it worked out. I mean, it was, it should never have been married together. It was awful. And, you know, so I think, yeah, there is a tradeoff of divorce, but there was also the tradeoff of those people sticking it out in truly horrible marriages. You know, like my grandparents. And, I mean, from the outside, it may have looked good, but from the inside, it was abysmal. And they were torture, they were torturing each other every day. I mean, I you know, I watched it every time I did, I went over, right. And I love both of them, but still. So, you know, I think that it is a little tricky to say that they were you know, marked by- I mean, it did shift some things and certainly the entrance of women into the workforce shifts a whole lot. Probably I would say even more, you know, it because suddenly you had, you know women work. But you know, and then there, you know, and then it is complicated because it is the gen X folks, and these are the people that I actually wrote a generation of crossroads on. Mm hmm. Are they reacting against the, say the (19)60s protests directly? No, because they were too young. Right? They were, they were responding to the media's caricatures of those, which is what they have inherited. Because they were, again, they were too young to respond directly, because they did not, you know, they were not born yet. Or they were really tight and really young. So, so I think it is, yeah, so I think I would kind of take issue on that. I mean, I, you know, I think probably they more and more shaped by, you know, by the lull in direct participation, and by the sort of media caricatures of protests, and they were with any direct experience positive or negative. 12:59 SM: Paul, when you um, I want to ask you a question is how did you become who you are, um, when you first, you know, when we brought you to West Chester University back in the early (19)90s. And I remember you visiting the campus and I remember when you left, the students were saying he is so different, and he has got such passion. I wish I had it, because you are a deep thinker, but what made you who you are to be to think so deeply about these issues, not only about your generation, but the generations that followed? How did this happen? Well, who are the role models that inspired you? 13:38 PL: Well, I mean, I, I often say they were sort of a couple of people directly on there was a rabbi. He was in Seoul of a Citizen, Leonard Biermann, he was just very outspoken, and, you know, I was growing up and he was just, I could tell he was thinking off the rip. So, you know, that, um, that that made me more receptive. And there was a very outspoken young history teacher who was taking a lot of risks. And I think those were probably the two biggest models. You know, where I just saw people speaking out. And-and somehow, I just felt like I had a responsibility to do something about things that were wrong about that from the beginning. 14:19 SM: Did you ever in your life ever pay a price for this? 14:23 PL: Well, personally, I mean, I suppose so. You know, it sort of depends on your definition of pain of paying a price. I actually write about this in the new edition of soul citizen a little bit- 14:33 SM: When is that coming out by the way? 14:34 PL: April, March 30th. 14:36 SM: Yeah, because I got that. I got some of your books right with me here, including that generation at the crossroads. First editions of that. 14:42 PL: Yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, I was very active at Stanford. And we were active around military recruiting particularly corporations tied to military, right and, um, so a bunch of my friend Pete Knutsen and myself and several other people went into a recruiting room where a few pictures of Honeywell was doing cluster bombs and we swiped pictures of their victims, and we refused to leave. And we ended up getting indefinitely suspended. So, you know, in that sense, I suppose I paid a cost in that I, you know, I did not graduate from Stanford. But I actually, you know, as I write, you know, reflecting on it, did it destroy my life did it you know, make, I mean, it was a little hard to make the transition, but I, you know, actually sound like a lot of new I moved to New York, a lot of new possibilities opened up so I, you know, the one of the lessons is, you may do something that looked like, you are paying a cost, but in fact, you are not really paying. I mean, you know, you are in some low abstract level, but it does not really make your life worse. So-so I suppose you could say that that was closest I have come to, you know, paying a cost beyond just, you know, you know what, everyone goes all insensitive. You know, you are going to get your heart broken periodically, you know, and that I suppose that the cost too. 15:59 SM: I know it is. 16:01 PL: You are going to feel like overloaded. You know, you know, too many things. But-but not in the sense of, you know, I am not I have not been tortur- I mean, I have been, you know, I have been in civil disobedience a few times, but I knew I was going to get arrested. So, I was not, you know, that was not an honor. It did not feel like a real cost. 16:18 SM: Yeah. So how do you respond when you I say to specific instances in 1994 when Newt Gingrich came into power, and this is not an attack against republicans or anything, but when he came into power, I read some of his speeches. And he made a lot of commentary about the (19)60s and about the Vietnam generation. And a lot of the bad things that were happening in America at the time he came into power is due directly to that era. Back there, back in the (19)60s, and I know George will oftentimes when he writes, we will, we will take a shot at the right generation and there is several others that put the blame of everything in our society on that era. 17:01 PL: Well, it is garbage. I mean, basically people who read, you know, goof supported nothing but a regressive social order that hand power over to the wealthiest. And when people just shut up and be silent about it, and said they were scapegoating, those times when people actually challenged it, and they do that, of course, by trying to caricature the excesses, because every movement going to have it? You know, flaky moment? And, you know, but I mean, it is, I would argue that it is, it- Well, I mean, maybe it is their belief, but I call it bad faith. You know, certainly bad history. Not that day. 17:38 SM: I know, you cannot generalize a whole generation, because we are talking anywhere between 70 to 78 million people that were boomers, I have got books that say we had 74. But can you- kind of I know there was the-the early boomers, as you mentioned, who were really involved and then you get the later boomers who did not have the experiences as like the early boomers, but can you, can you give some qualities, some strengths and weaknesses of the generation? 18:08 PL: Well, again, I do not like lumping it together. 18:10 SM: Okay. Very good. 18:11 PL: You know, I am very hesitant. Because, I mean, I can talk about the strengths of the people involved in the movement, but- 18:18 SM: That, I think that is what I am going to get at, because- 18:20 PL: Okay, what that I can do, but I just, I just want to make clear, I mean, Gingrich is part of the generation. 18:25 SM: Yes. 18:27 PL: Karl Rove was part of the generation I think he is, yeah. You know, so these people who is, you know, I mean, I feel nothing in common with these people. Is not that I am a carbon, we are both carbon-based life forms, you know, and even their- you know, I feel a hell a lot more common with my friends dogs than I do with a Gingrich or Karl Rove you know, so we are going to random-random dog I meet in the street. So, you know, in terms of the movement itself, Frank, I think, you know, there was a really powerful moral witness and people did have this sense of, you know, I am going to try and actually act on something again, even if there are not, as you mentioned, even if there are some costs. I think that that is very powerful. Now, you know, sometimes it got kind of megaloman- megalomaniacal, I mean, you know, there were people who believed revolution was around the corner. And, you know, and we were things that created a culture of fear, did things that created the juice that people like Gingrich and wail on those folks used to sort of create the caricature. So, to that was certainly destructive. But you know, but it was mostly destructive. I mean, was not really that society. I would it was mostly oh, no, but-but-but destroying the move. I mean, if I looked at the people like the weathermen, or there was this group, where I was at Stanford, strutting around with the little A.K 47 buttons on their jackets, and, you know, they did help destroy the movement. There is no question about that. And, you know, and-and I think, you know, there are some serious, you know, at least criticism or blame or whatever. And some of the people I mean, if you look at somebody like Mark Raj, who is very active with the weatherman has been very-very, you know, publicly self-critical and just said, look, you know, you know, yeah, we did, you know, we did some things, you know, we were important. We did things in good faith, but we were all different things, many, many things that were disastrous. Do not romanticize those things because they are not worth, you know, they are not, they are not things that should be emulated. 20:28 SM: Mm hmm. I am interviewing him Monday. 20:30 PL: Okay. Oh, yeah. Tell him hi. 20:32 SM: Yeah. Yeah. What are they? What are the qualities that many boomers though used to say, and I am this might be across the board in that is this feeling of uniqueness, that we are a very unique generation, we are going to end war? We are going to bring healing to the world, almost kind of a utopian kind of a mentality. 20:54 PL: You know, I think there was an interesting move, if you look to the part of it was the economy and the size of the generation, I mean, I think that there was this sort of sense of profit, there was a sense of possibility that, you know, I felt like, I mean, it was not true for everybody. I mean, if you grew up economically really poor, you did not have that kind of possibility. Or you did not have nearly as much. But I mean, if you grew up, certainly, if you grew up middle class, you really did. And you saw it, okay, things are going to get better. And you can do whatever, you know, you could do whatever you-you know, sit your heart on, and-and you could attack the society could tackle problems. And there was a lot. Yeah, I mean, do not forget, there were I mean, at that point, in right after World War II, I mean, Europe and Japan's economies were in ruins, you know, they had been bombed, you know, and fought over. And so, we were really the lonely large, you know, the large, healthy, advanced industrial power, because, England, but they were a lot smaller, and bombed to, you know, they kind of emerged unscathed, strong and just, you know, dominated that post war era. So, I think some of that rubbed off in the sense of I mean, tendency was arrogance to those who was possibility, you know if it was good and bad, but I think it did say, yeah, we could solve the problem. Now, you know, fast forward to now, it is a lot bleaker. People are a lot more skeptical and cynical. I think that is true. 22:17 SM: Oftentimes, in when you talk about the generalities that the Gingrich’s and will use it continue. I know, Will does that all the time. I have got one of his latest books. He has got a couple essays in there taking the shots. But another thing that was often used against the generation was something that may have been sure that only 15 percent of the boomers were truly involved in activism in their youth. Right, and they use it as a negative knowing that if you really look at the statistics there, you are dealing with 15 percent of 70 plus million, which is a lot of people. 22:53 PL: Yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, I do not know if I would just, I do not think it is a negative. It is just the reality. I mean, it is just as, yeah, you know, this was not everybody. And it usually is not in any context in any social movement. And look at what was accomplished, I would say an awful lot of really important powerful things by, you know, a relatively modest amount of people. And that should be an inspiration. I do not think it should be a knock, knock. And it certainly should not be a knock on those people who acted like somehow there was something wrong with them, because it was not 100 percent of the people throwing them. I mean, that would be a ridiculous argument. 23:33 SM: That is like when you look at the generation X that you have talked about, which are the kids, oftentimes the kids of the Korean War era, or, you know, the (19)60s. These qualities oftentimes come out here. And maybe you can generalize again, even about the generation Xers. Here is some of the qualities, the parents’ divorce rate. They grew up in an era radically different from the one that gave rise to the (19)60s generation. The parents divorce rate, the downturn in jobs, the one in four household where there is a single adult to be financially self-sufficient, singular in loving relationships and that and rebel against chaos and disorder where the boomers were rebelling against the system, that these are certainly some of the qualities that the generation Xers have. But maybe we are dealing with the same thing, Paul. Yeah, I think, cannot generalize about them either. 24:26 PL: Yeah, I think there is divisions within the generation. I mean, it really is, you know, they are, you know, they are the, they are people. You know, I think that the economic instability is real. I mean, let us, you know, recognize it basically, since about (19)73 of the US economy for most people, and going downhill for the rich it is not, most people it has, and so they were very much affected by that. And you know, and so they grew up in that context, so does not you know, as a quote millennial, those of us hearing coming of age in Vietnam, we are, you know, was a period of rising, you know, rising standards of living and rising affluence and, and, you know, surely being fairly distributed. So, you are not fairly but you know, more so than now. So, I think I think that that affects, you know that the insecurity affects people. I think the media stereotype protected people. I think, I mean again, the divorce rate is so complicated because if I looked at the people who did and did not get involved, and the ones who like when I was doing generation, the cross, who had what I would consider sort of generous, or socially engaged sensibility, you know, some of them came from, you know, pro down, you know, intact homes. Some of them came from divorced home. Some of the most just people with the awfulest sensibility came from, you know, very traditional family. So, I do not think you can necessarily, you know, sort of draw on the divorce act, just say, okay, this leads people to withdraw from engagement, this leads people to engage. It is very complicated. And I always try to make four arguments either way. 26:08 SM: In your eyes, when did the (19)60s begin the watershed moment? And what was the watershed moment when it ended? 26:15 PL: Oh, I do not know. You know, I mean, it, you know, it is, there is lots of watershed, you know, I mean, there is the obvious ones, you know, Berkeley Free Speech Movement, there is the, you know, the early sort of second wave of, I mean, the Civil Rights Movement is building and building, but there still was a kind of surge with those effects. I think we were (19)59 even. So, it is like the Greensville the lunch counter said in some of the first places. I am always bad on dates, but, you know, those were in the very beginning and they kind of, you know, took things to a level higher than they have been, you know, so you could date that, you know, when does it end? You know, hard to say I mean, obviously, by the time the Vietnam War ends in mid (19)70s. It is over. But is it still, you know, I mean, I think you would be insane to say that, like the year 1970, which had Kent State, which had the most kind of the highest level of protests in anywhere was not part of the (19)60s, obviously it was? And it was no, you know, I mean, you could say that there is turning, you know, when King or Kennedy was shot, that was the turning point and stuff starts spiraling down. And, you know, maybe, well, attendees pretty early, but you know, are in and, you know, in (19)68, I mean, yeah, I think people started damping hope to at that point, you know, getting more cynical and despairing. But you know, it is hard to know when it exactly ends. I mean, I, I remember I moved after I got kicked out of Stanford, which was it was the spring of (19)72 that I got kicked out. And so, then I moved to New York City to finish school in the fall of (19)70. And I thought, gee, New York, the whole lot less active than then, you know, we were in the bay. area. Well, maybe that was maybe it was not. But part of what we are seeing is the beginning of sort of the diminishing energy of those movements. They are still around, they still were pretty large, but they were definitely less than they had been two years ago. You know, two years before and by another two years, they were markedly less still. 28:20 SM: When we took a group of students when I was the university, I would say about 10 years ago, we took a group down to Washington, we met Senator Muskie before he passed away. And the students were working on questions with me. And the question we wanted to ask is what he felt about that 1968 convention and whether we were heading toward a second Civil War kind of breakdown of our society. And so, I want to read this because this is the event question that we asked him and then he responded in a totally different way than we thought he was going to. Here is the question. Do you feel boards are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth, divisions between fat black and white, gay and straight male and female divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? In your view, what does the Vietnam Memorial play in healing the divisions that was primarily a healing? Or was it just primarily healing for veterans? And finally, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? And the reason why they said that is because I have taken students to Gettysburg, and we had people there talking about how had not healed since the Civil War. Am I wrong and thinking this or is four years made the statement Time heals all wounds a truth? I am really getting into the question here. Do we have a healing issue in the nation within this generation? That never really came to terms with the divisions? And when the- 29:55 PL: Well, that is a good question I mean, you know, certainly some of the divisions are there, and all the gay, straight one is there less than I think in the younger people, but certainly in older people, you know, if you were gay, it was a miserable time to be gay. But the too there, there was a sort of, there was different kinds of divisions, if you have listened to there was the, you know, the divisions of class and race and all that, you know, which, you know, which our society is still very much wrestling with. And then there was a sort of political division. You know no, I mean, you know, I think that there partly because people did continue on down the, you know, a lot of them, you know, there are certainly still some lingering, you know, if you are really on the other side, and hostile to these movements, you know, I probably have a little bit of mistrust. On the other hand, you know, we have had the sort of crucible of eight years, or I do not know what your congress but-but-but it was that eight years of George Bush, and, you know, so I am like to look at people's response during that period a lot more closely. If they are my age than I do their responses 40 years ago and say, well, where were they? Which side Were they on? Did they respond? Did they do anything? You know? And so, if somebody, you know, if somebody responded, in a way question where I think we are the fastest abuses of the Bush period, and they were on the other side for me during Vietnam, I think my response, if anything is gratitude. It is like, oh, that is great. You know, 30-40 years ago, they were on the other side. And now here, you know, now here, they are, they are recognizing that there is a real problem push. So, if anything, I probably like more Facebook them, anybody who has been active on my own side all along. On the other hand, the people who were like, you know, gung-ho for Vietnam and gung-ho for Iraq and all that. Well, you know, I got to say that I do not think they have been very good for the country, you know. 31:53 SM: Right, yeah. It is kind of the, the way muskie responded was that he did not respond at all about the-the (19)68 convention and, you know, confrontation between the police and the and the young people. He basically said that we have not healed from the Civil War. And then he went on for about 15 minutes to explain why he felt that way. Because he had been in the hospital, he saw the Ken Burns film series when he was in the hospital. And he said, do you realize as young people if you know your history that over 430,000 men died in that war? And it was almost an entire generation that we could have? We could have that we lost because of the best. 32:35 PL: Yeah-yeah, that is kind of interesting. I mean, I would, I would say is that that he, basically, that the Confederates never completely surrendered, and are a destructive force in our society still. I mean, that is, you know, I mean, if I looked at the base of the Republican Party, not all of it, but a bunch of it is in that, you know, old unreconstructed doubt in some ways and those old power structures that just, you know, I mean, they, you know, slavery ended and then there was segregation, and they made a few accommodations. But you know, it the white party of the South, you know, not entirely, you know, but a lot of it is its strongest base. And it is basically, you know, it is the party, though it is the party that resisted any attempt that, you know, those seats resisted any unionization. Right, you know, workers did not have any alternative. The religious institutions will, you know, with every, you know, some really important exceptions, primarily lined up on the the ones in the white culture are lined up on the wrong side in the Civil Rights battles, you know, and are still supporting to me my own kind of culture of plantation politics and greed. And again, I mean, I do not, you know, I know incredible activists in the South, they are doing wonderful thing. But I do think this that sort of unreconstructed Confederacy is, or you know, they are not-not unreconstructed. You know, only modestly reconstructed, etc. inveterate ethic. I think he is still alive and well, and, you know, it was running the show and a lot of ways during the Bush years. So, um, so that would be the way that I would say that from it. The number who died well, you know, that is a long time ago and I do not, you know, they had whatever legacy, you know, obviously those people were not around afterwards. That does not, you know, by now they would have all been dead anyway. So that is a failure. 34:22 SM: But I think the last Civil War veteran died in 1924. They have a statue for him in the Gettysburg Battlefield. 34:30 PL: Yeah. So, you know, it is a politics that is continued and that, that is real. 34:34 SM: You can kind of see it when you go to go to Gettysburg, you go on the southern side to see all the flags and flowers left on the north, you do not see anything. So, I just find that I go over four times a year and it is amazing. Two qualities here that I think are important in the boomer generation, this is all 70 plus million. And that is even though people may not have been involved in that 15 percent that were, you have got to say that the boomers were kind of a movement generation with the civil rights, the antiwar, and certainly the gay and lesbian, Native American, Chicano, environmental movements that came forth. And the second quality is the fact that they are very- they do not trust. And that was for obvious reasons, because so many of the leaders lied to them. And-and so and so, do you consider this generation of very non trusting generation and then a generation that really is a movement generation? 35:34 PL: Well, I mean, I think that there is more. Yeah, I think there is more skepticism. You know, that is definitely true, certainly than the- Well, again, it is tricky, because I think that all the generation now is equally untrusting. So, I think you know, that it is a period of the time, you know, pre (19)60s posting the level of reciprocity, that that is what I would argue the difference is. 35:58 SM: Do you think that some political science professors will say when they teach American government that a little bit of skepticism is healthy for democracy. 36:10 PL: Oh, a little, yeah. I mean, it is definitely you want skepticism, but you do not want it to devolve into complete cynicism and uptake. You know, that is the that is the line that that we have got to be walking its sort of- 36:25 SM: What, Jan Scrunch wrote a book on the Vietnam Memorial called to Heal a Nation, and it was the kick, it came out about 1987 I believe it was pretty good book. And he talks about building that wall not only to heal the Vietnam Veterans and their families and those who died in the war, but in a sense to heal the nation as a whole. With respect to that war. What do you think that wall was done? 36:50 PL: I do think that what is interesting is the people who visited whatever their perspectives are moved by it. The ones who support the war, you know, they sort of see, you know, here are the people who died in the just cause and the ones who oppose the war, like myself see it as a testament to just the complete madness of that war. But, you know, and by-by basically going to, I mean, you know, you should, you know, to really be realistic about the impact of that war, you would have a memorial as well for the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians. And it would stretch, you know, halfway across Washington, DC, you know, I mean, a million to 2 million people died. But for the at least for the US side, it does come to you know, how do I describe it. People respond and are moved by the death. And everybody's respond by interestingly though, the number of times I have been there, the-the sort of political writing systems that they have this sort of kind of heroic that you nearby of the GIS and stuff, he goes to that I mean, they kind of give two seconds of a look. And it does not ring true, I do not think. But the wall rings true. And wall rings true for everybody. 38:07 SM: Of all the terrible events and good events that happened in the (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, is there one that sticks out in your mind more than any other? That may, that may have had been the greatest shock to a generation not only the activists, but the subconsciously affected the entire generation? 38:29 PL: God? I do not know. I mean, nothing, you know, I mean, there is still, there is obvious terrible events, you know, like assassination. Um, and, you know, there is sort of moments of great possibility, like, the huge protests and marches and stuff. But I do not really think that I do not think you can say here is the defining event or something like that. 38:52 SM: In your I think you were born in (19)52? 38:54 PL: Correct. 38:55 SM: Yeah. Obviously, you were very young in the (19)50s. But there was something About that you are talking about boomers. Now we are talking about from (19)46 to (19)64. And then you got the two groups. As we talked about it, everything seemed to be hunky dory, everything was fine. You know, parents were home from the war, giving their kids everything, they wanted. And even though we had the threat of nuclear disaster every day and McCarthy hearings for those that can remember early on about that man yelling on TV that people were communists and the fear and all that other stuff, and then the television shows of the (19)50s where kids seem to always be happy, and there did not seem to be too many African Americans or people of color on those shows. And then all of a sudden, the (19)60s came and some people saw realization that the- what was going on in the (19)50s was really they were hiding things right. I interviewed, Richie Havens, and Richie Havens said the (19)50s was the hidden generation. Everything was hidden and the truth finally came out? Yeah. Yeah. Do you have you when in your studies of young people, when you study them? Do they talk about the media and the-the-the effects that it has had on them? 40:17 PL: No, I do not you know I think I think they take it for granted. I mean, I think to say, oh, you know, it is like, they do not even think that much about oh, you know, I do not think they, they think this is, you know, this is what the media influencing me, this is how the media is influencing. They just think, no, this is what I know about the world, and I do not think they think that much about, like, where it came from. 40:56 SM: What, I am going to ask a couple questions here about specific events, and how but what they mean to you in the big scheme of things for the-the boomer generation and maybe in American history as a whole. What does the Kent State and Jackson state killings mean to you? 41:14 PL: Well, what they meant to me is that they are, you know, a couple of things. I mean, they, they meant that the Nixon, you know, regime, which I sort of blame for them, in some ways, certainly, in the case of Kent State, and I think probably Jackson State too, you know, sort of there was a test that, you know, go ahead, you know, fire on protesters, that they were willing to kill people. And I think it did really scare people make people angry. It had a dual effect. I mean, it, it escalated things. But it but it also, it also kind of, you know, probably did dawn people somewhat but it definitely it definitely raised the stakes. 42:00 SM: What does Watergate mean to you? 42:04 PL: Well, I mean, Watergate, it is interesting because it is it. It is a profound betrayal of the political process. And fortunately, it came to light. What is discouraging though, is if you fast forward, the Republican Party did not stop doing those things. So, you know, the [inaudible] politic was about exactly the same kinds of things. And the abuses in Florida, 2000 and Ohio 2004 that, in my view, both cases elected George Bush and reelected him. Um, those were coming out of the same. I mean, you know, it is sort of like you have got the rules, and you may not like the rules, but you live within the rules. We may try and, you know, you know, whatever at the end, you know, if you act in a certain way and your party gets a little advantage because of the way the rules happened to be written, well, that is life. But when you start breaking the rules, then it can get pretty ugly pretty quickly, which I think it did in the case of Watergate. I mean, I know evil pro was the guy who hired the guy [inaudible] He was the guy who hired G. Gordon Liddy originally. And he said, and he went to jail for Watergate and then really repented. And he said to me, he said, we almost destroyed. He said, as a judge, too. But, you know, when we were talking, I said, you know, we almost destroyed democracy. We are so convinced that the stakes were so high, that we had to do whatever we needed, whatever needed to be done, and we almost destroyed democracy. Pretty scary. 43:39 SM: What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love mean to you? They are two different things. 43:45 PL: Well, I mean, Woodstock was a concert. I mean, I guess it got a solid. Yes, it did get mythologized. But, you know, by the right in the left, you know, left is like, you know, Woodstock nation. You know, the right is like the dirty hippies are taking over. It was a big you know; it was a big concert. I mean, I, you know, if I lived on the East coast, I probably would have gone to it. I did not because I lived on the West coast. But, you know, I think that the idea of inflating it into some statement, or political movement is just ridiculous. I mean, it was, you know, other than the fact that, you know, it shows that there are a lot of people who like rock music and like to smoke. Yeah, we did not take other drugs. And then there was a general sentiment against the war. But it was not an activist effort. It just never was. You know, the Summer of Love was in it was sort of I mean, like, I well, I guess that is a slightly well, no, that is I think that is where that song I was thinking there as there was that Eric Burdon song about San Francisco and stuff and where is flowers near here? Yeah. 44:48 SM: Lee Hazelwood. I think. 44:51 PL: That was Lee Hazelwood without yeah-yeah-yeah. Burton wrote song about? 44:54 SM: I am not sure. 44:58 PL: I cannot, Burton wrote some terrible songs. I just remember always being from whoever gave oh, hold on a second. Maybe the furnace people are here. 45:10 SM: A few more minutes here. Okay, go. 45:14 PL: Yeah, so oh, I always this sort of say I mean, I, you know, I think that, you know, that psychedelic, that you know, mixed effect. And for me, I enjoyed the stuff that I took, but I always really, whoever gave Eric Burdon acid, I was I was just, you know, a tire Hitman because he was so good before he took acid. He was so insipid after he you know, it is bad. Yeah. I mean, there were musicians who said, you know, when they bloomed when they took acid, but he was, you know, again, I look at the Summer of Love and oh, that was what I was thinking of a girl called Dan dos. I mean, I was pretty stupid. You know, it was like, well, yeah, there was a whole bunch of people coming in. Uh, you know, to the Hayden wherever and I mean, it was, I do not know, again, maybe because I am more rooted in the political side, just sort of feel like, it was nice, you know, nothing against any of those folks. But the idea that somehow growing your hair out, you know, well, you know, we are taking smoking marijuana instead of drinking alcohol would somehow usher in a political change is just kind of silly and I think the media kind of inflated that. 46:36 SM: Let me turn my tape here we got fifteen- What-what did the counterculture mean to you? 46:40 PL: Well, again, I think the counterculture was sort of a yearning, you know, and again, I mean, you know, some of it did get realized. I mean, for instance, Vermont politics changed because of the counterculture because a lot of people settled and went back to the land in Vermont, and it was a small state and, you know, if they are, you know, now they got Bernie Sanders. So, it was not completely apolitical, and it was not completely detached to the impact. But I think that, generally speaking, again, it was just it was lifestyle, and it was recreation and no and-and that was fine. I had nothing against it. I mean, I, you know, I would like some of those drugs. But you know, in moderation, you know, otherwise I would not have bought near with, and I am glad I did not go near. Yeah, I have always had a pretty sharp dish and, you know, soft and heartbroken, you know, never touched those other ones. I am glad I did not. Um, but I do think that, you know, the, the idea that you can sort of carve out your own private retreat. I think that that that is sort of a very American fallacy. We are all interconnected, and you got to deal with the big public issue. 47:52 SM: What about the hippies in the hippies. Your thoughts on them? 47:56 PL: Well, I mean, the hippies were an attempt to politicize the counterculture. Anyway. To some extent it worked. I mean, they, you know, I mean, I never liked Jerry Rubin, I always thought he would just be a jerk, you know, and then the kill your parents’ stuff. No stupid. But you know, Abbie Hoffman was a great, I mean, he was a great founder. And he was, you know, he funny and imaginative. And I remember being a teenager being really inspired by him because he was so creative. And there was such a sense of play, and humor. So, I think that that, you know, that that 10th actually was, you know, I liked what they did. I mean, you know, does he could he really make a movement of it? I do not know, but you could, you could certainly use elements of it in any movement that you know, display and the humor and they, you know, I mean, I remember when they scattered money, I think they walled off the stock exchange with plastic, you know, barriers now, but it was true money down on the floor, and all these brokers were like, scrambling for it is, I mean, that was a wonderful moment. And you know, and it was completely nonviolent. It was creative, and I, you know, did-did that move American politics in a good direction? Yeah, I think it did. You know, um, you know versus stuff that created real fear of backlash. So yeah, I liked the moment they did. 49:06 SM: Your thoughts on the Students for Democratic Society/Weathermen. And then the Civil Rights Movement/Black Power, Black Panthers. 49:16 PL: I mean, I think in both cases, that you know, what happened is that a lot of frustration and bitterness is that the pace of change was slow. And so, you know, a lot of these so if you look at some of the people that were, you know, in SDS, even the ones that some of the ones went in weathermen started out very idealistic, and they were an accountant, or were they all the players, but like, you know, they were like teaching in an alternative school in a poor neighborhood and stuff like that. And then I think they just got weighed down by guilt and anger. And, you know, here was what they were doing, and people were dying, which was true, and the war was not ending so you have to escalate and bring it home. And when they did not recognize is a that the peaceful nonviolent protests were having an impact. But Nixon just did not acknowledge that. I mean, was a huge more horrendous stop from nine to stop them from potentially using nuclear weapons and vs North Vietnam. And you know, in his in his memoirs and all those, you know, memories, people worked with them. But people are getting really frustrated, you know, and so and then what they did basically destroy the movement because people looked at, and they thought, this is crazy. You know, both people in the movement, people sympathetic. And then people outside it just said, the fear. And allowed Reagan and George Wallace and all these people to run against it. The same thing is true to some extent on the black, you know, the black nationalist movements from the Black Panthers is you had people who well its complicated. Um, you know, certainly there were good community projects that some of those did, you know, the free breakfast and the free clinics and all that stuff. And they kind of built the political base that led to changing what you know, well in the Panthers, open, good ways, but again, all the sort of militaristic running around all that day is to make them good targets for the cops to, you know, go crazy. And then you add in with that sort of militaristic, you know, kind of style, he will the door for other abuses. So, you have, you know, people like, you know, doing you would not be getting involved in, you know, your bad news, hard drugs and you know, essentially, you know, destroying his own promising life, but also helping again destroy the movement. So, I just think that it is really important to be mindful that that, you know, if you kind of create a culture of fear, it has got a high potential backlash. 51:36 SM: Yeah. And, and again, that could be the reasons why you hear the Gingrich’s and the Wills. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It was like, Richie Havens, when I interviewed him, last week said that his parents raised him to be one of the good people. And that was a very important thing, and he made similar comments that you are making about the fact you know, that make sure that what you do is for the right reasons and so forth. What do you have the last one here is the Vietnam Veterans against the war? Your thoughts on them? 52:09 PL: Hugely important. I mean, usually, I mean, the reason the right hate is John Kerry is because he was involved in that group. I mean, so, you know, what they were, you know, it was the testaments to the death. And nobody had greater credibility. I mean, if you talk about turning points against the war, when significant numbers of veteran turned against for that was when the war had to and, you know, that was when they could not continue it. So, you know, I think that it was tremendously important organization, you know, made a huge impact. And, you know, people in the end, and that is why I always get angry at the stuff about the myth about spitting on soldiers. I mean, it probably happened a couple of times, but by and large, people in the antiwar movement were pretty, I mean, they kind of reach out to the bat, because they knew that if they, you know, they did their compassion. They knew that they were caught in the middle, but also, they knew that most people at least the anti-war movement that you know, if they did speak out, it was a very powerful testament. 53:04 SM: But what did you see when you saw that helicopter flying off the roof at the embassy in in on April 30, 1975. That the war was finally over. 53:15 PL: Well, I think it was anti-climactic. It was like the word gone and kind of wound down but had not quite. And then okay, it was over. I mean, I think it was just finally released that it really is over. Because I think that was mostly- 53:27 SM: When all the things happened in Cambodia with the Kamer Rouge. Did you ever have any second thoughts? 53:32 PL: No, because I mean, basically, not at all. I mean, you know, because Cambodia was a, I mean, it was a stable country. I mean, they call it what it was, they did not call I think they call it like the Paris of Southeast Asia. I mean, it was it was a stable country that we went in, and completely destabilized, destroyed the existing structures created this void that Khmer Rouge entered in and accrue. Of course, they were horrible. You know, but to blame the answer. I mean, you know, the blame the antiwar moves perfect Khmer Rouge is just has no relation to reality. I mean, you know, we were not for Nixon, he would not have happened. You know, and yes, you know, there is probably a handful of people who initially, you know, like, you know, they are not trusting their point then. But I think pretty quickly, you will realize, you know, how awful they were. But again, the number of causation on you know, the causes that Nixon expanded the word of Cambodia and destroyed that country. 54:31 SM: Richie Havens said something last week when I interviewed him, he said that Woodstock served a very important purpose is first off, he said it got us involved in a lot of different types of music, but-but they could not hide us anymore. And he was talking about 1959 was because a lot of the musicians that came out in New York City at that 1959 period, Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Richie Havens, and the list goes on and on there, Peter Paul and Mary, they were kind of being hidden by society. And then they exploded in the (19)60s. 55:07 PL: Well, it certainly is true is that there is a lot of, you know, there are a lot and havens is currently one of them. There are a lot of musicians for bearing witness. And I mean, they kind of had a how to put it. I mean, they were voicing, they were voicing the common concern. And that powerful then that amplifies it. But I mean, I think when everyone does that, it is really powerful. I mean, I think that there was I mean, I remember riding on an airplane next to Jack Cassidy from just an airplane. 55:35 SM: Oh, yeah. 55:36 PL: And I was talking with him. And he said, you know, we wanted to play blues and all of a sudden, we were like, asked to lead the revolution, you know what to do? There, there are false expectations placed on or impossible expectations placed on some of the musicians. But-but I also think that, you know, in that sense, I would agree with Havens that, you know, when some when-when you hear a lot of people you are powerful music that talks about the real issues of our time, it has an impact. And you know, and last, I mean, it was not just the phone, you know, I mean, the, you know, it was it was a whole spectrum of people who are speaking out through their music and that was influential. 56:15 SM: He also said it would be he felt that that are not generally we had to create our own voice because we were the last generation that do not speak until you are spoken to generation, and he was pretty emphatic about that. 56:31 PL: Well, I mean, I think that there was there was a loosening up, you know, and that, you know, and, and it is this sort of nostalgia for the old Lord or kind of, you know, be silent and-and-and-and-and accommodate that. You know, I think that that is what they want to go back to. 56:50 SM: Right after you came to West Chester University back in the (19)90s. We did two programs, two major programs, where we brought in boomers and generation Xers, we had it in the theater. We had one in the fall and one in the spring to talk about the issues. The final conclusion, two conclusions came out of that conference is that and regarding the generation Xers thoughts about the boomers, the generation that preceded them, number one, they were tired of hearing about the times, and all the nostalgia that the boomer generation kept talking about. And then the other group said, he was, I wish we could have lived then during a time when there were so many issues and causes. I just wish we had issues like that. 57:33 PL: Well, I think both of those are still running. I mean, so, you know, especially now, he later, you know, the idea of I mean, like, I mean, I remember when I was growing up, and like I was sick and tired of like these World War II vets, like, oh, we were you know, we were so wonderful. And I mean, yeah, it was like, yes, you did a really important thing. I am going to certainly acknowledge you are courage and all the rest of it, but on some level, I was higher. You know, I was tired of grandpa's stories. On a certain level, and even, you know, even though important things were done, and, you know, so I think that there is the, you know, the idea that the be all and end all on the eternal reference damned for any protest or for anybody comes afterwards because you can never meet it because it is sort of an unrealistic standard. The flipside is the as you said, the romanticization of like, well, if I live there, I do not so I am not so yeah. 58:27 SM: Yeah, and finally, the conclusion is here that of those two major programs because we brought in TV personalities to actually moderate in some of our faculty were boomers actually got upset with the students. But another coupl- some of the qualities the boomers have a- the boomers always have to have a cause to be happy. Some of the students said the boomers are arrogant, boomers think they are better than other generations because they speak up more and challenge the status quo. Boomers are quick to judge people's weaknesses rather than their strengths, so that these are like some of the things that came out of those- 59:06 PL: Yeah, but you know, I think he is on the media stereotype. There has been- I mean, again, having I mean, you will, you know, quick was quick to judge me. And I think, you know, if you are, if a country is going in, you know, wrong war, you want to make a judgment about that, you know, if you have a debate on a political issue, you want to make a judgement, what is wrong and make a judgement? You know, I do not see anything with that. I mean, it is, you know, if you say they bill, you know, they are condemning us for not living up to well, I do not know, certainly, there was a feeling that that did, where people who bought the media line, were dismissing subsequent generations far more than sure then that was wrong. So, I did hear I did hear that I mean, I, when I was talking when I was doing generation, the crossword that I am doing a book on student values and people would say did they have any values. And, you know, that was that was born of misinformation that was born of reading these condescending Ed report that was important back to talking with people. And reciprocally. The, you know, the students saying, yeah, they all betrayed their values. They all sold out, the generation X people think, you know, the boomer generation, they all sold out, they betrayed their values. Well, that was garbage too. But again, based on the same kind of media stereotype. 1:00:27 SM: Well, your book, I am almost done here. I got two more questions. Generation yeah, generation the crossroads is one heck of a book and in there you list some of the qualities that about the generation Xers which again, are the- a lot of the kids and I know you can generalize this he could, but he must have some experiences what-what kind of parents do you think the boomers have been? When some of the things that you listen to your book, the qualities that most of the generation had- was is a sense of individualism, a mistrust of social movements an isolation from the urgent, big things that are happening in the world at the time, maybe some historical ignorance. And then you look at some of the other qualities that they are more interested in the smaller picture, when they are in the state of the world, their whole differences in how they parent their interest in the body, which is more important than certainly the (19)60s generation and work seems to be more important, you know, in the generation Xers, all these things, what do you I guess what I am getting at is what had the boomers passed on to their kids. 1:01:43 PL: But see, again I you know, this is where, I mean when I look at, you know, it depends on who you are talking about, right? If I look at so when I was interviewing students, and I said, you know, I looked at these students who are really just, you know, greedy, you know, called greedy or detached or just whatever, because they did not have parents who are social activists, none of them did. You know, and if I looked at the people who were involved, not all but a disproportionate chunk, often did have to parent do I mean, I think that they are these firms have to actually finally get engaged, keep taking these stands, and then they pass it on. And you know, wherever the whatever the, you know the lines of okay, this year at that year, wherever they fall, you know, they are passing something on have a tradition of engagement, and the people pass on the tradition of disengagement. They do that, too. So, you know, it just seems to me that, um, you know, that is just really wrong to say, you know, here is this generation passed on somewhat dubious values, because the answer is which part of the generation did that. 1:02:55 SM: Good point. My last question, Paul, and this is the last one. It is about the university. What did the university, the college learn about from the (19)60s? We know about the Free Speech Movement? We knew about the activism that was happening on college campuses, like- 1:03:11 PL: Like how does the university? 1:03:12 SM: Yeah, and-and it seems to me today, and we know the students are involved in massive amounts of volunteers and probably 95 percent. So, you cannot say they do not care. However, my sense is that universities today still have not learned from the (19)60s because they were afraid of rising activism, which to me is a little bit different than volunteerism, it was 24/7 mentalities as opposed to two hours a week and the universities learn anything from the past, or are they doomed to repeat the mistakes they made back then? 1:03:47 PL: Well, I mean, I think, again, it depends on who you are talking about. But I certainly I think that there is certainly people who are trying to get their students engaged in a [inaudible] the people, you know, and then there is also you know, once you do sort of feel like that okay, why do not they just shut up and let us run this run the university or the college? You know, I mean, and I have seen both attitudes, obviously, I think one produces a better play a better, I will say a better educational experience. You know, even if there is contention, an argument and all the rest of it, I think ultimately, it is a better educational experience. You know, so, I mean, that is the stream that I am much more supportive of. 1:04:28 SM: Right, well Paul, thank you very much. Sure. I will, you will certainly see the transcript. I have got a lot of I am doing all my interviews by May 15. And then the transcripts and all and so I will be in touch with you down the road. Okay, great. And you keep carrying on Paul. 1:04:46 PL: All right. Say hi to Mark Rudd. 1:04:47 SM: Oh, I will, okay, bye-bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Loeb Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Loeb, Paul Rogat, 1952- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Journalists; Political activists--United States; Loeb, Paul Rogat, 1952--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Loeb, a native of Berkeley, California, is an author, journalist, and political activist. Loeb has published five books and has done interviews for TV and radio including CNN, NBC, and PBS. He has written for many well-known journals and newspapers including the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, the <em>Los Angeles Times</em>, <em>The Economist</em> and many more. Loeb graduated from Stanford University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.82 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 64:52 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ee3b44e7d0e80e933c52cbf26cca2490.jpg b4feaffecf8b7b138fce7a3d1181bd96 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f601bbdb30687ff8efc7d750f8cecb3.mp3 536dac3bfbec1c0fa095cff2e5d26b10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-08-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Jay Lifton, 1926- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Robert Jay Lifton is a psychiatrist, author, researcher, and educator. He studied medicine at Cornell University and New York Medical College. He works mostly on the psychological causes and effects of war and political violence. He has written and published many books on his work.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Dr. Robert Jay Lifton is a psychiatrist, author, researcher, and educator. He studied medicine at Cornell University and New York Medical College. He works mostly on the psychological causes and effects of war and political violence. He has written and published many books on his work.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; SDS; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam Veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; SDS; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam Veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 104:57 Subject LCSH Psychiatrists; Authors; War—Psychological aspects; Lifton, Robert Jay, 1926--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Robert Jay Lifton Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lifton, Robert Jay, 1926- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Psychiatrists; Authors; War—Psychological aspects; Lifton, Robert Jay, 1926--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Robert Jay Lifton is a psychiatrist, author, researcher, and educator. He studied medicine at Cornell University and New York Medical College. He works mostly on the psychological causes and effects of war and political violence. He has written and published many books on his work. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.81 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 104:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4d2c4734fa58af86dbe533d28c9d04bc.jpg ff78c5b91e27e6ff0482245b4868c94c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e8bde2fa588015f45463756d67755f93.mp3 6c2f5d77b4cd0aa69245bba8815f0b46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Lewis, 1940 February 21 - 2020 July 17 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John Lewis is a politician and was a civil rights leader. He is the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving since 1987. Lewis has a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he is a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">John Lewis was a politician and a civil rights leader. He was the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving from 1987 until his death in 2020. Lewis had a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he was a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:28 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Questioning authority; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam War; Environmental issues; the Environmental Movement; Dr. Benjamin Spock; Berrigan Brothers; Timothy Leary.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Questioning authority; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Vietnam War; Environmental issues; the Environmental Movement; Dr. Benjamin Spock; Berrigan Brothers; Timothy Leary.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Lewis, John, 1940 February 21--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Lewis Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John Lewis is a politician and was a civil rights leader. He is the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving since 1987. Lewis has a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he is a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">John Lewis was a politician and a civil rights leader. He was the U.S. Representative for Georgia's 5th congressional district, serving from 1987 until his death in 2020. Lewis had a Bachelor's degree in Religion and Philosophy from Fisk University, and he was a graduate of the American Baptist Theological Seminary. He was the keynote speaker at the historic March on Washington in August 1963.</span> Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewis, John, 1940 February 21 - 2020 July 17 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Lewis, John, 1940 February 21--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.80 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 41:28 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b5c283fccadf7918c75f56bd48fc090a.jpg dbb17fb20fd2552e16d27af3a9d4280f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c66f08ecf1d856579133f47d17b70fff.mp3 b50e4e4333d44609e4021bc361dd7509 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2004-07-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arthur Levine Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 65:09 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Arthur Levine is scholar, educator, author and administrator. Dr. Levine is currently the president of of the Woodrow Wilson Foundation. Previously, he was president and professor of education at Teachers College, Columbia University and Bradford College. He is the author of several books and articles. Dr. Levine received his Bachelor’s degree from Brandeis University and his Ph.D. from the State University of New York at Buffalo.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15107,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Arthur Levine is a scholar, educator, author and administrator. Dr. Levine is currently the president of the Woodrow Wilson Foundation. Previously, he was president and professor of education at Teachers College, Columbia University and Bradford College. He is the author of several books and articles. Dr. Levine received his Bachelor’s degree from Brandeis University and his Ph.D. from the State University of New York at Buffalo.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;College in the Nineteen sixties and Nineteen seventies; Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement; Watergate; Vietnam Memorial; Ronald Reagan; Lynden Johnson; Kent State; Jackson State.\n&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:769,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">College in the Nineteen sixties and Nineteen seventies; Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement; Watergate; Vietnam Memorial; Ronald Reagan; Lynden Johnson; Kent State; Jackson State.<br /></span> Subject LCSH Scholars; Authors; Woodrow Wilson Foundation; Levine, Arthur--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Arthur Levine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Levine, Arthur ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Scholars; Authors; Woodrow Wilson Foundation; Levine, Arthur--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Arthur Levine is a scholar, educator, author and administrator. Dr. Levine is currently the president of the Woodrow Wilson Foundation. Previously, he was president and professor of education at Teachers College, Columbia University and Bradford College. He is the author of several books and articles. Dr. Levine received his Bachelor’s degree from Brandeis University and his Ph.D. from the State University of New York at Buffalo. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-07-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.79 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:09 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/074eeefbc3f4cd948169391490fd99e2.jpg 5c5261217874e358939a16f5ad71a580 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e403aaf6ff4c9bd47b1740b6ffefcaf6.mp3 19d4eb30e0c6e4b5cd3bea2b388064f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-02 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julius Lester Language English Biographical Text Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department. Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry. His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 213:05 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Montgomery bus boycott; Kathleen Cleaver; Black Panther Party; Muhammad Ali; Civil Rights Movement; Angela Davis; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; James Baldwin; Thurgood Marshall; Leroy Jones; Emmett Till; Lynden Johnson.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">Montgomery bus boycott; Kathleen Cleaver; Black Panther Party; Muhammad Ali; Civil Rights Movement; Angela Davis; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; James Baldwin; Thurgood Marshall; Leroy Jones; Emmett Till; Lyndon Johnson.</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Julius Lester Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 2 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two, three. You answered the first three questions, so I think we might go right in the order of the questions that I sent you. I do not know if you have them in front of you. JL (00:00:15): I do not, but I can certainly... SM (00:00:20): I can just read them. JL (00:00:21): Sure. Yeah. You can go ahead. SM (00:00:23): Yeah. My first question is, in your own words, could you describe what the impact was of the Montgomery Bus Boycott in terms of it had not only on African Americans in the South, but basically, the impact it had overall in the movement? JL (00:00:44): Well, historically, there is a gap between when the Montgomery Bus Boycott happened and the movement itself. The Montgomery Bus Boycott happened in (19)56, (19)57 as I recall. And the impact at the time was not that great. There were no demonstrations or anything that followed that. I certainly think the impact was one of... Interesting that it happened. This was different, but no action happened. The next action that happened was... There was a sit-in at a lunch counter in Oklahoma City in 1959. And once again, this was something that happened, but nothing followed it. And then in February in 1960, the sit-in happened at a lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina. And for whatever historical reasons that lunch counter sit in, set off a series of demonstrations and sit-ins in Nashville. And within months it spread all across the south. And so why that happened in 1960 and it did not happen in (19)57 after Montgomery, (19)59 after Oklahoma City, nobody knows. But that was the progression of it. And so, Montgomery was certainly very important both in attacking interrogation on the buses as well as introducing Martin Luther King Jr. and non-violence. But I think at the time, people took a wait and see attitude and just kind of wanted to take in exactly what is this, what is happening, and it is something worth counting on. And by 1960 people felt that it was. SM (00:02:55): Yeah, the boomer generation... I think higher education is the reason why they break these terms down like the greatest generation, the boomer generation, generation X, millennials, and now generation Y. And I know a lot of my interviewees have not liked the terms of trying to define a generation with a term because there is too many different people. But as it is defined, it is those born between (19)46 and (19)64. And so my question is really those individuals who grew up knowing the following African American names due to their presence on television or in the newspapers, could you just give your very brief comments, because there is quite a few here, what their impact was with respect to not only the lack but white communities and bringing equality to people of color. You could either talk about their strengths or weaknesses or their activism. Just very brief comments. Roy Wilkins of the NAACP. JL (00:03:55): Yeah. Well, NAACP was certainly the oldest civil rights organization having started about 1909 I guess it was. And so, it was a pretty mainstream organization and that certainly when the more radical activities of the 1960s began, our Wilkins was opposed to it. But interestingly enough of other organizations from the 1960s, the only one remaining is NAACP. And so that certainly as a mainstream organization, it has been very important not only on the legal front, but also in terms of... And what I mean by a legal front, I mean bringing suits, especially where school interrogation was involved, but also just in its ability to last, to endure. SM (00:04:53): How about James Farmer and CORE? JL (00:04:57): Yeah, I have a list in front of me so I can just go down it. SM (00:04:59): Okay. Very good. JL (00:05:01): James Farmer, CORE, was Commerce of Racial Equality, and it was started in the 1940s and the Freedom Rides of 1961 were started by CORE. CORE started off as a much more mainstream organization with a real commitment to non-violence. And then as the 1960s progressed CORE became more and more radical and pretty much radicalized itself out of the existence. James Farmer was head of the organization during the early 1960s, and especially during the Freedom Rise in 1961. Whitney Young and the Urban League. The Urban League is an organization, which still exist, and its focus has always been much more in terms of employment issues in the black community. And Whitney Young was the head of that organization in the 1960s and died in the mid (19)60s in a drowning accident in Africa. Martin Luther King Jr. of course, he was very familiar with SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with the organization that he organized and was very important in terms of organizing demonstrations throughout the South in the 1960s. Robert Moses was a member of SNCC, the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, which I belonged to. And Bob Moses was a graduate of Harvard in mathematics, I believe it was. And he went to Mississippi in the early 1960s and very courageous. He essentially worked by himself in some of the worst places in Mississippi trying to get people to a vote. And he's kind of the legendary figure in the movement. John Lewis was one of the leaders of SNCC in the early 1960s and is now a congressman from Georgia. Julian Bond was a member NAACP in the... We have the past 10 years or so... Was a member of SNCC and if anyone has seen the documentary Eyes on the Prize, it is Julian Bond's voice that narrates that. James Meredith was Black man who was a marine veteran who integrated... Was the first black student in University of Mississippi, an event which set off riots in Oxford, Mississippi and President Kennedy had to nationalize the National Guard and call in the Marines. And I guess three people who were killed. James Meredith later became a very arch conservative. SM (00:08:01): Yeah, that is a shocker. JL (00:08:03): Yeah, he is an interesting fellow shall we say. Ralph Bunch was a US representative of the United Nations and played a part in the United Nations recognizing Israel in 1948. Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph were labor leaders and Bayard Rustin was very important and influential with Dr. King. He was the one who really introduced Dr. King to non-violent and played a behind the scenes role with Dr. King until he was associated with the Communist Party, and he was also gay. And so that he was kind of quietly ushered out of King's Circle. A. Philip Randolph was a labor leader who organized the union of Pullman car Porters on the railroad back in the 1930s and forties I guess it was. And the very first march on Washington. The idea of the march on Washington came about when in 1941, Randolph threatened President Roosevelt with a march on Washington, and I forget what his threat was, whether it had to do with the integration of Washington DC or the integration of armed forces, but it was something along that line which Randolph threatened a march on Washington if they did not come about. And the threat was enough to bring about whatever it was that he was fighting for. Mackenzie was head of CORE at one point. Vernon Jordan was head of the Urban League at one point and is a very high-powered Washington lawyer now and is a very, very close confidant of Bill Clinton. And when Bill Clinton goes to Mount Luther Vineyard, he stays with Vernon Jordan and Dorothy Height was head of the National Negro Council of Women, I believe it was. And she and Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young and several others were known as the Big Six Negro leaders they were called at that time. Stokely Carmichael was head of SNCC, was someone whom I knew. He was the one who introduced to America the term 'Black power'. H. Rap Brown, whom I also knew was head of SNCC after Stokely was head of SNCC. And Rap was much more into radical violence, even though Stokely was too. But Rap was a little bit more serious about it then Stokely was, [inaudible]or that was my impression, and Rap coined the sentence, "Violence is as American as cherry pie." Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver were founders of the Black Panther party. Kathleen Cleaver was Kathleen Neil and was a member of SNCC, and I knew her at that time. And then she met Eldridge and married Eldridge, and they were all very prominent in the Black Panther party. Muhammad Ali. of course, Cassius Clay play a very important figure in terms of his resistance to the war in Vietnam and refusing to fight in Vietnam. And another example of the importance that athletes took, I played in the Civil rights movement starting with Joe Lewis really, and then Jackie Robinson certainly. And Muhammad Ali is certainly always reviewed for that. SM (00:12:09): And Kurt Flood too. Definitely. JL (00:12:14): Fred Hampton was a member of the Black Panther Party in Chicago who was killed by the police. David Hilliard was also a Black Panther party member. George Jackson was... My memory of the details on George Jackson are limited. I did review his book for the New York Times, but he was killed attempting to escape from San Quentin. He became kind of an iconic figure for Black Panther party people, but my memory on him is vague. Angela Davis was associated with George Jackson and at one time was wanted by the FBI for armed activities or something, and later caught in the northern California system. Bobby Seal, Black Panther party member. Jesse Jackson identified himself as the successor to Martin Luther King Jr. Minister from Chicago ran for president in 1984. And the first Black person to make a credible run for president. Andrew Young was a very close associate of Martin Luther King Jr. And was mayor of Atlanta for a couple of terms at least. Ralph Abernathy was a minister who was Dr. King's closest friend. They had known each other since they both [inaudible] in Montgomery. Paul Robeson, the singer and actor, 1920s and 1930s. Very, very radical for his time associated with the Communist Party and went into exile for a number of years and lived in East Germany for a number of years. And I did meet him once shortly after he came back from East Germany. James Balman, who was a friend, was a very important writer. And his most important book came up in... Guess it was 1964, The Fire Next Time, which was two essays that really kind of captured the feelings of anger that were going through significant parts of Black America at the time. And certainly Paul, read the move correctly in terms of the predictions of violence that the book expressed. Thurgood Marshall, who was a lawyer for the NAACP Legal and Defense Fund, who argued the Brown vs Topeka case before the Supreme Court that led to the school desegregation decision in 1954. And he himself later became a Supreme Court Justice appointed, I think by Lyndon Johnson. Roy Innis was probably the last leader of CORE and the one who basically presided over its demise. Adam Clayton Powell was a very flamboyant congressman from Harlem for many, many years and was very important civil rights figure in terms of his willingness to speak out in very, very forceful terms, especially in the 1950s. It is when I remember him at a time when nobody black was really speaking out and Adam Clayton Powell certainly did. LeRoi Jones, Amiri Baraka, is a poet and dramatist Leroy Jones, when he was known as a poet most associated with the beat generation. And then he underwent a radical change and identified himself totally with Black issues and black nationalism. And so, he changed his name to Amiri Baraka and lived in Newark, New Jersey and still lives there. And then Richard Wright was the very important novelist who once again articulated, this is in the 1940s, I guess it was, when both Black Boy and Native Son came out and certainly articulated the violence that laid dormant in the emotions of Black American shall say at that time. And he later went into exile and moved to Paris where he died in the early (19)60s. SM (00:16:58): That is excellent description of all those gentlemen. And Dr. Hight. Number six here is really a listing of events. I do not have to read them all over here, but these were major events that really not only made front page news, but really were somewhat shocking to many in America. And it kind of awakened even white America about what was going on in the south. The Schwerner, Chaney, Goodman murders were, I know big front page when I was a little kid. And your thoughts on all these events in terms of how major they were in awakening this nation to the terrible things that were happening in the United States, of which I believe was totally hidden by the media, because if you look at black and white TV in the (19)50s, you hardly ever saw a person of color with the exception Nat King Cole. I think he had a six-week television show during that time period. JL (00:18:03): Yeah. SM (00:18:03): And then Amos and Andy had a show in their early (19)50s, which was kind of slapstick, and then you really did not have anything until you had Ice Spy and Diane Carroll on the nurse program and there was a big gap there, a lot of hidden things. Just your thoughts on these events. JL (00:18:22): Well, Emmett Till was 14, 15 years old and was from Chicago and was visiting his grandfather in Money Mississippi and was accused of whistling at the wife of a white store owner. And he was murdered very, very violently, very, very viciously murdered. His murder had a great impact upon young Black people my age because I was a bit older than Emmett Till. And that certainly it was one of those events that really create a lot of anger in those of us who later would go on to be the generation of the civil rights movement. And so here was a similar event for us, what it was for White America, I have no idea, but certainly Jet Magazine, the mother of Emmett Till had his body photographed and the pictures were published of his body in a Jet magazine or Black Magazine, weekly magazine. And it really, really had an enormous impact. And it certainly had some impact on White America because Bob Dylan wrote a song called The Death of Emmett Till, which was on his first album in the early (19)60s. The church bombing certainly in Birmingham in (19)63 that killed the four girls had a great impact because the march on Washington was at the end of August of 1963, and the church bombing came about three weeks later, about the third week of September. And so that church bombing should follow both closely on the heels of the march on Washington did get a lot of publicity and had a great impact, certainly. And I think it was the event that led President Kennedy... It was the event that led President Kennedy to introduce the Civil rights bill of 1964 into Congress, and no, Lyndon Johnson, I am sorry, Kennedy was not there at that time. It was Lyndon Johnson. And so that had a great impact on America nationwide. James Meredith, 1966, June of (19)66, Meredith was going to do a march against Fear, and he was going to walk from Memphis, Tennessee down to the state of Mississippi, and he got a few miles outside of Memphis, and he was shot, not killed, but he was wounded. But that led to others taking up the march. And it was on that march that Stokely Carmichael first used the phrase 'Black power'. SM (00:21:15): Wow, I did not know that. Wow. JL (00:21:19): And so that certainly got national attention. Delmont 1965 was really what galvanized the... It was after Selma that Lyndon Johnson introduced the 1965 voting white bill, and it was the march that we were going to march to. Well, I mean, the background was basically... There had been a young black man named... What was his name? Jimmie Lee Jackson, who had been murdered, at a demonstration for voting rights. And so the people wanted to march from Stalman to the capital in Montgomery to protest to the governor. And so, the first attempt of the march was met with a lot of violence by men on horseback and this, that and the other. And so subsequently, there was a march that was protected by federal troops. And so, the federal Montgomery March was very important in terms of the eventual passage of the 1965 voting right bill. The murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner, 1964. Chaney was black and Goodman and Schwerner were both white Jewish from New York City. I knew the families of both Goodman and Schwerner, and they were murdered, and their bodies were not found. They were murdered in June. Their bodies were not found until August. And that certainly their murder came at the beginning of the Mississippi or Freedom Summer. And the Freedom Summer was when it was almost a thousand, basically mainly white college students went to Mississippi to register people to vote, and for the summer to begin with their disappearance certainly was an indication that going to Mississippi was a very, very dangerous thing to do that summer. And so certainly their murders were publicized in the nation certainly. It was an important event in terms of focusing the attention of the nation on Mississippi and segregation in Mississippi and just generally the atmosphere of violence against Black people in Mississippi. I mean, it was really a terrorist state as far as I am concerned. I was there before, and it eventually led to significant changes in how delegates were chosen to the Democratic Party. And so, the Democratic Party at that time, which had been controlled primarily about Southern democrats, changed after the summer of (19)64. And so subsequently, the Democratic Party was much more... Became much liberal and much more open than it had been previously. The Freedom Rides were 1961... At that time, it was black and white could not sit together on buses that were leaving the South. When I left Nashville, Tennessee in 1961, I had to sit in the back of the bus until the bus got to a Northern state, and then I could sit anywhere on the bus. And so, the Freedom Rides were to basically enforce the law, which already said that the segregated seating on interstate buses was unconstitutional. And so, the Freedom Rides started in Washington, DC and were going to end in New Orleans, they were organized by CORE, but they did not get any further than Mississippi. When they got to Jackson, Mississippi, people were arrested and put in jail. And so that led to people from all over the country getting on buses and going to the Mississippi and being arrested and going to jail. Before that, the people on the buses had met a lot of violence in both Birmingham, Alabama and Montgomery Alabama. And that also did get a fair share of publicity. But after that summer, there was no more segregation on interstate buses. The murder of Malcolm X 1965, February (19)65. At that particular time, one of the things that may be hard for people to grasp is that both during the lifetime of Malcolm and during the lifetime of Dr. King, they were not the heroic figures they are looked up on to be now. I can certainly recall the New York Times coming out with editorial against Martin Luther King and accusing him of throwing up violent by non-violent demonstrations. And so certainly with Malcolm X, Malcolm X at the time of his death was a minor figure, believe it or not. He was really not that well known outside the black community. And he was certainly seen as somebody who was extremely violent and what have you. And so, there were no tears lost, shed at the death of Malcolm X. And like I said, he is much, much more widely known and revered, and I think he's even been on a stamp than he was during his lifetime. And so, his assassination had little impact compared to the impact of Kings assassination. King’s assassination, certainly there were riots in New York City. There were riots in other places around the country because certainly even though King at that time was preparing the march on Washington, he had come out against the war in Vietnam and was really becoming a lot more radical in his thinking and in his actions in terms of trying to build a coalition of a multi-ethnic coalition as well as a coalition that would involve economic coalition also for whites and for people and what have you, not so, but his assassination certainly set off a great reaction both of violence and of creep at the time. The Little Rock Nine, 1957, I guess we are talking, were black students who integrated at Central High school and [inaudible] had to be escorted in by the National Guard, which Eisenhower nationalized at the time because the governor basically refused to let the students in. There was some violence around that, and that was one of the first events that was covered on television. John Chancellor, who was later an Anchor Man for NBC, covered that for NBC, and that was shown on television and did get a fair amount of publicity. George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door, this was the 1963, I guess it was, the integration of the rest of Alabama, and George Wallace made this show a pending in the entrance of the administration building, but it was all a show for his constituents because a deal had been worked out with the Kennedy administration where he was standing in the door. While he was standing in the door, federal marshals were escorting... Now, there were two students, Vivian Malone, and I forget the... I cannot think of the young man's name, but anyway, while he was standing in the front door, federal marshals were escorting the Black students in the back door for them to be registered into school. And so, he did that for show. It had no impact upon them getting into school whatsoever. He did not stop them from getting into school. SM (00:30:18): This is important because I know you bring it up in your book, one of your books, that we talk about the tragedies here, but we never talk about... It is like when Dr. King used to give speeches, he used to say that we all have it within us as individuals to bring change to this world, bring justice to the world. And so, it was the people that we never hear about, the people that... And it is the same thing here. We might emphasize Dr. King or Malcolm, and certainly the tragedy of Emmett Till, but there were 4,000 people as you brought up in your book, who were murdered, who were lynched. And this is something that I still think our students today are not aware of or do not seem to...still think our students today are not aware of, or do not seem to have an understanding. JL (00:31:06): Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Basically, starting after the Civil War, and especially after 1877, when federal troops left the South and the Reconstruction era ended, there began a campaign of terror against Black people carried out by the Ku Klux Klan, and then the local communities, of murdering people, often by hanging them from a tree, lynching them, as a way both of terrorizing the black community, and intimidating anyone who had any thought of doing anything, political, voting, or what have you. People were lynched quite often on trumped-up charges of rape, very few of which could have been proven. They were also lynched if they owned a prosperous store. The reasons why you could be lynched were almost infinite. It reminds me of the summer of (19)64 in Jackson, Mississippi, a civil rights worker was arrested for reckless walking, and so they could make up any charges they wanted. SM (00:32:33): Oh, my gosh. JL (00:32:34): And certainly, from about 1880 until 1970, I guess, the last... Well, no, we got to go into the nineties. There were lynchings in the nineties, but certainly close to 5,000 Black people, both men, and there were women also who were lynched, were lynched in the South. And Congress, the Senate passed a resolution a few years ago, apologizing for the fact that even though the NAACP tried every year from 1919 forward to get the Congress to pass a federal law against lynching, so that lynchers could be arrested and tried in federal court at least, Congress never did it. And so, the Senate did issue an apology for not doing what it should have done for all those years. SM (00:33:35): I know right here, and you may be aware of it, in, I think it is Coatesville, Pennsylvania, the murder of... They actually put a historic sign up a couple of years ago. It was torn down and they put it up again. And we are talking about, I forget, the professor from Franklin and Marshall came over and talked about it, but it was... There was one in the 1940s as a follow-up to this one that they were putting the marker up for. It is a terrible tragedy, and people were saying, "This happened here?" One thing that is very important, you talk about the March on Washington. We all know that Kennedy was very pragmatic with respect to, he was worried about what could happen in the city. And A. Philip Randolph, I think he trusted more than any of the other leaders. But there is a comment that, and I'd just like your thoughts here from your book, however, respond to your criticism that the March is a great inspiration to those who think something is accomplished by having black bodies next to white bodies. JL (00:34:48): At the time, and I remember the March on Washington vividly. My wife went to it, I did not. And I thought it was really a publicity thing. I thought it was good public relations. I did not see what else it would accomplish. And certainly, the fact that the four girls were bombed, were killed less than a month after it kind of confirmed my opinion at the time. Well, I was just never impressed with the March on Washington. I thought King's speech was great, but I just saw it as a PR thing. I did not see it as effective politics. SM (00:35:27): Yeah, the quote that you have here was, "The march was nothing but a giant therapy session that allowed Dr. King to orate about his dreams of..." I do not even like to use the word, the N word, "Eating at the same table of a Georgia cracker, while most blacks just dreamed of eating." JL (00:35:44): Yep-yep, yep. I would not repudiate those words now. SM (00:35:53): In your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed moment? JL (00:36:01): Well, I would certainly say probably February 1960. And I would probably say that they ended with the death of King. I think King was the center, and when the center was not there, things fell apart. And actually, I would say, well, I will back up from that. I will say that the Civil Rights Movement had two goals, and the two goals were to integration, and public accommodation, and to ensure the right of Black people to vote. And those were accomplished in 1964 and 1965. And I would say the Civil Rights Movement ended in of 1965 with it fulfilling its goals. And I think one of the unfortunate things is that we never celebrated that we won. And so (19)65, the Civil Rights Movement ended. (19)66, you had the beginning of Black power, and certainly the mood turns much angrier, and there is much more rhetoric of violence and actual violence with the coming of the Black Panther Party. And then (19)68 King, and also the rise of Black nationalism also comes (19)65, (19)66, and then King is killed in (19)68, and certainly things are done by then. SM (00:37:33): Yeah. Actually, this bleeds right into question eight and nine on the second page there, is if you could describe the strengths and weaknesses of the activists who believed in the philosophy of Gandhi, that nonviolence is the only way to protest. And secondly, the change that took place, the strengths and weaknesses of activists who believed that going beyond nonviolence, via either armed confrontation, or burning buildings, or tougher talk, or being more aggressive, which these individuals are labeled. I know that Bobby Seale has said over and over again that, "We were not violent." I have seen him talk many times. He said, "We had guns to protect ourselves," he says that "but we never used them." Now, I do not know what your thoughts... So, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of these two approaches? Because these are the people that- JL (00:38:24): Well, the strength of non-violence was very, very effective as long as it was used against very recognizable institutions, segregated lunch counters, and things of that sort. The weakness of nonviolence is that racism does not exist in a concrete building where with the sign on it saying, " No coloreds allowed." Racism is so much more amorphous and resides in the spirits and the minds of people. And that is very difficult for non-violence to attack. The strengths of the Black radical movement was- certainly was that it was a movement aimed at changing the consciousness, number one, probably, of Black people, which is something that began with Malcolm X, beginning to change the consciousness of how Black people thought about themselves. And then also changing how Black people thought about white people and changing how white people thought about themselves. The weakness of the Black radical movement, despite what Bobby Seale says, is that if there is anything America knows about, its violence. And if you present an image of dressed in a black beret and black turtleneck and black pants and a black leather jacket carrying a rifle to white America, they know how to deal with that. And so that even though the Black Panthers may never have fired a gun, which I doubt very, very seriously, they certainly were what Lenin called agent provocateurs, and so they certainly provoked violence. And I spoke out against the Black Panther Party at the time, and I continue to speak up against them now. SM (00:40:40): Would you put the Weather Underground who split from SDS? JL (00:40:46): Yeah, I would- SM (00:40:47): As well as the Brown Berets that followed the Chicanos, who followed the Black Panthers in the same boat? JL (00:40:53): The Brown Berets, I really know nothing about, but certainly the Weather Underground, they were well-intentioned, but that certainly the way to attack America, the way to change America, is not through violence, because that is what America's good at, is violence. SM (00:41:21): I put the AIM leaders in there too, because the AIM went from Alcatraz in 1969 to Wounded Knee in (19)73. JL (00:41:30): Yeah, once again, I really do not know enough for about AIM, about the details of what happened at Wounded Knee to really talk about it. The other thing, which is really hard to get someone to understand, is that 1968 was an amazing year in terms of all the things that were happening in the country, and certainly, a lot of people believed that we were on the verge of a revolution, and that was people both in the government, as well as people on the left. And so, while it is easy to look back and criticize the Weather Underground, at the time, it certainly seemed like that it was going to be possible to bring about revolutionary change in this country. SM (00:42:28): Do you like the term Boomer Generation, and if not, what would be a better term to describe it? JL (00:42:36): It is not my generation. I have no opinion one way or the other. SM (00:42:40): But you know something Julius, can I call you Julius? JL (00:42:45): Yeah, you may. SM (00:42:45): Yep. One of the things that is interesting, because I think you found in the same category, is many of the people that were born in that period between say 1937 and (19)45, feel that they are more closer to the boomers, the front edge boomers, than those that were the last 10 years of the boomers. Because if you are in graduate school in the early (19)70s, we were taught that the leaders of the movement were usually people that were the graduate students, that were in their late twenties, which means they were born in that timeframe. So, in a sense, a lot of the people that are your age claim that they really have the boomer spirit, and I have noticed that. I do not know if you feel that, but you were a very important part of that spirit. JL (00:43:26): Yeah, I do not, and I do not because I feel like, well... I was born and was, I guess, seven years old when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. SM (00:43:49): Yes. JL (00:43:50): And I consider that to be a watershed event in world history. And I think there is a difference. For me, there is a difference between whether one was born before that happened, and whether one was born after that happened. The difference being whether you grew up believing, knowing that the world could be destroyed by the dropping of certain kinds of bombs, and whether you reached an age of consciousness without knowing the world could be destroyed. SM (00:44:23): Wow. Very well- JL (00:44:24): And so, for me, that is a big difference. Also growing up with radio, as opposed to growing up with television, is also, to me, a big difference. And so, I do not see myself as part of the Boomer generation at all. SM (00:44:44): Please describe in a few words your role with SNCC as an organization photographer. I know you were assigned to cover a lot of the events and activities. I know you went with Stokely to Vietnam during that timeframe. JL (00:44:58): I went with him to Cuba, not to Vietnam. SM (00:45:00): Oh, okay. Cuba, my mistake. JL (00:45:03): Yeah. I went to Vietnam separately from him, but I was in Cuba with him. SM (00:45:11): Yeah. Could you discuss some of the events you covered, and what did you learn from that experience that you maybe did not know before you were that photographer? JL (00:45:19): Well, my role in SNCC was very modest. I came into SNCC in 1966 as a photographer. And by that time, the demonstrations and the voter registration campaigns were over. I did photograph, there was a riot in Atlanta in 1966, I photographed that. There was the riot in Newark in 1967, which I also photographed. But primarily my role in SNCC was to, number one, write and produce materials using the photographs. And so, I produced calendars using the photographs, and other materials, publications, that SNCC did. Also, when I was with SNCC, I also wrote my first book when I was living in Atlanta with SNCC, which was Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama. I wrote during the winter of 1966, I guess it was, (19)67. I was also a folk singer in those years. And so, I went to Cuba for a protest song festival. And the first day I was there, unbeknownst to me, Stokely showed up in Cuba. And so, I switched from the protest song festival to live with Stokely and go around with him. So, because of that, I got to spend three days traveling through the mountains in Eastern Cuba. I wanted to talk to Stokely, and so we spent three days traveling around the Sierra Maestras. SM (00:47:13): Wow. JL (00:47:17): And that was fascinating. That really was fascinating. And then also that year, I spent a month in North Vietnam. The Burton Russell Foundation had organized a war crime tribunal to be held in Stockholm, Sweden, the spring of (19)66, (19)67. And so, two people were sent from SNCC, myself and Charlie Cobb were sent from SNCC to get a testimony. This was during a time when the US was still denying it was bombing North Vietnam. And so, we ended up spending a month in North Vietnam, and I did a lot of photographing in North Vietnam, showing the United States was very definitely lying about bombing, since I was certainly very close to a bombing raid on more than one occasion when I was there. SM (00:48:05): Well, did you ever see Che Guevara? JL (00:48:05): Never did. Che Guevara was already in Bolivia when I was in Cuba. SM (00:48:06): Oh, okay. Yeah, because he was a hero to many of the new left students, particularly many of the ones that were in Columbia in (19)68. This next question is basically centered on the students who came south, the white students. And it is amazing. The majority of them, I believe were Jewish, because I am amazed. When I talk to everybody, the Jewish background, I know there were some Catholic white students as well, but there were a thousand that went south. And just your thoughts on them, in terms of their overall impact. And we all know that Mario Savio, he was not Jewish, but he was one of those students who went back to Berkeley and tried to hand out literature. And that is when all that stuff happened, and the free speech movement started because of it, because they were recruiting students to go south. And I know that Tom Hayden was another one who had been south, and others had gone back to recruit on college campuses. And there was also that period of time when there was a question over who was leading the organizations. And was there sensitivity within the Freedom Summer that African Americans instead of whites do the running of the events? JL (00:49:34): Oh, yeah. There was... Well, how can I put it? Most people in SNCC were opposed to Freedom Summer. They did not want all these white kids going to Mississippi. They also recognized that they had been working in Mississippi for three years. And again, very-very little publicity. People had been beaten and put in jail and close to being killed, a couple of them. And so, they also recognize that a thousand white students coming to Mississippi would bring publicity. One of the real ironies of all of this is that I think I mentioned before, both the Schwerner and Goodman families were friends of mine, and I was friends with Andrew, Mickey Schwerner's brother, and was talking with him that Spring of (19)64, and he said, "What needs to happen is for one of those white kids to get killed." And of course, not knowing that one of those white kids was going to be his kid brother. And so, that certainly, there was a recognition that they will bring the newspapers and the publicity will come with them. And so, the state was split up into congressional districts, and there was at least one congressional district where the SNCC leader who was head of the project in that district would not allow white students to work in his district. And so that certainly, there was a tension between who is running the show, and certainly I, myself, witnessed a certainly unintentional insensitivity on the part of some of the white students in terms of working with blacks, because they simply were not aware of the social dynamics, and what have you. And so certainly there was tension, and certainly the SNCC people involved made a great effort to stay in control and to give the orders. And it was a success politically, but internally, it was not a happy summer. SM (00:52:09): Yeah. I remember one of the leaders of the trainers was Staughton Lynd. JL (00:52:18): Yep. SM (00:52:18): And I guess they trained up north, and then they went south. So, did they have issues even with him being a trainer? JL (00:52:25): I do not think so, no. Staughton was real well respected. No, there is not a question about that. SM (00:52:28): Yep. Would you compare the... thirteen, there. Would you compare the SDS in the late (19)60s with its change from, we talked about earlier, about going more radical, to the SNCC and the same time period because we saw Stokely go from SNCC to more of a black power, more radical attitude. And just your thoughts on that. And some of the members of the... I think H. Rap Brown was in SNCC, and then he went to the Black Panthers. So, would you see the switches happening around the same time for those organizations? JL (00:53:05): Oh yeah. They were. And certainly, I think it had to do with a progression of political learning, going from thinking that the problem was segregation and lack of voting rights to a recognition that the problem was really systemic, and that the systemic part of it for Black people was racism. The systemic part of it for SDS was capitalism. So, it was like, how do you demonstrate? You do not demonstrate against racism; you cannot demonstrate against capitalism. You really have to change them. And so, the way to change them is through revolution. And so, people became much more doctrinaire, and that was certainly a lot of the reason for the downfall of both SDS and SNICC at that time. H. Rap Brown, Rap took on the title of Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party, but he never worked actively with the Black Panther Party. And I was close to Rap during this time. And so, he did that more as a... I am not sure how to describe it, but he did that more as a listening kind of a thing. He really never worked actively with the Black Panthers. SM (00:54:50): I am actually going to be interviewing Ed, E. Charles Brown, his brother. JL (00:54:55): Oh, yeah? SM (00:54:56): Yeah, sometime in the next three, four weeks. I guess Ed has had a stroke, but he's okay. And Ed, I want the story. He was very close to his brother, and it really had an effect on his health, I guess, the loss of his brother, to going to jail out west, and so forth. And he firmly believed that H Rap Brown was set up, and he did not kill that person. It is a total set up. So, I am looking forward to my interview with Ed. JL (00:55:26): Yeah. SM (00:55:27): In your eyes, how important were the Beats in terms of creating what I call an anti-establishment feeling in the (19)60s? We all know about Alan Ginsburg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Ferlinghetti, Leroy Jones, Gary Snyder. We all know that the Beats were very important in their writing, and people were reading them. But they were not large in number, and they were based in San Francisco and New York, in the Village. And we know the Bohemian lifestyle affected a lot of it. How did it affect the African American community? JL (00:56:02): Very little. Certainly, Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon me for the positive. And I certainly saw myself as part of the Beat Generation. Ended up spending the summer of (19)59 in San Francisco on North Beach specifically, because that is where it was happening, and that is where I wanted to be. But the Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon the hippies. The hippies came from the Beat Generation. And from the hippies, you go to Abbey Hoffman and Jerry Ruben and that whole group. And so, the Beat Generation had an enormous impact on the (19)60s through their impact on the hippies. But in terms of Black America, very little impact. SM (00:56:59): Let me change my tape here. Got to turn it over. How is your weather? JL (00:57:06): Today is warm, supposed to be a cold month. SM (00:57:13): Has not been melting the last three days. Well, anyway. JL (00:57:21): We have so much snow on the ground. It will be green, maybe, for a dog gone, unless we hit some 90 degree temperatures in here. It has been a miserable, miserable winter. SM (00:57:26): Oh, yeah. We are expecting snow on the weekend here. So, what were the writings, what were the books that you were reading in the (19)50s and (19)60s? What were the books that had the best... And obviously you are a great writer, but before you became that writer, what were you reading? JL (00:58:09): Well, certainly in our (19)50s, early (19)60s, I was reading, I was reading Kerouac, and I was reading Ginsburg, Henry Miller, D. H. Lawrence, Aldous Huxley, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Thomas Merton. Those were some of the people I was reading in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. SM (00:58:17): In the area of the Civil Rights Movement, and certainly in the anti-war movement, a lot has been written that the women's movement was a direct result of the sexism that took place within both of those historic movements. Your thoughts on that, because I know we had a program within our university that if Dr. King was sitting on the stage today, the first thing they would ask him is, "Why were you such a sexist?" So just your thoughts on the women's role in the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war movement, and the importance of, that is the one of the why the women's movement was created. JL (00:59:01): Well, I do not know that I am qualified to talk about that, because it was not something which... I think it is more complicated than people have talked about. It is not as clear cut as people have talked about, and it is just not something I want to talk about. SM (00:59:48): Yeah. I will make just one other comment, and that is, when you look at that March on Washington in (19)63, the only person you see a female, there is Dorothy Height standing to the right, and Mahalia Jackson, who sang, so that is been brought up. The Generation Gap, obviously a very big thing in the (19)60s. The Generation Gap was the differences between parents and students on culture, and certainly the counterculture. Certainly, they are staying on the war in Vietnam, or could have been on any of the movements itself. Was there a generation gap that in the African American community too, between parents and... Because when I talk the Boomer generation years, I am trying... Boomer generation to me, includes everyone, includes all seventy... The question is whether it is (19)74 to (19)79, I do not think we even know how many million we are talking about here, but the generation gap was very important because of the differences between parents and their children. Were there differences in the African American communities? JL (01:00:54): There were differences until the children got arrested. When the children got arrested, there was no more generation gap. The parents... I remember very clearly in Nashville, when the sit-ins happened, and the first arrest happened. The elder generation had been leery up until the point when the first arrest happened. The older generation provided support, food, money, what have you. And within the Black community, there was the generation gap comes later with the more cultural things. When the Afros come in and the wearing dashikis come in, and you have more of a generation gap over the style. But in terms of the politics itself, there was no generation gap. SM (01:01:54): In your book, Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama, the next part is basically just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay? JL (01:02:02): Sure. SM (01:02:02): I think we are just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay? JL (01:02:03): Sure. SM (01:02:04): First off, on number eight then, when you wrote the book, it was right in the middle of one of the most tumultuous times in the (19)60s. Of course, (19)68 is a noun because of all the tragic things you already talked about that happened, including the two major assassinations and what we saw at the Democratic Convention and actually tech, and so a lot of things. But to me, and this is me personally who had read it many years back, to me, this book is really a great description of the times and the divisions between Black and white, plus the feelings of people of color felt toward America that did not care about all its citizens. Could you comment on the following? I am just putting this here for the record. [inaudible] identified with a poor, the spies, the downtrodden, the humiliated. It was different from the students’ citizens in 1960 where people had to dress up in suits and ties to prove they were clean. Now, it is changing where the workers' dress fits the people they were helping through overalls and so forth. Just your thoughts on these changes because the approach that young African Americans took towards the protests at different times, making sure that the people that they were representing felt comfortable with how they looked. JL (01:03:27): Yes, correct. I think it is smart politics. You change your approach depending upon whom you are, what you are working for, and yeah. So, I think it was smart politics. I mean, certainly in the 1960s, early (19)60s with the sit-in movement, it was very, very important to get dignified. And although it was not much a matter of clean as it much was a matter of appearing non-threatening, put it that way. And looking no different than any well-dressed white person. And so certainly in terms of creating an image for the movement, it was the right industry to protect. And then when you begin working-working in a rural area in the south, both practically, it is impractical to go around in a suit and a tie and what have you. And also, you want the people with whom you are trying to organize to be comfortable with you. And so that-that is what some people do. If they were able to be in overalls, I never did felt the need to do that. Never felt that I could not do what I was there to do. Just by guessing like I normally did, and I normally did not wear suit and tie, and I normally did not wear overalls either. So, I think it is a matter of simply being a good organizer. SM (01:05:12): In the marching of Washington (19)63, I think Stokely was right on. But your thoughts on this that, and I just interviewed George Houser a couple of days ago, and I interviewed Elizabeth Lasch-Quinn too about her dad, Christopher Lasch, and we talked about the fact that the Civil Rights Movement was centered on the moral compass. And Stokely said, this is a quote "politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand moral action to fit the rhetoric", is what Stokely said. This was certainly true when John Lewis had to remove one line from a speech that said, "I want you to know which side the federal government is on". I find that prophetic, but just your words and the fact that with John Kennedy and why he eventually allowed the march, it is number one. And in Stokely's comments about it should be strictly about the morality. JL (01:06:15): I am not sure what you are asking me. SM (01:06:18): I am asking you what are your thoughts on Stokely's comments that politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand more action to fit the rhetoric, is what he said. JL (01:06:29): Yeah. Honestly, I am not sure I understand what Stokely said. What he said does not make total sense to me. And I guess I disagree with it. Yeah, I guess I am much more on the side of the rhetoric and the moral action being one and the same. And so, I do not know that I agree with what Stokely said. SM (01:07:04): This is another important thing too, because I grew up in Ithaca, New York area, and I can remember when Dr. King went to Cicero and all the, well, first off, the hatred up in the Chicago area toward Dr. King, but also the real divisions that were taking place within the Civil rights leadership about his decision to go north when Robert wanted to stay south. And you bring this up talking about the fact that segregation was an issue up north, and Dr. King knew it. Yet he was criticized for extending protests to the North because many of his peers wanted him to concentrate in the South. And I thought what Malcolm said about everything south of the Canadian border was south. Which I had not heard before and I am glad I reread your book. How important, well, was Dr. King and how heavily criticized was he within his own community for going north? JL (01:07:57): Well, I think the problem was that the tactics that had worked in the South would not work in the North. And so, he could not export the demonstration style approach of civil rights in the north, because the problems were very different. And I know that Dr. King had an apartment on the south side of Chicago, and I guess tried to live there for a time, but his efforts in the north were really a failure. And SNCCs in the North, SNCCs tried to do some things in Philadelphia, and they were also a failure. Malcolm X had much more sense of the temper of the Northern Black communities. CORE was much more of a Northern-based civil rights group and had much more of a sense of what was an effective way to work in the Northern communities than I think SNCCs or Dr. King did. And so, Dr. King I think was criticized because I think there were people who felt there were still a lot to be done in the South, which certainly there was, and he did not know the north. And so, he basically failed when he went north. SM (01:09:29): What did you think of his Vietnam speech? JL (01:09:41): His Vietnam speech was excellent. I thought his Vietnam speech was really a moral high point of his life and career. SM (01:09:43): And I agree. I agree. Can you talk about that? You already made reference to how important was Fannie Lou Hamer and her challenge with Lyndon Johnson in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party in (19)64, but how important really was that in the scheme of things at that time? JL (01:10:00): It was extremely important. The Mississippi Democratic Party was all white, and that basically the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was organized to go to the convention in Atlantic City and appear before the Credentials Committee of the Democratic Party Convention to ask them to unseat the regular representative of the Democratic Party because there was segregation and to seat the MFDP instead. What the Credentials Committee was, it did not unseat the Mississippi Democratic Party, but it did offer two honorary seats to the MFDP, which they turned down. And Mrs. Hamer was very, very critical in all of that because she appeared before the Credentials Committee and her speech was so forceful and so eloquent that it was interrupted by Lyndon Johnson who came on television to make an announcement about something totally irrelevant because he did not want people to see her anymore on television. SM (01:11:18): Yeah, I remember watching TV when that one was happening. I was really into politics when I was a young kid. Again, this is an important quote from you. This is your quote: "if the press had screamed as loudly for the end of segregation and discrimination as it screamed for law and order, segregation would have a vague memory in (19)68. Somehow law and order became all important. Or when Black people take to streets and burn and wipe out a few of the white man's stores, law and order is never so important when the police are whipping N Heads on the weekend." And then you finally say, "law and order must prevail is the cliche of the (19)60s and the biggest lie because the American black man has never known law and order except as an instrument of repression". Any additional thoughts on that or is that? JL (01:12:14): No, I really had not read that in I do not know how many years, but that about summed it up. I mean, I certainly think that placed it pretty directly. SM (01:12:23): You have a way of really writing down. Your book is full of quotes. I could have had a hundred of them here. You are a very good writer, and you really expressed the feelings of the times too in that book. And then as a follow-up here, Ronald Reagan, if you remember, came to power in California under two banners, law, and order to stop the protests on college campus, IE the free speech movement in People's Park. And then, of course, to end the welfare state that he was against. And these were direct attacks on the protests and the welfare state handouts at work. He came to the presidency on those two goals. So, law and order was what Reagan was all about. So, in a sense, when he came to power in the (19)80s... JL (01:13:15): Well, but the law-and-order thing started with Nixon, and I think in the (19)68 election, it was certainly unfortunate that there was so much violence in the streets of Chicago at the Democratic Convention. And it certainly made it seem like the Democratic Party was the party of chaos and disorder. And Nixon campaigned very hard on a law-and-order platform, and we know the results. And so, Reagan was following up on Nixon. Nixon pioneered the law and order. SM (01:13:54): And also, could you describe the changes in the Civil Rights Movement? I think you put it beautifully in the book where you state in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, "we shall overcome" is the real moral, the singing "we shall overcome", and then we go to black and white together, and then we go to black power. So, would you say, just as you state in your book, those are the three shifts? JL (01:14:18): Yes, I would, yeah. SM (01:14:20): When was Black and white together? We all know that, I think, "we shall overcome" was probably up to (19)64, (19)65. JL (01:14:35): Well, "black and white together" was simply one of the versions of "we shall overcome". And so that as long as "we shall overcome" was being sung, "black and white together" was put off in the last verse of "we shall overcome". And so, they were both going on at the same time. Yeah. So "we should overcome", another important song that came out of Mississippi was "freedom is a constant struggle". But I mean, Black power, the chant was "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now". And that certainly had its call, Larry, with the songs of Jim Morrison and The Doors, "we want the world, and we want it now". And so, there was certainly a shift from, I would say, the more patient and the approach that had more respect for political process being slow. And you certainly find that in the cadences of social overcome, which have a slow dignity to it, but then there is that need for immediate gratification that we find, and "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now. And we want the world, and we want it now". And certainly, if I were to say, if there is one thing that characterizes boomers, the culture has inoculated them with the need for hints and gratification. SM (01:16:28): Yeah. Yeah. You just bring up, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of boomers, if you were to look at this? JL (01:16:36): Oh, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear. I am really going to stay away from that completely. SM (01:16:42): Okay. All right. This is another quote. "It does not matter how many Ralph Bunche's, Jackie Robinson's and Martin Luther King's, the white man projects his models of what the meager should be. Blacks will always be more like Little John and Big Red". This was in 1968. How does it apply to 2011 when MLK Day happens, and Jackie Robinson's number 42 is now being recognized in all the baseball parks? Is this more about white men than Black men today? Explain in terms of (19)68 to 2011. JL (01:17:17): Oh boy, there is really no way to. SM (01:17:19): Is that really in a statement just at the times, the feelings, and you may have? JL (01:17:34): I mean, "Big Red" was written off next to us. And Malcolm X. And I do not remember who Little John was, but there is really no comparison between (19)68 and 2011. I mean, in 2011, you have, I do not know how many black millionaires, I mean, when I looked at professional basketball and pro football, I am looking at a bunch of millionaires playing a game, and majority of them are black, and the majority of them are not doing a damn thing with a million dollars to do anything for Black people. And so that what I said in (19)68, is in no way part of 2011. What we have in 2011, what we really have is so far away from the values articulated by King, the kinds of values that Jackie Robinson represented. We have Black athletes and entertainers now who are totally into the culture of conspicuous consumption and a narcissistic culture. And I think it is shameful and disgraceful. With millions that exist in the Black community now and they are spending it all on jewelry and cars and airplanes, and what have you, while people do not have places to live. And it is absolutely absurd. SM (01:19:11): You are so right on this. I wish you would write about this because I can think of one person who has done really good right now, and that is Magic Johnson, because I think Magic, even though he still has the glow of a rich man, he's given a lot back to his community. And that this is a man who understands where he came from in Lansing, Michigan, and he has never forgotten it. And I would also say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is another person who has done unbelievable things. And of course, he is fighting cancer right now, but I would put those two that have done good things. But you are right on the majority. JL (01:19:47): Yeah. SM (01:19:55): And it is upsetting. The last quote I have here is just this one on number 19 here, "whenever a Black man asserts what wife try to put him down, but in the act of self-assertion is not a threat unless whites choose to make it so. Yet they always choose Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali and Adam Clayton Powell are only three examples of Black men that White America wanted lynched. What whites said to them was what has always been said to the Blacks, and you must think you as good as a white man", Stokely said. Now, just you still any comments on that. And then Silky said, hell, I am better. That is kind of Black pride. JL (01:20:39): Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that phrase was, even when liberals said it, "you can be as good as a white person", was always kind of condescending. Given the record of white people, I would want to be better than white people when it comes to a lot of things. I do not know that I have any comment on that now. I do not know whether or not I would have to really speak think whether or not what I wrote then applies now. And that certainly, I mean, you do see it applying when a member of Congress tells the President of the United States when he is making the State of the Union address that you're lying. He would not have said that to a white president. And so that I think it may not be the general rule anymore, it certainly does still apply. And that certainly you would not have the number of- it is so odd that nobody challenged John McCain's citizenship, even though he was born in the Panama Canal, that Barack Obama's citizenship is still being disputed by a lot of people out there. And they simply would not do that if you were white. SM (01:22:17): I guess I had one more quote there, and then just in general, if anyone wonders why the anger of blacks is so often turned upon the white liberal is because, while professing to be a friend, the white liberal has generally turned out to be more white than liberal whenever blacks assert themselves. JL (01:22:34): Yeah. SM (01:22:35): Is that still true or was that (19)68? JL (01:22:38): Well, what is sadly true now is that when Kennedy died, the last liberal died. I do not see white liberals anymore. There is nobody, being from the state of Massachusetts, I certainly love Kennedy and miss Kennedy, because nobody spoke with the passion that he did about liberal causes, and there is nobody left, and that there are no white liberals anymore. SM (01:23:11): So that attack on the, remember there were several books out there, the L word. People were hiding from the L word. If they were hiding from the L word, then they were not really liberals. JL (01:23:21): They are not really liberals. SM (01:23:23): If you are proud to be a liberal, you stand up for being a liberal. And remember too, that in the (19)60s, the anti-war movement was against the liberal Johnson, as well as Richard Nixon. So, there was no liberal, conservative, did not matter. And then whites can never be accepted as allies with Blacks until they get rid of their arrogance, which leads them to think that they are greater authorities on Blacks and Blacks themselves until they stop going to the Daniel Moynihan or come to the ghetto and learn for themselves. Is that your direct relation to the Moynihan report? JL (01:23:57): That was in relationship to the Moynihan Report, but it is also just in general. The attitude certainly was, much more in the (19)60s, of the whites knew better than we did. And so, it was an attitude that said, well, you should go slow. You are trying to go too fast. And certainly, that was the attitude of the New York Times and a lot of the liberal journals of the time about the activities of the Civil Rights Movement. Slow down, be patient, what have you. Well, you know, you are not the ones being discriminated against. And whether or not, I certainly think that attitude has changed a lot, that as Black people, we have asserted our authority over our experience. And I think that for the most part, that is respected these days. So that quote would not apply as much now as it certainly did in 1968. SM (01:25:04): And then you also said something that I think is another. You have got some unbelievable quotes in here. "In Black culture. It is the experience that counts not what is said". That is a quote from you. JL (01:25:18): Yeah. I am not certain. Yeah. Well, I mean, you certainly have me at a disadvantage because you have read the book certainly far more recently than I have. SM (01:25:26): I almost memorized it. It is so good. I wish in graduate school. JL (01:25:35): I am certainly flattered. SM (01:25:35): Well, if I was a professor in graduate school right now, I would require students to read your book because, I am a higher education person, I believe they are not being taught anything about the history of higher education, about what happened back then. It is all about theory, and I am tired of it. JL (01:25:53): Yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah. Yeah. SM (01:25:53): Theory-theory, theory. And you got to know your history. And if you do not know your history and theory's only good until you get into the job, then you just simply, you have got to do your job. JL (01:26:05): Tell me about that. Yeah. SM (01:26:06): In your own words, could you define Black power? JL (01:26:16): Well, Black power was very simply the belief that Blacks could be in control of the institutions, of their communities, as well as be in control of the cultural and political definitions by which they are know. SM (01:26:46): You also mentioned in the book, and again, I have got you at a disadvantage because you have not referred to it in a while, but you also mentioned about Dr. King, that he did not "condemn black power outright, but sought to temper with love. It is important for the Negro to gain black power". But the term Black power is unfortunate because, this is Dr. King, "Black power's unfortunate because it gives the impression of black nationalism. We must never seek power exclusively for the Negro, but the sharing of power with white people". And this is Dr. King speaking again, and "any other courses exchanging one form of tyranny for another. Black supremacy would be equally as vile as white supremacy." Then you state "that is what white folks want, wanted to hear". All right. Those are Dr. King's thoughts. What are your thoughts on those thoughts? JL (01:27:35): Well, I would certainly, subsequent to that, to me in the (19)70s, I did write things in essential agreement with Dr. King. That certainly Black nationalism, as it evolved, was basically substituting the word black for the word white. It was simply white nationalism warmed over as it were. And so that essentially, there is no substantive difference between any kind of nationalism. Nationalism is always looking inward. It is always exclusionary. It is certainly, you know, you created them and an us kind of situation. And invariably you can have conflict. And so that now, I would certainly, well, as I did in the (19)70s. The (19)70s, I came much closer to agreeing with things King said than I did when he was alive. SM (01:28:42): A very important thing because you became a Jew at a certain point in your life, and you wrote another great book that I read quite a few years back on this, that you wrote. And what is interesting is, if you may recall on Sunday morning when Charles Kuralt was alive in the nineties, they had a whole program on Sunday morning looking at the history of the relationship between African Americans and Jewish Americans and how people were starting to forget that history as people were passing away. And so, a gentleman with a lot of money put together that conference down at the Carter Center. And so, the whole program was about interviews, and James Farmer was there. I know Rabbi Heschel's daughter was there looking at that historic relationship between the two groups because of the incident of Jesse Jackson and other events that were kind of splitting these groups. Young people may have thought they were historic enemies when in reality they were friends. Could you, in your own words, a person who, not only through your religion, but through your here history as an African-American, the important relationship between African-American is the Jewish Americans from the get-go in the Civil Rights Movement? JL (01:30:03): Well. SM (01:30:03): The partnership. JL (01:30:07): I am one of those who, since, from that point of view, I think that the extent the relationship between Blacks and Jews has always been exaggerated. It has been a relationship primarily between segments of the Jewish middle class and the Black middle class. It never was a relationship that involved the Black lower classes or the black working classes, nor the Jewish working classes. I mean, there were riots in Harlem in 1929 because Jewish storekeepers would not hire a Black person at stores. Same thing happened in Chicago in the 1930s. And so, I really think that it's such a distortion of the history of blacks and Jews, relations between black and Jews, and it paints a much more rosy picture of black-Jewish relationships than actually existed. Black anti-Semitism has always existed in the Black community, in black urban areas. And it came to the surface with Minister Farrakhan. Well, it came to the surface with Malcolm X and then with Minister Farrakhan in the 1980s. It was nothing new. It's been there all the time. So, I have also written about this. I just think the picture has been greatly, greatly distorted. The black Jewish connection was never as rosy as we have been led to think. SM (01:31:49): It is interesting because I interviewed David Garrow over at Princeton when he was here, and I mentioned that Rabbi Heschel was a very close friend of Dr. King and had a great influence. And he said, I am going to correct you on that. And he said, yeah, they were friends, but he did not have that great influence on Dr. King. And I was always under the assumption that Rabbi Heschel was one of the first people that persuaded King to give that speech in (19)67 on Vietnam. And he kind of, well, he did not say yes or no to that, but he kind of lessened the importance of that relationship. In your view, was Rabbi Heschel and Dr. King very close friends? JL (01:32:23): My sense is that they knew each other, and certainly Dr. King was going to go to Passover at Rabbi Heschel's home when he was killed that weekend. But I am fairly good friends with Susanna Heschel and Susanna never mentioned the name that her father and Dr. King were close friends. SM (01:32:51): Oh, okay. Could you talk a little bit about your WEIA radio days? A little bit about your WEIA radio days. JL (01:33:06): We are past 5:30. SM (01:33:08): Oh my god. We are. Okay. Could you have 10 more minutes? JL (01:33:14): 10 minutes, tops. SM (01:33:16): Okay then now I am not sure if I... Just briefly talk about how you became a radio disc jockey and what you did. JL (01:33:25): I was on, I had a show on BAI from 1968 to 1975. I basically got the show, those were my day as a focus singer and I had appeared on other shows in the radio station, and for whatever reason they liked me and began to offer me airtime substituting for people who were sick on vacation and what have you. I got my own show and basically it was a live show, two hours, and I would interview people on the air. For a while, the show was a place where Blacks could appear on the air without fear of being treated as a hostilely by an interviewer. The place where they come and express their views without any fear being condemned for those views. I would read the paper on the air, I would play music on the air. It was pretty much, what do I want to do? I really enjoyed the time I was on the air. I did Thursday evening show for a while and then I switched to a morning show, 7:00 to 9:00 in the morning and I really had a lot of fun when I was on the air. SM (01:34:45): Do you think that the boomer generation that has a problem with healing, that they will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, as a generation not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore apart the nation in their youth or young adults? JL (01:35:03): I have no idea. I have no idea. SM (01:35:04): The divisions between Black and white and? JL (01:35:06): And I have no idea. SM (01:35:09): Do you do not think see that? Well, I know that when Jan Scruggs wrote the book To a Heal Nation, he hoped that the Vietnam and Memorial would do that to help not only the veterans, but the generation itself. Have you been to the wall? JL (01:35:22): I have. I have. SM (01:35:26): What was your first reaction when you went to the wall and what was the impact? What were you thinking? Especially as a person who had been to Vietnam. JL (01:36:38): When I was in North Vietnam, I did not go to South Vietnam, but I was very moved by the wall itself and I was also very, very saddened by what a waste of lives. What the hell did those guys die for? They do not know. I do not know. And just one of all my classmates from college name is there, and it is like I was just saddened by the waste of the of lives. I do not know that we heal anything in this country as long as we do not take responsibility for what we have done and what we do. As a nation, we have not taken responsibility for the treatment of Native Americans. We have not taken responsibility for slavery. There are so many things that we have not taken that we have done that have been wrong and we have not taken responsibility for them. And until we do, I do not know that we can heal. SM (01:36:57): Yeah. When the historian’s kind of look at a period, it is usually about 50 to 75 years after an event happens. I know some of the best books now are being written on World War II and that is about 75 years. Well, 50 to 75 years after. What do you think historians and scholars will say about the boomer generation, the (19)60s, the movements, the period, the 65-year period between 46 and 2011, because boomers are turning 65 for the first time this year. What do you think they will say about this period and its impact on the nation? JL (01:37:40): Honestly, there is really no way I can respond to that. I mean, the changes that occur in the time period that you talk about are so extraordinary and so huge, and it is such a complex period and it's getting more complex. Honestly, do not know what they are going to say. I really, really do not. SM (01:38:17): And my last question is basically the last question on the last page is really about how important was music in the Black protest movement and the Black Power movements? I just got a list here of some of the people that I think were big during the period of the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s. But as a musician yourself, and I know I think you performed with Pete Seeger. JL (01:38:42): Oh yeah, I did, yeah. SM (01:38:43): I mean, as an entertainer, really a person, you are an artist, you're a photographer, you are an entertainer and you are a great scholar, you're a professor, a teacher, an intellect. But how important was music on shaping the period? JL (01:38:58): Well, for music was certainly very, very, it is extremely important. Certainly, this Civil Rights Movement I do not think would have had the stuff it did without the music because the music certainly brought people together. A typical mass meeting, you sang for an hour or so and just singing melded together, people who were very afraid about going out on demonstration the next day. And the singing together certainly helped to helped them mitigate their fears as well as in jail situations, people singing it. Certainly, being able to sing, "I ain't afraid of your jail because I want my freedom," certainly was an expression of the spirit. And certainly, the spirit was one of, " You can put me in jail, but you cannot break my spirit." And so, the music was certainly important in the South and Civil Rights Movement. The music was certainly important when you come north and you have the protest song movement with Bob Dylan and Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton and people like that who were writing topical songs and protest songs. And then you go to groups like Country Joe and The Fish, and Jefferson Airplane and that whole era of rock music where the music was very, very politically oriented. And once again, the music was an expression of a different set of values. And then you find James Brown, I am Black and I am proud, and all kinds of things happening in Black popular music where once again, the music was much more an expression of values rather than Baby I love you and that kind of thing. And so, the music carries the 1960s. It is both an expression of the (19)60s as well as a source of energy and strength for the people who were actively involved. SM (01:41:30): As we end, you have been a teacher in the classroom all these years and then you were side by side with many of the students of the (19)60s. How have the students changed? What the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s were the students of say the (19)90s and today? JL (01:41:49): I retired in 2003 and I am no longer teaching, but certainly it was a great difference between the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s whose many of whose parents had been actively involved as opposed to the students of the (19)90s and into the decades of the new century. The present-day students are really through no fault of their own, are not politically involved. They are not that aware of what has happened or what happened in the past. And there are also a generation that at least as I knew them, resented being given responsibility and being held accountable for their behavior in the classroom. And I certainly could not fault them for being who they were, they were simply products of their parents and their teachers. But it certainly made it difficult for me as a teacher from a very-very different generation. SM (01:43:18): Yes. Well, geez, thank you very much. I really appreciate this, and you will see the transcript and I got your ones, the first three questions that you sent me and I am going to need two pictures of you. JL (01:43:31): Okay. SM (01:43:34): So, if you can email two, it could be a picture of you when you were younger or in your heyday or it could be a picture. I certainly want one current and you can mail those to me through email and I will be corresponding with you as in the summer because I am transcribing starting in end of March for about eight, nine months of hibernation of transcription. So, you will see your interview. JL (01:43:58): Okay. All right. Sounds good. SM (01:43:58): And I will tell you, it is an honor to talk to you. JL (01:44:00): Well thank you very-very much. Thank you very-very much. SM (01:44:03): And your students were so lucky to have you in the classroom. My goodness. JL (01:44:05): Well, thank you. I certainly enjoyed my years in the classroom. I did. SM (01:44:11): Well, you have a great day and thanks again. JL (01:44:13): You are very-very welcome and the same to you. SM (01:44:15): Yep. Bye. JL (01:44:15): Bye-Bye. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julius Lester Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lester, Julius ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews Description An account of the resource Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, educator, activist, and musician. His work primarily dealt with African-American culture, history, and folklore. Lester received a Bachelor's degree in English from Fisk University. Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department.  Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry.  His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.78a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.78b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 213:05 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d51080ba635afac48cc084b4d99954e0.jpg 14082c53d3626dedeacdac8d72c8f034 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ac4e39dc523df40910ab7600cb0650a6.mp3 8efa2d6c0a1176632b0865a73e75ea51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-07-30 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Lembcke, 1943- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Jerry Lembcke is an associate professor emeritus of Sociology at Holy Cross University. He has a Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Oregon. He is the author of The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam, and The Legacy of Vietnam and Hanoi Jane: War, Sex, and Fantasies of Betrayal.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Dr. Jerry Lembcke is an associate professor emeritus of Sociology at Holy Cross University. He has a Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Oregon. He is the author of <em>The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam</em>&nbsp;and <em>Hanoi Jane: War, Sex, and Fantasies of Betrayal</em>.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Service; VISTA; Peace Corps; Army draft; Larry Siegfried; Anti-War; Barack Obama; George McGovern; Birth control pill; Beats; City Lights Booksellers and Publishers; Terrorism \n &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:4993,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Service; VISTA; Peace Corps; Army draft; Larry Siegfried; Anti-War; Barack Obama; George McGovern; Birth control pill; Beat generation; City Lights Booksellers and Publishers; Terrorism<br /><br /></span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 144:35 Subject LCSH College teachers; Sociologists; Lembcke, Jerry, 1943--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Jerry Lembcke Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 30 July 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JL (00:00:05): Jeremy. Excuse me. Jerry Lembcke. SM (00:00:14): I might be taking some quotes here too for your reaction to that. You write in your book, Hanoi Jane, that many of the attacks on her are oftentimes based on the need to explain our defeat in Vietnam through betrayal on the home front. Then you also add, "the emasculation of the national will to war." Can you explain what you mean by that in more detail? JL (00:00:41): Well, I think that the United States went into Vietnam, slid into Vietnam, with no idea that it would ever maybe be fighting a major war to begin with, and much less that it would lose its first war on foreign soil. The defeat in Vietnam was a very hard pill to swallow for a lot of Americans. Still is, I think. We were almost, I think, universally self-imagined to be the most powerful nation on earth. Our trajectory in the early (19)60s was even upward from those expectations. Indeed, materially speaking, we were far superior, should have been far superior to the Vietnamese. We had more gunpowder, gun power, better-trained, formally-trained troops and so forth. And yet we lost the war. I think that the country turned inward for explanations for why we lost the war. The short form on that is a scapegoat or scapegoats, alibis, excuses for why we lost the war, and looking for reasons internally. We were too weak. We were not manly enough. That is the emasculation part of it. Vietnam was an emasculating event, I think, culturally speaking for a lot of people, for a lot of people. Looking for reasons for that, looking for scapegoats for that kind of loss, I think you look toward the feminine side of the culture. You look to women perhaps, and Fonda, for reasons we might go into, Fonda fit the bill pretty well. SM (00:02:50): Bobby Muller, who you are aware of- JL (00:02:52): Sure. SM (00:02:52): He was one of the most vocal anti-war vets, once he came out of, after overcoming those terrible tragedy, losing access to his legs and everything. But he said he went into that war knowing that America was a good nation. We were a good nation. We did not do anything wrong. And he came out of that war feeling that we were the bad guy. If you talk to some other Vietnam vets, who also had similar experiences, though some of them will say, "Oh, Bobby. Bobby does not have the attitudes that a lot of other vets had. He just continues to think the way he did and a little bit more critical than he should be." But he has not changed much. Is that part of it too, that even we can use scapegoats with Jane Fonda, we can use scapegoats to the anti-war movement as prolonging the war. That could be a myth too. But really, United States was now seen as not a very good guy in world affairs. JL (00:04:08): Well, I came home from Vietnam having re-thought things that way. Maybe I was not quite as conscious of America as Bobby Muller was going in, a vague... I grew up in an apolitical environment, so I probably did not think about those kinds of those things very much. But to the extent that I did, certainly... I had uncles that fought in World War II. That was part of my sense that in World War II, there is still no doubt in my mind that we were on the right side- SM (00:04:41): Oh, I agree. JL (00:04:42): Of those conflicts. And so sure, going into Vietnam, I thought, "Well, the country goes to war. All the wars I have ever heard of the United States going into, we were on the right side. Why would not Vietnam be the same way?" But in the course of being in Vietnam, and for me, part of coming to that Bobby Muller kind of consciousness was I, being a chaplain's assistant and working for about half the time I was there for a chaplain who was opposed to the war. So if we are talking about religious righteousness, in a religious sense of righteousness, here is the priest, a Catholic priest, and he had worked in the mission’s field in South Asia before the war and had volunteered to come in as a chaplain, which "to do his stint" as he said. But he did not support the war. He was one of the first people from whom I heard, "We are going to lose this war." SM (00:05:54): And what year did you hear that? JL (00:05:56): 1969. SM (00:05:57): That is right in that (19)67 to (19)71 period, which is the real crazy time there. JL (00:06:02): Yeah. Here is the chaplain telling me, "We are going to win." And I suppose I said, "Why? Would you say that?" Or excuse me. He said, "We are going to lose. We are not going to win." His explanation for that was that these people do not want us here. That was his explanation for it. I felt like he knew what he was talking about because he had been in the mission’s field in South Asia. That was a key moment for me in... "Okay, we are on the wrong side of this war. And there might be a righteous side to this war, but we are not on it." As I was going along through this, my questioning became, I think, more sophisticated, more nuanced, to the point where even today I am not a pacifist principally. I think that in the case of Vietnam, I think there was a righteous side to that war. I think the Vietnamese cause was a supportable cause. But we were on the other side. We were on the other side of that. SM (00:07:19): What year were you there? JL (00:07:21): (19)69. I got to Vietnam, I think, New Year's Day, 1969. And I left about the 1st of February (19)70. SM (00:07:34): Were you drafted, or was it volunteer? JL (00:07:36): I was drafted. I was drafted. I was a junior high school math teacher in Fort Dodge, Iowa- SM (00:07:44): Oh, wow. JL (00:07:45): In 1968 and got snared by the Johnson administration's post-Tet call-up of more people. I had been deferred, of course, for college. And then I had been deferred for two years for teaching. SM (00:08:08): Your deferments are running out. JL (00:08:10): I was about to turn 25, and my friendly draft board in Le Mars, Iowa, which is Plymouth County, Iowa, they kept telling me with a smile, "But you are going to have to go eventually. Yes, we will defer you for one more year. But eventually you are going to have to go." SM (00:08:29): Had you been involved in any anti-war activity while you were in college? JL (00:08:30): No, not a lick. SM (00:08:32): Of course, as a teacher, you probably could not because you could lose your job. JL (00:08:35): Well, yeah. But no, I was not. I was political. I was not political right up into induction. I tried to stay out of... I tried to still stay out on the grounds that I was a teacher and that I was of better service to my country as a math teacher than I would be in the army. SM (00:09:04): Yeah, because that whole era was about service. And I got questioned about the different opinions about service, pro and con, later in the interview. JL (00:09:14): Sure. SM (00:09:14): Another charge is that protests at home prolonged the war. I mentioned that as previously. College students on college campuses are [inaudible] that helped lose the war for Americans took place within America so that the North Vietnamese only had to wait it out. Le Duc Tho, I think, was the one in his biography who states that, "We knew America was not going to stick." There was protests going on back in the United States and that they were not going to stay the long course like they were. And of course, they had always stayed the long course in their history, no matter what. JL (00:09:49): Sure. SM (00:09:51): But do you consider this also another one of these myths that we constantly hear, particularly amongst the people that are against the anti- war movement, the New Left and that group, that they prolonged the war by their protest? JL (00:10:06): Yeah, I do not think that that is true. I think that if anything, the protests shortened, shortened the war. I think we lost the war because we were beaten by the Vietnamese. We were not beaten by the anti-war movement. There is a chemistry there between the resourcefulness and the resilience of the Vietnamese people and what is going on back home, on the home front. There is no doubt that the anti-war movement initially, that some people in the anti-war movement saw the Vietnamese cause as a righteous cause and protest the war because of that. And you have got pacifists at home who are protesting the war because it is a war, who are not going to support any war. As time went on, I think, more and more Americans came to the anti-war movement, simply because of the length of the war itself. The war went on and on, and people could see no light at the end of the tunnel, and so begin to be won over to the anti-war cause, if not the pro-Vietnamese cause, but simply because this war is not going anywhere. People came to see it as being divisive, a drain on economic resources. But if the Vietnamese had not been doing well enough to at least fight the US to a stalemate, to a standstill, then a lot of this other stuff would not have been going on at home. So I think that, to the extent that the anti-war movement becomes a factor in the outcome of the war, that in turn is attributable to the Vietnamese themselves. So it is really back to the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese won the war, and they won the hearts and minds of a lot of American people. SM (00:12:20): There is no question that we could have physically won that war with all of our military capability and of course, that mentality of the - I forget the generals - and those bomb to the Stone Age, that that kind of mentality, "Yeah, we could have ended the war there just like we did in Japan, with the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." But the key question is, they won psychologically, I believe. JL (00:12:45): Sure. SM (00:12:46): They won the psychological game. And it is because they knew who they were, and they knew their history, they knew their culture, and they knew that they were not going to be defeated, no matter what. JL (00:12:56): Right. SM (00:12:57): Whether it be the French, whether it be the Chinese, the Japanese, or any other, back in their history. JL (00:13:03): We are fighting, we are fighting on their terrain. The commonplace interpretation is that, "Well, then they know the hills and the valleys and then the jungles." That might have been true too. But I think it is more psychological. It is the emotional. They are fighting for their homeland, and we are not. So they are going to be more committed to that. They are going to stay the course for a long period of time. SM (00:13:37): You said you learned from the chaplain that this war was not going to be, that we were not going to win this war. But from the time you arrived on the airplane in Vietnam to the time you left, can you specifically state when you personally felt an experience, not necessarily with a chaplain, that said, "This is ridiculous. We are not going to win this thing. Or that something is wrong here, the strategy's wrong," and whether you were saying this to your peers? That maybe you were not saying it, but other soldiers were saying it. Was there a specific instance where... JL (00:14:13): There are two that come to mind right away. Maybe as we talk more, there might be maybe. But two things that come to mind. Very early on, I saw the remnants of the French presence there. And I had no clue whatsoever. I do not know that... I graduated from college in 1966, Augustana College in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I was a math major. I had had one American history class. I am not sure I had ever heard the words "colonialism" or "imperialism". When I saw the first... I still have the photograph; occasionally I run across the photograph of a bridge. I traveled around my little Instamatic. It was a bridge that had a French word on it, probably the French construction company that built the bridge and a date on it. I think it was 1941. I asked the Chaplin about that. Probably I did not even know that word was French. But I asked, "What is this?" I began to learn. I began to learn about the French colonization of Indo-China. That was hugely enlightening for me. That was just a big light pole that went off. That was one thing. The other thing that does not quite fit into your question, but I think it belongs here anyway, was seeing the permanency of what the US was putting in place there. For the first six months I was there, I was near, I was in a small Army camp near Phu Cat Airbase, which was just west of Qui Nhon. Most Americans, still to this day, have never heard of Phu Cat airbase. But to get to our little Army camp, we had to drive through Phu Cat, had to come through the main gate and then go out on the other side, so we were in and out of Phu Cat all the time. I remember vividly the cement roads, the cement - not asphalt - cement roads, cement curb, curb and gutter. "Holy cow, this is built to stay." This is not like my little Army camp that is half tents and sandbag bunkers and stuff like that. This airbase permanence, its permanence. "What is going on? What is going on with this?" Again, a light bulb, began to ask, began, "Why would we be building, why would we be building this thing here?" And I suppose at some point even, not consciously, that French bridge, the permanency of that, and the permanency of this air base began to come together. And then seeing on the air base, seeing the swimming pools, the bowling alleys, a library, football pools 10 years from now, the Sioux Bowl. Now, when I hear about Iraq, I hear the same things. SM (00:17:41): And Afghanistan. JL (00:17:42): People who have been there - and maybe Afghanistan too - say the US is building these big bases. SM (00:17:48): This gets right into my next expression here, which is Ronald Reagan, I interviewed Jack Wheeler. I do not know if you know Jack. He was a fundraiser for the Vietnam Memorial, and he was in Vietnam. He had done a Triple Heart. Ronald Reagan, he said, "Listen to Ronald Reagan's speech in (19)84," because Ronald Reagan did not come to the Vietnam Memorial when it opened in (19)82, because it was politically feasible to be there or was not the right thing. But in (19)84, he came to the Wall, and Peggy Noonan had written a great speech for him. But he said, Ronald Reagan's famous 1984 speech at the Vietnam War Memorial, he said, "We will never enter a war again without making sure that we are going to win it. We are going to give the military everything they need." And basically, he was blaming it on the leaders of the time, plus we must be... When you figure this also out, if he had been president, he probably would have been tougher, even though Nixon was pretty tough. He blamed it on the leaders. And then he also believed that we must be tougher on the dissent. Like his years as governor, where he came to power fighting students in (19)64 and (19)65 in the Free Speech Movement and (19)69 at People's Park. Reagan came to power based on two things. Number one, his law and order mentality against the students at university campuses in (19)64, (19)65, and in (19)69, when Meese was with him. And secondly, on ending the welfare state. That was the mentality. So my question is, what are your thoughts on that speech? And is this a myth? Because you have already brought the fact that we lost the war, but he is saying that if we had put everything into it, like Jim Webb and others have said, we would have won that thing. But we just did not have the will. We did not have the strategy. We did not have the desire to, whatever. Is that a myth? Is what Ronald Reagan is saying, that if we put everything into it, we would have won? JL (00:20:07): I think, no. I do not think we would have won. I think we could have prolonged the war. We might have been able to occupy Vietnam in a reasonably peaceful manner for a while. But the Vietnamese would have eventually thrown us out. SM (00:20:32): You think, even if they had done, "God, this never would have happened." I think, was it Hershey that... Who was the guy that had the mentality of dropping bombs and putting them back to the Stone Age? Was that General Hershey? JL (00:20:46): Oh, no, that was... SM (00:20:49): Oh, what is his name? Come on, Steve. I see him. There is a biography out on him right now. But anyways, we would never do that. But if by some chance we had ever dropped one bomb on Hanoi, do you think they would have continued? JL (00:21:04): Yeah, I think so. I do not know. That is the thing. SM (00:21:15): See, there is only one major city. They did not have any other major cities like that. JL (00:21:19): Yeah. But again, it maybe depends on at what point that bomb was dropping. By the end of the war, Hanoi was pretty much evacuated anyway. The Christmas bombings in 1972- SM (00:21:31): Yeah, they really did not hit much. They were bad though. JL (00:21:34): They were bad. But everything was out of the city. They had moved manufacturing out of the city, decentralized it. They had moved schools and art institutes and this stuff. It was spread out all over. It became, by the end of the war, Americans, I think, widely recognized that a country that is not very industrial is not very susceptible to bombing, because there is nothing to bomb. In 1969, as a chaplain's assistant, I was out and about all the time, on the roads, either on the roads or in helicopters. I was in an artillery unit. I was assigned to an artillery unit. These artillery units get broken up into these little gun pods that are on hilltops and checkpoints just all over the place. The chaplain and I, on a weekly basis, we made our rounds to all of these gun placement sites. The ones that we could reach by road, we drove to. The other ones, then we would helicopter to. But my point here is that I do not think there was a bridge that was still standing in the central highlands where I traveled. All the bridges had been bombed out. We had come up to the river or the creek and down into it. Maybe there had been some gravel down there, so the water was not too deep, if there was water at all. But the bridge itself was gone. SM (00:23:18): Wow. JL (00:23:21): So what are you going to... I do not know, I do not know. SM (00:23:25): When you were with the chaplain, did you give Last Rites to many? Was that part of his role? JL (00:23:31): Yes. Yes. A few. Oh, Last Rites as opposed to memorial, not a memorial service. SM (00:23:36): A combination either memorials of those who had died, and then of course, Last Rites right at the spot. JL (00:23:43): Well, not right at the spot, no. At the hospital, the chaplain would follow up after a fight. We were never on the scene of a ground attack on an LZ or a fire base. We would come in afterwards. In fact, there was a few times when we stayed in a helicopter in the air until things were cleared out. People in combat roles do not want you around if you are not part of it. They really do not. SM (00:24:29): So then in combat- JL (00:24:31): Combat's work. It is a form of work. I came to see what these guys are doing like looking at a construction site. When people are working on a construction site, they do not want you wandering around looking at things, because you are in the way. You might get hurt. SM (00:24:52): So those Joe Galloway stories, I know journalists were allowed to go with these troops. But the Joe Galloway story's a rare one. JL (00:25:01): You know what though? You better follow up on a lot of these stories about journalists going out? A lot of that stuff is baloney, because you... Closer to the truth is that they could not, they could not, they were not allowed to. There are good exceptions. SM (00:25:20): So that is another myth. JL (00:25:23): I think that is a big myth. And it has grown bigger over the years. SM (00:25:26): Well, the Joe Galloway was the big one, because we were soldiers once and brave, and he was there. And I know the story about catching the last helicopter, and he was there. And he had to take a gun up. And that is true. But that might have been a rare case then. JL (00:25:43): One of my best friends, the artillery unit where I was assigned, was the press officer. Well, he was not an officer. He was a Spec/5, but he was the press liaison person for the artillery. You have batteries. That is different, a different terminology. The artillery also have group. Those are the 41st Artillery Group. He was the press liaison officer. And I asked him, I said, "What do you do?" I said, "I never see you doing anything." This is what he said. He said, "My job is to see that any journalists who make it out here to Group Headquarters do not get any further." SM (00:26:30): Oh, wow. JL (00:26:32): He said, "I give them a story and send them back to Saigon." SM (00:26:37): Does that include the TV people? Because Walter Cronkite and Morley Safer and Dan Rather, and the African American person from 60 Minutes, Bradley, they supposedly were out there with the troops. JL (00:26:53): In 13 months I was there and out and about all the time, never saw a journalist of any kind. And more importantly, never heard of one being there. And these are places where, if there had have been a journalist at LZ Uplift, they had have been talking about that for six months. SM (00:27:11): How about the photographers like Larry Burrows and I forget the guy. There is several. Kenley, James Kenley, I forget his name was. Let me get into this from here. You wrote the great book, titled Spitting Image. First, what was your main inspiration in writing it? And second, when it was shown that this myth had little visible facts, how did Vietnam vets respond overall? Let me finish my other comments here. "The image of the vets being spit upon is still out there because I know. I have heard from people that I thought would be a little more educated about this issue. Some vets continue to use it as an example of how they were treated when they came home. The image of vets was based due to My Lai and other atrocities. Many vets were upset that they were placed in situations that made no sense and cost lives, upset with the strategy. People were upset with the leaders, and the military leaders and political leaders and the anti-war protest protestors were really not against the troops." There was a lot here, but what has been the reaction of your book Spitting Image in the Vietnam veteran community? JL (00:28:31): Almost 50-50 from what I hear. That was the pattern to begin with, and it continues to be the pattern. About half the guys I hear from say, "Right on, this never happened. It is about time somebody wrote this book," even though I wrote it, now, 12 years ago. And just as often, I hear from people who are just outraged, just beyond themselves. SM (00:29:00): But the ones that are outraged though, are they people that say... SM (00:29:03): The ones that are outraged though, are they people that say, it happened to me? Or are they going from hearsay? JL (00:29:10): It is a bit of both, but quite often it happened to me. That is what I hear. And the stories seem to get wilder all the time. By that I mean less believable, less plausible, loaded up with more exaggeration. And the guys who are locked into that are really locked into it. And I think the exaggeration reflects a kind of desperation on their part to be believed. And they keep loading in more stuff. SM (00:29:48): Is this another one of those reasons why some, we lost the war, this is our way of blaming others for the situation we were a part of? It is not like the anti-war people protesting and prolonging the war or Jane Fonda should be sent to jail for crimes that she committed against the nation? JL (00:30:18): I think it is a victimization identity. A victim identity or almost an ideology is what they are hooked on. It is a twist in the culture. It is not rational. You cannot really make sense of it. But it is that to be a victim is a credentialing. In the same sense that having a Purple Heart is a kind of credential. It is a way of saying, I am the real deal. Because I have a Purple Heart. The spat upon story. I have to step back on that one. The Purple Heart, if you are wounded, in a sense you are a victim. You have suffered, you have taken a loss. SM (00:31:11): Right. JL (00:31:13): You extend that a little bit, give it a little bit of a twist. Being spat on is also victimization. And if you believe that the real war all along was at home, not in Vietnam, if you got a Purple Heart in Vietnam, that was one front of the war. SM (00:31:32): Let us change this, this the 30 minute. This is the 40. All right, bear with me. Okay. JL (00:31:43): Vietnam was one front of that war. You got your Purple Heart there. Many people would say the real war was at home and I got my Purple Heart at home when I was spat on. You see what I am getting at. It is identity construction and they are really locked into that. SM (00:32:13): I have also wondered if people are not, they were not actually spit upon physically, but they used the term I was spit upon. It is a term they used if I was treated like crap. I am wondering if people interpret it differently? JL (00:32:33): It might be that their own thinking started that way, but then that they congealed it, or what is the word I want? It became more graphic to them even that they really were spat on. And then they start telling the story that way. SM (00:32:54): Well, I have two examples. This is your interview, but I want to bring this in here. And that is, I have been at the Vietnam Memorial now since 94, both for Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. I sit down amongst a lot of people and let them know I am not a veteran right away. And I am proud, I am very close to a lot of the Vietnam vets and I care about them. And I sat next to a mother when John McDermott was there, the singer who was singing a song and she had tears in her eyes and she said "right above John McDermott's shoulder is where my son's name is." She could see it from a distance and you know something, "the anti-war movement, when my son was buried near Penn State," that is where they lived. "The anti-war protestors were screaming and yelling and calling all kinds of names, baby killers. When my son was being buried, it was a protest. And it probably was not against the person who had died, but it was against the military as a whole." And so she said, that is an experience she will never forget. And the second person I sat next to many years later, it was raining at the Vietnam Memorial, and she said to me, there was an experience. "My son was buried at Arlington and that was a fresh grave. And there had been a major protest in Washington." And she went out to Arlington to visit the spot where her son had just been buried with the dirt put over. And it was raining and they had put canvas covers over the spots. She went out there and she noticed that somebody was moving around underneath the spot. There was an anti-war protestor underneath that little tarp to protect themselves from the rain and laying right on her son's grave. And she was so upset with him saying that, "how dare you lay on my son's grave" and "I am just protecting myself from the rain." And she said, "You are a protestor?" "Yeah, I was a protestor." "Do you really care about the war?" "No, I was paid to come here to protest." He did not care about the war at all. It was just an experience I wanted to share there. One powerful Vietnam vet said, "that the real generation gap was within the generation itself, not between parents and children." I think we know that there was a generation gap between the World War II generation and their kids. That is a well-known fact. But I had never thought of it in terms of the generation gap within. I want your comments on these, those who served and those who evaded the draft. And we are not talking about people who protested the war. We are talking about people who evaded the draft. This same person thought that the boomer generation saw service is a good thing. Because Kennedy, when he gave that speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." I have interviewed several people that were inspired by that. And that service could be serving in the military, serving your country in the military or in the Peace Corps or VISTA or whatever. But the reason that same person says that he defines the boomer generation as a generation that was weak in service because they did not understand that when your nation calls, you go to war. The Peace Corps and VISTA is not enough here, if you are talking about defining generation. Being a service-oriented generation is that when you are called to serve, you do. And I will mention who this person was in a minute. This is based on the Lost Generation book and the symposium that took place with James Webb and Bounty Mueller and several others, Phil Caputo and everything. Basically it was James Webb who said, who was not even a United States senator, that said that "I do not consider the boomer generation, that generation that was raised after World War II as a service-oriented generation that we look of them as because of the fact that they evaded the draft, that there were many that evaded the draft just to save their own skin." And even James Fallows has written about the fact that he felt guilty that he had evaded the draft and he had not protested against the draft. And he has felt a big difference. And he has come to terms with that and has admitted his wrongs in front of vets. He has gained the respect to vets. I would just like your thoughts on that concept that the generation gap is as strong between parents and children as it is between young people within the generation, those who served Vietnam and those who evaded the draft. JL (00:38:13): A lot of people who evaded the draft went on to serve, if not this country, serve humankind in wonderful ways. My learning for this, there is a book called Northern Passage. SM (00:38:33): Yeah, I have it. JL (00:38:36): You have it? Okay. I reviewed that book for a Canadian... SM (00:38:39): Kind of a conscientious objectors. JL (00:38:40): Yeah, both all the people who went to Canada and what an enormous talent drain that was from the United States. Some of these people have become some of Canada's most creatively productive citizens. People working in the arts, people working in politics, people working in education. People in my view, the way I view service with a huge commitment to serve and to put your talent to good use. And I know a few people who evaded the draft and who did alternative service and things like that. And there is not a slacker among any of those people. And I go back to what I was about to say at the beginning here was that I think a lot of people tried to stay out of the draft. I tried to stay out of the draft because I thought being a teacher, being a math teacher in a junior high school was a much better way for me to serve the country. And I think that motivated a lot of those people. I do not think it was to save their own hides. I do not think those people were afraid in the usual sense of the term. Some of them were philosophically or morally opposed to the war. But again, they were not trying to stay out of hard work or something like that or to stay out of service because they did service. They did service in some other way. SM (00:40:28): When I was a senior Binghamton, I remember playing basketball in the gym, my junior and senior year on athletics. And I can remember all the conversations of the draft, the lottery numbers were coming up. I was actually 72. And students were saying, oh, I do not have anything to worry about because I am going to get an alternative service as a teacher. And I remember some of the students saying, why are you going to be a teacher? I do not really want to be a teacher. It just gets me out of the draft. And the question I asked Leon Botstein, I did not interview him for my book, but I interviewed him when he came to our Westchester University campus. And I asked him, do you think there is any link between the quality of education that went down after the boomer generation in terms of quality based on the quality of the teachers? And he did not really come up with an answer. He said, nothing has ever been written about it. But I knew that those people that were becoming teachers were going to quit as soon as they could get another job as soon as the war was over. This is not about you now, this is about, do you think there is any link between the poor quality of teaching that took place after the (19)60s, we are talking late, mid (19)70s and beyond, because the teachers were not dedicated enough to being good teachers and they were only there to get out of the draft, particularly male teachers, and then they quit once the draft ended? JL (00:42:01): I have never thought about that, because I have never heard anything like that. People get out of teaching because the pay is not very good and the conditions are pretty hard. I still say today it is the hardest job I ever had teaching junior high school math. That was a tough job. That was a hard job. And I think that is why maybe, I would have to think about the political economy of education for a minute, but it might have been in the (19)70s that funding for various education programs were cut, things like that. I do not know. SM (00:42:46): I think he was making reference. I think somebody needs to do a study of this because you may be onto something. Because there was a period that students were not as well prepared, not in elementary education. Elementary education has been sound from the get-go, something happens when they reach seventh grade. JL (00:43:03): People do not stay in teaching long now. I teach at Holy Cross College and we have quite a few students who go out of college that go into teaching but they do not stay. It is a gateway or a stepping stone, a holding pattern, just something else. There are not many who go into it and stick with it. SM (00:43:22): You are teaching in a great school though. JL (00:43:24): Oh, thank you. SM (00:43:25): I know all about Holy Cross and long before Bob Cousy. Because I read about that. JL (00:43:31): That goes back a long way. SM (00:43:32): Yeah. I was a kid and I saw Bob Cousy play at the Syracuse War Memorial when the Celtics came in and played the Syracuse Nationals and they were on an 18 game winning. We lived in Binghamton and my dad drove me up. It was a winter storm there and I will never forget. The Celtics were on an 18 game winning streak. And the Nationals beat them and I will never forget Tommy Heinsohn putting his fist up with his flat top as they were booing. And then of course Jim Loscutoff got a big fight. JL (00:44:01): Geez, I have not heard these names. SM (00:44:03): And Larry Siegfried called me... JL (00:44:04): Oh my god. SM (00:44:05): Larry Siegfried was an Ohio State guy. JL (00:44:07): Ohio State guy. Yeah. SM (00:44:09): My dad and I went up to him for an autograph and he said, get out of here you little runt. Yeah, Larry Siegfried, he was as mean in person as he was on the court. He got in a lot of fights with the Sixers. Larry Siegfried and the Sixers, and of course Loscutoff was their hatchet man. Have you had any thoughts about other myths linked to the Vietnam War? I would like to list two myths that I think are here. you have already talked about the spitting image myth and the image of Jane Fonda. We are going to get in and talk about Jane in a couple minutes. But these are two myths that I came up with. Nixon's Peace with Honor. Peace with Honor was what he said in his speech in 1973. Peace and honor. What we did to Vietnam by killing 3 million people and destroying the land and agent orange and generations and so forth. Honor? I think that is a myth. And secondly, the people of South Vietnam supported their leaders and made every effort to defeat the north. We had advisors there since (19)63. I remember when I interviewed the professor at Harvard, Hue-Tam, I cannot pronounce her full name, she teaches Vietnamese history at Harvard. And when I mentioned the fact that Thieu Ky Diem regime knew, that particular group, that they were puppets. She really got upset that I said that. And she went from being a friend, and I am not going to put this on the tape, but she got very upset. She said they were elected. Let me tell you that Diem, Thieu Ky were elected, whether you like it or not, the people voted them in. Well, I thought they were puppets, but it is her interview. JL (00:45:58): Yeah, sure. SM (00:45:59): And then she said, by the way, Diem put my father in jail. It is not like she liked him. What other myths do you see in Vietnam or anything linked in Vietnam? JL (00:46:15): I wish I had some time to think about that. It was only a few days ago or a couple weeks ago that I had one really good thing in mind, but I cannot remember now what it was. You are catching me by surprise. SM (00:46:30): You can email me. JL (00:46:31): Maybe it will come back to me, but something quite big, quite broad that I did not think anybody had taken a look at. There are smaller pieces that I think need to be looked at. The journalism one, the idea that journalists could go everywhere in Vietnam. SM (00:47:00): My batteries are going in pretty good. Yeah, I am fine. JL (00:47:11): The one that I get-get asked about occasionally is the stories of throwing prisoners out of helicopters. That the US took captive VC and took them up in helicopters and we would throw one out in order to make the others talk. And probably a couple of times a year I get an email from somebody saying they have heard this story, is this story true? And I doubt if it is, but it is certainly out there. But now the question about that for a scholar like me is not the story in itself. Maybe it did happen once. I think things like that could have happened. But how does that play in then to the American imagination? That is the myth. A small story that is really a building block for something that is quite larger. It is like the spitting stories. The spitting stories are really about the myth that we lost the war on the home from. That is the myth. Where does this prisoners out of helicopters? SM (00:48:28): I have read it in books. I have read it in history books on Vietnam. Very top-quality books where there is a scene in one where there is three prisoners taken up in the helicopter. And the guys knew in the beginning that they were only going to have one coming back no matter what. Speak up. Tell me the truth. You got to tell me the truth. Are you going to tell me the truth? You got to tell me the truth. I am going to throw this guy out here if you do not tell me the truth. You do not believe I am going to tell you the truth. That kind of stuff. JL (00:49:03): The story goes also that I have heard it half a dozen times, that you never counted prisoners when you put them on the helicopter because the number might not square with how many you had when you got off the helicopter. SM (00:49:19): Is not there another one here that Americans turned over their capture to the South Vietnamese army and they basically killed them all? I remember we had Country Joe McDonald on our campus during then and Country Joe brought up something, James [inaudible] was in the room and he did not say anything, but he made a reference. [inaudible] they know why there were no prisoners of war on our side. We got POWs, but there were none on our side. And then of course, nobody ever said anything more than we just went back to the conversation about other things. But I think he was making a reference where do we ever hear about POWs on the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese forces were there? And we did hand them over to the South Vietnamese army. Did they kill them? JL (00:50:13): I do not know that I have ever heard that they did. We tried to convert them, get them to turn over, turn around course. We did that. There were the tiger cages on Con Son Island, the South Vietnamese did imprison some people there. There was the Phoenix program that was an assassination program that we operated. SM (00:50:46): I think Senator Kerry was in that too. Was not he the one, the president of the new school? Was not he a Phoenix programmer? I think. JL (00:50:54): I believe so. I believe the story that he tells that he was a Navy Seal. He tells one of the stories. Yeah. I do not know. That is a good question there, actually. SM (00:51:06): These are stories to get down to the truth of things. It is always the context. From the truth to the reality or some of these personal experiences may be just a onetime experience and it may not be across the board. And we cannot get caught up in, what do you call it, stereotyping and generalizing reality. A personal experience may be true, but a general experience may be ridiculous. JL (00:51:30): Yeah-yeah. SM (00:51:31): You bring up in your book Hanoi Jane, the destruction of characters as a key to opponents of when the neocons or the people on the right, they try to destroy character. I mentioned just some names here and I would like you to respond because you talk about Jane Fonda. But certainly Daniel Ellsberg with what happened to him and Nixon trying to find his psychiatric files or whatever to try to destroy his character. Obviously Bill Clinton went through a lot with what he did many of it on his own behalf. John Kerry in 2004, saying that he lied about his military record trying to find the Achilles heel. And nobody's perfect to that, trying to destroy character. Could you talk a little bit more about that and particularly with respect to Jane Fonda? JL (00:52:30): What seems to bug some people on the right is what they consider unstable character. The character flaw that they see is instability, inconsistency. And I think the sources of that are religious or religious ideology. What comes out of the Old Testament and the New Testament is, stories of deception, stories of betrayal, that evil masquerades as good, the good people are tricked by, are fooled, are misled into following false gods, false saviors. People need to be aware of that. People need to be able to trust what they see and what they hear. Instability becomes a clue maybe that there is something that does not meet the eye going on here. She does not seem to be stable. She herself seems to be susceptible to other characters. She is easily wooed by this or that. Again, in the religious terms, somebody who follows one image of goodness for a while, but then changes and follows a different image of goodness for another while then becomes part of the problem. They are easily deceived by Satan, easily deceived by the devil. In political terms, then that person becomes a liability, a political liability, because the enemy can use that person as an inroad. And I think they might not articulate it that way. They might not even think about it that way, but you are asking me why they, the political right in America today is very infused with Christian conservatism. And those notions are fundamental. That is those ideas, those fears of betrayal, deception, that book of revelation Christianity is fundamental. SM (00:55:32): Is another way of saying it, when people are unpredictable. When you work someplace, you would like to have people around you and you can predict how they are going to act or react in a certain situation. But when a person is unpredictable, that sends all kinds of waves up. The person may not go with the flow, may not agree with us, may be against us, may just be at the center or whatever. And it seems like we need more of those kinds of people unpredictable than we need predictable because they make us better because they challenge us more. Challenge our ways of thinking. That is when I look at Jane Fonda and I think of Daniel Ellsberg and I think of John Kerry and I think of all the other people, I consider them unpredictable people who have a conscience and will speak their minds but not necessarily agree with the mainstream. JL (00:56:27): Well, Howard Zinn notably said that the problem is not dissent from authority. The problem is complicity with authority. We got the Holocaust because people were too obedient. People were unwilling or unable to resist authority. And I think that that is true, not universally true, but I think certainly in the last half of the 20th century, I think that that was true. And I think it continues to be true today. Another thing that factors into this with the Hanoi Jane, John Kerry, had all kinds of characters and the attack on their character is the difference between people whose worldview is based on belief as opposed to evidence. People who live in an evidence-based epistemology or live with an evidence-based epistemology or worldview way of knowing the world are going to change based on new information. New information changes your view of how things are. And that is a part of what makes the... JL (00:58:02): That is a part of what makes the educated people, the intellectuals, that is what makes them intellectuals. But it is also what makes them suspect by people on the fundamentalist, religious right wing. They are suspicious of people who know quote unquote. Who know as opposed to who believe. SM (00:58:30): Beautiful. Yeah. JL (00:58:31): Knowledge is one thing. Belief is something else. And that goes clear back to the suspicions about the French Revolution, the role of intellectuals in the enlightenment period of European history. And the religious based people were always, well, the Christian, religious based people were always kind of suspicious of people who thought they... SM (00:58:56): That explains intellectuals being killed throughout the decades. JL (00:59:02): And so that is why I think, I tried to make that point in the book. SM (00:59:05): You do a good job of it. JL (00:59:07): Oh, thank you. Because she is, people would not usually think of Jane fond as an intellectual, but she works in that world of ideas. SM (00:59:17): Yes, she does. JL (00:59:18): The world of ideas and images, and a world that affects how people view the world, how people feel about the world. And so, in the way I use the term intellectual, she is an intellectual. She does intellectual work. She is a part of intellectual America. And I think that adds to her... SM (00:59:47): Yesterday when I interviewed Dr. Baxandall, I brought this up about the 1950s. Because we are talking about boomers now, people raised after 1946. But I am going to preface this by saying that I believe people born between (19)40 and (19)46, (19)45 are in this group as well. Because most of the leaders of the anti-war movement were born before 1946. And probably about one third of the people I have interviewed cannot stand the term boomer to begin with. It is about a group of people, it is about an idea, it is about a period, and they have a problem with even the younger boomers. JL (01:00:20): It might be about a marketing demographic. SM (01:00:22): Yeah, marketing demographic. But I bring up the (19)50s, because I think the 1950s are a very important part of the psyche of just about all boomers, whether they were activists or not. And I said this yesterday, and I will say it again today for your response that in the 1950s it seemed like there were three things that stood out in my mind above anything else, there was a concept of fear. There were a lot of good times for young people in the (19)50s because the parents were home. But there was a concept of fear because the Cold War was happening, the threat of nuclear war may have been in the backs of people's minds. And of course, the McCarthy hearings that anybody of the early boomers saw on television, seeing these voices saying that, "Are you or are you not a communist?" And lives being destroyed, careers being destroyed, people committing suicide because they could not get a job. Those kinds of things. So a concept of fear. Second is that the concept of being very quiet. People were quiet, they did not speak up very much. Security meant everything to people seemed like in those times. And thirdly, I felt that we were naive. And I think as boomers have evolved, the naivete was hit real hard in the 1960s, because you started seeing that black and white television, there were no black people on black and white television, you saw what was happening in the south, issues with the women and African Americans, and certainly Native Americans, the black and white cowboy and Indian culture. So what I am getting at here is the kind of a do not speak until you are spoken to mentality, which was what the (19)50s was about. Then you get in the 1960s where fear is replaced by being assertive, quiet becomes outspoken and naive becomes, you see the injustices and you want to speak. You want to speak when you have something to say, kind of a different mentality. So I would like your thoughts on that. That the (19)50s was really the very important in shaping everything that followed. JL (01:02:40): The one thing that I would add to that, and I think you are onto something, there might be an intra generational thing here. The people who are a little older and maybe... People who are a little older... JL (01:02:59): What is this? Is this... SM (01:03:01): Not that one. Hold on. Actually, this does a better job. I got to get my 45 into this one. Okay, this cannot be used again. There we go. [inaudible] JL (01:03:23): People who are a little older and who maybe came to political consciousness in the late (19)30s maybe, or during the World War II years themselves, and were more politically conscious at a younger age, might have had that sense of the 1950s. SM (01:03:50): Right. JL (01:03:52): People Who are a little younger may have experienced the 1950s as years of economic security, of hope and promise. The idea that you would ever be unemployed, growing up in the 1950s at least where I grew up, unthinkable. That was the (19)30s. I grew up hearing about the old days. That was the 1930s. My parents were working class, by the way. My father went to seventh grade country school. SM (01:04:47): I heard all about the hobos and all the stories from my parents, my mom and dad. My mom's family did not have any hard time. My dad did because he was a son of a minister. JL (01:05:01): But what I am getting at here is that maybe the masses, so to speak, of the (19)60s generation come out of the (19)50s with a lot of audacity, a lot of strength right there. A lot of resilience. A lot of that might have been false, but they were, what is the term? Possibilists? SM (01:05:32): Possibility thinkers? JL (01:05:33): Possibility thinkers, yeah. So you put those two things together. People who have a little more political consciousness, the older people, with a large bunch of people who really are not afraid of anything. I was not afraid. I did not go to college for job security. I went to college because my parents thought I could have a better life if I went to college. It was not out of necessity so much as it was taking advantage of an opportunity. SM (01:06:15): Right. And that is what the GI Bill was all about, was taking advantage after World War II, of getting a degree and education. That is another quality too, that the (19)50s was the beginning of the importance of higher education. It was always there, but the (19)50s and the (19)60s to me are at the time when the higher education really blew. JL (01:06:36): Really took off. SM (01:06:36): Particularly in the (19)60s. JL (01:06:38): Really grew. SM (01:06:38): Yeah. Really big community college movement and everything else. I am going to get back to Jane Fonda here, because I think she is fascinating in so many ways. Fonda, I am going to read this. It is page 154. I know some people do not like me to read their stuff. I have got to get my glasses again. 154. So when something strikes me, I have to put it in the interview. And I have done it, with Dr. Lifton, I had so many things. Okay here it is. Actually, sometimes I ought to ask the author to read it, you want to read it? JL (01:07:24): I am willing to. SM (01:07:25): Yes. Some people are not. JL (01:07:27): Now I need to get my glasses out. SM (01:07:28): Yeah. To me, this paragraph on 154, I want you to respond to it because I think this is very important because when I interviewed Dr. Baxandall yesterday, a lot of things she said about her life and a lot of females were comparable to what you say about Jane Fonda in this paragraph, and about speaking up for the first time. So if you could just read this paragraph from there to there, and I will have it on record. And I think it is a beautifully written paragraph. JL (01:07:55): "In an April 1974 Playboy interview with her and Tom Hayden, for example, Fonda speculated that the rising hostility to her was due to her having violated feminine norms by speaking her mind in public places. Punctuating the point by saying she would quote, 'No longer accept the image of a mindless Barbarella floating through space.' Unquote. Intending to strike a pose of mindfulness through those words, she inadvertently and unnecessarily in the light of later interpretations of Barbarella, fed the perception of discontinuity in her career that critics would soon throw back at her. 10 years later, she was still putting distance between herself and the galactic warrior woman, telling Erica Young for a Lady's Home Journal interview, that the film and her role as an activist were contradictory." SM (01:08:49): Yeah, I think that is beautiful. And it is like speaking up. Dr. Baxandall yesterday told me that she was in meetings with men and she had all the ideas, and they took her ideas during the anti-war movement. She was the one that came up with the ideas, but they did not want her to speak. Do not speak until you are spoken to, but we will take every idea that you had, and we will take the idea and say that we thought it up. JL (01:09:15): Yep. SM (01:09:16): So it is like, this is a recognition too. This is obviously, when you talk about an intellectual, she is getting it. She is getting these things here, the stereotypes about women. Do you have anything else to add on that paragraph? JL (01:09:38): One of the things, it is the galactic warrior woman thing there. I think that is the most troublesome image of Fonda for a lot of people. And I think that has gone unrecognized, and I think it is unspoken. That is what bothers a lot of people about Fonda, is this outspokenness, but it is also the combativeness for gender and sexual roles in the roles that she plays in her films. There is a real continuity in her film career, certainly from Barbarella on. SM (01:10:27): Oh, yeah. Coming home was just like, whoa. Of course Klute, we all know Klute. I remember going to see all these movies, and Coming Home was, all I can say is, wow. And there is another one, it was... There were two movies. JL (01:10:48): Well, Julia is on my mind because I read in the course of working on the book, I do not know if I wrote it in here. Do you know the film Julia? Late (19)70s, she played the Lilian Hellman. SM (01:11:00): Yes. JL (01:11:01): And in there, one of the reviewers, or one of the critics said, "It is the first romantic kiss between two women in a major Hollywood film." Now that is pretty breakthrough, breakout kind of stuff. SM (01:11:18): And oh On Golden Pond too, which was (19)81, which is the conflict with her dad, and coming together. I remember going to see that movie and all the press. It was 1981. And of course her father was an interesting person as well. You bring it up here that he was really a liberal. JL (01:11:34): Quiet. SM (01:11:34): Yeah. So his influence on her way of thinking, that is... What you do in this book is, and I think it is very important with college students, is do not believe everything you read. The gossip columns, there is context to everything. Even though I do not like Newt Gingrich personally as a politician, I do not dislike him as a human being. And I can remember (19)94, and I am a liberal, and the Women's Center had put a sign up on the door, Women's Center I hate Newt Gingrich. I said, that is inappropriate. That is inappropriate. And of course, I had to do it with the administrator on the side because I did not want to embarrass the administrator in front of the students. But I did confront the students. The students thought I was... What are you, a conservative [inaudible] guy? So I just think, you do not know Newt Gingrich. You do not know him. I do not like his politics, but do not judge him. They said "Oh, he is just some southern [inaudible]." And I said, "Did you know that he was born in Pennsylvania? He lived the first 12 years in his life in Pennsylvania near Harrisburg." JL (01:12:38): Yeah. SM (01:12:39): He has also a PhD. You may not like his politics, but anyways. This is the question you may have already answered. How did you become the person you are? Who were your greatest influences in your life, and who were your role models? Who were the role models that you most admired in the (19)50s through the (19)80s? Basically, when you were very young who were the people you looked up to that kind of inspired you? You have already talked about the chaplain you served in Vietnam, but of all the personalities and figures of that period, when boomers were young in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and early (19)80s, who did you admire? JL (01:13:22): I think it was people in my family. Because as I have said already, I was not politically conscious at all. My parents were not political people. I did not have much of a sense of culture or popular culture in those years. So were I to think of a film star or a political figure or something like that, there would be nobody. So it would be my Uncle Clay, who was a medic in World War II, and was sort of the, I guess, family war hero. Although he was, I guess the kind of classic reticent war veteran who would not say anything unless you have asked him. And then it was all medical stories, no combat stories. And then as I began to come to political consciousness, then political figures became more important to me. And then it was mostly labor people. And I have a former life as a labor historian. SM (01:14:46): Probably know about Bayard Rustin then, do not you? JL (01:14:48): Oh, yes, Bayard Rustin. SM (01:14:52): We did a national tribute at Bayard in Westchester, and we brought in Norman Hill and Rochelle Horowitz and that group. JL (01:14:56): Yeah. And so I became, oh gosh, there were so many labor sort of labor people from the 1930s. My dissertation was a study of a CIO union... SM (01:15:09): Oh wow. JL (01:15:10): In the lumber and wood products' industry. So those were my... I was a little bit older then. It was after Vietnam when I was in graduate school in, I moved away from math and into sociology and history. But it was union organizers, the people who organized the auto industry and the steel industry, and of course, the lumber and wood products industry that... SM (01:15:40): So you were probably a Woody Guthrie fan then too. Was there a... JL (01:15:46): Yeah-yeah-yeah. Woody Guthrie. SM (01:15:49): And Pete Seeger and their music. And I think it was John L. Lewis, was that the guy that... JL (01:15:52): He was the head of the CIO. SM (01:15:54): He was a big, big guy. JL (01:15:56): Yeah. Really important. SM (01:16:03): What kind of feedback you have gotten so far from this book in terms of, did you hear from Jane Fonda at all? JL (01:16:10): Oh, she blogged about the book before... I saw the cover of the book for the first time on Jane Fonda's blog. SM (01:16:20): Oh, wow. JL (01:16:20): Her January 13th blog. And she liked it. And then she was on the Larry King show probably two months ago, and she mentioned the book on the Larry King show. SM (01:16:38): Oh, wow. Very good. JL (01:16:39): So yes, she has weighed in, and she is very... SM (01:16:44): Did you talk to her at all? JL (01:16:45): Not since the book came out? I did... SM (01:16:48): Interview her for the book? JL (01:16:49): Well, I did not interview her. This is preface. SM (01:16:54): I tried to get her to interview for my book, that is when she was with Ted Turner, so I have been doing this for... JL (01:17:00): Well, you should try again. SM (01:17:01): Yeah, some people think I should try again, because some of the feminists that I have interviewed are friends of hers. JL (01:17:07): This is the first sentence of the preface. "'Oh, So it is not about me?' Jane Fonda asked, when I told her I was working on a book about Hanoi Jane. Right, I replied, it is the biography of Hanoi Jane. A phrase laden with myth and legend that plays into people's memories of the war in Vietnam." SM (01:17:28): Yeah. JL (01:17:29): We were in Harvard Square. She wanted to talk to me. It was when she was working on her memoir. SM (01:17:37): Oh yeah, that is right. I have that book too. JL (01:17:38): And she wanted to talk to me about The Spitting Image and the film chapter in The Spitting Image where I wrote about Coming Home, the 1978 film Coming Home, because I had gotten into the film archives in Los Angeles for Coming Home. And she was interested in some of the things I wrote. So she, through her research assistant called me into the Charles Hotel in Harvard Square to talk to me about that. And then in the course of that, I said, "You might be interested in the new book that I am working on." And she said, "What is that?" And I said, "It is about Hanoi Jane." SM (01:18:22): Oh my gosh. JL (01:18:24): And that comment came out, and after about a two and a half hour sit down together, which was just wonderful, there was a knock at the door, maybe a phone rang first. And she said, "Yes, I am almost finished. Come on up." And Howard Zinn walked in. SM (01:18:49): Oh my gosh. JL (01:18:52): Yeah. SM (01:18:53): So he was there the whole time you were there? JL (01:18:55): No, he just came in just as I was finishing, just as Jane and I were. SM (01:18:58): Oh, okay. And you were with her for two hours? JL (01:18:59): Yeah-yeah. A little more than two hours, yeah. SM (01:19:02): Did you tape it? JL (01:19:07): No. The terms of it was that it was not to be an interview. That was the terms of it, that I was not to be interviewing Jane, because we were talking about the Spitting Image. If anything, she was kind of interviewing me to find out... SM (01:19:23): Oh, okay, JL (01:19:25): So where did you get this? SM (01:19:29): Oh my gosh. JL (01:19:33): Because I did not like that Coming Home scene in the film, when Bob gets off the, Sally's husband, Bob gets off the airplane. And he gets off the plane and he says, where are the protestors? They told us on the plane that there would be protestors here to greet us. And then as they drive away from the airport they are greeted by protestors, and Bob flips them the bird as they drive away. And so I wrote in the book, I said, "That scene, that is fictional. That never happened. That is not the historical truth." I have met her one more time actually, when the film No Sir came out, and I saw her again at that point, and she turned to somebody, it might have been Cora Weiss actually, who was... Did you interview Cora Weiss? SM (01:20:34): No, I do not even know who Cora Weiss. Is- JL (01:20:37): Carol Weiss was the woman who, she was one of the founders of Women Strike for Peace, but she founded the Underground Mail Service between the US and Hanoi. SM (01:20:58): Where does she live, New York? JL (01:20:59): New York City, yeah. SM (01:21:02): She retired now? JL (01:21:02): Oh yeah. SM (01:21:04): Oh, wow. JL (01:21:06): But anyway, Jane Fonda turned to her, and then pointed at me and said "He is the one who said, that we got the Coming Home scene all wrong in the film." So apparently she had been talking to... Because Fonda and I were both in that film, Sir! No Sir! You probably know that, right, or not? SM (01:21:29): No, you are in the film itself? JL (01:21:32): Yeah. Because of the book, The Spitting Image. SM (01:21:37): I got to go... JL (01:21:38): Yeah, you got to see that film. SM (01:21:39): No, what is it? JL (01:21:42): Sir! No Sir! SM (01:21:43): I think I saw it. JL (01:21:44): I would think probably you have. SM (01:21:47): I go to the Ritz Theater in Philly, may have been shown there. Well, that is interesting. I might try. Although one of her best friends, I am not sure if it was Holly Near or Torie Osborn, who I interviewed, they said she does not like to talk about Vietnam at all. JL (01:22:06): Fonda? SM (01:22:07): Yeah. JL (01:22:08): I would not be surprised. In my case, that is why we were talking, but I did detect some reluctance. SM (01:22:20): In a nation that professes that free speech and the right to protest is part of the definition of liberty. Why has our government been so rough on the people who challenge the system. And I use these examples of historic events through the time that boomers have been alive. We all know about the McCarthy hearings in the early (19)50s, the HUAC hearings in the late (19)40s, the stories about the Hollywood Ten, several movies have been out on that recently. The stories of COINTELPRO that are terrible. I have had several revelations of what happened to some people, and what they did to destroy lives and the infiltration, and they did not care. We just got to go get them because they are against us. I do not care what happens to them. No sense of humanity at all. This is a United States of America, and we have a constitution and we can disagree, but they are the enemy. And of course, in a simpler way, the enemies list. A lot of people seem to be very happy that they were on it, including the late Daniel Shore who just passed away. And of course Watergate, we all know about that. Why is it that the most articulate seemed to be the greatest threat? Yes, we do not murder activists like they do in other countries, but we tend to subtly destroy them through the issue that you talked about, the destruction of their character. And you are not one of us, you are a troublemaker, all kinds of labels to put out people. We are supposed to be in a democracy where people agree to disagree. JL (01:24:14): I am not sure I can make this compelling. When I am in the classroom I am more prepared for this. But the answer is, it is precisely because this is a democracy. It is precisely because the people are sovereign, that notion of popular sovereignty. SM (01:24:35): Give you this, especially on my 45. JL (01:24:39): In the context where the economy is privately held, there is no democracy in the economy. And so the two of these together produces a kind of passive-aggressive political culture. I do not know, if I just start talking, it probably becomes less clear. But it is that trying to reconcile those two, that makes criticism of that incompatibility so dangerous. And so criticism has to be shut down. Because the people are empowered for the ballot, then the people have to be dumbed down. The people have to be kept uninformed. SM (01:25:59): The term liberty means a lot to me, and I think it is a term we do not use enough of. We talk about other terms, but liberty, it is freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom to be who you are, freedom. And then we hear these kinds of things happening in the United States, and even leaders that we admire will destroy a person who disagrees. I heard stories about Al Gore, if someone went against him he would really destroy their careers. I do not know if that is true, but I heard about it. Just because they disagree with them, or said bad things about them or whatever. You got to have thick skin to be in politics. And it amazes me that democracy is a really good system, that we have a constitution that protects these things and that liberty is something we aspire to and we are proud of, and we do not kill people, but we can destroy them in other ways. That is what bothers me... SM (01:27:03): Them in other ways. And that is what bother me about that. And certainly the Vietnam War is that whole period. And the whole period the Boomers have been alive and they have seen these things throughout their lives. But it may be is part of the whole human experience throughout time too. It has probably been forever. And it may be for... It is just it confounds me and we go on, so to speak. But the breakup of the American society is due to the activities in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Now I bring up the breakup... Make sure I got my glasses here. The breakup of the American society due to the activities in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Newt Gingrich, when he came to power in 94, Mike Huckabee on his TV show. Glenn Beck all the time does this on his show. Hannity, Rush Limbaugh. I do not want always say conservatives. There are some liberals that do it as well, but they blamed a lot of the problems that we have in our society today in America on those times back in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. They say that the loss of family values, that fewer people are going to church. The divorce rate is skyrocketing, there was rampant sex. There was no commitment to the "love the one you are with" mentality. There was a drug culture. There was a lack of respect for authority. And we need to get all those values back because that is what the (19)50s were about. And that is what America's about. It is about... And just your thoughts on that because George Will, oftentimes in his books, make commentaries on this. And other people have written about it that they like to go back and whip that period, constantly whip it. And even Barney Frank, when he wrote his book, "Speaking Frankly", which was a very good book, he said that the Democratic party is going to survive and has to say goodbye to all those people that supported Montgomery. The anti-war movement and all the... He writes about it, and that was in the (19)90s when he wrote this book that the Democratic party is going to survive. It has to say goodbye to the anti-war people. So then that is a diehard, a liberal thing. JL (01:29:20): Well, Barack Obama was quoted in some way that is very close to that too, that the words there that you used goodbye to the anti-war movement. There is an internet site called Open Left. And they picked up on a conference paper that I wrote out of this. And it is in there that whoever edited that piece had a quote from Barack Obama that distances him. He is distancing himself from the anti-war movement. So that is interesting. Me putting those two together, the Barney Frank with Barack Obama, I think that maybe there is something there to pursue. SM (01:30:12): See, the book "Speaking", it is a little thin book, a great book that came out. And there is a biography on Barney Frank right now, but this is at the time he was younger. We are talking 15 years ago. It is a very good book. And I got it underlined and it is basically talking about the survival of the Democratic party. JL (01:30:27): Yeah. SM (01:30:28): And that McGovern, if you were linked to McGovern, you just simply kind of disassociated yourself with those kinds of... JL (01:30:36): I think the key word here on the view of the (19)60s that you are referring to here, I think the key word is permissiveness. That is what really bothered them. And some of that has to do with religious values. And again, things are already talked about, the instability unpredictability. I mean, those are almost antonyms or predictability antonym for permissiveness. You can kind of see those things. But there is a gender component too, to this permissiveness part of it that I think is important. The idea that maleness, that masculinity is about discipline, whereas the female side of the culture is more permissive. It is more fluid. It is more free ranging. And that we lost the war in Vietnam and America is losing its way because we have lost our focus. We have lost our discipline. And it is the quote unquote "feminine" in the culture that has percolated to the surface and did so big time during the war in Vietnam. And so what really cost us was culture. And of course that the culture was- SM (01:32:15): We all know what the pill did. And women had brought that up, this pill. It is crucial for women. And to deny that what was happening in the (19)60s was not happening in the (19)50s and the forties... Not the people that I knew. (01:32:37): Want to take a break here, Chris? (01:32:37): Where are we going on this one? This looks like... SM (01:32:37): Here we go. SM (01:32:53): This next question deals with the healing. I took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995 to see Senator Edmond Musky and the students and I came up with this question that they wanted to ask him based on the divisions that they saw on video. They were not alive in 1968 of the police and the students hitting each other. And they knew about the assassinations that year, Bobby and Martin Luther King. They knew that the president had resigned and they saw the burnings in the cities and so forth. So the question they wanted to ask is, do you feel that the boomer generation or that generation that was reared after World War II and was shaped by those first 20 to 30 years of the life and the divisions between those who supported the war and those who were against the war, those who supported the troops and were against the troop, blacks against whites, gays against straights, men against women, and all the other isms that we saw at that time. Do you think that because of all the tremendous divide that was happening in the Stratton atmosphere on every side that the boomer generation is going to go to its grave, like the civil War generation not healing? And I will tell you what must be said after I get your response. This is a whole issue of healing. And this is a lot of what I was going to talk to Dr. Lifton about, because he has written about healing with respect as the survivor concept and the whole concept of guilt and things like that. JL (01:34:44): Well, I think the notion of healing is kind of mythical because it is an idea that American society was- SM (01:34:55): No, that is that side. Oh, here we go. Wait a minute... Now that is the other side. It is an hour and a half, I am going to do this. I only started using two tapes in the last six interviews because somebody said if something happened to one, so... Go right ahead. JL (01:35:17): The notion of healing presumes that the society was, that there was a oneness or unity to the society. SM (01:35:28): Hold on one second, let us see which one. There is a... I guess that is... It has got to be here because I put the tape in here. SM (01:35:42): Very good. All right. Sorry. JL (01:35:48): The notion of healing presumes that there was a oneness or a unity to the society to begin with. And I think that the nine... Maybe some people coming out of the 1950s, maybe growing up in the 1950s, and I say it was only maybe, right, might have had that kind of illusion or an illusionary sense of America that was not already divided racially speaking or class wise. A lot of people of my age would remember Michael Harrington's book, "The Other America", is that what it was called? SM (01:36:39): Yes. That was the one Kennedy was in for... JL (01:36:42): A re-discovery, right, of poverty in America that had been there all along, but which a lot of things in the 1950s had sort of masked the presence of. People did not see it. So I guess what I am getting at here is that the notion of healing or the Boomer generation or (19)60s generation needing to heal has never been part of my thinking at all. Not at all. So will we heal or will we not heal? I guess I would be inclined to say that that is a wrong question. I mean, heading down that road probably is not going to produce anything that is very useful. SM (01:37:27): Somebody said that it might have been a better question by saying, simply put, those who served in the war and those who protested the war, whether they were going to be able to come to be, because certainly the wall was built to try to heal the Vietnam generation that served in Vietnam. And Jan Scruggs wrote "To Heal a Nation", that was his book. It was not only to heal the veterans and their families in a non-political way, but as he hoped would help heal the nation over this war that seemed to divide us so much. JL (01:38:05): Well, I have never felt like that there was a big divide between those who fought the war and those who opposed the war. I think that by the late (19)60s that there was a lot of mutuality between those two groups and large numbers of Vietnam veterans were coming home opposed to the war themselves. Some of them joined the anti-war movement. So I think the reality is one of more solidarity and unity than there is a wound between the two that needs to be healed. I do not think there is a lot of healing that needs to be done. Now on the margins, certainly there are people who came home from Vietnam, still very pro-war and very hostile to the anti-war movement. Chris Appy in his book "Working Class War" writes about that. More hostility that way than from the anti-war movement towards Vietnam veterans. Although again, on the margin, right, on the outer margin, I have heard some expressions from people who say that they were part of the anti-war movement and bad feelings towards people who fought the war. There was some of that. I do not know how much of that surfaced during the war years itself. I am not aware that it did. But in retrospect, there is some of that. But I think that is pretty marginal. SM (01:39:55): Musky did not even respond to 1968. I thought students thought he was going to talk about what was happening in the streets of Chicago and the divisions. He did not even mention it. His comment was, and he kind of gave a melodramatic pause, looked like he had a tear in his eye too, and he said, "We have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race." And then he just simply commented that, and he had just seen the Civil War series with Ken Burns and it had touched him because 430 bows of people had died in that war. Almost an entire generation of men. So that is what he was referring to. The Boomer generation. Do you like the term or is... Do you like the term the Boomer generation? JL (01:40:40): No. As a sociologist, no. I think it is kind of meaningless. I think it is too broad. I mean, even the arguments go on about how to date it, right? SM (01:40:53): Yeah. It is supposed to be (19)46 to (19)64, but some people do not like Boomers also do not like the Greatest Generation. They do not like Generation X. Millennials... JL (01:41:06): I am a sociologist. And one of my favorite sociologists is Karl Mannheim, who wrote a book called "The Problem of Generations." And he wrote that generations are in some sense about chronology and time, but they are also about politics and ideology and culture. And so people born at very different times can be part of the same generation, culturally speaking. And I find that to be a very powerful insight. So young people who were active against the war in the late 1960s had a lot in common with people much older than them who were part of the anti-fascist movement of the 1930s and the 1940s, or who were union organizers in the 1930s. And likewise today as a college professor, occasionally I meet students who are very young. They are in their twenties today, but they strike me as people who would have fit in comfortably with people of my own age. Or we could go out and have dinner tonight, and it would not be as though they are 22 and they are with a bunch of people who are 65. Right? It would be a very free flowing conversation there. So those are some of my thoughts on generations. SM (01:42:44): It is interesting that some of the people within the Boomer generation, and I know I do not like, I am starting to not like the term either, but is that they thought they were the most unique generation of history because they felt, and I know this from talking when I was in college, we were going to change the world. We are going to make it better. We are going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, and bring peace. Nothing will ever be the same. That was kind of an attitude. Maybe it was kind of naive, hopeful, what is the term I want to use? But not realistic. So when you hear people within the generation say, we were the most unique, how do you respond to that as a sociologist? JL (01:43:25): I do not hear people say that very often. SM (01:43:27): I mean, when they were young, did you ever hear anybody? JL (01:43:30): No. SM (01:43:31): No? JL (01:43:31): Not that I remember. No-no-no-no. SM (01:43:35): Well, there was that... I went to Bingham tonight, a few students that you were saying about that. What the thing here too is something that Phyllis Schlafly said to me while I interviewed her, and David Horowitz has written about in his books, and that is the troublemakers of the (19)60s, probably making reference to the new left, run today's universities and are in charge of the curriculum. They run the women's studies, the gay studies, the Holocaust studies, the Native American studies, Latin American studies, black Studies, environmental Studies, and Asian American studies. Basically, they run it all. And it is not the way people thought back because they are not conservatives in any way. So just your thoughts on that the troublemakers of the (19)60s run today's universities? JL (01:44:24): He might be right that they run all of those programs, but they do not run the universities. I mean that is sort of the whole and part kind of thing. The whole is larger than the sum of the parts. You know what I mean? You got people running all these specific programs. But in some... I mean, again, as a sociologist speaking of this, it might be the very fact that liberals run these programs that insulates the people at the top who really run. There is a compartmentalizing that goes on, a divide and conquer. I think in some ways when it comes down to budgeting and those kinds of things- SM (01:45:16): I worked at Westchester and there is only two faculty members that are willing to admit they are conservative, and one of them is very big. JL (01:45:24): Well, liberal is different than left too. SM (01:45:27): Yes. JL (01:45:27): That is another thing. I quite commonly say to students when it comes up in classes that the colleges are run by centris, right? SM (01:45:38): A la Bill Clinton. JL (01:45:40): And it is not. People on the right and people on the left are a minority in the college and university system, and we are tolerated. Both the right and the left are tolerated. The center is quite large, quite powerful. And most administrators, in my view, come out of the center. They are pretty tolerant, which I think is a characteristic of centris, but that is different than left. SM (01:46:14): Yeah. Although left could run these programs though. JL (01:46:18): Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Absolutely. SM (01:46:20): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? JL (01:46:26): I do not know if I have anything unique to say about that. Anything that... SM (01:46:36): A year, an event that you think started the (19)60s or... And when did it end? Was there a specific event and what was the watershed moment? JL (01:46:46): When did it end? On that, the one thing I would say on that is, I do not know. I think it just bled away. I do not know. Those years I lived through self- consciously, quite self-consciously. And I do not know, I would be very reluctant even to try to think about- SM (01:47:11): Beginnings and ends? JL (01:47:12): Beginnings and ends. SM (01:47:13): How about the watershed moment? Is there something that "This is a (19)60s..." Or actually, "This is when Boomers were young." And... JL (01:47:23): Yeah... SM (01:47:26): Same thing? JL (01:47:27): Same thing. And I think that has to do with my biography. I think the way I lived that period of time, I think makes me not a good... I know you are not looking for a source on that, that is not the point. But I did not have the consciousness coming through those periods to think in those kinds of terms. SM (01:47:53): How important were The Beats in shaping the attitudes of the (19)60s? Because they were in the (19)50s and they were the group that oftentimes was looked at as the beginning of non-conformity- JL (01:48:04): Conformists and the hippies. SM (01:48:06): And intellectuals who are not going to be part of the status quo. JL (01:48:12): Well, somehow or other they did. The Beats influenced me as a kind of nonconformist intellect. I think my own coming to self-consciousness as an intellectual was influenced. Some of the first poetry I ever read period was Ginsberg, and that is The Beats. And so that is important. SM (01:48:45): His poem Howl was banned in 1955 from schools. JL (01:48:51): Yeah. SM (01:48:51): [inaudible] JL (01:48:53): Yeah. And going to City Lights Bookstore and the old Midnight Special Books when it was in Venice. SM (01:49:06): I was in the Bay Area for a while and I never went to City Lights. I do not know where the heck I was, but... JL (01:49:09): Those were important. Those were kind of pilgrimages for me. Well, when I was in graduate school in Oregon and just kind of beginning to find myself, to me those were "wow" moments. SM (01:49:23): Yeah. Ferlinghetti still runs the City Lights Bookstore. It is amazing. He is 92. JL (01:49:29): I would like to go there with Hanoi Jane. SM (01:49:32): I bet you-you can get there. JL (01:49:33): It could be... SM (01:49:34): Just, I think all you have to do is contact, because I know that Paul Krassner has been there many times. Do you know Paul? JL (01:49:44): I know who he is. I have never met him. SM (01:49:44): Yeah, he has led me on to some good interviews. We are getting close to the end here, but this is an important one too. In your own words, describe the America that you see during the times that Boomers have been alive. Now I know, let us just forget the term Boomer, but the generation that grew up after World War II. And as Boomers age, and Boomers are now 64 years old, the oldest ones and 48, the youngest ones. So there is no spring chickens any more within the Boomer generation. And also, they now realize the concept of mortality that they are not going to live forever. But I am just going to mention these years and just give me a few thoughts. Nothing in light, just immediate reaction. 1946 to 1960, what does that mean to you? JL (01:50:35): Post-World War II America, riding the wave of victories in World War II and global respect, supremacy, domination, to use kind of pejorative terms, but riding the wave of success and victory. SM (01:51:05): 1961, this is the period when Kennedy started, to 1970? JL (01:51:20): Second wave, new Deal. The New Deal comes into its own. SM (01:51:33): 1971 to 1980, the (19)70s? JL (01:51:40): A retreat, the beginning of the downside. SM (01:51:48): Do you also believe that when you define the (19)60s, you really, the first three to four years of the (19)70s are the (19)60s too? Because (19)70, (19)71, and (19)72 and half of (19)73 were still the (19)60s. So just like you cannot put generations, sometimes you cannot put decades. JL (01:52:07): Right. No, I would agree with-with that. Although as the war and the anti-war movement began to fade in or decline in importance during those years, the counterculture begins really to come into its own, begins to gain dominance, gain influence. SM (01:52:38): How about 1981 to 1990? JL (01:52:43): Oh, the retrenchment, pessimism, loss of optimism, reaction. SM (01:53:01): Conservatives might say, we are back. That is what Ronald Reagan used to say. JL (01:53:07): Yeah. SM (01:53:08): And President Bush said the Vietnam syndrome is over. I do not think it was, but when you look at 1991 to 2000, the year of Bush and Clinton, what do you think of in that decade? JL (01:53:26): The beginning of a new Cold War against the Arab world, the Islamist world, or some... Yeah, a new war period. SM (01:53:42): And then that 2001 to 2010 with George Bush II and now President Obama, that decade? JL (01:53:54): The decade of fear. SM (01:53:54): Terrorism. JL (01:53:56): Terrorism, fear. Yeah. SM (01:54:00): Now, terrorism was also part of the (19)80s with taking over of airplanes, and it was kind of evolving. And of course you had the Olympics in 72 where the terrorists came in. So you saw some signs and things were coming. What do you think of Boomers will do in their remaining years? A lot of people think that they are going to change the retirement. They have still got 15 to 20 years left because a lot of them have taken care of themselves. They will live longer, particularly females. Think you expect anything from them? I do not. JL (01:54:36): You do not? I do. SM (01:54:38): Yeah. JL (01:54:38): I expect reforms in healthcare. Elder care. Jane Fonda's new book, new project is on aging. And Fonda has always been on, I do not know, the cutting edge or she has always had a sense of what was going on. And that is not to predict that she is right. Again, that, that is not my point. But Fonda, as a public face of that generation of people and this age group that you are talking about here, I think that that is promising. I kind of bond as a bell weather of where our generation might go. SM (01:55:40): It is interesting. Dennis Hopper just passed away. He had that ad on tv, but you guys have got to plan because you are going to live a lot longer. That ad was under quite a time and he was kind of a symbolic of a generation, even though he is a little older and now he has passed on, you do not see the ads anymore. A question on the books of the period, there is three books I wanted to ask you on. SM (01:56:03): On the books of the period, there is three books I wanted to ask you on, seeing if they were good books or you read them and they were right on, or a piece of junk, basically. Theodore Roszak's book, The Making of a Counterculture. Did you ever read it and what did you think of it? JL (01:56:18): Sure. One of the books that educated me about the counterculture. I read it in graduate school when I was trying to understand the counterculture and what it was. I knew the counterculture through books like that more than I knew through participation in the counterculture. SM (01:56:40): How about The Greening of America by Charles Reich? JL (01:56:43): Read it. SM (01:56:45): Seen to be a classic book. JL (01:56:47): Oh, my. Gosh, it is so important for me, but I am at a loss for words to say what that was, because it was so long ago and I have never talked about it. I do not think I have... I have never heard that title. SM (01:57:05): Those two books are very influential to me too, and they were powerful. JL (01:57:09): But I do not remember how and why. SM (01:57:11): They were required in grad school to read. I interviewed Daniel Bell, the great associate from Harvard, and I asked him about these two books. He said, "They are terrible books. They do not have any ideas in them," because he is... Then I asked him, "Well, how about Eric Erickson's books?" because they are also very good, and the one... Oh, come on, Steve. Kenneth Keniston. He said Kenneth Keniston's books- JL (01:57:38): Youth and Rebellion. SM (01:57:43): Yeah, those were good. They were good. And then the other one was The Culture of Narcissism, which a lot of people... Christopher Lasch. JL (01:57:49): Yes. Yes-yes-yes. SM (01:57:50): That is where a lot of the Boomers were heading or whatever. JL (01:57:53): A lot where they were heading, uh-huh. All these are... SM (01:58:00): I am down to my last... Do you have five minutes more? JL (01:58:04): Sure. SM (01:58:07): These are just real fast responses to... This is what I did yesterday with Dr. Baxendale. And quick, real fast responses. What do you think of these people, or this? What do you think about The Wall, the Vietnam Memorial? Just a quick... JL (01:58:23): Do not like it, did not like it. Did not like it, do not like it. SM (01:58:30): In what way in particular do not you like it? JL (01:58:33): It evokes wrong feelings. It makes Vietnam veterans the victims of the war and shifts the sentiments away from the Vietnamese as being victims of our aggression. That is it. SM (01:58:59): What do you think of Kent State and Jackson State? JL (01:59:06): One thing I have never been clear on is whether they belong in the same sentence. I just do not know, because I do not know... Jackson State, I have never quite been able to get a fix on what that was about. SM (01:59:19): 10 days later [inaudible]- JL (01:59:20): 10 days later. Was it? SM (01:59:23): Yeah, it was. JL (01:59:25): Somewhat... SM (01:59:28): At Kent State, they have made an effort to make sure that when they could do their remembrance, that they conclude them both and they bring speakers in from both. Because it was a loss no one... Whenever I talk about Kent State, so predominantly white campus and black campus, they did not talk about it. There was also Orangeburg too, earlier on. JL (01:59:45): I wrote a large piece in the Chronicle of Higher Education this spring. I do not know if you saw this- SM (01:59:49): No, I did not. JL (01:59:49): ...if you know about that. Yeah, it was the cover. It was a cover story. There was the weekly insert. SM (01:59:59): Oh, yes, I know. I know. JL (02:00:00): It is very good. And my piece was the cover piece, April 26th edition, I think, of it. SM (02:00:09): And what was that on? JL (02:00:09): On Kent State. SM (02:00:11): Oh, really? JL (02:00:12): Yeah. The title of it is The Times, They Changed. The point of it was why is there so much quiescence on American campuses today, 40 years after Kent State? And what I was saying, it was not the students. It was not the students, it was the times. Sociologically. You know what I am saying? The times made the students then. The times today are making the students now. SM (02:00:46): Very good point. JL (02:00:47): With an emphasis on the management of higher education, the administration of higher education, and the proliferation of a lot of those programs that you mentioned is part of that. A lot of those programs came out of that time period. And the effect of a lot of those programs is a cooling out effect. It is to say would be activists, "Here, you have got your program, you have got your budget, you have got your offices, now get to work." And that has worked. And the thing that is worked better than any is study abroad programs. SM (02:01:33): No, they are good. Yeah, I know. Every student I know is doing it. Every student, for at least one semester, and I wish I had done it. JL (02:01:41): Usually their junior year. But it completely fractures campus politics. It completely fractures political organization on campus. SM (02:01:52): As well as the amount of work they have to do to survive. They got to work so they do not have time for other things. JL (02:01:58): Do not have time for other things. So all of that is in there. SM (02:02:02): A few more and then we are done. I find it interesting that the women nurses that were murdered in 1989 up in Canada, that the Women's Center will now have annual events just about on every campus in remembrance of those female students, think 11 or 12, yet universities have never remembered Kent State, ever. And they tried to not remember it at Kent State, but now it is [inaudible] you go back. And the [inaudible] University, the (19)60s was the homecoming theme a year ago. And I would have nothing to do with it, because I was there. They were making it look like everything was happy, rock and roll. And yeah, there is a lot of good, happy remembering times, but I think they were taking away from the serious parts of that particular thing. JL (02:02:51): Last... SM (02:02:52): Go ahead. JL (02:02:53): Well, last summer at this time, (20)09, 40th anniversaries of Woodstock were all over the US News media. Everybody was talking about Woodstock and, "Were your parents at Woodstock?" Huge big deal. What, three months later, 40th anniversary of the October moratorium. Not a word. Not a word. November moratorium of (19)69. Not a word. Very little leading up to Kent State, 40th anniversary of Kent State. There was not much. Kent State came very close, the 40th anniversary came very close to going with no attention. SM (02:03:43): See, I have been there the last four years at the events, and if it was not for the [inaudible] of the world and the people pushing on that student organization, which is about 15 people... JL (02:03:53): The piece I started to write on Kent State was, I was going to start out with Woodstock and compare 40th... SM (02:04:00): Most of my interviews have been long because of... Anyway. JL (02:04:15): Yeah. SM (02:04:18): How much time do you have? JL (02:04:19): I really should... As quickly as possible, we should wrap up. SM (02:04:22): Just real fast, just say one or two words. Free speech movement. JL (02:04:32): Well, very, very important as a run-up to the anti-war movement. SM (02:04:44): Freedom Summer. JL (02:04:45): I was not part of it. I knew it was happening. SM (02:04:55): Seemed to be a great education vehicle for many of the activists down the road. The Montgomery Bus Boycott, which is Dr. King's big thing that he came to prominence. Any thoughts on Emmett Till? JL (02:05:08): These are all things, the civil rights movement. I knew about it through the news, but did not have any involvement in it. SM (02:05:15): The March on Washington (19)63? JL (02:05:17): No. SM (02:05:18): How about 1968 as a year? What are your thoughts on the year? JL (02:05:22): Oh, well, I got drafted. I got drafted in 1968. My dad died in 1968. 1968 was a keystone year, a watershed year for me. SM (02:05:33): These other events, Chicago Eight trial, the Gulf of Tonkin... Well, that was (19)64. And Tet, which was a major- JL (02:05:42): Well, I got drafted because of Tet. I started paying attention probably with Tet that year. SM (02:05:50): These are two things that we are not very proud of as Americans, and that is My Lei and Attica. Just your comments on those two. JL (02:06:00): Attica, I followed quite closely. It was shortly after I got home from Vietnam, I am thinking, right? Was 1970, (19)71? SM (02:06:10): Yeah. And that is Governor Rockefeller. JL (02:06:12): Yeah. Yeah. Also, I was in graduate school, and what was then known as the Radical Criminology movement was quite powerful, on the West Coast anyway, because of the crim school in Berkeley. And so I started following criminology issues and crime issues quite a lot. My Lei was important because I had been to Vietnam and [inaudible]- SM (02:06:48): Clicking all day long here. This the last. Yeah, that is the last on that one. Okay, good. He has done. I am retiring him. I will not go over any more of these. There is quite a few. You can see I have quite a few here, and I am not going to go over these. The last question is when the best history books and sociology books are written when the Boomer generation has passed on. I say this because I drive to Gettysburg 10 times a year. I go to the battlefield to understand what it was like for that tremendous loss of what war's all about. And they have a statue there of the last man who participated in the Civil War. He died in 1924. I always sit there and I say, "Geez, the last person who was in the Civil War died in 1924." The books are carrying the message on. So the question I am asking, what will be the legacy of this generation that grew up after World War II in the history books, once they are long gone? JL (02:07:59): I think it is going to be a positive legacy. It is going to be positive. I think the legacy will be building on the best of what came out of the Greatest Generation. SM (02:08:19): Yeah, it is interesting because we are the kids of the Greatest Generation. JL (02:08:23): Yeah. Yeah. I think the Boomer generation might be the best and most important product of the Greatest Generation. SM (02:08:32): It is interesting because you told me already how important your parents were, and I know how important my parents were. So when we are critical of the (19)50s for all the things we have discussed about the things behind the scenes that were happening, I do not blame my parents. My parents did everything in their lives to give me the happiness and health, and devoted their lives to their kids. Do you feel the same way? JL (02:09:00): Well, see, I do not think I have said along the way, in fact, I maybe sort of implied that I... In fact, I said the (19)50s for me was a time of hope and promise and optimism. That was my (19)50s. SM (02:09:19): And that was my (19)50s. JL (02:09:23): I think because of my parents, and they were products of the thirties and the forties. So I think that is where I am. That is where I am. I know that my (19)50s was not everybody's (19)50s, right? SM (02:09:43): Yeah. Certainly African-Americans and certainly women, in some respects, although some women did have a happy 1950s because they were expected to be mothers. And very few, they ended up being teachers, but they all were expecting to be married by a certain age and raise kids. They did not think of other things until all these movements happened, and a lot of the people in the (19)50s really did not start thinking about these things until the (19)60s. But I do not think they ever blamed their parents, in most respects. Well, thank you very much. When I go to the Vietnam Memorial, and I have gone now since 1994 in honor of Lewis Puller, the one thing about... Speaker 3 (02:10:24): Hey. SM (02:10:26): Hey, how you doing? Speaker 3 (02:10:26): All right. Hey. Hi, Jerry. JL (02:10:28): Hi. SM (02:10:29): Let me see now. The people they dislike the most are still Jane Fonda, because you see the stickers they sell about Jane Fonda, the decals that they wear on their clothes. They did do not like McNamara, because a couple times I have been to The Wall and they had actually had McNamara's book there with bullet holes through it. And they did not like Bill Clinton. JL (02:10:56): They are not going to do that to my book. SM (02:11:00): No. And they did not like Bill Clinton when he came there. There was some booing, some of them booing because he did not... So there was that kind of thing. There is still that strong animosity toward Jane Fonda, and Lewis Puller and Jan Scruggs, and I think the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund have done a great job in terms of trying to do their best to heal from the divisions in America by bringing Bill Clinton to The Wall and bringing some others. I often ask the vets if they brought Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, what kind of reception they would get, although probably they would not do it, number one. If McNamara was alive, would he ever have had the courage to go there now, just to protect them? But I do not know if you have any other thoughts on anything I was saying or... JL (02:11:57): The only thought is that it is... I thought where you were maybe leading with this, is why do people like this hang on? I think it is a lost war phenomenon. It is what happens after a war is lost. People have a hard time letting go of it. They want it to come out differently. Lifton would be the one to talk about sort of collective trauma. So cultural expressions come from that and the people who then are held responsible for the loss of the war are not let go of in those memories. Those things hang on. They become hang-ups, in a sense, and people cannot get beyond those. And World War I, it is not quite like Vietnam, but the outcome of it is not conclusive like World War II is. First of all, it is not a very popular war in the United States, World War I. A lot of dissent. SM (02:13:15): Very short too. JL (02:13:16): It is short. A lot of dissent. And then 12 years or so after the end of the war, you got the Depression, and World War I veterans are still looking for their bonus pay and so forth. That all gets scuttled by the Hoover administration, so you have veterans marching on... So their sense of themselves as veterans and the controversy surrounding that, the controversy surrounding the war, the nature of the war, then causes them to think about what they did in the war, what happened to them in the war. And then, 10 years after the war, they are still living their lives as veterans yet, because they are looking for the bonus payments and so forth. So there is a messy post-war period after World War I, not after World War II, but it is pretty cut and dried. SM (02:14:24): GI Bill. JL (02:14:24): War is over, people come home, the GI Bill. The country moves on. America into its glory days. Vietnam, again, the post-war legacy of Vietnam, very much more like World War I. It is messy. SM (02:14:40): Then you had the blip of the Korean War, some people say the lost war, and they did not get a whole lot either. JL (02:14:49): Well, Korea sort of gets subsumed, I think, in World War II culture. People are still looking at World War II movies and watching Victory at Sea on television. SM (02:15:11): Victory at Sea. That is another thing that you grew up in as Boomers. JL (02:15:14): Boy, we sure did. SM (02:15:15): [inaudible] television, and that guy with a voice and... JL (02:15:20): All right, I got [inaudible]- SM (02:15:21): I am going to take four more pictures and you are out of here. I know you probably do not like taking a picture of your book, but I am going to... And then I have a mannequin of Jane Fonda. I am going to bring it out here. Sorry. There we go. Get that closer in there. You going to talk to Jane at all? Do you talk to her at all? JL (02:15:45): No. No, I do not. SM (02:15:47): There you go. Ready. JL (02:15:51): Have emailed a little bit. SM (02:15:54): Here we go. I am going to take a picture right here. Right at one. Two. And the last one but not least. Ready? Three. JL (02:16:06): This is for the before and after? SM (02:16:08): Yeah. You look a little more tired. Ready. That is it. Very good. JL (02:16:15): All right. SM (02:16:19): Well, thank you very much. Pleasure meeting you. JL (02:16:21): My pleasure. SM (02:16:23): I hope you do another myth book. Are you thinking of doing another myth book? JL (02:16:29): I am not. No. I am thinking of doing whatever I can to make this book successful still and get out of it everything that can be gotten out of it. One idea that some theaters are interested in, I have got one planned now and two others, the Fonda films that I use in this book, the idea would be a mini-series, maybe done over one long weekend or over a few weekends, and then me talk about why I think those films work the way they do in the culture, the way I write about them in the book here. There is two or three theaters, small community independent theaters, that are interested in doing that. So it is things like that that I want to do before I move on to something else. SM (02:17:27): Ever thought of going out with Jane? I mean, maybe do two or three... She probably charges an arm and a leg, but she is so rich she does not need the money. But going to a place like the Ritz Theater in Philadelphia. The Ritz Theater is the one, The Most Dangerous Man In America, which was the film on Daniel Ellsberg. JL (02:17:46): Great film. SM (02:17:46): The William Kunstler movie that the daughter came and spoke at the Ritz Theater in Philly. I know there is also a really good theater at Kent State, which is the Kent State Theater, which is really... This kind of stuff would go over well there, because they have a big following from the remembrance and everything. JL (02:18:06): I would love to. Any chance that I could have to do something programmatically with Fonda and the book and films I think is just a terrific idea. I think what it needs is a venue. SM (02:18:21): I know Dr. Greene. I only got to know him because of my dad before he died, was an athlete there. And Dr. Greene is the main historian at Cazenovia College. Got a book coming out on the (19)60s. Now he is kind of a conservative guy. But I am trying to talk to them about where I am going to donate all my stuff, my archives and stuff. And in my parents' honor. Everything is for my parents, because I love them desperately. He is bringing in James Kunen, who wrote The Strawberry Statement. So I could talk to him, because he does the interviews. So you might be a good person to come in and talk about Hanoi Jane. If I was still working at the universities, I would probably be bringing you in in a minute, but I am not there anymore. So I might mention your name to Dr. Greene in August. I am going to be up there just before Labor Day. And I am interviewing Minnie Bruce Pratt. I do not know if you know her. She is at Syracuse University, a distinguished professor. I am interviewing her and then I am going to go over there. But there is a lot about this, and I think the way you write this, it really can appeal to young people. And movies, doing it through the movies is how a lot of young people... Today we did a movie series and we discussed what the movie meant. And we get people there. We link to the academic classroom. So I think there is a lot here. And she reinvents herself many times in her life, and she also has an unbelievable sense of humor. I have seen her on TV. She is a very serious person when it gets to politics, but I am telling you, she also has a great sense of humor. JL (02:20:10): Yeah. I saw the serious side of her, the time that I spent with her. A real no bullshit kind of person. SM (02:20:20): What is amazing is that relationship with Tom Hayden. I can understand the Ted Turner one. I can understand the vet, Roger Vadim. I do not understand the Tom Hayden one. Tom Hayden, historically, everybody respects him as an activist and a great writer, assertive and everything, but he has not good with women. I have had several people say that they admire him as an activist and what he has done with his life, but in terms of how he treats women, it is not good. JL (02:20:51): Turns out his, I think, still current wife, Barbara is her name... I met Barbara when Barbara was in high school in Vancouver, British Columbia, when I was up there, mini tour with my first book, One Union In Wood, on the wood products industry. I had interviewed a then older guy up there. It is kind of serendipitous now, but she was there in this bar where I was with these other folks. A couple years ago, I was back in Vancouver for a memorial service for this older guy, and Hayden came to that with Barbara. And she said to me, she said, "I bet you do not remember me, do you?" And I said, "No." And then she told me where we had met. SM (02:21:55): Oh, my God. JL (02:21:56): And I had a great time with Hayden. SM (02:21:58): Oh, he is great, and he is great to talk to. JL (02:22:01): He is so [inaudible]. SM (02:22:03): He sits down like this and... That is the Hayden that I like to remember. That is the one I always want to remember. JL (02:22:10): I just love the guy. SM (02:22:12): Yeah. I guess he is just struck some of the women the wrong way. And I am not saying that Fonda criticism, but some of the feminists have known some of the things he has done. So they do not consider him a, what is that word, a big supporter of women, I guess, in the long run. JL (02:22:37): All right, my friend. SM (02:22:39): All right. JL (02:22:39): Got to go. SM (02:22:39): All right. Thank you. JL (02:22:40): Do you get a break before your next interview? SM (02:22:42): Yeah, I think it is at two o'clock, with Dr. [inaudible]. I have his... What time is it? JL (02:22:46): [inaudible]. SM (02:22:48): Oh yeah, half hour. Okay, great talking. JL (02:22:50): All right, good talking to you. SM (02:22:51): Yep. Have a safe trip back. JL (02:22:53): Thank you. Thank you. SM (02:22:54): And I will be emailing you, and maybe we can have a three-way conversation with Jane Fonda. JL (02:23:02): I am going to be... Well, I am not sure actually. I may be in Philadelphia [inaudible]. SM (02:23:12): If you are, let me know, because I am working on the book. I will be hibernating then, doing transcribing and... JL (02:23:16): Maybe get together. SM (02:23:16): Yeah. JL (02:23:16): Okay. All right. Bye. SM (02:23:16): Bye. Have a good day. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Jerry Lembcke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lembcke, Jerry, 1943- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Sociologists; Lembcke, Jerry, 1943--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Jerry Lembcke is an associate professor emeritus of Sociology at Holy Cross University. He has a Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Oregon. He is the author of <em>The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam</em>&nbsp;and <em>Hanoi Jane: War, Sex, and Fantasies of Betrayal</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.77a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.77b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 144:35 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1b0ef99ddb7a7e56b70f1074434cecf0.jpg 536c14a8456bb5ce32012c41c14be12d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5111a50ae3c22fbcf16b15f4621d181c.mp3 6929a256181a5f65964b01dcd873782c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2002-07-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James J. Kirschke Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;James J. Kirschke is currently an English professor at Villanova University. Kirschke earned his Bachelor's degree from LaSalle College, and his Master's degree and Ph.D. in English at Temple University. He served in Vietnam until was medically retired in 1968. He recounted his experiences in an autobiography entitled Not Going Home Alone. He is also the author of Henry James and Impressionism, Willa Cather and Six Writers from the Great War, and Gouverneur Morris (1752-1816): Author, Statesman, and Man of the World.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">James J. Kirschke is currently an English professor at Villanova University. Kirschke earned his Bachelor's degree from LaSalle College, and his Master's degree and Ph.D. in English at Temple University. He served in Vietnam until he was medically retired in 1968. He recounted his experiences in an autobiography entitled <em>Not Going Home Alone</em>. He is also the author of <em>Henry James and Impressionism</em>, <em>Willa Cather and Six Writers from the Great War</em>, and <em>Gouverneur Morris (1752-1816): Author, Statesman, and Man of the World</em>.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John F Kennedy's Election; Nineteen sixties; Ron Castillo; Grace Slick; Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties government distrust; Bobby Mueller; Disabled veterans; La Salle University in nineteen-sixties.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">John F Kennedy's Election; Nineteen sixties; Ron Castillo; Grace Slick; Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties government distrust; Bobby Mueller; Disabled veterans; La Salle University in nineteen-sixties.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 91:45 Subject LCSH College teachers; Villanova University; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Kirschke, James J.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. James J. Kirschke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kirschke, James J. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Villanova University; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Kirschke, James J.--Interviews Description An account of the resource James J. Kirschke is currently an English professor at Villanova University. Kirschke earned his Bachelor's degree from LaSalle College, and his Master's degree and Ph.D. in English at Temple University. He served in Vietnam until he was medically retired in 1968. He recounted his experiences in an autobiography entitled <em>Not Going Home Alone</em>. He is also the author of <em>Henry James and Impressionism</em>, <em>Willa Cather and Six Writers from the Great War</em>, and <em>Gouverneur Morris (1752-1816): Author, Statesman, and Man of the World</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-07-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.76 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 91:45 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7df87c2ab888cdd3ec67f59289d86412.jpg ebeffdbc19ee8c70f9014f97fc206f18 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11be79a6355f5661aa9e9db8eb3ab242.mp3 8eeeb87c626feac31d716352c8a64208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;1997-02-15&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15359,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,14281427],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">1997-02-15</span> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wally Kennedy Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Reagan Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:36 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">American Woman; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Platoon; Catholic Church; Dr. Spock; Ronald Reagan; Healing; Vietnam veterans; Cambodian Campaign; Activism; Civil Rights protest; Ken Burns; Civil War; Empowerment; Parents; College; Birmingham campaign; Ted Turner; Tom Hayden; Jerry Rubin; Timothy Leary.</span> Subject LCSH Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Wally Kennedy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kiernan Sullivan Date of interview: 15 February 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:05 Make sure it is up. I-I am- WK: 00:06 This is a little, uh - This is a little less noisy in my office. SM: 00:09 Right. Well, one of the main projects I am trying to work on here is to try to evaluate the, uh, the boomers and their impact over the last 30 years. One of the inspirations to that [inaudible] to lead into the first question is, um, Boomer generation, um, when you hear about it in the news today, many times politicians will make kind of statements about the boomer generation is, uh, being the reason why we have all the problems today based on their lifestyles, the free love issue, the issue of drugs in America, they will, they will kind of pinpoint back to that era that look at a lot of the, um, the protests and lack of respect for authority that was supposedly happening in that time that is carried over today. So, my very first question to you, Wally is, what are your thoughts about individuals who generalize, uh, the boomer generation will, will pinpoint the boomer generation that will be the lightning rod for all of the ills of today's society. WK: 01:02 W-well, first of all, obviously, I-I would be defensive of people who are my age, uh, and in five or 10 years younger and five or 10 years older who have gotten this this, uh, name is the rumors. Um. I think that you have to water seeks its own level. And I think that we have, we have sought our own body. Um. I remember very clearly what it was like to grow up the 1950s in the early 1960s in America to then, and I think up until, until, uh, well, in the (19)70s, uh, especially, American government was, um, uh, somewhat repressive. I think our society was somewhat repressive. Uh, I think it was somewhat Puritan. Uh, I think it was controlled by the post-World War Two veterans. Uh, Bill Clinton is the first non-World War II veteran that we have ever had in the White House. And not saying that he is good, it is just that is just a fact of life. He was the first Boomer we have ever had in our house, in the, in the White House. So, I think that, first of all, to blame the ills of society on the baby boomers. I think it is a tremendous misnomer. Um, I think you have to take each revolution one at a time, um, for example, if and I can go into greater detail i-in other questions, but let us just say, for, for the sake of example, the sexual r-revolution, because that is, that is a flash point. Um, was there a sexual revolution? Yes, but this is pre aids. This is post pill. This is a period of time where the worst thing that could happen to you, if you were using the pill, or that your partner was using the pill, the worst thing that could happen to you is you would get a venereal disease, which was easily curable, easily curable by, uh, going to your doctor, getting a shot or getting a pill. And that was, that was the end of the consequence if, in fact, protection was being used and the pill is being used. Um, we now live in an era where if you sleep with the wrong person, you can die. That was not a reality in the 1960s but, but what brought that revolution about was really a convergence of, I think, of two or three different things. And I can, I can tell you one thing right now, I was brought up in a very religious Catholic home. I am still a practicing Catholic, and I will be probably till the day I die. But not only the Catholic Church, but America in general, was a very repressive sexual society prior to the 1960s, um, it was something that was not talked about. Uh, I love my father very dearly. He was a very well-educated man, but basically, I learned much more on the street about sexuality than I ever learned from him. And this is a man with a PhD and a woman and a wife who is, you know, college. Um, all I learned about sexuality I learned in the street. And I did think that there was a significant- [intercom interruption] That is something we are going to have to live with, unfortunately. [inaudible] Um, I think there was a significant resentment on the part of a lot of so-called Baby Boomers that all the all the information about sexuality, uh, had to be squeezed out of legitimate sources if they got it at all. So, is it any wonder that Playboy magazine or other instruments of sexuality skyrocketed during the 1960s because the thirst for good information, for something that is very natural and very legitimate, very in, in, something that is a part of all of us just simply was not there? I mean, you can scour textbooks that we used in high school biology classes in the 1960s and there would be vague references to zygotes, and you know that in many cases, they would not even use the term sperm, you know, which now rolls off the tongue. I mean, as a talk show host, I probably used the word 300 times in the last year, um, but there was a real, honest to God, vacuum of legitimate information that every young man and young woman deserved to have t-to say nothing about the fact that they were raging hormones and all that other stuff. But basically, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning that. Uh, we lived in a very repressive culture concerning the sexuality of women, which is, which was one of the, one of the fundamentals and what the genesis of the women's movement that started in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, uh, before it became politicized, much of what the women's movement was all about was around the fact that women had literally, literally been kept in a second-class status, not only in terms of their power within our culture, but also sexually. Women were viewed as the sexual objects of men. They were viewed as, as the object to be enjoyed by men. And the idea that they could have a sexuality of their own and that they could enjoy sexuality was preposterous. Smart Women always knew that. Women who-who empowered themselves, always knew that. But the average American woman was-was not thought of as in terms of her sexuality. Her sexuality was looked at for two things. Number one, it was to police her man, and number two was to have babies. And so, if our-our generation, the people who graduated from college in the early in the mid (19)60s and to the mid (19)70s, had the audacity to say, wait a minute, there has got to be more to life than that. Then so be it. Are we responsible for a million teenage pregnancies? Are we responsible for, uh, for a million abortions in America? I doubt it. I do not think so. I think that is an awfully, uh, heavy burden to put on a generation of people. Are we responsible for saying that people are sexual? Yes, good, good. SM: 07:08 This leads me right into, um, the question dealing with, uh, your thoughts, uh, y-you deal with the sexual revolution here, but your basic thoughts on whether the boomer generation was a more of a positive or a negative, [inaudible background noise] and, um, in response, SM: 07:23 If you can list a, list a review of the, uh, things that you think were positive about the boomers and some of the negatives about the boomers. [intercom interruption] WK: 07:31 Well, I think it- I very much fall down in, in the direction of the positives. Um, first of all the positives: I think the single biggest positive to come out of the 1960s which was largely creation of the boomers in, in all men of goodwill and women of goodwill, was the Civil Rights Movement. Uh, America entered the 1960s with the status quo perfectly content to marginalize in every way, shape or form, black men and women and America entered the 1970s, uh, with largely because of Dr. King, but also because of the help of, of boomers, both black and white, um, committed to the idea that that was never going to happen again, and that the second-class status of African Americans, which to this Day still needs very close scrutiny, um, but that was forever changed. And I think that it was the boomers who said, Dad, why are those dogs going after those kids in Birmingham? Dad, how come those cops are turning those fire hoses on legitimate protesters in Alabama? And, and it was the boomers who raised those questions, I-I think that that is that is so-so I think in terms of long, lasting effects and positive effects, I think that number one would be the civil rights movement, although one could arguably say even in 1997 that there was still plenty of room for improvement. Um, second thing, um, I do not think that there is any question that we, we legitimately pressured the United States government into getting out of Vietnam. Unfortunately, too late. There has always been the argument as to whether or not had JFK lived after the 1964 election, would he have withdrawn the troops because he already saw the writing on the wall, because at the time, at the time that JFK was killed, about 150 advisors had already been killed, and all I know is that one of the joys of my life was that I had the opportunity to interview the late Dean Rusk after he had left government service, he went back to the University of Georgia, and he was on the, the law school, and I asked him that. Now I read different answers in print, but I told I will tell you that he told me face to face, that Kennedy planned to withdraw the troops from Vietnam after the 1964 election, and the only reason is that, that he kept them there is because he was hoping like hell that the South Vietnamese would take these people literally for what they were, which was advisors, take their advice and, and be able to mobilize a standing army which would be able to withstand the North that was point number one. And point number two was purely political. Kennedy was a political animal, and Kennedy realized that he was going to be probably running against Goldwater, who was this arch conservative, and he did not want to have to deal with Goldwater pointing a finger in his face, saying you were responsible for making South Vietnamese Communist. Because remember, back in those days, the single worst thing that you could be in the universe was a communist. So, if the domino theory were true and South Vietnam, South Vietnam had fallen, then Kennedy would have taken the burden for it, but Dean Rusk told me JFK was going to pull the troops from Vietnam. I think. I started my college career debating a member of the students for the democratic society. I ended my college career out in the street with them. Um, there, there came a point at which my upbringing and my knowledge and my looking at what was going on, just said, this is wrong. This is so wrong. And then there came the point where I think we all realized this government, which is a this was an absolute first, and you can give 100 percent credit to the baby boomers, although it has a lasting effect, and I think a very negative effect. The baby boomers were the first to say, “This government is lying.” Now, all the, all the, you know, the American Legion guys with their hats on, who, what, who fucked the big one [inaudible] would listen to us and say, [inaudible] these kids are patriotic. I mean, the American government does not lie. We know for a fact. We know for a fact the government lied. We know the President lied, we know Johnson lied, we know Nixon lied. We know that the body count was absolute horse shit. Um, so baby boomers, the college students at the time, were forcing the, the government to come clean. A-And I think Nixon put us in a position, and I think history has, has backed me up in this where, you know, he polarized the country to such a great deal that basically, we were on the we were on the brink of civil war. It was the young versus the old, and I was proud to be among the young. And do not think I did not have a number of set twos with my own with my own father, about this, because he was a World War Two veteran and the read. But the reality is that even he and most Americans by the time, by the time the Paris Peace Talks, came up with some kind of a conclusion, everybody was so sick of it and wanted it to end so badly, but they lied to us, so we were responsible for that. However, there is a downside, and the downside is this, we are responsible we are now in our (19)30s and (19)40s, not (19)30s. We are in our (19)40s and (19)50s. We are responsible for-for making our children believe that government can never be honest. We are responsible for constantly bringing up Vietnam, bringing up Watergate, bringing up government deception, to the point where you have one of the most popular shows on television, The X Files, the predicate of which is the government deceives. And the government, the government will do. The government is a power unto itself, and the government will lie and cheat and steal and do whatever it damn well pleases. And so that is a [inaudible] as so, many of the things that we did well, were advantages at the time. Now they have become disadvantages, because now you take your average 18 or 19- or 20-year-old, and sometimes they just flat out, flat out, do not believe what the government says, which is ironic, because the government is Bill Clinton, who's a who's a baby boomer. SM: 13:39 This gets right into the issue of trust, which is later on in [inaudible mumbling], go right into it. Um, there is a feeling that I have had for quite some time when I deal with college students, although I have been hiring for 18 years, that, um, college students today certainly question, just like we questioned when we were young. They want to have answers. But there is a I am wondering that this concept of trust, the psychologists will say that people cannot succeed, or one cannot succeed in life unless you trust others, you know, trust your parents, trust your family. You got to have a sense of trust. But many of the boomers came out of that era because of what happened with Watergate, because of the lives of Vietnam, because of many other, um, crises that have happened with political leaders, of lacking trust in the political process, uh, lacking trust in anybody in a position of power and responsibility, and that not only includes political leaders, but it includes ministers, head, CEOs of corporations. Um, a question I am kind of leaning at here is, um, how you know you referred to it here, but how important and how serious is this issue of trust in America today, not only for people our age, the boomers, for the parents of these young people, but the children of boomers, and in, in some respects, even, uh, the people World War Two, generation from the, uh, from World War Two, because, uh, they all experience what we all went through in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And so, this issue of trust, where do you place that on the scale? Say, one to ten in terms of how serious it is in this country, or lack thereof? WK: 15:04 Oh, I-I think if I had to-to look at America 1997 I would, I would label lack of trust is, is probably one of the four or five most significant problems in our culture today. So, I am serious about our being somewhat responsible for the-the way America is today in, in a negative sense. I do not know that it is not I do not know that it that was our responsibility to pull back. I mean, we-we had Watergate, so we elected a Georgia, Georgia Peanut Farmer as president, and we expected him to cure all of our ills he did, and, and so therefore we became disappointed in him, and then we went with-with Reagan and the Republicans who, who told us what we wanted to hear. And now we know that with things like Iran Contra, there were convenient lapses of memory, where, where Ronald Reagan applied, and there was ample evidence to indicate that George Bush line. So, I think that, I think the trust in government issue is that if we set up a government whereby, in a democracy, the only way you can keep staying in your own government is by lying, or not necessarily lying, but telling people what they want to hear. Because, after all, elections are a popularity contest, so that that is that is a difficult dilemma, but at least, I think we are much more out in the open about it. I see like Senate races, though, like this. The Torricelli Zimmer race last year, um, turned my stomach, because it gets to the point where you have, you have two men who sink so low in their quest for-for high office, and it is high office representing the-the great state of New Jersey in the in the United States Senate is a high office, and it is a wonderful honor. To, to sink so low, and in this, this finger waving of who is more liberal? You are a liberal, you are a liberal, you are a liberal, whereas you, you had this, this overweight, blow hard Republican party spokesman with a three-hour radio program who has no challenge at all, and basically, he has turned the word liberal into one of the filthiest words in the English language. So, so, of course, if I am 19 years old, who am I going to trust? Who can you trust? Um, I also I feel sadly because I think that, that I hope I am wrong, but I but I think that one has to, as one gets older, one has to have a spiritual trust in a higher power, whether you call it God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, one has to come to grips with why we are here, what we are here for. And I think that that was something that, frankly, you asked me one of the disadvantages of the boomers? We convinced ourselves that we put ourselves here, we convinced ourselves that we-we did all these wonderful things, and we convinced ourselves that we could do very well without that, without anybody's help, especially the help of a higher power, because we had religion jammed down our throats when we were kids, and once we became adults, we did not want to have to deal with it. And it is only when you get married and you have kids and you start raising your own kids that you really sc-scratch your head and say, okay, well, now what am I going to teach them? So, I think th-that that the-the removal of God or a spirituality from American culture is very-very attributable to the, uh, to the baby boomers, very much so, but we are not the generation that throws our babies in the toilet. It is 19-year-old that are doing that. It is 18-year-old that are doing that. We may be their parents, but I do not know. I-I rather suspect that if you ask me what I think is wrong with America today, I will tell you, lack of trust is, is a significant factor. I think, uh, a lack of respect for authority is a significant factor. But when you have got a president who's a skirt chaser, and then basically all the things that we have now come out to find out about even LBJ, I mean, Roosevelt had Lucy Mercer. JFK had more mistresses than you can shake a stick at Roosevelt had his ones on the side. And so now we come to find out that all these guys were kind of near do wells. And so therefore you-you wonder why we do not have trust. But I think that the country suffers from lack of trust, a lack of respect. And I think that one of the single largest issues in the country today is the fact that you have almost 50 percent of young adults growing up in a home where both parents do not live and-and we- SM: 19:29 Oh! WK: 19:29 -we sweep it under the rug, we pretend like it is and we do talk shows, and people get on and psychologists hypothesize how, you know, it does not really make any difference whether the father is in the picture. It does not really make any difference whether the parents are married. It does not really make any difference if you are married three or four or five times. No. You know, the eternal quest for love is-is nonsense. SM: 19:51 That goes directly back to the boomers then, and maybe their failure in terms of, um, being parents or, um, a-and the attacks I originally referred to at the beginning of the interview that, uh, maybe one of the weaknesses, there may be some semblance of truth to the problems today because of the way boomers think. A-and the, the question I want to ask right now is, have boomers shared? This is a very important concept here, sharing their experiences, sitting down with their sons and daughters and saying, this is the way it was, Mary or John. Um, have boomers transferred the issue of passion to their children. We all know today that volunteerism is very important amongst today's young people. They, they volunteer in high school and they volunteer in college. You are probably up to 90 percent of students coming in or close to it who are volunteering. But that does not get into the whole issue of desiring at some juncture to serve others, to want to become a politician, or to want to go into a position of responsibility to serve others beyond oneself. So, I am getting a what are your thoughts on that, in terms of, have boomers related to their kids? Um, and, and have they sat down a-and, and supposedly a quality boomer had was passion. Your thoughts on the passion that boomers had and whether they have been able to transfer this to their transfer this to their kids. WK: 21:04 Well, obviously I can only speak on behalf of my own, um, and my wife and I are, are the same age. We are both 48 and, uh, so we both, even though I did not know her when I was going through college, we both lived these things at very different levels. She was at Central Michigan University. I was at Columbia College in Chicago. So, in an urban setting, I was exposed to a lot more, but yet at the same time, I mean, they, they, they had their changes as well. Um, it would be irresponsible of me as a parent to not let my children know that, once upon a time, not too long ago, that a black woman or a black man could not drink at the same water fountain. It would be irresponsible of me to, in any way, shape or form, agree with that Reagan quote that Vietnam was noble. I think Vietnam was not noble. Vietnam was a mistake. It was a mistake. It was a mistake. We may have had good intentions, but the fact of the matter is, I cannot help but look at that wall now very cynically, and look at the names of 60,000 martyrs, and they were martyrs for LBJ, and they were martyrs for Nixon, and they were martyrs for this American jingoistic bullshit idea that we, that we are the people to tell the whole world how to run their affairs. I think that the world has done a tremendous job of discovering itself that communism left to its own devices, collapses under its own weight. That is what is happening in Eastern Europe. But, um, so as a parent, it would be grossly irresponsible of me not to let them know about what tremendous injustices existed as I was a young adult and I was looking at the world the same way they look at it. Now, they take these things for granted. I have got two daughters. I have got a 16-year-old and a 14-year-old. The idea that they can do anything they want, they take for granted. That is a given. If they want to be doctors, fine if they want to be you know, I have always told them, do not if, if you want to be a flight attendant, be a flight attendant, but for God's sakes, if you want to be a pilot, be a pilot. You know, whereas, whereas women in our age were told, oh, you want to fly? Be a flight attendant. And they were not even called flight attendants. They were called stewardesses, and they had to be lookers, and they could not gain weight and, and all that. So, I think it is imperative, and to any responsible parent to say, this is the way it was. And this is, this is what has changed. Kids are kids, and kids are going to take that information and process in any way they think they have. I [stuttering] my kids, all three of my kids, are far from perfect, and I have got one, as you all know, who's, you know, kind of trying to still discover himself, but he would no more involve himself any kind of in any kind of an act of racism or sexism or any of the isms then, then he would, you know, walk in front of a railroad train. Um, in my-my daughter, the middle child, is 16 years old, but mentally, she is much more mature, and, uh, we will hear comments made at the school that she goes to, which is a parochial high school that she considers to be homophobic, and she will stop right in their tracks, and she will turn around, and she will she will tell some kid, it is not faggot. SM: 24:12 Right. WK: 24:13 There are no faggots. You know, there are gay people and-and I am proud of her for that. SM: 24:19 That is good. WK: 24:19 So yes, I-I think that we have a duty. We have a responsibility. The last line in the movie platoon is [coughing]we have a r-responsibility to pass on to those who survived, uh, the stories of those who had not- i-in why they have that and what that was all about. So, um, I think most people I know, who are my age or thereabouts, in one way or another, tried to incorporate into their kids some kind of a sense of the decency that, that all of us, I think, felt. Uh, I think the Catholic Church has been maligned, and in some cases deservedly so, but I also think that the Catholic Church, I look at the Catholic Church as, as-as a major force of change, uh, in the area of civil rights, very they made it very abundantly clear by the mid to late 1960s I mean, some of those people getting the hell beat out of them down south were priests. SM: 25:29 Mhm. WK: 25:30 And, uh, you know, you have got the Bering brothers- SM: 25:33 Right, [inaudible] WK: 25:35 -and many of the and even some of the people around here who were arrested out of GE for trying to destroy the nuclear warheads were Catholic priests, um and that the morality, morality is such that every individual as Dr. King said, you know, the, the grandsons of slave owners and the grandsons of slaves should be able to stand side by side. And I, although we do not live in a utopian society, I think they were much, much closer to it. Um, it would be, what is the point? What is the point? I mean, I lived in the greatest era of the 20th century. Um, I do not a-and from what I have heard, I had no desire to live during the Depression, and I certainly had no desire to live during World War Two. But I can look back at my life now, and you know, hopefully there is a lot more of it left to live, but my God, what a great time to live. Uh, what a what a force of change we were. Um, you know, we were all brought up with Dr. Spock. And you know, when people would, you know, people would run to the drugstore when they would have a baby, and the first thing that they would get, besides the diapers, was Dr. Spock's book. And then it turned out, Dr. Spock came back and said, I screwed up. SM: 26:34 Yeah. [laughing] WK: 26:59 I loved him. I had him on two or three times he is a delightful old guy. And one woman called up and said, Dr. Spock, I hope, I hope that you-you are proud of yourself. You screwed up an entire generation. [laughter] Uh- SM: 27:15 Have you, have you changed your opinions of the, uh, the boomers as you have gotten older? Remembering those times when you were, uh, went to college for that first time and challenged that SDS member, and then you were out in the streets yourself, and toward the end, and now you are a TV, um, personality and had many different jobs, um, to the day. Have you changed or been pretty consistent, uh, on your thoughts on the boomers? And, uh, a-and secondly, one of the terms that many of us used at that time, and I would go into and that is, we are the most unique generation in American history. How would you comment on that? Some, as some people might say, an arrogant statement that we are the most unique, uh, different generation. WK: 27:54 Well, to be young is to be arrogant. You know, it is arrogance is an arrogance is a virtue that is especially endemic in the young. Um, I think at the time, I think that we were justified feeling that because, I mean, if you take that 10-year period of time, let us say between 19...1963 and 1973 we, um, made huge strides in the struggle for equality for all Americans. We, um, stopped the war that was terribly immoral and terribly unpopular. We brought out of the closet a-a very basic human need, which is sexuality. [getting up] Let me close this door [inaudible]. We were responsible for pressuring the Congress into removing a, uh, a president who was a liar. Um, so I would think that probably, if I had to guess, that statement was probably made sometime in the early (19)70s, because we were probably feeling our odds. And I think that every-every youthful generation feels their odds, see, I think the whole ballgame changed that when Reagan got it, because Reagan basically came in and said, “It is good to be a boomer.” Reagan basically came in and said, “Wealth is good.” And so, you had under Reagan, you had the, uh, you know, the, the movie hero the 1980s was Gordon Gekko. Wealth is good, you know. What? What is wrong if you want a BMW? What the hell is wrong with having a BMW? You know, if pe- if people are starving in Honduras, screw them. How many of you? How many of them do you know personally? And so, I think that through his charisma, which was considerable, um, Reagan, all of a sudden, took our-our, uh, our desire, which is uniquely American. I-I-I guess all people have a desire to feel good about themselves, but we really do, and he was certainly the most charismatic president since Kennedy, um, in-in, in my life, the two most charismatic presidents were Reagan and, uh, Kennedy, and Reagan came along and said, “What is wrong with being wealthy?” And, and so we had this tremendous period of prosperity. And I think some of us, as all of us grew in our jobs and grew in wealth and grew, you know, started having families of our own. I think all of us got kind of caught up in that BMW, uh, you know, okay, I paid my dues. Why should I have to worry about the other guy kind of thing? Um, and, and I do not know whether that is more a function of age, or what the political wind, or what the political climate is in America right now, so I think the Reagan kind of dampened the, that desire to change things. I mean, you know, Jerry Rubin became a stockbroker, you know, Abbie Hoffman became basically a comedian. Um, that the significant - there were no more significant strides to make. There were no wars, no more wars to be won. Um, by 1973 the feminist movement was well on its way. Uh the Civil Rights Movement was had really prospered. Uh, Vietnam, war was history. The, uh, the draft was history. So, yeah, I-I think that that is the relatively arrogant statement, but I think tha-that there is plenty of stuff to back that up. I do not see; I do not see the generation of today accomplishing those kinds of things. I mean, somebody comes out and says, “Oh, Tara Tabitha” [mic cuts out, fumbling to get it back in place]. You know, I-I can say, for example, in this in this field, in, in my field, um, when I started, th-there has been, as, as there had been in many fields, it has been tremendous change when I started being on the radio, which is where I started, was the domain of the white male with [intercom interruption] Uh, with the occasional exception of the very smooth voiced African American male, no women. God, you know, you would have a woman do a cooking show or something like that. [talking over each other] And then bit by bit, they put them in. And lo and behold, the, uh, the radio stations did not lose their audience, and lo and behold, they there were some that were pretty damn good. I do not see, frankly, the same quality of, of hunger, and I do not see the same quality of, of, um, well studied nature that coming out of the kids that are coming into the field today, I see people who want to be within five years, they want to be the six o'clock anchor, and they want to be making $800,000 a year. And when you tell them, yeah, well, that all starts if you are lucky, if you are lucky, you get a job as a production assistant in Scranton for 15 grand a year. And then they bristle. Interestingly enough, the ones that turn out, the ones that do not bristle and say, “Okay, I am on my way,” are usually the ones that do quite well. SM: 33:09 Strong work ethic. WK: 33:11 Yeah, very much so. And I, and I think that, um, we are, we are, to a very large extent, our parents. And I think that my appearance, li-like many people, my-my grandparents were immigrants. Uh, my, my parents were the son and daughter of Irish immigrants, and not working was not an option. I mean, I did not even know what the hell welfare was, and the idea that I would not want to work anyway. I mean to me, what I do is lazy enough to begin with. I mean t-to me, in my world, I just if you sit on your butt in a radio studio all day and make a living at it, my god, that was just like, you know. I mean, my grandfather was a blacksmith and on a day like today where it is 100 degrees outside, that did not mean he did not go to work. He went to work, and the horses had to be shod, and because it was hot, they would be irritated. And, um, [someone coming in] Hi, David, how are you? Dave Roberts: 34:19 Good. WK: 34:19 Dave Roberts, Steve McKiernan [inaudible] I-I think, um, I think especially if [mic cuts out] WK: 34:22 I think it was a que- I think it was just a question of, what were you going to do? I do not think, I do not think that there was ever a question of, you make up your mind when you get there. I think there was always a question, what do you want to do when you I mean, the most commonly heard question, I think, was, what do you want to do when you grow up? And, um, so, you know, a lot of guys went to med school, a lot of guys went to law school. Um, a lot of people, just like myself, got a bachelor's degree and said, this is it, Jack, no more. This is, you know, I do not want to do anything more, more about this. But, um, I-I think that that particular period of time is indelible. I think from, uh, 60 about 63 to about 75 was indelible. I was carried out. [talking over announcement] Um, you know f-for 80 different reasons, um. SM: 35:27 [inaudible] WK: 35:27 Yeah. SM: 35:27 One of the leading questions in this whole project gets into the issue of healing. Um, uh, you are the 38th interview I have had in this project. WK: 35:36 Mhm. SM: 35:36 This is one of the most important aspects of the interview, and that is, uh, when people visit the Vietnam Memorial. And Jan Scruggs and the things that he did, uh, the goal of that memorial was the healing process, to heal the nation, to, uh, not only the Vietnam, uh, population and their families, but, uh, the nation as a whole. But in going to the Vietnam Memorial the last six years, not only on Memorial Day, but Veterans Day, I sense a lot of there is a lot of healing that still has to come. Uh, you hear it, and some of the statements made against the president, uh, certainly they will never forgive Jane Fonda. You know, it is not 100 percent forgiving of some people, but- WK: 36:20 She was not even here. SM: 36:20 And I know that some Vietnam veterans wanted to know. They asked me if she was going to be there. I just said I did not know, but I-I like your opinions on this issue of healing. Um, the divisions were so strong at that time. Um, there is a brand-new book out by Jules Wilk around 1968 and I recommend it highly. It is an excellent book. Gets into that whole year and how important it was in American history. WK: 36:20 There were protesters down there on the Fourth of July. SM: 36:20 Right. SM: 36:42 Yeah, and, but see, the divisions were there, and everybody seemed to it was an us versus them mentality. And the question is, many people will say, um, that the us versus them has never subsided, but it continues today and is directly linked back to that period. Uh, what have we healed? Your thoughts? Have we healed from the divisions of that time? Even though the war is over, um, the movements and some have gone on, civil rights, some people, we have taken steps backwards, as opposed to forward. But, uh, have we healed from those tremendous divisions? Or are the boomers carrying these divisions in their psyche, probably to their graves. WK: 36:42 I would say that was the pinnacle year. The answer your question is, no, I do not think so. I-I do not think we have healed because I-I think that, um, it has made an indelible mark on all the men, especially who had to deal with in one form or another, if you were male, and, and you, especially like myself, had the unfortunate distinction of drawing a, a low number, you had to deal with this military thing. And I remember as I got into senior year in college, and I was really, really anxious to get out and pursue my craft. I was already on the radio, and I could not wait till school was over, and then I could go out to wherever, Green Bay, Wisconsin, or, as it turned out Flint, Michigan, and really do this thing full time. I remember the, the burden of having to do this military thing was just like a weight on my chest. Um, and then, fortunately for me, something totally unexpected happened, and I was able to get into a reserve, but I did my time in the service that way, and I did not have to go to Vietnam. Um, I think, though, that the healing and, and the anger, I think, very legitimately, you know, let us call a spade a spade. I was able to go to college because my father was a college professor. SM: 38:39 Are we okay Dave in, here? Dave Roberts: 38:40 Yeah-yeah, it is fine, it is fine. I will be out of here in a second. SM: 38:43 Okay, oh okay. [multiple people talking at once] WK: 38:44 I went to I went to college for two reasons, because my father was a college professor with and with, our family could afford it, and number two, because he was a college professor, I have been told since I was a little kid, that was something I owed my father. And I hated the first two years of college, those two years of college when I had all electives was just a whole different ballgame. Um, and of course, while I was in college, it became abundantly clear that being in college as opposed to being in Vietnam, was a place to be. Um, so when I was my second semester senior year, and I heard about this reserve thing, I-I obviously jumped at it, not believing it, and, and it turned out to be accurate. So, I-I did four months after, and then six months, six years in the reserve. Um, but I think by that time, I think that everybody that I was in with had pretty much solidified their feeling that, uh, the government was a liar. They lied. They just lied. They lied about body counts. They lied about not bombing Cambodia when in fact we were. They lied about ground troops being in Cambodia when in fact they were. Uh, and so every time, even now. A-a-and frankly, just as an aside, I do not know what I think about Quinn not going in because frankly I knew 80 zillion guys who would use any excuse they could get, and my attitude was more power to you. Um, you know, you did what you did. I knew guys. I knew a guy who, um, was-was a half an inch too tall to go into to pass the physical. He was that he was like six, six or something like that. And he nevertheless, the week before his physical, because he was 1A he did traction, just to make sure that he stayed too tall. Well, now think about it. Think about it. At that particular point, we had several 100,000 troops in Vietnam. They were bringing the body bags back faster than they could bring the soldiers over there. And so, think about it. So, a lot of guys were making a cottage industry out of not, not going in the first place. And second of all, I mean, there was just, there was a tremendous amount of distrust. But the healing is not just I am a man of the government. The healing is divisions that took place within families. I mean, there is a really good scene in Born on the Fourth of July, where Tom Cruise comes home in a wheelchair, and one of the sister’s whispers in his ear about the brother. He is against the war, and Tom Cruise says this is before his conversion as Ron Covack to the activist Tom Cruise says, "Love it or leave it. Danny, love it or leave it." And that is a-and that that was something that internally had to be dealt with. And I do not think it ever was. Like to a lot of people, the wall means a different thing. To me, it is just like I can still see my father standing at the top of the stairs when I was just, I was of the opinion, then maybe, you know, just for five seconds I thought, well, maybe I will go to Canada. I knew I would not do that because I knew I could not work in this opinion; I could not work in this field if I did. But he said, well, then get out now, because I will not harbor a federal fugi-fugitive because of you. If you do not answer your draft induction, you are a fugitive, and I do not want you in the house. And that is the only time in my life which was full of ups and downs that my father ever said if that is what you are going to do, get out. SM: 42:18 Yeah, um- WK: 42:19 The healing very much is internal. Um, the healing is most importantly now, what do you say to 60,000 families? SM: 42:27 76 million people were boomers. WK: 42:30 You know? What do you say? I mean, what do you say? And, and what about the guilt of US college grads who got to go to college? You know? Because basically, it was a poor, white and black kids war that is who was in the front line, and the college brats were not in the front line unless they were lucky enough to be in ROTC. And what they would do is, once they got their orders from ROTC, they take them, they came in the front line, and they come back in a body bag, 28 days later. SM: 42:53 This gets into the fact that people have written that 15 percent of boomers are truly active that were against war, gun violence protest, gun violence on movement, uh, so forth. They could be conservative or liberals, but they were activists during that time frame. WK: 43:08 I was never in, I was never in STS, um- SM: 43:10 But you went to protest them. WK: 43:13 I-I did. Earth Day. SM: 43:14 So, they were not part of that. WK: 43:16 Anti-war protest, absolutely. Um, Civil rights protest, absolutely. Um, and proud to have been part of all of it. SM: 43:26 It gets it gets into the real question of experience. And I may have mentioned this prior to, uh, setting up this interview, and that is, we took students to meet Edmund Muskie, and we had that time to meet with him. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And had a time to reflect on watching Ken Burns Civil War series. And somehow, in some way, when I asked this question to him about the lack of trust that the generation had in elected leaders and one in 1968 and we got into the whole issue of healing, and how many boomers do not trust their bosses still, as they have gotten older, it is this lack of trust mentality. He almost broke down and crying. He said, uh, I am going to basically say that we really have not healed since the Civil War. And he started talking about the Civil War generation going to their graves with bitterness for the other side. And then that threw a flame in me about the fact is, are the 76 million boomers, many have gone out and raised kids, had families, but they are all aging. Are they going to go to their graves with the same feelings that many of the Civil War generation had- was still the bitterness, um, lack of healing from within and-and some might say, “Who cares?” You know, you cannot heal for whole generation, but- WK: 44:29 There is a huge difference, though, you just put your finger on. He said that. He said that many of the people, many of the Civil War veterans, went to their graves with a bitterness, to the other to the other side. I-I worked in Atlanta, and, and I-I-I have said many times that I if I did not know any better, I would have thought that general Sherman's first name was "that damn", because that is what people would say, that damn Sherman. Uh, big difference, though, a very curious thing has happened with-with the Vietnam veteran. The Vietnam veteran is mad at the United States, he was mad at the VA, uh, he was mad at the army or navy or whatever service he was in. But what is very interesting is he is not mad at Vietnam anymore. He is not mad at the North Vietnamese. I cannot tell you the number of stories that I have seen about guys who have gone back and have broken bread with guys that, that they-they were their former prisoners or that kind of thing. They are a very curious thing has happened. We are not mad at them. We just, we just established, uh, with virtually no press at all. No press, uh, negative press at all. We just reestablished diplomatic relations with Vietnam. Our ambassador to Vietnam is a former Peoria. SM: 44:35 Mhm. Right-right. WK: 44:35 So, what is, what is confounding to me, and what is fascinating to me is the healing is all here. The healing in-in terms of being angry at the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese, I think the average person now says, “Okay, well, they are communist, and it is not our form of government.” And obviously, if you look around the world, it is, it is a form of government that is dying out. But nevertheless, their country, it is their goddamn country. I mean, how would we feel if Vietnamese showed up in Missouri? SM: 44:35 Mhm. WK: 44:47 You know? And how would we have felt if the North Vietnamese showed up to help this out? I mean, because that is what it was. So, what is interesting is the healing is-is virtually all internal. I have never been to the wall. I have driven by it, and when my time comes, I want to be there alone. Wow, I just do. I just want to be there alone, and, uh, because it is a very personal thing, and the war took its toll on every American family in different ways. And my mother would tell you that it is through God's goodness and mercy that neither of her sons got sent over there, and she may very well be right. But at the same time, we-we were, like everybody else, negatively affected by this debacle, wrapping itself in the flag, which I really, really, really mix in with his little American flag bow tie or, or, uh, lapel, you know, and with his you know. Now, all of all of his boys are best-selling authors, you know, but, uh, they in, in some of the dialog that was spoken in that Oval Office, which belongs to everybody, by the way, which, uh, Haldeman and Erin Lichtman and Dean seemed to forget for quite some time. You know, it was the end. All of us were the, you know, the kids and the commies and the commie you know, the commie influence and all that other stuff. And, uh, you know, Nixon, Nixon's kid did not go, at least. You got to say one thing for LBJ. LBJ is boys both went. SM: 48:01 That is right. WK: 48:03 Chuck Robb and Pat Nugent both went. Nixon's. You think Nixon's sons in law went, hell no. David Eisenhower, who I have an immense amount of respect for has got one of the great minds about history and is a delightful chap. He did not go. SM: 48:19 He served, but I think he was in the military. WK: 48:22 I do not even think, no, no, no, no, no [talking over each other] Really, whatever. And, and Eddie Cox was a Wall Street lawyer. Forget it. You know, we are real good at sending other people's kids to die. SM: 48:36 I guess. [mic noise] WK: 48:42 You know, maybe we are under underselling the value of Nixon. Nixon painted the picture to everybody who was over 35 and told them exactly what they wanted to hear. In that sense, he was not very different than Reagan, where the, the major difference between Nixon and Reagan- [intercom interruption]- realistically speaking, Nixon probably accomplished a hell a lot more than Reagan did. But the major difference between Reagan a-and Nixon is, is that, and it should not be important, but it is the personality, the warmth that the, um, you know, you just had a feeling with-with Reagan, that he was like, your father, you know, Nixon was like this guy. Nixon was like this annoying neighbor that you knew that he was right, but you just wish he would go away. And then after a while, you found out the guy was lying. And how typical of Nixon, how very typical of Nixon when presented with the facts of the Watergate burglary, which I do believe he knew nothing about until it was done, how very typical of Nixon to instead of just saying, guys, boy, did we blow it, I am going on TV tonight, and I am telling the American people that these people are associated with the Republican National Committee, and they are all fired, and we will not support them in any way, shape or form. They broke the law. And, you know, we win our elections fair and square. Would have been a one-night story. How typical of Nixon to turn it into a disaster. You know, to lie, to cheat, steal. You know. SM: 50:23 When you look at again at the boomers, uh, just you had had made a reference early on to the, uh, impact boomers had with respect to the civil rights movement. But, uh, your thoughts on how important the college students were in the protests on college campus with ending the war. I-I say this only in reference to an interview I had with Jack Smith, who said college students really did not have that much of an impact. The impact really took place when the body base came home and Middle America saw that the war had end. But, um, your thoughts on that at 15 percent of activists who were protesting the war and how much of an importance they were to ending it? WK: 50:58 Well, they were an ever-present force. Uh, I think that Jack's right. I think that, um, when there were several pivotal things in ending the war, uh, first of all, I do not think that one can underestimate the tremendous potency of Walter Cronkite in the 1960s, um, you know TV now you have got ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, um, CNN. In most homes, you had either Walter Cronkite or Huntley and Brinkley, but most homes, it was Walter Cronkite that certainly was ours. When W-Walter Cronkite made two visits to Vietnam, one of the early (19)60s and one in 1968 when Walter Cronkite came back in 1968 and basically opinionated that we do not know. I am not sure we are doing the right thing. Johnson said, Johnson said, that is the election. I am going to get beat. That is why he withdrew. Um, So I-I think that, um, the evening news stopped the Vietnam War. Now what portion of the evening news you choose to select as being responsible for that is up to you. I think that Jack Smith is right. Jack Smith's a veteran. Jack Smith is also a news man. And I think that, yeah, the, the nightly body count after a while, you would say, oh, well, you know the body count today was, we killed 5000 Vietnamese and only 300 Americans died. Well, more and more and more those 300 Americans were s-starting to show up on TV. We would see their bodies being carried off the airplanes. We would see their grieving families at the funerals. And more and more it came home, and more and more kids from more and more neighborhoods were coming back in those body bags. So yeah, Jack is, Jack is right in that sense, but I-I-I differ with him in the sense that the college thing was ever present. It was constant. It was there. I mean, I remember Northwestern University, which is like the bastion of Republican capitalism, Evanston, Illinois, um, was shut down. The main road, main road that goes through Northwestern University, of Sheridan Road was shut down right after Kent State, and there was a huge sign up over Sheridan Road that said something to the effect that, you know, go make your millions downtown, but remember the remember the kid, kids who died for-for the freedom of expression, and Kent State, I think, was when everybody started to say, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because I know even that-that is my parents said, “Wait a minute. They are shooting college students, unarmed college students. Come on.” And so, I think, I think Jack is right, that it, it was the daily procession of body bags, and it was the daily and also it was the daily student demonstrations. But I think that that the point at which this the war, any popularity of the war sunk to new levels was Kent State. When Kent-Kent State happened, that was it. Every American parent who had a kid off at college said that could be my kid, because they were just protesting the war. SM: 54:03 What, um, if there was a moment in your life, the most important moment in your life of, of this period, what was the what was the event? And now you are talking about your high school years and your college years and maybe your early adulthood years, but if there was one specific event that you could pinpoint and said, even to this day, it is hard. You might think about it. Uh, we might think about it every day, but it is one thing that you will never forget that had tremendous influence on your life. What was the event of that period? WK: 54:31 Chicago in 1968. Lived there, uh, at the time, I was working for a TV station there, uh, I saw these massive crowds. Uh, there was Civil War. It was Hubert Humphrey up in his suite at the Conrad Hilton kissing the TV, um, screen when they showed a picture of his wife, and it was, um, under educated under trained, overworked Chicago police officers’ downstairs who had been put on edge and on alert by the mayor, who had promised that, uh, by God, this convention was, um, going, to be orderly, and, uh it was that powder keg. And, uh, I-I am not sure, even though Humphrey lost, I-I am not sure that, uh, there is any one event in my mind that-that more closely illustrates what, what a near civil war there was, although Nixon exacerbated it, it was there already. Many of the protesters had come for the sure hell of it. I mean, many of them had come to, uh a-and I must say, l-let me play amateur psychologist for a second. I do not think it is an accident that the kids who were protesting the war were the same kids- He just won't answer that page. SM: 56:09 Mind if I [inaudible] WK: 56:12 No-no-no, I cannot, yes, I can, because you remember it too, but I cannot tell you how the life force was sucked out of an entire generation of young people on November the 22nd of 1963. This guy hit, and this is way, way, way before all this stuff about his mistresses and his ties to the mob and all this other stuff. I mean, think back to 1963, this guy was our hero. He was a war hero. He was good looking, he was charismatic, he was funny, he was witty, he was he, um, we know now that that even though he bumbled his way through, you know, the first couple, the first year or so, that he actually became quite an astute, uh, President toward the tail end of his, his presidency. Uh, through-through sheer dumb luck and determination, he, um, he capably handled the Cuban Missile Crisis, and at the time in which he was killed, his popularity was just through the ceiling. The thing that was unique about him was the fact that he was so appealing to young people because Ike was like your grandfather. Ike was this bald guy who won the war. We were not alive for the war, so thanks Ike for winning the war and keeping us from speaking German. Um, but Ike was and Ike was, I-I think history is judged. Ike was just a real mediocre president. Um, he was okay, but he was not great. Ike lied. Ike lied about the you too. SM: 57:42 That is right. WK: 57:43 But Ike was like somebody. Ike was your father's president. Jack Kennedy was our president. And when that life ended, I think for many, many, many of us, there was a need to express just the outrage, the anger. Um, we did it in good ways. Um, for example, I think that, that it is no accident that, that Jack Kennedy dies in November of 1963 in January and February of 1964 Th-The Beatles come to the United States of America, and in the phenomenon that nobody has ever seen before or since, just totally mesmerize American youth, because basically and, and take them out of their intense grief over the loss of this, of this guy that we love, and allow us to-to live, to have fun, because they were so fun and they were so funny. And so-s-so very talented. And we were influenced by their music, because their music transcended just it went from-from silly love songs to really, you know, to meaningful stuff. And they just, they wrote all kinds of new chapters about music and everything. And we were with them every step of their way. So, then we get to 1968 and in an April, Dr. King is killed, and which is, you know, a kick, kick in the face to every, not only every African American, but-but every American. And two months later, two, three months later, Bobby Kennedy's killed. So, with that as a background, the Convention was in August. Bobby Kennedy died June 4, and we had hoped that he would be elected, that he would, um, be a suitable replacement for his brother. He seemed to have almost, not quite, almost, the qualities of Jack. Nobody had the qualities of Jack, but he was a pretty good substitute. And, um, then he was assassinated. And so, by the time that convention rolled around, those kids were angry. Those kids were angry because basically, as the line went, all the good ones are gone. They kill all the good ones. And it seemed, and it seemed to be true. And so, they would shove people like Hubert Humphrey down our throats, or Richard Nixon. They would take all these old guys, and they would shove them down our throats and say, a-and there was no choice there. I mean, it was just like, you know, all these old farts and no, and nobody was saying, you know, Richard Nixon was saying he had a secret plan to stop the Vietnam War, which was such a secret, he kept it a secret for six years. SM: 1:00:15 [chuckling] Sure. WK: 1:00:16 Um, so I-I think you cannot talk about the boomer generation without talking about, in my opinion, the most significant besides the Vietnam War itself, the most significant disaster to the boomer generation was, uh, the assassination of Kennedy. SM: 1:00:33 You think today's young people when we say, uh, Ike was my father's president, today's young people say, well, JFK was your president, so I will say the same thing. WK: 1:00:43 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. SM: 1:00:44 So, so it has no linkage at all. WK: 1:00:46 Well, yeah, but see, it gets back to the trust thing. It gets back to the trust thing because they, they cannot look at Bill Clinton and say “He is mine.” I mean, he can be on MTV from now until the cows come home, and he can he has a full head of gray hair, and he has got a teenage daughter, and he is the first baby boomer president and all that other stuff. And young people can say, well, he is my president, but you know what? They do not. They do not like him. I mean, they like him compared to the other old farts. I mean, compared to Bob Dole. SM: 1:01:12 [laughing] WK: 1:01:13 But-but you do not hear kids. You do not hear young people talking about Bill Clinton the way we talked about Kennedy. Um, he may be able to relate to young people, but basically, I think that people, young and old see him as kind of a cynical politician who will say anything to get elected, and now he is okay. I mean, he is enjoying, I mean, we are all enjoying this tremendous crest of, uh, of prosperity and-a-and I would think that he has got to have something to do with it, but the fact of the matter is, he is certainly no hero to the young the way Kennedy was to us. Um, and, and the Kennedy assassination cannot be underplayed as a pivotal, integral thing in forming what is called the boomer Generation, probably the first of, uh, the first leg of, of the table, I would say, um, you know, there was, there were the assassinations, starting with John. There was the Civil Rights Movement. And there was Vietnam. SM: 1:02:15 This gets right into the next question [inaudible mumbling], how much more time do we have, we okay, yeah? WK: 1:02:22 15 minutes or so. SM: 1:02:23 Okay, um, [inaudible] just take a pause here [talking over each other]. Yep. WK: 1:02:34 Set the course for future events and for the calamity that was to become the (19)60s. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. In the fact that most people look at the Warren report is, is fiction just exacerbates it. I mean, who killed him is really secondary, the fact that he was- SM: 1:02:55 got very general but you have heard this before in the best history books are written 25 to 50 years from now. What would be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? In your thoughts, what is the lasting legacy? And how will historians treat us knowing that the best histories are 50 years after an event has taken place? WK: 1:03:14 Oh, I think they are probably they will look at it, look at us as intrinsically selfish because we did not win any wars, um, you know, we did not build the atom bomb, we did not build Empire State Buildings. Um, you know, basically all we did was we caused a hell of a lot of trouble and a lot of rockets in the 1960s and then we all became filthy rich in the 1980s under Reagan. Um, and I think that that would be a tremendous disservice to, uh, an entire generation of young men and women. Um, first of all, I think that there were a lot of people like me. We have either grandparents or great grandparents who came over from the old country. All of our parents, the single defining moment of their life was World War Two. For many of our parents, the second most defining moment of their life was, uh, the depression. So, these are people who knew hard times. Most of us did not know hard times. So, when you are worried about how you are going to feed your family? You do not have the luxury of worrying about whether or not a little a little black girl can drink out of a water fountain in Birmingham, Alabama. Once those needs were met, once the war was won, once America became prosperous, we had a relatively quiet period of time. You know, we went. We went basically 10-12, years with-with nothing other than the constant gnawing threat of the so-called Cold War, which at times would eat up, but basically i-it was just, it was just that it was a cold war. So, then we come along and, I-I swear, Steve, I-I think chapter one in this book is JFK's killing that is slapped every [inaudible intercom] every kid in America, and we became, then, at that point, more than just passive observers. And as, as things heated up and as we went to college, and colleges should be a bastion for activism, there has got to be a bastion for activism. I remember very clearly when I was emceeing that this very subject at West Chester, how most of the professors who were boomers, who are our age, were talking about. Well, it is not my job to get you a job. My job is to expand your mind. My job is to present some idealism. My job is to-to let you know, you know that once upon a time in the civil rights movement, you know, we were here, and now we are here, and in the women's studies movement, you know, this is where we were, and this is where we are, and they were all kind of lofty idealists from the 1960s while I understood perfectly what they were saying, I could not help but notice there was an enormous amount of anger in this, in the auditorium of kids saying, screw you! I do not know how to run a computer, [laughter] you know. O-or I do not have a job yet, you know. So, so take your (19)60s and stick it, because I do not have a job so and-and of course, they are all tenured professors, so they do not have to worry about a job for the rest of their life. There has got to be a place. There has got to be a safe place. And this is why I feel personally, and this is off the record. This is why I feel so sad about my son, because- SM: 1:06:39 Mhm. WK: 1:06:41 -we were also, you know, you talk about the college campuses a-as a as a nest of rebellion, we were really also the first generation of Americans who went to college. I mean, our parents, our parents really did not go to college. I mean, I-I am fortunate in the fact that both of my parents did. But I think if you take the average person, um, the average person did not go, I mean, you went to high school, and you went out and worked, and, um, most of our fathers came home from World War Two, and many, many of them, my own, included, like did a master's. When he went in, came back, got a second master's, and then got his doctorate. Um, many of them had gotten their butt kicked enough in the service to know that basically, the only true vehicle for success and the only true vehicle for getting out was, uh, education. So, but there has got to be a safe place for young people to express idea ideas, no matter how radical they are. Um, and, and the college campuses, obviously, I mean, not every campus was Berkeley, but [stuttering] and ironically enough, a lot of people would say that Kent State was not that radical of a school at all. SM: 1:06:54 Yeah. It is a very conservative school. WK: 1:07:42 Yeah. SM: 1:07:43 Most of the, everybody was surprised that that is where it hit- WK: 1:07:54 Yeah. SM: 1:07:55 -knowing th-that in Ohio, Ohio University was the most liberal of the colleges at that time that had the greatest problems, because I worked at OU, um, in the mid (19)70s, and Ron Kovack was actually kicked off the campus, and actually was arrested in Athens when he came there, and Vietnam Veterans Against the War and, uh, and then, of course, Ohio State was, geez, they had tremendous turmoil. So, Kent State was the big surprise that happened there. But he thought if it hit, if it had happened, it would have happened at OU or, um Ohio State University, because, they, they were, uh, hotbeds of turmoil. WK: 1:08:26 But I think that history may judge us as selfish. Um, history may judge us as, as not as altruistic as the current generation. And I think that there might be some degree of accuracy today. Uh, history may judge us as, I think, uh, as non-spiritual, and I think that there is also a degree of accuracy there. SM: 1:08:43 Have, have boomers carried their passion? Have boomers, I mean we are talking 15 percent of that active, and then, uh, 85 have the boomers carried the passion that was supposedly their-their most, best quality they possess? WK: 1:09:00 No, but I do not know w-whether that says [intercom] I do not know whether that is a function of the baby boomers being a disappointing generation, or whether that is just a function of age. Um, we are all very different and very different at 48 than I was at 18. You know, I have lived my life 30 years, and, um, I have actually been known to on rare occasions, vote for a Republican. Um- SM: 1:09:25 I am shocked. WK: 1:09:25 Yeah, well, WK: 1:09:26 I do not admit it to too many people, but, no, I-I mean, I vote for the person. I-I just [inaudible] I am, I-I guess one of the things that I carry over from the (19)60s is I-I am an independent. I cannot vote in primaries because I am I am registered as an independent. Um, but I think that probably people would say we, we got to the 80s, we made our money, we sold out. Um, a-and probably now the only way in which the true, the true dipstick of, of telling whether or not we had any effect is basically the way our children turn out. I am proud, proudest of my children, because I know that they would never, I know that all the "isms" are things that are not in their vocabulary. They will not be sexist, they will not be racist, they will not be in any way, shape or form, do anything to hurt another human being, um, just for the hell of it, or because it makes their life easier. SM: 1:09:26 [laughing] WK: 1:10:16 Yes, she does, yeah. SM: 1:10:16 Uh, last question before I give them just some general names for your responses and we will close the interview, and that is this issue of empowerment. Um, most students when they come to college, even today, when I was, uh, young and when you were young, hopefully, one of the goals is developing self-esteem in young people. That they have self-esteem they go on the world knowing that they can speak up if they see something wrong, like you already mentioned, your daughter does. Obviously, she has self-esteem. But, but the quality that a lot of young people do not have, and that is one of the goals of higher education, is not only preparing them for the world out there, hopefully they will continue to want to learn beyond, uh, just what they learn in the classroom, and that they have self-esteem and will be, uh, willing to speak their minds when the time comes forth. So, the question I am asking you is this: empowerment was a very important, um, adjective characteristics of the boomers. They felt empowered. Many of them did because they protested the war, they got involved in civil rights movement. And yes, many of them really bugged a lot of people. They, uh, a lot of us did it just for the sake of doing it. But there were a lot of since- there is a lot of sincerity there, even Vietnam veterans will say that, uh, if they, they are not so much upset with the people who were sincerely against the war. It is those people that tried to evade the draft and did all these other things, but there were sincere people out there. Empowerment. Has that concept of empowerment carried on into the boomer’s life as they have gotten older? In other words, they continue to speak up. And has that been transferred into their children, this sense of empowerment? WK: 1:11:40 Let me go back to Dr. Spock. Um, the, the pervading sentiment when- if you are a boomer, you grew up in the 1950s in the early 60s, the worst thing that you could do as a parent is to have a kid with a big head. The worst thing that you could do is have your kid be, uh, arrogant or conceited, or think that he or she was too good. So especially i-in-in coming from a Catholic school background, uh, if you did something, well, it was if it was acknowledged, it was acknowledged minimally. Um, you would look a-at my family, for example, and you would say, of the four of us, we have all done very well in our chosen careers. Uh, and you would say, gee whiz, well, your parents must have, have put you out in the world with a really good feeling about yourself. And I would say that is just simply not the case, um, nor is it the case of virtually anybody I know. Because I think that the responsible parent in 1958 or 59 was thinking that, basically, I do not want Johnny to have a big head. I want, I want to be able to control my kid. Um, I think, obviously, on some level, my family and every other family felt that they had if I work hard enough. I mean, one thing that we got from our parents was this idea the work ethic. I mean, success is 99 percent perspiration, 1 percent inspiration. I think that that came from our families. But I know very few people who were born and raised in the 1940s and 50s and 60s who came out of their family experience really feeling great about themselves. And I think a lot of what happened in college was, first of all, no more rules. Um, I mean, you had to show up for class. Uh, you were introduced to liberal thinkers in the in the person of many of the professors who taught us the classes. You were introduced to other kids who, um, it, it, it just was not high school anymore. But I think that there is a real it is a real misnomer to think that we were, that we came into the college world arrogant. I think that we all came into college world very frightened. And I think that we drew, we drew upon one another for our strength, and only in I mean, I-I went to college. First two years of college, I went to a city college, Chicago City College, and I began very quickly became act-active as Student Government, and it was in in being active with student government, I felt sensational about myself, probably for the first time in my life, because I was, uh, you know, when i-in grade school, in high school, I was usually, you know, in trouble for this, that or the other thing, little petty stuff, but-but-but never, you know, they could never this student leader that I was not college, and I felt terrific about myself. And I felt not only terrific about myself because I was student government officer, but I felt terrific about myself because of the people that I was with and the power that they gave me, and we all empowered one another. Then when I left the city college, which is a much more transient atmosphere for a permanent four-year institution, I was there, I-I felt good. The thing that really put me over the top, though, was getting my first job when I was working in this industry. Then I felt okay, I have arrived. But I think it is real misnomer to think that people went to college with-with big egos. I think that is nonsense. I think I think we drew upon each other's strength, and I think that if somebody said, hey, wait a minute. Look at this idiot, Bull Connor with these fire hoses, shooting these, you know, shooting these poor, you know, black protesters down in Birmingham. I think that if it came from our parents, it was one thing. If it came from another kid in the dorm, it was a whole other thing, then it really meant something. So, I-I do not think, I think, quite frankly, one of the je- one of the major, uh, one of the major shortcomings of the World War Two generation is the idea that, that, uh, oh, you do not want your kid to have a big head. Um, I think kids with big heads do not have problems. Kids with big heads do not wind up on-on psychiatrist couches. Um- SM: 1:15:40 That whole it is like trying to discuss ego, or that whole period couple years back, when they are talking about folks are coming out about if you have too much ego, that is bad. And, you know, it is like, well, you got to have ego, because that is confidence in yourself. WK: 1:15:53 Yeah, so much ego, it is not bad. There, there are people who, deep down inside, hate themselves, but they put on this arrogant, t-this kind of sachet of arrogance, um, because they are covering up for a deep-seated inferiority complex. There is a very different it is a whole different thing. I mean, even Christian teaching. I mean even if you and, and, and Christ has been so maligned and so-so misquoted, or, or the ideas that he espoused are so misquoted, um, if you looked at, at the heart of the Christian teaching, I mean, you know, um, Christ said, love one another as you love yourself. And, um, so I-I think that-that is a tremen- I think that is a tremendous misnomer, you know that these kids were all just arrogant kids looking for a place to hang out. SM: 1:16:39 I am going to ask, uh, this question here, which is basically throwing out some names. Just get your initial [shuffling sound] response to them, whether [intercom interruption], uh, just your thoughts on them and, uh whether they were impactful on uh- WK: 1:16:55 Mhm. SM: 1:16:55 America. First two, obviously Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. WK: 1:16:59 Uh, Fonda, in the sense that she even to the people who are against the war, I think she crossed the line. When she got on, uh, Hanoi radio, there was a sense, even within the anti-war movement, I think that there was a sense of right and wrong. And I think that, that when she went on radio Hanoi and urged American soldiers to give up. I think that there was a sense that she, she had really crossed a line, um, and that she has not redeemed herself with her spelled body and her tremendous, um, workout stuff and [stuttering] punishment of all punishments, marrying Ted Turner. But I think that realistically speaking, I think th-that she, she, um, she crossed a line, I think with Hayden. Hayden's a really bright guy. Um, Hayden, Hayden, Ruben, all the guys who in, in the, uh leadership of the movement, I-I do not think that they ever had the mainstream college kids. I think they made, there was a lot of smoke and mirrors, but, uh, Hayden, I think, has made a significant contribution. [intercom interruption] As a, you know, as a California legislator, and, and, and to this day, you got to give the guy credit him and he still activist. He is still a liberal. He is still getting his ears pinned in you know, Richard Rierden, I guess, just kicked his butt in the election, or was about to kick his butt in the election, but, but [intercom interruption] Hayden di-did not become, uh, um, Jerry Rubin. Hayden never became a stock broker. SM: 1:18:27 Yeah, that goes right into the next two, which is Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. And I-I prefaced the Abbie Hoffman question by well aware that he killed himself several years back over in Bucks County. Yeah, manic depressive. He had $2,500 in the bank, [chuckling, stuttering] the social media said he had given all this money away to causes yet, and he had written a note on his deathbed that basically stated that no one is listening to me anymore, so I am not going to live anymore. And so- WK: 1:18:40 Oh, he was a manic depressive. I do not think anybody listened to him in the first place. I think he was the clown prince of the movement. Um, He was, I-I do not think that people said, well, what does Abby say? I think that people were much more in tune with Ruben and with some of the other people who are more serious than that. No, Abby was the outrageous guy, Abby was the guy who wrote the book, steal this book. I mean, Abby, Abby was every movement must have its clown prince, and Abby was the clown prince of the anti-war movement. SM: 1:19:15 But do you think, and before we get the next names here, that there are many boomers that may have continued to keep their idealism as they got older and whatever field they went into, and then, though they see that, even though he may have been the clown prince or whatever perceptions might be, that, wait a minute, today's college students are not listening or care as much about civil rights issues and racism and so forth as we did - the passion again - WK: 1:19:37 Because they think it is done. SM: 1:19:39 Yeah, they think it is done, or all- how about some of the other issues that so no one is listening anymore, and we are, we are getting older, and we are going to pass on and so they are going to be raising their kids in a couple years. So that, that, you know, I-I only saw that article, not so much caring about Abby Hoffman as I did. Was that symbolic of many boomers and their attitudes as they are approaching 50? WK: 1:19:58 No, because I think that he was caught in a time warp. Um, you find, I think that you find that with a lot of people, you find that with a lot of actors, for example, that th-they, they do one thing and they do one thing well, and when they are asked to show some versatility, they just cannot do it. So, I think that in every offense case, Abby was reliving the (19)60s, even though it was the (19)90s. And I think that he was really kind of caught in a time warp, um, you know, Hayden's, I mean, you have to give Hayden credit, at least for changing over the times. But he is still dedicated to, you know, mostly liberal environmental type causes. SM: 1:20:21 Uh, some of the Presidents, um, just, just give real quick commentary on Lyndon Johnson, John Kennedy, Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, just, just some brief thoughts on all four of them. WK: 1:20:38 Okay, well, Lyndon Johnson was the guy who put the pedal to the metal about Vietnam. I mean, history has shown him. Um, Lyndon Johnson was, as most men are, a real paradox. Um, he was enormously skilled at playing the political game. It was Lyndon Johnson. [intercom interruption] It was Lyndon Johnson who got through most of John Kennedy's legislation. Posthumously. Uh, it was Lyndon Johnson who put through the, um, Civil Rights Bill, which had just been in the planning stages when Kennedy was assassinated. Um, it was also Lyndon Johnson who, b-before John Kennedy's body was in the ground, the night of Kennedy's assassination in the White House, called together the Joint Chiefs of S-Staff and said, boys, get ready, because we are going to step things up in Vietnam. Um, I think Lyndon Johnson was the was the quintessential southern politician. Uh, did it well, uh, realized by the time he died that the Vietnam had been a huge mistake. SM: 1:21:35 Kennedy and, uh, Richard Nixon? WK: 1:21:36 Y-you know, John Kennedy, this is, this is 1963 versus 1997 when we know, you know, he was a man of tremendous flaws and had an eye for women, um, I-I think he was idealism personified. I think that he was the first person to actively reach out to young people, including those who were even too young to vote. Uh, he was the fi-first person to, uh, bring up the, the notion of, uh, things like the Peace Corps of, uh, of government is what you make it, um, and you must make it. And everybody has an obligation. And not just the you know, not just what they told you the draft board that you got an obligation to serve. Kennedy said you got an obligation to, to serve and to give back. And I think that, I think the fact that he came from so much wealth and power added credence to his argument. Uh, and as I said, and I cannot underestimate this enough, I think that his assassination was the pivotal turning point in the 1960s I think that day came and we just went in a whole different direction than we would have gone had he had lived. SM: 1:22:40 Nixon and Ford. WK: 1:22:42 Nixon probably will go down as the most paradoxical of presidents of modern times. Um, you know, ultimately, ultimately getting a peace in Vietnam, ultimately opening up relationships with China, uh, ultimately, I mean, bussing was actually Nixon. Nixon, it was the Nixon administration that proposed bussing is an equitable solution to-to, uh, racial disharmony. Um, but you cannot divorce yourself in the end. And I think that the man was, uh, a very complex, very untrusting, um, very, very paranoid guy who was a real ultimately, toward the end, was a real, dangerous guy. Uh, Jerry Ford, [stuttering] not to use the- to abuse the analogy, but Jerry Ford is the second-string quarterback. Jerry Ford was the guy that you call him when your first-string quarterback just broke his arm. Um, a decent, honorable man who had represented the conservative Grand Rapids, Michigan district quite well for quite some time, um, who, under the circumstances, made a, uh, made a noble attempt at healing, and I think, did okay. Um, pardoning Nixon caused him the election, and it should have. SM: 1:24:06 The, uh, some of the civil rights leaders you made reference to how important Dr. King was in, in your life, but your thoughts on Dr. King and the Black Power advocates, Huey Newton's Eldridge cleavers- WK: 1:24:17 See the problem with Dr. King? The problem with Dr. King is not unlike the problem with Nixon and Ford, um, that you have got a real strong number one and there is, there is really no clearly designated number two. I mean, in Atlanta, I got to know a lot more about Dr. Abernathy, and Ralph Abernathy was a good guy, and it was really unfortunate that toward the end of his life, he saw fit to, uh, in his memoirs make some reference to Dr. King's supposed infidelity, which I thought is- was a cheap shot, and, and un-un-unlike the class that Dr. Abernathy usually showed. But the problem is that, you know, there are damn few Martin Luther Kings, um, and, and Ralph Abernathy certainly was not one of them, and I do not think that Jesse Jackson, at that particular point had the wisdom, uh, or the maturity to take over the mantle of, uh, the movement. I was disappointed, frankly, getting to know Andrew Young, uh, and what a magnificent man he is. Uh, Andrew Young could have stepped in and taken over, if the movement had not fallen into-into disarray. It is too bad that he was not clearly designated number two, because I think that Andrew Young was and is uh, uh, a very, very special human being. SM: 1:25:37 Black Power advocates? WK: 1:25:42 You know, Dr. King used to always say, you know, peace through non-violence. But I sometimes wonder if a lot of that civil rights legislation and a lot of that, uh, housing for people, and the things, the kinds of things that the Black Panthers were providing, would have been provided if it were not for the Black Panthers. Uh, in Chicago, uh, Mark Clark and Freddy Hampton were two black panthers, two of the leaders of the movement, and they were shot. They were shot to death, and they were slaughtered. And every piece of forensic evidence indicates that, uh, that is what happened. I mean, they did not. They were not reaching for guns. They were one of them was nude. They were both asleep, and there was a sheriff's raid at four o'clock in the morning, and both these guys were slaughtered. I think the black the black panthers, had a lot going for them, um, and they certainly lit a fire under Congress's tail to do something about some of the problems that they were addressing. Um, Eldridge Cleaver turned out to be a real disappointment because of his skirmishes with the law. Shooting judges, raping women, um, is not the way to empower oneself. Um, but I think that many of the goals of the black peace tone nation were, were commendable, and I think that in many ways they, um, just as the Muslim, uh, nation does now, meets very real and very fundamental goals. So, the very real and fundamental needs of the of the minority community. SM: 1:27:10 Goes right into Malcolm X, died in (19)65. WK: 1:27:17 Well, Malcolm X is, is a fascinating man, because, like so many other great men, he was not born to greatness, but, um, obviously as a person, as a Caucasian person, it is easy for me to say, well, the thing I really respect the most about Malcolm X is that after his pilgrimage to Mecca, he chose to see that Islam and, and Allah is color blind, and that all men and women of good faith who follow the Will of what he referred to as Allah, as we-we would call God. Uh, all-all of us are God's children, and that that espousing that philosophy ultimately probably cost him his life. Um, I think Malcolm X is one of the most important African and probably next to Dr. King is probably the most important African American of the 20th century in terms of leaders of their people. SM: 1:28:06 Timothy Leary, Ralph Nader, and again, I am picking these names out because they were of the time. WK: 1:28:11 Timothy Leary, too-too kooky to be mainstream. Tune in, uh, turn and drop out, too kooky to be mainstream. Uh, Ralph Nader, um, an interesting growth out of the 1960s basically, um, you know, General Motors spent 1000s and 1000s of dollars trying to, to get something on this guy, you know, find an old girlfriend, or find, you know, did he pay his taxes? Or, you know, do something to besmirch him. And he was totally, completely beyond reproach, um, and, and was squeaky, squeaky clean. And I think that consumerism was in the consumer movement was an interesting offshoot of the 1960s, um, that we were not going to take the same we were not going to buy cars that, that were bad cars, you know, and we were not going to buy appliances that would fall apart. Um, an interesting offshoot of the (19)60s, no more than that. SM: 1:29:03 How about, uh, George Wallace, and I am just mentioning the Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater. WK: 1:29:09 Okay, George Wallace, uh, typical southern governor, just more of a loud mouth. Uh, his metamorphosis as a human being has been interesting to watch. Barry Goldwater was scary. He was a scary dude. He was a scary guy. Uh, I know he was the grand old statesman of Republican politics, but he was talking about dealing with Vietnam War in terms of using nuclear weapons. And that, to me, is scary. And, uh, it was, I was delighted to see LBJ win that one, um, as matter of fact, was working in the Young Democrats at the time, um, and who was the third one? SM: 1:29:43 Hubert Humphrey. WK: 1:29:45 You know, Hubert Humphrey and LBJ are almost interchangeable. Hubert Humphrey was, was an old Senate hand from the, uh, from Minneapolis who was a halfway decent vice president, but probably would have been a real mediocre president, but God compared to Nixon. I, uh, I do not know. We will never know. He did not win. So, Spear Wagner. Spiro Wagner was one of the most polarizing forces in America 19- in the in the 20th century, um, the, the spearhead of Nixon's attack against young people. Uh, A real, real, real scary guy, probably the scariest guy in the Nixon administration, be-because he was the one who forced older people to say, you were there with us or against us. Nixon did not do it as much as Agnew did. SM: 1:30:28 Muhammad Ali. WK: 1:30:30 Um, entertainer, um certainly one of the one of the preeminent figures, that of the of the 19-1960s but, uh, in terms of his lasting impact on culture, I do not think he has much. Entertainer. A magnificent boxer, um, an interesting, interesting, interesting man, probably, certainly the most interesting man that ever fought. But that is not saying a lot. SM: 1:30:58 Some of the women leaders, Gloria Steinem and, uh, Betty Friedan. WK: 1:30:58 You have to understand the women's movement, and I say this basically, having grown up in the Midwest and having lived in the South for five years, the women's movement was and is and always, probably will be perceived as an Eastern phenomenon. Now, on some level, every parent wants their daughter to be able to be the president united states. So, it was accepted to that regard, and on some level, they are all to be commended for being bringing to our attention the tremendous inequity that existed in our culture. But I do not think that there was ever a groundswell of support for the people wound around the block to get Gloria Steinem's autograph on a book, or, or Betty Friedan's autograph on a book. I think that they were thoughtful. They were thinkers. But I think that there was a, there was a perception that they were Eastern liberal thinkers who basically had a germ of a good idea, but, but, uh, it basically came from privilege to begin with. You know, tell-tell it to a woman in Kentucky who's a single mother raising three kids. You know, it te-tell her about the women's movement, and it was that, it was that kind of- SM: 1:32:07 Eugene McCarthy. WK: 1:32:10 Um, kind of a sign of how far reaching our, our hatred of the Vietnam War went, that we were willing to listen to this kind of non-entity of a senator. Uh, just it was one sole purpose, and his one sole platform was to get us out of Vietnam. SM: 1:32:27 And, uh, Robert Kennedy. WK: 1:32:28 As, as I said, Robert Kennedy was the great promise. Uh, Robert Kennedy was hopefully going to be the president that his brother was not allowed to be. Uh, Robert Kennedy was everything we believed in. Uh, He was progressive. He was not as charismatic as his brother. He had more of a temper than his brother, but he was the one who stared down Jimmy Hoffa, and he stared down George Wallace, and he was the one who sent the National Guard into the south, and he was a tough customer. And I think tha-that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had he have lived, he would have been elected in 1968 no doubt about it. SM: 1:33:01 How about George McGovern? WK: 1:33:03 George McGovern is a wonderful, uh, capable southern [stuttering] senator who represented South Dakota well, but again, falls into the McCarthy mold, where it was just- we were so desperate for anybody to say, let us end this damn war that that we settle for is very, very, very decent man. SM: 1:33:19 And the cu- finally, the, the people that are affiliated with Watergate, the John Deans of the world, the John Mitchells of the world, the, uh, group that were involved in the Watergate. WK: 1:33:32 They got caught. They got caught. John Dean sold out. He got caught. He kept a plea. He turned on his boss, and basically, he sang his song so he would not have to go to prison for more than a short period of time. Of that whole group, the ones I had the most respect for are Coulson and, uh, Liddy. Coulson, because I think time has [stuttering] time has certainly indicated that his conversion is very genuine. [mic cuts] I, um, I-I think in, in Charles Carlson's case, uh, time is- has proven that his-his conversion to Christianity is very genuine, and, uh, and has literally consumed his life. He is very comfortable with it. And I think Liddy in the sense that, uh, just as just as the left head is heavy Hoffman. The right now has Gordon Liddy, except Gordon Liddy is a real smart guy, he is a former FBI agent. He is a lawyer, and, you know, he is fond of saying, I am out because of he is a convicted felon. Uh, I am not allowed to own a gun. But Mrs. Liddy is very well armed. [laughter] Uh, Gordon Liddy. I mean, sit in a room with Gordon Liddy and talk to him. I mean, just he, when he was working for Nixon, he stood against everything I believed in, but he is a, charm, funny, uh witty- SM: 1:34:52 Got a book out, or he had a book out. WK: 1:34:54 Uh, and, and the thing I respect the most about him is he had ample opportunity to reduce his sentence, um, and he stuck by it, and he did every single hour. SM: 1:35:08 Um, Robert McNamara, WK: 1:35:11 Oh, this, this, I am getting closer to death, and I finally realized the error of my ways. So, I am so sorry I find, um, very disingenuous. Um, these guys knew what they were doing. SM: 1:35:24 Woodward and Bernstein, how important were they, names just stand out? WK: 1:35:31 They stand out. So, you know, it, it could be Smith and Jones. It could be, you know, Glick and Herman. Um, they stand out because they were very tenacious in a story that ultimately brought down the presidency. So, I think that time has shown Bob Woodward to be a decent author, a well, well written author, uh, one who still gets the good stuff. Um, some of his work is flawed, but a lot of it is good. I liked his, uh, his book on Clinton's first year, uh, the agenda is excellent. The book and the Supreme Court the brethren is very good. I-I think Carl Bernstein has not necessarily distinguished himself in the field of journalism at all. He, he, his flirtation with television was rather disappointing. His book about the Pope, uh, would that he co-authored, I forget who he c-co-authored it with, uh, was fairly well received, um, but I do not think that either one of them has necessarily turned out to be Pulitzer material. SM: 1:36:26 Um, the last two and then I am done, um, Dwight Eisenhower, and then the impact of the music that it had on the boomer generation. WK: 1:36:35 Okay, Dwight Eisenhower as a president or as a general? SM: 1:36:39 Just, just as boomers might think of him. WK: 1:36:41 Oh, well, the boomers would, would, would totally not care that he won the war or that he was the, the, um, commander in chief of the allied forces. Uh, but the one thing that he has in common with that job and also with the presidency, is a politician. He was a politician during World War Two, and he was a politician, uh, during the eight years that he was in office, he was America's grandfather. He was, I mean, how in the hell would you vote for? I mean, I can remember my parents having this conversation because they were lifelong Democrats, but voting for Eddie Stevenson, who was this aristocratic, very well spoken, um, you know, divorced man for presidency, you know, as opposed to Ike won the war, you know. And Ike was our grandfather. Ike told us, ever there, there now, everything will be okay. And, and by and large, from 1952 to 1960 everything was okay. Um, and then the last one was, who? WK: 1:37:38 Music, the music of the year, the [stuttering] Jimmy Hendrix- I do not think- SM: 1:37:38 all the great musicians and the music of that era. WK: 1:37:40 I think that the, um, the question about the music is always going to be which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the music stimulate change, or did the change stimulate the music? And I think the answer is not to cop out, but I think the answer is both. Um, I go back to what I said about the Beatles, and I think that the Beatles were the most revolutionary thing about the 1960s and, and the fact that their-their popularity originally might owe, be owing in some fashion to the death of John Kennedy, may be an interesting sidebar, but the fact of the matter is th-that that not only did they own the 1960s but basically they ushered in an era were that anything, anything that was done by a British artist, just went right to the top of the chart, uh and some of it was terrific. I mean, you know, I mean, they ushered the way in for Led Zeppelin, and they offered the, you know, Jimi Hendrix was, was a guy with a lot of promise to he had a big drug problem that took his life. Janis Joplin was this kind of raggedy, but earthy and, and gutsy and ballsy, uh, funky singer who had, you know, same thing, she had a drug problem, and it ultimately took her life. Um, 1960s had more than its share of goofy love songs. I mean, not everything was, was the Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire, you know, but, uh, certainly music played a significant role in it. You know, toward the latter part, much of the Beatles’ stuff addressed what was going on in culture. Um, there were certain artists like Joan Baez, who was not that popular, but, but whose music almost exclusively, uh, addressed what was going on in culture. Uh, interestingly enough, the crossover black artists, the Motown black artists, were the ones who would sing about, you know, things like love, universal stuff. Love, you left me. You broke my heart. Uh, where did our love go? The way you do, the things you do, things like that, but, but in that, in the quietness of that simplicity, there was a real revolution being born, white kids were really getting into black music. Instead of listening to Pat Boone sing fats, Domino's songs, or Elvis Duke, God knows how many songs that were originally done by black artists, there were now starting to hear black music by black artists and-and so in his own way [intercom interruption] In his own way, you, you have to give also a, a, a mention in the, in the 1960s to Barry Gordy, who's, who's personally a hero of mine, I-I one of my favorite interviews, if not the favorite in-interview of all time, because, um, it was not revolutionary music that sent the white kids to the to the record stores. It was, it was the universality of music. And then later on, groups like the temptations would do songs like ball of confusion. And later on, [intercom interruption] then and, and later on, uh, people like [intercom interruption] that Elias is a busy guy, uh later on, as these groups became very, very well established, they would, they would then bring in, you know, the social consciousness to the music. But originally it was all just, you know, it was, it was love songs, it was, you know, catchy tunes. And so, I mean, you really have to give you credit to Barry Gordon. SM: 1:41:00 I know big Marvin Gaye also did that, uh, controversial album, What’s Going On. WK: 1:41:04 What's going on, What's Going On. SM: 1:41:05 Got him in trouble too. WK: 1:41:06 What's Going On makes the hair on my knuckles stand up. Because basically what had happened was what Marvin had done really great rhythm and blues, bubble, not bubblegum, because Motown was never bubblegum. It always had an air of sophistication to it. But Marvin had done really great dance type music. And then just when Tammy Terrell died, who was a singing partner so often, uh, he just disappeared for a year, and he came back with What's going on. And What's going on was, o-oh, Barry Gordon hated it, you know, he hated it because he thought it did not have any sales potential and-and the fact of the matter is that Marvin had grown tremendously as an artist. And, uh, What's Going On was exactly the music for 1971. SM: 1:41:46 That is right. WK: 1:41:47 It was a hit. It was exactly what it was. SM: 1:41:50 I was here in Philly working for my brother in the summertime, for, uh, when I was in college, and I went over, I think somebody brought that out. I could not wait to play this. WK: 1:41:57 Yeah. SM: 1:41:57 Just every song on it brought goose bumps to you, it was right- WK: 1:42:01 Yeah, mercy, mercy me, you know. SM: 1:42:02 Right. WK: 1:42:02 Um, uh, so and I think that they, you know, do not forget, we did not start dealing with Vietnam in movies for seven or eight years after was over. SM: 1:42:19 Dear Honor was one of the first ones. WK: 1:42:20 Dear Honor, was one of the first ones, Coming Home was one of the first ones. The best one, though, was platoon, because it just, it was so raw, it was so in your face. It was so- SM: 1:42:23 Vets do not like that movie, though. WK: 1:42:23 Why? Smoking dope all the time. SM: 1:42:24 They feel it is, um, uh I am not exactly sure why they do not like it. They think it portrayed the Vietnam veteran and like- Yes, smoking dope, the killing, uh, is random killings, and that really upset them. And that was not all the look of Vietnam veteran was about, but images we did a program at our university with, uh, three or four Vietnam veterans, brought them back, and we had a Vietnamese student in our audience. We hired together Vietnamese students at Westchester. We brought Dan Fraley, um, who was one of the town people walked from the wall in Philly, and I interviewed him already, um, and Dennis fest, who had lost his legs in the war, and they were there, and they showed the movie, then they responded to the movie, and then it was all over. She was there in the audience, and she, you know, she came up and hugged both of them. Now, that was a memory I will never forget, because her parents were over there at the time when she was a baby. She does not remember, but, uh, she was a baby, and it was just a fact that she forgave that the American soldier. So, the memories- WK: 1:43:16 It is what I told you before, that is one of the real ironies of this whole thing. The Americans are not mad at Vietnamese. The Vietnamese are not mad at the Americans, so what gives? I got to go. SM: 1:43:31 Yeah, Wally. Thank you very much, uh. WK: 1:43:32 Okay, my pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Kennedy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kennedy, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Radio journalists; Kennedy, Wally--Interviews Description An account of the resource Wally Kennedy, a native of Chicago, is a journalist, anchor, and an educator. He is currently a news anchor for the Philadelphia KYW Newsradio and has interviewed many people ranging from Joe Biden to Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Prior to joining KYW Newsradio, he spent twenty years as a television talk host. Kennedy is a graduate of Loyola Academy, and Columbia College, in Chicago. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-02-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.75b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 103:36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eb06d5d0466948db219306ea57d679bd.jpg 46d89c2a26cc0f2725c0be1cf84333e6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d01827346f95dc834845a6e7228d6a43.mp3 cc19b319a5a4c542b5c05afb97effbe6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-05-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hugo Keesing Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Hugo Keesing is a Dutch-American popular culture historian, an educator and a pop music archivist who has an extensive collection of Vietnam war music. He has degrees from Duke University, George Washington University and a Ph.D. in Behavior Research from Adelphi University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6535,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Dr. Hugo Keesing is a Dutch-American popular culture historian, an educator and a pop music archivist who has an extensive collection of Vietnam war music. He has degrees from Duke University, George Washington University and a Ph.D. in Behavior Research from Adelphi University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 171:38 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Music; Generation gap; Bobby Rydell; Baseball cards; Collectibles; Elvis Presley; Arthur Godfrey; The Beatles; Young Americans for Freedom; Adelphi University; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Steve Perry; MacArthur Park.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">Music; Generation gap; Bobby Rydell; Baseball cards; Collectibles; Elvis Presley; Arthur Godfrey; The Beatles; Young Americans for Freedom; Adelphi University; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Steve Perry; MacArthur Park.</span> Subject LCSH Popular culture—United States; Historians; Keesing, Hugo--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Hugo Keesing Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 1 May 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two. SM (00:00:06): The first question, and I have to check this occasionally too. I want to, how did you become who you are? You were mentioning a few things, but how did you become who you are in terms of your interest in the (19)60s and interest in Vietnam? What inspired you to be a collector of historic information on records and music from that era, but just to have an interest in that period? HK (00:00:38): There are, I am sure, several factors. As I have mentioned, part of it was what was out of necessity. I arrived here off the boat, if you will, here in the US in October 1951. I was seven years old. My father had just gotten a position with the International Monetary Fund in Washington. So three brothers, I am number three of four. And we arrived, I think my English vocabulary was three or four words. I could say yes, no. For some reason I knew corn flakes, I am not sure why. But we arrived on a Tuesday and on a Thursday I was enrolled in public schools in Washington. So dad wasted no time getting us in school. And it was sort of sink or swim. We had to learn Now we were very fortunate, DC is a very international city, but that particular elementary school had a sixth grader who was Dutch, but who had lived in the US for a bunch of years. So I remember that we had permission to... There were real problem that I could leave my classroom, go to his classroom, bring him back, and he would translate to say what was I saying. The expectation was that we would all come home, family would have dinner together, and mom and dad would ask us, what was going on. And the idea was to learn five to 10 new English words every night. And one brother in particular, the one who was 13 months older, he and I quickly learned that it was through comic books, and baseball cards, and sports that we began interacting even when our English was pretty poor. So that got into the pop culture things. Now, my family, the Keesing family, my dad in particular, I guess if I go into the family tree, it is clear that there are a number of people who have been archivist historians for many, many years. Something called the Keesing Archives was a major source for news in the Netherlands. Now, all of that is online, but you can still find huge books. So for whatever reason, I am not going to argue that this would be genetic. But there was an interest in archiving, and I seem to have picked up on that. In my family for as long as I can remember there was always a tremendous interest in learning. Dad was a professor, mom was a Montessori teacher. My grandfather was a math teacher. So the idea of learning, experiencing, traveling, doing new things has been part of my life since, as long as I can remember. We were in Holland during World War II. It is unfortunate that it was the Brits who dropped a bomb that took out our home. So I am lucky to be here. My dad lost... And I did not know this at the time, but he was a collector of books. Books on economics. And I did not learn that he lost his entire collection in that bombing until the memorial service when he passed away in 1972. And the Dutch Minister of Finance, who had been his boss, said that one of the difficulties, or one of the things that really my dad never talked about was that he lost his collection. So he was a stamp collector, perhaps because my family lost virtually everything they had. Mom was one who was prepared to say things. Fortunately we had homes that had basements or attics and my mother could always come up with a reason why something should not be thrown out because it might have good use some other time. What that meant was she was also tolerant of our collecting simply the Keesings collect, everybody has, each of my brothers had a collection that was sort of unique, but mom, never put pressure on me. But evidently the kind that you got that things had to go, it was, it was good to throw it out. SM (00:05:30): It was not everything but certain things. HK (00:05:32): So I am very fortunate. I have my baseball cards, I have my records, things that I wanted to save, I was able to save. And we never, ever threw out books. And books were what was seen as an investment. You learn from them, you pick them up, you read them again and again. And so all these strands were clear from very early on. And I became a teacher. I taught my first psychology course for George Washington University in 1966. More reasons to acquire scholarly books. But from the very beginning of my teaching, I was interested in using some of these other things that I had found very important in my own learning, the popular culture. So I began trying to introduce maybe a song or something for her, studying some psychological construct. And I said, "Look, if you are wondering what it is, listen to," and I would play a piece of a record. For example, I found that even in the late (19)60s, that students liked this. And so all of these professional strands, my interest in teaching my interest in popular culture, I have been very fortunate being able to weave them all together. It was when I began using them, that also legitimized them as professional tools. So I was in the very fortunate position of being able to buy records and books on music and sheet music things, and have them all supporting my teaching. And therefore, a portion of what I invested in those books was tax-deductible when I was filing income tax. And people said, "Wow, how did your max?" I said, "I do not know whether it is lucky or whether it is good planning, but it is all just really worked out." And so now that I am formally retired, I am informally still using all of this stuff. As I said, whether it is for presentations to seniors, whether it is to work on a book on Vietnam, whether it is to lend stuff, own stuff, it is all still very relevant to me. And it is exciting. SM (00:08:06): What was it about that, you know, moved to the United States? You learned the English language through baseball cards and some of these other items, you learned English, but what was it about 1950s culture? The culture that is oftentimes really attacked when you talk about (19)60s culture, A lot of the (19)60s people were attacking the late (19)40s and (19)50s as being a period of like IBM mentality. Everybody copies everybody else. There is no room for individualism. It is all the corporate mentality. And of course, there are a lot of bad things happening with racism throughout the United States. Things were kind of coated over. And a lot of people that grew up during this period felt kind of good because they did not have any hardships like their parents had had during World War II or prior to World War II, because the question I am asking, what is it about the 1950s culture that turned you on, but turned so many other people off? HK (00:09:09): To me, it is very simple. It was mine. And I was seven when the (19)50s began, and I was 17 when they ended. So that was my youth, if you will. And the fact that it was my culture, I do not think people, my generation were knocking it. It was older people. So what was happening then, and whether it was Ricky Nelson's mind, Annette Funicello, and I met her in 19, late (19)90s. And it was incredible. It is a funny story. If we have got time, I will be happy to tell you that. So I was not aware, for example, that there were congressional committees investigating comic books or that the editor of Mad Magazine was called before Congress for, because MAD and other comics that were considered to be orally objectionable. That did not even enter my mind. I was not listening to people knocking Elvis Presley because his behavior was immodest or, I liked his music. We danced to it. So the objections to (19)50s culture were being made by an older generation. It did not sink in that with regard to music, what I remember more, for example, is getting really excited when I heard and record by the Platters, My Prayer. And I said, "Well, listen to this. This is great." And she smiled. She said, "Yeah, I know that." I said, "What do you mean, you know that?" "Well, it was also popular in my day." And I said, "No-no-no." She said, "Yeah." And eventually I checked and it came out 1933. And I resented that. I was not happy with the fact that my music, I mean, hey, it was not her fault, but I sort of suggested, if there are other songs that I like, please do not tell me that they had a previous life. And whether it was Fats Domino, Blueberry Hill was from the (19)40s. And My dream Book Comes Home was from the (19)30s. There was a lot of music in the (19)50s, which was recycled with a rock and roll or a new beat. But because it was the first version I heard became my music. And so if there was a generation gap or conflict, and my parents were very tolerant, as long as we worked hard and we got good grades in school and did not get into trouble, I was permitted, encouraged to do lots of things. But the fact that things which I regarded as part of my immediate life, I really did not want to know that it- SM (00:12:05): Had a previous. HK (00:12:05): ...might have belonged to somebody else. And of course, many, many years later, in the early (19)70s, I came back from overseas. My wife and I were entertaining some people who met there who had a 10 or 11 year old daughter that they brought with him. And at one point I said, "Can I play some music?" Because I had all these records. She said she wanted to hear Puppy Love. And so I put on Paul Anka and she said, "No-no, that is not the right one." And she wanted to hear Donny Osmond. And I said, "But this is the original one." Well, it was not to her, the Donny Osmond version. It was history repeating itself just as The Platters version of My Prayer was mine. And I did not want to know about the previous one. Dotty Osmond was hers, and she did not want to, did not care to know that Paul Anka had recorded this record and popularized it a decade or so earlier. SM (00:13:01): Well, it is interesting because when you think of (19)50s culture, Pat Boone seems to be more in sync than even Elvis, with the shaking of the hips. HK (00:13:10): Pat Boone was more in sync with parents. Pat was less threatening. Pat Boone used correct grammar, and he went to college. And I do not think that parents of 15-year-old daughters were worried that Pat would have a kind of influence on him, that Elvis might. SM (00:13:28): I wrote something down here because I wanted your thoughts on the music of the period that Boomers have been alive, which is the period from four, from (19)46 to (19)64, and of course the Beatles come in here in 1964, which changed so many things. But prior to that, there was Elvis, there was Chubby Checker, there was, and what I consider, I use this term crush music, girls have a crush, which was, yeah-yeah. Which would be Ricky Nelson, Bobby Darren, Fabian, Bobby D., Paul Anka, Bobby Rydell, the Four Seasons. Then I put some of the females in here, Leslie Gore, Petula Clark, Dusty Springfield, Lulu, Marianne Faithful. HK (00:14:12): Probably even a little later. I would the Heartthrobs, well, Annette, Connie Francis, there were not Connie Stevens. SM (00:14:25): Teresa Brewer. HK (00:14:25): Theresa Brewer was earlier. Theresa Brewer was really from (19)50 to about (19)56. And you had the Theresa Brewers, the Patty Pages, that I call them, the double names. You had Doris Day, double D, Joanie, James, double J, Patty Page, Goki Grant. I do not know whether these were their original names or people were just into alliteration. Rosemary Clooney, Joe Stafford, those are artists that I remember hearing. And in fact, the first record that I asked my parents to buy for me was Rosemary Clooney's, This Ole House in 1954. So I know that in (19)54 I was beginning to listen to the popular music. That is just a year before Rock Around the Clock. I have gone back and I have collected all that music. In retrospect, it sounds rather good. It does not have the same personal connections that beginning with The Platters in late (19)55, I mean (19)55 through (19)60, I can probably tell you where I was, who I was with, what I was doing when I heard most of those records for the first time. If I hear, I mean, okay, so that was Rahova Beach, where this was a junior high school dance. I never had learned to read music. I do not play music. I channeled all of my musical interests into collecting records, learning who sang what was on the flip side. So I really have been a music historian. I was a DJ at Many Points, a music historian. So music has been incredibly important. And if I have a regret, it is that I still have not learned to read music. And my grandsons right now saying, "Opa, it is really easy." When you have got an eight-year-old telling you it is really easy, and here is how you learn to play the piano. So they gave me the strip that I can put on the piano upstairs, which is supposed to help me understand the chords. But I carry got oh, 50,000 songs in my head that I can start singing. SM (00:16:43): Was there, would you say, or would you admit that the Patty Pages, that those types singers in the (19)50s were very symbolic of what the (19)50s were truly all about? That it was when Elvis shook his hips, when Chuck Barry did his thing, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Pumping Gas and Little Richard, that these were the ones that scared people because they were, and Bo Diddly, they were a little bit different. And so they were not very... Were people that thought they were a threat. They were like absolutely beats. They were they, to the beat writers of the period different than some of the writers? Would you compare them? Were they predecessors to this attitude that things were changing when the (19)60s came? HK (00:17:32): By the time the (19)60s came, I think there had been some major changes. As I was writing my dissertation 40 years ago, some of these ideas have been floating around. I was able to formalize, for example, up until the mid (19)50s, there really was not a youth culture. Kids were expected to be sort of miniature versions of their parents. They were expected to dress the same as their parents. They were expected to go into the same jobs or occupations, do the same things, like the same things as their parents. So they were scaled down versions of adults. And therefore, there was not music that was intended for young people, there were not clothing styles that were necessarily keyed on young people. It was not, I think, until the early to mid (19)50s that the war was far enough in the background and that there was sufficient, that economically, middle class parents were at a point where kids could get more than a quarter allowance. And I was getting a nickel and then 10 cents, then a quarter. Well, with a quarter a week I could buy baseball cards and maybe a comic book, but not much else. But beginning in the mid to late (19)50s and kids started getting sufficient money to become consumers, and as kids became consumers, there was a whole world out there ready to take their money and to begin creating commerce aimed at kids’ things specifically aimed at kids. And one way to make it attractive to kids was to make sure that parents did not like it. Parents liked Pat Boone. So teenagers my age we are less inclined. If he is okay with mom and dad, and I am trying to separate myself as an individual and begin to establish my own identity, then I should like somebody my parents do not like. And that could be Elvis. And so a lot of growing up, being a teenager is learning to differentiate yourself from your parents. SM (00:20:03): Was that kind of like, I can remember two specific instances of people that were admired by the Boomer parents. That is Arthur Godfrey, when he fired Julius LaRosa for having an affair with some other person, he was very popular. And the other one was Mitch Miller. When he had an affair with Leslie Uggams, he was unpopular. And he went like... HK (00:20:28): But Arthur Godfrey was, he was in DC and I guess I was aware of him, but certainly as far as an influence on my generation, I do not think so. Not at all. And McGuire Sisters were less interesting than the Shirelles or the Chantels? Right. So if it was associated with adults, then it was intrinsically less interesting than something that my parents did not know about. As an example of my family, there was an artist who had a [inaudible], Nervous Norvus. He had a song Transfusion about cars racing and wrecking and needing blood transfusions. It was the sort of thing that parents thoroughly disliked because it first, musically, it was terrible. And singing and glorifying car wrecks was not what they had. But he also had a song called Ape Call at various points in this record, and I can play it for you, there would be this loud scream. Well, evidently my dad did not like that. And the only time I can remember mom commenting on music is when she told my brother and I, please do not play that when your father's at home, or if you play it, make sure, because what we would love to do is we would play the record and then just before the scream, we turned the volume all the way up. So this really, really loud scream, but evidently Dad did not care for that at all. And so that was the only song we were told should not be played when dad was home, for the rest, as long as the music did not get all that loud, I guess it was a fair game. They were letting us grow up and find stuff that was ours. SM (00:22:31): Would you say that just as in the 1950s, the difference between Pat Boone and Elvis? Elvis was kind of a revolutionary person. The Beatles was the revolutionary group that came (19)64. Really, when you are talking (19)46 to (19)63, and then all of a sudden in (19)64, the Beatles come, everything changes from then on. Is that? HK (00:22:56): I think the reasons for the popularity of Elvis and the Beatles in my mind are quite different. I mean, Elvis clearly was a rejection of the kind of puritanical, uptight values, the traditions. Elvis was a white boy who sang black. Elvis was threatening Elvis sneered, if you had a 15-year-old daughter, you worried about Elvis taking her virginity or something like that. Pat Boone was the antithesis. Pat Boone did not kiss his co-star, Shirley Jones, because he was married. So Pat was good, and Elvis was bad, and Elvis was in the same old as James Dean and Marlon Brando. He represented the counterculture that is in represented the change, the new energy, the new vitality, the rejection of some of the old cultures. We will never know. I do not know if the Beatles would had the impact, if Kennedy had not been assassinated. In November (19)63, there had been Beatle records. There had been a couple of Beatle records available in the US in (19)63. I first heard them in Holland in (19)63 and thought, okay, interesting. But it was not anything spectacular. But Americans needed, especially America's youth, needed something to take their minds off. Dallas, Texas, in November (19)63, the Beatles were the antidote to the sort of, call it almost generational depression, if you will. I was, what, a junior at Duke. I remember where I was when I heard Walter Cronkite announce the shootings, et cetera. That was something I will not forget. I was not initially enamored with the Beatles, I was much more in tune with Phil Specter and the Girl Group sound, The Ronettes and The Crystals. SM (00:25:22): Oh, that was great. HK (00:25:23): I mean, fabulous stuff. My early (19)60s artists who are now all the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame were Orison, Del Shannon, and Jean Pitney, because I thought musically, they were ahead of, they sang melodies that you could sing. Those were my favorites. But the Beatles and the British Invasion were a means by which America's youth could turn away from Dallas. I mean, it was not only the music, but again, there was a revolution in styles, whether it was haircuts or whether it was the clothing styles that were personified by Twiggy, and what was her name? Mary Quant, I think it was. But the miniskirts, the whole British European thing became a way to refocus youthful energy, interest, et cetera. So it was not necessarily rejecting the parents' values and the parents' culture, but it was sort of, okay, we need to break out of this depression. This young youthful president is gone, he is dead. We need to find something to reenergize us. And to me, the Beatles were initially seen as clean cut. It was The Rolling Stones who were the antithesis. These were the scruffy guys who got arrested for pissing in public places and stuff like that. But the early British sound is pretty mild. I mean, these are sort of funny little tunes. Hermann's Hermits, [inaudible] The Pacemakers, Peter and Gordon, different from the Kinks, or the Rolling Stones, or the Yardbirds, who were, again, who were blues influenced more of the black rhythm, blues culture, et cetera. So there was that difference as well. SM (00:27:32): Yeah, when you are talking about the change in the culture, obviously when we are talking mid to late (19)60s, we are talking the true counterculture, which is dress, long hair, music, drugs, sexual revolution, living some sort of communal lifestyle was really late (19)60s, (19)70s, particularly after the war ended. But then you had the groups like The Doors and Janice Joplin, Jimmy Hendricks, so many, we can list so many different groups, and were really, students were turning on. That was really a rejection of the (19)50s. It was really, we are going to change the world. We are going to... HK (00:28:19): There were so many things. I was an undergraduate from (19)61 to (19)65. I was dating a young lady who was also in college, and I remember in (19)63, I would think that Gwen's mother gave me a copy of The Feminine Mystique and encouraged me to read it because her daughter was going to grow up to be someone different from, let us say, the role models for the girls who went to college to get their MRS. SM (00:28:56): Yes. HK (00:28:59): In the, let us see. In (19)62, one of the figures on campus that people knew was Peter Clawford. He was a biologist. He worked boots to class, but he was also taking students to Greensboro on sit-ins. And in Durham, there were lots of places where blacks were not welcomed. I do not believe there were any black undergraduates in Duke in (19)61, (19)62, (19)63. On the other hand, when the KKK came marching through Durham and trying to get a permit, I think, to come on campus, most of the Duke students were out there in a counter-protest. So while Duke was still a Southern school, segregated in terms of its politics, it was beginning to catch up when what was happening in the (19)60s. So you had civil rights. I had a roommate in college who was a member of the, what was it? The Young Americans for Freedom. SM (00:30:11): Yeah, that is the conservative right? HK (00:30:13): Yes. And Bill Buckley, who was a Goldwater. I was not campaigning in (19)64, but had I been able to vote, I would have voted for Johnson. And he was voting. He was very, very conservative. And so, one of the things I learned early on that did not interest me was politics. We did not talk politics. We coexisted as roommates, but with the tacit agreement, if you will, that we talked about school, we talked about girlfriends, but I have never been one to get drawn into political debates or arguments. I just do not find it very interesting. But it is clear that things were changing. So the role for women, my girlfriend's mom brought that home, politics were changing. Race relations were changing. We were concerned about a war in Cuba, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Bay of Pigs. We had an air raid drill at Duke. I learned where the air raid shelters were located, not because anyone knew about Vietnam, but because of Cuba. Even in (19)65, when I graduated and my draft status was quickly changed from 2S to 1A, I do not think at that point I was all that concerned about the military guy. I had a brother who was in the army. I had another brother who was in law school and who was working very hard to keep his deferment. And I had planned to go either to medical school or going to clinical psychology, and was fairly sure at that point, that was still a deferment category. So the wars or the conflicts were out there, but were not a central part of what I was doing. But I became aware of some of these things through music. Eve of Destruction was Barry McGuire, 1965, the Houston Eastern World is exploding, violent, slur and bullet exploding. SM (00:32:37): I remember when he was on TV for the first time, singing that live. I am not sure if that was Shindig or Hullabaloo or... HK (00:32:43): Those were my shows. SM (00:32:46): I love those shows. HK (00:32:49): And so these were records that I was collecting. I was listening to Where Have All Flowers Gone by The Kingston Trio, not connecting it specifically, but becoming aware that music was not just, as you say about boy meets girl, boy loses girl, et cetera. It was more than love themes that in the early (19)60s, music was beginning to change and beginning to become what I would call in my dissertation, a barometer, an early warning system of things that were in flux. So a song by The Exciters called Tell Him, this is a girl telling another girl. If you like a guy, tell him, do not wait for him. In other words, become more active. Do not be passive that girls can ask boys out or songs about war in a general way. Masters of War, Bob Dylan, Soldier Boy. I would have connected that more with Berlin probably, or, but any rate, I began listening to songs for more than just messages of, I think when I was in junior high school, I found talking to girls relatively difficult. That would not have been unusual, but one way that I could communicate was by selecting records, which by the way, was a great reason for collecting, taking them to parties, because, if you were in charge of the records, you knew what was coming up, and you knew which girl you were going to ask, and you could communicate simply by, "Okay, listen to this next one. That is really the way I feel." So I learned early on that music, in addition to being entertainment could be used in a proactive way. You could exchange information through music. You could take information from music, you could learn from music. HK (00:35:02): Take information from music, you could learn from music. While it had been teen concerns in junior high school and high school, by the time I got to college there were bigger concerns that were showing up in the pop music kit. As I was collecting the popular songs, I became aware that there was this whole new category, I call it "topical pop." And then at some point I began looking for songs with messages, looking for songs with " My daddy is president, what is your daddy?" I thought, "That is pretty huge." This is about Caroline Kennedy. So some of the early ones would have been political, but certainly by the time I was finishing my graduate work, a different aspect of music was coming in for comments in (19)69 and (19)70, as you had both the war and the perceived problem with drugs. If you recall, Vice President Agnew, as the spokesman for the Nixon administration, was frequently quoted as saying that music is one of the causes of the problems that we have right now. Songs glorifying drug use are in fact creating some of the drug problems that we have. And so there was a lot of effort in listing bad songs, like Puff the Magic Dragon is a drug song. My comment, my retort to that was, "Well, if Puff, the Magic Dragon is a drug song then and what about Fly Me to the Moon? Was Frank Sinatra on a drug trip? But what happened, working with a mentor, a professor at Adelfi University who had a clinical practice. George and I played basketball and we would chat. And when he said, "Hugo, I am working with some teenagers who have behavioral problems that include drugs, but I am really finding it difficult to kind of break through and find some common ground to begin therapy. I called him Dr. Stricker until after I got my PhD. So I said, "Dr. Stricker, have you thought about music as sort of a bridge where you might ask your client what does she think of a particular song? You might even play it and try?" And he said, "No." And I said, "Would you like me to put together some music for you such as White Rabbit by the Jefferson Airplane, et cetera?" And George said he would appreciate that. So I put together a little tape of some music that I thought might have the ability to get some reaction. And it was not just drug music. I remember another one that I used was Sky Pilot by the Animals, which (19)68, so that was a war-related song about a chaplain in the Air Force who sends people off to kill and they come back. And how does he reconcile that with, what is it, the seventh commandment, or the sixth, whichever one it is that is "Thou shall not kill." So it had a message that a teenager listening to that music might pick up on, and therefore there might be some basis for getting a conversation started. And that convinced me that there were others who felt that music had gone beyond simply entertaining. If the Vice President is claiming that music about suicides, music about the war, music about drugs, is in fact influencing, impacting, causing certain behaviors. As far as I know, there is no evidence to support that. So to make a long story short, I finished my coursework in 1970. I was a dissertation short of my doctorate, and I had found myself in a very narrow cognitive learning area. This was the dissertation that I took with me overseas. And once I got to Okinawa and then later Vietnam, I realized that there was nothing in this project that in any way held a kind of interest that would sustain me, that would cause me to work on it while I was in Asia. So I thought back to music, which I always carried with me, and which I found in Vietnam had perhaps even greater importance. And I wrote George, Dr. Stricker. I had a couple of questions. I said, "Dr. Stricker, do you think Adelphi University would accept a dissertation focusing on popular music and its impact on youth? And if the answer to that is yes, would you consider being my chair for this?" And while I was in Vietnam, I got a post order letter back and he said yes to both. And suddenly my world changed, because now there was an opportunity. I did not need a library because I was carrying so much of this with me. So it was more sit down and begin putting on paper one of these ideas. That would have been early 1970, and in October or November of 1972, just two years later, I completed what would be one of the earliest dissertations on looking at whether there was in fact any document [inaudible] relationship, especially causal relationship, between what was happening in youth culture and what was happening in popular music. SM (00:41:24): Wow. HK (00:41:25): The answer is no. No causal relationships that I could find, but this is where I came into the notion of an early warning system, that musical trends, something might be happening in California or somewhere else, and music would bring it to the attention of the East Coast. Surfing, California, Hawaii. But the Beach Boys brought an interest to surfing to the East Coast. I remember the early (19)60s being at Rehoboth and seeing a VW with a surfboard on top. There was no surfing ever in Rehoboth because the coastline was not appropriate. But the surfing culture, the straight hair for the girls, the baggies, et cetera, music brought that to the East Coast. All right, that legitimized, that caused me to look even more closely for songs that had messages, or songs that had political overtones, songs that were topical. And from 1970 on, I have really been listening for, collecting, categorizing, listing, putting it all together. This Vietnam project is just the most recent expression of all that. SM (00:42:42): It is unbelievable. I am going to look at this a second. HK (00:42:54): Before [inaudible] I was traveling whenever I could to see more of the world, but whether it was one or two or three hours a day, this was sufficient interest that I was able to write the dissertation in just over a year. SM (00:43:09): How long was the defense? I will not take that. HK (00:43:14): When I went back to Europe, with credentials now, I was not shy about using them. I was assigned to Ramstein in Germany for a couple of terms, and one of the first things I did was to go to the American Forces Radio station in Kaiserslautern, introduced myself and said, "Guys, I just finished a doctorate on pop music. Is there something we can do with this?" And that station had an obligation, I think, as most of the stations in Europe did, to create some provisional programming that could go out on American Forces Europe. So I met a DJ named Scott Trackson and Scott said, "Let us think about how we can do this." So we broke the dissertation up into 12 parts, called it, what was the name of the show? Not Rock Recollections, something like that. But we sat down and then he would interview me about some of the things that I had found out and then play the music. And then he would say, "Okay, Dr. Keesing, how do you think this worked?" It turned out to be 12 one-hour shows. They were aired throughout Europe. I got fan mail. "This is very interesting. How can we get hold of Dr. Keesing and how can we learn more about it?" AFN gave me a little plaque for my contributions. But then I did a short paper for, what was it, the Eastern Psychological Association somewhere in the mid-(19)70s. I was trying to establish credentials as a teacher and going to professional meetings. So I wrote a paper on youth in transition. I gave the paper at. A panel when it was over, the editor of a book came by and said, "I really like what you presented. Can I have it? I am about to publish a book and I would like to use it." I said, "Well, this was a paper." And he said, "No. If it is about this long..." Hold on, I will show you this. A month or two of having presented... Here we go. "The pop message: a trend analysis of the psychological content of two decades of music." All right, it was I presented a paper, a week later sent him a copy, and two months later, I have my first publication in the Book of Readings. SM (00:46:12): My God. HK (00:46:15): So all of this was reinforcement for the notion that music is important. Music and psychology and adolescent behavior and youth culture are a legitimate package. This is about (19)75 when for most traditional academics, pop culture and pop music were sort of throwaway. But I had a dissertation. I had a chapter in a book. I had a radio show. And so I felt as if I had a solid foundation for including music in my teachings and approaching the University of Maryland and suggesting something more formal. How can I build this into a course? First effort was in the honors program. It went over very well. And then again, sort of the fortuitous coming together, the father of popular culture studies in the US, a gentleman name Ray Brown was on a two-year sabbatical at the University of Maryland. He was at Bowling Green State in Ohio, came to Maryland. He was there. I knew Ray from professional meetings and I said, "Dr. Brown, can I get your support for creating a course at the University of Maryland that would really study contemporary American history using music as the main source?" And Ray thought that would be a great idea. And so I created something called American Studies 298a, popular music in American society. It began modestly in 1975 or (19)76 with 17 students in one class and 35 in the other. And in three years I had moved from a classroom to an auditorium that sat 300, where my average enrollment was 280 to 400 students. All of that sort of continued. First of all, it fed the need to stay current. So I began collecting Vietnam music and political music, Watergate, all of those records. Because I now had a formal way to bring them into my class. It meant that the books I used to teach were books on the (19)60s. One of my favorites... Here are my textbooks. Glory and the Dream. SM (00:48:43): Oh yeah, Glory and the Dream. HK (00:48:43): What are some of the others? SM (00:48:49): There is Todd Gitlin's book, I know you have got there. HK (00:48:52): His book is right here. A very interesting book, Year by Year in the [inaudible], which makes the connection between music and all of the events that were going on. And what is even better about this. SM (00:49:17): Wow, there is good. Wow, I never heard of this book. HK (00:49:23): Well, I have used this since then. When I have gone to concerts and I have gotten Everly Brothers. It is probably long, long out of print, but this would tell you news that influenced the rock era. statistics, what people were doing. And it begins exactly at your point where you are interested. SM (00:49:45): Right. HK (00:49:46): So this would definitely be one. SM (00:49:49): You might be able to find this on Amazon. HK (00:49:52): You could probably try it. Yeah. SM (00:49:54): I have this book. HK (00:49:54): But this is also why- SM (00:49:56): I have that one. HK (00:49:57): I tried to use books like this that would encourage students, that would use music as the primary tool, but that had everything about the culture surrounding it. This was, I think, the last text that I used. SM (00:50:14): Do you really believe as a person who studied music for decades, that the music of the (19)60s and say the (19)70s, through the mid (19)70s, more than any other period in our history, had more messages, gave more messages, and had an influence on the young people that were growing up in that era than any other era. I say this because even when you think of the World War II generation, you think of those songs like, oh, the White Cliffs of Dover. HK (00:50:49): Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition. SM (00:50:50): Yeah. Or people are not coming home. There is messages about people who have died and are not coming back home. There were some messages in other music from the (19)40s, I believe, but not like this period. HK (00:51:08): I agree with you, and one of the reasons that I have spent so much time studying war music is because wartime brought more message music than any other time. I mean, there is still the songs of love and separation. But back in that room, I have got 11,000 pieces of sheet music related to World War II. That is my other huge interest. So I have 70 or 80 different monographs that I have put together on themes from World War II sheet Music. And when I began publishing on music and wartime, the first article was World War II and Vietnam. I wanted to see to what extent the messages were the same, were different. And in fact, the Vietnam War music is very different from the World War II-related music. SM (00:52:16): In what way? HK (00:52:17): Specifically, because the wars were so different, the music that is associated with Vietnam from the earliest point, which would be about 1960, (19)61, would be songs that were vaguely pacifist, such as Where Have All The Flowers Gone? I mean, it is not an anti-war tune, but it talks about the futility of war. Soldier Boy is about separation, but it is certainly not like You are a Sap Mr. Jap to Make the Yankee Cranky, or Remember Pearl Harbor. We sort of found we were in Vietnam for a bunch of years before there were any songs that really mentioned Vietnam. The first pop song that mentions Vietnam that I was able to run across is called The Big Draft by the Four Preps. And it is a comedy tune that where this group parodies The Platters in this case, and it says, "Our new records a bomb, they have never heard of us in South Vietnam." So South Vietnam was sort of an incidental point. World War II, you had songs about, I mean, there are hundreds of songs about the Japs, some of them extremely racist. Songs about Hitler. Songs about military units, about battles, about generals, lots of interesting music about the women in the service, the WACs, the WAVES, the SPARs, the Lady Marines who were all new. But I do not think I have in the sheet music of 11,000, more than two or three songs that could be considered critical of war or certainly nothing of World War II. I mean, there may have been, war is not a good thing, but nothing that was critical of US involvement in World War II. It was a righteous war. It was America had been attacked and the entire music industry and more so even the people at home, because maybe 80 percent, 75 or 80 percent of what I have there is music written by your average citizen. It is self-published. It is not by major publishers. It is not by Irving Berlin or Frank Lesser. It is people writing from the heart. Vietnam began with protest music, whether it was Universal Soldier of Buffy Sainte-Marie, whether it was Eve of Destruction by McGuire or PF Sloan. And from (19)65 on, you already had the beginning of a divisiveness, because after Eve of Destruction, you may remember there was an answer record called the Dawn of Correction by the Spokesmen refuting each point that McGuire made. And after Buffy Sainte-Marie's, the Universal Soldier, Jan Barry of Jan and Dean recorded the Universal Coward. SM (00:55:38): I think you mentioned that at your- HK (00:55:40): So you begin getting this tug-of-war music. War music became polarizing from very early on. And there was no polarity in World War II music. It was all strongly supportive of the US and every aspect of its effort. And it was uniformly critical of the Germans and the Italians and Japanese, et cetera. So World War II music, single focus, we are going to win this. We are going to achieve victory over the bad guys. Vietnam, from the onset, it was unclear why were we there? Where were we? Most people did not know where Vietnam was. What are we doing there? What are our objectives? Never clear. And the music that I associate with Vietnam from 1960, for 50 years, the music has been unable to clarify a war that was never clear. The arguments over were we right? Were we wrong? Did we lose? Did we win? They have not been settled. SM (00:56:55): Yeah. In fact, there has been a lot of albums made that are advertised in the Vietnam magazine that you can buy. People you have never heard of. HK (00:57:05): Well, you are going to hear of some of them. SM (00:57:06): Yeah. HK (00:57:13): I saw the ad for John Black in here. SM (00:57:17): Yes, John. Yes. HK (00:57:18): We have got, I think three of Black's cuts are on the box. And I said, "Look, we need to do something similar." And I was told that Vietnam Magazine will in fact, review our- SM (00:57:33): How about the people like the Chris Noel's, some of the singers that were there, or the women that were over there. I think Chris Noel, I am not sure if she did any songs. Oh my God, yeah, I met her. HK (00:57:55): Yep. And we include Forgotten Man. SM (00:57:59): Oh my gosh. I did not even know she did an album. HK (00:58:01): Is one of the ones on the box set. And we also have a 35 or 40 second clip of her date with Chris Show for American Forces Radio. So with Joe's permission or understanding, she is the only woman I think who is included on a disc of all veteran songs, because she was made in honorary Vietnam veterans. SM (00:58:31): Yes-yes. HK (00:58:31): So everything else is by men, but Chris Noel as an honorary vet, as the distinction of being the only woman with a song on one of the last two CDs. SM (00:58:42): How about the Native American, also, musicians? Bill Miller, I think he is a great Native American singer. Do you know Bill Miller? HK (00:58:51): I do not know Bill Miller. I have got one Native American, Jesse Nighthawk with a CD that is entirely Vietnam-oriented. It is a very powerful CD. I have passed along to Bear Family a request that maybe we put 30 seconds of some of the songs on Facebook so that people can listen to and get a sense of what they may be hearing. And for one of the CDs, we are looking at the possibility of one song from each CD. Jesse Nighthawk as the one that I want to feature on, I guess, CD 12, APO San Francisco Visits. It is just an extremely powerful song. SM (00:59:42): Buffy Sainte-Marie has got a new album out. I am trying to interview her. She has agreed to be interviewed, but she has to do it on computer. But she has got an unbelievable new album. HK (00:59:54): We are using her Universal Soldier. I had requested a second song, Moratorium, and for some reason we could not get licensing for that. So she will be included in the set. SM (01:00:10): And talking about the music during the time the Boomers have been alive and they are only hitting about 63 years old. HK (01:00:17): I am collecting Social Security. SM (01:00:26): Yeah, but you are young. HK (01:00:28): I am young. Okay. SM (01:00:28): Yeah. And what I found out in the interview process, that people that were born, Richie Havens was born in (19)40 or (19)41, considers himself a Boomer. He says, "That is my mentality." HK (01:00:41): Psychologically. And the culture, I am certainly [inaudible]. SM (01:00:44): You are right in there. All right. What are your thoughts on, I am talking about the Boomer music now. Let us say we are into the (19)76 period now, disco. I know there is a brand-new book out by a professor at Rutgers University. She has just written a book on the history of disco, and I bought it. Ann Eccles is her name. It is supposed to be a very good book. What are your thoughts on the music from the disco, which seems to be the cutoff point, and then you get into the (19)80s and the (19)90s and today's music. This is all part of the Boomer generation, even though it is geared toward younger people, but disco's certainly part of that Boomer era. HK (01:01:30): Yeah. As an academic, I look for trans patterns. I think one of the important technological changes or events was when FM radio came to prominence in the late (19)50s, early (19)60s. The Payola hearings changed AM radio. I grew up with mobile disc jockeys who played whatever they wanted to. But by the late (19)50s, with Dick Clark, Alan Freed and others, the restrictions on what individual DJs could play were put in place. And you began to get formatted top 40. So beginning in the mid-(19)60s, the sound changed. And then with the advent of FM, you began getting what was then called alternative. So the top 40 were really the music that you heard in the mid-(19)50s until the mid-(19)60s. And then suddenly with FM albums and album-oriented artists and longer cuts could be played on the radio. I mean, The Doors- SM (01:02:51): Light My Fire. HK (01:02:52): Et cetera. Who were much more popular on FM and whose album cuts became better known than some of their singles. And so I was already a little bit beyond, because music was always a tool for me. And by (19)65, I had graduated from college, I was in graduate school, and music's importance to my life was changing. It became more a subject of interest, and sort of the currency the day in terms of where did you go? What did you listen to? What did you bring to parties? So FM music brought in new artists. It also brought in the themes because FM radio had more leeway in terms of what it played than AM. AM was more conservative. It was considered more for kids. The thoughtful late teenagers were now finding their FM stations and getting deep into Jimi Hendrix as opposed to the bubblegum music, for example, because bubblegum was a little bit before. I look at disco as sort of the in-motion bubblegum. Disco, the lyrics were not very heavy, but it was great for dancing. And music, whether it was Chubby Checkers and all of the Twist records in the early (19)60s, disco was simply the continuation of one musical strand, which is, if you ever watched Dick Clark or American Bandstand, the records were rated: "It is got a good beat. You can dance to it. I will give it an 85." So for some listeners, music was primarily about does it have a good beat and can you dance to it? They were less concerned with the lyrics than could they dance to it. And that reminds me of American Forces, AFN, banned Eve of Destruction. And there were some articles on Eve of Destruction that came out in the late (19)60s trying to prove that music like this ought to be banned because it was anti-American and it was bad influence. And one of the studies on Eve of Destruction found that most teens did not have a clue as to what the song was about. They would listen to it and say, "You cannot really dance to it. I do not like it because I cannot dance to it," when asked, "Well, what are the politics? What is the message?" So a lot of kids did not listen for messages in music. It is more a visceral experience. I was one of those who was less interested in the beat and more interested in the learning. SM (01:05:44): Did you see this in your studies, that this was changing as you get into the late (19)60s and say through 1973, because I consider the (19)70, (19)71, (19)72, (19)73, all part of the (19)60s. I listened to the words, I wanted to hear the words. And what upset me is when I could not hear the words. HK (01:06:07): FM music was more attuned to letting you listen to an entire track, or maybe even playing an entire side of an album. And so the ability to go beyond the two and a half minutes of vigorous exercise, i.e. dancing, FM allowed you to do that. People my age began buying albums probably in the early (19)60s. Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul, and Mary, those were album artists. But the currency, I like to use that term, was still primarily singles. If you were 14, 15, 16, and you did not have 3.98 or 4.98 to buy an album necessarily, besides many albums were simply greatest hits where you got all the singles and flip sides. And so until the Beatles began creating albums for themselves, it was more than just a collection of songs. That is to say that younger kids were still primarily into 45s. And 45s, certainly the pop 45s rarely had much of a message. Now, what I have subsequently learned is that virtually all of the message music from the 60s and early (19)70s is country or folk. Folk, usually on LPs, cuts by Joan Baez, by Tom Paxton, by Phil Oaks, by Buffy Sainte-Marie, and people like that. Or if they are Country and Western, it is singles, obscure labels distributed out of Nashville, stuff that probably never sold. But these were people who felt strongly enough to put their words into song, maybe print a hundred records, and that was the last you ever heard of it. But some of the most interesting Vietnam stuff is from those Country and Western singles that came out between early (19)60s to early (19)70s. SM (01:08:18): Yeah, I tell you that Arlo Guthrie too, his music, Alice's restaurant. HK (01:08:25): That there was an Alice's Restaurant Massacre, which came out as a single, maybe four and a half minutes. But to appreciate that you have to listen to the 16 or 17 minute album cut. You cannot get that. SM (01:08:37): Yeah. And the first time you listened to it, because he performed at my alma mater. I saw him twice. HK (01:08:45): I heard him do it in Forest Hills at the tennis stadium in (19)68 or (19)69, somewhere around there. He was just sitting there and strumming away. SM (01:08:58): As the Boomer generation's getting older, in terms of the late (19)70s and the year of Ronald Reagan and the (19)80s. And the (19)80s had really good music. I liked the music of the (19)80s, but it seemed like there was a return of a lot of solo artists at that time. When I think of the (19)80s, I think of those MTVs, watching them on MTV, which was a great way of watching the music and getting to know the songs. But groups like Air Supply, Police. HK (01:09:29): Journey. SM (01:09:29): Duran Duran. HK (01:09:31): REO Speed wagon. SM (01:09:35): Yeah, but I thought it was great music. Steve Perry. HK (01:09:38): Oh yeah. SM (01:09:38): Oh Sherrie. HK (01:09:39): Oh Sherrie. SM (01:09:40): Yeah. But to me, it seemed like it was almost like a return to the (19)50s. It was not a whole lot of messages, but just really good music. Just a lot of solo artists, African American and white, male and female. HK (01:09:56): But beginning with the first divide between AM and FM, and that is... HK (01:10:02): And FM, and that is mid (19)60s, mid to late (19)60s. I mean, in the (19)50s, I think virtually every teenager was listening to the same body of music. By the mid to late (19)60s, you began to find the purchases between album-oriented listeners and those who were still listening to singles and singles became teen bopper music. Bobby Sherman, and David Cat. And music like that. So album... SM (01:10:41): Mark Wansey was another one. HK (01:10:44): Paul Revere and the Raiders. Albums offered more potential for becoming creative. For, I mean, the Beatles were certainly the ones that helped move that along. And so people began creating niches that black music, soul music, R&B and-and Rock and Roll were, except at least in Washington, were synonymous that DJs had listened to, played Little Richard and played Fat [inaudible], played Chuck Barry, et cetera. Now, if you were in the South, maybe you did not hear them. Maybe segregated, their first segregated radio stations boom and the youth culture of the mid-(19)50s put an end to that because kids, once they found out that Little Richard really sang Long Paul Sally, and that it was much better than Pat Boon's version, simply would not accept a station that would only play the white versions, the cover versions. So teenagers made clear that they wanted their rock and roll in its original form, and by its original artist. By the mid-(19)60s, James Brown is helping to take black music a step further. Motown was music by blacks for a broad audience. And some would argue that Motown was too white, even though the artists were black. But the music represented by James Brown, and then later on Funk, these were very clearly aimed at a black urban audience. And while white kids enjoyed much of that music as well, the specialization of musical styles began. I mean, disco. Disco was not just the twist, but disco became a musical style with a culture that went with it, with the leisure suit and Discos and John Travolta. SM (01:12:43): Some people say it was gay culture. Some people think, well, I read that in Anne Eckle's book. HK (01:12:49): Yeah, yeah. Perhaps it is... SM (01:12:54): Saturday Night Fever, yeah. HK (01:12:56): But you did not have to be gay to enjoy disco. I mean, if disco was embraced by gays, that is one thing. But to say that everybody who listened, enjoyed disco was somehow gay. I think that that, that is turning that thing upside. SM (01:13:09): Bee Gees. That is unbelievable. I love the Bee Gees. HK (01:13:12): Yep. But with disco, you also got an emphasis on what electronics drummers now had electronic drum sets, synthesizers. So there was an emphasis on production. Again, Phil Spector songs, I liked them because the wall of sound. By the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, David Foster, one of the reasons I like Steve Perry and Journey is because there is the big orchestration behind it. And so you and I like that music. Others felt that that was way overblown, and were looking for the stripped down music. I mean, take all of that fancy electronic stuff out. Just give me a guitar. It took a while longer, but artists like Eric Clapton became popular again, but unplugged. In other words, you liked, some people liked him when in the electric versions and others, none of them. I did not like him until I heard him unplugged. This was the reverse, what was it, (19)65? When Dylan went to Newport and folk music went from acoustic to electric. The purists were offended, but we would not have had The Birds and The Turtles and The Lovin' Spoonful if Dylan had not done that. And so what? A decade, decade and a half later, it is all right, let us get back to the basics. So by the late (19)70s, mid (19)70s, to me, music had fractured. There were still Casey Case in the American Top 40, and for many people, that was still the way to know what was what. But there were an awful lot of artists whose records did not make Top 40, who became tremendously influential. I mean Led Zeppelin. But how many records did they have that made Top 40? Stairway to Heaven never made the top 100, and yet I was looking at this for each of my classes, Maryland, I would ask my students, okay, what are your top three rock and roll songs? And I have this information from the (19)70s on. The biggest ones were Stairway to Heaven, a Free Bird, and Amy by Pure Prairie League. There were a couple overs, some Springsteen, Born to Run. Did that make it as a single? SM (01:15:54): No, I do not think the Grateful Dead ever had singles. Did they? No. HK (01:15:57): Touch of Gray. Grateful Dead, Springsteen, Billy Joel's early stuff did not come out of singles. But these were the mid-(19)70s artists. I mean, the popular ones. I call them the ABCDs. You had Aba, you know, B was Red, C was The Carpenters. D was John Denver. A was The Eagles. These were the people who were selling singles. But it was Springsteen, Joel, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, The Who, who were selling huge amounts of music, but not AM top four. SM (01:16:37): When I think of the period from the disco period, because I was working at Ohio University in my very first job, Berry White was so big. HK (01:16:47): Oh, yes. Wonderful. SM (01:16:49): And I do not care, even though I am from the (19)60s from that period and everything, let the music play. Just when I first heard that, I said, let the music play. It just made you feel good. And I thought he was a genius. And then Donna Summer. HK (01:17:05): Donna Summer. SM (01:17:05): Because when she sang that song that they would not play on the radio the full version, Love to Love You Baby, to me... Yeah, Donna Summer and Barry White to me were the stars of that... The epitome. Then there was the one female singer, I forget her name, African American who was sang, had a couple big hits too, but they kind of stood out amongst all the others. HK (01:17:32): I have always appreciated a big voice. I have always appreciated orchestration. I mean Laura Branigan. SM (01:17:42): Oh, she was good. HK (01:17:44): Good? SM (01:17:44): Yes. HK (01:17:44): Yeah, I was delighted when Barry White had his career revived by Ally McBeal, and it was wonderful to hear his music there. But I mean, you and I clearly have overlapping tastes, but we can find people our age, well, maybe not, maybe a couple years younger, who were into punk. Who were listening to the Sex Pistols and The Ramones. SM (01:18:16): Never got into that. HK (01:18:17): Me neither. But those are subsets of our generation, or at least the boomer generation who found their music and whose recollections of the roles music played, et cetera, would be very different from ours. SM (01:18:32): Do you believe, particularly in the (19)90s, we had Chuck D in our campus. I like Chuck D because he was pretty critical of these other rap artists, and he has been, Tupac Shakur and some of the heroes of the (19)90s. Some of them lost their lives, Big Daddy and everything, but that the critics of that music were boomers, a lot of them, who were older. But if they really tried to understand the music a little better, was not a lot of that music about messages too? HK (01:19:03): Yeah. SM (01:19:03): It is just that you could not hear it because there was so much. And of course, today, the way they treat women and all the other things, you can dislike the music, but the messages are there. HK (01:19:15): The messages, to me, it is still a barometer. The barometer right now is for, we indicate as society where, what is the word? It is to my ears, much less civil. It is much more confrontational, in your face. It is loud. And we were, at this point a long time ago, I grew up in a family and in an environment that prize diplomacy, compromise, quiet. I mean, you go about do your business but do not... Rather than 15 minutes and bearing your guts for Oprah or something like that. That is not the way I learned what it was like to become an adult. And so many of the qualities that have been important to me for more than 60 years are not the antithesis, but certainly they are at the other end of the spectrum for what is important now. Now music has, I think, always pulled young people, has pulled listeners from sort of the safe and to a little bit more daring. And whether it was The Flappers and jazz in the thirties, for example, because my mom told me she was born in 1910 and how excited she was when jazz was introduced to Holland and her parents' generation frown on what these young women were doing, wearing lipstick in dances like The Charleston. That is the end of the civilization as we know it. And in the forties, the big bands, there were people who said, "no, we do not want our kids dancing to music sung by some skinny kid named Sinatra." So yeah, I think there is always some tendency for young people to break away from the norms, find something new. It is simply to find something new these days, you have to become more and more extreme. You are pushed more and more to the fringes, as far as I am concerned. SM (01:21:41): In the love of music as a person who grew up around the same time I did. Did you also, not only during those times when the singers that we have been talking about in the late (19)50s or the (19)50s, and then of course the rock musicians of the (19)60s, but there were other songs that had messages that may have been called corny, like MacArthur Park? I thought Richard Harris's version of MacArthur Park, I like the words. "MacArthur Park is mounting in the dark.? There is a message in there. There is a song. HK (01:22:16): There is. SM (01:22:18): And I always think of times when I went with my parents to parks when my parents are gone. HK (01:22:24): But you are also aware that that song has been consistently voted but the worst rock record of all time. SM (01:22:30): I did not know that. HK (01:22:31): Yeah, yeah. And Richard Harris's version, because the Donna Summer version gives it a little bit more life, but "left a cake out in the rain?" I mean, what the hell was he talking about? SM (01:22:41): Yeah but the guy who wrote that was, what is his name? He was actually said... Jim Webb. HK (01:22:45): Jim Webb. SM (01:22:46): Yeah. And I had his album. HK (01:22:48): Who also wrote some very good stuff. SM (01:22:50): Do you have his album of Jim Webb sings Jim Webb? HK (01:22:54): If I did, it is at Maryland. SM (01:22:56): It was an orange cover and it did not sell very much. And all I know is, but a lot of the songs, Simon and Garfunkel's music was just full of messages from Bookends, "Old friends. Old friends sitting on park benches like bookends." And of course, even the movies of that era always had theme songs. I remember Liza Minelli and Wendell Burton in the movie... I forget, but the song was, Come Saturday Morning. HK (01:23:28): One Flew Up the Coop Nest. SM (01:23:31): Yeah, yeah. "It Comes Saturday." HK (01:23:32): No-no, not One Flew up the Coop... SM (01:23:34): No, that is Jack Nicholson. Sterile Cuckoo. HK (01:23:38): Sterile Cuckoo. The cuckoo part I remembered. I just got the wrong... SM (01:23:40): That is real (19)60s because she is off at college falling in love with the Wendell Burton. But that song is "here come Saturday." I always remember that. So there is... HK (01:23:50): One of the qualities of getting older is the willingness to take the time to become more reflective. I mean, Simon and Garfunkel, I listened to them in the (19)60s and (19)70s, but it was not music that you would take to a party. To a frat party, for example. SM (01:24:11): Right. HK (01:24:12): The songs I took to frat parties were Ray Charles, what did I say? Or the Isley Brothers, Shout. Or The Contours, Do You Love Me? Because even in college, I had taken my records with me and I was invited to take them to parties. SM (01:24:25): Well, I know one. I had a very nice record collection at Ohio State when I was there. And I remember one album that some of my friends wanted when they were having a date one night with a girl was Shirley Bassey, I Capricorn. HK (01:24:44): Okay. See that is not something, and there was music you played when you were smoking pot. There was music that you played when you were studying for exams. Certainly the people around me used music. But again, by the mid (19)60s already, there were now so many choices that you could look for, find, adapt music to whatever you wanted to do. In the early (19)50s, we did not have that. We simply had what AM radio was playing and or what you could buy at 45s. I think I got my first LP for Christmas, probably around 19. SM (01:25:35): There was an article that I just recently read, and you may have seen it. And actually, if you go into the computer when you go into your name, you are in that article. HK (01:25:46): That is interesting. SM (01:25:46): But in the article, it says Kent State is part of the culture wars. When people say that Kent State is part of the culture wars, what do you think they are saying? HK (01:26:10): The culture wars in Kent State. Okay. I would go back to initially to a book that James Michener wrote on Kent State in 19... actually it came out (19)71, called "Kent State, What Happened." What was frightening, [inaudible], was the reactions that he got in Kent, Ohio and in the whole state. When his researchers asked people about the events there in May of 1970, there are some things I recall from the book. He talks about protestors at, I think Sandy Shroyer's funeral carrying signs saying "the Kent State four should have studied more" carrying protest signs at funerals. I thought was only that Baptist route out of Oklahoma that did that these days. But this is back in 1970. I used a quote from Michener's book in the set where one of his researchers is now talking to a woman from Kent, Ohio who has three sons who attended the university, who worked as students there. Makes the most sense to [inaudible] about the right place here. But I quoted in the book... All right, so he said, "more than the usual care was taken to get it exactly as deliberate, mother. Anyone who appears in the streets of a city like Kent with long hair, dirty clothes were barefooted deserves to be shot. Researcher, I have your permission to quote that? Yes, you sure do. It would have been better if the guard had shopped a whole lot of them that morning. But you had three sons there. Mother, if they did not do what the guards told them, they should have been mowed down. Professor of psychology listening in saying, is long hair justification for shooting someone? Yes, we have got to clean up this nation and we will start with the long hairs. Professor, would you prevent one of yourselves to be shot simply because he went barefooted. And she says, yes. Where do you get such ideas? And she says, teach at the local high school. Professor Union, you are teaching your students such things. Yes. I teach them the truth. That the lazy, the dirty, the ones you see walking in the streets and doing nothing, ought all to be shot." SM (01:28:33): Wow. HK (01:28:34): Kent, Ohio. 1970. I was following in the Aron Beacon Journal last month, some of the conversations, meetings with the blogs, why does Kent State bother to make this into a big event? I mean, these kids were protesting. Right on. Why are they setting up a special commemorative center, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Those grounds are now what? They have been officially designated a historic site. And there are people who feel very strongly that all of this is wrong. These kids were protesting the war. They were anti-American. So if that fits your definition of a culture war, the differences in opinion that were so evident in that interview in 1970, those differences still exist. And that culture war still exists. It is simply expressed in blogs now. There was somebody in an article that, I do not remember quite how the connection was made, but somebody tried to connect what happened at Kent State in May of 1970 with what happened in New York in September of 2001. And there were people who took loud exception of that. That one was a terrorist attack on the US and the other was a bunch of disgruntled kids. In other words, the politics, the different world viewpoints, et cetera. In that sense, little has changed in 40 years. SM (01:30:31): And I have here that, and I think this is also what is really happening on university campuses today, that controversy can be seen as economically damaging. And Kent State is box office poison. And this was the article I was reading. Because that movie that came out in (19)81 did not succeed, but it was not very well made either on Kent State. But the question I am really asking is if Kent State is symbolic of something that was controversial, like the anti-war movement, what is that saying about, have we learned anything from that period of today? Because if universities are still afraid of controversy, and we know that universities and all colleges are having a tough time now because of the economy we are living in, the world we are living in today, and that if everything is bottom line, the university is a business, but the students of the (19)60s were really challenging the university. That the university is about ideas. It is about preparing students of the world they are going to face. To listening to all points of view that we do not do things for the sake of controversy, but things can be controversial. Had the universities learned anything from what happened in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s and the tragedies that took place on campus? HK (01:32:27): Wow, there certainly is not an easy answer for that. First of all, again, the term universities has to cover so many different institutions and they range from the liberal to extremely conservative. I would not compare the University of Wisconsin to Bob Jones University. SM (01:32:48): Or Hillsdale College. HK (01:32:55): I think that there is... Technology to me makes change that the things that happen on campus are now reported so quickly with a professor says something that is controversial, and it could be a blog within minutes. I mean, somebody could be texting from the classroom. It is picked up and suddenly it is not a difference of opinion between a student and a professor. But it now becomes a point for a talking head on television late in the evening, professor so-and-so said such and such. The next thing you have got a controversy. I think it is much more difficult. I have not been in a college classroom. I was teaching as late as 2006, but when you are teaching for the Department of Defense, you have got a very different environment. I was teaching graduate courses in intelligence analysis. That is a little different than teaching psychology and undergraduate. So in my American studies course, there were times when my presentations of, let us say World War II or Vietnam, were students discrete. I did not see that necessarily as a problem because if they all sit there nodding their heads, you wonder what is happening. And I learned a lot more about what my students were learning when they disagreed or asked questions because then we had to elaborate on our positions. I do not know if faculty today feel more constrained. I think students feel a right to hold faculty accountable. I think that is a (19)70s, post (19)70s phenomenon. As an undergraduate, I would not have questioned a grade that a faculty member gave me unless it was so egregious. But I certainly had a number of students who came and complained about a grade. And in some cases, this would have been in the mid to late (19)80s where parents began to intervene on behalf of their students. That now is a fairly regular phenomenon where you have got the helicopter parents who email a professor and say, how come my kid only got a B or a C? I personally would have trouble dealing with that. I taught one class, I guess this would have been fairly early. It was not, not the entire class was online, but a couple of the sessions. But I have got colleagues who teach online courses where students will complain to a dean if their emails are not answered within an hour. Well, folks, if I were a teacher and I had 300 students and I had computer students who all wanted an answer to a question in the next hour, I would tell them, sorry, this is not going to happen. But these are colleagues who are full-time workers who teach the evenings. And one of the reasons why I do not teach at the University of Maryland anymore is because I said, no, I do not want to work under those kinds of circumstances. Students are welcome to ask questions to interact, disagree, but my concept of the role of a faculty member is based on, my dad was a professor at the University of Amsterdam. Now, when he lectured, he came in academic regalia and his students stood up when he came in. I do not know if they asked questions, but he would present his lecture and he would walk out and they would stand up again. Those days are long gone. Imagine standing in front of a class and for theater, 300 students, and a student comes in behind me, stands in front of me and says, Dr. Keesing, can you tell me what I have missed? The student came in ten minutes late and I simply said, I would suggest that you sit down now. The idea that I am more important than these other 299 students. I want you to deal with my needs first. I simply would not tolerate that and I did not. And so by 80s standards, I was a hard ass. I do not know whether I would survive in the year 2010. SM (01:38:01): The students of the (19)60s certainly challenged a lot of the... They would challenge speakers and sometimes shot them down, which was wrong. I think they had learned that was wrong. HK (01:38:22): Freedom of speech means you say what you want to, but you also let others. In other words it is the notion that it is okay for me, but it is not okay for you. That is misinterpreting the whole notion of academic freedom. I do not recall ever consciously staying away from a topic because I felt it would be controversial. In fact, early on, it would be quite the opposite to that. I think I have mentioned that I was in Vietnam in 1970, teaching psychology for the University of Maryland. I was a young kid. I was what, 26 years old. I had long hair, sideburns. I was fresh off college campus. And six months after Kent State, I was teaching the troops in Vietnam. One of the classes I taught was social psychology, and one of the blocks that I was determined to teach, and I did, was the block on authoritarianism. And what was his name? I was taking a look at his just last night... But the studies on blind obedience where a figure in authority can tell somebody else, you must do this. And then, yeah, why would you do it? Because I was just following orders. I thought, we were in Vietnam. I have got soldiers. And the question that I posed, and I had pilots in class who flew F4 bombing strikes over the north. I said, what you need to do, what I want you to do, is think about what happens if the US were to lose this war, and you were on the wrong side. You were taken prisoner, and you are now brought into a court of inquiry and you were asked to justify why you dropped bombs on Hanoi. Well, those are my orders. And I said, and what happened to the German officers in Nurnberg when they said they were just following orders? This was not the kind of question that my students wanted me to ask, or one that they wanted to think about. This is 1970, there are pilots who have not wanted to really think about that 35 or 40 years later. But to me, that was part of my responsibility as a teacher. That we are not here just to have a good time. I am teaching psychology and this is something that I required them to address at the time in the world. What if we end up being on the wrong side, the losing side, and you have to justify your actions. What are you going to say? How are you going to do it? So to me, that was a requirement of teaching. You challenge. You make students think. If it makes them uncomfortable, then you are more likely to be doing something that is important and useful than if they can just sit back and, oh yeah, this is going to be fun to me that was not teaching. SM (01:41:55): I had professors like that too, and that was good. Can I need your restroom? Just real fast? HK (01:42:04): It is up the stairs... All right, here we go. Music is the soundtrack of my life. So I can give you what was popular in all the reference points. SM (01:42:13): Well, I have a question here which I wanted to ask, which is, in recent years, actors in Hollywood and other entertainers have been really heavily criticized for making political commentaries on whether it be our involvement in the Iraq War, even back in the Gulf War, or things that are happening in certain administrations. I mentioned Susan Saron and Tim Robins are just two of the examples. Jane Fonda, from back in the (19)60s period. And so a lot of people say to these people in the entertainment business, stay in the entertainment business. So thus, I had to ask this question, what about the musicians? And because musicians can write beautiful music, but you might have heard this question before, they should just be entertainers and not be political commentators. HK (01:43:11): The question or that particular view needs to be properly couched and that is that entertainers become the focus of this criticism if the position they take is the opposite of what the people criticizing feel it should be. So was John Wayne ever criticized widely for his stance in Vietnam? I do not think so, because Wayne was pro-America. Do you remember the film, The Green Berets? So was it wrong? Is it wrong for movie stars to become political? Only if the political side that they are espousing happens to be different from the one you feel is important? I do not think that liberal students or common students, I do not know how many boycotted to John Wayne films because of his US involvement in Vietnam stance. Jane Fonda for her 1972 trip to Hanoi is still vilified by a lot of Vietnam vets. If you were in the mall and you saw, not the Park Service Pavilion, but the one that is right there by the Lincoln Memorial Lab, that is run by vets, there are still Jane Fond urinal stickers. That are on sale there. So Fonda was against the war, therefore, she was a politician who was speaking up where she should not have been. Wayne and others were for the war. They were not subject to the same criticism, at least not from those same sources. Again... at least not from those same sources. Again, if there were anti-war students who boycotted Bob Hope or Joey Heatherton, or any of the entertainers who went to Vietnam, for example, as part of USO shows, I am not aware of it. Were they all political? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, Wayne certainly was, it very clear on where he stood. As far as I know, that was never a problem. SM (01:45:31): I know at the very end of his life, he was invited to Harvard for the Pudding- HK (01:45:37): The Hasty Pudding? SM (01:45:38): Yeah, and they were against him. HK (01:45:40): Okay. SM (01:45:40): Yeah and I know that. But he had a good time there, and that showed the Harvard students were a little advanced because they were willing to bring him in, and they had a great time. But they criticized him, but he was who he was, and they were who they were, and they got along fine. HK (01:45:59): That is the point, respect. Expect that there will be differences, and then respect those differences. That not everyone has to think the same way I do, it would be a dreadfully dull world if everyone agreed with you. And it would be difficult to have interesting conversations. But you can respectfully agree to disagree. It does not involve shouting. It does not need to involve confrontation. I disagreed with the war. I remember spending a moratorium day in New York City, listening to Peter, Paul and Mary, walking up Fifth Avenue with Shirley MacLaine, ending our walk at the UN building where the cast of Hair sang "Aquarius, Let the Sunshine In." So that must have been October 1969. But I was prepared to go to Vietnam. It was a war I disagreed with. I had no antipathy toward soldiers. My own thought was, "I can be more effective teaching and getting across my views of war and obedience, et cetera, as in the example I mentioned, in Vietnam, than standing and shouting and being in the US and protesting." So it was a conscious decision. I knew when I signed up at the University of Maryland that a condition of employment was that I would teach at least one turn in Vietnam. And it took getting my head together. But I said, "All right, I will be there to teach, not to proselytize." My hair was long. I found myself in a confrontation the second day I was at the base where I was stationed. I was in the officer's club, I had just had dinner. I was confronted by a pilot who had had too much to drink, and he walked up to me and sort of in my face, said, "What do you think you are doing here, [inaudible 01:48:28]?" And I said, "Sir, I am having dinner." " What is that shit on your face?" And I said, "Oh, I guess you are referring to my sideburns." Tried to deescalate, if you will. And before it could get nasty, I mean, this whole group had gathered around us. And at some point, the group parts and the base commander, bird colonel comes walking over and says, "What is the problem here?" And I said, "No problem, sir." And it broke up very quickly. But the next morning, I was called into the education center, and my boss there, the education advisor said, "People understand you were in a fight last night." And I said, "Oh yeah." "Well, was there trouble at the officer club?" And I said, "I would not characterize it as that, but this is what happened." She says, "Well, I got word from General Clay, head of the Air Force in Saigon, and he has instructed me to tell you that you have got to get your hair cut, shave off your side burns." And I said, "No, ma'am. I cannot believe that that is the case." Said, "Well, I want you to cut your hair." And I said, "Well, let me think about it." So I had not even taught my first class yet. That evening, I walked into my classroom for the first time with my roster, my helmet, and my flak vest, which had been issued at the same time. The first thing that came up was, "Mr. Keesing, do not get your hair cut." What is this all about? Something happened the night before, have not even met these students, but this is a small base and there were not many civilians. The first thing my students said was, "Do not get your hair cut." Because I represented the outside coming in and I guess the antithesis of the authority, and they were on my side. I had not even opened a book yet. So I was conflicted, but I did not, I did not go and get my hair cut short or shave my sideburns off, and I have got plenty of photos to prove that. Again, to make a long story short, four months later, I had taught what I thought were a couple of really good classes. As I am walking from the post office back to my trailer across this open field, there is an officer coming my way and he is wearing eagles. So as we pass, he stops and says, "Are you Mr. Keesing by any chance?" And I said, "Yes, sir." He came over and he reached out and he said, "I just want to tell you, I have heard nothing good things about your teaching." To me that was justification. SM (01:51:27): Wow. HK (01:51:27): In other words, it may have taken four months, but there were a sufficient number of people who had gotten beyond the haircut and the sideburns and who were aware of what was going on in the classroom. So that this colonel, and I very much appreciated him at that point, said, "I have heard nothing but good things about your teaching." Because that is what I was there for, not to be a one-man protest. So that really made- SM (01:51:54): Great story. HK (01:51:55): A huge difference for me. In terms of confidence, and I am doing this the right way. Not being easy, not staying away from subjects, not sort of hiding behind words, but teaching is challenging, confronting, getting people's heads involved. SM (01:52:15): Yeah. HK (01:52:15): It was a great place to have to do that and to get, as it turns out, positive reinforcement. SM (01:52:21): That is a great story. HK (01:52:24): It is certainly one I will remember. SM (01:52:25): Yeah. That is a great learning lesson too. These are just quick responses. What do you think are the greatest anti-war musicians, in your opinion? HK (01:52:38): During the time of the war? SM (01:52:39): Yeah. I am basically referring to the time when boomers were young, which could be any time even in the (19)50s. So I am talking about the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s, basically. HK (01:52:51): The most powerful songs were people like Phil Ochs. SM (01:52:57): Yep. HK (01:52:57): Tom Paxton, Seeger. They were the folkies. They were not the most popular, but when you listened to some of the Phil Ochs songs, for example, the messages are very, very clear. The most powerful voices now are the vets who are writing about the battles that they fought, the buddies who were killed, the problems that they have had. Again, I am quite well-informed about World War II music and I have not run across a single World War II song by a veteran that says anything. I mean, they just do not exist. Vets of World War II did not write music, did not express themselves in music. So this is a completely new phenomenon. Same thing true for Korea. The popular artists who are best remembered are probably Creedence Clearwater, Fortunate Son, Run Through the Jungle, Who Will Stop the Rain. A series of songs by Crosby, Stills and Nash with Young, including Ohio, Teach Your Children, Find the Cost of Freedom. These were a little bit later. These were early (19)70s songs. Who would have a body of music? I mean, as we move up from the early (19)70s to in the (19)80s, people will associate Springsteen with, whether it is "Born in the USA", his remake of "War." Springsteen, has at least a half dozen or so songs which are relevant to the Vietnam generation of boomers. Although Springsteen may be a little bit post war. Joan Baez has a few Vietnam related songs, but she is more closely identified with civil rights. Peter, Paul, and Mary were involved in every social concern of the (19)60s. So they have, again, folk music, folk artists that there were not many pop artists who did not have any significant body of work that relates to John Lennon, obviously. SM (01:55:48): Right. "Imagine." HK (01:55:50): "Give Peace a Chance", "Happy Xmas (War is Over). And some Beatles songs have been associated with Vietnam. But I think that that is a bit tenuous. Was "Revolution" about Vietnam? No. Could you apply it to Vietnam? Maybe. SM (01:56:13): This leads me right into civil rights. HK (01:56:18): Okay. SM (01:56:18): The singers that you felt were the best in this area. You have mentioned Joan Baez. Would Nina Simone being there too? HK (01:56:28): Nina Simone was certain a voice for Blacks. But I do not think Nina Simone had a very high profile, let us see, on college campuses. And a lot of the folk oriented, whether it was Peter, Paul, and Mary, the Limeliters, I mean, folk groups like that sold albums because they were popular on campus. Nina Simone, a powerful voice, but not one that would be quickly associated with. James Brown had some very strong language. "Say out loud, I am black and I am proud." But again, civil rights, I think Joan Baez, Peter, Paul, and Mary, Pete Seeger, these were the people that you saw at demonstrations. These are the people whose voices, whose songs were sung. SM (01:57:32): Mahalia Jackson, would she be in there too? She was at the March on Washington. She was the female singer. HK (01:57:38): She was, and this may be where my perspective is too narrow. I was on campus and I saw civil rights primarily through the lenses of a student on a college campus. And therefore, I not only saw it through those lenses, I heard it primarily through college campuses. And as I said, Duke was at that point, a very traditional southern school. So while people in the room next door were playing Peter, Paul, and Mary, I do not recall ever hearing Mahalia Jackson or Nina Simone being played by anyone in my dorm or my fraternity house. So I have got to be careful to say they were not seminal musical figures within my sphere at that time. SM (01:58:37): I think a group that was very popular, because I know I saw them in 1966, was Little Anthony and the Imperials. And they were singing on white campuses, predominantly white. And back then, of course the lead singer had an unbelievable voice. HK (01:58:50): But Little Anthony, I do not know any songs that he recorded or sang in concerts that would have any civil rights overtones that could be considered in any way political. There was "Tears on My Pillow", "Shimmy Coco Bop." Good songs, but not ones that would- SM (01:59:17): Right. HK (01:59:20): The Limeliters or the Four Preps. I mention them because they sang about Vietnam in a humorous way. So there was a political message, but it was couched in such a way that you could choose to ignore it. You could enjoy the music without being caught up in the politics. SM (01:59:40): How about Diana Ross when she originally split from the- HK (01:59:43): Supremes? SM (01:59:44): Supremes and she "Ain't No Mountain High" enough. I mean, I love the words in that, and I was trying to figure if there was any meaning in the "Ain't no mountain high." Of course, that is the song that everybody identifies with her when she first made the split. And the other group that was very popular in college campus, the Chambers Brothers. And they are the time- HK (02:00:02): "Time has come today." SM (02:00:04): Time. Unbelievable. They were big. HK (02:00:09): That is post my experience. And I come back to the notion that if there is, beginning in the late (19)60s, there was a much greater ability to self-select. In other words, who were you going to listen to? You were not limited to a single one or 2:00 AM stations. College campuses was still a fairly homogeneous group of artists who were being invited because they were selling tickets. But I guess it would depend on what campus you were on. Duke was not a coffee house. So we had the Serendipity Singers, we had a couple of black groups, The Chiffons, but I do not recall any music. I graduated in (19)65, that had political overtones. Now I think that could well have begun changing. That is a difference. Let us say between a Bill Cosby and a Dick Gregory to Black comedians, artists. You would get a very different experience depending on which of those two would appear on your college campus. Duke would have been much more inclined to have a Bill Cosby, I think, than I think Gregory, at least at that point. Now, it was also amazing. My first time back after graduation was 1970. And I went to the maternity house and where five years earlier it had been beer and whatever you bought at the ABC store, it was mostly pot. In five years, the cultural climate had changed tremendously. A year later, the fraternity went off campus. Because the national did not allow them to pledge blacks. It was a fraternity with southern roots. And so that particular group decided that if we cannot invite anyone we want, then we will distribute themselves from the next. So Duke went through some very, very big changes in the late (19)60s. And I left really at that transition point to the transition between relatively apolitical and politicized in (19)65. The war was still often some far off place. And Cuba, as I said, was more the focus that people did not know where Vietnam was. Beer, pot had not yet made its way onto the college campus. So there was a sea change in the mid (19)60s, and I was a graduate student at GW living at home, commuting to my classes. And that is a very different environment within which to sort of keep up with what is going on. I was not into dorms. I had a part-time job. I was working, trying to do graduate birth. And so for those two years in Washington, I was in a very different environment. And those were pretty critical years itself. (19)65 to (19)67, I was in DC. And then in (19)67 I continued my graduate work in New York. And that again was a completely different environment and community. SM (02:03:40): How about the women's movement singers that kind of identified with that? I only mentioned one in particular, Helen Reddy, "Because I am a woman." And that was, we are talking the (19)72 to (19)76 period with that. And another singer at that time was Anne Murray, who was very popular. And Olivia Newton John came out around then too. So they were all three of those then. And those were three very popular female singers at the time with hit after hit after hit. HK (02:04:13): Although I am more inclined to pick out songs and pick out artists because they were very few women who would be seeing, it would be, I guess the (19)80s before you had Holly Ne and Meg Christian. Holly Near was in concert with Ronnie Gilbert, the Weavers. And they did a show which had strong feminist roots and overtones that when I was trying to teach students about some of the issues, I mean politicians like Bella Abzug, writers like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan. But I had to pick out individual songs. I mentioned The Exciters, "Tell him." SM (02:05:10): See, I had never heard of them. HK (02:05:12): Well- SM (02:05:12): Oh, I heard that song. HK (02:05:19): "Tell him right now." SM (02:05:20): Yeah. HK (02:05:21): So it is, "You girl, need to take charge of your own life. Do not wait for him to ask you. You ask him." I thought for the most important songs was Loretta Lynn "The Pill." You have, what is it? You something. You have set this chicken your last time. Now that I have got the pill. I mean, Loretta Lynn was pregnant with her first child when she was 50 or 60. And somewhere in the early 70s, her song of her declaration, it ain't going to happen anymore, is "The Pill." And to me, that was a song which pulled it all together. Now, she was criticized by country audiences did not like it, but this was a personal statement on her part. What other songs would I include? Because it is one thing to pick on music where a man has written words that a woman is to sing. How much authenticity was there in Diana Ross's in the Get? Not Diane Ross Love Child, it is Diane or Diana Ross singing about implying that she was one of these and now she does not want to become the mother of another love child who has nothing. But did audiences find that authentic? I think The Pill by Loretta Lynn, they could say, okay, this is first story. This is how she really feels. So music that, how much of the anti, where music was authentic versus commercial. SM (02:07:11): A really good song from that period is The Love Unlimited Orchestra. They sang a song about women. We are the carryon, the generation after generation. I had it right out in my car, in fact. I play that. I Love Unlimited Orchestra. HK (02:07:27): Right. I cannot place it. And that is where I go to one of my references. But yeah, it is. SM (02:07:34): Barry White's love on unlimited orchestra. Yeah. But the women singer and the main singer is Barry's wife, who's one of the lead singers in the center. And it is a very good song. How about the- HK (02:07:48): So I guess I would put in that category of women who were influential and whose pictures I showed, what is her name? Bobby King, the tennis player. SM (02:07:59): Billy Jean King. HK (02:08:00): Billy Jean King. Yeah. And so it was okay, but there was, to my mind, precious little music to support. In other words, I Am Woman Becomes the Anthem. But that is, that is still pretty commercial. And I think that was playing with Billy Jean was carried in for her. Yeah. Tennis match with Bobby Riggs, for example. SM (02:08:22): See, I thought you were starting to say Bobby Gentry where she was a singer. Oh, it is Billy Joe. Yeah, she, yes. Well- HK (02:08:30): I mean, women's lib, there were songs about women's lib. One of the most forceful that went to number one was Harper Valley PTA. SM (02:08:37): Yes-yes-yes. HK (02:08:38): Jane Riley the day my mama socked it too. A bunch of hypocrites, et cetera. But you really have to go search for titles there. Maybe. I did not think there was that much Vietnam until I really began looking at it. SM (02:08:54): How about the environmental movement? Because Earth Day was 1970. And I always think of John Denver when I think of John Denver, Rocky Mountain High. And I think another one I think of is Michael Murphy Wildfire. Those are the two, when I think of the environment, I think of those two. HK (02:09:11): Whose garden was this, which I think is Tom Paxton. SM (02:09:14): Okay. HK (02:09:15): Or neighborhood, big yellow taxi. They took away the trees and put up a parking lot. So again, give me one second. SM (02:09:24): Yeah. And I am take a break here on this thing. HK (02:09:33): Okay, take a look. So this is the syllabus or the outline for my class. So here we have (19)69 through (19)72. I would begin each class with what I call the chart sweep, which is a couple of seconds of each number one. And that is, that has survived me. That will be on the web long after I am gone. All right, so shift in cultural values. Materialism, Mercedes-Benz. SM (02:09:59): Oh, wow. HK (02:10:00): And door number three. SM (02:10:05): Oh yeah. HK (02:10:05): Moon Landing, Woodstock, Vietnam, Kent State, death of a Beatle, interest in religion, radicalization and shift shifter extremes. Helter Skelter. The Beatles song called Free Charlie Manson. The underside where the Fugs, well- SM (02:10:26): That is what is his name. Ed Sanders. HK (02:10:28): Ed Sanders. SM (02:10:29): Yep. HK (02:10:29): Exactly. All right. And then we get new social concerns. Birthday, very commoner. SM (02:10:39): Oh wow. HK (02:10:39): Mercy. Mercy. New the Ecology. SM (02:10:41): Oh yes, that is right. HK (02:10:42): Rachel Carson. John Denver's version of whose Garden Women's Movement. Okay. I am Woman, the pill, unborn child. SM (02:10:51): C as in cross. HK (02:10:52): Anti-abortion. SM (02:10:52): Yes. HK (02:10:53): So Vietnam, winding down, Watergate, Morays in transition, the streak. Sex, drugs, rock and roll. Love to Love You babies on there. Welcome the Wild Side, Lou Reed. So these are my topical songs that I use. Disco sounds called The Decorative Excess and Self-Indulgence. Disco techs. Studio 54 YMCA. SM (02:11:20): Village People. HK (02:11:21): Yeah. SM (02:11:24): Yeah. HK (02:11:24): TV Ford. SM (02:11:27): Very Shaping. HK (02:11:28): Yeah. Sounds the past. This is the oldies guy. SM (02:11:33): Any Native American. I mentioned Bill Miller. Course, he does not have any hits. But he is a real popular Native American singer. And the other one was, I think America, the song America, the Horse With No Name. And then- HK (02:11:54): Yeah, the Group America Where the Horse, yeah. SM (02:11:55): Yeah. HK (02:12:01): Late (19)40s. This begins to get into it. I began with cowboy culture, the qualities of heroes, the cowboy, hoppy Jean and Me, Happy trails. Differences from the Midwest to country music. Wow. Black music, unless it conforms to white standards. So baseball role models television. Right. There is Arthur Godfrey slap her down again, my gosh. Fighting the Red Menace. And then next thing you know, we are in the early (19)50s, and so this is where I began playing portions of every one of the songs. Korea, TV. Here we go, teaching conformity. How do duty time? How do you do these dos and do nots? Ducking cover drills. SM (02:12:55): Dennis the Menace. HK (02:12:55): Good versus bad. Dennis the Menace, open up your heart. Religion and how important- SM (02:13:01): Winkler's house party just passed away. HK (02:13:03): Yup. And their impact on the elections, baseball- SM (02:13:09): Wow. HK (02:13:10): McCarthyism, country music. And then rhythm and blues, sex, drugs, rock and roll. And then here is where we begin to get old role models replaced from Eddie Fisher for Christmas to the Wild Ones and black then Trousers. And so this is how I taught American history and values. And here we get rock and roll and youth culture, juvenile delinquency with all of the stuff in between. So as you can tell, music becomes the- SM (02:13:45): Yeah, I even broke it down here, Latino issues. I think of when I think of that, I think of Jose Feliciano. If there are any- HK (02:13:56): The first Latino artist, rock and roll artist was at least, and if you go by the historians, Richie Balans with La Bamba and Right. That would be the first one. But until you get folks like Ricky Martin, I was never consciously aware of, I mean, what is her name? Selena? SM (02:14:22): Yeah. The one that died? HK (02:14:23): Yeah. Again, it was not music that ever appealed to me. It was not music that I had listened to. So it is one I would call the sub-genres, the niche musics that I am sure was very popular for some artists. But you can only listen to so much. Or I, let me put it this way, I chose to only listen to so much. And I chose things that connected me. I listened to Credence Clearwater, because that was late (19)60s. That sounded like mid (19)50s. And I listen to Bob Seger because that is early (19)80s that reminded me of Rock and Roll and John Mellencamp. Those are the musicians whose music is closest to what I consider my music. So there, there is worlds and worlds out there that I personally cannot relate to that that may have played as important a role in somebody else's life as this music played in life. SM (02:15:24): Well, you mentioned earlier, you already mentioned a lot of these people, but these people all really influence the boomer generation, the folk singers. Unfortunately, Phillips did not live very long, but took his own life. But Phil Ochs, Arlo Guthrie, these are popular on college campuses too. Pete Seeger, Melanie, Richie Havens, Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell, Laura Nero, who is I think unbelievable. Leonard Cohen. Still going strong. HK (02:15:50): Yep. SM (02:15:51): Of course, Joan Baez and I got Holly New here, Peter, Paul, and Mary, Donovan. And I think one of the songs that I really love about Elvis was in the Ghetto in the beginning, because I could listen to that all day long. And he started giving Soso messages and his music in the ghetto. And so these were all had an influence on me. And I am very fortunate to have seen all of these people, except I never saw Peter, Paul, and Mary. But I have seen all the rest of them. But I am very fortunate to have seen them live. These are just some, are some of the general questions I ask everyone now. These can be really fast. Just share your thoughts. HK (02:16:38): I am not used to, well, you can see that I am happy to talk for as much time as you will give me. SM (02:16:40): Well, yeah. Actually my interviews have actually been, all of them have been fairly long, with the exception of, because what has happened is we get into a lot of things and people say, well, we can go on. And I narrow these down though. But describe the following years in your own words, as a person who is affiliated with the boomer generation, I consider you part of it because I would concern anybody after 1940, really pre-boomers. But when you think of the years 1946 to 1960, forget the music. What does that period mean to you overall? HK (02:17:16): My first memories were 1946, my first ride in the car in Holland, that with his work for the government, had occasionally had access to a car. And my parents were looking for a place because our home had been bombed and they were. So I was farmed out to friends. And right before Christmas (19)46, they had evidently found a place and the dad came and picked me up in a car and there was a Christmas tree in the back. And I was three years old. That is the first thing I remember. I was in Holland from (19)46 until (19)51, going to school, learning about socialization, loving sports, loving music. I still have some of my report cards. It was a Montessori education. And my teacher described me as always busy, always with things in my pockets, always interested in things. So I thought, all right. They had me pegged off, pegged fairly early on. And that I am not singing a tremendous change. Going from a seven-year old in Holland and 10 days later, being in a country where I did not speak the language, it made family that much more important. We were a very close family. Meals together, vacations, holidays, weekends. That was true for the next 20 years. So family focused somewhat of an extrovert, and it did not take very long to become what acculturated, as I said, popular culture, bubble down cards, stuff like that was very important. Dad did not feel that TV was in our best interest. So we did not get a first TV until 1960, which is a long time after. SM (02:19:24): So you did not see 1950s TV then. HK (02:19:30): No, not quite. SM (02:19:32): Did not see Howdy Doody? HK (02:19:35): The neighbors crossed the alley, right. But no TV at home. So it was reading. I had always been a reader and still preferred books to publish. So the first couple of years in elementary school here, were adjusting to a different country. I can remember the point. And that would be seventh grade. So- HK (02:20:03): The point, and that would be seventh grade. So four years in, four or five years, in 1956 where I suddenly realized that I was dreaming in English and that I had switched cultures. My parents spoke Dutch to me, I answered them in Dutch, I spoke English with my brothers and with everybody around me. So I grew up bilingual. But in 1957, the dominant language became English and I concluded that from the fact that the soundtrack of my dreams had switched from Dutch to English. Now what is really interesting is I can go back to Holland for a couple of weeks and find myself dreaming in Dutch again. I have been able to maintain- SM (02:20:50): You have not forgotten what the language... HK (02:20:54): In fact, one of the nice things is that when I am in Holland, I get compliments on the fact that after 60 years that my Dutch is still very, very good. SM (02:21:02): Pretty good. HK (02:21:03): Yeah. SM (02:21:04): How about the years 1961 to seven? HK (02:21:07): Well, the most important years would really be from about (19)56 to (19)60. This is junior high school and high school. I look back on those days very positively and I mean, there are people who cringe at junior high and high school, I went to a public school in Washington. It was almost without exception, in fact, I cannot think of, I liked going to school, I liked learning, I did well. Now those are probably connected and I am not sure which causes which. Very active in high school, I ran track in cross country. I captained teams. I was treasury in student council. So, successful high school, had friends, went to parties. Adolescence was pretty easy. I collected records. I was invited to parties, at least it helped, the fact that I brought my carrying case, 45s and I have very pleasant memories. And from (19)56 to (19)60 each summer I can tell you what the most popular songs were. I kept a journal that is illustrated with sheet music and records. So junior high and high school, very positive. I got into the school I wanted to go to in 1961 and I had four very good years at Duke. Learned a great deal, had some excellent professors. As I said, it was still a fairly traditional campus at that point, although, what can I compare it to? But politically, Duke was not all that active. Got out, spent the next five years in graduate school, two years getting a master's at GW, again, a good experience. Three years in New York getting a PhD. Met my future wife and music was there. I took my records with me to school. I played them. I won contests. I established an expertise. So I feel fortunate that I can sit back and if asked, "What would you do differently if you could?" I really cannot think of anything. And there were obviously, I flunked an occasional test, got an F on a paper once. But when I think back, I have been incredibly fortunate. And if that creates difficulty, it is that somehow, I assume that my adolescence, my youth, my experiences are typical and in fact they are probably extremely atypical. Third of four children, upper middle-class family. International, we traveled extensively when I was a kid because my father was entitled to home leave. So every three years we would sail first class on ships like the Queen Mary, go to Holland, visit Europe, come back. I was encouraged to think of these as learning experiences. Dad would encourage us to learn about the currencies, to learn a couple dozen words in each language. When you go to Paris, you try and speak French, you eat French foods, you taste wines. And it took a long time for me to realize that this was not the way most of my classmates were growing up. SM (02:25:30): I am going to give you a test here, right, because a song that was very popular was Debbie Reynolds- HK (02:25:39): Tammy. SM (02:25:40): ...Tammy. What year? HK (02:25:41): The year is 1957. SM (02:25:43): Yeah. HK (02:25:44): Yeah. Shall I pull it out for you? Take me about less than 30 seconds. SM (02:25:48): Yeah, do you want to pull Tammy out. And the other one I have here is Jimmy Rogers and Honeycomb. HK (02:25:53): Honeycomb, right. SM (02:25:56): They were real big hits. HK (02:25:59): (19)71 to (19)74, I was overseas teaching, so (19)70, (19)71 in Asia. But for the next couple of years, my life was very different. I was living for 12 weeks on a military base in a different country. It was have notes, will travel. I had a VW Camper outfitted. I carried a typewriter, I carried a briefcase with notes for my various courses. I had some books with me. And if I taught Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings on Thursday night, I would hop into my car and if I was in Greece for example, I would start going to visiting various places. The car was a camper, so I slept in the car. But for four years I learned a great deal about teaching under an interesting set of circumstances, whether it was in the war or on the air base in Spain, for example, where textbooks did not arrive until the eighth week of a 12-week class that I had to teach a course in abnormal psychology, without a textbook. There were libraries on base, I learned to be self-sufficient. I learned difference between teaching undergraduate students and teaching adults. Saw the world. I learned that I could coexist with the military, which was important because I had military students. I was living on military basis. I disagreed with the war, which was still ongoing. But I tried to make sure that that did not have an impact on how I viewed my students because it would have been too easy to, we can tune them out because we are military and he is anti. SM (02:28:10): But this is a question I have asked everyone. There is two basic questions. Number one, when all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and (19)70s, have we healed as a nation from all of these divisions? Or will most members of the boomer generation be going to their graves not healing like many did in the Civil War? This question came up when we took a group of students to see Senator Edmund Muskie in the mid (19)90s through one of our Leadership on the Road programs. And we thought he was going to talk about 1968 because he was the vice president for running Maine. And he did not even respond in that way. The whole issue of whether, we are talking about 74 million people here in the boomer generation. But do you feel, you, through the music, you have seen it, the music has talked about these divisions and the term, what we call the tremendous divide. Do you expect a nation or a group of so many people to heal? Or is it abort? HK (02:29:20): I do not know. I think the current cultural forces are, again, not to bring together, but to push further apart. That is an emphasis on differences, polarization. And I find that personally distressing because of the way I was raised. The emphasis was on find commonalities. And now we have papered it, any politician who tries to find commonalities is going to be voted out in primaries because Democrats do not, neither side wants to find common ground. Both sides are pushing to differentiate themselves. And to me, this is, now part of it may be Holland, small country, the amount of personal space, far less, always a greater emphasis on what you do needs to be consistent with society, i.e. that the notion of individual liberties are valued less than doing something for the common good. Again, I think that is a trend which is going in the wrong direction, that there may be an overemphasis. I think that we could get a whole lot further if there were more emphasis on common good as opposed to what is in it for me. SM (02:31:02): What did the Vietnam War teach you as a person? HK (02:31:08): It forced me to reconsider. It is very easy to be against the war when you are on campus and you are in a very safe environment, an environment that was very far removed from the realities of war. But, my lessons on war, were learned from my parents because they had lived through the Second World War and they remembered the First World War. Dad was not a pacifist, but he was certainly, he was wary of, I mean, he knew what war was like having lived in an occupied country. He had been jailed by the Germans. We were very lucky that we escaped alive. So there was nothing glorious. There was nothing positive. We see war films that there is nothing heroic about, but war is nasty. And dad would say one of the reasons that many Americans seem to have different attitude is, if the US had ever been invaded, and if the US had ever been occupied, then there might be a far lesser tendency to get involved in wars. That it is easy to support wars at a distance. And one of the big changes of course in the US was when the war in Vietnam, was brought home on television. When Americans began seeing death and destruction and villages being burned and people being shot. Those images to my mind, cannot help but change how you feel about a war. And so there is still people who argue that it was the TV and the media which turned country against war. Well, I do not see how a country could ever be in favor of war. You may support ... World War II was different, but to be in favor of war to me just does not make sense. It means you do not really understand what war is all about. Because having been in one, I do not think you would ever want to be in another one. SM (02:33:41): Coming from another country, but coming by the age of seven, as you even said earlier, you felt like you are America now as opposed to being in Holland. What are your thoughts on the boomer generation? What have been your thoughts throughout your lifetime when you were growing up with them, when you saw them on college campuses, not only those who served in the war, but those who were against the war, and then many of them did not do either, but did you have any perceptions about this generation of 74 million people? What were their strengths? What were their weaknesses? Can you do that? The people that you have known who are boomers? Some people say they cannot talk about 74 million, but they can only talk about the people they have known or seen, and then they are not afraid to talk. Yeah, just your thoughts on them. HK (02:34:37): It requires stepping back. I mean, boomers are simply the people I grew up with and the boomer generation lived at a time when I was alive and they were experiencing the things that I was experiencing. So it is easier for me, especially as an academic, to take a step back and talk about Gen X because that is not me. And I can look at them- SM (02:34:58): Born after (19)65. Yeah. HK (02:35:02): ...And I have spent considerable time looking at generational differences in terms of how they impact, let us say business. I have taught generational differences. I train now, corporations to understand why there may be difficulties when you are working with people whose experiences are so different. SM (02:35:24): Oh yeah. HK (02:35:26): Try working for an intelligence agency when the new people coming in expect to be able to bring in their PDAs and to text and to tell people about what they do, which is the exact opposite of the whole culture of, "No, you have a security clearance and therefore you cannot talk about what you do." So I studied that from a more or less subjective point of view. I supervised for many, many years and had to learn that you need to deal differently. But my expectation by and large was when you come to work for this organization, you have to go more than halfway to adapt to it. I mean, there are certainly new technologies. I was an early adapter of computers and there were people who were in government when I left in 2006 who were still not using computers. But I do not text. My cell phone is a jitterbug. I do not keep it on. Our daughter still does not understand how we do not want to be totally connected to everyone at all times. I am much more private in that. So when I look back on our generation, I think we have had incredible opportunities. The changes in technology, to me, the most important change is when I discovered the internet as a research tool. And I have made full use of that. But are we a great generation? It is not something I thought about. It may be interesting. I am helping plan my high school's 50th reunion next year. We have not met as a class since our 20th, so it will be 30 years- SM (02:37:25): Wow. HK (02:37:25): ...Between contacts with my high school classmates and just getting together with these folks may give me a perspective that I do not have right now. We certainly were more different from our parents than our parents were from their parents. So there were major changes that took place in the mid (19)50s. As I said, youth culture, youth was discovered by advertisers, by record companies, that there was this new market. And once that new market was discovered, who had to be treated differently. But how do I set myself apart? I do not know. SM (02:38:27): Well, one of the things is, I always ask too, a lot of boomers felt they were the most unique generation in history because when they were young, there was this positive feeling that they were going to do the change agents for the betterment of society, that they were going to end the war, sexism, homophobia, they were going to change the world from peace to love. Well, obviously that has not happened. And I have actually had some strong criticism of this generation from many different directions, although, and others really just praising it up and down. HK (02:39:04): I think that that is an expected conceit, that our generation is the best. We are the best. I certainly encountered this and you have been at the classroom long enough that for college-aged students, for many history begins at the point at which they become involved. In other words, do not tell me about the 1940s. I am not interested in anything that happened before I was born. Okay, that is the conceit that what you did is irrelevant and the only relevance is what I am experiencing or doing right now. Maybe you need to hit 60 or 50 at least before you realize that that is a little narrow. You begin to appreciate your parents more when you were raising your own kids and your parents become smarter as you get older. So I think a lot of the criticism is based on who is making it at what point they are in their lives. Yeah. Where did I hear this thing? I think my brother, my baby brother who is 64, sent this to me and a report of a conversation at a football game, a couple of college students giving somebody our age a hard time. We are the ones who have done this, this and this and what have the other done. And I think the answer was, "Well, my generation's the one that invented the computer that has allowed you to do these things right now. And what have you invented that has had a comparable impact?" I mean an iPhone or iTunes, these are nice things, but have any recent inventions changed how we think, how we operate, how we direct more so than the computer? So before you get too critical of the old generation, whether it is the boomers or whatever, what have you really accomplished? SM (02:41:21): Do you like the term boomer? This is a big question because I have mixed feelings on this too. What is great about the boomer generation is they can argue about everything and they do. Oh, but do you like the term boomer? It is like a lot of people that criticize the term boomer do not like the greatest generation for World War II or the Generation X or today's Millennials, or the Silent generation. HK (02:41:49): I look at it as a label. I have never particularly cared for labels. I am who I am. And labels are shorthand and sometimes labels become shorthand for lazy thinking. Somehow you can clump all of these people together. Now, boomers, the only thing that boomers share for certain is that they were born in the same timeframe. But beyond that you have got lots of stories that you can compare. But I think that my upbringing, my background and what I did with it is probably very, very different from somebody who could have been born on November 15th, 1943, just like I was. And so the only thing that we would have in common is we were born on the same day, but we were born in different countries in different families. And our experience from the time of our birth to right now has been very different. And so although we are both boomers, we may have nothing else in common except that birthday. So this is why this kind of in-depth oral history, I think you are going to find that you cannot accurately capture by a label like boomers. SM (02:43:10): I have asked the same people, is there a term they would use. And of course the terms that other people have used, the Vietnam generation, the Woodstock generation, the protest generation, the movement generation, they are all using adjectives to describe the boomers experience. HK (02:43:34): Maybe it is authors like you who have to try and put this together to pull out the commonalities and show where the differences are. That just because somebody was born and grew up in this timeframe, it does not mean that we can accurately predict A, B, C and D. The best instance of that occurred to me very late. I was teaching a course on music in wartime for the University of Maryland sometime in the early (19)80s, I think. And this went, the class required me to go back to the Civil War and just using the term civil war in my class, I got some very strange looks. And it turned out that some of my students had never studied the Civil War. They were familiar with the war between the states. And I said, "Okay, let us make this a teaching moment. Where did you grow up, Indiana? All right, what did you learn? Okay, A,B,C. Where did you grow up, Alabama? What did you learn?" And it was two entirely different histories, two entirely different notions of the same event because one person had been born and raised and taught in Indiana from a certain perspective, a certain textbook, somebody else had learned the same time period in a school in Alabama. Imagine what it is going to be like if you come out of the Texas school system a couple of years from now as opposed to, let us say the Massachusetts school system. These people will have very, very different concepts of some very important ideas, issues, et cetera. Were you taught creationism as opposed to evolution or intelligent design? If that is part of your background, that is part of your family and part of your education. Were you homeschooled? Were you taught public schools, probing schools? Your view of the world will be very much affected by what was there. And so the generation you are part of will end up being less important than, all right, within that generational timeframe, who was influencing you? Were your parents college educated? Did you go to college? But those are the questions that are ultimately more important. SM (02:46:09): The word that comes out here so often is context. And what makes this project I am involved in by interviewing people like you and others, is the in depth, not only the complexity, trying to explain the complexity of the times, but that everybody's experiences is unique and real and truthful and genuine. And by doing this, I am hoping to make these interviews into seven sections where there is learning, these are learning. I want high school students and college students to read this book so that I do not have to hear any more that the Vietnam War was before World War II. And I have heard that from, and these are students that had very high SAT scores. HK (02:46:57): Yes. SM (02:46:58): I actually, I had a student, well, I will tell you later, a person who got the highest score you can get in an SAT. She is the one that told me about the Vietnam War. How did she get through high school? I am just amazed. So just a couple more minutes here. Not much. This is almost done. I am not going to go any further. I am not going to ask you about other things. But is there any one event that had the greatest impact in your life? Just one event, a historic event, whether it be an assassination or is there any one event that had greater impact than any other? HK (02:47:37): Yes. And it would have to be the move from Holland to the US. And it was turning my world upside down, at seven years old, you would have a limited concept, but the idea of leaving your country, your friends, your school, and moving to a place where you know no one accept your own family members and where you do not speak the language. So that in retrospect, that had to be the key thing that had an impact. SM (02:48:19): Why did the Vietnam War end in your viewpoint? HK (02:48:21): Why did it end? Because it could not continue. One can come up with Congress refused to fund it. You could come up with we are losing or we certainly could not win. You could argue that by 1972, public opinion had turned so far against the war that politically it was untenable to continue. Probably some of each of those. And did it end in (19)72 or did it not end until (19)75? I mean, you can argue, when did the Vietnam War- SM (02:49:15): It was 1973 when we were holding out. HK (02:49:19): January (19)73. SM (02:49:20): Yeah. HK (02:49:21): ...Or was it (19)75, the Fall of Saigon? But I think America retired, got fed up. Congress would no longer fund. Public opinion had, not 180, but certainly the public opinion had shifted dramatically against the war. So all of those, I think, when you bring them together, spelled an end for the Vietnam War. SM (02:49:50): I have got a lot of those questions, but I am going to end it with this one. And that is being succinct, I think you only got about a minute and a half here. What do you think the lasting legacy will be of this generation? And when I say 74 to 78 million, we cannot even figure out how many were actually boomers right now, but what will be the lasting legacy once the best history books are written, say 50 years from now or when the last boomers have passed on. HK (02:50:16): Can I say what I hope our legacy will be? That we raised our kids well. In other words, that we raised a generation that respects some things that were not respected before. Equality, whether it is in voting rights, public accommodations, that we raised a generation which is more open-minded, more adventuresome, more willing to go out and explore the world. More global in terms of its thinking. And my regret is that right now I do not see that. So I do not think that what we believe we accomplished in the (19)60s has successfully been passed on and is now being taught by our children to our grandchildren. I think it is some of the same narrowness, some of the same generational differences. The gulfs are still there. So have we improved the country? Is the US better off now than it was in the (19)50s? In some areas, yes. But in some ways my answer's no, I do not think so. SM (02:51:35): All right. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Hugo Keesing Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keesing, Hugo ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Popular culture—United States; Historians; Keesing, Hugo--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Hugo Keesing is a Dutch-American popular culture historian, an educator and a pop music archivist who has an extensive collection of Vietnam war music. He has degrees from Duke University, George Washington University and a Ph.D. in Behavior Research from Adelphi University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.74a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.74a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 171:38 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e226f043e72318e859a2733247cff3b.jpg 45a1980a5235a7ed5891da1c07cf1d3e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9c8360799fdab0585b2680ec91092a29.mp3 73a7ef09527a6659392df1e6b673a224 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2001-12-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen MeKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Krissy Keefer Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which related to the martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which combined martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Hippies; Black nationalist; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Global warming; Women's Rights Movement; Kent State; Prison industrial complex; Beat Generation; The Gulf and Tonkin Resolution &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5017,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Hippies; Black nationalist; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Global warming; Women's Rights Movement; Kent State; Prison industrial complex; Beat Generation; The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 82:04 Subject LCSH Dancers; Choreographers; Social justice; Political activists--United States; Keefer, Krissy--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Krissy Keefer Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 December 2001 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing one, two, testing. Again, thank you very much. KK (00:00:08): Oh, sure. SM (00:00:09): And, hopefully, I will be able to meet you because, actually, I interviewed a couple other people like David [inaudible], who lives in Berkeley. And I know David said, "When you come out, I want you to take my picture," even though I have interviewed him already. Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing you think about? KK (00:00:30): When I think about the (19)60s and the early (19)70s? Well, I was actually still in high school. SM (00:00:35): Also, speak up, because this phone of mine is not that loud. KK (00:00:38): Yeah. Well, I was in high school during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, so I graduated from high school in (19)71. So, mostly, I think about the cultural conflict, I do not know, kind of turmoil. It was turmoil, I think, because we were kind of trapped between two value systems that were colliding. The one value system was, get good grades, go to a school, and be a cheerleader. And the other was, give up all worldly possessions, get stoned, and hate the establishment. It was that explosion that was happening, and I felt like I was caught in all of that in high school. SM (00:01:25): When you were in high school, were you already interested in dance? KK (00:01:29): I had been a dancer since I was a kid. I started studying ballet when I was six. My mother was a dancer, so dance is part of our [inaudible]. SM (00:01:39): So you knew, when you left high school, you were going to stay in that as a profession? KK (00:01:45): I did not know how it was going to take form, but it was definitely my aspiration, my [inaudible]. But I had not built self-confidence around it or anything like that, but it was what I loved to do and what definitely unfolded for me, because I actually was able to get involved with a group of people in Oregon when I was probably 19, so really young, and started Wallflower Order with four other women when I was 22, and doing the same thing since then. SM (00:02:22): Before we start to talk about Wallflower Order, what was it in high school? Was it your peers? Was it teachers? Was it things you were seeing on the news? KK (00:02:34): All of that? I was in Cincinnati, Ohio, so I was really drawn to, and was one of the personalities in my high school that very much identified with, being a hippie. But I was in the suburbs in a rather affluent neighborhood, trying to be a hippie in that situation where suburb culture, everybody was smoking pot, listening to music, and becoming a hippie through looking at Life Magazine and listening to the news and sort of watching the anti-war movement, but not really necessarily being a real part of it. So it felt rather peripheral, but important. I was a peripheral player, but it was important for me. And when I talk to people my age, we all say we would rather have lived through the (19)60s than be young now. I actually feel sorry for people who had their maturation process take place during the Reagan era and later. SM (00:03:47): Yeah, describe that, because certainly growing up being young under Reagan, or even Bush? KK (00:03:54): Well, I think, actually, in a way, Reagan's era was more destructive because I feel like the ideological goal of Reagan's reign was to destroy the value system that we created in the (19)60s, which was less is more, and drop out from the rat race, and try to find a sense of peace and brotherly love, and try to get some kind of social justice for the black community and women and poor people. That became the dominant culture. We had a culture. We had a dual power culture operating in the United States that everybody was tied into so that my mother could sing along to Jefferson Airplane songs because our music and our culture is very tightly woven, and it kind of dominated the era. And I think what Reagan did, the goal of that was to undermine that and put [inaudible] personality back at the center, definitely destroy the black liberation movement, and start pumping drugs into the black community, and making social contributions seem more about how much money someone had rather than what they had for contribution. For example, someone like Jackson Brown or Bonnie Raitt who were not... Jackson got more political, but Bonnie Raitt, for example, or somebody like that who was not necessarily political could generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for a benefit for somebody who was working on more a grass roots level like myself for Holly Near that is not generating anywhere the same amount of money, you started to feel maybe your contribution was less significant or less [inaudible] able to participate in that kind of way. And so I felt like all of our contributions, our kind of collective conscious and sharing of resources, all of that, that is what they undermined. And everyone started buying into borrowing money and liquidating their own kind of more political, deep social justice aspirations. SM (00:06:24): Kris, could you speak up just a little bit, too? KK (00:06:26): Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (00:06:27): Okay. Thank you. When you hear, and I know you have heard it, but I have for many years, these commentators, many of them conservatives, I am not being biased here, but many conservatives who will say that all the problems in the American society today can be placed blame on that period when Boomers were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Basically, I know they are making reference to the sexual revolution, the breakup of the American family, the drug culture, the divisions between black and white, the lack of respect for authority, the victim mentality that many people see in our society. And I remember there has even been books written about the Democratic Party was destroyed after McGovern lost in (19)72, and they had to go a different direction because they were identified too much with the anti-war movement. So your thoughts on those critics who blame the problems we have today on what happened when Boomers were young? KK (00:07:31): Well, I think that is their point of view, and that is actually a total distortion of what actually happened. The thing is that this country was founded on the genocide of Native American people and the enslavement of African people. That is the foundation of it, and there was never any self-criticism or rectification for either of those social monstrosities. So if you never looked deeply into how we got this land base and got this, quote, great country going, then you do not have any sense of what is really happening. And what the hippies and the (19)60s did is the truth finally started to emerge about what created the wealth of this country and what created our place in the world, so to speak. And I think all of those people... I am never one of the people that say, "Oh, the good old days." The good old days of what? What era are you talking about? So because the African-American population has never been given any economic [inaudible] this country. And that is what the (19)60s revealed is the inequities, not the division started. It was when the inequities were finally pointed out. And then that is what Reagan did. Reagan put a damper, a big clamp down on the black community and destroyed its economic base. So I think those are the apologists for imperialism. That is the white fundamentalist, Christian-based, church conservative movement of which I have family in Cincinnati. Those are my people, too. That is what I am saying, when you get caught kind of in the cross-hairs, the crossfire of two different world views. But that worldview is deeply unfair and inaccurate. SM (00:09:36): Let me try to turn my volume up. Hold on one second. Yeah, I am just going to have some beeps here. There? KK (00:09:43): Yes. SM (00:09:43): Okay, very good. If you look at the Boomer generation, it is hard to state that everybody falls into this category, but when you look at the generation as a whole, what are its strengths, in your view? And what are its weaknesses? And that is looking at all Boomers, male, female, black, white? What do you think were some of the strengths within the generation? KK (00:10:14): I am from San Francisco, right? So I [inaudible] KPFA events. Do you know what KPFA is? SM (00:10:16): No. KK (00:10:24): Okay, KPFA is the public radio, Pacifica. Do you know what Pacifica is? SM (00:10:29): Yes, I do. KK (00:10:30): WPAI? KPFA? Anyway, for most people in their (19)60s, the most radical radio stations on in the Bay Area, mostly Boomer. It is the older side of the Boomers. And then there is all the Boomers that bought into the Reagan era, and drive SUVs, and spend their time skiing, and shopping at very fancy stores, and travel all the time. You cannot really characterize what the Boomers are now, or what they became. They are just a big group of people. I feel that maybe we had a common experience at one point, and some of us stayed true to our values, but many people did not stay true to the values that were generated. SM (00:11:19): Well, one of the things that the Boomer generation, when they were young, thought, and I know a lot of the people that I knew who were Boomers felt they were the most unique generation in American history, and because they were going to change the world for the better they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world. Obviously, we still have these issues, but there was that feeling. What are your thoughts when you hear people say, "We are the most unique?" KK (00:11:51): Yeah, I think that the (19)60s- SM (00:11:51): Oh, Krissy? KK (00:11:51): Yes? SM (00:11:52): Could you speak up a little louder? I am not sure what is- KK (00:11:54): [inaudible] louder. I am talking really loud. So it is either my phone, or your phone. I cannot talk any louder. SM (00:11:59): Okay, very good. KK (00:12:00): What do I think they we are? I do not even to think that is interesting, actually. What would that be? We are talking about what is going on right now. We had a very amazing experience in the (19)60s, but we have a catastrophic environmental situation, and race and class situation right now, and it is much more interesting. What is that group of people doing about this problem, and what is the kids? What is everyone doing about this right now? You could see in Obama's campaign, underlying Obama's campaign was the organizing tactics of Caesar Chavez. Through Reverend Wright, there was a Black nationalist politics that Obama was aware of. There was community organizing. All of those things are (19)60s value systems that have been able to take through. At the same time, he had to capitulate and manage a whole very conservative Democratic Party wing at the same time, not to mention the ultra-right-wing Republican Party he has got to deal with every day. So, at a certain point, that is the whole spectrum that is happening right now. And how is that group of people dealing with the fact that all the polar ice caps are melting? We are in big trouble here. And so the Boomers sit around and pat themselves on the back. Who cares? It does not matter. What happened a long time ago, does not matter. It is what is going to happen in the next five years. It is absolutely essential that people stop consuming, and stop patting themselves on the back, and all of that. I always use the analogy of the co-op. In the (19)60s, the co-op was a small room, and it had a bin of rice, a bin of couscous, some tofu floating in some water, and some vegetables. Now you go into co-op health food stores, they are multi-billion-dollar conglomerates, 50 different choices on every kind of thing. It is sickening. It is sickening. That is where our values, in my mind, went completely south. That is where we, in the guise of doing something great, it is just as pathetic as if you walked into Kroger's. SM (00:14:36): How did you get to Oregon, when you went to Oregon? And secondly, how did you meet up and start Wallflower Order? And thirdly, what was the basic premise behind Wallflower Order? KK (00:14:54): I found out about Oregon through one of my friend's mothers who told me that I should go out there, because my grades were not that good in high school, and University of Oregon said, "If you get good grades in the summer, you could stay [inaudible] go to school here." Well, I did that. I was dancing with a group called Eugene Dance Collective. And out of that, we started the Wallflower Order. And it was 1975, the Vietnam War just ended, and we were a collective. Everybody was a collective. Collectives were sort of the organizational structure that people glommed onto, a lot coming out of Mao and Ho Chi Min and all of that kind of political thought that was operating in Asia, and started a collective like them. So my group was a collective, and Berkeley women's music collective, and all the hundreds of collective stores, and all of that. And we just started dancing together, and did some performances, and got hooked up with Holly Near. Her sister was in our group, and she took us on the road some. And then we just kind of created our own space nationally and toured all over. SM (00:16:05): Was there a magic moment early on between that time you left high school and your experiences in Oregon when you knew, I am an activist? KK (00:16:20): When I knew I was an activist? I was political in high school, so I was always trying to make sense of it in high school. So I definitely was, in 1975 when we started the Wallflower Order, able to say, "I am an artist as well as an activist." And it was always very important in the Wallflower Order that our dances have social relevance and reflect our community, which at that time was kind of the women's movement. The women's movement was definitely our [inaudible]. SM (00:16:59): A lot of people, when they see dance, they think, certainly, it is an art, but they do not always see the linkage between politics and dance. And obviously from the get-go, from your first experiences in Oregon, to what you are doing today with the Dance Brigade, that is the definition of what you do, politics and dance. That is an activist type of a thing, and it is certainly a little bit different. Explain in a little more in detail? KK (00:17:29): Well, from 1975 on, the women's movement was all about your personal life as political. That was a big part. So we would make dance up, say, about being women, and we would also make dances up, about the environment, or we would make dances up about anti-war dances, or we made dances up about working class women. So we were all studying and thinking together. The whole movement was studying and thinking about all these issues about race and class. So we would use the poetry or the writings of feminist women who we considered part of our national art scene, the Holly years. We used that a lot. We used Baron's music. We used [inaudible]. We had a whole bunch of artists, women artists, that we could draw from. And telling our story was political. And then, as we kept going, we had study groups, and then we got involved in the movements to support the war in El Salvador against... We were involved in the women's solidarity movement, supporting struggles with Chile, El Salvador, and Nicaragua, that whole thing that happened in the early (19)80s. We were involved in that. We got involved in the environmental movements. We were involved in lots of different organizations and things that were working on different causes. SM (00:19:04): One of the things about the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement is that women were often put in secondary roles. And in some of the history books that have been written on the period, many of the women shot away from those groups and became part of the leadership of the women's movement that we saw in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. And I know it has become a sensitive issue in the civil rights community and some of the anti-war community, but is there truth that, in some of these movements that took part when Boomers were young, and I even asked... I just interviewed Denis Hayes today, of- KK (00:19:45): Who is that? I do not know who that is. SM (00:19:47): He is the founder of Earth Day. KK (00:19:50): Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (00:19:50): He and Gaylord Nelson, Senator Nelson. And I asked him the same question about the environmental movement in the very beginning as well as the Native American, the Chicano, the gay and lesbian movement, did men dominate? And in a lot of them, they did. KK (00:20:06): Yes. SM (00:20:07): And just your thoughts on if you sensed this as a young person back in Oregon, and then as you came to San Francisco? But, basically, in Oregon you saw this sexism that happened and women had to take the lead on things? KK (00:20:24): What is the question, then? SM (00:20:25): The question is about the movements. Do you think most of the movements were sexist? KK (00:20:32): Yeah. I think we all agree with that. I do not think there is any disagreement on that. And I think the sexism is actually what gave birth to the women's movement. And then I think what happened is the women's movement, actually it is kind of autonomous, had its own leadership, its own culture, and its own social relationships, and all of that. And I think now, for women to try to get involved in politics, and it is like you have not improved enough in relationship to being since 2010. I mean, the homophobia is still rampant throughout the country. There is enormous sexism, not that many women [inaudible] in the government really, not close to 50 percent. In San Francisco, it is very hard for women politicians to get elected, very hard. So, do I think it is improved? Actually, not that much. SM (00:21:25): Wow. KK (00:21:26): In fact, I think a lot of things are actually a lot worse than they were 20 years ago. I do not think we improved the environment at all. I think we dropped the ball on that completely. We dropped the ball on the war. We still have not been able to keep the United States going to war. We have not been able to rectify poverty at all. We have hideous class... When I was growing up, it was one out of 10 percent of the people own 90 percent of the wealth. Now it is 1 percent of the people own 90 percent of the wealth, and it used to be one out of four African-Americans had a relationship [inaudible], and now it is out of three. None of our social movements actually improved the last 30 years, and I attribute that a lot to what happened during Reagan's era. I think that was the goal, to put a brake on what kind of exploded in (19)60s. SM (00:22:18): You make a good point, because I can remember when he became President, his famous two words were, "America's back." And he was making a reference, I think, to the Vietnam War and the breakdown of the military and the army. And he was going to build the military back up again because, well, a lot of the issues from the (19)60s and Vietnam. And then, of course, President Bush, that followed him, said, "The Vietnam syndrome is over." So, between the two of them, they made those kinds of comments. And when I look at those comments, I say, yeah, maybe taking pride in America is what he wanted to see, but it basically a slap of what had been before. KK (00:23:01): Right. SM (00:23:04): How important were the college students in your opinion on the campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s in ending the war in Vietnam? KK (00:23:12): I think very important. I think the draft is why we ended it, because people got sick of being drafted and watching their relatives die. And, unfairly, if you are drafted and you do not want to go, to have to go is completely... everybody [inaudible] that. After a while, so many people died, they got sick of watching it. So I think everybody started to rebel. It was very, very close to home. The fact that there is no draft, who is going is kind of removed in a way that it was not then. SM (00:23:43): Do you think the Boomers have, and, again, this is just subjective based on your experience in knowing people who are Boomers, been good parents and grandparents in terms of sharing what their experiences were when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s? And in terms of activism, passing some of these lessons on to them? KK (00:24:10): Yeah. I am in the Bay Area, so they are the liberal backbone of the country. You know what I mean? I probably have a very different kind of pulse on it. When I see the Boomers, when I am in Cincinnati, are my friends in Cincinnati radical and political? No, they are not. And a lot of them are fundamentalist Christians. So do I go back to high school and have the same kinds of head space that was there? Absolutely not. But is San Francisco and Sonoma and that whole northern California area, [inaudible] people might think like me, yeah. You know what I mean? It is a geographical thing a lot. SM (00:24:53): Good point. Very good point. KK (00:24:57): Probably in Boston, the Boomers are on a certain, same page, and Cambridge, and Northampton, and that. It is true. The liberals want to sort of live with each other, and they create enclaves, but are the Boomers down in Miami, Florida thinking like me? I doubt it. SM (00:25:14): And certainly some of the college environments in different parts of the country may have had different experiences, too. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? KK (00:25:25): (19)60s, okay, I would probably say with the death of Kennedy, probably, on some level. You are talking to somebody who was 12. I am not a historian, so I have not given it an enormous amount of thought. But I would say from Kennedy through the death of Martin Luther King and then Malcolm X, I would say that is when the shit the fan pretty much in terms of people getting out in the streets and all of that. And when did it end? I would probably say, when did Reagan get elected? When did Carter, lose get election? SM (00:26:04): He lost in (19)79, and Reagan came in (19)80. KK (00:26:06): Yeah, there you go. That was the end. SM (00:26:11): And again, this is purely subjective. KK (00:26:13): You have to see what happened, too. What I see happened in the (19)70s, when the Vietnam War ended, all of that energy that was out in the street turned into creating kind of a social change network of collectives across the United States. So people, instead of fighting the government, they started building a cultural movement in the communities. In Eugene, for example, there was the Woman's Press, there were women's restaurants, there was women's bicycle repair, there was dance companies, there was women's trucking collectives. There was women's [inaudible] collectives, there were dance collectives, there were karate schools, all huge amount of collective business, and they were doing social change work by doing that. So the emphasis shifted. We reported, were sharing resources and ideas, and trying to work together. That is what the end of the Vietnam era gave birth to in my opinion. Then, at the end of the (19)70s, the recession hit, Reagan came in, and it was all survival of the fittest again. SM (00:27:29): If I were to have 500 Boomers in the room from all backgrounds, and I am talking about male, female, all different ethnic groups, sexual orientation, you name it, and we were to ask them, "Is there one specific event that had the greatest impact on your life?", what is that event? And I know there would be different answers, but there would be one that would probably stand out. What do you think that one would be? KK (00:27:58): Well, when you would say, "What was the biggest part of our movement?", I would say, the music. So then you might say, "Well, maybe it was Woodstock," but it depends on if you were thinking politically with Democratic convention and what happened there. Was it the riots in Watts? I do not know. It depends on how you were kind of plugged in. The Beatles and the Sergeant Pepper's Lonely-Hearts Club Band coming out, that who Maharishi going off to India, I do not know. There is so many different parts of it, the assassination of Fred Hampton in Chicago. I mean, it is [inaudible]- SM (00:28:46): It is hard to pinpoint. KK (00:28:48): What you cared about. What do you think? SM (00:28:55): Oh, I am trying not to put my opinion in there. To me. KK (00:28:59): Off the record? SM (00:29:00): Off the record, to me, it would be John Kennedy's death. But that is been a lot, and certainly the death of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy in the year (19)68, and Kent State. KK (00:29:13): Yes. SM (00:29:14): I might even say Kent State above Kennedy because of what it did. I am going to read this to you. I got a whole lot of questions here that are specifically based on your career, but this is a question that we asked Senator Edmond Musky before he passed away. I worked at Westchester University. We took 14 students leaders to meet him as part of our leadership on the road. He had just gotten out of the hospital, was not feeling very well, but he still met us. And he, I guess, had seen the Ken Burns series when he was in the hospital on the Civil War. And the students came up with this question because they thought he would respond by replying, "1968 and all the issues in America," but he did not let me read the question to you? KK (00:29:57): Okay. SM (00:29:58): Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, divisions between gay and straight? Divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it? Division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? And let us see here. Certainly, the Vietnam Memorial has helped a lot of the veterans, but the question is beyond the veterans. Do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in assuming this after 40 years? Or is there true to the statement that time heals all wounds? KK (00:30:47): Framing a question is not adequate. We are suffering. The [inaudible] suffering. The Boomers are not suffering. It is our parents' generation who would suffer, because it was their world that was rocked open. They had a certain idea about how it was supposed to be. We ripped the scab off the sore, but it was not a bad thing that we did that because it was a sore. You know what I mean? So your question demands certain supposition. I think it is backwards. I think we were liberated by that. And so I am not suffering. I am suffering because [inaudible] maintain it. When you say that the (19)60s made the division between gay and straight, there were no gay people that were allowed out of the closet in the (19)60s. So it was not like everything was hunky dory. There was a pretending that everything was hunky story. It was a pretending like Eisenhower and that suburban golf course, pill-popping housewife culture was okay. It was all screwed up. There is the trauma. The trauma was not in what we did. The trauma was the inebriated housewife sucking on Secanol, that is where the problem was, the women that did not have any jobs, women who could not work, the women who were only supposed to have children as their only alternative. That was the trauma. The trauma was not me running around without a bra on. Do you understand what I am- SM (00:32:22): Yes, I do. KK (00:32:24): Yeah. So that is how I feel about it. SM (00:32:25): That is very important because you talk about, what was it, in the (19)50s, these 70-plus million kids who seem to have solid homes, father and mother at home, even in the African-American community, the statistics will show that there was a mother and father at home in the (19)50s and then something happened in the (19)60s. But what was it in those times when parents were trying to give- KK (00:32:53): Let us talk about what is marriage. I mean, look at Tiger Woods. Look at what marriage is. Nobody even really wants to talk about what marriage is. What is monogamy? What is the expectation that two people are going to stay together, raise five kids, and are going to have enough money to do it throughout their whole life and their kids are going to go off to college and make more money than they did, that people are not going to get addicted to drugs an alcohol and end up in [inaudible] prison-industrial complex, and all of it. The whole thing is a mythology. The (19)50s was a mythology, and it was actually a very short amount of time. And who was really served by that? SM (00:33:28): Do you think the beats had any part in this too? The beats? KK (00:33:34): Absolutely. The beats were the beginning of the cultural revolution. Absolutely, absolutely. SM (00:33:41): Because they questioned authority and they did not like the status quo, and Kerouac and Ginsburg were such influences? KK (00:33:47): Very important, very important. Here is deal. I do not know how you describe the black working class in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. I grew up in South Carolina. It was virtually apartheid for black people. We had a maid in our house we paid 50 cents an hour. We were not rich. My mother and father had five kids. It was a young black girl that came in and ironed for my mother. She got 50 cents an hour. We drove her home. They lived in some shanty town. There was no economic base there at all. There was whites only everything, on every library, on where we washed our clothes. Whites and blacks were not allowed to be in the same space together. So where was the good old days? Tell me about that? SM (00:34:39): Well, you raised some very good points, and I have heard some other comments, too. I can remember when my dad won trips to Florida and we went from the Syracuse, New York area down to... And we did not have highways back then, and (19)57, (19)58 and (19)59, we stopped at these restaurants and went by these homes, and I kept asking my parents, "Why are these homes so terrible? They are just shacks." And I do not know if I have ever gotten an answer from them, but I tell you, it was a wide-opening experience for someone that was like nine and 10 years old starting to question. KK (00:35:17): [inaudible] swimming. Black people and white people were not allowed to integrate. Blacks whites were never together anywhere when I was growing up in South Carolina, 1953 until Kennedy was killed. So I do not know when... That is what I am saying. It depends on... It is like Howard Zinn. It is like, who is telling the history? You know what I mean? SM (00:35:35): Right. KK (00:35:37): From their point of view, I do not think it was so [inaudible]. Maybe from somebody else's point of view, it is when we all got along. It is not when we got along. It was when black people had no political power at all, anywhere in the United States. Women had no political power. Gays and lesbians had no political power. So did it appear to be okay? Yeah. But there was a rumble underneath the whole thing. SM (00:36:01): Right. KK (00:36:04): It was the, quote, calm before the storm. You cannot go back to that. You cannot go back. SM (00:36:09): As someone said to me when I was asking another scholar, she said to me, "You are talking as a white male. You are talking the way white males may have thought about what it was like in the 1950s, but it was not white females because if you ever really talked to your mom about how she felt, you never heard it." KK (00:36:32): Yeah, exactly. [inaudible], exactly. I totally agree with that, yeah. SM (00:36:39): There is another issue here, too. And one of the characteristics of the Boomers that is often been written about is that they did not trust anybody, and this lack of trust came from leaders that had lied to them. Obviously, we saw President Johnson with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which was a lie. But we all know about Watergate and Richard Nixon. Even in recent years, there has been questions about John Kennedy and his linkage to the overthrow of the [inaudible] regime and the issues with Cuba. Then President Eisenhower lied on U2. Then as Boomers aged, there has been issues within every presidency about truth. And Bill Clinton, "I did not have sex with that woman," and weapons of mass destruction by George Bush. Every president seems to have had something. And the question I am asking is this, when I was in college, I had a professor who told me and told our class that no one can be a success in life if they do not trust someone. And so the question I am asking, is the lack of trust that the Boomers have toward anybody in positions of leadership during when they were young, and that included everyone, university presidents, heads of corporations, ministers, priests, rabbis, no matter who was in position, they did not trust them, is that a truthful statement? That one of their qualities is they do not trust? KK (00:38:09): I think that that was a cultural collective consciousness. I would say that was a collective consciousness. It was also sort of a glib remark at the same time, although it did become a headline, never... do not trust anyone over 30. I would say that it was very driven by youth movement, between 18 and 30, or something like that. But I do not think that Boomers... Trust is the kind of personal sort of... I do not know. I would say the collectively, probably black people do not trust white people. Native Americans do not trust United States government. You can say that about groups of people that have been systematically ripped off by a [inaudible]. I would probably say there is all kinds of groups of people that do not trust other groups of people. And I do not know that, as the Boomers age, that they still do not trust. You know what I mean? I do not think [inaudible] was maybe disheartening, or maybe you, or some people, it is just that the Boomers [inaudible] stay true to their original values. And that is a real heartbreak. Not that they disrupted something, it is that what they have disrupted they have not been able to make good on. And I think that is the kind of heartbreak that is out about Obama right now. Obama, had the values of the (19)60s in his campaign. We were hoping, out of that, that he would take our values system and put it in the center rather than having it be some peripheral concept. And what we are seeing is that the whole thing that happened with Van Jones. Do you know who Van Jones is? SM (00:40:17): Yes, he quit, had to leave. Yes. KK (00:40:20): Yeah, he was forced out, kind of an ideologue, and he is only 40, or something. So for thinking Boomers, for political Boomers, for Democratic Party-plus, Green Party-type Boomers, people who still hold those anti-war social justice issues, they might be heartbroken and disappointed, but I do not think trust is very big. We do not trust, because why would you trust United States government? You know what I mean? That kind of thing. SM (00:41:01): I have three statements here that were at the time that I would like your response to see if they truly define the Boomer generation? The first one is Malcolm X, when he said, "By any means necessary." The second one is Bobby Kennedy, which he quoted the Henry-Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask, why? I see things that never were and ask, why not?" And the third one is actually from a Peter Max poster that was very popular in 1971 when I was in grad school, and the words were, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." And what those three statements talk about is the more radical group, the people in the movements that were very idealistic for the betterment of society, and then you have got more of the hippie mentality. Would you say those three could define the generation? KK (00:42:04): Yeah. I would say that Malcolm X for my [inaudible] represented people that were very political and interested in building a different kind of political government, socialism and all of that, and just doing something really different. Who was in Washington? I would say Kennedy's statement is more philosophical, or perhaps forward-thinking for writing and intellectuals and all of that. And I think the third one was for people who were rebelling by hanging out. People rebelled by just not working. SM (00:42:41): Right. KK (00:42:44): They stopped plugging in. They stopped plugging in, and that became a value and a virtue. SM (00:42:50): What are the photographs that you think... I am going to change the side of the tape. Photography has always been used to define eras and periods of time and events. When you think of the Boomer generation, what are the pictures that you think of when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s? And I am concentrating a lot in when Boomers were young, which is in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s. KK (00:43:23): Well, I think that the child from Vietnam running from the Napalm, I think all the Kennedy assassination pictures, Jackie and the pink dress and the hat and all of those pictures, but those have also been played over and over and over again. I would think the Life Magazine photos of the American people wrapped in the American flag, maybe those were from Woodstock, somebody in America, the way people started wearing the American flag, that whole kind of thing. Photos from photos from Woodstock, to see all people that were there. Kent State, the woman on her knees at Kent State. SM (00:44:13): Yeah, Mary Vecchio. You have you have listed just about all of them. The other one is Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the (19)68 Olympics with the black power fists up. KK (00:44:24): That one. SM (00:44:27): And, obviously, some of the Vietnam pictures too, that were classic of the troops, and certainly My Lai and the guy shooting- KK (00:44:34): The Beatles. I think Beatles played a big part in the whole thing. I am an artist, so I track the influence of art and stuff like that. But the music was very diverse, and everybody tapped into all different kinds of music, from rhythm and blues, to Beatles, to acid rock that came out of San Francisco, to Ike and Tina Turner, the whole thing. Everybody, they are all listing all of that together, and those photos of Timmy Hendrix playing his guitar, for lots of people, that is as big of an icon as the napalm child, you know what I mean? It was all of it was all it together. You cannot have one without the other. It was all hooked up. SM (00:45:26): Would you believe that the social commentary, just like your dance, that the arts... I would like your thoughts, just some general thoughts, on the arts of the period, which you have gone on with your career? But the music, you talked about the Beatles, but I always kind of defined it, and the Motown sound was important. KK (00:45:48): Totally important. SM (00:45:51): And certainly the rock music, and the different types of rock music, and folk music. KK (00:45:55): Totally important. Or, Marvin Gay, Sly and the Family Stone, Diana Ross, pop, the whole thing, I mean all of it. The Coasters, the Four Seasons, I mean the whole thing. That is what was so amazing. It was so much, and no matter which song you hear from that era, it reminds you of a particular time. SM (00:46:22): Did the (19)60s make the music and the art? Or did the art and the music make the (19)60s? KK (00:46:26): No, they happened together. They happened [inaudible] what happens with leftists, with the intellectual left [inaudible]. They underestimate power of art to actually hold and transform [inaudible]. And so they do not give enough credit to it. But I think that Jimmy Hendrix smoking pot [inaudible] broke people open, just like the Vietnam War broke [inaudible]. So it is just everything about what your parents told you just was not true. And how you got there just was all different kinds ways. But lots of people were not in the university. Lots of people dropped out of college, so they were not having the Kent State experience. They only had the Kent State experience through the newspapers. They were having their own experience somewhere else sitting in a park smoking pot, you know what I mean? SM (00:47:23): What did you think of the communal experiences from that era? KK (00:47:28): I thought they were pretty amazing. I think that is what I was saying about my experience with all the collectives all over the country. I felt like we tried to create dual power structure of business, a dual power structure on how to relate socially, how to make money, how to share power, share money, and get something done at the same time. That was pretty amazing and I am really glad I went through it. SM (00:47:54): Let me ask you some question also about the books? Were there any books that were popular with you and your peers? KK (00:48:03): Oh, I do not know. There is all the Richard Brautigan. I am sure I am not kind of... It depends on what era. When I was in high school, it was Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Richard Brautigan, and Kurt Vonnegut, and mostly male writers, Ken Kesey, all of those guys. Then I switched over to the women's movement in the (19)70s, so then it was [inaudible] and Joyce Carol Oates, I am kind of lost right now for all of them, Judy Braun, all the kind of women lesbian poets and writers from the early (19)70s. And then Ginsburg and all those guys had a huge impact. SM (00:48:50): Well, before I ask some questions directly about your experiences in San Francisco and what you are doing now, I wanted you to respond to... You do not have to be long on any responses, but just gut level reactions to these terms or words or people? Are you ready? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? KK (00:49:13): Not very much. I have never seen it, so I do not have a feeling about it. SM (00:49:19): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? KK (00:49:23): Trauma, total trauma. SM (00:49:26): What does Watergate mean to you? KK (00:49:28): The end of the Presidency as he knew it. SM (00:49:34): Woodstock? Summer of love? KK (00:49:39): Transformational. SM (00:49:42): 1968? KK (00:49:44): Traumatic. SM (00:49:46): The term, counterculture? KK (00:49:50): Far out. SM (00:49:52): Okay. Hippies and yippies? They are two different groups. KK (00:49:58): I think they are sort of the same, really. They are all part of the same cultural movement. I know they separated themselves from each other, but it is just that era, a certain era in time. SM (00:50:10): Any thoughts on them? KK (00:50:11): No, mm-mm? SM (00:50:13): No? How about Students for a Democratic Society? KK (00:50:18): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:20): How about the Weatherman? KK (00:50:22): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:24): How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War? KK (00:50:26): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:34): Jane Fonda? KK (00:50:35): I appreciate what they tried to do, very much. SM (00:50:39): How about Tom Hayden? KK (00:50:40): Yeah, same. SM (00:50:43): Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? KK (00:50:45): Yes. SM (00:50:46): The same? How about Timothy Leary? How about the Black Panthers, which is Angela Davis? KK (00:50:55): Far out, yes. God, they had their day. SM (00:50:59): Angela Davis, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, [inaudible 00:51:04] Brown, Stokely Carmichael, that whole group? KK (00:51:05): They were important. SM (00:51:08): How about Richard Nixon? KK (00:51:13): Well, he played his part. That is the heartbreak. Very few people make it to that level of power without having to stop being a criminal. SM (00:51:27): How about Spiro Agnew? KK (00:51:29): I do not have a big opinion on Spiro Agnew? SM (00:51:32): Eugene McCarthy? KK (00:51:32): Yeah, I like what he tried to do. SM (00:51:35): George McGovern? KK (00:51:36): Yeah. SM (00:51:38): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? KK (00:51:43): Rich people. Bobby Kennedy, I actually think really suddenly really got it. He actually was a hero. He really got it, all of it. He got what class war was, but tried to do the right thing. SM (00:51:58): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? KK (00:52:01): Not that interesting. SM (00:52:03): Not that what? KK (00:52:04): Not that interesting. I do not think about them. SM (00:52:07): Okay. Robert McNamara? KK (00:52:09): Well, he is interesting because he turned state evidence, right? SM (00:52:14): Yeah. KK (00:52:14): Yeah, I appreciate what he tried to do. SM (00:52:18): George Wallace? KK (00:52:20): Yeah, another fool of the right wing. SM (00:52:23): Ronald Reagan? KK (00:52:25): Big problem. Big problem. SM (00:52:29): Daniel Elsberg? KK (00:52:31): Good guy. SM (00:52:34): Benjamin Spock? KK (00:52:37): Good guy. Yeah. SM (00:52:40): What about the Berrigan brothers, Phillip and Daniel? KK (00:52:42): Do you realize you have only mentioned one woman in the whole group? SM (00:52:45): No, I am coming to them. KK (00:52:47): The Berrigan brothers? Yeah, good guys. SM (00:52:50): Gloria Steinem? KK (00:52:51): Good. Great. Right on. Good. SM (00:52:54): Bella Abzug? KK (00:52:56): Good. SM (00:52:57): Betty Friedan? KK (00:52:59): Good. SM (00:53:00): How about Shirley Chisholm? KK (00:53:02): Yes, great. SM (00:53:05): Barry Goldwater? KK (00:53:08): Republican, probably a nicer guy than what we have right now. SM (00:53:12): The ERA? KK (00:53:14): Equal Rights Amendment? Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (00:53:19): And, let us see, I guess that is... no more names. And I think the last one was John Dean here? KK (00:53:28): John Dean, you mean the actor? SM (00:53:29): No, no, no. The guy who was came out at Watergate. That move from Eugene to San Francisco, that was in 1984, correct? KK (00:53:46): We moved from Eugene, Oregon to Boston and lived there for a year-and-a-half. And, in that time period, we traveled over to United States, Europe, and we went Nicaragua with a group called Grupo Raiz, R-A-I-Z, from [inaudible]. And we did anti-war work around El Salvador and Nicaragua. SM (00:54:09): One of the things that was in some of the literature I read on the web is they defined you as a politically committed choreographer. KK (00:54:17): Yes. SM (00:54:18): Could you define the meaning of that? And I know what the meaning is, but just to- KK (00:54:27): I am a choreographer, but I consider myself part of the social justice movement. I form and work for... do my work [inaudible] forward-thinking, and they use that. They call me that because it is easy to understand what [inaudible]. For me, I [inaudible] based on the [inaudible] Book of the Dead. I did it about the environment. I did a birthday letter Fidel Castro. I mean, my work is crosses the gamut. I did [inaudible] 10th century, so I have pieces about all those things, but I can get pigeonholed being called a political choreographer. But I do not really care what people say. SM (00:55:24): One of the things, I listed some things here when I read the material. You have what I call spirit in the performing arts. And of course spirit was a very important part of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, too, within the Boomer generation. I think it is an important quality. When did you have that sense of spirit that what you do can truly influence your audience? And give some examples of where your performances, you know that it has really had an effect on people? KK (00:55:59): Well, I can tell when I do a show that it is successful because I would say 95 percent time that I have performed in all different venues all over the world, I have gotten a standing ovation for my work. And what that means is that, at a certain point in the evening, audience and the performance got into a groove together and we had epiphany, or a yes, me too, kind of experience at the end. So I can watch that happen in my work. Then I get feedback and letters from people that say, "I have come to see this show three times. It is really helped me out. It is an important part in my time in my life when I was really depressed, or contemplating breaking up in a relationship, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So it has just been, throughout my career, I have had enough of the same experience to know that it was working on some level. SM (00:57:04): One of the other things too, I look at all the issues that have been involved in your work, the issues you care about, whether it is about class and justice, war, racism, violence against women, even the issue of breast cancer, and certainly people's indifference to the AIDS crisis in the beginning. And I know, I lived in the Bay Area, and I know people out there in terms of the gentrification and the taking away of homes, and that was a big issue when I was out there, and I got so furious as a citizen that people would actually do that. These are great things to put into your work. They are really the spirit of what the (19)60s is all about. And, again, you have what I call, I wish all the Boomers had, a concept of longevity. KK (00:57:54): Yes. SM (00:57:57): And do you find in your audiences, and beyond San Francisco now, that you see a lot of people that are like you? That longevity is very important in terms of making a difference in the world? KK (00:58:11): No, I do not know. Longevity, people either stay true to the original impulse, or they did not at all, or they stayed true to part of it. Or they see me and... When I go up to Sonoma, there is so many lesbians that live in Sonoma. And when I go up to Sebastopol, they look at me and they maybe have not danced in 20 years. They are like, "You used to be in Eugene, Oregon in the Wallflower Order." You know what I mean? There was something that we did then that people resonate with. The fact that they remember me from then means something about their life is still similar to what it was. And I really think that the Bay Area is unique because people go to the Bay Areas so they can live among like-minded people. All the real bashing up of social issues, how you deal with social problems, the best and the brightest ideas come out of the Northern California. And not in Cincinnati. I would ask those questions. If I was in Cincinnati, I would feel completely defeated. But see there, everybody around me, all my women friends, we were all biting up the bit talking about Obama and what he has been able to do and what he has not been able to do, and where the disappointments are, and how we are trying to raise our kids feminists, and how we are dealing with the overt sexuality that is all over the news, the media, that our daughters are having to look at. I 400 kids in the kids program. I have 80 girls in the Girl Brigade. People send their kids to me who are feminist women because they want their kids to be raised in a feminist setting. So I have a very active and very committed (19)60s-2009 life that is very connected to the original impulses there. Our city council in San Francisco is radical. We have the biggest gay lesbian population in Oakland in the whole country. Gay men run San Francisco. It is happening. And we are- it is still living it. We are still living it in Northern California. Also, a ton of money though, and there all is a lot of over-consumerism, I will say that. But a lot of people have the same values in Northern California. SM (01:00:56): Would you say San Francisco... I lived out there and I know how important it is. I felt great out there because just about every issue is discussed. KK (01:01:07): Openly. SM (01:01:07): I mean openly and Jesus, there is a sense of community out there, and a community with a sense of what the (19)60s tried to do, to create a sense of community where people were around people that agreed with them or disagreed with them. Would you say that, when you look at the United States, that San Francisco is the one area that is still like the (19)60s? KK (01:01:28): Yes, I would say so. SM (01:01:31): One of the things that I found very interesting in looking at your background was you did a program called Women Against War after 9/11. KK (01:01:42): Yes. SM (01:01:42): And that you performed in the facility where the United Nations Charter was signed? KK (01:01:49): Yes. SM (01:01:52): Wow. To me, that is a wow experience. Can you explain that? A little bit about that experience? KK (01:01:58): Well, the first thing we did was, the anniversary of 9/11, we did a women against war event because it was when Bush was beating the war drums. And we kind of did it in collaboration with Code Pink, and we had Dance Brigade and Holly Near, and [inaudible] and Naomi Newton, all kinds of women artists I cannot even forget. And then in the spring, right before Bush announced the war I think, we went up to Sonoma and went down to Santa Cruz. And then on the anniversary of war four years later, we did the whole concert again. And these were very well attended events of women, mostly from women's music network cultural things. And they were strong anti-war events to give a voice to women who were trying to think about the whole thing in a very different way. And the fact that it was at the [inaudible] Theater was that much more interesting. It made it have more depth, stuff like that. SM (01:03:17): Well, I tell you, Eleanor Roosevelt would probably have been in the room and giving you high-fives, because this is the 125th anniversary of her birth. KK (01:03:28): Oh, really? SM (01:03:29): Yes. It was the 10th of December is when she was born, 125 years ago, because I think what you do is what she would be so pleased with. I do not know if there is any way you can link up with the Eleanor Roosevelt papers, or with Alita Black, to do something because what you do is what she was all about? KK (01:03:52): Right, yeah. SM (01:03:55): And I would probably have to say that her spirit was probably in the room that night. KK (01:04:00): Yeah. Oh, that is nice [inaudible]. SM (01:04:02): No, I really believe that, because I am a big Eleanor Roosevelt fan and I have done a lot of studying, and we have done programs on her. Oftentimes, the best history books are written 50 years after an event, and of course are a period. Like, World War Two, the best ones have come out in the last 10 years. When the sociologists and historians 50 years from now write about the Boomer generation, what do you think they will say? KK (01:04:38): It is 50 years from now? SM (01:04:40): Yes, 50 years from now? Or even after all the Boomers have passed away? KK (01:04:46): It depends on what happens in the next five years around the environment. I do not [inaudible] talk about them in 50 years so all of what is happening in the world with the demise of capitalism and the disruption of United States' number one imperial power, and all of those things that are going on, on top of the fact that we have no idea if we are going to be able to maintain our food belts inside the United States and all of that. So let us assume that something... I really believe that what happened in the (19)60s was trying to rectify contemporary culture, contemporary history. And contemporary history, I would mean probably the last 500 years of history, the founding of the United States, the beginning of the slave trade, all of that. I would say that last 500 years is contemporary history. And really the hippies, the Boomer generation, rights, and international too, France, they had a big wake-up in France and England, and Western civilization had to really sit back and look at itself. And that was a moment when western civilization had to look at itself in the mirror and the mirror cracked, and we have been reeling from that ever since. SM (01:06:11): Wow. One of the questions I want to ask too, is- KK (01:06:16): That is a good thing. That is where I feel like that was so important that that happened. SM (01:06:25): In my last interview with Mr. Hayes, he mentioned that many Boomers have gone on to take the leads in many corporations as CEOs and all the other things, and there is positives and negatives with what they have done. But the question I want to ask is about universities. The university, the free speech movement, was in California back in (19)64, and I think universities learned a lot from that experience in terms of students and student empowerment. But today, most of the universities are being run by Boomers. And this is my thought. I think today's leaders in higher education are afraid of activists, not volunteers now, because volunteerism is so crucial. But they are afraid of activism coming again on university campuses like it is at Berkeley right now, because it sends messages back that there is disruption on the campus. And when there is disruption on the campus, parents are a little uneasy and they do not want their kids to go there, and they will take their kids out of school. And so they do not want any remembrance of that time, and I think what is happening at Berkeley and wherever there is activism is scary to them, and they are Boomers and they knew about it. And so a lot of the people that run the universities today are both Boomers and generation X-ers, the group have followed them. Do you think universities learned anything from the (19)60s, especially with respect to student protest or activism? KK (01:07:59): Bring in the police faster. SM (01:08:01): Yeah. Pardon? KK (01:08:03): Bring in the police faster. SM (01:08:05): Oh, you think? KK (01:08:06): Less tolerance. SM (01:08:08): Yeah. Am I right in thinking this? KK (01:08:13): Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think everybody's thing is, the (19)60s was sort of unprepared. What happened in the (19)60s, they were not prepared for, and now they are prepared. Now they have SWAT teams. Now they bring them in quicker, they break it up faster. They have less tolerance. When the Boomers took over ideologically, a lot of the parents also collapsed, because they were living in unhappy marriages. They were all alcoholic and drug-addicted. So everybody kind of rolled their heads together. I think now they maneuver much quicker to [inaudible]. So I think that is what is happening. SM (01:08:57): I want to go back to your roots again, because each of these interviews is not only about general questions about the generation, but it is about each of the individuals, too. I know you already mentioned about the influence in your high school, the hippies and all the other stuff, but what was it growing up in Cincinnati in the 1960s and (19)70s, and maybe late (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, that made you who you are? KK (01:09:24): My parents, my mother and my father. My mother has her own wild, very free spirit. And she was personally very liberated on a lot of levels, so she modeled that. And my parents were young, and I do not know. I feel like it sort of was [inaudible] fate, sort of. And I think that I was lucky enough to be an artist, and I have a certain kind of inquisitive mind and a really good memory. So I always wanted to be putting things together and understand what my own... trying to understand myself and my... because, like what I said earlier, I had a rough high school experience. I got into a lot of trouble. It all backfired. I got busted, had all kinds of own personal traumas during that time. I almost flunked out of school. I got suspended all the time, but my energy was not really channeled. It was more reactive. I was very reactive as a kid. And so I feel like having experience on top of the education of what was happening around me, and then going into the collective model, I do not know, I just feel like it all unfolded in a really great way. And I still am kind of a hippie. I identify with being a hippie, and I identify with it as a good thing. When I say I am a hippie, people say, "Oh, you are not a hippie." People have a bad idea about the hippies did not do anything. But what I mean is I am a counterculture Boomer girl. I say that I am on the baby on the tail end. I was born in (19)53, and I was not in college during the height of the whole thing. I was in high school. That is experience, too. I did not have the personal freedom. I still had to be home at 11 o'clock and all of that. I did not have that experience that college people had. SM (01:11:30): How do you respond to those people that say, "Oh, the hippies were irresponsible, laying around, having sex and not really responsible." KK (01:11:39): I do not believe that. SM (01:11:40): Okay. There people that say that. And now the yippies were the more political wing, but they were more into theater. KK (01:11:47): Yeah. I think of the movement. I do not think it is necessary to pick one part of the movement out to criticize. It all supported everything. And even Carter, the whole thing. When we had the energy crisis, Carter told everybody to put on a sweater, turn the heat down and put on a sweater. Reagan came in and told everybody to jack up the heat, work harder, snort cocaine and work 80 hours a week, and get cars in your garage, and zoom, and we went into the lifestyles of the rich and famous. And in the (19)70s, the best movie was... What was the name of that movie where that young boy was in love with that 80-year-old? Harold and Maud? SM (01:12:31): Oh yeah. KK (01:12:31): It went from Harold and Maud into that Michael Douglas film where she boiled the rabbit alive, Fatal Attraction. That is the flip that happened. We went from peace and love and warmth and comradery into psychopathic behavior in our relationships. That was like 1981-82, or (19)86 or (19)87 when that killing the rabbit movie came out, when Michael Douglass did that. And that set stage for the rest of our culture. We never went back to Harold and Maud, and that is what I am talking about. There was a head space that was created and we were not able to maintain it. Some of us still hold it, and we are fighting, basically, a loose battle at this point. We are not going to get out of it. That is my feeling. My feeling is the polar ice caps are going to melt and it is going to be mass migration over six or seven years, like that. SM (01:13:32): If that happens, we are in deep trouble. I got two more questions and I will be done. One is, again, to go back to the arts, you are in dance, of course there is dance theater, there is movies, TV, and painting, and sculpture, and all the other things. What was it about the arts in the (19)60s and early (19)70s that was so unique? And give some examples of how not only dance, but theater and- KK (01:13:57): Everything with the Living Theater was really big. San Francisco [inaudible] Group was really big. There was all of that European theater that was really important. The music, I have talked about the music a lot. The music really held us all together. Then there was all the poetry that came out. There was a lot of... People are really dancing now in a way that I do not think they ever have before with television picking up on it so much. But, again, a lot of it was collective. A lot of it was political. A lot of it was oriented around demonstrations, which is still happening. Every movement has had its poets and its artists, from the New Song movement in Latin America and Chile, and nueva trova, and all of that. So I think every movement has this. SM (01:14:53): And, of course, Andy Warhol and Peter Max were big names in that era with their paintings. You ran against Nancy Pelosi in the primary. KK (01:15:06): Yes. SM (01:15:07): And, of course, she is a stalwart in the Democratic Party. She is part of the established Democratic Party. That took a lot of courage. And when did you decide to do it? And why did you decide to do it? KK (01:15:22): Well, part of the reason I decided to do it was everybody always told me I should run for office because I am so opinionated and he generally talk pretty well. And I have kind of a personality for making speeches and stuff like that. So that is probably the main reason I did it is people kept saying to do it, do it. I learned a lot. I did not really know what I was doing at all. And the unfortunate thing is she was poised to be Speaker of the House, which I did not really get that that was going to happen. So once that became clear, I knew I was never going to get any real traction. And I wanted to raise the issues against the war, and I really thought that Bush should be impeached. I never understood why they did not impeach him. I feel like without an impeachment, you do not have any barometer for justice. That was a terrible, terrible mistake on the Democratic Party not to impeach him. And I have been obsessed about the polar ice caps melting for the last 15 years. So, I raised that in the campaign. That was before Al Gore put out his movie. So again, global warming, war, some people are paying attention, but lots of people are not. So it was very of interesting to have that conversation when people were not really talking about it. SM (01:16:49): Yeah. I had heard rumors that the person Sheehan was going to run against her, the woman who lost her son in- KK (01:16:57): Yeah, Sheehan ran last year against her. SM (01:17:01): A lot of people thought she was going to win. KK (01:17:04): Mm-mm. SM (01:17:05): No. Next to last question, and I am done. Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr are Boomers, and they are the only Boomers that have been in the White House. President Obama is a Boomer. He was two years old the last two years of the Boomer era, (19)62. But your thoughts on when people say that Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr. are the epitome of the Boomer generation? The qualities they both possess, if you knew who they were and how they ran their government and what they did in their lives, ah, they are Boomers? KK (01:17:45): What does that mean? Be a little more specific? SM (01:17:48): Well, it is that they had the qualities that- KK (01:17:50): Is that like a character defect? Is that what you are saying? SM (01:17:55): Yeah, or something like that they epitomized some of the strengths, the qualities that were in the Boomer generation through their actions and deeds. And I just asked that. Do they typify Boomers? KK (01:18:10): Well, they are Boomers. So that is what I am trying to say is I do not think that you can... Well, okay. I would say that Bush had a very freewheeling relationship to drugs and alcohol, which I can say probably has got some, quote, Boomer characteristics to it. When I look at Hillary and Bill Clinton, I see inside of them very much affected by the Hillary and feminists and social justice advocates at one point. I think being the President of the United States is a whole other ballpark. So it is kind of hard to say what is different between Bill Clinton and Barack Obama? Would it be Bill Clinton's promiscuity? Well, Tiger Woods is not a Boomer, you know what I mean? So I do not know what about that, how you talk about that, really. SM (01:19:33): And my last question is two qualities that were defined about your dance brigade, because I am fascinated by the organization you created. In an article I read, and I think it was in the Chronicle, they gave that a lot of your work is because you are enraged and engaged. Could you explain that a little bit more? KK (01:19:59): Well, I think that part of my personality type is I am quick to anger and outrage at injustice. I am a defender of the underdog, and I often do it by getting mad. And people who know me have dealt with that about me. I have no problem getting up and saying what I do not like about what is happening. So that is probably a [inaudible]. And I am very much engaged. I pay attention and I give people feedback. And I am surrounded by lots of people all day long. I run a business. There is 400 kids that come in every week. There is 300 adults. I have seven people in the office, and we are always engaged in talking and making it work. So I am very engaged, and I am a mother, and I have my own friends, and I have a dance company, so I have a lot going on. SM (01:20:49): Is there something that you have not done that you would like to do down the road? KK (01:20:55): Reach enlightenment. SM (01:20:57): Pardon? KK (01:20:58): Reach enlightenment. SM (01:21:01): Are there any questions that I did not ask you, you thought I was going to ask in the interview that you expected? KK (01:21:08): Did you read the C Magazine interview? SM (01:21:10): Did you see the what? KK (01:21:12): Did you read the C Magazine interview? SM (01:21:14): No. KK (01:21:14): Okay, well, read that. Go [inaudible], go to the magazine and read November's issue. My dance company, Dance Brigade, is on the cover. And then there is a really good interview in there of me by Holly Near. SM (01:21:29): Oh? KK (01:21:30): Yeah, read that. And then if you have any more questions, you can call me back. Okay? SM (01:21:34): Great. And what is the magazine? KK (01:21:36): C? Just the letter C. SM (01:21:39): I have that magazine. KK (01:21:41): Okay. SM (01:21:42): I have not read it yet. It is the November issue? KK (01:21:45): Yeah. SM (01:21:46): Oh, you are in there? Okay. KK (01:21:47): Well my dance company, Dance Brigade, is on the cover. SM (01:21:52): Oh, I did not know that. KK (01:21:52): There is an interview, an article with me and Holly Near. So read that, and if you have any questions, call me back. Okay? SM (01:21:58): Super. Well, thank you very much. My condolences. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Krissy Keefer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Krissy ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Dancers; Choreographers; Social justice; Political activists--United States; Keefer, Krissy--Interviews Description An account of the resource Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which combined martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-12-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.73 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 82:04